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Controversial StarForce Copy Protection Creators Quizzed
Thanks to FiringSquad for its interview with the creators of the StarForce copy protection scheme for PC videogames. The author explains: "In recent months there's been an increasing awareness and alarm over StarForce copy protection. It's actually a driver that installs itself with the [Windows] games that come shipped with it, and originally it didn't uninstall when the game was uninstalled." StarForce's Abbie Sommer argues the advantages of "driver-level copy protection", explaining: "The drivers are what prevents the use of kernel debugger utilities such as SoftICE, Cool Debugger, Soft Snoop etc. Also the drivers prevent emulators from spoofing a drive, and thwart burning tools such as Alcohol 120%." The author concludes by injecting a little personal opinion into the mix, arguing: "PC games will never go away, but if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease."
Thanks for nothing! If I want to use these tools then I shouldn't have to put up with this kind of crap from software companies. It's almost like them installing a virus. They wouldn't like it if I installed software on their machines that denied access to certain things, would they.
It's a Bagel.
I wont buy anygame with this crap. And besides, the crack is already out there somewhere by now.
I hope the big publishers all get run off of the computer game industry, and all the people who like "gaming" instead of computer games go with them.
Then those of us who prefer good games to good graphics will have computer games to ourselves again.
Bring back the games on floppies in little plastic bags!
and you can be sure that I'll start to behave like one.
It's interesting that with all the crap that keeps happening with how our rights are taken away and companies like this are installing things onto our computers to prevent us from using tools that we should be able to use that so many people just take it. Too many people are not passionate enough about things like this that it allows these companies to continue to do these things.
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." [Thomas Jefferson]
The guy is missing something. They're trying so hard to beat softice.. but they forget that pros don't need to use breakpoints, thus they don't need to actually run the app to disassemble it.
http://hte.sf.net would work just peachy.
1)Physical access to a machine, means the person has "root" access or will have it very shortly. Defeating a driver installed with a game shouldn't take too much effort.
2)If a game is truely worth playing, then it is worth paying for. Like today's music, most of today's games aren't worth paying for.
"if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease."
Yeah, I've been hearing that since my Amiga gaming days, back when I had to travel to the capital city just to find a place that sold legitimate game copies, back when piracy was as just a blank floppy away. Look how much the number and quality has shrunk in the gaming market since then...
.... cause we all know how much damage piracy does to the music industry. Ba-zing!
That's right. All your base.
under linux i'm pretty sure the protection doesn't work and i can do pretty much whatever i want with this cd, right ?
:)
anyway, i have a question, isn't that somehow breaking my civil rights that at the moment when i put your cd into a windows machine, it automatically installs some software in there, without my permission ? this seems like a privacy threat, i hope someone sues these dudes for good.
at least user's permission should be asked for before installing anything.
why don't people admit already that there is NO WAY to protect cd-s from being copied ? ps. does this installer also fail if i have set the auto execution of cd-s to false or am holding the shift key down ? , what a great protection
I'd tell you the chances of this story being a dupe, but you wouldn't like it.
I see the piracy of games being the lesser threat to the game industry. Sure, it's an issue, but they should be more afraid of people waking up and realizing that they're getting crapped on by game companies.
People won't be so computer-illiterate in about ten years when computers will be as common as any other appliance, and people know how to maintain their common appliances. (IE: Don't shove a fork in a toaster, proper oven cleaning protocol, etc), and they won't really like bullshit drivers installing themselves without much notice (People don't read EULAs.).
Another though: What if the anti-virus companies decide that this is bullshit and we find that Norton Anti-Virus starts complaining about this crap. The game companies will sure as hell think twice before they restict people's computer useage without telling them.
The Yasashii Syndicate ||
First of all, because I don't trust device manufacturers to write drivers, let alone game coders. How to destabilize your system lesson 1: install this shite.
Secondly, a VMWare instance will cure all this.
And what is StarForce anyway? The publicity from this is going to make its sales tank no matter how good its copy protection is. Hopefully this will teach the lesson better than a few lawsuits over data loss.
and then the legitimate users are at a disadvantage compared to those who got the cracked version. The publishers need to realize that this is a situation that simply must not occur if you don't want to erode the moral highground from under your customers. It is really tough to stay legit when your product experience is ruined by the same people who just got your money.
So, one of us interfering a companies computer-system (by simply being where you should not be, even without you knowing it) is good enough for a jail-sentence of a few years, but software that intentionally interferes with the working of other software on my machine is legal ?
...
Yep, the age of of the company-ruled world is allready upon us
I thought everytime a new device was installed or driver, windows would ask you if you want to have it installed regardless of the fact it is WHQL signed. Please, is there a group policy I can change to not alow ANY drivers be it real or virtual to be installed without my explicit permission?
Life is not for the lazy.
I'm a teaching associate at Harvard, where I teach a course on writing a game engine. We start off with a 3d tetris clone, and work our way up to a racing car game based on a pengiun. Most of our students do reasonably well, although the average student who takes this course is not a good game player.
The article mentions that emulators and debuggers are most likely to be affected by this driver. I suggest that only a handful of users will be affected. Based on my experience with students in my course, I suggest the reasons for this are as follows:
- Gamers have short attention spans: the intellectual capacity required to investigate why a piece of code is failing is more than the intellectual capacity required to move around a map in doom.
- Gamers do not use emulators: they have little reason to emulate an alternative operating system, as all games except for tux racer are played in windows. Why would they use an emulator to run Linux?
I know that a device driver that cripples the PC is unlikely to be positive these parts, but I think the impact on people who play games will be negligible.Brad Wardell (Galactic Civilizations, etc) has some thoughts on piracy and the problems with PC games:
google groups link here
http://www.balorn.net/
?
The stronger you make the copy protection, the more you inconvenience your legitimate users, and the more attractive the "cracked" product becomes. Making the w4rz3d version a more useful product than your original is a bad marketing ploy.
Gee, do you think this attitude might force a lot of people to conclude that PC games are such a pain they might as well buy a console and play there?
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
In my opinion, such things should be categorized as malware, and should only be allowed if adequate warning is given to the user before installation.
Anyway, even when installed as a driver, it can't be fully crack-proof --- the driver can be removed, and the game code can be changed to skip the accesses to the driver. If the game is popular enough, a crack will soon be produced (probably unusable for Internet games though), and even legit users may use them so that they can get rid of the driver that is possibly destabilizing the system.
Those who produce appropriate content do not need copy protection. They know how to inject value add into their presence, making the money invested worthwile.
Copy protection is for the benefit of manufacturers of shrink wrap products. I submit that none of us really want a shrink wrap product. That implies no updates. No moving to new platforms. No Linux version. The use of the word 'franchise'. Very rarely is a sequel even as good as the original. Why would we want companies focused on bringing out tired old versions of the same old shit?
In sum, someone will always produce PC games. The market is huge. Whether it's the current idiots who do is another question.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
For gamers with CD-ROMs that are incompatible with SecuROM (and other copy protection measures), it is currently more convenient to download and crack pirated versions, than to buy a legitimate copy.
This is a dangerous discrepancy, and is running the game industry into the ground.
This is such an apologist piece. From author's viewpoint, this is a done deal, copy protection is a necessity, and he doesn't address the issue of fair use at all. When I buy my videogames, I rarely install them, instead preferring to find a cracked version first, so I don't have to deal with all of the crap, like unwanted driver installations, that I don't know if I'm getting. The guys at Penny Arcade have said the same as well.
I don't play games without purchasing them (though I did as a student, because I was poor then. If I hadn't then, I probably wouldn't have the gaming drive now that causes me to purchase all of the games I do.), and I'm starting to buy less and less PC games because of the crap I have to deal with. Do you hear that, developers? That is the sound of lost sales.
I bought XIII, which had some protection that caused the graphics and performance to slowly degrade if the CD is not in the drive. Normally, I would have kept that game to play again in the future, but instead I found someone who was looking to buy it, and gave it to them instead. One more lost sale.
Could you imagine if a PS2 game you bought installed updated CD/DVD drivers on the memory card, and it caused problems with reading other discs? How about if you couldn't play games on your PS2 just becaused you owned an Action Replay disc? They can be used to play copied games too, you know. This sort of crap is unacceptable, and developers who realize that are in a unique position to capture extra market share. Sure, writing a crappy game won't get you sales, but with two equally good games, there are definitely people who will choose the one that doesn't treat them like a criminal if they know there is a difference.
IE. Battlefield vietnam and all the other ww2 generics out there that ppl buy like condoms at a playboy mansion.
but of course there are other reasons, such as the market is so strong it dosn't matter what the hell they put on the shelves because gamers will buy it anyway.
"PC games will never go away, but if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease."
That's interesting because I've quit buying computer games because of the tactics that "StarForce" type add-ons inflict. So I guess that the number and quality of games will certainly decrease because people won't want to deal with all these burdens you force on people.
It's gotten to the point that I don't play many games on my PC anymore because of these companies. I really have no future need for an x86 system because all I use my computer anymore is for schoolwork, aim, running a few websites, and email. Their's only 1 program stopping me from moving to Linux but it's available for OS X.
Oh, and as for the market shrinking due to increased piracy... that's why I guess the PS and PS2 haven't had much success... oh wait...
(I'm not saying that piracy was the reason of their success, but that it didn't lead to their downfall of being the most popular console).
"Tread softly because you tread on my dreams"
What's stopping someone from booting into safe mode and deleting the driver, or possibly even using Knoppix? If nothing, then this is worthless.
- Sherman
... this is a pretty interesting point. Cedega (formerly WineX) does not have support for most of the new copy protection mechanisms around, and mentions as much in their documentation. This means that you can install and run pirated games in Linux that you wouldn't be able to in Windows.
I mention this not to promote piracy, but because it raises an interesting legal point - Transgaming are technically selling a product that allows you to circumvent copy protection - granted, in a very broad sense. But I wonder how long they'll be allowed to proceed before getting smacked down under the new US laws designed to prevent this sort of thing.
"By Grabthar's Hammer, what a savings."
I seem to recall some software a few years back which came with a dongle, I also seem to recall that someone managed to fake that dongle so you can pirate the software anyway. Take a lesson here people, if you can't stop piracy with hardware you sure as hell can't do it will software, in all reality Paladium(assuming it ever shows up) probably won't stop piracy. This is for a simple reason, for every guy out there trying to come up with ways to prevent piracy there are at least 100 attempting to circumvent it, and these guys are really really good. There's a lesson here, a lesson we should all have learned a long, long, long time ago, because it's been true since the first copy protection ever implemented. ALL COPY PROTECTION DOES IS INCONVENIENCE THE LEGITIMATE USER. Sorry to have shouted that, but I wouldn't want someone to miss that one. No method of copy protection every created has stopped people from pirating software and the only way I can see that changing any time in the forseeable future.
First off, you most can certainly debug driver modules. SoftICE runs Ring 0. Even if their driver runs Ring 0, you can still see it. It's also on your hard disk. Even if it somehow disables the machine if SoftICE is detected, you have the data. It will be disassembled and it will be cracked.
/rant
And this brings up a point about copy protection. It really only fucks with the people who actually buy the CD. I bought The Sims after, admittedly, not paying for it for a while. But I did go out and buy it after about a month, and lo and behold my CD Key was already registered. Ah well, an email took care of that. But, next I buy Neverwinter Nights. Damn CD Protection goes so far as to not work in my DVD drive. This happens with a TON of protected games. Flight Simulator 2002 would continuously corrupt on install, SimCity 4, Baldurs Gates both 1 AND 2... Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the SecuROM/SafeDisc methods do *not* produce valid Redbook CDROM standard CD's. Doesn't happen on non-secured discs like Streets and Trips, Windows XP, etc... Either way, I paid for these games and they don't work. Yet I can steal them and they work, no hassle. Hmm, not too hard of a debate. I actually sometimes will buy the game then download the crack because I'm tired of dealing with shitty copy protection.
Slashdot is proof that Sturgeon's Law applies to mankind.
>"I wouldn't buy it anyway" - doesn't matter, fact is you didn't pay for it but benefited from the labor of the publisher and developer - that's theft.
so... linux is theft!?
>"Games are crap so often I don't want to get ripped off" - try reading reviews and playing demos. Besides, good luck getting a car dealership to refund you your money after you so much as signed the contract, never mind drove the car. Not all that many goods can be used and returned for your money back.
good luck getting a demo for many modern games. good luck getting a review that hasn't been bought, if not with money then "exclusive access" deals. in the UK at least, almost ALL non-perishable goods can be returned. exceptions are things like pierced earings due to hygiene. the rest comes under STATUTORY RIGHTS. a nice but unknown one is anything you buy on the internet can be returned within 30 days ("cooling off period") for ANY REASON WHATSOEVER.
(I'm not saying reasons for piracy are valid/invalid, just that the author is factually wrong)
note: most Doom 3 piracy was fans in non-US wanting ir right away instead of delayed release, just like all the films I've downloaded are ones I've seen in the cinema but the DVD isn't out yet.
"PC games will never go away, but if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease."
:-P
Almost a perfect quote from computer mags 10 years ago, yet World of Warcraft, Neverwinter Nights 2, Half-Life 2, etc are under development. How can that be? Games constantly rise in technical quality and complexity, and it's not uncommon these days to have games in development for 4 years or more. It's BIG business.
In contrast, if predictions like that were true, we'd probably play something like Alien Invaders 2000 by now.
Personally, I think -- yes, piracy is bad if you don't buy the games you actually like. In other cases, I find it to be very useful. That games have demo versions isn't a given, especially not demo versions you can try out before a game hits the store to decide if you should get it. A perfect way to boycott junk game publishers very conveniently without having to go back to stores and returning games.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Having been using computer games since 1982 and continually hearing about how the end of the world is nigh due to software piracy.
It seems to have done alright over the last 24 years.....
All this does is annoy people who`ve spent money on the game and give a challenge to the hackers
And then indie developers who don't care about profit will release games with good, innovative gameplay and gamers will still be happy. Remember, some of the best, most addictive games, are the ones that are small, simple to play but hard to master, and free.
I just got turned on to Soldat thanks to a recent /. article, and have been a huge Subspace player ever since it was owned by VIE. And frankly, I often times find myself getting bored with BF:1942 and its mods and going back to these simple free games.
Remember, this guy has a vested interest in making sure the game companies stick around. They pay his bills. So don't expect him to say anything that might deviate from "the big developers are the only important people in this and we need to protect them at all costs".
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
Nobody wants DRM or Malware type software destroying their freedom to use PC's.
No software company wants to invest 30 million into a (small?) project where sales are predicted by a declining history and diminishing market, or perhaps could disappear given the alarming ability to download gigs of data in a day.
In a perfect world, they would produce X, you want X, you buy X.
In a semi-perfect world. People Copy X, like it, Buy X
In todays world, a bit more perfect: People who copy and don't buy X, wouldn't have bought it anyway. (so does this mean copying impacts software?)
What does happen. People want games, if copying didnt exist, they would buy them, prices would drop. However, peope who say they wouldn't have bought the game anyway, shouldn't have needed to copy it.
OK, that bit over: If you purchase games, do you put up with measures that, in the end, are there for your benefit, as a games consumer (i.e., if they did stop copying)
Perhaps the issue is not so clear cut as music (which has always been way overpriced and overcontrolled)
Computer games used to be 1.99 casettes, 4.99 etc... not they are 49.99 at tops. Considering lower costs of marketting, vast market size, limitless and cheap distribution (electronically) and cheaper CD/DVD case distribution, the companies hsould be able to create games which sell for less, and meets a price that brings more consumers.
Sometimes it is easier to copy a game than physically walk out and buy it. This is the mentality they are dealing with.
At the end of the day - don't steal from people, no matter how rich they are.
#hostfile 0.0.0.0 primidi.com 0.0.0.0 www.primidi.com 0.0.0.0 radio.weblogs.com
troll about copyright laws... There is nothing illegal about having warez. There is nothing illegal about using warez. There is nothing illegal about downloading keygens. There is nothing illegal about distributing keygens. There is nothing illegal about using keygens. There is nothing illegal about distributing valid keys.
The *ONLY* illegal step in the entire process is creating (downloading and/or burning) the copy.
This is on a par with the government wanting to install a GPS in my car, so I can't speed. It's my machine, get the fuck out of the guts of it... If I want to debug my kernel, I sure as shit don't wan't some third party piece of crap stopping me. Fair enough if I had pirated software, it's there even though I own a legal copy. Wankers. That is all.
which games use this?
Holy crap ! This thing actually installs itself as a device driver ? That can't be uninstalled ?!! Er, that's great. Is there a list of games that have been (or are going to be) released with this copy-protection system ? I want to make sure that I never, ever buy them. Dancing monkeys are bad enough, I don't need malware device drivers on top of everything else.
>|<*:=
Yeah I believe you when you say that your little program that runs ALL of the timedeosn't spy on me......NOT! That's the problem with these driver copy protection schemes. In order to work, they have to run at all times....even when your not running the game. That shoul dnot happen. Also, and this may sound out of the orderinary or weird, but if you price your gane reasonably, the pirates won't waste their time. I mean $50??? For a GAME? The same could be saide about playstation games but at least I understand the reson they charge what they do (because they make zip off of the hardware sale..easily solved....charge a reasonable price for the hardware..).
Gorkman
"PC games will never go away, but if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease."
I can see the the logic of this, but couldn't a capitalist argue that Piracy creates a new market force vaguely resembling competition. One could argue if that statement is true, that Piracy actually forces the Games makers not to put out wasteful crap like they all to often do (come on more than 50% are crap with no audience) and force them to make stuff live up to competition. IE, if the game sucks I'd probably pirate it, if its good then I'll drive to Software Etc and pick it up.
Of course one can urge that now the companies have to waste time and money on anti piracy software in the process and that there are games that would appear to have no audience but they create one. (Pokemon, Conker, etc, etc)
I hope the above is coherent, too late in the night to post, I just wanted to see what my thoughts would crop up.
forget it.
This argument is a straw man at best. That disgruntled developer can trash your Windows system just as easily without kernel level code. Most Windows users are using it as an admin, unless they are at work where they are unlikely to be playing games. Even if you are that 1 in a million users who doesn't run with admin privilege then it can still trash all your files anyway. You almost always need to be admin to install these games, and I'm guessing there are few people who will log out, log in as admin, install, log out again, log in again as yourself.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
I like how the guy being interviewed bullshits and says that (many?) all of the games that use starforce havn't been cracked.
Soldiers: Heros of ww2 uses starforce, and looking on various sites, you find iso/cloneCD images of it avaliable to download...
My email addy? should be easy enough.
"copy protection is a necessary part of the publishing process"
Yah, and remember the dark ages, when only the church could copy? Well if corporations get their way, it'll be dark again soon. Thanks Abbie!
"We have to live with it, and I don't think it is going away."
No Abbie, I don't have to live with it because I never buy copy protected software. Period. Sorry, but it's a religious thing with me.
"but let's face it, publishers aren't stupid"
Yes, yes they are, and evil and greedy too. First off, they corrupt copyright so that it no longer does what the founding fathers intended. Then they use it to abuse the market in order to force consumers to pay excessive prices for poor quality games.
In my humble opinion, piracy is a direct and inevitable outcome strictly due to the lack of fairness in the intellectual property issue.
Corporations have perverted the process and most people are simply taking the most economical route to get what they want
From where I sit, all of this is because companies will not produce products as inexpensively as possible. Indeed, these companies would earn more if they simply lowered the price to a point were far more people could easily afford to buy their products. As it is, most software is simply not affordable unless you are fairly affluent. So yes, they, the software publishers, are stupid, and what's worse, they're incompetent and abusive.
Words to men, as air to birds.
PC games will never go away, but if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease.
Hmmm, I think a drop in quality came with the expansion of the market. I also doubt that piracy is very high on the list of things that result in lower quality games.
Brought to you by the "well, duh!" Gang.
if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy ... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease. Without a big market there can be no big budgets. No Doom 4, no Far Cry 2 and no Half-Life 3.
Ironically, auther was not able to come up with even one example wich is not sequel. Indsutry really have problem with creativity, piracy notwithstanding.
(Or perhaps so I can determine whether it's realistic for me not to buy any of them?)
It SHRUNK the Amiga right out of Existance !! I had an Amiga store in town, and it was a cow town back then. Oh, how I long for those cows. Moooo!
Either way, it'll be cracked and available for immediate download faster than they can get it to stores. The only protection worth having is online key checking for online play.
Does everything include nothing?
I'm symphatetic of the headaches piratery gives to games publishers, but pissing on your customers like that is no answer. Like i said earlier in another thread, today is MUCH less of a hassle to play a downloaded game than the same game off the box. Something's seriously fucked there.
PS: StarForce is particularly evil. I can deal with CD keys, and i can even understand (not agree, understand) if you want me to keep a CD on the tray to play a game. But a friggin driver?!?! No thanks.
Pretty boring post because:
1. Net games are the future. Expect subscription models to take over within a decade.
2. DRM and copy protection is not just coming to games, it is coming to your living room, your wallet, your car, your life. The guys in DC have sold your soul, DRM was what you got in exchange.
3. Are'nt we talking about MS operating system here? DRM and copy protection is Redmond's key to future monopolies and revenues. If you use MS OS's you should know better than complain about copy protection, closed source, forced upgrades, proprietary file formats for starters. Do you know how much MS has spent and is spending on "Janus", "WMV", "Trustworthy Computing". You get what you pay for!
Real men don't need signitures!!!
Yeah - I'll correct that.
Safedisk is a PAIN to implement.
It works by changing the geometry of the disc - the tracks are actally spread out more (it makes it look a bit like the gaps between songs on old vinyl disks)
Then it measures the TIME it takes the drive to seek across these areas compared to the time it takes to seek across normal areas.
Their driver is very flaky, due to the large numbers of strange drives it has to cope with. This in turn makes it very difficult to build a drive which co-operates with it reliably.
Most disks produced with safedisk are within the spec - the spec just says that the track density must lie within such and such limits (I'd have to look them up) - they are expected to vary due to quality of disk and so forth. They AREN'T expected to vary on a single disk (much) - but nothing says that they can't. So they are in the CD/DVD spec.
The audio protections usually used fall into two camps. The polite camp simply has an audio session and a data session, and relies upon windows preferring to show the user the data session. These are within the redbook spec, and easy to break.
The slightly dodgier protection issues the same track number to tracks in both sessions, and relies upon data drives mounting the last session first and audio drives mounting the first session first. This DOES break the redbook spec. Quite horribly.
PC games will never go away, but if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease.
Curiously I see the vast majority of games in the market today as being mainly better graphical versions of old games. There is nothing new (or almost nothing). I stopped playing because of this (and I was a buyer, not a pirate).
If his notion of quality means more graphics and no creativity at all, then I really hope they all go bust.
Hopefully some indie games producer or a whole new comercial games industry based on creativity would surface.
Ok, let me dream.
Man at Computer: Hey...what the hell?
Dork Behind Him: What is the matter with you?
Chick: Looks like he ran afoul of Star Force's copyright protection!
Dork: Ha ha!
Chick: *snicker*
Man: Shut the hell up you two!
Dork: OMG YOUR MEGAHURTZ HAS BEEN STOL3D!!
Chick: All your CD-ROM belong to Star Force.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Yup, the big-budget "gaming" publishers do not reward originality. That's why I'd rather see them go away.
... But, while the number of games may decrease, the quality certainly won't. The best games (or music, or movies) will always find a paying audience. The mediocre, well...
Anyway, Blizzard (and others, of course, but they're the ones who got me) have one good answer to the piracy problem: require a registered serial number (not used by anyone else, of course) to play online. I got hooked on an, ahem, "found" copy of Starcraft and after I went through all the solo missions, I went out and bought the game so I could get on Battle.net. And I did the same a few years later with Warcraft 3. Yes, my values are a bit questionable, but here's a case where the, uh, "borrowed" copies netted them two sales.
You know, back in the Starcraft days and with other Blizzard Games, I found Battle.net to be a good copy protection method. Allows you to play single player or LAN, doesn't screw up your system, but to play online you need a legit key that has to be validated by their servers. Same thing as Half-Life. It worked well (as far as I know), and it prompted me to buy the game after I found out how much i liked it. I don't think any real working SC or HL online cracks or keygens actually came out. They will never stop people from duplicating or distributed cracked versions of games, but it's not that hard to keep them from getting full functionality out of it.
Games need copy protection so developers can get paid to write them. I'm no fan of copy protection, but I am a fan of developers earning enough to feed their family while working on the next big release. I hate disc protection as much as the next guy, but if it's really such hard work to put a disc in your CD drive then maybe you need to lose some weight and take some exercise because you are clearly a lazy bastard.
As for a copy protection scheme I would be happy to use...I propose they lock the game to your PGP key and that to play you either require a PGP or GPG key. These are free to obtain and provide excellent security. An independant organisation tracks the keys and your licences. You are entitled to move the game from PC to PC as desired, but it needs your private key to play. A local keysafe utility can remember the key, so you punch it in once at the start of a night, like you do for your email and stuff. The keys can be revoked if they are obviously being shared so lamers can't just buy one copy and hand the key to everyone. This could be made no more onerous than iTunes.
This model would enable online downloading of games too, possibly saving the distribution costs and lowering the cost of the game. Best of all, no more 20 character serial numbers to punch in as you install the game - you simply auhorise it over the internet. Non internet users could authorise via phone/letter if needed.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
Regular user-level applications can only do "obvious" things. They can certainly trash the filesystem, but only when you are running them (Well, malware that are user-level applications but starts itself up automatically in obscure places are almost as bad as kernel-level malware, and should also be regulated...), and since they will easily receive the blame, few dare do that. A kernel-level driver can do much more unobvious things, such as randomly trashing the address space of WINWORD.EXE when it is running, starting from 60 days (the interval can be randomized) after installation of the malware, at the rate of once or twice modifications per day, and it will take longer (depending on the quiescent interval) for people to discover the obscure driver, and by then it is harder to know which software installed that.
1.make the games better so people are more inclined to pay for them
2.stop charging a fortune, the cheaper they are the more likely someone will buy them
3.include better stuff in the box (e.g. a printed manual, mabie a poster of the main character or something)
4.use CD keys for online access to play multiplayer games
5.make valid CD keys a requirement to access extra stuff (like how you need a vaid CD key to get onto the official Neverwinter Nights forums or how you need a valid CD key to install patches for some versions of Borland Delphi)
6.make it easier to get replacement disks if yours are damaged/scratched/unreadable (i.e. send us the broken disks and some small amount to cover postage and we will send you a new copy of the game). Obviously it wouldnt apply for older stuff that they dont have anymore...
7.in addition to a paper manual, how about a PDF manual straight on the CD so that when the paper manual goes missing, you have a replacement.
"The drivers are what prevents the use of kernel debugger utilities such as SoftICE, Cool Debugger, Soft Snoop etc. Also the drivers prevent emulators from spoofing a drive, and thwart burning tools such as Alcohol 120%."
How FUCKING stupid is this response? I can use SoftIce, WindBag, SnoopDoggieDog or whatever the hell else I want to tear the crap our of that driver (and I know very well how to use SoftIce and WindBag).
I bet I can whip together an emultor for Windows in two days that can defeat this.
if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy ... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease. Without a big market there can be no big budgets. No Doom 4, no Far Cry 2 and no Half-Life 3.
Ironically, auther was not able to come up with even one example wich is not sequel. Indsutry really have problem with creativity, piracy notwithstanding.
Well, duh... you won't recongnize any of them games he mentions if they're not sequels and not almost released (insert DNF joke here). Imagine if he'd said,
"Without a big market, there'd be no Binge, Future Sky, or Rungy"
Two notes:
1. Do you know how hard it is to come up with a few random names?
2. Yes, I know someone will post a reply with links to all of these games that already exist. So don't bother.
-- Is "Sig" copyrighted by www.sig.com?
I'm pretty sure the fact that it doesn't uninstall those drivers when you uninstall the game is illegal in the UK, unless they provide a seperate unistall for those drivers and its clearly indicated at install time that you are installing two products.
You'd want a 12 floppy game, so you'd go to your friend's house with 24, because at least one floppy would go bye bye during the trip back home.* I think floppy manufacturers made a fortune just off of game copying.
Modems weren't always an option. CD roms only became commercial with Myst, but the burners cost a fortune back then.
BTW, this is probably off topic, but it is a legitimate reply to a reply. Feel free to mod me down, but isn't this supposed to be a free discussion?
I had a burst of nostalgy a year ago. Got my hands on most of the games I played as a kid. Most of them are crap. Only some are really good. The one letdown, are quests. In retrospect, it was the shiznit. In actuallity, most of them were "click everything you see on screen and collect anything you can pick up. And try "use" on anything you see on screen, and everything you've picked up."
We were kids. It looked better back then. In a few years, we'll get 20 year olds complaining about 3D Holographics (or whatever time will bring), saying "Why, when i was a kid, we had REAL games, not flashy graphics! And we liked it!".
Come to think of it, that's not completely true. Graphics weren't really that important to us back then, i think. I mean, we liked nicer graphics, but they weren't something to talk about. I think the gameplay itself was what we enjoyed.
One thing's certain. We didn't talk of engines, and opengl versus directx's (and yeah, i know there weren't any unified graphic engines back then to talk about. Or am I wrong?). We had
1 - Monochrome
2 - CGA
3 - EGA
4 - VGA
And we liked it!
* not that I ever copied them games. It's, ummm, something my friends did. Yeah, that's right. And I wasn't really friends with them. They were more like, these kids i knew. And I always scolded them! Honest.
-- "I'm not a religious man, but if you're up there, save me Superman..."
I agree that this silly thing of installing drivers is total crap and can easily be overridden. however, people wont buy the games if they get pirated ones (most "general" people still dont know how to use bittorrent) and will definitely hurt the industry a bit. people always like "free stuff", free as in pirated or free as in beer. PS2 and XBOX are very less pirated (Agreed, u can install modchip, but its not an easy thing to do). So there are a lot of good games on them (and highly overpriced) but the developers at present dont have to worry about piracy. too bad if u buy a game without checking it out first and it turns out crap. Best thing here is to use simple copy protection methods so that it dosent trouble legitimate users, something which Apple has done beautifully in itunes.
It's lame and pointless to have to switch physical CDs every time you want to play a different game. I've got a couple huge hard drives and plenty of space, so why shouldn't I be allowed to burn and iso and mount it to play? You know what, I think if the only way I can get a game to play via ISO is to pirate it, then damn, i guess that's what I'm going to have to start doing.
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
I've not stopped because of pirating. I pirated games at the time I bought games in addition. The reason I've stopped buying games is that I won't buy games that are released in boxed edition as windows only. On the other hand, I've stopped pirating games too.
Sorry mac, not gonna pay for that.
I'm probably in a real tiny minority here, but hey, that's my reason. If they want me as their customer, make the games available for the system I use. Then I'll buy them. Not before.
"Rune Kristian Viken" - http://www.nwo.no - arca
couldn't several of these 'copy protection' schemes be considered anti competitive?
i use daemon tools, i have a collection of images mounted, for the most part old resource cds (clipart, images etc.)
several of these copy protection schemes (i'm not sure about this one) appear to insist i not only close daemon tools but *uninstall* it before they will even run, at least that seems to be what is happening, at the point where they still complained about emulation software after closing daemon tools i simply returned them. there was another that didn't work if it detected anything to do with my external cd-rom being plugged in (seemed to hate devices detected as SCSI?) again this was annoying, the game was returned.
maybe they were conflicting with something else as well, who knows but as a legitimate user the copy protection schemes made the games impossible to play without removing other software or hardware from my machine.
all the comments about this inconveniencing legitimate users are correct, i'm sure if i'd just downloaded a copy then i would be fine, my brother is playing the same games a few miles away but hasn't paid a thing for them. these people seem to like throwing their customers away, its just the same for the protection on audio cds.
if microsoft made the next version of office refuse to run if it detected firefox or mozilla on the system you could be sure hell would break out, this isn't that different.
And besides, the crack is already out there somewhere by now.
You're missing how this protection works. It's a set of secret drivers that are added to your system during the install. Even if you use a cracked exe, the drivers are still there, and (by many accounts) still causing system problems. Plus, they're difficult to remove, and even when they're gone Windows can still have issues. Some people need to completely reinstall Windows to get things working again.
I used to have Sim City on the Amiga, it was a great game which had its own form of copy protection. It was a dark red/brown peice of paper with a series of numbers (in black) in a chart. It was designed this way so you couldn't photocopy it and there were too many numbers on the chart to practically write them all down. (Thank god i'm not colour blind)
My friend also had Sim City for the Amiga, but he got a copied/cracked version without the 'code check' process. Now I ended up getting a copy of his game since it didn't mean I had to deal with the annoying hard to read chart just to get into the game I had bought.
Summary: Pirate user no problems, Paying customer annoyed.
I reguraly crack the games I buy simply to save the CDs getting scratched, or even having to bother finding them, when I first heard of this type of copy protection I knew it was a vary bad thing.
It was a Raven Sheild patch that introduced a CD emulation check and stopped the game loading if it found anything.
Now imo that's very bad, software being designed pourposely to not work if other software is present. Imagine if MS added in a 'function' to stop Office working if you installed Mozilla for example, a lot of people would be pissed.
Acidentaly incompatability is one thing, but when it's by design, it is wrong on so man levels.
In the end people will be forced to pirate if they want to play a game regardless of their intentions to buy it or not.
Boy, you haven't been around long, have you? Still in high school, right?
10 years ago, the average computer user understood at least 5 times as much about what was going on in his/her computer as today's user.
If appliances being common led to people understanding them, then every American over 17 would be able would be able to diagnose and fix a fuel-pump airlock in his/her automobile. From observation, however, I'd say that over half of them don't even know how to check the oil level.
Not being able to run softice on the game (i haven't RTFA, but i suppose the driver doesn't prevent softice from running at all), isn't really an inconvenience to legitimate users, i think.
Real annoyances are things like hardware dongles. The ones that took away a LPT or serial port were awful - you've left with a choice of either buying an expansion card (more money just to run this program i payed money for?!) or get the crack.
Programs like Cubase or Logic use USB dongles. Same thing - taking up a USB port is a huge inconvenience when you need them to connect USB intefaced MIDI keyboards. From what I gather, the cracks (which can be downloaded seperatly) are popular with legitimate, paying musicians just because of that.
-- "I'm not a religious man, but if you're up there, save me Superman..."
I'm going to use the term piracy for copyright infringment because it's easier to type and everybody knows what I mean. If you don't like it, or want to educate me on the proper use of the term, you can stop reading now.
Piracy is unstoppable. Everybody with half a brain realizes that. Even exec types realize that, even though they have to maintain the facade that they are winning the war. The only exec who seems honest about it is Steve Jobs.
I was a software pirate before I was 10. I copied hundreds of C64 games. I bought less than 5. Every C64 owner I knew from school was about the same. Most of the games we never even played, we just collected them for the sake of collecting. I had a Playstation with a mod chip. After a while, I got tired of collecting games that I rarely played anyway. IMO, most weren't even worth the media costs of a cdr. Last year I gave the whole collection away to my cousin. I could of course do the same with the PS2 or XBOX now, but I find I've really outgrown games, save for a quick round of tetris on my PC once in a while.
The same with my PC, which is running XP volume license from suprnova + keygen + slipstreamed SP2. As I've said, I don't do games anymore. But I do have the pirated Office, Adobe suite, etc. Not that I really need or use them (I seem to use Wordpad more than Word...), but just because I can. If it ever becomes an issue, I can switch to Linux any time. I have used it extensively, it is often somewhat less convenient than Windows, but there are no killer features that really keep my tied to Windows.
Piracy isn't even a software issue, it is as old as the hills. There were pirates as soon as as recorded media began, as soon as printing began. Heck, probably even earlier, I bet even cavemen copied each others paintings. It's just human nature. If the industries ever find a way to effectively stop piracy (which I doubt), I will respond not as a law-abiding target demographic, but as a true homo-economicus: I will cut down my consumption. At the current prices (media costs + some effort to find warez) I consume a lot (or rather, I collect a lot). If the price increases because of effective copy-prevention measures, I will drastically lower my consumption. Having stacks of games, music, movies, apps if very nice, but I can survive without.
By the measurements of the RIAA and the MPAA and the BSA and maybe some other *A's I must have inflicted at leasts hundreds of thousands of dollars in "economic damage" and should probably be locked away for life. Will I ever regret what I've done? Probably only if I get arrested.
A parting thought. Consumers are far more powerful than multi-billion dollar media corporation. You won't die without recorded entertainment, regardless of what their marketing departments want you to think. The corporations *will* die if you stop consuming. Too bad consumers as a group are too fractured to realize their power. Marketing have people enslaved to meaningless product, brands, sport/music/film "stars", consumption in general so much, it's frightening. Some people really seem to believe they cannot have a meaningful life without 40GB of songs in their pocket. These days when someone says "I can't live without product XXX" I often wonder if they might even believe that literally.
According to the article, i am to take my little suede CD storage folder everywhere i go with my laptop. Yeah, right. "Oh, wait, i might want to play X today, i better take CD X with me...".
That's completely retarded, sorry. And i feel that there must be a better way to protect games and NOT inconvenience users to the point of not wanting to buy a game.
In fact, i know (and own) a perfect example: Quake3. The CD keys to my knowledge have never been cracked, and i never had a problem with mind. In addition:
- the game always worked flawlessly, didn't crash the system, didn't install weirdo drivers [exactly what i need on my already-unstable windows system - loads of proprietary drivers installed], didn't even install any registry entries.
- i migrated the game from system to system without ever having any problems.
- i even - and i don't expect that from all game developers but that one really blew my mind - migrated my copy from the Mac to the PC, with no problems
- best of all, all this time, on all these systems, the game was copy protected by my CD key (which i had long stored on the HD so there was never any reason to get the CD out again.) the protection has never been broken.
THAT is perfection. All other companies protecting their games should take note.
Lovely. I use 52% to keep all of my cdrom images on
HD so I can keep the originals as backups!
(no more trawling through a stack of frisbies, just
mount the one I want off a big hd). Can ClonyXXL or
something else diagnose a CD as being StarForce?
Incidentally, I remember something to the effect that
modifying a system without the user's permission is a
criminal offence in the UK? Anyone know if this is true (fellow brits?).
Since drivers run at Ring 0, the driver could crash the OS kernel. And this could open the door for malicious code that crashes machines with games that have that driver.
We had to crack the copy protection just to keep our hardware from self-destructing, anyone remember the 1541, gronk...gronk...groooonk...as the heads slammed into the track0 stop, did anyone else have a hole cut in the bottom to realign the bitch?
Shit everyone should have their windows game machine ghosted, as many games often don't like each other anyhow.
We appreciated 3.5 inch floppies, you could put tons of warez on a 1581! Now you'd be lucky to save a word doc to a floppy.
Seems like a good first pass at reverse-engineering this driver would be to do the windows equivalent of strace/truss/tusc on it and see how the game communicates with the driver and what the driver says back.
I'm sure it wouldn't be as simple as that, they probably aren't "well-behaved" (which should me no WHQL for them). But if it were that simple, writing your own dummy driver that spoofs the game into thinking everything is hunky-dory would be trivial.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
1 - None
:).
:)
2 - PC Speaker
3 - Soundblaster
4 - Soundblaster Pro
5 - Soundblaster 16
6 - Gravis Ultrasound
7 - Pro Audio Spectrum 16
8 - Roland MPU-401 MIDI interface
9 - Turtle Beach Maui
Sometimes you'd get a real treat -
Pick your IRQs, DMAs.
And so on, and so forth.
As a 6 year-old kid that didn't know english at the time, let alone know what soundcard he had, and WTF IRQ meant, I enjoyed playing "Configure the Soundcard" as much as I did playing the game itself (much like the "Prove you're over 18 before playing Leisure Suit Larry" Minigame [which again, could be circumvented]
The real challenge was, that even after I knew what card I had, and which IRQ and DMA it used, some games refused to work with those settings, but did work with others.
Good times
-- "I'm not a religious man, but if you're up there, save me Superman..."
Being a young cracker, i'm of course not able to crack such complicated protections. Yet one of the first thing you learn while cracking is to look at things from a lot of different points. So what do we have here?
- Good copy protection.
- Game market shrinking.
How could i get a copy and still help the game industry? Easy, go to the shop, open the box, and leave with the CD/DVD...
- You get a copy for free.
- The game industry was paid for it.
Voila! Now if they just could put stickers on the box with the copy protection name so i dont need to go to differents shops that often...
One could argue that the shops keeps generally 4% of the sales to pay the stolen good. But yet other peoples steals, so I pay for them when not stealing, so after a time I've paid for a free product of my choice. Just call that 4% the analogical P2P, and forget about it...
-- Gawaa!
"PC games will never go away, but if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease"
As a video games developer for over 10 years I can categorically say the market has not been shrinking BECAUSE of piracy.
We cannot use the amount of 'pirate'(©Templar Knights) downloads to give any accurate representation as to the loss in sales. Like increasing video and dvd downloads are 'hurting' Hollywood, still they record greater profits and sales each year. Especially when many of the 'pirate' copies are fakes used to prop up download figures and justify tighter controls of software and the internet.
The numbers and quality of games can be closer linked to the astronomical cost of mainstream development.
1. (Law) The act of stealing; specifically, the felonious taking and removing of personal property, with an intent to deprive the rightful owner of the same; larceny.
I would argue that online piracy isn't theft as it isn't permanently depriving the owner of the same. It's duplication.
Worth pointing out (Disclaimer: I work as a game programmer) that it is often PUBLISHERS who add this sort of shit once the game is finished and has left the developers' control.
Game dev and music blog
Of course, the problem is not with the physical CD as such , but the contents :)
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
I'm sick and tired of the continued assault on the public's right to fair use. It started with requiring the CD to play the game, and has progressed into preventing someone who purchased the game from even making a back-up copy of the software they purchased a license for.
What do we do when our CD's are scratched beyond repair, or worse yet, stolen? Go out and pay another $50?
When will our politicians stop looking out for the greedy few over the rights of the masses?
So what if instead of some software one uses a USB based hardwarekey. If I don`t own a valid USB Key the game does not run... IANADeveloper...
So I did RTFA and the starforce guy repeatedly claims that many starforce protected games have not been cracked so far. I suspect he is lying. Does anyone know of any games that are starforce protected?
whether you accept the EULA. if it says you're leasing the media/application/game/music etc not owning it, and you agree to it, then you can't moan about it.
Certainly I won't buy a game that purposedly breaks my computer, disabling some of really useful hardware.
Of course that doesn't mean I won't play that game. I'll just look for a "version" that doesn't do the evil stuff. Will be 90% cheaper too.
Which business buys a GAME CD for all the computers in the office? :)
Persistent rumours in the copy protection industry tells that the technology used in StarForce3 is actually reverse engineered from CD-Cops http://www.linkdata.com/index.htm#cdcops, by StarForce's russian team.
This is supposed to be one of the reasons the pricing of the StarForce3 systems does not reflect the perceived development costs for the technology.
The PC game market is growing, not shrinking. Many companies are losing money, I don't doubt that and I don't question the rest of his assertions, but nevertheless, this doesn't change the fact that the PC market of legitimately purchased PC games is growing, not shrinking.
> PC games will never go away, but if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease.
Now.. if the ease of piracy indeed increased...
When CD-ROMs got practical, publishers thought that that was a form of copy protection in itself, and cd writing technology kinda killed that idea.. but it is still as easy/difficult now as copying a floppy was 2 decades ago.
My attitude is very simple. If some moronic game company is going to install drivers on my PC without even asking, and then try to tell me that I can't use their game on my PC because I have unusual hardware or unusual software running, then they can go fsck themselves. I'm one of the people who do actually buy games, but I'm damned if I'm going to bend over for these morons.
Seriously, almost every game I own I've ended up downloading a CD crack for because either it's far too much of a pain to have to find a particular CD just to play a game that's already on my hard drive, or their appallingly bad 'copy protection' crap doesn't work with my SCSI DVD drive. These people are fscking over their customers who actually pay for the games, and wondering why we stop buying them.
No game should ever, ever, ever install a driver on a PC without asking and without making clear on the box that they will be doing so. Some of us use our PCs for real work as well as games, and the last thing I want is some stupid 'copy protection' driver screwing up my system.
Umm, then how does the GPL work? How can Linus impose a continuing obligation on anyone who re-distributes Linux, or *any* derived work? (Remember, BTW, that the creator of a derived work owns the copyright on it. So if I build some new kernel modules based on Linux, I own the copyright, but Linus can still tell me that I have to GPL them!)
Nope! Linus can only directly "impose a continuing obligation on anyone who re-distributes Linux", not derivative works. He, as the author, has the exclusive right of distribution (or the "right to copy"). Linus can't tell you to GPL your modules, even if you distribute them. What he can, however, is to refuse you the right to distribute his code linked with your code. For example, if your code has a GPL-incompatible license.
In the case that your work is derived from Linux, then distributing it would constitute copyright infringement, unless you comply with the GPL.
Copyright law says, at root, that if I own create/own a work, then nobody else can use it without my permission.
I don't think it does, but IANAL. To my understanding, it's about distribution, not use. Use needs to be covered by other contracts (e.g. the GPL explicitly avoids dealing with use).
I stopped playing commercial games a few years ago. I switched everything to open source. What I think about this kind of copy protection is:
I don't actually care about this specific thing. But, things are still definitely going the wrong way. Computer users are being more and more considered criminals by default. Certain companies know excatcly how to take advantage of this.
By claiming that they will get rid of criminals or terrorists or whatever, they can do whatever they want to, including kill open source projects.
I'm personally against piracy, both because it's illegal, and because it also harms those who don't do illegal copying.
http://www.boycottstarforce.org/
I think its also worth nothing that starforce drivers CAN mess up your system, and can only be safely removed with the starforce removal tool. (which they dont go out the way to advertise).
This program is, essentially, a virus. So why is it ok for corporations to spread virii that stop me legally using my own game, but crackers who create trojans and the like are hunted to the ends of the earth?
Well..I know for a fact a majority (if not all - some of these games are real crap) have been cracked.
So....
What have they actually accomplished? Only the honest people are going to locked out as anyone else can either download or crack the disks.
Personally, my biggest issue at this point is the inability to return a game that sucks.
People don't mind swapping discs in consols because they are designed to only play one game at a time. However, computers with their vast hard drives, are able to store thousands of programs at a time without needing to insert a cd. You don't see Photoshop asking you to put in the install cd. The reason why sights like Gamecopyworld.com are so popular is because people don't want stupid limitations that aren't there for technological reasons, but because the developers deliberatly wanted to be a pain in the ass.
Try going to SCO and buy the Linux from them. Not just their "licence", the whole damn thing they claim to own.
Software is not sold, just licenced to use (remember GPL?) so if copy protection is something author wants to have - it is a _part_ of the software itself. If you go for Open Source only, it's less than likely that any OS sw will use copy protection.
Bitching righteously is the sam thing as srtiking preemptivly.
That would probably be a good thing anyway. I mean, how many fricking games do we need? It's a known fact that playing games decreases the quality of a person's life because the more time the person spends playing games the less time he has spent thinking about truth and reality and we all have to live with the consequences of that.
The way I see it theres only two ways: if they are allowed to install things without telling the user and let these things stop other programs working, and stay after uninstall etc then the user is allowed to try whatever they want to bypass it - i.e if you can do what you want, we can do what we want. But if the law says no you cant use debugging tools to look at copy protection, you cant talk about copy protection and you cant bypass copy protection then it seems fair that the copy protection should at the very least conform to rules too, otherwise its like you're saying a big fuck you to peoples rights in favour of corporations. Either way, what you do in your own home with your own computer (offline) is your business and no-one elses - if you choose to decompile or examine something its your right.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Copy/paste from www.theisonews.com
... Also kind of a cheap trick, it leaves me no doubt the creators themselves were/are hella good crackers.
.exe file - but that would take more work again.
Im by no means a l33t hax0r but I know my way around icing/dumping procedures and messed around with SF3 a bit.
First of all, whenever someone writes SF3 uses physical fingerprints, STOP READING - it DOES NOT, and yes a lot of wannabe experts will say that. If you wanna know how the SF3 discs are produced I can write another post here, but for now I'll tell you about the protection itself;
The Devil (=StarForce3) is INSANELY coded to avoid debugging, and by INSANELY I mean NOTHING COMES CLOSE : you can find over 200 RDTSCs on a SINGLE procedure. WTF is a RDTSC? Its an instruction to read the time stamp on the CPU, that is, they use it to MEASURE the amount of time some routine takes to complete: if you debug+trace the operations, stopping them before they are complete, the reply from the CPU will tell the app they are taking a long time to finish - and you get rebooted while the SF3 creators laugh at you.
The most low-level interrupts cant be traced as well since the SF3 driver replaces them with their own evil, custom, devilish, encrypted drivers - and thats where the problems for LEGIT buyers start, drivers messing around with system resources = always dangerous. Theres even a INT 2E routine used into SF3, thats an undocumented but widely known backdoor to run COMMAND.COM-based programs!!
What happens then is, one would actually need to recreate the drivers removing all those ( hundreds of ) evil anti-debugging checks - that would take a *LOT* of time/work already, considering the drivers are encrypted as and when executing - to ONLY THEN start working on breaking the games' protection itself. And for every new SF3 version/update/whatever ( = another game) , you would have to do everything again. Of course after ending up with a working crack, you can remove the "custom driver" thing and just emulate everything with an
Truth is, it becomes much more of a challenge than a way to play the game for free, since its much (much much) easier - even cheaper considering the hours a cracker would spend starforcing - to simply buy the damn original.
"but if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease."
Is it just me or does this sound like a typical reply from the RIAA. Heaven forbid the market shrinking could be due to an increasing general public not buying games because they're absolutely tired of the cr4p some of these developers get away with *cough* EA Games *cough*. Gone are the days when you only had to worry about possible balance issues in a game. Now straight outta the wrapper some won't install, blow up during initial launch, have massive bugs that should have been caught in testing, etc. - it's a "Ship it now we'll fix it later" mentality that the industry has taken on. But noooooo, let's blame the pirates instead, it's much easier than admitting your own mistakes and failures.
The question really is... How did it exploded and can this feat be duplicated? I can see quite a market for exploding cds in the future!!! :o)
LOL! It's not a virus. You bought it. What you charge people for is irrelevant. You bought a game. If you don't like it, don't play it. No-one's going to pay you anything.
Starforce copy protection limits the functionality of your computer far beyond the scope of preventing the illegal copying of the game.
It blocks legitimate uses - the use of debuggers for other things, and the mounting of virtual CDs - as well as illegitimate uses.
I call this the tuna dragnet effect in which the net is cast solely to catch tuna, but it also regularly catches dolphins and sea turtles as well.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
I can only see this affecting legitimate users... seeing as im anon cowarding this post ill just say it, i noticed at least 2 games on that list of starforce protected things, and i pirated both of 'em -downloaded, mounted, installed, cracked, played, didnt even know starforce existed and i still played it. way to go starforce, the pirates will find a way and you just piss off legitimate consumers.
on the other hand my copy of half life, half life 2, ut2004 and doom3 are all legal, because of online key checking
and i crack all my games, legitimate or not, because its just annoying looking for disks, frankly.
Yeah because since the days of my Sinclair Spectrum when we copied software from audio tape to tape the computer games industry has really shrunk.
FFS, How the hell do these people get away with nodding, looking thoughtful and saying these things in an erudite fashion?
Back in the day, in the UK you sold ONE copy of a game per school, that's it (yeah we were all funding terrorism back then too). Since then no industries have shrunken as a result... not the aerospace industry, not the catering industry and sure as hell not the software industry.
We could get all melodramatic and start considering papers by Gerring on propoganda and the manipulation of the masses... lets just consider one thing.
The cornerstone of all propoganda is a kernel of fear. If X is allowed to continue Y will happen.
If software piracy continues then the quality of computer games will suffer.... I'm 35 and I've been told that exact same line since I was 13. The exact same line. In 22 years I've come to the conclusion it's not true. It's propoganda, it's tapping into an unfounded fear in the audience.
I was told the same about tape recorders and the music industry. I was told the same about video tape and the movie/cinema industry... all in over 2 decades, untrue. Propoganda.
If somebody tells you the sky is falling in, don't just take their word for it, look up yourself at the sky and ask yourself if it looks as if the sky is falling in.
The StarForce games I've looked up in Transgaming's search page don't work for a variety of reasons -- a few of the failures seem to be related to copy protection issues.
That said, I'm glad to see the list that was posted where there are cracks available. Maybe that will 'fix' the problem?
With plain jane Wine, I was able to play American McGee's Alice -- though a crack was necessary to eliminate a message that asked me to "please unload all debuggers". (Alice uses Safedisc and is handled natively with Cedega.)
That said, I mostly play native games under Linux and don't use Wine/Cedega at all. There are plenty of them.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
Does the fact that the driver disallow you the usage of certain type and/or specific software is legal? Or is it just a plain assault of my rights?
ALL COPY PROTECTION DOES IS INCONVENIENCE THE LEGITIMATE USER This is untrue. If you read this article by a developer for Spyro, Year of the dragon, their copy and crack protection schemes were able to prevent a crack from being released for over 2 months after the game came out. Such protection did not inconvinience legitimate users AT ALL. http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20011017/dodd_01 .htm
Just for the record, with "you" I mean "developers in general". This isn't directed at MaestroSartori directly. I'm just tired of developers blaming all evil on their publishers, as if the developers are powerless children forced along a ride they don't want to be on.
I am not an avid gamer but I play once in a while, and probably buy 3-4 games per year. I'd probably buy a couple more if the price was lower - $50+ is too much I think for most games (very few are worth that much money). I don't mind CD-keys, and some copy-protection, but if I cannot make bakup copies of my own cds or make cd images out of them, that will turn me off buying games. And as others have pointed out it should clearly state on the box what protections are in place so I can make an informed decision about whether to buy that game or not. I do download the occasional game, but if it is something I really like and keep playing then I pay for it.
Piracy will always be here. Since software is only a collection of electrical impulses, I can always make a set of impulses which is exactly the same as the original. What we need is to move away from selling the software and toward the service model (perhaps not in is current form, but something like it). This works even for PC games.
Software is free, whether you want it to be or not. Forget the moral bullshit arguments. This is the way it IS. We've got to find some other way of making a living.
-Dave
6th Street Radio @ddombrowsky
"PC games will never go away, but if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease."
Howabout, make good games and people will be less likely to copy them because they will actually want to support good games. I mean, you can't just throw in a few palm trees and call it "Battlefield Vietnam" as opposed to "1942". What next, paint everything beige and call it "Battlefield Desert Storm." Howabout "Battlefield: We'e running out of ideas." There are countless games like this, no new ideas no innovation. Just one recycled idea after another. The differences between Unreal 2K4 and Unreal 2K3 involved just making a bunch of new maps adding more trite phrases like, "Ownage!" Or howabout another Tom Clancy based Spy game. There's only so many ways you can make killing terrorists interesting. Oh, here's one last good idea. Let's take the most successful console FPS since Goldeneye, deley it's PC release for years. And, once everybody is sick of it, try to sell it on PC. My advice to game companies, get a fucking clue, people aren't buying your shit because it is shit. They'd rather play shit for free.
--
Adobe's anti-counterfeiting softw
"PC games will never go away, but if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease."
... It goes something like this ... "If people couldn't setal our stuff, everyone would run out and pay cold hard cash; even if they had to sell their own plasma."
... they just don't have the money.
Hey All,
It seems to me that there is this myth in every market around the world
I pay for everything I use/enjoy. And I don't have a problem w/ ppl trying to secure their assets. I just think it's a bit naive to think that markets will explode in size as a result. Cause, if the youth doesn't have the money
Cheers,
--The Dude
Went off like a very large firecracker. Bits of CD everywhere. You can probably cause it to happen by making cuts from the center of a CD to the outside along the radius. A few of those will weaken it enough (maybe one) to fail in higher speed drives.
..don't panic
"PC games will never go away, but if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease."
Well, guess what. Whenever you add stuff like this to games you make gaming on a PC more and more uncomfortable. One thing is that you need updates, bug fixes and whatnot - sometimes to get the game running in the first place. A lot of the copy protection schemes wronly detects software and basically makes it a hit and miss operation to get things running by making the user uninstall pretty much all software on their computer to get the game running, because some "protection" didn't like some component - even though it may not even be related. Does it sound wacky? Yes it does. But it's never the less what some people have to go through - believe it or not.
Besides that, who wants to actually put a cd/dvd in the machine when you have gigabytes if not terrabytes of storage these days? It's like having to put in a dongle yesteryear. Discs have a greater chance of getting scratches when you handle them, so making an image on your drive and playing off of that save the original in the long run.
Who do these people think they help? What they're really doing is killing the pc game industry. Besides, who says their system will work on the next version of Windows? When you're making a "driver" that's a very real possibility. Then you'll have a game rendered useless. Who benefits from that? Remastered versions aren't likely to be made and generally (generally!!) people don't keep PCs around after upgrading. So you have a non-usable game.
Guess that's why I'd rather keep my collection of consoles around. Each has its own charm. I do wish I could put a gigantic drive in each of them and store all my games on it (and yes, I do know of hdloader for PS2 and Xbox chipping), but at least I know my games will work in the future. Without patching. And I don't have to uninstall software on my computer to get things working. Guess that's why the console market is growing and the PC market is shrinking. Meanwhile crackers get to perform a valuable service to gamers everywhere by providing no-cd fixes for games that shouldn't have had cd checks in the first place. Because let's face it. No matter how good your protection is the crackers are better and WILL defeat it. Then we have a lot of people who are playing cracked games and are happy, while people who have bought the game in a shop are unhappy because they can't get it to work.
I wonder how big a share of the piracy market that's really just legitimate users wanting to get a copy that isn't nearly unusable because of copy protection.
Hey! The PC market is still shrinking! Quick! It must be rampant piracy. Quick. Invent more copy protection schemes that will stop the piracy!
Man. This post should really get a +5 sad.
I find that after I downloaded Anarchy Online I'm seriously enjoying the fact that I don't have to plop a CD in to the tray or leave it there indefinatly to sate my need to play the game. I do like just clicking the icon and going. The company offers the game directly from their site and it's subscription based, but it's well worth the money to me atleast and the convience of not having a blasted CD check makes it that much more enjoyable. This can definatly influence my future purchasing decisions.
The only downside to this was I did a 1.4 gig download. They do offer a CD set to buy. Dont' know if it's copy protected, cause I opted for download instead.
That number made me think back to when I did a 1.4 meg download for the old 3.5" disks, which made me think back to when I had a 300bps modem and downloaded a 45k game in 45 minutes. Oooh the memories.
~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
Don't buy them, and email the publisher telling them what you DID buy - and explain why.
:(
If enough people do that, then it'll go away. Failing that, give this a little while and it'll be cracked like all the rest. I hate and loathe having to keep CD's handy to play games, it's a pain in the butt when you want to do 15 minutes of fragging - it takes longer than that for me to find the cds!
Savvy publishers are aware some level of piracy helps, and doesn't hurt, overall sales. I rarely buy a game without trying the thing first, and I don't buy a game for the most part that a lot of my friends haven't tried either. I got burned way to many times, most recently on the steaming pile that is EA's attempt at a F1 simulator.
..don't panic
Yep, at least two titles have not yet been fully and completely cracked;
Toca Race Driver 2
Soldiers: Heroes of World War II
Both with StarForce, Both from Codemasters. They are probably the only two games using all features of Starforce, apparently making them pain to crack.
I really considered buying Soldiers, but after hearing that there may or may not be incompatibilities with CDRW/DVDRW drives reading the original disc (playing the game), I decided against it, as I only have Plextor 708A DVDRW drive and older Plextor 1210S CDRW drive. No 'reader only' drive at all. Until I hear that the paid original game absolutely positivitely works on my drives, I'm not interested. Plenty of other (fully paid, original) games to play that do not use such invasive protections.
I do give StarForce devs props - it's been a while since the last game before these two that has survived over a week uncracked.
Overall PC gaming will go more towards online-authenticated accounts/CD-Keys - like with MMORPGs and online shooters. In the perfect world anyone would be free to spread the game content around, but to actually play the game, you would have to have online account to authenticate, and only way to open one is via CD key off original box (or CD key purchased online from the developer/distributor). Sadly this doesn't work as long as offline play has to be possible. Internet is popping up everywhere, so I expect this to slowly change. In 5-10 years any PC without active internet connection is probably considered such a lame duck that they don't matter anymore.
if the driver installs when you install the game, couldn't people just copy it before they uhhh install the game and concequently the malicious driver?
Yeah, especially expensive games. Why not do like other industries do and look for ways to reduce the price of the games you sell? You know, you can only buy so many games for 40 euros before you run out of money...
The entertainment industry is the only one I know that seems to think that if they don't sell, it's their customers fault. And they even get laws to backup that!
Diego Rey Mendez
diegoT
http://stardock.com/
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
I noticed on that list that there are several demos. It is completely unacceptable that a demo could install this dubious software, when it's distribution does not constitute piracy in anyone's terms. I hope these games give users a warning about what they are going to install.
Prosperity is only an instrument to be used, not a deity to be worshipped. Calvin Coolidge
* copying is theft
* because of copying nobody makes good games
* they are loosing money (you can't loose something you haven't had)
Abbie Sommer: "we have protected many titles this year alone that are still not cracked. "
Probably because they are crap *g*
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
This kind of crap is why I stopped buying PC games and switched to a console.
No, you get a radar detector. Know how to properly use one (its not an end-all tool) and speed limits will never bother you again.
How did that work out for Doom 3?
Already installed. What's next? Booting directly from the game CD into a custom anti-piracy OS and disabling any access to Windows?
Actually, not the first time it's happened either. Some game I bought in the last few months, don't remember which one, has some elaborate copy-protection scheme that seems to think I'm running CD emulation software. I'm not, but couldn't play my brand new game without googling for a crack first. That's not right, I shouldn't be forced to resort to such things.
It's not "back to the future", it's "forward to the past".
Back in the early '80s I bought a game for the Apple ][ called "Wizardry". This game had an extremely delicate copy protection mechanism that depended on matching the speed of the disk to a timer. I used to play it on three or four different Apples at different times, and there were slight variations in the speed of the disks. After a while, I could no longer play the game except on one particular machine... the drive speed on that machine had apparently been changing slightly over time and the copy protection had adapted the floppy to it.
Eventually I went to one of the local pirates and did something I'd never done before... begged a cracked game off him. I actually had him copy a cracked version of Wizardry on top of my original diskette. It was the only way I could depend on being able to run it.
Seriously, in the not-too-distant future, I imagine the first thing I do after I buy a new game is to go download the pirated version.
"You're safe and sound now, back in good old 1982."
Its lose not loose.
..just check your windows\system32\drivers for secdrv.sys, set to auto-load and -execute on bootup.
Does any one know if the new SecuROM also uses kernelmode drivers?
Capitalization is the difference between "Helping your uncle jack off a horse" and "Helping your uncle Jack off a horse"
This could be made no more onerous than iTunes.
I certainly hope it can be made less onerous than iTunes. Apple's had plenty of flak about that.
It stays installed after the game itself is uninstalled most of the time. Publishers have to pay extra to have it set to uninstall itself when the game is too, so they usually don't.
Games need copy protection to prevent piracy? Fine - but don't stop me from running legitimate software, or try to spy on me.
It's worrying that it's now probably safer for system stability to warez a game than to install a legitimate copy.
Linux Wireless Hardware in the UK
The message boards were filled with people complaining that Doom wouldnt load, or it always hung, some people were seeing video problems. The solution? Download the cracked version that removes the copy protection that was ruining peoples configurations. Many of these people claimed to not have Nero, Alcohol, or any other sort of burning utilities installed. Not only does this force people to run unsupported pirated copies, it also pisses off your fans. Carmack should be personally ashamed that his publishers put any sort of protection on his games. There are Doom fans all over the world who wont buy any future id projects. Hows that for future business? Bleagh.
piracy... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease.
wrong. the number of boring games bought to life just to make a quick buck will decrease.
the ability to create quality games is not something that requires large amounts of capital, look at id.
the only way to stop piracy is divine intervention from God... btw God has an easynews account
The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
"PERMITTED USES
1. If the Software is configured for loading on a hard drive, you may
install and use the Software on a single
computer.
2. You may make and maintain one copy of the Software for backup and
archival purposes, provided that the
original and copy of the Software are kept in your possession.
3. You may permanently transfer all your rights under this EULA, provided
you retain no copies, you transfer
all of the Software (including all component parts, the media and printed
materials and any upgrades) and the
recipient reads and accepts this EULA."
#2 maybe difficult
That was just unacceptable, so I did the only thing I could do to play the game I purchased: pirate it.
3.include better stuff in the box (e.g. a printed manual, mabie a poster of the main character or something)
How about just a freaking better box! I don't know about the rest of you but the ergonomic nightmare boxes are these days is a pet peeve of mine, and seriously contributes to the annoyance of retrieving the CD to play the game.
Game boxes used to be 2 simple pieces, a bottom and a top that slides right over it. Take off the top and you have access to everything inside, and can trivially put it all back. Try that with the box of any current game.
-Mark
Try that in 10 years, or when Blizzard has passed through 5 different companies (it could happen). Or, if you want the fun and excitement now, try to get a replacement copy of Pirates! or, if you lost the code wheel, Starflight. It won't happen, even if you paid for the copy legit.
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
Having a high quantity of low quality games does more to shrink their market than piracy. Perhaps having 25 brands of ketchup does something to improve my eating habits, but it doesn't. When it boils down to it, I buy one or two brands all the time and no amount of shoplifting changes the fact that my hamburger tastes the same with Heinz or any other brand. I avoid the no-name brand though since its not as good, but for some people its good enough.
My problem with current game design "logic" is that just because your cookie cutter is really fancy and makes things look nice, that doesn't mean you can get away with using it without adding significant quality to a game. Incremental changes in game design probably will keep fans of a game buying add-ons for years (Re: The Sims), but it certainly isn't getting someone to jump up and buy the whole series if the original idea didn't grab them in the first place.
Perhaps what we need is a FPS/RTS/Sim with MMORPG elements. Wait a minute, I know what we'll call it: Life.
In years past, this was an outstanding way to kombat piracy. And then Copy II+ and Locksmith came along, with nybble copy schemes and stream editing.
The deal is now the internet connects thousands of people. Before, you had to kombat a few BBS. And people had to call in to those BBS, from across the country and world, to get the stuff they wanted. And that was back when you might pull down a floppy disk (1.4meg) every 15 minutes.
This strategy (using drivers in windows to thwart piracy) used to work because people couldn't talk to each other. Terrorism used to be a lost cause, because people COULDN'T talk to one another. You used to be able to beat your prisoners, properly, and sic the dogs on them because you knew it wouldn't get out except through underground channels. The world was a big place, and carrier pigeon was super-fast compared to other communication methods.
It works different today. Today, people can send disk images to each other as easily as picking up a phone. You aren't not going to "win" using this strategy.
However, what you are going to do is teach people. People are getting SMART, specifically due to stuff like this. You are giving them the motivation to go out and hunt down those cracks. And to pay attention in their Visual C++ classes, so they can LEARN to crack this stuff. I guarantee you that this one single "new" protection scheme will motivate thousands of CompSci 19 and 20 year olds to pay attention in class, and conspire with one another to UTTERLY FUCKING DESTROY THIS MICKEY MOUSE SHIT.
And then a 13 year old tells another 13 year old who posts it in the IRC/MSN chatroom, and the cycle continues.
Thank you for instructing my children. I would pay you if I knew where to send the money.
Legitimate users will have to live with this crap on their disk but crackers will circumvent it and it won't exist on cracked versions. It won't change a darned thing as most users don't know anything about copying a game with even simpler non intrusive countermeasures. Pirates download cracked iso images online and this stuff will get cracked reguardless of the countermeasures.
As a legitimate PC gamer this infuriates me. I guess I'll steer clear of games using this where possible or maybe just get a console and be done with gaming on my PC. It's just blowing smoke to say that PC games will diminish due to piracy. The games industry conveniently assumes that every pirated copy is a lost sale which is totally bogus.
I don't really play Windows games.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
the point is, if the EULA says "by installing this you agree to us installing crud all over your system" and you tick the "yes, i agree" box and click OK, then you kind of forfeit the right to bitch about how some game installed crud all over your system without you agreeing to it.
see my point?
whilst only installing open source code is all very nice, i guess it kind of sucks if you want to play any decent 3d games, doesn't it?
if the aim is to stop the shrinking of the market... and the market is 60%+ made of programers... how exactly instaling a driver that keeps them from running debuggers on they very own machine will make they more likely to buy the crap game?
When windows 2000 came out I was like "thank god, now it's multi user". So I went to install everything as guest, so as to not hose the main machine. Needless to say it didn't work, as most things wouldn't install as guest, assuming that you'd install them as root.
When something is being installed little popup boxes should come up like "This application is trying to install something into the kernel, this is needed when installing hardware, as it needs to install a driver for the hardware, but if you are installing something other then the CD that came with a piece of hardware, then whatever this is that your installing has easy access to screwing up your machine.
Would you like to install it? "
The same goes for write acccess to all the differnt areas that they could be playing with libraries or whatever. Areas including who gets to write to the network! (say goodbye to addware).
Of course, this only works to notifiy people what they bought after they bought it. How do we people from buying stuff they refuse to use? Well if the copy protections working, these things should allow returns.
How large a percentage of the population used computers back then?
Don't buy it. These people seem resigned to a shrinking market, so let them have it.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Beat you by 2 decades. :)
Actually posting this to add a note about my "forward to the past" message (below). I later ran into one of the authors of Wizardry online and told him the story. He thought it was pretty funny.
Not true that requiring a reboot means the installer is doing something dodgy - at least, not true when you're upgrading already installed software.
Windows (EXPLORER.EXE) regularly holds application program files open for no reason at all (I suspect it's something to do with displaying icons), so a reboot is the only way to replace an out-of-date file.
I legitimately purchase my games. I use Daemon Tools and Alcohol 120% on them, and it's faster than swapping, faster than the CD drive speed, and I don't have to worry about scratching my CDs. When something prohibits me from doing it, it pisses me off since it's punishing ME in addition to the warez pups. However, without these measures, games would likely be pirated more, forcing 1) Less good games to be released and/or 2) More expensive games.
Yes, I wish there was a magical way to reward buyers of games and punish warez d00ds, but for now, I'd rather have these measures than +$10 for less selection or less quality games.
I am no security expert, but would something like WinXP registration work? After it was registered, the starforce crap would be taken off.
"PC games will never go away, but if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease."
I disagree, or at the very least, it isn't as clear cut as that.
The abundance of poor quality games increases piracy, because people don't trust it will be worth the money. But, high quality games cause people to want it now and they just can't wait for a pirated version to come out, in addition to those who wish to compensate creators for good work (yes, those people do exist).
I'm sure that despite the amount of pirated copies of Doom3 that will exist, the creators of Doom3 will still be appropriately compensated for their efforts in producing a high quality game.
OK, but what about the minimum system requirements stated on the box: besides the usual they'll have to add "Your system CAN NOT have Alcohol, Nero etc." Do they mention this on the box of starforced games?
That's not really the point. As the GP said, the "average" user knew more back then. In my experience that has been the case... Our first family computer was an Epson 286. Both my parents were able to do a number of technical tasks involved with DOS and archaic programs like Wordstar (a word processor I still have nightmares about. heh). Now, with so many tasks being made transparent or terribly easy for the user, even my parents, two average users who could actually make their way around in a command-line, can no longer do basic things like navigate directories in a DOS box (something they had to do 15 years ago).
It's not that people became dumb or that computers became more difficult to use in a higher technical sense... it's that they've become easier to use for the masses. Like the GP said, computers require less technical savvy today, and considering that things are getting easier to do (in some respects), I'm not sure the trend of the average user getting 'dumber' is going to reverse anytime soon.
LegendMUD
Not playing games is a sign of being an adult? I guess that's going to be some crushing news to my grandparents who still play bridge and scrabble on a near-daily basis.
Seriously, I can't stand self-righteous pricks who equate game-playing with immaturity. If you want to take life so seriously as to not allow yourself a bit of liesure time, go right ahead, but don't make the foolish mistake of taking a holier-than-thou attitude simply because you have some sort of bullshit hangup derived from Corithians 13:11 or some misguided belief that creative and imaginitve play is not as important for an adult as it is for a child.
Ryosen
One man's "Troll, +1" is another man's "Insightful, +1".
what will it do against:
dd if=/dev/cdrom of=game.iso
?
Very good post, we should change the laws, what is wrong with people they dont see to realize this.
3dinfo@maficstudios.com
Hi, I'm the author. Please calm yourself and read this post with a clear mind.
First, to clear up some confusion regarding the interview:
I simply provided StarForce with an opportunity to voice their own opinions. I don't take their side, I do ask them tougher questions about how legitimate PC gamers feel it's unfair to not only to have to pay for the copy protection indirectly by purchasing the game, but to put up with the hassles. They gave their answers, that's all.
Then I look at this thread and I realize to my disappointment that most of you just don't you get it. It's all the same panicked, self-entitled, I'm-my-own-little-god-don't-step-in-my-universe whining. God forbid a publisher protect his investment on your PC. How dare he?
I'm sure most of you are conveniently forgetting the number of times you've pirated games - whether it's downloading warez, copying from a friend or copying FOR a friend.
Any arguments I've seen "for" the right to crack/warez games fall apart. Simple fact: you benefited from the hard work of the developer and publisher without due compensation. Price too high? Game sucked? Misleading system requirements? Too bad: caveat emptor.
How hypocritical Slashdotters are. When stories are posted of stupid lawsuits because someone was careless in purchasing or using a product and did themselves/their family harm, you jump all over them. High and mighty. Superior, intelligent, all-knowing.
Where are those attitudes when it comes to bragging to your friends about how you pirated a game because it was too expensive for what you'd get, or because it was buggy and you don't "feel" like paying for it. Then you complain when copy protection gets more intrusive and controlling. You made your bed, you sleep in it.
Fact is, we have this copy protection because we don't stop ourselves from pirating. Pure and simple. The culture of the PC gamer is disgustingly self-indulgent. Worse, it's spreading to console games.
Piracy has been accepted on the PC much longer because it's been around much longer. The first games weren't even commercial, they were sent across networks and transferred with disks. This acceptance of piracy has persisted through the years, every new gamer learning from the ones before him. "Oh everyone else does it." Well it's WRONG.
It's not like publishers are making billions off you by overcharing - and if they were, you could simply say "no, I'm not going to buy this." Yes, you want it, but that doesn't mean you deserve it for free.
I've gotten some of the most ridiculous pro-piracy arguments ever in email over the last day.
"Sometimes cracking copy protection is the only way to get it to run on Windows emulators on Linux"... er... just where did the publisher state that they support Linux? And how does this give you the right to steal their game?
"Game companies run out of CDs, so if you break/lose yours, you can't get new ones. Plus, you have to pay for shipping!" Right, and if I lose my car or smash it around the tree, the car manufacturer owes me one for free. No, I get it through insurance, which usually costs me more over the lifetime of the car than the car did itself.
"Game companies *GO OUT OF BUSINESS* sometimes. Try getting your original System Shock 2 CD's replaced." Right, this sucks. Part of the reason game companies go out of business is piracy. But moreover, I still fail to see how this entitles you to a new copy of System Shock 2 if YOU lost or broke your own. It's your property, be responsible for it. Your kid lost it or dog chewed it? I can't quite understand how this is the publisher's fault.
"When games get really old, usually one is forced to turn to emulation. However, *COPY PROTECTION MAKES EMULATION DIFFICULT*. This can lead to games being lost forever; this is happening to arcade machine games already." This is called obsolescence. Things become so old it's not worth supporting them. You don't see IBM supporting
I'm a little segfault, short and stout.
I don't know about anyone else but unless I can try a feature full demo or the actual real full game I will very rarely buy it. If I d/l the full thing and can't get it to run then I won't bother to go buy the real thing. I'll just delete it and move on.
If the demo is a really good demo then that will give me the info I need to decide whether I want to buy it or not, but demo's rarely are based on the full version and usually run slower or are buggy or only let you play for a little bit.
I'd be curious to see what titles are using this thing. Want to place bets that there aren't any A list titles?
So, you can d/l a crack, and no more dongles, cds, or on-line registrations for you.
Obivously, as long as these copy prevention schemes exist, these cracks will be available.
But if cracks are available, people will still pirate games instead of paying.
And if piracy exists, you can always blame your last game's failure on it (instead of admitting it was shit). And to protect your declining sales, you add more copy prevention schemes.
-- "I'm not a religious man, but if you're up there, save me Superman..."
Ok so one thing stuck out at me the second I read it.
""Games are crap so often I don't want to get ripped off" - try reading reviews and playing demos. Besides, good luck getting a car dealership to refund you your money after you so much as signed the contract, never mind drove the car. Not all that many goods can be used and returned for your money back."
Actually I do believe Saturn, at least here in Canada, offers a no questions asked 30 day period where you can return the car. I remember a commercial where a lady had lost her job and could no longer afford the car so she returned it to the dealership, but in the end wound up buying a Saturn again because of their great customer service.
Anyways, that's beside the point. Frankly, reviews and demos aren't always the best indicator of how "buy-worthy" a game is. There's several factors you cannot determine from a demo. You cannot tell the length of the game for example, or if it would have any replay value whatsoever. You also can't really tell, through a short demo, whether the game is overly repetitive for the entire length of the game or not. Reviews also are not a great indicator. There have been games entirely trashed by the industry for having less than stellar graphics and poor sound, but even though the gameplay was absolutely stellar, it still got a crappy review. It's very hard to find a review(er) that will exactly match your personal tastes.
I'm not condoning piracy, or stealing money from the developers, but frankly, the prices of games are too ridiculously high for a casual gamer, which is a vast majority of the market. Maybe publishers need to take a back seat to the developers and let the developers actually have a good chunk of the profit earned from game sales. After all, it is their work, and maybe if the publishers weren't so damn greedy, they'd earn a bit more money from it.
I have about 20 games that I'm always swapping between and playing (don't ask), stuff like C&C Red Alert 2, C&C Generals, Max Payne2, Doom3, etc.. and I use Alcohol 120% to handle it all. And to this day I have never had a CD complain about Alcohol 120% being installed. I know some others haven't been as lucky. I have not played any games with this new StarForce protection (I was considering buying Prince of Persia, but forget it now) so I don't know what it will do exactly in regards to Alcohol 120% -- but if it does cause problems, you can be sure the usual channels (gamecopyworld.com, etc.) will be right there with no CD patches, and people will use them, even on their legit copies. Because game companies don't get it.
I won't even get into how SafeDisc/etc. slows down game performance, that's semi common knowledge by now.
Not All Who Wander Are Lost
Piracy is getting increasingly easy? Wow! That's news to me! I guess I should look into it...
-Rich
You're supposed to clean an oven? Hmmm, now I'm afraid to see what's in there...
Power off before disconnecting connecting connector. Seen on a cash register
Beyond Divinity Desert Rats vs. Afrika Corps XIII Dead to Rights Prince of Persia Sands of Time These were all games I might have bought out of the bargain bin at some point, but I won't touch them now. One piece of software has no right to prevent other software with legitimate uses from operating correctly on my computer. I don't even use Alcohol 120%, but when I had a notebook, I did use virtual CD software so I didn't have to carry a bunch of game CDs around with me wherever I went.
Aside from unwanted crap on the system...
Even the market did dwindle to now good games for the PC it wouldn't last long... someone somewhere would say to themselves why don't I cash in and make a good game since there are not competitors... in fact that might be good thing for small game studios with the big guys not seeing it the worth the trouble....
has been cracked. Protection: SF3+pcodes
"Don't waste your time or time will waste you" -MUSE
> First off, they corrupt copyright so that it no longer does what the founding fathers intended.
Sorry to bust your US-centric bubble but copyright laws had been enacted before your founding fathers were born.
I do agree with your other points though.
In the world of online games and web registration, this is a company that sees itself going out of business soon, unless they come up with something that causes a stir and keeps the masses talking for atleast sometime. Whether it works or not is a whole other matter. IMHO
Checked the list and noticed that two demos have this. Who in their right fucking mind would put any kind of copy protection on a demo? I thought the whole point of a demo was to get wide distribution and a positive impression of your product. This guarantees you will get neither.
It also makes me wonder if there is more to this than just copy protection. I can think of lots of things a TSR included in a demo might do, and copy protection isn't any of them.
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
I wonder how long it will be before you have to buy a little box that plugs into a USB port as has, say, sixteen little sockets in it, where you can plug in a little card for each copy-protected game you have. I can't decide whether that would be a very good idea or a very bad idea.
I have been thinking about this for a while and I want to pose the question. How hard would it be to create a hardware based emulator of a cd device? Maybe create some software for a handheld with lots of memory to store an iso and an usb or firewire hookup. When the software is run, rather than do its usual sync it would pretend it was an atapi cd-rom. All you would need is enough memory, the right software, and a handheld that would allow you to directly interface with the usb or firewire port. This would overcome virtually all attempts to restrict access except refusing to use USB or firewire drives but that would cripple too many users. Think about it, any settings or effects it looked for could be emulated and the pseudo drivers could be made to pretend it was any number of existing devices that use the standard atapi specs. Since this is a whole separate device how would it be able to tell?
I'm a DoD Contractor, and every machine on this reserve base has a cd burner and Nero. We are also running SMS to ensure that ther are no gmaes on the PCs, not even solitaire or Minesweeper.
Nero has legitimate Realworld uses, it is a shame that the entertainment industry is so greedy that they are blind to any use but "piracy".
"but if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease."
OH Is THAT why the PC games market is shrinking? It's because of piracy? Then how did the PC market ever GROW and reach its peak in the first place? Was piracy non-existent then?
GEEZ! Piracy hasn't changed. The markets change. Consumers are playing console games now. It's a cycle. You can't blame shrinking markets on piracy.
I will not buy ANY game that has this piracy.
This is a perfect example of how retarded corporations think: They penalize PAYING CUSTOMERS! And then they wonder why those customers don't come back and buy more of their product. Music labels are doing the same thing. They are penalizing legitimate paying customers in the name of stopping those people who wouldn't pay for their product. It's so bass-ackwards!
Thank You for that list.
What I found amusing is that the first game on the list, Breed, is sitting in my Big-Stack-O-Pirated-Games that I have in a spindle next to my PC.
Whats worse (for them, I guess) is that I have copies of about a quarter of those games listed.
So not only is this 'protection' scheme not working, it seems like with this bad press that the entire thing is going to backfire.
When someone builds a better mousetrap, the mice get smarter!
This is the same stupid crap I have been hearing since I first bought Ultima II for the Atari 800.
Why not encode the name of the user into the game at the time of sale? I think they would be nicely surprised at how much of a return a little guilt will yield. Setup Kiosks and burn the games on demand. Put the boxes out on the floor so people can still buy them, but when they checkout, they get their own media right then and there.
That media will run easily enough, but it also displays the name of the person who paid for it. Lots of people will not want that all over the Internet. For those that don't care, black list them. If an accident happens, like stolen games, they can always call to let the company know not to black list.
For the black listed folks and those that want to remain anonymous, they can buy media with the usual protections and hassles at a higher cost.
One advantage of this scheme would be replacement media. Since they have a record of what you have a license to, making a copy should be easy enough and not cost much either.
BTW, playing the Ultima game on delicate floppy discs made me think about backups. Their scheme was the old 'bad sector' one. A mis-formatted floppy would generate a read error at some point during the load process. Well, the Atari beeped for each sector loaded, so all you had to do was open the door at the right time, when using your backup to play... even that simple level of protection kept a lot of people honest.
We have come a long way since then, but I am not sure we are heading the right direction.
Blogging because I can...
keeps shrinking because LAME A$$ companies continue to fund the same old cookie cutter crap and blame the lack of profit on piracy...Sounds like a tired old record but it worked for one industry why not another...Personally no installed application software HAS ANY BUSINESS in system land, its user app crap and should have no access to drivers PERIOD...
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
> Games need copy protection so developers can get paid to write them. I'm
> no fan of copy protection, but I am a fan of developers earning enough to
> feed their family while working on the next big release. I hate disc
> protection as much as the next guy, but if it's really such hard work to put
> a disc in your CD drive then maybe you need to lose some weight and take some
> exercise because you are clearly a lazy bastard.
Nobody is opposed to developers feeding their families but according to the table at the end of this article, the game publishers seem to have pretty large families.
How many mouths can you feed for $2 billion?
It's funny, because I got the PC Spider-Man 2 ISO using bittorrent. I was a little worried at first, as there was only ONE ISO. I figured the game would need at least two discs for all the graphics. After I installed it, I was disgusted. I just couldn't believe what those fuckers did to PC gamers. A while back, I got the first Spider-Man game through bittorrent, and despite the iffy controls I liked it enough to buy it. I would have GLADLY paid $50 for the PC Spider-Man 2 game if it was the same game the consoles got. Instead, Activision is pushing a $30 retarded-kid game. And the worst part is that they don't even tell you it's not the same game! On the Spider-Man 2 ads on TV, the commercials have all the console logos AND the PC logo as well. Also, the boxes are nearly identical. The various official websites make no mention of this, either. But EVERY online review of the game has been horrible. Many people have bought the game, assuming it was the same as the console version, only to be severely disappointed. I think Activision lost much more money on the kid game than they would have lost to piracy of a good console port. At least I hope they did. I thought about picking up a PS2 (only $150 now) and getting Spider-Man 2, but that would only reward Activision for what they did.
Though it doesn't use StarForce, this same issue befell me with System Shock 2. Ever try to get this running on a Win2K/WinXP system? I'll give you a hint, the -lgntforce parameter is NOT the end-all be-all of running this game on an NT system. 3 days of playing musical OSs later, and I finally get the thing running using a cracked EXE on a pure install of XP-no patches, no DX9, no SP1, just the core OS. Of course, I can't install any of my other utilities because I'm paranoid they're going to screw up SS2's delicate copy protection scheme. And yes, I did buy the game.
Help protect civil rights from abuse by the TSA - visit TSA News Blog.
http://www.tsanewsblog.com
Client side copy protection doesn't. You can study and crack it within VMWare, I'm sure.
Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but almost as long as there were games, there was the copying of games. Games are software/data. By virtue, it is capable of being copied.
Copy protection works against that trend by basically adding in a password block, crippling the disk format, crippling the game, and now crippling the OS on which it runs.
Personally, I think the reason why games have been pirated is because of the cost of games.
A game is worked on for how long? 6 months? 1 year? Let's say a game is worked on for 2 years by a team of people... say.. 12. What would their salaries or hourly wages be? Let's say they are salaried at $65,000/year. (Some get more, some get less). A quick round of punching into the calculator reveals the salary for 2 years of continual work by 12 people on this project at an average salary of $65,000 is $1.56 million. Which when dispersed into varying numbers of games produced follows the following:
But how many copies are often made and sold in a given period of time? Hmm... why not check out Magic Box? They list the number of games sold PER YEAR, PER nation, PER console/system. This number for good games is typically in the 1.x million titles per year range while the poor performing games are in the 100 thousand per year range.
So let's take a middle road. Let's say a company produces 500,000 copies of a game per year since it is mildly successful and sells all of them. Their labor spread per copy is $3.12 per game copy. To produce the physical box and materials for the game at the production house is probably about the same(to err on the side of caution for the producers). So +$3.12 per game(includes shipping/tax/etc).
We now have a game that took 12 people 2 years to make and has been pressed and shipped in crates to the tune of a subtotal cost of $6.24. Let's round up to $7 per copy.
Now, let's compare this rather "high" production price of this hit game to how much it would sell on the racks: $39 - $59 per copy.
That's $32 - $52 margin per game.
Bear in mind. The store will tack on anywhere from 10% to 100% of the price at which they acquired the game from the publishing house.
So let's say the stores tack on 100% or 50% or the game wholesale cost. That would mean that the distribution house is selling the games wholesale at (100%): $20 - $30 per game or (100%): $10 - $15 per game to the stores.
Granted, this is alot of guestimation based on numbers from the publishing business. However, one has to wonder how much is being tacked on for anti-piracy and such when you consider that in order to sell 500k games per year, you need to produce more than that. More like to the tune of 2-3 million copies of the game. At 2 million copies, your labor cost per game is $0.78 per copy. Your printing and pressing costs likewise drop to around $1 per copy or less. So at 2 million copies, you are looking at about $2 to produce one game, but the price consumers buy it at is around 20 times that.
Anti-piracy and licensing costs for games only amounts to a few cents per copy. Otherwise, no one would license the game title or the anti-pricy software. So where does all of the padding come from?
Fear of piracy and sheer greed and desire for profit.
If the games didn't cost so d*mn much, there would be a respect dropoff in pirates as well as a higher level of purchases of the game.
The only reason why it goes is because people are willing to pay for the game and then end up copying it for friends until the level of "cost" is reduced to the right level. So a few friends, say.. 5 friends get together and chip in some money to buy a $50 game. They copy it amongst themselves and get to LAN party together. What is the cost of the game per person? $10.
Winged Power Photography
Of course, the telling evidence of Starforce's carpetbaggery is the following quote (highlights mine):
This looks to me to be the same arguments used by TV ad salesmen in the bad old days of Nielsen ratings, with one difference: at least the Nielsen people tried to make up numbers. The Starforce strategy seems to be to provide some alternative-universe scenario that may or may not occur in real life, and leave the rest as being "obvious." They don't even try to stereotype gamer demographics. There is absolutely no evidence for the success of their products (go to Megagames and check out how many Starforce-protected products have been cracked), and the above quote from the horse's mouth makes that pretty clear. This is the same scare tactic used by Macrovision and other copy protection businesses, and a reason why I have absolutely no respect for them. Pointing to BSA piracy numbers and yelling loudly isn't going to show their products work - they need to do their own damn effectiveness studies, but they're afraid of the results.In the great CONS chain of life, you can either be the CAR or be in the CDR.
With a console, a new game is PNP. I don't have to check that my hardware is up to the task, update drivers, worry about DLL hell, etc.. I pop the disc in, and hit the power button. I'm playing in under 1 minute. There are only a couple things I think consoles need to improve on in this regard.
1) Make the discs more durable. Kids play these things, they should be kid-friendly. Think MiniDisc.
2) Even better, make an option to install the game onto a hard drive. Even if I have to buy the HD seperately. Prefferably using a standard USB2/FireWire HD so I can upgrade and such. Games installed to HD could be locked to the console running it. It's crackable, but so are game discs. It would limit the casual copiers, and nothing stops the big boys anyway.
How are "copy protected" music CDs doing?
/. will not.
How about the 5-day self-destructing DVD sales?
Game developers/publishers are free to implement any protection technology they desire. In the end, though, all non-trivial copy-protection schemes share one (un?)intended result: they're an inconvenience to a certain percentage of the honest, paying customers. If either the inconvenience level or the percentage are high enough, sales will suffer.
The markets will decide whether or not StarForce is viable. Long-winded arguments on
The cure for cancer is coming: Reovirus
"PC games will never go away, but if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease." The quality of games have already decreased. Actually that's not a fair statement.. I think it's more fair to say that the Quanity of poorly made or playable games has increased. In fact, it's getting to the point that that's all you see anymore. What makes it worse is that unless you wait 6 months or so, the price doesn't drop to a respectable price. (40 bucks is resonable, not 60+ like I always see them for) I pirate games, as well as other software. I do it for 1 simple reason. Demo's are worthless, they do not show the true quality of an application or game. To get that you need to use said application or game for more than 10 days. Sometimes more than a month. I have spent literally thousands of dollars on games I have never played more than 2 hours of. I do purchase those games and applications I find worthy of my hard earned money. I even pay subscriptions to MMORPG's that I like. But I refuse to give 1 red cent to any company that produces junk.
Folks, it is only a matter of time before StarForce disappear off the face of the planet.
Right off from the first question they start spewing garbage from a technical persepctive.
Drivers cannot stop SoftICE from working, at best they can try to be aware of it and try to malfunction when they detect its presence.
Drivers can be uninstalled (the easiest method being to simply delete the file). Furthermore any activity of their driver can be spoofed by a replacement driver that just says everything is ok.
Their driver is a simple Windows IFS driver that filters filesystem calls (so called IRPs), probably based on hardware/process name. The reason they mess up people's USB drives is because they mis-detect them.
On the surface, it appears it would take only a couple hours for an experienced IFS driver writer to completely bypass their driver (probably along the lines of letting the driver run but ensuring it never gets to see any of the file system calls).
I'm willing to bet the only reason none of the games shipped with their product have been cracked has to do more with the lack of popularity of the games then with the copy protection.
A year or two ago I bought Morrowind (by Bethesda softworks) and I played it a lot and loved it.
But after a week or so, I was very annoyed by putting in the CD, and listening to the whirring of the drive during the movie clips, and the stuttering of those movies (my shitty IDE CD-ROM I guess).
So I cracked it. (I'm a programmer). I copied the movies to the hard drive, put the CD back in the box, and enjoyed my Morrowind experience more now that I didn't have to listen to my CD-ROM clunking and spinning all the time.
When the first expansion pack came out (Tribunal), I bought it. I did the same crack on that. When the Game of the Year edition came out, I installed that and cracked it too.
Even though cracking the game is probably illegal under some theory or other, and even though I could (theoretically) distribute pirated copies of my cracked Morrowind now and cause Bethesda to potentially lose some sales, I would never do that. I've paid almost $200 for Morrowind because it's a great game that deserves to be paid for. I enjoy the game and I want the company to thrive and make more great games for me to enjoy. Their mild copy protection was easy to bypass, so it only caused me limited grief.
This StarForce stuff, in comparison, looks like so much hassle that I don't think I will ever spend the $$ on a game with StarForce wrapped around it. I wouldn't use Kazaa or MSN Messenger or RealPlayer on my machine and I won't use this trojanware either.
I for one do not purchase a game unless there's a hack for it available. I have many games and keeping track of all the CDs and getting them out when I want to play for 15 minutes is a pain in the ass. If a CD goes bad, there's usually no recourse other than purchasing a new copy. Of course my CDs don't usually go bad since after I install the game they sit in their original CD cases.
I have seen many posts regarding the "fair use" of CD games, DVD's, etc... Wouldn't copy protection interfere with an owners right of fair use? If you cannot make an archival copy, and they don't provide you one at time of purchase, then wouldn't that be a violatio of fair use?
To know is to have knowledge....to understand is to be enlightened.
I, and a group of my friends, run a LAN party once a month. Very very very often, one of us will have a new game that they like very much. What do we do? We make coppies, of course.
But the amazing part is what happens next month. By next month, if the game is good enough, half of us have purchaced it. If the game is good enough, and becomes one of our regular games that we play, by the time the price of the game is less than $20, ALL of us have purchaced it.
Do we end up pirating games that we never pay for? Yes. Usually, these are the games that we take home from the party, play for 3 hours, find out that it sucks, and it isn't played at the next LAN.
If the game is worth it, we all buy it. This has happened with Half Life, Ghost Recon, Starcraft, Warcraft III, Medal of Honor, etc. Yes, some of us end up playing the game before we have purchaced it, but we do all still pay for it, the price that we feel is worthy. If it wasn't for the 'piracy' that we commit, I'm sure we would of just stuck the the major few games.
--Demonspawn
Anyone who has tried to find the single shelf of PC games hidden behind the aisles of Xbox/PS2/GC/GBA software has already figured out the ansswer.
Piracy isn't the only reason PC games are becoming more of an afterthought, but it certainly is a major consideration.
basically you buy a game and it installs a rootkit on your system.
Are you sure about that with Call of Duty? I'm running it from an image of the original disc I made in Alcohol 120% (ie, a virtual drive). I've always run it like this.
CoD is supposed to using SafeDisc 3 for it's copy protection.
(I have Nero installed, as well).
It is that simple. When I buy a game (and I buy ALL of them) I always go to gamecopyworld.com and download the cracked exe so that I don't have to deal with the disk swapping. If I can't do this, and am forced to have the CD in the drive to play, I will not buy the game. It simply is not worth the hassle.
PC Gaming is doomed in any case. On a console, the copyprotection is an annoyance for pirates (26-wire modchip with MTBF of 6 months anyone?), while on the PC it's annoyance for the legitimate user that the pirate avoids.
Consoles cost less than a top of the line video card let alone a system, have a five year lifetime, are rentable, and make more money for the developer. This situation cannot last.
If a worm were made to deliver a payload with a similar effect would it "okay"?
Of course not. The FBI would hunt the author down just like with other recent worm auhtors (or at least attempt to).
Thats my $.02
What makes you think it's an anti-war protest? He's wearing a stars & stripes doo-rag and is carrying a "GO USA" sign, and everyone around him is sporting flag-stuff also. It's not conclusive evidence, but your typical anti-war protestors don't sport a bunch of pro-USA gear.
There's also my admittedly prejudiced observation that he appears to be what people unfortunately term "white trash", and "white trash" is typically pro-war.
"PC games will never go away, but if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease."
the market has been steadily increasing, and video games have been getting consistently MORE difficult to copy, which is the exact opposite of your statement. They are still fairly easy to copy, but video games have been easy to copy since the days of 5 1/4" floppies. The health and success of the PC game market will rely as it always has, on the innovations and gameplay of new games. Nintendo isn't making money on Mike Tyson's Punch-Out anymore. They are making money on GameCube and Gameboy Advance. By the time the new system comes out and computers get to be fast enough to emulate the GameCube, Nintendo will no longer be making an appreciable amount of money on the GameCube system and games. Blizzard is no longer making money on Warcraft II. They are making money on Warcraft 3, and although it is possible to play this game wihtout paying for it, it is intractably difficult to play it to its full potential, ie online with battle.net, without paying for it. Customers who want to get the full value out of their games will put the full value into it, and the game industry will continue the incredible growth it has experienced recently.
I understand a few lies and misleading statements are all part of marketing but hijacking your customer's systems is a dirty trick and one users probably won't stand for. Someone who spend time hacking video games will probably have to waste an afternoon finding a workaround or fix for your software but you're just shovelling with a teaspoon against the tide of progress.
The only group who stands to profit from your copy protection is you, which means that once again the game makers are losing money to opportunistic dirtbags.
Write a nice letter, without cursing and being insulting. Say you won't buy the Star Force protect games. Send it to the companies on the web site
,240 Superior Blvd, Mississauga, Ontario L5T 2L2
/ corporate/ind ex.html
,Leamington Spa
/. you best have alot to say
here they are - some don't have mailing addresses, so email away! One, Nadeo, doesn't have contact info that I could find - guess they DONE'T LIKE YOU!. Or just keeping posting your complaints to Slashdot - I'm sure *that* will cause change.
CDV Software Entertainment AG
Public Relations Director, Eric Standop
Neureuter Straße 37b
76185 Karlsruhe Germany
http://www.gmxmedia.net/contact/
(no address - html form to be filled in!)
Strategy First, Inc., 147 St. Paul West, suite 300 Montréal, Quebec, Canada, H2Y 1Z5
Jennifer Lee, Hip Interactive
Monte Cristo Multimedia, 42 rue des Jeûneurs
75002 Paris France
Tesseraction Games, Kelly Asay - kellya@tesseractiongames.com
Whiptail Interactive, pr@whiptailinteractive.com
Cyanide, 236bis, Rue de Tolbiac, 75013 - Paris France
Interplay UK Ltd., Crown Lane, Marlow,
Buckinghamshire, SL7 3HL, United Kingdom
DEEP SILVER, A Division of KOCH Media GmbH
Gewerbegebiet, A-6600 Höfen
Cenega
Natalia Ciula, International PR - natalia@cenega.cz
Andrea Sladkova, International PR -
sladkova@cenega.cz
DreamCatcher Interactive
http://www.dreamcatchergames.com/dci
Ubi Soft Entertainment, 625 Third Street Third Floor, San Francisco, CA 94107
Digital Jesters, Unit 4 Weltech Centre, Welwyn Garden City, Herts AL7 2AA
Warthog Entertainment, 10 Eden Place Cheadle, Cheshire SK8 1AT, United Kingdom
Enlight Interactive Inc., 8725 Yvonne Court Way
Parkville, MD 21234
Tamra Nestler, President & CEO - tamran@trisynergy.com
Midas Interactive Entertainment Ltd , Unit 14
Stansted Distribution Centre, Start Hill Bishops Stortford, Hertfordshire CM22 7DG, United Kingdom
Codemasters, P.O. Box 6
Warwickshire, CV47 2ZT, United Kingdom
Encore Software, Inc., 16920 South Main Street
Gardena, CA 90248
I am hitting on some kind of 'too few characters per line' edit, some i going to make a great big long line with nothing but drivel and junk in it to fool the line sensor and get my posting posted on the forum without really having anything but addresses in it with this great big blob of run on at the sentence and keep making it longer and longer and until I can get by the line sensor seems like 17.9 is too few so blah blah yadda yadda four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation concieved in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal we are now engaged in a great civil war testing whether that nation may long endure still too short at 20.2 we the people in order to ensure for our decendants the blessings of liberty do hearby declare this declaration of independence ahhhh 21.4 still too short it was midnight on the ocean not a streetcar was in sight the sun was shining brightly and it rained all day that night the little fishies in their tree where cuddled in their nest and the rising sun was setting in the west while the organ pealed potatoes lard was rendered by the choir the sexton rang the dishrag someone set the church on fire holy smokes the parson shooted in the fire he lost his hair now his head resemboles heaven cause there is no parting there so there yaaa still too few at 25.1 grrr 35.5 cause we know at
"but if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy..."
Since when has the computer game market EVER shrunk, for ANY reason? What kind of drugs do they think we're on to try a line like that, and where can I get some?
The only way piracy hurts the industry is in killing of some individual games that were poorly marketed, or poor enough quality that nobody was willing to fork over $50 to get a new coaster. In just about every other way, piracy serves as free advertising... people who can afford to buy it, will hear about it and go buy it. People who can't, won't anyways.
I buy games and then download no-cd cracks for them, since I already lost one cdrom drive due to Diablo II's copy protection thrashing (it eventually blew the alignment to the point where it wouldn't read anything without multiple retries). I consider this trend of copy protection to be invasive and childish... a CD isn't a game, it's a delivery mechanism.
They argue that they don't want legitimate consumers to buy it and make copies for their friends, but what's the difference between that and just lending a physical copy to a friend? My friends and I are constantly trading PS2 games with each other. So for my 1 purchase of a PS2 game, 2 or more people are getting to play it. The publisher gets paid only by 1 customer. Is this going to be illegal some day too??
So I was thinking about the doctrine of first sale and it occurs to me that the "first sale" of most games takes place from the manufacturer to a distributor. The store buys the game from the distributor and then the store sells it to me.
Since the store and the distributor didn't have to "licence the game" and since, if they did, I was not a party to that license, isn't the doctrine of first sale long-since exhausted before I even come on the scene?
Shouldn't the BSA (et al) be going after the distributors for their act of "selling" something that they clearly should have only been "licensing".
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
After a bad buy some time ago ( i only rarely buy a game for the nieces/nephews ) i quite simple will not buy a game I cannot
1) run without cd ( they don't stand handling by 5 kids anyway)
2) does not have an no cd crack
so big deal saves me dollars, if you can't live without a game, man your addicted period !.
But yeah it sux, face it its not about you its about the corporates
right to milk you and rip you of for all they can get - thats quite simply the state of our primitive civilization.
make a choice - simple i did.
Run linux , turn a waste of time ( gaming ) into something you learn by - programming , etc.
The company I work for is currently looking into selling console games to the masses and we've been in contact with various distribution channels recently. From what I'm hearing from the distributors, the above statement isn't true.
The weird thing is, no matter who we talk to, the best price we can get for something like, say, Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow is $1.00 below the suggested retail price. I've been told by our contacts that everybody gets roughly the same price breaks and that the best we'll ever be able to do is two or three dollars below MSRP.
I have no idea where Best Buy, CompUSA, Walmart and all the others who sell games are getting their product. I've been told in various contacts that there is no dealing with publishers unless you're a game distributor, so it appears that a direct deal between Best Buy and, say, Activision isn't what's at play here.
If the large-chain retailers can get price breaks of only $3.00 per copy from these guys, I have to wonder if they're keeping games as a loss leader.
Of course, I've got to wonder if somebody's blowing smoke up my ass regarding the whole supply chain for video games.
The math is mostly sound, but you're a little low in estimation of the production cost. You have to figure overhead into the cost of goods sold. Office rent, utilities, hardware costs, Worker's Comp insurance, company-paid portions of Social Security and other stuff like that inflates your cost to a company a bit. Based on my department, a $70,000 per year employee without health benefits costs the company an additional $20,000 in overhead expenses.
You also need to factor in things like lawyers and licensing. Neither is cheap, and licensing hits in funky places. Look at video formats, for example. You're going to need a lawyer just to work out the contract details for including BIK video codec stuff. BIK wants prominent placement in your product, via a splash video, and the laywers have to argue about the order in the start up animations, if it uses sound, whether or not the user can click through it, etc.
It's clear from the price that somebody's making a killing off of video games, but I'm not really sure where it's going.
There's so little difference between politics and jihad lately...
I'm either pretty sure, or about to feel really dumb. :)
erm... I don't think Nero is a concern. I play CoD and have Nero installed. There is NO fscking way I'm going to give up Nero in favor of some stupid PC game, no matter how good the game is...
It takes an idiot to do cool things - that's why it's cool!
Top Ten Industry Facts
1/ U.S. computer and video game software sales grew eight percent in 2003 to $7 billion - a more than doubling of industry software sales since 1996.
2/ In 2003, more than 239 million computer and video games were sold, or almost two games for every household in America.
3/ Half of all Americans age six and older play computer and video games.
4/ The average age of a game player is 29 years old.
5/ The average game buyer is 36 years old. In 2003, 94 percent of computer game buyers and 84 percent of console game buyers were over the age of 18.
6/ Thirty-nine percent of game players are women.
7/ Eighty-five percent of all games sold in 2003 were rated "E" for everyone or "T" for teen. (For more information on ratings, please see www.esrb.org.)
8/ Ninety-two percent of parents surveyed who have children under the age of 18 say they monitor the content of the interactive games their children play, and 55 percent of parents say they play interactive games with their kids at least once a month.
9/ Forty-three percent of game players say they play games online one or more hours per week, up from thirty-seven percent in 2003 and thirty-one percent in 2002.
10/ More than half of game players expect to be playing as much or more 10 years from now as they do today.
"http://www.theesa.com/pressroom.html"
There is no need for this kind of protection the only thing that they are doing is giving more people the reason to move to the consols. If the consol just works, then why mess with the PC. Two games for every house hold?? Thats a helava lotta games sold.
- my $.02? - you can't have it...it's all I have!!
A meaningless document that was enclosed with the product I purchased. They can request my first born child in the EULA for all I care.
Really? Most people are perfectly aware that if you send them into a store with $50 to buy a copy of a game, they aren't really buying a copy of the game at all? You think if we picked 10 people at random and asked them what they're buying and what they can do with it they'd tell you basically what the EULA says?
I highly doubt it.
I'm gonna climb on top of the heap and respond to "if the market keeps shrinking due to the increasing ease of piracy... then the number and quality of games will almost certainly decrease.
by saying this:
let it shrink. let it disappear.
of all my game playing friends, around 20 of us, i'm the only one capable of working with cracks, duplication, work-arounds etc.
and i find it a waste of time. i can only play so many games a year. i've got my full time job. and i've got my studies.
so fucking blow me.
and just for your whining, my next 10 games will ISO rips.
oh yea, and in case you didn't catch it the first time, fucking blow me.
While I'm not blaming StarForce for anything, there are problems with a significant number of copyprotection systems currently available on the market. These are fully legitimate complaints - all of them have to do with the game begin defective (as being cited from the "Designed for Windows XP Application Specification". )
- S1.6, among other things, describes procedures on how to implement a system if the CD is not in the drive. In the first paragraph, it is clearly stated that the game should continue to run without having the user to restart the game. Most games simply state "Please Insert correct CD-ROM, click OK, and restart application."
- In the same section but next paragraph, the spec describes that games should hanle changed in CD drives and/or drive letters. A significant number of games only check the first or first few letters before giving up.
- 3.4 describes that applications must run successfully under a limited user account. Certain systems used in games such as Empire Earth require admin privilages to get past the protection (but in this case, the game thinks the CD is not in the drive rather than a lack of privilages.) The installers immediatly failing when there is no admin privilages is bad enough, especially if it doesn't try to confirm if the user can legitimatly install the product anyway.
While I am okay with copy-protection systems, it becomes a major problem the moment it violates the specification, even if it is the more minor infractions as listed above. The issue with Starforce is that it might require administrator privilages to run as it needs to load a driver into memory - I haven't confirmed this, but I'd be suprised if it didn't.
IIRC, The doom3 alpha was rather virus prone.
~~~
Click here, you know you wanna!
> As for me, I will NEVER buy a StarForce game. Yup, that's right.
> I hope that the game producers are reading this.
Don't just hope they're reading - send it to them directly. Here's what I sent to JoWood:
Just so you know, intrusive copy protection doesn't just stop pirates, it stops legitimate customers, too.
I have a bought-and-paid-for copy of Silent Storm - good game. I _would_ have a bought-and-paid-for copy of Silent Storm: Sentinels were it not for the copy protection included with it.
For people with a legitimate reason to copy purchased CDs - such as gamers with small children, or anyone who wants to make backups - intrusive copy protection methods like StarForge are a powerful reason not to buy a game.
I will never allow unreasonable programs like StarForge to be loaded onto my computer, even if that means I miss out on some good games. (The alternative is to only play cracked versions of those games, but buying a game and being forced to additionally download a cracked version in order to play it is too many hoops to jump through.)
Draconian copy protection measures like StarForge may make economic sense to your company, in which case I'm sure you'll continue. Simply keep in mind that such measures may do more harm than good to your sales.
No, what destroyed my interest in games was the load of manure that passes for today's games. Its all about eye candy and content is completely absent.
PC Games are textbook examples of a self defeating industry. PC Games are regularly packed with "features" that are half baked at best and not generally thought out on implementation and interaction (with the rest of the game).
Instead of focusing on doing certain things well they would rather make eye candy and then throw in trash. Like stuffing in a pillow it is all air, but at least a good stuffed pillow is comfortable.
Some argue that it is the current "low point" of the industry that causes this... after all these guys gotta cater to the masses or they don't get paid. Still others blame it on the overcrowding of the games industry in yet another sign of industry bloat and impotence.
Of course this all comes down to Johnny Snotnose and his inability to show restraint in purchases. How many games does Mr. Snotnose own that he finished, much less enjoys?
Nah, the crap out there is the result of the worst combination of "arty" folk and automaton corporate baboons barking for banannas.
I guess this is growing up, realizing that the things that once entertained you when young are gone forever. The "advances" seem to be steps back and just talking to the current crop of gamers gives you this sinking feeling that in more serious situations said gamer would probably need a full army of guardian angels since common sense and reason have left the building... long ago they left.
Upon second thought, perhaps the real solution is to sit my butt down and using the latest technology, focus on gameplay, interaction, story & plot and maybe just maybe focus a bit on a "smarter" game.
Oh, this was about pirating... yup, pirates are bad. Just look at their dental hygene, how can you trust anyone with a Cardinal on their shoulder... or was that a Rottweiler? Same difference when you have a patch on your eye.
Bah, to hell with you all, I am firing up Exult and then reliving the good times.
If software vendors had a perfectly impenetrable copy protection mechanism, the change in their revenues would be, nearly zero. This is because the people they accuse of being pirates have a price elasticity point that is below their artificially created market price.
For example, the price of Microsoft Office in China (prior to revision by M$FT) was the equivalent of approximately one half year's salary of the typical urban Chinese. How many people will pay half of what they earn for one copy of buggy bloated software? Exactly zero. So had Microsoft a perfect copy protection system in China, they would sell exactly zero copies of their program. They have only belatedly come to realize that thousands of people will pay $3.00 for their software, so if the choice is zero or thousands, and the price to produce it still quite low. What would you do? Can you say "Country Specific Versions" ?
The digital economy will wreak a number of changes, and this is only one of them. I leave you with this final bit of wisdom.
No form of copy protection has ever prevented a determined attacker from getting access to the protected product (and from their distributing to anyone who wants it) and yet there are countless documented cases of legitimate users who have been unable to use a product due to the interaction of its protection scheme and their legitimate equipment. If it doesn't stop crooks, and it hurts people who actually pay money, what is the logical endpoint? No one willing to pay any more money.
> Now, if only there were some way that I could let Far Cry's publishers know
> that I didn't buy their game and why.
It's called "email". Or, better yet "mail" or "telephone". (Both of those have more impact.)
> Oh, and make them care.
Standard wisdom is that for every person who actually writes a letter, 100 people feel the same but are too lazy to write. If you send a well-written and thoughtful letter (i.e., sound like an adult with money), they _will_ care. Maybe they'll still keep using the copy protection, but user complaints will be a factor they'll have to consider.
Warez groups seem to be able to crack every type of protection, whats to stop them from cracking this type of CD protection aswell?
Blizzard games have pretty good CD protection, you can burn a copy of the cd, and have a legitimate CD key. The burnt copy will install on another system, but once it comes time to play, the burnt CD isn't recognized as being the "play disc". My friend told me it's because there's some hidden serial number in the valid CD that doesn't get copied over when you burn the cd. Even this has been cracked as there are warez "patches" that allow you to play the game without a valid copy.
I cant't think of any CD protection method that hasn't been cracked, and surely, this "driver" protection method will be cracked within a month aswell.
"Software is like sex... it's better when it's free"
I am sick of copy protection schemes. I'm 32 years old and diagnosed with a severe neuro-muscular disease (Beckers Muscular Dystrophy) and use a power wheelchair for my mobility and ventilator to breathe (I kinda wish I sounded like Vader though). I need 24 hour nursing care. I use the on-screen keyboard that comes with win2k to type. Now my disability sucks a whole lot and gaming is some of my only enjoyment, besides movies and sci-fi novels. It sucks big-time having to ask my nurse to change cd's for me all the time. This draconian protection scheme really messes things up for the disabled by preventing us from using virtual cd mounting programs like Alcohol. I don't want to have to ask for help to just to play a game. I need help with everything else; I deserve some independence on my pc, at least. These companies never think about us. Why should they? Physically disabled people belong to a tiny minority.
Graphics are no longer the biggest part of the equation. Perhaps in the last few years. Now they are too easy to develop. Game engines are available for little cost. There isn't a rule that says you need cutting edge.
.01 of a second, you can be more lax.
Also OpenGL programming is getting to the point (shaders et al) that you can create a realitic engine that is suited for your game environment with ease.
Also, whereas before game engines used to be 'outdoor' or 'indoor' with the billions of polygons being flashed in front of our eyes every
I think the greatest costs would be in actors, scripting, polish etc. Perhaps films used to blow budgets on special effects before, but now the costs of the sfx are reducing (even though they are trying more abitious things) and they are saving money by using virtual cars instead of real ones.
Now it is naive to think that you can pick up an open source engine and make a commercial success, but the biggest improvements to the half life code recently was Havok physics, even thought the graphics are fantastic.
Developing graphics in the Quake1, Unreal age was about money, now you can use 20 lines of tutorial code to load a mesh, and texture it, and env texture it, and shadow it.
You don't have to know the math behind it.
#hostfile 0.0.0.0 primidi.com 0.0.0.0 www.primidi.com 0.0.0.0 radio.weblogs.com
You pirated the game so you could try it.
:D
I am waiting for the demo, I am patient I guess (or not patient to wait for 1.5gb on a 256 line...
*cough*
ahem. No you see, the demo is enough for me. bf1942 - I heard good things, but busy as I am, I guess it is lucky for me that I haven't played it.
Basically your point is, release timely demo versions so we can try before we buy, else we might pirate to not get our finger burnt (playing a mast. mode)
#hostfile 0.0.0.0 primidi.com 0.0.0.0 www.primidi.com 0.0.0.0 radio.weblogs.com
How to bypass Starforce thread.. http://shop.alcohol-soft.com/campain.php?campain=s lashdot&forwardpage=http://forum.alcohol-soft.com/ index.php?showtopic=13836&hl=starforce
First, set the following system variables:M GR_SHOW_DETAILS=1
.sys drivers! (cracked version of Doom 3 works fine on Win9x for instance).
DEVMGR_SHOW_NONPRESENT_DEVICES=1
DEV
Then go to Device Manager and choose View->Show Hidden Devices and then double-click "Non-Plug and Play Drivers".
There you can see them all, like secdrv (SecuROM).
They can be easily uninstalled there but after that uncracked games might not work.
By the way, these copy protection drivers are the reason some games work only on Windows 2000 or better, Win9x can't use
Capitalization is the difference between "Helping your uncle jack off a horse" and "Helping your uncle Jack off a horse"