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What Should a Documentary Filmmaker Ask About Offshoring?
Philadelphia-area development economics and finance student Rachel Anderika and her associate, programmer/filmmaker Krishnan, are making a documentary about the effects of offshore outsourcing. Their "still under construction" Web site, Project Outsourced, gives you more information about their work. They're interviewing economists, bankers, anti-outsourcing advocacy groups, pro-outsourcing CEOs, columnists, and others. Where you come in is helping Rachel and Krishnan come up with good questions to ask. We'll forward 10 - 15 of the highest-moderated ones posted here (within the next 24 hours) to them. Expect summaries (and possibly audio or video clips) of the answers in late May, and news about the finished film this Fall.
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Valence Technology
VA Software
Veritas
Verizon
Here is a list of companies that use outsourcing.
I am appalled the companies would shift labor to lower-cost locations. This practice should not be tolerated. Now excuse me as I will get into my Honda and drive to nearest Wal-Mart for that 2-for-1 sale on Nike shoes and shirts, can't miss a deal like that.
When the cost of labor in Africa is even cheaper?
What is the end of the line for the capitalist?
Stop corporate
The one question I have never been able to get a straight answer on. What field should the millions of displaced American IT workers get trained in?
It is always sais that people should be responsbile and learn new skills and train in a new field. When the farm economy shifted to manufacturing, people learned factory work. When manufacturing started to be offshored people were advised to get into IT. What field should people start to train in? Bush talks about training displaced workers, but I haven't heard anything about what their supposed to train in. What is the next new economy, retail?
Geek jobs come under threat. Suddenly geeks lose libertarian leanings* and belatedly side with the ex-manufacturing workers who bullied them through High School
*For ENTIRELY unrelated reasons, obviously. No hypocrisy here at all
A documentary is important and I would fully support one being created (Disclaimer: my first major in college was documentary film), but perhaps more importantly, that documentary would be made much stronger if it would include some hard numbers and studies including rigorous statistics on just how offshoring is helping (or hurting) the 1) corporation, 2) worker, 3) consumer. Perhaps not just the viewpoint in the US as an interesting perspective could be made from the person getting the job.
So, here is the deal: Documentaries are often about perspective but ideally, they are about finding the truth and revealing that truth to your viewer. Political perspectives are going to be difficult to get, but contact someone like Robert Reich who could place you in touch with a variety of folks in and out of the political scene.
bob@RobertReich.org
Robert Reich
P.O. Box 381483
Cambridge, MA 02238
(617) 547-2206
Fax: (617) 498-0048
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
What sort of responsibility to create jobs should a company have to the nation that purchases/has a demand for the goods they're producing?
"Expect summaries (and possibly audio or video clips)"
Pah, I'm sorry, but with your decreased labour costs, I'd expect nothing less than a 6-hour trilogy... and a bonus 'making of' disc!
Very simply, do overseas workers cause more problems than they create? When it comes to programming, coordinating projects between two centers in different facilities in a single country is hard enough. Adding culture and language differences to the mix while not being able to have direct and on-site meetings to architect a complex program, is that a recipe for disaster? With overseas call centers, do you keep enough future customers due to deficiencies in customer support to make it financially viable to continue offshoring support? How do you cooordinate high-level management objectives with an office across the world?
Ask the arguments of the other side as questions.
For example, ask the anti-outsourcing advocates what the cost in non-visible jobs is by engaging in protectionism of the highly visible tech jobs lost to outsourcing.
Then ask the pro-outsourcing folks a question like how will the economy absorb the displaced workers resulting from outsourcing.
This will make each side actually defend their position instead of using you as a sounding platform for their agenda.
You can tell a great deal about the character of a man by observing those who hate him.
when the "Cowboy Neal" option started being replaced with "Bhagavad Neal"!
her associate, programmer/filmmaker Krishnan
Dear Krishnan,
Where will the film be produced?
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
can you find me a job?
I also reply below your current threshold.
(but who cares)
.. has the standard of living, for those working for American companies, increased at all? Or are the jobs just barely paying the bills like any other job might?
My question is
On last night's show - 60 MINUTES claimed that India has the highest percentage of AIDS cases in the world, overtaking Africa.
What I would like included in such a documentary is what the effect of outsourcing to India has on the effect of "bringing diseases back home"?
It seems a lot of executives in India are starting to get infected - so in turn wouldn't those executives and "American workers" that may travel there have a higher susceptability to contracting the AIDs virus?
Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
Africa doesn't have the education levels, yet. But when they do, we'll be there.
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
Is outsourcing seen in the public eye as helping or destroying an economy? I mean, on the one hand, we're loosing jobs locally, but on the other hand it's creating thousands of jobs in 3rd world countries. I heard someone say before every one job here is worth three jobs offshore, for the same amount of money. I guess the question is, are companies benefiting by getting more bang for the buck out of employees helping the economy locally, if not the job market, while at the same time helping the economies of other countries by creating jobs? A penny saved is a penny earned, potentially spent locally.
Seriously.
I am so sick of people whining "outsourcing sent my job to India" then walking out the door to climb into their Toyota. I'm sorry that your job has been outsourced, I am. But don't you realize that your decisions sent others to the same fate--where was your sense of moral outrage then?
Our government positions outsourced to other countries, yet the CDC has a policy of buying airline tickets from US companies over foreign airlines.
Our foreign aid also favors purchasing from US companies abroad over local companies. (Who are we really aiding?)
How does your documentary view the hypocricy of outsourcing when it appears to favor US companies, not US employees?
i can even build websites. i'm just letting you know. not that you'd need a website developer or anything. just sayin.
I also reply below your current threshold.
Nearly every person who has defended offshoring has said that the practice is good for the economy. And yet, that doesn't necessarily translate into a job for you and me. Since it's mostly big coroporations that are benefiting from this, should be be so ready to embrace offshoring as a boon for our economy?
The topic of outsourcing has been features in slashdot many times.
Bottomline: Whenever outsourcing is mentioned (or MSFT), I always see comments bashing India and saying that outsourcing is bad.
As an American, I think this puts us as a Xenophobic and protectionist bunch.
I will be glad when people stop this mindless bashing and become more open-minded like a true capitalist!
What effect do you feel the outsourcing of professional jobs has on the economy? When manufacturing moves offshore, it's easy to say we'll all be employed with "knowledge jobs", but what happens when the knowledge jobs move offshore? Doesn't this equate to leaving our own highly skilled individuals unemployed/underemployed while we're pumping money into a foriegn economy via payroll? If we oursource our professional jobs, where will stateside consumers get the money to purchase the (now cheaper?) products? Is a "service only" economic model sustainable for the United States?
My question would be... If the US is outsourcing many areas and this in tern is bringing the other countries up in the economic levels, then what can US workers and companies do to stay ahead of the curve and continue to be a worlk leader?
At the rate we are going with outsourcing jobs and having decreasing technical educational levels (studies have shown drops in math in science all the way through college) by the time i am old we will not be tha major world power anymore. Other countries will have taken that from us.
Evolution or ID?
What are the positive and negative effects on the offshore locations?
Are these positive and negative effects distributing themselves evenly through these societies, or is it effecting and effected by existing class and social structures?
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
As an informed, identity-paranoid IT person:
How will my SSN and other personal information be secured from workers who have zero responsibility to secure it, from a legal perspective?
Offshoring jobs increases the management/labor revenue split.
Isn't offshoring just a way to make the rich richer without regard for the American working class?
Isn't it evidence that the wealthy have no regard for those who must do work to stay alive?
Isn't it an utter repudiation of the widely held belief that concentration of capital is good for all of us?
Isn't it a strong reminder that the only thing that keeps capitalism alive is tolerance of the working man for the profligacy of the non-working class?
I'm no socialist, but I know a revolt when I see one coming. The rich in this country will be lucky if they aren't killed, cooked, and eaten before it's done.
I'd like to know how the executives of these outsourcing companies feel about the level of customer service, and how the quality of these services is going down due to language barriers, and lack of knowledge. David James
Not just the total, but a per-dejobbed-person average.
You're looking for quotes? See my journal.
One difficult aspect with this type of documentary is that will be very easy for them to find disgruntled/laid-off workers to interview -- i.e. people who have been "hurt" by outsourcing -- whereas it will be much harder to find people to interview who have benefitted from outsourcing.
The reason for this is not that there are no people who benefit from outsourcing -- quite the contrary -- but the benefits are much more evenly distributed than the downsides.
In essence: You can easily track down the 1 person who lost a $1000 project, but it's harder to track down the 1000 who saved $1 on their groceries at Wal-Mart.
If the directors are un-biased, they'll work around this somehow. Otherwise, it'll be yet another worthless sermon for the choir.
- What effect has losing a job to out-sourcing had on you personally, including all aspects -- mental, physical, financially, etc. (This one obviously needs to be asked to someone (or many someones) who have lost a job because it got outsourced.
- Who is supposed to pay for tech workers retraining themselves in new fields? I see so many companies/organizations saying that US tech workers even enjoy retraining for new fields, but they never mention how a newly unemployed (thanks to outsourcing) person is supposed to PAY for that retraining.
Personally I would LOVE to see the people who go on about US tech workers just need to retrain for a new field asked #2. I doubt you'll find many (if any) that will answer on the record though.Rather than people using anecdotal evidence to criticize outsourcing, how about using some statistics? 6,000 jobs have been lost overseas over the past three years to outsourcing.
I hope people understand that the reason they were fired was most likely not outsourcing but economic downturn.
I am defenseless. Use your button. Mod me down with all of your hatred.
Increasingly, I'm seeing reports of companies offshoring fixed expenses, such as design, engineering, or development, instead of offshoring only variable expenses, such as support services. The latter is disgusting, but could make business sense, since it's a cost duplicated by each unit sold, and so reducing that cost adds directly to the bottom line. From an economic perspective, the latter makes no sense to me. After all, if the company is amortizing a cost over millions of units shipped, then how can there be a competitive advantage in reducing that cost?
Can you explain what the advantage is?
To the CEOs of the outsourcing companies:
Is the outsourcing really cheaper when the total costs are figured, or is this move a way to show shareholders that you're doing some cutting in the down economy?
Hot Damn! It's the Soggy Bottom Boys!
Everytime people read an article about outsourcing, they are getting mad ...
My question is:
How do you think the rising salaries in India are going to affect the current outsourcing trend?
In Soviet Russia, I ruled you
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Common sense can be deceptive. Common sense says that outsourcing will destroy American jobs, but actually, in the long run, outsourcing will help to preserve jobs and Western society.
How? First, please visit the web site that explains "H-1B Myths ". Professor Matloff, who teaches computer science at a top-notch university, has campaigned tirelessly to terminate the H-1B program.
Anyhow, we have only 2 choices.
1. H-1B employment but no outsourcing.
2. Outsourcing but no H-1B employment.
The second choice is best and will result in the long-term gain of jobs for Americans. The United States of America (USA) is a big market, and companies will set up shop in the USA once their share of the market reaches a certain critical size. As well, domestic content laws facilitate this trend. Toyota and Honda are excellent examples; they have built huge manufacturing and design facilities in the USA.
Further, by terminating H-1B employment, you ensure that American jobs stay with Americans.
The second choice also directly deals with the strongest bogus argument by unethical American companies like Intel and possibly Google. Even when Silicon Valley has 8% unemployment, they insist that cannot find American workers for critical jobs and that they must hire H-1Bs. We in the Slashdot community should say, "Fine. Go set up shop overseas. There is plenty of labor there."
I mean really.. whats the point. Off shore outsourcing is putting IDIOTS out of work and thats about it. Were talking about help (hell) desk people here. Nobody really usefull. Nobody actually competant. Why should a company pay more for the same level icompetence? Personally i think says volumes about mistakes made by americans and its government that all the jobs are going outside the US. "Because its cheaper" isn't the only reason they move these services off shore. "Becuase its cheaper and better" is why they do it. The biggest complaint people seem to have is "english isn't even their native language." If that isn't a bigotted, racist statement to make i don't know what is.
-Polyhead-
(+5, provocative statement, but sadly true)
Ok, so lets say I have a piece of software on the computer sitting under my desk that automagically writes programs. I write detailed design specs, then run a shell script, say ./program.sh . A week or two later, I have a written program. Would anybody object to the creation of such a program? No, of course not.
But if, instead of DELL writing programs, it's 5 guys in Bangalore, and my computer simply acts as a communications point, then suddenly we're getting out the pitchforks and torches? Why the difference? I ask my Economics classes this every course, and I've yet to hear a reasonable answer...it all comes back to "but those are PEOPLE", as if them being Intels, or AMDs, or chickens would make it more acceptable.
Remember the scare about robots in the 1980's? Remember the chicken littles running around warning of the disappearance of jobs in America, as we were all replaced by robots? It's happening again.
PC.
Hire some Indians to do the work for you. You pay them pennies while you make millions.
Considering this, can the short-term financial gains really offset the long-term benefits a loyal and motivated workforce provide?
Trade is supposed to be about give and take. You give something and you get something in return.
If Indians do programming work for Americans, what do they want in return? Dollars of course, but somewhere down the line that has to translate back into American goods or services. What exactly is it that Indians want in the way of American goods and services?
But still, I would be interested to know how whether the programmers in third world countries who use and profit from open source ever give any code or patches back to the original project.
It seems like most Asian cultures are averse to anything resembling charity. The native chinese (not HK or Taiwan) I've known have all been cut-throat competitive, to the point that giving ANYTHING away is seen as nothing short of crazy.
What impact does outsourcing higher paying jobs to a poor country have on that country's economy? For instance when Dell sent support jobs to india, they were paying those support people many many times what most indians make, paying them with money from selling a product most indians could never afford. I would imagine that those with the outsourced jobs would be consuming a lot more than normal, which would drive up prices for things like housing, transportation, and cloths. These higher prices would negatively impact the average person trying to purchase those things, meaning that the average indian is worse off for having these higher paying jobs in their country.
I don't know about the rest of you, but i would love to see Penn and Teller's view on outsourcing. I recommend everyone watch their show Penn & Teller's Bullshit. Im actually surprised they offer great insight to things people think they know about. This show has given me many facts and insights into disagreements i have had with many in the past. They put into words and supported it with facts what i have said to others about many things before.
A Fatal OE Exception has occurred, Sig will now reboot.
How has outsourcing affected India; individuals doing outsourcing work, companies involved with it and Indian in general?
In Soviet Russia, I ruled you
The promise of outshoring has always been cheaper goods, but housing in the Western world and particularly the large tech centers in the US have largely been supported by the higher salaries of white collar workers. Because white collar workers in virtually every profession are now subject to offshoring, what is the projected impact on the housing markets, as well as the financial health of mortgage granters such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? My concern is that the housing market will crash, causing defaults and undermining the overall economy. I would also ask the same question regarding automobile manufacturers' sales, and if outsourcing will do the same for their markets, as well as auto loan granters.
How do your customers feel about having to deal with someone on the other end of the phone is in an entirely different cultual environment and who cannot relate to the problem?
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
Ugh. White man comes to America, takes away all precious, precious land from Indians.
Now, Indians take away precious, precious income from white man in return.
What goes around comes around, as white man says.
The question I would like most answered is this:
Yes, IT jobs seem to be outsourced to foriegn countries, but specifically what sectors of IT, and for what purpose? Not for what gain, as that is fairly obvious - saving money - but what is the function that these outsourced jobs fill? For call centers, this is fairly obvious, but what about for programming? What kind of programming is being done off-shore? What kind of programming cannot for saftey reasons, intellectual property reasons and other reasons be moved out of the US?
Similarly for other sectors of the IT field - what are the limits, and why?
I am concerned about the off handed, racist remarks I have seen and heard. I would like to see that touched upon. Also, the connection between insurance companies and other investors with grotesquely large amounts of money, investing their funds in businesses thus forcing them to work towards the bottom line and going with the cheapest solution.
I'm on record for saying that working 100, 80, even 60 hours per week regularly is dysfunctional and counterproductive. There are other management fads that are likewise dysfunctional and counterproductive.
To what extent is outsourcing being driven by staff resistance to management demands? What kinds of demands are being resisted?
This question can be put to both the pro and anti sides.
"Beer is proof God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- B. Franklin
I'm a freshmen in college, (but this applies to anyone around my age group), what in the hell is going to happen to the tech hobs in the next 4 years? (how many years I have until graduation)
We all live on the same planet so there can't be any such thing as outsourcing in a world with trade.
The people of the rich countries hve been happy to eat cheap (though artificially expensive!) food for years.
The short term costs to the newly jobless are high but in a world ecnomony eventually the disparity between one country and another should shrink, unless the disparity is kept open artificially.
Seems not many are complaining that their cheap laptops are built from cheap labour, or cheap shoes. Take a look at the balance of trade for the countries of the world. The US and UK are net importers. China and Taiwan are net exporters. One should consider the long term consequences of this pattern.
We have exploited the disparity for a long long time.
When the pony comes home, pay up, pay up, pay up.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
I recently had the task of setting up a printer to work with Quark Xpress. They offer no free support. My employer paid the support cost, and I was put on the phone with a man with a thick Indian accent. It was so bad that I had to ask him to repeat himself at least once every time he spoke. I guess my argument is that people hired to interface with other people should be able to communicate well. It was such a pain in the ass to translate his accent that I decided I would avoid purchasing Quark or recomending Quark (ignoring that some alternatives may be better products). I've heard that Dell computers heard similar complaints to the ones I am making, and brought their tech support back.
I guess my question is: Is it worth the savings to piss your customers off, esp. when they are paying top dollar for good tech support on a per-call basis? On another front, Have these companies had good results overcoming the language barriar (that, according to a programmer friend of mine, ends up causing more problems for a project, resulting in more time cleaning up the mess that misunderstanding brings than executing the project)?
As a colleague of mine likes to point out, the plural of anecdote is not data.
PC.
My questions to those CEOs would be: would you say that, 2 or 3 years down the line, outsourcing has improved your bottom line? And are your customers (whether they are internal 'customers' or real ones) as happy with the provided quality as they used to be before you outsourced?
Then I'd go and ask the same questions to middle management and the customers themselves, their 'bottom line' being value for money.
I've had some limited experience with outsourcing. In one case, the team from India did a super job, as good as we could have done in-house. In another case, outsourcing was a dismal failure. So at a glance it would seem possible to do it right, but its certainly no panacea.
Oh, another question: are we talking about outsourcing (having another company, possibly based in the same country, take over certain activities of your own company that aren't part of your core business), or offshoring (having another company or a subsidiary of your own company take over activities, in a low-cost country)?
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
whene there are no jobs left?
Eventually, even the guy who makes the fries at McDonald's will be automated.
Anything that requires actual skills and doesn't require physical presence will be outsourced.
So when the corporations are overflowing with wealth, and normal people (read: not our corporate overlords) have no way of attaining wealth anymore, what will we do?
Maybe the lucky ones will work security for the corporations.
Apparently rates in India are going up with demand, which is entirely logical from a market perspective.
If instead of reducing outsourcing we tried to send more work to India, is it conceivable that we could bring up their salaries to a point where they would no longer compete on price?
Also, can we expect some of those Indian programmers and companies to do more work on fulfilling their own software needs, and stop chasing outsourcing work?
Information: "I want to be anthropomorphized"
They could try to stir up the pro-outsourcing executives by asking how long they think their jobs will last and mention offshoreexecutive, a consulting company that specialises in the outsourcing of executive positions.
I also like the fact that you don't claim to have all the answers in advance. So many reporters and filmakers are too arrogant to ask for assistance. A truly awesome idea to ask everyone you can about this before filming. Nothing pisses me off more than some 60 Minutes piece that (invariably) fails to interview the other side.
Agenda-based "reporters" rarely find the truth. You might find that outsourcing is terrible, but you appear to be objective and thorough, i.e., the opposite of Michael Moore.
My golden question: Ask the labor unions to explain how they can reconcile their push for high wages and benefits which are completely non-competitive with foreign workers, and then have the audacity to complain about outsourcing, rather than take some of the blame (how's that for a leading question?).
I'd also ask the managers of large pension and mutual funds how outsourcing affects their stockholders, and ask them to describe who, exactly, those stockholders are. The answer might surprise most people.
Good luck!
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
"Increasingly, I'm seeing reports of companies offshoring fixed expenses, such as design, engineering, or development, instead of offshoring only variable expenses, such as support services. The latter is disgusting"
There is nothing disgusting about hiring better workers to do a job. If the engineers and developers being "offshored" to do the job better (by doing the same work for less money), why not hire them?
Something I've been curious about...
I've read in stories about call centers / tech support outsourced to other countries that the employees are often coached on how to pass as Americans.
They work on their accents to appear more American, learn about American sports teams and pop culture in order to be able to make smalltalk about it and appear authentically American, etc.
I'm curious to know the effects this has locally and what the opinions of it are. Do any of the employees have problems with this deceptive practice? Do they feel that it's making some kind of statement about the (theoretical) superiority of American culture that they're forced to learn about it and utilize their knowledge of it instead of that of the culture they grew up with? Are there ever, for example, new baseball fans created by an offshore call center worker's exposure to the sport for his/her job, or is this almost always purely business for them? Does this happen in other industries? Do more traditional members of the local societies object to the poisoning of their children with this American culture?
I think there are a lot of interesting questions to be asked there. It's not involved in any way with the causes or primary effects of outsourcing, but from the perspective of social psychology alone the answers should be fascinating.
The main problem in any software development project is to manage the requirements. There is a huge knowledege gap between the customer and the contractor and most failures are due to that the parties involved simply does not understand each other.
Most project methodologies aims at reducing this gap, normally by reducing work cycles and promote both formal and informal communication.
What measures are used to cope with the added barriers in the form of language problems and physical (or even cultural) distance?
If the answer is "none", then my guess is that these drawback will reduce the relative gain to zero, or even less.
My question is thus:
/y comand
Is the reason for the outsourcing because of purely ecomonic reasons (i.e. bigger bottom line profits) or is it the old reason they give (i.e. more qualified work force)?
Now i ask that as i am havin gto take an economics course this semester in college and we did kind of touch on this subject. I added my opinion to the classroom discussion. this is what i said:
I think that the reasons that so many companies are outsourcing the support and other portions of their operations are many fold. #1- that the labor is indeed cheaper and that the companies, being the capitalist greed mongers that they are, want a bigger profit after they take their economic costs out of the revenues that they make. #2- that (Big Qualifier Here.. as i have a couple of computer certifications) the companies who are outsourcing the support operations do not want to have to pay the wages to get real people in the operations who know what the heck they are doing and not desire to dump Joe Snuffy off the call by telling him to reformat his hard drive. #3- that the companies who are outsourcing do not want to make the investment in the truly qualified people (i.e. benefits packages and such) that will retain them for a long haul kind of committment.
#4- even the lowest paid phone monkey will still cost more in the US and that the monkey in question might actually care about the customer. and that the monkey in question has more rights here in the US, with regards to employment, than they would in the other countries.
#5 that the techs here in the US actually are seeking to get more of areturn for their education, where as in another country.. they are just happy to be able to eat.
To sum up the monologue i gave in class.. my opinion of why companies seek to outsource are simply costs (wages, benefits and possibly even severance), more lax employment law in other lands, we demand more return on our education and that we have a tendency to want to fix things rather that using the old Format c:
a wise man once said "two wrongs dont make a right, but three rights do make a left" and that wise man was gallagher
Well, what I mean is that in the states I am taxed on sales, property, income, commerce, and a massive variety of other things - including a fradulent social security system that to say the least isn't sociable or security.
I'm being taxed to death. Not to mention zoneing and building laws here in CA have mannaged to drive the avg cost of a house into the millionaire range (ok the FED helped too). Of course there are things like 401k and medical savings accounts, but those are only there to reverse compensate for the fact that we are getting nailed so badly tax wise that we could never save for retirement without these "hoops" to jump thru.
I don't really mind people offshoring, but my question is - is there a way to take advantage of it to keep myself from getting taxed and bureauocrated to death and break from the system?
Here's my 2 cents. In high school, I studied my ass off to get into a good computer science program. Then, in college, I studied MORE while my friends in easier majors had tons of fun. I put my time in, now I want my fucking job. I didn't go on spring break or take my summers off. I worked landscaping jobs because there were so little internships available, I couldn't get one. So, fuck you to all you business people trying to say American college students are lazy.
He're the best question to ask a CEO who is considering an outsourcing program:
What effect will the outsourcing trend have on your company in 10 years? 20 years? 50 years?
The problem with outsourcing is that it seems to be sacrificing long-term business strategy for short-term financial gains. I've yet to hear many informative responses to the above question beyond "we don't know, we just need to cut costs now".
If IBM outsources its work to foreign countries, its non-jobless employees will no longer be buying $20K-$30K cars from GM, Honda, Ford, etc. And so GM, Honda, Ford, etc, will buy less services, software, and hardware from IBM.
Who's going to be left to buy the products these companies are trying to sell when the jobs which are left pay minimum wage or little more? You don't drop $35K on a new SUV when you're making $10/hr or less. You buy a used Civic for $5K. You don't take a $2K vacation to Florida, booked through some travel agency, flown on a US Airline, stay in a nice hotel. You take a cheap vacation to which you drive your used Civic and spend little on these fancy travel services. You don't buy a bunch of expensive electronics, you buy a used TV from the pawn shop.
Long-term, outsourcing of high-paying jobs to cut short-term costs is going to destroy American businesses. I'd love to hear an answer which convinces me otherwise.
MORTAR COMBAT!
If someone ever wondered WHY companies outsource, look no further: http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/f/a.htm#fal ling-rate-profit
Quite simple actually.
When I see a news report about the issue of outsourcing and the Federal government's concern with it they invariably focus on manufacturing jobs. Why am I always left with the feeling that our government ignores (is not concerned with or aware of) what's going on in IT? Why do the news media not question them specifically about displaced IT workers? Why do we continue to import IT workers when our own citizens can't find jobs in IT?
The best factual source for these numbers is directly from the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the US Department of Labor.
Their March 2004 Report is online, as well as archives of past reports.
Do NOT rely on any "statistics" from politically motivated people or organizations such as Robert Reich, or even any Republicans. Anybody can manipulate and cherry pick numbers to make them fit their political agenda. Use the BLS numbers only!
Unfortunately since almost all documentaries seem to be created for political/social agendas or with biases, I highly doubt that my suggestion will be used. That's why I as a potential film viewer will almost never watch a documentary on current events, regardless of the position or whether I agree with it. If it doesn't have footnotes and references I can check, I don't want to be fooled into thinking something is fact when it is not.
While there is much anecdotal evidence that offshoring saves a company money, mostly I think in cash, what are the long term implications of offshoring? In particular, will overseas wages continue to rise to the point where it is no longer cost effective?
As a follow-up, is low level programming and tech support turning into a commodity?
- What is the exact nature of the competitive pressure compelling CEOs to outsource labor?
- (Everyone else is doing it.)
- So these other companies that "did it first" and thereby decreased their costs, passed this on to the consumer in the form of reduced prices?
- (That's how the market works.)
- Uh, huh. Ok, given that the inflation rate has remained pretty much constant, if not growing slightly, during this period of outsourcing, is it fair to say that the trend of outsourcing is, in fact, not driven by market forces?
- (Well, uh, the market is very complex...)
- If a group of companies collectively decide to engage in behavior to the detriment of their consumers (prices haven't dropped) and employees (who are out of work), and this behavior is not market driven, can you explain it in the context of antitrust law?
No further questions, your honor.who are those slashdot people? they swept over like Mongol-Tartars.
> anti-outsourcing advocacy groups, pro-outsourcing CEOs
Why not find a pro-outsourcing advocacy group and some anti-outsourcing CEOs. That might be interesting (in the fact that one would assume it impossible).
All these stories get into a hoopla when it involves outsourcing IT services to India. They never get excited when things get outsourced to Canada, Australia, Ireland, etc. There should definitely be a comparison in number of jobs outsourced to Canada vs India relative to the number of hyped articles about outsourcing to Canada vs India.
You also want to talk about outsourcing's effect in the IT industry compared to its effect in the movie/TV industry (you do know that a lot of American movies and shows are shot in Canada?).
These are just examples. What do Americans have against Indians, exactly?
One simple question - if all the high-paying American jobs get offshored, who will buy the products made by these US companies? I know that I would not be buying all those nifty consumer goods at any price if I were unemployed.
Ask them this, "Why aren't high level executive jobs outsourced?"
I believe you should ask the pro out sourcing CEO's if, once they have determined the cost of outsourcing, they try to fill those jobs in the US below that rate. There was an article on /. that concerned a Boston area company(I believe) who did that and filled all jobs in the US for cheaper than outsourcing because of the unemployment situation here. Maybe someone with a better memory can give more details on my example.
How do you dirty ragheads and kikes feel sucking up all our money? Aren't you ashamed?
Can you ask them if I can have my job back? :)
"nvesting their funds in businesses thus forcing them to work towards the bottom line and going with the cheapest solution."
There is nothing wrong with this at all. It is efficiency, and it reduces the wasting of money. It should also cut down on a racism, too: go with the cheapest even if someone of the "right" skin color costs more.
There are a number of perspectives anyone can take on all of this, some purely economic, more purely political and all sorts of odd mixtures.
The one I'm most interested in is this: what obligation does the government have to its citizens? Should it do whatever it can to facilitate profits for businesses? Should it do whatever it can to maintain/attain a high standard of living for all its citizens. Most communities form out of self-interest. They gain more by being together than apart, and often hard compromises are necessary where individuals must give up something for the common good that they've agreed to support. My feeling is that citizens, government and business have all lost any sense of this commonality of interest. So the first question I would ask is: who gains by offshoring and is that gain for the common good or for a specialized good. My feeling is that it's really for a specialized good, large corporations, but I may be wrong. But I do think this is the most important question to ask.
Her is my quick list of ideas on the issue.
1. Study FDR and the New Deal. Especially those against it.
2. Show the Accounting connection from the 1970's to now.
3. Study the changes in the UK from Agriculture to Industrialization.
4. Was the US Protectionist until her Corporations became dominant players. That is the US would not permit those Corporations from the UK to setup shop in the USA.
5. Study the Economist News Paper's History. Very pro Free Trade and Outsourcing from the 1800's.
6. Study Wealth Consolidation and concentration in the few.
7. Reduction in Competition of Businesses.
8. What is Japan, Korea, Europe doing?
9. Protectionism vs. Fee Trade.
10. Does the consumer benefit.
11. Was Free Trade with China to allow the US to tap into the Consumers of China?
12. Visa's to the US and benefits of Visa's to Americans to seek jobs abroad. [Americans get work in: China, India, Europe, Canada, Mexico, New Zealand and Australia]
13. What causing this? [fear of Compton from India and China at the corporation level]
14. WTO, World Bank Connections.
Add more to this post if you have ideas or expand on what I am proposing.
By the way here is someone to interview besides George Bush Sr. that is Brian Mulroney, Primeminister of Canada about Free Trade and NAFTA. Also any EU members. Add contrast that is EU formed against the USA's Power. NAFTA against EU's. Now Companies abandoning both.
I would like to know why when employees put 10+ years into a company, and through those employees efforts and creativity the company has prospered, that the company feels no debt to them? And does a company feel like it can despose of them like yesterdays garbage so that the CEO can get a big fat salary?
Thanks for the link to the list
CNN's list looks like almost every company...they should have included who does *not* outsource, so we'd know (when I'm buying stuff where there's a choice, I almost always go for US if all else similar)
... who will we provide the service too? Who's going to have the money to pay for these services we will soon be reemployed to provide?
If you post it, they will read.
"What is Japan, Korea, Europe doing?"
There are two nations called Korea now. One is doing nothing. The other is important in global economic discussions.
Where does outsourcing stop? You can basiclly outsource pretty much every aspect of any company to a comparable cheaper solution overseas. However, where are the lines drawn? What is the criteria? Does cheaper automatically call for outsourcing. Is there a formula to this?
PS: I know this is not one question, but they all closely related.
Useless sig.
Clearly, the company that outsources employment is still hiring human beings and paying them a wage that they are able to subsist on. Otherwise it simply wouldn't work, even to the degree that it arguably does (yes, I know it doesn't work for some companies - face it, for others it does).
So, what exactly is the objection? All kinds of rationalizations are offered, but they all boil down to a belief that some people deserve jobs more than others.
Are the people who insist that they deserve the jobs (instead of some jobless brown-skinned foreigner they don't even know) racists, or nationalists? Why do they consider themselves "better" or "more deserving" than other workers? Is it because they were born in the place the company was formed? Is it because they are the same racial group as the CEO?
I'd like to see the documentary makers explore the overlap between racist extremist viewpoints, fanatic "my-country-wrong-or-right" patriotism, and opposition to outsourcing. I bet it's pretty huge.
I expect to be modded into oblivion for challenging the dominant viewpoint. So be it, I'm looking for a different kind of karma points myself.
Outsourcing makes perfect capitalist sense. Free market+cheaper labor=use it. People who lose their jobs to outsourcing do so because of natural and fair market pressures and should realize that there is nothing sacred about their rights to do their work for x $$. If someone is willing to do the work for less then the work is worth less and they should grow up.
However, even though the value of individual programmers may be falling because of competition in india, the collective value of all US programmers is still incredibly high! Individual programmers simply don't have enough force in the market to change the direction of things by themselves. The only way to save the american programmer utopia is to organize unions while the power to do so still exists. Once india achieves a significant portion of the market, the opportunity will be lost. Even collectively there will not be sufficient bargaining power for us programmers to force us companies to keep the jobs local and enrolling sufficient indians to make a strong union across the two contries is just not going to happen since the economies are so far apart.
So are you a socialist (you still have a chance to save your own ass), a capitalist (suck it up buddy because you are about to take a big pay cut, unless the socialists save you), or a hypocrite (most people whining on slashdot)?
Hello, My brother is high up in the IT department of a fortune 500 company. Every six months, he gets a bonus and a threat that his job may be offshored. He would gladly give up the bonus and even take a cut in salary if he could be offered some stability in keeping his job. Why are U.S. workers not given the opportunity to compete with offshore workers? I know we can't match cost, but we can certainly lower costs and offer other benefits that offshore workers can't. Thanks
Id love to know what the people that are in favor of sending jobs out of the country have to say to the millions of people now out of work in the automotive market.
The backbone of the midwest is being transferred out of the country, and it seems like the people in charge really dont care that its happen, or the ramifications of the aftermath when when the country wont have enough of a manufacturing base to support its self.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Don't just talk to CEOs, talk to the CATO Institute for more pro positions. I'm sure you can find some other groups to balance their position if you need to. Don't play this as a Big evil corporation and their CEOs vs the little guy if you want an honest documentary. Of course if you just want to add to all the hype and get attention instead of informing people by all means play up the evil CEOs vs the little workers, just don't be surprised when you have no creditability.
Will this documentary stick to India-rhetorics? Will they give a breakup of how much is outsourced where? Isreal? Ireland? Mexico? Russia? Australia? How much outsourcing was call center? R&D? Geek-related manufacturing?
where did my sig go? where's my sig at?
Because on a documentary's budget, you're gonna have to go overseas to put this together after shooting your footage.
This question is for the CEOs:
How can you expect your employees to remain loyal to you and to care about protecting the company's IP if they feel that you view them as nothing more than a commodity like pencils or paper clips?
"Africa is not an Indo-European continent, I
don't think they even invented the wheel"
For thousands of years, Africa was more advanced than Europe. Ancient Egypt made extensive use of the wheel.
"knowledge jobs"
So, who has more of these knowledgable people. India graduates about 250,000 engineers a year. They are highly skilled with a high ability to learn. In tern the US has a decining rate of graduating engineers.
When I was in college many of the students with the best grades where chineese, japanese or indian. The US students were out partying and half assing most of the time. Of the guys I went through college with those foreign students knew more, where to find more, and were more motivated. I didn't say they were smarter. I think it's the US is falling behind and these countries are rising to the challenge.
Evolution or ID?
Easy one!
If offshoring is so fantastic for corporations why don't they offshore the executive team and the board?
Shareholders would get a MUCH BETTER return only paying $30K for Harvard/Stanford trained Indian executives/board members than millions per for the current set of executives/boardmembers!
In all the discussions of outsourcing, there is little attention paid to the privacy aspects. That is, the most detailed medical, financial and demographic information being sent/shipped overseas for processing.
Q: Will you approach this largely ignored aspect of the outsourcing debate?
If so, what are the corporate, political and public responses to the fact that this private information is being overseas? (often unencrypted and through the actively monitored filters of foreign governments)
"Id love to know what the people that are in favor of sending jobs out of the country have to say to the millions of people now out of work in the automotive market"
Blame the auto companies for making inferior products. Blame the union thugs for their greed, and blame the auto companies for giving in to wages in the auto industry that went way above the value of the work.
"The backbone of the midwest is being transferred out of the country"
And the UAW is doing everything to encourage this by insisting that low-skilled jobs likely only worth $8 an hour get paid $30 an hour.
- "Of the 2.7 million jobs lost over the past three years, only 300,000 have been from outsourcing, according to Forrester Research Inc."
Its more likely the very thing that mostHow about a look at how and why offshoring fails. There was an article about it just today at MSNBC.
In the US shrinkwrap software industry, I have seen no management support for detailed specifications or documented and repeatable processes. Yet the Indian companies regularly (and loudly) tout their CMM level 5 ratings. The companies that outsource to them also claim that as a benefit.
If it's a benefit, why wasn't it worth doing when the developers were US citizens working in the US?
If 'flexibility' (the opposite of pre-planned repeatable process) is so important, how will you get that flexibility from offshore developers?
"How can an American manufacturer compete against one that can pay their workers pennies a day, and dump their waste wherever they please?"
It's simple. Lets copy the chinese. Laws need to be in place. The other way is to make it more beneficial for the company. I figure laws would be easier.
Evolution or ID?
Can they still be considered an American company? If MIT outsourced its football team (they do need to), would that team still be considered an MIT football team?
Companies like Lucent and AT&T have been surviving on downsizing for years. Announce X jobs cut (or outsourced) and the stock goes up. It's easier for the CEOs than taking care of the company.
When the average wage of the American worker has been depressed to the same level as the lowest costed labor market in the world due to economic parity, who in the US will be able to afford your goods and why would they buy them?
How do you deal with Outsourced Tech Support or customer service and foreign accents?
Personally, I HATE that tech support is outsourced to foreign countries because I can't understand the people on the other end.
Look at it like this:
I'm calling for tech support because I'm frustrated at not being able to get something to work. Now my frustration is compounded by not being able to understand the person that is supposed to help me.
Even further, I was calling my bank just to find the location of the nearest branch, and apparantly they outsourced their cust svc to india, and trying to tell someone that name of a city (WANTAGH) and them not being able to spell, understand me spelling it, etc....was MORE than frustrating.
So this question is: how can you deal with these types of complaints? and even though it may be cheaper, overall isn't it lowering customer satisfaction?
To interview the people who are now doing the jobs. How much are they really paid, what are the conditions of employment, how is their economy? etc etc.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
"When the average wage of the American worker has been depressed to the same level as the lowest costed labor market in the world due to economic parity, who in the US will be able to afford your goods and why would they buy them?"
It will all work out. The prices on the goods will be lowered in order to entice the market.
As far as I'm concerned I will buy the best product I can afford. If your company (hello Detroit) builds utter crap, I won't subsidize your incompetence for any reason!
The dirty little secret of capitalism is, "Every man for himself". I forget who said that. But it's true, and given high quality education, reliable communication, and light government controls to enforce social mores (such as prohibitions against murder and thievery) capitalism works great. I like it.
Without education, communication, and appropriate regulation capitalism is the most absolute form of class warfare. Which is why our shrub is the hero of the war-loving classes!
Another post doomed to be modded to oblivion. I'm on a roll today.
Make them demonstrate the 'comparative advantage' in unrestricted outsourcing.
;)
Make sure to read up on 'opportunity costs' and the distinctions between rational/efficient and individual/social utilities.
Don't let anyone confuse 'future benefit' due to increased demand for US goods in the future. That has nothing to do with 'comparative advantage,' and uses two known false positions:
1)Says Law - Point out that 'Keynes' is so famous because of that one pesky observation that disagreed with accepted 'laws.'[Great Dep.]
2)There is not guarantee that we will have advantage in the future. [When their growth drives demand for 'advanced' goods.]
Also do not allow them to claim that 'Free Trade' is compatible with 'comparative advantage.' Corporate directives prevent a company from considering anything beyond it's own immediate absolute advantage. Policy needs to either change those directives, or bring those advantages closer to national comparative advantage.
A series of direct question mights be:
"What more efficient use of the labor power did you identify for the workers you laid off?"
"What was the US economic advantage?"
"What was the accounting advantage to your firm?"
If you want to enrage/frighten, you could add:
"How do you deny that the end goal of offshoring is increasing the available surplus labor pool in order to increase surplus value and malthusian wage pressure?"
and
"If you decrease the purchasing power of american laborers less than you increase that of others, how do you avoid accelerating the inherent arrival of the 'realization problem'?"
Warning: The last 2 questions will likely get you labelled a Commie
... and ask why it is a priority of the Ehrlich Administration to outsource as much Maryland state government work as possible overseas.
Yup, it's true, and I have the letter from one Boyd K. Rutherford (Secretary of General Services) to prove it.
He will regret ever sending that letter!
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
On a couple of occasions, my experience, bear in mind we are a talking a VERY limited set of the total here. Two projects out of millions.....
The first 3 or 4 months we got thier A-Team, the code was good quaility, and we had make a few revisions based on them not completely understanding our business requirements. After the A-team left, we got code that was so bad I was working 60+ hr weeks to rewrite/fix the stuff from india. We actually hired more American Programmers to fix the indian stuff. This happened on the next project as well (Different Indian Co.). After that our management went to small XP groups that actully sit right next to the users and everyone has been very happy with the results. For some things like reports, we still outsource those, but for anything very complex our we do our own......
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
For US. Government officials, preferably an economists:
Isn't it true that in the ideal global economy, theoretically, all standards of living should equalize across the globe?
What does this mean for India and other far eastern countries which stand to benefit from globalization?
What does this mean for the U.S.?
Since Computer Science and other engineering paths are being shunned by U.S. students (down 23% this year), isn't offshoring creating a need for itself by discouraging U.S. students from enrolling in engineering fields?
What effect will this have on the other fields, now that all will experience increased enrollment?
Will the increase in graduates in other disciplines fuel competition and reduce the salary value of these fields as well?
Please ask 3 economists, and get a consensus.
thx,
AC
Just print more money, keep interest rates low and the value of the US dollar will fall, the cost of imported goods, including outsourced labor will rise and more jobs will flow to the US. This is what we are accusing China of doing, but it is within their right ot do so. Sure inflation will erase some gains, but inflation usually trails economic activity, so there would be some short term benefit.
I am sure there are cheaper alternatives there as well.
I'm in an R&D lab specializing in computer stuff. It's opening an operation in Bangalore.
While the cause and effect are being hotly debated, my question is: "What are the limits of offshoring?"
Is it acceptable to allow external development of national defense software? What about storing and evaluating patient medical information (CT and MRI scans)? What if all networking software, virus detection and operating systems came from overseas. Would/could you trust it?
Foreign governments do not (in fact, should not be expected to) necessarily share US political, societal or economic interests. Too much offshoring can weaken the US software development market measurably. How long would it take to recreate that market in the setting of global conflict? Is the maintainance of a strong software community a matter of national security?
Any sleight-of-hand, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from technology.
That's an excellent point. Since CEO's (et al) make up a good portion of overall pay at some companies (read Tyco for example), then how much could a company save (say by shareholder vote) if they outsourced only the upper echelons of management?
Mod +5 Drunk
Nothing sucks more than a "documentary" where all they do is try and make one side look bad. You need to get the story from BOTH sides. Let them give their side of the story, and then as the parent suggested, present them with rebuttals from the other side that they can then try and rebut. Do not, however, focus on one side or censor a side. If you really want a documentary, you need to try and present the issues and feelings of both sides as impartially as possible.
Now you don't necessairly need to do a documentary, maybe you want to do a propaganda peice instead. Nothing wrong with that. However know what you are doing, and be honest about what it is. It's harder than you think to try and maintain neutrality and keep your bias out of your work. I mean it's easy to take two interviews of roughly equal quality (as in quality of arguments) and edit one to show all the solid answers, and the other to show only weak answers.
If you & your competiton continue to outsource, whos going to be left employed in the USA to purchase your products?
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
"and I might add that, in the US at least, the education is going down. Being one if not most powerful nation, we should not allow this to happen. We have too much to lose by doing so."
We may want to blow this off but it is true. And we have to deal with it if we don't want to fall as #1
Evolution or ID?
"Architect" is not a verb
The main question I always come back to on the subject of outsourcing is: What is the appropriate role of the various governments involved?
If trade is entirely free, then the natural trend is a "race to the bottom", in which companies compete to offer the lowest-cost product or service, often discarding any economically non-viable concepts like workers' rights or fair pay in the process. This maximizes profits for the company purchasing the service, but everyone else (the service provider, the actual workers, and all the companies that lost the race to the bottom) are unfairly exploited at best.
On the other hand, if governments are too closely involved in the economic exchange, applying protectionist policies and adding barriers to free trade, they risk denying companies in both countries the benefits of new jobs, increased profits, and general economic development.
So far, governments don't seem to have found a balance in this scenario. The WTO ought to be helping - this seems to be the very purpose for which it was created - but in practice it is run by the wealthy countries, and has largely failed to protect or aid less developed countries in the process of globalization, often enforcing economic policies that are actually detrimental to emerging economies.
So what's the proper role of government in this issue?
"If you & your competiton continue to outsource, whos going to be left employed in the USA to purchase your products?"
Just about everyone. The unemployment rate (with outsourcing) is lower than it was in the "high unemployment" times in recent decades (before outsourcing). The economy is gaining hundreds of thousands of new American jobs per month, even as outsourcing it continuing.
We keep hearing about all these great jobs that will be created in the US as a result of outsourcing. Yet no one can describe them. We also hear about all this education we workers need for these indescribable new jobs, yet the workers being displaced all have degrees, usualing in CS, Math, Engr. and a sizeable minority even have advanced degrees, yet all this education is not quite enough.
So it boils to 2 questions:
1. What are all these neat new jobs we keep hearing about but have yet to see??
2. Exactly what 'extra' training will we need for them??
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
Ask this? What are you contigency plans if war breaks out between India and Pak or India and China?
First of all, I think a documentary would be much more interesting if it focussed not on the effects of outsourcing, but on its causes. How much of outsourcing is due to greed, and how much is due to need? This kind of analysis would give a much better foundation upon which to analyze what the effects will be (Did outsourcing truly spark a "race to the bottom", or is it a "rising tide lifts all boats" process?)
Companies are still screaming about the lack of qualified talent in the USA. Is that truly lack of talent, or lack of talent willing to work at a ditch-digging wage? This problem is present in more than technology jobs -- but elementary school teaching jobs (where a huge supply of qualified talent is paid a pittance, and still visas are issued), construction jobs, accounting, etc.
I also think the effect of government policy and political campaign contribution system shouldn't be ignored. Only recently has our political campaign contribution system been overrun by corporate money. How has this affected the evaluation of policy questions, such as outsourcing?
Marc Andreessen isn't too happy.
These questions should be screamed aloud while a greedy, slime-ball, outsourcing CEO is flogged to death with an aluminum baseball bat. RAAAHHH!
What will you do if India or China Nationalizes your factories?
Ask about the number of jobs created here by foreign companies! In addition to bashing the Bush adminstration about what it hasn't done for the great sucking sound of jobs going overseas, how about congratulations to the Bush administration for all the jobs that foreign companies that have created in opened-up facilities here, such as Japanese auto companies, German and French mfgr companies. After all, if they're responsible for the former then they must also be for the latter. In my humble opinion: this will be nothing but Bush bashing.
Evil Overlord Rule #86. I will make sure that my doomsday device is up to code and properly grounded.
Yes it is.
However it is an arguement against free-trade and unrestricted outsourcing.
It's not that the nomal costs of labor were cheaper here, but that the total/real costs were lower because of US policy.
Don't forget- pretty much everyone else has a lot more to loose in a trade war with america than america does. One of the benefits of our massive trade imbalance.
And producing products in the market they will be sold is not the same as off-shoring. It actually would tend to benefit your sales.
PS In a really tight, highly educated, labor market comparative advantage tells you to off-shore/outsource 'lower' jobs. The key being sustainably better opportunity to which that labor power can be used.
I've heard MBA students spouting something about how all the "work" will be outsourced and people in the US will just "manage" everything. I fail to see how this is a viable model for a country. The foreigners will learn management too, and then those US managers that don't know anything about day to day operations in Singapore will be next to go. How can anyone claim a nation of upper managers is viable with a straight face?
You might reference Robert X. Cringely and his articles on outsourcing.
Here are a few articles:
The U.S. Military is Busily Outsourcing Its Core IT Services, but Would a Really Disciplined Outfit Like Wal-Mart Do the Same?
How to Turn Around the U.S. Tech Economy in One Week With No New Laws, Regulations, or Tax Breaks Required and
Without Moving to India
When It Comes to Understanding Why Government Doesn't Understand High-Tech and Why Financial Markets Seem to be Working Against Our Own Interests, Well, We Did It to Ourselves
U.S. Leaders Either Don't Understand or Prefer Not to Understand the IT Outsourcing Crisis, So Here's the Cliff Notes Version
I believe there are more...
Here's a question that I have been wondering about:
A lot of American companies have written policies about diversity, which they promote through their recruiting and hiring practices. How do these companies fulfill their policies when they create jobs offshore? Do they implement their policies in a way that addresses the social and racial inequalities of the offshore country, or do they simply ignore their own policies and follow local practices?
One of the reasons why companies outsource is that the cost savings out weights the risk. Soooo all we need is an increase instability, ( or an increase in entropy ) and magic it is no longer rational to out source to other countries. Never mind that potential customers that might be lost in the mix, but hey isn't there only one country that is important anyways?
What has the current US administration done to effect outsourcing, and what viable options could they do in the future to fix it?
If I move to India, will I be able to get work?
I mean, first I had this H1B guy come from India to compete with me for wages on my turf, then my company outsources my job to India and lays us both (me and the H1B guy) off; the H1B guy goes back home to work at my job over there.
So, if I go to his country to compete with him for wages, will I get a shot at the same work I was doing here?
Just wondering. This H1B and outsourcing stuff is a two-way street, right?
"The Internet is made of cats."
I think he should ask why people who would jump at the chance to accuse Trent Lott of racism for saying Strom Thurmond would have made a good president will nevertheless gleefully proclaim that Indian workers are inferior to American workers.
The answers one gets may depend on whether they ask a company that has successfully offshored development and one that has not. It might prove to be interesting to ask those questions of both kinds of companies to see if there is a significant difference in the responses.
I suggest this question because I've been involved in offshoring at several of these levels already, and my experiences have not been good. I suspect there may be a disparity at different levels within a company between what they expect, experience and achieve.
http://www.freetrade.org/pubs/FTBs/FTB-010.html
Will your film examine how guest worker visa programs like H-1b/L-1 have been used to facilitate outsourcing? Will you explore how the combination of outsourcing and changes to immigration policy have combined to affect IT employment in the US?
Will you look at how political donations have been used to affect policy in the areas of outsourcing and immigration to create policy decisions to which the American public was broadly opposed?
I suppose if you want to move to India to manage people, sure.. But Management isnt an option when there isn't anyone around to manage. Not to mention, millions of people wanting to be managers? What? Not everyone can be a chief.
How about -
*How would you feel if your job was outsourced? Would you still be in favor of it?
Did you know that Americans are not allowed to live & work in India (except for a short-term basis through a company)? So if someone's job moved there, and the person was willing to relocate with it, that is not allowed. India has a national policy of not letting Americans work there. Hmmm... That doesn't sound too fair, now does it? If they don't welcome us, why should we welcome them?
Is there a winning scenario where local workers can be given time & training to develop new marketable skills, that would "slow the flow"? Many of the solutions currently advocated are pretty strong, and might end up hurting everybody in the long run. But a totally unchecked exodus of jobs is bad for Americans too...
Sure they wang!
Can wang.
Supporters of offshoring like to say that "everyone benefits" from the increase in economic efficienty. But the economic theory of trade doesn't say that, it says that overall the world benefits. There are important caveats:
1. The benefit does not have to be shared between the two (or more) countries involved, depending on circumstances.
So, who *is* benefiting from offshoring to India and China?
2. Within a country, the 'plentiful' factors of production usually benefit, but the 'scarce' ones see their share of the pie shrink. If the pie grows enough, the 'scarce' factors see a gain, but it is certainly not a given. [Scarce and plentiful are relative terms. A country can have a high proportion of educated workers, like the U.S., and still have a shortage compared to say, India or China.]
In the U.S., who is going to benefit (what factors are 'plentiful')? Who is going to -- relatively -- lose out? How badly are the 'losers' going to suffer? How large is this group going to be? Should we do anything to help them out?
Is the current situation different from what happened with manufacturing jobs going to Mexico under NAFTA? How, aside from it being white-collar work rather than manual labor?
Is the current situation -- free trade with India and China -- any different from the migration of jobs to 'low-cost' Ireland a few years ago? How?
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DaimlerChrysler Dealer Apprenticeship Program
The Automotive Technology degree program prepares graduates for employment as automotive technicians and for ASE qualifying examinations for the ultimate certification as a Class A mechanic. Enrollees are employed part-time at a participating DaimlerChrysler dealership, obtaining valuable hands-on experience.
Graduates diagnose and repair the full range of mechanical and electrical malfunctions in late model automobiles or trucks. They remain current in the field through available ongoing dealer-based training and manufacturer-issued manuals. The automotive technology program has achieved "Master Technician" certification by the National Automotive Technician Education Foundation (NATEF).
Mercer developed the program with the assistance of the DaimlerChrysler Motors Corporation and area Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge/Jeep dealers, and maintains a close working relationship with these organizations. The vehicles, equipment and manuals used in instruction are DaimlerChrysler Corporation products.
Admission requires a high school diploma or equivalent and a strong interest in a career in automotive technology. Admission is competitive and determined by basic academic skill levels, program-specific testing, and a personal interview. Academic foundations requirements should be completed before starting automotive classes.
The program may be completed in two years, beginning in the fall semester and requiring attendance in the summer session each year. Instruction is organized into a two-day/three-day format. Classes are scheduled two days each week, and three days are used for the apprenticeship experience. The automotive classes meet at the Assunpink Center of the Mercer County Technical Schools, across from MCCC's West Windsor campus on Old Trenton Road.
Related Programs of Study
Note: Electives should be selected in consultation with an academic advisor in order to assure maximum transfer of credits.
http://www.mccc.edu/programs_degree_autotechnol
seems like the answer to me... but how much do they pay? I heard you have to buy your own tools which eats up most of your paycheck for life.
"When everyone makes the same amount of money, and everything costs the same, what is the incentive to do anything?"
Have you been playing Sim City too much? The world is not like that. There are cultural differences and geographic differences, and other factors like weather and distribution of raw goods and location relative to ports. Nothing can be equal like you are guessing.
" There has to be some economic in-equality in wages and prices or everything will grind to a halt."
Total equality of all value across the board has never happened, even on a smaller scale. Wages and prices and other matters vary across even such as small geographic area as New York State or New Hampshire.
Agriculture and various manufacturing technologies are subsidized or tarrif protected to keep them in the United States, while technology work is (almost eagerly) sent to foreign countries.
Why is technology work deemed less important for America's future?
They could try this: treat the unemployed, outsourced worker for what he is: the consumer.
worker == consumer
CEO == consumer
foriegner != local consumer
I work on cars as a hobby. You might ask what that has to do with outsourcing...
I buy tools. Common wisdom holds that chineses tools are always "cheaper" and I niavely went with that. However, tools are the life blood of my hobby, so I decided to buy a "good" set of tools from Sears (craftsman). The quality is day and night. The craftsman are 1000x better than the "harbour fright" variety. The tolerances are tighter and the materials are better too.
As it turned out, the craftsman tools arn't really any more expensive to purchase... In a real $$$ since. The price tag on most items are within 10 to 20% (and sometime lower). This doesn't even take into account value (what you get for your money).
So the question I would ask is: Is it really cheaper or is that just a widely held misconception? If it is cheaper, how much and does is justify the reduction in quality?
In the case of hand tools, both answers are generally no. I suspect the same to be true of most software outsourcing with the exception of a few special cases.
Spell check? Why bother. That is what grammer/spelling Nazi freaks who waiste band width posting "spell right" are for.
As Americans, we should think long and hard about where we are going, because historically, technology has driven changes in society, and not the other way around. Outsourcing and offshoring are just one step in a process that may eventually end in the elimination of most human workers in favor of robotics. That day is closer than we think. It could be a very good thing for mankind or it could be a nightmare, depending on how we approach it. The Industrial Revolution was the time of a big die-off in Europe (due to war, but the real reason was changing economics) It's quite possible that unless we adjust in a civilized way to the decreased need for human workers, our society will implode under its own weight. This is what happens, typically, in societies in crisis. We don't have to accept this outcome, it's our choice on how we deal with it. But if we don't make that choice, others will make it for us. If you examine the various options, you'll see that our current path almost certainly leads us to the end of democracy as we know it (because as incomes fall and bankrupcies rise, those in power will not let 'voters' take it away from them unless those voters have the economic clout to do so.) unless we examine our choices carefully. As a (human) race, and not just as individual nations. Otherwise, get ready for a very nasty, ugly future in which many will probably die preventable deaths.
I've looked at the exchange rate for the Chinese Yuan over the last 6 years and found it to be FLAT (not a single dollar/dime difference) with exception of a handfull of spikes, only to return to the Flatline exchange rate again. There are several sides to this one question:
1) If the exchange rate is FLAT, would you consider offshoring?
2) If the exchange rate was volatile such that your contract price were unreliable by 10%, would you still offshore? - or was this even discussed?
3) Does political instability have an affect on the exchange rate, and does this factor in your decision?
More on the larger topic outsourcing. I wonder what percentage of workers reading slashdot are employed by foreign companies? Would those complaining about outsourcing be willing to give up their jobs to back up their principles?
Republican, Democrat, Independent or alien ... you've got to check out this movie. It's posted in Windows Media, Quicktime and RealVideo. It's one heck of a funny editing job.
instead of being lazy and messaging slashdot
for an "outsourced American IT jobs" category so I can fucking filter it out!
Anyway, boohoohoo to you. Welcome to Capitalism 101... proper companies will cut costs and sell more. That's the way it works, IT industry or not.
BTW... go Indians! Do unto the White Men as they did to your ancestors on the Indian's rightful land!
You do Sitting Bull proud.
Welley Corporation - SLM Scammers
Ask the customers of the companies that Outsource if they were satisified with the service. Ask the companies themselves how they would have faired had they not outsourced. Ask the companies if they recieved more or less savings than expected savings than they projected. Ask the people laid off if they were helped in any way by the company that let them go. And if they recieved much warning.
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
They should comment on the so called "cost of living advantage:"
Q1: If the severe oppression underlying working conditions for the vast majority of Indians was removed, would outsourcing of "high-end" jobs to India cease to be profitable?
Q2: How does the current practice of outsourcing of "high-end" jobs to India help Indians in the ongoing struggle to remove the severe oppression there?
Examples of oppression and their supporting infrastructure:
1) Forced and *uncompensated* displacement of people from rural areas into the cities because of emminent domain siezure by authorities. (Official Indian government figures put the number of people affected by this at around 40Million since 1947. Activists estimate the number is much much higher.)
2) Ubiquitious child labor in the houshold cleaning, and other related service sectors. No real enforcement against it.
3) Child slavery and bonded labor (think "indentured servitude" from your history classes, but much worse.) affecting millions in rural areas. Sporadic enforcement against it.
4) Open physical and verbal brutality of authorities (police, guards, and even employers) towards the poor to keep them obedient and compliant. Personal Note: once on a trip to India, I saw a policeman beat a little beggar kid about 3 hours after my plane touched down. I see examples of stuff like this on every trip to India. I have even heard many well-to-do folks talk openly about how "this is all those kind of people can understand."
5) Right to education for everyone exists on paper only. Many areas have no functioning public school or that school has been "captured" by a subsection of the community with others excluded by overt and implicit discrimination.
6) No democracy within political parties. The voter has no say as to whom will run for a seat on behalf of any given party. (e.g. No caucuses or primaries of any kind.) Rules *preventing* elected members of parliament from voting their conscience on issues affecting their locality.
7) No freedom of information act or sunshine laws. (Even Ashcroft has to obey at least some FOI requests.) Example of a resulting state secret: How much money was spent on the goverment support of parochial (Christian and Muslim) schools as compared to the money spent on public schools open to all?
8) No right to a speedy trial by a jury of peers. Say what you will about the OJ case, etc., participation in jury trials is a powerful way in which the public gets some control over their own destiny by being a part of the justice system. It is a lot harder to corrupt 12 randomly chosen jurors with other jobs than it is to get at one judge who you can count on for repeat business.
Presently the policy of outsourcing works to boost the bottom line by quickly reducing labor costs on contracts that were probably bid assuming inhouse develolpment.
In many industries today, labor costs form a significant if not the largest part of the companies costs. If you make hardware, the cost of your material is pretty well established, if you make software then almost all of your costs are labor. To increase profitability labor costs must be reduced, or sales must be increased. Logically I want to do both. I could reduce labor costs by eliminating some positions, but that effects schedule and thus decreases sales. If I instead replace my high cost local labor with lower cost labor elsewhere, I can make schedule. If I further reduce my technical staff locally and increase my sales staff, I may both reduce cost and increase sales.
There is cost associated with overseeing the outsourced work that must be considered, but if if the task is big enough, that can be considered equal to the oversight a local team would get from management. Overseeing contractors is not like managing employees, and overseeing off-shore contractors is different from that. To effectively oversee this work one must have the technical experience to know what is being asked of the contractor and how to gauge the quality of work and the schedule. This is typically being done by senior engineers today. Where will the next group of senior engineers come from to oversee the contracts if we outsource/off-shore all of our work today?
Either we need to limit the out-sourcing, keeping some work in-house if for nothing more than to grow these senior staff, or we must plan on importing the senior engineers from the countries where they will be grown, those very same countries where the outsourcing was done.
Now ask yourself, does it make sense to import this senior engineer, putting them in a strange country, where you need to pay them significantly more and putting them 9-12 hours different (timezones) than the work they are overseeing. Logically we would hire them to oversee the contracts, and station them right where they are.
At this point the entire technical staff is securely positioned off-shore, saving me millions in labor. With no technical staff (or very little) locally, It makes sense to reduce management locally and increase the overseas management to match the companies demographics.
You can see the natural progression here, eventually the entire company except for the board, CEO, CFO will be overseas. In a global economy I can easily run a sales force from anywhere, and since I eliminated all of the middle income jobs, there has been nobody in the US able to buy my product for some time. Naturally I could reduce the price of my product to account for this, but that reduces my profit. A certain amount of this would have occurred during the life (death) cycle.
This hypothesis of course ignores the feedback effect from the process. If I consider how the labor force would react to the change locally, at some point the local labor would be willing to work for lower wages and less benefits since all I need to do is compete against Walmart, and instead of paying my engineer $100/hour, I can pay $10/hr.
At this point my local labor cost will equal that of the overseas and I may start shifting work back here again.
This settling effect would result ultimately (world economy right) in labor costs in all developed countries being approximately equal. Those on top have increased their position significantly and those on the bottom have lowered theirs, effectively eliminating the middle.
I go out and climb into a Ford.
My wife has a GMC.
All built with parts built hither and yon, but one does what one can.
( A counter example to the parent.... Not *everyone* gets in a toyota. )
emt 377 emt 4
I've always thought of the US as one of the great innovators; we generate ideas rather then products. One question I would ask is why shouldn't programming follow the same path as textiles and electronics?
I give men fish.
The following question is directed to all the various parties, such as economists, CEOs, CIO/CTOs, workers both USA and foreign, President G. W. Bush, and whoever else you can reach.
Please name, from your point of view, who are the top five short term beneficiaries of outsourcing practice?
Please, in your answer do not speak of long term, because I think we have all heard the rosy long term outlook already (and I think it is safe to say that few of us are buying it). Yes, I am biased, but so are we all.
Does trickle-down theory become tricle-over theory? The argument for reducing taxes on the well-to-do was that all would benefit from their tax break because the well-to-do would invest in factories, new ventures, etc., leading to new jobs. If the new jobs they create now are overseas, is this argument for this (disputed by some) benefit further eroded?
Corollary: If the local pro baseball team is made up of players from other towns and countries, is it still local?
If you post it, they will read.
Do you think the Indian lifestyle will improve such that Indian programmers demand more money, and thus cost about the same amount as American programmers?
Michael Moore? Is that you?
;-)
http://www.club977.com/ - The 80's Channel!
Your source for commercial free 80's music!
"and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in ..... AMERICA ....."
Dude forgot to pick up his newspaper and look at the pages and pages of "help wanted" ads. Typical lazy American: he'd rather veg out and watch TV than actually lift a finger to get a job.
Please! I was an engineer for over 20 years in nuclear, and got laid off after the last nuclear plant was licensed. I went back to school and got a degree for programming. Got a good programming job and have seen many of my co-workers laid off. I am just waiting on the next big improvement in productivity or outsourcing to send me back to learn something else. What will the next big thing be? Should I go to a community college this time and take another pay cut?
Assume that offshore outsourcing is good overall because of the benefits often mentioned (lower costs for consumers and businesses, etc). Is that not also an argument for eliminating the protections and subsidies that many corporations enjoy that serve to drive up costs to consumers and businesses? I would be interested to hear from the CEO's in particular, the answer to that question.
Some of the commentary indicates that american students are lazy etc.... This to a degree is true. However, this year and the previous year I didn't have the opportunity to go on spring break because of school related projects and work related software I am developing. Further more, at least 80% of the foreign students in our department are HORRIBLY lazy. The code they produce is absolutely horrible. As an example I just finished my Distributed OS project using a test framework that didn't introduce race condtions because it just IS a race condition. This is what I have observed having had many foreign students as follow students. There is also a known culture of collaboration among foreign students. So much so that I think 8 or 10 students were nailed for excessive collaboration (ie copying of code) on one of my recent compiler projects. The idea here is that foreign students are not always above and beyond american students, and in some cases they are weaker in integrity and talent. This is neither the rule, nor the exception. It just is in some cases.
.NET database applications. The remainder of the software will be outsourced. I have given up. People in this industry are just under trained, lack sufficient talent, and in some cases speak unintelligible english. This means that if you take an engineering job you will working right next to the kid you couldn't handle answering questions for in school, but now you have to do it for a living.
I think people need to realize that there are talented american engineers (ie not programmers) in our universities around the country. I say, take the top N american born engineers and place them next to the top N foreign engineers at american unversities and I guarantee the americans will be more competent. I am tired of answering the same questions over and over again as posed by the foreign students in my Programming Language Principles class. These kids just hack and hack for hours on end until they get something that works. They aren't any more talented, they just beat every problem into submission and get something that kinda sorta works. What does this mean for the state of software? It means it is going to be just as horrible as it has always been, and maybe worse. The most talented american students are leaving the industry, like me. The remaining american engineers will be left working on military software and lifeless
I don't agree with all the people who are totally outraged by outsourcing. The reality is you need to ensure that you are valuable. If you are not valuable you will not be employed. We can't have all the fruits of a successful market economy and turn around and bitch when people aren't being paid for something which can easily be shipped elsewhere for significantly cheaper. The bottom line is make yourself marketable. That is your obligation, not the government's.
I think it would be fascinating to see an honest, relatively unbiased study of the quality of work in a domestic vs. offshore development team.
Look at the differences in process, communication with the client, code quality, documentation and specification, ability to hit deadlines, etc...
Contrast that information with the difficulty of the project at hand.
I suspect that a good outsourcing company would have far better process and documentation than the domestic team, but that the US developers would manage clients better, and would be able to react more quickly to changes or ambiguity.
My experience with US developers is that they are dedicated hard-working people, but are often underskilled and undereducated (leftovers from the dot-com days), and are often very poorly managed. My experience with outsourcers is that they are very smart and have excellent process, but are terribly rigid and lack some common sense.
I'd love to see a pointer to this project once finished.
1. CEO's tend to make the argument that they need to outsource in order to compete with their competitors who are outsourcing. (sounds an awful lot like an argument between kids on the playground - "he's doing it too!" - where nobody wants to take responsibility). Given that CEO salaries run into the $millions (typically 20 to 40X the pay of their average employees) why don't CEOs consider cutting their own salaries in an effort to remain competitive?
2. Many unemployed and about-to-be-unemployed US engineers would be happy to work for less money (within reason)in order to keep their jobs, however when this is suggested to companies the companies usually choose to go with outsourcing. If an engineer is willing to take a 30 - 40% pay cut to save his/her job, why isn't this offer taken seriously by most companies?
3. (related to 2) It's quite clear that if we want to continue working in the engineering fields in America that we'll either have to become much more productive (2 - 3X) or we'll have to accept much lower wages (or a combination of the two). By some measurements we're already much more productive than our overseas counterparts by virtue of the fact that we have more experience with real projects, so it all comes down to money. What can American engineers do to lower their cost of living in order to try to compete with 3rd world salaries?
4. Most offshoring advocates say that we need to just be patient as we await the 'Next big thing (TM)' that will be invented in America (they have a lot of faith). Any idea what the 'Next bit thing' will be and what do we do in the meantime?
5. (related to 4) In the software arena, most of the offshoring advocates say that US developers need to 'move up the foodchain' into project management. Given that you never need anywhere near as many managers as you do managees, what how will most US developers 'move up the food chain'? (perhaps they'll become hunters)
6. (related to 5) What if you'd much rather develop code than manage projects?
7. For outsourcing advocates: Why not make the argument that we should outsource every possible US job to cheaper, lower labor-cost countries and then bring in 'guest-workers' to fill the positions that can't practically be outsourced? It seems that the outsourcing advocates would find this a favorable plan since there would be so much potential money savings. If money savings is the primary economic motivator then this seems like a logical plan, however, what do we do with the millions of US workers that would be put out of work in this scenario?
Commentary: The outsourcing advocates take a very narrow view of economics. To them cost-cutting is the primary motivation for doing anything - "if it'll save a buck, then do it" is their motto. However, it isn't clear that the money savings from outsourcing white collar jobs are actually going to be able to counter-ballance the economic devestation brought on by widespread offshoring. So what if US corporations suddenly become wildly profitable (for a quarter or two) while millions of workers are put out of work. Eventually those millions of unemployed workers won't have the money to buy the products of the wildly profitable corporations and profits will go down. I'd rather see corporations break even while providing good jobs to millions, than see them be wildly profitable but providing no jobs to US workers. Oh, and if millions are unemployed, who is going to pay the taxes to support the schools that we supposedly need to train workers for the 'jobs of the future'?
1) I'd just like to point out that outsourcing does not necessarily equal offshoring. Offshoring is one type of outsourcing. I'm all for the latter (as I work for an IT consulting company) but not convinced on the former. A lot of people seem to use these terms interchangeably.
2) It seems inconsistent to me that American IT companies should be able to move most of their jobs overseas while still enjoying the benefits of being U.S. companies (legal and IP protection, infrastructure, etc.). To me this amounts to subsidy of foreign nations and U.S. stockholders by the U.S. government.
Read my keyboard review.
What is the ratio of the increase in your 'managements' net worth to what you 'saved' by outsourcing?
Ads are broken.
Project Outsourced has been outsorced to India. Taking over for the current filmmakers is Muhammed(currently earning a healthy $2 per hour, he will soon become one of the richist people in his community).
Vote for new mod!!! Score:-2,Imbecile
when there is no paper jam???
Whenever the subject comes up, I always hear people saying that the government should do "something" to stop the offshoring trend. My question: what possible remedies could the government implement that would actually encourage companies to not outsource while not simply driving them out of the country altogether?
Hollywood has been outsourcing for years. Examples include The Lord of the Rings triology (almost entirely outsourced to New Zealand), and dozens of films where the city of Vancouver, British Columbia is passed off as various cities in the United States, all to avoid labor costs and union scale issues. For whatever reason, the entertainment industry seems immune from the big media "outsourcing" scrutiny placed on so many other industries. C-Diddy
"Me fail English? That's unpossible." - Ralph
Outsourcing in one form or another is nothing new. I want to know why it is attracting so much attention now. It seems to me to be nothing more than media hype. Is there any real solid evidence to show that there is something significantly different happening now other than increased awareness?
You are a CEO.
I would *love* to be discriminated against as most CEO's are.
emt 377 emt 4
Er, no, that's no the way it works.
Yes, moving a car factory to El Salvador will cost some US jobs in the short term. But no, there will be a price drop (or a price/performance improvement) in cars available in the USA. There is the idea floating around that outsourcing means that companies just keep the profits, and that money just vanishes from the economies somehow. However, in a competitive market like cars, some company is always willing to trade lower profits for increased market share. This can take the form of selling the same car for less, or more car for the same price. But this puts pressure on everyone else to lower prices.
For example, compare how much car you can get for 1/4th of the median family income today compared to a few decades ago. A 2004 Civic is a vastly better car than anything one could buy in 1972.
And look at how much better US made cars got in the decade after the Japanese import boom started. While it might have been painful for the workers in Detroit, for the vastly greater number of US car drivers, imports and outsourcing have been a HUGE gain.
The thing about free trade is that the pain is concentrated, but the benefits are diffuse. But the aggregate benefits always (and yes, I mean ALWAYS - I don't know of a single counterexample in the last few thousand years) outweigh the aggregate losses.
The wage differential between the USA and India is a reflection of our greater wealth and productivity, not a threat to our wealth and productivity.
My video compression blog
If jobs don't move, how will labor-intensive American companies compete with companies in countries employing inexpensive labor (either "offshored" from Europe or Asia, or operating entirely within low-wage countries)?
The decision isn't whether or not inexpensive labor will be employed, but who will best employ it. What's the end game when companies in other countries have lower cost structures?
Are these guys going to be any better off, or are all the profits being reaped stopping before they get to the developers? I'd at least feel better if some poor bastard who was living in a shithole over there got to upgrade to a nicer place and an SUV because my job went over there.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
...you can always outsource your Constitutional rights to New Jersey.
Honda, and Toyota and a host of others are here only because the Reagan administration made them build Factories in the US simply to have access to this market.
A very low percentage of workers from Honda or Toyota are from the US, and for those companies the salaries are simply the "cost of doing business" in the US.
Who told you US employees are cheaper?
I see MDA (Model Driven Architecture) tools eliminating the need for outsourcing as development work is shifted towards onsite business analysts, leaving only testing and integration tasks. How do outsourcing resources view this shift affecting them? Will this push everything towards call centers?
Does the offshoring result in lower prices for software and services? If the cost-saving was real and significant, prices should drop...
Dell outsources its tech help and sales lines to India. They are now selling laptops that are very inexpensive.
I can see that jobs are being displaced for outsourcing, but the economic benefit to me personally is still positive. I didn't put all my eggs in one basket - I can do computer work, electrical engineering, mix the two up and do embedded processors and microcontrollers. The people who are upset are those who planned on being employed in one industry for their entire lives and didn't take into account that this industry changes every year - perhaps that's one of the reasons they joined anyway.
So my question is: who is doing the complaining, and is the negative economic impact across the board greater than the positive economic impact of cheaper products available to the average American - most of who are not otherwise affected by this outsourcing?
-Adam
I'd ask political economists whether the improved overall market efficiencies associated with free and unrestrained trade will automatically
Whether there are indications of what degree of wealth segregation might be associated with violent upheaval in regimes (China) that do not allow for easy change.
Whether democracies or republics can be counted on to provide peaceful transitions when such imbalances become too extreme.
Whether democracies can be counted upon to elect efficient economic models, or whether democracies will tend to choose inefficient economic models that are "popular".
[Empirical evidence of failed regimes would illuminating.]
"Provided by the management for your protection."
http://www.rakemag.com/features/detail.asp?catID=6 1&itemID=15314
I think we have the same resources Norway has to support such a state, but we squander them in Enron-eque ways.
It's time for the state to step in.
Well, unskilled labor manufacturing is leaving in droves, and has been for decades. This is probably a good thing in the long term - you want pollution producing industries here?
The way American companies compete against foreign companies is the same way we have for centuries - innovation and productivity. Even though Ford could build a car plant in Mongolia and pay 1% of UAW wages, they'd lose their shirt. Shipping costs to consumers and from suppliers, lack of a trained labor force, etcetera would cost them much more than they'd save.
Now, making plastic toys? Yeah, that's in China now, for the reasons you cite. But how is that a bad thing? Have you SEEN the toys you can buy for $20 now? Unbelievable! What do you think it'd cost to build, say, a Hoberman Sphere with US labor? How many fewer would get sold at that price. Not a lot of US jobs saved, but Hoberman is a lot poorer. And he lives in the USA.
As for environmental protections, we certainly need better global environmental controls. But trade isn't the problem or the solution there. Even if we had complete trade barriers, greenhouse gasses don't know borders.
My video compression blog
I've got a great idea for outsourcing video editing work to the third world. It can be done using a reasonable amount of bandwidth. After that, and once the Indian programmers help us to digitize all our business documents, accounting and legal work would be next.
Hell, other than manual labor, which is already done overwhelmingly by immigrants, we can outsource *all* our jobs to the rest of the world.
Of course, those of us left here in the US will have to be drafted into the military to maintain US "business interests" abroad, but that wouldn't be such a stretch. Have them ask if they'd rather work for a living or shoot people.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
US government in terms of research credits\grants,
results of research done by gov't agencies, loan
guarantees, tax breaks, bail-outs and other subsidies.
The following is a question best asked of economists and other researchers who are qualified to answer it with facts.
In an earlier post someone said that "penny saved is a penny earned". Fair enough. Then someone else in another post said, paraphrasing, "off we go to Wal-Mart to buy all those goods produced by offshore labor..."
It is obvious that some money that is saved due to outsourcing is going to be spent in USA, buying goods made outside of USA.
How much of each saved dollar really goes back to the USA economy and how much of that dollar only makes a short-term appearance in the USA only to quickly leave the USA borders?
Is it possible that if the outsourcing trends continue, we will create a situation where there is an appearance of lively trade and consumer activity within the USA borders where almost every empowered participant is not a USA citizen?
If possible, in effect this would mean that the land of the USA is leased out to function as the bazaar for other countries.
If it is not possible, then what makes it impossible? If possible, what can we, as regular people, do in order to avert this?
Is USA going to become a country of real estate brokers, lawyers, plumbers, fast food and other service industry workers? Wait, because people are already going to Mexico and Canada for medical treatment, so I am not going to include doctors on that list.
Some years ago I've read stories about how former business owners and other prominent Japanese people have been entering into a newly booming house cleaning business. That story was just a curiousity for me when I first heard it, but it is beginning to click for me.
MILLIONS? Where did you get that number? Millions of IT workers no longer in the industry, due to jobs that got shipped overseas.
I'd say most IT jobs lost are due to the dot-com boom crash. There are far less than a million IT professionals in India doing outsourced work.
It seems like everyone doesn't have their ideal job in IT says that their job went to India. That'd require probably 10x more IT workers in India than there are.
My video compression blog
How can you only think in short run? A few profits in the short run are worth destorying the country in the long run? What is going to happen when there are no jobs in the U.S.? Sure, it won't be your life time, but it *WILL* effect your children and grandchildren. Look to the future. If we keep going the way we are going, america will be a third world country, and yet no one cares about anything other then the now. It is the absolute height of selfishness.
Ask outsourcing customers to identify why they decided to oursource work:
Lower cost
Better Quality
Better Schedule
And, did any of those things actually happen when the project was done?
and how liable are US companies for data security in foreign countries.
Definitely ask many, many questions designed to determine whether outsourcing is truly successful. All the situations of which I have personal experience are not.
I've seen managers use outsourcing as a way of distancing themselves from issues. It is utterly traditional to treat their people in the technical support department as inferior. Sending technical support to India or China is just a continuation of this tradition. I've never seen a technical support department get enough support from top management. A department 10 time zones away in a completely different culture certainly doesn't. The company then doesn't get messy feedback about how and why its products are not working; using outsourcing the managers further insulate themselves from hearing about negative issues.
Why do U.S. companies outsource technical support when it isn't successful? Because it looks like a success in the first three years, and after that the top manager who made the decision will have moved to a different company. The fact that his former company eventually suffered a downturn or went out of business will not be connected to the former manager's decision.
Also, ask a lot of questions to determine what will happen over the next ten or twenty years. To me, it's obvious. Companies in the U.S. outsource their software. Eventually all their software will be available to Indian companies. The Indian companies will then compete directly against the U.S. companies, and the U.S. companies will have put them into a position that they can compete effectively.
Investigate whether contracts between U.S. and Indian or Chinese companies have any effective meaning. Sure, the contracts say that Indian companies can't sell software owned by U.S. companies to Indian entrepreneurs. Sure, you can go to court in India. Certainly, the Indian courts will give you a good pretense of doing something. But, I think, if you believe you can prevent Indian companies from using your software to compete against you, you don't know India. They think, "We're poor. We're justified in taking from U.S. companies because the U.S. is rich." It's extremely easy to change software a little so that it seems to be separate intellectual property. It's extremely easy for an Indian company to discover problems that indicate that software made for a U.S. company needs to be re-designed and re-written, and to do that re-writing for themselves, while giving the U.S. company the original design.
Of course, the Indian programmers don't have printers or diskette drives or CD writers attached to their computers. But Sanjit is one of the system administrators. He makes daily backups. He can give a backup tape to his uncle. Actually, Sanjit is searched when he leaves the company. So, he puts the backup tape in the trash, to be picked up by his cousin, the cleaning lady.
Ask the outsourcing companies many questions designed to determine if they understand the Indian or Chinese cultures. Do they have the slightest understanding of those cultures, and how that affects their business?
I believe in free trade, and I believe that American innovation will allow us to create new jobs. That being said I understand Americans' anger at outsourcing and their anxiety. I would suggest these 3 questions from an article by Lou Dobbs, a CNN anchor and managing editor, found in this CNN.com article.
"One: How many more jobs must we lose before they become concerned about our middle class and our strength as a consumer market? Two: When will the U.S. have to quit borrowing foreign capital to buy foreign goods that support European and Asian economies while driving us deeper into debt? Three: What jobs will our currently 15 million unemployed workers fill, where and when?"
Really, they should ask themselves that. Are they just riding the latest political outrage wave or have they done an honest analysis of "outsourcing/offshoring" from which to launch their documentary?
The fact is the trend that we're decrying right now is both nothing new, and isn't going to go away. Businesses will always go to the cheapest place to manufacture their goods, be that changing states for better tax breaks or building overseas for cheaper labor.
So, a good question would be: What would the effect be to the US economy if all current "out-sourcing" projects were halted?
What has the effect been on the US economy from historical "out-sourcing"?
A really, honest, in-depth analysis could make a nice documentary, however a Michael Moore-ish hatchet job won't contribute to the dialog one bit.
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
lying about their names to Americans who call in? Also, how do they justify taking courses to learn to speak "American" and act like Americans when they're not?
/dev/null, please) who had their real, given name, and a "fake name" like "Fred Jones" that was given to any American who called in.
There was a report on outsourcing on "60 minutes" that showed several Indians (an example, flames to
If there's "nothing wrong" with outsourcing, then why do these people feel a need to lie about who they are?
-- I am. Therefore, I think!
One thing I've always wanted to know is what percentage of products sold in most retail outlets like Wal-Mart, K-Mart, GAP, Old Navy and other stores are actually manufactured in the USA?
The other day I was in a Wal-Mart and I saw a figurine of an American Eagle with a US flag in its talons. On the bottom it said, "Made in China".
I estimate that at least 90% of most products sold in large retail chains comes from outside the country. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of which sectors do the most outsourcing and to what degree.
Merely looking at outsourcing won't provide the whole picture - they need to make sure they look at insourcing as well as outsourcing. And when they do, they will find that many more jobs are created by insourcing than are "lost" by outsourcing.
I'd like to see some honest discussion of the deeper problem, which is that corporations are artificial constructs that operate outside the control of individual nations or investors/board members, and do not have as their goal the betterment of society or the individual. Rather they exist specifically to concentrate as much wealth as possible in the hands of as few people as possible. It's therefore not surprising that these creations move labor to where the cost is lower.
Also, it's inarguable, if not well-known, that neoclassical economics is fatally flawed and does not apply to the current world economy. So most of the pundits and economists arguing about how great NAFTA etc. are for everyone have no idea what they are talking about, despite their training. Neoclassical economics is based on many false assumptions, and "proofs" of the benefits of unbridled international capitalism are therefore wrong. Letting corporations do whatever they want is just as bad as letting the pre-breakup Soviet government do whatever it wanted.
For that matter, I'm curious: Why are people so deeply distrustful of "big government", but willing to accept an unlimited amount of abuse from private industry? It's just the same problem with a different name.
Cheers,
freecell_wizard
Question 1: Retrain in what? Will the new jobs created by trading our jobs with India be created here?
During the 1980s, blue-collar manufacturing workers whose jobs were offshored were told to retrain in some other area, particularly knowledge jobs. Some did, most others moved into other blue-collar jobs such as construction, automobile repair, and other such jobs which aren't so easily offshorable.
Today, the message from economists and CEOs is the same: retrain in some other field. We know that jobs in programming, software-engineering, and most other fields of engineering (electrical, mechanical, chemical, etc.) are being offshored.
So what exactly does one retrain in? Let's look at the options:
* Biotech -- is there any reason that new biotech jobs can't be created overseas instead?
* Nanotech -- is there any reason that new nanotech jobs can't be created overseas instead?
* Medicine -- oooh, wait, radiology is already being offshored, and so are surgical jobs
Note that those are all technology-oriented jobs which do not require one's presence. What technology-oriented jobs require one's presence then?
* Auto mechanic -- for the few geeks who can tolerate working outdoors, with their hands, getting dirty, etc.
* IT technician -- the basically blue-collar guys who schlep computers around, run cables, and replace bad hardware
* Nuclear engineer -- because It Is Stupid to not have people on-site to prevent a nuclear plant from going boom in the event of an emergency
So, can the hundreds of thousands of software geeks who have had their jobs offshored retrain to be auto mechanics? Even if they wanted to, I doubt they could, and as cars become increasingly-reliable, demand for those jobs will decrease. IT technicians? We have a glut of them as it is. Nuclear engineers? This nation is too scared of nuclear power (thanks to Chernobyl and Three-Mile Island) for there to be much of a market for nuclear power.
So, what do we do? Just what jobs are there beyond "knowledge" jobs? If you assume that international trade (and preferably free trade) is a good thing -- as I do, due to comparative advantage -- then you must admit that many of these jobs can go overseas now thanks to the Internet's ability to send data worldwide at dirt-cheap prices.
Now, the standard economist's response to that is that "new jobs will be created as a result of trade." On the face of things, this is true.
But return to the fact that the Internet makes all jobs which deal primarily with information (instead of people) offshorable. Given that fact, what reason is there that the new jobs -- which WILL be created, just as economists tell you -- won't be created overseas, but will be created here in America? Again, is there any reason the new jobs -- which we can reasonably expect to see in biotech and nanotech -- won't simply skip the step of being created in America and instead get created in India first?
I wrote an email to one of my economics professors asking that question (and many others) recently. His response? "Gee, you know that's what interests me about economics so much - why do these things happen?" But he never really answered the question.
If a college professor in Econ. doesn't know the answer, who does?
Question 2: Education.
Often the advice to unemployed IT geeks is to retrain. Retraining requires education. Education requires years of time and money.
Simple question: Where does an unemployed IT geek *get* that money to retrain with, given the rapidly-rising costs of a college education?
Moreover, how can America -- which largely does not subsidize post-secondary education -- compete with foreign nations which do subsidize post-secondary education?
So long as this educational barrier-
Is Capitalism Good for the Poor?
I can remember a few weeks ago - and this is purely anecdotal on my part - watching CNBC on the TV in the Cafeteria at work, and they were interviewing a couple of stock analysts about the "recovery" and offshoring labor, and one of the guys made a comment that made everyone in the room sort of gasp.
He said, paraphrasing, "America, which for the last fifty years or so has been consuming vastly greater amounts of resources than they produce, has had an artificially high standard of living. Its going to be painful until the American lifestyle comes more in line with the rest of the world."
Just thought I would relate that observation. It seemed appropriate when the topic of outsourcing and offshoring comes up. You can take it as either playing devil's advocate, or something to get you motivated to ensure that it doesn't happen.
What?
when 15-20% of their workers end up working for a company that's profits go back into US stock holders instead of back into their own economy? whether or not it's good for us, is making more poor people dependent on the US one of the unmentionable goals of offshoring?
Why do U.S. companies outsource technical support when it isn't successful?
Who says it isn't successful? I recently found myself talking to a nice Indian chap to solve a tech issue and he was very competent and respectful and he helped solve my problem.
The knee-jerk reaction to the outsourcing issue is to place blame everywhere else but in the mirror. Outsourcing wouldn't be as much of an issue if the American workforce wasn't so lazy and undisciplined. It's never been just about costs; saving money and providing lower-quality service doesn't work. In many cases, there's likely a better ratio of quality:costs in outsourcing. The solution to the problem isn't to outlaw outsourcing or turn it into a sign of shame. It's to figure out how domestically, the workforce can be more productive and efficient, and especially in tech scenarios, this doesn't necessarily involve slave labor.
I am curious if, for instance, Indian people who work for an American (or other country) corporation are concerned that as their wages increase their jobs will be moved to another country with even cheaper wages.
It seems that a vast majority of American corporations that outsource their IT work send it to India. Lately there appears to be a shift to the Philippines, especially for help desk related positions. Do Indian employees share the same fears some Americans do that there jobs too will be sent overseas to another country?
Conservative columnist Paul Craig Roberts writes in his March 10th column, 03/10/04 - Outsourcing: A New Occupational Hazard, "High school and college students
Engineering school is hard. Few are likely to chose a curriculum so difficult unless there's some propect for making a good living. Young people can see ample evidence that engineering careers are short lived. Enrollments have declined considerably in recent years. If this trend continues, will there be much demand for engineering education in the US?
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
How much are they saving in taxes when they outsource?
Hi there, I am a horse fucker and I was wondering if horse fucking would be allowed in India?
...and in other news, UK Fatasses up by 20%. Fat ass seems to be spreading with globalization (no pun intended)
Who is making these office chairs anyway.... I want to work for them. Heavy duty will now be required world wide.
Well, in many senses, especially the Marxist, the working class is largely vanishing as a class in the USA. The grandchildren of post-WWII auto workers go to college now, and work in service industries. Really, if you did a poll, how many people in the US call themselves "Working Class?" And how many of those are really college graduates slumming for a couple of years? Social mobility really keeps traditional class boundaries from being one of the major divides in US politics today. In US history racial and cultural issues have been much more divisive and persistent.
Unionized workers think of themselves as working people, but middle class. Poverty is a different issue. But the poor mainly hope to not be poor, and don't have a lot of personal allegiance to the class of the poverty-stricken.
Also, I don't think it is a widely held view that the concentration of capital is good for all of us. This is why most honest economists like high inheritance taxes, to prevent multiple generation accumulation of wealth.
In fact, capital is pretty widely distributed these days, with 401(k)'s, pension plans, and home equity.
My video compression blog
Just how outsourcing one of the highest-margin industries to another country and depleting hi-tech talent pool that takes decades (and shitloads of money) to rebuild helps the US economy.
It'd be also cool to hear someone from Federal Reserve System explain how long does this country expect to live in prosperity by simply exporting national debt while not manufacturing the actual _stuff_ (be it IP, goods, natural resources, etc.). There's gotta be a breaking point to this trend.
How much will the cost of rope skyrocket when the million man hanging party descends on Washington DC?
eat shiat and bark at the moon
Where was the outrage among IT workers when they were creating software for:
* Automated grocery checkout, resulting in less cashier jobs at grocery stores
* Automated touchtone menus for customer service call centers, resulting in less customer service jobs
* Online sites to book flights, hotels, rental cars, resulting in less travel agent jobs
* MP3 techology, resulting in less music distribution jobs
?
I think these, among many other examples of automation, demonstrate shifting business models that benefit society as a whole while requiring the displacement of some individuals in certain jobs. Just like India provides cheaper labor which displaces some IT jobs (while keeping prices for society as a whole lower), IT work has lead to the displacement of jobs in other areas.
"Also, it's inarguable, if not well-known, that neoclassical economics is fatally flawed"
Yet, it is the best system known.
"Letting corporations do whatever they want is just as bad as letting the pre-breakup "
Except this is never the case. Corporations are by design accountable to shareholders, employees, and customers. They must serve all 3 or they will fail.
"Why are people so deeply distrustful of "big government", but willing to accept an unlimited amount of abuse from private industry?"
They aren't. If government abuses you, you are a corpse with a bullet in your head. If a company abuses you (i.e. charges too much for a product), you go buy it elsewhere.
" Rather they exist specifically to concentrate as much wealth as possible in the hands of as few people as possible"
This has absolutely nothing to do with anything, let alone why companies exist.
"So most of the pundits and economists arguing about how great NAFTA etc. are for everyone have no idea what they are talking about"
They know what they are talking about. Those who oppose NAFTA have no idea what they are talking about: they don't want the people to make economic decisions.
We hear from both camps. On one side (and the side I am on), software development claims the jobs are moving overseas, and therefore make jobs more scarce here in the US and thus by pure supply and demand, salaries and rates go down. This is a no brainer.
But then we hear from the Bush administration and companies who embrace the outsourcing initiatives, saying that we need additional training to make us more valuable to companies, and we will therefore have more value and thus be paid more. They claim new skills such as design and architecture will be key.
The question is, does the Bush administration and other companies really expect that we accept this claim? Being both an economics major in college, as well as being a software architect for several years, I am claiming the law of supply and demand applies here as well. If more people are learning architecture and design, then supply of headcount will outnumber the demand for architecture and design. Salaries then go down and jobs become scarce. Being that I have been an architect for so long, I have felt the pinch of my rate and salary due to this simple law of economics. How does the Bush adminstration and supporting organizations of outsourcing explain where all these newly trained architects will find work and how salaries will effectively increase? Are they really telling us we need to be in another industry? Its kind of hard to tell people this, now isn't it?
"I have to say that if the guy enjoys his work he should be doing it. I have worked in three fields and can safely tell you that you need to find the field that fits you not the one that might allow you to make the max income."
So what's the difference between the field you hate and pays maximumn income and the field you like that pays nothing? Oh, lookie, even the "doing it for the love" people need to make enough money to eat. I've yet to see a bill collector that would take "love" as payment. Besides there's nothing wrong with making lots of money (honestly). That's called "The American dream". You're not going to get that working a McJob
:)
raj
Sarovar.org Hosting for open source projects in Indi
What will you do when your country is no longer the cheaper and *you* are outsourced? How deep does the rabbit hole go Alice?
Who is being outsourced, who is getting the jobs, who is making the decisions.
What is the result of outsourcing: product quality, economic effects...?
When:How long has this been going on? history of jobs going overseas, and how the current situation is different.
Where:What areas of the country are being hardest hit (i'd have to assume silicon valley, but I could be wrong).
Why are the companies doing it? How much is saved? What is being done with that extra cash?
"The greatest accomplishment of the elite ruling class is that they got the masses to believe that elite goals are the goals of the nation"
The ruling class (government) is the main force opposing free trade, as the government gets rich off of tariffs.
The masses already know that free trade is a great idea. Who doesn't want to be able to buy the best car regardless of what country it is made in?
"The core of the problem is that a solution for 10,000 people"
Like those Seattle protesters who marched in opposition to letting the people make their own trade decisions?
Outsourcing refers to jobs being sent to countries outside the US. But what about insourcing - where jobs come to the US from foreign countries? Essentially its the opposite of outsourcing (from the US side).
I've heard second hand that the number of insourced jobs is greater than the number of oursourced jobs. Is that true? If it is, it would appear that outsourcing is good for us.
In order to provide a balanced documentary, please examine the foreign companies that are "in-sourcing" labor -- shifting labor from overseas into the United States.
I just heard on the radio (no source mentioned) that last quarter the number of in-sourced jobs was larger than the number of out-sourced jobs.
Further, please examine the ramifications of protectionist policies, and ask economists about their long term ramifications. There is way too much "outsourcing is evil" or "outsourcing is great" without balance or attribution.
Does outsourcing jobs in one catagory save jobs in another? e.g. Having Xerox handle internal publishing.
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Since NAFTA's initial rush, there are reports of manufacturing jobs coming BACK from Mexico. That "giant sucking sound" that Perot used to describe maquilladora companies running for the Mexican border never really materialized in the volume he thought it would. Also, several of those factories are coming back, as they get better productivity from USians.
One function of outsourcing is that the labor is cheaper, which shows up quickly on the company balance sheet. If revenue is stable, and costs go down, profit goes up. What doesn't show up quickly is ineffeciency. e.g. Time lost due to cultural differences, time spent rewriting poor code, the cost of having to negotiate every change request, and so on. While these costs exist for locally sourced companies, I'd argue they're probably lower.
It's not strictly the price of the labor that's at issue, it's performance per dollar spent. Given the economic mess, it's all about the price of the labor right now, but the efficiency argument will start creeping back in over time.
The multiplier is the key here. Does the money just go back into company coffers, or is it actually distributed?
If it's held as cash by the company, then its effect is negligible, except for the value of the company's equity. It's not used to buy things in the local market, which contributes to the bottom line (and profits, and eventually more purchases) of the various merchants, and so on.
If it's distributed as dividends, is that money used to buy goods in the local market, or reinvested? I would suggest that the supplyside economic model can be criticized here, as dividends paid to stockholders at large might tend to be reinvested (sometimes automatically, sometimes not), and the economic multiplier for that cash is very, very small.
If it had actually been used to pay a local programmer, who was using it to live, then the majority of the money is probably circulating freely, having been spent with merchants.
We can get into issues with the WalMartization of the planet here, but let's not.
Again, this is arguable. Sure, we're helping them in the short term, but we've all heard stories of how the Indian outsources are getting undercut by the Czechs, or the Philipinos, or the Malaysians, or whomever.
I'm not sure, but I think this is the core of the globalist "race to the bottom" argument. If you assume that the company only cares about workers/$, then it would be logical for the jobs to drift towards the cheapest labor. Problem is, the cheapest country for labor changes periodically, and suddenly you have several countries vying for the lowest price. Does this unstable economic injection actually help their economy in the long run? Tough call.
ceci n'est pas un sig.
"how bad do I want my ass kicked?"
Okay, I've got some personal experience on this one.
I spent a fair amount of the last couple years working as a consultant on a product that was being handles by the Indian division of a US software company.
A few interesting points:
This project wouldn't have happened without outsourcing. The product is useful but complex to code and test, and the parent company simply wouldn't have bothered to do it as US wages.
Product management was done from the USA, but project management was done locally. This worked well.
All the Indian workers I dealt with were smart and really cared about making a good product. We developed a good mutual appreciation for our relative strengths. It was a good experience.
The customers like the product that came out. I've worked on similar projects, and having a lot more engineers for the budget made a big difference in refinement. There were a few useful features that aren't available in any other tools today because they required a dedicated engineer for a year, which would have been too expensive in the USA.
I got paid a bunch of money to add value to the product, by applying my subject matter expertise for the industry in question. There isn't anyone in India with that kind of background. My part couldn't have been usefully outsourced, at least not until India has a big video production sector which people with my kind of background can come out of.
Also, as a contractor, I can tell you you're complete wrong about my only goal being to screw more money out of the client. Every project I do for a client is the best argument I have for doing the next project from them. For the client I'm talking about, I busted my hump, and then they put me on retainer after I finished the first deliverables. Everyone's happy, and everyone did good work. Even though I don't get health insurance or a full-time salary from the company, I enjoy the work I do for them, and am very motivated. And I actually appreciate not having to look busy on days where I don't have anything to do. Since I'm not an employee, I can be judged entirely on the quality of my work, which is how I want it.
My video compression blog
The company and the jobs were never there in the first place, so every job sent there is a net gain for them.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
The commodization of any new technology and the moving of the labor force from innovators to less expensive maintainers is a natural cycle of any new industry.
Take for example textiles. Not many of our clothes are made here in the US anymore. Because the technology for textiles has become standardized and there's no need for sharp innovators to be involved in the process anymore. The job can be done by a less expensive, less skilled labor force in a place with an inferior national infrustructure. The textile industry has been for a large-part 'offshored'.
Whatever you are making (or not making) right now would you rather have the textile system as it is today? Or would you rather Americans be making textiles and your clothes cost three times as much?
Let the offshore folks handle tech support calls and maintaining all the ugly code we've written way-too-rapidly in the boom. Nether of those jobs appeal to me anyway. And lets get on with what us americans are good at doing... Innovating and creating the 'NEXT BIG THING'!
-- Greg
Slashdot, would a spell-checker for posting be too much to ask? It's not rocket science!
A common retort by "them" when faced with the reality that offshoring causes the US to lose jobs overseas, is that jobs are created in the US to support and/or augment those jobs that went overseas.
I call BS on that, and here is the question to ask if someone trys to use that line on you:
"What jobs, specifically, are created by sending other jobs overseas? Wouldn't those jobs have to exist anyway, if the parent job in question were not sent overseas?"
And finally, lets get some specifics here. Those that try to rebut the facts of offshoring never speak in specifics. Here is a specific for you:
At my company, about 50 helpdesk style jobs, level 1 class, were sent to Hydrabad India. How do those jobs leaving create jobs here? Level 2 does exist here, but if the level 1 jobs were here, you know what? The level 2 would still have to be here.
Here is another question:
"Why isn't it illegal to import people from India on 12 month visa to fill positions that get 400-500 resumes from local people, when they are posted according to US law? You cannot tell me that there isn't qualified NT admins in ANY local area, and yet these positions have imported labor."
And here is another specific:
My company has over 150 imported Indians that fill all sorts of mundane IT jobs. After 12 months, they go away and are replaced by another cog in the offshoring machine. How is this creating jobs here? The managers/architects that supervise these people? Guess what, the supervisors/architects would have to exist anyway if Americans had these jobs.
And that is the part that seems totally illegal... importing people on visa to fill positions so the company doesn't have to pay local pay. Offshoring is one thing, but seemingly breaking the spirit of the visa rules for techincal people to fill positions that local people would LOVE to have. I know so many out of work, or working other random jobs they COULD get, that are more than qualified.
And this is the largest company in the world I am talking about here, not some fly-by-night gig.
Q: Why are industry experts continually quoted in offshoring good or bad news articles?
These industry experts, e.g., the Gartner Group, make money by helping companies offshore labor.
The news articles will quote the biased Gartner Group person as stating the offshoring is not bad and not the reason why IT jobs have been lost in the USA.
Companies may think they are saving money by outsorcing but by outsourcing u are displacing jobs in america, which will also displace spending in america. Has a company that outsources ever considered that they are actually making their company less valuable by outsourcing by supporting other economies. Our dollar is losing ground every day because no one is spending, well how are we supposed to spend if we can't. People that outsource are actually making the standard of living in the US less, and are making their companies less valuable. I could not give a shit about 3rd world countries at this point.... I am sorry but I dont... Supporting other economies just brings the US to a more level playing feild I don't see that as a good thing. Because regardless of what the french say, and besides our current moron president, the US is a damn good country. If u don't believe me about companies/people making their worth less valuable by outsourcing I suggest u google a recent story about how gates is no longer the most richest man in the world because the american dollar is losing ground to the euro. Its a cold hard fact. www.mzlan.com - cool gaming site...
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But Americans (and now even Brits) have been so propagandized, it seems most of them can even think straight when it comes to this kind of subject.
eat shiat and bark at the moon
""Why isn't it illegal to import people from India on 12 month visa to fill positions that get 400-500 resumes from local people, when they are posted according to US law? You cannot tell me that there isn't qualified NT admins in ANY local area, and yet these positions have imported labor."
Why should this be illegal? Of course it should not be. The chances of getting the best employee for the job are increased by expanding the pool you are looking at.
When I say "war", I'm not talking about picking on a developing nation on the other side of the world. I'm talking about a global cataclysm. Think World War III.
The ability of a country to wage war is highly dependent upon that country's industrial capacity. At least that has been the case for the wars fought in the industrial age. No one knows what "post-industrial" warfare might look like, but I still think that it is reasonable to assume that we are going to need to make planes, tanks, guns, bullets, uniforms, etc.
How the hell are we supposed to do that when we don't make things here anymore? Will we be able to rely on imports from overseas? Would national security keep us from trusting other nations to build our state of the art weapons? How do we know we can rely on them? Are we supposed to provide armed escort for all incoming shipments? How much strain would that put on the military? How much more would that cost than just manufacturing things domestically?
A lot of the reasoning that I've seen from people regarding outsourcing has been astoundingly myopic. If we give away all our secrets to other countries that can already beat us in cost of labor, do we really think that there countries are going to stand by and let American CEOs exploit their cheap labor forever? Are managers REALLY that valuable? Are Indian CEOs that impossible for people to imagine?
I often hear the argument that outsourcing is neccessary because once one company does it, they can lower prices, and the rest have to follow to stay competitive. If companies really want to stay lean and fit, why do executives need to get paid hundreds of millions of dollars per year? How much could prices be lowered if they were compensated more reasonably?
"But Americans (and now even Brits) have been so propagandized"
Translation: They have "seen the light" about the dangers of socialism, and the problem of "We're from the government, we're here to help you."
Americans more than most are very perceptive about the true costs of socialism.
My answer: because it isn't primarily about the wages and never was. It's to escape the massive weight of regulation and taxation for employees and workplaces. The US Federal Government has instituted so many rules that they've "broken the camel's back" so to speak. Companies are now willing to put up with the added complexity and inconvenience of offshoring because the benefits now outweigh the disadvantages.
Er, why do you think that outsourcing is the main blame there? It's lot like we're importing tons of rockets and APCs from India!
As for San Jose, maybe downtown isn't hopping, but Adobe just put up a third high-rise office building a few blocks away. And the freeways around San Jose are plenty busy at rush hour (although less so than in 2000).
Don't blame outsourcing for EVERYTHING that has gone wrong with the IT sector. The bubble popping was at least 10x a bigger deal.
My video compression blog
Africa doesn't have the education levels, yet. But when they do, we'll be there.
That's a long way off. If you ever travel in Africa for a more than a couple of weeks at a time, you will surely encounter the concept of "Africa Time". It is essentially the idea that time doesn't matter much. Africans don't punch clocks. They don't quibble out an hour or two plus or minus. As a result, it best not to schedule more than one, maybe two things in a day. You never know when they are going to happen. It is actually a very relxing viewpoint once you get used to it, but it is no way to run a business.
In East Africa, commerce is virtually controlled by Indians. There is much resentment that the Indians are hoarding the wealth for themselves. Some of it is likely deserved. Personally, though, I think it is the Indians that hold economy together, such that it is. Idi Amin found this out. When he expelled the Indians from Uganda, the economy virtually collapsed.
The Southern African countries are more properous but that prosperity is propped up by mineral wealth and mostly administered by Westerners.
Among the Africans themselves, you have the problems of corruption, tribleism and a worldview that just doesn't see efficiency as a priority. The Chineese are poor but they work really hard to push themselves, their family, their nation forward. Africa has nothing like that. Until it does, Africa will continue to be a basket case and no threat whatsoever to Western economies.
To those with grandchildren in college pursuing IT degrees, what advice would you have for them?
I have been reading for several years now that the middle class has been flat in pay and job growth since the 70's. Not only that but the low-end middle has even seen negative numbers. If my history is correct this coincides with the beginning of significant outsourcing by industry. Does this correlate? And if it does does that mean that the middle class and lower economic folk in America can look forward to another 30 years of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer?
It is never a good thing for any country to lose its middle class.
In my personal experience, and from reading CIO magazine, it seems like much of this is a herd mentality. Since other CIOs are doing it, everyone has to have a program at the very least studying it, and pilot programs, etc. The herd mentality rules. Pressure from stock holders, is quoted often.
Starting with the desired end result, the data is massaged until the numbers add up, most of the time by leaving out some key information, like flexibility, responsiveness, communication, synergy or several other things that are "soft" data.
This is the same thing that happened when the IBMs and EDS made the big push, and everyone bought into it, outsourced and then realized that much of IT was a function that could be better done in house. Seems to me this is more of the same cycle, but with a bit of observation and analysis, this money-wasting circle could be avoided.
So ask them how they successfully resist the "give the boss what he wants" in the analysis phase, and how much is being done because it is fashionable.
The strong do what they can, while the weak suffer what they must.
"South Africa's education system is on par with most countries, especially tertiary education. However, the number of well trained people produced is relatively low."
It is in par with most countries, as most countries are rather uneducated and backward. South Africa's education system still ill-serves most of the people there.
You could have 10 degrees in the most hardest subjects and it still doesn't mean that you are owed anything in life.
If you think the path to success is Pre-school -> Grammar School -> Middle School -> High School -> College -> Lucrative Job then you are an idiot! Also why did you study harder than your friends? They've got the same thing you do, a degree. How many employers do you think take a look at your individual GPAs?
"I put my time in, now I want my fucking job" WAAAAA WAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAA. You poor baby. You poor poor baby.
You are in the real world now bitch! If you don't know, you better ask somebody!
Sucka.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
"Frankly I'd rather them remain poor"
Thanks, Marie Antoinette. Let them eat cake!
"Repeat after me: Race to the bottom."
It's "race to the real value". Everyone ends up benefiting if you get rid of tarrifs and silly restrictions on trading over international borders, except for corrupt special interests illicitly protected by "protectionism".
"When you're done, explain why you think richer nations owe it to third world nations to do business with them "
They don't "owe" this. However, the governments of the rich countries owe it to us (the people in the rich countries) to get out of the way if we choose to buy a better car that is foreign or hire a better worker that is foreign. Let the people choose, not the government.
Ask the communities where all the jobs are being outsource. Especially the city government, and where the income tax disapear and people moving away.
One of the biggest problems with off-shoring is that it is only cheaper for large projects using outdated waterfall methodologies.
Sure, I suppose that moving these offshore could save costs (aside from extra risk & time incurred in communication).
But the REAL issue is that these projects shouldn't be moved offshore - they should be killed. Then restarted with small agile teams. I suppose there might be a project somewhere that doesn't fit the agile model - though in 22 years of development, I haven't come across it yet.
So the answer to offshoring is actually to change the question - not whether to offshore, but whether offshoring can work at all in an agile project. The common wisdom is *not at all*.
Outsourcing is killing this demographic. These are the people's jobs you are putting in a different country by outsourcing. These are the people that are manufacturing the steel for your SUV, growing the grain for your morning muffin, and making the parts for your Trek mountain bike you rode last Sunday. These industries are leaving the U.S.A. and not coming back. They are taking with them the manufacturing, marketing, IT, middle management, and other symbiotic positions that rely on each other in order to exist. Sure these people can look at the "Corporate Dxodus" as an opportunity, but for what? THERE IS NOTHING LEFT to get hired for unless you are going to be an attorney, a politician, or get in on the Board of Directors.
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
"Really? Then how do you explain the ratio of CEO pay to average employee pay being an order of magnitude higher in the US than in other advanced industrialized countries?"
Because that is the real value. The US actually has less government interference in these matters, so such pay reflects its real value.
Is the main question the film will need to answer. Because the general public never gave a damn about manufacturing and textiles. (This is a serious entry btw, I think its important the film makers come up with some sort of answer to this if its to be more than a whine-fest that preaches to the converted)
Every economist they interview should be asked the following question, "Extending current trends in outsourcing what will the American economy look like and what will the world economy look like as a result in the next several decades?"
Politicus
Once they know your business, what's to stop them bypassing your entire business, and selling direct to US consumers?
This guy is right, the market sets the price for goods, and the execs at corporations have a fudiciary obligation to shareholders to maximize profits. Thus, the savings rarely reach consumers. The price drops mentioned in the parent's parent post cannot be proven as a consequence of cheaper foreign labor. IMO, the lower cost of today's vehicles is a matter of better manufacturing processes. As plant technology improves, cars can be made faster/cheaper.
My biggest problem with outsourcing is that savings aren't reaching consumers. IT isn't the only industry losing jobs to India. There are quite a bit of collections jobs being sent to India. These weren't necessarily high-paying jobs to begin with, but they are jobs none-the-less. One example is American Eagle. Their collections department uses an Indian firm to make their outgoing calls. Has anyone seen any kind of price drop on American Eagle clothes? Another example is HP/Compaq. Everyone's favorite CEO (Carly) has been a big proponent of outsourcing recently, but I don't see HP's PCs coming down in price. Yet, because of her cost-cutting efforts she is hailed as an excellent executive in the business community. Despite laying off tons of American employees, she is still approving cush expenses on things like company-owned airplanes. I'm not expecting a big drop in price every time a company saves money, but there is currently too much pressure on public corporations to increase the profit margins. On a macro-economic scale, the only people to benefit are going to be the wealthy.
So, that would be my question to parties that are pro-outsourcing.... What will be done to make sure cost savings achieved by corporations trickle down to consumers? What can be done to educate shareholders on the value of retaining American jobs, which in turn become American customers?
I mean companies like Motorolla and AMD are not entirely US based anyways? AMD has a fab in Germany. Does that count as "outsourcing? They make the parts in Malaysia [for basically ever...] is that "outsourcing"?
Who says a company must solely have business in US?
Fuck you americans You suck.
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
You are essentially saying that manufacturing costs have no impact on consumer prices. To be consistent you would have to claim that consumer prices would not rise if manufacturing costs increased. You could disprove that just looking at manufacturing costs and consumer prices for pretty much any good, and observe at the canny resemblance. But I'll try with a concrete math example.
Let's say Volvo sells 100.000 cars a year for $30k that they spend $25k to manufacture. That brings in $500M. They could lower the price to 29k and sell 120.000 cars and make $480M, or they could raise the price to $31k, sell 80.000 cars and make $480M. Clearly they picked the selling price $30k to maximize their profit.
Now let's say they figure out a way to make the cars for $23k. Selling 100.000 cars will now bring in $700M. But selling 120.000 cars for $29k will make $720M. So they lower the price. It's really quite simple if you look at it the right way.
The common misunderstanding here is that people think Volvo won't pass on their savings since they're greedy bastards. In actual fact, they will pass on their savings because they are greedy bastards, and will make more profit doing so!
No, there won't be a price drop. Prices are established by the market, not arbitrarily set by the manufacturer. A Ford Focus will cost as much as people are willing to pay for it, given demand and supply. Moving the plant to El Salvador changes neither supply nor demand. You aren't opening a new consumer base, and you aren't getting yourself a way to fulfill previously unfilled demand. It only lowers the price of making the good, thus increasing the profit margin.
Put in those terms, prices for a single manufacturers goods are arbitrarily set by it. How much it will sell at that price is determined by the market. That is how lowering costs does increase supply at a certain price.
What is the reaction of your interviewees to this study? Are the data and conclusions sound?
Yo mama so fake, she failed the Turing Test.
I don't think American companies should do business with a country that has 250 million slaves a.k.a. Dalits. Everyone talks about Gandhi, but he did nothing for the Dalits.
http://www.dalits.org/default.htm
1. If outsourcing from California to India is "greedy" or otherwise morally wrong in some way, then what about outsourcing from California to, say, Alabama?
2. Do people in India or China have less right to make a living and feed their families than Americans do?
3. In a business, does management have a duty to artificially maintain relatively high wages in the US for equivalent work? Is that a higher duty than their duty to the shareholders?
4. What duty do the workers owe management in return?
5. Would you support relaxed regulations and tax cuts to help bring the cost of US labor down closer to that of foreign labor?
6. Which world leader is more just: George Bush or Fidel Castro. (This is just to determine who you're talking to.)
But Americans, sedated by TV and sugar just sit on their lardy arses and post to Slashdot. If this is the best you can do: "it my job because I'm an American" then you deserve to lose it. You (individually and corporately) have done fuck all to protect yourselves.
[This post has trollish tendencies but reflects a genuine frustration on the part of the author]
They should ask what effect implementing something like the Fair Tax (www.fairtax.org) would have on companies' decision to outsource.
I have read in many places that 'experts' think something like the Fair Tax would make the United States much more competitive in the global economy by significantly reducing costs.
I'm wondering if any of these CEOs agree, and it would put a damper on outsource plans.
Why are call center workers who handle the private information of US citizens (banks, credit cards, etc) in foreign countries trained to sound like Americans? If outsourcing is so great, why are foreign workers forced to pretend that they are American?
Why are US workers forced to train their replacements, all the while being told that their job is being eliminated because it's the only way for the company to remain profitable?
Is it moral to outsource government services such as upgrading the system that provides aid to unemployed workers or customer service to food stamp receipients to workers who make one fourth of what an American worker would make?
Why are groups that are obviously lobbying groups for corporate interests being allowed to dictate our nation's policy on everything IT?
What effect does outsourcing have on innovation? The skilled workers in the US are not allowed to compete for jobs because American workers are too costly. The marginally skilled workers in countries where costs are lower are making the same types of technical mistakes that US workers made years ago. If outsourcing had been done for reasons other than pure price, would technology be on a different level now?
Why isn't the connection between the misuse of H1B and L1 visas and business access to cheap labor in other countries ever discussed?
With all the talk about how jobs go overseas, most Americans equate offshoring to job losses. No such documentary could be complete without mentioning that on balance, foreign companies created 6.4 million jobs in the US. Exports of US goods to foreign countries made by foreign owned businesses comprise 22% of all us exports. Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) has increased by $82 Bn USD in FY2003, creating 400,000 new jobs. The weak US Dollar combined with our lower taxes is encouraging economic growth so much that companies like Honda and Toyota now make cars for the US market in California and Tennessee - NOT Japan. The EU's OECD is threatening trade sanctions, claiming our lower costs of doing business are a "tax subsidy" (i.e., not overtaxing business is the same as paying their taxes for them...wonderful circular logic).
Source: http://www.ofii.org/insourcing/
Man... I just modded you +1 Insightful *and* after reading your earlier posts, I added you to my friends list but I wish there was something more that I could do. It is times like these where I wish that Slashdot had a bulletin board page for each user's homepage so that I could post a longer message just to you but this will have to do...
Keep it up. I tend to self-identify as being socially aware/socially active. I spend a fair amount of energy focusing on issues of poverty and public policy. I think it is important to have people working to better the lives of individual members of society who have "fallen through the cracks" for one reason or another -- but doing things like this can never be more than stopgap measures, at best. The fact of the matter is that when there is more money to go around, this benefits everyone. Without education, hard work and a solid understanding of how our economic engine works, everyone suffers and talented people will simply do what they always do -- go someplace else where they can achieve. This anti-capitalistic, intellectually dishonest tripe that gets thrown into the same mix leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It is refreshing to read a post that was so spot on. Who cares if our politics/worldviews match completely or not -- the fact of the matter is that you were direct and to the point and said four very important things that were largely lacking from the "me too" fest that outsourcing articles on Slashdot have become... Comments like yours are the reason I keep coming back here. Intelligent, insightful and begging for a response. Slashdot is all about debate and you, sir, seem to have a gift. Keep it up!!!
Contractors historically have only been interested in making more money than the client and ripping the client off in the end. They have no loyalty or incentive to make the client money like a staff employee would.
All this talk about raising the standard of living by using free programmers to do the cutting edge work somewhere else just doesn't make sense given the historic incentive for the contractors to take the money and run.
Today virtually all aspects of American businesses except the top executives are performed by contractors overseas. With so much of the mechanics of business being performed overseas, what's stopping the offshore workers from just running the businesses themselves and taking America out of the loop?
nt
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Rather than "explain" it, I'll assign it the status of "symptom" of having by far the largest, most powerful economic system on earth. Why would we compare such an economic powerhouse to the machinations of other inefficient economic weaklings of the world? Jeez, California alone has an economy in the top-15 when compared to your "advanced industrialized countries."
I love people who like to compare the US to other countries out of context. IOW, they might have nice, socialist CEO pay, but they also have the othger inevitable trappings of socialism: No abundance of capital, poor standard of living, no innovation, inefficiency, less consumer choice, and less freedom. After all, pure socialism can only be achieved through compulsion.
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the uneven division of blessings, while the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal division of misery."
-- Winston Churchill
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
There are NO RESTRICTIONS on the L1 visas as far as making sure that there is not a qualified American to do the job. There is NO WAGE REQUIREMENT, so it may be these people are working in the US and making Indian wages.
These visas are snapped up by the big Indian consulting companies as a way to market their cheap labor in the US.
For fun, notice the age and sexes of these imported workers. The big Indian consulting firms that import labor are NOT bound to US hiring laws, and frequently advertise age limits in the job postings in India for these positions.
Some things I'd like to see investigated (I wouldn't expect straight answers to these questions):
1. The usual reason given for outsourcing is that it's cheaper. What about other reasons? Freedom from Government regulation? Freedom from stockholder/top management oversight? Financial shennagians?
2. In the manufacturing world, we've seen outsourcing start with assembly-line work and end up with essentially the entire operation overseas. (Think of home entertainment.) How high up the corporate ladder will the current outsourcing trend go? Could you, for example, run an entire bank branch (not just tellers) from India? Newspaper back office? Stock brokerage? Law office?
3. What is happening to the Indian outsourcing firms as even cheaper countries (Russia, Ukraine) get into the act?
4. Freedom from Government interference is one advantage given for outsourcing. What about the downside? Organized crime? Political corruption/extortion? (How do you *know* that your shiny new system doesn't have a backdoor, now that you've fired all the engineers?)
Welcome to the Turing Tarpit, where everything is possible but nothing interesting is easy.
so here's what you ask.
What's the median training time the employeed spent/had during the last 5 years.
How much time/money did the employeed invest in their own career in the last 5 years.
Was that lost job largely done by low cost H1-B visa contractors HERE before going over THERE.
The question(s) basically comes down to: how many people can a nation support, and still remain viable, long and short term? Both as "the employed", and "the dependents".*
After that point it's all details.
*The only group left out are the independents. Their output neither feeds the system, nor are they a drag on the system.
Maybe the answer is that we all become independents, but then we wouldn't have a society, now would we?
The guys in the Auto Shops have to deal with the same (l)user crap that IT people have.
Man, no matter what you choose to do with your life, there will always be stupid people around to F*&( with you.
Sean D.
"Hmm. I am to metaphor cheese as metaphor cheese is to transitive verb crackers!"
Erm doesn't it concern anyone that if we outsource all the IT jobs that eventually no one in the US will go to school for it meaning we won't have any programmers?
Seeing as how a great amount of our future infrastructure(and present) is dependant on software, does this not seem like a dangerous situation?
Example
India: Hmm we don't like America anymore, no more software for joo!!
US: Ah crap, we found a bug in the flight control software, oh well Billy-Bob, guess we just shut it all down, ah-yup.
To me corporations are like people with no morals. What we really should be doing is trying to find a cure for this scourge called greed.
I propose that slashdot programatically replace the period at the end of every sentence advocating outsourcing. The period should be replaced with ", as long as it's not my job that gets outsourced."
Cm'on, it's fun, and it really sheds some insight into where these people are coming from...
l8,
AC
Still employed, but not for long.
A ford focus will cost as much as people are willing to pay for it, given demand and supply. Of course this is true. The issue then is *supply*. If a car manufacturer can start making cars more cheaply, he may also find it is in his best interest to make more cars. In short, the supply curve for the market will shift based on what this company can do. If all the companies start being able to make cheaper cars, then the supply curve could potentially shift even more. For each individual firm this would be shown as a decrease in the marginal cost of producing cars.
Obviously the elasticity and slope of demand will play a large role in how much, if at all, car prices will go down, but it makes no sense for the companies to just pocket some cash if they can make more money selling a few more cars at the lower price. And if you look at the proliferation of cars in america over the last 25 years you'll see that there was no shortage of demand as prices relative to income dropped. I think there are more cars in america than people now, which was definitely not always the case.
Pretty much the only way that your scenario would come true is if someone had a total monopoly on car production, but even then a decrease in the cost of making anything almost always results in an increase in the supply. So supply and demand meet at a lower place, and price goes down. The company, however, makes more money than if they sat at the previous production. Prices perhaps end up where they make the same margin per car that they made before, but since they make 10% more cars, they make 10% more money.
Manufacturing jobs have been "outsourced" overseas for a very long time. One could say that outsourcing has simply been moving steadily along a continuum from less-skilled to more-skilled jobs (i.e., less-well-paid to more-well-paid). Perhaps this latest wave of concern is not the result of a fundamental change in outsourcing, but is instead just a symptom of its arrival at a particular skill/pay/pain threshold.
If we're simply experiencing a natural extrapolation of the outsourcing trend, should we react to it any differently than we reacted to the loss of our manufacturing jobs (as painful as that was)? Is there truly a need for any more action/legislation here than we thought we needed when we were losing our steel industry?
have been FIRED and put out on their asses, do it in the same style as "Roger & Me"..
I despise that piece of crap Micheal Moore but the above mentioned film he made was a tear jerker..
Concentrate on the damage offshoring is doing to America and the misery is brings to people put out on their ass with bills to pay and kids to feed..
Isn't outsourcing just one facet to a many sided beast? There has been a trend in the US in recent years towards value as the consumer wants more and more for their dollar. This has given rise to discounters both on the web and in the form of Wal-Mart. Is shipping a job overseas all that much different from forcing a small retailer out of business with more labor efficient business model? It takes far fewer people to sell inventory at Wal-Mart then it would at a small retail store. If people are so up in arms about outsourcing and it taking away jobs should they not also be looking at their own behavior and how it may be effecting the labor market?
nuf sed
1 -if offshoring is so great, why aren't we seeing corporate executives jobs being eliminated and outsourced? Are they trying to maintain the illusion that only the lower level peons jobs are worth of outsourcing to "save money and be cost competitive", but that their "management" jobs are not?
2--Ask them why average CEO pay is now approaching 1000 times what their entry level employees pay is contrasted with 20 years ago or so when it was around 30 times? Couldn't they maintain the same 30 times level and still be *well* compensated? It seemed to work back then, the "boss class" made more than sufficient money to live comfortably, and the stockholders still made a return.
3- Ask them don't they have any sense of universal social patriotism for their nation, or are they "citizens of the world" who don't really care about their national neighbors? And if so, ask them why they don't pubicly renounce their US citizen ship and take up citizenship in the nations they move their jobs to?
4-ask them why before "outsourcing" became popular, that a single (1) average pay blue collar domestic job, not even a white collar, a blue collar, why that level of pay was sufficient to maintain a home, a car or cars, and a family with several children, that that job in most cases provided a nice insurance package and a pension, that the employee could be given a 2 week paid vacation, contrasted with now, merely 20 years later, it takes two (2) such jobs to maintain parity with that time frame, and in a lot of cases without any of the perqs that existed back then?
5- ask them, and this is extremely critical, WHAT-exactly WHAT do you tell a young person just about to enter the workforce, who is seeing BOTH blue collar AND white collar jobs being outsourced, ask them EXACTLY WHAT that young person is supposed to study or train for. Ask them what sort of "job" they should be specialising in so that they might have a life, WHICH JOBS SPECIFICALLY are not going to be "outsourced"? These CEOs have to remember, when the IT and high tech boom started, it coincided with the dismantling of the blue collar manufacturing jobs, we were PROMISED that these jobs were the replacements, and now THOSE jobs are leaving--ask them-WHAT'S LEFT??? What are they going to LEAVE in the US for jobs in the next one to two decades?
6- Ask them how it feels to not be looked up to as models of success that most previous generations of people granted successful business people, but to be reviled and distrusted by the vast majority of people now, to be not trusted to either be patriotic nor to tell the truth or act in the publics best interest, only their own.
Thank you! That is EXACTLY why I've never understood why people are so interested in major league sports. My hometown's team is neither owned, managed, nor staffed by people from my hometown. So why should anyone give a crap about them?
:)
It's just bread and circuses (which you have to pay for)!
Be happy. Nothing else matters.
Personally, I find it very curious that everyone, who comments on this phenomenon / process or whatever, uses the same type of narrow argument with wacky assumptions style. Before it was only the politicians, that would dump down into sound bite politics but now it is everywhere. So I would like to see some answers that talk about things in an intelligent manner rather these short handed answers that don't illuminate or make the discussion move forward.
"if offshoring is so great, why aren't we seeing corporate executives jobs being eliminated and outsourced?"
It is for the same reason that only a fraction of US jobs have been outsourced: most jobs are done better by Americans.
"Ask them why average CEO pay is now approaching 1000 times..."
Because people are paid the worth of their job. Some jobs are worth more than others on the free market. Next....
"Couldn't they maintain the same 30 times level and still be *well* compensated? "
Why even care? Why should outsiders micro-manage pay levels inside a company? They shouldn't: let the pay be for the value of the work.
"Ask them don't they have any sense of universal social patriotism for their nation"
They might tell you that patriotism does not extend to having some sort of racist hatred for Indians who dare to do some jobs better than Americans.
"And if so, ask them why they don't pubicly renounce their US citizen ship and take up citizenship in the nations they move their jobs to?"
That makes as much sense as having American Toyota buyers renounce their citizenship.
"ask them EXACTLY WHAT that young person is supposed to study or train for."
Have them open up a newspaper. Look at the want ads. And realize that outsourcing affects only a small fraction of the job market.
"Ask them how it feels to not be looked up to as models of success that most previous generations of people granted successful business people, but to be reviled and distrusted by the vast majority of people now"
But that is not true. The outsourcing outrage is a tempest in a teapot: hardly anyone cares or minds. Most do not hate the companies for hiring the best workers even if that means hiring "damn foreigners".
"to be not trusted to either be patriotic nor to tell the truth or act in the publics best interest, only their own."
Those who respect them for not wearing the KKK hood outnumber those who would love them for it.
Shouldn't labor have the same mobility as jobs in a true free market?
Should the U.S. negotiage a "follow the jobs" quid pro quo provision with its WTO trading partners? After all, why should other nations be able to impose protectionist "tariffs" (i.e. visa restrictions) on the import of U.S. workers and yet be free to export as many workers and import as many jobs as possible?
Not sure if it has been posted yet (don't have hours to read the full thread) but has anyone done a comprehensive study beyond what I call the "first level?" The "first level" being the person holding the job, whether on shore or off.
I am talking about the wages that the employee spends around their community. It's not simply a case of the Jones' not being able to keep up with the Smiths because the Jones' job went off shore (or the Vijaypayee's not being able to keep up with the Balasubramanian's because the Vijaypayee's job never came on shore).
It's the Anderson's gas station not seeing the business it used to; it's the local restaurants not seeing the business they used to; it's the housing market dropping; it's the tax base being lower.
Once those wages go offshore, they pretty much stay offshore. And it affects more than just the first level.
That's not true, the market consists of the consequences, but virtually all prices (those not regulated by government entities or coalitions) are indeed arbitrarily set by the seller. That's why we have companies that go out of business (for arbitrarily setting their prices too high), or companies that rapidly increase their marketshare (for arbitrarily setting their prices too low).
And how can you say with a straight face that lowering the price of making the good does not affect supply? That's the very definition of what supply is, how much of something that can be produced for a given amount of money/time.
"I despise that piece of crap Micheal Moore but the above mentioned film he made was a tear jerker"
Moore missed the main reason for the devastation of Flint: the soaring auto worker wages. They climbed without regard to inflation, and without any regard to "what is this dumb rivethead job really worth?". The unions, which Moore so loves, did everything they did to encourage GM to make do with far fewer workers, or find anyone else to pay to work as long as they weren't Flint UAW members.
If the unions do everything to discourage companies from hiring and keeping American workers, don't be surprised if something gives.
Will outsourcing ultimately lead to American corporations becoming shell operations where most workers, including skilled/professional positions such as engineers, front/backoffice workers, and middle management, do not reside in the US and can in few ways ultimately contribute to the economy and tax base?
I fear essentially what will happen is much of the Fortune 500 will become top-heavy with overpaid executives who are garage-saling the entire operation for the sake of "shareholder value" (translation: more mega-billion $$$ bonuses) while the opportunities for American workers logarathmically shrivels to near-oblivion.
Ok... So we are in a transition period. NAFTA / Outsourcing is the wave of the future. But is any CEO or Economist looking at the long term?
Outsourcing makes sense in the short-term 3-5 years. But what about the long term? After the transition?
If you outsource manufacturing and assembly don't you cut out a potential resource? New talent? If someone doesn't have the hard knocks of manufacturing or assembling without an International Airline ticket and a stipend what will happen to *OUR* innovation?
I never hear an innovator say "Thanks to my Harvard Degree I was able to design the new next clothing fad." I tend to hear of someone who worked hands on then found a niche that wasn't being covered and they went for it. If you outsource the lower industries you outsource our innovation. Does this concern anyone else but me? And if so, what is the answer? Strictly for American Defense do you want all of our clothes manufacturing being handled outside of the United States? Would that be our new ration item if we were forced to go to war?
I'm for the long term. But I'd like to know what strategically American Business Leaders want that to be. Right now all I see is a bleeding out of our dollars to other countries with economists worried about deflation. And personally I don't think Business Leaders are knowledgeable or equipped, this is where government should step in and slow the transition for our own stability.
I've asked alot of questions for thought fodder but this is my A#1.
What would 5 conceptual business be in 20 years, and what are supposed to do to get there?
Myself, I think technical communes or cooperatives are the answer but... Right now I only see my class being asked to do the cooperating while the upper 10% are whooping it up overseas. I spent 15 years of my professional life climbing the ladder while working under executives that never understood how to turn on their computer. Now that I have the skills they've outsourced overseas.
I never got my invite to the Hilton B-Day party, did you? Perhaps a cookout hosted by HP and Carly? Naw, she was so vindictive about HP Site Boise not being a cheerleader squad in her battle with HP's Heirs that she's cutting Boise (and other domestic sites I'm sure) whenever she can.
I don't like revolution, but I get the impression the upper CEO's are dolling out the economic equivalent of let them eat cake... More accurately, buy my stuff at inflated stupid rates... Please tell me what I'm not seeing!!!!
"Don't fear death... fear not living..." -me
The only way to solve the integration and process engineering neccessary to support the merger mania of the 90's was to hire IT people at the lowest prices. Especially in banking and the tech industry, itself (cisco eating 40 smaller companies in one year, et cetera.)
The general effect of all those mergers was a fast downturn in stock prices, as huge debt piled up to pay down the purchase prices. Strange effect on wall street, as well, as many investment bankers have been out of work, like amazingly successful programmers, banking themselves out of work.
Companies depend more on IT now than they used to. They need it to run more and more functions. Outsourcing jobs helps them get back on track, financially.
But as the need for better process analysis and customized development increases, you have to have in-house programming and development, or at least get people inside to do work. Any student of analysis knows that not all coding and design iteration cannot develop sensitive mechanisms by video conference.
I find this all hard to iterate in the presence of laid off people, but it's something I don't hear being said.
Here is my question: Suppose a company outsources a division to India. As a consequence of this, sensitive information becomes available to Indian workers. An Indian worker, or workers, take that information and sell it or otherwise exploit it. What is the legal remedy? How can any crime be investigated? How are the Indian workers brought to justice?
Proverbs 21:19
"I would like to point out that most of the starving people dying from malnutrition don't live in countries that have embraced capitalism"
Most of the worst famines have been from the implementation of socialism. Ethiopia? This happened right after the USSR colonized the country. This is just one example. A typical feature of "marxist land reform" is kicking people off their lands onto slave plantations where they are basically punished for trying to succeed in growing good. Ukraine in the 1930s is another example.
is to realize that offshoring isn't done for the sake of offshoring. Offshoring -- and all the other labor practices that we don't like -- is done to not create additional full-time jobs in America. And avoiding that is done for exactly one reason: the absurd and unpredictable costs of health insurance.
The relative costs of insurance, worker's comp, etc, as part of a low- to middle-wage worker are way high. Of course a large company is going to do anything they can to avoid hiring more people.
Fix that, and the rest will follow. (Famous last words.)
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
You just let out the secret that most of the rich are rich due to their own hard work. Despite the stereotype of the trust-fund baby, most of the rich are like Dave Thomas (Wendy's founder) and not Paris Hilton. They are working-class.
Would people still support(buy from) exploitive companies if they were made acutely aware of their exploitive practices? If it became 'fasionably correct' to boycot these products? Would the media doggedly expose the practices of companies such as Nike and risk losing Nike's advertising dollars?
Read up on some Michael Moorefor initial research.
"Also, it's inarguable, if not well-known, that neoclassical economics is fatally flawed and does not apply to the current world economy." Isn't that what they said in 2001, before the crash? New economy eh? Look what happened. Inarguable. hah. Its inarguable that you are an idiot. There... does that make it so?
What benefits can the US expect to see from outsourcing? Will any potential benefits be contingent upon us keeping our status as the technological pioneer of the world? How can we best do this?
If a company has its "official" headquarters in the Bahamas to avoid corporate income tax, its real headquarters in Chicago, where 20 American executives and managers work in a gorgeous high-rise and make millions of dollars a year in salary and bonuses, and 3,000 factory workers in China working for pennies a day in a sweatshop, can you even call it an American company?
Given the fact that the majority of innovation is financed by the US government, not corporations, and only 40% of corporations paid taxes during the boom years of 1996-2000, how does bleeding the tax base dry foster innovation? Wouldn't a better way to provide value to the American people be to give them their money back, with interest?
If you need information on how the government finances the majority of innovation, then you can take a look at this:
1. www.nih.gov. The NIH, otherwise known as the Nation Institute of Health, pays for the majority of research into promising new drugs. Most of the grants provided by the NIH is given to scientists making approximately 30-40K a year (which is strong evidence of the fact that stupendous profits are not necessary for innovation). When drug companies talk about innovation, they are referring to innovating new search technologies (yes, really) that will allow them to search through public research databases even quicker, so that they can then patent the drug and rip off the American public.
2. www.darpa.gov. DARPA, is the branch of the defense department responsible for creating the internet. Control over the internet was then handed over to private corporations in the 1990's.
3. Looking at the history of Telecommunications shows a case of an industry that was given billions by the government, as well as special rights and priveledges to exclusively provide for this needed infrastructure.
4. The US airline industry was also financed largely by the US governemtn. Most US airline companies, such as Boeing, Northrup Gruman, Lockheed Martin, got the majority of their money through lucrative gravy train defense contracts. Despite recent complaints of regulation, the airline industry would likely not exist if it were not for the money poured into it's coffers by big government.
5. Cable is yet another example.
6. The power industry has also enjoyed quite a bit of lucrative profits from regulation.
If we look at the big cash cows of the future, mainly pharmaceuticals and biotech, the majority of it is government funded. If we look at the electronics industry, the majority of the foundation was laid down by the US government. So, my question is, what have corporations done with our money? Where is it? Why aren't they willing to pay taxes to the government and people that have given them so much? Why should the American people let you leave the country without turning you upside down and shaking out every red cent that you have stolen from us?
He should ask if his job is going to be offshored.
I'm serious...
Faz
It took a major trade war with Japan to get them to move production. The cost of trans-pacific shipping is marginal and the difference in the cost of labor is relatively trivial. However, the difference in tariffs for not being at the domestic source quota is very much non-trivial and is stated in 18pt helvetica bold on the sticker. THAT is the number they were trying to reduce by shipping production to the United States.
This was the result of good 'ol American protectionism and nothing more. Re-writing history to make it sound like it was that invisible hand of the free market is rubbish.
covering this very topic at http://www.seattlesinner.com/
"It is a solemn thought: dead, the noblest man's meat is inferior to pork."
listen, happy time harry says, shut the the fuck up you know nothing, murder-islam supporting, fuckheaded pig. shut up. you do not work. you are poor. you are a fucking communist. you support the hordes of murdering islamo-fascists. you are a dangerous man hell bent on deconstructing all that is good for humanity for your own evil machinations.
Here in Canada, (Ontario at least) I'd say there are about a 50/50 split of full-serve/self-serve gas stations. Generally, the full-serve stations are .2 to .7 cents per litre more expensive.
Does a company have a responsibility to sell their products in the country they are made in?
People in the "third world" make most of the things sold through Wal-mart, etc. Do they have access to those things themselves? Should companies make sure their poor laborers are running around in Nike's, playing with Power Rangers view.
- customers of call centres are sometimes zenophobic
- It costs money to provide services to the poor who can't find jobs or the unemployed whose jobs are snatched away. It seems to me to be quite immoral to use cheap overseas labor to provide safety net services to people who are willing to work. We live in an economy that thinks paying minumum wage is too steep of a price of doing business, and should be scary to ALL.
My complaint is that the basis for outsourcing is chasing cheap compliant labor, not looking for the most productive labor. Linux works across borders because people are working towards a common goal, and everyone reaps the benefits. I don't think that companies are using outsourcing as a way to benefit everyone...themselves, the stockholders, the employees (wherever they may be), the customers and yes, even the community...and that is why outsourcing as it stands today is not a good thing.I don't want my bank data offshored. period. I like the protection US law affords me.
Also, as a Southern woman with a Southern drawl, it annoys me to no end that my heritage and upbringing automatically makes me stupid or too cute to handle tough technical questions. I would imagine folks in India must feel this even more, how insulting to spend your nights pretending to be American! I hate talking like a yankee to avoid being teased...I can't imagine that being a job requirement.
My point is this...is outsourcing is so great for the world, why shouldn't companies say, "Look, these guys in India are great and they are cheap and we are going to pass that savings on to you the customer"...instead of pretending the Asian call centers are in Arizona or Texas and pocketing the savings.
www.displacedtechies.com
The boilerplate argument CEOs give for offshoring is "that is costs us less and makes us more competitive". This begs three questions:
(1) What is the estimated overhead rate for employing an offshore worker? This would cover broadband, communications, other sorts of costs in total (i.e. any and all costs of employing that worker that do not translate directly into pay).
(2) Of the jobs offshored for lower salaries... were ANY of those offered stateside at the lower rate? Or did you just assume that no currently unemployed IT worker would accept the job at the lower salary? $18,000/yr is better than $0/yr when you're unemployed. Keep in mind that this differential must take the overhead rate in (1) into account to be a valid comparison.
(3) If the answer to (2) is "no" (as I expect it will be)... why not?
Two questions they may want to ask:
1. Does anyone check the code written by these firms to assure there are no "time delayed" virus in there? Remember that those programs run the economic well-being of major corporations. My guess they'll response with a yes, but in reality no one every looks that closely at the code. Heck the fire the programmers who would look.
2. Where will the find programmers in the future when India gets too expensive for their neighbors nuke them? Remember before the White House bought peace between India and their neighbors by giving them the IT develoment industry, they were close to nuking each other. Students are dramatically dropping out of IT programs in college. Columbia University's IT certificate program use to draw 200 plus candiates to an open house. Now they're happy if they see 10 candidates. Hey, that's Columbia. Wonder how non-Ivy leaguers are doing.
Now, however, it has become virtually impossible to "Buy American" for a wide variety of goods. For instance, consumer audio products: with the exception of speakers, everything has been made overseas for years, and I'm not sure even speakers are an exception anymore. When I say everything, I mean everything: copper wire, steel and aluminum sheet, power supply, capacitors, opamps, RAM, CPU, final assembly. Every DVD drive and player is made in China.
This isn't just a matter of buying an "American" vs. Japanese/European/Korean brand. Even the American makers of a vast array of products have offshored their production.
So, the next time someone wants to make a wise-ass comment about not "Buying American", they can start by inserting my (MADE IN THAILAND) dildo in their anal canal.
Luke, help me take this mask off
That's because us NIGGERS will soon own YOU!!!!
I don't see anyone considering national security implications when outsourcing. There are groups interested in privacy, since tax records and X-ray interpretation is being outsourced.
Consider this, next generation software design is outsourced. To effectively do this, that means cutting-edge hardware specifications are also shipped out to the outsourced site.
From an industrial espionage point-of-view, another entity such as a foreign company or even government, could pay the outsourcing company or companies for information on the technological pipeline. If there is sufficient bribery, perhaps "hooks" or "backdoors" could also be subtlely inserted (a la the Clipper chip).
Lest we think this is only a problem for new MP3 players, many government subcontractors, especially defense contractors, will inevitably outsource design to lowball bids.
I don't think anyone interested in the defense of our country has really thought this outsource problem through.
- Evil corporations are taking our jobs
- Who's watching out for the little guy?
Well, the little guy is technically the family man in India, China, Eastern Europe, etc. that is trying to make his way through life earning a mere fraction of the income that workers in the US make. So, I guess it's the "Evil Corporation" that is looking out for "The Little Guy."Now, I'll be the first to admit that the corporation (which is an orgaization of people) is not offshoring out of some sense of moral obligation, but is in fact the capitalistic system at work, albeit on a newly global scale.
Let's be clear, offshoring is not "taking away jobs", but is simply employing people willing to do the job for less than US workers like to be paid. If US workers were willing to be paid the same as what workers in India are willing to work for, this "Offshoring problem" would magically solve itself. To suggest anything else seems to me like greed of the most misanthropic sort.
If you are against "Sweat Shops", and for "The Little Guy.", you should be 100% behind getting higer-paying, competitive, skilled jobs to people even though they don't live within some arbitrary boundary, and hence fully support the Offshoring movement.
Disclaimer: I'm in the US and an IT worker. If "my" job ends up going to someone with the same skills willing to do it for less money, then I wouldn't have it any other way.
Usage: fortune -P [-f] -a [xsz] Q: file [rKe9] -v6[+] file1
There's a lot of talk about supply and demand of goods, but little about the effects of supply and demand on labor.
Offshoring isn't just about reducing the cost of labor by going where it's cheaper. Many companies deliberatly have excess productive capacity now, spread across several countries. So if one country's or one plant's labor market begins to rise in cost, or irritating environmental regulations come into play, the company can shift to a different market. The effect is that the supply of labor is constantly greater than the demand, and past tactics such as striking or minimum wage laws are no longer effective in reducing a fall in wages.
In countries like China, there is a tremendous gap between rich and poor and the tools that have been used to narrow that gap in the United States are being actively fought against through things like offshoring and the WTO which seek to limit the soveriegnty of nations.
The problem with a huge gap between rich and poor is twofold, outside of the obvious material issues;
First, the gap gives a huge advantage to wealthy individuals in representing their political interests. Freedom of the press belongs to the person who owns the press.
Second, an educated populace is required for a truly representative democracy. A democracy where people don't know what they're voting for serves no purpose. The long term effect of this new competition is to discourage schooling funded by public money and by disinterested parties.Educating janitors so they have a high school education makes sense in a democracy, but not in a competitive free market. Intense competition gives an advantage to those societies which don't give kids too much more education than is required for them to do their jobs.
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
This is a question for each person/group interviewed.
Have you examined both the Short Term and Long Term effects of Offshoring? If so, what criteria did you use, what time ranges were involved and what were your results?
I have yet to see any good quality examinations of the Long Term effects of offshoring - just a lot of hand waving and non-scientific smoke blowing. From BOTH sides.
When you move the intellectual (IT type) jobs over seas there is NO PRODUCT which can then be decreased in price.
How can that be? If the intellectual worker isn't contributing to producing anything that can be sold, why is the company employing him in the first place?
However, that doesn't mean one can't lower their hourly rate to $10/hr and pretend they're an Indian offshoring company.
Looks like everybody's Apu impressions might finally prove to be useful.
"Would you like some beef jerky with your 3-tiered J2EE application?"
there is no +1 scary-because-it's-true
/. after all, capital of self-pity in the digital world
all of hte bluebloods want you to be their servants and America to be their own large private plantation over which they exercise absolute control
kerry and bush are on the same team, but go ahead and whine about the symptoms some more, this is
The redistribution of wealth across the world will only create a problem. Countries with too much money, operating under different leadership and laws will attempt to exert themselves in the name of well-being for their citizens. When the US no longer has the tax-base to support 300 billion a year in defense spending, then the world is going to be a very dangerous place. Combine this fact with the ever growing oild hunger for countries outside of the US that don't follow our same laws around pollution and energy effectiveness, and you can see that we are getting ready for years of horror.
...they are still working class just because they were born middle class..."
If they work, they are working class. The working class includes those who are lower-class, middle-class, and upper-class.
"Would anybody object to the creation of such a program? No, of course not."
I would, as would the millions of people you just put out of work. Fortunatly, your making the mistake of comparing a real world scenerio, to a fantasy one.
Robots:
Robots are a problem that we need a solution for. Jobs have disappeared becasue of robots, if you think other wise, then go look at the areas of detroit that have become crime ridden slums do to the fact that autworkers lost jobs, became poor, and not there children our in a bad postion, financially.
Now, people will say "there where jobs created making the robots." now thats true, but not as many as where displaced, especailly when you start taking into account secondary markets.
Lets say someone invented a fully functional burger flipping robot. Does everything need to operate a fast food facility. The company selling them would be hugh, maybe employing as many as 50,000 people. Now we created 50,000 new jobs, but have displaced every employee of every fast food place. AS an economist, please tell me how putting a million+ people out of work is good for the country?
Finaly, what do we do when we make robots that can make robots?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I would like to see a retrospective history of the previous outsourcing of manufacturing jobs. What has that meant for those displaced workers, the company doing the outsourcing, and the company's customers.
Also, would be interesting to investigate to see if there was any "outsourcing" done from England to the Americas 300-400 years ago.
"Would you like some beef jerky with your 3-tiered J2EE application?"
That would give you away in a heart beat! Most Indian Hindus revere Cows, and regard eating them as blasphemy!
Random gunfire (like they did to the miners in Colorado a hundred years ago?)
Or being beaten to death with a bat (like the poor sap in Italy a few years back or Luxembourg back in 1919?)
The ruling classes in the American Empire are so caught up in their own mythology and enamoured of the power of their weapons, that they don't quite understand that revolutions DO occur, and the results are often unpleasant.
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Say that Company X outsources 2,000 American jobs overseas. This frees up capital for something else. Where is that money goign? R&D? Does the result of that investment yield any more American jobs in the long term? We were all terrified in the early 1990's that Japan was taking over America. The Japanese owned half of Manhattan, LA, and all of the American jobs were going to end up in Japan. The Japanese had a business plan that was quietly endorsed by the Japanense government and we were all screwed. Do you remember the hysteria over this? What happened? Japan's economy has been luke-warm for 15 years. Ours went berserk for about 6 years or so.
I think the discussion on outsourcing has been very one-sided and I'd like to see an honest talk about the reality of business and economics, and not the quasi-religious belief held commonly on Slashdot that we're owed work and benefits by the same evil corporations that we bash relentlessly here.
People of all castes don't have the same opportunities for education, and therefore the untouchables aren't going to have as many sharpies.
Maybe yes to the last - but the others I doubt.
How could you truly enjoy a job when you know that in the US you could make 9x more for the same effort?
Underpaid by design - that can't go down easy.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
Great. How do you enforce this? I regularly consult for friends in the USA/Canada. All transactions so far happened by mail or IM (and usually are paid by barter, consultations from their respective areas of competence). But, given the fact that "import" of so-called "intellectual property" happened, under the tariff radar, untaxed, how would you prove that? If you suggest eavesdropping on mail, I counter with GPG, or Jabber-over-SSL.
Hey, silly, these are questions for the interviewer. You weren't supposed to answer them.
Excellent article.
e pa per/editions/monday/business_0477c95f808391500046. html
http://www.statesman.com/business/content/auto/
One more question: if import of IP is taxed, how to handle mailing lists and newsgroups, where a lot of "property" gets freely exchanged?
And yet, home ownership is at an all time high in the U.S. And I would bet that the percentage of those homes that have dirt floors and/or lack heat, AC, indoor plumbing, etc... is at an all time low. And one-worker households are on the rise (stay at home moms and dads are becoming more common).
Everyone looks at the rich as an example that the American dream actually works. The government (in the pocket of the rich) tells us that the rich need tax breaks too....
Well, 80% of millionaires are first generation millionaires. Looking to them as examples of the American dream seems fine to me. And part of the reason we have to keep making new millionaires is that our tax laws limit wealth transfer between generations. And I'd probably rather work for a rich person (who can afford to pay me more) than a poor one, so I'm not terribly opposed to certain tax breaks for them (also, I plan to be rich at some point, so I'll be taking advantage of those breaks).
You can keep blaming "the man" for keeping you down and waiting and whining for someone to fix it, or you can start doing what it takes to make yourself wealthy (hint: first step is having the proper attitude).
In the future, when the whole world is at one economic level, who will we outsource to then?
Given that US based companies now view the highly trained creative class of workers as just another cost to cut, one wonders about the obvious consequence of this policy, that is, fewer and fewer university graduates in those fields. Prior to the internet boom, & indeed throughout, there was a hew & cry by the tech industry that they couldn't find enough workers. Their solution at the time was to use a little know provision of the GATT treaty called Hib (later popularly renamed H1b) in a manner it wasn't designed. The treaty provides for a maximum of 60,000 workers in this class to come into this country per year, during the hight of the internet boom this number was more than doubled. After the internet boom, when companies were trying to cut costs, the obvious solution was to increase the H1b limit yet again to bring in workers from other countries used to working for less & who carried no school debt to replace home grown workers. Then, as if that wasn't enough, whole departments were moved overseas (after the home grown workers trained them). If this acceleration of creative class job movement overseas isn't stemmed, future students simply won't enter the field. In an article I saw in the WSJ a month ago, Bill Gates was hosting a forum at a university and talking to the Computer Science department. More than one student asked him if there was a future in their field given that so many jobs were being given away locally to H1bs or shipped overseas. Let's hope that these student's concerns don't represent the worst case future scenario, the end of technical development in this country. mcoon
Question: Can Outsourcing Save Jobs in the USA? I am not trying to definitively say yes or know to this question...that is up to those posing the questions to let others haggle over. The one scenario that cam to my mind was this: A firm with previous negative gains for several quarters, struggling to stay competitive and afloat, out-sources to another country. Over the next several quarters the firm begins to show positive gains. In this case, the outsourced jobs were lost, but the rest of the employees in the US still maintain jobs. I guess this is an old case of "do the ends justify the means"?
Even though the problems related to outsourcing rooted deeply in the economy and the society, there is a fundamental change in the philosophy of life! Moreover, since various jobs rely on computers and have less constraint on labor, it effectively put both young and old people in the same market. Thus, the population of the work force is getting larger. Then, will someone complain that jobs for young people are "outsourcing" to elders. At the age of internet, the cost of acquiring knowledge and skills keeps dropping. Consequently, it will be hard for person to earn his/her own living soly on an "easy" skill. The major issue in a modern country is that kids must be taught that it is hard to earn a living! It is always too painful and too late to realize that for an adult.
^(oo)^pig~
In the United States, the conventional wisdom of most economists can be a little baffling to the people facing the immediate lifestyle-management effects of increased offshore outsourcing of white-collar service jobs.
A lot of economists will spin out a line that-- after you strip off all the jargon, and the econoleetspeek--will sound an awful lot like "Quit whining, you slacker, and get a real job."
That's why I recommend Max Sawicky's Guide To Economics Web Sites. He works for The Economic Policy Institute, a "liberal" economics think tank.
It's really easy to find a million clones of Donald Luskin. You can't hardly swing a dead cat without running into economists who will tell you that global free trade in services is unqualifiably good in the short run, the long run and everything in between. It's harder to find thoughtful economists who might have pesky questions about how the mobility of capital can be easily reconciled with the immobility of most labor.
jhw
Hi,
:-)
Sorry for the AC. You'll see why in a moment
One observation about outsourcing in software. When a company want to outsource the first thing that need to identify is work that can be outsourced.
As it is hard to manage a project from eight timezones away, and explain a project to people whose grasp of english is marginal, the easiest work to outsource is something that is thought to be well documented and self contained - initial program development.
Soon your company has no idea of how its products work at all, and lacks the ability to modify or fix them.
Soon you can't meet your customers expectations (like that the product can be fixed in any reasonable amount of time, or that you can give them a fix/workaround) because you are truly clueless about the one thing that is important to your customer - your product.
This seems to be different from outsourcing call centers or manufacturing, where those activities have less impact on the knowledge of a company about it's own products.
When I've discussed this with managers they don't realize how dangerous this sort of outsourcing is for their future - even if they get every financial benefit they hoped for.
Economic darwinism? TANSTAAFL.
1. How much of our national debt and looming deficit will Chinese and India programmers assume?
2. Will the foreign programmers be willing to defend the US against terrorist threats as Americans are expected to do?
3. Will the foreign programmers help prop up our social security system?
4. Given that our national security depends on high tech capabilities, how will we maintain our hedgemony when we give up our expertise to foreigners?
Woverly Harris Gooch, IV CTO American Fire and Bomb, LLC
I18N == Intergalacticization
Even though the problems related to outsourcing rooted deeply in the economy and the society, there is a fundamental change in the philosophy of life!
Since various jobs rely on computers and have less constraint on labor, it effectively put both young and old people in the same market. Thus, the population of the work force is getting larger. Then, will someone complain that jobs for young people are "outsourcing" to elders.
At the age of internet, the cost of acquiring knowledge and skills keeps dropping. Consequently, it will be hard for person to earn his/her own living soly on an "easy" skill.
The major issue in a modern country is that kids must be taught that it is hard to earn a living! It is always too painful and too late to realize that for an adult.^(oo)^pig~
If we had completely free markets, perhaps an equilibrium could be reached faster and in a way that would be beneficial to a large majority.
As labor and trade laws currently exist, we don't have free markets. Tariffs introduce inefficiencies and take the "fair" out of fair markets. There are two significant problems with the words 'fair market' and 'off shoring' being in the same context:
1. Foriegn countries seem to have no problem importing American jobs. However, their immigration laws are not so free. They are not so willing to import American labor. So it really is not a friction free market.
2. OSHA requirements, health care, and other costs to American companies are not enforced when they hire labor in other countries. Should they be? If not enforced, offshoring becomes an easy way to skirt labor laws.
Consider the first point. If an Indian can do the same quality job at $15k/yr as an American for $65k/yr then it may be in a businesses best interest to offshore the job. If $15k/yr is a very comfortable salary for an Indian, and affords a high quality of life, some small portion of Americans might choose to immigrate or at least relocate to India for a while... where it feasible. Removing even a small portion of the talented labor pool from America could keep salaries for those remaining in the U.S. from going into a tailspin.
If markets were truely free. Off shoring might impose far less disruption. Markets are not free.
"Hey Albert, Good luck exploring the infinite abyss."
I would start this documentary with clips from President Carter's vision of the future proclaiming all factory workers will change skills to become information workers. Did the government fail to support this transition and keep us dominant in this arena? Close this segment with a list of govt. agencies outsourcing their IT needs.
...or do we expect the govt. to solve this problem for us?
Next, I would focus on the true costs of outsourcing options. A number of talented people would love to work in an area where the cost of living could shrink the pay/benefits gap. Has anyone tried this method?
What have other countries done to protect their industry and are we doing the same things?
Now, the toughest question - what will people do to help their own economy?
Its not fallacious so much as poorly implemented.
If humans were better at sharing, we wouldn't need money in the first place.
We need to use money because humans suck. And that is why capitolism works so well for humans.
Are you sure you want to live under a world dominant India/China/OPEC axis? Do you think they will promulgate civil or human rights? Would they have done better in Kosovo or even Rwanda? Want to bet on women's rights? Think the UN is too corrupt now?
Is the US a personal danger to you?
I18N == Intergalacticization
....will make you go insane....
Capitalism is built on the belief that individual aspiration benefits the group. This gets translated into "business decisions that increase the profitability of one business implicitly benefit the entire economy."
This is true when an economy consists with lots of small companies. When an economy consists of a small number of big companies, the the rules of the game change a bit.
There always comes a point at which individual ambition can only be furthered by exploiting the group.
Don't take my word for it...did you see that "a beautiful mind" movie? Did you know that the guy in that movie won the nobel prize for saying what I just said?
But don't take his word for it either.
Look at our big businesses, how they have been furthering their bottom line, why law suits against them are so numerous, and the general effect they seem to be having on our economy.
you know it's monday when your read the title as "What Should a Documentary Filmmaker Ask About Your Offspring"
This gets brought up a lot... and yet, I have yet to see more than one or two extremely isolated incidents of anyone "bashing India" in any outsourcing-related discussion. By and large, most of the anger seems to be directed at the corporations responsible for moving jobs to India, who are, of course, American.
It just seems that outsourcing proponents are dead keen on bringing up the specter of racism/xenophobia, regardless of whether or not it actually applies or anything like that....
Sean Daugherty "I have walked in Eternity -- and Eternity weeps."
So, outsourcing is done to improve quality and to conserve cash. Where are those savings redeployed - toward capital expenditures, or is it simply concentrated in the hands of senior executives and shareholders?
... for your fellow neighbors and countrymen does NOT make one a racist. I EXPECT anyone in another country to want the same thing for their own countrymen and neigbors, and I encourage them to do so.
,unemployment has has it's very statistics altered to keep the magic "public" number out of the double digit range, when in reality it is in double digits because they stopped counting people who have exhausted unemployment benefits, and they started counting people who work as little as 3 hours a wekek as "see, they are employed!". That is absurdly disingenous of them, but it showes how far they will go to keep reality from sinking in to the people. They removed fuel and food from the CPI (most places) in another attempt to make our economy look rosier than it is, ie, that inflation is not as bad a sit really is. They use a pull out of their nether region poterntial "rent" for the value of real estate, instead of what it actuall costs. these are carefuly considered lies meant solely to make the overall numbers ti look better, which would "support" the globalists free-but not fair- trade policies.
That is an insulting and erroneous strawman argument oft repeated, never been true. It's a feeble attempt at debate 101 called "changing the subject" or "not answering the real question". In fact, you have directly implied that I myself am a racist because of the potential questions I proposed, despite all the words I have posted previously on slashdot that would show I am a nationalist, but not a racist. You imply that if a CEO was to keep jobs at home rather than exporting them to save a few dollars that that would imply that he wore the "kkk" hat. Sorry, that's beyond lame, and just flat out wrong.
There is a clear cut and distinct difference.
My point is, I feel it is both more patriotic and more economically practical to keep as many well paying middle class jobs inside a recognized structure as represented by these constructs called "nations" as possible. Now if one does not really care, if the concept of a "nation" means little to nothing, then yes, do what you will. that is a viable option, just don't pretend to be patriotic as you stab your neighbor in the back about it, THEN expect him to somehow keep purchasing your imported products.
Exporting well paid middle class jobs means you are also exporting a middle class level consumer unless an identical paying job is immediately right there to replace the lost job. I will guarantee you that this isn't the case now, nor has it been over the past 20 years with the export of industries and the jobs that go with them.. Merely stating "look in the paper" does not reflect reality. there are far fewer jobs now avaialble then there were years past at the same cost adjusted middle class level, and benfits have shrunk, and now there is a most credible worry that pensions already promised will have to be severely restricted or reduced or be simply defaulted on. Again, data, easily verifiable.. That's just data, and the other indicators will reinforce that,here's another, average equity in homes is the lowest level in two generations, debt is the highest
Exporting jobs without *simultaneously* creating rough equal-pay replacements is a short term way for a very few people at the top of an organization to maximise profits, but it will not work for long, and it doesn't "trickle down" to wherever those jobs got exported from. Inm fact, if YOUR job just got exported, you don't get a check that week. That's the reality of it after it's stripped from academic discussion, it's real people losing real jobs and losing their homes, losing a chance at college perhaps, losing a lot. It isn't just a "few" people or some small "fraction", it is in the millions of exported jobs with not near as many created jobs, and of those created, they are on average lower paying with much less benefits. This is a national decrease.
Back in history this concept was studied, analysed and it was found to be wanting, so much so that a term entered our language and culture, it's called "eating the seed corn". You do that, it looks like you are fabulously well off-for a short time frame. Then reality hits hard. It is unsustainable.
Do they have other reasonable choices to make?
If a company's "official" headquarters is a post office box in the Bahamas in order to avoid paying corporate income tax, its real headquarters is in Chicago, where 20 American executives and managers work in a glitzy high-rise for multi-million-dollar pay and bonus packages, and 3,000 factory workers in China labor for pennies a day in a hot, polluted sweatshop, can you even call it an American company at all?
Unless WalMart bulldozed all of the mom 'n pops to build that store, then yes, they have a reasonable choice. You can pay more and have less selection, but you'll probably get better service at the mom 'n pop. That's a tradeoff. WalMart isn't pointing a gun in back of anyone who works or shops there. The union people want the government to step in and point guns.
I would ask, why should this production job be outsourced, when YOUR senior management position is hundreds of times more costly than one in (Russia, India, Malaysia, etc.) and should be flushed out of country if it's really fiscal efficiency you're looking for.
;)
Bet they don't answer THAT
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
Have any of the companies who outsource considered offering a lower salary to a local programmer instead of outsourcing?
If they have considered it, how did it work or why did they reject it?
I remember seeing an article about how during the Cold War, the Soviets were stealing Western technology left and right. So the CIA modified some of the software to put deliberate bugs in it, and let the Soviets steal it. One result was a huge explosion in a Soviet petrochemical plant when the software allowed unsafe temperatures and pressures to occur.
What's to stop terrorists from getting jobs at offshore Indian code shops and putting in similiar deliberate bugs in code intended to be used in the U.S.?
Since the code is closed-source, no one would see the modifications until it was too late.
Now, you can argue that terrorists can get jobs here in the U.S. and do the same thing, but these days employers do background checks on prospective employees. So it's a lot harder to do here in the U.S. Indian offshoring companies are desperate for manpower to serve the huge offshoring wave, and hire pretty much anybody. And they're less likely to care about exploding petrochemical plants in the U.S. than Americans are.
Seriously. Ireland is still ahead of India in American offshoring. Less fuss though isn't there. I guess because they are white guys and certain proportion of Americans labour under the misapprehension they are in some way "Irish" c.f., John Kerry.
You sure can export services. Movies and software are two big obvious US exports. And there are "soft" exports like Coke and Pepsi. Even though the drinks are actually manufactured overseas, profits from them flow back to the USA. Patent licensing is significant and growing.
Even though we make less and less, knowing what to make and how to make it has a ton of value.
You just need to sell as much stuff to the rest of the world as you buy from it. The US does fine in that regard*.
* as for the trade deficit, that's more demonstrative of the value of US investments to foreigners than any lack of exporting from the US. We have a robust export economy.
My video compression blog
I don't see how it is NOT an improper reference. These are foreign companies who are putting billions into the US economy. I don't care when the plants were built - they're still here now. Not to mention that Toyota has expanded their plant capacity, number of shifts, and number of employees in the last two years. Guess whose making a significant number of new GMs?
"Really? Where was pure socialism used? Where was a pure market economy used?"
Pol Pot's Cambodia was about as pure as socialism has ever gotten. But it was not pure; I guess for it to be purely socialist, Pol Pot would have had to start getting REALLY oppressive.
None. A more interesting question is why do you think you're entitled to what another produces?
I'd like the documentarians to consider the difference between outsourcing to an expensive country (ie, Europe) vs. outsourcing to an inexpensive country (ie, india).
It seems that programmers are only mad that they are replaced by someone qualified to replace them when their replacement costs less. You don't see people complain when a company moves their division to a country where the labor cost is similar, such as to another part of the US.
-Adam
I would like to REALLY know why we are outsourcing and the reasoning behind it.
Is it because of the high cost of labor here? Is it because of the lack of skilled labor here? Is it just the latest "management trend"? I would like to see some numbers on each of these topics. For example the cost of hiring cheaper foreign workers - there has to be some overhead involved there. Also, I find it hard to believe there is a lack of skilled labor in this country, but I do believe that there may be a some unrealistic wage expectations (on both sides) for IT work. What is being done to compensate skilled workers (which we value)?
Also, on a related note, am I the only one that thinks that if a local (US) company decides to outsource they should provide the same benefits/working conditions to their outsourced workers and comply with local (US) regulations so as to not take advantage of other labour?
I realize that may be precisely one of the reasons we use outsourcing, but it would be nice to get that question answered.
"I would like to REALLY know why we are outsourcing and the reasoning behind it."
It is because there are some jobs that some people in places like India can do better than Americans. Hiring the best worker is always a good idea.
"Also, on a related note, am I the only one that thinks that if a local (US) company decides to outsource they should provide the same benefits/working conditions to their outsourced workers"
Absolutely not. Let the workers and the companies come to these arrangements themselves without governments artificially inflating things.
None. A more interesting question is why do you think you're entitled to what another produces?
Why? Because I am a socialist, and am thus obsessed with materialism. I believe that the government's prime purpose should be to squeeze the productive class dry to give everything to those who whine and cry "but we are entitled to it!" the loudest.
From each according to their ability, to each according to their greed.
I suggest the real measure of global competition is productivity / price. We should compete because our productivity is higher - not because our costs are lower.
I suggest that in a fair race - the US can out-produce any country on earth - dollar for dollar.
How do we end up losing?
We handicapp our engines of production. The problem is less the mobility of the factors of production - than it is the unequal handicapping of the players.
In the US - production has to bear the cost of health insurance and retirement.
Import taxes do not pay for medicine & retirements.
Sales taxes do not pay for M&R
Labor pays for M&R.
Do the chinese workers pay the same M&R that we do?
As long as the answer is no - the advantage of imports largely is the M&R loophole it creates.
The real truth is that we should decouple all externalities of labor until our labor has no more or less burden than foriegn labor.
This means - end or change unions (begin long conversation)
End or change social security
End or change Medical system
End or change Welfare
Bottom line - Optimize taxation for net GDP. Do not crush exports by taxing production to such a point that outsourcing becomes profitable.
(reread last sentence until peabrain begins to absorb essence.)
Tax consumption - but not to the point that black market becomes significant.
remember outsource only to democracies - the germans do not use the economy we gave them to kill us because - and only because - they don't want to die in a nuclear holocauset. The saud family on the other hand has taken our gifted economy and deprived their people such that they don't give a damn who dies - bomb us if you like - any imaginable after-life is better than this.
Again - only strengthen countries in which the wealth is shared - if not the power.
AIK
My experience has been the opposite. I don't call unless I have a problem that I can't solve myself, of course. Because I have a lot of technical knowledge and experience, when I call it is almost always a very difficult problem. I need technical support for one new product or another we are evaluating several times a month.
I've found Indian tech support people to be far less valuable. Part of the problem is that they have even less support from the American company than the American tech support people did. Part of the problem is that the Indians to whom I have spoken are far more likely to lie about problems they can't solve. Often Americans will say they cannot help me and apologize.
Given that most of the difficulty in writing software is not banging out code, nor even finding and fixing bugs, but rather coomunicating between, and coordinating the work of: programmers, project managers, spec writers, third party vendors, salesmen, customer representatives, etc., all mired in the shifting sands of poorly-understood and changing requirements -- how can it help to put the programmers half a world away?
Not at all - we must simply refactor our finacial system so that it optimizes projected GNP within the context of the projected global playing field.
We must recognize the change in context and adjust the factors which do not project into that change.
Every redneck understands a limited slip differential. If one wheel slips = the limited slip moves the power to the other wheel.
In a limited slip economy - when production slips - you move the burden to consumption.
The burden is healthcare - taxes - and retirement.
Unions very often wrap healthcare and retirement - thus unions must be viewed as a class of taxes.
The point is that in product cycles which are highly mobile - the burden must be shifted to consumption. - Limited slip economics.
Moral 1 Unions are taxes
Moral 2 Tax that which can't move.
AIK
I think this question needs to be asked: A lot of the people who are claiming outsourcing work were originally in the USA on H1B visas, and were shipped back home jobless when the dot-com bubble burst a few years back. I want to know how many of the Indians working on outsourcing projects now were victims of this. I suspect that the number is rather high.
I have four basic thoughts on outsourcing:
I think that all told the economics would generally weigh against the outsourcing of most design tasks, but many upper level managers are too shortsighted to realize it.
Look, I've worked in factories, I've worked in IT.
Rarely does it take more than a couple of days to become skilled at a particular factory operation. Rarely does it take less than a couple of years of experience and education) to become skilled in an IT field.
We've done the work and learned how to do a hard profession. In fact, we never quit learning new technologies as they emerge... school never ends. And we're considered expendable. Of course we are pissed.
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
I'm sure they'll focus on traditional offshoring (the direct export of jobs to another country), but I'd like to see them examine onshore offshoring. My company, and most other consulting companies, are sitting with huge stables of much lower-paid consultants that they bring over en masse to work on specific projects, then ship them off back home. I find this even sleazier than the traditional offshoring -- we ship the jobs overseas, and still perform the work here.
As a web designer developer, work I get can be outsourced or offshored too...it has allowed me to make more money because I can leverage more projects, when before I would have to code them myself...now I just have to manage the communications. Sites like OffshoreXperts.com and other project auction sites are good for this.
Five years from now, the US will look like detroit when the steelmills closed. Five years from now, the DRM that corporations wanted will be everywere. Five years from now the land will be plundered, and barely livable, because corporations got there way with environmental laws. Five years from now the health care system will have destructed, because everyone in the health care chain wanted a bigger piece of the pie than their neighbours. Five years from now creativity will be practically dead in the US, because patents, and copyright abuse by corporations have decimated the industry. Five years from now, the US will be ill prepared for diseases, and terrorism because our government has squandered our tax money. Five years from now we will have natural disasters like we always do, but they will be worse because we haven't learned our lessons from the previous disasters, and can little afford the cleanup costs, of the disaster, and to correct the situation. Five years from now, all the ways we've decided to cheap out from food, to housing, to health, will come back to bite us big time. Five years from now, we will look back and say "Ah the good old days".
Need I say more?
"All a company owes you is your paycheck. Anything more and you are trying to apply socialist mores to a capitalist system."
And yet when you go into the interview they ask you questions like "what do you see yourself doing in ten years?", and will not hire you because you're "overqualified" and might leave them for another company. Or worse will not hire you because you're "too old", like you're no good anymore.
In other words companies practically demand loyalty from their employees (and potential employees), but all they show you is the door with little to no explanation, at their whim.
If there were no immigration issues and relocation of family was not a problem, would they prefer to live in India at xK/yr.(per the average developer in India) or in the U.S. for whatever the equal position pays here?
I am curious how many would prefer to come to America and compete for the reduced number of jobs, or stay in India and work the outsourced jobs.
I've met plenty of Indian developers in the U.S. who are more then willing to stay in the U.S. and fight for a job, then to move back to India and work the outsourced jobs.
India does not have an unlimited pool of educated workers, if India was forced to compete to keep their top producers in India, it might raise the cost of employing good Indian developers and eb the flow of outsourced jobs. Maybe the U.S. should open the gates to Indian laborers and let them compete for jobs here.
But then again, I am willing to bet that the people crying about their job going overseas would be even more upset about having to compete for their job here in the states against a foreign worker. I suspect the real issue is not the outsourcing of jobs, but the lack of willingness, on the part of American developers to really compete for their jobs... period.
I know that there are plenty of sad stories of people who would sell their soul to compete for their job, and may even be much more skilled than the developers their job was outsourced to. But, it may be that they are the exception and not the rule. Most of the people I know that have been out of work for a long time, are not willing to really compete for a new position or have never had the thought that they need to be competitive, so they are out of luck when they no longer have a job and have no real way to sell their value to an employer.
What do you do to stay competitive and be the best resource for your employer? Do you generate more in revenue than your employer pays you? How concerned are you about the money that your company lays out for you and your team? Do you do everything that you can to increase the profitability of your company, or do you simply expect to be payed based on the "market" for your skill-set?
I'm not putting this out as some thought-out argument, I'm just throwing random thoughts out there for discussion.
Just my $.02
"Perhaps most amazingly, votaries of 'diversity' insist on absolute conformity." -- Tony Snow
The problem is not as much an over-investment in non-merit expeditures as it is the failure to allocate immobile costs (social costs) to mobile streams of revenue (production).
Consumption taxes must be considered when production taxes are subjected to out-of-network competition.
(Reread until peabrain begins to smell the coffee)
Unions are a euphamism for production taxes - they provide a revenue for social costs but they do not (yet) allow for limited slip taxation - that is the tranfer of load from the mobile side (production) to the immobile side (consumption).
If unions could close the loop on consumption - they may have more relevance in a global context. For example - if union workers at windstar corp - a producer of wind energy - agreed to consume only windstar energy - that would be a relevant union. If construction union workers agreed to purchase homes built under union contract. If Trucker union workers agreed to buy food anywhere but walmart. If - and you get the point. Unions to be meaningful in a world in which they are not - must create a closed economic exchange - presumbly a private currency.
So they would be paid minimum wage in dollars and the rest in UNIONOES. Unionoes can only be traded with compatible union entities. (Enter black market in laudering unionoes outside walmart.)
That may have seemed a tall order years ago - but now - it may seem less of a tall order than convincing republicans to give a damn about labor.
I think that labor has cut its own throat by the practice of partisanship. Entities which remain politically agnostic can impact politics much more than partisans - since both sides take partisans for granite.
AIK
The biggest welfare program in the world right now is the US military. Stability is the first form of currency. We are paying huge for stability in countries which would otherwise not attract our capital resources. Thus the corporations exporting jobs to india are the beneficiaries of the stability entitlement program known as the military complex.
--there comes a tipping over point where "service" doesn't equate any sort of rational national economic model. We can't all do each others laundry and call that an economy. that's what we are being told now though. We don't need manufacturing of tangibles, now we are told we don't need manufacturing of IP or intangibles. Huh? what's left?
And "insourcing" is just as bad when these service jobs are being given to highly illegal "insourced" laborers who are willing to live in situations that haven't been seen much inside the US in decades in any numbers, ie, literally 12 adults and children to a single bedroom apartment, etc. The two phenomenoon need to be looked at at the same time. All my labor is in danger of the later, wheras most of slashdot is in the former, in outsourcing, but I assure you it is both.
Every outsourced middle class job means we've outsourced a middle class income which means we've outsourced a middle class consumer. Unless it is replaced at the same time with an *exactly level economic strata job*, it results in a net-loss in GNP, and there is no way to escape the math, especially for the one who's just lost their job.
I don't think there's any question that over outsourcing is a bad idea, I think the question now is where is the tipping over point into utter economic chaos and collapse. I think it is much closer than most people want to think about, because they are scared, and are living in denial, cognitive dissoanance is the term. I had the same exact arguments with white collar people well over ten years ago, they thought their jobs were "secure" forever,that it didn't matter if we outsourced traditional industries. I called "bogus' On that then. Now these same people are nervous, as wellthey should be. A lot are beyond nervous, they got hit, some more than once now. Look at this article and the discussions on slashdot all the time, it's REAL. Now they will admit I had a point. I was right then, and I'm right now. All the signs are there for it to occur, for it to get much much worse here in the US. The middle class is going to dramatically shrink, the lower class is going to dramatically rise in numbers, the very upper classwillshrink in numbers but those there will become even more wealthy and powerful, and the POWER is what they are after, not just the "more money", thesepeople want power overr other human beings, to recreate feudalistic structure. that's the part people will REALLY not want to admit to, but you can see it happening now, there exists an "above the common laws" class already, you can quite easily see it.
The "roaring 20's" gave way to 20 years of extreme poverty, despair and property and social advances lost, only partially regained with major world war which in itself wasn't worth the cost in terms of human despair. And yes, the primary reasons of WW2 were from the global economic depression brought on by the "something for nothing" over-exuberance and the theory that stock trading alone somehow equates "wealth production" the extraordinary failure of roaring 20s economic model that was dramatically attempted again in the 90s. People will NOT learn from history, they usually repeat the same mistakes, just using different levels of technology.. Not ALL the reasons I wish to say to the historians here, but certainly one of the primary factors for ww2 was a fialed global economic "system" run by hereditary feudalists for the most part and the globalists of the day..
History WILL repeat itself I am afraid. Cycles in man's history are valid points of reference. boom-bust-belligerence or false prosperity and greed, giving rise to economic collapse and deapair leading to finger pointing and warfare, because at that point only looting ion a national scale is in any way productive, if you can call theft and murder productive. it's a way for the traditional money powers to absolve themselves of the blame. It's easy for them to pull off, too.
We have much more efficient ways of killing people now. Much more efficient. The next time
LOL, we didn't get to the moon - or defeat the Nazis, build a real democracy in Germany, and liberate France - by working 35 hours a week and taking long lunches. Just remember what a little piece of hell all of Europe would be right now if it wasn't for American might and will, followed by setting things right with yet more of our capital (Marshall Plan, NATO).
All you Euros with inferioirity complexes call anything any American says about his country "nationalism." It is a plain fact - not fantasy - that the United States' economic might puts it in lone superpower status.
It is also a fact that any economy built on socialism is doomed. It might not happen today, or tomorrow, but socialism will collapse under its own flawed premises - one of which being the lack of incentive. Take away the incentive (i.e., profit, upward mobility), and nobody wants to work. "You mean, I get paid the same no matter what I do? I can just drink vodka? Cool!" Great for productivity.
a lot of personal earnings in the US are consumed by the cost of health care which is a standard benefit for citizens of other nations.
The idea of personal freedom - so foreign to those who live in nanny states like yourself - also comes with personal responsibility. Many middle class Americans choose to spend hundreds of dollars on cable channels and cell phones and car leases instead of paying for health insurance (the poor have Medicaid). Again, their choice. But I've seen what sociaized medicine does for patient satisfaction and choice: Canadians come to the US for treatment, not the other way around. I say with absolute honesty and confidence that if I were bleeding or sick, I want to be in an American hospital taking drugs made by America's for-profit Big Pharma.
And you eurosocialists don't live in a vacuum. I wonder what your socialist utopias would do without American drugs sold under your price controls - underwritten by American citizens paying five times the price in American pharmacies to pay for your drugs. THAT'S where a lot of Americans' personal earnings are going, paying for YOUR health care.
Rather than shouting "nationalist," I would rather you just say "thank you" and be on your way.
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
of what they [the executives] are doing? Would executives feel differently if "management talent" were outsourced or offshored by shareholders? Do executives believe (as the CEO of Nike does) that US workers no longer want to program? And do they really (honestly) believe that there is a derth of talent in the US?
How far in the future do executives think? What is the current definition of "long-range"?
.. please, japan had MUCH higher tariffs on US cars, and also much more intrusive inspection at the docks procedures. this is just data, a google search will reveal it. And in the 70s they exported cars at lower than production cost. this concept is called dumping, and is a pretty raw deal on the domestic industry it is hurting. and granted, US automakers needed a cluestick or three on quality, I know, I was in the UAW back then when the import flood began and NEITHER the management nor the rank and file had much of a clue then, sad to say. Japan was and still is much more protectionistic than the US, and so is China. We charge much less % tariffs for chinese imports than they for US imports. That's why I support "fair" trade with exact-equal quid pro quo tariff structures, rather than "free" trade which is always some convulted formula that only results in governmental bureaucrats being bribed off.
I think they should also talk to the customers of the companies who sent jobs overseas about their experiences pre and post offshoring.
My personal experience, with Dell and HP support, is that offshoring leads to terrible customer support.
I think you're answer 3. is the achielles heel.
Not sure - but we are probably headed for an ENRON class explosion in some outsourcing operation.
HEADLINE:
raid in bamm arrests 2 billion indian typists for making personal purchases from credit cards numbers they collected at work.
HEADLINE:
President Cheney's heart xrays appear on the internet after routine checkup at St Mary's.
This is a reasonable argument that runs into a crucial problem, which is that pharmaceutical companies spend more money on marketing and management than they do on R&D.
Sometimes I wonder if much of the pharmaceutical industry should be required to be non-profit. Or maybe the R&D/patent holding part should be split off from the manufacturing/sales part; the first would be required to be non-profit, and sustain itself through a combination of private donations and patent royalties (with compulsive licensing), while the second would be allowed to be for-profit.
(One of the problems is that R&D and manufacturing for drugs are possibly not cleanly separable; part of the research that goes into drugs is how to make them cheaply...)
Are you adequate?
My big issue with outsourcing was to do with more general issues. Like the exceeding boudaries of companies that know no national borders. If the purpose of currency and money that is coined by our government is to promote a free market in that nation, and the purpose of that free market is to strengthen the nation. Then what purpose does outsourcing have in strengthing the nation? My view is that there is none. This is about greed vs national strength. By allowing companies to outsource they are weakening the nation, its philosophically no different then selling secrets to other countries for money. The end result is that it compromises the saftey and well being of the members of that country. If this trend continues the world will know no national borders, a unified currency will have to exists, world court will have to be in place to regulate and police trade. This is really setting the stage up to undermine national sovernty.
The game of socialism is to "make the government pay for everything" - while simultaneously buying things in such a way as to avoid contributing to "the government"
Make "Unions and employers" pay for education, medicine, retirement, and lazy people - while shopping walmart for deep discounts on chinese labor.
ANSWER
labor is outsources because the tariff on imported labor is less than taxes on domestic production.
(taxes includes all social costs tied to production - Unions are taxes)
The solution - tax consumption.
AIK
Slightly off topic, but good to think about when outsourcing is on the table.
1) Lack of understanding of the project or not actively involved in the project strategy and direction.
2) Project does not meet the strategic vision of the company. If business needs are not clearly defined, it will result in a project that does not add value to the bottom line or enhance business processes.
3) The controlling of scope creap.
4) Lack of experience and/or the required qualifications.
5) Incomplete project scope. No clear definition of the project's benefits and the deliverables that will produce them.
6) A project plan that is non-existent, out of date, incomplete or poorly constructed and just not enough time and effort spent on project planning.
7) Insufficient funding and incorrect budgeting are major reasons why projects fail. Projects not delivering their goals, quality, and objectives for the cost.
8) No formal project management methodologies and best practices aligned to the company's specific needs are used to assist project performance. Companies do not want to invest in best of breed methodologies that will benefit the bottom line over a period, with projects delivered within budget. Companies do not recognise the value of using a methodology to support and enable them to record their own best practice project results for future reference, and to build a knowledge base within the company.
any more?
How many "major" projects have these companies outsourced?
How many of the outsourced projects were/are completed?
How many of those failed?
First off, patents are incompatible with free markets. Argentina (you know, South American country, hardly has two nickels to rub together) developed their own AIDS vaccine but weren't allowed to send it to Africa for patent reasons. When they rumbled about going ahead and doing that anyway for humanitarian reasons (on one hand, "dirt poor" and "humanitarian" are uneasy bedfellows; on the other, it wasn't going to be a huge drain even on Argentina and the need is great; on the gripping hand, it happened regardles) the US intervened, telling them that trade sanctions would be applied. Free market, my ass.
Second off, limited patent protection (not the biggest-lawyer-wins multi-decade rort we have now) is sometimes necessary to get a new idea to market.
Third off, in the real world human nature will distort and destroy anything like a free market (/ME waves to William Henry "Trey" Gates III, Pharmacea-Upjohn, General Electric and a few of their mates), so some ground-rules are needed, and some intervention to enforce them is also needed.
Free markets are a nice ideal, but incompatible with reality. The best we can hope for is a simple and evenly-enforced intervention policy. Not a lightly enforced one: the penalties for violation should be devastating, in order to stop punters from treating cheating as just another business risk.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
If a CEO makes $10M/year and the top 5 officers of the company make $2M/year each, those six jobs cost your company the same as 200 $80K/year jobs or 400 $40K jobs (taking into account benefits and such). Have the top 6 people in your company had as much bottom line impact as those 200 or 400 additional people would have?
Seems to me that outsourcing the lowest paid workers in a company is akin to swatting flys, why not go for the increased capacity / new development instead of the retracting and cost savings?
Why not outsource the CEO and upper managers of a company?
This would provide two benefits:
1) As mentioned 200-400 more people to do actual work
2) A highly motivated management team... Imagine the incentive profit sharing would have on this group!
Will be paid to which govt?
Oh, over there. Yeah, OK.
That will not flow back.
And the rent? Food? Are those going to flow back? Doubt it. Not in any appreciable amount.
The rest? Who knows. If 100% of that flowed back ( and it wont ), where would that put us?
In the mean time, I guess I just declare bankrupcy, and go on the dole? That helps, thanks!
emt 377 emt 4
There's a large mall a couple of miles away. It's in the middle of a business district. You can go in any direction not too far and it's all commercial buildings of all different types... There are nearby supermarkets, automotive supply stores, hardware stores, video game stores. However, it only just opened, so we'll see what the detrimental effects may be.
But I will tell you this again: the store is PACKED, and it's not packed with just people in beat up old cars, it's packed with all sorts: people driving everything from old pintos to brand new Lexus SUVs.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
Just how many jobs have been outsourced?
How many people have lost jobs due to this?
How many have gained?
What is the aggregate dollar amount of these salaries?
How much money is flowing overseas?
What is the actual gain that these companies have seen? ( total, per share, per kdollars of salary reduced )
Do these companies pay dividends?
What increase in dividends due to outsourcing?
Who holds the shares in the companies involved?
The additional profit made, what was done with it, if it were not made available as dividends?
What is the tax revenue "hit" from this? Federal, state and local.
What actual jobs were / are created?
Follow some of the people who were layed off due to outsourcing. What have their experiences been? How long to find another job? Did it pay as well? Did anyone lose a house, car, etc, etc?
Follow the companies doing the outsourcing, what gains do they expect from this? How is it benefiting them?
What is the cost ( to society included ) and what is the benefit?
emt 377 emt 4
You have hit the nail on the head.
...)
The "Walmart" economy is not a self-sustaining
economy, because of the shrinking middle class.
This model only works for 60 - 70 percent of
the inverted bell curve of declining purchasing
power, after which it will collapse.
Only so many people can work in the trades
and professions that don't get out-sourced.
The "cream" of these don't shop at Walmart,
anyway.
As more illegal aliens enter this country
(which has increased by 40% since 9/11/01),
even many of the professional trades jobs
will be lost to those willing to work even
more cheaply here.
The three tiered social strata that was
America will melt away into a two tiered
strata that will more closely resemble
Europe in the Middle Ages: the very small
and powerful privledged class, and the
peons.
The disparity of income between the rich
and the middle class in America has widened
significantly since the 1970's. If you
compare the CEO salary and perks in today's
economy between the EU, Japan, and America,
the American CEO's compensation is obscenely
greater.
Only when shareholders insist on out-sourcing
the American corporate elite will the trend
moderate.
IP protection, job conservation, and the preservation of societal values must be
enforced through legal governmental means,
since the corporate fatcats refuse to consider
these factors. NAFTA is flawed (as well as
structural problems in the WTO), because the
regional/national societal values are not
part of the equation of trade equality.
If working conditions, hours of labor, pay
scale, ability to organize, health care,
and environmental issues were factored into
all trade negotiations, the "playing field"
would be much more level.
(Just my depreciated $00.02 worth
If this is true (and its not), then perhaps you explain how its possible to take more out of an economy than you put into it.
Doesn't the fact that outsourced projects involve a statement of work and a contract make any comparisons of success or efficiency impossible? For example, where I work, internal software developers are at the mercy of sales, product management and often must work with poor requirements, impossible deadlines, and insufficient staffing. An outsourced project has all of this negotiated up front, so is at a *huge* advantage. If I could tell the non-technical parts of my company, "Ok, I'll do that project, but I'll need 3 more people and 6 more months, and written requirements", I'll bet I could compete a lot better. Also, the outsourced projects I've seen have been made successful partly by the (undocumented) time spent by regular employees "training" and "helping" the offshore people.
the biggest deal now is the gumbo all these international investors have gotten themselves into supporting us government paper and relying on the frn as the default world trade currency. They kept propping up the dollar, while at the SAME time watching the US outsource industries and actual productive wealth. Now they are stuck with the puzzler how to remove their "investments" which are losing ground daily without completely losing them all, as a panic would hurt all of them. Japan two weeks ago or so stopped protecting the dollar, they just can't afford it anymore, it's beyond even the importance of having the US as a market. When your domestic prime rate is..basically nothing, and you've run out of government make-work work, you need to step back and think on things some...
rock/hard place for everyone, IMO the keynesian numbnuts have screwed the pooch all over the planet
ps, I am a bit chem shy today, which compound does your sig represent?
The president today revealed that foriegn policy for the last six months has been dictated by BamTypeCorp of India which threatened to release the bank account numbers of all cittibanki customers if its demands were not met.
Even if its only the president of a major bank - there will be an embarrasing situation which results when people outside the reach of our laws are allowed access to data which is presumed to be protected by law.
AIK
Nice cherry-pick of economic numbers there, John Kerry. I don't think your hours worked GDP numbers tell the whole story. For example, we have much higher overall per-capita numbers. If you think an economy should be judged on how much leisure time a nation's peoples have, well we will never speak the same language. France has been around a lot longer than the US, but we produce almost nine times its overall GNP. What about growth? Innovation? Employment? (France and Germany's unemployment numbers are almost twice as high!)
The bottom line is there is trouble in both of your socialist paradises: France has been racing toward a free-market economy to the point where it is becoming merely a very heavily-taxed capitalist economy, and your vaunted 35-hour work week has been killing the economy:
Germany's economy has been in the crapper for years, and its latest numbers look weak. And it seems your socialist welfare state has some outsourcing problems of its own:
Further,
And
Oops! Looks like this socialist utopia is collapsing under its own weight. Your socialist economies just can't compete in a free world market, something that even China and the Russians are coming around to. Pretty sad your two shining examples of socialism are invalidated by the fact that their economies suck!
``The reason that we go more to India and those countries is we get highly skilled young people in a flexible labor market for cheap prices,'' said Henning Kagermann, 56, chief executive officer of SAP, in an interview at the Cebit fair in Hanov
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
The man behind the website Acts of Gord (stories of a video game retail/rental store) has done this, and talks about it in his forum
Default assumption: you've been bamboozled by a generation of corporate media / right-wing propaganda. You have no idea about "discrimination against the rich" because your only chance at joining the rich yourself evaporated when the dot.com boom went off and the paper options you "earned" with your overpriced html "coding" gig went down with the ship.
The burden of proof is on you to prove that you have the slighest clue as to what you're talking about.
Hint: if there was serious discrimination against the rich, why are so many people trying to join the "mistreated" class?
Hint: Find a First World nation with a national-level tax rate lower than that in the USA.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Whether the profits are real or simply based on misunderstanding of labor cost components (hint: in a decently designed product, labor cost is the least important component) or fraud really doesn't matter.
The investment analyst community, practically none of whom have management or production experience or other areas of expertise needed to evaluate what's really going on with a company likes outsourcing. They're also the same people who told us that "the long boom" had superceded economic cycles and that dot.coms would lead us into a glorious economic future. They are also still the group who influence stock prices most. So they're going to give "buy" recommendations to companies that outsource... run the numbers? Get serious, they wouldn't know what numbers to run even if they had interests other than pumping stock to investors who know no better.
By the time any damage to the corporation's assets or cash flow that outsourcing enough of their core processes to allow the creation of new foriegn competitors can happen, the current generation of CEOs will have cashed out and retired, leaving future CEOs and any investors who didn't know when it was time to bail holding an empty bag.
I expect most of the Fortune 500 to be Indian by 2020. The ex-outsourcing companies won't have much of a choice, their options will be to let the US put them out of business by moving to cheaper countries or to decide that since American CEOs no longer add value to a product and a customer base they no longer have day-to-day contact with, there is no reason why they should content themselves with taking profit based on labor costs when they can take all the profit.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Back when I was involved in electronics manufacturing design and cost analysis about 10 years ago, the rule of thumb I was using was "under 10% on a high-volume product assuming good design and manufacturing practices" and that the way to improve this is via better use of automated manufacturing processes from which one also gets higher product quality and lower rates of warranty repairs. These manufacturing processes are best supervised by trained / skilled / expensive workers, because if one person is supervising the construction of 1000 units per hour, either he does so competently or he's a net loss to the company whether he's paid 5 cents an hour or $500/hour.
The rules don't seem to have changed since then, other than lower cost and better manufacturing technology. The "cheap labor" fad is what's changed the situation.
I am prepared to take what you have to say seriously when you are talking about video compression.
Tech Public Policy stuff
"Obviously you've never price checked Wal-Mart products"
I have, on several specific items. Not with Target, but with K-Mart. K-Mart seemed to cost about 30% more.
No, we need money because it's more efficient for each person to produce a lot of a few things. There is a limit to how many chickens, bushels of soybeans, tires, and lunches one person needs.
The town grocer or utility worker needs only a few tires a year, but the tire salesman needs a lot of their products each year. The tire salesman sells a few tires a year to many people, but he can't keep and distribute an inventory of chickens, raw soybeans, restaurant coupons, stamps, office supplies, fertilizer, seeds, meat, fish, salt, guns, or ironwork.
He accepts money from customers so he can use money to buy what he needs, and the customers accept money from the people who buy their stuff. And he can save money for retirement, rather than saving enough chickens to provide for his retirement in an RV.
Socialism really does equal communism. Marx himself used the terms interchangably. The USSR was a communist country, but its 15 "states" each had socialist in their name.
"I don't remember socialism involving "To each, death according to the master's need.""
Then you don't remember Fidel Castro, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, and the other great socialist leaders.
Would I learn anything about a topic by asking Slashdot?
The vast majority of money that goes into an economy goes in in the form of capital expenditures, or purchases of resources and intermediate goods. On a product which has a 10% profit margin, that means 90% of the money spent in making that product goes into acquiring intermediate goods, raw materials, or labor. To put this in perspective, if you look back at Toyota, their SEC filings for 2003 state $126 Bn USD in gross revenue, but after they pay the bills they only had $6 Bn in profits. That $120 Bn stayed in the respective economies (or simply, the global economy).
What you and other critics of free trade seem to miss is that participation in a global economy ultimately benefits everyone. The US may export some jobs and capital, but they also export goods. At the same time, we import jobs and capitalj, and those imports (Foreign Direct Investment) benefit us - particularly in times like these when the low dollar gives foreign investors more purchasing power.
How is this not a zero sum game? That goes back to resources - human kind still hasn't come close to exploiting all the natural resources of this planet, and by some estimates we never will. New technologies, unfound reserves of raw materials, and more efficient production methods (not to mention new products) cause economies to grow. Your assertion that a company like toyota simply takes money out of our economy ignores the idea that toyotas domestic production increases the output of mining (raw materials), farming (gotta feed workers, gotta produce grain alcohol for gasoline additives), and ranching (Lexuses require leather).
You still haven't shown in any demonstrable way how Toyota could possible take more out of the economy than they put in. THAT notion would require domestic resources and intermediate goods to have a very low market clearing price, or toyotas goods to have outlandishly high margins (average new car margins are 5 to 10 percent).
Mod parent up!!!
1) factory workers rarely go off and start their own factories in their garage, but engineers do. isn't it true that american policy should try to prevent the loss of engineering jobs because they will result job losses now, but in the long run america loses business opportunities. in other words, the next microsoft, oracle, or google is likely to be owned, run, and taxed in india.
;-)
2) isn't the globalization trend, including the loss of manufactoring jobs, a huge security risk? what if we go to war with china? where will get our stuff? we don't have the infrastructure to manufacture it ourselves? or is globalization going to bring world peace?
-A lot of software development for the US is done in Canada. Is that considered to be "offshoring"? Should work that is "offshored" to Canada, Mexico or other future NAFTA partners be subject to the same trade restrictions that are being proposed for India and China?
-What about small scale offshoring? I'm a Canadian living in Canada and I do software piecework for a friends company in the US. Over the last 7 years, this has added up to tens of thousands of dollars that have been earned by me rather than by an American. What is the scale of small scale piecework, how has it grown, and what are the longer term economic effects of this sort of movement? Are there even any statistics on this?
My perspective comes from Oregon, where we're in effect ending a 20-year experiment in equalizing per-pupil funding across the state, and reverting towards the Portland area maintaining school funding with local taxes while school funding is cut elsewhere in the state. Good for my kids, but bad public policy.
I think teacher's unions are overstated as both a cause of and a solution to education problems.
Money doesn't solve everything, but money can make things easier, and is better to handle from a policy perspective. I also think that school choice, charter schools, vouchers, etcetera are also good things to explore. This is the stuff the teacher's unions are largely wrong about in my opinion.
But, in the end, students in a poor area need more funding than in rich areas, since they need more enrichment, after school programs, teacher to student ratio, hot meals, etcetera. I want to both public schools in marginal areas and prep school, and I can say that for kids from troubled socioeconomic backgrounds, robust school programs can do a world of good. Kids with engaged, non-stressed, economically stable parents do pretty well either way.
I agree with teachers that higher teacher pay will make the profession more enticing. I disagree with them about seniority v. merit pay - paying better teachers more helps encourage development. And certainly it is too difficult to get rid of a poor teacher in most places. I think paying teachers in poor districts a substantial "hardship bonus" is a good idea, since those kids can be a lot more challenging to teach.
My video compression blog
An example on Slashdot today (see the article here) shows that outsourcing can work against company's wishes, too...
Of course examples of how outsourcing can work against the government are a dime a dozen...
>After the issues of Company profitablity are discussed then get down to the other issues.
>[2] Do you meet the US EEOC requirements in the employement of all of the Outsourced employees? >(Age Sex etc discrimination) Most Outsourcing actually is a masquerade for some form of racism or sexism.
or ageism.
gewg_
Fuck you in the ass you commie piece of shit.
Here let me help you do the math, It is called a trade deficit . .
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That means that we are sending more of our money overseas
than we are producing and shipping overseas receiving money
The value of the US dollar is falling like a kite made with an anvil.
This is considered a MAJOR issue by economists, This is a "All Time Record Trade Deficit"
Roughly half a trillion dollar trade deficit for FY 2003
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/13/natio
When all potentially high paid jobs are outsourced then the majority
of the country will be making minimum wage
With the preposed increase in taxes, how will anyone be able to
afford a home and a car , and insurance , and health care, etc etc
Are you some kid that the parents are paying for your college
eduction, or just the recepient of unearned wealth from ppl
that came before you in some mannner ???
If they can import ppl to do tech work, they can import ppl to do ANY job
Those countries have ever job we have here, they do the work
there, they can be brought here and do it for less , and pay no US taxes
The L1 visa, the H2 visa are all unlimited, and the corporate
greed wants to flood the country with cheap scab labor , and lay off every single US worker
Ppl in other countries post "yeah ! screw the americans ! "
Your hate is apprecaited, make sure and let us know you ya feel
The next time the germans or whoever take over your country we will send you a get well card
I say we need to recall all our government officials like they did the governor in california
I am not saying elect Ahhh-nold, but we have a bunch of lawyers
running our country who are more crooked than some of the ppl we
have locked up in prison . We have a bunch of corporate crook sell outs in DC
After the DOT BOMB bust they voted like 97 - 1 to double the H1-b visa worker cap to near 200,000 per year
All due to a fraudulent document put out by the ITAA http://www.itaa.org/
Noman Mattloff of UC Davis , a professor , took them to task and
laid it on the line and wrote an article calling them what they are, crooks
http://www.vdare.com/pb/matloff_h1b.htm
I repeat, any and all jobs in the private sector can be outsourced.
If they outsource all the jobs they can, we will fold like a house
of cards, and that is what they want
As great as Rome was, its demise was rather quick, and like
Rome fell, the US is now in decline
I live in a back water state that is not very technically
enabled after travelling the country during the DOT COM boom
The state is oklahoma , even here in 1 of 77 counties in the
state, they are foreclosing on almost 200 houses per month
http://www.oklahomacounty.org/sheriff/SheriffSa
This is one of the byproducts of outsourcing, no job , no money,
no money , no house payment , no house . "Feel the Love"
Glad I saw this greed festival coming back in 1998, and ratholed every damn dime . Enjoy the ride !
Peace !
Ex-MislTech
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
It's absolutely correct that the comparative advantage of economies changes over time, and economies generally become stronger in more skilled labor as they grow. For a very simplistic example, South Korea was primarily making low-cost goods like clothing after the war; then they were making cars and steel; and now they are the leading maker of DRAMs and a leader in semiconductors more generally. The standard of living has consistently grown over the years, supposed "exploitation" in the early years notwithstanding, to the point now where South Korea is a member of the OECD and has the highest utilization of broadband internet in the world.
Right after the war, yes, Korea did participate in the so-called race to the bottom - but it was the only way to get their economy moving again from a dead stop. By growing low-skilled industries first, they were able to lay the foundation for high-skilled industries that dominate now.
What is happening with IT outsourcing is simply another example of this trend. It's definitely disruptive for the economies of countries losing high-skilled jobs, and it raises important questions about whether it should be encouraged via tax breaks (as Sen. Kerry is pointing out in the campaign) and about the quality of public education required to keep competitive. But to suggest that it's bad for the economies where the jobs are being created is just absurd.
sulli
RTFJ.
I don't think so. India has a 2003 population of 1 billion vs. the U.S.'es 290 million. Although the numbers are not immediately comparable (because of the disparate standards of living in both countries and thus access to skilled workers), the simple fact is that India is could swallow every tech job here and not even burp. From a U.S.-centric view, the numbers are even worse when you look at the 1.2 billion citizens of China, although the language barrier offers some protection to tech workers.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
Why does it not surprise in the least that Procter & Gamble is on that list?
-- SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER.
Where should I outsource all my development to if I want to gain maximum profitability, yet want a fairly stable (more stable than india) geopolitical climate and still have a good level of skilled worker pool to choose from.
How do the different outsource havens (China, India, Brazil, Russia etc) all stack up together and which is likely to give me the greatest ROI with the least risk.
Sure, the teachers' unions would love teachers to be paid more. They do have something of an ulterior motive here.
But they are also a collection of teachers, and in my experience, what teachers generally want most is to be able to teach their students effectively. Now, money may not be the sole solution to the problems with public education in America, but I'll tell you this:
Saying that giving schools more money won't help is the most inaccurate, irresponsible statement I've ever heard.
There are some things that money can't solve. The inequalities between advanced-placement type students and more "normal" students is one of these: they can't be put in one class because either the former will be bored to tears or the latter will fail all the time, and once you start putting them in separate classes, there are serious status issues, as well as the problems with switching between honors and non-honors (or whatever) tracks. That is one basic structural problem with the generic public school system that money won't do much for.
But there are many things that money can help, especially in places where there is very little of it. There are plenty of schools, often in inner cities, where the textbooks are 30 years old, the buildings aren't up to code, and the teachers are uncertified and far too scarce. Money can obviously help fix these problems! Being able to hire really qualified teachers and buy new textbooks will improve the quality of education quite a lot.
I don't know much about the distribution of money to schools except in New York, so that's what I'll talk about. Here, we have a ridiculously byzantine system of calculations to determine how much money a public school gets from the state. It's also terribly unfair, with many rich schools getting a lot more money than a lot of poor schools. Recently, our Republican governor did his level best to avoid, then ignore, then block a court decision ordering the state government to revise the system to make it fairer, giving more money to poorer, inner-city schools that really need it. That doesn't sound to me like he really cares more about public education than taxes...or, in fact, like he wants the money that's already in public education to go where it's really needed.
PLEASE don't let yourself be brainwashed by those Republicans (and their ilk) who would have you believe that the teachers' union is an evil force that is trying to raise your taxes. You seem to have bought into the idea that every dollar spent on education is a dollar wasted.
Personally, I think that my money could not be better spent than in educating the next generation, if only to avoid the mistakes of this one.
Dan Aris
Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.
Most Indian Hindus revere Cows, and regard eating them as blasphemy!
Hence the expression "holy cow". But do Hindus eat mor chikin?
In America particularly, the government really is for the people and by the people by definition, but this still leaves most of us to question who exactly these people that the government is "for and by" are.
Answer: Given the large bloc of American voters who will do whatever the TV tells them to do, the government is of, for, and by the entertainment industry.
Although you have misrepresented the case against Trent Lott in a typical dittohead fashion, your point is still excellent! Bravo!