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Big Brother In Your Front Seat
Rick Zeman writes "Would you give up your privacy in your car to save a few bucks on your auto insurance? 'Safe' drivers who plug an electronic device into their vehicles will be then eligible for a discount on their insurance. They say, '...the device constantly tracks car speed. By comparing that with a clock in the TripSense device, the device figures how far the car goes, mapping it against the time of day. At the end of each policy term, the customer would download the data and see what discount he or she would get. Customers can see all their data before deciding to send it to Progressive, and can decide not to send it -- and not get extra discounts.' I wonder how soon it will be that everyone has one except those resigned to paying extra as with grocery 'convenience' cards."
Stay the f**k out of my life.
I wonder how soon it will be that everyone has one
I wonder how long till someone hacks it to get a discount on their insurance.
Oh and does it run Linux?
Gotta love this. It's entrampment. They assume if you don't wish to upload your driving data that you are a bigger risk.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
Especially if they decide that you should pay more for excessive speeding. How many people actually obey the speed limit all the time?
Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds.There upon the rainbow is the answer to a neverending story
How long until this is hacked? I predict even before it hits the mainstream and they are still running trials.
what's next after that? save a few bucks on health insurance if i walk around with a camera showing i don't smoke?
it's all the lawyers fault anyways. go put the damn black box in their car and see how they like it
vodka, straight up, thank you!
Porsche stock went down 22%
Someone told me once that if you rent an Avis car with GPS capabilities and you are speeding, the system will alert the main office and add fees to your car rental bill. I don't care to verify the story; I drive fast as it is.
Did anyone bother to ask the customers what they want?
How long before we're able to carry a device like this on our person? Why on earth would the medical insurance industry pass up something like this?
You don't have to use it. We don't have to insure you.
Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
the rectifiers might have an IC in it, but I don't think there's anything on it that would have a socket to stick this into. Unless it's a mini GPS with an inertial guidance system, in which I want one for each of my vehicles.
I'd drive any way I want and then I'd just upload information in there that makes me look good! :)
Considering that many cars already now log that last few seconds of your speed in a form that can be subpoenaed, this voluntary data logging and submission represents a step *forward* in users controlling their own risk information and more accurately generating actuary data.
The catch is that you have to be insured by Progressive. Bleh. I had their service for a year, then jumped to State Farm and am paying $300 less per 6-month term then I was before.
Also, what about those of us who constantly go 5 mph above the speed limit? Would we be targeted as reckless drivers because we "speed" most of the time? No thanks.
Mine would say I do 6 MPH below the speed limit at every given time and I never tailgate and always stop for little old ladies in the crosswalk... Regardless of my 110 MPH habits.
Or if I'm going to be crazy for a little bit I'll just deactivate it.
Remember a tip of security of a device... if you can get your hands on it, especially in your house or garage for a matter of months, it's as good as hacked. Other, non-tech savvy people may think otherwise about it though.
I haven't posted in so long, my sig is out of date.
I would gladly install one of these in my car. It would provide hard evidence in the case of an accident or unlawful speeding ticket.
Hey... maybe they should make them mandatory in police cars to stop all those speeding cops... Anyone else notice how cops are immune to the speed limit?
IMO, I think they'd have to offer a little bit more of a discount for the masses to really consider it. I'd slow down a bit if it were worth it. But for someone who may be paying $500/yr for insurance and getting MAYBE 5% off, that's only $25, or maybe $2/month. Just doesn't sound too enticing to me, though some people may jump at the opportunity to save a little. But your results may vary.
Does anyone even remotely believe that children (let's say those under 25 still covered uner their parent's insurance) drive as responsibly as they might tell their parents?
I'll create an amusing sig when I have something meaningful to post.
Because that truck is trying to merge and the assholes next to you and behind you are crowding too close to make slowing down or changing lanes an option that doesn't result in an accident?
Or how about the dumbass who goes slow as hell on the highway, causing more of a danger to others than the guy who goes slightly over the speed limit?
Hell, what about the number of morons I've had to avoid becuase they can't figure out which fucking lane to turn into in a double left turn?
My point is speed isn't the only deciding factor in accidents, and if you have a device that measures only speed, well, it's like asking a blind man to describe the mountain vista to you. He can only say so much about it, in a non-contextual way, in a situation where context is of the utmost importance. It's the reason we don't have automatic pilot on cars yet... context is too important.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
Because once its in there and shows positive statistics, the government might mandate it.
And once THAT happens, it becomes information they could subpoena.
So you get into an accident that you *know* was the other guys fault, but your little black box says you were speeding slightly at the time, and the courts could quickly decide that you really were partially at fault and force your insurance company to pony up (and thus increase your rates) where now the other guys insurance would have to pick it up.
Information you are not in control of will be used to control you. Better it simply not exist at all.
"But remember, most lynch mobs aren't this nice." (H.Simpson)
-- Joe
So if finish work at 11:30pm on my afternoon shift and drive home between 12:00am and 4:00am the discount does not apply?
I suppose if all cars came eqiupped with such a device from the factory, and it had gps, satellite radio, navigation, lojack, a nice color screen, Dvd playback, and all those fancy things. Perhaps it might be worth the 'savings', especially if you could disable it. How long until the police get to use these things against you. "According to your widget here, you just drove 8 miles, while exceeding the posted limit by no less than 6 miles per hour on average. " One day we'll all have to ride in automated cars, just to get around all the idiot drivers, intoxicated drivers, car insurance, super strict laws, and it'll just take the fun out of everything.
just give a discount if there is a governor that is set to 80? What good would this thing do? What if I live in rural Pennsylvania, but take a trip through Michigan to see my sister? Do I have to submit an affidavit that when I was traveling 70mph it was legal?
R: That voice. Where have I heard that voice before? B: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
Report -- You traveled 4 hours this month at speeds of over 100 miles per hour...
-- You traveled 1.2 hours this month at speeds of over 120 miles per hours...
-- It is estimated that you traveled 0.0 hours below the speed limit this month...
-- You traveled 3432 miles this month...
-- You spent 60.4 hours in the car this month...
-- You need a life...
-- You have had 0 girls in the car this month...
-- You have had your laptop in the car for a total of 60.4 hours...
-- LOSER
Nothing like helping the self-esteem and getting a 0$ discount
You aren't required to install it, nor is that proposed.
You do not have to send the information if it shows stuff you don't want Progressive to be aware of.
Its completely opt in, and gives benefits that justify what information is requested.
I wouldn't use it(I'd probably triple my bill if I did:) ), but I think its a good idea and could help a lot of people for minimal disruption of their daily routine, and no unrequested privacy issues.
wow, this is the best idea since Circuit City came out with DIVX
"It's better to be a pirate then join the Navy"
I'd put it in my car. While (possibly) helping with my insurance, the data that this would retrieve would be interesting as it pertains to the mileage I'm getting and so forth.
;)
If I was a law abiding (i.e slow) driver, I'd like this more since it's hard evidence I can show my insurance company with possible and unknown rewards. However, as a young, hotheaded twenty something, my premiums would only go up
- 'Congratulations Mr.Johnson, according to our records you haven't gone above the speed limit in four years.'
- 'And what does that entitle me to?'
- '$30 off your next payment.....oh wait, see here - 1 year ago you went 2 miles over the limit. Make that $15.'
- 'Um...thanks.'
-Teiresias
I wonder how well Progressive's device will corralate with actual accident rates. It can't tell the difference between going 55 on a highway and going 55 in a preschool parking lot. Or, for that matter, 20 mph in the lot, and 20 on the highway.
Hopefully they'll do more than just histogram your speeds -- maybe they'll try to categorize your driving -- local, stop-and-go, freeway -- and then maybe check to see how often you suddenly decellerate. Jazz it up right, and you could detect cell phone usage, too.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
"Does it run linux"
Does it run doom 3?
The only picure I could find for the port is here. It also has infromation about the cable and computer software. Unfortunately their photo of the port itself is a bit small and fuzzy.
The only standard way this data is available on vehicles is via OBD-II. Such dataloggers are already commonly available and used by mechanics to diagnose problems, but here is the real problem -- you could dupe them VERY esily. It would take any sensible programmer with a copy of the (free) standards less than a day to create some kind of simulator that you plug the device into instead of your car.
The only real benefit I see to this problem is that if you call them out on it, you'll probably be able to get the 'safe' rate without having to plug the thing into your own car.
...about this kind of technology. European lorry drivers have had to use tachographs for long time to assist law enforcement in ensuring that driving hours regulations are adhered to. As time has gone on they have become more difficult for drivers to tamper with, so the days are gone when a driver can just 'pull the fuse' on the tachograph when his hours are up and keep on driving.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
any person who has an ez-pass which is the new trend at least on the east coast is already having their travels through toll booths recorded in a database.
if you enter the NJ turnpike at the south end and drive to the north end, its a simple equation to figure out if your average speed was higher than the speed limit.
there are ez-pass scanners everywhere, including buildings all over manhatten. but everyone in the NYC area has them because it makes their lives and their commutes easier (as the name would suggest) and cheaper.
people don't seem to have a problem with those things being recorded if it means they don't have to pay more/ wait in line.
The actuaries tell them that could make substantial rate cuts, and advertise them like crazy (in ads even funnier than Geico's "I just saved a bundle...") if they could only make their process of weeding out relatively dangerous drivers more precise.
I wear a pretty fancy tinfoil hat most of the time, but I'm a safe driver, goddammit, and I can prove it, by my behavior. So: yes, please. I'll take it.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by mere idiocy.
No problem. I don't drive while I'm online.
-
well... over here in BC Canada, the government has a monopoly on car insurance. what can you say to that?
The Neo-Bohemian Techno-Socialist
Papers. Let me see your papers....
It won't be long before they start tracking everyone's movements at this rate.
You think something like this would've stopped with the end of the Soviet Union.
Fear is the enemy; the one true enemy. {Sun Tzu-The Art of War}
Does the thing have GPS to know where I'm going and figure out what the speed limit there is, or do i get insurance discounts because I only ever drive on 25 mph roads... at 45 mph?
We already have this kind of devices. They are mainly targeted at old people, especially the ones living alone. They monitor your heart rate and some other vital statistics, and when they indicate that you're in some kind of trouble, they send an SMS message to a nurse/housekeeper.
Are you discounted for driving only during the day?
Discounted for driving during non-rush hour traffic times?
Peanalized for going excessively fast at night?
Peanalized for accelerating too fast, or braking too fast?
Depending on what the discounts are for, this could be a step too far. But if they weren't too intrusive, it might be a good thing, provided the discounts are big enough. I don't need someone (especially an insurance agency) telling me precisely how to drive, but if their demands were reasonable (like never going over 90MPH) then I don't see major concers with it.
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
One of the stated selling points along with diagnostics etc, was that you could check how far and how fast your kids drive when they borrow the car. And whether it was disconnected.
Hell yeah! What we need is a president with the balls to attack a sovreign country over false or nonexistant weapons charges and manufactured links to terrorists, and then to justify the whole thing by claiming it was done to avenge the dead of 9/11 (which had nothing to do with the matter at hand) and then, when that doesn't pan out, justify it over the thousands of dead civilians that we didn't give a damn about while they were actually going about the whole process of dying! Oh, and he should kill a metric shitload of civilians in the process, just to add to the irony!
w00t! Mod parent up! Vote Ker... erm... Kerry? But you wanted a war... oh, nevermind.
Wow, what a realistic stance on the Kroger cards. If you're *that* concerned about your grocer knowing how much beer and tostitos you buy fill out the card info with fake information or say you forgot your card and punch some random phone numbers after hitting the Kroger button on the little pay terminal.
Wow... This is brilliant on the part of the insurance company.
1. They allow drivers to voluntarily put this device in their cars for reduced insurance rates.
2. Drivers get used to having these devices in their cars.
3. Now that everybody is used to it, it is much easier to require it for insurance. So, they require it for insurance. With a few insurance companies doing it, it becomes the norm.
Of course, the caveat to the insurance companies is that fast driving does not mean dangerous driving. Many drive slower and (seemingly) safer but have more accidents.
Unfortunately, those boxes can't measure driver skill or the situations under which good/bad driving occurs. For example, 100 km/h is safe on the highway unless there is a lot of traffic with heavy rain and/or snow. Also, I drive a van at a fraction of the speed of my sports car. Driving at any speed in a van is much scarier than burning rubber in a sports car.
Sunny
Be my Friend
Big Brother In Your Front Seat (...) "Would you give up your privacy in your car to save a few bucks on your auto insurance?
Give up privacy of my back seat? Never. No way. Okay, okay, certainly not for just few bucks, but serious offers will be considered. Oh, you said "front seat"? No problem then.
Not a fucking chance in fucking hell. Fuck off.
I'd say that mousetrap@pop.com.br this is a good mouse trap!
I print up new barcodes for all my grocery courtesy cards as often as once a week.
Who says that I'll bother sending accurate data to the insurance company? They'll think I'm a 95 yr old grandmother, with the bits I email to them.
I ride motorcycles whenever possible. Lower car insurance due to low miles ( 5k/yr) AND none of my current bikes can support the 'Orwell' tech.
and the data goes by MY HD before going to the company! As good as hacked indeed.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
Sucks. USAA is teh shiznit.
Religion is for people afraid of going to hell.
That depends..
If all my apples cost 20ct/piece for everyone, has for many years, whatever.
And you fill in a form that gets you a bonus card, and entitles you to get them at 15ct/piece.
Does that mean you got a discount ?
Or does that mean everybody else got a surcharge ?
Considering everybody else is still paying their 20ct/piece, as they have in the past, there is no change in the situation for them.
There is, however, for you. You can get them cheaper. You are getting.. a discount.
The situation you're talking about is this..
Apples used to cost 20ct/piece
Then I raise the cost to 25ct/piece, whilst introducing the bonus card. You fill in the info, I get you the bonus card, and you can once again get your apples for 20ct/piece.
Everybody else, however, would be paying the 25ct/piece.
In THAT case.. everybody else is getting a surcharge, whilst nothing changes for you.
Of course you could go halfway. Up the price to 22.5 or 17.5 for those with the card - in which case everybody else would get a surcharge - albeit a 'minor' one, whilst you would still get a discount - albeit a 'minor' one.
That said...
Of course insurance companies will raise the prices for those who opt not to get it. That's been the case for almost every piece of technology, though they're usually smart enough to make this a gradual change.
I.e. at the introduction of airbags, they didn't just raise the price insanely immediately - just gradually, until the time came where most cars do have an airbag - therefore not having an airbag makes you a clear minority.. a minority which, compared to the others, is a liability.
I'm a firm believer in the "idea" of traffic laws. Meaning in the mornings travelling to work in traffic I follow the speed limits accordingly. In the rain I drive a little slower and make sure to keep a good space cushion. I have never been in a car accident.
However come summer time, i'm in my sports car and WILL drive 120mph at 5am on my way to LA for a week, I WILL also go 80-90 when in a hurry and there is no one in fornt of me for the next 75 yards and my speed detector is not "bleeping".
This action would nullify my savings and probably eventually be grounds to give me a ticket in the mail.
In my current town of residence we already have Cameras on every single stop light that take pictures of cars as we go through the intersections on a red or when above a certain speed limit (not like 5-10mph - think 60 in a 25) which IMO is re-god-damn-dick-u-lous.
Now why woudl I want these cameras IN MY CAR in ADDITION to on my streets.
No Thanks. And too all you "good drivers" who NEVER go over the speed limit - just wait till you get your discount nurfed for going to slow...
Ave Molech Setting
How hard do you think it would be to scrub the raw data before uploading it to progressive? I'd probably leave in my morning commute, but edit things like the 85mph trip to El Paso for Thanksgiving. How long do you think it's going to take someone to figure this out?
It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
I don't see these as that useful. Most car speedometers are way off. My Xterra reads 5MPH high. My Jeep Rubicon was 5MPH high stock but is now perfect with 33" tires. So you could speed AND still get the discount!
Your insurance company will know that you drove 80 miles from 11 to midnight! What a terrible terrible breach of privacy!!
Fear big brother kids.....
I wonder if this will also allow them to disapprove claims based on the data they see. "Oh, you were travelling 2 mph over the speed limit at the time of the accident" "I'm afraid we aren't going to pay for anything. Good luck in court"
You are bidding on one (1) Sunday Driver Profile (SDP)package.
Includes:
1 SDP download (compatible with GEICO, AAA, Allstate, Progressive, and Farmers)
1 SDP handbook that includes background information of driving habits for answering those aggressive insurance agents
Don't pay extra for insurance! Let the Sunday Driver profile work for you - guaranteed to meet the specifications of your insurance company or your money back.
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"I used the SDP package and saved 100s of dollars on my insurance! Thanks SDP!" - M. Gecko, San Diego
Self Defense - A Human Right www.a-human-right.com
Have you ever had to make a claim on anything? Do you have Medical Insurance and have you ever gone to a doctor?
I really want to know why it is a 'ripoff'. I have heard many people that have never made a claim on insurance, call it a ripoff. Is it a ripoff because it costs you money?
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
Two points:
1. It won't be opt-in forever. Insurance companies will require it someday, if nobody can defeat it in federal court.
2. Combine that with state-mandated insurance coverage, and you have a deadly intrusion into privacy.
As a side note, I see that even you have a problem with it. You "think it's a good idea" for a lot of people, but not for yourself. Sheesh.
A device that that records on, say, a 30 second loop (i.e. it always has the last 30 seconds of your driving in memory). This would include your speed, weather conditions, relative motion of cars/objects around you, etc. Then, in the event of an accident, this 30 second block of memory is stored for use by accident investigators.
In other words, it only stores data in the event of an accident event, and then only a small block of time surrounding the accident.
Technical hurdles to be sure, but this might be a way to do it without invading privacy.
A goal is a dream with a deadline
The progressive device doesn't include a GPS. So how's the device know if I'm doing 55 down a highway, or 55 down the adjacent local road blowing through red lights?
-- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
How does it measure speed?
What happens if you get stuck in the mud?
I can see it before me:
"Damn, i'm stuck in the mud"!
Speed the engine to 60 MPH, no movement
Get out, push
Get PO, speed the engine to 250 MPH.
A few months passes...
WTF? $40000 insurance bill?
GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
I would just need to reduce the speeds and distances I currently travel, as this might cause an increase to my insurance....
According to the article: In Minnesota, where the highway speed limit is 70 mph, drivers who go over 75 less than 0.1% of the time get an extra 5% discount.
So what happens with the guy that always drives 60, but only drives in the 25MPH school zones? Data without context is worthless!
Plus, on a $1200 annual insurance bill, you'd only save $60 by giving up your privacy...
Things to do today: See list of things to do yesterday
I'm an independent computer consultant, probably like a lot of other Slashdot readers. So, put your business hat on and consider this from that perspective.
Suppose you're bidding on a contract to upgrade/replace a computer system for a potential customer. In order to give a proper cost estimate, you'll need to know as much detail as possible about the requirements. Perhaps this would include something like the average number of transactions per day performed. If all the customer can do is say that there is "a bunch" of transactions, your estimate will be very approximate, and you'll have to pad it accordingly or add a large contingency factor.
However, if the customer could produce for you an automated log of all daily transaction counts for the last month, you would have a precise understanding of what to expect, and could estimate accordingly. This may result in a lower estimated cost, and increase your chances of winning the bid.
Essentially, this is what Progressive is doing - they are asking for more detailed information in an effort to win your continuing business. If you don't provide that information, that's fine... but then they will have to rely on a more approximate estimate of risk, and the quote they provide you with will likely be higher based on less precise information. If you're a prudent businessperson, you'd be trying to do the same thing whereever you can.
Slashdot is entertaining like pro wrestling is entertaining
I wonder how long it will be until these (or something similar) is as "optional" as the breathalyzer - you don't *have* to use it, but if you don't then you get punished.
... there's all sorts of slippery slopes and scary sci/fi (Minority Report anyone?) to worry about.
I'm okay with the breathalyzer - that makes sense mostly; you've already been stopped, presumably for driving erratically. However, when/if we start applying Bush's preemptive foreign policy towards potential crime as well
They give you the data before you send it in. I assume it would be pretty easy to rewrite the data in order for you to maximize your "discount."
But that would be wrong.
-DropIt!
One Nation, Under Surveillance.
CB(s?)
free ipod and free gmail!
Well I for one welcome our new Overlo.....
Never mind... Too easy.
Has Comcast disconnected your Internet account? Same here. You can read about it at http://comcastissue.blogspot.com
You still have a choice among insurance companies. Choose one that doesn't snoop into your business.
Older cars that don't have the latest OBDII (on board diagnostics II) probablly won't work with these new devices....so just drive old cars (like 1970-1980's cars.
If I can see this data before I send it, then I can hack it. My discount = $$. My driving = whatever I want.
We're the Wal-Mart generation; why pay more if you can get it for less, regardless of the *true* cost. So come one, come all; trade in your freedoms and enjoy 10% off your first purchase, because soon, you won't have a choice anyway!
CB(t?)
free ipod and free gmail!
How about cops having to wear a cathetor that detects how many donuts they consume per day? The numbers are then compiled at the end of the year and if they've eaten too many donuts then their health insurance goes up? Makes sense since some donut scarfing bastard just gave my ass a ticekt for doing 79 in a 55. In my state that's a $298 ticket. total fucking bullshit!
79 isn't even fast. I've done 160 on my R6 numerous times this year but no "donut downers" in sight:)
You aren't free to do anything, until you've lost everything.
If rates are going to rise, and they always do, why not have bad driver bear the brunt of the increase.
Then install tictac box in Mom's Buick.
Then wait for deep discount.
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
Lawyers aren't this smart. Its the actuaries. Actuaries are the ones who have to pass 8 math exams involving statistcs, calculus, probability theory, informatino theory, etc. to get and keep their jobs. Lawyers just have to pass the bar. And insurance companies pay actuaries to think of this sort of thing. They only pay lawyers to figure out how to make it legal.
Mathematics is not a crime.
With performance tuning these days, that port is useful for things like On Board Diagnostics I know its crazy but its true. Some people do use that port to do things like tune their cars. If the insurance company requires me to keep this thing plugged in for my discount, will I still be allowed to unplug it now and then for such an insurance unfriendly task as performance tuning or SMOG checks? Will the device log that its been unplugged and prevent me from getting my discount. Even worse, what if, regardless of my good driving, the insurance company see's a modification to my engine managament software it doesn't like? Do I get screwed? Then there is the whole market of products developing around putting vehicle diagnostic data onto Fast and Furious style displays or even integrating it with other systems such as GPS. That market will pretty much be screwed, or at least slowed, if it doesn't have access to that port anymore. Its a slippery slope at best
Comment removed based on user account deletion
They say it's optional now, but what happens when they make it mandatory?
Insurance Agent: Before you failed to stop in time and rear-ended someone, you were going 36 in a 35. I'm sorry, your full coverage policy doesn't cover speeding!
Ardente veritate incendite tenebras mundi
I've always maintained that there's a big difference between driving fast and driving dangerously.
I'm waiting for the first virus to alter any files transferred from the device to show that the driver constantly moves along at just below the speed of light ("I was wondering what that color shift was all about ...").
To any company that demands we use such devices: Anything you come up with we will successfully hack. Resistance is futile.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity but they've always worked for me" - HST
I'm already ahead of the curve. I ditched my car and started using public transportation and the ankle express because the automotive and insurance industries had already squeezed the last drop out of this turnip.
Sure, I walk more, and get derided by my coworkers, and have to put up with horrible commuting hours, and have to carry an umbrella every time I go somewhere (just in case), and get demeaning looks from everyone in society...
But it has nothing to do with social classes, or social engineering, or rich vs. poor, because ultimately it's my choice. No one is forcing me not to have a car. No one's forcing me to walk everywhere. I still get the same opportunities that everyone else gets. I have yet to be turned down by any hot chick who has subsequently been picked up by a "responsible citizen" who owns their own transportation. There are no hidden systems at play.
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
It's just like grocery store member cards, you start using them, you save right? Wrong, initially, maybe, but now, by using them, you're paying what you would have paid before the program existed and if you don't use the card you're hosed.
Same thing with this: You start out saving money, prices creep back up to normal. Those that refuse to submit to the program are hosed.
BTM
That was the turning point of my life--I went from negative zero to positive zero.
what they should be trying to invent is a device that records the OTHER drivers, the ones that drive like MORONS on the road, and force me to swerve and maneuver out of the way... and how it's THEIR fault if I get into an accident.
That's not always true. I tend to be a bit of a speed demon, but the single accident I was in did not involve that at all -- I slowed down to watch an ambulance stop at a red light (to make sure he's not going through), and then as I was accelerating into the green, he pulled out. No lights, no sirens, nothing.
I slammed on my brakes and missed him by about 2 feet; looked right into the face of the EMT who was driving, because he realized what he had done and stopped in the middle of the intersection. Unfortunately, as I craned forward to look for his ambulance number, planning on filing a report on the bastard, a minivan rear-ended me, sending my head into the steering wheel.
The ambulance driver, a real charitable fellow, immediately threw his siren on and took off. The FD had to come clean up the chemical spill from the totalled minivan.
Would have liked a camera there.
darius
And that would of course include 99% of all drivers...
What are they thinking?
... or will their devices be rigged?
Not only is there obviously possible entrapment but what data exists that driving at the exact speed limit makes you a safer driver?
There are many other situations this will not cover: changing lanes without a turn signal, running lights, tail gaiting, driving *under* the speed limit (which can be just as unsafe), and drive-by shooting?
All of these could be more unsafe than going 10 MPH over the limit. Are they going to start monitoring that too? Will they forward high speeds to the police to fine you? What I would like to know is who will be monitoring the insurance agents' cars
You're saying that speed is the primary determinant if someone is a good driver. Its not.
The primary determinant of a good driver is "Do they get into accidents". If I have a perfect record for 30 years, but drive fast, then am I a danger?
Its silly.
The little old lady who can't see very well, who can't physically turn the wheel, and has scraped a few fenders in the parking lot, but is always driving slowly, in your world, she's a safe driver.
Do you see the flaw here?
Sure, just give the box registered in your name to your mother, or grandmother.
Alternatively, turn the box on only for "safe days", i.e. when you're driving slow because of traffic or alcohol consumption.
If you donate to their pension fund and put that little sticker they send you on your car, they'll be more inclined to let you go. It's not the get out of ticket free card that being a cop is, but unless you were doing something radical or they're WAY under quota, you'll likely just get off with a warning.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
How does it know you're breaking the law, and where's my right of appeal? There's no mention as to the accuracy of the program. If - for example - I'm driving from a 40mph limit into a 30mph limit, and I hit 30 just before or just after the 30 sign post, do I take a hit on my premium?
What if they get it wrong? Do I have a right to appeal?
I complain regularly about speeding drivers, but this is not a good solution!
The ways of gods are mysteriously indistinguishable from chance.
They will first threaten Slashdot with a lawsuit, the news of that lawsuit gets out, then the instructions are mirrored. Then the hacking instructions will be the most downloaded thing on the internet -- more than porn.
Fight Spammers!
I've filled out forms for at least 5 of those, and never once have I given real information. It's not as if that's checked stringently, or at all. They issue the card right there after you hand them the paper work.
If they're going to start doing this they might as well put a governor on my car that rev limits it the the mph of the current road I'm on.
I speed all the time. Usually only 5-9 over but I push the limits.
I do 10-80s every once in a while getting onto the highway when no one is around. This can't be good for my insurance rates which are currently excellent.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
"It's called growing up. Try and get some."
Simply speeding does not convey guilt or innocence. But people like you have it drummed into their heads that speeding is so wrong, so heinous, that anyone who drivers faster than 55MPH must be crazy and reckless therefore they *MUST* be guilty of something.
If a guy goes through a red light and hits me, and I was 5MPH over the speed limit, where is the justification for my being at fault? None. But the emotional pitch "Oh, he was speeding, and so he was just as crazy as the other guy" doesn't hold up to any kind of logical reasoning, but juries are swayed by emotion, and lawmakers design laws for emotion not logic.
You know how politicians always say "Americans are smart, they know....". Its not true. Most Americans are dumb as a post, and don't wish to think about things outside their miserable jobs, their SUV, and what they're going to do with their weekend (Lets watch NASCRAP!)"
I put you in that majority.
How useful would this be though, if you speed? I drive 20+ miles of highway each way on my commute. The speed limit is 65. Everyone is at 70+. What about neighborhoods where the limit is 30? As long as I don't have to send the data, I might consider it, but what is use if I'd never send the data since I speed.
The only people that would use this are the ones that can't, seniors that drive 55 in the right lane while people fly by them (at least you hope they are in the right lane).
How long until technology like this becomes madatory? How long until to drive you need to blow into a device to make sure you are not drunk and then the car won't go above the speed limit, etc?
I wouldn't mind being entramped a little, even if I had to pay more for my insurance...<G>
----
WWJD...For a Klondike Bar?
Actually, you're allowed to self insure if you can afford it - usually requires a decent amount of cash in escrow or something. However, would you rather drive knowing that if some dipshit hits you, you're screwed?
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
> Stay the f**k out of my life
That is exactly what Progressive is doing by making it voluntairy. There is a big difference between having the choice to voluntarily share information about your life's activities (TripSense) versus actually being physically forced to share it against your will (George Orwell's "1984"). You are more than welcome to not use the device and continue paying the rates you are paying now if your privacy is worth more than the amount of savings you get by mathematically proving you are less likely to crash your car. Now when the government starts legislating that you must use this device against your will or when the government steals this data from an insurer and slaps them with a gag order (as has happened with the grocery discount cards to profile the eating habits of a potential terrorists), then you have something to worry about.
Now please explain to me how having a choice between lowering your rates in exchange for less privacy, or keeping the rates you already pay now, harms you. Or do you think that insurance companies should not pry into personal information to determine your risk, such as age, gender, neighbourhood, speeding tickets, and past car crashes?
"The State is that great fiction by which everyone lives at the expense of everyone else." -Frederic Bastiat.
I wonder if this machine will take into account the valid excuses for exceeding the speed limit(travelling the speed of traffic). It wouldnt be that hard to check all the cars closest to yours on the highway especially if all them things know where they are anyway and see if everyone is traveling that speed. If so then it shouldnt affect your insurance adversely.
It is similar to a holofect sensor.
That's "Hall Effect" sensor, by the way.
If this is to be used exclusively to determine the distance travelled, you realize there is an existing device in every single car designed to so just this?
THE ODOMETER!
From the article:
"The technology will track some combination of when, where, how far and how fast they drive, giving insurers a way to reward low-risk driving."
RTFA.
my 75 Cadillac and 78 Suburban don't have computers however my 90 astro does .. Darn
Let's get this straight. Slow doesn't mean reliable and quick doesn't mean unsafe. At least until you get to the extremes... How do they propose to come up with any sort of metric which claims to know how safe a driver you are? By speed? When and where? I don't drive but it seems to me that this is as nutty as IQ as an intelligence metric.. Great for the lion tamer wannerbees but horrid for anyone else. In a city environment, how (and upon what rational evidence) are they going to tell who is crazy and who deserves a special bonus? Hmm. Corruption. We've got it...
"but I imagine that a whole lot of people that try this will be disappointed in the end because their premiums don't go anywhere but up because only the most cautious drivers actually go the speed limit or slower ALL THE TIME. Most people speed, and the insurance companies probably have the statstics to prove it."
/. still fall for it. Pathetic.
Speed is not an indicator anything but velocity. The people who want to believe it means something about reckless driving are the sheep that form the bulk of the population, like or dislike something because they're told to like or dislike it.
Speeding means nothing, but because emotionally we think it does, it gives the insurance companies the moral weight to "enforce" speeding laws via higher rates.
And how soon until the local cops say "Hey, you broke the law, we want those records to begin fining drivers, because they're all DANGEROUS!".
Silly and stupid. And yet people here on
Yeah ... that's it. Say I leave it plugged in for 2 miles a month. Surely they can't mandate that I drive a prescribed distance per month. I'll just unplug it for the rest of the month, and get the cheap rate....
Since the OBDII interfcae is fairly standard, it seems like it would be easy enough to build an interceptor to plug in between the device and your OBD port that just mad sure it capped the reported speed at some realistic value, like 73...
The thing about the device that seems stupid to me is it can't tell what kind of roads you drive on. I make it a point to almost never take the highway, so in my case an average reported speed of 75 would make me quite a risk! But from the standpoint of the insurance company it would be just fine.
I image if they were smart they would also measure things like accelleration, and figure out if you are hitting the gas too hard - sure you might save 5% for a while but I'll bet they could build up a set of data that would let them really increase rates later based on all kinds of wierd things detected from your driving habits (like panic braking too often).
I would only hope that it would have accelerometers to detect weaving of the car, for those people that just can't seem to figure out where the lanes are...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
What people don't realize is that these little black boxes are already happening without people's consent. I work for a luxury car company, and this is standard. I should know. I'm the one that programs the replacements for when the originals breakdown. It has been for years. It's just a matter of time before it works it's way down to "low end" vehicles.
*slight crashing sound*
Nice straw men... claiming that going 70 MPH on a 60 MPH is the moral equivalent of killing children is a common trick with the self-righteous crowd, and it may even fool a few baby-factories in your neighborhood, but the fact is that most people drive at those "crazy" speeds without incident.
However, I know people who shouldn't be allowed to drive at any speed, but always stay under the speed limit, running into things, causing traffic problems, but you equate Slow=Safe.
Really, try to think through things instead of jerking your leg like that. You'll pull a muscle.
I really hope they sort out the police issue with this. Its not like they don't already take that black box data to use against you in court. I can see this becoming such a mess.
Guess what! I have good news: My wife just had a baby.
But dude, you took her to the hospital at 2 AM on a saturday.
Shit. I just lost a bundle on my car insurance.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Because someone will always find the hack around it. Some of us don't have OBDII cars, I have an 88' VW that doesn't even have proper EFI let along a way for them to check any of that great info.
Let them try and make me get rid of my car. It gets 30+mpg and can pass a smog test without trying and do all of this at 80pmh. Guess Dodge will have to kill it's entire truck line before my car goes away.
Top that off with the fact that any other means to track something in my car should be able to eb stopped with a nice led box. There is always a way around this kind of gestoppo crap. Too many of the people of this country will poke and prod these things untill there is a way to make them useless or unreliable. Hell, the car manufactures can't even make a good car anymore, these people can't build a hackproop box.
Trying to be different, just like everyone else.
This can be used for evil, hell anything can be used for evil.
But this could also save your ass in a lawsuit, especially if the other driver who hit you screams that you hit him at highspeed. and if it shows your speed was normal, and shows his (if he has one) was going at highspeed *POW* he's fucked.
however, this can also be used in the wrong as well, such as getting tickets for going over the speed limit at any time (and if you know anything about driving, you need to sometimes speed up because of someone on your tail or to change lanes, and other events, and uncommon events as well)
Do we know the criteria? Obviously speeding is gonna ba a no-no; "Sir, you lost 1% for each infraction, that is over a year...hmm 100% hence no discount"
Or even worse, your gonna get grannies driving along single lane carriageways at 5mph to keep their insurances as low as possible so that they can afford to heat their home come winter...
Anyway, someone somewhere will hack it and find a way to put linux on running divx's to the satelite navigation system...
When all is said and done, nothing changes...
So if you're going 16 in a 15mph zone, and I drive into the side of your car by running a stop sign while going 15mph, you're at fault?
Awesome. Where do you live?
A few simple thoughts from a simple mind:
/.ers are welcome to continue driving 75 mph in residential areas.
1. In Minnesota, the test state, not all highways are posted at 70 mph. Using OBD II data, they will only know how fast you were going, and at what time. All you
2. Need to speed? Unplug the thing before those trips. The OBD connector is dead as a doornail when the car is shut off. Even if the thing does a continuity test, it's a very basic dongle to piece together.
3. If it can be read, it can be reverse engineered. Like we are usually victims of technology, right...
4. For a reasonable up front fee, I will help you find the names of other companies you can buy insurance from.
5. Speeding tickets are just a tax for going fast. This is just another part of the cost. Cowboy up, geek boy!
" I've never understood the "joy" of driving."
Some of us can control our cars so well that we can slide the ass end out, pick a daisy off the side of the road, spin it around, pick a daisy from the other side, and then keep going never breaking a sweat.
Every time we're out on the road, we strive to get better. We understand the freedom to drive is the freedom to travel however and whenever we want.
The more I think about it, the more you make me sick.
And switched to Geico, dropping my premiums by 350$ a year.
I've had no accidents (I was tboned when a guy ran a stopsign) and no tickets.
They dropped my homeowners 8 months later AFTER I switched to geico. No reason given.
Thing is I hear/read sentences starting with Would you give up your privacy in ... lately. And this doesn't make me happy in any (un)imaginable way.
It just starts by giving up a bit. And at the end there remains nothing to be given up anymore. This wouldn't bother me in any way, unless it's all about our privacy and personal freedoms (which were held sacrosanct in now seemingly forgotten ancient times).
I don't think I wish my children to grow someday into a world where freedom and privacy tend to loose their meaning.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
Couldn't you just take it out or disable it when you want to speed, race, etc?
Switch it on when grandma is borrowing the car and goes 25 on the 45mph roads for good rates.
Generic Response: "Let's Hack it" ...
The problem with this is that it can be found out, by relating the odometer to the speeds(higher speeds use and inefficiently larger amount of gas), and therefore, would be extremely easy to prove as insurance fraud, which itself is shitty, and is why insurance rates are so high! Like in my home state of New Jersey
This sig is o Unfunny o Funny
The only problem I can see with that plan is the device can tell how many miles you go, and if the total number of miles recorded disagrees with your odometer reading they might deny you coverage.
I wonder about people who do things like race cars on the weekends though, there have to be some valid reasons to disconnect the box without dropping coverage.
The whole thing is too screwey to me, no way would I get such a box.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
With the VW it is physically impossible to go that fast (without solid rocket bosters welded to it), so it's no big deal. Honestly I would MUCH rather it drove it self.
The Ducati...How can I say this...it is not possible to restrain it to the speed limit in the town I live in (mostly 30km which I mostly ignore).
Obviously I don't use this "progressive" insurance though but I think this sort of thing for everyday drivers is no big deal, how fast do you need to go to work and to the store? I can choose not use it on my Ducati :).
Additionally I most add I have lived in the US and for the love of all that is holy Somebody needs to teach y'all how to drive! ;-)
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Depends on your driving habits. I speed. I also haven't (knock wood) gotten in an accident in 10 years, and I haven't received a ticked in four (in my province). Does that not make me a safe driver? I don't think so personally.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
if this is available in my area (i haven't read the article yet), i'd definitely sign up for it, as I'm usually a pretty decent driver, its worth it to me to save a few bucks every month...
now, if it knew where I was going, it might be a different story...
e to the pi i plus one equals zero
Presumably, once they get some data on the link between accidents and refusing to turn in the data, they will raise the rates for those who "take the 5th" and offer even bigger discounts for the rest of us. So the crazies will have the choice between paying higher rates or driving sanely. Too bad for them, better for the rest of us. Just so long as they don't put in a GPS and tell the White House Office of Dirty Tricks (whatever they're calling it these days) who's going to peace marches, etc.
Say I have this device attached to my car and on the weekend go out to a dragstrip or road course to race. How will I prove that the time/speed entries showing high speeds were done on a dragstrip and not public highways? I would presume that if I remove the device for the afternoon while I am racing then there will be a gap in the logs that will be questionable. And please don't say "oh you just send them your timeslips and they will adjust your discount" because thats just rediculous.
how long before the system is hacked, and you can download highly optimized driving profiles ready to upload to your insurance company right off the web. :)
I can see how it gets distance and an average speed, but how would it know I was doing 45 MPH in a 30 MPH zone or 45 MPH in a 50 MPH zone? Do they have GPS built into them? Also if its got GPS, how accurate would the data be? I40 is always undergoing construction, so sometimes the speedlimit is 45 MPH, while at other times it is 70 MPH.
I signed up for a Stop and Shop card a week or so ago, because they offer about a nickel off their gas, which is priced two cents higher than the cheapest guys. So... three cents on gas. But, of course, the bored kid behind the desk doesn't even look at the application before handing me a card.
Say hello to "John Whorfin".
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
Though worded a little agressively, I agree. Slower doesn't always equate to safer, sometimes people who drive a little faster are much more attentive. If one scans the road they can determine very well the intentions of other drivers and react accordingly.
Cameron, NOOOOOOO!!!!
*Screeeeee* *crashhhhhh*
You know what?
at one time too....
... 50% of every paycheck I get (after tax, etc), goes straight to insurance companies. Not giving me much else to live off of. I hate this. I only drive to and from work, I don't goof off, or do stupid shit. I just want to get back and fourth to work, and live happy. I can't stand having this tax on something that is now nesessary to live in this world. There is no way I could get back and foruth to work without my car. I havn't had an accident or wreck yet, and don't plan to. I'm only like 1-2 miles from work. I can't bike or walk it though, since the entire city is based around a highway that you get pulled over on for biking on or walking on.
Sig: I stole this sig.
This is silly. First the Xbox gets hacked, they E-Voting gets hacked, and Progressive thinks they can stick a little black-box in your car that won't get hacked so that all the data can be fudged?
This is a great idea! I plan to save lots of money on car insurance! I will suddenly become the safest driver in the US (according to my little black box). Never mind all my tickets and accidents.
I knew my BS in CS would come in handy eventually. Maybe I should just outsource hacking the black-box to India. Any takers? Do Indians get to read slashdot?
This couldn't be too terribly hard to fake. Get a BASIC Stamp or Atmel AVR board and build a fake ODBII (it is an "open standard", after all) interface. Write some code that fakes enough of ODBII and generates convincing driving patterns, and you've suddenly lost another loan to Ditech. No, wait, you've suddenly gotten a bonus on your insurance, and can drive as shittily as you'd like! Isn't technology grand?
I am not a fan of grocery convience cards and I tend to agree with the posts that lean towards something like this is a loss-leader from the insurance company, so nothing more needs to be said about that.
What i would like to see is maybe insurance companies giving kick-backs to those who do maintence on cars similar however not exactly like health insurance lord knows american health insurance doesn't have issues either. You get your car fixed/repaired or annual maintence (ala jiffy lube) of some kind you get a discount for keeping your car in good running condition. less obtrusive and certinaly would keep those bastard s blowing black smoke in rush hour traffic from bliding my view.
Rather than just speed, distance and time of day I think there are some more telling statistics the could record:
1. Acceleration/deceleration rates. Constantly starting from traffic lights at full throttle or stomping the brake just before turning in to a driveway? Higher rate.
2. Lights. Don't turn your headlights on at sunset? higher rate.
3. horn. constantly honking in traffic? Aggressive driver or poor planning. Higher rate.
4. Turn signals. Use them, get a lower rate. Don't your rate goes up.
To me those stats go more toward being a safe driver than simply vehicle speed. Speed doesn't kill, it's the sudden changes in speed that injure. If just speed killed, we should all be dead; we're all traveling a t perhaps 100,000 miles per hour all the time
Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
Personal experience here. I was hit and run in November. My insurance company WAS (key word...now) Progressive. They didn't even fill out any of the paperwork for the accident until Jan. They've dropped the ball about 20 times so far. It's now August 10th, and I spoke with the insurance company of the person who FELONY hit and run on me last week. They've already sent a guy out here and are talking about how we're going to settle this up. Progressive never bothered to return my calls, or for that matter, didn't bother to return the calls of the other companies agent.
Progressive is a perfect example of getting what you pay for. They're fast at taking your money, but they rarely even bother to return calls when you need them. Let alone take care of business....No wonder I cancelled them.
Having experienced the horrible traffic in New Jersey and NYC, I'd say catching people speeding is not exactly high on the list of priorities.
As for Boston, I guess the only reason people there buy cars that go over 35 mph is for out-of-town travel.
Grocery cards aren't a privacy invasion. I only put fake names on those when I fill them out. And they always take it with out validating. That most likely will not work with Progressive, so that data is directly related to you and your social security number.
You can be a very unsafe driver at 25 miles an hour, and a very safe one at 100.
I would like to see insurance companies invest some federal lobbying funds in trying to make the driving test a little more stringent, and improving driver education. Most drivers aren't aware that a 10,000lb hummer will take longer to stop than a geo metro, and have maybe 5 times the human squashing energy - even at 25mph.
What your saying is that speed differential causes a problem, and you are correct.
That means the person going 45 MPH on a highway is just as unsafe as someone going 75 MPH, assuming everybody else is travelling 60 MPH.
However, what you're also implying is that posted speed is somewhat irrelevant; what's more critical to safety is the average speed that drivers are actually driving.
If you're on some interstate in Montana where most drivers are travelling at 80MPH, it is a danger in the extreme to be going 55MPH.
But nobody seems comfortable to admit the obvious.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
The speed limits have nothing to do with safety and everything to do with municipal revenue. Google "85th percentile" if you want to learn more.
Yeah, right.
Where I live, we have two kinds of people: those who drive around all the time and shop at the loyalty-card supermarkets, and those who take the public transit (or bike) and shop at the small independent stores.
The first group pays more, maybe they make more, and blow their horns more and communicate with their fingers more too. Its members also insist on keeping their lifestyle but want to enjoy the benefits of being in group two. That won't happen. Another problem is that in many areas, there are so few of the second group that public transit and small stores have disappeared as a viable option.
Nothing goes faster than 299,792,458 m/s, right?
"A witty saying proves nothing." ~Voltaire
"d'Oh!" ~Homer
Whilst I'm no fan of "loyalty" cards (and indeed have taken out cards with false info and swapped cards with others on numerous occasions), my own calculations show that the discounts available typically average out at about 1%. Not sixty per cent. Note also that the auto insurance companies already have your name and address, and know a fair bit about your driving history too (at least, as far as claims are concerned). Assuming that they're not going to be tracking exactly *where* you go, what exactly is your problem? Anything that makes bad drivers bear more of the true costs of their own selfish actions is worth consideration, IMO.
OBDII is a serial protocol that would be a bit harder to hack than the speedometer pulse wire.
Schematics to build the interface, and OS source code to write your own program available here
If you were really that bothered, you could build a passthru device, that only reported what you wanted. Or, record a couple of nice sedate drives to work, then play them back into the insurance companies scanner once a day.
This WILL get hacked.
"If you want peace, work for justice."
That's a very profound truth. Wars are fought because of injustice. Oppressed peoples don't just lash out at random; they understand their circumstances perfectly. Al Qaeda would not have attacked the USA if the USA didn't richly deserve it. No war ever happened without a good reason. I mean, unless the stupid Americans started it.
It's oversimplistic just to talk about killing civilians as if it were always wrong.
Actually, the UN High Commission on Human Rights has stated that groups engaged in liberational struggles aren't bound by international humanitarian law. They can kill whoever they like, provided the victims are members of an ethnicity not well represented on the UNHCHR. The UNHCHR is in charge of deciding which humans have rights and which ones don't. They do a pretty good job. They've never yet got into trouble with the General Assembly on this issue; they never stick it to a group that anybody gives a damn about.
If it is tested out first on politicians, police, judges, insurance execs, and highway patrol officers (just like new invasive style laws should be) with the information made publically available.
Also, the formulas for determining your insurance should be available to you so you can change your behavior accordingly.
Like buying organic produce vs "regular" ones. This might be optional, but as more and more sheep^Wpeople sign up, the price differential will increase until you'll end up paying double (for example) just to opt out of this program.
This happened in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, Canada.
The Mayor was caught drinking and driving. The police halled him into the station where the cheif of police promotely gave the keys back the Mayor and wished him on his drunken way.
At least the chief of police lost his job because of it.
Sad thing is the Mayor should have been thrown in jail and made someone's bitch. He was caught because he was seen leaving a party and driving his wife's car and someone reported him. He could not drive his own car because he already had one of those devices on it that you have to breath into to make it work. So the mayor knew he was drunk and planned how to get home drunk. When he was caught he bullied the cheif of Police into letting him go. A little bit too much power for the pea brain.
You guys really need a data protection act. Those grocery cards companies have to keep your data private and tell you exactly what they have on you whenever you ask, why, and how they process it - same with the car.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
That's why I'm thankful we have a (somewhat) free market. ...
If Progressive somehow eventually requires its customers to have this device, then so what? You can always switch to another insurance company.
Or go without insurance. Sure, it's illegal, but it is ultimately your choice, after all.
Or, you could go the most extreme route of all -- don't drive a car. Probably not a feasible solution out here in the Southwest, but if you live in a big city, sure, you could do it.
It's all about how much you're willing to sacrifice in order to give the corporations the finger.
"Sometimes", but mostly not. Usually the go-fasties are go-fastying just to get there, not from some innate love of the handling of the car. They are also drinking their coffee, changing their radios, dialing their cell-phones, and doing other distractive stuff.
All while go-fastying.
"I've got good news. I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance because I'm a 1337 hax0rz."
Just disconnect the thing anytime you feel the need for speed, then reconnect it afterwards. There's always a way around the system. Just like the grocery cards -- I filled out my grocery card application with a fake name and address, and haven't had a problem.
You're doing it too.
You can't stay on topic, you combine speeding with cell phones, eating in the car, and a bunch of stuff that makes bad drivers.
But you don't address the topic of speed.
If I drive at the speed limit and talk on my phone am I safe? But if I go 1 MPH faster than I'm unsafe?
Most people drive quickly to get there more quickly. Most people who drive slowly are people who can't walk and chew gum at the same time, but think they're good drivers because they're at the speed limit. In reality, they're the worst of the worst.
Another emotional pitch. Maybe it will play well in Florida
This device is no conditio sine quae non to get car insurance at progressive: Progressive sees it as an option to offer lower rates with limited risks on their side. And even if it were compulsory, you're still free to get your car insurance somewhere else...
If Progressive somehow got their hands on this kind of data without your consent, then we'd be talking about big privacy issues. Now it's just a company trying to lure clients from the ideal (ie: crash-free) demographic...
Okay... I'll do the stupid things first, then you shy people follow.
[Zappa]
You are. You seem to be proud of it. Great. But you're still a loser. You may even be a nice guy, but you're still a loser.
Loser.
L
is for LOSER.
Loser.
And New Mexico almost passed a law requiring all vehicles to be equipped with ignition interlock devices requiring the driver to test their breath every 10 minutes, regardless of the driver's record!!!
Insurance companies offering discounts for safe drivers is okay with me, even if it involves using tracking technology, but what about the state going after drivers before they even pose a danger to others?
Hmm?
Because statistically, talking on the phone while driving is almost as dangerous as driving while drunk, both are several hundred percent more likely to get you into an accident than speeding alone and neither are going to be picked up by any black boxes in cars. Speeding is only targeted because it's easy, not because it's a significant factor.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
I wish you Americans would just lay off all the guns and stuff like that. You hurt a lot of good Germans!
It comes down to choice.
The place where speed sensing devices are obtrusive, unjust and downright wrong is when they are mandatory.
As long as you have a choice to NOT use it, even if it costs more is right. When you can't drive without one of these things legally, that is not right.
I don't believe in slowing down everyone just because a handful of people abuse the system, whether it is or is not for the public good.
Sound a little bit like the RIAA/MPAA and FAIR USE??? , dejavu man.
CATCH THE ABUSES AND LEAVE THE REST OF US ALONE DAMN IT!!
This goes out to all governments, police forces and policy makers out there at all levels of government.
From an Economics perspective, this idea makes a lot of sense. The car insurance company is dealing with imperfect information - they don't know exactly how much of a risk you are and how much money you are going to cost them.
Since this risk factor is the largest part of determining how much to charge for insurance (any insurance, including financial ones like options or futures contracts) they want to be able to better assess how much they should actually charge.
The part of this that's a "crime" is that the discounts they offer for not speeding - which is arguably for most drivers a small determinant of accident risk - are too small to be worth the social cost of giving up the right not to be monitored. This will fail in the market because other companies will still be able to offer competetive rates without invading privacy.
If they (and you) had a perfect estimate of the risk of you costing the company money, then you would be able to pay exactly how much you would be expected to pay in damages.
This generally isn't the case today, as many people pay more for the risk of bad drivers.
In a road full of people going ~5mph above the speed limit (which is most of them), it is impossible to do the following going at "only" the speed limit: .1% (1 second in just under half an hour), such as:
1. Change lanes
2. Merge (this one's even harder)
3. Stop quickly (for a deer, an accident, a child...) without causing an accident with the (dumb) driver behind you. I know full well that the other driver would be at fault in this accident, but it's still an uphill battle to get any amount of money out of another driver's insurance, assuming that they have any to begin with.
Furthermore, there are situations which require speeding up beyond your current speed, which can easily add up to more than
1. Merging in New Hampshire (people here just don't know how to do it) or Massachusetts (people here are deliberately malicious and seem to want to run you off the road), and most likely in many other states
2. Allowing others to change lanes (some of us DO actually do this)
3. Pass someone (I feel MUCH more secure with the weaving, possibly drunken driver FAR behind me than in front of me)
-Amalcon
The insurance companies are just adopting the same "guilty until proven innocent" mentality...
Last I heard, insurance companies often tend to use actuarial tables to decide things. That's because they're in business to make money.
In some US states, of course (e.g. Massachusetts), there are all kinds of wacky laws controlling what insurance companies can do. Much like government-mandated smoking bans in restaurants and bars, these laws would be unnecessary if they weren't at odds with reality: If there were a market for non-smoking bars, they would succeed on their own. In the absence of a ban, non-smoking bars are scarce as hen's teeth. QED, baby. QED.
Well, that's what we get for living in Cotton Mather's back yard.
So I wouldn't start hiding under the bed just yet, however repulsive this may be. And I would be more concerned about the inevitable irrational behavior of state legislatures than about the merely probable irrational behavior of people who do, after all, have to show a profit every quarter.
And while we're on the subject of presumption of guilt, notice the alarming number of posters in this discussion who seem to assume that speeding causes accidents. Personally, I doubt that. It's the comatose morons ambling along at 70 mph in the left lane who aren't paying attention to their fucking surroundings. If idiots like that didn't exist, there'd be no need for responsible drivers like me to do dangerous things like tailgate them at high speed, pass them on the right while throwing shit at 'em out the window, etc. Sometimes the only answer is to shoot the dumb bastard. Gunfire on public roads is not safe; those who leave me no choice but to open fire have a lot to answer for.
"Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive" -- hey, that's me!
Just so you know, the cameras that are usually setup at those stops can see the difference. You can actually count the value of the coins in the air if they slow the tape down.
What the hell? This counts as an invasion of privacy? What? Did the submitter or the editor even read the goddamned article?
The device records mileage and average speed. It has no GPS. It has no built-in maps. It has no compass. It has no ALIEN MIND CONTROL DEVICES.
This is an opportunity for an insurance customer to lower their insurance costs by voluntarily proving that they are a statistically safer driver. Nothing more. It is not an attempt by insurance companies to find out that you went to 3rd Street and Hennepin Avenue to have kinky sex with a stevedore and a transvestite hooker.
Good lord. Shut off the paranoia already.
Actually, you can get a grocery card without actually handing them the information sheet. The easy way to do it is to go up to the register, look at your keychain, say "crap, it looks like my card fell off". They'll get out a new one, swipe it for you, and tell you to turn in the form after they ring you up. Pay for your groceries and leave. Not at all hard. This insurance thing is a lot creepier. I'm not so much worried about Progressive, since they let you review the data before you send it, but the next step on the slippery slope won't be so friendly.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
Of course I wouldn't like that. Even for few bucks less for the insurance, I still value my privacy much more!
http://www.hdtv-info.org/forum-19.html/
SO rather than hacking the device itself, make an artificial OBDII protocol port. No memory clears, and few disconnects.
Besides, unless they happen to have an internal battery, you could always claim that the single disconnected (from hacked personalized port to the proper one before inspection) was due to servicing or anything else that would disconnect the car battery.
Of course, radar detectors are illegal in most areas, so I'm sure these would be. At least it should hopefully bypass anti-circumvention/modification laws since no changes are being done to the logging device itself.
I've been using Progressive as my insurer for over 6 years now. Their rates are a bit high, really, but never quite high enough, by comparison, to make me want to change.
After reading that they are having this "trial", I will not be renewing with them. I just sent them email to let them know, and why.
I'll be switching to some other insurance company. One that doesn't consider its customers' privacy to be available for purchase.
... since you often ending buying more (buy 12, get 12 free!) and then throwing it away because it goes bad or you're just sick of eating it.
someone reverse engineers this thing? Remember the cue-cat?
"Wow, this guy drives one mile less than the speed limit at all times! Discount: Maximum!"
Go to http://insweb.com to see if I'm telling the truth. (btw, I am not affiliated with insweb in anyway, I'm just referring you to it since it was recommended by Consumer Reports two or three years ago)
"I wonder how soon it will be that everyone has one except those resigned to paying extra as with grocery 'convenience' cards."
As long as we're making sweeping generalizations, let's not forget the fact that there will always be stores that don't require the card, just like there will always be websites that don't require you to pay for those e-cards (hallmark.com), even while others do (bluemountain.com). I know Alarmnism is a fact of slashnot life, but there will always be competition that won't require these boxes, simply because they know there is a large consumer base of people like us out there who just don't want to deal with them.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
Note that intrusion into your privacy is already part of insurance that you buy.
You have to put down your gender, age, ZIP code, make and model of the car you drive.
All of those items already go into determining what the insurance company will charge.
Interestingly, though, there's been some reluctance to explicity discriminate on some factors, such as race, because of the backlash that would ensue. I'm not even sure if gender discrimination on insurance rates is permitted everywhere.
Likewise, there was some hesitance about genetic profiling to deeply probe a potential client's propensity to develop disease, although a physical examination is required for a life insurance policy.
But reigning in the level of privacy intrustion is definitely where you need to provide input to your government. They're the ones that often require you to demonstrate you have car insurance before they'll issue you a new registration sticker for your car.
My favorite option, though, is to start using those infernal copyright laws to protect and to limit the distribution of data about me in the same way that those laws protect and limit the distribution of data about Britney Spears voice.
Any insurance company that sells a piece of that information to anyone without my permission should be fined.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. Guess what? The right to drive is granted to you by your state, not the federal government.
So does that mean that we could have a lower rate for those minutes that the car is not actually moving?
ballot initiative in CA?
Invalid point: Most if not all Buy One Get One Free offers ring up as half price at the register, meaning Buy one get one free items at $1 are actually 50 cents each. Try it next time you are at the grocery store. ;-) - don't worry - lot's of people don't know that.
Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
10-15 years ago, the cards were a trial new technology that offered consumers a discount. Now, you can't get a decent price at a grocery store without using a discount card. The "discount price" is actually the market price while the non-discount price is just a tax on people who don't adopt. What happens if this technology is adopted in the same manner? The only way you can get a decent price for auto insurance is by having a tracking device attached to your vehicle!
Something like a trial for this tracking technology may seem benign at first, but the potential consequences could be frightening. The worse case scenario would be that governments decide to make these devices mandatory.
Lately i've been seeing a lot of such offers that say "or buy one at regular price," although admittedly not in grocery stores (I tend not to shop at the ones that require cards).
The problem is that the once these things will be enter into circulation, the goverment will be able to legislatively require their use. Your lawsuit will then fail, as the courts would rule that you have no legitimate expectation of privacy in driving habits. It's very roughly the same doctrine which allows them to check the content of your bags on public transport - once the expectation of privacy disappears (perhaps through actions of the goverment itself), the "right to privacy" doesn't protect you anymore.
As a statistical body, drivers who have had their license for under two years, drivers who have had previous at-fault accidents, drivers who are unmarried, and drivers who are male are more likely to have an at-fault accident. Since they are more likely to be the problem, they pay more.
And yes, it sucks to be in one or more of those categories. Who told you life was going to be fair beforehand?
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
Since when is the velocity of my car, something which is directly observable externally, considered private? In't this a bit like saying to people, "Please don't look at me as I walk by. I don't want you to know where I am or whether I'm running."
Whether you're driving naked, provided it's not visible to other drivers, is your own business. What music you listen to, provided it's not audible from 50 feet away, is private (check your local laws for variations). The speed of your multiple-ton chunk of sharp metal, glass, and flammable liquid is not private.
Whatever Orwellian fantasy you may be indulging in probably falls short of what has already been true for years: "They" have been able to tell exactly where you are and what you are doing for a long time now. Most of us are too boring for it to matter. If you're going to be paranoid, do it properly.
Happiness is relative, Based upon the way we live.
Hitler mandated black boxes in cars.
i have been given a card with absolutly nothing attached to it, by casheirs at albertson on 10 different occasions where i forgot mine, and on even more occasions they use one they have sitting there in front of them already.
this has caused me to stop carrying any because why carry more crap around if I get the discount without one?
When cars drive themselves we will no longer have thousands of teens die driving every year, nor drunk drivers, nor sleeping drivers, nor cell phone yakking drivers. We will have a low accident rate which will be paid for by a flat tax on new cars. Robotic taxis will be availabe cheaply, so most people will not even own cars.
People will commute farther, get to their destination faster, and work less. Truck drivers will be out of work. Road construction and maintenence will boom. Energy consumption and pollution will skyrocket. Mail and other deliveries will be delivered several times per day by robots, allowing the return and success oof a Webvan-like grocer service.
Why fight progress? Track your car now!
Ah the 'forcing' argument. As if the only way to force anyone to do anything is with the threat of physical violence.
The post refers to 'optional' grocery cards which are used to track your buying patterns and for which you receive a slightly reduced grocery line item in your budget. Good example and to the point.
Now, what if everything some corporation or government body wanted you to do that benefited them in some way (by making their work easier or some such) but slightly reduced your personal freedom could be tied somehow to slightly reducing your personal living expenses... turn this around: what you end up with is an economic system that charges you a premium, in actual dollar terms, for maintaining your personal freedoms. And that is exactly where we are headed.
No one is being forced, at gunpoint if you like, to jump in but like a frog that sits in a pan of water slowly brought to a boil, no one is jumping out. We just keep accepting each of these tiny freedom decrements, because each one saves a few bucks, we don't notice it happening because nothing really dramatic happens all at once; oh and right, no one is forcing us.
I had the idea for black boxes in cars about 11 years ago. I made a prototype that had hooks to the light switches, gearbox, steering wheel, accelerator, etc, and a joystick that had a weight on top of the handle for measuring G forces. I think I made it in AMOS - some basic package for the Amiga.
I would have tried to push it through, but what does an 18 year old know about how to get ideas off the ground.
My idea was that emergency vehicles would have it fitted, as well as hire cars (who doesn't cane a hire car when they borrow it). The hire companies then could charge you for every mile that you went at 7000 rpm, or for excessive tyre wear due to people throwing their cars round corners. Also, insurance companies could offer discounts to people that have them fitted, as it would make working out what happened after an accident simple - just unplug the removable hard drive, and play it back at the insurance office.
Get your own free personal location tracker
... a few companies have tried putting similar devices in their company cars. The results have been similar for them all, less accidents, less maintenence cost and less fuel cost.
Don't mind me, I'm just carping the diem...
Back in May, I went to the Dayton OH Hamfest. The have many vendors there besides ham radio related. I stopped at one booth which was a company called Davis Instruments which sells a product called the "Car Chip". I was in an extended discussion with the proprieter.
The salesman mentioned that a lot of companies are requiring the device in company vehicles (I can understand since it is their property) and he even mentioned one company requires it in employee's personal vehicles as well. This is where the extended discussion came about. I asked him who the company was and he mentioned that the name cannot be divulged. The discussion went into privacy concerns such as it is none of your employer's business how you drive outside versus the emplyer's concern about you being an asset to the company.
I looked at the article and it was mentioned there was a bonus for not exceeding 75 mph. I am against the device myself. It is pretty bad that insurance companies can raise your rates without paying a claim such as getting a speeding ticket. I travel between Colorado and Indiana several times a year and when I drive, I end up driving through Kansas at 80 or 85 mph (70 mph SL) and usually drive about 80 mph in IL and IN (65 mph SL). Colorado does not recognize out of state minor violations (not yet!) which includes speeding. State to state reciprocity is another matter and is being pushed hard by the AAMVA with a legal instrument called the Driver's License Compact which is supposed to be replace by the Driver's License Agreement which requires all violations even down to parking tickets be on your driving record and also opens the door to reciprocity to foreign countries starting with Canada and Mexico.
Plenty of data shows that greater highway speeds means more fatalities. Part of the effect of the lowering of national speeds to 55mph (for energy effienciency during the oil crisis) was to lower vehicle fatalities.
I haven't looked at the numbers; it may be that more accidents occur on busy city streets than on highways, but at speeds of 5-25mph, the amount of damage done is much lower (except to the bicyclist or pedestrian!) than in a 60-80mph highway crash. Like the woman who was speeding through the mixing bowl on 95 in northern VA, and drove right off the road. (There were sharp curves due to construction.) She didn't survive.
The reason higher speeds are discouraged by insurance companies is a matter of simple physics--momentum is equal to mass times velocity. Higher velocity means a greater force of impact and therefore more energy to be dissipated in a crash--resulting in the destruction of vehicle(s) and occupant(s). Therefore costing them more money.
It has nothing to do with whether you are a good driver or not.
Perhaps we should raise car insurance rates exponentially as age increases to get the real threat off the road.
According to AAA there is some sort of statistical best age of driving, 35-40 or something, and then drivers get worse as they physically deteriorate. We DO need to change the laws so that seniors cannot float by on their old driver's license, but have to be retested, and, if necessary, lose their license if their eyesight or reflexes are not adequate to operate a vehicle in traffic.
The problem is that oldsters VOTE and young people DO NOT. So while you sit on your hands and privately decry how much "the system" "sucks", AARP members are politically organized and voting themselves into driving forever, while blaming teenagers for all automobile accidents. Guess why the drinking age is 21? Because teenagers are blamed for all drunk-driving accidents. Reeking nonsense, but how much influence do teenagers have on the system?
A minor correction: radar detectors are generally legal throughout the USA. Last time I checked, there were only 4-5 states prohibiting their use. Unless you drive a tractor-trailer; I believe those are prohibited nationwide.
Remember when they banned leaded fuel? Didn't matter that your car was too old..
If you pollute too much in states that inspect.. you also loose...
It was either you conform or you don't get plates..
They can mandate this as well if they want, as they can pass anything they feel like.. 'we' gave them the power..
Only recourse is to get it struck down.. but it CAN ( and i expect WILL ) be mandated with in 10 years.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Let's suppose our theory is correct, and these people are more of a hazard than those that travel with the flow of traffic.
If insurance companies are smart, they will observe this and realize that they can't conceivably start charging a surcharge for slower drivers.
Their only possible response will have to be to quietly discontinue the program.
Let's assume for another moment that the opposite happens, and these drivers actually *are* statistically safer (I don't believe that for a second, BTW).
Clearly, and insurance company would have to be foolish not to offer a discount to these truly safer drivers. The cost of the program is a sunk cost. Once they've implemented it, if even 1% of their customers use the system and they can save money with it, they will continue using it.
So, we can prove our hypothesis by watching and seeing whether this program continues for any length of time.
Who says that speeding would have any fault in the accident? The accident could very well happen no matter what speed you were going.
It's not whether higher speed creates more accidents, it's whether higher speed accidents create higher liabilities for the insurance company. And they do! Higher velocity means higher momentum means higher energy of impact means greater damage to vehicle(s) and occupant(s) and therefore, higher payouts for the insurance company.
Fixed speed limits are a crock anyway, how does it tell the difference between driving on an icy covered road in a blizzard, and a clear day with dry roads and unlimited visibility, with no traffic? Driving 50 in the first case may be suicide, yet it is legal.
No, it is not. It is NOT legal to drive faster than weather conditions warrant--regardless of posted speed limits.
And then, when the insurance companies finally learn how common speeding is, and sees that it's actually no big deal and no indicator of actual risk, and everyone's insurance rates go down while speed limits go up, everyone celebrates Big Brother is Our Brother Day.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
All I know is that a large part of the populous (senior citizens) get in a large number of accidents yet also drive very slowly. If they really wanted to develop a system that would reward safe drivers they would have to find a way of mesuring the driver's reaction times (the most lacking part of an elderly person's driving skills).
A ricent side note: The NTSB approved a reccomendation standardzing the "black boxes" in cars like they have in trains and planes, although it stopped short of requiring them. I had herd this was prompted by an accident in Santa Monica, CA last year, where an elderly man crashed into the farmer's market there. Supposedly, he inadvertently stepped on the gas pedal when he was going for the break.
I wonder how many discounts this gentleman would have been in for had he been using the system mentioned above, (i.e. a system which gives discounts simply for driving at or below the speedlimit).
That's like resting on the point that one cigarette won't harm you, uh-huh but...
Add this small reduction-in-freedom / money-tradeoff to all the other freedom/moneys already in existance and to come, accelerate the process, and it will end up being expensive, and I would suggest prohibitively so, to maintain your average 1950's level of personal freedom. For most people it won't exist any more as a practical attainable state. In other words the average person is slowing becoming less and less free as time goes on. Freedom is being traded for money in this case and in more and more cases all the time.
See it's part of a larger pattern is the idea but: there is no vast conspiracy at work, this is all just the result of known economic, social, technological, and political trends.
"It's the reason we don't have automatic pilot on cars yet..."
What are you talking about? My car has cruise control. Isn't that like automatic pilot? In fact, as I post this, with my cell phone modem, I am driving down the Interstate on cruise control with my laptop in my lap. This technology has existed for...
OH CRAP...
[lost carrier]
Unknown host pong.
The way I drive, I highly doubt I'd be getting a discount.
Now that's an odd choice of moderation for the parent post.
Yeah, yeah, I know, -1 Offtopic...
You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
A welcome improvement - folks who eat poorly, smoke, and don't excercise will get their health insurance rates jacked up.
I'd agree with that far more than the corporate big-brother in my car.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Those who sacrifice a little speed for temporary car insurance, deserve neither car insurance nor speed.
As if that weren't enough, now the electric company is giving discounts to people who use less electricity! What right do they have to inquire into my electrical habits?
Listen up.
I don't smoke, so why should I pay more for health insurance because you do?
I don't eat lots of red meat, saturated or trans fats, and I eat lots of vegetables. Why should I pay more for your McSupersized diet?
I don't eat soda, candy, or sugar. So why should I pay for your rotten teeth and diabetes?
I don't speed, I don't weave in traffic, and I honor traffic signals. I'm not in such a huge hurry to chop ten seconds off my trip everytime I get behind the wheel. So why should I pay for your unsafe driving habits?
Fact is, I'd be happy to install one of these if it saved me money from subsidizing your bad behavior.
The freedom to be let alone is fundamental; so is the freedom to not pay for the behavior of idiots.
Are there any non-profit insurance companies out there? I ask because i find it annoying that we have a tax mandated by the government, yet paid out to private entities.
I do not doubt that insurance companies will try and mandate this as soon as they can convince enough to use it, and it becomes relatively inexpensive to implement en mass.
I would rather spend my money on a non-profit company--i feel they would be less likely they'll ream you trying to make every last buck they can.
Troll, Troll, go away and flame again some other day
i can go faster than the speed of light, just slow light down enough and you can go faster. it is impossible to travel exactly AT the speed of light, but you can go FASTER or VERY CLOSE to it, assuming you had the technology to do so
yap
Thats just gonna get em to increase my insurance even more. Even though i follow the speed limit alot better than i did before the 97mph (in a 65) speeding ticket. Its still gonna get all fubared when I go to the drag strip and run street legal drags.
Trade your grocery card for a friend's. Repeat regularly. Most of the cards I have seen do not have a name or other identification. Average their statistics away by trading your card once in a while.
And I fill out junk info on the grocery cards.
How about sending a modified report and getting your discount anyway?
Take that and stick in the same place as trying to justify how a credit report justifies gouging somebody harder for their driving. Mandatory insurance...what a crock too.
I remember when it was announced that light had been "slowed down" in an ion plasma or something but I figured it was just taking longer to be re-emitted and was travelling at "c" while in the vacuum between the particles. As for going faster, are you presuming an infinite energy supply? Or have I been trolled?
"A witty saying proves nothing." ~Voltaire
"d'Oh!" ~Homer
Or are you really such a vicious, stupid, self-important shit? I see no need to repeat the perfectly logical rebutals other posters have put up; you deserve only abuse.
What sort of weirdo cares that much about data detailing how fast they drive such that they wouldn't want to save 25% on their car insurance!
I think of much more interest was the second one in the article, detailing Norwich Union's plan to track cars via GPS and offer discounts to cars 'that spend more time in safer areas'. That seems like more of an invasion of privacy rather than some random numbers detailing how fast someone is going.
If you're going to strap it on and go for it, get a valentine.
Yes, they're twice as much. But if it saves you one ticket. Poof.
Go for the gold.
Driving fast and smart saves time. I can do that consistently. I haven't gotten a ticket or accident in nearly 30 years of driving, and on an hour commute, I routinely save 10 minutes.
That's 20 minutes a day. Or an hour-20 a week. Or over the course of a year almost 3 days.
When a bunch of us are going someplace and we're late, they always flip me the keys, because I can consistely get you there faster, quicker, and with no drama. No drama. You'd fall asleep.... as the car is going down the road at speeds you're too scared to drive at.
Yet, nobody seems to care. Cops, other drivers...
There's an art to it. A Zen, if you will. I'm not a race car driver, heavens no; I've driven on the track, and I'm a back-marker. That's not my skill. No, the skill is to drive on the public roads very quickly, efficiently, and without drama.
You're mainly pissed off that you don't know how to do it. Next time that minivan goes shooting by you, its probably me. Not that you'd notice. I'm that good at it.
That will leave you thinking. And wondering. When that car/van/SUV goes by you quickly.
no, i dun like to troll, but physics states you cant go at the speed of light but can go faster or slower and light can be slowed down (even stopped, but sorry, dun have a link to the story)
yap
" Countless studies prove you wrong, of course."
Does it hurt to pull this stuff out of your ass? It must, because that's a pretty big whopper to start pulling through the anal passage.
I can tell you pulled it out of your ass... your "proof" stinks like shit.
No offense...
"If this were true then an insurance company wouldn't be offering a discount for the people who don't drive fast."
Wow. Name one that changes rates based on your speed.
(tapping foot, waiting).
Yep thought so. Another guy talking out of his ass.
It's a suppository!
You can't handle the truth.
Wonder what the penalty would be for hacking this system? Can't see it being any more than fraud...and that's if you get caught :- )
I am for anything that makes the highways go faster.
You can't handle the truth.
You have been brainwashed. The lowest common denominator is never the absolute highest value. Or are you trying to say that the highest safe speed in a 200 ft 60-0 Suburban is the same as in a 120 ft 60-0 Porsche ? In case you still do you will notice I already provided the numbers that should change your mind.
Heck, why not double it up and provide a break for those who vote? I know that Australia imposes a fine on those who don't vote. We've all heard the slogan that it's not only your right to vote, but your duty. There's nothing that says you have to vote for anything, just show up to the voting booth and turn in a blank ballot, collect your receipt and move on with life.
There may be some flaws in this idea, but my gut says that it would improve the state of affairs. None of this would bar someone from taking part in the process, but instead would make it slightly more lucrative to take part.
While we're at it... Why not give welfare recipients a couple months to study and pass such a similar test or have their benifits cut? (but not eliminated.)
"My religion is to live --and die-- without regret." -- Milarepa
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
Plenty of data shows that greater highway speeds means more fatalities. Part of the effect of the lowering of national speeds to 55mph (for energy effienciency during the oil crisis) was to lower vehicle fatalities.
1) From what I remember, that was part of the reasoning. It did not achieve that effect, quite the opposite.
2) Autobahn.
This is kind of like the gas prices right ? where the gas stations lower the prices when they can and not when they can't keep them any higher ?
If the Bush government told them to each wear personal tracking collars, they would say 'what color?'
Woof.
in drivers' ed all those years ago (5), they said that the uninsured driver's fee is $500 per year... something tells me that my USAA Insurance that I don't pay for would be cheaper even if I were paying for it (despite the fact i'm still on my parents' so it's 4 people, 3 cars, and a harley 2000 fatboy for i think a tad over $1000)
The More Laws, the less Justice --Marcus Tullius Cicero
Drivers who avoid the most dangerous times -- midnight to 4 a.m. on weekends -- get bigger discounts than those who don't.
Wtf?!
I have worked 2nd shift for the past two years.
2nd shift for me means I don't get off work until midnight. I would penalized, regardless of how well I drive, because of my WORK SCHEDULE?
This is the kind of stuff that turns even the most reasonable poster into a potty-mouthed troll. I shall refrain. I'll also be cancelling my Progressive policy and going with someone else.
One thing I've learned over the years with car insurance is, *never* stop shopping around on it! The average insurance agency fully expects that customers won't stay with them for an average of more than 4 years anyway. They're out to make most of their profits on the people who are too lazy to switch (or falsely believe they're eventually going to save money by sticking with the same company for a long time).
Basically, I wouldn't even consider renewing an existing policy with whoever I used the last time around, without first calling for at least a few new quotes.
Also, it's tough to generalize and say "company X is expensive/a rip-off", because as I've bought and sold different vehicles, my results varied greatly with the same companies.
There are lots of factors in coming up with your rate, and some are totally unrelated to your driving history or type of car you drive. Some agencies take your credit history into account, and others (EG. American Family) don't use it at all.
I just switched *to* Progressive, and I have a very clean driving record. Why? Well, I was real happy with my previous choice, but I'm in the middle of a messy divorce where my (soon to be ex) wife took my sports car and subsequently sold it to somebody. My insurance co. it was insured with refused to let me remove the car from my policy though, because they weren't certain my wife didn't still have it in her possession and wasn't still driving it around! They demanded I fax them proof in the way of a letter from the Dept. of Motor Vehicles stating the car was re-titled to another person. Well, the DMV said "Sorry pal! That's confidential information and we can't give you a letter like that. Yes, your car was sold, but no you can't have any info about it."
It seemed to me the only sensible thing to do was cancel my policy and sign up with someone new. Progressive had a fairly competitive rate for the SUV I drive right now, and if they raise my rate next time around - fine. Away they go too....
for someone who really is a low risk, but up till now couldn't prove it. Drive only under 20 miles per hour? Drive only 20 miles per month? Stuck paying a huge insurance for little to no actual driving per month? This is great for such a person.
Or do you drive like a crazy person seven days a week? Practically LIVE in your car you drive so much? And you want other drivers to average you down? Watch YOUR car insurance rise and YOU demand federal laws so YOU don't pay your actual risk level.
We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good. -Hillary Clinton
Your sig: Is that an actual quote of Hillary Clinton? Can you provide a source? Hopefully, this would settle several long and tiring debates about helmet laws, socialized medicine, the future first female president, and democracy between my wife and I. I apologize to those who find this off-topic, but I find this potential quote to be Stuff that Matters(TM).
I was drunk when I logged on, but I am sobering quickly. :(
Looks good for your age..
I think you misunderstood what I was getting at - rather than tampering with the data held, you create a box that you hook to your OBD port, then the insurance box connects to it via an ODB port you make yourself - all the OBD data then passes through except for speed (and probably RPM to make it look real) which you cap at whatever limit you desire. So to the insurance companies box it seems that you never exceed whatever limit you choose to set.
This would be VERY easy, as the protocol to gather data from ODB ports is wide open. Or if you wanted to get really creative you could simply leave the device off your car and fake a few months of driving data in whatever way you wanted - perhaps as a challenge record your driving habits in Gran Turismo or GTA3 instead.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
In the event of an accident, you take the insurance companies device and toss it into the weeds. And even that's only if you were speeding in a way that disagreed with what you were feeding the device in the first place.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I did mean official racing, like the SCCA or BMWCCA. Those are completey above-board and OK for insurance. In fact I think you could probably argue that people attending these events have a much smaller likleyhood of being in an accident due to far greater driving skills than the average person.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
What is making this possible and cost efficient for companies is advances in technology. Undoubtedly, technology 20 yrs from will allow for even more monitoring of ever more of our daily lives.
What do we do when health insurers offer discounts for allowing them to monitor the food we eat? Do we succumb? What about when they deny coverage to those that eat donuts?
What happens when life insurers deny payment because they saw you light a cigarette, once, 3 years ago?
It seems like a good idea at first, but then you have to reason it out. I have a 1972 Dodge Dart - my first car. It is only equipped with lap belts. It came from the factory that way. I get pulled over at least every tenth time I drive it. They can't pull for just seat belts in my state, so they always come up with some kind of lame excuse for pulling you over, I.E. you were "swerving" from lane to lane, etc. Now, I'm not against the police in any respect, as my dad has been a cop for over 30 years and I have grown up in a cop household and these have been the people I have known since I was a child. But there has to be a point where you have to tell "big brother" to take a hike and let you have some privacy. I like the fact that my father is on my side in this respect. He refuses to pull people over for seat belts and other minor infractions that should be left up to the driver. Hooray for decent police officers who respect people's privacy!
Me fail English? That's unpossible!
...if it's GPS based and just requires batteries or a 12v feed, it'd retrofit to anything. you'd presumably have it installed with a sealed tag to show if you take it out and put it in granny's car whilst you're off street racing, but there'd be no reason it couldn't be fitted to *anything*.
If the thing only records your driving speed, and not your position, and even that not in real-time, than how is it a violation of your privacy, even if they make it mandatory?
Insurance companies wanting to make sure you are not breaking the law in order to insure you!
The unreasonable bastards!
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
It won't take long until you can download the emulator from your favourite p2p net.
Configure your driving habits in a win32 dialog, or use the default settings, then
hit upload. You don't even have to unpack the device your insurance company sent
you, store it away and enjoy the lower rates..
Parking insurance is a low-cost insurance used to 'protect' your investment in a parked automobile from theft, vandalism as well as damage from falling trees, being ran into and such.
...and as far as I understand, the Insurance Industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the United States. For a time, I was a licensed Life Insurance Salesman and there were so many things that I could and could not say or suffer upwards of $10,000 dollars in fines and spend at least a year in prison. Those same types of regulations applied to home, auto and other property insurance.
It is used to cover a vehicle that won't be driven on a regular basis. Some times this type of insurance allows for *very* limited driving, such as weekend use or possibly emergency use and it had better be emergency use. It's sort of like 'recreational autmobile' used on Classic automobiles.
It should cost you significantly less then 35% of the value of your vehicle.
Of course, that might not be available in your state. If you use it, but are out driving on it and get into any sort of trouble, you can be significantly screwed. I would never recomend, suggest or othwerwise consider using such insurance on a vehicle that I drive daily. Depending on where you live, that could possibly land you jail time for Insurance fraud.
If you are educated about insurance, then you really can't be ripped off.
Read up on the Insurance Laws in your state and grill the heck out of your Insurance Agent regarding all of the types of Insurance available. Call around, don't be an uneducated consumer and you won't be taken advantage of. If your state allows 'Parking' or 'Weekend Driver' Insurance and your agent isn't offering that to you, check with different companies until you find one that offers that in your state.
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
Freely giving something to someone else is not a loss of freedom. The insurance is something they give oyu oand you must give something in return; both sides benefit. You are certainly free to not do so. Government mandated "black boxes" in your cars is a loss of freedom. (Which, BTW, the NTSB is trying force on us.) Insurance is a privelege. If you don't want it then don't buy it. (Yes, I know the government requires you to buy it, but that is a case of lost freedom just like forced black boxes.) When you don't buy it then you are no worse off than you were before. So how is trading value for value in a mutually beneficial arrangement a loss of freedom? Unless you have a right to other people's labour and thus can claim a loss of rights when you don't get those products handed out to you, there is no loss on your part.
"The State is that great fiction by which everyone lives at the expense of everyone else." -Frederic Bastiat.
Glad I'm cheaper to insure 'cuz my car's black, tho.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
Amen, brother.
If I knew the wedgies I gave you back in 6th grade would have resulted in this . . . I might have taken a moments pause.
eom
What a business to be in! The gov't requires that we all have insurance to drive, but the insurance companies don't have to insure you unless you meet their demands with little or no government regulation.
Case in point: When I went to renew my insurance last year, all the major insurance companies wanted on avg $800 down and $330 a month because I have bad credit. Mind you, I have a squeeky clean driving record, and am 25 years old. That was almost a 300% increase from my prior policy!
To do this cost thing right, you have to examine risk, because not all dollars are created equally. Same reason I'd bet $1 with 50/50 odds to win $1.10, but I wouldn't risk $50,000 to win $55,000 - playing odds in your favor is worth it if a dollar lost is of the same value as the dollar gained. But when doubling my money isn't as good as getting cleaned out is bad, you don't take the bet.
In other words, I'd have to be rich to self-insure.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
Since I am currently a Progressive customer (until later this month - I switched to Geico!) I used their website's feedback form to address this issue and here is the response I got:
---------
Ms. ********, thank you for your e-mail.
Thank you for contacting Progressive about our new TripSense auto discount
program. We would like to address your concerns about TripSense by providing
some additional information about how the program works.
We recognize some customers may not wish to share data with their insurance
company and that's OK, that's why we offer consumers a choice of TripSense or
our "traditional" auto insurance product. Progressive's TripSense program is
completely voluntary and offers a way to earn discounts that have never been
available before; our customers can decide whether they want to sign up for the
program and if they wish to share their driving data.
Progressive will use vehicle usage data only to provide discounts. Vehicle
usage data will not cause a customer to pay a higher rate or their policy to be
canceled.
The TripSense discount is based on how much, how fast and when the vehicle is
driven. The TripSense discount is heavily weighted on mileage and time of day.
In fact, the speed component makes up only 5 percent of the possible 25 percent
discount.
You can find more information about our TripSense program online at
tripsense.progressive.com.
It is our goal to provide you with prompt, courteous and accurate service.
TripSense demonstrates Progressive's commitment to using technology in
innovative ways to reduce the cost of car insurance, especially the rates
customers pay.
If we may be of further assistance, please respond to this e-mail.
Sincerely,
Dawn Sawyer
Progressive Internet Service Specialist
webmaster@progressive.com
The House Between - Original Sci-Fi Series