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Financial Responsibility == Terrorism?
An anonymous reader writes "Capital Hill Blue is reporting that recently a retired Texas schoolteacher and his wife had a little run in with the Department of Homeland Security. The crime? Paying down some debt. From the article: 'The balance on their JCPenney Platinum MasterCard had gotten to an unhealthy level. So they sent in a large payment, a check for $6,522. And an alarm went off. A red flag went up. The Soehnges' behavior was found questionable. [...] They were told, as they moved up the managerial ladder at the call center, that the amount they had sent in was much larger than their normal monthly payment. And if the increase hits a certain percentage higher than that normal payment, Homeland Security has to be notified.'"
This isn't surprising. I work for a regional bank. Every employee is required to undergo training to know "what to look for". Doesn't matter if you are a teller, or a computer help desk operator. Anything over a certain dollar limit must be reported. As time goes on, the threshold has lowered. Pay off your house early? Gets reported. Large deposit? gets recorded. And anything overseas gets more scrutiny than J-Lo's panty lines.
The training creeped me out. the uber-patriotic person assigned to train our group was so into it. 3/4 of our group thought it was great... bringing down meth dealers who weren't smart enough to structure their money better. In fact, however, structuring is a crime as well... Go just below the radar one too many times, and you can be charged, eevn if there is no illegal activity behind the generation of money.
And, I would be wise to post AC (I won't, so this message might get more credibility) as advising someone how to avoid setting off the bells and whistles is a crime too.
We don't live in 1984, but we might be at 1983...
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
I have no idea why a much larger than normal payment would trigger red flags for suspicious behavior. But then, I'm not responsible for Homeland Security.
From the article:
The flags were cleared, they didn't lose money, they don't live under a cloud of suspicion.
Until or unless we know what behaviors might be red flags for suspicious possibly terrorism-related activity, this story is mildly interesting at best.
The headline for this article is misleading at best: "Financial Responsibility == Terrorism". Noone was accused of terrorism. And, writing a check for $6500 on a credit card sounds to me like typical financial matters, but maybe not "responsible", i.e., we have no idea if they were running large balances against no income, etc. (As a matter of fact, they say in the article they were making this payment because their balance "had gotten to an unhealthy level".
As for unusual financial transactions raising flags, this is not new as reflected in one of the posts in the referenced article:
Of course, I'm sacrificing karma to take the unpopular view.
So....it's a sign of impending terrorism to decide to pay down your debt? Smooth move, guys. Wouldn't suicide terrorists get a card, and max it out - knowing that they will never have to pay it off?
Seriously, it's getting pretty bad. Everything you have to notify the government for.
When I was flying back from Europe, I had to fill out a form with who I was, and my home address, and an emergency contact (if I so wished).
They set it up like it's some sort of idea that all flights into the US require all US citizens to be recognized and accounted for, so that if it goes down? or something like that? that they can know for sure who was on board, and can start contacting people ahead of time?
The requirements for entering the US are so ridiculously more complex than any other country I've visited.
I am unamerican, and proud of it!
It's called "know your customer" regulations. If you do anything outside your normal, sheeplike existence, that's now a license for the government to harass you. So they freeze your bank account? Ah, no big deal to them. I'm tired of being treated like a sheep.
Rank my idea: http://www.sinceslicedbread.com/node/531
Is there another source for this information? Quoting from CHB tells us more about the submitter and the submitter's reading habits than anything factual about the story.
fuck america, bush and his 9/11 hoaxes are the worst thing I have seen in my lifetime.
that and getting 2 posts deleted from slashdot, as they were unfavorable.
lets see how long this one lasts.
And Bin Laden is still free.
Isin't that funny you can be freer in Afghanistan than in the US.
Everyone on /. send me a dollar. I will apply it to one of my credit cards and then we will see how quickly the FBI shows up. I don't mind taking the hit. So as soon as I collect a dollar from everyone I will make the payment. Not a problem. Glad to do it. It's all for the experiment.
Given that the United States is supposed to involve government by "the people", it always amazes me that "the people" choose to subject themselves to so much pointless bureaucracy.
I twice have purchased a new car at the dealer by writing a five-figure check for the full amount before driving away. I had no problems either time.
Large financial transactions are monitored. They always have been. However, the threshold of "what's interesting" to the government has been lowered. Do I think this particular instance makes sense? Of course not. The government is simply trying to track "large" movements of cash that are outside of the mainstream to catch money laundering. I had a similar experience recently when I bought a new car and paid cash (recently inherited some $$$). Do I find it annoying? Yes. However, I also find it a necessary nuissance to help keep smugglers and criminals from easily moving money around through our banking system.
If you've got a better solution, I'd love to hear it.
To have so much owing on their card.
This has absolutely nothing to do with terrorism, and it's been around for quite a while. The purpose is to catch drug dealers. Whether that's an appropriate thing for the government to be putting so much effort into or not is another matter.
This article is sickening. I understand that there is a need for watching large amounts of money that trade hands, but c'mon, we're now starting to scrutinize people who work to pay off their debts? If they're tracking us enough that they know on average how much we pay on credit cards per month, you'd think that the (insert government/corporate monicker here) would have an idea that people would like to get out of high-interest credit cards.
Personally I think this sounds like a poorly-shrouded excuse for this credit card company (among others?) to scrutinize their customer's finances and try to intimidate them into staying in debt for longer periods of time. Sickening IMHO.
As long as there is a Second Amendment, there will always be a First Amendment.
For a government that is deep in the pocket of credit card companies, the bankruptcy bill was the first step....
Intimidating people who pay off their debt early is the next step.
After that... jail time?
"The requirements for entering the US are so ridiculously more complex than any other country I've visited."
And yet the illegal immigrants keep coming.
I've payed my tuition on my credit card a few times (almost $5,000) and paid it off the next day. No interest, no fees... just 1% cash back!
Though, I suppose JCPenny is more... terrorist friendly??
Clearly what every patriotic and nationalistic citizen should do is maintain a large debt, so that they can send their monthly interest donation to the good credit company. It's honest companies like this that hold the world together, and we should support them!!
Seriously though - I wonder who has to pay the interest on that $6,522 between when they sent it, and when it was finally cleared to be put in their account... Actually, I don't wonder at all.
The original article came from the Providence Journal via Scripps Howard.
Have to stop paying the bills – otherwise they'll think I'm a terrorist!
Creative misinterpretation is your friend.
My question is...how exactly would this identify terrorists - who are, presumably, the people that a filter like this would be intended to identify? I can certainly understand that unprecedented financial behavior can, in a very small percentages of cases, indicate illegal behavior (drug dealing, primarily), but how is this within the scope of the jurisdiction of Homeland Security? Don't we have the DEA and IRS for things like that?
It frightens me that the Department of Homeland Security has become the bohemoth it has, and it seems to me that it will, in short order, become the beaurocracy that it was intended to improve upon. Frankly, I hope that will be the case, as the alternatives are frightening; beurocracy was built into the constitution, specifically to limit the powers of the federal government.
The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. - Albert Einstein
Although it is definitely misapplied in this case.
Here's how you can use a credit card to launder money:
1. Sign up for a credit card.
2. Charge a few things on it, say, $100.
3. Send in a check to pay your credit card bill. Say $5000.
4. When you "find out" you overpaid, request a refund.
I know, this sounds like a pretty crappy money laundering scheme. And it is. But enough people have done it that banks have to look out for it. So when you overpay your bill by too much, alarms go off.
Other things that set alarms off:
1. Cash deposits over $600 (I may be slightly off on this amount, can't remember off the top of my head)
2. Many cash deposits slightly under $600 (seemingly to dodge the $600 alarm)
There's other stuff that will do it too. Can't remember them at the moment though.
There are two possible reasons that I can personally think of.
Basically, anything sudden is a big red flag to the DHS, and other authorities. Most people don't do sudden stuff like suddenly pay off ~$6,500 of their credit card debt in one payment. It's unusual, and also carries a significant enough amount of a question as to intent that the action was done, that the rarity of investigating it, is outweighed by the potential gain if it catches just one terrorist, or "domestic perpetrator of violence".
I am unamerican, and proud of it!
Because, despite the sensationalist headline, that's what this is really about.
/sheep.
Of course, your post will get you mod points from the anti-Bush
Pull the $6,600 back out. If they complain, say you tried, they didn't want it. If only the world could work that way. They call Homelan security if you do pay, they call the FBI if you don't.
Aside from the massive privacy implications that concern us all, it's not that ridiculous to be suspicious of someone suddenly paying off a large amount of their bills, especially if there's nothing in their history to suggest that they'd be able to. Honestly, large cash influxes to do so often mean promotions at work, winning the lottery, etc., but they also can be a sign of a whole host of unsavory sources of income -- domestic drug dealing, acting as an agent/mule to the international drug trade, prostitution, gambling, spying, etc.
Whether we like to admit it or not, money is a primary motivating force behind questionable activity. Money, sex, drugs, and ideology are pretty much the big four. Whenever there's a red flag in those areas, it's reasonable to think what's going on might be suspicious. Whether or not that warrants being formally investigated is another point entirely, but you can't deny that someone who only pays off a small amount of their bills suddenly having the ability to pay off $6000+ looks suspicious at least on paper.
From the article:
Eventually, his and his wife's money was freed up.
The flags were cleared, they didn't lose money, they don't live under a cloud of suspicion.
Oh, that's quite okay then. I guess it's fine to confiscate people's money as long as you give it back in the end (I hope they got paid it back with interest, otherwise they did lose money), and there's no problem with investigating people for entirely spurious reasons as long as you don't cause them too much mental anguish while you're busy accusing them of acting like terrorists.
Big Brother is watching you, but don't worry, he's a very kind big brother and he won't torture you if you haven't done anything naughty!*
* Unless you look kind of foreign.
And, writing a check for $6500 on a credit card sounds to me like typical financial matters, but maybe not "responsible", i.e., we have no idea if they were running large balances against no income, etc. (As a matter of fact, they say in the article they were making this payment because their balance "had gotten to an unhealthy level".
And? That's between them and their bank. If they're running large balances against no income, their bank would be unwise to continue to lend them money, and should consider requiring security for any further loans. I fail to see where homeland security comes into it.
As for unusual financial transactions raising flags, this is not new as reflected in one of the posts in the referenced article:
This kind of spying isn't new. I bought a vehicle in 1990 and wrote a check for it. The dealer had to record where I got the money because "the IRS wants to know the source of any payment in excess of a certain dollar amount."
Again, that makes sense. The IRS clearly needs to keep track of large money transfers. The American people have generally accepted the idea of federal taxes, and as such accept that a federal tax agency needs to know who has what money so they can be taxed correctly (and punished if they're not paying their fair share). Homeland security doesn't come into it.
Even if you take the line that large payments might be a sign of money-laundering going on, surely money-laundering is the FBI's remit, not the Secret Police^W^WHomeland Security?
America - still more free than North Korea!
Capitol Hill Blue is never very reliable, this is the same place that claims to have 'classified reports' from the US Secret Service saying that Cheney was in fact drunk when he accidentally shot Mr. Magoo. While that is still up for debate, if said reports do exists one would think that they would have been better publicized?
Link Here
So why is homeland security investigating this then? Why not IRS, or even the FBI. Why homeland security?
evil is as evil does
This isn't even about terrorism, this is part of the War On Some Drugs. This is "Know Your Customer" from years ago, been going on over a decade in one form or another.
Any unexpected transaction these days gets the once over, any cash purchase over X gets reported to the FBI. (Last I heard, X was $10K) Buy a car with cash, get investigated. Walk into an airport with a sack of cash and it will simply be taken, no appeals, no trial, no recourse. Simply being in an airport with cash is a crime subject to asset forfeiture. Bitch too loud and they will simply arrest you along with the money. Been that way since the '80s.
Democrat delenda est
So - whats the issue. His payment was delayed by a week or 2 while the authorities checked to make sure everything was OK? Big deal.
FYI - Terrorist "A" sneaks in with a little cash and a credit card. Uses the credit card for whatever (hhhmm, flying lessons maybe). He has no way to pay it off so the terrorists back home send in the payment. They don't want to keep up communication while "A" is underground preparing so only on occasion do they communicate and that is when they send in a payment.
Far-fetched? Maybe - but maybe this is the way 9/11 came to be and they're doing their best to find the bad guys before there is another 9/11.
I have no idea why a much larger than normal payment would trigger red flags for suspicious behavior.
The question is what did you do to get all this extra money? Did you commit a crime? Or did someone of disrepute give you the money to launder?
The purpose of these laws is to make a big stack of cash relatively useless. That helps make stealing or otherwise illegitimately "earning" a big stack of cash less inviting. Sure, you can steal a million dollars, but then you can't do anything with it.
Yes, but the point is the government organization receiving these reports is HOMELAND SECURITY. In other words, that which everyone predicted has happened. Homeland Security is now handling day-to-day law enforcement -- but, unlike, say, your local PD or the FBI, Homeland Security doesn't answer to anyone. Homeland Security can literally do ANYTHING and you have no recourse.
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PGP Key ID 0xCB8FF658
I get it... terrorists buy bomb making equipment on their credit cards... then to have a "clear conscience" afterwards, pay their credit card off before blowing themselves up!
Give the DHS a Nobel prize... pure stroke of genius!
But seriously, why would terrorists be using credit cards (which already leaves a paper trail) and not cash, secondly, if you were a terrorist, why pay off the debt?
Excuses Are Like Assholes - Everybody's Got One
How will the economy function if the credit department can't count on 25% interest on that ^$6500 they are owed? Those people are hurting the economy by taking charge of their debt load!
Oh You POS
You mean these people are not loading more debt (Oh my bad..."leveraging Other People's Money") onto their JC Penney's card to do their patriotic duty of financing a new plasma big screen at 27% interest? It's is every American's duty to conform to the purchase requirement of their individual Urban Pacification Device, tuned to the channels provided by Comcast Corporation.
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
track people being financially responseable in order to catch terrorists. Because all know that while Jesus/Allah/ Budda (I love you all) excusee mass murder, they never forgive credit card debt.
run for something, I'll vote for you. (because I have no mod points)
Forget targeting people trying to get out of their credit card mess...Homeland Security should to be looking for the large cash deposits and not legitimate transactions where there is an obvious paper trail.
I think the Rule up here in Canada is any cash over $10,000.00 is reportable.
I guess I'm going to be screwed this month. I purchased a Mac Mini (PowerPC) a month ago with a student discount, made a double payment of $32 on the first statement that I got, and I paid off the balance of $851 when I got my tax return this week. I guess the FBI will be staking out my apartment now. Worst... the Mac Mini doesn't do a good job crunching the numbers for my nuclear weapon design -- uh, class project.
Enron dumped hundreds of millions of dollars off-shore and the government never suspected a thing.
These people pay off $6K of debt and they're investigated and you support that.Yeah, it's called "Freedom".
Sometimes it means that the criminals get away, but that's part of the price of Freedom.
Since I haven't paid anything in the last few months, anything I put in above $0 would be an infinite percentage increase over the last few months. How am I supposed to get started paying that off?
Ooookay, let's think this out. You're Joe Creditcardbanker, and you get a payment from Mr. Citizen for $6500. You screw up a little and neglect to credit it promptly. Now Mr. Citizen calls, angry. WTF? Where's my payment, dude? You've got two choices, Joe:
(1) Uh...I messed up, Mr. Citizen. Sorry! Please don't sue us!
(2) Not my fault, Mr. Citizen! You should see the forms the gummint makes us fill out when this happens! Blame Homeland Security! Blame Bush! Osama! Lions and tiger and bears, oh my! Come to think of it, you're gosh-darn lucky we managed to credit you at all...
In other words, let us take due note of Hanlon's Axiom: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
>I have no idea why a much larger than normal payment would trigger red flags for suspicious behavior.
You don't ? How about this: A sudden inflow of money in the market, disrupting economy, causing inflation and mass panic ?
Or: Is there something better than money to spread anthrax ? The more money circulating, the easier to spread anthrax.
I started to post the amount that constitutes a red flag. It isn't much and the fact that the amount is a secret is even more ludicrous. But, then I started to question whether I felt up to challenging the PATRIOT Act by disclosing this information and... I chickened out.
I guess it works! We're all fucked!
I just got a loan to consolidate my debt. I'll be paying $20k worth of credit card debt in the next couple days. Each card will probably send up a red flag since all Ive been paying lately is just the minimums.
If they show up, I'm going to fight them- to whatever end. Somehow, I doubt they will though.. just a hunch.
So why is homeland security investigating this then? Why not IRS, or even the FBI. Why homeland security?
Because they're the new shiney branch of the executive branch with the money to actually look into these sorts of things.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong (anyone) but I believe that the FBI is now a part of the DHS.
I am unamerican, and proud of it!
Of course, I'm sacrificing karma to take the unpopular view.
You crazy sonuvagun.
The FBI is part of Homeland Security now. The IRS will be soon.
>
>And Bin Laden is still free.
He hates us for our freedom. All this means is that he's got less and less reason to hate us every day!
So let me get this straigt... If I don't pay my bills, my credit goes to crap and I become a deadbeat. If I do pay my bills, I'm a terrorist.
If I pay for items using cash, it is assumed I am a terrorist. If I pay for items using a check, the Ministry of Homeland Defence will question me for being either a terrorist or criminal. If I pay with credit, Chase (or whatever other company my credit cards go though) will break my legs with interest, plus the same penalties for non-payment or payment of bills.
WTF???
Navicula hydraulica plena anguilarum est. Omnes castelli tuus nostri sunt. Ed elli avea del cul fatto trombetta.
They're coming after you, now.
The purpose of the plan is not to catch drug dealers. That's goverment doublespeak. In reality, the reason we call drug dealing a federal crime is so we can `rationalize' such liberty-encroaching plans.
Eventually, his and his wife's money was freed up.
Enough said.
I don't see how this relates to terrorism at all, and my guess is that is doesn't relate. The government has always flagged large, unusual transactions of money. Mainly, they want to keep on the lookout for illegal income (drugs, etc,) and they also want to make sure that you paid taxes on any unexpected income. If someone who is has been collecting unemployment for the last 6 months suddenly pays off a $15000 debt or buys a new car with cash up front, chances are something illegal is going on. And if you happen to win $15000 on a trip to Vegas and you come home and put it in the bank, the government wants to make sure that you pay taxes on it.
Like I said, I doubt that this is really terrorism-related. It's more likely that this is another example of the government using their extended terrorism-fighting powers to fight regular crime instead.
it is *not* the business of the government. yes, you are 100% right - the couple in TFA are not under a cloud of suspicion, and their payment eventually went through
however, homeland security goons are familliar with some of the intimate details of their finances, and the just makes me feel icky
I call bullshit on this story.
While I understand and agree with the point it is trying to make,
the lack of a certain detail makes it pure BS.
If you've ever paid off credit card debt, like before
buying a house, you know that you need to call the CC company
FIRST and ask for a payout amount. If you don't do this, then
interest will continue to be calculated, and you will still have
a small balance left.
Nice try -- but making up stories is not going to get your rights back.
god, /. has gone downhill.
"it's not that ridiculous to be suspicious of someone suddenly paying off a large amount of their bills, especially if there's nothing in their history to suggest that they'd be able to"
So why would I loan you anything if there was no hope of paying it off?
Oh come on. Check your political baggage at the door please. Trying to paint this poster as someone who thinks Enron-style white collar crime is OK is simply in very poor taste.
Tracking large movements of cash by private citizens is certainly useful in keeping track of criminal activity. Yes, it does inconvenience legitimate users of big wads of cash and I think we can all agree that this case was a waste of law enforcement resources.
And perhaps you are willing to wink at criminal behaviour so that you can secretly wire a few thousand quid to your mistress without having a few questions raised. I am not.
Personally, I give it another 20 years before cash as we know it today to be almost completely worthless. It would be like walking into a Walmart with gold bullion and expecting the teller to accomodate you. The world is changing.
"Thanks for setting me straight though. And boo the AC for leading me astray. BOOO!!!"
All that energy to BOO something that wasn't ment to be a correction while ignoring the post that was attached to it.
Oh gee, I wonder what they'll come up with next?
CHB is a rag. It's complete trash and they've been known to ouright fabricate stories and sources. If it's got CHB behind it I don't even trust the people mentioned in the story actually exist.
Don't stop at this story if you doubt it. Click over a few and be amazed... these folks well and truly do make FOX look "fair and balanced" - emphasis on the "balance" part.
It's great that major terrorist plots such as this are being foiled, but I wish more scrutiny was given to payments coming *in* to bank accounts.
For example, the Bin Laden Group is Dubya's biggest financial backer, and has repeatedly rescued him from bankruptcy.
I would also like to see far more scrutiny of payments from weapons manufacturers, oil companies, tabacco companies, mining companies, etc, to political parties. It's clearly *these* payments that are at the *root* of terrorism. Emperor Dubya and his gang of war criminals are far too keen to treat the symptoms of these issues ( the rise of Islamic fundamentalism ) instead of addressing the cause - themselves and their financial backers.
Think what would've happened if the couple had chosen the same two-week stretch to paint their entire house and do a lot of yardwork. There would've been SWAT teams with megaphones on the neighboring rooftops.
As for unusual financial transactions raising flags, this is not new
For the uninitiated, the law under which this was done is the Bank Secrecy Act in 1970. It was recently rolled up into the USAPATRIOT act, which "updated" it to account for the new ills of society.
The DHS isn't just about terrorism. It covers other aspects related to this story.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
The real story here is that the Department of Homeland Security is also responsible for credit fraud. One of the scams people pull is to steal a number, write a bogus check to the credit card company for that card (which guarantees the credit will be there), and then spend the amount that was written on the check before the check is cashed (and detected as bogus).
The auto-trip flag for this is that when a large payment comes in that's many multiples of the payee's normal history, the credit card company will hold the payment until the check clears, which is within 10 days at the outside.
In other words, this has nothing to do with terrorism, the fascist Bush regime, the gestapo at DHS, or any other Orwellian fantasy you can cook up. It's an arguably poor fraud prevention measure, nothing more.
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
It sneaks up on you. Many, many years ago, I opened a bank account; nobody asked what I did for a living, nobody asked where the money came from. Several years ago, my wife and I got a small safety deposit box for wedding/engagement ring storage, and the questions went on and on, esp. regarding my wife's self-employed status. Now I read a story about folks paying off a credit card debt that they could afford to pay off, and having their assets frozen. In a few years, will I go into the bank attempting to transfer funds between accounts, only to find everything frozen while they do a background check?
I predict that wall safes and such are going to come back in style one of these days, and (esp. considering interest rates on accounts being negligible) bank accounts are going to be the place exclusively for money that's moving, not money that's being saved.
I periodically pay off previously accumlated debt when I get company bonuses, etc. I've done what they did at least 5 times in the past 5 years and never once heard from DHS. I suspect there is more to their story than they are providing. Don't forget that the card issuer, as well as DHS, is prevented from telling their side of the story due to privacy concerns.
I had a real hassle when I bought my house. I told the mortgage about a bunch, but not all, of my accounts. When I went to pay the down-payment, I took the money out of somewhere else. It became a major hassle; they insisted I had to take the money from an account I had previously told them about.
I ended up taking an early-withdrawl penalty on a CD so I could do that.
Id est, they didn't have any credit available - it's not as though their money was tied up. It was the bank's money that wasn't available to them.
So what?
Funny you mention Waco. Just last weekend I was talking to one of the neighbors of the Dividian compound. Not members. Neighbors. Their telling of the story is that other than some target practice, which is a common activity in the area, the Dividians were a quite group that didn't bother anyone. Per their telling, some neighbors go annoid with the noise from target practice, and called the cops. The Sherrifs went out, and had the whole thing sorted out well before the Feds showed up. The guns they had were legally purchased and delivered via FedEx.
Based on this, and what I saw on the news, sometimes when you are not doing anything wrong, you DO have something to worry about.
Actually, this seems to be the arguement. But in reality the organized crime that not so surprisingly infests a good portion of the commerce in this country has ways to deal (think: someone on the payroll + proper response strategy to launder the ill-gotten goods) with these kinds of problems... it's just the small-timers that are caught.
In the end it's our freedoms that are trampled on, and those are going to be hard, if impossible to ever win back... especially since now, anything related to "terrorism" has effectively no oversight or appeal.
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
What a load of crap. The US claims to have frozen most of Bin Laden's assets and cut him off from any money he had. It's very unlikely that his money is helping him much. That is, at least, if you believe the US government.
I'm a bit skeptical that Homeland Security really requires this info. If it does, certainly the company can give the specific part of the law that requires it. Several companies have been caught requesting extra personal information "as required by the Patriot Act". When pressed, they were unable to show how the PA applied and had to back down. The patriot act make a very useful cudgel for getting customers to do what you want.
That's just plain idiotic. Ever since the introduction of the income tax, you are obligated to share your financial matters with the government. So then it's not just your own.
In addition, if you r personal financial matters happened to have money unaccounted for or out of the ordinary, there is good reason to be suspicious.
You slashbots should stop being so obtuse. This case is not new or extraordinary. Maybe you should get out of your basement and take of the tin-foil hate sometime.
The whole DHS thing is farcical and "keystone kops" esque to me. They're so bumbling and fumbling and catching innocent American citizens for the crimes of people who came to this country to perpetrate evil. They had more than enough info on the 20, I don't understand why innocents have to pay for their ineptitude with more scrutiny and even worse ineptitude. Terrorism is the new communism. You can say anything if it's "to fight terra". If you pay off your debt, then the terrists win.
I hate sigs.
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
You're desperate, and on the edge, and you're planning on offing yourself, but to avoid problems for your heirs and such, you pay off significant amounts of your debt.
hahahahahahahaha! RIGHT! You, sir, have no concept of the suicidal mind...
Oh yes. All those people presently involved in the drug trade will suddenly become angels once illegal drugs are made legal.
"Or do you hate freedom?"
Or do you hate not understanding the world?
I wonder what being flagged means. Would their phone calls to other countries start getting monitored? This is the sort of thing that people should be using as an argument against wiretaps without a proper warrant.
I had to fill out all these forms to tell them how much money I made last year. I had to tell them all sorts of other information. If that's not an invasion of privacy, I don't know what is.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
My program printed "false".
Someone looks into your car at night, then looks around as if to see if anyone's watching. Criminal? No. Suspicious behavior? Yes. Worth monitoring? Yes. Person guilty of anything damaging? No. If you can't act on probable actions, you can't do anything to prevent a crime. As long as you use suspicious behavior as a hint of possible plans, rather than evidence of wrongdoing. Problem is I know a lot of people who only look for confirming evidence and ignore all disconfirming evidence.
First, last year, I went into the bank and handed them a check for $10K. The year before, same thing, but paid off the other credit card. Paid off my one remaining crdit card this year, put the rest in savings, then took out a new car loan. Now today, my income tax return check came in and I have to deposit that ($3K). They are going to wonder what is going on......
Seriously, they didn't even ask questions. Of course, I have been a customer at this bank for 25+ years now.
He hates us for our freedom.
No, that's what the US government WANTS you to think. Try escaping from what you've been brainwashed into believing for a moment and think rationally about whether all of the thousands of "terrorists" are all so crazy that they just have a simple hatred of freedom, or want to kill you (and themselves, in the process) just because they're jealous of "your freedom".
"Terrorists" (aka "freedom fighters", when they're not fighting the US) are not crazy. Typically, they're well-educated and fairly well-off. Most of the "terrorist attacks" in the past couple of decades have been motivated by the foreign occupation of a country where there are religious differences between the occupiers and the people that live in that country.
I bet that if Iraq were to occupy the US for even a single day, you'd see ten times as many attacks on Iraqi occupiers by Americans than you would see on a bad day in Baghdad. No country likes being invaded. Treat others as you want to be treated.
Keep your eyes to the sky.
One of the ways that they catch spies who've started selling secrets to foreign governments is by identifying if they are "living beyond their means." Even so, one would imagine that $7K wouldn't set off that alarm. That's a lucky streak in Vegas.
A down payment on a new home is more the magnitude that I would be thinking.
While the original sources of this story aren't the most reliable in the world, it's likely that there's some truth to it. There's a reasonable discussion at http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/03/the_ terrorist_t.html . Essentially, cash transactions over $10K have always been monitored, but now financial institutions other than banks have to do analogous reporting. And DHS has nothing to do with it; it's FinCEN, which is part of the Treasury Department. The fact that the person in question triggered such an inquiry at $6500 is probably due to the wide latitude that the regulations give to financial institutions to implement the reporting requirements.
A friend of mine used to be a vice president at a big tech firm. He lived in CA. The company he worked for eventually went under and he went looking for a new job. No matter how overqualified he was though, he couldnt get another job. Finally one of his interviewers told him why. A few years back he had gotten a bill for a hit and run in NY. He hadnt been there that day, and it was physically impossible for him to have done it, but someone had "seen" his license plate. His lawyer told him that it was better to pay the $75 dollars than to pay him 600 or 700 to go out and fight it for him. So he paid the bill. Then, a few months before the company, which was involved in some defense projects, he got into an arguement with his neighbor, and ended up in a shouting match at the bottom of his driveway. About a week later the guy died of natural causes. When his company went under, everyone had a security check done on them by the Office of Homeland Security, without their knowing about it. This report was available to any company that he applied at for a job. In it, it said that he had committed a hit and run, and that after a loud and violent arguement with a neighbor, the man died. That was why he wasnt able to get a job. That was about 2 years ago now, and he still hasnt gotten a job. Innocent until proven guilty? Bullshit.
I paid of 3 off my credit cards totalling over $10K last year!!
Your comment is assinine and has nothing to do with TFA.
First, this was six thousand dollars... not exactly inflation causing, eh?
Second, this was a single check mailed to a single creditor. One could just as easily send an envelope full of IRRATIONAL_FEAR to whomever they wanted to with out attaching a monetary device to it.
Along similar but perhaps sillier lines, I contacted freescale semiconductor with a question about how to handle a particular floating point error in a PowerPC processor. I received an interesting email stating: "Unfortunately at this time due to the Transactions Regulations (31CFR560) administered by the US Office of Foreign Asset Control we not able to respond to your inquiry" I was stunned!, I live in Australia, a supposed ally of the USA in the war in Iraq (though much of the populace does not support it) However when I got to the bottom of it, I had accidentally entered my country of residence in the log-in profile as 'Afganistan' instead of 'Australia' Obviously, we can't have terrorists knowing about how to handle a floating point error can we!! Anyway, once I changed my profile to 'Australia' all was good. Glad most terrorists wouldnt think of doing that... John
Those criminals will simply move on to another criminal activity once the profit has been removed from this one.
Just to put things into perspective, you have a greater chance of being killed or injured by your own car than you do suffering death or injury from a terrorist attack.
/.
Which is why you need a driver's license, are required to wear seat belts, can't drive before a certain age, and have to drive a vehicle that meets government safety standards. It's also why you're required to have regular inspections, and why you can be pulled over and ticketed for driving with faulty equipment, or arrested and jailed for driving under the influence or even just recklessly.
In other words, not a good example to support your argument. (Which I basically agree with otherwise.)
But this all misses the point. Where is the rest of this story? All we know from this article, factually (or at least according to these people, who may or may not be telling the truth), is that one is a retired schoolteacher and they were contacted by homeland security because of a large payment they made. We also know that this guy has a lot of anger towards the government that may or may not have been caused by this action by DHS, or it may have existed previously and manifested itself in other ways. We don't know for how long or why these people were under surveillance by DHS - and some people have pretty good reasons for being under surveillance. (Yes, even Americans - remember Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols?)
Now, if large payments alone were a trigger for a DHS audit, you can bet it would be front page news. Millions of people every year make large payments into their IRA's or on their home mortgages at various times for tax purposes, or other reasons. I myself have made payments larger than $6,000 on both my credit cards and student loans, and I can assure you that's not my normal payment amount - but I have yet to be contacted by DHS. Why is that? The only difference between me and this guy, according to this article, is that he is a retired Texas schoolteacher and I work in the entertainment industry. The DHS must love their cable TV.
No, it just sounds fishy. Either the story is made up, or there's a long backstory here that we're not getting. Otherwise this surveillance would appear to be basically random (targetting some people who make payments like this but not others), in which case they may as well just close their eyes, open a phone book and point to get their latest victim. Why even bother?
Sometimes I do get a little tired of seeing these conspiracy theory stories on
And perhaps you are willing to wink at criminal behaviour so that you can secretly wire a few thousand quid to your mistress without having a few questions raised. I am not.
And here we have it, folks. That fantastic attitude called "If you don't like it, you must be doing something wrong". Every scare and people like you grant the government more power to brighten your fucking night light. It's okay to trample our civil liberties as long as those nasty drug traffickers are brought to justice.
Fuck you, Ritz.
If other reasons we do lack, we swear no one will die when we attack
Well it is interesting that they go after the overpayment of credit cards. But what about the people who made boatloads of money on 9/11 betting on the airline stocks to crash. It was well documented that right before 9/11 there were lots of (put/call?) options placed on the stocks betting that they would drop.
There was a lot of noise made about it initially, since this money could be tracked, but nothing ever came about. I read some report that the non-action was due to "privacy" constraints.
hahahahahahahaha! RIGHT! You, sir, have no concept of the suicidal mind...
If you have some incredible insight into the suicidal mind, why are you either a) not dead yet, or b) post as a logged in user as a respected member of the psychiatric community.
There are a number of people who choose to commit suicide because they feel they were forced into that position, but they don't want to punish those who they know and love. They feel that their death is the only real solution for the whole matter.
Putting it bluntly, paying off large amounts of a debt is an action, which can easily be construed as resolving worldly details, which people often do when they know their death is imminent. Whether that knowledge comes from knowledge of a fatal disease/condition, or an intention on their part to end their life.
In all cases, if someone is depressed and starts paying off debts, that's a very bad sign, and would suggest to any compitent psychiatric personal who knows about him would take as a big red flag. There are other indicators that indicate a likelihood that someone might commit suicide, such as feeling alone, sudden and/or drastic change in their life, or feeling insignificant/meaningless.
But anyone who is suddenly putting earthly affairs in order is definitely a danger to themselves if they're in otherwise perfect health.
I am unamerican, and proud of it!
Anyone who voted Republicrat or Democan, shut up and go sit on the sidelines.
You've already demonstrated that you want an intrusive, activist government, you have no room to complain now. You ASKED FOR THIS.
______________________________________
A vote against a Libertarian candidate is
a vote to abolish the Constitution itself
There is so much BS out there about Homeland Security
And some slimeball companies are using this to keep people from paying down credit card debt
Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice doggie" until you can find a rock. Will Rogers
Oh, really. Has it stopped drug smugglers and criminals from moving money around? They seem to be managing okay. Unless I missed the headline that the drug trade dried up overnight.
Why you might think that large criminal organizations have figured out how to move money around without raising any flags. *shock* *gasp*
So you, him, all of us have to put up with "necessary nuisance" while the big criminals manage to get by. What has that sheep like cooperation bought us? Less drugs? Nope. More security? Sorry. How about a massive money-sucking federal bureaucracy with nothing better to do than stick their nose in the business of ordinary citizens? Yup, got that one.
And people like you are the reason they keep getting away with it. Yes, that's personal.
Suddenly I have the urge to brush up on the words to O' Canada. We seem to have power hungry right wing extremists on one side and twitwits saying things like, "If you haven't done anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about" on the other. And I've had enough of the former and am disgusted by the later. You both deserve each other.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
...guilty until proven innocent. :-(
Things you do that are okey today and aren't okay tomorrow won't be held against you tomorrow. Laws can't be created ex post facto in the US.
No wait... are you telling me that...the government of all people...is...is...spying on me! [shocked gasp] Oh my god! Do you think they might be monitoring my calls to my family overseas too... Naaa... They wouldn't stoop that low.
Sounds to me like you should be telling your friend to sue the department of homeland security for the lost wages and for emotional anguish. There absolutely must be several civil violations in these despicable actions by the government which would allow him to completely take them for necessary income to live comfortably for the rest of his life.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
I never thought terrorists would be so diligent to pay off their credit cards before committing acts of terror. Stupidest thing I've heard in a few hours.
G
"If you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about."
You're just screwing with my mind right?
That may be true in "Leave it to Beaver land" or "Father Knows Best land" but not in the real world. If you haven't noticed let me clue you in. Our government no longer represents the people. The slime balls running the country don't believe an justice any more. All they care about is corporate money honey.
So domestic spying CAN NOT be allowed as there will surely be cases where bogus charges will be brought against innocent people for political reasons or to advance someones hidden agenda.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
And who pays the doctor bills for their stress-induced stroke?
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
In the story the credit card company said the funds were held up due to security reasons. Thus I assume the credit card company was collecting interest during this time. Which means it is to their advantage to do this. It seems to me that credit card companies do all they can to nickel and dime you (more like 39.95 you) for example paying a day late. This annoys me since they get to charge you interest and would prefer you to be late. In so far as overboard security procedures it is an example of a win for Bin Laden. Probably does little for real security but bleeds our resources. Which by the way was in a recent statement as a goal of Al Queda
Most people don't do sudden stuff like suddenly pay off ~$6,500 of their credit card debt in one payment.
Chyea, right.
$1,600 a month is on the low side for my household bills Visa card and I pay it off each month.
The bill I paid last month was over $11.5k (Christmas, tuition, downpayment on a car on top of my regular bills) and I paid it off with a check.
Then again I have been doing it for years, and for me that is business as usual.
Maybe they trigger on unusual behavior, like folks that make minimum payments forever on their card, with the balance slowly growing over years on several cards, all of a sudden sending in a big chunk of money (which IMHO $6,500 isn't - there are days I wear that much in jewelry - hell there are some days I have that much on me in cash) sets of some flags.
Point 1 in your post has merit, but the last thing on a suicidal person's mind is trying to maintain his credit rating (point 2 in your post.)
What it boils down to, though, is KGB Big-Brother'ism. Big time.
Ask yourself - do you genuinely feel safe saying 'unpatriotic' things, even in your own home?
In Soviet Russia, free speech owned YOU! (and now, for a limited time only, in the USA too.)
I feel like one of the little Jewish kids in Poland (1941) that watched the first few waves of people taken away, sort of hiding in the shadows and thankful that I didn't get taken away too. Wondering what was happening, and if everything was going to be ok. I'm a little too young to remember - how'd that work out the first time?
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
i can't speak for anyone else, but i know that a hold placed on my bank account would ruin me. i would not be able to pay rent, buy food. i would probably be evicted from my house.
all because some monkey raised a flag on a "suspicious" transaction.
true - nobody went to jail in this case... but you seem to not be accounting for how easily innocent lives can get screwed up when flags are raised and accounts locked.
maybe you should revisit your argument?
Income tax was also a government lie, if you fail to remember.
"It's just to help us through the war time. It's just temporary!"
Yeah... Ok...
The government has proven time and time again that they cannot be trusted. People like you just keep on apologizing for them and assist in fucking the rest of the people over. Thanks, man.. Thanks.
The unfortunate truth is that Bush has spared no time or energy to sacrifice our civil liberties, supposedly in the name of security. But he has NEVER sacrificed any business liberties for this same goal.
He'll never get in the way of a business's ability to make a buck, even if it increases potential threats to Americans. But as far as our personal liberties granted by the Constitution and Bill of Rights, they can be trounced upon to 'keep us safe' (oh, and make some more bucks for some friendly businesses too).
make world, not war
There's been a form 8000 something that anyone in business has to report a cash (including drafts) transaction over $10K.
'Cept now it's DHS and the triggers are lower and the stakes are higher.
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
ScuttleMonkey posted:
An anonymous reader writes "Capital Hill Blue is reporting that recently a retired Texas schoolteacher and his wife had a little run in with the Department of Homeland Security.
The article says that someone at JC Penny's credit card customer service claimed that Homeland Security had to be notified. There was no mention of Homeland Security actually being involved.
-l
...k market.html
2 /www.worldgame.org/wwwproject/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2704stoc
And 6 grand is what in comparison?
The fact of the matter is that when you screw other over badly enough you can expect relalition.
And thats whats going on, The Bush Administration is parionoid because they are becomming aware of how damn much they have screwed others over.
WTC came was attacked once before 9/11 and targets of WTC, Pentagon, White House say what?
Wrongful manipulation of world economy with political and military backing..
So now the world stock markets must be terrorist activity, considering how its manipulation resulted in dotcom boom (easy winnings had to be put somewhere) and buts (easy come easy go) and the losers, worldcom, enron, etc.. whom still haven't told the american public what they were really doing.
South east asia, indonesia is 88 percent muslin (CIA info).
All it took to help set off the war drums on iraq was one lone high ranking enough, military official, who would not be questioned about there entry into a US military base containing anthrax stores, knowledge how to handle it and newsmedia addresses....
who would be stupid enough to not know the bush administration would fall all over themselves abusing the anthrax events
to get the media to bang war drums for bush?
Who are the real terrorost?
The most terrorism I have seen is not the WTC comming down but the very long running war drum banging of the bush administration against a country that most certainly did not have anything to do with WTC...
Prove that god doesn't exist? You can't as that is a scientific impossibility. So was proving Iraq didn'[t have any weapons of mass destruction. And teh US hasn't been able to find any.
Remember the smallpox threat that was use in all this?
The truth is. :
http://www.unesco.org/education/tlsf/theme_a/mod0
The question is:
Why are we not doing what we know how to, have the resources and man power to genuinely remove what terrorist use to gain support and followers?
The real terrorist are the ones parionoid of retailation, because they have been so damn fucking bad on others.
This is all about the war on drugs. Yes, never leave a bank with more than $5K in cash. If a criminal catches you with it, it's gone. If a cop catches you with it, it's gone. What has this country come to?
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
I'm in charge of a company wide software package at a large financial institution. I occasionally get passed up to me really screwy things that come from representatives or customer service reps that are, shall we say, sub-par. Is the web site not performing a calculation the way you expect? Try reimaging your computer they say.
99.9% of the time people do the right thing. But with a zillion transactions you get some people that don't want to do the job and make up an excuse. So before I'd blame the government, I'd want to see some kind of proof that
a.) the people really were told this,
b.) that the customer rep really did get told this,
c.) that the people in charge of the system really did think that they had to do this,
d.) that someone in the government thought they should do this, and
e.) that the government really did want them to do this.
It is a long chain. Don't just question the authority of the government, question the authenticity of the article. Then when you've proved that out, you have more weight questioning the government.
If someone phones in a death threat, do you not monitor phones and such in order to catch them?
Terrorists have already phoned in the death threats so to speak, we're just trying to figure out who they are.
Seems to me we are treating this like other crimes but the crime itself is at a larger scale (in that we are talking about true mass murder).
Unless of course you think that if a citizen gets a death threat they should just ignore it until killed and then let the detectives figure it out. No thanks.
Posted anon because this makes too much sense to not get flamed on Slashdot.
That was exactly the bullshit scam that PayPal pulled on me to "freeze" my account, thousands of dollars, for over a year. I'm sure banks got the Feds to write those rules to cover their new "obligations" to hold onto billions in "questionable", interest-bearing transactions. Which they invest while they hold it.
There should be a penalty for wrongfully intercepting those transactions. A just world would hold the banks, and those parties who make these bad models they apply unilaterally, liable for the losses and damage - if only inconvenience.
--
make install -not war
The reasoning behind this is because, generally, if you have that much debt, you do *not* have the means to pay it off. The reasoning continues that people deep in debt can get desperate--and indeed, they do. Many financial crimes have been born out of pure desperation.
Therefore, they generally reason that any time you suddenly have a large pile of cash, they want to know where you got it from (the implication being that you might have stolen, embezzeled, or acquired it from some other illegal activity).
But yeah, it's not exactly a good thing for your privacy. Even so, there are enough laws on the books that merely having too much *cash* is a bad thing. I think that you can be accused of drug trafficing or something silly for having more than $10k in cash, too, but IANAL and that may just be some random Internet rumour.
If that's the case- how many people here think that this little incident will be completely expunged from their records?
Anyone?
I didn't think so. This little 'innocent incident' and their reaction will be quietly filed away with the feds, their banks, and most likely Equifax, Experian, etc.
So, what we have here is something that will be on their federal & financial records for the rest of their lives- and they did nothing wrong.
What happens the next time they decide to throw $3k at their credit card? Someone runs a credit check? They want to pay cash for a car?
What a load of crap. The US claims to have frozen most of Bin Laden's assets and cut him off from any money he had. It's very unlikely that his money is helping him much. That is, at least, if you believe the US government.
Are these the same US sources that claimed there were large numbers of WMD's in Iraq? The problem with Al-Qaeda is precisely that they don't use regular routes for transferring money, infromation, weapons or anything else. Messages are carried between Al-Qaeda leaders verbally or in encoded dispatches by couriers, money is moved in hand luggage, or if they do use banks they spread the money all over the place in an inconspicuous manner. There is conveniently vulnerable no central Al-Qaeda cash repository that a bean counter at the Department of Homeland security can shut down by setting a few check boxes in a web interface and hitting the 'OK' button. The reason the USA is having such problems with Al-Qaeda is that Al-Qaeda members avoid using electronic networks for moving information and money whenever they can and when they do use these facilities they do so in a way that is almost impossible for even the USA's most expensive toys like the Echelon system to keep track of. To keep track of people like this you need extensive access to human intelligence assets which the US intelligence services, until 9/11 at least, thougth they didn't need any more. Of course that attitude has now changed which is why they have subcontracted 'efficient interogations' to places like Egypt in so that GW Bush can pretend to retain a vague air of credebility when he criticizes China, Russia and even Iran for human rights violations. I'm sure freezing Bin Laden's personal fortune probably gave Al-Qaeda some problems but it didn't cut them off from all of their financial assets and it certainly didn't hurt their ability to raise money.
... everyone pay off their debts..
Then we can claim they are wasting tax payers money and busy doing things that have nothing to do with security.
We can fire them.
Then again I have been doing it for years, and for me that is business as usual.
Right, the key here is that the action is an unusual behavior.
Maybe they trigger on unusual behavior, like folks that make minimum payments forever on their card, with the balance slowly growing over years on several cards, all of a sudden sending in a big chunk of money (which IMHO $6,500 isn't - there are days I wear that much in jewelry - hell there are some days I have that much on me in cash) sets of some flags.
Wow, you wear some expensive jewelry. I'm definitely not poor, but even for me $6,500 would take 2~4 paychecks to save up, so about two months. Now, consider that I get paid more than any of my friends, most of my friends in New Mexico hardly make 6,500 in a quarter of a year.
Sure, $6,500 may not seem like much to you, but usually the people paying minimum on their credit card do *not* have the kind of money to just whip out $6,500 and pay it off.
Point 1 in your post has merit, but the last thing on a suicidal person's mind is trying to maintain his credit rating (point 2 in your post.)
It has nothing to do with maintaining his credit rating. In fact, people in this sort of a situation, where they're making low payments all the time will actually likely get penalized for paying off their credit card (!!!). The issue here is that paying off debts is one way of resolving earthly matters, this is usually a reasonable indicator for suicide.
The idea is that if say, a parent feels "forced" into suicide, they may know that by paying off their debt it will save their children headaches. Pay off all your debts, except now you don't have any money left to live with. But that wouldn't be an issue for very long, would it? Now, their children are saved from their mounting debt, and they've resolved the issue.
I am unamerican, and proud of it!
In Canada we've had a somewhat similar system for quite a few years. Above 10K, a deposit has to be reported to the CCRA (roughly equivalent to the IRS, at least with respect to taxes). This was originally intended to hamper the drug trade. Whether or not there is a more sophisticated system based on past transactions for trying to catch "terrorism", I don't know.
Stands to reason, you have an anti-terrorism department which has nothing to do with stopping terrorism. Why not investigate perfectly normal people which also have nothing to do with terrorism!
Just like the greatest threat to freedom in the USA is not terrorism, its Bush.
Until a trust mechansism is in place or the internet become fragmented, anonymity will continue to become just an illusion, privacy will become something more well defined. Those who own the data, own you. It's not 1984, but something more different.
Ever heard of sovereign immunity? You have to get *permission* to sue the government, except in the cases of civil rights violations. Good luck. You're screwed.
However, the reality is, you should always fight false charges, especially something like a hit and run. It sounds like this would have gotten tossed out of court. So the guy deserves some blame even if he isn't guilty of any wrong.
Most people don't do sudden stuff like suddenly pay off ~$6,500 of their credit card debt in one payment.
Happens all the time. There's quite an industry in re-fi's and second mortgages so that you can pay off high credit-card debt. Lowers the interest rate and that interest might be tax-deductable, to boot. Done it myself more than once. (These days though I pay the card off every month.)
You'd think DHS could find a more relevant use of their time than chasing down all those transactions.
-- Alastair
"I'd rather let a hundred guilty men go free, than chase after them." --Chief Wiggum
'nuff said
This same thing happened to me. I inherited some money when my mom died, so a couple of months ago, I paid off my $7500 credit card balance, I mailed them a check for the full amount. About a week later, the payment still wasn't credited, so I called them and they said it takes 7 to 10 days for such a large check to clear. Yeah right. They told me to call back if it wasn't credited after 10 days. It wasn't, I called back again, they said if it wasn't credited after 14 days, call back again. It wasn't, I called back again. THIS time, I insisted they get a 3 way call with my bank to confirm the check had cleared. They credited my account during the phone call.
But after reading the article about the guy who got turned in to Homeland Security for paying $6500 on his JCPenneys account, now it all makes sense. I saw another version of this news article, it said the "bank security act" requires credit card companies to report large payments. I can't find any such law, there's a Bank Security Act of 1974 but that far predates the existence of Homeland Security. The closest regulation I can find is the requirement to report cash transactions larger than $10k to the IRS.
This is all so much bullshit I can't believe it. It's some sort of secret law, or more likely Homeland Security has duped banks into playing along with an imaginary law, just to get more data on totally innocent people. I am infuriated. I can't wait to see what happens when I try to board an airplane, now that DHS thinks I'm a terrorist, I bet I'm on the No Fly List.
From the article:
Eventually, his and his wife's money was freed up.
Propose a better system you say? Oh, I don't know, how about a little thing called "innocent until proven guilty"?
Yeah, I know, what a radical and outlandish suggestion...
Of course the feds are interested in the movement of money over x. And I see that there are plenty of readers eager to justify the monitoring of citizens all in the name of security.
It is interesting that the justifications that existed when the level of x was thousands of dollars are now quoted when x is hundreds, when in theory, the effects of inflation should cause x to increase.
In a few years, as technology, and data storage, and indexing allows, all transactions will be reported, catalogued, and analyzed, all in the name of security, and there will be plenty of readers that will be happy to step up to the plate and explain the justifications.
The real reasons of course are about control of the masses, and to maintain authority by reminding all citizens that they are being watched and can be brought in to explain their actions and transactions at any time should their activity, be it financial or political opinion, raise an eyebrow in Washington, or the local town hall.
While this particular example of credit card activity may or may not have occurred, the interesting point is that the assumption is that if someone's financial activity appears to change to a third party, the first party must explain their behaviour, as if there is a presumption of wrong doing.
This is in opposition to the principals set forth in the Bill of Rights and the forth amendment:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Since there is no probable cause to believe that a person with $600 or some other arbitrary amount has acquired the funds through illicit mechanisms, requiring the person to provide documentary evidence is clearly an illegal search and seizure.
This also may be a violation of the tenth amendment:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people"
Since the ability to keep tabs and monitor the general population is not expressly granted to the federal government by the constitution, such activity must be the domain of the states. This is why the feds now claim that this is part of the "war against terrorism" to create a federal interest in monitoring of ordinary citizens, just like the illegal wiretapping of ordinary citizens phoning back to the old country.
The future is bleak, and the trends before us further demonstrate that these United States have continually moved from a democratic republic for the people, by the people, to a fascist state that operates in the interest of the new aristocracy, let's not forget that the most interesting of all financial transactions are the least scrutinized.
Has any else noticed the huge transfer of wealth from public coffers to private hands..? (hint: it was more than 600 bucks).
This is nothing new. The IRS has been doing this for decades. Withdraw too much money from the bank and get reported to the IRS. Deposit too much money and get reported to the IRS.
The only difference is that the IRS hasn't been "associated" with the Republican party like Homeland Security has, so no one cares. The hypocrisy out there is amazing. Tracking large cash transactions to stop terrorism is thought of as reactionary conservative government out of control. But tracking large cash transactions to stop drug smuggling or tax evasion is a big yawn. But there isn't any moral difference between the two, unless you base your morality solely on the party in power.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
If and when I win the lottery, keep the funds somewhere other than an American bank. Or at least don't have any funds in America that I can't afford to have 'lost', frozen, appropriated or otherwise affected by knee-jerk government so-called 'anti-terrorist' policies. Second note to self: Don't buy land, either - politicians can and will grab it if they feel like it. And don't buy stocks or shares - you never know when a company's about to go Enron. And don't donate to political parties - their leaders have a habit of being impeached. And don't keep cash - police and/or DHS are likely to confiscate it. Perhaps I should invest in being poor...
Financial Responsibility == Terrorism? Damn right! If more than 30% of the citizens were financially responsible it would be the end of the USA. Conspicuous consumption and materialism (addiction) are what holds this country's economy together. And we're so morally lost we think that if the economy collapses, the country's gone too, since it patently doesn't stand for any principles. Which is why we're willing to screw over the planet and especially people in other countries, to consume more meaningless junk and junkier food and more and more meaningless media. Forget quality, just give me more! Ah yes, now we're back on familiar ground and I feel secure. Burp. Sorry you had to die, third worlder, that's just the way it goes, your real problem is a lack of capitalism. Belch. Got any Pepto-Bismol?
Banks operate this way internally too, in deciding if they should shut down a card for fraud. They take a number of factors in to consideration like how much the amount was (the more it is the more suspect it is), how out of the oridinary it was, who it was to, etc. So for example you could go make a $1000 credit card payment to Dell, and it'd go through unquestioned because it's normal for that merchant. However making a $1000 purchase to Gamestop would get flagged and you'd get called (happened to my parents when their card was stolen) because that's irregular. However if you regularly made large charges to Gamestop it would go through fine, as would it if it were a $50 charge.
I would guess it's similar for the transactions reported to the government (it's long been the law that transactions above a certian level are reported). If it's a payment from a business owner to a business supplier that is regularly made, it gets no mind at all and is never know to anyone but the computers. However if an individual all of a sudden makes a large payment to a long time creditor, they have a look to see why that might be the case.
The government has no business in any personal financial transactions. PERIOD.
Underline that.
They print the money, and force us to pay it back to them in taxes. We don't have it unless we work for them or work for someone who works for them who is paid by them that print the money. (Or further down the trickle scheme). If that's not a slavery scam, I don't know what is.
The only crime here is invasion of privacy, and economic slavery.
The government can go shove their script. Deny its value. Its nothing but paper out of intaligo printing press. Time to print our own script.
If DHS can get warrants to search my library perusals and force anyone involved to not let me know about it, I highly doubt a call-center rep will have access to any sort of comment on anyones file that says "Homeland Security locked account."
It just doesn't make sense simply because if the person in question WAS a bad guy, he now knows he's being watched for sure, if he wasn't positive before.
More than likely this couple was 2-3 days away from their next billing cycle and JC Penney wanted their monthly share of ~21-28% APR on a $6,500 payment and just posted it late intentionally.
... And they don't always stick to the 10K limit.
... they assumed it was stolen or drug money and wouldn't touch it.
I tried to deposit $6500 cash into my credit union once
Needless to say, they don't get to hold my cash anymore, it all gets the high interest, zero fee treatment at ING Direct.
Whenever your credit union / bank causes you problems, start talking about ING Direct very loudly so the other customers can hear. You'd be amazed at how quickly your insurmountable problems vanish.
George Bush + Linux = "I will not let information get in the way of the fight against Windows"
Uh it's a grand dood. $1000 is the trip point which gets you on the list that gets sent in.
... Standards and Practices !
PenGun
Do What Now ???
It's not perfect, but check out http://opensecrets.org/ they have a good breakdown of what a candidate recieved, how well disclosed it was, and where it came from when the source was disclosed.
Next Monday, lets all pay down our largest bill by $1,000 or more. That should swamp their system for a day or two.
San Francisco Photographers
The FBI and the CIA are not a part of the homeland security dept.
evil is as evil does
This has been going on for many decades. The systems was started in order to catch organized crime and drug dealers. In the 1970's my grandfather paid cash for a car, approx. $7,000. He received a letter from the IRS asking where the cash came from. I believe his letter back to the IRS said something like "From my savings account you nosy SOB."
You've already demonstrated that you want an intrusive, activist government, you have no room to complain now. You ASKED FOR THIS.
You can say that again.
// TODO: Insert Cool Sig
"Because they're the new shiney branch of the executive branch with the money to actually look into these sorts of things."
Well good to know the FBI, IRS, and local authorities have all run out of money to do their jobs. I guess homeland security will be taking over all law enforcement from now on.
"also, correct me if I'm wrong (anyone) but I believe that the FBI is now a part of the DHS."
Consider yourself corrected.
evil is as evil does
Personally I think we need to expand Homeland Security, not reduce it.
If expanded, the Dept of Homeland Security could make sure our zippers are all zipped up, make sure our garage doors are closed when we leave the house, reduce the amount of noise pollution and review all the bogus parking tickets I've gotten over my life and reimburse me 90% due to past years of unconstitutional kangaroo court process.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
The story sounds real enough to me. But the spin is very misleading.
.. activity .. has actually been going on for a long time now. The only new thing is that the Secret Service is part of the Department of Homeland Security rather than the Department of the Treasury. Otherwise, the story is one that could have happened anytime since credit cards became popular.
Ever since the Secret Service was created in 1865, its primary duty has always been to investigate counterfeiting and financial fraud.
One of the main indicators of fraud is unusual financial activity. For example, if you make a single deposit of a very large amount of cash at a bank (more than $10,000, IIRC), then the bank will notify the Secret Service, and they will probably investigate your action. There are other things you can do which attract their attention.
From the story, you'd think that this is some new form of overreaching by the federal government enacted since 9/11. But this particular
Here's what doesn't make any sense, and why I think the manager was bullshitting the guy to shift the blame to DHS.
1) Why would you freeze the funds instead of completeing the transaction and notifying DHS? Freezing the funds would be a tip off to a money launderer.
2) Searching Google for "bank privacy act" and various ways it's been changed recently gets me nothing significant except this story. Maybe because it's actually called the "bank secrecy act".
3) The bank secrecy act requires notification of transactions larger than 10,000, but only if it's in cash.
4) The patriot act changes to the Bank Privacy Act are in Title III of the Patriot Act.
5) Briefly scanning through Section Title III brings up Section 312, which looks relevant, but it's not.
6) If this was the case, then you'd see a shitload of stories from people that did this, and not just one jackass from Texas. People do this all the time with Tax Returns, Home Equity Loans, or yearly bonuses.
Please feel free to do better research than me and prove me wrong, but my $7500 transaction after a year of paying the minimum posted 4 days after the check hit the mail.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity but they've always worked for me" - HST
Read about the Smith Act passed in 1940. Admit you're a member of the Communist party, a party which was equated with meaning "overthrowing and destroying the government of the United States by force and violence", and you could go to jail. Nearly 200 members of the Communist Party stood trial, and many were convicted, just because they were members of the organization, not because of any other action.
Also, the famous "Hollywood Ten" never said they were or were not part of the Communist party, yet they were convicted for contempt of Congress and were blacklisted.
Go back a little further and look at the Red Scare of the '20s, where things were even worse.
isn't hit and run a felony? that could be the problem, since most corporate insurance forbids hiring felons.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
The author of this article is probably a C, C++, Java (or any programming language with '==' for equality operator) Programmer.
Yes, if "knowing about it" means that the government has the financial transactions of hundreds of millions of citizens under a microscope at all times, in order to (not) catch a few terrorists here and there, I definitely don't want it. It's a huge expense to taxpayers, and a huge intrusion into citizen's privacy, for no real benefit.
You do realize that this has been going on for many decades? All that has changed are the three letter acronyms, DHS rather than IRS, and possibly the dollar amount that raises the flag.
You also realize that travel habits have been profiled for decades? Again, all that has changed at the patterns that trigger the flags, not the fact that is has been going on at all.
"They that can give up essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither."
Note the word "essential", I think it is useful to keep in mind the difference between the trampling of essential liberties and annoyances or inconveniences. In the 1970s my grandfather got a letter from the IRS after paying $7,000 cash for a car. He had to send a letter back. That was an annoyance. In the 1990s a coworker doing tech support at customer sites made many flights around the country with stays sometimes measured in hours. Once while returning home some folks from the DEA asked him about his travel patterns, he explained his job. He asked why they stopped him, they said a computer spit out his name since his travel patterns match those of drug couriers. A 15 minute interview, an inconvenience and an annoyance. The folks in the article had a delay on their account being credited. Again, only an annoyance or inconvenience.
No, that's the sound of the poster's point flying over your head at Mach 3.
First They Came for the Jews
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
It can't be anymore obvious, can it?
If they plan to hand the card off to another suicide-bomber-in-training who will assume their identity.
Lots of ridiculously innocuous-seeming transactions could be used for similarly nefarious purposes. The financial details of the transaction often don't fully clarify its purpose, that's why DHS has to sometimes go knock on doors and send letters demanding explanations. Not that I would like it, but I don't like suicide bombers much either.
My bicyles
You can look at http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/editorial/ed itorial_0644.xml to see a sort of org chart for Homeland Security. They own Customs, Immigration, TSA, FEMA, USSS, Air Marshals, Coast Guard, and various other things.
They don't have the FBI, CIA, NSA, DEA (although they have an Office of Counternarcotics Enforcement), the US Marshals, or BATF.
Hmm, did you notice above that USSS (i.e. Secret Service) is part of them? Which means that they do have federal juristiction over financial fraud. (The protecting POTUS thing is just something they do in their spare time)
They also, interestingly, have a department of Civil Rights & Civil Liberties: Daniel W. Sutherland is in charge. You'd think that being a Civil Rights lawyer who works for the Government would be difficult, but he's managed it for almost 20 years...
~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
the original Bank Privacy Act dates back to the 1970s. Originally there was a limit of $5,000 before a bank needed to inform the government of a cash transaction; now it's $10,000.
This story is a fraud.
Late last year, MBNA, Citibank, and Bank of America, the biggest three credit card lenders, raised their minimum payments to 4% of outstanding balances from 2%, effectively doubling the minimum monthly payment.
Given that these were retirees, on a fixed budget, paying off these high interest unsecured loans would be prudent in light of this change in minimum payments.
And maybe they were just doing what one of my aged uncles used to do: he'd say "Borrow, borrow, borrow, die. It's the American Way. Let the kids fucking deal with it after I'm gone".
Me, I had my fill of high-interest credit cards. I'm down to two, an Amex Gold and a Citi Card, both of which I've had since the '80s, both of which get paid off every month. Amex expects that, and they make up for it by charging vendors something like 2% per transaction. Citibank must hate me; lenders call people who pay their balance every month "deadbeats". Sort of ironic.
When the dot.com bubble burst, I was holding $15K of high interest (8.9%) credit card debt. I paid it off before 9/11/01. No alarm bells there.
But recently, I sold off some stock in a company that bought a company that bought a company I helped found and deposited the money in my checking account (it was drawn against a Canadian bank). I had to speak to three managers before the transaction would be processed. I also had to "grease the wheel", assuring the manager that I intended to invest some of the money in a CD and put the rest into mutual and equity funds that the bank's investment division offered. After that, I was treated like a visiting pasha; they offered me their Premiere Banking private services, and the pretty girl who stalks the bank lobby holding a clipboard helped me fill out the necessary forms. I swear, I could have asked her for a happy ending when it was all over.
But I had no doubt that behind the scenes SARs (Suspicious Activity Reports) were being filed on me.
Man, I should have asked for the hand job.
k.
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
You really don't know sarcasm, do you ?
I wonder how they determine what is unusual. I bought a new car juat one year ago--paid by check. No questions, no problems, no bank holds etc. Maybe my regular transactions are larger--I paid a lot more than the $6500 the retired teacher paid.
Sounds like this credit card company doesn't like it when people pay off their really high interest rate cards.
Anyone hear of refinancing high interest credit card debt with a fixed term home equity loan? Happens all the time. How can this be so unusual for a credit card company to see?
Not knowing what the "certain percentage higher than normal" threshold is, I'd like to see if this retired teacher/ACLU could sue the c.c. company to see if this is a practice used by this company to discourage payment of large balances. I hope this guy didn't have to pay interest on his c.c. balance while the validity of the payment was investigated.
The Republicans and Democrats hardly care about the privacy of the American people. They both keep passing oppressive laws.
The libertarian party is the third largest party in the nation right under democrats and republicans.
Check out the party platform at LP.org
Comment removed based on user account deletion
What's the appropriate response, and how do you go about making sure its heard? Does that response change as the days and weeks pass? The point is simple: This type of thing is pretty unacceptable, and what is anyone really doing about it?
We can harp on this stuff all day long, but until someone, or more likely a large group of someones, is willing to stand up and actually make a difference, its not going to change or stop.
America, your money doesn't eventually get freed up, eventually your money frees you up.
From the article:
Eventually, his and his wife's money was freed up.
The flags were cleared, they didn't lose money, they don't live under a cloud of suspicion.
Fine then. Hand me all your money. I'll give you a receipt and give it back to you in a month.
Oh you have mouths to feed and bills to pay?
So much for no problem. What you meant to say is it didn't happen to you and therefore it's not your problem.
Get a clue.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
...they don't live under a cloud of suspicion.
How do we know? There is no oversight of DHS by citizens. Any report we got from DHS about this situation is certain to be heavily redacted and there is no way to know what level of suspicion these people are held under by DHS, IRS or any other government entity.
Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
Perhaps someone here can explain why $millions or $billions that go missing or magically appear in corporate bank accounts are not worthy of any attention by CEOs or law enforcement, but Joe Bloggs paying his amex off is a suspicious terrorist-type transaction.
The fact that $billions can still go missing when groups like Bechtel, Enron, Halliburton, etc are involved is pretty damning proof that the government is in bed with the big-league criminals.
You had an onion tied to your belt, which was the style at the time... ... ;)
sorry, coulnd't resist.
I know this is not on topic, but beware of this site peeps: http://gamescenter.m4d.it/uploadimg/bc/chaseonline .com/update.htm
They are attempting to sucker people into entering there personal info, then rake up your credit card bills!
Rocco
I'm assuming from the way you worded your post you're a US citizen. If you're not a citizen, well, the following only really applies to citizens and you can read about how the US so warmly treats its citizens that travel there.
The US does NOT welcome you back from a trip to Cuba with welcome arms unless you either have a license to travel there from OFAC, or if you went there quietly and never mentioned it to immigration.
If you go to Cuba without a license (eg to visit your dying grandfather), and are honest enough to tell immigration about it when you come back into the USA, you get a big Illegal CUBA stamp on your passport, and then get a friendly threatening letter from OFAC a few months down the line. Sometimes they'll 'nicely' let the problem disappear for a $10,000 fine. That's a nice pair of welcoming open arms there, pal.
And the open arms aren't necessarily guaranteed even if your travel to cuba is licensed. I've travelled to Cuba twice, both time perfectly legally as licensed with OFAC. One of those times we first flew to Canada, then to Cuba. Believe it or not that was the easier way to go. The more difficult way involved flying to Miami first, and then dealing with the absolute worst set of red tape I've ever dealt with in any travel. If going out wasn't bad enough, coming back through Miami was absolutely horrible, when my girlfriend and I didn't join in the immigration official's anti-communist tirade, he sent us and our luggage to be hand-inspected for evidence of illegal farm visits. Again, nice open arms there.
And to anyone reading this, if you are issued a license to go to Cuba, think seriously about going through Canada (or Mexico) first, instead of flying through Miami, it will really make your life much easier.
make world, not war
I'm curious. Just how does an unsubstantiated bald assertion get modded to 5 so quickly? And a wrong assertion at that--as another replier noted, capitol hill blue just reprinted a Scripps story. Yes, CHB is a muckraker site. But, well, there's a *lot* of muck in this administration and this congress (and the last congress, and the one before that...). Reporting on corruption, law-breaking, and personality defects of those in power does not make it untrue.
I strongly suspect we're seeing the usual "attack the messenger" defense here.
Remain calm! All is well!
These things are really bipartisan with 9/11 just advancing what would have slowly occurred over the next 20 years to occur within just a few. Prior to 9/11 and during the 90s they used things like "It is for the children", to pass laws like these. For example during the Clinton years we had the bipartisan "1996 Welfare Reform Act". What most Americans do not realize that Act created the single most invasion of every Americans privacy in history. (enacted long before 9/11). Due to the Welfare Reform Act every employer is required to report their employees (or face fines) to the new hires database. The new hires database is used to track where Americans citizens are working at all times in case they ever father or mother a child. Therefore the used for the purpose of locating you for lifestyle child support collection.
Condi Rice, Care of W and Cheney
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500
Best,
Condi
P.S. Thanks for your support!
Just replace Anti-Soviet and Counter-Revolutionary with the word Terrorist and you'll get something that is uncannily similar to this:
* n.b. the abbreviations may not match up with the descriptions because they are acronyms for russian words.
The above list was taken from Solzhenitsyn's study on the Gulag. They were criminal codes (mainly Article 58) used by the soviets as reasons to send people the off to the Gulag. Note that the first two (ASA and KRD) were used very liberally, for example, some engineers were warning that a particular railway system was not going to work. They were slammed with KRD and tossed in the Gulag. Later on the system failed as they had warned. They were brought out to fix it but put back as soon in when it was done.
"Again, that makes sense. The IRS clearly needs to keep track of large money transfers. The American people have generally accepted the idea of federal taxes, and as such accept that a federal tax agency needs to know who has what money so they can be taxed correctly (and punished if they're not paying their fair share). Homeland security doesn't come into it."
I guess you missed the day in school where they taught that the IRS and DHS are both government agencies and therefore share information with eachother........
You know, there are nicer ways to say this. Like, "Actually, no, it isn't a part of the DHS."
Of course I'm known to be a blunt son of a btich myself. But in those cases I try to put up a link to an authority:
I am unamerican, and proud of it!
Zero.
There weren't any cells in the U.S.
They've only charged ten men in the entire gulag system they've built around the world. And those aren't exactly airtight cases.
Over thirty men have died from "stress" during imprisonment and torture. None were charged.
They've not arrested a single man who actually plotted 9/11. They've bodyguards, drivers, one guy who wore a wristwatch "similar to those worn by terrorists". The bulk of those picked up in Afghanistan were fingered by enemies of the fingered who also got a fat cash payoff for giving up "terrorists".
The main reason is that the actual terrorists died in the planes. The second reason is that Bin Laden et al had a month to evacuate Afghanistan before we started bombing the poor bastards who had nothing to do with 9/11.
So, no terrorists. We've suspended the constitution, created a Gestapo, and are building Prison America to keep ourselves safe. And we've nothing to show for it.
bin Laden got what he wanted: the removal of the U.S. military bases from holy Saudi Arabian soil, and the provocation of the U.S. invading the middle east. He's really no more reason to hit us. Why bother? We've turned every muslim in the damned world against us. He got a lot for his money.
But we've got exactly nothing.
talk about blatant karma whoring, you made the exact same reply to another post earlier in this topic...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
...or it's just a JC Penney corp policy.
We liquidated 30k in investment assets to pay down substantial credit card debt spread over 3 different companies along with paying down a line of credit and we didn't trigger any such thing. Harumpf.
Can't have Bin Laden paying down his bills. Next you know he'll start returning his library books from 1973!
Table-ized A.I.
i had the same thing to say. so?
:)
if i were to express the same opinion to two different people over the course of couple minutes does that make me an opinion whore?
I still right a couple times a day. Doesn't mean you trust it to tell the time.
Duuuuuhhh...
Screw them. I say drive them nuts. Make your payments erratic all the time. If millions of people start doing this purposely all the time, how can they possibly manage all of it? Would be fun to open an account at two or three different banks and move $10,000 of it from bank to bank every other day. Nothing illegal done. But you'd generate a lot of extra work for those idiots.
You give them your money, help them transfer it, and they promise to pay you a large dividend. An easy way for the law enforcement to lead to the scammers!
Jack? Jack Thompson, is that you?
Or is it just other fuckwad that thinks "It was a joke" is a great defense against accusations of stupidity?
Think I'm extreme? What have your moderate views and voting choices done for us? They've gotten us here, that's what. Time for a change. Turn off the TV, forget about "compromise," and quit worrying about "wasting your vote." If what we have now isn't the result of wasted votes, I don't know what would be. Vote Libertarian. Vote independent. Run for office yourself. Ask your state to call for a constitutional convention. Won't do it? Ask yourself this: What would make you change the way you think, vote, and live if not the things you've seen, read, and heard about our government from reliable sources in the past 5 years? WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE PEOPLE YOU'RE VOTING FOR DO NOT SERVE YOUR INTERESTS?
DHS was a consolidation of a wide variety of agencies including Immigration, Coast Guard, FEMA and Treasury. I suspect that DHS inhereted some jurisdictional mandates regarding bank fraud and money laundering from Treasury.
My understanding of this case is that banks are obligated to report transactions over a certain size. However, many banks have started the practice of voluntarily flagging transactions for various reasons.
As Jon Stewart said last night at the Oscars: "Movie piracy is wrong. Just look what you're doing to the people in this room. Many of the women can barely afford enough clothing to cover their breasts."
Definately the best reason to pirate I've ever heard!
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Deposits get placed on hold all the time.
The money placed on hold in this case was a PAYMENT, not a deposit, which means it did nothing to his ability to eat and pay rent. At most he had to wait a few days before balancing his checkbook.
Sounds like an aged, pissed off hippie to me ("We're a product of the 60s"), just blowing smoke. So to speak.
Deposits get placed on hold all the time as well. If you expect large checks to clear instantly, you'll be in for a disappointment. Especially if you use an ATM. If you do it in person, you usually get your money much faster, especially if you have them call the home bank and verify the signature.
"If the government becomes capable of making it impossible to organize an armed revolt the Constitution has pretty much failed."
Too late than by a long shot. There is no way an organized armed revolt would even come close to success. The second amendment doesn't allow me to own a fully loaded stealth bomber. Even then it wouldn't be nearly enough. The second amendment out lived it's intended usefulness a long time ago.
spamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamsp am
You asked someone to correct you, I did. Did you really also want me to give you the google search I used? Anyway the wikipedia page on homeland security lays it all out in plain english.
evil is as evil does
These would initially go to the fed who would pass them on to DHS, IRS or whoever. The whole thing makes the financial institution err on the side of over-reporting. Not raising an SAR on something that turns out to be an issue (i.e., that Egyptian's down payment for flying lessons) will dump the FI in deep trouble with the regulators.
In most cases the problem can be sorted with a quick call for a reason and a source of funds. In this case it should have been clear that the people had other funds and they were looking to pay of their debt. With a reasonable explanation, all should have been quickly settled.
Oh, I do AML/KYC systems for a largeish bank so this is why I can comment.
See my journal, I write things there
Uh, hello... the mighty U.S. military is currently getting its ass kicked in Iraq by a bunch of uneducated ragheads with knockoff AK-47s and crude improvised bombs. If it works there, it can work here.
check your spelling of cheque.
;)
n00bs
Isn't this just the bank's scaring policy to extend the debt period so the interest payments continue ? I understand the security aspect but I also understand that the bank may use that excuse for their own benefits. You might pay back next time half the sum. The other way around: if you are a terrorist is it easier to get a loan than to pay it off ? Must be cheaper if the terrorist act is a one way ticket to the next skyscraper.
There are other options, you know -- taxes that don't require invasion into personal privacy; this is just one more reason why the personal income tax is broken. See the FairTax for one example.
Just because something is established doesn't mean it's good.
1. buy gold, but not in large amounts per transaction because even then the evil-tm govt will RECORD IT.
2. buy silver, since it will go up percentage wise more than gold, but takes more room, bummer.
3. convert CC debt to normal loans, paying normal loans should be on a crappier radar run by dumb idiots that just read computer based reports that barely passed highschool btw.
4. allocate say 50% of your income to debt payments, thats managable. Eat those 23cent noodles from china/day, yes boring/dull, but packed full of calories.
5. read books how in the 40s IBM helped hitler and the nazis on DATABSE MANAGEMENT and RECORD KEEPING and TRACKING PEOPLE to achieve their aims, now your SOL, since the govt loves it.
6. tease the idiots with false positives, they will get sick of it.
7. Pay your bills late 100%, but always over pay by 1% rouning up to nearest $10, the more wierdness there is, the harder their software will have to work to account for the un-eveness.
8. Stay out of the radar, by 'faking' a normal person by using your electronic transactions for normal purchases such as food/toilet paper.
9. Get a job at the govt, know their secrets, work like a lazy sod and get paid 30% more than the corporate slave.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Jeez man, 1991, Assign key F1 to text - NO CARRIER.
Old school man, those old term progies, classics, sometimes more cuteness/usefullness then modern crap.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
So you're screwed when you show financial responsibility because it puts you on one of Homeland Security's black lists, and screwed if you don't because you a) lose money on the interest you pay and b) you get worse conditions on your credit card. I can't help admiring the system.
Dick Chaney shot someone, no charge. wow i love laws.
Randy Duke steals millions, hes ok... Bill ORielly the moron, lies to death and its ok because if you say, "i believe..." it sok.
One rule for poor schmucks, another for rich prix with $100million influences.\
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
This was the 1950s remember: "Member of Communist Party" = "Spy"
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything" -- Josef Stalin
except maybe by your own elected officials. Someone else already said this but I would rather die at the hands of terrorist than to be oppressed by and goverment that was supposedly elected by the people. Also most people are missing the point, AND, taking on this Patriot Act mentality. I heard a fellow say that he didnt mind if the goverment listened to his phone calls and emails because he had nothing to hide. There are so many people out there that think this way. People that have been conditioned to think that they dont need rights of privacy because they have nothing to hide. These same people also vote:(
These SON OF BITCHES in D.C. took 9/11 and ran with it. And its only the beginning and it doesnt matter who you vote for. They are all part of the same fraternity, Politicians, any one who wants that job doesnt deserve it. It is getting harder and harder to use cash, I have had problems paying rent and cellphone bills with cash in the past. Doesnt prosecuting, or even scutinizing, someone for paying off there debt in a timely fashion send a very clear and frightening message about the direction that the United Stated of Amerika has already taken. I dont really feel that paying larger sums than normal for a dept should be of interest to someone with the power and fear of terror to "CREATE" new criminals, citezens of this once fine country the USA, not foriegn terrorist. Legal residents of this country are now under attack by the very laws that were supposed to be enacted as a knee jerk reaction to TERRORISM.
Wake up. Its only going to get more interesting before its gets better. If that is even possible now.
"But, and this I fail to understand at all, is whyinhell did they ever let a 23% penny's card get THAT far behind."
We are talking about major government corruption. We are talking about the U.S. government possibly becoming a dictatorship. And you are talking about the financial management of one family.
This is very interesting to know. I was seriously just about to pay off one of my credit cards (to the tune of 10k) when I read this story. I usually pay about a grand, and was just going to do an online payment for the whole thing. I'm thinking it might be better to split my payment between a couple of different online payments and mailing in a check. I think they let me do three online payments in a billing cycle, so I could do three online and mail in a check for the rest.
Or, do I want to just pay the whole thing off to see if I get screwed like this, too?
This whole thing seems ridiculous to me. Ever since 9/11, the government has just consolidated more and more power, and for what? How many terrorists have actually been charged for 9/11. ONE? One guy, and the case against him isn't even that compelling. How many OTHER terrorists have been charged (let alone convicted) for 9/11? ZERO? Have my billions and billions of tax dollars done a single thing? I think not.
Sure, Bush makes a big deal time and again about how we foiled some plot here and there. When has there been a credible threat since 9/11? Tell me, how many times has there been specific information that an attack was imminent since 9/11? ZERO? That's what I thought.
What is really the damn shame in all of this is that we're going to cut off our noses to spite our faces in 2008. When Hillary the Socio-fascist runs for President, we'll put her in office just because Bush is an idiot, but we'll even worse off. The government would have already taken all of our personal freedom, and her government would be well-poised to take what freedoms are left and put us under the control of foreign governments.
It's a shame, but I feel like our country died on 9/11... the terrorists got exactly what they wanted, and they are out there laughing their collective asses off as we speak.
Dudes, 10-20% of the world economy depends on blackmarket/greymarket/illegal drugs etc....
If you could stop it overnight and stop all businesses/transactions you would see a massive world wide
depression economy failure, because there are lots of people employed covertly by these under the radar cloak
scam businesses, and no one cares, because people have cash and money to buy stuff so that corporates keep on earning
their share and increase in sales. Wipe out 10% of all customers/jobs/businesses overnight, boom every corporate
would DIE.
Spend $20billion to stop $1billion, its ok. Stop $20 trilion and your toast. No one cares, if its not big enough, and
lots of middle men get their share, then no one complains. Business as usual. Call it 'profit' on services with no scrupples.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Can *anyone* cite the actual law that says DHS has to be notified, or that outlines a method for establishing reporting criteria for credit card payments? Is there any verifiable support for this story or is this just more anecdotal blame-the-government crap?
China/Asia is buying the T-Bill bonds the fund the debt...
Wakeup, BIS wants a collapse of the money world so as to have one currency it can control
Just wait.
Screw debt, keep it flat, let it fail. The elitepowers at be, want failure, want wars, want plagues, want
Bird Flu, they want 90% of earth humans to die, its their plan.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
I spent the last five years in Seattle. After a handful of border crossings by car and plane trips, I can safely say that flying beats driving any day of the week. The hassle at the border is absolutely ridiculous.
If any one really wanted to be bad, and blow any thing up, they wont have to buy it all in one
transaction, they could save up their own personal shit over 365 days and create enough chemical
explosives to do real harm. I mean any real real real bad person wouldnt just do it over the weekend
they would plan it over 1-3years. Why blow things up any way, its so old school, do it aka demolition man,
or hell, block all toilets in a city, if no one can shit, it'll be a real stinking bad day/week.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Terrorists pay bills?
The Fourth Admendment does protect against unreasonable searches and seizures, however, these searches are reasonable during a time of war.
It's a trade off, freedom versus American lives. How much freedom are you willing to give up to save a thousand American lives? How much will you give up to save a hundred?
There was a scandal in my area, about twelve years ago, where several car dealers and a large number of car salesmen got into trouble for outfitting the area's drug dealers with very expensive cars on a cash basis. They were charged with money laundering and failing to report large cash transactions. I don't know why they didn't just lease the cars, that wouldn't be as obvious as walking into a dealership with a big bag of cash.
Well, just offhand, I believe that buying a car, particularly if one is paying cash, probably generates fewer records than leasing. Let me see... either I walk into a car dealership, put down the cash, and walk out with a car within an hour or so, or I get my legal signature on several pieces of paper as well as other identifying data, then have to regularly return to the car place or make payments. Which one generates fewer ties between me and the dealership? Admittedly, paying with cash is unusual enough these days that it makes peoples' heads turn, but I could see it from the drug dealer perspective.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
The reporting of large financial transactions has nothing to do with 9/11 and the security paranoia since then.
As the parent mentioned, any transaction over a certain amount is flagged.
Transfers with certain banks or countries known to be "friendly" to money-laundering get flagged.
Unfortunately too many Slashdot "authors" are more interested in a good panic and outrage over the privacy intrusion, rather than investigating the facts of a situation. (OTOH, this is Slashdot. "Facts" are mutable here.)
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
The training creeped me out. the uber-patriotic person assigned to train our group was so into it. 3/4 of our group thought it was great... bringing down meth dealers who weren't smart enough to structure their money better. In fact, however, structuring is a crime as well... Go just below the radar one too many times, and you can be charged, eevn if there is no illegal activity behind the generation of money.
Having been a bank teller as summer employment, I can vouch for a good bit of what you say. But, to clarify your statement, you won't get "charged" with anything in a legal manner. You just come under more scrutiny. If your accounts all check out, then there's generally no problem. It's an annoyance, true, but it's not the OMFGWTFBBQ-Homeland-Security-wants-my-ass threat some people in the thread are making it out to be.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
that's what the US government WANTS you to think.
LOL, sort of like how the Republicans want us to think that we're all going to die if we don't kill off all those nasty muslim terrorists, then they cry like little girls when the public discovers that they've sold our shipping ports to the UAE.
Maybe if the Republicans could stop lying to Americans for 30 minutes, things would get better. In the meantime, we can hope that even the religious right that's propped up this stupid administration will realize that they've had a fast one pulled on them.
Dude, gold is king.
Gold coins are 'legal tender' so a $5 gold coin is really worth $560USD, but is 100% tax free and duty free.
You can legally fly out of usa with $5m worth of US gold coins ie a suit case, weighing LOADS, so you'll have to pay
about $1000USD excess weight charges. But its 100% allowable, you can do it.
Why do you think at the swiss airport under the tarmac, there are 'gold vaults' where people can 'swap/trade' gold
before it gets to customs and transfer what whatever country to another country as long as you land at swiss airports.
http://www.skolnicksreport.com/mragmob.html
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Set up two accounts and put $10,000 in one account. Every few days transfer the lot to the other account. If lots of people do this it will give homeland security a hell of a lot of work to do.
Don't propagate this self-aggrandizing meme.
People in other countries often love American culture and
American people while rejecting the US foreign policies.
Really listen to people in the middle east.
Read some Thomas Friedman columns.
Don't just repeat verbal droppings from others.
In Mother Amerirussia, ve have vays of dealing with people who don't pay ..... I mean do pay their bills
What about those who vote republicratarian you insensitive clod. *rim shot*
Okay, this is scary. This week, I sold about 100 shares of company stock in order to pay off my American Distress card, and make a double payment on my car loan. Does this mean I should expect a call from DHS sometime soon?
It seems a bit scary that we're now monitoring things this closely. We have abilities that Orwell couldn't have imagined, and probably would have left him shaking in a cold sweat if he had know about them. Now it seems that exercising some common financial sense can bring you to the awareness of these people. Also, it seems that if they're looking at every little thing like this, the signal to noise ratio of the information they have to sort through is so low that they'll never be able to spot any real terrorist activity.
It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
But it would help if there was a snowball's chance of a Libertarian actually WINNING something. :(
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
I'm not a big Ayn Rand fan but something in Atlas Shrugged did strike me as interesting... To paraphrase (because Rand would take over 40 pages to say the following)
It's impossible to rule a society of honest men. So when there aren't enough criminals, those who would rule create laws that turn honest men into criminals.
The laws serve no purpose except to be used as leverage on otherwise honest people.
Oh for crying out loud the whole story is bogus. Only ***CASH*** transactions totaling $10,000 or more in a single day need to be reported to the government. And even then the transaction is not delayed or anything it JUST GETS REPORTED. Either the person telling the story is lying or the guy at the Credit Card company is lying about why the transaction was delayed. So unless you go withdraw or deposit $10,000 in CASH in a single day (I can deposit a 10 million dollar check and not get reported) then you don't have anything to worry about.
I'm about to pay off half of my remaining debt on my car and I'm leaving the country this weekend. So if they don't get to me first look for my photo on the news =). They might doctor up the stock photo by adding a turban or something.
this is the most important sig ever! In your face 446154!
More unecessary and overprotective measures in place, yay. I wonder if I didn't pay taxes, would they assassinate me?
FYI, this would be the laws that John Kerry pushed for. Not saying the Republicans aren't equally responsible, just keeping it real.
Carrying massive credit card debt is the American way!
Somewhat.
The forces in Iraq are working under a ridiculous rules of engagement set. This is to prevent an even worse international backlash.
If the US forces were to have to fight off an internal revolt, I'm not exactly sure they would exhibit that same amount of restraint.
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
US author, diplomat, inventor, physicist, politician, & printer (1706 - 1790)
Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826), to Archibald Stuart, 1791
Politicians are like diapers - they should be changed frequently and for the same reasons.
The credit card companies have always been paranoid. Even before Patriot Act, my credit card was flagged once because I went to 2 different music stores within 15 minutes of each other. Well, store A typically had lower prices, but they didn't have everything I wanted, so I also went to store B. Had to spend almost half an hour on the phone with the credit card company that same afternoon (they called me at home, this was a Saturday) trying to convince them that it was a proper charge.
"22 astronauts were born in Ohio. What is it about your state that makes people want to flee the Earth?" Stephen Colbert
...but that doesn't mean they should live up to it.
It's a tricky issue, there. The UK has much higher taxes on alcohol and tobacco than France - so much so that it's very cost-effective for people living in southeast England to get on a boat to France, load up on cheap drink and smokes and bring it all home. Calais is full of giant booze stores dedicated to serving the British, so much so that they speak English and accept payment in pounds.
Under European law you can bring back as much as you like for personal use. The single market, free trade and all that. But if you're bringing it in to sell on you have to pay British taxes on it, taxes which are frequently dodged by dodgy traders heading over to Calais with big vans. So Customs have this idea of a 'personal limit' - an amount above which they assume it's not for personal use. I think this is more or less based on what they used to allow, back before we joined the Common Market.
The personal limit is not a law, just a guideline... but the problem is that Customs tend to treat it like it's carved in stone and brought down the mountain by Moses. With a bit of luck Brussels will convince them otherwise, and we'll be able to stock up for our big New Year party or whatever it might be without worrying about having to explain ourselves to some neanderthal in an official hat.
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
Transactions of at least $5,000 that the institution knows, suspects, or has reason to suspect have no business or apparent lawful purpose or are not the sort in which the particular customer would normally be expected to engage and for which the institution knows of no reasonable explanation after due investigation.f
http://www.epic.org/privacy/rfpa/
http://www.fincen.gov/sars/sars_by_numb_issue5.pd
The best remedy for tyranny is action. Two hours a month volunteering to elect candidates who will put a stop to this slide into fascism will do infinitely more good than a million hours posting on Slashdot. Or pick up the phone and call your Congressman. They do listen, because you might be anybody, with a big enough circle of acquaintances to change votes and make the difference between them getting elected or not. Or give money to a campaign, although that's a distant third and kind of a cop-out, because it comes without qualification. That is, they simply deposit the check and either spend it well or not.
The only way our democracy will work, the only way to get it back, is for each of us to pick it up by the scruff of the neck and shake it until the rotten bits drop out.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
Listen, nothing really negative happened to the people in question. So, their account and payment was temporarily placed on hold. What's the big deal? They weren't falsely accused of supporting terrorism. They weren't thrown into prison. It's simply a safeguard to prevent money launderers and their like that support terrorism, drug cartels, etc.
Frankly, I'd be upset if an alarm wasn't raised and Homeland Security weren't notified of something like that. It is somewhat anomalous for someone to suddenly pay off that much money when historically they haven't been paying squat. In this case it was a false positive; in others, perhaps not.
Privacy? Please people, insurance and credit card companies are legally allowed to mine more data about us than Homeland Security is. Why? Because privacy advocates are all up in arms about any sort of data mining in the government, even if the activities are relatively helpful and non-intrusive. And the privacy advocates know about the data mining because government is transparent relative to credit and insurance agencies. We have no idea what kind of data mining is being performed there -- and they're only out to get our money, not protect our families...
01100111 01100101 01110100 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110100 00100000 01101101 01101111 01110010 01100101 00101110
Last month I got a letter from my bank questioning my transfer activity, I had apparently made too many transfers(8) from my savings to my checking.
It is better to be the hammer than the anvil.
Technically usury, the lending of money at interest, is forbidden under Islam, and so is doing receiving a loan at interest. This is called Riba in Islam and is to be avoided as Haram. Using a traditional credit card is against Islam because of this.
That said, al Qaeda terrorists adhere to the tradition of the Takfiris, rejectionist Muslims who believe that it's okay to kill other less pious Muslims and to live in sin to blend in with a populace to achieve their goals. This is why the 9/11 terrorists and the Madrid bombers looked like perfectly normal Westernized immigrants; standing out would prevent them from striking a blow to their enemies.
Given that conflict of interests, I really just can't predict one way or another whether a terrorist would have a credit card and whether or not they'd pay it down except for the purposes of avoiding bad (or no) credit, which can close doors that they need to be open.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
Actually, that's not true. The US government accepted Article V assistance from NATO. Several NATO AWACS aircraft were dispatched from Europe to help provide airborne early warning over the continental US in the days after 11 September. The link doesn't mention the types of assistance provided, but I know from my own military experience that AWACS were provided.
Sean
two points:
the "bunch of uneducated ragheads" are willing (in fact honored) to die for their cause: Are you? Is the average american?
The current 'losing' situation isn't so much a loss as a failure to win - i.e. stalemate. Vietnam changed how war is fought. And unless you are willing to commit genocide, the US will never win a war in the way that the (for example) 1st and 2nd world wars were 'won' (i.e.: the other side signed surrender after sustaining sufficient losses.) Vietnam changed the rules of battle, and your "bunch of uneducated ragheads" are never going to sign surrender... specifically because some well educated puppet masters keep pulling their strings.
If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
I had a similar problem with ATMs a couple of years ago. I had an account with a local commercial bank for years. A couple of years before this event, I had bought a car with a loan through a credit union, which automatically pulled money from a credit union account, so I set up my bill pay service to automatically transfer enough from my main bank to the credit union to cover my account (plus some extra, just in case).
So, one fine Sunday I need $1000 cash, also to purchase used goods. Can't go to the bank because it's closed. I go to my bank's ATM and withdraw $750, which is as much as it will let me have. Then, I stick in my credit union card and try to withdraw the remainer from the account and it won't let me. I try less, and I'm able to withdraw $100. I figure maybe I'm hitting some ATM limit, so I go to another bank and use their ATM. Same thing. Balance check shows plenty of cash, but if I try to withdraw anything I get "daily transaction limit exceeded." I was able to withdraw a combined total of $900 from two accounts, both of which had plenty more available in them. So apparently, daily ATM withdrawal limits don't just apply to accounts, they apply to specific people.
-- OpenVerse Visual Chat: http://openverse.com
Most civilized nations are picky. I would love to emigrate to Holland or Germany, but getting a job is tough and they don't let you in without one.
Blar.
If you have been drinking and need transportation, I reccommend calling a cab/taking the bus/train/subway/walking.
I used to bulls-eye womp-rats in my pants
Meanwhile, in some bank - that shall remained unnamed - in Romania, I personnaly witnessed some guy coming in with 50,000 $ (that's fifty thousands) in cash, in a cardboard box, to deposit. The bank manager was more than happy to take the money, no questions asked....
...your money could have been returned to you.
This is pretty much spot on... but Homeland Security? It is standard practice for unusually large payments like this to be reported to the IRS, who will usually snif around and ask where the money came from. They don't care if you stole it, just that you paid taxes on it - illegal income - including theft, drug sales, and bribes - must be declared as "self-employment" on your taxes.
If you make a large deposit into the bank, a large purchase in cash, or whatever, the IRS will likely come knocking - this happened to me after running almost $1500 in change through a coin counting machine at my bank.
The fact that Homeland Security is starting to get involved in this now could mean that DHS is trying to watch everybody as much as possible no matter who or what they are, or it could mean that DHS's powers are soo poorly and broadly defined that it's now become the default point of contact for the government "just in case."
I think the more important question is what he was doing spending $15,000 on an engagement ring. That's a lot of money to waste on a piece of jewelry.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
The problem is that the black hats are evolving. And like an antibiotic that only kills the weak cells removing the less effective black hats makes the remaining one stronger.
The flags were cleared, they didn't lose money, they don't live under a cloud of suspicion.
They didn't lose money, but if there had been payments they couldn't make during the course of the investigation becuase their assest were frozen by Fatherland Security, they very well could have.
Banking systems only work if there's a predictable amount of time between when a transaction is made and when it is processed. If a third party can arbitrarily hold up your funds for an indeterminate amount of time, you're better off keeping cash in your mattress.
I bought a vehicle in 1990 and wrote a check for it. The dealer had to record where I got the money because "the IRS wants to know the source of any payment in excess of a certain dollar amount."
That was the Internal Revenue Service. This was the Department of Homeland Security. It's a different issue.
Be fair. The Rosenburgs were real no shit spies, who tranferred atomic bomb secrets to their KGB handlers. Ethel wasn't a party member, but when they were being arrested, she tried to take their one-time pads down to the furnace to destroy them, so she had to have known what was up.
The CPUSA was not like the other political parties in the US at that time. It was wholly controlled from Moscow, and was primarily a front for espionage. Despite that, the Rosenburgs weren't convicted of being members of the Party -- they were convicted for actual crimes that they really committed.
You know, I really I wish I would have seen this sooner. Yesterday I received a refund check from the IRS for over $5,000. As luck would have it, I also just received a settlement check from my attorney for several thousand dollars. Without thinking, I deposited these both into my account this morning.
/. from Gitmo?
So now I've been flagged? Great. I wonder if I can access
Well considering it IS tax season, I think they shoulda called the people and asked them before turning them into the gov't for paying down a credit card. I do think they went a lil overboard with the Homeland Security thing. Honestly, for one, is a terrorist gonna pay down their credit card when they come into money for a bombing? And two, who would steal your identity or credit card statement to pay $6,000 on it for you? I understand the credit card company calling you to verify you really did spend $10,000 in one weekend, but to report you for paying your debt back?
=*^.^*=
It's pretty pathetic the way partisan politics sucks people into blindness. As other people have noted, it's been going on for years. Clinton's administration attacked our rights in certain ways. Bush's administration attacks them in others, sometimes building on Clinton's, sometimes in new ways. But it predates both of those.
A lot of people got excited by the first Mr. Bush's comments on the New World Order. A bunch of other people got excited by Mr. Cinton's comments on the New World Order. I looked at the fact that two people and parties who are allegedly diametrically opposed on so many things agreed, and got extremely nervous.
I can watch movies about secret government agencies and enjoy them as movies. I can even laugh at the funny ones. But deep inside, I always wonder whether they aren't really helping the true enemies of freedom, because of our tendancy to then relegate such concepts to movie-land.
I have no idea whether it's a political conspiracy in the traditional sense, or just a mixture of well-intentioned but foolish do-gooders and power-mad dictators. In the end, it won't really matter. We'll all just smile and moo and baaa and pretend to be happy, because the alternative is death.
As important as I think the second amendment is to freedom in the USA, I have serious doubts it will be relevant much longer. At which point you can bet your bippy the same will be true of the others.
You are all now earmarked by Homeland Security as terrorists. Thanks for your post:)
I don't know. "They" say that the rule of thumb for an engagement ring is "three months' salary." Maybe $15,000 isn't unreasonable for someone who makes $60k a year.
I certainly didn't make that kind of scratch back when I proposed to my then-girlfriend, but I did spend what I had been saving for a lift kit for my truck, on her engagement ring. She has never forgotten that fact, and actually tells her friends that I wanted her more than I wanted a 6-inch lift for my truck. This is a good thing.
I suppose it really depends on how much money you make and whether your fiancee would value a humongous ring. Fortunately, mine was happy with one a college student could afford.
"Too late than by a long shot. There is no way an organized armed revolt would even come close to success. The second amendment doesn't allow me to own a fully loaded stealth bomber. Even then it wouldn't be nearly enough. The second amendment out lived it's intended usefulness a long time ago."
This is assuming that only you or a small group want to revolt. That would not be a particularly democratic movement; you could not claim to speak for the people.
In a true revolution, you'd have popular support, with a chance of access to plenty of stealth bombers, if part of the army were on your side.
And on the related regulation which has been occuring for the last 30 years. THis isn't anything new.
However, they have suggested (and I agree) that such aggressive reporting is bad for our security. I guess the Banking Secrecy Act (BSA) created similar requirments 30 years ago and the Supreme Court has ruled that there is no right to privacy in financial transactions. In his prescient dissent, William O'Douglass suggested that this mentality would lead to reporting of hardware, pharmaceutical, and book purchases. Book purchases came under surveilance under the USAPATRIOT act, and sudafed purchases look to be regulated as a schedule II narcotic under the renewed revision of the USAPATRIOT act for the simple reason that it is a precursor to meth.
But the Treasury Dept. has 2 years of backlogs in entering this data. So if anyone things you can stop attacks by having intel that is two years out of date, I want to have what they are smoking (alas, what they are smoking is probably classified). It also makes one wonder if it could take 2 years for a large payment to post on a credit card in the future if this problem is not remedied.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Didn't Churchill have nightmares for years for knowing about the impending bombing of Coventry and having to sacrifice those lives in the hopes of changing the tide of war?
Not saying that you're right, but sometimes the costs can be massive for the greater good.
Wearing pants should always be optional.
You're also more likely to die in a car crash than you are to be murdered. What's the solution? Ban all cars and let murderers walk free?
We do everything we can to prevent accidents, yet they still occur, and always will. Likewise we must do everything possible to deter individuals from intentionaly targeting us. If tomorrow morning we took all the warning labels off of everything sold across North America, you'd see the death rate muliply tenfold overnight. Likewise, if we ignore violent actions taken against us, we will encourage further attacks by those who see us as weak and unwilling to fight back.
(Wonder why they pick on us Texans?)
"Since it ended, things have been much calmer, wouldn't you agree?"
For those who've lost a family member to a drunk driver, or a father to booze. All legalizing booze has done is swept the "calm" under the rug.
Once again, the United States proves that it is spying on its own people. For such a small sum of money, I can't see why any reasonable country would flag this as a questionable behaviour.
'homeland security' is a misleading term for an agency that is used primarily to spy on those that the US government regards as non-conformers to the fundementalist ideology of the US regime.
The Rosenbergs weren't fried because they were Communists. They were fried because they helped pass the atom bomb designs to the Soviets.
Incidentally, after the collapse of the USSR, historians gained access to KGB documents, and yes, they were both guilty as hell of doing it.
Since when does paying off all of one credit card considered financial responsibility? That money should be paid out when its charged, or shortly there after... letting $6500 sit on a CC (most likely at ~19.9%) can add to the overall cost of that card considerably. If instead of saving up to $6500 and paying it off at once, pay it off in a few payments over the whole life of the balance... less finance charges..
Who cares that the Dept of HS was notified... if you run a business, and someone makes a payment that is considerably higher than what is normal, espeically if the balance is rolling over month to month, wouldnt you notify someone?
Accountability goe sup the line as well...
This really makes me mad. I've got a multi-ethnic background, let me say this:
In my family, there were people who died being subjected to and resisting relocation on the Trail of Tears. There were slaves and those who resisted slavery, and death as a result of both. There was "Unc" who fled north in the US from indentured servitude. My grandfather fought in WWII, both my parents were overseas in the army helping with the cold war, and my mother was among the first to desegregate her high-school.
As far as I can tell, the entire history of civilization has been one big struggle for freedom, which seemed to be bearing fruit at least for me when, in 1999, I was the first of my generation in my family accepted to college. I set off "knowing" I would probably not see another major war, ever know hunger, and realizing that I had some responsibility to enjoy that privilege and work to see that others in less fortunate circumstances would know it too.
Come 2001, and suddenly all these pansies wrap themselves in a flag and practically beg our government to burn the constitution and everything we've supposedly fought for. Not to deny the tragedy of 9/11, but get a grip already. Many, many more people have fought and died fighting the far more serious threat of oppressive governments in the desperate hope that one day their children would be free. We were right there.
And suddenly people are honestly thinking that being spied on, having property seized, being arrested, possibly even tortured and deported without so much as a warrant or hope for a trial might be okay?! Because what? Everyone else in history who had to fight an abusive government would have been fine if they hadn't been doing something wrong?!
To those of you who think this kind of thing is okay because of one singe fluke terrorist act: My family fought and died for generations so that I could live a free man. If you can't handle it, move to China.
At what point would you consider surveillance to be too much?
There's no such thing as "too much." All this nonsense about how we have a duty to mistrust the government is a bunch of crap. The "government" is not some nameless, faceless, emotionless being, they're just people. They're your neighbors, your kids, your parents. They wear nice suits and know how to speak well, but deep down, they just want to do a good job and serve their country. There have been extremely few examples of government abusing its power throughout history, and it's usually ratted out by someone else within government.
Do you have any idea how much money the government spends on policing and the legal system? Imagine if cars had mandatory black boxes to report when they were breaking the laws, or track them when they were stolen. Nobody would break the law. You wouldn't have to put police out there, writing people tickets. The roads would be safer, and the police could chase the real bad guys. Granted, some of the traffic laws would need to be "softened up" a little, so that the speed limits weren't so unreasonably low as to create massive traffic congestion, but think of the lives and money that would be saved.
Imagine if we could get a mandatory DNA database past the privacy nazis. What if every child born in the US, and every immigrant applying for residency had to submit a DNA sample to a massive, central database? Not just criminals or sex offenders, but EVERYBODY. Then, when a hooker's body washes up on the beach, instead of dozens of investigators wasting hundreds of hours interviewing witnesses, friends, and family, to end up with no solid leads, you just get one lab technician (plus maybe an assistant, gotta have those checks and balances, right?) to swab for bodily fluids, and run it through the DNA database. Presto! You've got your suspect. Of course, you wouldn't automatically assume he's guilty, but he most likely would be your man.
Just imagine the money that could be saved. Taxes would go down. Crime would plummet, as people knew the liklihood of getting caught suddenly went way, way up. Why steal a car when they all have GPS trackers welded inside a door panel? Why sell drugs when there are video cameras on every light post? Why drive drunk when every car has an breathalyser ignition lockout?
Ban guns. Why does a peaceful democracy need guns? If your government is acting stupid, you vote them out. Or, in the case of the US, apparently you re-elect them. For crying out loud, it's 2006! Why the hell do we still have guns? For hunting? Gimmie a break. For home protection? Why not just lock your doors? You'd rather put your whole family at risk by having a loaded gun lying around than keep the bad guys out in the first place? Besides, if there are video cameras on every light post, like I said, burglaries would drop off too.
Think about it. A lot of it makes sense. But it's far too radical for the irrational, fear-based mentality of the western world. Maybe in a couple hundred more years, people will realize that peace, quiet, and safety are a lot more important than whether or not some guy in a suit in Washington whom you've never met knows you missed your last 2 Visa payments.
Well, "It's not worth it to me to give up" the safety of my country and the image of power which keeps it's citizens safe, just so that some paranoid, delusional fools (yes that means you Mr. "all communications dragnet") won't feel like they're being oppressed. It's become obvious over time that people like you are never satisfied. The more we take care to limit the ammount of damage we cause, the more pain we take to avoid mistakenly targeting the innocent, the louder your complaints get and the more you accuse us of atrocities and abuse. That's fine. I can live with being unpopular amongst those who have never had to stand for anything during the entirety of their miserable existances. What I and those like me CAN'T do is give in to your complaints when it means endangering the lives of innocents, and the common beleifs which we all hold sacred. Since there's no way to please you, you'll have to get used to being ignored. At least, untill you can elect another Democrat into office, at which point we'll have to go back to biding our time, working behind the scenes, and trying to prevent another 9/11 despite the constant (if unintended) efforts of the Democratic party to achieve the opposite.
Statistics don't mean shit when it comes to setting policy. The fact that you're using them to prop up your gormless diatribe tells me all I need to know about the relevance of your thoughts on the matter.
from the IRS.gov website:
Suspicious Activity Report (SAR) Filed on transactions or attempted transactions involving at least $5,000 that the financial institution knows, suspects, or has reason to suspect the money was derived from illegal activities. Also filed when transactions are part of a plan to violate federal laws and financial reporting requirements (structuring)
So you see it only takes a payment of $5k to trigger reporting.
how weird is this? the word I have to type to preview this post is "guilty"...where is my tin foil...
What I'm trying to point out is that one man's "predatory lending practices" are another's "fair credit opportunities." Furthermore, I think the logical conclusion of his line of thinking -- that creditors are somehow responsible for only offering their services to people who are 'responsible enough' to use them and not get in trouble, is a draconian, rubber-room, nanny-state. The whole premise -- that there is something wrong with me offering credit to anyone I choose who wants to accept it -- is false and dangerous, and if it gained wide acceptance would take us to a very bad place. The transition from "this is wrong" to "this shouldn't be allowed" to "this is illegal" happens rather quickly; if you let people cluck their tongues and shake their heads long enough without pointing out why their thinking is fallacious, eventually some Senator will decide to win some political capital by codifying it. It happens all the time.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
how about instead of bitching about the US government, we just move the fuck out and start our own government on some tiny island, and show them how it's supposed to be done?
I'm up for it, now if only the rest of you would get up from your computer chair.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
asdafsdfasdfg
Think about it. Credit card company tick you off? Send in that $300 payment as 30,000 checks. Yes you may have to buy a MICR printer to print your own, but hey its got to cost them more than a penny a piece to process them.
Of course you may want to make sure your bank doesn't charge you for excessive checkwriting.
And what a big mistake that would have been. If I would have blown 15k on her engagement ring, we couldn't have made the down payment on our house, which has since doubled in value.
Thank god I found a woman who "gets it".
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
You asked someone to correct you, I did. Did you really also want me to give you the google search I used? Anyway the wikipedia page on homeland security lays it all out in plain english.
l and+security+fbi" at least would have made it look like you were backing it up, and not just speaking out your ass.
Yes, I unfortunately expect corrections to be constructive. Thus "take my word for it" is pretty useless in this sort of a case. So after you made the comment, I had to go and google it myself and find the wikipedia article (actually the German version, since I use German Windows) which spells it out clearly.
This doesn't solve the whole matter though that when I asked for a correction, the only thing you gave me was "you're wrong." Putting it so bluntly and accusatively essentially gives me a psychological drive to try and prove *you* wrong, even if you're right. So, I have to go around looking to either confirm or deny your facts. Placing some more construction information such as, "No, the FBI isn't part of the DHS, but when they were starting to form the DHS, there was a lot of talk surrounding whether the FBI and CIA should be a part of the DHS, but in the end neither was made to be."
See, you decided to save all that time giving me even a google link, to just say "You've been corrected", and now you have to spend all this time defending your position. Hell, just saying "No, actually the FBI isn't part of the DHS http://www.google.com/search?q=department+of+home
I am unamerican, and proud of it!
If you can pay off one of these as an individual (for personal use) in one shot, then I'd bet you might as well prepare a greeting for them. The evil bit is on by default - these set off red flags just by their own existence in an individuals's possession in the very least (varying on income and quantity purchased).
Nevermind the Mac Mini (of both types), it's harmless to pay off in one shot. When you buy something made with little regard to quality, why should they bother investigating?
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Funny at the time was when I was shopping for rings. I asked the question of the sales lady whether that guideline was pretax salary or posttax. She didn't answer, but she started showing me rings that were about 2 weeks' salary.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
Basically our Government completely failed us and now it wants more power. People should have been asking why they weren't using the power they had effectively in the first place -- instead of why they need more.
I am confident your Government did not fail, and an incompetant Government that wants to derive additional powers from incompetant individuals is a thought to consider. Here is why I say it this way: with every movement of the Government, there needs to be an oath for that office to perform on your behalf. Without that oath to begin the process to remedy the disorder, there is no office for your Government but by the interests of those persons doing business by their self-interested and enstated capacity. The people are free and independent from that office, their powers and grants retained to perform those activities by other means. It is all too popular for a man to be in official uniform and going about his own business without an oath and making allegations outside of the honor of his contributed vesture; it's not any different than an caffeteria in full-force for all the banking hours. Back on that eleventh Day of the ninth Month, in the Year of Our Lord 2001, all offices were vacant of any duties to act on their capacity, and there is evidence the men waiting for their official duties were in-fact ordered by military jurisdiction to ignore all reporting and warning. Check the records on the abatement for the structural assurance over the "Twin Towers" designers and how they were slandered and libeled of their credibility to the specifications and integrity of their work; check the records on how the FBI entered the "Twin Towers" unanounced and in "working hours" three months before and tampered with the security systems in both buildings while the power was disabled; check the strange fires and unanounced demolitions of neighboring towers a mile from the "Twin Towers" and how their owners contracted exorbiant insurance policies less than a fortnight of the aeroplane collissions; check reports from fire-fighters claiming to have heard explosions before and after the alleged "modified" aeroplanes collided into the "Twin Towers": it is all there, and it is four years later a fiscal mess of fraud of non-oather officers acting on undisclosed evidenc with complete disregard for the people.
Check http://catfreedom.com on their evidence of a pyramid scheme on how the legislative democracy overlays the constitutional republic, between two elections of President and a president and their intercollusion and invasion between the United States and the United States of America. It is quite sickly.
Continuing...When there is no oath to effect the initial office for the body-politic, then there is no office to move: it is a corporation, an empty (law)suit, and the man (all men are male or female, 'minded) allegedly "lectored" to carry that law(suit) of the people has no liability and may go about his interests dressed in uniform of that office without that office itself; just because he is 'lected for that office doesn't mean he is not one of the people with his own interests and is not demurred for that office. The oath is to be recorded; public performances are for actors, and hands put on books and hearts is of no effect, but by the public record.
Scrutiny is to be put on the behavior in that man, his person unrestrained of its charter by him; that man and his actions determined repugnant or not, to the scope of that office and not the office itself. I hear more people afraid of what they think is "Satan", but when a man enters an office to perform on behalf of Satan and instead gives love and charity then there is somthing contrary to that office.
What does the President of the United States (federaion) and his "United States" ala USCODE Title 28 Section 3002 15(b) federal corporation accomplish, that the people cannot?
without prejudice
"SOE - Socially Dangerous Element."
WoW!!!
That's such a hilarious coincidence.
If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
9/11 gave the government all the excuses they need to take away every right or freedom you currently enjoy.
This is only one small example of what big brother is up to.
Most people have NO CLUE what all is going on that they DO NOT hear about.
Whether it is fingerprints or retina scans or mandatory ID cards at the airports -- or neo-nazi bank employees sniffing around your transactions -- America is becoming a pretty hostile place to live.
Rights? Freedom? After 9/11 you gave that up to big brother.
Of course... If you aren't doing anything wrong, you don't need privacy -- right?
Well since I was right, and you were wrong it was you was speaking out of your ass. You could have done the research in five seconds using google, it's not my job to do that for you. It behooves you to do a google search before you post in a public forum dont you think?
evil is as evil does
After paying a few thousand to a lawyer then it's "Oh sorry, we were wrong about our interpretation of the law but there really should be a law against reducing our projected PROFITS."
Last I checked in Michigan the limit for being reported is $6000.00 at which point the state also get a certain percentage of the transaction.
Well since I was right, and you were wrong it was you was speaking out of your ass. You could have done the research in five seconds using google, it's not my job to do that for you. It behooves you to do a google search before you post in a public forum dont you think?
Since the purpose of a public forum is not to post fact, but rather opinion, I certainly don't feel inclined to check my persumed facts. Especially, if I mark said suspicious facts properly.
Why did I persume that the FBI were a part of the DHS? Wow, maybe it's because other people thought the same thing at some point, like specifically the people that were setting up the department. Why didn't I know for certain? Honestly, I don't care that much about the inner workings of my government.
Doesn't change the fact that there are more assertive and less confrontational ways to correct people than "Consider yourself corrected." Considering that if you were more assertive, I'd have believed you, and if you were less confrontational, I'd have been coaxed into believing you. But rather, I doubted you, and got in a big ol' argument on a public forum because you failed to present yourself in any way that lends towards persuassion.
I mean, shit, there are three huge areas of persuassion that work: Ethos, Pathos, and Logos. Ethos: "I'm a polisci major, and you're wrong." Pathos: "Actually, you're incorrect. They considered it, but it didn't go up." and Logos: "You're wrong, here's the google link that it took me 15 seconds to search for."
Somehow you managed to miss all three of these enormous persuassive points, and then you wonder why I didn't believe you, and then you try and pawn it off on me that I should have checked my facts? I clearly indicated that I was working off personal recollection. If you had any more input than that, you should use one of the three above persuassive techniques to back that shit up.
I am unamerican, and proud of it!
Yeah, I'm sure you've never raised any "red flags" anywhere.
Mind the Gap
After reading your comment I did some research on ING Direct and have decided to open an account there. I wanted to see if you actually had an account there and, if so, you'd like referr me (selfishly, as I understand they have referral bonus for both the referrer and the reffered). My email (with spamfilter) should be on my account, otherwise reply to this and we'll see if we can figure something out.
-Trillian
PS - If you don't actually have an account there, I'd be curious to hear why you mention them anyway. It looks like, when paired with a checking account, it's a great system for earning some extra intrest. Thanks!
I've had an account with ING Direct in Canada for about 5 years. Never had a problem, their service has been fine on the rare occasion where I've had to call them.
... at 7.2% it will beat any credit card you have. The only fees you'll pay with the debit card are the network fees the other banks charge, ING doesnt add a charge here.
I do exactly what you suggest, I use my credit union's checking account to move money in and out.
I don't leave any money in the credit union that I expect to need in the next 5 days or so, leaving very little capital for the credit union to make their profits with. You leave all your cash with them to play with, which is a big source of profit for them, and they pay you back by giving you basically zero interest and stealing 20-30 bucks a month from you in fees. To hell with that.
Get the ING Direct debit card, you can link it either to your savings account or to a line of credit to get at your money fast, get the line of credit
While your at it, get your Mortgage through ING Direct. Their 5-year fixed rate is 5.1% right now, compared to 6.45% through the big banks, could make $200 a month difference on the payments.
I dont care about the referral.
George Bush + Linux = "I will not let information get in the way of the fight against Windows"