RJ asks:
"I would like to get some advice from others that may be going through the same situation I am. I am currently 19 and will be turning 20 in 1 week. I have held my current job, as Systems-Network Administrator, for almost a year now in very good standing according to my direct boss, the IT Manager. I have 5 years industry experience and a few certifications, yet I am more then qualified for my current position according to previous employers (and my work history/experience). It has recently come to my attention that our IT Director is trying to either find a way to get rid of me or transfer me into a miserable job position, all because of my age. My Boss explained to me he thinks it has to do with a bit of jealousy. Everyone I work with is over the age of 30 and the IT director is in his mid 40's." Either your too old, or your too young, or it's racial issues, sexual preference, and sometimes it can even be religion. Despite the fact that it's the
21st century discrimination still exists and many of us have had to face it in our careers. For most, it basically amounts to a career roadblock, while for others, it can also turn into an extremely humiliating and terrible experience. What options exist for those who experience it in any of the many forms it can take in the workplace?
"The IT Director has never approached me about any of this and treats me fine to my face, but seems to talk bad about me around my Boss, though my boss does his best to defend me. I have had no work problems (documented or not) and have a clean HR record. It's to the point I can't trust anyone at work anymore. Everywhere I work people like me but as soon as they learn my age they automatically hate me, become jealous, or try to find ways to get rid of me. I have learned to deal with this problem as I figured it went with the territory.
However, I also have a new baby daughter and a new wife to support
and I can't lose my job, especially in this economy. Needless to say
I am polishing up the resume and starting to look for a new job, but can anyone offer any sound advice, or legal actions which I can take if I do get fired, or even suggest employers in the industry that are friendly to my age bracket?"
Slashdot Mirror
I know exactly how you feel..a lot of the same stuff happens to me with different jobs and people. There's really not much you can do about it..and people usually aren't willing to help you out :(
but he isn't. If he was really a friend or cared about you in that job he would stand up for you and speak to someone above the person who is "unhappy" with you.
My best friend was in the same position as you, 21 years old, a unix admin, a new boss came in and wanted him gone. 6 months later they had a short list of stupid reasons to fire him and did so, even though they are the kind of things everyone does, sucha s coming in late 5 minutes once or twice.
#1: Document everything, whether rumors, tidbits you overhear, whatever. Keep a record of everything you hear, who said it, when, where, etc.
#2: If they set out to try to get rid of you, they can use anything, so stay on the ball.
The net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it. -- John Gilmore
You are 19 and currently have 5 years experience?
I don't buy it. Being on the net for 5 years or taking apart and playing with computers with your friends isn't real world(tm) job experience.
Please, prove me wrong.
--- I do not moderate.
You mean:
Either you're too old, or you're too young, or it's racial issues...
Come on, I expect this sort of thing from the trolls and thirteen year olds, but you're supposed to be setting an example. Wake up. This mistake should not be made, even by ten year olds.
Malike Bamiyi wanted my assistance.
Finding a job is easy. Finding a place to work where you really fit in is the hard part. If you don't like the people you work with, or they don't like you, it's just a matter of time until your gone (unless you are the boss :)
IF you keep worrying, you will age much faster and people will not get you for age discrimination. But Age discrimination happens the other direction as well -- if you're in IT, not management and over 35... watch out! You're being watched closely for signs of obsolescence. Many have associated that problem in conjunction with H1-B abuse... hrm... anyway...
Keep worrying! You'll lose your hair, get a wrinkly forehead and you'll fit right in. In the mean time, there's always surgery.
I always have this and I am the same age as you, Well I turn 20 mid December next year but anyway... I found that if you confront them and show them how much you know and how confident you are at your job then they will learn to respect your level of knowledge. Remember in the business world it all comes down to trying to run a succesful company and if they feel that your age will interupt this trend then that's why they might get offended.
I don't see a problem if you are doing your job and as you said your direct boss doesn't have a problem with you.
I am currently still studying at college but I always do jobs fixing computers on my time off and when the people see me (I look young) they get offended a bit until I show them how confident I am with what I do and then they change there mind.
The Older generation feel that they are more advanced with computers and forget to realise that alot of kids are growing up with computers too.
It has recently come to my attention that our IT Director is trying to either find a way to get rid of me or transfer me into a miserable job position, all because of my age. My Boss explained to me he thinks it has to do with a bit of jealousy. Everyone I work with is over the age of 30 and the IT director is in his mid 40's.
OK, you need to buckle down a little here and realize that it might be a perfectly legitimate complaint. They hired you knowing full well what your age was (unless you've got premature gray hair or you dress like Mr. Rogers), and you need to realize that they wouldn't have hired you if they didn't want you. Something has changed between the time when they hired you, and now. Odds are you've demonstrated something about your age that didn't show up in the interview. I don't know what it is in your case, but typical guesses would be that you've made some less-than-mature decisions.
I know plenty of people who have done the same thing. One example that comes to mind is a guy who started dating coworkers. A lot of them. And while it wasn't against company policy, it looked pretty immature when he was involved with a different staff member every month - and it wasn't the kind of mistake a 40-year old programmer would have made. The powers of the company didn't start disliking him because of his age: they disliked him because of the decisions he made.
Another thing you need to consider is the economy. Suddenly, employers have their pick of the best that's out there, and prices are dropping. You might have been a choice pick two or three years ago, but now there are better people out there with more experience, and the IT director might even have someone in mind.
Don't forget that personal connections mean everything. Your chief responsibility is to make sure your boss doesn't make any mistakes, and that he/she looks like a hero. As long as that's the case, your boss will always go to the mat for you, no matter how old/young you are, and nobody else in the company will be able to override them. You know what they say about trust: people who don't trust others, can't be trusted. If you come off as paranoid, nobody's going to put you in charge of stuff.
What's your damage, Heather?
Discrimination is a systemic problem.
A friend of mine worked as a trader in various places, and finance is an area where your merit is proved quite objectively -- by how much money YOU make for the company.
He was fired from 3 different jobs at MAJOR international and national banks, in large downsizings, even though he consistently made more money than everybody else in his department.
State-mandated, systemic, global solutions are needed. They involve rules, coercion, force, and surveillance of the free market. Capitalism says that merit is the only way to hire and promote, if one wants the most competitive edge. Unfortunately, major decisionmakers tend to choose racism every time over more profits.
Goat sex free since 2001
Finding a work environment where everybody gets along, and there are no politics, and everybody has the same goals is a rare and wonderful find.
Working in a political environment also takes a little thickness of skin. It's _very_ easy to take everything that happens as a personal sleight, but being a non-management employee means you're necessarily isolated from the decisions that make a company run. You may be passed over for a position, not because you're young, but because another person has been working there longer. I'm sure you're not the only person there that is expecting compensation (in the form of salary or promotions) for their work.
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
Hey if what you say is true then find another job somewhere else. Not much else to do. You could just live with it.
learn to live with it. You're out of school now and people can do whatever they damn well like. (unless you're discriminated against and you're black. that's completely different these days)
Talk to a lawyer who specializes in labor law. As with code, document, document, document. If your immediate boss is really on your side, get him to testify on your behalf, but mere speculation or rumors may not be enough.
I'm sorry, but you are only 20 and you need to pay your dues.
You're lucky they don't send you out for sandwiches. By the way, if you were actually that qualified, you would know the difference between "then" and "than".
Eat some humble pie, kiss some ass, and learn what your elders have to teach. You might actually turn them into allies.
You are more? And THEN what?
My too old what?
First thing the poster (... and editor) might try is to get educated about proper spelling.
That isn't a great question to ask the /. community. You are going to get a million IANAL but here is three large - run on forever and ever quite descriptive version on my opinion.
If you think you have a case see a lawyer. Besides that there is nothing you can do except... nothing. You can't be mean to him, as this will give him a legitamate reason to fire or demote you. You shouldn't ignore him because that isn't good for anyone in the workplace. But, most importantly don't take his shit.
But if you are serious about doing SOMETHING, do it legally and through the proper channels. I could have been one of the few woman-on-man sexual harassment 'victims' [read:Millionaire] if I would have sought real legal advice early.
Besides that, if you don't even know for sure what he thinks and he hasn't actually affected your job or overall life, there isn't much you can do.
I'm 21 and I learned this lesson fast. If you don't like the people you work with [or they don't like you] there isn't anything you can do; and if you quit or do something to get fired you may find it hard to get work afterwards.
Get your Unix fortune now!
of a 20 year old claiming "5 years industry experience". Of course, it IS possible that you were a sysadmin at age 15; but this story reminds me of a job candidate I reviewed in 1995. The candidate claimed "10 years java programming experience". That's not very likely, unless you're James Gosling, and even then...
If you have the motivation, drive and skill set you can overcome some age restrictions by being your own boss. Form your own company. You'll be making more money so you can outsource the work you hate to do (like billing and book keeping) and it's hard to fire the boss.
Just like certifications are a foot in the door, owning your own company shows you have a level of maturity and commitment to a cause that many of your peers do not. Down the road it might even turn into the best finiacial idea you ever had!
As long as you put forth a mentally mature attitude you can go wherever you want when your the boss.
You'll still have trouble renting a car, most banks won't give you a loan unless you're fairly wealthy already, and running your company out of your parents house is bit odd but overall I feel the benefits far outweigh the ills.
It's always easier to get a higher starting salary than a raise. If you don't like where you are, and your skills are as you describe, then get your resume out there, and take a better job.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
The tech business has changed in the last two years.
Before, business needed any qualified person they could get; now they can afford to revert to their old practices of discrimination. The accountants and marketeers who dominate business decision making are scared of workers who can demand market prices; so, they play politics. So, if you are under 22, over 35 or black or latino; you don't fit the profile. Remember, these days you can be replaced by an H1-B guest worker from India: a person who can't quit his job, ask for a raise and/or write to his congressman about getting !@#$ed
over at work. If you were running a cut-throat business, who would you hire? High tech work was once a good job for some one without a trust fund, without a Med Schoool or Law degree. Now, it's going the way of the agriculture: low margins (unless you're Microsoft) and cheap labor. High tech is boom/bust and we are in the bust phase and some people get shafted. The boom will return, by then you'll fit the profile. Just remember: the man lives on cheap, compliant labor. Just shuffle your feet and say "yes, sir" and pay your rent.
I had problems with discrimination in my first two jobs out of college - about ten years ago. I had the double whammy - young (21) and female. I was a sysadmin, programmer, jack of all trades, with three years of experience and a CS degree. But because I was female, the salesmen gave me letters to type. The owner referred to me as the "computer girl" and treated me like a secretary. I tried to tough it out for a while, but realized that there isn't much you can do about people like them. So I quit.
The next place I worked at, I was the manager of the IT department, with two employees reporting to me. I was nearly 20 years younger than them, and one of them had major problems with my age. She tried very hard to get me fired. Most of the other managers also thought I was way too young and didn't take me seriously at all. So I quit.
The next time I interviewed, I looked for companies with lots of young employees. Getting a tour of the company is a great way to scope this out. I also looked for temp-to-hire positions, so I could make sure things would be good before hiring in permanently. And I found a fantastic company, where people didn't care that I was female or young. I was much, much happier.
So if you've got the experience, knowledge, and talent, why stay in an environment where you're uncomfortable or not treated right? Life is too short...
I had the same problems starting out as an 18-year-old in IT. Luckily for me I look a little older than my age, so I had some time to spare before anyone caught on.
One particularly nasty moment I had was when I went in for a job interview, then a second, then a third at this company, and at the end of the third they brought me around to meet the people I was going to be working with, get to know people, see my desk etc. And one of the people I met said, "Hey, didn't you go to high school with my brother?"
...
Sure enough, I got the call the next day that they'd given the job to someone else (who they'd already told me wasn't qualified).
But it's how it goes. You get pressured out of jobs because of your age, or get quietly underpaid for the same work, or have managers explain to you "in the workplace, we do not always get full lunch hours like in school".
The thing to look for could be companies that were started by younger people (harder to find these days, admittedly), because they tended to do their thing as a result of being underappreciated at their old jobs.
I myself went into freelance and contract work, because you are sold on your reputation before they meet you. I also find that starting your own company (get lots of credit cards and disconnect your fear mechanism) is a good thing to do, ESPECIALLY when you have a wife and daughter (my situation exactly... it makes you work harder).
A few years from now you'll look back at this time, a second kid on the way, and think "wow, I can't believe almost every one of the companies I worked for that treated me like crap have gone out of business!", and it will all be okay.
The world's only surviving livewriter.
Lie about your age.
.. I was 22 or 23 .. I tacked a few years on .. only the HR department knew. [this was back before the onslaught of 'new blood' in my type of job .. when you had to be able to write html in a text editor :P]
.. this *is* yet another example of how the computer industry seems to have a large amount of 'disfunctional' people. Its quite possible that the IT director is actually *afraid* of you.
.. maybe thinking about early retirement.
.. or a real degree for that matter. - of course .. pure *nix zealots are just as bad .. but thats off topic]
.. and I would assume .. the last one there - your the first name on the list]
.. he should't be telling you about them .. if he is .. question that. Is he telling you becuase your making mistakes, and he is uncomfortable TELLING you to toe the line ? [ie .. subtle threat from outside, but im your friend type of boss] or is he a blabber mouth ? [tells everything to eveyone type of boss]
.. it sounds like you two are friends. Your not .. your an employee and his/her supervisor. You have to keep that professional distance. If your boss is telling you things HIS/HER boss is telling you (in confidence im sure) then they are actaually screwing up .. destroying the IT director's credability .. and putting themselves in a position to get axed. (HR wise)
.. your not in a good place .. start documenting stuff, if your boss says you do a good job .. ask him to put THAT in your work file.
When I started out as a Webbie
just don't talk about your birthday, or celebrate it. and no one is the wiser.
it made my coworkers more comfortable, my boss could associate with me more because i was closer to his age, and it kept them from saying 'dumb kid' behind my back.
Although
Your up on the current tech, you have some recent certifications. He is in his 40's
Maybe he just has his MCSE and is a paper tiger.
[I have noticed in the past that shops that are run by *M$ zealots* tend to be scared of people with real knowledge
Maybe he is getting pretture from above to ditch a few people. [and being the youngest
YOUR boss isnt helping the matter.
If his boss has problems with you
Your boss and you should have a professional relationship
either way
so you have a good paper trail incase they try to make a bad one.
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
Is your only direct source of information concerning this your boss? Be careful. It is not unheard of for bosses to distort information to their own ends. Would these "terrible" other jobs report to your boss or to someone else?
You sound like you are in a vulnerable situation and likely very stressed with the new baby on the way. Also, by demographic characteristics, you seem a bit of an outlier in your organization. This will initially cause social distance once people realize it.
Don't let these things stop you from building your network within the organization to include a large number of people who can both mentor and support you. Organizations are like microcosms of the external job market. You need to have other people who know you, appreciate you, and understand your value. There need to be alot of those for you to do well.
Try to think of ways to overcome any distance you may sense others feel. Find ways to join in with them socially, to perceive you not as a threat but a help. Participate in softball or after-hours drinks. The baby constrains things, but it is important not to drop out of sight.
Figure out how to get to know other bosses so that they will want you on their team. Find some way to chitchat with them. For instance, discuss their projects with them focusing on some aspect where you are knowledgeable and might show some insight.
What I fear from your message is that you are relying on your boss for too much of your connection at work. It also sounds like you are having pre-first baby anxiety adding to how bad the problem seems. Getting better social connections at work will help with both of these.
Good luck.
Unfortuantely for you, there are few laws regarding age discrimination for people under 40. In other words, it's probably not easy to win such a "reverse discrimination" suit. However, there are some cases in some states where reverse age discrimination law suits have been permitted. New Jersey is one - the Bergen Commercial Bank suit. Look it up.
But in any case, you don't want to get involved in any lawsuits with your employer. It's not good for you in your current position, and it certainly isn't good if you're looking for a new job ("Why did I leave? I decided that I couldn't work there after I sued them. So how are your benefits?").
Your best bet is to get your resume together and get out.
I'm sorry to say it, maybe I'm a pessimist, but when things have come this far that you hear that people are trying to move you out, it's time to move on.
You can try to talk to the HR Manager, if you feel that you can trust h(im|er) I'd do that. HR Managers that are worth their salt aren't just hire, fire, and benefits people. I've personally always had very good relations with HR Managers. The best ones are honest upstanding people that will tell you that 'yes get out of here on the first boat sailing.'
I know it's tough looking around in this economic climet, believe me I know it's like the party's over and we're left paying the check. If you're as good as you say you are though it shouldn't be too bad, just expect some tough times while you transition and don't expect to find anything local.
Don't expect to find another job that is equal to what you have though. You're spot on that there's descrimination against young people of your age. I can't believe that you've got a 4 year degree at your age, or even a 2 year degree. See the recent discussion about quick college degree's here.
No one is going to believe that you're a SysAdmin god at 20 with no college and no tech school and only a year of experience. Unless maybe you're Evi Nemeth's grandson.
My personal suggestion would be to find a company that needs a Jr. SysAdmin, and find a mentor. No one wants to one-man-band things, and wether you think so or not a mentor is always a good thing. If you're as good as you say you are you'll learn new and interesting things faster than you can imagine, which will prepare you for your next job as a SA, believe me there will be more.
What if it is just turtles all the way down?
1) My friend is a black male and is intimidatingly smart.
2) He has tried suing, especially in the 2nd firing, but lawyers won't take many race discrimination cases because most of the money is in sexual harrassment cases. Women who prove harassment tend to get the big damages.
Goat sex free since 2001
Your too young and many new things will show up in the future.. Just remember not to do the same thing to those with 19 when youre 40 and at the top of a company like that (as you probably will be).. People have diferent interests, and some will do anything to reach them.. its about us to change this, and for all of our sake, i hope we can .. We should all kill our "f$#k each other" instincts ..
I fuse with Mercer every single day...
"...can anyone...suggest employers in the industry that are friendly to my age bracket?"
Try La Petite.
:)
Knunov
Why do users with IDs under 100,000 or over 700,000 usually have the most worthwhile comments?
Maybe we should all learn from this. For those of you that are youngins and getting into a new job that might get serious - lie about your age to everyone after you get hired. Just don't do that on a resume/review!
Berto
Before (and after some) of the "this is illegal!" replies comes up, let me say that this IS legal! Age discrimination is only illegal if it applies to older (40+) folk. This is intended to prevent companies from taking their older staff and replacing them with younger ones whom they can pay less. There is NO protection from an employer saying that you're too young and they can't hire you. Like it or not, that's the way it is.
When I was 19, I had five years of real world experience, too.
Now I'm 28, and I have 9 years of real world experience... All of it in the past 9 years.
-JDF
Stay among your equals, or make them believe you are equal to them. That is: grow a moustache and dress like an older guy. To women, it is preferable to make their colleagues believ you are actually a man.
My suggestion is for you to give them a smile due to the circumstances and get out of there as fast as you can. Keep good relations for your resume.
I am not sure how to deal with your situation, but I have been there before and know it sucks.
I worked at a small company that ended up being very successfully. I was one of 3 people that built the technology and staff to handle the IT functions of the business. Since this was a tech company that amounted to about 90% of the workforce.
About 2 years before their IPO the 3 of us were told "we need to put an older face on IT for the IPO roadshow". That would have been OK if the first 3 tries at filling the CIO role didn't completely SUCK. The average CIO lasts for 16mos before they get fired.
I ended up leaving the company because I got tiered of trying to prove myself to another stupid CIO candidate that probably wouldn't last for a year.
I guess I would tell you to do the same thing. Chalk it up to life experience. If the top dog can not trust you because of your age find someone who will.
First, you don't have 5 years experience. Unless you started working 9-to-5 at age 14. Part-time at 14, which I doubt you did, doesn't count. Running a few linux machines at your high school or at your house doesn't count.
Second, do you actually care whether or not this is age descrimination? I wouldn't. If someone is looking to get rid of you, the real problem is that someone is looking to get rid of you. You either resolve that or you get ready to get kicked out of the company. Get ready for the inevitable -- you are on the way out.
How about you take the obvious not-so-attractive-short-term choice: quit the company, get some student loans, and go back to college. (I'm assuming you either dropped out or never went)
What did you eat today? http://www.atetoday.com/
You simply have to out-shine everyone else (not by showing off, but simply do what you're told in an efficient and professional manner) as well as being an all-round nice guy.
It's still hard to find good people, despite the economic downturn and if you prove yourself valuable to the company, there's no reason to fire you.
As everyone facing possible discrimination, you have to work twice as hard and twice as good as your co-workers.
In my opinion, there will always be discrimination. My experience in industry and academia has taught me to be very aware of discrimination. It is there, and it always will be there. Humans are human. As long as we judge each other, discrimination will occur.
With that said, I wish people would stop complaining so much. It is actually very, very rare to be discriminated against. To be more precise, it is rare to be only discriminated against. Instead, what usually happens, is that a person is lazy, annoying, or useless. Management then makes a move and the person being "attacked" cries discrimination.
I'm not trying to minimize the impact of discrimination, but come on folks, most of us know that the people being "discriminated against" are the slugs. They are the people that you actually want to eliminate from your company or organization.
Once again, just to be 100% clear, I know that discrimination happens. I hate it. You hate it. But, in my opinion and experience, it is extremely rare that it is the only factor.
How to Download YouTube Videos
Yes, there are some "laws about age
discrimination" but they only apply to
people who are like 50 or over. Besides,
when you get your draft card you still can't
drink alchohol. Also, try being 23 and renting
a car. Yes, age discrimination is pretty much legal.
I have a similar problem where I work, with coworkers (and former bosses) that are burned out on technology and choose not to learn anything new. They think because of their experience they don't need to learn or become certified in anything else.
Alan Greenspan once said (and I'm paraphrasing here because I don't remember the exact quote) that technology is like a treadmill, and it's hard for people to stay on it and gain new skills.
Many people don't realize until it is too late that they are in a profession in which their core knowledge has an extremely limited shelf life. During the IT boom many friends asked about getting technology jobs, and I warned them that they would be entering a field in which everything they knew would be useless in five years.
Ten years ago what was in vogue . . . Netware, IPX / SPX, Windows 3.0, OS/2, DOS 5.0? Knowing just those systems today wouldn't get you that far . . .
As for your current problem, keep doing your job, document everything you do to contribute to your organization, and keep picking up new skills and certifications. And start casually looking for something else . . . if push comes to shove, you might be surprised to find out how much your worth out there if you test the waters.
Chalk this up as a learning experience. I myself learned the hard way that when you are promoted or given a salary increase, your coworkers almost automatically become jealous, no matter what they might tell you to your face.
Just keep focusing on your job and improving your skills and knowledge, and don't let anyone stand in your way.
thats suicide.
especially if he ONLY told the problems to said induvidual's boss.
The boss (and IT manager) finds out that :
1. he went over his head
2. he cant keep a secret
*bingo* thats all the rope they need.
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
I'm also a youngin' in the IT workplace. I often look around the room and realize that everyone there is old enough to be my papa, and sometimes everyone is old enough to be my GRANDpapa. When I walk into a room full of bank execs to explain how the crypto in our product is going to solve their problems, or why what they have doesn't work, or ..., I know that I have a potential credibility problem _out of the chute_.
So, I compensate for this. I will _never_ show up for a meeting underdressed... if anything... slightly overdressed. This tells them I'm serious about the meeting and about fitting in with them. It also adds a couple of years. I always make sure I'm cleanly shaven and usually that I have a nice, conservative haircut. You want to fit in with them. It doesn't matter that the 40 year old IT colleague next to me is dressed below everyone else in the room and needs a haircut. I expect that I need to step up my appearance to compensate for my age. Further, I work diligently to purge any words from my vocabulary that might remind them that I'm 40 years younger than they are.
It doesn't work 100%, but as meetings go on, people do tend to forget that I'm so young and concentrate on the content that I'm sharing with them. Ocassionally, after a meeting, someone will ask me my age. Sometimes I tell them, sometimes I don't. Usually, instead of turned off, they're impressed at how I came by so many years of experience and industry understanding at such a young age.
You can't expect to walk into a room of 50 year old and be treated the same. You must earn your credibility.
Of course, sometimes there are dipshits in the world. They're going to look at you and treat you like someone that's young and knows nothing. These people you just learn to deal with. Often you can work around them, ignore them, etc. Other times you leave the environment, or just prove them wrong. (Proving them wrong in private is much more effective than proving them wrong in public. Never make someone else look bad in public unless you're prepared to have them hate you for life.)
Just my experience, for what it's worth.
(Mission critical employee of S&P 500 listed company, sitting regularly with execs of companies with billions in annual revenue.)
Just because you didn't work while you were in high school doesn't mean no one else did. As a freshman in high school (14 yrs old) my father hired me to do some network administration in the small accounting firm he owned. I learned on the job and he paid me a low hourly salary. I did that all through high school and college for him. That's 8 years of "real world(tm)" experience before getting a degree.
;-)
No one is going to say their 19 with 5 yrs experience and not mean it. You can be sure he's used to the questions, and knows better than to state something like that on Slashdot without a valid story behind it
Developers: We can use your help.
"more then qualified" Then what, perhaps a spellchecker or grammer lessons? Perhaps you just don't fit into the vision, or lack thereof, of the IT director. Do you dress like a clown, download crap all day and read Slashdot on the job? Do you visit eBay and buy stuff or even worse, gamble over the net? Download pr0n?
Look at yourself and see what is seen by others.Then cast stones as hard as you can.
HAH! He's probably worrying about next
month's mortgage payment and getting his kids
through school!
Good ole' american past-time.
You'll be old and your l33tness will wear off later on in life..
Think about this, you can be a bad-ass young whipper snapper, but if you don't get respect from your "elder" boss etc, you have accomplished squat.
It takes finesse, skill, and good personality to "fit-in" where you don't belong. Im guessing this young dude that wrote this, isn't the best in this department. Attitude counts, doesn't matter how much skill you have if you act like a young hot shot asshole, you'll get pushed into a corner.
I work in a tech support environment as a supervisor, I am 31 years old and am one of the oldest supervisors in the call center. My manager is 23. There is an employee here who is of a similar circumstance as you. He is 19, has a kid, and is married. On top of that, he just bought a house. He is one of the best workers there, and is a very responsible adult (yes, 19 year olds are adults!). The management staff all recognize that he is a great employee, and have promoted him accordingly. There are a few people that have the misconception that they aren't being promoted because they are too young. The actual reasons are because they complain about their jobs all the time, slack on the job, have negative views of the company, or have poor attendance. They seem to miss the fact that the people above them in job status are their age or younger.
In my opinion, either your company is not typical in the IT world, or the reason you think you are being discriminated against isn't what you think is is.
Oh, and to the guy that complained about his grammar. The guy is a Sys Admin, he is supposed to have bad grammar, it comes with the territory.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The story is a dupe, the topic is boring, the facts weren't checked. WE GET IT!!
at: http://linuxmonkey.freeservers.com
One thing to keep in mind when self-assessing your job performance is that technical skills and ability are only a part of the performance picture.
Since so much of the IT field is really skill-based (either you can do something or you can't), it becomes easy to overlook the importance of one's relationship with others in the workplace. I think that's one of the biggest failings of academic computer science programs, in fact: the emphasis is so tightly focused on technical performance (and individual technical performance, no less) that it becomes too easy to overlook the importance of being able to effectively work with a whole range of other people.
There's nothing in your note that suggests this is a particular problem for you. But it's worth bearing in mind in any case, for your future career success most assuredly depends on your ability to forge and maintain solid working relationships with your peers. And it's worth asking: are there things you could do differently to minimize the "resentment" effect on others of things (like your age) over which you have no control? I'm not trying to excuse age discrimination (in fact, it's one of the factors that led me to leave a job myself about six years ago), but it's definitely worth realizing early on that differences in age, education, experience, style, mannerisms, etc. all have an effect on people's ability to work together--and that the person who can find a way to work well with a wide variety of others is likely to enjoy success far beyond that which can be achieved by technical prowess alone.
IANAL, but your legal options are very limited since age is only a protected class over 40.
Keep in mind that your immediate boss may be making this up.
This is what I would do. (Keep in mind I don't know anything about you, your workplace or fellow employees.)
March into the IT Director's office and politely, with paperwork in hand (your resume, certifications, performance evaluations, etc) confront him about this. State upfront that your goal for the meeting is for you to part as friends with all professional differences worked out, and ask him if he would like to work to that goal (he has to say yes). Then, warn him that you're going to be blunt, and slowly and carefully explain what you see from your side. He will probably deny saying anything bad about you, but you must be ready for that, politely disregard it, and keep going. Tell him that you realize these things often get confused in the translation and you need to have him hear you out regardless so you feel that you've covered all your bases. Remind him that he agreed to the goal of the meeting and this is a necessary step. Then lay it all out. Be very careful to explain how your credentials and employment are important to the Company. In fact, refer to "the Company" often. That reference will remind him that his duty is to act not in his personal taste but in the interests of his organization.
The idea here is to show the director that you will not be f*cked with, to give him a fair sporting chance to buck up, and to protect your position.
If this meeting does not go well, report it to his immediate boss ASAP. You have taken a legitimate step to resolve a classic HR problem and been foiled. You have every right as an employee to be taken seriously in greviances regarding people talking bad about your job performance.
If you have a performance evaluation soon, then you might like to simply request to have it with the director instead of your immediate boss. OTOH, performance evaluation meetings are skewed in power to the manager so it will work better if you initiate the meeting and he has no idea what it's about.
Could be they don't appreciate your lack of a union card - in this case, education. Its not just a prejudice. If you don't get anything else out of college, you typically get at least two things. First, you learn how to think critically. Second, you learn how to find things out (look stuff up, use a library, etc.).
These things show up in the work place as your ability to explain a situation, your ability to convince others how to solve a problem, and your ability to act independently and not take what anyone says at face value (at least until they have earned your trust).
Have you ever said "these guys just don't understand. If they would just trust me and let me do the work, everything would be fine." Have you? That's what I'm talking about. Knowing how to do the work is a small part of any job.
This is not a troll. I believe a college education benefits any who achieve it. Please consider earning a degree. You probably don't want to hear it, but your life will be better because you earned the degree.
People will give you all kinds of advice. How many of the people who advise you to forget college have a college degree? Something to think about.
Man, I've lost count of the posts on /. that go something like this:
Hi SlashDot, I'm $Xteen years old, and I'm the IT/NOC/Systems Director/Manager/Admin and I make $AVG_NORTH_AMERICAN_SALARY*2.5/year.
I never went to college, got the job right out of HS, starting as a phone jockey. I have $AGE/4 years experience. All my underlings are $AGE*4 years. Ph3@r m3.
If this is for real, then at 26 with no certs I'm washed up and ready for the old folks home.
Insensitivity: -1, Offtopic: -1, KiddyBashing: -1, Speaking your mind: Priceless
The first thing to do is give them no negative reasons to fire you. Show up a little early, go home a little late, take a shorter lunchbreak, care for your appearance and personal hygiene, that kind of stuff.
The second thing is document everything. Plan what you do and get the plan signed by your boss. Review what you do with him, and keep a record of that too. As well as covering your behind, these plans/reviews will help you improve your performance and demonstrate what you have contributed.
Once you've got the tangible things in place, remember the intangible stuff. You might benefit from improving your interpersonal skills. People who do not meet the white-middle class-middle aged - male norm which dominates companies have to manage their personal interactions very carefully. The key to this is to take the time to listen to others: give them your total attention. This is especially true when you know they are wrong.
And finally, make sure you perform so well that they would be insane to fire you. Ability is great, but nothing builds job security like solid performance.
Good luck!
"Well, put a stake in my heart and drag me into sunlight."
Remember the most important part "speaking as a 12 year old"
Remember the razor, however. If you find that many people are wrong and impossible to convince, you may not be right. Good luck!
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I must admit that as a younger manager I did my fair share of crushing.
The core problem is that in a corporate (and government) environment there's always a fair bit of lying and backstabbing going on, usually at the same time.
You know the mix, two truths and one lie.
If there's some know-it-all who starts correcting me when I'm feeding this mixture to someone I have to placate/bribe to get, for example, the budget to rehire the selfsame wiseass next year, I'm going to smile, nod, and thank that person there and then, then turn around and fire his ass next day.
It would be so much nicer if the world were a better place but as it is, I have to live in it. I'm trying to change it all right but that change'll take more than my lifetime to push through.
Remember kids: even if you know how the stuff is done, you probably don't know, at 20, the reason your manager (or salesperson) is lying.
You may believe you are god's gift to your boss, but the people you are workign with most likely have degrees (which you obviously don't) as well as years more experience than you do. You may be doign your job OK, but I bet in ten years time you'd be the first to shout how much more useful experience you have than some 20 yr old, and how that experience helps you see things at a higher level and make better decisions.
The tech job market is competetive, and it may well be that although you're doing OK, that your performance falls short enough of what the higher ups know a more experienced person would bring to the job. I'd really adivise you to look for another job, although your other alternative would be to ask where you are coming short of expectations / requirements, and what you can do to improve yourself.
Same thing happened to me, I was 19 and the only web backend programmer. I actually replaced the older, higher paid, "director of technology." I was put on probation because I had a "proven track record of being 3-5 mintues late" and was told otherwise i was doing a great job. Besides that, there was a big history of other people taking credit for my work and excluding me from meetings. Another older programmer with a paper degree, who had no database experience, would actually plan and estimate projects and then hand them to me.
I had my first paying job at 13, programming a document processor in assembler. I've always counted my work experience starting from that moment.
It's simply the fact that you don't have experience. Being 19 means that you can't have had that much "real world" experience. No matter what you call it, most people aren't gonna consider it experience until you've had a job that you do full time. They simply want to replace you with someone with more experience. An employer has every right (and should, in fact) want to hire those with more experience. And right now, they cana hire people with more experience for probably the same thing that you're making. Suck it up kid. This is the way the real world works. Maybe instead of worrying about your job, you should spend your time in college, so you'll be able to be something more than some admin monkey your whole life.
I worked for Mastercard for 5 years, starting as an intern after my sophomore year in college. I was in HR for a year, then an analytical dept for a year, then the "IT" department for 2 years. I was hired at 19, had great reviews and only compliments for my first 2 years.
After I graduated and was hired full time, I was moved under a jack-ass of a boss. He was an idiot, but lied and carried himself well, so got away with a lot of shit. Anyway, he was my 4th boss at the company and was the only one to talk about me behind my back. He gave me great reviews, but the raises sucked and he told others I was too young, even though everyone agreed I did more than my share of good work.
After one particular comment he made in front of others, I put in an official complain in human resources. They did nothing. I went to his boss, who also did nothing (he seemed to feel uncomfortable with discussing it with my boss). I felt my salary was being held back because I was being discriminated against. I had no good way to prove it, however.
I took 2 weeks vacation, found a new job, and started at double the salary I was getting at Mastercard. I'm still at this other company and I'm treated very well, even as the youngest in my group.
My experience tells me that if your IT director wants to get rid of you, you're out of luck. Granted it's a bad market, but go looking elsewhere. Remember that you won't be able to sue him (most likely) until after you're fired, which is way too late if you've got a family. So freshen up that resume and send it to everyone and their mother.
Good luck.
Developers: We can use your help.
I have a similar problem. I'm only 22, but I'm as smart as a whip. Perhaps even smarter.
My boss, who is 41, isn't that smart. I mean he started in the industry doing COBOL. Come on, even I'm smarter than that.
My colleagues are all older than me. They always talk about the old days, like C++ and VMS. They just like to worry what management likes to hear. Not me, I'm a PHP god, and I'm sure we can save millions if they'd let me.
There is this one older guy that I work with who LOVES to use databases! I said "just put it all in XML"! Saves thousands of dollars just in database licensing fees! But he won, because the management likes older guys and that old database crap.
I spoke my mind, and my boss shut me down. I said to him "what happened to free speech???". Then he demoted me to the mail room.
They're all old guys down there too. They're concerned about delivering junk mail. I said "Let's just chuck it, no one reads it anyway". It could save thousnads a year, but they don't listen to younger people who are smarter then they are.
My friend Timmy is in law school - he's helping me document all this so we can sue them and then I'll own my boss!
As many other posters have pointed out, your current path is pointing towards the exit door. You have very little to lose by sitting down with your IT director either alone or with your boss and discussing his thoughts on your job performance. To do this properly, you must be very open and non-defensive. Granted, he or your boss should have come to you, but don't let that failing cause your career to get derailed. Find the problem and address it.
Since you are in an early part of your career, I have a guess. I have worked with sysadmins that were technical experts and adminstratively incompetent as well as some who were technically marginal and administratively adept. Guess which is more important... (donning flameproof suit here)... it is the administrative skills. If you were hired as a crack technical expert, you could have made a big splash by initially fixing many broken things, then the job could have evolved beyond your organizational skills. You may have to hook up with a strong mentor and start working on that end of the job.
Be open-minded and try not to leap to assuming conspiracy or discrimination first. This is your career to manage so take charge of finding out what is really going on in this situation
From what you said, it sounds like you haven't sat down with the Director and had a real talk. Sure, it's nice to have a "boss" that will "defend" you, but for all you know, there may be nothing to defend from.
Go right to the horse's mouth. Ask him what his plans for you are. Ask where he sees you with the company in 1 year, 2 years, 5, 10... Be prepared to answer the same question.
Don't take anybody's word except the Director's. If he has a problem with you, hear it from him.
Then, after you've had your little talk, email him a summary so that you confirm that you understood what was said. This is a neat technique to get the conversation on record (as in, print the email, print the response, file someplace safe).
This probably applies to anyone who is having trouble in their job - most of the time, it boils down to communication problems. Rumour gets accepted as fact, people get pissed off, and brown stuff hits spinning blades. If you can cut out the rumour/hearsay, and get your facts straight from the source, many of these problems can be averted before anything really happens.
But, that's just my opinion.
It is pitch dark. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
I'm in the same position, except Opposite. I started working at the company I'm with when I was 18, as an intern. I eventually was hired on full time, as a junior programmer/IT staffer (I'm at a 15 employee company). Eventually, my senior guy left, leaving me as the senior guy. I had worked with him for over a year and a half, so I could basically do everything he could. And the boss loved this fact. Since I'm youger, and have less experience, I demand less of a salaray then he did. Funny thing is, now that I've been the senior guy here for two years, we just got another intern, who is training to do everything I do. So if I leave, I'd imagine everything would fall into his lap. It's a vicous cycle. But my company is small, so they bosses need to make some sacrifices.
Th
I hope that in the 21th century, we don't let apesnots like Wesley Crusher run things on the bridge.
Pushin' 'n dealin', shovin' 'n stealin'
If it's your 20th birthday next week, send an email around inviting everyone out for beers after work; bring in donuts; make a big event of it.
Bring the issue into the open: let them all you've just turned 20, give them every chance to indicate they think you're too young; hey, even ask them if they think it's so.
You'll get them on your side, and cut their arguments from underneath them.
Sorted.
I am the Co-director of The technology Dept. at my highschool, and I am a Junior aswell. .avi's onto his machine, let it sit for a few days, and when you go to "Update" his computer, accidently find them, say hidden in the printer folder.
We have several teachers that really really hate us because they are idiots.
One is mad because he lost all of his grades because he saves to the same floppy he's been using for about 3 years now.
The SPanish teacher hates us because her husband comes in at night and fucks stuff up, but she can't comprehend that he's breaking it, it has to be us.
My suggestion for you is to video tape him
Confront him with a video camera,
with your other boss. Get him to say why, on tape.
Or, Blackmail. I do that to my tech partner,
I caught him with "naughty" things on his computer, so I just have to mention that, and he'll do anything I want. If need be, you can plant something for blackmail. Do you have a samba network? Copy some porn
I am actually going through a similar experience. I am younger by far than most of the people I work with and to make matters worse I have long hair (many old folks don't like that). But they can not argue with the job I do. And even in this economy, good tech people are hard to come by. If they wanted you gone, by now you probably would be. Continue to make yourself valuable at work and they will gain respect for you. Take on high profile and important tasks. While you are young you will need to work a little harder to earn respect. Also many companies don't care about you until someone else does, so send out some resumes and if a job comes along with a higher salary your work may see the light and match that salary to keep you there.
http://www.kubuntu.org/
It's too late for your current job, but on the next one, well, now you know what to do. I mean, of course when you're filling out the HR papers for your tax stuff, insurance and other benefits, you give your true age. But, casually, with your new co-workers, you add 10 years.
Wow! Look! You just got a tiny bit more experienced.
cygnuhchur
If you fall outside the norm for an organization (the "normal majority"), you're going to be subject to pressure to conform to the organization's--specifically the people who make up the organization's--view of normalcy. That "normalcy" takes many forms, some good and some bad, but it's universal, and likely to remain so.
:) Thinking you can solve your career problems by "solving" others personal, cultural, age or whatever hang-ups almost never works--and usually backfires.
The choice is simple: fit yourself to the organization, or find an organization that fits you. It sounds like you're motivated and intelligent, but maybe don't have the self confidence to take that road. You're young and you have plenty of time to make mistakes and correct.
Just like debugging any problem... If you're stalled, change something and see what happens.
One minor piece of career advice: Focus on your own problems, not others. (You'll get plenty of that--and wish you didn't--when you become a manager.
Just like dealing with legacy systems... there are some things you can't fix--recognize it and move on to what you can fix.
(p.s. My road meant working in select groups within larger organizations, or working in startups--environments where function mattered more than form. I started doing that from the time I was your age. It's many years later and I don't regret it. The journey has not always been happy, but always challenging, and never boring.)
If this is really discrimination, why are you asking Slashdot about it rather than your state's Department of Labor? New York State has a Department of Human Rights to deal specifically with discrimination.
rooooar
I can personally attest to this with two examples.
Example the first: I worked for a woman with about a decade of managing tech support experience. If we had a conflict with a customer, she was available and knew how to handle it without compromising the support team. We worked well together and when it was review time she showed lots of appreciation.
Example the second: Same company, different boss, similar job. Worked for a dude with about 3 years experience as a manager. He was unavailable most of the time and when you had a conflict with a customer, automatically sided with the customer even if they were wrong. (This often meant hours sometimes days of extra work cleaning up messes that weren't ours to begin with.) As a result the technical folks all knew him to be an idiot.
(Note to non-tech support people: Conflicts are 99% of the time revolving around "we want you to do something" that the customer isn't paying for or that we don't know how to do because we don't sell/service that product.)
But HR still backed him when he decided to fire me over a short list of said conflicts.
Moral of the story: If your boss that you directly report to is an idiot, QUIT! Don't even bother trying to document anything and try to "take action with HR" becauses in this economy a bad boss will trump up a "performance-issue" and replace you like that. Better to find another position (even within the company) before you even consider blowing the whistle. Until the economy is chugging again, don't even think about it.
It's a lesson I learned by getting fired a week before Christmas.
Who did what now?
The profession you are in is one which does not have rock solid job-security. They removed the cheif network architect at my work with no advance notice to him or anyone else. (He must have angered some higher-up person)
But the network survived with only the remaining staff. You can bring in new admins, tell them your local topology, and have them be productive on the first day.
If you want more job security, you have to get into a position where the company needs you as much as or more than you need them. A good programmer will find himself in this position easily.(no matter how well he documents his code- programmers will never be interchangeable)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I work for a Software company and I am the youngest person in the company. there have been several people in high places trying to get rid of me or make me look bad to the VP of technical support (whom is my direct boss, joke with all the time). I was acused of consuming alcohol on company time & property by the director of HR whom had never seen me in her whole life and didnt have a clue of what I looked like but said" yes, I saw this person drinking in the parking lot".
I was fsckin pissed! she had no proof on me at all either, luckily my supervisor faught for me and i didnt lose my job.
and besides that people in tech support get jelous of the fact that somebody that turned 20 in September is making the same salary if not more, and knows more about howto support our line of windows and unix/linux based products.
ok, I now have vented to the community.
Why don't you just ask??? Go to your boss and start a dialogue. Use that information to make a sound judgement, don't Ask Slashdot what you should do.
Your 19, don't expect to be the president of the company in a few years.
An exploration of mixology, spirits and bartending.
I went and scheduled a meeting with the manager, and then the second line manager (higher-up.) As a performance review.
I said I simply wanted to get some feedback on how they thought I was doing and how I could continue to meet their expectations.
I said I felt I was doing well at meeting my goals, but I wanted to make sure that I was doing all that I could, and wanted their opinions on my performance.
The first job I ever did this at, it was wonderful. I heard better things about myself than I could have guessed. This was at a small company.
The next time I did this, it was at a large multinational corporation. The manager brought my team leader into the meeting even though I hadn't wanted it. The team leader was a micromanager who changed my priorities daily, took away whatever I was working on and finished it himself, without giving feedback about what I was or wasn't doing, even when asked. So, he lit into a speech about how I managed to contribute no value to the team. (Despite other team members sending notes praising me to the manager. I was copied on those.)
I was given a chance to respond, and I fell for it- I showed clearly how every point was an unfair assessment. I won the battle, but lost the war. I've not been fired, but I do have weekly meetings with my manager now.
He gets good feedback via notes from my new team leader, and other members of the team. I tell him how I've met my deadlines, and what I'm working on next and when the deadline is for it. He nods and smiles and comes up with something esoteric to criticise, like, did I improve customer satisfaction this past week? To which I say, yes, I met my deadline and excelled at providing the customer with a better 'X'.
So, be careful, learn from my experiences. However, it does look good to be proactive and seek out ways- just be careful to not get ambushed as I did, and in doing so, don't get sucked into winning the battle...
But when law makes it unfair, as in the case of the "age discrimination is only over 40" that's wrong. Slapping a number on age discrimination is age discrmination in and of itself!
Speaking strictly, the IT director won't tell you this to your face because it's not his job to do so. It's his job to deal with your boss (from the sounds of it). Period. And your bosses problem to deal with you.
Now, what should happen is your boss would shield you from the director. If your boss thinks his boss is out of line, it's up to your boss to do something about it.
If you were to go over your bosses head and complain somewhere over the Director's head, it may get your boss in shit.. because it's his job to sort this out.
Now.. strangely enough, I was in basically this exact same position a few years ago, if you can believe it.
The VP Tech (out of the blue) decided that I needed to be fired, and started basically blaming things on me, and to make it worse, he worked in our head office, not in the building I was in. Whenever I saw him in person, he was nice, joking, friendly. Whenever he was back in his office, he backstabbed.
Just before he moved to this new office and started trying to get rid of me, we hired an IT Director, whom I reported directly to (clarification, in my case, it's the VP who's bad and the director who's my boss) Now.. this guy barely knew me. I was young (24) compared to everyone else involved.. and he walked right into his new job to find that the VP Tech was trying to axe me. What did he do? He came to me in person, said so-and-so has it in for you, and flatly stated that he thought such behavior was unprofessional and that he had no intention of letting me go. This was after working with me for about 3 or 4 days.
Weeks later, at a meeting, with all senior management present, The VP brought up the topic of canning me again. My new boss stood up, said basically, and firmly, 'We are not letting him go, he stays. if you have a problem with what my department does, bring it up with me. It's not up to you to hire/fire my staff. That's why you hired me as the Director of IT'. This was in front of the CEO, etc. And that settled it. It never came up again.
(nt)
maybe not 19 and 5 but... i am 20 and have seven years experience!
has this proven anything?
NO!
I still wouldn't hire ANYONE withut a degree - especially today. Don't get me wrong - there are plenty of people who have tons of real world experience - but what happens if we need to approach things from a very different approach, a new language, more stringent specs, tightwads holding the purse strings(buyers market now - we have to give on somethings we wouldn't put up with before)? I'll be damned if I hire someone who can't think for themselves in a pinch, and can't show me up i have a degree and i know i don't know everything
Internet is Great!!! junis
People who can't understand the difference between "then" and "than" are only qualified for two positions: janitor or Slashdot editor.
I got my first paying job as a computer technician when I was 14. They only paid me something like $3/hr and no more than about 10 hours a week but it was a real job and I gained a lot of experience from it. Figuring out how to network ancient Apple, PC, Amiga, Atari, and TI machines together was incredibly tricky. The job also included some programming (I won an award in a state contest for one of the programs). I've been working on computers sense that time and I know all about living with discremination because of your age or lack of a degree. Even now that I'm 23 a lot of companies act like they can treat me like a kid even if their whole business relies on me to keep running.
Finding a job in the current economy is a nightmare too. Submit a resume like mine to Burger King and they think I'm insane.. submit it anywhere that hires more advanced employees and they take a look at me and trash it. I almost never get interviews but I've been hired by almost every company that has ever interviewed me even once.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
10 years ago I was a hot shot programmer who was as talented as all the older guys - and I couldn't figure out why someone else with the same skills could be more valuable.
Guess what? Years later I'm much better at the same sort of things, yet my skills are rustier.
Real experience is invaluable - that means being on the job for several years, learning how to make decisions, how to work with all sorts of people, how to get things done etc etc.
If I was hiring (and I am, oddly enough), I'd be really unlikely to hire someone without real world experience, unless they were a genius. Given we seem to be all out of geniuses this year, I'm sticking to people who were hot shots 5 years ago, and are now great tech people with maturity and experience.
Funny, huh?
+--------------------- You idiot! I told you we were facing the wrong way!
Biggest problem I can see with "youngster's" at rhe helm is one of experience.
Not technical experiencebut of human experience.
The younger techs do not seem to grasp the idea that saving a Word File (et al) is not an innate ability that all humans have. Thusly, younger techs tend to be ineffective "trainers" and short on patience.
Oddly I also find younger techs do not have the ability to "See The Screen" allowing them to talk someone through a set of commands or mouse clicks to "fix" their issue. Despite all of their excellent tech knowledge and boundless energy, young techs aren't always great people people.
In the thinning IT world being able to talk to a 60 year old VP Assistant is more important than being able to script or build a BIND server.
(I am sure the 45+ set is saying that about me and my 30ish set -- such is life)
This
Before I started with my current employer, I applied lots of places where they never even called me back, even though I was more qualified than most of the applicants. When I applied for my current position as IT manager for a small area of operations in a major automotive company, I didn't fill in anything concerning my age. When I went in for the interview, they were obviously impressed with my credentials, but they were also surprised that I was so young. However, because the director looked over my resume while assuming I was older, it got the proper consideration it deserved, and I got the job. Human nature dictates that when someone achieves something that they are proud of, (e.g cushy job playing with computers all day) they will be jealous of those who have achieved it earlier in life. It's unfortunate, but as far as I can see unavoidable. Unless anyone else has any ideas about starting a program to get old people to respect young people?
In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king, and the man with the computer is pretty much ignored.
Lie about your age.
NEVER EVER provide information that is documented false. Especially on resumes and applications. Most employers can terminate you immediately for cause for any false or misleading information you submit. Even something as simple as a birthdate.
HR will know, anyway. In the US at least, you have to show proof of citizenship and if you use a birth certificate, they know your age. And you have to supply a birthdate for insurance, 401k enrollment, lots of things.
But you can be vauge (on a resume, leave dates off key events, like college graduation). Appear and act "older" than you are and most people will assume you are as you appear and act. When the "truth" does come out, you will already have established a positive reputation for your maturity.
Personally I had this same sort of thing happen to me a few years ago. I worked in a telecommunications company at their call center. I had some previous admin experience but no training and so I went into the company as a call center rep. Within six months I made it to Major Account Rep status, unfortunately I was 10 years younger and had about 3 years less seniority than the youngest person on the Major Accounts team. I ended up mostly staying to myself. I made enemies quickly because I started finding all of my coworkers mistakes (i.e. sleeping on the job, sending out the wrong equipment, taking work home, bad mouthing the company to existing customers, giving away free services/equipment, etc.).
I also made enemies with the local lan admin because I had pointed out that users could install games on their system. She insisted quite loudly to all of the management that they could not, that she had taken that privilage away. The next day I sent her screen shots of it being done. A week or two later she quit.
Next I pissed of the Director of the call center by asking in a town hall/q & a meeting, how we were going to improve the communication between local outlets and the call center so that customers got some consistency. That little question just about got me fired. The director didn't think that there was a communication problem he thought the outlets were doing fine (that's where he came from before becoming call center director). He asked my boss to basically set me up for failure by putting me into a position that I would not be able to perform adequately i.e. management. So after 8 months with the company I became the Quality Assurance manager. At ten months the director had quit (greener pastures).
I was young and what some people might see as arrogant and cocky. The problem I had was that if I saw a problem I tackled it, I told anyone who was involved, I wanted the problem solved, and I didn't stop until it was finished. It gave me a bad reputation because people don't like having their failures exposed. I personally have no such pride, if I fail tell me I've failed so that I can correct it and be better. Otherwise I will end up some 40+ mediocre worker reading the paper and/or napping when I should be doing real work and not coasting on the company dime.
My point? If you present a work ethic that is consistent, dutiful, and motivated by the needs of the company and take the slow steady pace of waiting him out he will either come to at least tollerate you or he may make a mistake that exits him (not you) from the company.
That's a bit like getting rid of black people because whites can't handle it. Tell your boss to fight the discrimination, not the target of it. What's he gonna do when they get jealous of a woman who has a better position than them? Fire her?
Reading this post makes me so very happy that I work at a small startup that has NO politics like this. Sheesh!
"And like that
If you've approached your manager with the same pile of BS that you approached Slashdot:
"I'm 19 years old with 5 years industry experience"
You shouldn't be surprised that he's trying to get rid of you. That statement alone sort of underscores your ignorance. Incase you missed it, it implies that you've been working at a 6-to-5 job that actually _matters_ since the age of 14.
Warezing != "industry experience".
Upgrading AOL on your dad's computer != "industry experience".
Having a personal webpage != "industry experience".
Its like this, spudboy.."industry experience" means sleeping on the floor of your office overnight because you need to babysit half a dozen mission-critical AIX, Solaris and IRIX boxes following a complete power-failure and network outage, because if you dont, the entire department's workload might grind to a halt, and the company will lose $30,000 per minute until its fixed. Many people here have seen and dealt with that sort of thing. No offense, but I doubt you have seen anything similar during your "5 years of industry experience".
Here's another way to look at it --- I've been coding since about the age of 4. Yes, 4. And no, i'm not kidding. (Hell, my parents still have one of my "Apple ][ Operators License" picture IDs in a photo album from when I was in 2nd grade..) Now, do you think I would put "I'm 27 years old and have 23 years industry experience" on my resume'?
Nuff said.
Bowie J. Poag
I just wanted to emphasize what I've seen before ... people (both young and old) who are intellegent, but who don't quite understand the workplace.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Another thing to keep in mind is that I used to think *exactly* the same thing as you do. I'm young, they're old, they're jealous and thats why they don't like me. I was wrong!
The problem was my bad attitude. I had a rotton attitude that stemmed from a feeling that I though I was younger and smarter and better than everyone else. It sounds like you have the same attitude. It could be the real problem.
Don't get me wrong, you can run into people who are legitamitely jealous of your skills, I'm pretty sure I have. Most people won't be though. I've found that the most important thing for you to do is work hard, be helpful to your co-workers and get you assigned taks done. A good employee brings up the performance of everyone around them. An arogant employee can bring down the performance of everyone around them. Being dependible is also *HUGE*. A prima donna sysadmin that only does what they like, not what they are assigned isn't good for any company, especially a big one. Most people don't really care about your age but a superior attiude can piss off an entire devision of people. No single employee is worth ruining the morale of an entire group of people.
Just work hard and be nice to everyone. Remember when you get pissed off that you are all on the same team and you are all going in the same direction. If you truely have the skill then you probably see horrible things about to happen and get emotional about them. Don't! It's business, it's not personal. You are all on the same team. You are all going in the same direction. Calmly explain your fears and then sit back and let the horrible thing happen. Then say I told you so. It sounds childish but unless you are the boss that's the way you have to do it. After a couple of those people won't think of you as a hot headed kid. They will fear your disapproval because it means the project is likely to fail. You can't get that from superior skills alone. Only time can build a reputation like that among your pears.
Another thing to keep in mind is that in this job market it seems to me that you always get rewarded for your hard work but not unitl you switch jobs. There is a kind of *next job karma* in the world where whatever busting your ass you do in this job will be compensated in your next one. Remember to note your particularly impressive accomplishments in your resume. That's how the karma usually get's passed on.
set softtabstop=4 shiftwidth=4 expandtab nocp worlddomination
Thinking everyone is jealous of you and touting that you have more experience would make me want to fire you. Get a better attitude spermshitter.
I was once in a similar situation when I was your age, although, it wasn't as severe. Here are some options you may have not considered:
1. Confront the IT Director, but do it discreetly. For instance, meantion that you've been hearing some employees are dissatified with your work or your attitude, and what you could do to retify the situation. Or ask him why he feels he's dissatified with your work performance. If you really want to see him squirm, ask him for guidance! If he sees that you will confront him, he'll be less to try to stab you in the back. If he is going to HR and doesn't confront you, he sounds like a real squirrel, and won't have the guts to follow through. Especially if you keep confronting him. By confronting him you show him who is wearing the pants!
2. You can confront HR directly. Tell them that you been hearing rumors about that some execs. are dissatified with your work, and you want to know what your doing wrong. Tell them that you don't like when people bad mouth you behind your back, and that if anyone has a problem they should confront you directly. Tell them if they feel that you're not doing your job, you want to know why so you can fix the problem. Do this professionaly, don't burst in unannouced, schedule an appointment with HR.
Don't stand idle and let people walk all over you. Confront the issue. Make them see that your not just some young whipper-snapper that they can push around. Remember always to be professional when you confront them. Don't give them any reason to validate their prejudice that your nothing more that a boy.
If they continue to work behind your back, then maybe this job isn't for you? You have to ask yourself: Should I stay in a job where I am not appriciated? Should I stay and deal with the problem because I feel I am getting valuable work experience or knowledge which will help my career in the long run. Or do I really like working here, except for this one issue? Leaving should be your last option. Don't let them win by leaving with out a fight!
If that IT director really wants to make you quit, he's pretty stupid. If your 19 and you can are really good, you would be a valuable asset, because: 1. Your salary is most likely much lower than the 30 somethings. 2. You probably don't have any preset notiations about technology and you question everything (which is a good thing). 3. I bet you're eager to learn new things. There is no job too big for your shoes.
Good Luck
Oh, what the heck. Here goes anyhow.
./ asking for advice.) Eat some humble pie, learn how you can improve, and you may get there in another 19 years.
Five years experience and you're 19? Like several others have said, no way. Unless, of course, you dropped out of junior high and started working full time, which I doubt. Ask your boss and HR people how they count years of experience, and restate yours to match their standards.
Sue them? Well, count on paying a lawyer a few hundred bucks to ask him a few questions. You could save it to pay for your baby, but you're pissed, right? Then drop it. You're unlikely to make out like a bandit, and you're very likely to taint yourself (for suing your employer) so badly nobody will ever hire you except as a temp or consultant again.
Confront the bastard. Well, you can. Most 19-year-olds don't have the maturity and self-control to pull this one off, but you may be the exception. If you do, figure out what your goal is and how you're going to get there ahead of time. Two more hints: First, you won't win if you threaten him, and probably won't if you try to convert the IT guy on the spot by jawing at him.
Second, if you want to win a confrontation, you should ask him (and your immediate boss, too) how you can improve your performance. Tell him you have a kid on the way, and you're serious about trying to be the best employee he has, and has him how to do that. Ask him why he wants to get rid of you, and what you can do to improve so that he wants to keep you. If you don't get any response there, try the IT director's boss, one level up, with the same approach. Then listen, write down what he says, and get to work on those suggestions.
You may want to become a "Master of the Universe," but you obviously are not in a position to get there by acting like one. (For one thing, masters of the universe don't bring their problems to
Are your grammar and dress in line with the rest of your company? The dot.bust has come, and you may be trying to get away with last year's mannerisms. Don't push it too hard. Khakis and no ties you can justify if you routinely crawl around behind machines or lug monitors around. Torn t-shirts and holes in your jeans may chafe a raw spot somewhere up the hierarchy. Keep that up only if you want to remind them you're a special case. The special case they may want to get rid of.
Or quit. Just make sure you have another job lined up before you go. Be sure that if you take this route, you are going to leave. You can look for other work, and test the waters, on your lunch hour or before/after work. But you're not trying to get a raise, you want a job. If you get an offer, you're out of there.
I have done what The Pi-Guy and Brento suggest, which is talk to the management to why I'm still waiting. They, of course say it has nothing to do with my age but simply beaurocracy... thats not hard to believe for a university position, but 18 months without any new progress? In that time I've gained another cert and SO much more. Further, the HR rules of interviewing negate me from having another interview because of "equal opertunity/affirmative action" laws (I have yet to ask how that works).
I believe that the reason I haven't been given the job yet is because I've worked the same job since I was 17 and they saw a completely different person back then, admittadly I was cocksure and immature (I call it youthful exuberance with a bit of job-related skill). I don't believe I am going to shake this reputation so I'm actively looking for another job for after graduation and of COURSE they are shocked to hear this. Bosses blame the economly, blame beaurocracy, and generally never tell _you_ the truth about your character and how it relates to the job. Perhaps fulltime employment shouldn't be something 18-20 y/o's should seek.
Then there was the overly large percentage of the little &#@$*$&#, whose existence only served to reenforce the stereotype from the company at large of younger folk being a bunch of slackers. I think back now on how I was considered 'uncool' after taking out a couple and working them over after they could not be reasoned with. I was an 'uncle tom' to the younger crowd. Oh well, little scumbags are probably still losers.... probably the very losers that are over 30 and leeching off some company while preventing younger workers from being able to contribute.
Now I do have a modern dilemma that may seem on the other side. ( I am 28 ). I have worked my ass off, contributed much and done my best to keep the ship afloat in rough times. I have constantly worked above and beyond what the requirement is, simply because I can't stand producing crap and have tried to present lessons from all over the spectrum of business to help us. Yet, when a new project came along, the management felt it necessary to hire several brand new employees that had little to no experience, and where only 20 and 19. The age itself was not a problem, just simply that all things being equal, why would you pay the younger ones more? Also, take into consideration the actual experience (and by that I mean actual business experience not just, "uhhh, I played with HTML" or something)
And of course there is the maturity. I realize that there are two kinds of maturity, chronological and mental. Regardless of any stereotypes, if you have a group of employees of a particular age that do the bare minimum and ones of another age that go above and beyond and seem to grasp the larger picture, it is not hard to see how stereotypes and generalities can form. However, nothing would excuse blatant targeting of someone for some superficial reason.
Lets not jump on the discrimination bandwagon just yet. What if the submitter has good technical skills (albeit in a limited set) but does not yet have a good systems level grasp of the whole enchilada? What if that person who has good skill does not operate in a team environment well? I don't know the person, so I can't say, but lets not jump on the knee jerk bandwagon just yet please.
A bit of modesty will go a long way.
Now I don't know you, but I am hearing some familiar themes in your story. I've seen way too many teenagers and early twenty-somethings who break into IT at a young age and think they know as much or more than the people who have been around the block a few more times. Maybe you do. But guess what? The attitude sucks. You're young. Keep your mouth shut about your qualifications, and let the quality of your work do all the bragging for you. If you are really that good other people will take notice, and it is the 30-something crowd that would fear for their jobs NOT YOU.
Once, only once, in my career did I see a person so young (17 actually) that was probably more able than anyone around him. But we all loved to have him around. Why? He was humble. He liked to watch other people work and learn from it. He would approach you in a humble way and suggest improvements that, 9 times out of 10, were worthwhile. He got his work done faster than anyone else and with a higher quality. Unfortunately we lost him when he decided to go to Virginia Tech for college. I hired him under a mentorship program while he was still a junior in high school and would spend half days with us.
As good as he was, he didn't do anywhere near as much boasting as you. He didn't have to. We were so pleased with his work that no one would consider firing him. And he never stepped on anyone's toes.
Hey dude,
I can understand that you are upset with what you perceive to be the current situation. However, take a step back and look at it from a critical point of view. Before changing to the IT field in 1996, my accomplishments included running a large food company as Operations Chief, and then co-owning a factory. Granted that the fields are different, but I believe that the past experience plus the current experience as a junior sysadmin and systems troubleshooter, allows me some weight in commenting. b.t.w. I am 37.
First, I think it is great that you got the position. At your age that is a huge plus.You must have accomplished a lot for them to even consider you.
Second, as a former boss I'm aware of the discrimination laws and you really do not have a case. You are in the position already so they didn't discriminate in hiring practices. Nor are you being actively acted against because of your age.
K- here are the comments that might be helpful:
At 37, it is refreshing to work with younger and older people. We all have something to offer. Our IT team works with the Gov't and a few of them are in the early 20's. We value their input and their opinions. Age is not considered
Therefore, some factors must have been either discovered, i.e. let's say about your personality and ability to be a team player; or created, i.e. did you act in an immature manner or criticize others for mistakes.
How well do you take criticism?
Your boss might like you personally but perhaps some items have come to his attention. Your post sounds very defensive, you might be showing this at work and treating your coworkers with suspicion and paranoia.
How do you dress? How well do you speak and communicate with others? Being a sysadmin is more than pounding the keyboard. How is your command of the English language? As a sysadmin you are setting examples and will be held to a higher standard.
Has your company experienced growth? Perhaps newer technologies and economic advances within the company demand someone with either a different skillset or more business savvy.
Have you been watching the bottom line? Keeping an eye on ROI? Submitting reports on time? Are you a team player? How well do you integrate the ideas of others? Your post sounds like its a "me against them" relationship. You arent running the place alone there are many others in IT who are the backbone. Do you value them and give them your time? How do you spend your time at work? You might work fast but what do you do in the downtime? Do you pick up the slack and pitch in or do you stay aloof, maybe even playing games.
Have you done something outlandish that might be perceived as immature? Do you demonstrate mood swings? At your age, mood swings would be seen different than if they were demonstarted in an older employee.
Do you drink? take drugs? talk about drinking and drugs? [ no offense meant, its just that everywhere drugs are not cool- the Govt has just denied school funds from 43,000 college kids because of past drug history]
Do you contribute to weekly or monthly meetings? Have you saved the company money or submitted reports explaining how you saved money or accomplished a given set of tasks?
Have you brought a weapon to work? You might be showing off that new knife or your skills with nunchakus-- your boss and coworkers might feel different. Do you joke about violent actions?
Do you talk excessively about religion? politics? ethnic groups? Are you ON TIME at work? Do you leave early or right at the stroke of the clock?
Do you work hard? Remember that your boss is not your friend. That kind of relationship is separate from his/her being a boss. Over time the boss might become your friend, but a good boss keeps business separate.
After work, with whom do you associate? Have you been caught cracking? Using the company telephones or machines in a personal manner? What is the yearly gross of the company? Do you speak of your coworkers in a critical manner? Do you follow company policy? How did you react when you f*cked something up? We all have so don't be shy.
Discipline and how we react to it is a strong indicator of business and personal maturity.
Finally, just take all of this into consideration and think from an objective point of view. You could approach your boss at a lull in the work day and suggest a meeting with him/her to discuss your work record and performance. Explain that you want to improve and are seeking constructive criticism.
I read the article and the ensueing comments. I was rather surprised that nobody mentioned people skills. In any field of endeavor, you can have the sharpest technical skills, the broadest knowledge, the best work habits, but without people skills, you are just another piece of shark bait. If you have not considered inproving your people skills, then you need to get together with the current boss and request training for people skills. Dale Carnegie courses and other similar "people skills" courses will do more for your case than anything else. In your job as "sysadmin/network guru", if you lack the skill to talk to the people using the systems that you are responsible for, it is little wonder that the company is looking for a replacement.
This just means that no matter what age, Geeks are ego tripping idiots that need to be knocked down a peg.
You say your boss likes you, but your boss also tells you that the IT director wants to get rid of you? That's weird -- the IT director is going to get rid of a valuable employee over his immediate boss's objections? What could be causing that? Maybe your boss is not being completely honest with you (could it be that he wants to get rid of you and shift the blame to someone else so he can save himself some guilt when it comes time to fire you?). I'm not saying that's the case, since I don't know the circumstances, but I think you need to consider what may really be happening vs. what people are telling you.
You also say "everywhere I work...as soon as they learn my age they automatically hate me." That's really odd. I can understand some level of jealousy, and even one or two companies that are full of bozos who dislike young whippersnappers like you, but if you are finding this in a variety of different work environments then there may be something else going on. If you are really performing and able to work with people, most companies wouldn't care about your age. Since you are basically saying that your age is ALWAYS a problem, I think you have to ask whether your age -- or more precisely your attitude, level of maturity, or other things that come with your age -- REALLY IS a problem. (I don't say this to be cruel; I was also a precocious kid, was managing six people by age 23, etc; this is my perspective as a now-30-something who knows he made plenty of stupid mistakes in his youth.)
Two suggestions. First, start by making a really candid assessment of the situation, starting with your own behavior. What could you have been doing that would lose you points with your boss, your boss's boss, your coworkers, or other people in the company instead of winning points? Could it be that you make them feel dumb? (There's sometimes a fine line between helping people out and being an obnoxious know-it-all.) Could it be that you don't behave in a "professional" manner? Could you be really full of yourself? (There's a big difference between telling people your age and flaunting it.) Could it be that you actually made decisions, or advocate positions, that are bad for the company? (In my experience, this is a common one among young people who are very smart but lack business wisdom -- they may get all up in arms because they're convinced they have the Right Answer about some technical issue, but they fail to consider the larger business concerns.)
Second, take pre-emptive action. If you think you might get fired, you need to be ready with an alternative. Polish up your resume, get in touch with old contacts who might know where you could find a new position (referrals are always much better than answering random want ads or Monster postings), etc. But be careful not to neglect your responsibilities in the meantime -- you want to be a model employee. And DO NOT talk about this with anyone other than your immediate boss! Being a chatterbox will only reinforce any image of you as immature.
Personally I wouldn't suggest legal recourse, because I doubt you'll really get anywhere with it. There's not a whole lot of precedent I'm aware of (IANAL, of course) for "reverse" age discrimination, and furthermore, actually proving that's what led to your firing (should it come to that) might be really difficult. It certainly won't exactly be something you'll want to brag about to your next employer.
Good luck.
"Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
Geez, the last place I worked fired me for no good reason.
All I was trying to do was install a gloryhole in the office bathroom -- and I explained to them several times - in writing even, why we NEEDED one, but they just wouldnt listen. No room in the budget my eye!
Some places it just doesnt pay to take the initiative yourself.
It seems to me like this is the "Hi, I'm 19-24, never went to college, am a kick ass programmer with TONS of experience but am stuck professionally! HELP!!!!" week.
I don't intend to offend you, but you must know some things:
1. Face it: college is IMPORTANT. Go study now while you still can. You may argue that you're married with kids now, but you're still young -- don't wait until you're 30 to say "I should've gone to college back when I was 20 and could".
2. Programming is cool, but it's not everything that matters. Once you learn calculus, statistics and logic you'll have better ways to solve problems. You'll see that there are solutions other than brute force.
3. Programming can be extremely easy next to mathematics. It's often much simpler to devise something that "just works" rather than developing it carefully and proving why it's the best solution.
4. Cutting and pasting perl/php for 5 years doesn't count as real work. Nor does assembling computers/networks. Just installing and updating software doesn't count as professional system administration.
5. The computer stuff you did in high school doesn't count as real world experience.
6. Whether you like it or not, most companies will NEVER consider you and most professionals won't respect you if you don't have a degree. You will keep losing arguments even though you're right.
7. You'll never know how much you lack unless you go to college.
In short, you may be stuck professionally for a reason other than age discrimination. Perhaps being a kick ass programmer isn't all that matters.
Since I don't know you I hope you won't take this personally...it's just something to consider.
I started working in IT full time when I was 16 (I graduated from HS early). I felt I was being discriminated against because of my age a lot over the years, and I know many times I was right. Looking back however I realize I wasn't as experienced or mature as I thought, and while I think I was exceptionally good at my job, that lack of maturity and experience kept me from being promoted as I felt I deserved.
One thing I learned is that people will often tell you something like "the boss just doesn't like you because of xxxx" when really they don't want to tell you the truth, which is "you are too immature to work here". A few of my younger friends over the years got fired because they were simply too immature, but that's not what they were told. People don't want to hurt your feelings, so they sometimes tell you something that will hurt less, or is easier to say.
Ok, having said that...even if it is discrimination, all you can do is try to be mature about it. If they are going to treat you lousy, find another place to work. In my experience (I'm 29 now) some people can deal with a young person who is technically bright better than others. You will enjoy working with those people the most.
...they couldn't possibly discriminate based on attitude, ego, or even plain incompetence.
:-)
Not at age 19! At age 19, one has a team-spirited attitude, is humble, and is Lord and Liege Master of the Universe!
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
I don't really see how this got modded as 'insightful' mainly because anyone that works in corporate America knows that rocking the boat is not a good thing to do, especially if you're interested in keeping your job. In my experience in the workplace, there are usually pretty strong cliques and you're either in one or you're not. It sucks, it's a sad fact of life, but it's true.
It might be the 'right thing to do' for this guys boss to stick up for him, but doing so will probably jeopardize his own position. You can't just go around voicing opinions that are in conflict with other people in the organization and expect not to piss some people off. I wouldn't blame the guy one bit for keeping his mouth shut, especially if he has a wife, 2.5 kids, a couple cars and a house.
My advice for the 19 year old would be 1.) try and work out the conflict with the guy that wants him fired, 2.) quit and end up leaving on your own terms instead of his, or 3.) try and get the guy that wants him fired, fired.
It has recently come to my attention that our IT Director is trying to either find a way to get rid of me or transfer me into a miserable job position, all because of my age. My Boss explained to me he thinks it has to do with a bit of jealousy. Everyone I work with is over the age of 30 and the IT director is in his mid 40's.
:)
:) 2) Your direct boss is always %#$@$head, you'd understand when you are somebody's boss.
However, I think there's story behind the story, at least I've reason to believe that the IT director might not want to get rid of you because of your age.
It might be your own attitude and the degree of confidence they've on you. You might have shown your attitude to others because you think they were not as young and as smart as you. Given all these, management do not have confidence giving you anything important. (It happened to my first job, at the time I thought I were very smart and in fact I were, but that became a blindspot for me - well, many people has that problem in their first job) Most people learnt to work with people soon after, but few would become arrogant bastards as we know them.
Second, your direct boss might have lied to you. Your IT Director might not want to get rid of you - all he cares is whether someone could give value to the company. The jealousy might be coming from no other but your direct boss. Who is most hurted if you got management attention and promoted? Guess what, not the IT Director, but your boss.(I've the experience in my current %$@# job. It's always the case the one you most trusted is the one who backstabbing you.)
Therefore, I feel like hearing my own story when hearing yours. Now you must bear in mind 1) if you think you are young and smart, it's unavoidable you *must* work with someone who are old and dumb. Be nice to them.
If you don't fit in your current job (which is what this really sounds like), you should quit. Your boss will probably give you a good letter of recommendation, since you read the situation correctly and didn't put up a big, useless fight. Yes - you heard me. Professional integrity is good, personal integrity can be counterproductive until you are the boss. If you bring in legal arguments about discrimination, you might get to stay, but you will probably lose respect unless you made a very good case.
The other thing you can do (if you want to stay and prosper), is to address the conflict maturely. Talk to your boss about how you can improve relations with other co-workers and upper management. It is important that you don't get too emotional, but convey that you feel this is a problem that is detrimental to all parties. It is.
Ask him about what you can do better.
This is a question we should all ask. Whenever there is a problem, it is not wise to point fingers. Solve the problem, and then later figure out how you can stop the problem from arising again. If you've had your toes stepped on, use your judgement when dealing with this. It can be a good opportunity to show personal growth, rather than blind vengeance.
Then again, this advice might not apply to your circumstances and environment. Talk about it if you really want to stay, otherwise pack up your things and leave.
Oh - and "aspiring linux guru" is a very good keyword in resume.
Stop the brainwash
I find that no matter how useless a degree in CS is and how dumb most people (that I've seen) are that have that paper it seems to be the undisputible way of keeping a higher paying job or getting a higher paid job.
I've seen people who had jobs far better than I because they where qualified not neccessarily because they were intelligent. For instance the engineer at a place I used to work for had his Degree in CS and well one day on his first day he called me into the office and asked me how to make a foler in Windows NT.
To this I have no comment.
So whats my point, your young, the older ones are afraid of you because you take their jobs away. Well get your degree. thats about it, or some kind of academic paper be it a diploma or something and then work towards your degree, useless papers that cost tens of thousands of dollars can go a long way.
I had a similar experience at a large meat packing plant who has a catchy little tune about thier hot dogs and a car that looks like them as well. Thier processes on corporate side were horrible. Whoever put them in place was using too much crack. I was blantantly told "You're just a kid what do you know." I was the youngest working in my dept by at least 6 years. Other Co-workers would bring it up to management, management wouldn't listen because they felt they were getting thier ideas from me.
Long story short, look for another job. It's not worth being in that shitty environment. They will hold the age thing over your head if they can. Look for another job that can appreciate you for your talents. You'll be a lot happier, not worrying about bosses trying to get you fired. Plus if you are fired you won't sound bad in an interview stating "They fired me because my manager was jealous of me."
Slashdot # 199661 the number that's the same upside down and right side up
I do infact have 5 years real world experience, I was home schooled and graduated at age 15, I would have gone onto college but my parents did not have the money to send me, plus I was a young kid and figured , wow "I could get a job and get a car". I started off at age 15 working at Best Buy Inc as A PC Tech. Please, no jokes about working at Best Buy it was a start.
Secondly, this has nothing to do with my performance or lack there of, I can show you my 6 month review my Boss the IT manager did and it's is damn near perfect. No review can be 100% perfect though, everyone knows this. I don't act my age at work, I all ways act older. I am constantly on the ball because I love my daughter more then life and losing my job would affect her greatly, all the fathers out here will vouch to this.
Lastly, I am not one for legal action, now if I get fired and I honestly know it is because of my age, I will definetly get a lawyer, it takes money to feed and put a roof over a family. Im not talking millions of dollars for discrimination, Im talking just severance, enough for me to find a new job and get on my feet. Besides if they dont want me it's their lose.
*Thanks to all the Slashdoter's out there that are offering good advice, especially the ladies. My daughter and wife also thank you !
To the flaming trolls, grow up !
*My first ever slashdot submission that was successful, wuu huu !
So this is what I don't understand. You say running a few Linux computers and screwing around doesn't count as real world experience. Well, ok. I understand that, although I think that screwing around with a few machines can certainly boost your skills more than one might think if you get into it.
My question is this. If that's the case, how the hell does someone without a degree ever get an IT job? And I know they do. Every job I see wants at least 2 years experience. Is is supposed to be next to impossible to get into this crap?
Remember the Gates Gansta' Saying:
"keep your friends close but your enemies closer".
I am a youngin' in the power division of a big company. I had some disagreements with my direct supervisor, who is twice my age, I took the initiative to use a company service that provides each employee with 6 counseling sessions a year. I went to just one session and discussed how to get along with those in office that don't like me or that I have personal conflicts with. I made sure to discuss my roles in these issues. I covertly let a different superior know that I had taken the initiative to do this. After going to this I had a better idea how to handle my interaction with my direct supervisor and I was better able to talk to him about what his problems were. Turns out that I had made some bad decisions myself and the evil PHB wasn't solely to blame.
Two reasons why this was important. One, if you feel you are being slighted by those around you it is an excellent way to document and record the discrimination you are facing and is admissible evidence in a court of law. Second, it shows that you are willing and able to take initiative to work on your own short comings.
You might also this: Tell your office manager/big boss person exactly how you feel about what you think is happening. Tell him you are contemplating talking to an outside counselor or the company counseling service. Ask him to facilitate a discussion between you and the IT Manager. This way you have a good reference from the big boss man if you get fired by the IT Manager. If it works out, and you get the issues on the table then your work environment is that much less stressful and you can at least co-exist for a period while you find different means of employment.
I can easily believe what he is saying about his experience. I'm currently 22 and started my own company when I was 15. Before that I did work for friends and I think all of that counts at industry experience. Granted it's small potatos to the kind of things most of us do now but it is still experience.
- Brian
Discrimination like this will always happen, no matter what century; in fact, I think it might be better to call it 'jelousy' than 'discrimination.'
In any case, your best choice is to get out now. Look at the two possible outcomes:
1. He succeeds: you get fired. Then you have to explain the situation to other employers, who might just think you are making up a story to justify termination.
2. You prevent him from dumping you through legal means. Well, congradulations; now you have a guy who hates you for the rest of your life, and will do every little thing he can to sabatoge you. Sounds like a great place to work!
I had the same problem with my old job. I am currently 20 and left my other job a few months ago. Things went wrong from the start.....had a boss that made me sweep floor pack boxes and build racking when I applied for a laptop repair job..then moved to another department doing basic tech support to get told about the cost of living for my age and barly getting minimum wage...Then had a supervisor doing the same exams as me and because i passed them and he didn't became subject of victimisation (actually getting told to stop taking the exams). Then to top it off had a job building servers.....this was fun as no training was supplied even though i had to get 4-5 servers out the door a day.... I think they only thing keeping me going was my exams and looking for other jobs....
Early days yet I know i have a lot more work issues to get through in the future....but I will never have a company tell me what i can and can not learn again.
.
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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire
I have a friend who is confrontational in her workplace, and she wonders why she is on her third job in one year. Getting into it with someone senior to you isn't going to do anything but expedite your ejection.
Continue doing your job to the best of your ability.
If you still think they want to get rid of you, start brushing up your resume and quietly looking for a better working environment.
No matter what you decide, always do your best work, right up until you leave, and always keep your attitude in check.
Remember, this is your career and your reputation you are trying to protect.
What I'm assuming is that you either don't yet have a college degree or are still trying to get one. Unfortunately, most corporations place a huge amount of emphasis on having that piece of paper. In my work, I've had to avoid hiring perfectly qualified people because they don't have that degree. When the lay-off axe comes a swingin', the first to go are those without college degrees.....That's just the way it is...
Sit back and relax as Windows 98 installs on your computer.
it is possible to have 5 years experience by the time you turn 19.
here is how i did it.
for all of high school i was lead student tech, installed 50 macs, ran cat 5 and thinnet segments, administered VMS system, then in college, lab work keeping 40 boxen of various types playing nice with each other. I turned 19 my sophomore year of college, by which point I counted 6 years of work that was applicable to my field (ie: not McDonalds). granted, the experience is not a 9 to 5 world grade experience, and i never presented it as such, but it did help having people see it on the resume and be curious about it. just food for thought.
as for the discrimination, if you worry too much you get way too paranoid. i have been in similar situations, where there was a lot of talk, but no real action, i was known as "The Kid" on a testing team, and really didn't mind. it was just friendly joshing. so take a step back and examine your situation before totally spazzing.
Over the next ten years or so, I'm sure we'll see a boom in those who claim to be 18 or so and have 5+ years experience. After all, computers are so easy to get hold of today, and learning about them is relativly simple, too.
I'm 13 and started dabbling with Linux when I was 11.. but I don't claim to be some 31337 h4x0r d00d. Instead I put my time to better use, such as learning more. Notice how younger people who do know and understand what they are doing never seem to speak up. Sure, by posting this I'll probably be tarred with the same brush and labelled just another dumb kid, but there are some people, like me, who want to learn with the right attitude. Where is the hacker (in the proper meaning) culture going if the younger generation can't be encouraged to follow the right path?
Please don't be as prejudiced towards everyone in the 10-14 age bracket; there are some who are not lame crackers with nothing better to do than play elite and cause trouble.
I speak for those who are the same age as the eejits of 12-yo script kiddies, but cringe at the thought of their tarnishing of the image of the younger generation in computing.
(Thanks for reading.)
--
freelin.org - GNU/Linux on CD, free
A lab where I used to work actually boasted of hiring engineers fresh out of school, using them until they burned out, then letting them go. The corporate age was under 25.
Another sad practice is hiring someone with lots of qualifications and initiative even if they don't match the corporate standard, let them fix what is wrong, then let them go so that more acceptable (age, social status, educational background, etc.) workers can take over. You can tell if this is the case as typically you will be replaced by two or more workers (my record is 3.5!).
If you see yourself as having played either of these roles, the best you can do is to chalk it up to experience and look elsewhere. Even bad experience counts as experience. 8^)
Being a young sysadmin with a bunch of young sysadmin friends, I can honestly tell you that this sort of thing happens pretty often, some crotchety old bugger getting pissed off when he realizes that someone half his age is making nearly as much money as he is.
Your best bet at this point is probably to quit and go find a job elsewhere that pays more, which will likely send your stupid coworkers into whole new levels of pissed off. Good luck.
I wonder why his boss would like to see him gone. Remember, perception IS reality. We had a youngin' start where we are - he liked to keep his own hours, work on his own stuff, not a real team player. Once we had an 'intervention' with him we understood where he was coming from and he understood where us 'old timers' were coming from. He liked having flexible hours (no problem) and working alone (problem). We worked it out that he could work at his pace IF the work he was assigned was getting done. Since we have a lot of systems and are a 24x7x365 shop we had figured out a way that the 'normal working hour folks' could pass an issue to him on his 'off-hours'. This has worked out great AND he is now actually MUCH more of a team player and we allow more folks to work 'odd hours'.
In a nut shell, get the issues out in the open. It will make everyone happier in the end even IF you end up leaving. DON'T burn bridges. The world is far too small.
"If you are on fire you can just stop, drop, and roll. If you fall into Lava you are just dead." - my 5yr old daughter
I work in the film industry and I have the exact same problem. I'm 22 and most of the people I work with are 30's and 40's. I just tread lightly and after have worked there for 1 1/2 years I have made it through the rough. Just give it time and work hard people will eventually respect you.
My company hired me and the president of the company has a grudge against me. Maybe it's jealously, maybe he's just not around me enough get a grasp on my personality.
Needless to say, the best way to get a promotion is to quit and get a new job. Seriously. The good ol' boy mentality that unions and massive corporations can afford aren't so afforded by smaller and medium sized companies.
Go to college like the rest of us!
I'm 19 too. I'm a software engineer, programmer, and web developer. I was hired when I was 17 right after I graduated from high school.
I'm the only person there who really has a good grip on the intricacies of the front end of the application that we're developing, and yet the project manager has tried to get rid of me twice.
I've got the lowest salary in there, which I'm not really complaining about, but the fact that they don't give me any respect really bothers me, especially because of some of the situation that they've put me in.
Here's an example:
4 days before I was going in for a major operation they told me and another guy that we had to fix a few problems or they'll fire us. Well, had we not fixed those problems the company would have probably lost the contract that they were working on.
If I quit or get fired, everyone in there won't have a clue what to do when something happens.
Well your situation will get better with time. At least you are getting discriminated based on being too young. Its worse in IT when you are in your mid forties. Everyone in my office is in their 30s and many seem suspicious of code/ideas from guys with gray hair. Most managers dont want to manage anyone older than themselves and its harder to just 'job hop' the problem away when you have a mortgage and kids.
Give me a break. In one of my previous positions I worked as a systems administrator for the EE dept in a major university. I had several interns. They worked for little to no money. They work 12-14 hour days, some of them as young as 15. They did good, solid work (better than some "professionals" I've worked alongside.) and worked hard. When we lost power during a thunderstorm, they were onsite right along with me. Admittedly most of them only did summer work, but a couple were no longer in high school, and did it full time.
Maybe you don't consider this "real world experience" but I sure do. They got paid horrible wages, to do professional quality work, they got discriminated against for being so young (they didn't count as full time university employees.) and they had to deal with the professors in the dept. because the "manager" of our group didn't manage. (Instead, I had to pick up that slack, unofficially.)
So don't tell me kids that young can't gather real world experience. Maybe he's exaggerating how much he has, but I'm pretty sure everyone I know does.
--jeh
Please don't get me wrong, but I think being young surrounded by older people it is often easy to think they must be singuling you out because of your age, rather than perhaps other problems- reliability, suitability for the job...
I am not for one moment suggesting that you are unreliable, but I am wondering how much you are dismissing the problem without further consideration. If you have the relevant experience, qualifications and good work ethic there is absolutely no reason why age should be a difficulty, particularly as an employer merely wants the best staff possible, irrespective of whether they are young, old, different religion, race etc etc. An employer will not jeopodise his company purely in discriminate grounds, and I feel sure that your perhaps imminent dismissal will be for other grounds.
It would seem strange that they could overlook a problem such as age when you first got the job for it to be a problem now. It may simply be used as an easy excuse for your dismissal, had you not been young another difficulty would have been used as the reason.
I hope you do not find this post too accusing, I simply think that people are too ready to point their fingers directly at one cause- that of discrimination, rather than look around the problem. It is not for us at slashdot to speculate reasons and give advice as to how to overcome these difficulties, since we cannot possibly know the nature of yourself, your work, and your employers.
And as much as it sucks, federally there is nothing you can do. The EEO laws state that age discrimination applies to 40 and above. The best thing you can do at this point is check your state laws to see if there is something that can be done.
A third option you might have is to get a hold of your representatives in the house and senate. While there may be nothing that could be done to help you, you might be able to get laws past that could help others.
But more than likely, if they want you gone, they will find some way to do it that is legal. A director isn't a director because he/she fell into it, they are a director because they have survived, and they know what it takes to make it through.
Good luck. Sounds like you are going to need it.
Random Musings
I have had 2 non-IT jobs in which a manager/boss/whatever actively disliked me and not only acted to get rid of me, but to make me feel like crap. One of them would outright lie to his superior in front of me about my performance. I'm not talking about subjective things, where he could have just had a different opinion... I'm talking about he would say "Mike did not do task such and such" when it was something I had completed perfectly and he knew that I had, or something along those lines.
Eventually I hated my job even worse than I did otherwise, and was ready to quit. But then this particular manager had to have some knee surgery or something and was gone for quite a while, like 3 months. Suddenly my job became tolerable. I was doing a good job, the people around me acknowledged that I was doing a good job, and everything was OK.
Then the manager returned. HIS FIRST DAY BACK, he called me into his office and gave me a written warning type thing about some complete and utter bullshit. As soon as he was done, I left the building and never went back.
(The other manager, by the way, at another job, never lied because there was no one else to lie to, but he would jump on me at the SLIGHTEST mistake. I have never heard anyone else in a work environment call someone "idiot", "moron", "dumbass", etc...)
Start your own consulting business by yourself.... The only problem for me, is when my boss sexualy herasses me whenever I'm alone with a fast internet conection....
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
Oh yeah, listen to all those idiots talk about "...starting a dialogue...", "...go to your boss...", "...confront that (idiot) IT Director...", and what is this AGE DISCRIMINATION CRAP??
As a rule a company can fire you for any reason whatsoever, or FOR NO REASON.
Age discrimination doesn't really come into play, the laws read mostly about discrimination against OLDER FOLKS!!
So what sould you do??
Depeends,
- Start looking
- GO on some interviews
- Take a good close look at UNEMPLOYMENT (think of it as a long term "paid" vacation).
- Keep a low profile
- Do the work that you're given in a workmanlike, professional manner.
The most important thing is not to get too "uptight".
The loyalty of most companies to their employees disappeared in the 1980's. Don't let the bastards even talk about loyalty. You should be as loyal to your company as they are to you (like in ZERO LOYALTY).
If you decide that the "paid" vacation of unemployment is a good deal for you, hey they'll find a reason to fire you - just do some of the things these other commenters have suggested.
(Seasonal work is GREAT for my friends who drive oil delivery trucks - THEY COLLECT UNEMPLOYMENT each and every summer and go FISHING!!!!)
I'm 26 at the moment, so I'm not quite that young anymore, but here is the catch. I still make 100k a year for data networking. I make more than my boss, his boss, and his boss. When word of that got out, there were PLENTY of pissed people.. (Above and below!)... Sr Directors don't like it when peons make more than the do. As if that wasn't enough, when they realised my age the threw a fit. So, now I'm constantly under the gun to get things done, or I'm out. What a pain!
The real kicker for me was, that I was going out with a manager from a different department/centre and she totaly dumped me because of the money and age thing. Unbeliveable!
The important thing is NEVER buy a fancy car, and bring it to work (BMW convertables among Toyota's rase heads...) and NEVER celebrate a birthday!
Harassment isn't only for sexual harassment. With our Political Correctness movements, they have added other non sexual types of harassment. File a harassment charge with HR, they cant fire you or switch your job due to retaliation laws against harassment charges.
If your going to be fired or moved to a dead-end job, with our job market defend your rights. A good employee shouldnt be degraded due to age.
Here is a good quick short overview of non-sexual harassment.
Get EVERYTHING documented. You do a good thing? Get it documented. You complete a task? DO NOT tell anybody face to face. Send an email. Keep the email, and the 'attaboy' reply archived. Print them out, even. That way, you've got stuff to take to HR if suddenly get a termination notice; they take note of those 'out of the blue' problems. If you're feeling lucky, put together a touchy-feely email to your boss, CC'd to the age-hater in question, and the head of HR, saying how much you enjoy your work environment, because nobody discriminates against your age; gosh, at some places, it's not how well you do the job, it's if you went to the right school, or play golf with the right people, or are 30+, and isn't it great that doesn't happen here?
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
You better hope your IT director doesn't read slashdot, rjohnson. Maybe you should have made a up a more obscure name. Or maybe rjohnson isn't really your name.
Secondly, find a new place to work and quit. If our supervisors don't appreciate your work, then take it elsewhere. After a week or so of your absense I'm sure they will realize just how much work you did.
But, you really should consider getting a degree. It's going to be very hard for you to continue to get promotions, or compete for jobs with degree holders without one. Granted the university classes are boring and won't teach you much, but just think of them as a vacation!
Since I work in a position that has a say in who gets hired at our company I don't feel bad about saying who we would / have hired. I would not hire someone under the age of 20, 19 is pressing it. Personally, If I can't go out to a bar and get a drink with someone to get to know them better I'll probably consider them too young. Time goes quick though, so you won't have this problem for long. That being said, I have recommended hiring people who don't have degree's, but in any situation where its someone who has a degree vs. someone who doesn't, guess what....
Jim
First off I apologize for my grammer. Secondly I have 5 years real world experince and I am not talking about running some pethetic highschool network.
.5 years and have worked at my currecnt job for 1 year. That is 5 years of real world experience.
I was home schooled and graduated at 15. I got my first real full time Job at Best Buy Inc as A PC Tech, I worked there for 2 years. Then I worked at a Game Development company for 1.5 years. I then worked at another Software Developemnt company for
Third, I have my 6 month review that says other wise. I got almost all good remarks, true I got the usuall, late a few times, everyone gets that, but there is always room to improve IMHO, and I am not claiming to be anything I am not.
I dont have a college degree but have started back to school to pursue my CS degree. I do have my MCSE, RHCE and am currently pursing some Cisco certification, but like others have said nothing is as good as a college degree except a college degree and I 100% agree with that.
Lastly and I stress this fact would all the trolls and flamers that have no sound advice, just not say anything at all ? That would be nice.
Oh, and one last thing, I am not one to sue for millions of dollars I am simply talking if they fire me because of my age I would simply want enough severance to take care of my family.
Anyway thanks to everyone for some good advice.
Assuming you live in the US, your employer can legally fire you for being too young. The Age Discrimination in Employment Act only protects people aged 40 and over. Check your state law because if you have any legal protection at all it would be there. (Very doubtfull... I'm not aware of any states that have this)
Don't be so alarmed and try to be patient...:) I'm reminded of an old Mark Twain quote which I hope I have attributed correctly (paraphrased): "When I was 16 I was amazed at my father's ignorance. When I turned 21 I was amazed by how much he'd learned." Generally speaking, there's a giant, yawning gulf between textbook theory and practical experience. Just out of college, many young people simply know a great deal about the former and nothing about the latter. Older people, however, have lived through the transition long enough to discern the difference. As a young person many things may seem to you entirely logical and brimming with merit, making you scratch your head in genuine bafflement as to why what seems so transparent to you is completely hidden from these other, older people. In fact, these older people have simply lived long enough to have had the same ideas you do, tried them, and for one reason or another watched them fail. That's where the "experience" factor comes into play. Rather than enter into long-winded debates with you as to why things which seem so "logical" simply don't work too well in practicality, these people may simply think you've some growing to do and some experience to accrue, so they'll put you somewhere they feel you can begin to develop so as to understand the answers to your questions before you ask them. :)
Naturally, this makes you feel "discriminated" against--when in reality they are placing you there to help you obtain some pieces of the puzzle they feel you may not presently appreciate.
However, there's a chance your employers could be real jerks, too...:) In that case, I'd start hunting for another job. But if you feel these are otherwise "great" people who are making strange decisions (decisions you can't understand with regard to your placement), then I'd hang in there as it may pay BIG dividends down the road. Good luck!
It started with my finishing my psych degree. My classmates were getting jobs at a local, church-sponsored recovery 'ranch' which helps adolecents. Their help wanted ads would always say 'males prefered'. Being male, psych major, seeing all of my friends get hired, and having years of experience working with youth, I thought for sure I would at least get an interview. Instead, silence. No returned calls. I would follow up and make sure that my application was recieved and being reviewed. No response. No rejection letter or call - nothing. It was clear my services were not desired. Instead of pursuing it further, I stuck with my part-time systems administration.
In the computer world, there seems to be a deep hate of people who are a) scientoligists (I understan this one) b) jehova whitnesses c) mormons, and d) any sort of christians. Other religions are tolerated. The prime religons of the computer world seem to be secular humanism, gnosticism, atheism, narsicism and roll-your-own religion. It's ironic how much judmentalism and intollerance I have recieved from groups that seems to preach tollerance and to-each-his-own. Anyone who's been on irc, usenet, or slashdot threads that go mearly go near religion can see how radical and overwhelming the anti-religous voices can be.
When applying for tech jobs, rarely is youth ministry experience good. Somewhat understandable; I have have to work my way up. But when applying for entry-level positions, who would be better? Someone who is mature, already knows perl, and somehow can handle hundreds of jr. highers - or, someone who's experience is working at a gas stations and their computer experience is playing video games? It's a true story, and I'll grant there may have been other differeneces that made the other canidate better. However, after encountering this many times, one starts to get a sense that something is going on. A couple former empolyers confessed that they did have reservations in hiring me because they thought I would be too judgemental and cause problems and hurt the team. A prejudice which has never been true. In addition, I don't 'preach' or 'judge' at work; I barely even share my views when it comes to religion or topics that may be religious. The most noteable thing about my speech that may make me religious is that I try not to swear and I try and avoid certian topics when possible.
Now, I have enough work experience that my youth ministry positions are in the past and I have learned to be guarded in to the workplace. YMMV, but if my experience in california (even behind the orange curtian) is any indication - be on guard against religious descrimination.
Democrats and Republicans only disagree about how to enslave you
I suspect that people who use such poor grammar are treated poorly because they come across as morons. Maybe it's not age. Maybe it's that this person's grammar is so shitty. The way one presents one's self has a lot to do with how they're treated in the workplace. A moron with good grammar will go a lot farther than a genius with shitty grammar, IMHO.
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
No, it's not. While it is certainly valuable experience -- I'm a professional software developer now, and you can bet I listed my early part-time programming work on my CV at first -- comparing that to full experience of the same length of time is misleading at best. A part-time job such as you describe does not provide the same level of immersion into the position as a full-time job would. It simply isn't as "full on".
Quite rightly, almost no-one in the industry is going to give you the same amount of credit in your position as a guy who's been running a network full-time for 8 years. Furthermore, if you go around making exaggerated claims like that, they'll mark you down for the implicit dishonesty, and possibly use it as grounds for dismissal at a later date.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Four things...
1) Be thankful you have a job that gets you a paycheck right now. There are so many unemployed IT people right now and you should be making love to that paycheck you get on a regular basis.
2) Go get yourself a degree. Having a college education speaks volumes in a bad economy. If you go out looking for a new job, odds are you will lose out to someone that just got or has a degree. Even if you go part time, it shows you are trying to improve yourself.
3) Your biggest friend right now is your manager. If he's telling you these things, he's either doing it as a tactic to get you to move on or he really likes you and is trying to help. If it comes down to court, make sure you have him as a witness.
4) Your IT Director is a prick. Anyone who would be trying to toss someone onto the street today has no conscience. I will say that most of the IT Directors I have met in my life are nothing more than total gutless pricks. You may find the jewel in the sand one day, but not today it seems. They don't know anything, but think they know everything. Being an IT Director is just a place to be to get you out of the way so the grunts and managers can get real work done.
My advice to you is to get out while the going is good, but remember...YOU ARE ONLY 20 YEARS OLD. You DO NOT have 5 years of industry experice. I'm 31 and I have 12 years under my belt, becuase I worked while I was in college.
Get yourself a new job that has Tuition reembursment as a benny and go get your Bachelors degree. There are too many little snots out there, like yourself, without degrees. You think you know it all, but in fact, you know nothing. Your generation will one day be IT Directors. I just hope they know something when they get there, becuase you'll be having my generation of VPs hiring/promoting you.
In summary:
- Thank your lucky stars you have a paycheck
- Get a new job with Tuition as a perk and get a degree
- Trust your manager, for information only
- Most IT Directors are pricks
- You only have about 1-2 years of experience, not 5
- Don't carry this through your career...learn from it
- Lastly..."He who has the paper, WINS!!!" Right now, your Director has the paper and you don't.
Go get it.
"...the shortest distance between two points may be straight line, but it is by no means the most interesting."
You are in a loose-loose situation. I have been in the same situation myself. I was 10 years younger than all of my co-workers and getting paid about 40% less. My job performance was satisfactory until I demanded more salary. Suddenly, I got few asignments and I wasn't "producing".
I cut my losses and "negotiated" a severence plan. I contracted for two years in different parts of the country and moved into a permanent position when the economy started falling apart in the summer of last year. All my other managers loved my work and we keep in touch on a regular basis. I now make more than my coworkers in my first job and am in a better working environment
My point is that you should evaluate your current situation and ask yourself:
Also, I what about higher education? This will matter as you get older. The economy is slow now and this is the best time to get a degree without loosing career opportunities. Do what is best for yourself.
Work is work. Your life is more important. Don't sell yourself short just to win a political battle at your current employer. They could throw you out tommorow and life will go on. Don't fight a battle that is not to your personal advancement.
Saddly, I think you are in an ugly situation that won't get better unless the director leaves. I only see two options to save your current job. Kiss MAJOR ass or become a potted plant. In a war, the army with the biggest gun wins and you are almost completly unarmed. The only victory you can hope for is a punic one.
-A fellow wage slave who is too lazy to loginI had discrimination take an interesting turn... I was treated like a god until I turned 21, and then they all started going, "oh you're an idiot" basically because I didn't have a degree. Once the child prodigy is no longer a child, I was no longer an asset to them. Now, at 22, I can do nearly anything with a computer, but I make less money then ever and I am being forced to return to school until I have a master's, just to prove that I am as capable as I am. A very sad state of affairs...
stuff |
2. Consult an attorney now. Don't wait until the shoe drops and then scramble around trying to get out from under it. Know exactly what you need to be able to do to take your case to court. Know exactly how to conduct yourself on the job in the interim. Know exactly how to conduct yourself in the event you do get fired.
Being properly prepared will not only help you win a legal case but it will improve your own attitude at work because you will have taken positive steps to protect yourself.
mp
"The secret to strong security: less reliance on secrets." -- Whitfield Diffie
This one is funny. You're advocating a walk-in confrontation with the poster's manager's boss? The last major corporation I worked at that would be the CIO, or VP of Info. Might as well bring any company property you have in your possession with you, you'll be turning it all in shortly enough.
To start, I'd suggest a major attitude readjustment in regards to your coworkers. These folks have been there for years and they know how things are done. You just got there and already you want to fix everything you see them doing wrong. That isn't why they hired you. You're there to make sure all the crappy systems they have in the back office keep chugging, not to re-architect the business that was running fine before you got there.
BTW your age raises legitimate concerns from an HR standpoint. Most of these concerns would relate to lack of emotional maturity, poor ability to work on a team, etc.
IMHO your best course of action is to take the wise advice of several other posters and recognize that you're there to keep your boss's fat out of the fire. The actual business requirements of your job, including following the dress code, are a very close second.
It is a good time to currently be employed, you don't want to join the unemployed masses especially with a new family! On that note I'd suggest keeping that resume up to date and the more interviews you can get, the more likely you can get out of that place. It's always better to be currently employed when looking for a new job. Good Luck!!!
Generally, management (whether a supervisor, mananger, director, VP, etc.) doesn't sit around throwing darts at a phone list deciding who to pick on next. Usually you "earn" the right to extra attention--both positive and negative.
Lots of times, you may not even know what has attracted their attention, but rest assured, something has.
One other note: Don't be so sure about your manager. It's a fact of the business world that just because somebody tells you that they're loyal and watching out for you, doesn't mean that they're not really the one putting the bad reports about you into the director's ear.
This happens alot, I'm 22 now, 4.5 years experience...still working on my degree though. Seems like a combo of age and lack of degree that's becoming a big hurdle in my career. My problem is that I'm stuck in a position (sys admin...not horrible or boring) with no hopes of advancement or substantial raise. Other firms in this city (portland) won't even give me the time of day considering my age and educational status while someone with less schooling (i.e. an AS) that are a few years older with less experience have gotten the positions that I've been rejected for. How many of us have been through the whole .com stock options rags to riches and then back to rags again before being able to legally drink?
You know, I agree with a lot of the sentiment of your post, but
Its like this, spudboy.."industry experience" means sleeping on the floor of your office overnight because you need to babysit half a dozen mission-critical AIX, Solaris and IRIX boxes following a complete power-failure and network outage, because if you dont, the entire department's workload might grind to a halt, and the company will lose $30,000 per minute until its fixed.
When I was 20 (all of 4 years ago) and managing a network for 200 users, 50 client machines - I spent many a long night recovering from various failures due to a very small budget and the fact that everything (except the Cisco switches - they were sweet, and never caused any problems apart from a lightning strike killing one (doh!)) Having now done the same thing in more 'industry' setting (that was a college network), I can say that it's very similar.
On the other hand, the person who replaced me in that college position sounded similar (in his brag-sheet) to mr '5 years experience' above.. The line that really got me was 'a few certifications'. Mr PFY-type had done the coursework for a CCNA (not actually done the tests or been certified) - and wrote a long document talking about how my very reliable Perl based user tracking and billing system was not 'industry standard', and should be replaced by a pile of expensive Cisco stuff because that was 'Industry Standard[tm]'. He also had a MSCE and wanted to install Exchange, etc (we didn't even provide email services, because the Uni provided all that and less work for us meant less cost - plus mail services have a heavy support load). Oh, did I mention he included _every_ certification, including that CCNA he didn't have, in his 'title' at the top of the document. It read like a 'these are my ideas, which are mine. Me - this one with all the letters. ME!'.
I think the biggest problem I see with youngsters (including myself at the ripe old age of 24) is that we tend to want to try everything - and change all the time just for the sake of playing with new things.
At least (I hope), I don't do to much 'THIS IS ME WITH ALL THESE LETTERS AND YEARZ OF EXP!RIeNC3 d00d!@!!!!!!1111!!!'.
I have not read the discussion yet, so i'm sure this is a redundant reply, but you have legal remedys (if you are willing to go that route). You can destroy your documentation and leave. OR (what I would do is) talk to HIS boss - that is probably the least risky thing you could do. Regardless, warm up our resume.
"C" is for cookie, that's good enough for me.
I'm an IT director and I welcome talent in any form. If discrimination truly exists as you say it does in your current environment, then you're better off leaving such a place which probably has a limited future, if not in outright failure in the long run, then in mediocrity.
Any organization run by immaturity, unprofessionalism or emotion will ultimately fail. If your talents are as strong as you think, then you have a bright future with or without the support of your current organization. If you are just rationalizing your own shortcomings, that will be borne out also.
That's not big, and it's not clever. For all the millions of employees worldwide, this is a small industry. You might want a reference from your current boss in future, or you might later wind up working again for someone at your present company, either back there or elsewhere. If you demonstrate that you're a grade A scumball by leaving without notice or badmouthing the boss/company as you go, it may well come back to haunt you sooner or later.
Never underestimate the power of networking. Leaving a good impression can give you contacts in the industry who can valuable open doors for you later on. On the other hand, a reputation as someone awkward or unhelpful will spread far faster and further than you'd like.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I got my first professional job at 16. I was offered the position at 14 but didn't accept it for two years. I did data analysis, 3d rendering, and helped a bit with some programming. I also did some general IT work.
I'm 29 now and it's still on my resume. I also have a letter of reference from my employer to prove it.
Nothing is more frustrating to the young person who takes his or her parents' advice and goes and gets a real job to get real experience than to have people tell them they must be a liar.
I advise you to remember that these sorts of things do happen occasionally, and a much better attitude than "I don't believe you, prove it!" would be "here is how you can document your experience".
For the young person in question, my advice is to talk to your direct supervisor(s), past and present if necessary, and get a letter of reference on company letterhead. These letters not only can be produced at any review or termination proceedings (give them a *copy*, not the original), but also can be of excellent use in future jobhunting: when an employer gets 20 resumes for a job, the one with several letters from past employers saying the person did a good job stands out, and such letters have gotten me several jobs in the past. (One employer looked at my letters and called to offer me the job.) If you actually do good work, usually the boss is more than happy to write you such a letter upon request.
Tom
I've been working in the tech industry since I was 15 - no, that doesn't mean that I've been sitting in my basement programming since I was 15, it means that the summer that I turned 15 is when I got my first real summer job, at a real web development and hosting shop.
I've found, moreso in this industry (could just be the places I've worked), people have been very tolerant of my age. In that first job when I was 15, it was not uncommon for me to go out for lunch or have meeting with people from other departments, including the 40somethings from sales&marketing - and besides a couple of good natured jokes, they always treated me with respect and as a peer.
Granted, I did spent the most time there with the second youngest employee there, who was 22 at the time (we're still friends), but as I mentioned, going for lunch or having coffee with 40 year olds wasn't uncommon.
The next job I got was actually a direct result of my age - a teacher at my high school left teaching to work full time at his hosting company that he started out of his basement that had grown hugely. He's hired me for the last two summers, and even though I was only 17 the last time I worked for him, he also never let my age play a factor - I met with clients, I called our ISPs to arrange new IP blocks, and when something went wrong, more often then not he'd let me take a crack at it before bringing in the big guns.
I also volunteer for the Residential Broadband Users' Association. We currently often meet with Rogers cable management - and though I'm only 18 now, again, in the boardroom they always treat me with respect and it's never been an issue there.
This is only a very brief recap of some of the things I've done in the last couple of years, I've got a heck of a lot under my belt that I haven't mentioned - all thanks to the support of this industry, and the fact that starting at a very young age has never hampered any of my experiences. So while ageism may be a problem for some, in my person experience, I've never experienced any, and have always felt "part of the team" even when working with people 3 times my age.
My suggestion to you would be to do what I did that first summer when I was 15. When I first started, the first couple of days, I was very scared - mostly because I was the youngest person on the staff. Be outgoing - introduce yourself to the older employees, ask if you can join them on lunch or coffee breaks, have discussions with them. If they can get to know you, they'll realize your maturity level and more likely than not will stop bothering you.
----
Bryan Samis
http://www.thesamis.net
I have been professionally programming full-time at actual jobs since I was 16 (that makes 6 years) with 11 companies, one of the first being Sun Microsystems. Since my dad was a professor of computer science, I have had access to computers and have been using them since age 4. This is irrelevant to a boss; just tell them what you've really done, then take the IT department to school when you get your foot in the door, and never look back. If there are enough of you all out there, and you're all that good, come and work for me! :)
stuff |
AOF is a great book, but it does not always apply to everything. Allow me to repeat that: AOF does not always apply to everything.
Everybody's talking about it. Especially here on Slashdot, and if I'm not mistaken, especially you. But the office is not a warzone. You should not pretend to be strong when your weak and the other way round. You should not view your co-workers as enemies. The view of the office as a battleground, if anything, is contributing to the sort of atmosphere this very discussion is concerned with getting rid of.
Sheesh.
"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance" - Derek Bok
Management 101: no-one is unreplaceable.
Management 201: it is cheaper to fix a problem early.
A smart manager will see your little power-trip for exactly what it is. You will get marked down as a liability, and dispensed with as soon as possible.
If you have concerns, you may want to speak to your manager. If he's any good, you do want to speak to him, because it's in everyone's interests to resolve the issue quickly and effectively. But do it privately, politely and diplomatically, not in a macho, chest-banging show of public frustration.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Definitely get your resume together and start to look for a new job. But this isn't 1998 - they aren't as easy to come by now.
If you choose to stay, or in case you can't find anything else, start to talk to your coworkers. If your boss is that unreasonable with you, chances are he is also with some of your coworkers (perhaps the particulars are different with them, but an asshole is an asshole). If you find similar dissatisfaction among them, suggest that you all may need to band together for your mutual protection in the workplace. Float the idea of forming a Union.
Federal law prohibits firing someone because they are attempting to Unionize their workplace. That said, the penalties for an employer who violates this law are minimal. Most AFL-CIO affiliated Unions are not that vigorous, but still Union workers on average make 20% more money than non-Union workers in the same job class.
Try to find the most democratic Union you can to talk to, and talk to several. An undemocratic union is sometimes worse than none at all. They'll all say that they are democratic, but ask for and read their national and state constitutions to see where the real power lies. Pick the one that gives the most power to the rank and file. Or form an independent union (there's no law that says that you have to join one of the national federations).
It's not really the legal status of a Union, or their lawyers, or whatever that are the real power. It is in you and your coworkers ability to watch each others' backs and work together that is where the power lies. The next time someone is called into Mr. IT director's office for discipline, all of you go with him - together. Start a work slowdown, wear buttons or ribbons as an outward sign of your solidarity with each other.
This all can seem scary, but where ever you go you can have the same problems if yo don't have some protection in the workplace. Sometimes it's better to stay and join with your coworkers to solve your collective problems. It is the only way that you can gain some power over your work life so that you can do your job without worrying about arbitrary management bullshit.
Good luck
http://www.uniondemocracy.org/
http://www.labornotes.org/index.html
http://www.ilwu.org
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/29/
I had an employer tell me outright that they knew they were paying me less than half what I was worth and that they agreed that I was consequently not receiving a market competitive salary and that I did superb quality work and that they had absolutely no complaints about me, but that they had no intention of paying me a market-competitive salary because it galled the boss to hand a $70k salary to a 24-year-old, so I should shut up and take the $30k I was getting and be grateful they were offering me a $3k raise because that's all I deserved at my age.
I looked into age discrimination law, and discovered that in Massachusetts we're protected against being discriminated against for being too old, but not for being young.
So, I left the company. It was the worst thing I could do to them. They were going to have to pay a lot more to get a competent person, and I was better not to have the stress.
Yeah, discrimination exists. I taught myself Linux (with help from wonderful people on the net and books of course) at age 32. I wanted a career change from being a truck driver. You wanna talk about discrimination? Try jumping from blue collar work to white collar work at my age.
But I figured I could either whine about it and try to change the whole IT industry or I could try to change myself, my approach to resumes, interviews, dress...whatever and hope to find a cool place to work where they viewed my ambition to change careers as a positive thing and not a weird thing.
I found one after sending out 600+ resumes.
This guy is young, experienced and has a whole wide world of careers and/or schooling ahead of him. Either his employers are ingrates and should be ditched as quickly as possible or he has some other flaws that ARE the real reason people want him out.
Either way the solution is up to him alone and not 'society'.
I caught this too. I imagine two possibilities:
1. he is full of it
2. He worked for four years for a family business and was "recomended" to his current employer.
Number two does count. However, I don't think this will help much in the long run.
But if anything happens, you should talk to a lawyer. Messing with your job because you're 20 is illegal, plain and simple. If they try anything, have a lawyer write a letter to them and their bosses. Just that will probably solve things.
My Karma was at 49, then they switched to words. All that work for nothing!
The way one presents one's self has a lot to do with how they're treated in the workplace.
Do you mean bad grammar like using "one" and a singular "they" in the same sentence? If you're going to use the incorrect singular "they" at least keep it consistant.
While it may suck presently, you WILL get older and then it'll be over. People of differing colors or religious beliefs either cannot, don't need to, or will not change so your perceived discrimination isn't even in the same class as the others.
Oh yeah, and you're not quite 20- how have you been in the IT business 5 years? Yeah, right.
I've lost a job or two because I am pagan. I have also been descriminated against in other places for the same reason. It is sad that people in today's society still need to make themselves feel better by opressing those who are different.
ttyl
Farrell
CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
it is relatively difficult for you to make a convincing court case (note IANAL). The fundamental assumption of "Innocent until proven guilty" can be hard to surmount and rightly so.
Also, understand that technical ability is not always the highest consideration (I figured that out quite recently). Companies take into consideration: Cost of Employee, Seniority, Number of Dependents, Rehirability, and Social Integration with other employees, etc.
Example: I was hired a short while ago, I proved my technical proficiency above and beyond those required for the position I was in. My immediate manager loved my work (ie: I made his job a lot easier as well as made him look good). I was obviously more technically proficient than the other employees with the same position. I wasn't smug. I treated my senior co-workers with great respect, didn't expect special treatment, etc. They laid me off. Why did they lay me off?
1. I was the person with the shortest amount of time with the company. (ie: Seniority)
2. I had no dependents.
3. I had the greatest probability of future employment (noone else had much education beyond high school). (ie: Rehirability)
4. I had the least amount of ties and time to socialize with other employees. (ie: Seniority)
5. I was ambitious and my proven skills would eventually cost them more than they were willing to pay. (ie: Cost)
6. They had a contract with a previous employee that said they would re-hire them. (ie: Seniority)
Managers are not unaware of social affects of their decisions. While cost was the reason they had to fire someone, technical ability wasn't really considered in who was laid off (except as far as rehirability).
Age discrimination is rampant in IT, but one usually hears of stories at the other end of the spectrum; i.e., age discrimination directed towards those > 35 years of age. I always take cases of age discrimination directed toward those who are in their infancy with respect to their IT careers with a grain of salt. Given your stated age, what type of formal education have you had (college, associate, even technical)? I find it hard to believe (unless you are one of the members of the population who graduated college at 18) that you have had an adequate amount of formal education. I, like many "geeks", started programming when I was in my pre-pubescence, and had odd jobs before the end of my teenage years. However, my career didn't "start" until I had the emotional maturity to deal with a multiplicity of people. That is the definition of adulthood. It is a testament to the West's hubris that intelligence and knowledge somehow take precedence over this facile principle. Perhaps that would explain the West's rampage all over the world?
With regard to this principle of emotional maturity, it should be understood that corporations and the like are private tyrannies. You don't have to be a Chomskyian to figure that out. I discovered this truism at the age of 9, and it wasn't hard to do so, given that most Western institutions are private tyrannies, and I, thank God, am not a Westerner (that's why it was so easy to figure out!) Now, if one accepts this premise, it also follows that private tyrannies seek to promote their own interests, often to the detriment of others (who in this case become an externality). That is where teenagers and young adults fit in. You see, how is it to the elite's advantage in a company to promote these types of employees, or perhaps even recognize and reward their achievements along with the other "experienced" employees? The fact of the matter is that it's not advantageous to them, since employees are simply dispensible commodities, more akin to durable goods than to flesh and blood. And, by the way, these doctrines were set up by the West during the rise of the Industrial Revolution to supplant monarchic aristocracy with corporate aristocracy.
So, my advice to you is to hop from job to job, because that is the only option available in a system like this.
You're probably the only person in the world who did not understand that the parent was a sarcastic post. Oh, sorry, I forgot about the guy who modded you "Insightful". How he's got mod points to spare at all is beyond me.
"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance" - Derek Bok
I've been coding since about the age of 4. Yes, 4. And no, i'm not kidding.
You are so full of shit.
Really. Read what I wrote out loud. Then read the following out loud:
1. I put you are shoes in the closet.
(misuse of you're, where your should be used)
2. The men beat they are wives.
(misuse of they're, where their should be used)
Really, when someone uses such shitty, basic grammer, they're (not their) pretty much announcing to the world, "Hi, I'm a moron." And, in real life you don't have the luxury of hiding behind the veil of Anonymous Coward!
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
Do you really know what your director is saying to your boss? This is the kind of thing I heard from managers when they wanted to you to think the only *they* were on your side. It's manipulative. Your boss knows you, and your worth and should be your representitive to the rest of the world. If he's not, no amount of challenging will change that. Tread quietly, and look for a new job. There are managers out there that will actively promote you if you are truly a good resource.
I know what you're feeling, being young and in network / systems administration. It's what I did until I was laid off back in March. I haven't been able to find a job since then and I have been told that my qualifications are great and I know what I'm doing, it's just that I don't have the years of experience. I have 3 1/2 honest to good years of experience under my belt, I have down on paper that I have more since I also count the time I helped with some servers at college (yeah, quake and quake 2!), which I find relavant since it was making sure users could connect and use the resources (what a sys admin does). Why I don't buy your story is that you are only 19. Is this your first job? If so, enjoy it and get ready to work in the help desk hell for a few years now that the business is slow. Be lucky that you got a taste of what you want to do. I'd like some more info on your background, like college, certifications, experience, work history, etc. so I could get a better picture of all this.
Scroll back to the Slashdot story a few days ago that covered a similar topic. The bottom line here is you don't have a college degree. You may be good at what you do, but you aren't well rounded and don't have the important life skills someone who graduated from college would have. You know what my advice is!
must have been tired
"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance" - Derek Bok
Start actively, though discreetly, looking for another position. As one of the other posters stated, if you you keep your job by legal means, the guy will hate you, if you get laid off or fired you have a problem trying to explain. If you can get another offer, that will ease your mind, and give you some clout with the big boss. Tell him you like working there, but the situation has become unbearable, knowing that for whatever reason, this one guy seems to be out to stop you at every turn. Suggest a meeting with the three of you to try to work through the issues. If the guy who seems to have it in for you refuses, then you've won and he loses credibility. You've taken the high road, and he has refused to co-operate. If your boss has any sense at all, it will be the other guy that gets the boot, not you. Keep in mind that this is business and you have to get along. If the other guy won't play nice, then he's the one who should be sent home. In any case have a way ready to bail, if it doesn't work out. By offering to work things out you've shown your maturity, and willingness to work together. That is an asset to any company. If it doesn't work out and you leave, you have gained the respect of your boss, who will most likely write a glowing letter of recommendation. (he would rather do that than admit his faults, for not getting rid of the troublemaker).
Posted Anonymously to Protect the Innocent...
When I was still relatively young (25), I was hired as the IT Director for a startup. Our SA was a great kid, 19 years old, but smart as a whip and always did a great job.
Unbeknownst to me, when I was hired there was already some ill will towards this kid in upper management. He was young, he was smart, and he had a problem getting to work before 2pm.
This was what they focused on in order to get rid of him... I argued that 95% of the work he did could be done anytime of day, and 5% had to be done after the users were gone in the middle of the night anyway. I pointed out that he did great work, and that although he might have come in at 2pm, he'd be at the office until 2am...
Well, I was told "Okay, he's your 'problem' now". So we set up some "core hours" which were a little more corporate friendly, but still okay for non-early morning people. (I myself not being fond of the morning, am sympathetic.) This worked fine, departmentally. The SA did his job, I was completely satisfied, and everything was great.
Then one day, the CEO came to me and said "Fire him". I protested, stated how he was doing a great job, how we'd *never* replace him for what we were paying him (he was getting ripped off because he was only 19, with no college degree...) and so on. The CEO said "Fire him. He has still been coming in late." I explained our arrangement, and that he was my employee. The end result? The SA was let go later that day.
The moral of the story is, it doesn't matter how much your boss likes you. He has a boss too, and that boss out ranks him. He can stick up for you at every opportunity, and in the end, you can still get screwed. If I were you, I would clean up the resume, and look for a new position. Or else look into student loans and go to college. I know, I know, we could debate *endlessly* about the value of college, but being in upper management myself, I can tell you two things: 1) when you get out of school, you'll be older. That matters. 2) Most of your managers will have degrees (undergrad at least, many will have MBAs) and they might not voice it, but they *do* look down on people who don't. Right now, they will use your age to pick on you... when you get older, they'll use your lack of education.
It's sad, but it's true...
A couple years ago I was in one of those big warehouses that sell used office furniture. They had a fairly nice network covering the whole building, with a good POS and inventory setup. When I complimented the owner on it, he got all proud and parenty and introduced me to his son, the sysadmin. who was maybe 15, probably a little younger. He'd not only chosen the hardware and software, he'd pulled all the cable himself. ("Easy in an old building. Walls and floors aren't hard to get through.") Can't imagine a competent IS manager who wouldn't want to hire somebody like that.
We all know stories like this. Teenagers are just the right age to pick up these kinds of abstrat technical concepts, and they enjoy the work. Of course, in the process they show up old farts like me. Hence the resentment.
You figger out why....
"I left home at 21, convinced that my father was the stupidest person in the world. When I returned 5 years later, I was amazed at how much he'd learned."
-Mark Twain
I think this is exactly what's happening with the submittor. As others have pointed out, his "experience" claims are surely an indication that he probably doesn't really know as much as he thinks he does.
Has anyone noticed that in this economy, employers are looking more at years experience than certifications. I know already that I've been passed up for a position because I didn't have 5 years experience but I held certifications that would be useful for that position. I pose a question to anyone reading this with Certifications. In this down economy, do they even help? I have a CCNA, CCDA and a lot of other letters. The moment I was laid off from my last job I stopped paying the 100 bucks for each test and just let em lie. Is anyone still going for them and if so are they helping any more.
I've read alot of comments, people saying he's too young to have professional experience of 5 years. When I was a freshman in highschool, I was offered the chance to work part time as an assistant to a systems administrator at the local FAA. I took it. From that point on, I did part time sys-admin work all over the place. I was 14 at the time. Because of my age, I did need to file some paperwork at some government office in order to get around all those child labor laws, but still.
Anyhow, on to the problem. Probably 4 years ago I worked a job where I was heavily descriminated against because of my age. I was able to keep them at bay by doing as someone else suggested from the Art of War, act weak when you are strong, act strong when you are weak. It's a nice quote but it only works so far.
The problem was my age still kept poping up. I was passed up for promotions despite being the most qualified for a given position and my clean working record. The whole weak-strong thing only prevented me from being harassed about my age, or forced to work overtime simply beacuse they could.
Really, you can do lots of things but removing all the grey areas you have three; Stay. Protest. Quit.
You could just tough it out. Suffer with your boss, try to win his favor, etc. It's been my experience that this never works.
You could file a complaint with the Dept. of Justice, or (if you're lucky) a union, or the Human Resources department if they have a grevience process. Still, this only rocks the boat. You'll find that the worst kind of descrimination is the one that you don't see happening. It seems like your boss has been fairly public about his dislike of you based on your age. If you file a complain it's likly this sort of descrimination will simply go underground. Most cases of harassment I've seen rocking the boat only makes matter worse, often times moving up the descrimination to the executive level. Corporates don't like people willing to rock the boat.
Finally, and this one I strongly suggest; Quit. Leave. Don't look back. Don't sue, don't whine, don't talk about it unless asked. Find and new job and never worry about this shit again.
Just my two cents. Oh, and good luck.
Do you include those four years as professional, years? I have had internship and part-time work.
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
I was discriminated against at my old job too. I worked 60 hour weeks on average and i accomplished all my tasks and then some. After doing a 3 man job by myself for a couple of months (the other 2 guys had quit), they hired a new guy who had less experience than i had, a couple certifications more than me (i couldn't get time off because they "needed me at work", and my job left little time for any kind of studying, or even being able to make into the certification center during open hours) and they payed him double what i was making after working there for over a year, and gave him a week off soon after he started (as i said, i couldn't get time off, the only time off i EVER got was days i called in sick). All this because i was the youngest guy there.
I agree with what your saying to a certain extent, But from what i have seen so far, having a degree doesn't mean your better then someone without. Only from the basis that what you learn in college and university are very out dated by the time you break out into the real world.
My attitude before was to get along in life with the knowlege i picked up from hands on experiance......This appears to work as a lot of uni grads didn't appear to know the first thing about basics like dos and wouldn't touch Unix/linux with a barge pole. Now 3 years later I concluded that this piece of paper is still important no matter how tech savvy you were so am starting my BSc in computer science part time while i work...... Now i get the experiance from work and the degree i need...but miss out on the getting drunk every night at uni parties.
only thing now is what companies think about part time degree's verses normal ones.....
.
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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire
Perhaps more to the point, if you employ a programmer good enough to be interchangeable, the last thing you'll be wanting to do is fire him...
However, the key thing is that programmers develop a level of experience and knowledge that is specific to the projects on which they've worked. As a result, they become much more valuable with time, and in some cases, the cost of moving or firing them becomes very, very prohibitive.
Unfortunately, that's not much help to a sysadmin. You just don't have the same level of variety in sysadmin work, and there's much less company- or project-specific knowledge to have. Everyone is expendable, but it's harder for a sysadmin to make it expensive to expend them.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
"You are so full of shit."
Am I?
The elementary school I went to was one of the first in Illinois to have computers put in..even more rare, computers that were actually available for the students to use. Prairie Elementary, District 203, Naperville. Look it up. Probably in autumn 1979 or so.
While I wasn't exactly writing 2048-bit crypto engines, I was writing simple text games by second grade and doing crude GR-mode graphics programming by about the third grade. I only lived two houses away from the school, so often times I'd stay after school to play with the computers, play Lemonade, Moppettown Parade and Swords & Sorcery until the custodians threw me out around 5 PM. In particular, I remember modding Lemonade so that the weather was always thunderstorms, because I thought the lightning bolt animation was awesome. Was writing war games by 5th grade. Got in trouble in 6th grade because I carried around a blue folder with the words "GENOCIDE" on it..Some of my teachers had voiced some concern (heh) about why I was working so much on it. I kept all my code hand-written on paper, and after school would sit down and type it all in. In particular, I remember how difficult it was to draw the paths of the missiles on a 40x40 GR mode screen. Had no idea what a parabola was, so I hard-coded the strike paths using about 13 pages of VLIN, HLIN and PLOT statements. Never finished it.
What else do you wanna know about how "so full of shit" I am?
Bowie J. Poag
It all boils down to politics in the workplace. If you don't have "friends" you can count on, you will not be appreciated for what you do. It is not a matter of talent or knowledge that will get you moving, but who can SEE it in you. You could be the next Einstein, but if no one wants to be around you while you are, no one will take notice. Politics in a workplace are terrible, but they are what allow you to KEEP your job. You may get through all the Interviews that are available, yet if you don't "play the game", you will always be looking for that next job.
You have to ask questions. You have to LISTEN TO THE Answers and see past what is being said to what is being MEANT. It shouldn't have to be this way, and everyone should have reviews based on what was accomplished....but the person has to see what you do in order to understand.
You keep going until you die..."Me".
In the US this would be illegal if you are in the age range 25-64, but age discrimination is ok outside of that group. I can't get software work at age 52, despite 30 years experience, so I sympathize with you completely.
I know exactly where you're coming from, since I have encountered similar responses. I have a few years on you, and I've only been in the industry solid for 3 years, but I've gotten remarks about my age that are entirely inappropriate.
There are a few things to keep in mind that have helped me. I got this advice from someone a few years ago, and it's valid in my esperience.
First, you're not God's gift to the technology industry...pretty much none of us are, no matter how good we are at what we do. Humility is hard to come by in young people that have computer talents. The biggest roadblock is that some cocky punks have already gone on before us and muddied the water a bit. Try to be low-key and humble about what you do. Also try to exude the attitude "I want to learn from you" to everyone you work with...yes, even people that make less money or seem less smart than you.
Secondly, like a few other people have mentioned, no matter how much experience you have, you have little in the way of corporate culture, politics, and the host of other issues that ALSO make up an employer/employee relationship. A lot of it might seem too "Dilbert" to pay attention, but this is the way it is, so learn to roll with the horse.
Third, keep in mind that people make decisions about you based on things they see outwardly. Dress as well as you can afford. It makes a big difference in the perception you convey to others.
Lastly, be objective about your abilities. If you're asked about your abilities, admit that your weakness is in experience, but you always give everything your best effort and learn rapidly.
Even after all of this, there are still jerks everywhere that are unwilling to accept young employees, but you will gain the respect of the ones that matter, and your career will benefit. The discrimination is frustrating, but it's there for a reason. Try to dispel people's initial reaction by proving to be an enjoyable person to work with.
You could have prevented this by lying about your age. It's illegal for an employer to ask your age, and you can certainly lie to coworkers about it.
I know someone who did precisely this and ended up in a fairly high position which he would have not otherwise been put if it hadn't been for his lying.
I'm 26, but you can be damn sure that I will lie about my age at my next job. I ran into the same issues at my previous job also, no promotion because I was too young, told to me by my boss (that bitch). Even though I was way more qualified than the person that they eventually hired. I quit, and he got fired shortly after for screwing things up.
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This isn't discrimination, it's monkey politics.
The boss has achieved alfa status and doesn't
want to loose face to a younger male he knows
is smarter than he is. You can tell who's alfa
in an organization by finding out who has their
back tapped most often; the runner up is the
one who women seek most to talk to. Observe
your office and then go to the zoo to watch the
monkeys; it's really funny to see how similar
the behaviours are.
In this thread and the recent one about a fast-track CS degree, we see confusion about the value of age and experience.
I'm pretty old for a slashdot reader, and have been coding as a main career activity since the 70s. I'm a solid coder, but I've known four great programmers. At least two of them achieved their greatness before they were twenty. Each of them is worth ten of me, and I'm not bad at all.
The fact that one can reach greatness as a coder before the age of 20 implies to me that coding ability is predominantly about a flavor of innate intelligence, and only secondarily about theoretical knowledge or experience. On the other hand, both of these precocious geniuses were CS undergrads at top-flight schools, so the firehose effect counts for something as well.
On the other hand, I've been a manager and a business owner. I know that raw talent isn't all there is to doing a job well. One person I supervised, not one of the greats but a solid talent, was under 20, and holding his first real job. Unrealistic expectations about the nature of private sector employment caused big problems. Inability to take hints and make compromises caused big problems. It wasn't that he was under 20, it was that he was unseasoned in dealing with groups and collaborations.
Your value added to your employer isn't only your core professional talent. Your ability to participate effectively in group efforts has a lot to do with it as well.
Of course, there isn't enough information about the original poster to know if non-core people skills are really the problem, rather than age per se. There are a couple of clues beyond age that incline me to suspect so, though.
Anyway, I've never known anyone at the age of 20 to have profound 10-times-better-than-47-year-old-me people skills though. That's a domain where experience counts for a lot.
For the original poster and other wunderkinds, I recommend tempering your pride with a dash of humility. Raw technical ability isn't everything.
----
mt
uh... second grade isn't 4 years old....
ARGHthis pisses me off. I am almost 20 also, and I have 5 years of professional experience. I've been a network admin since I was 15, professionally; in companies of about 150-200 people in size. I've experienced the same thing. I got fired from one of my jobs because I knew more than the 3 other admins that worked there who were all over the age of 25. I haven't really found a solution to this problem. Basically, be aleart; make sure you do your best at all times so no one can find fault in you. Then find another job. I've found that at some places I've worked for, they have respected me a lot more then others. Also, try your best to hide your age from people, really only HR needs to know your age, no one else. Good luck.
Perdida,
Nice try, but I don't buy it.
The odds of your 'friend' being fired from 3 different jobs at 'MAJOR international and national banks.' simply on the basis of race/age/sex are low enough to make one laugh. Odds are your friend is either a) a creation of your imagination, which you are attempting to use to further you political agenda or b) was actually doing something wrong at all three of the mentioned jobs.
'Capitalism says that merit is the only way to hire and promote.' Not really. The notions of capitalism simply state that if the state leaves the economic sector alone, it will sort out such issues (over the long-term) via the laws of supply and demand. If your friend (exists and) really is as good as you say he is, he'd be snapped up by somebody who was glad to hire him. Not everyone in the world is a racist. Government intervention into issues such as these is simply unconstitutional. Please save your breath and drop this tired political cause.
Cordially,
Andrew Murray
Of course this is also only one side of the story. 19 years old with 5 years of experience would mean you started working professionaly when you were 14. Second, did they come out directly and say "you are to youg. We are getting rid of you" or is this how YOU are interpereting it? Just reading your story I have a hard time believing everything you say.
No doubt. See, i'm sure he's a bright kid and all...but you don't run around comparing your "experience" to that of your bosses, who probably have been doing what you do for longer than you've even been alive. You'll come off as nothing short of a "snot-nosed kid".
If he's truly good at what he does, the wheat will rise above the chaff regardless of what happens in the long run. This isn't a case of "age discrimination" as much as it is "you've got a long way to go before you can compare your experience to mine, kid. Start down here, and work your way up with the rest."
Bowie J. Poag
I happen to be a young programmer. Before this I was a young tech. In the first case I was given a little, and allowed to grow to my full potential (many people were encouraging me to go full time from what was a summer position). I decided that I wanted to become a programmer, and so far I've been given progressively more interesting and important work with every assignment. At first I was worried what would happen, not because of descrimination, but because of my lack of corporate experience. Again, my coworkers have been very helpful, and I find myself able to reach my full potential.
No shit.
I dont know why you guys have such a hard time understanding the concept of my learning how to code in BASIC at age 4. Its not like they singled me out and taught me specifically -- It was part of the curriculum, the whole class learned what HOME and PRINT and RUN meant..Hell, I even remember the first day they wheeled it into the classroom.
Cheers,
Bowie J. Poag
i just had a conversation last night about this... some people think they can just rush through life and skip things like college and get a few certs and then then the world should be their's. sorry but it doesn't work that way, you're young and inexperienced in life. if you've held your job for over a year that means you got your job back when the job market was completely different and employers were desperate, and now things have shifted. they can be more picky now and find someone else. sure you may be qualified to do your job but guessing from your age you are probably still very arrogant and don't even realize it. get used to it. people will not take you serious till you get a college degree and/or grow up some. getting a cert doesn't prove anything - sure you can take 1 or 2 tests (probably multiple choices)... wow real big commitment there. they want someone that is more well rounded and can commit to 4 years towards a college degree.
I've been in computer repair since '79 and have tried to break into network admin since 95. Despite having highly related experience, many certifications, and an MIS degree I was "never in the right place at the right time." I just NOW got my foot in the door as a network admin for OSX servers. Don't complain too much, at least you got your foot in the door. Many others like myself are out there just wanting their chance to prove themselves. You're young, things will work out. If your company does downgrade you I suggest looking for other employment.
that are terrified of losing their jobs when *their* managers figure out that a motivated high-schooler can do their jobs (better and faster), for less pay, etc, etc. who are slamming this guy's experience. Why don't you guys just eat right, get plenty of exercise, and take some Geritol? Pretty scary to think that someone who's 20 years old can work as well as someone with 20 years 'experience'. Although, you'll find that most of the old-timers who whine and bitch about kids' experience, don't have 20 years experience; they have 1 years experience, 20 years in a row...
I'm one of those old people you are bitching about, but we go through the same crap too.
Corporate politics tends to control who gets what positions or transfers. People who know their technical chops are weak, play the political game to surivive. What sucks is it tends to work, because the people above making the decisions are even less technical, all they know is this guy is feeding them info, or its their friend. Reality is you can't survive on technical skills alone (unless your a guru level) you have to learn to play the political game too. Hard part is finding a balance so you don't end up becoming a technical zero and having to suck up to survive.
Bottom line, nothing in life is fair. I know in my career sometimes when in a sucky situation like yours, I ended up getting a better job or position afterwards. You just need to decide if its going to be at that company or another.
Last one comment on your (and others) were young and smarter comments. In the real world it's more than technical sharpness that matters. Knowing how the business world works, understanding why companies make the decisions they do from a marketing, business, HR and other perspectives is important. Take a look at the people moving up the food chain. Unless they are a technical god, they are people who know the business world as well as their area of expertice. They have also networked with others above them to let them know they are well rounded. You can't survive on technical chops alone.
When I worked for Atari Coin-Op back in the late 1980s, one of our senior software engineers who'd been with the company 5 years was just celebrating his 21st birthday.
I have absolutely no problem with a 19 year old with 5 years IT experience. However, if you're making statements like yours in a public forum, I question your experience.
Whoever gave you a 5/insightful for your post demonstrates that the moderation system for slashdot has serious problems, your score should have been -1/Troll.
Tech Public Policy stuff
0. everyone has skeletons in their closet- FIND them.
1. Every ORG I have ever been with has a problem with software licenseing. they need x # of copies on y # of computers, but don't have the licenses. Doucment EVERY time you are told to install software that you KNOW your company does not have a license for, record date, software, time, and WHO told you to do it.
2. Does not hurt if you also send messages to your boss stating things like "what do we do if we are audited?"- basicly anything that you can do to cover your rear and show you tried to address the problem.
3. They try to get rid of you, on your last week, have a meeting with your boss and his boss, and tell them you are calling the SPA, and sue for mental damage caused by your guilt feelings over having to perform illegal acts to keep your job.
Life is Long, But the years are short, NOT- while evil days come not
That is the gospel truth. The VAST majority of age discrimination in IT is older people being forced out to bring in younger people who command lesser salaries. Or forced out to outsource to coding sweatshops in India and Pakistan. Or whatever.
You think discrimination is bad now? Wait until you're 45 or so.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
young.
Age discrimination laws only protect older workers from being fired.
5 years of admin experience and you don't know the difference between the preposition "than", a word or phrase placed typically before a substantive and indicating the relation of that substantive to a verb, an adjective, or another substantive, and "then", used as an adverb, noun and rarely an adjective.
Someone you trust is one of us.
But, this is not age discrimination. Under the federal law (and most states too) it is illegal to discriminate on age over 40, but not for being under 40. To show that you were discriminated by race/sex/disability the treatement that your race/sex/disability received from the treatement of others.
Of course, when I asked for time to receive medical treatement, the management of Mattel / MSI / TLC started harassming me, following me around, keeping secret surveilance logs, monitoring my internet access from home.
Fight Spammers!
The problem I've seen in the industry with the younger crowd is that a lot (not all) of them assume that their decent computer skills also mean they have elevated maturity and judgement. A 12 year old can kick ass at chess and programming, but that doesn't automatically make them valuable to a team of working people.
I sat in a meeting with two other developers in our mid 30s, and one guy who was 22. We old farts worked the problem, the young guy went on an on about how the things we were working around should also be fixed and how the other applications we had to talk to were poorly designed. These were things we all knew, but we had the judgement, and to some extent the professional respect, not to harp on.
My gut feeling is that the fellow asking the question has alienated more than just the director. But it's hard to fault him, since he was probably raised by parents too concerned with his "self-esteem" too convey any sense of humility to him, which is essential to surviving in the workplace.
Leave the company.
You do not have any friends in HR....they are not in existence to help you...they work to protect the company. The loudest thing you can do is to get another job lined up, and explain in your exit interview that your manager refused to let you succeed with such a great company and it's a shame that one lousy manager can cause so much damage. Worked for me......they fired her and wanted to hire me back. Told em' to get stuffed.
Having done factory work too, I can see his point. I am just happy to be able to get paid while sitting in a chair so I don't care about long hours.
I was thinking that perhaps another aspect of 'age discrimination' towards the young might be that during the dot com boom, many people got out of college (or never bothered), got a high paying job, brought their pets to work, played with nerf toys, played Quake on the LAN and now kinda expect that again. One advantage to 'discriminating' against younger people is that a supervisor may want to stop this disruption or avoid it.
The same would hold true about people like me or your friend. They might want to avoid the 'old guys set in their ways'.
A skilled interviewer should be able to filter out negative qualities without resorting to age or previous work experience, but regretably that does not happen as often as it should.
But what about future prospects? Your employer may want people with experience and degrees in your position so they can be groomed for higher-level positions. So while you may do your current job just fine, you might not have the credentials (i.e. a degree) needed for the company to make much of an investment in you. Ergo, they'll replace you with someone who can not only do your job, but has the degree and the background to be worth training and promoting further. Best advice--quit and get a degree. Then you can tell potential employers of all the work you got before you even had a degree.
people may dislike you because of job security
reasons; and they would have nailed you much soooner or youd probably not have been hired at all.
The high tech industry has the most liberal people in existence. Dont get me wrong, prejudice does exist (mostly due to fear) but it is overshadowed once people click with you and get to know you better through work. And i am speaking as a visible minority.
Having said that, sometimes it's just attitude,
nothing to do with prejudice. Make sure this is not the case.
Most younger turks i have seen in high tech are a little hot-headed; think they know how to build a molehill, therefore its just as easy to build a mountain. The more experienced people tend to detest this. Try being humble; I am sure there is a lot for you to learn from the older farts. Try to learn from them and appreciate it if useful. Avoid over-showing your small knowledge, you still have a lot to learn.
Note, this is just advice; i am not accusing you of anything.
I've been in some similar situations. Working at an IT contracting company from age 20 to 23. I watched other less qualified people around me getting raises when I wasn't. When I did get raises they weren't as much as the other people. Some of these people that were getting paid more than me were people that I trained. Most of these people I talked to and they felt "bad" (really?) because they new I deserved a raise too. Yet they were the ones that ultimately left the company and I stuck around. I complained to my boss about not getting a raise (not mentioning that I knew others were, because salary discussions among employees were Verboten) Their reply was, well, if the company that you are placed at will approve us charging them more for your service then we can do it. Meanwhile I also knew that they were charging $45 an hour for my services and I was getting paid much less then half that.
Never got the raise. The company ended up terminating the contract with us and I got a job elsewhere for more, albeit a 6 month deal.. Now that is up and I am unemployed... Sucks.
Unless you are a John Birch Society member, I'd say you got shafted by the Big Green Tractor Company.
Sorry to hear that.
Right here
Covers Sun Tzu, Machiavelli, con artistry, politics and more.
If you're worried about how to deal with a power-hungry supervisor, there are chapters in that book covering that exact situation.
-------------------------------------------------
charlton heston is more of a man than yo
I could be wrong about this, but from an anti-discrimination seminar that I attended about 8-10 years ago, I seem to remember that the legal classification of "age discrimination" only applies to people "over 40". (therefore, if you're "under 40" the "age discrimination" laws don't apply).
perhaps it's because you failed to snatch the pebble from his hand.
-
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
You're 19, when you're 29,39,49... you'll have had lots of working relationships, some great, some good, some ok, some bad, some terrible.
This sounds like an 'ok' one. You probably thinks it terrible, but thats what 19 years are like.
Just a thought, but could it be also that a co-worker has "invented" this rumor in an attempt to get you to leave so he can take your position? I started working at a local TV station right out of high school, and this didn't make one of the guys who had been there for 11 years very happy. He took an instant disliking to me and then soon after problems started with some computers. Someone had been using them without permission. I got in trouble because I was the one with computer know-how. Turned out it was him and accusing me.
Ah the joys of the business world. Maybe I'll become a farmer. Yeah, no money to work with, bigger headaches, but at least you are your own business.
One of the things people need to learn (all people, but especially people on slashdot, who tend to be very competant at technical stuff but totally oblivious to matters of law) is that when you are hired by a company, in 99% of cases you are hired "as-is" by your employer. Unless you have an employment contract with a defined length of time (trust me, you don't) you can be fired for any reason except a few that the courts have determined are illegal.
Examples of these actionable reasons are sex/gender discrimination, racial discrimination, or sexual orientation (I think...) Age discrimination is on the list, but it's only for old people being replaced by new people. So it's illegal to fire someone who's really old just because they're really old, but it's perfectly legal to fire someone who's young just because they're young.
So the point is that you're hired as-is and can be fired for any reason other than those specifically prohibited. If your boss doesn't like your nose ring or your green hair, he can fire you, and it's perfectly legal. So there's nothing for slashdot to tell you--if you're fired, you're fired. There's no legal right to have a job. Deal with it.
IANAL, but have taken law classes. I could be wrong on terminology but the basic idea is right.
What's the deal here? Nobody behind the scenes at slashdot is literate? It's YOU'RE, damnit. Why is it impossible to read the news on slashdot without being subjected to sub-3rd grade level writing?
require evidence.
P.S. - I try to hire prospects who use proper grammar and spelling.
ubi dubium ibi libertas.
Document, document, document. I have been in this exact position, where my immediate superior was out to get me from day one. Reason: I was her technical superior, and she was afraid of me.
The only defense you have in the corporate world is documentation. It's been said before, and it bears repeating. Document, Document, Document!
Your 19 and have 5 year experience. .com world.
Playing doom with friends is not experience.
Few if any 14 year olds are hired for real jobs even in the
Maybe it is you and that why they want to get rid of you.
I got canned a year ago for doing my job. The (clueless) General Manager bimbo from sales fired me because I didn't sit in my office all day waiting for her calls (my email isn't working....{you have to put in your password}). I was too busy WORKING! In the server room...in the studios (this was a radio station), at the transmitter (there was only one of me). What's my point to all this? Sometimes people just don't 'fit'. It has nothing to do with the people involved; it's the situation, the chemistry. I've heard of people who worked in jobs successfully for years only to be fired a month after a new manager arrives. Sometimes it's as simple as the new person having a friend who needs work. I knew one manager who fired someone because they "Reminded them of someone they didn't like". It had absolutely nothing to do with that person at all! Most employees are 'at will' meaning they can be fired (or quit for that matter) with zero advance notice and no recourse. My advice to you? 1. Polish up that resume (with REAL full time experience). 2. Get another job. 3. Leave. Leaving can be interesting in itself. I know one person who gave zero notice and nailed a smelly old pair of his shoes to his boss's door with a note: "Fill these dickwad!". Frankly, I wouldn't recommend that way unless you plan to never speak with anyone from that place again (and don't plan to put it on your resume). It's customary to give two weeks notice, but that can vary depending on the situation. Usually the employer has the edge here; most insist on the two weeks from the employee but NEVER give it to the employee. I've given notice before and been told to leave the building immediately; I've also had employers try to make counteroffers and/or ask for a longer notice. Generally I allow neither; the former burns a bridge with the new employer and can result in long term animosity. The latter makes it harder on the new employer. A final note is this: Unfortunately all of us have to "put in our time". The day of the whiz kid frankly is over. My fiancee just reminded me that she spent many a day carrying coffee and ironing the wrinkles out of newspapers (!) for asshole bosses...and she has two Master's degrees! What she did get out of it was empathy for newcomers now that she's a boss (she'll settle for a wrinkled newspaper {LOL}!). Good luck to you.
Will always prevail against youth and skill
Unfortunately, it is true.
--jeff
ipv6 is my vpn
First, if he is trying to get rid of you, what would make you think he would go out and get drunk with you?
Second, in some states in the USA (I don't know about other companies), it may be illegal to tape another party without consent or knowledge. Federal law requires one party to consent, but some states require consent of both parties. And a violation of this is CRIMINAL
.
Fight Spammers!
As much as you'd like to think that maybe its only the technical experience you need for this job, maybe you've neglected other aspects of your position. With the current economic outlook, it would be relatively easy to replace you with someone who has twice as much experience in a heartbeat.
The real reasoning is most likely masked by the fact that we are only getting your side of this story. I imagine if we were to look into more detail from your employers position we would find many reasons to replace you with the right candidate. I'm not saying we should let ageism take over, but I honestly can't see how this plays in this situation.
Honestly, if you were working for me, and couldn't take the time to spell-check your emails/posts/reports/etc. then how am I to believe that your work is completely thorough? Just from reading your post, I get the impression that you are probably competent in technology, but your execution is not completely solid.
I would recommend going back to university/college and getting your CS degree to create your own competitive advantage.
a different job at some point is inevitable, so...
Find someone at the company that will speak highly of you, put him/her down as one of your references. Find out for sure if your boss is really on your side. If not, find someone else.
Recently I spoke with the HR director of the company I work for. I was told that they called ALL of my references, and they all spoke very highly of me. Golden to know, because if you don't... one of those pesky ex-boss references could wind up screwing you over. Again.
You just committed legal malpractice. That is not the law in the United States, though it may be state law in one or two cases.
This should not have been moderated up as insightful, but down as "just plain wrong" or "ignorant."
hawk, exq.
Well, I had the same problem in my freshman year in college. Then I hacked into the college main server and they took me seriously
I am also 19, but there is one major difference. My discrimination in the workplace always comes from my end - I am a supervisor. I've been trying to get rid of everyone over 30 for quite some time as none of them want to learn anything new if it means listening to me. If you are as smart as you claim to be, let them fire you... they will only be hurting themselves and you will get a new job without a problem.
It is important to do your best at work, but the appearence is also important.
For example, maybe you finish all your projects well, but you leave a bit earlier than the work ending hour.
Some (high-level) boss will probably notice this, and start asking your direct boss if you really do your job, etc.
Appearence is also important.
For example, stay late once every few days, and make sure the bosses notice you are there, working (for example by walking with some files on you, looking busy - but don't overdo it).
Please excuse my bad English - it is not my native language.
It won't go away anytime soon. I "earned" the moniker "The Kid" one place I worked. I was 22 and just out of the US Army. Everyone else was at least 35. I could run circles around them on the kick ass Novell 3.12 servers we had, and I was the only person to have tried that new NT thing... I eventually left about 6 months later for a different position doing Server admin. Still had the age issue. Age and treachery always looses to youth and skill... Sad but True...
You can do several things before calling a lawyer:
Attempt to DISCREETLY! get some concrete proof that can easily be construed to suggest discrimination.
If you have a Law Library in your area go there and ask around about filing with the EEOC. You want to be prepared for filing a discrimination complaint with the EEOC the moment anything discriminatory rears it's head.
In my own case I had a discrimination case in the bag, but I had not filed with the EEOC to get a "permission to sue" letter, and at least an investigation would have been started.
If they demote you without offering a review send a certified letter to the IT director asking him/her why you were demoted without a proper review of your performance.
If they do give a review, make sure to dipute any negative comments in writing.
Get everything in writing and prepared for a fight.
If you're not willing to do what you need to fight it, then suck it up get a good recommendation and start looking for a new place to work.
Where I work I am the second youngest. In youngest to oldest order...18 (our web designer) 19 (me, unix/win sys admin), 21 (President), 21 (Operations manager), almost 22 (Accountant, sales and marketing guy). The best thing about my job is that they were my age when they started the company, so they know what it's like to be looked down upon due to your age. I was even hired there without any experience! How is that for not being biaseed?
So your IT director may be a jerk, and very jealous. I say talk to him. Maybe he wants you to get certified or something so he feels better about keeping you on board. He may also be fearing his job being lost to you (wouldn't that be great!?) It also seems to me that he may be trying to force you out of the job indirectly. He's making you feel paranoid and uncomfortable, and you are thinking of leaving. That could be what he wants. Talk to him and get everything figured out.
BTW, don't get the wrong impression when it comes to the IT industry. There are a lot of good people out there, and if you are lucky enough you will find some people that respect you for your skills, regardless of your age.
Life is like pants... fit in or you don't fit in.
Make sure you CAN NOT be replaced!
Being replaceable means you can also be fired when times are tough (or when your manager hates you).
The folks who have had the most success at keeping their job and at getting promoted (that I've seen) have written poorly documented code that needs their constant attention to fix. If they were gone then the [important internal app] would break and their manager would be in trouble. The manager knew this and kept them (1) around and (2) happy.
(The true champ actually ran his code through an obfuscator so that there was no way for anyone else to figure out how it worked. He kept the commented nonobfuscated source on a system at home where it was safe)
Feel free to email me about the problem you're having. Your's and mine are very similar problems. macdaddy@ieee.org
It seems to me that what we are seening here in this forum is quite likly what is happening to RJ, and the IT comunity in general.
There are a number of IT professionals who have very strong opinions regarding what is termed "Professional Experience", and may feel that someone who is very young has not "Put in their dues". I can see where this could lead to some people making judgements about young IT professionals before really understanding their capabilities.
Keep in mind that you are dealing with a profession where the people who founded the technology that we work with, and are still working in the field today. And I'm sure many of them are in managment roles now and could feel that some young upstart could not possibably know more then them! After all they helped create the technology. I don't know if this is the case with RJ's situtation, but its a safe bet that the director is from another generation, mid 40's+, and may feel that RJ could not possibably have the experience that someone who is 25+ has. He probably thinks he can find someone with more experience that could do the job better. (And in the current job market, its a safe bet unfoutunatly)
One thing to remember about the "Real World" is that it is very political. Everyone is looking out for themselves, and have strong opinions on their profession. It may be that RJ has claimed 5 years of experience and the director feels the same way as many of the people posting here, that its not possible. And this alone could have marked RJ as a showoff, and no one likes a showoff.
As for advice, your best bet is to keep your head down, and do your job to the best of your ability. Look for oprotunities to be proactive, that is, don't wait for someone to tell you to do something if you know it has to be done anyway. One thing you can look forward to is, you will get older, and then for a breif time you will be the right age.
My $0.02
Good luck!
Ben
I mean really. You spout off your 5 years of experience at the age of 20. Did you go to high school? How did you work full time and attend high school at 15? Exagerating a bit maybe?
It may be that you really are an arrogant prick and therefore the bosses boss (or whatever) doesn't like you.
You may be smart.
You may be qualified.
But you may be a jerk so others don't want to play with you.
Look. When I was 28 I had a job where I was the youngest tech person by far. It was very hard for me NOT to come off as an arrogant asshole in front of my 50-year-old dinosaur coworkers.
I figured it out when later I had a job working with a 19 year old asshole. He knew everything except how to shut up. This reflected on him very poorly.
Are you sure this isn't you?
There have been numerous comments made about how it isn't correct to count 5 years of work experience between ages 14-19 as "5 years of industry experience". I don't disagree with this at all-- work done in high school, especially part time and for internships, is not equivalent to coming in every day for 8+ hours for 5 years, as an adult.
/so/ much smarter than everyone else my old fogey managers don't listen to me!" kind of thing. I've had the good fortune to work for and around some stunningly bright people (enough to know when I'm sometimes outgunned), and in some ways have learned more about what I /don't/ know that what I do. But I have worked hard and made a real effort to build up experience that will make me an attractive candidate for employment when I graduate next term. Many of my classmates don't have as much work experience as I do any way you look at it, and in this tight economy I obviously want to get that across, as well as the general notion that while I'm not exactly a seasoned professional, I have a reasonable understanding of my strengths and weaknesses in the workplace, at least enough not to make a complete ass of myself politically (and technically).
So, bearing that in mind, how are we supposed to talk about experience? I'm 20 and got my first job at 15, doing data entry and document layout for a startup, and had done some volunteer tech support for my high school before then. Since then I've done various (corporate and academic) sysadmin and programming work, and some work as a data analyst. I think all of this counts in some way as experience in the field-- even if it isn't equivalent to an adult's experience, neither am I talking about mowing lawns, flipping burgers, or fixing my grandparents' PC. This was real work for real companies, with problem solving, customer interaction, and exposure to office politics.
So far, when people ask me how many years of experience I have, I tend to say that "I've been working in IT since I was 15" (demonstrably true), rather than "I have 5 years of experience" (shaky ground). My resume makes it clear that much of this work was part time while attending school. Is that acceptable?
Please understand that I'm not trying to pull a "But, but, I'm 20 years old and even though I'm
I find it offensive when people discount my experience as worthless out of hand, probably like someone with 30 years in the industry gets annoyed when a 25 year old tries to play games of one-upmanship.
How can I talk about what I view as valuable time and experience in the workplace without coming off as a cocky know-it-all?
---- I'm going to lead you kicking and screaming, giggling and laughing into the future.
Do you really trust your boss? I don't! It sounds like your boss is the one who fears you because you're so good at such a young age and probably learn ALOT quicker than they do. I can tell you, that anyone of their age/position who tells you what your boss has, is simply trying to get rid of you and shift the blame to someone else. You know what to do?
1. Put together a document with
a. Everything you've done for the company
If you saved them money, did things under budget, make sure that's noted
b. Put together document from research you do on what others in your position are earning
2. read "Getting to Yes" (can find on amazon)
a. this book is amazing and will help you in your meeting with the director, it's a quick read
3. Set up a mtg with the director directly
a. being the document and talk about it
b. tell them your concerns and be honest/up-front!
I Garauntee you, when you take action, are well prepared and rational and REMOVE all personal problems from it, you'll get what you want and be happier 95% of the time. if you don't - you'll just give yourself an ulcer worrying about it.
Exactly. Just like when people spell the word "grammar" g-r-a-m-m-e-r, they look like morons. Especially when they're self-righteously flaming someone about proper English. And before you whine about my being an Anonymous Coward, I'll expect to see your real name, address, telephone number, email address, and a full C.V. Otherwise, STFU.
~~~
I suspect you're just trolling (or very stupid), but he is saying that while he has similar experience to the poster, he is NOT considering to to be real-world experience, because it is NOT. Read the entire thread.
I think that's the key thing, right there. Some people are natural hackers, and going to be great at programming. Some people get a formal education in computer science, and have a better knowledge base as a result. The best people have both.
A couple of years on a technical course may give you better "real world" experience, but if you want real world experience and minimal training costs, you shouldn't be hiring grads anyway. Anyone who's a natural hacker and also has a CS background will catch up and overtake the guys without the formal CS background in a matter of months, even with minimal training.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Which means that jumping jobs when you get bored
is the way to go.
Every day I learn something new, even if it
isn't related to my job per-se.
Tell you the truth If newness is what you want
then a production network where stability is
of paramount importance is not where you should be anyway.
Yes, I'm an old shit.
With a name like Cliff, Im going to assume youre a guy, ok?
Theres an easy problem if people resent you for your age: look older.
Grow a full beard. Everybody will think your a little older.
People don't resent the hippies with long beards, they resent the shiny clean-faced brats who look even younger than they actually are.
I can vouch for this; I quite remember distinctly one of my co-workers trying to fix me up with his sister-in-laws friend (or somesuch) who happend to be ~30.
I asked him how old he thought I actually was, he said 26? 27?
I had to take out my drivers license to get him to believe I had just had my 19th birthday some weeks earlier.
1. Money is tight right now and the economy is not as great as it was.
2. 30-40 year-olds generally have families to support; 19 year-olds generally don't.
I was working as a sys admin for a feminist NGO and I not only got discriminated by my age but by my sex as well! (being the only male in a feminist organization is fun at the begining but then it's a nightmate!) I ended up quiting after the 40 something office administrator tried to tell me to move my beatiful Samba-Mail server to MS Exchnage with no for reason and in top of everything i had no decsiscion making power! I respect their cause (actually they were fighting for womren rights in Afghanistan before it became fashionable -before 9/11- ) but i just couldn't handle!
--Manuel
"I hate quotations, tell me what you think"
Now THAT was funny!
Sigh. Assuming that I do not know basic grammatical rules is quite insulting; just because you learned them last week in your ninth grade english class does not mean the rest of us are unaware of them.
And you claim that I made a punctuation error? Please cite.
I was on the wrong message. Drat.
I recently had a 19 year old student on a 4 month university co-op program. Good programmer, easy to get along with, but behaved more like a 16 year old at times.
...
There were no specific issues, but enough to not want him on a long term basis. Examples work better here.
1) Asked to leave early Thursday and take Friday off to go sking. Okay, not a problem, except for the 9:00 PM Sunday message on my office voice mail asking me if it was okay to take Monday off. Comes in late on Tuesday and only explanation was he was having too much fun partying. Not a real biggy if he didn't have a habit of coming in once a week late after partying. Usual excuse was he would work 10-6 instead of the offices usual 8-4. Note: office is in a secure building, guess what supervisor had to do the paperwork.
2) Refused to include error checking in his software. Claimed his code was perfect, and error checking was for people who write buggy code, besides it let to code bloat and slowed things down.
Needless to say we gave him a negative review, which resulted in him not getting credit for the workterm. We considered this a failure on our part, since good performance is a team effort, and no one works alone. And its not like we didn't try and try and try
His response: Your jealous because I am younger, smarter and will make more money that you when I graduate. Too bad he couldn't listen, or notice the fall out of the dot.com job market.
The last point is very difficult, it requires that you can accurately judge what people think of your opinion, how much you know about the subject and the problem at hand and whether now is an appropriate time to interject. If I'm unsure I usually keep my mouth shut until I can grab the co-worker involved when they are on their own and obviously not busy and give them my suggestion then.
If you can manage to remember those things and apply them judiciously (there is no hard and fast rules) you should gradually develop respect among your co-workers and they will start coming to you and asking for your advice when they need it as well as generally treating you as equal, because you have shown yourself to be worthy of that respect.
Finally, notice how my advice aligns with much of the advice from the 30-50 year olds here? That's because 1) their right, 2) I've been smart enough to listen to them and 3) they're the older people you want to gain respect from, so listening to them is a very good idea.
What about my too old and my too young?? You got somethin' against 'em, Slashdot editors?? You better leave 'em alone!
Palaces, barricades, threats, meet promises
because I was a VP of Engineering at 19, with 6 employees under me who were a minimum of 10 years older. None of them ever had a problem with me. And not to brag, but we really kicked butt and made some excellent software... and everyone worked super hard, so I know that we all respected each other.
I doubt it's just age discrimination - you might be annoying in some way you're not aware of. So do the right thing and start asking people how you can be better at your job (especially ask your immediate boss!), take their advice seriously, implement it wholeheartedly, and see what happens.
If despite your best efforts nothing improves, find another job. Find colleagues who will write good recommendations for you. Document your work experience and be very specific about what you have done. Then go find another job, as if you are experienced and good you will have little trouble...
Just a thought.
You got that job in the first place. I'm 20, and would die for any kind of Unix admin job. I've been wanting that kind of job for 2 years now. I suppose I don't live in the right place to find something like that though. Small city, less opportunity.
However, in your position, I think I'd confront that IT Manager and ask him what the problem is. If he doesn't like that, and does decide to fire you without good reason, you've got grounds for discrimination, in which case, consult a lawyer.
If you never bring it up, you're going to continue working in an uncomfortable environment which would make any job terrible. Eventually you're going to have to discuss it, and it's better you do so while you still have the job, rather than doing it afterwards in the presence of lawyers.
-kidlinux.
REAL EXPERIENCE:
Try babysitting 150 teachers that want
outlook express on the desktop and complain
about their virus protection slowing down
execution and opening of files.
Now that's a shitter.
Seriously. If your boss's boss is out to get you, and isn't going anywhere, leave. Perhaps he has a reason to want you gone, good or bad, perhaps not. Ask a friendly co-worker if s/he thinks your boss's boss has something against you, and if so be gone. I don't know how many times I've had a co-worker who I liked sit on his hands saying he was looking for a new job, but wasn't doing much about it; they just sit and watch their good reccomendation turn into a lukewarm one into a poor one into being fired. While you're at it, think about if you could've done anything to have prevented the situation, whether it was reasonable or not, and if so, try to prevent a repeat at your next job. Leave while you're ahead, for godsakes!
[Oh, actually I do know how many times that's happened: 5 times in the 8 years I've been working. Kinda depressing. I don't even know how many times that's happened to a co-worker I didn't give a crap about.]
I had the same problem at a companyt Called Dancris Telecom. I was the Techsupport manager/Unix Admin for the ISP Division, and I was only 18. They hired a new CTO, and he took my maganment position away from me telling me that I didn't have enough experiance to do the job. Yet I had already completly turned the department around from when i had started, and managed it for over a year. I had even gotten several letters from customers complementing me on the new techsupport department. They gave my job to a 30yr old almost MCSE that had no managment experiance at all. After the CTO took my maganment title, then they told me they really didn't need a unix admin anymore (For a ISP that ran only Unix) and may soon place me in tech support. So I quite and found a better Job. The only advice I offer is to make it know about your experiances with your company, so that others can be aware going into your company. Perhaps /. should have a section aboput dead-beat companys that readers can post comments about, so when any reader is about to take a new job they can check out others experiance.
What did RJ do to piss off his IT Manager? Sure, I'll bet that we've all been victims of age discrimination at one time or another, like being expected to work longer hours and take on crummier projects than the "old folks". That said, I've rarely seen anyone fired for being too young, unless there is a reasonable explanation behind it.
We can only take guesses from what the story that has been told, but I'd imagine that something more than a clash of egos is going on here. Perhaps RJ has been gloating that he knows more than his co-workers to the wrong people, or that his skills really aren't quite as good as he thinks they are. Any 19 year old who says that he has 5 years experience raises suspicion immediately. Maybe he's been bad-mouthing his manager behind his back, the manager knows, and he's angry about it. Considering that RJ has posted his problems to Slashdot for the whole world to see, it's pretty obvious he isn't one of those people who like to keep his feelings to himself.
Or, maybe RJ is just overreacting to some rumors that he heard. Some people just like gossip to start trouble, and younger employees are usually the first to fall for it. Who knows, maybe his boss really DOES hate his guts, and really is out to get him! I doubt it, and would need some more proof before I completely believe RJ's story. That's one of the biggest problems with these "Ask Slashdot" posts, as you rarely get to hear both sides of an issue.
You don't know when to use than and when to use then.
but on a serious note, are you sure its an age issue and not an educational issue? I'm assuming you haven't graduated from college, so it could be that having you in a position that most would want a degreed individual in is the problem.
Whether this is still discrimination or not I haven't a clue. If he can argue that a certain title or labor grade requires a certain education (which is fairly common) then you are probably screwed.
Note, I'm not bashing on intelligence here, despite my initial poke.
The management turned a blind eye when your fellow employees would grill you about your religion, and anybody who would admit to a 'strange' religion (or no religion at all) didn't last long in that company.
A 'pagan' or atheist is going to have a hard time get the EEOC to take an interest in their claim of discrimination.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
I've always wondered what it matters what or who you are as long as you can do the job. In many peoples mind they may think this as well, but how many practice it?
How many times have men in the workplace descriminated or made fun of women cause most women in tech are inferior. I have meet two woman who are 'tech savy' the rest of the women I have meet in tech don't want to be. They get there and then they want to get into management. I have meet to many people that are not college educated and are young in the tech industry and many still want to 'play' on the job rather than work. You may not fall into this case, but it is something to consider. Beleive it or not college is kinda like a 'proving ground'. While you may already have the computer skill, you may not have the same 'maturity' that comes from college grads.
While you may be good at your job, are you mature? If everyone around you is around 30, I'd be willing to bet you they are all married or settled down in their carreer. By 30 most people are finally established. Personally I find it difficult to believe that you were 15 when you first started working in IT, but that is because when I was 15 work was the last thing on my mind.
Maybe your boss is worried that you will leave or know to much and are making him feel insecure. If this is the case then maybe he is actually worried that someone like you could take his job.
I am not sure there is much you can do unless you can actually prove that he is descriminating against you for your age and not something else. you may ask your fellow coworkers how they view you. Not jsut as a fellow employee, but as a person as well. Maybe he just does not feel like he can trust you. Older people have problems trusting younger people especially if there is an age difference of more than 10 year.
Only 'flamers' flame!
My boss, who now owns her own secretarial company, was forced out of a job under similar circumstances naerly 15 years ago.
She started working at a company as a suitably menial worker. Through hard work and intelligence, she rose to a position where she the equivalent of a network administrator, though they had some odd title for it. New VP gets put over the MIS department, and started kicking out all the people who did not have bachelors degrees... perhaps he felt it unfair that competant people hold high paying jobs that should be given to college graduates.
Whatever the idiot thought, he forced out half the upper IS staff and hired in (less competant, younger, higher paid) replacements. My boss was one of the last to be let go, on a faked accusation of company theft. What amazes me is that she was friends with the CEO... and the CEO knew the charges were false yet still let her be fired. He gave her an excellent severance package, but he still allowed her to be forced out of the company by an elitist asshole. Why he valued a hard working, intelligent employee and friend less than a lying, close minded beaurocrat... bah.
It is stories like this, and that of the poster, that reinforce my resolve to never, ever, work in a corporate environment.
Raven
"I will trust Google to 'do no evil' until the founders no longer run it." Hello Alphabet.
LOL, moderated down?
I find it helpful to have other hobbies that take my mind off programming and work. Quitting a job before you've found a new one isn't easy to do, but it all depends on your tolerance for political back stabbing and bs. My tolerance is low, so I politely say my goodbyes and find a new job.
Being the victim of descrimination is never an easy thing to take, but rather than just bitch about how bad you have it, remember there are those who have it a lot worse. Try being a gay hispanic catholic woman and see how much worse others have it. You're fortunate enough to work at a job you like, so make the most of a bad situation or simply find a new job.
FWIW - you can go two ways with this:
1) Bunker mode: You collect every rumor, document everything you do, and watch your job performance suffer because you're sorta paranoid about something that someone said - probably in a plan to get you to just quit so they don't have to fire you.
When you are fired, you can file complaints with relevant state/federal agencies, and make life hell for you and all involved as the company denies anything, and you bring out the documentation, etc. And by the way - you will have NO witnesses - despite what anyone says that they'll do for you. Several years later, your career is off-track because you've been focusing on lawsuits, and you *might* get some money... Whatever... You decide if this is worth it...
2) You recognize that your Director is older than you (ok, not much), and feeling threatened by the young punk, so you start talking to the guy (or girl, whatever). Make friends. Find out what his interests are - usually it's in making things more efficient in the department. Do you have viable plans for using what you have now, to do more for the company? What's the Return on Investment (ROI) - if it's less than a year, they'll usually do the project ( ROI = Cost to do project/Cost Saved Per Year).
Find out when he eats lunch, humbly walk up and ask to eat lunch. Make chit chat... Be friendly. Find out some personal interests that you may have in common.
Offer to train other employees to *SHARE* your knowledge. Offer to document things so others can learn from them.
The Director might say "sounds good, but have you talked to your boss about this yet?". You can say "no, I had some ideas and wanted to see if you had any thoughts on them first...". Now the ball is in his court - he'll probably mumble something about them being good, and tell you to bounce them off your boss. DO SO ASAP.
Say "hi" to this guy every day. Whenever you see him in the hall... Be friendly. If you find articles refering to what you have in use - and how someone else used it to save money, reduce cycle time, etc. - make a copy, toss a post-it on it and say "Bob, thought you'd be interested in this... John" Leave it on his chair at night...
3) If you're a contractor - realize that 99% of the time it's all about cutting costs. Contractors are expensive. They do lots of work, but rarely share knowledge, and they get plum projects so the troops are pissed at them. Plus, lots of contractors have a stand-offish attitude (not all, just lots). So what you do is go talk to the Director - find out if there's a way for you to share the knowledge of the job you've been working on with some employee (you know which ones are the favorites - recommend them). Say you'd like to start getting the employee up to speed so you can turn that project over and move on to other opportunities within the company. Make a few recommendations, nothing too crazy... What you're trying to do is to open up a thought in the Director's brain that you're not all about sucking money out of the company, but that you want to genuiniely assist and share.
4) Look for a new job. Find one. Take it. Quit w/two weeks notice, offer to assist after you're gone if necessary. Move on with life.
doesnt count as years of exp.
There are millions out there with "web page" experience. Mom's, 10 year olds. You claim to have 5 years?
Hmm you started at 15? Okay whats your real exp?
And this is a mans industry. Women have to work harder. But I remember VERY few women interested in those "computer thingys" in the late 70's. So when you step in and say your just as good as us guys with 25-30 years or IT exp... We go hmm.
Again goes back to everyone's a friggin computer genius.
Do i sound annoyed with all the recent computer genius's? Yeah its really annoying. Everyone's a computer genius... gah yeah. People need some humility also. Realize what your actually doing before you claim to be such a smart person. Generic web pages and network admin i could teach to a blind deaf dog.
But the kid needs to deal with it, it happens in every industry.
What really gets my goat is the fact that the "young-ones" immediately think that the "oldies" have no experience in computers. Lord knows then who created all the systems that predated their Quad Xeon for their Quake nights...
Hey guy,
I am 20, just turned it on the 21st. I've been working on computers since dos 3.0, and was in your position a while back. The person in charge eventually got canned, but then another, more ruthless person came in, and got rid of me.
The worst part was that I had just become engaged, so she took it as hard as I did.
<point>
The point is this. I am now the admin for a local isp. I don't make as much, but I am much happier. If you are looking around your back all the time, and what not, the best thing to do is to get out. There is always another job out there. I would just be wary as to who you tell your age, and what not. It's none of their business unless they can view your records, and you will know who those individuals are. Happiness is better than a good title in the tech world, at least in this position.
As to your boss. He is not your friend. He may be a good chum, but in the end, I would stick to the rule of keeping your friends close, and your enemies closer. He can still fire you after all. And don't think he won't.
</point>
I'm only 28, and I have over 75 years of IT experience (from past lives) - 8P
But seriously, no matter how much experience you think you have, you have to pay your dues. Basically, the more you learn, the more you realize you still have to learn. There's a lot to be said for the variety of skills and knowledge you pick up in college and working in structured development environments. I have a Master's in CS and have been developing software professionally for 7 years. I used to think I knew it all, but every day I learn something new. You can't just say I have umpteen years of experience and expect that to carry much weight. The IT industry is very dynamic, and you have to keep up with the latest technology in your field by learning constantly. If you're worried about your position, try to show them how valuable you are with your ingenouity to solve problems where others can't. And like the other posters stated, try to make friends with this guy by doing pet projects for him.
How big is your company? Is it small enough that you could find out anything about the Vice President's that's over your IT Director?
If it's a very large one, use the IT director.
Learn where he goes to church.
Start going there, get active, Sunday School, Choir, volunteer computer work. Greet the VP/Director, but don't be chummy. Be respectful, but let him know you work for him. (not the company, him)
Show the baby.
One day you'll get a chance to say in front of the VP and the church goers what a great company you work for. What good care they take of you, wife, and child.
Do not drop his name at work.
If you get a chance to say hello at work, do so, but don't try to engage him in personal conversation except to answer his questions.
You love the company and all the people you work for are great.
If those lying assholes start giving you the bad performance review, start letting the people at church know you may have to look for a job, do they know anyone? Either you get a job with people you know, or the VP kills the IT director.
You must start taking night classes to get some kind of degree. Someday, you will be the boss, and someday you will have department of smart kids of your own to look after. Try to remember what is what like for you.
Cynical? Not really. This is how the VP's got their jobs.
The best revenge is long term. In 8-10 years, your boss and fellow workers will be nearly unemployable, whilst you will be merely less young.
Everything is in front of you; just wait for it.
But, remember what it felt like to be discriminated against for you age when youare peering at someone's resume some day. Judge on the merits, or the potential, not the calendar, when you are the hirer.
Most older people (35+) are cool, and will recognize your greater talent so long as you don't try to disregard their greater experience. In other words, let them tell you what the goals are, and they'll let you tell them how they can best be reached. But some people will resent you... ex: where I work there's this one old asshole. His skills have not been current for 20 years, so he can't really do anything besides lecture people. Every chance he gets, he's trying to dominate or patronize the younger guys. Alernatively disparaging their abilities or giving them wise (bullshit) advice. Since this guy has no social skills, he is not a manager (he can't fire anyone). But maybe you have become a victim of a similar guy.
You can try to go to "Mr. Asshole"'s boss and formally ask for a resolution. Maybe you can get reassigned to an area where you won't be under Mr. Asshole anymore. When your boss hates you, there's not a lot you can do. You've just got to remove yourself from the situation, either by switching bosses or switching companies. Remember, if Mr. Asshole had the power to unilaterally fire you, he would have done it already. If you can't make a lateral transition into another job, then your choice becomes simple. Keep doing good work, hang on until the economy gets better, and then ditch that company. From this point forward, you should be saving all the cash you can and be mentally ready to quit at any time. In your exit interview, make sure you mention you're leaving because of Mr. Asshole. (Don't excessively disparage him, because that is unprofessional.) Good luck...
"The advanced societies of the future will be driven by competing systems of psychopathology." -JG Ballard
You got your "too"s right. Why can't you get your two "your"s right too?
Why the fuck can't people correctly spell 'you're' when trying to substitute for 'you are'? It's the little things like this that are keeping this young fella down.
Did you ever consider that maybe people shun you because your a computer geek? I once thought I was in your situation at a company. Everybody that I worked around seemed to look down upon me and uninterested in talking to me on a professional level. My first instinct was that because I was so mucher younger they were ignoring me. But about a month or so later when all the other 'young' interns starting working the people I tried to talk to engaged the other interns in conversation on a daily basis and even after work. My final assumption was that I was too geeky to fit in with most of the non-IT crowd.
Read "Every Employee's Guide To The Law" by Lewin G. Joel III. It's published by Pantheon Books in the USA. It contains a chapter on what to do if you have been wrongly fired. It also contains a lot of advice on how to handle discrimination issues before somebody ends up getting fired.
I've had a similar experience being 21. My skill set doesn't coincide with my experience, so I would appear unqualified on paper. At my last job I was in many ways taken advantage of because of my age. There were many assumptions made about me, but I really can't blame them for this. A vast majority of people our age, as well as people that would descriminate based on our age, are/were more interested in getting fantastically entoxicated and getting some than taking their careers or anything else seriously. That's not to condemn their behaviour, more to state that if I were given the task RIGHT NOW of hiring the best people I could for the job I more than likely would not start looking at the 20 year old bracket first.
It's certainly unfortunate though when people take this too far. You have to actively take care of yourself. I don't think there's a way around this. All you can do is be a stand up guy and if you feel you're being mistreated bring it to their attention in a calm way. Anyone willing to listen will realize that they are in the wrong; and anyone else just can't be helped.
I had to respond to this post:
:-)
Even though I have Master's in Computer Science and a Bachelor's in Math and another in CS, I don't think that the degrees are needed per se. Granted, if you want to work for a public company or gov. job then it will usually be a prerequisite. When people buy/download software, how many people check to see what degrees are behind the product? You try and see if how it works, or hopefully you read some reviews (if it's paid software) and go from there. (Did (do) people stop buying from MSFT, Apple or Dell, when they find out that Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, or Michael Dell dropped out of college?)
As for those who point out the marvel of socialization or learning a new way to think or solve problems, I'd say baloney! You don't need a college degree. There are many ways to get educated -- the school path happens to be one way. Or as a teacher loved to remind me, "don't let school get in the way of your education." (I've learned to program on my own since I was in high school (back when I was programming on PDP-11's for self eduation, while using PET computers for playing games), which eventually convinced me that schooling isn't such a big deal and, hence, homeschooling is the best way to educate children, but this belongs in another thread
In my 14 years of full time work experience (I'm 37), I've met programmers without college degrees who were great coders while those with even graduate degrees not able to code anything more than a simple algorithm. As a side note, I was amazed to see some of my classmates who didn't have a good grasp of programming end up with degrees -- I realize that not everyone can self teach how to program but it sure made me wonder (about them and the companies that hired them).
What does it boil down to? Years of work experience and how well the person deals with coworkers/bosses/customers. Those are the stuff I'd look for, if I ever become a hiring manager and the company I work for doesn't mandate certain degrees and/or certificates.
Danny
Danny Kumamoto
...who mailed several programming newsgroups over the past months and often tells pros that they do not know what they are talking about? Just curious.
Here's a job you might be suited for: Help wanted: applicant must have 10 years IT management experience, PhD in computer science, good working knowledge of Unix, MS Windows NT, fluent in English, Spanish, and Urdu. Must be COBOL, C++, and Java master programmer. Willing to work and live in Greenland. No housing. No benefits. Starting pay $3.75 per hour. No paid overtime. Must be under 20 years old. Spelling not important.
The excuse being used is that the people who occassionally see their kids aren't working the same number of hours as we 24-year old single folks. This is being enforced by our VP, who has two kids but typically spends 80+ hours at work a week (no problem with priotiries there, eh?).
Hell, just last week the person in the cube next to me got a talking-to because she "left early" (went to see her son's orchestra concert -- at 7 PM). My veep told 'er if she does it again she'll be "in a bad position for future layoffs".
Of course, if you read my past comments about my company, this shouldn't be too shocking. I can't wait for the economy to recover so I can escape that shithole.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
"Yes, I know you all hate me, fired me, but the judge says I get to work here. Is there coffee on?" What kind of poison workplace do you think that becomes?
Keep your nose clean, and look for a better job instead. Then at your new job you can tell all the nasty stories about them you want.
"If you screw the company, everyone who works there is going to mark you down as a bad guy to work with, and that means everywhere that anyone you worked with works in future isn't going to hire you."
Not necessarily. At the company I work for. Quite a few (read:a lot) know that the company sucks and that managment treats it's workers in less than "desirable" way. The company even has a rep. outside that makes people say "you work for that company?".
The only ones you might have to worry about in the future are the very same people who made the present situation. I'll take my chances.
Why did you tell them your age? Legally they only need to know that you are 18+. That's where your response should end (if you care). I also question 5 years experience at age 20. Did you drop out of highschool? Maybe that's why they are going to fire you.
Corporate america sucks. At least you are learning this while you are young. As a person who has been there, take this advice: DON'T QUIT. Keep a record of your projects for future resumes, I've learned that when you leave a company, most of them cannot give you any kind of a recommendation besides 'Yes, they worked here from X to Y.' Leagally any recommendations could come back to bite them. Ride it out, and pick the right time to strike.
---
"That's Homer Simpson sir. One of your drones from sector 7G."
Well, sonny boy, it is time you paid your dues. You don't even have an education yet, so who the hell are you trying to bullshit? Get a college degree and another 10 years of experience, and then maybe I'll listen. But you are the low squaw on the totem pole, junior. Deal with it, sonny boy.
When they say "years of experience", it always means how many years you've worked full time at your various jobs. Working part time, or on the side for a few hours a week doesn't count towards "years of experience" as much as working full time does.
Given this, most people who are in their early 20s have at most 1 to 3 years of "real world" experience in ANY field, not just IT.
In case of fire, do not use elevator. Use water!
1. Unless you have a contract stating this is improper, it is completely legal in the united states. Age discrimination is only actionable if you are over a certain age,usually around 40. He can say to your face, in front of the entire company, "I am treating you this way because you are 19. If you were older I would not." You still would not be able to do anything about it.
2. Age discrimination is the last legal form of discrimination in the united states. You can no longer fire someone for being homosexual, black or old, but if they are too young or lack experience, have at them. It is also perfectly reasonable to show preference to people with experience, even if it is not relevant to the job. In the fast paced world of IT, do you think it matters if someone has 1 year or 5 years of experience? If you think that is reasonable, the same applies to people who work on assembly lines. There is no value to this hueristic, but it is still socially acceptable. This is analagous to people who choose not to employ minorities because they considered their work ethic suspect. Listen to the comments posted and replace youth with a minority status and see how you feel.
3. The youth in this country have it far harder than we did 30 years ago. Home ownership and other measures of real wealth show this disadvantage.
4. The solution, rise up!
I have the exact same problem, I am 30 and yet I look 19, which is not a bad thing in the dating scene, but for work it sucks. I can't get any respect from the people who are older looking than me, they expect me to be some smart ass punk kid, I work with millions of dollars of hardware and thusly people are more hesitant about letting a "kid" touchy their expensive toys. I had one outside tech actually ask me if this was my summer job, sheesh.....
I'm not saying that being 19 disqualifies one from being qualified for the job....but how do you have five years of experience? What companies hire 8th/9th graders into their IT staff?? --Mike
I have a 19 year old co-worker who is technically apt and can do the job of three people. The problem is dealing with him on a "personal" level. He has no level of maturity, or any sense of responsibility. He has gone from Raving all night to working on mission critical projects and then complains for having to stay up. He will put forth his ideas, and when people don't agree with him, he thinks the idea was rejected because of his age... when in fact it is management/vendor motivated and he can't see that. I don't want to work with the guy, which is sad because I can learn a lot from him, solely because of his ego and reckless attitude.
As far as getting rid of people for descrimination? They wil find something else. Just one thing, and that's all it takes. What I've found, from experience, is that they will take one little off handed comment you made-- in the smoke room or someplace other than a metting room-- and turn it against you and to their advantage, "But you said you didn't like working with these people, so we're relocating you to Alaska office".
Shut up, and do your job... I think that goes for any age.
You could always find evidence that he's an incompetent director and get him fired. Work hard at it and he'll be gone before you know it. I've been directly responsible for getting a total of 4 of my bosses fired over the last couple of jobs I've had. Do unto others before they do unto you.
Welcome to the world of reverse-discrimination, democracy's answer for the working masses. If you are black or a woman (or better yet, a black woman!) the HR department will be too scared to fire you for fear of suit.
If you are a caucasian male, 20-30 years old, you are expendable. Accept it, do what you can, and take other people's advice on here.
Except for one thing...if someone threatens your job, destroy them. It really is that simple. Smear campaigns, illicit rumours, publicizing some past error, etc. use your imagination it works.
Look at it this way: if we were still cave ppl and someone came to take away your food or cave, you'd bash him in the head. Well, we live by different rules now so you can't do that sort of thing, but the threat to YOU is all the same.
rip out the old and rebuild to a new, documented, usable solution.
I have little tolerance for any management system or employee that believes a "i'm the only one who knows how it works" is a good answer in any way, shape or form.
I put up with a similar problem, however there was no reason (that i could find) that the person had to dump on me. The guy just picked a person at random and dumped on them. I wasn't the first, and i wasn't the last. I also want the only person to complain about it. Just remember, you can always go somewhere else & work for more monney or for their biggest compeditor out of spite.
-TubaMan / ThE_DoOmSmItH
It has recently come to my attention that our IT Director is trying to either find a way to get rid of me or transfer me into a miserable job position, all because of my age. My Boss explained to me he thinks it has to do with a bit of jealousy. Everyone I work with is over the age of 30 and the IT director is in his mid 40's."
IANALIAAAC, but jealousy is a perfectly legal reason to fire someone.
I am an employee for a network support outfit in New Zealand. I have great bosses, and I frequently get to see "their side" of employment issues.
I'm not sure what the law is like in the States, but here it is getting silly. It's basically impossible to fire an employee for damn-near any reason. Discrimination cases frequently crop up, and everyone always takes the employees side in the ensuing debate. It's always the "big bad company ate my balls/stole my llama/killed my dog/whatever".
I realise that laws need to protect the employee against unfair dismissal, harrassment in the workplace, etc, but lets never forget one important point:
The business does not belong to the employee.
If I was an employer, and decided I felt like firing someone who had started to get on my nerves, I'd like to think I could say to the employee: "hey, I'm not happy - for x reason. I think you need to leave. How can I help make this a smooth process for us both?".
If neither side is unreasonable, there really need be no issue. These days (here in NZ anyway), it's always "hire lawyer first, discuss problem later".
Just a thought for anyone in the same situation as above, or perhaps a more extreme one. Before you get all het-up and feel "discriminated against", just take time out and ask: "If I was the boss, would I feel within my rights?"
A bit tangenital, but I hope someone takes something from this.
Prisoner #655321
And you claim that I made a punctuation error? Please cite.
The punctuation looks OK, but your spelling of consistent could be corrected.
There are one or two companies in the world that really are that bad, but they never last long. Are you perhaps exaggerating a little to make your point?
The companies I know of -- and there are many -- where you or I probably wouldn't work given another choice, all have good people there as well. It's usually very senior management who are screwing everything up, though a single idiot can do it for you if you're working directly for them. Either way, the last thing you want to do is leave all the good people with the impression that you're so self-focussed that you're willing to screw the whole outfit just to make a petty point.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
it's a shame it probably won't get read
mod this up
The problem with a lot teenagers and some twenty year olds is their ego. From the post, I can tell that the poster thinks quite highly of his/herself. One could have twenty years of experience and do as well as someone who is a beginner in the field. Years don't define the quality of one's knowledge, nor do paper certifications.
So to say one is qualified for a job merely based on years of experience (how much "experience" one gets out of those years is quite variable), and some multiple choice tests is rather ignorant. The poster gives the impression that he/she is a big-head who thinks he/she is better than those who have their college degree (and don't bloat their knowledge-level), but truly is on the level of someone who just got out of high school and has no understanding of what a decent IT job requires.
First you can't get the job, then some (usually incompetent) manager decides one day they don't like you anymore and you're back looking again.
No second chance. No recourse. No way to pick up the pieces. Credit destroyed (again). Savings gone. Another three-month job on the resume. Next company always hesitant: not sure if you're "reliable" enough. Bills due, past due, late, delinquent... Start over. Again, and again, and again...
Put your degree at the end of the resume. Those years in college don't matter. Only experience matters. Move your experience at these three companies over here, because those don't count either. Oh, and don't list these projects, because that's the wrong platform, and those projects are the wrong language. So, here's your one-page, one-job, no-education resume which is supposed to show you have four years experience. Now, go get that job!
Didn't people have careers at one point? I seem to remember stories long ago of people who worked for years at the same company and didn't walk around in constant fear of being fired for no apparent reason.
Every IT job seems to start a clock the moment you are handed your W-4, and it is only a matter of time before the whining starts and everyone starts updating resumes.
Can't make any progress this way. Companies that whine about not being able to make any money ought to spend a couple of minutes looking at how much it costs to have an 85% turnover rate. Of course, what do they care? As long as they can keep the paychecks coming, they don't have to actually produce anything.
Ever notice how the plant-watering, stuffed-animal-decorated-desk-occupying, ALWAYS recently newlywed (usually female), picture frame surrounded HR types NEVER EVER EVER EVER want for a salary, or a new car, or a decade+ of gainful employment, even though they only spend three of every eight hours AT that desk, and can't tell the difference between there their and they're?
Do the IT people ever get that? Or are we rather making sure we don't leave anything valuable at work because our keycard might not work tomorrow?
I put in seven years learning numerous programming languages/platforms, etc. Four years of web development (server-side, mainly) Four years of Linux. Two years of Perl. Year of C++. Employers could care less. All wasted time. It's never enough. More, more, more.
You could always consult the oracle
Australianus Geekus
So...how do they know you're 19? It's not like it's really any of their business. What would they really do if you told them you were, say, 22? Call your mother for verification? There is no law that says that you have to give them your real age (or name, or whatever). It isn't a government job is it? (in which case there *may* be laws). It's really none of their damn business how old you are and AFAIK you are not obligated give this sort of information.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
I am 18, and I notice the same deal. I have more knowledge then the entire staff of my school and network administration COMBINED, yet in "the real world" I have difficulties finding a job in computers. I'm just in high school, and maybe some consider this naive, but I have been using computers since I was three and programming since twelve. Why doesnt 15 years of computer experience count? Why not 6 years of programming? Reading an earlier slashdot post about a fast-track CS degree and know that myself capable. In fact, I plan on majoring computer engineering and am writing an extended essay for school on quantum computing. Why am I at a disadvantage?
I turned 20 in September and will be celebrating my 5 year anniversary in IT in May. At age 15 I applied for a 20 hr/wk internship for an engineering firm doing simple tech support and "web page design" when it was still largely a new field. That 20 hr/wk job went 40+ during the summer and back to 20 hr/wk during the school year.
.com (it died) and have been @ a very large financial firm
In a couple years I migrated up to consulting work for the company's clients as well as training and proposal writing. I started working FT right after I graduated high school @ 17. I then took a 3 month stint as an NT Administrator @ a
for a year.
While of the 4.5 "years" of experience I say I have, there is only about 3 years of full time experience, I am certain that I have learned and grown far more than many of my peers who have been in the industry twice as long as I have.
I would argue that anyone under 25 working in IT has had a situation where their ability or professionalism has been question... I know I have.
Reverse age discrimination is just as prevalent as the original
Don't knock this: age discrimination DOES exist. There are high falutin' MSCE holdin' 40 year olds who don't know how to install Windows and think a server is a sexual slave who would absolutely spaz out at an 18 year old wunderkund telling them what to do. Their argument? Real Life Experience (RLE). Being 40 can gives you quite a bit of that. Those 40 year old guys probably know more about, say, taxes than you do, and more about their wives yeast infections. That happens. They assume this RLE gives them the right to superiority... as if that WERE a right.
We all exist in minor levels of discriminations, but your best bet is to move on. Peacefully, and quietly. Move on as if it's in your best interests, and find a job that will fit you better UNLESS you're convinced that this job *IS* the best job you will ever have. Trust me: you're 18. It's NOT.
Side comment: Age discrimination isn't easy to prove. Your bosses could easily claim your complaints as "immature whining" to bolster their opinions for moving you down the corporate ladder. Discrimination sucks, and sometimes the only one who realizes it IS discrimination is YOU.
I am in my early 30's, guys in their 40's got to keep their jobs and got to be brownnosing the boss to make up for their faliures.
But there is no Computer Union, if there was I'd still have my job.
One guy was fired because he was young and having marriage problems with his wife. So they fired him. Replaced him with someone older.
Another guy got married to a secretary so they fired both of them. yet my boss married a woman that worked under him and they kept both of them on?
Favoritism ran rampant at that place. I got the sh*t assignments that nobody else wanted, and the good stuff got assigned to the boss' buddies. Then when they goofed it up, they gave it to me to debug and document.
I was there for four and a half years, in five years I would have been earning a pension. That is the real reason why they wanted to get rid of me.
In my job history, I started when I was 18, I never experienced anything relating to discrimination, jealousy or hatred by the elders. In most cases most of the old timers(40+) usually tried to take me on as a protege, or some such. But I was not into IT, I got into programming instead. How about others that started a career in programming in early age? I'm thinking that the fact that one is more of an engineering type(programming) and IT is more like technical skill plays a role? Maybe programmer don't feel as threatened by new comers because that skill set does not have to change very ofter. Where as in IT, it's a constantly changing world?
I'm 23, been doing admin stuff and tech support since I was 17. Sure, i've got 6 years experience, but these elder fellows are right. We haven't been around nearly as much as they have. There's a -wide- variety of places that most of these current net admins have been before there was even such a thing as net admins. They have a lot of experience behind them that we'll never have. I don't expect to be in any type of serious admin position until i'm 27-28.. You really need to hop around different companies and soak in different places and software before you can be a good netadmin, these days.
Keep in mind something here, IT people are primarily TECHNICIANS , that is they aren't doing systems design,programming etc. Theymight decide what might go in a specific server box but they aren't the ones designing it or writting applications for users. Thats what programmers are for.
Since IT people are Technicians an AS or or trade school, certifications etc are requried. A CS degree really isnt necesscary to "fight fires." The above poster is right on track for this subject.
A CS degree gives you a programming background as well as an easier means of moving in to management. (I'm an electrical engineer for the government by the way.) Its like the saying, what happens to old engineers, they move in to management. Now if all you want in life is to be a technician, then don't bother with a 4 year degree. If you have programming aspirations or would like an easier path to management, get the 4 year degree.
Yes, I have known "natural" engineers and programmers who really didn't need the technical knowledge they learned from their degree, but it was the interpersonal skills they learned in group projects and classes as well as the diploma that got them the job. Besides keep in mind initially when you get out of school its your grades as well as WHERE you went to college that gets you the job in addition to whatever technical questions the interviewer may ask you. Its that diploma that gets you past HR and into the interview.
Also, if you are getting a BS in CS, get in to the top name schools (yes its ovbous) like CMU, RPI, MIT, WPI etc rather than a general liberal arts school if you want a more technically focused education.
In regards to the person who posed the Ask Slashdot question, its always easier to think its someone elses fault than your own. Take sometime and evaluate yourself to see what mistakes you might have made. Also nearly 5 years of professional experience is BS!!! Your employer would have broken a number of child labour laws if you were working full time at the age of 14 or 15. Yes you canhave working papers, but you can't work a full work week(at least in NJ where I grew up) also how would you balance high school with a 40 hour a week job? Certanily possible during the summer but not during the year, unless you quite school with your parents approval at age 16.
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
You're 19 and you say you've had 5 years "industry" experience. Now I might have been smoking dope and getting laid when I was 14, but I know I had to be at least 16 to get a job in the "industry".
What's sad here is watching this community itself engaged in rampant discrimination.
I find it really sad how when I post my article now, I have to state my age (25), and how long I consider having experience (15 years), and my justification for it (not all experience is pure work).
I'm currently working as an Information Architect for a company designing mobile applications. Do my experiences with computers as a ten-year-old warez kiddie mean anything? Heck yeah! I grew up with no manuals or anything. Intuitive design was everything!
I was on a computer about 6-8 hours a day during the school year, and probably around 12-14 outside of school. I don't think I've spent as much time on a computer since. Not all of it was playing games or testing out applications, but tweaking systems to run faster, playing with protocols to transfer faster, and so on.
When I graduated high school at 17 (an option NO ONE posting considered so far), I knew more about how DOS and Windows worked than the guy at the PC store. I went to university, played with Solaris and MacOS, and so on.
Nowadays, people don't ask me my age. (Facial hair helps a LOT!) They don't question when I can honsetly says I have 15 years experience with computer systems. And here in Finland, when they do realise that I'm 25, they don't scoff, blink, or otherwise. That's more normal here than not.
But, what's really sad is the bunch of old guys here who question and slander because, well, I guess they're jealous too.
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. - G.B. Shaw
Being a technician versus being a programmer doesn't imply one is more valuable or better than the other or that one requres more intelligence than the other. Theyarejust two different career paths. Sure both may lead to management, but in a larger corporation, I would say someone with a four year degree or advanced education(MS,ME or an MBA) is likely to go higher up the corporate ladder.
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
You've got to be very, very good to get away with being precocious and immature. Usually that means you're so bright that you also modify your behaviour accordingly. It becomes more of a problem at the fringe, for those people who are easily impressed by themselves.
1. Don't be in a rush to become your Dad. Wageslavery sucks. Smart people spend their late teens/early 20s drinking and sleeping around. It is called College!
2. Don't assume you know everything. Nobody does. People who think they do get "automatically hated" by everyone else, no matter what their age. Why? because it is annoying as hell.
3. Don't be in a rush to be your Dad. Marriage sucks. Smart people spend their twenties and early thirties sleeping around. People who marry young are idiots... but they don't realize that until they are in their 40's. See #1.
4. Don't be in a rush to be your Dad. Parenthood sucks. Smart people wait until they are finincially OK before they begin reproducing. Nothing drains your coffers faster than mouths to feed. See #1 & 3.
--old wise fart
a) You're not as good as you think you are (who says your previous employers were worth a damn?)
...
b) At your age, you don't realize that many of the things you think are "stupid reasons" aren't.
c) You could just be an immature brat that they hate working with.
Nothing personal, and I'm not over 30 - but everything isn't some conspiracy based on discrimination. I've worked with enough dipshits of ALL ages
So when did IMHO, and "shitty" become proper grammar? Retard.
The advice I can give is if you don't feel right about it then do your best to find another job in the meantime. Just don't use company property to print resumes or visit jobsites, or send emails to people talking about anything related.
My own recent situation involved 4 years in the same company. One day I was on lunch but didn't feel like going anywhere. I happened to glance over to see my boss and the head IT guy sitting at my computer and discussing what I might have that is incriminating. Meanwhile I just tried to do a really good job because I had nobody to turn to when the biggest wigs are in on it. Things got worse to the point where I started having people follow me around like the FBI. I even had one guy physically push me away from my workstation, pull up my process list before shrugging his shoulders to someone peeking around a corner accross the room, then storming off without saying anything or even apologizing. I ended up talking to some of my managers and told them I was concerned because I wanted everybody to like me and that I was trying to do a good job. Then, I'm consistently being named employee of the month, even on consecutive months, got a promotion, raise, etc. and my managers start telling me "you are doing so well and we are so proud of you" while I still have the spooks following me. Yeah right... months later they up and fired me and told me it was because I was ONE minute late to work! They didn't give me a separation notice. I am still trying to get another job (have two second interviews for nice IT jobs on thursday thank GOD), but I am trying to draw retro unemployment benefits and I'm going to have to appeal it because they now claim I was fired for "work related misconduct". To be honest, I don't know why they really fired me and I'm not in denial about anything either. At least you have an idea of what they may have against you. I hope you can use that to your advantage. Good luck to you and your family, and God bless.
A college degree is no picnic to get. It's four years of hell, and it's signed by an institution whose reputation lives and dies entirely by the success of its graduates.
You can choose that, or you can choose some guy who makes himself sound good in a one-hour interview. They say they're good, but you have only their word (hah!) and that of one or two references to base it on.
I in the same sort of problem also. I have 18, and have with with my company (a small state funded instituion) for a little over three years now. I have been highly recommended by all the staff there who all love me, from the day I started out as a peon. For my first promotion I had to fight, and play the system in order to move it (it was for more money, the job wasnt too much better than what I was doing in the first place). All the staff thought I should have been moved up, but the administration danced around the idea. They've had no problem promoting people 20 years older than me before! My second promotion was more or less handed to me. The Systems Admin/Head of Technology decided to leave, and needed to find a replacement. He gave them one month notice, so they could start looking (they would never find anyone as the rate they were offering). He personally trained me... and I have 1 month to learn the ins and outs of Linux (thats right, only one month). All the staff wanted me to have the position, but still, the administration danced on. No one else was even close to qualified, or want the job. So they ended up giving it to me. I report directly to the director, and even attened Department Head Meetings... and I have all the responsibilities of a Department Head... and I do them well. But I'm still not a department head. There is no "real" department head in my department. And when it comes to pay rate... I've been royaly cheated. For as much as I made myself learn in one month (15 hours a day for 31 days learning this stuff)... and for the job I do, Its just a smidgen more than a Manager as McDonalds.
Now that you've heard that long DRAWNNNNNN out story... heres the rest. It seems as though I may report the the "big heads" they dont respect me. I've proven myself more than I should need to, but they still don't care. It seems hard for people in their late 40's or 50's accept someone not even through college yet having a job as good as their (no offence to those of you who CAN handle that.) Unfortunatly, there is no where around her that pays what I'm making for this fun of a job. Even though the pay stinks, its a awesome job with many pluses, even if I am working my tail off.
with any superiors because even if you are right you will lose. Getting into a fight with your boss is like showing up with a knife at a gun fight (that's a quote from some famous movie, I don't remember which, flame me). They can always fire on the spot with out cause. Most states are "Employment at will" which means the don't have to give you a reason, and you can bet that if they did it wouldn't be an illegal one. Also in this economy if you piss off the director bad enough you manager will save his own ass and congradulate him on his descision. My advice, work your frickin butt off if you aren't already. Be the goto guy for ass much stuff as you reasonably can be. Talk to the director and ask him what you need to do to make him happy and if he dislikes you, what you did to deserve it. Make ammends as best you can even if director seems completely wrong. Unfortunatley your daughter may be depending on your ass kissing abilities. And with five years experience, you should know that ass kissing is a part of every profession (yes even the CEO has to kiss the stock-holders collective ass).
That deserves a 3 Funny...
Cmon guys....mod em up!
"Look where we worship" -- Jim Morrison
Well, believe it or not - I've actually had encountered a number of individuals appling for jobs come close to this! One claimed to have had "15 years of computer experience" and it turned out he was only 20. Another claimed to have been a "professional programmer with over 10 years of experience" and wasn't much older! Sure, maybe they weren't 'technically' lying - and maybe in the Internet boom years someone would have bought such statements without questioning their ages - but today?!
You are right - it is not simply technical skills that are important but also the maturity of behavior that counts (e.g. knowing how to get along with people - even the boneheads above you ...). Maturity generally comes with age (along certificates from the school of hard knocks).
My first suggestion is to relax. I dealt with the same thing when I was 19, being only the second statistics-literate person in a Ford plant that was desperate seeking their Q1 quality award (back in 1986). I got precisely zero respect at first from any of the guys there at first, who were all 15 - 40 years my senior. However, once it became obvious that I knew what I was talking about while they didn't, the majority treated me much better while the minority hated my guts. If you're as good as you think you are, then the respect will come. If it doesn't, you might want to re-evaluate how good you really are as opposed to how good you think you are. Those older than you aren't stupid; they may be unfairly skeptical, but they'll come around if you've got the stuff to prove yourself.
As soon as I got my driver's license, I had a job 30 miles from home doing systems administration for a small manufacturing facility. Built out an IPX network using Novell Netware for the sales office, and later extended this network to the plant floor for inventory controll and shipping. Wrote some software to go between handheld barcode scanners and spreadsheet software.
I also did quality control and CAD work later on, as well as help operate some automated presses.
That's definately real world experience, and I count it as such on my resume. So far, all of my employers since that first job have also not had a problem counting it as real world experience.
And yes, having your boss write letters of recommendation really do help back up your claims for your experience. You HAVE to have good references if you start out at an early age like some of us have.
..But I quit my job. Oh, how I regret it now.
;-)
t henbutI'mnot,becausethatisagainstthesysadminethics ,butifyoudid,theywouldnoticethefineworkyoudoandper hapstreasureyoufortheworkyouactuallydo.
Do your worst, mate. What ever you do, do not give up.
I too worked as a unix systems administrator. I got the job at 25, and worked there for about 6 months before I finally gave up. The others (graphical and development depts) were about my age, but the administration/sales/boss/etc at 40+ didn't know what the heck I was doing.
The problem with us sysadmins, is that we sit down on our arses all day, and nobody notices our work, even though we may work 18 hours+. My tips for you (read: What would I do differently if I didn't quit:)
o Let people know what you do. Don't sit down like a modest nerd, stand up and tell everyone what you've done and how you did it. Not like a bragging bitch, but just let them know during a business meeting, resume or something.
o Improve routines, make a difference. Make their day easier by replacing that lame NT4.0 server with a BSD server, for instance
o Act busy. Even though you may be busy working, it may still appear as if you're on IRC. Have lots of papers in front of you. Tech manuals, books, whatever you find.
o Socialize with the rest. Don't be a brown-nose, but be a pal. I know 40-year-olds may be a pain in the arse when you're 20, but if you want to keep your job you just have to make friends with them, and let them take interest in your work. If you remain anonymously, they may want to get rid of you.
o Iwouldmentionthatyoucouldallowthingstocrashnowand
Well.. that's just my thoughts.
-5|{
Turning 20 with 5 years of work experience in the IT industry. I know in the US we have child labor laws and you aint gonna work until you are 16. We also have laws which state you must attend school until you are 18, so squeezing in a fuilltime job is pretty hard. In addition, missing out on those fabulous teen years can have a severe adverse affect on ones ability to interact with others.
That being said.
I for one am all for a company hiring and firing anyone they want. All these anti discrimination laws do nothign but impede the more capable people from employment or advancement. A job should be based purely on ability, not color or race or age. Any company which hires on anything other than qualifications will not last long anyway. But when it comes down to two people who are equally qualified, the manager should have the right to hire the person whom he/she feels has the personality to fit into the work environment.
If this kid was truly as good as he says, he would ahve made hjimslef invaluable to the company and his dismissal would severely hinder the operations of the company and even if the IT manager hated him, the manager would be loathe to fire him because the decreased productivity would reflect poorly on the manager. Shit rolls down hill, but anymanager which lets the shit splatter when it hits the bottom will surely have career troubles.
My intuition tells me this kid has a lot of growing up to do and probably has created a problem within the work environment by acting improperly. Technical qualifications are half the employment story. Work ethic, the ability to work with others, the ability to know when to shut your mouth and respect to your superiors are all important aspects of employment.
Maybe after this event, this kid will learn to play the game and realize he isn't the only whiz or guru around.
Within my organization, I've risen to a somewhat senior position, and have chosen to remain (for now) a project leader rather than to persue higher management. I am fortunate that monetary compensation in my organization is not constrained if you choose to remain in a technical position.
I'm 37 years old. I've hired a number of 19-23 year-olds who thought they knew everything. The more they "knew," the more likely it was that they would self destruct, or get fired. With a few exceptions. most people that age require a good deal of supervision, oversight, and guidance.
Information technology is a strange field. In few other fields is knowledge, youth and enthusiasm so often misaken for wisdom or brilliance.
Using existing tools to accomplish well-defined tasks with nothing at stake is not experiece.
I agree with this. Here's some logic that won't fly in the professional world : I went to college for 4 years working on a CS degree, therefore I must have 4 years experience. College is professional, therefore my experience is professional experience.
Its about 6 years old
Try 8. Most 6 year olds are just started kindergarten. (Hint so you can do this at home: figure out how old you were when you graduated from HS, and subtract 10.)
Try getting a call from an office 30 miles away saying that the exchange server isn't letting users get mail or open files on their remote directory only to find that the other admin decided to install a new antivirus package without deleting the old one. That's a real pisser.
There is some very very good advice posted here, so good in fact, that I can do little to best it. I can only add that you should do/not do what you will wish you had done/not done, Twenty years from now. Life is like this. I have been in the computer biz longer than you've existed. They will get thier way. You will probably survive, and, if you're smart, you'll learn from every bump and bruise. Someday, it will be your turn. Some nameless 19 year-old will wonder why you treat him like a kid. Good Luck. Things will get better. Eventually.
"the smaller the mind, the bigger the noise it makes"
I wouldn't worry too much about burning a bridge or two when you're young,-- if you then get a degree. It takes effort for a prospective employer to look past the most recent degree on a resume. ...completing a degree is like being reborn into the job market, with all prior work sins cleansed.
At 19, I think that your primary concern should be your long-term strategy: what would you like to be doing in 10, 20, 30+ years? What is the background of people who are older than you and presently employed in the types of jobs you want to occupy? How can you get a similar background, and position, by the time you are their age? (or sooner, or course.)
If you don't organize and follow a strategy to achieve long term goals while you're young, please try not to act surprised when your job sucks rotten eggs 20 years from now.
Also, I maintain that at your age there is nothing wrong with being fired a few times while you're figuring out what you want to do, and how to get ahead.
Having said all that, I don't recommend that you 'go down swinging'. Whether it's true, or not, I would encourage you to think of this problem as an opportunity to distinguish yourself in the eyes of your boss and your IT manager through the maturity you show in taking an appropriate level of initiative to resolve the problem.
...and, if that requires personal growth on your part, so much the better. Maturity and depth are often hard won qualities, and do not come automatically with age.
I maintain that it's good to practice thinking like this, as there *will* be more complex situations than this that you will feel a need to turn to your advantage as your career progresses.
Remember, "practice makes better".
Good luck,
--Phil
This won't sit well with people who compare ties to hangmen's nooses, but you should dress the part.
I wear fancy clothes (dress pants, shirt, collar, tie, polished leather shoes) for about thirty hours a week, and during that time people treat you with more respect. If you're dressing like a slack high school drop out, how do you expect them to treat you? But if you dress like a professional, how would they treat you then?
If you weren't worried with age and acted the part (instead of a child genius) then you'd fit in better.
(BTW, I'm in a similiar situation, but I dress the part.)
Well the point I was making is that those "good people" you mention pretty much agree that managment is a joke. They're either left,leaving, or will soon leave. So I don't think that my leaving without notice will create an unfavorable impression in their minds[1]. Besides I've seen managment fire people who've given fair notice.
As far as them not lasting long...well we have a betting pool going on there.
[1] I really don't give much of a care about leaving an unfavorable impression in the minds of the people who created this situation in the first place. They've laid off quite a bit of the staff, middle and lower. Some deserved it, some didn't. Morale is very low, and the state of the economy doesn't help that rock and hard place feeling go away.
Like they believed you were hacking, which you were not. Either a coworker started a rumor on you, or someone was hacking and they didn't know who so they blamed it on you.
You can try a lawsuit, maybe against the company and your ex-boss. I used to work for lawyers, but in our state they can fire you for any reason or no reason at all. If they believe you were hacking, doing personal business at work, surfing the web, talking to coworkers, goofing off, or any other thing but they don't have the hard evidence they will let you go on suspition. If someone has it in for you, and starts telling management that you are doing stuff you shouldn't be doing, the management will most likely believe the rumors over the facts or lack thereof.
It happened to me, my friend. Coworkers older than me that had less talent than me, decided to become tattletales and make up stories about me to management. It was a political move to get rid of me. Nothing I could do about it. They have the best lawyers in town, being a large law firm. So even if I did sue, the legal fees would be hefty. False witnesses, you'd think that they would at least have a conscience that bothered them about becoming false witnesses and making stuff up. But it seems that the bad ones get to keep their jobs and keep getting promoted. bad ones come in all ages, not just over 40, trust me on that.
Maybe I'm cynical about the whole IT thing, but my 3 years of professional experience tells me that if your boss' boss wants you out, it's better to work your hardest to get out before the hammer falls.
IT is what I love to do, but even in better times, this industry is filled with cutthroat bastards. You're almost 20, wife and kid on the way, and you might lose your job. Well, I hate to break it to you kid, but life is a bitch most of the time, not some of the time. Learn from this experience, whatever you do. The main lesson should be, no one in this business cares about you except you. NOT ONE PERSON. Friendships stop at the edge of a pinkslip more often than not. If you can't deal with that, you really need to find something else to do with your life, because you're going to be going through this many more times over, for a variety of reasons, not just your age.
Maybe it's because you don't know how to spell?
I am currently 20 years old, with abit over 5 years of experience in the IT feild, it started as a summer vacation job, then a system administration job, then a network managment job, then an IT Manager position. Currently, I successfuly run my own company that I started abit over a year ago, it provides consutlancy and implementation on the issues of security, information workflow, and other IT issues as well as develops web applications. It also has an ISP arm. I am it's acting CEO and Technical Manager. In my past, I have met every prick possible, from people who wouldn't deal with me because of my age, to people who automatically dismissed me as 'not enough experience', to people who didn' like my haircut very much. One thing was constant though - I always did the job. It took alot of struggling and politics, but in the end, it always came down to the job being done. Usually, that is what matters. In short, it doesen't always have something to do with your age, directly, more with the choices you are likely to make being that age. In alot of positions where you are required to be a team player with people 10 or more years over your age, some of the actions you will take, and perhaps your work style in general just wouldn't fit into the team. If you're a one man team (such as sole IT support), this might come for not playing well with managment, showing arrogance, or constantly pointing to the fact that you are the only one they got and you are very special. This is typical behaviour for people of the age, everyone knows it, just not everyone is willing to live with it. One of the reasons I went private and started my own company was in order to gain abit more control and independence, and not have my ideas dismissed based on age or haircut. It worked. The lesson here, is that regardless of age, there are alot of reasons you could 'not fit' into a workplace, at any age. From very unique dress code, to habbits, to personality traits which tend to annoy the majority of people (such as biting your fingernails constantly). The only way to work around it, at any age, is either compromise and change to fit your team and environment abit more, or to leave and look for a place where you fit better. Running my own company lets my customers meet me in person, and decide on their own if they are willing to work with me (either cause I fit into their environment, or simply because they need someone who will do the job regardless of who he is), or not to. It might be something personal your manager has against you, but it might be that you just don't fit in. Job preformance isn't always everything. Look for a new place, or go private. You get to keep your independence, and get the job done.
I just think you're full of it.. tired of the amount of people who say their system admins.. at 19 .. yet they're just 19 and high school drop out wannabe hackers..
"...cause most women in tech are inferior..."
Excuse me?!? I have to totally refute and resent this comment. Perhaps there are less women in "tech" jobs and maybe there are women who are only in the tech field to get into management.
less != inferior
Saying that most of the women IN tech jobs are inferior is total BS. That is a fine example of sexual discrimination, which happens to be on-topic right now, because the original message asks about discrimination in the IT world in general.
I am a developer, who happens to be a female. In my measly 5.5 years of professional IT experience and the 4 years before that of academic IT experience, I have seen no evidence to support your claim. The women I have worked with in college and in the real world are just as competent or moreso than the other gender.
I have faced discrimination based on my gender in the IT field numerous times. I have found that I will have to work twice as hard to get as much recognition for my work, in a lot of cases because of people who think like the author of this post. The way I face and deal with discrimination is to:
~WBGG~ "And I'm so sad like a good book I can't put this Day Back a sorta fairytale with you" ~Tori Amos
At one of my most recent jobs, I had the fortune of working with my best friend. This turned out to be a very important factor in my professional development, because he did *not* want me to get fired. He might have been harsh, he might have been blunt, but he was also *right*. I fought against his complaints about my work attitude tooth and nail with every excuse I had, to the point where I got into a fight with him at work and my boss walked in. Thankfully, my boss at the time was a much better people person than my friend is, and he could lay it all out for me in a way that didn't bruise my ego so badly.
My girlfriend had also had to give this sort of speech to a friend of hers at work at one point in time. Even though she was much more delicate about it than my friend was, she made the poor girl cry at the end of it. Afterwards though, she was much better at her job because she took the advice to heart. The fact of the matter is that many or most of us at that age think that we're doing our very best, that we're working our very hardest, when in fact the problem isn't that we're not working hard enough, but we're not doing it right, even though we think we are. And it's often a very hard lesson to learn, because it means that there's one thing we've always thought to be true that's not.
What was my "one thing?" I had always *known* that working with other people in a team meant that you specialize in one thing, do it well, and never stray from that specialization. Those of you that know as well as I do (now) know that this is utter crap. Teamwork is where everyone does everything they can to accomplish a common goal, and doesn't have to be told what it is they need to do to accomplish it. You don't hear "that's not my job" from team members.
The author of this article may just have such a problem. Or maybe it's a different problem altogether. But the best thing he can do is ask his boss "What's wrong with me" and "what exactly do I need to do to fix it?" The very fact that someone is complaining about it means that that someone *wants* to *fix* it. The cluetrain has arrived. Please take deliveries.
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
Finding another job is almost impossible with limited experience.
Here is an example. I have a friend of mine who is now 24 with something called aspergers syndrome. ITs basically a mild high functioning form of autism. It does not affect his intellectual skills or his ability to problem solve a computer problem but it definitely effects his social skills and his eye and hand coordination. He was fired because of his disability and not his job performance. My boss knew he couldn't look him in the eye and other co-workers would make fun of him and file complaints to get him fired. This pissed me off!
Anyway what happened was after his brief 3 month experience no one would understandably hire him. After 5 months of unemployment he had to move back in with his parents and work at a Staples for a 4th of the amount of money because he was only 22 and had no experience that a HR person or a PHB would like. Being fired from his only job scared the hell out of any interviewer.
I feel sorry for this guy getting canned for being too young but he is definitely screwed. My friend that I mentioned who now works at staples is finishing his degree and hopeful before he is 30 can re-enter IT. I would advise anyone in his or a similiar situation to do the same. I know this majorly sucks but managers and phb's are extremely picky about past job performance when picking new workers. Also I doubt this kid has more then 5 years experience. If he has more then 2 experience then maybe he can make it another job and not have to leave IT altogether.
Most people who are unjustly fired have years of experience in other jobs with lots of contacts so there asses are covered in case they want another job. You on the other hand do not.
This would make a great case to sue. After all how can you work in IT again? I would bring a tape recorder to work if your not already fired and find a good lawyer.
I hope this helps.
http://saveie6.com/
I was 19, and at that time, surprise surprise,
I had 5 years of unix admin experience, and I was a cocky little wanker. Although, there was one twat of a boss name Matt Timberlake. He hated me the day I joined, just because I happened to know how to allow https traffic through fw-1....
Evil. I love it! :)
NEVER Work For A Jerk
It is just that simple.
Life is too short, and you are far too young
to be saddled with less-than supportive
management.
I dunno what the actual details are, but it
seems clear that you are being expected to
act several years older than you are. Perhaps
your management had unreasonable expectations
about your maturity, or perhaps you have made
a few moves that would be typical of a 19-yr-old,
moves that can only be described as
"a stupid faux pas".
You are not going to grow up fast enough to
please them, so go somewhere else, where
more reasonable expectations exist.
legal basis for a claim of "age discrimination"
unless you are much, much older, or have been
somehow subjected to "reverse discrimination".
is like being in the Special Olympics
even if you happen to do well, you are still retarded.
Science is the art of infallibility, perpetrated upon non-scientists
In 5 days of looking I got 2 job offers. I took the one that was most interesting and am very happy.
;)
But then, I am 35 and have 20 years of programming and computer experience.
I owned my own computer when I was 15, in 1980. That makes me one of the first people in the United States to own a personal computer. When did you get your first computer?
If things are as dire as you describe, you are already set for a fall. The only question is when. There are very few reprieves in this industry, for a lot of reasons. Don't waste your time and energy fighting to stay or fighting back - spend some time searching for a new job or, better yet if circumstances permit, getting into a good university program. A few things you can take with you from your experiences and the discussion:
1) In the IT industry Perception (of you) has a value of 80%, and your Skills have a value of 20%. Don't forget that. Thus a degree is good. I'm an American in Europe working as a contractor and here they still ask for photos(!) with your resume. Crazy to my mind, but that's how it is. America is not much different, just not as blatant. Hell, I was even told 2 weeks ago that since I am ONLY 34 I was asking for too much money!
2) Don't say you've worked 5 years in IT until your 22-23. No one wants to hear about a 15 year old working full-time. Great for you if you do and have but it doesn't sound right and that's all there is to it. Sounds like kids in darkrooms tying knots on Persian rugs and going blind. Plain sad. I'm making no judgement on it, just stating a fact. Say you've worked 2 years and then blow them away with your skills which for a 20 year old will be big.
3) You aren't working for people who understand your skills. Your immediate boss will, but no one above him. Very few managers or directors remember anything technical, and they fear those below them who are still technical. You are a magnification of that fear. If the evil eye is on you, you really can't do much about it. Try and befriend the manager if you really want to stay, but otherwise prepare your parachute and use it.
Age discrimination? I hope this is the worst thing that ever happens to you in your IT career, but it won't be, I'm sure. So good luck and don't let it get to you and enjoy yourself most of the time!
True.
But to look like a professional, your writing
should be above Grade School level.
Your -- your're
Their -- they're
Too -- to -- two
All these are basic errors, when folk who program,
or set-up systems HAVE to use Correct Syntax on
Command Lines and in Programs.
I make many errors, but I often refer to a large
Dictionary I keep by my feet!
THIS is not the same as simple Mis-keying such as
teh, Okye, and similar.
In the same vein, using "i" when referring to
your own person is not very good english; even if
you are a humble person!
Of course, the field of IT is not renouned for
having humility!
.
(David Bowman, EVA near HUGE Monolithic Win-PC in orbit around Jupiter) "My God - its full of Malware!"
... that your IT director is "jealous" of you.
What exactly is he supposed to be jealous of?
Fortunately, with five years of professional experience you probably have some savings to fall back on ... ;)
On the subject of (sic)Descirmination...
You don't think that your standard of Spelling MIGHT be to blame?
I mean, we see in movies on American children how valued is the
competition called a 'Spelling Bee'.
I read your whole post and it even seemed that you Misspelled
every religion you named!
I mean, I may despise the 'so-called-religion' of Scientology,
but at least I can spell the name!
.
(David Bowman, EVA near HUGE Monolithic Win-PC in orbit around Jupiter) "My God - its full of Malware!"
First you must look into what your state laws are, and what rights you have. I have moved back to Florida from New York, and the laws are much different. Here in Florida you basically have no rights whatsoever. You can be terminated for any reason, without cause, and your just s**t outta luck. Friend of mine went thru a similiar situation, and contacted an attorney. You may want to do the same. In Florida you have a better chance of winning the LOTTO, then proving age discrim.
peaCe
Awesome!
Languages change. The fact that the confusion between "you're" and "your" is so common may be an indication that the distinction is becoming irrelevant in English.
If you understand what is being communicated, why bother wasting time trying to point out to the person that they made a mistake that doesn't really matter, since you know what they were trying to say? In the case provided, is there any real chance of miscommunication?
There are two main points I'd like to make :
:)
1 - 'your' : Cliff might face getting fired for
not knowing basic grammar
2 - If you're 20 years old I can guarantee that
you are not in a position to climb the
corporate ladder on someone else's say-so.
You have too many personality changes ahead
of you, and the fact that you're married and
with a new child just further proves that
you're going to be changing.
That said, it sounds like you have a horrible
attitude. Perhaps if you laid back a bit on
the ego trip you wouldn't leave such a
negative impression.
Technical skills mean nothing if you can't
function within a given environment and from
the sounds of it you have more of an ego-based
"i'm good enough, dammit" instead of a more
sensible "i want to be productive" attitude.
Learn to adjust your attitude so that your
work gets recognized and your attitude doesn't
and you shouldn't have to face this kind of
stress in the future.
All these are basic errors, when folk who program,
or set-up systems HAVE to use Correct Syntax on
Command Lines and in Programs.
Your compiler should catch errors comparable to the your/you're mistake.
The reason why English (and all natural languages) are so much more flexible and usable than computer languages is precisely because they allow communication even in the presence of noisy data.
If you understand what was being communicated, what is the point of correcting the message? The only reason I can see is to enforce an arbitrary hierarchy where you are trying to establish yourself as a superior person to the one who made the mistake, based on nothing other than the fact that you learned the rules of grammar from your grade-school teacher and they apparently didn't, or forgot, or made a typo. Correcting the mistake, when miscommunication because of the mistake is not an issue, is a waste of time. The message has been communicated successfully. Move on!
who'll suck your dick for a promotion then? cyborg_monkey?
... Buddhism's gone out of fashion and won't be back for a while. Wicca's going out the door as well. I wonder what `religion' all the fashionable poseurs are going to take up next. Of course they will continue to rail against Christians, because Christianity hasn't entered pop culture yet. Boo fucking hoo.
Your position sounds deeply troubling to me. Knowing the intricacies of the network in the office where you work shouldn't be grounds for either security or raises.
If you wanted to demonstrate maturity then you would look at getting yourself *out* of the position where your value to the place you work is based on your knowledge of the intricacies of their networks.
What does this mean? It means writing documents, drawing schematics etc. So that they can hire in an experienced network admin and, using your guides to the peculiarities of their setup, someone else who is skilled in the art can then manage the network as well as you can.
You can then use a suitably redacted version of this documentation as an exhibit to go with your resume - a future potential employer will see this as a much more valuable skill than being a network jockey in a particular environment.
You also need to be careful about using offers from other companies to get leverage on your current employer, because:
a) they won't be happy about it - they are only coughing up because you have ransom value
b) you'll find it harder to get potential employers to take you seriously if you've got a track record of turning offers down. They'll assume you're using them as a bargaining chip again, and won't play.
Dunstan
The last scintilla of doubt just rode out of town
1. Ignore
2. Confront
3. Avoid (by leaving)
If there is hope, it lies in the trolls.
I'm 20 and have been working in an IS department for four years now doing network admin. I feel the same way you do. Everyone I work with is 30+. And I am constantly showing up the older guys with my skills. When something goes wrong, they might spend half the day working on it without asking me (I think because they don't want me to embarass them, with me being 20) and then when they finally come for my help, the problem is solved immediatly. I am currently taking classes to get my CS degree to move myself up the corporate ladder. From what I've been told, and from my experience, getting that piece of paper is what's going to put me above all of the clowns I work with. Not to mention, that my pay is half (or less) than what the other guys get. And last year my Christmas bonus was a mere $28. Sad, but true. If you're making the dough, don't worry. No matter what your skills, and what you may have heard from some of the geeks on /. you should still go for that degree. You will be able to demand much more from your job if you have it. Even if you were the uber geek of the uber geeks, that degree would STILL improve your standing in the corporate world.
geek n performer who performs morbid or disgusting acts, as biting off the head of a live chicken
Deal with it. Find another job, preferably in a smaller company. IF you know your stuff, there are jobs. It's primarily the certified wonders who have any real trouble finding a position.
If you don't know your shit or don't fit with the rest of the people, frankly I'd fire your ass too, and not because of your age, but because your attitude is destructive.
When i started at 17 at Texas Instruments I got nothing but comments on my age. I knew more than my peers but i learned later that it was how i delivered the information to them. At 20 years old i was making 90k a year doing major EMC storage work and high level sun system maintnance. After i learned how to act more professional and deliver my proof of concepts. I thought too that everyone looked at me as some little kid who diddent know much. But once you prove yourself to them they will respect you a little more and realize your on the same level as them or higher.
Occasionally you DO get that one manager who hates the fact that there is someone younger out there who is better than them. He probably worries about his job getting taken by you. Not that your even thinking about taking his job. If he starts discriminating you just do the same back. If he's acting like a little girl, quit! Ive noticed about a 5k increase when i start a new job.
Perhaps this is exactly the experience you need, dude, to lay off the super-sysadmin attitude. Five years would mean you started at 15 years old full-time. Bull. What you have is a realistic 2-1/2 to 3 years tops. And I'll bet you are more than willing to show your superior knowledge of all things with an attitude that would have worked 2 years ago and won't cut it now in an economy where you can be replaced. Learn humility, grow up, start dealing with the world as it really is most of the time and start fitting in. Or read Martin Yates and Richard Bolles and go create a job for yourself.
Frankly if you have half the arrogance you show in the posting where you explain this I'd consider firing your ass myself. This is not entirely about ability and technical knowledge especially at larger corporations - it is about smoothly functioning TEAM-f**king-WORK, not some high-ass know-it-all who must function as a sole authority for all things.
Change your underwear and move on.
If you don't have a white skin, you'll never have one. If you're old, you'll always be old. If you're a Muslim, there's little chance you'll ever become a Jew. If you're a woman, becoming a man tends to be rather an involved process.
But if you're young, all you have to do is wait.
So while you're waiting, make the most of it, 'cos one of these days you're not going to be young any more. And when you're 40 and some kid takes your job, remember the sort of things you were complaining about 20 years ago.
No, your children are not the special ones. Nor are your pets.
... was indeed a problem, when I was 19. We've all gone through that. That's probably one of the reasons why you should be at college instead of at work at your age. It will spare you the frustrations.
I'm 32 now. When I look at 19-year olds now, I can see myself at that age. There's surely value in the ideas of 19-year olds, but I also understand why we don't take them all too seriously.
My advice is: go back to college, at least part time. Your time will come when it's time.
Christ. Why is it that every moderator these days is both
a) humor impaired
b) a fascist
?
Thank god for M2.
I went through the same thing, except one person, whom I am still grateful to this day for (and who got me started in this industry), told me about the conversations behind my back. In my case they specifically saild "He's only 19". She actually stood up for me, and I really thank her so much for doing so. Oh and needless to say the manager who was really big on trying to get me fired, ended up getting fired himself for undisclosed reasons.
Oh, not to brag, but I am 23 now, and am making more than they were at the time.
Unfortunatly age discrimination is popular in this
industry, because older people feel threatned by younger people, because younger people generally have a way of catching on faster than older people.
Well, me too. I started building logic circuits when I was 9 using neon bulbs, and then at 10 with DTL and RTL, which was all I could afford. I built my first microcomputer when I was 14 ("built" in the sense of Vector boards and wires and solder and components, not putting a motherboard into a box). At 15 I was writing lessons on PLATO for the Florida functional literacy program. At 16, I wrote a payroll program for a string of hotels. At 17 I wrote my first interpreter in assembly language.
All of this is fine and good and means I was very bright and impressed potential employers, but it would have been ludicrous to consider it the experience of a grizzled veteran. Of course, that was before the unrealistic expectations caused by the dot com fiasco.
The hard part of this or any job is not how to do the technical stuff. I wish it were; life would be a lot easier. Unless you are actually in the armed services, if you're under 22 or so, whether you believe it or not, people have been busting their humps to protect you from the social problems of work, which are the primary thing that "experience" says you can handle. By all means, use your history to impress future employers, but it's a bit early to start claiming discrimination.
Discrimination falls into two areas, that which you could legally do something about and that which you can't. But it's all an illusion; frankly, people are *always* going to be able to find some way to put down those against whom they discriminate. If it gets legal, you've already lost. ;-)
However, I'd argue that it's an important life skill to just live with it. I'm 37 and a CTO now, but I've done my time and come up through the ranks and many of my former colleagues would be astonised to know that I'm not only bi but a TV as well; if I'd told them it might have cost me promotion or caused me other problems so I just *lived* with it.
Now I'm the boss I can do what I damn well please and not get sacked... though again I make compromises for the sake of business. You won't get me wearing a skirt to the office
ben / anna (depending on the time of day)
ben_ the technologist and platform agnostic
1. Companies get dumber as they get bigger. You must work for a pretty big company. 2. Get the resume out there. Look at offers from smaller, less "sexy" companies. Take your skills into an industry that hasn't really "gotten with the program" technology-wise. You might just find a small company that "gets it" that needs your help to grow. My company, for example, builds and manages warehouses. Gee, sexy (not) - but they are also committed to intelligent IT implementation and use. I came here just over a year ago, and it was the best move I ever made. We don't have enough good people to risk alienating a talented worker. As an added bonus, unsexy industries (like, say, industrial real estate) are slightly more recession-resistant than consulting or high-tech. Good luck!
This opinion, lost in a sea of opinion(s) is mine. I see a lot of bitterness welling up in individuals, whom by default would be considered juniors in MOST IT departments...including mine. Our job is not just one of a "technical" nature, it is a political one as well. We are (on a daily basis) dealing with more personalties than any other organization, as such we are also the most visible. To be skillfull at your job requires more than technical skills...it requires diplomacy, compassion, understanding and integrity, all of these "ideals" or "concepts" are borne of maturity in an individual. It is hard enough to find these traits in 29-40 year olds, let alone the 18-25 year old set. Approaching any situation with a level of arrogance will never repeat: NEVER gain you anything. Please remember that there is almost ZERO loyalty from companies to employees and vice-versa. No one is irreplaceable, and in the climate of todays economy, there is a glut of "graduates" and "juniors" whom have been left behind by the "dot-com crash". Those whom are truly exceptional at what they do on a daily basis will always have employment...its a fact. I know this, because I had to lay off half (6 people) of my team, the decision of whom was mine...the decision of how many was not. All of these people are at the top 10% of their fields...all of them were working within several weeks of layoff. So...the bottom line is this...if you are indeed as exceptional an employee as you think you are, then seek employment elsewhere. However, as some of my colleagues so aptly pointed out, if there is some other reason for the problems find them and FIX them. If you do not...the fact remains, you are a junior (with maturity issues) competeing with seniors (whom are beyond those maturity issues) for limited employment oportunities.
I'm in the same position, 22 years old, making me the youngest in the office. It all comes down to your people skills, and how well you simply kiss butt.
I hate doing it, but it's just one of several things a young tech has to do to keep their job. The other thing that is working well for me is creating a demand for myself in the office.
That's been a big thing for me, and it's been working well for the last 7 months. It's gotten me my own private office, and a nice juicy $9000 raise. I have no fears of ever losing my job as long as I keep on the ball and keep the demand going.
HOW you create and keep demand going is purely dependant upon the environment that you work in. For me, it's creating custom programs that save people time, and a couple that have made some good cash.
As far as snotty directors go, you've got to do something that makes their lives easier, and makes if possible, makes some big bucks as well.
I also agree with many others, as a young tech, you don't have any experience. I'm a young tech, I know that I lack greatly in many areas as well. *Full time* real world experience and time is the only way to gain the soft skills. If you don't know what soft skills are, then you've really got problems.
Consider yourself fortunate to even have the opportunity to be doing what you're doing. If you're anything like me, very few of your friends have the type of job you do.
My story, a typical one:
I started at 18 setting up machines for new hires. Two years later, they fired my boss and I became a LAN Admin. A year later, I won the Employee of the Year award (out of ~600 employees at an engingeering company). Realizing that I wasn't being paid enough, I searched for greener pastures.
I moved to Boston almost a year ago and doubled my salary. I'm now 23 and VERY close to 6 figs.
The point is this: LEAVE YOUR GODDAMN JOB IF YOU'RE UNHAPPY. THERE'S SOMETHING BETTER FOR YOU OUT THERE.
Take off your effing skirt.
-WTF
You owe me a new keyboard. This one just got coffee spewed all over it. :-)
Last week I turned ten thousand days old. I feel ancient.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
The flip side of this is that if you have their respect and they are asking you to train them, you are doing pretty well. I have worked a lot around older people, similar backgrounds (370s on up), and by being a basically agreeable guy they wind up asking me for help. Before they got rid of the DP department and outsourced the mainframe stuff at the last place I worked (first job out of grad school), I was the first sysadmin who actually had a rapport with the app programmers and the operators, primarily because of my attitude. They liked me. I wasn't a dick. Knowing what I know about JCL and CICS, I also knew damned well that doing that stuff freehand was impressive. Harsh on COBOL all you want, doing it well, quickly, with mechanical speed, for 35 years is tough, and I knew that in many cases I was around my betters (and I have 8 years of UNIX). They also noticed this. Unfortunately, the rest of the UNIX group was not as agreeable; some probably belonged in a cage. They really had issues with my not taking up the banner of the anti-dino crusade. Jesus Christ, life is too short for that, I already have a hobby, and work is not the place for dick measuring contests. Or so I believe. I also like basically getting along with everybody and a little humility never killed anyone. Anyhow, like I said, the operators and app guys noticed, we got along well, not just with the UNIX folks. So, when it came time to let people go, they kept me for an extra nine months as the sole "transitional" guy for the UNIX crew, largely because of the unanimous recommendation of the mainframers. The mainframers got pretty good retirement packages, but the UNIX folks hadn't been there that long and more or less got shafted. I worked for 10 months this year because of that, and made it past HR's magic 5 year mark because of the extra nine months, and so I actually got a package (1 week for every quarter, so 21 weeks of pay). Which, considering that I have been looking for two months and have had three interviews, is looking like time well spent, just for not being a dick.
If people are edgy, try to mellow out, be pleasant, and listen to them. Defuse the situation. Keep your mouth shut and do impressive work. And yeah, if they are still pissed off, move on. I had a job like that when I was a lot younger and didn't know better working in a medical software company with bitter, cranky, highly political hospital administrators and a rotating group of undergrad contract programmers. When I left, one of the only non-terminally-assholish managers said that he had never seen anyone last as long as me. So, it can be the situation, you bet. But do all of the stupid external stuff people suggest (be harmless, efficient, in early, eat at your desk, and so on), and if you notice a difference, evaluate why.
The parent post sums up the basic problem with this thread. The young guys think they're exceptional. The older guys know better.
This is not "discrimination", it is simply the way the world is. The younger guys who are complaining will learn this with time. In the meantime, guess who's going to be clearing up the mess.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
That's putting it mildly. When I was 21 (eleven years ago), I was working around people in their late 50s. They had been at IBM/TI/Hughes/Ratheon/USAF/EDS longer that I had been alive, and this was their second career. No shit. I had to walk on eggshells around them because of my age and because most of them were mainframe and VAX people and (even worse) LISP people and the *hated* UNIX. So, I walked on eggshells. I had one more year to my BA, I needed the work, and I had only gotten the job because I still had a clearance from last year's internship. And after a year, the surliest, most polyester-clad, most disfuntional one of them sidled up to me at the coffee machine and said "We got, uh, a, uh, hrmm, uh SCO box that we have to, hrmm, take care of." Long, shifty-eyed pause. "Could you do that?" And that was how I paid for grad school. They never really *liked* me, but they had no problem with giving me what wound up being a lot of responsibility. The one who asked me to admin the SCO box later recommended me to my next job, saying that I showed a lot of "hustle", which appealed to that manager, who was also pushing 60.
Look, take a cue from the H1s -- they are largely completely fucking clueless, but they smile and show a lot of "hustle" and I am convinced that that is why a lot of them get retained against all reason and logic. It's not just the money. Be seen as a known, reliable quantity, and you *will* do well. And as you get older you will discover that credibility is marketable.
yep, the us anti-age discrimination law itself discriminates against age by not protecting people younger than 40. Gov Factsheet. Like they say, most age bias is subtle. Of course, I don't know you well enough to see if that's what's at play here.
I may sound weird, but leisure world sounds like it has some nice benefits... but I can't live there, and it's perfectly legal to keep me out. They don't want "my type" to buy a house in the neighborhood. Yeah, just because I'm young means I'll throw screaming parties every night and that this old guy doesn't. If they want a noise ordinence, then that's ok. Just don't prejudge me.
People liked me at the other places that I worked at. Plus I had over four years with the company that let me go. Other people at work, even those over 40, had serious attutide problems and behavior problems yet got to keep their jobs. They caused problems with other employees, interrupted my work and the work of others by doing things like playing MP3 songs, snapping fingers as they walked by our cubicals, adjusting our chairs to a lower setting while we were at lunch or before we came into work, and printing out modified pictures in Photoshop and leaving them on our chairs. Management for some reason ignored our complaints and then eventually came up with a "Zero Tolerance" towards complaining.
Everwhere else I worked, they liked me. Not until this current job that I lost did I get negative feedback. Mostly gross exagerations and outright lies. Before that a series of broken promises from management. Like I would get DBA certification if I signed on for six more months. I stayed on for six more months and rejected job offers from other companies, but they broke their promise and didn't give me the training. Then they gave the DBA promotion to a Technician instead who was older than me and barely knew how to write a SQL query. Figure that one out!
Is it possibble the reason the old guys want to scoff at the younger generation is that the younger generation is "blossoming" so to speak at a time of rapid and amazing technical innovation? Sure, punch cards were cool when they came out, because, hey, it was less boring than this abacus. Now kids are blossoming with computer experiences involving 3D graphics, mp3 audio, and broadband internet connections.
Personally, I'm jealous that kids who get new Macs this christmas who want to program get 512 meg of RAM and C, C++, Java to play with as well as tools for the GUI while I was stuck with Turbo Pascal and 512K.
I still have nightmares about the looping!
Who did what now?
Having started my professional programming career young (17) AND black, I know that the only way to fight discrimination is to be **better** (read CLEARLY BETTER) then your peers (the people at or near your job position/rank). Then when your superior comes at you and not your peers you can feel totally justified in losing your mind.
Read at least one book a month related to your position and constantly enter into discussions relevant to your job with your peers/boss. Totally outshine them but don't be too arrogant. If you figure 1/2 of the people at near your position don't even apply themselves at 100% you will come to realize that the odds are in your favor.
Trust me, when you do this you will feel 100% better about decisions that your boss makes about you being fair. Otherwise you will be sitting around wondering if your age was a factor in some decision your boss made about your career. He/She will know that they will look like a total fool when they try to downplay your performance. This is the easiest way to combat this problem.
If you try to go to your EEO office or something you will succeed in the short run and be fired in the long run when they compile a list of bogus things about you. All you are going to do is piss him/her off if you do that. BTW this has worked for me in the military as well as civilian life.
Nope. I'm motivated solely by learning new stuff.
I've since left the place I described earlier, and landed in a completely different environment where lying upwards isn't necessary anymore. Lying downwards will probably always be unavoidable, since telling the kids how much they screwed up again isn't really all that productive...
the current situation is not the optimal way of conducting business
You're quite right, as it happens, the place I was describing went under six months after I had left - taking the best people with me of course. ;)
Places like Microsoft, Nokia, Matshushita will always be populated with the mediocre, since the good people (good by my measures, of course) will leave when they get tired of living in a lie.
Please notice that this doesn't necessary apply to marketing people. ;)
My boss had good things to say about me, and did tell me that the decision came from above his head. My coworkers liked me, with a few exactions, but then those exceptions didn't like hardly anybody.
On the day I was let go, my boss had a look on his face like he lost his best friend or best worker. he was really depressed. The HR director had a smile on her face. I wonder which one had made the decision to get rid of me?
Like I said if I had stayed for half a year more, I would have started to collect a pension. It would have been five years.
Some things that got exagerated or lied about:
My doctor excuse notes got missing from my HR file and they held the days I missed against me despite the fact that I worked extra hours to make them up. They also claimed they didn't know about my medical conditions despite the fact that I gave them doctor notes and documented it myself. Now I ask you, how could information go missing from my file?
My wife called me when she and my son got the flu and she asked me to pick up medicine on the way home. Total time on the phone, 30 seconds, yet it got counted against me as personal use. Yet the Duffer next to my cubical was able to talk to his Golf buddies 40 minutes or more a day and get away with it Scott Free. He laughs, has the speakerphone on a high volume, and our bosses ignored it and let him get away with it.
I visited ASPtoday.com, msdn.microsoft.com, 4guysfromrolla.com and other job related web sites. Yet I get dinged for Internet use, despite my needing to visit these sites for help, and told to visit them by my immediate boss. But the old Duffer next to me visits Sports Offical web sites and prints them out and nothing gets done about it.
I never got it written on paper just why they fired me. Except for the reason that Unemployment said they gave. Not that they said they had proof that I did any of those things, just that they "believed" that I did. Apparently hard evidence and reasonable doubt does not apply to employee termination? I asked them for evidence and they could not provide it on the day I was let go. If you ask me, they made a mountain out of a mole hill.
Not all companies are like that, nor are all people over 40 like that either. I hope to find a company that at least has a soul and an idea of what fairness is that doesn't play favoritism.
You're looking for a job, good plan. You have no legal recourse, and even if you did the benefit is negligible. How may jobs have you had lately? While it's common to change jobs at lot at your age its a little troubling considering your experience. Some of the advice others have suggested in the vein of good employee performance (working solid hours, dressing well, composure, contributing to goals outside your realm of expertise) should be throughtfully considered. Confrontation is unneccessary unless your job role does change or your work environment becomes too uncomfortable. Simply speaking with the IT Director and stating you feel slightly persecuted because of your youth and asking for suggestions to help change these perceptions might be wise. Blaming won't help, but asking for advice and appearing friendly towards him (like he does to you) will let him think you aren't on to him (if the claims are true) and respect his authority and opinion (which you should anyways even if he is a blazing idiot, the boss is the boss not just because he is the boss's offspring : ) ). Look into companies that are rated as great places to work. Fortune Magazine rates 100 of these every year and as an undergrad a while back those are the companies I found the most accepting of my youth (and quite youthful appearance). Don't be stupid, you have a family and life is running in fast-forward for you but unless you are a centurion you still have a lot to learn and naivete is your greatest poison.
Forgive me, but I'm a cynic....... I know it happens but it is very odd to me that there are so many posts here from people dying to state their age, and close to six figure salary.
I'm not going to be afraid to say it, I'm glad my employer isn't in the business of hiring sixteen year olds, or paying twenty year olds 90k+. Don't get me wrong, ability is very important but as it has been stated numerous times by others, coding isn't everything. A couple of years ago during a Co-op, I worked with about six other different people approx. four years younger than me. Two of them could write better code than anyone I've met since. They also didn't fit in very well and seemed to annoy other people from managers, down to the administrative assistants. They were a bit weird but mostly just immature.
Say what you want, you can't dispute the fact that experience comes with age...... real-world experience, not, "I've been coding for 5 years" experience.
Don't take any of this to mean that I think you guys out there under 21 can't get the job done, but if I looked at things from an employer's standpoint I'd make sure you paid your dues and grew up before I gave you anywhere close to the salary you guys say you are worth. Your arrogance in post and willingness to approximate your salary shows that there is something you just don't quite get about business in general.
1> In most companies, Management and Accounting see IT as an expense instead of an income. It is true that IT can cut expenses and increase productivity but the bottom line is still "How much money are we spending?". The less they spend, the more profit they make. When they have to cut back, IT is almost always the first to go.
.NET is the latest trend. It is still in beta testing, yet IT workers are claiming to be "experts" in it. Management wants to get rid of the workers who know the old way, and hire the ".NET Experts" in place of them. Management sees that training the existing employees is a waste of money if they can hire someone at a lower salary that claims to be an expert in that area. So they make up a BS excuse to get rid of the existing employees.
2> In 1997 there was a shortage of people to fill jobs due to the Y2K issues and companies requiring more and more skills than had been needed for the job previously. A "programmer / analyst" job that only required a two year degree with 3 years of experience now needs a four year degree with 5-10 years experience, and DBA skills, and Web skills, and object oriented programming skills, etc. The requirements to do the job got done.
3> The H1B Work Visa quotas got almost tripled since 1997. Even now as there is no more shortage of IT workers, the H1B Visa workers keep on coming in. The result is too many IT workers looking for work. This gives the Firms the advantage to hire for less money, less benefits, and make up BS excuses to get rid of the high paid IT people and replace them with lower paid workers. Nothing against H1B Visa workers, but firms abuse them too.
4> Since 1997, IT workers are going on five years. If the firm allows them to keep their jobs, they have to pay a pension after five years. If they can find some BS reason to get rid of them before the five years come up, they can avoid paying them a pension.
5> Microsoft seems to keep on changing the technology that the Microsoft shops are using.
6> It really is a "Dilbert" world. The liars, cheats, and frauds get promoted while the knowledgeable workers get the boot. If you are too good at your job, they won't promote you because you can do better work as a Peon rather than a supervisor or manager.
7> Big Business backs up G.W. Bush, Gore was more for the working man. 'Nuff said on that.
8> IT is migrating towards a "Fast Food" mentality. Projects that used to take months to complete now have to take weeks or days. As a result sloppy work is done which needs more support and debugging. The workers that produce rock solid code take months, and hence get told that their productivity is down. The ones that write sloppy code get kept, while the ones that write rock solid code get the boot.
9> The economy, it tanked a bit. Management is now taking it out on the IT department to cut expenses.
10> The Sept 11th attacks got everyone spooked. So there is plenty of discrimination, not just in IT but the rest of the company. All they have to do is suspect you of doing something and you are out of there, no evidence needed. Everyone is afraid that the guy/gal in the next cubical may have Taliban ties, or is a loony, terrorist, alien, etc. It is the Salem Witch Hunt or McCarthyism all over again!
At age 14 some kids are forming their own kiddie corporations and have their own websites. They are learning to program by age 9 in the schools now.
:) When I was older I did volunteer work for the local museum of science and natural history showing people how to use a VIC-20 and 300 Baud Vicmodem to get on CompuServe and chat with other museums.
My son is 3 years old and already uses the computer. I learned when I was 12 about 20 years ago, back in the 8-bit days.
Some kids are helping teachers run computer labs on a part-time basis as part of extra-credit.
These things are possible these days. Maybe he did earn some experience since he was 14?
what really matters in the workplace is how much you brownnose and whose's rear end you have to kiss on a daily basis to keep your job. Also what part of office politics you play in, if you keep the right group happy you keep your job. Tick off the wrong group and you are so fired. It doesn't matter if you goof off, make mistakes, or are plain incompetant, as long as you get the right political favors and try to make up stuff about the other guys, then you are bound to keep your job. Those that do not play that game are let go in some companies.
Microsoft has major marketshare, isn't that proof enough that the best product/producer hardly ever wins? It is all in the marketing, the politics, and brownnosing.
It is not your bosses job to stand up for you, but to hear complaints and try to reduce them and work you to your full potential.
My former boss just couldn't say "no" to any department no matter how insane their demands for projects were. I had at least 34 projects at any one given time, as many as 100. The first two years I worked there I had 12 or fewer tasks at a time. They increased my workload and it still wasn't good enough for them. Other coworkers had my boss re-assign their projects to me, because they didn't want to do them. So I got stuck with more projects than I could handle. When I asked for help, I got told that no help was available. This lead me to get stressed out and depressed and very sick at times. My boss told me to "just snap out of it", he had no idea how depression worked. In a way I am glad to be gone now, but one of my concerns is that my coworkers now have extra projects to do, and the same thing could be happening to them. The mental and emotional abuse of the firm does create problems with the employees. If they don't fix it, more of the same will happen.
Even if they are a bunch of PHBs, tell other employers that they were nicely saints and that you learned a lot from the job and gained a lot of valuable experience. It may be a load of BS, but at least it makes you look better by not trashing them after they unfairly let you go.
That is the advice someone who was very wise had told me on another forum.
Young people are ignorant. They should not hold positions of authority. Just give it a few years; wait until you aren't so dumb.
I sit corrected. Code on. :)
Ever notice how job application forms don't have a date of birth field? Last time I checked it was illegal for employers to ask you what your age is. I might be wrong about this, but I really don't think so. Obviously I'm not a lawyer so take anything I say about legal matters with a grain of salt.
To me the best solution to your problem long term is to lie like a rug. It's none of their business how old you are. Tell them you're 23 or 24, or even older. Let them know you're married and have a child. Few 20 year olds outside a trailer park are married, let alone have children. Create and consistently present the facade of someone just a few years older and I suspect that your problems will disappear. Now obvioulsy that won't help you in your current position, but when you move to another job it sure will.
Is this dishonest? Yes, of course it is. But then lying so someone to prevent them from working to hurt you is hardly unethical. Lies that cause harm are the ones to worry about, not lies that avoid harm. How bad would you feel about lying to a Nazi about the location of a Jewish family? If someone is going to be so unethical themselves that they would seek to get rid of you out of jealousy or some other base emotion, then lying to them is the best thing you can do.
You're luckier than blacks and members of other persecuted groups. You can wholly and completely avoid the persecution altogether. The really nice thing is, if someone were to find out how old you are and use that as an excuse to fire you, you'd be able to take them to court and probably win. If they can't even ask how old you are, how are they supposed to justify firing you for finding out you're not as old as they thought you were?
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Congratulations a good start to a fine career. You asked for advice, here it is. (1) Lie about your age if nobody will check. Otherwise evade the subject. (2) Suck up to your bosses and help them out, and make them love you. (3) It's a dog-eat-dog world. Acquire a taste for canine. (4) Keep your job. Your next job will just be a different set of the same problems. (5) Be very, very patient. You're young and have a long haul in front of you. Given time, your "problem" will solve itself. In a quarter of a century your age-discrimination problem will mutate into something vastly uglier. You may wish to prepare for it now.
They might try to sue you for defamation of character or something.
That is why I never post the employer's name on public forums. I just say the company that I work for, or used to work for.
I had a friend work for your former employer. Basically they replaced him with an H1B Visa worker that could work for less money.
Never assume that the firm is your friend, because that is the time that they will screw you over like a 25 cent whore. Never trust them, as they only look out for what is best for the firm. Not what is best for the employee, employee's family, employee's health, the environment, the government, the economy, charities, etc. Imagine that the firm is an entity with no soul. Work as hard as you can, but not to the point of effecting your health, family, etc. If that starts to happen, look for another employer because you are about to get screwed.
He was in his early 30's, and his company had him doing the jobs of three or four people that got let go. He had to do programming, QA, help desk, and debugging. After getting really stressed out and turning to alchohol for relief, he got fired. He got so depressed that he did a Kurt Cobain, that is he took a shotgun at his head and somehow found a way to pull the trigger. His widow was screwed out of his 401K, Profit Sharing, and other employee benefits. This was in 1999 when it happened.
The moral of the story is to not trust the employer when they overwork you. It could effect your health and lead to your death.
My former employer worked me so hard that I almost went and killed myself as well. But I was able to seek help and got talked out of it. If they weren't a lawfirm, I'd sue them for it.
Um I hate to break it to you but no one counts the job you had in high school as "industry experience". Depending on when you graduated you've got 3 years at the most "officially". I started young (and still am to), but even if you were the CEO of GM in high school, you'll have a tough time convincing HR of that.
You've gotten a lot of "boy you don't know it all" messages on here, but maybe one from someone closer to your own age. When I started out I thought I knew everything and had to be knocked down a few notches several times. You're obviously a bit impatient, a year does not win you the service points that you seek (and they're still wondering if you'll leave after 6 months if you get the promotion). Next, HR doesn't descriminate so to speak, they put everyone in little boxes. Guess what? You don't fit in the little box (most people don't), so you've got to shine so bright that others will go to bat for you. Lasty, you speak of former employers, thats fine and well and good (and I get the feeling these are your buds), but matters not. You need to make good with the people you work with. IT is a human activity, the computers are part of the job but not all of it. (I know we all hate to hear that, but the computers work for humans, with humans and so do we). I'd bet you don't have a lot of folks up at bat for you, which means you're not doing something right. I'd suspect (as is often the case at our age) that its most likely overconfidence and you probably make dumb mistakes as a result. Find a mentor and if you don't think you need one thats part of the problem. No matter how smart you are, someone with 10-15 years of experience (no matter how stupid they are) knows more then you (you would hope). Don't get me wrong, there are more dolts then shining stars in this business, but you should be smart enough to pick a winner. Sometimes there may even be a reason that guy with 10-15 years of experience is stuck in the same job with a 19-20 year old. Perhaps you'll learn more from his mistakes. Regardless, always learn from others. Learn to build community in your workplace, to prioritize others with yourself. Follow this advice and you'll get your promotion.
Okay, probably little chance you'll read all 500 of these so anyhow.
(PS anyone need a java programmer with these fine attitude hahaha hehe..just kidding...mostly)