Slashdot Mirror
Windows 98 Phased Out
Via_Patrino writes "According to Microsoft on january 16, MS Windows 98 and 98se will end Extended Support Phase, that means they'll became obsolete and assisted support will no longer be available from Microsoft, affecting about 27% of the internet users. That means even if 98 is working well for your needs (and especially computer specifications) and you want to pay for support (because that might cost less than switching hardware) you can't, because who will be able to patch eventual new bugs (security related or not) besides Microsoft? So if you're not planning a switch it might be your last opportunity to update MS Windows 98, after that some software might disappear from MS website (just like MSIE 5.5 for 95 did)."
Ok, the link for the word "switch" in that story is a link to Linux.
Give me a fucking break!!! That's not the only option.
I switched to OS X and have never been happier!
OS X... It's like Linux but better.
Don't mod me, bro'!!!!
Why? People don't typically switch until they get a new PC. Witness the Google zeitgeist; though people are using Windows XP more, it is more than likely due to it being bundled with new PCs. (Consider how long XP has been out, as compared to how much it has been used. Also factor in that those XP and 2000 numbers liekly account for most of the corporate world.) There are a considerable number of people still using Windows 98, and it is likely to stay that way.
For home users who need Office, internet, and a gaming platform, Windows 98SE upgraded and patched does everything they need. It also runs reasonably fast on today's hardware, and there are a lot of "ain't broke, don't fix" people out there. There's really no compelling reason for people to switch, so they won't until they get a new PC.
libertarianswag.com
Is anyone out there archiving the updates and stuff that you might need to keep a 98 box going?
Screw Windows98, what about us MS DOS users?
Hack your mind out of its sandbox.
... compared to the other major player in the consumer OS market, Apple, how good is Microsoft's support for older operating systems?
Sounds like that typical MS, screwing you out of support after a scant 6 or more years. BASTARDS!
Of course, when you try to update Red Hat Linux 5.2 or Apple OS 8.5, it still works flawlessly. But no, those greedy, awful bastards at MS are just continually SCREWING the customer.
On December 31, 2003, Redhat discontinued support for Redhat 7.3 and on April 30, 2004, Redhat 9, released less than a year ago, gets the support axe.
When compared to that, I think Microsoft has been damn generous. And if you look at my posting profile, you see i don't cut Microsoft much slack either...
that does not mean 27% of internet users use Windows 98. THere are many people who just use e-mail and hardly ever use google.
New year Resolution: Don't change sig this year
Before people panic in the streets, it should be made clear that MS still plans to patch vulnerabilities in Win98. Hopefully this means people will keep using Windows Update to keep their system as risk free (from viruses, trojans, etc.) as reasonably possible. (Besides using things like virus scanners and anti-spyware tools, of course!)
-Teckla
I work in a k12 environment, and this is going to be bad for us. We use win98 because its NOT a multi user operating system.
A lot of schools have netware/win98 combos.
Since win2k/XP require logins, we have to resort to novell zenworks to manage the automatic creation of machines accounts (our servers can handle it) or switching to AD (what ms wants, but our servers cant handle it).
This blows.
Why should MS care? You aren't giving them money. I wouldn't provide support for a product that many years old unless it was explicitly stated in the contract that I would give support, especially when the average person gets a new O/S every few years.
They have given support for almost twice the length of the average PC lifecycle. That's almost like giving two decades of free repairs on a car.
Win98SE is actually not a bad embedded OS for non-Linux-literate hobbyists. Its footprint is smaller than the NT-based platforms, it's easy to bang on hardware ports to your heart's content, and it's not too unstable when running dedicated, non-networked applications. It's the best of the non-NT Microsoft OSes by far.
>It will save you a lot of headaches. You, Sir, are the devil...
Hack your mind out of its sandbox.
I remember a recent slashdot story about an open source patch for a security issue in windows xp(?). I am wondering if there would be any intrest in the open source community in releasing security patches for windows 98...
To open up the source for Win95/98/Me so the community can step in where M$ left off.
For older hardware, this is not an option as winxp requires far more resources than win98.
Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam
Interested in AI? MACR
"Microsoft" and "support" don't belong in the same sentence together
nothing.can.stop.me.now
It's just time to move on. Face it, if you're still using Win98, it just might be time to upgrade. At some point, games stop working with older graphics cards too... people will have to upgrade sooner or later. They won't be using Win98 forever, so it's better that they upgrade now and get used to a somewhat similar windows feel rather than ten years down the line using a windows that they have no idea how to operate. Of course, those here would suggest to use Linux. But that spawns another bunch of problems I don't feel like addressing.
webpage
I think that Windows9x users should upgrade to the more stable NT platform (Win2k/XP), since Windows9x is full of bugs and now that there won't be any more patches it will be worst for these users, I'm not saying that 2k/XP doesn't have bugs, but they are definitely more stable than 9x.
that means they'll became obsolete
If that's not redundant, then I don't know what is redundant.
It goes from God, to Jerry, to me.
I've just upgraded my gaming/music/surfing box from 98SE to Windows 2000 professional, courtesy of KaZ^H^H^H a licensed distributor.
Mother, do you think they'll like this sig?
From a Network Support position at a University, I almost wished they discontinued Windows Me before they did 98. We have more problems with ME than any other OS, mostly due to it being a peice of shit.
Viva La Revolucion! Buy a Mac!
Haven't we had at least two other articles by now on Microsoft phasing out their previous products? How many times can we re-discuss this AGAIN?
"Sufferin' succotash."
5 years, not unreasonable, guess its time to switch my laptop. Any recomendations for a distro? Dell Latitude LT: 200mhz PI, 64mb RAM, 4Gb HD. Also drivers for a WPC54G wireless card? I wouldn't mind switching my laptop to linux, but i'm thinking its going to be a pain, i couldn't even get Knoppix to boot on this.
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
Anyone who is happy with Windows 98 should not be required to upgrade just because Microsoft can't be bothered to support a product they created and sold to end users. God forbid that the needs of these consumers, for whome Win98 is just fine, should be paramount.
... or, be supported by someone else. That's probably about as likely as a spontaneous mutation in Bill Gate's eyeball creating a separate human species which lives on tears and speaks only Esperanto.
Either that, or Microsoft should give these users the opportunity to support themselves. They are obviously not going to make any more money from Windows 98, they should open the source so that people who don't need to upgrade can support themselves
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. (Einstein)
Server logs indicate that parent was posted from a computer running Windows 98.
Good day.
I can't see the headaches involved with browsing the internet and checking email with a working configuration.
That is atleast what most of my friends use their computers for. If you are into games or other software requiring higher performance or something, you'd already upgraded as win98 doesn't support "bleeding" edge hardware anymore.
Why doesn't MS just have an archive .. a place where someone who needs a Win95 box(for some damned reason) can get IE5.5 or WMP7 etc. If debian can keep all thier archives .. MS sure should be able to. I still occasionally fix older system(for a friend who does foster care work) and it would be nice to still be able to get patches, even if they do not patch all the issues, it would at least patch the older issues for which many exploits may exist.
.. Will MS even tell us if Win95/98fe/98SE are vulnerable by a certain exploit?
One thing i wonder about
Well, my parents run Windows 98. My grandfather runs Windows 98. My other grandfather runs Windows 98SE. I have no intention of upgrading their computers now or ever.
I've long since put my trust in anti-viral software and AdAware. That's working far better for me than many of Microsoft's patches have. I still have IE trying to download stuff on my Windows Server 2003 laptop all the time, but thankfully VirusScan always catches it and AdAware makes a nice backup should VisusScan fail. If my fully up-to-date Windows Server 2003 machine fails, why should I even bother trying to lock-down or upgrade a windows 98 machine?
Microsoft isn't supporting me, so I'm not going to go out of my way to get any of my relatives to support them. In fact, I'm recommending they all get Apple laptops next time they want to do a major computer upgrade.
Bryan
Anyone still using win9x really ought to upgrade to windows 2k/XP. It will save you a lot of headaches.
...and upgrade the obsolete headaches to modern pain-in-the-asses.
i wish microsoft would [hase out teh entire windows os. come to think about it, not a bad idea to phase out ms office also. we could do without internet explorer too... anything else? lmao
--iggy_mon - www.ananonymouskiller.com - Die Trying -
I have a 200Mhz 64 mb Ibm Thinkpad laptop that run on 98se, i have never tried to run anything else, bcause i thought it would run dog slow, i am i wrong?
My organization is on a 3-year desktop replacement cycle. Just this week, we fished the last five Windows 98 machines out of our pool and are now at XP across the board.
Yeah - I considered Linux, but then I considered retraining costs, application problems and general user resistance and decided it wasn't a battle worth fighting at this point. (not that I WOULDN'T like to get MS out eventually).
If it wasn't for the regular security threats that need patching these days, Win98 could go on for a long time.
The "problem" with opening the source to Win98 (as seen from MS's position) is twofold;
1) Much of the source in 98 is probably used elsewhere; you're essentially opening the source to a fair portion of later versions, something they don't want.
2) It would strengthen the OS movement in general, something they don't want.
What a mess Windows 98 is! Over 2 hours for the base install - and 3 reboots(!!!). Another 2 hours for installing Office and device drivers. It's a great way to waste an entire Saturday. Who claims Windows is easy to use? Windows makes Knoppix's automagic hardware detection and wealth of applications that come bundled with the OS look better and better each day. Shit, Knoppix running of the CD drive runs faster than Windows on the hard drive!
You can't really expect a company to support something that has so many basic problems. It just can't work in an open network without problems. If you don't need it in an open network then fine, you don't need updates IMHO. Sorry to sound cruel but windows 98 was fixed, it's called WindowsXP.
Does anyone actually have a Java program designed to control air traffic, or for the operation of a nuclear facility?
Informative?
Mildly amusing maybe.
"But they still don't even compare to OS X in terms of stability, usability, security and plug and play compatibility."
I guess we know where you stand on the issue. But trust me - 98 was good; I know quite a few people still using it, and happy with it too.
Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
Microsoft's support phases last a lot longer than most proprietary software companies out there.
I expect that the next big virus will knock a bunch of the remaining 98 computers offline once Microsoft stops making patches. Zone Labs will probably experience a small surge in downloads of their free firewall product.
Slow day?
Software gets old and the best thing to do is officially put it to rest. If you want to continue to use it that's your choice. Just means you also don't plan to update your hardware.
IMO supporting old versions of software is a waste of energy. I'd rather see that energy put to drivers and updates for new systems. Things need to progress forward. WHen I got into Linux the community would brag that it would still run on 8086 or 286. That's over for mainstream Linux. Hardware moved forward and so did Linux.
98SE was not bad at all. It was definitely the best of the 9x kernel versions.
The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy
Anyone who is happy with Windows 98 should not be required to upgrade
Where's the gun to the head?
Oh, wait -- they're not forced to upgrade!
You're just grabbing at straws trying to find things to bitch about regarding Microsoft. Red Hat drops support WAY sooner than Microsoft ever does (it's been 5 years for Windows 98 -- Redhat discontinued support for Redhat 7.3 at the end of last year and that's way newer than Windows 98.)
But no, instead of reasoning with your brain, you are going to play the part of the anti-Micro"$"oft troll.
evil adrian
Be thankful you never used Windows Me. It's the worst OS Microsoft ever released.
Wait......this...is a joke....right? *snicker*, *guffaw!*.
"Laugh all you want, Monkey Boy." - John Whorfin
I, for one, still play X-Wing and TIE Fighter (and a few other games unplayable/unsupported in NT/2000/XP). Why, what do you use your Microsoft OSes for?
Carthago delenda est!
and what about those of us using older computers?
not everyone is on the edge of technology like yourself.
... if you are still running win98 then do not connect to the internet now that mickysoft has stopped supporting it. the next best thing to do is if you can't run XP in the lowest memory-hog settings (turn off all eye candy) but still want internet access is to get a nice linux distro. if that doesn't work, then junk your system and buy a new one.
Sure, Win2k is better (XP is not*) but try running Win2k on a 486.
... just what I want in an OS.
* - yeah... DRM, restricted hardware upgrades,
I can build any Windozes PC in about 2 hours, patches and major application installs included.
I, for one, welcome our new verbally enhanced overlord.
That's why I'm using it.
The fastest way to run Windows programs under Linux is with Win4lin.
Win4lin doesn't support W2K, so I use Win98 for it.
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
And how am I supposed to play games on my PII box? UT, max payne, and even more receng games are playable under win98, but when I boot to XP (I've got enough ram), those games are unplayable.
I love OS X myself, but I still have to say you're off base a bit on '98. The nice thing about Win '98 is MS had the product out for so long, they did quite a few revisions to it, improving things like USB support and networking capabilities. The original '98 release might not have been spectacular, but most people I know found that '98 "Second Edition" was about as good as Windows ever got, before changing to the NT-based design found in 2000 and XP.
When they did the Windows Millenium version, THAT'S where they really blew it. All they did was add fluff, plus a half-broken system to roll-back to previous system states that ends up slowing the whole thing down.
I don't know how you can claim Windows '95 was superior to '98, when it lacked USB support completely, had very little native device driver support by comparison, didn't support Internet Connection Sharing or even support for internal ISDN modems (no native support for bonding multiple 64K "B" data channels together), and a slew of other things.
I don't understand how 3 percent of all Google users are Mac folks, yet in the last 6 months every airport I've been through has been filled with those glowing Apple logos :)
I'm sure the numbers are honest, there just seem to be a ton (more than three percent) of Mac guys and gals running around.
If it works, and you are happy with it, why change?
You could probably run NT4, if it supports your hardware, at a reasonable speed, but W2000 and XP both really need 256 Mb of RAM to function happily.
98SE is fine as is. Sure, it doesn't have month long up-times, but on a stable machine with fixed hardware, why not just carry on?
Of course you could run a Linux distribution on it. With that spec machine look forward to glacial response from the desktop.
Operating Systems have a limited lifespan - don't tell me you hadn't noticed? RedHat doesn't support every single distribution they've ever compiled, and there's a reason for that: it's not the way the software industry works.
Sure, there are lots of people out there using Win98 still. Heck, there are still people using Win95! But can you really expect a company to invest in support for a product that is 3 generations out of date? For each OS a company (regardless of whether they're Microsoft, RedHat or Apple) it is necessary to have a testing environment, testing staff, developers, marketing, and who knows what else. Microsoft currently support Windows ME, 2000, 2003 and XP. Surely that's an impressive amount of supported products?
Or perhaps we should demand they support everything they make forever. You never know, there might be one or two Windows 3.1 users out there who still want hotfixes released. I have some DOS 3 floppy disks lying around, surely I'm entitled to lifetime support for these!
Typically enough though, this is Slashdot - every decision by Microsoft has to be wrong, evil, unthinkably unfair. And the link to linux under the word "switch" is a good example of how biased this site has become. After all, I don't see the same level of screaming about me being forced to switch my RedHat 7.0 and 8.0 boxes over to Red Hat Enterprise Linux... surely that is a far more shameful lack of support?
Now the answer is simple. That unused copy of Windows 98 doesn't work any more as it is riddled with unfixable security holes. Also I can't make a copy of the latest MS Windows as it requires registration. (Thanks again MS for saving me the trouble of defending my aversion to copying proprietary software!)
Full steam ahead for a Debian installation.
Why does everyone make a big stink and bi0tch at Microsoft for doing something like this? Very few companies provide any support at all for old versions of products. Many will cease support old versions the very instant a new version comes out, and will tell its users to upgrade to the newest version if they want support.
Microsoft, on the other hand, provides support for it's software for five (?) years, even after it's been succeeded by Windows 2000/XP!
I don't know if this is still true but I always found Windows 98 faster then Win2K and WinXP for games... It's probably because theres much less overhead. Does this mean no more DirectX support for Windows98?
Except that, Red Hat's source is open. If you have a computer that runs Red Hat 6, you can support yourself indefinitely. You cannot do that with WIndows 98. You will be required to upgrade to have support with Microsoft's OS. You should think about what I said before you mouth off like an idiot.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. (Einstein)
The post didn't mention RedHat so why bring it up? You say your not a MS booster but yet this is exactly what they do. Ignore the facts and then try to draw attention to some other problem, in this case RedHat. This is about the Lamest arguement one can make.
"Stating obvious, that should have been part of main story summary..."
No it should NOT have been part of the main story. What does some OS that probably less than 0.05% of users have to do with an OS that almost 30% of the world uses?
The end of updates for 98 is a BIG deal that affects millions of users. Personally I'm not blaming MS either, but at least I'm not trying to take some popshot at say... Amiga users for No reason.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
Newer is not ALWAYS better!! Just look at winamp? I have no plans on giving up my winamp 2.90. Windows 98? Yeah, i agree, it sucked. I dumped that OS as soon as i got the thing. NT Pro treated me so well for so many years...
98SE was not bad at all. It was definitely the best of the 9x kernel versions.
Pop Up Mini-Tarts was not bad at all. It was definatly the best of the midget-porn videos out there.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
I found win98 to be much better than winME.
If my answers frighten you, stop asking scary questions.
Wake me when Windows ME is EOLed, where EOLed means ''Operation: The Last Blue Screen'' ("Strike-teams are moving in on all known installations, carrying with them a suitable set of military hardware to facilitate termination.")
Belief is the currency of delusion.
I have a default image which allows me to setup a brand new computer with XP and all the updates, all necessary utilities, media players, development environment, web authoring programs, office 2003 in about 25 minutes. Go google ghost and sysprep so you can see how the pros do it biatch.
they still don't even compare to OS X
I think this is an exaggeration.. I can't complain about stability and usablity on my XP box. It never crashes by itself like Windows 9x did, it's very usable for everything I use it for (and that's quite a lot), plug & play support is pretty much unbeatable (at least give a few examples of hardware that Windows XP doesn't support properly even if the hardware supports plug & play). You only have a point with security. And that's why I think you're exaggerating...
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Really, who actually calls Microsoft for support anymore? It's both expensive and usually an act of futility. Even the non-computer savvy usually call Dell or whoever they bought their PCs from instead.
The real problem is there will be no new patches and maybe old patches will no longer be available from windows update. The big reason it's a problem is people *won't* upgrade just because of this. Most hardly care about patches now, but may at least be coaxed into running windows update now and again.
This won't push the holdouts over to XP (which they probably don't even have a new enough computer to run well) - it'll just result in even *more* unpatched trojan-friendly PC out there.
Hmm..
Quite a few people still use Windows 98. I wonder if someone could make some money by doing third-party support of Windows98.
It would be a bit hard to roll out patches as a third-party, but if you supplied people with some sort of firewall package (to shield users from security holes that can't be patched otherwise) and migrated MSIE/Outlook Express users over to Mozilla, it seems like something that could be done.
Windows Media Player users could also be migrated to Winamp.. Pretty much anything that wouldn't be Microsoft supported could be replaced with still-developed Open Source alternatives.
It seems like businesses who don't have their own IT department and run a lot of Win98 PCs who have no other need to upgrade could benefit from this.
This can't be good for the WINE developers.
Isn't there a provision of the DMCA that allows one to LEGALLY hack/crack/reverse engineer discontinued or End-Of-Life products? Does this apply to Win98?
Oh, sorry, Winamp isn't Open Source (or is it?).
This Page seems to have a list of Open Source media players (and other applications as well)
Do Win98 users really need official support from MS? I know nothing about M$ world, but if it is anything like the Mac world, then there should be a healthy range of thriving independent online support forums for obsolete hardware and software (You can even get support for ancient 68k Macs at places like Applefritter and 68k Mac Liberation Army. Official support from the official vendor is not really needed as long as someone out there has the answer to your question or can help point you in the right direction.
The only reason a computer user needs "official" support is if they have a pinhead boss or are worried about patches for security holes...... Oh, I see the problem now. Even so Win98 should be "usable" for decades to come if its users form a devoted community that provides mutual support.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
yeah, my grandparents will be recompiling their Red Hat 6 kernel on their own from now! sheesh...
Open Source or not, you have no argument.
-my other sig is your mom
Yeah, it's old. I think we phased 98 sometime in '99 (coming from WFW 3.11, thank you :). 2003 would have been the fifth year which is at most the depreciable time. I personally like to depreciate software (for business) over 3 years.
:) -- in comes OS X and Linux.
:)
Fortunately 98 was replaced with 2K and it too is being phased out thankfully. Of course being phased in is a cross platform layout (for security of course
Good think Netware & Linux still run the datacenters. Whew (!) Funny, but unlike Microsoft software other companies products you still want to run after completely paid for. I'm STILL finding Netware 3.12 servers scattered among clients.
Fact is, 98SE is second only to XP. 2000 (when I used it) was buggy and bloated.
Well, we've had the exact opposite experience. I didn't start using Win2k until after SP2 was already released, so I can't comment on it's initial stability. But after using XP at Work, and on various siblings and friends computers, I'd have to say that Win2K beats it hands down.
And it's not that Win XP is crash prone. But in the past 20 months of using Win2k on my home built computer I've had 2 non-recoverable lockups and 2 bluescreens (both BSOD's were caused by buggy logitech gamepad drivers when the gamepad wasn't even being used). And this computer has seen quite a bit of gaming, net surfing, DVD watching, and MP3 playing. Win 2000 is probably the most stable OS Microsoft has ever produced.
Now if Linux can gain enough traction so that big companies begin releasing native supported versions for it, Win 2K would be the last MS OS I'd ever have to buy.
I know that everyone is going to this is all just a ploy by M$ to force people to upgrade to newer, expensive software (and is almost certainly so), but no software company is required to support obsolete versions of their software forever, this is not a reasonable idea. The /.'ers frothing at the mouth about this are the same ones who are first to also froth about how bad an OS Windows 98 is.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Win98 was the most gawdawful OS I think I've ever used. W95 was more stable,
You are suffering from either (a) delusions; or (b) hardware problems.
This is no longer the case. Instead hardware designers will be required to get bogged down in driver developement, just to get the first few bits into and out of their systems. In my limited experience with MS Windows driver development, DDK information is 'restricted' and 'quick and dirty' tests are no longer possible.
It looks like I will be learning how to write a linux device driver (or reverting to a DOS replacement).
Damn right.. for example, I cannot afford any sort of hardware upgrades at the moment, in fact, being unemployed for 3+ years, I don't even have a working mouse or sound.. yes, I'm lame and need a job.. boohoo.. I'm looking
There are several issues with that:
* First, as others have mentioned, this may imply buying a new computer. Yes, US$200 can buy a computer well capable of running Windows XP. That is not much for a typical US household. A poor student in a third world country may have more of a problem.
* Some software, that runs on Windows 98, does not run successfully on Windows XP (and especially on Windows 2000). Sure, such software is usually woefully written but, if users rely on it, so what?
* Windows 98 SE came out in various language versions. In many cases, equivalent comfort levels for non English speakers are not readily available in Windows 2000 or XP. While the NT based systems allow input and output of the appropriate characters, this is not the same as having menus and error messages in ones native language. With 2000 and XP, multilingual user interface packs exist for many of the languages with specific language Windows 98 versions. These packs are only available to corporate customers.
* There is the cost of buying the new Windows version.
Obviously, Microsoft's priority is to make the maximum amount of money. Fair enough. But, the users need to consider how to get the functionality they need at minimum long term cost. If they need to change their operating system and some of their other software, perhaps they should consider an operating system that allows them to keep their existing hardware and that is less likely to require disruptive changes in the future.
I believe that 98 is still the most used OS, that the 27%-35% that it has exceeds that of any of the other variants. If not, it's close. It's odd for a product to become a non-entity when it's at the top of the heap.
For example, if you develop software for home or school use, you are cutting your throat if it won't run on 98, but MS won't help you keep a 98 machine to test that it works for those 50 million potential users. Yecch!
Slashdot ate my less than sign. Sorry. Should read:
Actually, I think that was Minix. AFAIK, Linux never ran on an x86 where x < 3.
Fellowship 9/11
Support yourself? Sounds like lack of support to me... sounds like you are trying to justify Red Hat's position by saying that open source is The Answer.
But what's with the lack of driver support? Sounds like it's 50/50 wherever you go. But I'm the idiot, you know, wanting my webcam and scanner to work with my OS.
evil adrian
Tell me how to upgrade to OS X for no cost then for the average 32MB 266mhz Intel laptop with a 5GB drive that several of my friends have?
A bunch of people do nothing more than use a word processor. Many don't even use a browser or even HAVE Internet (My mom, dad, 2 aunts, and sister for five off the top of my head).
I just built 3 laptops for them for FREE from discarded old laptops at work. 233 or 333 mhz with 32MB to 64MB each. They are happy with them, and I won't have to do support.
I initially put W2K on them but performance in 64MB (much less 32MB) sucked. So they got W98se and haven't had a lick of trouble.
Win98 has its place.... better than WinME. No new hardware needed.
They really should make a law that forces software companies to release the source code of products that are no longer supported - at least for bugfixes. Scenario: There is a new bug found in an old software that is no longer supported. The owner of the buggy code has 2 options; a) fix it and release the patches for the compiled code. b) release the source code of the faulty software (under GPL or whatever) so others can do so.
++K
<[letter kay][at][number seventy seven][dot][finnish TLD]>
Did you actually use Win95 out of the box?
Quite extensively in fact with much of my time in sleep medicine (due to the software's availability on that platform).
Methinks you don't remember the days of Win3.11 and DLL hell, either.
My time with Win 3.11 was mercifully short. I abandoned it as soon as my new Macintosh (at the time) came in.
2000 (when I used it) was buggy and bloated.
I must admit that my W2k box was later on in the OS cycle and I found it to be much more stable than W98. Of course there were still problems with it (no OS is perfect), but W9x OS's crashed on me more than twice a day. W2k would go a week or more before I had to reboot.
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
blah blah blah...
Yes, MS should go open source or support all their commercial software ever made for an eternity. Like all other companies making commercial software on this planet. Otherwise they suck. That's your logic, right? *sigh* Yeah, that would obviously be the best, and also just another waste of time by posting about personal dreams and utopias on Slashdot.
Does this mean Microsoft Bob isn't supported anymore either?
" Anyone who is happy with Windows 98 should not be required to upgrade just because Microsoft can't be bothered to support a product they created and sold to end users."
They've dropped 98 support because of a Sun lawsuit over Java, not because "Microsoft can't be bothered to support a product they created and sold to end users." Of course that point was left out of the post in favor of blatant pro-linux bia.
Vote for Pedro
the aqrticle text is lying to an extent..
you CAN pay for windows 98 support. simply hire someone that is very good with it. there is a 99.997% chance that that person that does not have access to the source code will be able to solve your problem.
I just absolutely love the fearmongering that Microsoft and it's supporters fling about... nothing like keeping your users in fear to make them upgrade.
If W98 works for you, dont upgrade. only a fool thinks that MS support is worth anything.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
While this is clearly a forced death march to XP Home including the double-sized hardware you then need as a result - I have to wonder if 9x hasn't already run out of things to break? Break/Fix for 9x has GOT to be pretty damn stable.
Ok but you make a good point Glasshoppah. Now all the printers and MP3 devices and CDRW/DVD writers won't be supported in uplevels.
Well I still have lots of Win95 laying around and I was going to upgrade to win98SE just to clean up the decades worth of patches and mismatched DLL's. Looks like I'll just add some RAM and go to W2K instead. I already have that CD laying around. There is probably only one old machine in my house that can't run W2K at all so I'll leave that Win95 until it explodes.
Because W98OSS would compete with XP home, but on the other hand it would divert consumer attention away from Linux.
So, is it worth (to them) creating a competitor for their domestic product if it also subtracts some effort from Linux, which competes with their server market, primarily?
the only member of my family who still uses windows 98 is my gran. Quite frankly if it was good for my gran when she bought it, it will be good for her in ten years time. When your only using it for word processing and solitaire, and your grandson won't install internet access for you, theres very little that would need MS support anyway.
For older hardware, this is not an option as winxp requires far more resources than win98.
I have a dell laptop. It's a 300mhz pentium 2 and had 128 megs of RAM in it, and it ran windows 98... poorly. So I put 256 more megs of PC100 RAM in (that's what it takes... total cost: $20 on sale at the wiz closing event) and installed XP. Then I turned off eye candy. Now it runs beautifully.
...and that's all there is to it.
"Anyone who is happy with Windows 98 should not be required to upgrade just because Microsoft can't be bothered to support a product they created and sold to end users."
If they're happy with it, then where's this force thing you're talking about?
"Derp de derp."
In most cases expensive tech support is not needed anyways. If the user has even a slight bit of knowledge, they'll run a search (Google anyone?) on their issue, and easily come up with the solution... Oh wait... we're talking about typical Windows users.
But the /. community seems to be once again forgetting... we're a very small slize of the whole of people that actually use a computer.
a very small slice.
For most people, rebooting Win9x is just fine for them, becuase they use their machines for fucking around for an hour a day. It works, they know how to use it, its got solitare.
These people are not only afraid of fucking something up by installing a new Windows OS on their machine, but they're simply afraid of doing it, period. People fear their machines; and if the elves in the magic box are still willing to work, well, we just dont want to fuck that up.
Then consider the fact that for many people, paying $300 or $200 or $100 or even only $40 to upgrade their operating system is simply more money than they [ can afford | are willing ] to spend on their computer.
On top of that, they probably werent even aware there was support for Win98 in the first place.
i'm just sayin.
s'wut i sed.
No, because redhat is open source he does have an argument.
unofficial redhat patches nr. 1
unofficial redhat patches nr. 2
Now, where are those unofficial windows patches?
The original '98 release might not have been spectacular, but most people I know found that '98 "Second Edition" was about as good as Windows ever got, before changing to the NT-based design found in 2000 and XP.
I upgraded from W95 to W98 and had an awful time with W98. It was much slower and very unstable compared with W95. (crashed twice as often as W95 on my machines at least) My next Wintel systems were W2k boxes and I missed the whole WME debaucle.
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
OSX as an upgrade for win9x on x86 hardware? Wrong platform. Thanx for another slashApple ad. You were right about other options even though OSX isn't one of them.
All these posts about the "idiots who use windows 98 should be shot" or "they should all switch to linux so they can fix their own bugs" is stupid and it misses the point. People who use windows 98 have old computers. They would buy a nice shiny new computer but they don't have the money or desire. They could find a pirate copy of windows xp but their hardware couldn't handle it. Support for windows 98 has gone on a long time. I'd rather the time be put into longhorn development to make it more stable and secure than time put into patching windows 98.
And these people aren't going to switch to linux. Didn't you see that 1% piece of the pie? I found suse and mandrake to seem a lot slower than windows xp on my p4 1.8 so I don't think on older pentium 2 hardware anyone's going to enjoy the performance of kde over windows 98.
Yeah, a lot of people here spend a lot of their time on computers. They love to hunt out bugs and recompile their kernels. But a lot of people don't and it's very elitest to put them down for doing so. Just because you're gentoo installation runs 8% faster than my windows xp installation, doesn't mean you'll have anymore insight into how computers work for people.
Now wait a minute. Microsoft has repeatedly told us that the only reason they kept adding features that became obvious security holes later is because customers demand it. So the only reason they can be dropping win 98 is because nobody wants it any more. And that 27% still using it? Obvious lies! Anti-Microsoft trolling!
Please Microsoft, ignore these Godless devils and keep up the good work. I want software that is bigger, slower and prone to Blaster! Wrap that browser even tighter into the OS; fuck DOJ! Drop Win98! If they wanna run some wimpy, lean, efficient OS let them run Linux! oh, uh, errr, wait...
Open source is not the answer.
And your statement denotes that you have it? In that case, take a deep breath and...well, you would know what to do I presume, oh Lord of all Oracles?
Now piss off an re-install Wintendo; it's been a month and it's already slowed to a crawl!
Well, do you?
I am a Mozilla Firebird user myself, but nevertheless, I'd like to know if I can download IE 5.5 for Win95 from somewhere. My wife still has a Win95 computer, and there is no real need to change that state, except for a possible browser upgrade. Firebird would be a bit slow on that machine, and I just noticed that I don't have a local copy of IE 5.5/Win9x.
On a completely tangential note: since RedHat 9 will become unsupported at the end of this coming April, I wonder if any Linux support company will benefit from the fact. With Linux being opensource and all that jazz, I would hope the model would live up to the expectations.
Sigged!
I would be happy if M$ dropped support for everything they ever made. It would just speed up their demise. I'm tired of everyone wanting me to fix their Window's machines every time I turn around. Heck, I dont even use M$ software. I've been using Mac, Linux and Freedos for years.
From second link:
The initial minimum subscription length is six months.
--
The subscription rate is $5 per machine per month; or a flat rate of $2,500 per month for unlimited machines. To take advantage of the unlimited access rate, you must use your own mirrored repository to deploy the updates internally to your organization's machines.
WTF? Do one need to subscribe and pay them to get flaws in the software fixed? Who on earth would like to do that after being used to apply free patches from Windows Update?
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Why would MS open up the source code so that it forks out into incompatible versions? If you want to make an operating system and make it open source that's your choice. If MS wants to keep it closed that's their business model. Keeping it closed isn't all about money no matter how much you'd like to think you have some kind of argument. Windows 98 has nothing left to fix. If it hasn't been discovered in 6 years there's no point wasting money on waiting for something to show up.
Windows 98's only problem is that it doesn't support the latest and greatest. It would require massive rewritting of code to get that support. And MS conviently provides such a rewrite: WindowsXP and 2000.
So why in the world would they open source something that's finished just so other people can add support to compete with newer products?
Think about it. They're not opening up 3.x why would they open up 98? They've got a team of lawyers that could name lots of reasons. Many of which don't have to do with money and more to do with our friend "liability."
Ben
Work Safe Porn
"But they still don't even compare to OS X in terms of stability, usability, security and plug and play compatibility."
And game availability...
"Derp de derp."
good because we don't want you.
You forgot to mention we're the most productive though. and how many billions we give to other countries in aid. and freedom of speech isn't limited to what you like. And we have 300 years of history because 300 years ago we were all being kicked out of other countries that were a lot worse than us. How many people would die right now to come to your country and live with your laws?
Microsoft doesn't give support.
Some headaches sounds more appropriate here. Lot of headaches would be saved if switch is made to Linux.
Anyone who's happy with Windows 98 obviously doesn't use Windows 98 very much. Use it for more than half an hour! Did it crash? Yes? If it didn't, you obviously have a virus.
Can I join you to go downhill and get moderated as off-topic? Thanks!
and the Last Crusade is said to not work on newer hardware.
That's not true. I popped a 120MB drive with Win3.11 installed into my 700Mhz Duron and it played just fine.
I've never seen Windows load so fast.
Ben
Work Safe Porn
Open source is the answer. If the source is available, you can 1) write your own drivers, or repair problems that appear with the OS after official support ends; 2) pay another person to provide you with support; or 3) a combination of the two. Without the source, you can do none of the above, and must upgrade if you want support. The fact that any given scanner and webcam don't work with the OS is a minor impediment, at best, as is evidenced by the thousands of drivers available for hardware in Linux, for example, that do not have official drivers for Linux. Winmodems, for crying out loud, many of them anyway, have drivers for Linux. This is a direct consequence of open source.
Microsoft addicted those users to Windows 98, and is responsible for their care and feeding. If they don't feel they can do it profitably, then they should release the source for the OS so that others can provide them with support that Microsoft won't. Ford may not officially support repairs on the '65 Mustang anymore, but the open nature of vehicles generally makes a huge, huge after-market economy possible. Hell, even if Microsoft doesn't open the source via any FSF-compatible license, they could easily both make a ton of extra money, and foster a huge after-market profit source for a new sector of the tech economy by making the source available. Whatever way you look at it, it's a mistake, and there are better ways for Microsoft to handle it.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. (Einstein)
Wasn't the an article posted within the last month? This is a way to force corporate desktops into XP or 2k. That's where the real money is anyway. Mom and Pop pay once for the os, the business world has MIS depts or pays support. Great way to insure migration.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Win95 wasn't nearly as bloated as later versions. I was impressed to see it run on a 386 with 4mb of ram with minimal problems and a fast response speed. But I found Win98SE to be quite stable and user friendly, although bloated, and was only forced to upgrade when I wanted to install Visual Studio .NET. It even came with a stripped down version of IIS, Personal Web Server, which they took out of XP Home.
I think they felt they put too much into Win98. Possibly done to encourage people to upgrade to 2000 or XP Pro, a quick trip to Windows Update with a Win98 PC will now impair it so that you can no longer install Personal Web Server from the Windows install CD, requiring you to manually find and install an additional update, or upgrade to a newer version of Windows.
I think a good idea is to rip win98 out and slap togher a ltsp terminal server and using the old win98 boxes for linux terminal clients, atleast at schools and offices. Since ltsp clients need not hds nor maintanance on the client they are essentially mainanance free. All config and updating etc is done centrally and that should save a boundle.
For schools this is a perfect solution atleast where 99% of the computertime is word processing and information gathering. I personally think it would work splendid at many businessess to.
HTTP/1.1 400
Everyone complains that Microsoft is so evil and such a monopoly, then they buy their product anyway and bitch when the government steps in and tells Microsoft they need to stop shipping windows 98 cuz they broke antitrust laws or some garbage. I say, pick a side and shutup.
as a user who upgrades/builds his computer himself rather then buying entire new ones, i dont get the privilege of a new shiny OS whenever i upgrade unless i shell out the extra cash, which i dont. so i've been using windows 98 for a long time now and never had any problems using it. but now without the security updates and whatnot from microsoft, i feel using windows 98 could start to become a problem.
i guess im pretty cheep cause i still dont want to buy windows XP, i've used linux before, i've got a harddrive sitting around here with slackware on it, and ive used mandrake before for a while, but i stoped because i bought all this stuff for a wireless network and after it was all setup i found out the chipset on my card, the broadcom 4301 doesnt have linux drivers, a group on sourceforge was trying to create some, but all they have that possibly could work is a link to another website which have driver wrappers which people claim they have gotten the drivers to run on linux.
ill give the driver wrapper a shot, even though i dont know much about linux. if it works, i can switch to linux but if it doesnt, well im cheap and will probably stay on windows 98
Tm
Support TBI Research: http://www.raisinhope.org
... don't you?
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
The reason they'll be forced to is because if they don't, within a year putting your win98 box on the internet means it bluescreening instantly from viruses. Blaster caused enough havok, what if a script kiddie can creat new blasters? There are tons of win98 boxes still running, not patching them may creat a gigantic hemmorage for the internet itself.
As for redhat, you can upgrade for free. Most of the time, upgrading a linux cluster means you get one machine, test out the kernel and whatnot on it for a week or so, and if it works you update the rest of the cluster. Besides, althogh I am a novice with linux I really don't see any reason why you wouldn't want to update your software unless you are lazy.
And finally, why don't you give the flaming a rest? It does nothing but offend the parent poster and creat a bunch of nitpicky people. We're all in this together remember, it's better if you make peace with people than tear their heads off.
Candy-Coated Knowledge
Trying to switch from 98 to OS X in like switching from a 44 Colt to a rifle.
You could stick with the Colt but its only useful for short range action (best to unplug your machine from the net) whereas the rifle is good for most kinds of combat and long range action...
Now just find a nice spot and wait for the head of Microshaft to enter you scope of your new machine... and blow his fucking brains all over the front lawn, then run up with your newly aquired access card and enter the cancerous heart of software hell.
Now say hi to the security guard on the front desk... the dumb shmuck will still be trying to work out who Bill Gates is bringing a rifle to work... then pop (His brain doesn't splatter as much as Bills - not as brainy you see)
Reach behind the counter and grab his shot gun, then stalk from room to room pumping round upon round into the backs off fleeing staff (Remember, no prisoners and noone is innocent soldier)
You'll come to a big door that cannot be oened without a yellow key (use your access card from before to open it) and inside you will find.......
Arrrrrrrr..........
They've found me..........
Can't type..........
Bulletttttttttttt iiiiiinnnnnnn bbbbbaaaaaacccckkkkkkk......
That really hurt man............
seeeeennnnndddddd buttonnnnnnnnnn>>>>>>........
'nuff said.
I have yet to meet anyone for whom 98 meets their needs. The 95/98/Me kernel is just so bad, and so prone to crashing it is a complete waste of time. As someone who is pretty middle-of-the-road on Linux vs. MS, I will tell you that these OS are nowhere near as stable as 2k/XP.
---
Take it sleazy,
-The Shockmaster
BE-OS is the wave of the future!
"Hey, Bob! They finally pulled the plug on Win98!"
"Oh, thank GOD!"
"...But we still have to deal with the multitude of terrible bugs and insecurities with IE and Outlook express."
"I thought I told you to never speak of such things again!!" *slaps Bob across the face*
Here's who cares!!!
I just got a copy of my 2003 income tax software, which I will run on Windows 98SE. Each year I must buy a new program for the new tax year.
How long will it be until Intuit will no longer provide tax software that runs on Windows 98?
Then I will be faced with Hobson's choice of ceasing to do my taxes on the computer(no choice), or doing a crash upgrade to Microsoft's latest crapware, just to do my taxes.
By the way, Intuit seems to be giving a gentle hint. They are giving away a free copy of Corel Draw with the tax program.
You guessed it, the freebie only runs on Windows XP or 2000!!!
This why I have nothing but white hot fear, hatred and loathing for Microsoft!!! And it will not go away just because Microsoft adds a few "features" and fixes a few more bugs or security holes in that proverbial "next release"!
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Get it right /.
Out of work for over 3 years? Why? You either need to get some new skills/education, lower your standards and take what is out there (maybe even something temporary) or move somewhere you can find a job. Maybe you need some serious resume/cover letter (if you aren't getting interviews) and/or interview skill coaching (if you are getting interviews but not getting the job) or something. There is really no reason for being out of work that long if you really are looking.
isn't there a stanza that requires that when microsoft wishes to terminate the liscence you must destroy all copies of said software(windows 98) and delete it off your hard drive? i mean, really who actually reads and follows eula, but isn't this a reason to switch somewhere else? I Thought that microsoft had cancelled all the win98 liscences long ago, mabye about a year ago, but if i was mistaken and they are doing it just now, perhaps that could be right too(i was trying to set my modem/internet account up with local telco sasktel, and they told me that they would not even set an account up for me unless i had something higher than windows 98...and i was running either dos shell on top of MSDOS 6.2 or windows 3.1 ...).
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
Make way for DRM ... world, and watch the masses reconsider Microsoft.
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
From the Article:
Extended Support: June 30, 2002 - January 16, 2004 (Extended hotfix support ends June 30, 2003. After January 16, 2004, this product will be obsolete and assisted support will no longer be available from Microsoft. Online self-help support will continue to be available until at least June 30, 2006.)
Does "online self-help support" include security fixes? Who knows, there's certainly no useful contextual information.
According to the link in the main slashdot article, if you look at when Windows ME expires, it says December 31st of 2004.
That would mean that by this time next year, all non Windows NT based operating systems will be officially dead. Thank god.
~~~
Oh, wait -- they're not forced to upgrade!
Wait until you ask for an XP activation code after MS has end-of-lifed it.
-------- This space intentionally left blank --------
I know Windows ME was a bit of a flop in order to hold manufacturer's over until XP came out, but I would imagine it had a greater percentage than 1%.
Could they have just included ME in 98's group? I at least find it surprising that so many people still use it (even if it was MS's best OS!)
I want to make a local archive of all service packs (IE6 SP1, any subsequent security updates, as well as the latest service pack and security updates for Win98SE itself). However, all the download links at microsoft.com seem to give you a small program that, when run, downloads the rest of the service pack itself without giving you the chance to save it as a separate file for later installation across multiple machines.
Does anyone know how to get around that? I have to assume that those "setup" programs will cease to function after January 16, leaving me with no way to patch any future Win98SE installations.
Fire up VMWare or Bochs, install Windows 98 with everything on it. Download and install all the patches. Copy that VM--you now have a fully (to date) patched master copy. If you're feeling really ambitious, grab all the updates from the Corporate Windows Update site (which naturally requires IE) and burn a CD or two of them.
Call (206) 338-5780 COLLECT for information about a genuine BA, BS, MA, MS, MBA, or Ph.D.
I the unfortunate person in the family that has to fix friends/familys computers, and 90% of them still use 98. How would one go about saving all the win98 updates? Can it bee done if i don't have a machine running 98?
for every two years, support one more year of your software. Microsoft would be supporting stuff back to around win 3.1. this way, software producing entities want to think really hard before they release a -stable version, to ensure that it is what they will want for a long time, plus, it encourages more and more such forward planning, as time goes onward, and of course leaves room (if gpl is involved) for progress to happen via forks. why do i say this? because the longer you are in existance, the more you should be able to handle supporting backwards compatibility and forwards-looking in this way. i don't expect people to be able to support everything, but as time goes on, mabye we can expect more support. on the other hand, microsoft can rot in hell, so i really don't care what they do with their liscence/software...because sooner or later they will go bankrupt, and be over-turned as a company,...mabye not within my lifetime, but eventually, but open software will always remain if it is needed.x
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
Hey, January 16 is my birthday. Way to go Bill. Thanks for a great pressie.
Does this mean that new peripherals such as printers will not be compatible with Windows 98? I guess those that write printer drivers or suchlike need help from MS, or at least need the option to get help from MS.
everyone would be going- who gives a f***
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
I still have IE trying to download stuff on my Windows Server 2003 laptop all the time
You sure you are running Server 2003? M$ essentially shut off IE on 2K3, and they practically tell you shouldn't be running 2K3 if you want to use the browser.
Maybe you are talking about Windows Update, not the browser.
Imagine how much harder physics would be if electrons had feelings! -Feynman, maybe
That's great, if your having a problem per say. I don't think there are really many people out there who have called microsoft twice. On the other hand I don't think there is anyone out there who has used a Microsoft product and only had 1 problem they weren't able to figure out themselves. Microsoft support is garbage anyway, everyone goes to third parties.
The only thing people go to microsoft for is Updates and security patches. Those require the source.
How old?
I happily had XP running on my Dual PII 350@400 (only one PII 350 in some cases).
And that was with FULL visual effects etc.
You just don't get it. In the free software world, you never depend on a single company for support because you don't need to. The software that RedHat distributes is the same software that hundreds of other companies distribute. The nice thing about Redhat 7.3 is that I can download a new kernel if I want to without depending on Redhat. In fact, any part of Redhat can be updated without depending on Redhat or any other company. The game rules in the free software world are different, stop trying to play with the old rules.
ayottesoftware.com
Home users don't get free support from MS even on supported products. Maybe two free calls with the license but that's it, you have to pay for the rest.
They might get free unlimited support from their OEMs but I expect most OEMs stopped supporting 98 ages ago already.
Get XP or Win2k, they're a lot more stable than Windows 98. You can properly kill off tasks with no fuss and they come with NTFS which is a much more rugged filesystem than FAT32.
I moved to Windows 2000 as soon as I possibly could back in the days when I ran Windows as my desktop. Windows 98 was a nightmare once you had a config problem.
Okay, well I've got several kids games (for the kids) and one or two older strategy games that just won't work on Win2K - anyone know if the W98 emulation setting on WinXPHome shortcuts works with old, "dirty" (peek and poke, is my guess) code?
From MSDN Subscriber downloads:
drat it, I was so worked up about correcting a piece of misinformation that I introduced a piece of my own:
Full virtual-mode addressing (enabled by the existance of a hardware Memory Management Unit (MMU) ) allows PROTECTED MEMORY, not Preemptive Multitasking (although the two are related.)
What is the difference between a small revolutionary change and a large evolutionary change?
Looking for older versions of IE for your older machines? Check out evolt's archive of old broswers. They even have 16-bit versions of Netscape and IE.
The pathes for Windows are unavailble. Did you read the article? How can you pay for something that does not exists?
ayottesoftware.com
Flimsy reasoning. They could easily send out a patch which deinstalls the MSJVM. Furthermore, Win98 EOL was announced back in 1999, long before this Sun thing was settled.
There was a huge difference between Win98 and Win98SE (second edition); which did you use, out of curiousity?
Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
When I install windows 98, and get MSIE 4, I have the upgrade burned to CD, for MSIE 6, and that takes about 10 minutes to install. Trick is, don't set up an internet connection until you do the upgrade, or the upgrade installer will try and phone home. (hundreds of times, if you let it.). I also have Netscape 4.79, and MozillaFirebird, Eudora, and Pegasus, to round out the installation of Windows 98. I always have Linux, usually Redhat, or perhaps SuSE, or Debian, and Mandrake on the box also. I use a menu to select the OS on bootup, and if already in Windows 98, I have Icons on the desktop to run linux.bat/loadlin for the distro I want.
Windows 98 closes, and my Linux boots up.
I can just use the original Windows 98 for that, without any upgrades, but I like to compare the Linux distro's to Windows 98 on the same box. Windows 98 does a fair job, still. I always run a firewall on it to be safe if going online. For Linux, I like Firestarter firewall.
Where's the gun to the head?
...
Is in the hands of the PHB who thinks (by reading this news piece) future use of Windows 98 is forbidden. Oh, did you know that most computers are run within corporations?
But no, instead of reasoning with your brain, you are going to play the part of the anti-Micro"$"oft troll.
I believe that the one letting his brain collecting dust is someone else
You are comparing Red Hat EOL with Microsoft's? They are in very differnt leagues. Any company (heck, if I even wanted to I could do it) can pick up RH source code (it's GPL, you know, as Windows 98 is NOT) and start providing support (that type of support that PHBs love so much and makes them sleep comfy: phone calls, patches, etc with a nice and elevated price).
Can you do that with any Microsoft product? No. Will Microsoft release a patch for the (100% probabilities to appear) next big Worm for Windows 98? No. Will you have a patch for IE? No. Can a company provide those for you? Even if they had all the fscking money in the world they certainly would have a fat chance in hell on doing it. Answer: YOU ARE FSCKED UP.
Heck, the answer isn't even to release the source code to the wild (a solution expressed by many slashdotters and that I, personally, think is the best for the users), just release the source to a support company (Norton/Symantec, McAfee, CA, anyone) under a huge non-disclosure agreement and let them provide a few patches for a few $$$. Is it so hard? I think, yes, because it goes against the "whole world domination plan" that's the real long term goal of Microsoft.
Life isn't like a box of chocolates. It's more like a jar of jalapenos. What you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
The ammount of actual windows 98 users is likely much less then 27%.
Although I use Linux and this really doesn't concern me 5 years of support for a commercial software package seems quite reasonable.
"You're just grabbing at straws trying to find things to bitch about regarding Microsoft. Red Hat drops support WAY sooner than Microsoft ever does (it's been 5 years for Windows 98 -- Redhat discontinued support for Redhat 7.3 at the end of last year and that's way newer than Windows 98.)" There are a lot of posts regarding the fact that Linux companies don't support as long as Microsoft, but the thing is, if I want to upgrade to Redhat 9 I can just download an ISO or, worst case, buy the OS for $40. If, on the other hand, I want to upgrade to Windows XP, it's going to cost me over $150, plus a lot more in hardware upgrades.
Since 98 is going to be abandoned, I suspect some people will be installing Windows ME on that old hardware. Does anyone know of ways to srip ME down so it's somewhere near as efficient as 98?
I had a lot of problems with ME on this one machine; despite boosting its RAM to 512 megabytes, after running for a matter of minutes it consistently slowed to a crawl. Running RAM Idle helped things considerably, letting me leave the machine running and only needing to reboot occasionally. Still, this was on a machine with a 700 MHz processor, and I shudder to think how ME would perform on a poor little 200 MHz with 64M.
There's a market for a program that will give people choices on what to rip out of ME to reduce its profile. Anyone game?
If you say that WinXP is not prone to crash, then what's the problem? In your experience, has XP crashed more or less than 2000? I've been using XP since it came out in 01, and it hasn't crashed on me yet. This includes using alternate shells. I used 2000 before it had any service packs and it was nasty, but XP worked terrific out of the box.
Anyway, as it stands now, 2000 and XP are almost equal; I would say that XP has better performance, but I've got an XP 2000, 512MB RAM and a nice vid card so 1% (or whatever) of performance gain is moot.
Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
Since all the support files will be pulled soon, is there at least a file ( or group of files ) we can collect that contains all the updates/fixes up to this point?
A lot of people wont change.. will be nice to have updates to give them if ( when ) they have to reload..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
That 27% on Google includes Windows Millennium, which is essentially just Windows 98 "Third Edition".
Windows Millennium is still supported and I would guess it probably accounts for at least half of that 27%.
So there.
> Chaz
someones 98 machine breaks down, 98 goes on it, ME breaks down 98 goes on it, 95, and anything which will support it and 98 goes on it. All with my trusty serial number which i can now sucessfully recall from my head starting GVBHF CGCRH........ :-) 2000 i make an exception for beacuse its usually only used when actually needed.
Windows XP re installs should be easy enough for users to do themselves so if they want it they do do it themselves
Slashdot - The one stop shop for procrastination
1. 1
2. No
3. I don't
4. Yes
5. N/A
6. Yes
7. No
8. No
9. No
Windows 98 has largely been ignored by the virus writers for the past two years. The superworms this year that took down my school districts entire network of w2k machines didnt harm the windows 98 machines at all.
I don't see a problem here, who wants to stick with an old technology anyways? Does Microsoft have to support MS DOS 2.0 to? They'll be ruined if they offered a date-unlimited support for every old product that they once had.
I actually got a 286 to run Arachne 1.70 and do some simple surfing, mostly to government weather (text only) sites. Also got a Mac LCII to surf, but had to fix the HDD using a Quadra, then reinstall, to get that to work. All that was like watching bread mold. Good case for a nice Pentium 4 HT, 1GB RAM, 800 mhz bus running XP. That thing runs so fast, it takes your breath away.
How many people would die right now to come to your country and live with your laws?
You obviously have no idea how many of Germany's illegal immigrants from Turkey or Poland risked just that.
And yet not 1 /. article on how Apple users are banding together to sue Apple over faulty iBooks. Nice bias guys.
Give me a fucking break you tool. Just try to get support from Red Hat for RH 5.0. On Slashdot if you criticize your ca. 2000 Linux distro with the 2.2 kernel, you get modded down and told to "get with the program" and stop running such an ancient OS, even though said OS is only the same age as Win 98 and is perhaps even younger. But when Microsoft commits the horrible crime of ALLOWING TIME TO LAPSE, it's like the end of the fucking world. Software gets old and obsolete after a period of time, deal with it. It doesn't matter if the source is available when 99.999% of Win98 users couldn't give half a shit.
Win98 was the worst piece of crap excuse for an OS there ever was, with the possible exception of Win95. It's worse than <= Win3.1 and <= MacOS 9.* because it tried to masquerade as a real OS, with the lamest excuse for preemtive multi-tasking and memory protection ever conceived.
:-)
Now if they could only find a way to permanently remove every single copy in existence and delete all copies of the source code, the world would be a much better place.
I feel better
And we have 300 years of history
In my country we have beers older than that.
I find it to have the best mix of stability, security (with anti-virus and such) and user friendly-ness of most windows OSes. 2000 was primarily server/coprate, ME failed at a basic level. XP is fair, but with an insane number of worms, you doubt microsoft will ever get another winner like 98 in it's day.
SAILING MISHAP
which did you use, out of curiousity?
W98. I was so infuriated with W98 performance, I upgraded to W2k as soon as it became available, and upgraded our software and hardware to XP when those systems became available. I have since moved about 80% of our lab from Wintel to OS X though and I am not looking back.
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
So Win98 users, the VAST VAST MAJORITY of whom do not have a lick of programming skill not to mention the time or desire to maintain their OS themselves, should enroll in a BS program in computer science at their nearest accredited university, a dramatic rearragement of their priorities, in order to maintain their OS themselves. Or else, they should pay someone else MORE THAN THE COST OF AN UPGRADE TO 2000 OR XP to continually develop patches for their shitty old OS and to provide support for it.
Microsoft "addicted" those users to Windows 98. As if the general public is full of raging drug-addicted idiots too poor and destitute to see after their own welfare. It's a good thing a person like you is around to show them the light, the One True Path! Well, fuck you. You would make more sense if you weren't so busy felching cum out of Dick Stallman's distended rectum.
Download mandrake 9.2 iso from mandrake.com
Make cds then install Linux walla your home free.
according to this article, retiring Win98 is to comply with a court order in regard to java. NS is retiring older products because it isn't worth the hassle to update them to comply with the court order. If you want to blame someone because Win98 is being retired, blame Sun and the US court system, not MS.
Vote for Pedro
Such as? I have been running 2k for 3 years now, never crashed or gave me any nuisances. Please back up your claims or do not say them.
I can't say for certain, but I'd be willing to bet that you actually did the upgrade from '95 to '98, rather than backing up any important data, and just wiping the hard drive and doing a fresh '98 install?
I've almost never had really good luck with doing an upgrade installation of a Microsoft product. We went from NT 3.51 to NT 4.0 Server by way of upgrade at a previous job, and all seemed fine. Only thing was, about 48 hours later, the systems upgraded in this manner all froze up and developed problems. When we reformatted and did full NT 4 install on them, no more problems.
I've seen a good number of largely "successful" upgrades to '98 on machines that originally shipped with '95, but in almost every case, there's quite a bit of extra "garbage" left over on the hard drive. The upgrades seem to be far too careless in cleaning up unneeded/unnecessary files left over from '95. In one case, I saw a system that worked fine except the Windows Updates would never install successfully from the update web site. It turned out he still had an old "CATROOT" directory on the drive with data in it from his previous OS and it was breaking the updates. I wiped out that directory (leaving another CATROOT directory which was under his SYSTEM32 directory, as opposed to this old one in the main WINDOWS directory), and all of a sudden, updates started working fine.
So lets here it from someone on the inside. What kind of party is being planned in the tech support offices now that you can put the beast to bed?
I agree... alas, there is no compelling replacement for Windows 98 that I know of.
My Dad's machine and my Mom's machine both run Windows 98. I "let them" run Win98 because it isn't too demanding on their old hardware, they're used to Win98, and I don't want to mess with it (you know how long it takes to set up a new OS on an existing PC). [FYI, I run RH9 at home & work].
Oh, and Win98 is pretty stable too.
Unfortuantely, my parents' computers run just great... the old folk are VERY happy with 64 MB of RAM with Outlook and Mozilla.
I looked into upgrading the PCs to Windows 2000 (or XP). No go. The machines didn't have the disk or memory for it. Or CPU.
Do I have any other options, other than spending a lot of time moving files around, reconfiguring everything, and sinking money into a newer computer with a new OS? The only option I can think of is status quo.
And that's where they'll stay.
...Red Hat is (or well, was, since RHL is now discontinued) offering you a free upgrade, patching the whole damn system. If Win98 came with a free upgrade to WinXP, you wouldn't see nearly as many Win98 boxes.
I know all that "don't break it if it works"... but the whole reason support costs money is that it *doesn't* work - patches need to be backported in order for it to work properly.
If you really need enterprise-stable year-long support, there is the enterprise offering. But I'd say RHL was far more stable than any desktop "needs" to be, and that users should be *glad* they can upgrade to the latest version instead of bitching about support for an old one.
I mean, it's not like we're talking about upgrading from stable version 1.1 to 1.2b7pr3 here, the newer versions in the default distro were in general very stable. And very rarely so different that you had to send users to retraining, unless they had some new features you'd want to start using.
As for Red Hat 9, it's being discontinued. I've seen many apps that are basicly dead in the water the moment they're discontinued, and as long as they don't have a contractual obligation to support it, it's only to keep a decent relationship to their future (potential and current) customers.
So overall, I'd say it was natural for RHL to have a much shorter lifespan than Windows.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
So far no one has mentioned Microsoft's official excuse for terminating Windows 98--the termination was included as part of their settlement of a lawsuit with Sun. This is actually an excellent example of Microsoft's diabolical cleverness. They basically lost the lawsuit, but they used the settlement to kill off 98 so they can make more money on that XP garbage. You call that "punishment"? Hard to believe that Sun's lawyers were dumb enough to fall for that:
Brer Rabbit Microsoft: "Whatever you do, Brer Fox Sun, please don't throw me in that briar patch of dropping Windows 98 support!"
Anyway, my own timing is almost impeccable, which isn't so common. I hope it's a good sign for the new year. My last pure Windows 98 box apparently croaked last night (and all the data had been pulled off a while ago). I still have a couple of cross-booters just in case.
Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
I just got a copy of my 2003 income tax software, which I will run on Windows 98SE. Each year I must buy a new program for the new tax year.
OK, so you don't bitch about having to pay for tax software every year, but because you have to upgrade your operating system after 5 years because it has become obsolete, you're going to complain?
You're a fucking moron!
evil adrian
Some software, that runs on Windows 98, does not run successfully on Windows XP (and especially on Windows 2000). Sure, such software is usually woefully written but, if users rely on it, so what?
Can you name one widely used application that does not work on 2k natively or using the compatibility layer provided on the cdrom?
Windows 98 SE came out in various language versions. In many cases, equivalent comfort levels for non English speakers are not readily available in Windows 2000 or XP. While the NT based systems allow input and output of the appropriate characters, this is not the same as having menus and error messages in ones native language. With 2000 and XP, multilingual user interface packs exist for many of the languages with specific language Windows 98 versions. These packs are only available to corporate customers.
Both 2k and XP are available in different languages available to home users, not just language packs. Research a little before you type.
Your last two points are both about money and people not being able to afford it. Windows 2000 has been out for almost 4 years now, this is plenty of time to prepare for an upgrade.
Not only is it incoherent, but it speaks of "Slashdot" as if it were a monolith with well defined opinions. What a crock of shit.
Just upgrade to Windows ME which is still supported.
Umm, no, wait.. never mind...
I'm a perfectionist but I'm trying to cut back.
But according to every linux fanboy, that's not the fault of the OS, it's the fault of NVIDIA. I'm not saying you're being hypocritical, but some people seem to bash microsoft but not linux when it's the same problem...drivers.
You're just grabbing at straws trying to find things to bitch about regarding Microsoft. Red Hat drops support WAY sooner than Microsoft ever does (it's been 5 years for Windows 98 -- Redhat discontinued support for Redhat 7.3 at the end of last year and that's way newer than Windows 98.)
And you sir, need to check some facts too:
o Microsoft charges for Win98, RH didn't for 7.3
o Red Hat's commerical offerings (AS, ES, EW) are comparable to Microsoft's in terms of support length.
Complaining about lack of support for a free product is like a homeless man complaining that the mission food sucks and he wants them to serve him something better.
--Software is like sex; if you feel the need to pay for it you can always find someone willing to take your money.
-- If we don't stand up for our rights, now, there will be no right to stand up for them later.
Sure, it sucks supporting old software, but when January 16 rolls around, the two Microsoft 98 machines I own will switch to one Microsoft XP machine and one Debian GNU/Linux machine.
For my personal use, I'm not willing to pay for updates when F/OSS software does what I need. The only reason why I'm even upgrading one machine to XP is that I'm not the primary user.
I wouldn't recommend 98SE to my worst enemy, but in the sticky situation where you know someone is going to be running Windoze no matter how much you proselytise against it, 98SE is one of the least horrible alternatives.
Yes, it is a shitty 16-bit insecure system with a funky 32-bit wrapper around great inventions like the Win16Mutex, and yes, it's got a lot of migration going on because Bill and company were up against the wall in Washington DC, but it doesn't possess the evils of later versions such as Win2K, WinME, and WinXP.
And there are always forums - people will exchange ideas and tips.
No one needs Microsoft. For the effort made to find a good forum on 98SE and an answer to a question, people in the future will be able to download a Linux distro and fare so much better.
Sigh...
If Microsoft is "forcing" them to upgrade to something more stable and secure, then what is the problem? If the problem is really as big as you say it is, we should all be happy.
As for Red Hat, sure, upgrade for free, if you know what you're doing. I don't know what the percentage is, but I would venture that roughly MOST of the people using computers wouldn't know what to do with Linux -- how to configure it, how to upgrade it, how to get their webcam to work with it. So while everyone is bitching about "forcing" Windows users to upgrade, why aren't they bitching about Linux developers "forcing" users to work with needlessly arcane interface to extend and upgrade, a shitty GUI, and no driver support?
Oh, wait, because "Micro$oft" is "evil" for trying to make money. My bad.
I don't want to make peace with people that are stupid. I'd rather point out their stupidity in a fashion that makes them stop posting, or makes them post more intelligently. I'm sick of making "nice" posts and then getting flamed by a bunch of 14 year olds that think it's their inalienable right to violate other people's rights.
evil adrian
Buy a mac, play games on your mac, and dump your Win98 partition. I did and now I'm Microsoft free! A little KOffice, Keynote, and Safari, and I don't have a stitch of MS anywhere now that I've got Warcraft III for the Mac. A commercial operating system with commercial programs, with a BSD core. Happiness is OS-X and FreeBSD interoperability. Now to purge the world of that nasty little penguin and dolphin database and computing will be a place again.
-- Sean Chittenden
It's called Windows 2000. :+) Yeah, I'm sort of kidding, but I'm not. I've successfully used every version of Windows since 3.0 EXCEPT Millennium Edition. It's the biggest piece of shite I've ever seen come out of Microsoft (I never saw Bob, so I can't compare it to that). I can't name even one redeeming feature about it. Perhaps I'm just under informed on the issue, but I doubt it.
Seriously, just use Windows 2000 or XP. I'm running XP on a 500 Mhz laptop with 192 MB RAM and it runs like a dream. Performance is a little snappier if I turn off the visual styles, keep the other fancy visual effects to a minimum, and turn off the System Restore on the drive, but that's about it.
As far as your poor little 200 Mhz machine with 64 MB RAM: if you upgrade the RAM on that thing to at least 128 MB, you should have no problem with Windows 2000 on it. I have a "poor little laptop" with only a 133 Mhz processor and 144 MB RAM and Windows 2000 runs just fine on there. It's no speed demon, but Linux with KDE wouldn't do any better either. Barring that, Win98SE is a good OS to use, or maybe just use Linux if you want to try it out.
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
I recently built myself a new box,athlon2600,512 of DDR,video card w/tv out,not bleeding edge but up to date.Better than my last 1 gig athlon box.
Which OS did I use? Win98! "Why use THAT?" everyone asked. Because it boots every time,never a BSOD like the 2000Pro that my wife HAS to use because the company sent her home with it."Security Concerns with 98" they said. BS!!
I never run any AV software,I did a online scan for the first time last week,been running 3 years now with 1 "trojan reported",just cain/abel.Now remember, I don't download/install everything that comes down the pike AND I am behind an old 350Mhz box w/ Suse on it,Slackware before that.
But real point is this: I reading about the spoofing of the address bar recently and the OS/IE combo that I'm running wasn't vulnerable to this attack.What else can I say?
Security through Obscurity!!!
Guess there's no money left in 98 anymore.
Too Bad.
Third party support? Excuse me for not submitting an application. For one thing, nobody will need help installing Win98 because Microsoft phased out retail of the OS in late November/early December. Second off, after about a year most calls would be aggravating at the least-because the die-hards with Win98 left on their hard drives are probably less tech-savvy than your average guy. And the calls worth merit-from people who know a little about how their computer works-will probably be related to driver or patch issues, because of the phase out. Talk about a stressful job!
If my answers frighten you, stop asking scary questions.
Seriously, who would expect MS to fix them?
For any specific bug, there is absolutely no guarantee that Microsoft will ever fix it -- no matter how serious it may be to your organization.
Microsoft fixes bugs only when their internal calculus (i.e. marketing-benefit minus engineering-cost) exceeds a certain threshhold.
There are plenty of severe bugs in Windows that never have, and never will be fixed.
For example, all MS file systems have a serious design defect that makes it impossible to reliably delete or rename a file without rebooting the machine first. (Zombie processes can hold a file open forever, preventing any deleting or renaming.)
20 years of people pleading with MS to fix that bug has had no effect, yet it's a "showstopper" by any reasonable definition.
When it comes to quality, Microsoft is a huge, faceless, bureaucratic brick wall.
There is only one reasonable strategy: If you want to make sure that bugs get fixed in the OS, then make damn sure you have all the source-code for it.
"Thank God"
"You mean someone was USING that?"
and since it's Slashdot
"Upgrade them to Linux - compared to ME, everything else will see like bliss."
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
because it goes against the "whole world domination plan" that's the real long term goal of Microsoft.
How the fuck can anybody take you seriously?
I'm amazed you forgot the dollar sign.
evil adrian
Windows 2000 won't play my games
For those who can't get old games to work on Windows 2000, you can use the ACT. I was frustrated that I couldn't run games like TIE Fighter and X-Wing on Win2k, but this program seems to emulate 95/98 so they magically work. I don't know if it works with everything, but it's at least a start.
is explained in the parent post; would somebody please mod it up? This is important for anyone wishing to continue using win98 after January 16.
1) I agree there's no reason Microsoft should be obligated to support their OSes forever. Were you guys complaining when they dropped support for WFW3.11? For comparisons sake - as a Powerbook owner, should I be incensed that OS 6 is not maintained by Apple?
2) The comparisons between MS's support lifetime policy and Red Hat's is ludicrous. When Red Hat ends support for a product line, upgrading to the newer comparable version of the product is free. When version 9 support runs out this spring, you can upgrade to Fedora at no cost. Last I looked, MS wasn't donating any variant of XP or 2000.
#DeleteChrome
Not true. When you buy Microsoft, you understand that it is not Open Source, and that your patches are at their convenience, this is known, don't complain when they stop supporting something they did not agree to support forever.
Either that, or Microsoft should give these users the opportunity to support themselves.
Why? Windows 98 has been out for years. Microsoft never said, implied, promised, suggested, or led to believe they would support any specific product forever. They have always been about upgrading to whatever the newest product is. How can this be a surprise?
or, be supported by someone else.
Microsoft products are not Open Source. Did you not realize this when you bought Windows 98 way back in the Stone Age? The Closed Source model carries with it liabilities to the manufacturer, why would you expect them to allow unknown persons to provide support? To do so, they would be required to disclose source code, and this ain't going to happen
In closing, when you buy Closed Source products, you accept that you rely on the manufacturer (or their agents) for support. If that's the paradigm you wish to buy into, don't complain when they tell you to upgrade.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
If you download the Application compatibility toolkit you can run games like TIE Fighter and X-Wing on Win2k. I don't know if it works with everything, but I've had great success running those games in particular.
Phased out to MS seems to mean that it is stable and now they want to move on to less stable Operating systems. -Dave http://www.whitehatsystems.com/
God Bless America, where "democracy" means a rich, white male as President
So you'd rather have a poor, nigger female as President, yeah that'd go over well.
As far as I'm concerned, that's fine... I ended my support of Microsoft about 9 months ago when I 'switched' to Linux as my primary operating system at home.
6 months or so prior to that I'd abandoned Microsoft Works for Open Office, and switched from using IE to Mozilla.
When I do boot to a Windows partition it's rarely for anything other than to keep my virus definitions up to date (a free antivirus program I might add) or play old 'legacy' games which don't run under versions of Windows past 98se..
I agree that 98se was definitely better from a gaming standpoint that win2k. Windows 2000 was just too corporate-centric to run any games. ...but I seem to remember many newer games working under Windows 2000, it didn't bother me. It didn't work with all, particularly those that used an old DirectX version. After all it was the first NT-line OS with DirectX support, but overall it worked pretty well.
;) but it was 1000x times more stable than Win98SE, which was extremely unstable for me.
By then they knew that a consumer OS from that line was coming and that coding to the NT-line standard would vastly increase the lifespan of their games, so most did.
I remember switching to Win2k in Dec'99 (yes, I know when Win2k was released
I still run Win2k ("downgraded" after some unpleasant experiences with XP), and run games on it. It's a great OS, if you ask me. Throw in Opera (sorry Moz) & Media Player Classic, and you got an excellent system.
Whatever "free" middleware Windows throws in, I couldn't care less. And I've seen no compelling OS (like kernel, windows manager) reason to upgrade. We'll see when WinFS and all that materializes far far in the future. Of course, by then I might have made this desktop Linux, but not yet - so far the server in the corner + X server here will do...
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Anyone still using win9x really ought to upgrade to windows 2k/XP. It will save you a lot of headaches.
Unless your hardware just isn't supported in win2k / winxp, in which case, it's more moolah.
I mean, I got to admit, I prefer 2k over win98se as far as relibility, uptime, and for the most part no blue screen of death, or atleast an automatic reboot after one. In fact, I have a laser printer, panasonic 6500 or something... after one of the earlier service patches, blue screen of death. Not like I can't emulate an HP under win2k, but a 600dpi laser emulating a 300 dpi is a loss that I wouldnt' have to experence if I stayed with win 9x. Unless you know of a new laser that allows the end user to add raw toner... i'm stuck unless I happen to find a cool used one.
I've since switched lasers, to one that works, mostly anyway.
But if one using a sub pentium II machine, with sub 32megs of ram, and is perfectly happy with sub word 97.... great, more power to ya. You might beable to find enough ram to make 2k / xp happy, or you can not bother and still have a perfectly working glorified word processor.
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
You can *not* compare support options on open source vs. support options on proprietary software.
Open source software is patchable by the entire user community even if Red Hat decides to discontinue support.
Microsoft software is not patchable (with reasonable ease) by anyone but Microsoft.
A better analogy would be the phone company sicontinuing support for existing phones and requiring customers to buy new phones from it.
Utilities, by the way, are also de facto monopolies. Its just that we regulate them.
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
We here at slashdot/goatse regret to inform you that your application for new goatse guy has been denied. We wish you luck in your future career endevors.
Sentimental, but I miss MS-DOS, 3.1, 95, 98.
I did a lot of work and remember some cool stuff that came out with the advent of those OS's. There all gone now, I looked but can't find them. They were old and couldn't be supported.
Yah, It is not as great as today's "New and Improved" PC's and OS's, but still the trip was fun, invigorating, exciting and frustrating.
I guess I sort of feel like my grandpa, while helping me to fix my car and looking for the "Points". Just when you finally figure it all out, it is phased out for more modern technology.
I wonder if Linux is the punch card of todays technology? Bet you will miss it when it is gone, left behind for some "New and Improved OS" and your kids will be poking fun at you using linux...
'sfunny....last time I used it it just continually conked out. maybe this phase thingy will be good in the long run.
I still have an old computer running a PII 233MhZ, 4GB hard drive dual-booting on Mandrake Linux and Windows 98. What OS do you think I'll be more inclined to use when M$ drops support on W98? I bought the Mandrake 7.0 distro at Best Buy for twenty bucks, so it included support and I STILL GET support. (I bought it a few years ago when I had dialup and it made no sense to download it). When Windows 98 would have come at the hefty price of $100, and they drop support now? Maybe not all of us want to upgrade to XP, or can't because we have old PCs lying around that need updates. Microsoft isn't REQUIRING the upgrades, but they're doing a damned nice job of forcing them on us.
Domain name registration for $8.79 per year
879domains.co
almost all of the latest security holes affect 2000 and XP, w98 doesnt have as many holes and the simple act of using a firewall solves 99% to begin with.
no more patches are not a problem with windows 98
how about people, like myself, that have hardware that will NOT run anything after Win98? I have a p133 laptop that I use for web, email, etc, that cannot run Win2k
How about it? You're running a 5-year-old operating system on 8-year-old hardware. What do you expect? The pace of software and hardware evolution will not slow down just for you. Sooner or later, you will have to upgrade.
Looks like MS is forcing me to upgrade my hardware too? Not cool.
Not cool? Neither is complaining about lack of support for something produced last century. Suck it up and buy something that'll run a newer operating system. Used laptops are cheap.
People on slashdot whine way too much.
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
Darn that Micro$oft. They're ending support for a long-discontinued product that plenty of people are still using!
I'm just glad that General Motors still manufactures genuine GM replacement parts for my '85 Chevy. Oh, wait; no, they don't, even though I still occasionally see people driving '85 Chevies around (especially since I live near a college town).
Now please excuse me while I bring my Model T to my local Ford dealership for a tuneup and a shiny new black paint job.
Seriously, no company in any industry will offer eternal support of discontinued products. And while Windows 98 might not seem that old, the computer industry's product lifecycles do move at a substantially faster rate than most others'.
Sure, I'll be running to archive some patches to CD, and so will a lot of other people who are reading this; I do have friends and relatives still on 98. But I still don't fault Microsoft for choosing not to flush their support and development dollars down the toilet. I'd much rather see the significant resources needed to commercially support an old operating system go towards improving current and future versions of Windows. After all, Windows XP SP2 will be much more useful to me than Windows 98 Third Edition would be.
Microsoft Windows is, fittingly, the official Desktop OS of Olig
Because they just arent "another company" there are friggin monopoly. There are what? millions? of net enabled Win98 machines? So when the next big network exploit comes out that means no internet for me at home (cable modem) and a general slow-down of the entire net. Not to mention trojans, zombies, etc.
There are simply larger consequences when a monopoly does something as compared to a niche product like Red Hat.
The same rules simply do not apply to a monopoly.
I wouldnt care if there were only a few thousand Win98 installations on the net, but that is certainly not the case. MS could be offering Upgrade vouchers and such if they really cared about security and their customers. If the hardware can't run XP that's fine, they can upgrade to 2K.
I don't know how you can claim Windows '95 was superior to '98, when it lacked USB support completely, had very little native device driver support by comparison, didn't support Internet Connection Sharing or even support for internal ISDN modems (no native support for bonding multiple 64K "B" data channels together), and a slew of other things.
I can.
USB devices were few and far between in 1998. Hell, only in the past year or 2 are they really becoming prevalent, in the form of cheap digital cameras.
ICS was a feature that few people used (at least around here), because by the time 98 was out we were all on multi-IP cable modems. Those on dialup didn't relish the thought of leaving a "main" computer on all the time in case another computer wanted to go online. Beyond us geeks, few people even HAD multiple computers in 1998.
ISDN modems? Heh. Guess you and the other 4 people out there had problems with that. By 1998 we had 4mbit cable connections up here, so other than business (who were still generally using things like Novell as their backend)...
98 added a slew of stability issues, took 2-3 times the hard drive space, a lot more RAM, and was just slower in general. About the only good thing was (as you mentioned) the driver support. If you were like me, that meant a couple less floppies during install. Other than that though, until the NT kernel hit the bigtime with 2000, you'd have pried 95 from my cold, dead hands.
Just for fun, the other day I tried installing 98 on my old 486 with 8mb of ram. The installer wouldn't even let it proceed. 95 ran on that setup for weeks at a time without needing a reboot. 'nuff sed.
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
Some software, that runs on Windows 98, does not run successfully on Windows XP (and especially on Windows 2000). Sure, such software is usually woefully written but, if users rely on it, so what?
Can you name one widely used application that does not work on 2k natively or using the compatibility layer provided on the cdrom?
I don't know about "widely used applications", but I know that several games did *not* work in Windows2000 that worked in Windows98. One example, FIFA99 would work in compatability mode, but without support for gamepads, which wasn't very fun (don't recall if networking even worked). This was a major turn off to their emulation. This doesn't even address the issue of DOS programs some people may want to use (again, many older games like the good Ultimas) and I know a couple companies that, although an oddity, still use WordPerfect for DOS (or did two-three years ago at least, not sure of now to be honest).
The reason companies dont make official drivers for old MS OS's is because the Win2k and beyond driver model is much better, and easier to support.
Also, I wouldnt brag about the Winmodem thing: getting them to work is a recent development, much like USB. If OSS is so much better, why does it take so long to get things done?
Microsoft addicted those users to Windows 98, and is responsible for their care and feeding.
WTF? Are you smoking crack? Because thats the only addiction going on that I see.
Microsoft is dropping support because they want people to start using a more secure, stable, and easier to support OS. If you think Win98 is so great, thats because you dont use or support it.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
No surprise here. Pretty soon we will be hearing about Windows 2000 support being phased out, just when people get done migrating.
I hate sigs.
Use PortTalk to access ports directly.
http://www.beyondlogic.org/porttalk/porttalk.htm
1) write your own drivers, or repair problems that appear with the OS after official support ends; 2) pay another person to provide you with support; or 3) a combination of the two
Last I saw that didn't violate MS EULA.
Viva la free market.
So you are saying a DOS game 5 generations old in the series did not work... Every single game I have tried works fine in 2k, granted I have not tried any dos games.
Other than that you can still run your Office applications, play music, burn CD's, most of the stuff you do now. Save your Windows partition for those apps that are Windows only, but you'll find you don't need to go back very often.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Spoken so eloquently.. too bad parent isnt modded up like it should be.
A DUP IS A DUP IS A DUP.
This is Microsoft's description from their Windows 98 Downloads page:
Download 'em all before January 16, them burn 'em onto a CD. We just don't know how long those updates will be available.To all the idiots that claim that OSS is the one and only way to "keep yourself supported" - consider this: Grandma's not going to learn C and kernel development just to get her webcam working, or to keep her dot matrix printer churning out recipies.
Imagine 2 sets of people - those still running Windows 98, *exclusively*, for day to day work and those who can fully, without-a-doubt understand their favorite OSS and code their way through a new printer driver (or whatever). Now, show me the intersection of those 2 sets. Not a big resultant set is it? Does that set even exist?
they can still come after you for pirate versions of 98SE? Not that I'm worried about MS Nazis at my door, but what of all the unused/unsold boxes?
Linux has only 1% share of google-accessing PCs. I never imagined (after reading Slashdot for so long) that it would be such a small part of the whole.
Wow...
Use whatever of Mr. Bill's products work for your particular circumstance. For NOW, that is. In a relatively short while support for ME, 2000, and even XP will disappear. In order to continue using a desktop PC using Windows connected to the Internet you will be expected to subscribe to a mandatory version of some Windows product. Oil up your credit card, and it won't hurt as much!
Goddamned kids! Get off my lawn!
I'm unhappy about this because I like my win '98 box because it runs the software I need (Photoshop, games, dreamweaver) and unlike XP, it doesn't have product activation.
I can't really bitch too much at Microsoft, because 5+ years active support is much better than any commercial Linux distro.
If Linux could run Photoshop, Dreamweaver, and Europa Universalis II, this would prompt me to switch.
evanchik.net
firstly, i don't spell anything right nor do i speak english.
secondly, i just spent the past 10 or so months on dvorak, and i switched quite recently to qwerty, so i'm a little shoddy at the typing.
thirdly, i'm moving kind of fast and don't really care. you knew what word i was referring to, and that is all i care about, or have ever cared about
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
>In fact, I'm recommending they all get Apple >laptops next time they want to do a major >computer upgrade. ...what about da penguin?
I mean, we keep talking here about how open source is the way to go, how Linux can do all the general grandpa functions but I guess that's only good for the unwashed masses.
and smarter then the avergae american too...
Just because you might drive a 57 Chevy does NOT mean Chevrolet should still provide new parts for that car. If you really want to keep that car, then your only choice is to go with aftermarket parts (Linux as an OS for the PC) and/or parts from a junk yard or bought directly from someone else (EBay and computer swap meets)
Of course, it would just be more cost effective to buy a new car that comes backed by a warrenty. A shiny new PC with XP in this case from Dell.
Seriously, why should MS be forced to support there older software for as long as they do. I would say they are being more then fair about it with ample warning ahead of time. I doubt you can say the same thing for Apple. They are notorious for leaving their users high and dry when it comes to support after a few years of Mac ownership.
Life is not for the lazy.
The replacement for Windows 98 (Windows ME) was not released for the retail public until Sept. 14, 2000. So, if you purchased your Windows 98 software right before ME came out you are only getting 3.25 years of support. For the average home user that is a crappy deal.
Since this story was carried not very long ago, it was inevitable that someone should complain about dupes.
/.
Complaints about dupes are probably the most duplicated thing carried by
Not only is this self-contradictory, but if the reader didn't see the previous story, it's not a dupe to them. And if the reader did see the previous story, and read down to the dupe complaints, they wanted to read more about it.
Now, I'm not saying my little rant about dupe complaints is in any way better in principle than the complaints themselves. But you gotta admit, it's got style.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
NT4 is great, if you never want to use USB.
So, nowadays, NT4 is less than great.
Seriously, when MS discontinues a product it should roll up all the updates, fixes, and upgrades to core components into one massive patch and put it out. It would save me a lot of trouble if I could just install IE6sp1, WinMedia 9, DirectX9, and all the patches all at once rather then go through a dozen reboots. It would also rock the house if you could 'slipstream' the patch into the .CAB files BEFORE installation. It would just be a good policy.
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
you should see the problem we have with imigration, we don't have a writen constituation, no oath of aligence, people go missing in our country and we never seem to find them again until they claim dole or use our health service under new names. I for one would not like to be in the USA, I'd miss Yorkshire puddings and gravy, good chocolate, custard, bbc comedy and not being prone to natural disasters. (Oh yea and the best health service in the world), we just have this problem of not being a very strong market place, so companies hike prices and we get ripped off. God Bless The Queen. ;-)
This has nothing to do with new installs, it is about supporting existing infrastructure in places that have no need to upgrade.
Manufactuers of hardware still support Win98 and will continue to do so as long as there is demand for it.
I know about 10 people who will switch PCs when Doom III and halflife2 comes out. They have accumulated $ for all the hardware and XP, but they just see no reason to get rid of win98 now.
first, get a copy of the xp pro cd. Dont worry if you dont have a cd key.
second, download
this
and run it on a fairly fast computer. Set it for windows xp corporate, find key, and the number of searches to 100. Let it run for an hour or two, and it should find you at least one working cd key. The cd key produced disables the bullshit activation. I've personally have tested this and it works wonders.
For the whiners who will scream piracy.....this has ABSOLUTELY legitimate uses for people who legally own win xp and dont want to have deal with M$ bullshit activation. Its really no different then bypassing css on a dvd you own.
Lawyers, MBA's, RIAA? A jedi fears not these things!
When you recommend those Apple laptops, don't forget to tell them they will probably need to upgrade OS X (at a cost of at least $129) every other year if they want support from Apple. Note that Apple has all but stopped supporting OS X 10.1 (released Sept 2001) since March 2003. That's when they released their last security update for OS X 10.1. The last bugfix/enhancement update for OS X 10.1 (Mac OS X Update 10.1.5) was released in May 2002.
It's too bad Apple doesn't publicly state how long they plan to support their OS versions (like Microsft does). But based on their actions, it looks like they only support the two most recent point releases (currently 10.2 and 10.3). We can expect OS X 10.2 updates to disappear when 10.4 is released
Well I'll be damned...
Need Mercedes parts ?
Your grandparents don't have to do it. Another company or group could come along, take RH's source and run with it and do all the work for your grandparents.
this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
Commercial products should become public domain once they are no longer sold nor officially supported.
Win XP 39.6%
Win 98 18.9%
Win 2k 18.4%
Win ME 7.4%
Win NT 3.1%
Mac OS 2.2%
Mac X 1.7%
Win 95 1.5%
webTV 0.5%
Linux 0.5%
Others less than 0.1 % include Sun, Windows 3.xx, Free BSD, OS/2, CPM, HP Unix.
I think it is interesting how poorly they have done replacing older Win systems until Win XP.
Kudos!
My Win98SE has been running fine for many years. I want to upgrade to XP Pro, but not to the tune of $150 - $200. I see no immediate need to upgrade (my wants and my needs differ). However, if my Windows craps out on me, and I can't get the normal updates from Microsoft, then I will have to upgrade, and I don't think that's fair to me. That would be like an auto maker deciding not to repair 6-year old vehicles, but forcing you to buy a new one instead.
Personally, I see no reason for Microsoft to remove the current updates from their web site, and I would have no problem if they simply didn't create new updates, but left the current ones. That would make a lot more sense to a lot of users, I would imagine.
JC
This article reminds me of an old joke I just made up:
Why did they call it Windows?
Because it's easily broken.
How the fuck can anybody take you seriously?
I'm amazed you forgot the dollar sign.
How the fsck can anybody not see that the goal of Microsoft is the complete domination of the whole Software Industry? Heck, even the Simpson's got that right.
And, BTW, I try to not use the $ sign. It's just for the occasions where the attitude is blatantly commercial or monopolistic.
Life isn't like a box of chocolates. It's more like a jar of jalapenos. What you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
Why do so many corporations still use Windows 98? It's because a copy of Windows 98 costs $180. Compare that to NT 4 which ran about $349. And NT didn't even support IDE! Your IDE drives showed up as SCSI. And drivers had always been an issue with NT.
Worried about security with Windows 98? Use a domain controller and set a group policy. Add the "MustBeValidated" policy and users can't log in without a being validated by a Windows NT domain.
Sure Windows 98 wasn't all that stable, but it was alot cheaper than NT. And if a workstation crashed or become problematic because of Windows, you reimage it. All the data is saved on the server anyway (at least it should be).
As far as upgrading from Windows 98 as a whole, sure hardware has vastly increased. But does that mean you need to have 2 GHz systems? Let's face it, buying a new computer for just Internet use is overkill anymore. Super fast systems aren't needed for things like web browsing an email. Just because you can go faster, doesn't mean you have to. Windows 98 fits the bill. It supports "legacy" hardware and that might be all some people need.
Windows 98 was simple and served the average user's needs.
Not to be redundant but didn't everyone here at /. know this? Just making sure.
http://www.users.muohio.edu/reamsjp/donate.html
Now that Windows 98 is phased out and Microsoft is rich enough that they don't care about pissing 27% of people off by not releasing crucial security patches and taking off downloads, it'll become (loosely) 'abandonware'. Yes, I know it isn't, but warez groups will call it such. Someone needs to get in there and steal the source code. Then we can continue developing Windows 98 on SourceForge or something.
Win98 was better than the "upgrade" that was called ME...
"This amp is special, see all the knobs go up to 11, that means it is one louder than other amps"
Does these 27% include Windows ME?
No, it would be more like Apple dropping support for OS 8, and we know they wouldn't... Oh. Nevermind.
There seems to be a lot of discussion in here about upgrading from Windows 98SE to Windows 2000, Windows XP, Linux, etc. etc. without taking into account the simple fact that most people on /. are probably in the IT industry anyway and have free and easy access to MSDN CDs that allow them to install and use the latest Windows OS and Office at home, free of charge.
The arguments on here follow the same arguments I frequently have with colleagues at work and friends at home when we discuss moving to Linux as an option of getting out of the Windows upgrade cycle (I'm the Linux user, the others all use Windows as their main OS) - they're all happy to stay in the Windows upgrade cycle until you remind them that if they didn't have access to MSDN CDs, they would end up parting with several hundred dollars to run the Microsoft software that they currently run - when you remind them of that, Linux (to them) then seems to be something worth considering...
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
No more free support on the 95-98 core.
Ms is forcing us to change operating systems for several reasons. Firstly, they established a anti-compeditive monopoly and broke antitrust laws, which if you had an understanding of antitrust laws and why they are there you'd understand why that's bad (read gangs of america, do a google search it's free in PDF), but I guess you've never lived in a slum so you've got no idea why poor people are poor and what happens when they start being broken.
After doing this, they proceeded to release operating systems with poor security and then throw dirt on everyone else about how their security isn't as good and then empahsise the few flaws other OS makers have. After a few big viruses, they pull patching support so nobody can fix the holes the viruses use to get into computers running it, then suggest users "upgrade" to a new operating system.
So what happens if I don't change my operating system? Well, lets see. Lets say, conservativally, in another year we'll see at least one more blaster-sized event that exploites MS operating systems. What do all the win98 users do? What does the rest of the internet do when all the win98 users are broadcasting the viruses and clogging up the lines? What damage is done to ISP's and the people who subscribe to them because people refused to upgrade and secure? Exactly, your computer stays unprotected and infected or you find a way to get rid of the virus and protect yourself.
Secondly, switching Os's has costs. Upgrading to another MS operating system means spending lots and lots of money, around $100 a copy in most instances. Not everyone can afford that.
Changing over to linux means learning a new operating system, and spending nearly as much on support on something few know. Now, if you've ever used linux you'll know most ma n' pops can get it running no problem, and if they have problems they can call up the tech support and get all the help they want. There's even a nifty helper that boots up when you use the OS that gives you an idea of what you're doing. Linux is getting very close to surpasing WinXP's user friendlyness.
Alternativally, you can switch over to Mac, and spend even more money on new hardware and a new OS.
Yup, MS is just trying to make some money.
Just like IBM was just trying to make money by selling the Nazi's indexing equipment which was used to kill millions of jews.
Just like Cisco is just trying to make some money by selling equipment to the Chinese so they can censor or kill anyone they don't happen to like the opinion of.
Just like wallmart just tries to make some money by going into small towns, bullying out the smaller buisnesses, establishing itself as the only store in town then forcing the populace to work at wallmart for minimum wage on long hours so they can barely make ends meet.
Just like investors at the old spanish stock market were just trying to make some money when they invested in lucrative pirate ships that would go out, board foreign merchant vessels and take whatever they could.
Just like the East India company did by going out and purchasing monopolies from the king of britan and forcing people out of jobs, onto the streets, and ultamatly into slavery. 10,000 of these people were apparently killed by the Virginia company later in the new world when the king decided they had to pay for their crime of loitering in the street by dieing of famine and hunger while building cities and towns for wealthy people.
Just like Gap is just trying to make some money by going into foreign countries and enslaving people at gunpoint to make pants, then paying them a measly pittance so the goverments of the region leave them alone.
And finally, I like making peace with people, and teaching stupid people (even if I don't like them). It makes life a lot easier and more enjoyable. Mabye if you'd use that brain (you know, the biggest and strongest thing in your body) and stop hating things for stupid reasons you
Candy-Coated Knowledge
In the auto industry, any body shop can fix your door if it gets dented, and you don't face problems with patent owners preventing you from getting replacement parts.
With windows 95 (and likely 98 now), Microsoft is removing the availability of critical updates (equivalent factory recalls). They then wield the power via copyright law and DMCA to prevent anyone from making them available to people who run win 98, thus forcing a paid upgrade.
I don't care so much that they won't provide patches to any new exploits that are found after 5 years (providing they don't sue any white hats that fix them). I do care if they pull the patches and updates that already exist. It's like if you buy a car that ends up with a recall for the seat belt, you get it fixed, and ten years later when you bring it in for a new muffler, they put back in the original, defective seat belt.
BTW, if cars had as many defects and ran as poorly as windows, people would go back to riding horses. Luckily for them, microsoft fills their software with distracting bells and whistles.
Oh yes, I've seen at least two 486 machines with Windows 95 in them. One was a very old machine from father's office (it somehow ran Netscape 4.77) and another one was the one I set up with very a similar configuration to yours: A 486sx25, 8M RAM. I remember it could even run Word95 normally. Netscape 3 was awful slow, then I used a DOS version of PKZip and LPAGE was an image processing program. And that was pretty much all that I could used on that machine until it died completely.
You can use 3rd party firewalls, eg Zonealarm, to protect an otherwsie vulnerable system. I do that at the moment with my Win98SE. Though I am planning to migrate to Win2K for stability reasons (and still use ZoneAlarm or similar).
A very large number of websites abandoned MSIE 5.5 a long time ago, if only to move up to a higher bitlevel of encryption. Nobody should be bitching about not being able to upgrade from 4.0 (or whatever shipped with win 98) to MSIE 5.5. If your computer can't run a recent browser, you should't worry about not being able to download an earlier (also obsolete) browser to run.
When they stop making service packs and critical updates available, let me know.
something cheap like linux? just my $0.02 (^^)
All of you linux users, what would you use if you were forced to use windows - i.e., if you were stuck on a desert island and had to use a windows operating system?
it's about time, 98 dies....though I still use it (as a bootdisk) on my compactflash to flash firmware (lot faster than a floppy and I can add more tools if need be easily).
only bad part of the bootCF is that...I've gotten so use to command-completion and "ls" for dir-listing....that...well...I intermix 'em...AHAHAH
Windows 95 had 3 updates after the initial release. USB support was added in the second (Windows 95b) one.
Phase that out fools!
||| I still can't believe Parkay's not butter.
Many moons ago, when MS announced that people would have to replace their hardware in order to buy the upcoming fabulous and trustworthy version of Windows, I wondered at the time how in the hell MS expected to motivate the 40 million people who are still running Win98 and haven't seen fit to upgrade either their hardware or their OS in years. I wondered if MS might do something really arcane, like invoking some buried license clause to to make it illegal to run Win98 anymore. Simply denying further support is a much more straightforward tactic that didn't even occur to me.
MS probably expects millions of loyal Win98 users, after having the rug pulled out from under them, to flock to the store to buy Palladium-equipped PCs. There are probably millions who will. But with cheaper and less aggravating alternatives rising to the surface, I bet there are also millions who won't.
I wonder what retraining bears you saw on the road to linux. Are your users trained in win xp when they enter your organisation? If you do not expect windows training to be neccesary, why do you expect it to be neccesary for linux desktops? Just let them do the clickety-clickety and try it out on some to see what, if any, training they need.
This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
After seeing Blaster wreak havoc, a lot of techno-Luddites are experiencing a warm sense of schadenfreude.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
Aren't those called viruses?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Windows 98SE upgraded and patched does everything they need
The real trouble is when a hard drive or something fails, it can no longer be recovered by reloading the software and cruising to MS for all the latest patches. I could see a lot of systems going from patched to unpatched as machines need re-loaded and the patches are no longer there. I wish MS would provide an end of life support CD with all the patches on it so when my laptop with a max of 72 meg of EDO memory needs reloaded, I can have some security. There is absolutely no way to run XP on it. That is not an option. It ain't broken. It's my mobile GPS enabled topographic map for geocaching and outdoor adventure.
I heard there is a way to download and save the MS updates to Cd, but I don't know how yet. I guess I have less than 2 weeks to figure it out.
The truth shall set you free!
Just because you might drive a 57 Chevy does NOT mean Chevrolet should still provide new parts for that car.
Agreed
If you really want to keep that car, then your only choice is to go with aftermarket parts (Linux as an OS for the PC)...
Here, I have to disagree. If you translate Linux to the auto world, this would mean a) the part being available (binary), and b) the specifications on how to make the part yourself (source code).
If Microsoft gave us the the source code, I'd have absolutely no problem with it. Not that I don't already, I have a laptop with winXP, just pointing out a simple fact.
fsck = fuck
the Simpson's = The Simpsons
Ignorant fool.
Ok, didnt take an oracle to predict nature of comments here .. now how about some useful pointers for people that actually want to replace win98 on their systems with something more reasonable ?
Assuming your average 98 box can be anything from PII 200 mhz to 800 ghz durons and beyond, lousy integrated graphics on most of them. Browsing the net, do some office work with spreadsheets and word processors, using instant messengers. A couple of arcade games now and then.
where should people look, to get up to speed as fast and painlessly as possible ? where's the proverbial www.migrate98tolinux.org ?
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slashdot.org Errors found while checking this document as HTML5!
Likewise, Windows 95 was more stable than Win98. However, there were a lot of improvements made in Win98 which made it preferable to Win95 (good USB support being a major one). Nothing is perfect. Welcome to planet Earth.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
When you have driver troubles, BSOD and spyware, in most cases a full reinstall of Windows fixes it. Theres little else you can do with a trashed Windows98 install since it doesnt really give processes their own closed space like Windows2000 and any other REAL OS.
So would you want to pay Microsoft for solutions they dont provide?
As an operating system after some 7 years (it came out first in 97), its pretty mature and most major fixable bugs have been fixed, and its unlikely in the next 3 years people will NEED a new version of IE or libraries. If they do anyway, any support for WindowsME will also likely work on Windows98, like most drivers made for WinME.
I believe Windows 2000 is mature enough now for people to switch away from Windows98, after Service Pack 4. I also support XP as a usable OS now, after Service Pack 2, but for most cases where stability is required, I go with Windows2000. A cheap ECS computer with a Duron 1.4GHz can easily run Windows 2000/XP so I wouldnt consider hardware to be the problem for switching.
For older hardware, this is good news. People will finally HAVE to use Linux and the likes. For cheaper hardware and poorer countries, Microsoft is actually shooting themselves in the foot.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
... I can use to convince my ain't-got-no-money employer to move to All Linux All The time.
I've found that my posts don't format quite right w/o a sig.
You can cut down win98 a heck of a lot:
:)
I can't see a way to do this quite so well with WinNT/2k/XP without buying an Xbox
It's useful because you can double-boot with your linux and keep Win98 cut down just for games or whatever.
A blog I run for the wealth
Except it wouldn't be like that because cars typically cost > $10,000 whereas OS' like Windows 98 to Windows XP typically cost anywhere from $100 - $300.
I've never understood why the purchase (and/or quality) of a car is always related to the purchase (and/or) quality of software.
Unless you're buying some high-end shit, there is absolutely noway you can relate a $50 game, or $250 OS to a 5 figure car.
The 2003 year end doesn't have an OS percentage. nor does 2002 year end or 2001 year end.
The usage for web browsers is also shown and Mozilla, as mixed in with Netscape 5+, is slowly gaining but everything is getting trownsed by Micro$haft's Internet Exploder. Perhaps Mac's new broswer, based on KHTML, will start to show up soon and help Mozilla and some other things so that Small&Limp^H^H^H^H Microsoft doesn't continue to dictate our future.
Just how many Linux on the Desktop users of us are out there? Perhaps that is a good Ask Slashdot question.
The index for the archives is here.
Restore America: Dr. Ron Paul for President!
A lot of Slashdotters are complaining that M$ doesn't have to support Win98 because for example, Borland no longer supports Borland C++ for DOS. The difference here being that Borland has an application not crucial to the operation of a computer, that no other app depends on, and also whose vast majority of users had moved on to a Windows based version. Microsoft is leaving behind over a quarter of its OS user base and providing no alternative for the number of programs dependent on that OS. IMHO It should provide updates as until the user level falls below something like 10%.
Can your people point and click with a mouse?
Honestly, any company worth its salt should have in place a permanent training program.
If you need to migrate to something else, big deal, the training is already scheduled.
And tell me if I am mistaken, but the monumental amount of books about Windows XP and its software make patently obvious that you have to provide training any way since it is obvious tha the different incarnations of MS products are not quite as easy as people would like to believe.
But do not take my word for it, I have not used MS software for years so I may be completely out of step and MS software is now easier than ever to learn.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
This is one of the fundamental issues about how we are going do deal with IT technology in the fothcomming years.
On one side we have the choice of planned obsolescence, you know your software (no, sorry, using a wrong description here, the software of an external company) will be obsolete in a few years and that no matter what you either upgarde or pray for the best.
On the other hand you have software with no planned obsolescence that you can maintain yourself (you can pay somebody for that) if the need arises and the cost is right.
No choice at all or the choice to decide if you upgrade or repair in your own time under your conditions.
Hell, I am not going to give it a brake because I have seen how far superior a model of software develoipment and licensing allows me more breathing space.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Do you mean there are people out there doing all this for no profit whatsoever?
No profit?
I pity them, nowadays if you do something for no profit you are clearly a fool.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
That is way I use OSS and pay for services not for the software itself.
Software companies are a daft idea from the point of view of the consumer, sadly it is taking far too long to realise this for entities requireing software.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Finally, Windows 98SE upgraded and patched users can rest easy. Since Microsoft won't support it anymore, it will no longer be the target of malicious hackers. Another plus is an opportunity for a company to offer third party support.
I have an (admittedly somewhat old) install of Red Hat on there too, so the machine itself is still usable at least.
What headaches? I have 10 systems on a segment of my home network that is firewalled off so that only the required ports are open for incoming and outgoing traffic. The only problem I have is the occasional need to reboot. Lets see, 10 minutes a week rebooting machines vs $200/machine to upgrade?That's a hard one...
If your crusty hardware won't run anything newer than win 98x. Upgrade. You can get a system for under 500 bucks that will last you another 7 years.
Be glad you aren't a MAC user who makes software that just simply WONT run on certain hardware because Apple wants you you to drop another 1200+ on a new system
Karma means nothing to me, so suck it...
> Just try to get support from Red Hat for RH 5.0.
> if you criticize your ca. 2000 Linux distro with the 2.2 kernel, you get modded down and told to "get with the program" and stop running such an ancient OS, even though said OS is only the same age as Win 98 and is perhaps even younger.
Your points are valid, but the difference is upgrading Linux kernels costs nothing.
However, upgrading from Microsoft's 98 OS to any other MS OS WILL cost money, and the trend MS is trying to instill is to KEEP people on an upgrade-treadmill, where they can get money from them as often as possible.
I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?Fa milyID=b4bbb52c-4e59-4cd6-acbd-fbeadfdd676b&Displa yLang=en
You'll have to massage that somewhat. Slashcode insists on screwing up long URLs. You can also search MS downloads on Windows 95 for "service packs."
Simple. Windows 98SE works for what most people use computers for. It isn't broke (anymore than any other MS product is), so why change?
:P
;)
You elitists need to take a step back and a deep breath and consider the facts. It seems that roughly 27% of the Internet users still use Win98. Take this fact together with the aggresive monopolistic tact that MS has taken, and you arrive at one morally responsible conclusion: keep supporting Win98, because MS basically made it the defacto standard during the beginning of the Internet boom. They created the problem, they should clean it up.
Of course, that's a laugh, because corporate responsibility these days is back down to the standards of the oil and steel barons of old. Money talks, BS gets rooted. Personally, I run win2k/slackware, but if I had to choose between 98 and XP, I'd choose 98 in a heartbeat. XP is invasive and, frankly, bloatware. I'd elaborate on my opinion but that'd be trolling
(Obligatory: I'm a sysadmin supporting NT4/98/win2k/xp/server2003/linux/solaris. Gotta get my street cred out before the trolls call me ignorant
As others have said, you put the theme on classic and turn off all the fading effects and you have nice very stable OS.
www.samuraidreams.com - My Blog
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16-bit OSs will die! Long live 32-bit.
If Microsoft cannot support Windows 98, that means my company cannot support Windows 98. Oh happy days.
I thought Windows ME was also going to be phased as well. Can someone verify this?
ChozSun
ChozSun.com
A firewall and antivirus are only preventitive measures. It won't block a virus coming in through a webpage.
Candy-Coated Knowledge
>I wonder if someone could make some money by doing third-party support of Windows98.
Maybe I'm paranoid, but I expect that if there WAS a way for a group to do this without having access to the Windows 98 source-code, Microsoft itself would write and release a virus that would break the other group's method of fixing problems.
Microsoft want 98 to GO AWAY: They can't make any new money from it; they've made all the money they could from it.
Now, they want to get people on the upgrade-treadmill, and their new & improved treadmill has a EULA that will keep people paying for upgrades FOREVER!
Don't believe it?
Microsoft is pushing "trusted-computing" and "digital-rights-management" technologies because with them, you won't be able to get your data OFF their systems!
Once you'll be locked in and only able to access your creations from their software, they'll be able to make you pay through the nose to keep that access open.
This might take the form of MS licensing you to use Windows for a set period of time, after which you'll be locked out of your own data!
So users will have to pay MS just to keep accessing their own data!
In the end they'll be selling the access-time like cell-phone minutes, and if you get behind in payments, you'll be locked out.
I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
Americans are awfully good at catching misspellings...avergae?
Eat recycled food - it's good for the environment, and OK for you.
Microsoft always has and end support date for every OS. Wk2 has one, 95 had one, 98 has one... and they all are planned way into the future. Hell even XP has one. This isn't a marketing strategy for Longhorn this is just standard business practice. Why support a product that is out-of-date when there are newer and better options?
Can you honestly expect Microsoft to support 98 for the next 10 years? Or XP for the next 15? Of course not and it is silly to think so.
How far back to Linux Distributions support their OS's? Does Slackware 1.0 have a full time support staff? Or Redhat? Or Mandrake? How about Apple? Or IBM?
No, the tax laws and forms change every year. Our beloved congressmen can't leave well enough alone, and change the tax laws (usually for the worse or more arcane) annually. Hence the need for new tax software every year.
You've never traveled outside of the USA or bothered to check out who is more productive than us, have you? Blind national chauvism leads to fascism, and believe me, you are blind.
All the games you can play on a P-133 running Windows? Yeah, I'm guessing it probably does :)
Keep in mind that the original poster was lamenting the fact that he had to use Win98 or upgrade his hardware. Linux is a perfectly good suggestion in this case. Perhaps he won't be able to do exactly everything under Linux that he could under Win98, though the chances of most of it happening are pretty good. He may have to choose between security and a game or two. Maybe he'll even discover new Linux games that he likes, like Liquidwar.
IOW, the choice may come down to "Linux", "new hardware", or "probably getting hacked". Depending on one's financial situation, Linux may look very good.
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
Progeny has announced that they will be providing support for 7.x versions of Red Hat. No one can do that with older versions of Windows.
Also, as another poster mentioned, a new version of Linux doesn't require a system that's twice as powerful as the one before it. With Microsoft, you have to do software compatibility testing (don't even try to tell me everything will "just work" after you upgrade) and hardware upgrades. With Linux, you just have to worry about the software.
That funky old machine with the XT hard drive? Yes, support for it is still in the kernel (Linus has gone on record as being opposed to the removal of support for older hardware). You won't find that your perfectly working printer is no longer supported by the newest version of Linux (at least, not that I've heard).
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
I don't!
Nice to meet you.
Cheers,
AC
w00!
Many Thanks,
Luke
Your points are valid, but the difference is upgrading Linux kernels costs nothing.
For the vast majority of people, it costs considerable amounts of time, and time is money. If you don't know what a kernel is, you're going to be one tired-ass, frustrated-ass motherfucker when you "finish" your Linux upgrade process. (I put "finish" in quotes because Linux, no more or less than Windows, also demands perpetual updates if you want it to stay current.)
Windows lets you pay in money for an easy, all-in-one upgrade. Linux gives you the option of either doing that, or paying in time for a multitude of difficult, piecemeal upgrades. If Win98 users wanted to do things the messy way like that, they would switch to Linux. And indeed, some have... about what... 1%?
I agree with you. This place is filled with cryers and whiners. "I sit at my desk all day and play Diablo II and drink Irish coffee. I don't know why they fired me!!!" or "Bill Gates and Microsoft suck!!!" Suck it up and drive on, fruit loop!
BTW I am posting as Anon because I don't have the time or patience to fill out your stupid forms...
You can't get a virus from a webpage. As for attacks on the browser, scripting etc, it's simple: don't use IE. There are lots of alternatives.
I guess this means that M$ won't mond if I start selling copies of W98SE?
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
Compared to ME, typewriters, tape players, and 8-bit Nintendo seem like bliss.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
You're right; Windows definitely makes it easier on the user.
Cool thing is that with the source-code available like it is, nothing prevents someone from putting together a Linux distribution that does the same.
In effect, Microsoft reduces your options and makes many decisions for you so ou can have "an easy, all-in-one upgrade", so all a project would need to do to compete with something like that would be to make the same types of choices for the user.
That sounds like Lindows, doesn't it? I admit I haven't tried it yet, but I think that project is along the line you mentioned.
So with Linux, you get all that, AND the freedom to modify or change any aspect you like.
I'm even more sold on open-source, and the philosophy behind Gnu.
I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
The problem is that you're thinking along a geek train of thought. It's like a political person saying to an apolitical person, "Don't you see, it all makes sense!" and the apolitical person going, "???" Geeks slag off the social sciences all the time as not being "hard enough" or whatever, but they need to understand the subtextual discourses that are happening here that physics and comp sci can't help them with. Until then, they're not even communicating with "average people" on the same frequency. They're both speaking English or whatever their language is but one might as well be speaking Klingon for all the good it's doing them.
Cool thing is that with the source-code available like it is, nothing prevents someone from putting together a Linux distribution that does the same.
This is an example: I and most people don't care about potentials or conditionals, we just care about what is, right now. You can talk all you want about how great OSS is, the amazing possibilities it provides, but I don't care unless it is actually achieving those possibilities this very instant. Further down in your post you mention software philosophies. I guarantee you that very very very very few people care about this, or even would care if they knew there were actually people out there who debated this, of all things.
Cool thing is that with the source-code available like it is, nothing prevents someone from putting together a Linux distribution that does the same.
I've never used Lindows, but yes, that sounds like Lindows. Unfortunately Lindows has to fight an uphill battle. The whole computing experience running Lindows is new and unfamiliar and presents a questionable end-user cost/benefit ratio. (Gotta upgrade Lindows once in a while, too, if you want to be able to keep running the prepackaged stuff they provide and support the latest hardware.) The nub of it is that I and most people don't care about this whole situation, we don't care about supporting the underdogs, we just want something that works, that we can use instantly without messing with. Even the Mac is too foreign for a lot of people. Hastening Linux adoption is not a matter of making more incompatible hacked-together distros... I really don't know what it is, or if it's even possible in the next 10 years. Windows is so entrenched, it works pretty well, it runs ALL the software, and when a new version of it comes out, maybe it doesn't really cost $199 to upgrade after all - wink wink, yeah grandma of course I can burn you a copy. I'm not sure it's possible to compete against that.
In effect, Microsoft reduces your options and makes many decisions for you so ou can have "an easy, all-in-one upgrade", so all a project would need to do to compete with something like that would be to make the same types of choices for the user.
Don't you think that if it were that easy, it would have happened already, and Linux would have more than 1% desktop market share?
I think that if OSS people want the desktop, they need to spend less time writing manifestos and ideological defenses of their positions and more time working together to build solid, cohesive software. Don't tell me OSS is better, show me. OSS has already shown the network stack writers, and the web server writers, or whoever, but it still needs to show the average user.
Yes, you are correct about this (and actually, I'd forgotten about those) -- but still, USB support in any '95 version was sketchy at best. (Remember the fiasco when Bill Gates himself tried to demo the hot-plug USB support and his computer crashed, on stage?)
USB didn't really work the way it was supposed to work until '98 came out.
Well, you do have to pay for the driver development kit. It's $200 for an MSDN subscription, which is required to download it.
And just because it's documented doesn't mean it's easy enough to actually use. Neither Windows kernel was programmed as modularly as the Linux kernel was. It's hacks on top of hacks, and what you write may not work. Besides, you'd have to reverse engineer the hardware most of the time to do it, so it'll take a long time, just as linux has taken with, for instance, Winmodems.
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
On the other hand, Microsoft seems to have stopped supporting the donkey-crossing-the-street game....
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Until this event, I almost never had Win2K Pro crash on me, unlike Win98 which could crash several times a day if it felt like it. On the other hand, I still had to log off or reboot about every other day because the window system gets too wedged to behave properly - so there are still quality problems. Office is the part that gets hung up most often, also IE (even though I do 90% of my browsing with Firebird), but neither one of those should cause the task bar not to reflect what tasks are running or update itself when you switch applications.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks