Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Sets Value Of Pirated Windows: $1
nick_davison writes "The BBC is reporting that Microsoft has reached a deal with the Indonesian government on pirated software - which is believed to affect around 50,000 government PCs. Under the deal, Indonesia will pay $1 per copy and agree to buy legally in the future. Indonesia's information minister, Sofyan Djalil, said, "Microsoft is being realistic. They can't force developing countries like us to solely use legal software since we can't afford it. They want us to gradually reduce our use of it." Somehow it seems unlikely the same rules will be applied to developing companies and poorer individuals in the United States."
but they want to keep their customers.
So if they only go after uploaders of software and they set the value at a buck what happens if all the uploaders are in Indonesia
Trolling is a art,
An exchange for Schappelle Corby?
VERITAS VOS LIBERABIT
Let me get this straight... a copy of windows is worth 1$ illegally pirated, but a CD is worth what was that again? $20,000? Someone PLEASE explain that one to me.
That's still more than the average /. user values it at.
Okay, so they are more or less going for people officially being their customers (in a sense), rather that unofficially pirating the same software? It's interesting how piracy does seem to encourage such companies to drastically lower their prices...
see a Text Widget
Not worth it - that's still more than twice what Debian charges.
Uh oh, they're in for a rough ride now... with all those legal copies of Longhorn that they will have to buy.
...include tech support?
...I think that's the realistic price for ANY copy of Windows.
That's at least a dollar more than I paid for it
Twice what it's worth, huh?
I can't want for the rush of emigrants to Indonesia.
.....with that logic, they should strike a deal with Pepsi to distribute XP licenses under Pepsi caps. One in ten wins!
Indonesia could drink their way to legality.
At least we know what the true value of Microsoft Windows is. Although I wouldn't pay more than two bits for it.
Use Linux Luke!
Since when has Microsoft ever gone after individuals for using pirate versions of Windows? Yes, they go after individuals that put it up on file sharing networks, and they use copy protection to make it harder to pirate in the first place, but I've never heard of Microsoft raiding someone's apartment for just using a pirate version of Windows (unless maybe they're running a business out of their apartment, but then MS would be raiding a business not an individual).
Remember the days when Republicans were the party of fiscal responsibility?
Looks like it. I'm pretty sure Indonesia has better things to do then get in tt a pissing contest with Gates.
||| I still can't believe Parkay's not butter.
"Somehow it seems unlikely the same rules will be applied to developing companies and poorer individuals in the United States."
You scream Linux, OpenOffice and not bluff you'll get big discounts. MS is rich because people simply pay up. Start being an *informed* consumer, markets work better that way.
Deleted
So this explains the MS sponsored TCO researches saying Windows is cheaper.
If you mod this up, your slashdot background will turn into a beautiful sunset!
Cool. I just PayPal'd $1 to billg@microsoft.com. I figure we're square now...
I'll turn into a supernova and burn up everything. Well I'll turn into a black little hole and you'll turn into string.
fools! MS would rather PAY YOU to maintain its monopoly and mindshare than have you turn to linux.
Why is Indonesia submitting to Microsoft like this? Are they afraid Microsoft will no longer do business with them? Well, it seems that that doesn't matter. They'll just pirate any necessary software some way or another. What does Indonesia gain from this?
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
...and about as good for you, too.
Seriously, though -- why do people still pirate MS products when you can have the free (better?) alternative operating system, office suite, e-mail client, yadda yadda?
Is this a statement of "joe sixpack" and his relative ignorance of the alternatives or is this more a shot at OSS -- "we'd rather break laws than use your free (no-good) stuff?" The former seems to be a quest for a Linux marketing department. The latter is one for the usability experts to hammer out with the open source coders.
Either way, there's some truth to be revealed in the answer to why people still pirate Microsoft products.
enough said...
Indonesia will become the hub for big time Windows piracy, anyone who holds a pirated copy can claim that they imported it from Indonesia for a $1
Do you know how many hookers you can get for $1.00 in indonesia?
Fuggetaboutet bill!
the only permanence in existence, is the impermanence of existence.
Can this set any precident for the "value" of MSFT software in general? If someone is caught with pirated software, could this overturn the (potential) $150,000 copyright violation because of this precident?
I assume MSFT knows what it's doing (what with their fleet of lawyers).
What if the Indonesian government won't keep its promise? If they did it with 50,000 government computers, I doubt they won't do it again...>_>
Win 3.0/3.1,95a/b,2000....(calc)
I send them five bucks and I'm free!
The Indonesian information minister's statement is ridiculous: "They can't force developing countries like us to solely use legal software since we can't afford it." WTF? Why not? If you can afford Windows, give it a shot. If you can't, try OSS. It'll work. Maybe better, maybe worse. But you sure as hell can be forced to do things legally.
It's not like they're being forced to pay outrageous prices for their sole source of food or something. They have a choice of software, and they choose an expensive, proprietary, non-free one. The shiny, fancy one. Guess what? It costs money.
Let them charge you a percentage of money you save by switching to Windows from your previous operating system...
So, if you save a ton of money switching from Windows Server 2003 to Dos 5.0. Then Dos 5.0 costs $1000. But if you can't save a dime by switching from Windows 2000 to Windows XP. Then they don't get a dime.
Ahhh... now wouldn't that be nice?
Ted Tschopp
Fantasy remains a human right; we make in our measure and in our derivative mode... -- JRR Tolkien
I always like to use free stuff.
GPL - Free as in mine
BSD/X11/MIT - Free as in not closed yet
CDDL - Free as in slave labor
Apache - Free as in complicated
Microsoft - Free as in stolen
Did I miss any?
Tharkban (It is a signature after all)
"Price Discrimination".
So is Microsoft trying to tax those of us who are legal users by saying to the others "Oh its okay, you don't have much money, you poor developing country."? I don't understand how they can justify making this $1 deal while continuing to have higher prices elsewhere. Companies have to realize that in a global economy, you can't play favoritism without hurting some feelings or hurting yourself. Why can't Indonesia do without? It's not like they couldn't use Linux like other governments around the world are doing. Maybe Microsoft has realized this and is trying to get them to be "legal" and continue using their products - heaven forbid they follow others' leading to embrace Linux.
They can't force developing countries like us to solely use legal software since we can't afford it.
By "developing countries" he means 3rd world and poorer than dirt.
According to my tax returns, I'm poorer than dirt. Is MS going to force me into using software I can't afford? Why do THEY get a break when I probably make something comparable to their salary?
Dang, my old Windows 95 disc was worth $10. Well, that's what a CD-R cost back then. ;)
Hello.
I am president Zooma, zooma Bugabee of the People's Republic of Nigeria.
Recently my dear brother died in Indonesia. On his person at the time was fourty-thousand one-dollar bills.
With your help, we plan to buy 40,000 copies of Mircrosoft windows from Mr. Gates, then sell them in the US for millions of dollars!
Act now, while supplies last! There are some small legal details, but we can talk all about that later. Please include checking account information with your reply.
A little more research on google news shows that MS is denying this report.
Look at just about *any* large software company that sells to businesses. Their goal is to get you locked-in to a software package, and then milk as much money as they possibly can from you. The real money to be made is in hidden costs. Sure, Bob the Purchasing Manager *thinks* that he's bought a copy of the software, but in fact he's signed off on spending money on the software package for the next fifteen years until the company is frusterated enough to ante up enough money to jump ship to another package.
And the best tool of all in the software world to squeeze those-money engorged corporate udders is incompatibility -- file formats, APIs and protocols that only *you* can provide. (And user expertise in your software.)
The smart purchaser stays the hell away from any proprietary file formats, APIs and protocols.
The main reason that the open source world is nice for the corporate world is not the up-front price benefits. It's the fact that open source software inherently has non-proprietary file formats, APIs, and protocols, means that a choice of open source software ensures that you can't be milked (well, *too* much) or else someone else will toddle on in and start providing an alternative.
Consider an example: People using Subversion for their source control aren't going to pay a cent for anything in the future. Even if Subversion cost $5000 a seat, instead of being gratis, it would still mean only a one-time payment. People using ClearCase have many years of rich milk-giving ahead of them.
Microsoft lets people use Windows for minimal cost in areas that it wants to enter because it establishes one of the above pillars of lock-in -- it builds user expertise in their software. Any software with a different interface or behavior immediately represents a barrier to change. That retraining has a cost, that cost can have a dollar value assigned to it, and that dollar value is exactly how much Microsoft can milk you for in the future.
Microsoft's most-used mechanism to help *spread* lock-in is not contracts or dirty legal tactics, but bundling. Get one element of lock-in into play (say, file formats, with Windows binary compatibility), and use it to get Windows deployed, then try to use that to get people to use another element of Windows that can provide its own lock-in benefits. The economic potential, the amount of money that Microsoft can milk users for, increases with every increment of lock-in.
Microsoft didn't give away Internet Explorer for free because they love you and like petting kitties and giving candy to babies. They did it because (a) it builds user expertise in a feature of their software that then is difficult to move away from, increasing lock-in, (b) enough use of Internet Explorer results in network-spanning lock-in as people start dabbling in things like ActiveX, which are a big milk-producing mechanism for Microsoft, and (c) it provides another, significant, platform to use to introduce file format and protocol incompatibility, and thus further milk-producing lock-in. Internet Explorer is an *investment* in producing economic potential, lock-in, which they can cash in for loads of money over time in the future.
Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
end rant
WHY does M$ needs $50k from Indonesia? Maybe they could donate the windows copies to the Tsunami Relief efforts...
How stupid are slashdot readers?!
$1 is for each pirated copy the government declares so far. After that, the government stops pirating, and starts paying money! Thats right - for having an initial amnesty to get the ball rolling, Microsoft gets another lucrative government IT contract.
Hey, nothing a little fair market reforms can't handle, all in the spirit of true capitalism, no?
....
Wonder how much I can get for all those hundreds of AOL CDs I use for coasters
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
...I went to Indonesia and bought a legal version of Windows and brought it back here, would it still be legal? That means if I bought several hundred licenses there I could resell them here for a nice profit :D
Cheers,
RoadkillBunny
Honestly? That's it. You've never wondered why MS showers game developers with praise, runs cons, and reacts?
It's games. Why does my mom not want me to get her a mac? Her favorite games will become a PITA to run.
..don't panic
Who in their right mind would pirate windows anyway? That would indicate that the product is actually worth something. But then again...that's mindless Freddy for you... ...you know - the idiot neighbour that wants to
have everything you have to make him seem smart and in the know.
It's like living in the Matrix - The makers of that
movie where actually onto something - there IS life outside the window.
What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Can i get a refund?
Microsoft's gonna have to pry $3 out of my cold-dead hands.
They simply priced it at cost instead of retail :(
A dollar a day keeps the lawyers away!
Physicist, consultant, science communicator
Essentially 50,000 pirated copies of windows are worth $50,000 more than 50,000 real copies of windows.
This makes the punitive side of the damages pretty low, but the scale of this settlement means very little for casual pirates.
You could get about 10% of one if the going rate is still 10 dollar suckie suckie.
The days of the digital watch are numbered.
But you sure as hell can be forced to do things legally.
Well I could take the part of the last free man and say, you can't be forced to do anything, but you can be punished if you don't do what the man says. But let's just say, in this case, what Indonesian judge and jury do you think would allow Microsoft to win a judgement?
I'd wager that MS reached this deal with the government simply because second- and third-world countries are far more open to the cost appeal of F/OSS than developed countries. That's why MS wouldn't dare attempt to crack down on poorer governments; they'd almost instantly lose entire nations to Linux.
First-world countries with their largely capitalist governments and reasonably well-to-do citizens, on the other hand, are not nearly as open, and are often more willing to use COTS software than F/OSS. That's why MS wouldn't dare entertain extending the same grace to the poor of first-world countries.
It must be Windows. It needs half a gig of RAM and a hardware-accelerated graphics card just to run Solitaire.
The real question is how the government of a country too poor to pay for Windows got 50000 PCs.
500GB of disk, 5TB of transfer, $5.95/mo
Now granted, someone that owns a PC generally seems like they'd be someone that can afford an OS. But thats not the case alot of times. I mean you go into any place that sells software, and you STILL see Windows Xp Home at the $80 mark or more. Often or not it's still $100 in most big chain stores like Best Buy.
I know plenty of people who have small, self built PC's they've built slowly over time. Just like some people put together a decent car by buying the core parts seperately. Or better yet I know people whom have been given an average PC that you normally see in mom & pop type stores, as a gift. These PC's are monsters in terms of hardware or specs, they probably run the basics like Office and IE. Parents buy these all the time for kids, the bare essentials for doing homework and studying (of course kids use them for IM's online and games)
Case in point is M$ will never show love to poor people. If you're still in school (before or during college) you're more than likely going to need a PC. Sure most schools offer campus use of their PC's but often it's under their timetables, under their rules, which not everyone can meet. When an OS costs almost 1/3 of what you paid for a simple PC to use Office or to browse the Internet (with dial up mind you, most often), it's obvious it costs too much.
Some will say "but you can use something older like Windows 2000 or 98". Sure, you can. Check the date lately? Official support for 2k runs out soon, and 98's + 95's has been out for a while. What happens when a critical flaw is found after support has been cut off? Hope that Symantec or some other company might be kind enough to patch the OS itself even though they are virus scanning providers not the OS makers? It's not a HUGE deal now but as more and more flaws + crippling virii come out each year (MS Blast anyone?..) it's a matter of time before that family of 5 living in a small apartment have to pirate XP or Longhorn to simply guarantee their computer is safe so use.
This is why M$ has a damn monopoly. Sure you can choose a cheaper OS, hell some are even free. But then you lose support for A), most major software titles or games that are not ported to your non-Windows OS, and B) you have to spend time learning a new OS that's not support alot. Example, imagine a family buys one of these low end PC's for their kids, and manages to find a real affordable broadband provider. Since they can't afford to shell out $100+ for Windows XP Home they get a copy of some Linux distro. At some point their broadband cuts out so they call tech support. Tech support says "Oh we're sorry we can't help you, you aren't running Windows". Or you take it into a shop to get something fixed, say the disk drive goes out. Alot of mom & pop repair places don't do Linux OS'ed PC's, at least not here locally. You might be fine at some big place like Best Buy but then you're stuck paying outrageous prices for a 5 minute drive switch.
You can see how the list goes on. In the end the poor get shafted, so yes we do pirate. Not because we can, or because we are cheap, because we simply cannot afford it and in alot of cases it's nessicary.
Aw Frell this
Ok so $1 per copy of Windows.
Now say a pirate is legaly charged with distributing that many copies, can he say well you charged them $1 and on their word not to pirate so how about you give me the same deal.
- MOSKIE
Its just a matter of time before we see a "reseller program" from Indonesia for Microsoft software. I wonder if anyone has thought about a startup reseller/wholesale business in Indonesia for a few month's then sell the products internationally for what it's worth $1 and pay shipping prices ($5 - $50; depending your location). AD: "Get your Windows XP or M$ products for only a buck, you pay just for shipping! Its legal and fast!". ~ This idea wouldn't surprise me.
What? MS wants them to reduce their use of legal software?
Foreign aid from countries like Australia who give them billions in the hope they won't invade us.
Nice to see they extended the offer.
On the other hand, we could argue as to what is the value of a legitimate copy.
Somehow it seems unlikely the same rules will be applied to developing companies and poorer individuals in the United States.
/. hypocrisy.
/. opinion was that Microsoft sucks and that everyone should run the superior Linux. But all of a sudden, Microsoft should be giving poor people their software, because... it's so great?? Sounds to me like another reason to use open source.
Typical
Would the beloved Apple give heavy discounts to poor people?
Even worse, I thought the prevailing
"Let me get this straight... a copy of windows is worth 1$ illegally pirated, but a CD is worth what was that again? $20,000? Someone PLEASE explain that one to me."
1) Fines paid to RIAA members were by people distributing music illegally, whereas the Indonesian govt. was just using illegal software.
2) A dollar goes a lot farther in Indonesia, so $1 for them means a lot more than it does for a US citizen.
3) MS sees the Indonesian govt. as someone they can work with, so they're compromising, whereas RIAA members see no advantage in showing mercy to people ditributing their music illegally.
Vote for Pedro
Free software has these advantages for Indonesia:
It's the lack of freedoms which has gained them the $50,000 fee, which could have paid five good salaries for a year. Why they would PAY MORE TO HAVE LESS is a mystery. The future cost of supplying their workers with Winblows will be much more if the officials who agreed to this humiliation stay bought.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Nonsense.
Thieves in Indonesia remain theives.
It's ludicrous for an Indonesian government minister to justify theft on the grounds that the government can't afford to buy Windows. How did they pay for the hardware the stuff runs on? Or, did they steal that, too?
Smacks of a con to me.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
In Soviet Russia, M$ pays you for pirated software!
One dollar?
-- it's ridiculous how many people misspell ridiculous... (damn, damn, damn...)
$1 each? I'M RICH!
* Most corporations are corrupt ...
* All governments are corrupt
* Individuals are powerless when the two get together, unless they get together, too
* Resistance is not futile, but is bloody
* You will be assimilated quicker if you buy Nikes, eat at McD's, use MS products
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
It's not about the money. The vast majority of Indonesians take pirated software for granted, and have no real desire or need to buy original.
;)
Several years ago Microsoft Indonesia sued cmoputer stores who install (pirated) Windows onto newly built systems. They claim damage of several billions rupiah, enough to make any local computer store to go out of business. Last time I was in Jakarta, all those stores sued are still in business. In one news article, the defendant's lawyer asked the judge whether he has a PC at home, and whether his copy of Windows is legal
About two years ago a supposedly tough copyright legislation was passed, but there is simply no real enforcement in Indonesia, people still sell and buy openly. There is no "incentive" to buy originals. Even if there is enforcement, most individuals can't afford originals.
Indonesia invading australia..... right....
*does finger to temple twirly motion*
This is another country you are talking about. This is a sovereign conuntry. Your law need not apply here. You want to force them to cooperate? You can use diplomacy, or you can invade.
How about I rob a bank and buy myself a Ferrari? I won't get in trouble will I? After all, they can't expect a poor guy like me to have enough money to buy one of those right away. I'll just have to save my money and eventually be able to buy one legally.
The Indonesians are a law unto themselves. You put your life at their "mercy" when you choose to travel there. You have to prove your innocence, rather than the prosecution proving your guilt, but the judge can dismiss your defence evidence without reason. What chance do you have? What a crap legal system. Only mad people will visit there in future. But then if they feel like flaunting copyright, they just claim the "developing country" defence. Bah. That place sucks.
She's not even american. Why on earth would microsoft care? What happened to her is no less tragic then what happens to anyone else caught smuggling weed into that country. But since she's hot, well, lets get all upset about it!!!!!11
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
"Somehow it seems unlikely the same rules will be applied to developing companies and poorer individuals in the United States."
There's no way I should pay more for a product because I make more than someone else. I hope it's illegal in the US to do this.
Vote for Pedro
Go down to your local OfficeDepot and pretend you are going to purchase a build-to-order PC or laptop. They only come with Windows so you have to pay for it so it must be selected. When you generate the partlist and pricing, you'll see "Microsoft Windows XP Home" with $1 in the price field.
Interesting that Microsoft Works/Money is listed as $10. That too is not optional.
Next thing you know, Microsofts operating systems will be FREE. Don't hold your breath. This is more smoke and mirrors and probably aimed at those who want to take advantage of the refunds for unused software.
Shouldn't this be considered dumping?
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination Price Discrimination: A feature of monopolies.
And her exact words (after a five minute rant about how the guy was an asshole) were, and I quote:
"Damnit this is awful. But it sounds about right. After that damned Suharto ran off with $30 billion dollars, there was no way in hell we could ever afford to pay for anything. But still, better for him to steal it than Microsoft."
I went to Latvia in December and many people use pirated software for everything at home. It's basically because they barely make a percentage of our salaries. They only use official versions in workplaces. IT's also because they know (correctly) that there's nobody to come after them.
~Ilyanep
To get message, take amount of carrier pigeons at each stage mod 2. Then decode binary.
Least Value possible (From the company's):
Microsoft's Windows=$1
Many Linux Distro's=$0
Sun's Solaris=$0
Apple's Mac OS X=$129
Now Apple needs to lower the prices!
Why should microsoft let people get rich off their back for free? If you're a cheapskate, use Linux. As far as "poor people" are consourned, I don't think they're really going after individuals. Having a program for people would be nice, though.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
governments are the law
the indonesian government chose to use "pirated" software
therefore, the "pirated software" isn't illegal
how's this different from nationalizing any other resource? (eminent domain?)
Microsoft admits the true value of Windows.
And Visual Studio = $300
and
and...
Namaste
"Microsoft is being realistic. They can't force developing countries like us to solely use legal software since we can't afford it. They want us to gradually reduce our use of it."
.. hey.. I can't afford a new car. Mine is breaking down all the time, I have a family of five.. but I doubt anyone would have pity on me if I went out and stole a car from a manufacturer.
I wonder how many people this would work for if they didn't pay their taxes to their government? What if they citizens sent them a letter stating that they can't force them to send them money since they can't afford to pay it. That has to be the most idiotic statement I have ever read. Of course it is great in their eyes. If they want software that doesn't cost money they should switch to a free OS and not pirate copies since they "can't afford it"
The Technomancer
"Men of lofty genius when they are doing the least work are most active."-
The $20,000 is part of the punishment for stealing the CD. It's not like with every theft the only legal consequence is returning the stolen items; you have to give what you took, and then some, so that you won't do it again.
Its Rs50 in Pakistan. The poorest people there make Rs50 in a MONTH. Would you pay your monthly salary for microsoft?
OK so they cant afford a computer or power lines either, but a dollar is definitely more than Lunch. More like breakfast+lunch+dinner of a day, more so if you cook at home.
Its a dollar more than what they'd have to pay for other OSes out there. They'd rather save up spend the money on the very expensive hardware.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
Translate with http://babelfish.altavista.com/ or similar.
Dedicated Linux servers (root access) $45 p.M.
"Microsoft is being realistic. They can't force developing countries like us to solely use legal software since we can't afford it. They want us to gradually reduce our use of it."
Is this guy serious? He's supposed to be an information minister and yet he deosn't know the pure basics of life??? If you can't afford something - tough shit. Hell, I can't afford a Ferrari, does that mean I can go out and steal one?
Mister Sofyan Djalil you had a choise. To either pay for the product and use it, or don't pay for it and use something else that you can afford.
Eh,... It's just too stupid to write something.
But I guess there is a good lesson for Indian kids here: "If you can't afford something, steal it and pay for it when you can".
These tech companies' strategies for international business are pretty much all corrupt.. Nearly any company you can think of sells their products at higher prices abroad.. Why? Because in most developing countries, the gap between the wealthy and the poor are much greater than those in developed nations. So much that the wealthy who can afford a product at $200 can also easily pay $400 for it as well, whereas the people that can't afford the product won't be able to afford it unless you price it symbolically at $1...
So Microsoft doesn't lose either way, they maintain their monopoly and still make nearly normal amount of profit.
Pay no attention to what the critics say. Remember, a statue has never been set up in honor of a critic! - Jean Sibelius
Do you spend money on hot pizza?
Do you ever go out for a steak?
If you are so self-sacrificial, then WHY ARE YOU EATING???
I'm so sick of that Christian altruistic crap.
Mine is Good
They couldnt give *me* a $1 to use it...
MacOSX + Intel = trouble for M$ST.
Phredd - "I have found people tend to take you far less seriously once you start waving your genitals at them..."
I'd be happy to buy a $1 x86 version of OSX... or even a $50 version.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Just because they are poor, that gives them the right to pirate and only have to pay one dollar for a full copy of windows. Well when longhorn comes out, I will be the first to pirate and put my 1 buck aside when bill asks for it. It will be here and waiting.
.. that's right, there are tons of Linux distros all over the net for free. It only costs your time to download. Linux is a much more stable and secure OS anyway.
"Somehow it seems unlikely the same rules will be applied to developing companies and poorer individuals in the United States." Small Business Server, Adademic and OEM licensing, and Home Editions are all geared toward developing companies or poorer individuals.
Where can I get Windows XP Pro for $1?
"Microsoft is being realistic. They can't force developing countries like us to solely use legal software since we can't afford it. They want us to gradually reduce our use of it."
So under the agreement they are paying a dollar now and will buy legally in the future.
Why do I have trouble believing a country that is paying a dollar per copy of 2000/XP is going to be able to afford the real price for their next upgrade when they just stated they can't afford legal software?
"Microsoft is being realistic. They can't force developing countries like us to solely use legal software since we can't afford it. Rather than focusing solely on Microsoft's evil behavour here, what about the Indonesian government? I mean come on, sure you can't stop piracy across the entire nation but you'd think they would have enough control and moral understanding to stop piracy within their own government. What kind of example does that set for their people and other nations? 'Sorry, I can't afford those golden plated bath tubs you sent me, I just keep them and not pay you' The world does not work like that, and as one poster mentioned, if you want the luxury (and of course the luxury of MS is debatable) you have to pay for it. It seems incredibly childish and lazy to just throw you hands up and say there is no other option. Sure there is. USE PAPER if you can't afford more expensive information systems. The only other thing to consider is the fact that MS would most certainly prefer keeping 50,000 machines from the saving grip of linux at any cost. That doesn't excuse the moral low-grown the Indonesian Minister has taken. In a market driven world there is always a next best alternative.
New Workstation, $450. MS Windows, $1. Reformatting 50,000 PC once a year, priceless.
Hmmm... Let's try that line of reasoning in some other situations, shall we?
(Robber/rapist/murderer let off with a $1 fine per offence) "The D.A. is being realistic. They can't force people who grew up under less-than-optimal circumstances to abide by the same moral code as the general populace since we didn't have any good role models. They want us to gradually reduce the amount of pillaging we do."
(Paris Hilton-esque spoiled rich kid gets caught making amateur porn; the world says 'tsk, tsk, tsk' and moves along) "The media is being realistic. They can't force people who grew up in circumstances so obscenely privileged as to defy description to abide by the same moral code as the general populace, else since we didn't have any good role models (We grew up in boarding schools in Europe, so we haven't a clue how our parents behaved, except when they wound up in the media themselves...) They want us to gradually reduce the amount of crap we fling at everyone we don't consider our social equals.
(Movie actor/professional athlete slapped on the wrist for some outrageous behavior that would wind most people up in jail for 30 days) The courts are being realistic. They can't force us to abide by the same moral code as the general populace because we rise above mere morals in our efforts to entertain the masses. We're simply too important and aloof to be bothered by morality and ethics. They want us to gradually reduce the number of hotel employees we bean with telephones when we're having a temper tantrum.
I was going to do politicians and sexual immorality/fraud next, but I'm getting nauseous...
This has been a test. If this had been an actual Sig, you would have been amused.
This is about software dude, not oil. Microsoft doesn't have the lobby to start wars. Yet.
I've been to Indonesia briefly. If I remember correctly, one dollar translates to about 10,000 Rupies, which will buy you a pretty good meal just about anywhere, or an unreliable CD containing mp3s of every Bob Marley song ever recorded, or 10 packs of ramen (ramen costs the same everywhere in the world), or about 5 or 10 angkot rides, or more biskuat than you can eat in one sitting. I stayed a few days in a hotel in Batu Karas for about about $4-$5 a night for a room shared with a couple friends. You can buy antibiotics for about a dollar or so I believe.
I didn't see many computers there, so I don't know if Linux is very well established, but no one cares about piracy over there. The percieved cost of windows is about the same as the percieved cost of Linux: whatever it costs to get a burned copy from a street vendor. "Joe sixpack" is unlikely to own a computer (though TVs are very common), but if he does, he'll probably use whatever everyone else is using, which is probably Windows.
"They can't force developing countries like us to solely use legal software since we can't afford it. They want us to gradually reduce our use of it."
Gradually reduce the use of legal software? Or just Micros~1 software?
I'm looking over the wall, and they're looking at me!
I know its not that cut and dried, but sheesh...
This has been a test. If this had been an actual Sig, you would have been amused.
Microsoft Sets Value Of Pi
Well I thought it was funny...
By using my minimal intelligence, I have calculated that the $50,000 cost (50k x $1) would be roughly $30,000 less then a single pirated copy in the US and about $49,999.78 more then the actual value of the 50k copies themselves. Talk about a price mark up!
(no offense to the windows users, it was a poor attempt at being funny)
So... Micrsoft want Indonesia to reduce their use of legal software?
Windows is now a 64 bit tweak of a 32 bit extension to a 16 bit user interface for an 8 bit operating system based on a 4 bit architecture from a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition.
--No idea who originally coined this
I don't know why Americans always talk about "legal" copies of Windows, music, and so on, like it's some universal absolute. Legal depends on the jurisdiction, and there are at least 200 countries that are not the United States.
If Indonesia decides that copying Windows is legal, then it's legal there.
He who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.
Assuming your are geniumely asking this question...
.dan.
The answer goes:
US$1 = a tip at a bar, or a cup of Soda in the States.
US$1 = 1 hours wage, or a full dinner in Indonesia.
So while $1=$1 , 1 soda 1 dinner.
What exchange rates mean is that Western tourists will find things "cheap" (they can buy more things with less $ than at home) and the locals will see the Westerners as "rich" (The amount of cash dropped on a two week holiday could probably have paid off their entire mortgage)
Exchange rates DO NOT equalize any of these imbalances. Although some Communist countries tried to manipulate them in that way many years back.
Those so poor they can afford a $500 PC
Oh, my heart bleeds.
Do USAians actually understand what poverty means? A huge number (I don't have the figures to hand) earn less than USD10 per month.
In fact, the Make Poverty History have a poster (which unfortunately does not appear to be online) quoting a statistic that a London (UK) parking meter earns more in an hour than something like 75% of the world's population earns in a month.
Please, the http://www.makepovertyhistory.org/ campaign, put this stuff up on the web, not just on dead trees!
We do realise that the G8 summit is upon us, and that huge international protests against international poverty are due to coincide with it? ... Don't we?
Or is this just some sheltered young white well-to-do middle-class ... oh, just remembered where I am.
Go, Dubya!
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
If Indonesia is paying just $1, who's paying the rest?
American taxpayers?
MIB?
Echelon?
http://www.indexmundi.com/indonesia/gdp.html
And as Bill Gates's personal wealth is esitmated at $46.5 billion
http://www.marxist.com/scienceandtech/bill_gates_c apitalism.htm
And Ballmer's worth is $12 billion
http://www.guardian.co.uk/microsoft/Story/0,2763,1 046102,00.html
And Paul Allen is worth $20.5 billion
http://www.guardian.co.uk/microsoft/Story/0,2763,1 046102,00.html
you have the top three at Microsoft worth approximate 9% of the entire Indonesian GDP. And Microsoft is pissed, i.e., the greedy plutocrats and lawyers who run Microsoft are pissed, that a nation where the average wage slave makes about $80 - $100 a month
http://countrystudies.us/indonesia/63.htm
has found that it makes economic sense to pirate an OS that costs more than an average month's wages?
Geee - poor babies. Greedy motherfuckers. Almost as evil as the slime moulds who run Indonesia...
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
All the Microsoft software installed on a PeeCee is worth about $1. I think Microsoft should pay me to use Windows.
Your Average Joe
slightly less than three times the size of Texas
Sorry, off-topic, but ever wonder if these people have like a nice chart/spreadsheet where they just find the intersection of two values and it tells them the comparative size?
"Let's see, I figure the area to be about such and such size, and that lines up with two New Jerseys, or one blah blah blah..."
Oh, wait, I think I found it.
Everything I need to know about copyrights I learned from Slashdot.
No...they won't. Why on earth should they?
If I spend 1 hour and $10 to make a widget, and my break-even point with other expenses is $15 so I charge $20 each.
The current economic conditions of the purchaser have no bearing on my finances.
On second thought, you know what, you are right! We should just toss out the free market and have the government issue copies of Microsoft's software to each citizen!
Your comment would hold water if there'd be a functional free market with real existing competition and educated consumers.
You're forgetting about Windows Server 2003 Computer Cluster Edition.
And here's what I wrote about it (it's in my hardback journal I carry with me):
"You can take a blow-up doll and use her at the intended size. But you cannot keep pumping air into her and expect to get a bigger, working blow-up doll unless she was designed to achieve those proportions."
...where they are the government and get to set the rules in their own country. Of course, there are always trade embargos et al but those are orthogonal to the main point, which is that They Are A Sovereign Nation.
Indonesia's information minister, Sofyan Djalil, said, "Microsoft is being realistic. They can't force developing countries like us to solely use legal software since we can't afford it. They want us to gradually reduce our use of it."
So it's okay to pirate software if you can't afford it? Oh hey, I can't afford the normal license price for Adobe Premier Pro, should I go ahead and pirate it? Bottom line is, if they can't afford MS's products, they should look at the other, legal alternatives; for example, OpenOffice, *nix, etc. Not being able to afford something doesn't mean it entitles you to illegally obtain it otherwise, or similarly.
Debugging? Klingons do not debug. Bugs are good for building character in the user.
Let me tell you, $.75 meals are the best.
According to Democritus (circa 300BC), a thing is worth whatever someone is prepared to pay for it.
I also think $1 for an old copy of Windoze is fair.
Oh well, what the hell...
* Some corporations are corrupt, most just want to earn money. If you don't like that, too bad.
* All governments are inept, After all if those folks could get a real job, they wouldn't be in government...
* huh?
* Resistance to conformity is your own fault.
* You will be assimilated quicker if you buy Nikes, eat at McD's, use MS products ... I guess I am unassimilated then. I feel fine, thanks for asking.
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
They can't force developing countries like us to solely use legal software since we can't afford it. They want us to gradually reduce our use of it.
Microsoft wants you to gradually reduce your use of legal software?
Someone needs to kick this editor.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Errr, that first line should say "that makes piracy illegal"
Dude, you've got it backwards and sideways... That was Apple until a couple days ago/until 1 year from now...
Gravity Sucks
Isn't it a violation of the World Trade organization argreements to sell a product in a foreign market for less than the price in the domestic market? Isn't that the definition of anti-competitive dumping?
And Microsoft hopes this will cement their position in the indonesian government.
But what I hope the Indonesian people will remember is that for a while, Microsoft loomed above them with its might.
Do the Indonesian people really want a foreign economic power like Microsoft to do that to them?
Even worse, Microsoft is closed-source! That is a security risk.
When Microsoft "share code", they require you cede rights to view it.
This is clearly untenable for any people.
Good luck, Indonesia.
I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
The backward monkeys which inhabit this wasteland can send you to trial and convict you with anywhere from 20 years to death, with NO EVIDENCE AT ALL.
Recently an Australian girl became the victim of a drug smuggling racket, which had some piece-of-shit airport baggage handlers placing drugs into innocent peoples bags, using the people as "mules" who would unknowingly take the fall if the drugs did not make it through customs.
When this girl arrived at Bali, she was asked to open a compartment of her boogie board bag, which she gladdly did, only to be hit with the shock that 4.1kgs of marijauna had been placed inside without her knowledge. These corrupt stupid monkeys did not and refused to fingerprint the plastic bag containing the drugs (which could have supported her story) and the Bali airport also refused to provide security camera footage which would have shown that she did indeed open the bag eagerly without any stress, contrary to the corrupt monkey customs claims.
Indonesia is a corrupt police nation, which feins democracy but kills it's own nationals at rallies etc. The corruption runs from citizens all the way to the top. The customs officers and police involved in this recent case, are known drug dealers for example. How could thier word be trusted in a court of law? The courts are also well known to be corrupt of couse.
Beware travell to this part of the World! You might happily step off the aircraft, eager for some sun and fun, and then spend the next 20 years in a filthy prison cell, being denied many of your human rights. Then again, you could get the easier way out, and take a barrage of 7.62mm fire for doing nothing more than deciding to spend some of your time and money with these horrible little monkeys.
It does not surprise me that there are 50,000 pirated copies of Windows in use in Indonesian government. They are corrupt and why would they give money to rich Americans when they don't even uphold basic human rights to citizens or tourists?
Come on US, UK and AU! If Iraq desrved what it is getting, then this nation is in desperate need of a carpet bombing.
BTW, many of you may remember the Bali bombing, in which many American, British and Australians were killed for no good reason. The master mind behind it all received........ 2.5 years prison. Bring drugs into the country on the other hand and receive 20 years to death. Are these intelligent people? Or stupid monkeys?
In fairness, the Indonesians are welcoming. Just don't bring your children!
Please warn everyone you know, of the extreme dangers of this "holiday" location.
"They can't force developing countries like us to solely use legal software since we can't afford it. They want us to gradually reduce our use of it."
...
Who would have thought it: Microsoft wants them to slowly reduce their use of "legit" Microsoft software
.. I'll pay $1 for windows. Sounds fair to me. Were do i sign up?
---- "Excuse me. Where's the children's gun section?"
"Microsoft is being realistic. They can't force developing countries like us to solely use legal software since we can't afford it."
They also can't force poor people like me to solely use legal software, since I can't afford it...
Find coupons in Greeley
Why is it that I have to compete on a global market labor-rate-wise, yet they don't have to pay global rates for software? You can't have it both ways, guys. If you stab my job with your $4/hr labor rates, then we get to stab you with $200 software.
If you go global, then do it fair.
Table-ized A.I.
I guess I don't understand, why is it illegal for Indonesian to pirate software? Doesn't the govt make the law? So who's "law" is the Indonesian govt violating?
Oh the law of Microsoft...
How does Microsoft take the Indonesian govt to court?
-=Linsys=-
http://www.intrusionsec.com
Not all Aussies are bigoted hypocrites. The same system, (in fact the same court and prosecuter) put the "bali bombers" to death, back then Aussies were slapping them on the back and saying "good job".
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
The linux/BSD movement is there in indonesia and its getting stronger. The problem is indonesian goverment never listen to informal institution like this. With 200 million population and fast growing internet users, it really worried MS if this country has strong linux community, same as US worry if some country become a communist.
Linux == Communist.
In a romantic way the Indonesian government apparently allows steeling from the rich and giving to the poor. On certain terms I'd actually agree to it.
But the Indonesian government commits and condones theft while alternatives are at hand. Hell, they can install almost any Linux distro and have all the tools they need to administer their country readily installed.
Such a government does not deserve any respect whatsoever.
I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
Is this not dumping stock and as such illegal under anti-trust law?
After all they are saying that $97 (or whatever it is) for windows xp home is the market rate and here they are flooding the market to keep their market share.
>> "Microsoft is being realistic. They can't force developing countries like us to solely use legal software since we can't afford it."
Microsft is being monopolistic. They want to extend their monopol and are even capable of paying (now) so that someone uses Windows. Later they will get their money x10 back
-- Which most of you should already know, btw.
" Somehow it seems unlikely the same rules will be applied to developing companies and poorer individuals in the United States."
:-) ;)
Of course not, when you're poor in the States it's your own fault. It's the land of the free and opportunities. If you don't take the opportunities given, you're just plain stupid and should not have begun a business in the first place.
It's surprising how many people would agree to this while not understanding it's meant sarcastic... hence this disclaimer
MS Windows OS itself cannot do much. This is not a good legal solution. Many pirated softwares include applications. What good is it for legal $1 OS, if all your applications are still illegal copies?
I use linux at home for all my personal computing needs (financing, banking, shopping, addressbook, calendaring, communication, word processing, video editing, audio/graphics processing, TV viewing, etc.)
The only things that kept me from removing Windows partition were game and educational software. Now educational software can run beautifully under the latest qemu emulator.
I removed Windows XP that came with my laptop and installed Windows 98 emulated under qemu, with much smaller footprint, sitting in a linux partition as a file. It boots, networks with linux samba server (so I keep all my data files and even application binaries in linux partition), and does all the Windows tricks, inside linux. I actually checked with a Microsoft representative and it is legal to run Windows 98 for the same machine that you have Windows XP license. I still paid Microsoft and the educational software manufacturer my dues, so it would not interfere with their business. I no longer worry about crashes (I keep backup of windows 98 image, and just one command restores it in minutes!) Besides, I don't test install new softwares or play around with tweaking Windows, so it pretty much is a static image, and all changes are saved through samba to network drives in linux partition.
The only remaining softwares are games. Game consoles are okay, but I can't part with real-time simulations like Red Alert 2, which tend to still reign in PCs. If only they had linux version. I really enjoyed Quake II in linux, but I need more native games, especially in real-time simulations, with reasonable price. I don't mind paying for game software, since these days older ones go for $20 or so and they are still fun to play, much cheaper than 3 people going to a movie.
For home use, linux is perfect. I mean, average people don't need expensive specialized softwares. I get by with all open source softwares, but I still plunk my money in games and educational software.
I think open source should be for software that benefits large percentage of users, and commercial software for specialized uses that are costly to make.
I also think it's about time more commercial game and educational software appear in linux. Open source is okay for many applications, but games and education needs more than just programming, like artistic design or educational consultant, which cost money. Artists and educators should get paid their dues too.
I was wondering if this isn't a good thing. Finally some corporate has forced the Indonesian Govt to admit to being crooks. Although I agree completely with many of the posters here, that the preposterous statement attempting to justify the use of priated software is rediculous, I can also see that as long as their Govt. continues to make statements like this, they are shooting themselves in the foot.
After all these years of computer development, there is only one commercial PC operating system around (please note the word 'commercial'). Microsoft is a monopoly, and as a result of this, MS owners are the richest people in the world, with incomes that are greater many countries' budgets.
...piracy.
Then comes MS (if the report is not a fake!) and charges Windows for $1 in a very poor country that was recently hit by one of the greatest disasters in history, in order to fight
In other words, BillG and Co want more money. They are not satisfied from being the richest guys ever. They are so greedy, that any piracy of Windows seems like an act of heroism! it's not exactly like these guys will starve to death if Windows is copied around. They must be ashamed for this move, and also because they try to buy people out of using open source software.
In an attempt to compete with free operating systems such as Linux, Microsoft has revalued all versions of Windows to $2
I wouldn't surprise about M$ taking legal actions against Indonesian government in case of that country tried to migrate into free software instead of accepting pay $1 for each "pirate" (i don't think they actually were attacking ships...) copy of M$ systems. Maybe that's the reason because of they don't change their mind about what kind of software to use in their public administration... just a personal opinion.
Thaannk you. Welcome to the treadmill, asshole!
Well, it depends on how you count. Another site http://www.dbresearch.com/servlet/reweb2.ReWEB?rwk ey=u806 sets it at US$219 billion, which comes out at about $1000 per person, which sounds about right to me. The CIA figure uses purchasing power parity, which is often a better measure but somewhat arbitrary. Also, the wealth is much more unequally distributed in Indonesia (top 20% of population account for over 40% of expenditure) than in many other economies. A lot of the money comes from mining and oil sectors, which tend not to diffuse money to local communities, but benefit shareholders in the big cities and overseas.
The subject who is truly loyal to the Chief Magistrate will neither advise nor submit to arbitrary measures (Junius)
Given that, I doubt most people will still use pirate windows CD. 1. for most developing nations, pirated windows is much easier to get, everywhere. Can M$ match that? 2. "I'd prefer trusting pirate windows cracker than M$, who knows if there's anything M$ use to track me."
to say m$ cant make them couse there poor is well crazy. thers always linux guys yes it may be eveil to run linux in m$s mind but if your so dam poor its free as in hears your cd now leave me alone. and to call linux unfrendly is outdated. distros like mandrake are very easy and most of the time work out of the box unless your running some strange hardware. but windowsi s abought the same when it comes to strage setups to.
Well for start I'm Indonesian!
SAYA ORANG INDONESIA!
Can anyone ask why there is so many MERCEDES and BMW and so many EXPENSIVE TOYOTA, HONDA etc. run around Indonesian highly traffic jammed road while The Minister (whose in fact driving the NEWEST VOLVO) plea that they can't afford it ?
RUBBISH!!! Indonesian culturely corrupt in moral, they corrupt in Indonesia, they corrupt the goverment, they corrupt the peoples, they corrupt everything, so they corrupt Microsoft and all the US made Software!
That is the FACT, don't bullsh1t to say "WE CAN'T AFFORD IT", that is NON SENSE and BULL SH1T!
Microsoft and all Software Companies why do you all so stupid ? JUST SUE THEM via WTO or make US GOVERMENT to PRESSURE Indonesia TO BE SERIOUS in PIRACY ACT!
I'm inform you, that not only in Indonesia Illegal (pirated) Software traded freely daily at even mall, but also Games, DVD Movies, CD Songs, MP3s, EVERYTHING!!!! You can get ILLEGAL STUFF EASY IN INDONESIA!!!
-Evie-
For some details about weapons deals between the west and Indonesia, read "Hidden Agendas" by John Pilger. Or read about the invasion of East Timor by Indonesia and the massacre of its people.
I know...I so poor I use saran wrap as condom...Microsoft bad...
Sounds more like she's a Chinese girl from Indonesia.
Pirated Britney single = $150,000
Who has the best accountants? MS or RIAA...
...and he grinned, like a fox eating shit out of a wire brush.
Ramen doesn't cost the same everywhere -- in London, Where Decent Food Costs A Lot, a packet of ramen can be 65p (I'm talking about cheap good third world instant ramen, not the silly Japanese stuff that actually tastes like ramen). In NY that same ramen is only 45 cents and in Japan its about 50yen, the price driven down by the local's bizarre preference for real (ie silly) ramen.
If ramen is only 10 cents in Indonesia, then Indonesia is a good place to buy ramen!
In other news antibiotic abuse is widespread and extremely bad for the environment and the people who live in it.
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
http://www.thejakartapost.com/detaillatestnews.asp ?fileid=20050610135849&irec=3
You should see what One British Pound will buy you in the US at current exchange rates.
I if had any mod points I would mod you Interesting... no wait, the other thing... Tedious.
Wow, we need to be careful here. We're having a logical, reasoned discussion. This may shoot our slashdot karma all to hell.
This has been a test. If this had been an actual Sig, you would have been amused.
They should have sent her to GITMO, then they could've had the "trial" without all the cameras and publicity. Those weepy shots with the parents were definitely bad press.
What a bunch of amateurs. They don't even have the Patriot Act or their own string of talk radio shows to act as government mouthpieces. How are these rubes ever going to get good at denying people their civil rights with a primitive set up like they have?
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Actually, Our government (via microsoft) want to insure that the trojan horse known as windows is used by all countries that we need to keep an eye on. There is no better way to keep an eye on folks than to give them the gift of windows.
Forget looking under your desk lamp for a 'bugging device', just look in your operating system.
The government which is strong enough to protect you from everything is strong enough to take everything from you.
Well we know they killed 5 aussies in the 70s, though not a single indo got "TRIED".
That means aussies have a +10 credit line of
freebies.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
If she is innocent, then they wouuld TRUST to
let her go back to australia until she is tried.
DUHH!!!
The fact that you are in jail prooves that they assume she is guilty.
Any way, indo is corrupt, they kill people and laff about it, re East Timor.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
I've said this a million times to friends: If their operating system was priced reasonably - somewhere in the 50 - 60 US dollar range, I'd purchase it. After all, you get what you pay for and their swiss cheese operating systems isn't worth more than that until service pack 14.
cannabis can be a $30b/year industry
both in
cloths,food,oils,byproducts etc... (screw cotton)
and if they had the balls... make it a tourist thing, screw usa and UNs opinion.
but i dont expect any brains from idiots though... scared little rats they all are.
if it was good for the last 5000 years, why is the last 100 so different?
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Duh. Perhaps they should get free software, or wait, uhm. This is such flattery actually.
They can't force developing countries like us to solely use legal software since we can't afford it. They want us to gradually reduce our use of it. Erm, is it just me or does that sentance read like MS want indonesia to reduce their use of legal software? Oh well, if they insist.
I paid $5 for two legit copies.. but that was from msdnaa
In Soviet Russia, Microsoft pays YOU.
could give them a lot of problems with this.
just read this whole story is a hoax...
If there isn't an "owner" tag on it or some record that identifies a previous owner, you're basically screwed.
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
I do anal, but I won't do it fair
I thought for a moment that I was a clipped-cavagnac, short-haired, 35yo, public employee, married to a District Attorney and father of one 5yo kid.
Silly me.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048