Mod Chips Up, Game Industry Revenues Down?

securitas writes "In his latest Game On column, the Boston Globe's Hiawatha Bray describes Xbox and PS2 game console hackers as software pirates who use mod chips and damage game industry revenue. The focus of the column seems to be on the use of mod chips as a way to circumvent game copy controls and glosses over legitimate uses, although he mentions some of them. Without offering any research or concrete numbers, Bray facetiously writes, 'But how many mod chip users are interested in making honest backups? You could probably fit them all into the trunk of a Cadillac, with space left over for a spare tire.' Are the majority of mod chip users 'pirates' or are they legitimate users with legitimate applications for the modifications that Bray hasn't considered?"

Comments

Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Space cowboy]

I think Bray has a good point. I think the vast majority of people who own 'modded' consoles have had them modded so they can hire a game from Blockbuster and pirate it. My PS2 is modded, and I used it for coding on before the PS2 linux kit and SPS2 came along (haven't used the mod-chip since), but I'm definitely the exception rather than the rule (well, if my circle of friends are anything to go by, anyway).

The flipside however is that it should be the act of piracy that is illegal, not the act of modifying your own (paid-for !) hardware. When a law is enacted, it should make provision for exceptions, and as far as I know the various copyright/IP/whatever laws don't do this for mod-chips. If the exceptions aren't there, it is percieved as a 'bad' law, and people are less likely to respect a 'bad' law...

As for the manufacturers staying ahead: whatever one man can do, another can undo. Until the entire console is a single chip, the traces to the storage devices are all encrypted, and the thing is hermetically sealed with cyanide gas within, people will find a way around the restrictions. The more the challenge, the more will try.

Simon

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Trigun]

ntil the entire console is a single chip, the traces to the storage devices are all encrypted, and the thing is hermetically sealed with cyanide gas within

Don't give them any ideas.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Pxtl]

Well, there's always software mods. I know a guy with an XBox who uses it for nekkid skins for DoA2. Can't do that without a mod chip. But he also uses it for l33t w4r3z and shite.

Why can't we just get the Indrema project restarted and give all the console hackers a real platform?

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[glenkim]

I think one very legitimate use being forgotten here is import games. If I get a PS2, I will most likely get a modchip and buy the Naruto fighting game from Japan, because it's pretty likely that the game will never be released in the States. So maybe backup purposes is a little hard to defend, but imports are a little stronger.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[IWorkForMorons]

I think the vast majority of people who own 'modded' consoles have had them modded so they can hire a game from Blockbuster and pirate it.

I'll agree, but even for those who pirate there are various reasons why. I'm not saying they are good reasons, but still. A friend of mine has a son. She doesn't have a lot of money, but she gives her kids everything she can. That included the PSX and a bunch of games and such for Christmas. The only problem was that after Christmas, there's not much money left for games. So the following Christmas, I decided to do them both a favour. About 2 weeks before Christmas, I took his PSX and installed a mod chip. For Christmas, I gave him three copied games, and told him that I could get him more. This kid was so excited he was in tears. It meant that he got to play all the games he wanted. And it meant even more to his mother, who was thankful she didn't have to worry about spending $60 on one game. Instead she could use the money to buy food and clothes for the kids. And it made me feel good, because I helped out a family that didn't get a lot of nice things.

Now I will say that yes, I do know that it's illegal. I don't kid myself by thinking "well, it's for a good cause, so it's OK". And that it probably wasn't the best morality lesson to teach the kid. But you know what...sometimes the moral thing to do isn't the best thing to do. So what....one kid who wasn't born to rich parents gets to enjoy his childhood a little more. I don't feel guilty about giving him that pleasure. Maybe that say more about society then piracy...

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[ERJ]

Although I personally have nothing against imports I have a feeling that the legality of them might be able to be called into question. I have a feeling that the DMCA could very well be used against you if you were found to be breaking export controls.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[ThrasherTT]

Until the entire console is a single chip, the traces to the storage devices are all encrypted, and the thing is hermetically sealed with cyanide gas within

News Flash: Console player Infinium Labs unveils its plans for enforcing Trusted Computing

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Chicane-UK]

Thats what I was going to say

Quite often there are a lot of legitimate uses for technologies that are often regarded as being used for nefarious purposes.

But mod chips were really designed with one thing in mind - allowing you to circumvent the in-built protection of consoles, to play copied games.

This is a much bigger problem for the console gaming industry as the majority of their money is made on software (Xbox is a good example), as they sell the hardware at a loss to encourage sales and undercut the competition.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe that say more about society then piracy...

To me, it says that the kids in your society are easily bored and cannot anjoy themselves.

You don't *need* console games to have fun.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[override11]

You are a good dood. =)

I think the main reason I would mod my x-box would be for a nekkid patch tho...

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[IWorkForMorons]

You don't *need* console games to have fun.

I'll agree with that. I'd rather see him out in the woods learning things. But where they are living, it makes me feel a lot better knowing he's at home playing video games then out on the street steal cars and getting into gang fights...

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[DotDavid]

I modded our XBOX (chip and larger hard drive) so we can store/run our games from the internal hard drive. It's just too big a risk ($50) letting my kids handle all those shiny disks.

And the added benifit of playing all our music, and displaying select photo albums... no brainer. The XBOX should have been shipped this way.

Is there room for one more in the trunk?

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Megane]

I think the vast majority of people who own 'modded' consoles have had them modded so they can hire a game from Blockbuster and pirate it.

Even if that's true, the vast majority of people who own consoles have 'unmodded' consoles. Even if every modded console owner completely stopped buying games that he might otherwise have bought, the effort required to mod a console still limits the damages. So the goodness of Bray's point is limited.

And then there are those who mod consoles solely to play imports. In that respect, Sega got it right with the Saturn (easy to mod for region switching, hard to mod for piracy), and Sony got it wrong (region protection depended on and was stronger than copy protection in the original Playstation). And then Sega blew it in the Dreamcast, with the CD-boot loophole (which they fixed only after a large number of units were already sold).

Until the entire console is a single chip, the traces to the storage devices are all encrypted, and the thing is hermetically sealed with cyanide gas within, people will find a way around the restrictions.

Don't forget the left-handed screws! (Deathworld reference)

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[enkidu87]

There is nothing illegal about importing games for yourself.

There may be copyright issues based on the rights granted to the domestic distributor. If you were a shop selling imported games, the domestic distributor may have a cause of action against you for infringement. This would be simple copyright, not a DMCA issue.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[homer_ca]

Not going to judge that one way or the other, but one alternative is to buy the older games in the bargain bin for $20. Some of them are only a year or two old, and is Madden 2004 really any better than Madden 2002?

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Anonymous Coward]

The entire DVD Region encoding thing has nothing to do with export controls, it's all about industry controls. In fact I believe when it first started there was some discussion as to whether or not the whole region thing was legal or a possible violation of various free trade acts and agreements. As I understand it the Manufacturers have agreements with the entertainment industry (not sure if they are formal legal contracts) to only sell to retailers in the correct regions, but those retailers can ship anywhere they want.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Abcd1234]

And then Sega blew it in the Dreamcast, with the CD-boot loophole (which they fixed only after a large number of units were already sold).

Actually, on a completely tangential topic, this isn't actually true. As it stands, it appears there are no DC's that are unable to play burned CD-R's. See here.

TBH, I think the ability of the Dreamcast to read CD-R's was really not such a terrible thing (and, in fact, rather brilliant, given the thriving homebrew community). The key thing to realize is that the DC drive was actually a GD-ROM drive (ie, 1 GB CD's), so the game manufacturers could have *easily* made uncopyable games by padding out the game with semi-random data to > 700 MB and checksumming random blocks in the padded out region, effectively making it impossible to burn them onto a standard CD-R.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Anonymous Coward]

I really hate the "I'm not going to to judge" comment, because it the fact that you've made it means that you've passed judgement, and don't have the balls to own up.
Besides, $20 bargain games are still more expensive than a blockbuster rental and a DVD-R

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[RyanJBlack]

I would imagine that Bray is correct as well... I'm sure the vast majority of people have played copied games using their mod chips.

That being said, the legitimate uses of a modded XBox, for example, far outweigh the piracy issue as far as I'm concerned. Linux, legal emulators (ExultX, for example, lets one play Ultima VII on an XBox, a great game that has long since outlived its compatibility with modern computer systems!), legal backups, media players (XBox Media Centre, DVD-X), and even homebrew games (Beats of Rage, and QuakeX, to name a few) are plentiful on the XBox. With a simple mod chip, you can turn a $199 (CDN, though I hear it's cheaper now) console into a multi-function entertainment unit... how's that for marketing speech?

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[MoonBuggy]

But mod chips were really designed with one thing in mind - allowing you to circumvent the in-built protection of consoles, to play copied games.

They were designed to circumvent the protection, but they are not neccesarily for use with copied games. Imports are a big thing - they're out earlier and usually cheaper, I've had Final Fantasy XI since well before Christmas but here in the UK it won't be out for a long while yet. As well as imports there is the issue that's just come along with this generation of consoles - they're basically PCs so by unlocking that capability in an Xbox and adding a 120GB drive you have a nice media server with built in TV-out, front USB ports and at $3.50 (or whatever MS is selling them at now) they're a damn good deal, much cheaper than a full PC.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Total_Wimp]

- How many people are going to use their mod chips for imports?
- How many people are going to use their mod chips for backups?
- How many people are going to use their mod chips to run Linux?
- What kind of moron would believe an object that's twice as heavy will fall at the same speed as an object half as heavy?
- Doesn't everyone know that the internet is only used for porn?
- How many people will actually use a Linux distribution instead of just "playing around" with the free disk?

As long as people ask these rhetorical questions without providing any answers then they'll be able to twist your perception however they'd like. If we required some accurate answers to go with those questions then at least we'd be able to make some informed judgements. How about if the console makers answer these qestions:

-What percentage of games in use are pirated copies?
-What percentage of pirated copies are casual use (friend-to-friend) vs. organized theft (download from internet, guy on street corner, etc.)
-What percentage of game sales are re-buys for a game that was scratched, broken, etc?
-What percentage of people have unusable games (because of scratches, etc) that they don't replace because of the high price?
-Do the console makers offer a free/nominal cost replacement service for damaged discs?
-How does the rebuy/broken-but-not-replaced number compare with the "piracy" number?

Do you think the answers to those questions would give peoples some perspective that would not be in the console-makers favor? I can't answer that question until they answer theirs.

TW

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Anonymous Coward]

The key point is that "ethical" and "legal" don't coincide here. I would argue that so long as the game company isn't losing revenue, there's no ethical reason not to copy games. However, I would consider myself saying "I wasn't going to buy it anyway." thin ice, whereas some one who can't afford it really can say that and mean it.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno. Every console I own has been modded (with the exception of my Wonderswan Color... so far) I don:t pirate games either. I mod for 2 reasons: 1, I:m addicted to building, customizing, and modding things, and 2, to play import games. A small part of my import list includes: Sakura Taisen 1-4, Shenmue II, Soul Calibur I and II (II for Xbox), Bistro Cupid, DDR Extreme, and Final Fantsy X: International. As long as consoles are not region free, I will mod.

I guess it:s safe to say that the vast majority of my console games are imports, whereas nearly all my PC games are domestic (not because
Import PC games aren:t good, but because American

Oh, and no, I don:t pirate PC games either...

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Zareste]

But mod chips were really designed with one thing in mind - allowing you to circumvent the in-built protection of consoles, to play copied games.

Since there's absolutely no evidence or support behind the above concept, all I really have to say is "no they weren't."

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[homer_ca]

I really hate the "I'm not going to to judge" comment, because it the fact that you've made it means that you've passed judgement, and don't have the balls to own up.

Then again, maybe it's because I'm not a sanctimonious prick.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Phekko]

Hmm. Would you say it was legal, then, to buy a game console from another country with a different region code in it? And if yes, what would you play with it, if not games with the same different region code than your own?

I don't know about you guys there on the wrong side of the ocean, but in here you can import other region stuff for your own use as much as you like. In fact there's a store that sells other region coded DVDs 15 minutes away from here so either that's legal, too, or they're bending the law a little. They've been around quite a while, though.

Like I said, though, you may be right about your laws. IANAL and IDAAAL (I definitely ain't an American lawyer if you must know)

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, what the kid will learn from your actions is that copying software is justifiable. So instead of stealing cars, he's "stealing" software. With the laws we're seeing coming, he'll probably go to jail 10x as long.

There are far more constructive ways to help a kid enjoy his childhood. They're also ways that don't teach a kid that a life of crime is A-OK.

You work for morons? They hired a widely admitted copyright infringer...

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[FictionPimp]

Hell, I own a PS2, xbox, and gamecube, but I dont own more then 4 games. I have a blockbuster gamepass, I rent them play them till bored, and return them. The price per month is less then a single game purchased. I find that after I beat a console game, I'm done with it. So why bother buying it.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[gibbdog]

This is a much bigger problem for the console gaming industry as the majority of their money is made on software (Xbox is a good example), as they sell the hardware at a loss to encourage sales and undercut the competition.

But if I can buy the hardware at their loss, mod it and make the device more useful, why shouldn't I? Seems to me that they didn't protect themselves enough before putting a product they lose money on. If they want to take the risk of losing money selling hardware, they'll just have to tolerate this.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Massive146]

Actually, a heavier object of the same shape has a faster terminal velocity. Terminal velocity occurs when the drag force equals the force of gravity on the object. So with more mass, the object can fall faster before hitting that equilibrium.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[rpillala]

But mod chips were really designed with one thing in mind - allowing you to circumvent the in-built protection of consoles, to play copied games.

I know others have mentioned this already but the console's protections prevent playing games from other regions, in addition to preventing playing copied games. Certainly there's a significant portion of console modders (if the posts here mean anything) who use mod chips to play out of region.

Now whether or not that's a valid use is another question, but it's at least worth mentioning that the console's protections aren't completely about stopping piracy.

Ravi

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Anonymous Coward]

Bah! I've never been in the vast majority. I have a mod-chipped XBox. I never pirated an XBox game (and don't really see any I think are worth pirating).

I mod-chipped my XBox so I could play MAME in my living room. I don't feel bad playing those games, 99% of them aren't offerred for sale anywhere anyway. A lot of them I WOULD buy if they were priced reasonably.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[LoudMusic]

I modded our XBOX (chip and larger hard drive) so we can store/run our games from the internal hard drive. It's just too big a risk ($50) letting my kids handle all those shiny disks.

And the added benifit of playing all our music, and displaying select photo albums... no brainer. The XBOX should have been shipped this way.

Is there room for one more in the trunk?

Good man! I agree with you whole heartedly. I have an unmodded XBox, but with the new ones being so cheap it's almost worth it to buy another and mod it up right, then put all my games on it. I get tired of disk read errors, lost disks, and my friends flat out walking off with my disks leaving me with nothing. Leaving the disks in the case also gives them better resale value. "Only touched it twice. Once to put it in the XBox and once to put it back in its case".

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[incom]

At least 1/3 of people I know who've modded their xbox, use it only as a media playing machine, not for pirated games.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Anonymous Coward]

>>But mod chips were really designed with one thing in mind - allowing you to circumvent the in-built protection of consoles, to play copied games.

Bullshit. They were created to give fair use back to the rightful owner of the machine - us. Are we renting the Console? NO! We purchased the console! If they sold it at a loss that's their problem NOT ours, maybe all that's happening for lack of sales is perhaps we think $49.99 or more is freaking outrageous to pay! The market decides that and right now the market is saying that's too much so we ain't buying. On top of that the first reason for mod chips that I heard was to fix problems in the consoles such as some games not working in the first place (like happend to me and others with the first run of X-Boxes that went out the door) and the machines not running CDR's so you can't play your mix cd's you've made and so on.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[DrXym]

I think Bray has a good point. I think the vast majority of people who own 'modded' consoles have had them modded so they can hire a game from Blockbuster and pirate it.

But as a percentage of users, how many modded machines are there? And if you say the majority are pirating games from Blockbuster it also requires the modders possess a DVD burner and other equipment. While I'm sure such people exist I find it hard to accept that the number is anything but background noise.

While piracy is wrong etc., clearly Sony et al are prepared to accept it rather than do something constructive such as lower the price point for games. After all, a major reason that piracy exists is because games are so ludicrously expensive in the first place. Here in Ireland, a new PS/2 game cost 60 euros which is 15 more than even most PC games.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Psx29]

I feel like ranting: I hate the stupid fucking console vampire sucking companies that think it benefits them to lock out regions in this day and age. I am locked into the Japanese/Asian territory for my PS2 because there is no way I am modding it or buying another console. There are a few US games that I would want though, but I guess you could say I am "protesting" these pigs by simply not buying (or copying for that matter) these games, which I would otherwise enjoy.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Evergreen98]

With the Xbox, there are several completely legitimate uses for a modchip: running Linux (cheap webserver), or playing media files on a TV. The major problem? End users cannot use these applications without a software modification or modchip.

Even though the applications might not be designed to increase piracy, one thing that Microsoft can and will "kick" about is the modified BIOS that modchips or exploits use. It's their intellectual property, and modifying it (like the EvoX team does) or reverse engineering it could be considered piracy. The only legal BIOS out there is Cromwell, which the Xbox-Linux team uses to load Linux. Most chips now come pre-loaded with Cromwell, which can flash the modchip with a more useful bios (think gray-market there.)

Initially, Microsoft's attach rate - the amount of games they would need to sell to become profitable on each console - was nine in-house titles per machine. I'm not sure of the exact figure today, though, with the recent price drop and all.

In any event, if you have an Xbox and don't care about Xbox Live, there are software exploits you can use to perform the same features as a modchip would have. Xbox-Scene has pretty much anything a new modded Xbox user would want.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[enkidu87]

Selling import DVDs is a violation of the exclusive right to distribute the DVD in the US by the holder of that right. That right was paid for by the distributor to the copyright holder.

These are what are known as "grey market" items. While not "illegal" in the sence that criminal charges can be brought against you, the holder of the exclusive reproduction/distribution rights for the US can bring a civil suit.

Now, they generally don't go after the small fish who are selling a few in a store, the do go after those who bring in truck loads.

It is too costly to sue everyone who sells a grey market DVD or VCD. Living in the Bay Area, I see tons of grey market stuff as well as illicit copies of copyrighted material (from VCDs to fake Louis Voutton (sp?) bags). While some is "illegal", i.e., the government can charge you with criminal conduct, much is not. Like import video games and DVDs.

It is o.k. for YOU to order these things from over seas distributors, because you are technically buying it in another country from someone who is authorized to sell it to you for PERSONAL use.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[mbrinkm]

Mass has nothing to do with the speed that an object falls. Gravity works equally on all particles within an object and all of the particles accelerate at the same speed. For terminal velocity, which occurs outside of a vacuum, the maximum velocity reached by an object is also not determined by the objects mass. Terminal velocity is determined by other factors, including the surface area and aerodynamics of the object, not the mass of the object.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[CFTM]

Yes Madden 2004 is a completely different game then Madden 2002. The physics engine is much more accurate (in 2002 you could run around the opponent if you had the hand-eye cordination but in 2004 physics engine doesn't allow you to do some of the ridiculous moves you could in prior versions), the franchise system has been updated a great deal not to mention the graphics are ten times better. Now, had you said is it better than 2003, it's only marginally better. Madden games, as a rule of thumb, only change a great deal every two years.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[aminorex]

FUD FUDFUD FUDfudFUD fud.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[lambadomy]

I disgree - I think it depends on the console. I know a lot of people who have a modded XBOX who do not use it for software piracy, they just use it as a media player for their living room. I know no one who has a modded PS2 that uses it for anything other than pirating games. I also know quite a few more people who have modded XBOXes than modded PS2s, and I think this is completely due to the fact that the modded XBOX has a more legitimate use.

Of course, I don't know what all these people are using their XBOXes to watch/listen to, so a large percentage of it could be illegal...it's just not illegal games.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Kryxan]

I completely agree that the majority of people who use mod chips do them for experiments, such as Linux on the PS2 or the Xbox; some do use them for legitimate uses, such as playing a game they legally own, but is from Japan. Why do I agree? It is because that is also what I want. I would also like to see if anyone replies and tells me that they want to pirate games. I think most people don't want to break the law, especially if they have a moral code.

Now that the Xbox is $150 I am going to go buy two, one now and one in a few months. I will start by putting Linux on one, and using it for its computer abilities, its not a good computer, part of it is the novelty factor for me. I will also use that console for domestic and foreign games. I imagine I would want to keep that console with me and with my computer at all times. Eventually I may want to replace the hard drive; let it be the game server at a LAN, so we can use it for a match of UT2004.

The second one I get will be just for games. It will be used primarily as the typical game console. I would use Xbox live, a feature a modded console would lose. I would play head-2-head against friends with this console.

I don't think that there is anything illegal with my intended uses of this console system. It may not be what was completely intended, but it is completely legal. If Microsoft gave me an alternative method to use Linux or foreign games that would not void my warranty then you could bet I would go for it.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Anonymous Coward]

I personally modded my XBox so I could install and use the excellent Xbox Media Center to view my photos and play my (legitimate) MP3 collection from my home server.

This is really an unbelievable bit of software and expands the potential of the Xbox enourmously. Microsoft would do well to consider marketing a legitimate solution such as this ( though they probably won't as they would prefer people to go out and buy Media Center PC's ! )

Just my two pen'orth...

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Anonymous Coward]

Mass has nothing to do with the speed that an object falls. Gravity works equally on all particles within an object and all of the particles accelerate at the same speed. For terminal velocity, which occurs outside of a vacuum, the maximum velocity reached by an object is also not determined by the objects mass. Terminal velocity is determined by other factors, including the surface area and aerodynamics of the object, not the mass of the object.

You are so wrong it is not even funny.

F=MA so more mass means more force to overcome resistance, so higher terminal velocity. the aerodynamics are a factor, but mass is still a factor. If you don't believe me, by 2 identical cheap hollow plastic balls, fill one with lead. thety both are the same size, shape and the outer material is the same so the have identical aerodynamic proerties, but the one filled with lead will have a significantly higher terminal velocity.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[spare.dave]

Is it legal to sell games to an ex-pat who's ps2 has a different region code?

What about me importing games from the country I used to live in and bought my PS2 in?

Or, in summary, please tell me how to continue buying games (as in giving these companies my money) without paying sony again for something i already own.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Alsee]

circumvent the in-built protection of consoles

You mean to circumvent the in-built intentional crippling of consoles.

Yes, consoles happen to be crippled to prevent infringing copies from running. They are also crippled to prevent legal copies from running. They are also crippled to prevent legal games from out-of-area from running. They are also crippled to prevent legal DVDs from out of area from running. They are also crippled to prevent legal software *I* write from ever running. They are also crippled to prevent me from perfectly legaly modifying the game I bought.

They are also crippled to prevent legal games produced by independant game production companies from running unless that independant game company pays a tax to the console manufacturer to get the game signed.

It is thoroughly established that a console manufacturer has absolytely ZERO legal right to prohibit an independant game company from writing software for that console. The PRIMARY purpose of console "security features" is NOT to prohibit people from makinf 'pirate' copies. Anyone who climes otherwise is either lying or has been missled by someone who lied, and it's simple to prove. These 'security features' started appearing TWO-DECADES ago back in the cartridge era. Do you recall any problem with kids making pirate copies of cratridges with their home chip and cartridge manufacturing facilities?

No. The primary purpose of these 'security features' is so that manufacturers can extort a tax out of software authors by making it as hard as possible to create software that will run on the console, and to impose oppressive contracts on such authors, and to control the market for games, and to prevent games from being ported to other systems. To the extent that it prevents 'home piracy' it is merely a convient side effect for them.

This is a much bigger problem for the console gaming industry... as they sell the hardware at a loss

Well that's their own dumb-ass bussiness move, and they deserve to lose money. The only way they can get away with it is by producing a crimmpled product to extort unearned rents out of anyone who wants to write software from that console.

It is one abuse - selling a crippled product - use to support another abuse - extorting fees out of independant authors - used to support a third abuse - exterminating competition in the hardware market by selling at predatory prices (below cost).

God forbid such an abusive system should be destroyed. If it did then we might look a lot like the computer market where you have anyone free to compete manufacturering hardware and you're forced to pay a few-dollars above cost for that hardware and where anyone and everyone is free to compete and write millions of games and other software for that hardware. Yes, it would be a major tradgedy if console 'security measures' were defeated on a massive scale. It would blow the hardware and software markets wide open to genuine free-market competition.

I don't own a console, but if I did the first thing I would do would be to 'chip' it to de-cripple it.

-

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[MMaestro]

While I can't answer any of the questions directly, I can give infomation for two of them, at least to an extent.

-What percentage of people have unusable games (because of scratches, etc) that they don't replace because of the high price?

For the first one, at some retailers (most notably EBGames), if you purchase a used game and find that it doesn't work you can refund it or have it exchanged for another copy/game. Course this assumes you kept the reciept and/or the store has another copy of the game (*cough*Dreamcast/PS1/N64 games*cough*). To make this even more difficult, it does not apply for new purchases so if by some freak accident the disc was to get crushed while inside the case during shipping, you're screwed.

Replace 'by some freak accident the disc was to get crushed while inside the case during shipping' with 'your PC decides to mess up the registry of your computer upon installation of game due to a bug' and well... I guess that one reason why video game piracy on the PC is so embedded.

-Do the console makers offer a free/nominal cost replacement service for damaged discs?

I don't think console makers are responsible for game disc errors unless theres a problem with the system causing it (PS2 and the Xbox both had these problems.) To answer your question, no. They don't replace/repair your damaged discs. See above.

On a further note, the same holds true for your console system. If your console was to breakdown/mess up/not read right due to a manufacturing flaw or something *cough*PS2*cough*, they STILL won't replace/repair your system without having to cough up some money.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. I'm not against game companies trying to protect their interests by putting in copy-protection technologies (although I think it's a waste of time and money since everything they tried was broken very quickly). What I'm against is the concept of separating the world into different regions. Same goes for DVDs.

I happen to be from a highly bilingual, Asian country. We enjoy movies and games from *both* US, Europe and Asia, but this stupid region-encoding concept gets into our way. We aren't going to wait for these companies to give us an "Asian" version of a game or movie. It's no surprise that virtually every DVD player and game console sold here have been modded to play discs from everywhere. Yeah, there's pirated discs, but we also have healthy sales of DVDs from all regions (they are original although I'm not sure if they are considered legit to import).

I know people who agonised over getting a US PS2 or a Japanese PS2. Why? Because the official version for our region is the Japanese version. That's rather dumb, because who speaks Japanese outside of Japan? We want access to the English games too, and not all US games get released under the Japanese region. Solution? Mod it, duh. Since the console is already modded, we might as well get pirated games by the way...

My suggestion to the game companies is: don't divide your customers into artificial regions. Release games for the whole world. You'll save money. This is the Internet age. People know of a game long before you decide to market it in a particular country, so there's no reason to "embargo" a game for release anywhere.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Benedick]

Wrong is wrong. Stealing the games is wrong. Teaching the kid to steal is worse. Teaching him that stealing is okay is just egregious.

So the kid didn't have a huge library of video games. That does not make him deprived. Sounds like he had a place to live, food to eat, and clothes to wear. That makes him a lot better off than many in this world. If he owned a PSX, he belongs to a family much wealthier than literally millions of others.

What you did was wrong. Saying you don't feel guilty is usually an indicator that you really do. Listen close to your conscience. I think it's trying to tell you something.

Best thing you could do now: Take out the chip. Buy the kid one of the stolen games. Sit him down and explain that the best way to improve his life is to study hard, work hard, and get ahead. He needs you to be an example of good, not of bad.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Anonymous Coward]

Long dead and buried, but on the off chance you read this....

The way you have used terminal velocity implies an object falling through some medium, most likely air. Take away that medium and the grand parents arguments are true.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Anonymous Coward]

it should be noted that you are allowed to import the real console from japan.

you can go and buy a japanese-version console. no one's stopping you.

i mean, that's what i did. sure, i paid a little more than you might.. but i'm not the one that sony's shaking their finger at, now am i?

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Anonymous Coward]

Take away that medium and the grand parents arguments are true.

The problem is that they were talking about terminal velocity. In a vaccuum, there is no terminal velocity (unless you count the speed at which it hits the ground).

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Anonymous Coward]

Does your conscience also tell you to obey your mommy telling you to always listen to the good policeman and the nice CEO of Holy Fucking Greedy Megacorp instead of thinking independantly. If it wasn't, maybe you'd realizing some things aren't worth spending shitloads of money on but it's nice to have alternatives because at least then there's some entertainment around besides watching hookers smoking crack on the sidewalk. Did you ever think of that, Shitdick?

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Eccles]

Selling import DVDs is a violation of the exclusive right to distribute the DVD in the US by the holder of that right.

Um no, there are no rights involved in any way. An exclusive distribution deal is a contractual matter. If I am not party to a contract, I cannot breach it.

Now, if whoever is providing them with the import DVDs is doing so in violation of their contractual agreements, they can be sued for breach of contract. But there's no magic beyond the contract.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[mausmalone]

As long as people ask these rhetorical questions without providing any answers then they'll be able to twist your perception however they'd like.

I find it really interesting that this author asks the rhetorical question about how much money the industry looses due to piracy, and then goes on to answer it by saying that they don't know, but "it's probably in the millions."

If you don't know, don't pretend that it's a lot. Just say something like "The exact figure is unknown, but the issue is being taken seriously by the video game industry." Or something like that (factual, conveys the gravity, but also draws the caveat that there's no definite answer). Also, mentioning imports once would have been nice.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[nametaken]

The million dollar question is... is it legal to provide a box with chip (w/open source bios), or not? I bounced all over Microsoft and their PR companies trying to get an answer to this, and have been blown off. I want to sell premodded XBoxes, but I don't want to end up on the wrong side of MS legal either.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[enkidu87]

The exclusive right to reproduce and distribute a copyrighted work is a legal right granted by Congress by authority of the Constitution. You are wrong if you think that anyone can sell a copyrighted work. While the agreement between the copyright holder and the distributor is a contractual agreement, all that means to the infringer who is distributing grey market items is who has the right to sue you in the US.

This would in no way be a breach of contract matte, the cause of action would be would be infringement of copyright.

Violation of copyright is not dependent on a contractual relationship between the parties. If you do not have permission to reproduce or distrubute a copyrighted work in the US, you are liable for damages or at least an injunction ordering you to stop selling it.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[enkidu87]

You can buy games from distributors who legally sell them in the market for which they are intended. It does not matter what country YOU live in so long as you do not become an unauthorized distributor. You need to have a license to sell a work which is protected by the copyright of another.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Eccles]

You are wrong if you think that anyone can sell a copyrighted work.

If a distributor provides me said work to sell, then yes I can. If the distributor is in violation of his contractual obligations, he can be sued for breach, but not me. If Arista makes an exclusive agreement with a distributor, it is then responsible for making sure its agreements with other distributors reflect this exclusiveness, otherwise Arista is in breach. But copyright violation? That would only be an issue if I'm selling pirated copies produced by someone other than the copyright holder.

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[Anonymous Coward]

So instead of stealing cars, he's "stealing" software.

Scenario A. Kid steals a car. The kid drives wildly from lack of experience, putting his life in danger, the lives of everyone else on the road, and the police if they are chasing him. Plus, the person he stole the car from no longer has a car.

Scenario B. Kid rents a game and copies it because he can't afford to pay full price. Kid stays at home playing that game.

Which scenario would you rather see?

Re:Methinks the modder doth protest overmuch

[PurplePhase]

Sorry, didn't read the other replies to you, but I wanted to say I think you've got it slightly mixed up:

You did the moral thing, not the legal thing.

8-PP

Missed Opportunity

[Matey-O]

For the longest time I wanted a display device in the livingroom. Something that would play DVD/video/mp3s/internet streaming content. The Xbox seemd like the IDEAL solution based on the horsepower, ethernet and digital multichannel audio out. I'd heard rumors that it was CAPABILE of sending a progressive scan DVD video signal with just a software upgrade and it sounded even better.

Then a whole lotta nothing happened. I'd have been willing to spend another $50-$75 to microsoft/whoever for the capability. The modchip seems like the quickest way to get an unencumbered display device next to your TV in the family room, but at the expense of a lot of futzing around with the hardware.

Unfortunately, they missed their target opportunity as 99% of the world out there isn't gonna hack their Xbox to do this, and the only announcement I've seen from Microsoft is a software package that'll ONLY talk to a media center version of Windows XP. (here, you can do this, but first you have to buy this $2000 computer)

Meanwhile, I realized that internet radio sucks, and my iPod with iTunes fm modulator plus the dish network PVR provides everything I truely needed above and beyond the Xbox's DVD player.

Re:Missed Opportunity

[jefe7777]

>> 99% of the world out there isn't gonna hack their Xbox

exactly. and that's why every single one of these articles is bunk. I'm getting tired of companies/industries continuous stream of "we know why we aren't filthy rich!!!! It's the pirates!"

It couldn't be that 1st world cultures are so inundated with such a variety of things to do, from theaters, dvd, cd, games via console, games via pc, games via handhelds, cell phones, satellite tv, cable tv, broadband/web surfing, monster truck events, rock concerts, bowling, sports, excercise, learning to play a musical instrument, studying, working, spending time with the family...yada yada yada.

the shit is endless.

just like most people thing Microsoft has a great reputation, most people don't warez, most people don't hack their anything.

the miniscule minority that do...well they were not going to spend the money in the first place.

this constant barrage of "it's your fault(general consumer) we're not making crap loads of money", is just creating ill will.

there's gonna be fewer and fewer homeruns in the entertainment industry....just a fact of our current culture.

Re:Missed Opportunity

[Xzzy]

Damn straight, this was the only reason I was looking into modchips for my xbox.. enable 480p or better for DVD playback. Word is they disabled it in software just prior to release due to macrovision problems (ie, higher display modes didn't have it).

Which quite frankly, pisses me off. I have a quite-capable media center sitting in my house, and I can't bloody use it unless I'm content with 480i (guess what, I'm not). Were I to try and remedy this, I'd have to add $100 to the price I paid for the xbox, and risk getting banned off Live because of it (let alone frying the xbox with a soldering iron and my clumsy fingers). Yes I am aware there's mods that have an off toggle, but there's a principle involved here. I shouldn't have to hide from the "authorities" to use things I own the way I want to use them.

Since I doubt microsoft is gonna say "oops sorry" and re-enable highres playback, modchips have a valid reason to exist. Feeding consumers crippleware is never justifiable, and modchips should be allowed so those that wish to can remedy the problem.

Re:Missed Opportunity

[GrassMunk]

I totally agree with the parent. Had i been able to buy Xbox Media Center id be all over it but since i cant guess what, im gonna mod the xbox so i can get the features I want. Yes i know i can use a PC for the same functionality but in all honesty i have a perfectly good pc sitting in my home theatre as it is. My XBOX. Its so good infact im thinking of buying another one used just so i can mod that one and install Xbox Media Center/Player. Microsoft really missed the ball with the xbox. It could have had the killer apps like media player and dvd player built in. But instead i gotta buy an adapter for 50 bucks to "enable" dvd playback. What a croc.

I dont pirate games. My net connection isnt fast enough and my Xbox HD isnt big enough. But heres my question: If i buy the PS2 version of GTA3 and GTA:VC do i have to go out and buy them again for the xbox? Or does 'making a personal backup of a friends' constitute stealing, even though ive already paid RockStar for the game?

Re:Missed Opportunity

[cgenman]

I'd like to point out here that it isn't the gaming industry saying this. It is the tech reporter for the Boston Globe. Most of the game developers that I know realize that only a very small percentage of consoles that are chipped, and even then those that are probably wouldn't have bought your game anyway. I've seen rough estimates that piracy in computer games hovers around %10, and that sounds about right. When you're trying to pull your title from 30,000 sales to 1,000,000 sales, that %10 just doesn't seem worth devoting too many resources to. And that percentage is a lot smaller on consoles. A lot smaller.

Sony and Microsoft do go after chippers as a matter of routine, and they always give some plausable reason for it. But they too know that we're in the buildup phase to another generation of consoles, and they too expect sales to have started sloping off by now. Unlike certain other industries, very few of Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo's press releases are related to the subject of piracy... in fact I can't think of one offhand since they shut down Lik Sang :(.

This is just an attempt by a newspaper tech reporter to sensationalize a currently very minor problem to the game development industry by tying it to another industry's hype. At the GDC there was only one track related to piracy, and it was entirely sponsored by a copyprotection company. Generally speaking, we have more important things to do.

And finally, Microsoft really did drop the ball with the XBox. They could promised to deliver the mythical of the set-top box, and they almost succeeded. For the first time, the technology was there, the hardware was there, and the public was ready, but the terrible software just killed it. The fact that you have to chip it to unleash abilities completely unrelated to piracy and regional lockout should be a clue as to where they went wrong.

Re:Missed Opportunity

[normal_guy]

The Xbox was designed from the start to play games and DVDs, not take market share away from their PC demographic. Much like Nintendo missed the boat with Gameboy SP because it didn't have phone/dvd/mp3/wireless. Mod parent offtopic.

Re:Missed Opportunity

[shepd]

>Unfortunately, they missed their target opportunity as 99% of the world out there isn't gonna hack their Xbox to do this

How true. I sell modchips, and I'm lucky to get 7 customers for them in a week. Most weeks I'll get 1 or 2. I'm the only other shop in this city offering modchips.

I do advertise, but probably not as much as I should.

Summing up: If business continues at this rate, I'd be lucky to mod more than 1% of the city's consoles. REALLY lucky. I believe I'm up to 100 or so right now over the past 8 months. This city has 300,000 people...

Now, as far as what people use the chips for -- I only advertise modchips for backup and custom code usage. I don't ask what they'll be used for -- it's not my business to know. I'd probably be willing to say, though, about 25% of the people buying have kids that play rough with the games, and they wouldn't be getting the modchips if the replacement costs for popular games weren't over $80. The rest aren't talkative. I have turned away stupid customers who insist on telling me how they'll be buying a modchip to pirate Blockbuster games.

Note to game companies: If you want to win back at least 25% of that 1%, just put a card in the manual that explains how the owner can send the shards of broken disc back to your company along with $5 for a replacement disc. Installed mods cost $100+, and if you priced your replacements reasonably, you'd probably manage to drive companies like mine out of business. Think about it.

Re:Missed Opportunity

[drinkypoo]

I figure microsoft just wasn't ready to provide a media device because they want to implement DRM. Also the Xbox isn't a complete video solution because it doesn't have video inputs. I have read somewhere that the Xbox can do video input on its video outputs but I've only seen that assertion once, and anyway that would make it useless, you'd need two of them, so regardless it won't work as a PVR, only as a front end to one.

The fact that you have to chip it to unleash those abilities just shows that there's no market (yet) in selling those abilities for the Xbox, or you would be able to get them commercially.

Re:Missed Opportunity

[cgenman]

The fact that you have to chip it to unleash those abilities just shows that there's no market (yet) in selling those abilities for the Xbox, or you would be able to get them commercially.

You can get them commercially. Where do you think mod chips come from, churches?

Re:Missed Opportunity

[LilMikey]

I've heard nothing about video in on the outputs, which sounds rather far fetched TBH, but I do believe the Linux fellas nearly have USB video capture devices working.

Re:Missed Opportunity

[drinkypoo]

I'm talking about the features, not the mod chip. You can mod all but a v1.5 Xbox without a chip, and the functionality we're discussing is free. A modchip is just a means for the technical noobish to get their system modded.

Re:Missed Opportunity

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd heard rumors that it was CAPABILE of sending a progressive scan DVD video signal with just a software upgrade and it sounded even better.

Even better, you can get progressive scan AND line-doubled output for HDTV using XBMC...and a modchip to allow you to run it.

Re:Missed Opportunity

[Anonymous Coward]

This may have been pointed out elsewhere, but a mod chip is no longer necessary for the xbox to backup games or run apps like xbox media center. I have modded two xboxes using only a hacked savegame for Mech Assault. The software is pretty readily available...look for "phoenix bios loader" and the "bert/ernie font exploit." I did have to crack the case, but only to install a larger hard drive.

An xbox running xbmc is about the best way to watch media on a TV. I have one on an HD front projector connected with the component out and it looks better than my progressive scan dvd player. And now I can start ripping my DVD collection and have instant playback from my server using xbmc + samba.

Re:Missed Opportunity

[Cypherus]

>> 99% of the world out there isn't gonna hack their Xbox

exactly. and that's why every single one of these articles is bunk

I can see right now that these articles that speak about people hacking their consoles is only going to make people think MORE about hacking their consoles. It's all about doing what your not supposed to that's so appealing. I personally don't own a PS2 or Xbox...I will however be getting a PS2 shortly and I WILL be hacking it with a mod chip. Why? Because it's my money. Because I want to play back up copies. Because I want to play imports. Because I can.

Re:Missed Opportunity

[Anonymous Coward]

Christ - you REALLY need to advertise more. This is also a 300k city - and I myself do at least 15 Xboxes a week - and I know there are lots of others chipping as well.

Re:Missed Opportunity

[Anonymous Coward]

People dont need others to mode them you stupid fuck. It can be done easily by a 4 year old child with minimal soldering skills. Go get a real job.

Re:Missed Opportunity

[AnyoneEB]

Of course Microsoft wouldn't do that, at least not for a relatively high price. They sell XBoxes at a loss (or at least they did at launch, I don't know if they still do) like every other console with the intention of making money on game sales. If you use your XBox as a set-top box, you're probably not buying games, and they have lost money by selling you a XBox.

Re:Missed Opportunity

[Anonymous Coward]

>People dont need others to mode them you stupid fuck. It can be done easily by a 4 year old child with minimal soldering skills. Go get a real job.

Jealous, huh?

Re:Missed Opportunity

[shepd]

>Christ - you REALLY need to advertise more.

Probably, but the modchips are mostly a sideline (although, getting more popular and may end up being my main business). Not to mention I mostly do PS2s, which take a solid 2 hours to do right (I can do them in 45 minutes like everyone else, too, if you want it to work every few boots due to shoddy wiring).

XBOXes, I love seeing those. 25 minutes and she's done (including a nice little header). :-)

little kids?

[Shakrai]

'But how many mod chip users are interested in making honest backups? You could probably fit them all into the trunk of a Cadillac, with space left over for a spare tire.

My hunch says anyone who has small kids and doesn't want them to destroy a $40-$80 CD would be a likely candidate for such a mod chip and backup copies. My hunch also says that there are more parents with little kids that have gaming consoles then "will fit in the trunk of a Cadillac".

I'll stop making backup copies of my software then the gaming industry offers to send me replacement copies of damaged CDs without charging me anything more then shipping and handling. You can't have it both ways -- I'm either paying for the software license (in which case I have the right to make a backup or archival copy and they don't have the right to include technology that stops me from doing this) or I'm paying for the CD itself. And if I'm paying for the CD itself then it ought to cost a few bucks -- not $50. Hell if I pay for the software license who says I have to use the software off the CD? Is it really illegal for me to go and download something off Kazaa that I already own? Ditto for mp3s of songs that I already own the album for.

Re:little kids?

[BoomerSooner]

It's not copyright violation for you to download the mp3's to cd's you own. It is a violation by the person distributing the files though.

I've used warez sites to get old floppies I own that have died (Borland C++ 3.0 DOS is a recent example).

Re:little kids?

[anon*127.0.0.1]

And if the software company goes out of business, you're pretty much screwed if something happens to the CD. There's no way to get a replacement.

Re:little kids?

[NightSpots]

You really think there are more parents buying mod chips than teenagers and college students who just don't want to pay for games in the first place?

Really?

My guess is that the number of people who have bought mod chips solely to protect their games from little kids is ... well .... less than a dozen. Maybe two dozen, but not more than that.

Re:little kids?

[macrom]

My hunch says anyone who has small kids and doesn't want them to destroy a $40-$80 CD would be a likely candidate for such a mod chip and backup copies.

As a parent, I highly, highly doubt this. Parents with multiple children don't have time for 5 minutes of sex at night let alone sitting in front of a computer trying to make backup copies of some Spongebob Squarepants game. Most of us (our circle of friends with kids) require the younger children (9 or so and under) to ask for assistance before playing a console. The kids of all ages are simply taught how to use the console and the discs, and that not taking care of the discs will result in a game becoming unplayable. Most of us are from the school of thought that children should learn from an early age that they are responsible for their actions, and that expensive items should be treated with care and respect.

Kids have a high propensity to break ANYTHING, so making a backup copy of a $50 game is fine and dandy, but you can't make a backup copy of the $200+ console and the $50 mod chip that you bought to make backup copies so your kids didn't break the game.

Sorry for venturing off into some offtopic territory, but I just don't see that many parents modding a console and spending time doing backups of every game. There are far too many things fighting for parental time, and at the end of the day sex takes preference over burning game discs.

Re:little kids?

[_Hiro_]

But how many mod chip users are interested in making honest backups? You could probably fit them all into the trunk of a Cadillac, with space left over for a spare tire.

My hunch also says that there are more parents with little kids that have gaming consoles then "will fit in the trunk of a Cadillac".

It depends on what Cadillac. You can fit 1/2 the population of Cleveland in a 1978 Fleetwood.

Re:little kids?

[Jhon]

This is exactly what I do. I've Kids ranging in age from 10 down to 2. Little hands have damaged many a CD/DVD. While "rules" saying "no touching" work somewhate -- media still gets destroyed.

Every CD/DVD accessable to my kids is a COPY of the original media. This includes PC-CDROMs -- although most of those are imaged and stored on the LAN rather than burned on to a CD.

The only thing I've used blockbuster for is to "try" a game to decide if it's something I'm willing to let my kids play -- or check and see if they like it.

I know I'm not the only one who does this, either. Several other friends/parents also do this -- and we share advice/suggestions.

I realize there's a large pirate problem, but the answer to that isn't to eliminate or hinder fair use.

Re:little kids?

[glitch!]

My hunch says anyone who has small kids and doesn't want them to destroy a $40-$80 CD would be a likely candidate for such a mod chip and backup copies.

Your hunch is 100% correct. I know this is a fact because I am one of these people. I have a young daughter, and she is ONLY allowed to use the CD backups of our Playstation games. She tries to be careful (I think), but sure enough they get damaged or lost. Fortunately, it is pretty easy to burn a fresh copy from the master CD.

For those people who think everyone with a modchip is a pirate, "GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS." For each and every one of my CD backups, I have the original CD on a shelf in my computer room. I bought EACH AND EVERY ONE of them. So if you want to use a broad paintbrush, either mention that there are legitimate users or (better yet) just shut the hell up.

'But how many mod chip users are interested in making honest backups? You could probably fit them all into the trunk of a Cadillac, ...

Well that's nice. Let's compare modchips to organized crime, complete with the bloody body in the trunk reference. Why not just go all the way and draw the comparison with Nazis and death camps? Sickening...

BTW, I agree with everything in the parent post. Well said.

Re:little kids?

[Anonymous Coward]

And if the software company goes out of business

Which seems to happen a lot in the game business. I wonder why?

Re:little kids?

[Lord Kano]

My girlfriend has 3 children, they are disc reapers. Games come into this house to die. It's amazine how badly a child can treat a game disc.

They're so bad, that they are simply not allowed to touch any of my disks.

I haven't taken the time to learn about copying PS2 or XBox games, but I really should. The stack of games in their rooms that look like they've been run over by a truck are a testament to that.

LK

Re:little kids?

[Mysticalfruit]

I think Sony totally missed the mark when it came to the HDD for the PS2. If I had my way about it, when you bought the HDD it would come with a piece of software that would allow you to backup your games to the HDD.

To prevent rampant mirroring of the disk they could use a couple of different strategies.

1. Cipher the disk image keyed off the unit's UID. Yeah, this would impose a performance penalty but it could be buried in the Disk I/O stack.
2. Along with Ciphering after N number of plays, you'd be prompted to insert the original disk. Then have the software first look to make sure this is really a PS2 disk (read the out of bounds areas, etc) and then have it compare the disk structure and md5 sums of files on the disk against ones on the harddrive.

Using those techniques above, it would solve the following problems.
a) Mirroring of the disk
b) Renting a disk, storing the game and then returning it.
c) Renting a disk, storing the game, then copying the game (to use for verification) and returning it.

Also, you could randomize how it does the checks for verification to defeat disk switching tricks, etc.

I don't have a mod chip in my PS2 so I'm just very careful with the discs I own. However, all the people I know who do have mod chips only use them to play copied games.

Re:little kids?

[Valar]

You can't have it both ways -- I'm either paying for the software license (in which case I have the right to make a backup or archival copy and they don't have the right to include technology that stops me from doing this) or I'm paying for the CD itself. And if I'm paying for the CD itself then it ought to cost a few bucks -- not $50.
Actually you can. What if what they are sellling you is a package deal-- one cd with the license to use the CD. You can't buy the CD outside of the package, and you can't buy the software outside of the package. Fair use laws would probably allow backups even in this case, however, they would be in no obligation to sell you another CD without the license (because you already own the license, from your scratched copy). So you are partially right, you are legally allowed to make a backup. However, legally, they are under no obligation to make it easy. Standard disclaimers apply-- IANAL

Re:little kids?

[Anonymous Coward]

Great, so instead of teaching your kids responsibility for their actions and how to care for their belongings, you teach them that anything they break will be magically replaced by mommy and daddy.

Re:little kids?

[xMac]

>My hunch says anyone who has small kids and doesn't want them to destroy a $40-$80 CD would be a likely candidate for such a mod chip and backup copies. then the kid should learn not to abuse the CD or they won't be able to play the game any more.

Re:little kids?

[Anonymous Coward]

> However, legally, they are under no obligation to make it easy.

Does making it difficult include having the media branding you a thief, and getting congress passing laws preventing you from making that backup?

Re:little kids?

[normal_guy]

Justification. You're paying for the CD, everything that went into its creation, and a license to its content. Why should game manufacturers be held to some kind of unrealistic standard because you can't take care of the shit you buy?

Re:little kids?

[Anonymous Coward]

And then you have a console which, with one simple nop in the right place, never needs to check, and probably even can have games downloaded straight onto it, never even needing a disc, because it already has image functionality.

Hello, modchip city.

Re:little kids?

[Jhon]

I'm guessing you have no kids. Further, I'm guessing you've never heard the problems when you ASS-U-ME something.

Trust me, a damaged/destroyed item nets the child an appropriate punishment.

So, try to hold your tongue before jumping to conclusions.

Re:little kids?

[Archibald Buttle]

It is entirely irrelevant if the majority of people using MOD chips are doing so to play illegally copied games, rather than backups of legally owned material, or foreign region software.

You should have the right to protect your investment i.e. play backups rather than risk damaging expensive originals. This is not the exclusive domain of people protecting their games from their children either.

Region locking is also a dubious practice and amounts to an effort to control markets. In business areas outside the entertainment industry this kind of market manipulation is often considered illegal and monopolistic.

Re:little kids?

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me guess. Your first bike didn't have training wheels, and when you lost a finger, your parents said "Tough luck. Play more careful next time."

What a sad childhood you must have had.

Re:little kids?

[drinkypoo]

Copying a CD only takes about 7 minutes of realtime. PSX games require no hacking and you can simply copy the disc, so long as you have a modchip. Just about any CD copying software makes copying a one step operation. And finally, you can buy pre-modded consoles.

Lots of families out there have a PC with a burner in it and they use it to store pictures, mail CDs of pictures to people, and to burn Audio CDs to listen to in the car and such. Copying a CD is trivial compared to any of those tasks.

BTW, sex is great, but it takes a lot longer than burning a CD and you can do both at once*

* (I don't advise getting up mid-stroke to change CDs.)

Re:little kids?

[Anonymous Coward]

My hunch says anyone who has small kids and doesn't want them to destroy a $40-$80 CD

I for one have a mod chip and it is used for exactly this reason. I duplicate every disc as soon as we buy them. This way we don't have to be anal about letting our son change games himself. If I couldn't duplicate discs I wouldn't buy them in the first place. Same goes for his PC games and DVDs.

Re:little kids?

[Anonymous Coward]

BTW, sex is great, but it takes a lot longer than burning a CD and you can do both at once*

I'm a premature ejaculator you insensitive clod!

(Other option that sounds more manly): Some of us still have 1x burners you insensitive clod!

Re:little kids?

[Shakrai]

Actually you can. What if what they are sellling you is a package deal-- one cd with the license to use the CD. You can't buy the CD outside of the package, and you can't buy the software outside of the package.

Why not sell the CD without a license the way Microsoft (god I hate to use them as an example of something good but here goes) does for it's eOpen volume licenses? When our bulk XP CD went missing it only cost me $20 to replace it. While I tend to think $20 is a high price for a CD (and it was my own damn fault for not having a backup of the CD) it's better then the $299 cost for a retail copy of XP -- or the thousands we spent on the bulk licenses in the first place.

If the gaming companies had their head out of their ass they would do this. Or better yet -- distribute the games via the Internet (bittorrent anyone -- get your customers to pay for distributing your product) and let you buy the license online. Why waste the paper (save the trees!) and packing materials?

Of course will this happen? Hell no -- it makes too much sense.

Re:little kids?

[Shakrai]

Justification. You're paying for the CD, everything that went into its creation, and a license to its content. Why should game manufacturers be held to some kind of unrealistic standard because you can't take care of the shit you buy?

So if my house burns down or gets robbed I wasn't taking care of the shit I buy and should have to repurchase every copy of every program, music album and game that I ever owned? I'll call up my Insurance Agent and see if we can schedule my copy of Half-Life and what kind of impact that will have on my homeowners premiums....

Re:little kids?

[nolife]

Most of us (our circle of friends with kids) require the younger children (9 or so and under) to ask for assistance before playing a console.

You don't have time to make a backup (a one time thing) but you have time to help them every single time they want to play a game? That's odd.

Most of us are from the school of thought that children should learn from an early age that they are responsible for their actions, and that expensive items should be treated with care and respect.

Nice textbook answer. If that honestly works for you and nothing gets broken, you are in the very very tiny percentage of people that concept really works for, or extremely lucky. I am confused though as you contradict yourself with this:

Kids have a high propensity to break ANYTHING

This next line is equally questionable and is terrible advice to give to someone:

making a backup copy of a $50 game is fine and dandy, but you can't make a backup copy of the $200+ console and the $50 mod chip that you bought to make backup copies so your kids didn't break the game.

I thought it was obvious to everyone but a DVD/CD is much more prone to breaking and being damaged then the console is. You are saying why make backups at all if the hardware could break at some point. You'd think it would make sense to backup the things you can, specially when they are easiest thing to break in the loop.

Your "circle of friends" needs to change shape.

Re:little kids?

[Matt2k]

> You don't have time to make a backup (a one time thing) but you have time to help them every single time they want to play a game? That's odd. If I was going to even start trying to make backups, I'd need to spend a few hours researching MOD chips, a few hours learning how to make backups, and the time spent working to pay for all these bills. When it's all done, I've spent a couple days of my life making backups for a game that will probably never be broken. (Most scratches can be polished off anyway) The poster said that children under nine generally ask for assistance. That doesn't mean that they come bug daddy everytime, it sounds like there are other older children available to help.

Re:little kids?

[normal_guy]

So call your insurance agent. You don't call Sears to pony up for new siding when your house burns down.

Re:little kids?

[Shakrai]

So call your insurance agent. You don't call Sears to pony up for new siding when your house burns down.

That was sarcasm -- I'm sorry it went over your head. I think you'll find that most standard insurance policies are going to exclude software over a certain amount (probably $1,000 -- if you'd like I'll check and find out -- I work for a small insurance agency) so you would literally have to schedule (and pay extra for) every single piece of software that you own. This doesn't even count albums and what not. That's if your insurance company even offers this coverage as an option.

Re:little kids?

[WNight]

It's pretty obvious, and it's pretty obviously not piracy.

When six studios all release a similar game (say another RTS) the market for this type of game is going to be saturated. Gamers are smart enough to realize that fantasy monsters and giant robots are just skins, it's the gameplay and mechanics. If there are all roughly equal they're going to sell based on marketing. EA and similar companies can afford the big displays, the end-of-aisle positioning, etc. Smaller companies games are going to be buried and if they don't offer anything else that RTS buyer has a fairly low chance of getting to that game before finding one that suits their needs.

With online games (be it Everquest or UT2004) it's even worse. People buy games specifically because they're popular. You don't want to buy a MMORPG only to discover that in a ICQ/MSN type situation all of your friends use the other program. For shooters and such their value to a gamer is largely based on the number of people playing on public servers when they get home. UT2004 is great for this. On the other hand, Death Robots 9000 may be a great game but you and six people, including the three creators, are the only people who will be playing it online.

Pirates, the ones I've seen anyways, have ten times more pirated games than anyone would ever buy. I've seen pirates with 350+ games, I've only known a few people who have ever bought even 50. Most of these games don't even represent a lost profit to the company because the pirate wouldn't have bought them anyways. Further, most pirates eventually grow up and get a job and $50 is no longer a month of lawn mowing, it's a few hours of after-tax income, and the same ammount as going to the bar or on a date. Compare that with time on usenet downloading and burning and most people eventually decide to start paying for software. Essentially, piracy is mostly done by kids who couldn't (reasonably) buy the game anyways and they usually give it up later on. Also, They usually pirate a ton of games which drives up statistics but doesn't actually have an impact on anyone's balance sheet.

So, you have fairly minimal losses from piracy, despite scary statistics, and you have huge market overcrowding and feedback loops that favour already popular games. Seems to be fairly obvious that it's market forces driving gaming companies out of business. Piracy doesn't help, but it doesn't hurt much either.

Re:little kids?

[runderwo]

You can't have it both ways -- I'm either paying for the software license (in which case I have the right to make a backup or archival copy and they don't have the right to include technology that stops me from doing this) or I'm paying for the CD itself.

Yes, they want to have their cake and eat it too. Unfortunately, they are getting away with it.

And if I'm paying for the CD itself then it ought to cost a few bucks -- not $50.

That's not your decision to make. They charge the price that maximizes profit. If you consider it to be unreasonable, don't buy it. Note that asking a high price does not give others the right to make illegal copies.

Hell if I pay for the software license who says I have to use the software off the CD?

Where else are you going to obtain it? Anyone else who distributes it to you is violating copyright law. If you download something willfully knowing that you are breaking the law in doing so, you can also be guilty of conspiracy or contributory infringement.

Is it really illegal for me to go and download something off Kazaa that I already own?

Yes. Whoever sent it to you, if they are not the copyright holder and do not have permission to do so, is breaking the law. If you know they are breaking the law and download it anyway, you can be implicated.

Ditto for mp3s of songs that I already own the album for.

Ditto, indeed.

You have the right to make one non-transferable backup copy of a recorded medium under copyright law. That backup copy cannot be distributed to others, and it must be destroyed when the original copy is destroyed or its ownership is transfered. All other copying and redistribution rights are reserved by the copyright holder. This should not be a difficult notion to understand. If you disagree with the terms under which most copyrighted material is distributed, you may feel morally justified in breaking the rules, but it doesn't change the fact that doing so is against the law and opens you up to action from the copyright holder. Anything else is just wishful thinking.

Re:little kids?

[Anonymous Coward]

December 2003 I did more than 40 Xboxes (about half with a 120Gb HD) for parents who gave them to their kids as xmas presents.

That's one person, in one little city.

Re:little kids?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Plus I've ran the DDR part of the Akon game console room in 2001. I can tell you that after accidentally losing my modded PSOne and all of my backup discs, I was quite happy with the fact that I didn't bring a single original CD.

Re:little kids?

[Alsee]

Yep, it's a lot faster and easier to earn another $50 and to make a run to the store to buy a new copy than to let the computer burn a copy in 5 or 10 minutes while you do something else.

I don't think so. You can do that as insurance for a dozen disks and still end up better off than if you had to run out and buy a replacement for just one of them.

-

Re:little kids?

[Shakrai]

You have the right to make one non-transferable backup copy of a recorded medium under copyright law. That backup copy cannot be distributed to others, and it must be destroyed when the original copy is destroyed or its ownership is transfered. All other copying and redistribution rights are reserved by the copyright holder. This should not be a difficult notion to understand.

And you just proved my point. If I have the law-given right to make a backup copy then I also presumably have the right to use that copy. If they won't let me use it out of the box (DeCSS) then I'll have to break things (encryption or mod chips) to use it. And I'm not breaking any laws by doing so.

If these companies were truly smart they wouldn't put this type of copy protection in place. All it does is make it harder for us ligitimate users to get buy. It does nothing to deter or slow down the hardcore pirates.

Re:little kids?

[rhuntley12]

Thats why with an Xbox you play everything off a hard drive. Then all the kid has to do is hit the power button and select the game from a menu. Seems a lot safer and easier then having cd's, having to insert the cd, loosing cd's, leaving them around to get stepped on, etc doesnt it?

Re:little kids?

[Anonymous Coward]

So you have time to spend a half an hour on Slashdot a few times a week, but not enough time to make a backup which takes 10 minutes, can be started and left to run itself, and could keep you from losing a $50-80 investment? You could even pop in the CD, start the backup, and while that is going on do your Slashdot reading/posting. It would probably reduce the length of time you spend on Slashdot.

It seems like here you would rather complain (brag?) about how time-consuming kids are and indicate how you don't have enough time for any little thing at all, but you are here on Slashdot. How silly.

Re:little kids?

[normal_guy]

I was also being sarcastic, I wasn't implying that Farmer's Insurance would let you put GTA3 on your policy.

Re:little kids?

[runderwo]

If I have the law-given right to make a backup copy then I also presumably have the right to use that copy.

Only the original copy or the backup may be in use at any one time. Otherwise, you are correct.

If they won't let me use it out of the box (DeCSS) then I'll have to break things (encryption or mod chips) to use it. And I'm not breaking any laws by doing so.

Wishful thinking. See DMCA.

If these companies were truly smart they wouldn't put this type of copy protection in place. All it does is make it harder for us ligitimate users to get buy. It does nothing to deter or slow down the hardcore pirates.

Wrong. Requiring the DMCA to be broken to make a copy gives them grounds for criminal action in addition to the usual civil claims against copyright infringers. It's about making sure that if a copy is made, as many laws as possible are broken in the process to ensure maximum implication for the pirates.

Sure...

[jratcliffe]

Yeah, sure, most modchippers are doing it for perfectly legitimate purposes, just like most Kazaa users are sharing music files from bands that have authorized it.

Re:Sure...

[t_allardyce]

And so what if they arnt? If the law was changed and modchippers and fileshareres were 100% protected do you think suddenly no-one would bother making music or building consoles? Fact is someone would build consoles and someone would make music and it would probably be 10 times the quality of the crap corporations push out - just like Linux.

Re:Sure...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually,
I'm currently sharing music from SuperGreenX and others who have authorized it.

P2P Filesharing:

You may be able to find some of my stuff being shared on P2P clients like Kazaa (Especially my game remixes). Just search for SuperGreenX. I encourage the sharing of all my songs!

Believe it or not I don't download from Kazaa but rather share these files (which have been uploaded a few times) to help in my own small way to have legal and legitimate files on the Network.

Re:Sure...

[shark72]

...and all those DVD-XCopy users are making legitimate backups of only DVDs they own. Because, you know, scratched DVDs are such a rampant problem that spending the money on the burner, the blank media and the copying software is simply protecting one's investment.

Re:Sure...

[Izago909]

Ned Flanders? It that you? Since when do you use sarcasim? Anyway, I couldn't imagine anyone better to cast the first stone than the one person on Earth who has never done anything remotely illegal.

The day I stop making copies of rented and borrowed games is the day I see an executive take a pay cut, instead of firing underlings, to help balance lost income. Keep in mind these corporations are the same ones buying politicians and rewriting the law in their favor. I may not have the billions it takes to fight the system, but I sure as hell can avoind buying their products so they can't screw me with my own money.

Not to mention the quality of most games today is garbage. If I don't beat it in under a week odds are I'll probably be bored with it just as soon. Besides, I haven't had to copy any games since the corner rental store introduced week long rentals. I wonder when they are going to get sued, or have a corporate tool write an angry un-research paper about their contribution to the downfall of the industry.

Re:Sure...

[Izago909]

You're assuming the only use for DVDs is copying media. What about the ease of carrying aroun on DVD instead of 5 CDs? You also have musicians and artists who can archive tehir work, data backup/storage, and many other uses. I don't know a single person who bought a DVD burner with the sole intent of copying DVDs, although it works out to be a nice fringe benifit. Basically, find a distributor who will replace my damaged discs for minimal charge (S&H) and I will respect your argument.

Re:Sure...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the day when the exectives should be fired because they understand as much economics as you and behave errorniously! Think before you talk about human resources and productivity. And take some economics courses!

Re:Sure...

[maddskillz]

Actually he said DVD-Xcopy users. The only reason to use DVD-XCopy is to burn movies, because it defeats the encryption. For data DVD's you can just use Nero, or any other favourite dvd burning software

Re:Sure...

[jratcliffe]

"Anyway, I couldn't imagine anyone better to cast the first stone than the one person on Earth who has never done anything remotely illegal."

I certainly do illegal things (I speed, for example, and I sure as hell didn't wait until I was 21 to drink!). That being said, I make no pretense that what I am/was doing is/was _legal_, nor do I complain about the "unjustness" of it when I get a speeding ticket - I took the risk, I accept the consequences.

"I may not have the billions it takes to fight the system, but I sure as hell can avoind buying their products so they can't screw me with my own money...Not to mention the quality of most games today is garbage."

OK, you don't want to buy their products, then don't, but don't pretend that the fact that you don't like their products enough to PAY for them somehow gives you the right to get them for FREE. Also, I might ask, if they're such garbage, why do you play them?

Re:Sure...

[shark72]

DVD burners are great and I know lots of folks who use them for general purpose data storage like you mention.

However, everybody I know who owns DVD X-Copy uses it to pirate (not "back up") DVDs. Likewise, everybody I know who uses Kazaa regularly, does it to download copyrighted music as an alternative to paying for it. Perhaps I'm hanging with the wrong crowd!

Mod Chips Up?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who is this "Chips" and what has he done to deserve to be modded up?

Re:Mod Chips Up?

[Jerf]

Chips is user 4885, and hasn't posted since May, 2002. You can't mod Chips up, all his posts are locked in the archives.

Re:Mod Chips Up?

[WingNut7]

What?!? Someone here doesn't know what chips are? Educate yourself

No, it has more to do with

[Anonymous Coward]

People buying used games and trading with friends.

The usual...

[detritus`]

Notice how they dont once mention that game industry revenues are up yet again, but like P2P mod chips are evil in their eyes... Personally i have a modded Xbox, and i just love the ability to have all my games on the HD as i use it in my car and i can throw the box somewhere nice and hidden and just hook it up to a 802.11g gateway when i need to update something. But apparently my doing this costs the game companies whose games i own money, prolly because i dont have to buy new copies to replace those that are all scratched up

Slogan.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Software Piracy - 30 years of killing the gaming industry!"

Re:Slogan.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Software Piracy - 30 years of killing the gaming industry!"

Yeah, the Gaming Industry looks dead alright! I mean, look at Electronic Arts. That company sucks, and is about to go under, big-time!

Re:Slogan.

[eddy]

It's been "down hill" for EA since Bard's Tale III

It's just now catching up with them.

Re:Slogan.

[GothChip]

Who says piracy kills games systems.

I remember copying games for my ZX Spectrum and that's still going strong!

Oh wait...

Re:Slogan.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, and the huge market for 70s television sets was destroyed by the 80s! Damned! And we had it all figured out. Create product. Sell same product... forever!

Now, the really sad part is that you probably thought -- and still do -- that you had a point.

Right here....

[Afbc0m]

I modded my xbox merely to let me both backup my games and to play mp3's on it... mp3's to which I legally obtained.

Re:Right here....

[mattkime]

Fair enough....

now are you willing to get into the trunk of Bray's Cadillac?

I have a mod chip and 0 pirated games

[iansmith]

The DVD player in the PS2 is really, really cheap and it does not take much to damage a PS2 DVD to the point where it does not play.

I have several such disks that I can only play because I have a MOD chip and I have copied the scratched DVD's to new disks that the PS2 can read.

Plus there are some neat free utilities for working with save games on the memory card, multimedia players and othersoftware that is difficult to run on an un-modded PS2.

Re:I have a mod chip and 0 pirated games

[NightSpots]

Moral of the story:

Don't buy a PS2.

If they're that flimsy, why waste your money?

Re:I have a mod chip and 0 pirated games

[dasmegabyte]

Congratulations. I know several people who have mod chips and 0 legitimate games. Anecdotal evidence isn't. Which was the problem with this article in the first place.

I'd love to believe that mod chips don't cause piracy or decrease sales in any way. But about three years ago, about the time I started working as a programmer, I made the conscious decision to stop pirating software. And you know what? I started buying a LOT more games. Even when I first bought my house and was living on credit, I was still buying games (not my fault. Blizzard's). Other friends who lost me as the source of their pirated games started buying more, too. In fact, we bought so many games that we wound up as the best customers of the local GameStop and made a lot more friends from this association.

Anecdotal again, I know. But hopefully you found some insight in it.

Re:I have a mod chip and 0 pirated games

[Anonymous Coward]

So what are you doing posting? Get in that Cadillac trunk, you bastard! There's plenty of room left.

Re:I have a mod chip and 0 pirated games

[AngstAndGuitar]

You reallize that this is a violation of the DMCA? You are supposed to buy new ones....

Re:I have a mod chip and 0 pirated games

[iansmith]

I should have stated that yes, I think the majority of MOD chip users are so they can play copied games.

That said, I have to add that I have always belived, and still do that most forms of copying INCREASE sales. People do copy games/programs/music/movies instead of buying them, but far, far more often they copy instead of NOT buying expensive music or games that simply can not afford.

This is a very difficult thing to try and calculate. If 100 copies of a game are passed around, how many of those people were going to actually buy that game and didn't, and how many friends of those 100 saw the game and bought it? How many never heard of the game before seeing a copied version?

Yes, sales ARE lost due top copying. But more are gained, at least in this game buyer and game writers opinion.

Relaited Point: Copying games/music is not a crime, it's copyright violation. :-)

Re:I have a mod chip and 0 pirated games

[tepples]

Copying games/music is not a crime, it's copyright violation.

Copyright violation is a crime.

Re:I have a mod chip and 0 pirated games

[Anonymous Coward]

More than likely the head on your ps2 has become misaligned. The early models had this problem. especialy if you tend to move the thing around a bit. Mine from day one was on end. Then I found a better spot for it but it had to be laid down flat. It stopped working within a day. Put it back on end and it worked fine again. I think something is loose in there. Ive talked to a few people in local shops they get hundreds of the things a month and fix them. Usually for 30-50 bucks (good money).

To fix you basicly have to rip the thing apart and realign the heads and tighten down the screws again. This is very common if you have a ps2 that was made within a year or so of the original release date. Sony has 'fixed' the problem in newer versions. But it still happens. There are 2 heads in there and a swivel that changes between heads. Usually that is what is loose.

Here is a decent thing on how to fix the thing.
http://www.arstechnica.com/reviews/003/gam ing/ps2/ ps2-1.html

$Money$

[millahtime]

Wait, how much money do they bring in a year???? Isn't it more than the motion picture industry.

What is the percent increase in industry revenues... isn't it something huge.

And they are crying already. I know just a handful of people with hacked systems. Maybe 1/50 people and I am a tech guy. Are they taking their cue from teh RIAA now.

Here comes more laws....

[NIN1385]

Well well, looks like the gaming industry is hurting from people copying media and sharing it. We should be seeing laws some day soon, since whenever the rich start to loose their money they start bribing politicians. Let's just hope they realize sooner than the RIAA did that you'll never get rid of people sharing stuff. Sharing is the first step towards peace! Alright...so it is an excuse, so what!

Re:Here comes more laws....

[RdsArts]

We should be seeing laws some day soon,

They already have one. It's called the DMCA.

Re:Here comes more laws....

[Anonymous Coward]

Or maybe there hurt because people like me got tired of paying 50 bucks for a game that can be beat in 3 days if i really tried? Just a "radical" thought.

Of course the question as always is...

[barfy]

Is not are they pirates, but are they "customers?"

The truth is that the vast majority probably do use them to pirate games. But, that is not necessarily lost revenue or signficantly revenue, as they are probably not customers either...

But that probably shouldn't mean that it should be "easy", because then customers DO become pirates.

Re:Of course the question as always is...

[Anonymous Coward]

The truth is that the vast majority probably do use them to pirate games. But, that is not necessarily lost revenue or signficantly revenue, as they are probably not customers either...

I'll be honest here (of course I'm an Anonymous Coward too). I own an XBOX with a modchip. And I pirate games. I have downloaded about 175 games for the XBOX, of course a nice chunk of those games are not even available in my country. But the truth of the matter is, I don't think I would waste even $10-20 on most of them. I actually own about 10 games personally, and I play or have played most of those all the way through. But it just seems that most games I download aren't worth the effort anyways (as most of them seem to either be FPS or Sports games). Maybe I am of the minority here, but it just seems to me that if people really enjoy a game and play it alot, they will most likely end up buying it anyways.

Re:Of course the question as always is...

[Mike Hawk]

You don't think that just maybe already having aquired the game for free might just possibly in some way have a chance that it just might maybe affect your perception of the value of the game?

Re:Of course the question as always is...

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't think that just maybe already having aquired the game for free might just possibly in some way have a chance that it just might maybe affect your perception of the value of the game?

Nope, it mainly has to do with the fact that the games that I have tried (FPS types) all are becoming more and more similar to eachother. Like I said, it seems like a huge percentage of the games for the XBOX (and probably every other console and PCs) are the standard first person shooter that doesn't seem to have anything new. When I play a new game, I like to find something new. It just reminds me of mods you find for Quake and such. Where engine and gameplay is exactly the same, but they just change some graphics and the objectives.

Lets not even get into some of the racing games, either.

Re:Of course the question as always is...

[Mike Hawk]

So you are saying that in your humble opinion that it is 100% outside of the realm of possibility that the fact that you typically don't pay for games has no effect whatsoever on the value you perceive them to have? And this applies to all 100+ games you have on your Xbox?

How is it any facetious than the submission?

[Anonymous Coward]

After all, the submitter didn't offer any hard numbers.

I suspect the journalist was correct - the bulk of mod chppers are pirates.

Less concerned with piracy

[karb]

But how many mod chip users are interested in making honest backups? You could probably fit them all into the trunk of a Cadillac, with space left over for a spare tire.

More concerned a boston globe reporter is plotting to kidnap me.

Re:Less concerned with piracy

[DeltaSigma]

Me too. But hey, Cadillac trunks are pretty big right? There's room for both of us if we remove the spare tire...

Damage industry revenue?

[User 956]

Damage industry revenue? I'm sorry, did I miss the press release where Microsoft started selling XBOX Media player in a retail package?

Screw games, watching movies from a shared network resource is what it's all about.

Re:Damage industry revenue?

[SiW]

Yes, I think you did miss the release where they announced a product that allows you to stream your movies from a shared network resource.

3rd-party tools such as XMP do indeed damage revenue, then, just as Linux and BSD damage Windows sales.

I'm not saying we as customers shouldn't have a choice, I'm just saying that from Company X's point of view a free competing product is definitely going to do some damage.

Re:Damage industry revenue?

[User 956]

Yes, I think you did miss the release where they announced a product that allows you to stream your movies from a shared network resource.

Of course, you can only stream from a $1500 windows media center PC. It won't let you stream from a 500gb Raid V Samba share, or a NAS device.

I'm just saying that from Company X's point of view a free competing product is definitely going to do some damage.

I wouldn't exactly describe them as "competing products", considering the Media center PC marketshare is miniscule, compared to the number of people with a cheap linux fileserver.

With its current restrictions, Windows Media Center edition is for suckers and old people.

One big "legit" modechip use reason

[Anonymous Coward]

Bypass international restrictions. There are Americans who are interested in playing Japanese releases of games for various reasons.

Trunk??

[Killjoy_NL]

"You could probably fit them all into the trunk of a Cadillac, with space left over for a spare tire."

What do they wanna do?? Kill all the good guys and sue the rest ??

Re:Trunk??

[Paleomacus]

First they want to take all the good guys money and then sue any of the rest who don't give up all their money. Then they'll kill everybody and sell the parts on the black market.

I didn't read the article so I really have no idea who 'they' are.

It's mine

[Doesn't_Comment_Code]

Modifying something you own is NOT illegal. You might be able to do something illegal as a result. Then that action would be illegal, not the modification.

When I was a kid, nothing was soldered shut. You could open any product you wanted to fix it or see how it worked.

Recently, I've seen companies try to scare you into not altering what you buy through voiding warranties and placing intimidating stickers on access panels.

I'm getting sort of sick of it. Once I buy something, it is mine to do with as I please. I can meddle with it, improve it, or smash it with a hammer. It's mine. And I'd appreciate if they could all remember that.

Re:It's mine

[Jacer]

It is illegal, deal with it. If you want to change the law (dmca) that makes acts that circumvent copy protection illegal, then you need to lobby your representatives. here are some good links

Re:It's mine

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, the console makers sell the consoles at a lose, and only make the money back by selling games. So if you illegal mod and pirate games, then they will just lose money from you. That is why the say you cannot mod the console.

The should on the other hand have the normal $200 console, and maybe release a $600 console for people like you.

Re:It's mine

[pballsim]

I agree with you...

The reason companies have intimidating stickers is because of stupid law-suits. Somebody opens up their device, does something wrong/stupid and expects the company to pay for it. Why do you think they have stupid labels on products. Like "Don't use this hair dryer in the shower!"

Re:It's mine

[DR SoB]

Kinda like modifing gasoline with fertilizer? Technically I _own_ both products, right?

Ever notice on the back of many products it says "This is the sole property of XXXX, all rights reserved, duplication, modification, or passing this to a friend is illegal" yadda yadda (for example the back of a satellite card for your TV will have this warning)... Does that explain it? You may not think it's right, but then, nobody is forcing you into purchasing the product in the first place...

Re:It's mine

[pilgrim23]

It started with cars... Ever looked at the gas tank fill port? All modern cars have a narrow port. This was because leaded gas would destroy your catalytic converter. Leaded gas was dispensed via a fatter nozzle. Altering the intake on your gas tank became a Federal Crime. Open the door for tyrany "For the good of all of us" any one place, and you slam and lock the door of liberty...everywhere.

Re:It's mine

[wfberg]

Well, the console makers sell the consoles at a lose, and only make the money back by selling games. So if you illegal mod and pirate games, then they will just lose money from you. That is why the say you cannot mod the console.

That's their choice. Saying that modifying per se should be illegal (rather than copying games, which has always been illegal) because it might cause you to not earn back the loss on your loss-leader is like saying everyone who sees an advertisement for your product and doesn't buy the thing is a thief. (Charities tend to be rather good at the latter; they sometimes send out cheques with a free pen, trying to make you feel guilty for being cheap if you don't give anything back.)

Also, not watching ads is theft too. Yeah.

Re:It's mine

[Doesn't_Comment_Code]

Actually, I have sent two letters to each of my congressmen concerning DMCA/copyright issues. In each I have noted that I am a copyright owner, and that I am totally against laws that skew the balance between copyright holders and copyright consumers.

I would encourage everyone else to contact their congressmen as well. Most of them have a contact form on their webpage.

Re:It's mine

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't_Comment_Code

I am a copyright owner

No one wants your copyrighted code so it doesn't matter.

Re:It's mine

[sethamin]

Actually it most certainly can be illegal because of something we call the DMCA. Don't confuse common sense with the law.

Re:It's mine

[Doesn't_Comment_Code]

Ever notice on the back of many products it says "This is the sole property of XXXX, all rights reserved, duplication, modification, or passing this to a friend is illegal

I have seen those notices, and those are what bother me. If the representative government decides something is truley harmful, and that there are no legitimate uses, then they can outlaw it. But, to my understanding, a company cannot alter the provisions of a sale without you specifically agreeing. That is why a court threw out a provision denying the right of first sale in the Adobe EULA.

If I sign a contract agreeing not to use a product in a certain way, or not to sell it to anyone else, then I've sacrificed my own rights. But no company has the right to tell me that I cannot sell or use their product in a manner outside what they intended it for.

This is what dumbs down the entire population - the idea that you have no control and shouldn't be interested in knowing or doing anything. You should just get your pay check and spend it. That is your purpose.

What a crock!

Re:It's mine

[PhotoBoy]

I live in the UK, I use mod-chips.

We get the short end of it in Europe when it comes to games releases, we can sometimes wait more than 6 months for a game to be released over here. When the game is finally released there are often large black borders (because the PAL TV system has more lines than the NTSC one) and the game is often slower due to PAL running at 50Hz not 60Hz. Most modern TVs can handle an NTSC signal but not all, which is why our games are often "crippled" in this way.

I got sick of this back in the Super Famicom days and have been importing machines and games ever since. Good ol' Sega tried their best with the Dreamcast and offered 60Hz with no borders options on most of their games but to my knowledge Sony, Nintendo and MS have not followed suit with their machines. (I haven't bought a UK console game in years!)

It annoys me greatly to be immediately associated with pirates whenever I tell someone I have a modded console, I just love playing games and I hate having to wait for the games companies to get around to tossing out an inferior version for the EU market.

If they sold mod-chips that let me play import games but not pirates I would buy it in a shot. Sadly I think most mod-chip companies would see a drop in profits if they did that.

Re:It's mine

[globalar]

I agree, the rights of the buyer are often neglected. Some companies simply want the kind of control over their products that dictators have over their police states. Also, companies are essentially greedy and do not necessarily care to share anything with the consumer or allow the product to be used in any way other than to their business interests. Respect in capitalism seems to be an extra charge.

It's not entirely one-sided though. Lawsuits are also a part of this trend. A company can get slammed if they don't specify everything, sometimes to absurd detail. Companies are trying to scare you because that tactic seems to work against would-be plaintiffs. In today's world, customers can actually be a liability.

Re:It's mine

[jargoone]

Regarding warranty invalidating stickers: these don't necessarily mean that a company doesn't want you seeing how their product works. It just means that when you fuck up your foozle machine by opening it up and installing a fazzle chip, you should expect them to fix it. Seems perfectly reasonable to me, and I like it because it saves me, a legitimate foozle machine purchaser, money.

Re:It's mine

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with you but I do see a point in voiding warranties. What happens is joe smoe toys around with his box, breaks its, and now wants a free replacement for something he broke.

I'm sick of both worlds. I'm sick of corporate, their run arounds, and trying to bs why its wrong to copy blah blah blah and I'm sick of annoying customers "oh well I dropped a 50 pound rock on this system here, I EXPECT a new one at no cost" Oh well such is the sad state we are living in nowadays.

Re:It's mine

[Doesn't_Comment_Code]

No one wants your copyrighted code so it doesn't matter.

Posting negative comments as a coward with no substance? Hmmm

I never said it was code, and it happens to be worth a reasonable amount of royalty money. That only strengthens my point when I write to my congressmen. I don't think the DMCA or similar laws are necessary to protect my property and I think they do more harm than good.

Re:It's mine

[DR SoB]

The governement does it too, read the back of a bus card sometime...

You can sign away your own rights, you are "signing" the contract simply by purchasing it, and in some cases, they explicitly say you are purchasing there SERVICES and the equipment is actually theirs..

Re:It's mine

[katsushiro]

Recently, I've seen companies try to scare you into not altering what you buy through voiding warranties and placing intimidating stickers on access panels.

While I agree with most of your statement, I have to say that there's a reason for those 'scary stickers' and the voiding of the warranty if you open up the machine and screw around with it.

The company I work for does a little bit of everything, including general computer repair. All computers we fix have a 90 day warranty. And we put one of those stickers on the back of the case, so that if you open the case, you have to break or tear off the sticker, making it obvious you opened it. Why? We have no problem with you opening up your box and peeing all over all the components if you like, but we also have no desire to fix your computer a second time for free if you do that.

We've had customers take away a perfectly working computer one day, and come back a week later saying that it's broken again and they want their warranty honored, and then we notice the sticker's been torn loose, and when we look inside, the damn thing has a different motherboard and a P4 instead of the Athlon it had last week. Needless to say, we did not honor his warranty. We did, however, fix his problem, and he left a couple days later with a fully wokring P4 system. Variations on this have happened way too often.

We have nothing against you modyfying your hardware, open it up, look around, whatever. But don't expect your warranty to still be there when you close that case up again. We can't be held responsible for whatever screw ups you may inflict on the machine while you're in there.

As always: mod all you want, so long as you either: a) know exactly what you're doing, or b)don't mind losing your warranty and paying for service or a replacement when it breaks. If you can't handle those two conditions, then don't mod. Things are tight enough without having to fix some idiot's overclocked GeForce FX for free.

Re:It's mine

[Anonymous Coward]

Just saying that people who dont comment their code SUCK,

Re:It's mine

[berchca]

Would this be a precident for OPEC going after people who modified cars to run on Bio-Diesel?

Re:It's mine

[Anonymous Coward]

AHAHAHAHA hohohoho wehehehe....whoo...lemme catch my bre--

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhahahahaha! heheAhahaha! Oh boy...oh jesus...christ on a popsickle stick you are funny!

Why did you post AC? This nugget of pure humor shouldn't be owner-less.

Seriously though what the hell is wrong with you? I'm curious.

Re:It's mine

[Anonymous Coward]

Kinda like modifing gasoline with fertilizer? Technically I _own_ both products, right?

That's perfectly legal. It's what you do with it after that's the problem. Just like mod chips before the DMCA.

I don't know if they still have it, but the government printing office used to have a pamphlet telling farmers how make fertilizer bombs for trunk removal. It was still available after the Oklahma City bombing.

Re:It's mine

[dasmegabyte]

Actually, there are tons of things that you "own" but can't modify. You can't, for example, run your car without an emissions control system. You won't pass inspection and will have to take it off the road. You can't modify your house's water line (for fear of contamination of the shared aquafer). You can't modify your cell phone to boost the signal power beyond the legal limit. In short, if modifying something you own interferes with others, or allows you to interfere with others, you probably can't do it. Argue if you want that it's the interference, not the modification, that breaks the law, but you can't prevent interference that's already happening. You CAN prevent modification (to a point).

And as for the whole warranty thing: generally, a company is in its right to deny you warranty protection in a static sensitive device if you open it, and they'd be kind of nuts not to warn you of this fact. Otherwise, every inquisitive idiot with a screwdriver would have a never ending source of hardware to break. That note says "Hey, go ahead, if you know what you're doing, but we're not obligated to clean up your mess," and without that warning, they might not be able to afford to offer you a warranty at all. Shit, I broke three dreamcasts trying to put a mod chip in (the old 26 wire style), and it was only the lack of a "don't modify" tag that allowed me to do it.

Re:It's mine

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, companies are essentially greedy and do not necessarily care to share anything with the consumer or allow the product to be used in any way other than to their business interests.

Hey moron, companies are in business for the sole purpose of making money. Everything they do is designed to make them more money. They have no interest in being so nice that customers all fell warm and fuzzy. They have no interest in sharing trade secrets with the customer just because they are swell guys. They have no interest in allowing people to circumvent copy protections that are in place to ensure their revenue.

Guess what? If they were not like this, they would not make money and would go out of business, and then you couldn't play your precious video game even if you wanted.

Re:It's mine

[Anonymous Coward]

If I modify some of the things I OWN around my house and just happen to make a lot of explosives. I really don't see the problem because I OWN it. Modifying something you OWN is not illegal.

Personally I back all of the steps MS has taken as a result of modding. You may alienate .001% of the users but it's worth it.

Re:It's mine

[dirk]

You are right, you can modify your X-Box however you want and it is legal. You can paint it, smash it, pee on it, and put a new chip in it and it is all perfectly legal. What you CANNOT do is put a chip containing code that MS owns and you have modified and have no right to use in there. Many people mistakenly believe the act of putting a new chip in their X-Box is illegal. It is not. It is the act of using code owned by MS that you have no right to use or modify that is illegal. If you can write your own BIOS for the chip and throw it in an X-Box and make it work, you are free and clear.

Re:It's mine

[drinkypoo]

Actually it is questionable whether you have the right to run code derived from microsoft code or not. If it's derived from the version that came with your Xbox, the EULA prohibits modifying the code, but that doesn't mean the law does. However the DMCA prohibits access prevention circumvention mechanisms (Even if your use is legal) so you could penalize someone on those grounds. Since shrinkwrap EULAs are generally considered to be an invalid legal document (you haven't signed anything, and you can purchase and thus own the product without agreeing to the EULA, you don't have to agree to it to remove it from the store for example) the only thing standing in your way is the DMCA.

Re:It's mine

[ect5150]

It is illegal, deal with it.

Maybe when the vast majority of companies start obeying the laws, I might consider it. When they do as they please, I'll do as I please...

Re:It's mine

[Snad]

60Hz with no borders options on most of their games but to my knowledge Sony, Nintendo and MS have not followed suit with their machines.

You'll be pleased to know that nearly every Nintendo Gamecube game either offers a 60hz PAL option or is a properly coded 50hz version (thus have no black borders or slow down).

I can't speak for the PS2 or XBox though since I don't use either one.

There is still the delay issue in getting games across the pond, as it were, and of course the large number of games released in Japan that simply never make it out, but at least it's a start.

Re:It's mine

[mr.capaneus]

I am not a lawyer but I play one on slashdot. Seriously, I usually avoid these legal discussions like the plague but the attitude that you have adopted seems to be getting more prevalent. I guess companies have finally succeded in duping us.
As a private citizen, you cannot write something down on a piece of paper and make it become a law. Imagine how ludicrous things would be if that were the case. When you purchase something, it is yours. You can do whatever you want within the constraints of the law. Notice I said LAW, not whatever arbitrary rules the manufacturer thinks they can intimidate you into following. Those warnings/agreements are just a bold face attempt to bulldog the consumer with no legal backing. It would be very bizarre if they held up in court, but you will never see them tested since they are only there for intimidation purposes anyway.

Re:It's mine

[mr.capaneus]

As I pointed out in another post, all the examples you gave are violations of the law. Violating an existing law is a completely tangental issue to violating an arbitrary set of regulations that a company would like to have on their product. As long as you are violating any law, you are fine. For example, you can legally mod your Xbox or PS2 all you want as long as you do not infringe on any copyrights (i.e. games or BIOS code).
Of course, you are right about warranties. For the most part, they are left to the discretion of the manufacturer (or retailer). The only irritating thing about the warranty warnings is that they are often written in a way that suggests that you would be breaking the law if you do something to violate the warranty. This is just consumer intimidation and it is getting a little bit tiresome.
This may be somewhat off-topic but have you ever noticed how some commercial software (i.e. from MS) will say "Do not make illegal copies of this software" on the CD? They don't want to say "Don't make any copies of this disk" because they would get taken to task over that. They just want to make the casual consumer think copy == illegal. Why else would they point out that you shouldn't do something illegal? I think most mentally competent adults understand that, by definition, they are not to do anything that is illegal.

Re:It's mine

[DR SoB]

It's very iffy, and depends on your local laws, here is a great discussion on this exact topic, regarding NDS access cards:

http://forums.digitalinsurrection.com/forum/show th read/t-104244.html

Follow the links to legal-rights.org and you can read about current cases..

Re:It's mine

[mr.capaneus]

There is a space in that link that shouldn't be there.
Anyway, the NDS card thing is a very different issue than what we are discussing for a couple of reasons.
1. The people who are getting jacked over in these cases are getting sued. It is a civil matter and they are usually caving in without going to trial. 2. The reason people are settling rather than going to trial is that they are guilty of breaking the law (i.e. stealing satellite). 3. People who have been prosecuted criminally have been charged with stealing cable, not modifying hardware. They modified hardware to steal cable but that is not what they are prosecuted for. 4. There is a case for prosecuting someone for modifying hardware if they are renting it. You cannot rent something and screw around with it but if you own it, it is fair game. If the user is renting the equipment from the satellite company (which is common) modifying it is equivalent to vandalism.

Re:It's mine

[mr.capaneus]

There is a space in that link that shouldn't be there.
Anyway, the NDS card thing is a very different issue than what we are discussing for a couple of reasons.
1. The people who are getting jacked over in these cases are getting sued. It is a civil matter and they are usually caving in without going to trial.
2. The reason people are settling rather than going to trial is that they are guilty of breaking the law (i.e. stealing satellite).
3. People who have been prosecuted criminally have been charged with stealing cable, not modifying hardware. They modified hardware to steal cable but that is not what they are prosecuted for.
4. There is a case for prosecuting someone for modifying hardware if they are renting it. You cannot rent something and screw around with it but if you own it, it is fair game. If the user is renting the equipment from the satellite company (which is common) modifying it is equivalent to vandalism.

Forgot to put the line breaks in.

Re:It's mine

[Anonymous Coward]

And don't forget the GC has an inofficial bootdisk that lets you play imorted games without doing a hardware mod (and doesn't disable copy protection and is therefore legal under DMCA and EUCD).

Re:It's mine

[DR SoB]

The broken link was due to the fact I post in Plain Text and not HTML...

1. Same thing, it is a civil matter, i.e. Adobe..

2. The DMCA says it's against the law to break into someones code.. I don't really see your point there, it's the same thing..

3. Actually, it's not cable, it's satellite, but yeah, anyways.. The are not modifing the hardware at all, they are modifing the SOFTWARE on the card, same thing..

4. Again, they are NOT modifing hardware, it's software. You are _not_ renting those cards, you pay for them (as was noted in the link I posted). If you lose the card, you spend $80 to get a new one, there is no rental agreement other then what's printed on the back of the card (which is what we were discussing).

Line breaks are good.. I just use Plain Text since you don't have to worry about that.. Too bad it screws up links..

Re:It's mine

[dasmegabyte]

Uh...they point it out because MS EXPECTS you to make copies of their software, for backup and installation purposes. Why else would they send you a site license with a hundred activation keys and a single set of discs? You're supposed to copy the CD, or put it on your network. That's why there's no copy protection on MS CDs, and why they require individual activation codes now. The ILLEGAL isn't there to make people associate it with COPIES, it's there to differentiate between two VERY different uses for copies.

BTW: as greedy as people try to make the new activation scheme seem, MS tends to play pretty loose with their licenses for business customers. They just gave us a key good for 40 installs of a package under our MSDE agreement, which only secures 5.

Re:It's mine

[mr.capaneus]

1. My point with it being a civil matter is that people are settling because it is cheaper than fighting it and the issue is not being tested in the courts.

2. The DMCA has nothing to do with what we are discussing (modding consoles) unless you take a VERY extreme interpretation of it. If Sony, Nintendo and MS thought that they could successfully invoke the DMCA against modders, they probably would have done it by now. It just does not apply.

3. OK. Find me a single case of someone that has been prosecuted criminally for modifying a card but not stealing satellite. Also, modding a console does not involve modifying any software. You are just replacing the BIOS.

4. The issue of ownership is more ambiguous unless you buy the card somewhere. If you get it along with your other rented satellite equipment it may be covered under the rental agreement. If you lose the reciever, you're going to have to pay for a replacement as well. That is how renting works. I won't argue over this any more, though since I don't know the details of the rental agreement so you may be right about the card ownership. Regardless, If you buy it from a flea market or something it is yours. Do what you want with it, just don't steal satellite. If DirecTV sues you and you have the cash to fight it, you will win.

Also, as I said before modding a console is NOT modifying software, so these issues really do not correlate. It would be similar of you were to chip your console and use a modified MS or Sony BIOS (which people do, I think). However if you just drop in a Free replacement BIOS, there is nothing illegal about it.

Re:It's mine

[mr.capaneus]

Those warnings were on the retail versions of Windows 95/98. I'm pretty sure they were thinking of home users when they did that. Anyway, it just seems dumb to me that they would need to say "Don't do something illegal". Imagine if all products were like that.
Acme hammer - Do not illegally bludgeon a hobo with this hammer.
Acme sewing machine - Do not sew illegal garments with this sewing machine.
If something is illegal we know not to do it.

Re:It's mine

[dasmegabyte]

Hey, I didn't say it wasnt' stupid. Just that they were doing it to indicate that, yes, you can make copies of the disc, so long as they aren't for illegal distribution. Maybe the phrasing is bad.

Re:It's mine

[DR SoB]

Ahh, I see your point now. Sorry, I thought you were saying that modifying an NDS card was not modifying software, my mistake.

It's getting to crazy to figure out all this stuff, I'm sure the DMCA will be amended soon... (hopefully?!)

Re:It's mine

[ScrewMaster]

You think that's bad: my blow dryer has a six-inch label on the power cord that says (in big bold red letters), "WARN CHILDREN OF THE RISK OF DEATH BY ELECTROCUTION." Sure. Any kid too young/stupid to understand that probably can't read the label anyway. Unless it's referring to the death penalty. I dunno.

Re:It's mine

[Alsee]

Interesting punctuation style you have,

-

Re:It's mine

[Alsee]

GC has an inofficial bootdisk that lets you play imorted games without doing a hardware mod (and doesn't disable copy protection and is therefore legal under DMCA and EUCD).

You missunderstand the DMCA, and to the best of my knowledge the EUCD is effectively identical.

They do NOT have anything to do with copy protection. It is about "access control". Go ahead, read them.

If you make an completely bit-for-bit 'pirate' copy of a game it will run just fine. It's just that they use special disks and ordinary PC's can't make that exact copy. The DMCA/EUCD would not apply at all. They have no connection to copying or piracy at all.

The boot disk you describe to load legitimate out-of area disks *does* circumvent the access controls, and this *is* a violation of the DMCA and EUCD.

So making an illegal copy is not a violation of the DMCA/EUDA. Playing a LEGITIMATE disk you own as you suggest *is* a crime under the DMCA/EUCD.

It's an absurd law.

-

Re:It's mine

[Jacer]

The only problem with that is that you don't have the lobbying power they do. Hey, you might even be a popular guy, but I seriously doubt you have as many friends in high places as any big buisness. Our only hope is protesting, talking, and voting. Breaking the law may sound like a good idea, but to me, it demonstrates immaturity.

Re:It's mine

[bentcd]

They just gave us a key good for 40 installs of a package
under our MSDE agreement, which only secures 5.

That's just so they can send the BSA to bust down
your door and fine you a couple off million when
they find that you are using 6 of them :-)
Cynical? Who? Me? :-)

Go with your gut feeling

[HardCase]

Are the majority of mod chip users 'pirates' or are they legitimate users with legitimate applications for the modifications that Bray hasn't considered?

The majority of the mod chip users that I know are pirates.

-h-

Re:Go with your gut feeling

[iainl]

Really, none of the mod chip users I know are - they are all running either media players loaded up with their own paid-for music, chipped it to enable prog-scan on DVDs, or play their old NES and so on games on emulators.

I guess you just hang out with more criminals ;-)

Re:Go with your gut feeling

[FrostedWheat]

The majority of the mod chip users that I know are pirates.

Well you try to swap a disk with a hook for an arm without scratching it! It makes sense to backup in that case!

Re:Go with your gut feeling

[Anonymous Coward]

The majority of the mod chip users that I know are pirates.

The majority of the anecdotal evidence that I have encountered has been useless.

Re:Go with your gut feeling

[HardCase]

I guess you just hang out with more criminals ;-)

That's always possible...I guess it also goes to show the value of anecdotal evidence.

-h-

Re:Go with your gut feeling

[runderwo]

I use mod chips, and I am only an occasional infringer of the try-before-you-buy sort, preferring the homebrew/porting scene to making unlawful copies of commercial games.

Outlaw the tool, or punish the illegal uses of the tool?

Does ANYBODY find it suspicious that...

[StandardCell]

...revenues are down because of "pirate" chips, yet there's a marked decline in originality and an increase in sequels?

This is almost starting to sound like the flailings of the RIAA.

Re:Does ANYBODY find it suspicious that...

[Beatbyte]

Ever meet the guy at work who just hangs out around the water cooler talking smack? What happens when stuff starts going wrong?

First: Point finger at someone else.
Second: When you get blamed-Deny Deny Deny!!

Re:Does ANYBODY find it suspicious that...

[Anonymous Coward]

People get a monthly Blockbuster accounts, with the sole purpose of renting 3-4 games per week and pirating them. These are the same folks directly in the Xbox target demographic.

Re:Does ANYBODY find it suspicious that...

[drinkypoo]

Well this article has no meat. It doesn't say how they decided that revenues are down. As others have pointed out the current generation of consoles is coming to a close and naturally sales will be down. For all we know their figures on percent of games pirated are from a simpler, easier time when PC game 'protection' consisted of a manual with the codes printed in non-photo blue, and their revenue per game is computed at 2004 levels. There's no actual information, it's all editorial. Which makes me wonder, what's it doing here?

Re:Does ANYBODY find it suspicious that...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I thinks it is in part because a lot of people are cheap skates and don't feel like paying for games. Even if there was more originality and less sequals they would still be pirating.

Oh no, now the game companies are t3h ev1l!!!1!11! Wow, then that logic that therefore justifys downloading and using illegal copies, because they are greedy for trying to make a profit off of their work!

Re:Does ANYBODY find it suspicious that...

[Jagasian]

Well, there are still great original games, but they just don't get the same hype as the big game company's games. Check out Puzzle Pirates for an innovative game that combines Ultima Online, Tetris, and Pirates!

Re:Does ANYBODY find it suspicious that...

[Anonymous Coward]

DUH! It's because new, original games don't sell. People BUY sequels because they are reasonably sure of what they're getting. They pirate new, original games because they're afraid to take a chance.

Backups are legit for some of us...

[stephenisu]

how many mod chip users are interested in making honest backups?

Those of us with young children who love playing with shiny discs...

The DiscDoctor can't do a lot when they scrape off the top of the disc, or you have resurfaced it so many times the disc gets too thin for the laser to focus..

Re:Backups are legit for some of us...

[bi_boy]

The DiscDoctor can't do a lot anyway, it's a horrible "tool" and only managed to make two HALO discs that were "sort-of" playable to "not playable" at all. Gah.

Re:Backups are legit for some of us...

[stephenisu]

While I am not so much a fan of the device, you may be able to fix the discs.

USE A LOT of the fluid. If not you get an effect similar to burning plastic with a buffing machine when you were trying to polish it. It will have a rough enough surface to refract light every which way.

Re:Backups are legit for some of us...

[deft]

have you considered, instead of modding your system, installing lord knows what, yadda yadda.....

putting the discs on a higher shelf?

Re:Backups are legit for some of us...

[runderwo]

Would it be a good idea to submerge it while polishing the disc? The resurfacing fluid is just distilled water, isn't it?

Re:Backups are legit for some of us...

[stephenisu]

for double sided DVD's I DO submerge them. As for single sided discs, the data side will get wet and probably suffer damage if it doesn't have a good coating of a non-poris protector.

Come on

[Swamii]

What a liar. We make backups; just most of the backups are of games that we don't own. :-)

Re:Come on

[Anonymous Coward]

someone has to make backups for Blockbuster's discs. They would get upset if their discs were damaged by renters.

PSOne

[xMac]

I own a PSOne that's modded. i wanted the convenience of being able to play games I bought in japan on my US playstation.

i even own a japanese playstation. but it's nice not to have to switch consoles around.

i don't even make a backup of my games. if it breaks, i'll get another one, just like most other things i own which i cannot "clone."

so i call shotgun on that cadillac!

I never

[stoolpigeon]

knew much about mod chips or anything and then last week I watched that new Broken video where they showed a little bit about installing them on 3 consoles. I never understood what mod chips did before that.

They made it perfectly clear in that video that the whole point was you could borrow or rent games and then keep them after you return the physical media. Why else would you pay that kind of money for the chip and then install it- when it looks like you are chancing junking the console?

Now I still use my Sega Genesis- I don't own one of the newer systems, so maybe I'm wrong. But it seems that the slant of this - "it's not for illegal uses!" argument in the thread is /. bias that is as bad or worse than any assumptions the author of the article made.

Re:I never

[iainl]

Sure, I'm perfectly prepared to believe there are many out there using it to copy games, just as many people copied Playstation games.

But every chipped XBox owner I know is more interested in playing copies of Genesis or Snes games than illegal XBox ones. Not least because practically every decent XBox game these days is online, and you can't play backups on Live.

Re:I never

[drinkypoo]

I have a modded Xbox. I have broadband. I use bittorrent. In spite of this I have 0 copied games. Actually I bought a game (007Auf) to use for modding, but I bought it used so Microsoft doesn't see any licensing revenue on that sale. It came with Sega GT and Jet Set Radio Future. I got Tetris Worlds but the key layout is not configurable, so I got rid of it. I haven't played any of the three Xbox titles I have since the first few months of ownership, and have been using it almost exclusively to run xsnes9x and xbox media player.

Re:I never

[Tigen]

>> I have 0 copied games
>> using it almost exclusively to run xsnes9x

So I guess you own all those SNES games? Yeah right.

Re:I never

[drinkypoo]

Well I meant copied Xbox games :)

See everything an XBox can do besides play backups

[Anonymous Coward]

www.xbox-scene.com
www.xboxmediacenter.com

Worth a look. Now that XBoxes have dropped to $149 and you can mod one without buying a chip, it is a great investment.

All my friends want one, must have it too!

[Hekatchu]

I dont think mod chips are that bad or that they cause braindamage or instant illegal behaviour.

You see, if you are a young guy whose friend is big and everybody likes him, and hes got a MOD CHIP! then you must have it too, and your friend too!!

There are real pirates, who are outnumbered, and then there is the mainstream who likes to hang around.

One word: kids

[badzilla]

I'm amazed how fragile PS2 games are, one decent-size scratch on the printed side and its a goner. You and I might put such a sensitive and expensive item carefully back in its jewel case, but kids drop them behind the TV or use them as impromptu cutting tools or space weapons. I've lost count of the tearful occasions when things won't load.

Their console isn't modchipped - but I wish it was.

Re:One word: kids

[Zenki]

Then kids need to learn to take care of their media. The next time they complain that some game or DVD movie is not load, just calmly tell them why it won't load. Show them the scratches on the bottom of the dvd, or the gouge on top that destroyed the data layer. Explain to them the media is completely ruined and that it was a big chunk of change.

Let them contemplate that and if they start treating other games better, then reward them by replacing that lost game or movie. It'll save you money in the long run, and hopefully teach them the value of money so they won't start blowing it off and getting into massive American-style debt in their teen years.

Re:One word: kids

[Jerf]

The printed side is where the data is. If they scratch that, the data is for all useful purposes gone.

If you must put CDs or CD-like things down without putting them back in their case, always put them clear-side down, as scratches there aren't necessarily terminal.

Some people think they're being clever putting the printed side down but that's not true. (This is a general comment, not directed at your post specifically.)

Re:One word: kids

[dasmegabyte]

Would you trust your kids to play with your fine china? CD based games are even more fragile than that, and more expensive.

Rather than bemoan the inferior durability of game cds, why not institute a "The Playstation is in a locked cabinet, Dad has to change the disc for you" policy until the kids are mature enough to understand what $50 really is? It's what my wife's aunt does for her kids (they have a similar policy for DVDs).

Re:One word: kids

[Inda]

You can't get a better answer to a problem like that. Unless violence... :)

I just so wanted to reply "But in the real world..."

I'm sure my three year old would sit there quietly while I explained that "the gouge on top destroyed the data layer".

I'm only joking with ya but I think she already knows that disks come from the magic spindle. :)

Re:One word: kids

[drinkypoo]

You have to be really really careful about putting it label side down, too. IF you put it on a wet surface, the water can remove the metal layer sometimes. I have killed a CDR (though not a CD) just by laying my moist (perspiring) arm on a CD for about ten seconds and lifting it off. The metal layer was stuck to my arm... If you ever HAVE to put a CD down on a surface without putting it in a case, DON'T. Unless your children are on fire or something.

Re:One word: kids

[mr.capaneus]

Explain to them the media is completely ruined and that it was a big chunk of change.Let them contemplate that...
Either you don't spend much time around kids or you spend time around some exceptionally mature ones. Keep in mind that we are talking about little people that pick their nose and eat it.

Re:One word: kids

[Spy Hunter]

You have to be really really careful about putting it label side down, too.

Um, that's what he just said. You shouldn't lay CDs down upside-down, because the side that's most vulnerable to damage is the label side, not the clear side (counterintuitively). Also, writing on a cd label with a ballpoint pen or hard pencil makes an instant coaster because you just crush the metal layer that has all the tiny pits (try it on a junk CDR and look at the other side, you can see the damage). Damage to the clear side is mostly harmless unless it's really extreme, so it really isn't a problem to put CDs on a surface with the clear side down (unless you put something abrasive on top of them).

Re:One word: kids

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't ever let the PS2 stand on it's side. I learned that the hard way, when it was inevitably knocked over and the disc inside scratched beyond repair.

If the shoe fits....

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

The focus of the column seems to be on the use of mod chips as a way to circumvent game copy controls and glosses over legitimate uses

Like P2P, there certainly are "legitimate" uses. But it is still true that people here tend to "gloss over" the fact that just like P2P, people DO use mod chips to pirate games. One of the biggest reasons that claims of "fair use" and such fall on deaf ears is that it is simply a fact that mod chips and P2P are used for pirating.

Re:If the shoe fits....

[0123456]

"But it is still true that people here tend to "gloss over" the fact that just like P2P, people DO use mod chips to pirate games."

Agreed. But banning mod chips because people _can_ use them to pirate games would be like banning teapots because (according to one psycho I used to know) there are more than 23 ways to kill someone with a teapot... just another typical example of governments punishing the law-abiding in order to "do something" about criminals.

Re:If the shoe fits....

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

No, your analogy is not realistic. It's more like banning heroin. You know, there may be legitimate uses for heroin, but guess what? 90% or more of the heroin users are not "legit".

Re:If the shoe fits....

[0123456]

In what sense is using heroin not "legit", when it's just people injecting themselves with some drug they choose to use? Are you claiming that people are running around injecting heroin into others against their will?

Heh...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's funny, my original plan for getting a mod chip was to pirate all my games, and be a glorious outlaw who, ummm, saves money.

Well, seven months later, and I'm STILL BUYING ALL MY GAMES, ARRRGGGG....

I mean, I have X-Box Media Player, so I still feel a little evil (but it's practically all ogm backups of the anime I own on DVD, arrgggg!!!!), but wtf?

I mean, I HAD to buy Ninja Gaiden, and I HAD to buy DOA Volleyball, and by the time it comes around, I'm going to HAVE to buy Dead or Alive Ultimate (can you smell a Tecmo whore?) ... I bought GTA 'n VC on the PC already, so there's no use picking those up, and Beyond Good 'n Evil was like twenty goddamn dollars. Of course, I'm a student, so there's really not enough time to actually PLAY games if I wanna do well in class, but still.

Maybe I just need more Hong Kong contacts.

RANT: This got way too far...

[sploxx]

Why the hell has one to argument that there are legal uses (backup etc.) to make a good case for mod chips?

IMHO, I should be able to do what I want, with the hardware I bought. Trash it, burn in (keeping the fumes out of the environment, of course ;), stomp on it or mod it!!

Why got it that far that one now has to argument that 'there are legitimate uses'?!

Sometimes I really tend to believe that all the anti-piracy ads, acts, etc. transport subliminal mind-control messages even to /.ers... this can't be true?!

Disclaimer: I never owned a gaming console, and I am not planning to buy one.

Re:RANT: This got way too far...

[Anonymous Coward]

everyone that has a gun is a murderer, because guns can be used to kill people!!!! oh no!!!

that sounds pretty silly logic to me

Of course there are

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course there are legitimate uses for mod chips. Think about most of the ways of getting Linux running on games consoles these days. Unfortunately, with the advent of the DMCA and the Patriot act, these aren't recognised as legitimate now.
Mention of this legal tyranny was conspicuously absent from the article though ... strange

Imports?

[t_allardyce]

I know lots of people who use mod chips to play legal? import games.

Legal or not, you cannot ban mod-chips, theres simply no way. The chip itself is just a blank microprocessor (usually a PIC) which is perfectly legal, and the code which goes on it is tiny and you just cant stop a tiny file spreading around the net. As far as im concerned the moment manufacturers started putting restrictions in their consoles they decided to play by the game of technology and if they have the right to do that then you have the right to modify something you own.

Re:Imports?

[NanoGriever]

I agree about using mod chips to play import games. There are many many games in Japan that will never be brought over to the US, for whatever silly reasons. (Not being 3D enough, niche genre, etc) For example, being a Xenosaga fan, I would like to get my hands on the fan disc Xenofreaks that is coming out in April. But there is absolutely no chance that the game will be brought over to the US. The only option I have is to import. And I need a mod chip to play an import game.

Terrible research

[jvmatthe]

But how many mod chip users are interested in making honest backups? You could probably fit them all into the trunk of a Cadillac, with space left over for a spare tire.

And yet not one of them was interviewed! This guy posted on USENET asking for information and I responded in email saying that I could tell him about the fliptop modification I made to my PS2. I'd even be happy to give my name for the record because I only use it to play emulators and homebrew software. Furthermore, I only play emulators for which I own the original games. I'm uptight that way, so sue me.

I'm sure it's more sensational to talk about the modchips and pirates and oh look at all that money that the industry loses to illegal copies of games! But a real opportunity was missed here to discuss what can really be done, within the limits of the law, with a modified console.

I guess I'll just stay in the back of this Cadillac with all the other folks using a modified console for legal purposes.

Re:Terrible research

[BDaniels]

Silly boy! Why interview people or seek facts that conflict with the spin you're pushing? Next thing, you'll be saying that news should be impartial!

Re:Terrible research

[Unknown Kadath]

I used to subscribe to the Boston Globe. Hiawatha Bray, despite having a kickass name, is a lousy tech journalist. Poster child for a little learning being a dangerous thing, though he seems to genuinely want to write good articles; I dunno what's up with this one.

-Carolyn

Re:Terrible research

[sethamin]

Too bad he's still right.

Re:Terrible research

[AndroidCat]

That seems to be his standard research method. I'm talked to him on the phone. (When he was researching nanae about that Belkin router that would redirect to parental control advertising every eight hours.) He's nice enough to talk to, but I doubt he's technical at all, and he's very definitely listening for something quotable to use.

Remember the Larson Farside cartoons "What to dogs hear?"/"What do cats hear?" What does Hiawatha Bray hear? What ever sells the story to his editors.

Re:Terrible research

[Xian97]

I also modified mine with a fliptop. I am not that handy with a soldering iron so it was the best backup solution for me. My kids had scratched a $50 game so I had to have some way to back them up.

If I really just own a license for the content then give me a replacement for a reasonable price instead of having to pay the full price again. I do not mind paying a media replacement cost since it is my fault the media failed but I do not want to pay full price again. My PS2 is placed where my kids can not reach it and I have to change every disk for them but they still managed to get hold of a disk and scratch it when a guest set the box down where they could reach it after looking at it.

The PS2 media is very fragile and it doesn't take much to damage it. In this case it was just a matter of simply opening up the case and the disk fell out and bounced on the floor. It was scratched and unplayable after that. It's not like they used the disk for a frisbee, just a simple accident and $50 was out the window. I got the fliptop after that.

Re:Terrible research

[startled]

"I'm sure it's more sensational to talk about the modchips and pirates and oh look at all that money that the industry loses to illegal copies of games! But a real opportunity was missed here to discuss what can really be done, within the limits of the law, with a modified console."

Exactly. He makes a flawed assumption ("a mod chip only enhances a console by allowing it to play backed up or pirated games") so that he can set up his straw man ("no, really, we're just backing them up!").

Never mind that my modded XBox is an excellent living room media hub, and I've never once used it to run a pirated (or backed up, for that matter) game.

Re:Terrible research

[runderwo]

Furthermore, I only play emulators for which I own the original games. I'm uptight that way, so sue me.

Wishful thinking, but unless you dumped the games yourself from the original media and are never using that backup copy at the same time as the original, that doesn't make it any more legal than if you had just downloaded them without owning them. Whoever distributed them to you still committed copyright infringement on their own (since they were not authorized to make a copy and distribute it), and if you knew they weren't supposed to be sending you a copy but downloaded it anyway, that can leave you guilty of conspiracy and/or contributory infringement.

I'm not saying this is something you should not be allowed to do, but the thought that it is legal under current US laws is just a dream, so please wake up.

Re:Terrible research

[Sammy76]

I subscribe to the Globe, and I find his column terrible. I don't think I have read a single article of his and felt that I was getting a technology news story -- it always reads like an op-ed from the RIAA, MPAA or some other corporate interest. Furthermore, Hiawatha has shown himself to be clueless to the world of technology, his "review" little more than rewrites of the PR department releases. Check out some of his other stuff:

http://www.boston.com/business/technology/bray/

Have mod chip, but I don't pirate

[pestie]

I have a mod chip in my Xbox. Do I use it to steal games? No. I don't own a single illegal copy of a game. Fact is, I use the mod chip to run Xbox Media Player so I can listen to my MP3's on my stereo and play my downloaded pr0n on my big-screen TV. Now, if you want to talk about the pr0n industry's lost revenues...

Re:Have mod chip, but I don't pirate

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know much about installing a mod chip so I probably will never install one. I won't lie, if I had one, I would copy games I don't own. BUT the companies still won't be losing money because these would be games I would never buy in the first place.(Games I wanted to try but after a couple of days, would never play again, short games I can beat in 2 days)

Import

[shadowcabbit]

I was going to post something about how the primary legitimate use for a modchip would be to play imported games, but then again, a) it's not technically legitimate, because bypassing the regional lockout could be construed as a DMCA violation (don't ask me how or why), and b) since I'm looking into doing some importing (Bemani and Pop'n Music) relatively soon, I'm actually looking at a bootloader disc or "cheat" device as opposed to opening up my machine.

Many people I know who import would rather use the bootloader and not a chip. The chip's advantage is that you don't have an extra step when booting an import game; its disadvantage is that it disallows online play (if you're into that sort of thing). Trading a popular and enjoyable use of the system for ten seconds' convenience is not an acceptable trade.

Don't you know?

[Ride-My-Rocket]

http://www.chips-tv.com/

What about drug paraphenalia?

[emo boy]

Bongs enable people to smoke marijuanna. Crack pipes enable people to smoke crack. Mod chips allow people to copy games illegally. Now there might some legal uses for all of these things but the majority of people use them for illegal reasons. The laws currently assume that you will be using all of the above for illegal reasons. Is this right?? Who's to say? But i think it sure cuts down on illegal activities.

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[JonnyCalcutta]

But i think it sure cuts down on illegal activities.

So does jailing everyone.
If mod chips are illegal then only criminal will use mod chips.

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[y0gi]

Both bongs and crack pipes are actually legal (in the US) and are sold in many retail stores. Untill they are used for an illegal purpose such as smoking weed or crack which leaves a film of tar on the piece and can be tested to see if it was used for a illegal purpose. The obvious problem being how dose one test to see if a mod chip has been used for an illegal purpose, however that does not mean it should be illegal

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[jadenyk]

So do cars, fishing poles, knives, sticks, baseball bats, electricity, water and millions of other things. Does that mean we start banning everything that we have built our society around?

No. We need to police the use, not the production.

This may be close to wandering off topic, but it's really the same principal. All items have many uses - some bad, others good. If we stop making items that have bad uses, we won't have anything left.

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[Anonymous Coward]

But i think it sure cuts down on illegal activities

You're playing the same game as the guy that wrote the article. You're just making assumptions, based on anecdotal evidence.

You want to know what a drug addict does when they can't buy a bong or a pipe to smoke their drug of choice? They modify a pop can or beer can and continue to go about their merry illegal ways. Same goes for console pirates.

The mod chips aren't the problem, the pipes aren't the problem. The drugs are, the pirated games are (if these are really 'problems' to begin with is a whole other argument to be had..) Would you accept banning all forms of glass bottles, plastic bottles and anything that carries a liquid, because people use them to hold alcohol prior to drinking and driving?

It never ceases to amaze me, especially on Slashdot, the multitudes that will line up to shout "Ban what I'm opposed to!" and "Hey, they can't ban that, I'm not opposed to that!" in the same breath.

I see this every time an argument falls into the realm of drugs, guns, software piracy, music piracy, drunk driving.. Jeez. People can't see their own hipocrisy.

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[vasqzr]

It's illegal to sell/possess a lot of drug paraphenalia here in the US.

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[Anonymous Coward]

> "When life gives you crap...make craponade"

I think the term would be compost tea.

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[tekunokurato]

That's bullshit. Find the law. Maybe there are some state laws, but none where I come from.

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[sqlrob]

Tell that to Tommy Chong

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[Ellis D. Tripp]

Find the law? OK , how about 21 CFR sec. 863? Text available at: http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/law/law_fed_pa raphernalia.shtml

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[IWorkForMorons]

Bongs enable people to smoke marijuanna.

Man...you must be smoking pretty strong stuff to believe that. First off...BONG HITS ARE NOT ILLEGAL! What could be illegal is what's in the bowl. But the actual device itself isn't. At least in some part of the US and most of Canada. There were some strange incidents, like the owner of Chills Cigarette Papers being arrested for "manufacturing drug paraphernalia." And then there was the arrest of Tommy Chong. Christ...who couldn't see THAT one coming. But still, is it necessary? No...pipes and papers could be used for many other things...

The other thing is, and I know this from great experience, you don't need a bong to smoke. Or at least a store-bought bong. Bongs can be made out of a great number of things, all of which look inconspicuous. Besides that, you can use papers to roll a joint; use a regular tobacco pipe; set it on fire and put a bottle with the bottom cut off over it; create a lung with a pop bottle, some tape, an empty bread bag, and a piece of tin foil; you could make a gravity bong with a pop bottle, a bucket, and a piece of tin foil...I could go on, but you get the point. There are a great number of ways to smoke pot. And many don't even require walking into a store...

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[Anonymous Cow herd]

heh. But see, the loophole is, it's not drug paraphenalia until it's been used. The ruling here (and in other states) is that you can't determine the intent of the purchaser, so you can't take someone to court based on that. However, if the cops find your bong/crack pipe with residue on it, it's legally paraphenalia, since it's obvious that it's been used for consuming illegal narcotics.

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[tekunokurato]

Er, right on then. Jolly good. Now I'm confused as to why it's all so readily available in stores. I guess the act's only 1999; maybe I'm just thinking historically?

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[dnoyeb]

My sister received a bong at the hospital last weekend. An asthma bong. Its a normal inhaler, but with a BONG attached to it because it, "delivers more medecine."

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[maddskillz]

Was it the medical skull bong, or medical wizzard bong?

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[Ellis D. Tripp]

Lack of enforcement probably has to do with lack of law enforcement resources, along with the vague "tobacco use" disclaimer in the federal statute. Head shop owners ALWAYS have a "for tobacco or legal herb use only" sign conspicuously posted, and generally will eject people who ask for the prohibited "bongs" rather than the permissible "water pipes". A strict reading of the federal law renders these things illegal, regardless of the disclaimer, but apparently the feds are content (for the time being) with busting ONLINE pipe sellers rather than their "brick and mortar" counterparts. Maybe when they get done arresting cancer patients and the like, they can start going after the menace of the "bong merchants"? Maybe the fact that the stores pay local taxes, etc. keep them safe from local cops?

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uummmm, federal law only applies to interstate trade, millitary reservations, territories and the district of columbia, duffus.

Unless you cross a state border with it, then federal law does not apply, except in murder, kidnapping and counterfitting cases.

This is constitution 101.

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[DjMd]

Uhhh dude, it's not a Bong, it's a spacer
and it doesn't deliver more medicine, it makes for smaller particles which will go further into the lung (delivery verses dosage, but now I'm spliting hairs)

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[Shakrai]

Uummmm, federal law only applies to interstate trade, millitary reservations, territories and the district of columbia, duffus.

And Post Offices. Don't beilive me? Try robbing one.

Unless you cross a state border with it, then federal law does not apply, except in murder, kidnapping and counterfitting cases.

Murder? I thought murder was a state jurisdiction unless it happens on Federal property (post office) or to a Federal employee (mailman or FBI agent engaged in his or her official duties). Of course IANAL.

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[I(rispee_I(reme]

Please post photos!

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[jadenyk]

guns, on the other hand, have only one purpose and that is to incur violent destruction.

So similar to a fishing pole.

But, to try to get in the same vicinity of the original topic, mod chips are not made only for illegal purposes. So really, it is more like a car than a gun. You can do illegal things with it, but does that mean that's the only thing you can do with it? And even further, should it be made illegal because some people (even the majority) do illegal things with it?

If so, I'd like to see some results of a survey on the percentage of drivers who speed. Same concept.

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[xMac]

no, i don't believe mod chips should be made completely illegal. i own one myself. but i hate the viewpoint that something (that majority of users use to do illegal things) is 100% legit just because it has some legal use.

i would feel much better if we acknowledged the fact it is rampantly being used for illegal purposes. (and that some thing is wrong with that...) then discuss ways to compromise on the capability of mod chips so that while legal use may be somewhat crippled, it would greatly reduce the illegal use. call me socialist or whatever but i believe in some compromise of the "right to mod what we own" if it would bring down piracy. and this is not about what's right and what's wrong, or whether or not piracy actually does any harm. it's just my morals and i feel piracy is "wrong" even if it does no harm.

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[jadenyk]

See, I feel that penalizing the car manufacturer because most drivers speed is foolish. I think that it's much more productive to find the person speeding, pull him over and give him a ticket. If it's a repeat offense, the penalty gets larger until the right to drive has been taken away.

Similar to this industry, why penalize the mod manufacturer, or the user of mod chips who doesn't use them for illegal purposes? It's the behaviour that needs fixing, not the product. While I don't share your views of piracy, (another discussion, another time) I feel that this isn't an action against piracy, it's an action against freedom.

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[Anonymous Coward]

My stepfather (a GP, hence the AC) wrote into the Lancet about 9 years ago with a story regarding the large number of spacers he'd been prescribing, and on asking one patient after it was her third one that year, how she managed to go through so many.

And yes, it was being used for non prescribed medication :)

And boy, did it work well :D

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[Anonymous Coward]

In New Zealand, with simaler laws, we now cannot buy bongs, instead aerated flower vases, no more pipes, they are "puzzles".

Plus they sell legitimate smoking herbs, which are often great for stretching weed in tight times. Or for when some sticky bordar hash turns up :)

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[xMac]

how about crippling the car so the max is 80 mph?

i do see your point though. and the discussion about piracy is, as you had said, another time, another topic.

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[jadenyk]

I can still do 80 in a 30. Also, what if I like to find a drag strip and legally race my car?

I see your point as well and really, there's no "good" answer. I think both sides have too many problems. You can't stop the hardware side just because there's some people doing bad things - it takes away the possibility for good things. At the same time, it's very expensive and time consuming to try to catch the people doing bad things.

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[HexRei]

thank god we're stopping all those awful pot-smokers from smoking weed in their own homes. Think of all the evil that could come of that.

Re:What about drug paraphenalia?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you feel you have the right to impose your sense of right and wrong on others if it in fact does no harm?

If it does cause harm, then it's a different discussion, but I'm specifically addressing the last part of your statement.

Further, IF piracy is doing no harm, then it is increasing the total amount of information, the total resources available to each person, and thus could well even be viewed as "right", as those who wrote the US Constitution recognized when they said that copyright can only last "for a limitted time."

Legitimate Users a very SMALL minority

[avail]

I know a lot of people with modded X-Boxes and I can say that among everyone, only one person uses the modded x-box to watch movies or play media. Of course, he downloads the movies off eMule, and he also pirates every single game he plays. Everyone else I know pirates the games. I am the only person I know who actually buys the games. I would like to mod my xbox to play around with it, but I know if I do it I would just pirate games and that stops me since I believe that doing so is theft (what can I say, I was raised with morals).

Who honestly knows someone that uses modding for anything other than pirating games or watching pirated movies? Don't just surmise that it's possible, think if you know people who are doing it.

Yawn

[TheCarp]

Does it really matter?

I have noticed a trend lately. People see something that they effectivly can't stop, that is people modifying the hardware THAT THEY BOUGHT AND PAID FOR. To get around restrictions that were built into it.

Now some people want to ask "Does this have a legitimate use?". Can it possibly matter? They arn't making WMDs here, they are modifying some game hardware that they bought and paid for, they are modifying their own property.

I think it absolutly audacious that restrictions of any sort were artificially built into these products for any reason other than operator safety. Even more so that someone would question whether modification of ones own property has "legitimate use".

The most fundamental legitimate use of a mod chip is "because I wanted to". End of story.

-Steve

Re:Yawn

[Haileri$]

Yawn Yawn the same stuff is peddled out time and timr again, and yes you are right. But don't you understand that whilst it might be the good ole US of A way to allow freedom of speech and allow anybody to do anything that they own, then when it severely affects the business model of that product it might be a bad idea in the long run? If I were selling consoles I'd say a 2 fingered f**k it and watch you all play with yourselves instead (not literally though!) :)

Re:Yawn

[TheCarp]

Well maybe its bad to base a buisness model on controlling conditions that you can't ever hope to control? Ooh just maybe thats the case.

I am just so tired of hearing apologists for major multinational corperations whining because their buisness model has a major weakness and they want to blame that weakness on their customers rather than realising that thats just the way the world works and that they can't have their cake and eat it too.

"You can't stop the free movements of a free people".

-Steve

Re:Yawn

[Frennzy]

Right...and because everyone *can* go out and mod their Honda Civic to beat Mustang in the 1/4 mile (for far less money than the Mustang), Ford went out of business.

Wait...no they didn't.

yup, yup, yup.

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

Ohhhhh! Ooooooo! You'll get modded down! How dare you point out an obvious truth that goes against the Slashdot Party Line!

I would bet that more than 75% of the P2P users out there have LOADS of stuff that is not "fair use". But people here tend to try to "justify" it, ignoring the fact that they are only fooling themselves.

Modded Xbox.

[Devir]

I modded my Xbox when I learned of the xodus mod chip a year back. Today I use the Xbox as a media center. I rip MP3's from my CD collection, store them to the bigger hard drive and mix em up for different occasions (EX: house party, mood music... ) also I copy the games I bought to the HDD so I don't need to go through the hassle of swapping disks if I want to play Ninja Gaiden, Prince of Persia and then some other random game. They're there and quickly acesible to me without worry of scratching the original disk (this is great for people with kids who manhandle CD's) I also use the Xbox to store and play the instructional video's from 3DBuzz.com. Why play on a 21" monitor when you can play them on the 40" plasma screen? There are loads of Legit uses for the modded Xbox.

Arrrgh

[Ikyaat]

Well pirates we may be but if I come across a game I truly enjoy I buy the legit version, 90% of the time its purely for the manual. After the 3rd copy of tekken tag that died on me in 1 year I have a hard time feeling guilty about copied games.

Real reasons for mod chips

[emtboy9]

First off, why is it never mentioned that there has been a significant increase in video game RENTALS in the last few years as more and more video stores (esp the Mom&Pop rental stores) start stocking more and more games? Hell, why should I pay 50+ for a game for my PS2 that I can rent for 5 days for 4.95? I usually have the games I play beat in under 10 days, so for 10 bucks, I get the game, get the play, and dont get stuck with a disk I dont want afterwards.

As for Mod chips, I dont have a modded PS2 or XBox yet, but if I did, the sole reason would be to play imports from Japan. There are some pretty slick games in Japan that will never make it to market here simply because of the cultural differences. So what choice do I have? Move to Japan, or a Mod chip... since technically, it is illegal for me to go to Japan, buy a PS2, XBox, or GameCube, then bring it back into the country with assorted games.

Maybe if game companies, like the DVDCCA would get their heads out of their arses for a bit, and realize that the very idea of region coding is stupid, and that gamers are getting tired of paying 50+ per game, for games that are NOT that expensive to design anymore, lower the prices and get rid of the stupid region coding crap.

I mean, if a new game comes out, that is truely new, with a new engine, new graphics, etc, then yeah, its probably worth 50 bucks or so. But a sequal, or a sequal to a sequal, running on the same base code that the original did, with the only real changes being maps, images and avatars, is NOT worth 50 bucks.

I certainly would not pay new car price to get my old car re-painted, so why should I pay new game price to get my old game re-mapped?

Re:Real reasons for mod chips

[Wolfier]

>since technically, it is illegal for me to go to
>Japan, buy a PS2, XBox, or GameCube, then bring
>it back into the country with assorted games.

Can you elaborate this a bit and tell us which country you live in?

I don't see the illegality. People buy from foreign retailers all the time.

Re:Real reasons for mod chips

[tekunokurato]

ha, ironically enough if they included the increase in rentals as part of the equation they'd end up using it as 'evidence' that more people are modding and copyring instead of buying.

Re:Real reasons for mod chips

[greenskyx]

"why is it never mentioned that there has been a significant increase in video game RENTALS" I think they ignore the fact that some games are over priced. I find it crazy to spend $50 on console games... Some games like Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance (I & II) are fun, but can be beat in one or two rental periods ($12 where I'm at for 10 days). That's WAY less than $50. Other games I just wait a few months till they are ~$20-$30 and get them used.

Re:Real reasons for mod chips

[DroopyStonx]

Agreed.

A good example would be Metal Gear Solid 2. It was a good game and all, but it took 8-9 hours to go through the FIRST time. That's not worth $50 at all.

...then they come out with MGS2: Substance. So, they want me to pay another $50 so I can... skateboard as Snake? Right...

What about re-hashes of old games? Super Mario Advance 4 was, what, Super Mario 3 on NES? In fact, if I recall, I actually purchased that game twice: Super Mario 3 (the original) and a 2nd time for the SNES. Why should I pay another $40 just to play the SAME game on a different platform? Ridiculous.

I don't see myself purchasing GTA: San Andreas when it comes out just for the fact it's more or less an expansion pack like Vice City was. An expansion pack they charge $50 for. Crazy! It's the *same* engine used in the first two with VERY minor tweaks here and there. Sorry, but it's not THAT hard to come up with the story and different scenarios. I felt kinda ripped off w/ Vice City. I probably woulda paid $25 for it.. MAYBE $30. The 3rd time around, looks like I'll be copying it instead.

Same applies with the THPS series. Reeeeeeehash!

Re:Real reasons for mod chips

[Anonymous Coward]

USD 50? Is that all? In Britain console games typically cost GBP 39.99 (that's USD 73.61) and in the past have cost GBP 50 (USD 92.04) or even GBP 60 (that's a massive USD 110.45)!

Re:Real reasons for mod chips

[AnyNoMouse]

I mean, if a new game comes out, that is truely new, with a new engine, new graphics, etc, then yeah, its probably worth 50 bucks or so. But a sequal, or a sequal to a sequal, running on the same base code that the original did, with the only real changes being maps, images and avatars, is NOT worth 50 bucks.

Heh. I play the "sale game." I rarely, if ever, buy games when they first come out. I wait until they hit $30 if I'm really interested (and amazingly many games can be purchased for that amount in the first two weeks of release like UT2004 and Battlefield Vietnam). If I'm interested, but not dying to play, I wait for the $20 bin.

I've saved a lot of dough on PC and XBox games with this policy and I end up playing games longer because I'm not buying a crapload of games all the time.

Of course, I occasionally splurge and buy games at $40 (Ninja Gaiden), but I haven't paid $50 for a game in quite some time. It just takes a bit of self control.

Re:Real reasons for mod chips

[CuCullin]

Well one point there too, is what about used games? Personally, I own an N64, Gamecube, XBox, and PS1. The PS1 is modded, so I could play some import DBZ games that I picked up from a somewhat local Korean flea market (I'm your typical caucasian... so I stand out... but they love me, good ppls :)..). Just to note, I still play them here and there, which is why I bought the game.

Also, I'm a frequent visitor to GameStop... I go there with a few games I've beaten (maybe several times over) and am now bored of, trade them in, pick out a few titles off the used rack, and go home to beat those. Some games I like and can play over and over... those ones I keep. The others, I beat and take back to GameStop to trade in. For me, since I don't have an abundance of gameplay time, this comes out cheaper than renting.

Now, if I was interested in import titles, I'd mod anything I have. It just so happens I haven't exhausted the supply of the US games available just yet, and haven't seen an import Ijust had to have, so I have not modded yet... but I will. I don't back up, because I usually don't keep games for all that long. I also have never played an illegal copy of anything on any console that I own.... but I have screwed with my hardware (including controllers). I bought it, and I'll do with it what I like.

Re:Real reasons for mod chips

[Anonymous Coward]

Games aren't expensive to design anymore? No, they're just getting more expensive to make on almost a daily basis. Imagine if you owned a company, had spent a few million on your latest product and then a bunch of pikey losers just rip you off. Sounds pretty crappy eh?

Oh, and expansion packs, they use previously built code and stuff, so they must be cheap to make.

Why do I get the feeling you've never worked in the games industry? Oh, maybe it's because you blatantly don't have a clue about having to pay programmers, artists, designers, QA staff, the huge cut publishers and retailers take, in fact, you don't have a clue how anything works between concept and shipping. Go do some research, then have a damn good think about where your $50 is going.

Re:Real reasons for mod chips

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like someone who is trying to justify their future actions, the post sounded like they were considering getting a mod chip.

One example would be the line about how they shouldn't charge for a sequal usuing ... *shock* reused code and images!

Re:Real reasons for mod chips

[Anonymous Coward]

Because "re-mapping" is the most expensive part of game production.

Re:Real reasons for mod chips

[mr.capaneus]

This is my third post on this subject but I am getting pretty exasperated with some of these responses. The fact of the matter is that in the U.S. it is most definitely NOT illegal to buy something in Japan and bring it to the U.S. You need to declare it to customs and might have to pay an import duty or something. You will not have a warranty in the U.S. but you are not breaking any laws by owning a Japanese GC and games. I think what has happened is that the propaganda has really gotten into the consumers head and many now believe that what some companies wish in their most fervent dreams were illegal is, in fact, ileegal. This is not true but if enough people, like the grandparent poster, believe it then it may as well be. Maybe I'm just being naive but I had no idea that people were so willing to bend over and take it from industry.

Re:Real reasons for mod chips

[scabb]

You don't HAVE to play these games again. You can simply "refuse" to purchase them and instead flutter your money away on dairy-related products, if that is your wish. It's your own fault if you paid to play the same game twice, and not that of the kind and undoubtedly warmhearted people who sold it to you.

As for 8-9 hours of gameplay not being worth $50 - well, that all depends. If the gameplay is up to scratch, it can easily RIVAL any movie, and you'll want to replay the game. DVDs are $20 and offer, what - 2-4 hours of entertainment? I'd say that in comparison, both mediums offer a similar amount of "bang" for your buck. Remember, in yonder day games were knocked together by teams of 3 or 4 and still sold at that same high price - sure, they offered INFINITY HOURS entertainment in some cases, but this generally involved the little pixelly things moving faster, and increasing in number, and moving FASTER STILL.

Re:Real reasons for mod chips

[DroopyStonx]

I know I don't HAVE to purchase them, and I don't. That's why I copy them. I don't buy DVDs either for the same reason they keep trying to re-sell movies under the "Ultra Special Edition" scheme. I just think it's a somewhat valid reason why copying doesn't exactly hurt them.

But there are plenty of people who DO shell out cash for the same games (and DVDs) they purchased in the past. I feel that "sales lost" because I copy are offset by those who DO purchase twice. I already purchased MGS2, so why should I purchase MGS2:Substance if I wanna check out the extras?

Renting you say? Great! Off to Blockbuster to rent it for $4.99. Blockbuster already paid quite a hefty fee for the game to be able to make profit from renting to people. I rent the game, keep it for 4-5 days, and .. chances are I'll beat it (even if it wasn't a game I already beat/owned). Now, if I returned it never to play it again, how's it different if I copy it?

There's definitely a lot of arguments FOR the industry losing money out to those who mod.. but honestly, they don't lose much for the reasons mentioned above.

Re:Real reasons for mod chips

[scabb]

I wasn't arguing against copyright theft, I was just making general comments. In fact, I love ripping off faceless corporations! I also love owning my own SHINY CASES with instruction manuals inside, and I imagine that they APPRECIATE in value as every day goes by. I can only afford so many, though - so I only BUY games developed and published by the likes EA. FIFA 2001, 2002, 2003 - I have them all. I COPY any that have been developed by tiny outfits and published by tiny outlets. I usually make several copies to give to my friends.

Actually, I do have some morals, too many to name. If I'm going to bootleg a game, I make sure that it's already sold in the trillions, and I also make sure that I don't really want to buy it.

Gun analogy

[BitRandom]

So if its mine then I should be able to take a semi-auto weapon and modify it so that it fires full auto? As long as I don't "use" it then that's ok?

I think the argument should be focused on whether what they claim is illegal should be illegal - If I want to make backups thats fair use - If I want to pirate that illegal.

Simply arguing that I own it misses the more important issue.

Re:Gun analogy

[Doesn't_Comment_Code]

I don't like the gun analogy because, like the Nazi analogy and many others, it brings a lot of emotion that is unrelated to the main point. To make your analogy match more fully, there would be many perfectly legitimate uses for an automatic weapon, as there are for a processor and electronic hardware like a modded XBox.

And, yes, I think most can agree that the damage is in the act of killing with the automatic weapon, not in the posession the weapon.

Re:Gun analogy

[BitRandom]

Good point - What I was trying to do is to highlight the fact that arguing over what I can do to something that I own misses the big issue which is defining what is 'fair use'. Restricting rights is really the issue with the more significant part being about what I can do that has overwhelmingly good reasons (ie backup, timeshift, different replay devices, etc). If you think about it, if making backups wasn't a violation then the arguments against mod chips would be less valid.

Re:Gun analogy

[Doesn't_Comment_Code]

I agree. The right to make backups should be protected (you can currently deny it to a consumer via the DMCA). I wouldn't mind so much not being able to back up a CD if the company would ship a replacement for cost. But I don't see that happenning any time soon.

Re:Gun analogy

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't like the gun analogy because, like the Nazi analogy and many others, it brings a lot of emotion that is unrelated to the main point.

I also agree, but you shouldn't have expanded the main point by saying:

Modifying something you own is NOT illegal.

Which we all should agree is a false statement.

Re:Gun analogy

[C32]

Well the statement wouldn't be false if congress didn't pass all kinds of special case laws against the pet hate of the month..

Re:Gun analogy

[balthan]

So if its mine then I should be able to take a semi-auto weapon and modify it so that it fires full auto?

According to the constitution? Yes. The 2nd Amendment makes no distinction between semi and fully automatic.

Re:Gun analogy

[Alsee]

The 2nd Amendment makes no distinction between semi and fully automatic.

Which is why I'm kinda stuck in the middle on the gun issue. By that logic I have the right to keep and bear shoulder-launched nuclear arms too.

-

Re:Gun analogy

[balthan]

Then you amend the constitution instead of just ignoring the parts you don't like.

xbox-linux and mythtv

[KJE]

I finally put my mod chip to good use with GentooX and mythTV on my xbox. It acts as a great front end. And yes, there is an easier mythtv only xbox-linux distro here

Give me a break. They're pirates.

[Anonymous Coward]

They're either modding their console so they can pirate games on it, or they're modding their consoles so that they can view and listen to pirated media on it, or both. I'm all for people being able to modify things they buy, but give me a break.

I'd bet you anything that most of the people who modded their consoles telling themselves they were just doing it so they could code on it or whatever excuse they thought of at the time have at least one pirated game in their collection.

Hardware licenses?

[Ride-My-Rocket]

Isn't it within the buyer's rights to mod their console as they please? Yes, it has some consequences -- you void the warranty, and you're only allowed to make backups of your existing games for archival purposes. And if you choose to pirate games, you're opening yourself up to prosecution under copyright laws, as it pertains to the software, not hardware.

Keeping all of that in mind, you still own the hardware -- it's yours to do with as you please. Just because you mod it doesn't mean you're using it for piracy, even if that is the tendency. The same kind of thing could be said about P2P network file sharing...........

duh

[Mr_Silver]

Are the majority of mod chip users 'pirates' or are they legitimate users with legitimate applications for the modifications that Bray hasn't considered?

I think we are wearing rose coloured tinted specs again.

Please bear in mind when you read the 40 comments about how X only uses his chipped PS2 for development and how Y only uses his to backup games that the kids trash that the people on Slashdot are not indicative of the whole world.

In other words, yes, 99% of people who purchase a mod-chip do so to pirate games and yes, the 1% who don't pirate are probably the 40 posting to Slashdot.

Babies getting in the way of bathwater disposal

[HTH NE1]

But how many mod chip users are interested in making honest backups? You could probably fit them all into the trunk of a Cadillac, with space left over for a spare tire.

Nice. Say making backups is fine, but suggest you'd like to see those that do it tossed into the trunk of a Cadillac, with the implied dumping them in the river with cement overshoes, or burial in the forest, or other methods of "disappearance" that brings to mind. Shows how he feels about the legitimate uses.

Even unvoiced, talking about fitting people into the trunk of a Cadillac is violent imagery. It could be about any opposing minority population you'd like removed.

And why? Because they get in the way of demonizing the whole shebang, so let's get them out of the way now. Time to throw out the bathwater, nevermind the baby.

Re:Babies getting in the way of bathwater disposal

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, wow. I don't even know how to respond to something so delusional, but here goes.

He didn't say he'd like to see them thrown into the trunk of a Cadillac, nor did he imply in any way that they would be killed. He only suggested they'd fit, and that was simply hyperbole. He was suggesting that the number of people who used mod chips for only legal purposes is so tiny that they could all fit in the trunk of a large car. He could have said they'd fit in a closet, a stadium restroom stall, or the case of an old IBM minicomputer, and it would have meant the same thing. For best effect, he chose an object that would be familiar to most of his readers. It doesn't do any good for me to say they'd fit inside a boozlequox if you don't know what a boozlequox is, after all, and if he just said "a box 5'x2'x3' in size" it would have been dull and dry. His point was that there were too few legitimate users of mod chips to bother considering. I don't know if that's true, but he certainly doesn't say that he wishes them harmed.

The fact that the wording he used brings to your mind images of murder speaks about your own twisted mind, not his. You're either trolling, or the men in white coats are looking for you.

Re:Babies getting in the way of bathwater disposal

[HTH NE1]

"Man, those picketers sure are annoying. Sure, these may have legitimate complaints, but I really don't like unionized workers."

"Ya know, I bet I could fits them all in da trunk of my Caddy, boss."
__

As you say, he could have used a different analogy: a phone booth, a Volkswagon Beetle, or a restroom stall. Something more whimsical than ominous. Of all the comparisons he could have used, the trunk of a Cadillac isn't a good choice.

And I'm not the only one to note the negative overtones of the comparison. While some suggest its correlation to kidnapping (esp. children), those of us who are older know of the value of a large trunk for clandestine corpse disposal ahead of its value for sneaking into a drive-in movie or the comfortable concealment of a vampire cop in daytime.

Don't forget region protection

[danaris]

The other important legitimate reason to have a modchip is to play games from a different region. I have Final Fantasy X, but I hate the people doing the voices (except for a couple of them). I've found a few clips online of the Japanese version, and I love the voices there. I want to buy--legally, from Square--the Japanese version, so I can play it through with the original voices. But I can't play it on my US PS2 without a modchip. Thus, I intend to get a modchip.

I don't have any backups (though, once I have a modchip, I might make some, for exactly the reasons you state), and never plan to get PS2 games illegally. I just want to play games from Japan. If there were a modchip that allowed me to play legal imports, but not backup games, I'd get it.

There is, so far as I can tell, no possible legal argument against this, unless they take the DMCA and twist it even farther than the printer manufacturers have. Having bought the original media, why can I not access it? Heck, I'll even wait until the game comes out in the US (if there are plans to) before buying it, so they don't even have that stupid argument!

I want to give them my money, but Sony won't let me.

Dan Aris

Re:Don't forget region protection

[shut_up_man]

Exactly! I have absolutely no problem with the idea of modchips that allow me to play legal games from another "region zone". It goes beyond wanting to play imports though, as I've bought games when I lived in London, Australia and Canada. It's ridiculous that I can't play my own games that I bought legally outside my zone.

This is a the same problem that I have with DVDs, too... so unless a company is selling a multi-region DVD player, they don't get any of my money.

Re:Don't forget region protection

[tekunokurato]

Actually, that's not (technically, though I wish it was) a legitimate reason. If a company wants to localize the distribution of their content, it's illegal for you to circumvent it.

Re:Don't forget region protection

[gruntled]

Hmm. With mod-chip installation and what-not hovering at about $100 bucks (obviously you save quite a bit if you do it yourself) it seems you resolve that issue legally by simply purchasing a machine designed for a different market for just a bit more money. For instance, years ago I bought a Japanese PS2. (I'm not recommending this as a solution; just wanted to point out that, from the retailers perspective, this is really just a money issue).

Re:Don't forget region protection

[bdaspud]

I had a PS2 from the UK. I moved to the states but didn't want to get rid of my huge investment in legally owned games. So I invested in a MOD chip (and an NTSC/PAL compatible TV) hence saving my investment. It is a shame that the legitimate users are being steam rolled by the illegal use for such a practical device as a MOD Chip.

Re:Don't forget region protection

[Frizzle Fry]

What about NTSC vs. PAL (or whatever they use in Japan)? Do Japanese, American and European consoles all work fine on the tv's in all three markets? I imagine at the least you need a converter for the power cord, but that seems easy.

Re:Don't forget region protection

[gruntled]

No problems with current/power or TV display (including Japanese DVDs) running a Japanese PS2 here in the states. At least none for me. I have no idea if this is "bad" for the TV or the PS2.

Re:Don't forget region protection

[poot_rootbeer]

If there were a modchip that allowed me to play legal imports, but not backup games, I'd get it.

You could always buy an import console to put alongside your domestic model, and use THAT to play import games.

You won't so that? Why not?

Re:Don't forget region protection

[ymgve]

You could always buy an import console to put alongside your domestic model, and use THAT to play import games.

You won't so that? Why not?

Because I already have a console, and a modchip costs a fraction of the sum it would cost to import a new one.

Yeah I do so?

[Cr3d3nd0]

Ok so lets be honest for a second. Yes I use P2P to download music, usenet to downlad games and movies, and my xbox has a mod chip in it so I can play ripped versions of games. So? I also own more CD's than any of my "legit" friends. 90% of the games I owned illegally that I played more than a few rounds of I own legally. See I'm one of the MAJORITY of pirates that only buys something if he enjoys it. In fact I refuse to buy an album if I haven't downloaded the tracks and decided I like the majority of the songs. I wont buy a game unless I enjoyed the game enough with a few friends at a lan party to get a copy and play online. Does the industry loose money off me? Only if they make a crappy game, or try to sell me a CD for 20 bucks that has two songs worth listening to. On the other hand I also have more stuff that no one has heard of (ever heard of the band Maktub on the Top 40? what about the Apperitions?) It comes down to this. If I get an illegal copy of something its because I either a) can't obtain it legaly (for instance episodes of my favorite shows that don't have a DVD release) b) want to try the WHOLE product, not some little sample that gives no idea what the final product is like. or c) sample something that no one has heard of before. Ultimately I only buy things I think are worth the price charged.

Sounds like they've been talking to the RIAA

[Shirov]

This is unfortunately more of the same crap we have been hearing from the music folks. "Piracy hurt sales!!" I wonder what the next move is?

I do have a few questions though. How the hell can you even measure this? Really. If piracy is illegal, how do you count up the people doing the piracy.

Perhaps game sales are down because like the music the industry, most of the products suck...

Hold it wait, that could never be the reason... It must be something else...

Greedy fuckers, the lot of em!

--Ryan

I have only one thing to say...

[Anonymous Coward]

Arrrrrrrrr.

/me adjusts eyepatch, and click "Post Anonymously"

MOD Chips = More Console Sales

[IWishIWasSmart]

Do you know what made PS1 so popular? Mod Chips!
Cheap Games.

MOD Chips are great. If they decide to start selling games for $25 instead of $50 I would buy more games.

I Have a white PS2 w/ GT4 from HK

Mod-chips = P2P

[coene]

The modding scene is much like the P2P scene, of course there are a few legit users who want to, say, run Linux on their Xbox, use their PS2 as a media center (to play Divx/Xvid/SVCD movies) or they want to use Kazaa lite or eMule to download the music of an independant artist who puts their music out there for legal consumption.

Of course, this isn't the norm. If I had to guess, I'd say that 98% of P2P/Mod-chip users are there to get/play copyrighted works.

The rest may do legal things with them, but face it - if the other 98% weren't there, there would be no P2P, and there would be no Mod-chip.

When a company looks to sell a mod-chip, they don't advertise "RUN LINUX ON YOUR XBOX" or "PLAY YOUR HOME ENCODED AND PERFECTLY LEGAL DIVX DVD RIPS ON YOUR PS2".

Of course not, they advertise "PLAY BACKUPS AND IMPORTS" and "GET ANY GAME ONLINE!". Backups = Pirated ISO images (downloaded or hard-copied), everyone knows it, it's their safe word.

I'm as liberal as the next guy, and I even use the GC/PSO/BBA trick to play old NES ROM's on my Gamecube. Mod-chips and P2P, they are and should definitely remain legal - they, by themselves, don't break the laws. However - we all know that the people who use them do, in fact the overwhelming majority of them do.

The author of this article shouldn't be criticized for stating the plain truth that mod-chips are overwhelmingly used by pirates. Additionally, with how easy they are to install now, and how cheap they are, and with the wide acceptance of P2P, IRC fileshares and broadband - I can understand that game developers may not realize profits from these pirates, where they would have before.

Legitimate?

[supergerwalk]

1) Stickin' it to the man! 2) Because you can. 3) It's nobody's business but yours.

Region lockout

[Anonymous Coward]

I also have gotten my playstation, dreamcast, and saturn modded to play japanese games as well. Some of the best games never get translated into english. For me, if those stupid game companies, and DVD player companies just made their machines play stuff from any region, I wouldn't be opening them up and putting in mod chips.

The Truth About Mod Chips

[Anonymous Coward]

Lard is king. From the parachute in the telephone, weekly tin cans weep nails of your keyboard. Satin food sits rolling cannon tonight. Great pinholes flatten beach sand, while dogs reach tinkle. Team orange peal knows of hawking joke spot. Lipstick particle dancers reach reliable orgasm spot. Can balloons factor gesticulation? Peanuts only float but can we simmer in motherboards? Sheets of satellites take garbage trucks internally while Jesus dances. Sometimes we cash burette pins on the week today, but who reaches case is not Yoruba Linda.

Well then!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a good thing I used the TSOP bios flashing method rather than a modchip to pirate games on my Xbox!

A whole different reason for modchips

[VernonNemitz]

While I do understand that modchips can allow many unanticipated things to be done with a game console, it was my impression that a major purpose of modding a console was to "free" its extremely cheap computing power for other purposes than games. That is, we know the consoles are sold at a loss, but that is the manufacturer's choice. Sometimes I think that their claims of modding to mis-use consoles (for piracy) is just a "cover story" to keep people from realizing that they can get a powerful computer CHEAP, just by replacing the chips that restrict it to console-only use.

Hiawatha Bray!

[Chris Tucker]

The name says it all.

You just KNOW that he's the illegitimate offspring of a couple of smelly hippies. He was, I'm sure, born in some wretched commune and had the crap beaten out of him by all the kids at school, even the geeks.

So now, in the classic "rebel against the parents" reaction, he's a big shot (in his own mind, maybe) newspaper columnist who essentially knows squat about the technology he writes about, and just loves to "stick it" to Mom and Dad by kissing Bill Gates' ass as often as possible in his GLOBE column.

"Take THAT, Mom & Dad! I live in a house, not a yurt, and I have electricity and indoor plumbing and computers and I vote Republican, too!"

Bray is a joke. All the Mac geeks I know, and quite a few of the Windows geeks, too, laugh at Bray and his moronic sputterings.

In the strictest sense, yes, they are pirates

[LordZardoz]

Not because they are ripping off XBox or PS2 games. Mostly because everyone I know who has modded their XBox uses it to play MAME, NES, or SNES emulated games.

But while the occasional modder does copy X-Box games, most are not using their XBox in a way that would deprive Microsoft of revenue. Its not like Microsoft can extract any profit from MAME anyway.

END COMMUNICATION

Re:In the strictest sense, yes, they are pirates

[DroopyStonx]

Nintendo no longer makes profit from NES/SNES, so I wouldn't exactly call playing an NES/SNES emulator "pirating".

By all means, point me to a store that sells SNES games where NINTENDO makes a profit.

Re:In the strictest sense, yes, they are pirates

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you suggesting that a company should only get money for goods if they will make a profit?

You're funny. :D

Re:In the strictest sense, yes, they are pirates

[DroopyStonx]

Uh, I'm suggesting that playing SNES/NES roms isn't hurting Nintendo as they no longer make a profit from those games.

Quite funny yourself there, kiddo.

Re:In the strictest sense, yes, they are pirates

[gozar]

Nintendo no longer makes profit from NES/SNES, so I wouldn't exactly call playing an NES/SNES emulator "pirating".

By all means, point me to a store that sells SNES games where NINTENDO makes a profit.

Well, to be totally facetious, it appears that Nintendo is re-releasing every SNES game as a Gameboy Advance game, so they are still profiting off of these old games. (And they plan on releasing NES games soon, such as Excitebike and Legend of Zelda).

Have you SEEN the size of a Cadillac's Trunk...

[Anonymous Coward]

You can fit a lot of bodies in the trunk with room to spare for a shovel and some lye. By the way get a pink one so that the cops just think you work for Mary Kay.

Why Mod?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think if modding your box was something that was easy, quick, public, and considered a legitimate upgrade at your local game dealer, you'd see much more legitimate usage. But it's a poorly-kept secret, often involves risk to your $200-$300 appliance, and is a pain in the butt that few people will bother to do. Those who do are usually either pirates, or hardcore gamers who want to get around the region restrictions and play games not available in their own countries. Maybe there are some people who've paid $20 once too often to get a used replacement disc.

Re:Sure...(Let's outlaw everything.)

[gosand]

Yeah, sure, most modchippers are doing it for perfectly legitimate purposes, just like most Kazaa users are sharing music files from bands that have authorized it.

Most drivers go over the speed limit in their cars. Yet cars are still legal. Cars are used in homocides every day, yet cars are still legal. Guns are used to commit crimes, yet guns are still legal in the US. Alcohol is consumed by underage people, yet it is still legal in this country.

If you want to outlaw something because it has illegal uses, let's be fair across the board.

Having said that, I think that the *main* users of mod chips use them to pirate games. There are certainly legal uses of them however. There are legal (and quite useful) uses for P2P, even though the majority *right now* is for illegal activity. I think the key is to develop those legal uses, to have something to back up the technology.

Erm ...

[Anonymous Coward]

-1 Troll ... why?
The parent pointed out legitimate uses

Using XBOX for other uses

[Sgs-Cruz]

I know a number of people who could care less about pirating console games (mostly since they pirate every game on their PCs anyway, but that's beside the point.)

What they do use the XBOXes for is cheap standalone DIVX / XVID players -- it's cheaper than building a standalone HTPC, and easier for their parents to use as well!

Is "fair-use" legitimate enough?

[SuperBug]

It seems to me, that if I bought an XBox or a PS2 that I should be allowed to use, modify, destroy, cannibalize, alter, fold, spindle, shred, or mutilate said hardware because I bought it with my own money, mod chipping included. If that chip enables me to do things the game companies don't like then the game companies should start offering those features I feel I'm not getting directly out of the hardware which I've purchased. Also, the cost of said features should be proportionate to the cost of commonly available mod chips.

How were mod chips created anyway? Because the features aren't possible to be enabled by the game console manufacturer and all of the sudden someone got an idea for this magic chip that can do what you need and magically the software to enable these functions was created from nothing, or is it because a specification already existed to enable some if not all of these features and that somehow got leaked? Or would those specifications be publicly available, or for sale even, in a public manner? Hearing or reading stuff like this is so frustrating, simply because it's highly ignorant and oppressive of the hardware companies.

I don't mod chip, but if I did, It might be to get those features which the companies didn't include by default. Sound like they need upgradeable proms and start providing updated firmware to those who buy the consoles via a more formal feature request/feedback system. Is that asking too much?

Legitimate uses...

[GrayCalx]

I modded my xbox for a few reasons, some legal some not. 1. I couldn't stand walking to the xbox, so I copied all my games (which i own) so i can run them all from there, jukebox style. 2. I can stream video directly from my replay. So i leave my replay upstairs and my xbox downstairs, to stream standard video to my HDTV. 3. I have downloaded divx movies (illegal i know, sue me, unless you're the mpaa then please don't) I also stream them to my xbox. 4. Finally I wanted a decent way to show off my digital pictures, without making my family pile infront of a computer, a HDTV is brilliant for this. I'm considering purchasing another xbox to use in my bedroom, this time copying my Sopranos/Family Guy/Cowboy Bebop DVDs so i can save $5 a month on my satellite rental fees. I'm tempted to start copying games, I must admit, but there are plenty of legitimate reasons to mod an xbox.

This is all just media sensationalism

[Maestro4k]

Come on, don't get too worked up about this, the guy's obviously going for sensationalism, his remark about fitting all the valid users of mod chips in the back of a Cadillac is a huge clue. This just isn't serious journalism. Wait, he'll be blaming all the deaths in Iraq on tactical shooters next week.

Now as far as the mod-chip market existing, the console makers caused that one themselves. It's a lot like the DVD player situation, there are quite a few people who are going to mod them just to remove the regional restrictions. (Which have nothing to do with protecting against backups, that could be done seperately.) Since they decided to make the regional restrictions & anti-backup measures intermingled, of COURSE a mod-chip market will develop. Then those who have less scruples and just want free games will use it as well.

If the regional restrictions were removed it would help a lot, companies might not even risk making a mod-chip since even though making and playing backup copies of the games you buy is legal, it's much shakier ground for a company to try to defend in court.

Lesson number 11 on Slashdot:

[stienman]

Apparently, simoniker and securitas don't know rule #11 on Slashdot:

Don't feed the trolls.

-Adam

Mod Parent Down

[Anonymous Coward]

Sir, you can't use such a lame tautology unless it's also funny.

Re:Mod Parent Down

[NortWind]

Sir, you can't use such a lame tautology

It's not a tautology at all. In fact the statement is wrong, since plenty of crimes are commited in jails each day by jailed people.
Punishing people who have done nothing wrong but owning something that could be used to commit a crime is a popular pastime that has negative effects.

not XBOX games but...

[admiralfrijole]

i want to get an xbox and mod it, and will play games on it form the hard drive, but not xbox games; i want to be able to play Atari, NES, and SNES roms and stuff. beyond that, if i but a piece of hardware like that, with the power it has, i want to be able to use that as a computer, hell, I would probably end up not playing the emulated games after the novelty wears off in a week and start using the xbox with gentoo on it as a server, just sitting there shelling out webpages and my files

Offer free replacements for scratched CDs

[jeoin]

perhaps this would alleviat the burden of copyright. Just a straigt across exchange at cost after the intial profit has been made.

Punish the crime, not the tool...

[Thud457]

"Bongs enable people to smoke marijuanna."

Yeah, whatever...

In some places (the UK, I believe, fer instance), you can be charged with "possession of burglary tools" for being in the wrong place with a screwdriver in you pocket. That's pretty WHACK.

Where there's a will, there's a way. The best that stupid laws like that do is intimidate the stupid. That's a lofty goal for our legislatures. Oh, wait, now I'm conflicted...

Re:Punish the crime, not the tool...

[Anonymous Coward]

Fling-flanging arglebarg screwed up my link. Crud.

Re:Punish the crime, not the tool...

[Anonymous Coward]

Posession of burglary tools... Is it good or is it wh.. Oh wait, you covered that.

International games

[tambo]

Game companies have undercut their own arguments on this issue by relying heavily on region controls.

On the one hand, it's legitimate to region-protect Japanese games that will be released in America two months later. If unmodded American consoles can't play Japanese games, then Japanese exporters can't sabotage the American release. That's completely legit, and people trying to circumvent copy mechanisms to play the Japanese release have no serious defenses.

But there's no business purpose for region-protecting every game, since many of them won't be exported. When Square region-locks a game to Japan and then doesn't release it in America or Europe, they've simply excluded part of the market for no feasible business purpose. That gives those gamers a legitimate reason to break region protection. Moreover, Square can't claim damages, since 100% of the lost sales were caused by their decision to forego the conversion. (Indeed, they've probably gained some sales, since legitimate gamers would buy their Japanese titles.)

This is simply another example of corporate idiocy. Rather than focusing on select cases of clear harm, these companies obnoxiously assert copy-control rights over their whole body of art, even in cases where their copy control has done them more harm than good. It's like game companies arguing software piracy of abandonware titles that they don't sell any more, or the RIAA suing people for downloading a music track from 1976. Sheer stupidity.

- David Stein

Imports

[dmarx]

One ethical use of modded consoles is to pay imported games (say, from Japan) that have not yet been released in your country.

Why I want a mod chip

[randomwalker]

I have a ps2, but have been thinking of getting an Xbox. The ps2 is used for playing kids games and as a dvd player.
If I buy an Xbox or ps2 i want it to be able to play all the same disks that my dvd players will play (vcd,svcd,jpeg files). It appear to do this for either the ps2 or xbox that i need a mod chip. If the boxes did this without a chip i would have bought at least one more game console by now. My choice of xbox or ps2 is going to be based on which is easier to make totally functional (meaning easier to buy and add a mod chip)

I would like to ability to backup games for the ps2. Since the games cost $10-$50, and kids are rough on them, i will be very annoyed when they break a disk.

My point is that if the ps2 and xbox consoles where made to be more useful, i'm sure sales would go up. I would also buy more games.

Revenues Way Down? I call BS

[Hypharse]

This article provides no concrete information on the amount of money lost. The only statistic it refers to is TOTAL software piracy. Now that total number is most likely exaggerated, but even if it isn't 99.9999% of that is PC piracy. Console piracy as of now is such a small group they hardly cause a blip on the money radar.

It will never be a big chunk. Why, you ask? Because unlike PC piracy, you actually have to PAY most of the time to get a modded console. The typical pirate doesn't want to pay jack which is why they pirate. So it will always be a small audience.

Why pay $100 for a modded box when if you just wait for the games to show up on the used shelves you can get 5 great games for that same price. In my opinion used game sales has a TON more impact on publisher revenue than a modded box. That's where the publishers should be directing their attention. I own a ps2 and have not bought one single game new, yet i have almost all the great games associated with the console. So the publishers haven't gotten one cent from me.

Bad choice of cars.

[Bluesman]

Cadillac trunks are HUGE.

You could probably fit Honda's entire yearly inventory into one.

I wonder why...

[earthforce_1]

God forbid I give them any ideas, but I wonder why closed HW manufacturers haven't taken up the idea of leasing, rather than selling the product to you for 99 years, the way software manufacturers do. You don't "buy" closed source SW, you licence it. If you bought it, you could do what you want with it, but a SW licence is much more restrictive.

Similarly, if the manufacturer retained ownership of the box the way cable companies use to do with set top boxes, or the old bell used to do with your phone, then it wouldn't be yours to tinker with. Opening the box would void your warrenty, just like SW licence agreeements forbid decompilation or disassembly. (Don't know how much legal weight this carries, but they certainly try)

As it sits, I can't see how they can prevent me from doing whatever the heck I please with the products I purchased.

Don't put me in a trunk!

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a modded Xbox. I pony up the money for good games, but if I find that the game is crap when I rent it (like many of them are) I'll keep it on my hard drive for a week or so then nuke it. Space is not infinte, and most of these suckers are 4Gb or so.

Also... have you ever seen how much faster games load from the hard drive? I can never go back to the slow DVD load times. I install every single one of my games to the HD before I play it. Do all your loading once... then never again.

Common Sense

[DJOrient]

Its pretty futile to try to argue against the point of the article. An entire industry exists that supports the pirating of software for the platform gamers. In Toronto, mod chips, mod chipping services and pirated software are sold openly in shopping malls and through out the city. Despite the "mod-chips-aren't-only-tools-for- pirating" mantra that many /.ers cry when faced with this type of criticism - the 1st thought that occurs to hardcore users' when they hear "mod-chip" is not "ooooh - now I can back up my precious copy of Final Fantasy", its more along the lines of "ooooh - i won't spend 50 bucks on that Jet Li game - but i'll definitely torrent it" Now i'm not trying to ignore the small number of people that actually try to run linux on everything - but just like life, all it takes is a few rotten apples to ruin the bunch.

Psychology experiments

[skywolf]

Other than those who have small kids... Lots of psychologists would just love to be able to hack Xboxes to make better virtual reality experiments. If the console manufacturers do sell their hardware cheap hoping to make it up on the games, then it's understandable that they won't want thousands of beowulf maniacs and university professors buying them in their thousands.

GOOD NEWS ALERT

[Anonymous Coward]

U.S. State Department identifies 3 of 4 civilians killed in Fallujah, Iraq, grenade attack today as Americans. Details soon.

My XBOX is modded

[Anonymous Coward]

My XBOX is modded and I'm not a pirate. If the industry ever wises up and introduces a halfway decent player that can read MPEG-4 from DVDs then my XBOX will be obsolete, if that never happens then I'll continue to happily make use of XBMC thanks much.

Price-fixing games too

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone remember that check they got from the class-action settlement for the recording industry (in the US) price-fixing audio CD's--I just wonder how long it will be until they have something like that going for the games. I finally purchased my PS2 console in Jan this year. Ended up actually buying 6 games for it. At at least $20 each ($30 for Socom w/headset and $39 for GTA double pack) it all added up to more than the cost of the console itself. Of course, that is how it's always been. Why do I have a modchip? So I can run whatever I want to on the console. AND I can also run *backups* of rented games. I see it as the lesser of two evils--P2P (bittorrent) downloading of games, where maybe one person paid for it way back when, OR driving to the video store, paying my $6 and getting a game for a few nights. In my mind it seems like the developer would get more money out of the video store deal (they buy many more copies than people do)... Not only that, most of the games I have played on the PS2 (and on other consoles in general) have been so horribly bad and lacked any sort of replayability as not to merit actually purchasing them in the first place. If I rent a game and think it's worthy of being purchase, I'll go buy it--I'll be one of the first in line to buy GTA:San Andreas when it comes out. Otherwise, I rent it, copy it, play it, and take it back to the store. 85% of the time, the backup will never leave it's case again... Also, playing non-usa-region games. I can very easliy purchase a non-usa game (usually NTSC-J) several months (GT4 anyone) before it comes out stateside...I see no reason I shouldn't be able to play a game I purchased just because it hasn't been released in my geographic location yet. The modchip removes this limitation. To bring this to a close--I do have legitimate uses for the modchip too--I use ps2reality and the pdx mp3 player's, not to mention the many emulators out there for the PS2 (atari, c64, nes, snes, mame, sms, genesis, etc). Also, naplink to manipulate my save files on the mem card. thats just my 0.02.

Original PlayStation

[DarkMagician07]

You know, I came into the mod-scene with the original PlayStation. There were a ton of games that a friend of mine brought over from Europe and Japan that we wanted to play while he was here. Unfortunately, the European PS doesn't play on an NTSC TV.

Because of this, we modded my PS to play his games (all purchased copies, no 'backups'), and I learned of quite a few games that I would have missed out on, had it not been for that modchip.

I had him send me more games when he got back, as he travelled to Japan regularly and could get games for a decent price at the time. Too bad I couldn't read Japanese, though, as some of those games looked like they had interesting dialogue :)

reality calling...

[Anonymous Coward]

uum yea, i really DO think that people install modchips to illegaly copy games

re: HARDWARE MODS already Illegal...

[Anonymous Coward]

The FCC regulates transmitting devices..
MOD'ing them is illegal
Look at the label on your monitor..

ALL Autos come with Enviro Mandated Hardware
-- MOD'ing them is illegal..
For example: California Emmissions on Cars..

Laws are made by 'people in positions to make them' not the end (l)user or consumers..

When is SLASHDOT crowd gonna finally understand this..

As my law prof liked to say :

Law is NOT about waht is Fair..(Try to define Fair sometime..)
The LAW is a TOOL - whoever uses the TOOL the best WINS.

--Cheers

gay!!

[Anonymous Coward]

bray is teh gay!! Thank you!!! Thank you!!! I'm here till Wednesday...

Central America

[Rick.C]

I know someone who lives in a Central American country who bought a PS2 at a local electronics dealer. The PS2 came with five free games. He got the console home and tried to play the games, but none would play. He went back to the store and complained. The dealer told him he needed to get a mod chip installed.

Sure enough all five of the "free" games were blue, not silver.

So friend got all irate and demanded original disks. The store owner explained things up to him: "This ain't the U.S., amigo. Look around town. If you find anyone selling original disks, let me know."

Surprise! Even the local discount mart chain carried only burned copies. So friend got a mod chip installed, but now it seems that the PS2 heats up and then starts acting erratically. Take out the chip and it runs cool but won't play the games. What's a poor Yankee to do?

Gee, life sure is simpler back home in Ohio.

No more "hurt" than pirated PC games...

[DroopyStonx]

Most people don't have the know how or the care to mod their systems. Sometimes price is an issue. If you can't solder it yourself, you'll most likely have to send it to a shop somehwere and have someone do it for ya. A lot of people don't want to bother with that.. they don't want to bother with the possible risk of frying your system.

I have a modded PS2 and copy games all the time. I have no problems admitting it. Yeah yeah, I'm a worthless thieving piece of shit, yadda yadda. I'm not justifying it at all, but people have been spreading PC games all over IRC, usenet, P2P, etc... for YEARS. I wouldn't exactly say that the video game industry is suffering because of it.

It doesn't make it okay to do it, but you don't see PC game developers getting up in arms over it (at least, they aren't going on a stampede like the ??AA). UT2004 has been spread all around and it even includes a patch so you can play it online. Compare the sales of 2004 vs the original, which was probably pirated just as much, if not more.

On a more moral note, I've thought about getting a mod for my little seven year old brother's PS2 simply because the games are expensive and he has scratched some already. Granted, they still work, but... at $50 a pop, those things aren't easily replaceable. Sure, I suppose he could be taught to handle them better, but people should still be able to make backup copies of games.

Some might bring up the argument, "Well, with that thinking, how would these companies survive then if everyone did what you're doing?" That's the thing, not everyone does it. I'm sure most people on here know how to go about gettin an ISO of a game if they really wanted it. Does it mean they're going to? The possibility is there, but probably not.

It doesn't justify it, but this type of problem has always existed and always will exist.

Re:No more "hurt" than pirated PC games...

[Anonymous Coward]

PC Game developers aren't making a fuss because they already know they are working in the ghetto of the videogame industry. You prove yourself there and then move up to consoles.

Absolutely not!

[NineNine]

. I think the vast majority of people who own 'modded' consoles have had them modded so they can hire a game from Blockbuster and pirate it.

That's INSANE!! Why pay $$ to rent a movie when you can just download it?
Of course, I often have to download my "backups" because my original is unplayable. Um, yeah, that's it.

Re:Absolutely not!

[drinkypoo]

Stop linking to sn, it can't handle the load now.

Re:Absolutely not!

[gr8fulnded]

That's INSANE!! Why pay $$ to rent a movie when you can just download it?

Because very few movies "released" online have full closed captioning, which is needed for us profoundly deaf geeks out here such as myself.

--Dave

Well..

[Anonymous Coward]

I am guilty of downloading and playing xbox games on my xbox but, this is not the sole reason for the mod. Frankly, I'm not too interested in most games out these days. Mostly I use the xbox to run Xbox Media Center in fact, I've gone so far as to buy a second xbox and mod it to do the same and it has no pirated games on it. You cannot beat the features Xbox MC brings to the table - it seems to be the best Multimedia access software out there. If MS had put this in from the start - I would not have modded my box. However the lack of flexibility and updated features MS would have offered would have eventually led me off the retail path yet again. http://www.xboxmediacenter.com

filthy pirates are stealing our booty

[subjectstorm]

look, sales are down for three reasons:

one, PS2 games lately have been absolute garbage. i'm sure someone could argue that this isn't the case, but you'd have to be damned persuasive to convince me of that point. From what i can see, most games these days are unoriginal crap based on movies, cookie-cutter FPS titles, mangled 3D rehashes of once great side-scrollers, etc. sure, there's stuff coming out like pandora tomorrow and omnimusha 3 . . . i'm not saying that there aren't good titles. i'm just saying that there's a peculiar abundance of gut-wrenchingly awful releases spamming up the catalogue. when someone gets suckered into spending money on a crap title like that, they get all jaded and bitter. it happens.

two, the internet makes it very easy for me to buy used games in near perfect condition. i don't have to pay 54 bucks for a 6 month old game, i can just go get it online somewhere for cheap. and even without the internet, gamestop is doing just fine in the resale business.

and three, (drumroll) MMORPGS. why isn't anyone considering the impact of these? get hooked on just one of these and your life will go to hell around you while you immerse yourself in the title. if you are in one of these things, i think you'll notice that your time spent buying or playing other games is markedly decreased simply because you are spending so much time playing the latest final fantasy title or whatEVER. with traditional RPGs, there is no real replay value, SO if you want more, you buy a sequel. with MMORPGS, there is really no end and no reason to do much of anything else. the same could be said of things like UT2004 - if you're playing that, you probably aren't playing other games unless you just need to decompress for a while.

i would think, in the absence of hard numbers, that the effect of mod chips on sales would be minimal at best. but hey, it's always easiest to blame those god D#$% consumers when your games don't sell like you declare, in your wisdom, that they should.

just my 2 cents.

a nobackup idea

[tofu2go]

i'd bet that the majority, if not close to all modders, do it for the sake of pirating games, and not backups.

something the game industry might consider is to provide replacements for the cost of shipping. if a person damages their disc or cartridge, all they need to do is ship it back, possibly with a copy of the original receipt, and a replacement will be sent to them. this nulls the backup excuse.

in practice though, companies can't keep extras on hand in inventory, so they might limit this replacement policy to 1-3 years, kind of like a warranty. i'm sure in 1-3 years most people will have completed, tired of the game, or gotten their money's worth. and those that prized the game, i.e. would die without it, would take extra special care with it. if the "warranty" period is still an issue, the game companies can factor it into the price by lowering it to account for the limited warranty.

dwards and lil' ppl be advised

[MoFoQ]

I hope he didn't make a wise crack insulting ppl that aren't so tall or big.

anyways, both a friend of mine and myself have modded xboxes (the modchip-free way by enabling TSOP flashing and flashed with a more user-friendly BIOS) and we rarely play games on them. Instead, we use it to watch movies (DVDs or avi's hosted on our home network) or TV shows I recorded with my PVR computer that's in the other room.

Hell, I'm sure in due time, someone will make it so the Xbox Linux can run a USB-TV tuner device for using the Xbox as a PVR. Not bad for a 100 bucks (for used xboxes) + other hardware costs.

When will they give up?

[Bonewalker]

I just have to wonder when the game industry, RIAA, MPAA, etc., will give up this crusade?

I mean really, they can't win. Another poster said that what one man can do, another can undo.

Games, music, movies, books, and art have all been copied and used illegaly or sold illegaly. They absolutely cannot deter the criminal mind. Especially if the majority of a population views it as a harmless crime (downloading copywritten music).

So, my question: when will they give up? They can sue into oblivion, spending millions, getting a pittance back...it will not stop everyone. So, why continue? Is it about education? Teaching the masses what is wrong and what is right, so that eventually they will stop on their own?

What if it isn't wrong? Society makes its own rules, right? What if the opposite becomes true and society deems copying of original creations to be a legal act? I mean, we already have fair use, right? Extend it a bit...to anything goes. Will creators stop creating? Seems to me like those in the game industry already have, at least creating anything new and different.

Who needs mod chips?

[dlc1911]

The Xbox makes a very useful media player for the living room. http://www.xboxmediacenter.com The only reason I bought an Xbox was for this purpose... Now I have 3 and none of them have mods chips since you can flash the onboard bios (Mechwarrior exploit). I own the hardware so I do as I will with it. Obviously I would not ask Mikeysoft to fix it if it broke at this point since it is not in the original purchased condition. With the notorious failures of the Thompson DVDROM in the Xbox I certainly backup my games to my upgraded Xbox hard drive. I would like to say thanks to M$ for making it so easy to modify. Nothing like a $130 (refurbed) networked DVD/mpg/m2v/mp3 player for the living room.

Mod chips help bring consoles into 21st century

[bleublue]

My biggest frustration is that I have to physically change discs if I want to play another game and/or reset a game. With a modded-Xbox and a large HDD, I can just load my games once onto the hard drive and put the DVD away. C'mon this is 2004...any requirement to switch physical media is stupid. Hurray for mod chips.

I wonder

[dthree]

How bad was console piracy when games were on cartridges?

Developers could put a special memory card in the box with the game. The game would only run if that memory card was slotted and you would be unable to copy its contents.

Re:I wonder

[phaln]

Look up all the pirate games for the following consoles:

Atari 2600
Atari 5200
NES
SNES
Sega Mega Drive
You'll quickly find out that there were plenty even back then, through stacking games into compilations, hacking a few sprites to get a different name or character, and releasing it as a 52-in-1. Shit, in HK and China, they even pirate the machines themselves. I couldn't tell you how many "clone" NES machines there are in existence, but there are more than 50.

Let's also consider Flash Cartridges, which are sold by HK and China, that can be reprogrammed with ROMs downloaded from the Internet. I use mine for aboveground uses, but I can imagine there's many of them that don't.

Also, hardware hackers came up with some ingenius means to rip and read ROMs for the cartridge-based systems. This includes the Magic Drive, and other "backup" units. These are still popular, even 15 years after they became wider in market.

Piracy has and always will be part of the gaming landscape, whether anyone likes it or not. Just because it was cartridge-based at one time, doesn't mean it didn't exist. It sure as hell did, and it'll never go away, regardless of media.

Re:I wonder

[Abcd1234]

Actually, there were a number of pirate carts created and distributed in southeast Asia. And cartridge copiers were easily acquired from Asian importers... in fact, when I was in school, one of my classmates had an SNES cart copier, and quite a library of pirated games.

TBH, I think there are too many differences to really compare. Look at today: 1) Video games are more and more being targeted at the 18-25 year old crowd, who is, IMHO, *far* more likely to pirate (as compared to, say, your average 14 year old), and actually has the time and money to invest in piracy hardware. 2) Broadband Internet access makes it ridiculously easy to distribute pirated games, and P2P has only made it easier. 3) Along those same lines, the Internet has made it really easy to learn about and buy mod chips and related tools.

Most modders are pirates

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, most people who modify their console machines are game pirates.

Are there people who modify their consoles for other, legitimate purposes (ignoring the BS DMCA junk)? Sure.

But anyone who would even ask if the majority of modders are pirates is either completely out of touch with reality or wants to hold onto the dream that until the sample of mod-chip users reaches 100%, we have to at least admit the possibility that there is this giant underground community of people who blissfully and legally use their modified consoles for running Linux or watching movies or whatever. Yeah, and they also use them to save treed cats and plant flowers in the medians on the interstate - because they're just nice people.

I know plenty of people with modified consoles. Know how many of them DON'T use them to pirate games? Zero.

Stupid country restrictions

[cpct0]

Same thing for DVDs BTW...

I went to France 2 years ago. I was with my good friend and she was staying at home. Sometimes, she didn't want to visit places. So I did a big background check to know it it was a nice project and I actually bought a PS2 there, along with some games.

Now, fast forward a few weeks later. I had to change the power supply, add a mod chip (Messiah), buy a Pal/Ntsc converter (8m of frame buffer for good quality). But that was a nice project to have hacker-wise, even if very lame money-wise.

Why would I want a mod chip? To play Canadian games, of course. All of my games are original on my PS2. (Except DDR Extreme, downloaded Japan import. Will buy it soon as a legit version)

Mike

Lack of killer titles is to blame.

[hethatishere]

I think the number of people who own Modded consoles are very much in the minority. A small enough group that blaming a dip in sales for the PS2 and the XBox is simply rediculous. The truth is, that neither the PS2 or the XBox has had a "Killer App" for the past several months. The way to tell, is when next Final Fantasy comes out, or when Fable or Halo 2 comes out for the XBox. The GameCube's been selling quite nicely and so have the games. Of course, they've spread out their strong titles unlike Sony or Microsoft, but that had more to do with development schedules than planning. This is the same thing the RIAA did, and is obviously written by someone who while has a pretty good understanding of computers is at an absolute loss with video games. This is not how the industry works, and the number of people with Mods (Both because of cost [$300-400 for a Pre-Modded console], and complex installations [15-25 solders]) are still a small enough minority that the lack of sales because of a lack of killer software and a fiercely competitive price market simply doesn't stand up to logic. But we will see when the next batch of big titles come out for the console. But at this point, we can't start pointing fingers.

Modding and the fall of Western Civilization.

[berchca]

I wasn't going to mod my PS/2, but then last Christmas my grandmother did it for me. It was so easy, she said, why not. But honestly, I don't use it to pirate games; I actually just use it to rip CDs and put the songs on the internet. I didn't intend to end up being a criminal, but you wouldn't believe how the chicks have responded. It's better than owning a Harley.

But Bray's point does have me a little concerned: If companies start to go out of business because of my pirating, I won't have as much stuff around to pirate. It'll be just like that Mad Max movie where everyone has to fight over a single oil refinery because no one knows how to build them anymore.

That's depressing. Can't we just pretend that people are buying less games because of a sinking economy, rising unemployment, and lowered consumer confidence based on the fact that practically everyone in America knows someone who is out of work and wonders if they shouldn't save their money in case it happens to them?

Oh, and I hope SCO doesn't lose their lawsuit; I've got a lot of my pirate attitude tied up in running illegal software.

MOD CHIPS UP

[illuminatedwax]

See subject.

Modder != Pirate

[Anonymous Coward]

I modded my original PS. I tested to make sure it could run CD-Rs. I was satisfied, and never used it since. It's weird, but the geek in me had just gone into overdrive when I found the chip, and I had to have it. Mind you, I'm not a gamer, and I hardly play the games I legitimately purchased in the first place. Let me re-phrase, I don't own a single pirated game, and even if I did, I would probably never play it.

For some reason I don't think I'm the mainstream modder, but I do get a hunch that there are a lot of geeks out there that have modded their game consoles simply because they can. Hey, it's fun. It's honest, and I don't think modding equipment that you own should be anyone's problem.

Reasons for modding...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a PS2, bought it in the states, took it with me when I went overseas. Now, I'm not complaining about game release schedules, since I actually *waited* a full three months for the N. America R-Type Final release just to be able to order it from my web vendor of choice.

I'm complaining about games that will most likely never see a stateside release, Super Robot Wars, Growlancer, Macross, Ghost in the Shell (might see a stateside release...). For these games, the only economic alternative would be to mod my PS2, since actually buying a second one would be pretty expensive.

This is not to say that most people out there don't mod their consoles for illegal usage. I drew shocked stares when I hauled out my CD binder full of legit games (be it PC, PS, PS2, etc..). "You... *buy* your games???" Is the question most often asked right after that. I usually give the disgusted answer "Of course, I still like the idea of supporting games and studios I like." (Well, I didn't quite explain the somehow uniquely U.S. concept of second-hand games and 7-day return guarantees, the idea of any sort of legit software usage is lost on my co-workers... yes, I know studios don't make jack off second-hand sales, it's the thought that counts =)

So my question is thus: by modding my PS2, is *insert game dev name here* losing any money from me? I'd say they're actually making more off me buying more games than I otherwise would.

I would say Nintendo got the idea right with the Gameboy... buy one machine, play any game on it, no matter where you buy the game.

I guess all I'm ranting about is: there are still non-illegal gaming uses for modding.

Re:Reasons for modding...

[CashCarSTAR]

Second hand games?

You might as well be pirating.

*sigh*

You're not supporting the games and studios you like. Only an originial shrink-wrapped copy does that. Now, you have the right to do that, of course.

However, you really shouldn't be a hypocrite.

It's not the thought that counts. It's the cold hard cash.

Overlooking another legit use for mod chips

[Altima(BoB)]

There's another mod chip use that I think people are overlooking, and I feel it is legit, even though some may disagree. That use is getting around region encoding. Like DVDs, modern game consoles, no longer encumbered by mechanical issues like TV standard differences use a system of region codes. This is done so that they can enforce different release dates in places like Europe (It took Final Fantasy X seven months to go from the US to Europe, and they didn't even optimize it for PAL or change any of the spellings of words.) Also, they want to enforce prices, the average new game in the us is $50 as far as I understand, in the EU it's the equivalent of $65, sometimes higher.

Okay, game companies may think it's doing something wrong, but it's just circumventing a system that shouldn't be there at all. By buying the same product on a different continent, you're giving the same giant multinational money, you just don't need to tolerate being treated as a second class market. With mod chips you can do this. Okay, ending my rant :)

Re:Overlooking another legit use for mod chips

[dthree]

You bring up an interesting (somewhat OT) point. Multinational companies can take advantage of a global industrial marketplace and labor force, yet build artificial market segmentation at the consumer level. Essentially, they want to say "we cut your job because an Indian programmer will do your job for less, but we will still charge you more for our end product because the consumer market will bear the price and we get to keep the profit."

Re:Overlooking another legit use for mod chips

[Altima(BoB)]

Yeah, exactly. I often wonder if at any point in the existance of society these big corporations will ever see these actions and rather than seeing it as a simple crime, see it as a message from the consumers that they don't like things and won't tolerate it. If companies interpreted it like this and changed their practices to suit consumers, perhaps they'll increase profits, making a win/win scenario.

I'm sure this is not a new idea, and if I'm oversimplifying, please correct me, but it seems to me that the balance between "The customer is always right" and "Caveat Emptor" has really shifted these days to consumers being treated as enemies...

One for One replacement?

[BitRandom]

Exactly - If the industry would create a policy where they offered a one for one replacement then they could take the backup issue off the table.

Why won't they do this? I'd like to think that it is more from an over developed worry about pirates making perfect copies than a strategy to generate additional revenues but I just don't trust them that much.

Given the temporal market nature of most games, vendors could offer replacements after the point where they are just making marginal profits on the games and probably have both a happier user base and the issue removed from discussions about fair use (see above on trust though).

But this is Slashdot!

[molafson]

Remember, this is Slashdot where no one uses mod chips except to boot Linux. Also, we only use BitTorrent to download Mandrake ISOs, only use MP3s to backup our CD collection, and only use DivX to watch home movies.

Also, Kazaa is good for CD sales, copyright laws are terrorism, and "I'd buy an iPod if it supported Ogg."

Another possible cause for overall hurt sales...

[ArchAngelQ]

Could it just be that way to many games that are coming out are overpriced, overproduced, exactly the same as the gameplay we've gotten before graphical bungles that people really are having trouble caring about? Most of the games that sell well that are coming out are mearly highly polished versions of things we've seen before with one or two novel twists (FPS, RPGs, etc).

A second reason is services like gamefly. I know I won't be bying as many games from now on, as long as I have this service available. Why buy that game that's $55 for 12-18 hours of gameplay when I can rent it for a week? Anyway, just my 2c.

Write to FOX!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Free Tommy Chong!!!!

"That 70's Show" just hasn't been the same!

There are legitimate uses

[Overly Critical Guy]

Nobody disputes there are legitimate uses. But one thing that does amuse me is when people dance around the issue of what the majority do in fact use it for, which is piracy.

It's like with P2P networks, every Slashdotter comes out of the woodwork to declare that copyright has somehow magically transferred to those of the P2P users, and that they merely use the networks to "sample" albums and so on. I don't get the aversion to admitting the simple truth, which is that 99.9% of those networks is blatant piracy with no intention of buying anything. Of course, one wonders why they're really complaining to begin with, since if they're not doing anything wrong and are only trading legal materials, why should they care if the RIAA sues the illegal downloaders?

With mod chips, there are always legitimate uses, but it's silly to pretend over 90% of usage isn't for pirating games. It's the first thing you thought of when you first found out about mod chips. It's human nature. Let's be real here.

authors unwitting influence

[gravyfaucet]

You could fit the number of people who read that article and decide to avoid/remove mod chips in the trunk of a cadillac, with room for poor poor Marvin.
But the number of folks who think "hey, that sounds like a cool idea" might fit better in a cadillac factory.

Lessig discusses how people react...

[Milo77]

to things they can't stop: here

RIAA redux

[JayBlalock]

Yeah... We are almost certain Microsoft loses money for every X-Box sold (probably more with the new price cut), but are supposed to immediately believe them when they say "pirates" are the problem.

The "razor blade" model ONLY works if the razor is useless without the blades. THEY produced a product which could be put to legitimate uses without ever paying them another dime, therefore it's THEIR problem if they're losing money. They had a bad business model for the X-Box, and that's the end of it. They're just hiding behind laws to try to cover up for that.

And this is coming from a guy who uses his Dreamcast in creative ways, yet has never pirated a DC game in his life. I just use it to play homebrew games, and using ScummVM to convert my LucasArts games to console versions. (yes, playing Sam & Max on a TV screen is way cool...)

The word "import" ever come to mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not everyone buys games exclusively in their region. Here in the States, I know a couple of people who use mod chips so that they can import games and play them, to get around the region code stuff.

Could we, just once, assume that people are innocent until proven guilty? Or is that a threat to the bottom line of monopolistic industries?

XBOX Media Center!

[Skates1616]

I have both achipped PS2 and XBOX, and the PS2 is basically sitting their collecting dust these days! The XBOX is the only one getting any use and that's because I can play all my DiVX/XViD movies on my XBOX by streaming them using my computer. If it wasn't for this feature alone I probably wouldn't be playing either of the two consoles, their haven't been any games lately that have caught my attention except for some yearly released sports games and Splinter Cell. Otherwise, my PS2 most likely won't get any use until the new Grand Theft Auto comes out, or they release a new Gran Tursimo for it. Maybe modchips are causing the drop in sales of video games, but I would bet a lot of people are like me and only use them for the homebrewed applications that can be run on the consoles!

Revenue Not Lost On Me...

[LilMikey]

I bought an X-Box only for it's modding capabilities. 90% of the time the console is on it's running MythTV, Linux, or XBMC. It's just kind of a happy coincidence that I've bought 6 or 8 games for the thing as well. I garauntee 100% that if the XBox wasn't mod-able, they would not have gotten 1 penny from me...

Superior Solution

[Smilodon]

I am using my XBox (with 200gig drive) for XBox Media Center. I hardly play the few games I got with the device.

Frankly Xbox Media Player is a superior solution for playing various digital media than other set-top box solutions. It is only matched by a "full-blown" PC, which I don't want in my living room.

The software will play nearly anything, which makes some of the other "set-box" solutions seem pathetic due to the limitations of what format video they require.

Yes, I know the XBox is essentially a PC, but it has HD output, a wireless remote, a (region free with the software)DVD Player and so forth.

Sure, I could build a shuttle or some other small form factor PC to do the same tricks, but I've got less than $400 bucks in this solution all out.

I know they expected to make money off of me on all the games I would buy, so that's why I got it so cheap. That's not a great deal for them, but regardless, I'm not pirating games!

Xbox makes an awesome HTPC

[Ythan]

I got an Xbox for my birthday. It sat in the box for about a year until I got a mod chip and installed Xbox Media Center. Now I use it every day.

Gah!

[ericdfields]

Modders as the new P2P demons! Is there and RIAA of the video game industry?

Piracy is the dominant reason

[DaveCBio]

Sure, mod chips have other uses, but anyone that thinks that most people are just modding to play MP3s or watch videos is fooling themselves.

Re:Piracy is the dominant reason

[Smilodon]

In the case of the Xbox, at least, that may not be the case. There are a few factors that figure into this:

* The game selection isn't as good on Xbox.
* Many companies are starting to introduce digital media players (particularly video).
* Microsoft is trying to push the PC as a media center.
* People are making a good business selling imported region-free DVD players.
* Everything digital that is coming out is also crippled by DRM additions.

So get a little clever with a $149 Xbox, and you have a very, very good digital media player (and a region-free DVD player). And no crippled DRM.

Suddenly, if you look at it from a non-game playing standpoint, it makes perfect sense (at least for XBox). Digital media players are the next big gadget, and they are expensive as a result.

I think, over time, a larger percentage are modding for other reasons, or at least a dual reason (copying games as well).

Re:Piracy is the dominant reason

[DaveCBio]

Game selection is relative, I own more Xbox games than my other 2 consoles because it has the games I want. Anecdotally speaking the vast majority of people I know that have chipped Xboxes and PS2s pirate games. Except for th harware savvy, most people looking for the kind of multimedia functionality will by an off the shelf product. With PVRs and DVD burners coming down every quarter there isn't much incentive to pay for a modded Xbox for the average Joe.

The amount of disinfo on /. is astounding.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the drugs aren't the problem, it's the effect on their users and society.

Re:The amount of disinfo on /. is astounding.

[Anonymous Coward]

Like what? It makes mommies sad? So what! That isn't enough to ban something.

People rob others for drug money? Robbing is already illegal!

Legitimate uses? Probably only 1%

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I'm not saying there aren't alot of great legal uses for a modified console. But the reality is that its pretty much in the minority. Myself, I have a modded PS2 so I can get games that are not available in the US. They're not going to be porting any of the SuperRoboWars games here any time this century. And I thought it was a minor miracle they brought over Lifeline (aka Operator's Side in Jap).

Best mod chip for playing imports?

[tigris]

Any recommendations out there for which mod chip to get? I'm in the market to get a modded console to play R2 imports but there doesn't seem to be any consensus about what mod chip is best for this purpose.

Try reading the DMCA

[Kjella]

Modifying something you own is NOT illegal. You might be able to do something illegal as a result. Then that action would be illegal, not the modification.

No, the mere act of creating the device is illegal. Hell, under the DMCA disseminating information on how people can modify their own property is an offense.

Warning stickers and warranty voiders are their right (and are there because people were *suing* and returning on warranty stuff they were stupid enough to get hurt by or broke).

Those are as bogus as they ever were. But the DMCA is real. Sometime this year I suspect we'll have the Euro-DMCA (aka EUCD) making it illegal here too. I wish it wasn't so but "Modifying something you own is NOT illegal." is simply plain old wrong.

Kjella

It's not the chips it's the

[guybrush876]

The prices of the games and saturation of the market, PS one was easier to mod and even so revenues continued climbing, but now they are reaching a point where the novelty is gone and people start to think of the amount of money they have to pay to play a game and they are running out of new people that are willing to spend so much money. I bought PS2 about one year and a half after it came out and didn't put the mod chip, all the games I own are platinum or used, never bought a recent game, the platinum games are in my view sold ate at fair price the new game are sold at outrageous prices, and like me probably others are thinking this and are buying less new games, of course many people don't have the patience to wait a year for the platinum so they put the mod chip and copy the game. The only way the game industry can grow to be similar to the video or music industries is with lower prices.

Duping EEPROMs

[eples]

My Uncle used to dupe EEPROMs for our Atari 2600.

That was a long time ago but nobody seemed to have a problem with it. Just seems natural for humans to want to share with other humans the things that make them happy. Music, books, games, other people even.

The question of revenue...

[Scorpion_1169]

I do not fool myself into thinking that console piracy is anything other than theft, BUT, I am constantly baffled by the idea that somehow it takes money from the hands of the developers, publishers, and distributors.

The cost of the game is the time it takes to develop it, the raw materials and the arbitraty markup required to sell it at the 'industry standard' price. Those costs are all set values which will not change after the software is shipped.

If I, as a consumer, am willing to pay for the software then obviously the company recieves the financial benefit. If I am not willing to or cannot pay for it then the overall cost to them does not change. If I proceed to download the software, the cost to them STILL does not change. My theft, while morally questionable (read as wrong), does not alter their 'bottom line.' If I were to physically steal the software on disc, even then I am stealing from the retailer, not the video game conglomerate.

I realize that there is a cost associated with protecting the software from piracy and that that DOES affect the companies financials. I see this as a questionable finaincial decision that the company makes. Thus far, NO copyright protection has worked for consoles. It takes time, but all the consoles have been craked. Spending the money on trying to prevent it seems to me like just throwing it out. If they want to improve the 'bottom line' they should just stop wasting money on piracy protection schemes.

They, as well a some of you, may argue that this would lead to more people stealing the software. In saying that, you're saying that pretty much everyone is a thief if given the opportunity and that the more opportunity that you give the more people there are willing to be thieves. If that is true, then it kind of breaks even once again and does not impact the finances. It cost less to make and the fact that that people download it does not alter that cost.

Personally.

[MrBling]

Personally I use my xbox for very little gaming. The small bit of gaming I do do on it are with actual games I have bought.

I on the other hand use my xbox as part of my home theater. The ablity to play any format, stream from my servers, etc is wonderful. It can do things that would have cost me a lot more money to do with other appliances.

Just my 2c

Bs, Bs, BS....

[neelm]

Blaming the state of the game market on mod chips is 100% bs. Thier own numbers would tell you it's not going to have an affect. An after market addon that gets a 10-20% install base is *awesome* - and we are talking about an addon that requires some degree os electronics hardware hacking? I would be amazed that *working* modded consols account for 5% of the number sold.

I have an unmodded Xbox, bought when they first came out. I have managed to buy 4, yes only 4 games for the system. I am an avid gammer, so it's not that I don't want to play games - it's the cost of a decent game runs near $70 bucks. Screw that. And there are even that many decent games to start with.

I have a TiVo that I'm not willing to dust the case of for fear of breaking it. But the Xbox? Time to mod it I think. I want the "home media option Xbox" so I can play any format known to man on my home system the Xbox is part of. A brief search will show you more XBox's are modded to be a home media station than play burned games - you can't burn a crap game into a good one after all.

If chip mods were as bad as they are being made out to be, M$ would be shutting down the modders in a lawyer blitz - they have the DMCA after all. It's obvious how easy it is to get a mod chip though that this is not happening. Maybe M$ knows that using the DMCA this way is a fast way to have a court throw out the DMCA; I can't think of a better example of why the DMCA is bad. Bob buy Xbox. Bob adds mod chip. Bob play home movie of daughter's first grade play. Bob does 25 years in a federal pound me in the....

Now, if you said mod chips are killing the RIAA, I'd say well what do you think the media is everyone is trying to play? Bob's home movies only take you so far...

we're far from critical mass

[DotDotSlasher]

Modding game consoles is still hard enough, that the problem can be ignored.
Just like Napster was ignored by the authorities until Joe MiddleAmerica said "Hey, I have broadband and Napster -- I don't have to spend a few hundred dollars per year on CDs any more". That's when the RIAA got involved.
And that's when the gaming industry will start to make a bigger stink. Hopefully they won't be only fighting dads who just want to preserve their game investments.
btw, let's be real here. By the time a game is terminally scratched by Jr., you can find it on eBay or your local used reseller for $20 or less. It's not another $50 purchase.

Oh, no! They've brainwashed him!

[danaris]

If a company wants to localize the distribution of their content, it's illegal for you to circumvent it.

Huh?!?!?!

Says who? Besides the companies themselves, I mean? Even the DMCA, so far as I understand it (which is only at a pretty basic level, of course, as IANAL), is only to prevent circumvention of copyright protection devices/mechanisms. This is only very peripherally related to copyright protection. The only direct relationship I can see is the number of Chinese and Hong Kong companies that sell bootleg DVDs...but those are region-free anyway. The reason region protection exists is solely to prevent people from buying a title before it is available in their region, and with video games, I don't even understand how this helps the companies. With movies, if people can buy the DVD when the movie is still (or not yet) in theaters, they might be less likely to go to the theater. But with games...what's the motive?? I just don't see any good reason to stop us from playing games we bought legally from or in another country.

And if you have any sort of real source for your bizarre notion that circumventing region locking is inherently illegal, please tell me; I'm genuinely interested to know what idiots managed to make that a law.

(though if it is a law, it was probably the same idiots who gave us the DMCA ;-P)

Dan Aris

Rights.

[eSavior]

Consumers are quickly losing what rights they have on products they buy. Some people on here have said to lobby congress against the DMCA. I am curious to if anyone has actually seen benifit from that? Lobbying congress as a individual may have worked in the 1900s but today if you dont got the money our representatives dont care. You may say that intrest groups are a collective of individuals trying to get to a common goal, but take a look at the amount of campaign donations high end intrests groups make (NRA). Laws now go to the highest bidder. Welcome to a capitalist democracy.

Also, some have said we should be able to do what we want with things we buy, in responce people have brought up bongs and guns. These things are very emotionally charged, and are not very good examples.

A better one would be, 3rd party hardware. Ever buy a non sony memmory card? They are generally cheaper or have more storage capacity. Well what if sony put a lock on its machine that would allow only sony santioned electronics to be pluged in. You then would be forced to pay whatever the price they picked for their cards. Competition would be non existant.

The problem with this is, what if that locking out of competition was also used as a way of stoping pirated games. And that is the situation the legitmate modders find themselves in. They wish to back up their games, or make homebrew code, but they dont want to circumvent copy protection, unfortunatly how its designed one can not come with out the other.

No analogies please, stick to the point

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you.

Not good analogies

[xswl0931]

So admit (and I'm sure most people agree) that the main reason for the existence of mod chips is to pirate games. So the main use of a car is transportation. The main use of alcohol is "entertainment". Guns, however, I don't see any reason they exist other than to kill something, so you are right there. So the difference is the intended purpose. Pillows are made to cushion your head, but you can also use it to smother someone, so we should ban it? Doesn't make sense.

Re:Not good analogies

[gosand]

So admit (and I'm sure most people agree) that the main reason for the existence of mod chips is to pirate games. So the main use of a car is transportation. The main use of alcohol is "entertainment". Guns, however, I don't see any reason they exist other than to kill something, so you are right there. So the difference is the intended purpose. Pillows are made to cushion your head, but you can also use it to smother someone, so we should ban it? Doesn't make sense.

What is the intended purpose of mod chips? If you read the websites, it is to make backups. P2P is for filesharing. Nothing illegal there.

Of course the argument is ridiculous - that is the point. The attempt to ban something that has legal uses. That is why I advocate supporting those uses, and helping them to grow, so the illegal uses are in the minority.

Re:Not good analogies

[xswl0931]

The point is that the intention of mod chips is NOT for backup purposes, that's just the legal disguise they are using to sell them.

Of course they're used mostly for piracy

[realmolo]

Yeah, you can backup your games. But unless you are perishingly honest, you won't. You'll rent games, make copies.

On the X-Box, it's even easier, if you've added a bigger hard drive along with the modchip. You just rip the game to the hard drive.

Now, as to the question of how this hurts game sales- let me put it this way:

The only people I know that have modded consoles are myself, and 2 friends who learned how to do it from me.

NO ONE owns modded consoles. At least, it's a statistically insignificant number. It doesn't hurt sales. What hurts sales is the fact that you'd have to be crazy to pay $50 for a game when you can rent it for $6 and finish it in a few days.

How is the Dishnetwork PVR?

[PetoskeyGuy]

I know this is a bit off topic, but could you tell me about your DishNetwork PVR? What model do you have and how does it work? I've been thinking about getting one, but I've seen reports that say everything from you can't live without them ones that say DishNetwork sucks. I was looking at the 510 model, but I would be interested in hearing about whatever you have if you would take the time to post.

Thanks.

Re:How is the Dishnetwork PVR?

[Matey-O]

I've gota 508....the first one failed after 4 months, the second one had slightly altered operation (I suspect to cut down on HD useage and file fragmentation) The second one has run for 8-10 months without a hitch. Aside from the thumbs up/thumbs down feature of the TiVo, this has become an irreplaceable paret of our home theatre. I won't be moving to HDTV until a cheap PVR solution is available (I got the 508 for $200, installed)

Re:How is the Dishnetwork PVR?

[PetoskeyGuy]

You may be interested to know that Dishnetwork is running an upgrade to the 510 PVR for $99 + one year contract and it's amazingly available to existing customers. Call the 800 number on the website and ask them about PVR upgrades for existing customers.

I'm just a bit pissed because we bought a house and the owners left the satellite system with an old 3000. We thought great and transferred it to our name, but then couldn't get the multi-room PVR offer because we were not a new customer any more.

Re:How is the Dishnetwork PVR?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, and with the 510 you get to pay an addition $5 "PVR fee" for the privilege of using the PVR features. This is in addition to any extra outlet fees.

Just buy a 721 instead. No additional fee and dual tuner.

Re:How is the Dishnetwork PVR?

[PetoskeyGuy]

$60/year vs $500 up front.

I don't think I'll get 6 years out of the PVR to make it worthwhile. Maybe if it goes on sale. Sounds very nice though.

There are NO legitimate uses for a MOD chip.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? Because the machine would have allowed people to do what they wanted without a MOD chip in the first place. Using a chip to run multimedia files on your XBox is not legit. That media player was never licensed by Microsoft to begin with! Nor was all the data you put on the drive. Circumventing their own ROM in itself is illegal in the USA. Making legit backups? Usually you can send in your scratched disc to the vendors and they'll end you a new one back at no cost! People need to be honest with themselves, they ae using MODchips to extend their consoles to do things that were never wanted to be done in the first place. And the reasons for this are many. I know many XBox users, and out of all of them, only one hasn't mod'd his XBox yet. All the rest just rent games and rip them to their increased HDs .. Its pathetic.

Yet another lawsuit

[Anonymous Coward]

And you just watch. Pretty soon some paranoid company is going to read this and start suing MOD chip companies. Or worse, sue the MOD chip users on grounds for illegal circumvention of copy-protection or some such.
This could be yet another blatant mususe of the DMCA. Those game discs are fragile and break easily, and I don't think it is fair for Micro$oft to expect us to pay $49.99 to get another when this one wears out. When you buy a game, you buy rights to use it for life. So that means that it should be legal to make copies for personal use.
And besides, why pay $50 when you can get the same game on PC for less -- without region coding or other such crap.

Rental games illegal in Japan,audio CDs rentable

[Anonymous Coward]

Games are illegall to rent in Japan.. (because it's a local industry that they want to protect) On the other hand... audio CDs (primarily american...) are totaly rentable, and many people rent music to go home and copy it.

Damaged revenue

[swb]

Did I miss something? Were game vendors, the MPAA or the RIAA promised a certain amount of revenue or revenue growth? If not, how can their revenues be "damaged"?

The only thing I can think of is that they're just automatically expecting revenue growth, or they have some model that says X consoles means Y games should be sold.

Either way, why automatically blame piracy for this? Why not blame shitty games, aging console tech, a bad economy, or some other problem?

It kind of reminds me of the computer software industry that counts every pirated copy a lost sale, despite the fact that most of those copies would have never have been 'sold' due to their cost, complexity or sheer lack of use by the person with a copy of them.

What I was a kid

[PetoskeyGuy]

Maybe it's showing my age, but I remember when I bought my first computer and printer they both came with schematics in the user manual. Of course things were big and simple enough at that time that was realistic and almost life size. I skipped buying a hard drive because I figured for $400 I could swap a lot of floppy disks. :o)

And I liked it.

We're all criminals

[felonious]

I just love how these stories are skewed in a way to make us all seemm dishonest and guilty of piracy. The word piracy is so mis-used these days and holds as much credence as the boy who cried wolf. The absolute fact is that those who pirate are the minority and, I do stress minor, not the majority.

I know we have these companies claiming to lose so and so dollars to piracy but a lot of these "missed sales" are sales that wouldn't have been made in the first place but they don't take into account all the rentals and such.

I really think there's a growing trend of civil disobedience and user backlash because of all the accusations about piracy. It's kind of like "if you think I'm a pirate I'll show you what a pirate is" mentality. I mean prices are outrageous, products are released in alpha/beta states, and very few offer the quality we pay for.

My message to these whiners is get your shit together, quit accusing your customers of stealing, and put out a respectable, quality product and you're going to make money.

Until then all of them can STFU.

Back to my modded XBOX...hmmmm....what will I play today???? SOme MAME? atari26000 emu? colecovision emu? Apple II emu? Intellevision emu? Sega emu? Nah I think I'll play the WoW alpha.....

Send it back to the vendor then..

[Anonymous Coward]

Most places will just send you out a new one. It is that easy. Seriously, be honest now.. I've owned consoles since Atari days, i've got STACKS of super scratched CDs and DVDs and they all play great still. It is virtually impossible to scratch your games to the point of not working unless you really try to. And if you do, send it back to Square/Enix or whoever and play a brand new one a week later. Sheesh!

Re:Sure...(Let's outlaw everything.)

[tetsuji]

Ooh! Ooh! Let's outlaw 2x4's too! And rocks, since you can bash someone over the head with either!

Re:Oh, no! They've brainwashed him!

[tekunokurato]

No, you're right; I didn't mean to imply that there's a law that says "channels of distribution define legal product domains" or anything. But, it is illegal to circumvent copyright restrictions, and so if a local player is required to play the content, it's illegal to circumvent the restrictions on the player to play different-regioned content.

Why does the cossumer take all the risk?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a modded ps2 and xbox. I use it to try out games before I buy. Anything that I play for more than an hour or two I go out and buy. I believe in supporting the good software publishers. Yeah I could rent the game but all we have is blockbuster which is almost as mucha rip off as actually buying the game. It's close to $7 to rent a game and most of the time they're out of the good ones. So I just burn them and decide if it's worth purchasing.

If they want to enforce copyright enfringement they should also make a law about copyright abuse. All these game publishers pushing out complete pieces of crap for $50 that you're stuck with after you buy them. That's just as much a crime as pirating. Call it false advertising if you need a legal term. Promising to deliver a unique and powerful gaming experience and then actually delivering buggy and boring clone of the last great game. I'd like to see someone go after one of these publishing companies for realeasing a sub-par product and not offereing a refund. I'd also like to add my own personal disclaimer to any game I purchase and force the publisher agree to it before I open the packaging. It would read something like.

If this game is crap you bet your a$$ you're giving me my money back.

- angry boy

No way is this a problem

[Animats]

The number of kids who can open up a game console and replace a part without breaking the thing is tiny. Soldering surface mount devices is not for beginners.

I'll bet that at least half of modchip installers break their machine and have to buy a new one.

Legitimate Uses

[smashr]

Yes, it does seem that a lot of people use modchips to pirate games. However, what the industry needs to be concerned with are the people who chip their boxes in order to avoid BUYING the game. It is only lost revenue if the person would have purchased the game if they did not have the ability to pirate it.

I have a modded X-box, and yes I have several "backups" saved. However, the primary purpose of my box is a Media Center. I have well over a 100gb of media on my network, and it can instantly be streamed to my TV + Stereo. Not bad for $150 and a couple of solder points.

Remember, there ARE a lot of legitimate uses for modded consoles; and most modded consoles are not costing the industry money.

scapegoat

[nappingcracker]

i personally use a modded console just so i can run linux apps on it, it already has tv output, and makes it the cheapest xvid/dvd/music/net/fileserver ever.

but as far as the title of parent thread, i feel that modchips have little to do with the video game industry sales decline. times are tighter than they were back a few years ago, at least compared with profits and revs of 1999 (the likes of which had never been seen before- those were GOOOOOD years) there was more disposable income, there were more innovations (remember when 3d [console] gaming was a new thing?) and lots more was being spent on consumables.
come to think of it people are consuming more now than ever, americans are the most voracious consumers of any known civilization. the only change is that they are only having great profit years, not insaneo threee-thousand-per-cent return on invenstment years. sheesh there was a time when companies had bad years that they just broke even, or at a loss and they said "wow thats been happening every now and then to everything since forever, its a cycle, its ok"

who to blame? not the fact that alot of hyped games have really really sucked worse than you could have prepared yourself for. not the fact that people are reaching a period of video saturation and need to cool out, or that parents are seeing that maybe they shouldnt turn their kids into tubers (still parents buy an crazy amount of games and electronic crap for their children again probably more than ever, screw the park or all that fresh air). dont blame the fact that the good years of the net boom was an anomaly of type that is only seen when an innovation (read- steam engine, wheel, tacking sails, plane, car, transistor) enters hypergrowth. quick the investors are restless! who to blame? mod chips! pirates!

seriously, out of all my geek friends, i know one other person who would consider cracking their precious video whatever and throwing this "mod chip" that they got via mail via internet, then flash it with a bios (the very word bios sets off !do not touch! alarms in most peoples minds) so that they can burn a disk on a special media in X format so they can hold the button down and lean it left while rubbing thier tummy while chewing gum so that they can play a pirate game, cause its way easier than paying 50 USD and having it "just work". out of the great number of people buying video games i think the few pirates are not making the slightest dent in sales especially when you consider the large number of sales that come from parents, for kids that dont know what a soldering iron looks like (and i dont know any parent that would take a screwdriver to any consumer piece of electronics, remember we consume, dont fix - heck, people dont even clean electronics any more). so to stop this rant -- the industry is pointing the finger at pirates to appease the investors while maintaining their control freakishness to thwart innovation and shelf ideas to garantee a few more years of easy profit. modchip!=pirate but pirate==modchip

Pricey mofuckas

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd buy more games if they didn't cost a third of what I pay for the system it self. $35 is a good price for a game. $70 and up is ridiculous.

Mod Chipping and Region Coding

[ronfar]

I mod chipped my Playstation for one reason and one reason only, to play games that Sony decided would never see the light of day (Samurai Spirits, Rockman, Last Blade) in the United States but were available in Japan. This is the same reason I modded my Dreamcast (Vampire Chronicles, Shenmue II). Sony is still pulling this crap, which is why SNK is making games for the XBox.

I could care less what happens to the console manufacturers as long as they are region coding their games, but I didn't mod my systems so I could play pirate games. When Sony started fixing their games so they wouldn't play in my modded Playstation, I got rid of all my American games (gave them to some kid with an unmodded PSOne). I know I could've re-mod chipped it so it would work, but frankly I was buying too many games for it (both American and Foreign) and supporting Sony by spending a lot on games. Sony won, they very loudly shouted that they didn't want my business and they never got it back, and never will. The only reason why I didn't get rid of my Japanese games and modded Playstation is because they are exotic and only of interest to a few people. It sits in a cardboard box on a shelf in my room, never to be used by me again, probably.

Now that I've built my own up-to-date PC I'm probably going to mainly be buying games for it, a relatively open platform.

Quite simply

[G00F]

I would say, most people using mod chips just want something more to play with. Either to put linux on it, or just to customize their xbox.

In fact I know people who never touched linux, and have modded their xbox left and right. And they actualy own(or borrow) all the games they play.

Region locks are stupid.

[Alkaiser]

Exactly. All this crap with region locking in DVDs and games is bull.

I used to own a modded original PS. This was great for playing imports of stuff that would never come over to the US...like Cooking Fighter Hao. I very rarely burned stuff because if I really enjoyed it...I was spending my time PLAYING the damn game. If I didn't enjoy it, it wasn't worth burning.

I'd like to mod my PS2, and I probably will shortly. I would have done it by now, but the import game stores in my area have already been threatened by Sony directly to stop doing it, even though they only sell 100% legit games.

I mod my system so I can play the imports. I do this because if I wait for the game to come out here, EVERYONE knows every intricate detail of the game already because every magazine gets an "exclusive" detail about the game, and it's ridiculous.

So I play the game while its in Japanese...and I can't understand all the info about the details. (You'd be surprised how easy it is to figure out the plots to today's games even without any understanding of the language.) The only thing I keep my US system around for is games that I rent (There aren't any places that rent Japanese games.) and really deep tactical games, where I miss out by not completely understanding the game system.

So why do they care about region locking the games? The manufacturer of the hardware AND the game publisher are in Japan. I'm giving them money to legitimately buy and use the software. What the hell's the problem here?

If they'd only see that by removing region locking they'd get rid of most of the legitimacy of the mod chips themselves, they could crack down on this stuff much harder.

In any case, whenever someone mouths off about how piracy is hurting publishers because people download their games and all...a large percentage of that software downloaded is crap they'd never even give a look at on the store shelves. How many people do you know who played Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing. How many people do you think paid for it? 4? But because it's at no real charge to them, some people will burn games that they normally wouldn't even spend rental money on.

Is this lost money to the industry? No. None of those crappy games would have sold or been rented. The game industry needs to stop whining. Software gets more leeway than ANY other product on the market. How many other products can flat out not work, and have the industry standard policy of not providing a cash refund? Click-wrap EULAs and all, I'm perfectly fine with kicking the industry around a bit until it stops acting so consumer-hostile.

Re:Sure...(Let's outlaw everything.)

[Anonymous Coward]

While we're at it, let's ban all people who suck! That would solve all the world's problems.

what about playing Import games?

[cyrax777]

I only used my modded ps1 to play imported games.

Times are Changing

[Marc_Hawke]

The first mod-chip I heard of was for the PS1. I'm sure there were others, but this was the first for me.

It was cool for one reason. Since they used CD's, you could burn a copy of the game CD and then 'share.'

However, now-a-days, I don't hear of that anymore. (Maybe I travel in the wrong circles, maybe it's become passe', who knows). What I hear instead is...

-- Make the hardware do something special. Like how every electronic contraption can be made to run Linux. They make it really difficult to make anything of your own run on their hardware.

-- Imports. Believe it or not, but the world has shrunk (shrank, shrunken?) in the last 10 years. It's just about as easy to buy something from Japan or Germany as it is to buy it from down the street. They make it really difficult to actually use this product that you own.

-- Backups. Can't tell you much about backups. The peopel saying "kids" might have a point, but I've never actually seen it done.

The point is, the world has changed. I think modchips were one-trick-ponies in the past, but they become more and more legitimate as time passes.

And pointing out yet again....

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, P2P has its legal uses, but consider that a majority uses this to illegally traide files. The persentage of those who use it legally, and share works that they have legal permission to share is very few.

Re:Oh, no! They've brainwashed him!

[Shakrai]

No, you're right; I didn't mean to imply that there's a law that says "channels of distribution define legal product domains" or anything. But, it is illegal to circumvent copyright restrictions, and so if a local player is required to play the content, it's illegal to circumvent the restrictions on the player to play different-regioned content.

Is it also illegal to buy a DVD player in the UK and use a 240v -> 120v converter and PAL/NISC converter so I can play it on my American TV using my American electrical supply?

All they do is make it harder for people who want to spend money. It's not even a speedbump to the people pirating their content.

Re:Rental games illegal in Japan,audio CDs rentabl

[AnyNoMouse]

They even sell Minidiscs right there at the checkout :-) Though, I wouldn't call the audio CD's primarily American. At least, not the couple of rental places I visited. They manufacture idol singers on a scale much larger than here in the states.

macrovision: another legitimate use!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm another modded-ps2 owner who has 0 pirated game. Other than using the modchip for coding on ps2 (even if its old story nowadays), the other legitimate use of a legally-bought-ps2 with a legally-rented-dvd on a legally-owned-combo-tv (one of those tv sets with embedded vcr (and only 1 synthonizer)) is getting rid of the ridiculous Macrovision(TM) copy-protection-mechanism: fear of illegally copying a rented dvd on a bulk vhs tape led the Majors to impose yet another lock, making the strenght of the video signal go up and down frantically!
Who should I sue if my combo-tv would break (as it already did!)?

And I think he's full of shit.

[Moryath]

Most of my PC games are backed up. And then I have another 5-6 CDs of the No-CD cracks. Why?

Because things happen to CDs. Pets knock boxes off of shelves. People drop things. Sit on them without noticing they're there (my original Win98 CD went this way, lucky I'd copied it beforehand).

I'd love to do the same with my games too. Nothing wrong there.

And then there's the foreign games market. Playstations, un-modded, won't play import games, which renders a decently large portion of the population who want certain games unable to get them.

Me? I have been tempted over and over to mod my PS2. Why? DANCE DANCE REVOLUTION. Plainly put, the American versions SUCK.

The Japanese versions have all the cool music. The Americanized versions' music have all sucked by comparison. Haven't tried Ultramix, rather scared of it to be honest.

The article's blatant partisan writing better suited to the editorial page than to being presented as a "factual" article.

Scratched CD's

[gandy909]

As the father of several small children, I can personally attest that before I bought a CD burner for the PC, I had to, on several occasions, buy a game a second time because of mishandled CD's by the children. We have 3 retail copies of Counterstrike. I recently had to buy a 2nd copy of Tony Hawk 3 for my son, but he 'doesn't know how' the first one got toasted, and I can't see any physical defect on it either, but it refuses to boot on our PS2 or the neighbors anymore. As soon as the price drop on the PS2 hits I will be getting another one and sending it right off to be modded for that very reason. We DO buy lots of games, and rent several PS2 titles regularly.
(substitute "chose to" for "had to" in the above if you wish, but don't lecture me on getting more when they tear it up. My sanity is worth more than the cost of a few games.)

OTOH, I won't lie and try to tell you I've never grabbed a few warez on occasion. I've grabbed plenty since my early C-64 days. I've bought plenty more. I might have taken a different path in life if I had not been utterly burned on 4 of the first 5 games I bought way back when. (Box art and product descriptions almost never matched up to the games indide in those days, and sometimes still don't!)

Besides, it's MY PS2 and no one is going to tell me I can't take the cover off and use a soldering iron on it. I'd do for spite.

XBMP

[Anonymous Coward]

The main reason i modded my xbox was to be able to play my media off the network with xbmp. Hell, i dont even own any xbox games, nor do I have any copies of games. I do have several emmulators so i can play old nes, snes, and sega games on the xbox, but they are loosing no money from me. My febel mind cannot keep up with the new games anyway (read: getting old).

You dastards!

[mdfst13]

By accessing the more exciting/better written games of the past, you are taking away potential XBox revenue from modern crap! What's wrong with you? How is Microsoft supposed to sell any games when you can play fun and exciting games from days past?

After all Microsoft has done for you (hey, you can buy an XBox for half production costs), you are morally obligated to purchase their games. Don't you understand anything? You act as if you didn't sign away your soul when you bought that XBox. Shame on you!

Re:Oh, no! They've brainwashed him!

[tekunokurato]

no, but it should be!

Don't forget the economy

[PetoskeyGuy]

RIAA and the like like to point to their falling sales to try to pass these laws. Personally I think it's just that with current poor economy people are buying less frivilous things like music and CD systems. I think I did read a study some one did that even showed a correlation, but I can't find it right now.

No one ever shows basic supply/demand graphs for file sharing either.

How many people would buy a CD for $10? Now how many would you buy music for 10 Megabytes of storage space and 30 seconds of search time. It downloads in the background while your doing other things so it doesn't even cost you download time. I'm not saying it's right, but neither is $10,000 or jail time for sharing a few songs.

Millions will trade songs for pennies a piece, and now they can. Patching the damn with lawsuits isn't going to stop the flood. That's why everything is moving to digital. Gotta "plug that analog hole"

HAWHAWHAWHAW

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the funniest thing I've read in the last 10 minutes. yUO = t3h fUnny!

Seriously, I laughed out loud.

not down

[Kohath]

The article doesn't say that revenues are down. Only the headline.

My Modded XBOX Helps the Industry

[Anonymous Coward]

After modding my XBOX, I've found that I still buy just as many games. Yes I download and ,quote unquote, steal games, but as it turns out, I never really play the games I download because they usually suck. The ones that really count I get excited about and go buy right away, or buy if it turns out that they are excellent after playing a pirated version.

As for legitimate uses:
As it has surely been mentioned several times, the XBOX makes a great Media Center.

I like being able to load a game without fiddling with the DVD and case.

And the reason I modded my xbox in the first place: so that I am able to hack Halo and other games (Hey if I hadn't modded my xbox, you guys wouldn't have flying warthogs and the bg turret mod!)

Having my XBOX modded has not hurt the gaming industry in any way because my spending habits have not changed. If anything I HELPED the industry. With my Halo and KoTOR mods, it could be argued that I helped to increase interest in these games and thus spur sales. Yes, it's not a strong argument, but it is certainly stronger than the argument that my piracy hurts the industry.

Perhaps there are more people out there that stopped buying games when they found they could get them for free, enough even to hurt the industry, but before I believe that hackers and pirates have hurt the industry, you will have to provide some evidence rather than an argument that follows a prejudiced logic.

both, eventually

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

The problem for the honest user of the system is that they want to play a backup game, or an import game, etc. The manufacturers of the system make it so hard to do this, that the easiest way to do this is to add a mod chip.

Once the mod chip is in, however, no matter your good intentions, the ability to pay $0 instead of $50 for your next game has a strong arm of persuasion.

Then again, one of the reasons (one, not the only reason) I went with the GameCube is that it is (so far) impossible to pirate games for. I know my limits, and how strong the temptation can be to pirate if given the opportunity.

Perhaps if the system vendors stopped the nonsensical practice of region-coding, and made it very easy and inexpensive to obtain replacement media copies if yours is damaged, the need for legitimate mod chips would be over, and the temptation to pirate would be removed from the living room.

What a dilemma...

[gfxguy]

Now I will say that yes, I do know that it's illegal. I don't kid myself by thinking "well, it's for a good cause, so it's OK". And that it probably wasn't the best morality lesson to teach the kid. But you know what...sometimes the moral thing to do isn't the best thing to do. So what....one kid who wasn't born to rich parents gets to enjoy his childhood a little more. I don't feel guilty about giving him that pleasure. Maybe that say more about society then piracy...

I'm don't want to slam you or anything for doing this, after all, I don't really know what I'd do myself (although I've never had/used/installed a mod chip).

First of all, as sad as this is going to sound, if someone couldn't afford a playstation they probably shouldn't have bought one. For someone that a playstation is a big purchase, they ought to have done their homework and figured out that the console is just the start - there's the memory and extra controller, and that doesn't even include a game.

Now ask yourself, is that kid going to be better off in 10 or 20 years because he had a playstation? I doubt it.

And indeed, the lesson you taught him was that if you can't afford it it's OK to steal it. Now, we're not talking about a loaf of bread to feed a starving family, we're talking about something entirely luxerious. TVs, video games, cellphones... these are all luxeries, not essentials.

So you've made the kid and his mom happy, which is fine, but I personally don't find your contribution to society positive. If you wanted to be magnanimous, you should have just bought him a couple of legal games. As others have pointed out, there are plenty of bargain priced and used games out there.

Really, when faced with a situation like this, ask what is going to be the best for the boy in the long run. Receiving stolen goods probably isn't the answer to that question.

Re:What a dilemma...

[IWorkForMorons]

Personally, I think the grandparent poster subscribes to the moral adage of a geek friend of mine: If you find a woman with a kid, you know she puts out.

And I'd personally like to say: FUCK YOU, you self-righteous bastard. Not ONCE did I ever think I was getting anything in return for this. And I especially didn't expect to get a good fuck out of the mother for it. I did this, because it was the only way I could give this kid what he wanted. I did this to spare his mother from hearing him ask "If I'm really really good, can I get this game for my birthday?", and then feel guilty if she couldn't. So fuck you. Sometimes there are people who will help without expecting anything in return.

Re:What a dilemma...

[spir0]

What I don't understand is why people need to give kids the latest greatest console, whether they can afford it or not.

on a local trading site (similar to ebay) you can get old segas - dreamcasts, megadrives (genesis in U.S.), master systems - old nintendos - SNES's, n64's - and old 2600's, all for very reasonable prices. The damn consoles and games are so cheap that I buy them and GIVE THEM AWAY or lend them to friends...

kids don't usually care, as long as they have games to play. young teens might, because johnny down the road has an xbox, but they'll get over it. especially when they learn they can have 10-20 games for every 1 that johnny buys for the same price.

Re:What a dilemma...

[sindarin2001]

Mr. AC, quite frankly, go screw yourself. If I had mod points, I would bury your comment. Flaming is one thing, making personal attacks against somebody you don't know, about situations you weren't in, and doing it as an AC is something far more heinous.

Re:What a dilemma...

[newhoggy]

Instead we should teach this kid the difference between stealing, copyright infringement and fair use.

Re:What a dilemma...

[Whelkman]

Copyright infringment is morally theft.

Morality and law, in practice, have little to do with one another. Copyright is not natural law, and, until the beginning of the industrial revolution, was not law at all. Somehow, society got by for millennia without such politics.

I pose a question to the authority on moral bankruptcy. Which has less societal value: pirating a handful of games to cheer up a young child (for whatever motivation) or coldly accusing people of using children in order to sleep with their "legalized prostitute" mothers? Don't worry. We all know the answer already.

XBox Media Player

[Jagasian]

I own a modded Xbox. I actually don't use a mod-chip, but instead use one of the software exploits... that way I get a free mod as opposed to a $50 mod.

Anyway, I haven't pirated a single Xbox game. Instead I use my Xbox to play music and movies, which is made possible by the modding and Xbox Media Player. I also use my Xbox as an emulation based console for playing old NES and SNES games.

Uh, does this mean ....

[RLW]

... for what ever reason if wanted to put windows on the XBox i could do this with a mod chip and a windows CD ? Would a USB keyboard and mouse work and the dislpay is just the tv out ?

Re:Uh, does this mean ....

[MoonBuggy]

USB keyboards and mice do work on the Xbox in certain standard setup screens and the standard, unmodded system is running a custom Win2k kernel, so it is probably possible. Whether it is doable without access to the source may be another matter, however.

Non-Pirating Modchips???

[SuperChuck69]

Non-piracy and non-backup uses were COMPLETE ignored in this article!

Yeah, sure you can fit all the backup nerds into a Caddy, but how many busses can you fill with people who mod their Xbox for purposes OTHER than pirating or backing up games?

Personally, I have no interest in purchasing or ripping off Xbox games, but with the recent pricecut to $150, it looks like it would make a great platform for a little media center box... Easy to hook into an ethernet or wireless LAN, optional component output, digital audio output, yummy!

So how am I hurting the game industry? I'm burning Microsoft for using questionable business practices. You see, Microsoft sells them Xbox units at a loss, hoping to make up that loss in market share. So when I buy an Xbox and mod it to do something else, they've lost money on the sale of the thing without gaining the long-term value of market share or future game sales. Poor microsoft.

Re:Non-Pirating Modchips???

[Anonymous Coward]

Well from reading slashdot, I can say they will be able to fill one bus, and still have plenty of room left to fill it up the rest of those who just want to run Linux.

My experience w/ mod chips

[Tsu-na-mi]

I installed a mod chip in my PSX (PS1) back in 1997 or so. Over the years I used it to play TWO (2) legitimate import games and probably 200+ copied games, almost all imports. Over the life of my PSX I bought probably 40-50 games, and still have about 25-30 of them.

I bought the 2 import games because one was for sale at my local EB for like $8. The other was such an incredibly rare puzzle game that I never saw a copy floating around on the net, ever.

Most of the rest of my copied games were never offered for sale in the US, so I do not feel as I have really cost the games industry anything. I was never a potential customer in their eyes, since my PSX would never have been able to play their games. Obscure fighting games (Lightning Legend, Gundam Battle Master), music games (beatmania, Pop'n Music), puzzle games (Puzzle Arena Toshinden, CC Sakura tetris, Magical Drop 3), anime games (Cowboy Bebop, lots of Gundam and Macross games), and even a few neat original games (Speedpower Gunbike).

Some of my copied games were released in the US. Some inspired me to buy legit US copies (Japanese GT2 made me want to buy US GT2, etc.). Others were so bad they saved me the trouble of buying or renting them. In all, I spent a fair amount of money on legit NTSC-US games and SONY-brand peripherals. In all I bought FOUR additional controlers (1 regular, one dual analog, 2 dual-shock), two memory cards, a mouse (for the mousepad mostly, plus it was only like $5), and the Konami lightgun.

I'm sure there are some people who buy modded consoles and never buy games, but I think those people are rare. Most of my friends who had modded PSX or Dreamcast or whatever bought a lot of legit games. They just didn't pay for the crap ones.

I recently took to downloading PS2 games off usenet. My PS2 is not modded (yet) so I have not played any of them. Most of them are imports. I see little need to download and burn games I can easily buy at the mall or online for $15-$40. But for import games that would cost me $75 (assuming I could find them), plus shipping, plus they might suck, plus they might have too much japanese in them for me to play... It's just not worth the risk to me. So I download those. At worst, I'm out $2 for a blank DVDR or two.

In all, SONY has made a lot of money off me. I have bought 2 PS2s (first one quit reading CD games), an extra controller, 2 mem cards, and 3rd-party stuff including extension cords, DJ controllers (for bemani games), etc. I also have about 12-15 games. 2-3 of which I have never actually played yet (despite having them for 6-12 months or more).

Hurting the industry? sure, some titles sales will be hurt, but I think it increases a console's popualrity and drives higher overall sales of both hardware and software. If you can afford to buy say 6 games a year, a console does not look so appealing aan investment. However if you can buy 6 games and get another 20 for free... It looks better.

Another reason MS will loose the living room

[RichMan]

This just shows another reason Microsoft will loose the war for the living room. They are not serving the customer. In a consumer market like the "TV appliance" space it will be enabling the consumer that generates loyal satisfied customers.

------------------
EX1:
Bob buys brand X digital TV recorder
Sally buys brand Y.

Sally can skip commercials. Bob can't. When Bob sees what Sally's machine can do he will think his unit is "defective" and will not have a positive view of the brand.
-----------------

You can see this in Eurpoe where Region 1 DVD hacking is omni-present. It is not a big deal in north america as Region 1 is the region to be in for most people. Most of the hacking in NA is by people trying to get Japanese imports.

-----------------
EX 2
Dave's machine can frame capture and send via email. Bob feel's his machine is "broken" again because he can't forward great plays to his friends
-----------------

You can continue to come up with examples like these that are quite simple features to implement but are "very bad" digital rights operations.

Secondary Xbox

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a modified xbox AND a generic one. I use the modified one to let my 3 year old son play movies and games, without scratching the DVDs. This is a great way to entertain little kinds, and doesn't require extra hardware (such as the DVD remote).

I personally use my generic Xbox for the Live service, which is not easily available on a modified machine. XboxLive will make or break the platform, not the games or game pirates.

Article is stupid

[theLOUDroom]

I modded my own PS2. Guess how many pirated games I have?
NONE.

I modded my PS2 so I can use it to play imports, and region DVD's, VCD's, MP3's and do whatever else I want. I also did it just for the principle of the thing:
Every DVD player I own is region-free and has no lockouts.

I'm not about to have MY hardware tell me what I can and can't do.

If my car had a speed limiter, I'd remove that too. If I own the equipment, I'm not about to let someone else impose stupid, artificial restrictions on what I can do.

Not a problem on the GameCube

[tunabomber]

If I'm not mistaken, it's much harder (though not impossible) to pirate games on the GameCube, thanks to its proprietary DVD format. Eventually, someone will come up with a way to pirate GameCube games that is as user-friendly as the methods for copying PS2 and XBox titles, but by then the point will probably be moot as Nintendo will be releasing a new system.

Re:Not a problem on the GameCube

[Rallion]

And everybody said it wouldn't make a difference!

Re:Not a problem on the GameCube

[josh glaser]

Yeah. They even spin backwards ^_^

Re:Not a problem on the GameCube

[jmarr]

The GC's been cracked! There have been GC Disc images available for download on the net for quite some time, but until recently, there was no way to burn or play them. Now there is a program you run on your computer and it streams the game data from your PC to the GameCube via ethernet. spiffy! I only know a few people that have modded Xboxes and NONE of them pirate games! They use them for media centers or to play their Xbox games backed up - well, actually their children play Xbox backed up Xbox games from the harddrive - no discs to lose or scuff-up! This argument is similar to the Music Biz screaming bloody murder about P2P's. But studies are more consistently showing that people are much more trustworthy than the greedy Suits so readily want all of us to believe.

well

[randomdef]

I'm a pirate, I modded my xbox for one reason only, to play pirated games. No excuses, I'm just cheap and stealing is effective.

It's "journalism"

[Chris Burke]

Nobody takes the time to do any research. The concept of "investigative reporting" is virtually dead. Actually research an issue themselves? Why, when they can just use corporate PR as their source? The can paint the picture they want, and they still get the eyeballs. Turns out most people can't tell the difference between well-reaserched journalism and mostly made up pulp. Or people can, and whatever feedback mechanism is supposed to correct this simply isn't working.

Sold my Modded Xbox

[Lord_Rion]

My $0.02 worth:

I sold my Modded Xbox about a year ago. I never really used it to pirate any games. Although I did extend my use of a few rented ones for a couple of days. I sold it and bought a new Xbox that has not, and most likely, will not be Modded. The guy I sold it to knows there's a mod chip in there.. thinks it's great, but wouldn't know how to use it if his life depended on it.

I personally think that all the time waisted on trying to install the mod chip, keep the software current and then to copy and store the games is alot more trouble then just buying the 2 or 4 titles a year I really want and renting the rest.

Re:Sold my Modded Xbox

[AvengerXP]

Not to mention the risk you take by giving your Box and modding it to someone you barely know (or the risk of modding period, mistakes happens), which gives you no guarantee it will come back in 1 piece and fully functional. No honor amongst thieves.

Ahh, import games

[cheezhed]

The only way to experience the splendor of homerotic sci-fi combat: http://www.encyclopedia-obscura.com/gamescho.html

my experience...

[kasek]

most people i have come across that are big into the import scene also import the system, so mod chips arent required.

most people i have come across that have modded their system have done so in order to play copied games.

so i would say the article isn't too far off.

And in other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

the Boston Globe's Hiawatha Bray describes Linux users as pirates who mod their computers and damage Microsoft's OS monopo... err... industry revenue.

Why just pirate that console's games...

[TLSPRWR]

When you can pirate other systems games on there as well?

To Chip or Not To Chip ?!?

[WildThing]

I have gone back and forth on two fronts -

1. Do I think ModChips are illegal/immoral ?
2. Do I want to have one?

The first question is just a personal one - I am probably guilty of "cutting corners" just like everyone else, but I *DO* try to be as honest and ethical as a person can be.

That aside,I have wondered if there *could* be a valid use for Mod chips- recently I have seen a VERY real reason.... a 14 year old step-son. Why?? Because he treats his game discs like frisbee and the get scratched beyond recognition. You can't send them back and get a replacement or even a replacement at a reduced cost. You want it replaced, go buy the game again. He has right now over 10 games that won't read and from the looks of them nothing could possibly make them read ever again. So there went $500(US)! Therefore there Is a valid legal use for mod chips. So.. if the game industry wants mod-chips to go away.. start a replacement dics program. Just about All PC software companies do this already, so why not the console game companies ??

Both sides are nuts

[dougthonus]

I think this issue is overblown. 1) The people who use mod chips are by and large pirates. I'm suprised anyone would even reasonably argue against that case. Yeah, there are probably a handful of people trying to write emulators, run linux or some other such thing which is in the grey area legally, but the vast majority just want free games. 2) The console companies are not losing that much money on mod chips. First, not that many people have them. Second, the people who have them may play hundreds of games on them, but would have likely bought very few of those games if they didn't have the chip. I'd find it likely that companies spend more money fighting this issue then the issue costs them.

Re:Oh, no! They've brainwashed him!

[Sparks23]

But with games...what's the motive?? I just don't see any good reason to stop us from playing games we bought legally from or in another country.

I don't know if the reason is a /good/ one, but the logic goes something like this.

Let's say a company, called 'DevHouse,' makes a game over in Japan called 'CoolGame.' A publisher, 'Shoten,' puts this game out. It gets rave reviews, and players in the US start slavering over it. But due to contract stuff, and then localization and all, it takes a long time before the game is picked up by a US publisher, call them 'Electronic Crafts.' Now, especially if the game is something like a fighting game where translation is not really required, a lot of the diehard gamers that Electronic Crafts would like to sell CoolGame to have already bought the imported copy. The profits for the game sales go to Shoten, not EC, because the gamers -- having already played CoolGame and owning the import -- are not inclined to buy the US release. EC is unhappy.

The same thing is more or less true for DVDs/movies as well, not just the theater example you give. For instance, look at anime fans. A lot of the diehard ones can read or speak Japanese... and for that matter, a surprising number of Japanese anime DVDs (though still nowhere near a majority) have English subtitles as an option these days. For the diehard fan who doesn't really care about the dub, they go buy the import DVDs. As a result, when some US company picks up the rights two or three years later, lots of folks have already watched the DVD and go 'nah, got it.'

Doesn't mean region lockout is necessarily a good or bad thing -- personally, I dislike it, because some of my favorite games are never brought over here -- but the logic behind it is to protect publisher rights in different regions, since the publisher of something in one country is not necessarily the same publisher as in another country.

Make Room For Me

[anewsome]

I've had 3 Xboxes, all modded. First with mod chips and then with the chipless mods. I've never copied a game or even backed up a legit game. So, yes there are people who want to mod their console and have no intention on Pirating games. Scoot over and make room in that caddy for me.

Mod Chip Up

[alex_tibbles]

Did anyone else parse that as 'MOD CHIP UP!' where chip must be a user?

People interested in backups/imports

[subsonic]

Actually, if it was possible to easily backup your dvds or games, I'm sure there would be more people who would legally do it. Just like people who used to copy their CDs to listen to in their cars or walkmen. Just as there are tons of people who want to play imported games on their domestic consoles (or foreign dvds on domestic players). Wouldn't having one standard for making these games and consoles be cheaper in the long run?

The other thing that seems missing in the article is any rationale to the practices of region encryption and the like are justified. he just says that people buy mod chips to play foreign games, and makes it sounds like there's something wrong with doing this.
I cannot find any justifiable reason to not allow people to play games or watch movies from anywhere in the world. I can listen to a CD i bought in Japan, but I can't watch a DVD from Japan. Why not?

I "mod" my Game Boy Advance

[defile]

Which is to say that I can write a game ROM to flash cart, which I've never bothered to do.

The reason I have one is because I think it's cool as hell to program my GBA.

I pay for games, but it's not because I care about artist's copyright. The honest trust is because it's simply not worth my time since GBA games are so cheap, especially if used.

If they cost $50 apiece I'd probably have already found a ZIP file with every GBA game ever made in it.

Re:I "mod" my Game Boy Advance

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah right, and I bet all you use that flash card to play only homebrew games and games that you legally dumped on your own. Funny you think it is cool to have one, but don't seem to be using it for your intended programming use.

Your post sounds like the typical slashbot reply claiming that you pay for things, but in reality you don't, and are just using it as an excuse to jusify your actions.

Re:I "mod" my Game Boy Advance

[defile]

Well, I haven't completed my pet project yet so I can't really say that I've downloaded a "game" to the flash cart.

I have no problem ignoring copyright, in fact, I plainly said I would if GBA games cost $50 or if a ZIP file with every GBA game ever made falls into my lap. But it's not worth my time to look because I can usually find a game for around $10 used.

I'm probably not the ideal GBA customer, especially since I'm over 16. *shrug*

Re:I "mod" my Game Boy Advance

[Anonymous Coward]

so in essence, you're bashing him for merely owning a flashcart, even though HE SPECIFICALLY SAID HE CODES FOR THE GBA.

you probably also think the flashcarts out for the sega genesis are illegal too. even though they don't let you dump standard carts.

fuck you, asshole.

Back ups

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the piracy concerns are real, but I just want a modded console to play Japanese games that will never come over to the US. If I am buying licenses to the software, provide me with copies if my physical copy breaks and get rid of region-coding.

Then there won't be any BS backup reasons

hah

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who doesn't think most people with chipped/hacked consoles are doing it for pirated games is kidding themselves.

Imports?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll be honest. My consoles are modified. I've never pirated a console game, but I do play a lot of Japanese imports. It's either modify or spend another $300 per system on Japanese versions of the exact same hardware. I know which one Sony would prefer. In other news, Sony can fucking kiss my ass. The whole concept of regional lockouts in this day and age is completely absurd.

Most gamers I know with real jobs would much rather go to Best Buy and spend $50 to get a nice, packaged version of a good game with pretty box art and a manual than spend three days downloading a 4.5 GB image off of BitTorrent and burning it to a $10 DVD-R with a $400 DVD burner. The people I know without real jobs couldn't afford to buy many games at retail prices anyway.

And seriously, how many people are there in the world that play pirated GameCube games? Three?

some legitimate users, mostly not

[ALpaca2500]

what are the ligitimate uses for a mod chip? backing up your own games, so the original discs don't get damaged. fine. playing , e.g., japanese games on a US console. good. running linux on an x-box. microsoft may not agree with it, but i think that's a valid use.

however, i'm willing to bet that the number of users that are using it to play copied games outweighs any other use. of course there is probably a lot of overlap, people using it for one or more legitimate use, and also playing copied games.

i don't think mod chips should be illegal, when they have legitimate uses. this is the same argument used by proponents of p2p. don't stifle the technology, just because you can use it to play copied games. sometimes people want to try a game before they lay down $50 for it (of course that's what blockbuster is for, but we can ignore that for now...) and sometimes it's easier to download than find someone who has a copy. and again, instead of focusing on the individual users, what about going after the people who are selling or otherwise distributing pirated games. (actually, i remember on one of the playstation undergroud discs that came with my PS1, they had videos of cops showing up at some guy's house and confiscating thousands of copied games...)

anyway, that's what i think.

Games cost to much!

[Anonymous Coward]

$50+ for a game? Give me a break. THAT's why there's modding.

I'm sure this has been brought up before...

[barfarf]

... but I'm going to say it anyhow. Mod me redundant if you want... Personally, I hardly ever even use my xbox for xbox games, but there's plenty of uses for a modded one. I use it for:

1. Xbox media player - www.xboxmediaplayer.de. It's the only box I have that's been able to play almost every video or music format available, and it will stream it or store it onto the hard drive. I'm able to store entire seasons of my divx rips from DVD of my tv shows. This thing just rocks.

2. The emulators - I still love mame and mameox (IMHO) works great with the xbox. Also, it can do 2600, intellivision, colecovision, atari lynx, gba, genesis, turbografix, daphne, nes, snes, n64, atari 800, atari st, and apple II emulators. Get the usb keyboard adapter and you're set.

3. Copying games to the hard drive - I have 3 kids - and with their hands all over the discs all of the time, it's convient and it's useful to be able to save discs to the hard drive and not worry about the condition of them. My copy of Halo is almost dead, but now I don't have to worry about it.

The PS2 can do some of this modded, but nowhere near the extent of the xbox (yet).

Alternative to mod chips

[GoldenWolf]

One of the reasons that people put MOD chips in their consoles is not because of the desire to pirate games, etc. I don't know about the PS2 and Gamecube, but I know that Xbox has a signed code chip that only allows signed code--code that was either written or published by Microsoft--to run. I might want to run code that is not published by Microsoft on my XBox.
Linux on Xbox is free--how could they afford to pay Microsoft royalties? Linux can increase the functionality of the Xbox quite a bit, for free.
Of course, this could also be considered a threat by Microsoft. For example, you could download MPlayer and play DVDs for free, instead of paying some inflated price for MS's DVD playback kit.
Once again, this is a case of Proprietary vs. Open Source. If Microsoft would just give Linux the code signer, and market the XBox as a low-cost game system and PC, they could make more money, and afford to make the price higher.
The XBox could be marketed to a wider audience. Home users who don't want the compatibility problems, Windoze problems, etc that come with a PC could use an XBox to write their emails and letters.
The XBox could be sold for more. As I recall, Microsoft is losing about $100 per XBox sold. If they sold the XBox for say $200 then they could make more of a profit
Even after the price increase, the XBox would be cheaper than a PC because you wouldn't need to purchase the monitor (since most people have a TV in their house) and you wouldn't need to pay some outrageous price for a license of buggy Windows.
By allowing unsigned code on the Xbox, less people would have to use mod chips, which would keep Microsoft and others happier.

Once again, Microsoft is not marketing their products properly. If they could, they could still make a profit selling the games, and make a profit selling the consoles. And you wouldn't need a mod chip unless you were illegally copying software.

-- GoldenWolf

I have a mod, but don't pirate!

[Boltronics]

I have a PS2. All games are legal, and I never considered a mod chip for it. I purchased the device the month they came out in Australia.

I also have a Dreamcast I purchased from the USA on eBay. Although it wasn't advertised, the device actually came with a mod chip installed, so I gave GNU/Linux a try. I got it all to boot, and had the mouse working. The keyboard I brought wasn't official however and refused to work. Typing commands using the middle button to copy and paste characters at the console is no fun. ;)

Anyway, I brought 3 or 4 games for it (one imported from the USA, and the rest brought here). I am unsure if playing games from other regions is legal, however I certainly have never used a mod chip for pirating.

My XBOX Home Media Center

[lordmage]

I had tried to use a PC with TV out and it was extremely lame.. and then I ran across

www.xbox-scene.com

and found out what I could really do.

Now with my Linux server up, I have a modded (NON-CHIP mod.. you dont need a chip) Xbox that has Xbox Media Center, DVD Region Free Player, and a host of fun utilities. I now connect directly to my Linux server and view pr0n or Music Videos (for the kids, they LOVE them). I may make a backup of a game to HD to play at anytime so I dont have to search for the Disk. However..

I have not played but maybe 3 games on the Xbox (and I own them all.. Robotech Battlecry rocks). because to me.. its the best use of my TV as a Media Center.

I dont know a person who has a modded XBox that pirates the DVD's. Its too annoying to play those crap games when you have great games on the PC anyways.

Of course, the PC sales are way off because of pirates too.. but thats for others to debunk.

Heres the kicker. I would not have purchased an Xbox if not for the ability to stream video over my LAN to it.

It's freedom fighting not piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Game manufacturers get paid WAY too much anyways. With their skills they could actually be doing something productive. Game design is a hobby not a career. Get a haircut and get a real job ya bums.

The point : You should be lucky people are willing to pay you anything at all to develop games for a living. Maybe you should have taken some economics in school, you'd know that the market sets the price.. and aparently the market thinks you overcharge BY A LOT!

The silly concept of lost profit due to piracy

[master_p]

If people did not pirate those games, they would not buy it, because of the high cost. People that own pirated copies have hundrends of games, and they usually do it for the sake of having a collection that they can be proud of; it's not that they have played through all those games.

So, the claim of "piracy makes profit lost" is utterly BS. If people did not pirate those games, they would not buy it. The profits are not lost, because they simply do not exist.

It is the same situation with music. People copy the songs, but they would never buy them. Yet the corporative sharks come out and yell "its those damn pirates that are killing our business!".

I wonder how much greedier these people can become. It's not that they already have anything a mere mortal can't have, they are asking for more!!! have mercy!!!

Re:Oh, no! They've brainwashed him!

[PongStroid]

Region encoding is useful only for logistically lazy businesses and serves to hide underlying business problems.

The profits for the game sales go to Shoten, not EC, because the gamers -- having already played CoolGame and owning the import -- are not inclined to buy the US release. EC is unhappy.

EC has a simple non-technical way of dealing with their revenue stream problem: Minimize the delay between the initial release and the US release. Really, that's all they need to do.

Delays due to contract/localization should be phrased as business problems that need to be addressed. Get the distribution contract in place BEFORE the initial release. Have a localization team and hand-off plan in place at the time of initial release.

Is it too expensive to do so? Who knows? In any event, no whining is allowed if your 'potential' customer imports your product before you're ready to ship. You had a chance to get it to them in a timely manner, and clearly decided it wasn't worth it.

Ever heard of a CD rip?

[tepples]

the game manufacturers could have *easily* made uncopyable games [for consoles that use GD-ROM or DVD-ROM media] by padding out the game with semi-random data to > 700 MB and checksumming random blocks in the padded out region, effectively making it impossible to burn them onto a standard CD-R.

And watch the pirates produce a patch to remove such checks. If pirates are satisfied with ripping out the music and videos in some games, why not?

Re:Ever heard of a CD rip?

[Abcd1234]

Yeah, true enough... the alternative is to just make your game really big... > 700 MB big. :) Then, you literally *can't* pirate it because it won't fit on a standard CD-R.

Re:Oh, no! They've brainwashed him!

[ymgve]

EC is unhappy.

Well, boo fucking hoo. Welcome to the global marketplace.

It shouldn't matter either. Since the game is already finished (sans translation and localization), for the new publisher there's next to no developement costs to think about. Just add a little marketing into the mix and pump out the DVDs. It's so cheap to do that it should only take a few thousand copies to break even.

GameCube discs do NOT spin backwards

[tepples]

Nope. Open your Cube while playing Smash Bros. Watch it slow down until you can clearly see that a GameCube spins discs clockwise (viewed from label side) just like a CD, GD, or DVD drive. The "spins backwards" rumors may have come from the fact that the Xbox is known to read the boot sector at the beginning of the second layer (which runs in-to-out as opposed to the first layer's out-to-in), and the GameCube is thought to do the same.

Re:GameCube discs do NOT spin backwards

[Anonymous Coward]

the second layer (which runs in-to-out as opposed to the first layer's out-to-in)

Don't you have those backwards? The FIRST layer of a DVD goes in-to-out, just like a CD. The SECOND layer goes out-to-in like a typical vinyl record.

What's worse, handling damages the outside tracks of an optical disc more easily than the inside tracks. I'm beginning to think that Microsoft's choice of how to lay out the file system exacerbates "dirty or damaged disc" errors on Xbox games.

EC rep: "How can we know whether it'll sell?"

[tepples]

Get the distribution contract in place BEFORE the initial release. Have a localization team and hand-off plan in place at the time of initial release.

Unless Electronic Crafts and all the other major North American publishers refuse to distribute the work without both 1. waiting to see how popular the product is in the developer's home country, in order to gather data for an analysis of whether localization would be profitable, and 2. scoring an exclusive distribution contract.

Re:EC rep: "How can we know whether it'll sell?"

[aonaran]

1. waiting to see how popular the product is in the developer's home country, in order to gather data for an analysis of whether localization would be profitable

That argument doesn't explain why different countries with the same official language are in different zones though does it?

I'm not sure what the zones for Playstation are but DVD puts Hong Kong, UK, and Australia in 3 different regions, but they are all english speaking, PAL, and 220-224V 50Hz power.

Parallel imports of patented inventions

[tepples]

Is it also illegal to buy a DVD player in the UK and use a 240v -> 120v converter and PAL/NISC converter so I can play it on my American TV using my American electrical supply?

Yes. DVD Video is patented. Both MPEG-2 video and Dolby Digital audio are patented processes. The DVD Forum will not permit use of MPEG-2 and Dolby Digital audio except in conforming DVD players. A conforming DVD player must also implement Macrovision copy protection, another patented process. United States patent law prohibits parallel import of devices embodying inventions under a subsisting patent without permission from all patent holders.

Disclaimer: Take this with a grain of salt and ask your attorney.

the other way around....

[xshader]

what about all those people who wouldnt even buy a console unless you can mod it? the amount of people who buy consoles just because you can mod it must be accounted for somehwere in there...

personally, i wouldnt even buy an xbox/ps2 if i couldnt mod it and run all those emulators, media players and other cool utilities. my xbox is a media hub to my computers and rarely plays any retail games. 98% of the commercial games out right now are just crap anyway.

TV standards

[tepples]

European, Russian, Australian, and Chinese TVs are 50 Hz (PAL or SECAM). North American and Japanese TVs are 60 Hz (NTSC). Brazilian TVs are PAL hacked to run at 60 Hz. PC TV cards and higher-end TV sets can typically display multiple video standards.

Seems the obvious solution...

[Kell Bengal]

It seems the obvious solution to me is for the console developers to sell modchips of their own, patent the technology and then sell them at a cost that they feel will offset their losses due to piracy.

That way, anyone else trying to sell modchips for their new console gets done for patent infringement, they make the same revenue and people who really 'need' modchips for whatever can have them for a small outlay.

Does that mean they can't rape their users on import games? Well... yess... but that cost will be defered by the cost of the modchip.

Thoughts?

-Kell

DMCA may make EULAs binding

[tepples]

Since shrinkwrap EULAs are generally considered to be an invalid legal document (you haven't signed anything, and you can purchase and thus own the product without agreeing to the EULA, you don't have to agree to it to remove it from the store for example) the only thing standing in your way is the DMCA.

The DMCA itself may make clickwrap and possibly even shrinkwrap EULAs binding. When you buy a clickwrapped program, you are buying a set of meaningless bits that have meaning only once you have run the installer. When you run the installer, an offer of a contract appears, the consideration being that the publisher will decrypt the software in return for disclaimer of warranty, prohibition of reverse engineering, and all the other BS that the publishers like to throw into EULAs. Once the user has clicked "I Accept", you have Offer + Acceptance + Consideration = Binding Contract. You can't decrypt the software without going through the installer because the installer is an access control mechanism under the DMCA. Under a publisher's hypothetical strained interpretation of the DMCA, a common piece of shrinkwrap with the EULA printed on it is also an access control mechanism.

Piracy Aids sales

[xxScoobyxx]

If it can be read it can be written They know this before they start up software companies, before they write the new software titles. If I only have $50 I can by one game. If I pirate 10 games have they lost out on $500, remember I only have $50. How many games are bought because the Pirate version is so good but broken (can't play online etc) 2000 titles to choose from. No way of testing. Only have $50. You do the math. Piracy is a pure marketing tool without the crap and hype. They don't like it because they can't control it. Pirates buy games .... they just buy the good ones with their $50.

Cromwell BIOS

[tepples]

If you can write your own BIOS for the chip and throw it in an X-Box and make it work, you are free and clear.

You're talking about the Cromwell BIOS, available here, right?

Bongs are...

[Cyno01]

Bongs, or water pipes as they have to legally be called, are perfectly legal if sold with the "For Legal Tobacco Use Only" disclamer. Crack pipes on the other hand are designed quite differently from a normal pipe used to smoke your choice of dried leaves, as crack has to be heated to a higher temperature iirc. Crack pipes are banned most places.

modchips

[Anonymous Coward]

ok OF all the piracy bashing im hearing it gets a bit old, truth about it... once you've tried its pretty damn fun. the reason the minority who do do it because its the thrill of having the world on a platter be it a 300gig drive in a xbox with more shit than it can hold or a hacked dss system WHO IN THE HELL uses a dvd-r for legit backups all the time, NO you get one for the intent of ripping movies, its a never ending game you can CBM all you want and it wont stop,

AND as an owner of a caddy i can tell you first hand the spare tire is UNDER the trunk deck on all models and has been for awhile, so save that room for the few who use a mod chip legitly.

how do you think playstation got famous?

[buht]

now think.. if the ps1 was never hacked/modded then a lot less of them would have been sold. same for ps2 and xbox currently. up the price on your console systems :)

and expats?

[spare.dave]

I used to live in America and Australia. Now I live in Japan. Like anyone else, I buy the media from the country I'm living in. Because of this, I have a fairly varied variety of games and dvd's from three different regions.

This leaves me with the option of buying multiple players or media, or using a mod chip. Personally, I prefer to only pay for something ONCE.

If sony or whoever wants to tell me that playing my legally purchased games in a legally purchased system is illegal, then they can go fuck themselves.

The Xbox changed things.

[sycomonkey]

Before the Xbox? No. Modchips where almost entirely for pirating. There was a bit of import stuff done by the hardcore-but-poor that couldn't afford a foriegn console. But the Xbox "scene", from what I see, seems to be the most legitimate ever. People convert Xbox's into media centers and much more without copying any XBox games at all. Not that I have any particular problem with small amounts of piracy. I have problems with people who pirate to the exclusion of buying software legitimately. But companies think differently, and I don't really begrudge them that.

Yes, they're pirates

[Hecatonchires]

Get over yourself. Games are expensive - avg $90 AUD each. People see a modchip (cost of two, maybe three games for a good one) as a price effective thing - pirated games cost $10 AUD if bought from a capital P Pirate.

No matter what you may think of your hobby of Xbox/ps2 hacking, you are a minority. Games consoles are primarily sold TO PLAY GAMES.

Sheesh.

And my gut feeling is...

[Xhad]

The majority of mod chip users I know have like two pirated games and upwards of ten or twelve Japanese games they can't play on a US system. Somehow I don't think this is the most scientific way to go.

What about the modders?

[doombob]

What about the poor college students whose only source of income is to mod Xboxes? I know some people who offer to mod peoples' Xboxes for a small fee plus the price of all of the parts.

Anyway, the people I know just want to be able to either run a game off of the much faster hard drive or test out a game longer than Blockbuster allows (which I know isn't right, but some games are so long, renting them just isn't enough time!). Sometimes they actually buy the game that they rented, you know.

Italian Court: "Modification of Sony PS is Legal"

[Anonymous Coward]

Original document:
http://www.ipjustice.org/media/release2 0040112_en. shtml

January 28, 2004

Contact:

Law Professor Giovanni Ziccardi, IP Justice Board Member
Phone: +39-340-7966516
Email: gio@ziccardi.org

Italian Court Rejects First EU Copyright Directive Seizure
Rules Modification of Sony Playstations is Legal

(Bolzano, Italy) In an important victory for Italian consumer rights, an Italian court has rejected the seizure of Sony Playstation game consoles that use modified chips to permit unauthorized uses of the game systems. The case is one of the first to be brought in Italy under the new European Union Copyright Directive (EUCD), which is modeled on the controversial US Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA).

As reported in the January 8, 2004 Italian newspaper, "Alto Adige" the court of Bolzano issued an important decision concerning Italian consumers? rights and declared illegal the December 12, 2003 seizure of modified media equipment.

The question before the Italian court was simple: Does the producer of a device or computer, such as the Sony Play Station Console, have the right to forbid or prevent consumers from making different uses of the device other than the particular use the manufacturer intends? According to this court?s decision under Italian civil law, the answer is no.

The case was brought under article 171-ter of the Italian copyright law, which implements the EUCD in Italy and was passed in April of 2003.

"The Bolzano Court ruled that the new law does not apply because the modified chips are not primarily intended to circumvent copyright protection measures," explained University of Milano Law Professor Giovanni Ziccardi. "The court held that the aim of the modified chips is not to create infringing copies, but rather to fight Sony?s monopolistic business practices and to allow consumers to exercise a fuller range of their rights such as reading imported discs, back-up copies of games, and other lawful but unauthorized discs," said Ziccardi, IP Justice Board Member in Italy.

The operation started in 2003 and involved dozens of searches and seizures throughout Italy. The case began out of an international campaign waged by Sony: the company always contested the rights of the consumer to make the game console function differently from the use intended by the manufacturer. Or in other words, Sony hoped to forbid any "unauthorized" use of the game console by its owner.

The Italian decision of December 31, 2003, signed by the President of the Bolzano Court, Judge Edoardo Mori, declared illegal the equipment seizures ordered by local authorities during a major anti-piracy operation that dealt with the modification of Playstation consoles.

The judge said that Sony put into Playstation consoles "absurd limitations". For example the consoles can only read discs from one geographical region and can only read discs manufactured by Sony. According to the court?s decision, Sony divided the world into three areas, and the Italian Playstation consoles cannot read discs, for example, intended for the American market, and vice-versa. Besides the region-coding restrictions, Sony?s consoles can only read original discs, so many legitimate copies cannot be read by Sony?s equipment either.

Due to these restrictions, innovators had created a new chip for less than a couple of dollars that restored all the Sony game console?s original functionality, enabling it to read all discs from all markets. The Italian court ruled that the manufacture and use of this type of chip is not illegal.

The Italian law on copyright is not applicable to this case either said the court because one who is the owner of a product, (such as a game console) can use their property in the widest manner possible. According to the Italian judge, one who buys a Sony Playstation console is permitted to make all potential uses of that game console.

The court said that the primary function of S

High Prices

[Mecanico]

I have always thought that videogames were a little bit overpriced for some markets. Here in Mexico, a usual console game (it has to be imported from the US ALWAYS) runs for about $50. Now if you mod your console the same $50, you can buy your pirate game for $5.

If we consider that the minimum salary in Mexico is $2 a day (Yes DAY, middle class workers earn a little over $10-$20), then the Idea of modding your console to be able to get your pirate games for $5 seems tempting for anyone in this condition ... I think it could be similar for other 3rd world countries. Now, I don't know if it would were any different if they had the money anyways ;)

So, getting only one tenth of the revenue, I find it hard for videogame companies to turn in any profits.

I thought it was stupid at first, but they were right... I have never seen pirate N64 games... I think it was effective to stop pirates although it certainly limited the console... oh well, food for the thought.

My PSX mod chip

[Kris_J]

I got my PSX modded a while back just after it was ruled in Australia to be legal. I have never put a pirated or backup game in the machine. I used it purely to allow me to play MP3 CDs (created from my legit music collection) using a (Japanese) hardware MP3 add-on without having to do the disc swap thing. Bonus: the menu went colour after the mod chip was installed.

I have since moved on to my PS2 with the official Linux kit which contains my music collection on the hard drive.

Re:Sure...(Let's outlaw everything.)

[evilWurst]

Yes. These are examples of potentially dangerous things that are legal because the benefits outweigh the risk.

I argue that filesharing networks fall under the same category. At heart, they're a logical evolutionary addition to the internet.

- they get data from those who have it to those who want it.

- they create a counter force stretching the internet's structure to a web, as it was originally envisioned, instead of a hub and spoke network of corporate owned and government regulated servers.

-- in doing so, they increase network efficiency by spreading things out, utilizing available proccessing power, and maintaining the stability of the network as originally intended - routing around damage.

- for better or worse, they make it much, much harder for buearocrats and lawyers to cripple the system. This is arguably a Good Thing in the long term.

We should be talking about how to make it better, not about how to write a law to shut it down.

no?

[corian]

game console hackers as software pirates who use mod chips and damage game industry revenue.

Oh, they're providing revenue to the game industry, all right. They're just supporting the Japanese game industry, not the domestic one.

Heres how I view it....

[Rooked_One]

right now, i'm a student working part time.

I do not have enough money to shell out 50 dollars everytime a decent game comes out, nor 6 dollars to rent a game for a week.

Therefore, a mod chip in my XBOX, I have (along with a little Yoda on the brain)

Does being broke justify what I do? Absolutly not, but until I have the means to purchase luxery items, I will REFUSE to be, in Marxist terms, a proletariat of this capitalist pig system. So uh... TAKE THAT MICROSOFT!

This isn't ment to troll or anything, so don't take it like that....

Also, another great thing my mod chip does is let me play those old arcade games, (which aren't anywhere anymore, and IMHO should be considered public domain) Super Nintendo, Genesis, ect games that I HAVE SPENT 50 dollars or so a pop in the past on. Just becuase I don't have a working NES doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to play those games that I still have the original Carts for. (and maybe a couple that I just "rented" ;) )

Oh yea... forgot to mention one VERY KEY item

[Rooked_One]

If it were not for the mod chip and the opportunities it presents, I would have NEVER boughten an XBOX... That still doesn't legitimize my actions, but its... lets see here... besides buying MS Flight Simulator 2000, the one that still had the twin towers in it (yes, call me a freak, but once I found they were going to take the towers out becuase you could fly in to them just like the hijackers, I had to have it) and no I have never really played the game for more than 5 minutes.... call me whatever, I would never hurt a fly.p? uhh... anyways, I don't think besides that particular game, i've ever purchaced a MS product besides my XBOX. So in the end, they did get money from me that they wouldn't have if it were not for the mod chip.

Re:Another possible cause for overall hurt sales..

[ZENMacster]

"Could it just be that way to many games that are coming out are overpriced, overproduced, exactly the same as the gameplay we've gotten before" Just a case of too little bang for your buck, and then to be unreasonable about providing the end user a legitimate way to protect thier investment from harm? It may be off topic, but Apple is succeeding in the Music download business by using an opposite approach to a simular situation. The provide a high quality product (iPod, as if I needed to mention it) and then provide a great library of quality content for a reasonable price with reasonable restrictions. If game consoles were more expensive so that the manufacturers of the consoles could lessen the licensing burden on the developers, maybe the urge to "backup" the titles would be less seductive.

Fight fire with fire...

[MacDork]

As long as people ask these rhetorical questions without providing any answers then they'll be able to twist your perception however they'd like.

Then ask a few of your own, like: How did game manufacturers explain poor sales before the trend to blame pirates, the internet, and anyone but themselves for failure?

• The crash has been attributed to a
• weak economy, poor quality of games (particularly the Atari 2600 versions of Pac-Man and E.T.), and to very aggressive marketing of inexpensive home computers such as the Commodore VIC-20, Atari 800XL, Commodore 64, Tandy Color Computer and Texas Instruments TI-99/4A; the crash was probably caused by a combination of the three factors.

Gee, none of that could apply today, could it?

Pirates

[RealRav]

Bray is probably right. Most of the mod chip owners are using it to play copied games. But is it all bad? When I was a kid on my Commodore 64 I pirated ever game I could get my hands on, because I had no money. Now I'm older with disposable income and still play games. I buy them. Give them a little crack when they're young and they'll keep using it when they get older.

XBOX Media Center - need I say more?

[nicnac__001]

This is the best App I have ever come across, I use it more than anything else on the xbox, the only game I own is Halo. I have no other games loaded on the hard drive. Don't forget all the previous versions - XBMP, and YAMP. Cool, Cool, Cool

well, here in the gray area

[mattACK]

Modding my XBOX allowed me to clean out my cluttered entertainment center. Took out ALL of my older consoles and replaced 'em with the box. Very nice. I still have 4 jammed in there, but I still buy my games.

On an aside, buy Ninja Gaiden A.S.A.P. Best (and hardest) game I have played in a long time despite the shitty camera.

First good news I've heard in ages!

[obeythefist]

This is great news.

For so long, console games have been on the rise because of percieved "higher revenues". Apparently games are harder to pirate on consoles. Maybe not anymore!

Hopefully this means that games companies will go back to the lower initial development and publishing costs of PC games. No proprietary disks, no proprietary development platforms! Give us some real quality again. More half-life, less Deus Ex 2! Maybe there's hope for OpenGL yet?

Like shit you do.

[Inoshiro]

" I just want to play games from Japan. If there were a modchip that allowed me to play legal imports, but not backup games, I'd get it."

So quite whinning and buy a Japanese PS2. North America is both NTSC and 110-120V AC. You can so buy a Japanese PS2 and play Japanese PS2 games, it's how my friend was able to legally obtain a lot more DDR songs. And best of all, you can get all the cool packages we won't see -- like the red Gundam PS2, or the white Gran Turismo 4 prologue PS2.

Whinning and whinning that there's no "legal" modchip when you can just import a Japanese PS2 is being nothing more than a whiney bitch. Yea, European people have this option as well, they just also have to get an NTSC display device and voltage adaptors.

Trunk in question...

[Carpet]

From what I've been reading... the trunk of the Cadillac in question is getting awfully crowded. Would there not be more space if we simply all exited the trunk and stuffed the illegal-use modders in there?

Italian court: "It is legal to modify game console

[Anonymous Coward]

Italian court: "It is legal to modify game consoles"
http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?s id=102403&t hreshold=-1&commentsort=0&tid=127&mode=thread&cid= 8731693

What about Playing Dance Dance Japanese Edition?

[AtomicApple]

Hello, I would just like to comment on this, because it has me greatly angered. If these companies don't want modding, then they should not location lock their systems and video games. My girlfriend bought an already modded PS/1, not for the reason of pirating games, but because she was one of these crazy asians who was already into Dance Dance before the US edition games out. I feel that that is a very legitimit reason to mod a system. She currently also owns an unmoded PS/2. I honestly don't see how we lost sony money, because the games we burnt, you can't even buy here! So you know what, you had better watch your back modchip critics. I have an acquired brain injury. And if you get me this pissed off, I could get off on psychologist testimony. So ya, just do a little bit of research berfore Spewing utter bullshit. Please?

I never would have bought a Dreamcast but

[Mostly Monkey]

Since it was so easy to use downloaded games on it (no mod chip required) I decided to buy one. I had a lot of free games for it but I still bought 15-20 retail games which I never would have done had I not bought it in the first place!

More DMCA abuse is on the way

[GoldenWolf]

I agree with you that PC games are better. Not just cheaper, but overall better in quality.

Of course, is Microsoft or Sony going to give up their extra profits? Of course not! They'll use the DMCA to take Mod chip manufacturers... and users... to court?

Re:More DMCA abuse is on the way

[obeythefist]

Well thankfully in Australia, mod chips are legal. Hopefully Canada will go in the same direction.

But you know what? Until MS/Intel/AMD hits us all with proprietary Palladium borg implants, we won't need mod chips for PC's. Hooray!

Copyright laws differ

[tepples]

UK is part of the European Union (but not the Euro currency zone). It has life plus 70 year copyright.

Australia has life plus 50 year copyright provided it doesn't sign the so-called "free" trade agreement that the USA is pushing. It's common for an underlying work to have entered the public domain in Australia but remain copyrighted in the EU, and it's also common for the estate to refuse to license it for use in the EU.

Hong Kong is part of China. Any HK DVDs would probably have to have some sort of Chinese dub or at least sub.

MOD DOWN PLS, THIS IS FLAMEBAIT

[Anonymous Coward]

all i have to say is fuck you. fuck you up your stupid ass.

if i buy a machine, and then want to fuck it until my dick skin falls off, who are you to say i can't do that just because it's something 'that [was] never wanted to be done in the first place'?

one of these days, when you own *nothing* and you have to pay in hour or halfhour increments just to play halo 10, you'll change your tune.

and i'll be right here saying 'I TOLD YOU SO, YOU FUCKING INGRATE'

cheers. and don't let the door hit your ass on the way out, so that it won't slam the dildo that much further up your rectum. goatse, anyone?