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Uncle Robin's Advice for Lovelorn Geeks
Don't Waste Your Time on Geek Girls
Here you are, an obsessed coder and all that, spending 2/3 of your waking time online and clicking on Slashdot five times a day. Wouldn't it be nice if you could find a woman who shares your interests?
No!
A woman just like you wouldn't be there for you when you wanted a hug. She'd be obsessively coding or posting on Slashdot herself, and would brush you off when you needed her. What you really want is a woman who will be there for you when you get tired of staring at your monitor and need some loving, but will leave you alone and not demand your attention when you're busy. You don't want a Geek Girl. You want a woman who is willing and able to meet a geek's needs, which is not the same thing at all.
Men involved in activities that demand long periods of intense concentration (programmers, artists, writers, musicians, etc.) need women who will respect what they do and help them do it well, not women who compete with them.
We need what are now called "old fashioned girls" who don't mind cooking our meals, rubbing our sore shoulders, and running our bath water for us. There are plenty of these women out there. They're as eager to find you as you are to find them. The trick is sorting through the 6 billion people on this planet to find the woman who is right for you instead of wasting your time on women with whom you cannot possibly build a long-term, mutually beneficial relationship.
Forget the Girls in Playboy
The silicone-enhanced babes you see posing in skin mags and on porn Web sites aren't interested in you. Neither are the blondies you see hanging on football players' arms, and even if one of them suddenly decides you'd be a nice change after the other men she's had in her life, you'll probably be disappointed with her.
I've gone out with more than a few "hot babes" in my time (I wasn't always married) and I generally found them to be more trouble than they were worth. Women who look great aren't necessarily good in bed, and those who have learned how to use their looks as a tool to manipulate men will almost always make your life miserable in the long run. If nothing else, they're expensive. Do you have any idea how much someone like Pamela Anderson spends on clothes, makeup, and cosmetic surgery every year? Trust me: it's more than you can afford unless you're a rock star or the CEO of Oracle (Hi, Larry!), and even then it's more than she's probably worth.
When you take off their clothes and their makeup, many "hot" women are really rather plain. The trick is to find a woman who doesn't spend a lot of time and money cuting herself up, but is pleasant to hold once all the packaging is removed. She'll be more likely to want some cuddling than the vain ones, and, unlike them, will concentrate on loving you instead of worrying about getting her hair messed up.
Practical hint: ever notice how, at a dance or in a bar, 90% of the men try to glom on to 10% of the women? Be smarter than those guys! Pay attention to the women who look nice but unspectacular and are being ignored because they aren't perfectly dressed or made up. The best software usually doesn't come in the fanciest box, right? The same goes for girls.
It's Okay to be Tongue-Tied
Don't worry about other men being "smooth talkers" while you're not. Many, possibly most, of your male ancestors were even less verbal than you, but they still managed to reproduce. (See your mirror for evidence.) Women don't always choose men based on slick opening lines. Indeed, many women tend to be put off by prepared "seduction" speeches, and prefer an honest, if slightly tongue-tied, guy to one who who comes across as having practiced pickup lines for hours on end.
And your clothes don't make all that much difference to women as long as they're appropriate for the time and place. Be clean and neat. That's all you need.
A woman who is only interested in your designer outfits is not only likely to be too shallow for you, but may also be interested in seeing you only in your fancy clothes, not out of them. This is not the right woman for you!
There's More to Life Than Computing
The biggest mistake I see computer-obsessed men make when getting to know women is to talk about nothing but computer stuff all the time. My wife uses her computer all day long as a working tool, but neither knows nor cares what kind of NIC (a 3Com) or how much RAM (64 MB) it has inside. If I want to discuss PC hardware I do it with male friends, not with my wife.
The best way to handle a conversation with a woman, especially one you've just met, is to find out what interests her. Ask her questions! Not whether she likes to be tied to the bed with ribbons and have her tummy tongue-tickled (at least not on a first date) but about her hopes and dreams in life, favorite TV shows, and other general interest things like that. Work and school are usually safe conversational starting points.
You've heard this before, but body language is more important than your words. So look at the girl! I mean her eyes, not her breasts. Don't cross your arms and legs as though you're trying to protect yourself from her. If you want to touch her arm, and she's close, go ahead. Maybe she'll touch you back. If your touch wasn't overly intrusive, returning it will be a natural, almost instinctive, reaction on her part.
You're a little shy and awkward? No big deal. She may be just as shy as you are. Don't push her. If she finds you at all attractive, she'll find subtle ways to be close to you without making it look as if she's being pushy.
And if the girl finds you unattractive, she'll let you know that, too (so you can dump her before you get too serious). Paying attention is the key to picking up the signals either way. If you're having trouble understanding the lady's vibes, ask questions! All females come with HOWTOs. Verbal ones. Ask them questions like, "Does this feel good?" and they'll answer. They also like honest compliments, so if you touch the back of her hand and it makes you feel all warm inside, go ahead and say, "Touching the back of your hand makes me feel all warm inside."
That's certainly a lot classier than, "You got nice boobs," which is a statement virtually guaranteed to put off almost any woman who isn't selling her body for drug money.
In other words, you don't have to be slick with women, but being stupid or crude with them gets you nowhere. (Unless you like stupid, crude women.)
Teenagers Take Heart: It Gets Better
All teenage boys are idiots when it comes to girls. And teenage girls are idiots when it comes to boys. The girls who laugh at you in high school laugh because they're nervous and, if you're exceptionally bright, posibly because they're a little bit scared of you. Sooner or later those same girls will get over their stupid crushes on Ricky Martin (in my time it was Ringo Starr), and other unreachable figures, and decide to look seriously at guys like you. This change generally comes between the ages of 18 and 25. Meanwhile, you may have matured a bit yourself by then, so that when the ditzy girls of today turn into tomorrow's adult women, you will no longer look or act like the dork they thought you were in high school
One warning: be gracious, not obnoxious, to girls you find ugly at the age of 15 or 16. There was a girl named Jessica who had a slight crush on me in high school for some unkown reason. She had horrible acne, bad posture, braces, ugly glasses, and wore tacky, faded dresses. She was also a straight-A student -- and slightly arrogant about it. I was not nice to this girl. Hardly anyone was -- except a very ordinary, slightly geeky guy named Mike.
At 18, Jessica suddenly changed. It was like a movie makeover. She got new glasses and the braces came off. She got a better wardrobe, her acne cleared up, and she stopped being stuck-up about her academic achievements. And she grew ... breasts. She took longer than most to develop in the chest department, but the results were worth waiting for. You know the rest of the story. It was Mike all the way. I'd blown my chance by being a jerk. I still have a flat spot on my forehead from banging it against the wall over Jessica.
Women Are More Complicated than Computers
I think this is why so many guys hide their heads in their monitors instead of going out and meeting women. Understanding women is harder than figuring out the hardest computer game, harder even than setting up a secure 200-client network running *BSD. But women can offer more satisfaction than even an overclocked, dual-Celeron workstation, so learning how to deal with them is worth the extra effort.
I believe the greatest frustration about women for men who are used to dealing with Open Source software is that you cannot fix flaws you find in them. You pretty much have no choice but to take them the way they are. For example, my wife likes to redecorate frequently, which sometimes annoys me, but I've learned to shrug my shoulders and call this part of her personality a feature, not a bug, and to accept it with the same good grace with which I accept a certain respected coworker's unique approach to the English language.
But I take pride in the fact that I am just as much of a mystery to my wife as she is to me, and that she can't change my source code any more than I can change hers.
Perhaps this is the true secret of finding a woman to love: knowing that there is no such thing as a perfect female, but that a woman worth loving is worth loving in spite of her imperfections, just as you are worth loving in spite of your imperfections -- to at least one woman in this world, who is probably sitting alone right now, wishing she could find a fine, brilliant (if slightly shy) man like you to fill that big, empty spot in her life.
I agree. My wife couldn't send an e-mail when I met here. Completly different ends of the spectrum. To top that off I'm Canadian and she's Salvadorian. :) We are still learning off of each other.
hahaha. thats why i read this string, the inevitable homo joke.
;)
but really now, if i could only reach, you can bet i would be doing what you suggest, with no change to my heterosexual status.
and no, i wouldn't swallow.
so go jump off a bridge you bigot prude.
I'm from Canada and I'm scared of bigotspam.
-AC
I respect that. He knows well he'll be flamed but he's just saying what's on his mind and many others. I respect his authoritah!
Here is wisdom, Grasshopper: To find the perfect girl, stop looking. Concentrate on living "in the moment", and be open to all possibilities.
maybe just a man page...
As just one example, the synapses of the female brain are organized in a tetrahedonal shape, those of the male in a cubic shape. Since information is stored in the magnetically curved space between the synapses, and so, relative to the worldly influences around them, a women's brain will tend to operate on a shorter wavelength than a man's, and faster. Look at the skull size as a starting point for the difference. The larger brain size of the male stretches out the synapses, producing a different magnetic organization of the spaces between synapses, and this slows things down for men. This faster shorter capacity of the female structure is a problem too, in that, their brains are picking up a terrible load of annoying useless noise too. A good woman knows she needs the slower, less noise prone, and more concentrated, imbalanced (that is longer horizon perspective) brains of men, to clear the synatpic air for them, magnetically as it were.
The male brain needs more time to concentrate, and the natural inclination of this longer slower wavelength is on beyond-the-horizon invisible-type things. But this greater concentration wavelength generates higher impulse, a male power of truly distant focus, than the female brain. On the same side of the coin, it's a damn fool of a man who ignores the utterly superior information gathering ability of his female counterpart, and her natural synaptic structure and its natural informational wavelengths. While she needs you to love her, by which means you magnetically blow away all the useless crap out of her brain structure every now and then, giving her brain a refreshed starting point from which to start, so too the male needs her superior "eyes and ears," sometimes called social inclinations, to collect necessary worldly information for you, while you concentrate on the next horizon, or whatever your project is. Trust me, if you are focused on and can see that distant horizon, she needs you and will support you, not because she is some inferior support system, but because she needs that distant perspective which can only be achieved by the synaptic structure and wonderful timing lags and focus of the male brain.
That's just one point of difference, on the synaptic structure and curvature of the synaptic spaces, resulting in different natural operating tendencies of their brains.
Are there any other anthropologists from Mars out there. Beep beep beep.
The other thing is that, if geek girls are so awful because they like to spend a lot of time doing certain things, geek guys can't be any better and the right advice would be "perhaps you should become a more balanced human being so that you will be more pleasant to be around", instead of "try to pass yourself off as this great genius composer/artist/inventor dude (which, by all avergaes, you're not) and find yourself a happy doormat who can tell herself she's got a great brilliant catch. They're out there, honest!"
If you would like to hear what this female geek is looking for in a guy, here it goes. In a geek guy, I am looking for intelligence, as well as the ability to appreciate intelligent women (otherwise I don't qualify. :-)) I am interested in people who like thinking. People who enjoy generating ideas and sharing them with me. Another quality that is equally important to me is the guy's ability to accept and like introverted women. Being strongly introverted, I noticed that, for a woman, that's a major drawback when it comes to dating. It's worse than lack of good looks. Apparently the prevalent stereotype still dictates that women should be outgoing, sociable, talkative and "bubbly" -- even the geek guys adhere to those stereotypes when choosing dating partners. My ideal geek guy would be able to challenge this misconception by accepting and appreciating a quiet, introverted, introspective woman -- that would be a sign of a nonconformist mind that attracts me so much. Alas, I am not the kind of "ideal" woman that roblimo described. Perhaps it explains why I had so little luck in relationships. He seems to be against women who actually enjoy programming -- but I enjoy it quite a bit. Maybe I am naive in my thinking that working on "pet" programming projects could be a perfect way to spend a "quiet evening at home" with a significant other.
But my ample chested silicon bimbo just loves it when I ram a cheese grater up her pulsating anus. Come on guys, there is not magic solution. This is like asking: How do I use a computer to do N? and expecting a single simple answer. A little tip though, if you are looking for a relationship that lasts decades, you should probably base it on something other then sex.
So how does one meet the perfect girl? Not everyone likes to go barhopping, either guys or gals. And not everyone is still in college, either. What's the secret?
I'm in love with, and live with a geek girl. It's great. We take care of each other. We can talk about our work with each other. I don't want someone who is looking after me like I was a helpless loser and she was a brainless servant.
Coming from a female, bigotry and discrimination is generally VERY looked down upon by all females.
You fucking hypocrite, you can take this PC propaganda and stick it up your ass. So are you suggesting that slashdot should just go around and say "hey, we need a gay editor! oh! we need a black editor too, and we need an editor that has hair-loss problems, oh and we need an asian editor!" its not your fucking website, if you dont like it dont fucking read it. Why is it that there is a tv channel called "Black Entertainment Television", but if there were to be one called "White Entertainment Television" it would be slammed with a lawsuit so quick it woulnd't even be funny.
Invent time travel
Travel into the future to see who you end up with.
Go back to your time, destroy the machine, and pursue your ideal woman.
I mean, how hard can that be? It worked for me - now using Marriage 4.0 (grin)
Great, now everyone is going to start bitching about her not being open source ... =)
Yeah - WAIT.
:-)
You don't NEED to date yet. Seriously. Not being rude, it's just the truth. Just be friends with them and wait until you're old enough to drive.
I'm 25 and have never dated anyone. And I'm reasonably happy!
That *was* real advice. You don't have to wait till you're 25. But you don't have to focus on that yet. You have LOTS of time!
Sure, I'd love it if the Right One(tm) came along. But until then I'm making the most of life as it is.
*sigh* Roblimo and so many others here seem to be after love to see what they can *get* out of it, not what they can give back to it. Here is the key to real love:
*AHEM*
If I speak in the tounges of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging symbol. If I have the gift of prophesy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and have a faith that can move a mountain, I am nothing. If I give all I posess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love NEVER fails.
So... is *your* relationship like that???
Right on. It should start with friendship in any case. I *would* advise to not get serious until at least 16-18 though. At your ages, get to be good friends. You don't need to worry about SOs yet!
I've had my share of chickening out of good opportunities, that's for sure. I'm not recommending that. All I'm doing is saying that 14 year olds shouldn't be looking for a wife! Clear enough? :-)
Yeah, word to that.
As a woman, I find this article incredibly patronizing both to me and to the men that this article is aimed at. I mean, do most of you guys REALLY need to read these things? Are you all so clueless that you need *Slashdot*, of all places, to teach you how to pick up women? Come ON!
As for the inane comments on geek chicks, in whose ranks I consider myself to be, I have this comment: Any self respecting person, geek, female, male or otherwise, that has nothing to talk about but his or her primary work interest is a pretty lame person to hang out with. But you perhaps may find that it's nice to be able to talk to your SO about details of your work/school that someone that does not share those interests would be bored by. Trust me, geek women can be there for you just as much as non-geek women can. Don't buy into these stupid generalizations unless you want women buying into stupid generalizations about geek guys. And let's keep slashdot from turning into a version of Cosmo for geeks.
- Robin
Drop an email to intp-request@ciredata.com with "subscribe" (sans quotes) in the subject line.
rodent...
rodent...
Tactical nuclear weapons are a viable alternative!
"I think perhaps it depends on your definition of geek. Personally, I define it as "Someone who values intelligence above all physical qualities."
"So, basically, smart people. Am I being too broad?"
I'd say so. A geek also has a tendency to not quite fit in socially. That doesn't mean that geeks can't be social at all, but that it's not as natural for them or that it doesn't come as easily, especially if one is talking about being social with normal people, as opposed to those about on one's own wavelength.
I just asked my partner what she thought of me and clicked that one.
The worrying part is that her first suggestion was "who cares I'm gay!"
Silver
I applaud this article, however, There is a danger in having a girlfriend who knows next to nothing about computers: they don't understand why you need to spend so much time behind the monitor. They feel a little alienated and somehow as if the computer deserves more attention than them. The author says that you should look for a woman that is willing to accept that you spend these long periods of time, but I can tell you that those are far and few in between.
Enh. I disagree. My current girlfriend is a philosophy major currently working on her masters on her way to a PhD, and she knows next to nothing about computers. Her only email address is @hotmail.com, for chrissakes. :) But she does understand that I do things like read slashdot and news, IRC, and write code on a pretty regular basis, and she has no problem just walking up behind me and saying "okay, now pay attention to me." in exactly those words.
The important thing here is to take that seriously.... :)
Don't get me wrong. Some of his ideas make sense! Not ignoring the "popular" girls is good advice. But here's where Robin goes wrong (and right):
Other than that, I think Robin hit a lot of good points. I think, probably, it could have been said better, but that's easy for me to say. I didn't write a feature.
It's worth trying. Disclaimer: I'm one of those X's myself, for that matter :-)
"My opinions are my own, and I've got *lots* of them!"
If there is one thing I hate, it's stereotypes. This article is FULL of them (and full of it, might I add). Now he might have a good suggestion or two in there, but please PLEASE don't waste your time by hanging on every word he says. This world has an incredible amount of variety, and you should NEVER associate a face (or a body) with a personality. I've met beautiful women who were the sweetest creatures. I've also met the *ugliest* women who had the worst personalities imaginable! I have also met (heaven forbid!) beautiful, sweet geek girls. There is no right or wrong, black or white. Women are like us, they come in all shapes and sizes. They might think differently, but in the end they usually want someone they can relate to.
I'd like to comment on Roblimo's high school 'friend,' Jessica. She's a freak of nature. She was ugly, a tad arrogant but she matured and became beautiful. Would she have matured if guys had been all over her? Probably not. If others like you, there is no reason for change. She probably realized that she wasn't projecting the image she wanted, and decided to change. Apparently, she was very successful. But why look back and say, "Well gee, I should've been nice to her?" That's hypocrisy! You shouldn't be nice to a girl in the hopes that she'll become a goddess, those are simply the wrong reasons. If you really don't like a girl, then in my opinion you won't ever respect her. If she changes for the better, and matures greatly, then good for her, but leave it at that. If you're really open-minded, talk to her, try to see if she's really changed that much. For the record, this is true for anyone, not just used-to-be-ugly-and-annoying women. If you think the girl isn't particularly pretty but she's got a nice personality, then you should talk to her. If she likes you but you're not interested, tell her so (try to be gentle about it). This is incredibly harder than it sounds, I for one am really bad at letting down women. Does that make my comment obsolete? Not at all! It's not because I'm not good at something that I don't know how it's supposed to be done. I get better every time, practice helps (I don't have much of it, however).
Now, I know it's been said over and over, everywhere and by everyone... Be yourself. There is no secret. Some of us are born with the ability to attract women, others aren't so lucky (at least 75% of men). And for the rest of us, there is no point in pretending to be someone we're not. Don't follow someone else's footseps, you're cheating yourself. Listen to advice, but try to make up your own mind... Not everyone is right, it is a harsh truth that I learned the hard way. If a girl doesn't respect you for who you are, no matter how beautiful she is, don't waste your time on her. Find someone who can appreciate you as much as you appreciate her.
While we're at it, here's a bit of advice from someone who regrets this every day he wakes up: NEVER hesitate to ask. It doesn't matter how pretty she is, it doesn't matter how "out of your league" you think she is. If she shows some form of interest (really friendly, maybe a hug sometimes, smiles at you) and you like her, ask her. It might be devastating to be rejected, but you'll get over it. You can NEVER (believe me) get over doing nothing at all. Look at Ben Stiller in "There's Something About Mary"... the guy is 30 and he can't get over it. Of course, no one wants to hear about his sob story so I won't tell mine either :p
I hope this helps some of you confused geeks out there a little bit.Like others on this forum... I have to second that... or third... sixteenth? :-)
:-)
My wife is not one to "cater" to me... In fact, one of her favourite slogans is, "What, do I have maid written across my forehead?!" What she does do is take care of me, and that sometimes makes me feel like she's catering to me when all she is really doing is what she considers her part in the "family thing."
We have great arguements, which is one of the best things in any relationship I think... Neither of us are weak-minded but we're learning the art of the compromise where appropriate. And as far as pulling me away from the chair... Um... well.. she kinda climbs on top of me ON the chair. I'm glad I didn't get one of those cheap chairs!
It makes me feel a little weird sometimes, to be taken care of, but I wouldn't want anyone else...
Windows looks good on the outside, but try a long term relationship with it, and you're left feeling empty. Linux on the other hand is rich, complex, and you'll never stop learning about it. It's plain and functional on the inside, but you can still dress it up -- and at least for you, make it look better than windows ever could.
The comparison fits for closed vs open source software. For the long term, you need communication, the ability to understand, and you need to keep learning.
Dumb yourself down, run Windows.
I really like the idea of a woman to cook, clean, rub my shoulders and everything else. Being a geek in a three year relationship (and at a point in our lives where we are planning longer term together), I would like to be the first to say that expectations for a woman need to be zero. Nothing. You can't expect a single thing. That way you will work for a good relationship and show extreme gratitude whenever she does anything for you. The biggest thing is to find a girl who will be your best friend. Above everything, that is what counts.
What kind of sexist dominance fantasy is this? I can only hope that's you're exaggerating to make a humorous point. I hope you don't expect such unquestioning self-abdication from your real-life wife; if you do, I feel very sorry for her.
For my part, I will continue to choose women with real spirit, women who will treat me as an equal in a relationship and expect the same, and who have the intellectual caliber to do so, if not as coders then as chemists or teachers or artists or lawyers. Maybe it's because I grew up in the 80s and 90s, but I have no desire for the kind of 50s sitcom life you describe. I want a soulmate, not a nursemaid. I have had the great pleasure of finding several such women, though for various reasons things didn't work out in the end--so I know this is not a pipe dream. These strong, smart women exist--het geek guys, don't settle for less!
Beer recipe: free! #Source
Cold pints: $2 #Product
I think my biggest problem is that I don't realize poeple like to have me around. It came as a shock to me when i realized that chicks thought i was a sexy bitch, but i guess over the years of being alone with myself and my computer, I've turned into something the girls might like.
The point i'm trying to make is:
Do want you want to do, it doesn't matter what others think.
I've had friends that have picked up some hot chicks, just by doing what rob explained. The secret is treating them like any other person but still giving them respect.
I'm sorry if it seems like i jumped from topic to topic, my mind is multi-threaded, but the comment box is not.
My
Yes, we wouldn't want to put anything "real world" in YOUR precious Slashdot. News Flash: Roblimo can post to /. and you can't. He's more a part of it than you, so put up or shut up. It's refreshing to see something on here other than Lego and Perl (not that those aren't good too).
-G
I have problems understanding why this was placed in the funny category. It wasn't very funny, nor did it feel like it was written in jest.
On the other hand, if it was meant to be taken seriously, I think there are some problems with Robin's conceptions. In particular, I react to his "Don't waste your time on geek girls" stance. Now, it might be that he's, well, um, a bit older (and thus more old-fashioned), but I don't think (or hope) that the "I need a woman that fulfills my needs, not one that competes with me" attitude is common amongst hackers and techies.
There is a beauty in having a life partner who's your intellectual and emotional equal. Now, that doesn't have to mean computer geek, but someone smart, who has an area of he or she loves working in, a thirst for more knowledge, etc. 20 years ago, a partner who would massage your shoulders and cook you dinner might be the ideal. But now? Give me someone who's smarter than me any day.
--Joakim Ziegler
Much truth and wisdom in Roblimo's words.
----------------
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein
Co-founder and designer at Music Nearby: http://musicnearby.com
Though they'd have to be careful about choosing an animal for the cover...
(I mean, it's gotta work one day.)
Regards, Ralph.
Like calling and getting a SIGHUP? :)
The only consistent signal I have found, is that if I am in their home, and they don't protest at that, then they like me.
SIGBUS? SIGSEGV? :)
That is all.
--Pete
The Obligatory ExGirlFriend Page
"The lie, Mr. Mulder, is most convincingly hidden between two truths."
--
And Justice for None
I got news for ya. In the long run, we're ALL ugly. In 10 years, 20 years, 30 years YOU will be the ugly one.
I view age differently. With age, breasts just become longer, penises grow larger. There's nothing wrong with "sexy grandmas" or grandfathers, yet Hollywood does not give us many role models for the older folks. Think Tina Turner and Clint Eastwood. They are up there in age.
Wrinkles come from exposure to the sun and are multiplied by smoking. Nothing wrong with older women and men, except for those who do not take care of their health.
Not everyone turns fat and ugly in old age. Some are still physicaly fit and like to fuck. Don't let age discourage, let it bring wisdom and happiness.
Well said, man.
-bjl
I would add to this- there are girls out there who want someone geeky like us. I'm a case in point- when I first met my fiance, I agreed (though very reluctantly) to go with her and her two female friends to a goth dance club. At the time I had no idea how to dance. But I decided to hell with shyness and to hell with being alone. I went, determined to have a good time. Like I mentioned, one of the girls is now my fiance, but she also told me that her two friends also had their eyes on me. Yes, I'm bragging, but letting loose of your inhibitions and just having fun being yourself is a HUGE draw to a lot of girls. It's worked for me every time. Keep in mind that girls are far less VISUAL than guys. This means that many times just because you don't look like Ricky "I'm so fake I'm plastic" Martin doesn't mean you aren't interesting. Women are much more interested in finding the person beneath the exterior.
Joke or not- a lot of truths are spoken in jest. He said a lot that would have made a big difference in my life 5 years ago.
I've said this before, but I believe it completely:
"Geek" isn't a label that should be exclusive to computers.
My wife is a surgeon, and I'd definitely say she's a medical geek. I hack C++; she hacks biology.
With this in mind, I have to disagree with ya, Roblimo. We get along famously. I understand when she's in her zone doing research, and she doesn't bug me about late-night coding runs.
She is everything you've listed as "desirable", but she's 100% certifiably as geeky as I am, and I understand her, and she understands me. Life is sweet.
Another nice benefit to our relationship: I now fully know and believe that geeks are geeks, no matter what field they choose. Being really, passionately into something is cool and attractive to someone else as in-love with their own separate field.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
You know, if you'd just assume that that attractive woman that's batting her eyes at you and snuggling up to you under the huge dome at the Palace of Fine Arts (with that nice, romantic music playing in the background...and that beautiful sunset over the lake) is actually flirting, you'd probably get a date in no time.
No, I'm not kidding. This happened to me.
I'd scoot closer to him on the bench, he'd scoot away to give me more room. I rested my head against his shoulder, he shifted positions uncomfortably, so I moved my head.
After that evening, I was pretty sure he wasn't interested in me "in that way". So, two years, and an emotionally draining relationship with a different guy later, I find out that he was actually interested! He just wasn't sure how I felt, so he didn't do/say anything. When I had put my head on his shoulder, and he shifted, he was actually moving a little so he could raise his arm to put it around me. When I moved my head, he backed off. AAARGH!
Anyway, we've been going out for a little less than a year, and it's probably the most emotionally healty relationship either of us has ever been in.
So, if there's a girl who you'd kinda like to go out with, ASK HER!!! Save her from emotionally nasty relationships with other guys that she might get into. You're doing HER a favor!!!
--- Phyre
Most girls who appear "stuck up" are actually quite shy. As far as fulfilling physical desires vs finding the semi-perfect girl, find the semi-perfect girl and establish a good relationship with her. You will probably be pleasantly surprised. Most women are not overly impressed with a guys list of exploits. The would rather think that you think they are special.
My $0.02 worth.
Anfo
And what, precisely, is Rob's wife supposed to think of a comment like that?
For all the soul-wracked wringing of hands shown in this thread, I'm yet to see one of the politically-correct complainers show the slightest bit of sensitivity towards Rob's position or the decisions of his wife, someone who is (no doubt) just as intelligent, caring and wonderful as anyone else in the human race.
What are you people thinking when you make stupid, asinine accusations like that? Have you totally missed the points Rob talked about in his article? What makes you think you can complain about Rob's political correctness while at the same time denigrating his wife as a fucking prostitute .
Ferchrissakes, get a life. There is truth and meaning beyond political-correctness. It is normal to refuse to strike up a relationship with someone who doesn't meet your needs, and it's normal for those needs to include a pleasing aesthetic and a mutual desire to serve each other. Criticizing Rob for putting his thoughts about these TRUTHS just shows that you're too busy being politically-correct to acknowledge your own humanity.
-----
-----
I tried an internal modem, but it hurt when I walked.
Anyone who doesn't go looking for someone else who can live up to their own wants, needs or desires is doomed. Like someone else in these comments said, breasts aren't the be-all-and-end-all of women, but if they turn you on you'd be a complete fool to "choose" a woman who didn't have them. A relationship should be mutually rewarding, which means you should get your own needs satisfied when you go into it; you should keep a little bit of yourself in a relationship, and maintain the expectation that while you're satisfying your partner's needs she's satisfying yours too.
A lot of people, men and women, should do this.
In the past social pressures have pushed people together and made them stick together whether they love and respect each other or not (my grandparents are a prime example; They couldn't stand each other, and stopped loving each other 30 years ago, but their religion and their social conditioning eliminated divorce as a reasonable way to "solve" that problem -- As a result they've both had an utterly miserable old-age, something I wouldn't wish on anybody).
All kinds of things are worthy of respect, and the precise subset of things you respect might be different from mine or Rob's -- That isn't a bad thing. You might be turned on by fireside chats, Rob may be turned on by breasts, I might be turned on by someone who looks good in a bikini... But what's probably more likely is that we're all turned on by fireside chats with someone who has great tits and looks good in a bikini
Finally, Rob must have known with reasonable certainty that he'd get flamed royally for daring to speak about some of these things, but he went ahead with it anyway. I respect him for that, and I think there should be more of it: We should be able to be honest in public instead of ducking away from very important truths simply because we know some people with a political axe to grind won't like it. Your original comment about how Katz would be proud a forum like slashdot exists is no doubt true, but I suspect the comments of some of the readers following the article would detract somewhat from the gloss. One of the great losses our society has suffered throughout the 90's is that people have become afraid to talk about what they really think, because there are so many little groups who make a professional point of attacking opinions; My hope for the next decade is that the Internet can help us get back to reality by providing forums for people to be honest about what they think about homosexual Mozambiquian llamas without having to put up with public denigration and hate-crime lawsuits from "The Peoples' Front In Support of Reinforcement of the Sexual Self-Determination of Mozambiquian Llamas".
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-----
I tried an internal modem, but it hurt when I walked.
Stangely enough, it didn't feel that way to me. I say strangely because it's amazing that something that can be headlined as "Married Man Sets Geeks Straight About Girls" could possibly be anything but patronising to geeks. Instead, it felt like well-meant, sincere, fatherly advice. Thanks, Robin.
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
Speaking as a geek myself, I'd have to say that I didn't want a geek as a partner. When I've had a long day fighting with compilers and smitty and HP-UX and stupid users, the last thing I want is to have my partner at home griping about the same damn thing. I want her griping about something completely separate from what I do. It makes it easier for me to leave the office at the office.
Vive la difference.
--
you should read everything on the internet as if it had "but I'm probably talking out of my ass" appended to it.
As the Official Spokesperson for the Silent Majority, I just want to say that the article was Brilliant, Insightful and True on all counts.
Well done!
-kent
**>>BELCH
Indeed, you cannot "make" anyone like you and I agree completely that it is all about getting to know people.
However, if you are a miserable, ugly, cantankerous old git like me, you just have to accept that your chances of meeting a woman who'll be more than "just friends" (as if that should be belittled) are pretty negligable.
However, when you're feeling lonely, at least you will know that you have lots of dependable friends there for you, who's judgement is not tainted by physical attraction.
It's wonderful to have these friends! They are truly what make life worth living!
;->
I'm out of my tree just now but please feel free to leave a banana.
I refuse to read this article on principle. This is Slashdot, not Seventeen. I don't see how this falls under Rob's quasi-journalistic creed of "News for Nerds. Stuff that matters." The fact that anyone is actually reading this could only be hurting your chances. Be yourself, act natural, unplug for a little while (all the nerds I know are pathetically stressed,) and see what you come up with. If you're taking your Palm Pilot out on dates with a list of do's and don'ts built in, then, my friend, there's your problem. It's ironic, probably the best thing you could do for your love life is just read less Slashdot. Not read articles on Slashdot about it.
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
When in doubt, just type: man woman
LINUX stands for: Linux Inux Nux Ux X
FRA: STFU GTFO
Bullshit. Since I've made sex (one of my) goal(s) I feel much better. If you don't, you always fall in LJBFland -- where LJBF = Let's Just Be Friends. That sucks, you feel bad, and repeat after me: WOMEN WANT SEX JUST AS MUCH AS MEN DO, just not with anybody (unlike men).
You've heard this before, but body language is more important than your words.
Along these lines, a friend of mine swears that imitating a girls body language is a subconcious way of flirting (she won't even know its happening). Make it subtle though, not a game of simon says.
One other thing...I wasn't around then, but I've been a huge Beatles fan since around 3rd grade, and always thought Paul was the cute one. Well not me personally but that's who the girls like the most, isn't it?
I'm in total agreement with Sumana: sure, I'm offended that he thinks geek girls aren't worth pursuing. Roblimo grants that geek guys have moments when they 'want some loving' when they /aren't/ staring at their monitors. How come geek /girls/ can't want cuddle-time when they're away from their monitors as well? Secondly, it's a heck of a lot nicer when your significant other understands why the heck you're so interested in computers n' stuff. It doesn't have to be the only thing you discuss (Roblimo was right there) but there's something to be said for having like passions. And i'm not talking sex here.
Other than that, his advice is pretty good. Pay attention to what she *says,* her body language...look her in the eye. Sure, body is nice, but it's not everything. Pay her honest compliments... and maybe you'll find someone to share serious time with, more than/instead of some empty "let's get laid" thing, which is probably only a temporary fix anyway.
Best of luck to the nice, sweet, i-do-more-than-talk-about-my-computers geek guys out there. Be yourself. If you fake who you are, you'll be unhappy with what you end up with anyway.
--Anneke
--Anneke
"Real Women Use Linux"
Gray's Geek Rule-O-Love
If you find someone, don't write about it.
No one is an expert, or really even has a clue about relationships, but most of us figure it out in the end.. Relax, do whatever you feel like, it'll work out.. Don't over think things.. Appearance counts, how much is up to you..
And now do be critical.
The article was terribly written and totally offensive.. Slashdot would be wise to stay away from this junk IMO.. Lets stick to what we know..
What's next, roblimos fashion tips? No thanks..
I can just see the next 'shashdot as new media outlit' article..
"Self described nerds, with articles on topics from Bewolf to How to Get A Girlfriend."
Everyone knows computer skills are inversely propotional to mating skills, right?
Amen brother. I have to say that I have found someone who is completely fantastic, and I envision myself staying with them forever. But I live right in the heart of suburbia and the types of families that I see every day just sickens me. It seems as if most people get married just because they think it's what they should do. Then when they have kids, their life becomes miserable. They then proceed to make their kids' lives miserable by yelling at them constantly. If they didn't want to deal with children, they shouldn't have had them in the first place! The family who lives across the street from me fits this description exactly. They never should have gotten married, and they absolutely *never* should have had children.
On the other hand, I know people who are incredibly happily married, and who have children that they love and cherish. They would rather spend their time playing with their children than working late at the office. These people got married and had children for the right reasons.
My point is, if you get married and have kids, you damn well better be sure that it's for the right reasons, not because "that's what you're supposed to do." There is absolutely nothing wrong with never getting married, and living the life of a bachelor(ette) forever. I think most people would even be happier that way. If I hadn't found my current girlfriend (of 5 years now), I would have no problem at all being single forever.
Amen to that brother. I can't count how many women treated me like shit when I was nice to them, however anytime I show no interest in a women or display any type of moody behavior (basically everything women say they hate) I get laid on a regular basis.
I really enjoyed reading this. It was very amusing.
Normally, statements suggesting 'geeks spend too much time on computers' are offensive, but here it wasn't.
And I would have to say that most of it is correct. My current girlfriend is a geek -- straight A's in the advanced courses, really 'straight edge', yadda yadda yadda. Although, she isn't very good with computers, which is a good thing as it gives us breathing space (but I still try and teach her OO programming techniques every now and then).
One piece of advice I would like to add: Find a lady that looks good without makeup on and you will never be dissapointed. Where can you meet girls without makeup on? Go and do althletic stuff. Not that athletic? Go play ultimate (frisbee, for those who don't know) as there are more forgiving people willing to teach and wait for your growing pains than any other sport. Not to mention 'naked points' -- the number one "try before you buy".
:)
-- DrZaius - Minister of Sciences and Protector of the Faith
Is this really "News for Nerds" - even thought this piece is quite humorous, it is so well written and thought that I suspect Roblimo is at least half-serious. Do we really need this? Are we SO desperate? And why should everybody get a woman (or a man) anyway? Some people are perfectly comfortable with Linux kernel source and a compiler and like to be alone with them :) This really belongs somewhere else...
I was a loner and bitter toward most everyone all of the time. I did go out every now and then, but it was just to get my kicks from people I thought were idiots and get out aggressions at the same time. I was also gutless when it came to talking to anyone I found interesting (this was the same throughout all of high school).
When I met Beata (whom I now live with and love very much), I did something I hadn't done before: I looked into her eyes and just talked with her. And I listened. Long story made short, we fell in love and have been together for a little over 2 years. Needless to say, I am very happy with life, even being only 25.
All of what was said in the above article is true. You have to talk and listen. These are by far the most important. You also have to call her/him back when you are interested. They won't know if you don't. And for crying out loud, look into their eyes. They really are the window to the soul. (Don't forget to mention that their eyes look good, if you find them attractive =)
Oh yes, and don't follow the above as a formula. People are not formulaic, so why take that approach?
Geoff Wozniak
gzw@home.com
My Good friend has met a girl, who DOES love computers and DOES care what kind of NIC(Also 3com) and how much RAM (128 Meg) is in her computer. Not only that, but she is VERY HOT.
You know why? because not all people deeply involved with computers have social problems, OR even call themselves Geeks.
It may come as a bit of a shock, to the self obsessed linux crowd out there, (you know, the ones that think they are doing me a favor by using linux, and have it in their heads that being the biggest geek is cool), but just because i program and i love using FreeBSD, it dosnt mean i consider myself a nerd.. I still have many friends and go out and socialize every night i get.
> Geek girls are incapable of being loving and considerate, and unloving and inconsiderate geek guys have to avoid that.
I think you're right to call Rob on this generalization, but at the same time I think he's right to suggest that the Geek Girl of your Dreams may not exist. There's no need to say that this is only true for inconsiderate geek guys - the fact is that there are more computer geek guys than girls, so if you are only willing to go out with geek girls, you're seriously damaging your odds. I don't see any need to read this statement with the subtext you've given it.
> The ideal woman is one who selflessly meets your every needs.
Obviously this is an unattainable standard, and I doubt Rob's SO actually qualifies. However, I think that for a relationship to work, both people need to selflessly serve each other, and since everybody's needs are different, it's entirely possible that you may find someone like this. OTOH, you may be better off trying to meet her halfway. And, again, I think you've read a subtext into Rob's message that he didn't intend.
> The proper role for the woman is that of handservant, who considers running your bathwater to be part of a "mutually beneficial" relationship.
There is no proper role for a woman or man. The only quality that you could assign to such a role is that the woman or man in question should be happy in it, and the roles we are happy in are all different. And again, this is not the way I read Rob's intentions.
> One way to evaluate a woman is to take off her clothes and makeup.
Well, but it is, isn't it? You may not think that it's a fair way to evaluate a woman, but it's a way. If the woman of your dreams doesn't enjoy seeing you naked, she's not going to try, and the same is true for you. It's tremendously unfortunate that human beings can't just meet mind-to-mind, but it's true. The good news is that one person's yuck is another's yum.
> In bars, the females that are unattainable are called "women" while the ones that you are supposed to go after are called "girls".
This is pretty tired, don't you think?
> If a woman finds you unattractive, dump her as quickly as possible.
As opposed to what? If she doesn't find you attractive, what are you supposed to do, get cosmetic surgery? I think this is good advice.
> Grown breasts are worth waiting for.
What, they're not? Is it not valid for a guy to find breasts attractive? This is silly, in both senses - it's silly to be down on guys for liking breasts, and it's also silly to wait for them to grow. Further, it's not the point. The point is: be nice to people. Don't assume that because you find someone unattractive now, it's okay to treat them badly. I think this is good advice.
> Be nice to geeky looking girls, just in case they grow up and look good.
How about, "be nice to everybody, because it feels good, and maybe you'll get some benefit from it as well?"
> In spite of all of the above, imperfections are to be overlooked.
Given that nobody we know is perfect, I think you have to say that this is true. Either that, or you need to embark on a program of changing your world into a place where there are only perfect people, which is not really what Rob's trying to help you do here.
> All women are looking for a man to fill the empty void in their lives.
I think Rob pretty clearly didn't say this. He said "some are, and some aren't, and you shouldn't be looking for the ones who aren't, because you won't get anywhere with them." And indeed, women who are looking for you to "fill a void in their lives" are probably going to make you miserable. But there are women who know what they want, include "having a man who pleases me" as one of the things they want, are willing to go out and find such a man, and will be pleased when they do. Why is this a problem?
> If you're not having any success, find someone like Roblimo, considers himself an expert at picking up chix and is ready to dispense a handful of advice because he has a pleasant and apparently subservient wife who meets his needs.
It seems to me that Rob was giving some advice in a brotherly way that he intended to be of help. While his advice does reflect his own values, with which you apparently don't agree, it was nonetheless well-intentioned, and I think if you read it with that in mind it can also be helpful. So why beat him up about it? I don't get it!
Exactly. I'd been reading the comments waiting for someone else to mention this.
You'd be surprised at how well you can do with women if you are simply confident and honest(as opposed to egotistical and bluntly crass, however.)
Ever notice that when it rains it pours? You get together with a woman, or perhaps you are seeing someone... suddenly, there are more women available(even if they don't know you are dating someone else...) Why is this? Because your confidence level has gone up. You also tend to speak to other women as PEOPLE when you aren't aggressively on the hunt. Learn to do that all the time. Realise that they are individuals such as yourself who like conversation, someone to spend time with, and to get laid now and then. If you want a woman just for sex, don't put on a show or try to con her into thinking you are interested in a long term relationship.. treat her with respect; just as you don't want a woman to fool you, she's not going to take that very well either._______________________________________________
--
driph
--
.-.--
Marissa,
You're extremely attractive for a geek chick. I'm proud to have women like you in such a wonderful society!
--
.-.--
.. oh what a spanking awaits thee...
Tehehehe..
--
I couldn't have said it better myself...
-Stradivarius
Or maybe i and o are right next to each other on a qwerty-style keyboard and my finger slipped? :) Sometimes the simplest explanation is the best one.
--
Usually when I date someone, I like to learn more about what they like. It shows interest in them, and I know I liked it when someone I dated actually installed linux and started to run it. :)
I just have to say that, from experience, I find the basic thrust of his posting to be true. I can not say that I agree with all of the implied generalizations about women/SOs in general, but the approach is correct.
How do I know this? We've been married over 5 years now, and just adopted a baby daughter. No, we're not perfect. The relationship is not perfect, but that's perfectly fine, because we're both happy.
Everyone: you could do a lot worse than following the advise Roblimo offered.
Just my 2 cents.
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
very nice. I posted a top 10 list of dangerous ideas (it's in response to Roblimo's message, which has been conveniently been moderated up, so it should be easy to find) which is something like this (although a lot longer)
also, thank you for using the "correct" (read: non-offensive) definition of the word "feminist". it's amazing how many people misinterpret it, including my sister. "I don't hate men, so I'm not a feminist". social progress in action!
Lea
I've had the same problem. ordinarily, it's not a problem at all, but when the guy you're semi-dating says "I think of you as a guy" you've really got to wonder if you need to start wearing tighter shirts or something.
:) (especially since I've got my own geekguy -- and I only need one, thank you very much)
actually, most guys I know now seem to realize instantly that I'm female and STILL be able to hold an intellegent conversation with me without drooling! that's the happy medium I've been going for
on a side note, a lot of guyfriends pointed out this article and made offended noises to me. so it's not just dem women who are getting mad...
Lea
... I'm surprised that women have not yet been criticised for not being open source.
Believe with me, my saplings.
You said exactly what I wanted to say, but your wording is far better than I could have done without sounding like a Troll.
The point is, this article is advice. (And damn Good advice, in my opinion.) To Tony: Whether you choose to take it and use it is your decision. But for God's sake, don't criticize someone for offering help. The way you twisted Roblimo's words to suit your point is just wrong.
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
We'd all like to be able to fantasize about having a supermodel for a girlfriend, but let's be realistic. The "Pretty 'n Popular" crowd is usually a very shallow and uncommiting group.
Personally, I'm into someone who, while not obnoxious, is individual and is not afraid to voice her own opinion. I don't want somenoe who:
A) Agrees with everything I say.
or
B) Disputes everything I say.
Neither of those types of people will work out. Each situation will end up driving you both crazy. Sure, you'll disagree on some things, but the reason you're going out in the first place is probably because you found you each have something in common. For that to happen, there has to be an amount of agreement. Disagreement is essential as well. (Do you REALLY want someone who just says yes to everything you say?) Intelligent debate goes right down the drain. Constant agreement would drive me insane.
I have to disagree on the Computer part though. She doesn't have to be a guru, but SOME knowledge would definitely be a plus. (Although my fantasy is to have a woman who would come up behind me while I'm programming and give me a shoulder massage, while at the same time, offering suggestions or corrections in my code.)
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
And the very last thing you can say to a woman you're trying to seduce, is what you really want: to get her in your bed. I think of culture as the commonly accepted answers to these contradictions. Culture seems to be a set of standardised lies that you are expected to apply in well-defined situations.
Maybe I am just rationalizing my own introversion/prudishness/shyness but this inherent dishonesty in our culture is one of the primary reasons I can't even approach a girl.
It seems too dishonest to me to say, 'Want to see a movie with me?' but it also seems too forward or rude to say, 'Will you spend some time with me so that we can find out if we are perfect for each other?'
--
Talking about "relationship" movies, "When Harry met Sally" and "Frankie and Johnny" are also good movies of that sort.
The relationship has to have a certain snap to it, I find intelligence to be an important factor. I'm not talking about the genious type-150-IQ, but that she understand what you mean without you having to explain. (And such...)
To quote Sean in "Good Will Hunting":
onMushy(){
"She is not perfect. You are not perfect.
The question is whether or not you are perfect for each other."
}
-
Jesus saves - Gretzky gets the rebound and scores!
Thank you for an encouraging post. Before Slashdot, I assumed I was too unlike anyone else to be any woman's "type". After becoming a regular, I quickly realized how many are JUST LIKE ME.
But I still doubted that my own "type" of woman existed... until now. I agree with you entirely about introverts' troubles with meeting one another, especially when they want to meet other introverts. Which I do, btw.
I still kinda suspect you are a rarity in that you like to program. I took up programming (after 6 years away) for the express purpose of draining off the excess sex drive. Now I've been wondering what will happen to my career if I find Ms Right.
Oh, and since this thread seems to be developing into a Slashdot dating service (yay!!), let me point out that a couple of turnoffs are people who own dogs (not that I dislike dogs, just wouldn't want to live with one) and attachment to one's automobile. (I prefer not to own a car, living in the city.) (Cambridge, Mass. to be precise.)
You have to be good at it.
I'm sorry. What I meant to say was 'please excuse me.'
what came out of my mouth was 'Move or I'll kill you!'
Let me just note:
I honestly do not want to get done with writing a really groovy perl script, or finish a sweet game of Resident Evil (bored with Quake now), and then go to my bloke for loving, and he's in there playing starcraft.
None of that.
Think about it... if it's OK for you to get obsessed for hours with your interests, it has to be OK for your partner to get obsessed for hours with their interests. It doesn't matter whether its coding, writing poetry, practising music, doing mathematics, butterfly collecting or motorcycle mechanics. Fair is fair.
No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up.
A cheap mail-order outfit from Sweden wrote:
"Roblimo's public statement that I as a geek should be looking for a woman who is most likely to want to do my bidding is insulting to me."
Only because you're stupidly PC. *Everybody* should be looking for that, not just "you as a geek". OK, not looking for someone "who is most likely to want to do my bidding" as in, "I want a slave" -- but then, only stupidly PC people read Roblimo that way. Read it this way in stead: Given a choice between two otherwise identical women, one of which *would* voluntarily (that's what he said, not "do my bidding") draw you a hot bath when you come home tired, the other wouldn't, what on Earth is better about the latter?!? That she demonstrates a PC sense of "independence" by being an uncaring asshole is *preferable* to you...?
"And while he is in his right in insulting me,"
He wouldn't only be "in his right" in insulting you (if that had beeen what he did, which it wasn't), he'd be *right* in insulting you. Stupidly PC wusses deserve nothing but scorn.
"he will then have to stand for my insulting, equal public, reply that I consider such a relationship nothing more than emotions for sale."
He *might* have to, if it weren't so obviously a moronic "Good day -- axe handles!" type of response. As it is, no he doesn't. You owe him, and above all his wife, a big fat apology.
"obviously it is unfortunate if his wife (who is no-doubt a nice person) should read this and be upset. But he dragged her into this public discussion, not I."
Bullshit, asshole. *He* said he loves her and she's a wonderful person; *you* called her a whore. And now you call that *his* fault? How f*cking Swedish can you get?
Christian R. Conrad
MY opinions, not my employer's - Hedengren, Finland.
Christian R. Conrad
mail me at iki.fi ; same user ID as here
Um, not entirely true.
The important thing is that they are willing to learn, not that they know it. My wife asks a ton of questions about what I do and why I am doing it, and has become quite good at decrypting "geek speak". She does call the computer the "other woman" and the "Beige Bitch" at times, but always with a smile and a sigh.
She's also taught me more than I ever thought I'd know about finance and accounting -- and I actually found it interesting. If the learning is two way, the relationship might make it. We are all changing all the time, so every day I rediscover what a wonderful person I married.
I could just be rude and say, "Well, what do you EXPECT from trailer trash?" (According to the author's bio, he lives in a trailer)
:)
:) I'm sure Rick would acknowledge that I'm a better coder, but I defer to his superior network-fu!
But I won't.
Regardless of whether or not it was an attempt to be serious or humorous, what this guy doesn't know about women would fill volumes. He thinks he has a clue about their motivations, but he doesn't. He may not even understand his wife's motivations. Logic suggests that if most spouses were aware of their spouse's motivations and acted accordingly, the divorce rate would be signficantly lower.
I think this wasn't just a lame attempt at humor, but the real views of the author. While the idea of "relate to a real" woman is a good point, most male geeks I know do NOT spend time in clubs the way the author did. Most of them have geek jobs in pre-IPO companies and work hard and long hours. As geek companies tend to be overwhelmingly male, the chances of socializing with women is limited.
As the author's socialization seemed to revolve around the kind of places where extroverts hang out, and as most geeks are not extroverts, I'm reminded of a rule of mine:
Deirdre's Rule of Relationships:
Extroverts bond ionically;
Introverts bond covalently
By which I mean that introverts tend to have fewer, but deeper, relationships with specific people. For extroverts, they're more interested in having certain roles filled and the bonds are shallower. I think the differences in socialization between introverts and extroverts is different enough that it's caused us introverts lots of grief:
"You care too much" - yeah, introverts DO. So? It's a feature, not a bug.
"Geez, it was just a date" - if they ask you out, 80% chance they're already 1/2way in love.
"I feel closed in" - introverts seem to want a more complete experience than extroverts do.
But if any guy *I* dated wrote a piece like this, it would be all over in a heartbeat. This doesn't mean that he couldn't write something, but geez. Then again, any guy I date (like my SO, Rick Moen) would not only be a geek and be proud to be a geek, but also be secure enough in his masculinity to date a geek woman who knew more than he did in some area.
PS - Besides, Pamela Anderson wouldn't visit a guy in a trailer. Anymore.
_Deirdre
I also replied via email, but my general rule of thumb is: go for it, learn more. You don't have to commit to marriage yet. :) Silly introverts always wanting to put the cart before the horse. :) (see my post about Deirdre's Law of Relationships)
I should also say that, when I was married five months, my husband suddenly died of a stroke. You never know how long you have with someone; make what time you have count.
I don't see what you're so worried about; you could get run over by a bus before her next attack. I'm not trying to be a pessimist, just pointing out that you're focused worrying about her (which is sweet) but not even considering that you might not make it that long.
_Deirdre
I'm reminded of the line from Tom Lehrer (about his friend Hen3ry): "He was always giving helpful advice to people who were happier than he was."
Oh, and you're wrong about the lovelorn girl angle: http://www.chickmagnet.org
_Deirdre
So what is my advice? I say that you have to find out for yourself. You have to be in relationships with women that you believe are physically and emotionally appealing. You have to fuck up a relationship and make mistakes sometimes. You gotta find out if the geek woman, the ditz, the old fashioned woman, or whoever is right for you by yourself or you won't likely find the right wife or be a good husband.
After reading that last sentence, I just realized I was being a little hypocritical. I'm sure all the female Slashdotters out there would not want to be labelled as one of the categories I previously mentioned. So don't say you like a woman because she's old-fashioned, be specific with what traits you like.
Now I'll say what I like best in a relationship. I like it when I've had a bad day, I like when I have someone who will comfort me. I like to be able to rant to someone about what really pisses me off, and get some sincere sympathy. It's very cathartic. But even better is to do the same for your partner. It's very satisfying and makes me really happy to improve my partner's mood. (Am I being selfish by getting happiness in this? Should I be taking while giving at the same time?)
Furthermore, I don't think Roblimo says anything really new (at least to me) other than to avoid geek women altogether, which I disagree with anyway. It's sort of like saying that "Genie in a Bottle" tells the truth about relationships. Well, it does, but it doesn't say anything insightful or that I didn't already know!
I'm not participating in the corresponding poll because to say that women are a mystery would be saying that all women are mysterious in the same way.
That's it, we need to make "slashdate.org" now folks. I mean it's the natural extention to slashdot! I get everything I need techie news wise from here - why not dates?!
Come now guys I'm sure such a system wouldn't take more then a weekend to code up and link in :)
--
James Michael Keller
"Linux is not our destination, it is simply the open road to tommorow"
What's unfortunate tho, is that a lot of engineering types really /do/ go for June Lockheart rather than any other type of girl.
Personally, I'd probably get bored married to the female version of myself. One of the reasons to have someone else around is to share a complementary perspective on life.
On the other hand, if i was married to someone who was completely apathetic to all aspects of technology, I would probably go completely nuts obsessing over the fear that my wife is smiling and nodding entirely for my own benefit, and dying of boredom on the inside.
The vast majority of people in the world don't work in highly technical fields. An auto assembly line worker marrying another auto assembly line worker isn't so much an issue as it would be if the profession was more involved. There really isn't that much to the job, so the major interests are more than likely well outside of their field of employment.
But in studied careers, be they technology related, literary, artistic, legal, whathaveyou, there is the possibility of a feeling of competition between two people who are otherwise partners. I've seen this in action, and it's not a pretty sight.
I would by no means rule out girls who are just as big a geek as i am. Nor would i rule out girls who's interests are elsewhere. And i say "girl" meaning "female who is significantly younger than my mother".
So, yeah, I'd have to agree that it's bad advice, but "Uncle Robin" is just trying to chop up a larger personality issue into smaller pieces so that it's easier to handle.
Or maybe he just sees that there are millions of geek guys longing after the hundreds of thousands of geek girls when their ideal mate may or may not be one of them.
Sometimes you can exclude entire groups. I don't think I'll be marrying any racists or smokers. I've kissed a girl who smokes camels, and man, tho i love the girl and liked her a whole lot at the time, sheesh, yuck. Kissing my dirty socks would taste better. We parted for unrelated reasons, but when you start talking about "forever", issues that don't make a big difference when you're dating start to be a bigger deal.
But it's foolish to try and focus in on a particular group. What you can do, if you get serious about getting hitched, is try to weed out the individuals who have traits that are obviously going to cause friction down the road. And that's where the greater personality issues come into play.
Too many people these days get married foolishly, why else would we have such a high divorce rate? Try to save the world a little heartache, find someone who is as happy being with you as you are being with them.
This is just like television, only you can see much further.
I always thought it was "Women! Can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em..."
(Ducking before my fiance hits me...)
I don't find the idea of childlessness to be immature and selfish. I do find it to be stagnating and a concession to death I would rather not make. I wish the human race to grow, flourish and move off the planet. I wish to make the universe green with life. I want to see if Teilhard (sp? Omega Point guy) was right. Not reproducing is a recipe for stagnation, and eventual death.
I know I'm not going to change your mind, but I hope to make you more understanding of those of us who find your choice to be an anathema.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
Point taken. I think we can both agree that the best way to give advice is to not make generalizations, because although generalizations are many times on the mark, they don't work all the time, and if taken as gospel truth can lead to mistakes.
Oh and by the way I always use the term "girls" to avoid the whole girls/women thing...
Ok, so the idea here is to find a woman that has no consuming interests of her own, like computers, because she'll have less time to spend taking care of her guy? Because she won't "brush you off" when reading slasdot like you apparently would? Women to take over basic responsibilities like cooking food and running our bathwater? A woman who believes your work is so important and vital to humanity that she'll wait on you hand and foot? Of course, for actual intelligent conversation(about computing, of course), we'll have to go to our male friends, who can comprehend such matters.
There's nothing wrong with geek girls. My girlfriend isn't a hardcore geek, but she knows more about vi than I do, prefers unix to any other OS, and is a reasonably respected geoscientist. I don't have to leave the house to talk about technology, and she doesn't have to leave to talk about science.
How about this. Treat a woman as another human being, not just a complement to yourself, or a vibrator and kitchen appliance. Women have their own interests, needs, and need to have their own shoulders rubbed and food cooked for them sometimes. And their work is just as important as your own. I'm sure you can find a woman who will let you treat her as a second-class human being, but that's not going to lead to a fulfilling relationship.
-lx
Who, might I ask, are geek girls supposed to find a date with? :) The same logic goes for geek guys, too, of course, keeping an eye out for artist women. (Of course, if you think all art is worthless spouting of personal views in different mediums then this advice should not apply to you. OTOH, if you have something against worthless spouting of personal views, why are you reading slashdot? :))
Ummm. I'd take a cue from Helen: Sweetheart of the Internet and go after the artistic type. Okay, so Spenser and Helen have their problems, but I still think it's a great idea! Artists and Geeks complement each other wonderfully... if they don't kill each other.
--Parity
'Card carrying' member of the EFF.
Hehe, all said, I missed the forest for the trees
My eye for delicate parody can sometimes only reach as far as my own humor:)
Cheers,
.3jane[ltk]
As a counterexample,
I am a momma's boy (living in a different city), pseudo-geeky, can cook Italian and French quite well, live with two roommates, wear alot of unusual designer clothes, am not unusually ego-maniacal, work the web in its various machinations, do not want to sleep with all my female friends, do go to bars - but usually for a drink after work rather than the possibility of picking up some floosy, am relatively confident and outgoing, and genuinely enjoy working with people that I can learn from.
So there :)
I don't mean to sound reactionary (I'm sure I do), but this post is riddled with the same preconceptions and forceful empiricisim that it is ment to counteract.
I am just a little miffed that I have just been told that some surface traits I may have reflect negatively on my character.
Thank you,
.3jane[ltk]
(yes, I am male)
I've been having a little girl trouble lately, and I've been sorta down about it for the last few days, but that article put a huge smile on my face. Thank you Roblimo!
--
sharkyfour.com
At last an explanation!
Cliff Palmer, Jr.
-Julius X
remove "-whatkindofspamdoyoutakemefor-" from email to send
When you get right down to it, that is the reason I have been "between girlfriends" (and not in the "sandwich" sense ;-) for quite some time.
I don't have a problem with the chicks once I learn their names, but I almost never meet them. (Also, I never meet guys either. All my friends are "old" friends from school days.) Nor am I willing to do what it takes to change that. Fuck "being normal" because I already have my own way of being. I'm not gonna start going to bars, or asking out waitresses (or anyone else where there's a vendor/customer relationship), and I learned a long time ago to keep outta co-workers' pants, especially the married ones. ;-)
When a chick falls into my lap due to strange circumstance, we'll make the best of things. That's slow going, but it's still better than selling out. I just don't understand guys who whine about not having a girlfriend. If you really want one, and you're willing to do what it takes, it's not that hard. It's just a question of values and priorities -- what you want out of life. Cater to a biologically pre-programmed agenda, or your own? In my case, if after I've taken over the planet, if I haven't snagged a chick yet, then maybe I'll go girl-hunting. :-)
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
I've gotta agree. I got through 3 years of high school with no real desire to have a girlfriend, until this summer. I started hanging out with a girl who I'd always considered a friend, but we had never been real close. After we started hanging out, I fell deeply in love with her, and its been so great for the last 3 months, I can' imagine being apart from her.
I do agree with Roblimos points about not trying to find a geek girl. It doesn't work. I used to think how cool it would be to have a girlfriend who knew linux and perl and all that cool stuff, but I realized that the point of a relationship is not to find somebody just like you, but to instead find someone who can open up your mind to new things.
> Geek girls are incapable of being loving and considerate, and unloving and inconsiderate geek guys have to avoid
that.
I don't think that is the point Roblimo is trying to make. THe point is, do we really want to date someone just like ourselves? What is there to share, aside from coding tips and geek info? I've tried it, and they don't work out too well. One of the greatest things about dating someone who has different interests than yourself (and I don't mean a guy from IS and a girl from software development) is sharing that. One of the greatest things about a relationship, in my opinion, is learning from a girlfriend things I wouldn't have learnt otherwise, discussing our views on the world (I've gotten a bit philosophical because of it, and examined the world in ways I never would have before), and teaching her things she didn't know before. A relationship dies the day you stop sharing like that.
Notice the vindictive, angry, tirades coming from some female readers. Again and again, I see this self-righteousness surface anytime a man dares to frankly discuss women with fellow men. It reminds me of the male insecurities that come to the surface when said males are confronted with feminist venting. Oh, and I do feel that women do have a lot of legitimate grievances by the way, but being pissed that we judge you just as mercilessly and arbitrarily as you judge us is not one of them.
remember that bars aren't the only place to meet women. i take dance lessons and find it a great place to meet women. if you do the beginners lessons women _expect_ you to be a lousy dance partner, so no experiance is necessary.
it's also great for fitness (and heaps more fun than weights or the gym).
That isn't a secret!
I agree with some of the points in this article. One of the things I value about my relationship with my wife is that we have different interests. While she is interested in technology, she's not obsessed with it like I am sometimes. This is good, because she keeps me from getting too wrapped up in computers and such and pulls me back into the real world. She also encourages me to pursue other interests, such as the arts and outdoor activities, which are enjoyable activities that help us grow as a couple. I don't find that kind of fulfillment in a computer. On the other hand, I have to disagree with the concept that she should wait on me hand and foot, waiting patiently until I'm ready to pay attention to her. We share household tasks (cooking, cleaning, etc.) equally, and I wouldn't want it any other way. I want a lifetime companion, not a maid. While she may not always fully understand my excitement over that new laptop, she is happy for me, and wants to share in the excitement. But there are times when it's good to just leave the computer alone and do something fun (go to a play, go hiking, etc.) together, and those are the times that make me truly happy.
Well don't know about anyone else, but i'm looking for a reasonably intelligent woman, one who doesn't have to ask me what i'm talking about every two minutes, and i don't mean computers, just general conversation, and have an average appearance, otherwise doesn't require a paper bag accessory when going out. Of course, the understanding about priorities is also important, school has to come first.
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I learned a couple of things from your article. For instance, typically my first attempts to touch a woman usually involve some exchange of saliva (either uni- or bi-directional). While it can do the trick to get some nookie, I'm sitting here alone in this big house right now. (laughs) A touch on the arm seems a slightly less accelerated and wiser approach.
1. Hang out in #aftery2k for hours at a time 2. hit on Nitrozac all night 3. Tell all the geek guys about your exploits with women as a cabdriver 3. Tell everyone you're not here to brag about chicks, you're here to help everyone get laid.
Had more than a few chuckles, and what's funniest is that it's pretty much all true :)
I agree with you to some extent that this is patronizing. There are many of us who, though possessing enough technical knowledge to be considered a 'geek,' have enough social skill to get along in any setting.
However, there are many, many /.'ers that need all the help they can get. I think that the author did a good job of just being friendly and helpful to these folks.
I think that was a "Groo".
--Corey
Not only will they not deserve liberty or safety, Mr. Franklin, they will be DENIED both!
You gotta feel for the wife of a gynecologist, especially one in need of a little nookie.
"I swear, if I see one more of those..."
--Corey
Not only will they not deserve liberty or safety, Mr. Franklin, they will be DENIED both!
I am lucky to have a girl that loves me no matter what....
After being together for three years, good times and bad times, losing common interests and finally regaining them, and going through the turbulent teenage years (we were 16 and 15 when we met), I still have a wonderful girl that supports me but gives me my space.
She's stuck with me when I was a punk rock kid moving from house to house because my parents couldn't/wouldn't support me after getting off the streets, she's stuck with me through the beginning of my career and she's even suffered through my crazy times when all I could do was take out the stress of playing out of my league at work (somehow, being young AND having large reposnsibilities makes you a target at work sometimes) on the people I love the most.
She's learned to respect my space with work and side projects. I've learned how not to become so aloof and how to be closer to her and others.
Most importantly, we have things we work on together, completely unrelated to what we do at work/what we're going to school for.
All I've ever had to do with her is just be myself. That's part of what the author was saying.... just be yourself! And the person who is right for you will find you. You will find each other. When you look so hard, you tend to overlook those people.
It's extremely beautiful. We laugh together, we cry together, we share with others together, we dance together... we stare at the stars together and dream common dreams.
I know this is mushy and stuph, but I am extremely happy I'm still with this girl. I know I'll get some skeptics, but we've already weathered the "you two are too different" and the "you are just being young and foolish" comments. We've gone through our parents trying too keep us seperated.
I think there's someone for everybody. I know so, because the more deeply I love (not just her, but in my life) the more I see it happenng with others.
My aunt told me "Your eyes will meet, you look at each other, and you'll know it, conciously or subconciously". And there's nothing that can stop you fro finding each other than yourself.
You hit the nail right on the head, sir.
Always be true to one's self. Don't regret or be ashamed of who you are.
Well, not EXACTLY like us. That makes it fun. :-)
Step one, find someone of similar social status (and would make an appropriate partner based upon both participants sexual orientation) who is not interested in a relationship, but still interested in Mutually Beneficial Activities(tm). Participate in said Activities frequently (and safely, for the record) in the name of Learning (and Enjoyment).
This will help two things:
1. it lessens the level of frustration, and
2. it will break down your inhibitions about contact (emotional AND phsyical) with other people
Then you can move on to true (and much more socially acceptable) romantic relationships.
-Chris
Absolutely correct my friend. You have to look for a partner for life - a worthy mate, not a nanny.
thank you matt.
i m a geek girl. and hopefully i shall find a nice geek guy. i dont mind rubbing his shoulders when he is tired after all day programming. but i expect him to rub my shoulders too when i get tired. but maybe its too much to ask?
I mean, the thing *IS* the kitchen sink after all...
I love this topic, since I've had so many conversations about it in the past with friends. I've had many relationships in my day of all kinds, long, short, good, bad, serious, superficial, etc. And the one I can tell you that is important in relationships is learning. Learning about yourself, and another person. So many people miss that because they're searching for lust and dependance (even if they don't know it).
Most of my friends cosider me "lucky", because I've had many relationships, and most of them (already in their mid 20's) haven't had one at all, and always "strike out". The fact is, like I always tell them, they are no different than me, except for the way they approach things.
You wanna get a girl? First, you have to not want to get a girl. I know, sounds dumb, but it's true. You're not going to have a decent relationship with someone, until you are happy with yourself and don't feel the "need" to be with someone. Why is that? Because otherwise, like it or not, you will try to hard, and ultimately set yourself up for failure. And even if you do succeed, you're going to want a lot more than the girl, and lopsided relationships go nowhere fast.
Once you have that down, you just want to be yourself. And that's easy if you're not really looking for things. It's funny how the best things always happen when you least expect them to, and if you're just being yourself and something manages to work itself out, you have someone who likes you for who YOU are and not what you want them to see you as being.
So what types of girls make the best girlfriends? They say opposites attract, but what they don't tell you is that a month into the thing they repel like mad. However, you do not want to date a computer nerd like yourself. In fact, you do not want to date someone who is as passionate as your are about most anything, rather, you want to date someone who thinks the things you are passionate about are interresting, yet isn't a bonafied geek about them. Why? Because otherwise it's very easy to get into a holier-than-thou attitude about who's right in any situation. Very bad for a relationship. The things you need to have in common are the things you both like to do that don't take up half your day. You also need someone who can open your eyes an who you can learn from. Find someone who can teach you things you've never realized (so probably not comptuers) to make you a better all around person. Find that and you have a match made in heaven. Don't think it's the women that are hard to figure out. People in general are hard to figure out if you look too far into things. Take your time, have fun, and it's easier than BASIC.
Looks aren't everything, in fact, they're usually most minor of things to look for. Personality, chemistry, friendship, trust, and the like are the things that really matter in relationships, and what make them last and make a person happy. Looks will only last until you get used to the person (a month) and see someone else who's hotter while in the mall. Obviously there should be some attraction, but it shouldn't be the driving force. If it is, or is a major part, you're doing it for the wrong reasons, and will be disappointed later. While a good sex life is important, a good friendship lasts forever.
I could go on forever, but this at least gives a good start. In essence, the more you are yourself, are comfortable with yourself and are willing to learn more about yourself and others, the better and more happy you'll be when you finally get someone. And for those of you who have been waiting for what seems like forever, just remember, the best things come to those who wait.
My girlfriend broke up with me a couple weeks ago. This article was exactly what I needed to hear. It is guy-talk at its finest. Based on my own experience, this article matches with reality pretty closely. The biggest mistake 'geek' guys make is not catching social signals. They either over- or under-interpret things.
Thank you for the cool article RobLimo! Although maybe it should have included the disclaimer, "FOR GUYS ONLY!" If women only knew what guys REALLY thought...
10. There's a good chance she does as much drugs as you do!
9. Who else is going to help you flesh out those object methods for free?
8. Double your sci-fi, fantasy, RPG, movie collection!
7. GeekGirls understand _why_ you must be in front of the computer for so long.
6. Two IT incomes to pay for new home hardware.
5. Geek Girls like self-refrence as much as you do (see number five)
4. You can know for sure that no one other that Geek Girls will understand you fully (not just put up with you)
3. Your friends will be impressed when they see her code!
2. She'll like being in touch via cell, ICQ, email, pager, webcam, ad infinitum
1. When she takes off her glasses, it's time for sex!
yes but you and he are not really contradicting;
you can find intelligent gutsy women who nonetheless are not career oriented;
my post to the main article notwithstanding, I dont think I want a woman who is that yielding, but then, I have not gone out with any yielding women yet.
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars --Oscar Wilde
Grrr. my nick is "Forward the Light Brigade"...
Well, while I wasn't making that point as I'll explain below, you just proved that some very moronic girls do in fact exist.
Note that such a think as sarcasm exists. This should've been obvious by the rest of the tone of my post and even more so once you read the "Seriously though" after it.
-Laktar, a.k.a. Nick Rosen, laktar.dyndns.org
If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord:
30. All bumbling conjurers, clumsy squires, no-talent bards, and cowardly
thieves in the land will be preemptively put to death. My foes will surely
give up and abandon their quest if they have no source of comic relief.
-- Peter's Evil Overlord List, http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
...the real problem is finding ANY girl! How does a young geek find a girl? They're out there, but they're staying out there and not going out w/ me. Finding geek girls is even harder. There are so few of them (I seriously disagree w/ the find a maid attitude. I want somebody I can respect and relate to. I don't want somebody who is a complete mystery to me even after marriage!).
Actually, that's an interesting little mystery which I think I'll address now. There are very few geek girls. Why? I think the problem (and it's a problem. I'd like a gf who could hold her own in Quake) is several fold. First, girls in America (and I think most places) are discouraged from being intelligent, tinkering around w/ computers, electronics, and mechanical things, etc.. That alone sends many potential geeks into normalcy and often makes them pretend to be ditzes to fit in better. I know I've seen that way too often. Then there's the whole issue that almost any girl could get a guy if she wanted. For every desperate girl there are at least 5 guys twice as desperate (me, John, Tristan, Justin, Randy, see?). That tends to follow the general incorporation of intelligent potential geek girls into normal society. And last, girls just aren't as intelligent as guys and don't have the same aptitude in general. Seriously though, the whole geek girl shortage is a serious problem. THat is all. Oh, & if you're a geek girl, about 17 or thereabouts, & live around Ambler, my e-mail address is laktar@hotmail.com
-Laktar, a.k.a. Nick Rosen, laktar.dyndns.org
If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord:
20. Despite its proven stress-relieving effect, I will not indulge in maniacal
laughter. When so occupied, it's too easy to miss unexpected developments that
a more attentive individual could adjust to accordingly.
-- Peter's Evil Overlord List, http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
>> or the theatre group (and don't just be a techie, TRY out for a part, for Pete's sake), or anything artsy.
> _This_ is the only good suggestion you've given. And although I know few geeks that have any acting talent whatsoever, I've known many artistic types with whom I've gotten along with very well indeed, and were even halfway geeky sorts.
Hmm, the last play I acted in, the lead worked for Applix. I'm a coder at AltaVista. One of my coworkers there is also a pro-quality ballet dancer. The list goes on and on...
When you're talking about college/community theatre or any other recreational (non-professional) form of the arts, you're actually very likely to find a high number of geeks. The type of talent and creativity it takes to be a good programmer often (though not necessarily) corresponds very closely to the type of talent it takes to be an artist or musician; dramatic acting is not a far way off.
Warning... beginning to philosophise here...
As for being able to successfully communicate with non-geeks, I've never found it to be a problem. Sure I've dealt with jocks who were jerks. But I've also dealt with geeks who were jerks, and had jocks as friends. I've even known people who could be considered both jocks and geeks simultaneously. And that doesn't even begin to address the other common cliques under which people are labeled (like artists, or motorheads, or hippies, or the appearance-obsessed, or whatever).
I'm too realistic to say that all cliques are a evil idea, and we should only have a single global community. Of course, it's nice to have a group of friends with whom you share at least one defining personality trait. My point is that it is very possible (and has always come naturally for me) for a single person to be a member of multiple communities or cliques. It keeps you balanced, and avoids the whole "us versus them" mentality that leads to incidents like Columbine.
I find the whole stereotyping that routinely goes on at Slashdot to be rather ridiculous. The percentage of socially inept techies I've met in my life is pretty much equal to the percentage of socially inept people who don't revel in computers. I'm fairly curious to see how many folks here actually believe they fit the unofficial Slashdot stereotype. I for one consider myself far more well-rounded, with extremely different views about women, etc. I still consider myself a member of the Slashdot community and continue to read the site because I enjoy its technical, literary, and occasionally its political aspects, but almost never its social commentary.
Hey CT, how about that for a poll?
-- Div.
But my grandest creation, as history will tell,
But my grandest creation, as history will tell,
Was Firefrorefiddle, the Fiend of the Fell.
The point he's making is that no one's opinion on who you should find is going to help. It's up to you to know who you're really looking for.
Why do I say this? The quote that comes to mind is "One man's trash is another man's treasure." Granted, this isn't the best way of saying it, but it means that no matter if you think someone is worthless or not attractive for whatever reason, someone else will think he or she is the right person.
This whole dating argument also might come from a bit of a self-esteem crisis that swings by once in a while. I'm a closet CS person (who's major is EE) and a gamer (not of Quake but of real, physical board games and roleplaying). It's real disappointing to be rejected by someone or be out of the social dating loop for a while, especially when it seems that everyone around you is scoring. Most of it stems from the fact that we (as a technically inclined gathering of people) are vastly misunderstood in the eyes of others. But to be misunderstood doesn't mean you are technically inclined either. It happens to all of us,no matter what our profession is.
I won't give advice other than two quotes that might help:
1. The immortal words of "DON'T PANIC" come to mind from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Everything works itself out eventually. Don't ask how, it just does.
2. As G. Ratte' and cDc said on Friday, "Save yourself, go outside, DO SOMETHING!" Just take a a night every week or two and go down to the bar (or coffee shop if you're under age) with a couple of people and be seen. I think /. needs to organize a "Geek's Night Out" (similar to the WSJ a while back with "Open That Bottle Night") where we just let the keyboard take a night off and tend to a social gathering of our choice.
Of course, in all of this, be reminded that I may still be missing the point on this article....
Thank God. I posted before I read your comment and I just have to say that you restore my faith in men (besides my husband).
Some parts of this article were insightful, but I didn't like the 50's bent on it. I am married to a geek husband and have naturally gravitated to intelligent and creative men all of my life. I have dated some really honey boys, but, believe me, they don't compare. I think that it is a myth that men need women to totally coddle them so they can succeed. Just think about how good you will feel about yourself, how independent you will be, if you can do everything for yourself (including laundry). Sure we all have our sick and weak moments when we just want our mommies. Don't forget that you have to love that girl in return and part of that is cuddling her and helping her out with her life goals, too. If not, it's not really love, it's, well, being selfish. And, believe me, women are turned off by that. Has anyone else noticed that people are longing for the old days when relationships were simpler (i.e. the 50s)? Well, a whole lot of housewives were alcoholics then, but that's beside the point. This is the 90's. I want to be known as a person, not as a servile object. I want to succeed and I want my husband to succeed and we can accomplish both. The world is changing, the rules are changing, and we are risk takers. Why can't we change the rules and forget about what makes us comfortable, and make ourselves great? Let's face it, it doesn't matter what you do to most women. It matters who you are, the passion you have for life, the caring you have for others, oh, and a little reading about tantric sex is good. It's funny what happens when you stop thinking about yourself - the world opens up.
First thing that I thought of when I read about women having a HOWTO was that RTFM will never be the same again...
I'm not going to post what I originally wanted to because I'm sure it's been posted a hundred times already, and I'm sure what I'm about to post has been posted a hundred times too.
/. Now I don't exactly understand where Roblimo came from (I'm assuming when andover took over /. he was added) which I can understand. But, I'm getting tired of some of Roblimo's posts. Normally, if I don't like a poster (i.e: john katz) I just exclude their posts. But with Roblimo, I cannot do this because he posts just about EVERYTHING. I hardly ever see CmdrTaco post anything and Hemos is still posting (thank God) but Roblimo has taken it upon himself to post anything and everything he comes across, whether it be /. worthy or not.
/.'ers can go see all of the stories that have been submitted but didn't quite make it to the main page (for whatever reason). All to often, what I would like to see on my /. is different from what Roblimo would like me to see. (For example, see the story i'm replying to.)
This could be considered flame bait, but hear me out. I'm not trying to flame Roblimo (although I am not incredibly fond of him), just giving my opinion.
Basically, I don't care to read Roblimo flatter himself about his awesome wife or how he has dated all kinds of "hot chicks" and his opinion of "geek girls." However, I understand that he posted it under Humor, and so I will overlook it and not flame him to bad.
But, I for one, am getting tired of seeing everything posted by Roblimo. I remember the good old days when Rob and Jeff posted just about everything themselves - back then I truly enjoyed
Consider this: What about the possibility of having a page where
Just a suggestion.
~Steve
--
"<r-xr-xr-x> Just try to edit me" -- www.ircnews.com
...predictable in their responses to a comedy wind up about 'how to get women'
but thats by-the-by... The sad part is that a lot of lonely men reading slashdot are...
... seriously taking notes from this article, probably on their palm pilots, with intent to put them into practice, probably more out of intrigue that something could be more satisfying than a dual celeron workstation than anything else.
Just chat with the people around you, including girls. Wherever you're at. Stores, supermarket, movies, bowling alley. Invite some of them to events you like. You'll find someone you like. And if they like you when you're being yourself then that's better than having them meet a different you at home.
Of course, the examples of looking for people in bars is fine if you're looking for someone who likes bars...unless bars are the socially agreed upon neutral place to go to find a mate.
Oh, yeah, my qualifications: Yup, I'm not a pretty sight. Apparently adequate enough somehow to been able to choose a beautiful lady for my wife. Now we have techno-talking kids.
I will wholeheartedly agree to this.
My past relationships w/ girls has shown me that the ones who use/appreciate computers, give me alot more time for my obsession. Girls I have dated in the past that didn't understand computers, usually got greatly disgruntled when I'd spend time blowing stuff up on it, or playing one more battle in Final Fantasy Tactics on PSX.
Now, admittedly, the circumstances of the relationships were different, the better/more accepting ones did come later when I was older/wiser.
Really though, I think this is something that has to be dealt with on a unique relationship basis, each one fitting into your life differently. Making it fit is very important.
http://www.somethingpositive.net Funny + bitter = comedy gold
More advice from older geeks to the younger on getting girls... Rob mostly focuses here on what to look for in women, and what not to look for. (Admittedly there is a small portion on being nice, and not trying to be something you are not...)
But perhaps a more appropriate article would be not what to look for in women (or men), but how to act. My broad generalization of the day is that Most geeks lack social skills.
For years, I literally hated people in general. Most were too dumb to understand me, and no one bothered to care. (This was partially teen agnst as well..) So I went through life having no friends, aside from the other few geeks who ate their lunch in the computer lab everyday. Eventually I discovered BBS's... (I will not rant on how great they were), but I slowly began learning how to talk to people, and at the BBS'er gatherings (socials), I actually had the chance to meet other local geeks in person. And there were female bbsers! My god (what god?) the world had changed... A group of social misfits that couldnt deal with the rest of the world, but were willing to put up with each other. I discovered the variety of geeks.... The standard dorkish type of course, but also the homeless couch surfing punk geeks, and the artists, and the goths....
So, woah.. im going off on a tangent. My point is, that I learned how to interact with people. I developed social skills, and realized that I didn't in fact hate everyone, I just didn't know how to deal with them.. basic things such as chit-chat, and asking questions to start conversations were just part of it.
Anyhow... so where/how to learn decent social skills? I'd tell you BBS's, but they're mostly gone.. (if you get nostalgic, look below and I'll give you the number of my old favorite, yeah its still around.) So as far as the lesson goes in this area.... I can't help to much.
So now assume that you've gained some social skills.. and you're a geek that can actually talk to people. (hehe.. big jump) Anyway.. so what can you do? You can start talking to girls or boys that you like, and continue with your life... but thats been discussed to death already... what I'd really like to talk about is the effects of being a geek of a different sub-faction... (now I really am going to go off on a tangent)
So now that I've had my time playing with social skills, I've gained a group of techie friends who're also artists, rivetheads and goths... (yeah i'm one of em). So now I have a chance to look at geeks from the outside. Occasionally I'll meet some nerdish looking geek and get to talking about some computer related material... It usually takes a bit of convincing on my part to make the other party realize that I know what I'm talking about. My appearance tends to set me apart from what might classify as a stereotypical geek... and I can see how geeks treat non-geeks for those few moments... Its a big awkward situation, even chatting...
So in effect, my social skills caused my interests to expand, caused me to ditch my blue jeans and sneakers for combat boots and a bull-ring in my nose.. but I'm still a geek! r0r.. So geeks should at least try to pick up enough social skills to be more able to locate others in their locale... and yeah.. as a side affect, you'll probably end up with a girlfriend, or boyfriend... maybe even both.
-harm
oh yeah... and I said I'd give the number for that bbs I used to live on.....
Henry's Hallucination
925-825-5864
925-827-5958
925-691-1486
Two things here. One, the colloquial definition of 'geek' doesn't only apply to computer geeks... there are a lot of other types out there (or maybe those are nerds), and this article tends, and apparently a lot of computer geeks tend to ignore that fact. The second thing is that I have spent a lot of time with non-geek women, and have found that I just don't enjoy spending time with them. Few of them have any sort of passion in their lives and seem to just be existing rather than actually caring about something interesting. She may be a drama geek or a chemical engineering geek, but in either case, they at least have some passion in their lives. That's what makes us all geeks at heart: the fact that we all love the stuff that we do. And I'm not looking for Cindy Crawford with an IQ of 180, but I am looking for a girl with similar intelligence as me who's willing to use it for something she loves. It's not a bad thing to look for a girl who's a geek. I can't imagine being able to share anything at all interesting to me to any girl who wasn't a geek. They're the only ones who listen and understand why I'm so excited about . Anyway... I think this article does offer a lot of good tips for how to actually get out and talk to a girl, though. Sometimes you gotta get out of the (lab)|(room)|(office) and go meet someone. If you don't meet someone who has a bit of geek in them, though, I'll bet you won't be happy, though.
Adam
Even if you missed the original article, you must be pretty dense not to recognise this thing as satire. This is in the humor section. H-u-m-o-r. Think about it.
It's good to see people finally getting this sort of thing right. I didn't for most of high school, but now that I'm in college, I've got the best girlfriend I could concievably have. For the first time in my life it wasn't another case of me pestering a girl until she dated me, but instead... This girl, this woman was attracted to me from the very start. I must admit that I little noticed her in the beginning, but eventually, I began realising what a wonderful person this shy little girl was. Even then, I could never have guessed how passionate this shy girl can be.
What can I say? I'm in love.
I'm one of those teenage-types, and a true geek/nerd/whatever. I have had absolutely *no* luck with women, so any advice is welcomed with open arms. I guess I've been doing everything wrong. But the question is, I suppose, is this really true? I guess only time will tell.
Oh, and you're wrong about the lovelorn girl angle: http://www.chickmagnet.org
I dont see any words there, but the titles I see are:
"Your Friend is Welcome at Our Party" and
"I Will Never Be as Romantic As He Is"
...sounds like advice for girls who are un-single. Not what I was talking about...
Rom
Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
Are you all so clueless that you need *Slashdot*, of all places, to teach you how to pick up women?
You'd be surprised.
The realm of romance is to me a completely foreign element.
It's like being thrust into a far-off country where the language and customs are so completely alien as to paralyze you.
I wander about in this maze, trying to find a way of participating, but when someone tries to explain it, they explain it in that language that I don't understand.
All the time, I have friends give me advice like "just be yourself", and "just look for the signals" and other such things.
Apparently, women will do things in their comportment and manner of speech and even physical positioning to show that she's interested, but I wouldn't pick it up unless she jumped on me.
I mean, you spend your adolescence reading these trashy magazines where the women are in obvious sultry poses, and suddenly you realize that no girls are doing that to you.
By the time you enter adulthood, you realize that the magazines were only a fantasy, but you are still completely baffled about the reality that IS there.
When I am with a girl, I spend so much time petrified with fear that I'm going too far, that I end up turning into a cold fish (which is even worse).
I always feel like I'm trying to make a crystal figurine with a sledgehammer.
5. Church, I know i said an unheard of word as far as some people are concerned, but going to your local house of worship is often a very good place to find funny and entertaining women. There is something to be said for being active in your religion of choice.
Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!
This is a VERY BAD IDEA.
As an ex-christian, I have witnessed countless people come into the church to find a girl.
What you're not realizing is that the church elders will have a lot of say on this issue, and will always speak against this kind of relationship.
The reasoning behind this is that in dating someone, you are essentially courting them for marriage. And marriage between the believer and the non-believer ("Do not be yoked together with unbelievers") is a Bad Thing (tm).
Essentially, don't expect to get anywhere with a Christian girl unless you plan to be converted.
And yes, introvertedness makes relationships so
much more difficult. Not just in the sense of
meeting people, but also in maintaining
relationships.
The strange thing is, being introverted myself, I am able to lay my soul bare in text, but completely shut myself in if it comes to a face-to-face encounter.
I'm glad to hear that there are indeed women out there who enjoy thought (There are so few people who think to begin with).
My roommate is one of those few who can think, but since he's male and we're not gay, I must continue my search =)
I honestly do not want to get done with writing a really groovy perl script, or finish a sweet game of quakeIII, and then go to my wife for loving, and she's in there playing starcraft.
Heck, I would!
I'd join her. Then when we've whooped ass, we can fool around a bit.
I'm a poly kinky pagan bi geek boy, and I have several girlfriends:
Two are computer programmers.
One's a marketer.
One's an artist and a mother.
Two are of the "beauty" type this guy says aren't interested in me.
One has enhanced breasts.
None of them are old fashioned girls (i.e. door mats.)
They all have their own means of income, and on the average, they out earn me, although I do barely out earn a few. I don't have to spend my week earning enough money to "get lucky" with them.
With or without their makeup, NONE of them are plain.
(Note that they are in more than one catagory above.)
I cook dinner for the at least as much as they do for me.
I cook dinner for them and their other boyfriends too!
Most important of all, I've opened my eyes to realize there are plenty of beautiful women, a fair number of them geek girls, a fair number not. Some of then find me attractive some don't and vice versa.
But if you can find the polyamorous ones, then you've got something!.
--- It is not the things we do which we regret the most, but the things which we don't do.
This article I am sure wasn't meant to be offensive. It was simply to help out those geeks out there who do need a little advice in the love department. It does /NOT/ say that every geek who reads /. has trouble with love, nor does it say that you have to read every article. The title itself says that it is his advice for lovelorn geeks. If you aren't a lovelorn geek, you don't have to read it.
This was of course not meant to flame, but simply to help enlighten those who think that every article is directed at them. If the article is your thing, that's fantastic. If not, don't worry about it much, it wasn't meant for you.
Except the ones who are homophobic.
Yeah, the best example you can come up with is a set of fictional characters. That should tell you something about the validity of what you're saying.
In theory, theory and practice are the same thing. In practice, they're not.
Hmm... Mike and Sarah... Yeah, maybe they have a good relationship. However, I still think that people who model their relationship on that of a couple of TV characters aren't living entirely in the real world.
Let me tell you a secret. This wont come as a surprise to many of you: How you feel is not random. You are programmed to feel good in specific situations and you are programmed to feel like shit in other situations. This is where being a programmer comes in handy. You already know how to program computers so why not re-program yourself?
This is a *major* advantage when it comes to girls (or guys). In relationships, people always complain that the other person wont change. But what if you are willing to change? You're going to be in *high* demand. Let me tell you, this is what is most attractive: the ability to change yourself dynamically, on the fly. That's where it's at big time! And as a programmer, you have a huge head start because you already know programming.
This raises an interesting point that was not really covered in the original piece. I am sure it is covered in one of the comments, but damn if I am going to read that many. Here's the point:
DON'T WAIT
If you see a lady you want to talk to, talk to her. If you want to do something with her, talk to her, get to know her a bit, and ask her. If you hang around thinking she'll never like you and never date you, guess what, you're right, she never will. Geek or not, if you don't go after anything, chances are, it won't fall into your lap. Did you just one day know how to compile a kernel? No way. You probably f'ed up something the first time you tried.
Don't worry about feeling awkward. We all do when we talk to someone we don't know. Look in her eyes. She is probably a bit apprehensive too. If you can't look in her eyes (shyness or whatever) at least look at her face. Whatever you do, don't look at the floor or god-forbid one of the no-no-places (you know where they are). People in general respond better to someone who looks them in the eye and appears to have self-confidence.
Finally, don't buy into that BS peddaled by movies like Powder and Lucas. The quiet, pastey, awkward, and plain old wierd geek doesn't get the great girl. EVER. Nobody, least of all people looking for any kind of relationship, is going fall in love with a person out of pitty. And, if they do, run like hell, you're better off dating the silicon crack whore.
The only thing you can do here is grow a pair, grit your teeth, and talk to her. You have been watching her it seems. You know some things she likes. Look into them. Find something you can at least talk about. It doesn't have to interest you, so long as it's something you can talk about and listen to without losing interest. You got a 50/50 chance, she will either like you or not. Either way, you will know.
/Sig/
Hmmm, I hadn't thought about that point. I suppose that is a valid point. I guess I would have been less quick to find fault if it had been an article on why geek girls may not really be what will make you happy. If he had cut out the last 1/2 I suppose I would have been perfectly happy reading it.
I know my wife is a luddite, she really doesn't like using them too much. When the talk among our friends turns to computers she often starts feigning death, which usually makes us turn the conversation elsewhere. But we have plenty of other interests/activities in common.
I know it wasn't meant to be offensive, I just said it rubbed me the wrong way. You're probably right that I'm just being over-sensitive and should have just gone to the next article.
Sorry, I think the hangover's impairing my humour subroutine. I'll try and be a little slower with the reply button next time.
It's all wonderful advice... the other things to remember are:
:) It also lets them open up and gives you more chance for conversation - which is great if you're shy. People don't tend to be interested in people who aren't interested in them :)
:)
Get yourself out into social situations. Become a regular at a bar. Go to parties. Act as a listener, rather than a broadcaster - you're much more interesting if you're asking people about themselves, as they're on familiar ground, and know a lot about that stuff
Other things:
There's an element of risk in everything. If a girl is looking deep into your eyes, and brushing her hair back, and seems to be... expecting something, then touch her. You'll find out quickly enough if that touch was uninvited. And I don't mean touch her in a sexual way - just touch her arm, or rub her back lightly.
Basically - trust your instincts. Don't worry about being wrong too much. (Difficult for a geek, I know). Also, it's not binary. There are millions of shades of gray in real human interaction - the trick is to learn to accept that and go with it, rather than to reduce everything down to if/else clauses.
Simon
Coming soon - pyrogyra
As I think most people would agree, this 'feature' is something of a departure from the typical /. fare. Personally, I found some of the ideas expressed in it more than a bit offensive.
/. reader for quite a while now, and obviously I've had negative reactions to literally hundreds of reader posts in the past. But I think the fact that this is content written and displayed as a 'feature' puts it in a separate class.)
./ any longer.
(I've been a habitual
What I'd really like to know is if this was really an attempt at 'humor' (As many have noted, it was placed it the 'It's funny. Laugh.' category. As many have also noted, it's does not appear to be written for laughs.) or if it was a genuine attempt by roblimo to express his views?
This distinction is important to me. If this truly was a feeble attempt at satire, then I just won't read roblimo for witty insight. But if it was intended as a 'serious' article, then I honestly don't want to read this kind of stuff and I don't think I'll bother with
My world is not computers. Yeah i have a very computer oriented job and go to a very computer oriented school. But i dont care if the guy im with is. Its definatly a bonus though. I like geeks, there great in bed and dont like makeup (yeah). What i dont like is a geek guy who tries to fix it for me every time i get confused writting C code. Yeah, i want things explained when i dont understand them, but im not an idiot. The main problem i have found with most geek guys is that they really do want to show off. I dont want him to show off. I want him to explain the occaisional thing and NOT criticize my decisions. Especially about computers. Its a hard world out there and if the >18 guys out there want decent girls they have to learn that. The internet community is very accepting of fems but in the real world it isnt so. I spent two years not knowing what a .bat file was. I had never had to use one. DOS was somthing i used to run C test programs. If i wanted command line i would go use the unix box under my desk. Durring those two years many of my male coworkers had explaind to me .bat files. But i still didnt know what one was. Finally a female coworker asked me to write some for her. I asked how to do it and she showed me how. Durring the entire two eyars not a single male coworker had told me that you just put DOS commands in text file and run it in DOS. Not a single one. They had all given me the explanation that it runs mutiple DOS commands from one file. Well thats great, but how.
The point gentlmen is that we are not idiots, and prefer to be treated like peers. When we ask what appears to be stupid question, it isnt a sign of weekness. Knowledge comes by asking questions, and my boyfriend at least always answers them, and isnt afraid to say he doesnt know. Thats another key. If your a programmer and perl god, im not going to expect you to explain the intricacies of RAM to me. But you might know. So i will ask, you arented expected to give the perfect answer, just a simple "im not sure" will do. It doenst change my view. Learn me well enough to know that.
My darling SO has learned these things. Along with little lessons along the lines of "That ergo keyboard you ot my for me birthday is great, I needed one. But could you have wrapped it first? Maybe with a card and somthing nice written inside". Little things matter, but most off all respect. Besides, when your GF feels respected, she is a heck of a lot more fun in bed.
I think ive rambled enough. Happy hunting boys.
Lissell (where have all the cowboys gone?)
The thing is that, in my experience, most younger guys, when faced with a technical question by a girl, will try and explain it to her whether they know the answer or not. Most of the older men on the other hand have given me the general low level answers that they are used to giving everyone who askes an annoying question. Its easier to get the techie fems to view you as an equal. They actually had to fight for their jobs, mine was handed to me, there used to supporting newbies.
And certainly not all males are like this. My SO taught me everything i know about linux. I learned HTML from some of the male seniors at school with out any problems. I also learned C from a very helpfull college friend of mine, who happens to be male. They have all been wonderfull, but each one has occaisionally given me a funny answer when i didnt ask my question in the right syntax.
I guess the point i was trying to make was that most fem geeks(or techs) really prefer a guy who views them as an itellectual equal. This is somthing everyone, even fems, have to learn how to do. And the younger you are, the harder it is. We humans like feeling superior.
I may have just made a complete feminazi out of myself for this, but oh well. This is a brutal industry, and sometimes, you have to bite.
Lissell (where have all the cowboys gone?)
When i started i asked a lot of stupid questions, and got equivilant answers. The most memorable being the time i asked my best friend what "that" was. I was pointing to the proccessor and expecting somthing like "pentium 166" or an equivilant. HE went into a detailed description of overclocking. Needless to say it was way above my head and i was to shy to say so. I have since gotten better at asking questions, wich means i get better answers. But not always, and of course improvment is always happening.
And as for asking inanely stupid questions of my coworkers: I am constantly being asked to do things ive never done. My manager does this so I can learn, thats her job, unfortunatly most of the people she sicks me on to learn dont know that. She tells them "lissell doesnt have any familiarity with Apache, you will have to teach her" and they just let it slide over. Wich means i get to ask stupid questions. ;-)
But i am learning, i do so everyday. If i wasnt, they wouldnt be keeping me.
Lissell (where have all the cowboys gone?)
Just out of curiosity, Is anyone reading this familiar with gender based thought patterns? I kinda wonder if it has an effect on how people choose there mates? Do we go for people with patterns similar to our own or so we select people as different as possible? Or is that somthing you can really even tell about a person?
So many questions, so many answers.
Lissell (where have all the cowboys gone?)
No, you're not an oddity. It can be frustrating to be seen as something other than "just one of the guys" when you really want a romantanic relationship. Especially when the guys that you're hanging with (or at least a subset of them) are the ones you consider datable. The good news is that a romantic relationship is possible. The bad news is that you have to overcome the introvertedness and let them know in no uncertain terms that you're interested. You might risk losing that person as a friend, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
I ended up marrying my best friend, but I had to kiss him one night, just out of the blue. We had a very close, platonic relationship at the time, so I'm not recommending this for everyone, but it felt right at the time.
-Jennifer
I am a geek. I also have a degree in medieval history and literature, and have had absolutely no formal training whatsoever in computer science or any related field. That doesn't stop me from getting a high-paying geek job in today's economy, however.
Technology is a great equalizer. In today's economy, it doesn't matter what your major was. It doesn't matter how many years of experience you have. All that matters is how well you code, how good a sysadmin you are, how fast you learn, and how much passion you have for the machines and the software that runs them.
Another thing: these days, with the high cost of living in the technology centers of the world, having two breadwinners in the family is not a bad thing. In short, money shouldn't be a concern in choosing a mate, unless you are in need of a provider yourself.
"Who is more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him?" -- Obi-Wan Kenobi
I think we females (all 7% of us hehe) need at least one female author on /., so we can get articles like this : )
I wonder if Mrs. Roblimo is interested...hmm...if not I'd be glad to take the job : )
miyax
resolution, baby!
don't let the twinkle in her eye get aliased out! all my women are at least 1600x1200.
--
The Wu Master
hey guys. this is bs. im a girl and im a geek and i dont do cpmputer stuff *too* obsessively. and (guess what) my boyfriend is a comptuer geek too. and we get along just fine. youre being mislead.
...
It's very, very, very hard to balance the abstraction and technical level of an answer to someone when it's a topic as wide and deep as computers. If somone asks me something at work (How does XYZ work, whats that, whats this) it's always a challenge to know what to include and what to keep out of the answer. Some people might say...."but if your coworker who's got a degree in yada-da-da and has been working with dii-dum for two years, of course you know approx how much he/she knows" and the answer is....of course not....some people have been working with the same thing all their life (and have a very narrow but deep field of expertise) or have very nice education on paper (but not in their head)....what I'm saying is that before you actually know the person asking the question...been working with him/her for a while etc. you have no idea if the person asking the question:
:) (I love hiding behind that fact)
"But if I have RAM in my computer what do I need cache for"
is expecting
A) The RAM is a biiiiig and slow warehouse and the cache is a small and fast one with lots of people working in it
B) Two blueprints, one of a PC100 SDRAM and one of a pipeline burst cache memory module
C) Something else
So the hesitance and "incorrect level" of the answers doesn't have to be gender-related....
If I don't make any sense it's because english isn't my native language!
//David
women, can't live with 'em && can't live without 'em.
.sig
matisse:~$ cat
I know women are often hard to find if you don't do the dance scene or go bar hopping. Not doing either of those things is sometimes an extremely good thing. As one of the female geeks that is always on the lookout for decent girls to introduce to my male friends, i have found Roblimo's, our "pimp of slashdot", comments to actually be resonably accurate. Now, i may take issue with him on the subject of dating geek girls, but he is right in that for a lot of people, geek girls would be a bad match. (My bf who is watching me type this says "Especially if there is only one working computer.) Places to start meeting girls: 1. Classes other people can consider hard, or even better, a good old fashioned literature or fine arts class. 2. Work, I don't usually recommend dating coworkers, but if you can find a cute little secretary or accountant in another department that you don't really relate to, you could have a wonderful time. 3. Gasp, Sports, a lot of women like to go out and play sports. If you join the company softball team, you could meet that quiet pretty little thing from another department or another commpany and just hit it right off. 4. Coffee houses are the new bars in a manner of speaking for a lot of younger people. I don't know how lucky you would get, but at least the coffee is good 5. Church, I know i said an unheard of word as far as some people are concerned, but going to your local house of worship is often a very good place to find funny and entertaining women. There is something to be said for being active in your religion of choice. 6. Actually let one of your friends set you up on a date, you may only allow this once depending on your friend's taste. Lastly, I think just going out and being social in the evening instead of planting yourself in front of a computer monitor helps. Now, I am very guilty of being stuck in front of a computer monitor for large periods of time, so i am not accuseing anyone. As a geeky girl, I hope these sugestions help 'cause these are the places where you will find my non-geeky friends.
"Alt-F4 that's for quitting" quoth Dan_Wood
To think, all this time I've been running around the streets of downtown with my shirt over my head resiting the HOWTOS in that I memorized from A-Z and it's a bad way to get girls.
-D0n'+ h$+3 M3 b3C0u5e 1'M 4 1337 Hax0R!-
and as for "old fashioned girls"... cooking.. cleaning... wiping your ass
:)
well I'm not even going to go there... but in that one sentence.. you lost my respect.
They may be out there... but wheres their individuality? well... besides surrendering it over to the morman church... I'd say this is THE 90's! but come on... I thought our society was past all of this.
decide what it is you want in a girl... a baby popping dishwasher or someone that will be able to survive if you died tommorrow.
ok now I'm done... i think
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I agree... this really offended me as well.
:)
Any of my online guy pals that are reading this and know who I am are probably saying "uh oh... here she goes..."
well where shall I begin... "Dont waste your time on geek girls" yeah boys.. take his advice.. and then when your wife divorces you because you wont give her the attention you give your computer... you'll want someone who "understands you... you and all your passions combined"
When you want affection... if it's meant to be.. she wont be coding and posting on slashdot.. she'll recognize this and let go of the keyboard.
in a nutshell.. As a "geek girl" I feel so encredibly stereotyped.
Don't you want someone who would get excited when you come home with 50 feet of cat5 and say "Lets wire this house to the tilt" Or do you want someone that would say "wtf is that... you're not putting those ugly wires all over my house"
Bottom line.. in the long run... you need to be able to share your main passion with that other person.
next item: "I've gone out with more than a few "hot babes" in my time and I generally found them to be more trouble than they were worth."
This is saying a few things... if you're good looking.. you are not relationship material. Whether its baggage.. or conceit, or a lack of brains.... I can't believe you have taken the issue of looks and said all hot people are "like this" I like to think of myself as a pretty good looking girl... I work out 5 times a week... I have blonde hair... definatly no lack of options... but my degree is the most important thing to me right now. I couldnt be bothered dating (not to mention.. theres only one geek for me)
I have enough trouble getting people to listen to me... and its people like you that are the cause of it. People see me and assume I dont know shit about computers... and when I tell them im an information systems major their jaw drops. I can't remember the last time I walked into a computer store and recieved help from someone that worked there.
If you want some real advice guys... here it is..
The biggest reason I have turned down geeks is one simple thing... Self-esteem. I've met some really incredible people... but I cant stand being around someone with no self-esteem.
Instead of buying PC Gamer next month... pick up a Cosmo instead. You'll learn more than you ever wanted to know.
Oh.. and don't stereotytpe people. If you see a geek girl or a playboy model.. dont remember anything you have read here... find out for yourself if you would enjoy that person.
Sorry this is so long but arrrgh... you really got my panties in a bunch
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I enjoyed that :)
I was talking more about the "confessions of real women" and "sex secrets" part of the issues.. but you have such a valid point and clear definition of "cosmo" I cant help but sit here and grin.
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According to Roblimo, Debbie thought it was funny, as it was intended to be. He mentioned this in a post that was a reply to a reply (...) to one of the earliest posts. It takes too long to reload the page for me to look it up, but it was something around #284, I think.
His main point in that post was that this was intended as humor, and a lot of people didn't get it.
Code is garbage in garbage out.
Languge is garbage in, non-sequitor out.
Gee, I don't know. WAY back when, this old geek used to play D&D - NO not AD&D, but back when it was three little books that no one had heard of. One day, my best freind brings this girls he's known since she was 4 to a gaming session. Mary ended up liking D&D, and became one of the gang. About 2 years later, we started dating. Folks, that was March 1980. We have a happy little 2 1/2 year old girl who is a total computer nerd (would rather play with the computer than watch TV)
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
I'm at my friend C.'s wedding this weekend and she introduces me to her friend B. B. and I hit it off and wind up spending most of our time talking together (as neither of us know most of the other guests and members of the groom's family). She's pretty, smart, holds up her end of a conversation (I was literally able to listen to her talk all day), really doesn't give a rat's ass about computers (and made me not mind that), and doesn't wear makeup. These are all good things. I'm thinking "Wow, here's an intelligent woman who seems to enjoy my company, isn't any _more_ neurotic than I am, looks more than a little bit like Winona Ryder, and likes my hat. What did I do _right_ recently?"
Then, in the course of conversation, she tells me she has Multiple Sclerosis. It doesn't weird me out, so she tells me about an attack she had recently, very candidly, very honestly. Now, however, I'm questioning my attraction to her because I have this mental image of me in my 40's, helping her use the toilet. So what do I do? Here's possibly the most interesting person I've met in the last 5 years. Do I attempt to start a relationship with her? Knowing that I might not be emotionally equipped to deal with health problems that may not even come up? (2 out of 3 MS patients never lose their capacity to walk, completely debilitating MS is quite rare)
This is probably the wrongest possible forum to ask this stuff in, and possibly the worst group from which to seek advice, but I'm willing to ask.
-- The Sage does nothing, and nothing is left undone. --Lao Tzu
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"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
The strange thing is, being introverted myself, I am able to lay my soul bare in text, but completely shut myself in if it comes to a face-to-face encounter.
I know what you mean, though I don't know, why this is so. Maybe it's because when you do not talk directly to someone else, there is "no immediate danger". Don't know how to describe it otherwise.
I too had this problem, but then I just keep in mind that I can't get killed by telling a girl that I find her attractive or by admitting my sympathy.
Worst thing that can happen is that you get a rejection. But hey, you wouldn't expect your code to run without errors after the first compiling either.
And then, you could always write a letter (by hand of course!) stating that you did not know how she would react if you told her live about your feelings and therefore decided to send her this letter.
--- If OS were buildings, then the first woodpecker to come around would erase 95 % of civilization.
I hope his wife is at peace with being handmaid, sperm repository, and baby factory. I am so revolted by the number of assenting responses to this essay, (to paraphrase woody allen "and I'm complimenting you by considering it an essay") that I once again resolve to never read Slashdot again.
C'mon. really.
My money's on mille having never even heard of slashdot,
and you're of the 5 to Idiot age range so you post the
address to be funny.
I'm not laughing.
Don't view things in such an absolute fashion. It's not the case that every "successful" relationship ends up in marriage.
I can think of numerous cases among my friends
where a long happy relationship broke up, but where the former couple remained close friends. I consider that a successful relationship, even though it ended.
One thing that always blows me away is that everyone assumes that we all like the same type of person. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I like red haired, green eyed, freckeled, pixie girls. My friend Mike likes Brown haired, brown eyed, pail skined girls. Do we like the same thing? No! My perfect mate would look like an oddball to Mike. And mikes 'type' does not interest me in the least. So what does this mean? It means that if you don't like red head's by all means do not date them. That way they will be availible for those who like red heads and are willing to accept (and value) them as they are. Be discriminating (look that up in the dictionary it means 'to make a carefull choice'.) that way everybody can get what they are looking for.
I found your comments very heartening. I haven't made a priority of finding a mate, because I know I wouldn't make a good partner. Why not? I spend most of my time "geeking out" and I'm not in a hurry to change my behavior. Kids? No way! I'd be a horrible father and it would really cramp my geek lifestyle. If I told a woman I'd make her my first priority, it would be a lie and we'd both pay for that lie eventually.
:-)
There's a strong social pressure to find a mate. People tend to think that if you don't have a mate, then you must be horribly flawed in some way. Oh well - there's always a price for going against the grain. Later in life my interests may change, and I may try to find a woman who can tolerate me
People are often so keen to find a mate that they lie to themselves and/or their partner at the outset of a relationship. Neither person benefits from this in the long run. "Falling in love" is an irrational process anyway. At some early stage you decide "I am in *love* with this woman" and then you are willing to undertake any deception (and allow yourself to be deceived) in order to realize your romantic goal. Not being desperate for a relationship (and not rushing it) is probably the greatest key for finding a good, lasting one.
Ewww, icky.
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CAIMLAS
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
In my opinion, one's interests make little, if any, importance for most people. Sure, they're an integral factor in most instances, but from what I've observed, personality and emotional needs have much more pull. I say it sucks, to some extent, that we need our SO's sooooo much more than was so 100 years ago, when life was simple and less intense (less stressful too, maybe?) I'm just glad that we have a less stringent 'marriage' system than there was then, or there would be a _lot_ of problems with personality conflicts.
For instance, some individuals need, like Rob, someone to "take care of them" - in a sence - it's how they feel loved. Others need someone they can relate to, still others need someone who has a similar emotional or opposite emotional composure.
Overall, I agreed with many of the generalizations, but some were fairly borderline or completely derailed. Bits about no geek/attractive females was really off, for example. I personally need someone that I can relate to. Being able to relate to them on my interests is key, but so is personality. I really need someone that has a possitive outlook on life, is mostly cheerful, observant, creative and technical, caring, sensible, and vastly introspective. Most of these things because they are characteristics I find in myself, but also because many of these things would complement me. (Ok, most of them complement me - I would need their cheerful attitudes and senibility in order to keep me sane.)
Also keep into consideration that merely because she's beautiful doesn't mean that she can't be intelligent and deep thinking, etc. - it's just rare. Physical appearance shouldn't be much of an issue, but if you're going to marry someone or become close to them, you'd be stupid if they were ugly. (I personally plan to find the right lady, marry her, and not let her go!) :) Albiet, no matter how good the relationship is and how well two people get along, there's always going to be problems. That's why love is a decision, a commitment, not an emotion (which is merely lust, longing, etc).
IMHO, even though this was intended as a humorous piece, it approached the subject slightly too straightforward. I also believe that it used a poor choice of wording for some items. (IE, boobs, is generally considered perverse, and could have possibly been refered to in a more general tense so as to not offend certain individuals of either sex.)
I find it GREAT that there are other people that compare life experiences to computer operations, systems, etc. I have an ongoing gag with a friend in which we compare personalities and ways of thought with operating systems and programming languages. (Other various things pop up too - hardware, etc. For example, I've got a lot of RAM, run linux (ala stable), and a high speed hard drive with a high capacity - for executive material only. A smaller disk with a slower speed for non-critical/deemed important information, and a mid-upper-market processor.)
ASSIDE TO ROBLIMO (and anyone that cares about grammar):
I couldn't help notice that you said:
The girls who laugh at you in high school laugh because they're nervous and, if you're exceptionally bright, posibly because they're a little bit scared of you.
The reason that this struck me as funny was due to a comment you made later on about *ahem* someone's writting style and habits. The third word from the end of the paragraph should not be 'scared'; rather, it should be 'afraid'. This is because 'scared' is used in the context of doing something to someone, IE, "I scared you", and 'afraid' is used in the context of having something done to you, IE, "I am afraid".
I personally feel that grammar is important, but spelling is not as much so, as long as words are conveyed in a way that people generally understand - thus coloquealisms (sp>) appear - which thus cause more variant spellings. (However, some spelling mistackes can't be eskused.) Besides, I'm a poor speller. :) Just MO.
I realize it's not that important - your intent was understood (which is what language is all about - the better you're able to do so, the better you are at writting) - but it struck me as humorous and ironic.
Even more so, since I'm yet in high school. :)~
Also, about this sentence. Girls laugh at me due to the fact that I'm funny (so I'm told) and I easy tension by easing the atmosphere. Or maybe it is because I'm funny looking? :)
Holy cow! THAT's a book!
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CAIMLAS
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Of all things I have been accused of, politically correct hurts most. In retrospect I guess the quoted comment was a little hyperbolic and populistic. I repent.
The point is this: the article makes it very clear that what he is primarily looking for in a partner is what it does for him. Whether she will be there for him, have time for him, whatever. I find that disturbing, since (and, like about a lot things, maybe I'm just not disillusioned enough) love should be based on a desire to do things for the other. What they do for you is secondary.
If one sees a relationship primarily as a source of affection for oneself (and I realize that a lot of people, men and women, do this) then it IS a lot closer to prostitution than love.
-
Finally, Rob must have known with reasonable certainty that he'd get flamed royally for daring to speak about some of these things, but he went ahead with it anyway. I respect him for that, and I think there should be more of it: We should be able to be honest in public instead of ducking away from very important truths simply because we know some people with a political axe to grind won't like it. Your original comment about how Katz would be proud a forum like slashdot exists is no doubt true, but I suspect the comments of some of the readers following the article would detract somewhat from the gloss. One of the great losses our society has suffered throughout the 90's is that people have become afraid to talk about what they really think, because there are so many little groups who make a professional point of attacking opinions; My hope for the next decade is that the Internet can help us get back to reality by providing forums for people to be honest about what they think about homosexual Mozambiquian llamas without having to put up with public denigration and hate-crime lawsuits from "The Peoples' Front In Support of Reinforcement of the Sexual Self-Determination of Mozambiquian Llamas".
/. ) of being allowed to say things that piss people off. But if you say things publically that piss people off, you have to have thick skin for the reply.
/. is like a steer's horns, a point here, a point there and a lot of bull in between.
I am a big supporter (as I think I have proved with abundance here on
Roblimo's public statement that I as a geek should be looking for a woman who is most likely to want to do my bidding is insulting to me. And while he is in his right in insulting me, he will then have to stand for my insulting, equal public, reply that I consider such a relationship nothing more than emotions for sale.
obviously it is unfortunate if his wife (who is no-doubt a nice person) should read this and be upset. But he dragged her into this public discussion, not I.
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Come on then Nitrozac. You've got the geek-cred it takes to write the other side of this. How about an article for the 'geek girls' to get decent blokes? Roblimo's article said they weren't the best thing for geeks, what should they be looking for then?
Either way, Debbie can appear in your strip anytime - you have the POWER!
insignificant sig
) stay honest and try to show interest in things without microprocessors.
/., I mean)
:) whatever they may be; if you try, you'll find someone who either shares the interest or at least can tolerate it, if you share another genuine interest.
*Why* do I keep seeing this? (multiple places besides
If *all* you care about is computers, then you'd be really unhappy in a relationship with someone who doesn't care for them. Shared interests in SOMEthing can make a relationship work--it doesn't have to exclude computing!
If something's important to you, don't pretend it's not--any more than you'd affect an interest in (f'rinstance) sports, if you hate them. That will *NOT* help you meet the woman of your dreams.
"Stay honest" is right--but being honest isn't compatible with feigning interest is something you care nothing about, or trying to ignore your real interests. Faking it will just make trouble later.
But be open about your obsessions
www.fufme.com :)
That pisses all people off!
Shut up dumbass!
For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the sheltered will never know.
*sigh*
Not always. Some women dislike oral sex, as do some men.
Actually, conversation works better than sticking body parts into your mouth...
My personal advise: try curtain number three. That is, try dating, but without the goal of landing multiple sex partners or a future wife. Just go out and get to know a few of the girls at your college.
The best strategy to finding a life partner, statistically speaking, is to date about a half-dozen to a dozen girls over the course of college (with a 'date' being as little as "hey, do you want to go out for a cup of coffee with me"), and when you find "the one", you have a good statistical likelihood that she is the optimal solution.
There will also be a statistical likelihood that there will be "the one who got away"--the one who was as good as the one who you marry, but who got away.
Yeah, there will be some room here to get yourself physically "satisfied". But just keep in mind that statistically speaking, married guys get more sex than single guys...
Look: some of us may be well socialized. (I think I do pretty damn good in the social department myself.) But most of the computer geeks I know (along with the physics geeks and math geeks from my alma mater) aren't the best socialized group of geeks around.
/. which covered that topic.
Honestly, the most common question I've heard from my geek friends is not "how do I configure a NIC to work with my Compaq under RedHat" or "what do I watch out for when writing portable software using C" but "how do I get a girlfriend."
I don't need advise on how to cool my CPU after clock-chipping, but I don't begrudge the news article on
Keep in mind when I wrote what I did, I was also refering to the act of the original poster putting his foot into his own mouth... grin
Sexism is defined by WWWebster's as "1 : prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women 2 : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex". By definition, sexism precludes mutual respect.
that this was just buddy's attempt at stirring up conversation eh.
Alrighty then, hints from a young bloke who's still learnin'...
;)...
Stop trying to get a love life... concentrate on having a good time and meeting girls (*nice* girls) follows...
OK, you've found your nice girl, you like her so much you can't even remember what she looks like and even the slightest mention of her name causes you to faint... Well, the chances are the she feels the same as you so start off small, ask her for her phone number, ask her if she fancies doing anything next week. The chances are she will and with you... sorted.
Keep with it, let it flow and enjoy it. Don't push for sex within the first week and just again concentrate on enjoying the feelings flowing forth. Corney, but true...
...and so the course of true love follows (or not
Say that you don't like this girl after all... how to 'dump' her without to many problems. First rule - DON'T do it over the phone, it's *so* rude and she'll tell all her friends what a complete git you are. Ask to see her for whatever reason, or wait for a day until you know you're going to see her in person.
Now, as for the actual wording... just try to go for something along the lines of "It's not you, it's me". Minimum fuss and upsets. Plus makes you feel better than being a bastard.
Oh, and I agree don't go for those who you fancy from looks alone... Those types of girls just use you and destroy you. Ever been out with someone, slept with them and then a few days later been told by that very girl that she's been sleeping with another man since she's been seing you only to tell you "I'm really sorry". Believe me, that *hurts*.
Is it Just me, or is everybody in any given area or situation is showing off how they love each other in the most "in-your-face" of ways as a conspiracy? I have seen too many people "bragging" about how they have someone to love by doing anything short of making out in public to make me bitter about myself? Oh well, here goes the things for Roblimo to read...
Regarding Roblimo's words:
Don't Waste Your Time on Geek Girls:
How am I supposed to do so, while a big chunk of the women in the college I attend mistakens me for somebody more messed-up or they're more messed-up themselves. None of them will recognize me as a computer enthusiast or a budding theatre person, but only as a "freak for the ZBT fraternity guys to pick on." Either that, or they're too young for me to like (they're freshmen, and I'm a junior!? Ecch!).
There's More to Life Than Computing:
I don't know... I really don't know how to take the (if conflicting) interests of others. I am a person who is into a bit of anything (theatre, computers, computer games, and other forms of art), but I don't take certain things well (day-time and evening soap operas, pop artists with three-day half-lives, etc.).
Teenagers Take Heart: It Gets Better:
It's a great idea to put this in, for the fact that no one should assume anything about anybody else too hastily. This golden rule is too late for me nowadays, because I have been picked on by everybody in a "Hellmouth" long enough to have my blood made bitter. Wait a minute, I do have an admiration thing for women like Ute Lemper, Wendy Liebman, and so on to "protect" the semblance of my mind... I have to fix that as well.
--
And now: Something from the creative side of my brain:
For my brain's source code -- a worklog of sorts:
Note: The "person" object in these worklogs only apply for person.gender == "female," for my sexual_orientation == "heterosexual" && gender == "male". The functions are within the categories of things to do for finding the right woman.
1. The source code for the Just_dont_give_a_fsck(person) function for the use of people who pissed me off is somewhat working, written after having a fascinating conversation with some actress by the name of Ruthie Henshall and gaining a moment of clarity right at the corner of 45th and Broadway. With a little bit of tweaking, it can be fully utilized for anybody else.
2. The function bob_bastard(void) (Invoked when ask_out_to_date(person) returns a "no" answer from said person -- written after watching the Dilbert TV show with the character of the same name), which changes the person.likes_you value to "no" for all persons in an array (from the college, from the whole city, from the whole planet, etc.), must be removed from source code ASAP. Anything else that bob_bastard will change should be taken care of.
3. The threshold within women_i_would_love_to_hang_out_with might've been cranked up too high (last known to be an "unreachable" person like "Ute Lemper," "Wendy Liebman," or "Ruthie Henshall"). This problem must be addressed as well quickly!
4. Figure out how free() is used for any of the malloc(sizeof(person)) instances to "forget" about the person who rejected me. If not, use Just_dont_give_a_fsck(person) to do a more thorough method to free() memories of said person. Otherwise, the leaked memory might cause bob_bastard to act even worse.
5. A better social skills-related API should be used. Something that is as thorough as the API used to make talking with Ruthie Henshall possible, but with more scope in terms of the types of persons that one can talk to (besides people who is known to be "unreachable") and does not involve the use of irrational fears.
6. Resist the tempation to edit the if/then clause for the determine_age(person) function in the determine_if_my_type(person) function. I ain't datin' anybody younger than myself!!!
7. If necessary, fix the bug that makes a person.age to be subtracted ten years if they're around my age. A young woman (18, 19 whatnot) should not be mistaken for 8- to 9-year old girls.
8. Last, but not least, leave the ethical subroutines alone!!! Most men ditch this stuff, but I shouldn't.
I know, I post this same thing every time I see this leap of logic being made, but that's 'cause it bothers me so much. I haven't done any serious programming in years (web design doesn't count, to me) but I still 1) know my way around a computer quite well as an end-user; 2) like Star Trek, AD&D, Bradbury, and lots of other stereotypically-geeky things; and 3) allegedly have a high IQ, and was skipped several grades. I'm not the typical
And so are my science-geek friends, probably. (Hi, Crystal!)
"Somebody exploded a letter-bomb today
Does anyone else find it humourous that the orginal poster's comment got moderated as informative?
Euh Scott,
;-)
I think you've slashdotted Marissa's page into oblivion.... (I think We did....)
_ Light travels faster than sound. That is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.... -
Amen to that. Well, not really, your wife's breasts aren't my favorite ;-) But my girlfriend's are. I mean, they look nice and all that on their own, but it's really the fact that they are hers that makes me like them.
And don't even get me started about attractive women that think they aren't. My gf isn't perfect in the sense that everyone would think she's attractive, but to me, she most certainly is. I think she's hot, and damn she's got a great personality too. But *every* time I tell her how beautiful she is, she kind of shrugs it off, with just a simple "thank you" and a smile. She didn't really get the idea until she came to visit me at school and I pointed out the looks she was getting from other guys... and even then she tried to pass it off. Maybe I can get her to read this... (She's not really a geek, nor does she like computers that much, but i could send her the link)
I'm beginning to rant here, sorry, but I want to say it because I think it can really help people.
Be honest. And when you fall in love, tell the person. My current (and only gf as of yet - i'm 18/in college) didn't think it was possible for me to love her when I told her I did - it was after we went out three times or so. But my gut told me that I had found someone REALLY special and not to let go, and I haven't. Even after some rocky times, we're still together. (but now it's long distance - that can be REAL HARD.)
So now it's been 9, going on 10 months, and I've been truly happy the whole time. When you find love, it IS the best thing you will ever find. I hate to sound all sappy, but I can't really help it... I love this girl, and I would love to simply walk around outside yelling to the world that I love her. I guess this is the closest I can get without being put in a padded room. :-)
If I do get you to read this - I love you Liz.
Sorry again for my rant, Slashdot, but I'm pretty damn happy here and I just want to tell people what they can look forward to.
From a motherboard manual, error beep codes: S-L-L-L-SS: Speaker Error
When you get right down to it, that is the reason I have been "between girlfriends" (and not in the "sandwich" sense ;-) for quite some time.
.(Also, I never meet guys either. All my friends are "old" friends from school days.) Nor am I willing to do what it takes to change that. Fuck "being normal" because I already have my own way of being. I'm not gonna start going to bars, or asking out waitresses (or anyone else where there's a vendor/customer relationship), and I learned a long time ago to keep outta co-workers' pants, especially the married ones. ;-)
:-)
I don't have a problem with the chicks once I learn their names, but I almost never meet them.
When a chick falls into my lap due to strange circumstance, we'll make the best of things. That's slow going, but it's still better than selling out. I just don't understand guys who whine about not having a girlfriend. If you really want one, and you're willing to do what it takes, it's not that hard. It's just a question of values and priorities -- what you want out of life. Cater to a biologically pre-programmed agenda, or your own? In my case, if after I've taken over the planet, if I haven't snagged a chick yet, then maybe I'll go girl-hunting.
Whoa...this pretty much sums up how I feel as well. I do go out often enough (alcohol==good), but never with the express purpose of "snagging" a woman. I have had plenty of relationships here and there, but only with those women who have "fallen into my lap." Or more accurately, those who I have hit it off with immediately. Incidently, I consider each of them quite intelligent and physically attractive, and each for different reasons. That is the beauty of waiting for the chance matchup. I nearly never meet new girls (or guys), despite going out often, for the same reasons, I keep to myself unless I am in a situation where meeting someone is natural and we can act like we do in real life. I agree, you are selling out if you run out of the house every Friday with CK all over yourself to go rub up against women at a club until one will sleep with you. I could never act that way, and I find that if you make yourself visible (go visit old friends, go places alone, hang out with your siblings, etc.) but act normally, something will come along. Like recently, I met a famale who I hit off with instantly. Too bad she had a boyfriend and lives far away. It'll happen again, preferably with no boyfriend. Oh yeah, and make female friend-friends. They will instruct you and make you look like an acceptable man by hanging out with you. Its really not that hard, but you really do have to leave the house. Just go somewhere you want to go with people you like, that way you are never let down. Being single rules.
Chris
wrote this:
http://www.drue.com/writings/geekgirl.html
1000 SlashDot sigs
At the age of 20, having never dated a girl, just two days before the stupid Data Communcation Exams, this article is a real life saver for me !
Thanx Roblimo for giving me hope.. even though it might be a false one !
Manifest
... "follow me" the wise man said, but he walked behind
damn straight. follow his rules, get a bimbo. probably all some of these guys could handle, if that, anyway.
personally, i'm a geek girl with a geek guy and we love each other totally. most geek guys don't have the maturity to understand that women are people, not objects, so in the sea of all these lovely stereotypes and prejudices, i'm glad my jon and i found each other.
hmmm...posted this twice, nothing happened. shucks:
Not like anyone's going to read this, but....
You can tell that anyone who finds this well-spoken article to be offensive was never a 14-year-old boy. It's so easy to knee-jerk and say "HE'S SO SEXIST!" Of course that instantly reveals you as someone who is completely in the dark about being male. I have never found any tenet of feminism or political correctness that takes into consideration the turmoil your body goes through when you first become a teenager. If you weren't there, then you have no idea. Like a kick in the crotch, the pain can not be described to a woman... you either know or you don't. So a man's "journey" through mating begins with confusion and only gets worse with age. It's unfortunate that men need to see things in sexual context FIRST, but they do. Most likely because it began that way with puberty.
But, not to come across too heavy, let me tell you what I know about women:
1. From the onset of puberty to about 13 - Women don't want you, they want some poster boy. Shaun Cassidy, Menudo, New Kids on the Block, Back Street Boys, etc....
2. From 13 to 16 - they don't want you, they want older guys. Why would they date someone in their grade when there's tons of boys that can increase their popularity status?
3. From 16 to 18 - they don't want you, they want boys from other schools. How many times did I hear "I'm so sick of boys from our school... they're so immature!"
4. From 18 to 19 - they want you, but they want everybody... so what difference does it make? All college women go through that "How pretty am I" stage, where they get drunk and flop on their backs for just about anybody. (Well, maybe not ALL WOMEN... but enough that everyone reading this is laughing right now.)
5. From 19 to 21 - they don't want you, they don't want anybody. Now they often want time to themselves, and are very careful about whom they date. Which usually means joining an invisible convent.
I think that this is where our hero (Uncle Robin) picks up. You've gone through your entire life watching women making the absolute biggest fools of themselves, but yet you still are stupid enough to want "in." What do you do?
Kudos to you Uncle Robin.
I think perhaps it depends on your definition of geek. Personally, I define it as "Someone who values intelligence above all physical qualities."
So, basically, smart people. Am I being too broad?
"Be nice to geeky looking girls, just in case they grow up and look good.
Advice to LIVE BY."
Now, the other points I suppose are points of personal preference. Personally, I find large breasts rather unattractive. I mean, think of all the beter uses for that silicon. But that's personal preference. This comment though, implies some sort of superficial idiocy. I mean, think back to when you were a geek in high school. Didn't you just wish people would look past your geekiness. To have people saying that just because they're female, they're not worth anything until they're perfect and subservient makes me ashamed to be male. Besides, braces are damn sexy.
Hmmmm... Yeah, I'd have to agree with you. I guess my problem was with assuming Geek meant Computer Geek. I find that the term aplies to lots of different professions (hobbies too, I suppose).
Keith Duddy : dud at dstc.edu.au : http://www.dstc.edu.au/AU/staff/dud
I second that! My long time girlfriend, while she has very little interest in computers, is very intelligent. A classics major, in fact. She speaks Latin, I speak C++, and somewhere in the confusion, we get along. She's greatly balanced my life, but if she ever caught me writing anything close to Roblimo's piece...well...I suppose the couch isn't that uncomfortable. :)
I grok where AC is coming from - under most circumstances, what he describes would be an easy trap to fall into - but I know the difference between loving her as a friend and pining after her as a mate. Both she and I have had relationships during the time we've known each other and I've never felt jealous about her relationships. (We've each found that another fringe benefit of having a DamnGoodFriend of the opposite sex is that you can generally get a straight answer on relationship questions because neither of you is trying to get the other into or out of bed.)
And with her paying half the rent as long as we're rooming together, I'd hardly say I'm coming away empty-handed. (Read: "I got the dual overclocked Celeron not to save money, but because it was more fun to set up than buying the PII-450s!") I do wish she were into Quake, though. Pobody's nerfect.
I'll be the first to admit that my lifestyle certainly isn't for everyone. (Imagine me finding Ms. Right and having to explain my "roommate" to her. Wasn't there a 70s sitcom that had this as a plot device? :-)
The important point of my original posting, however - which got lost when I cluttered it with my example of an off-the-wall "solution" to the "lovelorn geek" problem - was really just to say that having no relationship is, at least for me, infinitely better than being in the wrong relationship.
what an absolutely refreshing take on the state
of modern relationships! it is always great to see someone write an article about how to treat another person as a human being (whether male or female).
i do have to admit though i'm half of a geek couple. it can and does work, but is much more difficult than being in a "normal" (non-geek)
relationship (which may mean the rewards can be greater). it's important to have no talk of work, software, or hardware in at least one room of the house and *absolutely* have one non-computer oriented night together. what helps the most though is that one person love to cook so you at least manage to feed your brains properly.
cheers to the author!
civilization is chaos taking a rest
Who, might I ask, are geek girls supposed to find a date with? Your "traditional" male is frightened of geek girls due to superiority/inferiority of intellect issues and now geek males have been informed that geek girls are undesirable.
I believe you're answer lies with the Weekly World News. ;-P
If you were a real "geek" you would be smart enough not to waste your time with relationships.
"All I have to do is jerk and all of you go away"
-Leisuretown
...I believe the greatest frustration about women for men who are used to dealing with Open Source software is that you cannot fix flaws you find in them....
Okay lets take this apart. First what is a "flaw" but a subjective evaluation. Lets try non-optimal code ( note, nature, including natural selection is inherently non optimal so no need to get upset ). Now why cant we all be open source? I am, I allow anyone to talk to me, and question me on what I think / believe, and when I come across something that seems more optimal, I change, and see if it is better for me. Most people who engage in this are "in therapy", I'm not, I've just taken it on as a way of life. It causes some interesting reactions, e.g. a date I had a couple of weeks back sat across the table and said and I quote "I can't believe you're so open, I'm amazed", if you can learn to a) articulate your thoughts and b) be open to change you can be an open source person, its not difficult, just takes practice, then you can appreciate other peoples points of view more and learn a great deal along the way, hope this helps.
Any sufficiently advanced man is indistinguishable from God
Two things before I type up the rest of this, just so you know where I'm coming from. One: I'm gay. Two: I don't claim to speak for all gay geeks.
Having said that, I can see where you're coming from... but you need to lay off. Would you like to know why they don't get any black/married/gay/man-hating-Lesbian-Avenger-asian -goth-perl-coders? Because they don't apply for the position.
Seriously. I've heard of companies who will hire the underqualified black man over the white man who's perfect for the job, just so they can be politically correct. You don't hear about it often, but it does happen. I found a quote once that nicely sums up how I feel about this. "Sometimes it's important to offend people."
Before you go around spouting the p-word (propaganda), think seriously about the issue at hand. Think about target audiences. You may as well ask why doesn't Playboy have articles geared towards lesbians, or why doesn't PC Gamer have articles on the latest console systems. Sure they may be of interest to some of the readers -- but it's not the target audience.
--
"I personal[ly] think Unix is "superior" because on LSD it tastes like Blue." -- jbarnett
This is one of the best posts to /. ever. I nominate the existence of a /. post Hall of Fame, and I nominate this to be entered into it. I see some criticisms of the article. They seem to fall into 2 categories. (1) that geek girls are good, too, and (2) this article doesn't apply to me. Dude, the article applies. If you are young and think it doesn't, then realize the speaker is older and experienced. Youth is good in technology obviously, but this isn't technology. Also, the speaker never addresses the possibility of geek girls, leaving that option viable. Regards.
I hope someone has the moderator points to knock you into next thursday...I wish I did...someone, please kill this nasty little troll...please...
--
"HORSE."
"HORSE."
-Flaming Carrot
This was a great post. It's nice to have a little personal stuff mixed in with all the tech stuff. A good balance. I think Rob should consider a BOOK DEAL. I know a lot of geeks who would appreciate it. I loved the computer analogies (HOWTO, Open Source, etc.)
I think some people missed the point though. This was not a "how to get laid" tutorial, but rather "how to have a MEANINGFUL long-lasting relationship". It's much more difficult to do the latter.
From my own experience I can attest that much of this advice is true. I have been happily-married for six years now, and I've been a geek the whole time, although not necessarily just with computers. I just recently graduated with my PhD in Applied Math from Northwestern, and it was no picnic. Sometimes I think the only thing that kept me sane was my "non-geek" wife.
It's eerie how much my own relationship mirrors what Rob described as a good match. The last thing in the world my wife cares to talk about is computers, but she respects my own passion for them. Also, she knows better than to disturb me when I'm in MY room, but when I come out, she's there waiting for me just the same (unless it's that time of the month. look out!). An old-fashioned girl is definitely the way to go. If she were any more liberated, we wouldn't have made it this far.
I prefer "fix some cookies and run a hot bath" myself ;)
... there's no show like Jerry Springer. Kansas, here I come! Cheers.
I don't think he was excluding the group of "geek girls", just that USUALLY a "geek girl" might not be a good match for a "geek boy". In my case that is definitely true. That's not to say there aren't exceptions (like in your case), just statistically speaking. Maybe a "geek girl" would be good for a "suit(ironed t-shirt)-guy". Of course, it does always come down to each person's individuality.
The last thing my wife wants to talk about with me is computers, but I find that refreshing. When I'm brain-fried, I love to get my mind off my normal work and think about dumb things. I suppose there are people who never get brain-fried, but I'm not one of them.
OK, excuse me while I dumb-down a little so I can blend back into the mortal world (I have to wrap some presents for my niece's b-day party). There's no show like Jerry Springer
I am sitting here thinking this more be a humorous response to the recently linked to article in WWN on how to avoid geeks. But perhaps it's not, and the conclusion is the same: if you think you already know what a nerdy/ugly/fat/geeky person is like and you avoid them as a rule of thumb then you're a victim of your own prejudice.
The more defined your dream woman is, the harder she is going to be to find and as your search for her you might realize that most people doesn't feel very good about being evaluated and judged. When she figures out you chose her for her looks/cooking skills/doormat like personality she'll reevaluate your relationship and probably leave you. Why should she love all of you if the only thing you love is all of you?
I am not saying that you should settle for second best. If a person's not right for you don't get married. If you want a pleaser go find a pleaser, if you want a pretty face then there's plenty out there. I am saying if you're shallow you relationship will be too.
Most people see relationships as a two-way thing, i e: don't ask what your partner can do for you, but what you can do for each other.
One last thing: why should a woman be less picky? What is it about you she'll like? What is in it for her when she runs your bath, and rubs your shoulders?
Personally I hate doing dishes; I hate waiting on people. I will not cook anyone's meal. I am not Florence Nightingale, as much as I admire her I don't see myself as an unselfish giver. I want to make money. I like my job. I like to work hard. After a day's work we'd have to take care of each other as bast as we can, and if our home looks like a rat hole because none of us have the strength to clean it up then so be it. I am sure as hell not going to do it on my own, and I wouldn't expect you to do it either.
Sattinger's Law: It works better if you plug it in.
I suppose I come from a slightly different perspective; all of my friends are girls (well, 90% of them anyway). It's been that way since I was 6. I think it's mostly because a) I really am a nice guy and b) it's alot easier to tolerate behaviour that you don't agree with in someone of the opposite sex (subconsicously, you feel behaviours from same sex friends are projected upon you from outsiders and so on . . . ) So naturally, I seek out geek girls, just to have something to relate to. Sure, opposites attract, but if you don't share ANY interests, then it gets real boring real quick.
;-)
I've had very few relationships in my life. Most of them failed, but not because of anything I did (shallow girls who weren't happy with who I am). My current relationship IS working out. And yes, it started out as friends. And yes, she's a geek, and VERY attractive. Oh, and like myself she's also a musician. There's always something we like doing that we can do together.
My advice? Don't look for a girlfriend, look for a friend. And have high standards. There's nothing wrong with liking yourself, and one day you WILL meet someone who you feel you "deserve". You'll spend alot of time lonely, but it will be worth it. And most importantly, be happy being single. You don't NEED a girlfriend. Once you accept that, you'll be more relaxed and prepared, and won't be so urgent and needy when the situation arises.
Of course, to make new friends you do need to occasionally leave the house. Unfortunately for me, the one day I do per month is not the one day the geeks around here do
Bad things often happen to good people,
It is up to them to see that they remain good.
I realize that this article was tagged as "humor" but come on, cut us some slack here! I don't need a woman to cook my meals, rub my shoulders, or run my bathwater. I'm an adult, thank you, I can do all of those things myself. This article makes me think that all geeks are supposed to want a surrogate mother instead of a girlfriend. Maybe insecure guys do; I don't!
I'm far from politically correct, but I think if I was a female Slashdot reader I'd be more than a little bit offended by this article.
Some simple advice that works wonders:
1. Find someone with common interests. This is very important over the long haul because you'll have more stuff to do together, talk about, etc. If you don't have anything in common it probably won't last because someone will get bored. I'd rather be with someone that I can talk geeky stuff with.
2. Don't be taken in by appearances. I do agree with that part of the article. And no, you shouldn't treat women as walking sex objects!
3. Be yourself!!! Let that be your mantra! If you accept who you are others will too. If you try to be someone that you are not, than any following relationships will be based on dishonesty and that WILL leads to disaster. Don't play games.
This works well for me. But, if you are a guy and you let your penis or testosterone level run your life, maybe it won't!
But, seriously, there's a bunch of stereotypes in the article (male and female), and for good reason.
They're usually true.
Sorry.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, you're different, and so am I, but 99% of people are normal stupid people. They're all individuals, like everyone else (I'm not!).
Take, for instance, my experiences last night. It was a rave-type thing, I suppose, but this presented several problems:
I don't dance (well, it's because i dance badly).
I am engaged.
It's been too long since I've seen my S.O.
I have trouble with platonic friendships, so even that was out of the question.
All and all, this led to some rather interesting things last night, but the most relevent one here is I watched a LOT of people.
No-one went after the women I found attractive (and I could tell other men/women [what did you expect, a homogenious hetrosexual event?] did agree with me on the attractive part).
Awww.
I don't know why I feel this is relevent. But stereotypes exist for reasons. We'd go insane if it wasn't for the catigorization that we do. I'm not saying that it doesn't suck when we apply it to groups of people, but those feelings are there because of experiences (skewed or not).
Okay, I'm sorry if that didn't make any sense whatsoever.
Dan
This is plain old FUD, ther can't be more to life than computers, NO WAY!!! :-)
---
Men, eh? Why do we bother? Is it just so as to subtly compete with our non-geekette sisters as to who can hook the best earner? Is it the fascinating conversation on the topic of security issues in TCP/IP? Or is it the wild sex?
(OK, so maybe we're getting somewhere with that last point...)
Well, no-one said that men don't have their problems. But here's a secret: as long as you aren't trying to change anything really basic about them, they CAN be trained. A good rule in life is ... don't go out with someone because you like your concept of what he could be. Go out with people you like right now, and don't give up because you can't deal with minor behavioural issues -- some failings (such as lack of cooking ability, dress sense, desire to wake you up at 4am to talk about Java beans) can be trained out.
The best advice I was ever given on dating was 'stick to guys you actually want to talk to -- that way, even if you don't fancy each other at all, the evening will not be wasted.' Actually, talking is generally a good idea.
Geek guys (in my experience) are almost always more interested in talking about detailed techie issues than you will be. Even if you have a PhD in CompSci and 10 years harcore hacking experience, they will be more interested in discussing it in their off-hours than you will. Moving the conversation on to something you are more interested in (such as new gadgets, games, or what's on at the cinema) is a learned art. If all else fails, make sure he spends time chatting to male geek friends -- it will help him to get it out of his system and he'll feel less stifled when you keep trying to change the subject.
1. Men are not good at multi-tasking /might/ be).
Grrls, if your guy is totally immersed in one activity, let him get on with it. Don't interrupt that important TV program, or late-night coding session with anything less critical than "Darling, the world's about to end!" (although food is usually acceptable, and sex
2. Men are usually pretty direct when they are trying to insult you
Don't waste your time trying to read millions of details into his every word. The chances are that if he thinks you are fat, he'll just say so. If he thinks you are boring, he'll get glazed or pick up a computer magazine.
3. Men like to be flattered /just fine/ when you tell them how much you like them, and enjoy having them around.
Well, don't we all? But it's fairly easy to get your loved one to buy you small tokens of appreciations (such as a DVD ROM drive, or a palmpilot) if you bear this in mind. They especially like to be flattered about prowess in bed, but it NEVER hurts to tell your loved one 'I really missed you last night when you weren't here' -- especially if it's true. Don't believe all the crap you read about men not being interesting in this soppy romantic stuff. They like it
4. Real Men aren't afraid of intelligent debate ... don't feel that you have to agree with your geek guy all the time. Especially if his political stance is wildly underinformed. There's a difference between politely exchanging informed views and getting into a headlock. Most of the geeks I've known have been quite interested in assimilating new data (but expect people to be picky on you getting your facts right). Don't bite back your most deeply held ideals just in order to agree with him. If it's something you believe in, let him know!
Isn't that the truth? So OK, if you happen to be well-read, or know a lot about history
(Would be more but I'm out of steam)
La Fiend
Coding is best done alone. Breeding is best done in pairs. Never try to put the two together.
Except when you are working with genetic algorithms.
---
END OF LINE
use dvorak then :)
:)
aoeui instead of yuiop for the confusing letters
OFTC: By the community, for the community
No. I have had two successful relationships with geek females. One unsuccessful relationship with a non-geek, and that's my sum total. I have no patience for stupid people (arrogantly assuming i'm not dense) and as such, geek girls are perfect matches for me.
Separation only by distance with no end in sight to the separation is all that killed my most recent relationship.
OFTC: By the community, for the community
Moderation Totals:Flamebait=3, Insightful=5, Interesting=2, Funny=1, Overrated=2, Total=13.
:)
we're not controversial(sp?) now are we?
OFTC: By the community, for the community
It was good while it lasted, but we eventually drifted apart. As do most early high school relationships. We were together a good while though.
OFTC: By the community, for the community
I think part of it can be compared to a couple who are both doctors. If one comes home, and the spouse asks "How was your day?", would you really want them telling you they would've done a different procedure, or made a different diagnosis?
Don't get me wrong... sometimes it's great to have someone who does understand your work/hobby. Other times though, it just leads to friction and problems. I suppose it depends on the individual.
So I agree with you, don't exclude all geeks from your dating, but it's something to be a little wary of until you find out how it's going to work.
But I wasn't like that. I can truthfully say that I've only drooled a bit over two "poster boys" in my life. I didn't really think any of the guys at my HS looked good at all. I DID drool a bit over men who were intelligent and treated me with respect, which means a few geekish-almost guys in HS -- and three of my teachers. Now, in college, yes, I did enjoy that I got more attention, but I did NOT get drunk, EVER, and I was NOT promiscuous. I've found a man who is smart and sweet, and I'm sticking with him.
WE'RE NOT ALL LIKE THAT. I hate to bring up the "Jessica" from Roblimo's post, but we did exist, we girls who weren't like the girls in your list. And yet we fade into the background.
I suppose most, MOST, of the fellas at my HS were like the girls in your list. But it doesn't have to be that way.
My sister told me that college would be my reward for getting through high school. Maybe she was right. But whether you're in HS or college, I sure hope that there is at least one person of the opposite sex who is not as asinine as the people presented in your list.
Ceterum censeo Microsoftam esse delendam.
Ceterum censeo Microsoftam esse delendam.
Plagiarize!
Plagiarize,
Let no one else's work evade your eyes,
Remember why the good Lord made your eyes,
So don't shade your eyes,
But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize -
Only be sure always to call it please 'research'."
I'm sure it's a quite popular quote. Maybe Plato said it.
Ceterum censeo Microsoftam esse delendam.
Ceterum censeo Microsoftam esse delendam.
Check the Jargon File entry: "[from archaic English verb for `shudder', as with fear]"
..."The grue was originated in the game Zork (Dave Lebling took the name from Jack Vance's "Dying Earth" fantasies) and used in several other Infocom games as a hint that you should perhaps look for a lamp, torch or some type of light source. Wandering into a dark area would cause the game to prompt you, "It is very dark. If you continue you are likely to be eaten by a grue." If you failed to locate a light source within the next couple of moves this would indeed be the case. ..."
Ceterum censeo Microsoftam esse delendam.
You're right. I was wrong. That probably was what he was doing. That was kinda stupid of me. ;-)
Humor driver.
Ceterum censeo Microsoftam esse delendam.
You're right. I should have seen that that was what he was doing.
Still, the objectification implications were kinda rude.
Ceterum censeo Microsoftam esse delendam.
Geek girls are incapable of being loving and considerate, and unloving and inconsiderate geek guys have to avoid that.
I disagree. Most of the geek girls I know are pretty emotional / loving.
The ideal woman is one who selflessly meets your every needs.
Agreed.
The proper role for the woman is that of handservant, who considers running your bathwater to be part of a "mutually beneficial" relationship.
Agreed.
One way to evaluate a woman is to take off her clothes and makeup.
One way, but not necessarily the best way.
In bars, the females that are unattainable are called "women" while the ones that you are supposed to go after are called "girls".
Disagreed.
If a woman finds you unattractive, dump her as quickly as possible.
If she has a problem with it, yes. If she's ok with it, no.
Grown breasts are worth waiting for.
Only if you think she has great potential.
Be nice to geeky looking girls, just in case they grow up and look good.
I would say be nice to any girls that aren't bitches, regardless of physical appearance.
In spite of all of the above, imperfections are to be overlooked.
Most, but not all.
All women are looking for a man to fill the empty void in their lives.
Some, but not all.
If you're not having any success, find someone like Roblimo, considers himself an expert at picking up chix and is ready to dispense a handful of advice because he has a pleasant and apparently subservient wife who meets his needs.
Agreed.
I am a little sexist. I'm also a lot sarcastic.
Am I the only one here who has had a positive experience with a "geek" girl? I find that extrordinarily strange, and almost disturbing. I had to deal with more than my share of the usual geek shyness when I was young, worse than most in fact, because I started programming when I was only 5, and grew up in a small outport town... Then, somehow, I miraculously found somebody who was almost as obsessed with computers as me. Compete? Nah, the solution to that is TO GET A DAMN SECOND COMPUTER, and NETWORK them. Since I had all the above, we actually collaborated rather well. The trick is to NOT engage in a "battle of the sexes" but just to act like normal hackers coding up a storm. It especially helps if the computers are all in the bedroom ;) And somebody who has been so badly isolated throughout life, if they can open up, tends to be the most loving people you will ever meet. Especially if you have the same experience. Anyways, that relationship had no immediate end in sight, but I went back to university... Still, at the current rate, we'll get back together after I graduate. Anyways, I've rambled... But still, am I the ONLY one around here with a positive experience in the "geek" circle?
"I believe the greatest frustration about women for men who are used to dealing with Open Source software is that you cannot fix flaws you find in them. You pretty much have no choice but to take them the way they are. For example, my wife likes to redecorate frequently, which sometimes annoys me, but I've learned to shrug my shoulders and call this part of her personality a feature, not a bug, and to accept it with the same good grace with which I accept a certain respected coworker's unique approach to the English language. "
;)
*GASP*!
He is relabeling bugs as "features"! He isn't working with his wife to fix "bugs"! BLASPHEMY! BURN THE HERETIC!
--Tibs
"If it is broken, fix it. If it is fixed, improve upon it. This becomes one helluva cycle."
Best observation I have for other programmers is GET INTO A SPORT- you'll live longer, feel better and meet tight women who wear tight clothes :)
Seriously, I'm into biking and suspect other sw types would be as well. You can do it alone if you want or in groups. It's really exhilarating. I do the road thing but mountain bikes are cool also. You get into a lot of conversations with women in a non-pressured atmosphere and when it comes time- they really love the shaved leg thing.
...a blow job after a long day in the office is a good thing, although I'd suggest going with the shoulder rub first. :)
Keep in mind, the assumptions made in the article are towards the men and their habits, not the women. So breathe.
...and only 150 or so on Legos. BREATHE, people, and search for that which complements onesself.
You forgot flowers.
Yes they really do work
Don't use roses too quickly, but use fun flowers after a while, do it when she is having a rough day.
And the humans created thing so complex that even sendmail can appear as too simple compaired by that things.
But no human being can create a woman... Did you?
--- Sueños del Sur - a webcomic about four young siblings
Rob wrote (in part):
"We need what are now called "old fashioned girls" who don't mind cooking our meals, rubbing our sore shoulders, and running our bath water for us."
Byte me, Rob. What you want is a slave who's dumber than you. I'm a geek girl with a real life AND real talents who dates guys who don't feel threatened by me.
What kind of crap sexist advice is this anyway?
My two cents as a Geek Female:
Most of this is reasonably on target, but also blindingly obvious. Of course one shouldn't go after an airbrushed model, nor any other woman that society places on a pedestal because of her looks. We are not objects of worship, nor do we wish to be identified for the prestige we bring you by our looks. Image is only that, and makes no guarantee of compatibility. As a woman who fits many of the social ideals for physical attractiveness, I grow tired of being pursued by men who think it will boost their self esteem to have me, a trophy girlfried, on their arm. I made that mistake once-- I dated a model who was absolutely gorgeous and quite sweet, but completely uncompatible because I was in it ultimately for the prestige points. And, of course, one should not be outwarldly rude or scornful to women who are not attractive-- it's uncivilized and speaks ill of one.
I'd say you really missed the boat in recommending that Geek Females not be pursued. Who will understand you better than one of us? Who other than us will sympathize more with your love for sexy technologies, for the trancendental mindset of coding binges? We will not grow jealous of your work, because it is our work also, and by the same token, we are not inherently in competition with you. We can seperate our work from your work.
Of course, romantic involvement is a matter of personal taste. I've dated Geek Men, Non-Geek Men, and Non-Geek Women, and objectively I'd say that nerds make the all-around best partners. Maybe it's because they appreciate romantic involvement more, maybe it's because they're often closet sensualists, but mostly I think it's that they don't get jealous of the time and energy I put into my work. If you want someone who will do your laundry and cook for you, listen sweetly while you talk about your day at work but not understand a word of it, then so be it. To me, thought, that's not an equal partnership, and anything less than an equal partnership is not worth my time.
---- I'm going to lead you kicking and screaming, giggling and laughing into the future.
I never believed in fate, or love at first sight, or any of that bullshit...
Well.
All I can say is - keep your eyes open, and don't be surprised if one fine day your life just flips upside down, knocks you out of a relationship that's not too great for you, and right into the soulmate you'd never met before....
This stuff does happen.
Oh. And yes. Do keep your eyes -open-, which means you look for what a person -is-, and not what they look like.
my dad does all that stuff, all that means is that he's whipped. sure it keeps them around, but it's not worth it...trust me.
I hope mentioning your wife's "imperfections" doesn't get you into serious trouble - I've head stories about that sort of thing - though I guess being a non-geek, she probably doesn't read Slashdot (Another plus for non-geeks: you can write about them on /.! :)
I thought I'd try anyway. In particular, I'm curious how other /. types feel about this aspect of our society that requires you to misrepresent yourself in order to let people "find out who you really are." I've gone back and forth about whether or not this constitutes outright deception, or just putting your best foot forward.
So which is it?
Can your IM do this?
What is this doing here..? I mean, how many of us really want to read this kind of patronising, saccharine, gooey guff ? I keep getting deeply unpleasant mental images of rob setting a collective slashdot (is there a word for that?) on his knee, and with a glint in his eye
That in itself wouldn't be so bad, if it weren't for some of the truly pathetic stories which accumulate in the comments, which plumb even lower depths of self-absorbed, slushy platitude than even robs post.
Add to this the wholly unwelcome firefight from the PC police... first of all, can I strongly suggest that you all take time to realise the subtleties of the english language, particularly such phenomena as jokes, sarcasm, and irony. It will reap you no end of reward, and you'll even find yourself able to follow British comedies. Marvellous. anyways, aside from what was pretty obviously a joke at the start, the PC brigade would doubtless whine that there is evidence of sexism elsewhere, etc, etc.
Well, if you look hard enough, then there is. But then these are probably the same sorts of people who would whine if you had a goto in your code which could be avoided with fifteen extra lines and about 5 different flags. Can I really be arsed carefully phrasing my words to ensure no hint of bias could possibly, rightly or wrongly, be inferred from my statement ? I think not.
That said, watching "romantic" types and the politically correct trying to sanitise physical attraction to their own ends can be endlessly funny. one talks as if all events, qualities physical and mental, surroundings, and forces converge at some objective aesthetic pinnacle... the other tries to sanitise it completely, vainly attempting to suppress anything so prejudiced as base physical attraction. Dispel any hopes for a quick synthesis, this'll be a long one.
NP
(Irritable, cynical, and bent as a hinge)
Can you sum it up in a word? *No.* In a noise? *Whuuuurghhhhh!*
I can identify. Being introverted and more then bit shy I have always found it extremely difficult to meet new people and to begin relationships. It usually takes me quite a while to warm up to people enough to relax and feel comfortable enough to actually be myself. Once I get to this point with people they actually realize that I'm not some one-dimensional techno-weenie, but a fairly well rounded person with a level head on his shoulders and a lot of too offer people. But few people ever give you the chance to get to this point!
Its always good to know there are other people in the same boat as me. Even though at an intellectual level you know you're not unique in the universe it's damn hard on emotional level to not feel isolated and kind of freakish!
At the age of 28 I'd kind of given up the notion of finding someone compatible enough to build any kind of happy long-term relationship with. Reading this makes me think otherwise! Thanx very much for that!
Oops forgot (hey it is 4:00am)if you'd like to drop a line my e-mail is: aodatd@yahoo.com
Anyway, I chose to be one of those 'computer guys' early on in high school. To get the grades I needed for college I worked hard in school and didn't have much of a social life (other than drinking beer & watching hockey or anime with the guys).
When I finally got to college it was nothing but work (for me at least, but then, I got a good diploma now didn't I). It seemed like the single girls had no time at all for me and the only ones who ever wanted to talk were the married ones (something that still happens to this day).
Now I'm out int (see I cant even type "in" anymore) the world of work and making money you'd think I'd have time for a relationship. Well, lets see, I've been conditioning myself since 1994 to be antisocial, half the time I spend not working is spent doing research for working. Everyone but me is connected already (if you know what I mean) and I am left alone to rot with my books and my computer.
So where am I going with this? To be honest I don't know. I'm a sensitive hard working human who never gets a break when it comes to girls. I'm 22 and life (what life) sux.
Thank you for reading this rant (if you got this far), if you are wondering what I look like (once I was told I look like an 'ogre' you can check me out at my website).
crazy dynamite monkey
I have a few observations and points to add to this whole discussion.
:) )
1. Guys, you have to go out, but more importantly, you must WANT to be out! Have fun. People do not like to be around people that aren't enjoying themselves.
2. Be confident. This may be difficult at first. Believe me, this isn't that big of a deal. I would guesstimate that 80% of most women will not blow you off. If they do, you may be in an environment that is not for you. (see #1. Like Roblimo says, smile, and use a slight touch to see if she is comfortable around you. If she tousches you back, you're in luck.
3. Pay attention. I know that I have a tendency to monopolize a conversation and then realize that the other person didn't add to the conversation because I didn't let them! Ask questions, and remember, be at ease. This isn't the time to get nervous.
4. Don't judge a book by it's cover. I have standards that I ususlly won't compromise, BUT like the article says, the people to pay attention to are the people that are not talking to anyone else (duh!). If you see a Woman dancing by herself, she will probably dance with you, even if it is only for fun. If you come on too strong, Women will OFTEN blow you out of the water. This is kind of a situation you have to watch and see what the person is doing. Many times Women that go out in packs only want a "girls night out".
5. The total opposite of that is the situation where a Woman WANTS an aggressive guy to dance with, and approach her. In this case, go for it. She will probably look back at you (if you approach form the rear), and dance with you. This does not give you the right to take liberties and do dumb shit like smack her ass or grab her else where. You can tell VERY quickly how far she wants you to go. In my experience, the Women will actually take your hands and put em where they want em. Sometimes you won't believe where they put em'.
6. Read the body language. If you have gotten this far, and are dancing closely with a woman, be strong, not abusive. In my opinion, women still like men to be men, but responsive the her needs.
7. Follow up! When you are done dancing, Talk to her! Actually, you could try to talk to her a LITTLE while dancing. Many times with this kills the mood. Buy her something to drink. Find a common ground. Listen. Compliment. Do not use dumb ass pickup lines. Smile. Be calm, and dance again!
8. Get the email address (or phone #)! The last thing is to pull her to the side, and talk again. prepare for the future! The easiest "line" to get her to give you the #? easy "Hey, how can I reach you in the future?" or something like that. easy.
9. Do not comare her to a computer in your mind, because she's not like a computer you've ever met.
Now your mileage WILL vary. I live in the Northeast, in NJ. I live near the shore, and went to college 10 mins. from NYC. I am in a fraternity. I HAVE partied alot, and am probably not your average geek, BUT around here, the above is usually how it goes. (NO NJ JOKES PLEASE
Have a good time. The chase is the fun part.
Oh yeah. Once you actually meet her, it is different to keep her. I would actually venture to agree that it is harder to keep a girlfriend that to meet one.
Why are there 4 of the same "Women..." polls..
Did everyone just randomly choose one, and it happened to become a popular one?
Am I seeing quadroople?
Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
Find someone who you respect but don't feel compelled to compete with. If you're not artistically inclined, try to catch yourself a Nitrozac. If you are, then maybe Cmdr Taco is more your speed (w/ apologies to his coffee-cup art projects). You *don't* necessarily want to find someone just like you. Find someone who can be as passionate explaining just what it is they do as you are, explaining what it is that *you* do. I can almost guarantee that someone "just like you" will also have the same troubles at the same times you do --- when what you really want is someone who's strong when you're weak, and vice-versa.
[Not to say you can't be friends --- good friends, even --- with folk "just like you"; just try not to expect them to be *different* than you when you're feeling low.]
Discussion and flaming welcome...
[
Reading this article as well as some of the grossly underaged comments that follow a few things come to mind. ... it doesn't matter who your other is, treating them with respect does. ..... GET A NEW PARTNER! If you need to buy love it's cheaper in the red light district. (and they at least know when to go home)
The rules for finding a life partner are the same regardless of your sexual persuasion. I have a wife and one of my best friends has a "life partner" duh
Sex is easy love is hard. The secret to getting laid is not trying to get laid. Seriously, if you're constantly trying to fsck her, all of her defenses are up and in place. Even he she wants t fsck you! It's automatic on her part. Try to make a friend, smile, make her laugh, be a gentlemen. That "Makin Bacon" T-shirt may be all the rage in the cyber cafe but not with her.
Don't try to prove your smart. If you are she'll/he'll know, nothing is more boring than a know it all. So don't, you might find out that she/he can teach you a lot about what she/he knows.
Her/His favorite subject is themselves just as yours is you. Talk about that for a while.
If you want to be listened too, learn to listen.
There is no "one person for me" If you think about it there is a one type of person, but not one person for anyone.
Love and passion get you through the honeymoon. Affection lasts a lifetime (old Sicilian proverb or at least I learned this from an old Sicilian)
Gifts for no reason are great but if your partner seems to only respond when you buy them a gift
If he/she splits on you.... so what! Analyze and correct your mistakes, get off your duff and try again. 24 hours is mourning, 48 hrs is boring.
Be on time, Being late says you don't care. Buy a freaking watch.
Don't judge the book by it's cover, in short you'll be amazed what you find under some of those ugly clothes out there. I've been extremely suprised on a number of occasions.
Stop planning and just do it. News groups don't have the answers, chat rooms might be fun, but face to face is the only way it's gonna work, period.
Ok so much for my soap box but I guess this is a subject that can naturally get soapy Speaking of which I wonder if my wife needs a shower (hehe)
I'm sorry, I'm to tired to be witty at the moment so this message will have to do.
- Be yourself. Any relationship not founded on honesty is a shaky one. You can't build a house on a bad foundation, nor can you build a relationship on a bad truth.
- Look for commonalities. Chances are you will not want someone EXACTLY like you, nor will you always want a total oposite. In my experience (all 20 years), I've always liked someone who I could share some interests with, but who would challenge me with something new.
- Don't complicate things. Love and attraction are not rocket science. Sure, its a complex reaction between 2 people, but like chaos, takes simple things to make a big effect.
- Sex is NOT everything. This is my big deal. I am not trying to push some big Judeo-Christian morality code on anyone, but in a relationship, sex is NOT everything. The best moment in my life with my girlfriend so far is laying with her on the couch watching a movie. Don't get me wrong, some people are different in this respect, but for the most part, don't push it.
- You have to do what's right for you Don't stay with someone you're misrible with. If you aren't both happy in the relationship, then you may not be meant for each other.
Anyway, have fun and moderate the hell out of this. Questions always welcome at CmdrLatoni@aol.com. Spam me and taste my shoe.Dijital
Diji
"I came, I saw, I WTF'd!"
You see, I don't have a problem attracting women. I'm a fairly good looking, smart guy. Unfortunately, I (apparently) have a very unattractive personality, because after women get to know me, they don't like me. Very bad. So not all geeks don't get chicks because of physical problems or lack of coolness. Like normal people, some geeks are just jerks.
I couldn't think of a subject.
/. dedicated to this subject at all times - maybe a slashdot.love section.
/. - I cringe - knowing surely I will read something that will make me a touch irate - no matter how much I remind myself that some males are just so clueless. We need a subject heading for sure for female related topics so I can filter tham out - and not feel forced to post to defend my position.
This poll, and the corresponing article, appropriately labeled under the Monty Python Foot, seems to be a reoccuring theme at Slashdot and one that gets quite a few posts in response.
Mention geeks, girls, women, dating, girl geeks, and voila! Instant high traffic posting.
Although I must admit I post in response to many of these articles myself, it seems to be a theme that has popped up quite frequently, and each time - posting galore.
On the subject of dating, I feel sorry for those men who are having trouble meeting women, and I feel sorry for the geek girls who are having trouble with meeting men - perhaps if for each of these articles, there is one or two slashdotters that get up a bit of confidence and meet a member of whatever sex attracts them, maybe it is worth it.
One man I know who has never had trouble meeting women is my dad. From the days before he met my mom in university - when he met my mom he was dating 4 women and dropped them all for her - this was in 1969 - different world. To his single days after the divorce where my dad and I would be on our father daughter weekends - and women would approach him in droves, this man never had trouble meeting women.
What do I think attracts women to my dad - I don't know? He is an above average looking man, very intellegent, and very intellectual. He has a broad range of interests, and is a very friendly, laid back person.
My dad is not the type of person who focuses on the negative, he is not critical of others or himself.
I have inheritted my father's ability to attract, although I am more of a critical person than he is. So I know it is not that.
I personally think the way to attract people is simply to know that you do not need someone else to care for you, or to love you in order for your life to be good. Liking yourself is the most attractive characteristic to the sex you wish to attract.
Now we need a moritorium on subjects dealing with geeks and their love lives, or at least a section in
On the only option for a hetro woman for the poll, Sexism?? Really?? Here??? I don't find Slashdot sexist, personally, although some less experienced men may say things that may be misconstrued by a feminist as sexist from time to time. There are boys and men who don't understand the sensitivities in certain actions such as addressing women as humans. Perhaps these are the dateless ones.
Each time a female orientated subject comes on on
--
About what Rob wrote.
Hey Rob - let her use one of your many computers and type a response - tell her side of the story!
Also maybe a regular spot from a geek girl might be cool!
I am absolutely willing to take up the task myself as well. I am sure quite a few geek girls would like the job of being the inhouse Slashdot chick - unless it literally meant inhouse - and she had to live with the guys.
After all they might want backrubs, or thier bath run, or god forbid a hug!
The cookies might be possible, let me copy cookie-lib.pl - oh wait you meant the kind you can eat. Sorry - I don't have time to bake right now, I am posting to Slashdot.
--
Well, Rob, much as I agree with some of what you said (particularly "women are more complicated than computers"), in my experience the magic rules can be summed up fairly easily.
There are no magic rules.
This, of course, is for the edification of the lonely geek guys who didn't notice the foot logo and are poring desperately through the responses looking for some way to meet someone to play Quake with on Friday nights. To be fair, there may also be geek grrlz poring through this desperately trying to find out how to get him to do something besides Quake, or get better at it at least, but I digress.
I have had the amazing good fortune to have been married for six years to a lovely woman who shares many of my hobbies and interests (for the person who posted that you won't find a woman interested in RPG's, I will remember you with amusement during her Changeling game tonight. Again, I digress.) and, to this day I don't know why.
We are all unique individuals. There are no hard and fast rules for dealing with the opposite gender (well, besides Try not to spit but who knows, there may be someone out there who finds that attractive. Again, I digress) that will magically endow you with the ability to attract and keep your dream significant other. It won't happen easily. Instead of easy rules, there are hard choices. On the bright side, if somebody who is so fscked up about his past that after six years of marriage he still calls himself MoodyLoner can find someone, you can too.
No Longer a Menace to Society.
Alexandria Morrigan born 2/22/01 l. 20.5in wt. 7 lbs. 5 oz.
IT is good to read something that mirrors what a lot of us already know or may find out. I agree completely with your summation, and though some points may seem politically incorrect, the general body of the text is that which i myself feel now. It is ggod to feel that someone understands the touch but also the warm comfort of a girl who understands that people "who hack stuff/code/build/design/etc" walk two paths.
The text is also good because i have many friends who objectify and treat women as a trophy to be attained(both geeks and non-geeks), and they will not understand until they grow up, or get the courage to treat them and their emotions as important variables.
So I say thankyou, not for me as I feel that I am happy at the moment with my girl, but for those that need to be reminded that there is someone out there for each of us and we only need to open our hearts and to stop letting our minds get in the way.
I'm with ya on that point Skyshadow. Especially "Find someone who can and will drag your ass out of your chair every so often."
...and I think you deserve a little flamage for this one along with the kudos.
One of best things about my last relationship was the fact that she got me to do stuff I wouldn't usually go out of my way to do. I actually learned something from her. Sure it would have been nice if she cooked, cleaned, and ran my bathwater for me, but that's not enough to keep me interested any more than good looks.
Roblimo, I think your article is pretty cool overall. You're going to get flamed to a crisp for some of it
numb
?syntax error
The very last thing you can say to a new employer, is what you really want: to make good, good money. And the very last thing you can say to a woman you're trying to seduce, is what you really want: to get her in your bed.
I think of culture as the commonly accepted answers to these contradictions. Culture seems to be a set of standardised lies that you are expected to apply in well-defined situations.
Women emancipation has brought a number of new standardised lies, like: we want them to be equal to us; we will do the cooking too.
If I have to, I will apply the appropriate standardised lie to the pre-defined situation.
However, the more my disposable income grows, the less I seem to be inclined to do so. What's more, I need to do it less and less. In situations in which I used to accommodate, I tell people more often to f*ck off.
If there's one thing good about being a geek, it is that there's a lot of money in technology.
I am woman. I love computers. I think the article was nice, but I have to say something about that first paragraph.
I love computers. They take up a big part of my life. You can call me a geek. However, I love other things such as art, reading, languages, science, writing poetry, science, philosophy, Einstein.
Who says I am incapable of taking care of a lovely geek guy? I must know how because I have been dating the same computer geek for five years and I madly in love with him as him with me. I think that I am pretty, attractive, and plain. I am plain in the sense that I refuse to wear makeup. It is garbage that in the long run ruins your skin. And thanks to not having ever worn makeup my complication is wonderful.
I am bit hurt to hear that we should need to pamper men. Affection is something that is not a requirement. It is a natural giving to the one you love. Me and My boyfriend love each other deeply. We are best friends. We have times where neither of us requires affection. Sometimes just being around one another is enough.
We don't disturb one another while we are doing something else. We give each other equal space.
I will visit him when he is busy on the computer while he is doing his own thing just to be around him while I am doing something for myself.
Just because I am a geek doesn't mean I don't have time for my favorite guy.
I have taken care of him while he was sick risking myself to exposure. I have cooked for him because I wanted to be kind. He has done the same for me.
However, don't expect me to be this doting housewife with a permanent smile embossed on my lips.
I certainly don't think of the man as the breadwinner. People have to work together. Separatism only leads to frustration and sadness.
I work to provide for myself, and we share with one another benefits of knowledge, kindness, money, and time.
I am a very lucky woman. =)
Programmer
This article really got me thinking. It is probably why I am writing another comment.
Why does matter? You are who you are. However, I have read several opinions about this article that seem to claims something different.
Clothes are an extension for some people. However, some people don't care about how they dress for others. It could be what ever is comfortable to them, and they don't even have to match. Some people just put something on and go.
I already have a great fellow, but this is how this geekette rates guys for dating or relationship potential:
1. Personality -- Good Soul
--Intelligence
--Honesty
--Humble
--Confidence
--Willingness to give to others
--Natural affinity for caring
--Goofy Sense of Humor
--Appreciates nature
--Reliable
--Easy to talk to + some
2. Hygeine
--sticky armpits & feet acceptable
--any thing growing...not acceptable
--bad breath --- no way eck!
--limited clothing clothing stains
3. Smile
--How can you beat a warm fuzzy?
Programmer
Personally I've never had trouble with women, and therefore having never got into this kind of conversation, I would very much like someone to please tell me that guys who have trouble dont really talk like this!
--- Apparently I have an old
what the hell is this doing here? if i need some kind of help like this, i certainly will not come to slashdot! this is not what i come here for, besides the fact that it is poorly written and informs us of nothing insightful, not to mention how chauvinistic it is. please curb your useless "news" posts. if you really need to post some utter crap like this again, feel free to post it somewhere that is interested in crap like mTV or seventeen.com . do not insult us again with this offensive tripe.
Geek boys absolutely need geek girls. Who else is going to understand when geek boy (or girl, for that matter) goes on a weekend binge of programming or playing Age of Kings? Your "old-fashioned" (*gag*) girl is going to spend that weekend whining about how she wants to go out dancing and why doesn't he get off that damned computer and that he never pays attention to her.
:)
Geek boys and geek girls are made for one another. Geek girls are out there. Treat them like worthwhile human beings and they might even go out with you.
"During your times of trial and suffering, when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that I was riding the pogostick."
A good traveller has no fixed plans and is not intent on arriving.
I made that mistake of trying to understand and fix them, oh what a head trip. If they have serious family or emotion problems what ever you do don't get involved until they have seeked consiling and help them don't date them.
A few quick words of fore-warning: Taking the advice in this article could result in you resembling, either physically, emotionally, or both, Roblimo, which has been known to cause deep psychological problems. The shortest way out of that situation seems to be suicide or jail-time, where you can be Bubba the Axe-murder's "special friend", and lose all sense of self-conscience. Be wary.
Between Rob's fingers and your fingers, something was taken out of context. In your defence, I think it *was* Rob's fault.
:).
1. Yes, being able to tell my gf that I spent the day tweaking the Linux box at work is a good thing, especially if I get more than a smile and nod.
2. No, an in depth discussion about the port settings on my IP masquerading firewall is NOT good.
You see, there is a huge difference between being about to talk about what you love to do, and arguing about what you love to do. And the easiest way to get rid of the argument is to simply have one person know less (but not nothing) about the subject matter.
A relationship is also about balance; each person has strengths and weaknesses, and good relationships consist of partners with different strengths and weaknesses. If the strengths and weaknesses are the same, then the relationship will get nowhere beyond friendship, and we aren't talking about that
Coding is best done alone. Breeding is best done in pairs. Never try to put the two together.
Is this post not nifty? Sluggy Freelance. Worshi
I mean common, look at the picture of the guy, common
The Lopez
And yes, I apply this to myself. My wife and I are keeping an open mind about kids, even though it's not what we want now. Who knows... anything can happen. I just hate to see people who aren't willing to consider that.
Depends. People who eat too much of something one day til it makes them sick tend to hate that for life. Even if it was their favorite food.
Well watching super baby boomers run around with their heads cut off has made me more likely to adopt than add another one to the crowd.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Is there something wrong with a geek girl who works on her own projects and posts on Slashdot? I think not. Roblimo's saying that we shouldn't go for girls who maybe as smart or smarter than us.
And I think most of us already knew not to expect to have the chicks in Playboy before reading Roblimo's happy little article. I don't think /. readers want to hang around the cheerleaders, etc. They aren't smart enough for our tastes.
But I guess we can't all be 1337 chix0r magnets like Roblimo...
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
Here are my thoughts.
Get to know many girls. If you find one that you like a lot, spend more time with her. But don't get too serious about anyone just yet.
Also don't just try to bed everyone that you meet. It could backfire when the sweet one that you found finds out.
If you just relax and have fun you will find out that you had a wonderful college experience and you are comfortable enough with girls that you won't screw up saying hello to the one that counts.
Good luck.
female flirtation behavior, which might be endearing to a bi-punk-chick
Excellent, I'll keep that in mind. That's exactly my type of girl.
Rather than just agreeing with me because they don't understand what I'm talking about? Or pretending to listen because they don't even care? Or me having to make up something to talk about that they will care about? I rarely can talk about my day at work with a non-geek girl. Even when it's something simple, it would take too much explaining, and they won't appreciate it.
I like to talk to people, and I don't like repeating conversations. When you've both run out of stories from your life, all that's left is new ones from day to day. It helps to share enough interests that you can continue having good conversations.
I think it's typical, it's how I treat geek girls, and it's one of the reasons I like to be around them. You're the first I've heard complain, every other time I have heard a girl talk about how they're considered "just one of the guys", they consider it quite positive.
Don't think of it as being considered an oddity, or a guy in a woman's body. Think of it as being regarded as highly as a male could possibly think of a female.
Absolutely. On the other hand, as a 'geekgirl', I'm a bit of an oddity in that I dress up, wear makeup, etc. which leads people who first meet me to assume that I'm tech-illiterate.
I've read some of the other responses, which indicate other geekgirls who like that they're thought of as one of they guys. Yes, I like that too in that there's much less fakeness involved in my friendships with the guys. They don't try to impress me or avoid making the kinds of jokes they make with other guys, etc.
But! HELLO! I *am* female. I *am* interested in dating. And I'm picky - I pretty much only WANT to date the "geeks". Yet, they complain to me about not being able to find a girlfriend and it doesn't even seem to occur to them that here I am, very similar to they type of woman they're saying they're looking for. It's weird. It's irritating.
I agree with the original poster who "blames" some of the problem on being introverted, too. Oh well.
1. they'd be expensive. 2. they'd be unreliable. 3. they'd take over your environment. 4. they wouldnt let you do anything with your computer. 5. They'd be unreliable. 6. You could at least kill them with three fingers. 7. You'd upgrade every year, but the replacement would be just as bad.
-he who laughs last, is a bit slow.
journal
Yes yes! I think you've hit the mark. Last time it was the "How to keep nerds away" article and now this? I know relationship/love life is a huge part of people's lives but...it's something you *have* to learn on your own (not try to follow a HOW-TO on LOVE...unfortunately, this package doesn't come with a README)
I didn't like the article for the reason that I don't like articles that generalize (especially on "geeks" of any sex).
The Reality might surprise you.
There's a book somewhere in the middle of my "being read" stack (many books get added to the top, few ever get removed) called =Introducing Neuro-Linguistic Programming= by O'Connor & Seymour.
The authors agree; they say that if you watch people talking who are receptive to each other, they share the same posture, gestures, and level of eye-contact. They also say that you can CREATE rapport by intentionally matching your conversation partner's state & style of communication.
Check out the book, it's pretty interesting. Is it mind control? MMMMMmmmmmmaybe....
--
"Doctor Steve was a loving, caring man who wanted only the best for me. And to control my mind." -Oasis
-- you're never dead until you run out of quarters
Fair enough. As long as you give her plenty of practice she might (might) concede the point.
Being good at Quake is a surprisingly effective way to impress geek guys. With some of them it seems you've shattered their most fundamental prejudice against women - 'woman no Quake'.
With the others - they just appreciate a good game.
Either way, pretty damn fun way to make new friends.
How about being nice to guys, and letting them win? :)
Could happen... but my post was a guys' guide to what girls want. The guy wishlist didn't figure. I guess all relationships must be a compromise between the two... even maybe when it comes to Quake.
I guess Roblimo left "and find a woman who goes easy with nailguns/rocket launchers/BFGs" out of his feature.
Most guys could get a girl just from that description alone.
But for those of you who aren't convinced by Roblimo's argument about non-geek women, here is a specific guide to The Man a Geek Girl Wants:
I guess that's about it...
Not to mention the relative rarity of women who want nothing more than to nurture a geek.
:-) that male physicists tend to be married to a 'little woman' whose mission in life is assisting a great mind to know the universe without having to cook overly much. So if you do find Ms. Perfect Life Assistant, be prepared to fend off great scientists of all persuasions :)
Even humanities women might, you know, want to devote the tiniest bit of time to, you know, that violin concerto thing they're composing, or their thesis on Derrida (not me btw, I'm taking both a CS degree in CS/Maths and a humanities degree in philosophy, but I'm just too damn lazy to work at it...)
Margaret Wertheim pointed out in Pythagoras's Trousers (dead trees
And it's worse for women. Women in technical fields (doctors are the stereotypical example) tend to marry men in similar fields. Where are the men who are prepared to devote themselves to letting us acheive our potential without interacting with, you know, life or anything?
in both cases, I'd much rather use vi...
I'm surprised to see this here but I suppose I shouldn't. I'll add my two cents though- I met my wife despite my interest in computers. I was tooling around on a motorcycle and completing graduate study in the Humanities. She has no interest in computers beyond MS Office, WWW, email and Freecell and thinks the way I latch onto things- computers, history, math, literature, sports, politics- with such intense zeal is "cute". The point is that I was a pretty much whole individual with wide interests and comfortable with myself. She noticed.
Lonely geeks need to get out and do something other than computers. They need to cultivate more facets; to be a person that someone would want to have around, maybe invite to a party or take out somewhere.
In other words, get a life.
I just had to point that out, in the end, the link (cmdrtaco.net), Respected Coworker. Just place a dash, and you've got: Respected Cow-Orker!
DJ Eeeeeeeeeeasy Dick
Anyone have any good ideas for us younger people 13-15. Ive never dated anyone :( Trekkie
..though I'll admit that you're probably right that it should have been made a little more obvious by ``Roblammo'' over there, and there really is no substitute for good sense (that is, don't substitute sound thought and judgement with vacuous shots in the dark by so-called ``experts''). I can't really say how I feel about what I'd expect from people who tout moderation of posts, because I, for one, am a prime target for faulty moderation (and thus, I have mixed feelings, myself), along with everyone else who has broken the 60-70 point barrier. =P
~ Kish
Well I blame the lesbians, for turning all the cute, smart and interesting girls into lesbians. You know they have that lesbian raygun that will convert a girl, on pulse beam of that and the girl is carpet munching in no time. Ask any girl, they will say the same thing for Gay guys too!
This is a joke ppl! Anyways, i think there is some merit to the article. Biggest thing is that you have to look at where you are trying to meet these girls. At a game/network/computer conference, where the sexy girls are either their to troll the guys or if there is a cute one, well every pair of male hetro eyes are glued to her? There are tonnes of sexy women out there, at the bus stop, in grocery stores, at the bank, in the mall at coffee shops.. open you eyes to the possiblity.. You just have to get out, just put down the keyboard and walk away... you can do it, you won't die, honest!
now if i could just figure a way to approch them.
This article was overall pretty good, it pointed out quite a few things I already knew, but still clarified, and confirmed some suspicions/theories I had. I don't agree that there is a uniform assumption you can make for any woman (I don't believe in uniform assumptions of any person).
You can't say that all/any geek girl will act competitively towards you, there are different types of geek-girls, just as there are different types of geek guys (considerate, inconsiderate).
And another thing, I don't agree with the term 'geek', think about it; being a 'geek' would simply be someone obsessed in the field of computing, we don't have offensive names for people obsessed in the area of sports! And that's not to say the word 'geek' is even necesarily always used as an insult, if you like it, knock yourself out!
I have personally read many of these tpyes of articles, I find them to be pleasing/re-encouraging, but the feeling doesn't stick with me. In the end I'm back to where I started, so I conclude that you must find your own set of rules.
Now if I haven't offended too many people already with my above comments, I have a simple question;
How does the average girl (not a feminist, not an overly passive-type) feel about sexism or female favoratism?
I'm asking this because I truly believe in equality, but it seems that some of my friends can get away with being sexist at heart (male superiority), but when girls are around they try hard to not look sexist and sometimes still do, but the girls overlook this. They will complain about it (usually to me), and then the next day they're all over the guy again. This doesn't seem fair to me who is never sexist even when alone.
I don't know what to do, or if I'm simply over-reacting.
CrackerJc (grade 9 computer 'geek')
Im gay too and so far, I've had much better luck with gay geeks instead of non-geeks.
The way I look at it, the more important part of boyfriend (or girlfriend) is the friend part. For me, I have better friendships with geeks than non geeks. So, its no surprise that I do better with geeks.
Not sure how much of Roblimo's post is serious, but I felt like weighing in. Regardless of whether you're going to end up with a geek girlfriend or a less tech-obsessed girlfriend, having a decent romantic relationship -- a good relationship with anyone, really, whether a friend or a relative or a lover -- really only hinges on a couple of fundamentals:
They might sound a little cliched, but I sincerely believe that any little rules that can't be derived from those are either superfluous or just plain wrong.
Francis Hwang
Do domain names matter?
We all laugh at Dave Barry (and if you don't you've been at your crt too long), and this is nothing but the same.
I solved the problem of being lonely! I made a little dress fro my right hand, and little versions of a picnic setup, and other fun things. So I take my "date" on little mini dates, and there is usually a good chance that I will score! But sometimes I get her dress all messy.
raretshirts.com - cool vintage t-shirts
Awesome article, rules every geek should live by.
:)
I find myself saying "Why do the good guys lose out all the time?", but we all have to realize that the good guy only loses out until he finds a good girl. In high school the shorter, smarter, deeper guys often get screwed over in favor of the football players, but that only lasts until they find a short, deep girl of their own. I've got mine, and I'm not letting go! BTW, I too dated a shallow, large breasted hottie for 4 months this spring... Don't follow in my footsteps. Good lay, but a very expensive, headache causing, annoying, arrogant lay..
http://chrismetcalf.net
On a related note: Joelogon's Foolproof Guide to Making Any Woman Your Platonic Friend
Obviously, everyone has their own ideals about the opposite sex - personally, I've always been attracted to skinny geek boys with a CRT tan. Seriously! I'm sitting naked next to one right now, dually basking in the glow of our laptop screens. Nothing wrong with geeks seeking each other out - consider who you're surrounded by at work and at play - probably other geeks. Common interests are a great way to get to know someone... browsing through the networking books section of a local bookstore ain't a bad date. :)
:)
Point being, don't write off the possibility of finding love in unlikely places. Like the datacenter. Especially the datacenter. Mmmmn.
The entire dating scene is ugly and bad anyway.
Well, I just got to college. Should i concentrate on fulfilling my physical desires (with girls of course), or should I go out looking for that semi-perfect girl? Too many girls here either appear too stuck up or slutty for me or not ones i'd like to spend the night with.
MOO
There is some truth in this... My last girlfriend REALLY DID GET JEALOUS if I spent too much time in front of the computer :) It was mostly due to me working on cs assignments though, and I did find it kind of cute and of course took time away from the monitor every once in a while to give her a few hugs/kisses/whatever to try and show her that i appreciated her coming over and studying in my room while I was working on the latest networks assignment or whatever...
In some ways, I'd tend to agree. And indeed, my girlfriend is a techie. Ironically however, it wasn't until dating me that she became a techie and is now pursuing a career in Information Systems. I guess in hindsight then, I followed Uncle Robin's advice, but she turned into a geek anyway! :)
Sorta makes you wonder...
All generalizations are false (!), but when Roblimo starts making them he sounds like an irrelevant, sexist anachronism. Why this kind of shit belongs on /. is beyond me...
Nope, different universe, different "monster"... Drow are dark skinned elves who serve Lolth and turn into spider-beasts if they flunk a test. The grue is a large beast which lives its life in dark areas waiting for lamps to run out.
:-) I wonder what her view on this entire debacle would be, heh...
Anyone out there remember the Wishbringer book (based on the Infocom game I believe, or was it the other way around...) and Mary Sue Grue?
GPL: Free as in will
indeed it is posted under "humor." whaddya know? and here i thought he was serious.
/. operators should've looked at this more carefully. yes, it is posted under humor, but many people are not taking it as such (obviously). and i think they should have expected that. to post something that, truthfully, is this offensive on /. is asking for trouble. some people will take this advice to heart.
/. reader, i find it dangerous. i expect more from people who tout moderation of posts.
i think roblimo and the rest of the
as a woman, i find it offensive, yet i can see the humor in it. as a woman and a regular
I Hope all the people who have posted replies about how un-loved Debbie is are ashamed of themself's. I hope that it did not give the author too much hassle at home because it was a great post. If you are going to shoot me you better hit first time - ARL
Right on. I've known my now-girlfreind for about 4 years. We've only been an official couple for about 2 1/2 weeks. She isn't a computer geek (you better believe I am), but she respects my interest in it. We have always had a good time together as freinds and when a mutual freind kept trying to get us to "go out" (kind of a bad term, but it's widely used, so...) we got to talking about it. It turns out we're both exactly what the other wanted. It was worth having her for a freind for 4 years to be able to share what we do now. My point is, if you can't be happy with her as a freind, you probably can't be happy with her as more.
1. Make eye contact. 2. Treat her with respect. 3. Don't be a jerk. 4. Be yourself (unless you're a jerk - see #3) 5. Listen. 6. Have fun.
No sig? Sigh...
Obviously your [male?] cow-orkers were your
.bat files were sorta like shell scripts
typical patronising MS loving, football playing
jerks...
If they had at all used *nix, they would have told
you that
on unix, only far inferior...
;)
(This had better be moderated as flamebait...)
Today my wife was so pleased that that I was slaving away in the kitchen cooking her dinner..but then she noticed that every song I had playing in the background was by a different band. Then she noticed the wires coming out of the cupboard. And then the PSU. Oh dear....I was rumbled...she was about to discover that I wasn't playing it from the CD player but from a shell script playing a randomised sequence of mp3's from my laptop discreetly hidden in a cupboard. "Can't I get you away from that damned computer...if only you spent all that time on me...!!!" Trying to explain that it's no different from a CD player which probably has some microcontroller in it anyway was to no avail. It's not easy being a married geek. Ho hum... at least the food came out nice. Yum!
-- SIGFPE
I definitely have a preference for breast size - I won't mention what it is. But my favorite breasts are my wife's. Not because they're large, medium, or small, but because they're HERS. Take hers and put them on someone else, and in the long run they're not interesting to me.
I would agree with your sentiment. For myself. I realize that others might and generally do think differently. Then again, liking just your partner is a different situation than being single and looking for a partner. Different rules apply.
The point is that, if we're thinking, feeling people, we look beyond the superficial and fall in love with the REAL PERSON. We value who they are, and what they look like becomes less and less important, only important in that it is a part of them.
The key is that "if". Not all people are like that. Nor do they want to be. If two people are happy with each other and choose to stay at a superficial level then who are we to say that they are wrong for having different standards than us?
Also,all relationships start out at a superficial level. No one can look beyond the superficial until they've spent the years getting to know the "REAL PERSON". That "getting to know" takes a lot of open and very honest communication. So what is the problem with liking certain parts of a person and then making the effort to know more?
Plus, why is it better to like one part of a person, such as their brain, and not another part of a person, such as their body? Some people are proud of those aspects of themselves. Should we blanket-dismiss certain things or should we appreciate what we like about a person, appreciate what they like and learn more about each other? Don't we have to start somewhere?
Believe me, I'm not offended by Robin's preferences. I'm offended that he considers them so important that, in an essay on what to look for in a relationship, he made them the subject of over half of what he wrote. And in that particular case, he was basically saying that you should be nice to the ugly, not because you should be nice in general, but because they might someday be good-looking. His reasoning follows that if you knew in advance that they'd still be ugly in ten years, you'd have no reason to be nice to them.
I don't follow that reasoning at all. What I see Roblimo confessing is that he looked at someone on a superficial level and didn't bother to learn the "REAL PERSON". Because of that mistake he lost out on being involved with someone that would have interested him if he had been a bit more aware himself.
I got news for ya. In the long run, we're ALL ugly. In 10 years, 20 years, 30 years YOU will be the ugly one. After 20 years of gravity and infant feeding, those breasts won't be so pretty. If we're lucky, the majority of our lives will not be spent looking young and beautiful. If we're wise, those ugly years will still be meaningful, and we will not spend our time pining for the beautiful days.
That's old news to me. :) My son is in school and my partner's (who is older than me) son is in university. The amusing thing (maybe news for you) is that breasts are still neat at any age, even if they've sagged or been baby chewed. You see, to me beauty has nothing to do with age and everything to do with the person.
Not only have I been on a college campus and met those women, I've seen the result of those sorts of marriages in the long term. The current film "American Beauty" sums those marriages up extremely well -- full of empty accomplishments, missing most of what's really important in life.
That depends on who you talk to. I know a number of women that are quite happy with their "MRS". They willingly chose that option with their eyes open. Are they to be dismissed as stupid simply because they chose to follow their bodies with their minds and lives?
To say that husband-hunting is the result of _basic biology_ -- that's even more offensive than Roblimo, who simply took his personal preferences and assumptions about the world and applied them to everyone. To you, the MRS women aren't merely trying to satisfy a societal preference, they're hard-wired to do so. Doesn't it bother you that that very thinking has been used to excuse the very worst of all human behaviors in history?
Sorry, but husband hunting is a basic fact of biology. Just as is the tendency of males to want to impregnate as many females as possible. The procreation instinct is the strongest survival instinct there is. (An interesting book to read on the subject is Sperm Wars by Robin Baker.) If it wasn't humanity wouldn't exist today. The fact that we are hard-wired to procreate is no more a cause of anguish than it is that we only see in a certain part of the electromagnetic spectrum. Actually, knowing how our bodies do really work gives us a better chance to make wise choices.
Anyway, the fact that certain thinking has been misused doesn't mean that the thinking is wrong. If misuse destroyed the worth of an idea then things like freedom, democracy, equal rights, etc. would not be creditable instead of having such power these days.
"All the darkness in the world can not quench the light of one small candle."
Two bugs actually. ;) ;)). The side effect is that I close to never leave the office. ;) So, s/increase/decrease/g might be a good thing in the HOWTO...
;)
First of all - "To increase odds - have fun" definitely doesn't work - I'm having fun 24 hours a day, 7 days a week (hacking Linux, of course
The second bug is that NC is not the only RH office... Going to Chapel Hill on a Friday would be rather expensive from the various parts of RH Europe.
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
There's a bug in your HOWTO - it assumes you actually know people who might be interested and you can choose. ;) ;)
There's no such thing as "free tours for female singles through the Red Hat development offices so we can talk to them"...
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
*laughing* I should have KNOWN not to put up a URL to a site that has my picture. You all realize, of course, that by pursuing a geek chick you're violating the first rule... Marissa
I thought the original point was that geek girls are bad for geek guys, which makes a lot of sense to me. I don't think it's ideal for anyone to go out with someone who shares an obsession as deep as geekism sometimes gets. It's always a breath of fresh air to talk about something _else_ for once! I'm sure the same applies for geek girls, nobody's being sexist. Well I don't think they are anyway.
Yep. In most cases I'm quite glad... The solution for me: I met my (geek) guy while pursuing a completely different interest, not quite so gender biased. Trying this approach tends to weed out those geeks who are TOO obsessed for their own (and your) good. If you care.
The guys I know quickly learned that, just like anyone else, there is stuff I can teach them and stuff they can teach me. So they respect that and don't seem to have a problem asking me for help, or conversely, explaining things in a way I'll understand. Maybe I'm just lucky. I've had people sound patronising because I don't know something obvious, but never because I'm female.
I agree. If it was meant to be funny, it's a lame effort. Obviously time I start filtering out the "humour" efforts.
True anough too. However, I think that most of us actually can get laid when we want too. No, really.
Very enlightening. My problem is that most people think there is something psychologically wrong with me because I am a geek stuck in the body of a jock. Many people who don't know me think that I play on my school's football team or something like that, but they act like I am the antichrist when they find out I don't really like sports. Another funny thing is that I haven't had a girlfriend since the summer before 10th grade, and I am a junior now. Oh well. Good article. I might mirror it on my site just to make sure that this gem doesn't get lost in /.'s archives.
I'm still in high school too, and have had the exact same experience with girls as you have. I've always had a lot of friends who happen to be girls (wording girl-friend w/o implying dateing has got to be the hardest thing to do). My current girlfriend is one of my best friends, as well as someone i am in love with (please no crtisism on that). We were friends for about 6 or 7 months before we became *close* friends, and we started dateing.
she has almost no interest in computers, but i do. Its not something that either of us really notice, we just focus on other things that we like mutually.
dont rush it are words to live by.
Eraser_
Here is a fun little trick. Just find all the male portions of grammar in a document, replace them with the female counterpart (another good trick is using "black" instead of "woman", or virtually any minority group), touch up a little here and there and see if the original document its still offensive.
This test has worked for me a lot in the past to try to determine is what is being said is bigoted. I grew up in a "traditional" (that is to say rasist and sexist) household so its tough for me sometimes to see "others" points of view.
If you wanna check it out go to this page.
Do you ever feel like there are people watching you? You're not alone.
I honestly do not want to get done with writing a really groovy perl script, or finish a sweet game of quakeIII, and then go to my wife for loving, and she's in there playing starcraft.
:)
None of that.
Conflict of interest. I like my gf as much as my computer(if not more.) Opposites attract
While I agree with you I found Rob's mating advice more humorous than offensive. Or perhaps a little of both.
If you want to know what women want the worst thing you can do is ask another guy. At best he'll only be able to relate his own experiences. At worst he'll drudge up a bunch of generalizations and stereotypes.
Women are all different. Everyone of them. If you want to know what women want get to know one. Find out the particulars. And then think for yourself.
-Kirk
"To steal from one is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
-- wasn't this a line from "Lobachevsky" on an old Tom Lehrer album?
Ah this is so true. Most of my geek friends who are married have girlfriends/wives who have nothing to do with computer, technology or engineering. And they are very happy and are GLAD that their girlfriends/wives don't have anything to do with computers. Only one or two have geek girlfriends. My present girlfriend is very homey and is very kind, sweet and very cute! She likes to cook for me home made Japanese food and go to Japanese Hot Springs. And is extremely affectionate. :-) (Yes she's Japanese) But the best part, she let's me play with computers/geek toys and be myself and doesn't complain, I just have to spend time with her and pay attention to her needs and desires and we have no problems. Good luck!
I live to serve my wife, and she lives to serve me. The sevices we have to offer are different, and both of us are grateful.
To each their own. Make yourself happy and be kind to others.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Well, I've cleaned spilled coffee off keyboards. I've cleaned spilled Diet Coke off keyboards. I've even cleaned spilled Pinot Grigio off keyboards (and picked out wine glass shards from between the keys with a tweezer). Now I gotta figure out how to clean HURL off a keyboard.
I gave my girl a link to this article, it made her feel special, my 2 cents
Is the star wars stuff really news??? The fact that it would be found interesting by a lot of /.ers surely warrents this to be posted?
man, if any of us knew the answer to that we wouldn't be here. we'd be off in love land getting a shoulder rub and having a bath drawn for us (or our personal equivalent heaven)
all I can say is don't be a pussy (no pun) and just talk to girls, they're not all scarey or flippant. some of them are psycho hose-beasts, but for the most part they are easy to get along with.
just talk to them see what you figure out by yourself.
and there's always ICQ..
"..Constructive critizism is always welcome however."
(1) All politics occurs in the United States. Most of your comments above have little to do with the rest of the world's politics, even if you shave off the serial numbers and pretend that a 'social democrat' in Europe is the 'same' as a 'liberal' in the U.S. With that in mind, I guess I had better address your fairly limited concerns, i.e., U.S. politics and relationships. 8)
(2) All geeks are stereotypical liberals. Uh, not so. There are lots of libertarians and anarchists and even right-wingers, both the religious and non-religious variety (eh, you didn't notice some right-wingers are not religious?).
(2) The female population is divided into right-wing Christians and left-wing feminists. Erm? If you're not listening to people's political beliefs because they are female, you might be having trouble getting second dates. There is as much variety in women's political viewpoints as men's. But see #1 above. ;)
(3) All left-wing women are feminists. This seems intuitive too, but the reality is hardly so simple and stereotypical. Plenty of women who believe in social justice stay home to raise their children. Ask around, somewhere outside of the boundaries of places like Bezerkeley. ;)
As a propertarian anarchist who is quite happily married to a libertarian with left-leanings who has a social conscience and is staying home to take care of our child, I can tell you that the world is not as simple a place as you think. ;) Oh, and neither of us is a Christian. ;)
Wait a second. What about when she needs a hug? If a geek guy can break away from his coding to provide a hug to a non-geek wife, why wouldn't a geek girl be able to take a hug break for a geek husband?
Men involved in activities that demand long periods of intense concentration (programmers, artists, writers, musicians, etc.) need women who will respect what they do and help them do it well, not women who compete with them.
I don't view geek activities as competitive. There's nothing I enjoy more in the world then spending time with my best friend, who is a fellow geek. Besides doing a zillion geeky things together, we also watch movies, talk about books we've read, listen to music, discuss current affairs, etc.. We don't compete: we cooperate and share. You haven't advanced any convincing reason why such a relationship would not be possible with a girl.
I don't think I could love a girl like you describe--love (true love) requires a degree of mental compatibility that I could not have with a non-geek, not because there is anything wrong with non-geeks, but rather because anyone who is mentally compatible with me on a deep level will be a geek--that comes with the territory. Frankly, and I don't mean this in a negative or insulting way, it sounds like what you are describing is not a wife, but a servant/concubine, that one can love much the way one can love a cat or a dog.
I love my best friend. I'm not going to settle for a wife that I can't love at least as much as I love him. Love without sex is better than sex without love.
I've never had a date in my life. Never anything that resembeled a date. I will follow these rules and court a female. (I'm 17) If this works I will right back Priasing Robin and building a shrine in his name that reflects my feelings of love for the man. If it dosen't work? Aw well nothing lost.
Do not wright in this space.
Well, there's a perspective i've never seen this from. I kind of like it, though I somehow still feel the urge to get a girl...
This is where I'd draw the line. *** gets on soapbox ***. This is only an article. No one said it was the complete truth and fact of life. It was created by a human ( I think anyways.. ) and therefore has much OPINION in it.
Don't get your panties in a twist.
*** gets off soapbox ***
I just read this article re: geeks finding women and I had to struggle to not gag myself with my index finger. Why the hell wouldn't a geek girl be just about the perfect match for a lovelorn geek guy?
Speaking as a geek guy, I can honestly say that one of the reasons I find my fiancee attractive is that she and I can converse about the same interesting subjects. I can come home and talk to her about different releases of Solaris and she'll know what I'm talking about, and conversely, she can talk to me about her PERL/PHP projects and I'll understand what they're for.
In fact, she's probably more of a geek than I am--she reads more SF, posts to more internet newsgroups, and all-around is more educated than I am. And I feel absolutely no competition from her because of her technical knowledge. Also, why should anyone specifically feel the need to seek out a woman who does things like cook, run bath water, etc, when in a healthy relationship, both parties should share those duties. I don't know about the other readers here, but my fiancee and I pretty much both cook, both run the bath water, both give each other backrubs, and both look over each others' PERL code.
Also, the article mentions "The best way to handle conversation with a woman..." Well duh, that's common sense with any person--you listen to THEM! And if their interests happen to be computers, well then you've hit the jackpot and you can talk about things like run levels, software piracy, and how MAC addresses are allocated.
I just don't think the author is giving enough geek guys credit--maybe not even himself. Why settle for someone who isn't the perfect match merely because you're worried that she'll be competition for you?
Oh yeah, and the assertion that it's pointless to persue the attractive females because they're not geeks is also incorrect. My fiancee is a six foot tall blonde babe who sits around all day coding naked.
> And a guide on "How To Be a Normal Human Being 101 by Roblimo, Master of Suaveness" isn't going to help them get to grips with the fact that the REAL secret to successful relationships is to:
:)
> [etc]
Heh. Why the hell would I want to be a Normal Human Being (tm)? I've observed such people in their natural environment, and it made me want to puke. At least where I live, Normal Human Males are ignorant twits who keep each other in line by constantly and brutally questioning each other's manliness. (the word "faggot" is used frequently, although I doubt they're able to spell it right.)
These guys also happen to be the 90% that swarm to the 10% in the bars. Figure out why.
>Things will happen from there. If you're in high school, sign up for clubs besides Math Team, Quiz Bowl, and the Honor Society. Join a sport (track is always recruiting),
Oh boy. Competitive sports. Just the thing I always wanted to do with my time, and the thing I've always been so good at. (really.) As an added bonus, you get to hang out with a bunch of athletic guys in smelly locker rooms. For me at least, locker rooms give me flashbacks of the most horrible bits of my high school years, and probably have the same effect on most other geeks too.
>or the theatre group (and don't just be a techie, TRY out for a part, for Pete's sake), or anything artsy.
_This_ is the only good suggestion you've given. And although I know few geeks that have any acting talent whatsoever, I've known many artistic types with whom I've gotten along with very well indeed, and were even halfway geeky sorts. IMHO, hanging out with artists is a Good Thing for probably a lot of geeks. And many of them share a lot of the same interests as we do. (outside of computers and science, of course.
YES! This is it exactly! :D I wish I had something else to put in, but Kish has already summed the whole thing up. :D
The sexism of Roblimo's article is depressing but familiar. He claims to be giving advice on getting a wife but, in fact, just babbles on about how to pick who'll be good in bed and how to get her there. Naturally all us women are so stupid that if you just keep your eyes and hands off our boobs long enough, we'll assume you must really like us for ourselves and rip our clothes for you. Notice also that despite Roblimo's wife sweetly drawing his bath for him every day, he never once mentions what he does for HER - in fact he never even mentions the CONCEPT that he might do something in return. How can he when he's locked up making love to his computer all day and night? Does it occur to him that his wife might be just a little bored and lonely during those periods? Roblimo compares himself to an artist - try reading a few artists' biographies and see just how long their relationships tended to last. Yes, I'm a woman and I work as a system support-admin. I guess this makes me the kind of competitive geekgirl Roblimo waves crosses at. And guess what? I've given up on geek guys because in my experience, they're just as sexist and insulting as Roblimo. I don't fall for guys plodding their way through step-by-step formulae on how to get me into bed any more than I fall for guys with sleazy pickup lines. And any guy who expects me to draw his bath while he doesn't do a single damned thing for me (and this is REALLY common) gets booted out of my life pronto. I don't care how brilliant-but-shy you are, I will not be your drudge. It's good to see that a few slashdotters have picked up on these points but depressing to see how many more have hailed Roblimo's formula as a godsend. Just try treating us as human beings! Why is that so damned difficult for men?
This article is for NERDS. The easiest and best way to reach nerds is through Slashdot "Oh, praise thou holly name!" If you do not have the IQ to realize the logic behind the posting of this article than I suggest that you quit reading Slashdot and begin to read Seventeen and other such magazines. Short but sweet
The comments of me are not necessarily those of me. I cannot be held responsible for comments made by me, myself, and I. Also neither can Slashdot, The US Government, the citizens of Earth, God, and or any other deity in which you might worship.
I agree. It can also be a problem when a girl, knows nothing about computers and has an hour long argument with you about why everyone hates Bill Gates because he is a rich computer genius. Uuugh I still get angry about it.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
On the other hand, maybe not everyone wants a girl like Debbie, as wonderful as she may be? Lots of Roblimo's advice is generically useful ("Look them in the eye / Use their name when appropriate / Smile / etc."). But, to beleaguer the obvious, people have different tastes. What is most important? Mutual caring? Hot sex? Shared recreational interests? Shared work interests? That they'll leave you alone when you want them to? That they have at least three but no more than five body piercings?
Just because you don't want the exact qualities that Roblimo is pointing out doesn't mean that he isn't still giving good advice: figure out what you want, what will make your (and maybe even their!) life better, and be realistic[2]. So for all of you who don't care if your S.O. will take care of you: great. You'll have a wider selection! (Just make sure you really mean it and aren't echoing PC rhetoric without realizing it.)
[1] Hint for geek girls: 10:1 is really great odds. You can be selective, even if you have to put up with being pestered.
[2] Coding a HTML4.0 compliant web browser in a weekend is not realistic. Adjust your personal expectations accordingly.
I have to concur with Uncle Robin's posting. I actually met my wife BEFORE I became a geek, but she has seen how happy I am when I "geek out" in my office or with my friends. She does not always understand when I get on a soap box & launch into a speech about this or that, but she asks questions some questions and makes me feel like what I'm saying is important (even though she may not give a flying ratts butt about the birth of the Net or why the OSS movement is so cool).
The long and the short of it is that she accepts me for who I am and what I have become and that makes her the best wife in the whole world.
Nuff said!
Just a comment on your footer: Intelligence does not breed - it's too concerned with being intelligent to actually dedicate time to procreate. Stupidity is the one that breeds, for it is the ignorant that reproduces not the enlightened! The very fact that we made it to computers is an unconceivable miracle!!!!! ;^)
Feel love for her u do, but like a wimp u cry. Be a man u must! Take her back U MUST! ;^)
Yes! This is the aswer! This must become a manual and I must have it!!!! ;^)
Even knowledgable Uncle Robin is a bit of a spring grasshoppa when it comes to women. (he's maybe been with what, 10 tops?)
:)
What if you are not seeking a steady (and demeaning in uncl'robins case) realtionship.
Can you, from the depths of your geekdom, actually fathom attracting multiple women?
In my home state of colorado i have never met a(nother) young person who is both socially skillfull and an experienced geek. (i do know some people like this in cali, only a few though)
I have however helped geeks in the past find a partner. lets say we're not interested in a life partner, lets say we want what every 22 year old wants...
i've complied a little list of things that should help deep kernel hackers reach for more than their jolt cola's at night.
Note: This list is not politically correct, nor is it fair, but it is honest.
1. on first meeting, physical attractivness is 95% of the game. you can't get around it, its hard wired into our brains and its reinforced throughout life.
(even if you're ugly and pasty you have to try)
1.1 Dress well, (ps, this is not your idea of well dressed, its someone else's, ask people who they know that dresses well - dress like them)
1.1.1 Alternately - dress like the kind of person you are trying to attract. (dangerous)
1.2 work out, (this means lift) even if you are butt ugly you can attract certain women if you are cut like a 3000k diamond.
1.3 Look at people when you talk to them (uncle robin)
2. Never talk about anything remotely geeky until you're absolutely sure the person is interested. (which is almost never) This means never on a first meeting with a person, no exceptions, even if the person you're talking with asks you about something geeky. ie. what do you do?
right: oh, i work on computer crap.
wrong: im a java developer working on a client to interface with an oracle 8 database using the JDBC.
3. Admit that you dont understand how to talk to women and watch someone who does. Youre smart right? well then how do those stupid guys do it and you can't... Look, you're going to have to change yourself and adapt, evolve. your're smarter, so prove it, learn to speak down to the level of everyone else you're talking with, learn how to small talk, mostly that means talk about things that are going on in the room right now.
4. If you have any antisocial habits find them and get rid of them. Nobody likes to admit they have a stupid laugh, or that they're ADD and bother the people around them, but if you have a bad habit you're going to have to change. ie. you can videotape yourself talking with 'regular' people then watch it, it might be harsh, but you'll notice the stupid things you're doing/saying. if you cant change, stop reading, its a lost cause.
5. learn how to dance. (i mean really dance) Pick something and go with it, like 2 step or swing or anything, even learning can hook you up, become really good, not just ok. this step alone can get you all the heated nights you'd ever want. (and all the std's too, but that's your problem)
6. Clean up your place and make it look like a regular/cool person lives there.
7. Own a nice (looking) vehicle.
8. If everybody knows your a geek and they aren't likely to give you second chance, move.
9. Smile (but not like that)
10. Learn how to act. Looking like you're after 'fresh meat' will never get you any (unless your really attractive in which case you needn't read any of this). Learn how to look concerned, friendly, helpful, remember you're just a fun loving person who wants to have good clean fun (convince yourself of this), if you look/act like you're after anything else, you can forget it.
11. THE MAIN POINT. you think you're smart? really? then why can't you install mod_perl and sleep with someone every night? because you have failed to adapt, you haven't learned how to play the social game. you may look down on it, think its sophomoric or pointless, (in reality so do most of the people who can play it) but you still have to play. Attracting people may not be something you have an aptitude for. but you can force yourself, you are intelligent, observe human behavior, learn from it, pretend you're an anthropologist trying to fit in with a new tribe. pretend its a game, pretend you are a new ad and d character, pretend anything as long as it lets you soak in social dogma and react to it with charisma. the main idea here is adapt to the situation. (your ancestors did)
13. there are many things you must know once you've attracted a partner, but this is too long already, good luck
How to know if a women is interested in me? In my experience, one womans "yes", is another womans "no". As a group, I find no signal, just noise. It is possible to learn a particular womans signals, but only if one has been lucky enough to know her a while. The only consistent signal I have found, is that if I am in their home, and they don't protest at that, then they like me. What do you think? Do you know of signals? Do you have enough samples to determine that there is a signal? Or are you just lucky/unlucky? Kim0
I'm a geek. I married a pharmacist who could hardly format a floppy when I met her. I think the differences in our interests is what has kept our marriage strong for 9 years now. Is she a world-class hottie? No, thank goodness. I couldn't deal with that kind of pressure. But she is extraordinarily cute and one of the kindest people I have ever met. More advice. When the time is right, tell her you love her. After that, tell her often. It's nice to hear. The nice thing is that this has given us the opportunity to learn from each other; Mary Beth installed her first card the other day (a NIC) just "because she wanted to know how to do it" and, even though her computer knowledge is far from extensive, her coworkers see her as the computer "heavy" in the office which does earn her perks and recognition. Her only frustration is that 3 years ago I was making $15k less than her, and now I'm making $15k more than her...I tell her it all comes out of one pot, but the reality is that she works in the healthcare profession which certainly doesn't have as much free-flowing cash as the computer industry does.
I read this article to my wife and she found it quite offensive and sexist. We're both nerds, and found most of the "advice" overtly simplistic. Your comments are good. We'd like to point out, though that geek guys NEED to dress better. Showing up in a pair of baggy jeans, with running shoes and an untucked shirt does not endear you with the girls. Try looking a little preppy, cut the hair neatly, and shave off the facial hair if you can't grow a decent beard. Its that simple.
Scott A. Carson
Questions should be banned. Conversation too. Everyone should be locked in the basement with 300 computing books, a box of tools and pieces of a computer. No network connection allowed: too social.
The blatant assumption on the part of the author that "geek" women aren't just as affectionate as the "non-geek" women is insulting. Simple because a woman understands computer related technology does not instantaneously render her incapable of giving and receiving affection. A "geek" woman is indeed just as capable of this feat, for understanding technology does not render a woman emotionally impotent as the author seems to imply. In fact, a "geek" woman would be more likely to understand her significant other's obsession with sitting in front of a machine for more than twelve hours a day than the "non-geek" woman. "Geek" women also tend to be fairly self-reliant and won't constantly nag at "geek" men to do things for her. While I understand that men appreciate being needed, being needed to help lift something or for company is different from being needed by some women to simply leave the house.
The happy homemaker being described by the author is a rare commodity in this day and age. The woman who enjoys cooking and cleaning and a few moments with her significant other seems to have become a part of '50's television reruns and been replaced by the "modern" female. This woman, while she may enjoy cooking and/or cleaning, also enjoys skiing, working at a competitive job, and a myriad of other activities. Assuming that this '50's female is the end-all solution for every "geek" man is incredibly narrow-sighted on the part of the author.
Comparing a woman's appearance to packaging is unflattering to say the least, and sometimes deceptive. I personally know many sweet, caring women who get dolled up and fawned over by many men, but are still looking for an equally sensitive Mr. Right. Assuming what a person's personality is based on appearance is incredibly shallow and shortsighted. While a good deal can be gleaned from a person's appearance,, narrowing their personality down based solely upon this is a major error on the part of anyone who does this. You might be missing out on "Ms. Right" by doing this.
I don't completely disagree with what the author has stated. In fact, his advice on giving honest compliments and asking questions is right on the mark. The fact that he seems to think that "geek" guys should avoid considering dating a "geek" woman to seemingly avoid some kind of "geek" competition is rather off-base. Why can't you discuss computer hardware with a woman? Who knows, you might possibly discover during the course of discussing this that you have many other interests in common.
Wow ... I was nearly taken in by this otherwise thoughtful, trenchant commentary, until the advice to check out COSMO! Yeah, that's done a lot for the healthy socialization of women ... creating the attitude that great sex is not only a woman's right but likely the most important thing to a loving relationship, and repeatedly suggesting that the "right man" is something to be bagged/trapped rather than dealt with on even terms.
... and urging them to shape their conversational topics to fit the "Cosmo girl's" extremely limited universe.
I can only conclude that this is a stealthy post (from a spy for 'their' side (g)) masquerading as good advice, but actually designed to take a generation of geeks out of the dating pool by getting them to cater to the lowest common denominator of relationshipdom
(From a former lonely geek now banging chicks left and right):
Useful resources:
In the end, if you just be yourself and are respectful and kind to people you interact with you will eventually attract a person who matches your personality best. If you are a totally dorky nerd with no interpersonal skills, it will probably take a while, but it will happen. As usual, being true to yourself can be a lonely task if you are a "unique" person. But if you are patient, the payout is enormous.
So don't be manipulative or work too hard at "catching" a woman or try to change yourself, but on the other hand don't let your high IQ seduce you into becoming closeminded (know-it-all) or snide or dysfunctionally withdrawn from the world. Make an effort, but be true to yourself.
Cherish your visions; cherish your ideals; cherish the music that stirs in your heart, the beauty that forms in your mind, the loveliness that drapes your purest thoughts, for ... if you remain true to them, your world will at last be built."
--- James Allen
- Robin
A Clue: this article is listed under our "It's funny. Laugh" topic. Sure, there's truth in it, but please try not to take it too seriously.
- Robin
That mutual respect is what I was looking for, and found in my wife (though we have some rough edges, mostly my fault as some of my values are incompatable with hers but hers are okay with me).
Bill - aka taniwha
--
Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
I *could* have said, "The best example I can think of for this sort of relationship is my friend Mike and his girlfriend Sarah", but that would only be effective to the people who know them (a relatively small sample). Trollboy.
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Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
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Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Waste time on geek girls and porn stars! Find yourself a geek girl pornstar! Asia Carrera, are you listening? :)
But seriously, my girlfriend is somewhat geeky, maybe not as bad as I am, but I like it when she knows what I'm talking about. Being geeky doesn't mean being competitive (I'm not), it doesn't mean being obsessed with computers (she's isn't really, unless you count computer games, but many non-geeky people share that flaw), and it doesn't mean being unable to communicate with people or being unable to express yourself.
Some of your advice is good, but I don't need a woman who will simply accept that I'm different, get in the kitchen, and make me some pie. I think that relationship would be missing something.
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pb Reply rather than vaguely moderate me.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
As in from the time long ago when men were manly and women were June Cleaver. That's just not going to work for me. I agree that you need to talk to them & ask questions just like they're one of your best friends, but your motives for doing so are quite gross.
From what you've said, it seems the only reason to be nice to a woman is on the outside chance she'll make your bed in the morning and let you see her bits once in awhile. That's a pretty messed up way of thinking. If I want a slave, I'll go hang out at the local S&M places.
As for your idea that she shouldn't be a geek, and probably shouldn't be involved in computers, that would present problems for me. Sure I don't live & breathe the things, but it sure would be nice to be able to sit around somewhere and be able to talk like a total nerdy luser and not have to explain everything.
Your theory might work in 1960, but it's not going to work most of the time these days, thank Bob.
this is like the coolest thing I have ever seen. I suspected most of this anyway, but roblimo is like the masta hacker pimp.
All these points can be summarized as follows: you're the breadwinner. Women you fall in love with shouldn't be involved in the perils of the economy. They shouldn't be geeks. They shouldn't be interested in computers. Their jobs shouldn't be technically oriented. Every one of these points tell us something not to expect out of women that is pretty fundamental to the modern economy. The problem is that someone has to go out and battle the economy so if you want these humanity majors you'd better get used to being the provider.
So, we have to make our marriage work. And work it does. Why does it work?
Because both my wife and myself are willing to put aside our egos in pursuit of happiness. Your post reeks of the self-aggrandizement that our society has used to replace humility. A real marriage that is going to have any future has to include mutual sacrifice. And yes, there have been occasions where that has included my wife acting as my servant.
But there's a flip side to that. I have an obligation to care for my wife, no matter what. That obligation includes dieing for her if the issue came up. It includes working hard a long way from home four days a week so that she doesn't have to work and one of us can stay home with our son. Why her? Because I have job skills that let me make more money, plus I really suck at breast-feeding. (On an aside: my son is now coming up on two and has only been sick -- including colds and ear infections -- when he was teething. Compare that to a formula-fed baby sometime).
I have done some, limited, marital counseling. And I can tell you that the only way that a marriage will work in the long term is if both partners give up their ego's and petty desires and pursue the much more lasting joy that can be found in marriage and family. Most problems in marriage come when one partner decides that "just this once" they will place their immediate wants ahead of the needs of their marriage and family. They gave up that right when they said "Love, honor, and cherish till death do us part". Anything less than total love and total sacrifice as though your spouse is yourself is not marriage, but masturbation.
This will be contentious, but I have to say that I am so sick of our culture acting as though everyone has some kind of right to pursue their immediate wants. Often, you have to give up your immediate wants to get what you need -- and you will find greater joy in getting what you really need than the shallow "self-esteem" that our culture glorifies. It's called being an adult.
I'm rambling... Later.
-- Slashdot sucks.
Geez; you don't have to be like that. Roblimo didn't mean it that way, I'm sure. I'll admit, I take something of an issue with the "old-fashioned girl" bit. But honestly, must you see everything a man says about a women as wrong? Really, let's look at your points, and see how someone else interpreted these things...
Geek girls are incapable of being loving and considerate, and unloving and inconsiderate geek guys have to avoid that.
OK, I have to agree on this one. This was rather poorly worded. I won't say this article couldn't have stood another revision or two.
The ideal woman is one who selflessly meets your every needs.
I assume you're talking about the "old-fashioned girl" thing. I didn't get that read from the passage, though. It looked to me as though Roblimo was saying that geeks need someone who doesn't mind doing this occasionally. There's a corollary behind this: if she does it sometimes, you'll have to do it too.
The proper role for the woman is that of handservant, who considers running your bathwater to be part of a "mutually beneficial" relationship.
What you describe is, I think, more of an abusive relationship than a mutually beneficial one. The point Roblimo was making was this: At any one time, no given relationship is ever truly equal to both sides. It balances out over time, but at any given moment the man might need more, or the woman might. That's where the phrase "give and take" comes from. This is another thing where Roblimo left out something he should have added: geeks need (actually, anyone needs) a partner who doesn't mind being on the giving end of things sometimes. But said geek had better be prepared to do his fair share of giving sometimes too. In the end, a good relationship will balance out.
One way to evaluate a woman is to take off her clothes and makeup.
Oh, please. He was trying to rephrase "people aren't always what they seem at first glance." Besides which, I suppose it is one way to evaluate a woman; not a good way by any means but a way nonetheless.
In bars, the females that are unattainable are called "women" while the ones that you are supposed to go after are called "girls".
Frankly, I find your paranoia more offensive than anything he said in his article. You're talking semantics now. No need for that.
If a woman finds you unattractive, dump her as quickly as possible.
There are more types of attraction than physical, you know. I think this is what Roblimo was trying to get at. If someone doesn't find you attractive in any way (or, to word it a bit better, isn't sttracted to you at all), then you're both wasting time in a relationship. It seems to me that you're more obsessed with the physical aspects of Roblimo is, as evidenced by the next couple of statements...
Grown breasts are worth waiting for.
Be nice to geeky looking girls, just in case they grow up and look good.
This wasn't even meant to be advice. He was merely giving an anecdote. The unattractive one is teased by all the boys but one. Then, a few years later, she becomes attractive, and everyone wants her but she is only interested in the one who had been kind to her. The moral of the story: don't be mean to anyone, or your decisions could come back to haunt you.
In spite of all of the above, imperfections are to be overlooked.
Either you're a hypocrite or you had absolutely no clue what you were doing when you wrote this one. It runs quite counter to your argument. You seem to fight the idea of the "ideal woman" and yet you state here that any imperfection should be taken as grounds for avoiding a relationship. I have some news for you: no one is perfect. That's what real love is: you recognize the faults in your partner, but you love him/her anyway.
All women are looking for a man to fill the empty void in their lives.
Um, where'd you even pick this one up? I've looked over the article several times and I still can't find anything that even remotely suggests that one. He does say at one point that there are a lot of women who are looking for a man; statistically this is probably quite true (over three billion women on the planet, after all; even one percent of that is still 30,000,000, and there's probably more than one percent looking).
If you're not having any success, find someone like Roblimo, considers himself an expert at picking up chix and is ready to dispense a handful of advice because he has a pleasant and apparently subservient wife who meets his needs.
Look. Roblimo didn't word everything in the article all that well. He's also new; mistakes are to be expected. Heck; I've been reading Slashdot for four years, my Karma is over 60, and I still word things pretty poorly sometimes. No need to jump all over him for one mistake.
To those who have not found their special one yet:
It's out there. Go for it. You will know when you met her or him. Then don't let the opportunity pass. Don't listen too much to others, it will be different for you. And, yes, all that trouble is worth it. :)
Plain and simple, if you're a good guy you'll be a virgin for life. I've been with my share of women, I have a daughter who is almost three now, but if I had been a nice guy I would still be a virgin and single with no children.
True story here:
Me and some buddies went to a party freshman year (college), the whole night was pretty lame everyone was looking for something better to do. I noticed these two bi-chicks sitting at a table in the backyard. I simply approached and asked "Wanna fuck?" and both said yes, immediately.
Moral of the story here guys is chicks are just like us, they get horny and they like challenges as much as they like one night stands. Nice chicks don't get laid anymore than nice guys.
One part dry humor, ten parts asinine, a hundred parts yawn. I'll probably be single for the rest of my life because I don't relate to people, but I'd rather be that than ... I don't have the words. The author ever thought of women as people? Oh wait, I guess he doesn't have to, because he's married now, and is guaranteed to have her for life.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAaaaaa
You're in for some bitter resentment down the line, boy.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
I have a friend, now a mother of two, who was a Police Woman when I first met her. Despite dating anything but Police Men, when she eventualy decided to settle that's exactly what she picked. When I asked her why she replied: Being a Police Man/Woman has its own unique kind of pressures and problems. Who better to understand and support me when I come home after a bad day (had a murder or similar). Someone in another profession just wouldn't be able to relate in the same way.
My present partner isn't a techie, or a geek. She's a sales manager for a software company. But being in the same industry she understands the long hours (puts them in herself) and the type of job I do. I've had previous partners from totally different walks of life that didn't understand my job, or the amount of time I spend on Linux and resented it.
So I think there's something to be said for someone who perhaps shares ones interests or at least can relate to it in some way.
Macka
People actually do ask Roblimo those questions fairly often. (It helps that he's head-over-heels for Debbie and talks about her a lot.) Maybe he just attracts single guys who think they're down on their luck. Seems like a thankless job to me, telling a bunch of people to get up, look beyond themselves, and start talking to other people.
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QDMerge 0.4 just released!
how to invest, a novice's guide
Conversation is the true secret, and I am baffled as to why more people don't know about it. If you start interacting with a potential S.O. and you look up 4 hours later and ask, "Have we been talking that long?" you are onto something. It doesn't matter what you were talking about -- coding or sex or the best way to finish a bookshelf -- as long as you are both interested. My happy marriage is just a continuation of that first long conversation I had with her.
6 years and one kid, and going strong.
Why should I go out and do a whole big bunch of things I find horribly unpleasant? It seems to me that the fact that I'm obviously uncomfortable would be a huge turnoff.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
I wouldn't call it offensive.
Geek girls are incapable of being loving and considerate, and unloving and inconsiderate geek guys have to avoid that.
Doesn't apply to all of them, but many.
The ideal woman is one who selflessly meets your every needs. The proper role for the woman is that of handservant, who considers running your bathwater to be part of a "mutually beneficial" relationship.
Maybe not ideal for _you_, but this is what lots of guys are looking for.
One way to evaluate a woman is to take off her clothes and makeup.
That's one way.. there are others.
In bars, the females that are unattainable are called "women" while the ones that you are supposed to go after are called "girls".
I don't know what this means.
If a woman finds you unattractive, dump her as quickly as possible.
I agree...assuming she doesn't dump you first.
Grown breasts are worth waiting for.
Might be his personal preference.
Be nice to geeky looking girls, just in case they grow up and look good.
Advice to LIVE BY.
In spite of all of the above, imperfections are to be overlooked.
Nobody's perfect.
All women are looking for a man to fill the empty void in their lives.
Many are, and many men are looking for a woman to fill a void, so this statement is only partially true.
If you're not having any success, find someone like Roblimo, considers himself an expert at picking up chix and is ready to dispense a handful of advice because he has a pleasant and apparently subservient wife who meets his needs.
Advice can be taken or ignored. He didn't force you to accept his advice did he? I think some of his points were very realistic and can help out people who are shy or have problems with the opposite sex. You've done nothing but criticize.
Or at least get the Mozilla team to add an about: link to it :)
/. readers have been out on more than two dates with the same woman?
Maybe time for a new poll - how many male
I think that that's a valid conclusion from that part of roblimo's post. Geek girls shouldn't go for near-soulless geek guys, either.
There may be some truth to the idea, though. What's needed in a relationship isn't for both people to love the same thing so much as to both like what the other one loves. This way you can have understanding of the other. Both loving the same thing may work out better or worse, I'm not really sure as I've never had a relationship where that happened, but I think that it's pretty obvious that you need to at least like what the other one loves.
That being the case, there are a whole lot of other personality traits on has to have in common for a relationship to work as well. Past the basics like being a decent human being, caring, thoughtful, etc., both partners need something of a similar spirit. A similar sense of humor. A similar way of looking at the world. Or maybe compatable is better than similar, though I think that in general it's only similar spirits that are compatible.
Now, personality/spirit types seem to be about randomly spread out through the human race. Some football players are caring, others aren't. Some geeks are caring, others aren't. Geekdom like the rest of professions doesn't require a full person, only a few aspects of a person, so the rest can be whatever God wanted them to be, and they'll work out as geeks (same goes for just about every profession, though different ones select on different traits). If that's true, then you'll be more likely to find a caring person in a somewhat different field, as the number of caring people in your field will be n-1 (assuming that you're a caring person and not going to date yourself).
The other problem is that for men the ratio of men:women in computers is really off balance. You'll find more geek-type girls in other "intellectual" professions (most of my girlfriends have been really into math, biology, or physics (usually with significant overlap)). That piece of advice may be more gender-specific because if you're a computer-geek guy and the number of computer geek guys is l, then the eligible population of dating partners just in computer geeks is something like l/5 (assuming that you're not homosexual). Those aren't good odds to start out with, so you've got a better chance of success by expanding your pools of possibilities. When you include anything which requires at least reasonable comfort with mathematics or logic, your odds of finding someone compatible are just a lot higher (statistically speaking, actual results may vary).
So in conclusion, it all depends (big surprise). If you're a caring partner and need a caring partner, then your odds of finding one may be better or worse if you look in the computing field, but they're almost definitely worse if you limit your search to women in the computing field as there are significantly fewer of them then men (or rather it appears to be so, however someone not announcing their geekiness and someone who isn't a geek is the same thing unless your telepathic).
But I think that a lot of this can be simplified quite a bit:
1. Make friends with everyone you like and try to be on good terms with everyone if possible.
2. If in the course of life one of your friends of target gender starts to want more from you, and at the same time you start to want more from them, and equally importantly you want to give more to each other, then great.
Sounds fairly reasonable, doesn't it?
They laughed at Einstein. They laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. -- C. Sagan
I envy you. I really do. I wish I could just go through my life with out a wife. But after 13 years of taking care of things myself (my built-in feedback system kicked in at a very young age) I have realized that I do not need a woman for sex. But I do need one for love, companionship, cuddling, caring, etc. I haven't found it yet because as a geek I'm terrible with women. But I know that the time is rapidly approaching where I will have to start seeking a mate. Sure the sex will be nice but it's not what it's about.
Sure I love the freedom of having tons of porn laying around, not bathing while in the grips of a 3-day coding binge, staying up all night writing code because I was on a roll and didn't want to forget what I was doing because I hadn't commented a single line of code (hehe), etc. But I would gladly give up those "freedoms" for the security of knowing that the woman laying next to me in bed every night loves me .
That's just me. I understand what I need in life and so do you. We're just different. Nevertheless, I envy you.
Best of luck.
<SIG>
I think I lost my work ethic while surfing the web. If you find it, please email it to crispy@crotch.caltech.edu.
</SIG>
My sig has a broken link in it.
Poor Rob. He missed a big date or something and Debbie is pissed. Quick! Use Slashdot to kiss up and make things right. He won't be sleeping in the doghouse tonight.
Lucky guy. I'd have to buy jewelry.
{grin}
InitZero
We are not so one-sided (well, I know I'm not...) that we need these things explained to us in computer terms. I mean, "women have HOWTOs"??? Come on.
I guess for people like you most of this is sound advice, but I know geeks and geek girls that get along GREAT together. And it's not about being able to discuss computer hardware with them. It's about not having to always dumb it down by talking about the latest gossip and fashions each day.
Smart people often like to just throw around ideas recklessly, making for some very unusual conversations. I know a guy who is a smart computer person, and has a girlfriend who is also a smart computer person. They hardly ever talk about computers. They talk about everything from time travel and astrophysics to the intricacies in the etiquete for calling shotgun. The difference is that their conversation takes place at a much higher level than a typical husband and wife conversation. To outsiders it sounds downright weird, but that's what happens when two people hit the same wavelength.
--
grappler
Vidi, Vici, Veni
If you've done this before, I've never noticed.
They made the poll point to the Robin Miller discussion on women! That will keep it going for a while yet, and probably also cause a fair amount of confusion when a bunch of valid posts are moderated as "offtopic". That's my guess anyway.
About the poll - I'm not one to complain about this, but there really wasn't any option that was even close to my answer, nor was there a "throwaway" option (Rob sux, onions are blue) to indicate none of the above. And I don't think I'm in the minority.
I get along with girls just fine, and have several friends that are girls. But they aren't constantly coming on to me...
--
grappler
Vidi, Vici, Veni
by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 24, @12:40PM EDT
> PETA women are always looking for partners, and
> they vote just like you and donate to the same
> causes.
Like hell they do! PETA, Greens, and other luddite bastards are the natural enemies of anyone who likes technology and/or believes in liberty. I'd rather be with a "right-wing" chiX0r whose political/religious views I'm indifferent to than some raging tree hugger whose politics are threatening the future of my species and my civilization. Of course, I don't have to settle for right-wing, because the sisters ain't dumb: more and more of them are wising up to what Libertarianism has to offer.
dude, you are twisted
The last thing anybody wants is some ditzy broad that chases after the latest political trends because she's tryin to keep up with the PC crowd and entering the "I care more than you do" race.
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
> Who, might I ask, are geek girls supposed to find a date with?
:-)
Me. I like geek girls.
> This also begs the question: why can't geek girls be supportive, compassionate, and loving?
I don't know if he meant that, per se. Fact is, though, that obsessive behavior (sometimes to the point of neglecting other, very important life details) is a pretty common trait in geeks. Ever lose track of the time when coding something, or researching some little nuance of an algorithm that has piqued your interest? I have. I can see where that could become a bone of contention in a relationship, unless both people understand what's going on. The geek in question (be it a male or female of the species) must know that that behavior is not conducive to gettin' a little lovin' once in a while. The other half of the relationship must also realize that the behavior is not intentional, and that that behavior in no way means that the geek thinks or feels less of you.
Lots of us geeks have a problem with self-image. If I had a significant other, and that person spent more time doing (whatever) than spending time with me voluntarily, I might deduce (correctly or incorrectly) that that person has found a flaw in me that is causing them to not want to spend time with me. Geek guys and geek girls are susceptible to this mindset, and some might not realize that another's obsession with computing and technology might not be an escape from their inadequacy as a partner.
That said, I've examined myself and have noted that, while I have no problem concentrating on some little bit of code I'm toying with for hours on end, or rearranging and rewiring 3+ TB of disks with about 5 minutes of thought, I cannot seem to remember to take my vitamins in the morning. Neglecting those things doesn't mean that I value them less (when I've had the mindset to take my vitamins and thyroid medication for, say, a week straight, I'm rewarded greatly - those things really do help you feel better...), but it's a quirk in my personality.
> Guys need to be willing to drop coding for a night because sometimes their partner needs them
> too.
Indeed. The question isn't whether the person values you enough to drop whatever he or she is doing, but whether the fact that he or she is needed is even realized.
Had I a significant other, I might be doing something quite geeky, walking around my apartment in my underwear (ack! the horror!) waving my hands around in a seemingly senseless dance in front of me (which is actually my using the air like an invisible whiteboard, figuring out some bit of an algorithm), and not notice that my partner was sitting on the couch, her knees drawn to her chest, staring blankly into the cushions, obviously bothered by something. It wouldn't be because I don't care for her, or that I'm insensitive to her needs, but that I've gone off on a tangent and need to be snapped back to reality.
Oh, well... too much. Gotta go out and find a geek girl to make us both unhappy (hell... I'd like someone to discuss weirdo algorithms with, bounce ideas off of her and see if she has any input that might help me...).
--Corey
Not only will they not deserve liberty or safety, Mr. Franklin, they will be DENIED both!
Aren't you being a little over-harsh here?
Do people who are exactly alike in their interests make good love interests; not in general, with some this is good, but not in general (not for the reasons Roblimo stated, but that is ok; you dont need subservience, you need a change. When you finish setting up that 200+ client BSD cluster, etc., last thing you want to come home to is "How do I do X" or "look honey I just set up a 5000 client cluster with an OS I wrote myself, and it took me 15 mintutes" instead you want to pretend computers dont exist for a while)
> One way to evaluate a woman is to take off her clothes and makeup.
no one way to evaluate women is to ignore their fancy clothes or the lack thereof, and look beyond their makeup. Very slick twisting of Roblimo's words there...
> The ideal woman is one who selflessly meets your every needs.
>The proper role for the woman is that of handservant, who considers running your bathwater to be part of a "mutually beneficial" relationship.
have you ever been in a relationship? a real one, mind you? I do not mean this as a flame, but your comment does not address the issue.
give you an example. If I just got home, and am tired as shit, and I ask my gf to get me a glass of milk SHE WILL. Why is this? A few reasons:
there is pure quid-pro-quo; she knows I would do it for her
but much more important than that is that this thing called love is involved, and she does it simply because you want it. This does not make her a slave, because if you have ever been in love, men go that far and further in the name of love... and if you want to characterize it as both individuals being slaves to the other DAMN STRAIGHT!!!
> Grown breasts are worth waiting for.
He was trying to say, if you do not find a given woman attractive, still be nice to her. Ideally you would due to human compassion, but if so you would not need reasons, that comes from inside. Roblimo was giving you the amoral (though valid) reasons to act in a moral manner.
>If a woman finds you unattractive, dump her as quickly as possible.
No matter how PC and '90s we get, somethings are inherently true, regardless of how distasteful it sounds. Having been in a relationship where I genuinely like the girl, but do not find her attractive, I can tell you it sucks. (I am not a good actor, and I did not want to hurt her) If a woman is in that position she SHOULD dump you, but she may not be able to work up the courage/ not want to hurt you. Both of you would get more hurt if it went on, so the cogent advice is to give her a hand and initiate the breakup...
quite frankly my friend, the fact that you got moderated up to 5 scares me, because it means others feel like you. It does not mean that you will hurt others necissarily; you all are much more likely to get hurt.
Have a nice day
-RS
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars --Oscar Wilde
Grrr. my nick is "Forward the Light Brigade"...
My wife is neither christian nor particularly politcal, but honestly cares about my happiness (a.k.a. love). I beleive it's for love alone that she takes the time to see my vitamins are set on my keyboard every morning, that there is an apple in my briefcase and that she comes down to my basement workshop just to see if I want a cup of coffee. It is love, not christianity, that prompts her to come by the office with an umbrella because it started to rain after I left home. Conversly, it is for love alone that I partake in a number of activities that hold no interest for me other than, 'It makes her happy'.
Most of my male friends are slashdot readers. Every one of our wives (except for the single guys, of course) are different women with different world views and opinions, even different racial backgrounds and religions. The 'old fashioned' thread that ties them all together is each has a vested interest in the happiness of their spouse. I think that's the 'old fashioned' value Rob was talking about here, not religion or politics. If that mutual respect for another's happiness isn't there, no common belief is going to keep a couple together.
I won't even try to define the average slashdot reader, but I doubt too many guys would have much trouble putting up with someone who cares about their well-being, be they christian, communist, or otherwise.
(name withheld by request)
I take issue with the way you have grouped voluntary childlessness with a lot of other baggage from your preference for platonic relationships. My wife and I have been married for 5 child-free years. It's a mutual decision that we've never had a disagreement about.
You've described a life where you have to make very few compromises- you game when you want, you bathe when you want, you whack off when you want. You have no committments- you are totally your own person, moving through life without any attachments coming between you and what you want to do. To some extent, I can understand the appeal of that. I gave up a lot of that kind of freedom when we "tied the knot".
The thing is, it was a small price to pay for the immense rewards of a *mutually* committed relationship. To put it simply, I *know* that I'm always going to have someone at my back. Someone who is looking out for me, pushing me to be a better person, helping me grow. And it goes the other way, too... I find it immensely rewarding to do the same for her. And the best part is that it's for life. (Yes, I know not all marriages work this way. Mine happens to, and I feel incredibly blessed that it does.)
But we don't have a minivan. We leave town whenever we want. I can leave computer parts lying around without worring about seeing them on a medical X-ray the next day. Most importantly, we enjoy having a lot of time for ourselves. We would have to give a lot of this up if we have kids.
From what you've written, it sounds to me like you've developed a very stereotypical viewpoint of women (they all want children) and mutually-committed relationships (biological manifest destiny). Maybe it's what's right for you. Before I found the right person, I would have been horrified at the idea of making the sacrifices I have. After I found her, I discovered that there were other things that were important to me, so changing was not a sacrifice.
My point is, don't knock something until you've tried it. Coding and gaming may be what you are optimizing your life for now, but that's based on your current preferences. You may discover some day that there are other things that you enjoy more. Unless you open yourself to that possibility, you'll never know, and could miss out on something wonderful.
And yes, I apply this to myself. My wife and I are keeping an open mind about kids, even though it's not what we want now. Who knows... anything can happen. I just hate to see people who aren't willing to consider that.
In my mostly unsuccessful quests to enter into relationships and find romantic satisfaction, I have, as have most of you I imagine, encountered all manner of Love Advice, in all cases targeted, naturally, to those who haven't been able to find what the author has clearly already found -- namely, Love.
And in all cases, all such Love Advice has the following characteristics:
- It attempts to allay fears that there is something wrong with the reader, while trying to appeal to their nagging fear that they are doing something wrong, or looking in the wrong place.
- It suggests that the solution to the reader's problem is quite simple, even if it suggests that some sort of "hard work" is involved (adding to the reader's likely sense of social ineptitude).
- It brags about the author's ability to succeed where the reader has failed (adding to the reader's likely sense of futility and bad luck).
More importantly,
- It is written by someone who did not need any Love Advice of this sort in order to so succeed,
and above all,
- It either isn't applicable to the reader's situation, or it plain doesn't work at all.
The further implications of the second to last point is that although the author thinks, through his own experience, that he has found The Answer which eludes all others. The reality is that the Love Advice written is an introspection of the author's own desires, and is a well-meant but misleading attempt to take that which worked for the author, in his situation and environment, and generalize it so that it can apply to others. This is never successful, in that what worked for the author, is quite unlikely to ever work for anyone else.
ob.antithesis:
No one ever writes "Advice for the Lovelorn _Girl._"
Irked once again,
Romulus
Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
I usually like Roblimo stuff but, umm... no. I actually found this sort of offensive. Some of us don't have any problem with women, and even if we did, probably wouldn't want to take advice from random editors on /. Contrary to popular myth, some computer people are actually well socialized people who enjoy the company of other people.
I don't mean to be offensive, but I think the thing that stroked me the wrong way was it had a patronizing tone to it. I know it was not meant/written that way, but it felt like it.
There is only one thing to keep a woman yours:
Oral sex and lots of it.
I'm getting really sick of this crap that all people with hi-tech IT jobs have to be loveless geeks with no social graces. It's simply not true.
It's been a consistent story on Wired and other news sources. Now I have Slashdot telling me how to pick up women?
Execute? [Y/N] _
I hate to me-too this post, but I couldn't agree more. This article has to be the biggest load of shit I have ever seen on Slashdot, or in any other publication I have respect for.
Roblimo may want a wife as a long term prostitute, but hopefully most of us are looking for a real soulmate. I don't want a woman to be "there for me" whenever I want her, I want to be there for her just as much. Obviously the interests don't have to be the same, but I sure as hell want a woman who I feel is my intellectual equal, and that probably means geeky.
If anything this article agrees with one of my long time cynisisms: the best way to get women is to be a complete asshole.
I think Jon Katz should be proud that Slashdot is around to publish this shit, because it would be censored in just about any real world media.
-
I had a psych of personality book that basically said "marry your opposite"
I think that most of the problems some geek guys have with the idea of dating a female geek come down to some form of insecurity. Either they want the gorgeous babe to take back to their high school reunion as a "who's sorry now?", or they are afraid of being "beaten by a girl" and don't want an intellectual equal around, or (this seems to be the most frequent) they are disturbed by having a SO who has a lot of male friends and/or gets along quite swimmingly with their friends. For someone who is socially insecure as it is, that can be pretty threatening.
"Somebody exploded a letter-bomb today
I know some geek guys who have their act together, but many of them are still in Lost Boy mode (even my own boyfriend falls slightly into this category, though he is at least in school full-time). And I certainly wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't seem to understand that swearing at one's manager is a real good way to get fired
One thing that is absolutely non-negotiable in my relationship is that my boyfriend WILL live outside his mom's house without me before any prospect of living together or marriage. I haven't lived at my parents' house for more than two weeks since I was 16, and I've been (mostly) financially independent for two years. I have a friend, something of a big-sister figure, who is separating from her husband after she put him through school (and it apparently took him something like 10 years to finish). This isn't cool. Self-respecting adults need to be involved with other self-respecting adults, not Lost Boys (or Lost Girls, for that matter).
"Somebody exploded a letter-bomb today
Considering this thing will get over 400 replies, I don't think it was a wasted post.
You don't have to email me, I'm probally too young for you anyway. But I'd just like to say that I understand what your a saying. I'm introverted and when your a teenager, it's hard to deal with that. It was very comforting to read about all these other people who are also like me, and it's given me some confidence. Your comments have also made me more aware of those girls who seem to just sorta fade into the background. Anyway, I'll finish this up with a joke I read on /. a day ago or so:
How can you tell an extroverted software engineer?
He looks at your shoes when he talks to you.
Being opposed to ethical anthrocentrism isn't a Luddite view, it's the only one in keeping with science and logic. And understanding that certain technologies have a negative environmental impact, and preferring the development of those that don't, isn't a Luddite view, it's the proper application of scientific and technical knowledge for the best long-term benefit.
Combining science, logic, long-term thinking, and compassion is no threat to the human speicies - it's the only hope our species has for survival.
(Since this has nought to do with lovelorn geeks, if anyone wants to discuss these points further I suggest e-mail - remove "spambefuddler-" from the address above.)
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
I think too much attention seems to be focused on finding someone. You've gotta be able to enjoy life on your own before you can enjoy it with someone else.
I am a geek girl in a happy relationship with a geek guy. We both spend time doing geeky stuff, but we know when we need to spend time with eachother too. (to be redundant, I must reiterate... just because we are geeks, doesn't mean we are inconsiderate bastards).
As with many geeks, my high school experience was not a terrible success. I had friends, but I was certainly not a desirable candidate for the gf role. So what? I learned a lot of cool stf, and made some good friends.
When I came to university, I didn't look to find an SO... I looked to find friends. And being in the minority of a cs program at univ, all of my friends are guys. They are equals. And one of my friends became my bf. It wasn't a forced manhunt, it was a natural attraction between two equals, two individuals, two multi-talented-interesting people. And that's why it works so well. We can respect eachothers headspace. We are friends.
The things I wanted fufilled weren't rigorous or difficult. I wanted an equal, who treated me as an equal, who was fun to be with, and made me smile. Someone I just felt really good being around. That sort of natural attraction that can't be manufactured. Intelligence and personality were truly the most important.
There are other geek girls AND non-geek girls like this. If someone is really worth being with, they won't care that you don't look like the ideal wo/man. And you'd be surprised how attractive most people really are, once you drop the idea of prefection. ;)
---
I hope you're not pretending to be evil while secretly being good. That would be dishonest.
"Many" geek girls are unloving, inconsiderate? Many PEOPLE are like that. But most? All? The implication in the original article was that ALL geek girls are like that. Thus, criticism in the post to which you responded.
So many men are looking for a selfless handservant, who doesn't take, only gives. Point: Those women will BORE YOU given time. Sure, I give, but I also take. And I can take it if he spends a majority of his life at the computer, but I'll yell at him if it means he's neglecting me.
The "evaluation via nude appearance" thing is satirical; I won't bother.
The "women"/"girls" problem: the atuthor of the article used these referents, which may imply that he sees the women you can't get as mature and the girls you can get as immature, not yet fully females, etc.
Dumping an woman who finds you unattractive...how do you know she does? And wouldn't this be related more to other problems? And why would she be with you if she didn't want to?
Maybe Robin's personal preference IS to act nice to geek girls in case they grow nice breasts. But are these words to live by...for all of us? Or just for him? If it's just for him, then why is he telling us to do it? And if it's for "us," then what's a female geek to do "I must, I must, I must increase my bust"? (Oh, by the way, you may notice that the girl, Jessica, whom he wished he'd gotten, was a geek. Breaking Rule #!, Robin! None of them uppity geek chix!)
No. Nobody's perfect. But the author of the post to which you responded was pointing out the hypocrisy/contradiction among the implications of the pieces of advice in the article.
The "void" thing -- no judgments here. Some people are happy alone, some aren't, some are dependent on others for happiness, or so they believe. Men, women, all of us. But Uncle Robin's advice simply feeds/buys into the stereotype that women are like this, that we need men for happiness.
And yes, we can ignore his advice. And we should, some of it, because IT'S BAD ADVICE. Sure, some of it's good, some of it's bad. Many of the critics here have acknowledged and praised the good advice in the article. What's wrong with criticism? One post may criticize, another may praise, even by the same poster. It has a valid place in Slashdot discussions, in any discussion.
Ceterum censeo Microsoftam esse delendam.
By the way, the endless comparisons of women and computers/software were really asinine. Fancy box? Not open-source? Please.
Ceterum censeo Microsoftam esse delendam.
now, many of your "life/relationship wisdom" nuggets are good ones, but quite a bit of the
overtone is outdated and frankly a bit sexist.
I think people need to lighten up. A good dose of sexism is fun and healthy... as long as it is taken somewhat lightly.
Sure, I am sexist, I admit it. I think there are inherent differences between how men and women behave and react to certain situations. Those differences can be funny, and there is no reason to pretend they do not exist.
I also feel a need to, and enjoy "protecting" the women I date.
I still believe in "ladies first", and when walking arm in arm, the man should walk on the street side. I will open doors and shiver in the cold after giving away my jacket. Maybe it potrays a sense of fragility that is not present for woman, but I enjoy doing these things... call me a caveman.
I like bitching about women and their ways, and I enjoy hearing others bitch about men and their ways. I like going out with the "guys" on occasion... and then being made fun of for the stupid things we do. I also enjoy making fun of her when she goes out with the "gals", and the stupid things they do.
Sexism is fine... as long as there is mutual respect.
Parody using generalizations, yet putting a few valid points in doesn't always come off perfect.
..." syndrome some of the men I know have endured. I have met less females than men who have went through the experience of developing a crush on a friend and not having it recipocated.
Sorry if I offended you, Roblimo's post had the same sort of generalisations - yet made some valid points.
Rob's valid points were to be yoursdelf, and not to set standards too high or you may be overlooking a perfect girl for you simply because she does not look like the girl of your dreams.
My point was to the girls, that you can not sacrifice your own independence for a man, and that there are some men out there, perhaps Rob included who need a woman to care not just about them, but for them. These men are what I was refering to as Mama's Boys.
Also the point about a bar as a meeting place, the bar can be a fine place to dance, and even have a relaxing drink - but it is not a place to meet a lover or a partner. You want to meet a person when you are of clear mind to genuinely assess thier character.
And with regards to the statement about men all wanting to sleep with thier female friends - that was obvious in its lack of sincerity. Friends make the best lovers - and best mates. There is a trust there. What that waas is a parody of the "you are such a good friend
The last couple lines should have made the parody of the whole thing more clear, but still there was a point there. If you feel you are lacking in self-confidence and you decide to play the part, self-confidence often follows. Same with when you are out with friends, if you are having an awfully dull time, act like you are having fun, and soon enough, you will be.
It is a simple little axiom, but we reap what we sow, if you want a fun loving, self-confident partner, you are more likely to find that partner if you are fun-loving and self-confident.
Who you are attracts a certain type of partner. I am sure a man like you will have no trouble atracting a woman who likes a creative, secure man.
After all, you must have confidence to admit being a mama's boy!! - Just kidding.
--
That was exactly what I was thinking. All this post -- and many of the comments -- proved is that geeks are just as fucking stupid as other guys are. Show women some respect, you bastards. They're human beings, just like you.
--
Matt Singerman
Matt Singerman
http://matt.vegan.net/
And will I follow suit after Sig and dispense with my karmic powers..? Hmm. So, enough with the pointless rhetoric:
(warning: this post was inspired by Sig's request and done out of total boredom.. if you read this post, you do so at your own risk)
To be quite honest, I'm not looking for anything in the ``geek community''. That would be referred to as ``limiting my options''. I look for females in the general population of humanity. I know, it's scary, and difficult to narrow down, much less make a decision, but after a while your filters are pretty finely honed. ;)
First I should begin by saying that unlike some others, my first love is not hacking. It's creative thought. I do a lot of writing, though only when I feel moved to for some reason or another. With regards to song lyrics or poetry, it's only when I'm feeling especially emotional (my best stuff is rather depressing, but hey). I also like developing game worlds, characters, creatures, just about anything that has to do with the inner workings of an rpg. Naturally this is an extension of the fact that I used to like writing stories more than I do now. :)
That said, it is indeed a necessity that the person I am likely to want to spend a significant amount of life with would have to share a number of interests with me. It sort of has to be that way, or else you can't really relate to one another. However, those who really have no other interests besides programming are true computer geeks, and really need to get a life. And yeah, there's a big difference between hackers, programmers, and computer geeks. =P (for me, personally, I wouldn't want a programmer (or related term) because the other key topics of interest for me are more of a requirement, and if they were a programmer or whatever on top of that as well, we'd probably be too damn similar.. which is not so good.. disclaimer: this has never been tested in practice, only in theory)
I am most attracted to those women who take a great interest in creative things, such as writing, roleplaying (I can even deal with those who like to play Magic, even though I personally detect the game ;) -- especially White Wolf stuff, and anything else that involves being imaginative. I also happen to be extremely emotional, and have a rather off sense of humor. So another requirement is that the woman in question sort of has to grasp my sense of humor (which is exemplified by the fact that I've seen Army of Darkness between 500 and 1000 times, and am still not sick of it.. how I managed to find a woman who has done the same is really mind-boggling.. other good examples would be Squee! and JTHM by Jhonen Vasquez.. both are really good), and must be supportive, patient, and understanding.
And since my tastes are rather rarified, and I'm also rather sensitive, I have trouble dealing with women who are overly abrasive, or uncaring. I like nice, sweet girls. This is not to say that I mind profanity (who the fuck does? you can, however, get too vulgar at times.. I don't like to feel ill ;), or that I'm some sort of prim and proper type (actually, I prefer those who are rather daring, and am a classic example of a good number of ``counter culture'' values). Perhaps this part is too hard for me to explain?
However, while I disdain the thought of chasing after other hacker types, I must admit that anyone who is completely clueless with a computer is not likely to be someone I can relate to on a long-term basis. They don't have to be some sort of uber geek who sits around on the Internet for extended periods of time amassing huge collections of.. ok, screw that explanation. Point is, the girl should at least be familiar with a computer as a user. I don't care if they can program the damn thing, but.. you know. (after all, I spend a good deal of time with my computer, so I might be bothered by the idea of a complete and total lack of interest/cluefulness with regards to what I'm doing.. it's sort of boring to be excited about something you saw on the net and have no one to say anything about it to :)
First and foremost, however, I expect honesty. I'm almost unnaturally direct and honest about just about everything, and I don't take well to being lied to. Truth and honor.. things that are too often forgotten in this world of ours. Broken promises and out and out lies are the two most common reasons for me ditching a girl. ;)
To sum it up, intelligence and personality are the two key ``umbrella'' qualities. As long as the woman is ``cute'', it doesn't matter too much how attractive they are physically, because attractiveness is determined by their overall personality (which is not overshadowed by their appearance unless they are flat out repulsive.. this is an unfortunate fact.. I wish it weren't so, but the truth is there). Basically, I sort of need someone with whom I can actually talk to (``dumb'' girls (or guys, for that matter) simply aren't very intellectually stimulating, and a long term relationship.. it's just not there..), and who actually cares about me (duh).
Ok, screw it again. I'm tired of explaining this (you can tell I didn't write this in a linear fashion.. hee hee). I'll just sum up my general thoughts of the article with a couple of key points: You should find someone who appreciates you for who you are, and whom you appreciate for who they are. You find who you are meant for, you don't change others or yourself to suit the other. The puzzle fits together, or it doesn't. Plain and simple. Having around a half to 2/3 or even 3/4 the same common interests is ok. Having less or more.. probably bad. You want to be able to relate to one another and also be interested and intrigued in one another. You want to be with someone you can talk to, not someone with whom you feel like you're talking to yourself.
All in all, ``Roblammo'' brought up some good points, and a lot of poor ones. I won't bother going through the article line by line, however.. I just don't have the time and/or inclination. Ha! (I'm not even editing this post.. fear)
~ Kish
..see that second sentence next to "News for Nerds"? The one that says, yeah, "Stuff that Matters"? You'll note that this doesn't say "Stuff that Matters to", say, "Kitsune Sushi". I may not care about half or more of the "crap" that gets posted to Slashdot. It matters to someone, though, or else it wouldn't have gotten posted. Not everything on this site is news. Or do you think Ask Slashdot is all about the latest uber geek news? heh.
~ Kish
"Homogenius": a deft play on words, or a spelling error in desperate need of correction? You be the judge.
Seriously, though, I have to disagree that geeks as a group compare to a certain kind of milk. =P It all depends on the chemistry of your personality, really. I, for example, enjoy all sorts of creative thought, love to write (poetry, prose, song lyrics, whatever), roleplay, drool for long periods of time while playing around on the net (er.. oops.. didn't mean to add that one), etc. I would probably think myself to be in some sort of hell if I fell in love with someone else interested in programming, but brilliant, creative women.. That I can relate to.. and enjoy doing so.
I'd like to assert that if you're looking for someone who just looks good, getting into a relationship with that person is a bad idea. After all, if you're only interested in the material, and that feeling is probably being reciprocated (or else the girl/guy is a sucker), then you probably don't want to be mutually exclusive. =P
They do..? *falls out of his chair, woozy, starting to look a little ill..* Personally, I don't need nor want a rocket scientist, and so long as the girl is "cute", I'm not likely to obsess over aesthetics. After all, I'm looking for personality, not just.. well, heh. The thing I find most distasteful about looking for dates in the real world is you're obviously going to be drawn to who you find the most attractive, which is rather unlikely to be the person who's personality you're going to find the most agreeable, compatible, attractive, etc.
Your wish.. is my command.. This could take a while, however, so I'm not going to include it in this comment. ;)
~ Kish
I applaud this article, however,
There is a danger in having a girlfriend who knows next to nothing about computers: they don't understand why you need to spend so much time behind the monitor. They feel a little alienated and somehow as if the computer deserves more attention than them. The author says that you should look for a woman that is willing to accept that you spend these long periods of time, but I can tell you that those are far and few in between.
Also, if they don't know/care, it can be difficult for them to understand your world. And who ever said that other coders (your girlfriend in this case) are your competitors. I don't consider my other geek friends my competitors... Of course, it's true that she'd be likely to be busy with her own things, and there'd be even less time toghether.
Still, I agree with a lot of things in this article. Looks aren't everything, and I'd rather have someone who I could have an intelligent conversation with than some girl that is only beautiful.
Cheers!
The Official Steve Ballmer Webpage
As a generalisation women may be more complex, but if you get into specifics, i hear sendmail is pretty complex....
Too scary for me to go near
I have to agree with her. I'm a geekgirl also, and personally, I'd rather have someone just like me, instead of someone completely the opposite. I'd want to have a guy that actually new what I was talking about and is into computers. Now, that doesn't mean they have to be someone where computers are their life, but at least they have interest in them and don't mind when I talk about computers all the time, especially since that's what I do for my job (sys admin). I don't feel like it would be a competition at all, why would it be? In fact I think it would be fun to set up a home network together with a significant other, it's not like we'd be competing for a computer. (I mean I have about 4 of them anyway right now.)
:)), dont' be the smooth talker, again, just be yourself, don't be afraid to confront us (you don't know how many times people have told me that they have no idea why I've been single so long, but its because no one confronts me), if have you to break up with her, DO IT IN PERSON, don't wimp out and do it on the phone, or online, that's the worst thing you could do. I've dated a geek guy before, and I think it would worked out fine. Just because we are geeks to doesn't mean we don't like to hug or fool around less than other girls, in fact I think we like to do that stuff even more than non-geek girls! We do other things besides computers all day. I like to think of myself as a well-rounded individual thats a jack of all trades, but master of none.
But, I do have to say that most of everything that "Uncle Robin" I would agree with though. A lot of that is good advice. Some main rules: DON'T USE PICKUP LINES (there's nothing we hate more), just be yourself (we think its cute if your nervous
Overall, just be yourself, there's nothing better you can do than that!
Tony Shepps understood the spirit of Roblimo's article perfectly. You haven't done anything other than repeat what he said.
> The ideal woman is one who selflessly meets your every needs.
Being in love with someone is being *willing* to selflessly meet your partners needs. This comes from within and isn't the terrible thing you seem to think it is.
That would be right, except that Roblimo advises one not to look for a geek girl because she'll be too busy hacking on computers to service your needs. Rather, find a girl willing to service your needs while you hack on your computers.
> Be nice to geeky looking girls, just in case they grow up and look good.
The moral of that story is "Be nice to everyone, 'cause that ugly duckling may just be the lovely swan
Don't you get it? This is precisely what he takes offense against: being nice to someone just in case they turn out to be good looking.
and don't do to others what you don't like them doing to you."
Yes, but this sentiment wasn't present in Roblimo's aritcle.
That I never, ever, ever end up in a relationship with a guy who's been nice to me "in spite of" my looks, my personality, or my intelligence just on the off chance that I'd turn out to be really hot someday. Or one who doesn't want to date geek chicks because they won't be "there for him" when he needs them.
/. because they'll be too busy coding in times of emotional need, wouldn't geek guys be the same?
Incidentally, how does this apply to geek guys? If one is not supposed to date programming chicks who post on
Marissa, one of the many defenders of geek womanhood
I'm having difficulty imagining a woman who would feel comfortable hearing something like that from a man she wasn't already seriously involved with. If you say something like this to a woman you've just met, she'll probably either be seriously creeped out or she'll assume it's a lame pick-up line.
I doubt Roblimo's article is really going to help anyone do better with women. You don't improve your social skills by reading about them. You just have to get out there and relate to real people and learn from your experiences.
Hey, I have nothing but respect for everyone that writes for /. but this article is just sick and wrong. I suppose it's good advice if your goal in life is to get laid on a regular basis. I thought most /. readers were above that. My advice to /. readers: rewarding, fulfilling relationships are much easier if you: * Don't make sex your goal * Don't objectify the people you have relationships with * Don't think of it as "dating"
I'm a first-year college student, and I've proudly called myself a geekgirl since the first time I heard the term used. What I seem to have noticed in general relationships, not even romantic ones, is that as long as I can be big-eyed and say "uhuh" to whatever someone deigns to give me advice on, and not let on that I've read the manual and the documentation, sometimes I'll get good answers to questions. But the minute they walk into my dorm room and see me happily coding away or [oh horrors] playing Quake, I become an intimidating presence.
It's the old "She's smart for a woman, how'd she get that way" bit again.
Yes, I am introverted, but the coolest guys I meet are too. The best conversations I've had since Orientation all began "FreeBSD or Linux?" or "What'd you think of Ender's Game?", never "Where're you from?" or "What's your major?" I don't think I'm that threatening, either as a girl/woman or as a geek, so smile and say hi!
just my random thoughts...
Ok.. lets get this straight.. I for one am a female and A)not a christian (not that its bad to be one) B) not a feminist and c) love my boyfriend of 4 years who is a total computer geek. I totally thought the article was RIGHT ON. My boyfriend and I hardly discuss anything about the computer because thats what he does on his own time and I do what I want to on my own time. I dont ask him to dress like he came out of GQ and I totally respect his love for code (love hate.. :)) I know that being a computer geek is part of his personality and frankly, I love it. I think its interesting to learn new things from him and by me not being a computer geek, he has a chance to learn things from me as well. I think the article was completely right on.. take if from me I am dating a guy who used to spend about 18 hours out of his day on the computer.. there is hope.. :)
I definitely have a preference for breast size - I won't mention what it is. But my favorite breasts are my wife's. Not because they're large, medium, or small, but because they're HERS. Take hers and put them on someone else, and in the long run they're not interesting to me.
The point is that, if we're thinking, feeling people, we look beyond the superficial and fall in love with the REAL PERSON. We value who they are, and what they look like becomes less and less important, only important in that it is a part of them.
Believe me, I'm not offended by Robin's preferences. I'm offended that he considers them so important that, in an essay on what to look for in a relationship, he made them the subject of over half of what he wrote. And in that particular case, he was basically saying that you should be nice to the ugly, not because you should be nice in general, but because they might someday be good-looking. His reasoning follows that if you knew in advance that they'd still be ugly in ten years, you'd have no reason to be nice to them.
I got news for ya. In the long run, we're ALL ugly. In 10 years, 20 years, 30 years YOU will be the ugly one. After 20 years of gravity and infant feeding, those breasts won't be so pretty. If we're lucky, the majority of our lives will not be spent looking young and beautiful. If we're wise, those ugly years will still be meaningful, and we will not spend our time pining for the beautiful days.
Anyway, I guess you haven't been on a college campus and met those women looking for their "MRS". But that's basic biology and you don't seem to like that.
Not only have I been on a college campus and met those women, I've seen the result of those sorts of marriages in the long term. The current film "American Beauty" sums those marriages up extremely well -- full of empty accomplishments, missing most of what's really important in life.
To say that husband-hunting is the result of basic biology -- that's even more offensive than Roblimo, who simply took his personal preferences and assumptions about the world and applied them to everyone. To you, the MRS women aren't merely trying to satisfy a societal preference, they're hard-wired to do so. Doesn't it bother you that that very thinking has been used to excuse the very worst of all human behaviors in history?
Just a reality check for all of you out there. I'd like to hear what both sexes are looking for in the geek community... I suspect the answers will suprise both sides.
--
while I believe you meant it lightly, I'll join the crowd of people who are calling it dangerous. while you are older than many of us who are making our way out into higher education/the workplace, I don't think this excuses your frankly outdated views. yes, it's nice to be taken care of, and to take care of someone in return. however, your lighthearted advice doesn't quite conceal a few (probably subliminal) biases in your mind. I'm not trying to flame you, but in the interests of the women out there, you might want to take a look at what I have to say. I'm very interested in your response, so please email or post back.
:)
:)
1. "don't waste your time on geek girls"
this holds two rather interesting assumptions - a) everyone who's reading this is either a) a heterosexual male or b) a homosexual female. as neither, I found the title quite striking. am I really a waste of time? my s.o. doesn't seem to think so, oddly enough.
2. "wouldn't it be nice if you found a woman who shares your interests? NO."
well, as you said in the post I'm responding to, you say your wife is a "talented artist and an adept computer user". apparenly she at least understands what you do, assuming that that's computers. one could also suppose that, forming a balanced, healthy relationship, you also share some interests of hers, perhaps in guns or art. while doing things outside of your normal sphere is healthy and interesting, see how long you can spend with a person who shares no interests with you. at least for me, that's not very long.
3. "She'd be obsessively coding or posting on Slashdot herself, and would brush you off when you needed her. What you really want is a woman who will be there for you when you get tired of staring at your monitor and need some loving, but will leave you alone and not demand your attention when you're busy."
rather one-sided, is it not? you reserve the right to interrupt her at any time, but you don't want her to do the same in return? I admit that this can be a problem in a geek-geek relationship, but I've seen it be even more of a problem in a geek-nongeek relationship. at least a geek understands when you're REALLY busy, and will keep you from working ALL the time, but allow you to get what is truly important done. it simply requires understanding.
4. "Men involved in activities that demand long periods of intense concentration (programmers, artists, writers, musicians, etc.) need women who will respect what they do and help them do it well, not women who compete with them."
so I am competition? for what? perhaps if a person is obsessed with being THE best at whatever she/he does, they would have a problem having a relationship with someone who also shared those interests. perhaps it is that person who has a problem, and not the geek commmunity at large. this is not a view I would expect in the nineties, but rather in the fifties. it harks back to the fear that boys have of meeting a girl who is better/smarter/tougher than they are, because they expect to be better/smarter/tougher by virtue of their sex. I, at least, look for a mate I respect highly, and if their proficiency is in my field, that is not a detractor.
5. "There are plenty of these women out there. They're as eager to find you as you are to find them."
the WWN would suggest otherwise
6. "instead of wasting your time on women with whom you cannot possibly build a long-term, mutually beneficial relationship"
who do you mean? the geek girls? I'd hope we are not to be dismissed from consideration so lightly.
7. "If I want to discuss PC hardware I do it with male friends, not with my wife."
I'd hate to assUme, but perhaps you have not had any sort of a relationship with a geek girl, including any sort of friendship. we may be "one of the guys" in some ways, but since we are certainly not male, I assume you're not referring to one of us. perhaps you will someday. we're not all bad.
8. "she'll let you know that, too (so you can dump her before you get too serious)"
if she finds you unattractive, she'll dump you, generally. no need for Macho Man to do it for her, so I would avoid jumping to conclusions.
9. "She took longer than most to develop in the chest department, but the results were worth waiting for."
as much as guys seem to be obsessed by breasts, I can't bring myself to believe you meant this as you phrased it. I don't agree with the general sentiment either, but you have a right to your opinion.
10. "Understanding women is harder than figuring out the hardest computer game, harder even than setting up a secure 200-client network running *BSD"
same goes for guys, you know.
now, many of your "life/relationship wisdom" nuggets are good ones, but quite a bit of the overtone is outdated and frankly a bit sexist. I'm not trying to insult you, that's just the way it looks to me, a geek girl of a younger generation. perhaps I've misinterpreted you, but that's neither here nor there.
I really do hope someone writes that woman piece, or even a balancing male piece, since many guys I know don't share many of your views (and brought this article to my attention becasue they were quite PO'd on my behalf).
Lea (real email: chialea@cory.eecs.berkeley.edu)
I don't think that Roblimo was trying to dismiss entire populations with a wave of his hand, but I do understand why a few women have posted comments being upset at him about the perception that he is doing so.
:-) The problem he is trying to address is that so many guys/men only look for geek women, only look for Beautific Babes, or, worse yet, only look for Beautific Geek Babes (wow... talk about long odds; I go to a fricken' huge university and there aren't more then one or two Beautific Geek Babes around here!), that they overlook the other 90% of the population. Constraining yourself to 10% of the population from the get go, and shrinking it from there to "decent girls" (and Roblimo's right to the extent that Beautific Babes have a negative correlation with a good personality, which makes things even worse), is not a good way to suceed in this scenario, and as a resul guys retreat into fantasy land of what things will be like Real Soon Now instead of taking the opportunities presenting themselves Right Now.
This was basically guy talk here, so don't read too much into it
If Roblimo was going to write something that would offend nobody, it would be at least twice as long and therefore twice as likely not to be read. (OK, OK, that's glib, but it's at least generally true.) He made some generalizations in the process of trying to quickly debunk other people's generalizations; to make them think about their own preconcieved notions by presenting them with other ideas. It's a Good Thing; I'm suspect Roblimo would be the last to claim that this was The Final Word on this topic.
The reader is expected to take the opportunity to, ummmm, I don't know what verb to put here, take? a Babe or Geek if the opportunity presents, but to look beyond that anyhow.
(Me? I'm extremely happily engaged to a zoologist, who has a basic understanding of computing but still has no idea why I get paid what I do for being a good webmaster. If I'd stuck to local geek girls, I'd have never gotten anywhere. More people need to realize that this may be true for them too. It's not necessarily true for everybody, but it is for some.)
Yeah, like most geeks know what they're looking for in a relationship? They may think that they want someone who's obsessed with computers, star wars, RPGs, but how interesting is a relationship like that going to be? And how many of them are going to come to that realization before they realize "wow, this chick slept with me, I think I'll marry her"?
Or, how many get crushes (on that goth girl at the next table at lunch (and convince themselves that's a perfect person since they have so much to talk about that's different and so much to share), and end up dating them for several months only to come to the realization that there's not a single thing holding the relationship together than "gee, this girl and I have nothing to talk about and nothing to do together, since we live in completely different worlds."
Geeks DON'T know what they want in a relationship, which is why most of their relationships blow chunks (or never even get started, for that matter). And a guide on "How To Be a Normal Human Being 101 by Roblimo, Master of Suaveness" isn't going to help them get to grips with the fact that the REAL secret to successful relationships is to:
GET OFF YOUR ASS AND GET OUT THERE AND START TALKING TO PEOPLE.
Things will happen from there. If you're in high school, sign up for clubs besides Math Team, Quiz Bowl, and the Honor Society. Join a sport (track is always recruiting), or the theatre group (and don't just be a techie, TRY out for a part, for Pete's sake), or anything artsy. If you're in college, go to meetings besides the comic/sci-fi/fantasy club. While Killer and Magic: The Gathering may be a great game to play on weekends, there are much more fun ways to be spending your time that involve the Real World.
-Chris
So obviously it's not OK to stereotype men. But stereotyping women is fine and dandy? I don't think so, and evidently I'm not the only one. I did feel that the article was something of a slam against geek girls and against intelligent women in general, though I know it wasn't intended as such. In some ways, the fact that it WAS so unintentional makes it all the more dangerous IMHO. The Mars-and-Venus books and crap like The Rules make it very clear to women that if they have brains, they're supposed to hide them if they every want to catch a man (which is, of course, the overriding goal of all women, right?)
Having this perpetuated on Slashdot, even in fun, shows me (and apparently a lot of other
"Somebody exploded a letter-bomb today
I'm currently living with my best friend. We've known each other for >10 years, and I've asked her out during that time, but she wasn't interested. She still ain't. Never will be. (You know the old saying, "if a woman don't sleep with you in the first 10 years, she probably never will?") Apart from the occasional hug of sympathy when Shit Happens, we've never laid a finger on each other. Certainly nothing sexual.
Now that we've hung out for 10-odd years, I can see it's just as well - a year or so ago, she told me she wanted to have kids someday, something which I find horrific. (Hey geeks, if you think women are buggy, try kids! If your pet dog knocked things over everywhere it went, and spent two years pissing and shitting all over itself, and thought that puking on your shoulder was a nice way to say "hello", you'd probably have it put down! Somehow when sproggen do it, it's considered "cute". Sigh.)
"So where's the sex?", I hear you cry. Gentlemen (and ladies, hey, these roles can just as easily be reversed), evolution provided you with all the equipment you require for orgasm. A hint: mix genitals and hands. Your built-in feedback system should take care of the rest.
Back to my platonic friend, roommate, and for lack of a better term, love o' my life. Having her around has been a breath of fresh air. Someday she'll find Mr. Right and move on. But in the meantime, my rent's been cut in half, and I have a dinner companion whenever I want one. When the day comes that she moves on, I'll happily revert to bachelorhood.
Happily? Yeah, happily. Fact is, there ain't too many women out there who don't want sprog, so the odds of me finding Ms. Right are pretty much nil. So I'm outa the gene pool. Big deal. Because of this, I can go to LAN parties, play Quake and Rainbow Six 'till all hours of the night, enjoy some smut when the urge strikes, and if I feel like "going caveman" and not bothering with showering or shaving for a 3-day coding binge, hey, so be it. Life is so hard.
So let's see the suburban minivan-driving, it-seats-6-sproggen crowd top that for a lifestyle? "Sorry, we can't make it to the opera tonight, couldn't find a babysitter. Quake? It scares the kids when I turn the subwoofer on. Pr0n? I get the real thing from my wife... um, but only on her terms. Code? I remember coding all night for the hell of it. Once. Now every time I get deeply into a problem, I'm interrupted by a shriek that could shatter jello. Bratleigh wants the bottle again, either that or I'm gonna be up to my elbows in baby shit... again. But hey, at least I found a girl. I'm happy. Really."
Want companionship? Someone to love? Find a good friend and make the most of it.
Wanna fuck? Wanking is cheap, readily-available, and it's guilt-free.
To put it another way - love and sex are the evolutionarily-developed bribes to make you go through the hassle of finding a partner and raising umpteen sprog to propagate your genes. But you're a homo sapiens, fer chrissakes. That's Latin for "thinking (wo)man". You've got a huge-ass brain. Why not use it to figure out a solution that gives you the joy of being with someone you love, the pleasure of all the sex you want, and the freedom that comes with not having sproggen? Where is it written that you have to sprog, and/or that you have to get your love and sex from the same source? If you can get 'em from the same source, great (and having a good friend is a good way to start anyways) - but don't worry if you can't.
As a final note - for anyone who suggests that being childfree is somehow "immature" or "selfish", might I recommend the comics of Nina Paley?
I think it would be great to hear Debbie's story about why she picked you, and why geeks are great partners. Perhaps she could write an addition to this story giving geek guys and girls some insight?
:)
btw, Debbie is always welcome in #aftery2k
Nitrozac
If a geek girl ands geek boy have divergent interests in the realm of geekdom, it can also make things less competetive.
Like a hardware and a software geek or perhaps a sysadmin and a programmer.
You can't have too much in common as to lead to competetiveness or boredom, but a common interest in a realm - but different aspects can be quite interesting. Take it from me - that is what I have, and it rules.
How about advice for the lovelorn geekettes? The single geekettes may like some advice too on how to find that man who doesn't mind thier passion for source code.
I would have to say the best advice I can give from my experience is find a man who does not need to be cared for or mothered in any way. Find a man who considered it a treat if you bake cookies - although you would have rather translated the recipie into perl for humor sake.
A man who needs to be cared for, and needs his dinner cooked for him or he will forget to eat, with not appreciate the time you spend programming.
Find a man who lives alone, without roomates. Never takes his laundry home to his mom, infact preferable lives in a different city than his mom. Mama's boys are looking for a girl who will take care of him just like mom did except with the extra of sex.
Don't go for the best looking man on the block unless all you want is a superficial cheating ego-maniac. Trophy boyfriends are for women like Melanie Griffith and Cher. They are just a waste of time. What women wants a man who takes more time getting ready to go out than she does. If a man is dressed to well, either his mama dressed him or his girlfriend does.
Also, if you are more of a programmer, do not date a fellow programmer. He WILL compete with you. Men are threatened by the possibility of anyone, man or women being better than they are. Any illusions of working on a program together are shattered the first time that either of you finds a flaw in the other's source code.
A programming girl needs a man who can cook his own annd even her dinner occasionally. Although two programmers may be able to afford fast food and takeout frequently, it is not the best solution.A man who has lived alone should be able to cook at least a few staples.
Meeting a man like this, an independent man, may seem like an impossible task. Here is a couple tips on how and where to find him. First of all he won't be at the bar. There are only two types at the bar, the vain ones who are looking for a one night stand, and the mama's boys who are too shy to talk to a girl. Let friendship be your guide, male and female friends are always willing to set up single friends. Become friends first, then later lovers. Men are more relaxed than women with making the transition from friends to lovers. You rarely hear from men the statement "You are such a good friend, I wouldn't want to ruin it by sleeping with you." Men want to sleep with almost all of thier female friends.
And teenage geekettes, don't worry, your self confindence with bloom, as will you body. I was flat as a board until I was 19. I look great now. The biggest advice I can give to a girl is if you don't have self confidence, fake it! If you saren't having fun, fake it! Self-selfconfident men are attracted to self-confident women.
And you don't want a mama's boy.
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Well, I don't think it was patronizing. Unnecessary perhaps. The issues aren't a cultural anomoly in geekdom.... It's systemic. I don't think his article meant to challenge whether or not geeks were doable on the carnal adventure scale, but rather to point out (and thus reduce needless suffering) that the geek profile for wanting "geek girls" hurts you culturally as a defined social group of men. ..because you miss out, probably because ultimately you tend to declassify non-geek fielded female intellectuals as being less or silly or ___... you fill in the blanks. I like the concept of not being able to change source code... and just live with it. Okay, so he could have said... "Guys, quite you're whining... moaning and quite wasting your non-work lives on mainlining your computer 24/7... there be women in those trees, and a whole lot more fun than computers (no, say it isn't so!) in their own different ways.... Let it feel some way knew, and pleasurable. Signed, Phoenix : Female,artist/writer and recovering from two ex-geek husbands (guys of some note and coding fame!)
I'm seeing a lot of posts here that I think are a but unfair against the author. Just because he's touting this as advice for the "Lovelorn Geek" does not mean all lovelorn geeks are his target audience. Naturally each and every "geek" will have his own level of social abilities and may or may not need any of this advice. Figure it out.
Some of his advice did sound a bit "old school" or un-PC to some of you, but face it: there are both men and women out there who would be perfectly happy in such a relationship. They're not trying to oppress feminism, they're just trying to get into a "traditional" relationship, which may have been the way they've been raised. Personally, that isn't me, but the advice STILL APPLIES.
I've sought and dated a couple of "geek" girls in my time, and I doubt that I would intentionally seek out another. It's not that we didn't get along great or didn't have a good time while we were together, but these women didn't *challenge* me in the ways I wanted to be challenged. Now, I'm not saying that there *aren't* geek girls out there who can still geek it up but have an immensely healty appetite in other things, but in my experience a person tends to only have one major hobby, and if computers are it, computers are it. When you put two of these types geeks together in the same place for the rest of their lives, you (as a pair) tend to lack any desire to do anything else but geek.
Find a woman that's your *complement*, not your *supplement*. Nobody's perfect, and if you can find a partner that is strong in the areas you are weak, and you can accept and love each other despite (or by way of) those inconsistencies, together you can do anything.
THAT's the kind of relationship I want, and his advice applies.
It's like women are not even people to the author... just some kind of ``pleasure automata'' to serve, not dissimilar to those computers which give so much satisfaction. A few choice quotes:
``I want a wife who'll give me a blowjob, rub my feet, and have dinner ready for me when I get home from a long day of hacking. I'd like a wife who is my personal slave, because, hey, that's all marriage really is.''
How's that for a big sweeping generalization, (All glamorous women ``aren't worth it,'') coupled with objectification. (Women == software.)
Yeah, because really the issue here is how male geeks can get chicks without changing any aspect of themselves! Obviously our author can't think outside of his box...
``But you know, no woman would stand a chance of giving the same satisfaction as running a beowulf cluster,'' as if women and computers are even remotely comparable in some way.
``In fact, I originally though about GPLing our marriage, but wasn't too fond of the free distribution clause, so settled on a proprietary fork of BSD.''
The primary trouble with geeks meeting people is not so much any misunderstandings of social etiquette and (possibly lack of) associated skills, but the unwillingness to stop thinking of the external world in terms of a computer-related mindset. The above article does nothing to persuade its readers to move beyond the ``all the world's a computer and we are but its processes'' mentality, yet ditching such a fixed and limited schema is imperative not only for meeting other people who don't share such a schema, but for personal growth and maturation.
People (including women) aren't automata, there's no ``system'' for ``getting'' them, and instead of analyzing people and trying to find the perfect one, analyze yourself and change into the person who will attract people you're interested in.
There's much more to life than computers and /.
NetBSD: the cathedral vs the bizzare.
> compete for...for what?
Cycles, bandwidth, disk space... important stuff like that.
Hmm. *ponder*
Going out with a geek girl as an excuse to upgrade the home network. Definite possibilities there 8-)
I'm married to a geek (my wife and I are both CS PhDs), and I couldn't be happier. I know many other such couples who are also happy. It is not a question of whether she uses computers, but whether she's on the same wavelength as you. Do you enjoy the same books? Can you hold each other's interest in conversation? Do you get the same jokes? Do you like the same friends? Having a close intellectual relationship, along with a close emotional relationship, can be very fulfilling.
I also find that my wife is more understanding when I do something a non-geek would consider just too wierd, like staying up until dawn hacking or playing with some new toy. She understands, 'cause she's been there.
Translation: if you are insensitive to your partner's needs, then you don't want a partner like you. We're agreed on that point, but on the same count, what would she want with you? Being a geek is no excuse for being insensitive.I find that my wife is more understanding when I do something a non-geek would consider just too wierd, like staying up until dawn hacking or playing with some new toy. She understands, 'cause she's been there. We cut each other some slack, 'cause we recognize when the other person is in that place. Also, we hack together. Each of us spends more time at the computer than a non-geek partner would consider reasonable, but since we have two linux boxes and DSL, there's no resource conflict, so what's the problem?
I can't begin to list the number of ways I find this offensive. Well, actually, I can, and will:I would like to take this oppurtunity to invite all of you to take one more look at the topic this was posted under.. What's that? It's.. humor..? That's right everyone! I'll agree, however, that if you take this article dead seriously, it's highly offensive. However, I don't think you should.
~ Kish
The problem is that the article misrepresented "geek girls" in a poor light and it did so to a very large audience. Who, might I ask, are geek girls supposed to find a date with? Your "traditional" male is frightened of geek girls due to superiority/inferiority of intellect issues and now geek males have been informed that geek girls are undesirable.
This also begs the question: why can't geek girls be supportive, compassionate, and loving? The truth is that geek females range in their capacity to fulfill these qualities just as much as your geek male. Certainly there are geek males who are compassionate. It's the blanket condemnation of geek females that is problematic.
Another /.er made the statement that a woman needs to serve the geek in question selflessly because that's what love is about: being selfless. I won't dispute that - but the original article failed to make the point that a man need be just as selfless. Guys need to be willing to drop coding for a night because sometimes their partner needs them too. Love is about give and take, and both parties need to be willing to give.
George Will: Even the continents drift.
Got to disagree with you there, Roblimo. I'll disclaim by stating that everybody has different tastes in what they're looking for in a SO, but here's my take on this one:
Find someone who can and will drag your ass out of your chair every so often. Find someone who you feel is on par with you - they don't have to know computers, but they'd better be able to hold the line in a decent discussion without all of this "well, I'm sure you know best" crap that some people seem to be stuck with (my experience is with women, but I know guys who are like this).
IMHO, the best lover and companion isn't someone who caters after you 24/7. It should be a tit-for-tat type deal; I wash, you dry. Hell, some of the best relationship moments I've had have even revolved around disagreements -- remember, competition is a Good Thing(tm). If she just lets you win all the time, you'll get soft. Of course, the caveat to this is that you both always have to know that, in the final analysis, you're always on the other person's side before anyone elses.
It's sappy, but the best example I can think of for this sort of relationship is from "Mad About You", that series with Helen Hunt and Paul Riser. Love each other, support each other, but most important: be one another's best friend.
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Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
But there's a trick to "getting girls to like you." It's not a magic potion or a pick-up line - nothing will make a girl like you. (It has to come from the heart.) But a girl can discover that they like you by getting to know you - and here's the tricky part. Be friends with girls first!
It's hard for a lot of guys, particularly guys (like me) who've, in the past, only ever struck out. But if you see a girl you like, and you want to give a relationship a chance at being real, you can't rush it. Strike up a conversation, spend time with her - and don't rush anything! Believe me, you can wait. You've done it in the past, haven't you?
The simple fact is, you wouldn't want to be intimately involved (and no, I'm not just referring to sex) with someone who you wouldn't want to be at least friends with. A relationship is about communication and openness, and those require trust - and you have to develop trust over time. Be friends with girls; not only will you gain knowledge about the way an extra X chromosome makes a human's mind work, but you might just find that people do, in fact, like you for who you are. It's not so big a jump from "She's my friend" to "She's my girlfriend," after all.
But I have problems when "Uncle Robin" excludes entire female populations from consideration. When he says, no geek girls, and don't think too much about the really pretty ones either, isn't he going against the whole idea of considering people on their own merits, as opposed to group affiliation? Granted, "pretty" girls who spend a lot of time on their outsides sometimes, maybe often, have rotten insides. But how is it that a geek girl "competes" in an unhealthful way? Don't you want someone who can UNDERSTAND when you're talking about a problem at the office/boxen/latest Linux convention? Or would you rather have a very nice girl, who is clueless when it comes to what you DO 80 hours a week, fix you some cookies and run a nice hot bath?
I mean, come ON. I'm a (pseudo)geek girl. I have a geek man. We get along famously. If anything, I'm MORE accepting of his computer obssession because I share some of it. A woman who doesn't Get It may not Get You.
Just, all I'm saying is, don't just banish us from consideration with a flick of the finger because we're too much like you, or might compete for...for what?
Ceterum censeo Microsoftam esse delendam.
If you thought this was smart, please avoid books on NLP and head straight for Erving Goffman, whom you can thank for ideas like "personal space." NLP (when yanked out of the theoretical realm and applied in genuine flirty-type social situations)is fraught with silly assumptions.
F'rinstance, if a girl was flirting with you, and you "intentionally match your conversation partner's state & style of communication," you are essentially emulating heteronormative female flirtation behavior, which might be endearing to a bi-punk-chick, but will almost certainly put off a girl who expects you to flirt in the manner of a straight boy, such as the old-fashioned girls cited in the article above.
(Furthermore, if your Jedi mind trick actually works on the lady, think of the shame when she finds your bookmark on the "how to get laid" chapter of your silly New Age concieve-of-the-human-mind-as-a-hunk-of-programma
If you really need to read about this sort of non-verbal social communication, head straight for _Interaction_Ritual_, by the aforementioned Goffman, for a chaper on (I think) "Embarassment and Social Form."
oh, and BTW: sorry for the anthro jargon. Heteronormative means basically "according to norms for straight people."