Apple Announces Tiger Release Date

GatorMarc writes "Well, it's official. Tiger will be released into the wild on April 29th with more than 200 new features, including Spotlight, Dashboard, Automator, VoiceOver, Safari RSS, Core Audio, and Core Image." Additional commentary available on ThinkSecret and MacWorld.

Comments

Reviews?

[salemlb]

Anyone have any reviews for Tiger on any hardware platform? I'm sure Ars will have one up (complaining about the finder again) before too much longer. Anything to convince me to take my g3 700 640mb iBook to Tiger in the meantime?

Re:Reviews?

[Golias]

Anyone have any reviews for Tiger on any hardware platform?

Sure thing. Here you go:

It's total shit on the Athlon XP 2500+. You can't even get it to boot up. Less functionality than either Linux or Windows.

I hear it works much better on other platforms, specifically Apple-built PPC systems, but you will have to look at other reviews for that information.

Re:Reviews?

[Reaperducer]

I have a 1.5 Ghz Powerbook, and a 500 Mhz iBook. I'll be upgrading both. A lot of Wintel-types will complain that $129 is too much for a point release. But there are a lot of reasons I'll be shelling out my $200 that haven't been covered on the rumor sites, and will work fine on the older iBook:

- Preview now reads Adobe DNG images.
- Preview now reads RAW images.
- Built-in no internet connection needded dictionary.
- Built-in language translator.
- Built-in flight tracker.
- Envelope printing from Address Book.
- Fax status in the menu bar.
- Built-in unit conversion.
- Burn folders.
- Preview slide show (the only reason I still keep Graphics Converter around).
- Inline Safari PDF viewing (about time).
- Wireless image capture.
- Jabber IM support.
- Firewall stealth mode.
- Burn DVDs for other file systems.


Unfortunately, some of the 200 new features that Apple claims on this page are duplicates, or things that were already implemented, like Bluetooth headset support (I've been doing that in Panther for almost eight months). But still, there are a lot of reasons to upgrade, even if you don't have the latest greatest hardware.

Re:Reviews?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you even try Intel? I hate AMD-fanboys on Slashdot.

Re:Reviews?

[he-sk]

- Inline Safari PDF viewing (about time).

You mean like with the adobe plugin on windows? Oh no! I actually like the way PDF files from the internet open in Preview and not in Safari.

Re:Reviews?

[okto]

Won't run on my Atari or TI89, either :/

Re:Reviews?

[Scott Atkinson]

I've been running one of the final pre-release builds on our PDP-11 and I have to say it feels faster than Panther.

Of course, on such an old machine you wouldn't expect all the glory of Aqua, but I appreciate how Apple designed the OS to degrade gracefully. By default, Tiger comes up on our box at an sh prompt.

Re:Reviews?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone have any reviews for Tiger on any hardware platform?

Sure, I'll just pull my copy of OS X 10.4 out of my invisible filing cabinet and try it out on my invisible computer.

Once I've finished typing up the review on my invisible typewriter, I'll send you a copy.

(Hint: It's not out yet, so _if_ any potential reviewers even have a copy, it's probably a beta version, and furthermore they are probably under NDA for now)

Re:Reviews?

[mbourgon]

My bet is - it'll be faster. Not a bad prediction - each version of X has become progressively faster on the same hardware.

Re:Reviews?

[JQuick]

You joke about how Tiger degrades gracefully on a PDP-11 but are not far from the truth.

For instance, I have one of the early firewire based PowerBooks. This system does not have a GPU powerful enough to offload 3D animation. It also has a 400Mhz G3. Thus, it does not have Altivec to offload graphics vector processing. As a result, instead of slowing down the system to perform 3D rotation of dashboard widgets when the user customizes them, it draws the obverse of the widget into offscreen memory then quickly replaces the live widget window with the widget customization window.

Thus, once the initial background indexing for spotlight has been completed, Tiger on this old PowerBook is fast enough for interactive use. In fact, I have been using it for a number of tasks in preference to my 17" G4 since I can get the job done faster in Tiger than on my newer system running Panther.

Re:Reviews?

[creep]

Sort of--you don't need a plugin for it to work, it just opens it in the main Safari window. You can right/option-click on the PDF to open it in Preview.

Re:Reviews?

[Anonymous Coward]

Powerbook G4 : 1.25Ghz, 512MB RAM.

On the build I have (8A425, one of the lasts if I'm not mistaken) it's actually a noticably bit faster. Some stuff hangs around a bit (especially when I start to log into the shares on my Windows box. Hopefully they'll fine tune the net stack, for some reason it seems to get bogged down. There used to be a massive memory leak in Tiger back in the WWDC release, where you couldn't be on wireless more than about 30 minutes until the connectivity sputtered out, but they've definately made some progress.

Re:Reviews?

[Moofie]

I got it to run on my HP48GX. Get a real calculator.

: ) : ) : )

Re:Reviews?

[Scott Atkinson]

That is, for want of a better word, cool.

One of the things I like about Apple is how the last three releases of OS X have been successively faster or more able or both, even on modest equipment.

s.

Re:Reviews?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've had Tiger GM for about a week now, running on a PowerBook G4 550 and a PB G4 867. Both have 1GB memory. I just installed it on a iBook 700 w/ 384MB.

It's very usable on both PB systems. I just installed it on the iBook this morning and haven't had a chance to use it much. If the PB550 is any indication, it will be slower while Spotlight indexes the system, then run as quickly as Panther did.

Re:Reviews?

[Anonymous Coward]

RoundRects are everywhere!

Re:Reviews?

[jest3r]

can you disable spotlight?

Re:Reviews?

[Guy Harris]

RoundRects are everywhere!

Yes, but are rotating cubes everywhere?

Re:Reviews?

[Mikito]

The "Sherlock" application in Panther (maybe earlier versions too) offers a flight tracker and language translator, though you do need to be online to use either function.

Re:Reviews?

[Anonymous Coward]

its going to be just like all the mac Os's, really shiney, and really useless

Re:Reviews?

[TheDefenistrator]

Did you even try having the brains to distinguish between the two and to find that Intel is total shit?

Re:Reviews?

[JQuick]

The shortest answer is Yes.

A slightly longer answer is No, but you can effectively disable it by simply excluding all or most of your system from the spotlight database.

The spotlight Preference Module contains a Privacy Tab. In this panel, you can add directories which are to be excluded from the index database. Presumably, adding / here would suffice to both save disk space and ongoing CPU costs. However, doing so broadly seems rather pointless. Certainly if you have confidential data on a network accessible volume you would be prudent to omit it. Likewise, if you have a subtree containing a large database, or collection of large files whose content is not usefully presented by spotlight, It might be worth excluding them.

On the whole, though, the incremental cost of maintaining the index is trivial and is correlated to the addition/modification of the files. This, in most environments, is both sporadic and requires negligible CPU and disk resources. If parts of your workflow have a file access pattern which makes spotlight less valuable to you, simply tailor spotlight to meet your needs.

Also, both system wide, and application specific spotlight queries are astonishingly efficient. Performing real time queries and displaying the results uses very little CPU and happens quite quickly. Even long queries (lasting seconds) do not appear onerous, since the result list is updated frequently as the search occurs, and incremental results are available.

The user decides which kinds of data are displayed for searches, and can tailor searches to a subset of volumes or systems when multiple disk (and remote volumes) are mounted.

Anyway, you can tailor the system to index less (or effectively nothing). Doing so, however, is unlikely to be of benefit. The system once primed appears so efficient that you would not save enough disk/time to make it worth your while. I suggest that rather than worrying about how to disable it to save processor cycles, you try it out for awhile and discover how it can save your brain cycles.

Spotlight is not a specific function or program. Rather it is a pervasive system. The base system provides a daemon which creates an initial index of all files, and subsequently handles requests for updating new or modified files. This process runs heavily niced in the background. While you can access a general Spotlight query tool using Command-Space, the real benefit of spotlight is its pervasiveness. Use the spotlight tool in the Preferences app to find out where a particular setting lives. (Note that Windows converts searching for a Windows-centric name will be presented with the Mac-centric counterpart.) Likewise in mail, the finder, and other programs, spotlight is available to help you find the context specific data you seek. Since developers can easily create spotlight plugins to parse data formats and export metadata, expect that most future applications will integrate well with the system.

It is important to note, that I found spotlight to be quite useful for a number of tasks, even though I only used it sporadically for testing purposes. Thus, I am inclined to be favorably biased towards it. On the other hand, I usually use a dual G5 Powermac and a fairly recent G4 17" powerbook. The fact that most of my use of spotlight was on a 400Mhz G3 powerbook suggests that my assessment of its efficiency is likely credible.

As always your time and your mood are the only true measures of a software tool, not my opinion.

Re:Reviews?

[Professor_UNIX]

Anything to convince me to take my g3 700 640mb iBook to Tiger in the meantime?

MacOS X 10.4 Tiger will be the most advanced operating system of all time and include features that were only dreamed about in lesser platforms. Suffice it to say, anyone that doesn't upgrade to Tiger on the day of release is a fool... a damn fool. I'm getting set to order my new Powerbook on April 29th so I'm guarenteed it's loaded with Tiger, because as I said before, MacOS X 10.4 Tiger will be the best operating system of all time.

Re:Reviews?

[he-sk]

Won't option-click open the PDF in a new tab in Safari? Also, could you check if this is configurable? Thanks

Re:Reviews?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you trying to play the part of a rabid Slashdot responder for humorist effect?

Re:Reviews?

[theWrkncacnter]

That powerbook parent of parent speaks of is at least 4 years old. Try running Windows XP on a PC laptop made 4 years ago.

Re:Reviews?

[Propaghandi]

Sweet! I own a "Pismo" (400 MHz), and was wondering about Tiger's performance. I am still considering a G4 upgrade, though. Thanks for the info!

Re:Reviews?

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem to agree with the parent poster. But it feels like you want to disagree. Confusing.

Btw, I've tried running Windows XP on a PC laptop made 4 years ago. In general, it ain't pretty.

Re:Reviews?

[drsmithy]

That powerbook parent of parent speaks of is at least 4 years old. Try running Windows XP on a PC laptop made 4 years ago.

That would be at least 1Ghz+ P3s - not only would XP run easily, it would run far, far better than OS X.

Windows is *much* nicer to use on older hardware than OS X is.

Re:Reviews?

[drsmithy]

One of the things I like about Apple is how the last three releases of OS X have been successively faster or more able or both, even on modest equipment.

Given how abominably slow OS X was when released (and still is on most machines IME/HO), they didn't really have anywhere to go but up.

Re:Reviews?

[drsmithy]

You joke about how Tiger degrades gracefully on a PDP-11 but are not far from the truth.

It's a long way from the truth. OS X offers practically zero - and most of those only reasonably accessible through third-party software like Tinkertool - ways to reduce CPU-heavy and memory heavy graphical effects.

I've said it many times before - personally I don't understand how anyone can use OS X for non-trivial tasks on anything short of a high-end dual G4, or a G5-series machine.

Re:Reviews?

[Anonymous Coward]

In April 2001, a 1 GHz PIII was high-end. You can run XP on such an expensive monstrosity. But it won't go easily as you claim. Not unless you buy a lot of extra memory. But, then again, XP is an old, outdated operating system. So why wouldn't it run on a dinosaur?

Regardless of what you say, it'll be slow.

Re:Reviews?

[Anonymous Coward]

not to mention XP came out 4 years ago.

Re:Reviews?

[fyonn]

- Jabber IM support.

this one interests me. can we use it to make ichat effectively into a multiprotocol IM client? ideally I'd like to see apple run a worldwide jabber network with authorised gateways to AIM, MSN and yahoo. I doubt we'll see that though, I reckon ichat will conitue to work as now but also with an option to connect to a jabber server, hopefully any jabber server, not just the one that comes with tiger server.

can I run an aim and a jabber connection at the same time? will I have to run my own jabber server to be able to gateway to other networks and will this affect my ability to video conference with other ichat users (on aim).

I'm not expecting to be able to video conferene with MSN users (though it would be cool if we could) but just text chat would do.

anyone got any experience with this?

dave

Re:Reviews?

[capmilk]

Should run okay, shouldn't it?

Re:Reviews?

[Shanep]

Firewall stealth mode.

"Stealth mode", with respect to firewalls, is little more than a marketing catch phrase. The biggest positive thing that it does do for users, is make them feel safer. I have detected my own "stealth mode" firewalled hosts easily with nmap and know of techniques to make it even easier to do if the "stealth" host is at least one router away.

--
People think George Bush is dumb because he's not articulate; just like Stephen Hawking.

Stephen Hawking has a motor neurone disease, meaning his difficulties are purely physical. George Bush on the other hand, does not, he is just a dumb shit. A dumb shit who continues in his daddies footsteps, killing innocent children.

Retard.

Re:Reviews?

[JQuick]

That chip on your shoulder seems pretty big.

You state that there are "practically zero ways to reduce CPU-heavy and memory heavy graphical effects."

This does not hold water considering that there are a number of actual and documented ways to reduce these effects such as turning off window miniaturize effects, magnification, etc. The support for intelligent reduction in animation overhead for dashboard which I described also contradicts your assertion.

I do not claim that old G3s are suitable for use in a rendering farm, realtime video encoding, gene sequencing or other graphically demanding or compute intensive tasks. However, I also do not consider that the majority of things that people use computers for to be trivial. Most people who use computers spend a great deal of time reading, writing, coding, and doing research. These rarely tax the hardware.

Web rendering on a G3 is fairly poky. However, doing so efficiently (and pleasantly) is still possibly. For instance, when on my Pismo, I use either OmniWeb or Safari via a tabbed interface. I read top level sites, and as I see stories that might interest me, I open them in another tab and continue looking for interesting items. By the time I close that window, I now have a number of articles in the queue ready to read. So, the way I use the web, even fairly demanding tasks like that do not slow me down and are enjoyable.

Do I prefer the greater responsiveness of a G4 or G5 to that of a lowly Pismo when browsing? Absolutely. However, I gain far more pleasure from performing the task in OmniWeb or Safari, than I do from any other browsers on whatever hardware.

Your professed failure to understand appears to be merely that: you seem not to understand that others have different priorities than you do. Your saying it many times does not make your personal opinion any more compelling than the first time.

Your work flow may very well demand the latest GPU or CPU performance. The tasks of the majority of users does not. This does not make them wrong, make you wrong, or vice versa.

As long as an older system has sufficient memory to make paging rare, they are quite suitable for many users. The bottom line is not whether they are the best choice, but whether the user is capable of performing their intended task and enjoys doing so. Will a user enjoy Tiger more than Panther on existing hardware? Most users probably would. Would they enjoy it more on newer hardware? Most users probably would. Despite this, many user will not derive sufficient utility or enjoyment from it to be worth the additional cost of new hardware. Who cares? Their preference is all that matters to them. Why does it seem to matter to you?

Please explain

[Anonymous Coward]

how this will increase my productivity ?
will it fill in XLS spreadsheets for me, or write that appraisal so i dont have to ?

Re:Please explain

[Khakionion]

Well, I hate to present your trolling with these pesky facts, but Apple Automator will definitely help with improving productivity.

Re:Please explain

[Anonymous Coward]

You might wanna check out the desktop widget demo movie too. If you can't find a way to use that to increase your productivity... well thats not our problem. Oh and spotlight. Yeah thats not helpful or anything.

Re:Please explain

[bobbyjack]

definitely? That's some claim. Forgive me for being flippant, but ... "You can easily automate tasks such as renaming a large group of files". F*** ME! Renaming files!!

Re:Please explain

[xgamer04]

Nah, just think about what Automator really is. It's shell-style pipes and scripting in a graphical environment. I'm hoping that for the PHB-types who actually have a little drive to learn new things (yeah, I know, oxymoron, but anyway) can either whip up a little script to do whatever (or maybe have the IT guy do it so he doesn't have to walk them through it twice a week).

Re:Please explain

[Jussi K. Kojootti]

I've heard there is an automation tool for generating TPS Reports in Tiger - they say it'll even create Cover Sheets automatically! I can't wait!

Re:Please explain

[Anonymous Coward]

But will they be the new ones? Because we're using them on ALL the reports now - didn't you get that memo?

Crap

[grahamsz]

I ordered a mini last night. Will i be able to get them to send a tiger upgrade or will that be another $100.

Re:Crap

[derphilipp]

No, Upgrades to Computers bought after a certain date (around a month or so) cost 16 - so 20 $ or so...

Re:Crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple have been pretty good about this sort of thing with previous versions of OS X. I think you'd be able to get it for the cost of postage. Really, though, it was worth waiting until it was announced. How desperately did you need the Mini anyway?

Re:Crap

[MacBorg]

Generally, if the order was processed after the release announcement, apple will either give you a copy OR will make you pay $20 for it rather than $130... usually the latter

Re:Crap

[adam mcmaster]

According to their site (can't find the link now, sorry) you should be able to pay a small fee for shipping and get Tiger for free when it's released.

Re:Crap

[GizmoToy]

If by last night you mean April 12th (after midnight), then you'll be able to get it for $10 shipping and handling. Otherwise, you're gonna have to call and talk them out of it. In fact, I'd probably call today and let them know. Who knows, you only missed the announcement by a day, maybe they'll give you a discount, or just send it for $10.

I've been waiting to purchase a mini until the announcement since I knew if you ordered beforehand you won't get a free upgrade. Off to the Apple store I go...

Re:Crap

[the_2nd_coming]

cancel your order and replace the order.. if you call up you should be able to get this done easily.

Re:Crap

[Anonymous Coward]

According to this there will be a $9.95 upgrade available for Macs bought after April 12. So, unless you can swing something special on your own, you are not on the "official" upgrade path.

Re:Crap

[Kaamoss]

check out here http://www.apple.com/macosx/uptodate/ it says people who purchased on april 12th or after will be able to upgrade for the cost of the media...which is nice as I ordered my new ibook last night...so I should qualify...I think.

Re:Crap

[jht]

They have the "up-to-date" program, and if it was ordered from today onwards, you can get Tiger for $9.95 and a coupon. So, assuming your order datestamp was 4/11, I'd say to cancel it and re-order today.

Re:Crap

[scmmss]

The Up-To-Date program states that any machine bought on or after April 12th qualifies for an upgrade for the cost of the media, $9.95 I think. So you don't qualify but it may be worth emailing them to check, they may be lenient and back date it a day.

Re:Crap

[noisymime]

and yet the mini I've been waiting over 8 weeks for (and that according to the website still isn't built) won't come with tiger :(

Re:Crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Who knows, you only missed the announcement by a day, maybe they'll give you a discount, or just send it for $10.

By all means do this. Customer service calls cost Apple money, probably more than it costs to send you a free copy, if you call they may just give it to you to get you off the phone.

You'd be amazed what you can get away with just by calling customer service and asking for it.

Re:Crap

[Anonymous Coward]

From http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/

"If you purchased a new Mac on or after April 12 that didn't include Tiger, you can upgrade for just the cost of the media."

More detail (and upgrade forms) here: Mac OS X - Up-To-Date Programs

Re:Crap

[GekkePrutser]

Yes, or perhaps they have a cooling-off period in which you can cancel the order? I don't know about the US store but that's mandatory in Europe.. He could always cool off on the order and then place a new one again :-)

Re:Crap

[Anonymous Coward]

You can always cancel it and then re-order it now. Your call. But cancel and re-order should be most effective at insuring your inclusion in the up-to-date program.

Re:Crap

[iamsolidsnk]

you should be able to for free, if you bought it within 10 days of the release.

Re:Crap

[bnenning]

and yet the mini I've been waiting over 8 weeks for (and that according to the website still isn't built) won't come with tiger :(

Call up and ask, Apple's usually good about stuff like that. Worst case you can cancel your order and resubmit, although that may get you pushed to the back of the queue.

Re:Crap

[Anonymous Coward]

If you purchase a computer within 30 days of the release you qualify for an update. You have to pay fo shipping though.

Re:Crap

[Who drank my chocola]

I ordered a mini last night. Will i be able to get them to send a tiger upgrade or will that be another $100.

I'd call them today, before your machine ships. If they say "no" then cancel your order and re-order. Or pick it up at the store. Don't even think about paying full-price.

Re:Crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Return it if possible (unless you ordered after midnight)

Cutoff date is April 12th for the $9.99 upgrade.

Re:Crap

[shotfeel]

And in many cases, a trip to a local Apple Store (if you have a local Apple Store) will net you a free copy. Just be sure to bring in the proof-of-purchase paperwork.

They may even do it if you ordered your Mac one day too early.

Re:Crap

[Winckle]

After the 12th you can have them send it to you for the cost of a CD, since you ordered it last night, i'd cancel and re-order today!

Re:Crap

[EggyToast]

Yeah, call and ask. I ordered a refurb G5 last april, and the site said "ships with 10.2.8." It came with 10.3.4, but the disc was 10.2. If your mini still hasn't shipped yet, you should have no problem since they technically haven't sold it to you yet.

Re:Crap

[noisymime]

they may not have 'sold' it to me (considering they're saying its not even built yet) but my wallet says I've paid and I have a feeling thats how they may see it. But you're right, definitely worth a shot.

Re:Crap

[CRC'99]

What about if you've ordered a mac mini 3 weeks ago, but are still waiting for the order to complete - which is aparently going to be in another 4 weeks time?

I ordered it on 22/3 but delivery isn't supposed to be until around 9/5...

I would really hope it comes with Tiger, but would be happy if someone could confirm this :)

Re:Crap

[GizmoToy]

Seriously, I'd call Apple today and let them know you want Tiger, and make sure you get it. Really, there's no reason for you not to if it's not supposed to ship until next month, but I wouldn't leave it to chance. Give 'em a call, I'm sure they'll help out.

Looks good...

[O-SUSHi]

... this release of OSX looks good enough to make me want to buy a mac, alas, I have no money.

It must be extra special if the page background is black aswell >.>

Meet the world's most advanced operating system.

That however strikes me as a little bit odd.. how is it advanced? As in, advanced functions are now user friendly with the 200 new features? I guess I'm just stupid, all the more reason to buy a mac.

Re:Looks good...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not quite sure what you were trying to say. Your grammer is a bit off. Maybe you could reword that so we could understand.

I use x86 PC myself...

[amliebsch]

But congratulations to Apple for what sounds like it will be another quality release. I personally don't plan on switching any time soon, but it pleases me to see some strong competition re-entering this marketplace. While I doubt this is the end of Microsoft, it certainly means they will have to get off their asses. The complacency of the last five years is over.

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[Golias]

The complacency of the last five years is over.

Now on with the complacency of the next five years!

Enjoy your wait for Longhorn, the exclusive platform of Duke Nukem Forever. ;)

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[Anonymous Coward]

What complacency? Between suing people, and funding "creative" surveys on Linux, Microsoft is busier than ever.

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[devphaeton]

Enjoy your wait for Longhorn,

Where does he say he runs Windows? ;)

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[Threni]

> While I doubt this is the end of Microsoft, it certainly means they will have
> to get off their asses.

Why - do you predict that the hundreds of millions of Windows PCs are now going to be migrated to this week's Apple product?

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe the parent post is an attempt at stringing together some vapid but pleasant-sounding sentences in hopes of garnering karma.

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[Anonymous Coward]

So... he's hoping Microsoft will "get off their assess" and release an update to his Slackware distro?

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[amliebsch]

I use both Windows and Linux for different functions, mostly Windows on the desktop though.

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[amliebsch]

No, of course not, but Apple has always been a "substitute good" for a MS-WinPC. It's just been the case for a long time that it was not sufficiently better to overcome the network effect advantage of Windows. Now, it may be starting to reach that point. People who are purchasing new systems are going to give Apple more consideration. Microsoft will have to fight back if it wants to keep these customers.

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[Roofus]

Where does he say he runs Windows? ;)

What else could he be running? The last guy that actually ran Linux left Slashdot about 600,000 user ID's ago!

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[Drakonian]

do() || do_not(); // try(); Parse error at or near line 1: Expected ; found ||

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[Drakonian]

do() || do_not(); // try();

Parse error at or near line 1: Expected ; found ||

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[Anonymous Coward]

But congratulations to Apple for what sounds like it will be another quality release.

Well, at least we understand why you're using Windows...

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[Anonymous Coward]

The last guy that actually ran Linux left Slashdot about 600,000 user ID's ago!

+5 funny :-) (no real mod points, sorry)

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not Funny, Sad! This is too close to what is actually happening here after the pro-DRM Mac crowd came and one-up'ed the zealotry.

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[torpor]

i run linux.

i also run OSX...

i will never run windows, nor use any microsoft product in my computing realm again .. simply no point.

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[Ruprecht the Monkeyb]

Now on with the complacency of the next five years!

That sounds too much like work. I think I'll just keep the old complacency.

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[Anonymous Coward]

While I doubt this is the end of Microsoft, it certainly means they will have to get off their asses. The complacency of the last five years is over.

The complacency is Microsoft's. Thus the reference to Longhorn.

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[elrous0]

Enjoy your wait for Longhorn, the exclusive platform of Duke Nukem Forever. ;)

Yeah, we'll just have to content ourselves with our mere 64 bit Windows and Linux, and envy you cutting-edge Apple users with your 32 bit OS.

-Eric

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[pohl]

So not true. I have the pleasure of using both Debian and MacOS X -- both at work and at home. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[CautionESPN]

I intend to do just that. My XP system is driving me insane, Linux wifi is just laughable at this point with the lack of drivers (not to mention the same for my video card) and with the release of the mini in conjunction with a major new set of OS X functionality, I plan on switching within the week.

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[Anonymous Coward]

WooHoo! One down, millions to go!

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[aristotle-dude]

Do us all a favour. Learn to use Google before posting here again M'kay?

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/64bit/

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[r3sist0r]

Yeah, we'll just have to content ourselves with our mere 64 bit Windows and Linux, and envy you cutting-edge Apple users with your 32 bit OS.

Tiger is 64bit... shipping at the end of the month. Exactly when was M$'s 64bit OS shipping, again?

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[mark]

No I didn't!!!

oh hang on .. I'm typing this on my PowerBook.

d'oh!

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[Shanep]

Yeah, we'll just have to content ourselves with our mere 64 bit Windows and Linux, and envy you cutting-edge Apple users with your 32 bit OS.

Just because an OS can be made to compile for 64bit, doesn't make it cutting edge if it slows down and you don't end up needing more than 32bit space.

OS X display functionality remains 32bit on purpose for performance reasons, for example. There is a lot to Apple's "cutting edge" OS that is irrelevant of whether it is 32bit or 64bit. 64bit doesn't just magically make an OS better if the OS is not going to be used to exploit the specific benefits that 64bit brings.

Re:I use x86 PC myself...

[amliebsch]

Exactly when was M$'s 64bit OS shipping, again?

Windows XP x64 Goes Gold

Mac Mini update?

[rylin]

What I want to know is when the Mac Mini gets updated with a graphics card that CoreImage can use to its full extent.

Re:Mac Mini update?

[the_2nd_coming]

core image is an API... it will use the fasted thing on your Mac to do the rendering work.. if you have a 128 MB GFX card but the processor will get the job done faster, then it will use the processor.

Re:Mac Mini update?

[pastpolls]

Can you explain to me what you are doing on a Mac Mini that requires CoreImage or CoreVideo? Seems to me like these APIs were designed for video and image editing professionals, who is not the target audience for a mini.

Re:Mac Mini update?

[rylin]

The thing is, CoreImage won't use the 9200 at all

When a programmable GPU is present, Core Image utilizes the graphics card for image processing operations, freeing the CPU for other tasks. And if you have a high-performance card with increased video memory (VRAM), you'll find real-time responsiveness across a wide variety of operations.

Core Image-capable graphics cards include:

* ATI Mobility Radeon 9700
* ATI Radeon 9600 XT, 9800 XT, X800 XT
* nVidia GeForce FX Go 5200
* nVidia GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
* nVidia GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL, 6800 GT DDL

Re:Mac Mini update?

[pastpolls]

What kind of responsiveness? What are you missing by using a 9200? Do you even know? Well, I can tell you the only thing you will miss in Tiger is a ripple effect. That is really it. That is about the only thing in Tiger that uses CoreImage. Now once Photoshop and Final Cut release patches for Tiger, those apps will move much quicker and offer faster effect. Of course, that is not what the MacMini is deisgned for. Nothing in email checking, picture touch-up, or iTunes will be effected by the new API.

Re:Mac Mini update?

[rylin]

On the other hand, apps like CenterStage will probably make use of CoreImage/CoreVideo. Thumbnailing out album-art (probably with a nice and shiny jewel case layer above each?) when browsing songs or similar. Of course, since I don't have a Mini, I don't know how well the Mini would cope with these things. That said, when buying a rig - even if it's for $700 (thanks, .eu), I want it to ba a little future-proof.

Re:Mac Mini update?

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you missing by using a 9200? Do you even know? Well, I can tell you the only thing you will miss in Tiger is a ripple effect. That is really it. That is about the only thing in Tiger that uses CoreImage.

Wait a second - you're saying that this wonderful new API, this amazing thing that will revolutionise desktop computer use, this sparkling example of Apple's incredible innovation, this final proof that OSX is humanity's greatest achievement and that Windows should have been jettisoned back when we moved out of caves... is... uh... actually just pointless eye candy that you won't even miss if you don't have it?

So what is my $130 going to buy me, if Tiger's "innovations" are all this useless?

Re:Mac Mini update?

[poot_rootbeer]

if you have a 128 MB GFX card but the processor will get the job done faster, then it will use the processor.

Yeah, but I'd kind of like to use my main processor for other things. Like running the game engine.

I thought that was the whole point of having a dedicated graphics co-pro... to free up cycles on the CPU for things that aren't graphics rendering?

Re:Mac Mini update?

[the_2nd_coming]

you fucking idiot... core image can be used for eye candy OR actual work like real time filters.

Re:Mac Mini update?

[rylin]

Hmm.. "Offtopic"?
Come on mods, we all know he was being Insightful when calling the AC an idiot, as well as what CoreImage can be used for!

Re:Mac Mini update?

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing is, CoreImage won't use the 9200 at all

Yes, it will. The 9200 has pixel shaders. It can't do everything on the 9200 that it can on other cards, but it doesn't ignore the capabilities that are there.

Re:Mac Mini update?

[nicuramar]

Actually, it seems from what I have seen that Core Image is not "there" if your graphics card is too old e.g. G-Force 440MX, so those things aren't done in the CPU; They aren't done at all (for instance certain animations when dragging widgets to the dashboard). There is also Quartz 2D extreme which is probably more what you are refering to (also not available on older gfx cards btw).

Re:Mac Mini update?

[the_2nd_coming]

it probably depends on the function.

eye candy is one thing, but a core-image filter is something else. I am sure there are ways to make your IU (Image Unit) use the CPU if the GPU is crap.

Re:Mac Mini update?

[the_2nd_coming]

it depends on the application.. a game will certainly not let the CPU render the graphics if the CPU can render them even at minimal settings (which is the responsibility of the user to know if a game can run on their system or not)

but for Image processing like in photoshop, which is what it was meant for, it will use the CU because it is a function that needs to get done no matter what, but you get it faster if you have a supported GPU.

as for eye candy, it is probably lo priority and can just be told to not run at all if the GPU cannot do it.

Re:Mac Mini update?

[wootest]

Your $130 is going to buy you updates to a heap of the applications included with the OS, updates to the core of the OS (kernel and frameworks), and increased performance. I wouldn't call any of it useless, even if there's no immediate OMG factor here unless you're a developer or interested in search or interested in lots of improvements all over, even if they're minor, or own a Konfabulator license and don't mind performance.

However, if you decide to go nuts over how there's currently no real-world application using a technology that formally debuts in an OS that's only going to get released in 17 days and claim that as the penultimate piece of evidence that it's crap, you're downright ignorant or trying to be deliberately misleading.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/overview/. Here you go. Let me know when you've gotten through all those links on the right side. I think there's something you're going to like, unless you're trying very hard not to. Wether it'll be worth $130 is of course up to you, but I don't think everything can be conveniently swept aside as "pointless eye candy".

Re:Mac Mini update?

[shotfeel]

But wouldn't it make sense for iPhoto to eventually leverage what CoreImage provides? Same for iMovie and iDVD WRT CoreVideo?

I thought a big part of Core* was to create basic frameworks that apps at all levels could use, including free/share-ware.. The general idea being to raise even the lowliest of apps to having an impressive base set of functionality.

In fact, from what I've been told, apps like Photoshop are the ones that won't use CoreImage, because Adobe already has their own equivalent they've been optimizing for years. Why would Adobe use FilterX in CoreImage, when they've already written the same filter and need the solution to be cross-platform?

Re:Mac Mini update?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll be happy to explain. I'm creating a new highly useful cross platform product called "None Of Your $%#$! Business You $#%!tard". It goes well with a hot cup of "Shut The $%!#$ Up.

Re:Mac Mini update?

[shotfeel]

I look at it from the other angle.

The whole point is that if you have hardware available to speed up a given process, it will use it. If not, nothing will be slower than it would have been anyway.

What people seem to miss is that Apple is providing frameworks that developers have been spending gads of resources on for every single application. Buy a game, the developer spent a ton of time writing code to optimize the graphics display. Buy another game, and that developer had to do the same thing. The kicker is that both of those games will probably require the same graphics cards that CoreImage requires if you want the same performance.

Re:Mac Mini update?

[Anonymous Coward]

An AC troll who's shy about swearing, don't see that very often.

Re:Mac Mini update?

[smoketetsu999]

When I looked in iPhoto's transitions in ilife '05 has the ripple effect which works good on the Mac Mini even in full screen and others like cross fade, zoom, cube, etc. work in desktop manager (virtual desktop pager) that I use so I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work in Tiger. If coregraphics requires more to do those things then I am not sure I want to upgrade to it.

Re:Mac Mini update?

[the_2nd_coming]

it won't... core image is an api for certain filters for images... that is all. the ripple effect I think is pure QE.

Great...

[jschroering]

..now we'll need to a new product to speculate about every other day!

Jimmy

Re:Great...

[jschroering]

Hate to reply to my own post, but take a joke! I was merely poking fun at how it seems every other day someone is guessing about the release date. I myself own a G5 and probably will one of many lining up outside our local Apple store on April 29th. I've been waiting a while for this, just like everyone else. Relax.

Jimmy

Re:Great...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well we can speculate about new PowerMacs until next week. Then I guess we can always fall back on the good ol' G5 Powerbook speculation. :-)

Re:Great...

[shotfeel]

Well, there are the dual dual-core processor G5s that Apple will be announcing in June.

Re:Great...

[Anonymous Coward]

Any by June you mean next week? NAB baby! Lets keep our fingers crossed on the dual dual-core. That would rule.

I've ordered mine :)

[adam mcmaster]

I submitted this about an hour ago, and it was rejected. Should I be offended that they accept everyone else's dupes but not mine? Ah, well.

It is interesting to note that, at least in the UK, Tiger is actually £10 cheaper than the current price for Panther (the previous release). They're also giving those who order now access to an exclusing "Online Seminar", which sounds quite interesting. I can't wait until next month when my copy arrives :)

Re:I've ordered mine :)

[zev1983]

I also submitted this story. But just now I found a new feature called Inkwell http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/inkwell/ that apparently lets you use an input device like a Wacom pad to do things like gestures and to "Write anywhere."

I haven't heard of this before so I thought I'd drop a note about it.

Re:I've ordered mine :)

[chasingporsches]

this was in panther, and i believe jaguar. if you have a tablet, even the cheap 4x5 wacom which is what i have, you can use all of inkwell's features already. a "Ink" option shows up in the system preferences once you plug in a tablet. i dont use it, though. its rather finicky, and considering my tablet isn't the same size as the screen, it overcompensates for the size and so a small letter written on my tablet becomes huge and its hard to use.

Re:I've ordered mine :)

[justforaday]

It's entirely possible that this article was already sitting in the "mysterious future" queue when you submitted your story. The one story that I submitted took about 15 or 16 hours before it was actually published, so I wouldn't worry that it's a conspiracy against you or anything...

Re:I've ordered mine :)

[Yaztromo]

I can't wait until next month when my copy arrives :)

I don't know about in the UK, but here in Canada Apple's website is advertising that if you order online (which I did :) ), Tiger will arrive at your shipping address on the day of the release (April 29th).

So I won't even have to wait until next month! I'll be getting it this month. Woo hoo!

Yaz.

Re:I've ordered mine :)

[buckhead_buddy]

adam_mcmaster wrote:

I submitted this about an hour ago, and it was rejected. Should I be offended that they accept everyone else's dupes but not mine? Ah, well

Have no worries. The moderators were only doing their duty by ensuring that this Apple "press release" was corroborated by the various Mac rumor sites. :-)

Re:I've ordered mine :)

[o_kenway]

This is me writing this reply in inkwell in Jaguar so this is not a new feature - it is really slow though - and I can 't work out how to do full stops

Re:I've ordered mine :)

[Anonymous Coward]

At least for Panther, my pre-order got to me about three hours before the official launch (day-of).

Re:I've ordered mine :)

[jcr]

Inkwell debuted in 10.2 (Jaguar).

-jcr

Re:I've ordered mine :)

[elbobo]

You're not using your tablet in mouse mode are you? You don't want it setup so that your tablet space is relative to your screen space. I forget what the other option is called, but you want that.

I use OS X almost exclusively through my tablet and used Ink for "typing" when I first got my Powerbook. It worked fabulously, and the only reason I switched back to keyboard was because I finally realised that I can actually type faster than I can write.

Re:I've ordered mine :)

[shotfeel]

Actually, I'm amusing myself by picturing the /. editors trying to clear the backlog of "Tiger Release Date" submissions sent in by every Mac user in the world. Some submitting it multiple times just because its sooo easy to do with a Mac.

They could be clearing the backlog until after Tiger is released.

At which time they will be flooded with submissions about Tiger review articles. Maybe I should send mine in now.

I can picture them being very anti-Tiger by mid-May.

From ThinkSecret:

[larry2k]

Tiger costs $129 and has finally invaded Apple's online store, where Apple is offering free shipping along with guaranteed delivery by April 29. As with Panther, a "Family Pack" version suitable for installing on up to 5 Macs in the same house is available for $199. A promotion is also being offered with iLife '05, iWork '05, and Tiger for $249.

April 30th

[Sebilrazen]

Is the day I order the Mini then. 'Bout damn time. I didn't RTFA totally but it looks like some sweet improvements to what was already a good system.

Re:April 30th

[fracai]

check out the Up To Date program. You can order it today and Tiger will either be a free upgrade or included in the box when you receive it.

Geez!

[mattmentecky]

Sunday he wins the Masters Golf Tournament and already they are naming an OS release in his honor after him!

Re:Geez!

[Anonymous Coward]

Sunday he wins the Masters Golf Tournament and already they are naming an OS release in his honor after him!

That's nothing! Survivor wrote a song about him when he was a just a little kid!

Re:Geez!

[Selfbain]

And William Blake wrote a poem about him 200 years before he was born.

Re:Geez!

[tbone1]

And Monty Python did a joke about him visiting Africa in the early 1980s!

Re:Geez!

[Propaghandi]

Hmmm... Apple's new spokesman? "Hi, I'm Tiger, and Apple's new OS gives me Wood!"

Core Image and Mac Mini

[Bob-o-Matic!]

Will they update the Mac Mini's 32MB graphics to enable full hardware acceleration for Core Image? I have been waiting to switch to see what happens here.

Yes, I like to have all the goodies I want for dirt cheap (pc builder/user).

Re:Core Image and Mac Mini

[Rosyna]

You'll still get full hardware acceleration for Core Image. It'll use whatever hardware you throw at it. If the GPU can't do it all, then whatever it can't do will be handled by the AltiVec unit(s). CoreImage is heavily optimized to the extreme max!

Re:Core Image and Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

CoreImage is heavily optimized to the extreme max!

CoreImage makes me wanna slam a Dew while doing extreme multitasking! DUDE!

Re:Core Image and Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Where's the -1, incorrect mod when you need it?

When a programmable GPU is present, Core Image utilizes the graphics card for image processing operations, freeing the CPU for other tasks. And if you have a high-performance card with increased video memory (VRAM), you'll find real-time responsiveness across a wide variety of operations.

Core Image-capable graphics cards include:

ATI Mobility Radeon 9700
ATI Radeon 9600 XT, 9800 XT, X800 XT
nVidia GeForce FX Go 5200
nVidia GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
nVidia GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL, 6800 GT DDL

I don't see the Mini's ATI 9200 in that list, do you? That'd be because Core Image won't use a ATI 9200 for hardware acceleration.

Re:Core Image and Mac Mini

[mrchaotica]

If the GPU can't do it all, then whatever it can't do will be handled by the AltiVec unit(s).

That's called not being accelerated. "Accelerated" in this context means it actually uses the GPU. Otherwise, it would just use the CPU, which is merely called "computed" since it's running at normal speed. Since it can't use the Radeon 9200 (not enough programmability), it will use the unaccelerated CPU path. Do you understand what "accerated" means now?

Re:Core Image and Mac Mini

[shawnce]

To be fair you have at least three levels here with two that could be considered "accelerated" depending on defintion/context...

1) Standard integer/floating point using CPU.
2) SIMD integer/floating point(AltiVec) using CPU.
3) GPU pixel shaders, etc.

Re:Core Image and Mac Mini

[drunkenbatman]

CoreImage is heavily optimized to the extreme max!

Rosyna, that sentence is evil, even for you...

Re:Core Image and Mac Mini

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, no. I still don't know what "accerated" means. /me ducks

Re:Core Image and Mac Mini

[Rosyna]

Do you understand what "accerated" means now?

Nope, what does "accerated" mean?

And for accelerated, the code is still as such. It isn't running on the raw CPU using simple int/float operations but is in fact running on the much better AltiVec unit using SIMD instructions, yo. This of course means that CoreImage code running on the AltiVec units will be faster than CoreImage code running on the raw CPU. To me, that means accelerated

Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[Uire]

According to the new system requirements. old tray-load iMac owners, and probably old Firewire-less iBook owners too, are at the end of the OS line. While sad, this isn't entirely surprising. But, since Firewire seems to be the deciding factor, one wonders what the fate of the newer but still Firewire-less slot-load 350MHz iMacs will be.

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm guessing the firewire requirement is only to support the Migration Assistant mode http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/setup/. Can't think of any reason why the entire OS would be firewire dependant. Anyone with a developer build tried it on an older G3 Mac?

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[ioErr]

Firewire isn't a requirement in itself, but rather an easy way to tell the age of a computer. Any Mac too old to have shipped with firewire is too old to be supported by 10.4

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[fermion]

If it won't load on my old powermac, now about 5 years old, then that is just stupid. Fully updated OS X runs perfectly now. It should have no trouble running Tiger. I don't know about 350MHZ, but 500 is plenty fast enough for anything. Any OS X will run in less that half a gig, although I wonder if older machine iwll need more memory to compensate for speed.

However, I cannot imaqgine using a SCSI based mac for any OS X activities. For one thing, how many were made with anything better than the original PowerPC. Aw, I see the iMac was, which is one reason why the machines are cheaper. Just not as likely to be useful as long.

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[Anonymous Coward]

If you've got a 500MHz G4, it has FireWire ports. If you're talking G3, it's too old.

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[Secret Agent 99]

Careful with that "tray-loading" business: all iMac G4 models are tray-loading, and they're definitely supported.

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[toddestan]

Why does Tiger absolutely need firewire ports anyway? I want to know what exactly will cause the OS not to boot if firewire ports are not present. And the impression I get is that it must be built-in firewire, an add-on PCI card won't do the trick (not that a PCI card would help the iMac owners much anyway, but still).

It would be like Microsoft saying that Windows will not install on a computer without USB. It's just stupid. My guess is that Apple is trying to get people to give up their older Macs and buy a new one.

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[beavis88]

For awhile, FW was an option on iMacs. My wife has one w/out, but I know you could get one (perhaps an "AV"?) with Firewire at the time. Wonder if we're still S.O.L.?

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[Anonymous Coward]

It's just stupid. My guess is that Apple is trying to get people to give up their older Macs and buy a new one.

well, that would be the tune here if it was any other company we where talking about. but Apple is doing it for our benefit - and in a really cool way, somehow

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[Benley]

Why does Tiger absolutely need firewire ports anyway?

Nothing, really. It's just an arbitrary dividing line to decide where the oldest hardware they are going to officially supprt is. In 10.3, the requirement was "needs built-in USB", which excluded the Beige G3s and Wallstreet G3 laptops. People gnashed their teeth and so forth, and then admitted that those machines are pretty much obsolete. When 10.0 came out, the dividing line was "has to be a G3" (with the one exception of the "kanga" Powerbook G3 which was a piece of crap). 10.0 through 10.2 could actually run on most of the PCI powermacs such as the 7300, 7600, 8500, 8600, 9500, 9600 with a little bit of coaxing. Would it have been reasonable for Apple to support those with the 10.0 release? Perhaps; a lot of people were still using those at the time. Would it be reasonable to expect the same support for those when 10.3 came out? 10.4? Where does one draw the line? When it comes down to it, it pretty much has to be arbitrary. At least they can achieve some simplicity by keying it to some feature that was introduced across-the-board at some point in time, such as USB and now Firewire.

Sun does the same sort of thing with Solaris, btw. Solaris 10 dropped support for anything that isn't 64bit clean - which includes all Ultra1s and many Ultra2 systems. People gnashed their teeth a bit and so forth, and got over it. Those machines are obsolete.

Older hardware lives on, of course, but it starts making less and less sense to use old Macs (and suns) as desktop computers. I still use Sun Ultra1 systems in several place - with solaris9 and OpenBSD. I also still use a Wallstreet G3, which won't even run MacOS 10.3. I think it's fine as it is. I'd rather Apple and Sun spend their efforts doing a better job on the whole OS rather than trying to support all hardware ever made until the dawn of time.

p.s. in thinking about it, IBM has done the same thing with AIX. AIX 5.2 and newer won't run on any hardware that isn't black. How arbitrary is that?

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[Uire]

As IoErr said, Firewire is a way to gauge the age of a machine. And I'm all for quick, grandmother-friendly ways of of doing this. And I'm also ok (though sad) about Apple dropping support for machines that are now near seven years old. They were pretty sluggish with 10.3 (though still acceptable to many), and I have a feeling that the days of each iteration of OS X working *faster* on old hardware are now gone. What I'm curious about are the exceptions to the 'no Firewire means old hardware' rule. Sure the slot-load iMac 350 isn't new, but it's much more modern and peppy than the original iMac. I suppose time, and possible install hacks, will reveal the fate of these grey-area machines.

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[taybin]

No, the later iMac G4s just used a slot for the CD.

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[Anonymous Coward]

I won't have to say adieu to mine. It's merrily running Ubuntu linux, as we speak.

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[Secret Agent 99]

Not true. The later G3 (CRT) iMacs had slot-loading drives, and the G5 iMac has a slot-loader, but all the G4s (Flat Panel) are tray loaders. (The link is to a description + photo of the final G4 iMac revision, and as you can see there's no slot-loading drive.)

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[davesag]

darn. my old g3 powerbook will be sad.

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[adrew]

Yeah, a G4/500 should work fine. I have a G4 Dual 450 (purchased in July 2000) that I've upgraded a bit over the years and it runs 10.3 beautifully. I've added more RAM, a faster hard drive, a SuperDrive and a video card.

The video card made the biggest difference since it supports Quartz Extreme and freed the processors from dealing with all the eye candy. If you're still using the original Rage 128, look on eBay for a 32MB Mac RADEON. I got mine for ~$35.

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[shotfeel]

Tiger doesn't, but having built-in Firewire is the easiest way to define the specs of the motherboard and supporting "chip set". Its easier than specifying a revision number or RAM type. Firewire ports are something you can see (or not) from the outside of the machine.

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[arminw]

...but it starts making less and less sense to use old Macs...

Actually, we still use an old color classic Mac running OS 7.5 as a full time fax and answering machine, running 24/7 every day of the year. We also still use it to program an old CP90 X-10 controller for some simple home automation. The thing just runs and runs, sort of like the energizer bunny!

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[byolinux]

I notice it's a DVD only too. I spoke to Apple Store UK who didn't seem to get that I have an eMac with no DVD drive and an iMac G3 with no DVD drive.

But apparently "it should er.. install across the er.. um.. network, if you have a computer with a DVD drive. Like a PC? Um. Yeah."

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[argent]

Why does Tiger absolutely need firewire ports anyway?

Same reason Panther absolutely needs built-in USB ports. To give them an excuse to drop support for older machines.

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[SenorChuck]

That's hard to say. I'm running Panther on a PowerBook G3 Wallstreet II (PDQ) and it doesn't have USB, as per Panther "requirements." It may still work. I even got it installed without the use of XPostFacto.

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[WMD_88]

The longest Apple ever supported a machine was nine years (Mac Plus, 1986, to System 7.5.5, 1995). The early PowerPC Macs were usually supported for six or seven (from 94-95, to 9.1, 2001). Many of the apparently dropped machines for Tiger are coming up on six or seven years. Not bad I say, considering all the extra "stuff" in OS X over OS 9.

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[poofyhairguy82]

Try to install it anyway. Screw Steve Jobs.

Your powerbook can run Tiger. Just wait a week till someone hacks it out...

Re:Adieu to Tray-Load iMacs

[myov]

It doesn't. Apple's trying to force you to upgrade. There's nothing in the OS itself preventing it from working.

FWIW, my beige G3 (and many older machines) is happily running 10.3 thanks to XPostFacto. I expect something similar for 10.4. (Why 10.3? My 10.2 discs wouldn't read)

It's no longer my main machine, but my G3 still proves to be useful as a backup/alternate/iTunes machine.

Personal very Excited

[monkeywork]

As a recent "switcher" I've enjoyed OSX and this update improves on pretty much all the items I use day to day. I'll be purchasing it as soon as it arrives.

Re:Personal very Excited

[sanosuke001]

Ok, the UNIX side is very nice for an OS like this, but if you don't know enough UNIX, most things are impossible to do. The other day for work, I had to turn on SSH for one user on a system. The OSX GUI let me turn it on and off, not for individual users, but for everyone. To turn it on for only one user, I had to go find the sshd_config file. What semi-saavy user is going to be able to go do that? They really do everything half-assed on the GUI side, don't they? Also, the only reason that kind of stuff is there on the UNIX side is that it's already been developed for them... lazy programmers

Re:Personal very Excited

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called "Mac OS X Server."

List of New Features

[ckswift]

Here is the entire list of the 200+ New Features:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/newfeatures/newfeature s.html

Re:List of New Features

[kimota]

And because we know someone will ask, yes, it supports 2(+) button mice! And that's not even a new feature!

--Kimota!

Re:List of New Features

[DavidLeblond]

IE does RSS and inline PDF (without Adobe Reader)??? Really??

Re:List of New Features

[Anonymous Coward]

You could have inline PDFs with a plugin a long time ago, this is just native to the browser now, no need for a plugin/Acrobat Reader.

Re:List of New Features

[alex_guy_CA]

That list just saved me $100+. I'm on 10.3.8, and I didn't see anything on that list that I personally thought would improve my life much. I should send you $10 as a thank you! (but I won't)

Re:List of New Features

[TylerL82]

Dashboard Keyboard Activation Preference
Easily change the default key that activates the Dashboard.

HOLY SHIT!
Apple is lightyears ahead in the preferences industry!
Who do I give my credit card number to?!?

Re:List of New Features

[silent_knight]

"Remappable Modifier Keys

Remap modifiers such as control and caps lock to be super elite."

I can be super elite? Where do I sign up?

Re:List of New Features

[Paradise Pete]

These are the new features?!

One-line descriptions are often inadequate to explain the value of something. What do you think, it's going to be list of things you've never seen or heard of anywhere else before? It the whole experience, and being able to do useful things with less effort.

Re:List of New Features

[Anonymous Coward]

Your loss.

Java 5

[2starr]

This is great news, but the lack of mentioning Java 5 makes me think that it won't be included right away. That's sad news for me...

Re:Java 5

[qwertphobia]

The rumor sites are saying Java 5 is on the way also, as a separate update. This way older applications have a better chance of working on an out-of-the-box Tiger install.

Re:Java 5

[XenoWolf]

According to http://developer.apple.com/java/faq/ Java 1.5 is available to download for Tiger, albeit as a "Developer Preview" - still it's there, and will be coming soon for full release

Re:Java 5

[larkost]

The information pages explicitly say that Java 1.4.2 will be shipping with 10.4 out of the gate. There have been rumors that 1.5/5/Tiger is being heavily worked on, and ther was even a rumor of a limited beta test, but no official word.

Interestingly, the info pages also mention that a lot of work has gone into speeding up the graphics on Java applications. This should be very good news, as that is the one slow aspect of Java on MacOS X.

Re:Java 5

[sted]

Yes, this is sad. But they managed to get gcc 4.0 on board (with xcode 2). And gcc 4.0 is still in RC1.

Re:Java 5

[prell]

Also, Apple has been busy altering/optimizing Java so that, for instance, Java programs can share packages/code with each other, similar to how shared/dynamic libraries work for native binaries. According to Apple, they have given this technology to Sun. Check it out: link.

Re:Java 5

[shawnce]

for instance, Java programs can share packages/code with each other

Apple did this long ago, it existed in Mac OS X 10.2 in not earlier.

Re:Can't Wait

[Kosmatos]

Well, I can. I just received my Mac Mini a couple weeks ago (but ordered it 1.5 months ago) and am not happy to have to pay $129...

I should get this as a free upgrade.

Mac OS Up-To-Date Program

[Thu25245]

Tiger Up-To -Date details

Re:Mac OS Up-To-Date Program

[Anonymous Coward]

This is awful. I'm really pissed that I bought my mini when it first came out. Now, three months after getting it I find I have to shell out the full amount in order to get the upgrade. Way to treat your new customers Apple.

It makes me glad I switched. :-(

Re:Mac OS Up-To-Date Program

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

There was an incredibly amount of information about Tiger being on the way. I was going to get a mini earlier but waited for an official upgrade announcement of this kind. Hooray for me.

Mail.app subscriptions?

[DeRobeHer]

Can anyone tell me if mail.app handles imap subscriptions properly yet? Only checking for new mail in your inbox kinda stinks.

Re:Mail.app subscriptions?

[ghutchis]

What's the problem? If you go to "Advanced" settings for an IMAP account, there's a box that you can check for:

"Automatically synchronize changed mailboxes"

Works OK for me...

Re:Mail.app subscriptions?

[The Andersor]

How about Conferences in FirstClass? FirstClass is great for our school environment, but I would love to be using Mail for all of that. I realize that Mail probably won't be able to work with things like the Home Page Folder in FirstClass, but I can live with that if I can just get our Faculty Info and Campus News conferences to show up in Mail...

Re:Mail.app subscriptions?

[generic-man]

I checked that box. It only synchronizes at startup or when I manually click "synchronize 'Account'." When I get mail, either by clicking "Get Mail" or by waiting N minutes for the mail check to run, only the inbox is checked.

I ended up downloading a program called MacBiff to check my folders because Mail.app is so foolish about folders.

Family Pack Still Exists

[MBCook]

Just a quick note that despite some rumors, the family pack still exists.

• 1 Copy - $130
• 2 Copies - $200 (Save $70)
• 3 Copies - $200 (Save $200)
• 4 Copies - $200 (Save $330)
• 5 Copies - $200 (Save $500)

What a deal for multiple computer households. I can't wait. I just wish the free update for new Macs was retroactive to January's announcements.

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that Apple Math?

1 copy @ $130 X 2 = $260
2 copies @ $200 = $60 saving.

I won't even mention that in your haste to copy & paste you forgot to update the correct prices for more than 2 copies each.

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple OS software has never had any copy protection/license numbers or anything like that, so you can just use the same 1 copy as many times as you want.

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[generic-man]

Apple is all about choice. You can buy one copy, or you can buy five copies. The cost for 2 computers equals the cost for 3, 4, and 5 computers.

So the original poster assumed that families would otherwise buy one copy of the OS for each machine in the house. Since (as of 10.3) Apple doesn't require that you register each machine on which Mac OS X is installed, this is an Honor System thing anyway.

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[greed]

You know the family pack is good for up to 5 machines for $200? So 1 copy is $130, 2-5 copies are $200 total.

But the math errors in the savings column do take away from the GP's point.

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[the_2nd_coming]

though the lack of copy protection means that I can use the one copy on all 5 of my computers for 130 bucks :-)

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[justforaday]

Just because there isn't any copy protection it doesn't make it legal to install it on as many machines as you want. Some people do like to have properly licensed software on their machines...

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[Zemrec]

Yes...and you could do the same thing with Windows Xyz as well.

The point being that it goes against the EULA to install 1 copy of the OS on more than 1 machine. Apple's "family pack" has a special EULA that specifically allows installing on up to 5 machines.

Is there any software mechanism that prevents you from taking 1 copy and putting it on a bazillion machines? No. But they're operating on the assumption that people will follow the Honor Code.

I for one much prefer Apple's policy to Microsoft's.

(Although I much prefer [insert commercial or otherwise linux distribution name here] even better, but I digress...)

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[XxtraLarGe]

While it's cool that there is a family pack, the question I have is why does anybody buy it? I have two modern Macs at home (15" PowerBook G4-1.67 GHz & iMac G3-400 MHz), and most software I buy goes on both of them. Apple has never required any type of key to install its software and I have always been able to network the two computers when necessary.

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[Rude Turnip]

IMO, the introduction of the Family Pack is why Apple had to increase the number of authorized playback machines for iTMS-purchased songs from 3 to 5. Otherwise, you would have this hypothetical family with 5 fully-licensed Macs and the ability to play purchased songs on only 60% of the machines, without going through the hassle of authorizing/deauthorizing computers.

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[Anonymous Coward]

We buy it because in doing so we HOPE Apple won't go to the obnoxious lengths Microsoft has in protecting themselves against piracy.

As long as retards like you cheat the system, it makes it HARDER for honest, ethical people.

Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should. Jeez, grow up!

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[Anonymous Coward]

A notification has been sent to the BSA that one Michael Brinkman of Hudson, MI is a known software pirate. Thank you for your honesty in helping to crush software piracy everywhere.

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[XxtraLarGe]

Umm, their both my computers, and I seldom use both of them at the same time (only to sync data). I'm hardly worried about it, and I'm sure neither Apple nor the BSA are either...

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[fermion]

One of the big reasons why I use apple stuff is that there is not interegation for serial numbers. I want to keep that way, so I want to do nothing that encourages them to start implementing these measures.

Furthermore, the family pack is clearly presented as a method to work with users to keep the software easy to use, but allow Apple to properly license it's software. Compare this to what other OS manufacturers do, prohibiting even the movement of license from one machine to another.

So, as with anything, benificial systems require the participation of all actors. If you only have two machine, and you are poor, perhaps it is not such a big deal to install one copy on each. Or perhpas a five pack on six machines. But the reason you buy a five pack, even for three machines, is to keep the software easy.

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[poot_rootbeer]

But by installing your 1-seat license for OS X on 5 computers, don't you worry that when it calls home to Apple every night, they'll notice that you've got the same registration code running on machines with 5 different MAC addr.... oh, sorry, I forgot we weren't talking about Windows XP.

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[SilentChris]

Wow, what a dick.

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[NardofDoom]

Not that I'm advocating this, but there isn't any restrictions about buying one copy and installing it on multiple systems. There's no codes you need to type in (or at least there wasn't with Panther).

Buying multiple copies comes down to your ethics and/or how much you like Apple and want to give them your money.

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[Skidge]

Order it through Amazon and you can get a $35 mail-in rebate for the single version or a $50 rebate for the family pack:

Mac OS X 1.4 Tiger

Rebate Form

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[Loco3KGT]

Depending on the software it hardly matters if you're using either of them at the same time. A lot of software licenses only permit one installation on one machine. So the "but I can only use one at a time" defesne fails.

Either way you're screwed. Might as well just burn the evidence.

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[XxtraLarGe]

Actually, it's a non-issue. I had done this with my iMac & old PowerBook G3 when Jaguar 10.2 had come out. I already owned 10.3 Panther, which is installed on my iMac, and the PowerBook came with 10.3.8 pre-installed. The version of 10.3 that comes with the PowerBook DVD can't be installed on any other machine. No need to burn any evidence, I'm clean...

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people buy it because they are honest and that honesty helps to keep apple from having to require software registration and other dracononian measures. So if you have the means please purchase the software you are using. If you don't like the idea of paying for software or simply can't afford it, just look to opensource for your software needs.

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[WIAKywbfatw]

There is a restriction. It's called the license agreement.

By the way, your English teacher is probably crying right now. "[T]here isn't any restrictions"? I wouldn't mention it except I know that you're quite particular about getting these things right yourself, aren't you?

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[shotfeel]

Would have been better to emulate an ad company.

"Buy Tiger! Save up to $500 instantly?"

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[Anonymous Coward]

SC,

You are being paid to push the MS agenda. Please keep your emotional issues in check.

Thanks,
Your Boss

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[Mornelithe]

The post you're replying to was commenting on the math used. The real money you save is:

130x2 - 200 = $60 for two copies, not $70
130x3 - 200 = $190 for three copies, not $200
130x4 - 200 = $320 for four copies, not $330
130x5 - 200 = $450 for five copies, not $500

This has nothing to do with consumer honesty.

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[eclectic4]

No, you grow up!

*exits 2nd grade playground*

In reality, Apple's decision to not be total bastards with regard to it's OS registration/usage/upgrading/, etc... is that it's mainly a hardware company. Microsoft is a software company. Too add, Microsoft can be bastards about making those extra bucks, because the vast majority of the entire world's user base is using it's software. It's just far too good to pass up because pissing off your customers while being merely "fiscally responsible" won't hurt them that much. They will gain far more than they could ever possibly lose, in other words.

Apple, however, is in the hardware business (That is, as far as the OS goes. To my knowledge, Apple only sells one app over $999). The more people that are using their machines with the latest OS the better for them. Throw in the hippy free-loving attitude of its users (along with Apple's knowledge of that), the fact that they only hold 3% of that user base (no need to stifle it any more!), and the explanation is even clearer.

I don't know. I realize the damaging effects of piracy. I would never condone it and often criticize others for it. I merely wished to point out that many Mac users have been swapping and installing OS's on machines since the beginning of the platform. And believe me, Apple knows it. You couldn't possibly make it as easy as it is to install on more than one machine (there isn't one technical reason that stops anyone from doing so, not one. No serial number, nothing. Just install anywhere, anytime) without realizing it. I think Apple rides a very fine line, and is good at it, by charging what they do for their updates.

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[Barlo_Mung_42]

Wow, what a humorless dick.

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[Loco3KGT]

I still called the cops.

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[Anonymous Coward]

Is "Windows Xyz" anything like Apple Kittycat?

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[XxtraLarGe]

:-D

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep talking like that and Steve might stop letting you suck his cock.

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[krunk4ever]

what's the advantage of ever buying the 2 copy version if the 5 copy is the same price?

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[Anonymous Coward]

Where can you buy the family pack?

Re:Family Pack Still Exists

[drsmithy]

We buy it because in doing so we HOPE Apple won't go to the obnoxious lengths Microsoft has in protecting themselves against piracy.

Since you can't use OS X (in any meaningful sense) without buying an Apple hardware dongle (thus, having paid for at least one copy of the OS), they've got much less to worry about from piracy.

In short, Apple's business has a lot less riding on people using unpaid

Panther Upgrade

[Universal Indicator]

I am pretty mad. I went and bought a dual 2.5 GHz G5 about a week and a half ago because I could have sworn that I read somewhere that Apple will give you a free upgrade if you bought your Mac within two months before the release date of the new OS. That was why I bought my computer when I did. But it turns out, they will only give you the free upgrade if you purchased your computer today or later.

After spending $3800 on a computer, it is pretty damn annoying to find they won't give a little room on this.

Oh well, at least I can say I was using a legal OS for a few weeks anyway *wink wink nudge nudge*

Re:Panther Upgrade

[Reaperducer]

I could have sworn that I read somewhere that Apple will give you a free upgrade

Yeah, that'll hold up in court.

There has to be a cut-off somewhere, and no matter where that cut is made, someone is going to be hurt. This time it's you. I guess that's what happens when you make financial decisions based on internet rumors.

Re:Panther Upgrade

[cirisme]

You spent $3,800 based on an unconfirmed tidbit from here, and not based on what Apple says?

Re:Panther Upgrade

[menace3society]

Instead of steali^H^H^H^H^H "illegally copying" right of the bat, you could always call or email an Apple store and explain your plight. If you give them the electronic equivalent of puppydog eyes (no, not smileys), they might have leniency on your unworthy soul and let you get the upgrade.

Re:Panther Upgrade

[KillerDeathRobot]

Have you called Apple? They very well might be willing to give you a free or cheaper upgrade, especially if you tell them your little story.

Re:Panther Upgrade

[the_2nd_coming]

you should be mad at yourself. try calling customer service first to find out the real deal.

Re:Panther Upgrade

[TheRaven64]

I bought my PowerBook a couple of weeks before the Panther announcement. The terms of the Panther upgrade were the same as the Tiger upgrade - free for anyone who bought a system after the official announcement. I went to the Apple site and filled in my purchase date and AppleStore order (before the deadline), and they sent me a copy anyway. I suggest you try the same thing.

Failing that, you have a 30-day money back guarantee with a new Mac, so you can always send it back and get a replacement with Tiger bundled (or just email / 'phone them and tell them that you are going to do this if they don't send you a Tiger upgrade, and see if they agree).

Re:Panther Upgrade

[As Seen On TV]

After spending $3,800 on a new Mac, you really shouldn't be complaining about an extra $129 for a whole new set of features and functions.

Re:Panther Upgrade

[Bob[Bob]]

Heh... well, just think how more annoyed you're going to be if new PowerMacs come out next week!

Apple envy

[CCelebornn]

The more I see of MacOS X and the more features they put in there, the more I realise just how slow devopment on the Windows platform is. Think of the progression thats been made from Apple, then compare that to Windows. The last great leap was done with Windows 2000 IMO: but even then for the desktop users there was nothing really knew.

Spotlight, Dashboard & Automator all look like great additions. I know there are perhaps Windows alternatives, but can any of them claim to be as slick as Apples?

I'm a Windows user, but as time goes on the thought of an mac mini just to give the OS a try becomes more and more tempting.

Re:Apple envy

[Quiet_Desperation]

But... but... but... WinXP gave us that GREAT looking new interface! :-)

thought of an mac mini just to give the OS a try becomes more and more tempting.

Do it! Step into the light! All are welcome. All are welcome.

Re:Apple envy

[gl4ss]

I'd rather have them upgrade Finder to be something more usable, non-blockin, non-piece-of-crap than any of those features.

Re:Apple envy

[GileadGreene]

Don't let it tempt you: just do it! I switched to a Powerbook about 9 months ago, and I've never been happier with an OS - I've got the full power of Unix and GNU at my fingertips via the terminal, but all wrapped in an incredibly slick and easy-to-use GUI system that "just works".

Re:Apple envy

[brontus3927]

Not to be a troll, but in 2001 after XP was finalized, MS sent all of it's developers for intensive security training, which can be seen in SP2. From what I saw of the alpha release that got leaked a few years ago, Longhorn is going to a very major update in the way Windows works.
And is it really a bad thing that Microsoft has gone 4 years without foisting another OS on the public. XP has received a lot of updates in security and usability in that time, and they've all been free to anyone with a properly licensed copy of XP. Apple has released 4 versions of OS X in roughly the same time.

Don't get me wrong, I think of Apple in a postive light generally. While it might not be the next computer I buy, a G5 PowerMac will be within the next three.

I support Apple and love innovation, but what is wrong with issuing service packs?

Re:Apple envy

[TheRaven64]

Windows 2000 wasn't that great a leap. Upgrading from NT 4 with IE 5 (as I did), it added full DirectX and better hardware support, and very little else. Oh, and gradients in the window titles.

Re:Apple envy

[ceeam]

I guess if NT4 had USB support it would've still hold a decent marketshare. If you don't play 3d-games on your WinPC then there's really nothing great brought forward since.... 1997 ?!

Re:Apple envy

[jdog1016]

I don't think that anyone is denying that Windows has improved over the last ten years, but the fact is, if you look at the features in Windows 95 (average user experience ten years ago) to the features in Windows XP (average user experience now), there really isn't any significant difference in terms of features and capabilities, at least as far as the average user can tell. And as for the improvements that have been made in usability, security, and overall stability, these aren't really improvements at all--they're bug fixes, issues that should have been resolved ten years ago. Now the same thing is happening again. Windows XP was released in 2001, and since then, no significant changes have been made, and as a result, the user experience is arguably worse than it was ten years ago, simply due to this ridiculous amount of unhindered malware.

So, the problem with service packs is that they aren't real upgrades--they're just patches, bugfixes. A good example is the Windows Firewall--why wasn't it turned on in the first place? And yet Microsoft issuing a service pack to turn it on is an upgrade?

Anyway, just my opinion.

Re:Apple envy

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

"the more I realise just how slow devopment on the Windows platform is"

It's not slow. Longhorn is going to be the most substantial new Windows release since Windows 2000. It will be as different from Windows XP as Windows XP was from Windows NT 4.0.

Unlike Apple, Microsoft isn't set on a 1.5-year release cycle.

Apple's cycle is good for consumers, but as an IT profesional, it's easy to see that it's terrible for businesses. With Apple's cycle, we would have to upgrade our entire deployment to an entirely new OS every 1.5 years - or accept the fact that many new apps won't run on our older Mac OS.

With Windows, the only significant upgrade in four years has been XP-SP2. Even that was largely transparent for the end user.

Anything that changes on the desktop results in a slew of calls to my desk. With Windows XP, you can essentially configure the desktop so that it looks - and works - almost exactly like Windows 2000. That's a huge savings in time and labor.

"Momentum" isn't the only reason that Windows is popular in the enterprise. Microsoft understands how to create a new OS that integrates with our existing infastructure and applications. Apple's getting there, but each new OS X release is still a drastic departure from the previous release.

Re:Apple envy

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a game of cat and mouse. The last big leap for windows, from the point of view of the OS, was NT 4.0. 2000 and XP merely expanded everything to the desktop, but there were few real improvement in user experience.

At that point MS was arguable ahead, and Apple was muddled. Now Apple has a nifty new OS, and can play catchup with many features.

The issue really is that all MS effort has to go into maintaining the desktop monopoly, while all Apple effort goes into being cool. For certain people being cool is more interesting than being massively conformist, though nearly everyone wants to conform to some degree.

Re:Apple envy

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I love OS X, but I caution you to to keep your eyes open, or rather, don't have unrealistic expectations. Switching platforms is never totally easy, although I think adding a MacOS system is currently the easiest platform to switch to from Windows. The mini is a nice system, but if you are a heavy multitasker, as well use Firefox and Thunderbird, you will want 1GB (which you should upgrade yourself & not pay Apple to do it). I have 512MB and I still page out.

Don't expect things to behave the way you are used to, and feel free to experiment and read up a lot. I don't remember how many Google searches I did that included "OS X" plus the subject.

The biggest thing is you will want to run USB Overdrive because Apple's mouse acceleration controls are very limited.

The mini is a fine system, IMO, and it is my current primary desktop but I can imagine people giving up prematurely out of frustration just because switching to any new OS takes time. The base system is very good, and I have found a workaround for just about everything I didn't like.

Re:Apple envy

[daviddennis]

Innovation requires top-quality people.

Attracting top-quality people requires good pay, benefits and all that stuff.

Spreading your costs over a few million units instead of a few hundred million units means you have to charge more for each individual unit if costs are anywhere close.

As MacOS X has matured, the upgrades have gotten rarer. If my memory serves, this is the first one in about 18 months. Previous ones were almost exactly a year apart.

I don't have any problem paying as long as I get a high-quality product in return, and I have always felt well-treated by Steve's minions.

It might just be getting a bit older and a bit richer and not really caring that much about dropping $129. I can certainly understand the resentments of people who don't have the bucks to do it ... but at the same time people at Apple still need to be paid to develop the good stuff, and I'm happy to support them.

D

Re:Apple envy

[Moofie]

Service packs fix bugs. (Apple has those too)
Apple OS revisions add features and performance. (Mostly without catastrophic breakage of backwards compatibility)

I'll take Apple's innovation over Microsoft's "stability".

Re:Apple envy

[killjoe]

The RSS "feature" of safari is useless. Look at how clever firefox is in using RSS.

They should just adopt firefox and use the safari team to fix finder.

Re:Apple envy

[Moofie]

Do you have anything that substantiates your contention that you'd have to re-develop your app every year and a half? That really doesn't make a lot of sense. By and large, OSX releases have added features, not taken them away. Certainly nothing that a patch to your app couldn't easily remedy.

Microsoft's OS releases are scary. By and large, Apple's are fairly seamless. (Yes, there are of course conspicuous anecdotes that contradict my broad generalization)

Re: Apple envy

[gidds]

Personally, I'd consider that to be less important, for the simple reason that the Finder is replaceable. Other people can (and have) written other file-desktop apps which you could run instead of Finder. Whereas the core bits of the OS aren't so easy to swap out.

Anyway, isn't calling Finder a 'piece of crap' putting it a little strongly? I'm still running 10.2, and although the Finder's not perfect (it doesn't like folders with hundreds of files, it doesn't handle external servers well, and the three views aren't quite consistent) it's still perfectly usable and most of it is pretty good.

Re:Apple envy

[Skraut]

I've always wondered how much of this was the, for lack of a better word, sideways momentum, that Windows is forced to maintain.

Apple has the luxury of controlling the hardware and software, meaning they can spend minimal time on compatibility issues, and most time moving forward. Microsoft on the other hand has to deal with maintaining compatibility with a nearly infinite number of potential combinations. How much time has been lost making sure the new file system that won't make it into Longhorn will work on each and every motherboard chipset, SCSI controller, SATA adaptor etc. Yes most hardware venders provide somewhat good drivers, but in a radical change like that Microsoft is forced to define the new driver standard and assist hardware companies in meeting it.

Re:Apple envy

[brontus3927]

SP2 has a lot of patches and bugfixes (about 60), but it's a lot more than that.

• The firewall isn't just turned on by default, it was improved. It has an advantage over a third party software firewall in that its turned on before the ethernet device and turned off after the ethernet device, so its on the entire time your connected.
• Security Center is a centralized location to check status of firewall, anti-virus, and windows updates.
• IE6 now has an add-on manager, blocks pop-ups, and monitors downloads to protect against downloading malware
• Outlook Express has updated spam-blocking features
• "out of the box" wireless support
• Support for the NX bit. The NX bit has only very recently been available on a x86 platform.

Since most of these cover things that weren't around yet or problems 10 years ago, it's disingenous saying that they should have been resolved 10 years ago.

Re:Apple envy

[ColMustard]

Actually, Apple's release cycle is neither good for business nor bad for business. It's not like your business software will stop working when Tiger is released. I know many local businesses (well, the few who use Macs) still run Jaguar.

Re:Apple envy

[v01d]

Microsoft's OS releases are scary. By and large, Apple's are fairly seamless.

Do you have anything that substantiates your contention? Really, if you're going to complain about unsubstantiated claims, be consistent and don't make them either.

Re:Apple envy

[dustmite]

Windows 3.1 = Macintosh '84
Windows XP = NextSTEP '92

There was absolutely nothing new in Windows 95 either, and it was already far behind competition when it was released. If you've actually used many older computers since the early 80's, it would be very clear that Windows has always been behind and has always been holding computing back by at least 5 to 10 years. This has been constant. The only truly 'new' things since 1992 are Unicode, and poor security and malware taken to new levels.

Re:Apple envy

[Moofie]

I don't have to substantiate my contention: It's not my job to keep my parent poster's application running. I still run a couple Classic apps on my Powerbook, and by and large they work fine.
Windows XP SP2 breaks almost every app in my organization's portfolio. Our point of sale system corrupts its database if you run it on anything newer than Windows 98. And we can't get support, since Microsoft bought the developer and EOLed our version.

Yeah, it's all crappy old software, but we still need it to work.

Re:Apple envy

[TomSawyer]

Since most of these cover things that weren't around yet or problems 10 years ago, it's disingenous saying that they should have been resolved 10 years ago.

The decision to not care about security was made more than 10 years ago. The specifics of how windoze has been compromised time and again -- while not necessarily foreseen -- could have been avoided by common sense security practices that were already common in other operating systems.

Re:Apple envy

[dmarcoot]

if by cool you mean a system which works with few hassels, i guess your right.

Re:Apple envy

[BandwidthHog]

By that logic, if they are developing (innovating, if you will) at a similar pace, yet releasing half as often, those less frequent releases should be twice as, well, innovative, for lack of a better word.

Have you found that to be the case?

Re:Apple envy

[brontus3927]

1. Read my prior post where I reported that in 2001, Microsoft sent its developers for intensive security training.
2. Of course Windows has been compromised many times, receives more viri and malware, it has 90%+ of the desktop market. If Apple or Linux had 90% of the market, you could be sure that they'd get many viri, malware, and other security concerns.

I'm just saying you write hundreds of thousands of lines of code for an OS, put it on 90% of the desktop computers (operated primarily buy people who don't have any real idea of what their doing) and see how well yours works.

Re:Apple envy

[TomSawyer]

1. Read my prior post where I reported that in 2001, Microsoft sent its developers for intensive security training.

Last I checked, 2005 - 10 years < 2001, which leaves your first argument as "hey, M$ should be commended for playing catch-up."

If I had a habit of recklessly falling asleep with a lit cigarette I wouldn't expect high praise when I decide to quit smoking after the house is in flames. Especially if others kept warning me about what a bad idea falling asleep with a lit cigarette is.

As for your second point, complexity and popularity alone are not valid excuses for M$. There are plenty of more complex, more visible, and more mission critical operating systems that don't reach for their proverbial knees when a hacker, let alone a script kiddie, comes knocking at its door.

Re:Apple envy

[duggy_92127]

I'm a Windows user, but as time goes on the thought of an mac mini just to give the OS a try becomes more and more tempting.

Last year, I thought the same thing, and went out and got an iMac, just to try out OS X. My advice to you: do it. It's really a nice system, I very much enjoy working with it. I still game on my phat Windows box, but I do most everything else on the Mac now. I'll be shelling out for Tiger.

Doug

Re:Apple envy

[v01d]

I don't have to substantiate my contention: It's not my job to keep my parent poster's application running. I still run a couple Classic apps on my Powerbook, and by and large they work fine.

So? It's not your job to post on /. either.
I have a couple apps that broke when upgrading from Jaguar to Panther. Yippy. I'm happy OS X works so well for you, personally I've had better luck with XP, but neither are perfect. If you just want to praise Apple fine, but try to be honest about it: you're just another fan boy.

Re:Apple envy

[Gr8Apes]

In general I agree with you. I should mention I just bought a Powerbook less than 2 months ago. It would be nice to have a window within which your software was guaranteed to be current.

Several software manufacturers do this, primarily to move old stock out and to prevent a lag in sales.

While I personally can afford another $129, considering I just dropped $2K on apple in the past 2 months, perhaps they could see to upgrade me this time as part of that purchase? This would certainly engender good will among their customers.

Re:Apple envy

[wootest]

As someone that uses Cocoa, Windows XP would only equal NextSTEP '92 with a copy of Visual Studio .NET for a comparable framework.

The interesting thing with desktop OSes is that they have to run to stand still - people expect good, built-in support for the new industry standards that emerge (wireless networking, Bluetooth, USB2, DVD+-R(W)). It's the new features that you built upon them that matters.

Re:Apple envy

[Moofie]

So "fan boy"=="somebody who's had pretty good experiences with Apple's equipment"?

Mmmkay. Whatever floats your boat.

Re:Apple envy

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno, I bought a Mac Mini and all it did was make me appreciate Debian Linux so much more. OS X has a lot of neat stuff, but I really don't understand what all the fuss is about, it's not *THAT* great. It was actually kinda disappointing, I expected OS X to be a lot better from what I've been hearing from everyone. It is really great for a relatively new OS, though, but could use a lot of work to get things right.

Re:Apple envy

[Gr8Apes]

Well, the first virus wasn't written for a Windows system. The first set of major viruses also weren't written for Windows, but for UNIX systems. Amazingly enough, UNIX had the gall to run on more systems at the time. However, there weren't very many because most lacked the skill to compromise UNIX systems in this fashion, because of built in security in these systems.

Amazingly, even today, any updated UNIX box is infinitely harder to crack than a Windows XP SP2 system. Why? Because Windows truly lacks a meaningful security system, always has, and always will as long as the user runs as root by default.

Re:Apple envy

[Anonymous Coward]

Granted I am not an IT person, but I never truly understand this argument. There maybe special cases, but I think the development cycle argument is just an excuse to stick on Windows for personal gains.

Just because there is a newer OS, it does not mean that the company must upgrade to it. You can leave the working setup as is, running your un-updated apps while the rest of the world runs the new OS. It's not like the old OS expires at the strike of midnight the day the new OS is released. As far as security concern goes, Apple still release security updates for old OS, and for the most part, they are relatively painless to do. Should you have resources to upgrade your in-house apps, then you can upgrade the OS to the newer ones.

The only exception I see is if some apps must be upgraded and they require the newer OS while your own apps won't run properly on the new OS (unlikely). However, with commercial softwares, that is rather rare. Most of the new-OS-only apps are sharewares where their authors cut development time using new technologies and have no resources to support old OS too.

Re: Apple envy

[gl4ss]

Finder is a piece of crap on an os that is otherwise high class - having the basic file browser be something that has a habit for getting totally stuck is not acceptable(with network drives - and and to add to the insult that is finder is that you can't terminate it like a regular program and could be in a situation where you don't get even to a console and can't shut down the OS even, leaving the only choice to be to take out the battery when you're on a lappy). I have to use network drives quite often, drives with hundreds of files at times - so finder is not "perfectly usable" at this point of time! and i'm pretty scared of what it was before the current release as i've been told that it was even worse before..

so yeah, right now a better way for me to increase my happiness in my mac is not to buy tiger, but to buy path finder as replacement for the finder.

anyways.. my question was not just flaming away on how crappy the finder is right now... I posed the very valid and important question: IS FINDER ANY BETTER IN TIGER?

Re:Apple envy

[cirisme]

Another item to consider is that Apple doesn't do things radically different, but slightly different. When they created Spotlight they did things easily enough, create an indexing system with plugins for other app developers. When Microsoft does it... they redo everything. Look at .Net. Look at WinFS. instead of "merely" indexing the whole filesystem (which gives the same impression to end users as practically a whole new filesystem) they chose to go overboard and change the way the filesystem works. Apple's way is more sustainable, because it relies on small improvements over time that add up. Microsoft seems to want to change everything with each release rather than build on the previous iteration. (and before someone says anything, there are exceptions on both sides)

Re:Apple envy

[daviddennis]

I don't want to look like too much of an Apple apologist, since I happen to agree with you.

That being said, it was a well-known fact that Tiger was coming, and if I had been thinking of buying Apple gear, I probably would have simply held off until Tiger's introduction. (This happens to be an easy decision in my case since NAB is coming and with it new PowerMac models).

When you know what Apple's policies are - and you pretty much do - you should use what you know to time your purchases whenever possible.

D

Re:Apple envy

[Anonymous Coward]

I call "liar".
What apps of yours broke from Jaguar to Panther?

Re:Apple envy

[GileadGreene]

Whereas I came from 7 years of using Debian Linux, and immediately appreciated the integration of OS X, and the fact that things "just work" without requiring several hours of googling to figure out how to get them to work. Admittedly, it helps that the fink project has made so much free software available (via an apt repository no less). Don't get me wrong, Debian is great, and I still use it a lot. But as far as a desktop OS goes, OS X wins hands down in my book. Of course, YMMV.

Re: Apple envy

[elbobo]

You don't need to take the battery out to do a nasty reboot. Just hold down the power button for three seconds.

As to Finder being pretty damn shoddy for networking, I'll firmly agree to that. I've had it lock up repeatedly over the past few days, while doing large transfers over smb. I *really* hope they've fixed Finders' networking in Tiger.

Path Finder isn't an acceptable replacement to me, because I'm a spacial browser.

Re: Apple envy

[MrBlackBand]

... and and to add to the insult that is finder is that you can't terminate it like a regular program...

Yes you can. Just do a force quit (Command + Option + Esc), select the Finder, and click Restart. The Finder will terminate and restart.

Re:Apple envy

[elrous0]

I see of MacOS X and the more features they put in there, the more I realise just how slow devopment on the Windows platform is.

Yeah, like how Microsoft took forever to introduce a 64 bit operating system, while Apple introduced one a long time ago.

Oh, wait a minute...

-Eric

Re:Apple envy

[blofeld42]

I used NeXTSTEP-92, and it was better than XP. The double-buffered graphics in the workspace were way slicker, and display postscript looked nice. I think Apple has a significant advantage in the Cocoa framework. They can roll out fairly significant GUI apps in less time, and the whole infrastructure of the system is more amenable to development. Windows looks like a magnificent hack that requires more and more work to maintain. Of course, MS does have a lot of resources....

Re:Apple envy

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd rather have them upgrade Finder to be something more usable, non-blockin, non-piece-of-crap than any of those features.

Who even uses the Finder anymore? 90% of what I used to use it for I can now do with Quicksilver.

Re: Apple envy

[adam mcmaster]

And if holding the power button down doesn't work, press Option-Ctrl-Power and it'll reboot instantly (this is equivalent to pressing the reset button on a PC, so don't do it often ;)

Re:Apple envy

[dr.badass]

The RSS "feature" of safari is useless. Look at how clever firefox is in using RSS.

Clever? You can't even read RSS entries in Firefox (though I'm sure someone will post a link to some extention) -- all you get are headlines. There's nothing clever about being half-assed.

Not only can you do the exact same thing (as Firefox) in Safari, you also get to read entries, search them (in Safari and with Spotlight), and sort them, and you know, do things that most people that use RSS actually want to do.

They should just adopt firefox and use the safari team to fix finder.

You're like 15 years old, aren't you?

Re: Apple envy

[Anonymous Coward]

IS FINDER ANY BETTER IN TIGER?

In the build I have (a fairly old one), yes and no. I think it's evident that they're working on it.

Well, for one thing, when it gets stuck, you can relaunch it from the Dock menu.

It doesn't crash like it used to, but in many of the same situations (folder of thousands of files), it gets really bad at redrawing it's window contents.

Also, when creating thumbnails for a folder of images, it doesn't start eating 99% cpu.

I really don't know about network share problems as mine have always worked fine. But they're all AFP. I know SMB/NFS is supposed to be buggier, but I don't have one to try it on.

Re: Apple envy

[porcupine8]

That's interesting. I have never had a problem with network drives. When I use the mac lab at my school, I'm accessing my own account on the school's network, plus I connect to a group drive for the place I work that currently has over 1 TB of information on it. I've also never had a problem restarting Finder from the Force Quit menu on the rare occasion that it does freeze up.

Re: Apple envy

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes you can. Just do a force quit (Command + Option + Esc), select the Finder, and click Restart. The Finder will terminate and restart.

In 10.4 you can relaunch it from the Dock menu, as well.

Re:Apple envy

[Gr8Apes]

But that is exactly my point. I shouldn't have to time it for software, nor should Apple want me to. Hardware, that's a different issue, but software? It's detrimental to Apple's bottom line if large numbers of folks did this.

BTW, I did wait for the PB hardware upgrade, but you can only wait so long before you need hardware, and the software upgrade just wasn't important enough to me to push out my purchase. (Not to mention the uncertainty about timing of Tiger in Feb)

My point is that Apple should perhaps think about their policy in light of the large numbers of folks that are now looking at Apples, with many converting, and that a policy of a software current version guarantee would be in the best interest. Why, because the window of time for someone considering an alternate hardware platform will be significantly shorter than the window required for waiting for a potential upgrade. Remove that barrier, and people can buy with a much larger peace of mind.

Re: Apple envy

[Anonymous Coward]

I've had it lock up repeatedly over the past few days, while doing large transfers over smb.

That's SMB doing what SMB does best. Finder is just trying to give you that authentic Windows experience.

Re: Apple envy

[Creepy]

bleah - GUI - why would you buy a mac if you didn't want to use the terminal?

sudo killall -HUP Finder

jk :)

Re:Apple envy

[Anonymous Coward]

XP has received a lot of updates in security and usability in that time, and they've all been free to anyone with a properly licensed copy of XP. Apple has released 4 versions of OS X in roughly the same time.

You're counting minior updates to XP in comparisons to major updates to Mac OS X. Apple has released very many minor revisions (i.e. 10.3.1 -> 10.3.8), which equate very closely with most updates to Windows.

I consider 10.3 and 10.4 to be more significant upgrades than Windows 2000 -> Windows XP.

Re:Apple envy

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a Windows user (although my work servers are Linux, but that's a different story).

In a nutshell, Windows is a great product. They keep it up to date, and its API is stable.

The key point being its API is stable! I don't want a new release every 2 years - I need some OS stability, and the fact that I've been running the same installation of Windows 2000 for nearly five years is a great thing.

Sure, XP offers a nicer UI and some minor improvements here and there - and, more importantly, all WIndows apps run on it. As long as the OS is adequately strong, infrequent major releases are a great benefit to both users and administrators.

Re: Apple envy

[shotfeel]

to add to the insult that is finder is that you can't terminate it like a regular program

I don't understand what you mean by that. I can "Force Quit" Finder without any trouble. Did you mean something more specific?

I agree that the Finder does sometimes become "modal" when it really shouldn't (displaying previews), but overall I think its a great piece of software. Sure, app A does X better, B does Y better, C does Z better, but I haven't seen a general purpose file browser that does half what Finder does half as well.

OTOH, I'm all for making it better. As for your question, its all better and faster, or so I've heard...

Re:Apple envy

[Anonymous Coward]

The firewall isn't just turned on by default, it was improved. It has an advantage over a third party software firewall in that its turned on before the ethernet device and turned off after the ethernet device, so its on the entire time your connected.

In other words, it acts like the built-in firewall on every other operating system.

Security Center is a centralized location to check status of firewall, anti-virus, and windows updates.

It also treats you like a stupid, stupid, child.

IE6 now has an add-on manager, blocks pop-ups, and monitors downloads to protect against downloading malware

Dispite catching up to every other browser on these features, It still doesn't render web pages properly.

Outlook Express has updated spam-blocking features

Features which still are vastly inferior to every other solution out there.

"out of the box" wireless support

Not only was this claimed when XP was first released (remember those commericals with people flying?) -- it's inherent in Mac OS X.

Support for the NX bit. The NX bit has only very recently been available on a x86 platform.

It's also NeXt to useless.

IMHO, Microsoft doesn't know jack shit about designing a good OS, and they only manage to produce anything of worth incidentally. I say this having worked in Microsoft's QA.

Re: Apple envy

[plj]

leaving the only choice to be to take out the battery when you're on a lappy

This is bullshit. Just press ctrl+command+power to reset a laptop.

Re:Apple envy

[shotfeel]

As MacOS X has matured, the upgrades have gotten rarer.

And IIRC, that's what Jobs said would happen. When Panther was released, he said that the major OS updates would slow down.

Re:Apple envy

[shotfeel]

And they can run Jaguar and not have the worries of businesses that have to make the choice between upgrading to SP2 and breaking apps, or not upgrading and gambling on security.

Re:Apple envy

[javaxman]

I'm a Windows user, but as time goes on the thought of an mac mini just to give the OS a try becomes more and more tempting.

When you do, do yourself a favor and get ( or put ) at least 512MB RAM in that puppy.

They are nice, quiet tiny little machines... but I love my dual G5, baby!

Re: Apple envy

[gl4ss]

*Yes you can. Just do a force quit (Command + Option + Esc), select the Finder, and click Restart. The Finder will terminate and restart.*

huh? part of why i'm bitching is that you can't do that to finder when it gets stuck - it doesn't behave. you'd notice that other apps there have "force quit", Finder has "relaunch". that relaunch DOESN'T WORK when finder has gotten itself stuck.

and if terminal is not open already, or in dock, then launching it can be impossible unless you got something else in dock that you can launch the terminal from, where you could try to kill it(if it would die even then).

Re: Apple envy

[gl4ss]

ok, make it only way average user who doesn't know the keyboard shortcut to do it(that does a hardware reset, right? because it doesn't do a behaved shutdown if finder is stuck like it was on my lappy). apple prides in being easy to use..

Re: Apple envy

[gl4ss]

*I don't understand what you mean by that. I can "Force Quit" Finder without any trouble. Did you mean something more specific?*

I can't. there is NO force quit option for Finder - there is "relaunch" for it where others have "force quit". that relaunch doesn't work when you get finder to really freeze after it fumbles it's network drive side.

what i am intrested in is IS THIS FIXED IN TIGER OR NOT? come on, there must be some guys who have tried the leaked versions and would have solid info on the subject.

Re:Apple envy

[Cro Magnon]

Actually, in most respects Mac84 was BETTER than Windows 3.X. In fact, Mac84 was better than Win95, except for its crappy memory management and multitasking.

Re: Apple envy

[gl4ss]

the problems mainly manifest themselfs when you're browsing big directories, with thousands of files, through the network or when you're copying something over the network, or browsing some network drive and slam the lid shut and go on your merry way to bus or whatever and then open the lappy again somewhere else(no, doing this is not an user error and should be something that the os should cope with - it's apple after all), it doesn't cope well with having lost the drive(and for the record I've used samba for the sharing - equal has equally shitty, almost intentionally flawed, support for ftp but i won't even get there).

Re:Apple envy

[dadragon]

So what exactly is a 64 bit operating system? One that supports 64 bit address space? Apple has had that since 10.2.9, or is it something else?

Re:Apple envy

[jcr]

Oh, come on.. NeXTSTEP had its problems, but comparing it to Windows XP is really unkind.

-jcr

Re:Apple envy

[killjoe]

"Clever? You can't even read RSS entries in Firefox (though I'm sure someone will post a link to some extention) -- all you get are headlines. There's nothing clever about being half-assed."

What is clever is having the RSS feed show up in your bookmarks or toolbar so you can scan the headlines and see if you want to read the article. That's what RSS was invented for. RIght now I have slashdot, BBC news and my del.icio.us bookmarks on my toolbar.

With safari all you get to do is to actually surf the site and see the RSS version of the page once you get there. That's lame, even lamer then lame it's retarded.

"You're like 15 years old, aren't you?"

HA HA HA. That's very funny. I don't like finder so I must be 15 year old. Finder is the worst thing in mac os x. So tell me why you think finder is a brilliant way to get around your program and how nobody has ever come out with anything better then finder. Hell I used lotus magellan and xtree in the dos days and both of them were a thousand times better then finder. Buy hey don't listen to me, I am just a fifteen year old cos like only kids don't like finder. All the cool adults think finder is so l33t.

Re:Apple envy

[jbolden]

15 years ago Windows was a desktop system for home and small business users that were not contected to large networks at all. So problems with large numbers of users some of whom are hostile didn't exist.
More importantly Microsoft's product direction for corperate deployment was OS/2. Microsoft Lan manager was an OS/2 product that ran best with OS/2 clients. They didn't have anything for WANs.

The people responsible for the security failing of windows were the general public who made the choice to make a non network OS the core desktop operating system of a networked world. Now you can argue that Microsoft reponded badly on security to that choice, but the choice was the public at large's.

Re: Apple envy

[Smurf]

Sorry, but that hasn't been my experience (and judging by the other responses I'm certainly not alone). Maybe you have an additional issue in your installation that most of us don't have?

The next time the Finder hangs on you, try switching to another application (command+tab, Exposé, click other window or dock icon, whatever). *Then* try to invoke the Force Quit window (command+Option+esc or from the Apple menu). In the worst cases that works for me.

Regarding restarting the machine (if you really need to, but in my case that has never been Finder related), try holding the power button for several seconds.

Re:Apple envy

[dr.badass]

With safari all you get to do is to actually surf the site and see the RSS version of the page once you get there.

Uh, no. That's not true. Why didn't you just say "I haven't used it, so I'm talking out of my ass." instead of calling it "useless."

What is clever is having the RSS feed show up in your bookmarks or toolbar so you can scan the headlines and see if you want to read the article. That's what RSS was invented for. RIght now I have slashdot, BBC news and my del.icio.us bookmarks on my toolbar.

Yeah, Safari 2 can do this. It isn't clever. It's obvious. But unlike Firefox, you can *also* display any feed or folder of feeds as a searchable, sortable page. You know, like a real, actual RSS reader.

That's lame, even lamer then lame it's retarded.

Sixteen, then?

Re: Apple envy

[cheekyboy]

Finder does indeed lock up.

ibook -> wifi -> linux samba share...

if samba goes funny or you reboot, then finder can go stupid, point is, there are stupid bugs in it. (IE too can hang or use 250meg ram)

Re: Apple envy

[astrosmash]

...has a habit for getting totally stuck is not acceptable(with network drives - and and to add to the insult that is finder is that you can't terminate it like a regular program...

Well, that's a universal problem with any networked file system, including NFS and SMB.

The problem (as I understand it) is that you have all these network file system calls happening in kernel mode; if one of these calls takes a long time to complete or timeout, the process is stuck in kernel mode and cannot be killed.

The "no kill" problem happens on any OS, including Mac, Linux, and Windows. Try this on Windows: Open notepad, Select File->Open, and type \\google.com\foo. Notepad will hang for 5 minutes, and Task Mananger will not be able to kill it.

Using a network file system over an unreliable network is very painful. I used to blame Windows for this, but it really is a universal problem.

The unique problem with OS X is that there is only one Finder process, and most other applications depend on this process in some way. If Finder gets stuck in a system call and cannot be killed, your desktop becomes quite unusable. Microsoft has mitigated this problem somewhat in XP by running multiple Explorer.exe processes; it's harder to get the desktop and taskbar to hang, but it's still easy to lock up individual Explorer processes.

I access network drives on my Mac all the time without any trouble. But you're right, if the network goes down it is perhaps more of a pain than it needs to be.

Re: Apple envy

[The OPTiCIAN]

> Finder is a piece of crap on an os that
> is otherwise high class

Yes.

I wish I could have the gnome experience but with the driver support I get from mac os x.

I find my gnome workstation is much more usable in this respect. It has workspaces which work very rapidly and with the hotkeys reliable under all circumstances. And under metacity, you can drag and resize windows using control keys and moving the mouse. So hold down alt, click anywhere in the window - drag. Apple are praised for their user interfaces, but I don't think they've ever really had it right. The priority shouldn't be looking good, it should be that it looks functional and feels fluid. The default ubuntu setup is by far the best GUI I've used in this respect.

Unfortunately many aspects of the os x API are ahead of anything I've encountered on linux, particularly in the area of sound and java integration, and Apple have locked down some of the hardware specs meaning I can't get my laptop to support my wireless card under linux either :(. There's a cool UI tool called quicksilver that reduces my dependence on the stupid interface design enough for me to be only slightly uncomfortable.

Re:Apple envy

[killjoe]

"Yeah, Safari 2 can do this. It isn't clever. It's obvious. "

I am running a tiger developer preview right now. And no you can't do it with safari. All you can do is bookmark the rss page. Firefox presents the rss feed as a drop down like a menu. This means I don't have to stop viewing the page I am reading just to scan the slashdot headlines.

But hey keep lying, maybe somebody will believe you.

Oh and you forgot to tell me why finder is so great and l33t!.

Re: Apple envy

[foo fighter]

I've encountered the damned, frozen Finder as well. If even apple-option-esc doesn't work (the "Force Quit" keyboard chord, similar to control-alt-delete or control-shift-esc on Windows) you can always just hold the power button in for about 10 seconds and the computer will hard power down.

Re: Apple envy

[Anonymous Coward]

The Finder locking up during SMB file transfers is not the Finder's fault, it's the SMB file system's fault. Basically it's a kernel level problem. The Finder's file copy operations simply call through to the filesystem, so if it's locking up the filesystem is not returning when the Finder calls through to it.

Re: Apple envy

[Anonymous Coward]

I never have cases where you can click-hold Finder in the Dock to "Relaunch" and fails to do so. Sometimes, you have to "Relaunch" twice from the Dock to kill Finder. In my experience, the only time I have to power down my Mac is when I have a bad CD in the drive and can't click-hold Finder in the Dock at all and I was afraid I'd damage my drive if I let it chugging along to the point it'd admit failure to read the CD.

Re:Apple envy

[rthille]

Yeah, that really should have been
Windows XP NeXTStep 4.0

Re:Apple envy

[stripes]

Do you have anything that substantiates your contention that you'd have to re-develop your app every year and a half?

He didn't say he had to re-develop his app with every OS release, he said he gets calls from all his users when he upgrades the OS. That could be because a keyboard short cut was changed, or maybe an app added a keyboard shortcut so the shortcut from the services menu is overridden. Or the user is use to clicking "that little picture in the upper right" which "changed into a magnifying thingie, a blue one, does that do the same thing?".

When I use to work in the help desk at the UofMD we would get lots of calls about broken stuff after each upgrade. Sometimes we announced an upgrade, but for one reason or another we couldn't fit it into the service window so it didn't get done. We still got lots of calls about broken stuff after the non-updates too. I guess people either look around for busted stuff after an upgrade, or they call in with stuff that has been "broken forever" but claim "it worked before the upgrade" just to get the help.

I think it is a shame because it tends to make IT departments hesitant to change things until there is "enough" to make it worthwhile, which means when the changes come they are huge and then reenforce the opinions of some folks that "change is bad". More smaller changes would actually be a good thing for most people.

Clearly, however, I don't decide OS release schedules for Apple, or OS upgrade schedules for the worlds IT departments.

Re:Apple envy

[Moofie]

If you don't want to upgrade, don't upgrade. I don't recall Steve going to IT departments with a Louisville Slugger whackin' kneecaps of people who don't upgrade.

This is such a non-issue. My IT rollout schedule is not dictated by vendors, ever.

Re:Apple envy

[stripes]

If you don't want to upgrade, don't upgrade. I don't recall Steve going to IT departments with a Louisville Slugger whackin' kneecaps of people who don't upgrade.

Well, I was attempting to explain the original poster's point. It looked like folks didn't believe there is any downside to an OS upgrade. I felt compelled to point out that even if the base reasons are kind of weak, the number of people complaining about minor changes does consume IT resources, and once summed up really is something to think about when deciding when/if to upgrade.

Personally my rollout schedule is seldom dictated by "fear of the new", but I have far fewer systems to deal with then IT departments (my laptop, my wife's laptop, and the home server).

This is such a non-issue. My IT rollout schedule is not dictated by vendors, ever

No, although the longer you don't upgrade the OS the more software packages won't run, or won't have all the features (it is more common in OSX for a program to disable some features then to refuse to run). That probably isn't a huge deal since if you are afraid to upgrade the OS you ought to be at least as afraid to upgrade your applications.

More importantly though is how long the vender promises security updates. I don't know Apple's policy. I seem to recall something about 2 releases, if so they are kind of dictating a 3 year cycle (or if 3 releases, a 4.5 year cycle). Exactly how strongly that influences IT policy would depend on how much the IT department thinks their firewalls and mail scrubbers and the like protect them.

I would assume there is also an element of how long the vender will sell you the old OS (assuming you are buying new computers that come with the new OS and you need to "downgrade" to match), or at the very least how long the vender ships computers that can still run the old OS. Since I don't personally run the old OS for very long after a new one is released, I can't even guess at wether is is a real issue, or just theoretical.

Re:Apple envy

[Scudsucker]

You're forgetting a couple of things: NT4 was as dumb as a bag of hammers when it came to installing hardware, no plug and play, and only had Direct X 3.1 (IIRC). So in those respects 2000 was a big step up for a lot of users. As for XP, the only thing it has over 2000 is instant user switching.

Re:Apple envy

[Scudsucker]

Read my prior post where I reported that in 2001, Microsoft sent its developers for intensive security training.

All the security training in the world does you dick if you don't do anything with it. Microsoft's 1st, 2nd, and 3rd priorities have always been adding new features to their products to either take away a compeditors customers or give Microsoft's existing customers a reason to upgrade. This is why we have nightmares like Active X, IE integration into the system, and Personalized Menus.

Microsoft's talk of security being a high priority is just that - a lot of talk.

Re: Apple envy

[Scudsucker]

If you really want to bitchslap the finder, look up the process number of 'loginwindow' and kill it - this will completely nuke & relaunch the whole GUI, not just the Finder.

Core Audio updated, not new

[the packrat]

The Core Audio functionality is already presnt in older OS X, see all the MIDI and Audio Unit handling functionality we're all using quite happily in 10.3. Perhaps the original poster meant Core Image and Core Video.

Re:Core Audio updated, not new

[chasingporsches]

Core Audio is a new SDK and framework for developing audio-driven apps. it also includes device aggregation to combine audio devices together, and a new Core Audio Format that is a 64-bit file format for thousands of channels of audio. it is more than what was in panther.

Re:Core Audio updated, not new

[the packrat]

Yes, it is more than what it is in Panther. That's what 'updated' generally means. Unlike the other Core technologies in Tiger though, CoreAudio is not completely new. The SDKs for dealing with applications and Audio Units have been around for quite a while now. That's why all the sound software manufacturers are supporting AUs with such gusto.

Unless you want to claim that all the documentation on Core Audio dating from early 2004 was actually about tiger?

Don't forget Core Data...

[solios]

As discussed in this Drunkenblog interview. Of the Core fillintheblanks, it's easily the spiffiest.

The other feejurs, imo, are just fluff. Unless they've sunk some serious improvements into mail, ical and iphoto.

I don't want MORE features, I want the features they're shipping to be developed beyond vestigial buzzwords (re: OpenDoc in the OS 8 era).

Re:Don't forget Core Data...

[DiscoOnTheSide]

iCal has been improved a LOT and Mail is slicker than ever. Hate to say it but Mail whips Thunderbird's ass.

Re:Don't forget Core Data...

[solios]

Pretty much ANY developer love would improve iCal a LOT.

Mail already runs circles around Thunderbird for not-sucking in pretty much every way save the fricking interface. I use Thunderbird because it's the only freeware mail app that (a) doesn't use the goddamned drawer interface and (b) displays in three-column mode. I 3 three column mode.

Aside from that, the massive lack of keyboard shortcuts, irregular behaviour and extreme sluggishness are... uh... features, I guess- since the Thunderbird OS X team hasn't made any obvious efforts to fix 'em. :-|

Re:Don't forget Core Data...

[chasingporsches]

core data is cool, i'm eagerly awaiting the SQLite built-in handling. but don't knock core image and core video. core video allows you to apply filters and transformations to HD video in REAL TIME. thats pretty impressive.

Re:Don't forget Core Data...

[solios]

Yeah, but Core Data doesn't require video hardware that still has the new car smell to do anything useful. Which means it's of use to everyone who can run 10.4... which is a hell of a lot more people than those who are capable of running 10.4 and Core Video.

Re:Don't forget Core Data...

[soupdevil]

Mail... Ick. Every week or so I have to remind Mail to delete messages from my server immediately, rather than after one week. Deleting an account deletes all mail ever sent/received from that account. Are you kidding me? That has to be the worst flaw ever in a mail program. Changing email addresses does not mean I want to throw out all my correspondence from the last ten years.

Re:Don't forget Core Data...

[druske]

Here's a good overview of Core Data if that interview left you saying "Sounds great, but what is it?"

Re:Don't forget Core Data...

[DiscoOnTheSide]

You'll be glad to know that Mail ditched the drawer. It's closer to Outlook 2003 with glossy buttons on the side (it's quite a bit different than the rest of the Mac UI, it sticks out, but I like it.) I use Thunderbird on my PC and I have to say, more mail clients need to have the "Bounce Mail" feature. Mail keeps me spam free with that little button alone.

Re:Don't forget Core Data...

[DiscoOnTheSide]

1) I'm fairly sure there's an option under account settings to have it delete immediately 2) I simply make a new folder in Mail, drag all the messages to that folder, wait the few minutes while it goes thru it, delete, carry on. Just did it last week actually. Yeah, it's not automatic, but I've got 4 years worth of mail and I'd like to keep it, so I wouldn't have faith that the program will "know I want to keep it." Hope this was helpful.

In in!

[krautcanman]

I'll be one of the first to admit - I'm going to be one of those who will install it on April 29.

I'm especially looking forward to Dashboard, Quicktime 7, Mail, and (maybe) spotlight. The other features will also be a welcome bonus.

Re:In in!

[argent]

I'm especially looking forward to Dashboard

Why? It's pure eye-candy.

I'm looking forward to whoever is the first to liberate Dashboard applets from the stupid Dashboard layer and let them intermingle with the rest of the world.

Re:In in!

[DavidLeblond]

That would completely destroy the purpose of Dashboard. All the things you can do in DB you can already do outside of it... so that would be a pointless task.

Then again, so is porting Linux to an Atari which I'm sure has either been done or is in progress...

Re:In in!

[argent]

That would completely destroy the purpose of Dashboard.

The purpose of Dashboard is to have a better scripting API for making nice-looking gadgets. Having those gadgets vanish whenever you work on regular apps so you can't, like REFER to them ... that's so stupid I can't think of a good analogy for it. It's stupid as... a stupid thing... something very stupid...

Re:In in!

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm looking forward to whoever is the first to liberate Dashboard applets from the stupid Dashboard layer and let them intermingle with the rest of the world."

Agreed. If someone can do that, the widgets might actually be useful.

Re:In in!

[DavidLeblond]

The purpose of Dashboard is to have little widgets (ie Konfabulator) that are quick to look at and get rid of. And thats what Dashboard does. Don't quite see the problem there.

Re:In in!

[TylerL82]

Then you'll be interested in Konfabulator:
http://www.konfabulator.com/

Re:In in!

[Anonymous Coward]

I've used Konfabulator. I've purchased a license to run Konfabulator after the trial period.

It's currently NOT running - it was cool for about 2 weeks. Tons of information available via downloaded widgets. But they took up too much screen space (even if they were on the bottom of all windows)

I'm really looking forward to Dashboard. Primarily for the "vanishing whenever I work in my primary apps" feature...

Re:In in!

[Durandal64]

Why would I want to see Dashboard widgets all the time?

Re:In in!

[dr00g911]

A little birdy told me that they're just pure html, css and javascript.

Simply open the package in the browser and it's liberated.

I'm waiting to see what third party developers end up doing with that tech. It's pretty cool.

Re:In in!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a professional at this, let me help...

Something very stupid, that was hit by the stupid stick and then run over by the stupid bus. After it was kicked out of Stupid University and shown on Geraldo Rivera.

Re:In in!

[argent]

The purpose of Dashboard is to have little widgets (ie Konfabulator) that are quick to look at and get rid of.

Being *able* to get rid of them (like, say, pulldowns from the menu) is useful. being *forced* to is a different kettle of marine animals of your choice.

Re:In in!

[argent]

Konfabulator makes every applet a complete application, with all the memory and startup overhead of an application. Scripts and desk accessories should be lightweight, not full-sized applications.

Re:In in!

[argent]

Simply open the package in the browser and it's liberated.

I hope not, the security implications of being able to have full local system access from browser applets are Microsoftian at best.

Re:In in!

[argent]

Why would I want to see Dashboard widgets all the time?

Not "all the time" but "some of the time that you're working on other windows".

Calendar, flight info, weather, I can see situations where you'd want to keep an eye on or refer to all of these while you're working on other things.

Re:In in!

[Moofie]

Only if you're not interested in your free memory.

I wish the developers of Konfabulator would spend more time fixing memory leaks and less time whining about how Apple stole their ideas. And yes, I paid for the program.

Re:In in!

[Have Blue]

Just think of them as apps that all share the same hotkey to switch to them. I look forward to binding Dashboard to one of my mouse buttons, so I don't even have to reach for it.

Re:In in!

[argent]

Just think of them as apps that all share the same hotkey to switch to them.

You mean like Sidekick under MS-DOS on the original IBM-PC? Full points for retro chic, but zilch for common sense.

Re:In in!

[DavidLeblond]

If you didn't want to get rid of them, thats when you use their counter parts (such as Calculator.app). Its not like these functions don't live outside of Dashboard.

Re:In in!

[mrtrumbe]

One more time: dashboard apps are html, css and javascript. Not "applets." Not "ActiveX-like." Html, css and javascript have about as much access to your local disks as...well, any other webpage on the internet. Which is to say: nearly none.

Taft

Re:In in!

[diamondsw]

Um, Konfabulator?

Personally, I always found Kon got in the way, so I look forward to them being on a separate layer. Best of both worlds I suppose would be to allow placing some on the Dasboard layer, and some on the Desktop (I would like Weather shown all the time, for instance).

Re:In in!

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh the hoops you Mac users jump through just for the shiny effects.

Here's my dashbard- Start button -> Calculator

Re:In in!

[Anonymous Coward]

JavaScript is just a language. The object model exposed to it by the application execution environment it happens to be residing in can significantly change what it is capable of. In other words, it might very well be able to access system hardware and such if Apple chose to expose to it an object model that allows for same. (See also Jscript running under IIS in an ASP page for a current example of this.) HTML and CSS would then be just the display layer.

Re:In in!

[argent]

If you didn't want to get rid of them, thats when you use their counter parts (such as Calculator.app).

No, two big reasons no...

1. There aren't desktop counterparts for all the Dashboard applets, and because it's easier to write scripts that difference is just going to become more pronounced. Dashboard is going to be like Hypercard. If it was just a bunch of Cocoa or Java apps, I wouldn't care, but it isn't... what gives the *apps* so much potential is what makes the *presentation* suck.

2. What happens when you decide after you've brought something up in Dashboard you want keep it around while you work on something else?

Re:In in!

[argent]

One more time: dashboard apps are html, css and javascript. Not "applets." Not "ActiveX-like." Html, css and javascript have about as much access to your local disks as...well, any other webpage on the internet. Which is to say: nearly none.

That is unfortunately not true. They have access to your address book and other local data that it would be criminally negligent[1] if it were available from Safari-displayed web pages. Since I don't believe Apple is that stupid, I don't believe that they are just web pages.

[1] I'm not speaking figuratively here, I mean someone should go to jail if they've screwed it up this badly after all this time...

Re:In in!

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, they're both.

Some widgets (like the address book) contain actual plug-in code for local data access and will display (but but access records) within the browser. I just tested this.

Others (like the weather widget) are pretty much purely html, css and javascript and can display and work within the browser. Also tested.

It appears that Apple has already thought of the security implications.

Re:In in!

[DavidLeblond]

1. Huh? There aren't desktop counterparts for all Dashboard widgets? Name one.

2. Like what? Its not like Dashboard was made to house IDEs or even text editors. Most Dashboard widgets are just small bits of HTML that point to a website. Do you really need to stare at the weather widget and watch the weather change?

Re:In in!

[argent]

There aren't desktop counterparts for all Dashboard widgets? Name one.

The weather and flight tracking applets don't ship with Panther. They have them standalone in Tiger? I didn't see that on Apple's website.

Do you really need to stare at the weather widget and watch the weather change?

No, but I do need to have that kind of thing in the corner of my eye when I'm working at a colo or other field location where there aren't any windows.

Yes, right now I don't know of any Dashboard widgets for which there is no third-party alternative... but just wait. Dashboard is going to be like Hypercard. People will do all kinds of things in Dashboard just because scripting is so easy. That cool potential makes the ghettoization of the widgets so unfortunate.

Re:In in!

[k3v1n]

Cocoa is also supported...

If you need to dig deeper into the system, or if you need to tap into your own application to create a Widget that closely interacts with it, you can create your own Cocoa-based plug-in. These plug-ins work by providing a JavaScript object that's made available to the Widget.

(from http://developer.apple.com/macosx/tiger/dashboard. html)

Re:In in!

[DavidLeblond]

The weather and flight tracking applets don't ship with Panther. They have them standalone in Tiger? I didn't see that on Apple's website.

Apple has included an application called Safari that connects to this thing called the internet where you can visit pages such as weather.com or your local airline to get these things. Sorry to respond like a dick, but these are things that you look at and then get rid of not leave on your screen. And if you did, use the internet. Its not like either are hard to get to.

Yes, right now I don't know of any Dashboard widgets for which there is no third-party alternative... but just wait. Dashboard is going to be like Hypercard. People will do all kinds of things in Dashboard just because scripting is so easy. That cool potential makes the ghettoization of the widgets so unfortunate.

Right... BUT... Dashboard is made for (I'll say it for like the 3rd time) widgets that you need to look at and get rid of. People coding for Dashboard should know this. If you need to code something else, you use a different tool. Its not like Dashboard widgets use some new language... they're HTML, Javascript, and Cocoa.

Re:In in!

[argent]

Dashboard is made for widgets that you need to look at and get rid of. People coding for Dashboard should know this.

Your faith in your theories about Dashboard is touching.

Sorry to respond like a dick,

I don't think you're sorry at all. I run into this problem a lot: whatever Apple says is right, so anyone who actually thinks different is wrong, and you're totally justified in being a dick about it. Lots of people have been saying that Apple should make a headless low-end Mac for years, and there's always been people ready to slam them for suggesting that people should put ugly monitors on nice Macs. Now Apple says "BYODKM" and it's absolutely OK. When Apple was badmouthing flash players, cheap dedicated display-less devices like the Magic Star MP3 player were obviously a bad idea. Now Apple makes the Shuffle, nobody can remember arguing that it was a bad idea.

It's OK, I understand, you don't mean to be a dick. It just happens. Well, it's OK, I'm not really a traitor to Apple, according to this post there's a backdoor, moving Dashboard widgets off the Dashboard sceren will be permitted, you don't have to defend Apple's precious bodily fluids any more.

Re:In in!

[argent]

Some widgets (like the address book) contain actual plug-in code for local data access and will display (but but access records) within the browser. I just tested this.

Shit. We are going to be SO boned when people figure out how to fake out the Safari equivalent of security zones.

Re:In in!

[DavidLeblond]

Backdoor?? ITS HTML! Go into the .wdgt file, pull out the html file and all its parts and there you go!

Re:In in!

[argent]

Backdoor?? ITS HTML!

So are all the cross-zone exploits in Internet Explorer.

Re:In in!

[guet]

The best way to think of widgets is as applications which use webkit - they can do anything applications can do. If you download a widget it can potentially (via plugins) do anything on your system that an application could.

Weren't security zones a different concept designed to limit use of BROWSER plugins which used active-x and have system access, to ensure that they weren't used from untrusted sites on the internet? That doesn't really have anything to do with widgets - just because they use HTML etc doesn't mean they automatically use the internet or can be triggered from a web-site. You still have to download them.

So the important thing for Apple to emphasise is that people shouldn't download and run widgets from untrusted sources - unfortunately the low bar for entry on them does make it easy for script kiddies to disguise a malicious script as cute dancing cats or whatever. You could say the same about applescript apps though (for example).

Perhaps at some point they're going to have to come up with some kind of widget certification program.

Re:In in!

[argent]

Weren't security zones a different concept designed to limit use of BROWSER plugins which used active-x and have system access, to ensure that they weren't used from untrusted sites on the internet? That doesn't really have anything to do with widgets - just because they use HTML etc doesn't mean they automatically use the internet or can be triggered from a web-site. You still have to download them.

That is precisely what security zones in Windows do, they say "if an HTML page is in THIS zone it has THESE rights, in THAT zone it has THOSE rights". In this case you have a "local disk" zone where the webkit extensions work, and an "internet zone" where they don't.

I can think of one pretty obvious way of using a fake Quicktime file and a local file:// link that has the possibility of breaking this model. I don't know if it could be made to work, but you can bet there will be lots of kids with more time on their hands working on this.

KHTML, the KDE component Safari was originally based on, has a much stronger security model. To add capabilities to a KHTML browser you create what's called an "I/O slave". The webkit extensions should be "I/O slaves" and wouldn't be loaded in Safari or any other application that's used to display untrusted content (Mail.app would be another one).

Re:In in!

[TylerL82]

The Dashboard server prompts the user with a warning when a Widget is run that uses local-access plugins, allowing the user to allow or deny any execution of the Widget.

Re:In in!

[argent]

The Dashboard server prompts the user with a warning when a Widget is run that uses local-access plugins, allowing the user to allow or deny any execution of the Widget.

Microsoft has a similar pop-up for many cross-site scenarios, where ActiveX plugins or scripts are involved. They've done it for years. This just led to a "crying wolf" problem.

There should not be any access from core webkit for local access. ALL local access should be added explicitly at the application level, using a mechanism like "I/O Slaves". It's the only safe approach, and it is actually *less* inconvenient to the user.

Re:In in!

[SteeldrivingJon]

There's a big difference. The ActiveX popup makes it a pain in the ass to surf the web, because the popup will keep coming up whenever a page uses ActiveX.

People aren't going to come across widgets in the same way.

They're going to have to intentionally download them. There won't be surreptitious widgets stuffed into the various websites they visit in the course of a day. If a site offers a widget, it won't be automatically downloaded when you visit the site.

Re:In in!

[Yer Mom]

Flight tracking was in Sherlock under Panther.

Can't see why you can't have a widget permanently fixed to your desktop, though - unless it's just to make Dashboard not look like a complete rip of Konfabulator... Maybe they'll add it for 10.4.1.

Re:In in!

[argent]

There won't be surreptitious widgets stuffed into the various websites they visit in the course of a day. If a site offers a widget, it won't be automatically downloaded when you visit the site.

I find your faith in the intelligence of web developers charmingly naive.

Re:In in!

[TylerL82]

A developer could add a widget "page" via an iframe.
The alert a user would get about local plugin code is not a system-wide popup. It fits within the widget itself.

Re:In in!

[SteeldrivingJon]

While simple HTML & CSS widgets work in Safari, I don't think Cocoa-plugin widgets will.

If I'm not mistaken, the more complex widgets require something that is in Dashboard, but is not in Safari or WebKit in general.

Re:In in!

[stripes]

The weather and flight tracking applets don't ship with Panther.

They were in Sherlock. As far as I know they still are.

Yes, right now I don't know of any Dashboard widgets for which there is no third-party alternative... but just wait. Dashboard is going to be like Hypercard. People will do all kinds of things in Dashboard just because scripting is so easy

Well that one I agree with. However any dashboard that doesn't have cocoa or applescript parts will all run in Safari without any alteration (that I know of). I would expect it won't be hard for a 3rd party to make something to let you run your choice of widgets as "standalone" apps.

No, but I do need to have that kind of thing in the corner of my eye when I'm working at a colo or other field location where there aren't any windows

Well that one I think you don't want the widget version of the weather thing, you would want a tiny little menu bar version, or a docklet. The dashboard version is big and distracting, which is fine for a widget that only shows up when you ask for it, but not so good for a "corner of the eye" thing.

Re:In in!

[Anonymous Coward]

So the important thing for Apple to emphasise is that people shouldn't download and run widgets from untrusted sources - unfortunately the low bar for entry on them does make it easy for script kiddies to disguise a malicious script as cute dancing cats or whatever. You could say the same about applescript apps though (for example).

Yeah, except applescript is a pretty high bar to entry. I would rather program the dancing cats in assembly.

Re:In in!

[argent]

However any dashboard that doesn't have cocoa or applescript parts will all run in Safari without any alteration (that I know of).

That's one thing I'd like to get more information about, actually. How exactly are they extending webcore and how much have they opened up for Safari. I'm worried that they're copying Microsoft's greatest mistake.

Re:In in!

[stripes]

That's one thing I'd like to get more information about, actually. How exactly are they extending webcore and how much have they opened up for Safari.

I don't know, the dev docs other have pointed to might shed some light on it. There are also tidbits in Dave Haytt's blog, including the statement that "This plugin will not be present in Safari or other WebKit applications, and is only accessible from Dashboard".

So it is my guess that while Dashboard is a WebCore app, it and it alone has the stuff that let you bridge JavaScript to Cocoa, which makes it far far harder to attack someone with it via Safari or Mail.

Re:In in!

[argent]

"This plugin will not be present in Safari or other WebKit applications, and is only accessible from Dashboard".

Unfortunately, they are using Microsoft-style "zones" for some functionality, which really bothers me.

Core audio...

[Anonymous Coward]

Core audio is not new. It's been around in OSX for some time now... it sure is a fantastic feature, but it isn't a new one.

Huh?

[Quiet_Desperation]

And "Longhorn" is better?

it's kind of annoying.

So learn to be less annoyed by trivialities. Or switch to decaff.

all it is are glorified service packs

No, that's Windows you're thinking about.

and for some reason, everyone buys into it

Or maybe they are just better informed than you are.

Seriously, you can call 200 new features, some of them altering how people will use the OS in fundamental ways, a service pack?

Re:Huh?

[sanosuke001]

I never said Longhorn was any better... I said naming every major patch is lame. Why don't they call it OS11-14 then? It's annoying because everyone is raving about OSX and all of Apple just because it has a UNIX backend now and that it ISNT Microsoft. It's even worse than Microsoft in some ways. Apple makes all the hardware and software. And because they make the hardware, the monopoly rules don't really apply. Who else sells a user level OS for Macs? I don't know of any... You mac people are worse than console fanboys at times. The GUI portion of OSX is awful. There isn't much that they could do to make it worse.

Re:Huh?

[sanosuke001]

Here you go... someone else posted this, but you might need to see it as well. http://www.apple.com/macosx/newfeatures/newfeature s.html what there is worthwhile? 200 new features? It has a DVD player... most people's computers come with one. It has JPEG2000 support... WTF? I really don't see much there, they have a calendar update? Who cares? Calendars only really have to do so much...

Re:Huh?

[toddestan]

And "Longhorn" is better?

Longhorn is a code name. It's not going to ship with that name.

Seriously, you can call 200 new features, some of them altering how people will use the OS in fundamental ways, a service pack?

Windows XPSP2 was a huge jump in the Windows world, and it was just a service pack.

Re:Huh?

[circusboy]

> There isn't much that they could do to make it worse.

well I guess there's nowhere to go but up!

regarding the other point, I think yellow dog has an OS for mac hardware as well, and I know ubuntu has a ppc option that runs very nicely on this powerbook. though I only really tried it for fun. gnome has improved a lot since I last looked, but not enough to make me "switch". (though you did say "sell" so they might not qualify...)

personally, I got apple because it works for me. and I like the GUI. it stays out of the way. my only real gripe is that the terminal is only 8 color.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows XPSP2 was a huge jump in the Windows world, and it was just a service pack.

I hope you're taking the piss. It's just a set of security fixes. There's nothing major in it at all.

Re:Huh?

[Quiet_Desperation]

So you selectively pick out some of the more minor features, ignoring the big paradigm changing ones, and... what? What's your point here?

Re:Huh?

[Quiet_Desperation]

I never said Longhorn was any better...

I know. I *asked* if it was any better. The only real difference is that Apple carries the cute name over into the release. So what? Who cares?

I said naming every major patch is lame.

Well, you refuse to see the reality that it's more than a patch, so there's nothing left to be said there.

Why don't they call it OS11-14 then?

Because it's a valid +0.1 release. They like to give them cute names. I really don't see why that should bother anyone.

It's annoying because everyone is raving about OSX and all of Apple just because it has a UNIX backend now and that it ISNT Microsoft.

Well, there's a lot more to it than that, but it's not worth arguing that can of worms here. If it annoys you, skip the Apple stories. I find a lot of the deep Linux stuff boring so I skip those threads.

It's even worse than Microsoft in some ways. Apple makes all the hardware and software. And because they make the hardware, the monopoly rules don't really apply. Who else sells a user level OS for Macs? I don't know of any... You mac people are worse than console fanboys at times. The GUI portion of OSX is awful. There isn't much that they could do to make it worse.

OK, so you hate Mac people and hate OSX. Blah blah blah same old same old ad infinitum. Whatever. One thing you bashers never consider is that there's really big reasons people like the Mac.

Again, why do you read the threads about it? I hate Windows, so I don't read much about it beyond what I need to survive the dismal experience here at work.

You can run Linux on a Mac if that's what you mean by "user level". That phrase can mean different things from different people. OS X works as everything from a server level to a daily use OS and you can even boot without the GUI to a Unix command line.

Re:Huh?

[toddestan]

I hope you're taking the piss. It's just a set of security fixes. There's nothing major in it at all.

I would consider it a bigger step than the 2000->XP jump, which was mostly eye candy and widgets that get in the way. And that was a paid upgrade.

Of course, you could also say that the things added to XPSP2 should of been there all along, and I would agree.

Re:Can't Wait

[GizmoToy]

Yea, but it's not like Apple hides their upgrade policy. The only way you get a free upgrade to the new version is if you buy the computer after the new OS's release date is announced. They've done this since at least Jaguar, if not before (relatively new Apple user).

Everyone knew Tiger was on the way, if it was the big of a deal why didn't you wait?

I just called too....

[kajoob]

I ordered a mini last friday, so I just called and spoke to the Apple CSR. She said any mac purchased before the announcement won't ship with Tiger and she told me about the up to date program ($9.95) upgrade. HOWEVER, it did not take any arm twisting to get her to take $10 off the purchase price of the mini so it's like I'm getting Tiger for free. Give it a try...

Apple Customer Service
1-800-676-2775

Re:I just called too....

[Justin205]

And even if you don't get $10 off the mini's price like parent did, $10 for an upgrade isn't too bad.

So it sounds like they'll be offering the upgrade on most computers bought this month, possibly?

Re:I just called too....

[trypnotic]

I just called too. I got my Mac Mini last Wednesday though.

The CSR was insistant that I wouldn't get the discount unless I actually purchased it today or going forward to the release date.

How well does Apple take to threats? Maybe I'll threaten to return my Mac Mini even though I'd never dream of doing such a thing!

Re:I just called too....

[WIAKywbfatw]

Is it worth all that hassle to save $10? Really?

Re:I just called too....

[Surt]

Sure, if you do it during work hours so you get paid for doing it. It's like raising your hourly wage by $10 if you can do it in an hour.

Re:I just called too....

[0racle]

How much does it cost you for getting fired for wasting your time?

Re:I just called too....

[daBass]

Erhm, I think you misread. If you bought it BEFORE April 12th, like these folks did, you don't get it for $10 but you pay full price. Only those buying between today and the release date get Tiger for 10 bucks.

How generous of Apple...

Re:I just called too....

[Surt]

Well, they'd have to put into place a no personal calls on company time policy, and define what company time was, so that isn't going to happen to me, nor do I think it's likely to happen to most slashdotters.

OTOH, I give my company a lot of time for free, so in my particular case I wouldn't really be cheating them.

Re:I just called too....

[gnuman99]

I don't know, how much does it cost getting fired for posting on slashdot during work hours, Bob?

Re:I just called too....

[WIAKywbfatw]

OK, even if that is the case - which I'm perfectly happy to concede without argument - who's fault is that?

Anyone who's even vaguely familiar with Apple - anyone who's read any Apple Expo news, anyone who reads any Apple magazines or websites, anyone who reads the Apple stories on Slashdot - knew full well that Apple were going to be realising Tiger soon. And, anyone who fit into that category also knew full well that they weren't guaranteed a free upgrade, and that how much they were going to have to pay for it would depend on when they bought their Apple machine in relation to the official launch/announcement date for Tiger.

How hard is it to put off your Mac purchase for a few weeks if you're that concerned about saving yourself the upgrade cost? If money's that important - and having Tiger as opposed to Jaguar is as well - then can't buying that new machine wait a few more days?

Come on, who's fault is all this? Apple's? How? They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they said anyone who bought their machine in the last year was entitled to a free upgrade you'd still have someone who'd bought their machine 366 days ago posting here about how pissed off he felt at the injustice of it all.

Re:I just called too....

[0racle]

2 weeks pay.

Re:I just called too....

[daBass]

Yeah, but they'd have less to complain about. Apple is the only company that regularly pisses their customers off like this and still has a cult following.

And what about all those people that "should have waited", that could have meant nobody buying any hardware the past 3 months, giving them one heck of a Q1-05.

Now these people will buy their hardware for the same price in Q2 and get Tiger for free! Apple would probably have made more, or the same amount, of money and pissed of far fewer folks by having a 50% version for customers who bought new hardware in, say, the past 6 months.

Re:I just called too....

[d34thm0nk3y]

I don't think the Mac Mini is really targetted at an audience that is up on all the Apple minutae. It seems mostly targetted at less tech. savvy people and ex windows users...

Re:I just called too....

[WIAKywbfatw]

1. The people posting here are (or should be) "up on all the Apple minutae". They have no excuses for not knowing that Tiger was immenent, because it's been talked about on Slashdot at least once a month for the past few months.

2. Most of the "less tech. savvy people and ex windows users" who've bought Mac Minis prior to the official release of Tiger are undoubtedly happy with what they've got and probably don't even know Tiger exists: can you really miss something you don't even know about?

3. It's not just Mac Mini owners that are affected by Apple's well-known and well-established upgrade policy; other Mac owners are affected too. In fact, I'd go as far to say Mac Mini owners are most probably a very small percentage (maybe 5 percent at most?) of the Jaguar-using Mac community. Everyone else has to live with it, so why should Mac Mini owners be any different?

4. Software development costs money. Someone has to pay for it and that someone is the customer. And that means upgrade customers as well as new ones: why should new customers subsidise existing ones? Like I said before, no matter where you draw the line there's always going to be someone who's disappointed that you drew it just too short for them.

Re:I just called too....

[WIAKywbfatw]

Really? Apple is the only company that does this? What complete and utter rubbish.

When Microsoft releases a new version of Windows does it give free or even cheaper upgrades to people that purchased the previous version just prior to the launch? No, they don't and neither do a lot of other software companies. Some do, and that's a good thing, but let's not pretend that Apple is unique in its position with regards to who does and who doesn't qualify for a free or minimal-cost upgrade.

Re:I just called too....

[Anonymous Coward]

Ehh. I already own two macs, so buying the mini wasn't really going to be delayed by Tiger. I am just going to buy the family pack for Tiger.

Re:I just called too....

[general hapablap]

I actually bought a 15" PowerBook last night. I had poked around and older postings on places like Slashdot gave a reasonable assurance that Apple wouldn't do something really dumb like give you 17 days. Huh!?! Anyhow, I called the Apple care line today. Apparently many Slashdotters had gotten there first: I got a recording stating how I had to have purchased it TODAY, not at 9:00pm last night. Luckily, I dropped by the Apple Store on the way home from work (nicely missing a hailstorm!). The guy I spoke to put up a token resistance until I pointed out that I had just dropped $2200 on my very first Apple product the night before. He then rang up the system as a return, credited it to a gift card, and then used the gift card to pay for the system, giving me an April 12th purchase date. Very cool and I hope someone from Apple is reading this - THIS IS HOW YOU GET NEW CUSTOMERS AND KEEP YOUR OLD ONES. I'd like to send a note in to praise the guy that helped me, but hesitant since I don't wish to get him in trouble for doing the right thing and taking care of the customer. Anyway, as a Solaris and Linux admin (I also run OpenBSD here at home), I'm impressed with my PowerBook and am pretty happy with the local Apple Store (St. Louis, MO).

Re:I just called too....

[Baricom]

Very cool and I hope someone from Apple is reading this - THIS IS HOW YOU GET NEW CUSTOMERS AND KEEP YOUR OLD ONES.

Heck, I hope somebody from every $EVIL_COMPANY we normally scold on Slashdot is reading this. Getting rich from treating your customers right seems so much more fun and fulfilling than taking their money just because you can.

On the other hand, I don't have much sympathy for all the parent posters complaining that they have to pay extra for the upgrade. Why pay for Panther when you know that the insanely great upgrade is coming out before July, at the latest?

Re:I just called too....

[Anonymous Coward]

You can cancel your order within ten days of placing it according to Apples website. Just cancel your order and place it again.

bonjour?

[circusboy]

I see rendezvous has been redubbed again,

nom de plume or nom du guerre?

(pardon my unpardonnáble french...)

Re:bonjour?

[GizmoToy]

Yea, Apple got sued by another networking company (sorry, can't remember the name off-hand) that owned the rights to the name Rendevous. Part of the settlement was that Apple change the name of its zeroconf implementation. They chose the unfortunate-sounding backup name Bonjour.

Re:bonjour?

[circusboy]

I remember, but wasn't it also "open-talk" or something for a bit as well?

Re:bonjour?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, of course - because far more people in the world are familiar with the language used by a few hundred thousand residents of a string of American islands than the language of France. A language also used in Canada. And in Belgium. And in Algeria. And in Switzerland. And in Vietnam. And in Luxembourg. And a dozen more.

Re:bonjour?

[Guy Harris]

Yes, it's now called Bonjour. Here's a video of the announcement.

Re:bonjour?

[stickystyle]

The other company was Tibco.

Re:bonjour?

[Anonymous Coward]

france sucks. their government is awful, they're snobby, and they stink. the french won't even acknowledge quebec, so that really says a lot for "french canadians".

so how about hello in another one of the big languages, like mandarin, spanish, italian, or german?

Re:bonjour?

[commodoresloat]

Actually, they owned the name Rendezvous. Rendevous is, I believe, still up for grabs :)

Re:bonjour?

[GizmoToy]

D'oh. Though that is such a common misspelling it would have been hilarious if they tried to rerelease it without the "z" to get out of the lawsuit. Although they'd get sued again, which would suck, hehe.

Re:bonjour?

[TylerL82]

...and "Bonjour" is a terrible name.
"Rendezvous" was a verb and sounded nice.
"Bonjour" is too "conversationally confrontational". You hear it, and your brain doesn't compute it like any other word in passing. You have a need to respond to it.

Imagine a brand new revolutionary product. Call it Hello. Now imagine people talking to eachother about it.

"Hello is going to change the world."
"I bought 50 Hellos for my kid yesterday."
"HELLO! I HAVE HELLO FOR SALE OVER HERE!"

Pretty much my favorite operating system...

[0kComputer]

Bred for its skills in magic.

Seriously though, I imagine well be seeing all these features in windows in a couple years. Pretty sad that I can't name a single feature in XP that comes close to any of these.

Re:Pretty much my favorite operating system...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well the original core methodoly behind windows is that it is basically a core operating system that allows interfacing with networks and components. Any software was suppose to be an extra, but i would assume that sometime in the future microsoft would have to bundle office software with windows.

Re:Pretty much my favorite operating system...

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you kidding?

What about the feature that tries to keep you from deleting the Outlook icon from the desk top? [You obviously don't understand how good this program is so we are going to keep it on the desktop for you...] Thanks to MS, I'm learning to be submissive and not question things. My marriage has never been better!

Or how about mysterious sudden changes in behavior? [Yesterday I plugged my camera into the USB port and I got the dialog box asking me what I want to do with my pictures. Today there's no dialog box and I have to hunt down how to turn it back on...] I'm fine tuning my hunting skills as I look for obscure features. I'm going to be an ace at next year's Easter egg hunt!

Or the "your child's essay was so bad we decided to eat the file so he can start over from scratch" feature. This has saved me 10's and maybe 100's of dollars in grief couseling if he would have turned in the original work and gotten a bad grade. Thank you MS!

You want features? We've got features!

Department

[Moby Cock]

from the forward-down-forward/down-punch dept.

Heh. Version 10.4.1 should be called Tiger Uppercut.

Re:Department

[Anonymous Coward]

That's wrong, anyway - it was F, D, DF+punch, just like Ryu (etc.)'s Dragon punch.

Re:Department

[stratjakt]

Zonk is one of those "Xtreme gamer d00ds" who probably has one of those vinyl devil may cry skins on his PS2, so he can post pics to various modder forums.

More appropriate would have been D, DF, F+high punch or high kick for a "Tiger!" energy wave.

Re:Department

[DrJonesAC2]

From the down down/forward forward punch dept

Soon to be followed by 10.5: Apple Hadoken

Re:Department

[Gaboo]

From the Up-Up-Down-Down-Left-Right-Left-Right-B-A-B-Start department: Version 10.4.2 should be called "Tiger: 30 lives on Contra NES" zing?

Core Data

[stang7423]

Am I the only one excited about the core data technology? In every write up of Tiger I have seen so far have not mentioned this new technology.

I mean come on. It gives you save, undo and redo functionality for free, no extra coding. Plus if you make good use of cocoa bindings in interface builder you could build a complete simple application with out writing a single line of code manually. That is pretty freaking sweet.

Maybe its just the geek in me but I think its cool. Plus you can save in multiple different file formats, binary, xml, or sqllite.

More Here: http://developer.apple.com/macosx/tiger/coredata.h tml

Re:Core Data

[Builder]

No, you're not. I'm actually holding off development of a new app because I'm waiting for this.

It will cut my development time by days and I'll be able to have a prototype out the door in a week. I really love the way it hooks into Interface Builder so that even during the dev stage, you can just lob a view to your data in there, and see how you think it will work best for the user.

The fact that you can save to something like sqllite means that it will be trivial to slap a web front end on your app as well.

Re:Core Data

[jwthompson2]

Core Data has the potential to be a huge aid in development, especially if it is as easy to switch between XML and Binary as Apple claims. I'm also looking forward to tweaking some of my existing apps to use it. One question that I haven't got an answer to though. Will there be anyway to backport the functionality, any ADC Premeirs out there know if Core Data's .framework will be embedable and able to be targeted to pre 10.4 versions of OS X?

If so, YIPEE...if not, ok...

Re:Core Data

[John Newman]

One question that I haven't got an answer to though. Will there be anyway to backport the functionality, any ADC Premeirs out there know if Core Data's .framework will be embedable and able to be targeted to pre 10.4 versions of OS X?

I have no idea, but Cocoa Bindings in 10.3 were the predecessor of Core Data - oh man, did they make my life easier - and apps built using them were only usable on 10.3. I wasn't aware of any way to embed the framework in the .app. So I suspect Core Data will be the same way. Like you said, "ok" - it provides motivation for others to upgrade, and it makes life SO much easier for developers.

To this amateur developer, it seems like Apple has made more real progress on that side of things than on the user side. First Cocoa & Interface Builder, then Bindings, now Core Data. It's already at the point where anyone with a modicum of programming experience can throw together a pretty impressive Cocoa app, and it seems like soon anyone at all will be able to build an app to do what they need (through either Cocoa or Automator). Truly empowering. I'm not aware of any such programming-for-the-masses progress being made elsewhere. And they give it all away for free with the OS!

Re:Core Data

[brainnolo]

Core Data was the missing piece in the puzzle.

If you adopt the MVC (Model-View-Controller) style you can see that the first piece has been Interface Builder, which eliminated the need to write code for the View in an excellent way.

In 10.3 Cocoa Bindings (accessible via Interface Builder as well) eliminated the need to write code for the controller functions for the values setters/getters through they Key-Value technology (obviously you still need to write the parts that do some actions).

With Core Data now you do not even need to write anymore a BIG part of the Model, the data containers. This makes you able to limit in most cases your coding work to the actual elaboration of data, avoiding the storing/retrieving part which is the most boring, and as Apple demonstrated, can be generalized in most cases.

Re:Core Data

[Anonymous Coward]

One question that I haven't got an answer to though. Will there be anyway to backport the functionality, any ADC Premeirs out there know if Core Data's .framework will be embedable and able to be targeted to pre 10.4 versions of OS X?

Nope. Core Data, like Cocoa Bindings before, are the bait for developers. It's almost too good to pass up. So, you make your app only work on 10.4, giving people more incentive to upgrade, Apple wins, developers win, users pay ~130, but they still win.

Re:Core Data

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, you are the only one excited about the core data technology.

Re:Core Data

[javaxman]

Am I the only one excited about the core data technology?... Maybe its just the geek in me but I think its cool.

You're *far* from the only one, but it is the geek in you. Someone who has never written a data-driven app has no idea how cool Core Data concepts are. Someone who's worked with Enterprise Object Frameworks in WebObjects wonders why it took so long ( though to be fair Core Data is a complete redesign that fixes/avoids some issues EOF had ).

Yea. Core Data. Solving problems common to application development. I'm not sure if it's cooler than Cocoa Bindings, but it might be more useful in the long run. Undo and Redo are just the begining ( honestly, they weren't that hard in Cocoa already ), it's the built-in document data serialization stuff that gets my attention. Yummy useful objects. mmmm.

Re:Core Data

[GrahamCox]

No, I also think core data looks great. Not that supporting Undo right now is difficult - in fact it's amazing! (As my sig suggests). However, anything that helps take the coding required away from the framework and into your unique stuff has got to be good - I'm really looking forward to having a look at the new APIs (since I am not in a position to afford an ADC Select membership or wangle one through my current job).

I do hope that for the average user the Finder is better though - I guess the addition of Smart Folders will pretty much address any shortcoming in the out of the box FGinder, assuming they've imp,emented it similar to the way I'm imagining it....

Re:Core Data

[mgbastard]

You are not alone. This is the single most important feature since OpenDoc. Okay that didn't pan out, but this is so damn useful. My only gripe is that they apparently wrote it from the ground up, instead of leveraging the decade long experience with EOF. (Enterprise Object Framework), but maybe it will have all the polish it needs to be a success anyway.

Then you are a dumb ass

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me get this right:

I could have sworn that I read somewhere that Apple will give you a free upgrade if you bought your Mac within two months before the release date of the new OS

Getting a free upgrade was part of your strategy, but you didn't check it out with the Apple Store sales person or atleast call Apple's 800 sales number to confirm? You just went on what you thought you remembered?

It doesn't even sound reasonable for Apple to offer a 60 day reach back on a free upgrade. Makes NO sense at all. Not to mention, there is no precedent for this in Apple's past (or MS for that matter).

Yeah you spent a lot ($3800) on a computer and the best you can do now is see if your week-and-a-half old computer can be returned, repurchased, and qualify for the free upgrade. If so, then perhaps they will save everyone the return trouble and give you a free upgrade.

64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[bats]

Tiger finally provides 64-bit apps, right? Not quite. In their 64-bit apps overview document, Apple slips in the bad news. Neither the Carbon or Cocoa APIs are 64-bit, so no graphics apps can be 64-bit. Their solution is to create a 64-bit command line app and wrapper it with a 32-bit frontend, communicating through pipes, shared memory, etc.

While that's all well and good and the Unix Way, its disappointing that graphical apps should be hamstrung in such a way. If you need big memory access and OpenGL, you've got quite a few hoops to jump through. As a linux weenie who made the switch, I'm saddened by crumbs we keep getting as Apple strings us along towards 64-bit land. Linux has been 64-bit for a very long time now and even Microsoft's 64-bit XP is fully 64-bit including graphics.

At least my G5 is still the 'world's fastest personal computer'.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[Anonymous Coward]

How, exactly, 64bit processing would help out gui toolkits? Core OS itself supports it fully to get support for high memory, and toolkits do not do or need any support for long ints and such.

Don't swallow the hype. Learn the facts.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[Have Blue]

That's not as much of a big deal as you think- most scientific programs and even some graphics programs (like Shake) are already designed like this. It's also possible to use large pointers from GUI apps by jumping through more hoops than this "simple" solution (i.e. it's not as easy as flipping a compiler flag, but it can be done), since there's a 64-bit-aware version of Photoshop already.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[TheRaven64]

Hmm. This limitation makes some sense. Most applications will suffer a performance penalty if compiled as 64-bit code (i.e. pointers will take more load / store operations). On x86, this is offset by the fact that 64-bit code gains a number of general purpose registers, but PowerPC does not get this boost, since it was designed as a 32/64-bit ISA originally.

It might have been a bit neater if they had kept the pointer size for Cocoa / Carbon (does anyone sane use Carbon?) as 32-bit, and provided a 32-bit malloc for data that needed to be bellow the 32-bit boundary, allowing 32-bit code to run at full speed, but this could very quickly have got messy.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[As Seen On TV]

You're missing something massively important. The reason why we chose not to release 64-bit versions of the UI frameworks is that they run much slower than the 32-bit versions.

User interface code is really pretty messy when you get right down to it. You're doing a lot of abstraction, moving a lot of pointers and integers around. On exactly the same G5-based computer, a 64-bit UI is going to run considerably slower than a 32-bit UI because of cache exhaustion. Because you're using pointers that are twice as big as you need them to be, you can only fit half as many of them in the various caches that are there to speed up your computer's performance. That effectively cuts your caches in half.

So we had two choices: Either waste a ton of developer time releasing 64-bit-clean versions of the UI frameworks and then tell our developers not to use them, or just don't ship them at all.

Believe me, the Final Cut Pro and Shake teams were pissed off about this. Their expectation was that they'd be able to release 64-bit versions of their applications by NAB. But a 64-bit version of FCP with 64-bit Pro Kit is less interactive than the 32-bit version on the same hardware, for very marginal gains in actual utility. FCP is already very good at making use of up to 2 GB of RAM when dealing with hundreds of gigabytes of data on disk; adding 64-bit support would have helped few and hindered many.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[Anonymous Coward]

They have to start the migration somewhere. They still have a lot of G4s out there.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[poot_rootbeer]

even Microsoft's 64-bit XP is fully 64-bit including graphics.

Imagine how much more pleasant Windows' user experience would be if they had prioritized UI functionality and refinement over developing 64-bit versions of all their various graphics APIs.

I think Apple made the right choice to leave Carbon and Cocoa in 32-bit-land for now, since the market for 64-bit applications is still pretty small. The feature list for Tiger is impressive, isn't it?

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[ColMustard]

Carbon still has its uses. C++ is still a popular language, and in order to kind of use it with Cocoa you have to go with Objective-C++, which is fairly crippled still. It's also more similar to the win32 API, so porting is easier. But yeah, it does look like Carbon is becoming less and less relevant.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah crap.. I don't have a single problem running 64bit KDE on my AMD64 laptop. No silly restrictions and message passing required, plus your 64bit apps get a decent speed boost over their 32bit counterparts. Only thing is you need a little more RAM - but it's not like Mac OSX doesn't already require a lot of it anyways. I think it's a pretty flawed decision Apple made - They could have kept the client version totally 32bit (Who needs and has >= 4Gb memory on a laptop or desktop, and if you do, go get the server version) and made the server one 64bit - that would have been a sensible choice.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[jcr]

pointers will take more load / store operations

Actually, it's worse than that. The app gets much bigger, making it much more likely to have to start paging.

-jcr

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[Selecter]

But dont you have to get the 64 bit UI thru the entire OS someday anyways? Whats the difference between having to code it now and disable it with a switch or something and having it done vs. having to still code it at the future date?

I'm not a programmer and I dont play one on TV, so be kind to me if I dont understand the issue - but if you COULD have coded it up and simply flipped the switch to it later, wouldnt that actually have saved developer time for another task later on?

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[shawnce]

I don't have a single problem running 64bit KDE on my AMD64 laptop. No silly restrictions and message passing required, plus your 64bit apps get a decent speed boost over their 32bit counterparts.

Your 64 bit KDE does the same "silly ... message passing..." and that silly stuff allows developers to actually get software out to you in a timely fashion (abstractions, API, OOP, etc.).

In the case of AMD64 and Intels clone the architecture gains new capabilities beyond just 64 bit integer math and addressing support. For example it gains additional registers that programmers can use. This results in the ability of 64 bit applications on AMD64 to actually run faster then a 32 bit equvalent (focus on just 64 bit pointers).

In the case of PPC the architecture was designed from the start to support 64 bit and it always has had 4x the usable registers as x86 architecture and I believe close 2x what AMD64 supports.

So the side benefit that you see with AMD64 doesn't take place with PPC since PPC already had it. The means that switching an application to 64 bit on PPC can actually degrade its performance since you have no side benefits coming into play to offset the loss do to having to pass around pointers twice as large (focusing on 64 bit pointers here because as of the G5/PPC970 Mac OS X application have been able to use 64 general and integer math, the later aspect of the G5 can greatly increase performance of some classes of application).

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[Enrique1218]

So basically, the full potential of the G5 sitting in the consumer iMac and maybe the Power Macintosh won't be realized for quite some time. Damn, not even pro apps like FCP or Shake is going used it soon. That is a real disappointment because what's the point of having a 64-bit processor if it is not being used in the lifetime of the computer. I sure hope dual-core processors offer something better than this.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[Anonymous Coward]

By message passing - I meant to say I don't have to do divide an application into two separate address spaces - 32 and 64bit and then have the 32bit UI pass messages to 64bit worker app and vice-versa. I can just code one single app - full 64 bit and use API, OOP or whatever in that single address space to get the real work and the UI done.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[Anonymous Coward]

64bit PPC processor supports 32bit apps natively. There is no emulation or performance penalties. So, until the day IBM removes this compatibility from PPC road map, there is no reason to have a totally 64bit OS, and from what I've gathered, IBM didn't plan to remove it from any PPC in the forseeable future.

The difference is Apple can take their sweet time to optimize the performance and do things right the first time rather than hurrying it up for something that won't be used widely and end up fixing/patching it over and over. Also, it provides a smoother transition, which is preferable when you have complex apps. Since there is no advantage (except for a handful people) in going full-blown 64bit, I think Apple made the right judgement call.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[stang7423]

Your missing the point once again. 32bit UI is faster and that is what the average user will care about. This all doesn't mean that the application can't take advantage of 64 bit pointers. It just means that Apple's interface elements were not upgraded to use 64bit pointers. There are still methods for allowing these pro apps to use 64bits in their complex computation. My guess is that the pro apps will have a 32bit GUI that talks to a 64bit backend with something similar to what apple refers to as Shared Objects now. This way you have your 64bits for complex computation and your 32bit fast GUI, the best fo both worlds

Remember: 64bits doesn't make computing 1+1 faster, but it makes computing (2^32) + 1 faster

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[shawnce]

64 bit address is NOT the only benefit to the G5 ... you get 64 bit general logic and integer math which software since Mac OS X 10.2.8 had the ability to utilize (Mac OS X 10.3 say several OS provided libraries and framwork recompiled/optimized to use 64 bit math as it made sense, speeding up several classes of applications).

Also as of Mac OS X 10.2.8 the system could fully leverage greater then 4 GB of physical RAM for use in the virtual memory pool (and of course UBC).

Tiger adds the ability to use 64 bit addressing for software linked against libSystem, which is just about any POSIX only sofware (command line).

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[Anonymous Coward]

So basically, the full potential of the G5 sitting in the consumer iMac and maybe the Power Macintosh won't be realized for quite some time.

The G5 is still faster than the G4, and still scales much farther. "64-bit"-ness doesn't necessarily mean faster. Yeah, marketing-speak makes it sound like it, but we've had 64-bit chips for ages and they weren't revolutionary.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[tim1724]

So basically, the full potential of the G5 sitting in the consumer iMac and maybe the Power Macintosh won't be realized for quite some time. Damn, not even pro apps like FCP or Shake is going used it soon. That is a real disappointment because what's the point of having a 64-bit processor if it is not being used in the lifetime of the computer. I sure hope dual-core processors offer something better than this.

Please note that "64-bit" encompasses two completely different things:

• 64-bit integer registers and arithmetic operations on those registers
• 64-bit pointers

Note that you can already use 64-bit registers and do 64-bit math. This is more of a compiler issue than an operating system issue. (The only change needed to the kernel is to save the full contents of the registers on context switching, rather than only the low 32 bits.)

What would 64-bit pointers give you if you could use them?

• ability to address more than 4 GB of RAM from within a single application (how many applications need that much RAM?)
• larger code size, resulting in greater memory usage
• slower performance, because less code can fit in the L1/L2 caches
• slower performance in low memory situations because you're more likely to have to page out more often.

How many apps actually need to address more than 4GB of RAM at once? Usually they're only doing that if they are dealing with big files. A process using 32-bit pointers can do this using mmap() and if used correctly the kernel can load the whole file into RAM (if possible) and just adjust virtual memory tables so that the same chunk of 32-bit address space points at different parts of the file as needed. The app just has to make the right mmap() call to cause the kernel to shuffle around the virtual memory mappings to change which physical page is mapped onto which virtual page in that process's virtual memory.

If you do need 64-bit addressing for some reason (although it's extremely rare for it to be actually necessary, nearly everything can just mmap() files instead), then fork off a separate process and let it do whatever needs to be done with that huge amount of RAM. Use your favorite form of IPC or shared memory to talk to that process.

What does Tiger give us that's not already in Panther? Well, all apps will see some performance improvement as various system libraries now use 64-bit operations for arithmetic where appropriate. Processes using 64-bit pointers now have some important libraries available, most notably libsystem (Apple's combined libc and libm) which was not available for processes using 64-bit pointers in Panther. Not all libraries are available in 64-bit versions (Carbon and Cocoa, for example) but there's no good reason for them to be. There's no good reason for it. Apps run slower when using 64-bit addressing on current systems, so only those rare processes which really need the extra addressing space should be using it, and user interface code certainly doesn't fall into that category.

Apple's information on 64-bit computing in Tiger is available here.

So you see, the full capabilities of your 64-bit CPU are being used. 64-bit math is up to the application writer to use the appropriate compiler options (and in Tiger the system libraries will also use 64-bit math internally) whereas 64-bit addressing is already used by the kernel (even in Panther) to handle virtual memory, allowing the use of more than 4 GB of RAM (although most processes will use 32-bit addressing and will thus be limited to only 4GB each).

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[Ulrich Hobelmann]

But you don't *have* to use 64bit values, do you? Even if the CPU does 64bit (like the G5), you can still use "lwz" (load word and zero) instructions, which basically just ignore the upper 32bits of each register. If you want to store these into memory in a 32bit value (because you don't use the upper 32bits anyway), again, "stw" (store word).

Only the part of the application that used 64bit values has to use double word instructions.

Now to pointers: even if part of your application uses 64bit arithmetic and maybe a huge 64bit address space, what prevents the GUI part to reside in the low 4GB of RAM? In my opinion, nothing, except that the malloc used in the program is too stupid. Well, just offer a special hi_malloc for high memory to use in the huge-address-space part, let Cocoa use the low 4GB. That way pointers can be stored in 32bits as well, since their upper 32bits are zero.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[Scott Byer]

This is a cop-out. It means the data structures need to be chosen better so that they're not slinging around pointers as much, and integers don't automatically have to be 64 bits.

So while it may be true that the 64-bit version of Apple's UI frameworks were slower, it's not true of frameworks in general, and would be more an indication of a problem with the framework than with moving to 64 bit.

And let's face it; all the tricks with dealing with more than 2GB of data on a 32-bit system aren't nearly as clean or efficient as just having the address space. The Final Cut Pro and Shake teams were right to be ticked off, and Microsoft got the 64-bit answer right.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[LemonYellow]

64-bit UI.... because that'll give you really high-res mouse pointer coordinates? Because you'll be able to have 2^64 menu items? Maybe so that each pixel can be 64-bit?

If you're writing an app that requires / would benefit from 64 bit arithmetic or memory addressing, writing the GUI and the business logic in the same executable is going to be dumb. If you're writing a text editor, who needs a 64 bit app?

Sure, in an ideal world one would have the freedom to write a 64 bit monolithic app, even if it did stink. In reality, having to write a separate UI layer and business engine isn't going to be a problem.

Say, have "Microsoft got the 64-bit answer right" yet? I seem to remember them taking ages over deciding whether to support AMD/IA64 at all or just Itanic, and hadn't released a final version of the OS. Maybe they've shipped Windows for 64-bit at last.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[Callitrax]

(does anyone sane use Carbon?)

unfortunately yes - OS X's market penetration isn't that good yet - OS 9 compatibility is still necessary when you have to develop for big city schools and libraries who have more pressing fiscal matters than shiny new computers or the annual $$$ OS upgrade (it appears to be $60/seat for up to 100 at educational prices)

Fortunately at this point it's more just updating than new development.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[bar-agent]

Carbon still does things that Cocoa cannot. Customized OSA support, more advanced menu support, more controllable text code, and bitmapped graphics are four things that spring to mind.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[Scott Byer]

64 bit UI, because it means you don't have to ship around memory just to display things, which isn't exactly cheap when memory bandwidth is so scarce. What? Just map shared memory in? Why, that's so cheap (not!) we should just do that. Just veneer malloc and keep all the UI assets in low memory? Ooh, yeah, that works so well (bzzt).

Yeah, separating out the UI from the business logic gets you *most* of the way there, but if what you are processing is what you need to display (e.g., video), most of the way isn't good enough and all the workaround schemes die in the 3rd ring of hell (OS overhead).

Sucks, but true.

Now, if you've got a kernel where mremap/madvise using shared memory is a small constant time operation in user mode no matter the chunk size being dealt with - well, things change at that point and doing a gemini-task application becomes interesting. I just don't know of one yet.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[As Seen On TV]

Excellent post but for one point. We're shipping a 64-bit-clean Core Foundation. I don't know if it's in Tiger or not, but if it's not, it will be available soon after. We're also already shipping a 64-bit-clean CF Lite as part of Darwin, so you can have Core Foundation support across platforms.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[Enrique1218]

You mention ability to address more than 4GB of memory. However, the iMac and some PowerMac G5 can't be upgraded pass 4 GB. I am sure that a few people will benefit tremendously from Tiger and the G5. But, from what read (your links included), I don't think most of Apple's consumer base (me included) will ever see performance benefit from the G5 over the G4 in the near future. To quote Apple, "Mac OS X's transition to 64-bit computing is a long-term effort. The support in Tiger for 64-bit applications is just the second of many phases. The timing and specifics of additional support for 64-bit applications will be decided with feedback from the developer community."That's why I hope dual cores (if Apple uses them) show more promise.

Your post was informative, but I don't think it applies to how I will use my computer. It won't afect my view of the G5

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[tim1724]

Well, you seemed to be complaining that Tiger wasn't going to fully use your G5. I was pointing out how it does so. You can do 64-bit math, and you can do 64-bit addressing if you really want to (but you won't). Plus you can use all the other good stuff the G5 provides (such as faster speeds than the G4).

Of course, it's possible that someone might want to use 64-bit addressing even on a machine with less than 4GB, for example if one wanted to mmap() lots of files simultaneously. They wouldn't all be allocated physical pages of RAM at the same time, but it would work. Although a bit silly. :-)

Don't forget, the G5 has a significant lead over the G4 in terms of clock speed, in addition to a much better bus. (The G4, even if it could be made to run faster, doesn't have nearly enough bandwidth on its bus to feed instructions and data to the CPU.) So there are very significant advantages to running a G5 instead of a G4.

Dual core is easy to take advantage of .. just be sure to run more than one application simultaneously (which is always the case anyway in Mac OS X .. there are lots of background processes running at all times). The kernel's scheduler will take care of distributing processes between the different cores, keeping them busy. No programs have to be modified at all. (Although an individual program will run much faster if it is multithreaded, as then that single program will be able to use more than one processor core at the same time. Single threaded programs won't see any change, except that there will be less competition for CPU time as other processes can run on the other cores instead.)

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[mojowantshappy]

Oh man, if you really work for Apple, you dropped a bomb about Shake and FCP at NAB. I guess we already knew this, but I work retail and we can't even remotely comment that kind of stuff. P.S. I need a real job working at Corporate.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[As Seen On TV]

Shake 4 and FCP 5 have been public since Christmas. No surprises here.

Re:64-bit doesn't include graphics!

[stripes]

I don't think most of Apple's consumer base (me included) will ever see performance benefit from the G5 over the G4 in the near future.

I have a dual 1.25Ghz G4 PowerMac, and a dual 2.0Ghz G5 PowerMac. The G5 is somewhere between 5 and 10 times faster then the G4 for my daily tasks (which are pretty much just doing compile/link). So I would say at least some of Apple's consumer base will see a pretty big improvement. I don't know if it is because the G5's CPU is more efficient, or the memory bandwidth is better, or what, but it is a significant difference. (I do know it isn't the disk subsystem because I've been using an external firewire drive, and swapped the same one between the two systems because I didn't expect that level of speed up!).

two for one!

[chipster]

Not only will we be able to get our hands on Tiger on the 29th, but we'll be able to head over to the movie theaters for The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy; http://hitchhikers.movies.go.com/

Re:two for one!

[ColMustard]

Well, at least we'll only have to face one disappointment that day.

Re:two for one!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't do it! It has very little to do with the book. And the review I read makes me very said at what they did.

http://planetmagrathea.com/longreview1.html

iCal update as well?

[Ayars]

Are they going to use this opportunity to update the to-do-list functionality of iCal? It would be great to have the do-list features of palm desktop (repeating todos, to-dos that carry over if not done, etc.) in iCal. I like the rest of iCal, but I'm still using Palm Desktop for the job list. Since the useless list from iCal syncs, this means that the do-list on my palm is useless...

Rendezvous axed...

[jmil]

... for automatic networking, now we have Bonjour. What the hell?

Quoth Phil Schiller, Vice President of Worldwide Product Marketing:
"It's so easy to use, we don't even know what to call it."

Re:Rendezvous axed...

[GizmoToy]

I just mentioned this in another post, but Apple got sued by the rights holders over the name Rendevous. Part of the settlement included renaming the technology. Rendevous and Bonjour are the same thing, with different names.

Re:Rendezvous axed...

[fracai]

there was another product named Rendezvous that decided they didn't like Apple using the name. Bonjour is the result

Re:Rendezvous axed...

[Anonymous Coward]

Rendevous and Bonjour are the same thing, with different names.

Is either of them related to Rendezvous?

Re:Rendezvous axed...

[WIAKywbfatw]

I'm guessing that most American Mac users won't even notice - after all, it's just foreign words, right?

OK, so that's a tongue-in-cheek comment but I'm guessing it's not as far from the truth as you might like to think. I do believe it was Dubya - with his Harvard education - who came out with the immortal line "The problem with the French is that they have no word for 'entrepreneur'".

Re:Rendezvous axed...

[Anonymous Coward]

No

Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't you just download the service pack for free when it's released?

Still no Java 1.5?

[esapersona]

From the apple.com website:

Recognizing this, Apple has made Java a core component of Mac OS X. Mac OS X includes the full version of Java 2, Standard Edition, version 1.4.2 -- meaning you have the Java Developer Kit (JDK) and the HotSpot virtual machine (VM) without downloading...

Java 1.5 has been out for over 6 months now, right? Have I just missed something?

Re:Still no Java 1.5?

[fracai]

a preview is available to developers and it'll be available to all at a later date

Re:Still no Java 1.5?

[Warlock7]

Sun writes Java for Microsoft, Sun and IBM. Apple puts together their version of Java for themselves, they always have. Sometimes this means that their version lags behind the one from Sun.

Hopefully they will get 1.5 out for Tiger quickly.

Re:Still no Java 1.5?

[Warlock7]

I haven't been able to get this from the ADC, is it available to all developers? I could really use it.

Re:Still no Java 1.5?

[FuzzzyLogik]

Since Java is built in they're probably just trying to get all the Cocoa bindings and stuff fixed up for 1.5. It WILL be released probably shortly after Tiger. It just wasn't as big of a deal, most apps use 1.4 anyway so out of the box almost all apps should work as they did in 10.3, 1.5 might break a few apps, so until it's stabilized i am thinking they are just going to stick to 1.4 until they are sure it won't cause lots of problems for end users. Give it another month tops and you'll probably see it.

Re:Still no Java 1.5?

[fracai]

the preview currently requires Tiger, so I doubt you'll see a link in your ADC account unless you also have a Tiger seed. it'll probably be available to all developers on the 29th or shortly thereafter.

Re:Still no Java 1.5?

[Anonymous Coward]

A preview is only available to big-time PAYING developers.

Re:Still no Java 1.5?

[fracai]

true, until Tiger is shipping I presume.

Re:Still no Java 1.5?

[shawnce]

Wow I must have made it "big-time" and didn't even know it.

Re:Still no Java 1.5?

[Warlock7]

Thanks, good to know...

Still under NDA

[kuwan]

Well, considering that it's still under NDA you're probably not going to see a lot of reviews on it. Or, you may see a lot of reviews that will then quickly disappear courtesy of Apple Legal. I did read a good one that I can't find right now (it was probably taken down) where the reviewer said that he couldn't go back to Panther after using Tiger. Tiger, even though the version he had was a little buggy, was so much faster than Panther that he'd rather live with the bugs than give up the speed. I think he was using either an iBook or a PowerBook.

Anyway, some real tests need to be done, but it's looking good so far.
--
Join the Pyramid - Free Mini Mac

Re:Still under NDA

[As Seen On TV]

That really surprises me. The feedback we've gotten from developers trying to use Tiger builds, all the way up to A420, is that it's far too slow for everyday use. It's much slower than Panther in those builds because nothing has been optimized. It has a lot of debugging code that makes everything run very, very slowly compared to 10.3.

I suspect you might have seen a bogus "review."

Tiger is a great OS. But the development builds are not fast.

Re:Still under NDA

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean this review?

Re:Still under NDA

[TylerL82]

The first half-hour of using Tiger might be noticeably slower because Spotlight's indexing the entire hard drive.

After the one-time full indexing, files will be indexed as they're created on-the-fly.

Re:Still under NDA

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been running Tiger since last weekend (no, I'm not under an NDA...unless there was something in the torrent file about the NDA... :)) and the only bugginess that I experienced was running third party apps compiled for Panther, like Firefox and Windows Media Player. Firefox was slow and the fonts weren't anti-aliased, and Windows Media Player simply wouldn't start at all. Safari seems *much* faster in Tiger, so I'll stick with that for awhile.

Re:Still under NDA

[iJed]

That really surprises me. The feedback we've gotten from developers trying to use Tiger builds, all the way up to A420, is that it's far too slow for everyday use. It's much slower than Panther in those builds because nothing has been optimized. It has a lot of debugging code that makes everything run very, very slowly compared to 10.3.

This is simply not true. The speed increases in 10.4 are probably larger than most other Mac OS X releases made. This OS made my 500MHz iBook feel as fast as an 800MHz G4 running 10.3.8 and Safari is faster still. Indexing does however slow things down for a while after installation.

Re:Still under NDA

[extra88]

Half hour? Not if you have data on the drive already. An Apple engineer told us it took more than a day for his computer (single processor G4) to finish all the indexing of his stuff. I'm not sure what he had but it sounded like he had 100+GB and it wasn't all video (video doesn't take too long because Spotlight only has to index the metadata, not the content).

Re:Still under NDA

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd think they'd do that prior to the install, even on the base image on the CD. So no, it shouldn't be noticeable. For pre-fab laptops, the same applies of course.

Re:Still under NDA

[tim1724]

With a dual G5 it only takes less than 2 hours to index 150GB, using the recent builds of Tiger. Early builds were significantly slower, but it's fine now. Probably even faster in the shipping version (rumored to be a later build than any made available to ADC members so far).

Re:Still under NDA

[nonsuchworks]

The review in the parent post (which orginally appeared on MacNETv2, BTW) was of a final candidate build, so it was much more finished than previously distributed developer betas.

Re:Still under NDA

[squiggleslash]

I[tt] surprises me it's out this early to be honest, what I heard is that Tiger's been delayed indefinitely, due to a major bug and a political issue. Apparently in tests, it took over 20 minutes to copy a 17Mb file from one folder to another. The copy, apparently, causes Netscape to hang, and puts a lot of strain on editors like BBEdit lite.

As if to add insult to injury, Steve Jobs has apparently dealt with this inevitable delay by ordering that the BSD-underpinnings of the operating system be stripped out and replaced with GNU or Unix code, citing an internal study that shows BSD developers in complete disarray, with usage - based upon Usenet postings - showing a definite decline in BSD support. Perhaps if Apple ported Mac OS X to Intel, they wouldn't be suffering these problems.

On an unrelated note, I've just heard on Talk Radio that the famed computer hacker Stephen Wozniak has died, aged 54. Whether you enjoyed his Integer BASIC interpreter, you can't deny his contribution to modern computing. Truly an American icon.

Re:Still under NDA

[psavo]

The first half-hour of using Tiger might be noticeably slower because Spotlight's indexing the entire hard drive. After the one-time full indexing, files will be indexed as they're created on-the-fly.

Come-on. Even Beagle in its infancy knows not to crawl the HD too aggressively. Google Desktop Search doesn't do the aggressive thing either. So there's very little reason to assume that Apple would do the quick&stupid thing.

Re:Still under NDA

[Y2]

An Apple engineer told us it took more than a day for his computer (single processor G4) to finish all the indexing of his stuff.

I can "first-and-a-half-hand" report 2 hours to index about 55 GB on a powerbook. After that, it is indeed quite fast.

Re:Still under NDA

[Anonymous Coward]

> On an unrelated note, I've just heard on Talk Radio that the famed computer hacker Stephen Wozniak has died, aged 54.

That's extra funny because Woz actually is 54! Well done. :)

Re:Still under NDA

[zwendell]

LOL

Re:lame naming scheme

[the_2nd_coming]

other than the fact that you state it is a glorified service pack.. what makes you think it is?

New APIs, new functions , new services... seems more than a service pack... but please Mr. Troll enlighten us all.

I know your answer:

"It is only a point release!!!"

and you know what... when you say that on /. everyone laughs at you.

Re:lame naming scheme

[Anonymous Coward]

Good point. Reason is more sales for Apple from the gullible. I am a die hard Mac user, but Apple's hype is just that hype. There is nothing much in Tiger that really interests me anyway. I bet the Finder is still buggy and still can't handle read/write FTP.

Sad

hot damn!

[circusboy]

the graphing calculator is back!

Re:hot damn!

[Mgdm]

It never quite went away - on my Panther machine it's in the MacOS 9 Applications folder. But this means they've updated it to OS X, which is nice. I have an OS X version from the guy who wrote it for Apple. It's been a free download for ages. Try http://www.pacifict.com/FreeStuff.html.

Re:hot damn!

[circusboy]

Actually I already had, some time ago, I'm just happy to see that it's being returned to the distribution.

I find the story of its creation very inspiring. I wish they had been paid employees during that time, for their benefit, but it's the group effort from everyone else involved that I wish I could be around more often. (if ever)

I would very much like to work in a place surrounded, (if not necessarily led,) by people like that.

iPhoto, iMovie removed?

[helixblue]

Is it me, or does it seem like they neglect to mention iPhoto or iMovie on the Tiger pages (other than integration). Do we now have to buy iLife in order to get these? If so, how lame.

Re:iPhoto, iMovie removed?

[GizmoToy]

The new versions of iLife and OS X are included on all new machines. iLife split off from the OS a revision back (Panther). This is nothing new.

Re:iPhoto, iMovie removed?

[TheRaven64]

iPhoto and iMovie have been part of iLife and not part of OS X for ages (at least 10.2, maybe earlier). They are, however, bundled with most new hardware. Perhaps this is what confused you.

Re:iPhoto, iMovie removed?

[DoctorPepper]

If you already have a Mac with these apps, and you perform an upgrade, no. If, however, you decide to do a clean install, you lose a lot of the iLife apps, along with AppleWorks.

I found this out the hard way with Panther :-(

Re:iPhoto, iMovie removed?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder what they're going to take out of this
version. Last "upgrade" they quietly removed the ability to copy audio CD's.

Re:iPhoto, iMovie removed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Truly. First they take away our beloved iTools. Of course that wasn't enough, so then they take away our beloved iApps. What's next? They're probably take away Quicktime! Oh wait... you already have to buy it to get rid of the nagware. :-(

Re:lame naming scheme

[koko775]

Because grandma can't remember 10.4, but she can remember "Tiger". It's that simple. How many times have you asked the typical Windows user what OS they run? They usually don't even know!

Re:yeah.. but..

[the_bard17]

Nah... those will be provided by the user ;o)

Liger

[TheClassic]

I'd totally making the switch if it was named "Liger." It's pretty much my favorite animal. It's like a lion and a tiger mixed... bred for its skills in magic.

Re:Liger

[MagPulse]

It was disappointing finding out ligers are real. I tried getting him to do magic but he wasn't having any of it.

Re:Liger

[Anonymous Coward]

What do ligers eat? Delicious bass?

Re:Liger

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a loser. Leave mommy's basement and get a life, magicfag.

New Feature: XGrid

[Chi Hsuan Men]

From the Mac Website:

Xgrid takes advantage of the power of distributed computing with Xgrid, Apple's easy-to-use tool that turns a group of Macs into a supercomputer.

Imagine a Beowulf Cluster of these... ...wait a minute.

Upgrade or clean install?

[kajoob]

As a new mac user that just recently switched from the windows world, I have a question for the mac people....

It's well settled in the windows world that an upgrade of the os is only done as a last resort - the first option is backing up, doing a clean install, then importing all your data. Is the same true for OSX, or will just upgrading tiger be the same as a clean install?

I finally have everything tweaked on my mini and would hate to have to reinstall all my apps etc. TIA.

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[Anonymous Coward]

The upgrade from Jag to Panther was completely painless, and I assume Tiger will only be that much easier. You absolutely will NOT have to format...as a longtime Mac user, I can assure you that's an exclusively Windows practice. I've never reformatted a Mac's disk to upgrade an OS, and never had problems that I didn't cause ;P
Just do an upgrade, and make sure to select the option that lets you preserve your current home directory and system settings. The Dock may rearrange itself, but you shouldn't see any other major changes.

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[mmkkbb]

You have long been able to do clean installs on Macs that stuff all the System stuff into a backup directory. I've not tried it with Mac OS X, but I think that is still an option (assuming sufficient disk space, anyway)

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[D'Arque Bishop]

Well, you're in luck. Mac OS X (as of 10.2) came with an upgrade option called "Archive and Install". Basically, what it does is it takes your old system files, puts them in a special folder called "Previous System", and then loads a clean copy of the new OS. During this install you're given the option of saving all of your old settings.

That's actually the method I used to upgrade my Powerbook from Jaguar to Panther, and it worked almost flawlessly. (The only issue was that my Palm HotSync Manager stopped working, but a reinstall of the Palm software fixed that.) I'd personally say it's the best way to cleanly upgrade your system and maintain your current settings.

If you want more info on Archive and Install (as of Panther), just click here.

Just my $.02...

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[porcupine8]

Nope, upgrading doesn't touch any of your apps, etc. Unless they've changed it since I upgraded from 10.1 to 10.2 (I'm skipping 10.3 on purpose) - I just popped in the 10.2 CD, it upgraded, and I kept using my computer. Well, I may have had to reboot, I don't really remember. But I know that it didn't wipe my hard drive clean or anything.

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[Rude Turnip]

When I upgraded my fiance's Powermac from 10.2 to 10.3, I popped in the disc, waited and rebooted. Everything was the same, except for the upgraded OS. The last time I did a straightforward upgrade of Windows was going from W95 to W98.

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[sammy baby]

I wouldn't really say that it's settled that upgrading the OS in Windows is only done as a last resort. I know people still using Windows 98, and my boss asked me today to call a friend of his still running NT 4 (!) as his home machine. My advice to these folks has consistently been, "upgrade now, you silly tool." (Or words to that effect.)

WIth that said, I wouldn't advise anyone to upgrade the OS without backing up your stuff first, and consider that rule to be axiomatic. I wouldn't bother backing up the Applications directory, though, just your user directory.

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's well settled in the windows world that an upgrade of the os is only done as a last resort - the first option is backing up, doing a clean install, then importing all your data.

Bullshit. Windows upgrades have no problem whatsoever upgrading an existing installation.

The computer I'm typing this on has not had a clean OS install since Windows 98 SE six years ago. It's now running XP, having passed through 2000 a few years back. And it's running just fine, thank you very much.

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[jocknerd]

When you start up Tiger, you'll see options to do a complete reinstall (erases everything) or an archive and install. This will archive all your personal settings and user folders. I used this on my mom's Mac and it worked fine. On my machines, I always erase the system and start over. Of course, I back up my user folders.

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[ColMustard]

That said, there are benefits to backing everything up and reformatting the hard drive before an OS install. For one thing, the hard drive gets a fresh start - hard drives are the most problematic component and should be reformatted every few years IMO. Another bonus is that you get another chance to setup your partitions.

But yeah, for most people an archive and install is much easier and is all they need.

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[NardofDoom]

I've upgraded every Mac OS X version since public beta and I've never had any trouble. With the releases you get through software update you should wait about three days to see if there are any issues and then upgrade, but I've had no trouble running a permissions repair and then upgrading to the new OS.

And I've never lost settings or apps.

Disclaimer: This isn't a guarantee. Your mileage may vary. Void in Canada and where prohibited. May cause drowsiness, dry mouth and constipation. Use as directed. Do not give to children under 2 years of age.

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[Anonymous Coward]

With Mac OS X reinstalling is the last resort and upgrading is the first resort. Most users happily upgrade without special preparations. Some people recommend performing a "Permissions Repair" with Disk Utility before and after the upgrade. And everyone always encourages you to have a good backup in hand, although I think most people just cross their fingers...

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[displaced80]

Basically, what you want is what OS X calls an 'Archive & Install'.

This takes your /System/ folder, and your /Applications/ folder, and puts them in a compressed disk image called (IIRC) /Previous Systems/Previous System 1.dmg.

Note, that your /Users/ folder can also be included in that image (if you don't check the 'Restore users' option).

Then, when the OS installs, it replaces any items /Applications/ which are bundled in the OS, creates a new /System/ and (if 'Restore Users' isn't selected) a new /Users/

The magic lies in letting it also restore your users. Your /Users/ folder is preserved. Remember that all your configuration is stored in that folder, so after the upgrade everything's set up exactly how you left it. /Library/ is also untouched, beyond what's replaced by the upgrade, so things like your network locations & settings are preserved.

Because the filesystem is pretty strongly 'scoped', an archive & install essentially swaps out your current /System/ for the new one, updating the odd item in /Applications/ and /Library/ as required.

You'll find it a very reliable process. There's rarely any need to re-initialise (think 'format') the entire drive. I'd recommend backing up /Users/ just in case, but your data and settings are pretty safe.

I've only once started from a completely clean drive -- and that's because I replaced the system drive with a larger capacity unit. That's in 3 1/2 years of Mac use, upgrading (using Archive & Install) all the way from 10.0.3 to 10.3.8.

Short story -- Archive & Install works very well indeed, and should do exactly what you're after. Enjoy the fact that the system enforces clear divisions between System, Applications, and User Data & Settings.

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[Anonymous Coward]

All my Mac OS X upgrades have been painless. No backing up or importing or any of that nonsense (although you can archive your old system if you're paranoid).

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[diamondsw]

If you want to avoid some apps breaking (like HotSync did), carefully merge the "Previous System/Library" folder contents into your new /Library folder. You have to know what's going on in there, but it's a lot faster.

If you don't know what's in there, app reinstalls work just as well.

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[nsayer]

I've only once started from a completely clean drive -- and that's because I replaced the system drive with a larger capacity unit.

I've even upgraded to bigger drives without having to do a full install. Carbon Copy Cloner will quite happily copy your boot disk to another drive that you can have sitting, say, temporarily in an external USB or FW enclosure. When it's done, you power off, replace the boot drive with the new one and you're done.

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[pik0]

When you get Tiger, just select upgrade. It will update from whatever version of Mac OS X that you have straight to 10.4 keeping all your favorite settings and whatnot. All your existing applications will still be there and work just fine. If you do the Archive and Install option. Just drag the apps you want to keep back in to the main Applications folder and use them like normal. Better yet, create an Applications folder in your user directory and cut out the middle man. Safest of all, you should have two partitions on your system. One for Mac OS and the other for Users. This would allow you to totally reformat the system partition and reinstall without losing all your personal stuff. Easy to do... :) Piko

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[displaced80]

*grin*

Yeah, I thought about doing that... but the geek need to actually use that 'Erase and Install' (or was it just 'Install'?) option was too great!

Never let convenience get in the way of finding out what a button does :-)

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[tgibbs]

The safest bet is to do an "upgrade and install," which is the OS X version of a clean install (but you don't have to reinstall your apps as a rule). But unless I hear of an unusually high level of problems, I'll probably do a straight upgrade, because that has always worked fine for me.

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[mveloso]

Well, you might want to wait a bit and see how it shakes out. Check the early adopter reports on macintouch.com and macfixit.com to see what issues people run into.

Unlike Windows, MacOS X upgrades tend to be pretty clean. If they go bad, though, they're catastrophic (FileVault, anyone?).

These days, I tend to back up, clean-install everything, drop all my documents back, and reinstall my 3rd-party apps. But archive & install does work pretty well (I did that on another one of my Macs). The only reason to clean install is the upgrade process seems to use more disk space than a clean install (old files?).

ENjoy!

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[elrous0]

Well, you're in luck. Mac OS X (as of 10.2) came with an upgrade option called "Archive and Install". Basically, what it does is it takes your old system files, puts them in a special folder called "Previous System", and then loads a clean copy of the new OS. During this install you're given the option of saving all of your old settings.

I'm sure he'll understand the concept, as Windows has had this feature for a long time now.

-Eric

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[Jesus_666]

It has? Every time I have reinstalled Windows/installed it on top of a previously installed one I had a horrible mix of old and new stuff. If the Windows installer has such an option then I've never seen it in 40+ sessions with The World's Funniest Remaining Time Estimate.
OS X's installer makes it pretty hard to miss the option.

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[Fancia]

After migrating all the old settings and so on, is it safe to delete the Previous System folder? I haven't any experience with upgrading OS X so far, so I'm wondering exactly what I should do when I pick up Tiger for my PowerBook.

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[foo fighter]

I was a Windows guy until I bought a used iBook G3 that was running Mac OS X 10.1.

Then 10.2 came out and I was in your exact same position.

I've discovered that upgrading Mac OS X is absolutely nothing like upgrading Windows.

The biggest thing is that their is no "Upgrade version" vs. "Full version". Just drop your money at the counter for the OS and take it home.

The second biggest thing is that upgrades just work. It's still prudent to backup your disk [See Note: below]. But after the upgrade all of your "just-so" preferences are still there, all of your apps still run, and your operating system is running the latest major version with zero problems and 30 minutes of time invested.

I bought a used iBook G3 with 10.1, then 10.2 came out. I had the exact same worries you have, but the upgrade was not only flawless, with my preferences carried along, but it actually made the computer faster.

Just last week I bought a new 12" PowerBook. During the initial setup it asks if you have an old Mac. If you say yes, it walks you through the three steps required to copy your old settings over to the new Mac. When you finally log into your new Mac, you find your environment just like your old one.

Note: The easiest way to back up your Mac is the spend $50 as PC Connection for a Firewire 3.5" hard drive enclosure. Backup to a disk you already have, unhook your backup, then upgrade. If anything goes wrong you just restore your disk.
http://www.pcconnection.com/ProductDetail?sku=5435 505&SourceID=k22350

Re:Upgrade or clean install?

[Angostura]

I tend to run he machine for a few months, then if everything is in order delete, or archive the previous systems.

Message to mods: wake up

[Anonymous Coward]

As a recent "switcher" I've enjoyed OSX and this update improves on pretty much all the items I use day to day. I'll be purchasing it as soon as it arrives.

C'mon moderators... "insightful"?

site slashdotted, torrents?

[Anonymous Coward]

So guys, the apple developer website is still slashdotted from the last posting... I was at 64% through with the download of 8A428 before you guys came.... so can anybody who downloaded tiger 8A428 - before the big slashdotting happened - set up a mirror please? torrent would be cool too.

Mac Mini Update

[IdJit]

I'm intersted to see if Apple upgrades any of the Mini's components (especially RAM) to ease customers into the Tiger upgrade. Also, any word on whether new Minis will come pre-installed with Tiger?

Re:Mac Mini Update

[michaeldot]

I'm intersted to see if Apple upgrades any of the Mini's components (especially RAM) to ease customers into the Tiger upgrade. Also, any word on whether new Minis will come pre-installed with Tiger?

While 512MB standard would be good, I don't care so much about RAM (I always put my own in anyway), but the limitation I see with the Mini is the graphics card: although adequate for normal use, it doesn't "switch on" to the accelerated Core Image effects in Tiger, they have to steal CPU time instead.

I'd like Apple's rev 2 to bump it to at least the minimum spec to support that. Then it'll be, "Mac Mini, meet Me!"

Re:Certified for Cherry OS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice try, Arben.

[Hint: everyone at /. knows CherryOS is a scam. "Open Sourcing" what you've already stolen is hardly cool]

Re:Can't Wait

[jargoone]

The only way you get a free upgrade to the new version is if you buy the computer after the new OS's release date is announced.

I'm not sure that's true. If you purchase now (i.e. after the release date is announced), you qualify for the discounted upgrade price of $9.95. So it's not "free".

Re:lame naming scheme

[Anonymous Coward]

How many times have you asked the typical Windows user what OS they run?

My computer runs Microsoft. And AOL sent me the Internet on a CD.

Re:Certified for Cherry OS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does Cherry even really run anything? I heard that it was all hype...

What?

[Zemplar]

No links to the torrents yet??

Too many articles about Apple's Legal Department on /. doing thieir jobs well I suppose.

Developer Perspective

[ceeam]

Developer opinions wanted - is the new XCode 2 included by default? (for free?). How does it compare with Delphi or VS.Net? I _will_ be getting a mac (mini) sooner or later and this is one thing that interests me. BTW - would a G4 1.x GHz w/ 1Gig of RAM be ok for development machine? Also - is it really practical to write Mac GUI apps (business, personal, that kind of stuff) using some high-level language (like Python or Ruby). On MSWin it is - in my opinion - not there yet, despite presense of a myriad of toolkits (maybe _because_ of that).

Re:Developer Perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

xCode 2 comes for free yes.

No, it's not really worth it to write a program using Python or Ruby, it can be done, but you're going to get better results from ObjC or Java, to be honest.

Re:Developer Perspective

[ceeam]

Personally, I like ObjC. As for Java - there's always talk that it's crappy GUI toolkits that make Java programs feel like VB in tar. Does it _feel_ considerably sleekier on Macs?

Re:Developer Perspective

[As Seen On TV]

is the new XCode 2 included by default? (for free?).

Yes.

How does it compare with Delphi or VS.Net?

You do know that Xcode only runs on the Mac, right? You can't compare these things. They don't run on the same platforms.

would a G4 1.x GHz w/ 1Gig of RAM be ok for development machine?

More than okay. That's about five times the computer you need for application development.

is it really practical to write Mac GUI apps (business, personal, that kind of stuff) using some high-level language (like Python or Ruby).

No. The only language that we support fully is Objective C. You can also try using Java, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Re:Developer Perspective

[rjw57]

XCode is pretty nice as an IDE (for one it allows you to add shell script hooks to your projects) and the editor is OK (although the first person to make a vim plugin will get beer bought for them by me at least). No idea how it compares to VB.net but, AFAIAC, anyy IDE which includes more than an editor and project manager is bloated.

The SCM support (SVN, CVS and Perforce IIRC) is pretty nice too.

Re:Developer Perspective

[revscat]

Also - is it really practical to write Mac GUI apps (business, personal, that kind of stuff) using some high-level language (like Python or Ruby).

Define "high level language." :) The three most popular choices for doing Cocoa development are Objective-C, Java, and Python. Obj-C and Java are the ones "officially" supported by Apple, and have the largest user base, but PyObjC is a bridge between the two languages that (among other things) lets you write Cocoa apps in pure Python.

I'm a heretic these days in that I prefer Java to Python, but the choice is availble to you should your opinion differ.

Re:Developer Perspective

[mihalis]

Q: How does it compare with Delphi or VS.Net?

A: You do know that Xcode only runs on the Mac, right? You can't compare these things. They don't run on the same platforms.

I have to disagree with this point. Development environments can definitely be compared across systems. Not at the fine-grain level perhaps, but on the overall experience.

I'll give an example :- I maintained parts of an application that ran both on Solaris and on Windows for many years. Although all kinds of neat development environments can be assembled from freely available tools, or even bought (e.g. Sun's various IDEs) on Solaris, Visual Studio definitely had an edge. The Windows-only developers had a productivity advantage. Pre-compiled headers, fast intel cpus, very fast tools, including really good source code browsing with cross-referencing etc. It's all built in for a reasonable price, so everyone used them. On Unix some people had pretty good tools, some people used vi and print statements, and it showed.

Re:Developer Perspective

[FuzzzyLogik]

You can use any external editor you want. SubEthaEdit or TextWrangler. You can probably set it up to use vi very easily.

Re:Developer Perspective

[the_2nd_coming]

dude.. I use a G4 1 GHz machine for development now.. and it has far less memory than 1 GIG, AND IT USE TO BE A 400 MHZ G4 CIRCA 2000

Re:Developer Perspective

[bnenning]

No. The only language that we support fully is Objective C.

Although there are Cocoa bridges available for Python and Perl. In fact one of the WWDC sessions is focused on PyObjC:

PyObjC is a bridge between Python and Objective-C. It allows you to write Python scripts that use and extend existing Objective-C class libraries, and most importantly, Cocoa libraries. Specific topics from the 1.2 release covered in this session are: py2app, macho_standalone, NSBundle features, KVO/KVC support, the new scanframework script, objc.inject(), and runtime editing.

Re:Developer Perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

No. Java is Java is Java is slow.

Re:Developer Perspective

[As Seen On TV]

You're never, ever going to choose between Xcode and Visual Studio. Ever. You're never going to sit down and ask yourself, "Gee, should I use Xcode or Visual Studio?" Instead, you're going to have made some other decisions like "Should I write this program for the Mac or for the PC?" and those decisions will dictate whether you use Xcode or Visual Studio.

So comparing the two makes no sense whatsoever.

The only possible motivation for anybody to want to compare them would be to come to the conclusion that one or the other sucks, which is just childish nonsense.

Re:Developer Perspective

[mihalis]

You're never, ever going to choose between Xcode and Visual Studio. Ever. You're never going to sit down and ask yourself, "Gee, should I use Xcode or Visual Studio?" Instead, you're going to have made some other decisions like "Should I write this program for the Mac or for the PC?" and those decisions will dictate whether you use Xcode or Visual Studio.

So comparing the two makes no sense whatsoever.

The only possible motivation for anybody to want to compare them would be to come to the conclusion that one or the other sucks, which is just childish nonsense.

You assume a fair bit here. Actually, I am choosing between XCode, Visual Studio and various other development environments right now. I would like to learn some new languages and techniques, and I'm interested in both XCode, Visual Studio and other very very different "environments" like "Processing" (web site). I have both PCs and Macs, and with MSDN Universal (from work) there's no cost differential between XCode and Visual Studio. I would just like a comfortable dev environment for my own personal programming projects. I got as far as running some XCode wizard (the screensaver one I think) and couldn't quite see how to do stuff in C++. I'm familiar with Visual Studio 6.0 for C++, but not Visual Studio.NET, so there would be a fair bit of relearning even if I chose the Microsoft platform. I had a quick look at Processing last year and that seems like fun, and if I have to learn something, why not something completely different like that.

If I decide to go the Java route there are a bunch more alternatives and once again PC vs. Mac is an issue, but for my own personal projects I use whichever I want as the mood takes me (my most recent project was in C++ using raw Xlib for graphics on SPARC/Solaris).

Re:Developer Perspective

[Elwood P Dowd]

I'm comparing them right now. My home computer is aged and decrepit, and I'm not sure if I should get a G5 or a PC. Part of my decision making incorporates the fact that I'm used to VS.NET, and part of my decision making incorporates the fact that Xcode sounds rad.

If I read a comparison by someone who had used both in real long-term projects, I'd be completely fascinated.

Re:Developer Perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

PyObjC makes it possible to write full featured Cocoa applications using pure Python. Subclassing, KVO, KVC, InterfaceBuilder, notifications, delegates, etc... it all just works.

It is not supported by Apple, but it is being used in several commercial applications.

http://pyobjc.sourceforge.net/

Re:Developer Perspective

[tim1724]

I got as far as running some XCode wizard (the screensaver one I think) and couldn't quite see how to do stuff in C++.

Mac OS X screensavers use the Cocoa API so you need to use Objective C, not C++. No, it's not what you're used to, but it's a nice language which is well-suited to user interface code.

Re:Developer Perspective

[rjw57]

Goodness so you can (*me searches through preferences*), you sir will have a pint bought for you if I ever meet you.

Re:Developer Perspective

[michaeldot]

No. The only language that we support fully is Objective C. You can also try using Java, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Who is this "we" you're speaking from? Are you trying to claim you're someone on the Apple Cupertino campus?!

Clearly you're not... Mac OS X interface programming can be done in C or C++, to the same or higher GUI interaction level as Objective-C. There probably isn't a single line of Objective-C in something like Adobe Photoshop, and that is one hell of a GUI app!

I agree with the recommendation in your post, but to clarify, it's possible to write a fully fledged Mac GUI app using a non-Objective-C language.

There are two main APIs in the Mac OS X: Carbon (traditional C/C++ style function calls) and Cocoa (Objective-C methods).

Interface Builder .nibs (which are effectively the RAD GUI templates) can be used in both Apple's Xcode (which supports C / C++ / Objective-C / Java / AppleScript and other languages) and Metrowerk's CodeWarrior (mainly C/C++).

Perhaps the confusion arises because using the Cocoa framework requires Objective-C (or bridged Java), and Cocoa saves a lot of time once you know it, so it's worth doing it that way. But it's not the only way to program a Mac using Apple's developer tools, and many cross-platform apps will still use C++.

Re:Developer Perspective

[astrosmash]

Personally, I like ObjC. As for Java - there's always talk that it's crappy GUI toolkits that make Java programs feel like VB in tar. Does it _feel_ considerably sleekier on Macs?

In my experience, Java performance on the Mac is impressive. As you may know, Java applications on the Mac use the same native GUI toolkit (Cocoa) as ObjC. As a result, Java apps look and feel exactly like their ObjC counterparts. From the end user's perspective, it's very hard if not impossible to tell whether an application was implemented in Java or ObjC, other than by looking at the memory usage.

I've always liked Java, but, historically, Java GUI development has been a big joke. However, with the possible exception of Eclipse or perhaps J#.NET, OS X is the only platform on which I would consider using Java to implement a GUI application because there is really no negative impact on the end user.

Re:Developer Perspective

[As Seen On TV]

I was outed on this very Web site some weeks ago. I thought everybody knew who I was by now.

Bottom line: It sounds like you've been given some information that's either completely misleading or drastically oversimplified. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it would be great if you'd stop confusing people. I would appreciate that so much.

Re:Developer Perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't stop XCode sucking though

Re:Developer Perspective

[FuzzzyLogik]

glad i could kinda help :-P TextWrangler rocks if you haven't given that a try. Vim is cool though, i kinda wish there was a nice graphical version for OS X

Re:Developer Perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

So Carbon doesn't exist? Or it's no longer supported? Or...?

Or maybe you don't really work for Apple...

Re:Awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet another idiotic moron making claims about things they clearly know nothing about.

This is not a bug fix, this adds over one hundred completely new aspects to the OS.

Ignorant turd...

Re:Can't Wait

[GizmoToy]

Well, it is free but you have to pay for shipping, for which they charge $10 (a little steep, I agree). If you time your order so that your machine arrives after the 29th, Tiger will come inside the box (but not installed - I did this with Panther and my old PowerBook), no shipping required.

you should upgrade

[Anonymous Coward]

You should upgrade.

It has been a strictly Apple phenomena that newer version of OS X run faster on old hardware.

I wish this were true for any X86 OS.

google for it. I have to go and pick my son up at daycare but you will find it.

Re:you should upgrade

[Anonymous Coward]

It has been a strictly Apple phenomena that newer version of OS X run faster on old hardware.

I can take this lots of ways because it's a big vague, however the two at the top of my list after first reading that sentence are:

1. You have read about OS X becoming faster in subsequent releases and thus becoming usable for some older models and beleived this to mean that older models run OS X faster than the newer models.

2. You constructed that sentence in a poor fashion which made it sound like you are saying that older Macintosh models run OS X faster than newer models and continue this remarkable trend more and more as each release becomes available.

I come to these seemingly groundless conclusions because you qualify your sentence with "old hardware". If what you meant, was that their faster code runs faster than the slower code also on older Apple computers, then I don't find that remarkable or confined to Apple.

If you mean to say that the speedups seen on older Macs, are greater than the speedups seen on newer Macs, then I highly doubt that, since progress normally exploits progress. I expect better speed improvements on newer machines, since newer machines tend to have new mechanisms to exploit. But I do not expect static old machines to remain at a performance wall, because code efficiency at fundamental levels is also a part of progress and whether you are running that code (G3) on a G3, G4 or G5, it should be faster regardless. On average of course, I am not talking about single instructions here. I am aware that there are confined cases where a newer CPU does something in particular slower than an older CPU (I know of x86 instructions which take more clock ticks on a 486 than a 386, for example), but these are out of the ordinary and don't sway the averages.

Re:you should upgrade

[SteeldrivingJon]

No, the idea is that, on a given Mac, performance improves over consecutive versions of OS X.

So when you upgrade from 10.1 to 10.2, you find that your computer runs faster under 10.2 than it did under 10.1.

Likewise from 10.2 to 10.3, performance improves.

In all cases, the comparison is not between older Macs and newer Macs. The comparison is between a given Mac's performance under older and newer versions of OS X.

The expected behavior is for each version to be slower, because of added cruft. Instead, Apple's been tuning and optimizing, so each version has, for the most part, offered some performance benefit.

(Personally, I thought 10.3 made my 500MHz iBook run a bit slower.)

Running out of cat names...

[sgant]

Any speculation what they're going to start calling the releases after they run through all the big cat names?

Re:Running out of cat names...

[Zan Lynx]

I'm partial to Feral Tabby.

Re:Running out of cat names...

[Skraut]

Personally, I'm waiting for OS X Rabid Wombat

Re:Running out of cat names...

[Wybaar]

They've got enough names for a long long time if they use domestic cat breed names. Admittedly "OS X Turkish Angora" sounds a little less impressive than "OS X Tiger", but some of the names might be kind of cute, and Apple could win some fans if they were to use a picture of a cat of that breed in the advertising simply from the cuteness factor.

Re:Running out of cat names...

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a rabid wombat you insensitive clod!

Re:Running out of cat names...

[spooky_nerd]

They'll be at OS 11 (Spinal Tap) long before they run out of cat names, especially if they are willing to use the medium cats, e.g lynx, bobcat, ocelot.

Re:Running out of cat names...

[Anonymous Coward]

mac os x warty warthog
mac os x hoary hedgehog
mac os x breezy badger
mac os x perky pengiun

Re:Running out of cat names...

[RackinFrackin]

I'm ready for OS X Liger. It's pretty much my favorite OS.

Re:Running out of cat names...

[adamfranco]

Any speculation what they're going to start calling the releases after they run through all the big cat names?

Used already:
* Jaguar
* Panther
* Tiger

I they have at least a decade's worth of names for Puma concolor They've already used up Panther, but there are still a few more to go:
- Puma
- Cougar
- Catamount
- Mountain Lion

Other big cat names still up for grabs:
- Leopard
- Lion
- Cheetah
- Smilondon

I'm sure that they be able to figure out a new naming scheme by the time they run out...

Re:Running out of cat names...

[cody21XX]

Actually, Cheetah and Puma have already been used for versions 10.0 and 10.1 respectively, they were just never "official". They were the internal names Apple used, not what we got. http://www.thinksecret.com/news/panther.html This lists the cat names for the various versions of OS X.

Re:Running out of cat names...

[Anonymous Coward]

Lucky!

Re:Running out of cat names...

[HaloZero]

Actually, Puma was 10.0, and Cheetah was 10.1. And you forgot Garfield; for when they run out of groundbreaking new features to implement. Also, where's Lynx? That'll be the point-release where the only change is the addition of everyone's favorite text-only browser to the BSD subsystem.

Re:Running out of cat names...

[Bishop923]

10.0 was Puma and 10.1 was Cheetah, IIRC they have already Trademarked Mac OS X 'Lion', 'Cougar', 'Lynx' and 'Leopard'. So we are good up until OS 10.9. Chances are by then cat names will be passé and they will have moved on to the next big thing.

Re:Running out of cat names...

[Anonymous Coward]

My vote would be for Ocelot.

Re:Running out of cat names...

[PateraSilk]

Does it have upgraded numchuck skills?

Re:Running out of cat names...

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, there is no Rabies in Australia, so a "Rabid Wombat" does not exist.

Re:Running out of cat names...

[Shanep]

As far as I am concerned, the Tiger is the top of the line when it comes to cats. People keep refering to the Lion as "the king of the jungle", when in fact Lions mostly laze around in the plains, eat what their women catch and get a little bit of nookie every now and then only when their women want it.

Meanwhile, the Tiger rules the jungle as king, is much larger than pussy lions, has a real "lion heart" so to speak and would kick a lions arse any day.

Lions are over rated. I hope no newer releases of OS X will be called Lion, because Lions suck. I mean come on, they get chased away by hyenas! A tiger would never stand for that kinda shit, the hyenas would be desert.

Okay, now since we have established that the Tiger is indeed the king of the jungle and the master of his domain and as such, is "the top of the line in cats", I feel a newer line of naming is in order. I would like to suggest rodent names and would very much like to see the next version of Apple's OS X be:

Mac OS X Beaver, complete with yet another hairy box. I can already imagine the hairy desktop wallpaper I will use and can offer gigabytes of potential official Apple OS X Beaver wallpaper to Apple if they need it.

Re:Running out of cat names...

[kc0re]

I actually heard that Steve Jobs said that this was the last "Cat" named release. I think the next release should incorporate an x86 release. That will scare MS.

Re:Running out of cat names...

[Yer Mom]

I'm waiting for the Hello Kitty edition...

Re:Awesome!

[Rude Turnip]

Service packs are free (ie 10.3.7 to 10.3.8). We're going up to 10.4 here with whole new features. But I'll probably stick with 10.3 personally.

Re:yeah.. but..

[BJZQ8]

I believe that would be iZealot...just as fruity, though.

Re:Awesome!

[stratjakt]

Version number? 10.4. You'd think Apple could at least update the major version number to make people think they're getting something new.

XP SP2 added a lot of new security related aspects to the OS, a new firewall, a new virus scanner, a new adware scanner, a new malware removal tool, yet it was free.

I'm sick of apple zealots, and the constant Appleturfing of slashdot.

Oh well, have fun writing checks to Jobs.

Me, I'll just type "emerge -u world" and get on with my life.

iChat will support Jabber

[hey]

Nice. Now if only MSN would.

I Hope They Fix Their DVD Player

[Anonymous Coward]

With Mac's DVD player I get "Operation Not Permitted" when I fast forward or next chapter in the beginning of a movie. And then I think just because someone owns the IP of the movie does not give them the right to make me see the previews. Operation not permitted by who, pray tell! So I use good ol' Xine. I've seen this with other DVD players too. What law says that forcing your customer to watch commercials is required I wonder?

Re:I Hope They Fix Their DVD Player

[fracai]

This isn't so much a broken DVD player (Apple's perspective) as it is complying with standards set forth by most physical players. So really they're giving you what you'd expect from a hardware DVD player box that respects the restrictions specified by the disc. Yes there are players out there that ignore these flags and there are rippers that can disable them outright, but do you think Apple is going to try to piss off the MPAA by ignoring them? They might as well create region free drives (something that you can also find a way around online).

Re:I Hope They Fix Their DVD Player

[Anonymous Coward]

Take it up with the MPAA. Apple wouldn't enforce that if they weren't required to by contract.

Re:Awesome!

[Spad]

Frankly, Steve Jobs' shit stinks too, every bit as much as Gates' or Ballmer's.

But it looks so much cooler.

Time to start ordering Mac mini?

[reactivo]

Does anyone know if from now on orders of Mac minis will start shipping Tiger?

Re:Time to start ordering Mac mini?

[porcupine8]

I think this is covered elsewhere on this page, but in case you're too lazy to look around - if you buy a mini between today and the 29th, you can order a free upgrade to Tiger (I think you pay shipping is all). If you order it the 29th, it comes with Tiger pre-installed.

EDU pricing?

[bach37]

I heard that an upgrade is only $70, from a university store if you are a student. Does anyone know the EDU price?

Re:EDU pricing?

[Rainbird98]

I just order through the Apple Store for Education. The pricing is $69.95 (plus tax) and shipping is free.

Re:EDU pricing?

[Anonymous Coward]

$69. Go to store.apple.com, click on the Higher Education link towards the bottom, select your school, and away you go.

Re:EDU pricing?

[Anonymous Coward]

The educationl price has always been $70 for any version of OSX.

With correct math

[Anonymous Coward]

Just to correct the strange math in the parent post:

• 1 Copy - $130
• 2 Copies - $200 (Save $60)
• 3 Copies - $200 (Save $190)
• 4 Copies - $200 (Save $320)
• 5 Copies - $200 (Save $450)

Re:Awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

The OS version is 10.4, not 11.0. It's not a new OS, it's an update to the existing one.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Windows 2000 simply NT 5.0? And isn't XP is NT 5.1?

Come on guys, these version numbers are just for the convenience of developers, etc. anyway -- it's not like God smited Nullsoft when Winamp jumped from 3 to 5.

DVD

[mrpuffypants]

Also interesting to note that Tiger ships on a DVD now. Is this the first mainstream OS to ship on DVD ever?

Re:DVD

[mihalis]

Solaris 9 came on DVD as well as CD, that was a couple of years ago. SuSE also comes on DVD I believe, but I don't know for how long.

Re:DVD

[bcs_metacon.ca]

Panther ships on a DVD with new Powerbooks.

Re:DVD

[Knobby]

The copy of 10.2 that shipped with my Powerbook was on a DVD. Apple's been doing this for at least 2 years now.

Re:DVD

[toddestan]

Yes, but does it come with a version that's not a DVD too? Until fairly recently, Apple was still selling computers with just a CD-ROM drive (eMac, and iBooks for the education market). Will these people be able to buy a CD version, or are they just screwed?

Re:DVD

[MasterofSpork]

Yes, there is a media exchange program. You just fill out a form and send $9 or something and they send you nice shiny CDs of Tiger.

Re:DVD

[tim1724]

Apple's system requirements page says nothing about requiring DVD drives. I'm sure it will be available on CD-ROM.

The developer seeds were delivered on DVD (and as DVD disk images on the web site) which is probably the source of the confusion. While it was pretty safe to assume that developers would have DVD drives, they can't make the same assumption about consumers (yet).

Re:DVD

[eweu]

Apple's Tech Specs page contradicts that.

What's Included with Tiger
In the Box

• Installation DVD
  
• Xcode 2 developer tools
  
• Installation and setup guide
  
• Welcome to Mac OS X Tiger user guide
  

Re:DVD

[tim1724]

In that case they'll probably have some coupon you have to mail in to get the CD-ROM version. This is probably just a way to save money.

This way they only have to press one disc (or possibly two .. one for the OS and one for Xcode, as they tend to be upgraded independently of each other) instead of 4 or 5. Then they only have to incur the extra expense for the minority of users who need the CD-ROM version.

Re:DVD

[shawnce]

The Tiger FAQ found at the Apple online store answers this question, among others.

From a link on the FAQ...

Tiger ships on a DVD, but if your Mac doesn't have a built-in DVD-ROM player, you'll need CD media. When you buy Mac OS X Tiger, you qualify to purchase Tiger CDs for only $9.95. and you fill out this form (PDF).

(personally a little surprise Apple isn't eating the cost for pacakging and shipping the CD version to those that request it, basically what the 9.95 mostly represents)

Re:DVD

[WasterDave]

What you *can* do is put the DVD into one machine (a PowerBook you just happen to have knocking around, say) and boot it in target disk mode. Plug this into the firewire port of the machine you want to install onto and it will boot off the CD in the PowerBook and you'll be able to install like that.

There are bonus marks available for not then installing the OS onto the hard drive in the laptop.

Dave

Re:DVD

[bhamm]

What you *can* do is put the DVD into one machine (a PowerBook you just happen to have knocking around, say) and boot it in target disk mode. Plug this into the firewire port of the machine you want to install onto and it will boot off the CD in the PowerBook and you'll be able to install like that.

Yes.. i've done this several times with 10.3 on older imacs. To clarify though, you connect the older (non DVD) Mac to a running newer (DVD) Mac and boot the OLD one with the "T" key down. Run the DVD install from your newer Mac and when it asks where you want it, select the older Mac hard disk, as it will now show in the list. This works quite well.. beats waiting/paying for a cdrom version..

cheers

do programmers deserve to get paid?

[anomaly]

When we participate in the
"free as in speech" and or
"free as in beer"
communities, our compensation is non-monetary. We have jobs so that we have the luxury of participating in the not-for-profit activities above.

The question you have to answer is "do the people who work for Apple deserve to get paid for their labor?"

That's the reason that people buy the family pack.

Re:do programmers deserve to get paid?

[XxtraLarGe]

Why not pony up $650 and buy 5 individual copies then? By buying the family pack, you are "depriving" Apple employees of $450 that they would have made if you paid for each license individually.

Re:do programmers deserve to get paid?

[pyros]

Why not pony up $650 and buy 5 individual copies then? By buying the family pack, you are "depriving" Apple employees of $450 that they would have made if you paid for each license individually.

Because they know that as humans, people will feel cheated for not getting a volume discount and having to have 5 identical CDs and just pirate instead. Apple is simply increasing the profit margin on a box with 1 CD by putting more licenses in it (probably just costs extra ink) and customers get to know they're doing the legal thing and getting a good deal to boot.

Re:do programmers deserve to get paid?

[rpdillon]

You logic fails you. You're not the one who gets to determine what someone else's product sells for, they are.

If they ask for $200 for 2-5 licenses, then that's what they want. Not $650. It is not deprivation if you're giving them what they ask for. It IS deprivation if you are violating their license and NOT giving them what they ask for.

2. Permitted License Uses and Restrictions. A. This License allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time. This License does not allow the Apple Software to exist on more than one computer at a time,and you may not make the Apple Software available over a network where it could be used by multiple computers at the same time.

Face it: you violated the EULA. Tons of people do it (I've done it!), and it is what it is...some people call it stealing, or copyright infringment, or whatever. It doesn't matter what you call it. The fact is, you should have paid for the other copy. Whether anyone cares, or whether you'll get caught doesn't matter. Just face the truth and move on. And, if you decide you did the wrong thing, pay for the other copy.

Re:do programmers deserve to get paid?

[shotfeel]

Don't forget to subtract out the savings in shipping/handling, packaging as well as many other "little" things like support.

No it probably doesn't add up to $450, but it adds to the win column in customer satisfaction.

Re:Core Image/Core Audio

[As Seen On TV]

Good God, are you ever not a graphics developer.

I'm gonna make this fast because I'm sick of writing the same comment in every Tiger article. Core Image is Apple's implementation of hardware-accelerated 2D image processing. It's comparable to SGI's ImageVision Library, which you should look up right now.

Core Audio is a hyperlow-latency audio-processing framework.

Neither of these things is in any way related to Direct X, Open GL, or any form of 3D programming.

Re:Awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

The OS version is 10.4, not 11.0. It's not a new OS, it's an update to the existing one. If you were to find out that Windows XP SP3 is going to cost 100 bucks, slashbots would pitch a fit.
That's because WinXP SP3 would be more bugfixes and no new features, like always. It is a different OS; most of the frameworks are new, everything is 64-bit native, the GUI is totally overhauled, Core Video and Core Image are incorporated...how could it be more different?

I'd think when you plunk down the kind of cash required for a G5, or hell, even for the gutless MiniMac, you should be entitled to free updates for the OS it ships with.
Think again. That's a completely brain-dead business model.

But why is it OK that you can't replace the battery in a $350 iPod, or it's perfectly fine that it can't properly reproduce low tones? Why is it OK for them to charge for an update to the OS? Why is it OK for them to sue people for talking about their products? Why is it OK for Apple to use DRM, and to slowly keep tightening it up?
You sir, are full of shit. iPod batteries are replaceable, Apple's DRM is only present on a file-by-file level in iTunes and on the iPod, and can be defeated incredibly easy, the iPod does fine with bass, it's okay to charge for the OS because it's their intellectual property and they can do what they want with it, and it's okay for them to sue people--although they went a bit far--because it is within their rights to protect their intellectual property through legal action.

Why the special treatment for Apple?
Because they only fuck up sometimes, not every time they do something.

Why is Apple forgiven the shitty things they do?
Because they care, and are interested in providing a good product, not just whatever they can foist on people for $249 a license.

Frankly, Steve Jobs' shit stinks too, every bit as much as Gates' or Ballmer's.
Yeah, he's an asshole. But he's not the whole company.

Re:Awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

Me, I'll just type "emerge -u world" and get on with my life.

LOL. Given that your "life" appears to consist of getting your panties all tied up in a knot whenever an Apple story is posted to Slashdot, I'm not so sure you should be bragging about "getting on" with it.

Re:yeah.. but..

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot:

"It just works!"

Well, I guess if you define "just" as in "barely", that's a true statement.

Do I get a discount?

[Anonymous Coward]

My free mac mini shipped yesterday and will arrive Thursday. Do I get a discount on Tiger?

(actually i might just sell it on eBay then re-buy it + some uprades directly from apple.com)

Python GUI apps on the Mac

[stokes]

wxPython has long run under OS X. It's a little flaky -- occasional redraw problems with some widgets, and a couple of widgets just don't work. It's frustrating, but I'm still optimistic about future releases.

There's also a library for driving scriptable applications (of which there are a lot, paricularly all of the Apple applications) from Python. I've only looked at it a little, just because I can't get my brain around the almost-English-but-not-quite style of AppleScript.

Re:Python GUI apps on the Mac

[the_2nd_coming]

APPLESCRIPT IS A NIGHMARE!!! I wish they would dump it for a usable OSS language like perl or python.

Re:Python GUI apps on the Mac

[poot_rootbeer]

APPLESCRIPT IS A NIGHMARE!!! I wish they would dump it for a usable OSS language like perl or python.

If only there were a way to run Perl or Python on OS X...

Re:Python GUI apps on the Mac

[tuxedokamen]

Perl and Python have been included with OS X since 10.2. I'm not sure if they're installed by default, though. I think they're considered part of the BSD subsystem.

Re:Python GUI apps on the Mac

[Moofie]

You need to relax. You can use whatever scripting language you want on OS X. "Dump it"? Yeah, because all the people who like it just fine are less important than you, right?

Re:Python GUI apps on the Mac

[shawnce]

Consider looking up the definition of sarcasim :-)

Re:Python GUI apps on the Mac

[Lurker]

Consider looking up the definition of sarcasim :-)

There doesn't seem to be a definition for sarcasim in my dictionary. Could you provide one please?

Re:Python GUI apps on the Mac

[Anonymous Coward]

Consider looking up the definition of sarcasim :-)

OK.

Let's see... I'll check dictionary.reference.com.
Look up "sarcasim."

Huh. I get this:

No entry found for sarcasim.

But it did offer some help. Are any of these correct?

Did you mean sarcasm?
Suggestions:
sarcasm
sarcosome
sargas sum
Sarcosin
Sarcosis
sarcosis
Sparsim
sarcas m's
sarcosine
Sabaism
Syriasm
sargasso

Re:Python GUI apps on the Mac

[druske]

You can use Python instead of AppleScript via Appscript. I'm just learning Python at the moment and haven't tried this, but it looks interesting. You can also use PyObjC to combine the best of Python and Objective-C/Cocoa into a single app. And the excellent editors by Bare Bones Software, BBEdit and TextWrangler have great support for Python.

OS X 10.3 has Python 2.3 pre-installed. I'm not sure which version will be supplied with Tiger.

Overall Python support looks very strong on OS X, and with the number of FOSS developers giving the platform a try I think this will only get better.

Re:Python GUI apps on the Mac

[michaeldot]

There doesn't seem to be a definition for sarcasim in my dictionary. Could you provide one please?

It's the next release in The Sims series. Quoting from the press release, "After getting wild in SimParty, wind down with SarcaSim - a complete simulation of online forum conversations. Chuckle as your sims take offense at the meaning of each other's post, hoot with laughter as they bring their OS prejudices out into the open, and goggle at the amazing effects of speech bubbles containing jokes whoosh over dimmer sims' heads."

In stores April 29, or you can use the open source version simply by visiting Slashdot.org.

Re:Python GUI apps on the Mac

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want mmmm mmmm pure Cocoa apps, you can use pyobjc (http://pyobjc.sourceforge.net/). It lets you write no-compromise Cocoa apps in pure Python.

Re:They should have called it saber-toothed tiger

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, way to gain credibility by insulting an entire industry, a huge one at that. Especially since you know everyone who works in the media industry to make that claim.

Re:Can't Wait

[Kosmatos]

Well, you're right, I didn't think it was "that big a deal" to postpone purchasing my first Mac until some unknown future date when Tiger is released.

Now that I just got my Mac Mini (a couple weeks ago) they announce the date and want $129.

Where I work, we give customers a 60 day upgrade protection policy. I'm one of the people who put this policy in place. Makes for a lot less customer frustration...

FINK with Tiger?

[bach37]

Any fink developers out there? Will fink be down for the count for awhile, until new binary packages are made for Tiger?

Re:FINK with Tiger?

[vocaro]

There shouldn't be any problem running 10.3 binaries on Tiger, and if not, Fink always gives you the option to build your own Tiger-specific binaries from source.

Ah, but there's no benefit going to 64-bit...

[rufo]

One of the interesting things about the move to 64-bit is that unlike going from IA32 to AMD64 on Windows, on Mac OS X there is no speed boost from targetting the G5. All the speed boosts you're ever going to get from compiling for a G5 are there and enabled in Panther; all you get from moving your app to 64-bit is 64-bit addressing, and as such, a slight drop in speed. This will hopefully be offset by the fact that your app actually needs more then 4GB of memory space. This sort of makes 64-bit apps less neccessary/desirable then it does in the PC world.

Re:They should have called it saber-toothed tiger

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never met a media person that didn't work in tech media that wasn't a luddite. Especially the ones that use macs. I'm suprised they can even work the mouse when it only has 1 button.

Nikon .nef support!

[SethJohnson]

Woohoo!! Tiger will have native support for RAW digital image formats:

RAW Camera Image Support
Open images in the RAW file format used by Canon, Nikon and other models using the Apple Preview application.

Speaking as someone who is tired of using the Nikon software to look at my .nef images, this is terrific news. This is another feature that's definitely not available on the Microsoft platform.

Re:Nikon .nef support!

[wandazulu]

I agree...that will be the first thing uninstalled from my machine...Nikon View still opens when a card is put in the reader even though I explicitly told it not to autolaunch, and then has the gall to say that iPhoto is currently running, and I should quit that.

Even for nefs that iPhoto can't handle (D1x, etc.) I'd still use Photo Mechanic over Nikon View any day.

Get the Mini

[ToasterTester]

I picked up one of the Mini's and they are a blast to work on. The great Mac interface, lots of quality software, and Unix under the hood. Been getting up to speed on Apple development and nice free tools. Plus it is a great central box. You can get a MS Remote Desktop Client, then it has ssh for get to my Unix boxes. So one nice place to work from.

Re:Get the Mini

[Zhe Mappel]

I was disappointed by the poor performance of MS Word and Pages when I tested a Mini in our Apple store. Neither app could keep up with my typing--this on a G4! Even my aging G3 iBook, no speed machine, doesn't hiccup while rendering simple text.

Mind, I've maxed out RAM on my iBook. Apparently the standard Mini is wanting at 256mb.

Re:They should have called it saber-toothed tiger

[Anonymous Coward]

At the Mac's greatest height it's market share was 12%. It's now at 2.3%. It's D Y I N G. :D 3

Re:Awesome!

[UnknowingFool]

Version number? 10.4. You'd think Apple could at least update the major version number to make people think they're getting something new.

Ok, Apple has their version naming preferences. I think it has to with with keeping OS X as part of the name. What about MS?:
95 -> 98 -> 98SE -> ME -> XP Home
NT 3.5 -> NT 4.0 -> 2000 -> XP Pro -> 2003

XP SP2 added a lot of new security related aspects to the OS, a new firewall, a new virus scanner, a new adware scanner, a new malware removal tool, yet it was free.

XP SP2 added all those features because they had to fix the security aspects of XP that their customers complained about. The firewall was updated, and new tools were added. But those additional tools were already being provided by third parties.

Again, this is not a patch or service pack. Apple has plenty of those for free. 10.3.x.x is a service pack/patch for Panther as SPx is a service pack for Windows. This is more like a full new version with new features. In Windows terms it would be like 2000 -> XP Pro. In Linux it would be 2.4 -> 2.6

Re:Awesome!

[Reignking]

We lose something when we replace version numbers with marketing terms. Most of us can remember 386 and 486 (and MHzs) but then Pentium came along, because they couldn't trademark 586. Now, the chipmakers use their own brand names, further confusing the consumer.

Private browsing

[jargoone]

Just caught this on the page for new Safari features:

Surf Securely

Safari protects your personal information on shared or public Macs when surfing the Web. Go ahead and check your bank account and .Mac email at the library or shop for birthday presents on the family Mac. Using Safari's new Private Browsing feature, no information about where you visit on the Web, personal information you enter or pages you visit are saved or cached. It's as if you were never there.

I can think of a few uses for that... ;)

Re:Private browsing

[harlows_monkeys]

Apple says: "Go ahead and check your bank account and .Mac email at the library or shop for birthday presents on the family Mac. Using Safari's new Private Browsing feature, no information about where you visit on the Web, personal information you enter or pages you visit are saved or cached".

So...when I go to a library Mac and launch Safari and browse my bank account...how do I know it really is Safari?

Re:Private browsing

[Anonymous Coward]

Since you missed the real purpose of this feature, you are either blessed with a porn friendly girlfriend or your mom has no idea how to use a computer.

Re:lame naming scheme

[circusboy]

I think that (r/w ftp) might finally happen when they figure out how to get the OS to stop writing .DS_Store files on every system it visits via every other GUI based networking option.

does anyone know if there is a way to inhibit this tendency? there are people here who find them annoying... I have a little shell script that periodically hunts them down on the server, but their presence is a pain.

Re:They should have called it saber-toothed tiger

[okto]

Here's a little homework assignment: Tell me what the market shares of Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Bugatti are. Hell, keep it in computerland: How many percent of the CPU's in the world are Teradatas? You don't get it. More is not better. Better is better.

NPAPI

[bmarklein]

The feature I've been waiting for is NPAPI suppport in Safari, which should allow Javascript to interact with plugins. Specifically I need to communicate with Flash. This made me think that this would be coming with Tiger:

http://lists.apple.com/archives/webcore-dev/2004/S ep/msg00009.html

But the list of Safari enhancements doesn't mention it:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/safari/

Maybe it's just not a sexy enough end-user feature? Anyone know for sure if it's in there?

Re:NPAPI

[circusboy]

err... I use this feature in panther/safari 1.2, live-connect or what ever its called now was a feature of the upgrade from 1.0/1.1

there's even a bridge for mozilla et al. somewhere, (I've forgotten where source forge I think)

Re:NPAPI

[bmarklein]

Flash to Javascript works, Javascript to Flash doesn't. NPAPI (should) fix that. See the first link in my original post - it's a mailing list post from the Safari Engineering Manager.

Dashboard

[asv108]

said Steve Jobs, Apple's CEO. "Tiger's groundbreaking new features like Spotlight and Dashboard will change the way people use their computers, and drive our competitors nuts trying to copy them."

Dashboard? Innovative? Its just a copy of the many other widget platforms that have been available for quite a few years now. Calling dashboard innovative is like calling Internet Explorer 1 groundbreaking. If anything it continues Apple's tradition of taking the ideas of successful mac shareware apps and including a copy of the app free in the os ala MS.

Spotlight is pretty cool and Apple is the first os to ship such a product (its ususally the first to ship a lot of cool features), but the idea has been floating around forever. Beagle was even announced a day before spotlight, and MS has been talking about something similar for longhorn for half a decade now.

Re:Dashboard

[pauljlucas]

Dashboard? Innovative? Its just a copy of the many other widget platforms that have been available for quite a few years now.

I doubt it. Have you seen the demos? Nothing else is as polished. And the fact that they can be entirely programmed in JavaScript will mean that lots of people will be able to code them. Dashboard will be the new HyperCard.

Re:Dashboard

[Dachannien]

"We've built these features into the operating system," said Brian Croll, Apple's senior director software product marketing. "You can't do what we've done with add-on software."

This was another quote in reference to Dashboard and Spotlight. Why exactly can't you do with add-on software what they've done in the OS? Maybe I'm wrong, but at first blush it sounds like a trick out of the Microsoft bag.

Re:Dashboard

[rampant mac]

"Dashboard? Innovative? Its just a copy of the many other widget platforms that have been available for quite a few years now. Calling dashboard innovative is like calling Internet Explorer 1 groundbreaking. If anything it continues Apple's tradition of taking the ideas of successful mac shareware apps and including a copy of the app free in the os ala MS."

I tend to agree that it's not innovative, nor revolutionary. It is evolutionary, because it's a 21st century update of Desktop Accessories, which precluded Konfabulator by about 20 years.

Re:Dashboard

[argent]

Dashboard will be the new HyperCard.

I just wrote the same thing, but I'm afraid that this will be a bad thing. With more and more dashboard applets being written, the fact that they're stuck in the stupid Dashboard ghetto-pane will drive me totally Librarian.

God, I hope someone comes up with a haxie to let me drag Dashboard widgets to the desktop or stick them to the menu bar or the dock...

Re:Dashboard

[tim1724]

No haxie needed. The developer documentation for Dashboard includes a secret defaults key which enables exactly this behavior. It's still under NDA, so I can't tell you what it is, but look for it to appear on macosxhints.com as soon as Tiger is released. :-)

Re:Dashboard

[Graymalkin]

But Apple is delivering Spotlight in two weeks to regular Joes. Spotlight's back end has also been around since MacOS 8.5 when Sherlock was introduced. Content indexing has existed in various forms since then and I happen to use it all of the time. Spotlight basically takes content and metadata indexing and puts a swank front end on it.

Dashboard as was mentioned by someone else is a reimplementation of Desktop Accessories. Arlo Rose is a bright guy and Konfabulator is a nice program but it was hardly all that original. There's a significant difference between the two in terms of resource usage and implementation. Dashboard widgets are only invoked when Dashboard is brought to the fore. Konfabulator widgets run constantly because Konfabulator runs constantly.

I don't quite see how including missing functionality in an upgrade is a bad thing. Jaguar and previous versions of OSX did not have an easy way to compress files. Panther added the ability to compress files and folders as Zip files that can be opened on Windows or other Macs. Was Apple trying to kill off Aladdin née Allume's sales of StuffIt? Was Apple ripping off StuffIt by adding a function theretofore missing from the OS? Panther also re-added support for labels in Finder. Uh oh, they must have been ripping off Unsanity's LabelsX. One of the biggest gripes Mac users had about early versions of OSX was the lack of features they had come to enjoy that were in previous versions of the OS, Desktop Accessories and labels being two of these things. Adding these things back into their OS is hardly dumping on third party developers.

Re:Dashboard

[Anonymous Coward]

seriously, does no one else but me remember SASH? (which spawned SASH-XB)

http://sash.alphaworks.ibm.com/
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,37969, 00.html
http://www.sashxb.org/

people playing pity violins for konfabulator can go fuck themselves.

-z

Re:Dashboard

[stripes]

Spotlight's back end has also been around since MacOS 8.5 when Sherlock was introduced. Content indexing has existed in various forms since then and I happen to use it all of the time. Spotlight basically takes content and metadata indexing and puts a swank front end on it.

Plus the data is indexed as it is written rather then once a day/week/whatever. So you can do a spotlight search and find a file you made this morning, or have a smart folder and things pop into it as soon as you change them rather then the next day. It makes a significant usability difference -- the search goes from something that can sometimes locate your stuff to the thing that always finds it. Plus it is actually fast.

Released on DVD media?

[sakusha]

There is some speculation that Tiger will be released on DVD media, has anyone seen any confirmation? This would be a huge pain in the ass for machines that would run Tiger fine but don't have a DVD drive to load it from (like my old B&W G3).

Re:Released on DVD media?

[sjf]

I think you can guarantee that it will be on DVD Media. I believe that a DVD drive is now a prerequisite.

Re:Released on DVD media?

[sakusha]

You're speculating. Does anyone have the facts?

Re:Released on DVD media?

[fracai]

What's Included with Tiger
In the Box

* Installation DVD

http://www.apple.com/macosx/techspecs/

Re:Released on DVD media?

[sakusha]

Thanks for the hard facts, I looked all over the Tiger site but missed that spec in all the fine print.

This is going to be a huge pain for the B&W G3 owners like me, very few of those machines shipped with DVD drives since the G3s weren't fast enough to display DVD video without a daughtercard to do the video processing.
So this leaves the question of what to do for the install. I suppose I could put the DVD in my G4 MDD machine and boot it in Target Disk Mode, see if I can boot the G3 from the remote DVD which would be seen as an attached FireWire disk. Or maybe it's time to upgrade my ancient 2x DVD drive in my dual 1Ghz MDD machine and transplant the old drive into the G3. Or maybe I should just leave the G3 on Panther, since it's being used as a server and might not benefit much from all the GUI gizmos in Tiger.

Re: Released on DVD media?

[Ineffable 27]

As others have pointed out, you can exchange your install DVD for CDs via snail-mail, for US$10. A DVD drive was one of the listed requirements for the Developer Previews of Tiger, but there's no mention of that requirement on the Apple site now. The fact that CD-ROM install disks are available indicates that a DVD drive is not required.

Re:Released on DVD media?

[MKalus]

I am curious, how did you get Panther installed on it?

I got Panther a while ago and tried to install it on my B&W G3 and even though it booted I was unable to convince the machine to finish the actual installation.

Re:Released on DVD media?

[sakusha]

I had no problems installing Panther on my B&W G3, I even tested MacOS X Server and it installed fine. But then, I have one of the fancier models, the B&W G3/400 U2W with SCSI drives. The only big deal with installing Panther on a B&W is that you have to install it on the 1st partition and that partition must be less than 8Gb (I think this might only apply to IDE drives). My boot drive is only 6Gb so that's not a problem. Apparently Panther won't boot from partitions that don't meet this requirement, so when OS X reboots and asks for the second install CD, it could fail at that point because it's not booting into OSX to complete the install.
Anyway, this is all documented in the Panther README file, you did RTFM when you encountered the difficulty, right?

Re:Released on DVD media?

[MKalus]

Actually I didn't as I only tried it briefly as I was busy with other things :)

I just wanted to know if there were any issues you encountered. Boot drive is 6GB so it should be fine.

Guess I'll try again on the weekend.

Thanks.

M.

Re:Released on DVD media?

[stripes]

o this leaves the question of what to do for the install. I suppose I could put the DVD in my G4 MDD machine and boot it in Target Disk Mode, see if I can boot the G3 from the remote DVD which would be seen as an attached FireWire disk.

That's how I got my G3 PowerBook installed (it has a DVD drive, but the drive has gone south).

Or maybe I should just leave the G3 on Panther, since it's being used as a server and might not benefit much from all the GUI gizmos in Tiger.

What and miss out on the spotlight CLI tools, ACL support, and command line resource fork (er, extended attribute) support?

well, it's official

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

I've been waiting for Tiger so I can go ahead and order my new Mac (and not have to pay the "upgrade" tax). Looks like the wait is over. Whee!

Re:Can't Wait

[Kosmatos]

I suppose you are right. Next time I buy an Apple product, I will have to examine their web site carefully so I know every little detail...

have'nt

[Anonymous Coward]

I seen this before?
that calculator looks exactly like the one in gnome-applets, that search thing looks like beagle,
and the macro-making thing is like a more polished version of windows recorder.
(not sound recorder, remember from 3.1?)
nothing new here.

H.323 in ichat

[Danathar]

There was no mention of H.323 capabilities in ichat which is a shame. I know...ophoneX works with the firewire camera but it's flaky and slow.

Apple should understand that not everybody WANTS an AOL or .Mac account just to do videoconferencing.

Re:H.323 in ichat

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple should understand that not everybody WANTS an AOL or .Mac account just to do videoconferencing.

Yeah, I mean if I have two machines on a subnet, I should not have to go through a separate server just to videoconference. The two computers should just "see" each other and do some sort of peer-to-peer networking auto-discovery so I could chat that way.

Oh...

Wait...

iChat already does that?

Then Apple should set up a free service in case I am not on the same subnet. Or at least farm that out to another company. But definitely keep it free.

Oh...

Wait...

iChat already does that?

AOL IM accounts are free, and anyone can get one. I am not sure what your complaint is. To do video conferencing over the Internet, you are going to need a central server (for now) with accounts. Apple says you can use either a .Mac account or a free AOL IM account. What else would you have them do?

Re:H.323 in ichat

[Danathar]

Signing up for .mac requires you to put in a credit card...and doing ichat via Rendevous does not work for me because there are no users on my network. Does using AOL require the conference to pass through some server somewhere...causing low performance? Or does it just authenticate and then do a point to point?

The WORLD uses H.323 (polycom...picturetel...netmeeting)

Re:H.323 in ichat

[fracai]

using an AIM account from AOL connects you to the AIM server for text chat and then uses a direct connection for video or audio.

Re:H.323 in ichat

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to think that Mac zealots could be made to speak in reasonable measured tones.

Oh...

Wait... ...they can't.

Re:H.323 in ichat

[Wesley Felter]

To do video conferencing over the Internet, you are going to need a central server (for now) with accounts.

No, you don't. Many pro videoconferencing systems use IP addresses to connect directly.

Apple says you can use either a .Mac account or a free AOL IM account. What else would you have them do?

Allow me to use my own server, instead of relying on Apple or AOL?

Re:H.323 in ichat

[Anonymous Coward]

Allow me to use my own server, instead of relying on Apple or AOL?

Well, then you could always buy a copy of Mac OS X Tiger Server. From http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/ :

iChat Server

To ensure secure instant messaging in your organization, Tiger Server enables you to host a private iChat Server that integrates with your existing directory services for user accounts and authentication. iChat Server uses the XMPP protocol popularized by the open-source Jabber project and SSL/TLS encryption to protect internal communications. And because it's based on open standards, iChat Server works with Tiger's iChat AV and with popular Jabber clients on Windows, Linux and PDAs.

Re:H.323 in ichat

[tim1724]

Allow me to use my own server, instead of relying on Apple or AOL?

The version of iChat in Tiger supports Jabber servers. (They're bundling a Jabber server in Tiger Server, in fact.)

You only have to use AOL or .Mac screennames if you want to talk to the AIM server.

On your local subnet you don't need any central server .. iChat can use Bonjour (formerly known as Rendezvous) to do peer discovery.

Re:They should have called it saber-toothed tiger

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah but a ferrari doesn't run like shit. Macs are slower than similar priced PC's, and don't have as many apps or games. Mac isn't even close to being 'better' than windows on many different levels. The market has spoken, and the market doesn't want macs. I'm sure mac will struggle on with their pathetic customer base, and continue to charge you 129 dollars every 6 months for what is really a service pack. Enjoy.

New Powermac ?

[eheldreth]

I just bought a new Power Mac, that arrived on the 7th. How long does apple offer free upgrades for.

Re:yeah.. but..

[godlikenerddotcom]

You forgot: "It just works!" Well, I guess if you define "just" as in "barely", that's a true statement. I'd come up with a clever retort, but I'm too busy cleaning spyware and viruses off my Windows PC.

JPEG2000

[jeti]

Apparently Apple is right at the frontier again and has added JPEG2000 support.

Kudos for that. No one has dared before. Let the patent lawsuits fly.

Re:JPEG2000

[Knobby]

Preview.app has been able to export JPEG2000 images for at least a year now.

Support for Tamil!

[srikan2]

Not many people will get excited by this, but it absolutely makes my day - Tiger will include Tamil Language scripts!!

The phrase "Tiger supports Tamil" sounds vaguely familiar...I wonder why...

Re:Support for Tamil!

[Anonymous Coward]

"tiger supports tamil"- Good one:)

Re:Awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a troll and you are a troll's 'special friend'.

Will I get a discount?

[MrP-(at work)]

My free mac mini shipped yesterday and will arrive Thursday. Do I get a discount on Tiger?

(actually i might just sell it on eBay then re-buy it + some uprades directly from apple.com)

(3rd time posting this, first as AC on accident, then logged in but in the wrong thread.. maybe this one will finally work)

Re:Will I get a discount?

[rokzy]

if you are in UK don't bother having to mess around on ebay, just refuse to accept the delivery and have it sent back for automatic refund. even if you accept you can send it back within 7 days.

Copyright Violation?

[C A S S I E L]

Surely:

• Exhibit A
• Exhibit B

Re:Copyright Violation?

[saddino]

Copyright, no (unless it was a derivative, e.g. Photoshop copy of the X-Men "X", which it doesn't appear to be).

It could be a Trademark issue, but the markets don't overlap, and so there woudn't be a likelyhood of confusion. Notwithstanding the fact that it would be hard to protect a generic "X" (unlike say, Exxon's fanciful and very protectable double-x).

desk accessories

[Anonymous Coward]

quite a few years indeed.. since the days of desk accessories in '84, on the original mac OS. they aren't copying, they're re-implementing.

Re:desk accessories

[asv108]

Sorry, Dashboard is hardly a reimplementation of desk accessories. Desk accessories was just a grouping of apps.

Re:lame naming scheme

[Anonymous Coward]

Pfff. That's easy: Windows 97.

Offtopic - Parent .sig comment.

[DarthStrydre]

I was pondering the broken pseudocode in your .sig, which prompted me to dream up this as a possibly licensing shackled replacement:

do() || do_not();
isNot(there,try);

:-P

Re:Offtopic - Parent .sig comment.

[shotfeel]

But didn't Microsoft patent isNot?

Or is that copyright SCO?

Re:Offtopic - Parent .sig comment.

[DarthStrydre]

Hence the comment: "possibly licensing shackled replacement".

Further info

[beavis88]

I checked Apple's supported hardware, and slot-loading iMacs are listed as supported. However, the "built-in Firewire" requirement is still listed, so I am going to assume the worst.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.h tml/

SuSE

[Aldric]

Since at least 9.1, which was released about a year ago. Plus a DVD of sources and five install CDs for those that don't have a DVD drive.

Wish it did one more minor thing...

[MattHaffner]

I just wish it did one more minor thing: remove previous OS X apps that are no longer shipped with the new OS. IIRC, it doesn't remove this "cruft" for you to decide if you still need it. Otherwise, it is really a nice install method!

Re:They should have called it saber-toothed tiger

[Anonymous Coward]

Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Bugatti are niche cars. They are also very expensive, that's how they survive. Same thing with Macs.

Just in Time for Tax Refunds!

[Anonymous Coward]

When beauty, marketing, and convenience joints.

Where's the best place

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

to buy Tiger in volume? Got 30 sales guys/execs to upgrade and myself first of course for testing purposes ;)

Re:Where's the best place

[phillymjs]

The Apple Store for Business

Scroll down to the bottom of the page. The link to volume licensing stuff is at the very bottom of the left sidebar.

Media is $15, and for the amount you need, licenses cost $119 each.

~Philly

Re:They should have called it saber-toothed tiger

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but like I mentioned in the previous post, they don't suck. Mac sucks.

Info about Widgets

[sammykrupa]

Here is a site devoted to OS X Widgets:

http://www.dashboardlineup.com/

Well, kind of...

[EvilStein]

Many of the beige G3s shipped with Firewire. They're no longer supported. You probably mean to say "shipped with built-in Firewire"

Can Mail.app finally subscribe to IMAP folders?

[larse]

Anyone know if Mail.app finally gained support for subscribing to selected email folders? This is the single feature I cannot live without (hundreds of public IMAP folders on the company mail server).

Re:Core Image/Core Audio

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, CoreImage is very much related to OpenGL. Wherever possible, CoreImage does its work on the GPU, and uses GL to do so.

What I really want to know.

[CarlinWithers]

Will there be an update to the Mac Minis as a result of the new OS being released? When can we expect that?

Does Tiger use any activation?

[Phoenixhunter]

Just wondering if they're jumping on the Microsoft train to avoid piracy...

Re:Does Tiger use any activation?

[Anonymous Coward]

dunno about tiger, but previous updates do not include any sort of activation. Just like the good ole days.

Re:Does Tiger use any activation?

[phillymjs]

I doubt it.

Surely they would have tested any activation scheme in the beta period, and even if it required a serial number or just had something in place to implement one when beta was over, some tester would have noticed and some rumor site would have publicized it.

Bottom line is, you can't run OS X unless you've bought a Mac, so Apple has made at least some money from you even if you illegally copy the OS. Right now I think Apple is more concerned with getting Macs on people's desks, and they'll worry about OS piracy at a much later time.

One thing I have noticed with newer machines, however, is that the OS X install discs seem to no longer be universal... the installer checks the hardware and refuses to install if the machine is not the type of computer that the disc was bundled with. I'm sure it's not hard for someone knowledgable to get around that limitation, but it will probably stop the casual user from buying a Mac mini with Tiger preloaded and using the bundled install discs to put Tiger on any other Macs he owns.

~Philly

Uh, Apple licenses all of its technology

[Anonymous Coward]

When you pay for apple, you pay for all of the patent and software licensing that come with the OS.

example: Fraunhofer-licensed MP3 encoder in Quicktime and iTunes. It really does make a difference.

Re:Awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you follow that logic then XP itself was a service pack to 2000 because it is just NT 5.0 upgraded to 5.1. Don't get lost in version numbers.

They were cool

[grahamsz]

I called their customer service and since i missed the cutoff by 1 h 45 min (since it's of course PST) they said they'll let it slide. I got a second email confirmation from them this morning with todays date on it :)

Apple you rock :)

Re:They were cool

[GizmoToy]

Glad to hear they did something for you. I'd be pretty upset if I missed it by 2 hours. From some of the other posts around here today, it looks like they're being pretty generous with those who ordered prior to the announcement. Good for them.

Re:They were cool

[grahamsz]

Well i told the guy on the phone that i'd cancel my order if they didn't work it out.

Of course i'd have immediately reordered, but still :)

Re:They were cool

[GizmoToy]

Yea, that is what I was going to recommend if you couldn't talk them out of it and it hadn't shipped yet. I mean, really, there's no reason not to. In fact, I've heard that a number of reps have actually told people to cancel orders and reorder things to get special deals and such.

Finally!

[Anonymous Coward]

Slideshow in Preview!!!

Re:Finally!

[HiThere]

But will it do animated gifs?

British customers getting ripped off again

[Andy_R]

US upgrade price 130 USD
British upgrade price 89 UKP = 167.775 USD at today's rates

US upgrade for recent orders 9.95 USD
British upgrade for recent orders 13.99 UKP = 26.3726 USD (Yes, that's OVER TWO AND A HALF TIMES the price, for exactly the same thing!)

Do Apple really think we don't notice this sort of rip-off over here?

Re:British customers getting ripped off again

[Anonymous Coward]

British upgrade price 89 UKP = 167.775 USD at today's rates

... less 17.5% VAT = US$ 142.13.

Are tax levels an issue in the election?

Re:British customers getting ripped off again

[Moofie]

Yeah, because Apple should pay your VAT, right?

Re:British customers getting ripped off again

[Cliff.Braun]

They had to add British language support, Duh. Surely that accounts for the price difference.

I do

[SuperKendall]

I bought a family pack because I support my own macs, along with my parents - although they live in a seperate household, which I think is a bit against the TOS for the family pack, I still like giving Apple a bit more for supporting three computers, while saving a bit over buying two copies.

Re:I do

[gl4ss]

* I bought a family pack because I support my own macs, along with my parents - although they live in a seperate household, which I think is a bit against the TOS for the family pack, I still like giving Apple a bit more for supporting three computers, while saving a bit over buying two copies.
*

just to clarify, it is against the license. you got a householdwide license at your home for 5 computers - no computers outside your household are covered, for example your kid living at college campus wouldn't be covered. they don't make this too clear when ordering though. also, you can't use it for "business" use wherever that thin line goes.

and if you just like giving apple money why don't you just send it over? save them the hassle of releasing an update.

Tiger

[spacemky]

Will it run on my PC?

DVDs? Do I need a DVD drive?

[ColMustard]

The Apple Store says that Mac OS X and Xcode 2 comes on DVDs... Do I need a DVD drive?

Different for the user how exactly?

[SuperKendall]

Now how is Longhorn going to really be that different for the avergae user.

Lets say they buy Longhorn day 1. What are they getting out of the box they do not already have, really? WinFS is gone. Some of the other stuff like IE changes are being backported. So what is a USER going to get with Longhorn they do not have already that is so different? As a user, moving from Win2K to XP just meant a lot of annoying "features" to disable to get it back to behaving more like Win2K and a few pretty buttons. Ironic that some people decry Macs as style over substance.

I agree there are some frameworks that interesting things can happen with (like XAML). But a user moving to Tiger will see a lot more cool substantial features included than a user of the distant Longhorn.

Some major Windows NT Point Releases

[Vandil X]

1996: Windows NT 4.0
1999: Windows 2000 (NT 5.0) - a major upgrade
2001: Windows XP (NT 5.1)
2003: Windows Server 2003 (NT 5.2)

Tiger Available on CD-ROM (extra cost)

[apenzott]

The CD-ROM Version is available by filling out this coupon and surrendering the DVD ROM and one upgrade coupon.

(I don't know if the family pack is dual-media.)

Re:Tiger Available on CD-ROM (extra cost)

[sakusha]

Well that's interesting. Yeah, like I'm going to wait around for media exchange via snail mail once I get the DVD into my hands. I think I'll resort to extreme geekery to make this work through some other means.

Re:Tiger Available on CD-ROM (extra cost)

[Moofie]

You mean like plugging a DVD-ROM into your Mac? Yeah, that takes extreme geekery. Or an external drive enclosure and a USB cable.

Re:Tiger Available on CD-ROM (extra cost)

[sakusha]

I said extreme geekery, not extreme idiocy. Only an idiot would go out and buy a USB DVD drive for an old machine that is worth less than a DVD drive, and then sit there and wait for the DVD to load at USB1 speeds.
Read upthread, I'm going to try to install via Firewire Target Disk Mode from another machine.

Re:Tiger Available on CD-ROM (extra cost)

[Moofie]

Or you could get a Firewire external drive enclosure. Cost you $50.

But target disk mode is great too.

I dunno..."Extreme geekery" would be soldering your own data cable that plugs the DVD drive into, I dunno, the S-VHS port, and using video capture and a custom video driver to get the data on to your computer.

Target disk mode is pushing a button at boot time. Not very "Extreme".

Re:Tiger Available on CD-ROM (extra cost)

[fingusernames]

That's the way it is these days. Coming from the age of old home computers, where opening up the box and soldering wires from pin X to pin Y, desoldering a chip to install a socket, making your own circuits to plug into the expansion bus (breadboard expansion cards rocked), etc. was relatively routine, modern mainstream geekery, consisting of plugging parts together, is pretty lame. Nowadays it seems that a kid considers himself a cool geek if he finds an obscure program online, downloads it, and installs it.

Larry

Re:Can't Wait

[GizmoToy]

Even if you bought it a couple weeks ago, I'd still give Apple Customer Service a call. As a few others throughout the postings have noted, even if they purchased machines as much as a week ago the reps were offering to supply them with Tiger for $10. I'd say its worth a shot either way... the worst thing they can do is tell you you'll have to pay retail.

Automator works to helps you...

[jonadab]

Yeouch, I can't believe this one slipped through! From the rollover text-as-graphic on Apple's own page:

Automator works like a tireless robot
inside your computer to helps you
streamline challenging or annoying
repetitive tasks without programming.

Re:Automator works to helps you...

[Anonymous Coward]

Linguo is dead.

install hacks.....?

[johnpaul191]

maybe hacks will come out, but from what i last researched the ways to trick OS X into installing on an older beige Mac did not allow 10.3 because it required built in USB. i would guess the same enabler would not play with the firewire/processor upgrades to the older iMacs (with mezzanine slot).

Not that much different

[SuperKendall]

How much time has been lost making sure the new file system that won't make it into Longhorn will work on each and every motherboard chipset, SCSI controller, SATA adaptor etc. Yes most hardware venders provide somewhat good drivers, but in a radical change like that Microsoft is forced to define the new driver standard and assist hardware companies in meeting it.

Time is spent on that to be sure, but consider this. When a new release of Windows is due out it's up to the hardware providers for the most part to make sure drivers do not break, and Apple still has to support as wide a range of third-party cards as possible with much less support from vendors.

Also don't forget how long Apple supports computers for - ten years or so I think (which is a lot of models). And they have to do all that support themselves while again Microsoft actually has no hardware per se - they have API's they code to that motherboards have to conform to. I'm sure some regression is done but probably not a lot more work than Apple.

And Apple users I would say are generally trying to run OS X on older computers than most Mac users. How many people are really running XP on a P450? Yet many people I know are running OS X on Macs of the same vintage.

Since Apple still has to support most of the third-party hardware the Windows world uses, I would say it comes out to be a wash or is even slightly harder for Apple.

The real key to Apple's ability to move forward in great leaps is they woke up and starting using open source as a base. How much more can Apple do because they do not have to work on compilers as much, or core OS pieces, or HTML renderers? A lot of work is being done for them. They still do some work to refine things but with a lot of the grunt work out of the way they can thnk and act at a higher level.

Re:Not that much different

[WMD_88]

Also don't forget how long Apple supports computers for - ten years or so I think (which is a lot of models).

Actually it's closer to seven, sometimes six.

Re:Not that much different

[Orion_]

Also don't forget how long Apple supports computers for - ten years or so I think (which is a lot of models).

That was once true, but you may not be aware of how aggressively Apple has been discontinuing support for old models. Tiger's system requirements specify that it only runs on Macs with built-in Firewire. (Which makes a whole hell of a lot of sense, eh?) In particular, none of these models will run Tiger:

Power Macs made before January 2000 (these didn't run Panther, either)
Powerbooks made before February 2000
iBooks made before September 2000
iMacs made before February 2001 (except the iMac DV)

So we have models slightly more than four years old no longer supported by Apple. And NO model more than five years old (plus a few months) is supported! I'm as much a fanboy as the next person (I have two Macs), but this scares me, because I often use my machines for longer than that. I got my Powerbook in January 2003, and apparently half its useful life is already gone. Say what you will about Microsoft, but XP will easily run on machines significantly older than 4-5 years.

I'm really surprised this issue hasn't gotten more attention. Those friends of yours running OS X on vintage machines will soon be a thing of the past.

Re:Not that much different

[Scudsucker]

There's a difference between "must have" and "not supported". When OS X was first released, it was only supported on systems that came with USB - i.e. starting with the first iMac. However, it ran on older G3's as well, but IIRC you might have had problems with misc hardware like DVD mpeg accelerators.

Re:Not that much different

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure it's been way too long for anyone to actually read this reply, but just for posterity, here goes:

Tiger's system requirements specify that it only runs on Macs with built-in Firewire. (Which makes a whole hell of a lot of sense, eh?) In particular, none of these models will run Tiger:

Power Macs made before January 2000 (these didn't run Panther, either)
Powerbooks made before February 2000
iBooks made before September 2000
iMacs made before February 2001 (except the iMac DV)

Actually, two of your dates are incorrect. The cutoff date for Power Macs is January 1999, when the blue-and-white G3 was introduced. And the cutoff date for iMacs is a little more complicated than you make it sound--while there were iMacs without FireWire made until about February 2001, I'm reasonably sure that all except the low-end model had had FireWire for quite some time before that. In fact, the first iMacs with FireWire were announced in about July 1999.

And I strongly suspect that iMacs without FireWire made after this time (IOW, slot-load iMacs without FireWire) will in fact be able to run Tiger, because I don't think it's lack of FireWire that will prevent Tiger from running, but rather lack of a Rage 128 or better: I suspect that what Apple's really doing with Tiger is dropping support for anything older than a Rage 128 (which actually does make some technical sense). Since every Mac that shipped with built-in FireWire also shipped with a Rage 128 or better, and it's easy to see whether you have FireWire ports or not, FireWire is an easy thing for Apple to put into the system requirements. Unfortunately, the converse is not true--there were a fair number of iMacs (the ones we're discussing) made with a Rage 128 or better but without FireWire, and, at least based on the official information, their Tiger status is a bit unclear. My guess, though, is that Tiger will install and run on them just like systems that definitely are officially supported, without the help of something like XPostFacto.

Re:Not that much different

[guet]

Those friends of yours running OS X on vintage machines will soon be a thing of the past.

Well, they will still run a recent version of OS X, just not the latest version. Most application vendors are only now considering dropping 10.2 support, let alone 10.3.

Microsoft's numbers for longevity are good just now because their OS is 4 years old. When Longhorn comes out, it won't support machines older than a few years, because of the steep requirements, and then the shoe will be on the other foot as we wait for an update from Apple.

Re:Not that much different

[Orion_]

As you say, way too late for anyone to read this, but hey, nothing better to do...

The cutoff date for Power Macs is January 1999, when the blue-and-white G3 was introduced.

Ah, you're right. My mistake.

And the cutoff date for iMacs is a little more complicated than you make it sound--while there were iMacs without FireWire made until about February 2001, I'm reasonably sure that all except the low-end model had had FireWire for quite some time before that.

Well, that's exactly what I said (with a different spin): iMacs made before February 2001, except the iMac DV, which was first released October 1999. (As I understand it, the iMac DV was identical to other iMacs made at the time except the DV had Firewire and a VGA out port for mirroring.)

I hope you're right about the Rage 128, but IMO if they'd meant to say "Rage 128 or better," they'd have said it. Apple's installers have unabashedly checked explicitly for compliance with their system requirements before, and I don't see any reason why they'd suddenly change their minds. It seems to me that this is Apple's way of getting people to buy a new Mac every 5 years or so, and not for any legitimate technical reason.

Re:Not that much different

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, that's exactly what I said (with a different spin): iMacs made before February 2001, except the iMac DV, which was first released October 1999. (As I understand it, the iMac DV was identical to other iMacs made at the time except the DV had Firewire and a VGA out port for mirroring.)

Yeah, you're right. I shouldn't have said that two of your dates were incorrect...more like one of them was incorrect and, for the other one, I thought you were taking too much of a glass-half-empty view. ;-) The thing is, by the latter part of 2000, I'm pretty sure there was only one iMac model that wasn't an iMac DV--so probably most of the iMacs sold before all of them had FireWire were the FireWire-equipped models anyway.

I hope you're right about the Rage 128, but IMO if they'd meant to say "Rage 128 or better," they'd have said it. Apple's installers have unabashedly checked explicitly for compliance with their system requirements before, and I don't see any reason why they'd suddenly change their minds. It seems to me that this is Apple's way of getting people to buy a new Mac every 5 years or so, and not for any legitimate technical reason.

Well, this is the first time that the official system requirements haven't corresponded with (what I suspect to be) the true system requirements. With the Panther release, "built-in USB" was required, but I think it's generally agreed that Apple was really dropping support for OldWorld ROMs, and that USB was decided to be more user-visible than the Boot ROM. :-) However, in that case, the set of Macs with built-in USB and the set of Macs with NewWorld ROMs were exactly the same, so that system requirement worked well. In this case, though, the set of Macs with built-in FW and the set with a Rage 128 or better are not the same, and I suspect that Apple is playing it safe with the system requirements, but the installer will check for a Rage 128 and not for a FireWire port.

However, I have no inside or other information to really support this. :-) Just a strong hunch.

Re:[CD-ROM Version of Tiger Avaiable] (Extra Cost)

[apenzott]

The CD-ROM Version is available by filling out this coupon and surrendering the DVD and one upgrade coupon.

(I don't know if the family pack is dual media.)

Re:Core Image/Core Audio

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe you're thinking of QuartzExtreme, which offloaded window rendering to the GPU via OpenGL. My understanding of CoreImage is that it uses programmable GPUs to offload image processing. It is running specialized code to take advantage of the GPU, and not necessarily doing it via OpenGL.

Is it just me ...

[roubles]

... or do they still not have support for multiple workspaces (aka virtual desktops) ?

I thought this was way up on the requested features list ... apparently not.

But seriously, isn't is about time ? Solaris, KDE, Gnome have had this support for ages.

Re:Is it just me ...

[Moofie]

Have you used Expose? I find it much better than virtual desktops (which I think are available in any number of third-party utilities).

Re:Is it just me ...

[roubles]

Nope, I haven't used Expose, but all it looks like is a window minimizer, unclutterer or cascader.

It's not just about finding windows, its about organizing them too.

You see, if I train myself to always keep the same windows in the same place - I never need to look for them. For example, Firefox is always in desktop 2. In KDE, at any given time I can see 25 windows, and know exactly which one I want to go to, using the pager.

This is the one thing that is keeping me from getting a mini. I've used third party utilities on windows, and they suck. To me, it seems like a basic functionality of a windows manager. Third pary utilities, don't cut it.

I know Longhorn will have this and I was almost positive Tiger would have this, maybe not. Oh well ...

Re:Is it just me ...

[Moofie]

Fair enough. That's not the way I work, so I can't speak to your experience. If that's a deal-killer for you, it's a deal-killer.

However, I've found that third-party software on Macintoshes is pretty darn good. Even freeware utilities seem to be programmed by people who actually care about how well their software works. I guess I'm just pointing out that your experience with Windows utilities may not be analogous.

Good luck.

Re:Is it just me ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, I haven't used Expose, but all it looks like is a window minimizer, unclutterer or cascader.

It's not just about finding windows, its about organizing them too.

You hit the Nail on the head there. I have eight desktops on my KDE machine (PIM, Documentation, Bugs, Testing, Chat, Company + 2 project desktops). However I'm still going to switch over to a mac at work after using it at home.

Personally, between Dock, Expose, and everything else I still think the benifits outweighs the loss of a native desktop switcher. There is a 3rdparty one I intend to try though. My experience with 3rdparty mac tools so far has been pretty good. the crowd doing them seem to be much more concerned with polish and usability than on the other two platforms I am used to.

Re:Is it just me ...

[healy]

I've been using CodeTek VirtualDesktop Pro since switching from Linux. It does the trick just fine & even has focus follows mouse built in to it.

Re:Is it just me ...

[gobbo]

do they still not have support for multiple workspaces

I use both Expose and Desktop Manager to organise the 8-15 apps and dozens of windows I have open at any one time. DM is alpha, and a bit quirky but functional and hasn't crashed yet. It's GPL'd and runs as a standalone app, with some acqualicious interface elements. I'm using it with the four desktops it came prefigured with. Took a couple of minutes to find, download, install, and begin using.

FWIW, I'd be surprised if OS X got this feature soon. It's cluttery (like my real world desk) and not a very Apple kind of aesthetic. I'd rather they left some workflow interface things up to 3rd party variation, anyway. Look at how good Quicksilver is as an interface enhancement, for instance, or Pathfinder. I do wish Apple would loosen up the interface, and give us skinning options and things like replacing Finder.

You can still get them out of the packages

[Anonymous Coward]

You can still open the packages on the restore discs that came with your machine, and install the iLife apps. Try a program called Pacifist.

gah! no more Pismo!!!

[boomerny]

bummer, Pismo Powerbook is not on the list. Odd because it appears the clamshell ibooks are supported and Pismo is definitely faster(faster bus and larger L2 cache in Pismo). My 400mhz Pismo is much faster than my 466mhz clamshell at every task I've ever thrown at them.

Not yet in Mail.app

[FaasNat]

Tiger's got a lot of nice new features. However, the one thing I'm looking for is being able to compose emails in HTML in the Mail.app. When making nice text formatting and what not, it's only best viewed by another user using Mail.appl. Seems to get screwed up in other email clients.

Sure I could use Thunderbird or something, but I like Mail.app's interface and junk mail filtering. Oh well, maybe it's in Tiger, but not just mentioned in all the previews I've been reading.

Re:Not yet in Mail.app

[FaasNat]

Okay, I take that back. Reading through the comments, I came across a link to the page with Mac OS X's new features. On that page, I found this.

HTML Message Composition
Format newly composed email using HTML.

Woohoo!

Re:Not yet in Mail.app

[argent]

Format newly composed email using HTML.

Stercus, stercus, stercus, moriturus sum.

Re:Not yet in Mail.app

[finkployd]

Speaking on behalf of those who use Mutt, Pine, any accessibility software (text to speech), or any other text based clients: Fuck!

It's email folks, not a website.

Ah, I'm done being a grumpy curmudgeon for now.

Finkployd

Re:Core Image/Core Audio

[As Seen On TV]

Image Units are written in the OpenGL Shading Language. The only thing it has in common with Open GL is the name.

Bad Analogy

[Anonymous Coward]

People think George Bush is dumb because he's not articulate; just like Stephen Hawking.

That's a suprisingly bad analogy. Stephen Hawking is remarkably articulate with his speach synthesizer. The tone is rather robotic but it's at least correct grammer.

Re:Bad Analogy

[Anonymous Coward]

The tone is rather robotic but it's at least correct grammer.

And I bet his printouts spell "grammar" correctly, too.

Re:Awesome!

[Selecter]

It's designed much better as well. Steve's little microbes in his guts are all gay and have design and style abilities most gut microbes dont have. :D

Amazon rebate coupon

[buddhahat]

Amazon has a rebate coupon for Tiger pre-orders:

$35 off Tiger single license

$50 off Family pack.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail /-/software/B0002G71T0/rebate-info/104-4126853-587 3559?m=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Re:[CD-ROM Version of Tiger Avaiable] (Extra Cost)

[ColMustard]

Okay, thanks for the info.

That's pretty lame, though. It would cost like 20 cents more to include both media in the same box. Either that or they should just stick with CDs, since everything can read those.

Recently bought, definitely upgrading

[Winterblink]

I recently bought a Mac (about a month or two ago) so I don't qualify for the cheap upgrade as far as I know. But I'm still definitely going to pay for this upgrade.

My experience with OS X has been nothing short of amazing. I look between my Mac and my XP machine and wonder why the heck I'm using the latter, when the former is more stable, easier to work with, and generally a hell of a lot more slick. Everybody who's come by has looked at it and scoffed, but when you sit them in front of it and have them play around, most people are sold on the things.

Re:Recently bought, definitely upgrading

[strikethree]

I just bought a 17 inch powerbook two weeks ago. God I am annoyed. Waiting two friggin weeks would have saved me $130. Grrrrrrrr. I should have listened to the popular advice which said to just wait until they announced the release date. This is my very first Apple product I have ever bought too. What a way to start. :( Do you know what is even worse? I won't even receive my powerbook until AFTER Tiger is released to the public. (shipping times to Iraq are looooonnnnng)

strike

Re:Recently bought, definitely upgrading

[strikethree]

Sorry about replying to myself, but after my previous whinefest, I figured Apple deserved this:

I chose options on the phone to get my in touch with a real live human being instead of a recording and Apple is sending me Tiger next day shipping for FREE. (I probably should not have mentioned the free part). They do treat their customers well.

strike

Re:yeah.. but..

[KH]

More likely to include Objective Zealot, no?

Free (as in beer) for some

[gimpboy]

This depends on your institution. Here at the University of Pittsburgh they were free. You goto the computing services people, show them your ID, and they gave you a copy. However, we had to wait a little while after the initial release for the install media to become available.

Re:Free (as in beer) for some

[shotfeel]

Its the same at many universities that have a licensing agreement in place with Apple. I have no idea how much it costs (if anyting) for the university.

Re:Free (as in beer) for some

[wallykeyster]

I just placed an order today for $69 from the Apple Store.

Darn

[CarrionBird]

Been running panther on my 2000+ (no, really) and was hoping for a speed boost. It runs a tad slow, being the wrong platform and all.

Includes VAT

[Thu25245]

Please take your complaints here:

HM Customs and Excise

The US price does not include US state sales tax (Often around 6%)

Re:Includes VAT

[Andy_R]

Last time I checked, the tax on software upgrades was a lot less than 160%

Factoring in the 17.5% 'value added tax', we are being overcharged by 17USD on the normal upgrade, and the recent customer price is still more than double what US customers are being charged.

Re:Includes VAT

[aristotle-dude]

Yeah, you are forgetting the Customs Import Tax and Tariffs which "protect" your home grown computer industry from imports. Talk to your Member of Parliment.

Re:Includes VAT

[Andy_R]

Pure FUD. We don't have any tariffs on software, and we don't have any tariffs on imports from Ireland, where Apple's local HQ is.

Re:They should have called it saber-toothed tiger

[cillasri]

You can think what you want, dude. Mac's coming.

The un-sung hero - TextEdit

[SuperKendall]

One of the things really improved in this release that gets no press is TextEdit.

Already better than WordPad or Notepad (primarily because you can operate either ina normal or rich text mode), it has a lot of great enhancements - you can read Word files more easily (I think it comes with table support now and can read XML files saved out by Word), you can do bulleted lists, and even better you can save as HTML with CSS support! So Tiger now has a nice and very simple HTML editor included.

TextEdit could probably handle something like 80% of the documents people ever work on now.

Re:The un-sung hero - TextEdit

[argent]

This is cool, I really like TextEdit. Does this apply to other Cocoa rich text editing fields?

Re:The un-sung hero - TextEdit

[mrchaotica]

TextEdit could probably handle something like 80% of the documents people ever work on now.

It handles 100% of mine...

(well, unless I'm using a console-based editor, like emacs or nano)

Re:The un-sung hero - TextEdit

[jcr]

TextEdit is a pretty thin wrapper around the Cocoa text system.

-jcr

Re:The un-sung hero - TextEdit

[Anonymous Coward]

My quibble is that TE doesn't respond to the home and end keys. Minor issue though, as my old Mac (keyboard) didn't even have those keys, but I am getting accustomed to their presence.

Otherwise it's been meeting my editing needs so far. BBEdit Lite was my editor of choice on my old Mac, so I downloaded BareBones' TextWrangler, (more or less the OSX successor,) but haven't used it yet.

Re:The un-sung hero - TextEdit

[argent]

TextEdit is a pretty thin wrapper around the Cocoa text system.

that's what I thought, hence my hopefully-not-too-naive assumption that other text apps would also get the new toys...

Re:The un-sung hero - TextEdit

[Anonymous Coward]

Try Command-Left and Command-Right. Those are the Mac equivalents to Home and End in pretty much every application (except, of course, for Microsoft Office).

Re:The un-sung hero - TextEdit

[tim1724]

My quibble is that TE doesn't respond to the home and end keys. Minor issue though, as my old Mac (keyboard) didn't even have those keys, but I am getting accustomed to their presence.

It does use them, it just doesn't do what you expect. The Human Interface Guidelines say that home should scroll to the top left corner of the document (w/o moving the insertion point) and end should scroll to the bottom of the document (again, w/o moving the insertion point).

To move the insertion point to the beginning/end of the line, you are supposed to hit command-left or command-right arrow. Or in Cocoa applications such as TextEdit, emacs fans can use Control-A and Control-E. (Cocoa's text systems supports a large subset of the common emacs editing commands by default.)

Luckily the Cocoa text system can have its keyboard commands changed. Apple's documentation is here. (Note: Apple renames documents and changes their URL structure occasionally, so if you're looking at this in two years and the link is broken, well, it ain't my fault.)

See also this page which includes some information about changing key bindings.

Specifically, you want to bind key \UF729 (home) to "moveToBeginningOfLine:" and key \UF72B (end) to "moveToEndOfLine:". By default, they're bound to "scrollToBeginningOfDocument:" and "scrollToEndOfDocument: ".

See the list of "Action methods" on this page for a list of methods which you can bind to keys.

Note that Carbon programs won't be affected .. they will continue to use the Classic Mac OS text editing keys. But TextEdit is a Cocoa application, so it will honor your preferences.

Re:The un-sung hero - TextEdit

[Anonymous Coward]

It does use them, it just doesn't do what you expect. The Human Interface Guidelines say that home should scroll to the top left corner of the document

whoops, must've been thinking about a different app. disregard my post. :)

Pismo Support?

[Enrique1218]

I see that the B&W G3 is still supported. The system requirements say Firewire-based G3, G4, G5. So, Why isn't the 2000 Powerbook (Firewire) listed in the Under Powerbooks in the hardware requirement. Its got same processor and the mobile version of it GFX card. Mind you, I don't really want to upgrade my Pismo any further but I do need a copy of Mac OSX if my current system crashes (I destroy my original Jaguar CD). Any insights?

Re:Pismo Support?

[solios]

Seeing as how the Pismo came out after the blue G3s, has new world roms, comes with a DVD drive and meets the sysreqs in all other ways, there's no reason it shouldn't be supported.

Though in the words of a rich-bitch upper class queen who encountered me in 2003 : "Oh gawd, I didn't know anyone was still USING anything that OLD!". Apple seems to have a very short memory w/r/t their portables, though they'd have to do something pretty drastic to drop the pismo out of elligible system requirements (I could see them nudging out early iMacs and blue g3s by requiring AGP-only, but the pismo has that...).

Re:Pismo Support?

[Enrique1218]

My thoughts exactly. Though I not sure I would want to temp fate and fork over $70 only to the installer tell me this model is not supported.

Re:Pismo Support?

[Anonymous Coward]

Download a copy of Tiger. Back up your system, and install it. If it works, buy a copy. If not, restore from the backup.

Re:Pismo Support?

[dave at hostwerks]

I can personally verify it runs on a Pismo just fine.

Re:[CD-ROM Version of Tiger Avaiable] (Extra Cost)

[Moofie]

Hmm...I wonder if there's more data on the DVD than on the CD? I wonder if they'd have to package a bunch o' CDs in that box?

Yay DVD distribution. I'm sick of switching CDs.

All it needs are Genuine People Personalities!

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, that copy reads like it was written by someone in marketing at the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation.

Re:All it needs are Genuine People Personalities!

[jonadab]

The marketing fluff is normal -- in fact, I barely noticed it, as out of long habbit I've trained myself to read through hype and pick out the relevant bits (at least, usually); it's the grammatical anomoly that I didn't expect to see coming out of Apple. They're usually relatively careful about that.

How to answer

[SuperKendall]

So...when I go to a library Mac and launch Safari and browse my bank account...how do I know it really is Safari?

I would tell you, but how do I know you're really harlows_monkeys?

I'm in the same boat

[gimpboy]

I got my powerbook the week the new ones were released. Now, there wasn't anything official, that I am aware of, with respect to software updates. Everything I read suggested that computers purchased two weeks prior to a software upgrade would be given free upgrades (more or less). Even though this might not have been the official policy, it seemed to be, and currently seems to be, the de facto policy.

Since I'm a student, $129 is a bit for me. However, being a student, I'll be getting Tiger free from the school.

xpostfacto

[Anonymous Coward]

i imagine you'll be able to use xpostfacto to install it.

Tiger, iLife '05, iWork for $249

[Anonymous Coward]

According to a story on MacObserver, Apple is offering a limited time offer (expires May 31, 2005) to save $38 off the retail price of Tiger, iLife '05, and iWork by bundling the products for $249.

The offer is only available directly from Apple.

iChat System Requirements A Little High...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Initiating a multiway video conference requires a G5 or dual 1GHz or faster G4 processor and 384-Kbps or faster broadband access. Participating in a multiway video conference and initiating a 6-person multiway audio conference both require a G5, 1GHz G4, dual 800MHz or faster G4 processor, and 100-Kbps or faster broadband access."

From the applestore (uk, education, family pack if it makes a difference ). Maybe not that unreasonable but seems a little high to me. But wooo anway!

Re:Core Image/Core Audio

[TheRaven64]

There is more to DirectX than 3D graphics. Some rough (very rough) equivalents:

• DirectAudio - CoreAudio / QuickTime / OpenAL
• DirectPlay - OpenPlay
• DirectShow - QuickTime / CoreVideo / CoreAudio
• DirectInput - HID Manager

Re:[CD-ROM Version of Tiger Avaiable] (Extra Cost)

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you could stop being a pussy and get with the times.

Just sayin'.

Re:Core Image/Core Audio

[Brad Oliver]

Image Units are written in the OpenGL Shading Language. The only thing it has in common with Open GL is the name.

That, and the fact that GLSL is part of OpenGL itself. ;-) Seriously, CoreImage uses OpenGL's GLSL/fragment program capability, it doesn't write directly to the GPU or bypass OpenGL or other nonsense. (I'm an OSX programmer, specifically games.)

iSync phone list

[2.246.1010.78]

Most important thing for this announcement is an updated list of iSync supported devices here: http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/isync/devices .html

at least there is progress concerning support for nokia phones :)

Yeah, in your ass

[Anonymous Coward]

The only place mac is 'coming' is in your butt every time they charge you $129 for a service pack.

At 6pm.

[inertia187]

Just a note, it says "Friday, April 29, 6 p.m."

http://www.apple.com/home/2005/images/tigercounter 20050429.gif

Current Apple Theme -- Allow Users to Create

[ghutchis]

I think you hit on one "theme" that I see in a lot of what Apple is doing right now on the software-side. They have so much software designed to allow users to easily "create."

So their developer tools and AppleScript (and now CoreData and Automator) allow a user to easily create custom applications. It helps that the developer tools are included with the OS. My mom might not care, but it sure helps me!

GarageBand -- create music easily.

iMovie, iDVD -- create movies easily and export to DVDs.

Heck, even Keynote now has features to make interactive kiosk presentations.

The list goes on, of course. But so much seems to be putting the power into the user's hands to become a content creator, not just a consumer.

FINALLY!

[Anonymous Coward]

iChat is getting real groups!

No more of this "filtering" hack they've had...

SSH CHROOT ?

[ratso87]

Any word on if changes were made to the SFTP/SSH CHROOT problem with OS X? It would be nice to isolate people into certain folder like with FTP services...only more secure.

RendezVous may not be 'new' but its GREAT!

[crovira]

This 'over a lan' (specially a wireless LAN) implementation of ZeroConf is the great thing since sliced bread.

Why don't I read more about ZeroConf here?

I love being able to print to any printer that's hooked up to any machine.

I love being able to get my tunes from and to any machine that's running iTunes (2 Macs and a Win2k, [my Linux box is deficient there.])

RevdezVous is great use of the technology.

Re:RendezVous may not be 'new' but its GREAT!

[harikiri]

The rendezvous implementation in iTunes is brilliant. Within the office I can listen to my workmates music library, and vice versa.

In this type of office setup, it makes so much more sense to integrate rendezvous into anything that would benefit from collaboration, as your apps can see whoever else is running the app, and provide a dynamic way for finding and communicating with colleagues.

I believe subthaedit (or another mac editor) already uses this to enable people to work on the same document/code/etc at the same time.

Re: your sig

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell is a Minimac? Get it right, moron.

DIFFERENT PRODUCT

[chriswaco]

The calculator shipping with Tiger is a completely different product than the Graping Calculator from Pacific Tech (ie, the one that shipped with MacOS 9).

The "real" one is at: http://www.pacifict.com/

Re:[CD-ROM Version of Tiger Avaiable] (Extra Cost)

[ColMustard]

Obviously. That's why I made the comment that they could include both media in the same box. Duh.

I wish that the windows/macs comparisons

[crovira]

would just stop. Enough already.

They aren't competing in the same space at all. (except for the XServers.)

Apple is a hardware company that makes great hardware some of which has a great OS and some of which needs no accessible OS.

Dashboard, Speech, and a PVR

[chia_monkey]

I think Apple is poised to make quite an entry into a PVR market in some capacity. I keep looking at Dashboard and think how simple it would be to control your TV, DVD player, iTunes, etc with that. Hm...imagine now training the Speech part of Tiger to work hand-in-hand with the Dashboard components. Oh sweet mother of all things holy...now you're controlling iTunes or your PVR (Mac Mini with Eye TV?) with your voice? Yum...yum I say.

Re:Dashboard, Speech, and a PVR

[mrchaotica]

your PVR (Mac Mini with Eye TV?)

Or Mac Mini hooked to a digital cable box via Firewire.

Re:Tiger? Pow!

[Anonymous Cumshot]

TIGER UPPERCUT!

Re:[CD-ROM Version of Tiger Avaiable] (Extra Cost)

[ColMustard]

It's not a problem for me because I have a DVD combo I could swap in. It's lame because many of the Macs that this new version supports did not come with a DVD combo or even a DVD rom. Thus it makes sense that CD version should be easier to access, if not included right in the box.

Re:[CD-ROM Version of Tiger Avaiable] (Extra Cost)

[Moofie]

One DVD and (say) four CDs. Yeah, that won't increase their production and support costs any.

Re:[CD-ROM Version of Tiger Avaiable] (Extra Cost)

[ColMustard]

You seem to be under the impression that pressed media is expensive or something. It's not, and there's definitely room in the box.

Re:lame naming scheme

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that (r/w ftp) might finally happen when they figure out how to get the OS to stop writing .DS_Store files on every system it visits

if volume == local { write .DS_Store} else // don't

No arm twisting, you say?

[Anonymous Coward]

But she got a little spanking, right?!

Re:[CD-ROM Version of Tiger Avaiable] (Extra Cost)

[Moofie]

Pressed media is not expensive. Designing attractive packaging and including it in each box, and quadrupling defective media fulfillment problems, are not zero-cost.

It's a cost benefit decision. Apparently, Apple decided that the large majority of upgraders have a DVD drive in their computers. For the people that do not, they have another option. You might wish that it were different, and I certainly understand why it might be inconvenient. It's also inconvenient that I don't have a pony. I wish I had a pony.

If they have a sense of humor...

[objekt]

..."Liger" should at least be a development name.

Re:Core Image/Core Audio

[TheLittleJetson]

The only similarity to DirectX is that they're writing a software API that does the dirty-work of dealing with hardware. That way, you just write your code for the API and not for the different video/audio cards.

X11 instead of Aqua?

[avocade]

This from the X11-page:

"Experts may choose to replace the native Aqua window manager with their own familiar, standard X Window Manager."

Is this something new with Tiger or has it been possible (officially so) on Panther before?

Re:X11 instead of Aqua?

[inkswamp]

There have been rumors since before the release of Jaguar (10.2) that Apple was going to include the ability to use UI themes but no mention of changing Aqua has ever surfaced in anything official (as far as I know.) Presumably, the ability to change themes is hidden in OS X somewhere, but it's never had a user interface put on it. Maybe this is a side-effect of that. Maybe these "expert users" can tinker with the inner working of OS X to access those rumored theme features and can plug more Unix-like interfaces into it. Who knows?

I've always enjoyed the ability to use themes. I wish Apple would spare a little development time on OS X to include it. It's frivolous, but anything that makes an interface more personalized can't hurt.

Re:X11 instead of Aqua?

[Guy Harris]

"Experts may choose to replace the native Aqua window manager with their own familiar, standard X Window Manager."

Note that this does not mean "you can use an arbitrary X11 window manager to manage all windows", it means "you don't have to use quartz-wm as your window manager for X11 windows". (See "man quartz-wm" for more information on quartz-wm.)

Re:X11 instead of Aqua?

[The Wicked Priest]

This does not say "replace Aqua with X". This says "replace the Aqua X window manager (used for X clients) with another X window manager".

TIGER SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

[Lifsos]

This may be a stupid question but I haven't been able to find an answer on apple.com or anywhere else . . . Do you have to be running 10.3.x to upgrade? I'm running 10.2.8. Thanks

Re:TIGER SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

[argent]

Do you have to be running 10.3.x to upgrade?

Exteremely unlikely, no previous version has had that kind of requirement.

Re:TIGER SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

[Lifsos]

Thanks, Argent and Warlock, I was pretty sure I didn't but wanted to be sure . . .

Re:yeah.. but..

[Anonymous Coward]

It comes with a Randian? Oh wait....

Re:[CD-ROM Version of Tiger Avaiable] (Extra Cost)

[ColMustard]

Obviously, but the cost required beyond the media would be smaller than you think. First of all, there is no packaging to be designed; standard white envelopes like which were used with Panther are very cheap and would work just fine. The defective media wouldn't quadruple either, since you use either the DVD or the CDs (and those using the CDs would have to go through the media exchange process anyway). Therefore the total defective media would be lower than Panther, because of the addition of DVD media. Plus, you can figure in the cost it takes to run the media exchange program. Plus the fact that there actually are tons of eligible Macs without DVD roms, and that including both media in the box would make users happier.

It's looking like the dual media isn't such a bad idea after all. Not that it matters to me, because I'll just swap in my DVD combo, but it never hurts to go the short extra length to make it easier for the users.

Re:lame naming scheme

[Blitzenn]

" Because grandma can't remember 10.4, but she can remember..."

Now... was that Tigdows or was that Winger, I forget? hmmm.

Don't panic about Pismo yet.

[argent]

one wonders what the fate of the newer but still Firewire-less slot-load 350MHz iMacs will be.

That's one of the two anomolies on the requirements page... it simply says "slot-load iMac". Either Firewire isn't the actual cutoff, or the detailed list is wrong. I sent Apple feedback suggesting they clarify that point this morning... we will see.

I don't think DVD is a requirement.

[argent]

I notice it's a DVD only too.

I don't believe that's the case. There was a note somewhere about CD versions being available on request.

Re:[CD-ROM Version of Tiger Avaiable] (Extra Cost)

[Moofie]

Obviously, Apple doesn't agree with you that the extra length would be short. I'm pretty sure they've a) thought about this, and b) run a cost-benefit analysis. This is the way they've chosen to go.

Why do we care again?

So what you're saying is that....

[kf6auf]

*you* can't say anything because you're on the inside but that you think its useful for us to know that some other guy found it so much faster it's crazy. I mean, the simple fact that you feel like telling us this, means that this speed increase is probably true.

In fact, this would be a good cover story for telling us all how much faster it is without obviously violating your NDA.

::sigh:: I need to analyze people on /. less.

Green is the color of...

[Anonymous Coward]

(Sorry about the AC - just has to be).

You may lament the seemingly slower progress on Windows, but as a developer who just pushed through a major cross-platform product release, let me tell you which model I prefer...

Apple calls their development process "managed chaos" - it's really all chaos. Every release of Apple's OS is going to break something in our app - you can pretty much count on it. And not something minor either. And we're talking about the already-shipping version of the app. Things are worse for the one you are building. Not to mention the very poor state of the documentation.

Windows? The progress may seem slow, but a lot of it happens where it counts - stability and compatibility. And Microsoft is at least trying to do some interesting things. As bad as the Media Center Edition is, it's at least an effort, and they'll get it right someday. Apple hasn't even tried something here. And Microsoft's documentation for developers is top-notch. If I find an API behaving wierdly, I can usually find the note on the bug or purposeful strange behavior within 10 minutes.

Apple makes software that gives a great demo. CoreImage is neat until you actually try and go beyond playing. Dashboard is fun until you realize you can't have it up and still accomplish something. Yeah, I still like it all too, and yeah, I'd probably put a Mac mini in the electronics stack if it could drive 1080i out and have a PowerStrip equivalent (c'mon Apple, get with it!). And as an old Unix-head, I really like having a real command line rather than the bolt-on Cygwin (where the nature of it occasionally leaks through).

But as I think about doing all the real day-to-day things, I'm not so sure there really is all that much to be jealous of.

Re:[CD-ROM Version of Tiger Avaiable] (Extra Cost)

[ColMustard]

Now you're under the impression that Apple always does the right thing, in which case I now realize you're just a fanboy and I quietly exit from the conversation. But here's a thought as I leave that may just rock your world: Just because Apple is doing it one way doesn't mean there may not be a better alternative.

Take care.

What happens when Apple runs out of cat names?

[nimgrim]

Is this the future of OSX?

Re:[CD-ROM Version of Tiger Avaiable] (Extra Cost)

[Moofie]

No, I'm under the impression that Apple does what Apple does, and they've probably got a reason for doing what they do.

You might think there are better alternatives, but it's not your decision, is it?

I don't happen to think one way or the other about their decision. There are pros and cons to both sides, and I can appreciate that. I don't recall endorsing their decision: I simply restated it, and hypothesized about their motivation.

But, hey, if anybody who disagrees with you is a fanboy, I guess I'm a fanboy. I've got a thought that might just rock YOUR world: People can disagree with you for perfectly rational reasons, and that doesn't make them stupid.

Re:OHMYGODTEHAPPAL!!!11!

[Anonymous Coward]

Crudely put, but it does sum up this entire discussion. Can't we keep the applebation on macslash where it blongs?

Finals

[Skatters]

Just in time for finals week.
My GPA is shot.

Yale?

[David Rolfe]

FWIW, Didn't G.W. go to Yale? (Who didn't?!)

I'm sure Google could tell me. God, I'm so lazy.

Re:Core Image/Core Audio

[Anonymous Coward]

You work for Adobe?

One word: QuickSilver.

[kiddailey]

I agree that the Finder has its issues. However, install QuickSilver and you won't bitch as much about the Finder anymore.

Most incredible and helpful piece of software ever.

Re:One word: QuickSilver.

[Anonymous Coward]

QuickSilver: "An evolving framework for accessing and
manipulating many forms of personal data". Njanjanja...

I've been told by many people to check it out and whenever I go to this page, I don't understand a thing. This description is a general and all-encompassing as it gets! And the following pages are not better either. I still don't get it - why is it good? The company behind it is obviously unable to clearly communicate what it sells - can somebody else tell my why QuickSilver is worthy of my time?

Re:One word: QuickSilver.

[eikonos]

QuickSilver is like a command line, but different. it's hard to describe, so I'll give an example:

-press the QS hotkey, then type sa
-the safari icon shows up, hitting enter runs Safari

I use it to run apps like that most often, but it does a number of other things too.

Re:Core Image/Core Audio

[Anonymous Coward]

Core Image has much to do with OpenGL; it is how the hardware acceleration is achieved, after all.

See here for an example of Core Image's CIKernel Language, which is really just a derivative of OpenGL SL.

Did anyone read the list of Core Image components?

[SnowDog74]

Four words:

Photoshop is dead meat.

Re:Can't Wait

[jweatherley]

Yes, you'd better search every dark corner of Apple's site to determine future release dates because it's not as if every single Apple announcement gets splashed all over Slashdot and the rest of the web. Luckily I slayed a goat when the mini was announced and the entrails divined that Tiger would be released in H1 2005 - I've just ordered mine today. The lesson is to learn to read the Apple release cycle if you don't want to get stung - it ain't that hard...

Backup, but not clean

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows will do a backup of old system files for you so you can revert to your previous installation, but that's different. It can't do a nice clean install and leave your apps in your home directory, running perfectly.

The registry makes this impossible. A clean install of windows means having. If you have a fresh registry, almost all apps will not work. You will have to reinstall.

With the way Apple does it, and of course this is just inherited from Unix, you can put your home directory on a USB drive, plug it into any mac anywhere, and use the computer as if it were your own. The operating system and the user applications are separate.

There may be a few hardware drivers which have been installed in the System folder... things that do belong in System space. You'll have to move those over from the backup.

User space and OS space are messily intertwined in Windows, never to be teased apart again.

DUDE! Shoulda gotten a DELL!

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay just kidding.
(-Mac owner)

Apple's strongarm tactics

[gumpish]

Even if Apple does get Java 1.5 (it's not 5, you damn marketroids!) available for 10.4, that still means if you develop end-users apps for the general public and you want to use the cleaner syntax that 1.5 makes available, your Mac users will be required to upgrade their OS.

Is there a non-Sun/Apple JVM that works under OS X?

No...

[Warlock7]

This is not that kind of upgrade...

Works in 10.3 too:

[Anonymous Coward]

Just ctrl-alt click on the finder icon in the dock - voilà: "Restart Finder" :-)

Speech the main entry point of user interaction?

[Anonymous Coward]

When are we going to cross the line and start talking to our computer rather than typing to it? I think that Speech and VoiceOver are paving the way, but at a rather slow pace...

Re:[CD-ROM Version of Tiger Avaiable] (Extra Cost)

[kongjie]

Both of you (the reasonable one and the unreasonable one) are ignoring one more reason why it doesn't make sense to include ~4 CD's along with every DVD:

it's a waste of resources.

Most people don't need the CD's, so why waste the disks? I'm sure this isn't why Apple is doing it--it IS a financial decision--but I'm happy about it anyway.

Just in time, my laptop died!

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been waiting for Tiger to come out, so I could get a new PowerBook but also have been putting it off since my old Gateway laptop was doing okay. However last night the part to where the power cable connects in to decided to die and now I can't charge my battery and that's down to 2% capacity. Thank the Maker I have a linux box at home that I can use until I take delivery of brand new PowerBook with Tiger installed.

word on the street

[commodoresloat]

Word on the street is that everything is much snappier under 10.4.

Yep, got that wrong...

[SuperKendall]

Looking back I did seem to inflate that a bit. I'll just say six from now on, which still is pretty good.

100% for me, later...

[SuperKendall]

Sometimes I did turn to other things for table support. I mostly used TextEdit when I wanted bold text, and also Emacs for most plaintext work.

With table support I really will also be able to hit 100% use, hopefully even with Word documents others sent (really that's where most of the tables were from).

Hmm, had not looked at specs...

[SuperKendall]

I have to admit that's a bit of a disturbing shift. But at least Panther will still run on them, and Panther will be supported for a little while yet with updates.

And, in the worst case, there is always YellowDog! Not as pretty but it gives you a usable computer.

Sorry for inflating the supported date figure.

Just make sure...

[jpellino]

...it's really this box http://www.apple.com/macosx/
... and not this one http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6302 787556/

Re:I'd rather use Windows

[aristotle-dude]

WTF do you think those 10.3.x things were? They are service packs. Every two weeks? Do tell?

Let's see, there were eight free service packs for 10.2 and there will apparently be a 9th service pack coming out of 10.3 before Tiger ships.

Are you a little bitter because MSFT slow in coming out with Longhorn and dropping features?

When did MSFT give a free upgrade from Windows 95 (4.0) to Windows 98 (4.1)? What about from Windows 98 to Windows 98SE or from Windows 98 to Windows ME?

Was there a free upgrade from Windows 2000Pro (5.0) to XP (5.1)?

original math was correct

[commodoresloat]

The RIAA did the math. The inflated rates are based on the fact that Tiger has support for fast CD and DVD writers.

And the rest with Pages

[GrahamCox]

TextEdit could probably handle something like 80% of the documents people ever work on now.

Another 19% with Pages, leaving Word with a 1% niche market... Oh, the joy!!!

Meanwhile Microsoft has their own BIG ANNOUNCEMENT

[Anonymous Coward]

MEANWHILE, Microsoft also had a big announcement of their own today:

Unpatched flaw found in Microsoft software

By Ina Fried

Microsoft is investigating the report of a flaw that could open systems up to attack.

The vulnerability, which was not one of eight patched by Microsoft on Tuesday, is in the Jet database engine component, according to an advisory posted the same day by security company Secunia. It could enable an intruder to remotely execute malicious code on a vulnerable PC, Secunia said.

Secunia rated the problem "highly critical," noting that exploit code for the flaw had been shared on a public mailing list.

A Microsoft representative said on Tuesday that the company has not heard of any attacks on customers' systems using the unpatched security hole.

"We are aware of the exploit code that has been released," the Microsoft representative said, adding that the software maker would take appropriate action once it has completed its investigation of the problem.

Word of the problem comes on the same day Microsoft released fixes for eight other flaws, several of them critical, and some of them revealed publicly for the first time in its monthly security bulletin.

====
I know I am going to be an AppleFanBoy® when I say this, but I just don't get why the masses don't make the switch.

Companies, I get, it's about cheap and IT people keeping their jobs.

But why would someone risk their personal files and deny themselves all the fun technology can provide.

Caps to Ctrl mapping!

[floop]

Does anyone know if the new feature to remap modifiers such as control and caps lock for compatibility with Windows and UNIX keyboard conventions applies to the powerbook capslock key? I've never been able to remap it in the past without the ctrl key being sticky.

Re:Caps to Ctrl mapping!

[bcs_metacon.ca]

Get uControl (google for it) -- it can remap the capslock to any other key without it being sticky, even on an external keyboard. I have a keyboard without Windows keys so I needed to remap my caps lock to Command, but it can do CTRL too. It can also remap the redundant and IMHO useless "enter" key on the Powerbook keyboard.

Automator bot == Marvin the Paranoid Android!!!!

[michaeldot]

April 29 is a good day for both Mac OS X fans and Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy fans: both are being released on the same day.

But has anyone noticed the similarities between the Tiger Automator bot and the movie's Marvin robot?

1. Automator bot
2. Marvin bot

Okay, not identical, but they're not a million light years apart are they?

Either there is a fan in the marketing dept. of the Sirius Cybern^H^H^H^H^H Apple Computer company, or this is just one of the many consequences of living in the ZZ9 plural Z alpha region of the galaxy...

Well, it is official:

[drfreak]

The Powerbook I bought two weeks ago is officialy obsolete. Apple is only offering discounts for people who bought computers before or after today, the announcement date. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment, I went ahead and pre-ordered anyways.

Genetic engineering?

[michaeldot]

Or they could switch to cows.

Re:I'd rather use Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

In response. Yes two weeks was an exagguration. Sorry, I'll try to be more explicit since you are clearly a moron.

My point is that I'm spending $150 dollars every three or four years on Windows. And with Apple, I'm spending a $100 dollars on updates for 10.x every year or year and a half.

With Microsoft I'm getting free SP updates. You made a brilliant point in bringing up Windows ME. Wow, a software product that's five years old. And the references to Win95 were even more brilliant. I don't even think those remarks are worth responding to as you are referring to old software in a completely different economy and thereby making a mockery of your entire arguement and of yourself.

No there was no upgrade from 2000 to XP, but those were products released more than 3 years apart. As for Long Horn, I'm actually quite happy with the delay. I'm getting free service packs instead of wasting $100 on upgrades like you. SP2 for Windows XP and SP1 for Windows Server. Imagine that, actually getting major, supported upgrades without paying $100!

Enjoy throwing away your money :-)

Finder's (hidden) Quit menu entry (Re: Apple envy)

[mah!]

you can make Finder's hidden Quit menu entry (A.K.A. Command-Q) visible again, by turning it on with TinkerTool for example - note that it does not patch nor modify any executable... it's just a setting in the Finder's preference file (which any Unixy person might like to edit in emacs :-)

Calm down about core image...

[Chanc_Gorkon]

Core Image-capable graphics cards include:

* ATI Mobility Radeon 9700
* ATI Radeon 9600 XT, 9800 XT, X800 XT
* nVidia GeForce FX Go 5200
* nVidia GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
* nVidia GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL, 6800 GT DDL

I wonder if this is not a full list. It just says include and not ARE. I think Core Image is important, but not so much so that you should be concerned that Tiger will dog on your system. At least my just over a year old PowerBook has a supported card. They say high performance cards like the 6800's will get an extra boost. I say the jury is still out. I may only have a nVidia GeForce FX Go 5200 in my Powerbook, I am still ordering my upgrade on Friday. With a educational discount (those in or working for College/School), the upgrade is only 69 bucks.

Speaking of Core Data...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a Python application that runs searches against a mysql database. The database is just local to my machine, and mysql is just used as a search tool (I was too lazy to implement the data model and serach logic myself). I was thinking of moving the app to Cocoa (for performance and UI reasons. Will core data enable me to run a "virtual SQL server" inside the app, and run my existing queries against it? 'Cause that'd be way cool...

OT: Sig

[David Gould]

Introducing Microsoft Vacuum 1.0 The first Microsoft product that doesn't suck.

I hear it blows.

Question

[kiljoy001]

Do you have to pay for the upgrade or will it be downloadable ?

Please Mod Parent UP

[Anonymous Coward]

Lets try to present an even and truthful view here, okay?

Re:I have a Kihei Slot-Loading Firewire-less iMac

[Anonymous Coward]

Dang, just what I needed... I have this iMac model. It was the low-end version of the first slot-loading fanless iMacs after revision D. The higher end Kihei models had FW. All iMacs after that had Firewire included.

Since it's the same motherboard as the other FW Kihei iMacs without the Firewire controller, I certainly hope that Tiger will run on it.

The beige G3s had a somewhat different motherboard architecture, it was not just about the USB plugs.

I'll probably buy myself a Mini before the end of the year, but I wanted to sell my iMac to my father and I would like it to be up-to-date.

Re:I'd rather use Windows

[aristotle-dude]

Nice troll coward. How about backing up what you say with an account?

Windows 2000 was released in 2000 and XP was released in 2001. Nice try asswipe. I was a beta tester for XP Pro and I'm a windows developer with an MSDN Universal subscription through work.

Like I said, 10.3.1 through 10.3.9 are all "free". We've had free Service packs for 10.3 since Panther was released October 24,2003. Now we are going to get Tiger on April 29,2005 which is about a year and a half later.

Like I said, nice troll. Jaguar was released August 23, 2002 and they continued releasing "free" service packs up until just before Panther was released.

http://home.comcast.net/~jsflowers/macosx.html
How much does a copy of XP PRO set someone back if they want to upgrade from Windows 95? The price of two OS X updates (10.3 & Tiger) plus some extra ($299 USD). For the price of upgrading from Windows 2000 Pro to XP Pro would be the same as buying a 5 licence pack of Tiger from Apple at $199.00 USD. Upgrading from Mac OS 9 to Tiger only costs 129 USD.

Enjoy throwing your money away as each service pack of windows is slower than the previous one and each "paid" upgrade is slower still. Conversely, each service pack and paid upgrade of OS X is "faster" than it's predecessor. Who's the fool here? I will gladly pay money for a software upgrade that extends the life and usefulness of my hardware.

Reasons why it is amazingly cool...

[kiddailey]

QuickSilver was written by an individual who orignally developed the app for himself and then decided to share it with everyone. I imagine he'll (some day) make it shareware, but it's free till then.

Did you look at the Preview page? It gives a nice, simple explanation of some of the abilities of QS.

But I digress :)

The reason that it isn't described well is because it cannot be easily or simply described.

Instead, let me give you a few details.

• QuickSilver doesn't take up real estate. It sits in the background waiting for commands from you (mostly via the keyboard, but also via the mouse in some instances)
  
  
• You activate QS with a shortcut key, it pops up with a text field.
  
  
• You begin typing the name of the app or doc that you want to manipulate. Or, typing a command to activate a plugin (like '=' to signify you are typing a calculation)
  
  
• When your selection comes up (usually after two letters or so), you can then choose an action to perform on that object. For example: Launch (for apps), Reveal, Rename, e-mail, move to, delete, etc. (there are a ton of actions - you can make things defaults too)
  
  
• Some actions also have further input you can provide (all without moving your mouse and all without having to navigate anywhere or launch other programs).
  
  For example, if I select a document on my desktop, I can pick "e-mail" then select from my address book who to e-mail (just by typing part of their name) and QS will launch mail, start a new e-mail and attach the file I selected. You can even FTP this way too.
  
  
• It is plug-in based, so you can easily add other functionality. There are plug-ins available to even change the look of QS (I prefer the Spotlight style interface that pops up just under the menu bar). There's also plugins to allow you to control iTunes, iChat, Adium and other apps via the keyboard. There's even a weather and calculator plugin.
  
  
• It is adaptive and learns from how you use it - moving things around in the list so that frequently referenced items are selected more quickly.

All that said, you cannot really understand how QuickSilver will improve your OS X experience until you use it. I cannot live without it and often find myself wanting a Windows version as well. Give it a try - it's a drag/drop install and is removed just as easily.

I recommend the plugins: Mail, Clipboard (adds multiple clipboards), iTunes, Flashlight, Dictionary, Address Boook and Calculator. Most of these can be installed automatically when you run the app the first time if you choose.

New Desktop Background!

[EuroChild]

I know this sounds small, petty and down-right stupid, but I got all excited when reading the Tiger features and read this:

Desktop Pictures
Choose from a collection of stunning new desktop pictures, including a vibrant new default desktop created exclusively for Mac OS X Tiger users...

The only desktop image I can use (which looks good AND is practical) are the default ones that ship with apple operating systems. Just look at the stock-standard background that came with panther - it's perfect from a usability point of view. Can't wait to see what the designers came up with for Tiger...

Does anyone else feel this way, or is it just me?

Re:New Desktop Background!

[ivano]

i love the colour swirly ones. They just look..well..gorgeous. Especially on a 20" iMac G5. More the merrier I say

ciao

PS..ahh...so..yes..to answer your question

your sig

[zpok]

I don't know what scares me more, the image of your tiny yellow balls, or the fact that you offer them up to Ballmer as cheap lunch...

Re:your sig

[Anonymous Coward]

I got the sig from a fake article about Nintendo's CEO meeting with Ballmer:

http://www.gamerah.com/noticias.php?bias=180#180

The interview is a riot.

wow, how novel

[zpok]

Apart from some die-hard point release trolling, this whole page manages to be interesting, funny or enlightening.

Mod me redundant if you can ;-)

Automator is Dying

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking of trolling and facts,l can you use the BSD based Mac OSX Automator to automate /. "BSD is <blink>not Dying" posts?

Or would that be considered suicidal?

Sure there is ...

[Anonymous Coward]

With 64 bit, you will survive the year 2038 problem.

Worst Part of Tiger....

[Anonymous Coward]

...Rendezvous is now "Bonjour"

I like Apple, but christ, thats terrible!!

Cool, thanks! :-)

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice app, trying it out now :-)

unless your using internet exploder, of course.

[aclysma]

unless your using internet exploder, of course. And while IE is better than it used to be, I still can't resist to pick on it :)

In OS 11 (Spinal Tap)

[JQuick]

Warning!

Do not create new drum tracks in GarageBand!

I call baloney

[Scudsucker]

Did you see the big list of things that are broken by XP's Service Pack 2? Not even a major update, but just a service pack? And with Apple's os's, as long as you stay within Apple's recomendations when developing, your app should be fine. The only real breaks were with the jump from 68k to PowerPC, and when Apple dumped 6,000 API calls with the release of the first OS X. But in both cases an upgrade path was provided, and plenty of notice given. You only really run into trouble if you try to use undocumented, and thus unsupported, parts of the os.

QuickSilver clone for Gnome

[kiddailey]

I forgot to mention that I recently discovered a clone of QuickSilver specifically for Gnome (though I haven't tried it yet):

http://micke.hallendal.net/gnome-launch-box/