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MSN Forces Outlook POP
Phoenix-D writes: "Qwest.net, my Phoenix-area DSL provider and ISP, recently decided to hand over their ISP buisness to MSN. No huge deal, right? Well, check out this blurb: 'Due to the Microsoft anti-spam initiative, customers are restricted to use their mail services. Therefore, POP3 service is only available when using MSN Explorer, Microsoft Outlook, or Microsoft Outlook Express.'" Awesome. Microsoft's Anti-Spam initiative forces POP users to use the primary sender of mail worms.
They could force everyone to use a MAPI client.
How exactly is this enforced? I'm sure there has got to be someway to get around it, if they allow Outlook to use it, then there has to be some way to fool the system into thinking whatever you are using is outlook... isn't there?
---
Programming is like sex... Make one mistake and support it the rest of your life.
Awesome. Microsoft's Anti-Spam initiative forces POP users to use the primary sender of mail worms.
Good... maybe that will force people to apply their damn patches so I quit getting their documents in my mailbox.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
Micro$uck tightens it's grip on faithful customers... I'm not very surprised... :)
I wonder how long until they have their own, seperate internet, just for msn... okay.. I'm just ranting, but really, who is surpised that Microsoft is limiting their customers.
Interesting news though.
http://wsulug.org
How many more would you like?
Liberty.
How is this even possible? POP3 is an open standard, and most every client speaks that protocol. To restrict it to one set of clients seems like a futile measure, as clients will just start coming with options to spoof their client ID, just like Opera and iCab can for http.
1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21 -- Mathematics is the Language of Nature.
it says that you have to use POP3. Why wouldn't that include any client that supports POP3? There is nothing in a POP3 transmission that is hidden. If they were really forcing you to use it (which I highly doubt) then you could trick the server into thinking that you are coming from an Outlook client.
Personally I would complain to your ISP about the lack of service for non-MS clients (if this is truly the case).
This is like Exxon saying if you want to use their gas you have to have an Exxon car. Someone please explain to me again why MS's business practices aren't anti-competitive? I won't even get into how oxymoronic it is to push outlook and hotmail as ways to combat spam, worms, etc..
Is this going to be MS's new way of stopping Linux from gaining ground? Make a DSL/Cable deal with a provider and force subscribers to use your tools which just so happen to be on your platform exclusively.....Anti-trust violations ad infinitum
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
This may be another example of Microsoft trying to use it's monopoly... but why is this in the Your Rights Onlne section?
Who's rights are being infringed here? Either use their software and stop whining or go find a new ISP.
All right, this is gonna sound bad. But let's be real here: you can dump always dump your ISP is you disagree with heinous policies. Yes, I know that in some areas there aren't many providers of decent bandwidth (especially recently with DSL companies going buh-bye left and right), but customers have to stand up for their rights on this sort of thing. Unfortunately, given our recent state of affairs in government, the only *effective* way of doing so is making your dollars do the talking.
Of course, there's always other options too. You could always skip the ISP part and just do your email via web hosting service (no, I'm not self-serving here, it's just true). Especially for folks who run a business, this is a good option.
What other ways are there of combating this kind of B.S.? I suspect the good folks over at Netscape and other net software providers aren't going to be too terribly thrilled with this... do any of these companies have workarounds?
if you can't use any old POP3 compliant client to connect. therefore, sue them for breach of contract for failing to provide the POP3 service they promised to.
Microsoft's Anti-Spam initiative forces POP users to use the primary sender of mail worms.
That's why 1337 scr1p7 k1dd135 everywhere are flocking to Microsoft!
From the article :
:)
Currently, the plan is to transition those customers who:
Have Qwest.net Internet Access using an analog dial-up line, Qwest DSL 256, Qwest DSL Select, or Qwest DSL Deluxe connection and,
Use the Windows operating system.
MAC Customers: MSN is working on a MAC solution for your Internet access needs. Until that time, there will not be any changes to your Qwest.net Internet Access service.
No mention of Linux, but I'd assume they'll treat non-Windows the same (until they have a Mac-only fix, of course).
Hmmm - taking a second look at the capitalization on "MAC", it looks like they don't have a "solution" for anyone using a network card
Last post!
Almost every reference to MS in /. is concerned with the monopolistic practices of the company.
Are any of Microsofts business units NOT involved in these practices? Seriously! MS is a big company, you're always going to be able to pick out stuff like this which is absolutely absurdly monopolistic.
From the faq on MSN-QWEST (the most hillarious thing i have ever read):
"Q: Why should I transition my service to MSN®?
A: There are many reasons why you should transition your service:
With more than 230 million visitors per month, MSN is available in 33 markets and in 17 languages.
(Source: Jupiter MediaMetrixTM Digital Media Report, April 01 for US, UK, France, Germany, Canada, Australia, Japan, Spain, Brazil, Italy, Switzerland. Data are an aggregation of above listed countries.)
When you upgrade your service, special promotions are available to you.
Quality, reliability and speed.
Technical support, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, at no charge!
Continue to enjoy POP3 e-mail service, with an option to switch to the world's largest Web-based e-mail service, MSN Hotmail®, via MSN Internet Explorer and get up to nine e-mail screen names for you and the rest of your family. (Due to the Microsoft anti-spam initiative, customers are restricted to use their mail services. Therefore, POP3 service is only available when using MSN Explorer, Microsoft Outlook, or Microsoft Outlook Express.)
Instant messaging from MSN Messenger Service, the fast growing instant messaging service.
You get more space for your personal Web site from 5 MB to 30 MB.
Easy access to great resources from MSN that help make your life better.
Catch up on the latest news from MSNBC
Listen to your favorite music
Play games
Send instant messages
Create an online photo album for your family
Personalize your home page with weather, sports, news or local events
Shop from the convenience of your home
Invest your money wisely
Search for information
Send online greeting cards
Plan your vacation
Take care of your family's health (This one is amazing)
And, so much more
If the new service uses POP3, how can they stop you from using a POP3-compliant email client? Some kind of MS-specific extensions?
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup." --/usr/games/fortune
Microsoft email spam free? I think not!
I opened a hotmail account last week so I could set up an instant messenger account. I made sure that I had unchecked *all* the advertising, pass on your e-mail, useful partners checkboxes. I have *never* used the account and have *never* published the address yet within 24 hours I had a dozen XXX, $$$ emails in the inbox.
--
Reverse outsourcing: it's the future
Well, it loaded now, but it's slow.
Any way, how can the tell what POP3 you're using? And why would POP3 stop spam? Wouldn't SMTP be where the action is? (I'm assuming that's what they mean). Are they looking at headers (easily emulated by spamware, ineffective) or some other signature? And I don't see how this will stop spam, anything like that is easily emulated. More and more stupidity.
funny munging
I know in the Minneapolis region Qwest sold all their DSL customers to MSN, but gave the people running non-MS operating systems a delay in the switch -- presumably to give them time to switch over to a competitor. Of course, everyone knows that cancelling their Qwest DSL and starting it new at another ISP is fraught with peril.
I can't imagine a better example of anti-competitive practices. MS is going to force people who never selected them as an ISP to use MS software in a manner that does not at all aid "anti-spam initiatives" and, as the post pointed out, will almost certainly make related problems even worse. How on earth does *anything* related to what client is used to access a POP3 server effect spam??? SMTP would at least seem in the ballpark, but POP?
Send them a snail-mail to MSN stating that you are an employee of a firm that makes a commercial e-mail client that competes with Outlook. Ask MSN to provide to you, in writing, a statement about the use of non-Microsoft e-mail clients on MSN. Make sure to suggest that this be handled by their lawyers.
If you want to really get their sphincters to pucker, send a copy to the Justice Department.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but POP is a way to *retrieve* email. How does the client that you're using to *retrieve* your mail matter when it comes to spam? Granted, OE has some mail filters that can be used, but so do other clients (procmail anyone?).
I could see this being legit if, somehow, it prevented the SENDING of spam...but it seems like, if anything, it could only possibly prevent your receiving it...that's like telling someone...well, i don't know what that's like telling someone, because it just seems ridiculous...
Juiced? Or Not?
Don't think so - you've still got the right to vote with your feet and find an ISP that isn't MSN, surely?
This is probably - and I do stress probably - one of those "we only support outlook and outlook express" sort of things. I mean technically AT&T@Home only allows Windows9x and Mac machines to use their network, but that sure hasn't stopped me. This way the tech support people only have to know (or deal with) two fairly similar programs.
At least one hopes thats it.
Ad in classifieds: Pandora's Box (no box) $5
The U.S. Government was absolutely right. It was a bad idea to break M$ into two companies....it should have been broken up into FIVE: Desktop O/S, Server O/S, Portable O/S, Applications, and Services.
We've already seen them use their dominance in almost every one of these sections to force use of another. This is yet another example of using the Services to force use of desktop O/S and applications.
Hey DoJ! Here's a quarter. Go buy a clue!
Xesdeeni
When you sign up for a passport id with a hotmail account they wouldn't sell that address to everyone under the sun.
I signed up for hotmail before MS ever took it over. I never used the email address in any form online, never even had any mail to it. I basically just had it because. After MS took over it litterally filled the account with junk mail.
Find another local ISP (something you should have done in the first place! ;)
If possible, one that isn't owned by Earthlink, AOL or MSN. Maybe there's a small, locally owned provider that would love to provide you with static IP service and lots of other goodies for about the same price.
telnet popserver.msn.com 110
user user
pass password
list
Replace popserver.msn.com with the actual pop3 server. I have no clue what it actually is.
I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
They don't allow third party smtp server either. This has caused us aa bit of a hassle as we have a lot of faculty that want to use our mail server to send mail (with authentication of course) but MSN blocks all connections to a third party smtp server and if you don't use a @msn.com type address as the From it doesn't allow it either.
--"Karma is justice without the satisfaction"
Outlook uses Secure Password Authentication (SPA). Some weird protocol that only microsoft knows. No other programs that I am aware of support it.
as just one more user decides they hate MS more than anything, and begins writing the latest virus to take them out.
so do people hate MS 'cause their assholes, or are they assholes 'cause people hate them?
Switching away from MSN is a real pain though, I experimented with it once when I was young and foolish, but don't remember there being an uninstall once the msn client was on your machine.
meh.
Now is your chance to move to another service. I hope you have another service. But send out a complaint to your local congress person.
good luck finding the right ISP
-onepoint
if you see me, smile and say hello.
Up here in Seattle Quest sold out to Bill and his cronies too. In response I dropped MSN as my provider and went with a local ISP who was very friendly (whos tech support department also has a couple of Linux users I found (after a bear of a time getting the connection set up). Quest still handles the physical connection. Sure I pay $5 more/month for my service but at least I have the peace of mind that I'm not contributing to that cancer in Redmond.
Microsoft obviously is defining security in terms of the availability of non-Microsoft product. The availability of non-Microsoft product is a threat to the security of the Microsoft Market, and must be stopped at all costs.
See how simple things are when you put customers last?
I do not see how any anti-spam technology could be enforced by specifying a Microsoft email Client. I would need a lot more detailed, unbiased technical data before I trust MS on this one.
None of this "simply trsut me" junque.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Why is Microsoft interfering with my right to innovate in the realm of e-mail?
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
I setup outlook express for a friend of mine who uses MSN. It seems microsoft's way of authenticating users is some sort of "secure" authentication. It's a feature called "SPA" or secure password authentication. My guess is that they encrypt the account name and password in a similar way to NT login authentication so the actual name and password never go across the wire.
-ted
Typical over-reaction that gives /. a reputation for being one-eyed. I suggest someone actually clarify the position before we launch into the inevitable MS bashing (as fun as that may be :-)
-----
Miracle cures for snoring don't exist! See www.snoring.com.au
Do you or your partner snore? - Visit www.snoring.com.au
Browsing through my spam filter, I see a lot of message from Hotmail. Microsoft contends, for whatever reason, that spam originates from everyone else. How long until users realizes that the amount of spam INCREASES once they enforce this stupid policy? How long until they realize that Microsoft's software is responsible for worms and this policy actually slows down their connection? This is absolutely rediculous.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
this isn't flamebait, it's informative. you just have to do a little thinking for yourself (i know, it's hard, just try) and realize that this article is letting you know that it's not a good idea to use qwest.
Never happen.
They'd have to use MSN approved bombs, and of course have to be signed up to Passport before even thinking about sending anything over...
So, what do they do for customers who aren't using an OS that Outlook is available for?
Not only are they forcing you to use Outlook, they're forcing you to use Windows. (I believe it's available for Mac too, yeah...).
MadCow.
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
That sentence could be read
"When using Outlook express, Outlook or MSN explorer you will only be able to use pop3"
I think they need to clarify that (and I have a feeling they will if I know slashdotians).
--"Karma is justice without the satisfaction"
fkn microsoft
this news just makes me hate microsoft even more. (very hard, because my respect for them is already at negative infinity).
Why cant micro$oft do what USERS want, not what the almighty dollar (or maybe bill) wants?
I believe they are talking about accessing your HOTMAIL mail account via POP3. As far as I know, as long as this service has been available, you have had to use a MS mail client, as they actually send you ads in a pane at the bottom of Outlook/OE.
I believe there is also a workaround to block the ads, but I can't remember where I saw it.
Yes-- a previous thread mentioned that Secure Password Authentication is a Microsoft-specific POP3 extension.
Please mod this down due to the fact that it's a goat sex link. Damn trolls.
Keep Austin Weird!
I've been doing it for years, to have an independant und uninterrupted news and email service when I switch ISP.
It is hard to find a good ISP that offers a decent newsfeed these days, and email service in general is also deteriorating. IMO it is better to subscribe to mail and news at a specialized provider, and use the ISP only for access.
Reading stories like this makes me happy to have good DSL service here in Portland, Oregon: Qwest wiring and Hevanet.com as ISP. Hevanet also has excellent tech support.
(Contact me for help programming your Cisco 675.)
Bush's education improvements were
How is this "leveraging their monopoly power" exactly?
How is this different than say, if Qwest had turned over their ISP business to AOL and AOL required using the AOL client?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
There's gold in them thar bugs...and somebody's gotta stomp 'em...
I want to be alone with the sandwich
The US courts have agreed that they ARE behaving in an anti-competitive manner. They just disagreed that breaking up the company was an appropriate remedy.
The more star systems will slip through your fingers...
- some girl with sticky buns on the sides of her head, Star Wars
This has been rumored for some time. One can escape assimilation by paying an extra $10/month and going to OfficeWorks, although rumor ALSO has it that even OfficeWorks won't be safe from the Evil Empire.
Someone mentioned getting around this. The problem is the DMCA. As I understand it, it's now illegal to do that kind of reverse engineering, i.e. the type that allowed *nix users to connect to SMB via Samba. So basically, through emrbrace and extend, MS can technically and legally exclude non-conformists.
To switch ISPs requires a 3-week downtime. This is done to eliminate the "slamming" phenonemon that plagued Long Distace carriers. I being one of the "renegades" running an alternative OS, have been looking into alternatives.
The problem is that I work from home (so I have between 3-5 machines networked into a DSL line) and it would create no small problem if I were to have to connect via modem for 3 weeks. Although given the alternative, I may be purchasing a modem...
Computer Science is Applied Philosophy
"The best laid plans of mice and men gang oft agley..." - ROBERT BURNS
I really am speechless. My only thoughts are: How can MS continue to have policies like this and not be sued into bankrupcy?
... oh yeah, they already tried that, it's amazing the lawyers you can get when you're the richest company out there...
~ now you know
You can choose any ISP that has DSL services even though the DSL line is through Qwest. While I was waiting for the service to start I believe I saw the announcement about MSN and Qwest on slashdot. So, not wanting anything to do with MSN, I quickly found a local provider for the ISP part of DSL. No problems so far. And they officially support Linux, unlike Qwest.
In theory any e-mail client that supports SPA could be used. Right now that would be MSN Explorer, Outlook Express, and Outlook.
-- Argel
*giggle*
Just felt compelled to point out web-based email also. ISP givin' you a hard time? Screw 'em as follows, and make sure to send an email to their PR department letting them know what you think of their support of this sort of idiotic policy.
SquirrelMail.
There it be. Have fun!
This is clearly NOT a violations of anybodys rights.. This ISP is private business, and they are out-sourcing thier email hosting to another private business. And THEY have the right to impose ANY DAMN RULES THEY WANT!!.
Just is just as much of a rights violation as:
- Not allowing broadband users to host home servers
- Not imposing limits on the amount of bandwidth you can use
- Not supporting all OS's
- Blocking ports
It's a private business, and it's thier damn business how you use THIER network, THEIR servers, and THEIR routers.
And, it's YOUR damn right to go elsewhere.
Now excuse me. I have to go sue McDonalds becuase they insist on serving me Coke, and it's my right to want and get Pepsi.
--knick
Further down this post I explained that. I think SPA uses an authentication mechanism similar to NT authentication. Basically it's a token exchange process to encrypt the name and password so the plain text name and password never go across the wire.
-ted
From the website:
Q: What does the MSN® and Qwest® alliance mean to me?
A: Under the agreement, MSN will become the preferred Internet Service Provider (ISP) for some Qwest.net Consumer Internet Access customers. Qwest and Microsoft® are working together to provide consumers with best-of-breed MSN content and services via Qwest's Internet infrastructure. Customers will benefit from this joint offering in many ways including... (emphasis added)
Ummm...according to the Consumer Reports Sept. 2001 issue, MSN was rated as the worst Internet provider.
Nice to see that Microsoft not only squeezes the consumer, limits choice, but also engages in bald-faced lying!!
Qwest has a stranglehold on DSL in their areas - you have
to give them at least 50% of the DSL charges, even if you
use another ISP. It is similar to per-processor charges that
Microsoft used to use.
Qwest even goes so low as to "slam" customers away from
other ISP's. It happened to me several times during the
summer. I'm not sure if they targeted me due to Linux or
what.
Is anyone out there actually using this service and can they tell how the network is attempting to enforce this? Are they simply saying if you want them to provide you with an email service you must use one of their clients for the account? Or are they saying if you want to use email you must use one of their accounts (i.e. you can't use any other pop/smtp/imap email provider to collect or receive mail). Are they blocking ports? Finally if this is an anti-spam measure, why are they talking about POP? POP is for collecting mail not sending it! If they were talking about SMTP then it would make sense. Are they simply looking for a way to ensure they are filtering all email?
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The solution is simple enough, get another ISP. I don't even use the POP3 mail accounts my ISP provides. I use netscape webmail, and can check my e-mail everywhere. I used to use hotmail, until MSFT bought it, but I am sure I am one of the millions of people microsoft says are potential Passport members...... (Yeah Right!)
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
But only until I can afford a cisco 675 and get the free time to deal with the problem. I noticed when I first got DSL that SMTP is blocked...not from running a server but outgoing! I asked their internet based tech support and they where MORONS!
:P
"Are you using MSN Messenger, Outlook, or Outlook Express?"
"No, I use Netscape"
"Yes, but I need to know what you use to get your email. Are you using MSN Messenger, Outlook, or Outlook Express?"
After an hour of repetedly asking if I was using Messenger, Outlook, or Outlook Express, he blamed it on Netscape and told me to call tech support...he also said they are NOT blocking 25. So I called and yes they are, but he had no idea why. At one point he sent me a text file that had directions for setting up Outlook Express with hotmail (MSN only has hotmail, they don't have a real mailbox.) I just said "You just can't immagine that I would not want to use Outlook can you?"
I am pretty dissapointed in Quest for setting me up with these assholes. I specificaly asked if MSN was a *real* ISP with all the *standard* features and that I did NOT want some AOL wannabe bullshit. I was assured that it was just like any other ISP with all the standard features and protocols. I think part of the problem is that these people have no idea what a real ISP is anymore...it has become a thing of the past with these "Access providers" like AOL and MSN taking over.
The fact that they don't provide standard services would be ok if they where not blocking my access to getting those services elsewhere. The modem you get is also all fucked up - you have to have windows to talk to it because they modified it to only talk to their setup application. After setting that up in windows I can leave it and run my linux masq fw just fine though....the only problem is port 25 and it makes them utterly useless. What is really funny is that your allowed to keep the modem after leaving, I asked where I send it back to and they don't want it....but then I don't want it either
jik-
such as chap, kerberos etc.. Anyone notice a trend?
Maybe I don't understand how spam and POP3 client works, but how can Outlook protect more against spam then, let say, Eudora, or any other POP3 client that have a filter option in it?
I mean, I know only two way that someone can stop having spam... you don't put your e-mail at everyplace that they ask for your e-mail and you install some basic filter rules. I don't see anything specific at Outlook in this...
But maybe someone can show me the light, an explain me why Outlook is so much better (hope you see the irony here) than any other POP3 client at preventing from spam?
You could also use SMTP over SSL, which uses a different port. Most ISPs that filter SMTP don't block the secure SMTP port.
...I take it to a place that takes American Express. When I find myself somewhere that takes Mastercard but not American Express, I shrug my shoulders and yank out my Mastercard instead.
I guess I could scream bloody murder about how it's anticompetitive of the store to not take my card and how everything should interoperate perfectly, but that's life I suppose.
I have dsl in Minneapolis, MN. I wanted a static IP and Qwest MSN does not offer that, so I just looked for a third party ISP. I pay for the dsl line(31.95 or something) and a measly $19.95 for my third party ISP. I get a static IP, I can use Linux or whatever OS I want, and I can use any email program I want.
Yeah its 20 bucks more, but you if want quality you pay for it.
He can't put a new email client to the market, if the leading ISP's doesn't allow their users to use new clients. If he can't market it, he will not be able to fund the development. If he can't fund the development, inovation will die.
If you run the mail server (POP, SMTP or IMAP, etc), or you know the person who does run the mail server. Tell them to put the services on an additional port that MSN won't be blocking.
If your using an ISP for your mail services. Ask them to put the mail server on an additional port. www.mailbank.com does this.
If MSN is blocking low number ports, use high numbered ports.
Slow down cowboy....
That the message you now get when trying to reply to posts on slashdot. Apperently you have to wait 2 minutes between posts, in a bulletin board message system that is just idiotic!
Slashdot gets worse by the day it seems, pretty soon I will simply stop trying to work around it.
jik-
Now, if this weren't Microsoft, who brought us everything that is good, I'd say the whole thing is just an outright lie.
My PDX dsl choice is Easystreet.
Excellent support, and they're server-friendly.
Their policies are friendly to the local wireless group.
IIS won't even talk to clients that are not IE.
The solution is very very simple. When you sign up for QWest DSL, tell 'em you want to use a different ISP. You don't *have* to use MSN. Already have MSN? Call QWest and ask 'em to change your ISP. It's just that simple. All QWest provides is a high speed route to the ISP of your choice.
*Condense fact from the vapor of nuance*
Call 1-800-244-1111
I called, and the rep told me you have to be using Microsoft's OS if you want to subscribe to their new MSN service. You can still have a regular Qwest account.
So what's all the hooplah about?
MSN's anti-spam filters force you to use their SMTP servers and blocks any outbound port 25 traffic. This does not 'stop spam' but it forces spammers to use MSN's mail servers and not the anonymous open relays that they prefer. Since spammers need to be as anonymous as possible, they have (for the most part) left MSN's dial-ups.
No replies made to AC posts. Please log in.
I suspect that Microsoft is blocking port 25/tcp access from inside their network to outside internet hosts. This would effectively block SPAM and restrict users to Microsoft's mail servers.
It sounds to me that MS is trying to protect the internet from their users - rather than protect their users from the internet. I say we should give MS a wide round of applause!
http://www.ridiculopathy.com/news_detail.php?disp
MS wants access to all of the email that you receive, so that it can read... er, filter out all of the anti-MS propog... er, spam before you even get to... er, have to look at it.
This is disturbing -
"Continue to enjoy POP3 e-mail service, with an option to switch to the world's largest Web-based e-mail service, MSN Hotmail®, via MSN Internet Explorer and get up to nine e-mail screen names for you and the rest of your family. (Due to the Microsoft anti-spam initiative, customers are restricted to use their mail services. Therefore, POP3 service is only available when using MSN Explorer, Microsoft Outlook, or Microsoft Outlook Express.)"
You do know that Micro$oft products are the main cause of the many worms and viruses that plague the Internet. I absolutely REFUSE to use Micro$oft products to retrieve or send mail. This applies to everybody in my organization. Outlook is BANNED.
Please tell me how POP3 service, which is a standard that is not controlled by Micro$oft, can be controlled by Micro$oft? Are you saying that my Unix box cannot speak POP3 to your servers? My Unix box knows how to speak POP3!
Another thing...My company is not going to spend any time or money installing Outlook or any other Micro$oft product to use your service. If that is required, we will need to be released from our contract with no penalties.
Thanks in advance for your timely response.
P.S. Anti-spam? Micro$oft, Hotmail, MSN, etc, are the largest distributors of SPAM on the Net! Talk about an oxymoron!
Seems like having an SSH tunnel to your favorite mail server would be ideal. At least my main mail server I can SSH to, and others I could forward there.
And of course if you are tunneling to your mail server directly, pop3 being in plaintext isn't such a problem. If it'd work with other authentication means, I don't know. However, it seems to me like a good alternative.
Qwess an' Microsof'® is wawkin' togither t'provide cornsoomrs wif best-of-breed MSN corntent an' services via Qwest's Internet infrastruckure. Cestomers will benefit fum this hyar joint offerin' in menny ways includin':
Now isn't that much better than reading the plain old vanilla statements! ;) I mean, Microsoft is wawkin' t'provide cornsoomers sums up what kind of service I would expect from them!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Oh bother.
For the time being, I have an MSN account (provided free with my Dell computer). Anyway, two days ago I checked my e-mail to find 34 messages. Only four of these were *NOT* spam. I have repeatedly complained to MSN and have even send detailed header information. The consistent reply I get is that "it's not our problem".
Perhaps Microsoft is getting serious about spam. It's too late for me though as I'm switching to Earthlink.
A goal is a dream with a deadline
As both someone who's worked at an ISP, and who has worked at a University, what they're doing by disallowing outbound port 25 connections is a GOOD thing, as it keeps spammers from using a throwaway account to originate and inject to open relays.
Odds are, it's not based on the from address, but based on the originating IP address. [as to just allow 'from: *@msn.com' is setting themselves up as a third party relay for messages with forged headers.] It may also not be MSN, but it may be UUNet, who I believe MSN rents POPs from.
Now, for the solution -- tell the faculty to follow the instructions from their ISP for their home machines, not the instructions from the university, which is for local machines. If they have to have a from address with MSN in it to use the SMTP servers, just tag on a reply-to address.
The only whining that might take a little bit of a work arround is for those folks who use a laptop from both home and from work. You need to use an ISP that can push DNS server information to you in the PPP negotiation, or a broadband connection with DNS defined by the DHCP server, so that they're getting dynamic DNS at home, and using DHCP sending DNS at work, so they have dynamic DNS there. Then, they need to put in a non-FQDN for the SMTP server.
For example, you have someone at isp.net, and work for lame.edu. The isp has a host named smtp.isp.net which they can deliver their mail to, and you have a machine named smtp.lame.edu which the faculty [why do the faculty always complain the most?] can use when they're on campus.
When off campus, they're using the dns servers at isp.net, and so, when sending to 'smtp', it looks up 'smtp.isp.net'. When on campus, they're using the dns servers at lame.edu, and so, 'smtp' would be 'smtp.lame.edu'.
If you have enough users on their system, you can normally get issues pushed through to someone more signficant at the ISP, so that you can find some working solution before having the users try it. [Our university's been in talks with AOL for a week or two, as it seems that when we set up a Trend virus firewall, we opened ourselves up for third party relaying, and AOL started sporaticly dropping our e-mail when their spam traps were triggered]
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
Simple Solution:
For the SMTP server, use:
"macsmtp.email.msn.com"
and your normal user/pass .
They don't have it working right for Mac clients; tada.
I've been using this for about 2 months now on my Windows and Linux machines and it works great.
Personally, I am more concerned with why I can't send mail to anyone using AOL/Walmarts ISP: wmconnect.com .
I have used OL Express to retrieve my MSN email. Yes, with the POP specific clients, "Use Secure Password Authentication" must be check or receive 0X800CCCOD error.
A solution to this, with no need to use the Outlook family o' mail clients is to use the Hotmail pop checking feature located under the options tab of Hotmail. I am unaware logistically how the SPA is circumvented, but using it is not a selectable option. Hotmail will check MSN POP mail, with no type of error.
Additionally the server names are:
pop3.email.msn.com & smtp.email.msn.com
I am me...I think
"Microsoft's Anti-Spam initiative forces POP users to use the primary sender of mail worms."
Uh, no. Consider the phrase "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". Got that? Now, repeat after me: "Microsoft doesn't propogate email worms, shitty system admins propogate email worms".
No matter what client you use, with good aministration email worms will not spread. Email scripting can be turned off in Outlook, and if you're in a position to bash MS for their evil spreading of worms, surely you have the intellegence to turn scripting off.
--jon
Cleanstick.org: Dumb weblog about nothing
"Awesome. Microsoft's Anti-Spam initiative forces
POP users to use the primary sender of mail worms."
I know, it's hard, just try to see it with a hint of objectivity, but statements like that are flamebait.
Eligible Customers:
Currently, the plan is to transition those customers who:
and,
So, tell 'em you use Linux. Problem solved.
The irony is delicious and obvious. It would be just as appropriate for them to ban Microsoft mail products as part of a security initative.
It means that you will only be able to retrieve HOTMAIL email with POP3 if you use MSN Explorer. Outlook, or Outlook Express. This is because those are the only clients that support it right now.
Cute acronym
(Or should that be: Oxymoron)
-Eldurbarn
Even more top-posted, non-snipped, HTML email!
Come on folks. We are all pretty smart. In the eyes of Joe-average-computer-user, POP email is both ways. For those of us that know, POP is incoming, and SMTP is outgoing. It's much easier, and less confusing, to just say that "POP access is limited to MSN Explorer, Outlook, and Outlook Express". In essence, more people can identify POP than SMTP. Let's try debating the actual issue. Arguing semantics is just silly.
For my $.02, I think this is just another shot at people who want to use something Different. Once we figure out what MSN is looking for, it's easy enough to change our email clients to emulate the MS tools. This is not a widespread problem (yet), so to those who are affected - break out a sniffer, do some manual SMTP, play with it. Then, find a workaround. I know that if I was in this situation, I would do the same.
Hi-Technical Excellent Taste and Flavor!
I'd personally recommend Speakeasy.net. They seem to be much more flexible than most. I've been 95% pleased with the service, and that's more than I can say for any of the previous ISPs I've been with.
I'm not.
They do mention Mac's in the FAQ, but no other OS's (there are other OS's?). What choices are provided in the form? Could you prevent the change from occuring if you choose something like Linux?
Look at the bottom, i can't believe it:
MSN Broadband Internet Access is available only to users of the Windows® 98 or later operating systems.
No joke.
I couldn't imagine it would happen someday...
This doesn't makes sense from Qwest's biz perspective.
They're probably being paid an ungodly amount of money by MS to push this policy. However, they won't end up saving on bandwidth in this, especially if customers switch to MSN web-based mail (pulling down bloated HTML pages instead of just text messages).
Plus, here's another way of looking at it: Does Qwest stand any risk of getting burned by folks choosing MSN for an ISP over their service? Yes, there are differences in speed involved, but this initiative does stand to give MSN a LOT of extra market exposure. Qwest may want to consider whether they're taking aim squarely at their left foot in this regard.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this anticompetitive? Compared to a lot of the other stuff that's been flinging through the courts, I believe this takes the cake.
This would be like saying to all Saturn car owners that even though you used to be able to use Shell, Exxon, Mobil and other gasolines, now you can only use Saturn brand gasoline, and explaining that the reason is to prevent pollution.
I do agree with the point that they are the biggest spam and virus generators on the planet.
The Dopester
"Yes, I'm a Karma Whore, but I'm doing it to pay my way through school."
Its really difficult to spam when you must be logging onto their (MS's) server and provide user authentication to get at the POP3 mailboxes.
Huh?!?!?! Can you attempt to explain to me how collecting your email has anything to do with sending email
IIRC, spammers like to get on POP3 servers
You don't RC.
Spam has NOTHING to do with the POP3 protocol. You can't get a list of "valid mailboxes" by using POP3 - unless the server is broken and sends a different error for "user unknown" instead of "bad password" (for security reasons, both errors should return the same message.) - but why you think a spammer would use such a method (which is technically "cracking", and could land them BIG-TIME in trouble with the FBI) instead of using an SMTP Rumplestiltskin attack is beyond me...
In short, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about, and should shut the hell up.
I reported this back in June.
--
Mod up a post Rob doesn't like and you'll never mod again
It's a little slow, but it works like a charm. Who gives a damn about pop3?
The middle mind speaks!
Ok as I read the posts further down this article I see lots of people reasoning that the idea here is that when using Outlook Express and SAP you can control spam.
Personally I use POP/Authenticated SMTP over SSL. All of these are standards driven technologies and furthermore all are supported by MS Outlook. Why would the bother with SAP? Aside from deliberately excluding non MS mail clients?
I don't think Microsoft is selling the address... I think that there are spammers out there with software to randomly scan which address are there. If you ever look at the header, many times the message was sent to all and any addresses that are similiar to your own account.
Since hotmail has so many users, it is an easy target for this scanning activity.
You're Just Jealous Because The Voices Are Talking To Me.
My interpretation of the meanin of the term
S.P.A.M.
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
I have seen recent reports that MSN is using Brightmail's anti-spam service. I work at earthlink, where we use it too. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in Brightmail which would create any sort of limitation on the client side. Brightmail operates entirely inside the MTA, before mail is dropped into inboxes.
If your a Mac user, you must be really screwed.
The only program on that list available to Mac users is MSOutlook which retails at over $100.
How nice!! I gues I won't be able to get email with a Linux box either...
But all in all I'm happy, now I don't have to spend 2 seconds aday deleting anyone elses SPAM other than Microsoft (or x10).
My MSN account (yeah I just got it to use there SMTP for a day, I keep it as a joke) Gets more SPAM than my other 15 combined!!!(I use filters) And most of it's from MS!!
I would rather be ashes than dust!
An oxymoron is a two word contradiction, like Microsoft Security.
I think what Qwest is trying to say is this:
MSN is taking over.
MSN uses Hotmail for email.
Qwest's email is going away.
You used POP3 to get email from Qwest.
Hotmail is a web-based email system.
You use a web browser to access Hotmail.
You can access Hotmail without a web browser, but not with POP3.
You can only use Outlook Express or MSN Explorer to play with your Hotmail without actually being online. This is because Hotmail doesn't actually support POP3, but a proprietary transport. This proprietary transport is only implemented in Microsoft products (surprised?)
Booo Microsoft!
Hrmm, totally different experience here in Seattle. I was one of the very first to get Qwest DSL installed (it was still USWest then, August of 1998). I've been using a local ISP the whole time, I have a static IP and my own domain with my own email/ftp/web server. My circuit has gone down maybe 2 or 3 times and never for more than an hour or so. (that doesn't count the half dozen times my ISP has been smurfed :)
While US/Q/west has never made it easy to use another ISP, it's always been possible. I've never had them try to 'slam' me away from my ISP. Oh, yeah, my aunt has the same ISP as me, she's had DSL for about a year and a half, same story, no troubles.
What with constantly changing ISPs and being with ISPs with crap email services, I long ago started using a solution that is independent of them (Yahoo, and later, my own domain and server). If you don't want to use MSN, don't! It's not like QWest is filtering POP3 connections and only allowing them to MSN. Yes, I know, it sucks paying for a service that you don't use. But, MSFT have the right to do what they like with Hotmail - that's business for you. It's your fault for using a MSFT mail solution in the first place. This whole article is just flamebait... who cares what MSN or QWest do with email - take your business elsewhere. You can still use email with QWest without using MSN!
POP3 is for READING email -- not sending it! How can forcing M$ POP3 clients stop SPAM?!
For remote mail POP is stuffed IMAP is a little better but still I think there could be something even better IMAPvx ?
Many times I have received mail at work with big attachments and then have got home to read another mail that would like me to forward that mail
I use IMAP but if I forward that mail it is sucked down my slow link and then resent down my slow link
I think that we need protocol that can send mail from the server IMAPvx
Lotus notes and express can do this but it would be much better to have an open standard to do it
and Microsoft Works
I can't believe Microsooft even has an anti-spam initiative! Here's a test, go signup for a hotmail account and create a login that is so insane no one would ever guess it, make sure you go through the signup carefully so your not signing up for any other junk they offer, then don't tell anyone about the account. Wait about 4 hours and go check your email. If I were a beting man, I'd say there will be at least 3 spam messages waiting for you.
--Here's one guy regretting ever getting a hotmail account...too bad it's such a pain to change email addresses.
MSN is already breaking things by insisting on a @msn.com From line. Everyone else is just trying to work around it.
h .t xt
Yes, you should always just use your "local" SMTP gateway, but when the people running it are being draconian morons, you don't have many choices... and no, having official correspondence go out under @msn.com isn't an option.
If MSN was serious about this, they'd just use several of the possible authentication methods that exist for SMTP service (IP range, SMTP-after-POP, SASL, ). It sounds like they've picked one, and only one, instead of implementing several and allowing mail to go if any of the above are met.
Some SMTP auth links:
http://www.thecabal.org/~devin/postfix/smtp-aut
http://www.qmail.org/top.html (look for "authenticate")
http://www.sendmail.org/~ca/email/auth.html
What we need is an electronic version of the Amnesty International letter writing tables. People could log in, get presented with a list of the most eggregious offenses against free and open software, and have the links to send polite emails to those companies asking them to change their practices. Maybe this type of approach would have kept Congress from passing DMCA...
More and more providers seem to like being a nanny. Port blockades, proxies, on-server mailviruscheckers, etc. wouldn't be so annoying if providers offered an easy and reliable way to turn these features off. There is a chance to circumvent the restrictions though: Make your traffic opaque, encrypt it with IPSec. After that, all that is left of your connections are target IP addresses and seemingly random data. No more ports and no more chances to interfere with your data through proxies. The provider can only allow all your connections or none.
And there aren't even that many dial up providers anymore.
You can pick whatever provider you want in phoenix, just call qwest and tell them to switch your ISP to inficad. Its cheaper, lots of webspace and shit, reverse DNS, static ips, hell they even have a shell box.
Does Outlook run under Wine? Taking a look at the Wine site, it seems the best I can find is a maybe. This crap should spur work on Outlook under Wine.
VMware should run it, anyway.
Cpt_Kirks
I could've chosen Qwest for my DSL, but I went with Speakeasy (and Covad), which is a Linux-friendly company. Of course, in six months I'll be the goat when Covad goes belly-up, but hey....
The local internet provider is actually running an ad in the paper stating that "Qwest customers are about to be assimilated by Microsoft... join is!" Kind of funny.
There is no need to create a new propietary protocol . There is a standard way to validate a user using POP3 whitout sending the password in clear text. See RFC 1939 - APOP command
MOD THE CHILD UP!
1. Get yourself a for-pay separate email account (I use runbox for my primary account and it's well worth the $ - @home's mail servers go down more than a well-known Presidential Intern).
2. Complain that their new rule is keeping you from using a service for which you are paying.
3. When they say "too bad", Call a lawyer.
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." Col. Jeff Cooper
If MSN gets away with this, we can see it used as
a legal precedent in interesting ways.
For example, you know those highway signs saying
that X miles are supported by company Y? We'll
soon find that, say, General Motors has purchased
the support rights for all the major highways in
the metro area, and all non-GM cars will be stopped
and not allowed on the road.
You'd think that the anti-trust laws would prevent
this sort of vertical-market monopoly. But that's
not likely with the current gang in power.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
I've been a Qwest.net user for a long time. I'm finally moving my accounts elsewhere because I refuse to use MSN.
This requirement is probably derived from the fact that the Qwest.net infrastructure is POP3 only. Thus, since you're going to be using MSN via the Qwest.net infrastructure, you're stuck with POP3 until Qwest upgrades.
But if we're talking just DSL, you have a line provider and an ISP. If your line provider (telco) can drop a line in there for you, you have your choice of ISP for IP transit. You can choose to tell your ISP to blow it out thier ass and pick an ISP that doesn't pull stupid software tricks.
I was thinking satellite was out of the picture because it's just like having DSL's crappy low bandwidth and noise problems, but the added bonus of having at least 1500ms pings!
Help us build a better map!
http://www.forteinc.com/agent/index.htm
I couldn't find it on their site but when you download the PDF manual, it will say the 32bit client supports it.
Gee,
/.ers pick the needles out of haystacks...
what would I rather have?
A hundred emails a day from l33t porno spammers, or an occasional email worm, which isn't an issue because I don't open unknown attachments regardles...
hmmm... sometimes you
MSN has no clue if you're sending spam through a third party relay, or if you're connecting to a legitimate authenticating mail relay, or if you're handing your own SMTP, and connecting to the proper MX.
MSN allowing outbound port 25 connections from a dialup customer is a step backwards for spam prevention. As someone who's being affected en mass by their changing policies, your university should contact them, and inform them that they either need to make provisions for your case, or that your group will have to make sure that your users take their business elsewhere, and find an ISP that you can work with.
If the faculty members were using their university e-mail addresses, and not their MSN one, they will have no issue in moving to a new ISP, save for the initial time in re-configuration. If they were using their local MSN e-mail address, and they're not willing to give it up, then they have to weigh the costs & benefits in switching. The only ones who are really screwed in this situation are not those that are concerned with third party relay, but wished to use some other non-MS client to read their mail from.
Realisticly, you should be using authenticated SMTP to see if there's some prick in the dorms starting up his own little spamming business. You should not expect outside ISPs however, to allow your users to connect to the server from a dialup connection. [Hell, we don't even allow allow relaying for connections from off-campus, although, that was a recent change [this morning] due to the lack of being able to authenticate with the trend micro virus scanner in front of the SIMS mail cloud, and we're just waiting to see how many users start complaining as they didn't get the messages regarding the policy changes]
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
If you have to use MSN as an ISP, use something else as your mail server.
If you must have a hotmail account (for access to IM or whatever), just put in two filters: (1) If subject contains Free Pizza, send to Trash, and (2)If subject does not contain Free Pizza, send to Trash. This will keep those annoying mail notifications from popping up on your IM.
While I agree that this isn't exactly a rights issue, I complete disagree that MSN or MS can do whatever they want. The FOF has survived appeal and it is now a brave new world for MS. Every move they make is fair game for legal scurtiny. You can cry about the supposed free market all you want but that ain't the real world and in this case I'd rather nip this in the bud before MSN gets a stranglehold share in the marketplace.
I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie
I was wondering when the trolls were going to work around the slashcode. Good job fellas!
... and when is Mr. Ashcroft going to initiate an investigation on this?
Fuck Ajit Pai
Secure Password Authentication (Microsoft)
;)
you must write
SPAM'icrosoft
They don't want competition..pure and simple. Nothing new there. Whether it be in spamming or client software.
Due to the Microsoft anti-spam initiative, customers are restricted to use their mail services. Therefore, POP3 service is only available when using MSN Explorer, Microsoft Outlook, or Microsoft Outlook Express.
in other words... "ONLY WE CAN DO THE SPAMMING AROUND HERE! and.... (in an almost inaudible voice) youmustuseoursoftware.
As in, "We're going to continue to allow you to use the POP3 services already available through quest. If you'd like to switch to MSN, you need to use one of the Microsoft clients.
I don't see this as a negative at all. (And besides, aren't most Slashdotters running their own Sendmail facilities on their boxen at this point anyway?)
Maybe they will start an investigation into Quest.net?
This sounds like Henry Ford's famous quote: You can have any color you want, as long as it is black.
Bill Gates: "You can have any e-mail client as long as it is Microsoft."
So climate's changing. So what? It has always changed. The big news would be if it wasn't changing. - Dr. Philip Stone
Damn, that's original.
No, this policy is part of the Microsoft anti-competition initiative.
The anti-spam initiative is responsible for the frequent Outlook crashes, so no one can send mass email.
------DO NOT WRITE BELOW THIS LINE------
ONLY MSN blocks it.
Just as likely, wmconnect.com refuses incoming mail from any server that identifies itself as msn.com or hotmail.com (or at least without a valid reverse lookup) as an 'anti-spam' measure. And for certain, AOL is not going to cooperate with MSN to make sure that they are using an inter-operable standard.
Liquor
Sanity is a highly overrated commodity.
Do you expect them to say? that they are the worst? Hmmm Good business thinking.
now we can justify blocking ALL mail from msn.com
"If you love someone, set them free. If they come home, set them on fire." - George Carlin
I was being facetious, but really for expunging a a single message (under my keybindings) that would be: d M M M N # # #
that is: delete, mark message, next command uses marks, expunge. VM rocks.
This looks like an opportunity for local ISPs to increase there business.
Because we're forcing you to!
from the faq:
Note: After the transition period, eligible Qwest.net Internet Access Customers who have not transitioned their account will automatically be transitioned to MSN Internet Access.
I usually don't have too much problem with most of what Microsoft does, but this is going too far...if I remember correctly, Qwest.net requires a contract, and it looks like customers will be forced to incur the extra expense (hidden charges?) of buying Microsoft software to get use out of their contract.
Denver Isuzu Suzuki
So is your reply...
POP3is a lovely protocol but it has one terrible disadvantage: It's a download only process. Oh sure email can be left on the server but there's no flagging, folders, etc. possible.
Sure it's possible, it's just not done on the server. Those features can be mimicked with Rules (or Actions or whatever they're called on a particular client).
The only difficult part is that the client has to be configured on each machine with the same (or similar) folders and Rules.
How do I know it works? I've been doing it for over five years with my POP client, Claris Emailer.
"Where's my other sock?" - A. Einstein
The only difference being that you have the good sense to use Mastercard.
The average computer user is, let's face it, either lazy, stupid or both. They'll use the most convenient option available, and right now that means MS's anticompetitive "software".
Am I the only one who heard Roxette to sing "I'm gonna get blitzed for some sex"?
Why the HELL would you want to run Outlook on Linux??
Go find some moderators to share that crack of yours' with.
So, by definition, they are commiting potential anti-trust violations by requiring Microsoft only applications to allow people to get their e-mail.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Email clients don't send spam...people send spam.
Change your ISP.
How many people out there are REALLY using Linux & Qwest? :)
Is this such a big deal, as most people are probably using Windows anywase (and using Qwest)? Or am I out of the loop?
I have no signature
That's definitely bogus. Even if they own the DSL lines, they're obligated to provide any ISP access to the DSL drop at your house. ILEC or CLEC, it doesn't matter. All that MS can do is reconnect you or be prepared to be told that they can't do business in your state.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
As part of our ongoing effort to reduce junk emails to our loyal customers, the Microsoft abuse management team has created a new "real-time black hole" domain block list. This list is used to check all mail routed through our servers (increased in volume thanks to our new deal with Qwest) for known spammer domain names.
You may be interested to note that leading this list are the following notorious domains. These sites should be avoided for the protection of our revenue stream... errr... customers:
Additionally, our upcoming Microsoft World Browser will include protection against websites hosted at these domains. Thank you for your cooperation as we work to improve your user experience on the web.
Sincerely,
Microsoft Support
More than enough said...
Neither one really requires technical knowledge to use, both are cheap (avoid the free mail forwarding services - if they're not making money, they're not going to be "permanent"), and they're generally simple to set up particularly if all you need is to have mail forwarded to your current ISP. ISP gets bought out? New terms are something you don't like? Switch ISPs. Once you're set up with your own address, the ISP just becomes a bandwidth provider.
fencepost
just a little off
...i find a new isp.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
As both someone who's worked at an ISP, and who has worked at a University, what they're doing by disallowing outbound port 25 connections is a GOOD thing, as it keeps spammers from using a throwaway account to originate and inject to open relays.
It also keeps customers from using an outside email service, and anti-spam reasoning can be used to justify anti-competitive practices, exactly as has been done in this case. I think this is cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Stopping spam does not have to take priority over every other consideration. Shuting down all email servers would stop the spam problem, but it would make email quite a bit less useful (sarcasm). The same thing goes for blocking port egress to port 25. Exercising prior restraint by blocking traffic like this is going to far. Controlling spam is not so important that the ability to choose your email provider should be sacrificed to the cause.
Edith Keeler Must Die
Now what does this have to do with blocking non-MS POP3? I thought we just solved the spam problem.
funny munging
...they actually made Verizon's e-mail service look good.
today is spelling optional day.
outlook.microsoft.com was an open SMTP server!!
I used it when I was out of town because our university doesn't allow SMTP outside of their own IP addresses.
These are the guys that are going to give you the best service? Come on...
As usual, it's all about money..
"Yes.. no matter what the culture, folk dancing is stupid." -MST3K
Comment removed based on user account deletion
At first when I read the article title, I thought it said, "MSN Forces Outlook POOP." Hmm...
You hit the nail on the head, with they're being wrong to call this "POP3". But then again, the things named by IETF kind of look like trademarks, but I don't believe that they are.
So what's to stop Microsoft from re-defining POP3, SMTP, and all those other T and F LAs to suit their own needs. Has IETF registered them as trademarks? Who can care with enough $$$ to stop Microsoft from pulling this mess, even if it were illegal, and is it?
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
How (HTF) is POP3 going to verify (and require) that your email client is Outlook/ish?! Poor little protocol - it doesn't know what it's in for!
... then call you state's Attorney General.
Of course, when they say "POP3" I guess they mean "MSPOP" or "POP-sharp-dot-net" or somesuch proprietary nonsense.
Think Java/JScript
"Because I love Pat Benatar." -- Britney Spears, when asked why she covered Joan Jett's "I Love Rock 'n' Roll"
So what the fuck happens when there is no one else to go to?
You all need to get laid.
great .sig! daft punk r0x0rs!!!
Well, here is what my friend who use windows did to get around that. They run sendmail on port 26 and changed the port setting in the eudora.ini (or the the services file in windows to say smtp goes on port 26). pretty simple, but still annoying.
Rember there was a /. post a while back pointing out that SirCam is in the WINE compatibility list. There's no registry to mess with, obviously, but it still functions.
Well, if you use qwest under Linux you may be screwed even more as you are anyway ( see below) unless you use one of their business account offerings which won't change as Qwest stated today and repeatedly before.
Look at Qwests migration paper, it states clearly:
Please note that your Qwest.net Internet access service will be unavailable starting November 5th, 2001.
<RANT MODE>
Qwest sucks major when it comes to Linux or anything out of the mainstream M$oft world.
What it boils down to that I have to know more than the support person in order to guide
them through to what needs to be fixed since they go by a computer interface solving problems in a standardized way.
The choices in their support telephone menu are:
- W95,98,3.1
-NT
-Mac
Here is my strategy:
I select NT in order to get in to a support person. If they ask me, which OS I am using, I sidestep the issue by asking them back what they want - I have many W2000, NT, W98 and the OS is not the issue - then I state the problem. If I would mention Linux, Netscape or Eurdora, I get the "not supported - we cannot help you" on their forehead display.
DSL router issues:
Qwest requires M$oft OS software in order to talk to the router.
Solution for me: I have the router accessed over the serial line and have the root access window open to be able to debunk anything via command line.
The initial support person is confronted with me being able to ping from the router in and out. This is over their head and they need to expedite the call. The results are poor, however.
POP issues:
I talk to the support person and ask them to help me to debunk the problem by using telnet in accessing their mail server.
Qwests web interface to add/change email accounts and passwords does not seem to be functional since I need to call support in order to make a change work.
DNS issues:
Their web interface apparently does not work since I need to call tech support several times in order to get changes implemented.
</RANT MODE>
Um, it's easy. Don't use their mail service.
Send mail directly from your workstation (or through firewall), and either have your mail relayed from somwhere else, or just accept mail for your domain. (but make damn sure you haven't got an open relay running!)
Or hack fetchmail to pretend it's one of those MS agents.
VOS/Interreality project: www.interreality.org
How is it advantageous to force users to use Outlook for mail retrieval in order to prevent spam?
There may be some decent reason to do it with SMTP, but not with POP. That's simply an excuse to restrict their users to their product...
Do you like German cars?
mod parent up.
Ever hear of Boeing Airlines? Of course not.
As soon as Boeing started offerening products and services (airplanes and flight service) the government slapped them on the ass and they split off Boeing Airlines and named it United Airlines.
Sure, one could argue that it wasn't a monopoly (there were manufacturers like McDonell Douglas and services like TWA), however it was highly ANTI-COMPETITIVE.
There are many other examples in [relatively] recent history of disallowing a company that has a large market share in a product from offering services [and thus forcing their product to use the service].
Under those precedents, I have NO IDEA why the government allows MSN to continue to be a part of the software giant MS. That is a blatant mix of inter-dependant products and services that was not that way before.
I seem to remember about a year ago when they took away pop access and made it all web access if you upgraded your browser to the MSN Explorer... Why I did it, I don't know, but I wasn't able to access POP mail, could only get it by going to hotmail.com. Then, using the web-based mail, I am (was and still am) unable to download attachments... though their tech support won't recognize it as a problem.
Got a new ISP, but am still locked in to MSN for 2 more years (will never send the wife to bestbuy again... )
Mike
Where is Tim McVeigh when we really need him?
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Qwest will continue to provide Business customers with Internet Service Provider (ISP) services, such as:
* Qwest.net OfficeWorksSM
* Qwest.net OfficeWorksSM LAN
This is a business customer service. In the agreement you are entitled to run any service you wish. If you have facts that indicate MSN's got it's eyes on that offering, please substantiate.
Upgrade to OfficeWorks and run your own mail server. Problem solved. How long does it take anyone around here to set up a simple mail/name server so they can manage their own mail. Think about it.... you want your mail based at an ISP anyway?
www.dedserius.com
VB != VisualBasic
MSN instituted this requirement in July. I was using Eudora and talked to their tech support several times, and every person told me you have to use Outlook or OE. I've had no luck using Eudora or Netscape.
I wish half the people who commented read previous posts.
USER jraxis
PASS foobar
STAT
LIST
RETR 1
DELE 1
RETR 2
DELE 2
QUIT
...Was that output by a Microsoft email client or another one? I certainly cannot tell, can you? If Outlook uses some special User-agent like line to verify itself, whats to stop me from including that in a POP session by hand (or by script)?
Liberty in your lifetime
My Dad has MSN (he doesn't like it, but got roped into a contract through a rebate). Up until recently, he was able to use an alternate mail program that supported SPA (Calypso). Microsoft recently BROKE this such that he was forced to use Outlook or Outlook Express. They even warned everyone in advance that they would soon need to use a "supported" client. I was skeptical until he told me they actually did it.
Maybe there's an "SPA2" or something? I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to change the protocol just to be rude.
Take mine, Wanadoo. Their answer to spam relaying? They made mail.wanadoo.fr and news.wanadoo.fr resolve differently if queried from their internal DNS, or from an outside DNS. You can't access their DNS from outside the network.
Why is it silly? Both servers are still accessible from outside the network (at least, the SMTP server still is, and is listed on dorkslayers.com, haven't checked the news server lately), and they do accept external connections and relaying. The publicized addresses though don't accept relaying.
Fucked up, heh.
Retards like you are why I turn the lights out and put marbles on the front steps after the kiddies have finished for the night. My brother shoves razor blades through his pumpkins with the nasty side exposed on the outside... might try this myself this year.
1) MacOS X isn't a monopoly- yet (if ever).
2) MS has been found to be a monopoly.
3) The rules change for someone in that position.
4) The only way Apple could be in that position (Thereby making your argument analogous) would be if they had some 80+ percent of the desktop market like MS does.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Yourself included!
... and me, too!
-
Slow Down Cowboy!
Slashdot requires you to wait 20 seconds between hitting 'reply' and submitting a comment.
It's been 17 seconds since you hit 'reply'!
Your mom has been taking care of that for us.
Find a new ISP. Vote with your wallet. If they are screwing around and limiting the usefullness of their server for you, then find a new ISP which is more accomadating.
Some ISPs will allow you to use third party SMTP servers after you have been with them for a few months.
Now what does this have to do with blocking non-MS POP3? I thought we just solved the spam problem.
It has nothing to do with the non-MS POP3. I have no idea as to why the
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OTOH, I'd be surprised to see if you made less errors when writing Dutch than I do when writing English :)
(Is there a grammatical error in that sentence? It doesn't feel right, but I don't know how to correct)
This sig under construction. Please check back later.
How many people out there actually use the provided e-mail accounts from their ISP for their regular e-mail? I know I did while I was on dial-up (ah, how I miss the handshake of the 14.4...) but that was the last ISP-based e-mail account I ever used, because my ISP has changed so much since then. I can see a normal mom/pop home user using nothing but that ISP email account, but they won't be using anything but a mac or windows anyway.
Linux: The world's best text-adventure game.
Your statement describes the obvious, yet you seem to have missed the point: you'll notice that whenever you give your email address to ANY website that's even remotely disreputable (Yahoo, AOL, Pr0n sites, etc), your mailbox will be overloaded. It's not JUST M$ that's selling out your address. Places that you leave it at will sell it wholesale- this is why I publicize my hotmail account and don't leave my real account lying around anywhere.
I use that hotmail address EVERY time I need to submit my email in order to get whatever I'm looking for - as a consequence, I average between 20 and 30 unsolicited emails a day in that account. My real account remains clean- at least until ebay starts selling addresses to the highest bidder.
All someone needs to do is run a POP3 proxy outside the MSN network on a port other than 110. The POP3 proxy will act as the liason between the user inside the MSN network and the remotely hosted mail service. I used to use mailandnews.com because it was free and allowed full POP3 access (althought it was a little slow).
I do believe that the number of customers that Microsoft keeps in this process will never justify the number that get upset, want to take action against MSN or simply leave.
Sincerely,
doug@simflex.com
Comment removed based on user account deletion
They will probably tell their vict^H^H^H^Hcustomers that Outlooks rule sets will protect them from spam. That's what our company's "Exchange group" told me when I complained about the porn spam/potential virus trojan God knows what that sprung out of my "preview pane" on selection. They told me to set up a rule to send dirty word messages to the trash. Great. Oh yes, that clueless moron had remote access to my computers and considered autoexecuting mail "normal advertising". I'd like to laugh but I know how easy it's going to be for malicious third parties to screw our mindless and weak M$ network.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
All three programs listed are MAPI based. MAPI is a messaging API, not a protocol like POP3 or IMAP. Anyway I don't see what the big deal is. THere are lots of other ISPs if you don't like MSN. It is ridiculous to accuse MS of monopolistic behavior on this since they are WAY behind AOL on ISP market share.
Once again, because this bears repeating, Microsoft licensed Roxio's Easy CD Creator for Windows XP. Roxio is NOT going to go out of business because people aren't buying Easy CD Creator. Furthermore, 99% of people already get the CD burning software of choice with their burner, and relatively few buy it at the store, so your point doesn't hold much water anyway.
Well, after reading about 2/3 of the messages, I'm utterly frustrated. You folks babble about every nonsens imagineable and engage in pointless debates if that stuff can be broken. As if that mattererd at all !
If you guys over there don't start doing something they will own you. Huhuuh ? Anybody awake there ? Sue them, kill them, vote their friends out of office, whatever. But godamned, do something! Don't squabble on slashdot.
Appaled,
f.
Here is my report on Qwest/MSN-you know what they are doing in my area, Phoenix. It is all truthfull, please read. Be sure to check the end of this post for an article on more information.
I am currently a Qwest customer in Phoenix, and have more details on the current situation.
Back in March, I signed up for Qwest DSL Select, which is a $20 per month DSL line at 640 Kbps, 272 Kbps guarenteed. Once connected, you are "always on". You are not guarenteed to connect but once your on you can remain on no matter how long it is. I also pay $20 for the Qwest DSL ISP which is now owned by MSN.
Over the summer I was charged for the DSL modem which was supposed to be free as a promotional gift. Additional charges were also added for services I did not pay for. It took two months to get the charges off and many long phone calls with people saying like "I don't know how to do this," or "I don't think my supervisor will allow."
A week and a half ago, Qwest started disconnecting my "always on" connection after each two hours of connectivity. Then there was a five minute (I call it a penalty) to wait until I could connect again. I downloaded a connection manager, and set it up to disconnect me automatically after every 1 hr 50 mins, and then immediately reconnect. It cuts out the stupid 5 minute wait. I do this for two reasons, downloading and gaming, those are very sensitive to 5 minute lags of course. 10 second reconnects are a miniscule problem in comparison. However I found that I am still getting disconnected every half-hour (with out the 5 minute penalty) and its still annoyed the heck outta me
After the first 5 days of this, I call in asking whats going on, this is not the service I originally agreed to. They say it is part of the plan, but if I didn't like it, I could switch to MSN ($20 a month, which I know still disconnects my uncle tells by the way) and the "regular" DSL for 32.50 a month. HUH? Its the same 640 Kbps line an MSN? what kind of switch is that?
So as you can see they're trying to harrass us into paying more. This was not happening a week ago. To fix this problem I was very smart. I ordered on the day after I called the COX INTERNET and DIGITAL TELEPHONE for $40 dollars a month (you have to buy your own cable modem). In comparison you pay $72 a month with qwest for broadband DSL and phone. They were advertising that on the radio today like it was something great and I know it isn't YOU'RE PAYING about $15 dollars a month more than I have been. IT'S A SCAM. THANKFULLY, I'm getting COX in exactly one week, yes I'm counting those days. I urge every switch to COX now to show them how bad they are.
Now that I told you that, check out the Arizona Republic article. It tells about the scams Qwest is involved in here and Microsoft is also to blame now seeing the new information on SlashDot. They're like about the worst companies around. I know six other people have switched in the the phoenix area to COX because of the same reasons! Share this information because it's true.
MSN POP Falsifies 4th Quarter Outlook
I got tired of reading all of the anti-ms "commentary" so I don't know if anyone else has bothered to READ THE WORDS IN THE AGREEMENT. but they clearly say that you "MUST USE THE MSN EMAIL SERVERS" in case any of you have forgotten this did not say "MSN/OUTLOOK CLIENT" We run an exchange 2000 server at work and guess what, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO USE A MS CLIENT TO ACCESS THE POP3 SERVICE. damnit this is stupid. why on earth is it so much of a bother to send your mail through their servers?? COX cable pulls this same crap, and you don't yell about that. Funny how when they DONT do this and a thousand mail spamming freaks use the cheap bandwidth to soak your mailbox you bitch about that too. You CANNOT have it both ways. All they have done is said that you have to route through their servers. big damn deal.
It doesn't have to amount to an absolute monopoly in order to be deemed anti-competitive. Do some reading before making stupid comments.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
+OK serverMumboJumbo
user anonCoward
+OK
pass myDogsName
+OK anonCoward has 0 messages (0 octets).
quit
+OK
With an MSN server, it goes wrong from the get go:
+OK serverMumboJumbo
user anonCoward
-ERR Permission denied
Now I may be a little wrong in the head, but when a POP3 server doesn't accept the standard first command of a POP3 session, then it cannot rightfully call itself a POP3 server.
Grudgingly yours for a buck,
anonCoward
Because they'll restrict outgoing SMTP to any other mail server, and their own mail server will enforce a From: address to be their own domain.
Now, you could use Reply-To: as a workaround for this annoying pettiness, except that:
1. Many mailing lists munge and/or remove/replace reply-to headers.
2. Not all email software makes it clear what the purpose for Reply-To: is.
IE, all outgoing email must be marked as being from their domain, so if you switch ISP's, anyone who replys to any past message will still send their response to your old email address.
Sorry dude, the anti-spam nazi's have made sure that your workaround is nonfunctional. (Which is why I despise their vigilante group.)
English is not associative.
Without parentheses there is ambiguity.
Only nonsensical possibilities rule out ambiguity.
These ambiguities don't exist so much in spoken English because inflection implies grouping.
But oddly enough the negation of a negative is a positive much like with First Order Logic and Arithmetic. This is not true in Spanish, where double negatives can be negative.
Appologies if it's been mentioned before, there's heaps of messages to scan through, but:
It is possible that this is just a mistake in the FAQ. Perhaps they're referring to the fact that the three programs mentioned can access a hotmail account and display messages much in the same way they display POP3 mail. There's an HTML mail plugin for them.
You can never put too much water in a nuclear reactor.
Some ISPs will allow you to use third party SMTP servers after you have been with them for a few months.
Or rather not use their third party proxies. A "third party" in this context is anything which isn't either the sending machine or something which has an MX record pointing at it.
URL, geography, & commentary:
Duh! I used to use quest until they screwed me. Now I came to my senses and I use EasyStreet here in Portland, OR. They even have a "geek" package for linux users. I was in Maine doing some training, and I wanted to know my IP address so I could get some stuff off my box here at home. I called EasyStreet and not only did a human answer the phone, but she also answered my question in about two seconds, and she sounded cute too!!! I should have asked her if she used Emacs; it could have been love.
Think they'll hire the guy who says "you've got mail" for AOL, to say "you've got virii" for MSN?
-
Patrick Cable II
Qwest allows you to pick an ISP other than MSN. Gee, would I really pick VISI.com over MSN?
F-ing A RIGHT, I WOULD!
If Qwest would offer me DSL at my house, that is.
YES, there is a McDonald's in Hanoi Square.
This story was posted in August.4 3&mode=thread
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/08/03/02322
Wish we could mod the article down.
I have no friends. Will you be my friend?
I can provide empirical proof that Microsoft is directing all span received to my Hotmail inbox, thus sparing the rest of their users.
I recently moved and had to reestablish DSL in Seattle. Qwest is the only line provider, and the deal with MSN of course applies here as elsewhere. I'm paying an extra $70 connection fee for not going with MS, but with another ISP. So far, not only has service been faster with the ISP, but every problem I've had so far has been with Qwest. Six months ago I didn't really pay attention to the DSL providers and ISPs dropping like flies, but now I'm feelin' the burn. BTW, I typed this entire message while on hold at Qwest with some genius who has to check to see if my ISP supports DSL. Fuckers.
Shuting down all email servers would stop the spam problem, but it would make email quite a bit less useful (sarcasm).
Getting rid of third party relays (including ISP provided ones) would also make spamming a lot harder. Though only something this drastic would address software which must use a third party relay (though it could be running on 127.0.0.1)
This is not just in his area. The entire qwest region (i.e. minesota to oregon) is "affected" by this.
If you were on peasant dsl (i.e. $20/mth, dial up to connect, max time on 2 hrs) - > MSN
If you are a new customer, and do not ask for a specific isp (i.e. you are a sheep) you get msn.
If you want to switch isps, you can.
MSN sends out a special modem to their customers. Areiscom or some garbage. It's hooked up through usb and it uses some kind of weird protocol. A cisco 678 can be used in its place, with quite a bit of coaxing.
If you are a MSN dsl customer, you do not have access to Qwest's third party support (i.e. if you have another isp, you can call qwest for third party support, w/msn, you can't)
1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcf
Uhm.. Anyone permitting inbound SMTP AUTH service, to persons who might have to connect from a 'big' ISP such as MSN (or Juno), should read RFC 2476.
Basically, set up your MTA to listen on port 587 in addition to port 25, and then REQUIRE smtp auth to transmit ANY mail on that port.
Hey, guys, this is Microsoft's online service.
It's been this way for years. Log on to a BBS and you use the SysOps preferred BBS software and e-mail client. I don't see anyone complaining about AOL's forcing folks to use their e-mail client.
We're not talking about rights. And I see nothing wrong with Microsoft forcing me to use Microsoft e-mail clients on their ISP. If Microsoft wants to let me use Eudora or TheBat!, that's their privilege, not my right.
If Nalgene water bottles are outlawed, only outlaws will have Nalgene water bottles.
... despite the massive advertising, you're not required to go with MSN. I'm in Phoenix, have Qworst DSL, and use CyberTrails, who are quite reasonable and actually Linux-knowledgable. There's quite a list of other ISPs who can take care of you, too.
Keep in mind that the Qworst/MSN deal actually requires that you use Windows -- even Mac users are No Longer Welcome.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
because I can't access the AOL Instant Messenger service using anything other than the AIM client....oh wait, I forgot - only Microsoft is evil.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Check Tech TV's article on access MSN using Eudora and other clients. Check the info on SSPI (may only work in IE), which is what MSN is using for POP3 verification. I'd guess that it would need to be added by Eudora or other mail clients for it to work on MSN, support is a whole different issue.
Also, complain to Microsoft for forcing this non-standard requirement, instead of your "previous" ISP. Qwest has no control over what MSN supports/requires for their customers.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
If you're forced to use Outlook to get your e-mail, there are ways to make it as "pleasant" and "secure" as possible.
/. afterall--it shouldn't be too painfull.
Want to use Linux, but need to use Outlook to get your mail? Fine, it's called a Virtual Machine. Run VMWare, load it with Win9x/NT/2k/XP, and either Outlook or the OE that comes with the OS. Put a shortcut to Outlook in the StartUp folder so that launches with Windows, and all you have to deal with is the extra overhead of the Virtual Machine's booting of Windows. Inconvenient but workable and not too difficult to set up.
Maybe WINE supports Outlook/Express? I don't know because I don't follow WINE, but I'm sure someone can tell us. In any event, VMWare with Windows installed would handle it for sure, andf pretty easily. And there's no security threat to your *real* OS, just the one in the VM. And turning off all of Outlook's bells and whistles would even eliminate that security problem. Like I said, inconvenient, but workable.
Even if you're running Windows and don't want the bloat of Outlook/Express cluttering up your OS all the time even when not in use, running a VMWare VM with a light version of Windows installed and Outlook running in that VM would be an option. You can pare down Windows using 98lite from http://www.98lite.net, BTW, making a fully functional install take up as little as 50MB--perfect if you want to run it from a VM for a limited purpose of interoperability. And if your system is that of a hardware enthusiast--hey, this is
Complicated? Yep. It would be much better just to be able to use any POP client. But if you can't, you can still run Outlook through Linux, one way or another, or even keep Outlook off your primary Windows install if that's the OS you use.
BTW, if you run Windows and are "upgrading" to WinXP, I'd wait for 98lite.net to finish work on their WinXP installer. It will allow you to *really* keep all the little bits of OE, MSN, etc., that usually get installed, from ever touching your PC. I currently use their version for Win98SE and am very happy with it--without all the extra junk installed, it's surprisingly stable and fast. Perfect for gaming and all else...
Chasing Amy
(We all chase Amy...)
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws"-Tacitus
Switch to Cox Cable Modem. I live in Phoenix and have one. It's faster, about the same price, and (now don't tell anyone...) "allows" me to run my own web, mail, ssh, ftp, etc. servers.
But I don't know if they're signing up new customers, because @Home is kaput.
Coming from Germany and basically using 3 different dialup providers a day (my linux router logs on to the one that is currently the cheapest) - reconfiguring your SMTP server everytime you switch internet providers is a pain in the neck - so I like to use SMTP Servers that require SMTP-Auth.
I have not yet seen an internet provider here in Germany that blocks port 25.
The first one I came accross was when I was in New Jersey for 5 months and took my laptop with me. I used NetZero for a while and OK - I was only allowed to use their SMTP Server but it was free and they added a line or two of advertisements.
But at least they allowed me to put in a different from address and allowed me to continue to use my normal e-mail account.
Does MSN Service in the US allow you to do at least that?
e.g.
Microsoft will provide all MSN services, etc, etc, etc, for a nearly free cost to you and your customers, just sign here. Oh, by the way, it's an exclusive contract, which means you can't offer any other ISP's, such as AOL and all your customers are belong to us.
This isn't the first time I've heard of MSN moving in like this, it won't be the last. This is a diabolical way to lock people into IE, Outlook, etc, and the Microsoft way, for EVERYTHING! Hell, it's like buying cable TV but only being able to watch one channel, which you have to BUY the decoder for your end as well as pay for the service.
Monopoly? You bet! Chances are Qwest had a monopoly on your DSL service already and you didn't care, probably because they didn't require you to use some proprietary software. Now you care. Gosh!
I'd simply write in that I plan to discontinue their service since being forced to support a monopoly offends me. Because, like your, I'm a little fish, they won't care, but I'd write letters to all your local papers, too. Make sure you outline how this is the bad thing that it is.
Who needs Invasion of the Body Snatchers when we have this usurping going on. Best of luck.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I do tech support for Qwest dial and DSL. i completely agree and understand. I have never had any problems with Qwest on linux. If you do go throught the transitition it does allow you to use pop on MSN.
What they do not say is that if you dont use Windows, you can escape from the migration, like I am doing. I talked to my manager about where linux stands and according to him, we will stay with Qwest until MSN makes a program.
~myuu@qwest.net
Comment removed based on user account deletion
If you don't like a company's services, then don't give them your business.
Otherwise, don't bitch about it.
I recently got laid off at a leading teleservices corporation that did technical support for MSN. This is because they completely dropped the contract with MSN (for what reasons I have only heard speculation and will not repeat here). I can assure you though that it was not because our standards were not good. Although it sounds like I am tooting my own horn we had probably the best call-center for all MSN service judging by the number of people calling back with ticket numbers started by people in other centers. I also judge this by the way the people wrote up their tickets without specifying what in the hell they did forcing me to go back through all the troubleshootings steps. (end rant)
First of all, MSN has two types of mail. They have the "legacy" POP3 system and the new web-based e-mail. You can find this information at MSN Support Services.
Web-based mail is kind of like what it sounds. It uses the same mechanism (XML over HTTP) that Outlook Express >=5 uses to access hotmail. However the server for @msn.com accounts is different from the server for @hotmail.com accounts. If you have an @msn.com web-based account you can go to http://supportsevices.msn.com/us/oeconfig/ to configure OE and then go to tools accounts and read the server name out of there. Note, this is also true for free @msn.com accounts. Note that only Outlook Express 5 or greater or Outlook XP can use this mail. Obviously MSN Explorer and the hotmail.com website itself are compatible with this.
Anyway, it seems the real issue is that these people would like to use their new MSN POP3 accounts with e.g. fetchmail. To correctly configure Outlook Express for MSN POP3 e-mail you must use the outgoing (POP3) server of pop3.email.msn.com (go figure) or the incoming (SMTP) server of smtp.email.msn.com. Furthermore you must select the "Log on using Secure Password Authentication" option as well as select the option under Outgoing Mail server that "My server requires authentication". You then must press the settings button and be sure it is using the same settings as the outgoing mail server. That is it logs on using SPA with the same U/P as the POP3 server.
Because of this MSN states that you MUST use Outlook to get your MSN POP3 mail. This is not entirely correct. What you must have is a client that supports SPA. Why is MSN doing this? MSN's reason: to reduce SPAM. However they tell customers simply this because most of their customers are rather computer illeterate (especially the former AOL lusers). The real reason is that since they contract out Dial-up Points of Presences (Pops, not to be confused with POP3 e-mail) that either A) they must use the POP3 before SMTP hack, or B) You must login to the SMTP server to send mail. If they didn't do this then any jackass dialing into one of those POPs even with another ISP would be able to send tons of SPAM through MSN servers. There have been plenty of /. articles about this before and anyone familiar with how contracted out POPs interfere with the ability to allow SMTP access to only your subscribers should know what I am talking about.
Now, MSN /could/ have simply kept the plaintext login POP3 and only required you to use a plaintext login for SMTP. However they decided that not only should they require a login for SMTP but at the same time they should require secure password authentication for both POP3 and SMTP. In other words, if they were going to have to have people change their Outlook mail settings they might as well knock out the ability of people to sniff the packets and retrive their users passwords while they are at it.
Problem is that apparently SPA in Outlook is an MS specific thing. Well, what do you want them to do. The only way for outlook to support not sending the login in cleartext is to use SPA. So therefore they enabled SPA on their mailservers and disabled clear-text logins. Of course theoretically they could include some other more open method of secure password authentication for use with other clients, or they could open up the MS SPA protocol. Or they could just say the hell with it because they only officially support MSN using MS software on Windows OSes (which actually does NOT include WinCE, you must contact your OEM for WinCE support with MSN).
Basically all that needs to be done is for other mail clients to support MS SPA. How to do this I am not really sure as I have not put much thought into it as I don't use MSN myself except for free accounts. All the free accounts use hotmail based e-mail.
There is of course another option. You could always "upgrade" your account to web-based from POP3 and then either go to the hotmail website to get your e-mail or use Outlook Express >=5 or Outlook XP to get your email in a real mail client (if you can call Outlook a real mail client, but hey, at least's it better than www.hotmail.com). There does exist a script (PERL I think) for retrieving mail from hotmail but I have looked at that code and it is really really crappy (apologies to the guy who wrote it, but I am sure he also knows that it is nothing more than a quick hack). Theoretically there is no reason that Evolution should not support the MS HTTPmail protocol. Turn on HTTP logging in the Advanced tab of OE properties and then open up the log in notepad. You will notice that the schema is relatively easy to figure out even though to the best of my knowledge it is not published anywhere. Evolution already uses XML extensively and has all of the framework necessary for parsing XML. I assume it also has the framework necessary for accessing an HTTP server in general. Therefore it should be rather trivial to write an MS HTTPmail backend for Evolution. In fact, I am surprised that no one has done so (I guess none of the developers use hotmail). I have toyed with the idea of doing one myself but 1) I use balsa, and 2) I have not done any programming with XML. However now that evolution is fairly stable I may go ahead and write this. Hell, I don't have anything pressing to do until Monday except clean the garage so we'll see. There's never a bad time to learn more programming techniques, and XML is one of the most popular things today so not only would I personally benefit from learning XML but also benefit with being able to access hotmail from evolution. And note well... if I do write this I do intend to support the advertisement properties as best as possible (i.e. opening up a small frame at the bottom and displaying a webpage in it). I know it seems stupid, but hey, they deserve to get paid even if they are MSN. And if anyone really wants to they can just change the code later to take out the ads.
Anyway, I hope this clears up a lot of the confusion people are having with this. I see at this point over 600 comments have been posted, a few reasonable, most along the lines of fsck Microsoft. People, I hate MS as much as everyone here. They are theives and crooks and must be beaten. However, as the cliche says: You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. The only way MS will be beaten is when people stop bitching about them and just go do better than them. Every time I bitch about MS to my mother she reminds me: Then go write something better. While everyone has argued this point to death the bottom line is that in some respects MS software is "better" than open-source/free software. Even if only in the marketing sense of better.
-Dave
Imagine if everyone stopped buying anything ms tomorrow. Microsoft has so much cash, they could be assholes for another 10 years before they would fall. Pure capitalism will in the end.
I don't want to wait that long.
I've heard that Qwest services was pretty horrible to start with.
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
If an "ISP" blocks *any* traffic, it is not an ISP (Internet Service Provider) anymore. The core business of an ISP is to allow me to participate on the whole Internet and communicate using IP, otherwise it's just a better AOL. If it fails to provide free IP communication to the Internet, it fails to do its job.
If you argue that blocking direct SMTP is a good idea, good luck arguing when the RIAA wants Freenet traffic to be blocked.
Qwest also runs backbones, i.e. even if you are not a Qwest customer (maybe even in a different country), your traffic might pass through Qwest.
Does that mean that MS may have a chance to peek on that traffic?
Isn't Quest.net owned by Bill? This could explain
some of this.
I must tell you however, you must run windows or mac os to get connected with the Intel modem the give you. It uses an oddball PPPoA which doesn't work in linux.
:(
If you get lucky and can pay for the business plan, they give you a cisco modem which should work in linux.
I'm switching over to cox in a week which will work faster, less expensive, and better in Linux. I have to use Win98SE with ICS, then connect my linux box up to it! Beware! If you use quest now, you're doomed to be using Windows some how or another! Email included
Find another ISP. Refuse to use Lookout or MSN Exploder. In Tucson Qwest DSL customers have the same options, and there are several local ISPs that will be happy to take your business. AZStarnet.com is one.
...
I use QWest DSL for all my business clients, but we're not being forced to MSN
"A gun is a tool, Marian. No better, no worse than any other tool. An axe, a shovel, or anything." Shane (1953)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
As much as this sucks keep in mind that there are alternatives. I have a Qwest DSL line but it goes to a different Internet provider. I have a reliable DSL line from Qwest and a great Internet connection from XMission. Most locations have _many_ alternatives to MSN for the Internet portion of the service.
You don't have to use Qwest or MSN as your ISP with DSL. I have Qwest DSL, I have an Indie ISP, most markets have at least 40 ISP to choice from. You can actually save money doing this. How?
Well, here's a dirty little secret that right on your DSL bill each month. When Qwest did it's semi-hostile take over of U S West everyone was looking to make sure the letter of the law was being followed. One of the things that came out is upstream traffic would have to be carried by an outside company. Now some would think the cost of this would be rolled into the $19 ISP fee on your bill. No. They threw a $5 charge into the tax and fee section where no one would be able to find it.
So, really you get to pay 24.99 for your ISP charges.
It should be noted that before Qwest took over U S West was one of the few National ISP's that uses tons of GNU and Opensource. In fact Qwest Internet is one of the largest FreeBSD installations in the US.
Microsux could get dinged again for anti-trust violations, if State and Federal prosecutors look at it.
:)
If Microsoft continues to push out competitive solutions, not only on the operating system market(re: Linux), but also in the software solution market, Microsoft may find themselves being filled against not only by governmental bodies, but also by other software companies... Now THERE'S something I'd like to see, microsoft being sued for punative damages in a class action suit involving 1000 SOFTARE COMPANIES FROM AROUND THE WORLD. HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
In case any of you hadn't noticed, WINXP doesn't recognize Linux systems or Files shares on a network (effectively forcing any office wishing to use WINXP to use ONLY WINXP ).
No, joke. Don't believe me? Find a pirated version and check it out yourself. (Activation codes? Yeah Right. You didn't really we were gonna have pay for that SHIT did'ja Bill?)
Are you getting the feeling that perhaps MicroFUX is a little more intimidated by *nix users than they're letting on?
Anyway, just my 10 cents, you can keep the change
When you feel like screaming explitives with all you got. Because you know there is only one reason they can get away with this... And just what the #@*% are you going to do about it?!?
Damn! I feel like I am dealing with the Mafia. Pretty soon, if I am not using the proper MS software, somebody with a baseball bat is going to come and bash my head in.
if you have the isp speakeasy in your area, sign up right now and drop the spineless bastards as soon as you can. if you read your tos (and you *do* read every word, right?) you cannot beat speakeasy. as long as you're a "good netizen" (e.g. don't run p*rn servers) they let you run any service you want. as it should be. have had them over one year and have had excellent connectivity and customer service. i'd pay twice what i currently pay for speakeasy, a isp that respects you, treats you like an adult, and provides good value. and no i don't work for them. i just hope covad says afloat :(
I know this may seem strange, but can I just say: full credit to the web designers at Qwest for their work on that page. It was the most accessible web page I have seen as well. I couldn't find a single fault.
They had clear URLs that reveal site structure, all images have relevant ALT tags, proper use of HTML entities (not extended characters), abbreviation expansions.
Top marks.
Now we return you to your regularly scheduled anti-MSN flaming ...
when your account gets too large to be active or maintainable. If you have noticed, they cancel your hotmail account (and PASSPORT) if it hasn't been used for 3 months. I had a close call returning from summer vacation to find my account almost deleted.
I know this is a plan to have me try to get a new passport when my old one "dies" / becomes non-current for MS info-hungry databases. Consider MS's plan to make every XP user get a passport. It makes sense they'd want everyone to update their personal info and therefore make passports easily expirable like the XP non-registration issue.
Now that I think about it, what happens when you have never had a passport, get one to make XP shut up, and then you never use it? Will XP notice and start reminding you again? Will it threaten us to shut down the OS if you don't keep it current by proving you have the latest?
"Wireless : LAN
They will have problems, I smell .vbs files and javascript files and all those nice viruses that everyone else has to worry about. My ISP (telus.net) has shutdown port 80 way back from NIMDA. I have nothing to say about ISPs that choose to run only one product, especially with the track record of Outlook and Outlook Express. I am tired of being penalized for other peoples choice in insecure software. I think the doom of the ISP is near. I just laugh whenever a new outlook virus comes out. Then I cringe because everyone asks me about it. I should just give them the microsoft phone number.
The true story is that MSN rents bandwidth, but most of the companies MSN was in bed with went out of business. As previously stated, Qwest has a hell of a lot of bandwidth, so basically they were able to get MSN in a very profitable position and exploit the deal. All '.Net Internet Access' accounts supposedly are forcively transitioned by Nov 20 (?). How Mac users are gonna get out of I don't know. Customers will pay the same for a year and MSN will bill on the Qwest phone bill. If you call the Qwest tech support number you will probably be able to get more info than I am willing to type.
I have to stay in the loop since I am a DSL tech for Qwest =)
~Myuu
forget it.
I've been trying to submit (what I consider to be) a bug to CERT that allows spammers to KNOW if an account is alive, and being checked.
h oo.com
All a spamer has to do is include a 1-pixel image in the email that has a URL such as:
http://www.spammersite.com/image1.jpg?username@ya
This way, they look at their webserver logs, and they have a pretty list of all the email addresses where people ARE DEFINATELY checking their email.
What's the easy solution? For email clients and web sites not to display any images UNLESS they are inline (i.e. an attachment).
So, SPAMMERs, SPAM away. It seems that (just like the 9-11 attacks) no-one cares enough to stop you. I suggest you exploit it as horrendously as possible, and flood our unsecured email system with loads of crap. Maybe then people will get off their ass and see the system needs to be improved (with SPAMFILTER being the best solution currently: http://www.munts.com/spamfilter/) or else it's just as dangerous as a fully-fueled airplane overhead.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
A demonstration of my point, from the VMWare site itself:
x 5. jpg
http://www.vmware.com/products/desktop/img/linu
Chasing Amy
(We all chase Amy...)
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws"-Tacitus
are you just not very well informed about "corporate types" ?
Seen the precedents, I am sure that SPA Encryption
is something stupid like your username+email xored
with "Linux Users Are Wheenies"
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Sounds like a standard email web bug to me. CERT might be ignoring you, not because it isn't a problem, but because it's already a known issue. A quick google search on '"web bugs" email' gives several thousands hits. There's also been some web bug coverage on Slashdot -- I'm fairly sure that I first heard about them either on here or in comp.risks.
Read the message the above was in response to.
CERT seems to be the only place that exposed bugs get much attention. That was the whole reason I went off ranting about airline safety... It's simple, and anyone can see the problem, but nobody cares enough to fix it.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Is it bald-faced lying or bold-faced lying? I always get those confused.
Yes! Bigger heads on hammers now!! Much better for destroying computers with.
I bought the TDK VeloCD. It rocks.
And it comes with Nero.
--corky6921
SE Portland here. If you had Hevanet, there would have been no hell.
Only good stuff.
Bush's education improvements were
and no, having official correspondence go out under @msn.com isn't an option.
If the users are ashamed to be using MSN for email and/or dialup then why are they?
-- iCEBaLM
Using Worldnet's consumer service as an example:
With smaller regional ISPs even these steps may not be necessary, but it'll vary by ISP. Some hosting providers may also start providing alternatives for connecting to send mail (SSL tunneling, redirected ports, etc.) if there's demand for them.
fencepost
just a little off
Qwest will only sell you DSL if you answer their "What OS are you running" question with Windows or MacOS.
Thus, in the Qwest statement "eligible" means Windows customers, who already have the MSN-imposed mail programs for free on their systems.
As far as Qwest is concerned, the only other customers are Mac owners, and a solution for them will be imposed shortly.
So, for Linux folks like me, the option may be to use my Mac for email access or to spend twice as much per month for Qwest's Business DSL service, which will stay qwest.net (Qwest only sold their "home accounts" to MSN...)
Here's the dirty little secret, though.
If you want to change ISPs, you have to cancel your DSL service and re-order it, because they have to reprovision things at the CO.
So, you lose DSL service for at least a few weeks, get put to the back of the provisioning line (so if your CO is short on DSLAM connections, you lose), and of course they have far fewer connections available for third party ISPs, so the wait may be even longer.
In short it's "sure, you can change ISPs, but don't expect to have service back for six months or more..."
Because they have their own domain? I can imagine how painful it'd be if I had to ssh to my web host every time I wanted to send mail (and I'm lucky enough to have a shell account that isn't trapped behind my cable modem with the evil ToS, and know how to use it).
I didn't have troubles with _my_ router (Cisco 675). Qwest seemed to have problems on their network all the time. I would have troubles reaching Slashdot and I would call Qwest support telling them that I was logged into my router and I could trace route up to xxx.xxx.xxx and they would usually tell me to click my Start Button...
The concept of "double negative" as applied to natural language is nonsense. You are talking about negative concord, which is a system of constraints requiring certain grammatical items (e.g. determiners, pronouns) to be expressed with a special form under the scope of negation. All varieties of English show negative concord; the difference between the ones with "double negation" and the standard ones is the choice of words used under the scope of negation. The grammatical rules are essentially the same in both kinds of dialect.