Slashdot Mirror
Helping Your Ex-Employer?
ali_bubba asks: "A funny thing happened to me today, I have beeb unemployed for over 5 months, and all of a sudden my ex-Boss calls me and demands (well, it sounded like a demand) that I help her out, because her entire corporate LAN was down. Naturally, she knows that I'm kind person, but boy what attitude, so I did help her save the day. She did not even bother calling me back to thank me, (like if you get slapped, turn the other cheek, as Jesus once said) Has anyone else had this happen to them before? What actions did you take?" While I can understand that some people in this situation may harbor some ill will if place in this situation, it may behoove you to see this as an opportunity, and at the very least, an opportunity to make a little money off of your old company. It doesn't pay to burn bridges, especially if they need something that you can provide. For those who have been in this situation, how did you handle it? For others, if you were offered work from your old job, would you do it, and under what conditions would your perform said work?
ask for consulting fees.
Submit an invoice to her for the time necessary to do this (plus transportation, etc.) to her at my previous rate. This may seem harsh to some or weak-willed to others, but it sends a message that you value your time and expect to be compensated.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
"$200 an hour, minimum 8 hours"
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --H.L. Mencken
-----
Score 3? For what? Being wrong, at length? - smirkleton
Your name wouldn't be Matt would it? Cause it sounds like you just got walked all over.
You'll have that sometimes...
You got screwed you jackass. They still view you as a little peon to do their bidding, and you just keep falling for it. Have fun.
You only mentioned that she did not call to thank you.. Did she at least pay you for your time?
i swear my userid used to be lower.
what ever the average rate for this sort of work on a "for hire" basis is and send her an invoice. [documenting what you did]
otherewise NEVER work onthe machine again.
You should have told her to F.O.A.D. Alternately 100$/hr is also a more polite way to say it. If you continue to offer your services for free, it will get around :(
Rather depends if you need her as a reference...
h
you know this first post crap is stupid. Grow up already and stay on topic. Can someone with moderater points do something about the FP thread. -L
If the outage was related to a mistake on your part, I would think you would be a least morally obligated to correct it. Otherwise, what's to stop someone from hosing the entire network and then quitting?
I woulda just billed em. The RAID crashed at the place I had been laid off from last, and the only admin just had a cyst removed from his shoulder so he couldn't type. In a panic, they gave me a call.
:) Got everything back within 45 minutes, spent another half hour "stress testing" the RAID, and I was off.
:)
I had already gotten a new job, but I was happy to work with em on an evening, for $70/hr
I mean, I would have at least charged them $10/hr. if I was you
A polite, "I'm sorry, but my current schedule precludes me from being able to help" works for me.
Of course, if you want/need the work, then just go do it at whatever rate you think is fair. Just bite your lip and don't comment one way or the other, it only leads to problems.
Make sure you get paid! Is she your close friend? If so, you could be nice. If not, bill them! I would suggest billing for the time you spent there to fix this incident as well, it will send a clear signal. IT support is NOT free.
Thank you for calling on the services of ACME Consuling.. Here is my bill for 3hrs (min.) of work at $150/hr.. Please pay the total amount of $450 by the end of the month or there will be an added interest charge of 15% per week after that.
Free Mac Mini
Woke up one morning to an email from a former boss wanting "information about the current SCADA applications" at a place I worked for while under his employ.
That was pretty bad.
Then he said, "Sorry for sending it to you so early in the morning, I need it for a lunch meeting".
It was actually a sales pitch at lunch.
I was pissed, but that didn't set me off.
He sent the email with a HIGH PRIORITY MS Outlook flag, so it had a red ! in my Inbox. !!!!
I debated sending a nasty flaming message regarding compensation for my time, etc.
Then I looked at my clock. 1PM.. Oops. Woke up too late to help you pal.
You didn't say if you billed them. YOu make it sound as if you did it gratis, free, no charge. That would be a big mistake. Otherwise of course you would do work for your old company if they're going to pay you. As with any contract work the fee charged has to make sense. It has to cover your expenses. Medical, transportation, other administrative overhead costs, the going rate for someone with your expertise. And there's no problem in charging a little more if you're familiar with their network. That's simply supply and demand. Work is work. And if you're currently not working any legal work is fair game. Right?
http://tinyurl.com/3t236
In any situation, no matter how well you document what you do, there are going to be a few things that are both specific to your particular setup and not something anyone else at the company knows. I suppose this would be less of a problem the larger your staff is, i.e. how many people there were doing the same job you were. In cases where this is an issue, I think it's pretty reasonable for your boss to call and ask questions, although I think it would be equally reasonable to not answer if you held a lot of enmety towards said boss. If you left on good terms (which it didn't sound like was the case in the post), then the friendly thing to do is give an answer. If they want you to come over and spend time on a problem, then by all means get paid, but if it's just a quick query, then helping them out seems reasonable.
Narrative
You have just been added to my foes list (and yes, i DO have a user account, i troll anonymously)
Business is business. Its not like you said, 'Oh sure, I will do skilled computer work for you for free.' Send her an invoice at your hourly rate, and thats it. This question is kinda pointless as it seems an open & shut case, but are there other details missing? Otherwise, its simple service -> payment scenerio.
"What can a thoughtful man hope for mankind on Earth, given the experience of the past million years? Nothing." -Bokonon
See Absurd Notions, page 4, the last three comics on the page.
For an actual response to the question... like many others have said, I assume you were doing this for money, not for free, right? If it's for money, then I don't see any problem. They get what they want (their network fixed), you get what you want (to be paid), everyone's happy.
If, OTOH, your ex-boss was demanding that you donate your time and effort for free, then I can't see any reason not to just laugh in her face.
Kai MacTane: Web developer for hire in San Francisco
After three years of always having me to call on to take care of anything IT related, I think they have just gotten used to it.
The first time after I left (I actually quit, was not laid off) that I got the call, I think I handled it the best way possible.
You tell them 'I'd love to help you out. You know I am consulting on my own now, right?'
Explain to them that you are your own business. Find a price that is fair... not unreasonably high, but something that is in a solid ballpark. I settled on twice of what I made hourly for the company. When you consider that a:) you are now going to have to pay additional social security as an independant consultant and are having to pay the costs of your own benifits (health care, etc.), and b:) You don't have a full time job, so a little extra is worth having.
Good luck to you. Remember, you don't work for them anymore. Of course you don't want to mean or vicious to them (to burn your bridges), just be freindly and professional. If you feel that you have some personal obligation to help them out, remember that when they let you go, it was 'just business' to them. Treat them the same way.
Good luck
The Internet is generally stupid
you could have spent your time better, like playing suikoden on the PS2 or even better, staring at a blank wall. You have to bill people for work, otherwise down the line you'll be reading 'Codependent No more'. If yuo want to do some more free work, I can point you at some old employers. Maybe they can pay you in stock warrants. The best thing to do would have been to do an onsite call, then secretly take a shit in the server room. that would have been great.
Basic case handling fee: $500,00
Case study: $280
Rapid deployment fee: $843,00
8 workhours: 8 * $184,00 = $1472
Non-office hours: 4 * $380,00 = $1520
Travel expenses: 43 miles * $2/mile = $86,00
TOTAL: $4701
TO BE PAID: $4701 + taxes
DUE: TODAY
Your previous boss didn't ask for price. That means, he is prepared to pay anything.
Send them a bill for services rendered.
Include detail regarding what task your performed and how long it took. Make sure your hourly rate is *at least* equivalent to what you were paid while under their employ. If they don't pay, take them to small claims court.
It may sound spiteful, but if you don't get paid for your work they're gonna keep doing this to you. (Why pay for the cow when you can get the milk for free?)
It is quite simple
Haiku should not be funny
Try a Senryu
It doesn't pay to burn bridges, especially if they need something that you can provide. It also doesn't pay to do things for free. What were you thinking doing pro-bono work for an individual that doesn't respect you? Besides not getting paid did you even think about the liability of tinkering with someone else's network? It certainly doesn't pay to screw people over but your approach to this situation was just plain stupid. I hope you learn from this and react differently in the future.
Sounds like she is still blaming you for her network problems and expected you to solve it even though you aren't there anymore. Pretty ballsy... Also, you don't mention if you were laid off, fired or just quit. That information would contribute to the "how burned you just got" question.
This is like the old joke about the doctor and lawyer playing golf. Another golfer runs up and asks the doctor some medical question. The doctor gives some advice and the man runs off. The doctor asks the lawyer if he ever has similar problems. The lawyer responds, "Not so much anymore. I used to have people asking for free legal advice all the time, then I started sending them bills. They don't ask me for advice so much anymore." The doctor responded that he'd have to start doing that also. A week later the doctor got a bill in the mail from the lawyer for services rendered.
You might not expect (i.e. probably can't force them) to get paid, but it does send the message that you are willing to help in the future, but you aren't going to do for free anymore.
The perfect time to negotiate your hourly rate would have been while the "entire corporate LAN was down." But if you did end up doing the work pro bono, at least your old boss will know she can count on you in the future. Next time make sure to work out the terms ahead of time.
If you end up doing a lot of consulting work, you're going to have to get a business license and (depending on the state) get a tax ID number. Here's a pretty basic article about setting up a consulting business (although it's aimed at Web developers).
I had something similar happen a couple of years ago.
I had been contracting for a large insurance firm and had ended the contract myslef about 5 years ago. I stayed on good terms with the IT director though.
About two years ago I got a harried email asking if I could urgently help them to sort out a network security problem.
After a polite phone call (in which I made it clear what my consulting rates are) I went in and sorted out their problems. A nice few thousand quid for a couple of days work.
Since then I've had fairly regular calls from them culminating in them taking a support contract with me a little over a year ago the profits from which have allowed me to fund projects that I would otherwise not have been able to launch.
When something like this happens consider it as a business opportunity. Perhaps you'll get nothing more than a few hundred $ in which case you've lost nothing. On the other hand it can turn into a long term opportunity without the hassle of being employed by the company - of course your fees need to reflect the real cost of carrying out the work and that basis.
Everybody else has said this, but I'll say it as well; they are a business seeking a service, and you are somebody capable of giving that service. That means renumeration for time and expertise, and that means you bill them. They're a business, and it's as simple as that.
It also means you get something in at least an email saying that they've agreed to your rates. That means you bring a time sheet, fill it out, and get them to sign it before you leave. If they don't sign it, undo all the work you just did.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
If whatever you helped with involved having passwords to sensitive information that you had access to while working there, you might want to "forget" those passwords.. They may be looking for someone to take a fall for a break in...
I had one ex-employer, several months after I had quit, call me and ask for some passwords for their main development server... Mind you that half the office knew the passwords to the server, so its not like I was the only one.. There's no way I was going to say that I knew the passwords..
back when i started out as a phone supporter in 1994 i worked as a freelance and really wanted to be employed by this company. But all over sudden they told me to leave and i went out and signed in another company for much better conditions. ;-)
But as they say you always meet twice. So i went to the munich oktoberfest and ran into my bosses boss. He was really wasted and when he heard my story he got angry and must have called my former chief. Well, finally my old boss called me in again and it was my pleasure to hear him beg me to come back. Needless to say i didnt, but it was true fun. Now im self-employed and work for his firm from time to time...but i cash in pretty much and i guess he hates my bills...
cu,
Lispy
I'm just wondering what can happen to a "good samaritan" in terms of liability. If you hadn't been able to fix the network, or if some malware (virus, trojan) shows up sometime in the near future, what's to stop them from coming after you with a team of attack lawyers? While it's unlikely, if somebody was willing to make a demand of you like that, I wouldn't be surprised if they were willing to play pass-the-buck if something unfortunate happens.
While I admire you for following your beliefs, I don't know that I would have done the same. Only if the livelihood of my friends at the company were jeopardized would I go for it -- or if the money was exceptional.
If you didn't get paid you are a fool. You boss was getting paid to sit on the phone and bug you for help, you should have been paid for coming up with the solution. If you didn't ask for money, then take it as a lesson.
I was laid off on a Thursday, and the HR person at Nortel told me that I wasn't required to do any more work. Despite this, my manager called me the next day and told me to help them out with one of their online tools. Just like you, I'm sometimes a little bit too kind and helped her out anyway, because I felt that I needed the reference from them in order to get another job. Looking back, I regret helping her... after all, she was the one to put me on the hit list. Anyway, she got laid off three months after me, and I'm running my own business now.
I live in Providence, RI. It's too small a community to not help people out around here. I do work for ex employers all the time, they pay me, the job gets done, and I get excellent references when I look for better opportunities.
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
If you could get it, great, but it isn't going to happen. There's a reason this person was laid off - most likely financial, since they were called back to fix a problem - so why would they pay them for all that time?
+5:offtopic,but anti-American
Whenever I end a contract or switch jobs, I send a polite letter to my direct supervisor - and their direct as well.
...
Regardless of the circumstances, I thank them for the opportunity of having worked with them, blah, blah, blah
And I include a paragraph outlining my skillset, and offering future services "at the rate of $150/hr + expenses".
I've had a few calls over the years. Some have tried to weedle me out of my fee with the 'ol "can I just ask you a few questions?" line. I always answer this with a standard "maybe in a few days, I'm working on something kindof important right now".
A few have agreed to pay. A few have told me to go take a flying leap (or more colorful words to that effect) One told me to f-off, and that if I didn't get my ass down there right away they'd sue me because they were sure it was my fault in the first place. I received a call two weeks later from that person's boss asking me nicely to consider helping out. I agreed, but demanded payment up-front at a higher rate "for all of the nastiness". I got what I wanted, including having my orignal supervisor "off premises" for the entirety of the rebuild.
I work for an IT shop, where one of our primary vendors was in the process of moving out of the country. We were assigned a new programmer who not only had a steep learning curve of our customized site, but he could barely speak English to boot. We had our manager threaten the vendor with breach of contract and the withholding of payment. Vendor was forced to contract the programmer who was originally let go (at a much higher rate).
1)We hope you got paid.. either cash, some hot lovin from the cute interns, or you at least walked out with a router or something.
2)Bill them appropriately.
3)Contact your old boss and see if things are still up & running. Never hurts to keep up somewhat decent relations with the old employer.
Which means that you're that cock Anonymous coword
If the management of your former company did not see fit to keep the personnel they need to meet their business needs, it's really their problem, not yours. Helping them only puts you in the role of "enabler". If a friend of mine calls--whether they're at my former company or somewhere else--I always help them via phone or e-mail; but if it's an ex-boss calling on behalf of the company, I tell them that I cannot afford the liability of providing services to them without a contractual agreement.
I'll add my "you shoulda billed 'em" charge to the rest. However, if you didn't negotiate that beforehand, it may look a little sleazy to bill them afterwards. And in my experience, you always meets your business associates later in your career.
Yes, your former boss had no business asking for your free time to help them after they laid you off, but if you agreed to help them at no charge (hoping for some consideration from them), then you might be stuck. Sending them a bill now might just turn your goodwill into bad since that's the last impression she would have of you.
I had a similar situation happen to me once. I left a company after I had built some custom software for them to do some traffic analysis. The VP was angry I left, but everyone else really wanted help to keep updating this application. Initially they wanted to pay me as a contractor (after I left and had another job!) so they could update his application, but the VP shot it down. At the same time, I didn't want to leave my former co-workers in the lurch, so I did them a favor. I told them that I would consult with them (but not touch any code) if they paid for lunch. I got a few free sushi lunches, they got the help they needed, and the VP ended up paying for the bills without knowing what it was about.
So even if you didn't want to explicitly charge your former boss, surely there was some way to get compensated for your time. If you didn't negotiate it the first time, at least you learned a quick lesson. Then again, if she called you once for help and got it, you can be sure that she'll call you again, so you may get your chance after all.
Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
You were laid off (presumably to save money) by a company that didn't have the foresight to have someone, somewhere on retainer to fix brokes. And when things actually did break, instead of paying someone to fix it they call you and browbeat you into doing it for free? "Kind" isn't the word I'd use for that.
As a rule, I don't mind answering a quick question from a former client or employer. I figure that it generates good will, and even if I don't have any desire to work at that site again, at least I've improved my references. That being said, if something looks like it's either going to take more than an hour on the phone, require me to visit the site, or be ongoing, I politely suggest that I can't help them with out a minimum of a signed fax committing to $RATE plus $EXPENSES (and I require a contract for anything more than 2 days work). If I can't get a commitment on that, I figure someone is just looking to abuse me.
I had about the exact same thing happen to me. I was laid off from my job, and not a week later I had a call from my old boss demanding some information. I quietly replied that my consulting fees are $20 an hour and the clock was ticking. Luckily for him it was only a 2 min question (I don't bill for anything under 30 min). However, luckily for me I did answer his question because exactly one month later another department called me back to do some contract work. Like one comment I read it doesn't help to burn any bridges. Sometimes one just needs to swallow his/her pride. Oh and one note I was able to renew my contract and I am working from home. Oh my gosh you guys working from home is so sweet!
It's all about money at this point. I have yet to find a company that really gives a shit about thier employees. That's why we're all reduced to being called "Human Resources".
Is when you solve someone's hardware problem, then if it comes up in discussion later, they say, "You didn't help me, I figured it out by myself". Sure thing skippy! If I didn't help you you'd still be trying to make that phone cable fit into your ethernet port!
You just got used.
My ex-boss and I have a set arrangement: He hires me as a contractor at 3x my previous salary with a minimum of 1.5 weeks work. It's worked out beautifully for both of us.
get a spine. If you want to 'help out,' fine, but don't bitch when you're not rewarded. Jesus didn't.
Give due credit
Have you ever asked yourself just why your ex-boss thinks she can get away with walking all over you the way that she does? Do you get shit on like this in other areas of your life? No one can really respect you if you don't respect yourself you know. As to this twat calling up and "demanding" that you work for her months after she's laid you off--I would have replied "350/hr, minimum 8 hours plus compensation for all the time I've been unemployed, bitch!" and slammed the phone down. If she wants you she can call back. Grow a spine, man, your life will be the better for it.
Jesus say submit to the corporate masters and the plutocracy or you go to hell like the commies!
Business is business. Don't feel bad about saying "I can help you, but it's going to cost you". Don't feel bad at all.. because if you don't do it, they will pay someone else and arm and a leg to do it.
Ask for a lot. If they think it's not much, point out that you can probably fix it in half the time that some other outfit could because you are familiar with it, so they'll end up paying the same, and having it fixed that much faster.
There are some former employers whom I would do a favor for, only because they have done me favors in the past. There are others who I would not help out unless the money was large.
I remember a lesson from my business law course in college. The example they used was this.
If you come home and find that somebody mowed your lawn, you do not own them money because you have no relationship.
If you're at a strip club and you say "no thank you" to a lap dance but she performs anyway, you don't owe a thing because even though they performed a service for which you would normally expect payment, you expressly said you don't want a business relationship.
If you see a kid mowing your lawn and you wave to him (or otherwise prove you know he was doing it), you owe him money. By acknowledging that he was performing a service for which you would normally pay you agree to a business relationship.
If you send a reasonable invoice, you can expect to be paid.
Vanguard
That which does not kill me only makes me whinier
Were you fired, or did you quit? If you were fired, then how dare they lay you off and then demand that you help them! If you quit, however, maybe you are still friendly and mighta done this favor? Even so, it is not "rude" to ask for compensation.
I was the leaded programmer and systems administrator, for a software company all our systems where Linux. I had tons of custom scripts to do backups, restores, replication and custom modified php, i added some functions directly to the php source code, so when a new person came in he found that just upgrading apache and php, didn't work :) . So they give me a call a few weeks after getting layed off. "None of our intranet software will run" we upgraded apache and php and it still doesn't work." I knew exactly what the problem was. I told them, I could have it running by the end of the day tomorrow. 'I thought I would let them sweat it alittle.' And I told them my consulting fee was $125 per hour with a 2 hour minimum. At the end of the day I walked away with a check for $500. I can't wait until they attempt to upgrade again.
- Unlimited Power by Anthony Robbins. My personal favorite.
- Getting to Yes by Roger Fisher and William Ury. The classic negotiation book.
- Start With No by Jim Camp. I haven't read this one, actually, but it sounds very on-topic.
Good luck. Find your strength.Make her pay for your time, since you no longer work there, you're a contract. If she feels that she doesn't need to pay, inform her that you certainly can undo the work you did. And then sue... And for the future: get paid in advance if you can, or by the hour, negotiate some money, dude!
Has anyone else had this happen to them before? What actions did you take?
I'd be glad to explain to you all the times that this has happened to me and what actions I took for only $25/hour.
Hey, Ali - I've got a problem with my network over here, too. I can't seem to DHCP addresses with my wireless cards sometimes. Come over sometime today or tomorrow and get it fixed for me before business starts back up on Monday. Call me and let me know what time is best for you.
Thanks.
I have been meaning to do this for a while, and have just not got around to it.
Anyone, while they have money at the time, should look into doing this. Setup a company and be able and willing to bill thru it at a moments notice. That way when you get laid off, you can say you are an employee of YourCompany, LLC, at the time, and not be lieing.
This would go for helping out friends companies etc after hours, or the same situation you mentioned. You could really bill any time through the company.
There are also a lot of companies that are willing to hire you as a contractor for 6 months that aren't willing to hire a new employee. This makes it easier to get such positions.
cliffy ... you're a nice guy! i've bailed old employers out before without compensation, but it's a little over the top if it takes more than 15 minutes of your time.
the lack of a thank-you was very inappropriate.
send your bosses boss an email, cc'ing her; and note the liability of not having anyone in the organization that can keep their network up and running.
from your short blurb, your boss is a clueless schmuck.
I have two mottos for this type of situation. "Cash up Front!" and/or "Show me the money!" It is also wise to have them email/fax you a P.O. (Purchase Order) not to exceed ($x). That way if they try to stiff you in the end you can take them to small claims and still collect your fee. Additionally, asking for a P.O. gives the problem a bit of visibility outside of IT. By calling you up and making demands, this loser manager probably took credit for your work. You made her look compotent and she was able to "save the day" with your FREE work. Remember my friend, "Cash up front!", especially if the place laid you off.
The first sentence out of your mouth should have been your consulting rate.
"Come help us get our LAN up again."
"My usual consulting rate is $200 per hour. I'd be happy to do the job. When would you like me to be there?"
Depending on where you are, $200 per hour may be ridiculously low.
I left a job of three years on good terms. The admin they hired to replace me was fired, but they did not follow proper procedures. He came in that weekend and trashed the systems. I was called to see if I could bail them out. I did but at my standard consulting rate. I made money on the side and they got back to work quickly. Everyone was happy.
If you are not on the books there could be legal issues if you make things worse, get hurt, etc.
Be sure that you are on the books as an employee/contractor/etc. whenever you do work for a proir company. This is for your protection as well as that of the employer.
comment directly in my journal
I gave my prior employer my rate, and they decided that it wasn't such an emergency after all. In reality, they just thought they could get me to do the work for cheap since I was so familiar with the subject matter. It turns out they already had another contractor give them a similar price.
If you did the work for them for free, then the ploy worked. I'd guess it probably does, most of the time. Remember, this is business, the thing that keeps you and your family eating.
Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.
Everybody seems to be telling you to invoice them.
Don't.
You didn't discuss a fee upfront. You should have. Well, you've learned a lesson in life. Now, move on.
This has happened to me so many times its ridiculous. But Its a good thing - great way to make some easy cash on the side
Simply figure out what you're worth an hour - then double it.
Offer the ex-employer two rates - the doubled rate if they pay above the table (taxes, 1099 etc)- Or - The rate discounted by a third if its paid in cash
---- "Logoff! That cookie shit makes me nervous!" - A. Soprano
When you work for any employer, you should present yourself to your employer as a professional. In return your should expect treatment as a professional. If you don't get it, you should decline to continue your relationship with your employer.
If a former employer called me for help I would eveluate the request using the criterea:
1. Would helping my former employer violate any agreements I have signed with my current employer?
2. Did the former employer live up to their obligations to me as an employee, and treat me as a professional?
3. Did my employment contract with my former employer include any provision that I provide such services?
If 1&2 or 3 are satisfied I would fax the person a standard consulting contract with my hourly rates. On receipt of a signed contract I would then perform the requested services.
If not, I would decline.
The agent pushed me around once too often so I left the customer for a job that paid around 50% more (this broke my heart), I had had no quarrel with the customer. A couple of months later, my old boss at the old customer rang me and told me about a bug in my coding that had come up in production. It was not really worth my time (hourly rates) but it only took me a couple of hours to fix the bug and repair the resulting damage, all my old co-workers went out of their way to give me all the access I needed. Then my ex-boss simply refused to pay me - he seemed to think I had a moral obligation to fix any bugs.
It was not worth suing for (at a guess) $140 so I simply made it clear that any help from now on was going to be on the telephone if I had nothing else more important to do at the time. The guys rang once more, I gave them 5 more minutes of my time and that was it.They offered me a job when I was looking for something 14 years later so I suspect not antagonising them was a safer course, I found something else though
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
For engineers to be consultants in a small consulting firm, they need a professional engineering license. If you're with a large company, then you probably won't need it.
I don't know anything about other professions needing certification for cunsulting, but they would probably add a little bit to your rate.
If an old employer calls me, I instantly take the position of independent contractor. I also adjust my fees and terms according to past payment history. I may offer verbal advice but never a line of code or "hands-on" work without payment. One example: A previous employer, who owed $2,500 in back-pay, had the nerve to call me and ask me to work on a big project. I replied, "If you pay me what you owe, I will consider your project." I met him for lunch. He handed me a check for the amount owed. I then quoted double my regular rate and weekly payment terms. The [part-time] project brought in $45K over the next few months! Sometimes it works out.
Well I have helped out a former employer once or twice. Why? I knew if I didn't I would be putting a fellow programmer in an awkward position of a Boss wanting something VAGUE and NOW. Having been there several times myself ,I do what I can but stop short of exploitation!!
Well, seeing as the last place I was able to find work, I was only offered $5/hour... no. The guy actually had to talk to his accountant to discover the minimum wage. I'm an experienced professional C++/assembly programmer on DSPs. I was doing advertising design, web design, new product design, and planning for future PDA programming for this company too.
His other developer and his family had to live in a trailer - and the boss "gave" him a car and phone, only to hold them over his head. When he was sick for a few days, the boss had that phone disconnected.
The boss even proclaimed to be an experienced Europian developer, and he did fluently speak several languages... so I'm amazed he could treat people that way... and much worse than that on many occasions too. But his company was the only place that would even allow a computer person with less than 3 years experience find a job. He even made quitting a huge hassle - I had to research and quote many specific laws before he dismissed me with "it's not worth my time" to get paid for my two weeks there, even at minimum wage.
Now I'm still looking for a job... any job. And I can't. I haven't for months. I've called half the numbers in the yellow pages and looked at all the leads in all towns within three hours drive. I have to say, looking for work as a programmer in central Florida REALLY sucks.
Ryan Fenton
Yes, I'd help out my old company. But it would be at one hell of a premium price! Basically, you can charge about $125 per hour as a consultant and still have that considered a reasonable rate.
But if they were going to cop an attitude with me, my minimum would be the equivalent of 2 months of my salary at the time I left the company. Half (non-refundable) to be paid up front, the other half to be paid when I've completed the job they brought me on to cover.
In ANY situation, make sure you get a P.O. from them before you show up to do the work!!! It should state what the work is that they expected you to accomplish. If they start asking you to do other things while you are there, tell them to fill out new P.O.'s for those tasks separately, and determine an hourly rate to be charged for every hour spent on those separate tasks. Those separate tasks should be started when you are done with the work paid for by the first P.O.
Be professional! Do the best work you can. Remember, at this point you are an independent contractor. Your work should stand as a testament of what you are capable of as a professional.
Last, when you're done, make sure you give a clear list of what you diagnosed and what you did to fix things. Make sure that the person who authorized the work signs off on it. Don't forget to make a copy! (using their copier, naturally!)
Whew! This water sure is cold!
I was laid off about 7 mos ago. Since that time I have made more money as a consultant than I did in the last year. I kinda needed that push to go it on my own. I have been called in many, many times to deal with problems beyond the skills of my lesser-priced replacement. I have more than gladly helped them. For $130/hr billed in 1/2 hour increments. One note: get a contract signed BEFORE you do anything!
"This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence" - Vyvyan "The Young Ones"
Last place I worked have been calling me all the time afther they dropped my contract, but they didn't demand me to help them.
They just called like "Hey, how are you..." and that sort of smal talk.. and in the middle of the conversation they say "... btw, do you remember "
Just sendt a bill for you'r hard word and expertice.
My ex-girlfriend called me up a couple of nights ago because she needed my talents to work on her setup. I used to get paid for this sort of thing (dinner, massage, her talents on my setup). Should I charge her for that night, or do I have no expectation of compensation?
Reading the replies here, I begin to see now why the tech bust hasn't been over long ago. If you let the company use you like a whore, you will be treated like the whore that you are and you shouldn't expect any better treatment. Unfortunately, the replies to this inquiry confirm that some people don't mind being scabs (i.e. temp workers brought in to obviate the need to hire workers full-time).
... then discover that they really do need somebody around to actually do the work (an indian, not a chief). And as for consulting, well, the fees are pretty stiff.
... "battered spouse" syndrome). Have a little self-respect, otherwise the tech industry will never develop into a profession, on a par with other engineers and architects.
Consulting is one thing, but I draw the line when the client is the company that layed me off in the first place
We made a ton of money back during the 90's. Use the freedom that that doe gives you to resist this kind of exploitation. I do.
Otherwise, it will just be more of the same old, same old. You can count on it. Stop being a whore and think like a responsible human being. Make the companies understand that there are consequences for their actions. That when they hire you, it is a partnership which requires some responsibility to you on their part.
Stop acting like a co-dependent spouse (you know
And I take it as a great compliment when one of my former employers calls for some help. I think you should too. Then again, I know I've been lucky to work for some great people.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
You broke one of the most important rules of employment. Never Work for free! Not only does it assign a zero value to your time, but it assignes a zero value to the time of anyone doing that task.
The second rule you broke, taking a lesson from M$ here, is that if they need you, you've got them exactly where you want the. Grease it up with vaseline and give it to them good and hard, to the tune of at least $100/ hour for skilled IT consulting
Many people have posted that, "You don't want to hurt your chance to use them as a reference." But then again, you don't want them letting your prospective employer that you're a cheap date either.
finally, for the question of returning to any employer as an employee (and not an independant consultant). Remeber this adage... Old Jobs are like old girlfriends, Never go back
This headline/blurb is in response to all of us ripping on ./'s editing & paying for subscriptions posts under the 'Yahoo makes money' story right?
She cannot give you a bad review if you refuse to help *after* you've been laid off. She sounds a little unstable to begin with.
You should have discussed contract/fee up front *before* helping them. You have done them a favor by doing what you've done and they have taken time from you which could have been used to 1) look for another job or 2) help someone else on a contract basis for-pay.
If your ex-boss threatened you in any way (e.g. I'll give you a bad review.. This is your fault anyway... etc), then she is behaving unethically and you should avoid all future contact.
GJC
Gregory Casamento
## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
I charged them through every available orifice for "emergency services." Nice is one thing, but if I am not on the payroll and someone who saw fit to terminate my services calls me out of the blue and arrogantly demands that I fix something they lacked the foresight to correct, they'll pay, yes indeedy they'll pay. :)
They'll agree in advance to a total amount, and have a check for 50% of that amount waiting for me at their door before I cross the threshold of their building. The balance will be due upon completion of the project.
Get off my virtual lawn, you damned virtual kids!
I know as denizens of Western civilization (especially the U.S.), our first reaction is
...
... the golden goose lesson) ... and then were hired as outside consultants later. They ended up making a lot more money as a consultant than as an employee (for the same basic work). One is even getting frequent inquiries by the client about possibly joining them full-time.
... but don't scalp them ... fair market wage.
...
[1] Sue them!
and then
[2] How much can I get?
But I think it pays to think about your situation first. There may be some dynamics you might otherwise overlook.
Case A: Laid Off, Unemployed
If you're having problems finding a job, it may pay not to incite your former boss. You never know when your old firm may get a large project and decide to bring aboard some consultants.
While it hasn't happened to me, I have friends who were laid off, provided some occasional support at reasonable rates (this is *key*
Case B: Laid off, Employed Now
You have some incentive to maintain cordial ties with your old firm. But the incentives are definitely reduced by having current employment. If you hated your old firm and want to maintain loyalty with your current one, I'd just pass or agree under some pretty restrictive terms (i.e. define the total # of hours and compensation). Consulting money is nice but, clearly, your long term prospects are not tied with your old firm, better to focus on your current firm.
Case C: Quit
If you were the one who quit the job, I'd consider providing some support especially if you either [1] really left the firm holding the bag or [2] still have friends at the firm who would otherwise suffer. But make sure to get paid
You'd be surprised how this type of action can result in good karma. I had a friend who quit his job for a higher paying position at a high profile company. Unfortunately, lay-offs happened and, as a high-salary newbie, he was one of the first to go. His boss at the old firm - he couldn't rehire my friend - went out of his way to call a few of his competitors to recommend my friend - he did this primarily because he appreciated how my friend provided support (many times for gratis) for several months after he left. My friend got a job based on one of these recommendation.
Case D: Fired
No way in hell. Or make sure it's enough to pay for your big screen plasma TV, your sizable tab at the local watering hole, and possibly a year's rent
Seriously. You did work for the company. How much did they pay?
-- "At Microsoft, quality is job 1.1" -- PC Magazine, Nov. 1994
After I was laid off (which wasn't that bad - one month's notice, no need to do work after notice. Could've been because I was expecting my second kid, and they were only laying people off to lower their costs so they could be bought out by another company) my supervisor attempted to perform some work on our old novell 4.1 server. The server stopped responding completely after a reboot, and they called me a day after when he finally decided he couldn't recover it.
By then I was consulting for another company at $25/hr, so I simply said I'd charge them that rate. He agreed, I came at 8pm and finished rebuilding the server, restoring data and users about 4am. Sent them a $200 bill, and got the check shortly thereafter.
He called a few times after for info about the isdn internet connection and other miscellaneous stuff, but didn't request that I come and fix things, and the calls were generally fairly short. Since they were nice in allowing me to later get on the router and download the configuration for another job later, I didn't think it was a big deal.
The key is that they need to learn the connection between a smoothly working network and the cost of maintaining one. You, by not asking for payment up front, are reinforcing their idea that networks are free, and the maintenance is free. It's the same reason people don't back up until they've had their first data loss and find out that it'll cost 10x as much to recover some of their data. Same with virus protection, etc. Quality costs, and she needs to know it.
-Adam
If its my last employer, I wouldn't even toss them a life saver. Besides being two of the most disagreeable, mean, and mentally-disruptive individuals I've ever seen, they had a habit of forgetting to pay us with any regularity. 6 weeks is a long time between paychecks for a college student. Imagine working for a senile, grouchy old man and his bipolar wife. I do have to thank them for really driving me to get the hell out and try working for myself.
Any of my other employers though, and I'd bend over backwards to help. I wouldn't even ask for transportation costs for the 2 hour drive down there. If it wasn't for school, I'd still be working for them (I'd like to hope).
As some of the other posters have said, treat it like business. You have a service that they require. Simple supply and demand. If you happen to know the going rate for the service, tell them that is your charge, and make them sign an estimate sheet so that later on if they decide they don't want to pay, you can use that in small claims court. On the esitmate sheet have a disclaimer stating that the signer agrees to pay for the services estimated, even if there are discrepancies in the time estimated, and also agrees to pay all associated costs in said work, including transportation and parts. Cover all your bases before walking in the door. If they say they can get someone else for cheaper, remind them that you are familiar with the system and that kind of familiarity will save you time over someone else, so while their rate may be cheaper, they will end up spending more time and costing more money just getting familiar with the system.
.sig: It's what's for dinner.
I had a similar situation -- I was laid off the 1st of the year. In the following months, my previous firm contacted me regularly, mostly asking how I was doing, letting me know they wanted me back & were looking for ways to accomplish that, etc.
:)
Then one day I got a call from them. They had a customer who wanted some work done, but it was such a small job that just drafting the agreement would be more expensive than the job was worth. They contacted me and told me if I wanted to freelance the job, they'd put me in touch with the customer. I accepted it (of course). it turned out that it was too small for even a freelance charge, but I answered the guys question and it generated positive advertising for my previous firm.
A month later, I got another call from them -- another freelance job - this one was for the wife of the head of my old firm. I again accepted it and his wife was happy with my results.
Then my old manager called. He didn't have a freelance offer this time -- he wanted some advice on how to collect unemployment! (yeah, business got so bad the managers were being let go...) So I was very helpful & supportive of him too -- told him where to go to sign up, what the process was, etc.
Then I got one last call -- now I'm working full-time for my old firm again. They were so happy with my attitude and willingness to help them out even after letting me go that they found a spot for me & I'm gainfully employed again -- with my full benefits just like I never left (3 weeks vacation, I'm vested, etc). Admittedly, it WAS a paycut from my old salary, but in this market, I'm not complaining
Sorry about all the rambling. I guess what I'm trying to say in a nutshell is: Don't burn your bridges. Having a positive attitude and being willing to help them out can never hurt - it can only help. Even if they don't have any openings, they may hear of other firms that need people & could suggest you -- or give you a positive review when a future employer starts checking references. You never know when someone may be talking to them and your name may come up...
First, figure out what you used to cost them an hourly basis (before tax, and including what they spent on benefits and office space), usually this is around 200% of your take-home pay. Then send their accounting department an invoice for the hours worked.
If your old boss calls to complain about the bill, just tell her (if it was the case) that there was nothing in the conversation to imply you were working for free, and you simply charged a reasonable amount based on the hours worked, and what you used to be paid, including expenses. If she won't accept this, you don't want to be taking her calls any more in any case, unless you think you might actually get your job back. If you think there is a chance of getting your job back, it might be smoother to call her to discuss payment arrangements for the consulting you did before sending an invoice.
If accounting asks for your IRS Tax ID number, just give your SSN. Assuming they pay you, at the end of the year, report the income as 'sole proprietor' income on your taxes, and that's the end of it.
If they don't want to pay you, then the next time she calls for help, say you're happy to drive over to the office and roll up your sleeves, as long as there is a check waiting for you to pick up. If not, unless she documents a promise to pay (email ok, fax with signature is better), just say you're sorry, but you can't do any more free work.
She may be frustrated at first, but if you're firm, straightforward, and businesslike about being paid for your work, you'll get the respect you deserve.
If you were hurt while on this job, then you would not get the benefit of any plans that you may have had while you were employed there.
Plus I see nothing wrong with helping out with advice a few weeks after a job, as long as you left on decent terms, but if you have to go to the office to do something, then you should be getting paid! Send them a reasonable invoice.
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
You had a good business opportunity come your way. Many a successful consultant have started this way. You work for a company, you are laid off by shortsighted management, they realize their mistake a little too late, they call on you. What do you do? You could be chump, and show them that they did right by laying off your immature ass, or you could turn it into a profitable business opportunity. You have the upper hand in the negotiation. Come up with a good rate (twice your old rate is a good place to start), then negotiate the minimum amount of billable time. Depending on the type of work you do it could be anything from eight hours, to forty hours, to the entirety of an ongoing project. Be creative. This is were the money is made, and were you can establish lasting recurring billing cycles. If the work that they are asking you to do is part of an ongoing project and you feel that there is a chance that they'll call on you again, negotiate for the remainder of the contract. Sweeten the deal. Profit off their shortsightedness, but don't kill the goose, and above all realize that you are now your own person, you don't need them, they need you.
I am a virus, put me in your
When your ex-employer calls, it's not because they are doing you a favor, it's because they don't have any better options. The worst thing you can do is band-aid them back together again for peanuts, every time there is a crisis. That helps no one (not even the ex-employer) in the long run.
It's really all about money. I don't see any problem at all working for an ex-employer, if the deal is right. I see nothing wrong with asking 2X for going back to the ex-employer as a "real" employee (your old job back, on salary), or 4X as a consultant. If you were laid off, then your employer's "stability issues" justify the premium.
Consider the following:
(1) If you view this as an ongoing opportunity, with the potential for more work, then you market yourself to the old employer as a consultant, using the 4X rate, billed by the day, not by the hour. If their LAN is down and they are reduced to calling ex-employees, you can rest assured that routine maintenance has been seriously negelcted. That's how you fill in the rest of the day(s).
(2) If you view this as a one-shot deal, then your price needs to be something high enough so that you can ignore their attitude as you laugh your way to the bank. $3K per day or fsck-off! Laugh if you like, but this is not a whole lot different than the price they will get local consultants. It may not seem that way at first glance, but they will surely find a way to burn through $3K in billable hours, just trying to figure out how the LAN works, while they pitch an engagement to "redesign" or "optimize" it.
My story is somewhat similar to the original post, but doesn't relate to a former employer, rather, a former girlfriend (of several years), and her employer.
She worked at a high-volume, high-tech print shop which I had written software for some two years prior to our breakup. Some 8 months after our break up, she called me up and asked if I could troubleshoot a problem with their LAN, and consequently, problems they were having accessing the local side of the software I had written for them ( web based file/job management & tracking app for their print ready graphics files, some 250+ uploads a day).
My response was simple, direct, and immediate: $5,000, up front.
Suffice it to say, I was never bothered again.
Moral of my story? Sure, your former 'employer' can ask for all the help in the world, and it's totally up to you if you give it to them, or, as any right-minded American would do, SELL it to them.
I know how much my time is worth, but it sounds like you're a little too naive.
I guess part of it depends on the circumstances of your departure. I left my last company 8 months ago after being there for 6 years. I still get IMs, emails, etc from ex-coworkers about once a month asking how something worked or how to fix a problem they're having. I never thought twice about helping out, but I did leave the company on good terms.
Now if the McDonalds I worked at for a day needed help figuring out how to cook fries, I'll pass.
They can't give you a 'bad' review, but they can also not give you a 'praised review'. When new exmployer cals your old company and gets a generic review they will know it nots a good one.
In my particular situation, as of about two weeks ago, I would have to take a totally mercenary approach. In other words, I'd swallow the money, but I'd hold my nose. For those of us who have house payments, etc. it's the only option.
But now that I have a new job, if my old employer came crawling back now, I would literally laugh at them with the most ridiculous Dr. Evil laugh I can muster. I'm totally serious. My layoff was completely political (well, partially, because she did have to reduce headcount), and was the most harmful choice my manager could have made. For her team, the company, and my family. I have nothing but bitterness. I would only help her if I had no choice.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
In 1999 the company I worked for closed the local office and offered me a job at another location. After considering the offer including the 20% raise in pay I declined. A couple of weeks after the closure I got a call asking if I would help train the new manager. I submitted a proposal outlining my terms including hourly rate, daily rate, retainer rate, mileage charges, etc. After everything was said and done I provided consulting services to the company for over two years and earned nearly as much as I had as a full time employee for far fewer hours.
The results you get will depend upon the perceived value of your services and your professionalism. I would ignore any assumption that work be performed for free. Simply state when asked to perform a service that you would be glad to provide the services for a fee. Name an amount or an hourly rate that you think is reasonable. Also make sure that any requests for work are approved at the proper level of authority.
Remember if you don't value the services you provide, no one else is going to.
But then again they were not so nice to you when they gave you the pink slip now were they? Maybe they were and you felt like you owed them for the "generous" severance package you got.
Rule Number 1: Never, ever, ever help out your ex-employer, unless they are willing to pay a very generous fee for your services which they clearly dismissed in the first place. you might even teach them a lesson, that people are not just numbers on a balance sheet. Or maybe you won't. But at least you will not leave with the sense that you just got abused by the same people twice over.
To add insult to injury I didn't get paid much of my accumulated vacation time. I'd been foregoing taking my time as we were in such a crunch, got promised it would carry over, etc. Due to poor record-keeping on my part (and being young and stupid) I didn't pursue the issue much but wrote it all off as lesson-learned.
Anyway a few moths later I got a call from a friendly former coworker asking me, in a very stilted way, about some security systems I had written, what was the password, etc. I picked up pretty fast that this wasn't actually a social call, that my friendly co-worker wasn't alone in the room, that they wanted me aware of such, and they were being pressured to make this call.
So, I told them no, I didn't recall the exact passwords but I was sure I could break into what I'd secured and would be happy to do so under contract. I then quoted them an outrageous hourly rate, said as I was unhappy with my former employer I' double that, and no assurance of how long it would take me. My friendly former co-worker politely thanked me and said they'd "pass it on".
Sure enough an hour later I got a call asking me to come in ASAP. So I did. I got them to confirm the rate in writing, refused to give an estimate, and sat down. And played games, very visibly, for two days, until the sum I felt I was owed in vacation time was met. About 10 minutes after that point, just as I was finishing up my report, the finance guy came in with a pre-written check (they knew perfectly well what was going on) and asked me for the password.
I handed him my report, told him I'd call from the bank with the password as soon as I'd cashed the check. He balked at that but I pointed out that many of my payroll checks had "bounced" but had been covered by the bank, I wanted to be sure there'd by no awkward problems with this one. He threatened to void the check if I didn't give them the passwords, I said fine I'd be no worse off then before, and if he didn't get out of my way I'd call the police for imprisonment. He gave way and I left.
So, 30 minutes later from the bank I called, told him the password used on everything, and then took some friends out for drinks, including the friendly former co-worker who had slipped out early. By the way the friendly coworker resigned the next day, the nasty Sr, person lasted another few months, the whole place went under a few years later.
Oh, and a few times later I was in situations where Sr. folks from that place were applying for jobs and I was in the decision process, each time I knifed 'em.
Whats the deal with europe using a comma in place of a period when dealing with money? Its almost as annoying as your backwards system of YYDDMM instead of MMDDYY.
FUCK YOU!
Nero-burning ROM for Linux!
Don't get me wrong, after I was laid off in Jan 01, I was pretty pissed. But it does not pay to burn a bridge you do not have to. I have done work for them and other ex-employers and we both have been happy. But definitly charge them. In the long run it really does not help to carry a grudge and can be a source of revenue.
I grew up in the Fulda Gap, where did you?
As Cliff stated, you don't want to burn any bridges. Even those that you desperately want to burn, should be maintained. You never know who or when you will need someone in your future.
At the same time do not let anyone take advantage of you. You said that this was a former employer. This immediately releases you of ANY responsibility or obligation to them, you don't work for them anymore!
This could be a slightly grey area if you had recently, within a couple of weeks, left the job on your own accord and the failed system was your responsibility. But, even here there is no REAL responsibility, simply a matter of your own moral feelings on the matter. But, you stated that this emplyer became former 5 months ago. No matter what the reason for your departure there is absolutely positively no obligation on your part after this period of time.
The next time you are presented with this situation, stop for a moment and think. First what are your feelings? Simply, do you want to do it or not? Secondly, review your current situation. Are you working somewhere else and are really to busy to spare the time or perhaps it may be a conflict of interest if you are working for a competitor now. In your case, you stated that you are unemployed so these would not be a problem here. You have time and there are no conflicts.
So, having decided that you can do it and that you want to do it, the next step is to specify the terms of a short term contract. Yes, contract. Even if it is only verbal you are still entering into a contract with this company. You need to come to an agreement on the type and amount of reimbursement for your time. You also need to agree to a set of milestones, if you will, that will be used to determine the successful completion of the contract.
For example, the situation that you related should have gone like this... Yes Jane, I am confident that I can resolve your problem. As it happens I am available to do consulting work of this kind, right now. My fee is $100 per hour for this type of work and I do charge travel time at that rate.
Janes response will likely be: "Wow, I don't want to pay that much." To which you should reply: "I certainly understand that but, that is a competitive rate in the industry and it is what I charge. I suspect from what you have told me so far that it might take 6 hours to fix your problem." At that point she will either say flat out no, and move on to another consultant, or she will say that she has to get back to you. This will give her time to get approval for the expenditure and also get estimates from other consultants. If she calls back make sure that she is in agreement to pay you for fixing the problem and that she fully expects to pay at LEAST $600.
Of course, Jane might decide to try to bully you when you advise her of your rate. She might say something like: "What?? $100 an hour?? No way. You built this system and it has never be right! It's your responsibility and I expect you to fix it immediately! I'm not paying you to fix your own mistakes. In fact, if you don't fix it, we will probably sue you!"
Your response to this should be: "I understand that you feel it is my responsibility, Jane. However, I do not work for you anymore therefore, it is NOT my responsibility. I'm sorry that you feel that I did not build the system properly however, the fact that it has worked for several months without me suggests that it was in fact, working properly. Even so, it is still not my responsibility anymore. But, I would be glad to look at it for you, as a consultant.
Finally, if Jane says that they are going to sue you, end the discussioin right then and there. Say: "I am afraid that, under the circumstances, I will not be able to assist you with your problem. I wish you the best of luck with it. Thank you for calling." click.... Naturally, this assumes that you do indeed not have any contractual liability to the problem. In your specific case, after 5 months, you didn't.
Here's how to bring up the topic of compensation if you're not talking to a particularly helpful one:
Ex. employers are just that, you don't have a contract with them, and they are not obligated to pay you. Always discuss payment before even hinting you'll 'help them out of a bind'!!! If they really need you make sure they comensate you, they will be less likely to call you daily thinking you will help them out.
I'm in a similar situation, but not quite.
I work for a microscopic consultant company. We have four clients. Thanks to the economic climate one client has dropped us, one client has cut down on consultant fees and one client wants to use us, but has no budget. The fourth client is still going strong, I hope (I work for the other three). Our budget is stretched to the limit.
What to do? I'm sitting on my ass (with a relatively large paycheck) two days of the week, at least. We decided to use my time to make a (large) prototype web service for client three (the ones who want us but have no budget), hoping that they'll accept it for free in return for paying us to flesh it out.
Essentially, I have put in >200 hours of work (so far) without any revenue for the company. Am I their bitch? Am I just sensible? Should I seek other employement? (That last bit was rethoric. I haven't gotten any replies in the last four months...)
Suppose a former employer contacted me, wanting some help... Would I go "Of course. $100 an hour, minimum charge four hours." or would I go "Yeah! Sure! I'll do it all day Sunday, no charge!". Depressingly enough I think I would go with the latter, hoping they are thinking of rehiring me.
I choose to remain celibate, like my father and his father before him.
Assuming nothing of that sort, you could do a couple of different things. If you're really trying to start a contracting gig, send a follow-up letter pointing out that you solved their problem quickly and easily, you're in business, this one was pro bono to show your talent, but in the future they would need to pay you. Quote hourly and retainer rates. If you just want to feel morally superior, send them a bill. Twice your previous hourly rate sounds right. Include all travel time. Take pride in the fact that you pay your debts, even if they don't.
If they don't pay, you print "Past Due" on the bill next month, and send it again. Add 1.5% per month as a past due fee.
If they still don't pay after 90 days, you file a claim in small claims court. Very seldom do things reach that point. If you go to court, and you did the work, you'll get a judgement in your favor. Then either they pay, or you find out where their bank account is and get an order attaching it.
I have to tell this to some of my artists friends now and then. They're always doing little jobs for small businesses and not getting paid. All have been paid by the second invoice.
The one time I went back and did a job for a previous employer, I charged them about a thousand dollars for a weekend. And that was in the 1970s.
Surprisingly, you won't be hated for this. You'll b e respected.
How do you separate "work" from being a "kind" person?
I often to favors for others. Most recently, a friend who attended grad school with me called panicking during the night and said that he couldn't feel his toes.
No one else was home at his house, so I had to walk him through the steps of logically evaluating the situation to determine the cause of the numbness in his lower appendages.
I didn't even think twice about whether or not to charge him. He was in great pain, so I billed his Visa card for $1,200.00 after diagnosing the problem -- he had left the window open and a cold front had arrived over the night. Without a blanket (it was late August), his toes had nearly froze.
True story. But after spending 14 years in grad school, I'm just not a nice guy anymore. I wouldn't think twice about charging people for services rendered. I even charge the people at Blockbuster Video when I return the video before it's due since I paid for the full time, and since they charge me for a late fee if it's not back on time. The best part is they usually compensate me for early returns!
Department of Physics and Atmospheric Science, Dalhousie University, Halifax, N.S., Canada, B3H 3J5
The point is that, not only is your time valuable now, but the knowledge you have that no one in the company presently has makes your work that much more valuable. The difficulty comes when balancing the desire to screw your former employer and making a fair deal that may help you more in the long run.
You sound like someone that didn't get PAID...or was it LAID?
There is nothing inherently safe about liberty. That's why so many people died protecting it.
Sometimes they are thinking/saying that the whole shit was caused by you when was there, or that you have made a time bomb, so this could be a chance to show them what is going wrong.
And, if now you are working in consulting, may be you can get a new customer.
While this has not happenned to me since this current layoff - one month ago, I'd entertain the opportunity.
I helped my last company for several weeks during transition into a new job about 3 years ago. It paid off for me, because now when I go looking ofr recommendations, its easy to get them from the past employer.
That said, you need to get paid some kind of money...
I usually decide on some fixed hourly rate, and leave it at that. The other thing for me is that there is a com[promise between getting paid, and being responsible. A friend of mine poiinted this out: the more you charge the greater the percecption that you have something tied to the outcome of the work.
So, I tend not to charge large hourly rates especially, if I'm sick of the old employer. I dont want them to feel like they can just call me any time. it needs to cost them enough, but not so much that they think they can just have me any time.
Fuck , I ain't helping no ex employer!!! No matter what they pay me. My ex boss was such a prick that it still kinda makes me sick.
It would appear that you've been played. She was desperate for someone to resolve the issue and your name came to mind. Your quite in your rights to say no, I suspect she would try and scare you if you did say no, but this is purely second guessing.
I hope you were remunerated for this, if not take it further.
I do wonder if she was a good boss or not at the time from your posting.
You had no obligation to that former employer. They requested your services and you obliged. Now send them a bill for your time. That isn't being spitefull or vengefull. It's called comerce. They requested your services and you have a right to charge for it. You probably won't get paid but they'll get the message. Next time they call tell them up front that your rates are $65/hour durring business hours and $95/hour nights and weekends. If they don't like that they can call someone else. Don't bend over for them just because they ask you to! Being charitable and giving your time away for free is not a bad thing, but give it to those you choose to give it to (like non-profits or charities, or friends), but not to those who intimidate you into doing it. Stand up for yourself.
-=-=-=-=- osjedi uses Debian GNU/Linux. -=-=-=-=-
I've been the (almost) exact same situation as you mentioned. I very politely asked my employer to pay me "something" for my time. I explained that I knew the company was in trouble and that I wasn't looking to get rich or take advantage of a bad situation but that I needed to receive compensation for my time. My former boss accused me of trying to "screw him" he then called other former employees that I had an attitude problem.
The point of this is, if the person isn't willing to pay you then he/she don't respect you.
When punk rock is outlawed, only outlaws will have punk rock.
Businesses are a for-profit corporation. Do not forget this, every when dealing with them. If they can get free resources, then that will be more profitable to the business, and they will continue to use these free resources as much as they can in order to maximize profits.
If you are no longer employed, there is no gain (profit or otherwise) for you in doing a free favour for a for-profit business. The business won't return the favour. They will be too "overworked", and unable to spare the resources to return such a favour.
Now perhaps you forgot to document something when you left a company, and you could quickly (i.e. not use your most valuable asset, time) answer the question. Perhaps you felt that your actions would improve your reference from said manager to help you secure a job in the near future. Those are reasonable cases, but in general, it is a waste of your time/resources to work for the company that does not employ you. You need to concentrate on finding gainful employment.
I'm replying to this as I sit in my former employer's building troubleshooting their network/ other setup because of their new computers.
I worked here for 3 years as a graphic artist making 10-13$/hr. until I finally quit because they always thought I was doing things behind their back or had an alterior motive.
I pressed for 3 years to get new computers with no luck (I was stuck on a windows 95 P1-133 with 32mb RAM and a P3-450 with 64mb RAM- note that I was working with photoshop and illustrator). They finally decided to upgrade to Dells after I left (because the new people didn't know anything about the old versions of software or how to handle a crash) so they called me back to not only advise on their purchases, but also to install them because they didn't want to pay a real computer guy 50$/hr to do it.
They wouldn't pay me extra for my services or pay me under the table, but I did it anyway. At least I learned a lot about networking XP with 95/98 and other stuff.
I'm also wasting half the day because I can and no one's here. So I'm just fucking around on slashdot and the like. Hooray.
...spike
Ewwwwww, coconut...
McDonalds keeps calling me during rush hour ;P
[...]like if you get slapped, turn the other cheek, as Jesus once said...[...]
Yeah, but Jesus never had to fix a LAN.
Boss: "My Lord, could you get our 250-node token ring VAX LAN back online? You'll need to check every inch of the coax cable, duct-taping nicked insulation as needed."
Jesus: "Fuck that!"
waiting to get smited,
horati0
The neutrality of this sig is disputed.
My ex boss was on the phone with the FBI telling them I hacked the network and took down the webserver (nationwide ISP with ONE webserver).
One of the othe employees called me and told me (good friend) and advised that I call him. So I did, and within 30 seconds the server was up and all was dandy. I didn't get a thankyou, just a "If you do it again I'm going through with the FBI complaint".
The dumb ass he replaced me with switched out the BSD kernel for the GENERIC one which couldn't handle the apache requests without running out of file handles. Of course it's all my fault.
So consider yourself lucky she called for help. It could have been much worse.
it might help to remember this:
No matter how much you feel like that network is your baby, your creation, and no matter how well you know it... it's not yours, and you are only responsible for it because they are PAYING you to be responsible for it.
If you leave, you are no longer responsible.
Now, if you leave to another bigger, better job, and things are going well for you, and you have no hard feelings, and the new guy calls up with a simple question or two... answering it for free is not wrong; that's just being a good person.. keeping your doors open.
If they want actual labor from you, make them pay. If you feel the need to be generous, give them a reduced rate.
On the other hand, if they terminated your employment.. fired or laid off, you should NOT answer any questions. You should flatly point out that your responsibility for their system ended the moment you were fired, and that you are not really interested in helping them out.
I've seen the posts saying 'invoice them.' Don't. Invoicing them at some rate you dreamt up and to which they did not agree is simply unprofessional. If you want some compensation for this, I suggest that you contact your ex-boss, for whom you did this favor, and ask her for a letter of recommendation.
Should this happen again in the future, express your gratitude for being offered the work and then politely inform them of your rate (or a flat fee). Spell out any minimums (e.g., 4 or 8 hour minimum), whether the billing starts from the time you begin work or if it is portal-to-portal (i.e., includes travel time), and payment schedule (e.g., downpayments, terms -- like net 30, payment in advance, etc.). If they balk at reasonable terms, then be polite but firm and tell them that you cannot accept the work.
If you do your ex-employer a favor, then you should make sure that it was you that decided to. I have, on occasion, sent ex-employers e-mails warning them of bugs and product updates for systems that I set up while under their employ. I don't expect to be paid for that in anything other than good will.
like if you get slapped, turn the other cheek, as Jesus once said
Jesus's situation would have been more analogous if Pontius Pilate had demanded that Jesus do unpaid work for him after the crucifixion. Besides, Jesus was not always in fear of losing his job to a cut-rate, H1-B messiah brought in from some third-world country. He'd have gotten pretty tired of being slapped around had he been in the computer industry.
If I got a call from a former employer asking about something like that or begging to recover a server that took a shit, I'll tell them "Not only no, but FUCK NO!" Unless of course it was a company that I liked working for, then it's "$150 an hour, four hour minimum and have the funds ready when I get there."
Unfortunately, you won't really be able to bill your ex-boss for work you did in the past (Past consideration -- anything your boss gives you now is probably considered a "gift"). However, if this happens next time, anything goes.
Massive networking attempt for friends
Several years ago, I had a small contract to do flash design for the website for a small indie film. The pay structure was divided 25%, 25%, and 50% for the final. The first two were fine, and the project was going smoothly. After finishing the project though, I kept getting the run around about my final payment.
Eventually they had the premiere of the movie, and I was invited. At this premiere I was told that, sorry, they had no more money, and couldn't pay me. They had overestimated the $$ in their bank, and it turns out the last of their money was spent on the refreshments for their premiere party. Sucks to be me, but I didn't counter them legally, it was less than $1000 and I just wrote it off as a loss and broke all connections.
About a year later, the same people thought that they were finally getting a bite on their movie, and decided they desperately needed to update their website. They contacted me and asked why they had never received the source code for their movie, as per the contract--they needed it so that so-and-so's cousin, who 'knew flash' could update the website. I told them, because I had never gotten paid, also per the contract. When they didn't pay me, I said, the contract was broken.
At this point they got really upset and brought in so-and-so's uncle the lawyer and told me that what I had made was a piece of crap and the money they already paid more than covered the value of the project. And that if I continued to resist, they would sue me.
This was on my birthday. I've never had a bad birthday since. No matter what happens, I will always remember how this one was worse.
Eventually, after spending half my birthday on the phone, I knew what I had to do. Like I said, the original amount just wasn't enough to call a lawyer about, and I decided this wasn't either. Also, I had no money and even if I won this case it would be on the other side of the country which was just more money out of my pocket. So I told them, ok, I'll give you the source code exactly as it is right now, and you'll leave me alone for good and neither one of us ever talks to the other one. Ok, they said.
What was my trick? My code (and my flash movies are highly dependant on actionscript) was completely uncommented. It would have been a beast for me to figure out, and more so for somebody else that knew flash as well as I did. And much more so for so-and-so's cousin that 'knew flash'.
In the end, they got off my back, I wasn't sued on my birthday, and I came out feeling like I had won anyway. Because they were never able to figure out my source, and were never able to update their website. (and incidentally, never sold their movie)
Punctanym: alternate spelling of words using punctuation or numerals in place of some or all of its letters; see 'leet'
Tech work is business. Working at a company is business. It's amazing how many people forget this. Sure you may have great colleagues or have had great colleagues, but your at work earning a wage. Yes, you can enjoy doing your work, but your still working for an employer earning a wage.
Likewise, your relationship is predominantly a business relationship with your boss or ex boss, not friendship, it's important to remember the type of relationship you have with these people whether on good or bad terms, it's about $$.
So when your no longer working for your employer, you shoudl ask yourself what is the nature of your relationship with the ex-boss.
Jesus said "turn the other cheek"? Well, he also said "Oh woman, what have you to do with me?"
send her a bill for your time at an applicable consulting fees for your area. Send it registered so she has to sign for it. Note your hours and time of day of your response to her request for help. If she does not respond, send a copy of your original letter to her manager and the applicable billing department with an applicable cover letter covering your request for payment. You should have asked for a fee up front.
clancey
Doing poorly documented hacks that it's difficult for the next guy to pick up on is not something to be proud of.
You are bang on with your consulting fee... but saying you can't wait until it happens again is almost malicious.
A better solution would be for you to tell them, as you should have earlier, that there are some non-standard things you've done, and that it would be best if you could sit down for a few hours with someone and walk them through your customizations. Get them to pay you for this. That way they are aware of the problem, as they should be, and you have acted responsibly.
There's no benefit in burning bridges unnecessarily, but there's also no benefit in doing work for an ex-employer gratis. Not only do you (obviously) not get paid for your trouble, but you now have a "sucker" sticker on your head. They'll call again, and you'll probably help them again. For nothing.
It's quite frankly outrageous that an ex-employer would call you up and demand that you do work for her. At the very least this shows a serious lack of professionalism on the part of your former employer. Perhaps it's best that you're no longer working for her anymore after all.
If an ex-employer calls you up and asks you to do some work (that is not explicitly included as part of an exit package), then you tell them you are more than happy to do it ... and your hourly rate.
I would also bill them double my old wage.
Charge them double the 'standard' consultants rate for the work. You have expert knowledge of their systems and are well worth the premium.
Many people think that IT personell are some kind of running clerks at a cafe. These ones have absolutely no respect for your brains, your experience and your sweet. More, they tend to hide their incompetence, ignorance and stupidity behind a mask of arrogance and superiority. If your ex-boss called you demanding something, the first thing you should have done was to say "Cool but that will cost you US$XXXX...". If he comes up with threats and dubious statements about your past work, you better send him fast to Hell and tell him to forget your name and your phone.
Beware that you open-hearthed behaviour could have caused more damage rather than help to yourself. There are times when old bosses start to talk too much about their ex-employees as "smarties that left hacks and bombs to spoil our work". And when you come back and do something in half-second, they may try to use it to make a serious accusation that you tried to crook them. While I have never seen such stories getting to courts, there are pretty real examples how ex-bosses tried to extort cheap work out of their ex-employees by playing such scenarios. Personally, many years ago, I was in such situation and things nearly ended in a violent fight inside a "respectable" commercial bank.
maybe this should be poll.
how often does this happen?
like if you get slapped, turn the other cheek, as Jesus once said
/. has given up its usual secular nature, and we have decided to listen to The Lord Baby Jesus (c)(tm) I thought I might find some other nuggets of Jesus Widsom (TM)(C) to follow, brothers please pray with me now:
Now that
As a lesson to those who have the audacity to show physical love for the same gender, God incinerated the genitals, mouths and every other orifice involved in such sexual practices in the towns of Sodom and Gomorra (Genesis 19:24-25).
As a lesson to those who are fat and sloppy, God struck a town of gluttons with a vicious plague which made that last drumstick taste none-too-good and wiped out every living person (Numbers 11:33-34).
As a lesson to youngsters who fail to be seen and not heard, God sent a bear to maul to death a couple dozen children who had teased a bald man (2 Kings 2:23-24).
During one particularly bad mood, God threw the lessons out the window and killed every man, woman, child and infant on the planet (except Noah's family) with a Great Flood (Genesis 7:23).
God told the Israelites to kill all the men and rape the women and children in the towns they invaded (Deuteronomy 20:13-16).
God told the Israelites to take any child who dared to disobey his parents to the town square and hurl stones at his body and head until the tot's corpse was lifeless (Deuteronomy 21:18-21).
Jesus told the apostles that He had not come to destroy the law of the prophets of old, rather, He had come to fulfill that law (Matthew 5:17).
Jesus approved of his Father's command that children who curse their parents are to be put to death (Matthew 15:3-4).
Jesus chastised the Pharisees for failing to kill those children who defied their parents' commands (Mark 7:9-13).
Jesus told us we are to live our lives in fear of God for God has the power not only to kill us, but to torture us forever in Hell (Luke 12:5).
The smell of blood and roasted corpses was pleasing to God, who especially enjoyed the aroma after the Great Flood (Genesis 8:21)
,br>
Jesus told the disciples to bring before Him any man who didn't believe in Him, and to violently slaughter the non-believer while Jesus watched (Luke 19:27)
Jesus killed one man by having his body eaten by a swarm of worms because the man failed to give Jesus His due (Acts 12:23).
Jesus struck a Jew blind for thwarting His teachings (Acts 13:8-11).
He struck a man dumb for failing to listen well (Luke 1:20).
He took the lives of a husband and wife by scaring them to death for not forking over all the money they made on a real estate transaction (Acts 5:1-10).
During one particularly temperamental time when Jesus was hungry, He even killed a fig tree for failing to bear figs, even though Jesus knew figs weren't in season (Mark 11:12-14).
Those who practice sexual self-gratification are to chop off their arms. Those who have sexual thoughts for people other than their spouses are to gouge out their eyes (Mark 9:43-47).
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)."
Come Judgment Day, Sinners shall be gathered together and hurled into a furnace of fire where there will be uncontrollable wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:41-42, 50)
Entire cities of people who don't believe will suffer a fate worse than that of Sodom and Gomorra (Mark 6:11).
Jesus told us that God, who we already knew is subject to violent episodes, will take "vengeance on them that know not God" by burning them forever "in flaming fire" (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).
Jesus, Himself, admitted that he is subordinate to the Father who rules over Him (1 Corinthians 11:3)
So my brothers, next time you think to yourself What would Jesus Do? RUN (dont walk) to your bible -- there are great lessons to be had.
More information can be found @ landoverbaptist.com
My last employer was a non-profit that still hosts some of my web work that I list at the top of my resume... the guy that replaced me is only part time and doesn't really have the time to learn my system... and if I don't help him out, that increases the likelihood of the group deciding to scrap my work and replace it with some pre-packaged deal... so when they need help, time permitting, I help out as much as I can because 1) it's a non-profit and 2) I still need the code online as a demonstration of my work...
But that's just me... in your case, I would have asked for a consulting fee...
http://starboard.flowtheory.net/
Man are you ever weak and pathetic. People like you are the reason why IT workers are unemployed when an ex-employer can phone you up for free support and you roll over and give it. Your nickname was probably 'bitch' behind your back and 'good little bitch' to your face...
You're worth what you're paid
The author doesn't give the circumstances of his unemployment. Did he quit, was he laid off, took another job that didn't work, or was he fired. That would have some effect. If there is mutual hatred it depends on whether you want to be considered the better person or if it would be "throwing pearls after swine" (is this only the beginning of a free computer helpline so the ex-boss can avoid doing what is needed).
If it was something trivial (a minute or two) I wouldn't charge. If I left under good terms (did the layoff come from the boss or from corporate central?) I would probably continue to help and ask to be rehired at the first opening.
Depending on what it was beyond that, I would ask them to fax a P.O. or simple agreement that they would pay or consider me rehired for the necessary period.
By submitting to her outgrageous request, you have only made increased the probability that such demands will be made in the future. Not only by her, but by other employers.
If that happens to you again, take control of the situation. Don't just ask for consulting fees, demand them. Require them to purchase a four-hour block of time (at $125/hour or more) prior to beginnng any work. Then, with the check in hand (you may even want to cash it first), start working.
Do not allow this company to treat you like a serf.
A long time ago, I worked for a very small place that sold integrated systems for vertical markets. It was *small* - just myself and the owner, and when the day came that the owner started using the phrases "cash flow difficulties" and "your paycheck" in the same sentence, I promptly found other employment.
... err, "customers", yeah, that's the word :) who had bought the systems we sold, but that one place had copped a major attitude.
For several months after the company folded, the customers called me to come out and fix their systems. Most of the customers were very good about it, and I was happy to be able to help them. One place, though, was a real bear.
To start with, they had bought the computers from somebody else, who never bothered with the software. The machines were constantly doing the crash-n-burn thing, and the shoddy software that my boss wrote didn't help things much. They were also in a rather bad neighborhood, one where a single white girl was decidedly not safe after dark. Lastly, they were going through bankruptcy too, so they had zero money to pay for anything.
So, given these, they had the gall to call and *demand* that I drive into the city, during rush hour, to fix their system. As for payment, they were not going to pay me at all - I guess they figured that the pitiful salary that I had made while working for my boss was plenty enough.
I tried, too, really I did. After spending about 2 hours to get past the first tollbooth en route in, I gave up, took the first exit, and then spent another two hours driving home. I had no problem with helping the other poor dumb suckers
Needless to say, I never heard from them again, thankfully.
Lemon curry?
middle finger if there aint no cash
I had worked for a company as a database programmer for a number or years, and was offered a better position at another company. After giving 2 months notice, and training my 'replacement', away I went... Almost immediately after I left, they came to me, and said they needed one final project done. I told them $50 an hour, they said no, we'll give you a flat fee of $1000... I agreed, pretending to be hesitant... 10 hours later, the project was done, and they had 'bargained' themselves out of an extra $500 ;)
Moral of the story, your ex-bosses will always look for once last chance to short-change you. Find a way to use that against them and capitalize on their greed.
Something like this happened to me a number of years ago. I was working at a student job, managing a small network, destop publishing and other stuff. I was the computer guru for a large bookstore near campus. I had helped a friend of mine get a similar job, and we worked together. My friend was, in his youth, fairly arrogant. Our boss had failed to earn his respect: she took work that was beyond our capability, largely based on the knowledge that my friend and I could achieve results despite the shortcomings of the hardware and software. We never received recognition for our work. The more we did, the more was expected of us. I was a short-timer, but there was friction between my friend and our boss.
When I graduated and moved on, they lost the buffer that they had between them, and the friction flared up until my friend found himself unemployed.
Shortly thereafter ex-boss lady called me and asked for some help with some project she couldn't handle. I didn't get anything like the attitude suggested by the poster of the story: she was polite, but definitely looking for a freebie.
She wasn't a bad person -- maybe too zealous and a little naive. And underfunded. You know how it goes. I found myself in a dilemma. I was disappointed at how my friend had been treated, but I didn't really want to see my ex-boss go down in flames, either.
My solution was to politely express the strategic error I thought had occurred when my friend had been "let go". I gave her my consulting rates, and an estimate of how much I thought the project was worth.
She thanked me and hung up. I never heard back from her or the company. Shortly thereafter, I found out she had moved on, or maybe forced to move on.
Anyway, my advice in this situation is to remember you don't owe your previous employer anything. (Well, maybe you do, but I'm assuming you don't.) You're entitled to compensation for your services. If my ex-boss had been impolite or disrespectful, I would have had no compunction telling her where to go, or maybe jacking up my rates.
--
bachiatari na torisetsu o yome!
25% of the over 120 people company had to leave incl. me. Started up our own business, but every couple of weeks I get a call for help or explanation. Friend (Windoze-guy) still works there, and he just tends to reboot stuff if it doesn't work (He's used to doing that ;-) and I must admit, most of the stuff (DHCP, Mail + Amavis, Samba CDRom Servers, ISDN dialup, all Linux) is still working. They just don't understand how.
My time will come.
You can't change the past. But you can draw a line in a non-confrontational way, where you define your future relationship...
,
Dear
Glad I could help out with . As I have demonstrated in the past, I enjoy the opportunity to solve problems and assist in any way possible.
In the event you require additional assistance, I have attached my standard price schedule. I'd be happy to discuss discounts for extended work, or on-call or after hours rates.
I look forward to working with you again in the future.
Sincerely,
At this time I work as a Computer Tech/Consultant but back in the early 80's I had my own Janitorial business. One of my contracts was a US Post Office in my area. I was about a year into my second 3 year term and had always received high marks from inspectors and the Postmaster for my quality of service. Janitorial is a very tough career on a person especially because of the odd hours you must keep. The Postmaster at this Post Office decided he would prefer me to perform floor wax duties on weekends. My contract specified that all duties including waxing were to be done during weekdays only and I reminded him of this fact during our conversation. He was quite unhappy about this and a short time later I received notice from the Post Office Contracting authorities that because of my poor service they were terminating my contract and rebidding it. After a bit of digging I found that the Postmaster had turned in a report signed by him and another postal employee that stated I was doing a poor job and requesting replacement. I tried to get this situaton corrected by contacting the contracting office but to no avail. BTW at the same time I also had another USPO contract where my reviews were always great. It didn't matter. :)
About a year later the Postmaster and the same employee who had signed the report that resulted in my contract loss were charged with embezzlement and forced to resign from their posts. Neither one ever did any jail time and remained in the same area as I. After another year went by I recieved a call from the same individual (Postmaster) who was now employed at a car dealership. I now was involved in advertising and did ads for various car lots in my area. He acted like my long lost buddy and asked if I would please come down and do some ads for him. After listening patiently to his smooze I told him to go screw himself and hung up.
He later lost his job at the car dealership and left the area after someone (?????) informed the dealership of his unknown to them shady past. His co-conspirator ended up working at a carwash. I used to wave at her as she washed my car.
True story
Companies should realize that laying people off can cost money as well as save it.
ALso, a minimum number of hours is also worth it. Min 3 is fair for most tasks like KIA server. Min 2 or even 1 if the task is pidly and you want to make the point. Also make it know that your charging system works like the telephone company's long distance system, only you count by hours and not minutes. Ie, you round up to the next hour regardless if you work 5 or 45 minutes into an next hour.
You should have all this stuff typed up in a contract and have it signed by the boss (no one else!) as soon as you get onsite. Without it, don't do any work. Also don't negotiate. That's the contract, take it or leave it. You need to have legalease wording that absolves you of all responsibility if the system breaks again after you leave. You need to make it clear that you can't be sued after the fact. I travel is required, include a blurb about mileage and the rate. Include text that says what will happen if they fail to pay by 30 days after service is rendered. Also say that failing to pay also includes a bad check.
Carry a carbon copy ticket book with you. As you work on different systems, write out what the system is and why you're doing it on the carbon form. Write down every system you have to touch and the major points of what you do to each. "Had to reboot border router." "Had to kick the DNS box in the nads". Before you leave have the boss (no one else!) sign the each carbon page (if you had to use multiple pages) and give them one set of the carbons and file away the others. This way you can show exactly what systems you touched. If their NT box breaks later and you didn't touch it, they can't blame you for it. It's also very wise to record all tty output (commands, stdout, etc). If you have a laptop with a CDR in it, burn two copies to disk. Both you and the boss should sign both. Give them one. Don't let them leave you alone at any point and time during the onsite visit. If you aren't alone, they can't claim you stole backup tapes from the locker or pissed under the raised floor.
Write every password they gave you on the carbon mentioned above. Include in your contract that they are responsible for changing every password they gave you after you leave. Also include that you are absolved from any future damages coming from said systems where the passwords weren't changed. Writing it on the carbon emphasizes this.
It's important to make sure the signatures are from a person at the company authorized to pay you. Odds are you old super isn't authorized to make such payment. The director of the dept is usually the person that can do such things. They could potentially claim that the person that signed the contract wasn't authorized to make such agreements. Don't give them a way out like that.
It wouldn't hurt to use a tape recorder for all verbal conversations and make that something else they agree to in the contract.
Have the contract say something about parking (if parking garage fees are incurred or if a certain parking permit is required for parking (tickets or towing are the penalty).
All these are just some of the ways you could potentially get screwed. It's better to take precautions beforehand than post mortem.
I would not allowed to help them, If I did, I would break my "unimployed insurance" or whatever that is called in English, and not get any money.
my sig
The day immediately after I quit, which fell on a friday, my boss called me and asked if I could make some changes. He seemed to feel really awkward about it, so I told him my freelance rates and came in to the office and took care of it for him pronto.
:) You can always decline without burning bridges.
If he had been demanding, I would have strategically declined quoting prior obligations (sitting around and watching ST:TNG - or, Professional Character Enrichment - PCE)
Turn the other cheek, but don't ever let yourself get pushed around - self-respect man.
May the bridges I burn behind me light my way ahead.
If I was in your situation, it would depend entirely on how I was treated while I was employed there.
They obviously didn't give a crap about your situation when they laid you off. If careers were like dating going back would be like friends with benifits, and i've never seen those situations work out...
You start doing little odd jobs, either you're going to desire working there again or they'll desire to have you back. Once a layoffer, always a layoffer. Don't trust them as far as you can cook em.
At your "standard" $275 an hour rate.
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
It's all very much like what everyone else is saying.
You didn't mention whether you were paid for your services?
I once did some voluntary work for 6 months for a charity, once the term ended they lost some of their accounts data and gave me a call to see whether I could fix it for them, I said sure, I'll pop into their office and take a look. It was a pretty trivial problem, they had lost a disk and needed to restore from backup. I installed their accounts software on another system and grabbed the data from Backup - about 30 minutes work.
I didn't expect payment, but they gave me a small sum which certainly covered my expenses and time.
These days I would never consider doing free-work for a company which previously paid me.
You also didn't state how you left your ex-employer, whether you handed in your notice, got fired or were made redundant. From the fact that you are currently unemployed I assume that you involuntarily left your job. While going back there to fix their mess may give you a short term "last laugh" in the matter, you should certainly proceed to try to get payment for your work.
And if they didn't ask you nicely you should really tell have told them where to go and have referred them to an active LAN/WAN consultant who should charge in the region of $900 a day and probably take 3 days to fix the problem as they won't have any experience with that particular company's setup.
An added benefit of the invoice is that
it will come in and probably be handled
by someone other than your former boss.
If you provide enough of an explanation with
the invoice as to what services were performed,
she will probably have to provide an
explanation to her bosses. So even if the
invoice doesn't get paid you may be
clarifying who really saved the day.
Nice Guys finish last.
Although I know the situation is different for a corporate environment. (I am in the US Navy.) But we run into similar problems constantly. The rotation at my station is between 18-30 months. So, as you can imagine, a lot of local knowlege gets lost with transfers. We would have to e-mail someone at their new command at least once a month. They were the only one who would know how to fix a certain problem.
Finnally, my new boss, got fed up with this. We changed the policy on transfering. Everyone has a mandatory two month turnover on their knowlege. This is coupled with a massive cross-training policy.
The result, everyone knows everything, no knowlege gets lost.
The point to my rant is that the company should have never let you go with out a proper turnover, and if you charge an outrageous fee for your freelance support, that's what they deserve for their lack of planning. Maybe next time they'll let someone else go, not their better techs.
I wish there was some there was some way that I could be outside playing basketball, in the rain, and not get wet.
One morning, a few days after I was laid off, my ex-employer called me to say I should come in right now to pick up my last check. Once I got there, he said he would only give me my check if I spent the day fixing some bugs in my code! I'm ashamed to say that I actually spent the day doing just that. I was pretty desperate for my money, and I didn't want to burn any bridges or not get a good reference.
/.)
A few notes:
* They laid me off in the middle of the day, while I was in the middle of checking-in some fixes. Most of the problems they wanted me to fix after they laid me off was stuff I was about to check-in anyway. Only two bugs really took me most of the day to fix.
* Yeah, I should've had some savings, but I was stupid. (You live, you learn.)
* I found a new job a few months later, so I don't have any time to fantasize about revenge anymore. (I survived with the help of my friends, family members, and Maruchan(tm) brand ramen noodles.)
* In retrospect, I'm surprised my ex-coworkers didn't tell me to go home and sue my employer like my friends suggested after I told them the story the next day. Maybe they were afraid of getting laid off too.
* My current employer told me recently that he called all of my references (mostly people from my previous job) and said my old boss had quite a few negative things to say about me, but everything he heard from my ex-coworkers was very positive, and that's why he gave me a chance. Bottom line, I still don't know the true reason I was laid off (besides "we don't have any more work for you to do"), but I strongly suspect there's a lot more to this story. I also suspect that I'll never know the bottom of it.
- Ashamed But Newly Employed In San Jose.
(I have to post this anonymously cuz too many people at my previous job (a 20 people company) read
There was an engineer who had an exceptional gift for fixing all things mechanical. After serving his company loyally for over 30 years, he happily retired.
Several years later the company contacted him regarding a seemingly impossible problem they were having with one of their multi-million dollar machines. They had tried everything and everyone else to get the machine fixed, but to no avail. In desperation, they called on the retired engineer who had solved so many of their problems in the past.
The engineer reluctantly took the challenge. He spent a day studying the huge machine. At the end of the day, he marked a small "x" in chalk on a particular component of the machine and proudly stated, "This is where your problem is."
The part was replaced and the machine worked perfectly again. The company received a bill for $50,000 from the engineer for his service. They demanded an itemized accounting of his charges.
The engineer responded briefly:
Chalk mark $1
Knowing where to put the chalk mark $49,999
Which will list the current status of her company and all jobs performed...
As there wasn't a "fee" established, give a "acocunt opening bonus" equal to the consulting cost...
That will mean 2 things:
a) that you don't intend to charge for the service, but that you value it... (you can't charge them anyway, so...);
b) you are willing to perform more services in the future... at a rate.
Cheers...
The thing is.. you were very clearly in the right. You could have countersued.
If they didn't pay you for the work, you don't owe them the finished product. You don't even need a lawyer to explain that to a judge.
I used to work for a small web dev firm making around $25/hr doing sys admin. Now I'm freelancing/consulting to them for $125/hr.
Don't ever turn down money.
Every time ILve quit a job (never been fired, touch wood), ILve always given a "1 month guarantee" to the old boss that they can contact me and ask questions about stuff on the basis that maybe I forgot to tell them something during the handover. But I was always clear that after that I would be charging for my time, and even quoted the rate I would be expecting, 4 hour minimum charge.
While ILve been taken up on the guarantee a few times, ILve never had a boss come back to me after that. Programmers ILve been friends with have asked me stuff, and I have answered as best I could.
On a slightly related note, their was the company I quit shortly after desiging a solution to a major bug that was affected 10% of customers accounts, and so was supposedly the no. 1 priority. When I re-joined the company 2 years later, the work was still waiting to be done! Guess what my first task allocated was? The clean-up requied for the additional 2 years of compounding errors was a nightmare...
You know the funny thing about saying no is that I find it easier to do as I've gotten older. At the rate I'm going I'll be crabby in no time.
the company is to you. Working for free after being laid off gives them something and you nothing.
At one time, I was hired to work at a company where I knew and was friends with several of the people in the division I'd be working in. A while later, the company had a financial crisis only the senior management was aware of, and the CEO called people one night with no warning to lay them off. During the call, he told me he was sorry friendship desires and business needs had to diverge, but that business needs won when the two conflicted.
I answered followup emails and calls during my severance pay period, and forwarded email directly to me from clients to the approapriate people who took over responsibility for those clients then and afterwards. The company hasn't asked me to do anything for them since my severance period ended. If they did, my friendship for them would lose to my business needs, and I would set a reasonable hourly rate for my assistance.
This situation should be seen as a great opportunity for you to keep working for your old employer at much higher rates. Be very upbeat and professional when you discuss this with her. Don't bring up any old issues - this is business and it's for your benefit and hers. "I would be happy to help you. Now that I'm independent, my rate for this kind of work is $75 per hour. (Here you negotiate if necessary. Don't go below about $45 per hour.) Where do I send my bill when the work is completed? To whose attention?"
When you go in to do the work, wear nice clothes, preferably a suit unless the workplace is very casual. Act calm and professional, and don't pal around too much. Work the whole time you're there and keep careful track of your hours. Bill in 15-minute increments. For instance, the bill might be for 2.75 hours. Bill for all the time you spend, but don't bill for any time you didn't spend. Don't charge for travel unless it's more than 45 minutes in each direction, and in that case bill the travel at half rate or else charge a minimum for showing up instead.
When finished with the job, thank your new customer for the opportunity to do business with her, and make it clear that you would be pleased to be of assistance again in the future. Don't ask for a check on the spot, but quietly mention again as you're leaving that you'll be sending along a bill.
When you send your invoice, make it very professional looking. Use a company name if possible, but if you're not set up for this in advance you can use your own name.
It is advisable to send the bill in a window envelope, with only the client's company name, attn line, and address showing through the window. Print on the envelope (or on a label) a nice-looking return address.
Good luck in your new venture.
Sigmund
I would, but the only reason I came here in the first place was to help my parents out. They have a pet store here, and I want to be able to help them out while I finish my last few classes on my BS degree. It's worth it either way to me. I'd just like to find someone I can help more than the animal label-maker programs and things I throw together for them. On the bright side, I have learned to be quite a good cook in the meantime!
Ryan Fenton
I actually just had this happen to me a week ago, I was dismissed because of personality conflicts with the new management. However there are many systems which only I understand, so last week a month after being dismissed I was called to help them solve a crisis.
I arrived, they began spewing the problem at me... I quickly stopped them and said, "As an actor would say, what's my motivation?" This stopped them dead in their tracks and we quickly negotiated a fee of $100/hr. One of my former co-workers said I should have demanded $250/hr, but $100 seemed pretty good.
If you've got them in a tight spot, damn can you make some easy money. =)
.. I left a small consultancy company after 7-8 months there. I really never got along with one of the owners, even though he was a nice guy but after I left, I was called several time by one of their brown noses that worked there about helping them with their firewall, their email server and so on, all stuff that I installed for them while I worked there. I helped them out for a while but one day I got fed up and just said "Look, I left six months ago, either you start paying me or you can find someone else to help you".
Now, this wasn't really advanced stuff they needed a backup function configured, and maybe a new email account setup. Being that they uses Win2k server, the built in backup software and Exchange Server 5.5, it wasn't really high tech - all they had to do was to enter the right stuff at the right place and read the fscking instructions...
Anyways, after I set my foot down, I never heard from them again.
-- http://z80.org - all opinions, all the time --
Well, sometimes sex is the only agreement. She may or may not be married, but she definitely will understand the want of guys. Seriously, taking a sexual payment is not bad if she wants to keep it under the belt about consulting you and you do not need the cash. :P
Unfortunately, I'm old and cynical too, so here's some hard-earned advice - it isn't just about being helpful. For example, there are also questions of liability and risk. What if you go in, do some work, and then next week someone discovers a virus? A back door? a corrupt database? To a jury, somebody laid off and out of work for 5 months looks an awful lot like a disgrunted employee. Selfless motives can be tough to explain under cross-examination.
Of course, there are similar issues on the ex-boss's side. Unless she's the sole-proprietor, I suspect that she'd face some tough criticism if something went wrong after she let you in.
Now IANAL, but I do think that working for pay under a fair and equitable contract would give both sides a better story if something did go wrong: i.e., you wouldn't deliberately break anything - you need the money too much!
"Don't shit where you eat". Where I live, the industry is not *that* large that I can "piss off" (actively, or passively by just doing nothing). I don't know about you independently wealthy slashdot folks, but I need money, and I need a job. I'm not rich enough yet that I can tell people to fuck off.
It sounds stupid, but it works, I get enough goodwill that I can move through to my next employer (or back to one of my old ones, as I've had to do in the past).
She solicited you for work.
You performed the work.
Bill the company for your work. List here as the authorizing entity.
You are a professional. Your work has worth. Charge for it. This is common practice in many professions. Just ask a lawyer for advice sometime. Casual or not, whatever the social setting, expect to be billed. An old joke along those lines is:
While commuting to work a man asked his friend, a lawyer, "Hey, I was talking to a CPA at a party and asked him some questions about retirement plans. Then I got a bill for $50 in the mail, what should I do? Pay it or ignore it?" The friend replies, "He rendered a service to you at your request, just pay him." A few days later he received a bill from his lawyer friend for $250 with the line, "Rendered legal consultation while traveling for business purposes."
The moral of the story is, if you feel your work has value, charge for it.
- Tjp
I am in wallow with my inner money grubbing capitalistic pig. ... Oink!
As is every "Ask Slashdot."
---
Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted!
Sure, do the work, and charge the going rate, ( or slightly less if you are REALLY nice guy ) and make sure they understand that it's beacuse you are nice you are doing it on short notice..
But never never do it for free.. Thats just silly, and bad business practice.. ( on both sides really.. one didnt get paid, other has no guarantee since no work was 'purchased' )
---- Booth was a patriot ----
It's not surprising that you've been unemployed for 5 months, if you can't even spell been....
To quote a rather sappy movie, repeat the above again and again.
How much is your time worth to you? Then charge for it.
I work in a service business, not computer related (thank goodness). We charge exorbitant rates. We charge as much as we can. Simple. We charge for abuse. There are at least 4 ways to fix any problem, and we usually go with the 2nd or 3rd most expensive. The most expensive if the person gives us grief.
That being said, 90% of our customers would go for coffee or lunch, just to chat as friends. We fix the problems, charge for it and they pay.
It's business, not personal.
Derek
You mention that you are unemployed. Besides just the money that you would be making, it is a great opportunity to network as well as to improve your references.
Even if you and your boss aren't on good terms, maybe another employee there knows someone who knows someone..who can help you to get a job. If you and your boss are on good terms, this extra help might just motivate him or her to press his/her contacts harder to try and find you a job.
One of the best references you can have when looking for a job is a glowing review from your previous supervisor. Rendering this help would definitely shine through when he/she provides a reference. If not the supervisor, maybe some of your other co-workers are your references, in which case this is something else to work in your favor for a new job.
While it would be foolish to not get paid (as has been mentioned over and over again including methods for deciding how much) it would also be foolish to overlook the less concerete benefits of assisting. A network is super important when the economy is bad, so don't ever overlook it.
Some good job hunting books:
Job Hunting For Dummies by Max Messmer
ACE the IT Job Interview! by Paula Moreira
Yup, this has happened to me. I simply, and politely, ask for a Terms Of Engagement, which at least makes your "employer" enter the correct frame of mind. If they then request that you work for free, they are given an appreciation that you are prospectively doing the work as a favour, not as their right.
Never, ever lose a file again. Ever.
Why the hell did you do it for free??? At a minimum, I would have written up a brief contract and charged an outrageous fee (as you said, you're the only one who knew how to fix it) like $300/hour + travel expenses. They wouldn't say no... trust me.
I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
It's simple!
Never work for free for corporations. Why do anything else? They consume our lives and produce wealth for others.
I have done this on occasion. I simply ask for pay arrangments, PO # and contact name.
When I show up, I have a copy of the invoice for services to be rendered with the terms printed clearly on there. Someone gets to sign that and keep a copy.
Do the work, be nice about the hours, and bill them.
Done this way, I reserve the right to actually persue collections, which I have never had to do.
Remember their actual cost of employment for you is, on average, 135% of your last wage. You can ask for this much with impunity because they have demonstrated they can pay that amount.
Personally I double it, and be considerate about the billing hours and such. Underpromise and overdeliver so they see you providing a good value.
A couple times, I was turned down. They said it was too much. Too bad. Wonder how much they paid exactly? More than I would have charged them. BTW, when this happened, I let them know that I was avaliable anytime if they run into trouble getting the work done and that my time is valuable.
It is very important to set the expectations up front. That way, you maintain a good position in case things go south, or the project ends up bigger than they realize. (Which if you were doing your job, is highly likely!)
Blogging because I can...
If I had this happen to me, I would definitely have to try and refrain from gloating a bit. My first reaction would be "you need my help!?, but you laid me off..." Then since I would be probably be needing money since I was on unemployment, I would offer my assistance at a rate of $50 an hour with a minumium of 4 hours and insist that it is "off the books" so Uncle Sam wouldn't take a cut.
can lick my nutsack no matter how much they need me. When I quit my last job, I told them that I had arranged it with God for them to work for me in heaven, and under my rule, they would be forced to always do the right thing, and consider their impact on others. It would kill them. The first time they had an opportunity to rip someone off, theyd start going through widthdrawels and shaking in the floor when they couldn't.
Libranet GNU/Linux - Excellent Debian Based Distro http://www.libranet.com Check it out!
this was like you calling a plumber because your pipes burst.
The truth doesn't care what I think.
If they ask you do something you can get done in 15 minutes, and you do if for free, this still can be a great asset to you.
You finlly find that job you realy want and it is a dream job, you are asked for refernces, well if you refernce a pervios boss. If you have helped him out in the past he would have no problem in giving a good (maybe great) refernces, I think that would be a good asset.
I admite if it takes more the 2 hours you should be compensated for your time (you might want to get per hour what you were getting on the job, if you can figure that out, I will assume you were saleryed and not per hour)
No on the demanding part, I would question why do they think they have the right to demand anything from you, you are no longer emploied by them so they have no rights to demand anything from you.
Just my 2c, if you want you can give me change.
This happened at a company I worked at but a little different. I left on good terms with this company and told them if they had any questions I would be more than happy to answer them. At first it was nothing but simple questions like whats the password to this. Eventually it got out of hand though. They began asking more and more questions and things of me that required more than a one minute reply. I tried in my nicest way to explain to them that what they were asking was beyond simple questions and was taking too much time out of my life and if they wanted me to continue to help them I'd need to be financial taken care of. I didn't even drop a dollar figure but it upset them anyways. Then they finally agreed to pay me but they expected it to be at my previous salary rate there. Even though the reason I had left them was for a job with alot more money. Anyways what should have been a good reference is now useless. I regret ever doing anything for them. I now, no longer will do anything at all for any company if they ask I simply reply that I have signed a contract at my current employer which prevents me from doing moonlighting work for other companies and that I am sorry I can not help them. They seem to understand and I stay on good terms with them.
If your not cheating your not trying. If your not trying your not winning and if your not winning why play?
When employeers let us go, it's because they think there is no longer a need for them. Now they're realizing they need us on short notice, but they don't have a relationship with us anymore. If they expect you to come back and work 8 hours at your old rate and then go home, they've gotta be joking. If they want your $25/hr. rate, they have to buy that in a subscription package of 40 hours per week. Maybe they only need you for 8 hours once a month, but if they want you on call, they have to pay for the hours that you're sitting doing nothing waiting for that call. It's a zero-sum game. Either pay for us when we're working during the slow times, or pay a multipule of our normal rate to bring us in as ad-hoc consultants. It's amazing how bad computer networks can get messed up when you have a full staff of users but nobody doing the preventative maintainance.
a few years ago with the last company I worked for. I had a friend who quit and got a better job elsewhere. However, he was asked if he could do after hours work and he would be paid, well he loved this since he gets to play arround with another network and not have to get things working.
Well, what happened is, he never charged, the local admins (me included) was canned. All because of this guy (well the economy being a big part)
What sucks is I told this guy what would happen, and well, 2 people ended up canned over it, and they have a network that doesn't work. (most the sun systems are in storage)
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive
...funny thing happened to me today, I haven't had sex for over 5 months, and all of a sudden my ex-Wife calls me and demands (well, it sounded like a demand) that I help her out, because her entire collection of pr0nsites were down. Naturally, she knows that I'm kind person, but boy what attitude, so I did help her save the night. She did not even bother calling me back to thank me, (like if you get laid once, turn to the other chick, as Joe once said) Has anyone else had this happen to them before? What actions did you take?
getSexySig();
A simple "Sorry" would have sufficed. You don't owe them -anything-. Nada!
.02p
Being kind doesn't come into the equation - it is more a question of how gullible you are.
You can be kind and decline, you realise.
while you were there. Makes it easier to sell your companies secrets later.
I have been asked to come back and help out old employers many times, but there is always an upfront payment or agreement.
Hell even when i go home to help my father out there is a non verbal agreement there, i get dinner, some cash for helping him out, or just my travel expenses and damn thats family.
Basicaly if you get asked to come in again, say there is a consulting fee per day you work, plus pay by the hour. Even if you don't have a job as you were saying, make it worth your wile and get a paycheck. Maybe if you get calls like this all the time, you should start up your own biz.
- MOSKIE
I would have zero compunctions toward specifying a consulting rate. Expressed hourly, and with an understanding of the work at hand, and a further understanding that if the scope of the work changes, then more negotiation will be required. Since the example was an emergency, it would have been appropriate to *quickly* negotiate fixing the immediate problem.
It would be unprofessional to do this under any other circumstances! Going to a for-profit business to do counsulting work on a strictly volunteer basis, off all records, etc., is not at all professional behavior! Even if you are willing to volunteer your time and resources, there should be some accontability. Consider this: Volunteer workers at nonprofit organizations report their hours.
Anyhow, there are good and bad ways to say "My consulting rate is 50 dollars an hour for short term projects, and is negotiable for long term projects. My weekend and holiday rate is $250.00 an hour, and if travel is involved, 42 cents a mile is expected."
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Randy Cohen writes "The Ethicist" column in the NYTimes Magazine. This week he responded to a similiar quandary about helping an ex-employer. (It's the second letter, so scroll down a little bit.)
i still have full network and administrative access via my dedicated VPN to my old company (laid off in sept). They are fully aware of it, and like it. I've been called several times to help out on small things. On bigger things I charge them $140/hour with 30minute minimum(donethis twice sofar, both times being under 20 minutes work). It seemed like a lot to me but I talked to a IT outsourcing shop back in august and the price is comparable. Not to mention I can fix anything on the network in about 1/5th the time anyone else could since I built and designed most of it from the ground up, I know it like I know...er well you get the idea.
I even have all the root passwords and stuff, they know(like my other employers), if I *WANTED* to get in, I could. If I *WANTED* to wreck havok and not leave any traces I could. But I don't want to. They treated me extremely well, and let me go in good circumstances and I have nothing but good feelings towards them. They would have to change at least 50-80 different passwords(including passwords of the CEO, CFO, and others) in order to block my access to the network. So they just don't bother, they trust me and I have no reason to harm them. I've saved the day on several occasions in the past month and am happy to do so.
If the "fix" costs me more then 5 minutes to figure out I bill. If its less I don't bother. I don't know how complex the problem you dealt with was but I would for sure give them a bill if it was any substantial amount of work.
I am just waiting for the day when the main office suffers a power outage on a weekend and half the equipment fries itself because whats left of the company doesn't have the time/staff to configure the network with all the redundancy and monitoring , and notification tools I had setup(which was taken down since my office was closed, most of the network reconfigured to suit the new location so much of the existing monitoring configurations are way outdated. They know it can happen, they have lost equipment in the past due to power outages killing the HVAC and having a disk or PBX fry. But thats what happens when you cut staff and budgets, the people can't impliment an efficient network anymore. Power outage response time for me on a sunday at 5:45AM = 18 minutes from being asleep and hearing my pager to walking in the office door. Thats pretty fuckin good(I know because it
happened to me once this past summer, power was out for over 3 hours).
I used to think while I worked fixing computers for an corporation that will remain nameless, that if a member of the female persuasion would flirt with me, I gave them a break. Not only does this leave you feeling like a sap afterward, it also causes them not to respect you. People RESPECT you more when you charge them (fairly).
Look, you worked hard to acquire the knowledge you have. Your former manager, of all people, should know what you're worth. Uptime to her means keeping her job and, perhaps, getting a bonus. If it made you feel good to help her in that way, great. My former boss worked hard to get my salary up where it should be, so I would - - and have - - sent business her way since she left to become a consultant. Help those who help you. Charge those who profit from your labor.
It's only funny until someone gets hurt. Then, it's hilarious.
I hope you got paid for your time; if you didn't, then that's messed up.
If you accept temporary quick-fix jobs from old employers, you should demand a higher salary per hour than you would normally get.
If she's not willing to pay you a reasonable salary for your time, then you shouldn't do it. Imagine if it were vica-versa, and you called up your old company sand said, "I don't work for you any more, but just for old time's sake, could you please send me a pay check?"
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
I'd have told her to stuff it and then paid the office a visit for a little laugh at her expense. I worked in an office for four years as their LAN monkey. I've been asked to come back and help my replacement.
Nope. Jesus was a chump. Getting slapped twice is obviously worse than getting slapped once and knowing enough to avoid a repeat incident.
Sounds like you have the hots for you old boss. Looks like you fell for some old tricks.
I think the key is What did you do for them? answer simple "Do you remember how this worked?" type questions, or did you diagnose and fix the problem for them.
It is fair to call up with simple questions that are just a matter either "No, I don't recall that", or "It worked like this...". They must be simple questions where you do not have to think. (If you are doing noting else at the time you might hold the line while their experts think out the problem, but don't think for them).
If they want you to think out the problem, you need to charge for services. Be reasonable, but remember you know the system so you are better than the average expert off the street!
P.S. If you are asked simple questions DO NOT think for them. I have been gotten in trouble because of this. In that case I went to my mentor with a simple question that was in his area of expertise, and he took the problem from me, and then complained to the boss that I left all the work for him. (I was asked to leave over that issue, so of course I'm ticked)
I had a situation where I was working on some horrible QuickBasic code for a POS( Piece of Shit/Point of Sale both!) system. At the time I started the job I was young, stupid and politically inept. As a result, I lost my job later due to some moves that were a result of my lack of politicking. I was correct, technically, but people don't respond well to "You're an idiot and here's how I can make you not an idiot."
Flash forward about 3 years. The main developer on the project has become extremely burned out, the company has been sold and is moving to Phoenix (where I moved to shortly after this disaster) and they're asking him to continue working on the code. This is 2000 or 2001 if memory serves...
He refuses and states that there are two people in the US - himself and me - that can maintain the code.
A little background on the "system" is probably in order before I go on. It's QuickBasic (still!) running on DOS and coded so that nothing but old Lantastic NE2000-coax cards will work. The company did not want to pay a $15 per seat license for a DOS WinSock to communicate with the NT server on site, so he had to write a TCP stack. Oh, the workstations are all diskless, too, so BOOTP had to be written in.
Add to this the fact that the original software was still in use and was written by RPG programmers who wanted to learn to program on PC's. The typical methodology in the program was to call a subroutine, use a
statement to jump to some other portion of the program and then use a to jump back to the line following the original subroutine call. Needless to say, the stack was totally hosed after a few minutes of running this type of code.We couldn't rewrite the code because "it would be a waste of money" so we had to do neat things like write assembly code to give us a clean stack frame and put the old one back when we're done, shove it into a string and call it from within the subroutine. The really nice thing about this is that when you change the code or order of subroutines, you need to rewrite the assembly.
So, about 6 months to a year ago, the company calls me to ask if I'd be interested in working on their POS system. They're willing to offer me a whopping $15 an hour to work on it, too! I politely explain that, while I'd be interested in doing the work, an unsupported language on an operating system that you can't buy any more does nothing to further my skills. Furthermore, since I knew the state of the code and that they'd had other people working on it, there was no garuntee that I'd be able to do what they wanted. I wrapped up by explaining that, in order to guard against the potential damage of working on something that is useless in the industry, I'd have to charge $500 an hour with a minimum of 4 weeks (160 hours) billing. Payable in advance, of course.
We negotiated for a while and I did the work, getting my check up front.
When somebody wants something and you appear to be the only one who can deliver, explain that it's simply "a business decision" and take them for everything you possibly can.
There's so little difference between politics and jihad lately...
To do the gig after negotiating payment is kind, but to do the gig for free hoping for a thank-you call is stupid. Unless, of course, you're independently wealthy and don't need any income.
And always charge people with snotty, demanding attitudes a higher rate.
Tell her you're no longer an employee, and you are conducting your life. You can only help her if she will
1. hire you back, effective the date you were laid off,
2. retrograde pay to be paid upfront,
3. in cash.
4. In addition you'll need a substantial bonus to interrupt your life to reassume your former duties,
5. which she admits she cannot do without, and so you'll need a large raise. And more time off.
Otherwise, if she won't meet these demands, wish her the very best and hang up the bitch.
I left a system administrator position of 3 years to go back to school. They call me in quite frequently to help them "decypher" some of the things I set up, or to just fill in when someone is away. I usually charge them $85/hour, which is a good deal in my opinion, as I can get the job done in much less time than someone unfamiliar with the system. I would never offer my time just "out of the kindness of my heart", hehe. It's not like they can't afford it...
I've noticed these days that, although it's rather difficult to find a paying job in computer related fields, there's no shortage of people trying to get engineering work done for nothing.
One ploy is to ask you to work without compensation for a 60 day 'evaluation phase'.
Another is a small company I know of in Berkeley which runs a fee based service website. They make their source code freely available and expect to find engineers who will work gratis or for worthless stock options.
It was another admin asking. Probably in secret. The admin was incompetant and I'm surprised that he lasted as long as he did before running into trouble. His job was to transition me out because I was a contractor sent in to transition out the previous admin whom they eventually escorted out with security.(sleazy situation but very well paid) Apparently they consider admins dangerous because they let me go without notice(though no security escort). They claimed they had let me know far in advance. This was true, but the date was not set and seeing how they had treated the previous admin I had asked for a clear two weeks notice. I was actually glad because I had been looking for an elegant way out and had spoken with my agency about it. The company was headed downhill with numerous layoffs and the pc admin was on his way out. They had offered me the job but it didn't look like a good future. This would leave me as the only technical person which meant many increased responsibilities in a company circling the drain. My replacement doesn't count or rather counted against because of all the training needed. This guy was supposed to be the one they kept. I originally recommended against this person because I felt he didn't have the necessary skills. Boy was I wrong! This person barely had a functional knowledge of unix! They hired him anyway (must have been very cheap) I spent about a month training him on BASIC unix stuff. On the one hand I was conflicted about torpedoing him because my replacement was so underskilled, but on the other hand I wanted out, and on the other hand I was being well paid. That's a lot of hands man! When it was clear that the pc admin was leaving very soon I uttered the words "well you know, only one person can work the keyboard" knowing full well that they might decided to use the "permanent" admin at that point. I was concerned about staying the additional two weeks I had requested, so the timing worked out very well, but oddly left me with an annoyed feeling because of my request for two weeks. The pc admin quit/was fired the next day. They thought he was reading private email that leaked info to the boss's wife. The boss was going through a divorce at the time and didn't want the financial information to reach her. The reality is that the wife told HIM. She had actually gotten the info from yet another employee. Unfortunately his demonstration of the info made him a suspect at a time when he wasn't on good terms with the boss. phew! lots of background. Anyway. I was out of the country and got a panicked email from the replacement admin requesting help. We were on good terms but I didn't really have a good opinion of him. Unfortunately since I was out of the country I had intermittant email access and didn't get the mail for a week. I sent back a reply but got no response, so I assume the problem was too big and he was unmasked as incompetant and got canned. I never had to answer the question.
So....If it was you, would you have helped? If so, under what terms? On the one hand I generally want to help a fellow admin and possibly network for the future as well. On the other, I probably wouldn't get paid and I might not want a recommendation (or even to let people know that I know him) from this person. My general outlook is that as a contractor, I will do my best as long as I'm at a site regardless of conditions, planning for eternity but knowing full well I could be gone tomorrow.
The guy has been out of work for 5 months.
Hell, he doesn't *have* a bridge.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
The day I quit, my employer went ballistic because he found out that I was going to work for a company he perceived as being a competitor. He chewed me out for being "unethical" by taking all my hard-earned knowledge off to a competing company, and threatened to sue me (on unspecified grounds).
Time went by. No lawsuit. Then I got a call from a friend and former co-worker, still working my former boss. He wanted help with a project. I gave him the help he needed, no charge. I didn't do it out of loyalty to my ex-employer, of course, but rather out of personal loyalty to my ex coworker who would have been in a bind otherwise.
My friend told me later that, for months afterwards, my ex-employer went around bragging about his good judgement in choosing to "overlook" my ethical lapse, and not sue. (In reality, I suspect that he didn't choose not to sue, but was told by his lawyers that he didn't have a case.)
Since then, I've had a call at least once a year from the ex-employer, trying to entice me back to the company. Fat chance.
I have an aunt who works in the FBI. An FBI investigation into me, big or small makes things difficult for her, as well as for myself.
It came down to a simple decisions. 30 seconds helping the moron, or 30 days or longer explaining to the feds over and over and over and over again what happened.
I'd rather just get it over with and move on. He knew he was an idiot after that.
Cripes.
/.
The local supermarket checkout person gets $20 an hour.
Minimum short-term consulting anywhere in the continental US is $60/hour minimum 1 hour.
You're foolish.
P.S. The lameness filter is the stupidest part of
I have 2 experiences that throw each other off balance. First the more recent one, the bad one. I worked for a really crappy company. I did general computer technician work as well as custom programming and LAN/WAN Design and Administration. I worked there for 5 months and finally quit after I realized I was working well over 50 hours a week with no thanks to show for it (overtime and such) - this wasn't too much of a problem except that even if I worked a 12 hour day, if I came in 5 minutes late I'd hear all about how they can't take tardiness. After I quit, a month goes by. I get a letter asking me to return my shirts (we got those company logo shirts that every company has). I wasn't too pleased since the shirts, I felt, were gifted to me. Also in the letter they were asking me for a program I had written - turns out someone there deleted it after I left and they now didn't have anything to give to a customer they already billed. Fine with me however in the letter and a later email they were accusing me of deleting it. I met with a person from the company and they demanded that I return the software - which I didn't have - and that the software is costing the company $1600 to recreate. I asked about my lost wages due to them docking money for my shirts as well as my last months commission and all I got was "We're not going to pay because YOU lost the software". It gets me that a company could be that sleazy and do this. Even if I was the last programmer on Earth, I wouldn't recreate this software for them now - they burned a bridge.
On the other hand, I worked for another employer and left them a while back and we have a great relationship. It's mutually beneficial since I will get contacted to do some interesting project and I will receive a nice paycheck for that. On the employers side, they don't have to have a Network Engineer or Programmer sitting around there collecting dust. We both work around each other's schedules and we have established a good degree of trust.
If you're just starting out with this, make sure you do get a contract or some type of pay scale though. Mostly all companies don't want to pay for additional help from you after you quit and they will almost always make you feel like you OWE them something.
I'd rather kill myself than admit I read tony robbins.
The guy is a con man.
Congratulations on being an easy mark.
And if someone gave it to me for free, I wouldn't read it because I know the guy is a con man.
And if someone put a gun to my head and tried to force me to read tony robbins, I'd get a sharp pencil and slam them into my eyes.
Tony robbins. might as well push scientology on the idiot.
For heaven sake.
It depends on the structure of your business. If you're a tiny consulting company then you can just do a sole proprietership(sp?). The only time you need a tax ID is if you want to eventually hire people.
There are also other issues of legal protection (you get sued for that BSOD). LLCs are a nice way to go in that case, though there is an $800 yearly fee (in CA).
Anyway, IANAL and probably full of it.
" it may pay not to incite your former boss. "
The guy is out of work for give months.
What...will they fire him more?
The thing is. Your attitude on life is everything. He seems downtrodden. He needs a little positive attitude. When someone tries to take advantage of you, you laugh at them. Maybe a nice "fuck you" if you're feeling happy. And SMILE the whole time.
Hats off to you, sir! The world needs more alturism trolls.
1) Put an item in the crontab to "defix" your fix after a few weeks.
2) Blame the problem on buggy software.
3) Profit!
4) (Optional, but highly recommended) Repeat
The Right Reverend K. Reid Wightman,
Basic case handling fee: $500,00 ...
Case study: $280
Rapid deployment fee: $843,00
The look on your boss's face when she gets the bill: Priceless.
I have always stressed to friends and family that I consult for money. And that when I am off duty, I do not perform any work for free.
My stepmother once hired me at $100 an hour for doing some admin and installation work on her home computer...
I love what I do, but I do not work for free.
Mark Edwards
You nailed it. This is the right advice.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
A call to the FBI falsely?
That would be sweeeet. You'd own that company after the lawsuits.
Plus the dumb bitch would be in jail.
I would have just hung up, as with any other total stranger who called me uninvited and began making bizarre demands. The bipolar pothead I work for now is bad enough without dealing with former bosses, ex-girlfriends, or my second grade PE coach. Screw 'em.
OTOH, if I was out of work, I'd probably suck it up and do it. But I would insist on a rate of pay at the outset and immediate payment at the conclusion of the job. Otherwise, my time would probably be better spent combing want ads and harassing my contacts at the employment agencies.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
Well, it depends ....
1. Was the parting on good terms?
2. Current employment status?
But bill them as a consultant, no question.
I am the Barber of Seville.
don't blink next time, buddy
don't blink.
Those who give up their power willingly deserve none.
However you might start here:
U.C.C. - ARTICLE 1- GENERAL PROVISIONShttp://members.cox.net/jwblack/rights
It doesn't pay to burn bridges, especially if they need something that you can provide.
Yep. Still on your knees even AFTER they screw you out of a job.
For those who have been in this situation, how did you handle it?
"Ten thousand. All in advance."
For others, if you were offered work from your old job, would you do it, and under what conditions would your perform said work?
As a 1099 Independent. Paid in advance at triple my normal rate. One whiff of bullshit, and the job is over.
Be careful, don't let yourself get used.
Again.
Get fees upfront.
Jesus would have gotten himself creamed in business.
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
Forget the money...now SHE owes you a favor. Call her and DEMAND that she help you find another job. An excellent recomendation goes a long way in the US labor circles, far much more than a degree AND experience to a certain extent! If other people have replied with the same idea, I apologize for the duplication.
By the way, if she doesn't help you, badmouth her. Make sure WHEN you get a new job to tell this little story to your current employer. You just won't believe how far word of mouth can go!
That is the first thing to do. You
don't owe them anything!
Hey, Kind person, Boy do I have work for you... I got all the work in the world for you... It's all well and good that you are a "kind person"... .. ..
"Kind" in this case means kind of stupid...
The 'turn the other cheek' quote is a prime example. As interpreted by the modern christian church, this statement is about subverting yourself to authority and not defending yourself against corrupt powers. However, the is another interpretation. As I learned recently, this statement, as is the case in many of Jesus' statement, is an attempt to use local customs and etiquette to equalize unequal relationship. The explanation is fascinating. In the time of Jesus if one was going to slap an inferior, one would use the back of ones hand. After the inferior person was slapped, Jesus said to turn the other cheek. This would force the assailant to use the front of the hand to attack. However, the kind of slap was an implicit acknowledgment that the person was an equal. Therefore, by turning the other cheek the victim is forcing the assailant to acknowledge equivalence if he or she attacks.
So, far from bending over and taking the attack, the words tell us to not to be subservient, but be proactive in a peaceful way. Sending a reasonable bill for services is appropriate. If you did not agree on terms before the job, theft of services would probably not be appropriate. In the future, to 'turn the other cheek', agree on terms prior to the job, and let it be her choice.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Load up some back orifice so you can control the office and create small problems that they'll call you back for. In the end(after a few calls and a few grand later) "discover" that back orifice is on the computers and promptly remove it and they're cured of all their problems and you're up a few grand. This is a disclaimer that I would have enver done something like the aforementioned to some lame ass dot-bomb company to swindle them out of money after laying me off.
I wouldn't pee on my ex-employers if they were on fire....unless they happened to be standing near one of my prized guitars or my cat. In the case of the original poster, you can tell the company didn't deserve the help since they apparently didn't ever offer to pay.
.nosig
Several consultants, myself included, worked on a big project which was cancelled. One of the consultants offered to work free for a week, just to tie up loose ends and cement his good relationship with the client.
Make a long story short, he became emotionally attached to the project and worked free for about *8* months. The net result is that the client thinks he's a real wacko and won't ever hire him again. Prior to this, he was widely considered level-headed and competent.
So, the lesson is: stay on your meds.
I'm employed gainfully again now - but during the 9 months or so I was out of a job, if my former employer had asked me to come back to fix any sort of emergency, or even in general, I would have demanded double-pay for all the intervening time upfront, and then we could negotiate future price.
Good companies keep good employees. When a company hits a rough spot and it's good technical people are the first thing out the wdinow while the top executives still make enough anual salary to cover the wage-savings from all the layoffs combined, that means they just treated you like a dog. To go back without demanding respect and retribution is an insult to your humanity.
11*43+456^2
Invest in memories.
Good advice to live by.
IWARS.
People, in general, disappoint me. Politicians even more so.
More than a decade ago the company I was working for was bought by its major competitor and shut down. I went on with my life. 4 months later they called me asking me to fix a bug - not in anything I had worked on recently, but in some DOS TSR I wrote six years previously. Who the hell still used DOS TSR's in 1992? Hoping they would go away, I quoted an outragously high (I thought) price. To my suprise, they agreed. When I got my wits back, I stammered out "and my NeXTstation". The NeXT-based project that I had been working on had been trash-canned, but they still had the hardware in storage.
I went in, looked at code I had written with stone knives and bearskins, and managed to fix it in under 3 hours. I walked out with a check for $1000, my NeXTstation Turbo and a NeXT laser printer. I used that black hardware on and off over the following decade. I finally sold it when I moved this spring.
She owes you a favour. You got them out of the shit big time - however, from the way you've described the incident your ex-boss is now of the impression that she can browbeat you into doing free work for them anytime she pleases. If this happens again, explain that you were willing to once out of the goodness of your heart but now they're going to have to pay you consultancy rates. Your ex-boss may well become hostile at this point, but it's important that you don't cave in. If they are desperate, they'll still hire you, and if they aren't then what the hell are they doing trying to get you to do free work for them anyway?
Oh, and I suggest you try and make the most of your owed favour.
You are right. Don't ever burn bridges. Walk over to the other side and rape and pillage until they burn the bridge. Worked for the vikings... they are still okay.
...And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me." - Martin Niemoeller (1892-1984)
Why is this news? Some juvenile posts asking what I would do if my old boss who canned me demanded I fix something?IN THE REAL WORLD THERE IS NO QUESTION TO ASK. Charge for your services.DuH! Give us a #$@^& break with this lame Post!!!
... for $85/hour. If they aren't willing to pay $85 an hour, then fsck them. Time is money, and unless someone is compensating me for my time, I have better things to do, like wash my hair or pick my toes.
It amazes me, by the way, the number of imcompetant jerks in the world--both professional and personal--who want it all for free, or who expect that you should go help out for free. Friendship is friendship, but money is money--and I NEVER confuse the two.
If you feel you're being bullied -- your fax, your email, and your caller id are your friends. Lie if you have to, but never stay on the phone with a bully, do everything in writing. Written correspondence gives you a paper trail and it keeps you emotionally protected.
In your case, this lawyer would have sent you a letter stating that he was going to sue (and take everything you own). As a reply, you would have sent him back a registered letter, stating that his client still owed you X amount of dollars plus some reasonable late charges, and you would be happy to send him the code as soon as you got paid. At this point, the lawyer couldn't have done much. If he wrote back to you with some unreasonable demands, he would risk looking like a fool in front of the judge and even worst, he could even risk losing his license for breaking his professional code of conduct.
As to the original post, I have a similar advice. If you're not a good negotiator, cut the phone conversation short and fax (email is obviously not going to work if their network is down) a simple invoice for your work. It doesn't need to be elaborate, just something like "My services, to repair the LAN, are going to cost $1000 per day (minimum charge: one day). Will this work for you? " Date it and sign it and then wait for a response (and don't be bummed out if they refuse your offer, that's life).
And I'll bet your old boss took all the credit for getting the problem fixed.
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world... those who understand binary and those who don't
You do not have to thank me.
You have to pay me.
Been in the same situation.
They called, mailed and IM'ed, needed help with a system I designed. I refused. There was NO WAY I was going to help then (even tho the person that asked was a nice guy, and a friend). They eventually figured it out... lol.
--iie1195
The goal should be to maintain a good relationship and get paid for the value you bring. If they don't pay, don't help. Your value add is knowledge and experience to resolve a serious problem that has stopped their business from operating. Your value is in saving their butt! Make them pay for that...
If they state that they will sue you if you don't help, just inform them that your are ceasing all communication and thank them for the opportunity to tell them to fuck off!
I would have. Then you can hax0r them, and go in there and 'fix' it any time you need to make a car payment.
ex-Boss calls me and demands (well, it sounded like a demand) that I help her out
/.
Was she hot? Does this help you get in her panties?
Money isn't the only motivator... oh wait.. this is
Tournament Management Online &
This does not make you unnecessary, it makes you immensely valuable. You, when given a task, will make sure the task does not have to be done by a person again-- or if it does, that person will have an easy time of it, thereby saving the company time and effort; then you can be assigned another task. In effect, you can do the jobs of many.
If you think your job is to do repetitive work manually and keep your Sekrit Knowledge to yourself, you're more a liability to your employer than you are an asset.
You are not likely to run out of work to do, no matter how much of it you automate. You can always spend time improving the automation if your current task list gets too short.
Agree to do the work, make no mention of a fee. Go to the building, fix the LAN, and on your way out, trip over a cable.
Sue the billy blue jeepers out of your ex employer.
There's no way they'll have insurance for it. There's a reason companies don't request work from non-contracted non-employees. You'll get paid in a settlement, or you'll get paid 10 years from now after the company is bankrupt.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
This guy must be in Utah. "Nice" Mormons always do things for each other for free and often get no thanks for doing it. So they expect the same from others. Try working for tips in Utah, Mormons feel you are providing a free service by bringing food to thier tables (or pizza's to thier house). When they do tip you, you also know that you are only going to get five percent, because they already gave 10% to the church. Yes I know this is a horrible stereotype, and it doesn't hold true 100% of the time, but there is quite a bit of truth to it. Feel free to argue with me if you have worked off of tips in Utah for 1 year or more, otherwise I don't want to hear it. To those that say love Utah or leave it, I've already left and it feels good to live.
Everyone is screaming "SEND THEM A BILL!!". While that's appropiate in some cases, it's not always. If it's a small matter (e.g., like 15 minutes) every once in a blue moon, what's the big deal. Just help them out.
;-) is important part of building a career. Former employeers and coworkers are key in that. Getting a recommendation from a former employeer, one who'd say they'd hire you again, is a strong testmentant to your abilities and attitude; one that will mean a lot to future employeers. So building good will with people, etc. is not only nice, but smart as well.
Remember building a network (the people kind, not the OSI 7 layer kind
At the same time, there's a balance. If it's bigger than that, something requiring you to go in for a couple hours, then sure, ask for compenstation [1]. Almost anyone in the buisness world will realize you're doing more than a trival amount of work & be willing to pay you for your time.
-Bill
[1] IMPORTANT: work out the arrangement (which you will charge, roughly how long, etc.) *beforehand*. That will make it a lot easier on you both.
SlashSig Karma: Excellent (mostly affected by moderatio
I was fired in 1997 to make a position for a 'man.' He then promptly hired seven people to replace one (me). The customers continued to call me for help because no one at the company would help.
This week, I received two more emails for help. Yes, five years later.
The evil company depends upon the goodness of its former employees.
The evil manager depends upon the goodness of its former employees.
The evil co-worker depends upon the goodness of its former co-workers.
The mistake most people make is entering a gentleman's agreement with former management who are NOT gentleman.
Be polite, be firm, pay-to-play or nothing.
I could use a few people like you :)
You should have charged her out the wazooo! You coul have easliy gotten 150 or 200 per hour. What other choice did they have?
Dang you are nice; I suspect you must be young. And I know for sure that the companies out there do not give a damn about you and you shure as hell should not give a damn about them.
Jamey
Jamey Kirby
Hey, gimmie your phone number and email address! I need work to be done. Just gimmie your contact info. I've got plenty of work for you to do. I need free people to "save the day" for me. If you have any friends/pushovers with similar work habits, lemme know.
First job I got in America was kind of illegal -- I din't have work permit yet, so that was a cash job. It was a small company doing some pr0n videotapes wholesale. There wasn't much work and it didn't pay well. Time went on, I got my green card, I got 9-to-5 well-paying programming job, blah, blah. But then there was a problem: on my previous job I had my custom-developed software, on which whole company business started to depend. They couldn't keep me, because they couldn't afford full-time IT guy on salary which would keep me there. So, we settled following way: I come there on Saturdays, spend couple of hours doing some maintenance and my salary remains as it was before. Now, for couple of hours of work this is *very* good salary. Everybody is happy, my employer is happy his system is running and being maintained, I am happy because I get some additional income for doing alsmost nothing. Besides, I like that pr0n shop -- they allow me to smoke in the office :-)
I got laid off at a company but the guy who laid me off asked me to finish my job before I left that day and I did.
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
I got a student-job editing silly old printouts of DB's to fit into a new system. :-)
Being a bit of a coder I told'm to get me the DIGITAL versions of the files (just plain ascii) and started writing file-parsing utils in C++ for them.
This all being on silly wages, of course, I'm just a student who's supposed to be typing out these printouts
Whatever.
Then they showed me the terminals where they used to do the editing on the old system and I tell'm: I can get out the data all you want just by writing an automation script that messes with the erminal.
Basicaly the old system was written in some seriously gruesome language everyone forgot (something they developed themselves), but using the builtin macro language of the terminals I could just emulate a human punching in commands, real fast.
Still on 'key-punching-student' wages.
So, I complain and tell'm I'm saving them weeks of work, which wa basicaly the truth. And they told me: sure, you'll get a serious bonus at the end.
After about two weeks I get: nothing.
I left there seriously pissed off.
About 2 months later I get a phone call from them asking me if I could write some new scripts for them.
They had some data in the old system they could only LOOK at, no way to print or export it to files. A macro with screendumps was needed.
My reply was short and clear: "sure, but it'll cost you what you SHOULD have paid me the first time: $50/hr".
Put down the phone and had a laughing fit.
They got back to me after 1 week -probably explaining to the boss why they needed me- and told me: ok.
In one day I made more than in those two weeks.
I didn't get mad. I got even.
Just kidding, but just to let you know that we poor students get set up too.
- bram
Our minister is somewhat of a historian concerning languages, day to day experience of the people (listening) underlying the meanings within the parables, political environment in the early church, etc. When Jesus stated turn the other cheek, it was (possibly) a political commentary. Inferiors in society would be given a slap with the back of the hand, while equals would have been slapped with the front. If you think about it, this would result in different sides of the face being struck. Turning the other cheek would be a way to demand being treated as an equal.
Now your problem is to update that sentiment to this situation.
Like you did. It often pays to keep connections alive, plus I'm a nice guy too. But if it went like it did for you, she wouldn't get a next time from me.
If she does call you again when she's in trouble, remind her that you already helped her once just to be nice, even though you didn't have to, and remind her that you didn't get so much as a thank-you out of it. So if she wants you to jump in and solve her problems again, she can cut a check for 8 hours consulting time at $80/hr and have it ready to hand to you when you walk in the door, otherwise you will turn around walk back out. If that's acceptable then head on over there and make some money. Otherwise tell her politely that she can call back if she changes her mind, and hang the hell up. Don't be smug, wordy or arrogant about it, just be direct.
That will settle the matter without burning any bridges, unless her ego is bigger than her business problems. Either you will be rid of her or you will make some money doing her a valuable service. Nothing wrong with that either way.
You got yourself in a bad spot now... Your ex-employer is soon going to start exploiting you, calling you for everything, and won't expect to pay you, however they for some reason will try to make you feel like you "owe" it to them... Basically, you're going to start being treated like an employee that doesn't get paid. Sound fun to you?
However, if you do demand money, I can guarantee they'll *not* pay you for as long as possible, or they'll try and give you "installments", where they make the first installment, and then never give you the rest. Knowing that you're unemployed and don't really have money for a lawyer, what do they care? Want to go to the labor board? Yeah, you'll get your check for $200 in a year or two (after they don't show up to any of the hearings). I've been burned far too many times by my ex-employer, and due to it I really don't trust anybody anymore, ESPECIALLY employers. Is this a bad thing though? No, I consider it me protecting myself.
HB>The reason you never received your money is HB>because you never completed the job nor did you HB>have enough decency and respect to communicate. HB> You left me hanging and I had to hire someone HB>else to finish the job. In my opinion, you HB>definitely don't deserve to be rewarded.
... some script kiddie will find that place sooner or later, and I hope they have fun :-)
HB>Harold Barr
Two months after I completed this loser's BGP peering work I stopped giving him free tech support until he paid up for the work. This was last spring, today he sends a joke to his mailing list and I'm on it, I ask about the $1200 he owes me, and this is what I get.
Mr Mouth hasn't changed his passwords and his routers aren't protected with access lists. I itch to
erase startup-config
reload
But I think I'll just let it lie
...they suck my balls first.
The H1-B Syndrome
==================
Companies suffering from H1-B Syndrome will begin with an IT department staffed with skilled, educated American workers who know what they're doing, and take pride in their work. They are payed well, happy, and loyal to the company.
Once they get everything working to perfection, a shithead beancounter upstairs who can't tell the difference between a server and a refrigerator decides it would be "cost effective" to replace the American IT workers with a sixpack of Hindus who will work for $0.38 cents an hour.
A shithead Department Manager, sensing his opportunity to make it big, will get wind of this from the beancounter, pinkslip his workers, and hand over the keys to the sixpack of Hindus half a world away who could give two fucks less than half a rats ass about doing the job right.
Meanwhile, the executives upstairs will shout "This will save the company millions!!" and pat eachother on the back for thinking of it. They'll go home early, buy another minivan, and take the kids to Disneyworld.
Over the next 6 months, the Hindus on the other side of the planet slowly fuck everything up to the point where the company's systems are on the virge of collapse. They aren't held accountable for their actions, so they drop their service contracts and move on to the next "dumb-ass American company" who thinks outsourcing their IT staff is a good idea.
The executives get home from Disneyworld and discover this, so they fire the guy who suggested the Hindus, and fire the Department Manager that OK'ed it. Meanwhile, they work on calling the original American workers back in to fix the problem before the company implodes.
The American workers then scramble to fix the mess that the $0.38/hr Hindus left behind, trying desparately to meet the company's deadline in the hope that if they do so, they can stay employed at the company. Six months later, the new Project Manager will complain to the new Department Manager that the project is behind schedule and over budget. So the new Department Manager picks up the phone, pushes a few buttons, and calls up the beancounter (who STILL doesn't know shit about IT ) asking for a way to be more "cost-effective".
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Personally, I would rather shove a hot fireplace poker up my ass than work for the kind of company you've worked for.
Bowie J. Poag
I've moved a bit, but wouldn't choose any different, really. After Arkansas, I moved to Indiana, where went to Purdue and got a very nice job working on DSPs using C and assembly on several families of chips. Then my parents decided to get out of the rat race, and buy a business - they found a really great pet store in Florida, so they moved there, and I went along to help out (they really needed it too). Unfortunately, the tech market is rather dead here. I've contemplated going back to ASU just because I'd be able to finish up the BS in CS rather quickly - and I really enjoyed Dr. Hammerand's graphics classes - but I'd rather keep helping out the folks and finish up here instead. Now I'll need more loans than before.
Ryan Fenton
When an ex-employer calls you for something and does not use the words "please," "thank," and "you" in every third sentence, blow him off. If an ex-employer wants work out of you, demand payment at a flat rate of at least $100/hour, and get an agreement in writing first. You are nobody's bitch unless you let yourself be.
I see people in IT caving in to employers all the time, and it disgusts me. Remember, you are there because THEY NEED YOU. Never take shit that you did not earn (But learn to take it well when you have it coming). Never, EVER, let an employer act like you owe him anything. The best way to get ahead in IT is to be an arrogant prick, because if you just do your job well and act like a drone, people will have no reason to notice you and will walk all over you. You are there because you are better than anyone else they could have doing that job, never forget it.
Malcom X once said "It takes a nation of millions to hold us back." IT people need to think about that philosophy more often, because people take advantage of us, ignore us, and dump shit on us left and right, and too many geeks just sit there and put up with it.
Fuck Off Ass Demon?! Isn't that a little harsh?
Your boss may be sitting in her office wondering why the hell you never sent her a bill. The fact is you are owed money. The network you fixed exists for no reason other than to put food on her table. If you fixed it, you deserve to have some extra food on your own table after the hard day's work. If you get paid they'll feel far more comfortable about calling you out again in the future, and you'll feel more comfortable about speaking to them. Ideally you should have brought up the subject of money before agreeing to do the work, but now I'd get an invoice written out and put it in the post immediately. What's the worst that could happen?
Technically, you can submit a bill to them for your hours worked with a reasonable hourly rate and force them to pay it. This is a pretty classic case for restitution and a court would almost certainly find in your favor, if you took it that far.
maz
Either you'll make a few bucks or you won't get any more phone calls. Either way, you'll be happier.
That's what I'd do. Walk in buck naked with a Zippo in one hand and a 5 gallon Jerry can in the other and screaming that you're gonna fix their tech support problem once and for fucking all.
I left a job I had as an underpaid administrator one Monday after my clueless boss gripped about a missing report the morning after I had pulled a working weekend getting the Netware server upgraded to version 4 (this was several years ago).
I grabbed my briefcase and immediately left, being careful to go nowhere near my console.
Two days later, the president of the company demanded that I come back and fix the network (the average education in the company apart from myself and the accounting department was High School/GED, btw). He came very close to accusing me of sabatoging the network. I basically told him to go fuck himself.
I still talked to the vendor who had sold us most of our hardware (and wound up doing some contracting for him a month or so later), and fortunately for the "president", the vendor explained to him how making accusations like that without evidence would result in my suing the living shit out of him and the company.
1.5 months later, they were still running blind ads (no mention of the company or the pay scale, just a phone number and the position), and I was employed as a contracter at the company I now work for.
8 months or so after that, the owner of my former employer sold to a larger company. 3 months after that, the plant was closed, and everyone there laid off (including my ex-boss, who, if she hadn't been boinking the pres would have been working the deep fryer at McDonalds for a career). Seems they never could get another Admin to work for ~$22K/year (did I mention that I had been hourly, and their idea of a raise was a big 23 cents/hour?), and the system that designed their product, together with the sales database, fell apart.
"Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked."; ~ Donald J. Trump
hey,
so you have been out of work for 5 months? I am kinda in the same boat - been 2 months for me, I was a java programmer - I was wondering what sorta steps you have been taking (aside from bailing out your former employee!) to get a new job? i.e. have you found you have to learn new skills or are you relying on what you already know?
uh...?
you have got to be kidding or you just kissed the dream fairy.
the homeless get and forget more blowjobs than you do because
a) homeless women do what it takes to get "protection" on the street,
b) there is a huge secondary market in drugs that must be paid for some way or other, and
c) violence is a part of the homeless environment.
finally, the only thing the homeless will remember is an easy mark, some bleeding heart liberal to hit up next time.
I got fired from my job, and they also fired the main networking guy at the same time, between the both of us, we were the only ones that new how the phones and other things worked. So my exboss calls me up a month down the road and asked me how to add employees to the phone system. It pissed me off so badly. I helped him, but I told him off, and said before I started that I wanted a check for $250 dollars. They paid it, and I had a good laugh.
keanmarine.com
I still keep contact with an ex-boss of mine who works in the web industry. I actually have a small part stock in the company based on work I've done, but I really do it because I like him, the company, and what they do. I do the same for other people I know, as long as I'm not super-busy, I'd rather be doing something productive than sitting on the couch with a beer on my stomach.
:-)
I'm sure it's different for a big company, but I do what I do because I enjoy it. I've been offered to do more work again recently, but this time it's for pay because I'm more busy and thus my time is valuable.
That being said, it's one thing to ask somebody you're on good terms with. It's another to "demand" assistance and then not give help. Geeze, I work expect to at least be offered dinner or a few drinks in such a circumstance.
Reminds me of back in college, when I accepted food/drinks for fixing people's computers...
My old boss called me and asked me if I wanted to come back on a contractual basis. I said no because the company wasn't managing it's money well and that is what got me laid off in the first place. You can see being asked to come back (on whatever basis) as an opportnity but if it disrupts your regular job-hunting schedule and makes getting your life back on track it would be wise to steer clear. Especially when they sound as abusive/unappreciative of good people like yourself.
I have also beeb unemployed for a few months, and was asked by my ex-boss to help him out. After his subsequent rude behavior, I concluded that there was only one solution; murder.
My job now is truly done.
company calls back an engineer to fix a machine after the engineer retires, engineer looks at the machine, then looks at the blueprints, takes a piece of chalk and cirles a part "replace this." few weeks latter the company gets an itemized bill from the retired engineer
1 chalk mark - $1.00
knowing where to put it - $49,999
bill the bastards
*** I suffer from a colorful array of psychological problems
I'd be more than happy to help my ex-employer out. They were extremely good to me when I worked for them, all of my still-employed ex-co-workers are still friends, and I enjoy working on the products and services that I once participated in while working there.
;)
I only wish that they still employed me... stupid mergers / downsizings. I'll just wait for when they start re-hiring and I'll wave my arms a bit
Where I worked, I heard that before me they had a guy on contract. When they put the position up for a regular, he didn't make the cut and had to move on. Fine, except that he was the only one with the passwords. Getting into things again was supposed to have been fun, luckily I didn't start working there until later.
Moral: Passwords are power, make sure you have 'em all before you let somebody go...
Given the proposed circumstances, it becomes more of an ethical dilemna than a financial crisis.
/. readers) out of solving the problem for the pure challenge.
You work for a company and they lay you off. 5 months later, your former boss calls you for help. Maybe you bail them out for free in order to help any friends that still work there and who might be adversely affected by the problem. Maybe (as stated) you bail them out to avoid burning bridges (although, IMHO, this is unprofessional blackmail on the part of the former employer). Maybe you just do it out of the kindness of your heart, or (probably more applicable to
I wouldn't advocate that anyone "work" for free, especially if they were fired by a company that they previously "worked" for. But there can be mitigating circumstances. And anyone that equates an IT professional providing free advice to a whore performing sexual acts for free...well, I guess I could equate all independent IT consultants to ambulance-chasing lawyers. The two comparisons, while wrong, are comparable.
--K.
Sig: Bad people happen. Try to avoid being one of them.
The way markup usually works in my industry, you would markup 10% of your hourly rate as a FTE, plus 75% for benefits, vacation, etc, plus 75% for overhead and profit.
You shoot for a markup of 3.6, especially for non-repeat work. 3.2 is ok for something that has a repeat value, and 3.0 is the lowest bargaining point. A proper business can't really make money with less than 2.75, when you factor in non-productive time.
There is usually a factor of about 15-20% for profit. If someone needs to make money on top of the work you do, they are going to try and get your rate down to 80-85% of what they charge back hourly. If the function is purley overhead then it falls into an expense category and has different rules.
So, if you made $50k as an employee, you would shoot for $85/hour billable. It is also standard to have a minimum number of hours (I'd say four, or two and the clock starts when you leave your home).
As long as rates are reasonable, and they don't expose the old boss to criticism for not doing their job properly then it isn't usually an issue. If you try and back-charge for 5 months' salary, then the boss can't show that they had a net savings by eliminating your position. Fair game.
Bill the bitch. She didn't say a word so she expects a bill from you. Of course, she won't call you to send her check. Do you think people do that? She will wait and expect you to either forget or drop the bill. Then she will laugh. Not only they saved money by laying you off, now they can use your services for free... What a deal! She will get promoted and you won't have a single dollar.
-- Leeeter than leet
..but no one's going to remember you when you're gone.
Unless, of course, you make some wonderous physics discovery. But until then, you're just another nameless peasant in a sea of bland faces.
Sad? Maybe. Mean? Not really. Deal with it.
Call a LAWYER, and SUE THAT BITCH and the COMPANY for everything they've got.
I would have emailed a short, curt note saying you felt it was rude and that your services wouldn't be so easily had next time.
What college did you say you graduated from? FUCK U!?!
I worked for 14 months for a friend of the family. They guy's business wasn't going so well so he had to lay me off. (I looked at the books, they were really against the wall) I was upset at this, especially concidering I was getting married less than 2 months later, so I had more right than most people to be highly critical of him in the future.
Having said that, I still call him a friend and he does have a lot of contacts in the industry that will help me in the future. So I do a bit of help here and there, including emergencies when the server goes down or he needs some DNS records changed etc.
In my previous 5 jobs, I have maintained a good friendship with my ex-employer and benefited from it.
The point I am trying to make is that the only thing that will benefit if you refuse your ex-employer is your ego and that is only in the short term. Being nice to your ex-employer can result in better references (ie: when you are looking for work) and perhaps even recommendations to industry friends. Think long term and get the most out of the situation.
I'd appreciate it if you could post the relevant quotation(s) and, ideally, reference(s). Thanks in advance.
It's a simple rule, but it'll save you a lot of heartache. Simple answer is, if somebody asks you to do them a favor, and you choose to do it, expect NOTHING in return. Not gratitude, not recognition, not a job, not money. If those things turn up, great! And there's something to be said for good will. But if you don't get those things, you gave because you chose to. Maybe to remember that you're a generous person? Whatever your reasons are, they're your reasons. Corollary to this is if you're not prepared to give something in this manner (an unemployed person plying their trade for free sounds like an extemely "generous" act), then DON'T. You have a right to be compensated for your work. If this is something these people want, then, dammit, they must be willing to compensate you for it. Don't think you're "burning bridges" by asking for compensation. If you're dealing with the sort of people that expect you to work for free, you're not going to impress them by doing that. They will see you as their patsy (to use a nicer term). "Oooh I just want them to LIKE me." Does not garner respect.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
I left a job I loved a couple years ago. Great job, poorly managed organization. I could see the iceberg... The technical folks all understood, but the management team thought I was a traitor for leaving the Titanic. After the technical folks repeated requests, I helped them out with a systems issue. One of the peons noticed my login and alerted the management. They accused me of attempting to hack their systems, and called in their ultra tight-a** IT Security guy. 18 months and $7,000 in lawyer fees later, they finally droppped it. Now, I get written authorization, at least an email, before I log in to anyone's system.
My former manager called me up after I had been gone many months to ask if I would assist them with a particular issue they were having.
Of course I made sure to let them know what the hourly rate would be for the work up front.
I went in and did what I needed to do. In and out in two hours. Got paid, and everyone is still happy.
I'd go back again if they needed something else done too.
Call me a whore if you want, but I never turn down easy money.
Homey Don't work for free!
If they need you, make them pay through the nose!
We are peons. People walk all over us. The more you tolerate it and let it roll off your back, the better off you will be. Take it from somebody who takes too much sh8t personally rather than roll with the punches. Think of her as an inorganic heat alarm that is too sensative and sounds too often, but otherwise just a peice of machinery. It can't hurt you, only beep alot.
People like to take out their frustrations by treating somebody like sh8t. If you can fullfil that role, they may value you more. IOW, a "whipping premium", a professional scape goat.
Perhaps she was just on the rag. If the crash happened another time of month, she may have been nicer. Women are like that sometimes.
Economic times are tough. We techies are as easy to hire and fire as McD fry boys these days. That is just the way it is. Nothing we can do except beat up H-1B's or senators who passed it in dark alleys. But that is not legal.
When things improve then tell the jerks who treat you like carpet where to go and go elsewhere. It is like karma, sometimes it feels too good to vent that you don't care about losing some karma. But not today.
Good luck, I can relate.
Table-ized A.I.
If an ex-employer wants you to come back to do extra work and they aren't hiring you back, you always make it clear that you're working as an independent contractor and that they will be expected to pay for your services. That's just good business practice and this is business, not personal. The billing rate, though, that varies depending on how they treat (and treated) you. If they were decent about laying you off and are being decent now, you might bill a flat amount per day or a low hourly rate for actual time with no minimums. If they're rude and unprofessional about demanding you do work for free, the rates are $100+ per hour or part thereof, phone calls counting as working time as soon as you pick up, rates double outside normal working hours and travel time is billed at $50 per hour or part thereof each way. Your time is valuable, if not for work then for looking for work, any businessman understands about not giving away a valuable product without getting something in return. Why should you be any less a businessman than your former employer?
Aren't we the lazy one.
Answering simple questions is one thing, but when asked to actually come into the old office and spend some time fixing or working on something you are under NO obligation to do it for free. There are ways to politely decline if they don't want to pay you, it is a business afterall. When they call you give them your hourly rate. When the job is finished tell them they will be receiving a bill in the mail and will have 2 weeks to pay it. Send it registered so you get a record they got it and put the date due on the bill. If they don't pay you by the due date take them to small claims or submit it to the local work force commission for the state as lost wages. You've got a bill as paperwork and you got the record from the postoffice indicating the date they got the bill. In this crappy job market don't do anything for free. I had my mom ask me today why I don't just come down to where she works and fix their network for them. I told her because your boss is already paying someone to screw it up and they aren't going to pay me to fix it.
$1.00 USD for showing up on short notice
$10,000.00 USD for getting your business back in operation.
Sounds fair to me....
However, I would say that there is a difference between EXPECTING some sort of compensation on a personal basis and that of expecting them to act professionally. Frankly I would not want to every work with or put my money into a company like that.
There however are many who will selectively interpret what Jesus said and form it into excuses for inaction. You insult me? Fine... I will try and be the better person and not let it bother me or give back a simlar response. However you attack me (not just a social slap, which is another story in and of itself) where I feel physically threatened and you will soon be feeling a universe of pain. However I will not use that as an opening to beat the crap out of you.
Wanna make a monster? Take that nice kid that always helps out and does so quietly (not a showboat) and exploit him... nothing will burn away your desire to help faster than an attack from the inside.
I would take into account several factors:
Just a few thoughts. In my mind, a big differentiator is whether the solution required your abilities and expertise, or if it just required the person who set up your particular network because no one else knows or has a reasonable way of figuring it out.
I am not saying that the problem was your fault. But I am saying that if you might be partially to blame for it or for requiring your involvement in the solution, then you should probably just do and not think about charging.
That said, there is no excuse for your former boss's not asking nicely or thanking you. Perhaps you should send a "your welcome" card. ;-)
I worked for an internet company as a media designer in the tailspin months of the .com burst. The usual story, endlessly related here - incompetent management who didn't understand the technology they were selling, endless promises to employees about shares and bonuses, not being paid the last month I worked there, etc. I managed to pull out two computers before the offices were locked, and consider myself lucky.
A few days after the company folds, the CEO - a man I considered a personal friend - calls me on the phone, begging me to finish a presentation I was working on. He needs it to help him round up investors, he says. It will help me get paid back quicker. Again, endless promises.
I, ever the fool, complete the presentation. It costs me a few hours, a hundred dollars in a studio to do the audio. I deliver it to him on time. And then don't hear from the guy for two years.
Last week, I hear that said CEO (who is still running the same business, after a merger) is asking around for me. It turns out I might have some content on CD that a client is bugging him about. Sure enough, he leaves several calls on my voicemail. Starts off all buddy, and gets around to asking me to look for this CD.
I never return his call, which I think is more effective than any "fu-k you" I could scream down the phone. He's asking me to do more work for free, without paying me for work I've done in the past? Screw him, and screw any employer who treats their employees that way.
It's been said in previous posts, but I'll reiterate it here. It doesn't matter if your employer is your best friend. It doesn't matter if he invites you around to barbeques, trusts you to babysit his kids, or gives you weekends at his cabin. When it comes to business, he is your employer. An honest day's work deserves an honest day's pay. Good employers - and good employees - both recognise that. Anything else is an abuse of any non-business relationship you may have.
What would Jesus have done?
Jesus was a carpenter, remember? As a fellow Christian, let me assure you that our Holy Father would have had no problem whatsoever with sending these people a bill. Same with Paul, who was a tentmaker and also sent out invoices.
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
any company employee who would even consider doing something like this -- that is to say, calling on a former employee who could very well be quite disgrunted -- should take the responsibility for loss of network integrity... computers unfortunately aren't always about protocol, sometimes they're about creativity, and the really good ones out there know leaving a passage isn't easy but it can be done.
Perhaps I can help. I was a contractor for the last 5 years, and I saw so many tricks people used to get free work.
- her entire corporate LAN was down
Meaning: It's costing her company 1 day of their capital. Unemployment is costing you 5 months of your capital
- helped her save the day
Meaning: You helped her save her job, even though she mismanaged by removing a necessary support position.
- my ex-Boss calls me and demands that I help her out. Boy what attitude. She did not even bother calling me back to thank me
Meaning: She's unpleasant and not a friend. She's blaming you for the problem and you believe it's your fault.
- an opportunity to make a little money off of your old company
Meaning: It's wrong to get paid by a company?? What is the purpose of any business (including yours)? It doesn't sound like you hang out there for fun. There's nothing wrong about receiving some sort of pay for your work.
- It doesn't pay to burn bridges, especially if they need something that you can provide
Not so: Getting paid is not burning bridges. You want to be known for the quality of your work, not your charity. How about your bridges that she burned?
I could understand if the item that broke was covered under warranty by you. If they were a poor charity or she was friendly I might even do them a favor.
- she knows that I'm a kind person
Kind people don't complain about what they have decided to give away.
Successful people make a quick decision and stick with it. It would be wise to work on your bargaining.
I'll do it!
:o) ...
But I'll have to get to the right coast somehow... that, and your Oracle server may wind up becoming a MySQL server at the end of the day (hey, they're both DATABASES, right? Who'll know the difference?
But this begs the question: Don't you have DBAs whose job it is to do this Oracle upgrade? All they do is login as "oracle," and. . .
--
Me spell chucker work grate. Need grandma chicken.
I know you're trying to be funny, but the honest to God truth is that Pizza, Soda, and T-Shirts are all forms of compensation. They don't cost much, but I might be willing to give up a little of my expertise for a free dinner. In the original poster's case however, it sounds like the company didn't even go that far. Just a "Hello? Fix our network you jacka$$! *click*".
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
And you'll have completely burnt your bridges with the company. This sounds like a pretty severe course of action, more like seeking revenge.
<simpsons>
Lenny: Nothing beats revenge for getting back at people.
Carl: I dunno; vengeance is pretty good too.
</simpsons>
It really depends on your relationship with the company, and whether you perhaps have an interest in doing any work for them in the future.
Considering that the poster is out of work, he may be better off to learn from this experience, and hope that his inadvertent generosity leads them to call him again when they have trouble, at which point he can negotiate a good fee, or maybe get his job back, if they need him so often.
Alternatively, if he needs the money, IANAL, but I think small claims court is a better way to go, rather than seeking the services of a collection agency. A small claims court will affirm (or deny) his legal right to payment for the services, and might get the company to pay any costs associated with bringing them to court. A collection agency would charge him, and it's hard to tack that cost onto your bill to the company, if it hasn't been agreed to beforehand.
It will also, given time, turn your reputation to shit. You will not survive forever supporting a small-scale development you once did, and no-one sane will hire you to write a larger one in the future, knowing that you'll tie them in. If board members of the biggest companies in the world are questioning when MS does this, you sure as hell aren't going to get far as a single contractor that way.
OTOH, if you do a good job, and leave it well-documented and maintainable, then (a) you'll have a much more pleasant time if you're the guy doing that maintenance a year later, and (b) you're going to develop a reputation as someone who does a good job, which is about the most valuable thing you can possibly have in the contracting business.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I left my last job all on my own. I discussed the issues we were having for a week or so with our 4th IT director in 2 years before I gave up and quit. I sent my resignation to the entire IT department, from top to bottom detailing exactly why the situation was so bad and miserable to work in. The thing is, my friends are still there plugging away. They are miserable for the most part, but they have not found the will to simply walk away. Myself, when I start becoming physically ill due to stress born of absolute insanity with internal policy, I leave. I built the network, I know the network inside and out. To this day, 9 months later I still know more about that network than anyone else there. I transferred all of my remotely important files to a new share for the department, detailing most of what has ever been documented concerning the infrastructure. I did what I could, took all I could take, then I bailed in a very vocal manner. The thing is, the people left are my friends. I know the hell they work in, I know the insanity they contend with, and I honestly feel for them. They have had to work under the threat of a bubious outsourcing deal several times. They have seen an accountant promoted to IT director, they have time and time again recieved a big virtual bitch slap in the face. So I feel for them, and when they ask for help I am very inclined to help them out if I can which is most of the time. The last issue I fixed was a DNS problem. Since I built the DNS system, I knew the solution easily and made it a quick fix. I have been asked to write new policy for them as well, which I am declining. It is not my job to make my friends look good, enough is enough. I have told them this too and they have understood. I have no ill will towards my former employer, but at the same time I have no desire to see them prosper. My hope is honestly that my friends get out one way or the other, no one is happy there. After that, I do not care if the place stays in business or not. I could do great harm to the network if I wished, but I have decided to offer moral support only for my friends left behind. Technical issues will have to be dealt with on their own from now on. They are mostly capable too, so this should not be a huge challenge for them.
If you feel like you have to give everyone what they ask for (and if so, you're hardly alone), work on a simple, polite, unwavering response. Try "I'm sorry, I can't."
You'll often get people who try to argue it. Do not fall into their trap. It's the slippery slope to doing something you don't want to do.
"I'm sorry, I can't."
"Why not?" -or-
"But we're in trouble" -or-
"Can you just come in for an hour?"
If you say anything other than "I'm sorry, I can't", repeatedly and firmly, you're going down the slippery slope to doing something you don't want. Your ex-boss clearly has the balls to ask you for pro bono work, so she also probably will try to wear you down by arguing.
"But we're in trouble."
"I'm sorry, I can't."
"You were the one who set up the server!"
"I'm sorry, I can't."
"We have the report due tomorrow!"
"I'm sorry, I can't. I really have to go now. Good-bye. [click]"
Of course, feel free to hang up even earlier. Don't be rude, but don't allow the rudeness of others to trample on you.
So helping out the poor = kharmically the same as helping out your old employer.. (you know -- the guys who used to pay you... then probably dropped you on your ass in order to save costs) for free?
There are a lot of good deeds to be done in this wicked wicked world... that's not one of them.
Unless there are deep bonds of friendship in place, if a former employer needs my help, I'm going to charge them for it. And.. I'm going to charge them a *lot* more for it then I would have made if I was still working there. That isn't mean, cruel, or greedy. It just makes sense.
Evolution: love it or leave it
True enough. However, if she is as bad as he claims, then perhaps it wouldn't make a difference either way.
GJC
Gregory Casamento
## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
You can always say that you're currently not available even if you don't have a new job. If you still want to be a nice guy, just kick up your heels for a while and tell your old boss that you can pencil her in like two weeks or a month from now. She doesn't own you and she's certainly not paying you so she can get what she pays for. Maybe she'll appreciate the value of having you run her network more. Think about it as tough love. Yeah... sure you want to be a nice guy and everything... but you're probably just letting this evil lady get rich. Do you really want to do that?
We can hire a buncha fresh-outta-college programmers to do it CHEAP (and get rid of our experienced C++ developers)!
Yeah, Right...
It is never more true than in Software Developement that you get what you pay for:
[ObOT:] if I got that call to do something for a former employer, I would have to charge for my time, regardless of the situation. However, I would likely adjust my hourly, minimum and/or flat rate ahead of time (and get some paperwork signed), depending on my relationship with the former employer.
Peace!
-=- James.
and say "bitch git yo ass in the kitchen and make me some damn pancakes!"
But they were also parties to fraud as well...
:) That might be a lucrative game to get into. Being on the legal side of the fence, and screwing your enemy.
I agree it's a risky proposition, and is definitely so if the IRS offers immunity for companies ratting out employees/contract people. But conversely, you can do the same thing back to companies you don't like.
I'd not make such a deal/proposition on paper, over email, or over the phone. However I might suggest it in person if you're not meeting on their grounds, or in their office (microphones). Then when IRS comes after you, you say, "what money?" Make sure you weren't videoed in and out of a location, etc, etc. And you better be living within your normal means. Which means, don't put it in your bank account, nor in your credit cards. Listen to those privacy mavens, they're tracking everything they can get their hands one.
The really nice thing about cash? It's not traceable. If you do this type of stuff, go cycle your cash right away.
Remember, that if they're accusing you - in normal courts at least - they need to prove it. IRS courts are a whole 'nother ball-game, and are outside of Law of the Land.
-- Ender, Duke_of_URL
You know... you could always post some stuff about your ex-company on fuckedcompany.com. It's kind of your civil duty to let everyone know what kind of company your ex-employers have.
There was an engineer who had an exceptional gift for fixing all things mechanical. After serving his company loyally for over 30 years, he happily retired. Several years later the company contacted him regarding a seemingly impossible problem they were having with one of their multi-million dollar machines.
They had tried everything and everyone else to get the machine fixed, but to no avail. In desperation, they called on the retired engineer who had solved so many of their problems in the past.
The engineer reluctantly took the challenge. He spent a day studying the huge machine. At the end of the day, he marked a small "x" in chalk on a particular component of the machine and proudly stated, "This is where your problem is".
The part was replaced and the machine worked perfectly again. The company received a bill for $50,000 from the engineer for his service.
They demanded an itemised accounting of his charges. The engineer responded briefly
One chalk mark $1
Knowing where to put it $49,999
It was paid in full and the engineer retired again in peace.
I am not certain by any means, however if the people demanding the source code for a flash web site are claiming that they both have a developer who "knows flash" and that they the company believe the existing product is crap, then you should explain that it does not matter how much their current developer "knows flash" the source is not going to help.
They would be better served by their developer looking at the existing output, learning where changes need to be made, and building his or her own version of the website. I am reasonably sure that if you started looking through the source code today, without comments, it would be faster to start from scratch.
I personally think this is true even for self documenting code, as so far as I know, even the best self documented code does not show you what a gui output will look like. It may show you the generic look of a window, but if the content of that window is dynamic, by definition it will change. Then again, I could be wrong.
-Rusty
You never know...
I'm not sure what the terms of your separation from your old employer are, but here are a couple of random thoughts.
First, if they are like most companies, they are in it for the money. Help them. Yes. But for a consulting fee. If they were willing to pay you while you were there, they should be willing to pay you now.
Many companies have you sign agreements that you can't work for competitors, etc
Finally - in the future, you might also want to creating a formal agreement so they can't come back and sue your butt if something goes wrong.
Remember, this is a business relationship.
--- have you healed your church website?
I had this happen to me once. As I was being downsized my employeer said something to the effect of "And if we have any problems with Xyz, etc, can we call you?"
I said "Absolutely. My consulting fee is $250/hour. I would be happy to help".
They actually did end up calling me once, and I did happily help them. TANSTAAFL.
Robert
Same thing happened to me, old boss owed money etc.. They called me one day to do some stuff... I explained they had outstanding bills and my current hourly rate was now double the previous. They agree, and we were both happy.
Yeah, I got laid off like 5 months ago too, and we knew it was coming. So, my ex-boss decides not to have me do certain jobs during my last weeks of employment because he would just contract them to me after I was laid off. I didn't fight, because I knew I was being laid off, and also because I knew something he didn't...
I was going to charge him about 4x what he would have paid me in salary if he kept me employed by him. (this was because I didn't know if I would find work quickly right away)
When the time came and I sent him a quote and a contract, he sends me an email saying "I'm not much interested in signing a contract. I want to see a quote for exactly what work you will be performing." I sent a more detailed quote and told him "I don't work without a contract." He wrote back and said "Your hourly is too high, lower it and I'll reconsider." I wrote back with "My hourly is too low, but I'll give you a one-time 15% discount if it'll help you to reach a quicker decision."
He never wrote back.
I don't work for free (as in beer).
Dave
I was laid off from my old employer and I had lots of expense vouchers still unpaid. They announced to me that my last day would be March 25th. I knew the layoff was coming for a while before it was announced so it wasnt a shock to me. I always document all the work I do and put it all together into a binder which I gave my replacement guy. ( The company was shutting down and it was cheaper to get a once a week consultant than pay me a full salary for the next 4 weeks )
.. I just dont want to be stuck in a situation where I do work and dont get the money
They wanted me to change their domain name information to their new sub company which they had purchased and wanted the speedy service from Verisign which costs $29 per domain. They asked me to expense this as well. Now This is the last week Im working there and I refused to expense it since (a) I hadnt been re-imbursed yet and (b) The new guy they hired should be the one who does it.
But they kept calling me over and over again to have me migrate their domains to the new sub company even after they laid me off. Now this is the irony. I am not the Administrative contact on the domain, so the other 2 people on the list could have done it as well. But for some reason they chose to pester me to do upto 5 weeks after they laid me off.
2 weeks ago one of my old bosses contacted me on ICQ and asked me to do some web work for their new company. So far I havent said yes or no
dvNuLL
I quit the motel I was working at (usually referred to as the "Jihad Hilton") about four months ago. The friend of the family that received the management position that I was up for still calls me on a regular basis to beg for help with their computer system.
At any rate, I dance around every answer as best as I can, doing my best to make it quite clear that I know how to solve the problem, but that I am no longer on their payroll, no longer suffering from curry poisoning, and no longer willing to give a damn about their business.
Of course, I do give them the option of hiring me on as a consultant for five hours a week (at an hourly rate of $4000.00 USD per hour) or alternatively handing me half the stock in the business.
They haven't taken me up on my offer yet. Too bad, considering that part of it would involve writing a driver for their screwed up printer (one of the newer multifunc. Canon dealies and a Caldera Linux based motel management system, iirc).
xScruffx
why in the hell did u help her out if you're no longer working for the company?!? first, you shouldnt had posted a stupid article depicting an embarrassing event in your life. therefore, next time wear a sign around your neck reading "will work for food". maybe than we'll have some respect for you.
If this happened to me, I would agree to do the job at consultancy rates. In other words, I'd make it really expensive, and charge by the hour. Then, I would take a long time to get the job done, on purpose. In other words, I'd figure out what the problem is, then play video games for a few days or so, and then, voila, the network is working again! They'll be so greatful to have it working again that I'd mention the possibility of servicing them once a month for a (somewhat) lower rate (like two cents lower), to prevent future catastrophies. Oh yeah, and I'd demand a free case of Negra Modelo.
as you let them.
I just recently had something very similar happen to me. I had created a simple web site for somebody last spring, and included instructions to modify the files (he didn't want to pay me to update the site, but wanted me to teach him how to do it). I provided him with some basic ftp instructions, and told him to not modify parts between the symbols (php pages). Using proper HTML was up to him.
A few months later his host upgraded the server his site was on. I modified the templates for him at no charge - no need to burn bridges, and it was fairly easy for me to fix.
A few months after that, he tried updating the site and botched it - he did not download the files first, but instead used copies on his local machine already (downloaded before the server was upgraded). Once he started getting php error messages, he contacted me, accusing me of giving him bad instructions (actually, he said I "wrote the site incorrectly") and I need to fix it right away. Very demanding, very accusative, and unwilling to answer any questions. After a few messages full of him sidestepping my questions (presumably because he did not want to admit he didn't follow the instructions), I was able to figure out what happened, and told him that since he did not follow the instructions it was not my fault.
I told him I'd only charge for a half hour of work to fix it. I made the price low because I wasn't in need of the money - it was meant to get the point across that this work is above and beyond the original deal. The total cost to him would have been twenty-three dollars and fifty cents. He kept fighting me and insisting that he is not a moron. (his justification? "I'm the head of a marketing department." Oh, I'm sorry, you couldn't be a moron, then!)
After a week, I told him I would fix it on the condition that he never contact me again. I told him there was clearly nothing I could do to make him a satisfied customer short of doing everything for free. I told him I'd gladly lose twenty-three dollars just to never have to deal with him again. I told him I hoped the time he spent fighting me was worth no more than twenty-three dollars.
I don't regret burning that bridge. If the other party has no interest in reimbursing you for your work, then you're not really even buring a bridge - you're getting rid of excess baggage.
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
What a sucker. Let me get this straight... The ex-boss who laid you off calls you up at your new place of employment and DEMANDS you help her? And you comply, like a trained dog? And only complain about not getting a THANK YOU? Man. You need some serious assertiveness training.
You have zero obligations to help out Ms. Demanding. Your relationship was a business contract between employer and employed. That contract was ended. Send her the bill, and make it juicy for emergency services rendered.
Can't walk through life with other people's boot prints on your back.
Derek
Your attitude and actions just prove that Geeks suck at business.
As someone who's worked in the computer industry for 16+ years, as employee, temp, contractor, and freelance, I've covered pretty near all the bases and situations.
And yes, I have had previous employers and/or clients ask me for "help" some time after we'd parted ways. Sometimes it's just a simple, "Do you happen to remember where...?"-type question. Occasionally, it's rather more involved. Once, I had a client who'd lost the documentation files I'd worked on, and they were -desperate- to know if I had a backup copy (I did; I always do).
I have some very simple rules regarding these requests for help. If it is something I can answer in 10 minutes or less of phone or email time, no problem. I see this sort of service as simple good customer relations.
If it sounds like it'll be longer than that, I say, "I'll be glad to help you, but you need to understand that I need to pay the bills and make a living, too. My standard hourly rate is $x/hour, with a two hour minimum for off-site work and an eight hour minimum for on-site. As soon as you send me a faxed authorization letter on company letter head and a purchase order number against which we can charge my time, we can do business."
The bozos and those cheapskates looking for a free ride usually bugger off right quick. The people who are serious and ethical hardly ever blink an eye -- because to them, it's simply business.
she didn't even give you a complimentary reacharound...
well, did you enjoy doing work for free at least ?
Yes, it could be an opportunity, but take into account their past conduct.
For example, I was called by a former employer to do some work after I'd left. I agreed after negotiating an hourly rate with my former boss, and performed the work. When I tried to bill them, the accounting department refused to issue me a "vendor ID number" to bill against, claiming that they didn't do consulting with former employees. Without that ID, they would not honor any invoices. Bottom line is that I got screwed out of a few hundred bucks.
Well, not long after that, I got another call from my former boss begging for help, apologising for the "mixup" and trying to appeal to the "nice guy" in me. Not wanting to burn any bridges, I explained to him that I was not willing to extend any credit to the company, based on past failure to settle my valid invoice.
For me to do any more work, I told him, I would need the past bill paid, and a deposit equal to the anticipated cost of the new work. If the actual bill were lower than anticipated, I would refund them. If the number of hours involved exceeded the amount of the deposit, I would stop work until a further deposit were paid, etc.
In the end, they didn't agree to the terms (big surprise), but by blaming the company's accounting department, I avoided alienating my former boss.
I worked as System/Network admin for a small internet company (I was employee #30, it got up to 80 before the 'burst'.) Well, I left on decent terms. The CEO loved me, but my direct boss (a VP) wasn't a big fan of my working style. (He's part of the reason that I was let go before the other IT guy.) A couple months ago (after I had been gone for more than a year and a half,) I stopped in to say hi to everyone, and gave my old boss (the VP) my business card. I had recently started my own computer consulting company, and after hearing that they had laid off the last full-time IT guy, I thought they'd be interested in using my new company as an on-call IT resource. (The lead programmer was doing double duty as IT guy, and he hates Windows, so I figured they could use my company for Windows issues, and save the programmer the headaches.)
Well, a couple weeks after that, the lead programmer calls me directly, and asked a quick question about one of our servers. (A hardware question, he is defenitely not a hardware guy.) Now, I liked him, I got along great with him, so since the answer could be relayed in less than 5 minutes over the phone, I went ahead and told him.
But, if my old boss (the VP) had called instead, I would have told him point-blank "Well, Rent-A-Geek can have a technician down there for you next Tuesday for our normal rate of $100 an hour, or if you need it now, I can have someone there immediately at our emergency call rate of $200 an hour."
(If you're curious about my company, visit our website. Yes, the web page isn't the greatest, but hey, we don't do web design, we do administration and troubleshooting. I'm actually shopping around for a new web designer to give it a makeover.)
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
Screw it so you didnt tell them you needed upfront payment, now turn the tides Bill em and see if their as nice as you. If they pay GREAT! If not dont make a fuss out of it.
Did you at least get a blowjob out of it?
"We're gonna need a bigger boat"
I don't see what you're fussing about. Charge them for your time at the standard consulting rate. Next time agree on a rate before you start work. Companies have no emotions, they are not your good friends, and believe me they can find the money to pay you. So don't feel sorry for them a little bit. But by the same measure, there's no need to feel vindictive about your layoff. It was a cold hard (and maybe bad) economic decision. That's the way it is these days. All the more reason why you should get paid.
And you let them do it! When they don't volunteer for the job, you go to the web and ask. You do whatever the you think is the best thing for you to do, based on *your* needs and *your* values. My advice to you is to figure out for yourself what those needs and values are and act upon them. To hell with your former employer, to hell with all the people who are telling you what to do, and to hell with whoever got you thinking this way in the first place.
Just say no.
I'm not the most altruistic person in the world, but even I have done a bit of unpaid work for previous employers after the fact. Think of it as relationship maintanence - particularly if a good reference will help you land your next paying job. Otherwise, just let them know you're too busy to come in - or that your wife/husband/significant other won't let you work any more unpaid hours. Most companies will agree or find someone else and move on.
About Mother Theresa's integrity and morale, see e.g. this or this...
Not that much karma to lose, anyhow! :-)
Karma: Excellent (My Karma? I wish...:-( )
She defintely will value you higher in the future if you ask for money. Perhaps it's also your start for a new career as freelancer.
If she complains about the price, argue that she could have asked somebody else, but this other person would have taken much more time (doesn't know the system) and would be more expensive per hour.
What do we call people who work for free and like it? COMMUNISTS! if everyone worked for free how would we all eat... and if you don't eat you can't coach little league... or even buy cake mix for the PTA Bake sale... and forget about the church... they are out to take all your cash as it is... its not a matter of socialism... its a matter of survival.
For about 4 years I worked for a state emergency management agency, and during that time, I developed an incident database, with which their comm center still uses to this day. During my time with them I made many friends, and the database system I developed was refered to by the employees there as my "datababy".
:)
I have been contacted several times with questions and I still go down there to troubleshoot problems or help them out. I don't get paid (in fact I got a parking ticket once while helping them out) for any of the work, but I consider it good P.R. for my reputation. There have been several fringe benefits (they provide the food/drink, I do the work).
No matter what kind of relationship you had with your ex-boss, it always boils down to money. If you were let go for financial reasons, then you need to realize that they thought they didn't need you. (i know what that's like). When they decided they do need you (i also know what that is like) then make it only about money, not friendship, not christianity, not charity. I've been through a similar situation (i was offered my old job back, plus new responsibilities) and as a christian, it was difficult to maintain any semblance of the spirit that we are expected to have. The only way I dealt with the situation was to realize that it is always about money, no matter how jovial the relationship with your employer.
I live in Belgium.
:p)
Here, when a registered professional does some work for someone, if neither the client and pro made a written order form or contract beforehand, the law considers that by _knowingly_ letting the pro work on his premises, he agrees on a tacit contract.
If then he refuses to pay the bill that the pro sends, he can be legally bound to do so.
Moreover a very simple procedure allows the pro to have the cleint's banck accounts freezed if he refuses to do so and for as long as it takes the case to be solved. (so these problems usually get settled veeery fast
don't US laws have similar provisions ?
A similar thing happened to me - my ex employer had their mail relay and net gateway running on a SPARC Ultra 5 r00ted (Solaris 2.6, NO PATCHES!!! - what did they expect??) Basically they employ staff to a salary, not a standard. (I wasnt even working in IT at that place, I was teaching media production! - hey times were hard you do what you can) I was asked if I could fix it - I happened to know that they were planning on replacing the Solaris box with an Exchange server (which even they could manage) however they didnt have anyone that knew how to set it up, and I was working for another company.
:o)
I agreed to do a days consultancy for them where I built their new mail server. I left after the day, with their SPARC Ultra 5 which was the deal I negotiated.
Here's my take:
:
,etc. ) are included!
You probably would have done better to have stated , up front, your hourly rate and expenses. If you don't know how much your time is worth, break down your old salary to an hourly rate and double it.
This should cover the amount that you need to cover taxes, medical insurance ( assuming you had that at before you were laid off ) etc.
If the client ( that's right - client - they did lay you off and you no longer work for them as an employee ) accepts this hourly rate , then you go onsite. If you want to charge for travel time, go ahead.
Make sure that you provide them with a written statement of your hourly rate and the scope of work that you will perform. Something as simple as
Hourly rate = 50.00 (USD) (minimum charge 2 hours )
Travel = 1 hour of billable time
Scope of work: Troubleshooting networks. Toilets will not be cleaned, nor dry cleaning delivered.
Don't go for the daily rate thing on a one off assignment like this. You will end up sorely abused!
Before you leave the client site, have the responsible party sign a time sheet or invoice. Provide them with a copy, but retain one, with their signature, for yourself.
If you do go with an invoice instead of a time sheet, make sure all charges (travel, cell phone
Once you've received payment, take out the necessary amount for taxes, etc, and stick it in a bank account. Or be bold, and just spend all of it. The downside of the latter plan is that you might get busted by the IRS ( I knew someone who did. Long story..build a campfire some night and I'll tell it )
I'm not going to say you were stupid for doing the work, but chalk it up as a lesson learned and remember next time: Never do free work for a former employer unless they've been paying your bills, trying to find you a new job, taking your kids to soccer practice, etc. Once you're a former employee, you don't have an obligation to do pro bono work for your former employer.
Even if they call and say "This is something you screwed up while you were our employee. Fix it for free or else", you don't work for free. Once the employer/employee relationship is over, it's over.
And besides, the above scenario ( which does happen ) is commonly referred to as extortion in the legal world.
Remember: There is a price for doing business. If they can't pay you that price, then they can't afford to pay anyone else, and probably shouldn't be in business.
Xibalba: My hell. Your hell. Our hell!
I left my last job due to some issues between me and my manager/supervisor. Wasn't a good parting. Once they realised that neither one of them could run a network and they had servers crashing left and right because they would never buy me hardware or software to upgrade anything. I get a call a week later begging for me to come in and fix things. I flat out said I'll fix all your problems for $125 an hour. He hung up and I never heard from them again. I heard that they ended up paying a company close to $250 an hour to fix it all. Still without those needed upgrades so they were back in the same boat the next week. They eventually hired an ex-IBM guru who I met when I went in for some HR paperwork. She talked nice but the ego was strong in this one and it showed bigtime. She also had nothing fixed and I had people coming up to me left and right as I walked down the halls begging me to fix their problems. I did for a few people I liked until the IBM lady busted me and told me to stay off her network. Oh, well. There were more things against the bosses but it would be ten pages of shit so I won't bore you all.
Corporations are NOT people in and of themselves and have no ethics. They are not NICE or KIND or GRATEFUL. Their memories of you ARE accounting records. Get cash. Charge a VERY LARGE fee, some thing that will be remembered. Never ever make the mistake of believing well of a company. Of an individual, yes, but never of a company. A company is a fictitious entity with no soul.
Worse yet - if you are expecting that because you operated out of the goodness of your heart and saved the day you will be rehired or gain some other favor - b**lsh*t. Your boss claimed it was his/her doing, that she/he could have called anyone. Second, from the viewpoint of the corporation, you obviously don't understand that what you do has value, so won't operate within the corporation aligning your self-interest with its own (probably why they canned your ass in the first place). You are one of those starry-eyed idiots who operate under the illusion of being a good person with ethics. God help you.
i'd just send an invoice asking for whatever hourly wage you wanna ask for what you've done :)
i think that legaly you have all the right to do so.
If I left on acceptable terms, I'd be willing to do the work, but for a fair price. After all, I'm not working there any more, and my skills are my livelihood.
If I left on less-than-acceptable terms, I'd probably say no, or bill them through the nose, making them aware of the price beforehand, of course.
Turning the other cheek is allowing them to benefit from your skills again. But when you were working for them, they paid you, right? Why give them a freebie? They aren't about to hand you anythign for free, and they didn't evenm offer up a Thank-you! Fee-for-service is Not an un-Christian thing to do.
On a Friday they gave me a no money review (this was a few months after 9-11) and told me I was "the most important cog in operations" on Tuesday they said they no longer needed a Sys Admin and that my office was being cleaned out as we spoke.
I left. My laptop had been set up to erase the hard drive on Friday morning at 09:15 UNLESS I specifically stopped it from doing so. (This was a known thing and something I warned them about before I left.)
On Monday they called me. Something is wrong with your old laptop.
I told them 1500USD an hour (which was ludicris of course) and lunch everyday I was there.
They didn't call back.
4 out of seven servers went down the next week.
The next monday they did.
I told them I was unavailable.
This
Business as usual
When she called you no saturday, she hired you back. Be very gracious about getting your job back. Before you see her, tell all the old coworkers that she hired you back when she called you on saturday. Go back in, and THANK her for calling you Saturday and getting your job back.
again, be very very gracious
Kill her with kindness. Best case: you get your job back. Worst case: you make her look like the ass she is and you get a day of fun.
I contracted for a few months for a very well known multinational electronics corporation.
When the end of the contract period was in sight, and no other contracts could be found, I was able to negotiate a permanent position with another organization within the same corporation.
After having started my permanent job, I got a call from the organization I contracted for, in which they demanded that I add features they never requested while I was contracting. They expect me to do this immediately, AND for free, since I'm now an employee of the corporation, despite the fact that I work for a completely different organization.
I suppose I'm expected to do this in the abundant spare time I don't have, on top of getting up to speed on my new job and trying to squeeze in a life in the time I don't have left over.
Incredible, isn't it? I mean, where does it end? What if they call me again in 3 months asking for more pro bono work? It's ridiculous.
Needless to say, my new boss is not happy about this situation, and neither am I.
Turn the situation around.
...
...
If YOU called HER five months after departure and asked her to do something (demanded), what would she say?
Unofficially, she sounds like a typical Machiavellian* psycho nouveau manager idiot. [*Suggestive of or characterized by expediency, deceit, and cunning.]
When my employer fired me, the customers immediately began calling me for help. Then, just to stop it, my disgruntled former employers immediately told the customers that I was an idiot. Then, something went wrong. My digruntled former employers called me for help which I provided without charge. [I hoped that I would be re-hired, so I did it gratis.] Then, my disgruntled former employers restarted their disinformation campaign against me.
Of course, I couldn't get my management to fix my pay, my retirement, my insurance, get me a machine, pay their bills, or send me the software releases before they sent them to the customers. So, when it came to helping them
Frankly, I try to leave on a mutual respect basis; however, when the management has no respect for the company or the employees or the customers or themselves
I would never work under those conditions. :)
If the ex-boss asked nicely I'd probably do it for free.
The reasonning here:
If she demanded then she thinks it was her demanding that got the work done and not my hard effort.
That I'm not worth any consideration.
She'll just forget me if pizza comes it while I'm working and later if a job opens for my old spot she'll look elsewhere.
If she asks nicely I'll do it for free becouse then she's comming at it from the viewpoint of "as a favor" that it's my valuable work and my kindness. If pizza is here I'd probably ask em to save me a slice.. no pizza on the hardware
If a job came in I could have a shot. An interview slot or better yet just a contract.
She'd bo sooo much happyer with me should she ask for my help instead of demanding it.
It's actually hard work to demand stuff and that will be considered latter.
My time is worth my results not my results minus the effort to demand I do something.
She should not benifit from demanding stuff.
I don't actually exist.
Rule #1. It's Business.
Rule #2. Pay me.
Rule #3. It was never personal.
While I freely admit I don't run my life off these rules I do repeatedly remind myself of them anyway.
I've helped a previous employer out a couple weeks after I was laid off. The prior-president of the company had moved to another city and in doing so his HD failed. I helped him install windows over the phone. Probably cost me a couple of dollars in longdistance.
On the other hand, 6-8 months after working for my new company I received a call and was asked if I could do some work for them through the company I was working for now. (The first was a distribution company, the second a consulting company). So, the company I worked for got the work, and I got paid to help a previous employer.
A couple years later the guy who was running the IT department after I left had lost his job and moved to another company, he gave my name to a consultant looking for a new employee to pickup some extra work he had available. I got the job and have been happier working for this company than previous. (amusingly doing pretty much the same work, but thats another story).
Did it help being a nice guy? Sure. Did it make up for the couple of dollars I spent on a long distance call, sure.
Would it have paid to be a really nice guy and do the work for them on the side when I was working for the consulting company... no. could have cost me my job and would not have been worth the pay.
If a previous employer calls you up and wants you to do some work for them do it, and charge them consulting rates to do it. If they won't pay then they don't actually want you to help them.
If they are only offering it to you because it would cost them less (and not because you can do it in less time because you know the system) then don't take it. It probably isn't in your interest. (10% less is one thing... 75% less is another...)
"I have beeb unemployed for over 5 months..." i cnat get a job eether, i jsut got fierd as a data entreey klerk.. y?
And you now have a company out there who believes they paid you fairly for a Flash job, and knows that you produced lousy, unmaintainable code. It seems to me like you shot yourself in the foot.
I did get a few calls from the employer of my last job. I had been there for a while, and I really wanted to see the products that I worked on there succeed. I didn't want it all to get washed down the drain because they needed some small configuration change, and they couldn't figure it out.
After I fixed them out of their mess, I'd walk around the office with the boss and chit chat. Ask him what his future plans were for the business, make suggestions on them, point out some aspects of the current system that probably needed some work, etc. While I was at it, and while we were walking, I started laying hints for stuff around the office that I wanted. ("Oh, you had that book. I was looking all around my house for it... Hey, has anyone needed that oscilliscope since I left? etc.")
Bubba, you are under no obligation to help a company that no longer employs you.
Your first response, assuming that you wanted to do the work, should have been, "I'd be happy to execute a contract for this job. When would you like to take me to lunch?"
Dang, this is exactly what happened to me last March when my former employer CEO called me up and asked that I do a little work for him in regards to the project that I had worked on formerly.
I was working for Maximum Charisma Studios in Denver Colorado. They released a product in 2001 that was poop and the company went chapter 7, fired all employees on the last week of January of 2001. Everyone was fired with dignity and the company went down with minimal looting and not a lot of hostility.
The company was trying to sell it's online multiplayer game product design and code to another company and so the product was still online and in collocation. Well, there was a bug that had been plaguing us that had not been fixed before everyone was fired.
Hey, this is going to turn into a Microsoft bashing story too! Cool.
The problem was that the software clients that ran on a bunch of Windows 2000 Servers would have problems forwarding or processing UDP packets after about 30 days. This was consistent on all of the servers. 30 days and the UDP would stop, the ports would get held hostage, and absolutely nothing would fix the problem beyond the typical Windows fix of rebooting.
30 days rolled around and the systems stopped working. They tried to reboot them, but there was a special procedure to getting it all to work, plus a very key system had died with a failed RAID controller, which made things worse. So, they called me and ask me to do the work.
There is a quote that I remember right here from Slashdot. It had to do with work/employee related stuff.
"Never consult for free."
I heard about the problem that they had, negotiated what exactly needed to be done, and said that I would do the work for $1,000.00 flat, and could have everything online within 48 hours. We did it respectfully and nobody lost their composure over the phone while I worked this deal out.
It went pretty good, I got my $1K cheque and it got cashed. I did the work and everything was online again. If they sold the product off or not, I don't recall.
The point is that I made my former employer understand that it did not pay my bills to work for free, and that if it was in our mutual interest to do business then we could, for a price which we agreed upon. Everyone was happy when we were done.
Now, if the former employer had been hostile from the start, I question if I would have taken the project on at all. And if I had, I would have made a written contract be signed prior to any work being done. And in the case of financial instability and the possibility of bankruptcy on their part and me not being able to collect on the work done, I would have required a deal that put the funds into special holding by a third party or something similar.
The problem is that the unhappy employer is probably going to do something bad to you. More is broken than they tell you and they are going to blame the broken on you and ask that you fix it for free or they will sue. They are going to try to make you feel guilty into helping them, they are going to do whatever it takes to get some work done by you for free.
Don't deal with bitter former employers or employees unless you absolutely have to, you are going to profit from it, and you make sure that it is going to turn out exactly how you think it will.
Then I most humbly apologize for assuming you were out of line.
I'm actually in a very similar situation, sort of. I left my job of seven years because of little praise, minimal recognition of my acheivements, and no where near enough pay for the SF Bay Area. I've now moved to Spokane, WA. Now they've called me up, and are talking about flying me down. I discouraged that particular solution, and recommended that an employee be allowed to attempt it. Now, if he screws up, which I don't think he will, they will fly me down.
This is a long way of saying, it depends. I don't think I'd give a freebie to that particular unthankfull boss again, where I you. I won't help the same kind of boss (which I had), but there are others I will help. Money, of course does help, but I don't think that it should be the end all. If you haven't asked, however, I would use what is effectively a favor, call it in, and get these people to put your name out as a team player, a person to be hired, make a network out of them. Make sure that the "we would have kept him if we could have" gets out too.
As to the "just screw them" attitude that seems a little too prevailent on this thread, I'm disappointed.
and tell him/her the person that called you can't do the job and is calling you for help.
Tell him/her you want her job, and can do it better(which is obvious since she called you).
It sounds like your being an ass, but lets look at it:
She is hurting the company by not knowing what she is doing, and by having an attitude. So if you are kind, shouldn't you imform the people who need the help that they are in trouble?
2)You need work,(I presume). She is calling you, demanding you take your time, and fix a screw up she is in. She is not the kind of employee that does a company any good.
3) she is hostile towards you. As a human being, you do not need to tolerate that, and since your kind, shouldn't you do your best to see that she doesn't treat other emplyees(or ex) that way?
Run your carrer like a business, because know one else out there has your interest, if they did, would you be un-employed?
If you don't want to do that, next time charge 250 dollars an hour. with a minimum hours of twice what you think it will take. I'm serious, if she needs you, you'll get it. espcially if you are saving her ass. It's not like it will come out of her money, just her budget.
As a human being, you do not need to take that kind of crap.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
His ex-boss's, that's who. Could be that Bubba-boy felt tht he was over a barrel on this one, if he refused his ex-boss might give give him a bad reference. Anybody have any ideas on how to avoid falling into this trap? I can think of two:
- Ask for a letter of reference on the day you leave the company (unless you're getting fired for cause, of course).
- Be sure to have more than one manager in the company who can be used as a reference.
Wanted: One witty yet thought provoking
In all sincerity, under the TSA, if you do something NOT as an employee, you could be accused of domestic terrorism. As a non-employee, if you work on her company's software, it classifies as 'hacking.' 'Hacking' is a terrorist act under the TSA. If she gets a nasty, she could rat you out.
... No! Wait! You already did it! ... ... What's that FBI anti-terror number, again? 800 RAT M OUT?
Cool. Do free work (without so much as a 'thank you'). Go to Federal Penn.
My thoughts would be, if she asked you to do it for free
I second this. If you've been out of work for some time, and I sorta think you have by the sounds of it, a new job is going to be worth more to you then any amount you can screw out of a former employer.
If you piss off your old boss, guess what they are going to say when a prospective employer calls up. The company might have a policy of not giving references, but most people will answer specific questions over the phone. Your old boss may even know some one from the new company.
In my final year of University I tutored some first and second year CS labs. I little while ago I received and email from some one else who also tutored that year. The company he was now working for was hiring, and one of the applicants studied at our old University and was in the years we tutored. Did I, or any of the our other friends, know and remember this person? No one did, but a bad comment at that stage would have lost him the job?
Sounds unfair? Sure it is, but if your hiring some one, specialy straight out of University, you have very little to go on. You may have 10 (or 100) people with about the same skills sets, about the same skill level, and all willing to take the job at the price you want. If you know there is a slight risk in hiring person #2, of course you'll hire some one else.
The moral of this somewhat OT story? Don't burn bridges. Social networks can help you find jobs, but they can also loose you jobs, and you will never know about it.
Democracy isn't about no one telling you what to do. It's about everyone telling you what to do.
There's really only one answer to this query...
"I can be at the office in forty minutes. You give me a blowjob, I fix your LAN. Do we have a deal?"
If you're really lucky, she'll hang up on you, then call back in an hour when the situation gets really desparate...
"Ah, I thought you might call back. Well, the price just went up..."
I agree with most of the poster. Charge the corporation! I did work for a former boss and I knew he couldn't pay out for a small application that was used in house and was not compatible with the new printer server... He offered barter... I got a fairly new pc with a flat LCD... it's kind of morbid since it was from a employee which was laid off... and a friend.
make sure next time (which there probably will be) charge the going consulting rates. Tell her it has to be that way from now on. Ask for for more, then let her bargain down. she will feel in charge and you now have your first customer. if she doesn't agree... move on...drop her...she'll call back...maybe...if she doesn't who needs a cheap-skate anyway. u sound like a weakling at the moment....get some guts in general!!
Dog knows, I'm no Christian, but Jesus did say whatever you do unto the least of these, you do unto me. And as far as I see it an INC is the least of these.
Someone hates these cans.
If it takes less than about 5 seconds to respond, and it doesn't happen too often, I usually try to do it for nothing.
That said, I did have a former employer that did want a saturday of my time to help train my replacement. Since I wasn't doing the contracting, I didn't want to deal with the hassels of getting paid, I knew they had a bunch of laptops that were being replaced. I told them I wanted a laptop for the time spent, and I got it.
1)Consider the relationship. Under what conditions would you work with this company? ($, notice, regard, etc.)
2) Write a letter to her (cc:'ing her boss) recapping the events, and offering this relationship.
WARNING: Spell check any quotes that you might use below:
First, quickly recap the events.
To tell them that they should not expect free work, say: "As a rule I normally I do not perform work probono, but your call to me conveyed the enormity of your problem."
To further approach the subject of the relationship:"In your initial call and while I solved the problem for you we focused solely on getting your environment running again. Now that the emergency is over we need to establish a protocol for my future engagement, as I can't promise my availability otherwise. I was happy to help you once for this emergency, and a formal agreement between us will allow me to assist in the future." (anyone got a less verbose way of saying this?)
To convey that she didn't thank you, be proffessional and assume that she wanted to, but didn't have a chance. Say something like "You haven't had an opportunity to convey your thanks for my help, but I'm confident that getting the network functioning again was appreciated. I was happy to help, and look forward to establishing a formal protocol for our future relationship."
You might also say (non-condiscendingly) "There is evidence that the network would benefit from some proactive administrative tasks. Please contact me for more information retaining my services to perform these tasks." (Have a list of tasks ready that would prevent the emergency in the future. Also do a google search for a consultant contract and have that ready for them.)
IMHO: If you speak to her as if you are a professional who deserves (and receives from others) professional regard, this will improve your relationship with her (and this company). If she is not willing to approach you professionally then calmly and kindly inform her that she will have to go elsewhere for help. Spend time earning this higher regard by researching and preparing your proactive tasks.
Also, make sure to copy her boss on this! If she is angered by this, she is not someone that you should have to work with in the future anyway.
post your cell phone number...i've got a ton of work and could use some free labor.
Congratulations, PhysicsScholar! A winner is you!
I agree w/ ali_bubba that burning bridges is a bad idea. And it is easy to do so unintentionally too, so be careful what you say and do and around who! If a former employer calls me, I will help them out over the phone. By doing so, I now have contract work with my previous employer. But I have also left on less-than-ideal terms before. When I worked at a medium-sized web company, the COO (one of my direct bosses) took a comment I made in e-mail to be a blow against him directly, which was simply a misunderstanding that I think I worked out before my last day there. And then at my next job (a non-profit biotech), I gave two weeks notice that I was taking a job in another region of the state and the Marketing VP (my primary boss) seemed rather pissed that I couldn't make it four weeks. He had HR sign me own as a contract worker after my last day there, but I was never called back and a month later received a "end of contract hire" letter. This brings a question to bare that I know has been asked at /. many a time before: is it really so wrong to give only two weeks when that is the HR standard?
>> ...to which Riker would give him a look, and say 'Your son, sir?'
;-)
> Hmmm, that just seems a bit cheesy.
God forbid that Star Trek should become *cheesy*!!
i've burnt every single bridge i've crossed! the bitch wouldn't dare call me!
Jerry Fletcher,
Privacy Protection By:
http://www.cotse.net/servicedetails.html
Twice,
first I was once dismissed from a Catholic School without any month of advise nor explanation:
Before the trial they offered me some money or the option of recovering my job.
I said, NO - I want the money (obvious:))
Second, I was dismissed from a company that went to bankrupt. Some months later, my ill boss came to me asking me to open some accounts in the PC's cash program to see some numbers.
I said, may be, when you pay me what you owe me for now being jobless.
The boss said that he couldn't.
Now, I don't feel guilty. Just tired of being fired after doing all the silly things that they asked me to, without complaining, ever.
Rwe obliged 2 save our future by choosing:O3 hole-greenhouse effect instead of accepting everydays gossip-nonsense chat?