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Senator Orrin Hatch a Pirate?
Stigmata669 writes "Remember a few days ago when Senator Orrin Hatch decided that software piracy was punishable by destruction of computers? Well a bored and unemployed Sys. Admin in Houston smelled a rat when he was rooting through Hatch's website source. As it turns out Sen. Hatch is a common software pirate himself."
Ready... aim... Fire! Slashdot him!
The article title is just alittle bit senstational... The senator's web designer didn't register *free* software (you have to pay for commerical use only). He was in violation of the software license. Obviously nobody on slashdot has ever violated a software license (if not please direct me to all that shareware you registered in under 30 days).
It hardly damages his stance against downloading music.
I'd say the only thing really damaging there is that he's from Utah.
Oh well, keep fighting the good fight.
-Rob
That's why software should be free?
I have been pwned because my
You're right. Hatch isn't the pirate, his web designer is, but it doesn't make it any less funny and ironic. :P
This guys knows how to advertise himself. Imagine getting your name out there in the mass median and the fact you are unemployed.
-----
One is born into aristocracy, but mediocrity can only be achieved through hard work.
it's a lot easier and software-licence free to do it using css. All you need to do is hide the html part of each menu, and when the menu title is moused-over, the css, and something like two lines of JavaScript, will display the menu. No muss, no fuss.
Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
Africus aut Europaeus?
Don't call him a "pirate," unless he was proven guilty of abordage! Otherwise we just sound silly, claiming that Dimitry was not a pirate, but Orrin Hatch suddenly is. Please don't be so inconsistent. Pirate is a pirate. A person guilty of copyright infringement is a person guilty of copyright infringement. Please don't use incorrect meanings of words, at least on Slashdot.
Karma: Positive (probably because of superiour intellect)
and everyone knows that the senator is the one who made his site! who cares if his hired webmaster uses unliscenced JS? it's not the senator, i'll tell you that - he probably doesn't even know about it.
You're an idiot. I live in utah too and even though Orrin Hatch is scum, the only way he won't be reelected is if he decides not to run.
Not to mention the fact that the seniority system in the senate pretty much means that if he isn't elected utah takes a hit as far as influence goes. Not that utah has a lot of influence, but he is the most influential utah politician in washington right now.
I register all my shareware, or uninstall it before the stated evaluation period ends. If you do otherwise, shame.
I do not install unlicensed software in production environments. My personal computer is different, but I still conform to the license requirements or remove the software.
You're talking to sysadmins here -- you'll find relatively few pirates in the bunch. You might rethink your accusations in light of your audience.
http://drteknikal.blogspot.com/
If someone actually destroyed the server hosting his website, he'd be the first person lining up to put them in jail. Come on, Hatch, of all the things to take a ridiculous stand on; copyrights? Is $18,000/yr really that important to you?
I'd like to see how Hatch's constituents react when they find out he's the one who authored the law that let the music company destroy their computer because little Johnny wanted to hear the latest trendy music hit.
And yes, I understand that no such bill would ever make it anywhere, but for a high-ranking Senator to even suggest such an idea is absolutely unforgiveable. There's no excuse for violating imaginary property rights, but there is an excuse for willfully destroying the physical property of someone? I don't know whether he's really serious about such an idea, but assuming for a moment that there's a bit of sanity left in his noggin, I think he needs to choose his words more wisely. The fact is, this simply cannot work out well for him, and will only provide fuel for his critics and those who would like to take his seat.
Quite frankly, the man has no concept of what he's talking about, and needs to sit down, shut up, and listen to what others have to say for a change.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
nt
MABASPLOOM!
http://www.senate.gov/~hatch/index.cfm?Fuseaction= Students.Utah
And click on the MyUtahSearch.com graphic...
III.IIVIVIXIIVIVIIIVVIIIIXVIIIXIIIIIIIIVIIIIVVIII
Go to Sen. Hatch's web site and click on the "MyUtahSearch.com" graphic on the right hand side of the page. It redirects you to a [not safe for work] pr0n site.
[Thanks to The Turd Report for pointing this out on K5.]
k.
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
..because no one would be afraid of the dread pirate Orin!
Bel, the mostly sane.. "Of course I can't see anything! I'm standing on the shoulders of idiots." -- Me
I was really hoping someone would challenge Hatch to allow them to audit his personal and office computers for infringements. I'd even let the BSA get involved if they had the guts.
To ensure perfect aim, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target
I think this episode just verified that observation.
The scary thing is that because none of us are perfect, anyone with an axe to grind can mill through the most innant details of our personal lives and bring it to the public attention, that of our wife, boss, friends, co-workers, etc.., highly magnifying what they think we did wrong.
This could be quite a way for one to harass another.
Like, now Senator Hatch himself has gone onto public record as advocating destruction of other's private property.. what if instead of some government official talking about destruction of other's property, it was somebody else talking about it? Where are we going to draw the line between a "patriot" and a "terrorist"?
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
People have different definitions of right and wrong. But all definitions of wrong action have one element in common: it's something somebody else does.
So...let me see if I have this straight...slashdot is running an article on an elected official doing something illegal?
We're gonna need more space if this is the start of a trend.
A LOT more space.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
piÂrate
n.
1.
1. One who robs at sea or plunders the land from the sea without commission from a sovereign nation.
2. A ship used for this purpose.
2. One who preys on others; a plunderer.
3. One who makes use of or reproduces the work of another without authorization.
4. One that operates an unlicensed, illegal television or radio station.
What's your point?
Looks like the Rotten Egg that Orrin Hatched may be all over his face.
uR iGn0ranc3, Their Power
Oh my god, what a rare and shocking revelation.
While it is quite funny is see our politibots when they get caught in their hyrpocrisy, I hope I wasn't the only one who wasn't surprised to read this.
This article is like.. well.. like drinking a coke, (or pepsi) after a long session of coding. Refreshing, and very satisfactory, and giddy in a way of what one has accopmlished. The satisfaction of seeing him caught at his own game is awesome. Uh oh, underwear check!
OMG OMG OMG WTF OMG WTF BBQ STFU RTFM, OMFG OMG OMG OMG ROFL LMAO OMG WTF STFU ROFLMAO
(Avoiding the filter is an art. Art rules.)
YOU ARE SO FIRED!
(had to do it)
Laws are for people with no friends.
I'm also from Utah, an ardent Democrat, and there's no chance in hell Hatch will be kicked out of office.
The problem is that he already has a ton of power and pull in Washington where seniority rules. He's chairman of the most esteemed committee in Washington, and has blessing from the Church.
The only person that has a shot to beat him is someone like Rocky Anderson, Salt Lake's Mayor, (also featured on Insomniac tonight) and they would make him out to be the next coming of the devil. After all, he's for (shock) environmental concern, and civil liberties! Utah is a recessive state. Or at least for now...
Face it, Utah politics is as complacent as it gets, and probably why Orrin can say this kind of silliness and get away with it.
It's the glass house idea. I know it isn't piracy per se, but it's a close enough cousin.
Before a person in office criticizes an action, they should make pretty darn sure that they don't even have the appearance of being tainted by the act or anything close. Delegate the role. But check.
The bar is lower for nonpublic figures. Our words don't weigh as much in the public eye.
Now he'll have to be the brunt of embarrassing questions like "why should your computer not be destroyed?" It just weakens his stance.
Esteem isn't a zero sum game
Surely the Senator didn't create the page himself? He might not even know what the Javascript is for. Sure, if he knew that the webmaster was doing something wrong, and he didn't stop it, then he would be at fault, but there's no proof of that here.
Of course, my opinion above is from a common sense perspective, rather than a legal one.
Dropbox drops it like it's hot.
is 'hail to the theif'
I've heard this phrase a lot lately!
Creationists are a lot like zombies. Slow, but powerful and numerous. And they all want to eat our brains.
but is it really possible to remotely fry a motherboard or break my hard drive? And if it is possible, how come this hasn't been written into some worm yet?
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
I just heard some sad news on talk radio - GIF patent US4,558,302 was found expired in its patent office filing cabinet this morning. There weren't any more details. I'm sure everyone in the internet community will miss it - even if you didn't enjoy the litigation, there's no denying its contribution to bandwidth conservation. Truly a compression icon.
... and slashdot readers act suprised?
whee!
Nominate him for DU's Top Ten Conservative Idiots! (Go to the bottom of the page for nominating instructions)
This is funny, but the sad thing is that it will in no way affect Hatch's platform nor media credibility.
I imagine that tommorow a sysadmin and a webdesigner will be out of a job. And that sucks in today's market.
I mean, really, you think an old senator put a website together by himself? WITH javascript!
NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
When I read about Hatch's little idea, this is what I came up with as responses:
1. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
2. What ever happened to getting a warrant?
3. What ever happened to a fair trial in front of a jury of peers?
4. What ever happened to the government running the police, instead of the corporations.
5. What ever happens when someone at a record label royally screws up and fries the hard drive of someone with legiminate copies of MP3's (say of my band or ripped legally from CD's I own)?
The House of Represenatives has a re-election rate of some 96%.
God we need term limits!
> Where are we going to draw the line between a
> "patriot" and a "terrorist"?
A patriot is a terrorist who's on our side; a terrorist is a patriot who's on their side
Got any more?
Ah but since this is software piracy the entire organization is responsible. As the head of his office Sen. Hatch is ultimately responsible for any piracy that goes on in his organization.
Anyway go here http://www.bsa.org/usa/report/ and report Orrin for piracy.
It is very cheap.. Just go ahead and reply with your full name, credit card number w/ date of expiry, and what you want your ad to say, and I'll get you all set up.
I was somewhat involved with Napster back in its heyday. I once visited their office, and was introduced to a new employee who came straight out of Orrin Hatch's office. He used to be an assistant of some sort to Hatch, and was clearly hired by Napster because he could serve as a lobbyist of sorts with some very direct Washington contacts. The funny thing is, as soon as they hired this guy, Hatch came out in strong support of Napster and defended them for a time.
I was amazed, but not surprised. That's not the sort of position one would have expected from the likes of Orrin Hatch, but clearly is ex-assistant was having significant influence on him in Napster's favor. How ironic, yet also unsurprising, that in the wake of Napster's demise, Hatch has pretty much gone 180 degrees from his previous stance.
It's nice to find something that puts his foot in his mouth!
And that takes some extrodinary flexibility considering he already had his head up his ass.
Fools ignore complexity; pragmatists suffer it; experts avoid it; geniuses remove it. ~A. Perlis
Sure you're in Mensa. Otherwise why would you write "complement" when you meant "compliment"? And what does this mean (from your profile)? I hate sexiest men, who are afraid of intelligent women. So, you like ugly men?
Looking through responses to your comments didn't reveal any insults because you claim to be a woman, but rather because you can't write worth a damn. My guess is a) you're not in Mensa and b) you're a guy.
Go to http://www.bsa.org/usa/report/ and report Orrin for piracy
Opportunities to fight oppression don't come up like this everyday. If this doesn't get picked up by the popular press, the word needs to be spread. Email the URL to anyone you think it might influnce. Print the story and show it to you mom or grandma.
This reminds me of all the adulterous legislators who impeached Clinton.
The Milonic DHTML Menu was totally free a little while ago.
For them to change the licensing terms retroactively ( "EVERY copy of our JavaScript menu needs to be licensed" - are they really insiting that older copies that were downloaded with it was advertised as free now be paid for and/or registered?) seems very shady to me.
But a quick look at the Google Cache will let you see the original, licence-violating version.
---
Jedimom.com, leon's getting larger.
StrategyTalk.com, PC Game Forums
...Professor....what is 'pirate booty'...?
So when is someone going to upload an MP3/OGG of him speaking against "piracy" onto Kazaa or Gnutella? (ala Lars of Metallica)
This was linked to off of fark.com yesterday.
But everyone goes up in arms as soon as a company steals some GPL'ed code and includes it in their products ?
If I see an image on a pro photographer's site, and it's got the proper copyright notice and request for royalties if used elsewhere, the fact that it's freely visible on the web, and easy for me to copy probably makes it right for me to use on my own site, despite the request from the author not to right ?
The way this code is available could probably help you learn about Javascript, but if this trend continues, what prevents the author from releasing it as a closed source activex dll in the future ?
I dont buy the "steal it since it's readable" arguments, sorry.
Marriage is considered capital punishment for the theft of a goat in some third world countries...
Hatching up ways to save the tax-payer money huh? He's my kind of politician.
This whole idea is pure idiocy. First off, have you ever heard of that little thing called a trial? Last time I checked, you couldn't be punished unless you were given a lawyer, and a chance to defend yourself on trial, and all that nice constitutional stuff.
On top of that, think about the consequences in a place like a college dorm. Someone piss you off? How about having a great way to put them $2000 in the hole in the 5 minutes it takes to download 3 copyrighted songs- just wait for them to go to the bathroom...
And of course, there's the fact that pretty much every corporation has some unliscensed software on their computers. Wouldn't that be great? The minute this new program goes on line, America's economy collapses because half the corporate workstations in the country blow up.
Yeah, pure genious.
Having taken absolutist or extreme positions on an issue, you can't credibly defend yourself for things that most people would just shrug off.
Bill Bennet cannot credibly author a "Book of Virtues" in adult and children's editions, make $25,000 a speech daily, and then point out that most people gamble and private lives are nobody's business.
Rhonda Storms could not credibly call for the dismantling of Hillsborough Countie's Public Access stations for supposed IP abuses (after losing for years to overcome first amendment responses to her efforts to censor what she deemed offensive programming), requiring that all producers undertake IP sensitivity training, and then defend her unlicensed synchronized parody of the Beach Boys' tune "Help Me Rhonda" in an election commercial as a reasonable oversight.
Likewise, Orin Hatch cannot insist that a few infringements of a few tunes are evil enough to justify a government official's call for destruction of personal property without due process and simultaneously argue that he should be forgiven for not studying a licensing agreement.
Will AOL discs suffice?
Who's the owner of the site ? Hatch or the webmonkey ?
His name is all over the place, it is HIS website, so he should be held accountable of what's found on it. I remember hearing something like "ignorance is not a valid defense".
If I was going to put my name on something I did not write, I'd damn well make sure my legal team audits each and every bit of it to insure I wouldnt get myself in hot water over it.
This man is a self-proclaimed copyright professional. I guess he should have known better.
Marriage is considered capital punishment for the theft of a goat in some third world countries...
Please enjoy this online traval and resource guide to help you explore our great state.
Dont' be to hardon him..
Integrated application integration with synergistic synergized synergy
I called Boring Orrin's office to complain and here was the reply I got:
"Senator Hatch's website was created via a third party who was responsible for the problem. The problem has now been corrected."
Those aren't the exact words but they effectively expressed his staffer's opinion.
But what really got me was the fact that the staffer refused to provide Senator Hatch's take on the matter and really seemed quite nonchalant about the whole affair.
I mentioned that I felt that Senator Hatch bears ultimate responsiblity for what is on his website and that I felt like he should own up to it.
Or to, at the very minimum, help pay the litigation costs of the person whose copyrighted material was stolen so that they could sue the crap out of the "third party web designer".
Once again I basically got a shrug type reaction from the staffer.
Those people don't have a clue!
If you want to make a difference, call Hatch's office, complain, then call your Senator's office and request that they punish him. If it's long distance for you then it will be a few bucks for each call but it will be money well spent.
Caution: Contents under pressure
For the love of god mod this up. I thought he was joking, but it's true! It's true I tell you. http://www.myutahsearch.com/
seeing as how he's in utah, maybe a butte pirate?
Whatchew talkin' bout, Willis? Butte is in Montana...
Senator Hatch is, overall, a great guy. The other congressmen from Utah (except for Jim Matheson, a moderate Democrat who managed to barely hold on to his House seat despite the careful gerrymandering of our terrible State Legislature) vote harder-than-hard-line Republican, often seemingly without any thought. Hatch has genuinely tried to investigate the issues and work towards solutions- even though the solutions he engineers get fairly widely booed in Utah since they may deviate from the Party Line. In just about all previous instances when I have disagreed with Sen. Hatch's views, I have nevertheless felt them to be well-reasoned and somewhat justified.
This time around constitutes an exception. Everybody makes stupid mistakes once in a while, and I hope Hatch manages to pull a course correction on this issue pretty soon.
But I don't think all are and I do not personally think that as many of us adhere to your straight line behaviour (which I'm not criticizing you for by the way).
I think you've got more people in this world fudging on their software than most people believe. Maybe not nearly as many as slip in that extra 5-10 mph while driving but a vast number nevertheless.
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
ROCK THE VOTE!
0110100100100000011000010110110100100000011000100
First of all I was kind of surprised when I first heard about Sen. Hatch's initiative. I am not a big fan of his but very often he looked pretty reasonable to me. IIRC he suppports stem cell research. But going after "pirates" being pirate himself is bad.
That being said I am actually more concerned about independent software developers. And the ways how they can make money and enforce thier licenses. I am not independent developer myself. But I can imagine that doing all that above and actually writing a code could be quite a hassle. I started to think about after I read this this storry.
The thought that occurred to me is this. May be there is a niche for something that we would call (for the lack of a better term) a "software label". It is something like a SourceForge but with a bit muscule behind it. That is for independent software developer it would provide following functions:
1. Hosting a website for given software (that is in essence marketing and advetising).
2. Binaries (or even source code) repository.
3. Handling payments (especially electronic)
4. Legal representation.
Everything except item 4 can be set up on nickel and dime. And regarding lawyers. I hear that here (in the Sil. Valey) a lot of them lost jobs and gladly do lower pay or even pro bono work.
It can even act like an "agent" for a programmer. Just an example. My friend (well actually the guy I talk on IRC a lot) is a free-lancer. Year ago he got a contract to make them a site (linux+appache+php+mysql+lots of other shit). He made it (I was a beta-tester) company got it but now for some lame reason they refuse to pay. He might win but from what I see they are going to suck him dry first.
Point is you wrote a package. But for many reasons (especially now) starting your own company is not feasible yet. In this case it would be nice that there is someone who could handle the "overhead for you".
- Back off man. I am a scientist
the dark side that lurks in every sysadmin ...
YOU SUCK BALLS!
wow, great news. now if only he were a congressman and not a senator.
This of course does not take away from the fact that he's a scumbag of the lowest level, comparable with Ernest Hollings (Sen. Disney).
If you see both of them talk in public, you might note they share a lot of mannerisms, including the skeevy condescension.
I'm a Republican and a conservative and I think he sucks moose dick.
Too bad this Wired story won't get as much play as it deserves.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
And what the hell does that have to do with the Senate?
I agree with you about term limits. 3 Terms for the Senate and 9 for the House would be sufficient.
--Joey
This is similar to those horrid things that the RIAA is trying to produce, and they are clearly getting not too far, like their new "restricted" audio format, and a block switch for portable MP3 players.
It would be extremely difficult to place a hardware kill switch on commodity computers, as that would require going through all computer/motherboard manufacturers, and unless those without these "kill switches" are made illegal, then the manufacturers who comply are likely to be made extremely unpopular. Even if this scenario was to happen, what's preventing people from finding out what kind of packet that this thing uses, and then using this information to either block these "kill requests" or sending them to other people's computers?
In a software solution, that would be even more of a problem, as even in heavily restricted platforms like XP, the company behind it, Microsoft, still exercises only minimial control over the user's computer, and nothing's there to stop them from modifying parts of the OS to prevent it from recognizing the kill signal.
Protocols on the internet only work when they are open, and this particular protocol to "destroy" people's computers is quite closed. If this is to take place, it would be only a matter of time when malicious users could use it to destroy the computers of other people.
How about Smoking Gun? Just an idea, for a case he will wipe that link out.
Less is more !
Does everyone remember all the congresscritters out on the steps singing God Bless America? That had an audience of over a billion but did they pay the royalties to the Boy & Girl Scouts? I bet they didn't even check out the copyright before they decided it was a good idea. But it means they all broke copyright law.
If anyone gets to talk to a Senator, this is a very good thing to bring up. According to standard copyright rates, they all owe more in royalties than most of them will ever see and some of these guys play with the national debt.
I'm visiting the US for a week, and have realised where the power here comes from: The Media.
CNN, MSNBC, FoxNews, ABC/Disney, and ALL of the others seem to be based on pure viceral knee-jerk reporting. If you want to see Sen. Hatch get in trouble, sic the reporters on him.
Seriously. The media is living on exploitation, either their own or others. Exploit them to the best of your abilities, and watch things explode.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Sen. Hatch is a public servant. He surrenders some of his personal privacy to the citizens he serves. I'm pretty sure there's legal precedent for this in the areas of libel/slander; it shouldn't be too hard to apply it in this case.
Moreover, reading page sources hardly constitutes an invasion of privacy. It's a public server on the internet; no attempts are required to circumvent any sort of access control.
Senator Hatch just put his foot in his mouth, took aim, and shot at it. The only problem is, we're the only people who will remember when he's up for reelection. And I'm not going to be able to do a whole hell of a lot about his Senate campaign from here in Indiana.
Politicians better fix the economy and end the tech-visa programs before more bored and unemployed techies turn up more dirt on them.
You know what they say: An idle IT person will hack into the devil's workshop.
Table-ized A.I.
What kind of idea is that? Blowing up computers? He's joking...right? Its a violent and incredibly base thing to say. How do these people make it into Congress?
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
...then why doesn't someone hack into his computer and destroy his computer like he wants to do to so-called 'pirates'.
Ok just trollin'
I think 3 and 5 would be the right number.
MORTAR COMBAT!
Hatch is on the Senate Judiciary committee
Hatch is strongly in favor of extending the length covered by copyright holders.
Obviously he doesn't thing copyright laws apply to him...
Not to sound too much like a troll, but most of this stuff can be found on Drudge Report hours to days earlier.
Yep, that sure sounds like the kind of guy I want making decisions about IP and technology.
The problem is that he already has a ton of power and pull in Washington where seniority rules. He's chairman of the most esteemed committee in Washington, and has blessing from the Church.
One has nothing to do with the other. Bringing up religion is of little substance and shows some grudge you hold. In fact, the mormon religion has never endorsed any candidate unlike many other religions (look at the south).
Senority does rule, and despite being a nut job, he brings a lot of money and power to Utah. That is why a lot of nut jobs get elected over and over again, for example, Trent Lott and that decrepit shell of a man he praised.
-Eyston
Nevada btw, my senator is 'blessed' as you put it though
it's called the "captain of the ship" doctrine in legal terms. It dates back to english common law and the era where many were slave owners... a slave owner could be held liable for the actions of a slave that he owned.
It's what allows me to be sued if someone (including one of my nurses or another doctor treating their patient in the ER) does something inappropriate in my department. Even if it's not my patient, theoretically EVERY patient in the ER is my patient, since I'm the ranking doc in charge of the department.
It sucks, and it's vicarious liability, but it does happen (though some modern courts have started to rein this nonsense in)
Same thing with medicare fraud... if my billing company commits fraud (they bill in my name), guess who goes down? I do. The medicare and medicade regulations are extremely convoluted, and get changed very frequently... if my billing company doesn't keep track, and they bill wrong, they may get flagged as a potential fraud. The pressure to get successful prosecutions of fraudsters is VERY high, and agents go after doctors relentlessly... and the doctor takes the fall, even if someone else is doing their billing.
It's outrageous that you can be held to account for the actions of others, particularly if you don't understand their job, lack the expertise to oversee them, and don't directly control how they do business... but that's our legal system. It's not right, but it can and does happen.
So yes, I'd say if it's good enough for me, it's good enough for the good Senator Hatch.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
In fairness to Mr. Bennett, it has been reported that he has never gone on record as declaring that gambling is immoral. Thus, strictly speaking he is not a hypocrite.
Nevertheless, he doesn't come off looking very good over this, that's for sure.
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
Lets just notify the BSA, and I'm sure they and Senator Hatch can amicably (massive audit) settle this "oversight".
- NOPIRACY
http://www.bsa.org/usa/report/report.php
1-888
Lets see how Mr. Hatch likes his computers destroyed.
I used to believe that the Bad Karma Vortex epicenter used to run through 1 Microsoft Way in Redmond, but with SCO and Hatch trying to out do each other I think its shifting down to Orem....
No, you get insulted because you wear your 'victimized woman' card on your sleeve and throw it in everyone's face. Your signature is tantamount to begging for abuse.
Mensa is a logical organization, but you appear to fall too much towards the emotional side to qualify. Were I you, I'd ask for a re-test. Maybe get some victim's counselling before re-considering my membership.
BD Phone Home!
Shameless plug. Like you weren't expecting it.
In tomorrow's Utah paper:
"Wanted: Immediate opening for a Webmaster who can create menus without using @#*! JavaScript or shareware."
Table-ized A.I.
I think a webmaster just lost his job!
Well, I seem to recall they stopped this practice, since a judge somewhere determined that this was depriving the defendant of "due process."
So-- how could the use of computer-destroying technology be legally sanctioned? There is no due process. Sure, the technology could be used, but officially, the perpetrator would be subject to fines, legal damages, and/or jail time, just like any other virus-writing script-kiddie.
Orrin Hatch is really just advocating vigilanteism, which is an abandonment of the whole legal system. What's next? Should I start waving a pistol at everybody who cuts me off, or torching the car of that guy down the street who plays his stereo too loud?
Let's take it one step further. Let's have it so that we not only destroy the music pirate's computer, but we overload his power supply, cause a fire, and burn down his house, and hopefully all his neighbors' houses, too, since they probably were in on it as well...
They say the first thing to go is your penis. Well, it's either that or your brain. I forget which...
And your point is...?
If my daughter downloads songs on my machine, will Hatch NOT blow mine up?
It's his site; it's his responsibility.
"I might have made a tactical error in not going to a physician for 20 years." -- Warren Zevon
I'm a Republican of the pre-religious right wing school, and I'm going to donate as much dough as I can to Orin Hatches opposition. I encourage everyone to donate money to whoever runs against Orin Hatch. Look at it this way, Bush is going to win re-election in a landslide, and if we put a Dem into Hatch's slot, we restore some balance of power, get rid of a right winger so kooky that he sold out to hollywood, and maybe save the constitution.
This is my sig.
This time around constitutes an exception. Everybody makes stupid mistakes once in a while, and I hope Hatch manages to pull a course correction on this issue pretty soon.
No, this time does not constitute an exception. Orrin was also the sponsor of another misguided piece of legislation that maybe you've heard of, the DMCA.
Orrin has taken over 175K so far just this year from the TV/Movies/Music lobby
Orrin is one of the WORST congressmen this country has EVER had. Bought off like every other congressman but he apparently is not only paid off but stupid about the legislation that he introduces.
Now jensend, as a constituent I suggest that you get informed on these issues that your idiot congressman makes the rest of the country suffer for.
Dear Senator Hatch,
What is your opinion on the efficacy of using euthanasia to solve the current problem of overly zealous and senile senior senators from Utah.
Very Urgent. Please Reply,
Your Smoldering WebServer
-B
In Providence, its the only way to get out into traffic, by first pulling out into the mass median. Sometimes you see smokies parked there, looking for speeders.
They say the first thing to go is your penis. Well, it's either that or your brain. I forget which...
If Hatch had his way, how many innocent people would have their computers destroyed because their children, employees, friends, and neighbors decided to illegally download some MP3s onto their computer?
point out spelling or grammatical errors in other posts.
Inevitably, every time some one points one out they have one in their message.
I was making an implication, not an assertion of truth. Are you telling me that the Church supports a pro-choice, civil libertarian agenda? Please...
Although they don't give official support in a press release, doesn't mean that they don't have a pull in Utah politics.
You obviously don't understand the political context of this state, which has had a religious element from the very beginning. After all, Brigham Young was a first elected governor of Utah with close to Saddam-like 96% (or so) of the populace.
So religion has everything to do with it. Guess who's going to be picking our pro-life judges and anti-consumerist judges. Our friend Orrin. And the church has supported campaigns against gay-marriage in Vermont and Hawaii. So you can blow it out your own naiveté.
As soon as the church gives money to a cause outside of its dogma, we'll talk.
Ok Hatch has made a pretty out there comment, and he's something of a hypocrit, put that aside for a second.
Let's say that it was decided to use this countermesure to piracy. How would this be physically implemented? Would OEMs be instaling mini-bombs in our computers? I can tell you now that if a company can blow up a computer there will be someone else who will figure out how to a) prevent it and b) do it themselves. Imagine facing computer virus that actually _destroy_ you hardware.
This whole idea stinks of Hatch's lack of understanding of the technological world. It stinks of the entire senate's lack of understanding.
The fact of the matter is we need someone in congress (or more than one) that is on the same page we are with tech issues.
100% Crunchier
Where does SCO, Novell, Center 7 and the Canopy Group live and work and have their being? Utah!
The Canopy Group, a Utah firm with investments in dozens of companies owns the controlling interest in SCO. That's right, SCO.
Do you consider Hatch's proclamation coincidental to the Copyright issues Canopy has brought up against IBM and Linux as SCO's alter ego? This is a classic special interest lobby created to move public interest in a daring direction.
This senator has some interesting harmonics in his small world.
Historically, incumbents in the US Senate rarely lose an election, regardless of what they do.
A special investigator found evidence proving Senator Robert Packwood of Oregon in violation of campaign finance. The investigation yielded a scandal as Packwood's address book yielded names and address of his many mistresses.
Still, he resigned. No one voted him out.
The power base of a US Senator self perpetuates. During elections, they will be working on a major initiative or project. They will head a major committee. The voters will not vote them out. The state could be conservative and the Senator a liberal and he'll still win.
Senator Hatch has a self perpetuating power base and a very loyal constituency in a state where religion rules.
He's like the basketball player Karl Malone, he'll never retire.
Here's the danger: This guy has the ability to influence state, federal and local legislation.
And he is not demonstrated support for open source.
In our world, he's a butt-head. In the world of the uninformed, he's as right as right can be.
Utah politics is not more complacent or different than any other state.
It is however the power base of software firms and big, big dollars that are not our friends.
Pot here. You are black! I repeat: You are black!
Reporter: "Senator, did you know you have Javascript on your webserver?"
Hatch: "Really? I'll talk to my web monkey. He said he scans it for viruses every day. Must be new..."
They say the first thing to go is your penis. Well, it's either that or your brain. I forget which...
Yeah, that's right. If its a signal comming into your computer over the Internet, there's nothing that says you can't block the port it comes into, or create a packet filtering system that searches for suspicious packets containing instructions to send massive voltages through your computer.
If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. The same thing can be said for this crap that Hatch is proposing. The people who are perpetuating the sharing MP3s, videos, videogames, and software will not "learn their lesson" as Hatch suggested, but quite a few innocent downloaders will, possibly at the expense of little over a thousand dollars.
This is not a problem that can be solved by people whom have little understanding of the way the Internet works.
Of all the qualities I look for in a politician "blessing from the Church" isnt one of them and since the govt is not designed as a religious ogranization it has no relavance. However, in the context of Utah the point is well taken.
Oh my... That's hilarious (I thought you were kidding).
I'll bet his LDS constituents would love to know that link is on his website.
Wonder when that domain was bought and pr0n-ified...
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
According to this software piracy information PDF made by the BSA in paragraph 4, the US Senate is liable for this unlicensed software:
"Many businesses, both large and small, face serious legal risks because
of software piracy. Under the law, a company can be held liable
for its employeesâ(TM) actions. If an employee is installing unauthorized
software copies on company computers or acquiring illegal software
through the Internet, the company can be sued for copyright
infringement. This is true even if the companyâ(TM)s management was
unaware of the employeeâ(TM)s actions."
-Valen
Orrin is of course in the Senate and not the House. However the point of legislative job security is well taken. Reelection rates of incumbents in both bodies of Congress in recent years are as follows:
Year / House of Representatives / Senate
1998 / 98% / 90%
2000 / 98% / 79%
2002 / 98% / 85%
The more interesting statistic might be what proportion of these folks and their staffs have violated copyright laws. It is probably pretty close to the populace at large.
Cheech: ... And all the time, he was getting stopped and pulled over and asked for his I.D., man. Just everywhere he went he ran into too much recession, man.
Chong: No, man, you mean he ran into too much "repression", man.
Cheech: Ah, repression, recession, man, it's all the same thing, man.
"Santa Clause and His Old Lady"
R: That voice. Where have I heard that voice before? B: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
Milonic's Woolley said the senator's unlicensed use of his software was just "the tip of the iceberg." He said he knows of at least two other senators using unlicensed copies of his software, and many big companies.
Continental Airlines, for example, one of the largest airlines in the United States, uses Woolley's system throughout its Continental.com website. Woolley said the airline has not paid for the software. Worse, the copyright notices in the source code have been removed.
Can the author of the software use the DMCA to shut down the senator's and Continental's web sites? I heard that all it takes is a copyright infringement notice to the ISP, and the site can be shut down.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
If he had imediately shot his computer on hearing this, I'd have been impressed with his integrity. We will now probably see an exemption for Congress, as usual.
Really this is just an example of what we are seeing more and more again, is that IP is really only for big business, the right is simply not recognized for individuals, or smal l businesses. Hatch should do more than comply, he should set the example, and send the developer restitution... If anyone needs congressional help to enforce their IP its the small developers who simply cannot afford to sue, big lawyers == big overhead..., but
I guess that would upset the 'status quo'.
00. if you spit in the sky it will fall in your eye
01. a monkey never sees his own tail
11. never throw stones if you have glass windows
you said other stuff also, but i never paid attention
You need people like me so you can point your fuckin fingers and say, "That's the bad guy." So what that make you? Good?
The Wired article brought a few important points to mind.
Step 1) Massive audit. ...
Step 2)
Step 3) Profit!!!
-moitz-
Screw 'em...who cares what anyone thinks.
Am I the only one who read the title as "Senator Orrin Hatch on a Plate"?
It's a common wimpy ass fallback that "I can't do anything about it from here." That's a cop out and you know it.
If you were truly interested in doing something about it, you would make sure to call up his office. You would also make sure to email, write, phone anybody you personally know, and anybody you know who knows someone in his constituency and TELL THEM ABOUT IT!
Stop sitting on your ass whining about what you CAN'T do and actively participate ins what you CAN do.
</RANT>
The english language is in beta. It's evolving but has not yet reached a level of usability.
That seems like a crappy solution to a serious problem, to me. The problem is that it eliminates serious statesmen with career, insider politicians. We have term limits for the state legislature in California, and I don't think anyone can say that we've been better governed recently than in the past. What we need are things like open primaries (or the end of primaries altogether...why not have a general election and then a runoff, like in Freedonia, or wherever our delicious freedom fries come from?) and an end to gerrymandering.
Yes, he has been fairly peristent in his wrongheadedness about copyrights, and that dates back further than the DMCA. Yes, that wrongheadedness was rewarded by the lobbyists. That doesn't affect his record in other areas, and I would suggest that you refrain from insulting other people, myself included, just because they don't share your single-issue zealotry.
Petman,
Even if they mod me down as redundant you deserve a "well said".
Well said.
never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes
Sen. Hatch: I don't know what Javascript is, but you'd damn well better audit each and every bit of it.
Legal Team: We don't either, but we'll damn well do it.
Andy Woolley: You'd better, or you'll be in hot water.
Hatch reportedly said that. Ok, so what if destroying a pirate's computer doesn't do the trick? What if they get another computer and pirate more?
Maybe we should execute them... and if we do that, we should do it on national television to set an example.
Now that I have made some fun of the absurd overreaction to copyright violation, I ask this: how many congress people should be fired, or worse for knowingly doing things for personal gain, at the cost of the US people? That's theft of tax money. It's fraud, etc.
Point is, we all know the politicians are effectively paid by corporations to make certain decisions. We also know that we, the public, can't afford to compete with businesses to buy off politicians. I won't rant too much, but we've needed true campaign finance reform for ages. Corporations can't vote, so they shouldn't be able to manipulate government decisions. And we know many of them don't begin to pay the taxes they're theoretically supposed to pay. Yet I do pay my taxes, and when I screwed up one year, I ended up owing a bunch. I'm paying that off.
It comes down to this: our politicians are either ignorant about technology (this is almost universally true), or they are in bed with the corporations who are paying for their re-election campaigns. It's both, of course.
There are a few exceptions, but for the most part, to be able to compete during campaign time, you have to accept as much money from any source who will give it to you. That's the way it works.
I just don't know what more to say about this. It all seems futile. I do think justice, real justice, will be served one way or another. The people in positions of power who abuse those positions usually know what they are doing. They'll remember their deeds on their death beds, and perhaps they'll feel rotted. What a way to die...
.sigs are for post^Hers.
"Milonic DHTML Website Navigation Menu - Version 3.x Written by Andy Woolley - Copyright 2002 (c) Milonic Solutions Limited. All Rights Reserved. Please visit http://www.milonic.co.uk/menu or e-mail menu3@milonic.com for more information. The Free use of this menu is only available to Non-Profit, Educational & Personal web sites. Commercial and Corporate licenses are available for use on all other web sites & Intranets. All Copyright notices MUST remain in place at ALL times and, please keep us informed of your intentions to use the menu and send us your URL."
This is Senator Hatch's personal website, I don't think it's a commercial or corporate site. Granted, he's a senator and this site might be a way for people to donate money, but it's not technically a commercial site.
BTW, one may ask, why are Utah Mormons and so many other deeply religious groups so often anti-environmentalist? I think it's largely because their politicians have told them they are for the last 25 years. You'd think more people would realize that deep respect for all Creation and thoughtless pollution and destruction of the environment are not consistent with each other, but the association of environmentalism with the Democratic and Green parties and the association of those parties with moral "liberalism" seems to cloud people's judgement.
Those of us in the know realize that Disney concocted Hatch's zany stance and then crazy subversion of his own policy in order to promote their new movie
Pirates of the Great Salt Lake: Curse of the Ironic Pearl
ARRR MATEY! Everyone loves a pirate! Am I right?
I don't want to be here.
I mean, seriously, do you really think Senator Hatch knows anything about HTML or JavaScript? Do you really think he expected whoever he paid to do his web site would use someone else's code? Do you really think Hatch is the "criminal" here? Last I checked, intent is a huge part of criminality. Where there isn't any criminal intent, one can rarely be any worse than liable for minor damages. Then again, the RIAA is trying to tell us that copyright infringement is criminal, not civil...
We do have term limits, they are called elections. Use your vote to elect them out of office. Better yet, use your voice and get fellow members of the electorate to help you in this.
Term limits would hurt politicians that are good as well as those that are scum.
That is the beauty of a democratic system. We get the opportunity to throw out the crummy tyrants and try to elect good tyrants.
The senator must be one of those DICK-headed Americans who shoots off their mouths without thinking.
I mean... just imagine this scenario: a government employee in China (maybe Russia/France or whatever country) is downloading bootlegged music off the Internet. Granted that the guy might be violating U.S copyright law (though technically he is not, because he is not in U.S), but that doesn't give the U.S government the right to sabotage other countries' computers (especially government computers).
So do yourselves a favor and kick this joker out before he causes an international incident which might spark off another war.
Just for the record, I AM NOT AMERICAN.
Check out this link: http://www.hatchmusic.com/songs.html
See the second CD from the bottom of the page, "Many Different Roads"? I thought the cover art looked awfully familiar. Turns out I have a copy of that rose picture on my hard drive from years ago. It's all over the web, and can be found via Google image search.
I don't know the history of that particular image or who owns the copyright to it, but I can't help but wonder if the good senator bothered to find out...
-BK
Chemical Blog
We should make sure this Wired story gets in the hands of every tv,radio,and print newsroom in all of UTAH...
Some of them would run it just for the fun...haha.
-- Given enough time and money, Microsoft will eventualy invent UNIX.
cee-ripes, will anyone ever learn?
--- Journals are boring; Go to my web page instead
I just reloaded and the web site has been un-defaced. (This was around 12:30 AM EDT on Friday morning.)
I checked, and the first post I saw mentioning the pr0n/Hatch thing on Slashdot was around 10:09 PM. Or some such. Plus or minus time zones, that means it was defaced for around 2.5 hours.
I wonder who finally notices these things? Who on his staff looks at these things all night long to see if they change?
*practice swing w/ baseball bat*
A representative who is terminally worried about what to do after he is booted/expires is much more likey to pander to corporate interests and organise some buddy deals to look after their future interests.
Just the fact that you can say "the Church" and "Orrin Hatch" or "Utah" and everyone knows which religion you are talking about is interesting in the context of power. Blessings aside, he might not need to do anything other than claim to be a member of "the Church" to get the support of the majority of it's membership.
...until a senator can have a reasonable conversation with an average person and explain the entire context and impact of their proposed laws, why it is needed, and why it is better than the other alternatives, I claim that they are not informed enough and should not be allowed to decide if the proposed law is a good thing or not.
Since the good senator is so against piracy, I feel he shouldnâ(TM)t qualify for two warning. He should publicly destroy his web-servers to show he is not immune to the law. (It would be funny to see too.)
-EndBabble
The man's gotta point, sir. A Indianian or a Minnesotian or a Mainian isn't going to have any influence in Utah (regarding Senator elections). However, the senators working for our states... hmmm...
--- Journals are boring; Go to my web page instead
and has blessing from the Church.
:-)
Some other posters have claimed that this power is actually pretty trivial. Let me make this as abundantly clear as I possibly can.
WRONG.
I have witnessed personally that simply being Mormon gives you opportunities that one should clearly not have the right to. I recently saw every single hiring rule of the _corporation_ I work for, broken, to hire someone massively underqualified for a UNIX (not Linux) admin position. I had to show this guy how to use the 'ls' and 'cd' commands AFTER he was given this position. He also did not interview for this position. How can this happen you ask?
CEO of corporation needs blessing of several committees that Hatch sits on, hence, a huge percentage of uppers in this company, just magically happen to be mormon, including the VP 3 levels above the person in question, who bypassed all of the HR rules and regulations, elected not to make underqualifed person submit to a standard interview, and gave them the job.
Yes, it's discrimiation. there are labor laws against this. And there is a huge law on the books, that prevents Orrin Hatch from playing religious favorites legally. Little thing called the the First Amendment.
To anyone who lives in UT, vote this small minded bastard out of office, NOW. Get his paid-off ass back into the 'Temple' where it belongs. Preachers have no business in politics.
Yes, I'm posting this anonymously for obvious reason, I actually have excellent Karma, go figure.
Interested to know the statistics for all the people replying who are using pirated software.
90% of the people on slashdot have zero credibility when it comes to this. Just like all the whiners about GPL violations that pirate and steal commercial software.
Thats the real Pot calling the Kettle Black situation.
I doubt this guy wrote his own website. Should you not be attacking the developer...
Yes more space, to the tune of ONE Hundred Million Bytes, muahhahahahahahaha </Dr. Evil>
Two words: Goverment employees
And as soon as such a law went into effect and the music industry started implementing their kill devices, you'd start seeing a wonderful new wave of virii that would flag themselves as 'copyrighted material' while suppressing the warnings you're supposed to receive.
In response to your anti-environmentalist question and liberalism question I personally believe that most environmentalists are not genuine. We (I am a Mormon) do not believe in destroying the earth, we believe that we (human race) have a stewardship of this earth and that we are here to take care of it AND to use it. People are God's greatest creation and our interests should not be below the interests of other animals or plants, although we should do our best to wisely use the land and water, plants and animal that our Creator gave to us. I also know that many of you do not share my view and that's OK.
Personally I am against the liberal line of thinking mostly because it removes my free-will to act as I wish with regards to my money. I am told that if I want to decrease my tax burden I am stealing money away from the poor. I freely give money to charities and the poor of my own choosing above and beyond my already outrageous taxes, we as a nation do not need to have a forced Robin Hood situation where money is taken from the richer and given to those with less. Those with less need to be given an incentive to work and earn more. our Declaration of Independence states that We were all created equal - it doesn't mean everyone's outcomes will be equal. I believe that most liberal followers (not the politicians) are good, honest people with noble ideas of how things should be. The only problem with their notions is that as long as the government is controlling and deciding who is rich and who is poor we all are beholden to that government. it is wrong - look at the former Soviet Union, China, Cuba. Look at all the people from Mexico and Latin America clammering to come to this still-great nation - they don't come here because of welfare, social security, or food stamps... they come here for an opportunity to increase their stations in life which they likely will not get in their countries of origin. I don't hold a grudge against anyone trying to get here - I wish they'd do it legally, though - I've been to Mexico and, frankly, it sucks by my standards. In a tourist trap like Cabo San Lucas you'd think that the city would be a bit more kept-up, but no, there was vomit on sidewalks, barbed wire fences laying in the road and on the sidewalks... everything was in disrepair...
anyway before I get anymore long-winded I think my point was that I agree with helping the poor and downtrodden, etc. but it should be on my own and not a mandatory tax of my hard-earned money.
good night, I'm tired.
It's not illegal to fuck not-your-wife.
It is illegal to lie about fucking not-your-wife.
It's not very complicated.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Oh yeah, term limits, that'll fix it. /sarcasm
The problem is all the crap we collectively call 'the (one party posing as) two party system.' The winner take all electoral system. The very high bar third parties have to meet to get on the ballot, while the state-approved parties get it automatically. The 'campaign finance' laws that make sure that third parties can't raise their issues and campaigns into the public eye effectively, while the big media corporations are free to spend all they want effectively campaigning for the incumbents.
Term limits won't do a thing about any of this. A win in the current Supreme Court case could help though. Our lawsuit challenging the federal campaign finance laws is moving to the Supreme Court
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
To quote a well-known Utah Senator featured in an earlier story, "There's no excuse for violating copyright laws."
Now, granted, it was obviously the webmaster who made this mistake(?) and not Senator Hatch himself, for the good Senator really has little knowledge of this new-fangled technology. But remember that Senator Hatch's proposal wasn't to target webmasters or even p2p users. He was targeting the computers themselves for destruction.
Let's look at the computer a bit more closely. There's the fact that the computer was hosting his website and performing a service for him, and therefore he should be at least somewhat responsible.
There's also the point that the web server involved was (most probably) his computer. So the server should have one strike against it already. A couple more and the RIAA and/or whoever owns the code get to push the big red button. This is regardless of whether Hatch (vs. someone else) committed the violation or not.
BTW, has anyone sent the first "warning" to the webmaster yet?
Because his parents named him "Orrin".
If you were named Orrin, wouldn't you be a little crazy too?
Thought so!
Location: Mt. Xinu
Fine, but that, IMO, is directly analogous to the idea of destroying a computer because it has been used for piracy. Consider the modern computing environment where multiple users may (and do) use one machine for a variety of purposes. Tell me, should all users of the machine suffer if one of them downloads music illegally? If all users on that one machine may be legally targetted because of the actions of one user on the same machine (which is basically Hatch's position) then surely he should be held accountable for someone else's work on his Web site. I mean, it's his site, not mine, not yours and certainly not his Webmaster's.
This only goes to show further how out-of-touch and un-informed Hatch really is about computers. He should be making no laws governing their usage until he can build his own fucking web site.
--Rick "If it isn't broken, take it apart and find out why."
That country was build up on steal. They massacred they natives to get their lands. 100 years later they feel the right to massacre into submission other nations that do the same thing.
They didn't recognise the rights. I remeber reading a note about Tolkien's Lord of the Rings (long before the movies) and there was written how mr. Tolkien didn't receive a penny from the American editors. And the stolen editions have lots of mistakes as well. Now, they are the ones that shout for copyrights. After all the big shots in the music industry are paying taxes in the US. So this is enough for a holy war.
And look who's fighting for that! Who is getting robbed? The ridiculous rock band of oldies Metallica. Spears - a studio creation. Madonna who is too old to whore on the scene. Some years ago I was reading an interview with one guy from Tangerine Dream. Now, those guys are creative. I say tastes can't be commented. But while Spears is only the base for a digitally enhanced voice with no contribution whatsoever those guys from TD do create. They compose and produce their own records. Anyway, the guy was asked what about those who immitate you? The answer was 'people will recognise our music' and something like 'this means we're popular'. And for how about those who pirate your records? he answered that they don't have time for that as they are working for a new project.
Also, he seems to comply with the terms of the license in the source code of the page. Moreover, any asshole that spends a few hours writing JavaScript code and enforcing a half-baked license to ruin someone's political career (for publicities' sake probably) should get a swift kick in the ass.
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Milonic DHTML Website Navigation Menu - Version 3.x
Written by Andy Woolley - Copyright 2002 (c) Milonic Solutions Limited. All Rights Reserved.
Please visit http://www.milonic.co.uk/menu or e-mail menu3@milonic.com for more information.
The Free use of this menu is only available to Non-Profit, Educational & Personal web sites.
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I just got done writing him a letter and submitting it through his site.
Here it is:
Dear Sir,
Having read your recent proposition that copyright holders be able to "destroy" the computers of those who download their works without permission I am frankly appalled. I understand that as a copyright holder yourself this might be a hot topic for you but please do not let your emotions overcome common sense.
As a profesional Systems Administrator, I understand the problem of unlicenced downloading. It is a plauge on the bandwith of the systems I administer. However, your proposed solution is one of the worst I have ever heard suggested. Copyright does not take precedence over private property laws. Second this would cause untold financial damage to buisnesses, educational institutions, and government agencies who's machiens were used by employees to download music. In the case of medical, or military computers it could even cause loss of life.
Since your website was recently discovered to be running unlicenced software this campaign of yours is rather hypocritical.
I strongly suggest that you drop this idea immediatly as unrealistic. I suggest instead that you pursue reducing the length of copyrights and/or making it much easier for material to go into the public domain. This would allow for a much greater amount of material to be LEGALLY downloaded. People prefer to do the right and honest thing, as well as avoid possible crimes and their consequences. If they have more legal options for downloads many will choose the legal choice rather than the immoral one - thus allowing artists seeking to make a just profit from their recent works, while fulfilling the original intent of copyright - to provide a limited short term monopoly on creative works as an incentive for more material to be released and the public domain be nurtured.
Respectfully,
-name ommited from slashdot-
LOL. You're proving my point. Perhaps you should read more history, you may surprise your assumptions over the governance of Mr. Young.
My point is simply that you cannot separate cleanly religion and politics in Utah. They coexist.
Just to fill you in, though, Young had a kind of secret police that kept people in line, and assassinated people who were out of step. Dissent really wasn't an option.
It's an interesting read, and Arthur Conan Doyle wrote about as well it in his novel "The Valley of Fear."
This must have been a hack - it's gone now...
before writing up that article?!
.. free of charge." Now how, exactly, does this translate to "piracy?!"
Quoted from the Hatch site's source:
"Please feel free to use this code on your own website free of charge.
You can also distribute and modify this source code as long as this
Copyright notice remains intact and that you send me notice that you
intend to use this code on your website. "
Note the "free to use this code
Idiots...
+++++++
"Look, dear, it's a crazy hairy scary man!"
Booyah, you hypocritical dickhead! You, Senator Hatch, embody NONE of the ideals and positions that the newer republican party claims to. You are no different, a nasty old whore for large industries, giving robber barons a separate bill of rights from the common man.
I would join the Democrats except for the obvious fact that they whore to the trial lawyers, whom I find only a tiny smidgeon more despicable than the media conglomerates.
It's a good thing there are still some good men in both parties. In the future I plan to be more careful with my vote, and to choose a man on his merit and not party affiliation. It's a pity that most senators are such asshats. It really is.
I sent Senator Hatch a letter- lets see if he responds. My adopted congresswoman responds personally- she must be new.
Hatch, a Pirate?
Of course not. He's a politician.
Pirates work for a living.
That's funny, but I would hardly think the senator and his website qualify for nonprofit use... I mean, he's probably turning in quite a profit from the RIAA and such, right?
This time, you made the stupid mistake.
Hatch got $175K from the entertainment industry. Do you think he accepted it by accident?
Hatch's remark was NOT a mistake.
Statements like that are made in the hope that the consumer electronics industry and the high-tech community can be crudely blackmailed by threat of insane government action into doing what we are told. That is part of what the *AA organizations are buying from him.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Just to fill you in, though, Young had a kind of secret police that kept people in line, and assassinated people who were out of step. Dissent really wasn't an option.
Cite? From a reputable source, please. Novels don't count.
My ancestors, who had personal dealings with him, recorded many public disagreements with him and his policies. Dissent most certainly was an option. For that matter, Brigham Young's numerous disagreements and conflicts with his numerous wives are legenday; and histoy shows that although he could be irritable, he was a kind man. Dissent, open or not, was less common than you would expect in a "normal" society, but Utah in the mid 19th century was hardly normal, it was an unabashed theocracy, and populated by people who'd placed their lives in the hands of the Church and its leaders.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
CEO of corporation needs blessing of several committees that Hatch sits on, hence, a huge percentage of uppers in this company, just magically happen to be mormon, including the VP 3 levels above the person in question, who bypassed all of the HR rules and regulations, elected not to make underqualifed person submit to a standard interview, and gave them the job.
Sounds to me like there was more than religious affiliation involved here. Somebody's nephew or something? If the only issue had been that they had to have a Mormon, well, there are plenty of highly competent Unix admins who are also members of the Church.
Occam's razor would suggest that religion had little to do with this particular travesty.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
I'm also from Utah, an ardent Democrat, and there's no chance in hell Hatch will be kicked out of office.
Maybe, maybe not. He's being seriously blasted right now, on all of the local radio shows, in all of the papers, and there's been a surprising (to me) amount of word-of-mouth about it as well. My Mom mentioned to me that she heard about it on the local News/Weather/Traffic radio station's movie show, and not a *single* caller (or the host) had anything good to say. This is the largest "drive time" radio station in the state, by far.
Hatch has a *lot* of supporters in the state, but many are wondering if he's going senile. I mean, even if he believes it, how could any rational politician bring himself to say it out loud, repeatedly? You know it's going to make people mad; even the companies who stand to gain the most from a strong stance against copyright infringement on-line are going to distance themselves from discussion of "destroying" computers.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Well, here's a start:
Secret Police
And here's a longer explanation:
Direct quotes on "blood atonement"
I'm sure there's more. I guess your ancestors' dissent was negligible.
it's just below the link to "Beaver Mountain"
heh heh heh heh
$ strings FTP.EXE | grep Copyright
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California.
This is definitely a commercial use, so he should pay for the license. OTOH, it is just some stupid Brit who doesn't have a vote for any senator in the US, so his copyright isn't important, is it?
See my journal, I write things there
Or did I miss that informative story about the Sonny Bono Copyright Extention Act on network television?
or in the newspaper?
or at my office water cooler discussion?
Out of people I know who don't get their news online,
I have met absolutly zero people informed about that issue, or this issue, or the DMCA. To name a few.
I've asked many musicians about it too.
of the ones I've asked, I'd say the majority is totally oblivious.
Somewhere a media industry executive places his fingertips together and mutters: "Excellent"
Hatch was trying to play "good cop" today against his "bad cop" role yesterday. He's now telling us "We won't destroy your computers if you only do what my masters at the *AA organizations tell you."
This is crude blackmail and deserves all the negative publicity, fair or unfair that can be used to embarass him.
Of course, what's really needed here is a high-tech vendor community willing to stand up to an entertainment industry 1/10 it's size and say:
"We can outspend what you're paying for politicians by a factor of 10 out of petty cash until hell freezes over. Our lobbyists start today. The ads attacking any of your polticians that stay bought by you start running in 10 days.
Rip, mix and burn is going to be the law of the land and there isn't a damned thing you can do about it except hope we let you keep your golden parachutes when we buy your company at 5 cents on the dollar next year."
Of course, if a real high-tech community PAC with $1M or so of startup funding had been put together by last year, we wouldn't need to be hoping the high-tech vendors finally grow a backbone, our people would instead be talking to Congress about rolling back the DMCA.
Of course, this would require the high-tech community to give uo our perverse fascination with political voluntarism and our collective demand that any money given to activism must also be tax-deductible, and for those of us who managed to make a fortune during the dot.com boom and kept it to be willing to part with $1M startup funding to make it work.
In other words, it means that some of us would have to be willing to do more than whine on slashdot. Worse, some of us would have to put in some real money in something that isn't going to bring in megaprofits in 5 years, but might make it possible for all of us to work on advanced technology in the Western World in 5 years.
You know and I know that that's not happening, either.
At this point, I think our best hope is that the *AA organizations get what they ask for. What happens if they fry 1,000,000 computers in the course of the most interesting hour of Net time since it got started? How many will be badly secured VIP home computers?
They fry the wrong 1,000 computers and "immunity" or not, the major label CEOs can't run far enough, fast enough, of long enough to escape the consequences.
For instance, what if a dozen Fortune 50 CEOs have to use their cell phones to call their lawyers from home because their computers and their e-mail isn't working only find out that the RIAA and the label CEOs and the black hats immune to lawsuits because Congress made them that way? How do you punish a billion dollar company if you run a $100B company? What if you want to punish some Congresscritters?
Be assured that they'll think of something.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Read the article again. It clearly states that the source of the website was changed after the word got out that he was using the software illegally. Whoever designed the website was supposed to inform Milonic of its existance and according to Milonic they were never informed, nor was any any mention of a valid licence visible in the source of Senator Hatch's website. Therefore it was in infringement of the licence.
I've dealt with him !
1-800-P I R A C Y... You've got a friend @ the BSA !
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
To take it a step farther, what we really need is a 24/7 âoeGovCamâ to be permanently mounted on every elected official so we can tune in and see what the hell they are up to.
Itâ(TM)s a network show thatâ(TM)s guaranteed to make The Sopranos dull and drab to be sure. And then some brave media company can put together a website where there is a Survivor-like online game and the losing politicians are exploded out of office.
Starting with Orrin Hatch, of course. Live by remote detonation, die by remote detonation.
Surely you don't think I downloaded those MP3s myself. I don't even know what MP3s are for.
Alternatively:
Sure, if I knew that something was illegial, and I still didn't stop doing it, then I would be at fault, but you can't proove of that.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
"all that shareware you registered in under 30 days"
Shareware is a form of degenerative IP protection that will lead the unsuspecting subject to use more and more free for use software, leading him in the dangerous path of Free Software, or even (God Prevents !) Copyleft, GPLed so called software !!!
The only way for us to protect America is to protect the poor Lusers and make it so that it is almost impossible for those Shareware to be found anywhere. We owe those poor souls the Joy and Happiness of well made EULA, such as already comfort all good users.
Your friend in the *AA.
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
that you point at someone, you have three fingers pointing right back at you.
Senator Orrin 'eye-patch' Hatch shouldn't play this holier than thou game.
There's another quote, 'hoisted over their own petard' or something like that..
Will sys-admin for food
I don't usually complain about stories getting rejected, but I submitted this story more than 24 hours ago, when Hatch's site still hadn't been updated. I had heard about it on instapundit which had linked to the same blog that wired sites in its article: Laurence Simon's Amish Tech Support. I wonder why Slashdot waited until this story hit the mainsteam (wired) before covering it. I love slashdot, but I wish that the editors would be more willing to post stories that are breaking in the blogosphere, and not waiting until the mainstream press gets a hold of them until highlighting the story. :-(
OH one rule for you none for me oh one rule for you none for me thats the way the world should be (continue until you feel sick)
Saying Apple is better than MS is like saying Botulism is better than rabies.
After 911, it seems politicians feel more comfortable .. sidestepping .. such principles if they feel the offense is grave enough.
Stop the brainwash
But you also have no right to use the software unless you agree to the license. You aren't paying for the software itself, you're paying for a license to use the software.
If you don't pay, you've seffectively tolen the license.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Didnt they destroy his car in the triple x mowe. hm i wonder how his pc wood look after it been droped from a brige.
This is a copy of the email I sent to Hatch:
Subject: Intellectual property
US Citizen [yes] Constituent [No]
Mr. Hatch, I respect your current attempts to update your license on your menu. Intent to comply is very indicative of desire. I, too, try to follow every IP law that you guys write for us. The burden is heavy.
However, I would like to point out a bit of philosophy about IP law that has direct effects on the US economy.
I think you should reconsider your position, based on the position of right and wrong.
When you read this, think about natural rights vs. granted rights, and natural law vs. granted law.
(1) Whenever a government violates natural law, it hurts the efficiency of the law, it hurts the economy, and it hurts the government, moving the country toward a state of anarchy. Natural law are those laws that follow from our nature. Sometimes, we do write granted law: a law that is not natural, a law that violates property, or freedom of thought [religion], or the right to defend oneself [2nd Amendment]. The reason we do this is that life without charity and only according to natural law is hard. Yet with all the damage that unnatural law does, it should only be written with great trepidation.
Congress, by the way, is not real good at this one. Look at the size of our law libraries if you doubt me.
Think about my statement: Every unnatural law hurts the economy more than it helps. This is because it hinders economic production. Real wealth depends on production, not on wealth transfer. It is also because granted law makes the economic climate unsure: you don't know if the proceeds of your investment will come back to you or be transferred to another, so you are more hesitant to invest.
(2) Intellectual property is not natural law. The right to work is natural law [that is, to labor to the best of your abilities to better your condition]. Natural law is not to say what a man can do and cannot do to better his condition. Or another way: If I have knowledge, it is natural for me to use it.
(3) Intellectual property is a monopoly. There are two kinds of monopoly: the monopoly of being the only one able to do a job, which is a natural monopoly, and a granted monopoly, which is an unnatural monopoly. The US Constition authorizes some kinds of intellectual property, in an effort to reduce the former monopoly -- but current law increases the latter monopoly much more.
I would argue that it is usually better to allow natural monopolies -- but the fact remains that our Constitution allows otherwise, and I accept that.
Yet the Constitution does not stipulate a set time -- it allows the government to set an undefined limited term of monopoly.
Mr. Hatch, I would like you to consider that monopolies of every kind: copyrights, patents, and any other kind appropriate, be shortened, not lengthened. Already we begin to see the damage done by our IP law, and it is driving real business away, and encouraging investment in "patent firms", which do no real development or manufacturing, but consist only of lawyers who patent, wait for another firm to develop something, and sue.
It is destroying the fastest-growing segments of our information infrastructure as well, such as the Open Source Software that NASA uses.
Already it is encouraging companies to require employees to sign horrible agreements to sign away all rights to all inventions, and thus stifling innovation.
But I don't ask you to consider just the economic effects. Please consider the *philosophy* behind my claims, and see if that is true. If it is, only then consider the economic effects.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
But if his explode-a-comp(tm) gets through u could use it against your enemies. No doubt geeks will find a way to stop it but you could send through an mp3 or some such to someone you don't like and Kablamo good bye their comp. Evil I know.
-- Karma Karma Karma Karma, Karma Chameleon - Boy George
Sorry we can call him a pirate.
By the proposals he's making there is no due process to determine guilt or innocence, you just make the accusation then act.
I think destruction/confiscation of tools used in the commission of a crime is fine, they do this all the time. What I think is wrong is destroying/confiscating without having to prove guilt.
Pete C
Alison
"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." - Albert Einstein
I don't know what the legal situation is eactly in the US, but in the UK anyone who creates a work that can be copyrighted, automatically gets the copyright assigned to them (i.e. they do not need to write (c) 2003 Joe Blow or register their work anywhere etc.). I imagine that much the same is true in the US.
So, in order for the antihacking laws to be properly circumvented, thus allowing a copyright holder to blow up the computer of anyone breaching their copyright, then everyone who holds a copyright must be made exempt from those antihacking laws.
This will be anyone who has written a story, painted a picture, put up a website, etc. -- i.e. pretty much every US citizen. So, the law would allow anyone to distroy anyone else's computer.
Unless of course, by "compyright holder", what is really meant is "the music and film industries".
This really is a stupid law.
"The noble art of losing face will one day save the human race"---Hans Blix
I RTFA'ed and clicked the link to the site in question using my browser of choice, Opera 7.10. The row of links along the top was all bunched up, with all the text overlapping itself.
I then opened up the site in MSIE 6.0 and the site appeared "properly". Clearly, the code in question isn't 100 percent browser-independent. (I'm guessing that it works fine with Mozilla, or else someone else would have mentioned it already in another post.)
Is it asking too much for professional web designers (such as the one who designed the site in question) to check their code on more than one non-MS platforms?
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
3 Senate terms = 18 years
9 terms in the House of Reps = 18 years
Right, but the terms for the House are already a third as long as those in the Senate by design.
No reason to give them the same term limit.
Give me a break. Yes, suggesting that some type of system-wide pirate destruction program should be implemented was technologically unsavvy on Hatch's part, but RTFA.
A web development company that put the site up for him was responsible for not registering the software and attributing it properly, however, they did fall under the "free for non-profit use" clause, so no one was out hard money. When the attribution problem was pointed out (or maybe before, the article isn't specific on this point), they endeavored to remedy the situation.
There is a world of difference between an accidental incident like this committed by someone probably not even directly hired by Hatch and the willful and continual downloading, replication, and distribution of copyrighted materials.
I'm sure, however, that most of the Kazaa'ing losers reading the article will ignore that obvious distinction and think once again that their whole moral outlook is justified.
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
This might become a loophole on legally hacking someone else's computer.
A potential new law will again be in contrast to the Computer Misuse Act 1990, the Data protection act, to name a few.
It is almost fun to see the Goverment to try to fight against hacking by imposing laws, such as Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act,
and similar attempts like the Cypercrime Treaty 2001 ( Which basically gives the right to Goverment and Law enformcement agencies to intercept and track down individuals.
Whatever they do they must realize that this is not the way to go ! Technology will always be one step ahead from the Law.
Milonic Solutions' JavaScript code used on Hatch's website costs $900 for a site-wide license. It is free for personal or nonprofit use, which the senator likely qualifies for.
I dought it. Since when is a senator a volunteer postition? Normally in licenses that I've seen when they want to include or exclude the goverment in something they specificly say "governments". Being that this doesn't state that they are included would make me think they are not included.
"Any sentator that proposes a moronic law, will be shot on sight. That is the only way to teach them to stop wasting taxpayers money and exposing their sheer stupidity at the same time".
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, The hands acqui
No, no, no. You still don't get it! The senator is not a liar--his contractor is!
Call (206) 338-5780 COLLECT for information about a genuine BA, BS, MA, MS, MBA, or Ph.D.
Well he has also supported the extremely immoral assert forfeiture laws. The guy is a plague on the senate. He may be the voice of moderation for Utah, but most people in Utah are crazy mormons so you don't really have to do much to look moderate when compared to the rest of the yokels.
Not to defend Orrin Hatch in any way, But let's assume that that was simply a mistake in the administration of his website. Let's also say that he qualified for a free version of the code, and it really didn't hurt the original author of the code. Now, should that allow the author to knock his webserver down for a while. If those servers host other sites, e.g. they're part of a large hosting network or something, who's responsible for those who may have lost money because of a trivial mistake on somebody else's part?
However, in my opinion, I think that Hatch should fork over the $900 (and then some) to pay for that software. I would not consider his website personal or nonprofit considering that he uses it to promote his own political career.
--
Adobe's anti-counterfeiting softw
"The House of Represenatives has a re-election rate of some 96%.
God we need term limits!"
Thank God the GOP is pushing for them.... oh, what's that?
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
In the days following Sept 11th, Congress could have passed a bill stating that [Arabs] be summarily executed by the military", and I doubt anyone would have raised a finger or a care.
What?!? Do you honestly believe that? Truly? I mean, come on, that's absurd. If you sincerely believe that your elected representatives are that incredibly stupid, and that your fellow citizens are so amazingly ignorant as to not even question legalizing genocide, then why are you still there? I mean, sure, people get emotional and reactionary in the wake of catastrophes of such magnitude, but do you honestly believe that a majority of your elected elite would be so swept up in emotional turmoil as to completely lose their sense of such fundamental values? I mean, come on, surely you realize what a gross exaggeration this is.
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
$900? For a fucking Javascript menu? Arrrr.
My exception safety is -fno-exceptions.
It looks like the link was removed from his site.
At least, I couldn't find it.
Start emailing the media, cnn, msnbc, newspapers, radio, etc.
Lets get as much attention to this as we can!
Orrin has taken over 175K so far just this year from the TV/Movies/Music lobby
Orrin is one of the WORST congressmen this country has EVER had. Bought off like every other congressman but he apparently is not only paid off but stupid about the legislation that he introduces.
Uhm, for a guy who claims to know so much about Orrin Hatch's "secrets," why do you keep calling him a "Congressman?"
He's a Senator, genius. Guess they forgot to mention that on the "Drudge Report," or "Open Secrets," or whatever tabloid is is that you consult for your source of ready-made, controversial opinions.
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
98% of House incumbents get reelected. He could suggest a bill in favor of allowing Mickey Mouse to come round and assrape your kids (physically rather than just financially), and it wouldn't matter, because as far as Joe America is concerned, it's better the devil you know from his reelection compaign than the devil you don't.
Hatch will keep in his seat until they scrape his festering corpse out of it. Or perhaps a bit longer, depending on whether his corpse's reelection campaign has already been funded by the *AA.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
And here is another of Senator Hatch's WWW sins from the days of meta-tag search engine stuffing.
Arnt there accesabilty requirements for government websites anyway? damn its only a java script, reading the front page i thought "wow too good to be true! hes hosting a warez site!" everytime i read about US senators my respect for them goes down that bit more. soon there wont be any respect left.
Actually thats wrong, im on negative respect for them, so they need to do some positive things in order for me (or most people) to have even "no" respect for them!
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
So, as soon as you find out that someone presumably cannot write "worth a damn," you instantly feel obligated to insult her? Do you think it is OK to call a woman "b*tch," "c*nt," or "p*ssy," just because you think she cannot write as well as you think you can? How very mature of yours. I hope it is a rewarding hobby indeed. You should be certainly proud of yourself.
Karma: Positive (probably because of superiour intellect)
Someone should have a little chat with Mr. Orin. Does he believe that ALL computers should be nuked if they contain illegal copyrighted material?
If so, then what about those computers in the government which may contain terabytes of important information, and maybe one single illegal file? Does that one single file give the copyright owner the right to destroy all that information?
What would stop the next senator (extremist or just looking for the political spotlight) from taking that next step?
Here's a scenario, Someone at, say the FBI has access to their mainframe, and while doing their job they like to listen to music, so they have Mp3s on their PC. Well one day they are told they are getting a new PC, and happily transfer all their personal data onto the mainframe so it can be copied to their new PC later.
Say they like to listen to Metalica, and one of the files they had was an old file originally illegally traded through Napster or Kazaa or such.
Does Metalica now have the right to destroy the FBI mainframe, and doing so destroy any data contained therein about criminals and terrorists?
Doing so would directly jeopardize the safety of millions upon millions of people.
What about software that was created using illegally gained SDKs? Should that software be destroyed as well?
Sorry Jimmy, I know your in middle of your kidney dialysis, but the firmware for this machine was written using an illegal download of a copyrighted compiler. Oh and by the way, your dad's pacemaker? the firmware for that was written using the Notepad of an illegally pirated copy of Microsoft Windows 3.1. It's going to have to be nuked.
You can say good bye to your dad now. Yep bye bye....bye bye!
You mom? oh she's on a flight here...
oh shit...the navigational software on that plane...
I think Orin should be enlightened to the ramifications of opening this Pandora's box.
What would then stop a terrorist from alleging that the vital computers he fried contained his copyrighted material?
This contains all the items of interest, including the license comments.
Helevius
You remind me a kid, who laughed at me in primary school, because I wore glasses. "But I don't laugh because you wear glasses! I laugh because you have four eyes and look ugly and you are stupid and I don't like you and nobody likes you and everybody likes me!" You both seem to present equally intelligent arguments.
I think you should definitely calm down. Prozac might help you. It always works for me.
Karma: Positive (probably because of superiour intellect)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Whatchew talkin' bout, Willis? Butte is in Montana...
I think he meant butt pirate.
Who gets to decide if it was willful and obvious?
Sen Hatch is proposing the copyright holder, and no legal restraint on their action.
Many have proposed the copyright holder be given these powers, and only demonstrate they thought there was infringement.
Here we have clear proof of willful infringement.
By the logic the copyright enforcers are proposing that is enough to destroy his computer.
Yes we realize he isn't directly responsible, and knowledgable about what he did wrong. But the same can be said for some of the people trading files, or ripping CD's.
BTW in Canada you can copy a musical recording for personal use.
"Insightful"??? WTF??? What kind of idiot moderators mod'd this up to "Insightful"? The poster doesn't even know that SENATOR Orrin Hatch is in the . . . SENATE, making any comment about the House of Representatives pretty frelling irrelevant.
"The bigger the lie, the more they believe." - Det. Bunk
Hey, I'm on your side--I was employing sarcasm! :)
Call (206) 338-5780 COLLECT for information about a genuine BA, BS, MA, MS, MBA, or Ph.D.
I'm a Republican and a conservative and I think he sucks moose dick.
Hopefully you can find some photographic evidence of this and get it published. That might help get him out of office and into prison where he belongs.
Well right off the bat, forget Fox. Fox is the state-run news source. They wouldn't say a word against a conservative politician for any reason. To Fox, a conservative politician simply cannot do wrong, or if they do wrong, it is ok if the end is "good" (ie, the end justifies the means bullcrap of the current D.C. Regime).
As for the others, they have to smell ratings in it to report it. If it leads to any negative letters (or MIGHT lead to negative letters) then they wont report it. Ratings, you know. $$$ you know.
This is a job for NPR and the BBC, the only independent and gutsy news orgs left, so it seems.
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
Hello pot, it's the kettle calling.
Where is the personal responsibility that the congress is always talking about. Why is it the responsibility of a raped women to carry the resulting child, but not the responsibility of a senator to take responsibility for the mistakes of the people that do his work. Why is it ok to deny a child $80 a week for food, but the senator can just claim 'i have no control over my staff' and walk away free.
I mean really. Honor is not such a hard thing. For instance, do not claim that the malfeasance in a company that is yours, a company that pays you millions of dollars to manage, was not your responsibility. If you were not aware of the impropriety, then at least admit negligence.
In this case, if you are a elected official, say a president, do not act like a coward and hide behind plausible deniability and claim you were unaware of that your staff was trading drugs. If you were indeed unaware, at least have the honor to admit incompetence and negligence.
This is why our kids come to school without proper materials. They see top government and corporate officials never taking responsibility, or held to account, for anything of a significant nature, so why should they?
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
To paraphrase Dave Barry (he was referring to tax law, but I think it's still rather applicable): "We should take all the members of Congress, place them on a tropical island somewhere with an average guy named Bob. Every day, the group explains a section of Tax code to Bob, and if he understands it & thinks it's useful, then they get to eat." (Continuation of quote (irrelevant): "Or not, but that's not important. What is, is that you never let them back off the island...")
Replace tax code with proposed law, and I think we might be onto somtething here. Have them explain all aspects of proposed laws to a (few) average guy(s), and if they like it, great. If not, rework it. I think this might help a little with the way our laws recently have appeared to be corporate-centric, since it would allow for common review of the laws.
Of course, the problem with that is, how does "average Joe" know the senator is telling the truth? So, unless you hook the Senator up to a polygraph machine... but I think that may be a bit excessive.
I am dyslexia of borg - your ass will be laminated.
Maybe you have never heard of "Porter Rockwell". He was the Enforcer for Young. You did not want to get on his bad side.
I grew up in the Fulda Gap, where did you?
If people would check Milonic's website before blabbering on slashdot, they will notice that Hatch has resolved this issue:
"We have received many emails regarding the implementation of our software and Milonic are pleased to announce that there are no longer any licensing issues with reference to the above [Orin Hatch] website..."
Communism is an economic system and an alternative to capitalism. It is not an alternative to democracy. So your post, in addition to being a troll, makes no sense.
To steal a line, it's not a term paper, use google like the rest of us.
Try "Porter Rockwll"
I grew up in the Fulda Gap, where did you?
I am a mormon as well (active and in good standing, planning on going on a mission soon) - and a supporter of SUWA. Using the resources we've been given doesn't imply using them thoughtlessly- and while there are plenty of nuts and whackos in the broader environmentalist movement, most of the goals sought for by environmentalists are perfectly sincere and reasonable and fully compatible with wise human use of the earth. On the Utah wilderness issue, for instance, the vast majority of all proposed wilderness is entirely unsuited for any development, and there's no reason to have roads criscrossing that land except to try to defeat those who want it protected.
You'll note that I wrote of moral "liberalism", not fiscal liberalism. While I'd rather not argue fiscal points with you now (though I agree with many points of conservative fiscal policy), I'm sure we are in agreement that moral "liberalism" is a genuinely terrible thing, stances against which are the only political stances taken by the church.
Typical for the congress, dosen't matter if they are democrats or republican 99% of them are the same. It's gotten to the point, they it's a feudilistic (sp) country. We the "little people" are the surfs.....idiots who can't walk and chew gum, and if it wasn't for the kings telling us what to do, we'd all be walking around bumping into everything. They make rules for everyone to follow EXCEPT them! Just look at all the idiots up there complaining about SUV's.......They scream that it's causing global warming, but when they go home, it's in a chauffer driven limosene, or flying home in a private jet, to live in a 40 room mansion that has a 20 car garage. Until this country wakes up, throws ALL of them out, and elects people from "flyover" country, and limits their terms to let say 12 years with NO reelection possibility, it will never change. The lobbyist have their claws well dug into these idiots. It's sad, that 99% of them, have tossed their ethics out the windows for the $$$$ instead.
From the Milonic website:
We have, for some time, been thinking of changing the licensing regarding Government run websites and applications that use our software. The reason for this is due to the administrative overhead we have for issuing free licenses, we can no longer afford to offer free licenses to Government organizations.
TRANSLATION
In light of recent circumstances the price for government organizations will be one mmmmmilion dolars.
Re: the link provided.
;-)
Are they SURE this is a historical opportunity that must not be squandered? They ONLY said it four times, after all...
Acts of massive stupidity are almost never covered by warranty. --me.
The sad truth about this whole thread is that with all the licensing debates and jokes the real problem is ignored. That being that a government with no real grasp on the technology or its implications, good or bad, is debating on a daily basis legislation to regulate that technology.
I think, as most groups are doing these days, that free software advocates should be lobbying congress and that a grasp on technology should be an issue in any election campaign. The US senate is the big time, not some triple A farm team - lets treat it as such.
I was crazy back when being crazy really meant something. (Charles Manson)
Most taxes don't come from the rich and go to the poor. The rich (I'm talking top 1 percent here, not merely upper middle class) pay tax consultants to reduce their taxes to almost nothing. Not to mention that I never hear on talk shows how too much of our tax money is going to the rich. But farm subsidies aren't going to small farmers. They are going to billion dollar companies with fabulously wealthy CEOs who can afford to buy congressmen.
The US tax rates on the highest bracket are the lowest they have been since 1928, the year before the big crash. In the 1950s, that Golden Era of Republicanism, the top tax rate was 78 percent. It remained that high until JFK cut it. How tax and spend of him.
I'm rambling too, so I'll just reiterate, the idea that the rich are taxed for the benefit of the poor is nonsense. What is happening is that the middle class is being taxed for the benefit of both the rich and the poor. This allows the current American political system to continue as the middle is played off against both ends. If the middle class ever decided that the taxes they pay should be used for their own benefit, then things might change.
This is not correct. Communism is an political system, which according to Marx starts of with a dictotarship from the party. This is to remove all personal property. After this there will be ruling by the people. The plan economy is usual the economic system used by communist countires, but china for example uses two economic systems (Hong Kong). Unfortunatly I haven't heard of a communist state were the goverment is controlled by the people instead of the party, so marx ideas were fully implemented, unless I am wrong.
No, key word is non-profit, RTFL (read the fucking license). As, "Please feel free to use this code on your own website free of charge." and "The Free use of this menu is only available to Non-Profit, Educational & Personal web sites." A government web site is non-profit, not a commercial business.
I had seen that before, and my question then is the same as now - What did Bob do that was so bad that he was condemed to such a living hell? Dave must have been REALLY pissed at Bob... :-)
Acts of massive stupidity are almost never covered by warranty. --me.
I mean never fully implemented
CNN, MSNBC, FoxNews, ABC/Disney, and ALL of the others seem to be based on pure viceral knee-jerk reporting.
"Welcome... to the real world."
Edith Keeler Must Die
Nice Sentiments. The people should have the right to question government, and the methods of government selection in this free country don't you. The poster was suggesting modifying the system to prevent career politicians, and thus provide a greater choice of electable representatives. Moving to China, as you so eloquently suggest, would not help, as they brook no dissent from the masses. I feel that it's you, who has lost the plot of this country - a strong, well informed public, working to safeguard democracy from the tyrany of government, is essential in any country. If you aren't patriotic enough to do this, it is you who are neglecting youtr civic duty. And why ship people abroad - one nation, indivisible, remember. And hey, this is a republic.
Nicely done.
This guy most likely has a confederate battle flag sticker on his truck right next to the sticker that says proud to be an American. It just tickles me to no end when I see that.
As has been mentioned elsewhere on this thread: he was selling bad CDs on his site for 16 bucks. So yes it's commercial.
However, if you have a look at his site now, he's taken all that crap off: maybe he or his staff understood that they were getting a ton of hits and he realized what a piece of sh#t his site looked like (and that crass commercialization isn't what his constituents were looking for).
BTW his explanation as to why he made the comments,
âoeI made my comments at yesterdayâ(TM)s hearing because I think that industry is not doing enough to help us find effective ways to stop people from using computers to steal copyrighted, personal or sensitive materials. I do not favor extreme remedies â" unless no moderate remedies can be found. I asked the interested industries to help us find those moderate remedies.â
doesn't hold water. Does no one just say "Sorry I said something stupid" in government? So: since I can't find a moderate remedy for littering (people keep doing it even though I'm fining them) I should start killing them instead? Hmmmm.
I think I am in the wrong business if I can get paid $900 for a javascript menu.
Can you ping me now?... Good!
according to this the authors of the software don't think Hatch would have to pay, if he had tried to license it legaly.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
The U.S.'s lawmakers these days are just too blind-stupid about technology. And it doesn't appear to be changing. Oh yeah, and they're too easily bought by lobbyists.
I'm afraid it's geek's like you who are blind-stupid about politics.
Hatch is proposing a CRAZY proposal that will get a lot of PR. Most everybody will agree it's crazy, but half will want a moderate comprimise.
What do you get when you comprimise between destroying computers to stop P2P and doing nothing to stop P2P?
Hatch is setting up the stage for serious anti-P2P legislation, and if the majority of us keep reacting like you, WE'RE FUCKED!
Politicians pretend to be stupid. Get a clue.
Better yet. Read Machiavelli or Sun Tzu.
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
i like feeding trolls.
every time you respond to a 'mensa babe' (read as high-school dropout fat guy) post, you are feeding a troll. I am proud to have 'mensa babe' on both my foes and freaks list. This is not for 'mensa babe', but for people that don't read comment histories before replying. I'm not saying you shouldn't respond, cause it can be fun, just know you're feeding a troll when you do.
http://xkcd.com/386/
Naw, just prevent candidates from running more than two *consecutive* terms. If they're really popular they can switch between the senate and the house, but otherwise it would serve to shake things up without depriving us of experience. It worked for the Romans for hundreds of years; and it wasn't a failure of this system that led to the fall of the Republic.
This sig wasn't worth reading, was it.
Remember, he doesn't want YOU to get a defense when you're accused by a media company of violating copyrights. They can just take action to hurt your computer or your connection, no matter the cost OR the proof. It's his site, he's responsible for it. Think RIAA care if you know you're comitting piracy? No.
I think this post was deceptively titled.
:p) to rail against their senator (who, by the way, is generally held as a moral and respectable senator..on both sides of party lines), I don't see much good, if any, this has done.
The first thing I thought when I read this is "Why would Senator Hatch be the pirate?". I wasn't aware that any Senators designed their own websites. The fact is, they don't. It is kind of ironic that Mr. Hatche's own website has a pirated script...in light of his recent proposals on piracy prevention. BUT I think that he is not a pirate, he is actually a victim of piracy in this occassion.
He paid a company a lot of money to design his website, and like so many others...he got screwed. It is not uncommon for paid web designers to lift other people's designs, use pirated software, or even steal scripts entirely. It happens every day, the responsible party is the company that stole it, not the unknowing customer.
The headline and the possible irony may have drawn a lot of posts, but outside of a chance for unhappy Utahans (I just coined a phrase
Sure, his philosophy on how to deal with computer piracy is extreme, and even scary. We can rest knowing that such legislation would never make it through the Senate, House, President...or hold up in Courts. It violates every constitutional right that protects individual property.
Speaking of property though, maybe if we'd stop defending Kazaa and filesharing...and admit that 99% of its users pirate software and music, we wouldn't need this legislation. It is users (myself included) that keep it a float.
Clif
clifgriffin > blog
He doesn't do the actual shopping cart on his site, but the very front page of http://www.hatchmusic.com/ says ORDER. Clicking it lets you pick some tunes and enter your CC to PURCHASE the songs. Everything on the site is aimed at getting you to listen to some samples and buy his work.
If that's not commercial, I don't know what is.
"Just the fact that you can say "the Church" and "Orrin Hatch" or "Utah" and everyone knows which religion you are talking about is interesting in the context of power. "
Actually, when folks say "The Church", with a capital C, the usually mean the Roman Catholic Church. That's what I thought, until I read down a ways.
If you fall off a building, go real limp, because maybe you'll look like a dummy and people will be like hey, free dummy
This only goes to show further how out-of-touch and un-informed Hatch really is about computers. He should be making no laws governing their usage until he can build his own fucking web site.
You are so full of shit. Should senators not be able to make laws regarding auto safety until they can build their own fucking car? You're a moron. Sure, it would be *nice* if our elected representatives were experts on every single facet of technology/industry/art/education/everything else. It's just not very feasible. Besides, web sites aren't the only things computers can be used for. Shouldn't he have to learn how to code, too? And how to rush in de_dust? and how to make that really complex powerpoint presentation? Bah.
http://xkcd.com/386/
Front... /* i am the license for the menu */
Back
(duh)
Or does the Senator own the copyright to that statement as well...
His site does not mention the
destruction of personal computers.
Did he remove it?
-=- Many seek good nights and lose good days.
Yeah, definitely.
Especially if you completely fail to understand the American political system.
The software that is 'pirated' is from a UK company. Sen. Hatch is not interesting in protecting the rights of anyone but the big American companies that pay his bills...
On a side note, with this becoming more and more common, is there any kind of plan for a tag in the future? Seems like the right thing to do.
Seems to me that a government web site is non-commercial.
Where in the hell did you get a ridiculous idea like that?!?
I'm curious about this seniority system - I'm not really informed about this, but how can this be constitutional? Isn't the voter supposed to decide who gets power, rather than the politicians themselves? I'm not a US citizen, so sorry about being ignorant about this - I'm just interested.
Number two is that he's going to blame his embarassment on "shareware" without ever looking into free software or what it's all about. The web developer will be fired for not using a comercial system you can buy in a box. He'll never underastand that the GPL is the most honest software deal going. Closed source software is easy to reverse engineer and such "piracy" hapens all the time. Less rigorous open source licenses can lead to missunderstandings like this one. The GPL forces prominent notification of your rights and carries no "pay me if you go comercial" restrictions.
Yeah, the developer is going to be fired for having half a clue. That's what you get when you work for someone like Hatch.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Do we have permission to Cut -n- Paste your letter?
I emailed this link to the host of my favorite morning radio show last night before I went to bed, and when my alarm clock radio went off at 5:50 this morning, I heard him reading it on the air. Jim Quinn (host) had talked about Senator Hatch's plans before, and (like many of us) had found it very ironic that this man enploys pirates to do his web site.
This space for rent, inquire within.
Should I start waving a pistol at everybody who cuts me off, or torching the car of that guy down the street who plays his stereo too loud?
Have you BEEN TO L.A.?
Sun Tzu hasn't yet made it onto my "read today" list, but Machiavelli is one I recently finished. "The Prince" was only moderately concerned with the the rights of the people, whereas the main focus was on the stability of the state - the getting and keeping of power. Maybe Sun Tzu is a bit more relevant to your comments, but, as I said, I wouldn't know not having read it.
Next point - politicians don't have to pretend to be stupid. Seriously - those who aren't professional politicians have business backgrounds. That gives them a lot of administrative sense, and really that makes them very qualified for the overall task. And you may be right, Hatch trying to start the bidding higher so he can get the price he wants. But laws already exist for companies to pursue and recover damages from "pirates". And really, they seem to work, insofar as the owners of the content are willing to look for violators.
Currently they can take several thousand people to court, and after due process, if they are guilty, can get everything they have, and, as I understand it, a portion of their future earnings.
Under the most extreme of the new proposals, they can destroy the computers of several thousand people without any legal review.
I can't see that the law needs to be changed.
Inconceivable!
License Details:
Type: Professional
Number: 188909
Dated: 20th June 2003
So under Hatch's system, the computer destroyer sends him a warning. He then registers the software and puts up the link (he doesn't actually owe the company any money if he has non-profit status), thereby avoiding having his computer destroyed. He then thinks, "Great, the system works." Maybe if some bug in the sw didn't notice he was now in compliance and destroyed his computer anyway, hee'd think twice about his policy.
Vote for Pedro
If this legislation were applied to stolen code, every computer on the internet would self-destruct. Talk about a WMD! We are kidding ourselves when we compare stolen art to stolen computer instructions. EVERYONE COPIES CODE.
Congress is made up of two houses: the House of Representatives, and the Senate.
Both Senators and Representatives are Congressmen, however, Senators prefer to be known as Senators, rather than associating with the Rabble in the House of Representatives.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
Regarding the issue of your proposal to allow copyright holders to respond to violators with the destruction of their property.
I suspect by now you've already received a fair amount of negative response to your comments. I wish to add my own.
I consider the act of destroying a copyright violator's personal property by the copyright holder to be analogous with me having the right to go into my neighbor's home and smash his stereo equipment because he refuses to turn down/off his music while I am trying to sleep. Stillwater, Oklahoma has a law/ordinance against excessive noise in residential areas and I can call the police if my neighbor is violating that ordinance. If he continues to refuse to comply, he may be fined or worse. If I destroyed his personal property to prevent his violation, I would be liable for the damages, be fined and possibly jailed. This is as it should be.
I have been a professional software developer for over 14 years. My livelihood is derived directly from licensing copyrighted software to other people. If they copy and use my software without paying, I lose; however, our constitution says that I may not destroy or otherwise deprive another of his property *without due process*!
AND THIS IS AS IT SHOULD BE!
I hope you realize just how thoughtless and anti-constitutional your suggestions were. Please apply your future energies to more practical and legal solutions.
PS: In spite of (or perhaps because of) the RIAA's recent actions and the general S.O.P. of the recording industry with respect to treatment of their artists/content providers, expect a revolution in which musicians specifically and artists in general move to independent labels and means of content distribution. I believe this is happening already and will ultimately make the organizations which the RIAA represents nearly irrelevent in future copyright discussions. Do not treat their heavy-handed lobbying as a serious cause. They are scared because their business model is flawed in today's context, not merely because of flagrant copyright violation. Their business model cannot survive, but they desperately wish it to do so. If they can't change to meet the consumers' needs, they deserve to perish as a more appropriate model takes over.
No, actually, we don't want to destroy the computers of spammers. Why? Because a lot of hosts that actually do the spamming are not owned by the spammer, they are simply hacked servers.
Now, being able to press a monentary damage against a spammer, or charge them for hacking an open relay... that's a little better.
Yes the Mormons own Utah, I don't know about Canopy, but they were founded by Ray Noorda in 1995. And Ray Noorda is a Mormon, along with Stephen Covey, Brent Scrowcroft, Alan Ashton, Kevin Rollins (vice-chair Dell), and many others.
One key thing to keep in mind - Orrin Hatch, and many many others in the upper levels of government, are Mormons. Just to be sure everyone is clear on this, MORMONS are NOT Biblical Christians! Born-again, Fundamentalist, or Evangelical Christians agree on Biblical doctrine. Mormons have a completely different definition of God, of Jesus Christ, of Satan, of salvation, of Heaven, and Hell than is contained in the Bible. They believe what their cult founder, Joseph Smith, and subsequent "prophets" have told them. It is frequently contradictory, some would say whacko ("as God once was, we are now; as God now is, we may become").
In other words, Mormonism has used words from Christianity, but not concepts. Sort of like MS calling their lame-o program "shared source" and trying to leverage off the goodwill associated with "open source" as a term.
FYI
I'm sure downloading someone else's letter and sending it as your own will ease the Senator's mind regarding the use of the internet to copy and redistribute content. If everyone else does as you urge, the onslaught of identical letters from the independent thinkers of /. will certainly sway the man. One of the worst ways to get your point across is to send a form letter. Another is to send a flaming response telling him just how 'stupid' he is.
The best ways to get through to an elected official are:
1. Personal visit
2. Telegram
3. Phone call
4. Personal letter (although this has slowed down due to checks after the anthrax scare)
Other methods drop off rapidly from there in terms of their effectiveness. In each of the cases above, keeping your cool and explaining the problem clearly (along with better solutions if you've got them) is a given. A personal visit from a hothead is likely to land you in jail.
--
As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
So in what way does common sense say that Hatch should be exempt if he didn't know it was happening? He wouldn't give you or me a chance to defend ourselves - he would blow up our computer.
Fuck him. I'm tired of politicians thinking that the rules they create only apply to "the little people" and not them.
Oh genius boy, glass houses and all that. Congress covers both the Senate and House of Representatives, so congressman can be used to refer to a member of either body.
Well I'm the doctor and I say you're dead, so shut up and take it like a man!
Heh ;) Hope your kidding. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but I think duplicates would diminish the effect of each letter. If it was an ironic comment on suggesting that unauthorized duplication of original works was a marginal crime, your tweak is well concieved and quite amusing.
BTW, yes, I did spell check the one I sent in.
As for term limits, the same people who would be put out of a job by them would have to vote for them. This, unfortunately, just won't happen.
That's Bigboo TAY! TAY!
I'm sure there's more. I guess your ancestors' dissent was negligible.
You can guess what you like, but you really should find more reliable sources than Wu Siu Yan, John D. Lee and your own guesses before drawing conclusions.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Any other suggestions?
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Since you insist.
http://www.onlineutah.com/historyrockwell.shtml
Go Fish.
I grew up in the Fulda Gap, where did you?
A Senator is likely to be quite offended if you call him a Congressman. Kind of like how "sleeping with" really means "having sex with"....Congressman == House of Represenatives.
When Clinton was president, if both senators from a nominees didn't support him, the nomination died in comittee. Now that we have a Republican president, the same standard doesn't apply for democratic senators.....
I didn't say he had to build his own computer. I said he needed to illustrate in some way that he had some understanding of computers before he start suggesting legislation concerning them (my comment about him building his own web site was a less direct way of getting that point across.) Is that an unreasonable position to you? To put it back into your own analogy, shouldn't a lawmaker have some sense about how cars work before they pass legislation concerning cars? That's a closer analogy to what I said originally. You're exaggerating to muddy the valid point I was making.
Given that and the name-calling, I suspect you know that and don't care and are responding because the idea of criticizing Hatch's idiocy bothers you for some reason.
--Rick "If it isn't broken, take it apart and find out why."
He's in good company.
Nobody ever forced anyone to use that javascript. You dont like the price ? Find an alternative, or write your own.
Putting an insane price on something is not illegal. It might not be good business wise, but it's still the owner's choice.
Using it without paying what the author requests for it _is_ illegal tho.
Marriage is considered capital punishment for the theft of a goat in some third world countries...
I didn't say he had to build his own computer. I said he needed to illustrate in some way that he had some understanding of computers before he start suggesting legislation concerning them (my comment about him building his own web site was a less direct way of getting that point across.) Is that an unreasonable position to you? To put it back into your own analogy, shouldn't a lawmaker have some sense about how cars work before they pass legislation concerning cars? That's a closer analogy to what I said originally. You're exaggerating to muddy the valid point I was making.
Given that and the name-calling, I suspect you know that and don't care and are responding because the idea of criticizing Hatch's idiocy bothers you for some reason.
Um. No. He doesn't have to be able to build a web page to have a 'general idea' of how computers work. Just as he wouldn't have to design the interior of a car to have a general idea of how *it* works. I was simply pointing out that no one can reasonably expect every senator to know everything about everything. However, he can still make an uninformed comment if he wants to. It doesn't make him a hypocryte, which is what *you* said. You made a fallacious argument and got busted, and now you claim I'm exxagerating to muddy your point. Bullshit. Your point was crap. I have no problem with people criticizing senator hatch. I have a problem with people making nonsensical arguments to do it. I'm sure he has a general idea of how computers work, as in enough to use one for very basic uses, just like most people use their cars for very basic uses. As I said before, it would be *nice* if senators knew a lot about every facet of american life, however it's not *reasonable* to expect it. That was my point. To sum up: 'building a web page' != general idea of how computers work. senators don't know *everything* about *everything*, and yet they still have to make laws somehow. No one is seriously suggesting that senator hatch's opinion would be written into law. That is all.
http://xkcd.com/386/
Heh. I'm a little bit shocked to find that MSNBC has managed to outstrip Fox for most biased coverage.
NPR pushes its own agenda of course (quite heavily), even if I agree with it more. BBC and CBC are both quite good, but they're out of country. For that matter, no one who needs to know about Hatch listens to NPR anyways.
My point was to appeal to the dirt-digging muckraking WORST of the media. Get someone at (insert crappy media outlet here) to really make it a mission to take down the Senator, and then watch the sparks fly. NPR doesn't hold enough sway to do that.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
I still don't see anything there that even attempts to support the claim, which was:
Any other suggestions?
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
We elect these people to make laws that affect our lives with the implicit assumption that they will inform themselves enough to make sensible decisions in that regard. Having a "general idea of how computers work" doesn't cut it, especially if he throws out the moronic suggestion that a computer should be open to actual destruction if it's used for illegal purposes. Likewise, I wouldn't want a representative making laws about automobiles with just a "general idea" of how cars work. If a lawmaker is unwilling to educate himself in this regard, then he has no business being a lawmaker. The fact that Hatch makes silly suggestions about destroying computers and puts up a website with his name on it that contains illegally used software demonstrates to me that he has failed to educate himself about computers--regardless of who is directly responsible for the latter. These things betray his lack of knowledge in this area and, IMO, everything he utters in that regard should be taken no more seriously than a joke.
To sum up: 'building a web page' != general idea of how computers work.
But if he had some sense of how these things work, maybe he would have noticed this himself and questioned it. It's clear that he has not one whit of comprehension about the functioning of Web sites and involves himself no further than signing off on its design. He is a know-nothing in terms of computers. That's a statement I make from his actions and utterances. He could prove me wrong, but I'm not holding my breath.
Good luck defending him however.
--Rick "If it isn't broken, take it apart and find out why."
Well.
In your case, I suppose you see what you want to see.
Oh your right, the church is really good and really right, no matter what the history or the direct quotes might attest to. Blood atonement is just another word for "happy playtime goodie goodie fun time." They weren't really killed, they were pampered and bathed in milk and honey and given three virgins to have their way with.
I don't understand this need for Mormons to defend an institution even after being hit in the face with a least a few facts. I mean it isn't as if the church today is as blood-obsessed as it was back then. What's the use in re-writing history? Are you just supposed to forget that baddy baddy icky stuff?
If you actually look into the sources, and not the church propaganda, you'll see clearly enough. But I suppose trying to convince someone like yourself is a waste of time. You will defend until you collapse, no matter the truth.
Young did have a secret police. They did dispose of heathens and non-beleivers, and dissent wasn't an option in the strictest sense. Who gives a shit whether he fought with his wives, or didn't like cattle sales or buttermilk, or whatever bullshit you are talking about. Order out here was defined by fanatical loyalty.
I mean what do you want? You think they kept records on this crap? You want the police report? The prophet dude telling you that Brigham ordered killings? Jesus...
There are many sources that back up the claim of killings and blood atonement. Just connect the dots...
How about: "Dear Senator (down the) Hatch: Go fuck yourself. Do it today!" The idiot Senator needs to be taught a lesson, and it can only be taught to him by voters. I don't live in Utah so there is nothing I can do, but I hope the folks who live there can blow his fascist ass out of office. If anyone fucks with MY computers and I can identify them, I will hunt them down and kill them. Period. Fighting me on this is not a fight you really want to join. Do I make myself clear?
You have an unsupportably narrow definition of hypocrisy. We agree the pompous ass is unlikable. My reason for it is he has made a living denouncing what are generally agreed to be vices. He did not ever claim that he was denouncing only a few, specific behaviors. He has claimed a mantle of moral authority. Before this particular scandal broke, there were probably fewer than three people who condemned the set of things he condemned while excluding gambling from that set. Once the scandal broke, his allies in the conservative dominated media (and it is dominated by conservatives - compare the air time given conservative spokespeople to that given to moderates and leftists) then drew that distinction. But they wouldn't have before.
If he had only one particular thing he railed against, only one axe to grind, then it wouldn't be hypocrisy. But he has set himself up as the arbiter of moral behavior, and has railed against all the sins he himself doesn't pursue. And he knows the ones he does pursue are sins. I am sure that he believes gambling is not a moral behavior. Besides, it is very common for a hypocrite to forgive and regard his/her own behavior - that's its essence! So Bennett is a hypocrite for denouncing vices while having them. In his position he cannot hector others' harmless vices while having any himself and be clear of hypocrisy. It's not that he has denounced a select few behaviors; he has championed a moral code in broad and general ways and failed to live up to it himself. His definition of vice comes down to "what other people do" and that is essential to the moral blindness of hypocrisy.
"All the things you do are bad. What I do (which is indisputably comparable) is acceptable." I don't follow your statement drawing a distinction between a vice and immorality. A vice is a vice because it's immoral. He's a hypocrite for giving his behavior a pass while judging everyone elses on a vast range of topics. That's bullshit, and it's hypocrisy. I don't know if he has specifically denounced theft, but given his pose as the moral guardian of our (my!) behavior, he would be a hypocrite for embezzling from one of his organizations. There are other sins/moral failings he might have omitted from his specific list, but being guilty of any of them, while presenting himself as a moral authority, fairly brands him a hypocrite.
I also disagree with the degree of alignment with a condemned behavior ones own behavior must have to qualify as hypocritical. Newt is certainly a scumbag and I hope the next time he says "family values" he chokes. But I don't think it has to be the exact same act (sex with an intern, as Newt did) to qualify as hypocrisy. Anything substantially similar would do. Getting a lap dance would suffice for one who condemned sexual immorality. A serious porn habit...hmmm. Dunno- there's probably enough distance from that.
Our dispute is whether gambling itself makes him a hypocrite, and if I haven't convinced you, we can still agree the shithead is a hypocrite for specific behaviors he himself has denounced.
I'm pretty sure he railed against dishonesty during the Clinton era. So his lies about this episode make him a hypocrite. He lied about his gambling habit, its extent and its costs.
While drug czar, he used drugs. His were legal, but they were still mood altering, health damaging substances. Anyone who uses the phrase "drugs AND alcohol", rather than "Drugs, including alcohol" is a liar.
Besides, don't you find it smacks of Clintonian hair-splitting to say, "I never said you shouldn't gamble." It sounds a lot like excluding blowjobs from the definition of sex.
Being a judgemental, bigoted ass is worse, and he's guilty of that.
Hypocrisy can be fairly admirable: holding ideals you can't quite live up to is not such a bad thing. Combine it with honesty and self-knowledge and you have a grown up. Leave it out and you have Bill Bennett.
I can see this is pointless. You're convinced that the extreme stories are all true, and refuse to consider them critically. Further, you're also convinced that I cannot view them critically. That's not true, and it's also not true that I've never looked into this.
Without getting into specifics, what I have found is:
I have no intention of defending the Church; I don't think it needs to be defended. My position on the Church's history has always been that I find regrettable the tendency to suppress the distasteful parts. In part I understand the underlying desire, but I don't think it's necessary. The history of any sufficiently large group of people will have plenty of black spots, and particularly so when the people in question are of the type who would uproot themselves and their families and trudge off into the wilderness following a prophet. Such people are, by definition, not big on moderation, and while nearly all of them were basically good people, everyone makes mistakes. The sort of mistakes that happen in the life and death environment of a frontier tend to be deadly. Lee is a good example; I'm convinced that he really did believe Young told him to massacre those people, but I find it far more plausible, given all the rest of what I've read (Mormons were/are journal-keepers, so the record is voluminous), that Young told him to respond "firmly" or some such, and that Lee interpreted that the way *he* wanted to, based on his own frustration, anger and fear.
All I'm doing here is questioning claims that don't seem to have any serious historical basis. What you've given me so far is precisely nothing; some purportedly christian preacher with an anti-Mormon agenda spouting quotes from John D. Lee, whose writings certainly cannot stand on their own.
I suggest you take a hard look at the evidence you're so gullibly absorbing and see how much of it can be corroborated.
If you do find some good evidence, let me know. Honestly, I'm quite sure that there was indeed at least some fire under all of the smoke, and it wouldn't shock me to learn that Brigham Young's absolute authority went to his head at some point. If he did, in fact, order assassinations, he'll get his. I'm not prepared to believe that without better evidence than what I've seen so far, though.
Regarding blood atonement, I don't think you understand what it means. The basic doctrine is simple enough, but it took on additional meaning to the early Saints, primarily as a result of the intense persecution, and individuals added their own interpretations. Much of what was done in the name of blood atonement has little relationship to the theology.
You want the police report?
Actually, there are many... all of the lawmen involved in various incidents documented their observations and actions. Of course, even police reports contain bias and benefit from corroboration. Courts insist on it, in fact, and historians consider it very important as well.
And, BTW, the most significant disagreement my ancestors had with Young was related to the Massacre, not cows. Look up John D. Lee's list of alleged participants, and you'll find a pair of Willdens (though Lee misspelled their last name).
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You are right it is pointless and for just the reason you state.
But I see it from the other side of the argument. You are unwilling to see past church party line.
After all it took Catholics 500 Years to say Galileo was right and the Pope was wrong. Why would Mormons be any different?
Young was not perfect and made mistakes. He and Smith and other church leaders of the time were raciest when compared to our values. Look up the entire Black Priesthood thing. If he is the Profit and speaks for God who come they changed his revealed prophecy in 1980 and now Blacks can hold the Priesthood? So which revealed prophecy is right?
Smith said "Man can have many wives", Young "Wait No he can't!, but you can still have multiple wives in the after life."
Young changed Church Doctrine to suit his political goals Just as the Church continues to do so today.
Young having his own personal squad of goons was just part of the equation.
I grew up in the Fulda Gap, where did you?
You are unwilling to see past church party line.
I know you believe this, and I really have no way to convince you otherwise. I will mention that I did not always believe in the Church, and that I struggled with all of the issues we're discussing, and many more, before my conversion.
After all it took Catholics 500 Years to say Galileo was right and the Pope was wrong. Why would Mormons be any different?
Well, for one thing, Mormons believe in education (and always have), whereas Catholics of the day preferred to allow only their priests to have access to knowledge and the concomitant ability to think critically and independently.
There are other reasons, but I think that one's enough.
Young was not perfect and made mistakes.
Only one Perfect Man has walked this earth.
He and Smith and other church leaders of the time were raciest when compared to our values.
Absolutely true. They were men of their time, with the attitudes and philosophies of their time. The same is true of us today, and, no doubt, people of 100 years hence will consider some of our ideas to be barbaric. I think our current attitude towards mental illness is one, although the only reason I can see that is because it's changing.
Look up the entire Black Priesthood thing.
I don't have to look it up; I lived through it (though I was a child).
If he is the Profit and speaks for God who come they changed his revealed prophecy in 1980 and now Blacks can hold the Priesthood? So which revealed prophecy is right?
Well, there never was any specific revelation that barred black men from holding the priesthood. The early Saints, like pretty much everyone of their day, considered blacks to be inferior and their skin color to be the "mark of Cain", which the Bible says would mark all of Cain's descendents. Other theories were bandied about, including the one that gained the most currency, which is that blacks were the third who were not valiant in the War in Heaven (i.e. they didn't go with Satan, but neither did they really fight on the side of Jesus). But none of that was really revealed doctrine, it was just the misinterpretation of scripture, when filtered through preconceptions.
If you want a better example, look at the fact that in Joseph Smith's original translation of the Book of Mormon, the righteous peoples were always referred to as "white". Spencer Kimball corrected those to "pure".
Why did God allow that to go without correcting it earlier? He apparently decided that the people of the Church were not strong enough to accept the truth. The early Church always opposed slavery and always viewed all people as Children of God, worthy of respect and fair treatment (which, BTW, is also why they never had much trouble with the Native Americans), but racism was pretty deeply embedded into the people of the day. From my point of view, I find it surprising that the revelation correcting that error didn't come until the 70s; but considering the turmoil it caused in the Church when it came, perhaps it really couldn't have come until after we Americans had had our noses c0llectively rubbed in it. (The Church was still a predominantly American church at that point).
Smith said "Man can have many wives", Young "Wait No he can't!, but you can still have multiple wives in the after life."
Umm, Young didn't say that. You're thinking of Wilford Woodruff. And the doctrine regarding polygamy really hasn't changed; polygamy is still considered to be a divinely-directed practice. What did change is that the Lord directed the Church to stop practicing it on earth. Although the reasons weren't really given to us, if you study the history it's pretty obvious what at least some of them were, IMO.
Personally, I'm very interested to see what happens when polygamy is legalized in the US (I think it will be, as a byproduct of the push to legitimize homosexual marriages -- as a li
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