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Replacing a Thinkpad?
An anonymous reader writes "As a very happy Thinkpad T20 user (still working after 7 years), I always planned on replacing it with another Thinkpad T-series. However, Thinkpads are now produced by Lenovo, a Chinese company, and I can't quite bear to buy Chinese while the Burmese military are shooting at monks with the Chinese Government as their biggest backer. Maybe this is silly, as whatever I buy is likely to be made (at least in part) in China... but still, what are my options for something as well built as the Thinkpad T-series?"
Where exactly do you think the other laptop manufacturers make their gear? A hint: "Designed in California, Made in China", and that is just one of the favourites around here on slashdot.
I've repaired and issued a lot of laptops in my day and I'm not aware of a true competitor to the T series in terms of chassis design. The current T lineup is really nice, but expensive. I'm starting to think I'll get myself a Dell 1420n with Ubuntu for my next box. Granted it's not a rugged laptop but I don't really need that kind of durability. You could consider the Toughbooks, but I really don't have any practical knowledge of them.
You do realize Lenovo is selling the Thinkpads now because... *drumroll* they were the company that made them all along?
avoid Dell, too, since the American government is doing such horrible things around the world. Yes, it's flawed logic. Move on.
Check ebay for a used thinkpad. IBM still made them in 2005, though they were made in a Chinese factory.
--- Often in error; never in doubt!
>> Thinkpads are now produced by Lenovo, a Chinese company
If that was your problem, you should never have bought a Thinkpad ever. They were always manufactured by Lenovo which has always been a Chinese comopany, the country which it belongs to has always been the same. Can I call this a sudden attack of morality?
Aside from the obvious hypocrisy mentioned above, I am sure you will get a lot of suggestions from the cult of Mac, but believe me - its hard to find a replacement for Thinkpad. No matter how slick other notebooks may look, in terms of fineness, usability and sheer joy of typing (yes, thats critical factor for me at least), nothing comes near.
This is cynical of me, but your private little boycott is not going to do the monks any good. If you buy a new Thinkpad now, it'll outlast the problem in Burma. Just buy another one. Lenovo has always produced Thinkpads, it's just that IBM doesn't support them directly anymore. Thinkpads are still the most reliable laptops in the market.
Ian
Buy a newer, but still-made-by-IBM-not-Lenovo Thinkpad off eBay?
I've supported a large number of thinkpads over the years, and never thought of them as being that well made. Certainly no more reliable than a Dell latitude. Anyway, if you're looking for a tough relaible laptop, get a Panasonic Toughbook. It's the best we've found, YMMV.
and I can't quite bear to buy Chinese while the Burmese military are shooting at monks with the Chinese Government as their biggest backer. You're right. By the way didn't I just see you leave Walmart?
Infiltrated dot Net
Look for Fujitsu-Siemens. From my experience, they make rather rugged and good business-class laptops and at least some of them are Made in Germany!
:)
So you can support the Münich Maglev.
I'm also a longtime Thinkpad fan. But I've also had very good luck with Panasonic's Toughbook line. Very well made machines and manufactured in Japan. They cost a little more but should last considerably longer than many of their competitors.
I certainly wouldnt want to by anything from the USA while children are dying of cholera in Iraq because the USA backed regime has blocked imports of Chlorene.
Old COBOL programmers never die. They just code in C.
You know, they are shooting at the musulman priests in Badga desert.
:)
Unfortunaly this will left you with almost no option, because AMD and Intel are american companies, so sorry, you better go to a cave and forget about human kind.
SE Asia is the haven for most OEM's to purchase their laptops. For instance, old alienware laptops were actually Prostar laptops with a different logo (a Taiwanese manufacturer). Its going to be hard for you to find something that will allow you to divorce yourself from hardware without Chinese connections.
Expensive, but well built and assembled mostly in the US to my knowledge. I recommend doing more research and not just taking my word for it. :) Good luck.
http://www.mpccorp.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPC_Corporation
I was in your situation a short while ago, replacing an early T series laptop provided by my employer, and I also did not want to support lenovo. I purchased a refurbished T40 from buy.com for about $500, and am incredibly happy. Yes, it's only a single core processor at 1.5Ghz, but it serves my needs very well. In my opinion, IBM's T series laptops are the best non-apple laptops ever to grace this planet.
-q
Do you think it really matters what laptop you buy? Every single company anywhere is doing something horrible to someone. Your best bet is to go into the forest and widdle a laptop from a tree; but then you'd be killing a tree.
If you want to boycott Chinese products all together, head to the nearest forest, take off all your clothes, and live like Tarzan in the wilderness.
I use Thinkpads. However, one of my major clients have switched to HPs (from Dells), and ones they have seem quite nice. I'm not sure what model range, though.
Of course, they are also made in China...
My other sig is extremely clever...
I just heard the Chinese are telling the Burmese to cool it on the monk-killing...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
What is wrong with your T20?
I have an X23 that I refurbished. Maxed out the RAM and put in a new hard-drive. I can't see any reason to replace until it dies.
Eventually I will replace the spinning hard-drive with a flash-drive. I'd love to find a way to replace the CCFL backlight with LED were that possible, to make it even more long-lived.
The American fascination with tossing perfectly adequate technology into a landfill is apalling.
Just as another poster noted, just about any laptop you purchase will be assembled (or come from parts) in China. If you really like Thinkpads that much, I would suggest maybe looking at getting another one? I am currently typing this on a Thinkpad T40 and I absolutely love it. The only other laptop I would suggest getting is an HP. At my work we use their business series notebooks (not the Pavilion), such as the nc6000/nc8000/nc9000 series, and they are very durable and clean looking. I'm not sure if this is a renamed or a different model line, but they have newer ones that are just "6000" series laptops now (6510, 6710, 6910). I've used the 6910p and it appears to be just as good as the others I previously mentioned.
I've always liked Compaqs. I had one with a busted LCD that I actually full-on stomped on. It kept ticking, after a badblocks. It was a much older model, a 486 with 16 megs running 2.0 kernels, but I managed uptimes of over a year (I wrote a kernel module to patch the ptrace vulnerability on the fly, and some firewall rules took care of most of the rest :-)).
:-)
I currently have a Toshiba Satellite (for some reason) and a pre-Lenovo Thinkpad A20m, and my girlfriend has a Compaq. The Thinkpad and the Compaq are pretty solid. I'll let you know about the Satellite.
As far as getting something that isn't made in China, I'd say, offhand: you're screwed.
Assume I was drunk when I posted this.
If you really give a shit about helping other people, we've got to end the two wars that we are bogged down in. The Democrats don't appear to be able to even attempt to stop the war, so it's up to us citizens to do it ourselves.
We are going to strike on November 6th. Basically, nobody in America is going to work, and nobody is going to buy anything. If our government isn't going to listen to us, the people, then we are going to SHUT IT ALL DOWN.
The last Lenovo I saw in a store actually had a case so fragile it flexed when I pressed my finger on it. Panasonic toughbooks might not be bad. They recently greatly increased their rated fall distance. If you're looking for a metal case there are also the power pros. They have the tidy little advantage of being able to run all the current major OSes
After Tiananmen Square I stopped buying Chinese. In the last few years it has been almost impossible. If the main thing isn't made in China, components are, and that goes for almost everything. I am sure my shoes are made from the finest Falun Gong hides. In terms of a laptop, I don't any that would have most of the parts made in China. Not much has changed in terms of Chinese regard for human rights, but no one seems to care much as long as they can get what they want cheap, regardless of the treatment of the labour that produces them and the regime that allows it.
We used to liberate people, now we liberate markets.
I've used Macs for years, especially the Powerbook line, and they are long lasting & durable. Plus, you'll be able to run 3 different OS's with Bootcamp.
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
That reducing the wealth of people in an area makes them more subservient and dependent on the wealthy? In this case, the state... Sanctions ironically simply cement the power of the powerful.
You make people more independent by making them wealthy.
Deleted
Most companies, even Lenovo, use ODM companies to make laptops. Some of these companies are Chinese, but Taiwan is also a major competitor. Look for names like Quanta, Compal, or ASUS if you want to go with a Taiwanese company instead of a Chinese company. The ODM relationships are not advertised, so you will have to do some digging. Join forums like notebookreview.com and ask people to tell you where their laptops label says it was manufactured if you want to be sure.
If you want something built well, look into Panasonic. They're not cheap because they're not built cheap.
I carried my little white 2001 iBook in a gym bag back and forth to the office for 4 years, before retiring it for it's final year to home only as a couch computer. It finally gave up the ghost after 5.5 years, and two drops to the linoleum covered floor in my living room -- once from 2 feet, once from three and a half. I wish Apple still used the bullet proof glass for iBook cases. That iBook sure took a beatin' before it belly-uped .
If you never make mistakes, it's probably because you're not doing anything.
An anonymous reader writes
"As a very happy iPod user (still working after 7 years), I always planned on replacing it with another iPod. However, iPods are still produced by Apple, an American company, and I can't quite bear to buy American while the Blackwater are shooting civilians with the US Government as their biggest backer. Maybe this is silly, as whatever I buy is likely to be made (at least in part) in the USA... but still, what are my options for something as well built as the iPod?"
there, fixed that for ya!
Wait for couple of months and THEN buy a Lenovo laptop.
By then, this monk business should be over, and you can explain to your conscience that China (or Lenovo) are not backing monk-shooters NOW.
Still.. I'd hate to be you.
I mean... giving up everything made in USA because of current troubles in Iraq.
Giving up everything made in Germany, Italy and Japan because of WWII.
And Spanish Inquisition...
Damn! Come to think of it... What do you eat and drink then?
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
I would happily buy a MacBook if it had the pointing_stick/nipple/TrackPoint/etc (the thing that sits between the G and H keys to move the mouse pointer).
I can't stand the Trackpad.
My T21 died back in February. I really loved that thing even though it was pretty slow at 1Ghz. I replaced it with a 15" MacBook Pro. I run VMWare fusion on it for those times I need to run a Windows partition. I'm at a point now where I rarely use those Windows sessions. I use the Mac primarily for Java development using Eclipse, JBoss, Tomcat. I had to do some testing on a Vista desktop a couple weeks ago. After that experience, I appreciated my Mac a whole lot more...
Uhm. Almost all electronic components are manufactured in China anyway. Even if you buy a laptop that hasn't been assembled as a whole in China, Laptops are made from resistors, capacitors, ICs and so forth: the bulk of the parts will have been made in China. It *might* still be possible to buy a "100% China Free" laptop. But I doubt it. Overreaching intellectual monopoly laws have completely gutted the manufacturing capacity of the West (without patents and copyrights, it's a free market and manufacturing is locally profitable. With them, lawyering supplants engineering as the road to market domination).
This might be the worst of the slashkos stories yet. And from an anonymous source no less.
Everything probably has blood on it by your standards. Sell all your electronics, stop heating and lighting your home. Sell your home and live in a grass shack.
I would answer your question but I have a feeling you won't read it, since this comment is also made in China!
Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
an abacus. They're great for math, unless you've developed something against the ancient Babylonians while living under your rock. The fact is that you're looking at Chinese mad goods no matter what you buy, you said it yourself. You're either going to buy an OLPC when they're available (at only slightly less power than you've already got) or buying Chinese. Don't like it? Who do you think made that T20 for IBM before?
"what are my options for something as well built as the Thinkpad T-series?""
You could try Macbook pro.
The point I was trying to make, for those who missed it, was not that America is the same as China, but that Lenovo and Dell are not responsible for governmental policy.
I ordered my mom a custom Thinkpad several years ago and it was drop shipped from China. They even sent me the tracking number so I could watch the progress.
Good luck finding any computer part today that doesn't have at least 50% of it's components made in China.
The last lot of Lenovo desktops we brought were made in Hungary. Get one of them instead...
What if your $500 were used to buy a gun used to shoot little girl scouts? What then?
Never owned a thinkpad, then?
--- Do you believe in the day?
10's of million Chinese products were shortcutted and endanger our children. In addition, you can probably count on Leveno products now having some interesting BIOS code (the company is losing the American and Europeans designers and hiring just Chinese).
Smart to walk away from Chinese products. The hard part will be picking what you want. In general, check the various dell models. In addition, the bulk of the Japanese models are made in Japan or South Korea. Apple is a china made item. Regardless, good luck.
Very little compares to the durability of the ThinkPads, at least in the non-rugged category. You pay dearly for them, but they last forever compared to other notebooks.
Even Dell's Lattitude business line still feels like a toy. Dell really improved their notebooks over the last iteration, and they're still crap. HP's business line (not the consumer junk with the blinky blue lights and 17" monitors) is the only one IMO that comes close to IBM/Lenovo's case design and construction.
If you really want rugged or semi-rugged, you probably need to look at the Panasonic Toughbooks. They're solid, but they're 20% heavier than they should be and you compromise on case design for durability. (Side note, if you buy the true rugged Toughbook, it's assembled in the US (probably for military contract requirements.) You pay accordingly too...list on some of the rugged models is in the $2000-$3000 range.
Your other choice might be a MacBook Pro, but those aluminum cases don't look like they can take a beating the way the old ThinkPads can.
(By the way, everything's made in China now. If it wasn't, you wouldn't be paying the cheap prices you get for hardware now.)
Why not take a look at Panasonic Business class toughbooks? They are very lightweight, yet meant to stand up to a decent beating. Plus they have ridiculously long battery life to boot!
They are a bit expensive but if you are looking for build quality + longevity, I can't think of a better alternative.
(If you mod this down, the terrorists win)
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
IBM had a range of ThinkPads aimed at home users (the G series from memory?) but they fell by the way a few years ago.
Lenovo came along (they didn't necessarily make ThinkPads beforehand, I'm not sure if Legend were the company that IBM gave their build contracts to) as the combination of Legend and the IBM PC division. So, the same people are still working on ThinkPads, but with new management. I am typing this on a ThinkPad T60, and while it's nice, it doesn't feel as solid as the T41 I had before it.
Lenovo introduced a number of home-market-esque features - obvious ones include widescreen/titanium covers on the Z series and the Windows key. They also got rid of the IBM branding (at least in advertising) as quickly as they could, which I find interesting; they had the right to use it for 5 years, and "ThinkPad" was definitely associated with IBM, and with quality.
You can now buy cheap Lenovo laptops (C series), which I'd personally keep far away from, as they feel really cheap. At least they've not branded them ThinkPad. The Z series seem to be what they're pitching at "home" to compete with Dell/HP, and in general, the quality (plastic, keyboard, construction) all just seems a little more flimsy now.
I worked for an IBM business partner, and we stopped selling ThinkPads when the quality fell. We moved to HP NC/NX series laptops (much better value for money, at least in New Zealand) - these were not without their problems also. We had one that would cause a right mouse button click when the hood was closed and you tapped the case (or the table, for that matter), because the trackpad was too close to the screen. That was fun to diagnose!
Friends with Dells say they're good; friends with MacBooks say you can't get any better. You pay a little premium for the MacBook's ability to run MacOS, obviously; if you don't value that, you might not want to consider one. I read that they may be bringing out a lower priced line of them soon.
Have a play around and see what you like, but not just at stores - the business quality ones are better specced, often cheaper and not always available in retail stores.
It'd be nice if it had more than a 1-button mouse, too... that button is like 4 inches wide!
Is buying Amerincan made product among your options, while invasion of Iraq by U.S. caused ten thouthands innocent civilian death?
More lives are lost in Iraq than in Burmese.
If refusing chinese product makes sense for you, think again.
More practically, mice are fairly portable and avoid the stupid one-button problem on the Macs nicely.
If you never make mistakes, it's probably because you're not doing anything.
what a tard. if you want to go down that path, you might as well sell off all your crap and go live in a cave. no wait, you can't do that either. go read up on american history and talk to native americans and blacks to see their side of the story. you probably won't want to stay here after that. all countries have done some "not so nice things". get over it and get a T61. if you can't, then go kill yourself cuz you're made in america.
I love my T60, too, by the way. Runs great with Ubuntu as well.
'Every story, if continued long enough, ends in death.' --Ernest Hemingway
There are two options. First, buy a Mac. I've had great luck with 'em, they tend to be lovely hardware, and I've had great results with Apple service.
But you probably don't want it. Plus, they are made in China, I think.
Your best bet: used Thinkpad. You can get one made by IBM, or Lenovo. But if you buy it used, then you aren't giving money to the Chinese. At most, you are raising the average resale value on the things which would very slightly raise demand on new ones if many other people did the same.
Of course, unless you are lucky, you can't get the latest and greatest this way.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
I'm pretty sure they've got nipples and think how cool it would be to own a moose ;)
I cannot, in good conscience, buy a new computer until they put new pr0n on the internet!
This
There are a number of reasons not to buy Chinese products, but really this is not one of them, as most products these days are manufactured in the Asiapac area. However, with regards to lenovo, the US gov no longer purchases products not designed or owned by US entities unless it can not be avoided. Specifically *put on your tinfoil hat* that the chinese are embedding hardware that is designed to spy on the owner of that hardware *remove tinfoil hat* While is has not been proved, atleast when the products where designed in the US, all components were accounted for, there are a few components in some products coming out of Asia that are installed on the pcb's but have no description and are unaccounted for.
Granted, the above, is all pure speculation, but not completely out of the question.
I would be more worried about food products coming out of China at this point, then about boycotting electronics due to a political stance, because if that were the case.. you may as well stop buying products made in South America, most of Asia, hell even some places in EU, none of the gov's on this planet have clean hands.
I came, I conquered, I coredumped
sorry troll, Thinkpads have always been made by Lenovo. Just that before they were under contract to IBM. Then IBM wanted out of the PC game and sold the entire operation over to the manufacturer (Lenovo). Go back to Digg.
It doesn't make sense to stop buying from Lenovo and continue buying goods made by other Chinese companies. Are you going to boycott all Chinese-made goods? Then be ready for some serious inconvenience.
Also, it's kind of sad that you're focusing on what's happening in Burma. It's evil, all right, but it also happens every day, all over the world. (And a lot of it is perpetrated by our very own beloved leaders.) If you really give a shit about human rights, stop reacting to headlines and start doing stuff day-to-day. Like joining the organization linked above, or one like it.
We use Apple MacBooks at our middle school and they've held up really well. No one is harder on computer equipment than little kids. The laptops have been real durable. So from personal experience, I'd recommend an Apple MacBook. You might like Mac OS X, but if you don't, you can always load it with Windows and/or Linux.
In America, you can have a website and a donate money to form an organization saying "Bush sucks". In China, if you did that, you would wind up in jail.
This is my sig.
Once you experience the two-finger scroll feature, you might change your tune ;)
Buy a 486 Thinkpad with DOS, and donate the rest of your budget to support "democracy" and "freedom" in Burma. Are you willing to do that?
An anonymous coward on Slashdot has just refused to buy a new Thinkpad?
CEASE FIRE!
Get the Red Cross in here NOW!
Tell the monks no hard feelings, no?
What were we thinking?!
See how that works?
You did mention you wanted it to be sturdy, I think those are designed for it.
:-).
:-)
Strangely enough, I've had good mileage out of a VAIO and the only upsetting thing there was that my spare HAD to come with Vista (which I promply zapped for Kubuntu and a VMWared XP session where needed). It seems I'm no longer the only one with a savage dislike for Vista
Anyway, how are you going to check that your laptop doesn't contain Chinese parts? I think you're a bit late for that, but that's my personal opinion - I actually do the same, just for a different country
Insert
Use the anti-RIAA/MPAA tactic and buy used, hopefully from some CEO who has to have this months model of stuff, etc.
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
So you're the single person in the entire world that they keep making those annoying eraser heads for? Damn you.
I fixed my fan, added 1 Meg of memory, and got a cheap 250 gig drive for my work machine. I plan to use XP and Office 2003 until it completely caves.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
If you can afford it, then the MacBook Pro is the way to go. I had a PowerBook Titanium up until last spring when I sold it and purchased a MacBook Pro. (I'm in video production and a 1Ghz G4 wasn't going to cut it for FCP 6.) I got a model on closeout for $1300. It only had an 80GB HDD and 512MB of ram, but considering that a 320GB external HDD and 1GB of Ram set me back an extra $330, not a bad deal. I boot XP Pro off an external via Parallels when I need to use Windows, say to export a model from 3D Studio Max to something usable in Lightwave.
Now you are going to pay the Apple premium, but I haven't had many problems with Apple products unless it's a first Gen product. (I had a 1st gen snow white iBook G3 as my first Mac...there is a reason why I refuse to buy an iPhone at the moment...well that and ATT coverage in this area sucks.)
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
you might as well go to the outback, live from kangaroo meat and drink your own piss. cause everything else, at least part of it, it made somewhere in china.
The Dell Latitude is the closest competetor I've seen to the T-series Thinkpad. It has the magnesium alloy durable chasis, the hard drive head parking software, fingerprint reader option, and all that other neat stuff. I personally got one, and it was a lemon, so I returned it and got a T50, but a friend of mine has migrated his entire company to Latitudes and he couldn't be happier.
Laptops, from any manufacturer, come in just a handful of known configurations, and generally are customizable only by RAM, and maybe hard drive upgrades. Easy to make them in advance overseas.
Dell's big schtick with desktops though... and it's true of plenty of other makers as well... is building the machine to your specs as you order it, and having it to you within 48 hours, maybe even overnight. That's hard, and exorbitantly expensive, to do if you have to deal with international shipping and customs.
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
When you find a company that makes laptops, sand to bootable, without Chinese backing, be sure to shout their name from the mountain tops.
Sure, Lenovo is a Chinese company. How many components of a Dell, a Gateway, and Acer, an HP/Compaq, or even an Apple do you suppose are made without Chinese backing in terms of components, manufacturing, assembly, etc?
Welcome to the Global Economy.
Is Lenovo owned by the Chinese Government or not? This was the rule in the old communist (well socialist) countries, each and every business was owned by the government, this is the essence of the economic communist doctrine. I understand that China is not Communist anymore,at least not economically, they have private companies, etc.
Sure, according to Marxist theory a country with a private economic sector is not communist.
Anyway in case Lenovo is not owned by the Chinese Government you should not blame them for the actions of the Chinese Government.
Do you blame Sun Microsystems, Microsoft or Novell for the current US external policy? Are these companies responsible in any way for whaterver the US Government does?
First off go to notebookreview.com to see which Laptop suits your needs. In your case, I would seriously look at a Fujitsu Lifebook. They are excellent machines, an E series or S series would be the perfect thin and light for you. But they are assembled in Osaka, Japan and NOT in Third Word mainland China. Checkout Panasonic Toughbooks although they are somewhat pricey. I believe Dell Latitude are assembled in Malayasia. HP Compaq are made in China. I think Samsungs are put together in Korea (although loads of Samsung products, especially Consumer Electronics are made in China). I really hope these Burmese Generals end up in front of a firing squad. I also hope no more monks or civilians get hurt. The way fucking Russia and China have backed the Burmese Junta sickens me. These two countries spawned Stalin (Georgian) and Mao. The biggest butchers in history. They also backed Pol-Pot in Cambodia in the 1970s. Maybe the Russians and Chinese are the greatest threat to the Free World and not some deluded Muslims.
I have moderator points, and i'd much rather mod the story as Troll or Flamebait, than go through and mod up all the comments pointing out the flaws in this guys logic behind avoiding lenovo.
1) The Chinese are trying to get Burma to calm down as well (it's not like they are sanctioning the violence despite funding them), so I wouldn't feel too bad about supporting China in this case...
2) If you decide not to get a Thinkpad, get a Powerbook or Macbook Pro. Very well built with a great deal of connectivity options, and you can simply run Windows (or Linux) on it from the word go if that is your thing.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The gradual advancement of economic freedom in China has dramatically weakened its rulers, who now must justify their policies to a ever-growing urban middle class while simultaneously creating tens of millions of factory jobs every year for a rural population that now hopes one day to join the civilized world. A surfeit of export trade is the present catalyst for this process, so you should be thankful that you have the privilege of buying goods from emerging markets like China and Vietnam.
Don't buy a Thinkpad anyway, the quality has gone through the floor in the last few years. My company bought some new T43's, and they are pieces of crap.
The masses are the crack whores of religion.
The money won't go to China, and it's likely to be compatible with whatever distro you were using with your T-20. All it needs is a new battery.
China would just flood the market with American dollars and ruin the US without having to fire a shot.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
I went from a thinkpad t20 (which I also really liked) to a Dell Latitude d600, which is a VERY similar product cosmetically. I think the Latitudes and the Thinkpads are some of the only laptops I have seen (does not mean they are the only ones, just the only ones I have seen) that come with both the fingger mouse and the trackpad.
My d600 is about to go back on lease return, and I am getting a latitude d630, which is a very nice machine.
I do not see any chinese stickers, but I do see parts made in malaysa and singapore. Maybe if I open the laptop up, I can find some chinese parts. Strange, before I got the latitude, I thought they were all built in Round Rock, Texas.
Nah, good luck finding a company that is completely Asian free. I bet even the one laptop per child has something made in SE Asia. Let me know if you find a company that sells laptops in which nothing in them is made in China.
with regard to internal affairs, even if the situation in USA is getting worse, and the situation in China is getting better, they are still far from being in the same league.
With regard to foreign affairs though, US is providing life support to far more dictatorial regimes than China is. US gives lip service to democracy and freedom, but not when the local dictators are seen as allied against communism (old days) or terrorists (modern days).
US is also typically allied with conservative Muslim countries in international organizations for social issues such as birth control, although that is a development new with the current administration.
Then go to http://www.xogiving.org/ and order up a couple of XO laptops so the poor kids in Burma have a shot (pardon the expression) at a real future. If you like, you can sign up to buy a pair of XO laptops, one for a poor kid in some third-world country and one for your own kid or a neighbor or even for yourself. You'll pay less for those two XOs than Microsoft gets for a retail copy of Windows, and they'll do a lot more good (and, um, work a lot better ...)
as all the cardboard boxes they come packed in will proudly display
PRODUCT OF CHINA
Dell is nothing more than a sticker on someone elses hardware
Some poor people are opressed by their own government. They are not punished enough, let us punish them further with economic sanctions!. This type of politics is enforced in order to make local people suffer more and overthrow their own governments. The world powers using this policy are bullies who who do not care they make millions suffer, if necessary they would step on corpses in order to achieve their political goals, it does not matter if tens of thousands of (foreign) people die as a result of their actions, all these people are not as important as their grandiose political objectives.!.
I think you need to pick better battles than this, because there is no real connection between Lenovo (or the Chinese computer industry) and the Chinese government's policies that I am aware of. If you really want to boycott something based on governmental policies, you should buy a bike or start walking everywhere and try to not use so much oil. Alan Greenspan has now said in his latest book what politicians won't say about Iraq, which we all knew before, and that is that it was about oil. There is also a UK study indicating that about 1.2 million Iraqis have died as a result of violence since the US invasion began.
So boycott something that governmental policies actually affect.
As a very happy user (still working after 7 years), I always planned on replacing it with another . However, are now produced by , an American company, and I can't quite bear to buy American while security companies like Blackwater are shooting at Iraqis with the American Government as their biggest backer. Maybe this is silly, as whatever I buy is likely to be made (at least in part) in America... but still, what are my options for something as well built as the ?"
The selling points on Thinkpads for me are:
I dread that Lenovo will fritter away the Thinkpad's well-earned reputation for quality now they're unhooked from IBM - but so far things are still ok.
--- These are not words: wierd, genious, rediculous
since all your options seem to have some part of manufacturing in china, and typically in the greater south east asian sector. perhaps you can base it on component manufacturers(nvidia, seagate, samsung, etc). frankly i'd lean towards a macbook pro, even if you're running windows only. or if your absolutely deadset against owning an apple product, you can build your own using a barebones/whitebook kit, specifying your components, and installing only what you need without the bloatware that come bundled with all retail pc's.
three can keep a secret, if two are dead - benjamin franklin
I *love* my ASUS Z84JP. Monster power laptop, feels well built, runs Linux like a dream, has an eSATA port. Only disadvantage (besides its 8lbs if that matters) is it is not yet Santa Rosa. But ASUS has a new 15", the G1 I think it's called, that is SR and lighter.
I'll keep buying ASUS just for its built in eSATA port if no other reason, until others follow suit. Much better than USB2 for hard drives, and better than firewire too IMHO. And built in is much better than through an ExpressCard like you'd need to do with other vendors.
Of course, I don't think ASUS uses ATi cards, only nVidia. That's good for now, but when the open source 3D for ATi is complete, I won't want nVidia anymore.
Thinkpads have had it for years, finger on the nub, thumb on the middle button. It's very precise.
You do have to sacrifice MOUSE3 for it, but that still leaves us with one more than the macbook.
--- Do you believe in the day?
Check out the Panasonic Toughbook lineup. Our police force uses these and I assure you they are rugged and they work anywhere. There are different types of ruggedness: like the fully one, I know for a fact works even in -50c, rain, etc. (our police force uses these) and then the semi-rugged kind which may be more practical for an office setting. Although, I think they're a bit expensive, if you were planning on getting a Thinkpad anyways, its build quality is up there. Also, Panasonic Toughbooks are not manufactured in China and are made by its parent company Matsushita.
Hope you don't own a car or any electronic device or ever plan on owning any such device.
[tag]politically "correct" moron[/tag]
How the fuck is this comment insightful?? The parent post says its an insult that say that the US and Chinese governments are on any equal moral footing. Tossing back gitmo or any perceive evil of the US as a counterargument doesn't change that one iota.
The US has their problems, but if you want to compare them to China, it's not even close. Where are the listings for the Chinese government's transgressions?
You don't buying something from china bc they are shooting pple ?
...
I hope you don't buy American then
I don't think I could ever bring myself not to buy a stinkpad. I was not too happy when the first thing Lenovo did was add a stupid windows key to their T series line... Most likely the last mainstream notebook on the planet to not have one. Its nothing against windows its just space is limited and craming a windows key that can be best accomplished by software mapping into a notebook is not ideal. The keyboards and j-key mouse on the thinkpads have always rocked and excellent QC are always a salient reason for sticking with them.
China is like the plastics SIG commercials on TV where everything disappears because there is plastic in pretty much everything nowadays. Computers are the same way. Its nice to make a stand against crap thats going on in the world but at the same time everyone must live within the context of their time. Write your Senator about the issue and your concerns regarding Berma. That will do a lot more good than one person not buying a cool notebook.
In the end I believe global markets and interdepdenancy are the only thing that keep various nations from scratching the itch to lob cannon balls or Tasar bombs or whatever at each other and IMHO can serve just as much for good as bad.
Nation focused pressure rather than millions of individuals making a stand is much more constructive and effective as if everyone were to ban Chinese goods then Condi and crew have that much less leverage to make others have their way in a constructive rather than what would be a destructive I hate china, people against people campaign.
Also last I checked Windows is still made by an american company, the CPUs, north/south chipsets, graphics subsystems..are all mostly designed by US based companies. Don't buy into the crap people are spouting here that everything goes to China.
Aside - am I alone in chuckling at the stream of people suggesting Apple products, even though the original poster specifically stated that he doesn't want a Chinese made laptop? Has no Mac user ever turned their machine upside down and looked at the little sticker on the bottom?
Anyhow, I have to think that somewhere in the US secuirity establishment there must be a company supplying laptop gear designed and built in the U.S. specifically because folks like the CIA might not want to trust hardware built in China.
Or, in other words, if all laptops are built in China, could the Chinese government be dumb enough not to include some super-secret features that they can use when needed?
Three Squirrels
Over the past 10 or more years I've noticed that the prices are not that much cheaper from China. Lower cost doesn't mean lower prices for the consumer, it means lower for the company to make so the executives and managers can have larger bonuses and salaries. Now, I have a T-20 and recently upgraded to a T-60. It works like a champ and seems to be solidly build, but I haven't dropped it yet (but soon)... Regards, ran6110
So, the one thing I've been happy about with my most recent laptop purchase (Dell D620): I bought the uber-support package - a tech shows up at my house the next day, hardware-in-hand to fix the problem. Compare that to my last computer support without anything fancy (Toshiba Satellite) - a 3 week wait while my laptop was out of commission waiting for the warranty support center to order and re-order parts. I don't have any particular affiliation with Dell or Toshiba (both the computers have been great), but that fancy support has been spectacular.
Last non-lenovo generation. Solved ethical issue plus saves some $.
You could get an Asus laptop. Owned by the Taiwanese, and made in Taiwan (or at least that's what's stamped on the bottom of mine).
Why just buy from not-China when you can buy from their enemies?
Taiwan is a nice democratic country which produces a heap of notebooks. Check out the Taiwanese options. :)
Issues about Chinese politics aside, I recently purchased my first Thinkpad, the T60p. With all the options, 3Gb of RAM (some models will take 4Gb, but the processor will only support 3.25 Gb, so that 4th Gb is money down the tubes) and the dedicated 256 Mb video card, it's a graphics powerhouse. Even though the card isn't optimized for gaming, it can handle anything you throw at it. I use mine for mainly photo editing, and it can't be beat. The only disappointment is that it wasn't available with a solid state hard drive when I bought it. Lenovo runs pretty good deals all the time, mine was 25% off when I bought it, and that definitely made buying a top of the line unit easier. I'm running XP Pro on it, and it's treating me great. Even the built in "Thinkvantage" software is useful, making it really easy to synch with projectors and such for presentations, and it's really good at finding your networks if you're like me and you work in multiple places and on the road. The only software problem I had involved the security software, and that was a conflict of my own making. The biometric scanner works great - totally not frustrating or inconvenient. The chassis is awesome. Nothing beats basic black for design, and it's built like a tank, but still very light, even when running with two batteries installed. The keyboard is natural and easy, almost as good as my Saitek gaming keyboard, and I get a lot less fatigue working on it than other laptops. The hinges seem to be indestructable, too.
1. Anything you believe is morally right is not silly at all. Trying to do the right thing and failing is far better than not doing anything at all, in my opinion.
2. I work for giant consulting company and the client I'm assigned to started with Dell's business models. Those are a rather flop. I wasn't one of the (un)lucky few to get one, so I can't detail what was so horrible about them, but I do know they suffer from what I call "the mysterious dell slowdown" which is where the machine gets slower with age even with no new software installations. If I haven't seen this effect myself, I wouldn't believe it and blame it on crapware. I also wouldn't belive it unless it were anywhere other than this client. They're EXTREMELY restrictive about their machines and as a result, I can vouch that these machines don't have any crapware on them.
The whole dell thing came to a very abrupt halt and people started getting HP Business models (nc6400). They're nowhere near as small and light as the Thinkpad X31 they've got me on, but they're durable and have a solid feel to them, are more portable/lighter than the Dells and have quite a nice display. Overall they seem like a rather comparable step up from the older ThinkPad models.
Bought a new T60 last spring, it's flimsy and definitely won't hold up to use as an on-the-road laptop, so I've gone back to my old T30 until I can find an alternative. I'll probably just give the new T60 to my sister since it will just sit on her desk and won't be used in a mobile manner. Too bad.
Run and catch, run and catch, the lamb is caught in the blackberry patch.
Saddam was a threat to the world because the US supported him.
===========
Saddam Hussein was our employee since 1959 when we used him to assasinate several high power individuals. Here is the rather longish UPI report.
Exclusive: Saddam key in early CIA plot
By Richard Sale
UPI Intelligence Correspondent
Published 4/10/2003 7:30 PM
U.S. forces in Baghdad might now be searching high and low for Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, but in the past Saddam was seen by U.S. intelligence services as a bulwark of anti-communism and they used him as their instrument for more than 40 years, according to former U.S. intelligence diplomats and intelligence officials.
United Press International has interviewed almost a dozen former U.S. diplomats, British scholars and former U.S. intelligence officials to piece together the following account. The CIA declined to comment on the report.
While many have thought that Saddam first became involved with U.S. intelligence agencies at the start of the September 1980 Iran-Iraq war, his first contacts with U.S. officials date back to 1959, when he was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad tasked with assassinating then Iraqi Prime Minister Gen. Abd al-Karim Qasim.
In July 1958, Qasim had overthrown the Iraqi monarchy in what one former U.S. diplomat, who asked not to be identified, described as "a horrible orgy of bloodshed."
According to current and former U.S. officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity, Iraq was then regarded as a key buffer and strategic asset in the Cold War with the Soviet Union. For example, in the mid-1950s, Iraq was quick to join the anti-Soviet Baghdad Pact which was to defend the region and whose members included Turkey, Britain, Iran and Pakistan.
Little attention was paid to Qasim's bloody and conspiratorial regime until his sudden decision to withdraw from the pact in 1959, an act that "freaked everybody out" according to a former senior U.S. State Department official.
Washington watched in marked dismay as Qasim began to buy arms from the Soviet Union and put his own domestic communists into ministry positions of "real power," according to this official. The domestic instability of the country prompted CIA Director Allan Dulles to say publicly that Iraq was "the most dangerous spot in the world."
In the mid-1980s, Miles Copeland, a veteran CIA operative, told UPI the CIA had enjoyed "close ties" with Qasim's ruling Baath Party, just as it had close connections with the intelligence service of Egyptian leader Gamel Abd Nassar. In a recent public statement, Roger Morris, a former National Security Council staffer in the 1970s, confirmed this claim, saying that the CIA had chosen the authoritarian and anti-communist Baath Party "as its instrument."
According to another former senior State Department official, Saddam, while only in his early 20s, became a part of a U.S. plot to get rid of Qasim. According to this source, Saddam was installed in an apartment in Baghdad on al-Rashid Street directly opposite Qasim's office in Iraq's Ministry of Defense, to observe Qasim's movements.
Adel Darwish, Middle East expert and author of "Unholy Babylon," said the move was done "with full knowledge of the CIA," and that Saddam's CIA handler was an Iraqi dentist working for CIA and Egyptian intelligence. U.S. officials separately confirmed Darwish's account.
Darwish said that Saddam's paymaster was Capt. Abdel Maquid Farid, the assistant military attaché at the Egyptian Embassy who paid for the apartment from his own personal account. Three former senior U.S. officials have confirmed that this is accurate.
The assassination was set for Oct. 7, 1959, but it was completely botched. Accounts differ. One former CIA official said that the 22-year-old Saddam lost his nerve and began firing too soon, killing Qasim's driver and only wounding Qasim in the shoulder and arm. Darwish told UPI that one of the assassins had bullets that did not fit his gun and that anoth
It does not support docking station, but it is a good solid machine, and runs OS-X in addition to Windows and Linux.
But all laptops are made, or at least uses parts made in Asia, so you can not go free of that.
You're not supposed to use it all day. It's there for easy access when 95% of your input is through the keyboard. I wish my desktop keyboard had a nipple, my hands would never have to leave the home row.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Please somebody mod this guy up. He's actually on topic and informative.
Moderators, the topic is "Replacing a Thinkpad", NOT boycotting China, not atrocities committed by various nations, and certainly not the Iraq War or Saddam Hussein. These are all good topics.
They are not the topic of this thread.
I was excited to read here about replacing a Thinkpad. I did not click on "Replacing a Thinkpad" to read about human rights violations or the erosion of the US constitution.
This is not DIGG. There is a -1 Off Topic mod. Please use it. Or at least don't mod stuff up that is so totally off topic while Mr. Plug here sits at a (Score:2) for talking about.. wait for it....
laptops!
Thank you.
(Now I'll sit and watch as I get modded Off Topic. Oh the irony.)
Operator, give me the number for 911!
Consider how many jobs are now outsourced to India and the Philippines, paying people slave wages. I am unsure if you can buy any product nowadays without it having a positive financial impact for a communist dictatorship, 3rd world country with slave wages, or something you are morally opposed to. I say hit craigslist and buy a Commodore 64, monitor, and 1581 disc drive...yep THE 1581! That way you won't be helping or hurting anyone.
I've wondered what I could do to help Burma/Myamar, as this situation has dragged on for years. If I can't get to them directly, this is a brilliant idea to do it indirectly. China through various funds owns 50% or more of Lenovo.
So, I'm not buying Lenovo - Dell gets the business. I get equivalent value anyway, and maybe the message will travel up chain from Lenovo to the Chinese government, that they have a PR problem they may want to deal with. I know this isn't as precisely targeted as I'd like, but still, how much less effective can it be than the sanctions have proven to be?
Great idea!
how about when American shoot People in IRAQ or Afganistan ?? Don't you feel bad buying anything that's produced by U.S ? Cut the crap and get on with it...
What Sig
Ask your current PC Vendor 3 questions:
1. Are 100% of their systems assembled in the USA by US workers?
2. Are 100% of their tech support calls and emails answered in the USA by US workers?
3. Do they have a company policy to NEVER export American jobs?
If they can't answer YES to all 3 questions, then come ask Systemax(TM). We say "Yes" to the American worker. We are the largest, most-reliable PC manufacturer in the country that can make these claims. We've been assembling and supporting the highest quality PCs for American businesses and families in Fletcher, Ohio for over 20 years. And here's a link to one of their ruggedized laptops: Item # BTO 038651
Easy, at least so far: LEGO products. Done. Used to be made only in Denmark. They've expanded outside that (Switz., USA, Czech Rep., Mexico) but so far it doesn't include China. When the big deal about your product is the high quality standards, producing in China just doesn't make sense.
Slashdot Patriotism: We Support our Dupes!
I'm using one to type this post. It is pretty sweet!
"Creativity is allowing ones self to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep" - Scott Adams
Can be read a few different ways: you could mean a computer that's ruggedized, you could mean a computer that's reliable, you could mean a combonation of the above...
If you want a ruggedized laptop, try the Dell Latitude ATG series. I've actually seen one be dropped from a height of about 4 feet, while running, without causing a hard drive crash or any appreciable damage to the thing. It didn't even crash/shut down.
As far as reliability goes, I can't complain about my Compaq R4000-series lappy. But it's 2 years old, so things may have changed... my next laptop is probably going to be one of the new Dells (not ruggedized, but the cheaper 1500 series Inspirons), but I haven't made up my mind yet. A pity it's so hard to get laptop parts and build your own these days. As far as reliability goes, my father is back on his old Dell Latitude again today, after his newer laptop fried itself again. He's never had any complaints with it, and it's certainly more reliable than the one he'd replaced it with, which has crapped out on him twice since he bought it a year ago. The first time was the screen, and this time it's the CPU fan, which caused the CPU itself to crater.
If you believe everything you read, you'd better not read. - Japanese proverb
As a fellow *20-generation ThinkPad compatriot, I say stick with what you know. I've read nothing but bad things about anything with a number higher than 23 after its letter. Badly soldered motherboards, superloud fans, you name it. Linux + XFCE will be usably fast on *20 ThinkPads for years to come and at a fraction of the price you'll pay for a more finicky newer model.
If it's performance you need, then Get A Fucking Desktop. That's what they're for. If you just want to get your work done, get another T20, swap the hard-drive over, and *BAM*, you're productive again. No OS reinstallation. No driver bullshit. Keep your software, keep your settings, and keep bringing home the bacon.
the multitouch thing is nice. I don't own a mac, but I think it's:
one finger tap: left click
two finger tap: right click
hold left finger while dragging right finger: scroll
actually far easier to use than "a trackpad."
Please stop stalking me, bro.
Iraq doesn't have Monks, they have Clerics.
So it's not the same thing, see?
Clerics can fight back, only they can't use any weapon with a blade.
Burmese Monks, I mean, what, I don't think they even know Kung Fu!
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
I got trapped in a conference room with a bunch of people doing that once with no mouse and a notebook with nubbin. Ouch. Index finger was raw after 12 hours. It sounds stupid, I know, but there was literally no time to stop and go get a mouse. Now I make sure there's at least one in the bag at all times, if not a USB drawing tablet as well. The WACOM drawing tablets trump damn near anything as a pointing device, BTW.
If you never make mistakes, it's probably because you're not doing anything.
as a reseller of notebooks, and yes i sell Thinkpads as well. If you want it i will get in what you want. Ultimately the choice is yours but... Flip your notebook over and look for the words "Assembled in XXXXXXX" The answer is not China. The answer is Mexico. Lenovo 3000s are made in China, Thinkpads are assembled just to the south. Go to a store, look at a Thinkpad and flip it over. Now the final profits go to a chinese company. Thats the other issue, but along the way if americans stop buying Thinkpads because of Chinese ownership you put Mexicans out of work. and they have a bigger need for a job so they sneak accoss the border illegally to find a job. Now you have a another problem, so its not always black and white. So if you want to do something about Manymar, call your congressman and tell him to speak up. As we look at the news, Iraq is not the only country outside of the United States.
There's another reason one might want to avoid IBM products: active collaboration with Nazi Germany.
http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/
Many popular companies of course had ties to the Nazis, but IBM's seem particularly strong. I'm surprised they are not more haunted by this legacy.
I've repaired and issued a lot of laptops in my day and I'm not aware of a true competitor to the T series in terms of chassis design.
I'd have to disagree--I'd have to say Toshiba from my experience is competitive in terms of build quality looking at the overall lineup.
If you are looking for durability Panasonic ToughBooks are far superior to Lenovos. Lenovos might have a good chassis design but I find they are "too dainty" in other ways (keyboards for example). Speaking from practical knowledge I'd much rather go with a ToughBook or maybe a Toshiba Tecra or Sattelite than a Thinkpad--also because they aren't Chinese companies (they are Japanese).
...seeing as 99% of the other things you own or are going to buy are made in China. Billions worth of products are sold each month but one line of notebooks will bring about great reform as the Chinese economy is crippled. Like so many "statements" they're more for show than anything else.
Since you mentioned shoes, I'll say that New Balance makes most of theirs in the US (and clearly labels which they are). In addition, they seem to hold up very well. I usually wear out shoes quickly (read: I'm a fat motherfucker) but the New Balance ones seem to last about twice as long as comparable "sweat shop" shoes.
Their T2010 is touchpad-less like ThinkPads.
The current Lenovo's (except the small X series) have both the trackpoint, a trackpad, and no less than 3 mouse buttons. Superior to the Mac in every way possible.
...is there no one left on Slashdot who grasps the concept of sarcasm?
You probably don't want to look inside any of your computers if you're going to be stupid enough to link what's going on in Myanmar with the Chinese - you'll find plenty of made in China parts inside.
Also, by your logic, don't buy anything Made in America, Made in UK, etc...
While I admire your stance, there's just one tiny little flaw in it...
What company do you think made your original Thinkpad?
IBM never did their own laptop production, its always been in Asia, and most of it was by Lenovo. All IBM did was finally sold them the rights to the name "Thinkpad" to put with the hardware they had been making under contract for IBM all along.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
Is what my last few Dells have said on the bottom.
If you can't stand the thought of buying a computer from a Chinese company while the mess is going on in Myanmar, just do what I did and buy a computer from Lenovo last year. Or, if your time machine isn't working, buy a used one made last year.
Alternatively, plan to buy a new Thinkpad as soon as the mess is over, and use your current computer until then. If you want to be political, call up Lenovo and let them know. It does nobody any good to silently boycott a company, since they don't know why their sales are dropping, so they don't know what to do to rectify the situation.
Anyway, I don't see you getting a new computer any time soon, since you'll obviously have to wait until 2009 at the earliest to get one from an American company, right?
I got an X-60 recently. It is my first Thinkpad and i cannot say enough about how good it is. I have owned a Dell & Toshiba before (personally and through work) and they had extreamly poor build quality in comparison. I had no idea at the time how bad they were. The Dell would flex horribly and the Tosh was super powerful but performed poorly and its fan sounded like a 747 taking off. The X-60 is very quite, super lightweight & performs very well. I got the tablet as i do a lot of meetings and MS OneNote is my choice for taking notes. The tablet also has much better screen res that the non-tablet. Cant recommend it enough.
Every single component in every single computer is... MADE IN CHINA!!!! You can't compute ethically so you may as well shoot yourself. Luckily for me, I'm a hypocrite.
You know, this should probably start people (and corporations) thinking. We've recently seen several things (lead paint, Burma, etc.) that make me think that we should *not* be contracting to China so much. I would think that more socially aware companies (i.e. Apple) would get on the "China is bad" bandwagon and STOP contracting with them. As with silk and child labor, WE here in the US can apply pressure to corporations that can make positive change around the world. There are plenty of other countries (i.e. most of South America, etc.) that can do what China is doing. As much as Clinton was a good president, most favored nation status for China with no provisions for human/labor rights was a serious mistake.
http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=311455&cid=20781875/ Seconding this. A T40 or T42 is your best bet. Secondly, an R series, next a G series, and only as a last resort, an X series.
That's quite an assertion there. When you give money to a Chinese company, that income is taxed by the Chinese government and part of the purchase price goes directly to support the atrocities committed by the Chinese government. This isn't speculation, this is fact.
At what point does anybody's race enter into this?
Is this a news report or a trailer for a motion picture?
At least two idiots moderated the parent post "Interesting".
Most of the Taiwanese OEMs have practically all of their manufacturing facilities in China, but at least they aren't directly involved in feeding the Party hierarchies. One or two of the Taiwanese manufacturers have kept their facilities in Taiwan though. Google should help identify them.
The Japanese makers have likewise most of their factories in China, but there has been a recent trend to look at other less hostile and more democratic Asian countries to host more of the manufacturing.
Some China trivia: How many knew that the "peoples' liberation army" (PLA) is "constitutionally" loyal to the Chinese "communist" Party instead of the state or the "government"? Or that the current CCP and PLA head honcho Hu Jintao (aka "president of the PRC") was nicknamed the Butcher of Tibet thanks to his bloody crackdown on Tibetan demonstrators in Lhasa while he was the Party supremo there in the late 80s. In the immediate aftermath tens of thousands of Tibetans were forced to watch how the Chinese executed their freedom-fighters in a sports stadium. That bloody act loyal to the Chinese communist Party helped fast-track him into the top Party leadership. What if the Burmese generals were massacring monks and civilians in a neighboring country..?
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
Ask and ye shall receive:
http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/mightymouse.html
http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/migmousblac.html
http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/en104wh.html
Can't vouch for any of these, having never tried 'em, but worth a look perhaps.
Like you, I'm a long-time ThinkPad owner (I've had 5). When the time came to replace my beloved ThinkPad T41p, I ordered the then-brand-new T60p. Unfortunately, the release got delayed, and being a full-time student, I needed something comparable in terms of power, size (1" thin), and durability, and I needed it yesterday. The next closest thing not made by Dell (boo hiss) was the MacBook Pro. I figured "what the hell" and went over to the Apple store and picked up the high-end 15" model. I run Windows Vista on it exclusively, and it runs great. Being really anal about needing two mouse buttons, I figured I'd never get used to the single button on the touchpad, but I've actually come to prefer one button and the quick Fn+Click action to bring up a context menu. Just make sure you load up Input Remapper to restore all the shortcut key functionality (as well as keyboard and screen backlight settings).
I have a pair of Smith brand "Slider01" sunglasses from REI on my face right now. They are clearly marked "France" on one of the arms, with no mention of China anywhere. Time to go shopping!
... is that you? Seriously, "liquidrage" and that meandering rant?
How confidently you speak for the one point two million corpses in Iraq, plus the four million or so refugees. You must have mad psychic powers.
While I agree not supporting China's stance is a good thing, there are better ways to make your impact known than simply "not giving them your money". In fact, I think if China had less money in some way or fashion, it wouldn't make a difference to the overall society. On the same note, replace china with anything. Even Iraq/Syria/Iran. Does fueling a country mean it is automatically (insert negative verb). Is giving money to a (noun related to same verb) even going to help when it is resources they need, not economy? If you give a (noun from above) a physical resource is one thing, if you give them money is another. Etc etc. If someone makes a quality product, are you going to deny it because of where it is made? Sadly, reforms are needed in a country, and purchasing power speaks nil about anything as far as ethics when it comes to grey areas of opinion. I mean like it or not but the asian market makes (some) great electronics parts. Are you just going to not use electronics? Asus makes nice laptops too. I've had great experience with a c90. I'd suggest going to notebookreview.com or forum.notebookreview.com and looking through some reviews to see what laptops are good to go with, from that perspective.
The nc6000's were great, but practically every nc6220 and nc6320 I've bought lately have had some sort of power problem (AC Adapter, battery, or charging circuit on the system board)
Most of them have been from HP's refurbished division, but still.
At least the cases have some metal to them (Note: Magnesium (HP) or Titanium (Lenovo) "composite" means, "mostly plastic"
Hopefully they have that fixed now that they seem to be retiring those models, but now I'm stuck with no laptop with a builtin serial port. Working on making a custom USB-to-serial adapter with a voltage doubler to make old equipment happy.
To some extent, our Latitude laptops for the past 18 months have come with assembled in ireland. that may help.
I recently had to replace a 600X that served me for over 7 years.... didnt want to get one of the new-fangled Lenovo-made systems, so I just bought a used T40 series on craigslist for under $500. Thing works awesome for me, but then Im not really doing any heavy lifting with it.
Well, (assuming he's American) it's silly to the extent that the US, rightly or wrongly, has killed more innocent bystanders in Iraq than the Burmese regime has killed monks in Burma, and I don't see him wanting to move to France or anything.
Plus there's no direct evidence that China is supporting the crackdown, and more evidence that they, in fact, are not happy about it.
Not too many regimes that don't have blood on their hands. Just don't buy a laptop, period. It's probably the kindest thing you can for our plundered old planet.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
Yes, there's lots of computer manufacturing in Taiwan. But some of it's _really_ in Taiwan, and some of it's Taiwanese companies doing the design and high-level work with the factories themselves in China. In general you can't tell which ones are which, but less of the money goes to China if you're buying from Taiwan.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
If you know someone at IBM (seriously, they have like 250-300,000 employees, if you don't know someone who works there, one of your friends does) it's still possible to buy used IBM-branded ThinkPads from the employee surplus store. I know a friend who just did it, and there aren't any restrictions on buying gear from the store for non-employees ("family and friends"); in fact they encourage it. The employee doesn't even need to pay for it or anything.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
But Americans are still Der Juden right?
I mean China can shot people in the back of the head and charge the family for the bullet. They can violate as many human rights as they want.
Islam can cut off a homosexuals head and force women into a role as chattel (as opposed to human beings).
But it is still the fault of The Jew Puppet Bu$Hitler Chimpy McHaliburtin, right?
Oh Canada.
The military junta running Myanmar has been doing so, with Chinese (and Russian and Indian) support, since 1962.
In that time, they've wrecked their environment, brutally oppressed dissent, and generally been a bunch of assholes. Why do you suddenly feel bad about it because some monks are involved?
Don't get me wrong. They're evil fuckers and should be wiped off the earth. But you're a little late to the "giving a shit" game, and refusing to buy a laptop from a Chinese run company is kind of like pissing into a forest fire.
The quality is still just as good. The service is a bit better. The fact that you get no CDs with your purchase is a bit tiresome, but at the same time being able to recreate your OS from scratch without any CDs is nice.
Just buy some Chinese Human Rights Abuse offsets. Then you can feel guilt free about buying chinese products.
This is like the kick I get out of (mostly ignorant, closed-minded, but well-meaning) people who buy cars only from US automakers. Most GMs and Fords are final-assembled in Canada or Mexico. Hondas are assembled in Alabama. Toyotas are assembled in California. Hyundais are assembled in Georgia. I dare you to figure out what % of any manufacturer's major components (engines, trannys, etc.) are made where.
I do right by me. The best product, as best I can determine, at the best price. Keep it simple.
Research shows that 67% of those who use the term "research shows", are just making shit up.
My laptop at work is a Dell.....which according to the tag physically on the laptop was made in Ireland. I wondered why I was constantly thirsty for Guinness at work!
Regimes can only really be replaced from the inside. This is why our military is such an utter failure in Iraq. Since the Chinese people don't have the grapes or the desire to over-throw the oppressive Commie regime, I just don't care about what happens to them because it's NOT MY BUSINESS. The actions of the Chinese government do affect me through their lack-luster quality standards. It just so happens that the only way I can affect the Chinese government is to affect their economy as best I can...and the best way to do that is to buy as little of their goods as possible.
Would you be spouting the same shit if it were pre-war Nazi Germany who made Thinkpads?
Blar.
Buy a used Thinkpad on eBay. There's a whole channel dedicated to inventory coming off of corporate leases.
For years my laptop buying method has been "the best T series Thinkpad I can get off of eBay for $500." It works great. I'm up to a T23 now.
There's more to it than this.
so what?
people might hate all our retarded governments the past 100 years which have bombed, invaded, overthrown and sabotaged more countries than many empires but they still buy and crave US goods.
worry more about what YOUR govt does than the neighbors.
I too replaced my old T23 about a year ago and was faced with the same dilemma..
I finally chose one of the HP business laptops.... I went with a NW8440 it is a mobile workstation and I have been very happy with it..... I was very seriously thinking of the T60P or the T43P but I wanted a wide format screen, which is not offered in the T43. I think the T40 series are probably the best laptops ever produced, and I have heard of problems with the T60's especially with static discharge while docking them in cold climates The HP business machines have been rock solid for me and it is a performer.
I have also heard alot of people suggest the MacbookPro's as a suitable replacement, but I dismiss this.. the Mac's are no where near as durable as the T' series... I have several powerbooks that are made with the same alumimim case as the MacbookPro and somthing as harmless as a laptop bag rolling of an airport waiting area chair onto a carpeted floor. (like a two foot drop in in a protective bag) will deform the soft alumimum case of the laptop.
The biggest manufacturer (under its own brand) that I'm aware of in Taiwan is Acer. They recently spun off their manufacturing arms as Wistron, but it's still based in Taiwan also. You can read about their global operations here.
Granted, like most everybody else, they do a lot of manufacturing in the PRC, but I find something that's only manufactured there (with the bulk of the profits going elsewhere) to be a lot less offensive than something that's designed, manufactured, and wholly brought to market by a PRC firm. (Of course, if what you find offensive about the PRC is worker abuses and not its geopolitics, then you should probably be even more bothered by stuff outsourced there for manufacturing.)
But Wistron is pretty diversified, in addition to the three locations in the PRC, they have their HQ, main R&D, and a manufacturing center in Taiwan, a service center in Japan, a factory in the Czech Republic, a service center in the Netherlands, a factory in Juarez, a service center in Dallas and a customer service center in Round Rock. They're openly traded on the Taiwan exchange and although I can't find a breakdown of all major holders that would definitively exclude the PRC government, their major holder is Acer (at ~35%).
I think you could buy from them in reasonably clear conscience, plus you'd have the additional bonus of giving the profits to a Taiwanese company, which ought to get you some sort of anti-PRC karma points somewhere.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Being a huge fan of thinkpads also, i've been reluctant to use other machines. I was a big fan of my old t43, then one of my contractors bought me a t60 which is nice also but still not an original thinkpad. One of the laptops that i've been suprised i actually like and almost prefer over the thinkpad is the HP NC series. My company just picked up an NC6400 for me and the thing is pretty bad ass. Nicely built, feels good using it, the screen is great and so is the keyboard. Havn't noticed it being flakey or anything and aside from not having something similar to a thinklight it reminds me of older thinkpads. The new HP business class laptops i would venture to say are worth keeping an eye on. HP is making a comeback, and its about time one of the big boys stepped up and started making some nice equipment.
You can get Italian sunglasses.
I have a pair of Arnette sunglasses that I love, and they're made in Italy. I don't remember how much they cost.
Yes, they're prescriptionable. The model I have is "STANCE 4020-01/81".
If a citizen of another country believes that the U.S. is supporting immoral policies in the world they should ABSOLUTELY take it out on U.S. businesses in the sense of withholding their business.
Same applies to citizens of the U.S. with respect to any other country.
Same applies to citizens of any country with respect to their own country.
Never support what you believe to be immoral. Always take a stand. If everyone took a stand, this kind of crap would stop.
Chains find only willing wrists!
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
I just had to comment on this one as I'm very much fed up with the myth that US destroyed the infrastructure of Iraq.
The truth of the matter is that even before first Gulf war, there wasn't much infrastructure up in Iraq compared to developed countries. In Iraq you basically had few roads, few railroad connections, oil production industry and some civil infrastructure. When the US in the first Gulf war attacked Iraq, US didn't do blind bombing of Iraqi cities as they did in the second world war. In the second Gulf war US did even less damage to infrastructure as they had more advanced weaponry available and as they were making a land invasion there was no need for massive world war two style bombing runs. The fact of the matter is that Iraq was before first Gulf war a third world country without industrial production and transportation infrastructure, and that should not be counted to the fault of US.
It should be also said that it's a myth that Germany and Japan were totally destroyed. They weren't. After the second world war both Germany and Japan had most of their industrial and transportation infrastructure up. Yes, the population centers in both countries were very heavily bombed and to late 50s you could find ruins in many Germans cities, but the factories, electric plants and damns, railroads, roads and harbors were very much intact. Actually the German infrastructure was in so good shape that the allies had to do demolishing to try to achieve the vision of pasteurized Germany as visioned in Morgenthau plan. It should also be noted that after the war, German agricultural and industrial production didn't collapse because of failure of the infrastructure, but for the politics of occupying forces: there were no effective occupation government, monetary system was by purpose shut down and major German corporations were halted. After the implementation of remnants of Morgenthau plan was shut down and there some governing happening, the economy recovered and started to boom. In this context Marshall loans given to German government didn't start the recovery, but made the recovery more snappier.
Now I want to point out that I'm not denying that the US as and occupation force in Iraq hasn't had difficulties and they wouldn't be free from critic. What I'm saying is that Iraq was before a third world country without developed infrastructure and it still is, and that is not the fault of US.
PS. I'm not an American, and I'm not trying to defend US nor it's action. I just want that false arguments are not used in a discussion. The myth of destroyed Iraq infrastructure is one and the same myth about post war Germany and Japan is second.
Survey research tool for commercial and scientific use
"Well, at least they don't shoot demonstrators in the US. "
You mean recently I presume?
Need Mercedes parts ?
If I were in a job that trapped me in conference rooms for 12 hours at a time, I'd just shoot myself and get it over.
I researched this a couple of weeks ago, there are some notebooks not made in China, but these are mostly high-end expensive ones (as expected) from Japanese,Taiwanese and Korean manufacturers. However, i was unable to find something quite like a T series (I'm writing this on a T42), unless you live in Europe where Fujitsu-Siemens sells several interesting models like the http://www.fujitsu-siemens.com/products/deskbound/workstations/celsius_h.html Celsius H mobile workstation. The high-end models are even made in Germany in what must be the last notebook factory in the "west".
What you're gonna beat someone to death with Mr Hardass? your keyboard? Oooo, you are soooo hard. i'm scared.....
From my job experience, Toshiba Satellites were the most reliable laptop. When I had to choose mine, I got Satellite as well, and had it over 4 years without a single problem (I did put more memory and got a faster and bigger drive). Still using it, and don't feel a need to upgrade.
I'm not saying that they shouldn't have a couple buttons on the mac. Mac zealots piss me off. But here's a list of things unbelievably better than the options:
1. magnetic power connector (admittedly because they had the big power-connector-snapping-off-and-remaining-unsupported issue)
2. multitouch on the trackpad.
I'm just saying that calling a mac trackpad with multitouch "a trackpad with a single button" is like calling the iPhone a Blackberry with single button. Think about it.
Oh, by the way, I just saw Steve Wozniak speak at a WorkNet Pinellas event, and I am now aware where a good portion of the Apple Is A Loving God mythology comes from. That guy is freaking amazing. Wonderful talk.
Please stop stalking me, bro.
Dr. Mengele, is that you?
Catalin Braescu
Ofaly.com
Either buy a used thinkpad or a refurb. www.ibm.com still sells thinkpads that are refurbs. Also IBM does the tech support for the thinkpads out of Atlanta GA.I miss working thinkpad support.
SimonTek
So by this metric, if the US simply executed its criminals w/o trial, we would be the BEST country on the planet.
Awesome
You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
Sheesh you people are retarded. Apple may be an American company but the stuff is assembled in Taiwan and 90%+ of the components are made in China.
I would say it's impossible; Impossible to buy anything electronic that contains no Chinese made components.
How about those lead based toys the Chinese are selling you?
lol, internet tough guy.
"Rubbing the clit point all day hurts my finger "
Uh-huh.
Ya know what? I recently bought a few guitars and haven't played in years. At first my fingers hurt from fingering chords but after a while they calloused up, got stronger and I could finger chords like a madman.
Think of it as exercise.
Need Mercedes parts ?
Loveno employees and stockholders are not the Chinese government, right? I guess some tax money would go to the Chinese government but is there a good government in the world? That point is moot.
Oh, but it pays. Quite handsomely. Sometimes a little suffering is worth it. ;)
If you never make mistakes, it's probably because you're not doing anything.
Oh.. then we should all quit using anything american because americans are fscking around in Iraq and Afghanistan
A computer vendor and repair person told me today that Fujitsu's are still made in Japan. He likes them. Since I have a brand new Lenovo Thinkpad, I mentioned that I wondered whether the quality would start going down. He laughed at me, and said it already had. Regarding making purchasing decisions partially based on personal ethics, I don't really understand what's wrong with the approach. You have to live with yourself and if others have no problem buying Chinese, that's their business not yours.
Did it occur to you that some of us voted for him *precisely* for that reason?
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
I ordered this system from IBM, along with a Ultrabay battery. As it looks, it kicks ass, considering that I've seen what IBM quality is. It's good.
1 SYS.6465CT CONFIGURED SYSTEM $1,200.35 $1,200.35
The above product code consists of the following component(s):
1 6465CTO CTO THINKPAD T61 WIDESCREEN-1Y $1,129.55
1 42V8190 SBB INTEL CORE 2 DUO PRCESST7300 $0.00
1 42V8012 VBB MS WIN VISTA HOME BASIC $0.00
1 42V8568 SBB MS WINVISTA HM BS32 US ENG $0.00
1 42V8286 SBB 15.4 WXGA TFT $0.00
1 42X0817 SBB INT GMAX3100 GM965W $0.00
1 41W2063 VBB 2GB PC2-5300 667MHZ 2DIMM $0.00
1 42V8195 SBB KEYBOARD US ENGLISH $0.00
1 42V8295 SBB UN(TRACKPOINT TOUCHPAD) $0.00
1 42V8165 SBB 120GB HDD,5400RPM $0.00
1 42V8172 SBB DVD REC.8XMAXDUAL LAY UB-S $0.00
1 42X0805 VBB PC CARDSLOT EX CARDSLOT $0.00
1 41W1501 SBB INTELPRO/WL3945ABGUSCNLAAP $0.00
1 62P6054 VBB INTEGR.BLUETOOTH PAN $0.00
1 39T6651 SBB 9 CELL LI-ION BATTERY $0.00
1 41W1787 SBB CPK NORTH AMERICA $0.00
1 42V8339 SBB LPACK US ENGLISH $0.00
1 41C9170 LENOVO THINKPLUS EXTENDED SERVICE AGREEMENT - 3 YEARS - PICK-UP AND RETURN
Total of $1,368. Damn fair from what I've had to go through with Hewlett Crapard with their "tech support".
I feel, based on my observations of the past two years, (when every company moved their manufacturing to China) quality of every laptop is not what it used to be. I'm typing this on R32 so I have a different take on quality. I don't think one can get a laptop that performs as good as my R32 and I support HP, Toshibas, Panasonic (TOUGHBOOK) and Lenovo.
On the other note I paid $1800 for it which would easily buy me two laptops of the same speed.
Thinkpads are gone the way that HP 4M(VL) laser printer is gone. Those times will never come back.
My question to the reader is where else than China are laptops made? So much for freedom of choice. At least you're entitled to your opinion.
You can buy a Panasonic Toughbook, that's about it.
Chances are, any new laptop you buy, is most likely at least produced in China. Even Clevo, a Taiwanese company, produces its laptops in China. Just buy another Thinkpad, they're still great and Lenevo has a better record than all the other laptop producers in terms of labor and pollution.
Get the lead out and look at Fujitsu LifeBook! I just spent ~$2k on a 1610 mini with added DVD burner, floppy, and bonus Lexmark Scan/Print/Fax!
Quality piece. Was made in and shipped from Japan.
Like NT5; this is my only NT5.1/XP & I spooked at the End-Usage-misLicense-disAgreement I Called Fuji once, got support from CANADA. Guys said 24/7 lifetime Fujitsu support.
Oh my, the endurapro looks awesome. It actually has buckling springs like a Model M. That's awfully tempting, thanks!
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
I'm also a long-time Thinkpad user (I still have a working 600X running Linux), and the only notebook I've ever used that I think is as good (albeit very different) than a ThinkPad is the MacBook Pro I'm using at work. If you really want something other than a ThinkPad, give one a look.
That said, there isn't anything you can buy that won' have a bunch of its components made and/or assembled in China. That's just a fact on the ground. Another poster mentioned that Fujitsu notebooks are still made in Japan. Assuming that as true without verifying it, even if the machine is made in Japan, some of its components will almost certainly be made in China, especially electrical things like power supplies.
Whether that matter of degree (a Japanese-made machine with some Chinese parts Vs. a Chinese-made machine with some non-Chinese parts) is important or not is something you'll have to decide for yourself, but one thing is pretty sure: it's very, very hard, if not impossible, to buy a computer that doesn't have at least some Chinese-made parts.
Finally, while China is a major vendor (at least) to the Burmese government for arms, and has human rights problems of its own, it is not China that is doing this, it is the Burmese government. Also, AFAIK, Lenovo is not a state-owned company (someone correct me on that if I'm wrong), so they are sort of an innocent bystander to this. Still, if you feel China is culpable enough here that you want to boycott all Chinese products, then do what you have to do.
A coworker bought one a year ago, again claiming it was the most reliable thing ever. It overheated and died within a month. Under warentee, he returned it for another one. That one summarily died at the hands of a 12 oz can of coke, falling from a shelf on his desk spitting the plastic case. The thrid one seems to be working ok though, and he's decided to stop storing cans of coke on the shelf.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Actually, I'm pretty sure the T20 was made in USA or Mexico. That used to be why they were so expensive compared to the R and A series, which are all made overseas. Most IBM contractors I knew carried the T series at the time so that's what I got, after having used R and A series for years at work.
I'm currently working on a Dell Latitude at work, though I still have my T23 at home. I can't recommend a Dell Inspiron, too many of my friends have had terrible times with those. The latitude is a decent machine, all things considered. Also, consider a MacBook, even if you want to run Windows on it.
If you think that your spending patterns will affect how business is done ... well it's time to leave Wonderland and come to reality. ...eBay!!).
If you really want to make a change - spend your $$ to buy a politician. Yes I really mean BUY.
Most democracies (at least that I know of - i.e. USA/UK/India) have become farces where the people don't matter. They get to choose between say 4-5 equally rotten, mutually indistinguishable, scoundrels (in the US' case it's a binary choice between an ass and a donkey).
So given this state of affairs - it's best to buy a politician - plainly and directly (say an ad on CraigsList or
Rather than go from
we-the-people==>companies==>"the economy"==>Dollars==>policies
why don't we cut the crap and just go from
we-the-people==>Dollars=>policies!
Where do I try to speak for anybody in this sentence? The corpses in Iraq don't matter to me. If you had any reading comprehension skills, you'd notice I'm only speaking for myself.
I just owned you again.
You could try buying a Panasonic Toughbook. Not really cheap but as far as I know, they're made in Japan. AND they're quality stuff.
Taiwan is a modern, peaceful democracy. You could think of it as "the anti-China." I think MacBooks and iPods are manufactured there.
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
I'm the IT Manager of a large construction company and my employees put a lot of strain on their laptops (jobsite's are very dusty and whatnot)
I've looked into the Panasonic Toughbook series and they aren't nearly as bulletproof as everyone thinks they are....at least the older ones weren't....
Dell does make a single hardened model: the Latitude ATG 630. It has all the requirements of a hardenend unit but from a Cost Benefit point of view, the extra $900.00 for the body and internal armor, the piddly 32GB Solid State HD, and the bright-light viewable screen.
http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/latit_atg_d630?c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04
The only drawback with these machines is they come with integrated graphics, but that might not be an issue for you. You can get it with either XP or Vista, and they have some Ubuntu drivers listed on their support page.
You can also look at these guys: http://www.ruggednotebooks.com/ but I think that would probably be overkill
Good luck. I would say the closest would be either Apple or HP.
God, Root, Whats the difference?
There are several places on the net that sell SAGER LapTops...
These are MONSTER Machines...
DURABLE, RELIABLE, PACKED WITH EVERYTHING...
The only drawback is, they are expensive...
http://www.sagernotebook.com/default.php
(machine packed with everything - and I do mean EVERYTHING) $4814.00
--E--
Chinese or not, my Z61t is da bomb.
The last of the great T line of IBM laptops. You could also try Toshiba Portege 3490CT which is pretty much the same hardware in a smaller magnesium casing.
China in 2007 is just like China in 1977 except that its central bank owns more Treasuries. Why didn't I realize that?
Look, anyone who reads a newspaper knows that, since that time, (a) a panoply of totalitarian institutions have been dismantled, leading to unprecedented levels of personal autonomy from the state; (b) standards of living have grown dramatically, as peasants join the industrial economy and the middle class swells; (c) economic freedoms have gone from negligible to moderate, and even in some ways robust; and that (d) these changes are strongly correlated with massive exports of manufactured goods and an influx of foreign risk capital. You draw your own conclusions.
Seriously. Insert Apple, Lenovo, Fujitsu, Dell, etc.... I swear that 50% of the posts are ads.
I guess you can't buy anything from American companies either, since the US govt. borrows vast sums of money from China. It's admirable that you have a cause that you believe in, but it's misguided.
er, yeah. the exact same link i gave in *my* post ...
For the geographically challenged moderators: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China
Another FYI: Sure Asus appears to be made in Taiwan. But assembly costs are still 1/2 or less of Taiwan's in China. I'll bet the last dollar in my pocket that Asus, like every major Taiwanese manufacturer is practically building the laptop in China.
Technically it may say Made in Taiwan, but practically, it's not. It just can't be. The wikipedia says so: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASUS
Got Trader Joe's? friendwich.com RSS feeds work now!
If you feel strongly against what Chinese government stands for, then you should not buy anything coming from China. It does not make sense that you are searching for ways to pay as little as possible to China. Actually, you should not pay any, otherwise you are being a hypocrite. T20 is P3 laptop and you can find plenty of used ThinkPads on an eBay. I think P4M 2.0GHz line of ThinkPad is priced at $350 on an eBay and every penny would stay in the US.
Most everything else is made in Taiwan, a separate country, containing the exiles who fled China when the communists took over.
I manage a university bio materials lab and do not work for any electronics firm.
My Fuj 1610 mini has faults due to size. ~9" screen, narrow keys, deficits due to size. But is is easy to carry & use.
And QUALITY and not supporting the country selling bad tires, toxic food, lead toys was his goal!
to my knowledge, there was more than protectionism involved in the massive boom in japanese electronics manufacturing (and cars, for that matter).
this might just be my bias coming from my backfround in mathematics and statistics, but SPC (statistical process control) was a huge part of their success. the japanese made good use of deming theory, shewhart charts, and sample based quality-checking (instead of manual inspection of all output). basically, they used the best scientific knowledge related to manufacture to produce a higher quality product and reduce costs.
my other bias come into it now. i work in the area labor market economics, and labor costs played a large part in it. when labor is cheaper, then the products are cheaper. wages were lower in postwar japan than here in the states, for a number of reasons. firstly, they lost the war, which ment that the country was a little worse off and the going rate for labor was in general cheaper. next, us manufacturing was largely unionized, leading to increased labor costs (not an argument for or against unions... just saying that unionized workers are more expensive than nonunion counterparts... real cheese is more expensive than velveeta...).
so for japanese manufacturing exports:
better quality control = cheaper products
cheaper labor costs = cheaper products
protectionism = cheaper products
on to china: i figure that in today's world, what with WTO and NAFTA and FTAA and all the globalization and free trade stuff, china would not be able to systemically put up protectionist barriers to trade, akin to those used by japan.
I have worked with all of the notebook OEMs and can tell you that:
- The Thinkpad T-series have always been designed in the Yamato design centre near Tokyo
- When Lenovo acquired IBM's PC business, this design centre and its employees became part of lenovo
- The very same people are designing the T-series machines today as did in the IBM days
- The design rigour, testing and general quality level is the highest in the industry, BAR NONE.
Note that all this applies for the T-series Thinkpads only. I know that some of their other lines are designed in Japan, but other Thinkpads may be designed in Taiwan or China.
Hope this helps. I love my T42p, would love to replace it with another T-series...
I own a t41p th servell serves me well. I used my friends T60 and the new keyboard arrangement annoyed me. I was impressed by the build quality of the dell Vostro and the HP NC8460(they have the nub which I still like to use sometimes)
Foxconn is a Taiwanese company, with facilities in China. It also has operations here in Houston, TX as well as across the border in Mexico. It is true that a majority of assembly work or low-end, intensive labor are done in China. It's owner/Chairman of the company is one of the wealthiest person in Taiwan. And yes, his residency is in Taiwan. The information above are well documented and available on the Internet.
Foxconn is also a public traded company in Taiwan's stock market.
The Land of Taiwan has a fully democratic government with a president directly elected by its people. The official name of the government is The Republic of China. However the mainland Chinese government (with the official name People's Republic of China) does not rule Taiwan. The last time I checked (few minutes ago) people in Taiwan still runs their own government without directions from the Chinese government. It has laws and regulations to protect its citizens, just as it is here in Western countries.
Please check your resources before dogging another company who are in the same position as Dell, HP. Those are OEM companies, but they are OEMs that are based in Taiwan and have the same delima as HP and Dell does.
A side note: Most of the WD harddrives I have come across are made in Singapore. Another Democratic country. Seagate's harddrive are partly made in Malaysia and partly made in China.
Panasonic has a series of amazing laptops that's mostly sold in Japan, although one model (the Y series) has made it to the US. I'm using an R6 that I got through geekstuff4u, a company in Tokyo that exports stuff for geeky foreigners... The R6, the smallest model, has a 10" screen, core 2 duo processor, 4+ hours of battery time, 80gb harddrive, weighs about 2 pounds - and can withstand a drop from 2.5 feet, 200 pounds of pressure and the keyboard is waterproof. (No, I haven't tried it myself ... but there are videos on Youtube with people confirming this.)
The Y is the largest in the series. It has the same durability specs (drop, water et.c.) as the smaller ones, but it comes with a built in optical drive and a 14" screen, and weighs about 3 pounds. That one is officially for sale in the US.
Oh, and I've been told that this Panasonic series is all manufactured in Japan. In the US, the Y5 (latest model, I believe) is sold as part of the toughbook series, but in Japan the series is called "Let's note!".
Good luck.
Mod up pls kthx
For those who didn't get it, please refer to post 20783211 above.
Microsoft put the "sucks" in "success".
With the steady slide of the value of the US dollar compared to every other currency in the world, it'll get easier to get products that are made in the US.
I got this about a month ago and in less than a week it was freezing 2-3 times a day. I suspected Norton or some of the other installed software. Well, I uninstalled Norton. Still freezing up. Tried to uninstall as much of the built-in tools/security software I could, but still froze. Alas, I put in for a new laptop and got a MacBook Pro instead. I'm a PC guy in a mac world now, but it feels better than the Lenovo Thinkpad did.
Nawwww...
404555974007725459910684486621289147856453481154 in hex is "You sank my Battleship?"
[GPG key in journal]
It's been a while since I last bought LEGO for my son - he has plenty! - so I can't say whether there is any LEGO production in China at the moment. It may be so. I just checked Google ('"LEGO" "produktion" "Kina"', yielding mostly Danish results, which are perhaps a little more likely to be accurate) and there are several hits that seem to indicate that LEGO has no or very little production based in China. Not out of ethical concerns, but because it didn't really make economical sense.
However, the financial troubles LEGO was in just a few years ago are over now, and LEGO is doing very fine again. This success is partly based on outsourcing the production almost completely from Denmark (where the industries are now fast running out of hands due to a workforce shortage - we are fast going towards zero or negative unemployment, and our economy is stronger than ever), and on reinstating classic/basic LEGO values and principles, and the traditional product lines. (The huge success of Star Wars LEGO may also have played a part.)
So, regarding China, LEGO is not a big player. I suspect another good reason is that the quality achievable would not be up to the extreme standards of LEGO, whether it be plastic composition and color, or dimensional tolerances. Back in the 80es, LEGO was criticized sharply in Denmark because the yellow bricks were suspected to contain cadmium. I doubt they want to repeat that on a world scale, like what happened recently with Mattel. Chinese plastic just stinks - literally.
Regarding finance, LEGO is doing very well right now, and saving up to ensure they can withstand another crisis if necessary. So, to sum things up, all is well in LEGOland. (Although LEGO doesn't actually own the first LEGOland themepark anymore, which I think is a big shame, LEGO still controls its "spirit".)
-Lasse
Here's something to get you started.
Considering that the modern idea of civilized behaviour entails peoples' rights to such incomprehensible things as self-determination and the freedom of speech and religion and especially from the fear of remorseless genocide by expansionist neighbours, the chinese Han-chauvinists certainly have great deal of catching up to do in terms of civilization. The jingoistic Party indoctrination appears to work wonders on Chinese people's critical thinking faculties.
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
I guess for the authentic nipple experience you need an IBM Space Saver. I have one, and it's pretty much the best keyboard I know.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
There might be some parts from China, but Panasonic is famously known as being the last Japanese computer maker that still designs and builds their machines in Japan (not to mention tortures them there). Not all of the Toughbooks are huge and klunky. They have a "business rugged" or "semi rugged" line. Fanless (fans wear out and clog with dust and lint). Keys you can pop off and back on without breaking them. Foam padding around the harddrive. Extra durable hinges. I love my CF-R1. It goes with me just about everywhere and it's the only machine I've had that survived more than a year of that abuse. dynamism.com imports them. They're pricey for the specs, but if you look at it in terms of dollar per operating hour, they're actually a really *good* deal. If Americans weren't hell bent on buying disposable garbage at bottom dollar, these things would be a lot more popular. Oh yeah, Panasonic actually did start reselling those things here themselves from their own website, at least for a few models (the 2.0 pound CF-R series is the smallest and isn't available directly from Panasonic but dynamism had it, but you probably want one of the larger ones anyway).
Cheers,
-scott
scott@slowass.net
The U.S. is invading every damn country in the world and is responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians and you're not going to buy a laptop from a Chinese company because of civil rights issues? Maybe you should also use leaves from your backyard instead of toilet paper from now on.
beat someone to death with your keyboard?
Pray that it's not Made in China, Mr Hardass. My Model M keyboard will have that for lunch!!
My company hands out laptops on a two year cycle - leasing helps maintain a fresh line while making the costs bearable.
The R50 series was the last release and was well received. Not the cutting edge hardware like the T series, but a fast P4, 2gb of ram, ati video, and dvd-rw drive made for a healthy product. So far these were bullet proof, equally well received by windows and linux users.
The new T-60 series (made by lenovo) have not been well received. Many driver issues and hardware failures have lead to a sour review. But like any other big company, they continue to roll them out. We're now seeing T60p and T61's hitting the desks and seem to be better. Maybe it was the typical V1.0 of the T60s that showed they were released prematurely.
But, in my experience - Lenovo ThinkPad series still trumps most other manufacturers in regards to Technical Support, Latest Tech, and linux driver support.
The silly part is being subjected to propaganda and take that as your own moral convictions.
To the submitter:
I don't know about 7 years ago, but IBM laptops were always manufactured for IBM by Lenovo. IBM simply gave them the rights to it and sold off their whole business to them, exclusively.
So, in reality, nothing has changed. You have been using a Lenovo laptop this whole time...
I have a Lenovo, and its pretty good (not the best, but good). So suck up and buy one, or pay more and get a Dell
Frankly, I appreciate you cynical outlook. Global industry is much more pervasive than we are willing to admit . When made in America means 50% + .000000...1 what action is possible to alter world politics? Well, my perspective is to do what YOU can. There is this thing, I don't know if you've heard about it, called the internet. Search for where parts are sourced, invest in companies promoting human rights, have third party verified labour practices. You will find that there is a large and GROWING community that is pushing shareholder votes on these issues. Why do think that DELL is offering recycling and vostro lines of computers? Take advantage. Get involved. One person can and does make a difference.
DNA, the splice of life.
Get a used R60 or T42p. You'll be able to extract years out of it. They were the last laptops sold just before Lenovo stepped in. I'm not sure but I think early T60 laptops were also IBM.
If you're feeling nationalist... buy a Gateway. And while you're at it, get a Dodge Neon as well. And drink American beer.
Just kidding...
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
certainly your moral fabric should also recoil in horror if you were to purchase an _american_ laptop.
theres a little police action happening in a small oil-rich country in the middle east that has been shown to have been predicated on fabrication and hubris, clearly against all international law, and has left anywhere between 100,000 and 500,000 dead ( not to mention many more displaced ).
whats more, even long term public figures are publicly acknowledging it was entirely about the oil: link , literally bush and co invaded a sovereign nation in order to take control of that nations natural resources.
now, if you can overlook this little indiscretion, i'm sure you can also manage to overlook one sovereign state ( china ) _not_ intervening in another sovereign states' affairs ( burma ).
just buy the lenovo.
I suggest one of the new macbooks. They are very well built, better even than the thinkpad in my opinion. You can install any OS you want on them. I ended up getting a Thinkpad T60 simply because I didn't like the price for the model I wanted on the macbook (black cover), and I don't really like the wide screen.
I've had T-series notebooks for years, most recently a T42p. About 9 months ago I switched to a Fujitsu P7230 Lifebook and I love it. It's been rock solid. I can swap the DVD drive for a second battery and I get 7 hours of battery life with both batteries combined. It's amazing. It's a well-built solid machine and I would buy one again. The Dell and HP machines I looked at in comparison were all heavier and had worse battery life. The Sony's are nice (if you get one made by Sony), but they're expensive and they come with features I don't want (will Sony please just kill the Memory Stick). For comparison. The Fujitsu has an SD slot. I can't say enough good things about the Fujitsu. Larry
I think it takes a lot of moral fibre to make a stand like that Good on you
When I first read about the IBM/Lenovo split, I recall that Lenovo got the rights to some very specific uses of the IBM and "Think" (e.g. "ThinkPad", ThinkWhatever) trademarks, for a certain amount of time. I'm not sure when that expires, but I don't doubt that they could be making ones and still using the brand (and why not, it's a solid brand -- I would).
From what I've heard, most of the negative comments about the "new" Lenovo units are about the value-priced (grey) ones, and fewer are about the actual ThinkPads. Most of the negative things I have heard about the ThinkPads are about the keyboards, and it seems to be a hit-or-miss thing (the keyboards from one factory are preferred by some users over the others).
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
As a chinese myself, I hate the communist government too. Trust me, very much hated! However, a violent revolution is NOT, definitely NOT, in the interest of the Chinese people. Trust me, only the people will suffer. Look at Iraq. How many innocent people are killed everyday, by the militia or by the U.S. soldiers?
To some extent, I do have to give some credit to the current Chinese government. The life of the Chinese people are way better than 30 years ago. It gives me hope that a peaceful transition might be possible.
I have one thing in common with you: for at least 15 years, I have been refusing to buy (or trying my best not to buy) any Japanese made stuff. However, sometimes what can you do when you found out that the DVD-ROM in the T40 you have is a fucking Fujitsu? (btw: I simply hated what the Japanese did to China in WWII and their current very hostile military movement. Let's hope there will never be another disaster in Asia caused by the Japs.)
How dumb! It seems to me Lenovo would be loaded with computer nerds, insulting Lenovo in this situation would be like going after Dianne Feinstein for the wrongdoings of the Republican administration. One should stick up for one's friends. In the year 2007, Machiavellianism is supposed to be a bad joke, apparently some people haven't figured this out. Attacking Lenovo for the problems of the PLA, I think I saw something like this on The Brady Bunch a long time ago. Or was it Full House, when the twins were blamed for something that that neighbor kid did? Or maybe it was Urkel. Or was it on Little House, when Nellie Oleson breaks something in her parents' store and blames it on Laura Ingalls? Isn't that kind of plot structure on TV every night? Why do I, a Slashdot reader, have to put up with political philistinism from a bunch of people who can't stop showing off how smart they are in other areas? And why are we as a society producing all this electronic mediaware if people aren't learning anything from it? It's not like there is some shortage of sitcoms. And its not like this Myanmar situation isn't a real emergency that needs expert attention and thoughtful consideration instead of this long uninterrupted sociopolitical discussion group malpractice. Maybe some normal people in the Chinese government will decide to punish the liberal nerd community for this chronic malpractice by blaming Apple or Linux for the corporate deeds of Microsoft!
Exactly which Union (as in 'non-union') do you have in mind?
For example, one ThinkPad R30 that I know of, was manufactured in the UK by IBM United Kingdom Ltd.
The MacBook Pros are very solidly built and offer all the whizz bang you could ever want. They run Windows XP or Vista natively too if you absolutely and foolishly insist... Linux too, but probably not as easily, since Apple uses EFI and not BIOS.
Beauty is in the beholder of the eye.
With your CIA jails and Mr Bush. You are a joke.
What kind of german piece of shit stores cans of soda anywhere but the fridge. Nazis...
Bah.
1 Gig.
Hooray for the AC currents on slashdot.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
I hate what the US and the UK are doing in Iraq.
Now pray tell me, what should I boycott? If I add that to a boycott against China then my only option would be to live in a cave, but not here in the UK I suppose because I would still be aiding the disastrous foreign UK policies. I suppose I should get rid of my job and feed myself with wild strawberries and road kill....
When you stand for your principles you have to strike a balance between what you would like to do and between what you can do and will have any real effect.
Nowadays media shamming is the most successful tool against any government, any person committed enough can help a lot with that.
Or give money to one of several organizations doing work in the ground documenting abuses of human rights and helping political prisoners.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Say what you may wish, but Chinese people live in general terms better today than what they did 50 or 100 years ago, and many of them are old enough to remember those times and tell their younger relatives about them.
Somebody that is working in a manufacturing plant in China earning a reasonable living will have on his mind the bad times when granddad almost starved to death during the first half of the last century or will recall the histories of the disastrous Cultural Revolution that dad had to endure. Compared to that the current lot, promoting economic development, are real saints.
People in the West think that democracy with multi party elections is the only way to achieve material progress, places like Singapore (a dictatorship in all sense but name), Malaysia (an "apartheid light" Muslim state) and of course China (which defies definition nowadays, they are not a dictatorship strictly speaking, they are not a democracy in the western sense, but they have elections) probe that people can be bettered by different social means and they will fierce loyal to their respective leaderships even if by Western standards the governments are dismal in one way or another.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
guangxi is not corruption, no matter how you want to spin it. Corruption is corruption and it is completely different from the concept of guangxi.
Also naming the Chinese government as fascist shows a lack of education that should not go unnoticed.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
In today's world Nazi Germany would have investments everywhere and would produce good for many countries.
But in today's world a country like Nazi Germany can't exists, by the simple fact that Nazi Germany has already happened and it is highly unlikely it will happen again.
In the years previous to WWII international commerce was not as big as it is today, so any boycott would have been pointless.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
In the meantime between 30000 and 600000 people (depending who you believe) have died in Iraq as a consequence of the US invasion.
But they are free to pray.
Give me a fucking brake.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
And you still insist to mkae it appear as a good and heroic endeavour.
It seems not only Chinese citizens are completely idiotic when it comes to judge their own governments actions.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
And somehow that makes the US system better.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
"While it easy to find examples of harm in there, there is more good then harm in the case of American foreign policy."
Well, lets have a quick look over your post then...
Examples of American foreign policy failures: 1 (Iraq)
Examples of American foreign policy successes: 0
Hmmmm.
I think I understand where you're coming from. Even though everything is made in China it's still different to buy something from a Chinese owned corporation. I have a T40 from just before the switch. It's 4 yrs old and still amazing. But heck I'm not gonna buy a Lenovo again. I worked in IT at my university and the T60s broke all the time. I would go for a Toshiba, Sony, Acer, or Apple. Good luck. It's so sad when one has to replace their baby.
ThinkPads were always made in China, you know. :)
Anyway, I replaced mine with a Mac. I wanted the ability to drive most printers, scanners, etc., without booting Windows. I had about one choice.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
Aye, mine was made in Scotland..... from girders
I thought my Thinkpad was a great laptop until I replaced it with a MacBook Pro. It is a far superior laptop and a much more enjoyable computing experience. It's fun! I run Windows XP and Ubuntu Linux as virtual machines in Parallels. Windows application, especially Photoshop Elements, seem to run much better in the Windows XP Virtual Machine than it did on my old 2 GHz Thinkpad. Good luck.
And somehow that makes the US system better
The US system is better. People wrote that Putin was a murderer for Chechnya. One by one, as all of them were squeezed out of business, assasinated, or other otherwise silenced. You may not agree with the invasion, but, at least you can criticize it and even take action to a point, to undermine the US military effort there. In most other countries, you could be assasinated as a traitor for even coming out against a war that nation is fighting, wheras in America, all you have is people calling you names but with really no other consequence to you. I'd say that's a freer system.
This is my sig.
American beer is the worst in the world and I'd prefer to drink cat's piss.
Test why your argument fails. Let modding commence.
.
you realize, your logic is the same as "I can't bear to buy American because the American government invaded Iraq".
expandfairuse.org
Holy smokes. "Lenovo" as a Chinese company... that doesn't even mean anything anymore. It'd be like declaring McDonalds as an American company. It sounds nice, but it just ain't true. All multi-nat companies are now GLOBAL companies. They have money and workers all over the world. Intel is migrating more and more design and manufacturing work to India and China. Does that mean you'll gladly go buy Intel products just because the company is still traded on the NY stock exchange?
Anyhow, the ThinkPad is still entirely the same product as it was in years past. The ThinkPad design team is still in Japan. The factory is still in China. The management and planning teams are still in the US. What's different is that the HQ is no longer in NY (it's in NC), and the company is traded on the Hong Kong exchange instead of as a part of IBM. Basically the ONLY thing is totally Chinese about Lenovo is the Consumer business, and the hand-held business. But for now, those products are only sold in China.
So if you buy a ThinkPad you're supporting the exact same engineers who designed the products 10 years ago. And the profit that is earned goes to pay their salaries, and to re-invest in the development budget for those same engineers to design the next generation of ThinkPads.
Um, what's the consensus? I'm still using my "Made in Mexico" T23 and I need a replacement. . . . Lenovo and anything "assembled in China" is not an option. I'm realist and I do my best to void things made or assembled in China. Some interior parts may be made in China, but that's something I will have to live with. What can I buy these days with SXGA or better screen and a trackpoint that runs Linux? BTW, ASUS is great in that quite a few of them are still being made in Taiwan but none of them have trackpoints. Regardless of whatever crap the Chinese government wants to say about Taiwan, unless they can fly their five star flag over Taiwan and install a puppet government like Hong Kong, Taiwan is still a democratic country and is NOT a part of China. C'mon people. USA is not exactly the model democracy under GW Bush, but is is still a long way to becoming a single party government where people can't vote, can't voice their oppositions, government regulates reincarnation, and government banned the voting part of American Idol because it may give its audience the wrong ideas. . . . I'm a registered Republican, but I want to see GW Bush impeached and I never thought I will miss President Clinton. . . enough politics. . . What's the consensus on non-assembled in China, non-Lenovo Thinkpad replacement?
The first line of the text you linked to reads, "The neutrality and factual accuracy of this section are disputed."
:)
Um, no it doesn't.
The IBM/Lenovo deal was just a ploy to offload some debt to another company and get better access to Chinese markets. For the most part, Lenovo bigshots are same IBMers that were there before.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK