Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft vs. Modded Xboxes
hikeran writes "The Register has an article about how Xbox live service is now apparently banning Xboxes that have been mod chipped. Basically it seems this is one of the many uses of those unique id's used in Microsoft's software. Next up bannings for using foul language on Xbox live service?? Be careful what you say.. you may be playing with an Xbox Live admin..."
Right or wrong, good move or bad, being as how its their service, Microsft can ban who ever the hell they want.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
Well microsoft is loosing like $160.00 bucks per xbox sold already..why not piss their customers off even more and drops sales even lower. Way to go microsoft!
.[[erax0r]].
bannings for using foul language on Xbox live service
Is this bad because it is Microsoft? Or because your 5-year-old's 1st ammendment rights are being violated?
I don't really see this as such a bad thing... My ISP does not support home networking, so they will not give help until the network is taken down and proven to not be causing the problem.. Microsoft's support team was not trained to deal with modded xboxes, so I can see why there would be a rule to not giving support to those with the mods done.
Slashdot uses the same rationale to justify its IP banning and $rtbl'ing. But hey, it's "M$", so it must be wrong!
Just disable your mod chip before you use Live. Some people have been reporting that it works fine for them. Be careful though - if you forget to disable it before logging in, your box will be banned permanently.
I think this is good on the side that hopefully it will keep out rogue players that want to write their own code, or hack a game for cheats.
Although it is bad because I have a mod chip. Although I have played online with it, turned off of course.
I am sure they will continue to try and fight it, but like everything good luck on fighting piracy/modding, if it uses 1010010's then its hackable.
Doesn't this just help maintain the integrity of the game play? Can't modded X-Boxen be altered to give unfair advantages by changing the software like players did in Unreal?
And now they're gonna control what we say!
Your point was lost amongst your idiocy.
Next up bannings for using foul language on Xbox live service?? Be careful what you say.. you may be playing with an Xbox Live admin...
Btw, users can nark on anyone for foul language -- it doesn't have to be caught by an admin. (Again, foul language seems to mainly come from 13-year olds who think it makes them sound older.)
That'll get rid of all the cheaters, pirates and Linux users.
Hah!
Coming soon - pyrogyra
It'll help keep cheaters off XBox Live. A cheat-free online game experience is something most people I know would give their first-born for.
And as fair as the implication that Microsoft banning people who've modded their XBox, as soon as you modded your XBox, stop whining and just take some responsibility for your actions. It's not like you didn't know full well what you were getting yourself into when you cracked open the case and started messing around with a soldering iron.
NO CARRIER
If you don't like MS's terms, just don't use it... Vote with your money... don't buy the XBOX, don't buy XBoxLive...
Looking for any old 8-bit Heathkit/Zenith software/hardware - http://heathkit.garlanger.com
What does using 82's have to do with any thing??
Ok ok I'm going I'm going, just put the gun down.
Happy Noodle Boy says "F###ing doughnut! Mock me? You fried cyclops!!"
But hey, fuck you if you can't take a joke.
Coming soon - pyrogyra
I'm all for modchips in Xboxes, it's one of the large reasons I use them (I helped work on them before the protection scheme got cracked.) However, I believe it is fair for Microsoft to ban the use of modchips on their Xbox Live service. We all know that Microsoft loses money on their Xboxes, and the regain it with the games. If a player is costing them money, I don't believe they have a right to complain when they can't utilize another (in my opinion) underpriced service. Further, this won't stop everyone, as dual-BIOS setups (one with the regular BIOS and one with the modified chip) for the Xbox have been around for ages.
Good thing they don't do this with their dialup serv.... *KSSSHHHHHH
Connection Interrupted.
As much as I hate to admit it, I'm torn between my hatred for the heavy-handed M$ action, and the proported resoning that it will help prevent cheating in their online games.
Nothing destroys a game community faster than the proliferation of cheaters. And, the Xbox stands to profit nicely if it can develop those communities (it's certainly not profiting without them). If I pay my hard-earned money every month to play an online game, the last think I want is to have no chance to fairly compete.
On the other hand...is that what's happening, or is this just another excuse to enable the control freaks at M$ to continue their reign?
Chaos, panic, disorder...my work here is done.
Sierra has agressively pursued permanently banning cheaters from WON -- and you know how much success they've had? Almost NONE.
Don't believe me? Go here: http://www.cheat-network.net/ and get the 4dv4nc3d GLHack for Counter-Strike -- it can't be detected.
MOD chips are quite difficult to hack -- and even if the games do have it, it will either be fixed by a crack group in the game rip, or the mod chips will be modded further. Any decent Xbox hacker would be in the know, and it will hardly do anything -- it's just more of Microsoft's money down the drain feebly attempting to stop piracy.
You mean you actually have to *gasp* buy the games to play them online? Jeezus I know slashdoters are cheap but come on. Blizzard has been doing this forever but because their parent company is a foreign evil empire nobody cares. Get over it, if you want to use a Microsoft product you gotta pay for it.
"the world's worst typers untie!"
.[[erax0r]].
I'm a game producer that has worked on online games, I will say that this is a very good thing. You don't know the trouble that we go through to make sure that people do not cheat in an online game and you know what, they figure out a way around it anyway. This is the first time that we have hardware level control over the game .exe's integrity. With MS's code sign system the game .exe is not hackable and this is a good thing for all of us. Hacking RUINS online games and if this is what they have to do to stop it then ok.
Why would they want to be responsible for some hacker bringing down their server because they hacked their box to do [fill in the blank] and screwed with some important protocol or something that causes their server to crash?
As for using foul language... what is your problem with that? Again, their server, they make the rules. You are not entilted to anything. If you have problems with their rules, than I suggest you don't buy one. Oh, and anti-language rules are relatively common in MMRPGs so it's not like that would be so shocking either. I actually prefer to play games with others who do not continuously spam my screen sexually immature comments.
Where is all the outrage about all those stickers on your components that say "warranty void if removed"? Or do you only rant about Microsoft (that was rhetorical).
"It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
Next up bannings for using foul language on Xbox live service??
I'm all for it! at least they need to make 2 channels.. 1 for kids and 1 for those that think profanity is an art form
All I know is that after playing one of the Ps2 voice enabled games, I will never ever use the voice side again... too many immature pottymouths and idiots just screaming or jamming.. it ruins the idea of it.
so yes it needs moderators banning those that have no self control.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Microsoft aren't doing anything illegal here, put simply - to use xbox live you require an original microsoft xbox.
:)
People should be free to mod their hardware as they see fit (since it's theirs).
This is a bit like me fitting rocket boosters to the back of my car and driving it around at 200 mph. Sure i can do it and that's probaly legal. Driving it on public roads is of course not.
Anyway i thought everyone that bought xbox mod chips wanted them to make them into linuXBoxes - what the hell will they be doing with xbox live, what they realy need access to is apt-get live
The documentation that comes with the Xbox doesn't guarantee use of Xbox Live just like your computer doesn't come with a guarantee for internet access. Besides, didn't they flat out say they were going to do this a while ago?
What I want to know is how long it'll be before an alternate network is created. Weren't people playing some of these games online beore Xbox Live was even in beta?
I will admit that not everyone uses modchips for legal purposes, but there are many uses for them other than pirating games. With a modchip, you can write and run your own code, and run Linux, things you cannot do on an unmodified box.
So I buy an Xbox, have it connect through a sniffing proxy (a linux box with a modem and a serial nullmodem connection). Then I mod it, do the same. At this point, I should be able to start spoofing Xboxen, with fake or even strategically chosen GUIDs. That asshole that beat me at Q3 3 times last sunday? He better hope his GUID isn't available to me through my proxy. The admin who chewed me about about saying "cunt" in the #kindergarden area of Xbox Live? He better hope I can't find his GUID.
Hell, you might even just start carpet-bombing things. I can imagine even writing a little worm, that goes out hitting cable modem users, who still have a dialup. Late at night, it dials out to the service, and spoofs a modded Xbox. Hundreds of them, thousands of them. This could be fun...
I mean, there are cryptographic methods that could prevvent something like this, but after all, we are talking about M$.
This is done in many arenas. Mini dish hackers, cable tv boxes modders, etc.. etc.. it's been going on for a long time, and well it's their service with their contract/EULA, you don't have to agree to it.
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
People with "unmodded" machines are being wrongfully banned as well. Happened to me when I hooked up my xbox live kit.
.[[erax0r]].
Is it me or is the title of the article a little out there?
"MS accused of banning mod chip Xbox from Live service"
They later go on to say,
"...we're already seeing how unique hardware IDs could be used in anger by certain companies."
Well goddamn. I know microsoft is evil, but come on. Just because you don't want to follow the rules, doesn't mean they'll let you play with there toys. And I'm sure Xbox Live is burried in enough EULA's and of course backed with enough laweyrs to prove it.
I would have no problem if this article was rewritten as a non-attack on microsoft, and more as an informative article. Who's accusing them? I'm fairly damn certain,
"MS Found guilty of locking out modding bitchez from Xbox Live, Snoochie Boochies!"
All your fault. You cracked the case. You installed the chip, or had it installed.
--
I'm not anti-mod here either before the flames roll in. I'll be waiting for something worthwhile to mod my Xbox. As an added benefit of waiting for something worthwhile, if I do mod my Xbox modchips will be several years more mature.
Computational Madness in a round package.
Sega's online services for the Dreamcast failed because of two things: cheating, and the least common denominator of players.
Mod an X-Box? You're not a cheater? That's nice. I'll believe you - right after I believe that Bill Gates has an evil(tm) undersea lair.
Maybe I'm sour from the Dreamcast debacle, but I've learned to trust no one when it comes to cheating in online games.
At any rate, the decision still falls to you whether or not to mod your X-box. Microsoft isn't forcing you to pull out the soldering iron, and then booting yer arses off.
Now, as for chat, I'd love to see them start booting people for it. The sad part is, it usually isn't the children who are foul mouthed.
Still, I admit, I like to scream expletives at various intervals. It'd be nice that if they ever do consider a chat/communcation/etc. decency ruleset, they'll allow people to mark games with a rating and such. Thus, if you want to play HotCh1xx0rWithGuns 3: Return of the Wonderbra!, you could simply point out that, hey, if you join game Q, you'll likely hear things not suitable for some people. (IE, graphic drooling over pixels.)
It does talk about an interesting situation though with the future of Palladium. Where a lifetime (of the product) ban can be enforced. This could be very difficult on a computer where sometimes even a person who doesn't ever rip a CD/DVD/TV streams can by mistake and without knowledge play content that has been taken without permission.
This could especially be a problem if some malicious person were to put together a e-mail virus that could act as such content, and in effect cripple massive amounts of computers...
Microsoft is allowed to ban whoever they want, for whatever reason.
This is very similar to what sattelite providers have done. Some have used eeprom updates that completely ruined systems that had pirated cards. Microsoft in turn is banning users who have used illegal mod chips which in turn could let a user use pirated games. This is no different than blizzard using serial numbers to prevent people from playing online using pirated versions of their products (blizzard is a prime example of a company that tries hard to curb piracy, despite many attempts to hack their protection such as bnetd).
Most importantly though, if you don't like MS's perfectly legal tactics, you have the perfectly legal solution of not buying their products.
GoatPigSheep, the 3 most important food groups
Foul language is a banable offense on most online games.
If people want to mod their XBoxes, Microsoft should have no say in what they can do with what they purchased. I think we can all agree on that. Now, if Microsoft wants to ban modded XBoxes from their service, who are you to say what they can or can't do? This is much like what happened with the bnetd people. Blizzard didn't want bnetd clients to connect to their servers (because of issues with cheat protection and the like), so they blocked them.
If you don't like what Microsoft is doing with XBox Live, don't pay for the service. Or better yet, don't but a XBox! Hell, you could even make your own XBox Live service for all the banned boxes if you felt so inclined. Their rules may be stupid, but it's their house, and it's their rules. If you don't like them, go elsewhere.
the people who buy an xbox for modding arent gonna be connecting to the xbox's online service.
William Hello and welcome to the Xbox interactive online chat support! My name is William.
...so which is the "superior gaming" platform and which is the "semi-PC"? ;)
Jon Do you have my question or do i have to type it again.
William Microsoft will defend the gaming experience for our users on Xbox Live, and will not approve the use of any game cheating devices for the Xbox gaming platform. This is a violation of the Xbox Live Terms of Use. If users attempt to access Xbox Live with an Xbox installed with modified hardware or unapproved software, their Xbox will be blocked from accessing the service now and in the future. Microsoft reserves the right to take other appropriate action in the future, which could include canceling the user's subscription.
Jon So when Microsoft said we wont take action they were just lying
William No, the software for catching and blocking hadn't been fully perfected before.
Jon People use the mods to access music, movies, and pictures for legit reasons. So i guess to play online and acess data on a pc I should go with a Sony.
Jon So is the account blocked or is the xbox itself blocked
William The Xbox itself, the account is actually useable on a new console. The original console with the chip will never work again even if it is removed.
Jon OK. Thanks for your help. I'm off to buy a Sony.
William Thank you for using Xbox Interactive Online Support. I hope that you have found our session today helpful. For your convenience, you will receive by e-mail a detailed transcript of our chat, including all site links, with a ticket number for your future reference. At the end of the chat, there will be a small survey. Be sure to fill it out! If you need further assistance, please come back and visit us again.
Jon Thanks and I'll tell Sony how great Microsoft has been in convincing me in buying a PS2
William I guess it depends on whether you want superior gaming or semi-PC possibility. Either way have fun!
-------------
On a side note, I'm saving the $50 I would've spent on XBOX Live. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. You claim you're losing money by people modding their Midways? What WTF do you think is happening if you won't even let them PAY for a service like XBL?
It also allows you to play imported games or try and develop stuff for the X-Box.
Tim
Omnia vestra castrorum habetur nobis.
Property rights do not disappear as soon as you can do without the revenue.
Good or Evil: Make your choice.
As for the implication about swearing, GOOD! I don't mind a "Damn" when something happens now and then, but if I want to hear non-stop-increadibly-vulgar-peel-the-paint-off-eve ry-single-thing-within-ten-miles swearing, I'm sure I could go find that somewhere. But I don't want to hear it when I'm trying to play on online game. If you can't deal with not doing good in a stupid game without shouting enough obscenities to make all nuns on your contenant have a heart attack, then you need some serious help. I've been using Live a little (I got into the beta) and I haven't heard much of it, but I am expecting a certain level of maturity when I play online (about age 7). The constant idiotic trashtalking is anoying too, and people who make tons of sexual references and innuendo. I HOPE MS bans people who do this repeatidly. Considering that they are positioning this as something for kids, they most definatly should controll that sort of thing.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
The fact that they're banning modded consoles is irrelevant - and this story is here only because, for some reason, some at /. has decided that Microsoft has no right to maintain control over the hardware they sell - just like Sony and Sega.
I read into a few articles and it goes on to explain that they only ban your xBox, which I assume means their Serial Number.You can still use your xBox Live account on another xBox, you just can't use the xBox that got banned on the xBox Live service anymore.
So try to connect, if you get banned go over to a friends house and play. xBox is much more fun to play in groups than alone anyway!
Long live unreal!
/sarcasm
It's obvious that microsoft wouldn't ever run an unmoderated message board, but that thread is so uniformly in support of banning modd'ed xboxes that I suspect the whole thing is faked. Kind of funny to think about microsoft paying people to sit around writing stuff like "Xbox is tehe best anyway so why bother moding it??" and "well mod chips cost 500 dollars". I'm just waiting to see someone with a PhotoCD stock image for their user photo...
__
Choose mnemonic identifiers. If you can't remember what mnemonic means, you've got a problem. - Larry Wall
If you don't like the terms on the service offered, then just don't use it. This is the whole point of capitalism, if the majority are dissatisfied with a service, a competing service which satisfies this majority will have great potential por profit. Go start one.
sheesh, it feels good to flame someone for being retarded.
Then we could connect to the live service and get microsoft to bann a twenty thousand Xbox numbers.
Just go in sequential order and make them think there are 30-40K Xbox's out there with mod chips in them. Perhaps if all thier customers were banned microsoft would rethink thier stance on it and open it up.
-THIS SPACE FOR RENT!
-frozen
I'm not always the brightest pixel in the stream
No modchips to let you cheat :-)
It's not unprecedented either. Drop in a modchip on your cable converter to get HBO for free and see how fast your cable company splices YOUR wire when they find out.
Hack YOUR copy of quake or unreal and see how many anti-cheat servers will let you log on if they discover you're not running the default client.
It's very, very simple. If you don't like the rules, don't join the service.
You mean, they're actually trying to ban people from using pirated software on their network? What nerve!
Seriously folks, does this shock (or even surprise) anyone? Any company would do the same damn thing (yes even Redhat).
SKO = TROLL......
= Dumb AOL User
= All Around Ass
= Stupid Kunt & Obeese
It's no secret that the XBox is a test ground for pallidium and digital rights management. Consider that with .NET and pervasive DRM chips, MSFT could enforce who participated in "their" network, effectively creating a separate internet.
The challenge is - can you install the mod and get on Xbox live, anyway?
Can you enable your intellectually pedestrian friends to do the same? The entire nation?
MS is doing this to *encourage* modchipping. It's like a contest; MS awards m4d pr0p5, in the form of a l4\/\/5u1t, to the first h4x0r who builds a kit that can modify the xbox in a way their servers can never, ever detect; it must be usable even if the person you give it to:
1) Has no technical training.
2) Lacks even a basic understanding of electronics.
3) Hell, they can't change a lightbulb.
4) They're blind.
5) They're a technophobe, they have alzheimers disease.
6) Hell, they're dead. Ease of use must be total.
The winner gets instant geek celebrity and free representation by the EFF.
The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.
Buy another Xbox to play Live, while the modded one to play offline. End of story.
There is a slight snag, it cost $49 to sign up. ;0)
Help fight continental drift.
I don't understand why people are making such a big deal about this; as far as online gaming on a console goes, what's the difference between banning hardware mods and banning unfair software mods? This type of banning has been done since the first multiplayer games. Albeit the mod-chip is intended for a good use, but just like allowing software to ignore and allow mods, letting it go would just be an opportunity for the lamers of the community to abuse the power and ruin it for everybody. I suppose I'm playing the devil's advocate, but I think that Microsoft certainly has the right to do this. Heck, if you're going to be doing X-Box hacking, why doesn't anyone make a new mod-chip to connect to mod-chip specific network?
But it definitely seems wrong to ban someone because of a modded box. Ok, so you mean to tell me that just because I want to run Linux on my X-Box means I cant use X-Box Live? I could see if, down the road, cheating that was PROVEN to be linked to modded x-boes became an issue, then banning them would make sense. As things stand now, this is just another attempt by MicroSoft to stifle creativity and Linux adoption.
No, I dont own an X-Box, and no I dont plan on it either, because of things like this. Though, considering how MicroSoft is taking a loss on them, maybe I should just buy a bunch of them, not buy any games, and let them collect dust on a shelf someplace.
Why just the other day, RedHat had me disconnected from the internet for running my own code on my computer.
I have absolutely no clue how your analogy about RedHat makes _any_ sense in this context. Please enlighten me.
You'd think, getting caught once or twice at it. . .
Yeah, and if they didn't ban it, many of you would be flaming MS for allowing cheaters to use cheat chips.
Is it really necessary to scrutinize MS on this subject when 99% of you know deep down that if Sony did the same thing, you wouldn't care?
that pisses me the hell off 'cause your innocent little head is too good to hear certain combinations of sounds made in succession... profanity is a socially imbued idea that does nothing but 'cause people like you to shake your finger for no good reason. Get over it and join the real world.
Too bad it dosen't do anything against Enigma, the non-soldered mod chip.
:-p
Sorry, MS
Ban foul language. After playing Halo on GameSpy for the past four months I, personally, would be just fine without having to have my fifteen-year-old sit down next to me for what should be a relatively innocent game while a box named "Cunt" comes online for a game, sporting players with names like "CumzEezy" and "KlitLickker".
Yeah, yeah, I know, "just turn the channel" blah, blah, blah, but when the vocal minority is comprised of thirteen-year-olds that think that sort of thing is phunny, heh, heh, it just starts to sap fun out of the game and then what are you left with? Eventually you have to "turn the channel" so much you might as well not play? To hell with that. So ban the morons. If you can't think of a decent, social way to express yourself then stick to high quality software like GameSpy.
how long until someone decides to distribute the game for free, and charge for the service...
In Australia, the privacy commissioner will take a dim view of this list, so will the Competition and Consumer regulatory body, if not then off to the small claims court. I imagine Europe will have something to say.
342th post you fucks! eat my fecal matter
Freedom of speech? Sure, but only in a public un-controlled enviornment. Are you allowed to stand up in church and begin chanting satanic verses? My guess is no. How about all those times when you spoke out of turn in the classroom and the teacher beat you over the head with a stick for it? Sure aint no freedom of speech violation in prohibiting you from doing it again. Ok, well how about at a press conference when the president is making a talk about how we should all attack IRAQ and steal their oil and you decide to stand up and recite shakespear, which in turn gets you thrown out and bannned. Starting to follow the point? There is no 1st ammendment right violation here. Sorry.
The whole issue about stopping cheaters is valid and I'd support it. I can't stand playing online games with cheaters.
However, I hate MS and would probably never buy an X-Box based on that principle.
The day will hopefully soon be here when the game client doesn't even have the ability to cheat becuase everything important is done at the server. We just need more bandwidth.
- Previous Slashdot Article,
- The ACCC (Australian Competition and Consumer Commision) media release.
If someone wants to play import games on line they should be able to and all the checking process should not be placed on wether or not someone is "modchipping" the hardware.Some games are never released in Australia or take a long time to come her. Althhough at the moment it does look like we will be getting all of the games that can be played on-line their is no requirement of Microsofts part to continue this trend and the idea that just because were not in America should mean we can't play a certain game on-line is ridiculous and Microsoft should stop been such control freaks.
--
nich
37 - what does it stand for really...
That'll show 'em, boy howdy.
Side note:
Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated.
Damn you Microsoft! Oh wait, I read that here.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
The distribution of Xboxes nets Microsoft a loss of money. If Microsoft requires only virgin systems to be used in their network then everyone who has a modded system who wishes to suscribe will have to buy another system. This will cause Microsoft to loose money as a result without any major effect to the consumers of dual systems since they already own a copy of all of their games (Microsoft's real source of money) and the purchase of a $200 dollar piece of hardware is a relatively sound investment. If Microsoft can be aware of losses in the tens of thousands of dollars then they will quickly reverse their stance on modding. Still, modding is a very good way of sticking it to them.
Metroid Prime just came out and Zelda is coming.
I own an X-Box and a smattering of PCs - one runs Windows XP/Linux the others Linux when they're not in various stages of disassembly/reassembly. My X-Box sits unmodded and unused. It was fun for a while. A PS2 is on the shopping list this X-Mas, mostly for Linux. It nice to have something for Free (as in Freedom) Play.
Someone hack it to run Windows 2000.
No kidding, either. Instead of a Linux install on the HDD...put a Windows install on it.
It is, after all, standard X86 hardware, with a different graphics processor, that's all.
I bet if someone did this, there would be zero complaints from MS about it.
How would they detect the presence of the chip remotely? I could think of several general ways, but I'm not familiar with XBOX mod chip workings.
-- Samir Gupta, Ph. D. Head, New Technology Research Group, Nintendo Co. Ltd., Kyoto, Japan.
Sorry, I forgot to include this in the last post:
S T& f=3&t=8120&s=768a7b43e28e94f91f2115949173d 5b3
G) The original post is about halfway down on this page:
http://www.xboxhacker.net/forums/index.php?act=
It's no different the iD banning pirated Quake 3 keys, DAoC banning people using cheat programs, or anything else. It is THEIR SERVICE, they get to choose what is acceptable or not. Your roof, your rules, as the old saying goes.
When you buy a physical good, it becomes yours. The company can't tell you what you are and are not allowed to do with it. You can take it apart, change it around, wahtever you want. You own it,so it's yours to play with.
However, a service is something where they allow you to use their stuff. That means they get to set the rules. If you break them, they can stop selling you the service. If you don't like their rules, you are perfectly free NOT to use their service.
It's just like your house, you can impose whatever rules you like on guests that come there. If they violate your rules, you are free to throw them out. They don't have any inherant right to do what they want in your house.
i just called xbox tech support about this and asked them what would happen if i tried to sign on with a mod chip
the guys was really cool about it, he said that it "may or may not" work after i signed up
he asked what it was for, i told him the xbox linux project...he tells me that he's done that to his own xbox and that it works great, but that he'd never tell his boss about it =]
I was just wonering if anyone knows for certain how Microsoft is id'ing these boxes. I only ask because it seems to me to be a simple thing for Microsoft to simply use a processor ID. The X-Box uses an Intel pentium chip and I know Intel used to, or still does, put an id number in their chips. Many bioses even allow you to choose if you want to enable the processor ID. It seems that this would be the best way for Microsoft to identify the suspect boxes as if it was software related then eventually Microsoft could assume that a hack would come out that would change the offending boxes ID. It seems to me that these are the only two ways Microsoft could be doing this besides perhaps a unique id in the bios but that would perhaps create production issues and again allow for "easy" reprogramming.
I agree with you but it surprises me that you (nor anybody else afaik) has mentioned the superior online strategy adopted by PS2 and GC.
They leave it to the individual game makers to provide the infrastructure and rules how to play. This is much better
If you get banned due to modding from Xbox Live you are hosed as far as internet gaming is concerned. Not so with the other consoles.
You can play US games on your Eur PS2 with minimal penalty risk as an example. Second you can decide to give your business to the game maker that mostly align themselves with your "View of the world" .
Help fight continental drift.
addressing Darth Vader: "the more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers"
The reason I bring this up is because game players loyalty is only so strong. Keep trying to steer them toward your revenue vice and they'll just walk away. Better to work with them, you may lose a little, but you gain so much more with a loyal following.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Microsoft has come out and said that mod-chips are used for piracy - ie. theft.
Therefore they're banning mod'd Xboxes.
But they also seem to be banning a number of people who *don't* have a mod'd Xbox.
Isn't that like calling these innocent people "thieves?"
Isn't that slander?
If anyone bought a Microsoft product in the last 5 years they should get what they deserve. WTF ? It's not like this company has a great consumer satisfaction history anyway...
wow, are you stupid.
did you ever take a civics class?
idiot
-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
Why the hell people can just buy the X boîte while there are others great game systems ? Hey get real ! It is a MS product here !
i agree that microsoft can do whatever they wish with their service.
:)
yet i keep reading a common theme here in this thread, "good it'll keep the cheaters off".
i've been investigating modding my xbox this past week, and i have to say, i haven't seen one single "cheat" implimented into any game yet. and i really don't think that's the point! i think i shall still mod my xbox for reasons like:
backing up games
giving my xbox ftp functionality
patching the dashboard so it will display it in progressive scan
playing homebrew games and software like mame, quake2 (port), etc.
so you say that i lose out on xbox live? we'll figure a way around it
R.I.P.
...it'd be interesting to see the people who like to mod chip make ANOTHER mod chip that makes it possible to use custom "Live" services. Perhaps an open-source multi-player server group for people who don't want to have their money taken from them by Microsoft if they say something Anti-MS or cuss on an X-Box Live server and get banned.
Besides, if only a certain number of really dedicated mod-chippers were to do it, I'd go buy an X-Box and mod it, too, because I'd finally play with people who care about games enough to have skill at 'em.
Only in slashdot are posts of solidarity modded at -1 Redundant, while posts of antagonism are modded as -1 Flamebait.
No, especially since they all paid for their version of "Devils Own"
Help fight continental drift.
Serviceable only by Microsoft Paid Subscription Support Personel.
It is a felony to break this sticker.
B00M!!!!
SUCK IT NIGGAZ!@#
XBox Live Admin... play XBox Live games all day long. But when you win and the loser swears at you, you get to ban them.
I'm gonna drop the "if you don't like it, use your money to vote" argument here, but in a different way... if you have a banned mod-ed xbox, then really make microsoft hurt and go buy another xbox... they lose $150, you're not going to buy the games for the additional xbox so they won't "make up the loss in game sales" and you get to use xbox live if you want to... if everybody who had a modded xbox did this, microsoft's gaming division would lose even more money...
So yeah, vote with your money!
-jag
http://starboard.flowtheory.net/
So when will see NEW mod chips that get around this hack.. or at least allow us to change the Serial Number to something else which will allow you to get around the ban ?? Why doenst M$ see that the everytime they come out with a new detection.. the users can just build a more stealhty chip.. and change the serial number... As time has shown these encryption systems always fail.
Well said.
no shit - censornazzzzzi michael is a true slow postin biaaatch
When will we start seeing worms and formating of harddrives on the Xbox. That is the next thing I am waiting for.
Mike
I didn't use the preview button, so get over it!!!!
Mike
yes and piss off all the people that want to legitimatly use their xbox? Not everyone cares that MS is evil and if something like that did happen don't you think that it'd be reported and MS could just lift the ban? Not to mention that I'd be supprised if 40K people get into xbox live. MS is going to know how many kits are out there. They'd be able to tell that its someone with too much time on their hands trying to make a political statement by hurting those people that want to use their product.
11 was a racehorse
12 was 12
1111 Race
12112
BTW, Metroid Prime came out today, Game of the Year.
I have a modified XBox. It's great for things like streaming movies to the TV. I was on the Live beta and got caught in the first ban on Nov. 12th playing legit games. I figured it was coming... Anyone with sense saw it coming...
I just bought a second XBox to play on Live and it's well worth it. I'm glad I won't be messing with cheaters. I'm sure chipped boxes will eventually get on, but most likely they'll be with the chips disabled. I suggest anyone that has a modified XBox be VERY careful. It's easy to target modified HDs.
For those bitching that they spent $50 and can't use it, read the EULA. It says plainly that you can't use a modified XBox on the service. Once it is modified they say it will NOT be considered normal if you remove it. Too bad. My only complaint is I wish MS would have come out right off and said "Yes, we banned modchips." or at least had the XBox give a better error than "XBox Live Not Found.". That just makes it look like a connection problem.... It ends up causing their support too many issues.
Next up bannings for using foul language on Xbox live service?? Be careful what you say.. you may be playing with an Xbox Live admin...
Microsoft will soon announce that they've signed up Jerry Falwell as moderator for Xbox Live.
Prepare yourself for a life in eternal hell if you use foul language on Xbox Live, son!
When is someone going to figure out how get a program that loops through a ton of IDs and get them banned on purpose. I don't know if they use encryption but if they didn't it wouldn't be hard to sniff the network and figure that out.
If it is possiable I think it would be funny. MS doesn't seem to think of these things.
Atto
I didn't use the preview button, so get over it!!!!
Mike
And in other news today... Microsoft shows 85% profit margins for Windows... no wonder Bill has a lot of cash in the bank...
So I buy an Xbox, have it connect through a sniffing proxy (a linux box with a modem and a serial nullmodem connection). Then I mod it, do the same. At this point, I should be able to start spoofing Xboxen, with fake or even strategically chosen GUIDs. That asshole that beat me at Q3 3 times last sunday? He better hope his GUID isn't available to me through my proxy.
You probably need to supply an account username/password to log into the service, which means logging on with multiple GUIDs from the same account can easily be detected. If that's the case, you can only do what you propose for $50 a GUID.
I'm not sure about the specifics, but one of the things that really really sucked about SEGA's Phantasy Star Online was that you could only play your saved game on the console you started it on.
OK, serious question here. Now, I realize this might not even be an issue considering that the service currenty has to be purchased for a year in advance.
But, when it does become month-to-month for whatever fee they decide upon, what happens to the billing of said account once it's banned for trying to be used with a modded Xbox?
Does billing cease at that time? Or will M$ continue to charge the credit card of the user for a service he/she cannot use? And, what are the legal ramifications if that happens?
This sounds like something Apple would do: limit your customer base before you have gained a critical mass.
If this device fails to function, buy a new one.
...if the terms of service say "drop your pants, spread your ass cheeks and grease up", you'd defend it.
My knee would hurt if it jerked that hard, doesn't yours?
uh, or, *don't* buy the xbox, and watch them lose $350 as that xbox rots on a warehouse shelf. :P
seriously, people. they don't "lose" if you buy like two xboxes instead of one.
*sigh*
-fren
"Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket?"
I do think it is a good idea to keep cheaters off of servers, but it's an entirely different thing to ban people who've payed for the console, game, service, and equipment because of a mod chip. I haven't seen anyone argue that the EULA says "If you have modded your x-box, it is M$'s right to let you use the service or not", which may very well be hidden in a "Microsoft may boot you for any reason, at any time, etc etc etc." If microsoft really wanted to give their customers what they paid for, they'd add an option to block modded x-boxes from joining a server someone is running or creat modded-box only servers that run x-box server side stuff only. Then again, microsoft probably doesn't want people hacking in (which I am sure will happen anyway), so there is some logic to the arguement. In a buisness sense, it is a good move, but to the public it's a rather bad one. If they give full, $ for $ refunds to people who get banned becuase of this, then they are fair, but otherwise let M$ burn in hell for all eternity. And I knew crap like this would pop up, thats why I didn't want to spend my cash on an x-box. Instead, I built myself a machine: one that will soon be rid of win2k and be running suse 8.x or better. Actually, while we're on the linux vs windows crap... MS debates that Linux will cost more overhead, but frankly, when a system goes tipsup and has palladium, won't it take some time and moolah for the tech to reinstall programs, somehow get the users data back, etc? And won't that be paid time?
Candy-Coated Knowledge
My tongue would hurt if I said "DUH" as loud and long as you.
Chipping a video game has nothing to do with copyright.
But I suppose your tongue lacerated your brain at some point and now you're unable to differentiate between shit and shinola.
So, what's the use of pointing out something to someone like yourself? None. I just think someday you'll laugh at yourself for being such an ass.
I must say ....
I never thought I'd see the day where people would side with Microsoft on an issue.
Just goes to show that, to Slashdotters, Microsoft-bashing comes second to a quality gaming experience.
[ Evil Empire: 1 ] - [ Open Source: 5,324,358 ]
-- Askari: Give JavaScript the bird.
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but what if this was say, aoltimewarnercnn-multi-whatever, and they banned users off their network if they were found to be running linux? and used the excuse "All of our complaints and legal inquiries involving hacking and spam ended up resolving to end users that ran linux, so we've made this proactive step to ensure a secure online enviroment for our customers."
Total BS, but what can an end user do about it? Ask for a refund? "Sorry , TOS violation, suck it."
Its not all that far-fetched....
This modchip issue has been quite the 'problem' lately in the Xbox 'scene'. I, like many others, have a modchip in my Xbox, and also have Xbox Live! Now, how is this possible?
It's actually a matter of simply installing a switch. When I'm using Xbox Live!, I simply use the switch to disable my Enigmah modchip (use a DPDT switch for wires 15 and 21). That turns off the modchip, and there's no conceivable way that Microsoft can detect the presence of the chip because the voltage going to the chip is simply shut-off.
If a person wants to use their modded Xbox, do not go on Xbox Live! What this means is that one should disconnect the network cable going to their Xbox when the chip is enabled, and presto.
So that's how to by-pass Microsoft's pseudo-detection. The overarching issue, however, is if Microsoft has a right to 'ban' modchip users from the Xbox Live! service. Arguably, they do because their is always the possibility of users downloading 'hacks' and 'cheats' for Xbox Live! enabled games. This would obviously be 'unfair' to other legitimate users, as well as Microsoft. And obviously, they have a right to protect their service.
Perhaps someone may argue that the modchip detection deters piracy. Maybe, but the amount of people who have the technical skills to install a modchip are arguably a negligible amount. In my case, soldering ~ 30 wires for my chip was a huge hassle. I doubt any of my friends and collegues could have done so. Nor would they even bother. How many people really want to run Linux on their Xbox just because it can be done?
In the end, if a person has the 'smarts' to install a modchip (even if it is the no-solder Matrix/Xodus chip), they should also have the intelligence to forsee that using such a chip has obvious consequences.
"screwed with some important protocol or something that causes their server to crash"
You don't have to worry about being labelled a "geek". In fact, you don't have to worry your pretty little head about this "technology" junk that seems to be very scary to you.
"important protocol or something". LOL!
The real issue isn't whether or not microsoft has the right to ban you from their service, it's whether or not they have the right to check MY xbox for ANYTHING, mod chip, bubble gum stuck to the circuit boards, porn pics taped to the side. Doesn't matter, get the hell out of MY xbox. I don't care if M$ or crayola manufacturered it. NOBODY has the right to examine anything of mine without my verbal, written, and notorized + recorded permission. I didn't give that to microsoft, so they better not be checking my xbox for anything, mod chip or otherwise. (as for morallity, it's not the subject of discussion, I don't care if microsoft is right or wrong to not want mod chippers on their network, I didn't give them permission to check for the chip. As far as I'm concerned this is on par with breaking and entering my home and it's about damn time society stopped looking upon it as a lesser thing).
I personally think that banning the mod chips from the network is a good thing. Now the next step is to ban gamesharks and similar from it.
you won't be able to program your microwave incorrectly without being arrested.
Yea.
----------------------
. SLASHDOT: Home of the vicious nerd.
Don't you want to grow up to be just like Noone?
Noone seriously runs linux on an xbox.
What did this Noone fellow think about how Mandrake runs on his Xbox console? Does he also run homebrew games on his GBA?
Noone legitimately backs up their software.
So do I. When I download free(beer) software or video clips from the Internet, I put it in a folder to be burned to a durable CD-R next time I get 600 MB or so worth of stuff.
Noone uses the iso images they leech off their friendly neighbourhood Gene6 ftp server to 'evaluate' before making a purchase.
The next console title I plan to buy is "Balloon Kid" for Game Boy, because I liked it on the emulator. I have recommended that a university buy copies of Syntrillium's Cool Edit for my senior project team after having tried the waveform editor's demo, because I liked the graphical interface for signal processing, and recreating the same thing in Matlab would be a chore.
I find myself to resemble this (fictional?) Noone quite closely.
Modchips are so you don't have to pay for the games.
Perhaps, but they have the same substantial non-infringing use as console emulators: letting anybody with a PC and a console write and run homebrew software for the console.
A game being 60$ one week, 30 the next, then 20, then eventually 10. It's crap. I refuse to pay an unreasonable price for a game. So I pirate them
Or just rent it for $5 or so at Blockbuster. If it's a PC title (which can't be rented in the USA due to 17 usc 109(b)(1)), just wait until (as you pointed out) the title hits the $10 bargain bin.
Will I retire or break 10K?
if you're doing that then you're not going to be using Xbox live very much.
It doesn't matter whether or not I use a mod chip on an Xbox because I don't subscribe to Xbox Live. I don't subscribe to Xbox Live because Microsoft doesn't want me. Microsoft doesn't want me because I'm on dial-up.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I thought that was Apple's motto.
Just devise a method to falsify the unique hardware ID when logging on, and automatically sequence through a large block of IDs. They will all be banned eventually and MS will have to remove the ban to allow normal user access.
Honestly, banning modded users is not a bad idea. What if Joe Blow (or John Doe or God or some other fictional person) mods their box and then makes a slightly modified game DVD-ROM that, say, gives him the ability to whomp on anyone. Also, this helps prevent truly malicious code. Guess what? With online play comes a whole new slew of problems, and this solves half of them.
is the fact that yes this is a testing ground for Microsoft's "Palladium" and Hardware DRM solutions. . .Jesus this scares the crap out of me. . .Why not just put a GPS tracker under my skin and a permanently imprint a barcode on my forehead. . . So much for online ambiguity. . .so much for the "free and anonymous" internet. Yeah free and anonymous to everyone but Microsoft and their "approved" hardware vendors. . . ." who will know more about you than the CIA and the FBI could EVER dig up.
.
Where in the F#$K is the DOJ at when you need them protecting us from crap like this ? Screw the monopoly crap. Microsoft is on the verge of violating my basic civil rights with this technology.
Our digital civil liberties will be dead by 2005 at this rate. . . .
Maybe we should rename Microsoft to "Big Brother" . . . .
Guess you've never even used an Apple then, you ignorant ass.
I'm actually gonna stick it on ebay - bundled w/my games and extras. Figure WFT, might as well fund my foray into PS2.
This type of behaviour is directly related to their monopoly status. Microsoft is able to deny the owners of modded hardware the "privilege" of paying them money to use their service. This can be compared to the way in which they sustain substantial losses in all of their ventures except Windows and Office.
A normal competitor would just "look the other way" and take the money. Let's pretend that Electronic Arts launched a console system comparable to the Xbox called the "Ebox". Like Microsoft, EA accepted a loss on each system sale in hopes of gaining the cash back in software sells. EA's flagship game at launch was "UO: Generations". However, alot of people around the world didn't like EA's business practices, started a movement, and ended up modding their systems to run Red Hat. After all of that, however, these people then signed up for the "Ebox Live!" service so that they could play their favorate MMORPG on their Ebox. Would EA refuse the cash from these customers? Hell no, because they could not afford too.
This is silly and immature.
If you play EQ and use a hack like ShowEQ and they find out about it. Guess what? You're banned. No refund, banned. Even though it is a service that you paid for and you are just running programs on your own computer, all the other things you are griping out. So come on folks, get off of MS for once EVERY online game service has this provision. You play the game on the service fairly or you are banned, end of story.
Read the very last sentence. Then read the rest.
> BRIAN A. LaMACCHIA
> Software Architect
> Windows Trusted Platforms Technologies Group
> Microsoft
>
>
> THE MICROSOFT "PALLADIUM" INITIATIVE
>
>
>Abstract
>--------
>This talk will present a technical overview of the Microsoft
>"Palladium" Initiative. The "Palladium" code name refers to a core set
>of hardware and software security components currently under
>development for a future version of the Windows operating system.
>"Palladium" adds four categories of security services to today's PCs:
>
> a. Curtained memory. The ability to wall off and hide pages
> of main memory so that each "Palladium" application can be
> assured that it is not modified or observed by any other
> application or even the operating system.
>
> b. Attestation. The ability for a piece of code to digitally
> sign or otherwise attest to a piece of data and further
> assure the signature recipient that the data was constructed
> by an unforgeable, cryptographically identified software stack.
>
> c. Sealed storage. The ability to securely store information so
> that a "Palladium" application or module can mandate that the
> information be accessible only to itself or to a set of other
> trusted components that can be identified in a
> cryptographically secure manner.
>
> d. Secure input and output. A secure path from the keyboard
> and mouse to "Palladium" applications, and a secure path
> from "Palladium" applications to an identifiable region of
> the screen.
>
>Together, these features provide a parallel execution environment to
>the "traditional" kernel- and user-mode stacks. The goal of "Palladium"
>is to help protect software from software; that is, to provide a set of
>features and services that a software application can use to defend
>against malicious software also running on the machine (viruses running
>in the main operating system, keyboard sniffers, frame grabbers, etc).
>"Palladium" is not designed to provide defenses against hardware-based
>attacks that originate from someone in control of the local machine.
Why can't you people do something else, eh? Does every little thing have to be taken apart and fucked with to be useful? Don't get me wrong, I like to tinker as much as the next guy, but really, this isn't news. IF YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING, DON'T BUY IT!
Do you think the expense of setting up all the infrastructure gives Microsoft any right at all to police what they've built? I sure as hell secure all my networks, why wouldn't they?
Um, I for one don't want to hear some 13 year old yelling obscenities and other profane stuff into the headset. I don't pay money for that crap. MS should be banned every little punk whoever types or yells an obscenity at another player, especially if the room is for young folk. I fully support banning for inappropriate behaviour.
Buy a new XBox at any retail store (where they don't check the inside), swap your baned XBox with the new one (if you are really hardcore, switch the insides to preserve serial numbers on the outside). Return the XBox. Viola! You now have a vanilla XBox and ready for crappy gaming.
Think about it. Do you really want someone who is able to run unsigned code on XBox Live? I sure as hell don't. I don't want to play MechAssault only to find someone has a program that runs on his modded XBox that lets him never overheat. Banning people with modded XBoxes prevents that. If a few innocent people have to suffer because of it, so be it.
I swear I saw an earlier Slashdot article with that statement.
I can understand if it were free, but since people are paying, they are paying to be mod'ed (as in moderator).
I know M$ is against piracy, but they are also trying to build a customer base. If Sony did the same thing it wouldn't hurt as bad. But this is another reason why I'll be staying away from the big bully trying to get a piece of the marketshare by dollars instead of ingenuity.
No, but if the manufacturer refused to service the car because someone put a mod-chip in the onboard computer to get more HP out of it, and put it back to normal before they sold it to me. I would be pissed off at the manufacturer because there is nothing wrong with the car. If the chip was still in the car when I took it in for service, then that would be a different story.
1) People modding their boxes knew they were in violation of the EULA. If they didn't, then they got to be the dumbest gamers I know.
2) People buying modded boxes cannot blame M$. If you bought an used Porsche and it turns out that the previous owner switched engines, Porsche can't be held responsible.
Damn sometimes the people on this board complain too much.
...but good for microsoft.
;-P
I have a modded PS2, and an imported (japanese) GameCube. I had planned on purchasing an Xbox sometime soon and modding it. This puts a damper on my plans, looks like I'll have to import an Xbox to play my import titles, but it is worth it if it means a level playing field.
Microsoft has every right to say that modded xboxes will be banned from thier network, and even a good reason if it really will keep everything fair. For those of you who can't live without a modchip, buy a dual bios chip and just turn it off if you want to play online (because of course your not a cheating lamer with no real skills).
There are really only 3 type of people who are complaing.
Those who were banned because they had a modded xbox and no warning--this is wrong, I do think MS should give you one warning at least.
Cheaters who are pissed that they will have to have some real skills now--they need to get the fsck over it
And people who refuse to admit that Microsoft can have a good idea--to them I say c'mon, the laws of probability state that this had to happen at least once, just watch out, in the next 50 years or so they might even have a second good idea
This is totally off-topic, but just FYI, Leia is talking to Grand Moff Tarkin, not Darth Vader.
Interestingly enough, if you want A New Hope over again, Darth Vader seems more like a bullyboy for Tarkin than the #2 guy in the Empire...
Jay
If you don't like the way Microsoft handles it, don't buy their products. The only reason MS is even selling XBox's and games is because you imbisiles buy them! If these types of actions piss you off, then why would you support MS by buying thier game system?
As much fun as I know you would all have, an unregulated XBox in such an environent is akin to dropping a pirahana into a salmon farm. The point of Live is that it's a level playing field. A closed circuit. My box isn't souped up and neither is yours. I don't have to worry about you having some script that'll ping my connection to death, auto-aim for you or whatever because you're running Linux behind the scenes. I didn't say you would do that, but we both know there are plenty of assholes that would like nothing better than to gut Microsoft's gaming network from the inside. "Look ma! I'm 133t!". You may even be legitimately using your mod to increase hard drive space or store stuff other than the MS sanctioned material. Which is fine. But their's a trade off you're going to have to decide on. In fact, I'm betting that if you were smart enough to mod your XBox, you were smart enough to see this very real possiblity on the horizon and now you actually have the nerve to bitch about it. I can't count how many times I posted here to that effect either. there are simply too many tricks MS can pull with this quasi-computer of theirs.
So does Mullet feel sorry for you because you thought you were sticking it to the man by getting a $300 (now $200) machine with an advanced graphics card, only to find out one of it's key features has been disabled in modding it? Fuck. No.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
"Even if you remove the mod chip, he said, your machine cannot be unbanned, as it's Microsoft's belief that it can never be seen as trustworthy again."
In other news, reform of character is impossible, so MS may as well throw out their whole Palladium/Trustworthy Computing idea since we all remember Windows 98...
Are there any plans in the works to create game play networks outside of the MS funded network? Would it even be possible to get your Xbox to work on these alternate networks without modding them?
It would seem to me that the best solution for this problem is for the modded crowd to design their own networks for gameplay. It's been a long time since I've been into online game play (half-life CTF), but even our small servers were listed on websites to attract other players.
We live in a technology world. There is nothing we can't do. Instead of getting mad at MS for enforcing their rules, lets create our own.
that said, i hate game hackers even more. there is nothing that spoils an online game like hacks. i'm a starcraft diehard. everytime someone uses a hack, the game slows to a crawl, someone drops, and the game is lame.
anyway, who really thought the same people that make IIS and Outlook Virus spreader could make an online service that doesn't have bugs for regular users on the first shot???
i'm gettin a PS2 anyway.
"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." - Rahm Emanuel
The comparison to "foul language" is inherently broken. I'm fairly sure a really good lawyer with a large chunk of cash might be able to make the case that foul language on online services harm the product, but that's also broken and not really the issue.. Not yet, anyway.
Banning machines that can be uniquely identified as having been modified to accept copied games however is a measure of limiting the use of such alterations. Sure, you can argue that you just modded your X-box to play those DVD-R X-Box game backups you had to make because you can't be arsed to send broken DVDs off to the publisher for a free replacement for some reason. Fair use and all, I know, I know.
But we (game business employees) really aren't looking to punish you, and you really could send that cracked DVD to us and we'd have something to beat over the head of those lousy disc manufacturers and yes in most cases we do have a free replacement return policy, many of us would even pay your stamps. We consider that fair, because that means modding your console and making backups is not the only way of safeguarding your investment in our game.. that very same process which can let people play our games without paying for them. Naturally we want to make that practice less useful.
I have a certain understanding for people who want to play games they cannot afford, or before they pay money for them. Millions are even upstanding enough to actually pay for a game when they can afford it, if we made a really good game for them.. heck, I even understand the people who want to play free games all their life, but I can't really let that go on if I want to keep collecting a paycheck.
So I'm sorry you can't play your copied games at home online with X-box Live, but I hope you see that we're not out to get the ones who've done nothing wrong.
If there is a better way, please help us find it.
/ Per
I never thought I'd be stepping up to defend the big M but I think that you're missing the point. 1. I like the xbox live, it keeps me sane when I need to play games instead of smashing my client's head open in frustration. Games with modded xboxs will give rise to cheating and then live will cease to be a fun place to play. 2. It's not like Microsoft is using questionable business tactics here, they're protecting their investment on an enterprise that is currently operating at a loss. Why would any company just turn a blind eye to theft? You wouldn't stay in business very long. 3. If you want to mod your xbox, that is, alter something that was designed to be a closed system, then go ahead. But please don't expect the world to bow down because you think it's your god given right to steal from game developers. Besides, if you're that into gaming, buy another xbox for online play. Of course, if you do buy an "straight" xbox then I guess you'll have to actually start supporting the developers who make those games afterall. Wow, let me shed a tear for the poor little kid living in his parent's basement. In conclusion, Video Games are not a right. If you want to better the world and reduce monopolies, go use Linux and quit bitching about capitalism. Regards, A REALLY TICKED OF GAMER....
Happiness is a slider variable
Xbox Live uses a 'warning system' where users can submit feedback on an abusive user (or good) with prepared comments like "Poor gameplay," "Harassing/Lewdness," "Good attitude," "Great session." After enough (and it takes quite a bit) complaints, your voice usage is banned for a month or so. When it returns and you continue, you will be be banned from the entire system for a month or so. After that, your account may be permanently bad. But believe me--no one's going to be banned for bad language.
Just a couple things I'd like to know about this situation which is quite humerous to me, at least.
1. A modded X-Box will probably eventually start generating "Unique" IDs of their own, possibly each start up or every time you tell it to. How long it'll take to actually do this is questionable, but the whole mod chip running things sort of points out that this whole setup won't work unless you start banning more than specific UIDs.
2. All the remarks about cheating, see #1. While anti-cheat tools make it harder to cheat by forcing you to appear that you're not cheating, at some point the connection to the physical box is just data and any data can technically be manipulated. Whether or not it'll be done in a reasonable amount of time might, however, might make it unreasonable for most people so at least in that they've served that purpose, but it doesn't fix #1 since the same people who spent all the effort to mod their X-box in the first place have a pretty large incentive to mod again their x-box to void the whole setup scheme (read PS1 mod chips, mod chip detectors, and future generations of stealth mod chips).
3. Banning people for modding their systems is bogus. Read #2. Those who are motivated enough can, if given sufficient time, cheat. This is true with or without mod chips. Encryption, hashing, etc are what is meant to protect the X-Box in the first place from inserting "invalid" code. Mod chips might be able to let you run arbitrary programs, but unless MS and co. are complete morons, they're encrypting all traffic to/from each X-Box system to avoid sniffing. You still can't debug an X-Box very easily and while you might be able to run arbitrary programs, you still need to use the system keys to run the games involved. So, if that's given you're back to doing physical tapping to attempt to read the unencrypted code at some step.. Or you could always try to brute force check all the encrypted output. In any case, all this amounts to is a very small and arbitrary additional barrier to #2. So, modding a system is more about a "we don't like mods" than any nature of true protection for gamers or their network at large. After all, an X-Box is just a computational device so it's not like using it to run arbitrary programs makes it any more of a threat than any other equally fast/bandwidth capable device. And the data coming in is still just data so it can always be sniffed. UIDs just make it harder but that won't stop people, just will slow them down.
So, all this rant amounts to is apparently a vain attempt to slow down the modding of systems in the hopes it'll actually prevent modders from getting on the network. Good luck with that, MS. Hope that works out well. If you've written a secure enough system with encryption and signings at every turn, you may make the system so unreasonable to break that no one but a tiny few will bother attempting to break your system for their own needs. If not, you're back to square one.
Good thing that some companies still make game consoles.
Sorry, but I have karma to burn and had to say it.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
Well, it would sure influence my decision to purchase an X-Box, knowing that MS might decide to cut me off if I modify it.
I think I'll pass. Thanks anyway MS. I'll go with a PS2 or just good Ol' PC games instead.
"Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence." - Charles de Gaulle
Suppose M$ one day feels the need for more revenue and those pesky customers are just not buying new stuff like they used to.
What's to stop M$ using the box ids to disable network connectivity until the victim^H^H^H^H^H^Hcustomer upgrades to the latest software release?
I have a modded XBox with the developer bios instead. It works great. I can use the XDK on my PC for developing and even use visual studio as a remote debugger.
People with refurbished xbox's are getting banned(me)
And some people with unmodded Xbox's are getting banned too....(me too)
But for some reason my modded xbox had no problem...havent tried it since sunday though...xbconnect and gamespy are so much better then xbox live.
Oh and people are playing copied games on Xbox Live, this is where MS looses their money...they should check for Active modchips, and burned games and just deny them then, not ban them forever...
Well, ...
it might be only a question of time when some bad guy connects to xbox live with a mod chip but a fake serial number. That way a lot of "good" xbox users could be excluded
Good god, how did this get moderated insightful when it's blatent flamebait?
From the article, it seems when you connect to XBL, sofwtare is downloaded which checks to see if you have a mod chip. If it finds one on, then you are banned forever. But why can't it just ban you for that session, so that if you connect with the modchip turned off, or even decide to remove the modchip permanantly, ytou can get back on. MS's claim is that they just want to amkea fair service. This would make a fair service - nobdoy with an active mod chip can log in therefore no cheating. From the permanent ban status, it seems this is just a front for trying to kill modded xboses totally...
----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
The XBox runs VMS? Bloody hell, but I suppose it beats Windows CE.
Just imagine! When you're playing a game on XBox Live, they're checking the internal state of your Xbox to see if you've just pressed one of the trigger buttons! Bastards!
Damn them! DAMN THEM ALL!!111!
that lets xbox users cheat? i mean how prevalent is this for xbox users (or ps2, gcn, etc.)? i haven't even heard of such a thing (most modchips just allow nongame code and nonregion games or movies to run), however i don't doubt their existance or probability in the future though...
Large print giveth, and the small print taketh away
The next step of course will be for Microsoft to close the PC as well. Have you not spelled the Palladium coffee? You won't be able to compute or communicate without permission from Redmond. Nice huh?
Say an XBox hacker was trying to find a way to use their modded-XBox on the live service. The first time they tried it their XBox was banned. Next they have writen something to fool the detection by replacing the detection software with something that sends out a hardware id not for their XBox but Randomly generated/whatever} but their hack is still not good enough and the random XBox is banned. That hardware id belongs to a legit unmodded XBox who has just been banned.
... what about the script kiddy that writes something to connect to the server and loop around every single hardware id getting everybody banned.
That was the accidental way
Next thing you know, /. will ban IP addresses it deems "flamebait".
Careful, you could be replying to a /. moderator!
Damn them!
the thing about this that gets on my tits is that the unique id is used to permanently ban the modded box. now, alright, fair enough, dont let modded boxes on, cheaters, really annoying, etc, but why not simply deny access to the service from a modded box, ideally with a "sorry not allowed on with your modded box, please turn off mod and try again", why the permanent exclusion?
this sig steers like a cow. and i can prove it
Is it possible to change the XBox's unique ID?
If so, wouldn't it be fun to mod an XBox and change its ID every time and see how many IDs you can get on the ban list?
Evil.... but fun.
...I can tell you that the average consumer isn't going to have any problems with this. Most of these folks don't even know what a mod chip is, and wouldn't install one if they did. Most folks are basically honest, and they just get even more honest if you inform them that they won't be able to play online if they install a mod chip. Furthermore, I would be willing to bet that the "average consumer" will actually be in support of it. I'm constantly hearing people complain about the rampant cheating in various game communities. If Microsoft takes an active role in banning those who abuse their services & hardware it'll be seen as a step towards eliminating cheaters.
The folks who do care about mod chips usually fall into two categories - collectors and pirates. The pirates want mod chips so they can play all their games without having to pay for them...and honestly, I can't think they'd be terribly surprised by getting banned. The collectors usually want mod chips so they can import games that aren't available here in the US...but that really isn't a problem (yet) with the Xbox. Sure, there are also some other folks who mod their Xboxes...tinkers and developers and such...but again, I don't think they'd be very surprised to get banned.
yrs,
Ephemeriis
"Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
If it's in the Bios or HD then is can be already be replaced/faked - I've undoubtedly trashed both of mine if it is anyway with OpenBios and new HD. MAC address? If it's the MAC then this could be spoofed or simply plug your Xbox in via a router - and many of these let you alter their MAC addresses manually. If MS do start banning people then the banned (who are undoubtedly the more resourceful section of the XBox community) will start fiddling. What's going to happen if they spoof their machine as somebody elses unmodded one - will MS ban the machine that the modded machine was spoofing as? It'll be a consumer nightmare if little Johnny's XBox suddenly decides to lock him out for as far as he can see, 'no reason'.
A much better solution in my eyes would be to include CRC checking on the ROM being executed. When you try to connect a game to the network it is quizzed by the server and if it's unable to verify that it's the original code it'll boot the user.
...Gates' wounded ego.
"Cheating" is pretty much bullshit -- if they cared they would demand games to be more cheating-proof. It's not that difficult to limit information sent to clients so "transparent walls" will show empty rooms, and messing with updated data will be pointless because server recalculates it. In any case invisible chips or proxy hacks are likely to appear. Microsoft only loses money on this -- users that can't use service aren't going to pay for it, and likely to make their networks -- and thanks to Microsoft's assholeness those networks will have to allow ONLY modded boxes because it's easier to make PC game run on a modded box than to reproduce Microsoft's protocol. That will leave Microsoft with their loss of $150-$200 as the final result of the sale.
So in the end it's the same thing as with Netscape -- Microsoft directs its attacks against people that enrage Gates (how dared they mod the Xbox to run the archrival system!!!), as opposed to doing something that actually profits the company. Judging for their numbers, only Windows and Office actually bring them money, everything else may look like a "strategic development" but now it seems more like a playground where two freaks at the top of the company exercise various ways of spitting into their customers' faces.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
With a modded XBox it may be possible for you to modify a game and play it online with a super charactor. or in other words cheat. and I am willing to bet the security on XBox live is weak at best without the getting that key. There is nothing that makes playing online games more fustration when people hack their software so they have super stats and kill all the honest players who are playing with all the balance code built in. Then when you get a bunch of cheaters most of the honest people will just stop playing the game and not use XBox Live. I am willing to bet sometimes when they try to do something that we think has pure evil porposes it may be to help their other users. But I still think if they stopped making Crappy Software and price them fairly then they dont need to worry about all this extra protection.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Actually, I use an Apple all day long at work. But apparently you didn't get the joke.
After a long session of packet monitoring, etc here is what MS is doing. They are simply running code to do a bios crc check. If it doesn't come back as one of the released bios version the key is banned. The reason some legit boxes may be getting banned in the process is that the crc process can get corrupted by any number of hardware problems, power surges, etc.
How to get around it ? Easy. Work is already underway to allow mod consoles to install a modified live xbe (the xbox version of exe) that will return any crc the system expects.
MS is showing there usual incompetence here. The game packets do not even appear to be encrypted one you break through the MS encryption of the live system. Its not even 128bit, its 40 bit.
MS is putting too much trust in the live service to guarantee the data and not the independent games themselves. The result is that so far most of the games have little to no cheat protection themselves.
Also in the works is a server replacement for live. It will enable playing of live enabled games without having to purchase a single item, not even the xbox live kit. This I think is the best method to allow people to do what they please with the console they paid for, while still allowing those who want to use the MS service without fear of cheaters.
That said. If you think Live will never have cheaters you are wrong. They have too much time on there hands, and the system is pathetically unsecure.
I'm not anti-mod either, but I'm against the POTENTIAL for cheaters. XBoxes are cheap. If you want to mod one, get another. I was thinking about doing that. One for gaming, and one for Linux. Mike
Actually you most closely resemble the snivelling whiners mentioned in the parent post. The only reference you failed to quote, because you probably realized this.
Slashdot cliche number 4: the pirate who says "but I help the industry!"
I can understand the frustration of being mad about paying for a service that you can't use. But when you put the mod chip into the system you knew what you were doing. So when you got to use their service and they ban you, you really have no room to complain. You are stealing from them and they get to keep your $50 for signing up for the service then using it with a moded Xbox. You already have cost them much more in revenue by not having to pay for the games you play. I have my fair share of stuff I didn't pay for, but I don't get mad either when a company out-thinks me.
Some of you may already know of this, but I thought I'd point out that Microsoft's new game "Age of Mythology" replaces curse words in the game chat feature with #%!#@! characters. The game is ok and when I saw this feature, I was disappointed. What other games have been doing this (and have not had an option to turn it off)?
XYZ Automotive Co. makes cars with a limiter that does not allow the car to travel over 40 mph. So, they are limiting the owner's legal legitimate uses of the product. The owner tinkers with the limiter to disable it, and now the warranty is void and XYZ refuses to work on the vehicle or repair it.
This is why the dreamcast rocks, you can play cdr games without a modchip!
Banning moded XBox from the service makes perfect sense to me.
You have to consider the XBox live service like any sporting event.
There has to be clear rules about what is allowed and what is not.
In Formula 1, if the car doesn't meet the precise regulated specs before a race, it's out.
In athletism, if you're dopping, you're out.
Same in any kind of sports or contest.
Msft made great efforts to make sure they offer something unique (one loggin, global rankings...) With cheating XBL will be ruined instantly.
I'm all for modding and hacking a machine that you own, but when it comes to online competition, the systems have to be as standard as possible (that's one reason why Msft decided not to ship the xbox with a dialup modem but only a broadband card, to even out the experience for all players).
If you want to mod and play online, get 2 XBox.. big deal...
This might be a good thing. Has anyone played on Battle.Net recently? The strength and vocalness of people's anger and rudeness absolutely astounds me.
The people are what have prevented me from allowing my son to play on it.
Don't forget that the XBox has a HD as well.
With XBL, there is a clear risk that someday, some idiot is gonna find a way to host a modded game server and using the online download feature to propagate some virus that's gonna wipeout other XBoxes' HD.
Makes even happier that I bought a PS2... Wonder how long it will be before those banned modded boxes form their own Anti-MS domain. A Domain in which you are banned if you don't have a modded box... wouldn't that be some nice irony, until the lawyers started knocking. I would like to see an OpenSource game console developed by the GNU community running a Unix OS, and complete source on the web.. That would kick ass...
In the Xbox TOS they have Section 7 which is dedicated to stopping modded Xbox's:
SERVICE OPERATION AND EQUIPMENT
Xbox Live may only be accessed with an unmodified, except for Microsoft authorized repairs and upgrades, Xbox video game console. Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, modify, further sublicense, distribute or use for other purposes either the hardware or software of this system, is strictly prohibited and may result in termination of your account and/or your ability to access Xbox Live via your Xbox, and the pursuit of other legal remedies by Microsoft.
Microsoft's message oard is actually usenet. microsoft.public.xbox*
If they are doing it to stop cheaters, then it's fine with me, actually I encourage it!!! Look at what cheating has done to the online gaming community. I play Unreal Tournament and Quake3 on my computer. I like to play them online. The latest point release for Quake3 added punkbuster support. That has essentially killed the game for me. I have been so frustrated trying to connect to servers only to be denied because of something punkbuster related (believe me when I tell you that I don't cheat, not do I know how to cheat in these games). I have also heard that Punkbuster adds tons of lag to the games when it does work. I have not been able to play Urban Terror (a mod for Quake3) yet. It really pisses me off because all of this is due to a bunch of a-holes that have to cheat at these games. Ban away microsoft. I hope I never get smoked by an OGC bot in Mechassault or a Wallhack in Unreal Championship.
The XBOX is a machine, and like all other machines it is not perfect. So if people have a desire to modify their machine(whatever it is) the manufacturer obviously did not manufacture a good enough product for everyones needs. The XBOX is a computer, computers are and should be made to be custimized to a users needs. Microsoft just needs to get a grip.
The xBox is a piece of crap PC-in-Console's-Clothing. Don't buy them... at all, modded or not. If you wanna run something other than crappy xBox games, you should have bought a real PC.
So you wont be troubled by MS sucksss ;-)
Yes, there is software available to tunnel Xbox system link traffic across the public internet. With this system, the XBoxes think they're playing system link when in actual fact they're playing over the internet. (Think VPN and you'll get the idea).
However, this raises some issues, mainly:
...just as people said before, switch it off, make sure its always off unless you want to play your "backup copies" of your games, or play QUANTUM in the MAME emulator. MS has the right to ban whomever they want on their service, and if people want to play still on the Xboxlive, they'll go out and buy another xbox once its down to $149 and MS will lose another $150. Oh well, life goes on. Mousetrap/mouse/better mousetrap/etc...
Relive the BBS Past - One Byte at a Time! www.ssabbs.com
is stupid, not banning hacked x-boxes.
Give me a fucking break, give me the email addresses of 2 people who legitmately want to hack their xboxes to run tux-racer and not because they want pirate games.
OK, so you want to use live, but have a modded xbox? If you've got a mod with a disable switch, no problem. Turn it off. Live should work fine...
I got my mod chip to allow me the possibility of running alternative software, such as media player stuff, and to copy the games I own to the hard drive for faster load times, and also to play my region2 DVD and hopefully turn on progressive output for DVD playback. But I haven't bothered to get any mod chip software installed yet, I'm busy renting games to find out which ones I'd like to buy.
Honestly, I think online gaming would be a lot better if they banned people for foul language. Not because I'm sensitive to it, but because I'm sick of being yelled at in leet-speak by some random 13-year old with a major insecurity complex.
Count me in. In fact, count in the entire XBox/Linux group. A $200 Linux box is a very important thing to many people...
Want to Know How to Cheat the GPL? Read On!
Well said. Although permanent banning is probably a bit over the top.
Want to Know How to Cheat the GPL? Read On!
That's the biggest question I have. If MS wants to keep all the cheating hacking losers off of 'live, then hell more power to them. How many stories have we seen where services are hurting because some idiot kid made the newest cheat/hack and distributed to all his friends? Ban the lamers, good!
/w modchip to knock other legit customers off the network. Probably not a good move by Microsoft, but hey - sometimes these companies don't know a bad idea until it blows up in their faces...
However, a permanent ban is a bit much. If somebody is - par example - using a mod to allow them to play out-of-region games they couldn't ever get here, or perhaps to run linux... then no problem. Having a mod that could be turned on/off would solve this, except that the first time you're caught, you get nuked. If you're not cheating, it's not hurting the network (piracy is another matter).
Besides, will it really be all that long before somebody builds a "stealth mod" or something less detectable? I've already seen a lot of mentioning using a hacked ID
How is this so much different from Blizzard banning hacks on their battle.net service. Everyone seemed to like that because it kept the cheaters out. But when Microsoft wants to ban people that modified their product its such a bad thing?? With those mods they could potentially cheat in online games. I for one see no harm they can do whatever they want and if I play online I want to play with others that haven't opened their xboxs..
Let's see. It has to cost them $40 for the hard disk, and maybe $40 for the DVD unit and maybe $9 for the power supply. This doesnt include the Nvidia chipset and the motherboard. Put that cost in there with the development of the sw bios and advertising and poof.
Anyone have any inside knowledge of what they pay in bulk for these components?
Relive the BBS Past - One Byte at a Time! www.ssabbs.com
Modchipping an XBox can be likened to putting a giant mirror behind a dealer at a blackjack table. Sure, you could be using it to fix your makeup, but you can use it to cheat. So quit your bitching. Hey, you're lucky they just ban your XBox -- in Vegas they have giant bouncers take you downstairs to "have a chat" with you.
evil adrian
All the more reason to switch to GameCube.
What is needed is to change the UID of the boxen, so that modders can essensially ban/outlaw every xbox out there. This is DEFINATLY possable. even if the UID is buried in the processor(i dont know that this is actually the case) it would be possible to intercept the data before it sent out of the box and do a data swap..
i wonder what microsofts stance would be after they have banned every available UID?
One of the purposes of MOD chips is to allow cheats. One of the strengths of XBOX Live is its resistance to cheats, common in most other online games. The minute you crack the box for mod you void the warranty and user agreement. Grow up.
Best!
Well the way I understand it is that x-box live is a test run for palladium, obviously it will not be exactly the same... but the frustrations will be. Major difference is that x-box live is not the major gaming console, so there are viable options. Not so when palladium comes out. This "test-run" is also another reason why M$ is willing to lose money on x-box*. It is an investment to them not a pure profit item.
I have an xbox, and it's been violated ten times over. It boots linux, it runs mp3s and DivX, and plays games off of an 80GB harddrive (that sits in a drive bay that swaps out a couple of 60GB drives too). M$ lost money on my purchase and I like it that way, I'm not about to pay $50 a year to them for network play, even if it is good. It's not worth it to me. By the way, email me for tips on modding, I'll try to help you out !!}:D!!
rm -rf ms/*
I'm still trying to figure out how exactly someone is going to cheat online using a mod chip. Using a game enhancer (gameshark, pro action replay, etc) sure, but a mod chip? Good thing Xbox has a whole lot of jack for imports.
Look... MS is protecting their investment which you benefit from Each Xbox sold is done so at a loss and they make money from the selling of licensed games and add ons. Mod chips allow PIRACY through illegal "backups" that are traded or sold. This business model is why the Xbox, PS/2 and other games systems sell so cheaply, otherwise they would be selling for $600 or more.
MS is in the hole $177-million on Xboxes and you are all upset because they are protecting their investment and would like to make a profit? If you don't like the rules DON'T BUY THE PRODUCT.
And this has nothing to do with free speech. This has to do with viability and survival. Steal the games and Xbox goes away.
Anyone remember Blizzard's Battle.net service and all the fuss that came from a certain group after Blizzard went after the bnetd ppl? Blizzard shut-down bnetd because a number of users were using that servie to run their pirated copies of WC3. There were of course ppl there who had a bought copy and preferred bnetd over Battle.net. I can't believe that ppl are supporting MS's decision to ban modded xboxes which ppl bought and condemed Blizzard for shutting down bnetd which was widely used by ppl with stolen copies of WC3.
You buy an xbox and then you can do whatever you want to do with it; it's your property. You buy a license to use WC3, the only real thing you buy is the CDROM on which it comes.
A clever idea but compltely retarded if serious.
You would prefer to see someone bring the entire service down, screwing over many thousands of your fellow gamers, throwing up a road block to progress in the online gaming community just to prove your point? People payed for the service the way it is, they want to use it, and you want to take it away from them for a time to get your agenda heard.
Lets say someone did this and took the service off line for a period of time. Do you think that person would be flooded with letters of thanks from the XBL subscribers, or do you think they would want your head on a stick?
I am a subscriber and was beta tester so im clearly biased because I enjoy the service.
This reminds me of the small minority of people who think that abortion is deadly wrong, they arent content to let other people make up their own minds. No, they would rather bomb a clinic to prove their point and make the world see how truly wrong abortion is.
Im all for modding xboxes, I follow the progress of linux on xbox, I dont care what you do with your xbox, but if you try to take it online and fuck up my gaming experience with cheating, then I will support any means necessary to have your ass banned. Mod your xbox all day long, just keep it off the gaming service.
Consoles are all about a pure reference hardware platform which can reasonably be expected to operate in an identical fashion for all users. Microsoft is attempting to provide this service, and it's not easy what with all the people running around modding their hardware.
No one is telling you that you can't mod your XBox to your heart's content. If I revive one of the stupid car analogies so many of you have been trying to apply to this situation, it's like making a bunch of illegal rice boy modifications to your car (clear flashing lights, for example; the lenses can be clear but if they flash any color other than amber (or red on the back) then they're illegal period in most states) then you're not allowed to drive on public roads. Even then you might find a way to do it (IE, avoid cops) but you can get in trouble (banned from driving on those roads whether your car is modded or not.)
Also I'm tired of all you people who say "What about the innocent person who doesn't know it's been modded!?" First, when you buy something from someone, you should get a guarantee of some sort in writing. Know what you're buying, and know what to look for. Second, modded systems are typically advertised as such, because they are worth more. BTW, I have a chipped Sega Saturn for sale, anyone who's interested should contact me. :)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
People that mod an X-box usually do so for one of two reasons:
1) To put Linux down on it.
2) To play pirated games.
In the case of #2, if you're pirating x-box games, you're cheating Microsoft out of money. Whether or not you think Microsoft should make a profit out of their products is irrevelant.. the fact remains that you are still playing pirated games, so why should you demand to play online with them, too?
I'm not a huge fan of Microsoft, but I'm with them on this one. If you crack open your microwave and mod it so that you can run Linux on it (Imagine that! MicroLinux ;)), would you call up and bitch to the manufacturer that you can't heat up your dinners anymore? I think not.
- vmfedor
I like my women how I like my sugar.. granulated.
One other notable thing I read about this, is that XBox Live doesn't play nice (read: not at all) on AOL's broadband service, and that MS is currently pursuing obtaining rights to have the service work on their network. Not that I'm some kind of AOL sympathizer or anything, I think they're a sad, sad service but you'd think MS would have locked that kind of thing down earlier. Like it or not, there's a pretty hefty userbase on AOL (although admittedly I don't know any numbers on how many people are on their broadband service). Comments?
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
Where does it stop? AT&T (back when it was ma bell) used to forbid people from using answering machines not made and installed by AT&T at enormous expense. If you broke the rules, you could be sued, but worse, they could permanently refuse to sell you phone service as "punishment."
How dare we tamper with ma bell's own lines? How dare we?
Dont change the subject. Mod chips have many legitimate uses, and many legitimate users. Microsoft disagrees - what stunning moral logic of you to assume Microsoft is acting honestly in doing so.
I expect them to suck it up and take it like a multi-billion dollar monopoly.
Want to Know How to Cheat the GPL? Read On!
In the xbox world, Microsoft has a good claim that the mod chips hurt their business. People wanted to get pirated software, and MS said 'that hurts our profits'. If you want the ability to run Linux they have made a way to do that: GET A DEVELOPMENT KIT. If you want to make your own games, get a dev kit. If you want to play pirated games, you are a theif, (but could do it with a dev kit).
In the bnetd world, Blizzard has a poor claim that bnetd hurts their business. People wanted Blizzard to improve their online sites. People offered to pay; ISPs offered to host; Consumers complained. They could have EASILY said "We'll offer new servers", or "We'll license ISP's to host", or "We'll let corporations like McDonalds host and add BigMac items that restore lots of unit health". When the bnetd folks asked them for help, they just said "no." When bnetd didn't do the things Blizzard did, they could have made an agreement with bnetd to include their 'security code'. Did they? No. They filed a law suit instead of implementing their 'security code'.
To finish the comparison: Where Blizzard just filed law suits, MS said "keep stuff you have changed off our servers." Where Blizzard said "No other networks, period, we don't care if you are legit or pirates", MS has said "Developer networks are fine, just show that you are developers and not pirates."
See the difference? I personally dispise xbox mod chips because they hurt my paychecks. But MS were to somehow require that you used their servers and couldn't use dev servers? Or if their servers get clogged and they won't let new game developers enable custom servers? Then you will have a valid comparison.
frob.
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
Actually, the non-soldered mod chip is "matrix" or "xodus" and it _does_ affect them too. Nice try.
Hey, say whatever you want, but this could be a BIG funthing for the elitehackers:
Why now hax0r the mod-detection-routine and ban ALL xboxlive-accounts?
Hey, it may be THEIR xboxlive-service, but it is still YOUR xbox and who can sue you for using a new ID every day or at least report another one every day?
"Life is short and in most cases it ends with death." Sir Sinclair
Well I don't know about anyone else but I have a modded xbox and can still play on XBOX Live. I'm not looking to cheat or backup I just want all my EMUS. Please don't ask me about how I am doing it cause if I knew then I would tell the rest of you modded XBOX people.
...last I checked the US law enforcement agencies reach extended well into Norway, for example. (Remember DeCSS)
Some of the stupider US laws seems to have a more or less global reach.
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
Count me in!
I'm going to use it as an el cheapo web server and for oggenc when im not gaming.
Huge thanks to the XBox/Linux people.
But I'm bloody well not giving you my email adress.
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
do anyone of you already pay to play games such as Everquest or ultima? if so i cant see the fuss, they also have very strict rules over banning.
This is only slightly different as its the hardware that is being banned. Simply solution, dont modify the console or dont use it on their online service.
£40 a year is damn good (im assuming this is the price?) when compared to eq or similar games. With this they will maintain a good gaming network (which is getting good reviews so far) and make a little money, good for them!
As to those who say "im gonna take my business to sony" good for you, you go to sony, you use their online service, oh wait, do they have one? nuff said
If someone sold you a secondhand car that worked -despite- having the seats replaced by the previous owner, would you be angry that the car dealer no longer allowes you to drive the car?
No but if someone sold you a car in which the seatbelts had been removed and replaced with packing twine, most states (in the US) would not allow you to drive on the roads, and a manufacturer would be obligated to report it if it came in for service.
Doesn't mean that the car doesn't run fine, just that the original warrenty has been voided, and it's no longer certified to meet safety regulations.
(not knowing much about XBox modding...) so wouldn't an effective denial of service against all Xbox live users be to fake out the hardware ID? (just loop thru all possible) That would put all Xbox's all the banned list, so no one could connect.
Or maybe no one has figured out how to intercept the call for hardware ID and return false data? But maybe could just alter network packets to the same effect.
it would be funny when a serial generator is made and unmodded folks are banned, since all they have to do is run the connectivity tester to be banned.
This is definitly a microsoft unfriendly zone I think we can all (almost all) admit to a little biased here. The reason they ban the modded boxes is to prevent cheating(maybe they have alterior motives maybe they don't). Quite possibly most with the mods won't even be able to cheat but its one less variable to worry about when trying to weed out who's cheating. Hooray for Microsoft the only cheaters they allow is them and as far as online games are concerned I haved to agree.
I will be known as Ian Black, Ean can be Ian Red, Netgod Ian Blue,
Che gets Ian Yellow, CQ is Ian Purple and Joey is Ian Indigo
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