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When to Leave That First Tech Job
An anonymous reader writes "Chris Wilson has an interesting piece about a scenario all CompSci/Engineering students dread, getting a job out of college and having it quickly turn sour. He writes: 'The first layoff is tough. After bending over backward, after being a loyal employee, this is the reward? To summarize how I felt: Disillusioned.' He discusses warning signs you should look for in your own work environment that point toward "Getting out". An interesting read, especially for aspiring engineers or engineers out on their first job."
That didn't take long... Anyone have a mirror?
Meldroc, Waster of Electrons
Has the article already been slashdotted? Wow, that's impressive...
This happened to me this very year, not to mention they tried their hardest to forget to pay me severance, my vaction pay, any way they could cheap out.
...when your web server dies even before a Slashdot 'First Post'
When you're leaving your job, stay late on the last day.
Then, when everyone else has gone, start a fire.
"Why did they cancel my favorite Sci-Fi show? I downloaded ALL the episodes!"
When to leave your (first, second, third or nth) tech job
.NET experience. They searched my university's resume database for candidates, and I came up. Would I like an interview? Hell yes.
.NET Ninjas. We were going to produce top-notch software for the nuclear power industry. Combining management's knowledge of the nuclear field and our kung fu grip on .NET , we hoped to dominate our market niche. As developers we would be on the ground floor of a booming company. There was greater room for advancement compared to a traditional office environment. We all hoped to have company cars, top-notch health care, company cell phones, and tons of other wonderful perks; all just slightly out of reach.
When to leave your first job in the technology field
Editorial by Christopher Wilson
It was early May of 2004, and I was almost at the finish line for my degree. Between me and graduation: Just two summer classes. I was in the process of finishing what could only be described as the most intense spring semester of my college career. As the semester's end finally hit, I realized something. I was going to need a job, and I hadn't even started looking.
Then, almost on cue, the phone rang. The president of a small and local software company was looking for computer engineers with
I was to be part of a team of highly skilled, versatile,
It did not go as planned.
One stressful year later, while I was staying late with a few other developers to finish up on some work, I was asked to report to the president's office. My manager was already there, sitting on the same side of the desk as the president. They explained to me, in a level and professional tone, that due to financial factors, I was going to be let go, with only an hour's severance pay. Thanks for all the hard work, and best of luck.
The first layoff is tough. After bending over backward, after being a loyal employee, this is the reward? To summarize how I felt: Disillusioned. Only one thing kept me going -- pure ego. You know when the schoolyard bully says something about your mom in front of everyone? But, ignoring the size difference and the fact that he's already shaving daily at age 14, you step forward and say "Oh yeah?", with a Brock Sampson-like eye twitch the only warning of the impending ownage? That's the kind of ego that kept me determined to give software engineering a second shot.
Over the course of the previous year, my friends quickly learned I liked to talk about work less and less. When I did open up about it, they were astounded by, well, let's say various factors of the work environment. Each and every time it was discussed with my peers in the field, time and time they gave me the same advice: Get out.
I have to say, they were totally right.
All the signs were there, but I blazed on, telling myself that this was just a rough patch for the company, and that we'd pull out of this tailspin in time to land safely at our destination. I was ignoring the pilots screaming "Mayday, Mayday".
Now, while I was blind to obvious signs that it was time to leave, doesn't mean that you have to be. I would like to present the 4 signs that you should leave your workplace (for software engineers):
1 It's the environment, stupid!
In the University of Pittsburgh's Computer Engineering program, there is a mandatory department seminar, where the department informs us about our career options. Oftentimes, alumni come back to speak about the career opportunities in their field. It's all very, very dry, and as a result, nobody listens. They also fail to give one piece of advice that I would at the first seminar of every year, if I was ever asked to give one:
Don't work in cubicles, ever. Working in cubicles is the sure sign that you're not working for a successful company. Imagine the smartest person you know, working in your field. Now imagine how they would react if they were told they're going to work in a box with no door or roof,
When you're sitting in meetings thinking "I would cheerfully shoot any one of you fuckers in the face to get my last job back", it's probably time to move on.
Well, after about 4 years at my first programming job we started seeing the signs that the whole office was going to go. People had been trickling out before then; the final layoffs were a year later. They kept a few people on in the end. After all, when your company extensively uses a product, you should probably keep someone on to fix the bugs. (Duh!) One poor choice after another. :(
Gods that's freaky... zero comments at any level, and the page is already slashdotted. There's got to be some way to create and automatic mirroring system for /.-referenced pages, so that before an article is posted to /., all pages it links to get auto-mirrored on some server that can handle the load, then the links in the article point to the mirror instead of to the original article. Gotta be possible, and GOTTA be better than what we have here.
I have discovered a truly remarkable
I work for a Doctor who owns his own practice. I recognize that he went through years of medical school to get where he is, and I respect that.
However, med school does not teach you Programming/Networking/System Diagnosis and Repair. It appears to have barely taught management.
When your boss thinks he knows how something should be done because he is a professional in another field, it is time to type up the resume and start passing it around. When you can't convince him of something because he "Knows" how it "Should" be done, your sunk.
Physics is nothing like religion. If it was, we'd have an easier time trying to raise money!
> After bending over backward, after being a loyal employee, this is the reward?
Hint: don't bend over backward.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Know when to listen to your friends.
When the new CEO proudly states - over the intercom - that the best reflection of a companies performance is the stock price.
I bet the mail server had trouble handling the load of outgoing resumes within minutes.
I worked at Google. We had cubicles. Good thing this guy came along to tell me it wasn't a successful company or I never would have known.
I've worked in 4 companies which have bitten the dust in the last 10 years, some good indicators of problems are:
* Paying you in pizza and food stamps
* Managers being overly nice to everyone in meetings while looking very nervous
* 'Minor unexplained troubles' when pay fails to make it to the bank on time
* Large men standing at the doors of the company in pinstripe suits telling everyone to go home for the day
* Leaving the office late in the evening, seeing the company accountant loading what seems to be company property into the back of his SUV
* The CIO borrowing lunch money from you
* Sudden and unexplained 'asset stocktake' undertaken by little men you've never seen in the company before, calling themselves 'administrators'.
* You get an e-mail alert from the stock exchange warning you that your company has announced that it has been placed into liquidation.
Task Mangler
...your boss is suddenly not the least bit interested in assigning you your next task. Been there, had that done to me, at my first dot-bomb.
Attention zealots and haters: 00100 00100
Some of the specific examples are job specific in this case, but I think this is good advice for anyone in a professional environment. Software engineers don't have the monopoly on bad managment.
Well, this is probably going to come off as sounding idiotic, especially here on Slashdot, but it's been reccomended to me by many employees of HP (Parent works there as a Mech Engineer), and a couple in-town software companies that I should head into business. /.'ers care about Security, or do you all want to try switching around a lot? And I realise this is a pretty big generalization, so I welcome any input into the subject, especially those who are already in tech careers that are paying off right now.
Now, I'm by no means a smart cookie, I didn't even make it out of high school with a math higher than our final algebra class (read: not calc/pre-calc), so this may be a better choice for me than the general super geniuses we have running around here; but is the tech firm in a decline? I keep on reading that a company can hire an Indian programmer for less than a US one and still get equal or better results. Same goes with EE's, ME's, and tech support (besides the accents, Dell decided to keep some call centers in the US due to customers not being able to understand them, IIRC).
So, my question is this: With all the layoffs that keep coming at most tech firms, is it a good idea to get involved with a degree that may only last one a decade or so? Or do the majority of you predict this is as bad as it's getting, and the US tech firm biz has been getting better?
It doesn't really matter to me, I suppose- I wouldn't stand a chance at most jobs Slashdotters want to get into; heck, I'm thinking of taking up a career at McDonalds, if my current job proves to be something that I would like to do. (They offer a thing where they can actually pay for my schooling, as long as I decide to stay in the company, et al.) And while many will scoff, I know that there will always be a job there for me. And apparently it's not too hard to move up into corporate after you've had enough experience in the restraunt.
I guess it simply comes down to job security for me. Do the majority of
Another tech site probably got to it first. digg maybe?
"Don't work in cubicles, ever."
I don't know if that's true. I know very smart people making decent money who work in them. The problem with this advice:
1. it disregards smaller companies who can't afford to give its engineers offices. That job you turn down for making you work on folding tables could be the next microsoft (or google or whatever). Find a job you enjoy and that lets you live comfortably in your lifestyle.
2. engineers who aren't that valuable to a company will find it hard to get a job in an office. I know what you are thninking: that's exactly the point of not working in a cubicle. The unfortunate truth is many people, straight out of college, are simply not competent enough to get their dream job.
3. your first job is often not your last. Think of it as experience for when you are looking for a better job (or promotion). Yeah, cubicles suck, but if you work hard you won't be there for long.
Huh. I work at one successful company with plenty o' cubes, my girlfriend at a very successful company where practically no one below VP has an office. So, there's probably something more going on here.
First off, a small company, or a startup, has a hell of lot better things to do with its money than build offices for its employees. If it's not demonstrably benefiting the customer, it's not worth the investment.
Second, yes, cubes do allow more noise in, and yes, it can sometimes be a problem. But the root cause is usually not the absence of a door and ceiling: it's the lack of self-discipline that causes some folks to holler back and forth over cube walls, and it's the lack of an ability to focus that causes some folks to be distracted by any conversation in earshot. As engineers, we shouldn't be paid big bucks just because we can crank out good software under ideal working conditions. We should be able to do quality work under less than ideal conditions, and we should have enough discipline to not create those conditions for others.
Now, if your company doesn't recognize that excessive noise is a distraction and a productivity killer, then that might be a good reason to leave. But at the end of the day, demanding complete quiet and isolation is a prima donna attitude. Learning to filter out minor distractions is achievable, and greatly increases the range of places you'll be able to be productive in. That will only help you in the long run.
He only graduated from college one year ago. What does he know?
Current job seemed like the right step career-wise, especially the management aspect.
But I've just found the office atmosphere to be... depressing. The people are generally good. One the positions under me still hasn't been backfilled. I don't mind picking up the slack but it means I can't do other stuff. Money is extremely tight. And the software I thought was going to be my primary responsibility was more or less outsourced when I started. But the customers still see it as my responsibility to improve and fix. So there's a lot of bitching to deal with.
The bottom line is that I'm incredibly unhappy. I feel worse for being unable to make the job work, especially since I made a big push to get the job in the first place. A rather shitty place to be in. I'm planning to leave at the end of the year... but that seems so far away at the moment.
You're in the tech field.
At all times you should have 20+ people you could call to have a resume on the right desk the next day. Network (the people kind). Then network more.
You are in a place where job turnover is worse then at McDonalds. Outsourcing, cutbacks, takeovers by another company, etc. Your job is about as safe as a house below sea level in New Orleans - you WILL lose it, just a matter of time.
So plan ahead.
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
This kid graduated in the spring of '04 and, only 15 months later, is complaining about the IT industry? Get in line. Or rearrange your priorities. I think the college kids of today - or young people in general - think they are "entitled" to a nice job, nice pay, organized management, etc. Ha! Welcome to the real "Real World."
He's complaining about cubicles??? I recall one time a client (the president and the head of technology) came to visit us and they commented that it's too quiet in the office. They said that they wanted to hear and see people talking, discussing, and creating new ideas, etc. Sorry, kid, but you don't get a shiny office straight out of college, or even ever in life. He's got his expectations way, way, way too high. (I wonder if this carries over in his interpersonal relationships, or not, with the fairer sex.)
And yes, management is dumb in some areas, but really, really, really smart in the one area that counts - longevity. If a project fails, management doesn't get the can. They find the "problem" in I.T. and fire them. They can always shift the blame, pass the buck, and fudge the bottom line. The question to ask is how can you stay on managements' good side? Time to put your pride aside and learn how to suck up.
Personal growth is something you do on your own time not on company's time. They ain't paying ya to discover your inner calling.
Compensation & Overtime has been ruled null & void by the the greater supply of IT people. We are interchangeable. If you don't like and tell that to management they'll find a replacement for you, not pay you more. Every programmer thinks he's the hot shit. Don't let that get to your head. You're not.
I think this kid needs to growing up to do. It's funny because the older guys at the office just smile when I complain. It's the "been there, done that" experience that you learn as you grow older.
Take them for what they are worth.
When to start looking for a new job
1) You notice that the best engineers are systematically leaving the company
- They are leaving for a reason. Maybe it's bad management, maybe it's bad pay. Whatever it is, you don't want it either.
2) You are forced to take a pay cut
- If you take a pay cut, take it when switching jobs. Your salary at a company should always be increasing, and never decreasing.
3) The coffee delivery man stops refilling your coffee machines
- Amenities getting cut in a budget crisis are one of the signs that further budget cuts are on the way.
4) The network gets locked down
- Some companies will lock down the network in an effort to eliminate wasted time. It leads to bitterness among the employees and rarely works out the way the management wants it to.
5) The company get-togethers become more frequent, but less extravagant
- HR is one of the first departments to know when things are going down the tubes. They respond by trying to raise morale with fun company get-togethers, but with a limited budget these get-togethers are less banquet celebrations and more confused standing around a punch bowl in the lunch room.
6) The CEO position has changed hands twice in one year
- It is not uncommon that a CEO will quit after a certain amount of time at the top. It is a bad sign, though, when a CEO can't last a year. Something is wrong with the business and he is getting out while the getting is good. You should follow his lead.
7) The CFO position has changed hands twice in one year
- CFOs are relatively harmless glorified accountants. Except when it comes to budgetary issues. If a CEO can't keep CFOs around, it is because they don't want to work for your CEO. Maybe you shouldn't either.
8) Your company announces a Brand New Direction
- Companies can't just change their direction. Every move should be calculated and based on the strengths of the company. If your company designs software to run banking systems, be wary when the CEO declares that the company will begin work on medical systems.
9) The atmosphere is acrid
- In a company where things are going well, there is usually a very strong atmosphere of comraderie. When things are going bad, or people are overstressed, that atmosphere turns sour. This cascades from the upper levels of management on down, so be aware when your coworkers stop being friendly.
10) The company opens a "research center" or "development center" in an impoverished country
- Companies have found that they can increase headcount by hiring low-cost engineers in impoverished countries like India. They will typically declare the foreign site as a development center to handle development overflow from the main office, and that no current employee will be let go (so relax, because you're safe). This seems to be okay until you notice that headcount in the local office is decreasing because the employees that are leaving aren't being replaced. Brain drain at any company is a serious issue, and one that is directly caused by this type of off shoring.
Jesus saved me from my past. He can save you as well.
try bending over forwards rather than backwards.
its called 'assuming the position'
There's your first tip. After all, there's not much point in strategizing about 'when to leave' when the IT job market is non-existent.
The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky
Guess what? A company does not, repeat, not revolve around an inexperienced, prima donna, overinflated programmer. You are there to contribute to the company, not the other way around. If the circumstances demand that you do an 8-day job in 6 days, then pull out your fucking finger, put in some overtime and fucking get it done. Otherwise get the fuck out of that seat and out the door to make way for someone who can do the job.
Hahahaha... Really? Ya think? As part of that reality check, why don't you have a long, hard think about exactly how good you actually are?If you're so smart, why did you leave it until May of the year you were supposed to graduate to start looking for a job? If you're such a fucking .NET ninja, then why aren't you working at a decent company, rather than some crappy local software company?
Upstairs here at my firm, we have some of the smartest Comp Sci grads in the world. Why aren't you among them?
Yeah, here, take your reality check, go cash it and here's the extra 90 cents you'll need to afford a Big Mac.
Oh, and while you're there, pick up a application form for a burger-flipping job.
D.
Thanks, tktk! :)
...)
/quits ggvaidya
(p.s. mods - parent is FUNNY, not offtopic
If there's a sudden drop in the amount of communication from management then something is wrong.
If management is saying things that everyone in the room knows to be lies then you've got a major problem.
If new people are coming in and making things worse, you've got an incurable problem. "A players hire A players, B players hire C players". You cannot fix that kind of death spiral by working hard or even by working brilliantly.
How do you tell if you're job-jumping too quickly, overreacting to normal frustrations? Here's a hint. If you wake up two hours before your alarm goes off, throw up, and can't get back to sleep, then the time for toughing it out has been over for a long time.
"He discusses warning signs you should look for in your own work environment that point toward 'Getting out'"
'An interesting read, especially for aspiring artists or artists out on their first job.'
My first warninng sign was the game that I spent three years on was found on a warez site. The second warning was when netazines started bashing me for pointing out what they was doing was wrong. The last warning was one of my artist idols giving up the biz in frustration at his treatment by "customers".
Currently I'm a janitor, which pays lousy. But I don't have to keep looking over my shoulder for "warning signs".
.Net is neither hard-real-time nor fault-tolerant.
Non-real-time OSs, like Linux (vanilla) and Windows 2003 have no place in critical systems.
Rather than reading posted text without the nice formatting, read it on mirrordot:
Here ya go
The only time to leave that first job is when you have the second job lined up. There seems to be a large lack of reality inherent in the attached article
Don't work in cubicles, ever. Working in cubicles is the sure sign that you're not working for a successful company. Imagine the smartest person you know, working in your field. Now imagine how they would react if they were told they're going to work in a box with no door or roof, allowing them no privacy.
Many graduates will never get a job with this advice. Most of the companies I have seen with graduate programs are large companies which means cubicles. Of course it also means a very good name on your resume, graduate rotations so you can experience different workstreams and some form of mentor program if you care to take advantage of it.
It also means many of the evils that come with corporations such as bad bosses, bad methods and general cluelessness. These can be opportunities to learn, or the bane of your existance. They can be both if you choose to learn everything you can from them and then do not move on. Learn how to achieve things in the corporate world, how to persuade management without offending them. That way when you go work at a smaller firm you will be able to communicate with your customers on their terms and understand where their requirements are coming from. If you have never experienced ISO9000 or the like from the inside you can never really appreciate some customer requirements.
This guy is setting himself and a number of people who buy into his philosophy for a rude shock. If you do not have the perfect boss, move on. If your boss allocates a function to a co-worker that you think you are better prepared for, move on. If your boss does not accept your estimates on times, move on. Basically if you are not Lord of all the eye can see, move on.
Reality is, some bosses are pains in the butt. So are customers. Learn to work with and aroudn them, then when you have learned all you can and learned how to recognise this type, feel free to move on. If you are a programmer advising the boss on how to manage a server, and he has server gusy for that, then there is a balance you need to strike. The boss is paying the other guy to perform these tasks. If he isn't up to scratch the boss should move him out and get someone else in. He shouldn't be delegating to you the tasks from other departments that you want. I have seen this issue so often with new people in companies who want to focus on what interests them and not on the job they were employed to do. The other guy probably can't program, so the boss would be paying two resources for the same role, and his project would be behind.
If you want to be proactive, I support it, ubt start in house. Suggest improvements to your own processes, document the undocumented, set standards. Then you get your bosses attention and suggestions for other areas will get more attention. But if you are a grad and you come in creating issues for other workers, you are the one who will suffer.
And you are a graduate, and you are giving estimates on how long it will take you to complete a task. Do you always have only one task or are you expected to run multiple jobs at once? You need to learn to negotiate. You can have this module in 8 days, but one of these others will slip. Email is your negotiating friend, as long as you use it as a record of agreements as opposed to a blackmail tool.
Finally, you need to stay in your first job for about 2 years. This gives you a job history as well as a reputation ofr being able to commit. 3 weeks in a job before kicking it will look negative on any resume, and you won't get a reference worth squat. The first 5 years in IT were hard work taking the job that best equipped me to get another job. Now I get to choose what I want to do and where I work, and I can demand an office. But I earned that, I didn't just complain or walk out when it wasn't handed to me
I don't wish to sound harsh, but why is a fresh graduate giving people career advice? It's not as if he has a surfeit of experience to draw on.
And it shows. Take advice number one: "don't work in a cubicle". You'll be looking a long time for a job that comes with its own office. Most corporations, especially, make sure that offices only go to managers above a certain rank. That's just how it is.
On the matter at hand, though, my advice to anyone wondering if they should quit is this: quit if going to work makes you feel sick to your stomach every day, and even then, only if you have a choice. If you have a mortgage or dependents, find another job *first*.
Oh, yeah, and one last piece of advice: it's called "work", not "happy fun playtime". Most jobs suck. Come to terms with that, and you'll be a man, my son.
I got laid off after six months of working as a Java developer--straight out of college. I had even interned with the company the summer before I graduated and everything was great until the day-to-day reality set it.
My boss was a micromanager and a bully as well. I would try to defend my decisions unlike other employees and I got into bad favor with management. The whole office was so badly run and management had no clue what employees were up to. I got blamed for something that I was partly responsible but didn't deserve to get fired for. But I did.
I was extremely disillusioned. The lack of jobs made it worse, but I bounced back with a brand new career in freelance writing. Sure I don't make as much money, but it's getting better and I love the work and the hours (9 am start).
At this point, I'm kind of glad it happened. Although, I don't know how I'll explain the huge gap in employment if the whole freelancing doesn't work out. At this point things are looking good. Getting fired isn't the worst thing. Not doing what you love is.
"A diplomat is a man who always remembers a woman's birthday but never remembers her age." -Robert Frost
Me (Yell over cubcles): Yo, Dilbert, why does the injecto-magno-oscillator connect to the plasma-regulator via the quantum-field-inducer?
Dilbert: Because the proton streams must not cross. If they do, every atom in your body will explode outward at the speed of light.
Me: Oh, glad I asked.
Moral of the story: cubicles facilitate teamwork. And they educate fellow engineers about important matters.
This is something I noticed about graduates in particular - they often try too hard to please. (I did the same thing at my first job, and a few years later could recognise it the new hires.) It's your first job, so you are eager to impress, think that your performance and not 'office politics' is what will primarily determine your advancement etc., so you bend over backwards - lots of extra hours, neglect your personal life, etc. This phenomenon makes graduates particularly ripe for abuse - employers know that graduates are eager to impress, and will use you. If all goes well though then you'll soon realise your employer has no loyalty towards you, that he is the one who will be getting rich from all your hard work and extra hours, and that you should start focusing more on yourself. Unfortunately for me this realisation occurred in a rather negative way (basically I accidentally overheard my employer one day saying some, well, less than pleasant and rather dismissive things about me behind my back to another manager), but whatever the scenario, after the 'acceptance' phase you'll hopefully start putting your priorities right (which, roughly speaking, should be: (a) yourself first, (b) your loved ones second, and (c) your company third).
Of course, it doesn't always happen. I've seen people who have spent their whole lives programming, and still in their forties retain that child-like submissiveness and loyalty. At the other extreme, I've seen other who seem to instinctively understand the system even before they graduate, and right off the bat are looking after their own futures primarily (these people are usually the most successful in life, except for the arrogant ones with oversized egos). I sometimes think these various behavious are probably "hardwired" into us - the old 'alpha male' story, that may of us tend to instinctively be submissive/loyal to the 'leader' in the group, or alternatively some want to 'challenge' that leader and/or be the leader (in modern terms, start your own company).
Three things that scream GET OUT to me are:
;-)
1. Not getting the promotion you felt you deserved.
2. Being stuck using older technologies.
3. Having so little work to do that you become a slashdot "obsessive-compulsive reloader"
I have a burning desire to verbally bludgeon the author of this article, but instead I'll give a brief outline of my thoughts.
.NET is highly untested and nuclear power plants are the zenith of mission critical. If any nuclear power plants adopt .NET to run their plant, I'm moving to the moon.
A) This was your fisrt job. If you truly feel you can judge everything about the working world from your first job, you're shallow, incompetent and pathetic.
B) If you think succesful companies don't have cubicles, you're in for a very rude awakening when you get jobs #2 and #3, etc.
C) You were working for a startup. You should have demanded a very lucrative stock package. Most startups (and I really need to stress most--ask the SBA) fail! That's a risk you take and the stock package is the payoff if the comapny succeeds.
D)
Hey Chris, if you're expetations are this high for your first job, I pity you. You've got a long way to go and a great many things to learn.
--James
As far as I'm concerned, since he put NO effort into looking for a job, researching companies and talking to people about the company, he has little right to complain about the way things turned out.
There are plenty of students in their senior years who put some effort into their job hunts. Depending on your school, you may have a quality Career Services department that can be a lot of help. Or they may be idiots who don't know a thing about it.
If he got a job by doing nothing and waiting for a phone call, he should thank his guardian angel that he had the opportunity to work for a year.
...and mod slashdot down.
Don't post your Slashdot ID on your CV...
Chris: just because your worked in lousy place doesn't mean you have to question the whole industry.
.NET is one tiny world of IT/Software, check out what else is out. This will help you to be a better .NET programmer by the way!
Plus, some lessons have to be learned on your side too!
- Bad managers: there way too many out there. Yes, that is correct. But from the great ones you can learn a lot, get them next!
- You overall attidude: I wouldn't hire you, no way. It doesn't seem to be me you worked previsouly in your field (before, during your studies), you have a lot of expectations and not that much too give.
- Loyalty: your company can kick you out any time, and you can leave them as well with one or two weeks notice (equally long sticks). Only because you work hard, doesn't mean the company OWES you anything - they pay you a salary after all, did you forget that?
- Personal growth: you are responsible for that, and you do a better job at that than your employer!
- Cubicles. Works for some, doesn't seem to work for you. I can't stand the folks who close themselves in into offices, and make you feel bad when you step into their little castle. If you can only work well if it is quiet, TALK with your managers and peers.
- Use this crisis as a chance. Make a list where you can improve your personal skills. Working for a company that does well is really easy! Please, be a bit more critical of yourself. You blamed a lot of other people and circumstances....
- Personal development: there is habit I copied from a former coworker that helps to stay up to date with technology (unlike the managers you quoted): buy a new book every month (anything in engineer & software). Subscribe to IEEE magazines. And most importantly:
Greetings,
Fabian
He should go read about Charles Goodyear. I think he will feel better afterward.
Seriously, we are in global economy and facing many competition. There are many engineers in China, India, Russia who can work with very low salary (compare to US).
.NET Ninjas
I don't think that I've bumped into any of those, are they like Tae Kwon Do-Dos?
Interesting read but sorry alarm bells started ringing for me when I scanned this:
".NET Ninjas" "top-notch software" "nuclear power industry". I would have avoided the job like the plague at that. If you'd studied harder at college you would know why, and no, that wasn't actually an anti M$ comment, but it was your first reaction? Hmm, them bells are ringing louder..
I don't think software is the career for you. Maybe you should go back to college and study law or accountancy.
If you take the advice, you'll thank me for it one day.
threadeds blog
There's no explanation for how those factors indicate you will be layed off/fired soon. They are all comfort and perceived self worth issues, they don't relate to job longetivity.
A good time is when the guys with guns and the SEC show up and close it down.
OMG, a 24-year old almost straight out of college who knows EVERYTHING! I've never encountered one of those before!
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PGP Key ID 0xCB8FF658
I work for a university so I see it all the time, the undergrad that thinks that their degree (and no real experience) should net them a great, high paying job in a low stress environment where they get what they want. Well, those that chase the numbers, usually end up getting screwed. No suprise, if you are fresh out of university with no experience, you aren't worth a whole lot at that point. Takes more time before you have the skills and experience to back up a big salary.
Guy strikes me as one of those. Ok, so maybe he really did get in a bad situation but his gripes scream of lack of experience. Cubicles are not always bad, maybe even not often. Personally, I wouldn't want an office at my current job. If we were all in offices, it would just make shit much harder and necessitate twice weekly staff meetings. As is, with us all in one room, we just talk as needed. If you are busy, you put your headphones on and people leave you alone. If not, you listen. Maybe people are talking about something that relates to you.
Not saying that's the case at all companies but to pretend cubicles are universally bad is stupid.
Same thing with the management gripe. On the surface it's some valid stuff, but tech people often get too caught up in thinking management is stupid. Well guess what? Just because they don't agree with you, doesn't make them dumb. There are realities in business that most tech people don't deal with. If your boss is good, you won't have to. However that doesn't mean they aren't there and that they don't have to be dealt with. Just because they have a different view than you, or won't do what you want doesn't make them stupid.
I mean I'd really like to spend about a million dollars upgrading labs in our department. That would be enough for all the top of the line hardware, software, desks, presentation equipment, etc that I'd like to have. However my boss would not be stupid for telling me no if I asked. Would it improve the education of our students? No question, and that is our prime goal here, it would be our product if we were a business. However it's not at all cost effective, nor within the amount of money available to us. Each year our group requests several hundred thousands of dollars for upgrades, and we never get near that much. However, we don't cry about management not supporting us. They want to know what we'd like, and we tell them. They weigh that, and decide based off of our resources what we can afford to get.
It's valuable to know when to leave a company but "when you work in a cube" and "when you and your boss disagree" aren't valid times. Also, when you are new to the market, espically wiht no work experience, consider lower pay. I'm ot saying lowball yourself, but look at what's offered. Often people who hire newbies for insane saliries are doing so because their expecations are unrealistic, much like yours. Realise that you aren't worth a ton and find someone who understands that. If you find a good place, you'll be given realistic tasks to your skills, chances to learn and grow, and people who know what's going on to guide you.
When I was fired from my first tech job, these were the signs...
1) 6 months before leaving: Snack room no longer contains free snacks. Just a water cooler.
2) 3 months before leaving: Water cooler no longer contains water, janitor stops coming frequently, VP takes a "sabbatical."
3) 1 month before leaving: Secretary is now cleaning the toilet and answering the phone; more employees go on "sabbatical," storage boxes begin to appear in my office.
4) 2 weeks before leaving: Secretary is now on "sabbatical;" bathroom is getting funky; I am now replacing the urinal cakes out of good will; my office is now doubling as a storage facility, "why is the DEA at our office?"
5) 1 week before leaving: "where is the CEO?"
6) Day I leave: I have been asked to go on "unpaid sabbatical"
7) 2 years after starting my unpaid sabbatical: I have yet to be called back to work.
true story... urinal mints and all
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
I'd be curious to see some figures as to how many workers stay with IT into even their early forties. It might be a better strategy to treat tech employment as a ten-year deal. Live as simply as you can and bank the good income assiduously (easy to follow this path with all the overtime soaking up your youth anyhow). When you reach burnout or when age reduces your marketability, exit with a fat investment portfolio and start your life.
Grouping a team of 3-6 cow-orkers who have shared job responsibilities together in a open plan group of cubicles can enhance productivity.
Building a huge cattle pen to house 10-30 employees with mostly unrelated duties, especially if any of them have jobs that require a lot of time on the phone, is counter-productive.
All it takes is one loud-voiced joker with an exaggerated sense of his own funniness to crash the productivity of everybody else.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
This was more of a personal rant than good advice. Anywhere you go you're going to have to deal with office politics. Someone has to be in charge and if you keep switching jobs, its not going to be you.
I say this because if I had followed this guy's advice, I would've quit my job during the first 6 months when I was 'pulling cable and fixing network connections.' But instead I toughed it out, learned what I could about how things worked, and found a spot for myself where I'm useful and best of all I'm doing fun stuff. Now instead of just programming I get to make 3d models and I get to code. And yes it's loud because I work in a cube and there's the occasional dolt to deal with, but it completely doesn't matter. That's what headphones are for.
My advice would be to give it more that a year or two before you make any judgements. And bear in mind that it doesn't look good to employers if you're job hopping.
Man that was the funniest onion article i've read in awhile!
first it job, straight out of uni, quit after 9 months. but instead of getting a similar job elsewhere (indeed anywhere in the world!) i moved back up north and spent the next few years drinking with my mates and ending up in a shitty dead end town with no money and no hope of escape. i did escape eventually but i wish my dissolusionment hadnt taken me away from it jobs completely! my advice: try try again
If you don't risk failure you don't risk success.
Here is couple of reasons to quit (from experience)
1. Boss that is dishonest, manipulative and disloyal to his peole. You can put up with slave-driving, rude, tactless and unreasonable boss (up to a point) but you cannot work for a guy who is flaky, undercuts you, cheats, is arrogant and never listens. A borish but capable boss is preferable to a nice weak guy who does not take a good care of his people and projects. But the loyality, respect and honesty are the most important, they have to go both ways.
2. Incessant crunchtimes. It is good helping to save the company for a while and a campain that lasts for few weeks can be justified. But if they start anothe crash-effort immediately after the previous one ends and if they drive you for months without break, it means the managers are using you and do not give damn about you. This often happens when the top guys are either fools or dishonest and make promises on which it is impossible to make good. They are declaring crunchtime effort and setingt everybody elese to fail or burn out.
3. Tired/dispirited/cynical colleagues. If you see guys that are capable, bright but dilbertized, it usualy has a reason. You don't want to become like them.
4. Little things: Are people relaxed or are they freeking out? Is the company generaly scroodgy in little details - or is it generous? (I worked for a good company and then immediately for a very nasty one. The nasty company was paying me 5k extra and had a better research. The salary increase was not worth it. The little day-to day viciousnes from the management types made me eager to quit).
5. Does your work make the world a better place? If everything you have done gets useless (or worse) and you will have nothing exciting to say about the outcome of your effort, maybe you should quit while you can.
I doubt that we will ever figure out - and I suspect that even if we did figure out we couldn't do much about it
Sad situation he was in, but he needs more experience before giving any kind of advice.
Also, this was a good life lesson for him.
"Well then, my goal becomes clear, the broccoli must die." -Stewie
When your company burns to the ground is a good time to get a new job.
. . . and excuse me, I believe you have my stapler...
Lost my only possible escape :-( !
Btw, does broke down coffee machine have anything to do with those warning signs ? :-)
My favourite place : 127.0.0.1
I can sympathise with the problems of cubicles. However, for real inefficiency, try open plan! My current client, a well known retail bank, has everyone (except senior management who are on £150k+/year) in open-plan work areas as far as the eye can see...yes, open plan, no cubicles, no dividers just open plan...when I suggested that we might want to set up some 'quiet zones' where people could go to concentrate on actually doing some work I was told to buy an iPod!
You should make a balance.
Did this several times, categorizing a list with positive and negative aspects of my job compared to a new job offer.
- The people you work with: Are you happy with you're current collegeas? Having good collegeas is one of the most important things.
- Salary: are you capable of living from it without troubles.
- Technical level: Is the job interesting enough to stay?
- Are there still job opportunities to reach a higher level in the current company?
- Are there rumours or facts about a unhealthy economic situation of you're company?
- Office hours?
- Are you respected as a collegea?
- Is you're knowledge repected?
and finally
What you expect to loose in you're new job?
As long as the balance turn out positive for the current job, you should stay.
Some doctor had put a post on here about looking for Mac programmers, and I pointed out that doctors and lawyers were the worst people to work for.
That's because they both went to school for a long time, and are generally in the upper 50% of the population in terms of intelligence. That gives them the feeling that they are somehow smarter than everybody else.
The reality is that when it comes to doing anything outside their own field, in general, they're about as smart as aunt maybel. If they were great software developers, they wouldn't be a doctor. And hardly any doctor is a great manager. In fact, it's a good bet that a doctor will not be a good manager.
I tell people all the time: the difference between a plumber and a doctor is that a plumber has to take the blame for shoddy work.
As for lawyers, they always think they're clever enough to cheat you.
this kid is nuts! But first let me share my tale...
I started my first job at an ISP in 1998 while I was still in high school. It was a medium-sized ISP in a decent sized city. Everything was well and good and I enjoyed it. But it did have it's moments of annoyance. It did have cubicles and it was fairly successful and was bought out in 1999. After the buyout, things went downhill rapidly. Promises were made about what we (the newly acquired company) would be doing. Those all fell through, after they purchased another ISP in another city to do what they promised us. That's a pretty good sign to leave.
I graduated high school in 1999 and decided not to go in to college immediately since I was gaining good experience and I could endure the times that I wasn't perfectly happy with my job. In 2000, shortly after a third company was bought and was promised what we and the second company were promised. I decided that would be a good time to leave.
From that company, I joined a large corporation that I'm still employed with today... it'll be 5 years next week. And I must say, they had many offices with many many cubicles. Success is not measured by every employee having an office. The bottom-line is that you make your own success by playing politics with the management (this is necessary part of your career, the sooner you learn to play ball, the sooner you'll see advancement), in addition to actually being good at your job.
Being a ninja may be great but if Sensai doesn't like you, you're fucked.
Management does make bad decisions but it's up to you to speak your piece in a way that does not offend them because in the end, you're working for them, not the other way around.
The irony here is that I'm just starting college. I'm 24 and I have over 7 years of experience in the industry. Obviously college doesn't teach you everything and after reading that "article", I'm sure glad I chose the path I did. I chose to get smart in the real world and then go learn about the theory that makes a perfect world, instead of vica versa.
I just wasted your mod points! HA!
if you think management is just overhead, you're living in a dream world. four months ago, i'd have been tempted to see your point of view. now that i'm doing it myself, i finally understand something - and believe me, i have held deep the disgust for management from personal experience.
...
this is what management has to do: take into account all the idealism, all the analysis, all the motivation (or lack thereof), all the concepts and products and resources and people... and try to make it all work out in the real world, where people don't work well together, certain crucial resources become prohibitively expensive or are simply unavailable in time, vendors that don't seem to care about doing good business, products that might or might not work out but it takes years of many people's lives to find out, good analysis or faulty analysis or no analysis (doesn't much matter which you pick since it's all in the execution),
oh, and stay a real human being while dealing with the most absolutely boring shit you can possibly imagine... and then some more of it.
so fine, all that is necessary overhead - but if that's all it is, you end up with shitty management and the company goes nowhere. because shitty management can bring anybody down. good management you might not notice unless you've worked for the bad stuff before. which i try and hope not to be, but it's a lot tougher than it looks. like balancing a haystack on a needle.
"You are there to contribute to the company, not the other way around."
Wrong. You lose. It's a two-way street if you want long term results. Bust ass with attitude like that and you're just generating ill will, and nothing will undercut everything you do like a little current of resentment... yours or everyone else's.
Every last one of us is a real person with a real life. If you forget that, you're sunk. If the contribution only goes one way, you'll never see that positive feedback cycle you need to do well.
Wouldn't leaving your job be bad for your carreer perspectives? I know I wouldn't like to employ someone known for leaving their employers just because the environment isn't to their tastes. Once you have built a reputation for delivering quality work, you can afford to be a bit snobby, but doing it on your first jobs is more like saying "I'm not up to the task".
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
Here's another guy looking to pile on to this poor self-involved guy disconnected from reality.
:-). (2) is often necessary and sufficient, unless the executive management of the company is a bunch of 'equi-potential' individuals with a belief in the value of professionalism.
:-).
Going to work is all about two things:
1.) Creating things that make money for the company.
2.) Socially enmeshing yourself in the company so that you get your hands on a sizeable portion of the revenue -- preferably more than the share you deserve.
From his post, it seems to me the guy hasn't thought about 1, and has no clue about 2.
Now I believe (1) to be the reason I started programming as a teenager. The joy of seeing a program work is a big kick, but there is no kick like creating something that is useful to other people, and that puts the bread on your table too. It sounds easy, but a lot of crap gets created in the world, and it only takes great engineering to make something that is of value to humanity.
In the real world, my experience has told me that (1) is often optional
A lot of good companies go bad because they are victims of their own success. They start out with a bunch of techno-geeks at the helm of affairs, and the "do work, get rewarded" policy applies. As they become successful, people gravitate to these places for a share of the pot of honey. Then you have cliques and factions, and things start to go downhill from there.
The surest sign that you have to get out of the company is not that you don't have an office, or that your manager doesn't kiss you full on the mouth every morning (with tongue).
It really depends on your priorities -- If you're the creative type who takes pride in your work, leave only when you're not learning anything new, and when you're only twiddling your thumbs at the office everyday. If you want money, leave when you don't have any route to the honey-pot.
Usually, the nature of life dictates that the one also implies the other
I remember this feeling - long, long ago. My conclusion is that you should leave as soon as you find a better job - always.
The thing about loyalty (as well as trust, respect, etc etc) is that it should be earned. We all know the expression 'command respect' - what a load of nonsense. You can't order people to respect you, you have to earn it by giving respect - being worthy of respect or 'respectable' if you like. The same goes for loyalty: it has to be earned. Is the company loyal to you? No? Then you don't owe them any loyalty beyond what the contract says you are paid for.
Some have voiced the opinion that (most) companies display the characteristics of a psychopath: they will shamelessly and without remorse manipulate and exploit their customers and employees, and they will dump you when you no longer seem to be of use.
This guy is right about cubicles. Cubicles are a red flag when you're interviewing.
But don't overlook restrooms. Make sure to use the restroom when you interview. The condition of the restroom speaks volumes about the company. Was it clean? Did the commodes and urinals flush? Was there toilet paper? paper towels? soap? hot water?
You may be surprised.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
"How do you tell if you're job-jumping too quickly, overreacting to normal frustrations? Here's a hint. If you wake up two hours before your alarm goes off, throw up, and can't get back to sleep, then the time for toughing it out has been over for a long time."
e =Yes.mov
Here is an example, I think, of when it is time to leave and find a new job:
http://www.yourfilehost.com/media.php?cat=mov&fil
Enjoy 8-D
I dream of a cubicle. In this country (the UK), the norm is completely open plan. That is, you have a big room where everybody works with no internal walls or partitions. The open plan room I'm in at the moment is relatively OK, there's only five people in it and it is quite small. Yesterday I was at the Gherkin and the floor I was on was completely open except for a central core where the toilets, lifts and other services were, the cafeteria and the meeting rooms.
All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
just mod parent up
mod him up or die, can you do any less
...that the above article is stupid. Instead:
1) Make sure you like your coworkers. "Management" will come in and out of your life as your career evolves. Your friends are the people who will tell you about new oppurtunities. If you are good, your friends will take care of you... even if they are "management".
2) There is no such thing as "management". Everybody has to be a manager at some level. The ideal goal is for everybody to contribute the best they can to a company. That means drop the classist attitude and start your coworkers who are tryig to contribute the best way possible.
3) Leave when you don't feel useful anymore or when you think you will be more useful elsewhere. The biggest morale killer for me in my early career is when I felt I could contribute more and couldn't. I would then find a new environment where I could contribute.
4) Don't worry about salary. Worry where you make the biggest impact to the company, society, and the world (in that order) and the money will follow if you can execute. If you can't execute...well taht's a different topic.
5) If you are jaded after your first job, you are in the wrong field. As somebody in the high tech industry, you *have* to be arrogant... but you are arrogant in the wrong way. Focus your arrogance on what you can create and away from what you can get.
6) Don't be a prima donna if you are in the "middle of the pack". Six figures isn't hard if you are a bad ass. Most people aren't bad asses. All of the most brilliant programmers I know could make six figures with a few phone calls (surprisingly many of them choose *not* to have six figures... but again... another topic).
"I personally believe the time to leave that first tech job is when you can find another job that pays significantly more (and at a point that doesn't leave the current team in a bind). This applies to any job in any industry, not just the tech industry."
In my field (surgery), I believe the top priority is having a good group of partners who are honest, who won't stab you in the back, and have a high level of expertise and a good work ethic. Salary, within reasonable limits, is not as important. Admittedly, surgeons generally don't have to worry much about poverty, which may explain why I see this a little differently.
God damn, I wish I could tax-deduct my iPod.
A .NET ninja out of college, I see you and the others like you daily, took a few programming classes and now you are a ninja, nope, nijna's take years to create. We had a guy that used to quote business rules that he had gleemed from his mom who was a receptionist in a medical office!
......................
Come back in 20 years when you have been dumped on, shit on, fired, layed off, the building locked upon your arrival
Similarly, a CEO who presides over a long decline in stock valuation charges a high price for his services but the shareholders will probably not consider him worth much.
On a more prosaic level, while hiring Java programmers, I have found that there was little difference in ability between high-paid contractors and relatively low-paid staff. The only striking difference was in their self-perception. (And, no, I am not a PHB. I've been programming Java for 8 years and have had to sit through many interviews where high priced candidates didn't know how to implement an equals method...).
The price somebody charges (not their worth) is based partly on their self-perception but also on how able they are in convincing their employer of their high worth. This may or may not be closely linked to reality.
--- "We've always been at war with Eastasia."
Judging a job _only_ by the money ("I personally believe the time to leave that first tech job is when you can find another job that pays significantly more") is IMHO a case of literally not seeing the forest for the trees.
Money is a means, not an end. You can't eat money, you can't get much entertainment out of just looking at a bunch of 100$ bills, etc. The question is what you can do with them to improve your life quality, not the number alone, like some screwed-up game score.
And before you lash back with "well, duh, with more money you can buy more stuff and be happier", no, that's still not getting it.
Yeah, you can buy a bigger plasma TV or some high-end stereo or whatever, but if you end up in a job where an asshole demands your presence there 14 hours a day, and occasionally that you bring a sleeping bag and don't leave until he sees some program ready (yes, I've actually seen such an asshole)... you won't actually have the _time_ to actually _use_ those. You'll just have time to eat and flop into bed.
Additionally, let's talk about happiness on the whole. Even if money could buy some happiness, it's not a linear scale. Twice the money doesn't make you twice as happy. So you gain, what? Maybe 5% extra happiness in those 4-5 hours at home. If the price to pay is anywhere between 8 and 14 hours of pure hell at work, I'd say on the average you're actually worse off.
Guarding against the future? Hah. I'll tell you what's more likely to happen, because I personally know people who chose to work for an asshole for a lot more pay. You know how much they've saved for the future? Well, one was telling me at the end of last week that he's some $2000 in debt... right after salary day. (And that's not counting the debts for his car, the house, etc.)
Welcome to the deathtrap of consumerism. See, most people who try too hard to believe that success is measured in money alone, and that more money can literally buy happiness... end up literally trying to buy it. Or failing that, trying to convince themselves that theirs is the right way. ("Hey, look how much stuff I can buy with that money! Of course it's worth it! Why, that's what success is all about!")
The guy I was mentioning above, we're good friends, so I hear about it each time he gets a raise or a promotion. Also when he buys new stuff. Guess what? Each raise was followed by an even bigger increase in how much he spends. Each time he'll just get a bigger car, a bigger computer, then military-grade IR goggles for when he goes fishing, then now a bigger house in a whole other (more fashionable) town. (Just in case those 12 hours a day at the office weren't enough, now he'll also spend an extra 2 hours commuting.)
Those in turn just dig the trap deeper. Now with all those monthly payments and being in debt he _has_ to keep at it.
So what did he _really_ get out of it? Well, from where I stand, it looks like he's got $2000 debt, plus the loans for the car and house, and some 12 hours a day of high stress. Now with the extra commuting, he only gets to see his infant son briefly before going to sleep, and on weekends. Yeah, way to go.
My advice? Forget it. I've saved a lot more on a lesser wage. Not falling into the "money is everything, and consumerism is the way to show it off" trap tends to have that effect.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
So teams developing nuclear power station software are being sourced from Uni? What about experience? This sounds like an accident waiting to happen...
Karem
When all is said and done, nothing changes...
Didn't anybody tell the author what happens to .NET professionals not working in M$ ???
This article is a Reed Richards for newsworthy. Software Engineer career advice by someone who's only out of college a year?
If you won't work anywhere that doesn't give an office, it'll be a rough ride with plenty of missed opportunity. I've never worked for a company that gives everyone their own office. The closest I've come to having my own office was a shared office with 3 of us, but that company only had 4 employees and 2 rooms, one office was the boss's, the other was ours. Everywhere else I've worked, it's always cubicles. In most companies I've worked at, no one below the 2nd tier of managers got their own office. Getting an office is a comfort and convenience issue, we make do with what we have. My girlfriend works for one of the most prominent local software companies, there's 2 offices, one for the boss, one for the manager. The other 20 employees have cubicles.
The article is okay, but everyone and their dog has advice on bad job warning signs. 20 years from now, your insight is going to be a lot more focused, and these reasons to think the company is doomed won't be as astute an observation as you think. The same things you list as warning signs to get out are also the same things I've seen in numerous successful companies, and they weren't signs of impending doom, they were signs of business-as-usual.
Did we get invaded? I hadn't noticed. ... I sure hope you are not posting form Iraq!
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
"..Combining managementâ(TM)s knowledge of the nuclear field and our kung fu grip on .NET"
.NET ninjas with a kung-fu grip. Lipschitz got an email on Tuesday with the subject 'ch3Ck ur r3/\ct0r' and naturally opened it because he thought it was important. Well, the whole place lit up like a christmas tree. We went into meltdown and we had no choice but to flee in panic. I used the rest of the corporate funds to buy a Russian space ride and I'm nice and cozy in the ISS eating squeeze-out-of-the-tube food. The glare of fallout now spreading across Spain is somewhat annoyingly bright and I forgot to bring sunglasses"
I can hear the podcast now: "Yep - 27 reactors humming along, all running from a visual basic appication coded by some crackshot
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
The fact that he does seem to understand already is that a bad job isn't worth hanging onto. Seems very mature to me for a start.
I see people every day who just can't get it that for _you_ the first and only priority is... _you_, and of course your family if you have one. The job or wage are just a means to an end, but no more. The question is what good does it do for _you_, not what you can do to fit in a bad job at all cost. If a job or a whole industry is actually making you unhappier, then it's time to look for a better job and maybe switch to another industry altogether.
Success isn't measured in how well you fit a stereotype and how much shit you're capable of taking for it. The only real success is the kind that improves your quality of life. And if taking job A instead of job B actually lowers it, maybe taking job A isn't really a "success".
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
After the 5th layoff, I said "screw it". Not going to work around the clock 24/7/365 saving the bosses ass anymore when the payment is a pat on the shoulder and being escorted out of the building because some dickhead decided to send your job overseas. I'm now back in school and completely fed up of the rotten business IT has become.
Please continue to wallow in your cartoon network references D00d and whine that you don't have the corner office after, oh, 1 year of work experience, because that's like, you know, reality and shit.
hahahahahahahaha
Yeah, this really is a nice wish list for the company you want to work for. It's interesting how little crap this guy takes before wanting to leave a job. We do have to take it with a grain of salt though, how much "real world experience" can a person who graduated in '04 have?
Guess what man, it's software engineering, it's not exactly an employee's market. We all have to put up with crap. Show me a manager who doesn't try to slim down the schedule from 8 days to 6, or who always takes their employee's advice, and I'll show you a one-of-a-kind advocate for the people. Sometimes just to have a job, you have to put up with a little crap. I'd certainly rather have a job in a...oh my God...CUBICLE...than not have a job at all.
Here's some advice from another software engineer who has been laid off before. When you see the writing on the wall that the company's going under, RUN, don't walk to the nearest want ads. Otherwise, stick around until you absolutely can't stand the job any more. Then, go find another job where you can put up with the crap for another 5 years or so.
Not to be pessamistic (sp?), but there's ALWAYS some crap to put up with at any job, at any level.
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own!"
Even if you are reasonably happy with your job you should be looking for other positions and interviewing at least every three years (I look every two). It is good practice, and it lets you know what you can make so that you can compare it to your current compensation. Many people have no idea what they are worth on the open market. This has two effects. One, you may be unsatisfied with your current compensation, when in fact you are already making a competitive wage. Knowing your worth on the open market can ease the stress of feeling underpaid in your current position. Maybe it is time for a career change? Two, you may find that you can earn considerably more than you are now, which is always good news. Be prepared to take the new job if you get a reasonable offer. As long as you do your work diligently and treat your peers with respect, you can generally return to a former employer in the future. However, if you get a fair offer from a prospective employer, and you refuse it, they may not grant you another interview for a few years, so be selective.
It may be obvious, but this points out a few important rules.
1) Do not burn bridges. Ever. If I have to explain why, you just don't get it...
2) Play well with others. If that is hard for you, check into the personal development courses available at the local community college. Personal networking is your friend.
3) Don't be a wage slave. I have been doing this for over twenty years. Yeah, you are young now, but you are getting older every day. Get over it. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is worth working 6x12hr weeks. Short intervals of intense effort do happen (maybe a two or three weeks max) on an infrequent basis (twice a year max!). If your work place is habitually working over time, that is a management failure. Do not enable their bad behavior. Do be kind and supportive of your coworkers, but start looking and get out. (see rules 1 and 2 above)
4) Part of rule 3) above: Calculate your pay per hour as well as per year. I know people that make $80K per year working solid 35 hour weeks, and are quite happy. I also know people that are making $120K per year working 60 hours per week that are miserable. The first is making about $45/hour, the second is making $40/hour. The first has a lot more free time than the second. If you count the value of benefits, the spread is even worse.
5) No one gets paid top compensation during the first two years. Get over it. You have no track record, and the company will not compensate you at a high rate until you do. Once you have experience (two years minimum) start discussing compensation in earnest. That is your responsibility, not your employer. Also, this is when you start looking outside. Knowing your worth on the open market makes that salary review much easier.
5) It is, after all, work. Keep that in perspective. If it wasn't work, they would not have to pay you at all.
After they stop rotfl ....
Suck it up and get over it.
"Everyone cuts the schedule. If they didn't reduce the schedule from 8 to 6 days then they wouldn't be "productive". Get over yourself and learn to pad everything by the necessary 25% to 30% in time so that when they cut it out it's still attainable. But make sure it looks like a struggle doing it. If you get on schedule without massive OT then they cut goes from 25% to 35% to 45% and so on. One company I worked at they had a 75% fluff to every number just to survive all the management cuts that will come along during the budget reviews."
No, not everyone. Only PHBs act like that. If the company you work for has to do all that charade, and you _still_ end up with massive overtime, you've just told me you have a complete idiot for a boss. And let me get back to one particular management idiocy there:
"If they didn't reduce the schedule from 8 to 6 days then they wouldn't be "productive"."
No. Measuring productivity like that has got to count as not just clueless, downright surrelistic lack of clue. And let me give you just one reason why.
In this job everything can be done in 1001 ways, and about 900 of them are bad shortcuts. They involve write-only code, lack of testing, and generally just hoping that the quickest and dirtiest and most unmaintainable hack will just work on the first try. If you cut someone's time by 25% you've just told them to take such a bad shortcut.
The result isn't just bad unmaintainable code (which _will_ bite you in the ass when you want to make a v2.0), and not only just buggy, but it might blow the deadline even worse. Debugging bad code takes a lot longer, and debugging (in one form or another) is what you do some 90% of the time. A shortcut that's nearly impossible to debug, and nearly impossible to change into something else (e.g., when debugging says that your very choice of algorithm was wrong) will likely take longer to be ready.
Or it may never be ready. Someone I know is still stuck in a project that should have been finished in the last quarter of _2002_. But yeah, they were always under pressure, so they skipped testing almost completely until the end of 2004, they always fixed bugs via the quickest hack that can sorta work, never had time to figure out a _consistent_ way to implement that spec, or to get a good spec out of the client for that matter, and so on.
Having to add fluff to justify the deadline wrangling game, again, adds complexity and adds places where bad shortcuts will bite you in the ass.
So that kind of approach "productivity" just means making a bad product.
A product's architecture and the allocated time should involve understanding the pros and cons of each approach. That's what design is all about: making an informed choice, and knowing the price you pay for that choice. (And there will _always_ be a price to pay. In some cases it will just be much smaller than the gains.) Replacing it with a sad game in which management pats just themselves on the back for imposing an arbitrary 25% to 75% without even asking what's the effect, is pretty much _the_ nemesis of any kind of good design.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
"3. Personal Growth:"
;-)
This really is your first job isn't it?!
You never get the opportunity for growth at work. You'll only ever get training if it's free or has something directly to do with a task at hand and not the possibility of training you for your next job outside the company. Your boss is always mindful of people who could fill his shoes.
Personal growth is achieved by taking in a "Learn X in 21 Days" book and reading it in the slow times. Or surfing www.X-programming.com then getting a job at a new company.
I get personal growth at work. I specifically choose to work at companies that need skills that I haven't got (or at least not yet perfected), but find interesting. And I am quite open about it at interviews, so the employer knows that I am not an expert in their field from day one, but that I like to learn. And many employers appreciate that attitude.
Ok, so I don't learn things the university way anymore. I can perhaps only spare a day or so to study up on a new technology, the rest has to come little by little while working. Also I find I prefer stuff that is quick to learn (but takes a life time to master, as they say), if I get a choice. Since this is a current trend, I am in luck.
In my previous job, I didn't get any personal growth, so I had to overcompensate by doing hobby projects in my free time. Hobby projects are fun, but as I didn't get any kicks in the day time they more or less took over my life. That was a clear indication for me I had to get going.
Here are some other indicators that it is time to get out and move on !
You are expected to rapidly ramp up on working on certain equipment but you ask for training and you are told that no funding is available, therefore, no training. Meanwhile, money is budgeted for one of the fair hair boys can go to conferences which helps to establish his connections.
Request for vacation time met with alot of resistance and scrutiny even though you have the time such as "we have a lot of work do, it is not a good time to take vacation...". "We need you contact information while you are gone....". "Vacation is a privilege
You prefer to drive an older vehicle, one that is paid for and you are told by management to park it further out because one of the big-wigs don't like looking at it comong in and looking out their window. In addition, you are told that for the amount of compensation you receive, it would better reflect on you and the company that you drive a newer vehicle. I drive a 1991 pickup truck FYI.
The building you work in, your company leases several floors, other floors are leased to other people like dentists. The bathrooms are inadequate for the number of people on the floor. For the men's room, there are two urinals and two dumpers. For the women's room, there are three stalls. Most of the time, they are in use. You go to a different floor to use the bathroom because first, you don't want to wait and second, you want some peace and quiet especially to go number two. The bathrooms are not in the dental offices but in the public area by the elevators. You are seen on a different floor by someone and they report this to management. You are told that the bathrooms on other floors are meant for the dental clients and not for you. Going someplace to excrete is a personal thing and should not be subject to the whims of management.
The big-wigs decide on Thursday to call for a mandatory meeting on Friday at 3:30 in the afteroon. Forget about leaving town early enough to beat the traffic.
This is what I had to put up in the job I just left last week.
The second thing you need to consider is what kind of options they offer for career advancement. Will the company you're working for pay for graduate schooling in your field? What about management classes? How about industry certifications? If the answer to any of those three is no, the company is trying to trap you, by removing the path most employees use to get better jobs: Expanding on their experience and education. Plenty of companies now offer this benefit to developers, so if yours doesn't, find one that does. You'll thank me when you have that nanotechnology Ph.D.
Here's a real time saver: I've taken the article and cut out a lot of the fat and left just his pearls of wisdom. This is a guy we can all learn from.
.NET Ninjas. We were going to produce top-notch software for the nuclear power industry.
I was to be part of a team of highly skilled, versatile,
It did not go as planned. "You're not growing fast enough! You're barely in the middle of the pack." was the kind of feedback I was getting from my supervisor. My friends quickly learned I liked to talk about work less and less.
Only one thing kept me going -- pure ego.
They explained to me, in a level and professional tone, that I was going to be let go.
Always move on to another job when you'll be sorely missed at the present one. I've found it's easiest to find a new job while you already have a good job. It sucks to move on only to have mgmt say, "Good Luck!". I like to leave'em crying.
He discusses warning signs you should look for in your own work environment that point toward "Getting out".
Yes, it sounds like it's out of a fiction story, and in fact the first thing happens in the movie Office Space. But all three happened in one of the companies I worked for, before laying off a bunch of people.
It still did lots of damage by spewing radioactive materials all over the country. Much like the "dirty bombs" that are frequently cited as possible terrorist threat. Only that the Chernobyl reactor had a lot more radioactive inventory than a terrorist group might be able to obtain.
C - the footgun of programming languages
when you go to get your old job back everyone gets all freaked out and your old boss is like "dave you are all over the news what the fuck happened,you got to get out of here"
Belive me it aint worth it.
some kid learns what it's like to have a job. Now he's an expert. Lame.
reading his past posts he seems to bring up IBM most frequently
Agreed. There is a new "model" in the US, per the 'news' and talking heads - and they have it partially right.
Low-end workers (i.e., those easily replaced - burger flippers, entry level anything) are treated like cattle. Higher end workers, unless they own a piece of the company, are tolerated as long at their pay packages doen't get too high.
The rise of the 'independant consultant' on long-term contract seems the best way to go. At my firm, we have two people I work with daily who are full employees, but they have very niche jobs and very specific (and useful) skillsets. As a result, they telecommute (800 miles, in one case) and rarely come to an office, but they are happy. Downside - they'll never get promoted, and if our parent ever looks closely at them, they'll likely be let go - not because they aren't key people (they are - both are 'extreme problem solvers' who do great work), but because our parent can't think beyond the typical org structure. They aren't 'independant consultants' per se, but they may as well be. If they were let go tomorrow, we'd likely have to hire them back at least part-time to keep their projects running.
These two are professionally happy, well-compensated and will never leave unless kicked out - and they get stuff done, too.
Personally, short of owning my own business, they have the best deal ever.
By looking for what worked for them personally, they are actually doing a *better* job for our employer - whether the employer is smart enough to realize it is another. (They got their deals by having a particularly smart VP-level boss who signed off on their arrangements.)
Summary - be a cubicle monkey long enough to show you are a problem solver who gets good work done, then get as far away as you can and develop a broad, transferable skills base and a decent network - just keep in touch with the people you've solved problems for. They'll throw you work whenever they can - that skill and drive is not terribly common, IME.
Here is what you do. You graduate as a computer or electrical engineering student. You move to Northern VA. You contact a big defense contracter like Lockheed or Northrupp. You get them to hire you contingent upon you getting a clearance. You work on project X when you get your clearance. You now hate your job but guess what you have a clearance so you can basically be a warm body to fill a slot and have about a thousand options open to you. (Btw I hate the warm body slot filling thing but god do I see it all the time!)
News Reporters Make Tasty Polar Bear Treats!
Well, he makes the point that you should have your own office, and while that would be ideal, does anyone know of a company that has the resources to give each of its programmers their own office? I've worked for two organizations, both had a history of success, and at both I've been put in a cube-like structure. It might be good to look out for places that will give you a lot of personal space, but really, how common is that?
However, med school does not teach you Programming/Networking/System Diagnosis and Repair. It appears to have barely taught management.
Let me add to this. I'm about to talk in generalities which often don't apply to particular individuals but which anyone who has spent a lot of time around doctors will probably recognize. I work with doctors often and am married to one. I have the utmost respect for them as people, for what they do and for how hard they work.
Doctors aren't "barely taught management", they aren't taught it *at all* in many cases and certainly not formally. The medical school faculty often has little/no finacial or business experience beyond writing grant proposals so there is no one to learn from. The first time most of them see a balance sheet or a budget is post-residency. Doctors usually learn people management through the experience of a pretty severe hazing process called med-school/residency. In some ways it's understandable since learning medicine is incredibly demanding and it's frankly unreasonable to expect them to pick up a MBA along the way. (though some do...) Oh, there are some feeble efforts to integrate some business training here and there but it's nothing coherent or especially helpful. Ask most residents what contribution margin or EBITDA is and they'll look at you like you've grown horns.
Often a reason many doctors are bad managers is due to personality traits. Many have a bit of a god complex. They're incredibly smart and have typically suceeded at everything they've done their whole life. This isn't entirely bad as patients don't like doctors who seem unsure of themselves. Plus to do some of the things they do (i.e. brain surgery), they have to have confidence coming out their ears. They couldn't survive otherwise. But know-it-all tendancies combined with their lack of knowledge business/engineering knowledge is regularly a bad combination from a management standpoint.
Some specialties (surgery in particular) are known for attracting individuals with excellent technical but poor interpersonal skills. (Sound familiar to anyone here?...) Many do become good managers in time but they learn it through either natural aptitude or through long experience rather than through a curiculum.
Another problem is that doctors have to be careful to avoid ethical conflicts. Doctors feel they have an obligation to provide the best medical care possible, whatever the cost. It's very easy to let money corrupt how one treats patients. It's laudable and the ethically proper thing to do. Of course the obvious problem is that it's impossible to afford to do everything possible for every patient. There simply isn't enough money out there. So instead of trying to do the most for the most, too many do their impression of an ostrich on financial matters and complain loudly whenever anyone tells them "no". Since they are typically in charge, many aren't accustomed to having to justify their actions. It's a difficult situation to be sure but one that deserves more attention than it gets.
From a computer/technical standpoint, most doctors I know only know enough about computers to look up information, write the odd document in word and maybe can use excel or powerpoint. Not that they couldn't learn more, they're certainly smart enough. They just aren't interested and/or don't have the time. Not exactly shocking that they tend to make poor IT managers, especially in light of some of the previous common personality traits I've mentioned.
My job that I had while I was *in* college, there was less privacy than if I'd had a cubicle: just a desk, out in the open computer lab. Not only co-workers but the general public chattering all around me. And yet I got a lot more done than I typically do in a cubicle. My next two jobs after getting out of college were the same way.
So it can't just be about privacy, and it can't just be about noise levels. There has to be something about the little square box that inherently saps productivity, independently of the aforementioned factors.
where there's fish, there's cats
"A players hire A players, B players hire C players"
Then how do you get B players?
Am I open minded towards open source, or closed minded towards closed source?
Everyone,
/. effect, no?
I aplogize that my hosting company is not up to the job. I guess the way to test your hosting company is to see if they can withstand the
Thankfully, another site has offered to mirror the article: http://sys-con.com/read/137855.htm
--Chris Wilson
http://www.christopherwilson.net/blog/
http://www.christopherwilson.net/soapbox/
Big supprise there... but he sure sounds like he has a lot of management potential, the whole "you should be paying us for the privlage of working here"
> ...as much as we may dislike cubicles, a blanket statement like "working in
> cubicles is the sure sign that you're not working for a successful company"
> is... well, a sure sign that the article's author hasn't worked at many
> companies.
Agreed. Cubicles can be an indicator, though. There are so many different styles. I would look at the working environment provided in the cubicle, and determine if it's mindless penny-pinching or part of a reasonable plan.
- Is the desktop space adequate for the work you need to do?
- Do you have adequate storage space, both shelves and file drawers?
- Is the cubicle height reasonable? Higher walls minimize distractions.
- Is the environment particularly noisy?
- Is the size of most people's cubicles significantly reduced because they are used for storing supplies, equipment, and files that have nothing to do with their work? *
- Are adequate conference facilities available for brainstorming sessions and other -productive- meetings?
- Are developers actively discouraged from forwarding calls to voice mail or performing other tactics used to minimize interruptions temporarily?
- Is hard disk space, either local or network, in unusually short supply?
Comments? Other warning factors?
--------
* I worked in one office where everyone's cubicle space was reduced by the size of between four and ten of those long boxes for file folders. Some people could barely get to their desks, and all because the company was too cheap to either get storage space or get rid of old (non-financial) files and obsolete hardware.
Well, after reading TFA, instead of coming away with a sense that he's giving good advice, I've come away with the sense that he hasn't been out of school long enough and worked at enough places to give any useful advice in this area...
If you follow his advice you'll do nothing but job-hop your entire career...
Yes, cubes suck.
Yes, managers can be dumb and pig-headed.
Waahhhh! I'm smarter than my manager, who's too old and feeble to know what he's talking about...
I think the author needs to grow up a little...
Goofy, Geeky Gifts and More!
I even had mod points, but I blew them by posting before I saw this.
where there's fish, there's cats
It really is a matter of finding the right company. There are plenty of companies which will pay for training, for trips to conferences (or else conferences wouldn't happen! they are driven by employers sending people), and so on. I get to stretch my brain doing new things at work on a regular basis... and frankly, I can't make myself learn new things without something to apply them to, most of the time anyway.
You just have to shop around.
---- My Design, Code, Ruby on Rails blog: http://www.slash7.com/
It was early May of 2004, and I was almost at the finish line for my degree. Between me and graduation: Just two summer classes. I was in the process of finishing what could only be described as the most intense spring semester of my college career.
/.!?
So, the guy got out of college either August or September, 2004. That's 13 months ago. He was at his new job for presumably 12 months (1 year), and now his advice is worthy of a front page article on
He has a few points that are worthy, and a lot of points that aren't. In return, I would like to offer him some advice. After 1 year you think you fully understand the system. You don't. Like it or not, you'll realize this in a couple more years.
I've gone through a couple shitty jobs, and for one, I could kick myself for ignoring all the signs that indeed it was time to leave. That said, even that was a learning experience, and I think it shows professionaly too since I got a better paying and better environment job after that.
So the guy's fresh, has some bitching to do, fine. But advice!? Gimme a break... He sounds more like Mr. Smarty Pants, exactly where I was 1 year out of college. (FYI, it's been 12 years since I left college.)
Most companies have cubicles, and the ones that don't have open offices with no walls of any kind. Does this mean they are not forward thinking, successful companies? No, it means they are not wasting a bunch of money on private offices and may actually turn a profit. I've worked places with the fancy offices that "catered" to developers, and I've worked at places with $50 IKEA desks thrown together in the big room. Guess which companies are still in business.
IBM has offices at many sites, I'd guess HP.
Let's see what was said.
.net programmer with no real business experience.
Management said that it would happen shorter than my estimate it was right. Old hand said to do it a faster way which was not perfect, but I ignored him. Just do it (JFDI).
Arrogance in a programmer is a good thing but to NOT underestimate 20 years of experience and dismiss it, listen and learn. Learn to temper the arrogance, 'I can fix your server because I read a couple of books on the weekend'. I would run away scared to.
I worked for a company that called me a gun
Startups are great experience, they push you in ways you never thought possible. You may be a star programmer or you may be truly bad and should be pumping gas at a service station.
There's now a complete version here, published with Chris Wilson's consent so as to prevent, as he puts it, "angry slashdotters blasting me because my hosting company can't handle it."
As soon as the offer for the better job is signed.
While not all companies can afford offices to be built for our IT Staff (I'm the network admin), we did get brand new cubes with 6ft walls. We are the envy of all other departments now :). I found the easiest solution to 'getting in the zone' in my cube is investing in a nice pair of headphones and an external drive for all my music.
You're absolutely right. I don't know of a single large company that *doesn't* use cubes. It makes me question the writer's knowledge of...anything. He admits he didn't do anything to look for a job, didn't even bother to listen to alumni dispensing career advice because it was "all very, very dry." He grabbed the first one that made an offer, and got disillusioned when they canned him. Well, duh. Put a little effort into that job search, you'll have less chance of that happening.
There are other signs that make me think I'd like to hear management's side of the story. For one, he sounds like a prima donna. His sole qualification is a Bachelors in CS from a middle tier school, and he acts like he should be given the golden boy treatment in his first job. An office for a kid who knows .NET? Company car?!?!? Sorry, Charlie, the 90's are gone and that crap's over.
Also, he sounds a bit arrogant - implying that anyone over 40 doesn't know what they're doing, mentions that management didn't take his advice, etc. That could be true, or it could be that he's an arrogant little man who can't constructively work as part of a team.
I also wonder how good he was at his job - he says that management told him he wasn't picking up the work fast enough, and that he was just "barely middle of the pack." He says that was them "setting the employees up for failure." Yeah, that's one option. That or they don't think he's getting the job done.
Finally, this wasn't a mass firing. The impression I got was that he was selected to be let go among the team. He claims they blamed it on finances, but legally they would anyway, in all likelihood.
We only have one side of this story - it could well be another case of a kid coming out of college with a ton of arrogance, no respect for people who have a ton more experience than he, skills that didn't translate to his job, and a problem working with others. Perhaps there's a reason he was canned?
The Access example given is a good strawman arguement, but in other cases the boss is there to say we don't need a fully fault tolerant tool to count to 10, where a for loop works just as well.
Learning is a two way street here. Sometimes things need to be done in a way which answers other questions to which you are not even aware of their existance. If your boss asks you to do it in a particual way, pehaps you should ask Why? and see if there is a need or reason from some other requirement that answers that.
Boss: I need application foo to do x, y, z(prime, delta, gamma...)
Me: Okay, sure. 6 Weeks.
Boss: 3 Days.
Me: !!?!?!
And while I did get the hell out of that job, I did learn that I was pushed to build tools quickly and design application that where able. Plus I learned another lession- build tool kits. In my current job (4 years and counting), I've built a huge took kit, everything from logging tools, to database handlers, to user sub-systems, and even a complete help system which will taken an entire directory and translate the word files into a help file.
Since 90% of the stuff we're developing is simplely made of problems that we've been solving since our first programming classes, having these toolkits makes life so much easier and less stressful, especially when you do have those insane deadline bosses.
If the company is willing to pay for your classes, great, if not, save and pay for your own.
Overtime is part of the deal when being a full time salary employee- sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
I agree with the final thoughts- I will add that figure out what makes you happy, and look for companies that offer things that are close to your goals and then try to get into those companies- and if that means you're going to have to wait a few years for an opening, so be it.
III.IIVIVIXIIVIVIIIVVIIIIXVIIIXIIIIIIIIVIIIIVVIII
Duing the 15 years I ran my own computer consulting business I discovered one nice test to determine what small business owners actually feel about the welfare of their employees:
Are the bathrooms kept clean and stocked?
Employers who don't care about their employees usually don't care about the employees environment. The employee bathrooms are pig styes.
Some other tips I picked up through experience:
Larger businesses and corporations usually have janitorial services so for them the "Bathroom Test" doesn't apply. In that situation the best way to evaluate the corporate environment is to talk with the in-house coders, if any, or other employees. If their remarks suggesst managers whose behavior indicates that they are graduates of the Atilla The Hun School of Management then its time to investigate other opportunities. Paper clip counting is a dead give-away.
If the PCs and other hardware are antiquated or poorly maintained its time to look elsewhere.
If most of the employees are recent hires themselves but the company has been around for a while then its time to look elsewhere.
If they want you to punch a clock then look elsewhere.
If they want you will be "salaried" instead of you billing them and there is no cap on the hours you'll be working then look elsewhere.
Which leads to: If they want you to violate one or more of the 20 or so IRS rules that determine if you are an independent consultant or an employee then look elsewhere.
If they are paying you out of a "special" fund then look elsewhere.
If they want you to code two sets of book, one for the IRS and one "just to give them a bottom line" then look elsewhere.
If the secretary confides in you that the boss is running a prostitution ring on the side, and those bobcats from California have cocain welded into the 4X4 bucket support beams, you'd better be looking elsewhere.
If the owner is a business partner with the local IRS agent then you'd better look elsewhere.
If employers don't respect the law then they won't respect the employees or the consultant.
If employers don't respect their employees they won't respect the consultants they hire.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
Those aren't the only two choices. The best environment is to work in an XP-style project room, with everyone clustered around a central table full of machines, working in pairs, and able to trivially bat questions and design ideas back and forth.
The second-best environment to work in, if you and your team can solve the resulting communication issues, is a virtual office environment out of your own home. If you do wind up having to work longer hours, it's far more sustainable to do it from the comfort of your own home, and the time you would have spent on a commute can be productive time. And it's clothing-optional. :-)
yeah, I'm sure the best person around to take career advice is some kid who graduated from a not very prestigious university only a little over a year ago who then makes sweeping statements based on his epic 12 months of life in the real world. Sorry but someone in his position should just shut the fuck until they have some genuine experience.
Plays violent online games as: Nerfherder76
This is a guy who got fired from his first job, generalizes about cubicles and, for the most part, doesn't carry any of the blame on his own shoulders.
In a way he sounds like every guy I ever knew who got layed off or fired. I've seen people from my company get fired and it was clear to me what the reason was. The person getting fired, though, can't always accept it.
He shouldn't have been hired in the first place.
IT interviewer:
"Bob, thanks for coming out and interviewing... you've just graduated, congratulations... could you breifly describe the kind of working conditions that would bring out your best work?"
interviewee:
"Well, I'd like my own office, $76,000 a year, 401k matching, and 40 hour work week."
iterviewer:
"I think we can do that for you, seeing as your a recent graduate, not only that but you can have your own secretary, 4 weeks paid vacation, and a company car, we will also pay for your cellphone and country club dues, what do you think of that?"
iterviewee:
excitedly "you're kidding right?"
interviewer:
"Yes, Bob, I am kidding... but you started it"
Based on his description, the place he was fired from may very well be in the upper half of the industry. His points are valid. I try to realize them in my companies. But statistically speaking, the vast majority of software engineering opportunities do not satisfy his stated objectives.
One of two things are going to happen:
1. The kid is going to be beaten down to accepting the conditions he criticized so adamantly.
OR
2. The kid is going to start his own company.
I hope it is the latter.
Like reading \. all day?
Constitutionally Correct
There's no doubt that many people have been doing process control using OPC (OLE for Process Control), but that doesn't mean it was ever a good idea.
.NET. Sadly, it appears that OPC/.NET will rely on asynchronous communication to satisfy requirements that are truly synchronous. Tough luck for the industry, OPC is such a low-level protocol that it was never able to successfully address the timeout and service availability issues of COM/DCOM, much less those of the .NET infrastructure.
.NET makes me feel better about the nuke community. Now if the building automation and process control guys would get it. (In BAS, we still don't realize how shakey the foundation of BACnet/IP is...)
Granted, on a completely closed network (a carefully restricted workgroup with NO connections to other PCs), OPC was a solution of sorts. However, the security and network issues are such that nobody in their right mind will allow an OPC connection (DCOM) in a normal network and expect it to support mission-critical applications. The right place for mission-critical OPC is in a COM solution, within the boundaries of a single box.
Now the OPC industry, not willing to accept that MS sold them a bill of goods with this technology, is now trying to find ways to patch this fixer-upper into something usable by routing it through
Maybe someday the industry will grow up, and realize that interoperability is a good thing, but you need to build it upon a better foundation than MS technologies that were originally designed for interprocess communication, and not intra-network RPC (that was patched on later). Until we mature to that level, all industries using OPC technology are going to suffer, but those of us who fight the daily battles will be gainfully employed.
Tim
P.S. Knowing that there are safeguards built in that keep us from relying on OPC and
I work for a very succesful company and frankly there are far worse fates the cubes. One project team had to work in a room with no walls at all...just a sea of desks to "encourage" ideas and discussion....so no idea got lost. No privacy in a cube? Picture having your monitor visable to 10 other coworkers...at all times. It's actually became common practice for projects of that sort to do the "bullpen" thing. (The project in question was a major software migration, the team was a mix of consultants and in house specailists.)
(parts of this previously posted by me)
The social contract is broken irretrievably, and we all need to adapt to the new reality. The new reality is, don't get too comfortable, keep the resume up to date, and move on the minute things are the slightest bit fishy. Some signs to look for:
o No more free pens in the stockroom, now the admin hands them out one by one and makes you sign for them.
o An all-company memorandum from the CEO shows up suddenly, responding to hallway rumors or soft-pedaling bad news.
o The perennial blame game between Sales, Marketing, and Engineering stops simmering and comes to a full boil in the hallway.
o A top executive (any top executive) leaves mysteriously.
o Sales guys start leaving (more than one is big trouble)
o "The Board" starts poking around and introducing themselves to people.
o A routine purchase request for equipment is turned down, regardless of justifications presented.
o There is an odd new emphasis on collections activity.
o "Investors" start showing up for tours of the engineering department.
o The annual customer conference is canceled or postponed.
o A delivery date is moved forward inexplicably, without consulting the engineers on the project.
o It is impossible to get a reasonable explanation from your boss for a clearly unreasonable situation or request.
o You are asked to stop work and "document" your project at a time that seems inappropriate and wrong.
o You are asked to sign any document "acknowledging" your equity position (if any), when it should be abundantly clear what your equity position is.
One small way to protect yourself (and to acquire information about the company's activities that they would not normally share with you) is to take advantage of any stock purchase plan (real stock, not options) put forward, and buy a few shares (preferably as few as possible). This will at least make you privy to the legal documents around acquisition scenarios and so on.
But the best way to protect yourself is to get the resume engine revved up the minute you see the warning signs above. No need to delay. Get the hell out.
Right! Cubicles are more efficient ... if you ignore the costs of lost productivity, slower time-to-market, greater risk of errors from distraction, better employees moving to productive environments ...
Aside from many astute observations about this poor boy, laid off and never having received his: company car, millions of dollars, etc., I would add that anyone who describes themselves as Ninja in .NET, and with a kung fu grip of .NET still has a ways to go before earning others' respect.
Also, for a look at the other end of a career a getting laid of, take a read of my post.
I sometimes wonder about those who somehow think by the time they've "worked" for one year they should have it all.
I am not sure who put those grand ideas in your head about what the "real" world was going to be like, but I'll bet it was your higher education.
They pumped your ego up and made you think the working world would roll out a big leather chair and slide you into your own office and shower you with tons of cash.
Then you discovered it doesn't work that way.
I guess the only thing to say is welcome to the "real" world.
Slashdot - Where the slash is most definitely to the left.
"It's not my job to respect you."
When he said that to a co-worker then flipped out on everyone else over something that was totally not that person's fault. It was time to get out.
- keith
-- Does anybody know where the 'any' key is on the keyboard?
you're a crybaby. no one will hire you if you expect them to give you an office and conform to all of your silly demands. sometimes we work in cubes. sometimes (often) managers are older and set in their ways. sometimes your estimated project time just isn't soon enough, and someone else will be found that can get it done yesterday. you've got a lot to learn, grasshopper.
/. isn't the place to refer to yourself as a ".NET ninja" and be taken seriously. sheesh.)
now that you've written all this blabbing and signed your name to it, any potential employer who has the sense to search google for your name with trash your resume in a heartbeat.
go work for a few more years before you start handing out "advice" like this...
(also,
The typical 4% or so raise that a company "gives" it's employees each year is no more than an inflation adjustment. For instance, after working for 3 years getting a 2-4% raise each year you have no more spending power than you did the first year because the cost of goods and services also went up by roughly the same amount. It is typical to get a 10% pay raise when you move to a new job at a different company.
I totally agree with the parent. There's no shame in being a "job hopper" in the current day and age. The fact is you are being proactive when you hop. One of the best selling points during an interview is that you are currently employed. This gives you great negotiating leverage in that you do not need the new job. You want it for a specific reason. And they better come to your terms or you'll just keep your current job.
Another factor for switching jobs is that you must have a strategy. Getting to the next rung on the pay scale is a strategy. But it'll bite you later if your expertise is not also further focused and narrowed. Each job switch should make you more of an expert in your specific field. Don't be a software developer and then take a job as a network admin then a mainframe maintenance person then implementing a document managment system. You're all over the map. You'll hit a point when you can't get higher pay because you're not an expert in anything.
Be proactive and have a strategy.
That's one way to look at it..
The other way is to look at the fact that's he's only one year out of college, and already hating the typical IT field. If we're not graduating enough engineers as it is, and not keeping the ones that we are graduating.. You do the math.
If they can pay your paycheck and you get benefits who cares about the stupid cubicle? Going to work is about getting paid.
-------------------------------------
Technically, we are beyond survival.
The inexperience of the author is overwhelmingly evident in the "take no crap, live in my fantasy world" tone that he takes. Don't work in cubicles? Yea right, so where is the other 95% of the IT industry going to work since they are now barred from working at any company which doesn't piss away all it's money on overpriced urban real estate so every junior level coder can have their own office. To equate a company's respect for it's employees with whether or not they give you an office is a clear fallacy and will bar the author from working at many, many fine companies. Don't get me wrong, I hate cubeland too...HATE it. As a noncomformist it really rubs me the wrong way. However, it's the reality of what you have to put up with in this industry. It's a minor complaint in the grand scheme of things.
He rambles on with the usual "the boss doesn't take my genius advice" garbage too. It's not surprising and I certainly had my complaints about how they did things at the company I was laid off from a year out of college. However, that's how things are. Your goal should be getting in to a company where the higher-ups make good decisions so you don't HAVE to feel like everyone is stupider than you. I think a lot of times it's a corporate culture issue and you need to find a place which does things the same way you would do them. It doesn't necessarily mean that a company is bad just because everything isn't done the way you want it. The higher ups are the higher ups and they are going to do things they way they want to do them whether you agree with them or not. If the company is doing stupid things, I would agree that it could be a warning sign, but this dude frames it as though his junior level advice is supposed to matter. It's good to have a boss that listens to everyone, but sometimes you do not understand all the factors involved.
One of the most important things I think you learn working for companies in offices your first couple years out is office and company politics. There are SO many factors that go into decision making beyond what is technically important. Sometimes those other factors result in bad technical implementation, but a lot of times those other factors are just the reality of doing business and you need to accept them and work with them rather than chafing against them with the "I'm a genius" attitude the author takes. You as the junior level employee are not always privy to all the information which goes in to making a decision.
Certainly, there are bad managers and bad companies out there, but I think this dude is just not framing his advice in the right way. He comes off as the bitter, smarter than you tech worker who just got laid off. I think his attitude is part of the learning process, but I also think that he is giving bad advice to people who may be in a similar situation. He's making it out as if you're going to find a utopian place to work in your first couple years out: not going to happen for most people. I certainly don't encourage anyone to stay somewhere they're not happy, but you need to think about the balance of experience you're getting and what you're going to do in the future. If you keep quitting jobs because they're not treating you like a king, you will never, ever get a job you really like. When you're on the bottom rung sometimes you need to suck it up and put in your time. A lot of times, as you get more experience, things will start to make more sense to you.
I don't mean to come off as the jaded gray cubeland dweller. I certainly want to change certain things where I work and I am not exactly a conformist on any level. However, there are things you learn with experience that you just don't learn any other way. Now, with a couple years under my belt, I am just starting to understand why things are done the way they are. I am fortunate to be at a company which I think makes really excellent policies, in general, and being here it's easy to see that there are things I don't understand which actually result in a network that works pretty well. Coming to understand those factors is what you learn by sticking it out and not demanding the corner office right away.
theres another flip side to lay-off... ./ geeks, its a pathetic experience to work everyday knowing the lousy guys get the ladder up, while u work at the lowest level possible.
This is where I feel layoff is better since u can start with the acceptance of hypocrisy in the next job....
the hypocrisy!! all those 'we are better employers...we recognise talent...'
and all that BS!!
You still stay on job, but whats the use? u wont get any recognition. atleast in my case, I worked my butt off & then when the dreadful time for promotions & raises came thru, our employer selected a sick pathetic guy, who didnt even work for 7hrs a day at a client-site(forget efficiency). Dont tell I m jealous or something....A quick run thru well known employers will reveal similar cases. Yes, I have the freedom of getting out anytime I want but the laziness & personal stuff creeps in & this is what some need to conquer upon too. Believe me
Be thankful for your cubical. One of the top level executives at our company decided that cubicals cut down on inter-departmental communication. So... down came the cubical walls. I now work in a totally open office. EVERYONE can see what is on my monitor ALL THE TIME. Since I spend a large part of my time doing solid modeling and FEA work, I have an audience far more often than I would like. I do not work well in a fishtank. Ironically, the home office (where top-lvl-exec spends most of his time) has cubicals. Just us unwashed red-headed step children that can't. The only silver lining is I have a test lab I can hide in when I want to browse me a little /.
-
enjoy(dilbert) = you / enjoy(job)
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
but if you end up in a job where an asshole demands your presence there 14 hours a day, and occasionally that you bring a sleeping bag and don't leave until he sees some program ready (yes, I've actually seen such an asshole)
Oh, so you worked for Apple back in the day, huh? That must have been fun working for an asshole making you work 14 hours a day, all the while, he was trippin his balls off!!
Do what I say, cuz I said it.
-Meatwad
Since you are freelancing, create a small LLC corporation that you own. The existence of this corporation is a public record that you can point to and say 'I've been doing *that*'.
Worked for me. Congrats on finding a good place to be...
When I was a code monkey at a manufacturing company in the midwest, it was well-known that we were going to go through a down-sizing. But nobody bothered telling anyone when. The first date given was in September. September came and went without any problems. The next date given was in early December. Then in the week between Thanksgiving and the first week of December my team held their team "christmas" meeting. We were doing the 'gift-exchange-thing' and then afterwards holding our monthly team meeting. So, we exchange gifts, then during the meeting part we were assigning upcoming projects. As the meeting went on, two things occurred to me: 1) I wasn't being assigned any projects; 2) the projects I was working on were being given to other people!!!!!! Talk about a hint.
It turned out that the company pushed off their downsizing until AFTER the holidays. So, I got paid to do nothing for the month of December. When January came along I was given a severance package for 3 months plus my official release date wasn't until Feb. 1. Part of the severance package was a 'free' out-placement service. By the time I got home that day (I stopped at a few bars before going home to party a bit) I had 4 messages from headhunters; 2 guaranteed interviews. Within 2 weeks I had another job to start in Mid-Feb. I took a few months off. Played lots of video games. Drank lots of beer. Enjoyed being laid-off.
I work for an extremely successful software company (Google is one of our clients) - I work in a cubicle - The office is in Chicago's Merchandise Mart - for those of you about to rock, I salute you, but for those of you who don't know, the MM takes up two entire city blocks (which in Chicago means it's 1/8 mile x 1/4 mile), has its own zip code and is the largest commercial building in the world - Only 5% of the people who work in the building are fortunate enough to have an office on an exterior wall of the building (with a window!) - where the hell are they going to put everybody else? build offices out of the whole scenario? Perhaps I'm a sucker, but I'd rather work with my headphones on (like I would anyway) and have the company's money go toward the huge bonus I'll get at the end of every year for working hard than toward them re-modeling the interior of this building - work is just where I work to get money to do the things I do when I'm not at work - the cubicle (or "office" as I like to call it) is the least of my issues
I rate this article a 2 out of 5 - if the kid hadn't put his graduation year in the article, I still would have been able to guess his age just from his idealistic rant with little real substance - "don't work for a manager that's an idiot" - Brilliant advice, captain underpants! yes, it's true that it's difficult to work for someone you don't respect, but in the real world (aka, not in your high school honors class) you're going to work with people who are of different levels of intelligence, people with different types of analytical skills, etc. Calling everybody stupid just because you're, as mentioned in the article, 'disillusioned' is what we call (in the grown up world) "being a fucking baby" - which we normally follow with "grow up"
calling all destroyers
Marge: I think Bart and Lisa are feeling a little upset right now. Isn't there something you'd like to say?
Homer: There sure is. Kids, you tried your best, and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.
-- "Burns' Heir"
Always be aware of the writing on the wall. Generally, bankruptcy makes for a really bright red flag.
Also, they had taken away the water coolers. Another pretty good sign.
In my last few days, they told me that as a non-exempt employee, my status would have been determined by performance, not how long I'd worked there (I was the youngest). I didn't perform too badly, but honestly, I wasn't going to stick around and find out.
Also, networking is a great thing. It's how I got my current job.
-Rob
Biblical fiscal responsibility
The truth is that company loyalty shouldn't be expected anymore; the people that extoll their adoration your work, dilligence and effectiveness are the very same ones that will let you go. You leave a job when the job doesn't satisfy your own personal balance of perks and financial compensation. This may sound unreasonably cynical, and certainly, things are seldom black & white, but alas, staying somewhere because of some quaint, Pleasantville-era work ethic has a much more negative net effect on your life than simply quitting and forging ahead.
When do you quit? As many here have noted, when that first round of layoffs is announced, when the perks and benefits start being trimmed, when it is painfully clear that the environment in which you work is more of a pean to mediocrity than a medium for productivity. I know, I know. I've just effectively nixed most companies (even some successful ones,) but the truth is that in the post-internet-resume world, IT workers are commodities (whether here or in India) and workplace egotism in a necessary evil.
We are all mercenaries. Don't do pensions, don't recite the latest company mantra, don't put up with abusive bosses, deadwood or pervasive mediocrity and don't bet on the come. Get your money when you can, stash it away (for you never know if you'll see it again) and retire on your terms.
Cubicles can be just fine, but here's a clue to know when they are NOT: when the noise coming in past them makes it harder to work. I've had cubes that were just fine for working in, and I've had some that were awful. The better ones were dividers in smaller areas, so that just my own team was there. There was a wall between us and the main runway to the bathroom/breakroom. If there were meetings, it was my own team and I was probably attending it. One phone call generally didn't have the power to disturb many others. The worst cube areas tended to be in a huge open space, so that many teams were there. With so many people in one space, noise is always coming from phone calls, hallway meetings, group meetings in some cube and so on. To make matters worse, these arrangement tended to have the teams' members scattered throughout, making hallway meetings more likely. I recommend "PeopleWare: Productive Projects and Teams" by Tom DeMarco and Timothy Lister for anyone working in computing. They help put good explanations and even dollar values on things that always seemed wrong in some corporate environments, but were hard to explain to some managers. Their chapters on cost of space versus worker productivity are very good, and they cite real research from many sources. A quote from Chapter 9: Saving Money on Space: "Workers who reported before the exercise that their workplace was acceptably quiet were one-third more likely to deliver zero-defect work."
Heh, welcome to the real world kid. Suck it up and be a man, and move on.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Cubes can end up being a good workspace if laid out correctly in an environment which provide some semblence of privacy.
When I worked as an IT employee for Northwest Airlines, for example, the building I worked in (MSP Building J, i.e. "the computer center") had a white noise generator in the center area that did a very good job of drowning out conversations that were more than ten feet or so away. One could easily stand up and talk to the person next to you thanks to the relatively low cube walls (I'm 6'1", and they were above my head level when sitting but about elbow height on me when standing) which was nice when discussion stuff with the teammate next door, but conversations in the next row were almost impossible to hear when sitting down.
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
100% of the people are on the road 100% of the time to scrounge money from internal customers or to do work at internal customer sites. There is no sales staff and all employees are told that they have a new milestone of personally scrounging X dollars from the business units. The only plan to change the situation is to do the wrong thing harder. Senior employees are told they are a burden and should think about leaving.
These are sure signs that you are working for an organization that has no idea what to do with itself or its own people, and is just surviving for the sake of its own survival. This is a career trap. Start packing your personal effects.
that it took them a year to weed this clueless newbie out of the pack. I'd bet that his supervisor tried to let him go a half-dozen times over that period but *his* boss blocked it. Maybe the kid should have listened to that negative feedback he was getting from his managers who were probably trying to make him productive enough so that the company could profit from his work. That's the whole idea, you know. Now, instead of learning from this as he should have, he'll take all his misconceptions about how he *should* have been treated to his next job; which will last six months. In ten years - unless this boy clues up - he'll have one of those resumes with 23 jobs on it to proudly present to number 24. Learn from this example, boys and girls.
No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
He makes a few valid points but mostly he sounds a lot like that whiner last week who went on about how unreasonable college is and how unfair it was to wonderful him.
---
Cubicles are a fact of life.
Deadlines are a fact of life.
I'll give him a few points on management but -until- you get street cred by delivering solutions that work a few times, your opinion is not going to have a lot of weight. Past there it is a reality of the field, that managers make the decision and vendors take them to lunch.
I also agree that given the loyalty companies show us, that working regular overtime is foolish. If you are always working overtime/in an emergency- management is understaffing. They won't know they are understaffing unless failure to deliver actually occurs.
And I agree with him that loyalty will never be repaid. You may be laid off at any time, including right after delivering a major project that is going to save the company a lot of money.
I could blame him and say he needed to LISTEN to his professors and choose his first job more carefully, but in today's environment, any job is good and the classic catch-22 in IT is you have to have experience to get a job.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
It's what another poster said with the Heinlein quote re. experts. I was in research/academia, am an Ph.D. as opposed to an M.D. And OTOH, the graduate school experience teaches you self-reliance, figure it out-ness, OTOH, no training, no management class, no people skills. Yet these are the brightest minds who run their own labs and projects (project management), who write grants and get funding (CFO, venture cap.), deal with personalities and believe me there are plenty of personalities in academia (HR/admin). And this cycle continues over and over. I've had people who basically tell me that what I do is easy (I produce educational content websites -- I often write the content too) and they could do it if they really want to but it's not important enough ...
It's a strange dicotomy that promotes the self-reliance until it becomes the God complex without sprinkling in a bit of common sense and self-analysis.
I find it difficult to take career advice from a guy who's been in the working world barely a year.
This happened to me this very year, not to mention they tried their hardest to forget to pay me severance, my vaction pay, any way they could cheap out.
Sounds like a classic "last period" problem where there is a greater chance of "opportunistic behavior" when a "relationship" is ending.
It also sounds like the company is either poorly managed or near it's end. Remaining employees are likely to learn of your treatment. The one time I had the opportunity to witness a company in trouble it at least had management that was smart enough to take care of the people in early layoffs very well. This was reassuring to those who remained and gives the impression that the problems are temporary and survivable.
FWIW, when I quit my last job I did so on my return from vacation.
These are all really good indicators of trouble. You really hit the nail on the head here. I have been through this several times myself. Another indicator that I've seen is when a company starts selling off longer term type assets (land, buildings, etc.)
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
There are several lessons that the author--who is clearly little experienced in the work force--should take away here. For one thing, posting about the "signs" that he should've seen, particularly when those signs are generally wrong, doesn't come off as good advice to people who've been professionals for awhile. It comes off as sour grapes. Why is he wrong? Let's find out.
Cubicles are of the devil
Repeat after me: No, they're not. With proper soundproofing tiles on the ceiling and carpetted floors, you should be able to hear only your closest neighbors, and drowning them out is what comfortable headphones are for. If you can't get into the zone and do quality work, that's a personal issue, not your employer's. If you are having a hard enough go of it, you should talk to your manager about the problem.
Management is stupid
Generally, you can't get away from this. However, the cases that he cites as management incompetence really weren't necessarily icompetence at all. The author was upset because people like working the way they're most efficient. He seems to think that every new piece of technology makes people more efficient, which is a belief that is only held by recent college graduates. The problem with new technology is that it requires time to retrain your brain. And if the technology really is more efficient (and I would argue that few new languages truly have resulted in massive productivity increases), the question becomes: is the new technology so efficient that the retraining costs will be overcome by the productivity increase we'll get when everyone is running full speed? Usually, the answer is no, or at best "maybe." That's not something you want to stake the future of the company on, which is what you're doing at a small company.
Further, he was upset that after he studied for a few hours, management wasn't convinced that he was the right person to do a full reformat/install of their primary development server. WHAT A SHOCKER! If he were a real go-getter, he would've come in anyways, so he could've learned what the actual problems were going to be during the procedure. Then next time he was somewhere where this came up, he could've at least had cursory experience with the issue.
Personal Growth
I can't really disagree when he says companies should provide mechanisms for personal and professional growth. But what I can say is that when management is telling you that you are in the middle of the pack, look inward. If they're telling you that you're middle of the pack, you're probably actually closer to the bottom. If you feel you're working your hardest and management is telling you that you're not doing a great job, it might be that it's time for a career change.
Compensation isn't everything
That's true, but on the other hand, no one wants to be paid less than they're worth. The key here is that if you're at a job that makes you happy, you'll be more productive and a better employee. Consequently, you'll be recognized by your employer, and generally compensated more.
Final thoughts
It seems to me that what happened in this situation is the author was inexperienced and didn't realize what he'd gotten himself into. His job was a high-risk, high-reward situation. The company promised him ground-floor entry into what they thought was going to be a big hit. Turns out they weren't right, and he hadn't done his due diligence first. The theory with startups is that you churn and burn, and when you're done you can retire at 25. Of course, the reality is that 99% of startups fail and employees are left with nothing but the experience.
When interviewing for a position, the most important thing is to realize that you're interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you. During the interview, when asked if you have any questions, ask if you can meet some of the other team members you'll be working with alone. Tell them you'd like to get a feel for the l
I currently have no clever signature witicism to add here.
Back in the early '90s there was a newsletter called Gorilla Programmer with lots of advice and advocacy. Does anyone know what happened to it? Are there archives accessible online? I did a google search but couldn't find it.
Test 1 2 3 4
I agree with an underlying theme of Zorikin's post that the quality of your work experience is going to depend on the management chain above you. I'll rephrase some of it in my own words.
Your satisfaction many hinge on one aspect: are your expectations being realized? (Well, mostly realized?)
-Yes? probably satisfied
-No? probably not
I find this is a big factor in any relationship, be it work, social, or romantic
Your manager: Technical? or NON-technical? What do you expect?
If your manager is non-technical, how can he or she make any judgement about the technical quality of your work? How can they tell good design from bad? (Before products are shipped or deployed.) How can they tell good code from bad? A non-technical manager may be better at judging your teamwork, ethics, rudeness, promptness or other human qualities than a technical manager (who may have lost too many social skills.)
A technical manager will probably know good technical practices from bad. Good code from bad. Good design from bad. May reward low-bug-counts over being in the office for 12 hours starting at 8:00am or for dressing well. They may also be unwilling to take up necessary confrontation. They may put up with a lot of prima-donna nonsense from one highly-skilled worker at the expense of team moral.
What criteria do you expect to be more important in your career advancement? Go where those are important to the company.
---EXPECTATION SET #2 ---
What kind of job you are doing? I had a supervisor once who boiled it down nicely. The job is either "revenue centric" or "cost centric".
In a revenue centric job, the software/product/thing you are producing will be sold to someone else to make money. You can probably expect that budgets are more easily gained for these kinds of prodjects. You can expect that the "glamour" is greater for these kinds of projects. Companies are all about making money, even if only by selling logo t-shirts at the company store. Hours here can be long, especially when deadlines are nearing. A company's stock price can rise and fall on meeting the delivery schedule. Pressure can be intense. I've been told (and somewhat experienced) that these jobs can be more volatile. A new product may not do well on the market. A market may move out from under a previously successful product. The team may grow or shrink with real or perceived success.
In a cost-centric job, the software/product/thing will be used to contain costs and manage things. The product costs the company money and will never be sold or generate revenue from outside. Budgets are slimmer and harder to justify. "Glamour" is low or non-existant. Metrics will hugely important to you so you can justify your raises (you must imperically show that the improvement in the previous version of the software saved the company a lot of money.) There will be more meetings as "internal customers" (ie, other employees) have better access to you than "external customers" (ie, people who don't work here.) Development life cycles are often shorter, as the customer-base is more well-known and much trainable to work around bugs. Customer contact can be much stronger, so their satisfaction with, or dissapointment in your new software can be seen immediately. And they can take you to lunch or send a memo (good or bad) directly to your boss. Hours may tend to be much more 9-to-5. The revenue of the company may not be affected if the new warehouse database is 3 weeks later than planned. These jobs (I'm told) tend to be more stable. Managers know more about their long-term needs for workers, so if one kind of work is no longer needed, workers may be re-trained to do another kind of work.
I'm sure many things can be added to these lists. The big question is, which set of expectations looks better to you?
In our company the way to get ahead is:
Come in late, leave early. Sometime even have a nap at your desk.
Go play golf in the afternoon or head out the lake _Monday_ afternoon for a early start on the upcoming weekend.
Play computer games while at Client sites all day. I have seen it staff tell the client to F-off and then a week later get promoted.
Now here is the key - either look really good, drink lots (and by lots I mean $100 beer tab for the client a night while on site - no need to have the client around just drink by yourself), or general be really poor at your job. Doing all three is the key to moving up in our Company.
The easiest way to get ahead is to fill your car up with beer and drive out to the CEO's multi-million dollar cabin and spend the week-end drinking with him.
Skill and management know-how are of little value.
If you work hard and do a good job their is no reason to promote you... as who would do the work then?
If you are worthless in the job you are in maybe you will be good in the job they promote you to.
The typical Dilbert rules: The less you know the higher in the company you can go.
"After bending over backward, after being a loyal employee, this is the reward?"
No, the paycheck was the reward. Everything else should be considered a bonus.
Not that I think it's right mind you, but sometimes you have to come to terms with reality.
"Be what you is. Not what you is not. Those who do this. Is the happiest lot." Mr. Wizard from Tutor the Turtle
Here at First Tech, where I work, we where all curious as to WHY slashdot thinks we should leave our jobs? We like it here. Do you know something we don't?
As not-so-new(1.5y)comp-sci/seng grad who is stuck on the support/network tech path. You should feel lucky you got a job without looking AND now you came out with 1 year of commercial dev experience. have fun doing some real job-searching :)
Others:
-Recently vacated positions are not advertised nor refilled.
-More talk behind closed doors by management than usual.
-Consequently, management starts evading/ignoring their previous open-door policies.
-Management, seen talking in the hallways, stops talking when others pass.
-All equipment is re-inventoried.
-No more "free food" in the kitchen area after meetings.
-Any requests for vacations are begrudgingly given, and your contact info is required, just "in case."
-Visits from the lawyers become frequent.
From TFA:
.NET Ninjas.
I was to be part of a team of highly skilled, versatile,
NOW it makes sense! This is why they hate all the F/OSS Linux pirates, yarrrr!!!
When one of the owners states: "We are going to be a BILLION dollar company!!!" The fact was we just broke 1.5 million and I was actually in the process of laying people off. I really think he lost it.
It seems that a majority of companies have very specific experience requirements when it comes to IT folks, and not just technical requirements.
When I was looking for work last year, I was rejected for first-level interviews for reasons that varied from "we're looking for programmers with five years of experience in our specific line of business" to "while you appear to know the language and platform, we're looking for people with experience with our company-specific environment".
I ran into the former at least two instances that I can recall, both of them banking companies who wanted people with "check imaging" experience as well as a whole list of mainframe/database/distributed technologies. I suspect the latter was a case of a company fishing for former employees and not really looking for outside help.
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Why do I care about his opinion? I mean, okay write a blog on your experience, but don't try to pass off your advice on what "a lot of jobs" are like.
We only have one side of this story - it could well be another case of a kid coming out of college with a ton of arrogance, no respect for people who have a ton more experience than he, skills that didn't translate to his job, and a problem working with others. Perhaps there's a reason he was canned?
..."
Agreed, this guy may have simply have been clueless.
"Oftentimes, a non-technical manager, or an "old hand" who's edge is no longer sharp will be impressed enough to listen to your technical advice. If they were smart, they'd actually take it."
As someone who worked full time while in school I offer the following advice to recent grads. What we learned in class, and from textbooks, is often more theoretical than practical. Also, believe it or not there are sometimes rational reasons for not choosing the ideal technical solution. YMMV.
"This one needs no explanation
Actual it does, the original author's words are those of a clueless newbie. Classic. Hopefully he was just overstating things out of frustration.
"... If you tell management that it will take 8 days, and they turn around and tell you they think it will take six, you need to leave. Rushed work is almost always subpar."
Rushed work is not the only solution to the timeframe problem. For example you can drop features. It often turns out that some are not essential. Cutting your timeframes may be management's subtle way to tell you that you are consistently over-designing, gold-plating, or otherwise doing unnecessary work.
This also helps employee moral to a small extent - people are not all in the same ubiquitous cubicle, they are in a work space that they designed. It is also important to allow employees to move their desks around within their space, otherwise there is very little customisation that can happen.
By the way, I hope you charged your iPod to expenses.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Here's the URL in case you need a little help:
p ostID=112779058558034361&isPopup=true
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=16536839&
link, redux
Face it, people are stupid, and the internet is the place where they all meet.
.... The CEO of your company tosses chairs in anger and rants about "killing" people.
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
Apparently the answer to "when to leave your first tech job" is, in this gentleman's opinion, "before they lay you off". Which may be accurate, but it doesn't provide any insight for the rest of us.
My own advice could be summed up thusly:
1. If you HATE your job, leave and find another one. Nothing's worth being miserable for 1/2 to 3/4 of your waking hours every day.
2. If you think your job is just mostly OK, and you've been there for less than a year, stick it out for the full 12 months before you move on. Nobody's going to want to hire someone who has a history of job-hopping every six months, because they assume you'll do the same thing to them.
3. If you've been at your current company for more that five years, and the company has not shown you signs that they're trying hard to keep you there (fat raises, promotions, etc.), then it's likely time to move on.
4. If you can't imagine enjoying anything more than you enjoy your current job, stay with it!
umm... maybe I haven't had enough caffeine yet today, but...
$1,000,000 is less than $50 * 2^16.
at 1.05:1 odds, that's only about 1 in 100,000. I'm thinking the OP meant to imply that the odds are a whole lot worse than that, hmm?
mmm... yeah... You see, we're putting the cover sheets on all TPS reports now before they go out...
I think most Java IDEs (eg, IntelliJ) allow you to do something similar.
--- "We've always been at war with Eastasia."
Let's make the Nuclear control system Open Source! Just look at the advantages: anyone in the world can download it, and help out fixing bugs and making things better... unless of course you are from North Korea... or India... or Pakistan.... or.....
Oh, and I hope you don't mind having to re-compile your kernel once a week to make things work... most people won't even notice the flicker of the lights.......
"Never underestimate the power of the Slashdot!"
I work at Intel. Everyone here, including the President/CEO is in a cubicle.
...youve been released to the wild. And those things your trainer taught you in the safety and comfort of your artificial environment obviously didnt prepare you to survive in the natural environment.
See, Orca's in the wild arent shown exactly what they need to do in order to be rewarded - coached, coaxed and sweet-talked by some trainer who rewards them by feeding when they do as the trainer wishes. No, Orca's in the wild have to earn their rewards by observing how the world around them works and then making decisions based upon those observations, and by watching and learning from their pod-mates; many of whom rightfully view other Orcas as just so much more competition for food, and so arent all that forthcoming with their knowledge.
Unfortunately for you, your trainer for one reason or another didnt teach you all that much that you need to know in order to survive outside of your artificial tank. Perhaps when you were a younger Orca, and your training first started, you exhibited some signs of low self esteem and/or low achievment; a common tactic trainers use to combat this is to tell the young Orca's how smart they are, how great they are, how much better than the Orcas in the wild they are. There is always a risk in this type of tactic though in that sometimes the young Orca's dont see it for the psychological encouragement that it is, and instead they actually start to believe it...as if it were really possible for one or a group of Orcas to be objectively 'better' than other Orcas! Silly I know, but youth is often so.
Of course artificial achievement in an artificial environment often leads to young Orcas having artifical views of their own ability and worth. This isnt so much the fault of you young Orcas; youre young, ignorant, and up to this point have had no reason to know any better. Unfortunately, the way most artificial Orca tanks work, your trainers interest isnt best served by how well you survive in the wild after your training; no, most often your trainers interest lies in how well - and how readily - you jump through the hoops your trainer has configured for you. All the other trainers around all the other artificial tanks compete with each other to get the most young Orcas to jump through the most hoops the most willingly and the most ably. Often, to achieve this, the tank is made even more artificial by various means such as wave bafflers, soothing colors and soothing music. Again, the purpose of this isnt so much for the young Orcas benefit as it is to the trainers benefit; after all, if a young Orca gets distracted by a nasty wave when trying to jump through a hoop during a show, that just makes the Orcas trainer look bad.
But, as youve no doubt learned by now, there are no hoops in the natural environment; there are only rocks and reefs. And if you jump over a reef, there is no trainer there to hand you a fish. The natural world often works in reverse of the artifical tank you were trained in; you arent so much rewarded for success as you are not punished for not failing. When jumping over a reef, living to tell about it is your reward. Often, when young Orcas are released from their artificial tank and they finally find a pod that will accept them as a member, they complain that their new pod mates get upset at them for jumping over reefs; after all, jumping through hoops was how all the young Orcas in the artificial tank gained the respect of their trainers and the other young Orcas. What these young Orcas dont understand is that jumping over reefs, being so dangerous, is a dumb and useless trick that brings no extra fish into the pod and carries a high risk of the young Orca being wounded or killed, potentially causing all the other members of the pod to work that much harder to get fish while one of their members nurses his wounds, or dies.
Indeed, many pods are not willing to accept young Orcas who have just gotten out of the artifical tank; too many of these young Orcas need to be completely retrained by their new pod mates, causing less Orcas to be avail
For someone who's only been out there for a bit over a year, this guy has a pretty damn big chip on his shoulder. I saw the "problem" in the first two paragraphs. He went to work for some random company just because they called him at a time when he needed a job. Duh?
[_I_, on the other hand, have a huge-ass chip on my shoulder. I've had it for 15 years, I can't seem to get rid of it. I worked with some clunkers in the first couple years, and was stiffed for substantial income a couple times, but, you know what? It was my own damn fault. EVERYTHING wrong with them was recognizable from the get-go, and it wasn't whether they put people in cubicles or offices.]
-scott
I've just noticed that the typical poster here seems to lean more left than right.
Constitutionally Correct
IT is a dead field. We won't need any more entrants into computer science or IT for at least another 10 years.
... no cubes, only smart bosses, realistic schedules, and fair compensation. And the author thinks he's disillusioned NOW?!!
Research shows that 67% of those who use the term "research shows", are just making shit up.
This is a great speech for engineers.
Commencement address by Steve Jobs on June 12, 2005
Here's an interesting book about a little company called ID Software
Masters of Doom
Note to author, the glass is half full. You're less than two years into (possibly) a long career and already very jaded. Open your eyes and try to learn more about your situation instead of pointing fingers at why the world has wronged you...
Who modded this insightful? Clearly it deserves a funny for The Office reference. That show's almost as funny as Coupling.
...no relation to reality. The first mistake is that the article is about "your first job in IT". But then he goes on to list a bunch of perks that you will NEVER get in a first IT job unless you hit right smack dab in the middle of some kind of weird bubble like the DotCom bubble. Then he gripes about cubicles. Yeah. They suck ass. But, software engineers aren't the ONLY people in IT no matter what this guy thinks. Most IT folks are guys who do nothing but fix IT related problems all day. Windows support for the most part but a lot of hardware support as well (printers, monitors, desktops, etc...). They ARE IT guys just as much as a software engineer is. But, technicians like that are always going to be in cubicles because there is no "zone" to get into. It also depends on where they work in IT. If they work IT for a chain of drugstores, they aren't likely to be developing software AND fixing PCs and servers at the same time. Technicians work on the boxes and coders are usually a scarce or even non-existent resource in most IT departments. This is REALITY. The author is lucky he got the experience he did. And any improvements he encouters along his career path will have been enriched by that experience even though it ended negatively.
The problem with the author is that he believes he is entitled to more than he really is worth. He needs to get a few bumps and bruises along the way. From what I see the article is nothing more than a crybaby whine to mom about the little booboo. Don't get me wrong. I'm not siding with his former employer at all. Layoffs are horrible. I have my own concerns there as well, so I can relate to that. But, my first thought when reading this was... "Oh hell. How many self-proclaimed 'whiz-kids' (read: no experience or education in the IT world) out there are going to read this and think; 'hell yeah! I need a corner office and a massage three times a week, and if they don't give it to me, it's because they're assholes!'" He should have really been more accurate about his target: career programmers. Not just "IT guys".
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
I'm shedding big crocodile tears over this one. Schools don't often prepare you for the world of work. You first job will teach you that. It's called the school of hard knocks. Company loyalty doesn't count for shit anymore. Being loyal to your co-workers worthy of it is another matter. During the dot-com bubble days (when the old rules no longer applied) if you stayed at a tech job for more than three years you were seen as unmarketable. That was a load of crap then. If you love what you do and can make a living at it then stick to it, but you don't need my advice for that. If you have a crappy job, do the best you can to make it bearable until you can get a better job.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
Well, I haven't read the whole thread, but I'd be amazed if you're not being out and out roasted for a questionable sense of entitlement and for the authoritative tone you used to describe an industry you've really only just dipped your toes into. That said, people with a lot of varied experience will be posting, so hopefully they'll clear up some misconceptions that you and others might have.
/. in mind, but as you no doubt have already realized by this point in the thread, implying that people working in what must be the most common /. workspace by FAR aren't productive and should immediately start looking for a new job because their company can't succeed may not have been the best way to win over the masses. It at least cancels out the automatic karma boost you get for providing an excuse to complain about work. And maybe M$ does give all its developers offices--they're still putting out generally crappy products, and they're looking like they're going to get left in the dust on new tech by Google and Yahoo.
/. at work, because everyone could see. And if I had my own office--well, let's just say that when I saw the episode of Seinfeld where George Costanza started taking naps under his desk, I immediately started thinking about when I could get an office. Maybe you're a self-motivated, responsible worker, but most recent grads need more than a modicum of supervision to keep them on task.
I think a big misconception is the idea that a BS in anything should be hired by a company like Microsoft or Google as developer right out of college. People all over the world want that job, and if you think you deserve better pay and perquisites than a kid working his ass off in Bangalore--or anywhere--you'll have to prove it. What's more, there's always going to be a demand for nuts and bolts "in-house" guys. I'm not sure that there's ever going to be *any* demand for 20-somethings with vague ideas about "next generation user interfaces"--at least, not since 1999.
Also, you may not have written this article with
I think your only defense here is that you're *just* talking about developers, developers, developers. In finance, I've worked on open desks that make my current cube feel like a Fortress of Solitude. My supervisor worked on the same loud, open desk where everyone could see everyone else's work and hear their phone conversations, and he was pulling in well over seven figures GBP. An open floor is just better for communication, and that can be important in collaborative work. Besides that, who wants an office without a window? And don't try to tell me that everyone should have an office *with* a window--that would result in either a lot of giant offices or a lot of empty buildings.
The point is, if I were still on an open floor I'd *never* have the nerve to cruise
I guess my final point is that you seem to be doing to management exactly what you accuse them of doing to you. That is, saying that you know how to do their job better than they do, despite the fact that you aren't trained in it. Are there a lot of truly crappy managers out there? Of course. Is a degree in management a good predictor of managerial ability? Probably not. But everyone thinks that they can be a manager/executive, just like everybody thinks they can be a politician. The truth is that it's harder than it looks. Management makes decisions that affect a lot of different groups, and it's usually impossible to make decisions that each individual group agrees with wholeheartedly. While you may feel entitled to things like well-paid overtime, a private office, and de facto managerial control over your time and projects that you take an interest in, it's management's job to define your job in the best interests of the company.
In the end, I think you're right to think that you should have left earlier, and management was probably right to let you go. It wasn't a good fit. Whether you can find a good fit without changing your expectati
"Someone somewhere had to wear pants for the first time. The meek and indecisive do not change our world." -Montville
This topic is so appropriate for today.
I was cleaning out some old boxes and found a payslip from 1993. That was my 1st tech job and I quit it when the government announced that the Minimum wage would be raised to above what I was making then.
It brought into focus just how horribly underpaid I really was.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
To the author of the article:
Welcome to the real world.
Yes, that is the way it works in IT. And cubicles are a reality for most too. No evil in cubicles. The good thing in that first job experience is that you'll have better weapons for the next one, and the next, and the other one....
If you have to go to the doctor to have a sick day, that is a clear reason to run away. Run away now!
I have worked at some nasty places, but that is just too much.
Outside talent always looks better. You leave after two years, becoming outside talent to someother organization, with a sigificant raise.
And as for loyalty that concept died sometime in 1985 in West Allis Wisconsin Simular deaths occured throughout the Midwest and Rust Belt.
While you're with a company, work your ass off, recognizing that at any time you can be let go or you can quit. There is no such thing as job security.
You make your own security.
"...a case of literally not seeing the forest for the trees."
"Literally" is not a word to add emphasis, it has a specific meaning that is opposite of how you are using it. It conveys that you are not using a figure of speech and you intend the words to be taken at their most basic meaning. But you are using a figure of speech. It is actually a case of figureatively not seeing the forest for the trees.
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
If you walk in on day one and are introduced to a cubicle, think of the following:
- The company is cheap.
- They don't think too much of you.
- That dry box of a building you'll be working in is probably rented space they could fold up in a week.
Do what you will, but don't be silly enough not to look elsewhere.
FYI - I work for Moto as an Engineer. Everyone here is in cubes. The only ones that don't get cubes are the big execs. All engineers, S/W and H/W developers are all in cubes. Very few have offices. About 1%
I completely agree with this article... My first programming job was with me and 2 other programmers. They took me on to do all the stuff they could not get to so I could learn the business and how everything was put together in MVC with Beans and DAOs in java. However after only 6 months on the job, learning java again the way they wanted me to do it, I was laid off because of "Financial" reasons. Why I was were, the last month was full of little work and more and more sitting around being bored for hours at a time.
A few weeks before the lay off.... I scheduled an interview with another company... And I was laid off the day before the interview. They did not know I was going but they gave me 2 weeks severence and sent me on my way. I went into the interview the next morning and the VP of the company hired me on the spot.
Bonus a week of paid vacation and a week of double pay.
Now I do sit in a cubical... But thats alright I feel secure here. Theres 20 developers and I am not at the bottom. I started here as a mid career developer in ASP (learned the entire damn thing in 3 days) and I feel confident in my job.
I have to admit a cubical does suck but sometimes for large corporations cubicals is what you get... an office would be nice but hey I am not complaining. I am 23 years old making 4 times what I did in College working full time as a tech at Best Buy. (Best Buy paid only $11.50 an hour! WTF!)
Anyway, I agree. If a company stops giving you encouragement, work, and you feel dejected... look elsewhere! I did, and thank god I got a job the day after I was laid off making twice as much... Oh well.
-- Josh
"Whoopie! Man, that may have been a small one for Neil, but that's a long one for me!" - Pete Conrad
After reading through many of the posts, I find it alarming that people are focusing on external factors. Try looking inward. Are you truly happy doing the work you're doing?
I realize that many of the external factors contribute to how you feel about your job, but everyone has a different definition of happiness. Some people want more money, some want a quite workplace, some want free pens, some just want a place to go and earn a living that can pay their bills and allow them to not be bothered.
Get a grip on what YOU want. If some of the things in your company is not jiving with your personal needs, but the majority of it is, it may not be the right time to jump ship. Some people really enjoy working 14-16 hours a day because their job is the only time they get human interaction. If this makes you happy, then great! No one can tell you to leave your job (except your boss and perhaps security).
I'm also a big advocate of keeping your resume up to date and posted on job websites. Even though you are happy where you are, you need to keep your options open and your interview skills up to snuff.
The point is, look to what you want to do with your life and career, instead of looking for a list of reasons to leave a job.
VD
I worked at a place with shared desks, I didn't like it one bit... I like to have a little bit of space... it felt like I was in a high school science class.
MoM++ - A Classic Expanded - [Master of Magic 1.5]
http://mompp.sourceforge.net/
you aren't trying to get everyone a cube, just yourself.
If other people go ahead and work in cubes, that's not your concern.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
""" ;)
...
the cubicle doesn't seem all that bad when you don't actually have to be in it that often in order to do your job.
"""
Amen... I had a cubicle at one of the jobs I worked at, I was at it less than 20% of the time... the rest of the time, I was in the server room or out fixing problems somewhere.
I can honestly say I was never bothered one bit by having a cubicle... but... I did have one that was against the wall (at the end of the "cubicle hall" so to speak)... so I had more space and privacy than one of the ones in the middle (or especially those in a corner)
===
Of course, if I was programming and was at it all day, it might be another story, but I can't say for sure.
MoM++ - A Classic Expanded - [Master of Magic 1.5]
http://mompp.sourceforge.net/
underpaid is to tie it to the national average for your position.
taking into accunt benefits, etc...
For career reasons, don't go by what you 'feel' is fair, find out what the market demands. Yes, deep rooots and corporate stability have a vaue as well, but only you can come up with a number.
I mean, would you leave for a 10K increase? 100k increase?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
it were a business.
company loyalty died in the 80's. No company will keep you if they thought they could save a few thousand dollars with a replacement.
this is why unions can be a good thing for both the person and for the company, in the long term.
I ahve seen companies lay off people with 30 years of knowledge just to end up spend over a million dollars dealing with the sudden hole in the knowledge workforce. true story.
I ahve been in meeting where some managment persn wants to eleiminte people withuot considering what the do. In this case I was able to get them to relize that firing the only people who knew how there system ran was a bad thing. I also lost MY job over it. My manager wasn't to happy I went over his head.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Your post is one of my favourites in this discussion. I totally agree with you.
;-)
There's one thing I have to add though: Make sure you're not going too far with not attributing value to money.
I happen to be one of those who doesn't work for money. I just love my company, and what it does, and my colleagues; we're a well-organized team. I am well-paid, but I'd stay in the company even if I earned less.
Can't say the same about one of my previous jobs: I was then the same person [i.e. working for the sake of doing something for the community, not for the sake of earning money] and... Those fsckers still owe me a 4 months' salary! (Yeah, and there was no real contract, etc.). They simply abused my kindness. Watch out for such assxoles.
And speaking of offices - ours is a big 'open' place with no walls; and I am totally satisfied with it. There's plenty of space for everything, I can see all my colleagues and I'm up to date with everything that is going on in the company. And you know... we actually TALK to each other
The saddest poem
C) your paycheck third. Unless you actually own shares in the company, it is not your company, and you should care absolutely nothing about its success of failure - it is managements concern, not yours, and it is stupid to lose any sleep over it. To you, it is simply some entity that pays for some of your time for a while, and should not get a single second more than it paid for. Never, ever become attached or loyal to a company, for it has neither for you, and you will be kicked out; the question is just when.
The lesson here is to never sell your loyaly for money. Only give it to entities that both have earned it and are capable of returning it - that means real human beings, not companies or organizations of any kind (and yes, that does mean that you shouldn't be loyal to a nation; its citizens maybe, but never a nation itself).
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
The real way to tell how your company is doing: pay attention to facilities maintainance. Is the company repainting things? Is the carpet being regularly cleaned? Is resurfacing the parking lots? How does the landscaping look? Are all the lightbulbs working? It seems silly, but things like these are usually the first things to get cut when the company starts going south and the last thing to come back when it recovers. So if your company is keeping the building looking nice, you're probably doing pretty well. If your building looks pretty cruddy, you may want to get your resume polished up.
In other words, someone had an agenda to give nuclear power a reputation for being unreliable.
Nice, I especially like the one on the sales, marketing, engineer blame game. Fucking sales! If you promise things that engineering can't deliver on, without consulting them, then who's fault is it really? This condition is starting to show up where I work and sales won't even try and sell our stuff anymore (despite our very positive industry rep). I expect to be out of this job by the end of the year because of that "sign."
The one way I usually know that I'm in trouble is if some kind of shift happens at the company and I have no idea what the hell just happened. I once had some guy talk to our team for hours, trying to allay our fears over something, even bribing us with restaurant coupons. Afterwards, the team all talked amongst ourselves trying to figure out what happened. It turned out that our previous manager had just been fired and this guy was our new manager. Couldn't figure it out from what he said, he was too afraid to tell us. It wasn't very long thereafter that we were all layed off. He was a disaster.
Everytime since then, whenever I'm confused on the job, I know that something went wrong and that the storm is going to hit at any minute. I've seen this played out time and time again. Also beware any "strategic alliances" with other companies. This too is a sign that things are going south.
Especially if you're disillusioned after being a "loyal employee"
http://crimethinc.com/
Where I worked, they kept us in a tiny box next to the hazardous waste bin in the bathroom - all 26 of us. Our boss had Tourrettes, and would shoot off an old hunting rifle whenever he got "in a mood". Every day we'd get to work at 3am, punch ourselves in the face until closing, then clean the hazardous waste bin with our teeth.
An' yet who woulda thought, all these years later, we'd be in a large plush office drinking Chateau de Chassilier, ay Gessiah?
Last post!
Looks like he already left
Go ahead mod my karma bad, just remember what karma is fuckers!!!!!!!!!
The Nuclear Regulatory Agency has very strict rules about what technology can be put into nuclear plants - new technology for the Nuke industry is 10+ years old for the rest of the world.
These items are really job satisfaction and job quality items and could be important to leaving but they are not very important for when you might be cut loose. The very best indicator of that is finance. If it is a venture capital firm how is the financing. If it is an established supposedly money making firm "What are sales and profits". Watch these and you will know when to cut and run. Follow the money.
Many people will attack the author because of his inexperience. I will only support his point that software developers shouldn't accept a cubicle. If a company cannot afford to provide a proper working environment for each of their employees then they simply have too many employees. Is it any surprise that the same companies with vast farms of cubicles are forced to shed bodies at the merest dip in their stock price?
Facilities expenditures are dwarfed by salary. You don't have to remove many salaries to cover the difference in costs for offices vs. cubicles for software developers. By offering a good work environment, existing empolyees will produce better work and the company will be able to attract higher quality candidates. This results in a net increase in productivity despite reducing head counts.
In other words, cubicles are a false economy. Rather than saving money, business are forced use the savings from cubicles to hire more mediocre employees.
Okay, normally I don't get my dander up with slashdot posters, even trolls (not saying this is one example).
But here, I have to say it: I like cubicles! I've worked in four companies over the past ten years - one of 200-1800 people (got bigger with the buy out)... cubicles for 4 years, then a shared office with another developer, and a brief stint in the Faraday cage, one of 50 people for about 3 years... cubicles all the way, and one of 14 people.... only two at our sight, with a shared basement which was like semi-private office.
I LIKE CUBES! Cubes do require an ability to concentrate, to lock on your work solidly enough that the world around is not a disruption. That level of concentration is an asset to develop for many reasons. Cubes also have better airflow than a lot of offices. Private offices often are either too hot, too cold (vagarities of building air), too stuffy, or just become a place for people to tune out and surf the web.
Cubes don't allow you the total luxury to pooch your day away. They're a subtle 'keep you honest' environment. They also give you some social contact with your co-workers. You hear about lunch plans, you hear about interesting design discussions, you don't get left out of key impromptu design meetings, and you get some nice shared whiteboard space to noodle things around with other developers in your quad. It's like the bee hive!
Sometimes it can be distracting, depedning on office layout. A well laid out office doesn't suffer that issue. It can be noisy, but again, there are things you can do design wise to make for reasonably quiet cubes. Heck, if I could get rid of the HF noise from the four computers, three hubs, and 7-10 phones + TLS in my cube, that'd be far better than moving out of a cube!
A cube offers easy access to others, to be used judiciously. A cube offers an environment that has some social aspects. It also offers a situational awareness you lack in an office. It also removes some of the isolation sense people develop in an office.
It's shortcoming can be overcome by focus, by developing concentration, by some good headphones, and by good office planning.
I've worked in shared offices, which weren't much unlike cubes, except for the layout. I've worked in cubes. Both are about the same, AFAICS. Compared to a solitary office, unless it has a lovely rural or waterfront view, a walk out patio, and a built in bar, I'll take my Cuborg 9000 to a solitary office.
Now, for the record: Our little cube world has a pool table, a big MAME machine, a foozball table, an entire movie theater (formerly commercial!), a working bar with 4 taps, all the free pop and juice you want, an office sound system (not used during office hours normally) and an office staff that are very oriented towards pooling of knowledge, social networking, and on bringing up people with weaker skills to a higher standard. We also seem to have a lot of 'extra-curricular activities' like the recently past Oktoberfest pub crawl. YET, with all that said, I've been known to put in a few OT hours. I've probably logged more than 2500 OT hours in my career, at a guess. So I have spent more time in cubes than most... and I like them just fine.
LONG LIVE THE CUBE!
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
Point B. "[A manager that] Relies on, but disregards your technical advice:" I do not know the subtle points of this situation but it sounds like you stopped working on your tasks and told your manager afterwords that you could fix it over the weekend.
By this time, someone else has been scheduled to fix it and then he finds out that you haven't been working on your tasks and you openly criticize the company's decision.
It seems like you gave "sound technical advice" but "unsolicited advice."
http://www.quityourjobday.com/
Monday. The best time to quit your job is monday. Here are some of the ways that Quit Your Job Day suggests you quit:
The No Show
It's Monday morning and your alarm clock is buzzing, ringing, or playing a radio station. Your normal routine might have you slapping the snooze button a few times and tricking yourself out of bed with the promise of coffee. However this morning is Quit Your Job Day. This morning instead of hitting the snooze button, you unplug the clock. And the phone. And depending on how invasive your manager is, your door bell. This is by far the easiest way to quit your job, as it requires the absolute minimum of effort on your part. Sleep well into the afternoon knowing that you've terminated a job well done.
The Proper Termination
On company letterhead, briefly explain your intention to leave your position in two weeks time. Submit this to your boss with a hearty handshake and express your gratitude for the opportunity to make a difference doing whatever it was you did. If you're lucky you'll be immediately asked to gather your things and shown the door by two large men wearing blue shirts and baseball caps with matching security patches. Don't worry, they aren't cops. If you're unlucky you'll have to leave without your things and they will be shipped to you in a box a week later. This is currently the proper way people leave their employers. Sad really. It could be worse... they could make you work those last two weeks.
In Cube Vacation
This method requires a little bit of timing and a near intimate knowledge of your employer. It should not be attempted by amateurs. Starting one to five weeks before Quit Your Job Day, simply stop doing any meaningful work. Spend your time decorating your cube with pictures of vacation spots, turn your Internet radio to Hawaiian music, and sneak in a sun lamp. Sand on the floor would be a nice touch. When asked about the current state of any give project state that it's "being worked on" or "should be finished late next week." Either your boss will notice your strange behavior and you'll end up having to explain yourself or, if you are very lucky, the bureaucracy in your office is so deep that your shenanigans will go unnoticed. If confronted immediately apologize and say that you had hoped that your problems had not affected your work performance. Ask for the rest of the day off as a mental health day, and explain that you have another appointment with your doctor tomorrow. Never go back to work.
Reverse Firing
In the corporate world you often get reviewed for your performance. The meetings are uncomfortable affairs where your manager goes down a checklist of things that 'could use improvement'. On Quit Your Job Day, you'll be calling a review meeting of your own. Create a list of things the company needs improvement in. Watch your manager squirm as you point out bad health benefits, impenetrable paperwork, inhuman working environments and other OSHA related problems. At the end of your review look your manager straight in the eye and ask 'What would you do if you were me?', pause and then announce 'I'm afraid I'm going to have to let you go.'
Unionize.
One to two weeks before Quit Your Job Day covertly post flyers calling for unionization of your office. Demands should be extravagant, on the off chance that management actually gives you the raises, two hour paid lunches, and happy hour Fridays. More than likely your efforts to unionize will fail. At that point you should start posting Quit Your Job Day flyers, leaving your job with the satisfaction that you did your best to change things from the inside.
That you are aware of? That's, uh, not the greatest source is it?
They have several client apps and service-based things that are built in .Net. They have a .Net SDK.
Yeah, probably .NETs forte is gluing stuff together ala VB. They bought into web services in a big way, knowing they wouldn't have a chance without that ineroperability.
They don't write their historian or interfaces in .Net (at least they didn't a year ago). Everything on the control side is non-.Net,
Non-.Net? Soooo.... still .Nyet it seems to be still.
everything on the client side is moving to .Net.
Sure either that or a web interface .. That's cool.
How about Wonderware, another prevalent suite of process control and data tools. They are moving to .Net also, ad you can set your local plant up with this for under $100k (unlike PI which I think starts at $150k without client tools).
Vaporware doesn't count. Wow, I knew .NET hadn't really taken off, didn't realize things were that dire. Meanwhile Qt, Python, and Java are my tools of choice.
A company goes out of their way to contact you, an off schedule graduate, and tells you about their opportunity. I'm not saying that you're stupid, or that I've had any better luck. But their opportunity is very likely to be a losing propisition. They're trying to cut costs, and the biggest cost in software is you.
The signs of a company trying to manage your costs:
* Actively recruiting warm bodies from non-selective colleges
* Assembling a workforce of ninjas, where was designed from the ground up to be more efficient, and the workforce is not eight people or less.
* They're looking for ninjas, but only in the metro area. If you really need Ninjas, recruiting costs are irrelevant.
* Hiring a computer engineers to work on databases. Regional, since sometimes the difference
between computer engineering and comp sci is the science courses you take, and sometimes the overlap is minimal. But if you took like VLSI 2, you're probably in the minimal overlap case.
* The company is seeking fresh graduates to write software in a domain they have zero exposure to (nuclear power).
Again, I'm not saying that the author is stupid, just not motivated. Now that I reflect upon the location (Pittsburg) and field (nuclear engineering), I understand that it might be difficult to pick these features out. Bettis Atomic Laboratory sounds like a pretty rocksolid place to a student; they're badass defense contractors with the Navy's ear. They built the fucking nuclear carrier, and the nuclear sub. Clearly at sometime, somewhere, they were Smart and Knew How To Get Things Done (probably when they were owned by Westinghouse).
That doesn't mean its a great place to work. Your first clue should be the fucking maze of cubicles. Contrary to the author's opinion, cubicles don't destroy the office. They're just easier for the emergent behaviors of a company to demonstrate themselves with. If you're following your boss on what seems to be an arbitrary set of directions to your new cubicle, there might be something wrong.
Your second clue should be the project details; they flew me up there to discuss implementing a database for a carrier manual. Does that sound like something an awesome start-up would do? No. Why? Dumb fucking idea. You think the guy in charge of fixing shit wants to look up how to fix the bildge pump on a shitty ruggedized computer that barely fits within the holds of the ship? I don't, and the same guy, or possibly some other guy, is now responsible for that computer (and dozens more) when something inevitably fails. Shit, can't repair the boat till the boat computer's back online. That money's better spent on a pump that breaks down less, or is simpler to repair. In this manner, defense contracting sucks ass. Good ideas don't count unless a general somewhere agrees.
Personally, I'm hoping to skip the first-job-sucks step, but it just might be a requirement for getting that to that second-job-that-doesn't-suck.
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
So, when you start asking yourself if its time to leave. Its time to leave. I have stayed at 2 different jobs a year too long. You don't want to stay too long if you can help it.
Think Deeply.
My lazy ass coworkers hold half their meetings on speaker phone. In cubicles. Since we're scattered all over the world, a telecon makes sense, but every damn phone on this floor has a headset. And even when the louts use it, they talk louder than average, since there's always someone on the call you can barely hear. And we all know, talking louder makes THEM louder too, right?
Envy my 5 digit Slashdot User ID!
I've hired, fired, and watched succeed or fail at a new job, dozens (probably hundreds, actually) of people over the years so take my advice for what it's worth:
Leave your job when you have nothing to learn and no room to grow. For example, if you are a developer and you could make more money at another job, but if you stay 3 months at this one you'll make manager, you are better off staying. That way if you ever reach your ceiling and decide to move, you'll come in to the new place as a "bigger person." The opportunity to grow is worth more than the extra ten thousand in your paycheck.
In general, you should have a reason better than "More Money" for deciding to jump. When I ask you "Why do you want to switch" at an interview, you better have a good answer. Making more money is implicit, and of course we'll give it to you, but there should be something more to it which is at least remotely true (you can show interest in the new area, you want more responsibility and your current place does not offer it - and you better have a way to prove that it's not because you don't deserve it) etc., whatever.
Manage your risk - improving your lot at the old job beats the unknowns of the new one. If you do not feel like you're being recognized for what you do, ask yourself what the root of that is and how you can address it. Maybe presenting yourself to your management better is a solution to your problem - there's no guarantee that the new place will magically recognize how great you are if your sole means of communication is staring awkwardly into the floor when we ask you a question.
Anyway good luck with that, stick to those jobs and, especially if you work in my department, stop reading this site and get back to work.
Mock Tech Interviews & Free Resume Review
Slashdot articles for years, as it actually matters to nerds. Judging from the number and overall quality of the comments to this post, I think many other readers would agree.
I don't have much to contribute to this discussion -- I'm only a Eng-Phys grad whos been writing software for 20+ years (with a 3-week course in Fortran as my only formal training in CS) -- but I do have one question. What is an FTE developer?
He's a novice barely one year out of college, and worth very little in a real working environment. Somehow I think this in combination with his enormous ego and unrealistic sense of entitlement had something to do with his getting shit-canned. If he'd been working for me I doubt he'd have lasted a month, much less a year.
Hell, just take a look at how many posts he's made to his own article defending himself from his critics. His contempt of anyone with an opinion contrary to his own is enough to get him labeled as an egomaniacal asshole, and rightly so. The biggest mistake his management made was not firing him sooner, if only to improve office morale.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
I concur, having woked as a freelance contractor for Fortune 500 corporates down to small sub-ten-employee companies, I find the signs are there if you are open to them. My advice would be keep an eye out for _any_ changes, and if they aren't for the better, then ask why. If you don't get a straight answer, beware. I especially liked your first point; oddly enough I find this is the most obvious sign, probably because it is the one least hidden. Always, when a company was about to downsize, all stationery was nailed down, once even the recycled paper jotters!
At Google, just about everybody shares offices or cubicles, even the CEO, the presidents, the VPs -- exceptions are made in very special cases, such as the company's MD. Of course, not only there's leeway for people to define their spaces, it's positively encouraged, with competitions for the best and most original ideas.
From my POV, the only downside is that occasionally noise and conversation may make it hard to concentrate -- but I guess that's reason #1 why there's an unlimited supply of pretty decent Sennheuser earphones at the helpdesk... many people choose to use them to immerse themselves in music when needed (I used to love that back in my '20s, not so much now that I'm 50, but, I cope -- my favorite solution when the office is noisy is to take my Google-issued 15" Powerbook out to the wifi-bathed terraces or gardens... that also has the effect that once in a while I can smoke a cigarette while working, quite a plus to an addict like me;-)...
Alex