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Vista Beta 2 has Major Problems
WebHostingGuy writes "In a review by Gary Krackow from MSNBC who reviewed Vista Beta 2 over the last week he had very disappointing problems. "for me [it] was one of the worst operating system experiences that I've ever encountered." Built-in audio and wireless didn't work on his Levono laptop. It took four days to get the first installation."
"I tried to install on a laptop, and it didn't work."
;-)
Am I the only one who's sitting here and wondering, "What was this guy thinking?!" Laptops have so much custom hardware these days that it's a Bad Idea(TM) to attempt an OS installation from anything but restore CDs. This guy not only tried to install from new media, but he tried to install a cutting-edge operating system that isn't even out of beta!
Desktops are cheap these days. Would it kill him to keep one or two around for "kicking the tires" of new Operating Systems? His install experience probably would have been smoother, and we might have actually been able to hear some real complaints about Windows Vista.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
First off, you spelled the man's name wrong. It's Krakow, not Krackow.
... save yourself some time and just thoroughly read the Wikipedia article on it.
Secondly, as Mr. Krakow points out, it's a Beta. Do we all know the concept of that word? It's still being tested. Ironically, he loves the operating system but his main gripe seems to be ill-supported hardware drivers. Laptops are notorious for having odds n' ends hardware in them as everyone thinks their proprietary integrated devices are the best but oddly stop supporting them after that model is done selling.
Ever installed Linux in a laptop? I think you'll find that the scavenger hunt for drivers is similar to what Gary experienced. It's a bit of a pain in the ass but a big payout at the end. Give Vista the year or two and when it's released, I'm pretty certain companies will start updating their drivers to be "Vista ready." Is this Microsoft's fault? Possibly for not making certain the early Beta versions were universal and adaptive to different hardware but I don't know enough about drivers to speculate any further.
The points he makes about the actual Vista operating system sound optimistic. In fact, I didn't hear him complain at all about the functioning aspects and features.
All in all, this review was a waste of my time to read. The man spent all his time bitching about his laptop/driver problems and no time at all on analyzing what the operating system has to offer.
Perhaps the next time he reviews Lenovo Laptops and raves about them, he'll actually check if their drivers are supporting all operating systems. I don't know if you can depend on IBM to support their old laptops or expect the new makers of Lenovo to support the old hardware. Hell, even my Dell laptop has some obscure sound and wireless card models which are painful to find the right drivers for.
I don't want to spout conspiracies but I think that Mr. Krakow favors the "almighty Apple" over "evil Microsoft." You can read his other reviews which may be a bit biased. That last one is really pro-iTunes. I guess what I'm trying to say is that this man may be a tad biased
My work here is dung.
"... how did you like the play?"
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
Built-in audio and wireless didn't work on his Levono laptop.
That's because the audio is reserved for spying on the US military (and wireless to transmit the data back to China!)
There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
I thought all bugs were supposed to be worked out in alpha, and beta was for when you have your IPO and want to add new features.
Maybe if he had bought a Lenovo instead of a Levono from that guy on the street in the trenchcoat with shifty eyes, he wouldn't be having problems?
To sum it up, his first laptop didn't have updated Vista drivers, and the other two he tried both had hardware problems, so "obviously" Vista is crap. While I haven't installed Beta 2 yet, I did install the February CTP on a Dell Latitude D610 laptop, and it worked quite well, I had all my drivers, and apart from the somewhat pokey video performance, it worked great.
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. --Robert A. Heinlein
You know, if there's one thing I loathe more than intrusive
CONTINUED ON PAGE 2
I'm no Apple fanboi, but it does seem like Vista isn't really innovating anything that OS X hasn't had since at least 10.4, if not earlier. Feel free to disagree.
Somehow I find that hard to believe. Windows 9x made for some pretty hellish experiences.
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for the moment, it's far too early to judge just how bad the final user experience is going to be. They haven't really pefected all the mindfucks yet.
Luck favors the prepared, darling.
.. and the new Vista drivers went live on Windows Update yeterday.
I am not suprised it took him time until the drivers were available.
"I did not try to install the Vista Beta on the computer I'm using to write this. I'll bet you can figure out why."
Because you bombed three installations previously?
>Built-in audio and wireless didn't work on his Levono laptop.
Maybe he installed Linux by mistake?
So basically when Microsoft says "beta" they mean:
it sorta works. ok, there might be a few bugs. ok, so maybe it can't even install itself or use hardware.
When google says "beta" they mean:
it's more done than most web services that have been around since the early 90s will ever be, but the moniker "Beta" has a nice ring to it. Plus we like how elitist it is to have to be invited to a webmail service.
That it is Linux that is hard to install. Windows just works out of the box.
From TFA:
Beta 2 is a good looking operating system with a number of new features, which will be familiar to you if you've played with recent versions of Apple's OS X.
Or, in other words, features that were lifted/copied/etc. from OS X. It looks a lot like certain Linux desktops I've seen with all those sidebar applets... can't imagine what kinda hardware spec you'd really need to keep all that crap running. Can you even imagine what "sidebar" spyware will do to systems? Probably inescapable installs of pole dancers and casino crap... I rue the day!
stuff |
MSNBC is just being patriotic and helping the government bash Lenovo...
what i would love to see is sub-500 ($495.00?) dollar USD lenovo lappys with GNU/Linux pre-installed for sale in brick & morter computer stores & large dept. stores (Wal-Mart & etc) i bet that would cause ballmer to have a stroke and/or throw a truckload of chairs...
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
I'm shocked and dismayed. Windows software always works great in beta. Except for when Bill Gates is alone or presenting it in public.
Autonomous Retard -- Is your camp safe? UnsafeCamp.com
A review is supposed to tell us about the product, Right? He spends the entire article on how he's trying to install it on all these different laptops and the problems he has. As people have already said It's Beta, and It's a laptop. So he eventually gets it installed. Lets hear the review. He compares it to a Mac. Then he lists the features and then compares it to a new car and ends the article. Now maybe I blinked BUT WHERE WAS THE REVIEW? Why is this even posted on slashdot?
From reading TFA, it looks like he had the majority of problems because of his laptops. Hard drive dying, replace batt. Perhaps he should invest in new testing equipment. I thought the article was going to be about vista beta 2, not, why I couldn't get windows installed on my hardware. Yes, vista is supposed to support a ton of hardware, but I feel the article's title was misleading. Yes, I like linux and windows... No, I am not looking foward to Vista. 2000 and XP (and a wide range of linux) is fine for most workstations in the corp world.
The above comments are not guaranteed to make sense to anyone other than the author...
Dont worry, the final release wont be out soon... so plenty of time to make it work on any laptops.
No sig for now.
When Microsoft says "Beta", they really, really mean "Rough-Cut Alpha"...
That was the case with Windows 95- the first couple of betas weren't QUITE what I called beta quality software (though the developer partner alpha release was less unstable than the first couple of official betas- go figure...).
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Even though Gates is quoted in the NYTimes as saying Vista will ship "on-time" (relative to the last delay), on the same day CEO Ballmer is expecting more delays even to the current January 2007 date.
When the two cheifs can't even agree, at least in PUBLIC, it doesn't bode well for the rest of the project.
Now where did I put that OS X brochure?...
I only came here to do two things; kick some ass, and drink some beer...looks like we're almost out of beer.
And who puts a beta OS of ANYTHING on a LAPTOP to begin with? Especially one of the former THINKPAD variety, which require so many proprietary drivers you cant build up one of those things without hooking up an artery and mainlining device drivers through multiple reboots.
Boy, Microsoft sure has gotten great publicity by having the 'oil and water' comment posted on (their own ) MSNBC ! Perhaps the term "like Microsoft and Open-Source" would've looked better (worse?). By the way- isnt this experience pointing to a flaw in Vista? Isnt it supposed to be compatible with present day hardware? It IS windows after all, right?
In other news, the sky is blue, and water is wet.
"for me [it] was one of the worst operating system experiences that I've ever encountered."
Yay! For the first time Linux is more friendly than Windows! *ducks*
Anyone else find it ironic that MSNBC is the one running this story?
-tgpo
http://www.tgpo.info/
I don't want to start a holy war here, but what is the deal with you Vista Beta 2 fanatics? I've been sitting here at my freelance gig in front of an Vista Beta 2 (a Lenovo with 2GB of RAM) for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to copy a 17 Meg file from one folder on the hard drive to another folder. 20 minutes. At home, on my Pentium Pro 200 running XP, which by all standards should be a lot slower than this Vista Beta 2, the same operation would take about 2 minutes. If that.
In addition, during this file transfer, wireless networking will not work. And everything else has ground to a halt. Even built-in audio is straining to keep up as I type this.
I won't bore you with the laundry list of other problems that I've encountered while working on various Vista Beta 2 installations, but suffice it to say there have been many, not the least of which is I've never seen an Vista Beta 2 that has run faster than its XP counterpart, despite the Vista Beta 2's faster architecture. My 486/66 with 8 megs of ram runs faster than this 4.1 Ghz machine at times. From a productivity standpoint, I don't get how people can claim that the Vista Beta 2 is a superior OS.
Vista Beta 2 addicts, flame me if you'd like, but I'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use an Vista Beta 2 over other faster, cheaper, more stable systems.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
So it's like installing Linux? (Rimshot!)[/sarcasm]
OK, in all seriousness, I haven't had driver problems with Linux in some time (slapped a Suse 10 installation on a line of laptops and desktops, and didn't have to go looking for RPMs or figgling with drivers once), and this is a Beta, and "out of the shop" installations from OEM vendors will have everything in it.
It just makes you go "hm". Personally, I'm still in the "I'll wait 2 years before I upgrade the gaming machine to Vista" anyway (and that's if I don't get my PowerMac Intel first so I can dual boot should virtualization not be fast enough to play some games).
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
I bet Vista has CMIPCI drivers [as well as many others such as AC'97 codecs from Intel/AMD/Via/NF].
Maybe the Lenovo hardware just sucks ass. Much like us Linux/BSD users have hardware problems...
Maybe if Lenovo used standard chips for things as trivial as A SOUNDBLASTER 16, they wouldn't have these problems [yes, I miss the days where SBDSP was the "standard" for soundcards and everyone tried to clone them].
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
There was probably a conflict with the Chinese spying hardware built into the laptop.
One of the few things the monopolist os has always had going for it was wide & often almost exclusive hardware support.
If they lose that then they are in trouble because there are other alternatives nipping at there heels.
I remember being a strong proponent of IBM's OS/2 2.0 but when I saw how finicky it was about hardware & then trying a _beta_ of Windows 95 that installed on the same boxes without a hitch I knew it was the superior hardware support of Win95 that would win the day.
Who was expecting a Vista beta to work well? I mean, come on! It's both Windoze AND beta!
I propably will be modded down to hell by Microsoft PR guys here as troll or something, but I would like to point out that Beta or not, drivers usually should in this stage of version. For example, I run Ubuntu Dapper betas for three months and...emmm...it works :) Almost any hardware I have trown at it simply works, or works after checking out Wiki/several Synaptic sessions.
Anyway, as IT guy I would say that such driver problems gives OS bad name, so it is rather strange that Microsoft have major problems with it. Maybe it was too early to call it beta.
user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
Beta 2 is a good looking operating system with a number of new features, which will be familiar to you if you've played with recent versions of Apple's OS X.
Woops.
Now for the down and dirty:
A streamlined Start menu.
This has been needed for over 10 years.
Instant Search in every Explorer window.
This is a needed feature as well. Lets hope the UI is clean and it works well.
Search Pane lets you organize information by author, date, or type of document.
OK. Any multi-user OS has done this for over 30 years. Even Microsoft ones.
Windows Sidebar puts frequently used information and tasks right on the desktop. This feature will remind OS X users of that system's Dashboard feature.
OK. I don't like OS X's dashboard, nor do I care for this kind of thing either taking up screen space. Dashboard takes up 0 screen space because it is a user initiated overlay on the screen.
Its pretty much a fact based on years of computer use by millions of people that they _DON'T_ want large things taking up real estate on their screens. If they did, there would be an example of one. Even stock tickers and stuff like that are squirreled away at the bottom of the screen or something so that other stuff can be visible. The only exception is for a basic, single purpose computer where the interface for that single purpose takes up most or all of the real estate on the computer screen.
Network Explorer puts all network connections -- like printers, other computers, and devices - into one centralized location.
Organization is nice.
Sync Center helps users manage all their devices from one place.
Sounds good so long as it works as advertised.
Tablet PC functionality is integrated into most versions of Windows Vista.
OK. I guess thats an extra bonus if you have a tablet PC, eh?
Windows Media Center 11, also standard in Vista, includes live and recorded television, music, photos and videos.
OK. Again, only good if it works as advertised.
Improved Windows Media Player.
OK.
New power management features for mobile computers to optimize battery performance.
OK.
Windows Defender regularly scans and removes spyware and other unwanted software.
Huh? Spyware and unwanted software does not come with Macs, Suns, Linux, *BSD, etc.. This must be a unique feature of Windows. This is the first piece of innovation I have heard of from the company. I bet the others will be soon to follow.
Classic Windows games, as well as several new ones.
Hearts and solitaire, and more!
Vista might be the beginning of the end for Microsoft in the OS realm.
By far the WORST Window experience ever is Windows ME. What a waste of a release.
A beta this scruffy is not sounding that uplifting. Since Vista is due gold in October there aint that much time left to ease the quirks out. If you believe the developers at Microsoft its very time consuming to fix bugs in Windows Vista. I really hope Vista wont be as ridden with bugs as Windows XP.
Actually i dont think Microsoft will meet the October deadline if they dont let a lot of bugs slip through their fingers. Doing that would really be to shoot themselves in the foot. The last thing Microsoft needs right now is another Windows Millenium that people just ignore. If most people just hold out until the next version of windows instead it could do a serious blow to Microsofts income.
HTTP/1.1 400
This is hardly M$'s fault. There is a known problem with the drivers for the latest Chinese spy chips. For some reason they causes a conflict with the NSA ones.
Don't put off until tomorrow what you can leave until the day after.
I think this article is spot on the issues coming from an as imprecise term as "beta". On Google services, Beta often doesn't end up meaning anything more than "new" to end users because they're usually very solid, and can also remain in beta for years without anything even happening to them. In computer software, the same can sometimes apply, but others use "beta" with the older definition at least when developing large applications, like Microsoft. A "beta" that means "don't run this in anything like production systems".
He has these things to say when excluding his whining:
- I was given a pre-beta 2 release but will call it "Beta 2" in this article.
- I can't install this "Beta 2" on my Lenovo ThinkPad X60 laptop.
- I know beta software can be quirky.
- I couldn't run an automated upgrade from XP.
- I could run a clean install, but not all drivers are available yet, like that to my wireless card.
- A clean install will not let you keep old drivers.
- Install on Computer #2 failed because my clock battery was too old.
- Install on Computer #3 failed because my hard drive crashed early on.
- With Microsoft support help, I now have Vista running to some extent on my laptop.
Now, is this in any possible way a surprising turn of events for beta software with about a half a year left for bug fixing, polish, and catch-ups from driver developers? I really have to defend MS a bit when clueless people like him are given enough attention to appear on Slashdot.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
When I first read the headline, I parsed it as " Vista Beta has 2 Major Problems," and I thought, Gee, only two major problems? They're improving dramatically.
Poor guy. Somebody should send him a box or something to help clean out his desk. Not only a non-flattering article for his employer, but tediously from a limited perspective of "I couldn't get it to run on my Lenovo". At least MSNBC had the cajones to run the piece anyway. I wonder if they forced his deadline before the official Beta release and before the drivers were on Windows Update on purpose?
...In another thought, could it be that his Chinese Lenovo has a secret spy device that makes it not run Vista on purpose? Could it be part of some evil commie pinko plot? Send in Mike Hayden!
This sig is exempt from disclosure under the privacy Act of 1974.
The clock is ticking.
Nonetheless, did anyone think the highlights weren't that high?
* A streamlined Start menu.
* Instant Search in every Explorer window.
* Search Pane lets you organize information by author, date, or type of document.
* Windows Sidebar puts frequently used information and tasks right on the desktop. This feature will remind OS X users of that system's Dashboard feature.
* Network Explorer puts all network connections -- like printers, other computers, and devices - into one centralized location.
* Sync Center helps users manage all their devices from one place.
* Tablet PC functionality is integrated into most versions of Windows Vista.
* Windows Media Center 11, also standard in Vista, includes live and recorded television, music, photos and videos.
* Improved Windows Media Player.
* New power management features for mobile computers to optimize battery performance.
* Windows Defender regularly scans and removes spyware and other unwanted software.
* Classic Windows games, as well as several new ones.
None of these are compelling reasons to upgrade from XP. I see minor features and re-organizations. Power management? Hmmmm... not enough. Windows Defender? Not doing it for me. I thought there were a lot of other more compelling reasons?
there's linux joke in here somewhere... ;-)
but seriously, it does seem beta 2 is much more driver-challenged than the recent CTPs...
(MSNBC is a Microsoft - NBC joint venture.)
Somebody's out of a job.
Our Windows admin installed it on his 3 year old Dell desktop and we were quite surprised that it had all the drivers considering it's beta. The sound and the modem driver had to be downloaded by using Windows "search the internet for drivers", but it did find them and worked fine. It has to think before it does anything, but that was to be expected considering it's 3 years old. (It was top of the line when released though 1.7Ghz, 64MB video, 1GB ram) He said he was going to strip off the special effects and see how it does. (Haven't seen it since he did it so I can't comment on how it is afterwards) It defaulted to an incrediably small resulotion though. It was almost unreadable even though his laptop has a nice and large wide screen display. I like the taskbar. I prefer small unobtrusive taskbars. Which is a pain for me since I prefer KDE's feel and UI, but prefer Gnome's look. (small taskbar... I can't stand hidden taskbars though so forget it!)
Sensational headlines attract attention, eh? Looks like FUD to me. I've had difficult installs on occasion with both of the operations systems I use on a regular basis. I don't equate difficulty installing with how the OS behaves in day-to-day use. And that's especially true of beta software. The article focused way to much on the install issues and not nearly enough on the OS.
Here's what I want to know:
Is the driver architechture imcompatible with existing Windows drivers? Am I going to have to wait until device manufacturers write new drivers? That would be useful information.
-=Robo=-
There was a time when movies had plots. So you knew who's ass it was, and why it was farting.
-Not Sure
"for me [it] was one of the worst operating system experiences that I've ever encountered."
Which means you are a young pup. Coherrent on a 286? How about OS/2 on a Tandy 1000? DSM on an 11/44? Windows 1 (with the coolest font management that only took a week to get stuff working)? You do remember when the line printer would get stuck on the feeder and it would wear a line of text right through the paper, don't you?
Man, back in my day
Am I the only one who's sitting here and wondering, "What was this guy thinking?!" Laptops have so much custom hardware these days that it's a Bad Idea(TM) to attempt an OS installation from anything but restore CDs. This guy not only tried to install from new media, but he tried to install a cutting-edge operating system that isn't even out of beta!
Funny this should come up at this time.
I was able to get a -great- deal on a ThinkPad just last week (R50e - $600). I took a Knoppix CD with me to the store, and it appeared to boot fine, so I went ahead and bought it.
Brought it home, burned a Debian Testing Netinstall CD on my desktop, popped it into the laptop and booted.
I had just the opposite experience as this guy had with Vista.
The only issue I had in the whole process was that I had to use the wired NIC instead of the wireless for the actual network installation. But once the install completed (about an hour), I had a -very- functional system.
A quick Google and a couple of tweaks later, I had a -completely- functional system.
It was definitely one of the easiest OS install experiences I have had since the days of DOS!
If a bunch of dirty hippies can make it this easy for free, why can't a corporation with the resources of MS do it for their proprietary OS?
A house divided against itself cannot stand.
Ever installed Linux in a laptop? I think you'll find that the scavenger hunt for drivers is similar to what Gary experienced.
:)
Yes... yes I have. Quite a few times actually. And you know what? Over the years the install process has gotten easier and easier. On my current laptop I am now running Ubuntu Dapper which is still Beta. Everything just works out of the box, including built-in wireless with WPA. My last laptop ran Fedora then Gentoo, and once again everything just worked.
I do not know of these mythical driver problems you speak of. I think you will find installing Windows these days is more of a pain in the ass than installing Linux. I see our desktop/network guys at work re-install windows from time to time, and I always chuckle about the nastiness of a windows install... and thats with *non* Beta versions. I showed one of the guys a Ubuntu install, and he just about pee'd his pants at how easy it was!
I'm using Vista Beta 2 right now and I think it's great. You can't really expect the betas to have ALL the drivers working flawlessly.
I don't see the problem. This is how most columnists review Linux. Obviously this just isn't the year of Desktop vista.
And this post will get modded troll, sadly. However it's 100% true. I see a lot of apologists here that are the same ones knocking Linux based on the same style reviews every chance they get.
If an officer ever threatens to taze you, say you have a pacemaker.
...that mainstream "tech news" is usually done by morons. Lesson #1 that a REAL tech learns is that you never, NEVER, N E V E R install the "latest and greatest" or beta software on the latest hardware and expect it to work. Only an idiot would do that. Of course I've met a LOT of idiots who profess to being "Windows experts". No I'm not slamming all Windows users. I'm slamming the variety of Windows user who only wants the latest toys regardless of if he or she actually needs them. Living on the bleeding edge and expecting no problems is the true sign of idiocy. If you want bleeding edge, then expect to have problems. That's the way a REAL tech does it.
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
this is an age-old troll...can't believe people still fall for it.
Why, he sounds so surprised!?
Exercise caution when modding this message up: the author acts like a jerk when his karma is excellent.
However, Lenovo laptops have very popular and generic hardware and there's nothing exotic about them.
If an officer ever threatens to taze you, say you have a pacemaker.
This is the first article about Vista I've seen that actually describes what is new; how it is different than XP.
I'm underwhelmed. From TFA:
A streamlined Start menu.
Streamlined how? They made it more like Win98?
Instant Search in every Explorer window.
So, I have to click once instead of twice to search? YAWN! TFA doesn't say whether the search itself is any better (but XP's search is so bad it would have to be)
Search Pane lets you organize information by author, date, or type of document.
If I'm getting so many results that I have to organize them, then the search still sucks. Desktop search is inherently different from internet search; on the internet, I'm looking for new information. In a desktop search, I'm looking for a particular document. I don't want to search through the results of my search to find the one document I'm looking for. If I tell it to look for "the one" I don't want every instance of every document with "the" OR "one" imbedded in the name, I want "THE ONE".
Windows Sidebar puts frequently used information and tasks right on the desktop. This feature will remind OS X users of that system's Dashboard feature.
Automatically whether I want it to or not, unlike 98's "send to" menu item that would send a shortcut to the desktop in 3 clicks? And, er, yeah I know it was an MSnbc article, but I don't think many Mac users are going to be switching to Vista.
Network Explorer puts all network connections -- like printers, other computers, and devices - into one centralized location.
As suspected, there will be a learning curve. MS can't design any software without changing where you have to look for stuff. How about putting network printers with local printers, like it is now? How is this an improvement?
Sync Center helps users manage all their devices from one place.
I'm not sure what this means, or if it's a good thing.
Tablet PC functionality is integrated into most versions of Windows Vista.
So... what?
Windows Media Center 11, also standard in Vista, includes live and recorded television, music, photos and videos.
I can get this now, with any OS, so long as I have a broadband connection. I really don't need fifteen gigs of sample files I'll never watch. When I watch a movie, it's not some random crap, I choose what to watch.
Improved Windows Media Player.
I use Winamp. WiMP phones home by default (or is one of the improvements that it doesn't?); WMA's DRM allows you to make a music file that will actually play yet is a virus. Rename it to MP3 and WiMP is teh only player that will open it. Did they fix this incredibly bad design flaw? And what could they possibly have done to make it as good as Winamp?
New power management features for mobile computers to optimize battery performance.
They fixed that XP bug. Nice. A hundred fifty bucks for a bug fix.
Windows Defender regularly scans and removes spyware and other unwanted software.
I already have spybot and three others. How is this an improvement? Wouldn't it have been better to write Vista to make it harder to catch spyware, than to bolt on an inferior product to catch this malware after the fact?
Classic Windows games, as well as several new ones.
Soo... I should upgrade to Vista so I can still play Solitaire? Huh?
I wonder why TFA doesn't say anything about the built in DRM I read about last year? Is it still in there?
I think I'll pass, at least until that program I can't live without and only runs on Vista is released. If any of you can give me some valid reasons to upgrade, I'm listening.
I tried to beta test software and I found bugs in it, and this was Microsoft software!!! Can you believe it??? I bet this would make a great news story.
Am I the only one bothered by the summary? Where is the editor?! In the summary:
/. crowd is pretty anti-MS, but purposly substituting "installing Vista beta 2" with "it" to make the OS look worse is simply unacceptable. it's reasons like this that I've stopped reading /. and gone to digg and blogs.
"In a review by Gary Krackow from MSNBC who reviewed Vista Beta 2 over the last week he had very disappointing problems. "for me [it] was one of the worst operating system experiences that I've ever encountered."
But he didn't make that comment about Vista and it's actual use, he made the comment about INSTALLING. Here is the ACTUAL quote:
"Installing Vista Beta 2, for me was one of the worst operating system experiences that I've ever encountered."
And granted, I've had problems installing every version of Vista/Longhorn so far...
I understand the
First Problem was...it's late. :-)
Second Preblem...it couldn't find a Chinese ISP to authorize it's network card
What?
"Alpha" - we made changes to XP codebase, now doggone Vista won't compile "Beta" - we finally got it to compile, let's ship 'er out and test the waters "Final" - it's mostly feature-complete, ready for quality testing by paying customers "Service Pack 1" - final release candidate (boy did we fool them!), now let's think about security "Service Pack 2" - done thinking, done testing, the final project woohoo! (Ballmer pats chair on back)
Microsoft hasnt had a patch from the chinese government that allows their hidden spying equipment to run stable under Vista yet it seems
That Windows sidebar looks familiar. Where have I seen that before?
That's pretty good stuff. I wonder how well they'll play together? Any guesses?
- Kevin
The less confident you are, the more serious you have to act.
I see people complaining that he shouldn't have done this on a laptop - the hardware is too weird on laptops for the test to be meaningful. Maybe so, but my first Linux install was on a laptop (Fedora on a Toshiba, which I'm using to write this post). I haven't owned a desktop in years, and don't care about them. Having him test Vista on a laptop actually tells me something - that it's probably easier to install Linux from scratch than it is to install Windows from scratch.
Of course, this isn't really news. The reality is that Windows has always been harder to install from scratch than most other OSes, but this doesn't matter to Microsoft because most people will get Vista by purchasing a new computer. (This applies to both desktops and laptops, but it's worse on laptops.)
It seems to me that MS is falling further and further behind. It's been a while since Linux surpassed Windows in throughput. It's been even longer since it surpassed it in stability. I know it's beta, but it's been a while since any Linux beta was as bad as this.
Despite their claims to have learnt their lesson they are still too focused on featureitus, and they are not even that good at that, as a lot of Vista is still catching up to OS-X.
Still, there are some neat things in Vista. MS isn't done for yet. But the reason for MS's existence seems less compelling year by year.
Most people don't take into account that there have been some very serious rewrites in Vista since Beta1. A new team of developers was brought in. OpenGL is not wrapped inside of DirectX 10. I have played with Beta2 on the demo machine here at the Univ. They actually just installed it last week. It's installed on a cheap Gateway E-series. I got to watch the install and interesting enough, it worked perfectly after the very long install. I'm a big FreeBSD fan and I use Gentoo on my laptops, but this is the first Windows OS that has impressed me. I became interested after seeing what it could do at the Microsoft E3 press conf. Anyone who says Vista is bad has not given it the chance or has some very odd hardware.
Windows is notoriously bad for driver support
Driver support is arguably what windows does best (even if its not windows doing it). Driver support is probably the single biggest problem Linux faces in its quest to become mainstream, IMHO.
I am a Mac user. I can't stand Microsoft and I think Vista is a joke, in features as well as the entire development cycle. Having said that, this review, well, isn't. Running a pre-release version on any system is risky, let alone on a highly integrated laptop. This alone lowers his credibility, especially since he doesn't mention this at all. I wonder if he even realizes it. And what ruins the "article" further is that he goes on to make it sound as if Vista had something to do with a hard drive crash. This is nothing more than him getting out frustration, and NOTHING close to a well thought out review. It's even written poorly. But, that's kinda what I've been taught to expect from MSNBC.
I am making a note to ignore this guy's opinions for the future.
One would think the original poster would have not cut and pasted choice words out of the article.
What was really said was "Installing Vista Beta 2, for me was one of the worst operating system experiences that I've ever encountered."
That is a hell of a lot different than: "for me [it] was one of the worst operating system experiences that I've ever encountered."
I mean I know this is the largest supposedly anti-Micrsoft web site on the planet (which for some reason almost 80% of the users are using IE but who am I to judge right?). But that headline quote is blatantly NOT what was said in the article.
This is what passes for news? Someone should clue this retard in that it is a g*dd*mn beta product. As in, it hasn't been released yet. F*cking idiot!
We've tried nothin' and we're all out of ideas. - Ned's Mom
Am I the only one who thinks it's wrong for the submitter to change this guy's words around to make it seem like his entire experience was bad?
"for me [it] was one of the worst operating system experiences that I've ever encountered."
"[it]" being "Installing Vista Beta 2", not his overall experience.
mmm, seems to me Windows is catching up on Linux! Audio problems, wifi problems, laptop issues? Linux beware!!!!!
I think, therefore I am...I think.
Has anyone seen his video interviews on MSNBC? His really doesn't know what he is doing. He constantly mixes up terminology (i.e. megabyte and gigabyte, etc... pathetic, et al.) and writes things that don't always make logical sense. No one should quote this guy or use him as any kind of defacto judge for proper computer knowledge. It is very sad indeed that he is even quoted on Slashdot... have we lowered our standards? Oh wait... don't answer that.
For crying out loud, it's a Microsoft product. What did you expect?
Got the cheapo Winbook A210 at Microcenter, saved $250 by buying a mini-pci wireless card and antenna, slapped on an Ubuntu testing daily cd and my only issue was it tried to use my wired connection, rather than my wireless connection during the install.
After my first boot, I plugged in my WEP key, and I was off to the races. Seriously, that's all I had to configure - everything other piece of hardware worked right out of the box - off a 750MB CD no less. Vista comes on a DVD, with enough room for every driver under the sun and it couldn't detect my wireless or integrated graphics or my wired NIC.
Wu-Tang Name: Half-Cut Skeleton Get your own Wu-Na
Maybe he should install Linux instead. I'm sure the Audio drivers and WiFi drivers will work perfectly out of the box. So because they don't, Linux blows! That's some faulty logic if I ever heard it.
Nothing to see here, move along.
I've been a software developer for 20 years, and for at least the first 10, perhaps the first 15, we used the following definitions:
alpha release: The developers believe the code is 100% complete and working and ready to ship. Alpha-level testing is done internally by paid staff, and never before development is complete.
beta release: After all bugs found during internal testing have been fixed, a beta release is made for testing by persons outside of the company.
Microsoft has publically admitted that substantial portions of Vista will be completely re-written before the release. As a result, the current release should be called neither an alpha or a beta release.
Now, if I was a Microsoft-basher, I'd make the joke (oh, wait.. it's not joke) that any version of Windows is ready for release when it's successor is ready for sale.
Windows 95 was usable when Windows 98 came on the market.
Windows 98 is a slight exception, become usable with the "SE" release.
Windows 2000 became usable when Windows XP was released.
Windows XP became usable after SP2, about the time Windows 2003 was released.
My prediction is that if Vista is released in 2007, it will be usable about 2009.
-p.
When WebHostingGuy posted this article on Slashdot he quoted the author as saying: "...for me [it] was one of the worst operating system experiences that I've ever encountered." That's misleading. The author of the article is NOT saying that using Vista was one of the worst operating system experiences he's ever encountered; INSTALLING it was:
"The stuff that works on Vista seems to work well. But getting the Beta on to a computer was another matter. Installing Vista Beta 2, for me was one of the worst operating system experiences that I've ever encountered."
In fact, the Author seemed to like the OS once he had it installed:
"Beta 2 is a good looking operating system with a number of new features, which will be familiar to you if you've played with recent versions of Apple's OS X. And Vista seems to be a competent operating system when it's running."
When you quote someone, you shouldn't change the meaning of what they said.
What are you doing now, you lazy drunken obscene unsayable son of an unnameable gipsy obscenity?
errr... that's Lenovo , not "Levono" as spelled in the headline.
New mod option wanted: -1 DrunkenRambling
What the writeup said: "for me [it] was one of the worst operating system experiences that I've ever encountered."
What the article said: "Installing Vista Beta 2, for me was one of the worst operating system experiences that I've ever encountered."
Nice FUD, guys.
hoser
P.S. I'm posting this from my MacBook Pro, so it ain't like I'm a Windows fanboy or anything. (Or, in other words, I'm not Paul Thurrott)
hoser: Slashdot reader since 1987.
Not sure if 95% is the exatly right number but it's close. Almost nobody will buy Windows Vista at retail. They'll get it when they buy a new PC. In that case the OEM will make sure the system has the right drivers etc. It's pretty naive to think that you'd be able to install Vista on any old laptop today and have everything work right. It is, by the way, still not final code. That said, I intalled Beta 2 on a Toshiba Portege last night and everything went fine except that initially the built-in wireless didn't work right. The Toshiba has a pretty lame video card so it doesn't support Aero "Glass" but overall the performance was what I'd call passable. That's on a 512 MB system. If I get a new system next year after Vista ships I'll definatel get a gig of ram.
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2006/apr0 6/04-17LenovoPR.mspx
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
As much as I don't care how this operating system does, I have to say; who cares if it had problems? It's a damn BETA of a system that was completely overhauled. It's not like a little application that might have some mis-typed words. This is a whole operating system. BETA testing is part of the process. Deal with it.
[%] Cingular Ringtones
They prefer something they can use on an airplane but I tend to prefer huge ~40lb gaming systems that would need it's own ticket to get on the plane. Even with laptops all I do is lug it from one docking station to the next.
Not everyone does most of their work from an airplane.
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
Ya, it's a weird fact but just when some OS is getting pretty stable and a lot of the old bugs get fixed, a new one come out and we get to start the process all over again. ALL the old bugs never do get fixed,plus security updates slow down dramatically, so as a result no matter which you run (new for features or old for functionality and stability), you get buggy plus insecure in either one.
We also get the amazing morphing functionality aspect, such and such and this and that all working fine in old version, new version half of them are now busted again.
Perhaps the entire process is flawed, maybe a new sort of model is needed for software advances. Remember the article a short time ago, the discussion about a possible kernel dev freeze to fix bugs? I'd like to see that with most software in general, just a periodic total freeze on new features and bug fixes and security fixes only for an extended time period. Maybe every other year or something like that for a total audit period. I *would* say that six month release cycles in distros have grown annoying, I think that is just way too fast and has lead to the state of perpetual beta ware.
If that's all it takes to write an article on MSNBC ... then I could be a pro at it! Where was the content?
I didn't know Dvorak got a side gig;)
So this guy tries to install on 3 laptops:
1. He clobbered his driver partition during a clean install and then complained how he couldn't find drivers for all his hardware for the beta OS.
2. 2nd Laptop had hardware failure.
3. 3rd Laptop had hardware failure.
His Conclusion:
Vista is not ready.
My Conclusion:
Guy was not ready to do the review( a hard disk for laptop is $100. when mine failed last week I bought another one and had it installed in 25 min.) I also do not trust him with saying drivers were unavailable. He has not proven himself competent as a computer guy. Seems like another writer ignorant in the ways of computerdom.
It's not the size of your stack that matters, it's how you push and pop
From TFA:
Beta 2 is a good looking operating system with a number of new features, which will be familiar to you if you've played with recent versions of Apple's OS X. And Vista seems to be a competent operating system when it's running.
I've been using what was described to me as a "very near Beta 2."
Is that by chance build 5342? That's not Beta 2. I thought this was about Beta 2.....
after four hours of churning away the laptop shut down and wouldn't reboot.
I'll give him that one. Vista takes several hours to install even on GOOD hardware, and the "wouldn't reboot" comment creates the possbility of a problem. That's the last statement that even makes sense.
I tried again on the ThinkPad as a clean install, which meant wiping out everything on the hard drive and starting from scratch.
Last I checked, there is no "upgrade" option in the beta, so how else would you have installed it?
That took about an hour to complete. It also removed every device driver that I needed to run the laptop.
Clicking "remove partition" in the Vista installer took an hour? My guess is you found some elaborate way to remove the OS, that may not have been successful. The comment about removing device drivers? Not sure how to parse that one. Last I checked, drivers are part of the OS, so removing the OS removes the drivers. This is normal behavior. Have you done this before?
Downloading the drivers from the Lenovo Web site took a long time
Lenovo has Vista drivers?
Unfortunately, not everything I downloaded is Vista-ready so rebooting had to occur after every 10 minutes of computer use.
That's what I thought. How did you install a driver that forced you to reboot every 10 minutes?
Also, the built-in audio and wireless connectivity devices don't work. I do have an 802.11b/g PC card that was recognized by the system.
What didn't work about it? I had a problem with the audio drivers on my bleeding edge Gateway M460, but that chipset is well documented in the Vista beta forums as being problematic. "Built in wireless" is probably an IPW-2200, flawless under Vista on my M460. Not sure what problem you had there.
I did try installing Vista on two other laptops. One, it turns out, needs a new Real Time Clock battery (a trip to the manufacturer is needed) and another which had a massive hard drive failure at the beginning of the installation process.
Well, that clinches it. Now not only is Vista the worst experience ever, it DETECTS BAD HARDWARE AND REFUSES TO INSTALL!! Are you LISTENING people????? Seriously, have you ever done this sort of thing before?
I did not try to install the Vista Beta on the computer I'm using to write this. I'll bet you can figure out why.
Either you're too dumb to figure it out, or that it would ruin your perfectly crafted article on why Vista sucks. Please advise.
After a weekend of frustration -- more than 30 hours of my time -- and some help from Microsoft -- I have Vista almost Beta 2 running (somewhat) on a laptop.
You got MS support on a pre-beta release?
I will admit that Vista has some issues. I wouldn't chalk those issues up to anything outside of a normal "beta" process. The worst I've had is hardware not being detected correctly. Since manufacturers aren't releasing Vista drivers, it's kind of expected that beta OS + bleeding edge hardware means that you may have to wait for good hardware support. In the case of my M460, I waited for the next build and what do you know, my driver was fixed. What I've found is that if you install the latest build, you need to run automatic updates. Microsoft is packaging drivers in thsoe updates, and for once Windows Update is actually making things run better. Since you mentioned that you have a somewhat working install, I would suggest running Windows Update for awhile. You may see those issues slowly disappear.
In the meantime, before writing a tech article, please have it proofread by someone other than a 3rd grader.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
I sincerely doubt that any cheap desktop is capable of meeting the Vista minimum requirements. Remember that Vista still isn't scheduled for another six months, and by then Core 2 and (hopefully) AMD K8L, plus the next generation of GPU's will have arrived. These might manage Vista.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
This guy better not ever try Linux!
Its only beta 2, I installed it fine yesterday, I'm using it as my main OS now. Its perfectly fine and I'm running on a laptop. Hes not even using the real beta 2 that was sent out yesterday. Downloading drivers from IBM is easy, its one of the best sites for download drivers for laptops from. He just sounds like someone who expects everything now, and doesn't seem capable of having a computer.
Yea, it's a bad review. It's sounds more like he's just not competent to use Beta level products. A lot of people aren't. Most Beta software has tons of interesting problems.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
^Totally, I really see no reason to look forward to Vista that much. Anyway, I'll hopefully be moving to Linux soon, so Vista isn't really important for me. Guess I shouldn't judge it till I've seen and used it, though.
I stopped giving his articles any credit after reading a 2 page review of all the watches he has ever owned.
They still haven't fixed my favorite "feature", the 30 second network timeout when using windows networking. I avoid "My Network Places" like the plague, because anytime you click on it you've lost 30 seconds of your life while Windows sits there and catches packets. Why can I download something at 1Mbs and still play a game, but Windows can't packet-capture and move the mouse at the same time?
I would pay to upgrade if they fixed this, but it seems they never will...
Vista isn't really innovating anything that OS X hasn't had since at least 10.4
Yeah, I guess you are right.
Other the a nice UI, the ability to run windows application, and the whole 90+ % market share, Vista has nothing to offer.
After all, if you installed it over your wireless, other people might be able to steal your super-secret decoder ring software keys and mirror it to their laptops too!
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Its funny how I see lots of "I had no problem installing linux _distro_ on a laptop I just bought" but no "so I sent $50 bucks to _distro_". I'm a big fan of not paying anything for something until it works instead of fronting out big cash for something that ends up being crap(M$).
Does anyone think Vista is going to be a Windows software release that is not in a constant state of beta requiring cash up front.
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
How about knowing what happens when you format a drive before you get a Beta?
Does no one find it ironic that a pseudo-employee of microsoft (this guy works for MSNBC, a partnership involving MS) is bashing a Microsoft product? I'm an MS user and all, but it certainly doesn't bode well for Vista to get bad press from their own side of the OS X v. Vista fray.
Clearly you haven't run the beta.
Vista is not going to be twice as stressful as xp.
If you can run xp well you can run vista well the only extra workload seems to be with the aero stuff (which needs a compliant graphics card to do the trasparencys and such).
PC's have been far over powered for all but games for some years now I'm not sure what you think vista would be doing to need atleast a dual core.
I installed Vista 5384 last night on a Gateway m675 notebook, and so far my experience is pretty good. They seemed to get to speed up a little since 5308. And its true, some things are a little buggy, but MUCH MUCH better than the last build I tried. My overall impression is happy with it, I'll try and use it. THe only problems I have yet to fix are the sound and touchpad. I hate the tap to click. Sound drivers were updated from Microsoft after installation and the driver appears to be working, just no sound coming out of it.
At least the drivers for the bug worked!
Someone had to say it...
I like how the operating system is blamed... instead of the laptop or laptop manufacturer.
Way to go!
"for me [it] was one of the worst operating system experiences that I've ever encountered."
:)
Interesting choice of text for the link to the article. Is anyone trying to start a Google bomb?
The Hardware Support List. Vista does not support all hardware and a lot of old hardware won't even be supported. Most of it will be driver issues and Microsoft will rely on third parties making drivers for Vista for OEM Hardware to be included in the retail version of Vista.
I got a sneak peak at Vista on my laptop, it supported my Ethernet adapter but not my Wireless adapter, it supported my video card (but said it did not meet standards) but not my audio adapter. My 512M of RAM was the minimum, but not enough to run it fast. Chances are I'll have to buy a new laptop to run Vista, possibly one with Vista pre-loaded on it. I think that is what Microsoft is trying to do, force a new hardware purchase to run Vista. Because they own stock in a lot of hardware companies.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
A windows installation being a pain in the ass? That's unpossible.
Microsoft should have copied Flickr and just gone straight to Gamma, then we wouldn't have these issues.
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
its lousy that he had such a hard time with it, but i can't say that his experience is representative.
:)
I've been running Vista builds on my Dell D600 laptop for a couple months. I just insatlled a new build yesterday. Out of the box, my Intel 2100 802.11 card, my built-in Smartcard Reader, and my Conexant v90 modem were not detected. Everything else was, including my video hardware (Radeon Mobility). I didn't have any driver disks or anything, and it was a clean install.
The "get new drivers for my broken hardware" feature in vista works pretty slick. I used the Welcome center, clicked on "setup devices" (or something), and it went off to windows update and found and installed drivers for the 3 devices that weren't in-box.
Just for a point of comparison, if i install XP on the same exact machine, i have
- vga video
- no audio
- no modem
- no wireless net
- no WIRED net
- no SMBus controller
- no smartcard reader
So i guess i am saying, not only does Vista work "not bad" on laptops (i've had some problems with sleep/resume that we're having trouble tracking down), but the out-of-box driver experience is BETTER than it is for XP. And my laptop is an old crusty one - my video subsystem doesn't support the new video subsystem or any of that fanciness.
My laptop is my main machine for all email, web surfing, office apps, code reviews, etc etc. And it runs vista 100% of the time (except when i boot into xp to setup for taking a newer vista build). I use it at home and at work, both on wireless networks, in very different configurations.
It is not without its irritations and rough edges, but it's good enough for me to use it for a significant portion of my work duties.
I am curious about what build this guy was running - I'm surprised that he's been working on it for "4 days" because i'm not sure the final Beta2 build has been public that long
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
Ok, let's do that. Come up with a reasonable metric for "Beta" that can be applied to both an OS and a web service. Just because one is more complex doesn't mean that it's correct to use "Beta" for non-functioning software.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
That's something I'd almost believe...
Anyone who takes that guy's word on anything computer related is high on thermal grease. The guy has very little in-depth knowledge about any one thing in particular. He spends every day testing a different device, never getting any in-depth knowledge of any one of them.
I used to read Gary's reviews daily, mostly for his audio reviews because the guy does know audio. However, I stopped reading after his technology reviews became opinionated and off-base.
Finally, any idiot who tries to install Vista, a beta OS, on a device not marked as Vista-ready and then complains should not be considered a reliable source.
I have few older laptops as most recent ones and both Vista and XP are having troubles without driver CDs provided by manufacturer. However Linux works perfect on older laptops (that's not always the case on recent hw).
Pixel image editor - http://www.kanzelsberger.com
Funny, I had the opposite problem with Ubuntu. XP installed my (dirt common) PCI wireless networking card just fine, but Ubuntu couldn't figure the darn thing out.
You make a good point, everyone's experience differs, based on what hardware/OS combination they have.
But when you strip that away, and just look at ideal, stock-media install experience, the current Linux (and *BSD) installs are much less painful to do and more likely to be functional without trips to numerous web sites than MS installs, in my experience. In addition, a typical installation on the *nix side leaves you with a full set of applications, from compiler to word processor, vs. well, just Windows on the MS side.
As someone else pointed out, practicing the philosophy of Free Software can have its advantages
A house divided against itself cannot stand.
The summary takes the quote "for me [it] was one of the worst operating system experiences that I've ever encountered." directly from the article, making it sound like the author was describing the entire Vista Beta experience.
.. but come on! Save the bias for vacuum tubes.
He wasn't.
The FULL sentence from whence this quote was lifted reads (with my added emphasis):
"Installing Vista Beta 2, for me was one of the worst operating system experiences that I've ever encountered."
Awkward grammar aside, the author is talking about the installation and configuration experience, NOT Windows Vista as an overall OS experience.
I like to bash M$ as much as the next guy, have a mixed network of Windows and non-Windows systems at home, yadda yadda yadda,
Maybe he just just buy a MAC.
Are you saying that we shouldn't expect his 'new' hardware to be compatible with a later, *upgraded* version of the OS it was designed for?
Linux has (depending on the distro) provided an easier, simpler and more straightforward install process on most hardware since 2002 at least. My old Thinkpad has seen a lot of OS installs. Getting Windows up and running on it can take two or three evenings and countless reboots. Getting Linux up and running on the same hardware is a relatively painless process that takes about half an hour of interaction from me plus some "Leave it in the corner while it downloads stuff" time.
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
For all the people who have a knee-jerk response here -- "It's Beta, it's supposed to have bugs!" Or, "Gmail is simpler than an OS."
Here's how I interpret these stages:
Pre-alpha, nightly build, etc: We're not even sure what we're doing.
Alpha: Can be made to run, sometimes, at least enough to demonstrate that the software could concievably work.
Beta: Feature-freeze. Should be feature-complete, should mostly work. Usually, this means, works for the developers.
Release Candidate: No one who's testing it can break it anymore, but we're still going to wait a set amount of time with no known bugs before we release it.
Looking at this, it seems pretty obvious that most commercial "Beta" software is really of Alpha quality, with some nice exceptions -- Gmail is release quality, with features occasionally being added, and in this way it resembles the current 2.6 kernel. 2.6 itself took years to release after 2.4, and went through a number of release candidates, but now that it's basically stable, new features get added (and marked unstable if they are) every minor version.
Unfortunately, most commercial software, especially games, seem to be, at best, Release Candidate quality software, because deadlines simply do not allow for weeks or months to be spent in Release Candidate status. Also, I imagine software developed with rigorous Unit tests would spend much more time in Alpha, but could jump straight past Beta to Release Candidate, due to a lack of known bugs.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
I hate how people such as this article writer draw assumptions such as "I had to install a new driver and therefore had to reboot every 10 minutes". Just matter of factly, giving all readers the assumption this is the norm, instead of the real fact of the inherent design shortcomings of the OS.
The only time one should have to reboot due to upgrading or installing software is when the kernel is upgraded.
Beta OS
Drivers not made yet
'nuff said.
Oh, and it's Lenovo, not Levono
What is this guy expecting? Oh, and I'm a linux user not a MS fan boi.
Is all of his hardware on the compatibility list?
Did he look at the compatibility list or know what it is?
There is nothing worse than idiot journalists. People actually believe them, and that's dangerous. Makes you wonder what type of stupidity forms the rest of the stories in the media.
Is this guy even qualified to be writing this story?
-AC
I knew this guy was an idiot the minute I read the first paragraph. People with such lack of knowledge as this fool shouldn't be allowed to write anything, but his first name, middle initial and last name... on his adult high school application.
I was able to get a -great- deal on a ThinkPad just last week (R50e - $600).
You might have overpaid. I've seen R50e's for $200 at pawn shops near Army bases. It seems every GI gets one then pawns it off b/c low pay.
If your R50e default login is EARMYU, you got one of those.
Microsoft was interested in releasing this pre-Beta 2 (call it Beta 1.5) to this particular writer because doing so hypes the product and starts geting people talking about it 6 to 9 months before the OS is released. This is typical of the Microsoft PR Engine.
Additionally, the writer's comment that Vista "... is a good looking operating system with a number of new features, which will be familiar to you if you've played with recent versions of Apple's OS X." is designed to try to stop Windows users from switching to Apple's hardware and operating system due to Mac-Envy. Read it like this: "Just wait until Vista comes out and you'll get all of the things the Mac Fanboys have been chortling about on their operating system."
The instalation headaches are a pretty good way of decreasing expectations; it's kind of like how the US government will lower expectations for a conference by saying things like "the two sides are nowhere near an agreement." Read this like: "You'll get close to 60% of the ease of use and function the Mac Fanboys have been chortling about on their operating system."
The author works for MSNBC and you'd better believe that the cable channel will present a report from him as if it were "news" and it will show lots of images of the operating system running correctly on his computer (or on a specially-provided one from Microsoft). This should be seen as: "Just look at all of the coolness of Vista, like the Mac Fanboys have been chortling about on their operating system."
I should mention that I did a lot of work for Microsoft in years past and was involved in the promotion of the release of a not-very insignificant operating system release, called "Windows 95" (some here are young enough to remember back then). Microsoft released hundreds of tapes (or edited promo packages via satellite) to "news" outfits to run on their "news" programs. These consisted of video news releases (promotion masquerading as a real news story), clip reels that show everything from manufacturing to how it works (to provide the stations with something to air while they talk about it so that they'd run stories -- or free advertising -- about the new exciting Microsoft product) and answers to "interview" questions from Microsoft executives and project leaders so that they could be used as soundbites within station "news" stories. Microsoft is presently preparing to flood the airways and the press with information about their new operating system in a campaign to get users to not switch to other operating systems and to prepare to buy the Vista upgrade.
Executives are, even now, sallying forth from Microsoft to "do the circuit" of Technology talk shows as the hype engine prepares to swing into gear. I would imagine that Vista will get the same treatment in "roll out" hype as did Windows 95.
I should also mention that the release version of Microsoft Windows 95 convinced me that I ought to switch to Apple's operating system. I installed it on my personal computer and it proceeded to wipe out all data on two 512M hard drives (that would be the one it was being installed on as well as the other one on which it was not being installed. I reasoned, at the time, that if I was going to need to completely upgrade my way of working with an operating system, I ought to switch to something that did not tend to destroy data. Thankfully, I did have a tape backup of both drives.
Gods don't kill people, people with gods kill people.
I've watch many IT people install OSe on PCs. Every time they simply roll on a preformmated disk image. Most simply keep a stack of pre-image hard drives. If you have 1,000 or so PCs you don'r other with install CDs.
Wow, it looks like Microsoft has reached parity with Linux. 5 years hard wotk has sure paid off!
You don't have to be smart to use a Mac, you just have to be smart enough to buy one
Maybe he should install Linux instead. I'm sure the Audio drivers and WiFi drivers will work perfectly out of the box. So because they don't, Linux blows! That's some faulty logic if I ever heard it.
I recently installed Linux on a laptop (Mepis 6, coincidently also in beta) and the sound works fine and the wireless was trivial to set up. I certainly didn't have nearly the problems that he had with Windows.
"What is Internet Explorer 7? Are you saying we can't access the normal internet?" - I love tech support. Really.
1) It comes from Microsoft
2) They expect you to pay money for it.
- Nick
I think I will just go back and install NT 3.51 and compile Firefox and surf that way.
Seems like a day in the life of installing linux, at least gentoo, on a laptop. Not to say I don't use gentoo, on my laptop, but it took 4 days to install and then the audio and wireless didn't work right off the bat after that either.
This is a joke, right? So your NIC (the make/model of which you conveniently neglected to mention) doesn't have an inbox driver in XPSp2, and the conclusion is that Microsoft makes no effort to supply inbox drivers?
There are tons of generic class drivers inbox in Windows. In fact, I challenge you to name one that is missing that is available in, say, OS X. I'll be waiting.
Microsoft does not redistribute vendor drivers inbox for every piece of hardware out there in the world. You should know better than to expect that. Your computer vendor is responsible for providing the necessary install/setup CD to get your system up and running with the appropriate operating system and drivers. Microsoft cannot possibly be expected to cover each and every possible device that OEMs are including. Try as they might, there will always be gaps.
Have you heard of a USB flash key? Your complaints are starting to sound really hollow.
From the article "Installing Vista Beta 2, for me was one of the worst operating system experiences that I've ever encountered."
From the summary "for me [it] was one of the worst operating system experiences that I've ever encountered."
There's a big difference between [it] being the install experience and [it] being the OS itself.
--aiee
Closed source drivers are bad. Eventually interest in keeping drivers current is lost be someone other than a USER of that hardware. Yes, this is FUD...
I have a LOT of backup tapes generated on a Travan TR-1 drive. Some are QIC-80, some QIC-Wide and some TR-1. Yes, its obsolete. But the drives work fine, and I have lots of tapes. Can I have a Vista driver, please?
I have other hardware in a similar category. But, taking the tape drive -- the only reason I can still use it is that the protocol was reverse-engineered, and a driver written for Linux. Some sound cards are in the same category, &etc.
In a nutshell, weak driver support DROVE me to Linux. These days, driver support is so skewed that I purchased and tried Windows XP on a box. After installing, the CD-ROM never appeared (that it just loaded from). Of course the vendor drivers did not fit on a floppy, and the network didn't work without the vendor driver. Gave up on it -- threw Linux on, and everything worked.
Now, I buy hardware based on Linux compatibility, not Windows. Tends to be cheaper (except for wireless networking -- I generally use D-Link DWL-810+ or equivalents, which work for anything ethernet).
YMMV
Ratboy
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
Parent is a bit off his rocker. There's no reason to assume you can't do a fresh OS install on a laptop. This is why the manufacturer provides you with drivers. I've done this on my old laptop several times. Only reason I can't do it on my new one is because it's a tablet and you basically *can't buy* a copy of Windows XP Tablet anywhere unless you're an OEM.
+++ATH0
Laptops have so much custom hardware these days that it's a Bad Idea(TM) to attempt an OS installation from anything but restore CDs.
:)
Custom hardware? Hardly, they all use off-the-shelf chipsets from various places. If you know what you are doing you can find out exactly what chipsets are used in your laptop and just get generic drivers for those chipsets. Some times you have to force the issue, that is force windows to install a drive it says does not match the hardware, due to the use of some custom PCI vendor IDs in some cases. I do this all the time, in some rare cases you cannot get a driver to work but most of the time I can get any version of windows to work on a laptop regardless of the manufacturer providing compatible driver packs. Yes, you may loose some custom software feature support, perhaps the volume controls on the keyboard will not be supported or something along those lines. Not a big deal for most of us hacker types, but perhaps not what some end users would want to do.
That being said, this only works for those of us in the know. Yes, for the average person this would be a "Bad Idea(TM)". For most people the only option on laptops is the restore disk. I am just pointing out that there IS another way... the h4x0r way!
Now, as for vista beta 2, it's beta software with a new driver format! In this case yeah, I could see there being problems finding drivers. The guy should have checked the hardware compatibility list first and used a system with compatible hardware for his tests. Makes you wonder if this person is really qualified to perform beta testing and write articles about it...
BWAHAHAHAHA! I've been waiting for a chance to use that line for years. ;)
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Microsoft, at least once a year, ends up in front of a judge defending their "right to innovate" (aka "copy", in the Redmond area, anyway). It's a spurious argument really - each time they defend it, they sound like innovation is some sacrament bestowed on only Microsoft - as if no one else has the right to innovate. I say the argument is spurious, because when you look up "innovate", at dictionary.com you see this definition: "To begin or introduce (something new) for or as if for the first time."
Since they so so seldomly do anything but copy/buy/nick successful patterns invented elsewhere, we really have to stretch the "... as if for the first time" part of that definition to fit MS in there. But hey, stretching the truth, where Microsfsoft is concerned, is hardly innovative.
- The Kessel run is for nerf herders. I can circumnavigate the entire Central Finite Curve in a lot less than 12 parse
Unfortunately, not everything I downloaded is Vista-ready so rebooting had to occur after every 10 minutes of computer use.
Isn't that standard Windows use?
And if memory serves isn't the Beta 2 version pretty much what you're going to be stuck with when it ships until the first major SP1 patch comes out?
If you've never been modded as "flamebait" or "troll," you've never tried to argue a minority viewpoint here!
Two out of his three laptops had hardware failures unrelated to Vista so how do they even get to get mentioned in an article complaining about Vista's laptop support.
His remaining laptop had issues with the availability of 3rd party drivers to support 3rd party hardware. How exactly is this supposed to be MS's problem?
A non-story.
I really didn't know; that's why I asked. I don't use Windows much anymore so I don't always keep up-to-date with every decision that comes from Redmond. Thanks for giving me the answer.
Limiting signing to 64-bit Windows will help reduce the collateral damage involving older 32-bit hardware. As for my concerns about foreclosing smaller hardware manufacturers, the article reports that Microsoft has radically lowered the barrier to entry for hardware manufacturers. MS will issue a cert for free as long as the driver writers pay an annual fee around $500 to Verisign for a "Class 3 Commercial Software Publisher Certificate." (And, might I add, what a nice little windfall for Verisign.) On the other hand, the fact that Microsoft signs a driver will no longer indicate that the driver is being certified as reliable or secure, just that it has come from someone who holds one of these free, Microsoft-issued certificates and was able to spend $500 at Verisign. This seems rather limited protection against the threat of rootkit drivers which is the claimed rationale for the requirement that drivers be signed.
Like most new windows OS, you wait 1 year from the original release date for it actually is released. Then you wait another year for them to fix it.
I recently installed Linux on a laptop (Mepis 6, coincidently also in beta) and the sound works fine and the wireless was trivial to set up.
I recently installed Linux on a laptop (fedora 5) and the wireless was a complete bitch to set up, and the DVD drive plays up whenever I put a music CD with a data track in it. I certainly didn't have nearly the problems when I installed XP.
Aren't anecdotes great? In truth, I really don't expect too much in terms of hardware support from any OS. Linux hardware support is better Out Of the Box (hereafter reffered to as ootb because I'm lazy), but that's partly because it has to be, since very few hardware vendors make linux drivers. Conversely, Windows OOTB support is abysmal, but that's not a problem because every vendor supports Windows.
In terms of drivers, both OS's have strengths and weaknesses. Linux ships with just about everything, but a few things just will not work, such as winmodems, some MP3 players, the USB ports on this sodding keyboard. Windows on the other hand ships with next to nothing, but everyhting will work. I would bet a mortage repayment it will be impossible to walk into PC world a year after Vista launches and buy a piece of hardware that won't work with it.
"I realise this is not a very popular opinion but it's the truth, and there for needs to be said" -Bill Hicks
Am I the only one who's sitting here and wondering, "What was this guy thinking?!" Laptops have so much custom hardware these days that it's a Bad Idea(TM) to attempt an OS installation from anything but restore CDs.
That's funny - every single piece of hardware on both my Dell D600 and D800 laptops worked out of the box with Kubuntu Breezy.
Given that even with all the bells and whistles and Thai happy ending massage features they've piled on it's STILL a Goddamn desktop OS. We can all pooh pooh the excruciating complexity of this but it's still just a desktop OS. Installation to a desktop machine should be one of the three highest priorities and by priorities it has to be a critical fundamental design feature. Either revamp the entire Hardware abstraction layer and driver model or not. And if not then just tell us it's not a desktop OS.
Because if MS touted this as a server OS and couldn't figure out how to install the OS to SCSI or SATA drives or couldn't install quotas or couldn't do any of the things that are important for server hardware then we'd be pretty damn angry about it, wouldn't we?
So let's just say that MS has a long inglorious history of not paying attention to what's important. They didn't just screw this one up, they've been screwing it up for 20 years.
It's a desktop OS, a DESKTOP. Make it installable to desktop machines as the #1, 2 or 3 priority.
to become GNU/Linux machines.
See, Microsoft isn't really evil after all!
You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
I recently installed Linux on a laptop (fedora 5) and the wireless was a complete bitch to set up, and the DVD drive plays up whenever I put a music CD with a data track in it. I certainly didn't have nearly the problems when I installed XP.
How was wireless a bitch? I wouldn't even call ndiswrapper a bitch, and that's the worst I've heard wireless taking. What problems did you have?
What do you mean when say that the music cd has a data track? Doesn't that make it a data cd, not a music cd?
When you say that the DVD drive plays up, what do you mean? Do you mean it starts up your DVD player and plays your music? That's an easy option to stop. Do you mean that it starts up a media player when you put in a data cd?
You're spot on in comparing the benefits, Linux w/ its ootb support, Windows with its universal compatability. I, personally, would rather be a little careful in my hardware purchases rather than go through the headache of finding drivers when I reinstall or upgrade. Hell, I haven't been careful, yet I haven't had any problems with my hardware and Linux. I think Linux's hardware support is broad enough that its ootb support outways Windows' universal support.
"What is Internet Explorer 7? Are you saying we can't access the normal internet?" - I love tech support. Really.
"which meant wiping out everything on the hard drive and starting from scratch. That took about an hour to complete. It also removed every device driver that I needed to run the laptop."
Funny, last time I formatted my hard drive, all my device drivers were still installed, I don't know how this could have happened.
"I did try installing Vista on two other laptops. One, it turns out, needs a new Real Time Clock battery (a trip to the manufacturer is needed) and another which had a massive hard drive failure at the beginning of the installation process."
During your drive to the manufacturer for a radio shack cmos battery, did you come to the realization that this entire paragraph is irrelevant?
"I did not try to install the Vista Beta on the computer I'm using to write this. I'll bet you can figure out why."
Because Vista doesn't support your Lenovo laptop completely? That's the closest reason I can come up with.
"and a set of high-performance, all-season tires."
A set of what? WHY DO THEY LET FUCKING ILLITERATE PEOPLE WRITE FOR POPULAR NEWS SOURCES!. This is just as bad as the Bose commercial where one of the ways they promote their "audio product" is by telling us what some jerkoff from The Boston Globe thinks about it. Oh, yeah thats right, audiophile magazines would never review that hunk of shit, so we need to get some 90 year old financial expert to review it.
I'm sorry, I'm just a little frustrated with all this negative crap about a beta operating system.
Why does nobody say anything about any betas besides Microsoft ones?
Mod me negative all you want because im defending MS, but just so you know I wrote this from a linux box.
Windows has more viruses because linux has more virus coders.
Vista is still in BETA you retards! Of course it's going to have problems!
That has to be the worst and most useless review I have ever read. This guy gets paid to do this?!
"Violence, the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived..."
Article summary:
Vendors haven't written drivers for a pre-release OS. Installing an OS without hardware drivers is difficult.
In other news, the sky is blue.
Wow, does slashdot now need to goto MSNBC to find negative things about Microsoft? This is pretty bad as I wouldnt trust anything the mass media says regarding computers (even if it is owned by MS). Typically, I find the tradional print press and its outlets to be a minimum of 6 months behind on even the most general of things.
"...can make it this easy for free, why can't a corporation with the resources of MS do it for their proprietary OS?"
I'm sure YOU know why, but for any newbies here who don't, this is why I think it's so:
For ms, there is profit in it only if money is made, territory is subsumed, or Macs and Linux are displaced.
For Linux and Open Source, the profit is from liberating people-- or at LEAST providing an opportunity for relief and freedom of choice. Profit may also stem from the "stick it to them" gratification. The playing field is leveled, openness is provided, and the more enlightened and willing-to-learn types get a chance to oil the skids of software/os hegemony. Best of all, Linux and Open Source software can run on MODEST and OLDER hardware on which windows would CROAK (these days).
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
1.) It looks a rip off of the Mac OS again
2.) Miscrosoft is making it
"To be is to do." --Socrates
"To do is to be." -- Aristotle
"Do-Be-Do-Be-Do..." --Sinatra
Does anyone know if the mountain on the Vista home screen as shown in the article is Mount Sir Donald? Sure looks like it...
Keep one thing always in mind: Linux ships with all device drivers. And with no BSODs. People blasted 9x because it was so much more unstable than Linux. Now people blast XP because, if we consider only the "certified" drivers, it has worse support for hardware than Linux. How difficult would it be for Microsoft to have a decent set of updated hardware drivers?
We hear all the time from the Microsoft astroturfers that Linux has poor hardware support. XP is much worse. I once mentioned a particular problem I had, with XP bluescreening when a JVC camcorder was plugged into the USB port. They told me "but that model has no certified driver!". Well, then that model of camcorder is *not* supported by XP. And if the hardware is too old, XP has no drivers for it. I know because I have an old Adaptec PCMCIA SCSI card and a Genius scanner for which I could never find XP drivers.
Now you are saying that if the hardware is very new then XP doesn't have the drivers either. I know that too, because I have a Philips wide screen LCD monitor that I could never get working perfectly in XP, the drivers supplied in the CD aren't recognized by XP. The best I could get was a squashed 1600x1024 resolution, instead of 1680x1050. Should I blame Philips for that? In Linux it took me thirty seconds to get that monitor working perfectly, why is it so hard to get it working in XP?
If it's too old it doesn't work, if it's too new it doesn't work, if it isn't certified it doesn't work... I have a Dell desktop at work, a white box desktop at home, a HP laptop. All of them are dual-boot, XP+Ubuntu. In Ubuntu all the hardware I have works perfectly, with only one exception, an HP 3570c scanner which only works in some modes. Everything else, including the Adaptec SCSI card, the Genius scanner, the Philips monitor, and the JVC camcorder work perfectly in Linux, but not at all or with BSODs in XP.
This article is truly pisspoor, but still, one cannot help but wonder - what on earth have Microsoft been doing for the past five years? Really? What? This is appalling. They've added the sidebar, which just uses up screen space and, er, that's it. Great.
:)
Man, if they didn't have a monopoly, they would be so fucked.
iqu
The article actually states:
/. ?
"Installing Vista Beta 2 was one of the worst operating system experiences that I've ever encountered."
and NOT
"for me [it] was one of the worst operating system experiences that I've ever encountered."
This is intentionally misleading at best, and arguably litigious in nature at worst.
He is implying the Operatign System Experience was the worst, when it applies only to an installation - which, on a laptop for a beta OS is hardly rocket surgery to figure out is going to be a problem.
Frankly, the article seems like shit to me: written by a moron, no details provided, except that he owns two useless other laptops. He even sounds surprised that formatting C: and then installing windows from scratch "removed every device driver that I needed to run the laptop" OMG - LOL - PONIES! Is this guy for real?
Why the fuck didn't you install the drivers from the CD-ROM that came with the laptop? Or more importantly, why did you not back them up at some stage during your ownership of the device?
He then bitches that built in (proprietary) audio didn't work and he has an ADD-IN WiFi PCMCIA card which also doesn't work! SHOCK HORROR: I bet it wouldn't work when you installed Windows XP either - fuck-knuckle! That is why device manufacturers include a DRIVER DISK when you buy a product!
How the fuck did this article end up published on
How many escape pods are there? "NONE,SIR!" You counted them? "TWICE, SIR!"
The "new features" are somewhat comical. FTFA:
We all know the major feature, WinFS, was cut from Vista/Longhorn. A badly-needed process manager is missing. I'll vote with my wallet.
From viewing various videos on-line, I have no doubt that Vista will be, at least GUI wise, an impressive looking beast, and certainly a lot of the features in it (even if they're taken from Mac OS X) will be enough to hold over those who might have thought about switching to Mac's. This presuming they get it out anywhere near on time and in a stable form.
Hi. I just downloaded the beta 2 bits and ran the upgrade install from a mounted ISO file - didnt even bother to burn a DVD.
Installed it on a Dell D600. Pentium M 1.4 GhZ, 1GB memory.
No driver problems. The install picked up the ATI Mobility Radeon 9000, the wired and wireless NICs, and the audio. No modem yet, but then I didnt bother installing it the last time I loaded XP either.
No performance problems. FWICT, Vista appears to utilize the machine about as well as XP did, which was pretty snappy.
Eclipse failed to start the first time I ran it, because the user access settings denied write access to the folder it was installed in. After adjusting those ACLs, Eclipse runs just fine.
Maybe I got lucky on the hardware compatibility lotto. Maybe the author of the fine article did not. Maybe the singular of data is not anecdote.
meh.
Think of Vistas new features as similar to what you might find on a new model car shiny new mag wheels, a finely tuned suspension and a set of high-performance, all-season tires. It still looks like a car and youre still going to know where the pedals are and how to drive but you will find that youll be able to push it to a new set of higher limits.
You can say that about KDE with a straight face. I can say it about Gnome and Enlightenment too. Oh yeah, Mepis' GUI install won't wipe your XP or your files in the half hour it takes to get everything right.
Everything is in place for a GNU/Linux desktop revolution. M$ has shot itself in the head. They've gone six years without a new release, despite bragging that all sorts of fantastic features were just around the corner for years. As the corner finally becomes visible, as the worst OS experience ever, the only thing left of the promissed features is massive hardware requirements, DRM and media that won't work. To make matters worse, they think they have the world by the nuts and are tightening all their usual anti competitive nonsense. Being free has never been so easy. M$ has lost it.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
It doesn't matter if it's shite. It doesn't matter if it's expensive. It doesn't matter if it's DRMed and Trusted-Computinged out the wazoo.
It's Windows. It will therefore sell a kerjillion copies no matter what.
With spending like this, exactly what are "conservatives" conserving?
Ms think they've got a product in pretty good shape.
They release it to other people.
Other people find problems and report them to MS.
MS fix problems.
Lenovo customers buy product off shelf later on and it 'magically works'
Seriously though - To sum up the article "This Beta isn't up to the quality of a shipping product!!!"
No - because then that would be a shipping product you had, not a F'IN BETA YOU RETARD *and breathes*
Why wasn't he using VMWare or VirtualPC to test it?
My god, these so called 'professionals' are a joke.
"Dear Sir, I bought you're Miracle Stain Preventer for my carpet, but no matter how many times I wash my dog in it he still poops everywhere."
What next? 'Professionals' advocating reinstalling Windows every month because they do not know how to backup a system with a ghosting tool, manage their system updates, or actually use it for anything seriously enough to require weeks of customisation effort? On wait, that was in another dozen articles...
Seriously, if he is so ignorant he does not know he should have a beefed up PC with VMware on it for doing this sort of thing, he has no business writing articles about it.
Look, I know everyone says that Vista is copying features from OS X, but copying their trolls too is just too much!
"She's furniture with a pulse"
I don't think I've ever seen such a large gathering of apologists. Simply put, the reviewer should not have had the number of issues he did with Vista.
From earlier in the discussion, "If the Beta is meant to run on a very specifically configured machine, then MS should clearly state as much so that people who are reviewing the product don't waste their time. A Beta (or near beta) OS should work on most consumer computer hardware, of which laptops now make up the majority."
(here)
It's just not ready, and not very impressive, either.
Absolute utter crap! Despite my general dislike for all things Windows, it's ludicrous to claim an OS is no good because it doesn't work on every custom piece of laptop hardware on the planet. What a looser... I sometimes wonder why these "tech columnists" have these jobs? They probably earn twice what a typical programmer does too. Absolute. Utter. Crap.
I had a spare SATA drive and tossed it in my new Dell 1505, gig of ram X1400 video card. I installed 5308 of Vista, and didn't have any of the problems he had. After install, I just popped in the drivers that vista didn't pick up on and had it up and running with no yellow bangs(!). Other than the fact it probably would have run better with 2 gig of ram, it ran ok right out of the gate. Hopefully, beta2 will be a little tighter, and RC0,1, and or 2 will be coded a little tighter for better optimization. Unless they really screw something up between now and the RTM version, I don't know what all the fury is all about. If they price it right, I'll buy it, but if the prices I saw last week are even close, I'll wait until the OEM version is offered.
How was wireless a bitch? I wouldn't even call ndiswrapper a bitch, and that's the worst I've heard wireless taking. What problems did you have?
It was a bitch in as much as I have never used NDISWrapper before (the rest of my network is wired) and it took me 2 nights of playing around with it to get the wireless up and running. It works fine now, but given that the same PCMCIA card took less than 5 minutes to install under XP, I think that qualifies as a bitch.
What do you mean when say that the music cd has a data track? Doesn't that make it a data cd, not a music cd?
Most new music CDs (or at least, most of the ones I buy) now include some form of data content. When you put them in a Windows machine they auto play, and load a playback program. So, they have a data track on them.
When you say that the DVD drive plays up, what do you mean? Do you mean it starts up your DVD player and plays your music? That's an easy option to stop. Do you mean that it starts up a media player when you put in a data cd?
No, although it does start a CD player when I put a music CD in, even if it has one of those data tracks (out of curiosity, do you buy many CDs, and if so, which artists?). That's what it's meant to do. No, the annoying bit is when I want to get the CD out. It will not eject, either through hardware or software eject buttons. Attempting to manually unmount produces error messages, and the drive tray stays locked shut until I reset the laptop. I did start a thread about this on one of the support forums, and a few other people have had the same problem. Not a really big deal, since I mainly listen to my music as MP3s anyway.
Now I, personally, would rather keep a CDR with all my drivers backed than have to wade through comptibility lists and support forums every time I want a shiny new gadget. So for me, Window's universal support outweighs Linux's OOTB compatibility. Of course thats just a personal opinion. You don't mind research. I don't mind backing up drivers.
Having said all that, I still use linux almost exclusivly at home, because its many other advantages outweigh this one disadvantage.
"I realise this is not a very popular opinion but it's the truth, and there for needs to be said" -Bill Hicks
Bzzzt here's on article on Paul Thorrott's Windows SuperSite talking about the begining of Longhorn (now vista development) from 2002 talking about the previous years Longhorn development in 2001. Vista is a long bake turkey, try ahhmm 5 years.
v iew.asp
http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/longhorn_pre
Tired of all the isms, don't exploit people as an employer, or a government, mmmmK?
It was a bitch in as much as I have never used NDISWrapper before (the rest of my network is wired) and it took me 2 nights of playing around with it to get the wireless up and running.
... (out of curiosity, do you buy many CDs, and if so, which artists?).
Wow. What did you do? It took me all of two minutes the first time I used ndiswrapper. Seriously, it was two or three lines of commands that I copied and pasted, and I was done. Did you get instructions for the wrong distro or something?
Most new music CDs (or at least, most of the ones I buy) now include some form of data content. When you put them in a Windows machine they auto play, and load a playback program. So, they have a data track on them.
Ah, ok. I don't buy RIAA music, only indie, so none of my music cds have data tracks.
No, the annoying bit is when I want to get the CD out. It will not eject, either through hardware or software eject buttons.
Ah, so why didn't you just say that you have problems unmounting. Also, that's not a Linux problem, that's a bug in your distro or your music player.
So for me, Window's universal support outweighs Linux's OOTB compatibility. Of course thats just a personal opinion. You don't mind research. I don't mind backing up drivers.
Actually, I haven't done any research, all my hardware was bought back when I was a Windows user (because I'm poor and rarely buy hardware). So either I'm extremely lucky, or Linux is pretty damn broad in its support.
In fact, I've had better hardware support with Linux. Here's an anecdote to chip away in your faith in Windows' universalness. A while ago (back when I was using Windows) my DVD burner stopped burning. I researched it, and as I understand is at some point DVD-R technology changed and most most manufacturers made firmware upgrades to follow this change. The manufacturer of my burner however, did not. So my burner would no longer work with any new DVD-Rs made, sucks to be me. I thought I'ld have to pony up the money for a new burner, when, lo and behold, I tried it one day in Linux and it works perfectly.
I also find that driver disks tend to disappear when you need them the most. I'ld much rather have a system that will most likely configure everything on install than hope I can find some disk and obscure files on the internet to make everything work. I'ld be happy never to install Windows again, however, it's looking like I will have to at work, and I'm dreading it after being spoiled by easy Linux installs.
"What is Internet Explorer 7? Are you saying we can't access the normal internet?" - I love tech support. Really.
I have had similar problems, although everything working cool now with Debian Sarge (running gnome not KDE).. you might try using your file manager and right-clicking the CD drive and see if there is an option "unmount" once unmounted the CD will probably eject using the button or with the software eject.... anyway don't know for certain, but try it, better than rebooting.
waiting for ad.doubleclick.net
Unwanted software like:
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. It only affects the people around you. Same thing when you're stupid.
SHOCK! Beta software can have bugs in it!
Wow. What did you do? It took me all of two minutes the first time I used ndiswrapper. Seriously, it was two or three lines of commands that I copied and pasted, and I was done. Did you get instructions for the wrong distro or something?
Bully for you. I think you'll find some people do hit the odd snag when using NDIS Wrapper. Those are just the top three hits when I serached btw. I have no doubt that if I were to read all those threads throught to their conclusions, then yes the people involved got it working. But please accept that any hardware install requiring thirty four posts to a forum thread to get working is, in fact, a bitch.
Ah, so why didn't you just say that you have problems unmounting. Also, that's not a Linux problem, that's a bug in your distro or your music player
Well, I wasn't being specific about things in my original post, since I was just illustrating a point. I probably should have given a little more detail. for the record, I can say for sure it's not the music player, since it has the same problem whether the player is running or not, and I turned off auto play just to check. I expect you're right and it is peculiar to this distro (FC5), but really, I don't draw much distinction. I mean, if you're DVD drive didn;t work in XP Home, I doubt you'd be all too happy if MS told you "thats just a fault with the home distro, try pro instead". Besides, if someone tells me linux has superb hardware support, I don't want to hear ten minutes later "except that distro".
I researched it, and as I understand is at some point DVD-R technology changed and most most manufacturers made firmware upgrades to follow this change. The manufacturer of my burner however, did not. So my burner would no longer work with any new DVD-Rs
Now thats a new one on me. I've never heard of this before, might google it later (nothing to do at work atm). Just one thing I'm curious about though. If the problem is with the firmware, why would changing OS make any difference? I mean it's the same firmware.
Yes, I have generally found Linuxs OOTB hardware suppor to tbe superb, easily the best of any modern OS. I have also found several bits of kit down the years which have either been totally unsurported, or required hours of tweaking and arcane hacks to get working. ATM I have four bits of hardware that do not work properly. That's amazingly good, considering the lack of help from vendors. My tally of unsurported hardware in windows is nil.
Please do understand that I am NOT bashing Linux. It's my desktop OS of choice. I just think that there are places where it still hasn't caught up with Windows, and hardware support is the single largest one, mainly due to the attitudes of vendors.
"I realise this is not a very popular opinion but it's the truth, and there for needs to be said" -Bill Hicks
My system (a Gateway M685-E laptop) has the opposite problem: Audio works fine in Vista, though only when the external output is plugged in, but in Linux the sound chip (SigmaTel STAC9250) does NOT work. ALSA finds the snd_hda_intel, and I can play things to it, but no sound comes out. Also, the mixer lists no inputs at all.
is the last one. I found it to be the (ironic-) funniest tech-video I have ever seen.
But please accept that any hardware install requiring thirty four posts to a forum thread to get working is, in fact, a bitch.
I wasn't saying it's not, I was just wondering what it all took. I wasn't trying to be mean or minimize what you went through, I just wanted to know because I've never had a problem with it so I didn't know what problems you could have with it.
I mean, if you're DVD drive didn;t work in XP Home, I doubt you'd be all too happy if MS told you "thats just a fault with the home distro, try pro instead".
Well, at least with Linux it's not a case of "give us more money and we'll fix things that should have been fixed in the first place". But bugs do happen, and if you want an example from the Windows side, Outlook 2003 has a bug where it randomly starts duplicating messages. Either outgoing, and it will send literally thousands of the same message, or incoming, where it will duplicate every message it receives a couple dozen times. This is possibly more annoying than your CD issue. MS did fix it for Office 2003 service pack 2, but for all the people who had the problem before sp2, well, sucked for them.
Besides, if someone tells me linux has superb hardware support, I don't want to hear ten minutes later "except that distro".
I'm sorry; I should be saying Mepis and Ubuntu have excellent hardware support, because I haven't tested every distro.
Now thats a new one on me. I've never heard of this before, might google it later (nothing to do at work atm).
If it helps your search, I just noticed that my DVD+R package has a card that says "ATTENTION 2.4X DVD+RX/+R Drive Owners FIRMWARE UPGRADE FOR NEW 4X WRITE SPEED DVD+R DISCS". I don't feel like copying the rest of it, but it explains firmwre upgrades, and has a website (http://www.dvdrwservices.com/), thought the website is now hyped up about DVD+R Double Layer and has appearently forgotten about the write speeds issue.
Just one thing I'm curious about though. If the problem is with the firmware, why would changing OS make any difference? I mean it's the same firmware.
Damned if I know.
My tally of unsurported hardware in windows is nil.
My tally is Windows 1, Linux 0. Though I'm begininning to think I'm abnormally lucky.
Please do understand that I am NOT bashing Linux. It's my desktop OS of choice. I just think that there are places where it still hasn't caught up with Windows, and hardware support is the single largest one, mainly due to the attitudes of vendors.
I'm glad you like Linux, too. I think because I haven't had any problems with Linux and hardware, I assumed the problems weren't there. I'll try to be better about that in the future and realize that most people don't accidently buy all Linux compatible hardware like I appearently did.
"What is Internet Explorer 7? Are you saying we can't access the normal internet?" - I love tech support. Really.
Vista has a new drive model. One of the few new featues that has not been scrapped from the final version.
That means the hardware makers will need to make new drivers for vista and a a lot of old hardware will not work.
Because they want to sell new hardware, they wont be hard pressed to make drivers to old stuff.
Oh, the joys of proprietary drivers...
The main problem of Vista is, there's no Vista yet. It's just some screenshots and something that will be available in future :)
Pixel image editor - http://www.kanzelsberger.com
"Built-in audio and wireless didn't work on his Levono laptop. It took four days to get the first installation." ... They stole Gentoo, now!?
seconded.
-Seeing the problem is ½ of solution-