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Dell No Longer Selling Systems w/o Microsoft OS
UPDATES
1. Effective 8/26 - New Microsoft contract rules stipulate that we can no longer offer the "NO OS" option to our customers beyond September 1st. As such all customers currently purchasing a "NO OS" option on either OptiPlex, Precison or Latitude for the express purpose of loading a non-MS OS will have the following options:
1. Purchase a Microsoft OS with each OptiPlex, Precision or Latitude system.
2. For OptiPlex and Precision - purchase one of the new "nSeries" products (offered for GX260, WS340 & WS530 - details in the attached FAQ) that are being created to address a different OS support requirement other than a current standard Microsoft OS.
We must have all "No OS" orders shipped out of the factory by September 1st. The "No OS" legend code and SKUs will be I-coded on 8/19 and D-coded on August 26th to ensure shipment of orders prior to September 1st. FYI - this effects all of our competitors as well.
MS using its market power to force computer makers to include MS if they want to have a decent contract with Microsoft (and thus stay competitive in the market)?
Glad to see MS learned so much from the brutal slap on the wrist they received.
Please note, I will not buy a DELL 'DUDE.' They can keep their computer with the MS OS.
Interestingly enough, I was trying to explain this same concept to my father no longer then an hour ago. I'll have to show him this note.
He seems to beleive that "they just make the better product, so people buy it. That's why they are so big. Not because they're an evil company"
01101001 01100001 01101101 01101110 01101111 01110100 01100001 01101100 01100001 01110111 01111001 01100101 01110010
Just what is fraud anyway?
Fraud is the use of a false or deceptive statement for the purpose of getting your money.
Microsoft's lie that it is not a monopoly clearly qualifies as false or deceptive. And, they clearly have given it for the purpose of getting your money.
NexuSys - Linux support by the best
Why don't you advertise those "other" systems? Anyway, my next system is going to be bought at..get this Mr. Dell...walmart.com.
purchase one of the new "nSeries" products that are being created to address a different OS support requirement other than a current standard Microsoft OS. Are they talking Linux here, or what? Does anybody have a link to the mentioned FAQ?
Either Microsoft is acting all monopolisitc again, requiring all these fancy regulations, and just being plain evil, or,
Microsoft is just not comfortable with no OS installed, which means that the user will have to 'find' an OS, that might just be Windows. Although they seem to be very vague, it's not like they're saying you can't get the OS you want.
To add my own personal view, if it weren't for the "because of Microsoft Licensing" bit, it would seem to be a reasonable and sensible strategy. These 'Alternative OS' systems might be customized to used parts that have better driver support, etc.
Anyways, let's watch the flame war begin....
How do we get this information to (legal) people that might be interested in doing something about it? Perhaps the group that was prosecuting microsoft in the anti-trust trial would like a community effort to discover these sorts of things, to use as evidence.. ?
Not much here - I suspect the "attached FAQ" which we are supposed to see fills in some details, where is it?
M$ has always been brash...I think it's this type of charging at the US government that has always kept them off-kilter. That, and their large portion of the US economy has made the Government skittish about confronting their obviously Monopolistic tactics.
All it's going to take is a young Attorney with the lack of political awareness to tell the Emperor that he has no clothes.
So let's toast to the young an Naive. Personally, in a world where M$ can do this, I think drunk is a preferred state.
Going Boldy where I surely don't belong,
JoeLinux
Eagles may soar, but weasels never get sucked into jet plane engines.
Yes, microsoft are bastards, but really:
just fdisk the thing when you get it.
You can still go to Powernotebooks.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
This just gets me mad! I can't wait until we can stick it TO THE MAN! I swear the the DOJ and MS are in bed together with their settelement. IT IS A CONSPIRACY! Public proof that Microsoft is a monopoly trying to squash the competition. If the DOJ doesn't do something about it then it will come back around to bite MS and DOJ in the ass.
After all they have been found guilt of monopilistic practicies, they are guilty. Theyve lied to consumers, they've leveraged power in an unfair fashion, it's all a matter of public recorcd isn't it?
The second the computer hardware industry gets over it's undying need to profit and destroy its competitors, it can finally do something about Microsoft. If they were all to tell MS at the same time "Hey, guess what, we're going to dictate the terms of what OS goes on our machines now", then MS would be up a creek without a paddle. Unfortunately, the likelihood of this happening is slim to nil, the second a large comp manufacturer did this, the others would go the other way and run to MS saying "Look at what CompStore2002 is doing! We won't do that, give us a break on the licensing!"
Microsoft is using the greed of the industry against itself. Without hardware to run it on, software is useless, and Microsoft is useless. They are in a far more precarious position then they let on...Maybe it's time to give them a little scare
"Anybody who tells me I can't use a program because it's not open source, go suck on rms. I'm not interested." (LT 2004)
... and of course, our lovly government won't do a damn thing about it, because we have big-company loving Dubbya in office who has no problems with the current state of affairs, and despite what trash comes out of his mouth, will do as little as he can while still holding public opinion.
If you don't believe me, i've got some Worldcom stock i'd love to sell ya.
Our only hope is that the remaining states that care about this take this all the way though and some real punishments will come out of it.
Microsoft should be split for its monopolysing policies directed to completely remove competitors of it.
MS Sucks!
Computer Help
Does this affect your ability to purchase a linux server from Dell?
What a stupid move on the part of Microsoft. Nothing would push the judge in the anti-trust case more towards the 9 dissenting states.
Whos idea was this? The smart buisness move would have been to finish the settlement of their current anti-trust case, then lock down their vendors. By doing this now, they are asking for trouble.
Typical Microsoft arrogance.
do a google search for:
coke pepsi exclusive contract
The basic sleazeware produced in a drunken fury by a bunch of UCBerkeley grad students was still the core of BIND. --PV
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Right now get Dell computers at an insanely low price! That's right! We've been threatened by Microsoft and our loss is your gain! Get this 2 Ghz Linux box for only 599.00! Seriously, can we look forward to a sale since they have to be out by Sep 1?
Build Your Own System.. I assume that most /. geeks do anyway.. Generally people who can;t build thier own system will find linux hard to grasp anyway. Linux is cool, don't get me wrong, as (of a week ago) all of my systems run RedHat, but as stated on another /. story, how many of your moms run linux? Or your dopy blonde sister's run linux?
"It's not like your minds are as open as the source you love..." - Me to the majority of Slashdot.
Microsoft in its wisdom feels it has the best product out there and 99% of the people that purchase a computer are going to use there product.
Since this is a FACT in there eyes, They can not understand the legality of anyone purchasing a system without a OS.. As soon as there lawers see a tally stating that 10% of the computers sold where sold using the NO OS option, They begin to think..
We are the best? We are on 99% of the computers out there right? That means only 1% can be non-windows right? So where do the other 9% get there copy of windows that they must be using by our math?
OF COURSE.. Those 9% are pirating our software... If we don't allow them to sell NO OS products we reduce pirating...
Personal Website
Ok I see this in two ways. MORE MS Monopoly, and
Dell probably signed a sweetheart of a deal with MS for say 10 bucks per copy of OS they ship. However Dell has a built in per system cost for 50 bucks per OS into all builds. All companies do this, think you are getting a good deal on the car? They all make money.
So Dell signs a sweetheart deal. Adds 40 bucks of profit for each PC sold. No brainer for the bean counters. Cause they already ran the numbers and saw Linux support would cost them for more than selling Linux PC's would make them. I bought a few Linux servers from them and had to reinstall as soon as I got em. But then again who doesnt with any os?
MS still goes out on Dells as well. We should look at what the bennies are for Dell.
Two Things.
Dell says " 2. For OptiPlex and Precision - purchase one of the new "nSeries" products (offered for GX260, WS340 & WS530 - details in the attached FAQ) that are being created to address a different OS support requirement other than a current standard Microsoft OS."
Ok so they are addressing the issue and selling systems with other OS options than MS. OK, so the above means you can still go non-ms on certain systems.
I want to see the attached FAQ the email talked about before I start the barn burning.
The whole story please.
Puto
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
This isn't so much about being a monopoly as it is being absurd.
Sure, the business model seems to work fine.
Microsoft says: "If everyone is using our operating system, we make lots of money".
Dell says: "We sell a lot of computers using the microsoft operating system *anyway* - and in fact, they make up 90% of our business - so why argue? Let's just switch to 100% microsoft!"
See, here's the problem. If Microsoft is the only company supplying operating systems to home users, we have no growth in the operating system market. People are content to see their system crash, people are content to pay 200 dollars more with their PC for an intangible piece of software which claims to be better than everything else.
Sure, I like WindowsXP. I use it often, my machine dualboots XP and Redhat. But I like the option of booting redhat, and I like the option that Dell had previously given their customers.
I wish dell would just say no. Dell, Gateway, the rest of them should form the same trust that microsoft has. If all the computer manufacturers got together and said, "You know what? We're not going to take this. From now on, you're slashing the price of your OS or no one is going to use it, because it wont be available for any systems." Microsoft would listen quick, or would call lawyers against the same type of bullying that they themselves do.
Oh well. Another one bites the dust.
Well, this might mean any of several things:
a) There has been some legal development in what's left of the legal arguement that we don't know about, but is distinctly in Microsoft's favor, and has made them more bold
b) Dell might have decided that the "No OS" clause doesn't restrict them from selling Linux boxes, and along with other vendors allowed Microsoft to set these terms to get cheaper licenses. What Microsoft defines as "No OS" isn't clear, but Linux certainly isn't "No OS", at least here in the real world.
c) Microsoft is becoming increasingly worried that the legal proceedings are not going well, and wants to get this new contract into effect before the judge forbids such moves
d) Or the most likely of all - Microsoft is ignoring all legal and consumer issues and is being openly anticompetitive in order to milk the cash cow some more. Maybe they believe that if they act like the consumer doesn't and shouldn't give a rip about it, it will be true.
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
Productivity out of the box!
That and maybe it'll be a level to convince MS to lower the basic price of their product, since they have to sell so many damn copies of it anyway.
That and you can always erase it if you don't want it.
Really, what's the big deal here? Free software on the hoof.
Otherwise, you want to have another choice -- build your own damn machines and save a grand for each machine.
Okay, so you want Linux and enterprise support... I hear IBM does the Linux thing. Why don't you give them a call.
If Dell wants to cave to Microsoft, then consumers who really care will take their money to IBM or one of the independent vendors.
In the meantime, does the Department of Justice read the newspaper? What are they thinking??!!
-brian
I really don't see this as being a bad thing on Dell's part. MSFT is doing something crappy to the hardware folks (big suprise, they've done it before). Dell is, in case nobody noticed, planning on an alternative for folks that don't want MS OSen installed (see point 2 in the memo). Frankly, I'm more disappointed with Dell as a potential customer for not offering AMD-based solutions than I am for them this.
Also, this is only in reference to their consumer product line (if you define the precisions to be semi-consumer). You'll notice if you go to their site that "No Factory Installed Operating System" is the default for their server products... I'd be waaaaay more pissed to be forced into paying ~ 800 usd for win2k server than I would be about ~100 usd for xp. Also, the consumer line is where it's most likely the customer is going to want windows, it's a much more ambiguous situation on the server end of the spectrum (NT? NetWare? Unix?) so Dell is listening to their customers by offering a wide range of choice there.
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
Seriously, before we go off on a big spree about how Microsoft is bad and all that, let's keep in mind that Dell could have fought the licensing in court if they really wanted to. They could have used the precedent of Microsoft as a monopoly to tell them to fsck off. Microsoft could have tried to "punish" them, and Dell could have beat them down even further. There is/was a perfect chance to fight against the monopoly, but Dell just turned over and gave up.
Yes we're all QUITE aware of how evil M$ is. I could rant about that for days, but here on Slashdot it's preaching to the choir. What I see here is a company (Dell) basically enabling that evil to thrive. Wanna boycott something? Boycott Dell and make them realize they should have fought back.
Electronic Frontier Foundation for online civil rights information
For all we know, CmdrTaco could be trolling us. Can't we have a little corroboration before everyone goes off the deep end?
Friends don't let friends use multiple inheritance.
I'm sorry, but after reading this "submission" without any additional links to information from Dell I have to ask: what's with the topic subject? The submission content looks more like like Dell's just no longer allowing computers to be ordered with no operating systems whatsoever, not just specifically Microsoft OS's.
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
On the other hand, everyone just knows that a company such as dell cannot sell its products without putting a Microsoft OS on it. (Well atleast not to the general public). The best course of action for them is to agree to Microsoft's terms, because if they want to stay in business, they really have no other choice.
Where this hurts consumers is, that they _HAVE_ to pay for a Microsoft OS whenever they buy hardware. I dont run windows anywhere anymore. I have 2 unused MS OS licenses for win95 and win98. I paid for that software and didn't even use it. Ofcourse, I just build my own systems now, so its not like I no longer have a choice.
What about companies then? At my old workplace we had several dell computers running linux and Solaris 8 (i386 version). I'm not sure if we had gotten windoes preinstalled on those systems, or not. But now we would've gotten it for sure. My company would have been forced to pay for something it didn't use.
Thats not in the consumers best interest...
- Tempestdata
FYI - this effects all of our competitors as well.
Can anyone confirm this? Making cries of "I'm not going to buy a Dell now" are silly unless you're willing to expand your list to (probably) Gateway, Compaq, HP, E-machines(are they a competitor?) if this is actually the case.
But surely I must be able to legally opt out of the EULA by returning the sealed agreement.
If there is a license agreement then there MUST be an opt-out mechanism of some sort.
Or would you have to return the whole computer !
I imagine if 1% of slashdot readers bought a Dell (or other brand) read and refused the terms in the EULA and asked to return the machine/software Dell and others would get the point and force the issue with MS
I just stick with building my own PCs. So far, I've never actually had to purchase a Microsoft OS.
Just offer a copy of Linux for the ultra low price of $1, stipulate the product comes with no support what-so-ever and voila, problem solved. Of course, MS would probably hit them back hard for doing something like that.
I opened this page and I got a Microsoft .NET ad in the middle of the story. I think Slashdot needs some psychotherapy...it is a touch schitzo.
Even if this is legit, is it really that big of a deal? Most Linux users know enough to ignore the "Dude, you're gettin' a Dell" dude, and build their own systems anyway.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Why does buying a new computer mandate that you've got to license a new product from microsoft?
If I've already got a windows machine, in theory, why can't I just install the same OS license on the new box and throw away the old one? (I know, scary, but it's what most people do).
Seems like extortion and product bundling to me. It's like mandating that every time boeing sells a plane, they bundle 500 million gallons of jet fuel and charges an extra 15%, even though most airports just don't need that surplus.
To make a long story short... I am getting a Dell laptop to replace my workstation where I work. It comes with Win XP Pro preinstalled. Seeing as I have Slackware 8.1 on my workstation right now... I'm left wondering... should I format the dell, or just dual boot linux, and never use windows. Here's the burning question... which would be better? (Wiping the MS OS and never using it, or keeping it installed, no noone else can use it, and never use it.) ...
Seeing as it's already been paid for... probably a moot point. Should show this link to the folks who make the decisions where I work...
FLR
This only applies to some models.
Beware:
It is now time to flip off your computer.
Between the way various article postings lately are all but Slashddot-sanctioned trolls (EU-only internet, anyone?), the fact that I don't think even Microsoft is so stupid as to try something like that when Judge Kolar-Kotelly hasn't signed off on anything one way or the other (Ballmer wouldn't want to find himself in a cell for contempt of court), and the story comes from "some sysadmin" whose "e-mail address" is in the Hotmail domain...
Well, let's just say I'll believe this story once it's verified by a third party.
It's all part of Dell's hip new marketing plan to reach the "inner city."
Coming soon: "Heeb with a USB," "Spic with a RISC," and "Fag with an Asset Tag."
They even go as far as to tell you what version on the Windoz system you can have on what model.... (system A can only come with X.P. etc.....) not good.
earlier this summer i tried to order a latitude without any operating system and everyone at dell said that i couldn't do that. so i decided not to get a new computer. is the announcement located on dell's webpage so that i can tell the operator if they're stopping 'no os' options by september 1, then there must be a 'no os' option now.
yeah, i know it's a pain in the a$$ but c'mon you know you were just gonna format and repartition it anyway....
Base 2 yields only ARTIFICIAL Intelligence
Every time slashdot editors posts another MS story implicating that Microsoft is so evil, I wonder if they realize what two-faced they are.
.Net Ads! So these guys love to whine on and on how Microsoft is killing competition, defrauding the public, causing global warming, but love to patronize them and take in their ad money!
I believe the editors run Windows, if only to play games. And what are those big ads i see here, Microsoft
If you believe Microsoft is so bad, why don't you stop contributing to their bottom line? It may not be easy to stop playing windows games, but you have other options. Or stop accepting money to run ads on your own site from that Evil Empire, the Borg. It may not be easy, but life is not easy. Grow a backbone and take a goddamn stand.
If you can't do that, then you guys are nothing but weak hypocrites.
SIG:Slashdot: indymedia for nerds.
Maybe that's what is needed. Let it go and it will come back and bite them on the ass. Two birds with one stone.
Why yes I am paranoid! Thanks for asking!
There are two problems with that:
1. Microsoft is pushing that having a computer with an OS other that installed on it is illegal (especially when they are donated to schools.)
2. More imporantly, Microsoft gets paid for every computer that sells with their OS. If you buy with theirs and remove it, you just gave MS your money for no reason.
~ kjrose
(marked up 200 dollars because of windows XP installation - sorry :()
...all of my attempts to purchase a Dell laptop last week with Linux preinstalled were met with blank stares and head scratching. Oh, well. There are at least five salespeople at Dell who now know that at least one person out there would prefer not to pay for a Microsoft OS.
No it doesn't ur dumb.
While trying to research what was available for a neighbor ready to buy a new system, I made a call to Dell with a question. The salesperson insisted that I create an account just to ask if a certain Dimension series used a friggin' FlexATX MoBo.
I was incensed by the attitude. My neighbor and I tried the website...but specs weren't available. She bought one anyway, the next day. Her sales rep worked diligently to sell her everything he could to inflate her budget by about 25%.
I'm about to go back to building boxes. Dammit.
db
Cig:
ôô
That a Dell PC would cost you a truckload of money more than one from Wal-Mart anyhow, so go buy your OSless PC there. And be sure to let your relatives and such know where they can get non-MS PCs when they think of buying.
Actually their Dimension 8500 series are not all bad, they are pretty cheap.
I had to buy one because my sister is going to college. Before everyone flames me for not building one, I have done this before, and its not worth the time/effort supporting it in the future. I might have saved a whole $50 by building one.
I use Linux at home of course, but I don't think my sister would be able to figure it out.
What do you want Dell to do? Go up head to head against M$?
-mlr
For this, today i will go out and buy 100 CDR's and make ILLEGAL copies of WINDOWS XP and hand them out for FREE!!!
I suggest everyone does the same, we'll call it economic terrorism, and then they will get congress to put big brother in all our computers and houses and cd-r drives to check what we do 24/7 to fight this evil 'terrorism'
muahahahah!!!!
Will die, like Netscape, Lotus, etc... that in the past was great partners from MS.
http://www.microsoft.com/education/?id=DonatedComp uters
This is a good example about computers and no os. According to Microsoft, and so far Microsoft only, it a legal requirement to transfer a computer with it original OS. Now this is in regards to transferring, and they might be pushing this so called legal requirement to have an affect on OEM computer manufacturers to include their OS on the computers as well.
In any case, just build your computers from scratch, and install what you want. If I can make a modification to something I buy, then why make it accessible to begin with?
Okay, so let's say I've bought 20-30 licenses for Windows 2000. So far each computer I've ordered from Dell has been w/o a license.
Now then, I order another 30 licenses for Windows 2000 because Microsoft has decided to dump the sale of W2K. Do I get my money back from Microsoft after I get a new license from Dell with the new computers?
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
I was just on dells site and I configured Box and funny how it's 200.00 bux more with linux than with MS OS shit... hrmm isn't that lame
What they mean is that they are going to go from offering "hardware A, available as model B, with option C" to "hardware A available as model D which is available only with option C"
Bascially, the contract with MS says that they can't get the OEM price unless they sell the model in question with only MS products. So, they have to create another "model" which they ship without an OS. The obfuscation in the letter is designed to avoid outright saying that they're using the word of the contract against MS, so that MS can't say in court that Dell violated the contract in spirit (I'm not sure how defensible that would be, but if I were Dell, I'd avoid it too).
1 - There is no contract with Microsoft that has any changes effective 9/1. All Dell contracts are signed based on our fiscal calendar not 9/1.
2 - While it is true that Dell is no longer offering a choice of OS or No OS on certain hardware this is more of an issue with the cost of doing non standard builds and supporting alternative Operating Systems.
3 - Dell is in the process of developing a new platform specifically for Non Microsoft OS's that will be available in time for the holidays.
This announcement will not have any affect upon the current litigation. At least not the case by the States.
The reason is that all testimony has already been taken.
It is just like the stupid decision by the appellate court that Microsoft did not try to monopolize the browser market. That was clearly incorrect but the court is strapped with the evidence in the case as of the testimony. And as of years earlier, Microsoft only acheived about a 50% market share. And, with those facts before the appellate court, you are likely to get such an opinion.
However, when the AOL case gets to the jury, facts will be completely different. Then 90-95% will be evidence. Very different indeed.
That is a basic problem with the legal system and it is why Microsoft lawyers can lie in public the way they do. Microsoft lawyers lie to the press and to the public based upon old facts that are clearly no longer relevant. But, to the ignorant, it is a sale.
Funny, however, that Microsoft again starts to lie about having a monopoly.
But, they are just a bunch of cheap liars anyway. They have proven that numerous times.
Remember the idiot under oath who told the judge that SUNs JVM was not included with XP because of the GPL?
And, remember the idiot that told the judge that Microsoft will withdraw from the market if it does not like the judgment?
And, remember the three stouges that each claimed they thought removing icons had something to do with commingled code.
Microsoft's lies are not even credable and yet they spit them out to defraud consumers. And, the judges as it turns out.
NexuSys - Linux support by the best
Microsoft makes a significantly better product - it's easier to use, has fewer bugs, is more secure. That's why people buy it.
It should probably be noted that this probably does not include PowerEdge servers. While I have never been able to figure out how to get an OptiPlex system without a Microsoft OS, I believe the servers will still offer the no-OS/linux OS option.
I didn't receive the e-mail, but the snippet above does not mention servers and they are usually handled differently.
Dell is the #1 or #2 PC supplier in the world. They have a tremendous amount of power with all of their suppliers. If they really didn't want to agree to this they didn't have to. They simply could have said NO and Microsoft would have changed their agreement. They don't want to risk another PC vendor promoting and improving Linux like IBM has done.
If Dell agreed to this it is because they didn't believe the fight was worth it. They have made a lot of statements to the fact that they aren't making any money off Linux sales so it makes sense that they would choose to do this.
If the Linux community wants the big PC vendors to start supporting Linux and making agreements that don't harm the Linux community they need to start making it apparent to Dell. The next time your company is looking to upgrade its desktops contact Dell and request a quote for their standard business desktop with Linux preinstalled. When they point out that only certain systems are available inform them that you know for fact that Redhat/Mandrake/Debian/Etc. installs perfectly on the Optiplex you want and that you will be taking your business to another PC vendor that supports MS. If Dell wants your business they will meet your needs, and their policies towards restrictive Microsoft licenses will change.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
They didn't even get a slap on the wrist for this behavior.
Read the court's findings of fact. The court decided this behavior was an "anti-piracy" measure--not the anti-competition measure it really was.
Until court judges actually gain a technical IQ higher than 60 Microsoft will continue to be able to do this and more because they can continue to defraud the court into believing their actions, tactics and products are necessary and legal and don't constitue a monopoly.
I agree that BeOS should step up to the plate and use this latest contractual addendum as an example of the anti-competitive tactics that are used by Microsoft.
I will never live for sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
I see lots of angry condemations here - but this is actually very typical price negotiation. Microsoft didn't go to Dell and tell them they couldn't sell PCs with other OSes or they wouldn't sell them Windows any more. Microsoft went to Dell and offered them huge discounts to Windows if they signed an exclusive offer. Dell saw the dollar signs and agreed.
Dell has done a pretty good job with their letter blaming MS...but MS would be ignoring basic business practices if it didn't offer and option like this. I'm sure Dell is happy with the deal and laughing all the way to the bank.
My first thought was that it's an anti-piracy measure.
Microsoft must think that some of these "No OS" buyers will install an illegitimate copy of an Microsoft OS or that they'll abuse one of their legitimate licenses. The less-than-elegant "solution" of making them buy one anyways is interesting.
However, as the subject says, doesn't this screw the companies who purchase volume licenses? Why bother buying those licenses at all if you can't buy computers from one of your sources without an OS anyways?
Can companies ask their supplier to sell them systems utilizing the OEM key instead of paying for another MS OS+license?
Microsoft isn't saying Dell can't sell systems with the Linux OS or even a marginally functional one, Microsoft is saying Dell can't sell systems without any operating system. Kind of reminds me of the story of drilling a hole in a piece of wood and calling it a finished product to avoid a tariff on raw materials.
It seems pretty lame to me how GROSSLY WRONG the title of this article is. Nowhere does it say that Dell won't ship without a MS OS, in fact the very first sentences state this. Dell would no longer ship with NO OS. What a huge difference, and what a load of FUD put out by /.
Know that I am a Linux supporter who doesn't run a MS OS at home, but I still believe in honest reporting. If we are to smear back, does that make us any better? Nope.
My company buys Dells, lots and lots of them. Dell notebooks, Dell workstations, some Dell servers. My company also has a site license for Windows (including XP and Office). That means,
when machines come in they get wiped and ghosted with whatever OS is appropriate for that machine. We very definitely would be paying twice if this applied to our purchases. Because we pay a [large] fortune in annual fees to MS [and other vendors] for the site license. It's quite ridiculous, since the license is per-cpu, which means that Mac's and Sun's have Windows licenses, as do all the BSD and Linux boxes.
Maybe us having to buy it twice, once retail and once wholesale, will be ridiculous enough to get the attention of my [large] company's suits. Or any company's suits would do. Anything that can get anybody besides a slashdotaholic to regard this problem will be a good thing.
Isn't hypocrisy a bit overrated as a sin?
If I am trapped in a difficult situation and have to take money from an unfair employer in order to eat and stay alive, am I forbidden from criticising that employer's greedy and dishonest practices, and telling others about them?
Whether or not slashdot is hypocritical to accept Microsoft ads, this hypocrisy would have no effect on the validity or truth of claims published on slashdot about MS. Belief that taking MS money makes criticism of MS wrong puts consistency ahead of other virtues without any grounds for doing so, and is known as the ad hominem fallacy.
Though I'm sure such people exist, I can't recall ever meeting a single non-Microsoft user over the past decade or so that bought a Dell box just to install Linux or [insert alternative OS here] on it, though I've done it myself on a work-provided box. The only "people" that do this are corporations that buy preconfigured servers with *BSD or something installed on it.
...unless you're buying a laptop.
Seriously, why pay Dell $1300-$1500 or more for a box you could easily and quickly build yourself for half that price? Why bother with esoteric junk like motherboard riser cards and OEM-specific PSU plugs, or non-reusable cases?
I can understand corporations buying the brand name so they have something to blame if something goes wrong (I hate corporate philosophy), but this shouldn't affect end users in the slightest...
But even then, just about every *nix installer these days will conveniently format an existing Windows partition if it's told to. If you're going to pay as much as Dell and its competitors charge for an OEM box, you can afford the additional $100 for the unnecessary Windows license.
That's what corporations do. It is the corporate officer's duty to undertake whatever actions maximize ...
It was Hitler's duty to...
Lets say that Firestone tells Ford that if they want Firestone's high performance special tire for a new Ford hot rod (only made by Firestone) Ford has to outfit their entire product line with Firestones. It's an all or nothing deal. What happens then? Bridgestone, Cooper, and all the other manufacturers sue. They'd probably win too. How come that doesn't work here? This just plain sucks.
So if I have to buy a computer from Dell with windows and I plan on using something else, can
I sell my unused copy of windows on ebay? (Only if I got the CD with the computer?)
Imagine the same action taken by a large publisher in the bookselling industry.
Barnes and Noble: "Our contract with HarperCollins stipulates we can no longer sell blank journals or college ruled notebooks. Customers will have the following options:
1. Purchase a book published by HarperCollins.
2. Purchase a book published by another publisher.
HarperCollins demanded this because we all know people don't use blank paper to write their own stories or notes, but to pirate their intellectual property.
FYI-This affects all our competitors as well."
I don't need large brains to have a good time.
Since I can still build my computer (and chose to do so) this affects me none. I think it may be interesting for the anti-trsut trial since it is obvious that they are leveraging their stregth in the market to the possible detrement of other products. That should not stop IBM from adding servers that come installed with linux, so again, not a huge impact here.
what a load of horseshit!!!
boycot Dell computers, and that punk kid that sells Dell compoooters on TV, if i ever see him in person i will punch him right in the nose, he does not know who i am so he will never see it coming...
Are they considered a competitor?
IWARS.
People, in general, disappoint me. Politicians even more so.
DUDE, you're getting ripped off!
- Steve
_
Awesome Animated 3D Windows Cursors
We wanted linux to run the enterprise, so we just bought a certified linux cluster from HP. This thing costs us a boat load of money, a boat load of money DELL will never see. Dell is going to do to themselves what Gateway did, they are not enterprise players.
Got Code?
What about corporate purchases, where there already exists a blanket Windows license covering all their equipment so a standard build can just be Ghosted on? Wouldn't a company with such a license in effect be paying for Windows twice? I'm sure Microsoft is deeply concerned about being paid twice and how it's completely unfair to the customer.
Why doesn't Dell have the balls to say no? I mean, come on, Microsoft would take a hell of a hit if they yanked Dell's Windows distribution license. Someone has to stand up to Microsoft besides Apple, for Christ's sake.
I mean, where I live (Europe), when you go to the shop you simply say you don't want Windows, and they sell you the computer without anything on the disk. Very few shops sell systems with Linux installed, but none will force you to buy Windows if you don't want it.
This is exactly what drove me to buy an iBook over a wintel notebook. I found it extremely offensive that I could not purchase a relatively decent laptop without purchasing Windows XP with it.
Ludicrous!
just to not use it?
Wow.
Do you often post while on drugs?
this effects all of our competitors as well.
This seems phony to me. Nobody in corporate communications would get "effects" and "affects" confused.
Instead of merely preformatting future harddrives, they'll all come preinstalled with Microsoft DRM-OS.
The cost of hard drives will increase 4-fold, and it will be "our own fault for pirating Windows so damned much." Congress will pass a law prohibiting the reformatting of hard drives to circumvent the DRM-OS (oh, I suppose the DMCA would apply, but they'll pass another law for good measure).
Someone will be made an example of, probably a dirty hacker-type who was getting a little too uppity with his IT-grade salary. Too rich for the poor folk to sympathize with, but too poor to admire for his chutzpah. The public will fall into line, and the publishing industry will be double-plus-safe. What a relief for all of us that will be, because there'll be no reason to fight anymore. We will have lost.
I don't need large brains to have a good time.
They will pimp anything anyone will pay for.
>>The problem is that even if they did for an
>>olipoly to combat microsoft's monopoly, they
>>would lose. The fact is that 99% of the PC
>>customers will want a microsoft OS.
I disagree - what people want is the ability to swap files without incompatibilities between systems. Look at MP3s as a simple example. Any chance M$ is going to monopolize an application using the MP3 format?
As far as I care, leave M$'s O/S alone and force the DOC, XLS, PPT, etc. file formats to be open sourced and available to everyone. Don't give me the "need to innovate" BS - nothing worthwhile has been added to M$Word since v6.0 for DOS. You'll see the world switching off of M$ as soon as their IT departments rubberstamp the change request(s).
Once the file formats are open, we'll start to see some decay in M$'s stranglehold....
10 MD
Look, I'm not some fanatical Linux Zealot on the fringes of society. I'm a programmer, system administrator, IT manager, whatever you want to call it. I use Linux and other free OSs, and I really hate being treated like some psycho zealot on the fringe when I try to avoid doubly (and sometimes triply) licensing microsoft software for Clients' PCs. ("You want what? We don't do that? Whats a EULA?" HP, Compaq, Gateway and now Dell. its all the same.) I mean, honestly, where is my FTC? Where is my consumer protection? It goes beyond frustrating.
Wendell
Next the RIAA will restrict the sale of audio-playback devices. They will not allow any device to be able to play RIAA content unless the device is shipped with _every_ single RIAA produced song stored on a massive hard-drive in mp3 format. All mp3 players, cd-players, computers etc. will have to be shipped with this hard-drive, at a cost to the end user, even if they dont want to play RIAA content.
This kinda reminds me of the TV licensing system here in the UK. Everyone must pay a fee to be able to have TV(s) in their home, the fee goes to the BBC to pay for programming, even though there are other terrestrial channels which make money from advertising. In order to watch these channels you have to _pay_ for the BBC channels. This is ok, because its done by the government, not by a monopolistic corporation (the government _is_ a monopolistic corporation, all governments are).
This policy isn't even going cut piracy out, lots of people build their own computers, and unless microsoft thinks they can bully hard-drive manufacturers to include copies of windows on all their new hard drives at cost to the user, then they're gonna have problems.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
I used to respect them. Oh well.
if(!cool) exit(-1);
And DOS is much easier than both of those. What's your point?
The reason it's easier to install is that it has almost no hardware support.
VADER: I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further.
while we may not be able to buy a non m$ os from dell, gateway, hp and all the others, there's still nothing to stop us from going to a site like http://pricewatch.org or newegg.com and building a system from scratch. it's not that hard, especially for the slash community, and for the most part it's cheaper. the only extra thing you get when you order from dell [or the likes] is the name on the tower and the x months of support. if you can build a system from scratch, then i don't see you having any problems with support.
i know that the majority of people are not going to want the hassle and the responsibility of building their own system, let alone how to make it work. m$ will continue its shenanigans as long as people remain lazy, which is what this country is unfortunately very much about.
i think we must take a stand against corporate misbehavior and government apathy soon, otherwise we won't have a chance to fix it. more people are content being force fed corporate nonsense everyday, soon they won't doubt them at all.
IS it really about the OS or some hardware chip?
Dell looks at the bottom line, as does Gateway, Toshiba, etc. If Microsoft tells them to stop shipping PC's without an OS, they ask "when".
Let's face it, most of the people who go out and purchase computers utilize Microsoft products do so because they feel that is the only way to go.
I fail to see why people are getting nervous and acting like this is shocking or something. What exactly did we expect from Microsoft? From Dell? Did we expect Microsoft to sit back while manufacturers started toying with an alternative which they feel threatens them?
It is our job, as Open Source, and *IX users, to educate our customers, family, and friends. Tell them that there are alternatives, and support them where they may roam.
I expect another "0" for my rambling, moderators.
DISCLAIMER:
I don't believe what I write, and neither should you.
Just went to Dell's website and attempted to configure an Opti-Flex model. The only options for O/S were all M$ based. There was no "NO O/S" option available.
I suppose I could call them but I've already wasted 5 minutes on this so far...
10 MD
The problem with this is that the majority of people can't build their own computer. They don't know how. This practically forces them to buy windows, and they'll figured "hey, I pyed good money for this, i'm sure gonna use it." Or they'll buy a mac (which is less likely if they've never had one before). So this is definitely bad, even if us geeks can make our own.
if(!cool) exit(-1);
this is so great. Screw linux, why would you want to get a dell desktop for a server operating system. All you kde and gnome lamers need to get a better graphical server before linux is even considered ready for the desktop. XWindows is great if you are living in 1970.
I recently took up a job in a College in the UK. As part of the Summer upgrade schedule, I have to purchase about 30 new PCs, with operating system and Office software. The plan was to move the OS (W2K) from the old systems to the new, which I thought would be OK because the OS was purchased separately from the PCs themselves.
When I told this to the PC supplier's rep, he became very, very agitated -- to the point that he seemed so rude I nearly told him to leave. He said we couldn't move the OS from one system to another, and (furthermore) they wouldn't sell PCs without a version of Windows on them.
I checked this on a sys admin mailing list I subscribe to. He was right: MS sued a company for supplying OS-less PCs, and could have bankrupted them with the court judgement (UKP100,000 fine). That's why the rep became so agitated: he didn't want the same fate for his company.
I don't know which aspects of the law come into play here, or which part of the EULA fine-print, but at the moment I'm looking for ways to increase the use of Linux and may be able to persuade some of our users to use it. In the end, this might work in favour of alternative operating systems: contrary to what M$ seem to believe, many of their customers do not have unlimited funds and will seek alternatives.
Ok, get the government out of this! If Microsoft wants to do this, fine. The market will kick Microsoft to the curb, as long as the government stops doing things. That means NO COPYRIGHT/PATENT LAWS. Then lets see how Microsoft does.
NewScientist.com news service
An "unfixable" flaw that leaves your desktop PC open to serious abuse has been exploited in Microsoft's Windows operating system. The trick could be used by an attacker to discover your passwords, copy your files or even format your hard disk.
Chris Paget, a freelance computer security consultant based in London, revealed the exploit in a paper published on the net on Tuesday. He claims it is the first time this flaw in Windows has been exploited. Paget says he began the research after a Microsoft vice president Jim Allchin told a court in May that errors had been identified in Windows but should not be revealed for security reasons.
When a user logs on to a Windows machine, he or she is granted a certain level of privileges that governs which files you are allowed to access and what sort of operations you can perform on those files.
Paget, who goes by the hacker handle 'Foon', logged on to a system as a guest user - normally granted minimal privileges - and by exploiting the flaw managed to increase his privilege level to 'local system', the highest level possible. This gave him complete access to everything on the machine and potentially to other machines on the local network.
Security boundary
He could then perform any operation on the local machine he liked, including formatting the hard disk, creating new users and hiding "keyboard sniffer" programs to capture passwords of people subsequently using the machine. Blocking the exploit would mean rewriting the Windows core program and all the applications using it.
In a statement issued to New Scientist, Microsoft said: "Based on an exhaustive review of both the theoretical and practical impact of the proposed scenario, we believe that it does not meet Microsoft's definition of a security vulnerability."
The company argues that "the desktop is the security boundary for windows messages", so if an attacker has access to the desktop then a security breach has already occurred.
However, hackers have frequently accessed desktops in the past by exploiting other security holes, and Paget's exploit means they could cause more damage when they do. Employees of large companies might also be able to access prohibited parts of their networks.
Message flow
The flaw exposed by Paget is part of the fundamental design of the Windows operating system. It is contained within the mechanism that controls the flow of messages between different windows on the desktop. This is called the Win32 API and has remained unchanged since 1993.
Critically, the Win32 API system does not authenticate the messages, so cannot distinguish messages from malicious or legitimate sources. This allowed Paget to select a window with the highest privileges and surreptitiously embed a malicious piece of code. When executed, the code would increase his user privileges to the maximum given to that window.
But how could he run that code? Paget also found that by sending a special message, called WM_TIMER, he could cause the window to run the piece of code he had previously embedded in the window's memory.
"This is the really stupid thing that Microsoft lets you do," he says. "The fact that you can cause a window to execute a random piece of code is the key to taking control of the machine."
Microsoft says that the programmers of third party software should limit the windows in their programs to having only user privileges. However, Windows 2000 itself uses windows that have top-level privilege
...but not outright monopolistic. They're not preventing Dell from selling Non-MS machines. Only models that ship with Windows can no longer ship with anything else. And Dell has offered up replacement models that will be OS-less. So while it may seem dirty (and stupid) it's not horribly anti-competitive. You want an OS-less Dell pc? Buy a different model.
do not read this line twice.
This was mentioned a lot in the States arguments in the anti-trust suit. In fact, this is part of the provision that the Justice department put in their agreement. The "idea" is to stop piracy, since MS successfully argued that if someone buys a PC without an OS then they are guing to use a pirated or OEM version of Windows which is illegal.
Thank the incompetent Justce department for this
"this effects all of our competitors as well."
Doesnt this leave a open spot in the market for a computer manufactor how doesnt preinstall the doze at all?
Most people i know who buy Dell, Compaq or whatever, NEVER wants to pay for the OS. They always install their own, copied version. I know this is wrong, but EVERYBODY does it. The reason my granddad choosed a dell was actually because he could get it without a OS, and save money. Note that one thing these very "stupid" end-users are good at, is finding the cheapest possible machine. I'll bring out the granddad example again, he wrote down everything he could have removed from the configuration. And called me to check if they was needed, and yes, he even asked about the monitor(he caught up quickly when i started laughing though =D). People are cheap for the most part, especially when it comes to some thing that for them is nice-to-have, not need-to-have.
So, why isnt there a BIG iron supplier who only sell machines without the OS? This would mean no consulting department(no windows consulting department anyways), so how important is the consulting for the iron suppliers? I fear that profit on delivering machines are so small that the consulting/support actually is the "larger" sourse of income?
It's time the government stepped in. Is there not anyone who is being paid by Microsoft to shut up? These people are laughing at our government. Why don't they see? "We are not a monopoly", and then they do things like this. Someone needs to wake up!
This was a late post to that article but one that I think is very relative to this article and the MS open choice fraud article.
To illustrate the monopoly issue here, what would actually happen is this. Firestone would tell Ford that they have to outfit everything with firestone tires. Then Ford would put out a bid to the other manufacturers to provide a replacement for Firestone's tire. One of them would undercut Firestone, if for no other reason, than to keep them from taking over Ford's tires, and that'd be that. This is what happens in a competitive market, unlike what we see in the O/S market.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
I'm sure the sales of workstations to small business dwarf the sales of large business and Internet servers. Small business systems do not need to have the same level of sophistication or integration that large business requires.
Linux already competes well in the Internet Server market because of its cost effectiveness and flexibility coupled with the fact that you still need to hire the same level of human resources to support either a Linux based system or a Windows based system due to the equal required sophistication of both solutions. But this market segment is very small and does very little to boost public awareness.
Until public awareness is increased Microsoft can continue to require such anti-competitive clauses in its distributor licensing agreements and nobody will care; at least not enough people to provide sufficient pressure to have the clauses reversed or struck illegal.
If you want to increase Linux market share your best bet is to compete in the small business sector.
Competing in the small business market segment has the disadvantage that small business is hesitant to implement a system they are not familiar with from a marketing perspective. But the advantage of competing in the small business market is that you only have to provide a few ubiquitous tools to satisfy their needs. If you can provide
- Perfect MS Word replacement,
- Perfect MS Excel replacement,
- Perfect MS Outlook replacement,
- Perfect PeachTree and Quickbooks replacement
- File sharing
- Schedule/Calendar/Contact management.
then you can satisfy the computing needs of most small business (1-10 employees.)This does not have to be done for free. Small business would easily be willing to pay $200.00 per seat to license the above features. But they are NOT willing to license, install or use imperfect products from this list. It is simply not economical to waste their time troubleshooting and bug hunting these products. A good marketing strategy for these products to this segment would be to offer lifetime upgrade and updates. Small business is tired of hearing "You have to buy the new version" They are aware of the continuous cost this imposes upon them and the difficulty it presents in keeping their computing systems up to date. Instead Small business tends to continue their usage of applications well past the point of obsolesence or even support for those products. The result are systems that are nearly impossible to bring up to date without entirely replacing all applications.
There isn't any decent accounting package for Linux yet and the Office tools are far, far from perfect replacements for the MS office suite.
It is also necessary to provide these products in a 100% fully integrated fashion. The small business user buys the disk and clicks setup and everything is taken care of and installed ready to use. Having to deal with configurations or multi-step setups will never be accepted by them.
The payoff for providing small business with acceptable solutions is that you gain a large awareness that economical, flexible and acceptable alternatives to Microsoft exist. Then license agreements such as the one we are now dealing with simply cease to exist because their only effect will be to push more businesses to accept linux solutions.
I will never live for sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Beyond September 1st it will "H"ell Computers
If I am trapped in a difficult situation and have to take money from an unfair employer in order to eat and stay alive, am I forbidden from criticising that employer's greedy and dishonest practices, and telling others about them?
while i can see your point with respect to advertisements. i wouldnt equate not being able to play diablo ii with not being able to eat. i personally think such an analogy trivializes people who have real problems. the editors here often comment on video games they play under windows.
i like video games, and really wanted to play warcraft 3 when it came out. since it only runs on windows, i refuse to purchase it. also i've recently stopped purchasing cd's released by members of the riaa, and i'm probably going to stop watching movies for similar reasons. this is really the only thing we can do to make the corporations listen.
-- john
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Does this statement extend to other OSs preinstalled on machines? From what I can tell on the statement is that this pnly applies to No-OS PCs. What do you think?
1. In the meantime, does the Department of Justice read the newspaper?
2. What are they thinking??!!
1. Only the Washington Times.
2. They were thinking of all the money given to the Republican party by Microsoft.
photosMy Photostream
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Linux is so good, then why didn't Linux make a better deal? because it's a worse operating system
LOL.... I really hope you are a troll. Cause it is much better than another "point and click" moron.
Does this relate to the terrorattack of Sep 11 2001? Does Bush accept some bad behaviour from Microsoft as long as he knows they supply him with electronic eavesdropping?
From a European perspective that is the only option left. Any other company behaving like that would be sacrificed on any pagan altar long ago (think dotcom and world).
They can go to Dell!
I don't run Windows on any of my machines, although I occasionally work from borrowed machines, some of which are running it -- when I visit my dad's place for instance, he has a machine running some version of Windows. Before discovering Linux, my computer preference was for Macintosh machines.
:) I do like FlightGear (www.flightgear.org) and many of the small games that come with a typical Linux install (tux racer is fun, cannon smash, frozen bubble, and the addictive jezzball); I understand that Microsoft makes a good flight simulator, but I have not played it.
A few of my x86 machines (the laptops) came pre-installed with Windows, and one of them (not handy) may still have it installed on a partition. I'm too cheap to buy Windows without a compelling reason to. I have a copy of Windows 2000 (given to me as a gift) purchased in Indonesia for about USD2, and not one Microsoft has blessed, but I've never felt much of a hankering to install it anywhere.
I really don't play computer games, at least not the variety that only run on Windows, because I don't find them very interesting -- I'm a boring person
If Microsoft wants to pay for advertising, what would you like Slashdot (an advertising supported site for which the editorial staff does not select the advertisers), well, that's their right to do.
"It may not be easy to stop playing windows games, but you have other options." Heh, guess I shouldn't start, if it's so tough to stop. Of course, some games written for Windows can be played on Free operating systems using emulation, perhaps one day I'll try some more.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
lets see...
1) The story is based on an e-mail from some guy with a hotmail account
2) Why in the world would dell send something at random to this guy? (i have not heard any confirmation from dell or other slashdotters)
3) How likely is it that Dell would send an attachment when 1/2 of Dell users probably dont know how to open it?
4) Even if Microsoft did make this pointless move. why would they press such unreasonable dates such as September 1st?
Despite all the rhetoric coming out of our government about how horrible this is and how we need a return of ethic to corporations, I'll be very surprised if anything really changes in the long run. The only real change I expect to see is stock holders will change the rules for their CEO's because it isn't in their long term best interest for a CEO to over-inflate his options and bail out.
But as far as ethics in business go, there is only one ethic: make money. The system is set up to encourage a company to find the shortest path to greatest profitability, and that's the way it will likely always be. Is this bad? Depends on what you want companies to accomplish. If you want them to achieve economic growth, increasing efficiency, etc, then they are ideally groomed to do this (as our economy has demonstrated over the past decades). But don't expect any higher moral sense to come out of a company unless there is a profit motive behind it. It can happen, but the system isn't designed to encourage it.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
I missed this the first time through, because the Dell email is poorly written. But if you read the letter carefully, it's pretty clear to me that the poster of this post's parent has it right.
I think that you could argue that forcing companies to sell different models for non-OS systems is an overwhelming use of monopolistic force. The OEM price is much less, and not getting it prices your model out of the marketplace. And what hardware manufacturer have made models just for, say, an infant Be?
But the fact remains that the article doesn't say the things that most of the people here are arguing against.
When a software company can tell a hardware company how to package their products and go unquestioned, that's a sign that something is incredibly wrong with this world. I hope to god the Justice Department doesn't stand for this.
I am so relieved this is the PC architecure, and thus it is open. Open standards (something Microsoft isn't a fan of) essentially prevent a single entity from controlling a platform. Microsoft may be able to force Windows onto all Dells, but they can't touch whiteboxes. If vendors all go to windows or no computer, I can build my own PC. Bill Gates can't tell me what OS to use.
And correct me if I am wrong... but wasn't there something in one of the antitrust settlement proposals about lightening up on that very same contract agreement? I know none of the settlements are in effect yet but to me it still seems kind of braindead to go against the government in something like that.......
Hypocrisy is the 8th deadly sin.
But I see what you mean about choosing to play or not play a game because Redmond irritates you. I can imagine you're right - it hardly sounds like going without food. I don't really know the gaming world at all.
Obviously this doesn't mean that Dell is going to be selling computers only with Microsoft operating systems. Stop freaking out, people. It's just for one line of computers, not their whole company.
Obviously they are finding a workaround.
"Champagne for my real friends - and real pain for my sham friends!" http://ericblade.postalboard.com/
It's just a fact of life, anyone who has managed a support department knows the cost per call understands what I saying. Supporting Unix is expensive, the training costs, the time per call, and so on. Windows sheer volume and ability to hire people off the streets to do support make it cheaper to support. Also companies like Dell only do install support, so they have to push customers off to other sources for useability questions. Again Windows sheer volume make it easier for the masses to find someone to help them. With Linux its much harder to find another person to help and they are foreced the internet for help and that take longer and it can be cruel to newbies. This leaves customer mad at Dell for putting something other than Windows on a system. So the extra expense of dealing with Microsoft in long run is better for Dell's bottom line and customer relations.
I think the not-so-smart editors of /. were fooled by a hoax "letter" that some foaming-at-the-mouth Macintosh zealot made up.
Good editors check their sources. Bad editors get a boner over every unsubstantianed news source and print it with out question.
I should start getting my computer info from the Weekly World News. It would be more accurate.
For any orders already in that they refuse to honor should be "Keep your hardware, give me my money back, immediately"
Then go out and roll your own.
This is bullshit.
"Understand, this is neither a good nor a bad thing in the moral/ethical sense. In the world of business, there is no right and wrong in the moral sense, only "right" as in following the law and making money."
In a 'world of business' ?!?! where does that world exist ? Oh yeah RIGHT HERE WITH THE REAL WORLD, and all the REAL PEOPLE, with MORALS and ETHICS, or a lack of them. That kind of rationalization makes me ill. Defective people put profit over lives. There is plenty of room to make a 'comfortable' living without raping the land and degrading the people that live there.
The corporations have gotten so pervasive, even the schools are now teaching profit thought.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Where'd the memo come from?
Who'd they send it too?
How did 'Some System Admin' come to get it?
Who else touched it before he did?
Hey, how about some real journalism here instead of anti-MS to the 12th degree?
Walmart has Linux PCs, Fry's has Linux PCs. The memo says everyone is now back in the MS monopoly. Is MS just stupid? Do we need another anti-trust case?
-Tom
(or OEM manufacturers)
Starting with Windows XP and Office XP, OEM keys are bound to the machine they came with through a BIOS signature. The OEM discs will not install on machines that don't match the BIOS signature, and will not reactivate on machines moved to that don't contain that hardware signature.
In my experience, I had a Dell laptop with Windows 2000 Pro on it (non-OEM), and Office XP that came with the laptop (OEM). I purchased a new laptop which was essentially the same, but more modern hardware and an equivalent hard drive size which came with WinXP-Home. I transferred the contents via Ghost, blanked the harddrive, and sold the laptop to a friend (who installed his copy of Windows 98 on it). The Windows XP-Home that came with my Dell would NOT upgrade my Windows 2000 (because you can only go from Win2k to WinXP-Pro. And Office XP would not reactivate because the BIOS signatures were different (even though I uninstalled OfficeXP). So now I am DENIED use of software I PAID for (Windows XP and Office XP) only because Microsoft licensing says I can't. The friend doesn't want my Office XP, and the Windows XP won't install on his computer either. So I have 2 CD's of software worth about $500 and they're both as useful as an AOL CD!
I'm staging up to move to Linux. I will NOT go through this again. The more Microsoft tightens their grip, the more users will slip through their fingers...
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.asp? customer_id=04&keycode=6W300&order_code=PE2650
I can configure a system with NO OPERATING SYSTEM.
I hope the people at DELL sue /. for slander! Maybe even criminal charges: "Dude, you're getting a CELL!"
Actually, only 53% of Microsoft's political donations went to Republicans. Guess where the other 47% went. They're an equal-opportunity rent-seeker.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
As far as I know, all these company are supposed to sell computers without OS'es, It's just that they have to pay Microsoft for some pager applet which Microsoft refer to as an OS. And very soon they have to pay for a pager applet that the customer will have to pay rent for also. I'll never buy anything from these companies anymore. I'll stick to the cheapest parts, where I can buy three for the price of one Microsoft infected one. Why should you buy dell or anything else that is so insanely expensive, If you are going to run linux anyways it's far better to have a lot of computers configured as a cluster, which this pager applet can't do anyways. Linux doesn't have the same driver problems that Microsoft system have. ie. You can actually get a driver for both the pcmcia slot and the network card attached to it from one version of the system. I'm quite sure that my messed up hardware which want even start booting from a MS-Cd is far better of running a serious OS.
My best regards to Dell. They are just doing what they are told. Which I was told at school was something companies should avoid to survive.
-Luguber
On a similar note Dell has been configuring their laptops with the intel 830m chipset (I purchased an Inspiron 2600) so the BIOS won't play nice with Xfree86. The BIOS only allocates 1mb of video memory which isn't enough to get full screen resolution. You need a Windows specific BIOS hack from the restore CD just to get decent screen resolution. That's bad when even the WindowsXP CD can't play nice with the BIOS settings.
Here is post on Xfree86 about it.
Here is the Intel page. Notice at the bottom where they bitch at companies like Dell.
bash-2.04$
bash-2.04$yes "Don't you hate dialup connections?"| write USERNAME
Good readers would see that the letter says "effective 8/26."
But like you, I am questioning the validity of the letter. Even if it is valid, one other reader pointed out that seems to only affect one product line.
Going back to the final judgement of the original US v. MS:
It seems that MS has is getting around the terms of this judgement because it only addresses anti-competetive practices specifically directed against non-MS operating systems. This provides them with a loophole to use against systems sold without any OS.
Still, this new twist violates the spirit of the judgement and I hope someone in the DOJ will bitch slap them for this fresh display of arrogance.
I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
Seriously! I cant read it. Its blocked by a 'visual studio' ad. Im gonna havta read it in netscape...
I wont be assimilated yet you bastards!
Wheres that copy of 'moot' anyway...
...until this changes:
Dell and Linux
jason
jason
Have a good day?! Impossible! I'm at work!
They are so full of anti-microsoft VENOM that they can't think clearly.
I thought one of the stipulations of their settlement with the DOJ was that they wouldn't do that sort of thing any more.
If M$ was pressuring Dell to remove the No OS option, they should have made a public fuss about it to get this practice better known. Even if that meant losing the contract. I mean, can you see the headlines in the financial papers? "Dell loses Microsoft contract for offering alternative, competing software bundles" That'd catch a few eyes. Maybe people would start buying Dell machines without an OS whether they wanted Windoze or not, just out of spite for the evil beast.
I couldn't believe it when I read what M#@*$#Soft had done...AGAIN!! So I called up a Dell rep and brought up the /. article. I spoke with a rep in charge of small business sales. Apparently any business with less than 400 employees is SMALL to Dell! I reckon that's about 90% of ALL businesses...Instead of politely and professionaly giving some sound, logical reason why they had made this policy decision he simply, arrogantly stated "Well, we don't have any problem selling computers with Microsoft OS's installed".......
:)
Then I calmly stated that "you're going to have a lot of backlash from this decision. People wont like this. You're going to lose a lot of POENTIAL future customers because of this!"
To which he again reiterated his previous stance "Well we just wont know what we missed, will we? We don't have any trouble selling systems with Microsoft software installed"....
I suppose that this is truly a match made in HELL!
Arrogant, greedy, self righteous fucking bastards! As the owner of a small business that's about to become quite large I say "FUCK YOU DELL AND MICROSOFT!!!" My corporate policy is NEVER USE MICROSOFT OR DELL PRODUCTS! These are truly evil enterprises!
P.S. Have a lovely Open Source Day...Share your FREE as in FREEDOM Open Source Love Today
I love the way that Ashcroft and Bush say that it is in our best interest to drop the MS lawsuit and even before it is settled, Dell is getting pressure from MS carry their OS. I just hope that the judge reads this stuff or that the defense lawyers point it out.
The funny part is, that MS want's us to sell PCs with operating system and customers wants to get PCs without a preinstalled OS.
My firm is solving this thing by just adding a SuSE-Live-Eval CD to any PC that is delivered with an empty hard disk. So the customer is fine since he doesn't have to pay extra "MS taxes" and MS can't complain since we are shipping every PC with an operating system.
Con-men, Microsoft and pathetic liars have a lot in common.
... on and on. By the end of the week, nothing they have said was true. It is amazing. How they manage to make claim after claim and they are all false.
Whether something is actually true or not never enters the picture.
The test is whether enough people will be defrauded when they hear it.
But, true con-men are more intelligent. They actually need to have the con work or they could get arrested. Microsoft and pathetic liars can not help themselves.
I have known pathetic liars so bad that they use one lie to try to cover for a previous one. And, if that fails, they offer yet a third, and a forth
Microsoft is pathetic.
They lied about their having a monopoly before the judge made that ruling. And, now they lie about it again just assume some idiots have not figured it out and will be defrauded again.
There is no doubt that fraud works.
And, many Microsoft supporters will believe anything because Microsoft got their money. It is funny though. When criminals and con-men get your money, the mark usually figures out they were had but it is just too late. Microsoft supporters are charactistically not intelligent enough.
Yes, even little old ladies usually figure it out eventually.
NexuSys - Linux support by the best
"Default Redhat Linux (or whatever distribution) installation"
It would cost Dell exactly 0 dollars per computer, there's an OS installed on the system so it gets away from the MS no OS rule, and it wouldn't take any optomization on dells part, just do a basic standard install.
A person would just be able to format when they got the computer or to the office and install their OS of choice onto the system.
It sounds kind of like a hoax to me.
Microsoft was doing this kind of stuff before and told by the government not to (with the threat of being told not to again). Doesn't mean they wouldn't do it again, but that a person would not have to be very creative to come up with something like this.
Until I see a link to something on Dell's website backing this up, I'll withhold judgement. Its not like Slashdot is a pillar of the journalistic community - I doubt they asked MS's or Dell's opinion or in any way tried to find out about this from another source.
That was for the 2000 election when things were up in the air as to who would win.
Things have changed Since Ashcroft tried to hand the remaining 5% of the market to Gates.
photosMy Photostream
This is partly correct. Businesses have no primary drive toward lawful behavior, however. They obey laws (and act ethically) only in situations where it is more profitable to do so.
Often they can make more money by flouting the law--this is why they do it so much. It's not that they're evil; they're simply profoundly amoral.
I don't believe that this is the way things should be, but it's the way things are now.
--Mike
"Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Well if YOU checked it out You would find out that it IS TRUE! If you noticed that this becomes effective 8/26 you wouldn't make statements about suing /. !!!!
/. article. And there rep confirmed that it is 100% factual, as in TRUE!!!!
/.!!!
I called dell and asked if there is any truth to the
Please read my response at
They are arrogant, self-righteous bastards!
Microsoft and Ashcroft
Dell from Hell
What a bunch of A-holes
There souls to the devil
More than willing to Sell
The title, "Dell No Longer Selling Systems w/o Microsoft OS" is WRONG. As you explain later, "Dell No Longer Selling Systems w/o OS"
Why do they buckle in to Microsoft?
Why not say fine then and sell them with the price of windows clearly labelled and full details about how users can install there existing windows from their old machine on it (providing they don't use the old machine). And maybe how to use other os
Maybe in the US microsoft's you can't us this os on another machine counts? I don't know. Who does noone has the balls to find out.
Perhaps they should set up subsidurary fixed liability companies and find out
If the big boys call Microsofts bluff it will only hurt Microsoft. Perhaps they'll be more reasonable
Perhaps being shown that their bullying only hurts them, Bill might sack the management type who dream up these things
This comment is just pure speculation. There will never be a requirement that "All PCs equipped with Windows must prefixed with Win-". That would not only be stupid on the part of Microsoft, it would be stupid for anyone to go along with that. It's in all likelyhood closer to what adamjaskie described.
If he's there at all...
One Nation:
Under God
Under Allah
Under Zeus
Under Satan
OR
One Nation Indivisible
Dell says that this change affects all of their competitors... I have to compete with Dell on a daily basis for PC sales, and I will gladly sell PCs with no OS.
Dude...You're goin'to hell...
Given the tiny penetration of Linux on desktops, it would seem reasonable for Dell to not offer Linux on those systems for simple economic reasons: technical support (for which Dell is known) is less expensive if your staff doesn't have to deal with disparate OS's. They can obviously get around the contract provisions with new part designators, but the fact that they only did so for servers reflects the realities of the operating system market, not legal positions.
The news is not that Dell doesn't offer Linux on its desk/laptops, but that Dell offers alternate operating systems on their servers. Why? Because Linux has had its greatest success in servers, and thus there is significant customer demand.
So why not sell desk/laptops with no OS at all? Same issue - tech support.
If this is simply about Microsoft bullying, why would Dell offer Linux on servers, the area where Microsoft is currently making its biggest push to try to unseat Linux?
Microsoft has an effective monopoly on desktops. Regardless of how it got that way, it is now a fact that most people (including myself, an experienced 20 year Unix user) want Windows on their desktop. This is because Windows has the most applications software that normal people (and even geeks like myself) use. It is the same lockin that kept IBM's monopoly for so long.
The fact that Dell recognizes this (although they blame it on Microsoft) simply shows that they are putting their efforts on where the customers are: Microsoft OS's on desktops; Microsoft and Linux on servers. The servers may require more Linux support, but they have higher margins and more sophisticated users.
The only good weather is bad weather.
I think that everyone is mis-reading the memo. It doesn't say that Dell is prohibited from selling non-Microsoft OSes, rather it stipulates that they may not sell machines without an OS. I'm not saying that this is reasonable or that it should be legal, but it's certainly better than being prevented from selling a non-MS OS. -Kevin
Microsoft submitted falsified evidence -- and got caught. :-) so he admitted the whole testimony was written by MS lawyers.
Microsoft executives lied under oath -- and got caught.
Microsoft wrote the testimony for its "expert witnesses" -- and got caught. This one was actually quite funny. One stooge claimed that the states' demands would lead to "balkanization of windows". Problem was that he didn't know what "balkanization" means
The last gem I read is that MS lawyers quoted selectively from multiple decisions so as to misrepresent their holdings. The judge did not find that strategy persuasive.
Now, you are an attorney, tell me: why are Microsoft executives not being prosecuted for perjury?
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
So.... I buy the machine with XP and format it. I install Windows 2000 instead (which I already bought licenses for) and I am paying an extra $300 for the machine because I can't buy it with a "No OS" option?!?! I just went to the Dell site and looked for information on their "nSeries" machines that they mention in the letter -- but, I couldn't find anything. If you go look up their selections for the OptiPlex series you get a bunch of radio buttons with this choice:
"SELECT YOUR MICROSOFT OPERATING SYSTEM"
And there are nothing but XP versions listed.
Dell makes great stuff, but hardly worth the price it fetches.
I just slapped together a dual p4 xeon2.0ghz system for 2500. It has a gig of rambus, 80 gighd, DVD burner and a gforce4ti4200 something a rather.
Dell only offered Xeons in the p3 flavor, similiar setup for around 800 dollars more.
I used to be a sysadmin, I know all the service benefits dell gives (pre-imaged systems, 24hr on-site part replacement, ect) but I think if you compare the cost a network being admin'ed by dell with a sysadmin who just "makes calls to dell" all day to the cost of a network being admin'd by a sysadmin who maintains an inventory of spare parts, uses ghost or NT2k Remote installation services, and buys his/her parts from a local screwdriver shop I really do think you would see a huge difference.
Parts don't really break that often, windows does. Especially outlook. Is there really a savings to pay for that dell "protection money"?
If you're currently a sysadmin in charge of some large corporate network, speak with your dollars, not with your slashdot. Try and talk your company into standardizing on a single platform. Here let me spec out a good standard...
Nvidia video (single unified driver = less driver headaches)
Creative sound (the standard by which all follow)
3com networking
Other than the motherboards changing over the next few years you won't really need to do a lot of work to maintain these machines over the next few years. Be smart, implement home directories and tell everyone to put whatever they want backed up in there. That way you can wipe their machines without hassle.
well, thats my 0.02. Wish I had caught the article sooner.
Face it, unless you do something real this isn't going to change. Microsoft, the RIAA, and MPAA will own you like it or not. Stop complaining on websites until you calm down and forget and do something real. And I don't mean not buying CD's, oh yeah the handful of techie boy cotters are really making a dent in their profits there! All the mad programmers out there, work like a mad dog to make Linux better, CD boycotters publicly set fire to your CD's. Microsoft haters mail your Windows CD's to your congressman, to TV stations, and say you don't want them!
Email this MS article to your congressman every day, set up a cron job, whatever, do something besides complain on websites, do something REAL!
Finally, the US grandfathers didn't complain on websites, they dumped tea in the harbor, they took action. If you think what you're currently doing is working, why do we keep reading articles of M$ and companies continuing to do whatever they want?
Again I must point out that this person is another who did not read the other replies, or does not even notice that this does not become effective until 8/26...
No.
See subject line.
I think this is absolutely absurd. Microsoft is running the white house with the Republicans controlling the executive branch. I cant believe they would do this when they are admist monopoly hearings. oh i forgot, its a forgone conclusion that they will just be told to 'promise they wont do it again'.. how many promises do these guys have?
M$ is communist evil company. Bill is actually Hitler in disguise
That's what I'm buying for my clients.
Here's a link to one of their server config menus.
On the menu is Win2k, Netware and no OS. So MS doesn't have the strength to do this on servers as they do on desktops. That would be my conclusion, as they'll only do whatever they can for their own profit - consumers be damned.
. This sig unintentionally left blank. I meant to put something here, but I'm busy.
You sir, are a ninny for failing to failing to see the "8/26" date in the article.
I am being serious. I am so annoyed and upset by all of this that I am stopping here and not reading anymore comments. The generational and technological gap between those of us who understand what is happening and those in power has grown too large. I've fought the good fight for too long and don't know if I have the willpower to even bother fighting anymore.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
We all know Microsofts past with Mosaic/MSIE, JavaScript/JScript, etc... Then there are the EULAs for Win 2K SP 3 and Win XP SP1. They are making thier final moves to be THE OS & Software company. Before they would let other companies stick around so they could claim they are not a monopoly, but not anymore. You know what we must do. Its time for "Desigined for Linux" stickers on beige boxes and fewer ports of software to Windows. We can squish Windows, all we need to do is show people that they don't need Microsoft in thier life.
-Cold Drink
Microsoft better be careful, or companies will start ganging up and selling machines with Linux which technically isnt a "no-OS" machine. If MS wants to start saying "no-Linux" then they can answer to the government for anti-trust.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
A number of Microsoft employees/witnesses should be prosecuted for perjury. But, who would do it? The DOJ?
The DOJ demands that Microsoft be granted monopolies in not only browsers but only media players, instant messaging and anything else that shows up important on the internet.
Corrupt justice lawyers will not do anything unless Microsoft says so.
What was clear during the remedy hearings was that Microsoft was telling the DOJ what to say and everyone else was advising the States. Well. Who is everyone else? "Everyone else" consists of consumers and the industry as a whole.
The sad part is that the idiots at the DOJ ignored both consumers and the entire industry and just did as Microsoft demanded. And, that was after they lost the case. So, the DOJ is a real idiot. They even lied about the law in order to try to cover their corrupt positions. And, the judge noticed.
NexuSys - Linux support by the best
It does make one sick.
But, in the morning you have to get up again. So, sometimes you have to remember where you got the bad stuff.
NexuSys - Linux support by the best
Here and Here
What? Me? Worry?
Well, folks, if you don't like this, then try the following. Take your Dell computer that is 3 years old. Tell Dell that you don't accept the EULA on the security patch from MS that gives them sysadmin rights to your machine. Tell them that you want a full refund on their machine because they won't provide you with technical support for any OS other than Windows, and Windows without security patches is not what you agreed to buy, and a computer without technical support is useless. Then, when they refuse, sue them in small claims court in a state that protects consumer rights (e.g. California). In a state small claims court a consumer typically does a lot better than in a federal court.
Chances of winning might be pretty good actually, when you consider that you were not told that you must agree to give MS sysadmin rights on your computer at the time of sale, and conditioning security patches on such agreement constitutes a change in the agreement made after the sale, thus voiding the sale agreement.
I think I am going to give this a try when I get back to the US. I'll let you all know if it works.
The beauty of it is that if it threatens to put Dell out of business, they sue MS. Remember, you don't have standing to sue MS yourself over the security patch EULA, thanks to our wondrous Supreme Court and their Illinois Brick decision.
(I am really pissed at Dell for telling me everytime my dual boot system has a hardware problem visible under both OSes (which is ever since I bought it) that they won't support me unless I remove Linux and install pure Windows. Never let Dell sales folks convince your company that Dell computers are suitable for a mixed Linux and Windows environment. Avoid them like the plague for Linux.)
I agree with the build your own system sentiment, and I do build my own desktops, but I'd like to get a laptop, and building your own isn't really feasible.
Personally I would probably install a windows OS on my new laptop, but I don't like the version that the OEMs have to ship, ie I want one that I can move to a different machine if I'd like, and I want the CD.
In addition to the OS have you noticed what's happening with Dell and the other Microsoft software that they make you buy?
I'm talking about MS Office. I was configuring a laptop on the Dell site, and I had to select a Microsoft productivity package. I could pick from one of 2 Office packages, or Microsoft Works.
The cheapest Office added $180 to the cost of the laptop over Works, and you didn't even have a choice of works if you selected any laptop except the lowest end (processor and display) model!
This is so bogus. I don't need all of the crap that comes with MS Office. I particularly don't like Office XP (I'd prefer to stick with Office 97) and I am planning on trying StarOffice or equivilant for my word processing needs. I already use Eudora for email (I absolutely Hate Outlook!)
Mike
FYI - this effects all of our competitors as well
Maybe this is a dumb point, but is this email official? I've never gotten a mass email from a large company like Dell with a grammar mistake in it, no matter how minor. (shrug)
mbs
What Linux needs is a strong installation procedure. Eliminate choice for the default installation and detect and install a working driver for everything. Then if the user feels secure enough handling more complex issues allow them to install hardware specific drivers. In my limited experience of Linux installs I've always had the latter.
Also something like Wine needs to be more strongly promoted. Just yesterday I found a clear enough summary of what it does, and that alone was all I needed to get interested! The Linux community is fragmented by nature and all these brand names of the different installs, let alone the additions that you can download. Everyone in the Linux community is doing a kick ass job of coming up with great products, but now its the infighting that's killing it. Not the battle with MS. I think this is an important distinction to make.
I want to see a singular Linux front that is strongly promoted much like we see through Apple, MS, BeOS, etc. Different builds could branch out from there, but if x-user off the street wants to know more about Linux you could send them to a single location. Does that location exist now? I don't know, and that is as bad as not existing at all.
One last thing, I don't think this promotional entity should be fronted by one company (ie. IBM) as it needs to address the needs of the whole community.
I don't think its just installation issues, or market capacity, that plague Linux's popularity. I think the problem is people don't know where to start.
http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/computing/5a98.shtm l
An ad on Slashdot that links to a computer without an OS? Watch out, MS will buy OSDN and your site!!!
It seems that the market is making a choice for me. I was doubting what my next workstation would be. And its now almost going to be a Sun Blade instead of an Intel-machine. I'm running Linux on my other Sparc Station without problems so that shouldn't be any problem.
sent a copy of this to that judge, right?
Setting his threshold to 5, Sparky eliminated most of the trolls on /.
1. Purchase a Microsoft OS with each OptiPlex, Precision or Latitude system.
;)
I wonder if this means Dell will sell me *MS*-DOS 6.22...
I can't help but think about how MicroSoft is a monopoly-in-restraint-of-trade as bad as the American railroad ones of the 19th century.
In the 19th century, railroad monopolies charged people fees for shipping on competing lines. The goal was that you only do business with one rail line. Microsoft's response to BeOS is much like this one. Microsoft, like the monopolistic rail lines, coerced its customers, the OEMs, not do business with a competitor. However, instead of charging imaginary fees as punishment, MS uses sealed OEM licenses to forbid them from installing dual boot OSes.
However, I see why MicroSoft uses such tactics. If people got computers with Windows and BeOS dual boot or Windows and Mandrake Linux, people would actually realize that there's no reason to use only Windows.
BTW, although not monopolistic or evil, MS's frequent changes to the Word format is like the railroad lines' stubbornness against choosing a standard gauge.
On a personal not, this seems like it could have almost affected my situation. I recently bought a computer online from a NE Ohio computer company without an OS. I was planning on running GNU/Linux until I began studying at OSU, where I could get a legal copy of WinXP from a Microsoft club for $5. Of course, recent /. stories on EULA changes made me decide to use Win2k instead, and I bought a Like New copy through half.com. Unfortunately, Windows refuses to run because I have an "INACCESSIBLE_BOOT_DEVICE". I feel like using an illegal copy Windows if I can't get it to work.
they can always decide to offer preinstalls of redhat.. :) (with cds included of course)
So i'm reading /. in a desperate attempt to aviod writing a 5 page paper for engineering ethics class. And then i read this article, and i have a topic.
Thanks Slashdot!
Anyone who posts about bad moderation are themselves off-topic and should be moderated accordingly.
getting a Microsoft Dell.
... Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed...
Introducing the all new Dell MSX! (Microsoft suX) Customize and preload this computer with any operating system you want, as long as it isn't made by Microsoft! Redhat, Caldera, SuSe, Debain, BeOS... ANYTHING YOU WANT! Why do we do this? Because of Microsoft's bullcrap contracts with us! We must be crazy!
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world... those who understand binary and those who don't
There is a difference.
As much as we might like to hate this practice, it is common place in business. Restaurants typically sell only one soft-drink vendor line, such as Pepsi vs. Coke, in order to get the best pricing/terms on the deal. In part it's the volume that does this (if they sold both, each would sell at half the level, and they wouldn't get the biggest price break), and the salesman push to get an exclusive deal (he gets more commission).
With Microsoft it is different since they are a monopoly. The problem is the difference is overshadowed by the fact that it is a common business practice in cases where there isn't a clear cut monopoly (e.g. neither Pepsi nor Coke can be said to have a monopoly anywhere near what Microsoft has). Constructing a case against Microsoft (or even Dell) in this matter would not be easy, and would require some very smart lawyers, and not the bozos over at DOJ. But there might be a lawyer or two at each of about 9 states that might be able to work together at this. We'll see.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
My company dropped Dell for server purchases several weeks ago in favor of HPaq. My job focuses in the Microsoft arena entirely, but even so, to me this is one more reason that I am glad we've dropped Dell.
... the guy who was buying these pre-installed systems and then trying to get his money back for the OS???
If dell cannot supply you with the product you want ( = one with no microsoft ), then go buy somewhere else.
This is surely the way that business works. Supplier can't supply? Find another one....
Or make your own. PCs are only expensive LEGO(tm), but as all the connectors are different, you cant plug them in wrong!
You're an idiot. The current state of affairs in "Big Business" is the direct result of Bad Bill Clinton's brilliant administration. He was more worried about what the polls said than creating a plan to address an issue and implementing it. That, and he was always looking for a good hummer. All of the crap you are talking about transpired on Clinton's watch, not Bush's. I'm no Bush lover, but I hate Clinton and the party of bad actors that put him in office. Problem is, as bad of actors as they are, they do know how to consistently snowball about 33% of the ignorants in the US. I don't mean uneducated either, many of you morons are doctors, lawyers, etc. you just have no idea how the economy or our government actually works. Democrats don't care about the country, they care about staying in office. Look at their current politicing, pure smoke! Guess what, you're part of that 33%, loser.
It could spin a freaking teapot. Big deal.
BeOS died because it had no applications. No matter how cool BEOS was, no matter how fast it was, no matter how fast it booted, no matter how cool the files system was IT STILL HAD NO APPLICATIONS!!!!
No one, except you amiga freaks, buy an OS simply to watch it boot and to brag about how they run it.
BEOS had no apps. That is why it died.
If they really wanted to, Dell, or other companies could cancel their contracts with Microsoft and sell PCs with no Operating System or PCs with Linux. However, they know that the customer base that "wants" Windows is larger than those that want no OS or Linux. So thus, they will agree to Microsoft's wishes and keep renewing their contracts.
Why don't we hear the Mac people complaining about similar things? As far as I know, though I may be wrong, you can't purchase a Mac with no operating system on it. In fact, Apple's selling practices are more constrained than Microsoft, they just don't have the market share MSFT does.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is that companies will do what is profitable, and that is to sell Microsoft Windows on their desktops.
If you don't like the fact that Dell won't sell you a computer with no Operating System on it, then don't buy a Dell. If you don't like the fact that Microsoft is forcing Dell not to sell no OS computers, then don't buy Windows and run something else.
The majority of people complaining here are the ones who wouldn't buy a Dell in the first place, and who don't run MS software anyway.
Microsoft has a monopoly in the OS (If we define monopoly by a excessive share of the market). So what? No one mandates that you buy it. In fact, with advanced in Linux and the various windows managers and the software available, you can do virtually anything in Linux you could in Windows and just as eaisly.
Use the power of the market (or the lack of a market -- free software) to tell Microsoft you don't like what they are doing. If you are a Sys Admin, urge your company to run *NIX instead of the latest and "greatest" Windows server suite.
"We shall show mercy, but we shall not ask for it" -- Winston Churchill
It took me five (?) years from the moment I first installed RedHat 6.0 when it was brand spanking new, to where I am now remotely cvsupping the ports tree on a client's new FreeBSD server. My initial feeling with Linux (I learned later about the existence of other distro's like Slack), was daunting. I was used to MS DOS, Windows since 3.0, OS/2 and a bit of MacOS. I remember thinking "You don't scare me with no stinkin' CLI!", but I was disappointed. MS-DOS 3 came with a manual back then, Linux didn't obviously, but where was I to find documentation??
RedHat's website was no help, Altavista didn't bring me much either. I didn't even know what I was looking for, and punching "Linux documentation" into Altavista got me the LDP which was still a bit over my head. I let it rest and continued using my warezed Windows stuff. Until I started getting disgusted with warez (must have been the growing up). I got a copy of Win2K Pro for free from M$ for betatesting it. However I needed a server, since I had started a business. This had to be legal, no warez in my office! This situation forced me to consider Linux and *BSD again. In the end I chose FreeBSD because it strikes the perfect balance for me. A bare-bones system with a very streamlined ports system to install just about anything I could ever need.I bought a book: "FreeBSD Unleashed", and never looked back at Windows again! Since then I put a lot of my college friends' unconnected dorms online by sharing single cable connections through FreeBSD. From time to time I log into those routers to check on things and download patches. Nobody has ever complained.. for over 2 years.. and that's NOT what I hear from places where 5 students share cable through Win98SE with ICS!! Hands-on learning worked best for me, however at the very beginning I had literally nothing to hold onto. I remember that dreadful moment of staring at RedHat's bash prompt thinking "Now what?". It wasn't until I bought that book, that I finally got the hang of it. Why can't there be a website like this book??
An interesting fact to note here is they are not stipulating that Dell (or competitors) will not sell a system with an OS other than Microsoft -- only that they will not sell a system *without* *any* *OS*.
How many of those "NO OS" systems eventually have Windows installed on them versus the number with some alternate OS? Does anyone *know*?
Okay people its time!
We either act or shut up!
Time to push Ashcroft out of office and impeach Bush for illegal lobbying on MS's behalf..
Are we Ready? or Are we pussy?
Don't Tread on OpenSource
I played around with it for a few months, but simply couldn't think of a reason to justify actually keeping it around. Sure, it was pretty easy to mess around with, but it didn't do anything either. Its interface seemed pretty clunky (compared to both Win98 and to XFree86+Enlightenment), and there weren't really many useful programs (a few minimally-featured AIM and IRC clients, a web browser, etc., but nothing better than or even equivalent to Win/UNIX counterparts). I ended up finally deleting the partition when I ran low on hard drive space, because it just wasn't useful to have.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
It's simple, really. If you want to undermine Microsoft, pirate the hell out of their products, and direct people to the alternatives.
It's the American way to express your dissatisfaction with a company. When it's clear who's pocket your elected officials are in, you have a God-given right to revolt.
1) A bootable Linux CD and a few drops of krazy-glue on the spindle hub makes any PC a permanent Linux box.
2) Alt-S, Up Arrow, Enter, CMD, Enter, del c:\winnt\explorer.exe, Enter. bye-bye Windows.
3) Find a list of elected officials' email addresses. Send them an email describing "a new game I hope you enjoy it."
4) Linux-on-a-floppy, and a tap of the reset button.
5) Point people to OpenOffice, not MS Office.
6) Microsoft has a nice "automatic update" feature. It would be nice if we could back-engineer this to introduce an update to Linux.
7) Burn, And Share.
8) The going rate for Microsoft exploits is about 2:1
9) The Trojans knew what they were doing when they climbed inside the horse. Do you?
10) Charity overpowers Greed, and Generosity is a virtue.
Bowie J. Poag
You seem confident that overall cost savings would result from your approach.
Do you suppose there would be enough money left to spec out RAID support on the motherboards, and double up on everyone's drives? (I'm talking RAID 1 here, by the way).
After all, with the exception of laptop computers, the thing that breaks not-quite-as-often as Windows itself are the hard drives -- seems like, Dell or no dell, RAID support on workstations is a boon. Being able to swap a dead drive out during the evening after a failure, without the workstation operator noticing anything was wrong during the day, rocks.
And the only way I know of (please correct me if I'm wrong) to get hardware RAID (please note I said hardware, not software) is by spec'ing a Dell (or equivalent) server as a workstation...or building your own.
What do you think?
So let me get this strait. If a company wants to sell systems with a m$ os on it, they cant ship products without an os. why not just ship the products with a free version of linux that can be easily removed and changed, or are they not allowed to ship machines with and other os cept m$. Smells fishy!
What deal Dell made that forced this issue, especially in light of the lawsuits MS is experiencing. What makes you think that they forced anyone to do anything? Dell may have opted for this for any number of reasons including special pricing from MS, streamlining their support structure, focusing their sales, etc... Maybe they just found linux to not be that worthwhile, perhaps MS just made them a deal that they couldn't resist.
In order to take a full figure into account, you must factor in the lost revenue from spending time fixing windows problems as well. However, considering the sheer number of supporters available to do such, it is not expensive. Sure it is expensive to call the tech support at MS. However, most companies know enough to either hire or outsource administrators.
This argument can get really fanboyish, so I will simply say that Linux could learn a lesson from this. Only a fool lets their emotions get in the way of judgment on important matters. Linux has a reputation among many people for being tough to learn (hacker only _toy_), full of arrogant parroting 1337 do0dz, and overwhelmingly (and needlessly) complex in order to do tasks that on Windows or Mac, are done effortlessly. Fortunately groups like Ximian and others are working to change that. It is hard however, to fight a battle where so many of those who claim to be on your side are your enemy. Like a band of cuthroats, Linux suffers from a sheer lack of direction, discipline, logic and ethics. This does not mean that it is 'without', nor that all who support and advocate it are without those qualities, but until the workers are louder than the whiners it will continue to be a problem.
Any competitor to MS, and in fact Dell itself should do the wise thing and consider a long term strategy in response to this. While many could choose to give in under the excuse of 'we just can't afford to go against that', the reality is that if they don't try then MS will only continue to gain more grown at their expense. Wars are never won by chance and constant success, they are won by grit and determination to succeed in those times when only despair is your true ally. Even training falls to determination and morale at that point.
Remember, MS is already on rocky ground because of the sheer number of end users and customer organizations (OEM's like Dell) they have turned off. If patience and planning win out then the OEM's will come out stronger than before.
However, lets not jump to premature and naive conclusions here... Linux is not a viable solution for the desktop as is. However, like in learning a new language, it is total immersion that is toughest but best. If smaller organizations decide to promote instead various alternatives (flavors of Linux and such) to their customers along with providing sterling support (not just links to forums, but real people to help them... also ORGANIZED documents and info helps too). Where I work, the majority of our Dell purchases are for servers running distributed services. That is the best chance for BSD and Linux, however because of snotty or non-existent support and info, even die hard Unix boys are forced to turn to Windows. Why? Because rhetoric does not build networks. Linux is a vapor factory as far as real solutions are concerned. This has sadly been echoed many times and will continue to until you can quickly and easily connect the dots to create the systems you need. MS provides this up front, it matters little to the majority of decision makers if that 'solution' is corrupt, faulty and prone to cause trouble. Why, because to them the solution is still there, if not perfect while they simply hear a couple of engineers discuss Linux ideas.
Learn and grow, grow and prosper... or ignore and rot.
So call up Dell and waste a lot of time ordering the most expensive system you can find. Add every feature and option available. When it comes to closing the deal back out because of the no NO-OS option. Let them know they're losing a lot of money on this because of it.
...or not...
Then call up all your friends and get them to do the exact same thing. When word starts getting around about all the $5k systems they ALMOST sold it might start to make some PHBs think.
This is precisely why the last 8-9 boxes we have purchased were "white boxes".
just make sure to call microsoft tech support whenever you're feeling bored and have them run you through an installation on an imaginary machine. start a "how to contact microsoft for anything you ever wanted to know" information campaign.
- tensions in our lives that are attacking our minds, unite themselves together to make our consciousness blind - op'ivy
Yes, I don't have to buy Dell, but there are good reasons. For one, they are just down the street.
'SBEMAIL!' is better than a goat!!
I like linux because it doesn't crash and it's the best system to run the internet on.
I like windows because there are better games.
I like mac because there are better audio/art applications.
i have 3 computers.
BIOTCH
Well, I guess this would have been another 2.5 billion dollars in the treasury if the DOJ and the judge had got it right. Maybe CKK will eventually get to hitting Bill where it hurts.
I bought a $2100 Inspiron Laptop on August 5th. I spoke to the sales drone, asked to not be charged for Windows. She said they no longer sold OS-less systems. She even checked with her manager, sure enough she came back and told me they no longer offered this option. Now, this was a system for someone else who is in a rush to get it, so I did not want to get into a whole argument.
But right after hanging up I felt raped. And now I find out Dell will still sell OS-less sytems up until kate August! Might as well bend me over a sink!
What do you guys suggest I do. Demand a discount? How much? Demand that they take out the OS? I can't really cancel the order as the person is leaving the country before the end of the month.
is it legal to sell the os if you are not going to use it? they usually ship with the install disks, so just fdisk, then sell the os and the license to the guy down the street.
Dell only offered Xeons in the p3 flavor, similiar setup for around 800 dollars more.
The Precision 530 line, with dual P4 Xeons, has been available for a while. A similar configuration is available for about $2,800. If you want a RDRAM system from Dell, you may want to wait for a "quadruple your memory" sale, like they have now.
Save yourself a load of $ and avoid being hit with a 80% Microsoft Tax (XP/2000 spyware) Just think how many times have you paid for MIMESWEEP.EXE?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
And for all the other vendors who don't sell MicroSquish products at all.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I think the thing that has broken in our current market system in the US is the notion of ENLIGHTENED self-interest. The problem is that if one thinks in the short term, seeking the greatest profit right now, then all sorts of things get messed up. Why worry about the environment, that's for somebody to deal with 20 years from now? Why worry about education, that's the government's job and by the time the students now are grown up and looking for jobs it's not going to be your problem finding skilled laborers then.
Our current system rewards those who are taking stupid risks for short term and fleeting finanicial gains. It needs to be changed so that CEO's have more vested interest in the long term health of a company and the related social factors that go into it. They need to be put in a position that understands that having long-term loyalty by employees is beneficial to the company rather than treating them like mercenaries to be brought on only when needed and thrown away at a whim.
Self-interest is fine, if one is taking the bigger picture into account.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
I had an interesting experience just this morning. I have been a firm believer in a few things:
- Proprietary UNIX operating environments like Solaris and AIX are, in all aspects, the best platform for back office services
... i.e. data warehousing, CRM, etc.
- Linux based operating environments are the best platform for front tier platforms like web servers, app servers, file & print, etc. (especially using SAMBA, RH puts Win2K to shame!)
- Windows, especially Win2K (XP isn't worth the $$$ to upgrade) is the best choice for the typical office user and home user.
But, I've been wanting to try out Linux on a PC and see how much it's improved at the consumer level. So, I installed RedHat 7.3 on my IBM T20 laptop. I've had this laptop for nearly 2 years. I have a CD I built with all necessary Windows 2000 drivers on it. The machine came with Win98 and I didn't feel like getting IBM's Win2K, so I just used a generic Win2K installation that I own. I had to download about 20 IBM specific drivers and install them before the laptop worked "right". It functioned, but not well.So, I downloaded RH 7.3 iso's from NASA (blazing download speeds, over 1.7 Mbps) and burned the install CD's. I then popped CD #1 in my laptop and rebooted. In less than 1 hour my laptop was a functional dual-boot machine. I let RedHat make all the install decisions, rather than customizing like I would do on a server. I allowed GRUB to be my boot loader. It boots both Win2K and RH beautifully, no issues. RH runs great AND I didn't have to download one single driver to get my system to work with Linux. Win2K doesn't include support for my 2 year old network card, so I have to have that driver downloaded before attempting a Win2K install on this laptop, no such problem with RH.
I'm a believer now. RH 7.3 is definitely ready for the average end user's PC. The installation is no more difficult than Windows, if you set it to boot to graphical logon mode life is easy. And once in Gnome (or KDE) all the tools that a typical end user might want are there. With about the same amount of effort that it takes to install Office XP that same user can download, install and use Open Office (that took me about 30 minutes).
Best of all, I didn't have to use knowledge gained in 10 years of implementing and administering UNIX servers. It was pretty damn easy. To get the same easy installation with Win2K on a laptop I need to get the OEM version of Win2K appropriate to my laptop OR I can just get the generic RH distro. No issues, no worries, no compatibility problems.
Bottom line, MS OS is no longer superior in the consumer market based on what I just saw, and the Linux price is hard to beat. For the user who doesn't want to deal with creating their own CD's they can pick up the boxed set of RH for a low price down at Best Buy. Within an hour they can have a functioning system that is equal to Windows. The only thing keeping it from going mainstream is games. Come on game developers. Get those games running on Linux and MS is in big trouble.
In my universe I'm perfectly normal, it's not my fault you don't live in my universe.
Dump that Linux.
Well, I for one think that the DOJ deserves a standing ovation, I mean, think of how much better it would have been for us all if we had had them there for us during the Standard Oil break up and such. Someone needs to post their e-mail or fax so that we can properly display our appreciation for these triumphs in the lawmaking arena.
I'm not sure you're having the same problems i've had. I've tried to install win2k for at least 4 times. Sometimes it would screw up while formatting an NTFS partition. However, the last time I tried installing win2k, it installed but wouldn't boot.
I've been getting advice from the IT guy at the high school from which I just graduating / for whom I work until going to college. One thing he told me to do was to get a disk diagnosis tool from the hard drive manufacturer (mine was Western Digital) and run it from a boot floppy made on another Windows machine.
I can't remember the most recent advice he gave me. It was something along the lines of running FDISK from a windows boot floppy, copying the i386 folder from the windows cd to the hard drive, and running the installer off the hard drive. I was going to talk to the IT guy again before I actually tried it.
BTW, this is the first computer I've actually owned. The computers I've used in the past (and the one I'm using now) are owned by my parents, who are afraid to let me mess with hardware or put on another OS. In other words, I'm a newbie when it comes to getting computers to work (but not to operating them).
Please send further responses via e-mail.
Why do you think Microsoft has its own media codecs nowadays?
I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
The fact that the OEMs may have a choice to put on a different operating system is not the point. The consumer should have the choice to buy a computer and any operating system they want--without paying any M$ tax.
Back around 1996 or so, I wanted to buy a fully assembled computer, and I wanted to put OS/2 on it. I searched everywhere. Not only did all the stores not want to sell computers with OS/2, they also said they wouldn't sell me a system unless I bought one with either Win95 or DOS/Win3.11. There was no free market, because I did not have any choice but to buy a M$ system! This type of situation is the reason anti-trust laws were made.
here and here.
...now we have to figure out how to fix it. None of the OEMs like MS's restrictive licensing, but they know that even if they all got together and refused to accept the new terms Microsoft would just stop giving them all OEM discounts. Like one of the posters above said: Microsoft will suffer minutely decreased sales from the increased price, but the OEMs' margins will go from razor thin to nearly invisible. None of them want to risk it because they don't have another OS to fall back on if Microsoft doesn't accept their terms.
What we need to do is make sure there is another OS that's as good on the desktop as Windows. That way OEMs have choice and Microsoft has competition.
This is a hoax link. There's no such thing at Dell. What a fraud slashdotters are turning out to be.
I doubt MS's main reason for requiring Dell customers to buy MS Windows has much to do with Linux. More likely they've found a significant number of people purchasing PCs w/o an OS go on to pirate Windows and install it. If you don't like the policy, stop buying Dell. Quit whining to the government every time you don't like something in the business world. Instead vote with your dollars. If enough people stop buying Dell machines because of the policy, they'll change it.
Vote for Pedro
For Christ sake's people -build your own computer. Take one Aopen or LianLi case, stick in an Asus, Epox, Abit etc mobo and an Athlon or P4 depending on what mobo you got, get some RAM, a vid card, a NIC, a hard drive, an optical drive or two, maybe even a floppy drive and then hook some KVM up to it. That's what I've been doing for the last 6 years - never had to worry about what the big fucked-up computer companies are doing OS-wise. I make my own clone army!
gav
Just call (and write) Dell and tell them that you don't want to abide by and can not agree to the MS OS license and ask to return the OS to Dell. Then ask them for your refund.
- Tjp
I am in wallow with my inner money grubbing capitalistic pig. ... Oink!
I never buy PC's anyway, (I build mine from Fry's)
Just boycott Dell, and anybody else that caves in to the worlds richest crook!
Remember, WalMart sells machines with Mandrake Pre-installed!
I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
Microsoft only has about 35 billion dollars, and I believe their GDP is greater than that of Bolivia, or Uruaguay or something.
Looking at this logically, they have all this money and favorable public support so there is no Political solution to the problem. People like Microsoft.
So, a small number of us hate them, because we choose to not run windows. Welp, sorry to say, this IS a democracy (ok, *cough*) and the majority has spoken. Until the majority gives a fuck, nothing will change. You can lobby congress about the blah blah blah and this and that, but the bottom line is that M$ makes money for America, so it is a Good Thing. It puts money into the pockets of the shrinkwrapper at the factory and the needy Senator alike.
But yes, it goes beyond frustration. Having to pay for something you don't use. Like, dammit, I had to pay for the spare tire in my car, but I've never had to use it. That's bullshit, I should never have to pay for it unless I use it.
Guess what, you still have a choice. DON'T BUY DELL! You can get PC's without OS's on them from other manufacturers. Yes, the manufacturers will probably be hurt by MS's licensing requirements. SO WHAT! Buy from a open source only builder. Or build yourself. Or hire some college student to build for you for 10/hr!
Or if it really has you that worked up, buy a gun, and shoot yourself, because MS isn't going away, the bastards.
Cool! Amazing Toys.
It says Dell can't sell a computer with "NO OS". What prevents Dell from simply making a floppyfw option? i.e. where does it say it has to me a MS operating system?
Just go to a small, local PC shop and have your own system custom built sans Windows et al. You may be paying a tiny bit more, but at least you won't be giving your money to MS, and that is a good feeling. I have gone to a small shop, which is also a hard core MS builder (certificates, the whole shot, hopefully you get the idea...) and have purchased a 686-500 with Windows 98, and I asked the OS be removed. Not a problem, they said. They knocked off a few bucks off the price and it is now humming along happily with Rehat 7.1. Small shops really are the sinew of the computer industry, and if you REALLY want to screw over MS, you probably need to shop there instead of Best Buy or whoever sells Dells, etc..., and tell others to do the same as well The service is better anyway and whomever they hire to sell at least has some idea of what you want.
Dawn of the Dead
The "greed is good" ethic needs to be erradicated.
The problem is that the definition of "greed" is entirely subjective. How much property can I desire before I am deemed "greedy"?
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
i just wanna buy a PC!
i dont wanna buy any OS!
Exactly! I wanted you to address specifically the claim that "the kernel source is there for technical support"? WTF? Yeah I'm sure it's there in the millions of lines of code--I'll just spend a few years getting to know it so I can disable the screensaver. It's this snooty mentality that is making me think of going to Apple instead of Linux in my purchase.
Doesnt matter anyway. Only a fool buys a pre-built box.
Alright, how come X apps take like 10 years to load, especially the web browsers? How come I can see Ximian Evolution drawing graphics on the screen everytime I change folders while windows xp on the same machine doesn't have that problem? I was talking about linux on the desktop for the common user not developers, perhaps it's fine for you having multiple gnome terms open coding in text mode... but I want 3d graphics, and a quick user interface. I get that with Windows XP and BeOS but not linux and X. Somehow Be (when they were around) made a unix OS that drew graphics on the screen really fast. Even MacOSX looks good on the desktop and responds well on the desktop. I want to see a linux distro incorporate these features into X... IF you know off hand of some other 3rd party X servers that can fulfill my fantasies then please tell me. XFree86 is just way to slow for me. I wasn't bashing gnome I just called you all gnome lamers... There has to be a quicker Graphical server for linux or people will be using the command prompt for the rest of their lives. Maybe that's fine for software engineers but not for the common lay person who just wants to watch streaming video and listen to streaming audio. Where are these apps? Sure there is an ancient real player out and maybe xmms does the job but as far as entertainment and speed go X just sucks.
There are a few things about dell you need to know.
I was one of the suckers that work for them and the man, He is as stupid as rain is wet. He does not care about the persons making him money. When I worked for dell the told me that i could be let go for just looking at them wrong. So i was always in fear of not having a job the next day.
The Mans' idea of doing his job his to change things on a day to day basis. Insiders like to call it "At the speed of Dell". Also our tools are flawed. Most of the data is old and outdated and not steamlined enough to make it worth looking up anything.
I can't say too much more without getting in trouble but like I said this whole ms scratch your back and we will scratch yours has got to stop.
Also look soon in the Nashville area for more out of work dell techs and sales reps.
P.S. The Nashville AO-1 Campus is the largest Call center for dell... Flagship out my ass.
Isn't the solution fairly simple? I was under the impression that Dell will custom build your PC for you? Why not just ask them to remove the hard disk? I may be missing something here since the last pre-built pc I bought was in the mid-eighties. What's next, you won't be able to buy a hard disk without an OS? Between this and Hollywood/RIAA, it might be a good time to stock pile hard disks and burners and other parts for the coming PC nuclear winter! -CB
It's pretty easy to explain what this entails and why this is happening - I'll make a bet that the XP installs that Dell ships after the cutoff date won't need to be 'activated' through Microsoft, but will recognize the machine and bios as a 'licensed platform'. This effectively means that the OS license is built into the machine - so so Microsoft won't let them ship them without paying Microsoft.
Ok, so maybe Dell will make a few machines ('n-series') that don't run Windows - but they're now a completely different machine. The previous court order stating that Microsoft cannot charge for every machine sold (regardless of OS) has now been circumvented.
That's enough of a step backwards to behaviour already found to be illegal on it's own, but this seems to be the first step towards making manufacturers have to distinguish "Microsoft ready' machines from OS agnostic machines.
A few more steps like this, differentiating Microsoft machines from the others, and it's a sure bet that the commodity hardware - 'Microsoft OS ready' machines - are going to be the much vaunted 'Trusted platform' - complete with a bios that will REFUSE to boot anything except a Microsoft OS.
Yes, I'm paranoid about Microsoft's intentions. but I suspect that I'm not being paranoid enough.
Liquor
Sanity is a highly overrated commodity.
Well isn't that wat a monopoly is.
The ability yo dictate 'your' price on the market regardless of what people 'want' to pay.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
when I've had problems like this before it has always been bad/cheap RAM that corrupts data on its way to the hard drive... but that might just be me
... to see that Microsoft has seen the error of its ways and is working to correct the unacceptable behaviour of the past.
sniff, sniff... Something smells bad in here...
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Lets face it, they are not going to do this unless forced. The Linux market is too small to be significant - most of us who buy pre-built systems probably put up with donating some cash to Microsoft for software we do not use.
There were quite a few mail order compaines that doen the same thing
WalMart sells edited CD's, and now also sells the computers, if preferred, without MS OS's, so even IF MS finds a way to protect all media (like they did with wmv that has expiration dates), the non-MS OS's can always continue the power of the people. So all 14 year olds can download mp3's everywhere and listen to the original bad word lyrics anyway! Eat that, DELL! :P
so how about dell? tell me that they can't object/resist MS's strong-arming. i'm sure in their corporate agreements, michael dell did not decide to spread dell's legs for microsoft, and i'm quite sure he isn't intent on helping microsoft maintain a pc monopoly, when he will lose business by removing that option.
Need a PC for Linux/BeOS/BSD/DOS ? Build your own. You'll save a lot of money and not supporting these companies that bend over for Microsoft every time they change their licences.
:-)
Me? Well, I think I'll stick with my Macs
Me, I'll stick with my homebrew boxen, thankj00. =^^=
This sig no verb.
Look at it this way: If Soft didn't encourage the volume demand for PC's, the Internet would still be an academic curiosity and Linux wouldn't exist. Can Soft stop me from running Linux on any of my machines? Obviously not, it takes me about a minute to switch disks, so how exactly does that make Soft a monopoly? "But what about IE?" Never stopped me from downloading the free version of Netscape.
FWIW, my guess is that eBay gets a call from the DOJ people in a few years. If eBay is smart, the attys are working on a response today.
What's that flaming thing heading this way?!?
Imagine how much harder physics would be if electrons had feelings! -Feynman, maybe
So I buy a Dell. I reformat the drive and install Linux. yes LINUX. I crack the Win-whatever CD in half, never use it, and I'm happy with a Dell running Linux. Or Be. Or any other non-Microsoft OS. Yes, ANY non Microsoft OS!!!
I'd have a good box. I know Linux. I admin it well. If the hardware breaks, I call Dell. So friggin' what. When I take posession, its MY box. Not Dell's.
If I want a Dell, MS will not refund Win-whatever and I'm cool with that, so what.
Dude, I'm running Linux on a Dell. Kiss my ass.
INSERT INTO comment VALUE('Doh!') WHERE user='you';
Bill Parish says:
"One has to wonder how hard working tax paying voters in these Senators' and Representatives' Districts would feel if they knew this amazing fact. Perhaps Bill Clinton himself does not realize that Microsoft now pays no federal income tax. Of course the company has never paid a dividend to shareholders either. That is tough to do when you have 6 billion shares outstanding, including 800 million still owed to employees."
taken from here.
THATS evil. If its a lie, then its pretty stupid. Either way, something smells foul.
It just out Bill Gates is Hitler and MS is nazi company
ms has no monopoly, please read some books about that, about economics and stuff, cuz' they really do not have a monopoly.. on paper, o'course :p
and win XP rulez, btw, I used it myself for some time now, and it really gives me satisfaction..
tomaat
Actually we have 2 OS X servers, and they ROCK. We mirrored 2 sets of drives in 7 seconds, set up DHCP in a few seconds, AND there are no licensing fees - now why do people but NT servers again? And rdesktop (remote desktop access to a Win2000 server) works very nicely.
We have 21 servers (yes were pretty small) and we are down to only 6 NT boxes, and we only have them because of the business apps that run on them. Soooo....
Screw M$!!!!!!!!!! And up yours with your Licensing 6 heist!!!! No more CALS!!!!
Ok the beast will not let dell (or others?) sell a PC without a windoze OS.
Thats got to be illegal, what does the anti-competitive people say about that one?
When the best gets away with this crap, all us users that do not want windoze, have to start bombarding Dell/M$ etc with refund requests.
I am going to be getting a new laptop from IBM soon, and will while still in the store erase the HDD without starting windoze, in front of the sales persons. Then demand a refund.
This is what happens when the government has no balls and doesn't absoloutly slam a company for breaking laws.
Microsoft knows, because it has been proven, that it can get away with breaking these laws, and in the end come out WAY ahead.
Thanks a lot, US government. Fucktards.
-- Note: If you don't agree with me, don't bother replying. I won't read it.
True, they were better when they were expensive and unpopular. However, now that neither of these are true, they're going down the same road as every other garbage OEM desktop manufacturer.
They've already started with the proprietary crap (proprietary motherboard + proprietary power supply = can't upgrade either one seperately). I'm sure it won't be long before they start putting the BIOS on the hard disk, or something equally stupid.
Honestly, if you're at all serious about computers, pick up a good PC hardware book and build your own. Even if you don't do it right the first time and make your mistakes, the knowledge gained is more than worth it.
You miss the point. They're TRYING to force upgrades, and don't want easy compatibility. How else can they keep their revenue growing faster than any of their customers'?
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
There is a good argument to purchase computers without any OS and then pay Microsoft for a Windows license so that the license you own obligates Microsoft for support, not an OEM. Guess that option will now be limited only to custom built systems now.
I find this news very disturbing given the recent news that Microsoft was implementing some of the terms of the DOJ settlement prior to being forced. I continue to view this as a PR "good faith gesture" to try to sway judgement in the pending case with the holdout states. Hopefully the judge will keep pure objectivity and not be influenced by these moves.
This has nothing to do with piracy. They are telling Dell that they must ship every PC with windows or MS will put them out of business by raising the price of Windows for Dell and keeping it low for everyone else. This is classic Monopoly behavior. Dell is dependent on MS, so MS feels it can do whatever the hell it likes and Dell will just take it. Guess what thats exactly how things work under Communism not under democracy. We are a democratic capitalist state, not just a capitalist state. Dell has rights to. Its their hardware they can ship it however they like as long as it doesnt kill anyone. Most people buying PCs with no OS are large corporations or Universities who buy their own licenses to windows or who run Linux. Most personnal linux users simply build their own machines. Microsoft want to rip off license holders by making them pay twice for windows, crush the linux movement before firms like Dell really embrace it and ensure their dominance vertically over the PC industry. That is why they are a monopoly and need to be stopped.
What effect would a few hundred complaints to the Better Business Bureau about not being able to get a refund when it was promised?
At least we are not warmongering, fascist,
fuckbodies with bloated heads, little skinny,necks, and tiny little ankles::you f**cking tick.
Why sell a Dell without an OS? Why not pre install Linux? Then it would not be OS-less!
.
Or is Linux not an OS?
-chuckbag
Doesn't this piss you off? You've just PAID for a product to throw it in the trash!!! Microsoft now earns revenue on unwanted products! What other company on the face of the planet makes money on unwanted products that are purchased and thrown right into the trash?????
There is something very wrong with this.
-ted
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Yes, many in the Slashdot community lie to themselves and claim to be MS-free. Until they fire up a game, or want to chat, or need to interface to office email.
MACINTOSH users are MS-Free if we want to be . We HAVE that luxury, and so far we've had veryl ittle to NONE of the problems PC users have with MS and the crises they create.
And now, thanks to Mac OS X, we can be UNIX guys too!
What in the world is TAKING you people SO LONG to see the OBVIOUS?!
I know of a few people out there who run diskless machines....you know...network boot images. Do these people still have to buy a Microsoft OS even though their machines are physically incapable of hosting the OS?
-ted
The sysdiff program has the "-m" option when reapplying differences to a system. It is required. That's right a required option! What does "-m" stand for? Manditory. "-m" is the manditory option !!!
Only from Micros~1...
This issue with Dell is only another case of Micros~1 presenting an option to the consumer.
Just another manditory option...
I've had problems with this. It was solved by not installing the OS with my cdrw drive. Try booting the cdrom from a regular drive... This worked on two computers.
Good luck
help fill in hidden movie endings @ End of the Credits
YHBT.YHL.HAND.
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
Darth himself: http://www.tsr.org/StarWars/multimedia/wavs/alter. wav
"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
You mean if you want to buy a laptop, you're now FORCED to buy not only the hardware and the OS, but also the Office package?? Blech!!
The equivalent would be if when you buy a car (the laptop), you're also forced to buy not only insurance from the carrier of the car dealer's choice (that's the OS, choice of one), but also a travel trailer whether you need it or not (that's Office). Bogus hardly begins to cover it!!
It strikes me that going after M$ as an abusive monopoly may be doing it all wrong. Might it be better to go after them from a standpoint of contract law?? (Pursuing it from a POV of the unenforceability of unreasonble contracts, etc.)
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
one of the reasons MS isn't allowing the sale of a NO-OS system is to stop piracy. That way people have to buyt the OS rather than installing a pirated version. Or says my local comp retailer
These days it seems like the hardware is pretty reliable. My (limited) experience with computers running Microsoft products is that most of the complaints and help desk calls are related to software or OS issues.
I wonder if there would be a profit advantage for a company like Dell to ditch Microsoft in favor of their own OS. If it were me I would make my own version of Linux (just to grab something that's out there and working for a head start) and make a distro for my hardware that is rock solid. Then my company would be 100% responsible for what you purchase from us. The way it is now I'll bet that a lot of customer service calls or product returns that Dell, Gateway, Compaq/HP, etc get are directly related to flaws in Microsofts products.
In a way it would be similar to buying an Apple with Mac on it. Apple knows the hardware and has written the OS for it, they are responsible for the whole package in house. The other companies could do similar things with Linux or *BSD.
After all, it looks like that's where Microsoft is heading. The X box is just a start, maybe a proof of concept for them. Don't be too shocked when you see them selling a package of hardware, OS, office suite and games. Dude, they're gonna own Dell.
. Quit playing Monopoly with Bill. Switch to one of many non-Microsoft products today.
A discount that you get for playing along nicely is a surcharge for not playing along nicely. I suppose you believe your insurance company offers "discounts" for accident-free driving and that your grocer offers "discounts" for your demographic information, too.
I preface this with the fact I hate everything about MSFT, but I can't let stand such blatant bs as has been posted. First off get your SEC forms straight. 10K is the annual filing, 10Q is the quaterly filing. Second, from the 10K of Sept. 2001:
And from the income statement
Provision for Income Taxes 4,854 (mios) Go read the whole thing on Edgar
"So, would you like your copy of LEKA on a CD or floppy?"
The ______ Agenda
I fail to see why this is even big news. If you want a computer without MS OS, obviously you won't be getting a Dell. Simple. Buy a MB/CPU combo, HD, vid card, etc and install whatever the hell you want for cheaper anyway.
There IS something wrong with hurting other people in order to get "stuff", and that's what capitalism has so far failed to address.
Out of the frying pan and into the fire with you. Here we find that the definition of "hurting other people," like the definition of "greed," is also subjective. What actions, precisely, does "hurting" another person include? Just physical pain? What about mental pain? What about defamation of character? What about loss of image? Anyone can claim that any of these can "hurt another person."
How about loss of property? Then again, what defines "property"? Just physical property? What about intellecutal property? And how about emotional property ("You stole my boyfriend!") Anyone can claim that any of these "hurt another person."
You claim that capitalism has failed to address a problem, but it seems to me that the problem is one of your own invention.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
This is not the first time Dell gets into this kind of issue with the same outcome. I personally don't buy Dell, plus I don't recommend them to my customers. Another big Corp with a fatso on top trying to be the richest or second richest man in the world. I'm personally not going to help him, what about you?
Sorry, but that really was a silly question.
Fact - you can't sue a company for refusing to sell you something (or providing you service). If they refuse to deal with you, you can only go to the competition.
Fact - The competition is also doing the same thing.
Fact - You are locked out. You cannot buy a machine without paying financial tribute to Microsoft.
In any other field/industry (telecom anyone?), this would instantly lead to class action suits.
So how would you go about "generating" a class action suit?
Here's the how-to:
Pre-requisites:
First, get yourself a class-action compatible lawyer. Don't worry about costs - you will incur none. Any law firm worth its salt will recognise the publicity value of this action.
Coordinate with people across the country, and make sure that they have a legal representative with them when you do the following:
Action:
1. On a pre-decided day (post Sep 1 - if that date applies to Dell, it will probably apply to all others aswell), have many individuals attempt to buy a PC without an OS from Dell, IBM, HP/Compaq, etc. Make sure that these are *individuals*, not *groups* - groups make bad class-action initiators, groups of individuals have the under-dog advantage, and besides, groups may put the "target" on alert (witness the anti-Microsoft tax day that effectively achieved *nothing*).
2. Make sure *everything* is documented (in writing whereever possible, witnessed by a legal rep if on the phone or in a shop).
3. Collate the unsuccessful experiences of *all* these inidividuals, cataloging experience with each computer company to show:
a. Policy within the company in question
b. The big picture - that this is an industry-wide phenomenon.
At all times, keep in mind that the computer companies are as much victims as you are - keep that in mind.
That's it. Let the lawyers take it from there. This is the stuff their wet dreams are made up of. Just make sure that thelaw firm gets plenty of publicity to:
a. Encourage them to keep going
b. Discourage them from backing out (either because they turn chicken or because the seniorpartners mysteriously start driving fancy cars).
Remember this - like the cases against the tobacco industry, there is valid evidence there that what is happening is not good for citizens of your country. It will be a long battle, but with enough evidence out there, vote-dependant Government officials will begin to see the light, especially when they start losing elections. With that danger, they will clamour to bring this matter to justice, i.e. into court.
And once in court facing the *people* (instead of purchasable commodities like senators), there is very little chance of victory for Microsoft (or anyone else who tries stunts like this).
You aren't remembered for doing what is expected of you
concerning the Windows OS:
o pt ix_gx240.htm
"Operating system software runs the basic functions of a PC. It controls the user interface, instructs the PC on how to interact with internal and external peripherals, and handles networking with other computers. Dell offers several versions of Microsoft® Windows® operating systems to meet the needs of different users.
It's important to have the appropriate Microsoft Windows operating system factory-installed on your new DellTM system. That way, you are assured that the components and drivers are tested for compatibility and installed correctly. Set-up is minimal - you just boot up and go."
So, they're selling "assurance" that everything works. Sounds like more FUD to me, but people buy into it regularly.
See here and click on "Learn more" about Windows OS:
http://www.dell.com/us/en/bsd/products/minicat_
All of us must have seen Dell's advertising, "Only you know what kind of computer you like", "Only you know what's good for you" and so on. I knew they were lying when I tried to tailorbuild a computer on their website a few months ago and it wasn't possible not to include a MS OS.
I sent their sales manager an email in March asking why and he replied that they had an agreement with MS to include their OS in all computers shipped. This is ofcourse monopoly power but it is also impractical: I have already paid for Windows 98 and Windows ME, now when I buy a new computer I must pay for a new license again.
- Lada (Zhiguli) - mid class car for mid class people
- Volga - top class for govt and communist officials
- Zaporozhets - small class for poor people (proletariat)
The monopolism came in a different way: the price was not varied, some one in govt decided how many cars to make, same professional position had the same salary etc and so on.And the worst part of course was that people did not have any choce to vote on govt elections.
When microsoft will tell California govt what to buy - that would be a sort of Soviet United States of America :)
I wonder can America finish out that pro-soviet company without any revolutions (well, recessions) or each time the death of sovietisms brings lots of troubles :(
Despite such practices Linux is upcoing, at least in Wal*Mart. Microsoft is not the only reason of its own monopoly. Companies like Dell help a lot. Even potential competitors. AOL for a while kept Netscape killed and delivered AOL clients with IE. IBM only recently started to support Linux. Sun released JDK for Windows in much better quality than for Linux. Apple for awhile ignored Linux.
Uhh....don't buy a Dell?
This message brought to you by the Council of People Who Are Sick of Seeing More People.
Go take yout Zoloft - it's wearing-off.
(not that i believe this letter; at most, it's an overly creative low-level salesperson)
I am a direct competitor of Dell. I sell x86 workstations and servers, as well as service and installation contracts. My prices are lower than Dell's too. The machines are higher quality too. I will custom build them to your specifications. I sell OEM equipement and computers with Windows or Linux installed. You can also purchase a complete or barebones system with no operating system.
Support your local independent OEM.
>> this effects all of our competitors as well.
:P
I thought they proof read official correspondance. Must be a troll... office XP catches the mistake.
Not necessarily. The corporate officer's duty is defined by the corporation's charter, and these can and sometimes do specify, for example, that the officer's duty includes maximising benefits to the community at large. As far as I know, there is no law which restricts a publicly traded company from including long-term benefit to the community in its charter.
The charter of the company I work for (Robert Bosch Corporation) is a great example, though it isn't a publicly traded company. Besides requiring that directors act both legally and ethically, the charter specifies that a large portion of the company's earnings must be funneled back into the long-term development of the business, and a further large chunk must be funneled back into a wide variety of charities and hospitable foundations, before any distribution to the stockholders takes place.
And before anyone says that a company which doesn't put profit first and foremost can't compete in the marketplace, I suggest you examine the financial profile of the Bosch Group. It's one of the largest and most successful corporations in the world.
I tried to get a refund on w98 that came on my laptop. The stupid woman at Dell said "Oh Ive never heard of anyone not wanting Windows" "Oh, you cant do that". After months of complaining and writing, I got nowhere. Its simple, dont buy Dell, they just dont give a fuck
I do intend to do my best to vote Bush out. Since I'm not a member of Congress, impeaching him is a bit beyond my powers at the moment, but you go right on ahead, tiger.
Take our little company for instance. We have a five license deal from Microsoft, but we are not using all. What if we want a laptop, should we pay for Windows XP Home (which btw is complete crap, only the pro version is usable)? We have a license for a fulling working OS from Microsoft, yet we do have to pay for some complete crap that will be thrown away before a singly byte of it is executed.
This is a rip off for sure. The whole "then don't buy it" is complete bollocks after all, and I think the slashdot crew is agreeing. And I am not a Microsoft hater even.
This is what Microsoft should be prosecuted for, instead of some moaning from Netrape and Sun (Java is completely wrong for Windows, live with it. Linux as well is better off with mono instead).
Would you accept an expensive insurance to go along with your car? Or only be able to tank at a certain gas station?
How can you say a capitalist monopoly is socialist? You do know that Nazi is short for national socialist. Don't you?
Why don't the headlines ever read 'Psychic wins lottery'
Nazi is not short for socialist, in fact, it is completely opposite on the Facist Spectrum. Nazism is Capitalist, Socialist is more communisum.
In April, 1920, Hitler advocated that the party should change its name to the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP). Hitler had always been hostile to socialist ideas, especially those that involved racial or sexual equality. However, socialism was a popular political philosophy in Germany after the First World War. This was reflected in the growth in the German Social Democrat Party (SDP), the largest political party in Germany.
Hitler, therefore redefined socialism by placing the word 'National' before it. He claimed he was only in favour of equality for those who had "German blood". Jews and other "aliens" would lose their rights of citizenship, and immigration of non-Germans should be brought to an end. (link)
So, are you saying nothing should happen to the CEO's of WorldCom and Enron, despite their past behaviour ? After all, WorldCom stock was up, Enron's stock was up. Should we just say ~well, never mind about that little fraud, at least the shareholders made a profit (for a while)" ?
How long ago was IBM slapped for bundling software with hardware?
Not a historian, but we have the same situation - software or services without a measurable pricetag. In a server line, this is a lot of $$$.
I stand corrected...
... after all, it wouldn't do to make a BIOS hack that would check for the 'correct' OS without also including some encryption, right? just to be on the safe side ...
MS are subsidizing anti-MS stories.
That's the only way to deal with these bastards. If you try to be reasonable with them, they will kill you and take your money. The only language they understand is $$$money$$$.
i hope you'll at least not be dim enough to say that capitalism is all nice and good ... it's about greed. it's about the gamble that in the long run, individuals acting selfishly will, as a side effect, enhance the lives of other individuals as well. as a side effect.
... will you complain about that? ... think about microsoft, and every single time they've broken W3C standards? ... the list goes on. but that's theory. in practice, that didn't happen. at the time, the politics dictated that war had to be raged in order to keep systems stable. famine, external forces, etc. all kept the system from ever stabilizing. dictators were needed, if they were going to keep anything going at all. eventually, that failed too. also consider that it wasn't just an internal collapse: the capitalist countries (acting, as we have shown, in their own self-interest, as is natural) actually helped those systems collapse: more market share for them, more people to take money from. is russia that much richer now? no. no, they're not. what they wanted to be free of was a system that didn't work for them -- not the theory. they went through really tough times, both before and after the fall of communism.
... but those aren't necessary for communism to work. it -can- be a democratic (more democratic than what the US has, a random republic, with an electoral college, of all things?) system, and it can be very open.
... and we'll see.
communism was intended to have a different premise: that individuals would give up their 'right' to greed in exchange for an even spread of resources. now then, consider this from a theoretical point of view:
-no more marketing: what for? in the US, many products are generated for no good reason. why? because they can market them, so idiots will pay a bit, then throw the item away when they realize (months later) that it's just taking up space in the closet. why do you think we have child labor in foreign countries? to produce the products we need? hell no. to produce the products we don't need, but we can sell anyway.
-less overall production: if you stop making stuff you don't need, because the government controls the industries, there's less production. we already have plenty (in the US) so producing less junk will lead to producing less overall. now then
-standards: even in this kind of system, think that there's no profit from creating random standards ahead of time without consulting the rest of the industry
so no. it hasn't been given a fair trial. it's like asking if an exam was fair with bystanders shouting answers, throwing money at students, etc. -- it wasn't a closed system (and yet they tried so hard to make it closed!) so we don't actually know what it can look like when 'working' to its theoretical boundary.
i don't like government control. i don't like having decisions made for me at random. i don't like lack of freedom
that's in theory. give me an island, promise me you won't get in the way
... i'm amused that we can firmly state that capitalism can work without government control ... do we actually know this? as in, do we have examples of, say, 10 years of a country running with no government interference in the matters of companies?
... and for the same reason (no, we don't actually have examples of the theorectical system being implemented as dreamed) we don't actually know, for a fact, that it will / won't work.
... do we have examples? and why (b)? the point is for the companies to do what is in their best interest -- a monopoly would seem (intuitively, if not necessarily factually) to be in their best interest. monopolies cannot be avoided without some form of control, whether it is governmental or general revolt on the part of the populace. (and then we can debate about the difference when in a democratic environment.) regardless, if you want to actually, in all cases, avoid monopolies ... it has to be part of your government, otherwise you wind up with government propaganda telling their citizens that it would be in their best interest to fight the monopoly by buying from the competitor on tuesday, but not wednesday (wouldn't want to create the opposite monopoly.) ... so in essense, government control is necessary, even with only these two rules: no government control, and no monopolies. thus it becomes one rules: no government control, except to keep from having monopolies. and as we all know, rules with one exception are begging for more ... like, say, taxes ... and trade agreements ... and zoning ... and employment acts ... and anti-smoking ads ...
i'm asking because in another post, i had to reply to someone who complained that we knew for a fact that communism -had- been given its fair chance and failed
so, with capitalism
>Nazi is not short for socialist, in fact, it is completely opposite on the Facist Spectrum. Nazism is Capitalist, Socialist is more communisum. This is a fallacy. First, Nazi is indeed short for "National Socialist". Second, one only has to examine the policies of the legislative arm and party members other than Hitler to see the socialist core of facist philosophy. Remember, Nazi Germany was the first industrialized nation to introduce socialized medicine and universal gun control. A little known fact is that the political philosophy behind German facism was mostly derived not by Hitler, who concerned himself with more with foreign and military matters rather than the domestic agenda, but by Geobbels who clearly expressed his ideas on the subject. It is a mistake to view the German economy of the Nazi era as anything approaching capitalist. The fact of the matter was, the free market was eliminated under the Nazi regime and was replaced by a state-sanctioned (and often state-run) series of monopolies. "Big Business" in Germany was indeed under state control - either directly or indirectly. This is not a free market at all - but a bloodless manifestation of Karl Marx's predicted revolution.
That's what makes you ignorant of what's going on behind the scenes. No insult intended, just fact.
r es ting-people/200010/msg00025.html. com/portfolios/rulemaker/2000/rule maker000217.htm
I can't remember the actual page I had seen that had the numbers, but here are a couple that can open your eyes a bit:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/inte
http://www.fool
They got it all back through deductions. In the end, by using holes in the law, one of the wealthiest companies in the world paid next to $0. On the surface, things may look okay. When you REALLY know what's going on in the world, you just sit and shake your head.
Female Prison Rape in NY
Microsoft has no choice but to continually enhance their product, competition or no, or else people will no longer buy upgrades every few years.
The majority of Microsoft's sales are through sales of new computers through companies like Dell. After releasing XP, Microsoft stopped selling Windows 98. So companies that need a consistent platform have no choice but to upgrade to whatever Microsoft is selling as current.
If the license that came with a new PC authorized the user to run the installed XP Pro or any previous Windows OS, there would be a lot fewer sales of XP upgrades.
From the DNUK website:
"Digital Networks was formed in 1996 in Cheshire. Our aim from the start was to sell direct to the end user with dnuk.com being the focal point of our business. Digital Networks specialises in workstations, servers and notebooks running the Linux and Microsoft Windows operating systems."
Excellent systems! I currently own a DNUK Workstar W210
Highly recommended
The API issue is an important one although not the major issue in the antitrust case nor a major fraud issue. It is more of a credability issue.
And, of course if Microsoft were split up along the lines that Judge Jackson originally ordered, those secret API issues would go away.
Even with the higher disclosure requirements of the States' remedy, insiders within Microsoft will always have an advantage. And, that is so even though Microsoft benefits from giving that information to ISVs that write to the Microsoft platform.
The solution here is to drop Microsoft and go with open source. From the viewpoint of an ISV, open source will always offer a clear advantage. And, that is most likely the primary reason Microsoft has opened up a bit just lately. In the long run, they have to compete for developers. But, developers are better off without them. The "marketing" department will drive the relationship with Microsoft for some time. But, the developers are better off elsewhere. And, that will always be true.
Selling to a dominant platform is fine. But, if you are always at a disadvantage because of secrecy and illegal acts, that gets old over time.
Once competition heats up on Linux (and other open source platforms) there will be little interest in dealing with companies the likes of Microsoft.
And, by "heating up" I mean several very good desktop oriented distributions that find they can make money persuing that market. RedHat is still focused on the server market. Mandrake is much better for the desktop users but it lags in ease of use compared to Corel Linux (years old), Lindows and Xandros (from Corel).
Linux on the desktop if fine now for a somewhat qualified person. And, for corporations that want to develop custom applications that run their store. But, for general use it needs some real promotion and retail success. That will come.
Wal-Mart already puts out the Mandrake and Lindows systems. And, others will follow.
SUN appears about ready to offer a Linux based desktop system for corporate use. That might perk up Hpaq, IBM, Dell, Gateway and others. Once the corporate linux desktop takes off, there is no way that the Microsoft OEMs will want to let SUN have all the Linux desktop business. Or, only share it with Wal-Mart.
SUN may be the critical player here. You can like SUN or not like SUN. But, they do not market Microsoft based PCs. So they can not be brown nosed and beet up by Microsoft as DELL is. And, once the Linux desktop market materializes DELL is not going to take that crap from the idiots at Microsoft.
NexuSys - Linux support by the best
The EU is biding their time on the antitrust issues with Microsoft.
Historically, foreign jurisdictions hold off with antitrust actions until the home country is finished up. It is sort of a gentleman's agreement to do that.
In the old IBM case, the DOJ finally finished up doing nothing. Sound familiar? But, Europe required significant disclosure of information by IBM. And, that disclosure had world wide implications of course.
The same is likely to be the case for Microsoft. But, AOL, Be and SUN each have their own private cases still pending. And, the consumer class action lawsuits are still to come. No testimony has been taken in any of those cases to date.
I doubt the EU will wait for the private law suits. But, they may wait until after the DOJ and States' cases are finally resolved. Or, as it sounds, they may only wait until the current remedy judge issues her decision and then they may go ahead and act.
The EU is not subject to the same policial games as the DOJ and the AGs here. James from the DOJ tried to go over there on Microsoft's behalf and try to convince them to do nothing that would interfere with the political money coming in, but I doubt they care.
Mr. James going to the EU is fine. But, when you misrepresent the current state of the antitrust laws in the US trying to hold them off, your true client is disclosed to all. And, right now, the DOJ takes its orders from Microsoft all contrary to their oaths of office.
NexuSys - Linux support by the best
I didn't enjoy the gov't tax and certainly will not enjoy any MS tax.
I have seen water spilled in a running server. Very impressive... very
Dude, at one point you just gotta land the boat and decide something is true in your life.
There's no way you could have landed upon this nebulous judgement of my character based on a few posts on slashdot. It's much more likely that you felt upset by what I wrote, and now you're lashing out in anger.
Are you a teenager? Your use of the word "dude" certainly makes you look like one. That and your unbecoming, know-it-all attitude.
Debating the meaning of words and staring at the shapes of letters become the same real quick.
What a nice opinion! Naturally, I have a different one.
If you have no idea what you personally think is right and wrong and least a general idea how you want your actions to reflect your moral ideals -- you may want to get started on that.
I have a good idea of right and wrong and how my actions reflect my concept of morality, and I'm certainly not going to follow the unsolicited and juvenile personal advice of some Anonymous Coward on Slashdot who addresses me as "dude."
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
I was attempting to make a broad point.
Ahh, ideals. The devil, of course, is in the details.
What defines property? Something that can provide a unique benefit to a limited number of persons. What defines hurt? We'll start with deprivation of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and go from there.
How does "...and go from there" differ from "...and we'll arbitrarily make the rest up as we go along"? They sound functionally equivalent to me.
I think your definitions of "property" and "hurt" are far too vague. Since it is your goal to create legislation (which carries with it the threat of force) based on these concepts, don't you think it's a good idea to have definite definitions for these concepts?
My point was not to lay down a foundation for a moral society
Yet it seems you want to legislate so that corporations behave morally. Perhaps this is permissible in your desire to not lay down a foundation for a moral society.
Then again, what the hell does "laying down a foundation for a moral society" mean anyway? It's so nebulous that it could mean practically anything.
only to demonstrate that corporations as they are currently chartered are hostile to any moral society.
Your demonstration is logically flawed. You have not shown what a "moral society" is, so how can you conclude that corporations are hostile to it?
Now I'd like to see you try and define "moral society." You jumped out of the frying pan, squirmed out of the fire, and now you're dancing on hot coals becuase "moral," like "greed" and "hurting another person," is also a subjective concept.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
I'm just going to recommend to my employer that we no longer buy Dell products. They're not that great anyhow. If Dell suffer a little for bowing to the pressures of Microsoft so maybe they'll take legal action against Microsoft.
Dell ( here for instance) offers Linux as a less expensive option than Windows on at least this server. And as for their competitors, here 's an example of IBM doing the same, but with a greater variety of Linux options.
I'll bookmark these and mark my calendar to see the change on the 26th, since a unidentified source on Slashdot is such a reliable way to get information.
From an US perspective: Nazism is what you get when you veer too far to the extreme right, and Communism is what you get when you veer too far to the left. Extremes on both sides have similar consequences (tyranny, genocide, the whole shibang).
Socialism is in between liberal and communist (far left). Nazism is as far from socialism as you could get.
You are not forced to purchase a Microsoft product, nor are you forced to purchase a Dell. Dell did not nessicarily have to listen to Microsoft. However, since they sell alot of Windows licenses, they must have a good deal with them. Proof that Windows is what people want, not what they are forced to use. As for the anti-competitive tactics which I often see as a complaint, this is just illusory correlation with something unusual. If you can't see anti-competitive tactics in any business, then theres something wrong with that business. If it's illegal to compete in this country, I don't know why we havn't collapsed like the roman empire yet. If Microsoft is going to be forced by the law to promote or sell a competitor's product, then I don't see why AOL wouldn't allow microsoft to advertise it's MSN service in Time magazine. funny. congrats to netscape, palm and sun on conspiring to file a frivilous antitrust lawsuit. The last and final evidence of a non-existant monopoly is the existence and wide spread use of Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, MacOS, BeOS, AIX, IRIX, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...
die bitch die!
Lizard "Never let them set limits on your mind!"
I currently run a 22-year-old Moskvitch. Makes driving most adventrous :)
Why not?
This is not about Linux. This is so people can't go buy a new Dell and get their friendly neighborhood geek to install their old copy of Windows 98 on it.
I am so one thousand three hundred and thirty seven!
I don't have any newer versions of Word; do the newer versions have this same option? If so, this really isn't a problem. Even if a user doesn't know how to change the settings (or is too afraid to "mess with it", MIS can set up the PCs to do this via a startup script or when installing the corporate software package.
I'm not a fan of many of M$'s policies and technical snafus, but they have done a good enough job to rise to the top of the heap and hang on. If that wasn't the case, we'd be bashing IBM or somebody else right now for taking advantage of the semi-computer-literate masses.
science is a religion
Had that error on an Abit BE6-II with a new 60GB drive. Turns out win2k didn't like the IDE controller chip so I bought a PCI Promise IDE controller card. Fixed it up and it installed fine. Seems there may be BIOS updates for the motherboard and highpoint controller chip that would have fixed it.
If you have older hardware and newer drives, see if the are updates or look into buying a new controller card or something.
Upgrade to a giguli
I don't know if Bill Gates is Hitler...
The only thing I know is that YOU are a stupid sheep...
I mean: I am not using not using Windows, nor a PC and
I'm not dead...
People are all buying (or worst: copying) Windows just to play
some stupid games or use Word and they say: "wow, Microsoft..."
Come on...
There was a time when you had the choice... and you did not
take your chance...
If Microsoft is everywhere now, this is other companies' fault...
@+,
Leo.
It doesn't look that way to me.
Dale $Amon from vnl dot com$
Thanks to the EULA and WPA an OEM copy of microsoft's OS is inexorably tied to the machine it was purchased with. A few years ago, Microsoft started requiring all OEMs to ship "image restoration CDs" instead of installable discs. This means that you can't do an OS install from scratch...you must re-image the hard drive to the factory default configuration. WPA links a product serial number to a hardware based hash on your machine. This makes your software activation key useless on another machine.
Nice huh? You never really own the product, you are just "licensing" the product and therefore you can not sell what you don't own.
-ted
I really appreciate the improved tenor of this most recent post: I feel like you're really starting to discuss with me and explain your point of view in a fair and informative manner. Thank you.
:) I know I'm coming off as a stickler and an asshole. I don't think my demands have been unfair.
:)
(yes, in broad terms...if I could do this in detail sufficient to satisfy your demands, I'd be a PhD economist instead of an engineering student)
Hehehe!
1) Those who have power must be responsible to those over whom the power is wielded.
This is a good philosophical question. It hinges, of course, on the definition of "power." Given your anti-corporate stance (which isn't bad or wrong, in and of itself, given what some corporations get away with nowadays), I think you would likely believe that employers have power over those they employ. This can be true, and I think the converse is also true. Suppose a corporation depends on a single employee who has skills or information for its most siginifant income center. In that case, the employee has power over her/his employer. As a less hypothetical question, trade unions today weild tremendous power over many huge corporations (such as Ford and AT&T) in various different markets. In those cases, would you agree that the employees are responsible for their employers, since the employees are in a position of power? Should the employees be barred from quitting and punished by law for poor performance? Please don't play with the definition of the word "power" by starting to talk about "true power."
2) Legitimate power derives only from the will of the citizenry.
I have big problems with this statement. In the 1930s, many Germans agreed with the aryan supremacist message of the Third Reich. Many Americans agreed with it as well, which was one of the reasons that it took America so long to enter the war. The Ku Klux Klan also enjoyed broad popularity across much of the United States in the earlier part of the 20th century. Were the Third Reich and the Ku Klux Klan thus legitimate leaders because they represented the will of the citizenry? Please don't play with the definition of the word "will" by starting to talk about "legitimate will."
I see you refuting my position. I would be interested to see you take a position of your own.
There should be no action lawful to an individual that does not deprive another individual of life, liberty, or property; all other actions should be legal. Government does most everything poorly and its influence should be drastically reduced in the aspects of individuals' lives. Corporations should not be full rights that individuals have. (What rights they should be granted is still up for debate, and I think that they have too many rights today.) Class envy and intellectual arrogance are the ever-present driving forces behind Leftist ideology. I don't even know what "right-wing" or "conservative" mean anymore; I think most people who label themselves as much are assholes anyway. You can pick on any part that you want.
It always interests me how much laissez-faire capitalists depend on the government to protect their little fiefdoms.
Then they're not really laissez-faire corporations at all. They're laissez-faire until the corporate welfare bandwagon comes rolling by.
I'd be totally happy with a government that did not involve itself in matters of commerce.
Me too!
but the corps would never accept that.
This statement depends on the truth of the statement "corporations are all the same." I don't buy it.
I guess I'm also wondering if you think there are ANY laws that should be applied to corporations?
Did you conclude that I believed such a thing as "corporations should be exempt from all laws" on the basis that I disagreed with other parts of your beliefs? The lack of said belief and the mentioned disagreement can, and do, exist independently of each other.
Is it OK for corps to pollute? (Gosh, there I go sounding like a wacko environmentalist. What HAS gotten into me?)
Of course not! The problem is, of course, what defines "pollution"? That definition is awfully slippery and therefore has quickly fallen under the shadow of political corruption. And no, I didn't think that your question was wacko.
Is it OK for corps to maintain and extend monopolies, destroying the free market?
I differ from most Libertarians in that I think it is a legitimate function of government to insist that free markets occur. It's easy to see how this can quickly become a matter of political corruption. Furthermore, some markets don't lend themselves as well as others do to free markets. Take utilities, for example.
Is it OK for corps to defraud stockholders?
I'll take it you're using the legal definition of the word "fraud." The answer is a resounding "hell no."
Is it OK for government to defraud its citizens? How about violate the 4th amendment? Did you know that in 80% of drug seizures (which can include things such as vehicles, houses, and arbitrary amounts of cash) the victim is never charged with a crime? You have mentioned the Constitutional Convention several times. Why would you be so pissed off about the actions of a few of many, many thousads upon thousands of corporations when the government routinely wipes its ass with the 4th (and 5th -- have you seen or filed a U.S. tax return before) amendments?
Perhaps I should mention now that I am an executive in a very small (2-person) corporation. My position does give me an unusual perspective on the issue.
How will a society "charter itself toward this idea of "socio-economic justice"? Well, the Constitutional Convention did a damn good job, if you ask me.
But the change didn't really happen with the Constitutional Convention. The Federalists had a hard job of convincing the States to ratify the constitution.
I would very much like to see a similar evaluation of the needs of our country...although I do not belive that it would be possible to accomplish today.
I have a feeling you'd like to see the government come in and just FORCE everyone to adopt your ideals.
Not on Earth, anyhow. I have high hopes for colonization of other places, as this process will provide the geographical and economic isolation required to really invent new ways of setting up societies, just as occurred in America over the last 300 years.
And what's going to keep that society from just turning to crap like this one has? Do you suppose that the heinous behavior of corporations and government can be attributed to human nature? If so, then I don't have high hopes for any space colonies that humans create.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
that's actually illegal. This was ruled illegal as part of the 1996 judgement against MS relating to illegal forcing of bundling with hardware. Apparently Dell's lawyers are very bright. Any competent first year law student would know that MS's licensing terms WRT bunding with an O/S is illegal.
Interesting thread.
Nazism is not as far from socialism as you can get. The problem is you are thinking of this as a straight line. It's more helpful to think of it as a circle. You have capitalism and communism on opposite ends (say - at 12 and 6 o'clock) and totalitarinism and democracy at opposite ends (say - at 9 and 3 o'clock).
That's a more accurate way of defining things. If you go "too far" towards the right, you'll end up in totalitarianism, just as if you go too far to the left.
The Nazi's were right at 9:00. They were totalitarian, but the government was effectively majority stakeholder in all private enterprise. So while it wasn't outright capitalism, it wasn't communism either. Effectively, the difference between socialism and communism is purely semantic. In one the government owns everything, and in the other the "people" own everything. The problem is, they both work out to the same result in the final analysis (the government).
The Soviets were at about 8:00. The US is somewhere around 2:00.
This is a much better scale, IMO.
Capitalism and socialism are economic systems, communism and democracy (or republicanism, which is the system used in the US, as we don't all vote for every law) are political systems. They are on different "circles".
Just think about it for a moment; it would be possible to have a completely socialist system (no private ownership of anything) where all citizens were allowed to vote for every law (actual democracy). Yes, this would be a ponderous system, but it is a possible system. Completely socialist, completely democratic (unlike any existing nation). Obviously, these systems can't simply exist at different points on the same circle; they must exist as points on different circles.
Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable. --H.L. Mencken
I'm a sysdamin, netengineer, etc. I deal with employyes with liek 80 machines - not a huge net. But if I need to upgrade my hardware (read buy new boxes) and not my version of Windows- Microsoft says no? Hey Bill - I paid you when I bought my LAST round of new PCs. The new ones will run Windows 98 just FINE, and no one here NEEDS Windows 2000 or XP. So now I can't buy new machines from Dell or other major companies without new software. Hmmm. I dont think i get an upgrade price break when I buy my new machine do I? Whats that Mr. Bill? You dont support Windows 98 anymore? Hmmm - when I called in for support after Windows 98 was introduced I had to PAY for support on software I JUST bought. Same idea goes for MSOffice. buy a new PC - get the new version. Not to mention it confuses the hell out of all of my end users as to why thier documents are able to be opened on other machines. Why don't we just unmask MR Bill for what he really is... the green skinned master of the Borg. Oh - we cant do that. Hes far uglier than the Borg in Star Trek :-)