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Congress May Force Revealing of Car Computer Secrets
marksven writes "The Seattle Post-Intelligencer is reporting that there is a bill with 86 co-sponsors in the House to force automakers to open up their proprietary interfaces to car computers. Small car repair shops are more and more becoming locked out of the repair business because most late model cars can only be fixed by accessing their computers with codes that are secret."
Bill has been tinkering with computers since the age of two. He has been playing with DVD drives on his computer since 1999. Recently he has been unable to watch any movies on his computer running Linux because of the codes that the MPAA has used to encrypt the disc.
"I think it's an illegal monopoly. If you don't have the codes you can't watch the disc."
Yet there's a law that protects the MPAA from having to give this code to the rest of the world. It's called the DMCA. It stops you from circumventing copy-protection.
Why aren't there any lawmakers backing the public on DVD encryption? See here.
Maybe we can overclock them :)
Car companies will just encrypt everything with some stupid XOR scheme, and then claim DMCA protections.
When the MPAA comes a callin' with their CSS encryption, the answer is the DMCA.
But when it comes to open-standards for automobiles, they're all for it.
Why won't they make up their minds?
and gets great gas mileage, even under heavy loads!
I can't believe congress would force car makers to give up their most valuable IP. How would you like it if some guy could just walk up and take your laptop? Woudn't like it, would you? Hippies, as usual, have their hearts in the wrong places. Maybe it's because they're all atheists.
too bad the computer don't run OSS, then the smaller garages would just have to get a computer geek to help.
How to Speak Leet
I used to work for GE Medical Systems, and there was a similar case there. There is (or was?) a company out there doing third-party servicing of CAT and MRI scanners, place called "R-Squared". They took GE to court saying that we should share with them our service tools, because by not doing so it was unfairly excluding them from competing with us.
Ended up having to make it possible for the competition to get our service tools, but I don't remember that we were required to make them available cheaply or quickly. Not sure how things are there today; knowing GE they probably would solve the problem by buying out the competitor.
This really isn't much different than open-source vs closed-source though, is it...if the person selling it wants to lock you out of the internals, well, your choices include not buying from them.
Congress to Automakers: "G1bb0rz u5 j00r l337 c0d3x0r5555!"
This only reason for an open interface is for their plans to install ignition interlocks and traffic violation ticket printers in each car. Soon your car will automatically drive you directly to the police station or reeducation camps.
and posted on the web - like this site
Once they release the interfaces to these car computers, we can install Linux on them.
Indefinitely Detained US Citizen
The entertainment industry (MPAA/RIAA) has lots of money, power and influence.
The automobile indudstry has even more money, power and influence.
The technology industry has comparatively less money, power and influence.
The car companies are already protected under DMCA. If congress forces them to open up, it just means the auto companies aren't bribing them enough...
l8,
AC
We can only hope that the bill doesn't get trompled all over by some politicians that may be in the pockets of the car manufacturers.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
...I'm afraid I can't do that.
webpage
had to take my car to the dealership this weekend because the shop down the block didn't know what the codes meant. Turns out it was a misaligned break caliper, cost me $225 at the dealership, would have been about $130 down the street.
Debian GNU/Honda is where it's at.
They should have always required opening up of these interfaces. The owner pretty much has to take the word of a very small select group of "in the know" mechanics on what condition their car is in. And we all know how trustworthy the average local mechanic/dealer mechanic is (do a google for Jiffy Lube, Sears, etc, and auto mechanics and lawsuits)
Then I recall my own wonderful personal experience. I had engine fluctuation issues in a turbo charged car. 15 trips to the dealer (under warranty) and replacement of virtually ever sensor and the car's computer failed to rectify the sporadic condition. The car had a computer interface, and it was telling them... well, I don't know what it was telling them - I couldn't access the interface....
Long story short though, one day, the engine started having RPM fluctuations while idling, so I popped open the hood and, since I hadn't been running long nor very hard, decided to take a quick look at the intercooler fluid level. I just happened to notice as I pulled out the intercooler cap that the float bob sensor attached to said cap was sunk to the bottom, even though the intercooler level was fine. I bypassed this sensor and all was fine for the next 100K miles. Odds are I'd have found this more quickly if I could have hooked up a computer to the interface to diagnose the problem while it was happening.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
Maybe someone could come up with better usability design for the car interfaces as well, instead of those multiple-menu screens built by Germans (no offense to KDE and SuSE guys, but Germans, while touting reliability, do build awful interfaces in their cars).
I just got this column from Jacob Nielsen in my mailbox complaining about this exact issue.
Does anyone understand the manufacturer's argument about the calibration codes being like the difference between two processor designs? I can't imagine how that would be, but then I don't know anything about the calibration codes.....
Not all garage mechanics are knowledgable with computers.
wasn't volvo saying that they were goign to start shipping cars with their hoods weilded shut? hilarous. Make spec's known, but make the interface to that computer unreachable.
I wonder if a person with an encrypted computer is entitled for a refund. Is this documented in the deal? If not, there may be some class action lawsuits happening soon...
l8,
AC
DVD manufacturers forced to open CSS.
Microsoft forced toopen Windows hidden interfaces.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
If the auto companies encrypt the computer secrets using weak encryption and claim DMCA jurisdiction, wouldn't the DMCA disallow the applicability of the new law in that case?
I don't think these small car repair shops should recieve access to car computers that manufacturers don't want them in. By restricting access, car manufacturers can ensure quality, and knowledge about a car. With sucha a range of vehicles on the roads today, chances are that some of these smaller car repair shops have not worked on a car that is the same type as yours.
Well, in one sense security like this is helpful to the car owner--many cars can't be hotwired anymore, because the starter is controlled by an onboard computer and will only work when the driver's key is in the ignition. On the other hand, it sucks, because losing your key can be upwards of $70 to replace. Also, smaller companies get the shaft. Maybe they need to separate the systems--not locking up the things small shops need access to for repairs could allow anti-theft measures to remain in place.
The proposed law can only be a good thing. With more and more of everyday life becoming computerized, such codes could be used to shut people out from everything from their cars to their washing machines.
The principle point here is: Does the public have the right to access and repair of their own violation property they have paid for? This can readily be applied to almost any manufactured good in the future. Let's face it, how many things do you buy anymore that aren't controlled by computer code?
Some of you people just don't get it: DVD CSS has NOTHING to do with COPYING or the prevention thereof! You can make as many copies of a CSS'ed DVD as you want. CSS is all about who can play the DVD and where.
The car industry provides two areas of profit (and one of loss) 1. Making and selling the car - a loss 2. Financing the sale of a car - a profit 3. Servicing and repairing the car - a profit Finance is a competitive industry, so the profits are small. Servicing can be turned into a monopoly, so is it any surprise the car makers are doing so? Politicians know how to shakedown an industry - threatening to regulate it and forcing competition is not uncommon. For some as yet unknown reason, the threats are not always carried out.
This sounds like an election year doggy treat. Pass it in the House and kill it in the Senate.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
The autoindustry flack gives us a bad example in defense of proprietary data : "A calibration code is what makes that part work, and that's the part that's proprietary," Territo said. "It's like the difference between an Apple microprocessor and an IBM microprocessor. Not only does IBM now make Apple's microprocessors.. in the past, the spec of the Apple's mainstay PowerPC chip was open. Even Apple's recognizing the benefits of open code (as evinced by safari/khtml ).
... Territo said. "It's like the difference between an Apple microprocessor and an IBM microprocessor."
Hmmh, and I thought Apples G5 Microprocessors come from IBM...
If this works for previous model years instead of just new models, I'll be really happy. There's a small but loyal group of people like me that are trying to get a supercharger for our car. A company has quoted if they could produce it, the supercharger could conservatively raise the car from 174hp to ~260hp (300 lb-ft torque) thanks to a solid engine. The physical supercharger is the same as any others, but the problem is that no one has been able to crack the Hitachi (I think) computer so the programming knows about a supercharger and doesn't compensate for it negatively.
enforced open source for cars but not for computers, eh congressman? well that's a damned double standard!
lets stick to our guns and let the dealerships charge the independent service shops for "special training" to learn the codes, then sell them the "diagnostic tools" at grossly inflated prices.
fair is fair after all. NO CHEATING!
** Chigusaaa!!! You're the coolest girl in the WORLD!!! **
Small car repair shops are more and more becoming locked out of the repair business because most late model cars can only be fixed by accessing their computers with codes that are secret."
These are lies. You can get all the required codes from the vehicle's repair manual (~$120). You can also use Google for this same purpose. The OBD interface is standard, so you don't need a new one for every model car.
I've been watching mechanics sweat this stuff since the early 80's. Meanwhile, most of their problems arise from not updating their diagnostic equipment because it costs money.
Aside from the other reasons, I think with technology getting more and more complicated in newer vehicles, it might be a good thing to see the 'general' mechanic become a thing of yesterday. I would rather have someone licensed and very experienced and specialized in working on just my make of car. That way, they know all the quirks and bugs related to specific models. A general mechanic will just know the basics of every car, but little specialization in an area that affects his value to me.
Keep in mind, when I say general mechanic, I am speaking of a guy who's got his certifications and is good at what he does. Before you folks get frothy towards me, remind yourself that the big general mechanic shops include Pep Boys and other parts stores that have mechanics in a shop on the side. They do not specialize in a particular car or specific service.
It's because they don't want to get sued by SCO!
A friend will come and bail you out of jail, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "damn that was fun!"
This is a very interesting situation... A small group of companies in an industry won't allow information about their product to become available to the public, making it difficult if not impossible for the rest of the industry and complementary service industries to be able to use this information to repair, inspect, or modify the original product.
This sounds vaguely familiar. Now where have we seen this before?
It's perfectly reasonable to, once they've given you the quote, to also tell you what all is wrong with your car. Tell them you'd need to think about it, as if this is going to put a bit of crimp in your budget for this month, and say you'll get back to them as soon as you've worked out the details.
Trot down to your favorite small shop mechanic and ask him how much he'd charge to do exactly the job that the other guys said needed to get done. You tell him that the dealership has already given you a quote for $X, and the problem has been diagnosed by them. Odds are he'll undercut them. If not, just go back to the dealership... you're SOL.
If your mechanic guy has offered to do the repairs, then you go back to the dealership and tell them that you just can't swing that kind of money this month. Then you take your car to little guy's shop and have it repaired there.
Funny thing is, if enough people did this, the little guys would learn what the diagnosis codes meant because they'd get customers coming in telling them what was already wrong, and the mechanics could start matching up codes to real problems.
Now the question is, is the above method, using strictly social engineering, still considered a violation of the DMCA?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
People are diliberately confusing 'codes' and 'code'. Mechanics need the _codes_ that the computer spits out indicating what is wrong. Nobody needs the _code_ for the computer software.
As for the whole complaint about the recent complexity of cars; it is government mandated and consumer demanded. There are requirements for fuel efficiency and emissions. A simple 4 stroke engine can only be so effecient and so clean. To meet regulations, cars need to incorporate exhaust gas recirculation, variable cam timing, complex variable spark timing, catylitic converters, and a host of other complexities. Consumers want climate control, adaptive suspension, 17 way power adjustable seats, power cupholders, remote buttons for everything, heated everything, and performance, but they expect their cars to have the simplicity of an air cooled VW?
The masses are the crack whores of religion.
If car companies reveal enough of the interface design, then hackers will be able to disable or erase the car's black boxes. That way the police won't know if you were speeding when you wrap the car around a telephone pole.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
:->
Cool! I've always wanted to Slashdot an Acura!
By keeping the DMCA and then giving special legistlative protection to individual industries (like the small mechanics and third party tool vendors in this case) we are bringing ourselves to a huge regulator nightmare quicker and quicker. By getting rid of the DMCA we could allow people to hack away at these problems and make a profitable industry that benefits us all.
Why is everyone saying this is "too little, too late"?
If I had the know how, I'd jump this oportunity to start a business once the interfaces are opened.
Manufacture custom made analyzation stations that can understand all the makes and models of the big brands. Now imagine selling this with decent price to all the little car shops that don't currently have access to any of these new fangled car chips.
If the machine is sufficiently advanced, the small shops can cath-up in no time.
Bot Assisted Blogging
Just when you thought Congress was totally useless, they go and do something right. It was always wrong for the small repair shops to be excluded from being able to repair newer cars, but we citizens were also being excluded from being able to repair our own cars. It surprises me that Congress has the cojones to do this, but I do applaud the action.
By excluding the small repair shops, the auto manufacturers are preventing customers from getting the best repair deals. By exluding US from reading our own engine error codes, we can't easily perform many basic auto maintenance tasks.
Bravo to whomever decided to step out-of-character in our Congress.
Car computer secrets want to be free man!!!
Is there no room for wit on slashdot?
There is a major difference between the MPAA and the auto industry. The MPAA does give thier codes to major manufacturers so that the DVDs will play. You can purchase a DVD player in any Walmart, Shopko, pawn-shop across the country that will play the DVD. What happens when your car breaks down in the middle of the Nevada desert will be a $1500 towing bill to get it to a dealer instead of a $200 towing bill to the next town. GM doesn't have certified auto-shops in every town.
When your DVD player breaks you just plop down another $40, do you really want to pay several hundred dollers to get to the nearest dealership and then plop down $20000?
With the older cars, either they didn't have computer codes, or the computer codes were fairly easy to figure out and published in the Chiltons manual. Now the manufacturers are trying to keep the codes as a trade secret so that you have to go to the dealer.
The net result is that it just isn't quite the same game using the DMCA to protect the cars codes. Next time my car breaks down and I have to bumb a ride 300 miles just to get to a phone, I want to know that I can get my car fixed there too. I want to have a prayer to fix the car on the road if I have a Chiltons.
If you take this quote from the article:
... you shouldn't be able to take your car to anyone you want rather than there being only one option."
... you shouldn't be able to take your music to any player you want rather than there being only one option."
"You don't want technology to destroy competitiveness," said Sen. Lindsay Graham, R-S.C., who offered one of the bills. "There's no reason
and change two words, you get:
"You don't want technology to destroy competitiveness," said Sen. Lindsay Graham, R-S.C., who offered one of the bills. "There's no reason
I wonder how Sen. Graham voted on some other issue?
I often think that if you could get one car executive to take a 'chance'...and try the old idea behind the original GTO's and later other muscle cars...throw a monster engine into a decent body of a car...keep the interior minimalist...with real perfomance, and keep the price reasonable. I gotta think these things would sell like hotcakes...
Oh well...as long as we're dreaming here...I'd also like a pony...
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
It's the basic mechanic who is getting screwed on this whole thing. Yes, you, as a consumer are getting screwed, but you're just paying a percentage more than you would have. [Assuming you don't have the mechanical ability to fix it yourself].
It's the independant mechanics who are losing all of their profit, in that they just can't fix things.
Other companies still make low-cost DVD players, it's just that the general consumer doesn't have the access. I'd compare that to a general locksmith -- a locksmith knows how to cut a master key, based on a sub master, but the general public doesn't. [Of course, there are probably some criminals out there who know as well].
I'd compare this car issue to be closer in relationship to putting computer chips in ink cartridges, so that you might get a minor performance gain, but it results in a company being able to lock out any competition.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
I used to work for Sun Electric (now Snap-On), designing engine and emission diagnostic analyzers.
The "secret" diagnostic codes are published. The Chilton's repair guides for cars list the error codes for each car and manufacturer. Also, the factory service manuals for those cars have the codes and their meanings listed.
I love Cadillacs, though, because you can press "OFF" and "WARMER" on the Climate Control panel and it will list the codes on the display there! Then you can do the repairs at home yourself!
You can also go buy a $500.00 Snap-on ALDL analyzer (Assembly Line Diagnostic Link) and it will list the codes too. The newer vehicles call this OBD-2 (Onboard Diagnostics, V2).
Finally, there is some software out there (Payware, IIRC) that will list the codes on a PC or laptop, but you need to build an RS-232 to ALDL level converter for it (or buy the software with the appropriate dongle).
-- You are in a maze of little, twisty passages, all different... --
All of these automotive computers just need to be replaced with new ones, ones that run embedded Ninnle Linux! With an open source OS like that, anybody can fix her car with just a few mouse clicks!
Heh - I was about to submit this story. I can add a link to the actual bill, though: H.R. 2735. And, if you happen to be a US voter reading this, go here, find your representatives, and tell them that you support the Motor Vehicle Owners' Right to Repair Act of 2003. Perhaps hint to them that the same rationale could be applied to other things that consumers buy, and might want to fix at some point. Perhaps suggest that, really, some sort of comprehensive Consumers Bill of Rights could be in order. Just a thought.
It is not true to say that the diagnostic is
secret.
Take CAT for instance, it is true that there
is a proprietary protocol for diagnostic but
they also broadcast a lot of information on
either J1587 or J1939. GM broadcasts diagnostic
on J1850. Daimler broadcast on J1587 and J1939.
The information on these protocols are easy to get.
I write diagnostic for trucks and I don't need
any proprietary information except for the tire pressure controller.
Most engines, ABS and transmissions use the
SAE standards.
"A calibration code is what makes that part work, and that's the part that's proprietary," Territo said. "It's like the difference between an Apple microprocessor and an IBM microprocessor.
(s)he has never heard of a G5 before eh ?
yet another striking example of people not being in the no since apple has for the most part relied on others to make it's processors (i.e. motorola)
but in terms of the article i think that independant repair shops should be given some sort of book on how to reapir modern cars, and as far as intellectual property goes i don't understand why information like that would be stored in a car since if a car had to be recalibrated or whatever would who is repairing it have to know what it is from a book or CDROM not reading from the car ? This to me seems like having a pin number embedded on the stripe of a credit just asking to be read and eventually comprimised.
You can't directly compare this to the DMCA because when you're talking about music, movies, and software, you're talking about 1's and 0's that can be copied over and over. They're talking about codes to ensure fairness in repairing automobiles so the dealers don't steal all the business. The reason congress is stepping in is because no one is going to put their 2004 Explorer on kazaa and share it. They're not talking about opening up all the software. This isn't about open source at all, it's about knowing what is wrong with the care based on the error code the computer spits out.
Say your "check engine" light comes on. Back in the day (just a few years ago) you could turn your key to the "on" position a few times and the light would blink out the error code. You could look it up in your shop manual and you generally knew what the problem was. For some reason on my 2000 Jeep they did away with this feature. I always thought it was so that you had to go to the dealer. Know I know. I hate car companies.
can we learn from this? Does it mean we can go to court asking MS to release documentation for proprietary MS formats?
Then we can use SOAP transaction servers to query and fix the software in our cars.
Ask you car dealer if full repair specs can be included with the purchase of your vehicle. Most dealrs won't have a clue, or refuse. But a large number of cars do in fact have the info. I was looking into buying a toyota Prius (obviously in the must talk to the computer kind of cars). The dealer gave me some dumb answer about how no auto mechanic could service a prius due to the high tech. I have news for him. When the internal combustion engine was developed, it was high tech, nobody knew how to service one. People learned! It turns out that you can buy the full prius service manual. I'm sure it has steps like "plug the toyotamaticdebugger2000 into the toyotaport2004" but at least the manual is available, unlike what the dealer said.
You also handle the point that allowing users to get into the inner workings of their cars is not inherently evil.
I foresee some argument along the lines of "If we do this, <insert terrrorist/criminal organization here> will be able to soup-up the performance of their cars, and escape capture.
People working on their cars at low level resembles people working on Linux From Scratch, with the difference being that a core dump is only embarrassing, whereas an engine becoming several hundred flying sub-engines at the I95/I495 interchange, known with affection as 'the mixing bowl', could have substantial costs...
I hope the safety gestapo doesn't win the argument.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
...it was called Knight Rider. Just have all the automakers create autos that can talk and tell you the diagnostic/problem information. Take it a step further....sell advertising in the information.
"Michael, the left tire is running low and I've already told you 10 times. Why do you ignore me Michael? I let you into my hood on the first date. Oh look Michael, a Discount Tire shop; that would hit he spot, plus the tire tech has a nice big wrench...can we stop?"
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a fat white guy who is threatened by change."
The simple reasoning behind this is to encourage competition in the belief that competion results in better products and/or lower prices.
Cars are something that are easily understood by most people. You buy a car and you want to get it fixed but the place that fixed your old car can't fix this car because the car manufacturer won't let the mechanic read the computer information in YOUR car.
So, you'll have to pay the prices that the car manufacturer wants you to pay to get your car fixed.
I think will be an easy bill to pass. The average person will see it as a way of saving money.
Use 89 octane or above to avoid excessive 'pinging'.
;)
Sorry
Part of the anti-trust business required microsoft to open up their APIs to other software companies so they could compete on an even footing with microsoft's own software.
So why does MS get to keep secrets about the Windows API?
I'm not sure it's that simple. There are tons more regulations that manufacrurers must meet today - from safety regulations to pollution measures. Throwing a 440ci engine with a four barrel carb into a light car simply isn't possible anymore.
"The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.
You could still get a muscle car for a reasonable price right up until GM stopped making F bodies in 2002. Also, all that hard to work on techie stuff really helps. The 1998 Camaro Z28 was (and may still be) the fastest and quickest stock Camaro/Firebird ever made (that includes those 454 ci monsters). At about 330 horsepower (290 at the rear wheels) in a light body it'll run like a scalded dog. I'll be keeping mine forever (or perhaps a bit longer).
I think that this should be required under fair use. Consumers should be allowed to fix their own cars if they have the know-how. As it is, most new cars cannot even have a problem diagnosed by an owner, but must be taken to a dealer, who charges you at least $75 just to hook up a computer and say, "Your oxygen sensor is bad." I get really pissed off that I can't read the codes on my '99 Cherokee unless I buy an OBD2 code reader and then I have to know what the numeric code it gives means. On older vehicles, the codes are easy to find, but on newer ones, it's getting much more difficult and in some cases impossible. The auto dealers will throw lots of money at this and buy off the congressmen and this won't happen.
To achieve all of this, computers had to be put in the cars. A car without computers wouldn't be competitive in today's market, and it wouldn't be able to produce high power outputs while staying within today's mandated pollution limits.
ALL of the car manufactures are doing this and it is affecting ALL consumers and creating vertical oligarchies for the companies. They are unfairly restricting competition from non dealer repair shops. And that is a an ABUSE of their position as Car manufactures.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Saturday last, a repairman came over from Sear's to do a prev maintenance on our dishwasher. All he did was hook up a laptop to a connection inside the machine - executed a few diagnostics and left 3 minutes later! The bill was $114 - but cost us nothing under the warranty.
OpenOffice tips:richhillsoftware.com
If the spec sheets etc... are released, or can be bought, we can write software for the cars and market it. I look forward to the day when you can download a open source program for linux that you can plug into your GM or Ford or whatever and at least do stupid stuff like reseting those GOD FORSAKEN oil change indicators. 30$ just to get that set is pretty unreasonable.
"Oh... There it goes... my brain stopped" - Ed from Ed, Edd, and Eddy.
Secondly, patents, which are likely applied all over those 'fuel injectors' would protect them from being mass produced by outside sources.
The auto industry is simply spouting half-truths in order to protect its illegal business practices.
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
Cynical? Me?!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Hmm Check Engine. OK. :opens hood: Yep, got an engine, Check!
Cant remember the comedian, but oh well. Seriously though, certain brands of cars(cough cough Ford) are known for having the check engine light come on when a sensor in the car is being pissy, maybe cause it was cold or your wheel was slipping, even if there is nothing wrong with your engine. Once it comes on, the only way to turn it off is to take it to a mechanic who will charge you 60$ to reset the light and tell you he doesnt see any problems. Or you can just disconnect the battery for minute, but you lose your radio station presets. I don't see why this is such a big deal though. Seems like its pretty easy to get a code reader. Hell the base model is less than 200$, might be good to get one just to play with. Not to mention all the codes can be looked up right here. For 25$ a year you can even use AllData to diagnose problems with your car based on the codes, and be updated on service and recall bulletins. Interesting note at the bottom though: Note: Currently, information is available for Model Years 1982 to 2002. 2003 Model Year information is scheduled to be released this winter. Unfortunately, information for Honda, Acura and BMW is not available to consumers through ALLDATA DIY by request of the manufacturers.
Moderation Totals: Flamebait=2, Troll=1, Redundant=1, Insightful=6, Overrated=1, Underrated=1, Total=12. (not mine)
As someone who's part-way through the 100+ hour task of reverse engineering the computer in his '86 Mazda RX-7, I can say this truely is a great thing.
The are all kind of problems that are extremly difficult or impossible to diagnose and solve without the ability to REALLY talk to a car's computer.
I think most people don't realize just how much is coming under control of the car's computer these days. It used to be the computer just controlled the injectors, then it was spark. Now the computer might also control your ABS, traction control, regulator-less fuel system, electric power steering. In many modern cars (A 2000 Corvette would be an example) there isn't even a direct link between the throttle body and the gas pedal anymore. The gas pedal has a sensor and the TB has an actuator.
The government needs to junk ODBII and come up with a totally new approach. They allowed too many manufacturer-specfic exceptions, and made it require too much special hardware.
ODBII deliberately uses a nonstandard baud rate, to make it difficult to interface with a PC. The result of this is that an application (with cable) to read codes with your laptop will cost you $100+ instead of the $40 it should.
It's damn frustrating to have to buy a $160 computer to tell you that you car needs a $5 set of spark plugs. (It would have cost $70 just to get a shop to tell me the same thing).
A new interface should be designed that is a standard serial port, and allows for VERY few "undocumented" codes.
Life is too short to proofread.
Very true, and I miss those days too. BUT, you have to keep in mind WHY those computer controls are there. Anybody heard of CARB? Our good buddies at the California Air Resources Board set standards for emissions(most of which are adopted by the feds nationwide) that would make a car like the old GTO unsellable today. Remember, the slang meaning of GTO is Gas, Tires, and Oil because those are the three things they burn.
The millions of dollars spent perfecting these components are needed to meet emissions standards so they can continue to sell cars in the US.
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
And...even a pretty powerful one was reasonably affordable to the majority of people....
Yeah, I too miss the days when oil was infinite and nearly free (for Westerners, I mean).
Guess you can blame emancip-- whoops, I mean decolonialization for that. In the meantime, tell me again how my backlit instrument panel has somehow made all modern cars suck?
This is most likely a redundant reply but it does bring to mind the standard Open soruce argument "What would you do if the hood of your car was welded shut". So are cars really better these days or do they just simply have more horsepower/dollar?
Gamers aside (although lunar lander was/still is a cool game on a TRaSh-80), except for drop and drop copying and inline spell/grammer checking is Windows/X11 a real improvement of dos/shell programs of 15 to 20 years ago? And I am sure Emacs or edt could ahve had the inline spell checking on a system with sufficient memory and cpu power.
I make my face look like this and concerned words come out.
Ever hear of a minimalist car manufacturer by the name of JEEP? My wrangler and I have a great time swappin stock parts for better parts - INEXPENSIVELY!!! Do I get wet in the spring? Yeah... Do I freeze in the winter ? Not really as Wranglers got GREAT heaters. Can I replace ANY part (including the entire body/frame/axels/seats/seatbelts/top ? YOU KNOW IT!!!!
I bet quite a few people would like to service Microsoft the way we consumers have been serviced by Windows.
The usefulness of the proprietary data stream is overstated. I think it was in 94 that the first on-board diagnistic spec (OBD) appeared in mass production. Everyone was crying about it at the time. Amazingly, independent repair shops are still in business. Since then there have been refinements, but it basically defines a standard interface and subset data stream required on all production cars in the US. With an OBD capable scan tool and the proper manuals, any tech can diagnose any problem with any car. There might be a more robust data stream available to the dealer mechanic, but the true value of that extra data is trivial IMO.
I left a 10 year career in auto repair (part of that post-OBD), where my specialty was driveability and electrical. The truly skilled technicians understand the system and don't necessarily depend on a particular tool to get their work done. An old-style analog oscilloscope is more valuable to a tech than any proprietary scan tool. The challenge is the diminishing number of techs that would know what to do with one.
Other devices or error codes to help trouble shoot the problem. Printers, Some software, and many other devices with computers attached to them. I think it should be fair to release all the error codes.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I'm a gear head. I know lots of geeks who are gear heads. I, however, have never encountered a problem due to inability to access 'calibration codes'.
I know that you can hook your laptop up to your OBDI/II based vehicle. What can ya do?
-monitor telemetry in real time [RPM,Throttle position, timing, fuel inject pulse lengths, etc.]
-read error codes stored in computer [terse format]
-reprogram the computer[really the data on which decisions are made, not the heuristics themselves]*
*You can't change stuff on earlier computers! Must be that we don't have the 'calibration code' to make a PROM into an EEPROM?!
Seriously though! What you need to 'know' to fix a car is:
Interface specification
Table of error/condition codes and triggering parameters.
Wiring diagrams, mechanical diagrams, parts lists, etc.
how modern cars work
From what I understand, the Interfaces are standardized [think ISO,IEEE, not RFC]. The error codes, and at least short descriptions, are available. The diagrams, etc. are available via repair manuals/KB Systems. I know that at least some manufacturers publish/authorize official such products. As for knowledge, can't legislate that:)
What information is being withheld that makes non-dealer repair impossible?
And what are 'calibration codes'?Cars are still designed by people... some just use computers. It's not the fault of computers that modern designers suck so bad. Take a look at the Ford GT. They used computers extensively in its design, and its one of the sexiest cars out there.
The Philosophy of Liberty | lewrockwell.com
I guess the gas shortage did a bit too....but, hell, if I could have one of these again...I wouldn't worry too much about gas prices....
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Only drives old cars because he can fix them. I don't blame him, but I don't want to fix a car so I bought a new one and will probably sell it after I've driven it for 7 or 8 years. It might break down a few times, but I treat it nice and it's a Toyota with great reports on this model, so I don't think I'll have any problems.
"If they had patented their expensively-designed parts, they would have zero problems with opening the specs for third-party repair shops and could still prevent third-party replica parts."
BOOM!
Damn! That was my head exploding.
Decide folks. Do we hate patents, or do we love patents?
I would like to see standard (bluetooth?) interfaces to the stereo and telephone keypad/ handsfree/antenna in every car. So, for example, in 2007 - I have a brand new iPod phone. I get into any car, and I can controll the iPod via the stereo controlls, and it plays through the car stereo. The phone hooks up to the cars antenna and keypad - if I receive a call it routes through the handsfree, and I can make calls via the keypad. I know that some of this is already available, but it is not standard or widely used.
Or what if the big car makers were in some kind of arrangement with an 'aftermarket' shop...and basically just unloaded the cars to them to let them 'mod' and sell retail there.
As soon as I can get a bit out of CC debt...I'm wanting to buy a 73-76 trans am...455 4 speed, and restore it. Man, those things were fun.
But, back to the point...there has to be a way somehow around all the regulations...seems they just need a way to get around them. If a private person can mod a car all the way they like or even build a car (kit)....without much regulation, I'd say there has to be some way around the laws strangling the car industry.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Now, if only I had a car computer... But seriously, this is a very good news for everyone who has any contacts with automotive or computer industry at large, id est pretty much every single human being whatsoever. One has to wonder what are the next plans of congress in regard to propritary software world as aw hole. There is a fine line between revealing the secrets of car computers and revealing the secrets of car robots, which I, for one, would be most certainly much more interested in. Slippery slipe? I hope not. This was a very interesting article in my opinion and like almost everything written by Pope begs lots of very important questions, which is always a good omen in the techno world we live today.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
The difference is that nowadays, something DOESN'T go wrong, so there is no need to fix it. My girlfriend's micra is like 10 years old and even after 3 or 4 minor accidents (yeah, she drives THAT bad!) the car just keeps on going and going.
They did that in '98...the Z28 Camaro. I had one...24k all tricked out with a 305hp LS1 engine. The thing was a MONSTER, and got about 24mpg with me rodding it all over the place.
Unfortunately the insurance killed me...$350/month. I had to get rid of it.
I guess this is why they didn't sell like hotcakes.
God I miss that car!
Riiiight. Cause they're stupid and don't know people will try this. That must be why a lot of dealerships charge a "diagnostic fee" that you have to agree to (check the fine print) before they'll look at your car. The same reason they will waive that fee when they find $900 worth of repairs that you "need".
Best place to find car info - groups.google.com. Had our Jetta freak out, alarm was sounding, anti-theft wouldn't let us start the car. Took it to an independent mechanic, they couldn't find anything, and the problem had gone away. Before I went to pick it back up, I did a quick search on groups.google.com. Found it. I called them up, talked to the tech, and said "check the wiring harness that goes to the rear door. Open the rear door, pull back the rubber boot, and see if there are any stripped or worn wires." There were 3 wires that were cut and a couple more were stripped. I guess the wiring harness on those cars was just a little too short, and eventually they would wear out. I could have spliced the wires myself, but I had dealt with this shop before and they are good guys. And I could have them do it while I was at work. But without those newsgroups, it probably would have happened to me again and again and again, and would have cost me a lot of diagnostic time.
Ahh the internet - is there anything it can't do?
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I miss minimal computer control....large engines with tons of horsepower.
So go get a WRX - small engine with tons of horsepower.
and it had enough power to smoke the tires for a couple of blocks
Can't do that on the WRX - too much grip.
I often think that if you could get one car executive to take a 'chance'...and try the old idea behind the original GTO's and later other muscle cars...throw a monster engine into a decent body of a car...keep the interior minimalist...with real perfomance, and keep the price reasonable. I gotta think these things would sell like hotcakes...
I think the WRX sells pretty well at $25k. It has most of what you want, plus it corners well.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
Fortunately, people like you are in a very small minority. I, for one, prefer my air to be breatheable.
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
I have a 2003 Cavalier that I had for 6 days when the Sunroof refused to close all the way. I took it in the next day and they had to resync the position in the computer.
Basic functions like opening and closing the sunroof are computer controlled. The manufacturer controls access to the computer. That's how they can extort service contracts out of new car buyers. You have no choice other than to take it to the dealer. The radio is computer controlled, and I would bet that the electric windows have to calibrated by the dealer as well.
US Airline industry
failing miserably ..
terrorists ..
Congress bails out whole industry ..
Industry still hasn't fixed business model
MPAA / RIAA
financially in trouble ..
blame pirates, hackers, p2p..
Lawmakers pass all sorts of laws, Judges pass all sorts of sentences..
Industry still hasn't fixed business model
US Automakers
future seems uncertain ... floating 0% financing schemes
blame the forced opening of proprietary interfaces, blame car-computer hackers
Congress soon to bail out troubling industry ?? (or at least the retirement funds)??
Industry still hasn't fixed business model
"With the codes to your DVD, you can make unlimited copies, and do anything and everything with them."
This is so far from incorrect I suspect you're either an MPAA shill or a troll.
For large-scale duplication, the DeCSS code does nothing to halt duplication.
It does nothign to stop you or I from copying the DVD using legal, free tools.
Therefore, if you know anything about DeCSS, you'll know its primarily a tool to enforce region encoding, something that is not illegal to bypass.
Stop being such a suck-ass.
Yeah and if you really want to be minimalist, and have tons of power at little cost, just buy a neon SRT-4.
:)
Oh wait, you said it needed to look good too...
damn...
There were no factory 454 Camaros. The COPO 427 Camaros would have no problem with a '98, however. Neither would a RA II Firebird.
"SOAP compatible interface"s I believe that's a washrag. Don't think it will work.
RS-232? USB? How long until USB is obsolete? It would take automakers 3-5 years minimum to switch to USB, and then another 5-10 years after that if they needed to change again. Will USB be around in 15 years?
If this passes, then congress will make history by ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING SMART!!
-- I am. Therefore, I think!
We all know that this is because G.W. got bit by the fast & furious bug, and wants to street race the presidential lincoln on the weekends, but the chip in it is proprietary.
I would totally die if I saw Bush cruising with the presidential motorcade, with lights on the wheels and super-loud bass, and flames on all the cars. Maybe even a big "G-Dub" airbrushed on the hood. Nice!
stuff |
You may have been able to make more adjustments and corrections yourself, but I can guarantee that you had to make them a lot more often and they were nowhere near as precise.
With more stringent emissions requirements, (the real reason all the fun cars went away) the engine compartment became considerably more complex. In the 1970's, in the age before computers but after increased emissions reqirements, cars were terrible. The auto makers were forced to detune their cars, which killed performance and fuel economy. Emmissions control was a byzantine maze of vacuum lines contolled by a series of unreliable mechanical valves and switches.
Computers overcame many of these problems in the 1980's. A computer controlled fuel injection system can provide the optimum fuel mixture much more reliably than any old mechanical carbureator. Eventually, computers came to control more and more systems on cars, providing better performance for a lower cost than what they replaced.
I didnt say it cleared the codes out of memory, but it turns off the light. And I tend to consider my mercury with its fancy power steering, moonroof, and even a magical mp3 reciever to be a "modern vehicle"
Moderation Totals: Flamebait=2, Troll=1, Redundant=1, Insightful=6, Overrated=1, Underrated=1, Total=12. (not mine)
It is also a copy of the GT-40 they made forty years ago. Only the new one doesn't come with a 427.
Would it not make even more sense to simply have a small display in the dash that translates the codes into english. This is what should be mandated. It would not cost much more than what is there now and would be far more useful, for all. I'm sure that dealership mechanics have to look up the codes.
Look, if they want to continue to compete with other mechanics then they should do so by providing service as good as my independent does.
True friends are hard to come by... I need more money. - Calvin
"Nobody's getting shut out of the DVD player business."
Really?
Go try to make one and sell it. Tell me how that all works.
Moron.
Modern muscle cars are more powerful off the showroom floor than those of 40 years ago. The horsepower ratings are fairly honest. In 1960, 10% horsepower exaggeration was officially allowed by some professional organization (The ASME, IIRC).
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
While I agree with your first paragraph I doubt your dream in the second paragraph is possible.
There's too much stuff required to get any sort of car out the door now: emissions (all them sensors), airbags (a grand apiece), and crash-worthiness (granted, not a production cost compared to older vehicles, but a considerable design cost). I went to an auto show two weeks ago and there really weren't many cars stickering for under 20k.
I'd say the Camaro was what you wanted (body + monster engine, crappy interior). And it didn't sell like hotcakes. You'd say the Camaro wasn't what you wanted and rattle off differences between your uber-car and the Camaro. I'd guess that most of these differences (IRS, non-crappy interior, weight-reduction) would add money.
Now I posted all of that to commend you for your Calvin & Hobbes reference. I'll occasionally use that one when people are requesting features and nobody has ever understood. News for Nerds, indeed.
You're right. Buy a DVD player or don't.
Let me turn it around though....
Either sell the DVD player or don't. But don't go lobbying congress for laws that prevent people from tinkering to play Japanese or European DVD's in their North American player.
Asshat.
Someone made a pro-patent comment on slashdot and got +5 Insightful?
It's not April 1st yet... what's going on here?
Come play free flash games on Kongregate!
I agree! It used to be that the average mom & pop or even home enthusiast could purchase the "decoding" machines or the books that translated the engine light codes. Those days ended around 1992, I believe. As a car enthusiast and do-it-yourselfer, it's irritating as hell to have to pay an exorbitant fee to some dealer just to tell me what the computer THINKS is wrong with my car. 9 times out of 10, it's just some sensor somewhere that is malfunctioning and needs replacing. Usually, if the sensor weren't there, the car would run fine, too. I'll take my good-old v8 any day over cars with 50 million sensors that go bad.
"According to the Turtle" www.paperbackreader.com
Reading other posts about DVDs, CDs, etc... the first thing I noticed is that Congress most likely doesn't realize they are similar. There is probably a good chance this will pass and DVDs will not, but I think it could be argued that those codes are trade secrets that they do not have to release.
"Why is the government stepping into private business matters and FORCING them to make things easier for their competition a good thing?"
Let me ask a different question....
Why is the government stepping in and stopping private people from copying their own DVD's for their own personal use a good thing?
Isn't it a shame that automakers can't force you to get all the service done at the dealership? Why should the government force all those wonderful car companies to allow you to get your oil changed at JiffyLube?
Why does the government make people do *anything*? Shouldn't they be fixing Iraq or something?
If it pisses you off, do nothing (huh? but seriously) - when your car gets older and starts having problems, don't take it to the dealer. Take it to your local mechanic, and tell him you want a carberator installed and to go ahead and throw out the fuel injector.
It may be more expensive the first time through, but that way you won't have problems with 20 year old computer equipment - that your mechanic doesn't know how to fix without using junk-yard parts anyway.
Many have said it before, and others will say it again - if it displeases you... vote with your wallets.
I wonder how many campaign contributions it'll take to kill this one in committee?
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Have you looked at the gas milage of the modern junk people seems to die for? Those huge death traps have worse milage than anything produced in the 50's and 60's. They might polute less, but they sure do eat gas. Raise gas prices to 4+$/gal and see how many people turn on their SUVs.
I like power too, but I like 40+ mpg better. (my turbo bug (2001) gets about 30 city and over 40 long distance -- completely stock, I love it too much to take it apart.)
Not everything that has value can (or even should) be patented.
You can't smoke the tires on the WRX because it doesn't have enough horsepower. Please. Normal every-day street tires don't have very much grip to begin with. And at it's claimed ~270HP, this still is not enough power to spin the tires for a few blocks.
Not to mention the power delivery of these engines is much more in the high RPMs, where the older big displacement V8's have much more power in the low end, which will help "off the line".
The WRX has much more power and pep than other cars in it's class, but it is not a muscle car. It does handle quite well, though. Handling is much better than the muscle cars of yesteryear.
If you had nuts on your chin, would they be chin nuts?
You know I remember when cars had NO computers at all. Not even minimal. Geez. Kids these days. We had to push our car up a mountain through the snow every day and when we got on the way down the landlord would get in and ride down and drive over us. But we were happy.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
>I generally love anything new and techie...but, I really miss the days of simpler cars. I miss minimal computer control....large engines with tons of horsepower. Where if something went wrong..it was mostly mechanical...and you could work on many things yourself.
My current pickup truck has electronic ignition and electronic fuel injection. If it breaks, I'm screwed. The good thing is it never breaks, and it never needs a tuneup. It goes from sea level to 10,000 feet and never misses a beat. My old truck with its old-school carb needed two stops for screwdriver tweaking of the fuel mixture or it started running like a pig.As for being able to work on old-style pickups, yes I could and did. On one memorable trip, I recall pulling my distributor out because the roll-pin holding the gear on the bottom of the shaft sheared off. I was able to fix it with the tools I had on hand, in the middle of winter up along the Skagit River, miles from anywhere with a parts house. Got it fixed, back in the engine, timed it by ear, and on the road. Yes, I fixed it, but that kind of stuff happened all the time. I like the new electronic components; they just work.
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
Maybe a few cars from back then claimed more horsepower than what you can get today. (I kind of doubt it with cars like the Dodge Viper on the market). Keep in mind that horsepower numbers were inflated back then, and the drivetrains and suspensions were not capable of utilizing the horsepower that they had.
If you read any car magazine, there are plenty of aftermarket shops that do modify today's cars, and they manage to keep them legal as well.
There was much more LOW-balling of HP numbers than HIGH-balling of HP numbers back then, especially on the highest performance cars. This was to keep the regulators at bay.
.600" lift cammed 427 Chevy makes 430HP is an absolute joke (it will do that with 2 spark plug wires disconnected). My 9.3 CR, .520" lift cam 427 makes 505.
The idea that a 12.5 compression ratio,
I have 3 Ford Bronco's. A 1975 that I am restoring, a 1978, and a 1993. The 1978 has a 460 out of a 1973 Lincoln Continental. It has a 650 CFM Edelbrock 4V carb on an aluminum intake. The heads have a 4-angle valve job and have been gasket-match ported to the intake and to the exhaust. It has an Edelbrock cam to match the carb and intake (it used to be called their "Performer Package"). The exhaust is a set of Hooker headers going to Cherrybomb glaspacks and 3" turnouts in front of the rear tires. It has an 8" lift kit, stock C6 tranny, part-time 4x4 transfer case, and 40" tall tires. The distributor is an aftermarket HEI unit sold through a 4x4 parts distributor.
My '78 Bronco gets the SAME fuel mileage as my FACTORY STOCK '93 Bronco does (14 highway/11 city). The last time I had the emissions checked (when I used to live in Nashville, TN) the '78 had BETTER emissions than the '93.
Oh, the '93 has a bone stock 351 with EFI and an E4OD (aka Piece of Shit) tranny. Want to guess which one puts out more HP to the road?? Want to guess which one has had to hit the shop more since I have owned it??!
If you are experienced with working with high-performance engines, you can very easily build up a motor that can equal the "good ol days" of the GTO, Mustang, Chevelle, and Charger. And maintaining that performance and power is MUCH easier than plugging in a computer and trying to decipher codes. I can pull out a spark plug and discover more about how my engine is running than any computer can tell me.
Computer control does NOT equal performance and emission compliance. Quite the opposite in my experience.
The number 1 problem of working in a cubicle - 23 power cords, 1 outlet...
| It's not the safety gestapo, it's the
| environmental gestapo, and they won the
| arguement 30 years ago.
Sod it. I am a greenie.. I recycle my newspapers and bottles and take my own plastic bags to the supermarkets. I turn the water off when Im brushing my teeth and I am part owner in a southern right whale that lives off the coast of Argentina.
But I also get off on 351 cubic inches of V8 screaming like a horse going arse first into a meat grinder.
Its simple, make it so that car mods void the manufacturers warranty on new cars and add 20% to the insurance of used cars. Thus Ma and Pa kettle wont even think about fiddling with their timings and the few of us who do actually feel like playing under the hood can do so without fucking up the air.
Anyway, one truck spews out so much more crap than a dozen V8.
Note.. changing the chip in your rice rocket just doesnt count.
Norman Cook's Ode to Sl
It doesn't get good mileage...but, it sure does get you there FAST
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
I foresee some argument along the lines of "If we do this, will be able to soup-up the performance of their cars, and escape capture.
Too late.
Don't forget the Hemi powered 1969 Dodge Daytona Charger, which was "rated" at 425 horses from 426 cubes, but most people agree that it was underrated to keep insurance companies happy.
Fellowship 9/11
I'm surprised you didn't find a way to call someone a twit for disagreeing with you.
Applause.
Well, as an anon. poster mentioned...they actually claimed LESS horsepower, and performance specs on many of the muscle cars of yore....to get by the insurance companies.
Yes, the viper is a monster....but, it isn't very affordable by many people. I say so much of the complexity and computer controlling of everything is what makes the few performance cars of today, so out of the reach of all but the extremely rich today....
Hell, even a Corvette is an arm and a leg today. I had one of the first year's of the C5...was about $36K for that car, and it was loaded and with 6 speed. Electronics started freaking out on it...I unloaded it after 3 years...but, today, those things are WAY expensive...I think the Z06 is well over $60K...I'd rather have a simpler performance car for a more reasonable price...in the mid $30's at least?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
This is good news for those of us who like to tinker with our cars, too. A while back I looked into available OSS interfaces to various models. It was a moot search. You ought to be able to plug your friggin' car into the serial port of your laptop and run diagnostics on emissions, compression, etc., as a matter of course.
It should also be noted that legislation addressing this issue was originally championed by the late Sen. Paul Wellstone of MN.
It should also remind us how close we are to similarly prescribed access to the internals of a general purpose computer. Wouldn't some interests like to see a *No user serviceable parts inside. Opening case voids any warranties or EULAs associated with this machine.* sticker on your next box.
illegitimii non ingravare
There are obviously physical limitations to how much you can put UNDER the hood (and still see), but you'd be surprised at how customizable new cars are.
What kind of gas mileage and emissions would such a car have? Gas is $2.10 a gallon around here these days, and smog and global warming aren't much fun either...
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
must they also disclose easter eggs?
the bmw m3 has an interesting one..
..mork
In the case you point to, the method to access the error codes is listed in the factory service manual (I know because I own some); these can be bought by anybody. The method to get the codes is in most cases turning the ignition key ON-OFF-ON-OFF-ON and watching the pattern of a blinking light. The codes are listed in a table in the manual. Chrysler just made it relatively simple to get the engine codes; reverse engineering was not involved at all.
>If a private person can mod a car all the way they like
Unfortunately(or fortunately) you can't. Any car made after emmisions laws were put in place must pass those emmisions laws to drive on the highway. However, luckily for you I think a 73 may be old enough to predate the laws. I think 75 or so was the magic year. I had a 78 and it need to pass tests like a modern car(hence the HUGE drop in power from the 454s you are talking about and the 185HP 403ci engine mine had). Of course many people "side-step" the law by having a friend who does emissions testing.
One other thing you might look into if you are really interested in this is building a really fast, powerful car but also making it very efficient. I firmly believe that most cars today could run more efficiently(MPG) with much less emissions than they do but car manufactures keep them the way they are to save money. As an example the distributor, plugs, etc can be upgraded to provide a much hotter, longer spark than the OEM stuff which in theory cleans up the exhaust, and gives you more ponies. Why aren't ALL cars equiped with a high-performance electrical system? I think cost has a lot to do with it. I want to rebuild a 68-69 Charger once I get a house and I am thinking about converting it to EFI, etc. and making it as "modern" as possible.
-Comedian
I often think that if you could get one car executive to take a 'chance'...
how about this this?
You can get cars today with as much horsepower as ever. The main difference is that they produce far less pollution and get considerably better fuel economy as 60s muscle cars of similar proportions. They are also much safer, more reliable, easier to start, require less regular maintenence, and they automatically keep themselves in tune.
As an example of how far we've come since the 60's:
2004 Z06 Corvette makes 405 horsepower (that's NET horsepower, which can't be compared to the much more inflated gross horsepower ratings of the 60's)
It does 0-60 in 4 seconds flat.
It doesn't overheat even on hot summer days in Arizona.
It purrs like a kitten around town.
It can leave a hundred feet of tread on the pavement if you really want it to.
It gets 28 MPG on the highway which is better than most 6-cylinder grocery getters.
It carries a federal LEV rating (Low Emission Vehicle)
It is reprogrammable with 3rd party software (LS1Edit for example) if you want to tune it
The manufacturer recommended oil change interval is 15,000 miles! Longer oil change intervals means less used oil going into the environment.
And this is still the good ol' pushrod V8 design with a single cam. Fewer moving parts, lighter weight, but the computer technology is what makes all the difference in the world.
Now, in the 60's, if you had a car with that kind of power you had to do constant tuning to keep it running well, and it would probably overheat just from sitting and idling in a parking lot.
It's just that all the newfangled technology and gizmos makes these things much harder to work on than just getting in there with a wrench.
-CausticPuppy "Of all the people I know, you're certainly one of them." -Somebody I don't know
Cars are like windows it's too damn complex. It shouldn't have to be.
Why can't there be a car so mechanically simple, we can replace parts like PCI cards or processor in a PC?
Some of the most technically savy people I know are completely clueless about car internals. It's not a coincidence. We need a Linus Torvald of cars in this world.
over 60k? Funny, I paid $48.5 for my Z06.
You can pick up an 01 for mid 30s easy right now.
Well if it requires certain codes to access it, then why doesn't someone start a project to brute force these things and then make the codes available when they are found?
-illumina+us "I put on my robe and wizard hat..."
The real beauty happens when a LOT of people do this... giving the little guy ample opportunity to learn about the codes.
Another way for the mechanic to learn the codes would be to actually reverse engineer them... play around with an otherwise working car, and swap out different parts to see what codes mean what.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I only get about 9-10 mpg now as it is...so, isn't much of a concern to me....I didn't buy any of the cars I've owned over the years with concern over gas prices...
- 78 280Z
- 81 MR2 Turbo
- 97 C5 Corvette
- 86 911 Turbo Porsche
So...my main concern is speed and fun. To me, driving is not merely a way to get from point A to point B. I want to enjoy getting there...and doing it fast is what makes me happy.Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Out of curiosity, what did it turn out to be? I am guessing the Idle Air Controller Valve, as I have experienced the same thing with an Audi. $800 CDN to replace at the dealer, way less to take it off, clean it up, and have the problem fixed.
The code does show up - P00150, I believe, but the strange thing is that the check engine light does not come on for that code only, it comes on for a different problem (which apprently involves going above 150km/h. Not sure what that is about yet, but I just turn it off myself.
Hmm..I may have to look at those again. What part of the country did you get this at?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
It's after the warranty expires that you're probably going to want to take it elsewhere.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Yes, I agree. It used to be when you rear-ended someone you flew through the windshield and died. Now you hit a balloon and break your nose. Damn technology!
OTOH, your custom Lincoln engine has mods that may have been too expensive for a car manufacturer to put in any high-volume production car, old or modern. You can't take that as an example that proves that computers are worthless. Maybe the computers achieve the same goals at a lower cost than fancy machining and manifolds. Production engines made for the general market also need to satisfy more goals than one put in a moster truck; they need to run quiet and idle smoothly, for example.
Maybe you should try again, comparing a stock 73 Lincoln motor vs. a 2004 Cadillac Northstar, for example.
Actually, you can do anything you want to any car. Everything is still as tuneable as it ever was. All you need is a standalone engine management system or EMS. Try a google search for AEM EMS, Haltek ECU, Electromotive TEC-3. they are all programmable computers that you can use on almost any car, and tune it to run better than it did when it was stock.
And I'm glad you're not making the laws
It has little to do with quality. An old-school programmer with 30+ years of tinkering has considerably more knowledge of information systems than some 19 year old fresh out of MIT. I'd trust my computer to the old-timer before the new guy. Fact is, while the interface may be computer controlled, the CPU itself is the same basic silicone chip that it was 30 years ago. The computer can't "read" the harddrive like a human can. Sure, it'll turn the "8MB cache" on and give you an error code. But those PDP-11 technician they can read data faster than your lousy serial ATA controllers.
My point: putting the old-timers and the code monkeys out of business by restricting their ability to solve the simple problems (like having to reset an interrupt, they need the codes), you take out the segment of population most able to solve the really hard problems.
Gas mileage and emissions . With the 'new' old-tech of DoD (Displacement on Demand), monster v8s can get at least mid-20s on the highway. Look at the Corvette. A pushrod v8 that gets better mileage that the 4-bangers. Additionally, there are v8 tuners that get the factory engines running so efficiently that they pollute even less. I dropped a 'vette motor, sans computer control, into my Chevy pickup and it registered 1/10th the normal levels for the old motor. And this only had high-performance cat. converters - no other smoggie devices!!!!
Well, as I mentioned in another post...for the most part...how are they going to know you aren't 'meeting emission' standards? I've never lived in a state that checked your exhaust. And if you did...couldn't you fix it for the test...then, undo it for normal driving when finished? I don't know much about cars...would like to learn...but, I'd think this would be feasible...
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
"All my life, I have searched for a car that feels a certain way. Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yeilding like a nerf ball. Now, at last I have found it."
Trade secrets are fundamental to business. No one should be forced to give up their trade secrets just because others can't compete. Personally, I think it's a bad busniess practice to not tell independent mechanics enough info about the computer system to diagnose and solve probles, since it gives your customers less choice, and therefore, less incentive to buy your car. However, a specific car manufacturer does not have a monopoly on cars, and there is no just reason for the govt. to force a business to give up its trade secrets, if it chooses not to do so. I don't have a right to demand from anyone (non-monopoly in US) that they tell me how their product works, and if laws are passed that give me this power, it a blow to individual rights. If you believe a law that forces car manufacturers to give up their secrets on computer control is just, should should review your ideology, because you certainly don't believe in individual rights, or at least that not everyone has the same individual rights, if you grant yourself this power.
Vote for Pedro
What is interesting, is that more likely than not, this bill will not actually make it... Politics being what they are, I really doubt that the parties have already determined their true stance on the issue.
Until that happens, everyone is making an individual decision stating a preference for or against said bill, with the occasional consortium working together. Wait till the car manufacturers make a few choice calls to their representatives, "explaining" the situation in the terms that politicians understand best- $$$. Without the bling bling, the parties will quickly see to it that their opinions become inline with the manufacturers. All hail the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, the MPAA of your Honda.
>> I generally love anything new and techie...but, I really miss the days of simpler cars.
I miss them too. I miss having to tune my car twice a year, change the plugs once a year, have two thermostats, and all the other goodies that went with simpler cars.
Now I am stuck buying a new car and not having to do anything to it for the first 100,000 miles except have someone look at it.
Oh for the good old days.
It isn't just Cadillacs. Chrysler vehicles since the early 1980's have a diagnostic sequence that you can run easily.
See http://www.allpar.com/fix/codes.html for details. Through the mid-1990's, you usually:
* Start with the key in "off"
* Within about five seconds, turn the key "on-off-on-off-on". Leave it in on the last "on".
* Watch the "Check Engine" or "Service Engine Soon" light. Count the blinks. Digits are seperated by small pauses, individual trouble codes are seperated by longer pauses. The "end of codes" code is 5-5.
See the above link for more information.
I wouldn't be suprised if one of the ultimate goals of the open-car-computer push is to make it so that anyone can download the most recent engine computer code and flash it into the engine controller. Stealerships charge you a lot to do this simple procedure, and there is no reason why you or an independent mechanic shouldn't be able to use the common OBD-2 interfaces to upload new control software.
Jim
I agree there's something nice about simple cars, but at the same time, today's cars are far more reliable and fuel efficient than they were "back in the day".
You can get a 400-hp 'Vette today (that's flywheel HP, and would have probably been rated 500+ back in the 60s) that will outperform nearly any muscle car from back in the day. It will also outcorner any street car from back then (not to mention nearly any factory stock car from today save for a few exotics), and still happily cruise along at 29-31 MPG on the highway. You couldn't get that combination of performance and efficiency in the 1960's for _any_ price.
It is a bummer that cars are more complicated now, but there has been a huge positive side as well. They start on cold winter days with no effort at all and run for 200,000 miles.
For those of you who like this bill, please write your representitives and make sure they include MOTORCYCLES!!!
Currently, automobiles are required to have either OBD I, or OBD II diagnostic ports, but motorcycles are currently exempt from this requirement.
More and more motorcycles are starting to use Electronic Control Units (ECU's), and if you have a bike with an ECU and something goes wrong, you are COMPLETELY at the mercy of dealer repair shop. There are few aftermarket error code readers that work with motorcycles.
You're completely missing the point. Yes, there are lots of aftermarket things you can do to a car to make it more powerful. However, those things tend to complicate and increase the cost of the car, not simplify it. I drive a Dodge Stratus Coupe RT, which is essentially a slightly modified Mitsubishi Eclipse. I've done a few mods and the next one I want is to install a supercharger from Ripp. Supercharger, headers and installation (including tuning) is going to set me back about six grand. The post I was responding to was suggesting a return to simple, inexpensive power cars, not to just getting horsepower out of your car without regard for cost.
Additionally, if you look at lots of these aftermarket mods, they're marked for track use only. Installing them means your car is no longer street legal. In many states, you can get away with it indefinitely, but a car manufacturer would never be able to put a model which incorporated those features on the dealer lot.
"The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.
Make me a computer controlled car with an onboard webserver and a USB port under the dash that can plug into a laptop. Now I can get all my error codes, remap the fuel injection, whatever. This stuff is already computer controlled, and if a $30 router can have a web administration interface, there's no reason a car couldn't either.
If the environmental gestapo won the argument, why are there so many giant SUVs on the road that (literally) get 10-12 mpg in the city???
Be happy. Nothing else matters.
I have a 1994 Ford Thunderbird LX with the 3.8L V6 engine. It's run by Ford's EEC-IV computer. I got a CEL last week, and went to AutoZone to have it read. I plugged in a reader that is nothing more than a jumper wire and a LED, and looked up the code in the back of the book. Wow, that was easy. I found out later than you can do it with so much as a paperclip.
My parent's 2003 Excursion (company car) also had a CEL, so we took that down to AutoZone. It has the 6.8L(?) Triton V10 engine and EEC-V control. Same thing. Plugged in an OBD-II tester, got the code, left. What's the problem?
...or is there a whole other set of "SooperSekrit" codes that cannot be read by such tools as AutoTap and others?
No, AutoTap isn't free, but the base and enhanced code sets are available for Ford/GM/Chrysler.
And there are other, cheaper models around.
Or do these guys want the programming and the reader (cable) for free from the maufacturers?
Here you go. It's basically the old Lotus with whatever engine you put in.
You can buy them built from a few places, usually with a Ford inline 4 from the Focus. Get the SVX version. The engines take care of passing emissions.
Search Autoweek.com for Caterham.
2.4l turbocharged inline 4.
230hp, 250ft-lbs of torque (and those numbers are NOT inflated)
In a neon. (yuck, but whatever)
For 21 grand.
Oh, and feel free to stop over by Mopar and snag the stage 1 (240hp, 260ft-lbs), stage 2 (265hp, 280ft-lbs), Stage 2 w/ Turbo Toys (280hp, 300ft-lbs) or stage 3 upgrades (300hp, 300ft-lbs).
Muscle cars are still out there. They just had to hide them from the lawyers and tree-huggers.
That said, the Republican's plan to "adjust" the environmental laws by simply throwing them all out is just as extreme as the Green Party's dream of outlawing gasoline. There's a sensible middle ground somewhere, but we haven't quite found it.
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
...the Farouks of Hazzard. Just a good ol' boys...
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
This is really changing anyway, voluntarily by the automakers:
http://www.autosar.org/find02.php
Even adjusted for inflation, $30k is much more expensive than the muscle cars of yesteryear. However, if that's your price range take a look at the new Pontiac GTO. Base price of $32k, 350HP 5.7L V-8, 0 to 60 in 5.3. Sweet car.
"The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.
It also shouldn't be hard to program a microcontroller to translate between that and RS232 at some sane baud rate. I'd be surprised if there weren't any instructions for building cheap PIC-based cables.
> I've never lived in a state that checked your exhaust. And if you did...couldn't you fix it for the test...then, undo it for normal driving when finished?
:-)
Yep, lotsa people do that too. It really depends on where you live, and how vigilant local police are. If you have racing slicks and a 600HP engine in a 80s camaro and are doing burnouts all over town they will probably take an interest in your car, but if you play it safe, say "Yes, sir" and "No, sir", you will probably be ok.
If you are learning about cars, like me, an excellent book is the "Automotive Encyclopedia". It covers general car basics and is very comprehesive but also easy to understand. You could probably pick up an older copy of it off of ebay or somewhere for a good price.
-Comedian
No...You can't smoke the tires because it doesn't have enought torque. Tire smoking is also hampered by the fact that it is All-Wheel Drive.
There should be a law against that.
Best place to find car info - groups.google.com.
Good advice. There may be better, however. Many vehicles, especially those with a cult following (VW, many flavors of 4x4s and large trucks) have user groups on the internet. The TDR has saved me plenty of money on my Ram. Common problems, sources for parts, sneaky dealer tricks--all there. And the ability to ask a question, and get an answer within an hour from a dozen guys that have been there before is well worth the $35/yr I pay (the quarterly magazine is nice, too). Even without the $35, people can peruse the forums if they're cheap.
Also, as an above poster noted, Autozone will scan your codes for free. The teenagers behind the counter usually won't know what it means or how to fix it, but you can take that code, Google for it, consult your friendly local user's group for it, or read it straight from the factory service manual--I paid $90 for mine, straight from Chrysler, and it's the same one the techs use.
Maybe there are car companies that intentionally obfuscate this stuff, but I've never had a vehicle throw a code and not be able to figure out what it meant.
--Ribald
ahh... so much easier to "hack" the old systems. My 87 won't pass at idle to (literally) save it's life, but knock it into "emissions test mode" by popping the anti tamper caps, bumping the revs and making sure the engine is hot and no prob... Except that I'm awfully close to the limit that they allow for idling... one year I'm going to get a stickler and be refused the test. Solution? "hack" the tach as well!!! ;)
I agree, handling has improved a lot over the years. I love horsepower in a vehicle, but I also like the go around corners fast. So I compromised and got myself a RX8. Great handling, good power and over just a great car to drive.
12, I drive a full size van and 12 in the city is like a pipe dream! The enviromental gestapo hasn't won, but that have made it so that my current van puts out 1/2 the "emissions" at the same mpg as my old van did. The emssions systems today do a much better job at filtering then those even 10 years ago.....That's a "win" for them, but it doesn't mean they have "won".
Reputable people don't need access to their car's computers. If you want access you must be a thief of some sort. Oh, some Free Car/Open Car hippy here will whine "But I want to be able to repair my own car," or "I want to be able to hire a third party to repair my car." Yeah, right. Most people can't fix their own cars, having the ability to open the hood and work on their car is totally worthless. Letting the millions of thieves in just so that a few freaks can try (and probably fail) to fix their own cars is unacceptable. Only the original manufacturer can really fix it. Fortunately I think we can expect to see EDLA (End Driver License Agreements) that will make this nice and clear to everyone.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
The Error Code and the Datalogger Info is not "The Source Code".
Does the average Garage really want the source code?
No He wants 0x76 = Bad Map sensor
It ia already the law that getting your Oil changed at jiffy lube does not void the warrenty.
Some car makers already tried that one. Tring it a new way onlt Invited the Gov' to act.
My 0000 0010 cents
Doesn't Congress realize the security implications of this? Have we had enough burdensome regulation and government red tape mucking up the best of the free enterprise sysetm that made this country great?
Hackers could hijack my car for illicit purposes, such as terrorism and kiddiepron!
Not to mention that original parts go through quality inspection processes that cheap aftermarket flybynight outfits don't do!
</pre-emptive shill from lobbyists>
"Provided by the management for your protection."
throw a monster engine into a decent body of a car...keep the interior minimalist...with real perfomance, and keep the price reasonable.
Sounds like a bare Camaro my friends' parents had around 1984. Reasonable power, looked low and angular, no real perks, lower in price than the posh sports cars were then. Unreliable as heck, too, which is maybe why they sold okay but not great. Next to the new cars, it was a money pit.
I shopped for cars a couple of years back. The Passat and the Maxima were two sides of what you're talking about, in a way. Passats were engineered nicer than the Maxima, they shared lots of Audi parts, but they started out with a 4-cylinder that was much less powerful. Nissan put a lot more engine in the Altima, and priced it a bit lower, but it was just less refined in almost every way -- an okay car with punch for less. Muscle types were getting the Nissan and "chipping" it. Sort of a new way to do the same thing.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
The difference between this and DVDs is that the motivation is anti-competitive behavior. While the DVD people can arguably do this to prevent piracy, the auto manufacturer's only motivation is to prevent access by non-dealership mechanics.
My mechanic at the time was debating whether or not to spend a few grand on a diagnostic computer for whatever company was starting to do this. I guess at first they just made the diagnostic computers very expensive, and soon after just stopped selling them to non-dealership mechanics.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
Oh, I definitely agree. I own BMWs, and there is a great following for them on the internet. unofficialbmw.com is a great place, and even break things down by model. If you own something with a rabid cult following like the E30 M3 you might even be better off than going to a dealer. I have found that I know more about my car than the service people at the local dealership. But that might depend on your dealer. You can just as easily get a shop who has a few M3 fans working there. But you still have to pay their fees. You are better off finding a good independent who knows what they are doing.
One thing you can do is to join a car club. The BMW CCA is fantastic for only $35/yr. Through it you can get connections to good independent mechanics local to you.
Just this weekend I replaced the fuel pump in my 97 318i. I called my independent mechanic and described the problem. (stuttering, occasionally dying) He asked "how many miles on the car?" I told him 80k, and he immediately said "probably the fuel pump, they usually only last that long." After talking a little more, it was clear the fuel pump was the problem. When I asked him if he thought I could handle the replacement myself, he said yes. Try and get THAT from a dealer. (I also have the Bentley manual, which was great). I was able to replace it in about an hour. That saved me $90 labor right there, and the price difference between the dealer and an online parts store was $55. So I saved at least $145. The dealer could have charged me another $99 diagnostic fee, and if the install would have taken 61 minutes, I am sure I would have been charged for 1.5 hours labor.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I just went to chevy.com, and the most expensive vette you can get is 60k (and that's if you want the special edition z06. You can get a fully loaded z06 (non-special edition) for 54k and a low end vette for under 50k.
Also, make sure you account for inflation and the extras you get in today's cars when you compare.
Check out these guys: Ultima Sports Car Ltd.
OK, it's a kit car, but I think you can talk them into assembling it for you. Including engine (in the 500hp range) you should be able to get it below $40k - but OTOH, it can beat the pants off 99.9% of all other cars... 0-60 in under 4 secs, top speed around 200 mph, cornering capabilities to make a superbike driver envious... what else did you want?
Oh, yes, and you can service it yourself. :-)
Regards, Ulli
Simple things should be simple, complex things should be possible.
if your car has OBD-2 go to www.obd-2.com and buy the cable for it. I do this when I have to pull error codes for diagnostics on my honda. this works with any US vechile 1996 or newer. There are a few things I have to take it to the dealer for though, such as if I needed to have my immobilizer reprogrammed for my ignition keys, or stuff dealing with the airbags. But 99% of the other things I can do myself without the dealer with the use of the OBD-2.com cable and a notebook PC.
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
I resent that...i get 13.
No fun cars?
Where the hell have YOU been? There are showroom stock cars available today that would smoke the race cars from the '60s.
They also happen to be 10x cleaner and rather more fuel efficient. Where's the bad?
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Most of what you're complaining about is not the result of cars being designed by computers. There are far more regulations on safety and fuel-efficiency now than there were when muscle cars were sold at dealerships. Also, not everyone wants to be a mechanic in their spare time. Computer diagnostics have made cars easier to troubleshoot and maintain. Opening up these diagnostics to everyone would only make this easier. Of course, the manufacturers have a right to protect their IP as well.
While it is all fine and dandy to claim the bill is to help out the service market the fact of the mater is this bill is help counter what the automotive industry has been doing lately. In the last several years as demand for SUVs and more horsepower vehicles Auto manufacturers are getting more and more clever with emissions testing. Today's cars can figure out when they are being emissions tested, between a certain set of operation parameters (like CARB's dyno-tests) and certain requests from the OBD-II interface the ECU can easily figure out what is being done to the vehicle and tune its behavior accordingly. There are many, many reasons for this; some of which are to give the vehicle more performance on the road, others to counter some legacy laws of the EPA such as the rule saying all vehicles must have catalytic converters, converters that have to be doing something, however today's modern electronically controlled vehicles under steady state burn fuel clean enough that they don't emit measurable levels of unburned fuel, thus the engine has to be de-tuned to meet the EPA rule saying cats have to be doing something. Detroit Diesel got in some serious trouble a little while back when the EPA found out it was detecting emissions testing and adjusting performance parameters accordingly. By forcing the car manufacturers to open up their bus protocols the EPA can make sure that there is no special emissions test mode that the ECU is going into and make sure the numbers are real. I doubt anything from this law will help the automotive service industry.
Lewie is right - he wins the cookie today! :)
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
" I miss when you could drive a stock car off the showroom floor...and it had enough power to smoke the tires for a couple of blocks...I often think that if you could get one car executive to take a 'chance'...and try the old idea behind the original GTO's and later other muscle cars...throw a monster engine into a decent body of a car...keep the interior minimalist...with real perfomance, and keep the price reasonable. I gotta think these things would sell like hotcakes..."
'67 GTO
236 ci V6 had 165HP weighed 3430 lbs.
428 ci V8 had 360HP weighed 3515
'04 Mustang
231 ci V6 has 190HP weighs 3290 lbs.
281 ci super-charged (Cobra) V8 has 390HP. car weighs 3665, gets 17mpg around town.
I can't argue that the '67 GTO isn't better looking, because it is. But in the '04 Mustang you can stop, turn, and survive a crash much better than you could in a '67 GTO, while burning less gas and polluting less per gallon burned. The V6 Mustang starts at about $18k sticker price, 5 minutes on Google doesn't reveal to me the original price of the GTO (which should be inflation-adjusted for direct comparison) but I see used classic GTOs for $15-31k.
The '05 Mustang doesn't look so much like it was designed on a CAD machine to be boring (unlike the new GTO) and the new 3-valve OHC V6 will get over 200HP. The slightly updated all-aluminum 4.6L SOHC V8 is going to be rated at over 300HP and come in at about $25k.
If you really want an old muscle-car, then you have to buy an old muscle-car. But if you want a new muscle-car, there it is, faster, safer, and more-efficient.
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
To anyone who says this is government interfering with private business, or the free market, or whatever, let's remember that "intellectual property" is a government-granted "right" to begin with. If the government wasn't already regulating the market in favor of these companies, with copyrights, patents, and trade secret laws, they wouldn't have any protections against anyone getting hold of their secrets in the first place.
Liberty in your lifetime
Oh, and I forgot: the other big thing that changed from '67 to '04 is that most people under 25 can't afford the insurance on a coupe with a V8. It isn't the fault of the car maker exectutives that those things don't "sell like hotcakes."
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
That's not necessarily true. That's usually just a disclaimer. Some aftermarket parts that are for "off road use only" are perfectly fine for street use (as far as safety goes). I have a very hard time believing that most parts (actually, not claimed) meant for the track are any less safe than their street counterpart. (This falls back on my ideal that track cars are generally safer than street cars -- they're usually built with crashing, rolling, etc in mind...unlike a street car, which is built for convinence). My feeling is that the manufacturer doesn't want to deal with the liability of some dumbass crashing his car and suing Garrett, KKK, or Greddy because their turbo (or turbo kit) made their car too fast for them to drive. Some parts, like stainless steel brake lines make the brake feel better (arguably, adding a margin of safety to a skilled driver) -- but usually aren't recommended for street because they require more maintenance (replacement). OTOH, some products, like great big driving lights aren't street legal period. ...now emmissions are a different story, although many will guarantee that you'll be able to meet CA's emmissions. For example, see Flyin' Miata's page. Anyway, what it really comes down to is your common sense for example -- don't use a pure track brake pad on the street: unlike a street pad, they need to be warmed up to work, are grabby, and don't work in the rain (unless they're special application). OTOH, a turbo or supercharger kit may be find for your needs and safe/legal on the street (unless it requires 103 octane race fuel)...or a fuel cell which is for "track use only".
-Turkey
'Sorry,' came the reply. 'If the check light's not on, there's no diagnostic codes for us to look up. We can't fix it unless we know what's wrong.'
Nonsense. There are many situations where the level of problem is not enough to trigger the idiot light. A random, partial misfire for instance.
Some problems need to be repeated within a certain time, or over a series of driving sysles to trip the light.
Find a new dealer.
I bought a 2003 Pontiac Grand Am recently, in looking through the owner's manual at the specifications for replacement lamps, I find that the headlamp and driving light replacement bulbs are not listed. Below the little table in the book, it reads "for any bulbs not listed, contact your dealer."
So now, instead of going to Auto Zone to pick up a replacement lamp, I have to go to the dealer and pay probably what will be an inflated price. This is basic maintenance, not some complex procedure. I don't like the idea that if I'm driving across the country and one of my headlamps burns out, I can't go to the local parts shop and get a replacement, so I risk getting a ticket until I can get to a town with 1) a GM dealership and 2) a GM dealership during business hours.
The car manaufacturers should be forced to standardize on a common interface so any PC can connect to the on board computer using a USB or serial connection to read basic system information. Maybe not change critical settings, but a car owner should have reasonable access to information relating to the vehicle. Sort of like printing out a test page on a laser printer, which lists various settings and other useful information.
Excessive drinking is fine...in moderation.
I'm disappointed to only be getting about 47mpg in my Smart Roadster
Then again we pay about $6 per gallon over for petrol here in England.
A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
The availability of cheap power mods mean that the engine was poorly tuned at the factory. The manufacturers simply don't do that anymore. The market is competitive enough that they do better by tuning their engines as aggressively as possible.
Sure, you can get a cold air intake and a chip, and each might be good for as much as 30 horsepower (if you're really lucky). But engines come from the factory with the high-performance hop up stuff (like precision honed intakes and ports) that used to be in the grasp of a shadetree mechanic.
Look, the old ways are gone. There are lots of opportunities for improving your car's performance. The techniques are just different than they used to be.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
You can't smoke the tires on the WRX because it doesn't have enough horsepower.
I guess you're kinda right, but the reason it can't roast 'em is because the WRX, like all Subarus, is all wheel drive. It takes some serious engine mojo to cook all four tires, especially with the computer traction control systems that car has which are designed to put power to the road rather than spin tires.
Disable the traction control and disconnect the rear driveshaft. Then that WRX will cook the tires on command. Especially if it's the 297HP STI model. Rev up, watch the boost gauge, and drop the clutch. If the drivetrain holdsup, those tires will disappear in a nice thick cloud of burnt rubber.
I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
And those engines sucked gas like battle tanks and could "smoke the tires" for a block because a "fat" tire back then was about like an M70 truck tire. Stick a set of 70 series tires on a "modern" mustang or corvette and you'd be able to boil the back hides bare in a single afternoon of playing.
That's the problem with nostalgia: it's never an accurate reflection of reality. WELL DESIGNED modern cars can outrun between lights, outhandle on the twisties, and outdistance those old cars between pit stops. ANd they'll do it all with so much more comfort it ain't even funny.
Yeah, it'd be great if you got an old GT40 or Cobra. But for the other 99.995% of the "old" cars out there it's all about the looks. If only you could get a 2/3 size replica of a '67 Mustang with that menacing front end and a decent suspension - and an interior that wasn't made from cardboard and tin - it'd be great. Barring that, I think I'll stick with a later model and dig on the 300hp engine that gets 20MPG and turns the car across the finish line in 13 seconds or so.
Uh huh. So your highly tuned old engine is more efficient than the new Ford computer controlled engine. Big shocker there. Considering that expecting Ford to do a good job tuning anything, particularly a low-end truck engine, is like hoping Microsoft will innovate.
Your comparison is apples to tuna fish. I'm certain that I could show you numerous modern factory engines that meet or exceed your specs your customized Lincoln.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
I have never, ever, ever seen a car that was designed by a computer.
I've seen dozens that were designed by a committee, or a focus group. Most of those are boring. (See the new GTO and Malibu and Impala and everything else that GM and Ford are selling to Joe Public...with the conspicuous exception of the 05 Mustang which does not suck.)
Just remember: Your late 70's and early 80's American sedans were not "designed by computers", but they still looked like ass.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Hah! I kill me.
this is pretty scary. socialize all commodities... give everyone an equal chance...
this country becomes more and more what our good friend Ayn Rand has been warning us about.
When I lived in CA (late 80s) I had a mid-70s Pontiac Behemoth. It spewed oil smoke (a quart per tank of gas! But it was brown, not blue smoke). I had it emissions tested at a local garage, and it always passed after the tester tweaked the distributor. This tweaking always made the engine ping and act sluggish. I'd tweak it right back after I got home. Hello power.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Move to Alabama. The land of no emission standards or inspections of any kind. If it has an engine and moves, it's ok here. I've seen cars smoke so bad that I couldn't see the car in front of me.
I guess the insurance killed you before you did, eh? Not a bad thing.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Did you ecer own a GTO? One of my best friends in High school did in the '70s. He (and others) told me that GTO meant "Get Tools Out". Manys the time I'd go to his house after school and he'd be working on something on that car.
No electrons were harmed creating this post, though some may have been subjected to electrical and/or magnetic fields.
1. Every time they repainted the lines on the road you would have to buy a new car.
2. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason, and you would just accept this, restart and drive on.
3. Occasionally, executing a maneuver would cause your car to stop and fail and you would have to reinstall the engine. For some strange reason, you would accept this too.
4. You could only have one person in the car at a time, unless you bought "Car95" or "CarNT". But, then you would have to buy more seats.
5. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable, five times as fast, twice as easy to drive but would only run on 5 percent of the roads.
6. The Macintosh car owners would get expensive Microsoft upgrades to their cars, which would make their cars run much slower.
7. The oil, gas and alternator warning lights would be replaced by a single "general car default" warning light.
8. New seats would force everyone to have the same size butt.
9. The airbag system would say "are you sure?" before going off.
10. If you were involved in a crash, you would have no idea what happened.
Well, at least Win2k is "open" source....
Looks like we're right in the middle of the "good old days" of computing!
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
My Mitsubishi Diamonte is 10 years old. Nearest dealer is 40 mi. Towing cost $100. Local shop cannot access computer after 10 years. I have to take time from work and rent a car if I need anything that requires access to the on-board computer. After an auto is no longer in warranty, the codes should be released IMHO, but I do like the idea of me owning everything necessary to keep my car in best operating condition - All diagnostics should be available to my choice of service shop. (Dealer quoted $3000 for total service and repairs. Local shop repaired for $300. - computer not needed for main repairs.) Go Figure!
If you are running a repair shop adn do not invest in the scan tools for the most common vehicles you service, then you are in teh wrong business. Chrysler, GM and Ford all have their scan tools available for sale. As a Service Technician, you also should be able to diagnose many problems without a scan tool. Most ASE certified technicians are pretty proficient with diagnosing problems before they get a scan tool out. Furthermore, a scan tool trouble code may only be present when something affects the emission controls on a vehicle, not on all system failures (Such as the cited automatic climate controls.) Additionally, sites like Alldata (http://www.alldatapro.com/includes/main.jsp) have full service manuals available online to troubleshoot vehicles up to the current year. Tehre is no secret to this stuff, it's just getting educated about where to find your information. As as side note, the newer Chrysler vehicles equipped with the digital odometer will display OBDII Trouble codes without a scan tool.
I pointed out the after-market computer replacements that are available for most cars as well. Again, legallity is questionable. With the notable exception of California (where illegal street mods seem most popular), most states wont notice mods.
Here in Minnesota, I was given the carberator choice by a reputable mechanic for a 1999 Kia. Basically it was a $800 job for a $600 "fix it the right way". I went with the right way by price, not preference.
It has nothing to do with safety. A properly perpared racecar is much safer than the average street car (discounting safety features such as turn signals and brake lights). It's about clean air regs. I can install a set of headers, high-flow cats and an aftermarket muffler and significantly increase my horsepower without increasing the polution my engine makes. However, because I modified my catalytic converters, it's illegal.
"The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.
Damn it, wasn't finished. Meant to hit preview and hit reply.
Californians have to have their car inspected every couple of years. This is to ensure that their stock components are not failing. If you put on aftermarket parts, it doesn't matter if you meet the test standards are not. Unless those parts are CARB approved (and most are not), you're illegal. So long as you pass the test, you may very well get away with it because no one will know that you're running illegal aftermarket parts. But it doesn't change the fact that what you did is illegal, and you risk fines or possibly worse (not sure what the max penalty is) if you get caught.
"The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.
Pfffft.
What makes you think gas hog=polluter?
All it really means is they're not very efficient.
Just once, I'd like it if someone called me "Sir".
Without adding, "You're creating a scene."
And it also becomes a new step for carmakers to pull chips in lawsuits to verify that no one has tinkered with it. What happens when someone sues because something failed and caused an accident because of change in tuning that the carmaker purposely avoided? Car stalls during a left hand turn and smacko! If I was a carmaker I wouldn't want this kind of liability either.
30 HP from a CAI? I suppose it's possible (most things are) but it's extremely remote. That intake would have to be so constricted that the engine was barely running for a simple CAI to make that much difference. A CAI is usually going to give you from 1 to 5 HP, with most applications being much closer to 1 than 5.
Certain cars benefit from chips because the factory profile is a trade off between performance and streetability. Aftermarket chips shift the profile in favor of the former at the expense of the latter. Still, 30 HP is a lot to expect from that as well.
Yes, there are lots of ways to improve performance but usually the amount of power is directly proportional to the expense of the mod. To get a signficant gain, you have to invest a significant amount of money. That was the point of my original post. You can't just stick a big engine in a small car and let 'er rip anymore.
"The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.
I never said gas hog was bad solely because it pollutes but a gas hog *is* a polluter. You burn more gas and assuming all other things are equal you release a greater quantity of pollution. Unless you are saying that your massive SUV somehow burns fuel more cleanly than smaller cars?
:)
At any rate, pollution is definitely bad. But so is consuming non-renewable resourced at twice (+) the rate of people who choose to drive smaller cars. Obviously that argument doesn't have any effect on most Americans. Neither does the argument that driving a bigger car increases American dependence on foreign oil. I find that odd but I'm just an ig'nant Canadian living in this mess of a country.
Be happy. Nothing else matters.
The auto companies would not have joined a voluntary system mentioned if they hadn't known what they were doing was verging in to antitrust. Their claims in the article are PR smokescreens and spin.
That's an interesting angle, do you have any links on it?
Life is too short to proofread.
Did you totally miss MY point?
No, you can't get cheap horsepower from engines, because the FACTORY ALREADY USES THOSE TECHNIQUES.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
I would just like to take a moment and than you for the imagery.:)
Anyone still using superchargers? They are basically the same thing, but a supercharger is powered by the drivetrain, while a turbocharger is powered by exhaust gas.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
The guy is telling an honest anecdotal story which is relevant to the article. Just because you don't agree with the implications of what he's saying doesn't mean he's a troll.
Wake the fuck up, mods.
Posting logged-in because I am pissed off enough not to care about some imbecile modding me down for pointing this out.
+++ATH0
Yeah -- in my haste to hide my opinions about clean air regs, I failed to mention them. You're right...and in this case, the law, however well intentioned, is bullshit.
-Turkey
A number of companies have tried this. Those types of cars end up being limited production runs because, well, they just don't sell. Subaru WRX STi, Mustang Saleen (there was a stripped down empty shell version)... pretty much every company has tried this and failed. They sell a few to enthusiasts, but most people who spend $20k+ on a car want things like a radio. Granted, they're not as simple to work on as cars built in the 60's, but they CAN'T be. I used to own a '66 Mustang and I can say for certain there's no way you could make that vehicle meet any sort of emissions standards without a reasonably complex emissions system.
A lot of complexity adds to a lot of power, emissions control, and gas mileage that you couldn't get in those muscle cars. Those 5.0L late 60's Ford engines turned maybe 225HP with a lot of tuning, got 15mpg, and polluted like crazy. Nowadays you can get a 2.5L 4cyl Subaru with 225HP or a 4.7L 8cyl Ford with 300+HP.p>
But I digress.
You can adjust them if you know how to replace the cars' chips.
The idea is the same, the method has just changed.
+++ATH0
Changing the laws usually involves a very long an complicated process, where the automobile manufacturers are likely to moan and complain and lobby even after any legislation is passed.
As an alternative, or even as an addition, consider
* The government is a very large purchaser of vehicles for all sorts of purposes - transport, police, maintenance, military, car pools, inspectors etc - it is therefore likely that there is a massive purchasing bueracracy to go with this.
* The purchasing beaurarcracy usually drives billions in purchasing and has the ability to set the requirements for goods to be purchased.
So, perhaps the government should REQUIRE, through its own purchasing (where no legislation would be required, that all vehicles it purchases MUST have open standardised diagnostics) given the likely scale of purchases the government makes, the automobile manufacturers would be left to either Do It (in which case its done, and there is at best its adoption into all cars, at worst only government vehicles - but there is at least a fleet of vehicles out there you can target), or to Not Do It (and face allegations of collusion, or provide a trigger for the government to legislate it with some justification)
I'll admit that there are a few flaws:
* You can still lobby the government to force purchasing not to mandate the changes.
* The manufacturers could (perhaps the best option from their perspective) provide free equipment to access the data.
* Manufacturers could do it only to government vehicles (but at least then there would be a large number of vehicles out there in the second-hand market. Which would eventually lead to discussions about why the manufcaturers are maintaining two seperate systems.
* Takes a long time.
This kind of problem can be solved generally in two ways - purchaser preference, and legislative involvement. In most situations though, individual purchasers have very little leverage - big purcashers on the other hand, have a LOT of leverage.
Cheers.
Boricle.
"For example, if you have foglights, they have to work or the wiring needs to be cut all the way back to the harness. Lame."
Can someone explain the justification for this to me? No, really. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
+++ATH0
faster ? yes
....
more efficient? definitely yes
more fun?
60's musclecar vs.. honduh "type R"
This seems to me that the parties supporting this legislation want the codes and data for non-engine related codes. For those of you who don't know, cars made after 1996 have to be OBD-II(2) compliant. OBD stands for On-Board Diagnostics. The OBD-II system has to monitor the same set of engine functions and some transmission functions, use the same codes and have the same connector no matter what car. A 1999 BMW will have the exact same engine diagnostic connector as 1999 Ford Escort, and the basic engine trouble codes will be the same. The problem seems to be that repair persons and DIYers like me DEMAND more information pertaining to transmission, brake, air bag, electric seat, climate control, electronic suspension and various other modules. Hell, a lot of Fords use one module for everything called GEM (Generic Electronic Module) which control everything from windshield wipers to sprak timing. This crap about companies wanting fuel tables or component design specs is complete crap. Anyone remember a couple of years ago when various groups wanted this type of info and the car companies used the straw argument that "giving away the entire computer code would allow people to bypass theft prevention systems." No one wanted all the codes, they wanted the non-generic codes. It would be nice to find out why my brothers air suspension is acting up while not having to pay one hours rate so a grease monkey can hook up a scanner for 5 mins.
Mod him up.
This Unenet archive has some resources.
gewg_
Is there anything to stop you /buying/ the repair manuals?
/give/ you detailed information about their (our) products beyond that necessary to use them? Do you apply this logic to all of your purchases? If not, why not?
Is there any reason in particular why auto manufacturers should
The engine is emissions legal, but the chassis doesn't have a chance of passing a DOT crash test. The way it squeaks by that requirement is that it's registered as a kit car or custom construction. If you want do-it-yourself simplicity in a new, street-legal ride, custom construction is still possible in most states. All kinds of things like street rods with '32 Ford body shells, Cobra replicas, Beck 550 Spyder replicas, and the Caterham 7's you pointed out. Just remember it won't be cheap, especially if you pay a shop $80/hr to assemble it. Mass production does have its advantages.
When you combine this with Cramer's post about uploading horsepower...
Can't you just see the ads?--DOWNLOAD AN L-88 NOW! CLICK HERE!!!
Reminds me of when Toyota donated a 4-banger pickup truck to my buddy's college engineering department.
After they were thru souping it up, the prony brake said 1900hp--for about 20 seconds--then a connecting rod turned loose.
gewg_
I know that your probably just repeating an urban legend.
But still, didn't you wonder how the hell someone who gets their fleet serviced by a guy advertising on a CB channel got put in charge in the first place?
And why they still have a job, for that matter?
Debunking the "59 Deceits"
In other words, it's more fun to rally against imaginary adversaries than it is to open your eyes and realize things aren't so bad.
Debunking the "59 Deceits"
The guy is telling an honest anecdotal story which is relevant to the article. Just because you don't agree with the implications of what he's saying doesn't mean he's a troll.
How is this flamebait? He is just expressing his satisfaction with the article, and how the mods screwed up in modding this as a troll.
Wake the fuck up, mods.
Nevermind.
http://use.perl.org
It's the individual drivers that get their trucks jacked up by the guy at the truck stop, the fleet owners/managers do everything they can to prevent this from happening.
If you're a driver and can circumvent the speed limiting, you can get in a quickie with your girlfriend in Gary IN and still make your stop on time.
--If 50,000 people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
60's musclecar vs...something that doesn't have a solid rear axle and can therefore negotiate corners.
Yeah. You can have your hemi penis-mobile. I'd rather have a real sports car. No, Honda does not make one.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
I *am* an actual mechanic as well as a former professional coder and current gentoo/gnu/linux zealot. A big reason why these codes are not available to the public is Snap-on and matco cant charge you out the ass for diagnostic equipment, updates etc. I know since we are a small independent shop and can't afford some modules for the tester that we have had to send some vw businnes for a reaming at the dealership. Dealerships are by and large ripoof artists on a huge scale. I could go on but I have to go work on my ride *rolls eyes*
Panel F, Relay #70
As a reformed mechanical engineer, I have to take issue with this one. Horsepower numbers were not inflated back then (well, most of them weren't), but horsepower was measured differently. It was measured at the engine (gross horsepower), not at the wheel (net horsepower). The difference, drivetrain loss, was not accounted for.
mustangs are gay.
the 351 is shit
stfu
It depends on where you live. Houston has a smog check program, but last I checked, Austin didn't. I'm back in California now which has smog checks everywhere, but in some counties you don't need to do another smog check if you are renewing registration or transferring a car to another family member, so in these counties you can smog once and then make whatever swaps - of course, there ARE smog equipment checkpoints, and you could get in trouble if you get caught...
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Spains elections this weekend have shown terrorism works. The timing of the subway bombings to the election were no coincidence, but planned to deter Spain from participating in rebuilding Iraq. And it worked. Spain, elected a socialist govt., at odds with polls conducted before the bombing. This govt. has resolved to pull troops out of Iraq. So, who's the real winner. Clearly the terrorists have won, since the killing of 200 people produced the result they wanted. Thank you Spain, for showing the world terrorism can work, making it that much more unsafe for everyone. Dumb fucks.
As you point out, the nice thing is that cars keep themselves in tune, they're self-diagnosing (if you have the codes, which is what we're here to talk about) and they're very efficient as a result of all of this. A modern fuel injected car which is willing to put emissions first is probably more kind to the environment without a catalyst (assuming it's programmed to know it doesn't have one) than the older cars were even with them because it uses the O2 sensor to control its mixture specifically to be efficient - efficient is powerful. But, let's face it, horsepower has declined. That's okay, weight has gone down incredibly too. My first car was a 1960 dodge dart phoenix (2 door) which was supposedly something like 4700 lb. Cars intended to fulfill the same function as that one today weigh only around 3000 pounds, naturally they don't need 240hp and 340ft-lb. When you put it that way my 2750lb, 165hp car seems fairly spry, even though I'm constantly wishing for more pedal :)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I drive a car made by his company and the Service Engine Light has *never* worked properly - it went on shortly after I bought the car but no one could find anything wrong to make it do that until a few years into owning it when something finally DID create a code. Then I had to take it to a dealership to have the computer chip flashed to correct the problem, except the numbnuts I was dealing with had no idea what I was talking about,they just wanted me to bring it in so they could "identify the problem" elsewhere in my car and fix it.
The point has been well-made that the more complex something is, the more that can go wrong with it. I would prefer a much more stripped-down car, I don't need a GPS and an email system and an electronic voice giving me verbal directions to get to the grocery store. I'm very practical about my technology - gimme good mileage and low maintenance, and I'm happy.
I don't believe this has anything to do with IP - it's all about protecting profits and forcing people to take their cars to inconvenient and overpriced dealerships to have simple problems taken care of. I'll ride an effing horse to work before I'll be shaken down every time I need an oil change.
YET ONE MORE story I reported on a LONG time ago and got boned, once again, by the moderators. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. When you folks want to hear an original story, be sure to call me next time, rather than waiting for the moderator's pet dweebs to quote some article posted on some other site like they always do, rather than generate original content.
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves
Feh, breathing is highly overrated.
I'd rather put hight restrictions on the vehicles, I don't think people realy need a suv so tall the hood is level with the roof of my Tempo.
all that vertical distance has to create a fair bit of drag
--- As to make my comment seem, by comparison, more intelegent... doodie doodie doodie poop poop poop!
I often think that if you could get one car executive to take a 'chance'...and try the old idea behind the original GTO's and later other muscle cars...throw a monster engine into a decent body of a car...keep the interior minimalist...with real perfomance, and keep the price reasonable. I gotta think these things would sell like hotcakes...
Ford Motor Co. tried this with the Mercury Marauder. It was everything you listed: powerful, minimalist, solid and proven body...except it was horrendously expensive. Ford wonders why it didn't sell well, yet you could get a black Crown Vic with aftermarket wheels and have just as nice a car for thousands less! They got everything right but the price.
1986 Porsche 911 Turbo?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
From the article;
>Automakers are fighting the legislation; they believe the real goal is to obtain proprietary "calibration codes" that are the blueprints for how parts are made. With that information, Territo said, independent mechanics and parts manufacturers could duplicate major components such as fuel injectors that automakers have spent millions of dollars developing.
let us let ol'papa bear poke some holes into this logic...
1. if i'm a big time car competitor i just buy a car that has a feature(s) that i like. i then get some of my hardware engineers to dismantle the car and see what the heck is going on inside. expensive, and time consuming.
2. if i'm even more curious, i hire a person(s) to go to repair school and learn the 'secret' codes. expensive, and time consuming.
3. if i'm in a hurry, i just go bribe a mechanic for the secret codes.
4. if i'm in a really big hurry, i hire some willing young lady to get the answers i have questions for.
its far easyer, cheaper, and faster to exploit a person's weakness for an invention, than invent it yourself. its been my own experience that exploitation works; but in order to survive, one has to invent also.
has anyone noticed that's illeagle to BUY a NEW car on the internet? that's from the car dealers, thankyou.
Cars.com claims the Z06 starts at $50k.
Y'know, you blow up one sun and suddenly everyone expects you to walk on water.
This stuff is already computer controlled, and if a $30 router can have a web administration interface, there's no reason a car couldn't either.
Yes there is, but it's not insurmountable: noone's bothered to port Webmin to TRON yet.
Y'know, you blow up one sun and suddenly everyone expects you to walk on water.
I don't even have my own car yet, and the day I got my driver's license, my parents' insurance doubled. And that's with me going to school 700 miles away.
Y'know, you blow up one sun and suddenly everyone expects you to walk on water.
...without power-off oversteer. I should have been more specific. : )
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
picked engines that are very representative if the two categories.
I was actually replying to someone who stated that old engines were "POS" and should be junked. I guess I just replied to the wrong parent comment. Oh well!
OTOH, your custom Lincoln engine has mods that may have been too expensive for a car manufacturer to put in any high-volume production car, old or modern. You can't take that as an example that proves that computers are worthless.
I didn't say worthless... I think they do have their place in production vehicles, as you stated, I just get tired of hearing that they are the end-all cure-all for modern vehicles. I wanted to point out that anyone with reasonable automotive skills could build up a non-computerized engine that could perform as well as a fully computerized one. I also have a 2002 Dodge Ram 2500 truck. Factory stock. It has better "off the starting line" performance than my old Bronco, but the mileage is actually worse. I can't say for the emissions, since they don't check them any more here in Fla.
they need to run quiet and idle smoothly, for example.
WHAT??! And miss the look of someone in a rice-racer when they pull up beside me and stare at those 3" pipes blasting their rolling boom box into the next block!
73 Lincoln motor vs. a 2004 Cadillac Northstar
Two problems with that... I don't have a Northstar (want to donate one to me for testing?!) and the second problem is, it's a CHEVY!! URK!!! I'd rather PUSH my Fords than drive a Chevy!! LOL
Nice reply comment! Was good to see the moderators gave you some points for it!
The number 1 problem of working in a cubicle - 23 power cords, 1 outlet...
Yeah...had to learn fast to not let off the gas when in a turn, but, to instead give it more gas, to squat the rear end down. If you drive that thing right...you can't hardly pry the wheels off the road with a crowbar.... :-)
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
You can have your air-cooled monster. I'd much prefer the nice, user-friendly AWD goodness.
But, then again, for the money I'd drop on a Turbo, I'd save my pennies and get a Ford GT. Saw one at the car show, and that thing is a boner on four great big wheels. In a good way.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Darned straight. Though some credit goes to CAD and such, and better materials (Dodge Neon was the first with a plastic intake manifold that is now common - easy to make without restrictions! Nice and smooth...), computer control is essential to the combination of fuel economy and power. And sometime people forget that the muscle cars, mostly built before 1972, were measured in GROSS horsepower while today cars are measured in NET horsepower. That said, there are lots of people who have hot rodded their cars by fooling the computer - Gus Mahon and his turbo minivans and 12 second Dodge Spirit is one example. He did it all on a budget that would shock many in the 12-second-Civic crowd - and could use his drag car as a daily driver (seating five in comfort). Still got very good mileage as I understand it - and passed the emissions tests. (I think you can find examples of how to hot rod computer controlled cars at http://www.turbovan.net)