josquint asks:
"Does the Computer Service/Repair field need to be regulated? This is a question I asked myself after spending a day off from my position as Lead Technician at a local computer shop, in an auto repair shop and a hair salon. In both places, I noted that all the employees had their trade credentials displayed for all customers to see. They are not only displayed as a matter of pride or to gain customer trust (as my A+ and Network Security certificate is) but as a matter of law. This regulation, to me, makes sense. If you're going to pay good money to have your automobile repaired, it better be by someone trained and proficient at doing it (otherwise I might as well do it myself!). Also, there is a matter of safety --an error in repairing a car can easily result in injury or death of quite a few people, so some accountability is needed.
The salon regulation, to me at first, seemed like the usual overkill large government regulation. However, it too is a matter of safety to the clients, as the chemicals and equipment (tanning beds especially) can also do harm if used incorrectly. Would you view regulation or mandatory certification as a good thing in the computer repair/installation/maintenance world? What kind of regulation would you like to see, if any? How and at what level would it be implemented and enforced?"
"I personally would like something that requires certain basic certifications for the techs themselves, and possibly something to do with retail shop areas (use of static mats, data backup procedures, etc). And enforced at the State level similar to most small business type codes.
I wouldn't have a problem following some such type of regulation, and probably wouldn't need to do much if anything to make code. I do a fair share of cleaning up after fly-by-night companies/consultants/johnny's-14-year-old nephew-that-really-knows-computers. It costs a lot of the local businesses serious money to replace lost data and sub-standard equipment. I just completed a total system replacement at a clinic that had the system replaced about 2 months ago. It cost them over $10,000 for a system the should have been close to $3,500, but they had to replace the first replacement due to a consultant that had no experience or knowledge in that type of system trying to put one in.
While regulation wouldn't solve everything, I think it might cut down on the riff-raff and wannabes in an industry that many businesses can't do without as they can't do without electricity."
Slashdot Mirror
If you can't fix my $100 sink without a license, why should you be able to fix my $3000 computer?
Computer certification would be GREAT! We've all seen that there's no dishonest mechanics.
riding round the world on an old motorcycle
Simply because a location has gov't approval you'll assume they're qualified.. which is really harmful to the consumer. (because guess what, they're not!) We should rely on a shop's reputation built up over many years of good service to decide.
An automobile mechanic is certified and licensed because there are safety issues that can be fatal when a mechanic performs their duties improperly.
Similarly, a hair stylist has sanitation concerns that must be met to provide a germ-free and safe environment.
A computer technician normally troubleshoots and diagnoses systems that do not have concerns of this type.
Granted, there are occasions when a system is critical to the functioning of a system of this type, such as elevators, but most of those functions are licensed anyway, so the technology must be certified, rather than the technician.
All opinions presented here aren't mine.
A+ certified people are the dumbest of the field..
Certifications are a waste, since only the unskilled seem to go after them.
Look at MCSE MCSA and A+
Are you sick of having techs who only got thier job through someone they know, not what they know?
:P
Good slogan for it
Personally I'm against any kind of legal controls on business unless there is a huge case that those controls are necessary (not nice to have).
The things I see in the cases above are people who make bad choices and ignore the simplest of common sense when hiring someone to do any kind of work.
This would just add costs to those who want to do the work- which would get passed on to the customer and drive out the little guy who doesn't have the time or money to get a 'license' to fix computers.
Not to mention the possible legal hassles for helping someone out.
Nope.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
experience is the big thing in computers.. although if you have had experience then passing a+ is no proplem, course just because someone is a+ certified doesn't mean i trust them to fix my computer.. if i had a problem with my computer i couldn't fix myself i'd want someone with a little more than a+.. i'd say a+ should be the minmal requirement for the idiots at circuit city and futureshop that defrag yuor harddrive for $40.. it's time to raise the bar.
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
I think it's a double edged sword.. Being Certified doesn't mean you can do it. I once had an MCSE ask me what port Telnet ran on. Not Being Certified doesn't mean you're an idiot. I've seen people blow away cert's and not have a single cert themselves. I would think for it to mean anything, a whole new system would need to be devised. Good Idea though, I see too many people that don't know their job (and lie to customers), and make more money than me.
I have my MCSE (and CCNA, and Solaris) Certification. Requiring a certificate doesn't ensure quality in any industry... especially computers. Just like the large number of "bad" mechanics, "certified" professionals in the PC world don't allow us to filter the "wheat from the chaff"... only good judgement does.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - The Celtic - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Why can't it be voluntary, and the consumer can decide if they want to use a certified/licensed one and pay the $ or a cheaper unlicensed one? Because the consumers are mostly idiots?
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
I'm gonna ramble a bit here...
Should we have a congolmerate authority?
Or perhaps a list of accepted certs?
Or one cert to rule them all...?
Will there be a hierarchy or certs (my cert is better than your cert.)
In the end you may open up a can o' worms. But some regulation is needed, yes. How about a union? (but I don't want to pay dues, cuz that sux, so perhaps that's out as well.) I'd also like to see a unified pricing code as well.
If the gov't is going to require certification, all you need is your A+ and Network Security certs. You know how "advanced" the A+ is with all of it's DOS and Windows 3.1 questions.
Anyone who passes these tests is definately qualified to repair my computer running my favorite flavor of *BSD or Linux!
I dont think the actual maintainance needs regulation as much as customer service in general - for all industries.
Frys for example has horrendous levels of bad/returned equipment (because the purchase and resell refurbs and returns and bad equipment side-by-side at the same prices as real brand new equipment) and they tend to have very very poor customer service.
I would rather have a level of customer service that should be expected from any and all customers - maybe even regulating the return/exchange policies....
If all companies were required to have their customer service entities live of to an expected level of performance/satisfaction it would do wonders for trust and consumer satisfaction in general.
I cannot tell you how angry it makes me when I deal with difficult, deceptive or rude customer service agents.
Think about it: Do you really want an MCSE fixing your computer? Licensing mandates a certain minimum competency, but in practice it means that all people fixing computers operate at that minimum competency. And you know that the big players like CompUSA are going to get involved in the licensing process in a way that makes their employees get the certification easier than independents.
Even if it means I have to be an informed consumer, I'd much rather have choice and make my own decisions. With choice there will be reasons for the good people to stay in the field.
No damn way do you want government regulation involved in fixing a computer!!!!
Give me a damn break, any idiot can follow the instructions to build a computer usually easier than putting together that cheap furniure you buy at Target.
Fixing some software problem will rarely if ever harm the hardware so protecting your investment is silly, and if you did your damn backups you should have nothing to lose.
And as computers become ubiquitus where would it stop??? I can just see it now, mother sues her son billy for working on the toaster without a license!
In your car, it is critical that your car be fixed properly. If it is not, it may explode and kill you and your family.
As you mentioned for the salon also, there are safety implications. Chemicals used wrong could hurt you. Tanning beds could have severe consequences.
Now, your computer won't explode and kill you're family. You're keyboard won't start glowing and irradiate you and give you cancer, like a tanning bed can easily.
A mechanic must do his job right or else you may die. If I screw up your computer, you may lose information. You may not be able to forward chain letters. You may not be able to talk to Aunt Millie on AIM.
But you won't *DIE*. That's a massive difference that should be recognized.
to gain customer trust (as my A+ and Network Security certificate is)
"Certifications" like A+ are the reason our industry is plagued by morons.
An auto mechanic cert has to be half-way decent, since lives depend on it. But as long as you can buy a computer cert from an infomercial on TV, they're worthless.
TM
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I think that instead of making people display such accredidation it should be optional. BUT, there should also be some central form/way of distinguishing an accredited IT person from another. If you do this and make it known to those who will make use of their services then it is in the IT persons best interest to get and display their accredidation.
I think this should apply to software engineers as well as system maintenance people.
The biggest problem being that there is little centralization and validation of such accrediation, at least for software.
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
This might be helpful, but a lot of little shops don't go to the trouble of coming up with "data backup procedures" and such, they just do whatever it takes. In some cases, this is good, because the employees are knowledgeable and skilled, in other cases, it's terrible, because they don't know how to do anything except buy new parts or break old ones.. In any case, requiring a certification would put a lot of people out. I'd rather see some sort of definitive/rigorous computer certification that would give customers assurance of the person's skill. The A+ certification is the only relevant one that I know of, and from what I've seen, it's a complete joke. My 10 year-old brother has breezed through a variety of A+ practice exams, and I really wouldn't trust him to fix my computer.
I don't think regulating mechanics, hairdressers, or computer repairmen does much to help the public. If a "professional" doesn't know what he's doing, he's not going to be in business very long. If he makes a mistake that injures you phyiscally or financially, you can sue him.
These sort of regulations are sold to the public as "protection." In fact, they're put in place by politicians in the pockets of established businesses to remove the lower rungs from the ladder of success for others. They make it cost that much more to get in business and compete with them.
Try this some time. You've got a car, and you know how to drive. There are people without cars, who need to get places. Put a sign on your car that says "Taxi," drive around, and offer to take people to where they need to go for a reasonable price. Be safe, courteous, and take good care of your car. See how long it takes before the cops shut you down. There are some cities where the fees to get a taxi cab medallion are in the tens of thousands of dollars. Hairdresses may wind up spending $5000 on completely unnecessary certifications. Protecting the public? A little, maybe...protecting bigger, already established businesses from cheap competition? Oh, yeah...
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
There no ordinary dust bunnies in computers! They have a mean streak a mile wide and big, nasty, pointy teeth!! *Puts fingers to lips* ... Look at the bones!
~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
Frankly, it is just not that hard to fix a hardware problem considering everything is modular. As for a software problem, well, there is always Format:c
They ALSO need 10 stars on eBay and excellent Karma on /. !
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
how can the consumer market or the government regulate devices that it doesnt understand ? and yea i must concur with many of my fellow slashdotters when i say that ive noticed a SEVERE lack of talent and/or skill out of people with 6 certs neatly pinned to their cube wall. regulating that stuff would be wrought with corruption and pay-offs and unconscious paycheck collectors. not that it already isnt, it would just institutionalize the process, a friggin' nightmare.
Hey Jeff, could you come over and take a look at my computer?
Sorry man, I could get in real trouble if I work on your computer. I don't have a license...
If your bitterest enemies are people who hack the heads off civilians, then I would say you're doing something right.
I'm currently a sophomore Computer Science major at a small Univerisity, and I am constantly amazed at how many students declare a CS (and MIS) major with dollar signs in their eyes. Many of these people eek their way through classes (often times carried by their brighter classmates) and end up with the same degree that the top of the class earns. If a tough-certification process were put in place, I'd be willing to bet that half of my classmates would drop out or switch majors. Ideally, this would prevent some of the flood of tech-workers and maybe even raise salaries a bit?
Many licenses that are issued serve primarily to restrict entry into the field and limit competition rather than protect the public, e.g. barbers.
Regardless of saftey matters, some sort of licensing might be a good idea, if only to prevent people being charged outrageous prices by people who are incompetent and cause more damage than they fix
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
How can we tell how well a computer science person is?
:))
Just because I do OpenGL for a living, does that make me A+ certified? Or because I cannot do Linux Admin to save my life, am I not qualified?
Computer knowledge requires too many differnt areas of knowledge, since, by nature, they are a general purpose machine. The things that need certifications, do already, (MSIE, SUN security, Java, C++). I don't think there can be a law that requires me to be certified in computers, because ultimitly it would be a certification in many general subject that most I will never use in my Job or any job in the future I may have...(or forgotten by the time I get my new job
~~~
Click here, you know you wanna!
"Your computer doesn't support Palladium, sir, you must 'upgrade' or we'll have to notify the government."
FATAL ERROR - THIS UNIT WAS OPENED/MODIFIED BY NON-CERTIFIED PERSONNEL
"Oh, back in them days we just handed your server off to an available teenage nerd and charged $50/Hr for repairs. Now that all our technicians are board certified it'll be $250/Hr for repairs, but you can rest easier at night."
UNSIGNED DRIVER INSTALLED - U.S. Department of Homeland Security has been notified, please turn yourself in to reduce expense of taxpayer dollars in tracking you down and hitting you repeatedly with a bat, you filthy terrorist!
It's a brave new world...
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
And the license that you need to run a business is all about money that the local government wants.
So count me out on the added taxes hassles and overall mess.
PS: I could I get a little off the top, trim it so the hair is off the ears and trim up the back. ;)
"Certifications are a waste, since only the unskilled seem to go after them. Look at MCSE MCSA and A+"
When I worked for DEC they had a rule, "A+ or your ass is gone." To keep a job, certs come in real handy. To get a (new) job, certs come in real handy, too. Some employers (prospective or otherwise) may not care about how long you've done something, or if you've been in the field forever, but if you have the cred to "prove it."
I don't feel the need to pay some govt organization for the right to call myself qualified if I am already qualified. This is just as bad as the "Microsoft Tax" of getting an MCSE or something similar. If someone makes mistakes on the job, then they answer for it like usual. Certification doesn't change that, and accidents will happen anyway.
:)
With the way the computer industry operates, this will just become yet ANOTHER tax. You will have to pay every so often for a piece of paper that says you are good-to-go. You are being taxed to work in this industry. Don't fall for it. It's hard enough to have to keep up with new technology, do you want to have to pay even more than you already do to keep up?
Besides, I'm unemployed and broke. I can't afford it right now
-- Having a Creationist Museum is like having an Atheist place of worship
I've had many bad haircuts.
I've met lots of people who are MCSE's who are clueless.
All the certifications mean is that someone has demonstrated to someone else that they can regurgitate material that has been laid out for them. It doesn't mean they can apply the knowledge to real world situations.
I go to organizations that have a good reputation, I've had good experience with, or my friends/peers have had good experience with. If I have a bad experience with them, I move elsewhere.
I like the system. It works. Sometimes I get burned, but for the most part I'm happy because I use common sense.
Idiot, n. A member of a large and powerful tribe whose influence in human affairs has always been dominant
Mandated Regulation/Certification for Computer Repair?!!! more like celda
there is a large difference between a car and a computer: you cant crash your computer into someone and kill them because it doesnt work correctly. there is also that similar reason for all manditory certification: in some way it could hurt someone if the technician/mechanic was not certified. Certification being manditory for computer repair would put alot of people out of a job, and that is bad.
As a consumer I should be looking for people who have certification or experience in the fields they represent to ensure that I have the best that my money can buy.
However, mandating by law that you need it before you can do it is just a restraint of trade obstacle put up by people who want to limit the competition they have. Look at the legal field, for example. A lot of legal work can easily be done by experienced non-lawyers, but not legally.
The same is true of the medical profession. I'm not interested in non-PhD medical attention, but I don't think that means that some people shouldn't have that option, especially if someone with lesser credentials can treat minor health problems for a lot less money.
Instead of mandating certification, I'd be more in favor of a "malpractice" solution. If you claim you can do X and are in the business of doing X and you screw up, then you owe me double damages or something that would provide a strong disincentive for dishonesty or incompetance.
Then we have some people with no formal training who know there stuff and work hard and produce great work.
Similarly, we have folks who have "certifications" that are absolutely meaningless.
Same with our hardware people -- our 17-year-old interns know more about this stuff than the MCSEs.
All this does is make it harder for an independent artisan to make a living -- I don't want Intel's stamp of approval. The only approval I need is a legion of satisfied customers who tell their friends and colleagues and word spreads and reputation builds -- like in the old days before you could "buy" a certification.
While you're studying for A+ or MCSE, there's some 14-year-old with a soldering iron, learning the hard way how to fix a faulty IDE control, and a 12-year-old decompiling the NT kernel to figure out why his graphics card causes a BSoD. And in ten or fifteen years old, your certification will be obsolete, and if you're lucky, you'll be working for the now-29-year-old VP of engineering.
I have no problem with certification programs. They all have varying degrees of trustworthiness to them, so it's a "buyer beware" situation. If you go to an auto mechanic, and you see he's got his ASE (is that the right one?) you can possibly expect him to be better than someone without it. It also means that the certified guy can charge a premium, thus providing you some incentive to go with el-cheapo.
Personally, I don't put a whole lot of faith in certifications. I've picked up a few in my time, even though I was rather clueless on the subject when I took the test. Your mileage may vary.
I would often rather do something myself, or get someone I know to help me do it (if not outright do it for me). Then again, sometimes you'll need specialized equipment. I'll get a doctor to do an EKG, MRI, x-ray, etc. But I'm quite comfortable checking blood pressure, temperature, heart rate, and so on, myself (thus I get checkups less frequently than most, and save time while there by telling my doctor my own results/observations/measurements).
There's also the consideration of what my time is worth. If I can get someone to fix something for me, for let's say $20-$30/hr, and it would take me a significant amount of time, I may pay just for the convenience.
The consumer should have enough education to recognize the value of certifications when they are shopping for a service (people often don't consider selecting a service the same as selecting a tangible product). Once you start implementing government mandates, then you've fucked things up (if I want to go with someone without credentials for my service, that's my business). Besides, I'll pick up a sizeable chunk of cash every so often by fixing some dumbass' PC for them (I would never do that for a career, but spending a few hours a year doing it and getting $1k for all that time is certainly worthwhile). A government mandate might cut me (or you) out of doing something like that.
Down with Saudi Arabia!!!
ASE Certification hasn't helped the quality of auto repair at all. I find most shops really don't care about quality, they're just there to get the vehicle in, quick fix, and get it out. I've often had to go back for issues. For instance: Two broken wheel studs and lug nuts that didn't seem any more than hand tight. I normally check the torque on my lugs a week or so after swapping wheels/tires for the winter, but after getting them balanced at a shop, the lugs damn near fell off.
This is the reason I do most of the work on my truck, and ALL of the work on my computer myself. I dont even trust a computer company to build it right.
-- Liberalism is a mental disorder.
My 20+ years worth of non-licensed troubleshooting is far better than any certification, in my opinion. I routinely fix systems that I have never seen before just because I have a knack for it. I think certification is great, but not necessary.
What are we going to discuss next? How about "should all programmers have CS degrees?".
I can definitely understand where you are coming from but I tend to think that government should stay out of private business because legislating something like this can only lead to hand holding and unnecessary costs.
Now, after I say that, I would not be comfortable walking into any old shop and getting them to work on my computer without either having a recommendation or very visible credentials. This applies even more strongly if I was to blow 20K, 30K or more on computers for my business.
I agree in part with this.... *ALL* certifications aren't a waste, but the A+ certification sure as h*ll is, esp for people with more then a year of experience. The trouble with (most) MCSEs are that they are book smart, but lack the experience to "think outside the box". Some CNE's are the same way (not as many though), so it's not purely a M$ problem (M$ now runs the A+ cert if I'm not mistaken... talk about the donkey and the cart....) Or perhaps I'm just annoyed by jobs requiring an MCSE and an A+ certification... Maybe I should get my MCSE, but I know that shortly after taking those 7+ tests M$ will finally release the XP MCSE track... UGH!!!
"An automobile mechanic is certified and licensed because there are safety issues that can be fatal when a mechanic performs their duties improperly."
Yeah, well when I am playing BF1942 and get shot up due to a poorly responding NIC driver or a fragged drive I want some sort of accountability. It IS a safety issue.
If for nothing else, do it for the children.
come on fhqwhgads
Considering that basic certs like the A+ are easy to pass just by memorizing a braindump from the many websites they exist on, I don't think that having one really means that much. Don't take offense if you have it, I have one as well, but it's at the point where it's no different than getting a health card to work in a restaraunt. It's easy to pass the test, but once you have it, you can still pick your nose on the job.
Cars aren't broken out of the factory. But a PC with Windows on it? Doesn't seem to fair to me.
That's Just a Burglar Alarm -- Ignore It!
with auto repair, it's a no brainer, the credentials should be there no matter what. with a salon, that also makes sense based on the use of hair chemicals and even using sharp objects near someone's head or ears. that can cause serious injury to people. with computer repair, it's a little less necessary i think. there's no immediate danger to people. sure, the investment is huge in a computer system. i wouldn't want some "know it all" consultant installing my $100,000 server. but there's certain responsibility on the consumer's part here. moreso than with auto repair or a salon. you can prefer to only use certified consultants and technicians and ask to see their credentials before hiring or paying for their services. just like you wouldn't walk into any old auto repair shop and just ask them to fix your car without knowing anything about them, you shouldn't just go and hire any old computer technician to repair or install your systems. if it's someone you know and trust, that's great, who cares if they have the credentials if they know what they're doing. but if it's someone you don't know or have no references for, no way of finding out who they are or how they perform, you wouldn't just go and hire them because they're less expensive. you do a little research. also, an important thing to find out is if they are insured. you're paying them to do a job, but if they have no insurance to cover any mistakes they make with your investment, anything that's their own careless fault, then again, you shouldn't hire them because that could be a huge investment down the drain and you have to go and spend the money all over again. but requiring all computer repair people and technicians to display their credentials is crazy, especially since the majority of us are not certified at all, but can still do the job. why should lack of expensive certification keep us from opening a small shop? i don't think the certification is required to repair joe schmoe's old desktop that keeps crapping out on him. i don't think it's necessary to have certification to install a hard drive or some other piece of hardware. that's a big portion of what the smaller shops do and i'd be willing to be that most of them do not have any certifications, because they don't need them. if the comptuer could blow up, then i'd say they should have it, but it can't. having insurance is another story. if they break it even more, they should pay for it no matter what, and even if they won't, you can take them to court and make them pay if they're a real business. for the corporate people, they should ask for the credentials. like a said before, it's a no-brainer.
please me, have no regrets.
Despite the estimated cost of computer viruses and worms, there really is no real comparrison between a tech going around with a disk infected by a virus and a hair stylist using the same comb for subsequent customers after giving a do to a person with head lice, ring worm, or any of the other cute little critters that can live on one's head.
At least not yet.
Consumers should bear some responsibility for their actions rather than putting even more laws on the books. You shouldn't hire somebody who has no experience setting up certain type of system to build one for you. Period. Sometimes, the burden for getting something done should be placed on the person who needs it, not the government. If you need a computer system, research local consultants and ask for references. There's no reason why the government should have to spend time and money doing something you should be doing yourself.
The vast majority of computer 'repairs' IME tend to be OS issues, or upgrades; I'm sure that M$ would love the revenue stream from the suck-an-egg training that would surely be legally required to gain such credentials in order to add a new CDROM drive.
Be careful of what you wish for.
A computer is a consumer electronics appliance.
When was the last time you took your TV to a legally approved government TV repairman?
There are probably going to be a ton of responses that are redundant on this thread, but mostly because there are only two answers to this question: yes or no.
Put me in the "no" side. As you said, there are valid reasons why there is mandatory certifications required for automative repair and salon work - both of which are public safety. Now, being the libertarian-minded person I am, I don't think that it is necessary, but that is the reasoning behind requiring such certifications from those types of employees. It is very difficult to make the argument for computer repair. If Grandma's computer isn't working and she can't get to her email, people aren't going to get hurt. Now, for mission critical systems, like health care equipment and the like, there are already regulations that govern.
Let the consumer decide if certification is important enough when they choose a computer repairmen. My guess is that, because you are certified, you want the laws changed to help you get more work or be able to charge more for your work. That sounds an awful lot like some of the companies and organizations that are constantly bashed around here.
Forget the whales - save the babies.
A+ Ha! Sometimes when I go to Best Buy I watch those techs back there...they really LOOK important. Jeez, its like one step above the fry stand at McDonalds. Those are the guys who not only have the "sticker mods" to their Cavaliers but also a custom head unit.I can't image letting them touch my machine for any reason. Regulations & certifications will not get rid of idiots and clueless hiring manager. Good Stuff!
Several years ago, NJ tried to pass a bill that would require licensing software engineers. It was quickly boo'ed down.
It seems like all the workmanship problems in the industry are software related, not hardware. As many of you have seen, much of the code out there sucks. If we had more certification, then there would be a tangible difference between sketchy H1-B's who claim (usually incorreclty) that they can write code, and those who are competent coders. No other industry has such a lack of standards as our, we need some way to discriminate between those who are competent, and those who aren't. MM
HI I AM A STUPID CHILD THAT DOSENT KNOW ANYTHING. OH AND ONE MORE THING !LOOK WHAT I CAN DO.! ;lkasjdf;lajsd;fljas;dlfj a;ldfksj a;ldkfj;a lsk;ldfja;ldsfjv;lksjcv;lkjfdl;kjsv;lkjw;lkvjcs;lk dhv;la
In virtually every field all the license does is create an artificial barrier to entry. Or are you telling me that you've never had (or heard of) a crooked auto mechanic, a bad hair stylist, or a shoddy plumber?
Getting a license is generally little more than paying a fee. Usually there's no testing involved. It's just another revenue source for the county or state. It's also a way to make unionizing more easy, since there's a central registry of everyone in the profession.
Frankly, as far as computer techs go, I've seen plenty of "professional" technicians that don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. And yet they stay working at large outlets like CompUSA, Best Buy, etc. because the customer service there is so crappy it doesn't matter.
Oh, and your licensing isn't going to stop most of the cases you're concerned about. In most states it's legal to do your own auto repair, haircuts, plumbing, electrical work, etc. And you can still call in a pro if you bork it up too much (or go bald/crew cut in the case of the haircut).
So what exactly were you hoping to gain from this?
Enough of regulation, at least where it is not some kind of major Health & Safety issue. Yeah great more tax dollars flushed down the toilet to manage some new government behemoth.
(If an independant group wants to start up a standards organization or something fine, then those who feel more comfortable can go and find certified techs - heh like A+)
How the hell can a state level government keep up with the IT industry? How can they possibly set up any sort of regulatory standards? Better watch it - next thing you know they'll have some crap like "class B computing device, must be compatible with Microsoft Palldium computer environment", well not exactly that, but you get the picture...
Heh you want to see something really funny - check out Canada's federal gun registry. A federal database of firearms - not really *that* big a deal is it? Well it's already cost about $1 Billion, and it's going to costs millions more because it still doesn't work. This is the bang for your buck you get from government! Or how about NASA? And you want them to regulate who fixes computers and how???
I mean, try and even come up with a base set of standards a tech should know - it can't be done.
Besides, the argument given only works if there exist no bad barbers and no bad mechanics.
the story is the troll.
It would help increase wages for all of us that are certifried. Doctor's and Lawyer's have to be. Look how much they make. If that's the price of addmission then count me in. Mo money.....oooOOOH YEA!
I know I've had to clean up after many of people and I've known one wookiee that's had to clean up after me. All in all I know alot of idiots in the industry that have flooded the field over the past 4-5 years. The only question is who would regulate such a thing?
I honestly think it's dumb to require people having certification. If I'm a Computer Technician that 20 years experienced and now I'm forced to get certification to "prove myself" by the gubmit I would be pissed. It's totally unnecessary.
Serious, car mechanics usually get customers through reputation, not some ASE sign. Same with Computer Repair Technicians, I would rather have my computer fixed by someone that has 20+ years experience with no certifications than some dope with an MCSE or A+. If a customer is not satisfied with your work, he'd be smart to not come back to you. If you want to find a reputable company start a site like epinions.com
I don't see computers as a serious health risk, I mean there's a chance that an AMD processor might start smoking, but I don't see how a computer can kill you.
This whole regulation is pointless, it would just be another excuse for the government to unnecessarily intervene with business (and this is coming from a socialist.)
PCI card swapping
Case assembly
IDE installation
PC case fan installation (I'm working on CPU fans)
SCSI hard drive installs (but not SCSI CDROMS, tape drives, RAIDS, or other SCSI devices)
AGP video cards
PCxxxx memory (but nothing before 1997) and not Rambus memory
Currently working on CPU install and LRF support (little rubber feet)
GIMME A BREAK!!! Fixing a PC is simple
All this is going to do is make silly tech schools (like the infomercials as seen on TV) more money and make people invest into a career that already doesn't pay that well
I hate it when educational institutions make extra money just because people HAVE to be TRAINED to do something that is REALL easy!
Taking a deep breath now
Just my $0.02 cents
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
How hard is it to replace parts on a modern PC? I regularly add components, and troubleshoot issues on the 5 machines I have running in my house. Nowadays, component repair isn't even done anyway (if a diskdrive is bad, they remove the data if possible, and then install a new drive). I don't know anyone who actually does desoldering and replacement work anymore. Ugh. Having a manditory certification program would just add costs to everything - even new computer prices would go up - since most machines on waranty will have work done through the dealer, who would have to have certified repairmen. We don't certify ditch diggers and construction workers (who potentially have more impact on our lives on a daily basis everytime we cruise down the road). Lets not create extra useless costs for the rest of us, by certifying computer repair people.
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
Licensing is simple a way to raise money for the state and create politics. Some times it makes some sence, medical doctors are licensed, but even there it simply creates a cover up indiscretions of the members. Bad doctors hardly every have their licenses revokes.
I don't know about your state. But in my state (Oklahoma) you have to go to school for two years to cut hair, two years put put plants in some ones yard, six months to train a hourse and eight weeks to be a cop.
Almost all licensing is wrong. Anyone with a screwdriver should be allowed to work on computers.
There are 10 type of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
One of my biggest frustrations is having to explain to customers the difference between an experienced programmer who develops web applications and the community college level web "designer" with a cracked copy of Photoshop and Dreamweaver who's going around town. I do a lot of work with hotels and overall the owners/managers are woefully computer/Internet illiterate. When asked, some of my clients don't even know what browser they're running. I kind of like the idea of some certifications to bring some legitimacy to the profession but faced with the ignorance of the unwashed masses, I'm not sure how much good it will do. If they don't have enough knowledge to even know the basics, how are they going to know enough to look for a particular certification? In the larger corporate world, I feel like it will be just another buzzword for recruiters. MCSE? A+? We already know that those titles don't necessarily imply proficiency. I think a union would be better than just another acronym/certification, but there's so many issues with that. Maybe we could talk the Teamsters into co-opting the computer industry. Then we'd start to see some change.
On the other hand, certification programs are inconsistent state to state, and frequently fraught with other problems of politics etc. especially in the initial phases.
In particular, regulating "computer service techs" could be a huge bag of worms. Not only do you have different hardware (PC, Mac, PDA types, bigger iron CPUs, etc), but a vast range of OS options (various flavors of linux, various flavors of windows, macos, pda OS'). I think this makes the problem much more complex than even cars, and cars are already a pretty complex area (usually you get a certification for a particular line of cars, right?).
Finally, I have some certifications myself (solaris sysadmin I & II, network admin, others more obscure), and I can tell you that those tests don't really say a damn thing about how good an admin I could be. They really address how well I was able to remember the trivia of what the options to lpadmin are (for example). Any sysadmin worth their salt knows the man pages are more reliable than his or her own memory. So, while the face of the idea is good, the implementation is likely to be problematic at best, and potentially a disastrous mess at worst.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
You could take it a stage further and make it a legal requirement to take your computer along to you local Goverment regulated repair monkey for annual 'safety' inspections. FBI == Fixed By Idiots
Modest doubt is called the beacon of the wise. - William Shakespeare
This would not work. The goverment is not a fast agency. If they did this we'd be proving we could repair Applie //e computers, not Intel P4's with RAID and fibre channel components.
And can you imagine the politics? Microsoft would want training for people to repair their hardware spec. Hollywood would want people to take an oath not to disable their copy protection devices that might be enabled some day. Homeland would want a quick scan of the hard drive for those terrorist keywords.
I think we are better off with the unregulated way things are now.
That's fine as long I as examination by itself can do it.
After 25 years of experience I don't feel like taking forced basic education all over again.
Where I work, we are strictly a word of mouth company. We don't have to advertise because the work I do is impeccable. When a customer comes with a broken machine, and I get it fixed quickly and save his data, I have a client for life. Furthermore, he will tell his friends, and so on, and so on.
I have more work than I can handle, and our company is growing carefully. I am ultimately responsible for any work performed on a computer, whether it is done by my boss, or my co-workers, because I take pride in what I do.
Regulation wouldn't help in this regard, but it *might* remove some of the shady/incompetent places, for example Gateway stores.
Not ten minutes ago a new customer came in crying that Gateway had formatted her hard drive to remove a virus. Data backup? What's that? Gateway didn't bother to tell her they were going to do this, they just did it.
As I said, regulation *might* remove these guys from the business, but I think word of mouth will do it faster.
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
Certs are necessary for mechanics and salons because of the aforementioned reasons, but let's not forget systems and networks set up in hospitals, prisons, military installations, and other sensitive places where 24/7 uptime is a must. This is where knowledge blessed by a cert (slight sarcascm here) can be the difference between life and death, IMHO.
This is a question I asked myself after spending a day off from my position as Lead Technician at a local computer shop, in an auto repair shop and a hair salon.
You fix computers, cars, and you're the lead tech at a hair salon too? I'm impressed!
Certs don't mean a whole lot in my experience. I've known people with lots of certs and they really didn't know all that much. Anyone can cram for a test and get a piece of paper. I don't have any certs and I work in tech, promoted to supervisory positions over and over for an international corporation. Paper doesn't mean much, just gets your foot in the door.
Der Tod ist der einzige Weg hier raus!
Start from the top.
As soon as regulatory authority is brought to bear to prevent software vendors from circumventing the first and fourth amendments, and when concerns such as quality and reliability are federally mandated, I'll consider supporting this.
Ummmm last I checked ASE Certification wasn't mandated for wrenches. OSHA and all that rot, yes, but that's not really a Certification on par with MCSE, ASE is. And in the end ASE is usually worth about as much as MCSE. My father has been a mechanic for almost 30 years now, and only in the last 3 years has been an ASE Certified tech. And some of the test he took sounded like the MCSE tests, counter to common sense/experience, and in some cases just dumb easy.
Personally I think that the whole industry should be regulated like Engineers, of course then you have the issue with state certification, sitting for certs in different states and such.
What if it is just turtles all the way down?
"M$ now runs the A+ cert if I'm not mistaken... "
t ors.as p
you are.
http://www.comptia.org/about/board_of_direc
NO NO NO NO The last thing we need is President Bush coming in and regulating somthing else, and next thing we know we have a new federal agency created "Computer Certification Awareness Center" and everyone has to be regulated, and watched. and reported. Thats the last fucking thing we need, because we all know Bill Gates would be come chairman of the comitte. and then all hell would break loose and every time we Over CLock a chip or do somthing that isnt the best Idea. We are fucked so NO on regulation!
---
There are 2 major reasons not to have mandatory certification:
1) Public Safety concerns
2) Liability and Certification
The reasons for most mandatory certification is public safety, which is (one of) the purposes of a government.
To use your examples, it's not just the mechanics and the hairdressers that are certified. It's everything involved. The cars are certified and tested to be safe, the chemicals and equipment the hairdressers use are certified to be safe, etc,etc..
Think about the liability on a certified auto-mechanic if the car isn't certified safe? Whose fault is a crash? Must be the mechanic, he worked on the car, right? But what if the car had fundemental safety flaws? Since cars are certified to be safe (yes, there are recalls and such, but that's all part of the certification mostly (and corporate liability) then major problems are avoided because the mechanic knows exact specifications (like how many PSI to tighten bolts).
Last I checked, not having a computer work (personal desktops that is, not medical equipment, etc) is not a matter of public safety. If Joe can't surf the web or Play Quake, no one is hurt. Other professions require certification for safety reasons: plumbers, electricians, HVAC techs, building contractors, etc. The other reasons to have certification is for consumer protection (as opposed to physical safety). Real-Estate brokers, lawyers, and lenders ussually need licenses. Ussually because the law is complicated in these professions and knowing the correct process is important for consumer protection
Anyway, the point is, to have a certified computer technician would cause a lot of problems:
1) No certified hardware
2) No certified software
Imagine Joe consumer goes to get him computer repaired by Certificated Steve. Steve cannot fix the problem because the drivers are bad. The liability on Steve is greater now because he is certified. Consumer Joe calls up the local certification office and have Steve's license revoked. Now Steve cannot make an income because US Robotics modem drivers crash in Windows 2000.
Then there is the fact mentioned above about your sink being connected to the public water system and public sewer. While your computer is isolated by the either a fuse or a circuit breaker, the public water supply and sewage system has nothing to protect everyone else from botched repairs to your pipes.
It is for these reasons that most municipalities require professionals to be licensed. But notice something here. The requirement is usually local. There is no federal mandate and few (if any) state mandates on the matter. (Excepting requirements for federal or state funded projects.)
Government mandated certification would be bad (and idiotic), but there are certifications. You can get a little rubber stamp from Intel/AMD/Dell/HP/Whoever as an 'authorized dealer and repair guy'.
This is why the geniuses at Best Buy can open an eMachines PC to upgrade the RAM without voiding the warranty, and I can't.
The certification stuff is already there for those who want to embark on the high-paying lucrative career of installing video cards in people's Dells.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
I should be allowed to fix computers
They say I'm certifiable.
134340: I am not a number. I am a free planet!
Well, if you're gonna say the certifation somehow qualifies the person to repair computers, then I'd expect a BSEE, nothing less.
I've been both a mechanic, and now a computer tech, and in both fields I've seen people with all kinds of certs that meant nothing because they couldn't do anything right. Most anyone can take a test and pass it if they study hard enough to remember all the right questions and answers. It's the person that builds off their past experiances and is able to think critically that will be of the most value. If a person can't remember something they have had to deal with in the past, the kind of problems you will never find answers to in a book or manual, no matter how many certs they have hanging on the wall, they are useless. I'm not impressed by paper, I'm impressed by a job well done.
Mine means my own, but how can this be if I owe for it?
This is not meant to be a flame.
The problem with legislation like this is it implicitly relieves the individual of taking personal responsibility and investigating his vendors. Instead, Uncle Sam will do the thinking for you, and if you make a mistake anyway, you can lash out and have the other guy punished. Many of us revile those "spill hot coffee on myself and sue McDonalds" type of lawsuits. Well legislation like this encourages that kind of behavior.
...is often different than when they call a technician for their computer.
If I want to wash my hair, or comb it, or other such regular matenence, I don't go to a salon. Same thing with my car, I don't take it to a mechanic to put gas into it or chage the oil.
The problem is that most people do take their computer in for comparitivly simple things. Reinstalling a driver, reseating ram, things like that are in the same vein as changing oil in your car or combing your hair.
And the last time I checked, you didn't need a license to work at a full service gas station or sell someone shampoo.
Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
Regulation of PC repair isn't a bad idea, if for no other reason than because there are so many incompetent repair people (as well as many competent ones), but it probably wouldn't be as beneficial as it might sound.
If current certifications like the "A+", a complete joke, are accepted, customers would be no better off. Perhaps is a certification was used that actually proves the tech knows something, it would be a very good idea.
I am more for the businesses working this out for themselves though. If I go to a repair shop and see impressive credentials, I will be more likely to visit that shop again than one in which they simply take your money, take your computer into "the backroom" and give it back to you the next day.
Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. --E. W. Dijkstra
A barber is licensed to make sure they don't do something silly while styling hair, such as use liquid nitrogen to frost an old woman's hair or something.
A mechanic is licensed because if screws up and forgets a couple of bolts here and there, he could cause a 50 car pileup and have a couple hundred people killed, giant fireballs, and all sorts of great Hollywood special effects that shouldn't happen in real life.
As it is cheaper to replace whole components rather than repair them, a computer repair guy can be a total buffoon and do his job successfully. Look at your local CompUSA if you don't believe me. If they screw up, some college student has to retype his or her research paper over again.
Fine. As soon as software companies have to meet certain basic requiremnts when the sell the software. Like, yes, they may be liable if their poorly written crap shreds my hard drive. If youre gonna start hastling the poor bastard working in the back room of uncle bobs shop, you damn well better be hastling microsoft first.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
this would help stop high schoolers who think they know what they're doing and charging under typical prices. It would give legitimate people and businesses more traffic and income. I would never let an uncertified person operate on my body or car and definitely not on my computer.
"More government is not the solution to the problem... more government IS the problem."
-Ronal Regan
If you liked his politics or not- that statement is hard to argue with. Name a problem that big government (or more government) has EVER solved.
Is it possible to moderate this whole article "-1, Troll"?
Most of those certifications (like your saloon example) are there solely to block competition. The excuses about protecting customers are usually prettly thin.
In rare cases, the customer protection argument makes sense, but those cases are very much in a minority. Doctors come to mind as probably the biggest case. But tanning saloons? If you believe that tanning saloons are regulated in order to protect customers, then I have a deal for you.
There is one, it's called the Better Business Burough. If you want service, typically you have to pay just a little bit more than rock bottom for it. Given the choice between service and cost, enough people choose cost that service seen as a costly extra to most businesses. You may be angry, but are you really willing to pay the extra 5-10% it would cost to provide good service? (if you were you probably wouldn't be shopping at Fry's).
Until our children are no longer molded into castrated sheep democracy remains a fake and a danger. -A. S. Neill
The Free Market Economy is self regulating in this respect. Those who desire to pay more for certified work can, and those who wish to pay less for uncertified work have the right to do so.
Besides you've all taken the tests, thier paper tests, A+ doens't mean you can fix everything, nor does it make you a trustworthy business person. Think of the possiblility of the guy with lots of certs on the wall lying about what needs to be done to fix your computer....mimics may peoples fears of the auto industry.
I just don't see how regulation will really make the market place better than it is.
I have great faith in fools; My friends call it self-confidence. Edgar Allan Poe 1809-1845
Shop Licensing Laws
I should be able to pay whoever I want to work on my computer. It should be up to the consumer to decide whether or not to take their computer to a certified technician. Having a certificate means nothing. There are plenty of crappy certified mechanics and hair stylists.
License for Massaging and Dumping Microsoft Certified Systems Engineers.
You are right, by default contract law dictates that you should know what you are doing. And myself as an engineer I have that problem. I can be held legally liable if I give advice, even if it is free.
BUT and this is what I also see. If people are not satisfied, then no matter how much we know it is a bad idea it will happen. In industry, when there is a problem that cannot be managed by the industry, regulations start. They start because people want some quality and control. And no matter how much we whine, the law makers will not care.
THEREFORE, it is up to us to fix it!
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
Well the PC is a fairly young indusrty. How many Certified Jiffy Lubes were servicing the personal automobile in 1925. Granted the PC industry growth is much faster, pc support shops are still primarily mom and pop (or pop and pimply faced kid) operations. Besides I dont think a cert would mean much. IF I were hiring a tech or a consultant I really wish they could give me "Certified criticiaily thining person" certificate to see. Do you know how many "certified" morons there are out there?
-- Insert wisdom here:
Give me a damn break, any idiot can follow the instructions to build a computer usually easier than putting together that cheap furniure you buy at Target.
So true. And as for exceptions to this... WELL GET PROFESSIONAL HELP--shops. Therefore, there's not such a need for computer repair shops as there is for autoshops and salons. The few that exist (why?) are too few to deem certification practical.
Why:
Most people buy a new computer or figure out how to upgrade their memory, hard drive, video card, or processor themselves (if even they want to upgrade.) Computer shops are for 1) idiots (to the computing world), 2) corporations to license for use, and 3) people who have to use them to fix a part under warranty.
Case 1 and 2, the shop will know what to do with the PC better than the beginning consumer or company administration could know. Case 3, it is for warranty, plus the PC manufacturer 'trains' this shop... no brainer to use them.
Cover your eyes and click this link!
You are whistling in the dark... what good is it to have certified repair personnel IF there is no accountability for the stuff being used (both software and hardware)? Until you can get rid of the lack of liability for software it won't matter.
Would this make the two computers I built myself illegal? What my friend's computer that I put back together after a "professional" tore it to pieces. Would you still have no problem complying when you're told to turn in anyone who has a P2P program on their machine?
oh my, *this* is going to be an active, fun-filled, /. thread.
..which will no doubt work like ford sending 105 lobbyists [not engineers] to congress to 'prove' the problem is the firestone tires, not a passengertruck that tumbles & crushes it's roof on flat pavement due to a mere blowout.
:)
before you go too far with 'certifying' repair folk, make sure there's an industry putting out certified reliable, safe, equipment for them to work on.
great idea.
personally i think i'll stick with Harry Tuttle.
note: i came into computers from one of the last unregulated trades - house repair. there's a nice mix of gov't safety inspections to prove competance without overwhelming bureaucracy forcing stagnation & unnecessary cost ala most of europe. it's an interesting bazaar system, compared to the usual cathedrals, and i wonder if there's been comparative studies done along those lines.
[in my country there is some erosion of this on residential electrical work -- a homeowner may do his own work as long as it is inspected & passes, or a certified electrician may do it, but no-one in between. that's federal regs misused to protect a union, not to provide safety. your 'unregulated' [regulated by references of solid work, actually] carpenter should be able to string lamps & use the same inspection safety system as the homeowner.]
regulated systems are good, but it does not follow that outside gov't certification is only choas. dig into the history of the topic a bit. there's an interesting vein here.
It's as if you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
/.-ers....
If you DO: As one poster pointed out, in some circles a cert is almost mandatory to land/ keep/ advance a job... mostly to survive as a slave to those who have the money that pays your check. BUT even if you are rightly skilled, you still get classed in that "Bastardass no-nothing paper cert morons" group by all of your self-respecting peers and
So, DON'T get a cert. Then TRY to apply for a job. Wince and cringe when the customer who won't pay you a fair price for service says he'll take his 486 POS to "my boy Jimmy who builds the Pentium Force in his basement" because you don't have any "cred" that looks intimidating enough. "See that A+ cert? That means your boj JImmy is a liar. LIAR!!!" (And in the end you're still a slave to the money that Jimmy somehow makes).
I say, if yer qualified and you KNOW what you're doing, a cert definitely can't be bad thing. Eventually, anywhere, the knowlegable certs rise above the paper ones.
~~~
"The slave thinks he is released from bondage, only to find a stronger set of chains" - NIN
Laws requiring registration/cert etc. for computer repair would I suspect become devices for forcing people to stop helping one another freely, which happens a good bit. (I have done such things free for my friends or neighbors many times.) Occasionally those helped offer favors in return, which would be plenty for some trade association to come in and complain.
The only regulations that would make sense would be of the "truth in labelling" kind. That is, specify that if asked you must truthfully state how many repairs you have done and how many of the machine problems were fixed (or at least not overclaim such), and state a to a good approximation how many of your repair efforts failed, either absolute numbers or fractionally.
An auto that fails suddenly can kill. A computer that fails seldom does even indirectly and essentially never does directly. Moreover, if that kind of question were honestly answered by even regulated auto mechanics, how many would still be in business? (As I think of it, you should be required also to answer how often your repairs were followed by other problems which might have been or seemed unrelated to the initial ones.)
If you want to trust a 14 year old who "really knows computers", and he tells you he fixed one machine successfully and unsuccessfully tried 2 others, seems to me you can blame yourself for problems.
Finally, requiring self reporting of such statistics if you are in business regularly for money and allowing comment by customers so that checking of the accuracy can be done would seem a relatively inexpensive way to gather the stats.
I would be much happier with such things than the regulation of repair or other "professional" people that exists. Amateurs could then do whatever, just so everyone was clear what they were and knew, and poor workmen would no longer be able to keep good amateurs from helping others due to legal force. All this theoretical stuff about dangers to the public is IN PRACTICE bull**** designed to cover the fact that the laws sought are used to reduce competition and all too often to hide the quality of poor workers.
Computers change too fucking fast for that to work. Deal.
Management does not get it. Some sailsman sold the management of, oh so many places, on the idea
that having A plus certified personell would actually DO something for them. I have worked in large and small shops, backyard garage shops to Ingram Micro shops and the A Plus cert was a requirement for technical employment. You would be surprised at the percentage of A Plus techs who are absolutely useless. Fortunately I have a Degree that supercedes the A Plus requirement, but I have been on the clean-up end for A Plus tech's incompetence on far too many occasions to count.
I now work for a small shop, and they require A Plus certification. We have ond guy who can absolutely fix ANYTHING, but cannot pass his A Plus exam, despite having taken it on many occasions. He is stopped from making the money he deserves, just because of a moronis mind-set and stubborness of management. This guy runs rings around the few lead techs we have in the shop.
Bottom line, A Plus is a paper credential and NOTHING more. Some people are good at taking tests, others are not.
If we rely on the government to regulate this field, we might as well load up on useless certifications like low-voltage and mechanical licenses.
Anyone who thinks that the government has a better solution than the free market needs to have their head examined.
Hammer of Truth
Who cares? Almost any computer work done under waranty is already regulated in that you can't do it without vendor certification, for off brand stuff that is I guess the price you pay for getting a cheaper pc. Besides other forms of electronics repair are not regulated so why should pc's be a special case? And finally I haven't met a tech so incompetant yet that he couldn't easily pass the A+ and whatever vendor certs are required, face it fixing pc's is not that hard.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
States make some people get license mainly to generate revenue, but more important to know who to monitor for collecting income tax. Plus the tests and cert are meaningless. All it say it at some point in time they memorized the answers to a test. Most MCSE's and even more trivial certs like A+ are no indication these people can think on their feet in real world situations. Most forget the info shortly after they take their tests, but even the ones who remember have trouble relating to real issues that don't match what their books explained.
The fact the NRA thinks I'm a good guy means jack shit as far as the US Gov is concerned. Same thing with the SAE (mechanic cerification guys). If I see a sign on the wall of a shop all I can assume is that the mechanic in question has enough money to pay his dues.
Hollow words will burn and hollow men will burn.
Ans this guy display his "as a matter of pride". Pride in what? Knowing the difference between NICs and video cards?
About five years ago my brother had a problem with his computer. I volunteered to help him out and fix it for free, but his wife wanted to know if I was "certified" to fix the computer before I touched it. This despite the fact that I had been working as a PC Specialist for over a year, and had years of tinkering experience before starting to do it professionally.
...
Made me want to say, "No I don't, go pay someone to fix it." Of course, I didn't and had him send the computer to me. I held onto it for a couple of months and finally sent it back unfixed. Never even looked at it. A young BOFH in the making
Let's see: I had a Mac Powerbook 180c, and the surface-mounted powerplug pulled off the board. Anyhow, I brought it in, they charged me to replace the board, opened it in front of me... everything was fine except for that. It was an Apple-Certified Repair shop. So I got it repaired. Took it home, it worked. So then I set it aside. Later on, I pulled it out to use it: the fix lasted less than 2 weeks. They said "sorry, you waited too long. No warranty." So I got out my soldering iron and did a job myself. In the process, I also noticed, though, that they had busted the hard drive mounts, and just *set* it back in place. It was loose.
I said "no more of them". I went to CompUSA next, which was both Apple Certified *AND* CompUSA Certified. The problem was my PB3400c: the trackpad button was failing. So they got it (opening the computer: $180), and said "Well, the trackpad needs replacing, but we can't get another one for another month or so. We can close it up, and let you have it back, or we can hold onto it for a month. But meanwhile, we jury-rigged a sortof fix that might last for a while."
Hmm. It lasted for about a year. I went back; they said "well, it'll be another $180 to open it up again..." I needed it. They opened it. They replaced the trackpad -- but used a missized screw, so it failed again within 4 months. Tough. It's a 3-month warranty.
You know, certification really means nothing. I've repaired each of my powerbooks since then, I've done a better job, and the cost was a 2-3 hours of labor at most.
Requiring legal certification is just going to ensure that the people who are really good and cheap don't get jobs through us users stumbling on them and then sticking with them.
I say leave it to random chance, and just let people publish like crazy on the web who is good, and who isn't worth the screwdriver they wave around.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
Automobiles and haircuts change at a relatively glacial pace in comparison to hardware. A certification could be meaningless in 3 years. I think society will move more and more to a eBay like structure where all busineses will recieve feedback from thier customers (oh, look Fry's has 14% negative reviews, maybey that sale isn't so great). Or, look this 18 year old without a degree has 260 great reviews from people he's done similar work for, while the 32 year old with the PhD in the suit and tie has 20 decent reviews and complaint.
Until our children are no longer molded into castrated sheep democracy remains a fake and a danger. -A. S. Neill
Many people in our business don't have a computer science degree, but make their living as programmers. They can do the work. Some people with computer science degrees can't program their way out of a paper bag. You don't want one of them on your project.
Having a certification tells me you cared enough to get it, probably because you thought it would make you more money. It says nothing about how good you are. Having a license, which requires a certification and some money, tells me nothing more about how well you can do the job, or how much I can really trust you.
Ok, I guess that's enough ranting about pieces of paper. They prove you could get the piece of paper, not that you can be trusted to do the work, that you have to prove the hard way.
Damn, where did that soap box come from!
I agree in part with this.... *ALL* certifications aren't a waste, but the A+ certification sure as h*ll is, esp for people with more then a year of experience
THis kind of reminds me of the recent Userfriendly where the interview was for "at least five years experience in XP" or something like that.
The problem with the A+ is A) its outdated, B) its pretty meaningless.. in this day and age, you dont REPAIR power supplies, you put em in boxes and cross-ship them to IBM, or DELL, or whoever.
BUT... (and this is a big but) you probably wont work for any company worth its salt without the A+ cert. I know of companies where _every_ employee is required to be A+ certed, even the HR people.. because that company markets itself as staffing only A+ or better certified people.
I kind of resent the attitude that all A+ certified people are stupid.. I am one and have been in the field for five years at a fortune 500 company now.. and it is absolutely required for my job.. even if I never touch a DIMM or a Fluke Meter. (Though I do use both regularly).
Maeryk
Feminine Protection? What is that? A chartreuse flame thrower?
In a former life I was an "ASE Certified Master Mechanic", gold gear and all. I was literally shaking when I left the testing room because they were the easiest tests this side of a urinalysis and I personally knew people who conldn't pass the tests who were working at Sears on someone's suspension, steering, and brakes. That really scared the crap out of me. There was an idiot working in a position where he could kill someone through his incompetence.
Computer related certification tests are many, many times more difficult.
I don't think that it would work well to have our certs required because they might get watered down even more so the unwashed masses could pass them.
No, I don't think MORE government regulation is needed, especially on yet another aspect of my life. Instead, how about employer accountability of their employees? The employer is the one who suposidly check their employees references to make sure they knew what the hell they were doing. Insofar as a self-employeed person goes, I think the BEST "credential" there is would be references from either past employment or clients. Put 'em up in a frame if it makes you feel good.
However, I think just the opposite of what you're asking. I really believe that it's the END USER that needs some sort of "license" or whatever to use a computer. At least some sort of intro to computers class where they get a fancy certificate to brag about to other AOL users. If that happened, it would eliminate the unbelievably stupid questions and problems that seem to popup all the time.
Perfect example... Many moons ago (about 10 years) I worked at a small mom & pop computer store selling computers. One day we had a HUGE storm that caused power havoc all around the region (and other problems) leaving people without power for weeks and causing major surges in other places. I got a call a few days after the storm at work from a customer complaining that his new computer system didn't turn on. I figured that there was a thrown breaker or something on the power strip and asked him to check it while I was on the phone. He said he had to find a flashlight because it was dark in the room and I got a little suspicious and asked if he just had a desk light he could use. He told me he did, but it didn't work because the power was out all over where he lived. True story.
My good sig is in the laundry
Personally, I don't choose my mechanic based his accreditation. In fact, the mechanics with the most accreditation is the dealer and my car NEVER goes there except for warranty-covered repairs! So, how do most of us pick a mechanic? By reputation, of course. Some of the best mechanics I have ever known (my dad included) never had a single shingle.
Thank about it, you choose professionals who work for you based first on their reputation, then as a secondary item, their bonding/insurance for items that have major risk (like plumbing). When was the last time you checked the schooling of your plumber?
It has been my sad experience, that government intervention does not improve the general quality of services, it only creates an entry barrier into the market. (Think lawyers.) Regulation may curtail a few of very worst offenders, but by and large, they aren't licensed anyway (except in the case of lawyers)!
B: In addition to the above, how much is it going to cost to make sure YOUR re-certified with each renewal in specs, standards, hardware and software? who's going to charge you? and how much? how much time will you have to spend in totla keeping up with certification? automotive licenses,a dn medical ones have re-exmaninations over the span of YEARS, which is obseletion in our field.
C: although not a strong argument, it IS true that a great portion of the most skilled techs have NO formal training, or are to young to be certified... etc... Meaning certification would really eliminate a great portion of the best techs from being "allowed" to be available to consumers.
D: Although well intended, can you imagine the problems between the goverment and various software / hardware vendors over who gets to certify, how much it costs, what categories, and what should and shouldnt be certified?
between these and many other points, i find the proposal ridiculous and potentialy disasturous to the industry and our econmy.
in other words.... NO NO NO NO NO
--Enter the Sig--
--Idiots, Every single one of YOU, A flaming mass of conglomerated morons, hey wait a second, isnt that how RAID works?
I say 'No!' for the same reason digital legislation sucks: The rate of change in the computer industry is (at the present time) far too rapid for legistlation to keep up. Give it 40 years and maybe things will have settled down some.
And you thought copyright in the digital age was a clusterfuck!
Sounds more like an insurance concern. I.e. You don't prove your employees trained, we don't cover your liability if they still goof.
Similarly, a hair stylist has sanitation concerns that must be met to provide a germ-free and safe environment.
Certainly another case to make for liability. Don't want anyone catching a scalp disease from a non-sanitary trimmer.
Proving the good health of employees is one thing, i.e. restaurant workers or teachers, but certificates beyond health strike me as more of an general level of acceptance. I.e. We do not hire any 'systems engineer' we only hire MCSE. Why? Well the ceritificate demonstrates a level of training. They're still capable of a magnificent foul-up. Try to report or track incompentent workers and see how many lawsuits that gets.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Absolutely! Lets make a repair license! Better yet, why not make a USER license, allowing only people who have such, to buy and or use a computer.... Better yet, Library licenses! or for those more in tune with Amerika's new direction, Knowledge access licenses! We can start teaching children only what they NEED to KNOW, can't be too careful you never know one of them might become a terrorist. Come ON! We live in a free country right? We don't want to snoop on our neighbors, And we dont want to watch everyone And we'd never ask the traveling public for ID like former eastern block countries.....
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
Let me preface this by saying I run a VERY small side business out of my home. I live in an area of Arizona that is mostly retirement communities, and I advertise in thier papers for "Computer Help" Repair, installation, instruction. I have no certifications whatsoever, and some here would argue not enough knowledge to bring my services to the public. What I do have is a good BASIC understanding of what it is the retirees want, and how to make thier computers do that. If I have a problem I can't fix, I refer them to someone else. It comes down to the honesty of the tech, and the market. How many computers could I destroy before word got around? Not many, I would wager. Government is not needed to regulate this industry, just common sense.
The problem with most if not all computer certification schemes (MCSE being a classic example) is that they are perverted by people who run courses on how to gain certification, but not necessarily how to do things properly.
I am a manager of a section of 7 IT staff, and regularly deal with contractors and recruitment issues. Given the current crop of IT people and these 'certification' processes, I tend to view 'certification' as a process of confirming that the holder has a screw loose somewhere.
. They typically spend large sums of money on obtaining a piece of paper rather than gaining experience or broadening their skill base.
. They feel that they have to ask for an hourly rate far above their practical value to recover these costs.
. They typically turn out to be easily swayed by industry hype (once on the certification track they can't seem to stay off it).
It's not just a problem with MCSE - I've had the same problem with supposed Novell and Cisco 'experts'.
Certification does not guarantee much if anything. My sister's old hairdresser had all the necessary paperwork (as well as awards and trophies) and still managed to burn her hair - and refused to do anything apart from insist she pay for the perm and ofered her additional hair care/repair products at cost.
Certification is simply a tool for the incompetent to promote their skills and inflate their apparent value, and a burden to the competent.
If IT people want to demonstrate value and ability, then do something worthwhile with their skills. Voulenteer at a local community group. Spend time and money on acquiring skills rather than certification. Broaden your CV with abilities rather than certificates. Show that you are an adaptable and talented person.
Its another way for the government to setup revolving taxes... like we need more of that
It wouldn't be worth the money. Government should be paying for universal health care and fighting poverty, not wasting it on regulating computer repair techs.
And really you should be spending your money more wisely if you get ripped off on computer repair. Your computer cost you what? A thousand bucks? Today you are lucky if it is worth half of that a month or two from date of purchase.
If poorly repaired, it may annoy you but is not a safety hazard to your neighbours (unless of course you toss out your 8th floor window in frustration).
If you are spending more than 50-100 bucks to repair it, you should probably just be replacing it instead, and selling the used parts on eBay.
All this does is make it harder for an independent artisan to make a living -- I don't want Intel's stamp of approval. The only approval I need is a legion of satisfied customers who tell their friends and colleagues and word spreads and reputation builds -- like in the old days before you could "buy" a certification.
At the risk of being modded a troll or offtopic, I wanted to draw an analogy here. The statement that you don't want a stamp of approval and that your satisfied customers is all the "proof" of your competance bothers me a little. I see it coming dangerously close to the current state of alternative medicine. Like you, those practioners do not particularly care if they are recognized by the medical community as a legitimate treatment -- they proudly point to their satisfied customers as "proof" that their methods work. I'm not going to go into a long diatribe of how people can be mistaken in their belief that alternative medicine has helped them here (check out QuackWatch for a more detailed explanation). People can be easily fooled. In the process of repairing someone's hard drive, you might actually wipe out the data through your own negligence. Then you simply tell the customer that the hard drive and all the data on board could not be salvaged. Hey, it's not your fault, you tell them, it was simply fried that bad when they brought it to you. Because the customer doesn't know any better, they simply take your word for it. If you do a speedy job of replacing their hard drive, they might very well end up being satisfied customers, completely unaware that YOU were the reason the data was lost.
I'd just like to point out that this attitude that I hear in so many fields about "I don't need credentials. My customers will vouche for me." kind of spooks me a little.
GMD
watch this
...which are worthless after a few years how about a the certification agency just maintains a user-searchable comments database. You take your car/washer/computer into the shop and get it serviced. Two weeks after you've fetched it back, you get an email from the agency asking you if the shop did what they were supposed to. The agency's operating expense is covered by the "certification" fees.
Sort of a mix between the BBB and resellerratings.com. Resellerratings.com is excellent for the market it serves.
Arthur Andersen was full of these Certified, official people. Yet, they screwed their customers, employees, broke the law, cost investors billions.
I think everyone gets the idea. Why should it be any different in our industry?
there's no place like ~
Imagine if you *needed* to go to business school and get an MBA before starting a company. How much innovation would you get? How many new companies? None of the major companies in tech (from HP and IBM down to Microsoft, Amazon, eBay, Dell, etc) were started by MBA's. We'd have the same level of economic development as Bosnia (and rural Bosnia, at that).
Certification is fine as a signal to the market that you have a certain level of 'proven' skill (although we all know that this is *extremely* imperfect information, judging by the numb-nuts who get credentialed nowadays). At least the free market can adapt to properly interpret these signals. Regulation does not.
as far as society is concerned
Cost to society certify + Cost to society to maintain and police certification vs Cost of lawsuits when someone screws up.
Which do you think is larger?
there is the answer.
Well, I'm against this certification crap.
I need my laptop keyboard changed. So I go to the store I bought it from and tell them to change it, I've seen it done before, a simple snap-off snap-on procedure that takes like...1 minute? I could do it in my sleep.
Anyway, so the store tells me "leave the laptop and come back in a week". I go "WTF?!" and ask them why...and what's the answer?
"Well, we havent got a certified laptop techincian so we need to ship your laptop to another city to get one".
Seriously, that's just bullshit. I could do the damned procedure in my sleep if they'd let me. But they wont sell me any parts, and if I want it earlier than a week, then I have to pay extra. No way I'm paying 30$ to have my keyboard changed just because some guy with a "certification" has to do it.
I'm a political consultant, and I'm not sure whether to laugh at the ignorance implied by the proposed solution or calmly explain why things work the way they do. I'm trying hard to remember that some people actually believed the garbage they heard in seventh grade civics classes and that they haven't actually dealt with real politicians enough to know what motivates such laws.
:-)
Laws requiring people to be licensed to do certain things (such as repair plumbing or cut hair) are sold to the public as protection for the public, but, in reality, those regulations are about protecting the people already in a business and keeping prices high for the service. If you honestly think that regulations such as you're proposing will keep out incompetent people, you clearly haven't seen some of the bad haircuts that I've seen from fully licensed haircutters. Do you think the licensing keeps incompetent plumbers from working? Do you think that licensing keeps incompetent people in almost ANY field from working?
Government licensing is popular because it provides barriers to entry into a profession. It makes it harder to compete with the people who are already doing it (and tends to make prices for those services HIGHER than they otherwise would be). But all those things do is create hoops for people to jump through. Any idiot can memorize enough basic facts long enough to get a real estate license, for instance, but that doesn't mean that person is going to be a competent agent. A licensed haircutter isn't necessarily a good haircutter. And a licensed plumber isn't necessarily a good plumber.
The market is what works. If somebody is good at something, you recommend him or her to your friends -- and that person gets more business. If somebody is lousy at something, word gets around and the person has trouble getting work, until he's getting work only from people who are more interested in a cheap price than a quality job. The same is true in ANY field -- even things where we like to pretend that licensing provides a level playing field for everyone, such as with physicians.
Politicians like licensing requirements, because they allow them to tell the voters that they're protecting them, while they're really taking contributions from professional groups of union groups which are eager to lock out competition.
Giving the government the power to decide who is competent to do ANYTHING is crazy. The longer I'm around politics, the more I think that anarchy is a darn good idea.
David
That way we could get our industry up to the same level of service as Airline Security personnel.
There are 01 kinds of cars in the world. The General Lee, and everything else.
The problem is that sinks, hair salons, and even cars all tend to be (relatively) standardized. I know I'm on thin ice with the cars, but I think we can agree that most cars will not be different in radical ways from most other cars. They will all have internal combustion engines, sensors, brakes, etc. - and these will certainly vary to an extent, but I would argue that PCs are much, much more customizable, especially on the software end. This means that a certification for an auto mechanic, plumber, stylist etc. indicates at best mastery of a mature, relatively static technology. That isn't the case with computers, where the most important factor in a technician's skill (to my mind) isn't just an encyclopedic knowledge of PC parts and old windows versions, but the mind-set that allows you to pick up on how a computer is supposed to be working, and fix it, even if you've never used that particular software before, because you have a broad enough experience and knowledge to have a feel for how things are supposed to be.
My A+ certification says that I have mastered such-and-such skills, identified by bullet points on the certificate. And that's great, but a monkey could pass the A+ exam, it could easily master the specific, exact issues the exam measures. What it doesn't measure is good, ole-fashioned tech-savviness, and I don't think any certification short of a CompSci degree can. The best tech I've ever known is forty years old, former French teacher, just got his cert last year on a whim. And I've known A+ certified techs who couldn't install a hard drive.
I'm the stranger...posting to
Yeah, that's what we need....more regulation. Because there's nothing to make your job worthwile like having Uncle Sam having strings attached. Hey, Cliff, instead of doing the California Soccer Mom Shuffle and recommending NEW FREAKING LAWS, why don't you not take any more days off, if you're just going to sit around thinking, "How could the government regulate me MORE?" I have the certifications you listed, as well as many other useless pieces of paper. They were never what got me my previous jobs, nor were they what qualified me to do what I've done. So, before you go dreaming up new bureaucracies to create, new lines to stand in, new fees to pay, DON'T. The only thing that would happen is the A+ would cost 400 dollars US, require a 6 hour wait in an office 20 miles from your house in the most crumbling part of town, and guarantee NOTHING in the way of quality tech work. Thanks to great minds like yours, 6 years from now, you won't be allowed to work a tech job in America unless you have a US Department of Technology Oversite license, which requires an A+ type test to receive, a large license fee, and have strings. Guess what? You can never be issued our license if you've ever visited a DIVX newsgroup, or burned mp3s of songs you didn't pay the RIAA for the permission to burn. Good thinking, pinko moron!
I am an MCP, and I've also passed two other tests on the way to MCSE. I did this about 5-6 years ago.
I had decided I wanted to work in the computer industry but didn't have anything to put on my resume, so a friend recommended MCSE. I grabbed all the transcenders off of Usenet and crammed for the better part of two days before my NT test.
I shelled out my $100 and arrived at the testing center pretty nervous. Surely those Transcenders weren't *verbatim* copies of the real tests were they? Yep, they were. I passed with flying colors the NT 4.0 test having never used NT 4.0. I was an MCP!
I repeated this process for 2 other tests, then got my MPC stuff in the mail. A lapel pen, numerous offers for crap I could buy, and a plastic card declaring I was an MCP - misspelled my name of course. I was thoroughly disillusioned, especially after reading how many "paper" MCSE's like I aspired to be were already flooding the marketplace.
1) How and at what level would it be implemented and enforced?
Constitutionally, the Federal Government has the authority to regulate interstate commerce, and other transactions are left to state and local governments, and to individual citizens. That's the model followed in regulating most industries: Licensing of Professional Engineers is done by each state, and it just happens for convenience that all states have chosen to recognize the standards set forth by the non-governmental American Board of Engineering and Technology. Licensing of local businesses is generally done by county or city agencies.
2) What kind of regulation would you like to see, if any?
As inclined towards libertarianism as I am, I'd tend to say as little as possible. It's a 'buyer beware' world, and if someone other than me is working on my home computer, I'm going to make sure they have a good reputation, even if they are still working their way through college, as my roommate is.
Now, if the people in your community overwhelmingly want some sort of government-imposed consumer protection in this regard, that's up to you. Get your city council or county commissioners to deal with it. But I don't want it imposed on me.
3) Would you view regulation or mandatory certification as a good thing in the computer repair/installation/maintenance world?
Not if it prevents people from entering freely into business deals of their own choosing. As I mentioned above, my roommate uses his computer-building and computer-fixing skills to help pay for college, but it's not something he plans on doing for his life once he graduates. He's damned good at building and fixing computers, and he could pass any certification test you could throw at him, and there are plenty of people who would be willing to vouch for him on personal experience with his work. But would it be worth the money a government or private accrediting agency would undoubtedly charge if it's not something he plans to use for more than a few years? Not likely.
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.
Take a look at Milton Friedman's discussion of professional licencing in Capitalism and Freedom. His contention is that licensing is simply another barrier to entry in an industry, and as such is almost always supported by those IN the industry as a way to keep new firms out, and prices up. He points to government licensing of pedicurists, a move which was lobbied for by (you guessed it) pedicurists, as a way to keep immigrants out of the industry (because they were willing to work for much less.
Would this benefit the customer? Or would it simply make things more expensive?
I see lots of people ranting about how certifications are worthless. Most certifications are worthless, however some are not.
Worthless:
MCP and MCSE
A+ and *+ (everything else +)
CIW
Value:
CCIE
RHCE
Just MHO
Karma: The shiznight, mostly because I am the Drizzle.
I had thought about certification by the state, eh, it won't work as many other slashdotters have pointed out. I fix my own car because of this, I don't do haircuts though.
We need a national union of techs and SAs, with apprenticeships for the newbies who think they know it all (as you get more experience you realize just how little you knew then). This would give corporations a pool of skilled people to pull applicants from. It would also increase job security, allowing us to work until retirement in this trade rather than being pushed aside for someone who is younger and demands less pay. This would make our trade a career and not just something that was once a hobby and is now a job.
That would be my solution, but I have no clue as to how it would work....
Computer viruses, trojans and worms cause mostly cause inconvenience with a small portion of economic cost due to the loss of data.
These two situations are not truly parallel. A better parallel would be to radio technology. While electronic gear is typically regulated, repair of said gear typically is not. This is very similar to the case with networking gear.
Yeah, that way I can tell who's got their A+/MCSE certs(?) and avoid them. I know some are competent, but I've tired of dealing w/ total morons w/ certs thinking they know what they are doing when they don't. I tired of having to explain to them that certain M$ technologies DO work w/ macs, and its their lack of knowledge and competency which are causing the problems.
A certificate doesn't mean anything. All it means is that you paid money to someone. Just beacuse I can answer a few multiple choice questions doesn't prove a darn thing.
It's true that a know-nothing doughboy who fancies himself computer savvy can ruin a system. It's also true there's no shortage of scam artists and other hucksters in the computer tech field. But nobody can fuck up a computer like a user! If I had a dollar for every dingwit admin-type who downloaded Kazaa and a near-infinite variety of spyware onto their machine, plus another dollar for every manager who though s/he knew what s/he was doing when s/he installed that neat shareware program, or opened that attachment from that total stranger, then I'd be a rich man. We'd all be rich, I tell ya, because I'd have so much money I'd have to give it to my fellow Slashdotters in order to avoid becoming one of those Rich Assholes. (I'm already an asshole, so giving me money is just going to compound the problem.) I've admin'd a lot of places, and at every one of them I suggest user education. New toilet seats are a higher priority at most businesses. Most companies would rather undergo a external audit by Satan and his accountants than actually spend money on employee training. "They should already know how to do that stuff," is the attitude and answer I encounter the most, though at no point during the hire process are they assessing computer skills. (I guess the temp agency is supposed to take care of that!) Additionally, if users were certified, we certified techs could refuse to work with uncertified users. "Can you help me with my email?" "Let me see your certs." At least then they might know the difference between SMTP and POP! (Some of this was parody. Some of it was satire. Some of it was real. I can't tell the difference anymore.)
--- yr pal cal "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Another government agency that does nothing useful and employs someone's buddy. Why don't we just have the government open repair shops and cut out the middle man?
"I drank what?" - Socrates
Ok, I don't want to offend anyone out there with a certification, but there are a lot of dumb people out there waving their certifications around as proof of their intelligence. I would love to see the computer repair industry regulated, but the regulations would have to mean something. They should require a short apprenticeship and have to be renewed every year. Perhaps if one of these certified techs screws up the issuer of the certification could cover the damages. That would surely up the standards in these certifications!
Do Slashdot employees ever get bitched out for sitting around at work doing nothing but reading Slashdot? :)
I am A+ Certified and I work with others who are. The quality of the tech varies greatly. I have also worked with tech who have no certificaions and are better than many of the A+ techs. Also, I have seen an A+ tech who could not figure out how to unzip a downloaded driver file. The quality of the A+ techs I have worked with vary to greatly for me to put any faith in the A+ certification.
And if you think back, to when you actually had to PAY ATTENTION to who was fixing your car, because Uncle Sam was not involved in the decision, you probably got much better service for your dollar, and knew a lot more about the work.
For years I took my car to a shop far from home, because they did good work, knew me personally, even occasionally let me use their tools to do a job myself, etc. I selected them based on reputation, and service, and their record with me personally. Not some license on the wall. And just as importantly, when they started screwing up my car every time it went there, I stopped going. Despite the license on the wall.
We Americans are a lazy bunch. Hey, the gu'mmint says they're licensed, must be okay. Here, Joe, fix my car. I trust you because Uncle Sam does too.
Back in 'the day' when the consumer had to actually pay attention, I'll wager the service was a lot better. Sure there were ripoff artists, and bad stuff happened, but those shops didn't stay around for long.
Just so, today, I'd bet that the overall service is better on computers, BECAUSE there is no regulation.
--Brandon / Split Infinity Music
Here on slashdot, the MCSE certification is bashed quite frequently. The 7 tests themselves are rather competent, and do deal with MS-OS issues, but due to the amount of schools out there that are willing to teach answers to specific questions, MCSE certification-holders tend to have a wide range of competency.
The A+ seems to be only worse. Haven't checked Network+ or CCNA yet, but I'd be surprized if there wasn't similiar practices with those certification programs.
The A+ wouldn't be my ideal test for first-tier general PC repair competence, but at the same time, its not a bad little test.
When I look at certs, I use them as guildlines for what I should know. I'd rather have the knowledge for the field of knowledge being tested, then to be taught the answer for each question.
Just my $.02
The only thing I know is that Nick Burns, my company's computer guy, doesn't fix anything, he just insults me for running software that requires 256mb of ram on a computer that has only 64mb. I don't think he's certified in anything.
"Anyway, long story short... is a phrase whose origins are complicated and rambling...." - Abraham Simpson
(2) We're already well down the slippery slope to where we'll have to get gov't permits to wipe our arses, and imho that slope doesn't need any more lubricant.
(3) Private credentialing bodies, insurance companies, and (arguably) the courts do a much better job of regulating professions than any government body can. Which do you trust more: the FDA, or Underwriters Labs?
DDB
Life is like surrealism: if you have to have it explained to you, you can't afford it.
Show me one accounting or business law text that suggests it is normally the case for licensing of hair stylists and plumbers to only a matter of generating revenue.
The fact of the matter is that state governments are far more likely to require all businesses to register and pay a franchise fee to legally operate. The main (if not only) point of this is to generate revenue. It is far easier to determine which business don't file taxes if all businesses are required to register.
On the other hand, most governments that require licencing for plumbing and cosmology do so for public health concerns and the license typically entails passing a fair amount of testing over practices concerning public health issues.
Why deprive the 15-yr. geek next door from his hard-earned free pizza and proximity to your 16-yr old daughter? So Worst Buy can do a lesser job and charge you $100 for installing a PCI card?
Let's get drunk and delete production data!
> an error in repairing a car can easily result in injury or death
> of quite a few people, so some accountability is needed
While I don't know what the certification regulations and laws are, I doubt that there is much of an accountability component in there. When was the last time that a mechanic botched up a repair job and his accountability for the poor (or dangerous) job resulted in any satisfactory recourse to the client? You would still end up having to sue for any admission of fault and reparations. I've had my share of bad repair jobs where the shop denied any responsibility and the cost ended up being all mine.
It's not practical because the required knowledge base changes faster than the ability of the committees defining the assessment. That's not true for hairdressers -- or even civil engineers.
The salon regulation, to me at first, seemed like the usual overkill large government regulation. However, it too is a matter of safety to the clients, as the chemicals and equipment (tanning beds especially) can also do harm if used incorrectly.
You read way too much into that piece of paper. At least in my state, having that certificate on your wall means only two things:
1. At some point, perhaps thirty years ago, you passed a test.
2. You've continued to pay your US$30 to the state every two years to be able to continue to put that piece of paper on the wall.
Why stop at just regulating technicians? I see a lot of low quality posting on Slashdot that I would prefer not to see. Maybe the government should regulate Slashdot posters to ensure high quality posts. I mean, if I'm a sysadmin for a large company and I take some advice from "Ask Slashdot" respondents, I could royaly screw up my network. And for that matter, I see a lot of low quality advice from untrusted sources all over the internet. What we probably need is a government controlled firewall to protect us from all of the bad things we might encounter on the 'Net. I'm also concerned about buggy software. It costs untold billions in security breaches. And I suspect that whole Linux thing is merely a trojan, waiting for a critical mass of people to adopt it, before it unleashes itself on an unsuspecting world. I know I would feel a lot better if people who wrote and/or distributed software were regulated. Of course hardware is no different, just think of all the copyright violations that could be avoided if hardware was regulated to prevent unauthorized copying of copyrighted material. That's probably another $100 billion or so that could be saved by just a little more regulation. And anyone who would oppose these ideas is probably just a terrorist scumbag and we should lock him up without trial or due process. Trials and due process cost a big-ole bundle of money and our goal is to save people (taxpayers) money with just a little bit government regulation. Arrrrgh! Come on people, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
Hey, If we're required to be certified, then by all means there should be an International Brotherhood Of Information Technology Professionals.
See if they continue to hand out pink-slips like rice at a wedding...
We already have a law that encourages technicians to look into our hard drives. Now you want the government to enforce a regulation that would force technicians to backup our hard drives everytime we get our PCs repaired.
If you really want to get rid of the riff raff in your industry. Differentiate yourself. Put a guarantee into the contract you give your costumers. Tell them you guarantee you won't lose their data, or you will pay them X amount of dollars. And if you're afraid they will give you a bad hard drive to begin with. Run your diagnostic and your backup in front of the costumer and offer them this guarantee only once the hard drive has been completely backed up.
If you claim to be half as good as you say you are. You shouldn't be upset that your competitors are screwing up. You should be happy about it. The more they screw up and the more you offer costumers straightforward guarantees -- the more money you will make in the end.
Face it, there are a plethora of "paper MCSEs" out there -- basically anyone who can regurgitate what MS says are the correct answers (even flying in the face of simplier and safer methods). Would you rather have a green, paper MCSE or someone whose got years of experience and hasn't the time or funds to get their cert?
Take me, for example. I've been dealing with computers for easily 20 years. I don't have ANY certs. Why? I suck at tests and I'm poor. Its not for wont of trying or lack of knowedlge. I've always sucked at test (especially word problems). A majority of MCSE-related tests are word problems (from what I've heard) and there's no way in hell I can afford to slap down the dough to take a test and fail it, multiple times. I've had friends with more real-world experience and MCSE classes who choked on the tests. Its not something I'm going to risk.
While I agree certs would give ease-of-mind to customers, they're totally unnecessary.
I was building computers when I was 16. I used to help my high school computer guy after basketball practice when I was 18. I know about 15 other people with similar backgrounds. None of us have ever even thought about getting an A+ cert. Why? Because building and troubleshooting PC hardware has always been extremely easy, straightforward, and demanded very little technical knowledge. It is a hobby for many. Such a lax and intellectually undemanding trade shouldn't require some form of regulation. Basic contractual agreements already protect a consumer enough.
I figure, give Windows 100 questions; the *nixes get 100 questions; 100 hardware related questions; and 100 networking questions. That's 400 questions, let them have 5 hours for the exam, charge them $500 to take it. Set the pass score at something like 87% and get the thing recognised. Then all the other certs get relegated to the backburner.
Ok, I'm crazy, nevermind...
Of course having a certified technician repair your Microsoft PC is like getting a certified mechanic to repair your Corvair.
:-D
Some things just can't really be fixed.
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
Interesting. I bet legally mandated IT certifications become reality as an embargo against exporting IT jobs (e.g., India). Oops, sorry, if you're providing that IT advice over the phone to a USA customer, you must first visit our country and pass our certification exams.
Oh wait, that would drive up business costs and politicians are merely corporate puppets. I guess it won't become law after all.
and manage the licensing fee's ? This is a load of crap, soon you will have to have a license to breathe, one to work, and certification from 3 people who knew your mother to date. Gattica and 1984 rolled into one "for your own good" package.
Must Consult Someone Else.
nuff said
Trolling is a art,
..are those with computer science degrees, and what not, that make mistakes just so the computer geek down the street, who has no degree, fixes his.
:)
I found it great when I was in school having to fix are network problems. When are network admin, who was paid more than are teachers, could'nt figure it out.
With today's throwaway society, what's the point of getting a computer fixed? It's almost to the same point as getting a VCR, DVD player, or TV fixed. Just fill up the junkyard and buy another one at the local discount store.
The submitter writes that both car-repair and salon work could be a safety risk if the person is not trained. Then conveniently leaves out wtf that has to do with computer repair.
What a tard.
"The saddest words of mice and men, are not those which were, but should have been."
The current level of Mechanic Certification and Beauty Salon licenses have come about by codifying some minimum levels in fields that have established Apprentice, Journeyman, and Master education and OJT programs.
These programs were set up by the practioners of these fields initially. They were and still are enforced via Union contracts that stipulate how many of each level must be hired.
Without the Computer Repair Technicians creating these programs. These certifications only mean that you knew enough to pass a test. It doesn't mean that you have spent x amount of time as an Apprentice Computer Repair Tech or y amount of time as a Journeyman.
If you're running your own business, I would think this basic rule applies:
If they have enough money to run commercials, they must be doing SOMETHING right.
Yes, everyone screws up once in a while, that's what insurance is for. Those companies that can afford commercials, can afford to pay you for what they screwed up, because they're already a decent size. It's the small ones you need to watch out for.
That goes for everything from Hair cuts, to auto-repair, to computer repair, to telecoms, to Airlines (What was that one in FL?). Be safe, not cheap, and you'll do fine.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
when i was an undergrad i would repair computers while in school and during the summers. i graduated and was doing repair work at a friends business the summer befor grad scool. one of the customers asked me if i was a+ certified, and i said i had no idea what he was talking about. i had actually never heard of it. he asked my boss why i wasnt certified, and my boss told him that it really wasnt necessary. the guy seemed shocked, but i explained that i wouldnt have time for certification since i'd been busy getting my chemical engineering degree.
i really dont know what they teach people at the a+ places. i learned everything i knew/know from expirence, thought i'm sure i dont know everything. however i can troubleshoot problems, and build computers rather easily.
since my screwups would hardly result in death or injury, i dont think this kind of certification is necessary. when people bring their computers in, they are informed to backup everything they might want. that is if it's possible-some times the boxes dont boot. i've come close, but i've never lost a customers data due to my own neglegance. if the hd sounds like an electric shaver, then it's out of my hands.
-- john
Hmmm...what if a technology were invented in a marketing session, and given a buzzword name that became all the rage, and was really just a collection of old technologies remarketed under an umbrella term, and a certifying body handed out certifications in the new technology without verifying competency in the old, underlying technologies? Would this make this topic any less useless to discuss? More useless to discuss? Equally useless to discuss? I wonder...
In the process of repairing someone's hard drive, you might actually wipe out the data through your own negligence.
This happens all the time; it's called "not good enough to get the job done."
We tried to get our car repaired for months, and each reputable and industry certified mechanic we tried thought they fixed the problem but it always came back.
You can go to three different doctors before they give you the right diagnosis for a complicated problem. I've heard about it from friends, seen it on ER, and have heard that if you have a serious medical problem you should consider hiring a personal nurse to keep an eye out for you anytime you go in for treatment.
If you're certified by a well-designed examination for your industry AND former customers speak highly of you, then you're probably a reliable choice.
If you only have certification, then you might be good on paper but lousy in the field, in which case I'm not interested. On the other side, you may be a smart guy who just never got certified, but for important procedures I'd like a little confidence that you've been properly educated to handle those rare situations you may not have experienced during your hobbyist years.
So I always look for both official certification and word-of-mouth reputation when I need a service. But there's no 100%. Even after 8 years of med school and residency, or 25 years as a computer hardware hobbiest, people are going to make mistakes.
$8.95/mo web hosting
Certification requirements are often just a way for a profession to regulate the number (and, hence, the pay) of workers in a particular field. A gov't should never be able to mandate that auto mechanics be certified. As a consumer, I want to have the choice of whether to take my car to a mechanic without a certification, but a great reputation. This happens all the time in auto repair. My current mechanic is an ex-cop who isn't certified and does a great job for a fair price. Some jobs he won't touch because he knows his limits -- the check light for my air-bag is broken and he told me to go to the dealer for that problem. Same should hold for every other profession including MDs, beauty salon workers, and computer repair technicians.
So what should certification be used for? Insurance, for one. An insurance company may choose to offer a reduced rate on malpractice insurance for those with certification. Customers may choose to use the certification as a starting point in deciding whether to hire an individual to perform a given service.
But certification should never be mandated. That is too open for abuse since the certification requirements are usually set by those who are already certified. This gives the certification board an incentive to make it harder than it should be to get the required certification. In some professions, you can see the long term results. Medicine is a great example. Doctors must get an MD and jump through hoops in order to get licensed. Result is too few doctors. Society has begun getting around that by letting nurses perform many of the tasks that used to require an MD. That is a hint that gov't should never have mandated that those tasks require an MD to begin with.
FreeSpeech.org
Trust me, ASE cert tests are WAY easier to pass than computer cert tests.
Actually the A+ test went to an adaptive question format several years ago; at the same time they went to almost exclusively windows 9x/NT questions.
Besides, your example of BSD or Linux is 3% of the population, almost everybody who runs a Unix style OS on their desktop can fix their own PC.
-witty
After reading a few of the replies to this post, I started to think about what auto mechanics must have thought when, to stay competive and battle the public perception of many repair shops, the burden of a certification was thrust upon them. "The technology is moving too quickly", "Fixing a is as much an art as a science, you can't measure it effectively", etc. The bottom line is that having a certification that is universal, trusted, and easy for consumers to understand is good for business and will separate the quality technicians from the hacks. Lets face it, the "boot camp" method of certifying technicians has proven many existing commercial certifications (e.g. MCSE) to not be worth what they proclaim to be worth. When a relative newbie can go to MCSE bootcamp and 2 weeks later be an MCSE, what's the value? Don't get me wrong, there are many MCSE's who are fantastic technicians but unfortunately, thanks to boot camps also many who need more experience. I don't think the answer is for government to sponsor certification, nor do I think there is a need for government to do anything but issue a business license. What is probably needed is some cooperation and consolidation of the certifications available today. Unfortunately, most companies seem to use certification as a way to sell their product, not to actually make sure technicians have the skills to effectively utilize them.
I think it'd be good for those Freelancers out there contracting their services to business. You have no real way of knowing anything about them other than a reputation if they have one. When I worked actively at Softsense Data INC., we had this freelancer that always came in the shop asking us questions and bullshitting with us and what not. After a while we figured out what he was doing. He was taking jobs for other people and coming by our shop to find out what to do. Needless to say this didn't last very long. And there are countless customers that would come in with really screwed up machines mostly do to a fried that helped them out. I've seen computers fixed by freelancers with everything from the cd drive audio cable plugged into a set of jumpers on the motherboard all the way to a pc with the 5 volt line spliced and soldered to the HD jumpers.
With technicians in a computer shop, sometimes you can assume they at least know something to be able to make money and continue the immense costs of having a repair shop.
Now we aren't talking about life threatening situations. But the potential for harm to a business could be great given an unproperly trained freelance technician screws up something severe and loses large amounts of company data and records.
I don't know that it should be govt. regulated so much as having a decent standard. I think the current certs available are plenty suitable for the different specialties of computer engineering such as the basic A+ and Network+ followed up MCSE or Cisco certs, all the various Comptia certs and Redhat administored certifications. I simply think that someone such as the IEEE could set guidelines for the different fields of computer techs requireing certain documents to be a competent repair tech.
The last thing we need in this business is more government "oversight" or regulation.
Professionals, such as lawyers, doctors, plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics, barbers, etc. are required to be licensed, and in most cases, this is a good thing. They work in fields where mistakes can lead to wrongful convictions, serious injury, death, major property damage, and the like.
OTOH, there are many fields where it is legal to do certain things, particular maintenence, with no license at all. I don't have to have a license to repair your deck or fix your toilet; granted, if I screw it up and your deck isn't up to code or your toilet floods your living room, you don't have many means of redress, other than suing me personally.
The problem is that the work done in these fields is not necessarily analagous to the work done by PC repair techs. Frankly, fixing a broken system is usually not rocket science; doing so with the minimal amount of work and data loss is something of an art, but most tech support guys fall back to the usual, reformat, reboot, and reinstall method if all else fails.
I don't think the government should be telling me whom I can and cannot pay to fix my computer (in my case, I fix the bloody thing myself), or my car for that matter. If I want to take it to my sister-in-law's best friend's teenage son and give him $20 to get XP working, that's my business. And if I want to get the thing fixed by someone who actually knows what the hell he's doing, and, perhaps, has all the mumble-mumble certifications to prove it, that's also my option.
Other than freedom of choice (in who fixes my PC), the other effect of regulation would be to price or lock out uncertified individuals, such as myself, from the market. Granted, I like my job as a software engineer. But if the economy continues down the crapper and I lose my job, it wouldn't be below my dignity to make some extra bread fixing computers. My 15 years+ of PC hardware and software knowledge certainly is worth something to someone. I shouldn't have to go blow several thousand dollars getting A+ and Microsloth Certified Ignoramious certificates to get a job.
I've worked with many engineers who had all those fancy certifications and many who did not. From what I can tell, they don't make a lick of difference. The only thing that really counts is knowledge (however it's acquired) and experience (and a healthy dose of intuition and luck). The worst thing is someone who can talk the talk and has the cert's but is fundamentally incompetent. Frankly, if I'm interviewing two guys, and one has an MSCE and the other claims several years of administering a Windows NT/2000 network, I'll probably consider them equally and ask them the same questions. I actually have more respect for the guy who's been debugging problems for the last couple years than someone who just passed some exam.
Finally, perhaps as a coup-de-gras of sorts, consider all those Cisco Certifications. As much as Cisco hypes them, you'd think that lots of Cisco employees would have them. Well, I used to work there, and guess what? They don't. Generally, the engineers there are quite unimpressed by anything other than a CCIE (of which there are only a couple thousand in the whole world). It's not about how many tests you can pass, it's about what you've actually done and what you can do.
The cert classes are a nice way to fill in some gaps in your existing knowledge or to get a jumpstart on a new technology, but, by and large, they don't mean dick.
I don't care if they are licensed, as that would only increase the cost of doing business, and cut out a lot of the smaller shops.
However, one should be insured for reasonable liability..
This goes for any industry as far as I'm concerned. My Auto mechanic isn't licensed, but his work IS guaranteed.
If they are incompetent they don't stay in business anyway. Sort of self-policing.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
My neighbor fixes cars out of his home for a living. He doesn't have a certification, but he's damn good at what he does. I trust him enough to work on my vehicles. And I don't see customers needing him to warranty his work - he does it right the first time - but they do come to him for all their maintanence and repair. And he's cheap. But I've seen plenty of these "certified" mechanics make serious mistakes (I know of one brake repair chain here in town that has left important parts like, oh, brake drums or pads off when they put a vehicle back together - many times) on cars they're being paid a ton of money to fix. The certification only means the mechanic has passed a written test. And if there's one mechanic with an ASE certification in one area, they can put the ASE sign on the shop. Certifications don't mean anything to a customer when they're waiting for a tow truck, or worse, an ambulance, due to a faulty repair.
As far as computer repairs go - I fix my own problems whenever possible. I also fix any problems that I have enough expertise for if friends or family call. I don't have a certification. As far as business goes - it's up to businesses to determine what standards work for them. If a company decides that it requires A+, MCSE, or any other certification from the computer repairman, that is their choice. The repairman can either have it or not do business with them. If a company wants to use someone that has no certification, but that they know is qualified, it's up to them. I've seen some people with A+ certs fresh out of school, and I wouldn't let them touch my computer. I also know people that have no formal training whatsoever who can fix anything they come across. Certifications mean nothing to a company if the certifed repairman screwed up the work. It's the customer's choice.
When I'm having a computer repaired, seeing certification credentials on the wall or on a business card doesn't mean crap to me. I don't even know what A+ is, honestly. I feel much better dealing with a manufacturer or repair shop that guarantees its work: "if we didn't fix what you paid us to fix, we'll make it right, with no additional charges."
Things go wrong in repair shops. Oversights happen. I can live with that, but when I discover such an oversight and all I get is some hostile introverted shop tech growling at me that "they fixed it, and if I want it looked at again it'll be an additional $35 bench fee," I get pissed off. This can happen even in "certified" shops.
I should not be able to hold a shop liable for my data. When I send a computer to Dell for repair, I'm required to remove the hard drive, RAM, etc. They still manage to fix the PC without any chance that they'll zap my drive or read my private documents. If law allowed suits based on data loss, or other semi-tangibles, we'd soon be signing releases or arbitration agreements before a shop would touch our PCs, since one adverse judgment could easily put a small shop out of business.
Be smart. Know the people you're trusting your gear to, and don't deal with them if they won't stand behind their work.
Here's a nice little article about the negative impact of licensing.
It's funny how the merits of a CS degree for programming are debated on slashdot, and this sort of suggestion gets any discussion at all. Come on now, you can teach the basics of computer repair to a twelve year old in a day or two. Car mechanics are expected to diagnose and fix component level problems.. No one extects a PC tech to do that any more.
After all...if the certifications were a *guarantee* that the tech would know what he was doing, wouldn't everyone already insist on hiring only certified techs?
If folks feel that hiring only certified technicians is beneficial to them, that's something they can already do. I don't see any benefit to forcing that potential extra cost on everyone.
-Russ
i think their should absolutely be a minimum set of credintials required. Many people are decieved by un-certified and un-qualified people. I run a tech service company that services small businesses and schools across the state, I also do some work on the west coast for a number of chrystler dealerships.
I deal with the incompetance of other "techs" almost daily. My customers have made descisions based on financial situations and they know that by spending less they get less, but still expect acceptable service which they do not receive by a lot of bull-**** computer companies.
just imagine the cost of replacing critical student records when an incompetant "tech" failed to follow proper procedures for backing up data on a server before a hardware upgrade. Or losing 100+ customer files at a car lot which could potentially cost millions.
plumbers, carpenters, electricians, hair stylist,etc,etc, must have certifications, logically so should computer techs.
I think that mandating certification in anything is total bs and should be branded so. What does any government have sticking their nose into what ANYONE does? If I want to hire noncertified people, I will damnit.
And don't hand me any shit about "But what about people's lives!". That is exactly what I'm talking about. Control of lives. If people want to purchase goods and services from noncertified people... let them. They may get better service or higher quality goods from certified shops, but that is all part of the free market.
Certification laws were lobbied by commie unionists who wanted to control the market of workers, making their pay go up so they wouldn't have to learn another trade that was more in demand. Fuckers are worse than farmers.
Here's the deal. I know my sh1t. I work as a programmer at a small development house, and we share offices with a small computer repair shop. Even though I'm a software guy with only 4 years of experience in dealing with hardware repair as well, I've learned a lot, and consider myself to be quite knowledgeable. As a matter of fact, I spend a good half of my time helping out the computer repair guys instead of coding because *they keep asing me for help on systems they don't know about*. And these are techs with supposedly over 10 years of experience. So I'm gonna go ahead and claim that I'm a good technician, knowledgeable and able.. however, I only have those 4 years of experience. Later this year, I'm going to be moving, and that's going to require me to quit this job and search for a new one. With just my 4 years of experience, I'm likely to not find anything. *That's* why i'm right now studying for the A+ (frankly, most of this is really basic stuff, anyone with a bit of spare time to study can get an A+ if they buy the right books without even needing to touch a puter), not because *I* beleive it will make me a better tech, but because employers definetly will.
"Two things are infinite: the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the first one." - Albert Einstein
the government has it's hands in enough of our lives how about they dont worry about it and then if you take your pc to a repair center and it dosnt work right dont pay them
Another way to look at this, if you are IBM or SUN or Cisco or any other manufacturer/service company, do you have the right to train your own people and set your own standards, or do your technicians have to pass some sort of test set up by a government bureaucrat (perhaps with the "guidance" of a competitor like Microsoft)? If Sun can fix Sun systems and IBM and others can fix IBM mainframes, why should the lowly PC be given a higher status?
And don't think for a minute it stops there. Once the government gets it's fingers in here, there will certainly be software "certification" for those who write code. Sure, Microsoft will still be free to put out system that crash regularly and to export jobs to lowest bidder countries, but an individual who can do the work on his own will be required to learn the Microsoft sales pitches and be able to present the Microsoft product line before he can be "certified" to do the work he is already making a living at.
I'd rather count on the market place to regulate the industry than bureaucrats. The market isn't perfect, but it's far better than the alternative. Consumers who hire idiots should not be an excuse to take away good people's right to earn a living.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
I'd like to see some sort of multi-tiered credential on a per-technology basis. Sort of like D&D and other role playing games.
So I might be certified as a 3rd level Apache admin, for instance. Your level would be tied to some sort of points system. Some certifying authority (not necessarily the government) or authorities would be in charge of determining the criteria for assigning points as well as the actual awarding of points.
Think about it, most tech types are already familiar with this type of system from their game playing days so it would be an easy transition. It would also tie my qualifications to a number that job recruiters and hiring managers would have an easy time dealing with.
Four fifths of all our troubles in this life would disappear if we would just sit down and keep still. -C. Coolidge
Dont give the government any stupid ideas. I can
see an MCSE or something as being required to get a job in the tech field.. That is asinine. I wouldnt hire anybody who is mcse, a+ whatever
anyway because a lot of the stuff they learned
is wrong.
CompUSA makes all of their techs get A+ certified within a certain amount of time, or the tech is gone.
How much has changed in the hair care world in the last 10 years? How much have automobiles changed in the last 10 years? Now compare that to how much has changed in the field of computers in the last 10 years. Notice the several orders of magnitude difference beating you over the head with a big stick.
By the time a beaurocrat gets their ass off of their head long enough to attempt to regulate computer repair, everything they've tried to do by regulating it will be worthless and obsolete.
blind regulation is bad. reputation is good.
I got 71% on the first test in 25min and 91% on the second part in under 10min... it was insulting.
I *really* don't think there's a difference between guy A who just went to school to get his A+ and Guy B who works at the computer store fixing computers without an A+.
Generally do work at home. Some hairdressers do, but not many that get high customer volume
A lot of techies (and good ones) work from home, such a requirement could very well kill their business. All things considered, if a business kills a computer - they should replace it. If there's very valuable data on it, the customer should notify them beforehand and they can weight the risks.
On the other note: I recently sent my semi-computer-illiterate grandparents to pick up a new fan for their old Pentium 200 from the local Future Shop. They told the main tech they had a Pentium 200 ($5 heatsink+fan combo), and were given a huge heatsink+fan combo ($25) for an Althon XP/P3/P4. Being idiots, they decided to try installing it themselves, and ended up damaging capacitors near the CPU socket with the oversized heatsink. Apparently Future Shop has no liability in this, they hire idiots for techs who can't read that a heatsink is for a Socket A/370 (Athlon/P4) mainboard.
My point? If major businesses were required to hire at least semi-competetent techs, it would be better. But by the same reasoning I am guessing that people reading this article (who didn't already know of FS's tech crappiness) will keep this in mind when getting PC work/parts from there. Word of mouth is a big factor in a PC business... and a bad reputation as a computer dealer can sink you very fast sometimes.
I don't think having the certification proves that you know more than the guy next to you who doesn't have the certification. Being certified does not equal having years of experience. That said, I don't agree that all certified people are morons as some people in this thread are saying. I do agree that many people who have no real know-how but have lots of money run out and get certifications just to have them. And that's unfortunate because it makes the rest of "us" (those of us who know our stuff) look bad. But the same thing has been happening for years. A high school diploma used to be optional and you would still be able to land a decent paying job as long as you knew what you were doing. My dad never graduated high school and made over 60 grand a year working at Caterpillar as an electrician. He knew how to do his job and back then, that was all that mattered. But now - a 4 year college degree barely qualifies you for 25k a year and lower management.
I'm getting me a butt-load of stock in that company. You know, the one that Sally Struthers says I can get a degree from.
Or was that the one that feed the starving children?
Can't remember, oh wait
1) Starving Children
B) Sally Struthers
III) Degree In PC Repair
Four) Profit
the current piss-poor economy has acted like regulation. i have seen many a wanna-be, dishonest middle man or liar driven out of business, because they cannot get cash when the goods are fake. lets face it, there are scammers out there that say they'll hand out the stars and the moon on a PC, but that was the nature of the boom times too. people are more wary today, ever so slightly more educated (no browser?? ok, just click the big blue E) and not in the same frantic state of mind that the boom created.
in short. the industry is self-regulated and should stay that way. keeping barriers of entry (in the fiscal world) low serves to draw more people into the field. the barriers of entry right now are only time and brains. lets keep it that way.
the only person served by your regulation would be established businesses, and that is what creates stagnation and problems.
"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." - Rahm Emanuel
I think my degree from an accredited University is good enough. If you couple that with my experience as a software engineer I don't think I should have to provide any more qualifications.
If someone doesn't want to hire me they don't have to.
However, if it were in my best interest to get something like a PE (Professional Engineer) certification I would probably do so. I guess it just isn't right now.
How long had there been automechanics and hairdressers before either industry was regulated?
How long have people been repairing home PCs? (Maybe 20 years?)
[Home] Computing's still a very young industry. A lot of the experience is still self taught, rather than learned on courses (though it's shifting), much like with cars in their early days.
While it wouldn't suprise me in the least to see legally required certifications around the centenary of the home PC, just like we see for the centenary of the car, does every other industry get regulated this quickly either?
I do not mean to discount statements about potential safety problems with automobiles. However, I work in healthcare IT and I take my job VERY seriously. It is not inconceivable that if I do not do my job correctly, then the wrong information can be given about a patient causing the wrong treatment. One of our products is considered a "medical device" which requires safety notices along with registering with the FDA.
I have to follow ISO standards, follow written procedures as well record my training. We record and archive every keystroke that we make on a hospital server. Everything is checked and double checked.
Would you want your child to be treated with the wrong medical information?
That is just healthcare. What about airliner systems? You think a bad break job on a Mazda will cause problems? What about a computer system failure on a 747 or a downed control tower. (Yes, I know there are redundant systems, but consider what would happen if they all went down.)
I don't know about "government licensing", but a malfunctioning computer system can cause tremendous damage to a person's safety. If you don't think that they can, then you are just playing games or writing reports for school.
I think mandatory certification for PC repair services would be the kiss of death to affordable quality service. The fact that a business person doesn't request several bids, or, get references for a likely contender for a job, should not be the premise upon which licensing mandates are instituted. That would only reward lazy business owners/managers, and reward easy fixes.
The fact that a person can afford to take a test to get certification doesn't say squat about that person's ability to solve problems requiring critical reasoning or independent thought. I would rather hire someone based on his or her reputation for having their shit together and getting the job done right the first time. And, on the flip side, I would like to think that my own reputation spoke more highly for me than having any certification a well-trained chimp might get its hands on, given said chimp's ability to pay for it.
I tend to be nominally liberal, but in such a case as this, I am all for unregulated commerce. Dumbshits who fuck up will not be in business for long. Honest people with their act together will find their isn't enough time in the day to accept all requests for service.
Now, when it comes to coding software, I am in favor of regulation, especially for operating systems coders. but then, that is another kettle of fish entirely...
Mmmmmm... Bold, yet refreshing!
I think not. Sure they don't mean you know anything. Everybody has meet a MCSE who is utterly clueless, but they do help your resume move to the top of the stack.
Let's be honest most people only get certifications to get a better job. That and your employer pays you to get one.
Blah blah blah! Ayn Rand! Blah blah blah! Reference to auto mechanics, which is ironic in that I don't have the first idea what actually goes on in an internal combustion engine! Never heard of such nonsense! Those who deny Time Cube are educated stupid! Blah blah blah!
In summary, my field is the last bastion of de-facto slavery, and I will die to preserve my right to be treated like a disposable cog. Up the free market! BTW, please hire me!
although they show competance, they don't really mean crap when working in a Computer Repair dept.
When I worked at CompUSA - although I had an A+ certification already - most of the problems were specific system issues that Compaq or Pacbell new about. ie: Compaq had a flaw in their X series MB's that caused cd drives to go out - so all those systems would come in with people complaining about their cd-rom not working and we simply order the new MB and cdrom and replace them - that used about 1% of the information covered in the A+ Exam Cram.
The other common issues were people who had tried to instal Win X over Win X and turned the poweroff halfway through and needed their system restored.
Ave Molech Setting
hey, dickhead.
I WORK for that airline... you know, "that one in FL." The problem was a contractor didn't properly label hazmet put in the hold.
know what the fuck you're talking about before you start the slander, please.
Problem is there is no equivalent of the PE for CS people.
I'm unsure how well the PE would actually speak to a persons software engineering skill as it currently stands.
"They" are currently working on a Profession Software Engineer ( or whatever it is called ) cert though.
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
I usually have the opposite reaction to people with certificates, not that this is everyone but in most cases I find that those who have A+ and Network+ certificates have them to get a job, not because they are good at their job. Just having those certificates does not make you a good tech, it just means you can take a test.
As someone mentioned earlier, the A+ Operating Systems test no longer has any Windows 3.1 questions, and its command line questions are either related to DOS in Win9x, or to the commands in Windows 2000.
Anyone who passes these tests is definately qualified to repair my computer running my favorite flavor of *BSD or Linux!
What in the world does the operating system have to do with repairing the physical computer? If the floppy drive is hosed, replace it. If you want a DVD-RW drive installed, not a problem. Of course, drivers and compatability are another story, but physical installation shouldn't be an issue.
While I wouldn't let the average A+ Certified technician loose on my Linux installation, they're probably quite capable of fixing most hardware problems you might have. And you can always require them to be Linux+ certified if you need help with that, but since that's aimed at techies with 6 months of experience, I'm not sure that would be your best option either.
At this point, since a number (but not all) of the IT certifications out there can be earned with a majority of studying and minimal hands-on experience, I don't think requiring certifications in the industry is going to do anything more than further boost the popularity of those certifications. We've all heard the horror stories about NT MCSE's who couldn't make a boot floppy.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi
Since when did a mechanic need certification to work on your car? Sure, I was a ASE Certified Master tech (at age 19) but I did it for pride. Shops themselves must be certified for safety and things like that but to my knowledge, there is no license for auto mechanics. Of course, your state may vary....
not an evaluation of whether the automechanic or hairdresser or teacher can do the job. Requirements to pass whatever test are minimal... it's all about the money the govt receives.
Bad idea to invite government to regulate every aspect of our lives. The computer user takes some responsibility for the work done, by virtue of getting referrals in advance. Low skills should lead to no business... just by simple market forces.
However, this is not the case with computers, given the wide variation in platforms AND software. Keeping a tech current just to satisfy "legal" requirements would take 100% of the tech's available time.
I fail to see what's so bad about having an MCSE. Apparently it's the "everyone remotely associated with Microsoft is evil" fringe lunacy that perpetuates itself on Slashdot.
Hey, I'm only as liable as the EULA of the software I install. :P
Well, if auto mechanics had good test-taking skills, they wouldn't be auto mechanics.
(Of course you can say the same thing for PC repair.)
Don't go to incompetent fools in search of a deal.
Remember, You are unique...just like everyone else.
I only display my certifications because:
1.) I'm too lazy to go out and buy frames to put pictures on the walls in my office.
2.) It gives me more credibility when I am insulting other employees for their lack of intelligence and inability to pass the same tests which I passed without studying even after studying for 3 months.
3.) I'm an arrogant prick, and I like to rub my certifications in the faces of other employees.
A+ didn't use to be a useless cert. when it first came out about 10 years ago it was pretty funny. i worked for a regional computer dealership that employed about 50 technical people. about half didn't pass the A+ on the first try and most of the rest were scoring in the 70s. we had people that got less than %50 on the *Customer Service* section (which was pretty much don't call the custumer an idiot...)
having achieved novell and ms and and cisco certs (several certs over several years) it's worth saying that the issuer has to want the cert to have value. novell *really* put a lot of effort into to classes and *tests* to make the netware 3 and 4 certs very meaningful. they kinda dropped the ball on netware 5. i think that the first batch of mcses (3.5x) were stronger than the 4.0 mcses because of the classes and tests and the 2000 mcse program appears to me to be very weak. ms at one point stated that they wanted a bunch of mcses in the field. haven't done enough cisco to rate them, except that i've heard that the CCIE is a strong cert.
the point of any certifcation is that you've learned enough to understand foundational materials. you can't learn it all when you go to that class but you can learn enough so that you are sound to build upon. novell was excellent on that concept!
eric
The real reason hair stylists are required to have licenses is to prevent competition -- if too many people are going into the business, the powers that be (who are almost always shop owners) can just make the entry a little tougher. Don't think tougher means more qualified, either, it just means that the test is only given on the second full moon of the month and the fee is doubled.
Licensing boards almost always end up being run by the ones being licensed because they are the only ones interested enough to do the job. It doesn't take long for such licensing to become a barrier to entry rather than a protection for the consumer.
I think certification of computer service technicians would be great if there were vendor neutral certifications available that were accepted as industry standard.
The problem is that most computer certifications these days are created by the vendors themselves as a way of both generating additional revenue as well as bolstering the marketing power of their products.
...since you are apparently plastered. He was referring to the cost of a Wild Turkey vs. a Bud Light.
I am glad to hear your hair dresser is certified.
There is no reason to certify a board jockey, (someone who diagnoses.. problem with the vid card.. swap vid card) thats just stupid for someone who isn't going to make squat to have to go and get cert the company isn't going to pay for.
I was a tech when I was a kid.. (going to college) and I was good. But never got over $9.00/hr, and now that I am a network engineer trying to get a company that already invests $70,000+ in my salary to send me to training for a CCIE is impossible.. THINK about it for that little board jock. His company isn't going to pay for anything.
Now if you are on the other hand a component level tech, (and really there isn't much need in that any more with motherboards under $200) then sure I would like to see you can run an osciloscope and a soldering iron.
Just another excuse for some ripoff school agency to have another cert they can make money off of so some poor kid can pay a months salary to get the stupid cert.
To the guy who says.... but my data..... While its true the shop should not cause harm to something that isn't broke.. your data is completely your concern. I don't do backups either except for my most important data, but if my HD crashed, (and oh it has in the past... a LOT) then its my fault for not having the data backed up.
Just three more hours seapeople and you can finally take me away from this crappy God Damned planet full of hippies
I passed both portions of the test in under 30 minutes, and it was too damn easy because I know computers, but we can't assume that because it is easy for us, it is easy, period.
nothing like goverment involvement to totally stagnate a sector. Once your local repair shop is certified to fix your win3.11 box, in another five to ten years you should be able to bring your 98 machine in to get looked at.
slashdot, news for crazed liberal socialist zealots
it seems that the most flexible answer is what's already out there: show your credentials and anyone who wants the quality work done will come to you and pay a little extra to have it done right. but don't tell me that i can't have someone put in something simple on the cheap because they don't have a government-mandated certification.
for protection, if you want to ensure that the job is done right then get a contract and hold the person to it.
as for this: "I think it might cut down on the riff-raff and wannabes" how would you handle journeymen just trying to get started in the industry. look at any in an industry that gets regulated this way and you find two things:
1. competition goes down
2. prices go up
3. new people have a hard time breaking into the business because of the high cost of entry.
instead of ensuring computer services quality lets leave the government to what it's good at - ensure the quality of the employees at the post office and the airports.
Imagine that, by law, an image of your hard drive must be sent to the government, your DNA swabbed from your input devices, and bugs/keyloggers routineley installed if they find any sign of terrorist or criminal activities or intentions....
Such as:
Naturally, copies of your drive image will always be sent immediateley to the proper authorities for America's protection.
As we all know, no Saudi funded terrorist group could even dream of affording it's own bunch of nutbars to read up on some HOWTOs and sort out their own computers.
Have A Nice Day!(tm)
Ali
Ph33r m3!!!
Automobiles are expensive and generally need to be repaired. If you want to regulate the repairing of PCs, you would be wasting your time. PCs cost next to nothing and are rarely worth the money to repair, except in specific circumstances. In addition, the likelihood of a mis-repair on a PC is not likely to physically injure someone. Also, data protection, if you consider loss of it as an injury, shouldn't be considered in the process. Who is to say the accountability for a customer's data is in the hands of the repairman or the hands of the customer (in terms of being responsible and making back-ups)?
If there is any kind of certification, then it should be done as it is done now: through industry or proprietary certs and respectable experience. It would make sense, if you had two equal candidates (companies or consultants) who wanted to repair your million-buck Sun boxes, to choose a person or company that is 'certified' than one that is not. Is that a guaruntee? No, but niether is a federally issued license. Sure, accountability might be in place, but that sure doesn't mean a whole lot if the guy can't do your particular job right the first time.
When I worked for DEC they had a rule, "A+ or your ass is gone."
Judging by the fact that DEC stock now trades under HP's ticker symbol (DEC -> Compaq -> HP), I would think long and hard before looking to their more asinine management policies as being a Good Thing.
--
I Hit the Karma Cap, and All I Got Was This Lousy
So how is compulsory certification going to solve the problem of the shonky dealer? If you're going to be dishonest, does having an A+ certification mean anything to the client?
Having the required certification might give them a false sense of security, sure, but certification doesn't mean you're necessarily any more honest or competent than the next guy.
To get a (new) job, certs come in real handy, too. Some employers (prospective or otherwise) may not care about how long you've done something, or if you've been in the field forever, but if you have the cred to "prove it."
This is a great example of the worst sort of management-propagated absurd hiring practices. This sort of thing ensures that the lowest common denominator ("Yippee! I took a class at community college and got my MCSE!") continue to be hired over the more talented people in the field who just don't give a fcuk and/or would feel violated paying Microsoft $6,000 to take a test which gives you a certification that is essentially an advertisement for Microsoft products. I'd rather hire an uncertified wrench monkey and/or crazy perl coder over a moron who thinks he or she is "tha bomb" because someone showed them how to use multimode console.
1. Cars are still far more expensive items. For most people, a car is the most expensive item they own (houses are a very close second). You can pay as much for a non-ridiculous repair on a car as your entire computer, software library, and home network cost.
2. Safety is a critical feature of a car. Safety is an almost unknown feature in a home computer. Certifying mechanics to bleed brakes saves lives. Certifying techs to configure IP addresses is a waste of eighty bucks.
I realize that nobody is going to read comment #500 on this busy story, but here goes:
Certification in the computer industry is a waste of time, MOSTLY (with a few exceptions -- maybe general security practices, TCP/IP stuff, could be certified) It matters so little to me that the guy working on my computer has a piece of paper that says he took a test. Tests do not matter doodly-squat compared to hands-on experience.
True story: Former network admin here, MCSE, was backing up Exchange as though it was just another file. He never got priv.edb and pub.edb because (duh) Exchange keeps a lock on those babies. End result: Big Owie! (as the Gungans say). Paper tiger got burned. Me, with no cert but a clue, got his job.
One of the BEST things about the tech field is that it is relatively free from unions, guilds, and various other anti-competitive exclusionary practices. We need to keep it taht way. My highest-paid buddy only has a H.S. diploma, and he runs major web sites for big time companies. He didn't get hired because of some stupid piece of paper, but because he can get the job done.
Isn't that refreshing? We in the tech field have a self-sufficiency gene. We are all adults here, unlike teachers or policemen or the guy who bags your groceries at the Safeway -- we don't need a corrupt union to "watch out for our best interests" because we already know what our own best interests are! (href: all I wanted was a pepsi!)
Now, I wouldn't hold it against somebody that they had a tech certification. But it's much less important than their people skills, etc.
ANd how many of us haven't been ripped off at ASE-certified mechanics?
Okay, so I work on Windows systems, but it's obvious to me (and to my employer after they got burned) that MCSE and such is really all about marketing. It's supposed to demonstrate that MS has an army of highly-trained specialists who can help your organization. But it's crap, and we all know it.
Another example: a guy from Dell was here the other day to replace a failed HDD (in the Exchange server, as it turns out. God bless RAID). It took him like two hours to figure out that he needed to change the SCSI ID on the new HD. This guy was certified, but he had never heard of a SCSI ID? That's so pathetic.
If we are going to have certs, at least give me a way to file a complaint against the tech who takes two hours replacing a HDD in my mission-critical email server because he doesn't know what a SCSI ID is. Something like the Bar Association for lawyers. But I can already see where that would go: Right into the Llinux vs. Windows Flame Pit From Hell.
That's why those of us with open minds and a clue don't need any damn certs. We can stand on the merits of what we know, thank you very much.
I do a fair share of cleaning up after fly-by-night companies/consultants/johnny's-14-year-old nephew-that-really-knows-computers. It costs a lot of the local businesses serious money to replace lost data and sub-standard equipment.
So why are you complaining? The fact that you're trusted to clean up these mistakes shows that you evidently have the experience/credentials/word-of-mouth-reputation that these fly-by-nighters, consultants, and nephews lack. On your part, you'd make less money if it weren't for two things:
1) Some of your customers were at one point careless with their money.
2) You have something better to offer than their previous servicefolks. Something that allows you to charge more, and forces them to either discount or get Darwinized out of business.
And on the part of your clients, they gain the benefit of wisdom (good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement). Plus, it is worth the money they pay you to have you around to clean up their mistakes.
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.
You can vist the System Administrators Guild at sageweb.sage.org
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
To hell with that! How about certifications for reproduction? That's what I want.
My Ass hurts.
The nice thing about the 2 examples of certification you cite are that they are extreamly static, from a skill set point of view.
Not to mention, certification is ZERO gaurantee you are actually going to get what you expect... The last time I used a CERTIFIED mechanic to work on my car, they tried to tell me I was going to need over $500 dollars worth of work + a new battery! (the mechanic in question was a 15 year ASA Mechanic)... Since I already new exactly what was wrong with the car, I told them they were nuts, and told them why... both his shop manager and the mechanic insisted they were correct in their diagnosis, and proceded to flaunt their certs at me...
I then went, skined up my nuckles a little bit, and fixed the loose nut on the alternator of the car, PUSH started the car, and drove off, a year later, when I sold the car, it still had the same battery and still worked perfectly...
Certs for PCs are even MORE worthless, IMHO, because it simply means that the person in possesion of it managed to pass some tests that may or may not have anything to do with your type of setup, and doesn't necessarily bother to test if the person who is applying for the cert actually has the troubleshooting aptitude necessary to actually FIX a problem.
Not to mention the fact that anyone with a cert would need to re-cert on a very VERY regular basis, to keep current with the latest and greatest tech... Of course, that doesn't help you if the person with their newly minted Piece of Paper tryes to work on a 386 running win3.1 that has worked fine for someone for the last 8 years, no need to upgrade now!
The whole point of computers and engineers is to make things SIMPLER. Certifications bring a great deal of complication to the process of servicing existing systems.
As always, the best way to avoid getting screwed, is to get educated! If you are one of those folks who doesn't know much about PCs/Networks, does the person selling you one seem to take an interest in informing you why it's necessary to buy what you are buying? Does he back it up with demonstrations, facts, or even glossys? If so, you are probably not going to get ripped off. But if he relies ONLY on a Certification of some type (as an excuse that he knows, and you should just TRUST him), I would run away, and run away fast.
You have met someone who feels you are too stupid for him to bother explaining why he is doing what he is doing with your money, doesn't respect you as a customer, and probably is going to rip you off if he gets the feeling he can!
Certs are bad, MMMkkk?
Questionnaire:
1) How happy have you, your friends, and your relatives been with licensed auto mechanics in the past?
2) How happy have you, your friends, and your relatives been with licensed hairdressers in the past?
3) Do you now think government licensing has anything to do with customer satisfaction?
11*43+456^2
First, I think those state licenses are more to limit people coming into the profession, i.e. just one more hurdle, and provide a way for insurance companies to cover their rears. Second, many of the certifications that exist now are devalued by all these "boot camps" where someone learns enough useless knowledge to pass the test and then forgets it a week later.
That's gotta fit into your schema somewhere
It had better be easy for anyone who touches my computer. I don't want these "hopeless cases" working on my computer.
-Chris
It's funny how the folks in a profession really want mandatory certification, and the rest of us don't care. Of course, what this means is that there are a lot of "yes" calls to legislators, and few "no" ones.
A few years later, when the certification is required, the legislators and the folks in the field are richer (because certification can only limit the competition). While I'm sure there are plenty of good-hearted folks who want mandatory certification, the rest of us shouldn't forget that it confers some of the benefits of a monopoly on the Chosen Ones.
Voluntary certification, on the other hand, has the benefit of enriching mainly the certifiers -- but it's a happy springboard for making it mandatory, and once again Peter (the public) is robbed to pay Paul (the Certified).
You might object that anyone can get the certification, after a while. Um, no. The Certified, after a time, notice that they paid all this money and went to all this trouble, and the "other" folks are still entering the profession. We can't have that! And so artificial limits, subtle or blatant, are put on the number of newly certified folks. The ones already certified, of course, are grandfathered in.
This has happened a lot folks -- from Doctors to Social Workers to Hairdressers (!) to New York City Cabdrivers.
Don't be fooled by it -- in the end, the public pays if a monopoly (mandatory certification) is granted.
By the way, there are always good-sounding reasons to ask for certification, but they tend to be confused. If the certifying authority offered to pay for the mistakes made by those they certified, that might be worth something -- but that's not what the Certifiers normally advocate. It would be a service to the public rather than one more artificial trough with room for only so many snouts.
sure, I'm all for this except one small reason, the computer certification process is an industry in itself. Most computer techs simply cannot afford to get certified. Not to mention, that I fix the computers of most of the certified people I know. Half of my customers are MCSEs. :) I do like the idea of regulations. certain things are already in regulation such as if a pc tech finds kiddie porn on a customer's pc, they are obligated to report it to authorities.
They're using their grammar skills there.
After having worked all the way from grunt to manger in the IT world, I would have to say that there is no such thing as an expert. A lot of this has to do with marketroids (as in, people who are good at selling themselves even if they have no true ability) coming up with ways to make themselves appear to have more value. In reality, I've found that the most knowledgable people in the IT world are uncertified and in a lot of cases don't even have a computer science degree. I've also seen lots of "experts" who don't know a damn thing, but are able to convince others that they know everything. Two examples based on actual people I know:
1. "Dan": He dresses pretty well and fits into the conservative mold. Khakis, and a casual dress shirt. Maybe a tie on some days. He only runs the "latest and greatest" at home. Mostly Microsoft, but has toyed with Linux and BSD a bit. Kind of idolizes Bill Gates. He went to a good private college and got an MBA. He is an MCSE now and makes sure everyone knows about it as well as some of his other "qualifications". He's moved from one company to the next commanding between a $60,000 and $170,000 a year salary. But... HE DOESN'T ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING!!! Most of his time, he convinces the execs that he works with to outsource the work HE'S supposed to be doing! He is moderately knowledgable with regard to computers, but he doesn't have the D.I.Y. ethic. Instead he knows lots of other people who can do his work for him. (I used to be one of them) The only time he will lift a finger to do any work is when he is doing something for himself. He is NOT a computer "expert", he is a salesman of himself!
2. "John": John wasn't a CS major. He was actually in Communications (Audio production, like myself). When he was done with school, he went to work in a warehouse loading boxes on trucks. He had a pretty difficult time finding a decent job for a while. He worked through several temp agencies too and the jobs all sucked. Eventually, he got a job working at a company that managed insurance DBs. He befriended the admin there and managed to move through a handful of positions until the company folded. He then got a job working as an admin for a non-profit (with a little help from a friend) as their assistant admin. When the admin departed, he was promoted to admin himself. He runs a Windows NT based network and I have to say it's MUCH better run than most corporate networks. All of the Windows systems are always kept up to date on all the latest patches from M$, the latest virus defs and he is constantly working out better scripts to make things more automated. He has recently started exploring Linux as well. Sure... he doesn't command the salary that "Dan" does, but he has more ability than "Dan". "John" is also an MCSE, but he got it much later than "Dan" and kind of spurns it because he feels that most of his knowledge is better measured by what he does than a piece of paper.
"John" is certainly more of an expert than "Dan" in terms of computer knowledge, but you wouldn't guess that at first glance if you heard the things people say about both of them. Your assumption would be that "Dan" is the expert. Well... "Dan" is going to wind up costing you a lot more than "John" and the quality of "Dan's" "work" is dubious.
I myself have a great reputation where I work for being "the guy that can fix everything and do it without breaking a sweat". I also have an MCSE, but I really don't care. I only got it to prove how easy it is to get one. I had the ability well before I had the paper.
The short of it:
"There are no experts. There are only those who know, and those who don't. Paper isn't going to change that in any way."
Un-news
Your point is well taken, but imagine a world where Pfizer and GlaxoKlineSmith decide who gets certified. That's where the world is headed with IT certifications - there is no FDA of computers, and if there was, it would be controlled by special interests like Microsoft and Disney.
Even if you have "certified" support from a company like Microsoft (or Red Hat or whatever) they still aren't particularly accountable -- they're perfectly happy to tell you "too bad" or "it's your fault" when their software crashes and you lose data.
Microsoft uses their customer base to support the claim that they aren't evil, but there's lots of dispute.
But to go back to the analogy someone made about mechanics, I'm more likely to go to a mechanic recommended to me by a friend than one I find in the phone book. I never wanted to use customer satisfaction as a means of advertising or justification, only that it is sufficient for my own self-reliance.
Also, if you have a reputation for fixing problems, what difference does it make if you backed up their software and reinstalled the OS versus going into the registry and fixing the problem manually. Aside from the fact that if you choose the first route too often you'll lose your mind.
I'm not exactly sure where you are from, but in the state of Maryland, you don't need a license to be an auto mechanic. Sure the certification paper work makes you look better, but it's not required. I work at a dealership and one of the technicians here was a lot attendant 6 months ago. The only prior automotive work he had ever done was oil changes and installing a fat muffler on his Honda. But on a daily basis he replaces brake, suspension, and air bag components. Can we be held liable if he screws somtething up? Sure. Does the state of Maryland say he has to be certified in any way? Nope.
Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a Q-Tip. - Homer Simpson
Having spent younger years in the repair industry and since then having paid many people for repair on various items, I have reach the conclusion that having certification has nothing to do with the ability to perform the work. I am not a certified network engineer but have found myself in a position several times in different companies that the certified network administrator was unable to perform the work but had to rely on me to help them understand what needed to be done and how to do it. So, research on the quality of service and capabilities of prospective employees is far more important than relying on certifications.
As long as it takes into account a person's portfolio
:)
I currently am a Graphic Designer (still working and never laid off) that has met way too many people who say "I'm a graphic designer too - look at these stickers I made using this word template".... it's people like that - that make it harder for those of us qualified to get a job to find jobs.
The Adobe certifications are decent, but they don't really look at design concepts, instead they are more of if you can find where the filter menu is and if you know how to USE the program.
USING a program and DESIGNING art is VERY DIFFERENT and it takes quite a bit more to come up with an original marketing idea for a product than just knowing how to take a picture and run filters in photoshop on it.
Heres a hint for all you wanna be graphic designers - this is what steps I take to create a package
1) Research who I am marketing too or who "they" want me to market too as well as who I am doing this for is important - just because a nude car wash will sell doesn't mean the church your working for will like that idea
2) Freehand draw out ideas and slogans (i feel my drawings are shitty compared to some but even still it gives a base to start from)
3) Then I go to the computer and start recreating or scanning - tracing - coloring - touchup etc...
4) I take it to my boss and he puts in his $5 worth - then I go back to step 3 and after that i'm done with that project.
GOOD Design takes time - not a few seconds filling out a word template.
Ave Molech Setting
There is no need for having a lic to repair home pc systems. This is simple as cake to do with the way pcs are built in a modular fashion.
When I was in high school, I worked sales/cash at at a local computer store.
I am not sure of the details, but the store's liability insurance required that the computer technican's have a private certification (e.g A+), or have a community college diploma as a computer technican.
I remember that I was free try help with the backload of repairs/installations if the techs were present, but if they weren't arounds (e.g evenings) we were forbidden to even go in the room.
If somebody sued us. Wouldn't look to good for the store's case if a High school kid was "responsible". Even though we all know, that retail PC repair has been mastered by many of a young age.
David, that's an excelent post. You got all the points I wanted to make.
But I'll chime in anyway, with a real-world example that's a little closer to home for some of the Slashdot readers.
Change the question to:
Does the Computer Programming field need to be regulated?
A couple decades ago this question was being asked seriously. A private organization was set up to create a certification for computer programmers. The subtext appeared to be lobbying for laws banning programming for money by anyone who didn't have one of their certifications. Think of an "American Bar Association" for programmers. (I thought the original certification was called the Certified Data Professional or CDP, but see below.)
Of course the certification required extensive knowlege of the languages of the time. Such languages as Cobol and JCL.
This would be convenient for someone in a large corporation's personnel department when hiring for the accounting departments IT operation. (Except when setting salary, of course, since the shortage of "qualified" programmers would drive up the price.)
But can you IMAGINE what effect such a law would have had on the computing revolution?
Would there even BE a Unix, an Apple OS, a Linux, a gnu project, emacs, gcc, Perl, Bison, Java, C++, etc. if everyone had to learn Cobol and enough other stuff to do accounting apps, and get a cert, before they could be paid to hack in C or sell any software they'd written?
====
Interestingly, what appears to be the same organization is still around, as a private-enterprise certification vendor. The web site says its current offering is "Certified Computing Professional" (CCP), and that it still maintains earlier certifications called "Certified Data Processor" (CDP), "Certified Systems Professional" (CSP) and "Certified Computer Programmer" (another CCP).
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
See above!
nm
In a capitalist economy, businesses compete to provide a quality product or service at the lowest price. The companies that provide bad service will shape up or go out of business. The companies that provide good service, either by extensive training of employees or innovative solutions to improve service, will make more money.
If you introduce regulations, this upsets basic competition by placing rules that restrict businesses' ability and motivation to innovate and compete. By adding government regulations, you would actually make service worse. If you doubt this, consider: Post Office vs FedEx, Private School vs Public School, Public Transportation vs Private, etc. In almost every case, government intervention causes a worse service or product. As someone pointed out, years of regulation have done little to improve the auto industry, utilities, etc. While you may argue restaraunts are safer, you should note that people still get food poisoning, and even good establishments regularly fail inspections.
Basic laws preventing fraud, false advertising, etc. protect the consumer from the things you mentioned already, while allowing businesses to innovate. In addition, voluntary certification and training allow businesses to improve their service on their own, and thus compete.
Finally, in cases where legal recourse isn't practical, consumer advocacy groups, such as the Better Business Bureau give you a powerful voice in the free market, without looking to "big government" to solve your problems.
This system has worked pretty good for a few hundred years. I don't see why people are all of the sudden so intent on screwing it up.
Let the buyer beware.
"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
It's a troll...
Just read some of the discussion above.
(yes this is a joke)
would we need to get recertified every time Moore's Law revolves? or when M$ decides to release a new OS version.. what about the whole Unix field which takes a bit more skill due to the lack of "official" support..
First, you don't need to be licensed to be an auto mechanic. Those certifications the mechanic has up are there to show off. Whether they mean anything depends on the certificate and who issued it, but none of them are required to work on cars. Of course people do make decisions based on them (eg. not taking their new car to a mechanic who doesn't have a certification from the car's maker).
Second, the certificates for hairdressers and such have nothing do to with how well they do their jobs. The certifications are about making sure the certified isn't a hazard to the public (the customers). The certificate says your hairdresser knows and follows the rules about cleanliness of the tools and such, but whether they can cut your hair without butchering it is outside the scope of the certification.
Given those two things, there's not much parallel in the parallels the article's author is drawing. Myself, I think certification would be good, but only if it concentrated on practical tests (ie. no questions to answer, your test is to be given a bench and a broken PC and you have to fix it while an instructor grades you on whether you followed anti-static and other safety procedures, whether the work was done right and (most importantly) whether the PC actually worked when you were done).
BOB: Hi, I'm the guy who called about fixing your network for $20/hour.
FRED: What's your certifications?
BOB: I built my family's network, my mom's computer, my dad's --
FRED: No, no, your technical certifications.
BOB: I don't have any.
FRED: Why not?
BOB: Well, they're a good thing to have, but I'd rather have some work experience first.
FRED: Then I can't hire you.
BOB: You can't hire me because I don't have work experience?
FRED: No, I can't hire you because you don't have technical certifications.
BOB: How do I get those?
FRED: You get work experience and --
BOB: But you won't hire me so I can get work experience!
FRED: Don't get angry. Holding technical certifications is the LAW.
BOB: The LAW?
FRED: Yes, in capital letters too.
BOB: I noticed. So, I have to get techincal certification without experience?
FRED: Yes, but it's easy. You take a few weeks' worth courses and pass some multiple choice tests.
BOB: That's it?
FRED: Yeah.
BOB: So even if I'm under-qualified to work on your computers, you'll hire me as long as I'm good at passing multiple choice tests.
FRED: You got it. That's how I hired my whole team.
BOB: What are they like?
FRED: I don't know. I keep having to send them back for more classes because they can't keep my system up.
BOB: What are you running?
FRED: Windows.
BOB: Why Windows? Why not BSD or Linux?
FRED: They don't have certifications that go with them, do they?
BOB: Well, not all of them do but --
FRED: Then why should I? I've got great tech support from Microsoft, certified people --
BOB: And a crappy network.
FRED: Don't get angry. Just run along and go pass a test. Then come back.
BOB: I'll charge more if I have certifications, you know.
FRED: Well, you get what you pay for!
BOB: So, you're saying that you'd rather I come back knowing pretty much what I know now and charging you more because I have a few letters after my name?
FRED: Yes. That way, when you screw up, I can cover my *ss by proving that you were certified to begin with.
BOB: I get it now. Part of that LAW thing.
FRED: Yes. With capitals.
BOB: Right. By the way, your servers are running NetBIOS, right?
FRED: Probably, why?
BOB: If I have insomnia tonight, I might want to play with some old junk. Be seeing you.
Free software, not Iraq, because Bill Gates is evil & Saddam is just misunderstood.
There are too many laws that place restrictions on business when the free market is perfectly able to handle the situation on its own. For example, the original poster wants to go to a shop where all the techs are certified. But such a consumer has the option of taking his box to a place where the techs are certified. Creating a law saying techs must be certified will just lead to a large number of certifications being given to people who don't deserve them, thus diluting whatever statement of quality certifications had previously. There are just too many laws.
"BUT, there should also be some central form/way of distinguishing an accredited IT person from another."
In the REAL world, those who can DO, those who cannot get another certification. To paraphrase H.L. Mencken(sp)
Not often I see an article promoting regulation and government influence in the computer industry. This will serve to do nothing more than raise the price of computer repair. Many certified techs are nothing more than drones turned out of a factory. I trust some 14 year olds long before some of these production line techs with no knowledge but a certificate. Does that mean we will start requiring software engineers to have undergrad degrees posted on their cubicles? Perhaps all IT execs should have Masters and/or PhD's? If you want only a certified tech to work on your computer, you can always be sure to request one. Then again, if you are reading slashdot, should you need a tech?
Isn't that hazmat? As in, Hazardous Materials? So, who is it that doesn't know what they're talking about?
You people want the Government to regulate computer techs? I can't think of an organization less qualified. Besides, most of the good techs are under 17 years old - will they need a note from their mother?
"Many licenses that are issued serve primarily to restrict entry into the field and limit competition rather than protect the public, e.g. barbers."
While this is true in many respects, what could happen if a BARBER messed up? A cut throat, ear lopped off, or just a bad hair day? I would avoid mirrors for the rest of my life if need be.
Perhaps you need to re-think that remark?
It is not $6,000 ...
.
.
, .
.
.
.
.
.
It is 7 tests , they are $100 or a little
more a piece
Some places are offering discounts now
The MCSE is just a guide to their software
and has some of the concepts of networking
in there with an albeit M$ flavour
So chill, and if you don't wanna work on M$
gear don't do it , just because there are
more M$ jobs than Linux jobs is due to M$
being the first solution on site
Linux is gaining ground in server space,
but it is gonna take time if you refuse to
go the M$ way
The MCSE has some filler in it, but there is
some material relevant to their software,
supporting it and the bizarre problems and
bugs you get a whole other lesson plan
off tech net thru blood, sweat, and tears
Don't get me wrong Linux rocks, but it is
going to be a gradual process to get the
trust of the establishment, especially
with M$ FUD blazing the way
Peace !
Ex-MislTech
Oh yeah I have the A+ and I am Sooo stupid !!!
I had to get my dawg to type this for me
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
A misrepaired car can kill, not just you, but others.
You already stated that hair salons can be dangerous due to the various chemicals found in most of the places. (Also, think of the lopped ears!)
Computers? It's already there. If you buy a Dell, Gateway, or CraptasticBox, they insist you take it only to an authorized repair person, or your warranty has no chance to survive. (Make your time!)
I'm sure there's not a terrible lot of things preventing a small mom and pop store from becoming an authorized Dell/Gateway/CrapBox repair center.
Now, if you build a box or have someone put one together for you, you're taking a chance. Should there be required licensing for repair of these?
I don't see the need. If you don't know what the hell you're doing, buy a Dell.
Why do hair dressers require cosmetology licenses? Will your hair fall off if not cut correctly? No. Occupational licensing measures your ability to pass a test. It does not measure whether you know how to do your job. It cannot guarantee that the house a licensed builder will stand up. It does not guarantee that an unlicensed builder's house will fall down. It does give legal sanction to discriminating agains the unlicensed builder, or hair dresser, or shoe-shiner. Why are taxis regulated and jitneys banned? Who benefits from this?
All engineers are supposed to have a piece of paper that lets them legally call themselves engineers. Or at a lower level, engineers are required to get some piece of paper allowing them to become employed. Pretty much all civil and chemical engineers are licensed. On the other hand, very few electrical engineers are licensed. Do you want your computers designed by someone who lacks a license by some government agency blessing them? Do you care? Does the management in the company building those computers care?
All that said, I am in favor of some occupational licensing, like for physicians. The fear I have is that in the future, it will be necessary to have a license to hold any job. In the early 1990s, it was looking like programmers (or software engineers, if you will) were going to need to be licensed as well. It fell apart, but I predict it will surface again like a cheap monster returning in sequel after sequel. All it would take is some nasty scandal to errupt over sloppy programming that blows up all over the news. Do you think big business wants another Y2K crisis? Do you have a 4 year degree in programming? Something close? Could you get written recommendations by 3-5 other licensed professionals who have worked with you in the past and are knowledgable of your job skills?
I say no, only because I cover my ass anyway. Within quotes that I give to my clients, I always put a clause in there that my company is not responsible for any data loss due to malfunctions, etc, and ultimately their data protection is their own responsiblity. I personally would never destroy my clients data on purpose, so it pretty much covers me. Also, as a side note: people who are doing these things as a profession, alone or with a company, should be insured. I myself have over $1M policy for liablity. I feel safe, and the clients that I service feel safe.
People with your mindset create bureaucracy...(By the way, it's kind of a shitty thing!)
Also, most of the people I meet with certifications are certified test passers. They really don't know what everything is simply because experience is the best teacher in this field. You can't learn everything you need to know to be a good technician in a classroom (or at home studying for the test). You simply have to do to learn.
Well if I need to be certified to work on someone's computer they better be certified to operate it.
I am not going to be held accountable because some poor innocent consumer doesn't know how to operate his computer.
Cars are simple, 5 or 6 major controls to operate and if you push the gas it should go.
Hair salons just make the peoples hair look the way they want. Picture of hair replicate to persons head.
But me having to rewrite someones copy of linux or windows because they have to hit shutdown twice and if i don't i'll loose my certification. That is just plain stupid.
Cars are a little closer to PC's on explaining problems. But if the fuel pump died. that means the fuel pump died.
Hair salon is easy problem description. I trimmed it to short. Thus I trimmed it to short.
Computer description. Your new copy of Office XP will not run on windows 3.11 and i'm sorry you can't take it back since you opened it. COVER YOUR HEAD AND KISS YOUR CERTIFICATION GOODBYE.
Remember the user doesn't have to be certified.
My new title at the office is "Vice-President of Everything Else"
Let's see: I had a Mac Powerbook 180c, and the surface-mounted powerplug pulled off the board. Anyhow, I brought it in, they charged me to replace the board, opened it in front of me... everything was fine except for that. It was an Apple-Certified Repair shop. So I got it repaired. Took it home, it worked.
Apple-Certified Repair shops are NOT allowed to do solder repairs. They are only permitted to do module level repairs -- if a contact on the motherboard is loose, you've got to buy a new motherboard. Soldering is not taught in Apple Certification repair authorization courses. Having unauthorized repairs (such as soldering) done on a component makes the part ineligible for warranty repairs and ineligible for part swap cost reduction (most out-of-warranty Apple repairs are of this type, i.e. your motherboard is bad, you [repair shop] send in the bad board and you get the new one for say $500 instead of the non-swap cost of $800). If the machine is already out of warranty, an Apple-Certified Repair shop might offer to make the unauthorized repair. The better ones will tell you that you take the risk of future repair costs (due to non-swappableness) upon yourself. Others may not and leave you to discover it for yourself when something else goes out.
The Powerbook 180s had the pretty common problem of the power connector breaking -- resoldering and a glob of hot glue do a pretty good job of repair. They also had a pretty bad problem of screw mounts breaking just from normal use. If you didn't check them prior to bringing in your laptop to the shop, chances are that the shop didn't break them. They probably should have mentioned it though, but they may have just assumed that after paying for a new hard drive, you didn't want to pay the additional $200 for a new bottom case.
-A former Apple Authorized Repair shop supervisor
Well said, and it shall come to pass! They will stare in bewilderment when it happens, but it shall come to pass!
Inviting the government into our corner of the world?? What an imbecile. You don't deserve to be a part of our flock. Please leave your keys with the front desk.
Lemon laws here, they are IN FACT built wrong in the factory. Wake up and smell the dogshit on your shoes...should have looked BEFORE, not after.
Wouldn't economy want certification? Not only does it raise the bar (hopefully) to a standard business would be more apt to trust, but it also allows a certified technician to charge more for his "qualified" time. "After all," he says to his hapless and hopeless customer, "if you want a talentless hack to take a whack at fixing your $10,000 problem, go ahead; it won't cost you much (up front). But if you want someone who knows what he's doing to take a look at it, you're going to have to hire my certified tushy!"
"and just let people publish like crazy on the web who is good, and who isn't worth the screwdriver they wave around."
Yeah, we all know that web referrals are trustworthy! Just look at Amazon's review system!
And this doesn't even mention referrals for ways to increase the size of your penis by 135%.
Self-regulated industries are self-regulated because they want to avoid forced regulation. A perfect example is the diving industry. You don't need a license to go scuba diving. no law requires you to do anything. If you aren't certified by a recognized school of diving, though, most dive shops won't fill your tanks. Now, they *can* fill your tanks, they are allowed.. but they won't. Why is this good?
I know people who aren't certified.. but they KNOW how to dive. They've been doing it for 20 years. Many shops will give you air if they are comfortable that you know what you are doing It's not a hard & fast rule.. but it does prevent a barrier to entry for idiots killing themselves.
If they did NOT do this, people would die, and eventually laws would be passed.
Mechanics are certified because we like to feel confident when we give our expensive, important automobiles to some stranger to work on. I know non-certified poeple whom I trust and would be happy to allow to work on my car.. all the same.
Mandatory regulation of PC repair? Bollocks.
That's all we need, more brain-dead civil-servant types poking their inept noses into our business! I'm an old (former) IBM FE (Field Engineer), when we used to work on machines worth more than the GNP of Europe it would have made sense (still does for big iron), now that a "High-end" consumer system costs under $2,000.00 how can you justify it? Your so-called "Top of the line PC" is worthless in two or three years anyway, they've become disposable commodity items like standard TV's or microwave ovens.
I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
In other places, the licensing schemes have become a way of propping up the unions: the quickest and easiest way to get a license was to join the union. The net effect of this is to restrict YOUR freedom to practice your livelihood based on your membership in some fairly questionable organizations.
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
Looking back in time, lawyers, architects, doctors and engineers were all unregulated professions. If you wanted to be one of these things, you apprenticed under a skilled practicioner until he said you were good enough. Sometimes, in ye olden days, there was even less than this.
I believe, after a few expensive losses and lawsuits, we'll see state and federal government pass regulation requiring certification to not only repair, but for programming also. The justification will be 'importance to society' or maybe even 'think of the children'.
Regardless, like many statutes, it'll have good and bad mixed together. Hopefully some wiser \.ers will have some input to keep things on the positive side.
I have been in this industry since the 1st cloned IBM box was delivered in Adelaide, South Australia. :-P ).
/dev/null
It was delivered to my fathers business.
I was his "Computer Technician" from that point onwards.
I built an ISP.
I Built a PC repair system
I manage networks of PC's around my town.
I even manage servers in the USA (from humble old Adelaide, SA).
I can fix problems that most lecturers at any of the "acreditation centers" anywhere would never have seen, or even heard about.
I have fixed problems that the manufacturer of the unit could not fix.
I have attended exactly 3 days of PC repair training in 16 years of PC repair work.
I currently run a business that has too many *stupid* rules and obligations with the gubment.
We spend more time collecting tax for them than working for ourselves.
any one who wants the government to regulate them should go get a job in an industry that can real cause pain and suffering to the customer if administered wrongly (BOFH's are not included
I understand that some morons will try to set up shop, and pass themselves off as legit, however, IMNSHO, they dont get much work anyway. My business works because my customers love my staff, and what we do for them. They don't care for a piece of paper that tells them "somebody" in some gubment department somewhere thinks that the person who is named on said certificate might know a thing or two about pc's.
My business picks up more customers because of the service I give my existing customers.
Word of mouth babee - "These guys really know their stuff"
In my experience the certificates most people get are no indication of their true aptitude for the job.
flames >
fools not suffered gladly....
The certification boom is the worst thing to happen to IT since the .com bubble burst.
Let me tell you a little story, last year the organisation I work for had it's IT staff leave for better shores just before a massive restructure and expansion. Without an IT department it was left up to HR to do the hiring who based their decisions on the certifications of the applicants. Disaster.
The MCSE Sys Admin didn't know how to change login scripts and the MCP/Uni Grad/A+ Helpdesk Tech was comically talentless. 2 weeks later they hired the IT manager who was selected by a technical consultant they brought in to assess the applicants. This been government he couldn't fire Tweedledee and Tweedledum so he hired me to take up the slack.
What happened here?
Well after sitting the two of them down I found that pre-2k neither had any interest in IT or computers in general, it was the pre-2k $$$ that lured them. The Sys Admin had been able to get a wide array of qualifications just by going to companies that sat cram sessions. The Helpdesk Techo on the other hand was a natural academic; he could cram for any subject and pass an exam if he had enough preparation time.
The IT industry is not bloated, it's diluted. Diluted with apathetic people who when faced with problems that real technicians revel in will curl up and demand training. We now have a new company policy regarding hiring, certifications mean nothing. This makes hiring hard, we have to read the CVs and god forbid actually interview people but we get the best of the best :)
Yes, I know the "ol' Hippocratic Oath," having taken it in the past (my politically-correct medical school also had some new-age versions you could take in place of the original). "Do no harm" is good advice.
That particular phrase, however, is not in the hippocratic oath. The closest phrase is something to the effect of "I will give no deadly medicine, if asked, nor suggest any such counsel"
The "Do No Harm" exhortation has been variously attributed to other writings of Hippocrates, and also to the Roman physician Galen.
Just FYI.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
When you're connected to the Internet, you have a lot more neighbors to offend. Code of practice could include vcheck before delivery of repaired system.
Thou hast damnable iteration, and art indeed able to corrupt a saint - Henry IV, Act I scene II
In many cases, government-mandated certification does nothing to protect the customer, but is merely used by those already _in_ the business to keep new competition _out_.
The Institute for Justice (http://www.ij.org/index.shtml) has won several court cases that blew the old boys' network out of the water (http://www.ij.org/cases/index.html).
Why should you have to be a licensed mortician just to sell somebody a casket? Why do you need a full cosmetology license just to braid somebody's hair?
There are other ways to insure that businesses do a competent and thorough job. Goverment approval should not be a requirement.
Am I saying this was a good thing to do? No. A bad thing? Nope. Was it a policy I agreed with? Not necessarily, not that my opinion of the practice even matters. I'm simply relating my experiences regarding the relative worth of A/Net+ certs as far as tech jobs are concerned.
If I were forced to guess what the implcations are, I'd say that if you're thinking about getting A/Net+ in addition to other certs, don't bother since they won't add much value. If you have no other certs and are thinking of getting one of these in order to beef up your resume, I'd say you might be better off skipping it and spending a little more time/effort getting another type of cert (cisco, MC*, RHCE, whatever). YMMV.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
Asking for government regulation is like asking for a hole in the head - sure, it would serve a purpose, but to what end?
In California, all computer businesses are required to be licensed. Over 75% of the computer businesses listed in the Fresno city phone book, do not. Nobody cares. The customer OR the state. The customer is ONLY concerned with cost. If they can buy a system $100 cheaper, around the corner, they will. Even if it doesn't come with a legal OS.
Certifications can be utter crap. A associate of mine is a personal trainer. He took classes, read books, and sat in on exams to get his certification from "company X." Recently, his gym hired another personal trailer who clicked on the right buttons on an on-line form, and received her equally-valid certification from "company Y." The same deal applies in pretty much all industries. For that matter, is a Ph.D from Harvard the same as one from the local state college? No, but they're both Ph.D's.
Who can really judge what you do or don't know, and whether you have an intuitive grasp of your profession? Formal education itself is a self-perpetuating industry. It's noble cause, I'll admit, but just as subject to the corruption and bureaucracy to which we've grown accustomed in government and large companies.
On the salon bit... if memory serves, a salon is subject to regulation by the local health board if they perform manicures. Manicures are considered a surgical procedure since they involve the removal of skin (albeit dead skin), and sometimes encounter blood products.
-Scott Hutton
... but you seem to be all out of capsital letters. Here, have some of mine: AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF GGG HHH III JJJ ...
Why would we want the govt. to regulate the computer repair industry when they don't even regulate the computer manufacturing industry ?
There is an awful lot of computer hardware and software junk out there being sold to begin with. There is no accountability for selling crappy software either, you can't even return the stuff once you've tried it!
It never gets brought up. It never gets enforced. It just got swept under the rug in the 80s and has never been remembered. If you have a problem with a service department, just ask them for their certification. They will panic and make you happy any way they can. I have used this technique many times (in fact a former client even used it on me)
US Democracy:The best person for the job (among These pre-selected choices...)
I meant the comment about anarchy in the same spirit as the person (whose name I forget) who said that democracy was the worst possible system except for all the others. :-) I don't truly favor anarchy, but it's scary to watch the sausage being made. :-)
Some times it makes some sence... ...six months to train a hourse and eight weeks to be a cop.
Bad doctors hardly every have their licenses revokes.
Hmmmm, you took the eight week course, didn't you?
Three Certs for Consultants who fly the sky
Seven for the Kiddies in their parents' home
Nine for Megastore-Techs who often lie
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie
One Cert to rule them all, One Cert to find them,
One Cert to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Redmond where the Shadows lie.
paintball
Government certifications/licensure is NOT a gurantee of quality or integrity. The other fields with certifications you listed-- hair dressers and auto mechanics are good examples of what I'm talking about. How many people have been ripped off by auto mechanics? How many people have gotten a horrible hair cut at a hair dresser?
Additionally, I am not really sure that state certification of auto mechanics is required in all (any?) states... perhaps to do things like issue safety/emmissions permits, etc but not just to be able to work on a car.
CAPTAIN OBVIOUS!
Leave us alone. Don't complicate things. Even suggesting this gives people ideas. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength. - George Orwell or George Bush?
100% typo-free, are we?
I may be a bit biased, but I resent the implication that we young workers simply cause problems. I'll probably get modded down as off-topic, but I was fortunate enough to be given a small job doing maintenance on an NT network when I was 10. I'm now 19 and have been with a large family of automotive dealerships for over 4 years, working on application development, eCommerce, web design/maintenance, etc. Had I not been fortunate enough to start in the business at a young age, I wouldn't be where I am today.
Not to mention - do we REALLY need the government involved in something else?
I have worked in computers for over 15 years and have NO CERTIFICATION. Once, I was working in a Y2K project and had to install patches in quite a few servers in a Server room. I was doing this with a fully certified MCSE :-). When we arrived, I said to him "I start at the left, you start at the right and when we get to the middle we are done" quite clear and simple, after all he was certified. The IDIOT was incapable of doing even one of the servers without my help, so don't talk to me of certification. As far as I know, is just a waste of time and paper , and talking to most of those "Fully Cretified" idiots is a waste of precious oxigen!!!!
The point is that the government doesn't just regulate the little bit you want -- once they own a piece of the business, their Bureaucratic Oath requires them to extend their market share to include everything. Soon you'd need a license to log into your own computer.
Thou hast damnable iteration, and art indeed able to corrupt a saint - Henry IV, Act I scene II
I think people should rely on there own judgement in this arena. They should talk around and see who is the best. I think what would best solve this issue is a good network of people to know and see who stinks and who is good. Regulation would only clog up the process that takes forever anyways in some cases. Vote NO on regulation!! Keep it free brother. (Another way for the government to keep you under there thumb)
John 3:16
The first job I got after graduating High School, was as a computer technician at Computer City. With no resume' to speek of and no certifications, I got the job purely on personal experience and knowledge(i.e. the lead tech asked me questions and gave me situations to solve, and I did so). I don't believe certifications count worth shit, and wouldn't ever recommend someone take their computer to someplace that required their employees to have them.
The only way to find a reliable tech is through word of mouth. Most likely the most knowledgable person that can work on your computer is a friend or son/daughter of a friend. Someone who has actually learned by doing is far better than someone that spent $100 to take a test that they prepared for by reading a BOOK!
Simply put: never take your computer to a store to have it fixed. Their in the business of selling not repairing. They want to take you're money and push you out the door.
Ask around and you're bound to find someone who can not only help you, but they're probably also willing to teach you, and do so for a lot less than a store would charge.
Let's also lump in certs for posting to /. and querying google.
Are we so lost we need to be told what to do?
Keep your packets off my GNU/Girlfriend!
It sounds to me like someone is fond of the saying "There oughta be a law". The computer industry is very different from mechanics and hair stylists, not to mention it has a different history. SOMEDAY car mechanics and computer techs will be much alike. In the meantime, feel free to continue legislating from the sofa.
Government regulation has almost always done more harm than good, and de-regulation of formerly regulated industries has almost always done more good than harm. If you're posting on slashdot, you've already demonstrated a level of competence with a computer greater than that of most average users. Do you think you need a government regulatory agency run by political flunkies to certify that you know how to install an OS and troubleshoot an IRQ conflict?
In the interest of full disclosure, I should point out that I work for a government regulatory office, and the last thing I'd want to see in the computer industry is a bureacracy like mine interfering in private enterprise. We have managers and executives here making $100,000 a year who really do very little beyond pushing paper around and signing their names to requisitions.
Honestly, has the Bureau of Automotive Repair ever done anything to curb abuses in the car repair business? Why do we need the Bureau of Consumer Affairs to "certify" hairdressers? Government Bureacracies feed on themselves and always grow continuously beyond their limits, regardless of whether they are necessary to protect the public safety. Your tax dollars are wasted on these ridiculous entities. I speak from experience.
They are certified because like doctors they can very easily spread diseases between clients, not because of dangerous chemicals and tanning beds. The certification process is all about sterilization of tools. Outside of this country it is very easy to head lice and foot diseases while getting a makeover - fun!
Is how I got into IT in the first place. In fact, it's how a LOT of people I know got into IT. We got sick of the know-nothings at CompUSA and Best Buy jerking us around, maximizing their profits and our downtime. We said, screw this, we can do it better ourselves.
And you know what? By and large, we did. And you can too. It's really not that hard.
Yes, there's a lot to learn. But there are a lot of people willing to give you their knowledge and their time for free if you ask them nicely and show a real interest in learning. Much of the information is freely available online. Most of the documentation these days is pretty accurate and the instructions work if you follow them.
Regulation will help kill DIY and add to the expense of repairing and upgrading computers, because simple things like installing RAM or PCI cards don't require hardly any knowledge or expertise to do right at all, but suddenly people will be afraid to do it without shelling big bucks out to some guy who read a book and passed the A+ exam.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Maditory Certification in the computer field just to repair run-of-the-mill sub-5000$ PC/Mac/Low-end-Servers is overkill and stupid.
...sies PICture.jpg"
1. Unlike virtually all other kinds of "repair" work, computers change so bloody fast that all certification is meaningless and useless to the joe-average computer user. Just look at all the MS certifications there are, can you pull random annie off the street and get her to find the difference between MCP or MCSE?
2. There are two elements to computer service, software and hardware. Certain specific software has certification from the manufacturer of the software (agan MS.) However from a hardware point of view, if can put lego together, you can put PC's together. Just finding out what certain parts are (by identifying the connectors, or in some cases the chips or ID numbers on them) is about the only real talent you need to "service" the hardware.
There is no certification for overclocking, fine-tuning games, fine-tuning the OS, creating dual-boot OS machines, etc. These are all the work of computer geeks with experience, If they can do this and not destroy everything the computer user has, they are qualified to fix a computer.
What I would like to see is more of an Official database of certified/licensed technicians so your joe-average user can learn when their favorite technican earned their papers, and if they have been keeping updated. Someone who got an A+ Cert (which is of laughable value) in 199x who hasn't been keeping their skills up probably couldn't identify serial ATA or an AGP 8X slot, probably couldn't tell you the capacity of a DVD-R/DVD-RW disc, and wouldn't know what DDR RAM is.
I fix my own stuff, but I know plenty of people who have gone to their local computer store, or even the place they bought their name-brand computer from (Futureshop for example) and the store sends the unit away for a month instead of fixing it on site, costing the user a lot of time.
VERY IMPORTANT:
Backup your valuable data, even the best technican isn't above forces of nature and stupidity,they may accidently get caught in an accident (say he/she was taking your computer in their car to the shop, and they got struck by tree falling.)
There were times where I've lost my own data, other peoples data, I had the "oh shit" feeling, but there was nothing I could do. Sometimes drives fail before they can be backed up.
PRIVACY:
Those certifications don't meen voyeur technicians won't go through your resumes and ICQ logs.
There was this one family teen girls went and deleted all their ICQ logs, downloads and stuff before having the computer serviced... but didn't empty the recycle bin. Now had the mother who brought it, mentioned that her girls had deleted things. So this interpretated to us that the girls had been probably been doing something they shouldn't be. Nobody really cared enough to go undeleting files or poking through the recycle bin. The closest anyone came to privacy invasion was during the back-up phase when we could see strange filenames run by that were located in the recycle bin "Copying from Recycled:
Under normal circumstances, the computer technicans have no time to waste poking around on your computer for juicy private things. (I will note that if you live in a small town and you have any level of notoriety, you may be taking a risk.) However if the computer takes a dive, and you bring it in, and the first thing they see is child porn on the desktop when they get it up, they may very well call the police before calling you back.
I know this won't go over on /. well, but gov't red tape isn't the best solution to most problems. Being ripped off by fraudulent mechanics is a more severe problem than mechanics not knowing what they are doing. Certification doesn't fix that. The majority of people's problems with PC repair places has to do with them being to goddamned stupid to backup data that is oh so valuable to them.
Then instead of wearing "No I will not fix your computer" T-shirt, I can wear "Sorry, I'm not certified to fix your computer"
Why do we need more government regulation? The government controls enough, I'd loved to see less government involvment! Keep the government away from my life.
TSIA
Can't say I've ever encountered mandatory certification for either.
I hate it, I'm probably among the most skilled computer troublshooters in my town. However I can't practice my trade legally because of a county law requiring me to have an appliance repair license, or get the super duper new "computer repair license". Slight problem with that is I must work for another business that is licensed for two years before I get mine... there's only three licensed business throughout the entire county and they are NOT hiring. Now my county has stepped up assinitity another notch by requiring me to be an electrician to install network and phone wires... yup that's right an electrician I have to work in the industry under a licensed electritian for five years to get this.... I have no problem paying money and taking tests for a license, but I just can't find the place to, or make the time commitment... I'm ready to jump out of my skin... if anybody can help me I'd be much appreciative.
What political party predominates in your state and county?
I know where I'd put my bets...
Just like car repair, I don't take my car to someone just because he has a certificate on the wall. Like most people we find the one we trust by trial and error or a reliable recommendation.
Come to think of it, we do this with all "repair" personnel, including doctors. And all repair people, mechanics to doctors operate the same way -- namely: look at sympton of problem and attempt fix of most common cause, if that doesn't work rinse and repeat. The only difference seems to be cost of parts and time involved.
Now, if your data has a real value, then you either are:
What about cost? If you introduce forced certification, it'll incur a large cost that'll be passed on to consumers
What about enforcement? What if someone performs "illegal" tech work without a cert? What if a cert'ed tech screws up? Will there be government entities to oversee the process and handle complaints? All costs - and unfair, not every user 1) has a computer 2) needs a tech
Tips balance of power - if all techs had to get certed, everyone would focus on Windows - and the issue of "unsupported" systems (like your fav *ix) would get even worse.
Tech support - this involves working on systems, even if you're talking someone through it - will this be subject to cert? You can bet that even fewer will offer free support.
There are plenty more reasons to not force certification, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily bad. Techs/shops can use it to their marketing advantage - like "GM" certified shops can make themselves sound more credible than the "local greasy Joe" shop.
The best thing about a boolean is even if you are wrong, you are only off by a bit.
I used to teach A+ Certification, and I can tell you that yes, it can be passed by studying hard and taking the practice tests a hundred times. I had almost 10 years experience in PC repair before I took the test. I should have gotten a 100% on that test, but I only got a 96%. That's after taking the practice tests a few times. The reason? Some of the terminology and stupid stuff that nobody needs to know to fix a computer is on there. Point being, it's a pretty tough test that maybe someone can learn something on the way. I know quite a few people who failed the test (most people who take it the first time thinking it's easy). Just recently, they have updated the test, adding on more Linux / Mac questions. There are no Windows 3.1 questions on there anymore. I would say that the A+ Certification just means that the person knows the 'lingo' needed to learn how to fix computers. If it was a 'government mandated' thing, you'd probably see it more like Cisco's tests, where you have to actually 'fix a computer' in order to pass. And the certifications would expire after a year or two, requiring you to continually update your certification. So, I see it as a good thing. Most of the time, us good techs don't get the respect we deserve because of all the bad 'techs' out there that don't know shit.
If the guy slapping in a CD-ROM drive will require certification, doesn't it make sense that the programmers behind a multiple tier, multi-million dollar project should be? Then, will a computer science degree that is often often 50% mathematics and dead languages (anyone forced to study Pascal or Fortran in college?) be sufficient for using any of an infinite combination of vendor-specific hardware and software? Are the overpriced, usually useless vendor training programs going to be mandated by law for every platform instead of foolishly assuming an engineer with a $150k university degree can actually read a manual and the collected works of O'Reilly? This is a black diamond slippery slope if I've ever seen one.
You know, certification really means nothing
I Totally Agree. Where I work, we had a client hire an MCSE Certified guy to admin their network, because they didn't want to pay for our services anymore.
Well he totally screwed with thier network, simply because it was obvious he didn't know what he was doing.
First, he disabled the DHCP Service on thier Router.
Then he Installed DHCP on thier Server
Then (and here's the good part) he set up Every computer on thier network with Static IP Addresses.
Just goes to show you what Certification means... or maybe that's because it's Microsoft Certification. I dunno.
How could I say to men: "Speak louder, shout! For I am deaf!"? -Ludwig van Beethoven
Becoming a good or expert tech is totally different and no test can do this.
The only way to become good at any technician position where its copiers, cars, or computers is to go out and do it. A year or more is required for full maximum performance. A test will not make you an expert but will be enough where you can start out and learn from your boss or other co-workers on how to do your job.
http://saveie6.com/
And it goes the other way, too. I only know one A+ certified tech (he got the cert. thru a community college training course, but has ZERO hands-on experience outside of that class), and there's no way in hell I'd *ever* let that guy touch my hardware or software. Not only for the lack of experience, but also because he just flat doesn't have the aptitude -- if it's not in the textbook, he hasn't the first clue what to do. Considering the popularity and relatively low cost of such classes, and the frequent outright incompetence I've observed among computer repair techs (especially in chain stores and in small-town shops with no competition), I suspect he's more the norm than not.
OTOH, most of the truly competent techs I know have either no certs at all, or have a fairly ancient CNE but nothing else.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
This post is extremely offtopic, but when I saw that the post had 666 current replies, I felt obliged to step in and save the slashdot community from eternal damnation, or well, at least slight dismay from communing with the devil. :)
Well, anyways, have a nice day.
Good consumerism and common sense should really make mandatory licensing moot. Should Shop X be required to make its techs get certified? Of course not. Consumers concerned about the well-being of the equipment that's being worked on should demand (IRL sometimes they do, sometimes they don't) that the tech be certified. I always carry my card with me, and if there's any question, I have my information right there.
/.ers who make a hobby and sometimes a living out of fixing computers. They're there to assure Joe Consumer that he's getting a trained technician. They're there for John Shopowner as a marketing point and as an easy way of discriminating who is and who is not qualified to work at his shop.
Just like the Better Business Bureau and the Chamber of Commerce, there's nothing that needs to be mandatory about certification. But for the sake of good public image and marketing--essential for any good, well-run business--it needs to be done.
The certs aren't there to impress people like a lot of
I want to take the test that can predict my ability to trouble shoot and repair at least two dozen operating systems, thousands of pieces of hardware, thousands of versions and types of software, 1000's of dynamically loaded and shared libraries, 1000's of configuration files &or registry entries, millions of lines of source code, and NONE of which has licensing guaranteeing any of it will ever work!
Now sod off while I finish study for a worthless CCIE lab and go back to school to become a neurologist.
Its almost on topic, its 2am and I'm hacking some ancient fox code, so here goes...
How many MCP's does it take to change a lightbulb ?
None they just redefine darkness as the industry standard.
MCP's A+ its all the same, as if learning a book by rote makes you better at computer repairs.
Nothing beats learning from your mistakes and frying the odd mobo.
It's a difficult question for people who don't have a geek community to rely on for references. How does someone who bought a computer at WalMart know if the chain store or local shop with a string of certificates on the wall actually hires competent people? How do they know if the nerdy kid down the street actually knows anything, or just talks a good line? These customers have no basis for comparison, because they have no idea if what the tech did was correct or not.
:)
:)
For several years there was a guy around here, with a regular shop, who always "fixed" every computer he touched the same way, whether it needed it or not. I got most of my regular clients as a result of cleaning up what he broke. (I'd fire up the machine, quickly discover his handiwork, and say "Oh, D. was here!" and they'd think I was a genius.
And personally, I find it easier to manually fix the registry than to reinstall the OS.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
"Gee, wish that I could - but i'm not *certified* to fix PCs..."
I could live with that!
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
No doubt...somebody brought their pc into my shop with a nonfunctional printer port. Circuit cities a+ techs wanted to charge them 160$ to install a new parallel port card. I booted it, went into the registry and removed the roughly a dozen or so parallel port entries from hkey-local, killed it in the device manager and checked safe mode for ghost entries. Reboot, port works. Took me 5 minutes and I charged the guy ten bucks. There ain't no substitute for knowin'.
Similarly, as long as you're honest about your lack of formal qualifications as a computer hardware technician, if people want to pay you to "fix their computer" good luck to them. As lives aren't at stake, regulation is even less justified in this case.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
The same criteria are missing from the Software world. Real, objective public health issues can be named for beauty salons. The same can not be said of computer issues.
A better start might be to make those who proffit off software responsible for obvious negligence. The makers of Outlook were told that an email client that automatically loaded and executed code sent by third parties would be disaterous, yet they built it anyway. That decision has cost businesses billions of dollars. Such malpractice deserves contempt and punishment. It's not the $200 computer it's the man years of work that gets wiped out, the business and reputation lost by it's failure that counts.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
You say, "I've met lots of people who are MCSE's who are clueless." That's funny because I have yet to meet anyone with one of those that had a clue or were not ashamed of it. Kinda like a pet rock, "Yeah, I got one of those." they say.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
and here's why. It would put the little(r) guy out of commission. Just because a business is big enough to pay hundred of dollars of certification fees doesn't mean it's neccessarily fair or honest. For example, one of my customers had power issues with his computer: it would turn on only intermittently. He said "this is the same thing that happened before (medium wisconsin computer company name removed) replaced the power supply and the hard drive." I took it, found that the problem was actually in the power cable. It had been crushed behind/under a desk, and powered on only sometimes when used. In comparison, my cable powered it on all the time. $10 fix, plus labor. This wisconsin computer company gave this person their "broken" parts back after the repairs. Since this person had no use for them, he gave them to me, saying "you may be able to use them for something." Turns out, they weren't bad after all. The company had ripped off this computer-illiterate person, charging him hundreds of dollars for hard drives and power supplies he didn't need. I, an independent, who would not be able to afford big certifications, found and fixed this and several other problems.
Big isn't necessarily better.
(PS. I'm not of legal voting age in the US. Just to put things in perspective)
I recognize people by their sigs. Is that a bad thing?
If somebody is good at something, you recommend him or her to your friends -- and that person gets more business. If somebody is lousy at something, word gets around and the person has trouble getting work, until he's getting work only from people who are more interested in a cheap price than a quality job.
And so, 90% of the world's personal computers run junk from M$. =;>
The only "certs" I could live with would come from the Free Software Foundation, or some other professional group not affiliated with vendors.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I can speak from several years of personal experience as a pc repair technician. One of the first things a tech does after your machine is up and running again is search your computer for "*.jpg" and look at your porno.
I do, and every other tech under the age of 40 that I have ever worked with does as well. If you have pictures of yourself or your S. O., you might do well to not keep them on your hard drive.
If the tech gives you a funny look when you go to pick up your pc, you can be certain that he has found your secret stash of midget porno.
It is quite sufficient to be able to sue and ruin a company/individual/group reputation. Involving government is just a way to waste more of our money extracted at gunpoint from us while creating yet another excuse for corruption and stealing freedom from the people.
Don't know about the state you live in but here in Washington state licenses are for the purpose of generating revenue. To the government, tax is crack. Figure it out! In the face of huge unemployment and, fleeing business, and complete failure for the last 20 years with almost every social(ist) program my state govenrment wants more social(ist) funding while raising taxes on the common working and unemployed stiff and has chosen to ignore the will of the voters to increase teachers pay. Seems there is only enough to pay for increases for Gary Lock (Emperor/Governer) and his henchmen eg: Patty (Afgan women don't need no schoolin') Murray (pro terrorist, traitor) and Jim (I Like Saddam) McDermott (pro terrorist, anti-america, traitor).
No brain, no pain.
Not all people can afford those types of private certifications. MCSE's and A+ and Cisco certifications all cost money. If a company wants to privately hire only certified professionals, that's their right to do so, but it shouldn't be an imposed mandate. If that rule were in effect back 6 or 7 years ago when the overwhelming majority of computer-knowledgeable people were under the age of 18, who would work in those stores? Definitely not the kid who's a poor computer genius, but the older person with enough money to waste on certifications that only prove that a person knows enough about the subject to fix a few types of problems that are covered in a review book. Experience and intelligence are the only tools a computer technician needs to do good work. Problem solving requires more than a piece of paper saying that you performed well on a certain day.
Today I had to deal with a kid who is studying for his A+ Certification and did not know how to remove a expansion card. The only thing he knew how to do was take a cover off of a case. And there is a entires classload full of kids like this. I wouldn't trust them with my windows install, let alone anything else.
1 tequila 2 tequila 3 tequila floor
If you can jump over this -> . you are certified. If softie did one thing right before its eventual and inevitable death is it busted hardware into things that come out of bubblegum machines for the average person.
If someone can outdo my quarter in a bubble gum machine they done need a piece of paper to prove it to me.
and fuck your certifications, too. I know enough about computer repair that I *can* do it without paying someone a shitload of money just to give me a title. That's so lame. Did you eat paint chips as a child?
All work is contracted by the method of "financial transaction" unless you declare otherwise in some matter. In an economy, you, I, and others seek property and services and such of those is a contract initiated for property and services by receiving a "receipt." Yes, it is misleading and places a contracted party at risk by not receiving or providing a receipt for a contracted work. In the world that we somewhat know, there are laws that keep every matter of interstate economy for proper administrative managment by its respective participants (voluntary:participants). The most complex of these laws that people and organizations operate upon is known as Tort law and Conract law. In my experience, Contract law is simply a constructed document of statments and agreements and administrative grant of action and process (legaly binding) that may or may not define an exchange of services (financial transaction) as well as abridg any laws or rights granted to any participant of the contract as defined therein. Contracts are tricky, and I know you'll find an easier-understood defenition at Dictionary.com, yet I am in consideration that a contract means much more. Tort law is only operative in absence of a contract. Tort is law that deals with all varying specific topics from organized property and land disputes to redress of varying grievances and activities that have effected another party in some negatory way in absnce of any contract to do so. Tort is how the private world in its unabridged capacity, operates administrativly with others.
here is a difference between a license and certification. A license is a contract and is entirly a voluntary act. A contract, in this world, is to be held accountable for the elements in the contraction, our obligations in a said contract, or by the pre-scribed conclusion of the contract will it be legal to receive the actions of a prescribed administrative authority to choose the contracted anecdotal action in compliance with the contract. What I just summarized as a license is true to my current sustained knowledge. A certification is different from a license in respect that certification is an oath or affirmation that is in-part a construction of true statments by another agency. Yes, a(n) (MCSE) Mictosoft Certified Systems Engineer is somone that received a certificate of oath or affirmation from an agency of Microsoft that declares such statments on paper upon presentation to another agency: "I'M CAPABLE OF PRESSING A POWER BUTTON AND I CAN FDISK YOUR HARDRIVE TO LALA LAND" or some variation of what I quoted an MCSE of stating to me outside of oath or affidavit. Licenses are contracts and it is illegal to force anyone into a contractual relationship and may only be accomplished voluntarily. So, in true form, it is illegal for me to be arrested for operating my automobile (not a Motor Vehicle) on public roads/highways/streets/wherever (10th ammendment and 1st ammendment), with respect to private, and it will be illegal for any such claim of jurisdiction of another organization to apply and illegal for my property to be seized and myself placed under arrest and/or further thrown into jail should I not posses a "Driver's License" because such is the utility of instrumentality which abridges rights and grants jurisdiction to another organization which I did not. Where does this all tie together, you may ask? Please bear with me as I reach my conclusive presentation to you on Tort law and Contract law...
A receipt is issued for property and services and this signifies a conract: a financial transaction. Should any such damage of property or services arise within the contracted work of the other party you chose, then the contract has been violated and it is up to you to arrange for a judge of the law to "see" your case and recognize and enforce the redress of damages/grievances that occured at the hands of the other party with respect to your AGREEMENTS on the services in your contract. Contract law applies to States (a state is a people and not the government thereof). If the issue is not contracted, and the agencies in the non-contracted action are operating in their capacity, the issue is within the constrains of Tort law. Quite obviously, the rememdies within Contract law is beyond the scope of your contracted work and damages received (not scribed); judges choose how to administer any default remedy upon the defendent that you hold responsible for any breaches of the contracted work the defendent pledged. In many respects to freedom, Tort law has been slithered-around by the United States just so they may choose any such remedy for incorrect services rendered; you, as a United States Citizen|citizen, have agreed to the DMCA, RIAA, MPAA, STATE OF ______, and any other such federal organization to administer judgment on your behalf and as well you agree to receive judgment from them and agree to all their administrative procedure.
In the end, a Certification is just as capable of being untrue as well as a Contract violated. There will always be people in the computer repair business of hair-dress business that will act in opposite of the statments present in their certification of their skills yet it is upto you to adress such facts in a court of law or an officer of the court(notary). Did I make sense?
Dictionary.com...License
Dictionary.com...Contract
Dictionary.com...Tort
Keep in mind to not rest at the first definition of any word you may see...lawyers tend to stretch definitions of words beyond space and time so you'll need a second opinion as well from those under authorship of the english language in all its capacity. I must cease my endless bable at a recommendation to a website that focuses its persona on laws and how they apply.
Reading material that described Tort and Contract law in a modern abridged setting
But I'm sure you already Gnu that.
Would you view regulation or mandatory certification as a good thing in the computer repair/installation/maintenance world?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!
So-called "professional licenses" are a huge intrusion into personal liberty and should be abolished, with the possible exception of doctors and drivers of large trucks. It is none of the government's goddamn business who fixes my car, cuts my hair, mows my lawn or does any number of other activities for which I am perfectly capable of making my own choices. This is NOT within the proper role of government.
Government should only do for people what they cannot do for themselves (example: provide for the common defense), and the Free Market is much better at sorting the good apples from the bad than some bureaucrat who has never done an honest days' work in his life, but is in charge of deciding who is (and who is not) qualified to wipe other people's asses for them.
Do you honestly think licensing and certification would improve the computer repair trades? HA! The country is already full of MCSE's who don't know their asses from a hole in the ground, and the only thing licensing would do is insure that only those who have been through the industry's brainwas^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H stupid, expensive classes that teach products instead of concepts, would ever be allowed to touch a computer.
GONE would be the opportunity for an intelligent young person from a poor family to pull zirself up by zir bootstraps, or work zir way through college, or survive while between jobs.
The trades are full of incompetent people who are never the less certified and licensed. All of the Government regulations in the world are doing little to no good for the public. Professional licenses are the trades' equivalent of closed-source software: they're an anti-free-market mechanism to keep prices artificially high by providing a barrier-to-entry to the marketplace. They also give Government a great deal of leverage to control peoples' lives: for instance, some states now revoke professional licenses if some poor soul happens to fall behind in his child support payments.
Here in the People's Republic of Oregon the bureaucrats started requiring a stupid little "junior electrician's" license a decade ago to run network wiring, telephone wiring, burglar alarm wiring and air-conditioner-thermostat wiring. I had been doing heating/refrigeration/air conditioning for 10-15 years and was changing careers into the computer field. So I applied for their stupid little rinkydink electrician's license.
What came back from the State was a form that I had to take to everyone I had ever worked for (all of my years running my own businesses didn't count) and get them to sign & notarize a statement that while I had worked for them I had spent so many hours running wiring, so many hours laying pipe, so many hours changing filters, so many hours picking butt-nuggets out of my ass, and so forth, showing that I had at least two years' experience running thermostat wires. Gimme a break. It doesn't take two goddamn years to learn how to run low-voltage wire that is never going to kill anyone or start any fires. Further, no employer that I've ever worked for ever kept any records on how many hours their employees spent doing various activities: we did whatever needed to be done to keep people's beer cold and never worried about how much of it involved putting in refrigerant or changing a valve or running a wire.
Next, I found out that even if I COULD document all of my wire-pulling, it would certify me ONLY to run thermostat wire: it takes another two years to learn how to run telephone wire. And another two to learn how to run network cabling. And let's not even get started talking about fire & burglar alarm wiring.
So, it isn't legal for me to do HVAC/R in the Nanny State of Oregon any more. No, we're all too stupid to figure out on our own who is competent enough to run a piece of low-voltage wiring. We're all a lot better off sucking on the giant teat of Government and letting it make all of our decisions for us.
And now, you want some bureaucrat who wouldn't recognize a motherboard if one came up and spread its legs in front of him, to decide who gets to fix computers? Gimme a break. Better yet, gimme a drink... better make it a strong one. Oh wait, I forgot: you need a license before you can serve alcohol to anyone....
In times of universal deceit, telling the truth gets you modded -1 Troll
Just because they have a certification does not mean that they:
1)Know how to fix a car
2)Won't rip you off
Also, IMO a cert just means that they can pass a certain type of test aimed towards certain people. MS and Unix certs are like this.
I don't know how many people who are MS or Unix certified and have never touched an operating system. they just know how to take certain types of tests.
Dolemite
Save the World! Use a Quote!
It's far harder to fix cars and plumbing and cut hair than it is to fix a computer. Computer repairs tend to involve reformatting and reinstallation or replacement and reinstallation. This is stuff a 14-year old can do without much trouble. If you want serious work done, you need a consultant, not a repairman.
and who do you think would certify such a certification, M$ would obviously be the first contender to monopolize such competition, and thus give reign to M$ telling you what your computer should be. The problems would come from your obselete hardware, not M$, or applications, and still not M$. Software problems in windows are pointless to troubleshoot. If there was an IEEE equivalent to PC parts (such as capacitor quality) then yes there may be far less problems. I have no certifications, yet I have worked on systems ranging from 200-few mil (E-10K). I know far morw than many of my friends that have certifications in software and hardware (and they won't dispute that because I am a nerd and pay attention). I wouldn't let any of them touch any systems simply because I know that even though they are certified, me, the user ( and admin ) knows what should be done. If certifications were the end all be all of the tech industry, then M$ would would own that too, (for instance win ME certification). If you have problems you should find someone you trust, I never have so I did it my damn self and became pro in the process. put me to the candle, and I will last, I know hardware and any U*** you can name. I don't need M$ to tell me what I know
When computer repair is outlawed, only outlaws will repair computers!
Or was that guns?....Nevermind
Zep--
Any profession that requires certification require such because a lack of knowing what your doing can be a safety issue... car repair, since if your tires, for example, are put on wrong and fall off in traffic, it can have devistating consequences... hair design, because, as you said, of the chemicals, etc... even plumbing because it can damage others' appartments if you have a serious leak in yours, or even worse...
repairing your computer badly is no safety issue at all... unless your hard drive starts spinning backwards, catches fire, and burns your house down... but until I see something like that in the news, it's no safety issue... if you hire someone bad, and they screw up costing you more money, it's your own fault for hiring someone without the experience, or who just doesn't know what they're doing...
let the buyer beware.
Web Design Tips
However, no one in EE ever bothers to get a PE certification, unless they're designing power plants. PE is a complete waste of time and money if you're going to be working at a company, or doing anything besides power. They don't even have a VHDL section on the PE exam, and that's what most EEs do these days anyway.
What planet do you live on where there is a mandatory certification process to work on cars? Is this some socialist French thing?
Many car shops have only one guy with an ASE cert. Just enough to slap the sticker on the front window. I'd sooner trust the guy who has been modding his car (even body kits and so forth, if he did it himself) since he was 14 than some pissant who took an ASE class at 19 or so.
Similarly, I'd sooner trust the case modding doofus to an MCSE to figure out why my computer keeps randomly slowing down. (Real life story. Solution: screwed up power saving settings in the BIOS not matched to the OS. No fewer than four MCSE's looked at this machine with no luck.)
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
I think there are tangible benefits to come of such regulations, however there are also potential drawbacks.
I do All my own maintenance and repairs on my 18 year old Audi, and on my GF's 19 year old Audi. I would definitely NOT trust Joe mechanic at the corner gas station or auto shop to fix it. If there is a task that needs completing, and I find that it's too cold outside, or I don't have time - I take it exclusively to my local independant VW/Audi Mechanic. The guy has no education or certifications to speak of, but he's been working on these cars for 25+ years out of passion for these brands. He knows more about them than any "certified" mechanic I've ever meet or heard of. Point being that a certification is not needed to produce a competant technical worker.
On the other hand, I used to work with a guy who has an MCSE (no I'm not bashing all MCSE's here) who didn't know a screw driver from a bus driver. I mean, this guy couldn't even create a simple DOS batch file, was unable to successfully implement a 2-node microsoft cluster in 2 months time, and was clueless about settings in IIS. I also knew a fellow that was an aspiring auto mechanic. Despite having 8 different industry certifications, he was an awful mechanic - and he admitted it. Point here is that a certification definitely does not equal competancy.
I think however that industry regulations would definitely weed out some of the wannabe's, though if it is an expensive or lengthy ordeal, it may deter potential talent.
Just my 2 cents.
I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
You will do well. I am currently a 19 year old student at university, but throughout high school, I did a LOT of work for businesses as well as just people. The city I live in has a few computer shops, but they all severely overcharge, as well as do shoddy work. I made quite a living from doing my work, because my doing good work resulted in referals to other people/businesses. I did zero advertising, and last year grossed ~$55,000, and made ~$10,000. Everything was by word of mouth.
And I had no form of formal education for computer technician work.
Several years ago I went to work at a computer shop, and was severely turned off. The atmosphere and the attitude conveyed a sense of "We're a computer shop, and people don't know shit about computers, so we can do whatever the hell we want to". All certification requirements would do is make it illegal for me to do my work, and give the shops something to gloat to their customers about.
And yes, I have done plenty of fixing the messes that the computer shops created.
--Robert Cole
I hate sigs...
uh, duh, computers are made of 10 pieces with no moving parts, and cars have like 10 thousand or more. You don't have to take apart that hard drive to repair it like a car's transmission. Not to mention that, but most cars have different architectures (analagous to computer hardware CPU architecture).
This isn't rocket science people, nor is anyone asking these people to write a device driver (or fix a freakin' transmission!)
so we should I suppose allow for government regulation on all kinds of other things.. such as my hairdryer.. cuz hey.. if they don't fix it right i could burn my head.. or how about my washing machine? my armani suit might get stained.. or how about... postmen and postwomen.. they should have credentials cuz they could loose my important bills?!
if someone screws up your computer, simply don't bring it back! adam smith's invisible hand will handle the rest
I've noticed that when they call a repair shop, no matter what silly little problem they might be seeing, the shop almost always concludes that the person may have a virus, and should bring it in right away (oh, and there will be a nominal $25-$50 fee to check it out). In the past two years I have seen the virus scare tactic used when people's machines:
(1) ran out of disk space -- I've seen that one three times now,
(2) had a dead modem,
(3) had an AGP slot going on the fritz,
(4) had a power switch that was flaking out,
(5) had a spent inkjet cartridge -- my favorite... oh yeah, it's a virus...
So that's seven incidents in two years with responses from everything ranging from CompUSA to the local nerd-on-the-corner. Usually I'd start out just recommending they call somebody else, but when they hit the third or fourth place claiming it was a virus, I'd break down and fix it for them -- and hopefully educate them a little in the process. (So far I've only seen one case where somebody actually had any actual mal-ware, and in that case her moron boyfriend had downloaded a fake porn EXE which proceeded to delete files. Idiot.)
On top of the virus scam, I've seen a number of very minor problems in which the shop told the person they needed a whole new computer, when it was really just a bad video card or something equally simple. I think they reserve the Big Whammy of a new machine for the scary times when the computer doesn't seem to do anything at all when the user hits the power.
These experiences have forced me to conclude that most computer repair people are either fantastically (and improbably) incompetent, or they're just outright con artists looking to scam money from people who don't know any better.
Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005
Why add laws to an industry that works? Consumers (the individual needing computer repair, for example) are not asking that the techicians be licensed. The system works. And if things change and the consumer wants licensed technicans, then the technicans will become licensed or else they wont have work.
Making a law requiring some type of licensing does not ensure quality work either. Someone can follow the regulations and pass a few tests. This does not mean that they will care about you (the consumer), your needs and give you what you want.
The government is never the optimal solution. It does not have good answers for everything. And it does not apply them effectively. Look at the process for getting your driver license renewed (in most of the US). Do you like those long lines, insensitive clerks and hours of operation that don't fit your needs?
Why would we want computer repair becoming like the DMV?
I make too much money doing this to have it regulated! Regulation would shrink my consulting rates! And I make too much money cleaning up after idiots who can't find their ass in the dark. I say "HELL NO!" to regulation. Buyer beware, just like in consumer electronics. Industry certs and comp sci degrees will do the trick for business.
Just think, by the time the government comes up with a standard, you'd be certified to support a 286 PC with Dos 3.3. And the certification would probably only cost $200.
What a bargain.
I work at a support desk on a college campus. We *do* have an MCSE working here. Doesn't know how to deal with callers effectively, doesn't know how to prioritize, doesn't know when he's out of his depth and needs to ask for help.
This wouldn't be so bad if he had tech skills. If they're there, we haven't seen any evidence of 'em yet.
Qualifications only go so far. If you don't know how to apply what you've learned, and don't know when to ask for help, you're much less useful. (Of course, that applies to almost all jobs.)
Firstly:
"but they had to replace the first replacement due to a consultant that had no experience or knowledge in that type of system trying to put one in."
This has more to do with the boss knowing what he wants rather than needs.. he wants the system the marketting boys sold to him, and he wants the cheapest possible staff to come and install it for him, which is often not compatible.
Secondly, You have comeback in the auto industry, if a mechanic does work on your car and consequently the affected parts of the car fail, then you can sue him and/or the garage he works for.. And in turn they can sue the supplier of the parts, if these were sub-standard and caused the failure.
However in computing, while you may be able to sue a supplier of substandard hardware, there is no comeback for substandard software.. I can think of very few software products that fulfilled the marketting propoganda, especially before having numerous patches added, whereas those operating with vehicles have to get it right first time, and cars are thoroughly tested before theyre allowed to be sold, and are again regularly tested to ensure they remain roadworthy, A lot of old or damaged cars would still be on the road, cars which while they may still drive.. are often dangerous, noisy, and major causes of pollution, much in the same way that insecure software becomes infected with worms and/or viruses, and then pollutes the internet with furthur worm/virus infections and the associated network traffic, not to mention the danger that a worm might destroy someone`s important data, in much the same way an unsafe car might catch fire or crash.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Many of my older friends have repaired computers for a living for many years. Being very knowledgable and expirienced, these individuals can repair just about anything a computer user can break. This expirience can not be found in certifications as they are today. If certification is forced, then expirienced technicians will loose money until they can get their certifications and money-seekers will gain the certifications without nearly the ability, knowledge, or expirience of their counterparts and will take valuable customers away, who believe they are a better choice because of the certification and new face.
What I would propose is a certification model based on the current "trust certification" we see commonly. How many technicians advertise purely on word-of-mouth? I know many who get all their bussiness through customers talking to fellow users about who to take the system to in an emergency. This trust is based on completed, successful repairs and the years they have worked on computers. Additionally, are we forgetting what has long been the number one sign of a 'computer expert'; a love of computers, which cannot be put into paper and thus which would be destroyed by regulation.
Certifications should exist, but should not be mandatory. The agency which would give out these certifications, which would not be private corporations as many current certifications, would re-issue certifications every two or three months. The primary reason for this is the "customer satisfaction rating" which consists of customer's filling out special forms which the technician sends in. On top of the normal certification levels that would be given, their expirience could at least somewhat be rated on paper, giving a much better representation of ability than most current certifications which make all who hold the same certification equal, even tho many of them were enthusiastic computer lovers for many years and others never touched a computer before entering their training course a few months before.
Question
http://www.ironfroggy.com/
When I finally was driven to get a debit card, I got a bank account at a completely different bank than normal and use it just for the debit card and small-value checks (newspaper carrier payments and such). If someone scams that account, the worst they can do is empty out my next planned purchase funds.
My main account does not have a debit card, and it never will if I have any say in the matter. The only card on that account is an ATM card and without the PIN it has limited abuse value. (Mind you, I had to fight with them on that, they wanted sooooo badly to issue a debit card that they only caved in when I said I'd close the account if they issued one.)
Sigmentation fault - core dumped
>>When I worked for DEC they had a rule, "A+ or your ass is gone."
That is probably why we don't have DEC anymore. Did DEC pay for the course for their people that didn't have it?
Often your community college or school district will offer vechicle maint adult ed courses. These are beginner courses and are usualy a lit bit hands on. Vehicle maint is probably not real easy to learn via the web.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
You guys are wrong about certification. First, mechanics do not have to be certified to hang out a shingle and declare that they are an auto mechanic. In fact most service jobs can be done without certification. Cooks, personal trainers, and dieticians all have more critical jobs than computer techs, but no one is calling for their certification by the government; why do we hear so much about computer techs getting certified?
I hate to talk about this, but the real problem is that too many people do not know how to use their computers. I had a man yell at me for his monitor not working after our shop installed a modem. After going over all of the simple problems, including "is it plugged in", I drove to his house. The monitor was not plugged in.
Hmm. . . Should we be calling for certification to use a computer?
Call it the upper class 'burb if you want then :)
Straight out tha LBC bitch
Tim C responded: A degree, or a CS degree? There is a difference, you know.
You need an Accounting degree. Something that says you have the basic foundational skillset to perform the function. I'll quote from this page on the AICPA web site:
It's the first qualification listed. It's not just an accounting degree. The profession recently changed to a "150 hour" standard that requires at least 150 hours of total coursework (most of that being gained during your Bachelor's of Accounting degree) which must contain a specified "Common Body of Knowledge" (CBK) before you can even TAKE the exam to become a CPA.The idea here being the AICPA wants to make sure you have a certain core background before you get branded with their certification. Time was, anyone could take the exam. The new standard kicked in just in time to impact 1998 collge graduates.
I think that's what the original poster is after. How do you tell if the person fixing your computer is qualified to do so? It's great that an earlier poster can fix any computer they come across because they have a "knack" for it. How do I know you've got that "knack"? Can I depend on you to honestly tell me if you didn't have that "knack"? If you're out sick or on vacation, how do I know if the person taking your place has that "knack"? How do I know if your "knack" isn't confined to IDE and I've fot a SCSI system?
Posters keep talking about using "common sense", but knowledge of the workings of a PC or being able to judge a person's competence to fix a PC (or perform any other task) by "eyeballing" them ISN'T COMMON SENSE.
That's why certifications exist. That's why Public Accounting Firms are reluctant to hire anyone who's not already (or very close to being) qualified to take the CPA exam and they won't keep folks around who don't PASS the exam. The original poster seems to be looking for some way to ensure a more consistent level of quality in PC techs.
I don't think they do and the market is not effective yet. Have you seen any large computer vendors selling Linux desktops? I have not and still there is nothing but plans. The one or two that ever did had to make them more exensive than the windoze version of the same machine or face M$ wrath. From the coroprate perspective this makes Linux and even alternate mail clients more expensive than an all M$ set up. There are few companies or institutions that have the flexibility to experiment or impliment known good and published solutions. Dell was started in a college dorm room, but there was no Dell when it happened. Today, it is much more difficult to start such a thing and provide a cost competitive alternative to M$. The practices used to maintain this situation are what got M$ convicted of anti-trust violations.
Also it's very strange that M$ has escaped liability for their obviously defective programs. All manner of manufacturers are slapped with all manner of lawsuits for making obvious and preventable mistakes. I'm not going to defend the practice but I do note that M$ has managed to remain immune to it all.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I think folks with A+ shouldn't be allowed to use computers
If it's something that transmits (except perhaps for very low power devices), then the FCC says you have to be a holder of one of their radiotelephone operator licenses.
If it doesn't transmit then any old idiot can legally work on it, and unfortunately many do.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Of course, the economic cost of the certificate will rise until it eliminates the economic gains of the controlled supply, so it's not very useful. The best example is the cab medallion system in NYC.
The point is, no one really cares about safety. It's a trick for profits.