Xbox Linux Made Possible Without a Modchip

Woops, too late by Iscariot_ · 2003-07-03 17:45 · Score: 5, Insightful

Too late for Microsoft. It's been released. No way of stopping it. Just like Nintendo had no way of stopping UltraHLE.

Re:Woops, too late by Osrin · 2003-07-03 18:11 · Score: 0, Offtopic

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-06 -30
Re:Woops, too late by RTPMatt · 2003-07-03 18:15 · Score: 2, Insightful

go them, its M$ own fault. they tryed. as i have always said, support http://anti-dmca.org/ LEARNING IS NOT ILLIGAL!

PS: be sure to save the page, ya never know how long it will be up for
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:44 · Score: 0

Didn't the first IBM PC clones exploit the BIOS (tape feature or something) to get clones of it out in the first days (legally)?
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:45 · Score: 0

WOOHOO Long Live RealityMan and Ultrahle :)
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:52 · Score: 5, Funny

Learning is not "illigal"?
Perhaps you should exercise your "rite", then.
Re:Woops, too late by tankdilla · 2003-07-03 19:14 · Score: 3, Interesting

I find this amusing and interesting. It's yet another example of the wild-wild-west type environment that the Information Age is in now. People come up with ways to beat the system, and corporate comes back with litigation (ie RIAA comes to mind). And every once in awhile litigation works, but other times it doesn't work, and thus people will continue to find cracks in the system. There are many analogies that can be drawn from this (and i know this isn't really new news, since the Xbox has been cracked for awhile now), but I'm wondering when these big companies will get tired of waging war through litigation and just start playing hardball with the rest of the Internet. At some point Microsoft has got to get tired of all the stuff they go through and deploy some hackers themselves, to protect their interests. And this idea isn't really too far-fetched. Just today, the US government put a bounty on Saddam's head. That is an outright act of desperation to get him. The gov'ment uses spies just like other countries to gain counterintelligence. And they do it in a sneaky way, making sure the press just reports the official business, but never questioning where intelligence or 'fortunate victories' come from. Eventually these corporations will need to take a hint and start some black/grey hat work of their own to support their interests. Most likely it is already going on. But if it is, I can't tell. They keep getting caught with their pants down so much to the extent that we're barely even suprised anymore. It's almost expected at this point.

--
-Look lively. LOOK LIVELY!!! --Mr. Shmallow
Re:Woops, too late by GMontag451 · 2003-07-03 19:42 · Score: 2, Interesting

No, they didn't have to exploit anything. IBM published full documentation on the BIOS. All they had to do was "clean-room" engineer it. In other words, they had some guys paraphrase the documentation, and then had some other guys who had never seen the documentation implement a BIOS that did all the same things.
Re:Woops, too late by grahamm · 2003-07-03 19:46 · Score: 1

Not only the full documentation but also the full source code.
Re:Woops, too late by zerocool^ · 2003-07-03 19:54 · Score: 2, Funny

As the wise man once said,

"You can't un-ring a bell"

~Will

--
sig?
Re:Woops, too late by javilon · 2003-07-03 21:18 · Score: 1

So basically you are saying that companies should start acting in illegal ways?

I don't really think it is a good idea.

--

When his defense asked, "Which computer has Jon Johansen trespassed upon?" the answer was: "His own."
Re:Woops, too late by Anonvmous+Coward · 2003-07-03 21:33 · Score: 4, Insightful

"go them, its M$ own fault."

MS's own fault? They have no obligation to fill that request. They do, on the other hand, have reason not to comply as their units are sold at a loss. On top of that, the way MS was approached was lame. "Give us what we want that's not in your own best interests or we'll tell people how to break your machine and potentially lose more money by having people buy XBOXes for uses other than buying the games that make them money."

Frankly, I don't see how Free-X would have felt that they were approaching MS in a reasonable way. Their handling of this situation was irresponsible, and trying to sound like the victim here makes things worse. They've essentially validated the need for the DMCA. All MS has to do now is post a loss as a result of it, and the courts will have to factor that in their decisions.

It would be a really good idea to make sure that whatever comes of Linux on the XBOX encourages people to continue using their XBOX as a game machine. Use it to do stuff that doesn't get in the way of playing games. Playing movies or MP3s is good, they can pop their game disc in and play. Using it as a server is bad, they want it up all the time and don't want to interrupt it.

I'd feel a whole lot better about this situation if the people involved were trying to expand the use of the system instead of just flipping off Microsoft. (I'd also feel better if uses for this machine running Linux weren't better served with a cheapy PC.)
Re:Woops, too late by KrispyKringle · 2003-07-03 21:42 · Score: 1

And your post is another example of this idea that the Internet is unregulable; that "information wants to be free." Cut me a break. Government and corporate interests can and do regulate what goes on the Internet. Corporate interests, indeed, play a special role, since the portion of the Internet used by most people is almost entirely corporate.
Corporations would not benefit from doing things illicitly; they would be opening themselves to liability, and anyway, litigation is clearly the prefered means of excerting force. Well, litigation and PAC funds. You seem to be attempting an analogy to the US's hunt for Hussein, but it never really makes it off the ground. Where are the similarities?
There is a fair body of discussion of this idea and many people who are quite concerned that you are very wrong.
Re:Woops, too late by gclef · 2003-07-03 22:44 · Score: 3, Informative

At some point Microsoft has got to get tired of all the stuff they go through and deploy some hackers themselves, to protect their interests.

Microsoft is already doing this. One of the guys I used to work with in the security realm is now at Microsoft, checking for exploitable code & paths in Palladium. I expect he'll to see this & prevent it in any Trusted system release.
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 23:12 · Score: 0

Amen, brother-man! Microsoft is soooo stupid. They could have played ball with these people but noooooo, they had to own all the balls and the bats and not let anyone else have gloves. To hell with that and to hell with them.

Let the GPL sources fly!!!
Re:Woops, too late by EzInKy · 2003-07-03 23:33 · Score: 5, Interesting

Though I agree with some of what you say the bottom line is the purchaser of an X-Box owns the machine, not Microsoft. He can do what ever he wants with the hardware once he has the sales receipt in his hand.

--
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
Re:Woops, too late by baldvin · 2003-07-04 00:14 · Score: 2, Interesting

(I'd also feel better if uses for this machine running Linux weren't better served with a cheapy PC.) Xbox is silent. And it is very cheap, considering how much does it take to buy a pc that is this silent. I, and lots of others, do not have separate room where I could put that cheap pc. If Xbox is mine, I'd like to use it... because I need it. That means, there is a valid reason to use it for a different purpose, as a server, even if you didn't see it.
Re:Woops, too late by Dr.+Evil · 2003-07-04 00:43 · Score: 5, Interesting

"Give us what we want that's not in your own best interests or we'll tell people how to break your machine and potentially lose more money by having people buy XBOXes for uses other than buying the games that make them money."
It's a little more like:
"You know that problem you wouldn't help us with? Well, we figured it out, but we don't think you'll like the solution. Can you help us with an alternative solution which is in your best interest? No? Ok, then we'll just do it our own way."
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 00:45 · Score: 0

{nitpick}

RealityMan made the GUI and soem other small stuff. Honours for the breakthrough HLE code in UltraHLE goes to Epsilon.

{/nitpick}
Re:Woops, too late by Clansman · 2003-07-04 00:45 · Score: 2, Insightful

Actually, I think this is not much like the wild west - which was anarchic and open - you could disappear if you wanted and control was intermittent and defeatable/corruptable.

No, this is too intimate a battle - far more like living within a 1984 type stalinist or fascist regime with the oligarchy constantly scheming and blocking the underground who are always on the run. The Matrix perhaps, too.

This ain't no wild west
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 00:47 · Score: 1, Interesting

To me, the most critical thing in the hobby market right now is the lack of good software courses, books and software itself. Without good software and an owner who understands programming, a hobby computer is wasted. Will quality software be written for the hobby market?
Almost a year ago, Paul Allen and myself, expecting the hobby market to expand, hired Monte Davidoff and developed Altair BASIC. Though the initial work took only two months, the three of us have spent most of the last year documenting, improving and adding features to BASIC. Now we have 4K, 8K, EXTENDED, ROM and DISK BASIC. The value of the computer time we have used exceeds $40,000.
The feedback we have gotten from the hundreds of people who say they are using BASIC has all been positive. Two surprising things are apparent, however, 1) Most of these "users" never bought BASIC (less thank 10% of all Altair owners have bought BASIC), and 2) The amount of royalties we have received from sales to hobbyists makes the time spent on Altair BASIC worth less than $2 an hour.
Why is this? As the majority of hobbyists must be aware, most of you steal your software. Hardware must be paid for, but software is something to share. Who cares if the people who worked on it get paid?
Is this fair? One thing you don't do by stealing software is get back at MITS for some problem you may have had. MITS doesn't make money selling software. The royalty paid to us, the manual, the tape and the overhead make it a break-even operation. One thing you do do is prevent good software from being written. Who can afford to do professional work for nothing? What hobbyist can put 3-man years into programming, finding all bugs, documenting his product and distribute for free? The fact is, no one besides us has invested a lot of money in hobby software. We have written 6800 BASIC, and are writing 8080 APL and 6800 APL, but there is very little incentive to make this software available to hobbyists. Most directly, the thing you do is theft.
What about the guys who re-sell Altair BASIC, aren't they making money on hobby software? Yes, but those who have been reported to us may lose in the end. They are the ones who give hobbyists a bad name, and should be kicked out of any club meeting they show up at.
I would appreciate letters from any one who wants to pay up, or has a suggestion or comment. Just write to me at 1180 Alvarado SE, #114, Albuquerque, New Mexico, 87108. Nothing would please me more than being able to hire ten programmers and deluge the hobby market with good software.
Bill Gates
General Partner, Micro-Soft
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 00:53 · Score: 0

Of course it would be a perfect way for M$ themselves to be behind the actual exploit with the intent of "promoting" said DMCA.

Lets face it most of us react with are emotions without considering possiblities, things are seldom what they seem.
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 00:56 · Score: 0

u sir, are a moron. too stupid for words.
Re:Woops, too late by The+Only+Druid · 2003-07-04 01:16 · Score: 1

Or, as Steve Martin once said,

"You can unscrew a light bulb".

(as opposed, of course, to a pregnant woman)

--
"Stumble before you crawl"
Re:Woops, too late by acebone · 2003-07-04 01:20 · Score: 2, Insightful

What he said was:

> Eventually these corporations will need to take a hint and start some black/grey hat work of their own to support their interests

Could the words 'Eventually' and 'will need to' be replaced with 'Often' and 'do' respectively ? I am afraid so...

--
Check out my PHP Url Validator
Re:Woops, too late by mdielmann · 2003-07-04 01:45 · Score: 1

How do you define this as black-hat? They purchase a piece of equipment, which they are, by law, entitled to use in any legal way, including turning it into an aquarium, for spare parts, or a linux box. They even go so far as to say their exploit won't work for pirated games, but that easy task is left to those who know how - more than most do. So they stay entirely within their legal rights (with the possible exception of DMCA, which is another ball game), and you compare them to black-hats? Sure, there was hacking involved, and it wasn't the intended use of the manufacturer, but that's not illegal. I don't get it.

--
Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 02:00 · Score: 0

Maybe you meant this? It's one of the funnier ones, I must admit. Reminds me of slashdot all over.
Re:Woops, too late by MrLint · 2003-07-04 02:09 · Score: 4, Insightful

It's yet another example of the wild-wild-west type environment that the Information Age is in now

Well the information age has become the age of the consumer, by default, is a criminal. So really the wild west analogy makes some sense here. If this current trend keeps up of "protecting" big business from all of their paranoid delusions there wont be anyone but 'criminals' left. We know full well that the RIAA/MPAA would ban what we know as 'fair use' in a heartbeat if it meant more sales. They wish to control sales, distribution and methods of consumption. Don't consume your music in fashion they want? You are a criminal.
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 02:21 · Score: 1, Interesting

Did you even read Free-X's version of the story. They tried contacting Microsoft many times, even before going to the press, and got stonewalled every time. Microsoft couldn't even be bothered to meet with them to verify the exploit was genuine. This is sounding like the Microsoft of olde, who liked to refuse their software contained any security flaws what so ever.
Re:Woops, too late by dissy · 2003-07-04 02:34 · Score: 3, Insightful

While its not MS's fault that they didnt cave to these demands, and I do aggree their last demand made them look childish, plus the fact we didnt get to see their previous 'talks' with MS (They could have made nothing but this one childish demand for all we really know)

But saying that MS sells their stuff too cheap is NOT our problem or fault nor should matter in anything at all.

Snippits from your post:
> They do, on the other hand, have reason not to comply as their units are
> sold at a loss.
and
> All MS has to do now is post a loss as a result of it, and the courts will have
> to factor that in their decisions.

By this reasoning, little Jimmy that bought an XboX and one game is costing MS money, so MS should be allowed to sue him for loss of profit.

Or maybe I bought an XboX waiting for one particular game to be released, and it keeps getting delayed.. Uhoh, I'm costing MS money! Time to get sued.

No.

MS selling stuff too cheap is their fault, and their stupidity.

If the courts aggreed with you, any loser on ebay that sold something cheap and later realized it was worth alot more money could sue the buyer.

When a person or company sells something for alot less than its worth, its called stupidity and stupid people deserve what they get.

If you sold something to me for $10 that cost you $50 to make, you have no legal or moral grounds to bitch and complain about it. The deal is done. it was your fault for not looking into what price to set.

The future isnt garneteed, nor do any laws care about the future.
Doing something stupid now under the asumption you will get money in the future is called gambling which in most states is illegal.

An example is buying a lottery ticket. You are paying for a piece of paper that is worth probably $0.05 in paper product, yet will cost $5 or more.
That is stupid.
But its stupidity in the hopes that you will get alot more money in the future.
Its a Gamble.

You dont hear "The state lottery cost me money, i bought the ticket knowing it was at a lost cuz i planned on getting money from the winnings!"
(Well maybe you do, but you dont listen to it)

MS doing this is the same thing.

They are gambling that they will possibly make money after selling the xbox at a lost stupidly and now are bitching and moaning that they lost that gamble.

Aww.

Lets also not lose focus.
When a razor company sells you a razor, gambling that they will make money on the blades, do you see them trying to pass laws to make it illegal to do anything with their razor other than what they want?
There is a reason for this.

With MS it is no different. Yet they want to pass laws (and pretty much seems like they are going to get away with it)

If i was to buy an XboX, its MY hardware to do with as i please, which includes replacing your copyrighted software with myown.

Copyright does not mean im not allowed to delete your crap and use my own. Only that i cant give out your copyrighted code (Which noone doing these mods has any reason to do, nor should they if you still believe in copyright)

If i buy a book and feel like dipping each page in whiteout and using it as a diary, the book publisher cant say squat about it!
Nether can MS.

Then if you look at the REASON they sell the console at a lost, its even worse.
They only do that so they can actually compare in price to their competition!

Notice how macs dont charge prices similar to home build PCs? Yet they still sell? Its because the people that buy macs feel they are worth the extra money.
Is MS out right admitting noone would ever buy their xbox due to technology alone? Well, that wouldnt be surprising, but it seems even MS aggrees here, or they wouldnt NEED to sell it at a lost!

If their business plan includes losing money on a crappy hardware product which they want to control every aspect of after
Re:Woops, too late by flyneye · 2003-07-04 02:45 · Score: 3, Interesting

Aw c'mon punkin'.
I dont think anyone buys into the belief that if they purchase a tangible piece of equipment,that its still controlled by the whim of its creator.
No matter how many unread agreements they clicked,signed or were implied.
Put simply Microsoft is stupid for their "now you own it now you dont"business model.NO ONE and i mean NO ONE but anal lamers would agree let alone comply(remember this is the real world)
Best off if all remember: once i hand you the money and walk off with the merchandise,you have NO say so about what i do with it no matter how many lawyers you hire,no matter how many legislators you bribe.Its mine and if you want it back you better be able to fight with your hands.
That thought spent,I would also like to call up a lil history where wild bill gates sold mail order software for a "poplular electronics kit computer" and then stomped around and shook his fists when the code was copied and shared LONG BEFORE MICROCRAP EXISTED.Most people quit banging their head on a brick wall after the first strike but not a pinhead like Bill Gates!He instead makes a career out of flattening his pointy head.
So,with that in mind feel free to do whatever you like with whatever you bought and feel justified in knocking the teeth out of the losers who would play stupid games with IP.
Hey world i got news for you, if you want to keep IP secret,dont tell anyone,dont implement it and dont sell any examples.Anyone is allowed to make money from their ideas but like helium in a balloon,once its out,its out(no matter what non workable laws ignorant politicians write to increase their legacy.)
Damn,if only people would use common sense and their knowlege of people and the way the world is,instead of trying to force their unworkable fantasies of how it should be into effect.
In short:Screw Microsoft,we've no pity left for the bruise on his forehead.

--
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Re:Woops, too late by Geek+of+Tech · 2003-07-04 02:58 · Score: 5, Insightful

Did Parent actually read any of the articles? I believe in Free-X's statement said...
/* Beginning of quote */
Since our attempts to contact Microsoft have become public knowledge our team has been accused of attempting to extort or blackmail Microsoft, this is not true as we have made every attempt possible to make contact with Microsoft to offer the following:
- A complete summary of all hacking technologies (many of these technologies have not been released).
- Source Codes.
- All attacks which have been developed but not yet released.
- To sign a Non-disclosure Agreement regarding our discoveries.
- Further research on exploits, which would be exclusive to Microsoft.
- Full names of all hackers involved upon agreement of legal protection from Microsoft.
- Assistance in the development of future security for the XBox by working with Microsoft.
For the exchange, we were requesting but not demanding the following:
- Complete access to all documentation (chipsets, video etc.) to assist in developing a better Linux for the XBox.
- A signed Linux loader.
- Protection from Microsoft or support if any organisation/government attempted to prosecute members of our team.
- Refunding of the cost occured during the agreement period.
/* End of Quote */
I think the threat went more like You listen to us tell you about the security vulerability that would probably tick off content creators or we'll tell everyone else in hopes to get you to fix the code.
Do you get mad when someone discovers a flaw in Internet Explorer? Oh, but this is different, they're blackmailing Microsoft...
Once again quoting - "For the exchange, we were requesting but not demanding the following:... A signed Linux loader.
From Parent - Frankly, I don't see how Free-X would have felt that they were approaching MS in a reasonable way. They offered to give microsoft all the code and to sign a non-disclosure agreement. They requested in exchange a linux boot loader. They asked. They didn't say "Give us what we want that's not in your own best interests or we'll tell people how to break your machine and potentially lose more money by having people buy XBOXes for uses other than buying the games that make them money." The bootloader was optional. They would give Microsoft the code either way. Microsoft wouldn't even listen. So what part was unreasonable? Disclosing the code, because Microsoft wouldn't listen? People do that all the time. Asking for something in exchange for work? Oh yeah, that unreasonable. Especially when you relize they were just asking.

--
Stop the Slashdot effect! Don't read the articles!
Re:Woops, too late by Famatra · 2003-07-04 03:01 · Score: 5, Informative

Up the Mod of the parent since it is entirely correct.

They did not "blackmail", as the last Slashdot article ad-libbed in its summary, Microsoft but gave them every opportunity to cooperate in creating a signed Linux loader.

As well the released code by X-Free does not allow you to pirate games. (Although by modifying their release and using their same technique it could be.)

As well it must be remembered that there is no EULA for hardware, we are freely able to use hardware we bought anyway we choose to. As well, people are legally able to reverse engineer the hardware, much the same way that other game consoles (NES, SNES, N64, PSX) were reverse engineered to create emulators like BLEEM.

P.S. Remember that it is likely the computer you are using now (IBM-CLONE) would not be here without the work of people reverse engineering the original IBM desktop computers.
Re:Woops, too late by EvilAlien · 2003-07-04 03:17 · Score: 5, Insightful

As far as I'm concerned, the XBox is a "cheapy PC".
What are the odds of the courts saying the following to Microsoft?
"You sell your systems at a loss... that is a bad business decision, and it is not the court's responsibility to protect you from the consequences of your mistakes. Its a business gamble to rely on sale of an accessory to a product to make that business unit profitable. The consumer owns the product when purchased and has the right to decide how they use it, you are infringing on their rights but limiting that choice. We will not protect your poor business model."
In other words, "suck it up, princess".

--
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 03:28 · Score: 0

What are the odds of the courts saying the following to Microsoft?

To 99% of the businesses in the world, very good. To Microsoft, not a very good chance.
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 04:30 · Score: 1, Funny

could you expand a little?
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 04:31 · Score: 1, Funny

Nah, more like this.

Ah, Penny Arcade...
Re:Woops, too late by NormalVisual · 2003-07-04 04:42 · Score: 1

Xbox silent? Not mine. My $299 Wal-Mart machine is quieter than my Xbox - the hard disk in that little guy is quite noticable when it's running, and with only 32 MB of RAM and less than 10 gigs of disk space, it's not as usable as a general purpose PC.

I think people should be allowed to do whatever it is they want to with the hardware that they bought, but I just do not understand the appeal of an Xbox as a PC when there are better, cheaper alternatives.

--
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
Re:Woops, too late by tommertron · 2003-07-04 04:44 · Score: 0

Sure you can do whatever you want with something you own, but isn't it illegal to release information which can contribute to piracy of games? Isn't this the same as the DVD-Jon case?

--
Random rants about technology: http://technorants.blogspot.com
Re:Woops, too late by TheLastUser · 2003-07-04 04:52 · Score: 1

lose more money by having people buy XBOXes for uses other than buying the games

If MS had released a signed Linux loader, they could have SOLD that loader and, at the same time, prevented this exploit from impacting their game sales. I don't see how that would have lost them money.

However, their short sighted, knee jerk reaction, hacker == bad, has led them to a situation where they will lose game sales, probably insignificant Linux loader sales, and have to pour tons of cash into lawyers to get a dry judgement.

This disgusting thing is that MS will probably get these kids locked up simply for using something that, after all, they own in the first place. I'm not sure what the word "own" means in the context of the USA anymore.
Re:Woops, too late by renderhead · 2003-07-04 05:00 · Score: 3, Insightful

Actually, it seems to me more like:
"Spend money developing a solution that only a handful of 1337 h4x0r5 care about, or we'll release it ourselves at no cost to you. In fact, we'll make sure to put ourselves in a position that leaves us vulnerable to a lawsuit in the process so that you can collect money from us. All right now, we're waiting!"

Okay, so it wasn't blackmail, but only because the threat was really lame.

--
I wish that my inferiority complex were as good as yours.
-RenderHead
Re:Woops, too late by TheLastUser · 2003-07-04 05:00 · Score: 1

We will not protect your poor business model.

But isn't that exactly what the US courts DID DO in the antitrust case? Protect MS's poor business practises.
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 05:08 · Score: 0

Just because you can, or have the right to do something, does not instantly mean you should. Why does Xbox Live rule? No cheating. The only people who will be able to cheat will be the ones who do stuff like this. I can't wait to be called a cheater because I handily defeat people in MechAssault. They're won't be much point to using the service or the device then. Hooray for Linux!

And the up-side? You can use an Xbox as your file server now instead of an e-machine. Thanks.
Re:Woops, too late by Dajur · 2003-07-04 05:19 · Score: 1

actually it has 64megs of ram. And its DDR ram.
Re:Woops, too late by drinkypoo · 2003-07-04 05:40 · Score: 1

Not only that, but microsoft would actually get to make money on licensing fees with a signed linux loader, and if you released a new version, people would have to buy the new one, which could provide more revenue! Sounds like a perfect situation to me.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 06:28 · Score: 0

I agree completely...
Re:Woops, too late by Elm+Tree · 2003-07-04 07:07 · Score: 1

Sure, but once someone with some coding skills uses this as the basis for a simple mod-chip-less form of piracy microsoft starts losing money. Making it in their best interests to deal with those people.
Re:Woops, too late by Shippy · 2003-07-04 07:30 · Score: 1

When a razor company sells you a razor, gambling that they will make money on the blades, do you see them trying to pass laws to make it illegal to do anything with their razor other than what they want?

Actually, you may not see this on razors, but many products (like many aerosol cans and glass cleaners) do have a stipulation that states: "It is illegal to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling."

This is usually done to keep people from huffing it, snorting it, blowing it up, etc.

--
-Shippy
Re:Woops, too late by Shippy · 2003-07-04 07:44 · Score: 1

And why should we believe the Free-X posting? That's what they were claiming, but they have not offered any of the actual correspondence to the public as evidence. I really doubt it went the way as they claim in their post. I think they probably had a snippy attitude and demanded a signed linux bootloader, instead of asking for one. After all, that was their true goal.

If you closely follow the wording the quote the parent posted, they would have agreed to signing an NDA about their discoveries, but then would have only asked, but not demanded, to have a signed Linux loader. Yeah, right!

--
-Shippy
Re:Woops, too late by arkanes · 2003-07-04 07:51 · Score: 1

There's special laws about chemicals that require that labeling. It's why it's legal to sell fertilizer, but not to use it as a bomb. I wonder how useful a similar label on, say, DeCSS would be.
Re:Woops, too late by mitheral · 2003-07-04 07:59 · Score: 1

But note that the manufacture won't be taking you to court (as in a EULA case) but the goverment who has a specific law against using Lysol as a drug.
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 08:09 · Score: 0

If i buy a book and feel like dipping each page in whiteout and using it as a diary, the book publisher cant say squat about it!
Nether can MS.

It's not the same thing. Why would the book publisher care? The publisher would like it if you destroyed the original "software" contents of the book. That way, you can't lend it your buddy, he has to buy his own copy.
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 08:15 · Score: 1, Interesting

Tell him his job is pointless - but if he's a professional, he knows this already.

I'm holding the finished NGSCB crack (codenamed Judas) right now. Yes, it's early. No, you can't stop it working without changing the spec. And that's all I'm saying for now :)
Re:Woops, too late by madskills · 2003-07-04 08:20 · Score: 0

Okay, what is it that you don't understand about the definition of BLACKMAIL??

"2 a : extortion or coercion by threats especially of public exposure"

Either result is a negative hit to Microsofts bottom line (on a product that isn't making significant revenue to start with.) Really, my bleeding heart goes out to the college kiddies who feel victimized because they can't run Linux on their Xbox. Wait until they get real development jobs and people start hacking their work which brings home the bread.

WTF?
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 08:49 · Score: 0

boycotte them, that will make them change the eula right quick. Just boycotte them for 1 week to show them we actually do have the power, not them.
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 09:22 · Score: 0

yeah, that sounds more like what happend
Re:Woops, too late by BlackHawk-666 · 2003-07-04 10:36 · Score: 1

Silent and reasonably fast too. I benchmarked it serving up static web pages yesterday and it pulled 850 pages / second. That's nothing to be sniffed at. An attempt to FTP 20GB of data across showed it transferring 10MB/sec which is the total speed available from my 100mbit switch! I'm just now working on getting Mono and some other cool software on it to use it as a kick-ass server platform for fuck all cash.

--
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
Re:Woops, too late by Old+Wolf · 2003-07-04 10:51 · Score: 1

You may well own the hardware and a copy of the software it comes with, but you still don't own any intellectual property rights for either.

By creating a hardware or software modification you may be infringing on MS patents, copyrights, and/or software licences.

If it were a standard PC and you hacked some games that it came with on the harddrive, and re-released them, nobody would try to raise the defence 'I paid for these games so I can do what I like'.

I don't agree with what I've just said, of course, but there does seem to be a lot of leeway for the MS lawyer team to get stuck into.
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 11:10 · Score: 0

Wow. That comment kicks ass. Mod it up.
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 11:23 · Score: 0

The xbox has 64 MB of ram and a 733MHz Celeron !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re:Woops, too late by BlackHawk-666 · 2003-07-04 12:36 · Score: 1

When a person or company sells something for alot less than its worth, its called stupidity and stupid people deserve what they get.
Actually, it's called dumping, and it's illegal in some counries...like the US for instance, who are constantly accusing other countries of dumping. Double standards.

--
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
Re:Woops, too late by arcadum · 2003-07-04 12:51 · Score: 0

If I wasn't at -1 and had mod points I would give you a +5 interesting rant.
Re:Woops, too late by arcadum · 2003-07-04 12:56 · Score: 0

they also wanted to become MS employees, and continue to work on cracking the Xbox.
Re:Woops, too late by BlackHawk-666 · 2003-07-04 13:00 · Score: 1

Fuck it, I'd pay £45 for a GNU/Linux "game". They could put out a loader, charge for it like the filthy fuckers did for DVD playback, and just accept that people (few but some) want Linux on the XBox.

--
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
Re:Woops, too late by Crashmarik · 2003-07-04 13:45 · Score: 1

The failure of the argument lies in its primary assumption.

No one held a gun to Microsofts head and said sell the x-box below cost. Microsoft did this because it hopes to corner the tv set top box market much the way they cornered the OS and Office software market. Seeing as they couldnt compete on unused checklist features, or on real value for performance they decided to try and BUY that monopoly.

Whatever your opinion on Microsoft and copyright, Letting companies buy or create monopolies is not a good idea. An especially bad idea is letting companies create unregulated monopolies. Letting microsoft build yet one more monopoly is positively stupid. They don't have your interest at heart.

Anyway once I buy a device I have a right to put it to any legal use I see fit. Emphasis on the legal. The DMCA is a vile and deeply flawed piece of legislation but even that abortion does not seek to restrict people from using their property in novel ways.

The hackers apparently went to some trouble to contact microsoft, and wanted to make certain that their work wasn't used for illegal purposes. For whatever reason Microsoft didn't want to talk, most likely the epileptic fits the sight of a penguin causes in redmond. Thats their call.

I had no intention of buying an xbox. I have only installed 2 games in addition to the default ones on my pc. I just dont game that much. Now however, $170 for a dvd player that has internet access, will also play files from my PVR, I can run linux on, and play the occasional game with thats interesting.

No I will never ever under any circumstances use xbox live, I had AOL one big brother was enough. But I will have a nifty quiet small formfactor PC with good grapics and sound for a very good price.
Re:Woops, too late by anthony_dipierro · 2003-07-04 15:59 · Score: 1

He can do what ever he wants with the hardware once he has the sales receipt in his hand.

You're new here, aren't you? See, there's this law called the DMCA... Eh, nevermind, I'll let someone else explain it.
Re:Woops, too late by NanoGator · 2003-07-04 16:47 · Score: 1

"No one held a gun to Microsofts head and said sell the x-box below cost."

THe competition did.

--
"Derp de derp."
Re:Woops, too late by pixelpunk · 2003-07-04 17:14 · Score: 1

"P.S. Remember that it is likely the computer you are using now (IBM-CLONE) would not be here without the work of people reverse engineering the original IBM desktop computers." Rad.
Re:Woops, too late by Crashmarik · 2003-07-04 17:41 · Score: 1

LOL

Thank you for showing what greed can do.
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 18:27 · Score: 0

If learning isn't "illigal", why haven't you "tryed" to learn how to spell, "ya" know?

You make an anti-DMCA stance seem foolish by your ignorant proclamations.

Sorry to troll, but that was just too irritating to read without a comment.
Re:Woops, too late by Twanfox · 2003-07-04 18:36 · Score: 2, Insightful

What 'intellectual property rights' are you refering to that could be posessed? What rights are missing from patents and copyrights? Besides, are you seriously trying to say that smashing a device with a hammer violates a hardware patent? Notice, in this modification, the hardware was completely untouched, the case not even opened. The only thing in doubt is does this violate the DMCA (or other copyright laws). Only way I can see it could is 'circumvention of a copy protection system', and I'm not even sure that applies because the hack basically wipes and discards the software originally loaded in order to run something else, not make copies or gain access to protected material.
Re:Woops, too late by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 19:36 · Score: 0

If it were a standard PC and you hacked some games that it came with on the harddrive, and re-released them, nobody would try to raise the defence 'I paid for these games so I can do what I like'.
re-released them
That would be the problem, but you could do it for your own use.
Re:Woops, too late by RALE007 · 2003-07-04 19:39 · Score: 1

Right, we're completely free to do whatever we want in this country.
We can alter the hardware within an xbox to use it for other purposes than M$ intended.
Er wait, actually no we can't. Anyone offering hardware to "circumvent security" is in violation of the DMCA (mod chip anyone?). Not only are sellers of this equipment in breach of the law, but anyone describing how to "circumvent security" is in breach. Not to mention a person possessing the hardware or reference material on how to do it is in breach...
You never know if the DoJ may come after you for selling Mods, and lets not forget the wholeDeCSS fiasco. (Can I even say "DeCSS" without getting sued/imprisoned?).
Well ok, maybe if you're a mod reseller you might get someone after you. But nobody is going to care if you write "circumventive" software right? Nope, no trouble with the law there.
Of course it's not like I could reference you back to a million different slashdot articles showing how the DCMA makes it illegal to modify your own hardware.
Oh well, at least it's not like I can't yell at my xbox for being useless unless I want to do what M$ wants me to do with it.
Yep, land of the free baby... er, wait a minute, I'm screwed.
I just skimmed the articles I used for references, I apologize if I accidentally used any not pertinent to what I was talking about.

--
Beware blue cats moving at .99c
Re:Woops, too late by idiotnot · 2003-07-04 20:31 · Score: 1

Do you get mad when someone discovers a flaw in Internet Explorer? Oh, but this is different, they're blackmailing Microsoft...

Yes, yes it is. It's one thing to say, "we're going to release this flaw," or just outright releasing it. It's quite another to say, "we're going to release this unless you release a new version of IE for Unix."

Blackmail needn't involve cash.
Re:Woops, too late by jafuser · 2003-07-05 11:32 · Score: 1

you may be infringing on MS patents, copyrights, and/or software licences.

patents: Are they making duplicates of the Xbox hardware and reselling it?

copyright: Are they copying software off of the Xbox and sharing it with other people?

software licenses: Are they using licensed software to perform this hack?

--
Please consider making an automatic monthly recurring donation to the EFF
Re:Woops, too late by renderhead · 2003-07-08 04:34 · Score: 1

I refuse to believe that Microsoft releasing a signed version of Linux for the X-Box would prevent someone else from discovering the mod-chip-less piracy trick. These guys may have been the first, but having them sign an NDA is not going to keep the system safe from pirates.

--
I wish that my inferiority complex were as good as yours.
-RenderHead

After reading the articles... by RobPiano · 2003-07-03 17:47 · Score: 5, Interesting

It seems we've had a lot of false and misinterpreted information about this team and their exploit. I don't have an x-box and only somewhat understand why their exploit would work (integer underflow..?), but it atleast sounds interesting. Anyone on slashdot who gets it working please post a verification.

As far as the team... I think they should have submitted their findings to a legal firm of some kind instead of this not-so-holy covert behavior. Their behavior will only lead to troubles in court.

Atleast they'll have $100,000 to help them out, I think they'll need it.

Rob

Re:After reading the articles... by ziplux · 2003-07-03 17:56 · Score: 2, Insightful

How is releasing information about a bug going to land them in court? Microsoft had plenty of time to respond, but they didn't.
Re:After reading the articles... by Farrell · 2003-07-03 18:02 · Score: 4, Insightful

It's too bad they probably won't get the 100k. In order to get the files onto the xbox, you need to use a prior exploit that DOES require something(007 save, swapping HDD etc).

--
I want you to assume that all spelling and grammar errors are intentional. Thank You.
Re:After reading the articles... by Kaeru+the+Frog · 2003-07-03 18:02 · Score: 4, Informative

The DMCA. Circumventing a copyright protection system is illegal.
Re:After reading the articles... by RobPiano · 2003-07-03 18:05 · Score: 4, Insightful

> How is releasing information about a bug going to land them in court? Microsoft had plenty of time to respond, but they didn't.

You can sue over basically anything. They could bring them to court simply to say they thought their assertion of demands/requests resembled black mail. They have the weight/money/political connections to bring a very trivial detail into the court room.

You should never challenge a powerful company like this. Have a lawyer draft up all communications, keep complete records of all activies and communications within the group, and do not volunteer any information without council present.

Having help doesn't make you look guilty, it makes you look prepared and intellegent. The way these guys handled their communications (spelling errors and all) makes them look like out of control destructive teenagers.

Rob
Re:After reading the articles... by grahammm · 2003-07-03 18:13 · Score: 1, Interesting

How is putting hardware to a use not intended by the manufacturer "circumventing a coptright protection system"?
Re:After reading the articles... by Eyston · 2003-07-03 18:40 · Score: 5, Informative

why their exploit would work (integer underflow..?)

It looks at the file. The first four bytes are how big the file is, including its own size. So if the file is 16 bytes long, that is 4 bytes of the header and 12 bytes of data. That first four bytes reads 16.

So the XBox reads in the first four bytes (16), takes 4 away and then knows to look for 12 more bytes (16-4).

Apparently it uses those first four bytes (16) to allocate the memory. It then takes 4 away from that value (4 from 16 is 12) and reads those bytes (next 12) into memory.

Well, if you feed it 0..3 instead of 16 in that example, you get an underflow. It sees those first 0..3, takes away 4, and gets a very large number (whatever the maximum is, assume 8^4). So it then writes large amounts of YOUR data to memory even when only 0..3 bytes are allocated (or it is smart and will only do 4). So now you have YOUR own code/data in memory that isn't for that file.

I think. Fuck if I really know.

-Eyston
Re:After reading the articles... by smashr · 2003-07-03 18:42 · Score: 5, Informative

It's too bad they probably won't get the 100k. In order to get the files onto the xbox, you need to use a prior exploit that DOES require something(007 save, swapping HDD etc)

Not at all. You do not need to make any modifications to the hardware to use the 007 hack. If you have a memory card with the savegame on it, then you can simply copy that to the HD and load the game. This boots linux with an ftp server. You do NOT need to open the box or solder the pins; you only need to do that if you want to flash the TSOP and effectively mod the bios. Once you use the 007 trick you have temporary ftp access to the box - you can ftp over and replace the font files. Now the box is as good as modded and no one will know the difference. In addition this is safer than flashing the TSOP because the BIOS is simply intercepted in hardware.

So in short - you can have a completley modded xbox without ever opening the cover.
Re:After reading the articles... by ethx1 · 2003-07-03 18:43 · Score: 2, Insightful

Getting 007 from blockbuster is a lot cheaper than a mod chip tho.
Re:After reading the articles... by Kaeru+the+Frog · 2003-07-03 18:45 · Score: 4, Interesting

Because it could be used to circumvent copyright. Of couse anything could be used to circumvent copyright protection. That's only one of the reasons why the DMCA is a bad law and every time a case concerning it appears in court I hope it is the one that kills the DMCA.
Re:After reading the articles... by BiggerIsBetter · 2003-07-03 18:53 · Score: 5, Insightful

"You should never challenge a powerful company like this."

Nope. I gotta disagree with that.

I for one do NOT believe "powerful" aka rich companies shoudn't be challenged. Having money should not mean carte-blanch authority to steamroll customers over trivialities and the greater business community should be wary of any organisation that grows unchecked. It may be difficult (especially if the court is swayed by financial contributions) but powerful companies should ALWAYS be challenged.

--
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
Re:After reading the articles... by sheimers · 2003-07-03 18:57 · Score: 5, Insightful

Who cares about the DMCA. Most of the six billion world population lives outside the USA.
Re:After reading the articles... by Farrell · 2003-07-03 18:57 · Score: 1

Ah, ty, I seemed to remember it needed the soldering no matter what. So, I wonder if they really WILL get that 100k =/

--
I want you to assume that all spelling and grammar errors are intentional. Thank You.
Re:After reading the articles... by Antipop · 2003-07-03 19:06 · Score: 1

"Having help doesn't make you look guilty, it makes you look prepared and intellegent."

So does having a dictionary.
Re:After reading the articles... by s0meguy · 2003-07-03 19:07 · Score: 5, Insightful

The DMCA? Last time I checked American law wasn't a global thing.
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:10 · Score: 0

So if I add "copyprotected" on the label of a CD, does this mean I have released a copyproteced CD, and in that case is it against the (US) law to copy it? (There by going around the copyprotection).

Copy protection should be Copy protection, if the protection does not protect from anyone to copy it, they should be free to copy it. (Unless its under a Copyright!!!!). I could add a "copy protection" to a copyleft CD, couldnt I?
Re:After reading the articles... by rking · 2003-07-03 19:17 · Score: 3, Funny

Having help doesn't make you look guilty, it makes you look prepared and intellegent. The way these guys handled their communications (spelling errors and all) makes them look like out of control destructive teenagers.

I would have been interested in your opinion, but your spelling error made you sound like an out of control and destructive teenager. Okay, maybe one error means you could be in your twenties, posibly with some slight degree of control, but the destructive tendencies are undeniable. Could you submit a longer writing sample for analysis?
Re:After reading the articles... by wiggles · 2003-07-03 19:37 · Score: 5, Informative

Also from the DMCA:

(f) Reverse Engineering. -

(1)

Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title.
Re:After reading the articles... by fucksl4shd0t · 2003-07-03 19:40 · Score: 2, Funny

Who cares about the DMCA. Most of the six billion world population lives outside the USA.
They don't have computers. They're all pagan filth and terrorists.

--
Like what I said? You might like my music
Re:After reading the articles... by fucksl4shd0t · 2003-07-03 19:43 · Score: 4, Funny

Can't pass this one up. Emphasis mine.
I would have been interested in your opinion, but your spelling error made you sound like an out of control and destructive teenager. Okay, maybe one error means you could be in your twenties, posibly with some slight degree of control, but the destructive tendencies are undeniable. Could you submit a longer writing sample for analysis?
Enough said.

--
Like what I said? You might like my music
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:44 · Score: 1, Insightful

What copyright material is this protecting access to? If I want to run code which I have written, I own the copyright on it, so what copyright is being protected if I circumvent the sign checker and run the code?
Re:After reading the articles... by evilviper · 2003-07-03 19:45 · Score: 4, Insightful

It's very simple... According to the DMCA, you point at something and call it "copyright protection", and if anybody does anything to it, you sue them to holy hell.

Quite simple really.

For instance, if I was to make a CD that doesn't play, I will call it copy protected, meaning it works (because I say so) and you don't get your money back. Then, when someone figures out how to make it work, I sue them into submission.

It has other purposes as well. For instance, it can be very useful in extorting money, and bending people to your will.
You see, what you do is invent a copy protection scheme (we'll call it CSSS) and make it standard on some multimedia format (that we'll call DVDDs). Unfortunately, no copy protected device has ever gotten popular, so to make sure yours gets popular, you make CSSS so crappy that a 5-year old could break it. Now, your DVDD format will get popular, because people can all copy the DVDD discs.

Then, when anyone want's to make a DVDD player, they can't, unless they get permission to use CSSS from you. Before you allow them to use CSSS, you simply require a huge ammount of money, and force them to sign a contract saying they will do everything you tell them to, and include nothing extra on their CSSS players that you don't like.

Now, you are raking in the money, and you control the entire DVDDs player market, because the DMCA doesn't allow anyone to get around your crappy CSSS without your permission.

--
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Re:After reading the articles... by Skuld-Chan · 2003-07-03 19:48 · Score: 1

Good thing they live in Australia and are not subject to the DMCA.
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:59 · Score: 2, Interesting

..Circumvention only used for interoperability, which is allowed by DMCA.

Guess you didn't think of that before you vomitted up the troll label. Or maybe you're just "thick".
Re:After reading the articles... by hkmwbz · 2003-07-03 20:06 · Score: 1

These guys have circumvented hardware protection against running something else on the hardware? How can you copy hardware?

--
Clever signature text goes here.
Re:After reading the articles... by Ella+the+Cat · 2003-07-03 20:10 · Score: 0

Too cute I'm afraid. Context determines the need for appropriate quality spelling and grammar. A typo on slashdot is more acceptable than a typo in a formal context. It's reasonable to attempt to infer nationality from an ad-hoc analysis of English spelling and grammar - humans make similar guesses in many social situations, it's what they're good at.
Re:After reading the articles... by richy+freeway · 2003-07-03 20:17 · Score: 1

You just made my morning :D Good work fella!
Re:After reading the articles... by GunFodder · 2003-07-03 20:25 · Score: 2, Funny

Judging by the results of the Independence Day poll it looks like most of the Slashdot readership lives inside the USA. This gives the DMCA relevance. And if you think your backwater of the globe will never have any similar laws, think again. The future of property is ideas, and the rich and powerful need laws like the DMCA to protect their property.
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 20:27 · Score: 0

Speaking has had some experience with these issues, (i.e. http://features.slashdot.org/features/03/04/14/184 6250.shtml ) I must respectfully disagree. These companies can make your life most unpleasant very easily, and generally the cost and misery you'll be put through is just to great for it to be worth it the vast majority of the time.

I don't make a habit of crawling up against waterfalls unless death is the other option.
Re:After reading the articles... by More+Karma+Than+God · 2003-07-03 20:31 · Score: 4, Funny

> The DMCA? Last time I checked American law wasn't a global thing.

We're working on fixing that.

--
Go here to create your own Slashdot dis
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 20:50 · Score: 0

Holy shit man, who the fuck took the jam out of your donut today?
Re:After reading the articles... by BiggerIsBetter · 2003-07-03 21:02 · Score: 2, Insightful

I took that line slightly out of context - "like this" probably refers to the manner of the challenge, rather than companies like MS, but the point was made.

I hesitate to get started, but if sacrifices aren't made (like these guys getting toasted in court) then corporations and by extension, the governments they pay for, WILL walk all over the people. I hope the X-mod guys don't get fubared over extortion-type claims, but if they do, I think there will still be a greater benefit from pushing the point of "consumer" rights to use things they payed for - eg, an X-Box.

One thing I think they forget, is that away from work and outside their industry, they too are "consumers".

--
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 21:05 · Score: 1, Funny

Actually, judging by the results of the Independence Day poll it looks like Slashdot editors don't know enough Independance Days to make the poll slightly relevent for the 6 Billion odd of us whom it did not cover. That was one of the few polls I did not bother to vote in for example; the U.K does not actually have an "Independence Day".
Re:After reading the articles... by hplasm · 2003-07-03 21:18 · Score: 0, Offtopic

I'll bet it was the same one that sucked the cream out of my horn... *OO-er!!*

--
...and he grinned, like a fox eating shit out of a wire brush.
Re:After reading the articles... by staticdragon · 2003-07-03 21:25 · Score: 5, Funny

reread the article.
Austria != Australia
One is in Europe the others somwhere way the hell on the other side of the globe.
One has kangaroos, the other has... what the hell does Austria have, except apparently good hackers?
Re:After reading the articles... by BESTouff · 2003-07-03 21:28 · Score: 4, Funny

Having money should not mean carte-blanch authority
You're not from the US, are you ?
Re:After reading the articles... by MulluskO · 2003-07-03 21:35 · Score: 1

Wow, that's unusually clear. Must a user agree to a EULA before using the X-box for the first time? Also, whether or not this really falls under interoperability is questionable. Did this save DeCSS? DVDs are software and people wanted it to interoperate with Linux.

--

Too busy staying alive... ~ R.A.
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonvmous+Coward · 2003-07-03 21:37 · Score: 1

"So does having a dictionary."

The last IQ test I took didn't have a spelling section.
Re:After reading the articles... by darien · 2003-07-03 21:50 · Score: 5, Interesting

Actually, the EU seems to be heading in the opposite direction - while the US passes laws that make it easier for companies to get rich off individuals, the EU keeps issuing "statutory instruments" that make it progressively harder for businesses to enforce anything at all. And even if you are convicted of some sort of made up IP crime, you can always take the matter to the European Court of Human Rights, which pretty much always finds for the individual, because the EU Convention on Human Rights is a very broad and generous document.
Re:After reading the articles... by subtleluck · 2003-07-03 21:51 · Score: 1

i just HAD To say it, you made my day buddy, i was laughing my ass off when i read your comment. perhaps i should've been crying, but the sarcasm, and the satire, was just too funny.

it's a sad state of affairs.
Re:After reading the articles... by whaley · 2003-07-03 21:51 · Score: 1

mountains. lots of them.
Re:After reading the articles... by darien · 2003-07-03 21:53 · Score: 1

Wienerschnitzel.
Re:After reading the articles... by KAMiKAZOW · 2003-07-03 21:57 · Score: 5, Informative

Sadly this is not funny, it's true. There's the new Copyright Directive in the European Union and the USA is ''exporting'' the DMCA to other countries like Singapore.
Re:After reading the articles... by 1u3hr · 2003-07-03 21:59 · Score: 1

The DMCA. Circumventing a copyright protection system is illegal.
Since the hackers aren't Americans, and won't make Sklyarov's mistake of going there, it doesn't apply, unless GWB sends in the troops to take them off to Guantanamo Bay.
Re:After reading the articles... by usotsuki · 2003-07-03 22:07 · Score: 1

Yegads. -1, Insightful? Damn. Now I *have* seen it all.

-uso.

--
Dreams, dreams, don't doubt dreams, dreaming children's dreaming dreams. Sailor Moon SS
Re:After reading the articles... by jobeus · 2003-07-03 22:08 · Score: 2, Insightful

A Xerox machine _could_ be used to violate copyrights too... Does that make it illegal now under DMCA?
Re:After reading the articles... by ultraw · 2003-07-03 22:17 · Score: 1

But, they need the 007 hack (or something simular without hardware mods) to enable their exploit.

That would mean they would have to split the price money with the guys who discovered the 007 hack (don't know, it might even be the same group).

Well, $100k is a lot, they can split it up :)...
Re:After reading the articles... by tanguyr · 2003-07-03 22:22 · Score: 1

No, because it is made by the Xerox corporation. If you had invented it, well then, yeah, it would be. This is a simple game: whoever has the most lawyers wins. /t

--
#!/usr/bin/english
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 22:24 · Score: 1, Insightful

American patent laws are one of the first things "Free Trade" agreement countries are suppose to adhere to (ironic considering it is so obviously a broken system and coopted legislation at it's worst). I'm sure clauses about laws like the DMCA will be in future agreements).
Re:After reading the articles... by chthon · 2003-07-03 22:27 · Score: 1

Sachertorte und Bier
Re:After reading the articles... by mothrathegreat · 2003-07-03 22:35 · Score: 1

I reckon there's a point in this, what would happen if Microsoft started manufacturing soylent green?
Somewhere someone has to put their foot down and make a stand, no matter how unpleasant they could make your life.

--
Extended Warranty? How can I lose!
Re:After reading the articles... by Khazunga · 2003-07-03 22:37 · Score: 1

Ski!
Although I'm not rich enough to travel there, and just ski in the Pyrenees.

--
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
Re:After reading the articles... by Ciderx · 2003-07-03 22:38 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Adolf Hitler
Re:After reading the articles... by Marlor · 2003-07-03 22:44 · Score: 1

what the hell does Austria have, except apparently good hackers?

Kommissar Rex!
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 22:52 · Score: 0

NOOO! NOOHOHOHOHO! PLEASE! Not Kommissar REX!! That's just cruel. Couldn't you come up with something positive?
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 23:04 · Score: 0

May I ask what country you are from that can not distinguish between a small mountainy country in central Europe with an entire continent on the other side of the planet.

My question is serious. I do not want my kids to go the the same shools and the same school systems as yourself.
Re:After reading the articles... by paganizer · 2003-07-03 23:08 · Score: 1

Oh, come on.
They Know we won the Cold War.
They Know we are taking over the rest of the world a little bit at a time (we can't afford not to, the economy requires it).
They know that our laws apply to them, but the reverse is only true if it serves our interests.

Just leave 'em alone.

--
Why, yes, I AM a Pagan Libertarian.
Re:After reading the articles... by henrygb · 2003-07-03 23:09 · Score: 1

Austria != Australia
The Austrians seem to have been talking to ZDNet Australia. Perhaps they were also confused.
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 23:19 · Score: 0

Arnold Schwarzenegger, apparently the Terminator V1 was covered by the DMCA as well. I didnt stop people from modifying the firmware to obtain a more user friendly version later on, however ...
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 23:22 · Score: 0

Austria != USA
Re:After reading the articles... by am+2k · 2003-07-03 23:25 · Score: 1

Mozart, Salzburg, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra
Re:After reading the articles... by gilesjuk · 2003-07-03 23:25 · Score: 1

It's not a copyright system, it's a license verification system. It tests that the disc you have inserted is licensed and approved by Microsoft.

The exploit provided will not allow you to boot pirate games, they have been very cafeful not to allow this. Of course this will be done by those will no ethics as a result, but this is why they wanted an authorised Linux loader.
Re:After reading the articles... by Boltronics · 2003-07-03 23:37 · Score: 1

I thought Australia was responsible for Samba and Enlightenment? Doesn't that make them good hackers too?

--
It's GNU/Linux dammit!
Re:After reading the articles... by DrSkwid · 2003-07-03 23:39 · Score: 1

presumably Snowy Mountains

--
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 23:45 · Score: 0

Arnold Swatzenager (renamed to Konold after joined KDE).

"I'll be back"
Re:After reading the articles... by 00_NOP · 2003-07-03 23:45 · Score: 1

We don't all live in the US. Tough luck if your Congress wants to prove King Cnut wrong!
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 23:48 · Score: 1, Insightful

> The DMCA? Last time I checked American law wasn't > a global thing.

You might want to check with Iraq and Afghanistan on that.
Re:After reading the articles... by Dalcius · 2003-07-04 00:04 · Score: 1

I might be reading this wrong, but it seems that this would allow one to examine the Microsoft digital signing code. Circumventing that code to run Linux isn't, in my book, for the purpose of exploring the system. Throw in the rest of the DMCA which is very broadly worded, and you've got yourself a violation of trying to 'circumvent copyright protection technologies.'

Can someone correct me?

--
~Dalcius
Rome wasn't burnt in a day.
Re:After reading the articles... by Hi_2k · 2003-07-04 00:12 · Score: 1

This is an exception, so none of the rest of the DMCA applies to it (unless this exception has excetions, which it may well). Also, you are circumventing the copy protection so that you may have something new that is interoperable with the HARDWARE and BIOS.

--
When life gives you crap, Make Crapade.
Sluggy Freelance.
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 00:13 · Score: 0

white supremacists
Re:After reading the articles... by samhalliday · 2003-07-04 00:13 · Score: 1

Their behavior will only lead to troubles in court.
the DRM-breaking-gizmo stuff is protected by the DMCA, which is only viable in american courts. this guy (at least) is german, and they can't touch him. its not piracy, so they they can't even get him in that.
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 00:15 · Score: 0

yeah, there is a shrink-wrap EULA on the xbox box. so I guess buy used?
I think the court will probably reverse itself on DeCSS eventually. it's a pretty clear case of reverse-engineering for interoperability.
Re:After reading the articles... by Joey+Vegetables · 2003-07-04 00:54 · Score: 1

The Constitution does not give the fedgov power to declare any essentially private behavior "illegal," and all "laws" contrary to the Constitution are null and void. The DMCA is unconstitutional on its face - it openly contradicts the 1st Amendment. Hence, it is null and void, and, therefore, circumventing copyright protection in and of itself is NOT illegal.

The criminals masquerading as a "government" in our screwed-up society may consider it illegal, and you may have to pretend to respect their opinion for the time being, since they might put you in jail or kill you if you don't. But that doesn't make it right.

Also, if you are circumventing copy protection in order to defraud another person or company, this is certainly wrong, and possibly illegal as well - not because of the DMCA, but because of the natural rights of the person or entity you are defrauding, and because there are valid laws at the state level (and in other nations) to address this behavior.

But please do not make the mistake of thinking that something is "illegal" just because the fedgov says so. 99.9% of the time, it isn't.

See www.constitution.org.

--

Nonaggression works!
Re:After reading the articles... by Ben+Hutchings · 2003-07-04 01:02 · Score: 1

Yes, that's right. It will ask the OS to read just under 4GB of data from the file, which will result in reading the whole of the rest of the file into a buffer that's only a few bytes in size (the heap manager probably rounds up the 0-3 bytes to a minimum of 8 bytes). The result is that other parts of the heap get overwritten. Quite how this can reliably be exploited, I don't know.
Re:After reading the articles... by mpe · 2003-07-04 01:14 · Score: 1

The Constitution does not give the fedgov power to declare any essentially private behavior "illegal," and all "laws" contrary to the Constitution are null and void. The DMCA is unconstitutional on its face - it openly contradicts the 1st Amendment. Hence, it is null and void, and, therefore, circumventing copyright protection in and of itself is NOT illegal.

The problem is that until the US Supreme court decides a law is unconsitutional it tends to be treated as valid. Wonder what happens if anyone was punished under a law subsequently found to be unconsitutional.
There is also something of a big loophole in that nothing apparenly prevents the US Congress from passing laws blatently against the US Constitution.
Re:After reading the articles... by The+Only+Druid · 2003-07-04 01:20 · Score: 1

Their website states that after an interview with a Microsoft person who insinuated that EA was "stupid" for allowing the 007 exploit, this team released a parallel exploit for Microsoft's own MechWarrior. As such, it would seem that they could first use their own MechWarrior exploit, then this [overflow exploit]. Guess they wont need to share the money.

--
"Stumble before you crawl"
Re:After reading the articles... by Joey+Vegetables · 2003-07-04 01:28 · Score: 1

Exactly. Although the Constitution nowhere says so, the Supreme Court apparently has been given the almost unquestioned authority to be the "last word" on the Constitutionality of a law. It takes very, very few cases. Even if it wanted to strike down all the unconstitutional "law" on the books, it would take millenia. And so far it has shown very little inclination to do so in most situations.

People sometimes have been freed after "laws" they were convicted under were struck down, but it is not a common thing.

--

Nonaggression works!
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 01:41 · Score: 0

OK I'm an idiot but what does "0..3" mean?

0123?
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 01:44 · Score: 0

Yes unfortunatly you are. We all (well, I don't know about american media, they tend to cover up for the government, rather than expose them as they do here in Europe (not counting Italy of course))know by now that that the WOD-issue with Irque was a hoax.

I still think that chasing Sadam away was good, but...

How long will it take 'till the Sovi^h^h^h^h america n tanks roll into Norway in pursuit of justice in the christian, holy war agains deCSS?
Re:After reading the articles... by mdielmann · 2003-07-04 01:54 · Score: 1

Don't worry. The way things are going, soon he won't be able to tell the difference.

--
Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 02:07 · Score: 0

Lloyd Christmas: That's a lovely accent...New Jersey?
Lady at bus stop: It's Austrian.
Lloyd Christmas: Austria! Well, then. G'day mate! Let's put another shrimp on the barbie!
Lady at bus stop: Let's not.
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 02:09 · Score: 0

Is this not the reasoning behind the 2nd Amendment - so that the (armed) populous are able to keep an oppressive government in check? So, the latest anti-terrorism laws are also unconstitutional as they violate the 2nd Amendment.
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 02:13 · Score: 2, Interesting

This might sound off-topic, but I am reminded of the FCC and its recent ruling in favor of giving the most powerful media companies even greater monopoly power. (Most Americans aren't even aware that Colin Powell's son heads the FCC.) The problem has even gotten to the point that the media was powerful and arrogant enough to censor anti-war broadcasts. Remember also when Dan Rather granted Saddam an interview just before this second war, but this so bothered a White House staff bent on coercive social engineering that they blitzed every major TV station with broadcasts of the Pres.

One just gets the feeling that more and more, law and government are in bed with the largest conglomerate corporations to control and screw the lowly individual. That is what unchecked capitalism brings, and what we are trying to force upon the entire world.
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 03:06 · Score: 0

The fact they tried to contact Microsoft is going to be in their favor when it goes to court. The DMCA makes provisions for this. If it goes to court, they have a good chance of winning.
The fact they are not in the US should ideally give them a free ticket.
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 03:12 · Score: 0

"One has kangaroos, the other has... what the hell does Austria have, except apparently good hackers?"

Nazi gold
Re:After reading the articles... by filledwithloathing · 2003-07-04 04:08 · Score: 1

the U.K does not actually have an "Independence Day".
Maybe that's because most countries Independence Days celebrate throwing off the chains of Brittish Tyranny. I'm under the impression in fact that there are a rather large number people in Ireland who are still waiting to their future Independence Day from the UK.

--
Are you a VF grad? Check out the VFMA Alumni Forums VFMA Alumni Forum
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 04:16 · Score: 0

OK I'm an idiot but what does "0..3" mean?

0,1,2,3
Re:After reading the articles... by pla · 2003-07-04 05:44 · Score: 1

You can sue over basically anything.

Yup. But a civil suit does not result in a "conviction", merely a transfer of money (and sometimes an order to stop doing something, kinda irrelevant at this point for this exploit).

You should never challenge a powerful company like this

You left out the word "directly" at the end. Unfortunately, the prize of $100k has clouded this team's judgement. If not for that, the still would have worked toward the same goal, reached it, and could have released their underflow bug discovery in complete anonymity.

Glory has its place. Money has its place. Putting corporate America in ITS place does not safely involve obtaining either of them. Personally, I would have taken a road trip a few hundred miles away (via public transportation paid for in cash), visited a public library (one that doesn't check IDs to use a computer, ie, most of them), and posted the exploit to as many sites as possible over the course of an hour. Then go back home and keep my mouth shut. Presto, all the fun and none of the liability, and Microsoft could go pound sand for all they could do to me.

People need to decide their objective... Making the world better, or becoming an alterna-celebrity. The Open Source movement pretends toward the first, yet somehow produces quite a few of the latter.
Re:After reading the articles... by xenocide2 · 2003-07-04 06:14 · Score: 1

In a more formal math notation, [0,3]. Or for those familiar with the old New Math, {0, 1, 2, 3}. Or in plain english, a number between 0 and three. In summary, yes, you are an idiot. =)

--
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 06:15 · Score: 0

...what the hell does Austria have, except apparently good hackers?...
St. Anton, Snowboarders paradise on earth
Re:After reading the articles... by panxerox · 2003-07-04 07:04 · Score: 1

It dosent allow you to access anothers "works" this info allows you to replace another "works" useing a feature "bug", in that persons code.

--
"It's so convenient to have a system where everyone is a criminal" - A. Hitler
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 07:15 · Score: 0

"Austria != Australia
One is in Europe the others somwhere way the hell on the other side of the globe.
One has kangaroos, the other has... what the hell does Austria have, except apparently good hackers?"

The most noteworthy thing about Austria is that the bagel was first invented in Austria. During the invasion of the Turkish Janizary ("Die Janitscharen") the Austrians first came into contact with a modern stirrup used by the turkish cavalry. The stirrups were called "Bugels" and a local baker at some point during the war invented bugelbrot ("stirrup bread"). It was in the shape of a stirrup, which is to say approximately toroidal bread. The rest, as they say, is history.

There are many other cool facts about Austria, but that's the one I always use at parties to impress people.
Re:After reading the articles... by LinuxGeek · 2003-07-04 07:20 · Score: 1

Wow, I hadn't thought of it this way yet. If you only need an xbox and MS MechWarrior to get this expliot into place, then MS does deserve a share of the $100,000 prize.

--

Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
Re:After reading the articles... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 07:38 · Score: 0

Um, you DO realize that the parent was referring to the METHOD in which said powerful company was challenged, don't you? There's far better ways to "stick it to the man" and NOT looking a fucking idiot in the process.

If you're going to screw the system at least have the common decency to learn to cover your ass while you're at it.
Re:After reading the articles... by metacell · 2003-07-08 09:38 · Score: 1

I presume you mean 2^8^4, ie 256^4.

Full text of article in case of /. effect by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 17:47 · Score: 2, Informative

Official statement from Free-X regarding exploits.
Dear Public,

Today is a very said day for Microsoft.

One month ago, we began an attempt to make contact with Microsoft, we did this because the first software only mod-chip solution was developed and proved working. This solution meant that there was no need to open the XBox anymore.

The modification only needs to be installed once and all existing XBox consoles are able to be modified to use this exploit, only new consoles with an updated Firmware could lock out this exploit.

After discovering this exploit a Team was formed known as the "Free-X (box)" team.

Members of this team have made many attempts to initiate discussions with Microsoft by various means including:

1. Contacting certified XBox game developers requesting that they contact Microsoft to facilitate discussions about our discoveries.
2. Contacting major web-based news sources requesting that they contact Microsoft on our behalf.
3. Direct contact with various Microsoft departments globally.
4. Direct contact with Authorised XBox distributors globally.

Since our attempts to contact Microsoft have become public knowledge our team has been accused of attempting to extort or blackmail Microsoft, this is not true as we have made every attempt possible to make contact with Microsoft to offer the following:

- A complete summary of all hacking technologies (many of these technologies have not been released).
- Source Codes.
- All attacks which have been developed but not yet released.
- To sign a Non-disclosure Agreement regarding our discoveries.
- Further research on exploits, which would be exclusive to Microsoft.
- Full names of all hackers involved upon agreement of legal protection from Microsoft.
- Assistance in the development of future security for the XBox by working with Microsoft.

For the exchange, we were requesting but not demanding the following:

- Complete access to all documentation (chipsets, video etc.) to assist in developing a better Linux for the XBox.
- A signed Linux loader.
- Protection from Microsoft or support if any organisation/government attempted to prosecute members of our team.
- Refunding of the cost occured during the agreement period.

To prove our discoveries we offered to make available an exploited dashboard for Microsoft to validate our claims.

Our team was more than willing to co-operate with Microsoft and would have most likely accepted most of the terms of agreement coming from our discussions.

If Microsoft had agreed to sign Linux then it would have been possible to generate a signature for the Linux, which would only work on current XBox consoles and able to be stopped in future revisions. It would also be possible to prevent the illegal use of pirated software.

Our team was of the belief that our attempts to initiate discussions with Microsoft would have been welcomed.

Members of our team contacted Microsoft quickly, but then suddenly Microsoft ceased responding to our enquiries. Third parties contacting Microsoft on our behalf also proved to lead to a dead end, is the giant Microsoft's reaction just incompetence or intentional??

Following the public release of this request for communication on the ZDNet/CNet network, Microsoft promised a formal response and as yet we have not seen one.

Is it possible that Microsoft's lack of co-operation in this matter could be because they believe that:

1. Mod-chips are good for business as they increase the sales of the console hardware and that they see them as an important part of there business model.
2. The Exploit can be fixed in future software updates.
3. This is purely a hoax.

A team member called a Microsoft representative again (Mr. Thomas Kritsch of Austria) and offered a presentation.

This presentation was scheduled for 20th June, but Microsoft cancelled it on 19th June. During a phone discussion on this day Mr Kritsch a

Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by jeffkjo1 · 2003-07-03 18:01 · Score: 5, Funny

There's definitely a big risk of zdnet going down, as it's hosted by a 14 year old with a 333 running Apache in console mode (Win98sr2) on a dsl connection and all...
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by Angry+Pixie · 2003-07-03 18:07 · Score: 5, Interesting

Actually, it is blackmail. Several of the things they request do have a quantifiable monetary value to them, and to others in similar situations. This includes the creation of an authorized product, refund of costs incurred, legal indemnification, and access to product designs and specs. It doesn't matter if they're willing to sign an NDA. Blackmail isn't limited to just the "give me X dollars or I will do something nasty you won't like." Any argument that Microsoft won't be harmed financially due to the release of this exploit is weak because Microsoft doesn't have to show actual financial damages from this. But that's just the civil suit. These guys will have more to worry about from the Justice Department in the criminal case.

This is not a step forward for the Linux community. It is an embarassing set back that could further strengthen arguments against using Linux and supporting the Linux community. It's just damn irresponsible of them.
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:28 · Score: 0, Flamebait

consent of the Linux community

How the fuck are you supposed to get the consent of a group of people who can't even agree on which desktop is best and will fork code at the drop of a hat? It is easier to herd cats.
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by ethx1 · 2003-07-03 18:49 · Score: 1

Errr.. this is NOT the ZDNet article. This is from the FreeX website and it was /.ed by the time I got there.
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by davmoo · 2003-07-03 18:56 · Score: 1

Dammit...I had moderator points at the beginning of the week. I wish I still had some. Your post should be moded up to the top and be required reading.

--
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by NanoGator · 2003-07-03 19:01 · Score: 1

"Today is a very said day for Microsoft."

Is it? Now MS has an entity to go after, plus evidence of attempted blackmail. Kudos. Way to set the mod community back.

--
"Derp de derp."
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by abradsn · 2003-07-03 19:09 · Score: 2, Interesting

Pointing out that we are infringing on one copyright agreement in order to perpetuate Linux interests is a bad move. The Linux community should desire to keep away from negative aggressive behavior, less we become more like our adversary.
Also, should we not leave the bully (ie. blackmail) tactics to those inside the corporate sphere?
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by David+at+Eeyore · 2003-07-03 19:12 · Score: 1

Assuming that the group concerned have been able to do what they claim, (now testable by others) and that Microsoft (who, it should be pointed to those posters from the US is only a corporation - not a sovereign state) have ignored them, would it not be worthwhile to see what the results of the tests are and allow a bit more time for MS to consider its position. Perhaps MS is biding its time, like IBM in the SCO affair. Many insults are hurled at both Open Source and MS; they don't help the cause of either camp.

--
"Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups" seen on someone's blog...
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by irc.goatse.cx+troll · 2003-07-03 19:12 · Score: 1

Thats all fun and good until MS decieds zdnet needs to remove the story. never hurts to have a local copy here just incase.

--
Pain lasts, kid. Its how you know you're alive. Sometimes I think this growing up thing is just pain management-TheMaxx
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by jmv · 2003-07-03 19:22 · Score: 1

Assuming what their exploit is legal, I don't think it's really blackmail. It's more about "help us run Linux or we'll just do it ourself".

--
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by etcpasswd · 2003-07-03 19:54 · Score: 1

It's more about "help us run Linux or we'll just do it ourself"
Doh! In your own words, what else is it but blackmail? Why the fuck is MS obligated to help run Linux on it?
IANAL, but how can such exploit be legal? If your door lock is easy to tamper with, is it implicitly legal for me to break in?
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by Alsee · 2003-07-03 20:22 · Score: 5, Interesting

how can such exploit be legal? If your door lock is easy to tamper with, is it implicitly legal for me to break in?

It is perfectly legal for you to "tamper" and "break in" if it's a lock on YOUR OWN DOOR. It doesn't matter if Microsoft built the lock, you bought the house.

The people using the exploit are using in on a machine THEY OWN. They can do anything they like with it. They can smash it with a sledgehammer or toss it in a blast furnace and vaporize the sucker. Of COURSE they can "pick the lock".

-

--
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by Angry+Pixie · 2003-07-03 20:28 · Score: 1

How the fuck are you supposed to get the consent of a group of people who can't even agree on which desktop is best and will fork code at the drop of a hat? It is easier to herd cats.

The answer is, you don't. You should not realistically expect any business to fork over its product designs and specs, and greenlight reverse-engineering performed by a third-party. If you are going to release the exploit, just do it; but don't try to turn it into a financial windfall. True, the letter did not specifically mention a request for payment; but you can be assured that these guys expected compensation down the line whether it be in the form of hush money, royalties, or high karma within the Linux community.

I have never heard of anyone *asking* for permission to release an exploit to a Microsoft technology before. It seems that these kids foresaw potential criminal or civil trouble, in which case, they should have had the sense NOT to strongarm Microsoft.
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 20:38 · Score: 0

It will be my xbox once I bought it. I can do whatever I want with it. I have disassembled enough toy cars when I was a child. No one sued me back then. Stop using this break YOUR house which is actually MY house analog.
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by Angry+Pixie · 2003-07-03 20:45 · Score: 1

It would surely be worthwhile to see what happens, but we can always make educated predictions.

I've just read over the original statement again, and I notice yet another statement that troubles me:

The software companies who are developing titles for the XBox should be very worried by the lack of protection that Microsoft is offering their work as exploits such as those found by our team pose a serious threat to potential sales due to the possible use of such exploits for software piracy.

Here, the group have described the exploit as a security problem in XBox that would have potential problems for developers. I hope the techies in this forum can enlighten me, but I do not see how the group's exploit is a proof of concept that the XBox has serious security flaws that can be taken advantage of for software piracy. What I see is a group of kids who are attempting to mask their rather selfish activities under the guise of consumer and developer protection. As I understand it, software on the XBox is no more "protected" that any other DVD in the hands of a pirate with a DVD burner. Am I mistaken or misreading anything in this?
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 20:46 · Score: 0

Score:+5, Fact

This isn't flamebait. The truth hurts, doesn't it?
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by bace · 2003-07-03 20:53 · Score: 1

LOL
For the exchange, we were requesting but not demanding the following:
- Complete access to all documentation (chipsets, video etc.) to assist in developing a better Linux for the XBox.
We just broke into your house, so can we have the key now?
LOL

--
=If life was easy, i would be out of a job=
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by jwilson · 2003-07-03 21:17 · Score: 2, Informative

Mirrored all three links:

full-disclosure

zdnet

statement

Be kind. Rewind.

Laren
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by lga · 2003-07-03 22:09 · Score: 1

We just broke into your house, so can we have the key now?

Not quite. It's more like "We just broke into our house that you built for us, so can we have the key now?"

--
A latent existence
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by 1u3hr · 2003-07-03 22:13 · Score: 3, Insightful

We just broke into your house, so can we have the key now?
We just broke into OUR OWN house that we bought from you, and found that your lock is very easy to pick. We can help you to improve the lock....
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by Troed · 2003-07-03 22:31 · Score: 1

You can't make a copy of an Xbox game and play in an Xbox without modifying the Xbox first. Previously you had to solder in a hacked BIOS - with this hack no soldering is necessary, you don't even have to open up the Xbox.

--
it's in my head
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 22:55 · Score: 0

The one you bought from us, knowing full well that you were not permitted to break into it? Fuck right off.
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 23:06 · Score: 0

Breaking the signing restriction is NOT infringing copyright.
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by Daniel+Phillips · 2003-07-03 23:26 · Score: 2, Insightful

This is not a step forward for the Linux community. It is an embarassing set back that could further strengthen arguments against using Linux and supporting the Linux community. It's just damn irresponsible of them.

Indeed. But let's not miss the irony of Microsoft complaining about what they perceive as an attempt to blackmail them, when it's a matter of record that Microsoft has regularly used similar tactics or worse in carrying out their own business. Three words: "knife the baby".

Pot. Kettle. Black.

--
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by EzInKy · 2003-07-04 00:09 · Score: 1

The one you bought from us, knowing full well that you were not permitted to break into it?

That's right...it only makes sense that the seller can tell the new owner who can enter his new house.

--
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 07:46 · Score: 0

I am all for Linux running on everything. But, what will people do with unsigned code on a game console? I think that they will play unsigned games. It can cost 5 million dollars to produce a cool game. I think that spending $40 on a game is worth it if we want to keep having some great blockbuster games coming our way. If we want Linux to become mainstream in bussinesses, then shouldn't we try and be more friendly towards businesses. Why couldn't a developer get a license agreement with Microsoft and then produce a distrobution that plays on the XBox and is signed? Microsoft has been friendly towards licensing practices in the past. Just a thought.
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by Angry+Pixie · 2003-07-04 11:19 · Score: 1

Oh the irony is delicious! I'll admit that these kids have some titanium balls to want to take on Microsoft on its own turf and using its own tactics. Maybe for an encore they'll say something bad about Mike Tyson's mother.

But alas, Microsoft has the legal competence and financial resources to massage complicated economic/legal floodgate issues to their benefit, all in the name of free enterprise. When Microsoft writes out its threats, it leaves a nice safety net just in case. This group however lacks such resources.
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by Angry+Pixie · 2003-07-04 11:28 · Score: 1

God, if I could only use those points in my next team eval at work!
Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 05:02 · Score: 0

Or, this entire analogy is fucking dumb so you should probably drop it.

Typical by coolmacdude · 2003-07-03 17:47 · Score: 2, Insightful

Free-X say they had been trying to contact MS for a month but were ignored, which is why they've released the exploit.

MS before: Screw them, we haven't got time to deal with annoying flies on the wall like that.

MS after: Shut up! Sue them! This kind of thing is why we hate open source. They want to take our intellectual property and turn it into an experimental plaything.

--

-You may license this sig for only $6.99.

Re:Typical by mausmalone · 2003-07-03 19:28 · Score: 4, Interesting

even though I have no stake in this, I've gotta admit that I'm really disappointed in these guys. Normally, they'd only have to worry about the DMCA. Hacking an unshared system you own is not a crime in any way. Telling people about your experiences isn't either. The only concern is that this technology can circumvent systems designed to enforce copyrights, thereby making it a violation of the DMCA. It does have significant legal uses, and is only presented in such a manner.

Then they go and do this whole threaten/blackmail/extortion thing... doesn't really paint them in a good light. They'd be able to really champion this cause, if they didn't have to go and act like a bunch of script kiddies. Getting Linux on the X-Box without any hardware hacks is an amazing accomplishment, worthy praise and acknowledgement. Unfortunately, anyone who reports on this is gonna focus on the offensive stance they took and paint them as menaces.

And before I complain about them having egos anymore, I should digress and say that if I was good enough to hack an x-box with just software, I'd be pretty self-assured, too.

--
-=-=-=-=-=
I'd rather be flamed than ignored.
Re:Typical by evilviper · 2003-07-03 19:34 · Score: 2, Interesting

MS after: Shut up! Sue them! This kind of thing is why we hate open source. They want to take our intellectual property and turn it into an experimental plaything.

Then next time, don't demand a Linux loader, demand a FreeBSD loader... They are always saying how much they love the BSD license, and they have a track record of using FreeBSD themselves. Then they couldn't use that arguement at all.

--
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Re:Typical by EzInKy · 2003-07-04 00:17 · Score: 1

even though I have no stake in this, I've gotta admit that I'm really disappointed in these guys. Normally, they'd only have to worry about the DMCA. Hacking an unshared system you own is not a crime in any way. Telling people about your experiences isn't either. The only concern is that this technology can circumvent systems designed to enforce copyrights, thereby making it a violation of the DMCA.

No, it doesn't. It only allows the X-Box owner to put what code he pleases on the machine. The creator of the program that circumvents the copyright is the one who would be violating the DMCA.

--
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.

Watch out for the secret weapon. by Roosey · 2003-07-03 17:47 · Score: 5, Funny

Trust me, these guys will go down for the count if Microsoft hires a female lawyer.

Re:Watch out for the secret weapon. by sc00p18 · 2003-07-03 20:36 · Score: 2, Funny

that may be tough, I don't know many women who would work for this guy.

Why don't they fix the exploit? by hashish · 2003-07-03 17:48 · Score: 2, Funny

Ohh, wait, no-body applies security patches to game boxes, what was I thinking :)

Re:Why don't they fix the exploit? by Student_Tech · 2003-07-03 17:52 · Score: 3, Informative

Actually, they update the dashboard (what the exploit plays with) when you install the Xbox Live stuff, they could just set it up to do that when someone connects to Live, or on major game release have it auto-check and offer to update it.

At least this is my understanding (and yes the Live stuff does play around with the dir structure on the Xboxes I have seen.)
Re:Why don't they fix the exploit? by Babbster · 2003-07-03 18:43 · Score: 2, Informative

You're right about the Xbox Live changes to the dashboard, and there are more coming with Xbox Live "2.0" that's been announced. Then, you've got their music visualization/media player program (Music Mixer) which is very likely going to make some changes to the dashboard.
Of course, even beyond all that is the fact that every time you activate a connection to Xbox Live, it checks the XBL software and updates it if there have been any changes. It would be a trivial matter for them to use this feature to either incorporate a check to detect/disable the hack and /or implement a security fix to do the same even if the hack isn't already in use.
The moral of the story? Probably not a good idea to use Xbox Live if you intend on using this particular exploit.
The secondary moral? Microsoft really was thinking ahead when they decided to go with their own closed service for "all" (quotes added to acknowledge XBConnect, Gamespy Tunnel and the rest which use the system link functionality to get people hooked up over the net) online games.
Re:Why don't they fix the exploit? by Alsee · 2003-07-03 21:13 · Score: 5, Interesting

Actually, they update the dashboard (what the exploit plays with) when you install the Xbox Live stuff

Any attempt to update the XBOX is merely a request from an outside source for the XBOX to update itself. But once you have control of the XBOX you can program it to ignore that request to update itself.

When you connect to XBOX Live they check to see what version you are running, but all they can find out is what the XBOX tells them. If you control the XBOX you can have it tell them anything you like.

They are going to run into the exact same problem with Palladium and TCPA. Once someone digs the key out of the hardware, or finds any other vulnerability, then they own their system. They can run an undetectable virtualized system. They'll have "god mode" over it and af far as the rest of the world can tell they are running a secure and "trusted" system. Hell, the security situation could wind up being worse because they are pretty much going to force you to "trust" other people running the system. It just means you're going to get screwed over worse when a computer you were forced to "trust" isn't in fact secure.

-

--
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Re:Why don't they fix the exploit? by Ender+Ryan · 2003-07-04 01:26 · Score: 1

Exactly. And with this many hackers working on the Xbox, just imagine how many hackers will be working on Palladium.

--
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Re:Why don't they fix the exploit? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 02:03 · Score: 0

Hacks like this is what makes Linux the coolest OS of them all.
Linux is fun. Linux is cutting edge.
Oh yes. Linux is cool. Love it.
Re:Why don't they fix the exploit? by princeofweasels · 2003-07-04 03:42 · Score: 1

The only thing for Microsoft to do is to install digital cameras on them so they can monitor your usage and ensure that it is proper.
Re:Why don't they fix the exploit? by ysachlandil · 2003-07-04 03:50 · Score: 1

There is no way to flash the BIOS without soldering, so there is also no way to fix the dashboard without some kind of physical upgrade...

So Micro$oft could fix all new Xboxen, but they cannot fix the Xboxen that are already sold.

--Blerik

Mr. Bush Announces .... by Snoopy77 · 2003-07-03 17:48 · Score: 5, Funny

"From now on today will be known as XBox Independence Day!"

--
"She's a West Texas girl, just like me" - G.W Bush Iraqis

What the.. ? by rampant+mac · 2003-07-03 17:49 · Score: 5, Funny

From the article:

Dear Public,

Today is a very said day for Microsoft.

Especially if you're using their spelling / grammar software.

--
I like big butts and I cannot lie.

Re:What the.. ? by donutello · 2003-07-03 17:58 · Score: 3, Funny

Give them a break. They're Australians. It's not like English is a first language fo... oh, damn.

--
Mmmm.. Donuts
Re:What the.. ? by Michael+Hunt · 2003-07-03 18:01 · Score: 3, Funny

English, not American, is the first language of Australians ;)

These guys seem european, however, as there's no references to shrimps on barbies, or Fosters.

--
You're doing it wrong.
Re:What the.. ? by ziplux · 2003-07-03 18:01 · Score: 2, Insightful

I think you mean Austrians?
Re:What the.. ? by E-prospero · 2003-07-03 18:20 · Score: 3, Informative

These guys seem european, however, as there's no references to shrimps on barbies, or Fosters.

Three minor problems:

1) What the US calls a shrimp, Australians call a prawn.

2) Australians, on the whole, don't put prawns on a barbie. Barbies are Snaggers and Chop territory.

3) Nobody - and I mean Nobody - drinks Fosters. Seriously. An Australian psycopath wanting to perform torture wouldn't force his victim to drink Fosters.

So, the only role played by the phrase "Pass the fosters, throw a shrimp on the barbie" is to identify an american who wants to sound Aw-stralian.

Russ %-)

--
... and never, ever play leapfrog with a unicorn.
Re:What the.. ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:37 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Seriously, what beer do Ausies drink? In the US, Fosters is promoted as being the Aussie beer. In the UK, XXXX was touted as being the beer. Which is it really?
I guess it's like how people imagine Budweiser as being the American beer, but I have never once had a Bud or Coors or MGD, nor do I know anyone who drinks that crap. But then again, I suppose there are a lot of white trash who actually do drink Bud. Poor bastards.
Re:What the.. ? by reachinmark · 2003-07-03 18:50 · Score: 1

V.B.
Re:What the.. ? by Michael+Hunt · 2003-07-03 19:05 · Score: 2, Informative

Yeah, note heavy sarcasm :) - I'm from Melbourne.

I agree with your sentiments about local Fosters; it's shite. VB is likewise shite, however; most of the people I know drink either Boags or Cascade, as it is plentiful and relatively cheap (3 bucks odd for a pot, about 5 for a stubbie, bar prices.)

Apparently export fosters is quite good. I'll have to go to america one day just to try it.

I've barbequeued prawns before, the result is not worth the expense. I have no idea how prawns are meant to be cooked, but barbequeueing em just made black, crispy, carcinogenous prawns that tasted like arse.

--
You're doing it wrong.
Re:What the.. ? by gte910h · 2003-07-03 19:09 · Score: 1

How expensive are austrailian wines in austrialia? In the US, they are as cheap as domestic wines, and I'm curious if that was an exchange rate thing or what.

--
Want to see every step I took to start my company? http://www.rowdylabs.com/blogs/pitchtothegods
Re:What the.. ? by Vargasan · 2003-07-03 19:15 · Score: 0, Offtopic

I'm Canadian and proud to say I drink, and enjoy, Molson Canadian.

--
Putting the romance back into necromancer.
Re:What the.. ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:23 · Score: 0

Cheaper than US prices - you guys pay way too much for wine, which is surprising seeing as we're the ones with high taxes on alcohol and more restrictive licensing laws. A decent bottle here goes for $15, a drinkable one from $5.
Re:What the.. ? by BagOBones · 2003-07-03 19:27 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Molson Canadian or Kokanee

--
EA David Gardner -"... but the consumers have proven that actually what they want is fun."
Re:What the.. ? by evilviper · 2003-07-03 19:30 · Score: 1

1) What the US calls a shrimp, Australians call a prawn.

Nothing like heading to Australia to get yourself some prOn...

3) Nobody - and I mean Nobody - drinks Fosters. Seriously. An Australian psycopath wanting to perform torture wouldn't force his victim to drink Fosters.

Same way in the US really...

--
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Re:What the.. ? by E-prospero · 2003-07-03 19:39 · Score: 1

How expensive are austrailian wines in austrialia?

Getting off topic here, but you didn't have an email address to take this conversation offline...

Wine in AU is dirt cheap, compared to the US. I just got back from the US (Philadelphia), and I was amazed at the exorbitant price asked for wine. Most wine sold in Australia tends to be domestic - we have such an abundance that we have little need to import.

You can get drinkable red paint thinner at a liquor store for about A$10, a respectable drinker for about A$16, a very respectable red for A$22, and excellent cellarable quality wine for A$30 - thats about $6, $10, $13, $18 in US$. Prices are a little higher in restaurants, sometimes a little lower at the cellar door of the winery.

You can also spend a lot more (or a lot less) than that on a bottle if you want to (Penfolds Grange on the top end, Burronga Ridge gallon-o-goon on the other) :-)

As for exchange rates, $A1 = $US 0.66, or thereabouts at the moment.

Russ %-)

--
... and never, ever play leapfrog with a unicorn.
Re:What the.. ? by dafdaf · 2003-07-03 19:40 · Score: 1

Actually those guys are from Austria (Europe).

The people here speak some funny dialect very much like German. - And they wear Lederhosen and just eat Schnitzel all day.

--
To error is human, to forgive, beyond the scope of the OS.
Re:What the.. ? by Rip!ey · 2003-07-03 19:44 · Score: 1

Seriously, what beer do Ausies drink?

When someone else is shouting, we'll drink any beer :)
Re:What the.. ? by Per+Wigren · 2003-07-03 19:49 · Score: 1

Apparently export fosters is quite good.

The people who like Foster's are the same people who like Budweiser so I doubt it... :-P

--
My other account has a 3-digit UID.
Re:What the.. ? by Rip!ey · 2003-07-03 19:59 · Score: 1

If you must know, the Australian bastardisation of the English language is known as 'Strine'.
Re:What the.. ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 20:09 · Score: 0

You idiot, they are Austrians! Read the article.

Austrians are from Austria
Australians are from Australia
Re:What the.. ? by Marlor · 2003-07-03 20:09 · Score: 1

Seriously, what beer do Ausies drink? In the US, Fosters is promoted as being the Aussie beer. In the UK, XXXX was touted as being the beer. Which is it really?

It depends on what state you are in.

Queensland: XXXX
New South Wales: Tooheys
Victoria: Victoria Bitter

I wouldn't have a clue about the other states, but I assume they all have their own beers. Nobody drinks Fosters though. Not even a Tasmanian would be stupid enough to drink it.
Re:What the.. ? by ebbe11 · 2003-07-03 20:41 · Score: 1

I've barbequeued prawns before, the result is not worth the expense. I have no idea how prawns are meant to be cooked, but barbequeueing em just made black, crispy, carcinogenous prawns that tasted like arse.
You probably left the prawns on the barbecue for too long. Depending on size it takes from about thirty seconds up to a couple of minutes to barbecue prawns. Experiment a bit more and you'll find out how to do it.
The other possible reason is that your barbecue was more like a blazing campfire than a proper barbecue. In that case nothing you put in it will be edible not to mention tasty.

--

My opinion? See above.
Re:What the.. ? by SolubleFrank · 2003-07-03 20:59 · Score: 1

Crown Lager is exported overseas and labelled Fosters...

....so my unreliable, alcoholic sources say.

--
Feed me a stray cat.
Re:What the.. ? by David+Gerard · 2003-07-03 20:59 · Score: 1

UK Fosters (brewed locally) tastes like Australian Fosters or VB, but much, much better.
Of course, it's still skanky rat piss compared to the British real ale. And that's skanky rat piss compared to the beer in Belgium or Germany.

--
http://rocknerd.co.uk
Re:What the.. ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 21:13 · Score: 0

I agree with your sentiments about local Fosters; it's shite. VB is likewise shite, however; most of the people I know drink either Boags or Cascade, as it is plentiful and relatively cheap (3 bucks odd for a pot, about 5 for a stubbie, bar prices.)

are you speaking backwards or something ?
Re:What the.. ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 21:18 · Score: 0

The thing is, there is such a thing as Pilsner and the fact that it's a flavor of water doesn't change the fact that it's a beer, and as a beer it is therefore good.

Foster's, at least what they sell in the states, is a good light beer, a much better beer than the american thin beers. I like a darker beer but still light, lighter ales and darker lagers.

But again, I would try any beer, including very thick beers and appreciate them, because, as I say, "is it beer?" "then it's all good."

Wine's are not all good. You need good wine. It's like dogs and cats, really.

-Anonymouse Beer Lover
Re:What the.. ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 22:12 · Score: 0

Im Tasmanian you insensitive clod!

And we usually drink Boags premium..
Re:What the.. ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 22:13 · Score: 0

Getting off topic here, but you didn't have an email address to take this conversation offline...

Whaaat? This is Slashdot man!
Re:What the.. ? by Black+Parrot · 2003-07-03 22:47 · Score: 1

> What the US calls a shrimp, Australians call a prawn.

Somehow it doesn't have quite the same ring to it if you call your schoolmate a "little prawn" when you shake him down for his lunch money during recess.

--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Re:What the.. ? by Bilestoad · 2003-07-03 22:58 · Score: 1

Foster's is not exported, only the branding is exported. Foster's Lager in North America is brewed by Molson in Canada.
Re:What the.. ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 23:10 · Score: 0

I'm Swedish and proud to say I drink Dunk or Hembränt.
Re:What the.. ? by nathanh · 2003-07-03 23:21 · Score: 1

Seriously, what beer do Ausies drink?

The majority of Aussies? Probably VB (Victoria Bitter). Though it's pretty horrible stuff. Nasty chemical aftertaste. It's very cheap and available almost everywhere.
XXXX is apparently very popular up north (eg, Queensland) but it's just as bad as VB. I've only had it once and that was once too often.
Most popular Aussie beer that is halfway decent is Coopers. They make a range of ales and stouts. I'm fond of the Coopers Pale Ale.
Re:What the.. ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 23:25 · Score: 0

Oh come on, that's only half a tone up from American beer. Drink Sleeman.
Re:What the.. ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 23:32 · Score: 0

Real beer: Portuguese Super Bock! Best beer this side of the milky way!
Re:What the.. ? by chialea · 2003-07-03 23:55 · Score: 1

It depends heavily on where you are. PA has some very weird liquor laws that make wine VERY expensive. Before this I lived in CA, where wine is quite inexpensive and good. I don't actually drink the stuff, techincally, but the difference is obvious even to me.

That no one can compete with the PA liquor store monopoly also means that you have to be lucky to get decent wines, since they don't have much, from what I hear.

Lea
Re:What the.. ? by EpsCylonB · 2003-07-04 00:04 · Score: 1

I like fosters.
Re:What the.. ? by martinX · 2003-07-04 00:34 · Score: 1

No-one seriously drinks XXXX. It's OK for really hot summer days, but then so is camel's piss.

As for Fosters: what we call Fosters isn't the same as the Fosters sold overseas. What they get is Crown Lager sold under a Fosters label. And we ALL like crownies.

Unless Coopers is available...

--
When they came for the communists, I said "He's next door. Take him away. Goddam commies."
Re:What the.. ? by bitrate · 2003-07-04 00:46 · Score: 1

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly are "snaggers and chop"?

--
Anyone can walk on water....think WINTERTIME.
Re:What the.. ? by BigBadBri · 2003-07-04 01:12 · Score: 1

Yeugh!
I stopped drinking Fosters after they started brewing it over here.
Now when it came in litre tins, imported from Australia, it was tasty (though not as malty as the XXXX was when it, too, came in tins).
Give me a decent pint of Robinsons Best any day of the week.

--
oh brave new world, that has such people in it!
Re:What the.. ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 01:36 · Score: 0

I never understood why everyone gets up in arms over whose beer is the best when frankly it is all pisswater. If I want a good drink, I will sit down with a bottle of scottish whiskey or a jamaican rum...possibly an aged brandy if I want to splurge. Beer is, and always will be, the garbage drink of the moronic masses.
Re:What the.. ? by gblues · 2003-07-04 01:42 · Score: 1

IIRC, "Export" Fosters isn't actually brewed in Australia. I think it's made in Canada. I'd have to go check the can, though.

Still, Fosters isn't that bad here in the states, but then it's competing with junk like Coors, Budweiser, and MGD. Gimme Guinness any day. :)

Nathan
Re:What the.. ? by fwr · 2003-07-04 01:59 · Score: 1

1) What the US calls a shrimp, Australians call a prawn.

Um, no. Shrimp and prawns are two totally different things in the US, and throughout the world actually. However, in the US we do use both terms because some of us know the difference - talk to someone in New Orleans.

Or just check out Merriam-Webster. They say a prawn is "any of numerous widely distributed edible decapod crustaceans (as of the genera Pandalus and Peneus) that resemble shrimps and have large compressed abdomens" but a shrimp is "any of numerous mostly small and marine decapod crustaceans (suborders Dendrobranchiata and Pleocyemata) having a slender elongated body, a compressed abdomen, and a long spiny rostrum." They are in the same family, but prawns are much larger than shrimp.

If you are an Aussie, you could always go here, which is the InfoZone at Museum Victoria. Apparently someone down under knows the difference! Here's an excerpt:

"Shrimp or Prawn?
There is often confusion regarding the difference between a shrimp and a prawn. Physically they look very similar but there is one sure way to tell them apart. In shrimps or carideans the side plate of the second segment of the abdomen overlaps the segments in front and behind. Prawns, most of which belong to the family Penaeidae of the group Dendrobranchiata, have all the abdominal side plates overlapping tile-like from the front. A more fundamental difference but one impossible to appreciate in a single specimen is that female prawns do not brood eggs but shed them into the currents where they develop independently. It would therefore make sense to call all member s of the Penaeidae "prawns" and members of the Caridean "shrimps" and this is what most Australians do. King prawns and banana prawns are names understood in this continent for penaeids sold frozen at the markets. The tiny shrimps bought in cans or froz en are imported carideans. Confusion arises when we hear Americans refer to prawns as "shrimp"."

So, unfortunately, it would seem that even though Museum Victoria knows the difference, most Aussies don't, and incorrectly believe that Americans don't know what they are talking about. Even the last sentence from the InfoZone expresses this belief. This is most distressful for Americans to hear, because we are under the constant barrage of comments from Old Europe, and apparently also Australia, about how sophisticated they are, and how ignorant Americans are. I won't go on record to say that it's really the other way around, but comments like this, from a goverment source even, makes one wonder.
Re:What the.. ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 03:03 · Score: 0

Steak & pork chops.
Re:What the.. ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 03:10 · Score: 0

An Australian psycopath wanting to perform torture wouldn't force his victim to drink Fosters.

Of course not, he'd use Bud Light.
Re:What the.. ? by lburdet · 2003-07-04 03:28 · Score: 1

you're a retard aren't you? AUSTRIAN!!

.au != .at !!
Re:What the.. ? by IWannaBeAnAC · 2003-07-04 04:40 · Score: 1

Yep I concur. Boags premium, fractionally better than Cascade premium (which is still pretty good).
Tooheys old is nice too but its hard to get in tassie (or was).
Re:What the.. ? by IWannaBeAnAC · 2003-07-04 04:45 · Score: 1

The interesting thing is, in most parts of the EU (I think the UK is an exception), Australian wine is cheaper than it is in Australia. Less than 5 euros would get you a quite drinkable wine, 10 euros would give you something very very good. Restraunt prices are insane though.
Re:What the.. ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 05:43 · Score: 0

Fosters in the U.S. is an excellent *Canadian* lager. This American was _very_ disappointed with his first Australian Fosters. Coors-light territory.
Re:What the.. ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 08:21 · Score: 0

It's what your mommy sticks up your ass every night bitrate.
Re:What the.. ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 08:56 · Score: 0

I'd definitely never describe real ale as rat piss. It's too damn thick! :)

It's just very different, yes, and we're good at dark ale, but we can't brew a light one anywhere near as well as the Belgians, Germans or Czechs.
Re:What the.. ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 10:10 · Score: 0

Since when is emailing taking the conversation offline?

Sincerely,
Ye Picker o' Nits.
Re:What the.. ? by Phronesis · 2003-07-04 16:50 · Score: 1

I have no idea how prawns are meant to be cooked, but barbequeueing em just made black, crispy, carcinogenous prawns that tasted like arse.
Buy a copy of The Thrill of the Grill by Chris Schlesinger. Lotsa good ways to grill shrimp (as we call them on the correct side of the equator) without scorching them.
Schelinger will also explain to you why "barbecue" and "grill" are two completely different concepts. Barbecueing shrimp (cooking them for 12 hours with smokey indirect heat) would indeed be sacrilege against the gods who created these tasty protein lumps, but grilling them (cooking them briefly directly over coals) will produce delicious results.
Re:What the.. ? by thynk · 2003-07-04 22:14 · Score: 1

So lemme see if I got this straight now... if I live in, or visit Australia I can drink an American beer, shit on my Xbox and it wil boot linux, but I can't program VB (is that because VB is shit or because VB doesn't run on linux) but I can watch some prawn on it.

Does that sound right?

--

Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
Re:What the.. ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-05 00:52 · Score: 0

All this beertalk and nobody's mentioned Stella yet. Fucking heathens!
Re:What the.. ? by moby · 2003-07-05 05:31 · Score: 1

I used to drink only Molson Golden like religion. Then one day I noticed the Molson Canadian. I tried it, it was good and offered a new taste. However, before too long I had to switch back due to the sweetness of the Molson Canadian.

Like when you go from Dark Rum to Spiced Rum... the first 1-2 drinks are really good but then all you can taste is the sweet spice. Too much. Gotta go back!

Just wondering... by r84x · 2003-07-03 17:50 · Score: 1

I'm sure on of you ubernerds out there will ridicule me, but what is all the seemingly garbled text at the bottom of this guys page? It begins after "begin-base64 644 dayX.tgz" Thanks, and please don't mod me flamebait, my curiousity would be crushed beyond repair...

--
Karma: Can there be a void?

.. -. - . .-. .-. --- -...

Re:Just wondering... by dougnaka · 2003-07-03 17:56 · Score: 1

It's a base64 encoded file. Email often uses base64 to encode binary files for transfer. It's probably due to the message being sent as an email. Your mail reader should have a way to save it, try cutting & paste into a txt message you send yourself?

--
My Linux Command of the Day site : LCOD
Re:Just wondering... by Michael+Hunt · 2003-07-03 17:56 · Score: 1

it's a base64-encoded binary file. Base64 is a way of encoding 8 bit data into 7-bit clean text so that it can be passed through systems which aren't 8-bit clean, such as some older mailers.

Obviously, base64 increases filesize by at least 1/7.

--
You're doing it wrong.
Re:Just wondering... by r84x · 2003-07-03 17:58 · Score: 1

I was just informed by a friend that the text I was questioning is the "Attached you will find a proof of concept exploit which will start linux."
Sorry to waste anyone's time...

--
Karma: Can there be a void?
.. -. - . .-. .-. --- -...
Re:Just wondering... by Wingnut64 · 2003-07-03 17:58 · Score: 1

It's data; the right software could parse the doc and reconstruct the file (in this case a zip of the exploit). It's common practice on news groups and such.

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echo 'Header append X-HD-DVD "0x09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0"' >> /etc/apache2/httpd.conf
Re:Just wondering... by randyest · 2003-07-03 17:59 · Score: 5, Informative

It's a base-64 encoded proof-of-concept font and loader program. Base-64 is sort of like uuencode -- it's just a reversible way to represent a binary file as ascii code. The line "begin-base64 644 dayX.tgz" is the header that includes the encoded filename (dayX.tgz). Ask google about it for more info. Google knows all.

--
everything in moderation
Re:Just wondering... by jaybird144 · 2003-07-03 18:01 · Score: 1

It looks to me like the "proof of concept exploit" mentioned in the text. It's a compressed file, in raw form, which can be copied to a text file, named with a .tgz extension, and expanded under Linux.
Re:Just wondering... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:07 · Score: 0

Base-64 encoded file, kind of like uuencoding. When that block is passed through a decoder you will have a copy of dayX.tgz
Re:Just wondering... by sperling · 2003-07-03 18:12 · Score: 1

Actually it's 6-bit, that's why it's base64, so the increase is 1/4.

--
The next great MMORPG.
Re:Just wondering... by sperling · 2003-07-03 18:16 · Score: 1

this is ot and reply to own post but oh well... 1/3 increase, now i'm off to get some more coffee.

--
The next great MMORPG.
Re:Just wondering... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:38 · Score: 0

Not exactly. It's encoded in base64 so it will be clean ASCII. You'd have to decode said file first. Then you can untar it.
Re:Just wondering... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:40 · Score: 0

I'm sure on of you ubernerds out there will ridicule me

Now that's not fair... How can I ridicule you now without you saying 'I told you so'...? :)

Copy said text from begin-base64 to ==== to a file (e.g. orig.txt) and enter on the command line uudecode orig.txt. This will create a file dayX.tgz. Untar this to see the contents.

Rob
Re:Just wondering... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:41 · Score: 0

You can paste it into a text file and open/extract it with most Windows (de)compression programs (like WinRAR). Should be possible to do similar with some Linux utility..
Re:Just wondering... by 1u3hr · 2003-07-03 22:24 · Score: 1

what is all the seemingly garbled text at the bottom of this guys page? It begins after "begin-base64 644 dayX.tgz
It's the MIME-encoded archive containing the files you need for the exploit: bert.xtf, ernie.xtf, (corrupted fonts) default.xbe (Linux loader). With a little bit of cutting and pasting you can decode it with Aladdin Expander, or probably Winzip, etc.
Re:Just wondering... by usotsuki · 2003-07-03 22:27 · Score: 1

Yeah, there's a Perl mod for base64 at least, then

$ tar -zxvf dayX.tgz

But you knew that already.

-uso.

--
Dreams, dreams, don't doubt dreams, dreaming children's dreaming dreams. Sailor Moon SS
Re:Just wondering... by jliverse · 2003-07-04 00:49 · Score: 1

uudecode -o dayx.tgz dayx.tgz.txt

Where dayx.tgz.txt contains the block including the begin-base64 down to the ====. :)

honestly... by mrscorpio · 2003-07-03 17:50 · Score: 5, Insightful

...did they really think Microsoft would give in to their "demands" AND legitimize X-Box hacking at the same time? Give me a break. Why would it make sense for Microsoft to encourage Linux installs on a product solely meant to play games and movies, when it doesn't even port it's cash cow software for the real desktop OS? I hate to make this comparison (because of the can of worms it's sure to open), but it's like terrorists who try to bargain hostages for freeing their buddies. You CAN'T bargain with them, because it simply encourages others to follow in their path.

Congrats to the guys for the hard hacking work, but get a little business sense and in the meantime, better get a lawyer. This ain't gonna make the boyz in Redmond none too happy.

Chris

Re:honestly... by Malcontent · 2003-07-03 18:04 · Score: 3, Interesting

"Give me a break. Why would it make sense for Microsoft to encourage Linux installs on a product solely meant to play games and movies, when it doesn't even port it's cash cow software for the real desktop OS? "

To sell more xboxes?

Think about it, even if MS lost money on every one sold they would have bragging rights. They could go araound saying that the Xbox is most popular game system and spread FUD around like peanut butter on rye toast.

They have 40 billion in the bank and can afford to lose tens (if not hundreds) of millions dollars to gain a monoply on the game console market.

Also with each passing day the cost of a Xbox goes down and eventually they will actually make money on the thing.

--
War is necrophilia.
Re:honestly... by grahammm · 2003-07-03 18:05 · Score: 4, Insightful

Why should a hardware supplier have the right to dictate what the hardware is used for? There have been many instances of things being put to uses which the manufacturer did not even imagine when the product was first released, and sometimes these uses have become more popular than the original purpose of the item - and have increased sales of the item.

This is NOT the same as gaining access to / duplicating copyright works.
Re:honestly... by mrscorpio · 2003-07-03 18:11 · Score: 1

I didn't say they should/can dictate what is done with their hardware, I said, why would they want to legitimize hacking their own hardware, especially a company like Microsoft, who against homeade ANYTHING?

Chris
Re:honestly... by mrscorpio · 2003-07-03 18:14 · Score: 4, Insightful

You realize how little market share Linux has, right?

A significant number (to Microsoft) of people are not going to rush out and buy X-Boxes to install Linux on it. Maybe a few thousand worldwide, MAYBE. That's not going to put them over the top against Sony.

Chris
Re:honestly... by CrowScape · 2003-07-03 18:15 · Score: 5, Insightful

But the idea isn't to make money off of selling the hardware, it's to make money off of selling the software. By hacking the X-Box so that you can run software that Microsoft isn't getting a royalty on kinda defeats the purpose. As consoles become more and more expensive to manufacture you'll see more emphasis placed on the profits produced by games while the manufacturers become willing to almost give the thing they spent $200 building away. This kind of hacking, if it ever begins to saturate the market, only serves to undermine consoles in general.

--
common sense: noun
What those who are ignorant of the subject matter think; usually wrong.
Re:honestly... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:09 · Score: 2, Insightful

Because you buy an Xbox with a license. If Microsoft decided you could only use an Xbox while wearing fluffly bunny slippers they have that right, and if you buy one after agreeing to do so and fail to do it then you have broken the law and deserve everything that happens to you.

Your fanciful idea that subverting the license might help Microsoft is irrelevant, not to mention stupid. It doesn't matter if it hurts them or helps them, Xbox owners agreed to a license and are bound by it.

When you produce a product of some kind you have the right to dictate its use also, not that a lame pom could ever produce anything people would pay money for.
Re:honestly... by sweatyboatman · 2003-07-03 19:17 · Score: 5, Insightful

and the argument is that this is a flawed business model. purchasing the XBOX should allow me to run whatever I want on it. I'm not leasing it. It's my property. I don't own the software or firmware, but I definately do own the hardware.

If I can make the firmware do what I want, then how could that be illegal? Once I pay for it, MS no longer has a say in how I use it.

If I hollow out the case and use it as a planter, is that an illegal modification? Can Microsoft sue me because they're not making their royalty money on the plants I'm growing in my XBOX?

--
It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
Re:honestly... by Zork+the+Almighty · 2003-07-03 19:25 · Score: 4, Insightful

I've never seen this licence you keep referring to. Software is sold under licence, since otherwise you could run multiple copies of the program (note : this has nothing to do with distributing the program to others, which would be copyright infringement). I can't think of any physical goods offhand that come with a licence. I think you get to "own" them.

--

In Soviet America the banks rob you!
Re:honestly... by rpresser · 2003-07-03 19:25 · Score: 5, Insightful

The hardware is mine . There was no license governing my use of the hardware. There was, instead, a license governing the use of the software associated with that hardware.

Suppose I decided that I really, really liked using Xboxes as boat anchors. Is it your belief that such use would be against some license and that I would be technically in violation of it? Wrongo.
Re:honestly... by Myuu · 2003-07-03 19:40 · Score: 1

if you want an example, i would point to apple's newton, which although no longer produced can stack up to a lot of modern pdas.

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forget it.
Re:honestly... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:43 · Score: 0

"Because you buy an Xbox with a license."

Not me. I've never used an XBox, but I just bought a used one that I plan to run Linux on. Bill Gates can lick the back of my bag.
Re:honestly... by Shisha · 2003-07-03 19:50 · Score: 1

Well, Microsoft _could_ have avoided this years ago by releasing a signed Linux bootloader _and_ charging some $$$ for the bootloader, so that they actually make a profit on selling the Xbox hw and the bootloader.

Any sensible person, no matter how much they dislike Microsoft, should be able to understand that they can't expect Microsoft to give away PC's (cluster nodes, storage devices, whatever you call a Linux Xbox) whilst losing some $40 (or whatever the real number is) on each unit. Now, _if_ they charged $50 for the bootloader then the profit could be (say) $10 and everyone could be reasonably happy.
Re:honestly... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · 2003-07-03 19:51 · Score: 1

One word.
Well, sort of. ::Cue::Cat

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When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Re:honestly... by Malcontent · 2003-07-03 20:01 · Score: 1

" But the idea isn't to make money off of selling the hardware, it's to make money off of selling the software"

If that is the idea then maybe there is something wrong in the first place.

"As consoles become more and more expensive to manufacture you'll see more emphasis placed on the profits produced by games while the manufacturers become willing to almost give the thing they spent $200 building away."

Xbox was designed almost two years ago. It has a lame ass chip that costs significantly less today then it did when it first came out. The fact is that every day the xbox costs less to manufacture. Why do you think it keeps costing more?

"This kind of hacking, if it ever begins to saturate the market, only serves to undermine consoles in general."

Yea right. 0.0001% of the population that will hack this thing is going to disrupt the market.

--
War is necrophilia.
Re:honestly... by Read+Icculus · 2003-07-03 20:59 · Score: 1

When you produce a product of some kind you have the right to dictate its use also When you purchase a hat from Hatco Inc., you agree to our license, and all the contractual obligations that our license entails. All hats must be worn on the purchasers head, any other usage of our "product" is illegal, and shall be dealt with in the most extreme manner available to Hatco Inc. This may seem a tad bit harsh, but the producer of a product has the right to dictate any and all uses that said product may be put to. So sayeth the AC, and he hath been modded "Insightful".

--
Anti-social? My code is just platform-specific.
Re:honestly... by Fallen_Knight · 2003-07-03 21:07 · Score: 1

Well if someone owns a X-Box for linux, someone else in their household, or the owner themselves MIGHT just decide oneday to get a game and play it on the x-box, even thou the orig reason they baught it over such and such was because they could run linux on it .
Re:honestly... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 21:08 · Score: 0

rpresser@imtek.com - your email address is mine . There was no license governing my use of your email address. There was, instead, a pathetic attempt to hide it.

Suppose you get a shitload of spam now. Is it your belief that your pontificating on slashdot was worth it? Wrongo.
Re:honestly... by dekashizl · 2003-07-03 22:23 · Score: 4, Funny

If I hollow out the case and use it as a planter, is that an illegal modification? Can Microsoft sue me because they're not making their royalty money on the plants I'm growing in my XBOX?
Dude... What kind of plants are you growing in there?
Re:honestly... by Jarlsberg · 2003-07-03 23:54 · Score: 2, Funny

If Microsoft decided you could only use an Xbox while wearing fluffly bunny slippers they have that right.
Are you mad?
Re:honestly... by Graspee_Leemoor · 2003-07-04 00:04 · Score: 1

"Bill Gates can lick the back of my bag."

You say this, yet I believe were he to do so, you would lose your sanity from the sheer horror of the experience.

graspee
Re:honestly... by EzInKy · 2003-07-04 00:26 · Score: 1

Why should a hardware supplier have the right to dictate what the hardware is used for? There have been many instances of things being put to uses which the manufacturer did not even imagine when the product was first released, and sometimes these uses have become more popular than the original purpose of the item - and have increased sales of the item.

You're talking about innovation here, and the seller has a monolpoly on innovation.

--
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
Re:honestly... by EzInKy · 2003-07-04 00:31 · Score: 3, Insightful

Because you buy an Xbox with a license.

Only the X-Box code is licensed, and getting rid of the is the whole purpose of the exploit.

--
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
Re:honestly... by Avakado · 2003-07-04 00:34 · Score: 4, Informative

In many countries, and I believe in USA too, you don't have to accept a license you haven't signed. If you don't sign the license, you only have the rights copyright provides you, which for closed source software for home use usually is better than what the license provides you. These rights includes installing the software on every computer in your home, but not every one in your company. This means you're "owning" your copy of the product. I attended the trial against Jon Johansen (co-author and distributor of DeCSS), where he explained they had used an uncompression program rather than the installation program to install the Xing DVD tool, in order to avoid accepting the click-through license. The prosecutor accepted this reasoning. The defender later stated that restrictions printed on the outside of DVD covers were invalid as long as the buyer didn't sign an agreement in the store. This was also undisputed by the prosecutor.

--
The world will end in 5 minutes. Please log out.
Re:honestly... by jack+torrence · 2003-07-04 00:44 · Score: 1

you mean like rolling papers?
Re:honestly... by Aceticon · 2003-07-04 01:00 · Score: 1

> If I hollow out the case and use it as a planter, is that an illegal modification? Can Microsoft sue me because they're not making their royalty money on the plants I'm growing in my XBOX?

Dude... What kind of plants are you growing in there?

Mold???
Re:honestly... by alienw · 2003-07-04 02:19 · Score: 1

What the fuck are you talking about? You can't sell stuff with strings attached. With software, you OWN the disc, and you can do whatever with it (just not the bits that are on it). With hardware, you OWN it. It's yours. There may be patents protecting it and copyright protecting any embedded software, but the hardware cannot come with a license, because it's SOLD. You don't lease an xbox, you BUY an xbox.
Re:honestly... by carpe_noctem · 2003-07-04 02:41 · Score: 1

You'd think this would be an encouragement to the X-Box linux team. Releasing these exploits will supposedly make it much easier to pirate X-Box games, which would effect the vast majority of X-Box consumers. Linux on X-Box, on the other hand, is such a small percentage of the market that it is essentially irrelevant.

On the other hand, if this team didn't release their exploits, someone else would have discovered them and done so anyways...

--
"Quoting famous computer scientists out of context is the root of all evil (or at least most of it) in programming." - K
Re:honestly... by JazFresh · 2003-07-04 04:08 · Score: 1

and sometimes these uses [...] have increased sales of the item.
That assumes that Microsoft is following a simple business model where selling more is better for them, just like almost every other product on the planet.
But it's not like that.
Firstly, they LOSE money on every Xbox sold because the hardware is more expensive to make/distribute than its tag price. So selling more is financially harmful.
"Ah", you say, "but then they can brag that they have a larger market share." But what's the use of saying "We have x million consoles out there" if people know that a lot of them are being used to run Linux instead of games? It's like a glue company saying "Our glue sells millions a year! It must be good, it's incredibly popular!" when everyone knows that most of the sales of that brand are due to glue sniffers.
Re:honestly... by rpresser · 2003-07-04 04:12 · Score: 1

As noted in another reply, the pathetic attempt is Slashdot's, not mine. I made the decision to provide my email address to people with a brain when I gave it to slashdot - which, necessarily, was before I started "pontificating" with it.
Re:honestly... by JamieF · 2003-07-04 05:02 · Score: 1

I think the scary scenario that MS is trying to avoid is the one in which Linux on Xbox becomes generally available for free, and Xbox developers start to use that as the default development and deployment platform, circumventing Microsoft and their royalty structure. In this scenario, MS loses money on the hardware, and makes nothing on the games. There doesn't need to be a market of end-users who just want to run Linux on the Xbox, because the game buyers would have no idea what their games were based on. They would just buy the games and play them, and MS would make no money. Then if the Xbox started to succeed... ouch for MS.

I'm not predicting that this WILL happen, I'm just pointing out that it COULD happen and that MS would lose big if it did. So I think that's why they are so against Xbox hacking.
Re:honestly... by CrowScape · 2003-07-04 06:20 · Score: 1

If that is the idea then maybe there is something wrong in the first place

Only if it doesn't work.

Xbox was designed almost two years ago. It has a lame ass chip that costs significantly less today then it did when it first came out. The fact is that every day the xbox costs less to manufacture. Why do you think it keeps costing more?

Did I say it keeps costing more? Gee, I thought I was commenting on the plans of some console companies to take more and more of a loss on the hardware of future consoles to sell more hardware.

Yea right. 0.0001% of the population that will hack this thing is going to disrupt the market.

Which would be why I used the word "saturate". You quoted the line but apparently failed to read it.

--
common sense: noun
What those who are ignorant of the subject matter think; usually wrong.
Re:honestly... by Malcontent · 2003-07-04 08:24 · Score: 1

"Did I say it keeps costing more?"

Why yes you did. Now go back re-read your own god damned post.

--
War is necrophilia.
Re:honestly... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 12:59 · Score: 0

This kind of hacking, if it ever begins to saturate the market, only serves to undermine consoles in general.

Really? Then why does Sony support Linux on their console???
They were smart and released Linux on PS2 in a way that they could control, rather than encourage 'this kind of hacking'.

And the floodgates open.. by freeweed · 2003-07-03 17:51 · Score: 5, Insightful

Looks like it's open season on the Xbox now, but I'm a bit confused. The ZDnet article mentions the $100,000 no hardware mod prize, yet right in the exploit description it states:

Q1: How do I get the files onto the harddisk?

A1: There are several ways. You could f.e. install the files with the Mechassault or 007 hacks. This requires one of the games and the files on a memorycard. The other way is to open the box and do the harddisk swap trick which is described all over the net.

So if you need to use an existing hack to do this, and those hacks didn't qualify for the prize, how could this one? Any Xbox experts care to comment?

Additionally, isn't it nice to see that companies are now suing on a regular basis for exploit publication. Good that they only want black hats posessing this sort of information.

--
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.

Re:And the floodgates open.. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:02 · Score: 0

At a stab: you use the existing hack to get the files from a memory card onto the hard drive, where they need to be for this new hack to work. Once they're in place, away you go -- no hardware modification needed, no hard drive removal needed.
Re:And the floodgates open.. by ziplux · 2003-07-03 18:04 · Score: 1

I think even with the other hack, you needed to crack open the case an put a drop of solder on something. With the dashboard exploit, absolutley no hardware mods are necessary.
Re:And the floodgates open.. by cscx · 2003-07-03 18:32 · Score: 1

I think they were write-enable pads for the boot rom...
Re:And the floodgates open.. by Kris_J · 2003-07-03 19:46 · Score: 2, Insightful

So if you need to use an existing hack to do this, and those hacks didn't qualify for the prize, how could this one? Any Xbox experts care to comment?
The other weren't permanent, this one is.
Re:And the floodgates open.. by Hast · 2003-07-04 00:57 · Score: 2, Informative

To clarify the parent (which was completely correct AFAIK).

The first hack allowed you to run unsigned code. You do this by loading a comprimised save game in one of the vulnerable games. ("007 Nightfire" or "Mechassult") This requires a memory card which has been altered on a PC, or that you have removed the HDD of the XBox which you want to compromise. (Obviously the memory card is easier, but they cost a few bucks.)

In the compromised save game you put code you want to execute. In this case you could have it open an FTP server on the XBox. (This is the old hack.) After this you hook up the box to a PC and copy the files over using the FTP server. (This is the new hack.)

Now reboot and you have a compromised XBox. (The first hack would require you to redo the hack each time you wanted access to the "backdoor".)
Re:And the floodgates open.. by CTho9305 · 2003-07-04 02:18 · Score: 1

Can the hacked xboxes be used to create the requried savegames?

--
My server
Re:And the floodgates open.. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 09:19 · Score: 0

Yes, they could.

Something similar was going to happen with a PS2 savegame that you could copy, and that there was a bootdisc to write. Last I heard the bootdiscs were at the replicators. Don't know if it's swap or non-swap though.
Re:And the floodgates open.. by Hast · 2003-07-15 22:07 · Score: 1

Sure, but the easiest is probably to hook the memory card up to a normal PC with a converter. (The memory card is a standard USB memory AFAIK.)

Same as this exploit? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 17:51 · Score: 2, Informative

I wonder if it is the same exploit posted here:

http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vulnwatch /2 003-q3/0008.html

This is also an exploit dealing with the X-Box dashboard.

This was initially posted in replies to another story in the gaming section by another AC.

XBOX Security

-= Security Advisory =-

Advisory: XBOX Dashboard local vulnerability
Release Date: 2003/07/04
Last Modified: 2003/07/04
Author: Stefan Esser [senopiracy.de]

Application: Microsoft XBOX Dashboard (up to today)
Severity: A vulnerability within the XBOX Dashboard allows to
totally compromise the security features of the XBOX.
Risk: Critical
Vendor Status: Vendor is not willing to talk about XBOX vulnerabilities.

Overview:

The XBOX Dashboard is what appears when you turn the XBOX on without a
disc in the DVD drive. It will let you adjust system settings, manage
your save games, play and rip audio CDs and configure your XBOX Live
account. It is the heart of the XBOX and its most vulnerable point,
because it lacks several security restrictions which are enforced on
games. This includes the lack of the reboot-on-eject-button "feature",
which is obligatory for all games.

The existance of an exploitable vulnerability within the dashboard could
totally compromises the XBOX security system. It will make the box
independent from Microsoft signed code and therefore this information is
released to the public now on the 4th of July 2003, the day of the XBOX
Independence.

They provide what they claim is working code to exploit the vulnerability.

Re:Same as this exploit? by Daetrin · 2003-07-03 18:03 · Score: 5, Insightful

I think you meant http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vulnwatch/2 003-q3/0008.html (ie without the extraneous space) but yeah, given that they're 100% identical to each other, including the name of the author, i'm guessing that they just _might_ be the same exploit.

--
This Space Intentionally Left Blank

Windows Update by rf0 · 2003-07-03 17:52 · Score: 1

How can Microsoft Force a fix on this on older X-Boxes? Surely they can't force a remote upgrade on the X-Boxes. As such if I now want to Run Linux I just have to go an buy an old X-Box

Woo

Rus

--
Cheap UK and US VPS

Re:Windows Update by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:19 · Score: 0

"As such if I now want to Run Linux I just have to go an buy an old X-Box"

Well, you could just use a PC, Mac, SPARC, SGI MIPS, Amiga, Atari ST, etc. :)

Linux is available for more platforms than the Xbox!
Re:Windows Update by damiam · 2003-07-03 18:24 · Score: 1

Surely they can't force a remote upgrade on the X-Boxes.
If you'd read the article, you'd know that they can through Xbox Live, but it's trivial to disable this once you have full control of the box.

--
It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
Re:Windows Update by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:39 · Score: 0

As such if I now want to Run Linux I just have to go an buy an old X-Box. Woo ... which they sell at a loss; which loss they are trying to recover later on through subscription programs (online gaming etc.)

Now didn't that little plan fall in the water because of this.
Re:Windows Update by gmhowell · 2003-07-03 18:55 · Score: 1

Linux is available for more platforms than the Xbox!

Since when!? Next you'll tell me that NetBSD is available on more platforms than x86.

--
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon

Blackmail by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 17:52 · Score: 5, Insightful

our team has been accused of attempting to extort or blackmail Microsoft

From the article, seems that is exactly what they tried to do:

For the exchange, we were requesting but not demanding the following:

- Complete access to all documentation (chipsets, video etc.) to assist in developing a better Linux for the XBox.
- A signed Linux loader.
- Protection from Microsoft or support if any organisation/government attempted to prosecute members of our team.
- Refunding of the cost occured during the agreement period.

Not demanding? Why would Microsoft politely offer any of those things?

Re:Blackmail by BurritoWarrior · 2003-07-03 18:27 · Score: 5, Funny

I like how the Free-X (box) team thinks. Let me try this out:

I am requesting that my post be moderated up to +5 or I will release pictures of Slashdot moderators in compromising positions with various farm animals.

Please note this is just a request, not a demand.
Re:Blackmail by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:39 · Score: 1, Funny

It would only be fair if you blur out the faces of the farm animals. Consider the embarassment they might suffer.
Re:Blackmail by frovingslosh · 2003-07-03 18:40 · Score: 1

Not demanding? Why would Microsoft politely offer any of those things?>/I>
Because they were foolishly offering Microsoft a lot - hard core expertise that Microsoft obviously does not have themselves that could allow Microsoft to much better secure the X-box against what they claim they are trying to prevent, software piracy. We're talking about a whole team of dedicated hard core experts here that offered to provide free labor and expertise to Microsoft to help secure their system, and Microsoft didn't even respond with a simple "We want the information, but are not willing to sign a Linux loader" response.
How these guys could know so much about the X-box but understand so little about what happens to anyone who trys to make a deal with Microsoft is what is really amazing.

--
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Re:Blackmail by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:47 · Score: 0

Well, you're only at a 2. Gibb0r.
Re:Blackmail by popeyethesailor · 2003-07-03 18:49 · Score: 1

That's one favor the public can do without :P
Re:Blackmail by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:50 · Score: 2, Funny

Yeah, like you have anything that hasn't already been posted to alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.slashdot.barnyard
Re:Blackmail by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:07 · Score: 0

While I think that a lot of the requests (recuperation? give me a break) are baloney, the need for a Linux loader was fair.
The team found an exploit that would allow both access to Linux, and as a side-effect would allow pirates to have their way with the Xbox. They requested a solution from Microsoft that would allow Linux to be loaded without allowing pirated games to be played, in which instance they wouldn't reveal the exploit. *That's* reasonable. Trying to get paid isn't.
Re:Blackmail by thdexter · 2003-07-03 19:24 · Score: 1

There wasn't an "or else." They were trying to initiate conversation and were being impolitely ignored. Microsoft didn't even say "FUCK YOUSE GUYS."

--
I'm on a road shaped like a figure eight; I'm going nowhere but I'm guaranteed to be late.
Re:Blackmail by WanChan · 2003-07-03 19:42 · Score: 5, Funny

...well, it's at +4 now, so somebody has something to hide :)
Re:Blackmail by Richard_at_work · 2003-07-03 19:58 · Score: 1

Because they were foolishly offering Microsoft a lot - hard core expertise that Microsoft obviously does not have themselves that could allow Microsoft to much better secure the X-box against what they claim they are trying to prevent, software piracy.

So you are saying that MS doesnt have the expertise that these people have, because theres a bug in some software? So does that mean some groups have more expertise than the Linux Kernel Team, everytime theres an exploit in that? OR BIND, Sendmail, one of a hundred.

MS paying these people off will only delay the inevitable. Paying them off would not make the exploit go away, and this team had already hinted that the exploit existed, therefor sparking others to look for it.

We're talking about a whole team of dedicated hard core experts here that offered to provide free labor and expertise to Microsoft to help secure their system

But they werent providing those services free of charge, look at the demands they were putting forward. They wanted paying for what they were offering, in both signed code and money for costs. They also wanted MS to protect them from 3rd parties.
Re:Blackmail by aziraphale · 2003-07-03 20:04 · Score: 1

'If you meet these requests, we'll sign an NDA', implies 'if you don't meet these requests, we're going public'.

If they had no intention of publishing the exploit,

1) why offer to sign an NDA?
2) why publish the exploit?
Re:Blackmail by mikeybee · 2003-07-03 20:25 · Score: 2, Funny

I've moderated recently, and I'm concerned.

How did you get a camera into the stable without me or the pregnant dwarf noticing?
Re:Blackmail by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 21:00 · Score: 0

I'm getting tired with this blackmail story.

This isn't blackmail.
You don't use blackmail to get something you already have. They wanted the possibility to run linux on the Xbox, which THEY ALREADY HAD with their hack.

This is an attempt to give an possibility for microsoft to negociate.

It's more like :

I have a great post that would get +5 instantly,
but with lots of hype in it. I agree to remove a bit of the hype if you mod me +5.

see the difference ?
Re:Blackmail by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 21:11 · Score: 0

Looks like they take you pretty seriously...
Makes you wonder how much of it is true...
Re:Blackmail by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 22:09 · Score: 0

But they werent providing those services free of charge, look at the demands they were putting forward.
There were requesting not demanding! Fucking hell, take of the blinders and read their statement again.
Idiot. Are you really that stupid or are you twisting their words on purpose?
Re:Blackmail by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 23:23 · Score: 0
It's amazing to me that you can be tired by something you obviously aren't reading. Just hop up two parent posts and examine the list of things THEY DON'T HAVE which were part of their demands:
- Complete access to all documentation (chipsets, video etc.) to assist in developing a better Linux for the XBox.
- A signed Linux loader.
- Protection from Microsoft or support if any organisation/government attempted to prosecute members of our team.
- Refunding of the cost occured during the agreement period.
This is blackmail. These are things they don't have. They apparantly want many things beyond just running linux on the xbox.
See the facts ?
Re:Blackmail by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 23:26 · Score: 0

To quote the Godfather: "I made him an offer. He can't refuse."

Just because it was phrased in the form of the request doesn't change the dynamics of the situation one bit.

"Would you please shoot yourself in the foot or I will shoot you in the head."
Re:Blackmail by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 00:23 · Score: 0

Really? Convenient.
Re:Blackmail by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 00:28 · Score: 0

"Would you please shoot yourself in the foot or I will shoot you in the head."

Nice try. How about: "We know how to shoot you in the head, would you please shoot yourself in the foot? But even if you don't we'll still help you."
Re:Blackmail by rmohr02 · 2003-07-04 00:52 · Score: 1

Not demanding? Why would Microsoft politely offer any of those things?
Because if Linux can run from an unsigned disc, so can pirated games. The exploit would work for both.
Re:Blackmail by fermion · 2003-07-04 04:57 · Score: 2, Interesting

Honestly whether is blackmail or not is moot. It is, in the end, normal business. MS does this with it's customers, giving them a choice between upgrades they don't need or massively expensive full version later on. The car companies, and most recently the airlines, have done this with the U.S. government demanding massive welfare payments to the corporation in exchange for not having massive RIFs. Consumers to this all the time, threatening to post bad reviews if their complaints are not solved.
It seems to me that all these kids wanted was a job. They proved their technical skill to do the work, they showed the perseverance, and appear to be rather clever. Sure the could just send a resume to MS, but who would have looked at it. We are told to be aggressive when looking for a job, but when someone actually is they get accused of blackmail.

--
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Re:Blackmail by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 06:18 · Score: 0

A request made in this manner is just a polite demand.

Microsoft was right not to give in to them.
Re:Blackmail by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 06:59 · Score: 0

Why do you think the dwarf looked pregnant? ;p

-- vranash
Re:Blackmail by mgblst · 2003-07-04 11:40 · Score: 1

Ahhh, the dwarf wasn't really pregnant...gotcha!

Well by Farrell · 2003-07-03 17:52 · Score: 1

Anyone imagine what Microsoft will do about this? Will they stop at just getting this off the net and getting some false, inflated damages? Or will they go all out and try to get the makers in jail. I know it's not a software program from outsiders, so what will Microsoft do? Patch the Dashboard? Will that be enough? Will this ever go away, or will Microsoft be haunted by it forever...

--
I want you to assume that all spelling and grammar errors are intentional. Thank You.

Re:Well by Nucleon500 · 2003-07-03 18:31 · Score: 1

No, they won't stop at getting it off the net. They won't even start. The more you tighten your grip, Vader, the more star systems will slip through your fingers. I love the Net.

--
Litigious bastards

You can already put linux on PS2.. so why not xbox by Akilae · 2003-07-03 17:52 · Score: 1

http://playstation2-linux.com/

http://us.playstation.com/hardware/more/SCPH-970 47 .asp .. if you can already put linux on ps2 so why not put it on the xbox?

I think this will make Xboxen much more popular. by mikeophile · 2003-07-03 17:53 · Score: 3, Funny

At least until the new patched models are released.

Microsoft shouldn't fight this too much. More Xbox loss leader sales will mean more game title sales, even if (or because of) piracy increases.

Who am I kidding? Bend over Bill, here comes the Penguin!

what a "habibi exploit"? by gribbly · 2003-07-03 17:53 · Score: 1

...and why was the 007 team 'stupid'?

Genuine questions for those more in the know about this than me.

thx,

grib.

--
maybe

Re:what a "habibi exploit"? by Michael+Hunt · 2003-07-03 17:59 · Score: 5, Informative

007 Agent Under Fire contains an exploit in the save-game loading routine which can lead to a local-root compromise on your X-box with a specially corrupted save game file.

This can be used, for example, to boot Linux, or flash the BIOS.

The reason that this didn't win Mike Robertson's 100 large is because you still need to rip the lid off the box and solder a pair of jumpers (or use conductive pen) in order to enable 'write' on the flash rom.

--
You're doing it wrong.
Re:what a "habibi exploit"? by gribbly · 2003-07-03 18:04 · Score: 1

Ah, thanks. One more question though - why is it called "habibi"?

grib.

--
maybe
Re:what a "habibi exploit"? by smokin_juan · 2003-07-03 18:10 · Score: 1

If i read it right (good luck), the 007 team was stupid for revealing the habibi exploit and the habibi exploit is allowing the game to continue running when the disk is ejected. don't know if that's right but it'll give you something to chew on until righteousness comes along.
Re:what a "habibi exploit"? by frovingslosh · 2003-07-03 18:57 · Score: 1

what a "habibi exploit"? ...and why was the 007 team 'stupid'?
Microsoft called the 007 team stupid because they did something in their software that could be exploited. We all know how good and secure and trustworthy Microsoft's own software is.
But 007 isn't the only software that the programmer's were "stupid" on. Apparently Mech assault is by Microsoft's own programmers and has the same problem, when they should have known better. Just think of this as Microsoft calling itself stupid. I don't know the game Mech assault, but I'm guessing the term habibi comes from something in it.

--
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Re:what a "habibi exploit"? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:02 · Score: 0

"Habibi" means "my love" or "my lover" or "my dear" in Arabic. This is a
male prnoun though, for females, it is "Habibti" (for Egyptian dialect)
or "Habibati" for Classic Arabic (and most other dialects.)
Re:what a "habibi exploit"? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:08 · Score: 1, Informative

Habibi was the nick of the guy that originally discovered/publicized it.
Re:what a "habibi exploit"? by ciroknight · 2003-07-03 19:18 · Score: 1

But this time, there's no need to modify the flash rom. You can use the hack to directly boot linux from there, from what I understand.. anyone care to prove me wrong?

--
"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." G.W.Bush
Re:what a "habibi exploit"? by rpresser · 2003-07-03 19:30 · Score: 1

That was the guy's handle.
Re:what a "habibi exploit"? by rpresser · 2003-07-03 19:38 · Score: 4, Informative
1. You don't need to flash the rom to use the habibi 007 exploit. You can use the savegame, plus a USB memory card, plus a USB-to-xbox cable, to run linux on your xbox whenever you like. You have to boot 007 first in order to load linux, but that's merely an annoyance.
2. Once you're in linux, IF you've soldered the motherboard, you can use a utility to flash the ROM. This is logically equivalent to installing a mod chip and flashing that; it just requires one less piece of hardware.
3. The new hack's purpose is to have linux load instead of the dashboard when the xbox starts up, thus removing 007 from the step. Logically, however, we're still using a hack as a linux bootloader; the difference being that the dashboard itself loads the hack, rather than the 007 game.
4. The 007 hack is one of a few possible springboards to implement the new hack; it happens to be one that does not require opening the case.
5. Footnote: there is actually another game besides 007 Agent Under Fire -- MechAssault -- which has a similar vulnerability. So you have a choice of 3 linux bootloaders.

too bad for microsoft by DJF-Me33 · 2003-07-03 17:53 · Score: 2, Insightful

Hopefully with the release of this exploit Microsoft will stop ignoring the homebrew community. The way I see it they knew about this before it happened and they should have taken the actions to communicate with the hackers and try to settle this. Now that they refused to negotiate people can freely pirate games causing not only Microsoft to lose money, but also the game developers. If they had negotiated only linux would be running on the xbox. :) Too bad for them. Maybe they will learn to listen to us ... maybe not.

Re:too bad for microsoft by Dimensio · 2003-07-03 18:12 · Score: 1

I'm sure that they will stop ignoring the homebrew community. Expect members of the homebrew community to get hit with countless lawsuits now.

--
STOP MISUSING APOSTROPHES, YOU MORONS!!!

looks like the real thing... by dspeyer · 2003-07-03 17:54 · Score: 1

...except that getting the code on there in the first place is still tricky. No soldering, but you have to swap around IDE cables and such. No trouble for the average /.er

Anyway, I've saved it to local storage so U can mirror it when it gets suppressed. I'm not putting it up yet so as not to /. my poor box. I urge everyone to do likewise.

--

Sig:Why copyright isn't a fundamental human right

Too Late for Microsoft by aerojad · 2003-07-03 17:55 · Score: 5, Interesting

Microsoft is already threatening them with legal action.

Too late. Just ask AOL at trying to stop WASTE when it came out. Up for a day, and mirrored more times then they will ever be able to count.

Microsoft lost right at the point they decided to not talk to them beforehand. They can shut these people down, but it's out there now, game over.

--

SecondPageMedia - Wha

Re:Too Late for Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:20 · Score: 0

Too late for these guys too when Bill spends a few of his benjamins greasing (pun intended) Ronnie the Rapist in the cell next door to pay them a "visit" twice daily.
Re:Too Late for Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:22 · Score: 3, Insightful

game over

Oh no, owners of existing X-Boxes and games will use this to boot linux after Microsoft et al have already profited from them. Some people might start using X-Boxes for non-game-playing purposes, and more than 100,000 people will want to use their X-Boxes (and buy more X-Boxes) exclusively for this because hacked sub-PCs are the platform of choice for stability and reliability. Some authors will even make unauthorized games for the X-Box which will sell like hotcakes because the authors are so good that real game companies refuse to hire them for fear of them taking over.

And there is no possible way for Microsoft to fix this issue in future releases of its hardware or games or its online feature.

This is a great loss to Microsoft and will undoubtedly drive them out of business altogether.
</sarcasm>

Get over yourself.

-M5B

You're seeing history here, folks! by RLiegh · 2003-07-03 17:55 · Score: 2, Interesting

This is the EXACT kind of case the the corporations have waited to have fall into their lap. Expect this case to be rationale behind a storm of anti-OSS legislation in the VERY near future.

In short, we're even more screwed than we were before!

Re:You're seeing history here, folks! by silne · 2003-07-03 18:10 · Score: 1

I'm sorry, but how can they legislate to stop people from giving away the source code to something they created? That makes very little sense to me. And wouldn't that kill learning programming at school? I mean, if you could only submit your compiled program, how could they test you on your technique? Of course there's already a lot of nonsensical legislation out there so I wouldn't be surprised to see some..... I guess it's just disturbing to think that as usual the politicians are going to attempt to legislate a problem away.
Re:You're seeing history here, folks! by steve_bryan · 2003-07-03 19:07 · Score: 1

No, you are probably not a nerd, that would require several more IQ points. Linux is a mainstay of an enormous number of server rooms in companies large and small. These companies have influence (you have heard of IBM?) so your prediction has zero probability of coming true.

This result illustrates that 'no good deed goes unpunished'. The group should have simply posted the exploit instead of trying to help Microsoft limit the copyright infringement that would accompany and dwarf any linux related activity.

isn't this already possible? by shird · 2003-07-03 17:56 · Score: 2, Funny

Isn't this possible already using exploitable games such as 007? Basically he is just running arbitrary code by exploiting a default application (the dashboard) instead of a '3rd party' application (007).

I suppose the main difference may be that it happens on 'boot' rather than in the middle of a game - this may be related to the 'reboot on eject' 'feature' he talks about, but I'm not sure. Anyone care to explain further?

--
I.O.U One Sig.

Re:isn't this already possible? by dougnaka · 2003-07-03 17:59 · Score: 1

No, the 007 exploit still required a simple soldering or joining of jumpers on the xbox motherboard to enable writing to the BIOS. AFAIK.

--
My Linux Command of the Day site : LCOD
Re:isn't this already possible? by shird · 2003-07-03 18:11 · Score: 3, Informative

Yeah it did, and it would also be the case for this exploit as well. But thats only if you want to actually write to the bios. If you just want to load linux then it shouldn't be necessary - it just means you have to load up 007 and exploit it every time you want to boot linux, rather than exploiting the default dashboard.

The ability to write to the bios is a physical restriction which is very unlikley to ever be overcome without some solder. The compononents simply _can't_ write to the bios without the wired connection.

--
I.O.U One Sig.
Re:isn't this already possible? by RTPMatt · 2003-07-03 18:29 · Score: 1

We believe that Microsoft sees hackers as a perfect instrument for increasing the sales of the XBox.

Dammit! i am really thinking about buying one now! but i have such a hard time giving M$ any money.

by the way, does this mean thay get the $100k prize?
Re:isn't this already possible? by Spy+Hunter · 2003-07-03 19:19 · Score: 1

Now, you can boot linux with the 007 hack (involving a memory card), add some files to the hard drive, and have an XBox that boots linux all the time, without having to go through a procedure involving loading a saved game every time. Before if you wanted a permanent Linux XBox, you had to flash the bios, which required opening the case and soldering a physical connection together to enable the write feature of the flash ROM.

--
main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}

Increasing weirdness by warmcat · 2003-07-03 17:56 · Score: 4, Interesting

From the 'statement' link:

Since our attempts to contact Microsoft have become public knowledge our team has been accused of attempting to extort or blackmail Microsoft, this is not true as we have made every attempt possible to make contact with Microsoft to offer the following:

- A complete summary of all hacking technologies (many of these technologies have not been released).
- Source Codes.
- All attacks which have been developed but not yet released.
- To sign a Non-disclosure Agreement regarding our discoveries.
- Further research on exploits, which would be exclusive to Microsoft.
- Full names of all hackers involved upon agreement of legal protection from Microsoft.
- Assistance in the development of future security for the XBox by working with Microsoft.

For the exchange, we were requesting but not demanding the following:

- Complete access to all documentation (chipsets, video etc.) to assist in developing a better Linux for the XBox.
- A signed Linux loader.
- Protection from Microsoft or support if any organisation/government attempted to prosecute members of our team.
- Refunding of the cost occured during the agreement period.

Disclaimer, until a few weeks ago I was very active in Xbox Linux.

This just seems to me to be a cheap attempt to chisel money and personal advantage under the cover of pretending to be doing it for the benefit of Xbox Linux. "Assistance in the development of future security for the XBox by working with Microsoft" indeed!!!!

Anyone who has spent any time with the Xbox Linux project will immediately recognize the author of the "statement" by its novel spelling and tone. It'll be interesting to see just how what goes around is going to come around.

Re:Increasing weirdness by Eyston · 2003-07-03 18:08 · Score: 2, Funny

This just seems to me to be a cheap attempt to chisel money and personal advantage under the cover of pretending to be doing it for the benefit of Xbox Linux.

Yah, releasing it free on the internet is indeed a very cheap attempt to get money.

-Eyston
Re:Increasing weirdness by Troed · 2003-07-03 18:16 · Score: 1

numbnut: Agreed, their motives were a bit weird. It's nice to see them having released the exploit though - I wonder when mainstream press will realise that this is YET ANOTHER buffer overflow in a platform called _secure_ by Microsoft.

This should be a fatal blow to Microsoft's ambitions in the high end market where secure programming is a necessity.

--
it's in my head
Re:Increasing weirdness by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:22 · Score: 1, Interesting

Perhaps "someone" will "figure it out" and post whom they suspect the author is, as an AC...
Re:Increasing weirdness by atam · 2003-07-03 19:59 · Score: 1

However, this group implied from its statement that they have more unreleased (and perhaps more advanced) hacking technologies and attacks. So, the released to the public of this exploit could give them some leverage to further blackmail Microsoft.
Re:Increasing weirdness by Daniel+Phillips · 2003-07-04 00:00 · Score: 1

This just seems to me to be a cheap attempt to chisel money and personal advantage under the cover of pretending to be doing it for the benefit of Xbox Linux. "Assistance in the development of future security for the XBox by working with Microsoft" indeed!!!!

I don't like how it was handled either, but this phrase is probably the operative item: "requesting but not demanding".

--
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
Re:Increasing weirdness by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 16:54 · Score: 0

Andy Green, how about you shut the fuck up you little child.

As soon as the public saw Franz start to contribute to the CVS you ran off and cried like a bitch.

I know for a fact that MS knows about Franz so fuck off!

Go and see ya Xodus or Xecuter buddies and complain to them about how you won't be able to make any more money from them because some of ya buddies just cut down Ubergeek and your money tree!

Re:You can already put linux on PS2.. so why not x by Farrell · 2003-07-03 17:59 · Score: 2, Informative

because Microsoft feers it.... Actually, the reason Linux is on the PS2 is for development reasons, originally. The software running the PS2 is based on linux iirc, so they put out a whole distro or something to work on PS2. Only problem with this is, it's a specialized distro, and I don't think there are any others that boot on PS2(some proprietery program used during boot or something so they didn't have to release the source to it) As for why no XBox.... well, it's Microsoft, I mean, come ON, would you let people change the operating system on your video game system to one that causes problems?

--
I want you to assume that all spelling and grammar errors are intentional. Thank You.

Somewhere in Redmond... by MoeMoe · 2003-07-03 18:00 · Score: 0, Troll

Somewhere out in Redmond, a disgruntled MS worker is looking at this article and getting ready to give Mr. Gates a "special" Independence Day present...

Can't wait to see Bill's face when he turns on his pretty new X-Box and up pops Tux shouting "Do ya like it up the ass Gates?! HUH!?!?!"

--
Business \Busi"ness\, n.;
A scam in which all people involved perceive as beneficial...

Re:Somewhere in Redmond... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:06 · Score: 0

I'm afraid my dear Linux user, that you've got that backwards.

Integer Underflow: by Kelmenson · 2003-07-03 18:01 · Score: 5, Informative

You understand overflow, right? There is a maximum integer that can be stored in a variable, and if you "overflow" this maximum amount, the number wraps around. So 0xffff + 0x0003 = 0x0002.

Underflow is the same, but opposite, making it so you wrap from near zero to a very big number... You say the font size is 0x0003, and the X-Box subtracts 0x0004, and ends up thinking it needs to read in 0xffff more data from the font file...

Both just involved wrapping around the maximum/minimum values a variable can hold.

Re:Integer Underflow: by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:09 · Score: 0

except that at least in the context of computer security an overflow is writing more data into a data area than the application expected, allowing the written data to polute other parts of the program causing malicious code to be executed.
Re:Integer Underflow: by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:27 · Score: 0

So very DUMB...
Re:Integer Underflow: by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:39 · Score: 0

jesus, are you a dumbass?

i bet you thought you were being really clever then. heh.
Re:Integer Underflow: by whaley · 2003-07-03 21:34 · Score: 3, Informative

That's buffer overflow. A buffer is some storage in memory with limited space. Overflow occurs when the program (is forced to) write data after the actual buffer. An integer is a number, and in computers numbers are represented by a limited amount of space (e.g. a byte, or a few bytes) so they can also overflow and underflow. Say the highest possible number is 65535, then adding one more will get you back to 0. Similarly, subtracting one from 0 will then get you 65535.
Re:Integer Underflow: by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 22:40 · Score: 0

no shit, so the point is the guy saying "you understand overflow right" in a security context (buffer overflows) has nothing to do with what these people are talking about.
Re:Integer Underflow: by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 22:57 · Score: 0

I'll make you a deal. You post one link that talks about "hacking " or any computer security exploit where they use the word overflow and mean 0xFF + 0x01 == 0x00 and not a buffer oveflow, and then you can call me a dumbass.
Re:Integer Underflow: by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 00:13 · Score: 0

Look at the topic line. Dumbass!
Re:Integer Underflow: by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 04:40 · Score: 0

Those are two different types of overflow. Just because buffer overflows happen more often than integer overflows doesn't mean that's the only kind. Furthermore, this is about UNDERFLOW, overflow was only brought up for comparison.

Nevertheless, integer overflow is a valid security issue, for example it can lead to a buffer overflow. Say a program takes a number from the input stream, adds a header size, allocates that amount of data, then fills the buffer. If the size from the stream + the header size is larger than what the integer type can hold, the program will allocate a buffer much too small and you'll have a buffer overflow.

In summary: Just because you're used to hearing overflow only meaning one thing, doesn't mean that that is all that it means. (Unless you're an actual security "expert", in which case I hope you don't charge much.)
Re:Integer Underflow: by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 05:39 · Score: 0

Actually, this isn't underflow, it's negative overflow. Underflow is when floating point numbers become so small that all precision is lost. Overflow is when numbers wrap around, even if it is at the minimum value.
Re:Integer Underflow: by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 11:54 · Score: 0

The exploit then reads in 0xffff more data into the malloc'd buffer, it then becomes a heap overflow. By then manipulating the malloc tree bookkeeping info between chunks you can cause an arbitrary 4 byte value to be written anywhere in memory. Probably you'd overwrite a function pointer or the saved return address on the stack, and point it onto the heap (NT has an executable heap). Integer signedness bugs are generally not exploitable in and of themselves, they usually trigger other classes of vulnerabilities in order to do something useful.

What were you people smoking? by rock_climbing_guy · 2003-07-03 18:02 · Score: 1

Our team was of the belief that our attempts to initiate discussions with Microsoft would have been welcomed.

There is not, and never will be a Linux for XBox that Microsoft will not insist is illegal. These companies believe that they have the right to control what people do with their products. And legally, with the DMCA, it just might stand.

This sounds like the DeCSS controvorsy all over again. Hobbyist programmers piss off a big company(s). I would not be surprised at all if these people are hauled into court on *criminal* charges - not civil charges - *criminal* charges that can get you sent off to the federal penitentiary to live with rapists and murdurers.

For you UNIX types, here is my official prediction on Microsoft's response.

rm -rf -DMCA -screw_you /home/nuisiance/XBox/LINUX

--
Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???

Re:What were you people smoking? by probbka · 2003-07-03 19:09 · Score: 1

Going to federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison aren't they?

--
Only requirement for good karma: be pedantic as much and as often as possible.

Looks like they weren't bluffing by gibbo2 · 2003-07-03 18:03 · Score: 5, Interesting

A popular opinion when they threatened to release this was "they're just blackmailing Microsoft, but they've got nothing".

Looks like a different situation now that they've laid their cards on the table.

Good work guys.

Re:Looks like they weren't bluffing by kfg · 2003-07-03 18:32 · Score: 2, Insightful

Yeah, now it looks like they were just blackmailing Microsoft. :)

KFG
Re:Looks like they weren't bluffing by bitflip · 2003-07-03 23:02 · Score: 1

Why did SCO just pop into my head?
Re:Looks like they weren't bluffing by phre4k · 2003-07-04 01:41 · Score: 1

hmm. i read: "I blackmailed Microsoft and all i got was this lousy t-shirt!".

--
"Nobody really checks their email any more. They just delete their spam"

Microsoft? by cperciva · 2003-07-03 18:04 · Score: 1

Microsoft is already threatening them with legal action

Why is Microsoft threatening legal action? Aren't blackmail cases usually handled by the FBI?

Whatever you think of Microsoft, blackmailing them is not a legitimate solution.

--
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid

Re:Microsoft? by evilviper · 2003-07-03 19:13 · Score: 1

I'm not so sure this qualifies as blackmail.

If you told a company: "Unless you fix this feature, I'm not going to buy anything from you again" would that count as blackmail? It has all the proper components to qualify.

--
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant

crap! by mschoolbus · 2003-07-03 18:06 · Score: 2, Funny

Really sucked reading this article as I was finishing up installing a mod-chip into my friend's XBOX with him...

Re:crap! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 20:33 · Score: 0

Really sucked reading this article as I was finishing up installing a mod-chip into my friend's XBOX with him...

Unless your only purpose to install the modchip was to run Linux, you will probably be more happy in the long run. The Modchip allows you to run multiple applications which can be selected from a list. I dont doubt that you could probably execute any of the same applications without the modchip by using this hack, but from what I have read so far, it looks like you are still limited to executing one application by placing the default.xbe and other associated files in the root directory of the C drive. Correct me if I'm wrong please, but thats how it looks.
Re:crap! by mschoolbus · 2003-07-11 08:28 · Score: 1

Actually you can load a new dashboard (Evolution-X), which can execute other applications.

Nice... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:09 · Score: 0

...but still no reason for me to support Microsoft by buying a X-Box. Also I personally dont have use for a X-Box... neither as "Multimedia System" (thats what I have my Mini-ITX Box for :) ) nor as "Gaming Platform".

Re:Nice... by Mascot · 2003-07-03 18:22 · Score: 1

Considering they lose money on every Xbox sold, you'd be doing the opposite of supporting them (until you buy your first game, that is).

They are so Screwed by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · 2003-07-03 18:10 · Score: 1

Let me get this straight. They sent a letter to microsoft telling them that they wanted to work for them to close security holes, in exchange for being able to leagally put linux on the box. They essentially admit that they could do this with out microsoft's help and it would be illeagal. So they didn't get a response and are now doing what they admitted to being illegal and are probaly going to be sued for it. Brillant. Didn't anyone hear of asking for forgiveness rather than permission? Leagally the only thing MS is guilty of is being a jerk. They don't want anyone to have linux on the xbox and they don't want unlicensed or pirated games to be played on the system. Apparently, they would like to have it their way and use their law department to enforce it. Personally, I'm confused as to why anyone would really want to put linux on the xbox. It works just as well on a regular computer. I guess its sort of "cool" and "rebelous". Not really worth being sued over, IMHO.

--
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.

Penny arcade! by Whitecloud · 2003-07-03 18:12 · Score: 1

penny arcade have one of the funniest cartoons they have ever done on linux on xbox, here, check it out its hilarious!

--

Do you need a website upgrade?

MOD parent bitchy by Gzip+Christ · 2003-07-03 18:12 · Score: 1

Don't be so negative - I think there speling and gramar is quite good.

- CmdrTaco

Its now linuXBox !! by supersam · 2003-07-03 18:13 · Score: 4, Funny

MS: Damn it! Doesn't Free-X know we made XBox so that people could play games on it.

Free-X: Err... yes we did just that. We played on it a bit and voila!... its now linuXBox!! *grin*

MS: @#!**@###***

Re:Its now linuXBox !! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:18 · Score: 0

You should consider becoming a full-time writer. That was brilliant.
Re:Its now linuXBox !! by supersam · 2003-07-03 18:22 · Score: 1

should i now?! *heh*
Re:Its now linuXBox !! by burns210 · 2003-07-03 19:17 · Score: 3, Funny

"its now linuXBox!! *grin*"

ahem. that is GNU/linuxXBox, please. :)
Re:Its now linuXBox !! by supersam · 2003-07-03 21:02 · Score: 1

Oh dear!! ... I gnu that!! ... but it apparently slipped my mind!!

so . . . by DrMrLordX · 2003-07-03 18:16 · Score: 1

Linux on Xbox, yippee. Where are the Xbox emulators already?

Oooh, hey, maybe you could run an Xbox emulator on your Xbox this way. wh00t.

Re:so . . . by sean23007 · 2003-07-03 18:29 · Score: 0

In Soviet Russia, XBOX emulates YOU!

--

Lack of eloquence does not denote lack of intelligence, though they often coincide.
Re:so . . . by bhtooefr · 2003-07-04 06:40 · Score: 1

Actually, you could use this (and your tricked-out Athlon XP with Windows 2000) to emulate an XBox with Windows. Use a piracy-enabled version of this bootloader (and maybe a PC emulator) to load an XBox game on Windows, throw gender changers on an XBox to USB converter, plug the controller in, and go. Or, better yet, develop Plex86 to simulate XBox HW (or reverse engineer VMware to simulate those pieces of HW), take an XBox HD image and BIOS image, and run like hell from DMCA preachers!

Base 64 encoding by Stonent1 · 2003-07-03 18:16 · Score: 3, Funny

Since it is on the website, google will probably cache it meaning it will not be lost. :) And even if MS orders to take their site down, google will still have it.

Re:Base 64 encoding by lburdet · 2003-07-04 03:48 · Score: 1

google has all...
google knows all...

all hail google!
Re:Base 64 encoding by blibbleblobble · 2003-07-04 04:09 · Score: 1

"And even if MS orders to take their site down, google will still have it."

But will the next Windows Update cause archive.org to return a host-not-found error in Internet Explorer?

linux on GameCube by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:18 · Score: 0

Linux on GC??

Besides... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:18 · Score: 0

How could they call it Xbox when it couldn't even run X?

Re:I think this will make Xboxen much more popular by Captain+McCrank · 2003-07-03 18:18 · Score: 3, Insightful

This is was a huge mistake. These people have just poked what will turn out to be a very violent and angry grizzly bear. It is well known that Microsoft loses money on each Xbox sold. Microsoft sells Xboxes at a LOSS(!) in the hopes of getting you into the additional content and features like Live. Why in the world would they want people to buy an Xbox, only to install Linux on it and never again be able to play another Xbox game on it???

People who buy Xboxes to install Linux do not buy more Xbox games!!!

This is a Bad Thing because it is only a matter of time before someone starts using this approach to hack Xbox Live. These Assholes were treated way too kindly in the Penny Arcade Comic. All I can say is I loathe these guys the same way I loathe the bored programmers that ruined Quake 1, Quake 2 and Counterstrike. The actions these zealots have taken will inevitably lead to cheating on Xbox Live, which is a real shame. To me, part of the point of paying for Xbox Live is so that I don't have to deal with the same fecal coated cheaters online- if you're caught, you're banz0red. Why is it that some people can't just rub there 2 486s together and be frigging happy w/ their beowulf cluster?
This is a terrible day for gamers.

M$ will make some money... by kkith · 2003-07-03 18:20 · Score: 1

I never throught about buying an XBOX...until now.

Re:M$ will make some money... by kkith · 2003-07-03 18:22 · Score: 1

*thought oops
Re:M$ will make some money... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:47 · Score: 0

If only microsoft didn't make a loss on every xbox sold that is...

Microsoft Dumping X-Box by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:20 · Score: 4, Insightful

The only reason Microsoft has to care about putting another operating system on x-box is because they are dumping them.

Dumping things undervalue as a monopoly is unethical and illegal in many places. I'd like to see that in some news stories, instead of no explanation why microsoft would care at all what someone did with their own bought hardware.

Re:Microsoft Dumping X-Box by Imperator · 2003-07-03 22:43 · Score: 1

And even where it's legal, it's just plain stupid. You ultimately don't have a legal right to control what people do with the hardware you sell them (except in the US), so selling the X-Box at a loss if not a smart move. Why don't they just sell the X-Box at no less than cost and lower the price on games? They could do this in a way that will keep their profits (or losses) constant, and at the same time eliminate most of the incentive to buy a unit just to run something non-MS on it. It seems to me they picked a stupid business model and now they're paying the price.

--

Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
Re:Microsoft Dumping X-Box by Have+Blue · 2003-07-04 02:06 · Score: 1

Dumping is selling products at below *market value*, not cost of production. The console market contains the Playstation 2 and Gamecube, both of which have prices similar to that of the Xbox (and the Gamecube is less). If MS was selling the Xbox for $25, then it could be accused of dumping.
Re:Microsoft Dumping X-Box by GlassHeart · 2003-07-04 07:05 · Score: 1

Dumping things undervalue as a monopoly is unethical and illegal in many places.
Microsoft does not have a monopoly in game consoles. If there was a viable alternative OS (say, MacOS X for the x86) emerging on the scene, and Microsoft starts selling Windows below cost, then you would have a case. Microsoft is also not permitted to leverage its monopoly in the desktop OS, which means that they probably can't bundle an X-Box with every Windows purchase. Using profits from a monopoly product to fund another product, however, is not illegal AFAIK.
Re:Microsoft Dumping X-Box by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 12:48 · Score: 0

"Microsoft does not have a monopoly in game consoles..."

Cheese speak for I am a paid microsoft - convicted for this type of thing - troll. Of COURSE it violates the same laws they just tried to skate out of.

"..product, however, is not illegal AFAIK."

Microsoft is already a convicted monopoly. I believe the X-box situation violates the terms of its agreement, but I suppose it will only stop when Bill Gates is hauled off to jail in handcuffs - a situtation he frequently wishes for other people.

Push here, and this will blow back up in their faces as it deserves to.

Waste of GNU, gains for MS.... by jkrise · 2003-07-03 18:21 · Score: 2, Insightful

The chief reason for the success of GNU, Linux and indeed saome flavors of BSD, is that the hardware is a commodity item and available from multiple vendors. Thus the hardware is an open platform and true competition drives down prices to make it affordable, viable and immune to monopolization.

Now, the XBox is a proprietary piece of shit, and is controlled by a single gorilla (of course, with contributions from a few chimps). What's the motivation of getting GNU and Linux running on this proprietary junk?

MS loses money since they make losses on hardware? Crap! Unless the XBox is sold for under $50, this assumption is ridiculous. Geeks get a sense of revenge when they try to annoy MS? Sorry - MS is too smart for that. If they felt XBox hacks were truly threatening their margins, they'd have let loose SCO or some other SCUD litigation.

Doing geeky things is not the primary or only objective of the GNU connosieurs - the more important reason is to make the software AND the hardware free of encumbrances and/or lock-ins.

The best hacks for the XBox will become meaningless if MS comes out with a new design. The devious statements and logic emanating from the press about the XBox and the hacks - does in fact indicate that some kind of social engg. is at work.
It's like all the brouhaha about the latest Harry Potter - how it's getting stolen, how many millions have sold in the first week, how some cheap folks are trying to obtain illegal copies, etc. It's promoting by making an appeal to criminal insticts.

Cracking an XBox to run Linux is like using a 500MB word-processor to write a 1 page letter. Waste of resources and effort, it profits only MS. Better contribute to some useful GNU projects, such as AbiWord - there's many of them out there that need attention.

--
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....

Re:Waste of GNU, gains for MS.... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 20:13 · Score: 0

You're so right.

But I would suspect that coding 'useful' code is boring. It's a bit like wearning 'sensible shoes'.
Re:Waste of GNU, gains for MS.... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 02:21 · Score: 0

NICE WORK! you posted the same comment TWICE and both got modded to +5
Re:Waste of GNU, gains for MS.... by alienw · 2003-07-04 02:30 · Score: 1

Better contribute to some useful GNU projects, such as AbiWord - there's many of them out there that need attention.

Why the hell don't YOU contribute? Everyone loves to spout off, but few people have the necessary skills. I doubt that anyone working on xbox-linux would have both the skills and the interest to work on Abiword. You do realize that people do this shit for fun, right? If I can have fun improving abiword, I'll do it. If I can have more fun hacking the xbox (a decidedly more interesting activity), then I'll do that. Shut up, stop bitching, read a programming book, and start contributing yourself. That's how free software works.
Re:Waste of GNU, gains for MS.... by jkrise · 2003-07-04 02:54 · Score: 1

"I doubt that anyone working on xbox-linux would have both the skills and the interest to work on Abiword."

Read what you've written. And you'll u'stand you've gone and made a complete fool of yourself. So, someone who knows about North Bridge-South Bridge, 128-bit encryption, bootstrap process etc. (an XBox hacker for you) has less than enuff skills for a word-processor? Crazy.

"You do realize that people do this shit for fun, right?"

Spending $200 for an XBox - not to play games, but to somehow get Linux working on it is some sort of fun game? Breaking securtiy keys, understanding 600 page books on Xbox design, believing all these cock-and-bull logic of MS losing money and sleep over this XBox - only lunatics could call this 'shit for fun'.

"If I can have fun improving abiword, I'll do it."

Some of us do it for money, as well as fun. And a few of us (like me) send some money to help such projects along.

"If I can have more fun hacking the xbox (a decidedly more interesting activity), then I'll do that."

Judging by your post, I doubt you even nkow the architecture of the thing.

"Shut up, stop bitching, read a programming book, and start contributing yourself. That's how free software works."

There are many aspects to free software. They also contribute -- who use, send bug reports, a few dollars and help other misguided folk from wasting their talents and energy from promoting proprietary shit.

--
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
Re:Waste of GNU, gains for MS.... by runderwo · 2003-07-04 03:39 · Score: 1

Cracking an XBox to run Linux is like using a 500MB word-processor to write a 1 page letter. Waste of resources and effort, it profits only MS. Better contribute to some useful GNU projects, such as AbiWord - there's many of them out there that need attention.
I think baseball is a waste of time. It's stupid! Throwing and hitting a ball around; it does nothing to contribute to the progress of society. Why don't all those baseball players do something useful like construction work, or become doctors or fire fighters? Until they do, they are simply wasting their efforts on such a stupid thing as baseball.

--
LRC, the best-read libertarian site on the web
Re:Waste of GNU, gains for MS.... by alienw · 2003-07-04 07:41 · Score: 1

So, someone who knows about North Bridge-South Bridge, 128-bit encryption, bootstrap process etc. (an XBox hacker for you) has less than enuff skills for a word-processor? Crazy.

No, not really. It takes different kinds of skills to do these things. A good word processor requires good program design and planning skills, as well as a lot of patience and dedication to perfect it and do the really boring stuff (i.e. hacking Microsoft word formats or fixing GUI bug). Hell, the whole thing seems boring and often unrewarding.

Hacking the xbox requires good hardware skills and some low-level programming experience, as well as a bit of ingenuity. It requires zero planning, zero design, and very little programming, all low-level. This is a totally different kind of work, one that might be much more interesting and possibly more rewarding. What's more exciting, correctly parsing a Word document or getting the Xbox to boot Linux?

Spending $200 for an XBox - not to play games, but to somehow get Linux working on it is some sort of fun game? Breaking securtiy keys, understanding 600 page books on Xbox design, believing all these cock-and-bull logic of MS losing money and sleep over this XBox - only lunatics could call this 'shit for fun'.

What are you smoking? Someone who would want to hack an xbox would rarely, if ever, play games on it. It is extremely fun to try to get it to do your thing if you know what you are doing. That doesn't only apply to the xbox, pretty much all hardware is like that. Hell, part of the fun comes from the fact that there are no 600-page books about xbox design.

Also, hacking rarely involves breaking keys. That's usually the best-designed part of the system. It's like trying to break a strong lock on a glass door.

Some of us do it for money, as well as fun.

You would earn more money more easily if you did almost anything else. It's not a way to become the next Bill Gates.

Judging by your post, I doubt you even nkow the architecture of the thing.

Given that my post has almost nothing to do with the xbox, I don't see where you get that conclusion. You are simply trolling.

There are many aspects to free software. They also contribute -- who use, send bug reports, a few dollars and help other misguided folk from wasting their talents and energy from promoting proprietary shit.

People will do what they want and you are not going to change that. Calling other people "misguided" for contributing to a free project is a little immature. Many successful free software projects are someone's hobby. Do you also criticize model rocket enthusiasts because you think model trains are more useful?
Re:Waste of GNU, gains for MS.... by Black+Hitler · 2003-07-05 11:04 · Score: 1

I think baseball is a waste of time. It's stupid!
I AGREE

Please stop trying to use common sense by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:22 · Score: 5, Funny

This is the law were talking about here. There is no room for such concepts..

Re:Please stop trying to use common sense by Elektroschock · 2003-07-04 07:01 · Score: 1

Where does this law apply?

Download this while you can. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:22 · Score: 5, Informative

Select and copy the uuencoded bit of the message in your browser, then pop open an xterm.

$ uudecode (shift-insert or third mouse button) (return) ^D

This will give you dayX.tgz

You don't know when someone will laywer their way into taking this thing offline. Make it as available as you can.

Re:Download this while you can. by legomad · 2003-07-03 18:50 · Score: 1

I don't understand how to do that.
Re:Download this while you can. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:50 · Score: 0

I'd post it here, but I can't get past the compression filters. Anyone else?
Re:Download this while you can. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:52 · Score: 4, Informative

It's not uuencoded, it's base64. But the uudecode tool will still know how to decode it.
Re:Download this while you can. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:26 · Score: 0

This app works.

http://www.spherical-bytes.com/download.php4?fil e= 1
Re:Download this while you can. by p0z3r · 2003-07-03 20:02 · Score: 0

I have tried using uudecode, and it gives no output.
Re:Download this while you can. by ae · 2003-07-03 21:22 · Score: 1

Just grab it here!

--
Blog Ho
Re:Download this while you can. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 04:48 · Score: 0

It is not going away.. The Full Disclosure mailing list will not succumb to pressure from anyone.

We will not be coerced into removing anything unless of course we are told to by legitimate law enforcement authorities. If this happens, I'll have the EFF involved so quickly it will make their heads spin.

Len Rose

Re:You can already put linux on PS2.. so why not x by GooberToo · 2003-07-03 18:23 · Score: 1

Can you point me to instructions for booting and running linux on a PS2. I've been wanting to do this for a while, without having to purchase Sony's Linux SDK stuff.

The linked article is confusing by Ignorant+Aardvark · 2003-07-03 18:25 · Score: 1

I'm thinking of buying an XBOX for the sole purpose of running Linux on it - it's definitely the cheapest computer available at that price level. That said, the linked article was full of nothing but self-righteousness and really didn't have any content relevant to the exploit they discovered.

Can someone please explain, in English, how I were to go about using this exploit to install Linux on the XBOX I'm thinking of buying? Is a mod chip required? Is NightFire 007 (or whatever) required? Do I need to burn some sort of a bootable CD? Thanks in advance for the (helpful) explanation.

--
Cyde Weys Musings - Scrutinizing the inscrutable

Re:The linked article is confusing by Nucleon500 · 2003-07-03 18:44 · Score: 2, Informative

You either need 007 or a screwdriver. You just replace some files, which you can do either by using the 007 hack or switching HDs. Once the files are replaced, put the XBox back together, and it'll load whatever you want.

--
Litigious bastards
Re:The linked article is confusing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:36 · Score: 0

Ok, but what kind of data has to be stored on the swap hd? Can I extract the X-Box HD, mount in on my computer and modify the files from there -- or...?
Re:The linked article is confusing by tolan-b · 2003-07-03 23:03 · Score: 1

you can, but i'm afraid i can't find a tutorial.

xbox-scene is an excellent site for this sort of thing, and have tutorials for pretty much anything you could want to do here but as i said i can't find the one you need. the site is probably still a good place to start looking though, as it has lots of links to other xbox mod sites.

Off topic...but... by GooberToo · 2003-07-03 18:26 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Does anyone know how to get Linux running on a PS2 without Sony's special boot DVD?

Re:Off topic...but... by mcp33p4n75 · 2003-07-03 18:56 · Score: 2, Insightful

There's other linux distributions that are runnable on the PS2, but honestly, why not just buy the kit? It's reasonably priced, and you won't be able to install GNU/Linux on your PS2 without the hard drive, anyway. Also, you're supporting a company that decided to open up their system somewhat.
Re:Off topic...but... by Nucleon500 · 2003-07-03 18:56 · Score: 0, Offtopic

(silence)
Nobody knows, but nobody cares. See what a little goodwill can do?

--
Litigious bastards
Re:Off topic...but... by GooberToo · 2003-07-04 03:29 · Score: 1

Happen to have any links you can share?
Re:Off topic...but... by bhtooefr · 2003-07-04 07:12 · Score: 1

you won't be able to instll GNU/Linux on your PS2 without the hard drive

Oh yeah?
Re:Off topic...but... by mcp33p4n75 · 2003-07-04 09:02 · Score: 1

Next time, read past the first sentence.
However, seeing as it must use the proprietary RTE on the kit's DVD1, this is not a way of bypassing buying the kit altogether, it would simply allow you to demo some of your work on a friend's PS2 without them having to buy the kit.
Re:Off topic...but... by bhtooefr · 2003-07-04 09:25 · Score: 1

I know. I posted that because it got around the hard drive restriction.

Re:honestly... reverse social engineering by jkrise · 2003-07-03 18:26 · Score: 1, Redundant

I think MS is appealing to the 'supposed' crooked instincts of the Gnu folks.

The chief reason for the success of GNU, Linux and indeed saome flavors of BSD, is that the hardware is a commodity item and available from multiple vendors. Thus the hardware is an open platform and true competition drives down prices to make it affordable, viable and immune to monopolization.

Now, the XBox is a proprietary piece of shit, and is controlled by a single gorilla (of course, with contributions from a few chimps). What's the motivation of getting GNU and Linux running on this proprietary junk?

MS loses money since they make losses on hardware? Crap! Unless the XBox is sold for under $50, this assumption is ridiculous. Geeks get a sense of revenge when they try to annoy MS? Sorry - MS is too smart for that. If they felt XBox hacks were truly threatening their margins, they'd have let loose SCO or some other SCUD litigation.

Doing geeky things is not the primary or only objective of the GNU connosieurs - the more important reason is to make the software AND the hardware free of encumbrances and/or lock-ins.

The best hacks for the XBox will become meaningless if MS comes out with a new design. The devious statements and logic emanating from the press about the XBox and the hacks - does in fact indicate that some kind of social engg. is at work.
It's like all the brouhaha about the latest Harry Potter - how it's getting stolen, how many millions have sold in the first week, how some cheap folks are trying to obtain illegal copies, etc. It's promoting by making an appeal to criminal insticts.

Cracking an XBox to run Linux is like using a 500MB word-processor to write a 1 page letter. Waste of resources and effort, it profits only MS. Better contribute to some useful GNU projects, such as AbiWord - there's many of them out there that need attention.

--
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....

Monopolyt (was) Re:Blackmail by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:27 · Score: 1, Insightful

> A signed Linux loader.

I don't want to encourage the glee of watching 'cock fights', as I don't think its right, but this is shaping up to be watching King George complain about the colonists protesting the tea tax, because it "isn't fair", boohoo.

As a monopoly convicted in court, requiring access to other operating systems on the hardware it is selling -at below market prices- is absolutely a must.

I hope the right people make an issue of this, because this very well may blow up in Microsoft's
face.

how Bill could force a "fix" down your throat by frovingslosh · 2003-07-03 18:29 · Score: 4, Interesting

They could force a fix a number of ways, including if you ever "go live" and connect to them on the internet, but they could also make all future games include a dashboard "update" that would install itself whenever the game is run. So as long as you only run Linux (and they don't sneak anything in through Linux software with a trojan), you might be safe, but if you or anyone else ever plays a game on the x-box that was manufacturered after this date, they could get you.

--
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.

Simple by Groo+Wanderer · 2003-07-03 18:29 · Score: 1

All they need to do is put out a bios update on all games pressed after today, both new ones, and old ones. Drop the wrong disk in, and voila, no nned for you to worry about being a dirty criminal anymore, it just won't happen. No thoughtcrime here anymore good citizen.

-Charlie

Re:Simple by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:19 · Score: 0

Would such games also come bundled with an employee of MS to perform the hardware mod needed to make writing to the BIOS possible?
Re:Simple by Blaze74 · 2003-07-03 19:34 · Score: 1

The thing is the exploitable XBE is still signed. This means that you could copy the exploitable XBE back over the updated one, and re-exploit it.
Re:Simple by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 06:30 · Score: 0

Yes, they would.
But the employee would only flash the BIOS if the new-release game was somehow unable to update the dashboard executable residing on the HARD DISK.

Re:I think this will make Xboxen much more popular by mikeophile · 2003-07-03 18:30 · Score: 4, Interesting

Q4: Is it possible to play "backed-up" games with this?
A4: Yes it is possible to play pirated games by using this vulnerability but my proof of concept code will not allow this. You have to change the exploit to patch the kernel in memory. This is not very hard and I am not going to help you with this.

It seems that eventually the modded exploit will become available as well. So you'll have Linux plus the ability to play Xbox titles.

As far as cheaters go, yes they suck.

Wouldn't you rather be able to run your own Xbox Live server though?

For free?

This is why we shouldn't have powerful companies by tjstork · 2003-07-03 18:31 · Score: 1

You should never challenge a powerful company like this...

What good do they do the public?

--
This is my sig.

No DMCA in Austria by janolder · 2003-07-03 18:33 · Score: 5, Informative

Fortunately, the DMCA has no teeth in Austria where these guys seem to live. Note the reference to a Mr Kritsch working for MS Austria and the somewhat awkward choice of words, mediocre grammar and poor spelling.

If the DMCA continues to be used to shut down what used to be considered fair use, we'll see more and more open source endeavors moving out of the US. Here's to fervently hoping the MPAA/RIAA doesn't manage to implement DMCA clones in all countries on this planet. They seem to be doing a pretty good job at it in Europe.

Re:No DMCA in Austria by breon.halling · 2003-07-03 19:47 · Score: 5, Funny

... the somewhat awkward choice of words, mediocre grammar and poor spelling.

So you're saying they post on Slashdot? ;)

--
"Yeah, well, Dracula called and he's coming over tonight for you and I said okay."
Re:No DMCA in Austria by BESTouff · 2003-07-03 21:25 · Score: 2, Funny

Fortunately, the DMCA has no teeth in Austria where these guys seem to live. Note the reference to a Mr Kritsch working for MS Austria and the somewhat awkward choice of words, mediocre grammar and poor spelling.
Wow, I always thought there was a majority of True Americans on /. and now you tell me all these poorly spelled posts are from some european bastards ?
Re:No DMCA in Austria by infolib · 2003-07-03 21:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

the DMCA has no teeth in Austria where these guys seem to live

The european version of the DMCA, the EUCD came into force in Austria on July 1st. (I even think the directive could be used against them before that, though it hasn't been transcribed into austrian law). The mailing list message was sent on July 4th. (quite symbolically...)

On the other hand, the picture's pretty murky anyway. The EUCD doesn't change the status for computer programs, and that's what we're really talking about here. It's also important that this exploit has several effects. It may be used for playing pirated games, (nono) but it is also a tool for using the X-box for quite legitimate purposes, like building a home media system etc. Also, the exploit is not done on the programs themselves, but on the platform. Then there is the issue of changing the font files. I don't quite get whether they used changed MS font files or rolled their own. If they use changed MS files, MS might be able to go after them on their "artistic rights".

I recommend finding an austrian lawyer. (And a sympathetic judge...)

--
Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
Re:No DMCA in Austria by frdmfghtr · 2003-07-03 23:12 · Score: 1

Free-X had been trying to negotiate with Microsoft, and was requesting the release of a "signed" Linux boot loader, which would allow Xbox owners to run the open source operating system without any hardware modifications or the exploitation of the console. Microsoft would not negotiate, group members have told ZDNet Australia.

The EU has no relevance in this issue.

--
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
Re:No DMCA in Austria by TKinias · 2003-07-04 06:40 · Score: 1

scripsit BESTouff:

Wow, I always thought there was a majority of True Americans on /. and now you tell me all these poorly spelled posts are from some european bastards ?

Indeed, some of the bad English in fact does come from people for whom it is their second or third language. Unfortunately it is the minority I fear...

--
In principio creauit Linus Linucem.
Re:No DMCA in Austria by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 22:10 · Score: 0

Must be why I didn't notice ...

AC

Opera gives blacked-out page by Empiric · 2003-07-03 18:33 · Score: 5, Interesting

If any of you Opera users find the "Free-X Statement" link akin to a Spinal Tap album cover, the site hasn't been defaced or removed. Try another browser, Opera 7.0 appears not to render their page readably. Undoubtedly the site's fault, not Opera's, of course.

(me.)

--
~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?

Re:Opera gives blacked-out page by fucksl4shd0t · 2003-07-03 20:19 · Score: 1

If any of you Opera users find the "Free-X Statement" link akin to a Spinal Tap album cover, the site hasn't been defaced or removed. Try another browser, Opera 7.0 appears not to render their page readably. Undoubtedly the site's fault, not Opera's, of course.
Well, if you were using a browser that anally complied with standards, you wouldn't have to post shit about how your browser sucks, would you?

--
Like what I said? You might like my music
Re:Opera gives blacked-out page by Yosho · 2003-07-04 03:41 · Score: 1

Actually, Opera is rendering the site properly. If you look at the source, you'll notice that in some Javascript at the top of the page, they don't properly close one of their HTML comments. Just like it should, Opera doesn't display anything else on the page, as it's all commented out.

--
Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
Re:Opera gives blacked-out page by fucksl4shd0t · 2003-07-04 21:02 · Score: 1

Actually, Opera is rendering the site properly. If you look at the source, you'll notice that in some Javascript at the top of the page, they don't properly close one of their HTML comments. Just like it should, Opera doesn't display anything else on the page, as it's all commented out.
I don't mean to be too anal, but I went and looked at the page again and identified the line you're talking about. Then I went and looked at the doctype for the page and checked the w3c page with the spec for HTML 4. Had to scroll down a ways to get to HTML 4 Transitional (the doctype for the document in question). I didn't find anything that gave a standard for forming a HTML comment. I did find this text:

Note. Some browsers close comments on the first ">" character, so to hide script content from such browsers, you can transpose operands for relational and shift operators (e.g., use "y y") or use scripting language-dependent escapes for ">".

The line in question on the document in question looks like this:
//->
Note the missing hyphen that is typically there in an HTML comment.

When I first learned html, I learned that all you needed to mark something as a comment was <! and the closing >. The hyphens are optional and make it easier to identify that something is a hyphen. Most syntax highlighting editors I've used look for the hyphens as well (Kwrite, Programmers Notepad on Windows). However, as far as I know, the hyphens are not actually required. A browser is supposed to ignore that which it doesn't understand. Furthermore, those comments are only stuck in the script tags for browsers that don't understand the script. Browsers that DO understand the script are supposed to ignore them and interpret the script.
With all that said, why should Opera choke on this? Why doesn't it just ignore it? I've not pointed several Mozillas and Konqueror 3.1 at that page and seen it all. Why isn't Opera with the program?

--
Like what I said? You might like my music
Re:Opera gives blacked-out page by fucksl4shd0t · 2003-07-04 21:43 · Score: 1

I forgot to mention that in spite of what I said, the page author really needs to go back and add a hyphen. :) It sucks, but all of us web developers really do have to cater to different browsers. I'm not exactly saying that we need to care about Opera, but Opera was on the rise last time I checked, so maybe we should care at least a little bit.

--
Like what I said? You might like my music
Re:Opera gives blacked-out page by Yosho · 2003-07-05 04:53 · Score: 1

Hmm.. Well, the HTML 4.01 spec talks about comments at http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/intro/sgmltut.html#h- 3.2.4, and it seems to indicate that the closing tag should be -->.

What's really strange here is that I was unable to reproduce the problem on my own; I tried making a page that closed comments just like that page did, but it displayed properly in Opera. At first that made me think that the problem might be somewhere else, so I made a copy of the site's page and changed the close-comment tag to -->. Oddly, it worked. The problem may be a combination of a few different things, then.. Anyway, I've e-mailed the site maintainer about it, and I'll keep looking into it.

--
Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
Re:Opera gives blacked-out page by fucksl4shd0t · 2003-07-05 07:09 · Score: 1

That HTML SPec page is pretty vague about the closing comment delimiter. Seems to say that the hyphens are part of the delimiter, but you're allowed to put whitespace between the hyphens and the closing >.
I've heard about Opera for Linux, but haven't actually seen it, so I'm not in a position to screw with it. But I will definitely keep this in mind when I'm making pages. :)

--
Like what I said? You might like my music

To prevent being sued by Argonath · 2003-07-03 18:36 · Score: 3, Informative

..all xbox hackers should use freenet to publish their discoveries. That would give them total anonymity and good night sleep without getting burdened by possible lawsuits.

Re:To prevent being sued by legomad · 2003-07-03 18:56 · Score: 1

Is it really total anonymity?
Re:To prevent being sued by probbka · 2003-07-03 19:14 · Score: 1

They'd never do that. I believe part of their motivation for this is personal fame & glory...

--
Only requirement for good karma: be pedantic as much and as often as possible.
Re:To prevent being sued by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:53 · Score: 0, Insightful

No, and you risk having questionable files (read: child pornography) being stored and shared on your PC without your permission
Re:To prevent being sued by evilviper · 2003-07-03 21:04 · Score: 1

On /., you say that anything gives you total anonymity? That might fly on CNN, but here there needs to be some actual proof.

--
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Re:To prevent being sued by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 01:35 · Score: 0

Yum... child porn.
Re:To prevent being sued by alienw · 2003-07-04 02:35 · Score: 1

Have you actually TRIED using freenet? The network is totally busted. It's written in JAVA, for fuck's sake. I haven't seen anything yet that worked well that was written in java. Not to mention that it is a haven for child pornographers et al. And it might actually store child porn on your hard drive. Finally, it doesn't have the most basic p2p network capability: searching. Basically, avoid freenet like the plague.
Re:To prevent being sued by theLOUDroom · 2003-07-04 06:01 · Score: 1

You should be a bit more careful with your choice of words. Just as there is no "Unbreakable" crypto (please no OTP comments), the is no way to be totally anonymous.

You can only get a certain degree of anonyminity. It's all a question of how much info someone would need to collect.

I say please no OTP comments because it's analogous to making a locked box invincible, by putting it inside an invincible locked box. Yes that would technically make it invincible, but really all you're doing is shifting the burden of security elsewhere. It's a useful thing to do, but it's not really and answer to the question, "How can I secure an information channel?" as it requres another, secure information channel.

--
Life is too short to proofread.

Re:Woops, too late? This is what MS wants.... by jkrise · 2003-07-03 18:37 · Score: 2, Funny

Getting Linux on the XBox without modifications, could very well be an MS effort to compete with HP IBM and possibly even Dell, on the desktop hardware platform. So far, they've made only unwieldly mice, broken keyboards and complicated home WiFi gear in hardware.

The XBox so closely resembles the PC architecture, it could be an MS attempt to make BIOS, motherboard and PC makers superfluous. MS would package the XBox for $100 and offer Linux on a desktop PC! All this subterfuge and publishing hacks is just a way to generate some mometum behind the development of their proprietary piece of junk into a viable desktop platform.

Too late, yes... the industry has moved along, users and partners have become smarter to MS tricks, and the game is up. Sorry MS.

--
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....

Lindows on Xbox by HanzoSan · 2003-07-03 18:39 · Score: 5, Funny

In a few days Michael Robertson will announce Lindows Xbox Edition.

New features? The ability to completely hiijack a competitors hardware technology.

--
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac

Re:Lindows on Xbox by Rogerborg · 2003-07-03 22:36 · Score: 5, Insightful

>The ability to completely hiijack a competitors hardware technology.
Funny, I don't recall leasing an XBox from Microsoft. When I put that money down, as far as I'm aware, I bought it. It became my property.
I wonder, what goods or services am I stealing from Microsoft by running lunix on my XBox?
Their attitude seems to be that after you buy an XBox, you owe them more money in games sales.

--
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Re:Lindows on Xbox by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 00:59 · Score: 0

I wonder, what goods or services am I stealing from Microsoft by running lunix on my XBox?

That's GUN/Lunix.
Re:Lindows on Xbox by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 02:11 · Score: 0, Interesting

You dont own them more money in games sales, but you also dont have the right to tamper with something you have agreed NOT to tamper with. I am sick of all this ego-centric self-serving thinking. Somone (well...microsoft) decided to release something at possible loss but protected by the law, so what right do you have to just violate that? Its selfish and nothing more. Just because you CAN do something doesnt mean you are allowed to under the law. Is there no respect for society here or what? THERE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS THEN YOUR PERSONAL WANTS. Boggle.
Re:Lindows on Xbox by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 02:18 · Score: 0

"No respect for Society"?!?!

There's no respect for Microsoft and other paternalistic, control-freak corporations.

There's lots of respect for the individual and the public domain!

Microsoft is not "society"!

Fanboy.
Re:Lindows on Xbox by MikeFM · 2003-07-04 02:34 · Score: 1

Maybe they should get together with Columbia Record (cd, video, dvd, etc too) Club and see if they can't sell us our XBox and first 3 games for a penny (plus S&H) and then we're legally required to keep buying games on a weekly basis until our poor geek bodies are crushed under the weight of the many discs falling on us.

If you don't sign a contract when you buy the unit stating that you'll buy X number of games for it I do't really see how it can be your fault if they lose money. I mean it's not your fault that they are stupid enough to sell something at a lose.

--
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Re:Lindows on Xbox by Grishnakh · 2003-07-04 03:08 · Score: 4, Insightful

When did anyone ever agree not to tamper with the Xbox? This is a hardware product, not licensed software. You buy it, you own it. After you've paid for it, there are no legal restrictions on what you can do with it--smash it, put it in a closet and never use it, run Linux on it, etc.

Are you an MS employee? Your post is so full of blatant lies I don't see any other possibility.
Re:Lindows on Xbox by JeffTL · 2003-07-04 03:33 · Score: 1

Exactly. There is no licensing on an Xbox (to my knowledge) any more than there is on my Dell tower. When I didn't like the cheapie soundcard Dell gave me, I took it out to CompUSA and got the card replaced. If I had an Xbox, and I didn't like its inability to function like the cheapo PC it is, I'd have the right to try to put a non-castrated operating system on it, which would have to be Linux or BSD because I doubt Windows would run correctly.
Re:Lindows on Xbox by bhtooefr · 2003-07-04 03:38 · Score: 1

So you have a Windows C64 or Apple II Emulator hacked to run on the Xbox? After all, you said you were running Lunix!
Re:Lindows on Xbox by rot26 · 2003-07-04 03:48 · Score: 1

When I didn't like the cheapie soundcard Dell gave me, I took it out to CompUSA and got the card replaced

Say it ain't so.

--

To ensure perfect aim, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target
Re:Lindows on Xbox by Greyfox · 2003-07-04 05:35 · Score: 1

Lets start a fund to buy 10,000 of the things which will then be superglued together into a statue of a giant penis and put on display in Redmond, WA.

--
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Re:Lindows on Xbox by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 08:53 · Score: 0

I mean it's not your fault that they are stupid enough to sell something at a lose.
And it's not our fault your too stupid to spell "loss".
Re:Lindows on Xbox by AceM2 · 2003-07-04 18:53 · Score: 1

This is absolute bs.. I mean, when I hand over $200 or whatever systems cost these days.. I am not agreeing to anything, I don't sign anything, I don't make a verbal agreement, and hell I don't even shake the guy's hand at the electronics store. Legally, they may be in the right, but morally.. No way.. Next thing you know, I won't be allowed to change the spark plugs in my own car..
To me.. When you buy it.. You should be able to do anything you want with it as long as you aren't hurting yourself or other people (I have no idea how you would.. but just saying..)
Re:Lindows on Xbox by Felinoid · 2003-07-05 01:34 · Score: 1

By posting on slashdot you agreed to switch to Linux and mindlessly bash Microsoft.
Well no you didn't but it's as if thats what antiLinux types think happends.
Gee if you could shrinkwrap a liccens on products.
"By buying McDonalds Coffee you agree not to spill it"
"By buying this pack of ciggeretts you agree not to oppose the parent companys bid for world domination."

I don't see any such liccens on the outside of the X Box pacaging.
"By buying our Nintendo products you agree to install Linux on your X box if you ever get one" Ohhh
Um no you actually can't ask any of that. Not legally.
At most "No user servicable parts"
But that gose with out saying.

--
I don't actually exist.

THIS IS THE REASON US IS A TERRORIST REGIME by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:40 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Why Your so-called government doesn't do what you want
it to do.

1). Colin Powell -- Secretary of State, ex-chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff, of Jamaican origin, he has one Jewish ancestor on his father's side. He grew up in a heavily Jewish-populated neighborhood in New York, and speaks Yiddish. The first day of being picked (12/16) he said he wanted to toughen sanctions on Iraq, and will work to "re-energize the sanctions regime."

2). Richard Perle -- One of Bush's Foreign Policy Advisors. He is chairman of the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board. He had worked as Bush's Jewish national security campaign advisor. A very likely Israeli agent, Perle was expelled from Senator Henry Jackson's office in the 1970's after the National Security Agency (NSA) caught him passing Highly-Classified (National Security) documents to the Israeli Embassy. He later worked for the Israeli weapons firm, Soltam.

3). Paul Wolfowitz -- Deputy Defense Secretary, Bush's Jewish foreign policy campaign advisor, close
associate of Israeli agent Richard Perle, and reportedly has close ties to the Israeli military.

4). Robert Satloff -- U.S. National Security Council Advisor, Satloff was the executive director of the
Israeli lobby's "think tank," Washington Institute for Near East Policy. Many of the Israeli lobby's
"experts" come from this front group, like Martin Indyk.

5). Dov Zekheim -- Under Secretary of Defense and Comptroller. He was Bush's Jewish foreign policy
advisor and reportedly holds Israeli citizenship.

6). Douglas Feith -- Under Secretary of Defense and Policy Advisor at the Pentagon. He is a close
associate of Perle and served as his Special Counsel. Like Perle and the others, Feith is a pro-Israel
extremist, who has advocated anti-Arab policies in the past. He is closely associated with the extremist
group, the Zionist Organization of America, which even attacks Jews that don't agree with its extremist
views. Feith frequently speaks at ZOA conferences. Feith runs a small law firm, Feith and Zell, which
only has one International office, in Israel. The majority of their legal work is representing Israeli
interests. His firm's own website stated, prior to his appointment, that Feith "represents Israeli Armaments
Manufacturer." Feith basically represents the Israeli War Machine.

7). Elliott Abrams -- National Security Council Advisor. He previously worked at Washington-based
"Think Tank" Ethics and Public Policy Center. During the Reagan Adminstration, Abrams was the Assistant
Secretary of State,handling, for the most part, Latin American affairs. He played an important role in the Iran-Contra
Scandal, which involved illegally selling U.S. weapons to Iran to fight Iraq, and illegally funding the
contra rebels fighting to overthrow Nicaragua's Sandinista government. He also actively deceived three
congressional committees about his involvement and thereby faced felony charges based on his testimony.
Abrams pled guilty in 1991 to two misdemeanors and was sentenced to a year's probation and 100 hours of
community service. A year later, former President Bush (Senior) granted Abrams a full pardon. He was one of
the more hawkish pro-Israel Jews in the Reagan Administration's State Department.

8). Marc Grossman -- Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs. He was Director General of the
Foreign Service and Director of Human Resources at the Department of State. Grossman is one of many of the
Jewish officials from the Clinton Administration that Bush has promoted to higher posts.

9). Richard Haass -- Director of Policy Planning at the State Department and Ambassador at large. He is
also Director of National Security Programs and Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). He
was one of the more hawkish pro-Israel Jews in the first Bush (Sr) Administration who sat on the National
Security Council, and who consistently advocates bombing Iraq.

10). Henry Kissinger -- One of ma

Re:THIS IS THE REASON US IS A TERRORIST REGIME by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:03 · Score: 0

Better a bunch of kikes than having to deal with the sand niggers and dune coons infesting the middle east.

No FBI in Austria by janolder · 2003-07-03 18:43 · Score: 1

The FBI is not allowed to operate outside the US.

conspiracy theory... by dmszero · 2003-07-03 18:45 · Score: 1

the whole blackmail smells a bit like FUD to me, why would you put what you stand for in disrepute to get what you want? im not buying it... would M$ do something like this? fake an enemy with which to test the DMCA and perhaps spin more anti linux FUD? why arent the FBI involved?

who are these guys? and are we sure that they arent being funded by someone with the express purpose of hurting the movement(sic) from the inside?

tinfoil hats at the ready!

dms0

--
-= world leaders choose world leaders not us, not a democracy, not a revolution! =-

Re:conspiracy theory... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:13 · Score: 0

I am buyin what you're sellin brother.. sounds like a flim flam to me.

its a sad day for microsoft? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 18:47 · Score: 0, Insightful

its a sad day for the linux community. this whole affair is the begining of the end for linux. once you resort to tactics that are exactly what you accuse and vilafy microsoft for using, you lose. this whole "hack the xbox" affair is nothing but a dream come true for microsoft. way to go guys! you made microsoft the victim : )

Australia's most popular beer by Chuck+Chunder · 2003-07-03 18:49 · Score: 0, Offtopic

is Victoria Bitter.

--
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park

Re:Australia's most popular beer by bohoboho · 2003-07-03 18:57 · Score: 1

I'd prefer Emu or Swan.

Dude, they're in AUSTRIA ..Where the hell is that? by Viewsonic · 2003-07-03 18:53 · Score: 5, Funny

And that's exactly what the Microsoft chimps are thinking right now. How the hell are they going to be able to sue someone if they dont even know where the hell it is? I mean, come on, who REALLY knows where Austria is that hasn't been there already? (Looks around) My point exactly. Hell, half the posters on here think its AUSTRAILIA.

Thoughts by knightPhlight · 2003-07-03 18:55 · Score: 5, Interesting

New or old hat? :: This exploit, having been long awaited by linux hackers and warez kiddies both is different from both the 007 and MechWarrior hacks. It doesn't require the retail games making the hack free as in beer. Additionally, both require that the game is executed and a save is loaded to cause the overrun. To do this the disc must be in the DVD drive. Because the Xbox (without a third party BIOS) will reboot when the eject key is pressed, this severely limits what the DVD can contain (such as a bootable linux partition).

Patchable? :: Furthermore, Microsoft cannot permanently patch this hack through an Xbox Live update. Version 1, v1.2, & v1.3 Xboxes will always execute the current vulnerable code. Should they remotely update the dash; one would simply open the Xbox, write an old image to the hard drive, and reboot. In the process it would be trivial to add bert and ernie (the modified fonts). Xbox Live BIOS updates are not possible due to M$ imposed hardware limitations. Of course, third party BIOS updates are not a problem for those willing to open the case and get crazy with a little solder.

Availability? :: Legal or not, at this point it's not an issue for the end user. The base-64 posted by Mr. Esser isn't going away. Proof? Try this...

X-Prize? :: Probably not. This cannot be executed or copied from a third party memory card ala 007. So opening the box is required. Partial payment maybe.

Re:Thoughts by dafoomie · 2003-07-03 19:09 · Score: 1

X-Prize? :: Probably not. This cannot be executed or copied from a third party memory card ala 007. So opening the box is required. Partial payment maybe.

Couldn't you load a simple file manager through the 007 exploit that could copy the files for you? I dunno. I hope so. Though, I still don't think even that would qualify for the prize.
Re:Thoughts by tfoss · 2003-07-03 19:50 · Score: 2, Insightful

This cannot be executed or copied from a third party memory card ala 007. So opening the box is required. Partial payment maybe.

Um, maybe i'm misunderstanding, but doesn't the 007 trick let you run an ftp server on the box? And the current hack involves adding & adjusting some files on the HD (such as with the ftp server) which then allows you to load whatever. So, after the first use of the 007 ftp trick, you have a totally modded system....or am i missing something.
Like this comment says...
-Ted

--
-=-=- Quantum physics - the dreams stuff are made of.
Re:Thoughts by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 20:23 · Score: 1, Insightful

Um, maybe i'm misunderstanding, but doesn't the 007 trick let you run an ftp server on the box? And the current hack involves adding & adjusting some files on the HD (such as with the ftp server) which then allows you to load whatever. So, after the first use of the 007 ftp trick, you have a totally modded system....or am i missing something.

When you use the 007 hack trick, it allows you to boot linux 1 time, then everytime you want to reboot you have to re-use the 007 trick. But it looks like this setup allows you to do either the 007 trick or HD hack trick to put these font files on the system, and once the font files are put into the specific directory, they will auto-execute the default.xbe file (which normally doesn't exist) from the root directory. I'm not positive about this, but I think that without the font files being replaced, you wont be able to execute the default.xbe file, only the xboxdash.xbe (which is also located in the root directory on the C drive).
Re:Thoughts by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 04:46 · Score: 0

Version 1, v1.2, & v1.3 Xboxes will always execute the current vulnerable code.

But it'll take all of 5 minutes for them to fix it, so new XBoxes will not be vulnerable as soon as the sales channel clears.
Re:Thoughts by Black+Hitler · 2003-07-05 11:26 · Score: 1

But it'll take all of 5 minutes for them to fix it, so new XBoxes will not be vulnerable as soon as the sales channel clears.
That'll take ages. You can still find version 1 systems out there, especially outside the U.S.

Be Careful by acxr+is+wasted · 2003-07-03 18:57 · Score: 2, Interesting

You Slashdot guys ought to be cautious about posting links to stories containing the exploit at hand. Remember what happened with the DVD encryption scheme and 2600?

--
"Come on, let's go drink till we can't feel feelings anymore."

OH COME OFF IT by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:01 · Score: 0

You mod up wannabe skinheads and anti-semites like Troed because they have an account.

But the moment an AC does it its -1 time

I see how it is.

Re:OH COME OFF IT by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-08 14:35 · Score: 0

Even worse, some fucknozzle "Underrated"-ed it back up to 0!

This is great, but... by mcp33p4n75 · 2003-07-03 19:01 · Score: 2

Does this mean you are able to install a hard drive without having to add a mod chip? Running GNU/Linux on the XBox is great and all, but a 8/10GB hard drive just doesn't cut it, especially when you're intending for it to be a media hub. It's even worse when you want to both use Linux and play games on the machine. So... will this allow me to use a different hard drive? Explain why or why not this is possible...

Re:This is great, but... by rpresser · 2003-07-04 04:05 · Score: 1
1. If you open the case (and void your warranty) and then go through various machinations, using an external linux machine, to copy the filesystem from the original drive to a new drive, you can replace the original drive with your new drive. This new drive will work in the xbox with the original software or with linux.
2. If you open the case (and void your warranty) and attach a second drive to the IDE. The new drive will be visible under linux.
3. If you attach a USB drive to the controller port using a USBxbox controller cable, the new drive will be visible under linux.
4. (My current plan) You can store the big files on another PC on your LAN and have the xbox-linux machine simply use them, through NFS.

Re:Dude, they're in AUSTRIA ..Where the hell is th by Heartz · 2003-07-03 19:06 · Score: 1

Hell, half the posters on here think its AUSTRAILIA.

Dude, it's AUSTRALIA

in case MS makes /. remove this by cyborch · 2003-07-03 19:07 · Score: 4, Informative

As seen before microsoft does not like people who publish exploits. So I have made an off-US mirror in a country where releasing exploits to the public is still legal...

Well, the damage is done.. by NanoGator · 2003-07-03 19:08 · Score: 5, Interesting

.. I would *strongly* recommend that the Slashdot Community who's been all over this 'Linux on the XBOX' bs start doing something interesting with it, and I mean fast. It would look plenty embarrasing for MS if they went after them for releasing the exploit and then people started making good (and legitimate) use of it. If everybody just wants to play MAME on it with questionably legal ROMs, that won't help Free-X.

Might I suggest a DivX based media server that can rip DVDs? I know that seems to fly in the face of what I just said about MAME, however, its a good use for the XBOX, plus you'd only be ripping DVDs you own and with good reason. "I just wanted to have easy access to my library." Another suggestion would be to set up an XBOX as a TV based info center. It stays on-line all the time on Input 2 (or whatever channel your XBOX is on), when a commercial pops up, flip the channels and get your messages. Heck, set up a browser so that it cycles through your favorite news sites every 30 seconds and scrolls them or something.

At least with something like that, something that the XBOX is better at than a cheap-o PC, the case can be made for wanting to make these mods to the unit. That'll weaken MS's case (they'll probably try to say that copy protection is bypassed or something), plus it'll take a few pokes at the DMCA as well.

I hope are people listening. MS has got an army of lawyers.

--
"Derp de derp."

Re:Well, the damage is done.. by Zork+the+Almighty · 2003-07-03 19:53 · Score: 5, Interesting

Those are some good suggestions. Here's my (ordered) list of Xbox Linux Killer Apps :
Tivo / media server
MAME/Console emulator
Region Free DVD player
highly portable internet game server
video phone (with a USB camera and broadband)
digital camera / MP3 player software (so you don't need a PC)

--

In Soviet America the banks rob you!
Re:Well, the damage is done.. by Zork+the+Almighty · 2003-07-03 20:03 · Score: 1

Actually, I thought about it, and the digital camera kiosk-type thing would probably be the best totally-legit application. A lot of non-technical people now own digital cameras. Suppose they could plug their camera into an Xbox and it would display them on the TV. They could do some basic modifications (rotation, cropping, etc) and save them to the hard disc, as well as delete photos from the camera. Meanwhile, a webserver starts up, and they can give their relatives a URL to view the images also. Killer.

--

In Soviet America the banks rob you!
Re:Well, the damage is done.. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 00:35 · Score: 0

Why would anyone need to convert the XBox into a region-free dvd-player?

Do you live in a country where the gorverment has not made it illegal for vendors to sell region-coded dvd-players?
Re:Well, the damage is done.. by Daniel+Phillips · 2003-07-04 00:39 · Score: 1

.. I would *strongly* recommend that the Slashdot Community who's been all over this 'Linux on the XBOX' bs start doing something interesting with it, and I mean fast. It would look plenty embarrasing for MS if they went after them for releasing the exploit and then people started making good (and legitimate) use of it. If everybody just wants to play MAME on it with questionably legal ROMs, that won't help Free-X.

Might I suggest a DivX based media server that can rip DVDs?

I'd suggest a cluster, as big, powerful and cheap as possible. It would be tough finding a cluster node with more power/buck than the X-box. Especially if the onboard NVidia GPU is used as a vector processor as opposed to just a graphics engine.

--
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
Re:Well, the damage is done.. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 00:46 · Score: 0

Recall that it has a mere 64 MB of RAM, and that upgrading the RAM in that box is hell.
Re:Well, the damage is done.. by bstadil · 2003-07-04 01:15 · Score: 1

highly portable internet game server
Apparently you have never seen one

--
Help fight continental drift.
Re:Well, the damage is done.. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 01:17 · Score: 0

More useful things.

Stock tracker.. punch in your favourite stocks and it tracks them.. be very useful cause you plug it into your tv/enable picture in picture have the xbox stocks in hte pip window and the CNN etc on the main screen..

I like the video phone idea.. that in itself could be killer.. the hardware is robust enough to do it.. just need a broadband connection.

LINUX GAMES.. i mean.. it is afterall a game console, optimized for graphics.. make some solitare things or stuff that "mom" would like.. i mean.. how many people only use their windows machine for spider solitare?? i know TONS.. mahjongg.. etc.. kids games as well.. i mean.. i'd rather have a 2yr old beating on the xbox than the new p4 in the corner.. make a fancy menu loader that any kid can use and a preschool game pack (key wack!) and i'd get one tomorrow just for that.

if someone makes a tivo for it.. that'd be sweet too.
Re:Well, the damage is done.. by Klaruz · 2003-07-04 05:54 · Score: 1

if someone makes a tivo for it.. that'd be sweet too.

People have been using xboxen as a front end for MythTV for a while now. You still need another computer to do the capture/encoding, since the xbox can't capture video. It works fine reading off a hard drive on a network and decoding video though.
Re:Well, the damage is done.. by RyuuzakiTetsuya · 2003-07-04 07:46 · Score: 1

How about a WebTV simulation X implementation? =)

--
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
Re:Well, the damage is done.. by Zork+the+Almighty · 2003-07-04 08:15 · Score: 1

Couldn't you use a USB capture device (although I admit, these are currenty crap) ?

--

In Soviet America the banks rob you!
Re:Well, the damage is done.. by Klaruz · 2003-07-04 15:20 · Score: 1

3 reasons not to do that:

1: USB capture is crap
2: drivers are crap
3: the xbox cpu isn't really fast enough to capture/encode and decode (ala tivo timeshifting) at the same time. At least not at a good quality setting. It's fast enough to decode a stream off a network though.
Re:Well, the damage is done.. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 21:31 · Score: 0

You don't have to decode/encode if you are streaming an mpeg-2 DVB broadcast, and there are USB tools out there to capture those in raw mpeg-2 (decode, stream, store to taste).

I can't seem to actually find a USB socket on the xbox though...
Re:Well, the damage is done.. by Black+Hitler · 2003-07-05 11:28 · Score: 1

Why would anyone need to convert the XBox into a region-free dvd-player? Do you live in a country where the gorverment has not made it illegal for vendors to sell region-coded dvd-players?
In what country is it illegal to sell region-coded players?

I don't understand by sweatyboatman · 2003-07-03 19:11 · Score: 3, Interesting

I think calling this blackmail is a little over the top.

These guys discovered a flaw in the XBOX that Microsoft was unaware of. They contacted Microsoft and informed them of the flaw. Microsoft was not interested. MS refused to discuss the flaw. It's clear from the statement that they tried to talk to MS. MS could have said "We want the information and we want you to sign an NDA and we wont even give you a thank you." But they didn't. Informed of the issue, they ignored it.

The information about the flaw is not Microsoft's property. Nor did Microsoft ever suggest otherwise. The people who discovered it can do whatever they like with the information. In this case, they released it to the public over the web. I don't see how this is blackmail as it is common practice to report bugs (and their exploits) publicly.

--
It breaks my pluginses, my precious!

Re:I don't understand by cmason32 · 2003-07-03 19:19 · Score: 1

blackmail
n. the crime of threatening to reveal embarrassing, disgraceful or damaging facts (or rumors) about a person to the public, family, spouse or associates unless paid off to not carry out the threat. It is one form of extortion (which may include other threats such as physical harm or damage to property).

One can be liable for blackmail even though the action for which you request money is legal. An analogy will help explain blackmail a bit better:

Let's say I have pictures of my boss and his secretary in flagrante delicto. Now, I have the right to send an email to everyone telling them that I have those pictures. Such an activity would be legal. It would be illegal, however, to ask my boss for money and in return not send the email.
Re:I don't understand by aziraphale · 2003-07-03 19:24 · Score: 5, Insightful

It's one thing to phone up MS and say 'I've found out something you might like to know about and keep secret', and another to phone up and say 'I've got some information you might like to know about and keep secret - and I'd like you to pay me money, indemnify me against legal consequences, and give me a job - or I'll release it to the public'.

The fact that when they were ignored, they carried out the implicit threat of releasing the information (implicit in their suggestion that they'd sign an NDA in exchange for money), makes it look like blackmail to me.

It's the demand for personal gain that makes the threat of disclosure into blackmail.
Re:I don't understand by ahoehn · 2003-07-03 20:28 · Score: 2, Interesting

I agree that this is a form of blackmail. We all have dirty little secrets we would like hidden from the general public, and that's why we're disgusted by personal blackmail. But companies have no such protection. We expect full disclosure; if there's anything that can be used as blackmail against a company we invest in, we want to know about it. There's a big difference in the sleazyness factor of corporate and personal blackmail.

That said, I don't like the way they tried to profit from their discovery, but I don't think it's as nasty as when similar things happen in the personal arena.

--
Mod my comments down. It'll be fun.
Re:I don't understand by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 20:51 · Score: 0

This isn't blackmail for the very simple following reason :

You don't use blackmail to get something you already have !

they asked microsoft to have a possibility to run linux on the Xbox. Well, with their hack they already had that possibility.

This isn't even trade for the same reason. This is just an attempt to cover their asses.
Re:I don't understand by Angry+Pixie · 2003-07-03 21:16 · Score: 2, Insightful

Reporting bugs to the public is a good thing. As a Windows user I more than appreciate every bug report that was made possible by a little reverse engineering.

And yes that knowledge the group created from their effort is theirs. Where there are problems is in the way in which the group handled this. They interpreted Microsoft's decision not to entertain them further as a greenlight or disinterest. This was a stupid mistake. They asked for personal rewards for having this information and sharing it with Microsoft. Their indication was that if Microsoft responded in a timely matter, the group would not release the exploit to the public, but would instead keep it under wraps in proviso Microsoft sponsored the development of a Linux product. This is the blackmail aspect. Had Microsoft complied, the group would not be releasing the exploit. We as the consumer or game developer would be ignorant to this horrible security flaw that could enable software piracy - as they put it.

I really wish these kids spoke with an attorney first and gotten advice from some of the more credible members of the Linux community. What they've done is cool and certainly valuable, but it may prove personally devastating.

Right now, I'm really hoping that either I'm wrong or that Microsoft has developed a sense of humor about these things.
Re:I don't understand by aziraphale · 2003-07-03 22:05 · Score: 2, Insightful

Read ALL of the words in their demands. They asked to be kept indemnified in case of legal proceedings against them - that's a big deal in itself. They asked for Microsoft to pay them money. They asked for jobs, for crying out loud.

Yes, they asked for MS to acknowledge open use of the XBox platform, too, but that was only one of their demands.

It's little different to approaching Coca Cola saying you've found out their secret recipe, and you've worked out how to make it taste better (although you had to operate an unlicensed particle accellerator to do some of your technical analysis, so the government might not be too happy with you). At this point, you ask for reimbursement of your expenses, indemnification against the potential government prosecution, and a job on their food science team helping them improve their recipe. Or you'll blow the whole gaff and go public with the secret recipe - and the trick for making it better...

The thing is, in that situation, you could get what you want, but you won't get it by threatening them.
Re:I don't understand by NewtonsLaw · 2003-07-03 22:36 · Score: 4, Interesting

It's not necessarily blackmail.

For example, I uncovered a very significant security flaw in the online banking system of a local bank.

It took me some time to determine the scope, cause and effect of the problem -- and my time is money.

I then contacted the bank I advised them that they had a problem which, if not fixed, would almost certainly be picked up by others -- some of who might not be so benign.

I offered to hand over the results of all my work in return for payment for the time I'd spent (at my normal hourly rate).

They agreed and were most satisfied with the transaction -- since it most likely saved them a small (or large) fortune.

Was I blackmailing the bank?

After all, I wasn't about to hand over the results of my investigation without payment.

No, of course it wasn't blackmail. It was just the same as a plumber saying "I won't fix your toilet unless you pay me."

Of course there was no "threat" involved in my offer -- although if they'd chosen not to pay and fix the problem I may have informed the media that there was *a* problem (customers surely had a right to know if it wasn't going to be fixed)

In the Xbox case, Microsoft were offered a business transaction. The price would have been a signed version of Linux for the Xbox in return for the chance to close off the vulnerability and delay public awareness that it existed.

Clearly Microsoft decided that the price was too high -- after all, they've got to pay that building full of lawyers whether they're actually suing people or not so why not just resort to legal action instead?
Re:I don't understand by Daniel+Phillips · 2003-07-03 23:45 · Score: 2, Insightful

Clearly Microsoft decided that the price was too high -- after all, they've got to pay that building full of lawyers whether they're actually suing people or not so why not just resort to legal action instead?

Not quite right. Microsoft decided that the opportunity to paint the Linux community as a bunch of blackmailers was what they really wanted. They adopted a course designed to get the Free X team to make themselves look as bad as possible, however, to Free X team's, I do not think they took the bait to the extent Microsoft hoped.

Like all of Microsoft's attempts to beat Linux in the court of public opinion, this one will also backfire, and just result in more widespread adoption of Linux.

The Free X team may not fare as well, it's hard to say. If Microsoft attempts to press their claims of blackmail, it's hard to see how they will be successful, given that you can characterize their own business practices as the same or worse. Essentially, they'd have to argue that their own business practices are illegal (which of course they are, as has been established, but that's not something Microsoft wants to draw attention to).

As well, Microsoft could be forced to argue that running Linux on the X-Box is illegal. That would most likely backfire horribly. They wouldn't like it at all if they ended up being compelled by the courts to support Linux on all their hardware. Not just allow it, but actively support it.

In the latter case, I suppose Microsoft could always accuse the judge of blackmail, but I doubt that argument would get very far :-)

--
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
Re:I don't understand by digitalunity · 2003-07-04 05:36 · Score: 1

Repeat after me:

It isn't blackmail

It isn't blackmail

It isn't blackmail

Why?

Because, extortion is to make a demand and a threat. The threat must be threat of an illegal action. In this case, the exploit they released is probably not illegal because it does not enable someone to play unlicensed, or pirated games. It only enables Linux to be loaded. However, that interpretation could be wrong, as the exploit released could be modified to allow the playing of pirated games, thus qualifying it as a technology further enabling someone to pirate games.

Even if it were in the US, the DMCA might not apply to this version of the exploit. If another version was released, that did allow the playing of pirated games, the DMCA would likely apply.

If MS has no legal recourse because of geopolitical boundaries, they will likely ignore it for now, and patch up the XBox Dashboard to prevent usage of the exploit on all XBox units built in the future.

--
You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
Re:I don't understand by Lectrik · 2003-07-04 11:52 · Score: 1

One can be liable for blackmail even though the action for which you request money is legal. An analogy will help explain blackmail a bit better:

Let's say I have pictures of my boss and his secretary in flagrante delicto. Now, I have the right to send an email to everyone telling them that I have those pictures. Such an activity would be legal. It would be illegal, however, to ask my boss for money and in return not send the email.

I have a really good resume, i suggest you let me give it to you to read. If you don't I'll take my happy ass over to your competitor and they'll gladly pay me cash-money to use my superior intellect to reduce the number of sales that you would have had if you hired me.

Heh, if this falls under blackmail, then the job market will fall totally into the big corporation's laps, you can only apply for one job... ever

--
--- As to make my comment seem, by comparison, more intelegent... doodie doodie doodie poop poop poop!
Re:I don't understand by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-05 00:37 · Score: 0

You got to be kidding. Of course it's blackmail. Your plumber analogy is so off the mark that I wonder if you're even serious. It would be more like the plumber getting into your house through the window at night, checking to see whether your pipes are damaged at crucial places that malicious outsiders could take advantage of to flood your apartment, got out of the apartment and called you up the next day and said "hey - I've been checking your pipes when you were asleep, now I want to get paid for all that work. If I'm not, I'll release the information I've found to your enemies so they'll have control over your water supply and so that they may do whatever they want with it."

It's a completely obvious case of blackmail, as are all these situations. It's just that it has become so common nobody thinks about it. The bank in question in all likelyhood recognized your request for what it was, but decided not to take action because they valued the information too highly. In other words, they gave in to your blackmailing.

People think these things are different in computer related settings than elsewhere, for what reason is beyond me. You are a criminal, put simply. The fact that you got what you wanted only shows that you're a criminal who gets what he wants.

See you in jail, script-kiddies by blair1q · 2003-07-03 19:11 · Score: 2, Interesting

Free-X made a threat, and requested valuable consideration to forestall the threat.

bing-bing-bing-bing-bing-bing!

extortion

Hope you like green baloney, chillun.

Re:See you in jail, script-kiddies by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:26 · Score: 0

They're going to federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison. yep they are.

Re:Dude, they're in AUSTRIA ..Where the hell is th by md81544 · 2003-07-03 19:12 · Score: 1

>who REALLY knows where Austria is...? Are you George Bush????

Geography anyone? by Lispy · 2003-07-03 19:13 · Score: 3, Informative

For your Information:
Austria

Australia

Re:Geography anyone? by Kris_J · 2003-07-03 19:51 · Score: 2, Funny

Is this the "Australian" group that's been blackmailing Microsoft that I've been hearing about for a few days now? With an email address ending in .de? No wonder I was so damn confused. Thank you.
Re:Geography anyone? by Lispy · 2003-07-03 22:06 · Score: 1

Informative....neat. ;-)
Re:Geography anyone? by antiMStroll · 2003-07-04 02:50 · Score: 1

Nothing personal meant, but seeing a two-word post of the difference between the concepts 'Austria' and 'Australia' modded +5 Informative scares the hell out of me.

You have got to be kidding! by hayden · 2003-07-03 19:17 · Score: 1

VB is tray slops. For really good beer go for Boags Premium. For getting really pissed on a budget go for anything else (excepting Melbourne Bitter).

Unless we are trying to fool the Americans in which case, it's a ripper beer. Crikey!

--
Nerd: Derogatory term typically directed at anybody with a lower Slashdot ID than you.

Re:I think this will make Xboxen much more popular by evilviper · 2003-07-03 19:18 · Score: 1

Who am I kidding? Bend over Bill, here comes the Penguin!

Yeah, I'm sure we're really gonna be starving Billy out of house and home now.

Or poor Bill. Look what the mean hackers did to him. One day the richest man on the planet. The next day, he's selling apples on the street corner.

Yeah! Hey Bill, take THAT... There, what do you have to say now that you are 0.00000001% less rich than before? HA!

--
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant

Bush: We will not bend to these terrorist demands. by CaptCanuk · 2003-07-03 19:20 · Score: 4, Interesting

These poor guys will be the next to be blown up when 120,000 troops jump them on their way to work. Seriously though, reading their demands, they are very close to blackmail. Microsoft took the same position that the US took in "Air Force One": We will not bargain with terrorists. Sure, they didn't blow anything up or there isn't some ISO you can burn and stick in the XBOX and poof, no security, but they did hold a list of demands that most corporations would have a hard time filling. Video Game Console manufacturers make money on software game title sells (as opposed to losing money on hardware).

"For the exchange, we were requesting but not demanding the following:
- Complete access to all documentation (chipsets, video etc.) to assist in developing a better Linux for the XBox.
- A signed Linux loader.
- Protection from Microsoft or support if any organisation/government attempted to prosecute members of our team.
- Refunding of the cost occured during the agreement period."

Since they requested the following, they were turned down on all accounts. I sincerely hope their lawyers are good enough to stave off microsoft's (who will be working on july 4th all day i'm sure). I also hope this is a first step to sticking in and loading a bootable Suse or Mandrake install CD.

--
---- The geek shall inherit the Earth.

yes by SHEENmaster · 2003-07-03 19:21 · Score: 2, Interesting

Because he doesn't realise this is just a small step for XBox customers.

When Linux first booted on an XBox, that was a big step. Everything since then has been a small step, and will continue to be so until we can just drop a disc into an XBox and boot straight to Linux.

I wish that M$ had given into the demands, or at least an authorized Linux bootloader. That would make things easier for Linux fans everywhere, and it would've prevented the easing up of piracy.

--
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.

Re:honestly... reverse social engineering by rpresser · 2003-07-03 19:22 · Score: 1

The best hacks for the XBox will become meaningless if MS comes out with a new design.

"Meaningless" requires some qualification. The hacks cannot become meaningless to me, because my hardware and firmware are now and will remain under my control: I own one of the first Xboxes released (I actually won it in a contest run by Taco Bell); I do not intend to ever use Xbox Live; very few games actually interest me, because my gaming skill is quite limited. Therefore in all likelihood these hacks (and improved ones based on them) will continue be operable on my hardware indefinitely.

On the other hand, even though I stand still, MS surely doesn't. New xbox models, and firmware or dashboard updates via XBL or released games, will probably render current hacks useless. Their revenue stream isn't going to dry up from direct harm; only from secondary effects like game publishers avoiding the platform. So in this sense, I agree with you.

Cracking an XBox to run Linux is like using a 500MB word-processor to write a 1 page letter. Waste of resources and effort, it profits only MS.

People do such "wasteful" things continuously - because it saves user effort. The effort expended by a machine is pretty unimportant to the user. Xbox hardware is cheap compared to similar commodity machines (for now). Why shouldn't we run linux on them?

Way cheap... by Goonie · 2003-07-03 19:22 · Score: 1

Australian wines are almost the same price in Australia (in AUD) as they are in the US (in USD). That used to make them about half the price, now it's about a third off once you do the conversion.

We rarely bother drinking much else - to get drinkable European wines costs a bomb, and American wines are very expensive and very rare (we only bother importing the good stuff, the rest isn't worth the both).

--

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)

Nice knowing them by Powercntrl · 2003-07-03 19:25 · Score: 1

It's truly a shame they didn't release an exploit that was in the form of an ISO that could just be burned and booted on an Xbox... Cause they're going to end up in federal pound me in the ass prison and won't even have a ShareReactor entry to show for it.

Threatening Microsoft is like taunting a bull - it may seem fun but in the end, you'll get the horns. (Bad pun intended)

--

---
DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.

TOOW maybe now I'll buy an XBOX by taosd · 2003-07-03 19:26 · Score: 1

Probably not tho, the PS2 has so many better games. Besides the PSP is coming out and that's gonna rock. Who cares if I can mod an XBOX? I'll be able to mod my PS2 in the same way so very soon.

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Bitch about it here

Hehe! Mod parent up!!!! by pardonne · 2003-07-03 19:27 · Score: 1

Otherwise the conformist's yapping will go unchecked.

Do you understand what "popular" means? by Chuck+Chunder · 2003-07-03 19:28 · Score: 1

The question was what do Australians drink and the answer is that they drink more VB than any other beer. VB alone accounts for 25% of Australias beer market.

That doesn't mean it's the best beer. Personally I'm working my way through a case of James Squires Amber Ale.

People wishing to read more about Australian Beers might like to peruse this site

--
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park

Re:Do you understand what "popular" means? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:47 · Score: 0

I've started noticing Squire on tap in more and more bars recently.
It's about time we had some decent tasting beer around.
Re:Do you understand what "popular" means? by TheMidget · 2003-07-03 21:18 · Score: 3, Insightful

The question was what do Australians drink and the answer is that they drink more VB than any other beer. VB alone accounts for 25% of Australias beer market.
That doesn't mean it's the best beer.
Correct. Probably more people program in Visual Basic than Java, Perl and Php combined.
That doesn't mean VB is the best programming language, either...
Re:Do you understand what "popular" means? by Tuck · 2003-07-03 21:18 · Score: 1

Amen to that (and no, the sig is not new)

--
$ find /pub -beer "James Squire Amber Ale" -drink
Re:Do you understand what "popular" means? by GregWebb · 2003-07-03 21:31 · Score: 1

Yup. Same as the biggest selling beer in Ireland is Budweiser...

--
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
Re:Do you understand what "popular" means? by aurelian · 2003-07-04 00:35 · Score: 1

Was that a joke?
Re:Do you understand what "popular" means? by aallan · 2003-07-04 00:37 · Score: 1

That doesn't mean it's the best beer...

After all the Yanks drink Bud, and thats not even beer... *shudder*
Al.

--
The Daily ACK - Eclectic posts by yet another hacker

Too easy... by borgdows · 2003-07-03 19:29 · Score: 5, Interesting

It's time now to hack a *real* protection system made by a *real* console maker -> Nintendo Gamecube.

good luck everybody! (and you'll need it)

Re:Too easy... by vandenh · 2003-07-03 21:44 · Score: 1

Been there, seen it, got the T-shirt. Go to Hong Kong and you can buy GCs with external attached CD/HDs so you can play "backup" games.
Anything gets hacked... there are just so many people working on this, that it is just a matter of time.

Like some people have said before, I don't really know how this is going to help the "Linux" community. It will just paint them as illegal hackers that blackmail people and allow people to run pirated software. This is exactly the imagin we DO NOT want if Linux wants to continue to gain ground in the server/big companies market. There is nothing worse for a big IT department than to look like a hobbyist computer geek product.
Re:Too easy... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 22:01 · Score: 0

That will be an interesting challenge. As a proud gamecube owner I must say that I'm really impressed on Nintendo's security efforts. Upto now there are no pirated games available. It's either they really good security measures or people are just not interested (yet).
Re:Too easy... by cws125 · 2003-07-03 22:01 · Score: 1

Sigh.. dude, don't take this the wrong way, but what would be the point? Seriously. To pirate games? "Just because you can"?

The Gamecube (1) has no hard drive and (2) cannot play regular CDs or DVDs. It was designed to play disc-based games, and ALL it can do is exactly that-- play games it loads into memory from a disc.

Even if you broke whatever BIOS, signing mechanisms, and CD authentication procedures the Nintendo Gamecube has, you still need to find out a way to (1) write GameCube discs (2) attach a CD/DVD-rom drive or (3) attach a hard drive to do anything other than its intended purpose.

At least the XBOX on Linux project has some decent goals-slash-legal uses, such as installing Linux on its hard drive, DVD/DivX/etc. playback, serving webpages, emulating MAME, and otherwise behaving as a PC of sorts.

Not all copyright protection is bad-- it's just companies like Microsoft that use it as a tool to keep people from making full use of their legitimately owned hardware. I seriously don't think people hack the XBox just because they can or because they want to pirate games, but because they have a real passion toward resisting the totalitarian restrictions Microsoft has put on the Xbox. "A 8GB hard drive for preloading and saving a few games? I don't think so."
Re:Too easy... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 22:36 · Score: 0

So.. WinXP Server for XBOX would be OK?
Re:Too easy... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 22:39 · Score: 0

Already been done. Give it another week or two and you will see the info on that one.

As far as this exploit goes..Big whoop. I have 1 word for you, updatedash.xbe. If you run a Live! enabled game, it runs this and updates the dashboard file. While I realize that "smart" people can edit the .tgz file and it's contents to make it do what it wants itself to do, whats the point. Microsoft can and will update it no matter what you do. The only true way to get around it is to install a chip.

This just looks bad for the Linux community. Trying to force Microsoft to do anything is ludicrius (sp? it's 5:41 am). Why in the hell would you try to force one of the largest companies in the world to put something on the Xbox that doesnt belong there. ITS A GAMING SYSTEM. ITS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE USED FOR LINUX.

But maybe that's just me. Anything can be hacked. There is no question about that. Companies will continue to put out hardware and software to make money like any business should, but there "freedom fighters" will always be right there to smash it open with a sledgehammer and show everyone whats inside. Which I also think is good. It's hard standing on both sides of the fence sometimes.

My first post..hopefully it was worth it :)

-expunge
Re:Too easy... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 21:57 · Score: 0

Microsoft can and will update it no matter what you do.

How long have you been out of the scene? What desert island have you been living on?

The "arms race" mentality is so 1990s. The crackers won the software copy-protection war - it's over.

It's perfectly possible to stealth completely in software. V****n, the debugger, proved that on the x86 (and yes, the core is portable to the Xbox - with work I'm sure the core could be adapted to a perfectly usable, stable, undetectable software modchip).

That's why TCPA wanted to lock down the PC hardware - but you can still pretend with the latest V****n, to a system you entirely control (i.e., no network outside the VM), that it has a Fritz chip and has correct keys - but even then, a hardware hack (and there is apparently a very usable one) to get all the keys (for the motherboard you want to pretend to be), and boom - Bill's own grandmother couldn't tell the difference.

The Xbox isn't even remotely that good, and a software-only system stealth crack is definitely feasible.
Re:Too easy... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 22:00 · Score: 0

Freeloader goes a long way towards that - at least the import game bit. Of course the tricky bit is still making unlicensed discs that'll fit and read - tricky with consumer hardware, you might have to mod consumer hardware to write the discs, like the GD-ROM. But it *is* possible.
Re:Too easy... by Black+Hitler · 2003-07-05 11:35 · Score: 1

Upto now there are no pirated games available.
Yes there are. Some pirate group started distributing a few ISOs via the usual channels (IRC, Usenet, etc.) just a couple of weeks ago.
Re:Too easy... by SmittyTheBold · 2003-07-05 19:19 · Score: 1

With a proper disc, you could set up a net-boot system.

It could still be useful.

With the processing power available, probably not as useful as the XBox, but surely better than the PS2.

--
± 29 dB

That's what I've been waiting for by jmaatta · 2003-07-03 19:30 · Score: 1

Now I'm going to buy an X-Box. Microsoft should be happy ;)

Re:You can already put linux on PS2.. so why not x by Read+Icculus · 2003-07-03 19:30 · Score: 1

would you let people change the operating system on your video game system to one that causes problems?

Linux - Causing problems since 1991!

--
Anti-social? My code is just platform-specific.

Windows XP by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:31 · Score: 0, Insightful

Okay, so you can install Linux on an xbox, what about Windows XP?? Could you install a regular version of xp or 2000 with this exploit?

Usual hypocricy by TheCabal · 2003-07-03 19:33 · Score: 2, Interesting

I submitted a story about these guys a day or two ago, but of course it was rejected because it painted them in a less than favorable light (blackmail and all).

I'll ask the question again: Is this how the Open Source movement is going to seek legitimacy? By attempting to blackmail people?

Re:Usual hypocricy by ctid · 2003-07-03 20:46 · Score: 1

I'll ask the question again: Is this how the Open Source movement is going to seek legitimacy? By attempting to blackmail people?

This is a meaningless question. This is one group of people. Why do you think that what they are doing is indicative of what the Open Source movement is going to do?

--
Reality is defined by the maddest person in the room
Re:Usual hypocricy by Ciderx · 2003-07-03 22:05 · Score: 1

Look at the replies in this thread. That's why. One group of people did it, a large number of the rest of the community are condoning the actions and the blackmail. There is nothing good for the community's image in any of this at all.
Re:Usual hypocricy by prockcore · 2003-07-03 22:40 · Score: 1

I'll ask the question again: Is this how the Open Source movement is going to seek legitimacy? By attempting to blackmail people?

Yup, two weeks ago, we (the Open Source Movement) held a vote and we decided unanimously to elect these guys the official spokesmen of said movement.

Our question for you is: are your posts going to be how the Complete Moron Collective is going to express itself?
Re:Usual hypocricy by TheCabal · 2003-07-04 04:30 · Score: 0

Our question for you is: are your posts going to be how the Complete Moron Collective is going to express itself?

As above, so below, eh? Let me get this straight: If I'm not following the party line by bashing Microsoft and praising a bunch of people who really aren't in a position to be demanding anything from Microsoft, then I'm somehow a moron?

Sounds like someone is a part of the Rightthink Cabal. Do you have any original thoughts of your own?

Holy shit! by Siriaan · 2003-07-03 19:33 · Score: 1

It worked!

Re:honestly... reverse social engineering by jkrise · 2003-07-03 19:34 · Score: 1

"I actually won it in a contest run by Taco Bell... in all likelihood these hacks (and improved ones based on them) will continue be operable on my hardware indefinitely."

You are assuming:
1. Your hardware will work and/or be supported in it's present form, indefinitely by Microsoft.
2.You'd rather wait for these and better hacks to run Linux, rather than spend $200 for a Walmrt Linux box with warranty.
3. A large number of people get these XBoxes as a gift.

" Xbox hardware is cheap compared to similar commodity machines (for now). Why shouldn't we run linux on them?"

As Microsoft says often, think 3 years down. XBox may be cheap to acquire, but who supports the Linux?
Why should GNU coders take interest in a proprietary plaform controlled by the gorilla they love to hate?
Why invite the wrath of MS over a platform they control, rather than devlop on a platform (Intel/AMD) where they don't have a say?

Some desirable things may be illegal, and not all ileegal acts are desirable.

--
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....

Reverse reverse-engineering... by jkrise · 2003-07-03 19:39 · Score: 1

MS after: Shut up! Sue them! This kind of thing is why we hate open source. They want to take our intellectual property and turn it into an experimental plaything.

RMS, ESR, Linus Torvalds: We told you so! Stop wasting time on this XBox stuff. Now, they've taken your experimental thing, and turned into an intellectual property. Just forget the whole thing, and look into some useful GNU/Linux work!

Geeks, after: Never again we'll touch the XBox.

--
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....

How about Windows? by Jarlsberg · 2003-07-03 19:43 · Score: 3, Insightful

I love linux as much as the next guy, but tell me -- does this hack mean that I can only install linux on the thing, or can I install any OS I want? I think that for MS, it'd be more embarrassing that you need to hack the machine to get an installation of Windows 9X/XP up and running. :)

Re:How about Windows? by rpresser · 2003-07-03 19:46 · Score: 2

The OS will need lots of driver support. It's barely conceivable that you could get Windows 9x running from the dashboard hack, but it would take quite a bit of doing.

Far easier is installing linux on the thing, then using bochs or vmware to run a virtual machine in which you install Windows.
Re:How about Windows? by Jarlsberg · 2003-07-03 20:11 · Score: 1

Ok, got it, thanks.
I have an X-Box that I'm planning to liberate soon. I've heard it makes for a kickass divx-player. :)
Re:How about Windows? by M3wThr33 · 2003-07-03 20:32 · Score: 2, Interesting

That's what this exploit is doing. It's going to allow a lot more people to tinker around with the XBox. I'm really excited about this, because for a small memory card(I can borrow someone else's) and $180, I can have a Divx player or virtually anything. It's only a matter of time before the BIOS can be flashed without touching a screw...
Re:How about Windows? by alienw · 2003-07-04 02:40 · Score: 1

You can't flash the bios. That's disabled in hardware.
Re:How about Windows? by M3wThr33 · 2003-07-04 18:27 · Score: 1

There's always hope or a way around.

If not, I'll find something else.

Geeks are like flowers, they always pop up through concrete no matter how thick you lay it.
Re:How about Windows? by alienw · 2003-07-05 05:20 · Score: 1

Sure there's a way around - you just need to solder a jumper to the mobo. But it's physically impossible to reflash the main bios in an unmodified xbox.

Re:honestly...(oops, forgot the reasoning) by Myuu · 2003-07-03 19:44 · Score: 1

...because the community has hacked the hell out it...

--

forget it.

Thankfully the company is NOT in the US by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:44 · Score: 0

As Nelson would say: HAHA

Re:rejoice by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:45 · Score: 0

I think that hacking the xbox is wrong. All you linux idiots who are trying to put linux on your microwave need to shut the fuck up. If you had the opportunity to create and manage a company like microsoft and make as much money as bill gates you would do the same. Don't say you wouldn't. And as for all you GPL douchebags, ask any programmer if he would like to lose his job because a bunch of pimply faced teenagers don't feel like paying for software, would he understand???? NO. Yeah i agree that software is intellectual property but just because I studied for 5 years to master the art of building a house doesn't mean that I should give it to you for free. Pay for your damn software and quit whining. The reason why the IT/Computer Industry is going down the shitter is because no one wants to pay money for anything. Everyone thinks it should all be free. Ask yourself if you would mind doing your job for free, or not having a job at all because the "open source community" thinks it should be free is ok. All you dipshits want everything for free. fuck you. get a life and then get a job and start paying for shit. THATS THE AMERICAN WAY!

It's all your fault anyways... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:45 · Score: 0

Ain't Paul Hogan/Crocodile Dundee and Men at Work australian?
It's your own countrymen's fault -- because of them, Americans have been embarassing themselves for over 20 years.
So the solution to your problems is to find Paul Hogan and the Men at Work bandmembers and kick their
butts -- or force them to drink Fosters. :-)

Re:It's all your fault anyways... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · 2003-07-03 19:48 · Score: 1

Aussies hate Paul Hogan already.

--
When information is power, privacy is freedom.

This is overrated by Judecca · 2003-07-03 19:46 · Score: 1

If this explotation requires another hack, it is hardly any worse than the hack it requires.

Until someone releases an iso image that can boot up whatever pirated games, or OSes you want without *any* hardware modifications or manual buffer overflows, there is really nothing for microsoft to worry about.

Re:QLD likes XXXX, VB popular down south by tehanu · 2003-07-03 19:48 · Score: 1

In Queensland XXXX is the most popular beer. I grew up in Queensland and I don't remember *anyone* ever drinking VB. It was always Fosters. When I went back there for a conference a few months ago, everyone was still drinking Fosters. Those who are saying Victoria's Bitter (VB) is the most popular Aussie beer are probably Cockroaches (Queenslanders' fond nickname for them, their fond nickname for us are Canetoads - it's to do with footy) or people from NSW or maybe Victoria. I wonder what they drink in Western Australia since they like to be different from the rest of the country.

Re:Woops, too late? This is what MS wants.... by CaptnMArk · 2003-07-03 19:49 · Score: 5, Interesting

People, just buy an mini-itx system. It's much more open, hackable and flexible.

All your Xbox are belong to us by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:51 · Score: 1, Funny

Load linux for great justice!

This is why Microsoft should be broken up by Realistic_Dragon · 2003-07-03 19:52 · Score: 3, Insightful

If Microsoft Entertainment was a seperate company, they would probably be encouraging Linux on the XBox to increase the flexibility of their product and drive up sales - it's working for Sony, SCEE are even hiring staff to help with development of Linux for PS2!

However because they are tied to a company with no interest in seeing Linux get anywhere, they are forced to take every possible anticompetative measure to stop it suceeding.

It's the same with other MS products - the don't produce phone or PDA sync software for Linux... why exactly? Wouldn't it be nice to have access to those extra customers? Oh... but I forget... then they might not need to buy Windows. How about office? If it had been split off at the time of the antitrust trial, and given the level of interest of corps in the Linux desktop, don't you think that there would have been a Office-for-Linux by now? But then you might be able to avoid buying Windows desktops and Windows servers...

They leverage it the other way too, making it easier to use MS products on Windows than anything else - look at the level of integration they have with Outlook. I talked to a guy from Sharp about their Outlook connector for the Zaurus and they said they had a hell of a time getting it to work because Microsoft wouldn't release the lower level APIs to the developer of a Linux PDA.

It's hard to believe that a whole company could be evil, but MS seem to be trying hard.

--
Beep beep.

Re:This is why Microsoft should be broken up by RyuuzakiTetsuya · 2003-07-03 23:07 · Score: 1

wait.

Doesn't lock-out on hardware make it anti-competative to the software companies wishing to develop for whatever bits of hardware's available? I mean, if i have to go through SCEA/SCEE/SCEJ to develop software for the PS2, and they also develop software, doesn't that make it ab it of a monopoly?

--
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
Re:This is why Microsoft should be broken up by jcam2 · 2003-07-04 01:55 · Score: 1

MS has plenty of good reasons to prevent an OS like Linux running on the X-BOX, apart from simple malice. For example, they supposedly sell the console at a loss and make up the money on licencing fees from game developers. If Linux could be used to run un-signed games, then this revenue stream would disappear!

Also, the X-BOX live service avoids the kind of cheating that plagues other multiplayer games by ensuring the clients only run signed non-hacked software. Again, this could be broken if Linux could be used as a loader for artbitrary software ..

Oops. Fosters doesn't own XXXX by tehanu · 2003-07-03 19:54 · Score: 1

Oops. I just realised. Fosters doesn't own XXXX. I wonder why I thought that? Maybe I've been away from QLD too long and not really being into drinking. But be that as it may, XXXX is the most popular drink in QLD and VB down south.

No jails in Australia, only Gaols by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 19:58 · Score: 0

So are they to be deported?

Very first line pretty much sums it up... by NoCashValue · 2003-07-03 19:59 · Score: 4, Funny

"Today is a very said day for Microsoft."

If they can't even spell correctly in the opening sentence of their world-shaking statement, how the hell are people supposed to take them seriously?

Bah.

Re:Very first line pretty much sums it up... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 05:59 · Score: 0

Yeesh,

Just because English isn't someone's first language you feel it is appropriate to completely discredit everything they say.
Re:Very first line pretty much sums it up... by nsxdavid · 2003-07-04 06:59 · Score: 1

I didn't realize their first language wasn't English. Interesting. It just read like someone who has more code skills than grammer/spelling/business skills.

--
David Whatley
Re:Very first line pretty much sums it up... by chefmonkey · 2003-07-04 10:30 · Score: 1

Okay, then, smartass. Write up a three-page document about a security exploit in flawless German.
Re:Very first line pretty much sums it up... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 21:08 · Score: 0

It's spelled grammar, dumbass!
Re:Very first line pretty much sums it up... by nsxdavid · 2003-07-05 04:25 · Score: 1

I know... that was the joke my freind. (wonders if he will get that one)

--
David Whatley

Re:honestly... reverse social engineering by rpresser · 2003-07-03 20:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

You are assuming:
1. Your hardware will work and/or be supported in it's present form, indefinitely by Microsoft.

Since I have not made any hardware modifications to my xbox, my warranty is intact. When that runs out, I run the same risks of non-support that I would if I used the xbox only as a console.

I am not insane; I don't expect indefinite support. Chances are good that when this hardware wears out, I will be happy to simply junk it.

2.You'd rather wait for these and better hacks to run Linux, rather than spend $200 for a Walmrt Linux box with warranty.

In my own situation, I have no real need for a Linux box. I have this xbox. Running linux on it is of equal if not better entertainment value to playing games on it.

3. A large number of people get these XBoxes as a gift.

To repeat myself, I am speaking only of my own situation. I don't have any answers for other people.

As Microsoft says often, think 3 years down. XBox may be cheap to acquire, but who supports the Linux?

In my own situation, linux is "supported" by thousands, across the globe, who publish their support. I have little need for immediate support. The little need I have has been met to date by informal IRC conversations.

Again, I have no answers for others. I would not recommend to a corporate entity that they run a mission-critical web server on an xbox!

Why should GNU coders take interest in a proprietary plaform controlled by the gorilla they love to hate?

The fact is, they do. As long as they do, I am grateful.

Microsoft Ingnorance by Leffe · 2003-07-03 20:06 · Score: 1

Microsoft are ingnorant as usual, this is what they get. If they would just have better public relations they would not be as hated as they are now.

Valve for example has great PR, talking to someone on the team is not hard at all(I guess this is because they do not have 20M+ employees), one on the team even runs a site dedicated to editing/hacking the games they make, and he just got a funny title: The Lord of the SDK ;)

"You should never challenge a powerful company..." by cliveholloway · 2003-07-03 20:06 · Score: 5, Interesting

Right, you mean like these two did?

Terrible waste of time, eh?

.02

cLive ;-)

--
-- Trinity in high heels carrying a whip: The donimatrix - there is no spoonerism

INTEGER UNDERFLOW for dummies by Alsee · 2003-07-03 20:09 · Score: 4, Informative

integer underflow..?

Here's a completely non-technical explanation:

Think of it like a clock. The XBOX loads a number expecting it to be something like 10 minutes. It then subtracts 5 minutes and uses the number. But instead of giving it a number like 10 minutes you give it a number like 2 minutes. Then when the XBOX subtracts 5 from 2 it gets an underflow. It doesn't know about negative numbers. So what is does is it wraps around like a clock. If you look at the 2 minute mark on a clock, then count backwards 5 minutes where do you end up? You end up 3 minuts before the 12. That's 11 hours and 57 minutes. So XBOX thinks that 2 minus 5 equals 11 hours and 57 minutes.

So by giving the XBOX a smaller number than it expects, and letting the XBOX make the number even smaller, it underflows - wraps around - to a really big number. That really big number tells the XBOX to load a HUGE amount of information. More than it's supposed to load. That means you can feed the XBOX any program you want and the XBOX will suck it up and run it.

-

--
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.

Re:INTEGER UNDERFLOW for dummies by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 23:32 · Score: 0

thank you that is such a cool explaination for us tards.
Re:INTEGER UNDERFLOW for dummies by Dalcius · 2003-07-03 23:57 · Score: 1

To be more specific, it will suck up the data you give it and overwrite what is currently in memory. If you can tailor your data to put the right info in the right places in memory, you can overwrite other portions of memory that contain instructions that will later be run with your own instructions.

Now you folks all know how buffer overflows work. Sloppy programming at its best, eh?

Anyone recall the vulnerability Code Red exploited in IIS? That's right. Buffer overflow in code handling the HTTP request (the core of what a webserver handles -- hence, the core of the webserver). Sloppy code in the most important parts. Amusing, to say the least.

--
~Dalcius
Rome wasn't burnt in a day.
Re:INTEGER UNDERFLOW for dummies by Spoticus · 2003-07-04 05:58 · Score: 1

Thanks for that understandable explanation for us non-coders.
Are you a teacher? If not - consider it.

Re:honestly... reverse social engineering by jkrise · 2003-07-03 20:12 · Score: 1

"my warranty is intact. When that runs out, I run the same risks of non-support that I would if I used the xbox only as a console."

This entire discussion is about Linux on the XBox. Not XBox as a console.

"In my own situation, I have no real need for a Linux box. I have this xbox. Running linux on it is of equal if not better entertainment value to playing games on it."

Your situation has little relevance to the topic being discussed, and the points I made at the top.

" I am speaking only of my own situation. I don't have any answers for other people."

And yet, you asked "Why shouldn't we develop Linux on the XBox?" When very few people are in similar situations like you, there's no motivation, that's why.

"linux is "supported" by thousands, across the globe, who publish their support. I have little need for immediate support."

Very few, if any are working on Linux for the XBox. None of the big name distros or IRCs would help you on this.

"Again, I have no answers for others. I would not recommend to a corporate entity that they run a mission-critical web server on an xbox!"

And that's the primary motivation for coders to pay attention to a platform. When this motivation does not exist, they'll boycott the whole effort.

"The fact is, they do. As long as they do, I am grateful."

No, they don't. This whole story is made to appear as if there's lots of people queing up to hack the XBox. Nothing can be farther from reality.

--
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....

Oh dear, how sad. by Moderation+abuser · 2003-07-03 20:14 · Score: 1

The parent got modded Informative rather than Funny...

Speaks volumes.

--
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.

Re:Oh dear, how sad. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 21:15 · Score: 0

nope, just another bit of proof that the majority of mods are brainless morons.

Waste of money to run Linux by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 20:21 · Score: 0

XBox - 64MB memory.
Enough said.

Re:Wilkins' "universal" language is English? by smithwis · 2003-07-03 20:22 · Score: 2, Insightful

I don't understand how to do that.

another way(assuming you have acess to some basic Unix/linux tools) is to...

copy and paste the whole thing begining with:
"begin-base64 644 dayX.tgz..."
..and ending with:
"===="
into emacs(or whatever your prefered editor is(so long as it doesn't insert it's own formatting)) and save it as something like xbox.64
execute uudecode like such:
$uudecode
And to wrap it all up execute tar in the same directory.
$tar xzvf dayX.tgz

There you go. As easy as 1,2,3.

Say hi to Bert and Ernie for me.
-Steve

Re: Help pay for the defense! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 20:30 · Score: 0

Can we get a shirt with the UU code on it? :)

Beautiful by kobotronic · 2003-07-03 20:36 · Score: 1

In your face, chairman bill!

This is a neat hack. Of course you should be able to do anything you want and execute any kind of software you like, on hardware you own.

I don't want to buy a device or platform built to fight actively me and prevent me from fully utilizing my purchase.

However, when such hacks become available, I sometimes make compromises... I happily purchase DVD players that can be region hacked. Last year I purchased an Epson printer with those stupid chips on the ink cartridges only after I found a cheap hack kit to reset the ink cartridge chips and a syringe kit with inexpensive refill bottles. Just maybe I'll get an Xbox now.

Fuck the corporations. Fuck the loss-leader products with their true cost offset by grotesuqely overpriced, proprietary consumables. This is what happens on razors and all the game platforms too.

Re:Wilkins' "universal" language is English? by smithwis · 2003-07-03 20:38 · Score: 2, Informative

execute uudecode like such:
$uudecode

ouch, again, not double checking enough has bit me again. That should read

$uudecode < xbox.64

Re:honestly... reverse social engineering by rpresser · 2003-07-03 20:41 · Score: 1

And yet, you asked "Why shouldn't we develop Linux on the XBox?" When very few people are in similar situations like you, there's no motivation, that's why. Actually, I asked "Why shouldn't we run Linux on them?" Linux on the xbox is a hobby. I am obviously not the only one with that hobby. This whole story is made to appear as if there's lots of people queing up to hack the XBox. Nothing can be farther from reality. There are more people interested in running linux on the xbox than, say, there are people studying the linguistic origins of Beowulf. Five minutes with google would prove that. Why are you so intent on discouraging people from using linux on the xbox? You remind me of David Sternlight arguing against PGP.

Small man, big company by SamMichaels · 2003-07-03 20:42 · Score: 1, Insightful

If you replace a few words and change the subject to September 11th, this is what you get:

In June of 2000, you could make attempts to contact the president of the USA and tell him you have information about a possible terrorist attack on American soil...in exchange for that information you would want to be a part of the national security and obtain the secrets to how they operate.

He would have ignored you just like Microsoft ignored them. You don't just walk up the front door and ring the bell with these large companies.

Re:I think this will make Xboxen much more popular by Alsee · 2003-07-03 20:43 · Score: 1

It is well known [google.com] that Microsoft loses money on each Xbox sold.

So what? Microsoft has deliberately chosen to sell it at a loss. ANYONE selling anything at a loss is making a caluculated risk, and it's their own fault if they lose money or even go bankrupt.

Why in the world would they want people to buy an Xbox, only to install Linux on it

Who cares what they want? I'm perfectly free to buy two dozen of them and use them as planters if I like. If Microsoft is losing $50 each then they are out $1200 and I have a whole bunch of ugly as hell flowerpots. Maybe I'll grow pot plants in them LOL. If Microsoft doesn't like it then they should stop selling them at a loss. One I bought it I own it and I can do anything I damn well pease with it.

-

--
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.

They had them over a barrel by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 20:45 · Score: 0

They werent threatening them with anything illegal though, this is capitalism at work ... if you want to call it blackmail then any business deal is blackmail.

Re:honestly... reverse social engineering by rpresser · 2003-07-03 20:45 · Score: 1

[reposted in correct format]

And yet, you asked "Why shouldn't we develop Linux on the XBox?" When very few people are in similar situations like you, there's no motivation, that's why.

Actually, I asked "Why shouldn't we run Linux on them?"

Linux on the xbox is a hobby. I am obviously not the only one with that hobby.

This whole story is made to appear as if there's lots of people queing up to hack the XBox. Nothing can be farther from reality.

There are more people interested in running linux on the xbox than, say, there are people studying the linguistic origins of Beowulf. Five minutes with google would prove that.

Why are you so intent on discouraging people from using linux on the xbox? You remind me of David Sternlight arguing against PGP.

linux on xbox? by x0n · 2003-07-03 20:46 · Score: 4, Insightful

Anyone arguing that allowing Linux on an XBox is going to sell more Xboxen is clearly deluded. The only reason people want to put Linux on an XBox (or any other device that is not sold for such purposes) is for reasons of pure hacker fun (weee, look! linux on xbox! take that m$) and also because we all feel we're poking billg in the eye at the same time. Admit it. I do.

- Oisin

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PGP KeyId: 0x08D63965

Re:linux on xbox? by rmohr02 · 2003-07-04 00:59 · Score: 1

Anyone arguing that allowing Linux on an XBox is going to sell more Xboxen is clearly deluded.
Well, I'd buy an XBox if I could put Linux on it easily. That would be one more sale. I believe there are others who feel the same way (but mostly /. readers).

It would mean more sales, but not many more.
Re:linux on xbox? by GoofyBoy · 2003-07-04 01:09 · Score: 1

Its not the point of Linux on Xbox, its copied Xbox games on an Xbox. That will sell loads of Xboxes.

--
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Re:linux on xbox? by x0n · 2003-07-04 01:10 · Score: 1

Of course you would, we all say we would. But really, would you? Why? You already have linux running on well supported and documented hardware. I mean, really, think about it -- give us, the slashdot massive, an introspective into actually what you would _do_ with it other than sit back and chortle. "weeeeeeeeeeeeee!".

- Oisin

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PGP KeyId: 0x08D63965
Re:linux on xbox? by rmohr02 · 2003-07-04 03:19 · Score: 1

It would work as a personal server--I seem to reformat my PC often, but I could use this for stuff I don't want to keep backing up. Also, it doesn't require a monitor or keyboard to be plugged in to boot up (one thing I dislike about x86).
Re:linux on xbox? by Phil+John · 2003-07-04 03:21 · Score: 1

I don't agree, one good reason is that these things are fairly powerful, small and also fairly quiet. You will soon be able to pick up used xboxes for £50.00 on ebay (I would expect). Now, imagine buying loads (they've got 100Mbit ethernet too remember) to make a low-cost and compact server farm, all running GNU/Linux with Apache, MySQL, mod_perl, mod_php...you get lots of power in lots of machines for not a lot of money...and it would look really cool too!

(Insert obligatory...imagine a beowulf cluster joke here if you must).

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I am NaN

Re:I think this will make Xboxen much more popular by Alsee · 2003-07-03 20:48 · Score: 1

Bend over Bill, here comes the Penguin!

Damn I wish I had some artistic skills, I'd love to draw and post a picture of that. Bill bent over facing the camera with a big fat penguin coming up behind him. The penguin would have this huge smile on his face. And Bill wouldn't be smiling at all, no sir!

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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.

Re:honestly... reverse social engineering by GunFodder · 2003-07-03 20:49 · Score: 1

Palm is a proprietary hardware design, and it seems to have a pretty healthy developer community. I think Symbian is doing well, and it also only runs on severely constricted hardware.

The XBox is an attractive platform because it is a reasonably powerful computer that costs $180. It has a hard drive, a DVD-ROM drive, and can be networked. And it plays games too :) I don't know if they are still losing money on the consoles, but I challenge you to put together a comparable system for less money.

Someone earlier mentioned the Via mini platforms. The C3 processor in conjunction with crappy onboard graphics makes this platform less powerful than an XBox. The Shuttle type barebones systems are much more powerful and also cost a lot more.

Swallow the party line and try not to think by nagora · 2003-07-03 20:49 · Score: 3, Insightful

By attempting to blackmail people?

It's not blackmail, although MS have painted as such and quite a few people have failed to actually think about it. These guys told MS that they were going to run Linux on their Xbox and it would be easier for everyone, including MS, if they simply had a normal Xbox signed binary. But, they knew they didn't need it if MS didn't want to help.

In other words: We're going to do this the easy way or the hard way, but we ARE going to do it.

MS, no one else, picked the hard way. They had nothing to lose by going the easy way and the fact that they now have a compromised Xbox situation is entirely their own fault.

After all, when MS tells people that they will sue them for running their own software on their own hardware, who exactly is doing the blackmailing? And that question is exactly what open source is all about.

TWW

--
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"

Re:Swallow the party line and try not to think by Have+Blue · 2003-07-04 02:11 · Score: 1

As 500 people have pointed out: They demanded (not requested, I don't care what words they used) something from MS in return for not releasing information which could be damaging to MS. That is the definition of blackmail.
Re:Swallow the party line and try not to think by Alien+Being · 2003-07-04 04:01 · Score: 1

...the definition of blackmail

It's blackmail if I know that my brother-in-law is cheating on my sister and I demand that he pay me or else I'll inform her. But if I tell him that I'm planning to tell her about it tomorrow and that he has until then to come clean, it's just a statement of fact. I'm sure he'd feel threatened, but only because he made himself vulnerable by choosing a poor "marriage model".

They offered MS a chance to participate in the project and MS silently declined.
Re:Swallow the party line and try not to think by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 04:22 · Score: 0

YANAL

From meriam-webster:

2 a : extortion or coercion by threats especially of public exposure or criminal prosecution b : the payment that is extorted

Threatening to tell your sister most definitely falls into the "coercion by threats" category

What was that about him "feeling threatened"?
Re:Swallow the party line and try not to think by TheCabal · 2003-07-04 04:33 · Score: 1

I'm sorry, you don't get to define what blackmail is. YANAL and all that...

This does fall within the letter of the law for blackmail. And now the Open Source movement has to deal with the collective black eye this is going to give them.
Re:Swallow the party line and try not to think by nagora · 2003-07-04 04:46 · Score: 1

I'm sorry, you don't get to define what blackmail is
And you do?
This is not blackmail: they are allowing people to preform legal actions with their own legall held hardware and software. The fact that MS does not want people to do that is MS's problem. They were offered a compromise solution where everybody won and they refused to take it and instead decided to climb on their (illegal) monopoly horse and issue edicts instead. That's being stupid, not being blackmailed.
TWW

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"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Re:Swallow the party line and try not to think by nagora · 2003-07-04 04:51 · Score: 1

They demanded (not requested, I don't care what words they used) something from MS in return for not releasing information which could be damaging to MS. That is the definition of blackmail.
Jesus, how many of you stupid people are there?
They did no such thing. They TOLD Microsoft that they were going to run Linux on the Xbox and that they wanted to do it with their co-operation but that they could and WOULD do it anyway.
They never said that if they got some money or whatever that they would not run Linux on the Xbox.
They did, without having to, ask MS to let them do it the "nice" way. MS refused.
No blackmail, just a statement of fact followed by an offer to let MS negate many negative effects of the action.
Get a clue..
TWW

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"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Re:Swallow the party line and try not to think by Have+Blue · 2003-07-04 05:01 · Score: 1

Yes, asking for money and immunity from prosecution is "nice". And "an offer to negate negative effects of the action" in exchange for the aforementioned concessions is, again, the very DEFINITION of blackmail.
Re:Swallow the party line and try not to think by nagora · 2003-07-04 05:35 · Score: 1

Yes, asking for money and immunity from prosecution is "nice"
Can you point to anywhere that shows these guys asking for money? Asking for immunity from prosecution is fair enough since they've not done anything illegal or immoral. Not that that's a defence when you've annoyed Bill, of course.
And "an offer to negate negative effects of the action" in exchange for the aforementioned concessions is, again, the very DEFINITION of blackmail.
Nope. It's called being cooperative. Once again: they never said they would not make Linux available in return for anything. They said they WOULD make it available with or without MS's help and they have. That MS wants to use its monoply power rather than work with others is typical and that you think MS should be able to dictate what everyone does with their Xboxes is pathetic.
This is a golden example of what open source is about: letting you use your property the way you want to. Tough shit on MS if they can't handle people being free. If you like their attitude why not go and live in China or somewhere where little people aren't allowed to interfere in important people's plans?
TWW

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"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Re:Swallow the party line and try not to think by Alien+Being · 2003-07-04 05:53 · Score: 1

this glossary of legal terms says:

Blackmail is the extortion of money by threats or overtures towards criminal prosecution or the destruction of a person's reputation or social standing.
Re:Swallow the party line and try not to think by FeloniousPunk · 2003-07-04 05:54 · Score: 1

I'm sorry, you don't get to define what blackmail is
And you do?
These guys do.
Honestly, what part of "give in to our demands or we'll do this?" that Free-X said didn't you get? That's the very definition of blackmail.

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I know this because Tyler knows this.
Re:Swallow the party line and try not to think by TheCabal · 2003-07-04 06:24 · Score: 1

No, I don't get to define what blackmail is. But the lawyers do, and my (and several other people's) interpretation of what blackmail is seems to all agree that this case IS blackmail. Now Free-X has gone and sullied the reputation of the OSS movement.

Why would Microsoft want to even consider working with these people? Linux doesn't further Microsoft's goals with the XBox, and I certainly don't blame them for telling Free-X to go fsck themselves.
Re:Swallow the party line and try not to think by nagora · 2003-07-04 06:57 · Score: 1

Honestly, what part of "give in to our demands or we'll do this?" that Free-X said didn't you get?
What part of "Can we have a legal key to sign our Linux distro so we don't have to resort to methods that negate all keys?" do you not understand? MS has brought this on itself. If this was a car company you would laugh at the idea that they could force you to buy only their petrol. Then you would fill 'er up with whatever the hell you liked and tell them where to stuff it.
But apparently monopolistic practices are okay when its Microsoft.
TWW

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"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Re:Swallow the party line and try not to think by nagora · 2003-07-04 07:00 · Score: 1

Linux doesn't further Microsoft's goals with the XBox
Oh, boo-hoo. Since when did buying someone's product put you under an obligation to use it in THEIR besy interests?
Have you ever heard of consumers' rights?
This is exactly what open source should be all about: taking control of your property off those that want you to pay for the priviledge of dancing to their tune.
TWW

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"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Re:Swallow the party line and try not to think by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 08:05 · Score: 0

It's not blackmail, although MS have painted as such and quite a few people have failed to actually think about it. These guys told MS that they were going to run Linux on their Xbox and it would be easier for everyone, including MS, if they simply had a normal Xbox signed binary. But, they knew they didn't need it if MS didn't want to help.

It is kind of obvious why MS wouldn't want to help. Regardless of what these wankers release, even if MS comes out with a signed binary for booting Linux, people will still find out the exploit and do what they please with it. So in that case, MS would be stuck with a signed binary for Linux and people doing the same shit they are probably doing now. Thats why they dont bow to the demands of these blackm.. er "hackers".
Re:Swallow the party line and try not to think by TheCabal · 2003-07-04 15:51 · Score: 1

MS has no obligation to make Linux run on the XBox.
Re:Swallow the party line and try not to think by nagora · 2003-07-04 21:12 · Score: 1

MS has no obligation to make Linux run on the XBox.
And I have no obligation to only run what programs MS tells me to nor do I have any obligation to make their business model work for them.
TWW

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"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Re:Swallow the party line and try not to think by TheCabal · 2003-07-05 00:50 · Score: 1

If you already own an Xbox, you're already helping them. By the way, I want to be able to play my Atari2600 cartridges on my Gamecube. Since Nintento won't help me do this, should I blackmail them?
Re:Swallow the party line and try not to think by nagora · 2003-07-05 07:42 · Score: 1

By the way, I want to be able to play my Atari2600 cartridges on my Gamecube. Since Nintento won't help me do this, should I blackmail them?
Perhaps you should ask them to just let you. If they won't then feel free to find a way to do it anyway. After all, it's your Gamecube, not theirs. What have they got to lose from just giving you the key?
As you say, simply selling an Xbox even to someone that wants to use it for Linux is still a win for MS since they have higher sales figures and can use them to attract developers and boast about in adverts. And does anyone really believe that a linux hacker that has an Xbox laying around would never buy _any_ games? So in the end the "blackmail" consisted of asking MS to help themselves and others. Out of spite they refused and now they've got an open vunerability on their hands. All they had to do was let these guys follow exactly the same route to getting a key as everyone else but they just can't help going for the control-freak option.
TWW

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"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"

this kind of illegal activity... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 20:51 · Score: 0, Troll

is coming to respresent the linux community as a whole. this is a step back for open-source/linux, not a step forward.

Come on! by Martigan80 · 2003-07-03 20:59 · Score: 2, Interesting

- Refunding of the cost occured during the agreement period.

So you are telling M$ that you want to be reimbursed for your work? Technically you are reverse engineering the product. So according to current laws you want to be reimbursed for acting illegally?

I'm just saying that even though we don't like the laws, we are still accountable for them. So they acted willingly to break the laws and then want rights to the design and money?!?!?!

I am all for the advancement of Linux, but come on people.

--
This SIG pulled due to lack of funding. (This damn war is costing too much!)

It might be a flawed business model by goldcd · 2003-07-03 21:09 · Score: 1

but it's the one that the games console manufacturers have chosen to adopt - and it's the one they have to defend. MS was forced to adopt this strategy when they entered the market so they could compete.
Personally I don't really have a problem with it. The cheap purchase price of the console allows more people to access it (I'm especially thinking of myself a good few years back trying to coax my parents to purchase me a console for Christmas) and then imposes a 'tax' on the games. If you're using pocket money you carefully select a few excellent games, if you've got too much you can buy all the crap you like.

Good day Ser Honorable Knight... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 21:14 · Score: 0

I hope your bank account is stacked.

Principles is one thing, keeping my ass alive is another.

The empire will strike back ! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 21:18 · Score: 0

How can you think they will not react to this with massive "courting" or firmware upgrade or whatever solution.

They got the power in their hand. The only way you can stop them is by not buyin anything from them including OS, hardware ... and the 'shoebox' !

XBox is dead alive but there might be opportunities for MS to an XBox2 ;-)

'SLK

Re:Dude, they're in AUSTRIA ..Where the hell is th by Alsee · 2003-07-03 21:24 · Score: 1

Isn't that somewhere between Utah and Wisconsin?

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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 21:25 · Score: 0

that's so sweet.

good for MS for holding out on making a safe boot loader.... better for us in the end.

Sounds typical by The+Master+Control+P · 2003-07-03 21:27 · Score: 5, Insightful

Reminds me strongly of the way typical bug-in-your-code exchanges go with companies:

"There's a flaw in your code."
"There's no flaw in our code."
"I'm telling people there's a flaw in your code."
"Alright, there is a flaw, but we're not fixing it."
"I'm telling people how to exploit this flaw in your code."
"Ok! Ok, we'll fix the bug."

These guys have been telling Microsoft that they can run Linux on an Xbox without a mod chip for months. Microsoft has ignored their warnings about the "flaw" in their "code," so we've now arrived at "I'm telling people how to exploit it." Unfortunately, because the majority of people on capital hill are mildly retarded and/or (emphasis on the "and") corporate bitches, Microsoft will NOT be forced to fix the error, but will simply sue the people who publicize the flaw because it involves encryption.

For those to whom it is NOT already patently obvious, THIS is the danger of the DMCA: Companies that provide defective products involving encryption are NOT forced to repair the error or lose business, they now have the option of silencing the white-hats who try to warn them, and trying to ignore the hordes of black-hats who are now working to duplicate the exploit.

Naturally, when involving open-source software, the DMCA becomes irrelevant, because anyone can see and fix the code: We do not have to wait in the hallowed corporate halls waiting for a magic trinket, and that is what they (in reference to greedy CEO's and their ilk, for whom the pursuit of money has become a late-stage cancer) fear.

Ok, I am done rambling. You may now resume your regularly scheduled indoctrination.

Re:Sounds typical by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 21:31 · Score: 0

do you stand on a box when you talk?
Re:Sounds typical by August_zero · 2003-07-04 05:19 · Score: 1

but this was hardly a matter of them trying to "help" MS by alerting them to an exploit.

I think your talking about pineapples when you ment to talk about oranges here.

--
On Wall Street they say "buy low, sell high" On the pad we say, "buy high, sell high" Isn't that somehow better?

Re:"You should never challenge a powerful company. by kramer2718 · 2003-07-03 21:32 · Score: 1

That was a cool article. Thanks.

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http://yetanotherpoliticalrant.blogspot.com

Moderators! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 21:33 · Score: 0

This was either +1: Funny, or maybe -1: Lame Pun, but certainly not +1: Insightful!

Is a month long enough? by uyfuyfuy · 2003-07-03 21:36 · Score: 1

Microsoft had plenty of time to respond, but they didn't.

A month doesn't seem like very long to me. I think these people are going to run into trouble.

Re:Is a month long enough? by Boltronics · 2003-07-03 23:45 · Score: 1

I think that's more than reasonable given that MS didn't ever bother to respond.

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It's GNU/Linux dammit!

No DMCA in Austria? by KAMiKAZOW · 2003-07-03 21:45 · Score: 1

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but there's a DMCA like law in Austria. Since July 1st to be exact.
Every country in the EU needs to pass a simmilar law.

Here are two links about the new copyright law in Austria (in German):
http://futurezone.orf.at/futurezone.orf?read=detai l&id=157846&tmp=64022
http://futurezone.orf.at/futurezone.orf?read=detai l&id=165149&tmp=65605

Re:I think this will make Xboxen much more popular by Cee · 2003-07-03 21:47 · Score: 1

Why in the world would they want people to buy an Xbox, only to install Linux on it and never again be able to play another Xbox game on it???

Well, I think you still can, according to the Xbox-Linux FAQ:

Will I still be able to play games once Linux is on my hard disk?

That depends on the solution you choose. If you run Linux through the XBE bootloader on an Xbox with a modchip, there's a dual-boot solution. There are also "Live CD's" that make it possible possible to run Linux from a CD without having your hard disk modified at all.
If you use the replacement ROM method, you would have to install both ROMs in parallel to be still able to run games.

Linux's reputation is getting a battering by Ciderx · 2003-07-03 21:52 · Score: 1, Interesting

This whole debacle makes the Linux community looks like little spoilt brats and about a million, billion miles from being a serious competitor to Microsoft. Even this morning, the mad Open Source kid in my team was sqwaking down the phone about this like some immature little hacker. And that's all this is about - getting a one-up over Microsoft over something so, so dumb not for any real purpose but for stupid bragging rights. This whole thing is a sham and anyone who condones this action or the blackmail attempt by this team is a disservice to the Linux community. rant over!

Nice hack... bad idea... by miketang16 · 2003-07-03 21:54 · Score: 1

They were idiots for trying to extort MS and claiming that they weren't trying to. Just read the letter, they mention wanting money for this. However, the hack is a good one, and will probably go along very well with the new project going on to hack the original dash.

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"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
-- George Orwell

s.. k... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 22:01 · Score: 0

Q: Name a certain Russian programmer who got bludgeoned by the DMCA thanks to Adobe...?

Borderless American laws weren't much fun there, were they?

Re:Dude, they're in AUSTRIA ..Where the hell is th by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 22:02 · Score: 0

Hitler was Austrian.

Close enough by alannon · 2003-07-03 22:02 · Score: 1

Dr. Fun Comic

Re:rejoice by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 22:06 · Score: 0

>Everyone thinks it should all be free. Ask yourself if you would mind
doing your job for free, or not having a job at all because the "open
source community" thinks it should be free is ok. All you dipshits
want everything for free. fuck you. get a life and then get a job and
start paying for shit. THATS THE AMERICAN WAY!
>
>
Who gives a shit what you think? Sounds like *YOU* made a bad career choise. You *CANNOT* force me buy or use your shitty software if *I* don't want to. This is the whole point behind and what drives the open source community. We don't owe people like *YOU* a *DAMN THING*. Get over it.

Re:I don't understand being a lackey for the man by quintessencesluglord · 2003-07-03 22:11 · Score: 2, Insightful

Why is it that when some non-corporate entities have the audacity to ask for a finder's fee from a business, it's blackmail? And when a company threatens to litigate unless the peons pipe down and do as they're told, it's just protecting your business interest?

Could you bend over a little more please? Your head isn't as far past your ankles as I would like it to be. Shhheessh!

Beer howto (off topic) by mobileone · 2003-07-03 22:20 · Score: 2, Insightful

Local Fosters; it's shite. VB is likewise shite, however; most of the people I know drink either Boags or Cascade

Never mind the brand. Most of the industrial stuff tastes the same anyway. Real issue is how to effectively order a beer in a crowded bar:

South Australia: A heawy scooner please will cause the bartender to serve you half a liter of West End Super. This however does not work in the rest of Australia where you have to order by Pot (Qld and Vic) or Middie (WA and NSW).

Germany: Ein pils bitte will, after a tapping delay of approximately 5 minutes, get you a local brew from the tab. Due to the latency it is recommended to pipeline the process: Order the next beer when the current beer is delivered. This will guarantee you a new beer every 5 minutes.

Sweden: En stor stark (a large strong) will give you half a liter of 5% beer. For heavy drinking tax-free party ships to Tallin, Gdansk or Oslo are recommended.

Soviet Union Beer was usually out of stock. Vodka or spirt (99% Ethanol) could be bought from the nearest taxi driver. Also good as a substitute for windshield liquid which was also hard to get hold of. In current times I recomment Nevskoe for the St. Petersburg area, although Baltika is usually easier to get hold of.

For better taste you should try Budweiser Budvar from the Czech Republic (Don't confuse this with the cheap US copy of the same name)

Re:Beer howto (off topic) by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 03:08 · Score: 0

Quebec, Canada: Maudite, tabarnac will get you a corked bottle of spiced and aromatic 8% dark red ale. It's very easy to drink too much of this, so Americans used to 3% or so should be very careful.
Re:Beer howto (off topic) by connorbd · 2003-07-04 07:20 · Score: 1

In Boston, any bar that doesn't serve Sam Adams isn't worth the trouble of visiting. Guinness, Bass Ale, and frequently Harpoon IPA are almost always available in anyplace that isn't a total dive as well.
Re:Beer howto (off topic) by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 08:53 · Score: 0

Seconded about Czech Budvar, it's yummy. Be careful though; most Czech beer packs more of a punch than you might expect.

Re:honestly... reverse social engineering by nettdata · 2003-07-03 22:33 · Score: 1

I wonder if they're REALLY afraid of people coming up with their own BIOS and games for the HW, without having to license any of the MS software?

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$0.02 (CDN)

Hellllo!!! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 22:38 · Score: 0

Austria != Austraila :P

I'm sorta confused... by JFMulder · 2003-07-03 22:41 · Score: 1

... you don't need mod-chip to run the exploit but somehow you need to get some hacked files on your memory card first. Something tells me you need a modded Xbox to get the files on the memory card first. Sooooo...... why are they saying you don't need a mod chip? Obviously, you don't need to mod your Xbox to get Linux on it, but someone you know must have done so in order to get the files on the memory card, unless you buy one with the exploit already on it from eBay or something..

Re:I'm sorta confused... by vjzuylen · 2003-07-04 00:04 · Score: 1

Copying files to an Xbox memory card is possible with cheat systems like Action Replay. The CodeJunkies.com website already hosts a number of Xbox save files for use with the Xbox version of Action Replay, so my guess is it's not impossible to use their device for non-save data as well.

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Hee-hee. Dying tickles!

no, that's incorrect. by tolan-b · 2003-07-03 22:44 · Score: 1

At least in the states it is. I know they're not based in the states, but look at Skylarov / Elcomsoft.

With the DMCA it's _not_ legal to tamper with a ('digital')lock, even if you do own it. It's certainly not legal to publish the results of your findings.

However the clause in the DMCA allowing limited reverse engineering for interoperability (in this case with linux) could help them.

But I fear that without some really heavy legal support these guys are never going to be able to holiday in the rockies...

Re:no, that's incorrect. by Alsee · 2003-07-04 08:41 · Score: 1

At least in the states it is... DMCA

I would say that part of the DMCA is unconstitutional, and with a specific reason.

The DMCA makes it a crime to circumvent/descramble. The people who passed the law thought they were outlawing some sort of "tools". The fact is that they were outlawing information/knowledge/thought. Absolutely anything a computer can descramble can be descrambled by pure thought. Any program can be "run" mentally by thinking through the lines one by one. The illegal tools are just the knowledge of how to think it out.

By sitting motionless and thinking I can work through each step and calculation to descramble the "protection" and I can illegally access the content. This part of the DMCA litterally says you can go to prison for up to 10 years just for thinking certain thoughts.

That's what happens when you have self-serving corporations writing abusive new law about technology the legislators don't understand. Most people think computers are magical and mysterious. All they are is a really fast and automated way to work through a series of thoughts/calculations.

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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Re:no, that's incorrect. by Angry+Pixie · 2003-07-04 11:06 · Score: 1

I think the whole of the DMCA is unconstitutional myself because of the economic residual effects that I believe Congress intended, but even if I didn't I' still agree with you on this.

But at this time, and definitely to our benefit, the government hasn't figured out a way to prevent you from using your brain to think up exploits other than limiting access to knowledge on the subject. Hmm.. I think I just made a circular argument here.
Re:no, that's incorrect. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 18:13 · Score: 0

The fact is that they were outlawing information/knowledge/thought.

You're blurring the lines here. The intent of the law was to prevent copyright infringement in the digital world. The effect of it was to outlaw certain types of speech.

By sitting motionless and thinking I can work through each step and calculation to descramble the "protection" and I can illegally access the content.

Similarly, by sitting motionless I can think through what would happen if I yelled "fire" in
a crowded movie theater. Just because you think about it, doesn't make it illegal. Now the thought may be owned by another entity, but it is not illegal.

The real question is: "Is speech detailing circumvention worthy of protection of the first amendment?" And the answer so far from the courts is, "No".
Re:no, that's incorrect. by Alsee · 2003-07-05 06:06 · Score: 1

Similarly, by sitting motionless I can think through what would happen if I yelled "fire" in
a crowded movie theater.

You entirely missed my point, it's not similar at all. You can't actually "yell fire in a theater" and go to prison just by thinking. But you can actually commit the crime of decryption just by thinking. I don't mean thinking about using a computer to decrypt stuff. You DON'T NEED A COMPUTER AT ALL. You can do the actual decryption calculations in your head. You can violate this law using just your brain.

There is a certian sequence of thoughts that work out the exact same thing DeCSS works out. It's just like there is a certain sequence of thoughts you use to figure out the average given a list of numbers. Step one, add up the numbers. Step two count how many numbers there were. Step tree, divide the sum by however numbers there were. You don't need a calculator to find an average, just like you don't need a computer to "run" DeCSS. The law against DeCSS is like a law against finding an average. If they passed a law against finding an average you can violate that law just by thinking. The DMCA sends you to prison if you think certain thoughts.

This goes WAY beyond the first amendment. Lets call it the zero'th amendment - Congress shall pass no law abridging the freedom to think. A freedom of the first amendment cannot exist witout the implied existance of that zero'th amendment. And yes, courts uphold implied rights that are not explicitly listed. For example the right of privacy is an implied right.

-

--
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.

Statement from Bill Gates... by JFMulder · 2003-07-03 22:49 · Score: 4, Funny

"640k underflow should be enough to hack an Xbox."

Re:Statement from Bill Gates... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 01:26 · Score: 0

You are the lamest person on the Internet.

Summary of MS's attitude by Rogerborg · 2003-07-03 22:49 · Score: 4, Insightful

You only leased that XBox. It still belongs to us, in principle, if not (yet) legally in fact because we chose to sell it at a loss. You're not allowed to do anything to it that we don't want you to, nor to tell anyone how to do anything to such things. Ever. Running Linux on it is stealing from us. You owe us more money in games sales, you thief.

Next week: Gilette to sue people who buy one of their razors and then figure out or tell anyone how to remove and resharpen the blades rather than buying more.

Next month: Coca Cola Enterprises Ltd to sue people who buy a bottle of Dr Pepper, drink it, then use it to fetch water from the office water cooler. Damn, that's me busted.

Let's face it, we're only valued customers as long as we're meeting our implicit obligation to continue consuming. The instant we try and (ab/re)use a product without paying more money to the manufacturer, we bcome heartless thieves, possibly communists, maybe even terrorists.

Linux user, why do you hate America so much?

--
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.

Re:Summary of MS's attitude by Queuetue · 2003-07-03 23:29 · Score: 1

I was with you until that third paragraph...

buy a bottle of Dr Pepper, drink it,

Dr. Pepper? Ewww.

then use it to fetch water

Dr. Pepper Water? That's just yuck.
Re:Summary of MS's attitude by Rogerborg · 2003-07-04 01:09 · Score: 1

>Dr. Pepper Water? That's just yuck.
It hits a sweet spot on the fourth refill, but I agree that it's pretty unpalatable up to then. In my defence, it has slightly more caffeine than fat Coke, and Diet Coke makes you grow a tail.

--
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Re:Summary of MS's attitude by Mike+Schiraldi · 2003-07-04 03:48 · Score: 1

Next week: Gilette to sue people who buy one of their razors and then figure out or tell anyone how to remove and resharpen the blades rather than buying more.

Here's how i look at it: If everybody did that, Gilette would go out of business. So it is wrong to resharpen your razor blades, and it ought to be illegal.

Yes, of course i'm kidding.

--

--
Mod up a post Rob doesn't like and you'll never mod again
Re:Summary of MS's attitude by mcgroarty · 2003-07-04 04:06 · Score: 1

Next week: Gilette to sue people who buy one of their razors and then figure out or tell anyone how to remove and resharpen the blades rather than buying more.

Don't laugh. They've already got a patent that prevents anyone from making compatible razor heads. How stupid is that?
Re:Summary of MS's attitude by Cyno · 2003-07-04 14:53 · Score: 1

I think I'm a communist.

"not negotiating with terrorists" by Imperator · 2003-07-03 22:50 · Score: 4, Informative

That's a lie they love to tell. The US negotiates with terrorists all the time. Right now the Bush administration is engaged in intensive negotiations with several Palestinian terrorist groups. (And I'm not calling them terrorists because it's the US-Israeli line, but rather because they detonate bombs in places crowded with civilians.) We negotiate hostage exchanges, "disarmament" (cease fire) agreements, and much more. It all depends on how much we want the terrorists to cooperate. The US (and most other countries) have never had serious policies against negotiating with terrorists, no matter what their propaganda campaigns would like you to believe.

--

Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.

A picture like this? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 22:54 · Score: 0

It's quick and dirty, but her ya go.

Pucker up Bill!

Re: So it's OK If I by dreadlord76 · 2003-07-03 22:59 · Score: 1

Publish the method on how to hack your Garage door opener, So anyone can potentially cause you economic harm? Better yet, I call you, and "request", but "not require", that you give out your garage door code, or else, I will give it out for you. Unless, of course, you pay me enough money to keep me employed, protect me from lawsuits if someone else "happens" to get the code. You can play with what you own all you want. It's the blackmail that is the problem.

RTFA by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 23:04 · Score: 0

It says they explicitly "requested", not "DEMANDED" an annswer. M$ didn't answer - They reported the exploit to benefit XBox game developers.

Too simple? Well they're in Austria anyways. And the last time I watched TV austria was still NOT a part of the US (including their (still!) legal system).

Re:RTFA by frovingslosh · 2003-07-04 04:51 · Score: 1

You can do nearly everything with it and this includes redirecting reads
I read it. But while you might be able to pull off some redirection tricks, the posted boot loader does not. So until someone actually does built a "fix" which locks out all of the potential ways to correct this, it is still very likely that M$ will be able to fix it.
But even more importantly, even though you managed to cut and paste something from the original posting and put a rude RTFA in your heading, perhaps you should read what I posted and try to think for a moment. The exploit loads by using the "dsahboard". But the dashboard is not loaded if a game is booted. So a booted game would face no code that would be redirecting anything, and would be quite able to replace the current dashboard or other parts of the system to stop this exploit from even happening again. I posted that M$ could simply put the fixes in all games that are produced from this day forward (even new slip-stream releases of existing games) and the game would correct the "problem" when it was first run on any machine. I still stand behind that statement. GYHOUYA

--
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Re:RTFA by timeOday · 2003-07-04 07:55 · Score: 1

No matter what Microsoft puts on game disks from now on, *something* has to load and execute it. That something is now out of Microsoft control. You only need to load the dashboard once to compromise the system, after that you're "in" and you can change things besides the dashboard.
Re:RTFA by frovingslosh · 2003-07-04 08:19 · Score: 1

No matter what Microsoft puts on game disks from now on, *something* has to load and execute it. That something is now out of Microsoft control.
No, that something is the BIOS, and this hack does nothing to change that. A new game disc put in a hacked X-box will boot through the BIOS and start running code before the dashboard hack ever gets loaded; so the dashboard hack can't redirect anything and can't stop the game disc from doing whatever it wants, including installing a new dashboard that does not have this vulnerability.

--
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.

Re:Woops, too late? This is what MS wants.... by ecalkin · 2003-07-03 23:17 · Score: 1

i doubt it. the last thing that ms wants is a cheap entry into linux. even if people don't use linux on an x-box on a long term basis, it is *exposure* to linux on the cheap and easy. and i can't see any way that this would be good for ms.

eric

Re:I think this will make Xboxen much more popular by grahamm · 2003-07-03 23:19 · Score: 1

If the loss leader stops leading to the increased sales (of whatever it was meant to lead) then the solution is very simple - increase the price so that it is no longer a loss leader.

Not quite by arafel · 2003-07-03 23:27 · Score: 1

>But the idea isn't to make money off of selling the
>hardware, it's to make money off of selling the
>software.

As far as I'm aware, the plan for most console companies is that the *first* set of consoles lose money on the hardware, since it's new to make, yield is low, etc. By the time it gets more popular, they've done a die shrink, they know how to make it so yield is better, they have a better process etc. - and suddenly, while they're not raking it in, they do also make money from the consoles.

Microsoft misjudged this slightly. Their box consists of chips which are already mostly commodity items, so the price isn't dropping particularly quickly, and certainly not fast enough to make the previous strategy easy.

MOD PARENT UP! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 23:34 · Score: 0

That's hillarious dude.

There's no power greater than X...Windows!. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 23:37 · Score: 0

Got nothing, I just thought the subject was funny.

Funniness and truth. by KjetilK · 2003-07-03 23:51 · Score: 1

Sadly this is not funny, it's true.

Something can be funny, true, and horrifying at the same time. For example, sarcasm can, when used well by a gifted author, be hilariously funny, yet provide the reader with insight that he would not have gotten by reading a "serious" text. That a text about serious matters should not be funny, is a serious misunderstanding, IMHO. Conversely, a unfunny, "serious" text, can be complete garbage. There are many examples of that...

Danish poet and scientist Piet Hein has a nice piece about this, in my poor translation it goes something like:

He who only takes a joke for a joke,
and seriousness only seriously,
he or she has grasped both things
very poorly.

--
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid

Re:Dude, they're in AUSTRIA ..Where the hell is th by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-03 23:52 · Score: 0

Arnold Schwarzenegger is an Austrian

Who is Stefan Esser? by Dulimano · 2003-07-03 23:53 · Score: 1

This guy has really big balls. I guess he uses his real name.

Are here FreeBSD or XBox Linux people who know some celebrity gossip about Stefan Esser?

I googled the guy, and found some pics of him:
http://www.de.freebsd.org/de/gif/hamburg-199 8-06-2 0/m15.jpg
(He is on the right.)

Re:Who is Stefan Esser? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 09:38 · Score: 0

Well this is not me...

I am not the FreeBSD one...

Well I don't get it by jrfonseca · 2003-07-03 23:55 · Score: 1

Somehow, if they simply reported to MS without asking anything back, and made the explot public after a month, it would be OK? Even if it would bring less benefits for both parties than to make an arrangement?

Re:honestly... reverse social engineering by jkrise · 2003-07-04 00:00 · Score: 1

Neither the Palmtops nor the cellphones (running Symbian) pretend to be PCs. The XBox may be just a console, but it's architecture so closely resembles that of the PC. Putting Linux on the XBox could actually be a huge favor to MS. If they somehow make the GPL invalid, then in one stroke they could kill the entire PC industry and become an even bigger h/w and s/w monopoly. A 1600lb gorilla, if you will.

--
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....

Sooo.. did anyone try this? by puntloos · 2003-07-04 00:05 · Score: 1

Im sure this is redundant but I think I fully read this slashdot article and I didnt see this asked.. Hackers and linux afficionados are usually pretty quick on the uptake, did anyone already try this?

And we are not suprised by cluge · 2003-07-04 00:09 · Score: 4, Insightful

If current copyright and IP laws and the interretation thereof were in affect in the mid - 80's what could we expect?

1. PC's would still cost thousands of dollars

2. The only companies to produce BIOS codes would be IBM, and people that paid IBM royalties

3. The Internet would only be available to people in colleges and government - and the content would be heavily censored

4. The only PC manufacture would be IBM and all others would be "illegal copies".

5. All operating systems that ran on PC's would have to be liscenced from Microsoft

6. 20" Rims would have to be liscenced from GM as the own the IP for "the oversized sport tire package"

7. Performance exhaust systems are a Ford product exclusively.

8. CD-R's would have been outlawed and require a liscence to buy or own

9. There would only be 1 word processing program

10."Reverse Engineering" would be a legal term used at your prosecution.

You think it's crazy? Saying that you can buy a game/toy and are not allowed to open it up under penalty of jail - THAT is crazy. Why doesn't MS tell the truth, you didn't BUY anything except the right to use your toy. In actuality, according to their liscence (or my interpretation) that box that you plunked down 200 bucks for isn't even yours. Get used to it, unless there is a revolt, it is the way of the future. You will own nothing - but you will be allowed to use things, provided you pay enough $$$.

--
"Science is about ego as much as it is about discovery and truth " - I said it, so sue me.

Re:And we are not suprised by dafoomie · 2003-07-04 00:30 · Score: 4, Interesting

2. The only companies to produce BIOS codes would be IBM, and people that paid IBM royalties

Compaq secretly agreed to pay IBM royalties on each PC they sold, so IBM would drop the suit. The agreement's existance was a secret until recently.

8. CD-R's would have been outlawed and require a liscence to buy or own
Some countries charge a "tax" on each CD-R sold that goes to the RIAA, because that CD "might" be used to pirate their music. I think Canada and Sweden do this, among others. If they get money on each CD-R, that should constitute a licence to fill it with downloaded music. But I think a lot of crazy things.

5. All operating systems that ran on PC's would have to be liscenced from Microsoft

Refer to the "Microsoft Tax" on most PC's made by the big companies, no matter what OS is on them.

You're dead on though... It's scary to see how much of that is actually going on today.
Re:And we are not suprised by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 01:57 · Score: 0

WRONG!

"3. The Internet would only be available to people in colleges and government - and the content would be heavily censored"

The content was open to everyone, and it WASN'T censored .. the problem was it was so pricy back then no-one else BUT governments and corporations could afford it ...

if that's the case .. why censor it? ... there wasn't anything to hide.

Re:Dude, they're in AUSTRIA ..Where the hell is th by Jarlsberg · 2003-07-04 00:18 · Score: 1

In conclusion: Arnold Schwarzenegger should star in a movie about Hitler.

Will the XBox be the next Dreamcast? by Boltronics · 2003-07-04 00:20 · Score: 1

I seem to recall that the Dreamcast failed primarily due to the ease of which games could be pirated. Is this correct?

I purchased my Dreamcast on EBay from the US which came with an inbuilt modchip - an unexpected suprize. I can't claim to use it to pirate any games with (although I do run Australian games on the US-version console), but I would expect that's what it was intended for.

It seems pirating on the XBox just got one step easier.

--
It's GNU/Linux dammit!

Re:Will the XBox be the next Dreamcast? by puntloos · 2003-07-04 00:31 · Score: 1

Actually the Dreamcast 'mods' were from that point on unnecessary. Software piracy groups could just make their own boot loader and produce CD images that would boot on a clean dreamcast, period.

So no hacks, no copying fonts, no hdd swap or 007 savegame load, nothing needed to play the pirated game, ever.

Why is Linux on XBox so important ? by master_p · 2003-07-04 00:23 · Score: 1

Or is the "hack a Microsoft product" the true motivation behind this ? XBox is a nice console, but if I want to run Linux, I'd rather have a proper PC(very cheap these days).

We'll see if the old maxim holds true by martinde · 2003-07-04 00:29 · Score: 1

"It's easier to get forgiveness than it is to get permission."

Think that MS's lawyers think that way?!

What's wrong with Tux on Xbox? by axxackall · 2003-07-04 00:31 · Score: 1

What's wrong with Tux on Xbox? Is Microsoft scared of GPL and thinks that the firmware (or even a hardware) will "virally" GPLized?

Seriously, I understand that I cannot make illegal copies from my music CD for somebody else - the copyright is protected. But at home I can do whatever I want to do with that CD - it's a first sale concept.

I thought it's exactly the same about everything else I buy for my home: I can rip it apart if I want to. (I know, I cannot kill somebody, but that is certainly a different story)

Besides, are those Xbox hackers in USA? If not, can Microsoft apply local laws of other countries to such hackers? I understand that the laws of USA are very crazy. But there are many other countries where the concept of freedom has not been THAT abused. What's wrong to hack Xbox there?

My point is that Microsoft has no (or little) chances in the court against those hackers, especially if they are in other countries.

--

Less is more !

Two wrongs don�t make a right by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 00:37 · Score: 2, Interesting

I think MS shouldve been told about the vulnerability regardless. And the exploit shouldve been released only after at least one month had passed. Asking Microsoft to support Linux under the threat of immediate disclosure of a vulnerability is just plain wrong and we would all cry foul if this was done to Linux, FreeBSD or Apache.

By the way, I think MS can fix the vulnerability for new systems. For existing users attached to XBox Live, Microsoft can even send a patch thru the net. And for the rest, a CD in the mail would do the trick (with a few extra perks just to get people interested).

is it really illegal by metallikop · 2003-07-04 00:42 · Score: 4, Insightful

How illegal is it what the Free-X group is trying to do? Microsoft's Xbox is not much different from a Dell Dimension in most respects. The Xbox is a fully packaged PC with an OS built in. So is a Dell that you buy purchased with WindowsXP.

Say I don't like WinXP on my Dell. I remove it, repartition and install linux. I can do that because I OWN the box. I'm entitled to do whatever I want with it.

Now look at the Xbox. The Xbox is a system much like a Dell with windows, the only difference is you can't easily uninstall/repartition... until now. Why is this illegal? I bought my Xbox. I OWN every part of that machine. No where does it say "Property of Microsoft" on my Xbox. Can't I do whatever I want with it? Can't Free-X release any software they want for it, much like 3rd parties can release software of their own? .02

Re:is it really illegal by aderusha · 2003-07-04 02:03 · Score: 1

what's the difference then?

4 letters - the DMCA

the xbox houses "effective technological copyright control" measures, and bypassing those is now a crime.

the dell has no such measures (yet), so you can install whatever you want.

Obvious solution by princeofweasels · 2003-07-04 00:42 · Score: 3, Funny

The obvious thing for Microsoft to do is to install a video camera in the box so that they can insure proper use.

Re:Woops, too late? This is what MS wants.... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 00:43 · Score: 0

if anything M$ is trying to using it as a test model to see if they could build hardware that only runs winbloze... id watch out the next couple of years and see what arises from that company.. ive thought that since the x-box came out(and im not trying to sound like a conspiracy nut)... its the only way m$ could ensure linux goes nowhere.. and its unethical enough that it would come from that company...

Re:Dude, they're in AUSTRIA ..Where the hell is th by metallikop · 2003-07-04 00:44 · Score: 1

Who cares? If they're not English speaking, they're not worth our time!! The american way Yes I'm american, please, only reply if you speak english and eat mcdonalds 3 times a day.

Why Linux on XBox? by GnuVince · 2003-07-04 00:45 · Score: 1

What exactly does it give? I mean, you can buy computers that cost about the same price than a XBox. So what's the big deal, why do people want a Linux-enabled XBox?

Re:Why Linux on XBox? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 01:04 · Score: 0

You CANNOT buy a computer that is usable and costs "about the same price"...
Re:Why Linux on XBox? by kwerle · 2003-07-04 04:29 · Score: 1

I want to be able to play MP3s from my server on my stereo. The xbox is all hooked up - all I need is software.

The software exists - M$ just wouldn't let me run it.

Now I will be able to.

Re:I think this will make Xboxen much more popular by Taurine · 2003-07-04 00:46 · Score: 1

Why in the world would they want people to buy an Xbox, only to install Linux on it and never again be able to play another Xbox game on it???

The original PlayStation benefitted greatly from the millions of consoles sold in the Asian region that were destined never to run legitimate software. Sony were able to boast of the huge number of consoles sold to developers who were wondering if it was an economically viable platform. They couldn't tell at that stage that all these machines were owned by people that wouldn't buy legitimate software. They just saw the huge sales, and committed to doing lots of development for the console. Many developers got surprisingly low sales on their initial projects. However, Sony were now able to turn around and say to the consumers, look, we have a huge number of games available and in development for this console! People bought the console, and eventually the developers did get their legitimate huge market and decent sales

With the so-called console wars still raging, this could just work for Microsoft too. That's why I just don't understand why any Linux fan, or indeed anyone that likes console games and would like to see them continue in the future, would ever buy an X-Box. You've got to understand that when you buy an X-Box, despite being sold at a loss, you are still helping Microsoft.

Simple shrimp recipe by Aceticon · 2003-07-04 00:57 · Score: 1

Fry already peeled shrimps in a pan with (a bit of) palm oil and pork rib. Instead of palm oil you can use pork grease.

Cover the pan with a lid or the palm oil will jump all over the place (it has a strong smell and is difficult to clean).

PS: Geeks can cook too!!!

Re:Simple shrimp recipe by ross.w · 2003-07-04 15:26 · Score: 1

The tastiest way I've ever seen of cooking prawns was yesterday.
Here in a restaurant in Shanghai, they take a crock pot and half fill it with what looks like polished river stones, each about the size of a golf ball.
They heat this up, and they take the prawns, which have been marinating in stock, and throw them in.
They put the lid on for about 15 seconds until the prawns turn pink and then serve.
Juicy, tasty and not overcooked.

--
If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?

Nobody Interested? by Rameriez · 2003-07-04 00:59 · Score: 1

To those that think that this will not change anything, I disagree. I'm not fully sure of Free-X's motives, but I do believe this will be seen by many as an easy, cheaper way to mod their XBox. As soon as 13 year-old-proof instructions are released, I can see this exploit really taking off as a method to play unsigned, copied games on the XBox. That is, of course, if Microsoft don't destroy Free-X through the legal system (this would be a great victory for the EUCD), or as people have already said, release a patch through XBox Live and/or future games.

Australia by puckhead · 2003-07-04 00:59 · Score: 1

Large, mostly brown country in the southern hemisphere.

--
Watching Cowboy Bebop in my jammies, eating a bowl of Shreddies.

Re:Woops, too late? This is what MS wants.... by SN74S181 · 2003-07-04 01:02 · Score: 1

Unweildy mice? Microsoft has consistently made* some of the best mice on the market. But thanks for giving an opportunity to mention it.

Complicated home WiFi gear? No more complicated than any other. Are you, say, engaging in a FUD campaign? Look beyond your hate of Microsoft, dood, you get to seem like a buffoon if you're not careful how you present your hatred.

(*do they make their mice, or contract it out is a good question.)

Isn't this all just a bit pointless? by Theovon · 2003-07-04 01:06 · Score: 2, Interesting

Compared to what you can get in a Walmart PC, isn't the Xbox kindof unimpressive technology? I mean, what are you going to do with Linux on Xbox anyhow? Certainly not cluster computing -- the Walmart PC would be cheaper and faster. Graphics? Buy the Walmart PC and add a Radeon -- then you'll have faster graphics than the Xbox.

What could you possibly get from running Linux on Xbox that you can't from the cheaper, faster Walmart PC?

Re:Isn't this all just a bit pointless? by user32.ExitWindowsEx · 2003-07-04 03:10 · Score: 1

But you'll pay more too.

--
"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." -- Dark Helmet

Xbox-Linux Team confirms the exploit by k-hell · 2003-07-04 01:09 · Score: 4, Informative

See here. ZDnet is also running a story here

toaster... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 01:13 · Score: 0

If someone "exploited" a toaster so that the toaster could also take out your dog etc, would a company making toasters sue the "exploiter"?
I think not...

Re:toaster... by Graspee_Leemoor · 2003-07-04 09:05 · Score: 1

" If someone "exploited" a toaster so that the toaster could also take out your dog etc, would a company making toasters sue the "exploiter"?"

"Leon Hack" for toasters. Now your toaster can 'take out' your dog- from 1/4 mile away.

Never be bothered by your dog again!

Coming next week from the mod team, a toaster hack that means your toaster (if on the compatibility list) can take out OTHER PEOPLE'S dogs!

graspee

Sadly.... by Dr+Reducto · 2003-07-04 01:18 · Score: 2, Funny

The members of the team were found dead the next day. The police believe that they all had heart attacks while sleeping. No Foul play is suspected.

Font Names by BigBadBri · 2003-07-04 01:22 · Score: 2, Interesting

You just gotta love anyone that uses 'Bert and Ernie' for the font names.

I'm surprised Big Bird never got a look in.

Seriously, though, If Microsoft want to market a crippled general purpose computing device, I'm not surprised that people are going to want to hack it just for the hell of it.

Good luck to the guys, and a big up to the Sesame Street gang.

--
oh brave new world, that has such people in it!

Fight back! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 01:28 · Score: 0

"People come up with ways to beat the system, and corporate comes back with litigation (ie RIAA comes to mind)."

I say we litigate back, if we are to protect our freedom to speak, innovate, share, and just plain live. Otherwise, we risk losing every ounce of freedom that we are entitled to.

The corporate goons are hard at work to deprive us of these basic liberties and keep us enslaved to them. We cannot afford to be complacent. GET INVOLVED!

interesting (nt) by cockroach2 · 2003-07-04 01:37 · Score: 0

(nt)

Not even giving in to DOJ by bstadil · 2003-07-04 01:41 · Score: 1

They don't even give in to DOJ and the terms of the settlement.so why should they give in to the Hackers Demands.

As of right now the convicted party is Microsoft not the hackers just to keep things in perspective.

--
Help fight continental drift.

Have not you read the /. FAQ? by jotaeleemeese · 2003-07-04 01:44 · Score: 1

This is an USian site. That means Austria and Australia are the same thing or both are in Texas.

--
IANAL but write like a drunk one.

Nope. by jotaeleemeese · 2003-07-04 01:46 · Score: 1

I did not sign anything, they are selling me something by coercing me after the sale.

I am really waiting for them to try to enforce this.

Why do you think they invented DMCA and similar? That is the pseudo legal leg they want to stand on.

--
IANAL but write like a drunk one.

The flaw is the business plan not the code. by webweave · 2003-07-04 01:48 · Score: 1

Has system software ever shown to be perfect?

How could you go into court and say the current software art is stable enough that you could expect your plan to control the market through your programming to work in the first place, Microsoft?

In industry it is common for pieces of equipment that use a lot of supplies (e.g.. high end printers) for the manufacturer to discount the equipment in exchange for a contract to purchase a certain amount of supplies. You may buy supplies from another supplier but you must honor the contract for the amount of supplies to get the machine at a discount. In the Xbox case they want all your business and they don't want any competition.

Could an auto manufactuer sell a car that would only use its branded supplies and its branded parts? Would the law allow the manufacturer to go after those who decided to use Esso gas and oil or Walmart air filters?

A similar point was argued a few years ago when the auto makers were forced to recognize routine maintenance performed by independent auto service as valid for maintaining warranty protection. If you have warranty service done any licensed mechanic your warranty is valid, not just the factory mechanics.

-----------------
-Saying Micro$oft has security problems is like running into a burning theater and yelling fire.

Microsoft hacks by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 01:50 · Score: 0

the normal person "average joe" pays no attention to them whatsoever (the same with microsoft themself) because if it really becomes a vital issue they can fix it at any time they want. They get a constant stream of free press, and more than half of the time the work is allready done for them [full disclosure, blah blah, blah etc], because XYZ hacker desperately wants 5 minutes of fame and glory for their efforts. This pathetic cat and mouse game is basically a win-win situation for Microsoft.

You really want to fuck Microsoft over?

Don't buy ANY Microsoft products

even if they make them at a 'loss' - that's still cash flow in and market share gained.

More so, don't USE any Microsoft products ...

Even if you got your version of M$ Orrofice from some street-punk 101 warez CD, they still gain market share.

In short, how to fuck microsoft over?

Don't buy, Don't use. Everything else is free press and market share, and is just a lousy excuse and pathetic attempt at being "cool".

This is the end game. by twitter · 2003-07-04 01:53 · Score: 3, Insightful

Could be, Free X sounds like M$: The software companies who are developing titles for the XBox should be very worried by the lack of protection that Microsoft is offering their work as exploits such as those found by our team pose a serious threat to potential sales due to the possible use of such exploits for software piracy.

Software piracy? Exploit? Could they have protrayed themselves in a worse light? They also promised to sign NDAs and happily screw everyone else and work exclusively for M$ like good little boys and girls should. Sounds like standard BSA propaganda to me and the wave of corporate sponsored, Digital Rights Damaged, coppies of free software bode evil for software freedom.

Free software is not about making binary coppies of a few games, it's about having control of your hardware and building things. An xbox with a "signed" Linux kernel that can't be programed or modified offers neither liberty nor the license FreeX offers as a substitute. That kind of box is worth no more than XP on a Next Generation Enslaved PC, except it might have better uptime.

It would not be at all surprising to learn that Microsoft is paying FreeX to make this noise. If it looks like a duck and acts like a duck, chances are it's a duck.

Who knows, perhaps this is the way for M$ to meet the Linux threat while further expanding into hardware sales. Embrace, Extend, Extinguish is their tried and true pattern. They can call it Shared Linux, port M$ Office to it and push it on big dumb companies as the legitimate child of the free software movement. $100/box is 1/4 the price of a current corporate desktop and they will be just in time for the next corporate "upgrade" cycle. If it caught on, Dell and Gateway would indeed be introuble, because they have to buy their software from M$. Then they move in for the kill by using the DMCA to neuter the GPL. Distributing partial source kernels in a way that nothing can be modified even if you had the source is a massive violation of the spirit of the GPL if not it's letter. What use is source code if you go to jail for modifying it?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, purchasing the xbox only helps M$. If you want a gaming console, buy one with merrit. If you want a PC build one. One way you get better games, the other way you keep your computing freedom. Purchasing the xbox gives you neither of the things you are looking for and removes a sale from someone who's more interested in what you want.

--

Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

Re:This is the end game. by Elias+Serge · 2003-07-04 02:36 · Score: 1

I'd just like to point out that the FreeX team wanted a signed boot loader, not a signed kernel. You could load kernel you wanted with it, but you couldn't play your warezed copy of 007
Re:This is the end game. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 03:15 · Score: 0

I've said it before and I'll say it again, purchasing the xbox only helps M$

On the contrary, purchasing the XBox makes MS lose about a hundred dollars per unit. They are selling it at a significant loss! This is a publicly documented fact, read around the net and you will see. If you think of it that way then purchasing XBox creates deeper and deeper losses for the extremely losing division of MS.

It seems that your (apparent) deep hatred of MS forces you into believing conspiracy theories about everything. Truth be told, the XBox may begin to pick up some ground on the Playstation 2 if the games ever catch up or surpass the Playstation games. Until game sales rise, the XBox division will be an enormous tax write off for MS each year (perhaps you should consider that instead of your destroy Dell theories)... The tax write off XBox provides Microsoft is a huge asset!

In the FreeXbox groups response, they state that "We believe that Microsoft sees hackers as a perfect instrument for increasing the sales of the XBox. How else can their reaction to this issue be interpreted?"... well, that is doubtful. As any publicly available evidence will show, Microsoft doesn't stand to gain anything from the increasing sales of XBox units (they lose more money)... instead, they hope for a meteoric rise in the sales of XBox games... where they make money.

Besides, the only way that Microsoft has anything to gain from the efforts to hack the XBox is the FREE publicity it will gain them (there is NO bad publicity). The increase in the amount of pirated software will only hurt Microsoft EVEN MORE, so how can they have anything other than publicity to gain from XBox hackers?
Re:This is the end game. by ball-lightning · 2003-07-04 03:52 · Score: 1

They also promised to sign NDAs and happily screw everyone else

How are they screwing everyone else? This stuff can be used to pirate games, and if you ask me it should have been kept secret. It's Microsoft's fool fault for not accepting the help, but in this case if Microsoft was willing to accept the help, the ethical thing to do is sign a NDA and keep it secret.

An xbox with a "signed" Linux kernel that can't be programed or modified offers neither liberty nor the license FreeX offers as a substitute. That kind of box is worth no more than XP on a Next Generation Enslaved PC, except it might have better uptime.

Its worth no more than anything if you don't want to play games, but if you do, well trust me its pretty good. Basically right now your saying if it doesn't run linux, its useless. Now, I won't pretend to understand many people's obsession on running Linux on everything (to each his own) but to say something is completely worthless if it can't run linux is just one of the most shortsighted things I have ever heard.

It would not be at all surprising to learn that Microsoft is paying FreeX to make this noise. If it looks like a duck and acts like a duck, chances are it's a duck.

Come on now, conspiracy theories? Why would Microsoft pay a group to release a security bug which would allow software piracy?

Who knows, perhaps this is the way for M$ to meet the Linux threat while further expanding into hardware sales. Embrace, Extend, Extinguish is their tried and true pattern. They can call it Shared Linux, port M$ Office to it and push it on big dumb companies as the legitimate child of the free software movement.

Firstly, that would be very good if Microsoft released Office for Linux (I like it better than Koffice and OpenOffice myself) Although I doubt something like this would occur. The X-Box, while it may or may not be sold at cost (I've heard rumors all are, I've heard some aren't, so at this point I don't actually know for sure) it doesn't make a lot of money by itself. Microsoft would not want to sell cheap little boxes to companies when office alone costs more than two X-Boxes. They have no reason to want to sell cheap X-Boxes to companies, no reason at all. The PC Hardware business is a very low margin business (while software is a very high margin business) why would Microsoft want to shift focus?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, purchasing the xbox only helps M$. If you want a gaming console, buy one with merrit.

Actually, the X-Box has quite a few good games out for it now. In addition, the X-Box live service is just great. I'm going to assume you haven't used it but its defintely better than Sony's online service (this is from experience, btw) and of course better than Nintendo's non-existent service.

If you ask me, while this may have been created because someone wanted to run Linux on their X-Box, it's probably going to be used a lot more for playing pirated games, which is a shame because now its going to be associated with Linux, and that doesn't help anyone.
Re:This is the end game. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 03:55 · Score: 0

>Free software is not about making binary coppies of a few games, it's about having control of your hardware and building things.

Free Software is about being able to do whatever you want with the source code, binaries, and documentation.

This includes selling them as part of a commercial product without legal challenges from GNU, RMS, etc.

I predict that in 2009 or 2010 RMS and GNU will seriously jepedardize open source software by claiming that just about any major package is under GNU or contains GNU code.
Re:This is the end game. by BlackHawk-666 · 2003-07-04 13:13 · Score: 1

Is that you Bill?

--
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

what the hell does Austria have? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 01:54 · Score: 0

neo fasicists, kurt waldheim jorg heider, half the country seems to be mentally retarded. Maybe because they are to close to italy? Maybe berlusconi even came from austria.
Anyway, we could easily do without them.

They sued McDonnalds which is NOT a monopoly by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 01:58 · Score: 0

While they have many branches etc.. and are a domminant powerful company. They are not a monopoly and they care about PR. People depend on MS (yes I know all my computers are Macs and Linux) and the cost of moving to another platform within a reasonable timeframe is just impossible (even legally) to many businesses and personal users. While MS cares about PR most people view hackers as criminals and Bill Gates as a "self made man" who made PC's accessible to the common man... Hell he even made it into the top 100 people in histrory (in the history chanel).

Re:Woops, too late? This is what MS wants.... by alienw · 2003-07-04 02:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

And, where can I get one for $179.99? With a case, a hard drive and a Geforce 3 video card?

Closed Platform as Mixed Blessing by cait56 · 2003-07-04 02:04 · Score: 4, Interesting

For better or worse, the concept of selling a closed platform is legal. This is especially true if the buyer has adequate information to know that it is a closed platform. I would prefer a mandatory big red WARNING label to be affixed to all closed platforms saying "The retail price of this unit reflects a subsidy from the manufacturer. This subsidy is provided in anticipation of future revenues. Therefore this unit will only work with software lisenced by the manufacturer."

There are benefits to a closed platform to consumers.

It allows a manufacturer who is optimistic to assume the risk that there will be an inadequate supply of software for the platform. If they don't produce their software, they just ate their subsidy.
It allows all software to be signed and authenticated. Responsibility for any hardware damage caused by a software installation can be easily assigned to the lisencee who supplied the software.

The down side is simple. The consumer is being mislead by an artificially low up-front price into being locked into continued payments of a monopoly tax on each piece of software they purchase.

I believe the only solution is for the FTC to require platform vendors to offer their product in an unbundled format. You can buy an XBOX that will run third party software, but it might cost you $150 more.

Re:Closed Platform as Mixed Blessing by Col.+Klink+(retired) · 2003-07-04 02:27 · Score: 5, Insightful

Yeah, sure, it's legal to *sell* a closed system. However, there is absolutely no legal basis that allow a seller to prevent a consumer from opening it. The most they could do would be to void all warranties if you do anything unapproved.

If MS can say that you can't open it or run software on it, does that also mean that MS can keep you from reselling it or smashing it with a sledgehammer or just tossing the whole thing in the garbage?

If someone wants to maintain control of a device after they give it to the consumer, their only choice is to rent it to the consumer and maintain the ownership themselves.

--
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
Re:Closed Platform as Mixed Blessing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 04:00 · Score: 0

They could always came they are renting/licensing the software build into the xbox. I bet they already think of it that way.
Re:Closed Platform as Mixed Blessing by TheLastUser · 2003-07-04 04:56 · Score: 1

How about the DMCA, if the XBox contains a form of encryption then wouldn't the person who opens it be tampering with encryption and hence likely to get sent to Guantanamo, or perhaps the salt mines of Kestle?
Re:Closed Platform as Mixed Blessing by Elm+Tree · 2003-07-04 07:13 · Score: 3, Informative

But the beauty of this hack is that it exploits the fact that microsoft *did't* use encrytion on this one section of the machine. They check the SHA hash for everything except .wav and .ttf files, and by using a malformed font you can exploit a buffer trickyness to gain control of the machine.
Re:Closed Platform as Mixed Blessing by mitheral · 2003-07-04 07:53 · Score: 1

'Course the differences aren't something I'd like to differentiate to a series of judges :)
Re:Closed Platform as Mixed Blessing by Trogre · 2003-07-04 11:59 · Score: 1

Yeah, like those colour inkjet printers you can get now for $25 with ink, but any more ink you buy down the road will cost you $50.

--
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Re:Closed Platform as Mixed Blessing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 15:47 · Score: 0

Id like a EULA you agree not to throw it in the garbage, but recycle it instead. Deliver it to a local recycler station and they take care of it. Have you ever seen the garbage dumps? their big, and how long can we eat at resturant Earth without paying for us...

I dont have any solutions but theres so much every individual can do that is so easy. Bring a bag when you shop food or clothes etc, if you recycle youll have more plastic bags then you need.

im just another idealistic young man of course, but im not sure how long we can wrap up every single little snack in hundreds of thousands of stores all over the western world, every day millions of packs aday. Sometimes their double-wrapped and sometimes they mix paper with plastic, is it really necesseray? is there so little demand for stupidity like this, are we cheep with no brains?
Re:Closed Platform as Mixed Blessing by anthony_dipierro · 2003-07-04 16:01 · Score: 1

The DMCA doesn't require there to be encryption. exploiting a buffer is a circumvention in and of itself.
Re:Closed Platform as Mixed Blessing by RALE007 · 2003-07-04 20:10 · Score: 1

You are completely wrong.
The DMCA makes many modifications to your own hardware illegal.
Any modification that may be used to circumvent copyright is illegal. Whether or not the modification is for that purpose.
Lexmark's current suit is a good example.
Mod chip resellers are being jailed and fined.
For a better understanding of the DMCA's effects, what Princeton Computer Science Professor Edward W. Felten has expressed should be referred to.
Besides the link to a full copy of the DMCA, I feel it important to note all my other references are previous articles from slashdot. It is well established that due to the DMCA, you *cannot* do as you wish with your own hardware.
And yes, if you smashed your xbox and someone else heard, you could be arrested. It is disorderly conduct and I have been arrested for it in an even more ridiculous scenario.
If you smashed your xbox in a fit of rage, that would be considered an even more serious charge of domestic violence according to some states statuettes (seriously). Roll your eyes if you wish, but I have met a half dozen people who have had this ridiculous charge thrown at them.
My point is simply the DMCA is much worse than you think, and it is one of numerous ridiculous laws on the books, and saying you can do what this ridiculous laws specifically says you cannot is an irresponsible statement.

--
Beware blue cats moving at .99c
Re:Closed Platform as Mixed Blessing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-05 11:37 · Score: 0

"disorderly conduct"? WTF?

What is this, fascism?
Re:Closed Platform as Mixed Blessing by jafuser · 2003-07-05 12:50 · Score: 1

If this were true, wouldn't people just keep buying the printers, and toss them out when they run out of ink?

--
Please consider making an automatic monthly recurring donation to the EFF
Re:Closed Platform as Mixed Blessing by Trogre · 2003-07-05 20:31 · Score: 1

There is no "If this were true"; it's happening now, in your local computer store.

It's not uncommon for people to buy 2 or 3 printers at a time for 'spare parts'.

--
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Re:Closed Platform as Mixed Blessing by aminorex · 2003-07-06 11:48 · Score: 1

So the DMCA requires you to psychoanalyze
the motives of the manufacturer: Is this
behaviour designed as a copyright protection
mechanism? Only your analyst knows for sure.

But what we can know for sure is that if
Microsoft goes after these guys, it proves
that the circumvented feature was NOT for
purposes of copyright protection (since no
copyrights have been violated), but rather
another unlawful means by which this convicted
monopolist excludes competitors.

--
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
Re:Closed Platform as Mixed Blessing by anthony_dipierro · 2003-07-06 19:20 · Score: 1

It's quite clear that this behavior is designed as a copyright protection mechanism. I think you'd have quite a hard time convincing a jury otherwise. Feel free to try, though.

mod parent up by TobyWong · 2003-07-04 02:05 · Score: 1

shrimp != prawn

That rumbling you just heard is the sound of 10,000 dead chefs rolling over inside their graves in disgust.

--
- Toby

Re:honestly... reverse social engineering by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 02:06 · Score: 0

Wow, are you scared. Why are you so concered about what others do with their gear? Boo hoo.

What happened with WASTE was completely different by AntonyBartlett · 2003-07-04 02:14 · Score: 1

Too late. Just ask AOL at trying to stop WASTE when it came out.

That is assuming AOL actually were trying to anything so obviously futile as stopping WASTE. Rather than, say, just trying to distance themselves from it in order to head off any legal trouble that the program might get them into, and also to avoid upsetting any of their other buddies in the RIAA.

Furthermore, by having WASTE out there, but undermined, they've divided the efforts of any programmers who may care to work upon this sort of thing, thus undermined the development of any replacement for WASTE (oh, and, anyone fancy working in a "clean-room" enviroment and/or risk AOL make IP claims spurious or otherwise, against them?... didn't think so).

In the mean time, who cares if the activites of WASTE users are encrypted when they can go after people for using WASTE itself.

who needs games? by dogen · 2003-07-04 02:16 · Score: 1

The greatest game is david vs. goliath -- linux against microsoft. Any game you can buy is boring in comparison.

BSOD is now a good thing! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 02:18 · Score: 0

Billy Gates, you suck. Hire some real programmers!
So now we know why windows BSODs so damn much, one simple font reader routine and crash, crash, crash. Yes, this time it came in handy, but talk about lame programming, get a clue before you start a software company.

Re:Dude, they're in AUSTRIA ..Where the hell is th by dakna · 2003-07-04 02:18 · Score: 1

Maybe they don't know ... but the software they made knows for sure ... but who trusts in Microsoft products anyway?

Re:I think this will make Xboxen much more popular by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 02:20 · Score: 0

"Wouldn't you rather be able to run your own Xbox Live server though?

For free?"

The cost to do this, in time and money, would be worth more than the 50 bucks I could pay to just get Xbox Live. And I'd get a mic that can be used in any 2.5-mm jack.

Put it this way:

$50 / 8760 (hours in a year) = $0.005 an hour. My time is worth way, WAY more than that.

Re: So it's OK If I by Yue · 2003-07-04 02:21 · Score: 1

Actually there is enough public info to break your garage door code or any lock of your house.
One just needs enough motivation and skills to use that against you.That info is so public that it is taught in low level classes for locksmiths and garage door technicians.

The fact that the info is public, is good. It motivates the lock manufactuers to develop better products and to sell them to you at a higher margin so you buy yourself also an enhaced feeling of (otherwise inexistent) security. Actually they are blackmailing you into paying them huge profits such that they cover for your hidden little fears. Blackmail! Blackmail! Go after them dude!

-1 Redundant by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 02:22 · Score: 0

How many times are you going to repost this?

No right to making a profit. by MikeFM · 2003-07-04 02:29 · Score: 4, Interesting

Once a machine is sold the seller should have no say in what I do with it. I paid for it afterall. If I want to run Linux on it that's my right. If I throw it in a closet and never use it that's my right also. Either way M$ would lose the same amount of money on the deal.

It seems to me that this group gave Microsoft a fair offer, to let them run Linux on what they have legally purchased, without having to play dirty. Since Microsoft didn't even try to make a counter offer I guess they shouldn't complain. They probably will use the DMCA to attack this group but IMO that just proves what a shitty bit of law the DMCA is.

--
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.

Re:No right to making a profit. by mesocyclone · 2003-07-04 05:06 · Score: 1

The lack of hardware EULA's is not automatic. AFAIK it is just a matter of standard practice.

If you rent a widget, you can't mess with it legally. Software EULA's are sort of a rental agreement.

There is nothing to keep hardware manufacturers from putting similar EULA's on their devices. Of course, enforcing them could be a bit difficult, although I suppose they could sue anyone who sent in a modded box for repair.

--
The only good weather is bad weather.
Re:No right to making a profit. by BlackHawk-666 · 2003-07-04 12:31 · Score: 1, Insightful

Or, to draw an analogy...just suppose Standard Oil (MS) made a deal with General Motors (NVidia, etc) to build and supply a nice new model T car to the public. General Motors builds the car and sells it on to Standard Oil, who sell it on to the consumers at a mild loss. They engineer the loss to just underccut their toughest competitors, and fine tune that margin every six months or so as their competitors find ways to make their cars cheaper.
That's a bad business plan however (cause their not making money), so Standard Oil engineer the car so it only runs on their fuel, and any other fuel will choke it up and destroy the engine. They then sell that fuel on at a huge margin because it's the only fuel that can run in these cars. People buy the car because they see it is perhaps 10% cheaper than competing cars, but fail to notice the jacked up oil/fuel prices until after the purchase. Whew, starting to stink of monopoly now isn't it.
Some clever young engineers reverse engineer the "fuel-sodomiser" (TM) and create a replacement part which allows the car to utilise any oil companies petrol/oil. Now, you might think that's just fair play, it's your car and you can fill it up with whatever fuel you like and get it washed and serviced where you like. Standard Oil have a different concept. You got the car at a bit of a discount so they feel entitled to screw you over for the entire lifetime of the vehicle - and anybody you may sell it on to is likewise going to get screwed.
No court in the world would even think of charging you with criminal actions for replacing the fuel pump in *your* car with a cheap japanese/korean import. They wouldn't blink twice as you fitted a huge new carburator, or new mufflers from third party vendors. Nor would they convict you for switching from oil fuels to LPG. Why do they think we shouldn't have those same rights with our games consoles?

--
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

LIBERATE AUSTRIA! by Recoil_42 · 2003-07-04 02:32 · Score: 2, Funny

poor guys, they have no idea that they've just put austria next in line for "regime change"..

--

Newsie, Moderator, www.tauniverse.com

Re:Woops, too late? This is what MS wants.... by jkrise · 2003-07-04 02:41 · Score: 1

You can't - unless you're willing to shell out a few bucks more.

Neither can you get a comfy Linux distro and apps on a $180 XBox. You don't apples for the price of sour oranges?

--
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....

So.... by jotaeleemeese · 2003-07-04 02:45 · Score: 1

... you work for free?

These guys, by their own initiative, do the work of MS Engineers, offer to share the results and, here, shudder, suggest, not demand, suggest to be compensated for any work they do with MS after the agreement is signed.

Sorry, standard, ethical practice is to inform the company, give them enough time to fix the problem (one month sounds good to me) and then release the exploit. These guys went out of their way to work with MS.

The reality is that MS is so big that has lost the ability to react fast to any issues. If the Internet was popularized today I wonder if Billy Gates would have managed to steer the company on time in the correct direction....

--
IANAL but write like a drunk one.

Re:So.... by aziraphale · 2003-07-04 03:27 · Score: 1

Remember, we aren't talking about a security vulnerability here - we're talking about the circumvention of software controls placed into the XBox. Very different kettle of fish.

Ethics don't really enter into it - if I work out a way to increase the accelleration of my Ford Taurus tenfold with nitro, I'm not going to get very far sending messages to Ford saying 'give me a load of money for doing all this engineering work, or I'll release the specs to the public'. Now, in that instance ford wouldn't necessarily feel threatened by you publishing that information - that's because auto companies have a very different attitude to sale of hardware to the IT industry, I guess - but the point I'm making is that MS didn't want anybody to do this, so why do you expect MS to pay when someone does?

american law not global? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 02:51 · Score: 0

tell that to columbia and peru. while you are at it, you might tell saddam and bin laden too ;)

dumb-asses by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 02:54 · Score: 0

Why are you dumb-asses giving m$ more money anyway? Let thier stupid crap-box die on the vine. Quit supporting that lying, cheating monopoly.

What a crapweasel. by JazFresh · 2003-07-04 02:59 · Score: 1

"It is a shame that Microsoft appears to not share our concerns about protecting the intellectual rights of those who develop software for their console".

It's shame that Free-X appears not to give a flying pig's arse about the intellectual rights of those who develop software for Xbox. Sorry guys, information wants to be free, it's more important that we can run Linux on our toaster than it is for you to run a business making games.

Oh, and thanks Free-X, for making Linux zealots look like a bunch of whiny criminals.

Re:What a crapweasel. by Zeriel · 2003-07-04 03:38 · Score: 1

*sigh* Why does Microsoft get a right to tell me what I can do with the hunk of silicon and plastic I bought?

If you can come up with a reasonable explanation for that, I'll agree that this exploit is bad.

Hell, the damn thing as published doesn't allow anything but a linux bootloader--no pirated games.

--
"America has done some terrible things. But I know that Americans don't cheer when innocents die." -Dave Barry
Re:What a crapweasel. by shepd · 2003-07-04 06:41 · Score: 1

>It's shame that Free-X appears not to give a flying pig's arse about the intellectual rights of those who develop software for Xbox.

Intellectual rights extend to the point that authors have a right to choose what font files can and can't be loaded with their software?

What's next, xerox deciding what I can and can't print on their paper?

--
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC

Canada and CD-Rs by Kwil · 2003-07-04 03:06 · Score: 1

We do indeed pay a levy on each CD-R (and that's a levy, not a tax as our government is so quick to inform us.. I guess along the same lines as: floats like a duck, weighs the same as a duck, probably a witch.)

And the benefit is that it is entirely legal for Canadians to copy/download any music at all. It is not, however, legal for us to upload this music and make it available for others. The fun part is that the RIAA doesn't like this legislation either, because it opens them up on several fronts such as when they try Digital Restriction Mechanisms on CDs, and because they haven't seen a cent of the money yet.

The money from these levy's so far has all been going to pay the lawyers of the lobby that got this little deal worked out.

Friggin' classic.

--

That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze

I don't see why people are willing to do this.. by DaLiNKz · 2003-07-04 03:10 · Score: 1

Thow themselves at microsoft.. I mean, whats the point to run linux on xbox? I can understand it to be a hobby but to threaten someone as big as Microsoft over a game system.. whats next? threatening to raid countries for oil?

--
I've left to find myself. If you happen to see me, please, keep me there until I return.

Re:I don't see why people are willing to do this.. by Biff98 · 2003-07-04 04:17 · Score: 1

Wow you're an idiot. Would you like a nice machine, with good performance, in a pretty nice lookin case (rip the MS tags off), for $200 (or less)?

Micros~1 lost mucho dinero per unit on these things, just to "embrace and extend". If we can just make them like any other computers around, they've failed, AND it's their fault. Which means some poor group has to have the full weight of Micros~1 thrust upon it.

Coke dosen't own Dr. Pepper by gotr00t · 2003-07-04 03:30 · Score: 1

Dr. Pepper is not a beverage that is distributed by Coke, as they (I think) are independent. Instead, Coke produces a not well known imitation beverage called "Mr. Pibb"

Re:Woops, too late? This is what MS wants.... by bhtooefr · 2003-07-04 03:34 · Score: 1

Have you looked at their routers? They don't even have a web-based admin system! They require you to install some XP-friendly Broadband management crap! (I went with the D-Link DI-604 for that very reason - and for the $20 rebate...) BTW, their PCI Ethernet cards look just like the Belkin models (Realtek RTL8139 series).

Re:(Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect) by retneprac · 2003-07-04 03:39 · Score: 1

in case you hadn't noticed, they weren't demanding anything, they were requesting.
regardless of which way they go about it they still get what they want, all they were saying to Microsoft is that they wanted Linux on Xbox, and they were going to get it. They just offered Microsoft a choice, wether or not the exploit would allow the use of pirated software. All that Microsoft would have to do is give them the source code and they would make their exploit disallow pirated software, without the source code they can't add this to their exploit.

Small minds meet small minds with a legal team. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 03:40 · Score: 0

From the page:

- Complete access to all documentation (chipsets, video etc.) to assist in developing a better Linux for the XBox.
- A signed Linux loader.

Lets see:
A company who has one thing on their mind - growing the Windows brand meets another group intent on growing the "Linux" brand.

If Microsoft is EVIL for trying to grow its brand, what does that make Free-X? Free-X is just as closed minded as Mircosoft, for if they were into openness, they would have included the BSDs.

Re:Small minds meet small minds with a legal team. by Little+Brother · 2003-07-04 04:08 · Score: 1

Hmm, perhaps they view the BSD licence (as some people do) as a non-open license and inferior to GPL because it doesn't gaurentee that the code will remain open. Perhaps it wasn't because the project developers were not wanting openness that they eschowed BSD but because they demanded openness. Or prehaps they just decided to make a single project and wanted linux, and decided to let someone else go BSD, because they wern't getting paid to do it at all, and linux has a larger user base. Naw, they are being bigots just because they didn't make it for BSD also, and while they were at it, why hasn't anyone gotten an XBox to run CP/M, MP/M Minux, OS/2, GNU/Hurd, VMS, Apple OS X, Darwin, or any other OS? It's obviously an intentional slight on these fine OS's and shouldn't be tolerated by civilized /.ers. Oh wait there arn't any of those left. Nevermind

--

Little Brother, watching the watchers

Re:honestly...(off topic) by gimpboy · 2003-07-04 03:45 · Score: 1

that pathetic attempt was not his but rather slashdots. the despamifications of email addresses is a feature. here is mine harrold@sage.che.pitt.edu. it doesnt matter really, spamassassin will take care fo it. the email address is however his. you simply know what it is-congratulations. when you have the ability to check, delete and send his email, then it will be yours.

--
-- john

But you DONT own the firmware by nurb432 · 2003-07-04 03:47 · Score: 4, Interesting

While you do currently ( but not much longer i do forsee ) own what hardweare you buy, any firm/soft-ware that came with the device you only have a license to use.. at their terms.

--
---- Booth was a patriot ----

Re:But you DONT own the firmware by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 04:17 · Score: 0

And this affects this hack how? The hack doesn't infringe anyone's copyright and doesn't even touch the firmware.
Re:But you DONT own the firmware by bahamat · 2003-07-04 04:53 · Score: 5, Insightful

any firm/soft-ware that came with the device you only have a license to use.. at their terms.

Fine then, I don't accept the terms of the license. I guess I gotta delete the software. Hmm, now what am I going to do with my XBOX? I know! I'll run Linux on it!
Re:But you DONT own the firmware by Trogre · 2003-07-04 11:55 · Score: 1

... which is why the first thing most mod-chips do now is replace the firmware with a completely different one.

--
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Re:But you DONT own the firmware by Gregg+M · 2003-07-04 14:01 · Score: 1

While you do currently ( but not much longer i do forsee ) own what hardweare you buy, any firm/soft-ware that came with the device you only have a license to use.. at their terms.
You couldn't be more wrong! You have to agree to a license. It is a contract after all. Agreeing to a contract isn't as simple as a click through button. Terms have to be negotiable.
So far, most of the licenses that are attached to software haven't been upheld in court. Any software that was bought is owned by the person who bought it. Just like a book or a record. Not licensed. Not leased. Bought, sold, period. Unless you sign a contract before you put your money on the table. You own it.
So if you want to use the software, or sell it, you can. Microsoft's EULAs are illusions.

--
Linux is only free if your time has no value. Windows is only free if you threaten to use Linux.
Re:But you DONT own the firmware by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 15:17 · Score: 0

-1, you're a fucking idiot
Re:But you DONT own the firmware by ChaosDiscord · 2003-07-04 15:34 · Score: 2, Insightful

...any firm/soft-ware that came with the device you only have a license to use.. at their terms.

No, no, no, no, no !
Is there some sort of infinitely renewable stream of people completely unaware of how copyright works?
Copyright has nothing to do with a license. In the basic case, when you buy something that is protected by copyright, you neither need nor receive a license to use it. You are free to use it however you want. The only restrictions are specified in copyright law, primarily limiting your ability to distribute copies of the copyright protected work. There is no "you have no right to use this unless you get a license" clause in copyright law. There is no "when you buy something you get a license to use it" clause.
Unfortunately End User License Agreements have somehow tainted peoples brains and convinced them that they need some sort of magical license to use things they're purchased. You don't. Copyright law restricts you, yes. You can accept a license that will grant you things you couldn't do normally under copyright law (see the GPL, BSD, and similar licenses). But you don't need a license to use, modify for personal use, sell, or give it away! EULAs on software are built on a shaky legal foundation and is most certainly not a point of established law.

--
Search 2010 Gen Con events
Re:But you DONT own the firmware by pixelpunk · 2003-07-04 17:09 · Score: 1

So beccause you bought my tv I don't want you to ever get rid of it. It it breaks, I'm telling you that we're the only ones that can fix it and if you do take it somewhere then we can sue you.
Re:But you DONT own the firmware by nurb432 · 2003-07-04 22:11 · Score: 1

Have you ever leased a car? Often there are restrictions like that placed on you.

'authorized service centers only'.

Almost every product has that same stipulation if you don't want to void your warranty. Once again, a contract you entered with the vendor..

--
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Re:But you DONT own the firmware by Rich0 · 2003-07-07 04:52 · Score: 1

I'd be the first to aruge that if some modder breaks their X-Box Microsoft shouldn't have to honor the warranty.

We aren't talking about warranties on cars. The proper analogy would be that Ford comes out with a car which has an agreement written on the window stating that by buying the car you agree to only let Ford service it (remember - a car contains software too). Then somebody writes a home repair guide for the car, and Ford sues them.

I wouldn't be surprised if this already happened sometime in the last century - there is probably already a precedent.
Re:But you DONT own the firmware by Rich0 · 2003-07-07 04:54 · Score: 1

Which means of course that when you buy a car you only have a license to drive it in a manner that the manufacturer approves of. A car after all does include firmware.

Suppose the license included terms like "the buyer agrees to hold manufacturer harmless if the car happens to blow up due to a design flaw"? Would that be legal? You seems to suggest that if I sell you a product I can dictate every detail of how our relationship is to exist.
Re:But you DONT own the firmware by nurb432 · 2003-07-07 05:04 · Score: 1

Its happend at least with the modules, there was some flack a while back about people seling mod chips for the ignition module..

Its also hard to get a lot of 'new' parts from afermarket stores.. until the car has been out a while, and is out of warranty.

May not be something they are actively enforcing, but the result is similar.

--
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Re:But you DONT own the firmware by nurb432 · 2003-07-07 05:08 · Score: 1

No, they could not exclude a explosion or a broken ball joint due to design flaw, but they could demand they not be held liable for things that are not life threatening.. like knobs falling off the radio..

Now that would be bad business.. one doesnt piss off your customers and expect them to return , unless you are the *AA's

I don't think software people could get out of that one either.. a blue screen killing someone in a hospital.. I bet they would be libel regardless of EULA..

--
---- Booth was a patriot ----

Going to CompUSA to replace a sound card? by Jaysyn · 2003-07-04 03:52 · Score: 1

I'm hoping you only did that to keep your warranty.

Jaysyn

--
There is a war going on for your mind.

Re:Going to CompUSA to replace a sound card? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 04:09 · Score: 0

No,I did it because drivers scare me.
Re:Going to CompUSA to replace a sound card? by JeffTL · 2003-07-04 04:18 · Score: 1

I can have shaky hands sometimes, and when dealing with knockoff hardware that's wired up to the front of the machine funny, it seemed to be worth the $30 express installation to reduce the risk of ruining a new machine to nil.
Re:Going to CompUSA to replace a sound card? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 05:48 · Score: 0

Thats funny, because the chances of ruining your machine while swapping a sound card are about nil anyway. For $30, you probably got a high school dropout that smokes a lot of pot to spend 2 minutes to get the thing done. Way to go- you just allowed him to buy another day's supply of pot.
Re:Going to CompUSA to replace a sound card? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 05:50 · Score: 0

Unless you are standing on shag carpet with one hand on a VandeGraaff generator, you are probably safe.
Re:Going to CompUSA to replace a sound card? by Jaysyn · 2003-07-04 07:49 · Score: 1

You say that like it's a bad thing...

Jaysyn

--
There is a war going on for your mind.
Re:Going to CompUSA to replace a sound card? by JeffTL · 2003-07-04 10:22 · Score: 1

Actually, the guy was very good, though he was a wee bit confused by the headphone adapter board at the front, and tried to get it to hook up to a stock Audigy 2.

"We need to inform yourself" by sacrilicious · 2003-07-04 03:59 · Score: 1

"We do need to inform yourself and... [snip]" a Microsoft spokeswoman told ZDNet Australia by e-mail.

Nice diction, MS. All your xboxen are belong to us.

--
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.

Right on by sacrilicious · 2003-07-04 04:06 · Score: 1

But saying that MS sells their stuff too cheap is NOT our problem or fault

Agreed. Not only is selling below cost not our problem, it should be illegal as it is in the EU.

--
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.

Re:Right on by gregmac · 2003-07-04 04:27 · Score: 1

Not only is selling below cost not our problem, it should be illegal as it is in the EU.
Why is that? This is not an uncommon busniess stragety. As the original post said, if you sell below cost, you're taking a gamble. Sometimes businesses will sell a certain item below cost (and below the price of their competitors') just to get people into the store, with the hope that they'll buy other things once they're there. It's called a loss-leader or something like that (I'm not a marketing guy).
Sometimes a business will sell an item below cost to keep their customer happy, if they've done something to piss them off.
Either way, if you're selling below cost and not recouping that somewhere else, you're not going to last long. Natural selection for busniesses, if you will.

--
Speak before you think
Re:Right on by d-ude · 2003-07-04 05:21 · Score: 1

You are right, it is called a loss-leader.

Cellular phone companies have been doing it for a long time. Not at first though, they sold the phones for big money and the service for a lot too. Apparently that was the only option then, since the technology wasn't around for thes micro-size phones like we have today. If they would have tried a loss-leader then, then maybe we would all still be using CB Radio due to bankruptcy :)

Removing a sale by sacrilicious · 2003-07-04 04:10 · Score: 1

Purchasing the xbox... removes a sale from someone who's more interested in what you want.

Believe me, they'll make more.

--
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.

MS doesn't have the expertise by frovingslosh · 2003-07-04 04:10 · Score: 1

So you are saying that MS doesnt have the expertise that these people have

That's exactly what I'm saying. This is a company that has a long and broad history of writing code that constantly exposes itself to such problems, both when there are innocent but prevalent bugs from their own coders and also when there are deliberate attempts to exploit Microsoft's weaknesses. I doubt that they will even fix it the proper way - they will likely just add fonts to the list of checked files, but it would be much better and cleaner to simply make sure that the "underflow" and following load of a large block of memory does not happen. Microsoft has either repeatedly proven that it is incapable of good system security, or it should be held criminally responsible for the many flaws that expose people's privacy and property to information theft that I guess you think they could easily fix but elect not to.

Here was a group of people asking to help and be involved in the fix. Personally, I think they were fools, but not because I think games should be pirated. I think they were fools because they have not yet learned that Microsoft screws everyone that do business with, from small telco start-ups and CD envelope makers to major players like I.B.M. (remember OS/2 and the lies Microsoft told about their internal development strategy?) These guys did not black mail M$, that did ask for stuff but made it clear that they would cooperate even if the requests were not met. But they thought they could deal with the devil without getting dirty or harmed in doing so. Can't be done.

--
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.

Re:Woops, too late? This is what MS wants.... by digitalunity · 2003-07-04 04:14 · Score: 1

Are you speaking of the Microsoft Wireless Base Station? A wireless 802.11b enabled, 4 port router? Please, do some research before you speak. It, in fact does have a web based admin system. It is also far more versatile than the shitty broadband manager that it installs for XP. You can set up things like application-triggered and persistent port forwarding, DHCP server and client configuration, MAC access control lists, WEP, firewalling, whatever you want.

It is on 192.168.2.1:80, right where it belongs. I use my wireless base station all the time, from Linux. Somehow, it seems far to stable to actually be a MS product. Maybe I'll take a look inside, one of these days.

--
You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.

US Foster's isn't Foster's by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 04:19 · Score: 0

Up until (very roughly) 10 years ago, Foster's was my favorite beer. Loved the stuff. Then the taste... chanhged slightly. Every batch seemed slightly "off". When I eventually looked at the fine print on the label, turns out, it was no longer imported from Australia, but brewed under license in Canada. Just not the same taste. Although it's still way better than Budweiser! (rice beer - boo/hiss!)

I'll do whatever I want with my own stuff by Biff98 · 2003-07-04 04:21 · Score: 1

If I buy an Xbox (actually considering one now), or ANYTHING else for that matter, I'll do what I wish with it. There's no intellectual rights here.

Hypothetical: I run myself to the store (or eBay) and buy myself an Xbox, it is now mine. All the chips, all the solder, all the plastic (green as it may be), and all the wires. I can do whatever the hell I want with them. These games they sell have somehow had a spell cast upon them saying that I can only duplicate them for backup purposes. But no matter -- I'm not really interested in them. I'm interested in what I can make *MY* new box do! And if it happens to be to load a favorite operating system on there (noting that it is indeed just an Intel box to begin with) then so be it.

In the words of Cartman, "This is MINE, not yours , MINE!"

X-Box Media Player by rufus+t+firefly · 2003-07-04 04:27 · Score: 2, Interesting

I'm really amazed that no one brought up the X-Box Media Player. Honestly, it's the *only* reason I have considered purchasing an X-Box. At 150 USD for a used one (or less; I haven't been shopping recently), it's the cheapest VCD/SVCD/MP3/DivX/DVD/etc player I could get (since Mini-ITX boards with nice setups are still more money than that). I wonder who is going to be the first to modify the loader for it...

--
"He may look like an idiot, and talk like an idiot, but don't let that fool you. He really is an idiot." - Duck Soup

RTFA by timeOday · 2003-07-04 04:30 · Score: 1

Anticipated Questions:

...
Q2: This vulnerability is in the dashboard, isn't it? So Microsoft can simply update the dashboard with XBOX Live or with the help of new games.
A2: Yes Microsoft could try to upgrade the dashboard and fix the vulnerability with such an update, but keep in mind that this vulnerability is like a "local root" hole. You can do nearly everything with it and this includes redirecting reads and writes to the xboxdash.xbe file. Additionally people who do not play games on their box will not be reachable with such updates. And groups who pirate games can always disable the update feature.

QA^2 ? by apankrat · 2003-07-04 04:32 · Score: 1

Microsoft is already doing this. One of the guys I used to work with in the security realm is now at Microsoft, checking for exploitable code & paths in Palladium. I expect he'll to see this & prevent it in any Trusted system release.

From what I heard and read typical MS development team has a 1:2 ratio of developers and testers, meaning that developers are given tight deadlines and are essentially forced to release untested code. If QA happened to catch bugs - good, if not - they go into the production.

From what you're saying it sounds they now add another layer of 'code auditors', which further clean up after- or in parallel with- the QA. Sounds arguably stupid, but I guess given their huge codebase they dont have much choice.

--
3.243F6A8885A308D313

Re:QA^2 ? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 06:01 · Score: 0

Yes, because we all know that a /. loser named apankrat knows more about developing software with millions of lines of code than the largest software company in the world.

Microsoft's Calculator is better than anything YOU have programmed, so shut the hell up.

Can someone tell me briefly . . . . by LazloToth · 2003-07-04 04:36 · Score: 1

. . . and I'm not being cynical here - - but WHY would anyone want to port anything, Linux or otherwise, to an XBox? Is it just for the challenge? If so, I understand that, I guess. But what would be the motivation otherwise? Are there not enough cheap hardware platforms available that would make a better PC?

--

It's only funny until someone gets hurt. Then, it's hilarious.

Ego by lowe0 · 2003-07-04 04:37 · Score: 1

How self-aggrandizing. "Xbox Independence Day?" What a load of crap. These people imagine themselves as some sort of digital revolutionaries. It's just code, people.

I'm kind of curious as to how much of Xbox Linux is about using a below-cost machine and how much of it is about fucking Microsoft. If you want Linux on a console, go buy a PS2. Microsoft just isn't interested in Linux.

Anyway, with people running around with attitudes like this, I start to agree with the idea of draconian DRM. I still hate the DMCA, mind you, but if you've got people determined to break your security just to ruin your business, then fuck 'em - lock everything down tighter than Fort Knox. Let's hope MS takes the time to design a truly secure Xbox next time.

Re:Ego by rpresser · 2003-07-04 19:37 · Score: 1

The more draconian changes they make to their products, the less attractive their products are to me. To quote Pulp Fiction, "We'd have to be talkin' about one motherfuckin' charming pig."

Acknowledge our demands. by Mulletproof · 2003-07-04 04:42 · Score: 2, Insightful

"For the exchange, we were requesting but not demanding the following..."

I mean really. I think this hack is as cool as the next person does, but who do these guys really think they're fooling? If there is one thing that everybody on the planet Earth knows, it's that MS is not about to assist ANYBODY in the installation of Linux on their console.

"We were nice, polite and reasonable in our attempt to pursuade MS into supporting offical Linux/Xbox development, but since they didn't call back, we released the exploit to the world at large."

I guess you can't blame em for trying, but how is this noteworthy again? Microsoft doesn't want Linux on the XBox. How dense do you have to be to not realize this??? OF COURSE THEY AREN'T GOING TO COOPERATE WITH YOU, regardless of how unfortuante you think it is!!!

You're asking them to remove the only saftey that guarantees they make money on games, their primary source of income! Add Linux and the box becomes a computer, a device of multiple uses. Now you can buy a cheap ass XBox computer sold at a hefty loss and MS has no guaranteed way to recoup the loss because you no longer have to buy games for it.

On top of all that, MS is in DIRECT COMPETITION with the Linux platform (unlike Sony)!!

To even believe they'd answer any other way than they did is insanity of the highest order. Asking them to sell their hardware at a loss and cut the only guarantee they can make the money back through games?! Yeah, I know I would have cooperated too...

I mean, I think the hack is cool, but the sheer naivity of people like these amazes me.

--
You need a FREE iPod Nano

now they respond by gotem · 2003-07-04 04:50 · Score: 2, Informative

this has just arrived to the bugtraq mailing list:

Periodically we hear people say they tried to contact Microsoft about a product or service vulnerability and that Microsoft didn't respond.
We are concerned that people may not know how to report security vulnerabilities to Microsoft.

The Microsoft Security Response Center investigates all reports of security vulnerabilities affecting Microsoft products. If you believe you have found a security vulnerability affecting a Microsoft product, we'd like to work with you to investigate it.

You can contact the Microsoft Security Response Center by emailing secure@microsoft.com directly, or you can submit your report via our web-based vulnerability reporting form located at https://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default .asp?url=/technet/se curity/bulletin/alertus.asp.

Sincerely, Microsoft Security Response Center

...but still... by LiberalApplication · 2003-07-04 04:55 · Score: 1

...with good software titles, those folks who are running Linux on their XBoxes will still go out and purchase some of them green-boxed games. I'm serious. When Halo2 is finally released, I'm thinking that most of them XBox hackers will go out and grab a copy anyway. Even if it *could* be pirated.

They distribute it by benjamindees · 2003-07-04 04:57 · Score: 1

History of Mr. Pibb

Mr. PiBB was never able to threaten the predominance of Dr Pepper, which established primary name-recognition among consumers in the "cherry-flavored" carbonated beverage market. In the 1980's, Coke realized this and formed a stategic partnership with the Dr Pepper Company which exchanged use of superior Coca-Cola bottling facilities for a share in Dr Pepper sales profits. Only in regions of the country where Pepsi or 7up outbid Coke for this right did Coke resort to the production of Mr. PiBB.

--
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"

How can people be so blind? by Drestin · 2003-07-04 05:09 · Score: 1

I resisted posting comments on this because it had the eternal battle of Linux vs Microsoft in it and posting anything but blind praise for Linux and equally blind despite towards Microsoft will simply get you modded down in a forum as biased as this but... this is just too much to keep quiet about.

Look - you buy an XBox and take it home. Yep, it's yours and you are allowed to do ANYTHING you want with it. Burn it, bury it, run linux on it even. Hell, steal some System V code and copy it then run it and call it Linux and no one can bother you -- it's your box and you can do anything you want with it - including play games!

So, here comes these idiots. They have come up with some exploits. Yipee. They want to run Linux on their Xbox. Great - feel free guys. However, no, they want - no DEMAND that Microsoft sign their software to allow Linux to run the way they want. In other words folks, they, the end user, is DEMANDING that Microsoft do whatever they want -- or else. And there is an "or else" here. They have a damaging exploit and they have released it. Sure it'll be patched but the damage is done. Now, you have to seperate the two things here. They have an exploit -- did they work with MS to fix this? Nope. They wielded it as a weapon; "Do what we want or else." is what they've told MS. Now, had they simply campaigned with petitions or buying freezings or mass-mailings to get MS to sign a loader, fine. That's how it works. But, these buttheads have decided to threaten. "Do what we want or we'll release this exploit code we won't tell you anything about."

Folks that IS blackmail. Make all the excuses you want, put on your blinders for the holy linux cause but threatening to do something harmful unless you get what you want from someone - look it up, it's simple blackmail.

Like I wrote, you have every right to do whatever you want with YOUR Xbox. Nothing stops these guys from using their exploit to run linux on an unmodded Xbox. Hell, let them collect the $100K from wherever. Nothing illegal about that. But for them to threaten? Wrong!

Imagine: "Hello, GM?" Yea, I've bought a car from you, well, actually, I bought it used a few years back but anyway.. I've discovered a way to erase your entire financing database and give cars away for free but if you install a Corvette racing motor in my car I'll tell you about the bug before someone happens to read my notes I've left laying around here somewhere... maybe one of my rooms mates had it, he said he needed something to read while working the night shift at Kinkos..."

Or "Hello Walmart? Yea, I've discovered a way to alter the barcodes for prices on your products using a 20 cent marker that is utterly undetectable by any means -- so, if you just issue me a "Buy anything for free for a year" credit card to your stores I'll tell you about it -- but if you don't I'll post how to do this all over the Internet"

Give it a rest -- every non-advocate I've told this story to doesn't even blink as they say: "So, are they being arrested for blackmail?" The only ones even remotely considering this anything but unethical and illegal are linux advocates. Doesn't this say something very sad about the "linux ethic?" Think this will help promote the linux image in the board rooms of corporate America or even corporate Europe?

Re:How can people be so blind? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 07:14 · Score: 0

Uh no. As you stated modifying your own X-Box is not (or should not be) illegal. Therefore your GM and Wal-Mart analogies are flawed because there the person is threatening to do something illegal to the company. Uncrippling the X-Box may cause MS to make a bit less money, but that's not illegal, that's capitalism.

Would your "non-advocates" have preferred that this team simply have released the results of their reverse engineering without any warning to MS? Or would they have condemned that as reckless support of piracy with no attempt to mitigate the effect on MS? Short of keeping silent and being good little corporate bitches, what could they have done that would make you happy?
Re:How can people be so blind? by filmcritic · 2003-07-04 08:07 · Score: 0

Yessir...this type of behavior looks real good to the average person. They're seeing how the "open source community" attempts to coerce a company into doing their will. Oh yeah, that looks REAL nice. As the author said, it's blackmail. Everyone knows it, even the blinded linux zealots here, but who is going to stand up and publicly denounce these actions? No one, because of their blind hatred of Microsoft. Keep up the good work, these acts only drive the nails deeper into the linux coffin.
Re:How can people be so blind? by Drestin · 2003-07-04 14:12 · Score: 1

Why do you not understand. It's very clear, let me help you:
They are telling MS, we want these things a.b.c.d. OR we'll release an exploit.
Simple as that. And forget the defense "they said they requested not demanded" - well that paper tiger went out the door as soon as today when they actually released the exploit as threatened.
Forget any analogies; they are attempting to blackmail MS to get what they want and now that MS didn't give in to there demands the babies are playing "we warned you!" and proving that they are exactly what they claim not to be; crackers and blackhat hackers. They are terrorists and give linux an even worse image.

But it does use the firmware by nurb432 · 2003-07-04 05:10 · Score: 1

It uses the firmware to boot, and you violated the AUP in the process..

Dont get me wrong, i subscribe to the ' its mine ill do as i please ' concept.. but the courts dont agree...and i see it getting worse before it gets better, if ever..

--
---- Booth was a patriot ----

Re:But it does use the firmware by arkanes · 2003-07-04 07:46 · Score: 1

There's no AUP on an XBOX. They've got a pretty decent DMCA case, but for releasing the information, not for doing it.

Re:Woops, too late? This is what MS wants.... by bhtooefr · 2003-07-04 05:11 · Score: 1

No, I'm talking about the wired model. BTW, the box made it sound like the broadband manager was the only way to config it.

Wow ... by DaemonGem · 2003-07-04 05:14 · Score: 1

You'd think an organization that produces something that might be made illegal soon would bother to spell properly. "Today is a very said day for Microsoft"? Wow. Get your kicks while they last.

-Dae

--
"Alle reden vom wetter. Wir nicht." - SDS Sozialistischer Deutscher Studentenbund.
j00 4r3 3n73r1ng l337 w0r1d.

Hardware EULAs by The+Monster · 2003-07-04 05:17 · Score: 3, Insightful

There is nothing to keep hardware manufacturers from putting similar EULA's on their devices,

Yes, there is. It's a little thing called the law. A EULA that says 'by opening this seal, you signify your acceptance of these terms' on an inner package that you don't see until after you have purchased the item, is flat-out unenforceable. The only terms and conditions of a transaction are those disclosed to both parties before the transaction.

IANAL, of course, but IHAB, and it seems pretty obvious that the only HW EULA that would pass muster in a court would be one that the consumer reads and signs before completing the transaction. Otherwise, the consumer's belief that he is in fact purchasing the item in question, rather than a license to use it, would be ratified by any court that heard the case.

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[100% ISO 646 Compliant]
SVM, ERGO MONSTRO.

Re:Hardware EULAs by mesocyclone · 2003-07-04 05:26 · Score: 1

And this differs from a software EULA how? I buy Windoze, and I have to open an envelope with the "signify acceptance" phrase - after I have purchased the item.

I buy a piece of hardware. Inside the box is another box with the same sort of sticker, which has to be cut to get at the hardware.

Seriously, what's the difference?

For that matter, I have never quite understood how software EULA's work, since you don't see the EULA until after you have bought the software.

Obviously IANAL either.

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The only good weather is bad weather.
Re:Hardware EULAs by Elm+Tree · 2003-07-04 07:16 · Score: 1

Most software EULA's I've seen offer a refund if you are not willing to conform to their terms.
Re:Hardware EULAs by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 07:26 · Score: 0

Most software EULA's I've seen offer a refund if you are not willing to conform to their terms.

That's the funny thing - you have to agree to the EULA to state that you don't agree with it.

If I don't agree with the EULA, I simply use the software anyway.. the only thing that says I have to return it is the EULA, which I didn't agree to.
Re:Hardware EULAs by MikeFM · 2003-07-04 07:43 · Score: 1

Did you ever try getting that refund? I've yet to find a company that will honor the terms of their own EULA (Microsoft certainly doesn't).. so that should invalidate the whole thing. Besides EULA's are still more hot air than enforcable law. Scare people into believing something is illegal and it doesn't matter if it isn't really illegal.

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At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Re:Hardware EULAs by mesocyclone · 2003-07-04 07:52 · Score: 1

I would assume a hardware EULA would do the same.

My point is not that the XBOX has a EULA, but that, contrary to what the original poster said, it *could* have one in the future that could be just as obnoxious as a software EULA.

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The only good weather is bad weather.
Re:Hardware EULAs by afidel · 2003-07-04 09:15 · Score: 2, Insightful

Because software is copied by copyright and hardware is covered by patents. With physical devices you own them merely by possessing them, the only limitation is that you may not create copies and sell those copies. Software and other ephemeral things are covered by copyright and because the idea is the posession you must obtain a liscense to own it, hence the origional author has more controll over your ownership.

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There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Re:Hardware EULAs by mesocyclone · 2003-07-04 10:18 · Score: 1

Both are property. When you execute a transaction regarding the property, the terms of the transaction control the usage.

If you go out and rent a bed from a furniture rental place, you don't have full control of it. It may even be a patented bed. Makes no difference. When you rent a car, there are lots of terms and conditions regarding the use thereof.

If you go out and "buy" a box at a computer store, the transaction is identical whether it is hardware or software. If the box has a wrapper inside with a big warning that opening the wrapper binds you to a contract, and you can take it back unwrapped for a refund, this contract is the same whether it is copyrighted or not. If, on the other hand, you open the wrapper, you are bound to the contract.

After all, many of the terms in the EULA have nothing to do with copyright. Rather they are "hold harmless" clauses so you can't sue when the software destroys your data. You could certainly put the same clauses on a shrink-wrapped disk drive, with the same legal effect.

If Microsoft sold the XBOX with a EULA on it, they could say and enforce whatever they wanted as long as it was not illegal, and you would have to go along with it or return the box.

A contract is a contract.

IANAL although I studied a little contract law. If there is a real lawyer out there who can shed any more light on this, please (metaphorically) speak up!

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The only good weather is bad weather.
Re:Hardware EULAs by ChaosDiscord · 2003-07-04 15:39 · Score: 1

Software and other ephemeral things are covered by copyright and because the idea is the posession you must obtain a liscense to own it, hence the origional author has more controll over your ownership.

I suppose that's true in for the definition of "own" as "the person with control over the copyright on the work."
However, it's entirely irrelevant for the common case of own, as in "I just bought the latest AngryPunkBand album, and now I own it." I own that one specific copy. I received no license for the album, but that's okay, I don't need one. I'm free to treat that copy just like any other possession, I can sell it, give it away, study it, disassemble it, modify it, loan it out, and many other things. However, because it's protected by copyright, there are specific restrictions on what I can do, most notably having to do with distributing copies of the work. But that's a law, has nothing to do with licensing, and doesn't influence my personal use of the item.

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Search 2010 Gen Con events
Re:Hardware EULAs by jafuser · 2003-07-05 10:15 · Score: 1

on the other hand, you open the wrapper, you are bound to the contract.

Wrong. Shrinkwrap contracts (EULAs) are not legally-binding documents. They are simply scare tactics.

You can do anything you want to the copy of hardware and software that you purchased, except for making a copy to give to someone else (copyright or patent law), or cracking security measures (DMCA).

It disappoints me that the companies who make these EULA shrinkwrap contracts have apparently managed to brainwash people into compliance.

Unless you signed a contract at the cash register before you handed over your credit card or cash, you have no obligation to conform to a shrinkwrap license.

Understand? Good. Now spread the word, so we can reverse the brainwashing...

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Re:Hardware EULAs by mesocyclone · 2003-07-05 10:38 · Score: 1

RUAL? Do you have professional information on this subject or a reference, or is this this just your opinion?

I personally think that that many of their provisions (such as the hold harmless nonsense) should not be legally binding, but I have yet to see any *demonstrably knowledgable* person say that shrinkwraps are just FUD.

Since you have paid a consideration for the shrinkwrapped thing, have been notified of an obligation if you unshrinkwrap it, and they have provided you goods that you can use if you unshrinkwrap it, I see no reason whatsoever that shrinkwrap is not a way of creating a binding contract!

All shrinkwrap does is guarantee that you have been provided an unmistakeble opportunity to learn the terms of the contract before you take an action (opening the shrinkwrap) that brings the contract into effect. It allows the software maker to assert that you knew what you were getting into once you used the software or copied it or whatever.

You could do exactly the same thing with a new car... wrap it up and tie a contract to the zipper on the wrap with a big warning that unzipping it binds you to the contract (an allowing you to return it if it is never unzipped)!

I have already said that IANAL and cannot guarantee that my suppositions are correct. Would you please provide equivalent definition of your qualifications of your *opinion*?

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The only good weather is bad weather.

what about the ban on undocumented systems? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 05:18 · Score: 0

Time ago, Linux developers had a ban on any hardware
company whose specs were closed (or under non-disclosure agreements). This ban applied to Macintoshes for a long time. The Xbox should naturaly enter in this ban.

Re:Woops, too late? This is what MS wants.... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 05:35 · Score: 0

$140 used xbox
$50 modchip
$20 usb dongle
------
$210

Not $180, but close.

Yes by DABANSHEE · 2003-07-04 05:35 · Score: 1

Check out the how to pick locks page at the how stuff works website

Re:Woops, too late? This is what MS wants.... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 05:39 · Score: 0

Used Xbox + USB-Memory Card + Posted Sploit < USD$200

Works for me.

IP in the EU rights charter by yerricde · 2003-07-04 05:40 · Score: 2, Informative

And even if you are convicted of some sort of made up IP crime, you can always take the matter to the European Court of Human Rights, which pretty much always finds for the individual, because the EU Convention on Human Rights is a very broad and generous document.

If the EU Convention on Human Rights is anything like the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, it includes something about copyright. Article 27 of the UDHR guarantees at least some semblance of copyright to adhering nations.

Article 17 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union states bluntly: "Intellectual property shall be protected."

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Will I retire or break 10K?

Re:IP in the EU rights charter by darien · 2003-07-04 11:18 · Score: 2, Interesting

Hey, this guy actually did some research! Good on him!

It is true that the second section of of Article 17 declares that "intellectual property shall be protected." However, as you imply, that's all it says: there's no inherent provision for DMCA-style übercopyright. Meanwhile, the first section of that same Article states that

Everyone has the right to own, use, dispose of and bequeath his or her lawfully acquired possessions.
While it admittedly doesn't explicitly say that you have the right to hack your XBox and publish your findings, I'd strongly suspect a European court would go for this interpretation rather than the one that would allow a company to disenfranchise the individual. The European Commission wants to keep that power for itself.

Broaden Your Horizons, People by istartedi · 2003-07-04 05:48 · Score: 2, Informative

The XBox isn't the only product with issues like this. Remember the EV-1 electric car? They wouldn't sell them to people, even though people wanted to buy them. They would only lease them, and they insisted on taking them back.

Remember when Ma Bell owned your phone?

Surely there are other examples of "lease only" hardware too.

The real question is, "to what extent should lease-only hardware be permitted"? not "how do we stop this one company from releasing lease-only hardware?".

Personally, I think there should be no such thing as lease-only hardware at the consumer level. It probably makes more sense at the corporate level, like, if you're leasing a drilling rig or something.

OTOH, there are other less clear-cut cases. For example, is your credit card "hardware"? Not in the traditional sense, but the card is owned by the bank, and they can take it from you any time they like. How is that different from, for example... MS disabling your XBox remotely if you violate their TOS?

We could make lease-only illegal by default and carve out exceptions for things like credit card issuers. Or, we could make lease-only legal by default and carve out exceptions for companies like MS.

Actually, a more effective, and less ad-hoc reform might be to prohibit *any* legally declared monopoly from selling *any* product at a loss or under lease-only terms.

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For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?

Breakup wouldn't work. Here's why. by MickLinux · 2003-07-04 05:57 · Score: 1

Microsoft would do what? Break up the company, and for each share of M$ you owned, you'd get 1 share each of MicroEnter, MicroOS, MicroCE, MicroPDA, MicroHardware?

Of course, when they mail it to you, guess what you'll see? All 5 shares in a single package, covered by a shrink-wrap EULA requiring you to agree to only buy and sell shares of these new companies in equal amounts...

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Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's

Is it anywhere near OZTRIA? by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · 2003-07-04 05:57 · Score: 1

I saw a movie about OZTRIA once. Antie Em was there, and the scarecrow and the tinman and the cowerdly lion and Toto too. I'm willing to bet Microsoft will send the Oztrian first brigade of flying monkeys after those hooligans.

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Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.

Re:You can already put linux on PS2.. so why not x by bhtooefr · 2003-07-04 06:03 · Score: 1

Sorry. Unless, that is, you would like to reverse engineer the entire PS2 platform, and possibly the SDK itself, which that requires purchasing the SDK. Here's what you'd need to do:

Reverse engineer the PS2 IDE bus - the HDDs are an incompatible version of IDE
Write a PS2 bootloader
Port the Linux code to the Imagination Engine (or whatever the PS2 CPU is called)
Reverse engineer the DVD-ROM and graphics card

And that's just the start...

How does this validate anything? by tkrotchko · 2003-07-04 06:19 · Score: 2, Interesting

"They've essentially validated the need for the DMCA. "

This is a non-sequiteur.

If I buy a piece of hardware, its not my responsibility to validate that vendor's business model, particularly since you haven't signed an agreement with the vendor agreeing to support that business model.

"Microsoft sells XBOX at a loss"

Maybe. Maybe not. I frankly don't care. They are competitive in selling price with other game consoles; it isn't my job to make sure their cost of manufacture is in line with the price of sale.

So I get my XBOX home, I hack it, or a friend hacks it. But it now functions in a way that Microsoft doesn't like.

Maybe. Maybe not. I frankly don't care. I bought it, its mine. I can use it to play games, I can use it as a skeet target, I can use it to prop open the basement door. Hell, I might even use Linux on it. If Microsoft will let me smash it with a hammer, if they'll let me use it to prop up my book shelf, but they won't let me use it to use Linux, I'd say MS is being pretty particular on how they want *MY* equipment to be used.

Just because Microsoft wants you to do something, why are you obligated to do it that way? I don't see the logical connection between the two. If Microsoft is willing to give me some benefit for restricting my use of the XBOX, they probably should have made me agree to it before I bought it.

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You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you

Get a life by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 06:19 · Score: 0

M$ doesn't want XBox to run other OS, it's their choice! Don't like it? DONT BUY IT!!(it sucks anyways)! To "free" XBox is simply stupid, it's a product from a private corporation, not from the goverment or your dad! If you want a cosole that runs Linux, invent one on your own, rip out some company's product and put Linux on it doesn't prove the Linux is better or anything, it only proves that you guys are pathetic and need to get a real life (ie, focus on something else!)

Too bad. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 06:21 · Score: 2, Insightful

There isn't anything on the outside of the box, and I didn't sign anything that agreed I could only use the firmward in a microsoft approved manner.

Why do you think I owe microsoft anything beyond the purchase price of the XBOX?

RAM limitations of virtualization by yerricde · 2003-07-04 06:22 · Score: 1

Once someone digs the key out of the hardware, or finds any other vulnerability, then they own their system. They can run an undetectable virtualized system.

Undetectable? Bulldroppings. Virtualization requires memory, and a commercial virtualizer such as VMware or Virtual PC typically emulates a system with half as much RAM as the host. Xbox games expect to see all 64 MB of RAM on the Xbox, and they expect to see all of it in real time (that is, without swapping).

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Will I retire or break 10K?

Re:RAM limitations of virtualization by Alsee · 2003-07-04 08:55 · Score: 1

That part of my post was specificlly reffering to TCPA / Palladium. There's no problem with doubling the actual memory and using a faster processor.

On the XBOX with known hardware creating a full undetectable virtualization would be tougher, you'd have to swap to disk and there would be delays. The delays would be small compared to internet ping times. While it's possible to find a way to detect it, it would take a bit of effort.

Running virtualize is a "simple" and general solution when handed arbitrary code. But on the XBOX we are talking about a small amount of known code. Rather than running a virtualization you can just write custom code and fake it. All they know is what the XBOX sends out across the internet. There are a few ways they can try to play cat and mouse, but the fact is that they can never be sure you aren't running your own code.

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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.

Product dumping by xenocide2 · 2003-07-04 06:22 · Score: 1

Is illegal in most international trades. Usually economists are against it, in part because the laws are regularly written poorly. Of course, this only affects MS; Nintendo's overhead is now less than the wholesale cost, as is Sony's. I can't speak for MS but given the number of parts they don't make I'd imagine its still costing them.

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Open Source Sysadmin

Its worth pointing out by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 06:26 · Score: 0

That while the situation you describe might pass some sort of muster, there is no equivalent EULA for the XBOX or any console, either on the outside or inside of the box.

Microsoft may "think" they have a legal agreement with me the same way I "think" microsoft owes me a $1B. Both are figments of our imagination.

perhaps, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 06:34 · Score: 0

"Most of the six billion world population lives outside the USA."

Most of are ugly 3rd world people who probably should go away. I don't care how.

Freenet Mirror by mutterer · 2003-07-04 06:35 · Score: 1

If you have Freenet installed on your computer, click this link to read the statement and help spread it. If you do this it will ensure that Microsoft will NOT ever be able to remove this information from the Internet. Come on, folks, this is what Freenet is for!

Alternatively, if you know what you're doing, the key is KSK@xbox-unmodded-exploit

I thought I'd let you in on this. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 06:36 · Score: 0

The reason, although we'll never admit it publically, that there was no comment or acknowledgement of the request to sign LiLo so you could run linux on the xBox hardware was not one of morals, it was a plain security issue.

If you had the original file, and the signed file, it is more than possible to derrive the private key from this if you're good at cryptanalysis. Thats why noone besides Microsoft does the signing, and only for partners who are licensed to create Xbox games. The contracts prevent the companies making their unsigned xbe's available.

Thats why no LiLo signing happened, that and the fact we're selling a damn console, not a tower. It's crazy that people spend $300 on the Xbox and hardware, then another $300 total for peripherals, a TV etc, when you can get a better PC for $600 including your operating system of choice. Last I checked, equivelant graphics and CPU technology costs very little in todays market.

Re:This is what MS says by Psykechan · 2003-07-04 06:48 · Score: 2, Interesting

"The software included in the Xbox product is licensed to you, not sold." It's on page 20 of the Xbox manual. This exploit involves the dashboard which is MS property even if it's on your Xbox. It is not yours to do with whatever you would like.

Other nice parts of the manual state that your warrenty can be voided if your system is damaged by a virus. I asked MS about this once and they couldn't give me an answer beyond "don't worry about it". Unfortunatly, my experience with MS products says I should worry about it.

Piracy is a subset of flexibility. by Boogerman · 2003-07-04 07:07 · Score: 1

Microsoft's stance is quite understandable. The only way they are going to make money is through licensing software developers and selling their own software for the XBox. This business model is necessary because the market is not accepting of a huge initial investment in hardware (other consoles are cheaper, quality and availability of future gaming titles is uncertain, hardware depreciates rapidly).

Because of this, they must ensure that the software for the platform cannot be pirated. However, the need to base the unit around established technologies such as DVD, USB, and PC architecture makes this extremely difficult. The common man is immediately empowered to manipulate the device, and copy the software, because the tools to do so are widely available. A system based completely on proprietary technology would provide more protection, but would also remove a number of strong selling points and increase development and manufacturing costs dramatically.

I don't know. It seems like a sure fire method of copy protection at the level of the medium would stop a lot of the BS in modern entertainment, because it would allow companies to give the consumer greater flexibility while still protecting their (and the artists/developers) interests. The problem is that all the copy protection mechanisms right now stomp on what would seem to be our right to fair use of our property. If we could distance the two (fair use, preservation of copyright) so that both could be fullfilled at the same time, then maybe we could move forward and stop wasting so much time fighting fires...

My take, anyway! I like the talk of black and white hats, it covers my otherwise normal world in exciting metaphors :)

huh? by binarybum · 2003-07-04 07:10 · Score: 1

I really don't see how this is bad for micro$oft. Their product can do more than ever now and they didn't drop a dime on the R&D. I didn't want to dea l with the modchip hassel, but now I'm thinking of buying an Xbox. bill gates eat your shorts.

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ôó

Re: So it's OK If I by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 07:36 · Score: 0

Congratulations. You have just posted the absolute worst analogy I've ever seen.

Publish the method on how to hack your Garage door opener, So anyone can potentially cause you economic harm?

More like they're publishing a method on how other people can hack their Garage door opener so that they work at a greater distance.

Better yet, I call you, and "request", but "not require", that you give out your garage door code, or else, I will give it out for you.

This just completely falls flat. Are you suggesting that these guys were threatening to give out hacks that would allow anyone to open MS's warehouse to steal XBoxes?

Because that's about the only way your analogy would work.. and it would still be wrong.

More like threatening the company that makes the garage door openers that they will release information that will allow anyone who buys their product to use the garage door opener as a remote car starter.

Hence, 30 years in prison by ingenuus · 2003-07-04 07:39 · Score: 1

They are going to run into the exact same problem with Palladium and TCPA.

Aside from the *extreme* difficulties (virging on impossible) of hacking a bug-free hardware protection system (note that the current system is not hardware based and contains bugs), you are correct, which inevitably leads to the really scary fact that whatever hardware protection they implement, it *must* be accompanied by very harsh legal penalties for cracking it...

After all, suddenly, the same system that will control arbitrary usage and copy rights will also be responsible for protecting all exchange of money and information... our whole economic system could collapse if someone cracked it completely (i.e. beyond a single account).

The legal system and government is where the real problem lies, not in technical capability.

Re:Hence, 30 years in prison by Alsee · 2003-07-04 09:16 · Score: 1

Aside from the *extreme* difficulties (virging on impossible) of hacking a bug-free hardware protection system

I never said it was easy, but it is no where near impossible. You just chemically strip the chip layer by layer and map out the circutry with a high power microscope. Do this with two or three chips and throw away everything that matches between them. You are left with the differences, and the only difference should be in the individual key.

Now I admit I glossed over a lot of technical details and complexity, but the point is that it can be done using a well equiped college lab by a single smart and resourceful student. Given access to the right equipment I have no doubt I could research it and do it myself. I'm sure I'd waste/destroy the first several chips I worked on, but once I got it right I could dig the number out of chip after chip and start passing them out.

I just had an amusing thought, I could use the TCPA system itself to give out these keys securely and anonymously. People could post a public key to a newsgroup anonymously and I could encrypt an extracted key with that public key and post it anonymously on the net. Only the unknown original poster could read/use that extracted key. Even if they catch me I can't tell them who I've given the keys to.

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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Re:Hence, 30 years in prison by Alsee · 2003-07-04 09:25 · Score: 1

P.S.

I just had another thought. They are currently going to great effort stating that TCPA itself is not a DRM system. They sort of half-admit that DRM systems might be run on top of it.

If TCPA itself is not a content protection mechanism then the DMCA wouldn't apply. They'd either have to admit that TCPA itself is a DRM system, or they'd need to change the law. If they admit TCPA is DRM it will help in the public relations fight against it. The other option, changing the law, isn't going to be so easy for them. They got the DMCA passed when no one was paying attention. Now that there is real and aware opposition.

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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Re:Hence, 30 years in prison by ingenuus · 2003-07-07 08:07 · Score: 1

Forgive my absence and the lateness of this response. I enjoyed reading your comments: they're very clever and interesting.

I never said it was easy, but it is no where near impossible. You just chemically strip the chip layer by layer and map out the circutry with a high power microscope.

I have not investigated it in detail, but when I said "virging on impossible," in my mind I was thinking of hardware tamper-proofing (self-destruct) which could significantly increase the difficulty beyond simply analyzing wafers.

Furthermore, using a school's tools for such a venture might not only place the school in legal danger, but the tools would then be considered circumvention devices which are outlawed under the DMCA (part of the insanity that is DMCA), probably requiring all sorts of other new restrictions upon them...

Of course, part of the deviousness of the DMCA is that it cannot easily be invalidated because of the clause allowing a board to determine exceptions as time goes on. I believe academic research is a current exception, but I'm not positive, so it might be legally allowed.

I just had an amusing thought, I could use the TCPA system itself to give out these keys securely and anonymously.

It would be dependent upon the anonymity of newsgroups (relative to the capabilities of the government for tracking -- is my paranoia glaring? :)), but, yeah, that would be pretty funny. :)

I just had another thought. They are currently going to great effort stating that TCPA itself is not a DRM system. They sort of half-admit that DRM systems might be run on top of it.

That's a good point, but as you imply, I think they mean that TCPA is not merely for DRM (it is rather a superset, with one specific use being DRM). In this light, breaking TCPA breaks any DRM based upon TCPA, thereby entering the domain of the DMCA. Though I suppose it depends upon how broadly you define DRM (e.g. perhaps the right to privacy extends DRM to encompass all uses of TCPA).

If they admit TCPA is DRM it will help in the public relations fight against it. The other option, changing the law, isn't going to be so easy for them. They got the DMCA passed when no one was paying attention. Now that there is real and aware opposition.

I agree, and that correlates to the main point I wanted to get across in my previous post: The root problem is a legal one and not a technological one. I'm all for secure communication *under the control of the user*. It is the bad laws (and insane EULAs) that the TCPA is going to try to enforce which should be changed.

See the light by LinuxGeek · 2003-07-04 08:14 · Score: 1

from the article:

For the exchange, we were requesting but not demanding the following:

- Complete access to all documentation (chipsets, video etc.) to assist in developing a better Linux for the XBox.
- A signed Linux loader.
- Protection from Microsoft or support if any organisation/government attempted to prosecute members of our team.
- Refunding of the cost occured during the agreement period.

This is a request that would usually begin a negotiation process. MS refused to even consider the process of negotiating by not responding. The ball was in their court, they had a fish on the line, it was their turn, their light had turned green, they were sitting on the pot, the sun had risen and the bank was open for business.

Am I to assume that you consider not responding to multiple parties over the span of a month to be a valid business tactic.

In other words folks, they, the end user, is DEMANDING that Microsoft do whatever they want -- or else.

Silly me to expect a company to listen to an end user; yes, we bow to the implicit logic of your argument and submit that you are correct.

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Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain

Re:See the light by Drestin · 2003-07-04 14:09 · Score: 1

You miss the obvious: "We request but do not demand" then they prove they are lying by stating they will release a damaging exploit if their demands (oh, sorry "requests") are not met. Plain and simple.
You ask, is not responding a valid business tactic? Lets consider this one: "Hey GM, I want the price of corvettes dropped by 90%" and you keep making that demand. Will you be suprised that GM won't do it? How about if you keep asking over and over that MS port Exchange to run under Linux. Do you expect they'll respond? Give them a solid business reason and maybe you can talk. Tell them unless they port Exchange to Linux you'll release a massive exploit usable against Exchange 2003 and you are a blackmailer or even a terrorist (if you wanna hang that label).
Re:See the light by LinuxGeek · 2003-07-04 17:12 · Score: 1

No, I have not "missed the obvious" and your scenarios are complete bullshit. They did not say "MS drop the xbox price 90% or else".

They did say something like:

MS, we will run linux on unmodified xboxen that we purchased, this you cannot stop. Our method works but also allows copied games to be run so we seek to cooperate with MS to get a signed linux bootloader that will leave security intact.

MS chose to make an appointment to see the exploit and then canceled 24 hours before the meeting. Then they ceased communication and ignored the proposal to cooperate. If I want to run linux on an xbox ( which I don't own yet), then I have one simple choice that would also allow me to play copies of games. If MS had just produced a signed bootloader, then that option would have been limited to just running linux. Don't try to convince me that I should feel sorry for MS because they called the Free-X bluff and they weren't bluffing.

You have no monopoly on xbox enlightenment and perspective. I do not agree with your opinion on what this information means and how MS is the victim. Just because I don't agree dosen't mean I do not understand.

--

Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
Re:See the light by Drestin · 2003-07-05 18:11 · Score: 1

NO MATTER HOW YOU SPIN IT they are saying "Do *something* #or else#" That's the dealeo. They are threatening to do something harmful if they do not get what they want from MS. It's called blackmail - look it up. And we can't wonder/supose if they will or won't - they already did!

Re: So it's OK If I by Alsee · 2003-07-04 08:19 · Score: 1

I agree it would have been simpler if they had just released the information right away.

I don't think it was intended as a "do what we say or else". I think they were trying to "do the right thing" by talking to Microsoft first to try to explore other options. Lets set aside the issue of their intent in their conversation with Microsoft and look at what they look at what is is they released.

how to hack your Garage door opener, So anyone can potentially cause you economic harm?

That isn't even close. If we want silly analogies it's like telling people how to set their AM radio so that they can get FM stations. The fact that Microsoft doesn't want people getting FM on the radios is irrelevant. They sold it, I bought it, and I can use it however I like. There's no reason I shouldn't tell other people how to get FM too.

-

--
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.

YM "sake" by yerricde · 2003-07-04 08:37 · Score: 1

Although it's still way better than Budweiser! (rice beer - boo/hiss!)

Wouldn't "rice beer" be sake?

--
Will I retire or break 10K?

Cracking: Violating security protocols/breaking in by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 08:39 · Score: 0

The correct word for what this is is cracking - see also safe cracking - this is a separate, correct (though arguably informal) usage of the dictionary word (pick any of 6 of the Houghton Mifflin definition, which arguably all apply), and IMHO the Jargon File is arguably wrong for not including it as an alternative definition, as it is technical, commonly confused and defined in mainstream dictionaries.

This is not to be confused with cracking as in 'black-hat' (i.e., bad guy/outlaw) computer 'defacement' or 'trespass' (which is more commonly termed 'hacking', except by those hackers who fit one of the other - often contradictory and much more benign - definitions of 'hacker' and do not like being associated with the black-hats), or the act of breaking into someone else's computers, although both are now illegal and both do refer to the intentional violation of a security protocol. (Neither should be confused with script kiddies, who are a different species altogether, though sometimes they grow up eventually.)

Yes, it's confusing. This is English - it is confusing if you start worrying about how it works and what words actually mean - get used to it.

Oh, and cracking, even for moral purposes, is definitely 'black-hat'. Consider the origin of the term - classic Westerns. Convention dictates that for easy identification (presumably!) the sheriffs wear white hats, the outlaws wear black hats. This is true even if the law is the villain and the outlaw is the hero of a particular Western. Law => security protocol, Officers => those creating/supporting the protocol, Outlaw => someone seeking to violate the protocol.

Thus a cracker, who violates the protocols for fun (and sometimes profit), would very probably wear a black hat (unless he/she's been deputized as a corporate sellout ;)).
</rant>

Also by dolson · 2003-07-04 09:16 · Score: 1

You might want an Xbox just as a DVD player, and then maybe buy bargain-bin games later on, a few years down the road. So you buy the console and the DVD kit. Microsoft doesn't make all that money back on the DVD kit alone... Time to get sued.

Re:honestly... reverse social engineering by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 09:17 · Score: 0

Since I have not made any hardware modifications to my xbox, my warranty is intact.

From the Xbox warranty (UK/IE version, others may and probably will vary):

"The term 'Xbox Product' means the Microsoft Xbox Video Game System console, the Microsoft software stored on the hard disc and embedded in microprocessors within the Xbox console, and Xbox preipheral products purchased with the Xbox Video Game System console." ...
"However, if you:
(i) do not use the Xbox Product in accordnce with the accompany documentation and use instructions; or
(ii) have the Xbox Product repaired, modified or altered by other than Microsoft authorised repair centres; or
(iii) use the Xbox Product with products not sold or licensed by Microsoft (for example, non-licensed game enhancement devices, adapters and power supply sources) or which are not compatible with the device; or
(iv) use the Xbox Product for commercial purposes (such as rental); or
(v) modify or tamper with the Xbox Product; or
(vi) damage the Xbox Product by misuse, abuse, negligence or by accident; or
(vii) altern, deface or remove the serial number;
(viii) remove the warrantly seal on the Xbox Product,
then this guarantee is not valid."

Note particularly (iii). Use [it] with products not sold or licensed by Microsoft? Does this include running software not licensed by Microsoft to run on the Xbox such as, say, Xbox Linux? I'd say probably. Unfortunately by that wording, does it include playing CD audio and DVD video discs? Are CD audio discs all sold or licensed by Microsoft? Tricky.

Of course, this does not affect your statutory rights. If you take your Xbox home and the damn thing has its graphics chip overheat and fail despite lots of ventilation in a reasonably cold room, that particular Xbox ain't of merchantable quality and you can (at your option) opt for a refund or replacement from the retailer from which you purchased it.

Oh, and IANAL. You'd probably need AL to figure out exactly what that warranty means.

Outsmarting the devil is Black Art, not Blackmail by daniel23 · 2003-07-04 09:29 · Score: 1

> How these guys could know so much about the X-box but understand so little about what happens to anyone who trys to make a deal with Microsoft is what is really amazing.

Funny how this reminds me of all those folk tales about people trying to make a deal with the devil.

Some poor guy(s) who meet a man of wealth and taste (with a bad leg) who offers them mountains of gold if they just sign this little contract...
They do and they get all the richdom.
And then, when he returns on the set date to collect the souls, the little men try to outsmart him (by means of pentagrams, chalk circles, asking the devil's grandmother for help etc.) In those folk tales they usually succeed.
This is a popular theme; every evening I read a folk tale when I bring my kids to bed and those where the devil is tricked they like best.

--
605413? Yes, it's a prime.

Re:This is what MS says by Purple+Library+Guy · 2003-07-04 09:30 · Score: 1

The software may be licensed, not sold, but the conditions are not violated by the hack. It says "You are licensed to use such software only in your Xbox product and you may not reverse engineer it, except as expressly permitted by applicable law notwithstanding this limitation". Well, the hack does not replicate the software or in any way use it outside the Xbox. And it doesn't reverse engineer the software either--it wipes some away and replaces it, yes? So, it remains legal. The hardware, you own. The software, you're not violating the license of. No problem. Which in turn means that, *even if* one construes the behaviour of the people who came up with the hack as blackmail, *it remains completely kosher* to make use of their hack. Similarly, with respect to normal blackmail, if a blackmailer releases incriminating information about a politician it remains OK for a reporter to publish that information; incriminating information about politicians isn't illegal in itself. They wish.

Adding to the list: Toasters by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 09:33 · Score: 0

How 'bout toasters?

Next year:

"You may only fry our bread in this toaster!"

Molon Labe! by mousse-man · 2003-07-04 09:37 · Score: 1

The MS lawyers can come, they won't be able to do a whole lot in Western Europe as by far not every country has a counterpart to the DMCA.

Probably the folks from the Free-X team will be the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae, and Stefan Esser could well become the new incarnation of King Leonidas.

Maybe this time, Bill Gates will hear the battle cry "Molon Labe!"

Re:Bush: We will not bend to these terrorist deman by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 10:18 · Score: 0

We will not bargain with terrorists.

Fortunately, GOD kept his covenant that he bargained with mankind, and stopped Dubya's finger from pressing the big red "nook"-button on that infamous day:

And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

There really is a good reason for this law... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 10:38 · Score: 0

The reason why selling below cost is illegal in some countries is 'cause it can create a totally unfair advantage to a big company or monopoly and, thus, cripling the market by eliminating competition.

For instance, suppose I'm a startup company that wants to sell a product. Because I'm starting from nothing, it's going to be rather hard enough as it is. Not only can I probably not sell my units at a loss, if the competition is huge (like Microsoft), they can arbitrarily undercut me and just pay out of there pockets. They can do so just long enough for me to go out of business (while everyone is buying the competition 'cause it's so artificially cheap) and, after I'm gone, put their prices back to normal.

In fact, I don't even have to be a startup. As long as you are _much_ bigger than me, you can arbitrarily undercut me and put me out of business.

This is totally unfair, of course, so there are laws preventing companies from doing _exactly_this._

Does it seem so unreasonable now?

Hanz and Franz by michaelhood · 2003-07-04 11:14 · Score: 1

We're here to.. pump, you, up!

Re:(Re:Full text of article in case of /. effect) by Angry+Pixie · 2003-07-04 11:24 · Score: 1

in case you hadn't noticed, they weren't demanding anything, they were requesting.

There's not a lot of difference between a demand and a request backed by threat. BR

Decode Files by bottlerocket · 2003-07-04 12:26 · Score: 1

If you don't want to be bothered by decoding the files yourself, you can download them here.

--
where the comment ends and sig begins

Author is Stefan Esser by thopo · 2003-07-04 15:32 · Score: 1

What are you people blind? It is signed be STEFAN ESSER. Whois nosecurity.de and you get:

[admin-c]
Type: PERSON
Name: Stefan Esser
Address: Ober Buschweg 9a
City: Köln
Pcode: 50999
Country: DE

Köln = Cologne ... you can pay him a visit and thank him, or not. I bet an attractive female lawyer was send by MS to "negotiate" things while i'm typing this! Oh well life can be so cruel, exploiting every geeks weakness!

--
keep it simple.

Why bother? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 16:19 · Score: 0

I know people think Microsoft is the devil... blah blah blah, and they would do anythign to be a thorn in their side.

People have argued that the XBOX makes a great cheap linux box? All I have to say is, "ARE you kidding me?"

Come on who wants to take the time to mod a P3-733 Nvidia Geforce 2 with a 8GB hardrive an DVD player... when you can buy the same system for that price and be able to upgrade it at a later date. Hell, spend about $50 more and you can get a P4 from pricewatch.com,

It's a great proof of concept... but only an idiot would buy an XBOX just to run linux on.

I use my XBOX for gaming... and Linux is my OS on my P4... woudl I drop a bit of solder onto my XBOX just so I could run linux? Not bloody likely.

For those people who want to stick it to Microsoft... stick to pirating their software. This console thing is just stupid.

Re:Why bother? by benna · 2003-07-05 00:23 · Score: 1

Please don't tell me you REALLY don't get it this much. A few people will install linux. This is about piracy. I am not saying I have a problem with that but thats what its about. People need to stop pretending its about linux.

--
"It is not how things are in the world that is mystical, but that it exists." -Ludwig Wittgenstein

*Ware EULAs by The+Monster · 2003-07-04 16:48 · Score: 1

And this differs from a software EULA how? I buy Windoze, and I have to open an envelope with the "signify acceptance" phrase - after I have purchased the item.

Has such a software EULA ever been tested in court? I think you'd have a lot of trouble convicting someone of violating an 'agreement' that was not explained to him before he ponied up his cash.

Things are a bit different with the site licenses that major software vendors negotiate (key word here) with their medium-to-large-sized customers. In those cases, both parties agree to the terms before any money changes hands. And my lay understanding of contract law is that the key elements are:

"A meeting of the minds", demonstrated by
- Offer
- Acceptance
Consideration - You may notice that a lot of contracts use the phrase "For the sum of One Dollar, and other valuable consideration" - the contract has to give some value to each party or it can't be valid.

A quick google on the phrase 'elements of contract' turns up this, which is a Canadian site but still based on the principles of Anglo-Saxon jurisprudence that rules 49 States and the District of Columbia (Louisiana is based on the French legal traditions):

No conditions can be attached to the acceptance and the terms of the offer can not be changed. If conditions are attached or terms are changed, the parties are merely negotiating and may ultimately reach agreement on the terms of the contract.

So if the condition is attached by Microsoft in such a manner that the condition is not made known to the purchaser before he pays for the item in question, it can be reasonably argued that no agreement has in fact been reached and you are using the *ware with an implied license rather than the explicit one printed on the envelope.

The big issue with software is that in order to execute a computer program, it must be copied from nonvolatile storage into RAM, which some think invokes Copyright. I'm not convinced that the law has been properly applied here, but that's why I'm a computer geek instead of a lawyer.

--

[100% ISO 646 Compliant]
SVM, ERGO MONSTRO.

Re:*Ware EULAs by mesocyclone · 2003-07-05 06:34 · Score: 1

I don't know if it has been tested in court. However, it would be extremely surprising to me if Microsoft and all other software manufacturers used the EULA's, nobody has even challenged them, and they are no good.

In other words, Occam's Razor says that they work.

--
The only good weather is bad weather.
Re:*Ware EULAs by jafuser · 2003-07-05 11:10 · Score: 1

"Occam's Razor", from the sci.skeptic FAQ:

"In more modern terms, if you have two theories which both explain the observed facts then you should use the simplest until more evidence comes along."

Here's more evidence.

Basically, it's up to the court. Sometimes it's enforced, and other times it is thrown out. There is no clear indication either way, so it can be assumed that they are NOT legally binding, but they are used as a guide for consumer advisory.

However, the UCITA will chage all of this, and make all shrinkwrap licenses legally binding.

What does this mean? Corporations will now essentially have the power to pass laws upon their customers. If the UCITA passes, then it will be the first significant step towards a corporate police state.

--
Please consider making an automatic monthly recurring donation to the EFF
Re:*Ware EULAs by mesocyclone · 2003-07-05 11:44 · Score: 1

Read your own examples. All of them that apply to shrinkwrap were upheld. The indications are completely clear.

What was unclear was "clickwrap" which is very different.

So thank for some authoritative info. As Occam's Razor suggests, shrinkwrap is binding.

--
The only good weather is bad weather.

Anyone remember the Dreamcast Boot Disk Exploit? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 16:57 · Score: 0

I think this exploit will have a pretty big impact on this machine. Remember the exploit in the Dreamcast that allowed people to play copied games without a modchip but just a special boot disk? This sounds like the same type of thing (if it works) plus it is happening much earlier than it did for the Dreamcast which was on its way out the door when it happened. It will be interesting to see what happens now...

This is in Freenet already. :) by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 17:15 · Score: 0

CHK@Zydww2EHMUDqiE5W8nKFKlm8MrsQAwI,mN2TJ6Xe6I-us3 slmNSjpw/xploit.html

And I agree, Freenet is an ideal place for this. The network suckage has been going down lately, and as for the lack of content, you've got only yourself to blame. Publish something!

Article text for when M$ gets this site pulled by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 17:59 · Score: 0

XBOX Security

-= Security Advisory =-

Advisory: XBOX Dashboard local vulnerability
Release Date: 2003/07/04
Last Modified: 2003/07/04
Author: Stefan Esser [se@nopiracy.de]

Application: Microsoft XBOX Dashboard (up to today)
Severity: A vulnerability within the XBOX Dashboard allows to
totally compromise the security features of the XBOX.
Risk: Critical
Vendor Status: Vendor is not willing to talk about XBOX vulnerabilities.

Overview:

The XBOX Dashboard is what appears when you turn the XBOX on without a
disc in the DVD drive. It will let you adjust system settings, manage
your save games, play and rip audio CDs and configure your XBOX Live
account. It is the heart of the XBOX and its most vulnerable point,
because it lacks several security restrictions which are enforced on
games. This includes the lack of the reboot-on-eject-button "feature",
which is obligatory for all games.

The existance of an exploitable vulnerability within the dashboard could
totally compromises the XBOX security system. It will make the box
independent from Microsoft signed code and therefore this information is
released to the public now on the 4th of July 2003, the day of the XBOX
Independence.

Details:

Microsoft knows that a vulnerability within the XBOX dashboard could
have serious impact. This is underlined by the fact that the dashboard
checks most of its files against an internal stored SHA1 hash value
before it uses them.

For an unknown reason this check is not performed on the audio (.wav)
and font (.xtf) files. Unfourtunately for Microsoft there exists an
exploitable integer underflow vulnerabilitiy within the font file loader
which can be exploited with a malformed font file. When the XTF header
is processed the dashboards reads a 4 byte blocksize field from the font
file. This is expected to represent the size of some datablock including
the 4 bytes of the size field itself. The blocksize is then allocated
and the sizefield is copied into the beginning of the buffer. This is
already a possible overflow bug when the field contains the values 0..3.
Due to memory alignment this is not exploitable. But then the blocksize
is decreased by 4 because the dashboard wants to read the rest of the
block into memory. Obviously values of 0..3 will underflow when
decreased by 4 and this results in the dashboard wanting to read up to
~4 gigabytes of data from the font file in a f.e. 3 bytes buffer.

Because the XBOX malloc()/free() implementation is also storing control
information inbound and is similiar to the Windows 2000/XP heap
allocators this bug is exploitable and allows execution of arbitrary
code. The attached proof of concept code shows that exploiting is
possible with offsets that are equal on all dashboards and XBOX versions
known.

BTW: the dashboard loads its font files directly after the XBOX start
animation. This means the exploit does not need any user
interaction and when the code is executed only part of the
dashboard background is on screen.

Proof of Concept:

Attached you will find a proof of concept exploit which will start
linux. To install it you have to rename the 2 XBOX font files within the
font directory of the dashboard partition and then copy ernie.xtf and
bert.xtf into this directory. (If you have an XBOX with an older
dashboard the font directory does not exist and you must do the renaming
and file adding work in the main directory). Once the new fonts are in
place you copy the default.xbe (which is a copy of xbeboot) into the
main directory and add your favourite linux to it.

Trust

Re:Article text for when M$ gets this site pulled by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 18:02 · Score: 0

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Re:Article text for when M$ gets this site pulled by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 18:06 · Score: 0

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Re:Article text for when M$ gets this site pulled by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 18:13 · Score: 0

I apoligize but due to slashdot filter I can not complete this posting. Hopefully the body of the message will be of use to you if microsoft ever gets the article pulled.

Read the fine print, person by rpresser · 2003-07-04 19:32 · Score: 1

The Xbox is *NOT* sold as a lease-only device. It is sold as a hardware device with a license for its software. I OWN the plastic metal and silicon; I am legally allowed to do anything with the object that I please, as long as I violate no laws. This includes playing licensed games, running linux, using it as a boat anchor or for target practice, selling it or renting it to others, jamming it up my anus ... Microsoft has no say in what I do with the hardware.

This is because Microsoft did not release this device as lease-only hardware. They sold it to me. If they had wanted to lease it to me, then their rights would be different; however, you can be damned sure I wouldn't touch one of the goddamned things.

Re:Dude, they're in AUSTRIA ..Where the hell is th by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 21:23 · Score: 0

American Geography

Re:Hardware EULAs tsarkon reports by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-04 22:00 · Score: 0

try and collect on that. its fucking impossible.

and when a EULA says something cannot be resold, it admits what is being EULAized is WORTHLESS.

Cars have resale value. Planes do too. So do computers. Everything with VALUE has RESALE VALUE.

EULA are such bullshit. And there is no LEMON LAWS against fucked up software. Software companies that dont make money have to be stupid morons, because right now its the SWEETESTZ liability free fuck the customer in the ass business on EARTH.

You did agree to a license. by nurb432 · 2003-07-04 22:08 · Score: 1

Have you ever read a EULA? Early on in most of them you 'agree to this license'. That you agree you dont own the software, only a right to use it under certian conditions.

Since both parties agree, and there was an exchange of something of value it sure sounds like a binding contract to me. You do have the option of not agreeing, but you dont retain right to use.

Currently most HAVE been upheld.. true not all, but most.

So its not an illusion. and you CAN agree to waive various rights via contracs. Its done every day.

Yes, it SHOULD be an illusion, but currently its reality.

Btw you dont own the content of a record either..

--
---- Booth was a patriot ----

Re:You did agree to a license. by Gregg+M · 2003-07-05 01:17 · Score: 0

Have you ever read a EULA? Early on in most of them you 'agree to this license'. That you agree you dont own the software, only a right to use it under certian conditions.
Wrong! I bought the software (with my laptop lets say). I own it. Whether I have to click a EULA button or not, I own it.
Since both parties agree, and there was an exchange of something of value it sure sounds like a binding contract to me. You do have the option of not agreeing, but you dont retain right to use.
Wrong! I already own the software. I don't need to agree to conditions. Microsoft can write anything they want into their EULAs. It doesn't make it legal. You can't force terms upon someone after they own something. Ford can't force me to buy goodyear tires either. Leases may be another story, but sales are sales,not licenses.
Currently most HAVE been upheld.. true not all, but most.
Wrong again!
Check this article out. I know it's linux journal but the quote is from a Judge.
"The Court understands fully why licensing has many advantages for software publishers. However, this preference does not alter the Court's analysis that the substance of the transaction at issue here is a sale and not a license," Judge Pregerson writes. If you put your money down and walked away with a CD, you bought that copy, EULA or no EULA.
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=5628
Btw you dont own the content of a record either..
Did I say I own the "content" of a record? I said I own a record. I can resell the record just like I can resell the book or movie I bought. I can play it backwards in search of hidden messages or figure out the guitar parts note for note. (reverse engineering :) They can't put conditions on it. I OWN IT!
Record companies tried to change the law. In 1993 they tried to stop stores that sell used CDs. Garth Brooks even went on TV to cry about it. But they failed. Just look it up in copyright law.

--
Linux is only free if your time has no value. Windows is only free if you threaten to use Linux.

M$ and Xbox will be fine by TrezTheAmazingRuski · 2003-07-05 01:33 · Score: 1

This exploit won't cause Microsoft too many problems... this is why they didn't agree to the demands of Free-X.

Only certain types of Xbox (the older ones) have the exploit, only a certain bios (an Xbox live one... which can be fixed very quickly) can be exploited and Linux is the only unsigned code that will currently work.

It doesn't hurt Microsoft for this to have happened! That's why they don't care... they'll fix the bios. So what... it's a few bucks cheaper and a little easier than buying a mod chip and doing it yourself... but in order to get it to work in the first place you need a copy of 007 or Mech Assualt... which is more expensive than getting a mod chip installed. Sure it doesn't void your warranty but why go through the hassle of waiting for Xbox Linux Media Players, Emulators etc when they are already available for use if you've got a mod chip.

Comments?

They tried to work with Microsoft by Felinoid · 2003-07-05 02:08 · Score: 1

Plain and simple they tried to work with Microsoft.
Microsoft viewed them as a group of extream Linux zellots (as they'd clame we all are) and simply refused to open a dialog with the team.
They wanted to talk with Microsoft about the exploite and what to do about it.
Microsoft could have even sent a nasty gram at that time if they so wished but chouse not to do even that much.
The team got accused of stuff and failed to establish any sort of dialog contract or business agreement.

Failing to make contact they did the only reasonable thing.
The team did not want to enable piracy on the Xbox and the soft mod would do that.
The team wanted a reasonable alternitive for installing Linux but Microsoft was under no obligations to comply.
It was the openning of contract talks with a laundry list of requests. Being paid? Ok that was was clearly added to be removed later. Microsoft needed to open up with it's own list of offers and requests and arrange a meeting.
Like "No more Linux on xbox"

--
I don't actually exist.

"Black"mail by CapnWacky · 2003-07-07 07:43 · Score: 1

I think there's a negative connotation to the word blackmail that is not necessarily logical. In a free market, does such a service offered by the "blackmailer" not have a price?

--
god's lonely man

Re:Can someone tell me briefly . . . . by Sycraft-fu · 2003-07-10 17:14 · Score: 1

Late reply I know.

Why? Because you can. One of the big things with Linux, for good or ill, seems to be porting it to every platform you can think of, and many you can't. I'm sure some hacker somewhere is trying to get Linux to run on a Bic ballpoint pen :).

It seems to have no real point, just the challenge of making it happen.

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Xbox Linux Made Possible Without a Modchip

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