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DHS Allowed To Take Laptops Indefinitely
andy1307 writes with a Washington Post story giving details of Department of Homeland Security policies for border searches of laptops and other electronic devices (as well as papers). (We have been discussing border searches for a while now.) DHS says such procedures have long been in place but were "disclosed last month because of public interest in the matter," according to the article. Here is a link to the policy (PDF, 5 pages). "Federal agents may take a traveler's laptop or other electronic device to an off-site location for an unspecified period of time without any suspicion of wrongdoing, as part of border search policies the Department of Homeland Security recently disclosed. Also, officials may share copies of the laptop's contents with other agencies and private entities for language translation, data decryption, or other reasons, according to the policies, dated July 16 and issued by two DHS agencies, US Customs and Border Protection and US Immigration and Customs Enforcement... DHS officials said that the newly disclosed policies — which apply to anyone entering the country, including US citizens — are reasonable and necessary to prevent terrorism... The policies cover 'any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form,' including hard drives, flash drives, cell phones, iPods, pagers, beepers, and video and audio tapes. They also cover 'all papers and other written documentation,' including books, pamphlets and 'written materials commonly referred to as "pocket trash..."'"
Worst part is despite the searches and seizures, they accomplish very little. You inconvenience and step all over the rights of average, law-abiding citizens to give the impression of safety.
gayzilla. I'm going to start keeping thermite self-destruct sequences within my laptops.
This is crazy, people. Make sure you're not wearing any clothing with text on it, you might have to enter the USA naked.
What is even worse is that if you try to use encryption to maintain a level of privacy and security, that will just mean they'll keep it longer while they try to crack it.
I feel bad for all the Americans who value their privacy. Unfortunately this has been the case in Australia for a while now. I remember the story of a Journalist/Author (I think) who was sent a copy of a book that contained a lot of classified information. The Australian police (unsure of division) went to her house, took her computer and smashed it in front of her. Lovely world we live in. I feel bad for our children.
They seized the comment section
Big Brother. Only this time he's not just taking your stuff to play games on it.
(Or maybe the are. DHS doesn't allow any games on their desktops. Maybe this just lets them play Minesweeper for a while.)
What happened to needing "probable cause" as a justification for a search?
TLR
A man no more knows his destiny than a tea leaf knows the history of the East India Company
Just because their little law says they can do it doesn't mean it doesn't run afoul of the Contitutional protections. Were this to be challenged, it would be killed pretty quickly: one cannot instigate such as this in the name of "terrorism" and not expect at least one challenge on "unreasonable search and seizure." You cannot fight global terrorism by turning the USA into a police-state. All that accomplishes is angering the populace....and you remember the last time Americans became angry with their government?...
Gee, I wonder what other reasons those could be.
"AW DAMNIT, MY NEW LAPTOP GOT A VIRUS WHEN I WAS LOOKING UP PORN AGAIN"
"Don't worry about it, we have plenty of others lying around" YOINK
But...
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have to at least consider that it is a bird of the family anatidae (apologies to Douglas Adams)
This is outrageous! and a 4th amendment violation.
Hitler may have lost WWII, but the forces of fascism and totalitarianism are still fighting the war and are winning.
Seriously, is this the kind of country we want to live in ?
"Federal agents may take a traveler's laptop or other electronic device to an off-site location for an unspecified period of time without any suspicion of wrongdoing"
Warrantless wiretapping, and this ? what's next ? the right for the government to install Video cameras inside of our homes to fight terrorism ?
where does this ends ?
http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2007/20070125.jpg
I thought it was funny the first time I read it, it's scary that it may be more true now. )=
Right America? RIGHT?!
... *eyeroll*
And you attack dictatorships to spread freedom
BOFH from DHS : I have an excellent way to reduce our IT spending...
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Normally I would put together a verbose, and perhaps even eloquent, response to such information. But I can only think of two words.
Bull shit.
We are losing, people. We are losing our rights and there will be more to come. That our own personal property can be seized "to fight terrorism" on the terms presented is absolute, unadulterated, pure and uncut bull shit.
Don't give them any thing if you are citizen.
When the try to take it from you, you are gonna have a fourth amendment field day with those asshats.
" Also, officials may share copies of the laptop's contents with other agencies and private entities for language translation, data decryption, or other reasons"
Why not jut go all out and say, "We have the right to seize any of you possesions, for no reason and share them with anyone we feel like and there is nothing you can do about it"
I don't feel any safer, does anyone else?
Failure is not the only punishment for laziness; there is also the success of others. - Jules Renard (1864 - 1910)
DHS officials said that the newly disclosed policies -- which apply to anyone entering the country, including US citizens -- are reasonable and necessary to prevent terrorism...
My god. I can understand that they think those policies are necessary, but nobody can believe that is reasonable.
"We can take everything you own and keep it as long as we want. Only if we feel like it. We think this is a reasonable exchange, you get to enter the country, we get to steal your stuff"
Tis women makes us love, Tis Love that makes us sad, Tis sadness makes us drink, And drinking makes us mad.
I wonder what would happen if you would buy the cheapest laptop you can find on ebay a put a file on the desktop called "Super secret terorist plans.txt" and write "Fuck you" inside.
"Yeah, you'll get your stuff back in, uh, fourty years. Sorry, rules are rules. And only if it doesn't get lost or misplaced until then."
And when are they going to start confiscating pacemakers and hearing aids ? Last I've heard, these things can also store information in digital form.
"Welcome to the Land of the Free. We're now going to free you of your laptop, cellphone, ..."
R Tape loading error, 0:1
Its nice that government agencies regard the Constitution as toilet paper.
What they fail to realize is that all their power originates with that document, and in a way, it's like a contract between the government and the people. Since the government has decided to violate the terms (breach of contract), then maybe we should stop recognizing their authority, since they have chosen to invalidate that document that is the sole source of that authority?
If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
You know, as an American I can say that I would gladly give up my "right" to security for this crap to just go away. Let the people protect themselves from the invisible enemy and force the government to focus on problems that really matter. Like the country's growing illiteracy rate, or the growing rate of obesity, or hey... how about the economy going to shit. Oh I forgot, we need those fat and stupid people working for the DHS at airports and other "high security" areas. They need jobs too. Homeland Security was just another huge mistake by the Bush administration that I hope will be corrected at some point in the near future. I love my country and all, but if the United States keeps following down this road, I am gone.
Customs Deputy Commissioner Jayson P. Ahern said the efforts "do not infringe on Americans' privacy." In a statement submitted to Feingold for a June hearing on the issue, he noted that the executive branch has long had "plenary authority to conduct routine searches and seizures at the border without probable cause or a warrant" to prevent drugs and other contraband from entering the country.
Perhaps it's just a poor characterization of his statements, but it appears that Mr. Ahern just doesn't get it. Regardless of what authority the executive branch has had, he needs a pretty damn strong argument as to why these efforts don't infringe on "Americans'" privacy. I can't think of any reasonable argument that they do not. Whether it's a *justified* infringement is a somewhat subtler question, but these powers are certainly subject to abuse. Further, even the obscenely few restrictions on preserving the data after the investigation is completed are little consolation in the face of the many stories of data mishandling by government entities. Mr. Ahern desperately needs to get a clue.
Further, even as an American I take exception to the idea that it's only relevant for our government to protect "Americans'" privacy, as is implied by this quote. Again, it might be due to incomplete quoting, but I somehow doubt that. As a scientist who frequently works with international collaborators, it's really true that communities outside the U.S. are deciding to keep their business out of this country due to the ridiculous policies for entering. It's often just not worth the effort. Way to go, Executive Branch!!
I thought that you had the right to be secure in your papers and personal effects. Fourth ammendment, google tells me. I hope this raises a big enough stink to become an election issue. The DHS needs to be reigned in something fierce.
"I'm not impatient. I just hate waiting." - My Dad
That includes BRAINS!
Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
The policies cover 'any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form
My brain is a device that can record patterns in an analog form. If they want it, they'll have to get it over my dead body ;-)
"Sockets are the standard networking API, also useful for stopping your eyes from falling onto your cheeks" zeromq.org
What if your laptop contains trade secrets or the like? Wouldn't that constitute industrial espionage to decrypt said information? What if a DHS employee has a relative who competes in that field? I can only imagine the potential messes there.
Ah, the magic words!
I reckon you could even implement gun control in the US, if you reported that peados were using guns!
Well, how do we know people didn't sneak 3.1+ oz of fluid into a secret laptop container?
Yeah, think about that one before you criticize this strategery.
These policies are playing into the hand of terrorists, they want to disrupt your economy, and that's what DHS are doing.
If America is so paranoid about this why don't they just close their borders to everyone.
FTA: "When a review is completed and no probable cause exists to keep the information, any copies of the data must be destroyed." If there is no probable cause in the first place, then how can they collect the information in the first place?
The US government - and just about any government - has always retained the right to inspect anything entering its borders - citizenship notwithstanding. This is NOTHING new. It simply applies to laptops, now. It hasn't been a privacy issue for 200+ years, and NOW we're concerned about it.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just trying to provide a little context. If you're going to complain about it, at least acknowledge a little bit of history here.
I cannot think of a single example where I would want to move sensitive data on a laptop. I may live in a sheltered world but in that world we live in the era of the Internet. If for some reason I wanted to transfer sensitive data across any border, I would think ssh would provide superior security.
Actually I can in a few minutes push quite a lot of encrypted data to four different countries. If I were physically where I wanted the data it would be even easier.
I guess this is just another example of reductions in privacy that solve no problems what so ever...
Just because the state says it's legal, doesn't make it moral. This, and asset forfeiture laws, are nothing more than a tyrannical attempt to legalize armed robbery committed by government employees. A federal agent who seizes a laptop without sufficient probable cause is no less of a criminal in a moral sense than a thug who steals it from a coffeeshop while you work or from your house. Furthermore, I'm not a betting man, but I'd bet good money that this will happen to many of the laptops stolen. Everyone who has paid attention to the state of federal law enforcement knows that increasingly, the feds just don't give a damn what the law says, like how the FBI has a serious culture of just breaking the law WRT national security letters, even after the AG has filed reports to Congress that should have shamed them into compliance.
It also stored information, in some sort of analog form I believe. Of course, gitmo+indefinitely = nothing new.
-Unresolved symbol? Byte me!
Sounds like a good way for DHS officials to get laptops, iPods, etc real cheap.
Step 1: Find someone with a laptop, iPod, etc that you'd like to have.
Step 2: Take it in the name of National Security.
Step 3: Item "gets lost" and you have a new gadget.
This is especially useful during the holidays. DHS officials can shop on the job. "Hey Frank, didn't you say your kid wanted one of those new iPods? Well look at this guy walking up now."
I wonder what, if any, protections are in place to keep this from being abused. (Any more than giving someone the power to confiscate any item of yours for little to no reason and keep it indefinitely is an abuse of power from the start.)
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
You think they don't know that it's no way to fight terrorism?
Back in Europe when strikingly similar measures were in place we used to call the implementers ``fucking Nazis``, then ``fucking Communists`` and we would often risk our life to escape and be able to live at the land of freedom, in the USA.
Then we thought the Nazis were gone and then the Communists lost too... But have they?
Isn't violent jihadists material more likely to be transmitted over the internets?
H.R.6702: To impose requirements with regard to border searches of digital electronic devices and digital storage media, and for other purposes.
Although the text hasn't been sent to the Library of Congress, HR6702 seems to be the kind of bill that would limit the power of the DHS to conduct unreasonable searches. Read the text of the bill in a few days when it becomes available, and write to your representative, etc etc. It's a shame it only has one co-sponsor.
The fact that this kind of rule may be unconstitutional means exactly nothing unless you can convince the judicial branch to rule it so, the executive branch to respect that ruling, and the legislative branch to bitchslap the executive if/when it refuses to behave.
There's at least two items in the list that I won't be holding my breath for.
Any determined terrorist would simply encrypt their data using publicly available cryptology software or simply buy a laptop or memory stick that does on-the-fly hardware encryption. This is a significant step by the government in the erosion of civil liberties.
What we really need is a new Linux distro that's just Rickrolls, goatse and 2 Girls One Cup. "Wait, officer! Don't forget these DVDs here."
My oh my
I always wanted to see America. Spend some time in a few big cities, see what the beaches are like, have a good time.
But I changed that idea a few years back, when they started trampling all over your privacy in all the little ways. There is NO WAY IN HELL I'm visiting America if I'm treated like a criminal/my privacy is being violated at will.
What I was afraid of has happened, it only got worse. Seems like they're just importing Guantanamo rules to the mainland or something.
How on earth is it possible that you Americans don't rise up against that? Protest? Get on the streets? Call out for a mass protest and let your voice be heard damned. They're getting away with it because nobody does anything about it!
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
I carry a 500gb passport of random useless data and encrypt it.
That should keep someone busy for a few weeks.
If you're not doing anything wrong I don't see the problem
That is not the issue. I think what upsets Americans most about these sort of new laws (patriot act anyone? no thanks) is that they are borderline treasonous when compared to our Constitution and Bill of Rights.
In this case, making parts of airports and border checkpoints not part of the USA is just plain underhanded & deplorable.
www.purevolume.com/martyd
and when they come for you, who will speak out? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...
Coming on the heels of the Higher Education Act, wanna bet other reasons might include "The War On Piracy"? Corporations have been allowed to infiltrate your nation's educators, so they might as well be let into the nation's gatekeepers as well, eh?
[Slashdot Comments We Liked]
work for DHS
My friends we are in a police state where the values and beliefs of personal freedom and liberty is beginning to be exposed as a fallacy (but only to those with a discerning eye).
We have lost many rights/protections and more so these rights continue to be eroded by the government in the name of patriotism,home land security and there ever undulating threat levels.
Fear has made us give up so much to governments, but at what cost.
without any suspicion of wrongdoing
The policies cover 'any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form,' including hard drives, flash drives, cell phones, iPods, pagers, beepers, and video and audio tapes. They also cover 'all papers and other written documentation,' including books, pamphlets and 'written materials commonly referred to as "pocket trash..."'
ALL PAPERS AND OTHER WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION ? so if i need to get stuff related to my corporation in to u.s., a fucktard on the border can confiscate my SENSITIVE documents, even stuff containing confidential customer information, just at will and WITHOUT SUSPICION ? WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS ?
Read radical news here
I find the term "pocket trash" to be very offensive to my hand-gathered collection of Bazooka Joe comics, Laffy Taffy jokes, and fortune cookie fortunes.
Amen.
One more crack in the wall attempt by the paranoid g00bs of the Bush administration.
There is no valid excuse for this breach of liberties. The Department of Horrible Stupidities becomes the enemy within.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
And that boys and girls, is why I won't visit your country.
Myself, and thousands (millions?) like me.
Worst part is despite the searches and seizures, they accomplish very little. You inconvenience and step all over the rights of average, law-abiding citizens to give the impression of safety.
It's not for nothing. They are not stupid, there's a very good reason for this: power. Information is power, and if they know about your data (it doesn't matter if it's something legal or not), they have power over you.
There's a hidden treasure in Python 3.x: __prepare__()
Certainly smelling that way...
Normally I seem to be one of the first people to think most of the slashdotters here knee-jerk at every issue calling it a violation of privacy rights - but this one *screams* it out. There is no other way around it - if you're not suspected of anything and there is no probable cause then they have no grounds to look through your personal items. End of story. Now, who here is willing to pay a lawyer to fight this one?
The challenge alone would be meaningless if the supreme court didn't feel like hearing the case.
They could ( and often do ) just ignore cases so they don't have to make a decision.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form? Like, any? Like, tattoos, t-shirts, a pack of card, strings of beads, cigarette papers, the color of your shoes, pictures, paintings, shopping lists ...
In the past, I haven't thought twice about taking electronics (laptop, mp3-player, palmtop) abroad. These regulations mean you basically can't count on crossing the border into the US with any of those, and would have to treat them as disposable. Instead of approaching Customs confident I've nothing to hide and won't be hassled beyond a cursory inspection, I'd have to have a backup plan for any data I want to use while in the US.
One more reason not to travel to the US, I suppose.
I can easily imagine this being used as a way to get hold of foreign companies confidential data so it can be passed on to their US competitors (as the legislation actually allows the data to be passed on to private companies). The US intelligence services have done this in the past I believe. I have vague memories about them using a radio monitoring station in the UK to eavesdrop on European companies and report back to companies in the US.
Truth, Justice and the American way - Unfortunately the first two are no longer compatible with the last.
The DHS wants my pocket trash? Well who am I to hinder their efforts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
So why is it that Obama (who I'm only lukewarm towards) isn't making more of a campaign issue over the fact that DHS -- the single largest and most expensive Government bureaucracy ever created -- is a goddamn national embarrassment. FEMA and TSA are just child organizations of this Byzantine take on Orwell.
In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
Vietnam didn't. I travelled there several times with my laptop and never had any issues.
Can somebody give me a good reason why I should not continue my personal boycott against travel to the US?
I would have to leave all my gadgetry behind at home. Absolutely appalling. It is not the fact that a seizure can happen, but that nonchalantly the authorities have the power to keep your stuff for as long as they please. Nice way to nick an iPod.
I used to go to old U.S. of A. once a year, spending a reasonable amount of money each time (hotel, plain tickets, etc.) and a few times I took stop overs in the US in my way home when visiting my family, for which uncle Sam surely derived some money as well.
I know nobody cares, but more and more people are *actively* avoiding the US when travelling.
I went to Canada instead earlier this year, and the difference could have not been starker: I was granted a visa on arrival (I am Mexican, no bloody way that would ever happen in the US, even if I was coming from Europe, as I normally do), the people are friendly and although are losing soldiers to the Taliban more than what would be reasonable to expect, they are not idiotically paranoid.
USians: when are you going to recover the essence of the goodness that your country promised when it was founded?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I can understand non-U.S. citizens. WTF is a passport for, i thought you idiots already did all my life checking before you gave me the passport. I guess i was wrong thinking being a outstanding citizen would do me any good. Whats the purpose again for being a U.S. citizen if my country treats me like a alien?
... accomplish something, if you look at it, not from the angle of terrorism, but from that of corporate intelligence.
But I'm just sayin'.
With all the lists they now use, who knows. I am reminded of the Nixon "enemies list", and can see clearly how it can apply and be so readily abused in this situation. Last time I re-entered the country I learned I was on a list! Fortunately I was only on the list for what amounted to "search and question", for about an hour, rather than, thankfully, "taser and send to Guantanamo..."
Drug seizure laws established in the 80s under Reagan allowed the Federal Government to seize property and money without proving guilt, worse your ASSETS are automatically assumed to be guilty. Yeah, the little dodge around your Constitutional rights is to assess the property as guilty because it has no rights.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
"Also, officials may share copies of the laptop's contents with other agencies and private entities for language translation, data decryption, or other reasons"
Thats the wording that got me. This means the US can take any foreign businessmans computer and turn its contents over to his most fierce competitor without mentioning it and without any wrongdoing being done by the business he represents.
Is it just me or doesnt this kind of makes it pretty risky to do business in the US? Any information the US intelligence gets their hand on can be used in business related areas, now without even a suspicion of any wrongdoings but just because they can.
This sure wont help the US economy thats for sure. If its one thing that can tank an economy its holding stale/inefficient/non innovative business up by artificial means until the bubble bursts.
HTTP/1.1 400
Truecrypt let's you access an encrypted disk based on the password you give out. So just make a disk containing useless, obvious stuff that binds to your 'fake' password. Then when asked for you to decrypt your data, give them the fake pass and still protect/hide your 'real' data. I doubt they'll be studying your laptop for long if you have some pdf files and pictures on, let's say, gardening.
WTF!?!
(Checks calendar) Sadly not April 1.
(Checks DHS website) Yup, DHS seems to be a part of the US government, which is supposed to be bound by the constitution.
(Checks constitution) Yup, 4th amendment is still there...
Any guesses on how long until the ACLU or EFF has their day in court over this? Hopefully not long, because this is bull.
If this "war on terror" crap keeps going on much longer, moving to North Korea or China might be a net increase in my freedoms. How can we possibly be trying to bring "freedom and democracy" to the world when we are so intent on limiting it here?
Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
This is going to put me off visiting the US for a long time now. The last time I flew out, I was detained for almost 3 hours by DHS - and then did sh*t all, just kept me in a room and didn't ask a single question, only to then be told it was a matter of "national security" why I got detained and that I had to apply to have that reason given to me. 2 years later, I'm still waiting.
Freakin' morons. I wouldn't trust them with some play-doh let alone my laptop and phone.
Look foreign?
Prepare to have your life sent back to the 1800's while the US government sifts through all your electronics to make sure you're not some America-bashing foreigner.
...just mail the laptop to yourself, wherever you're going?
If you're staying at a friends house, they'll hold it. If you're going to a hotel, they'll hold it. Then mail it back to yourself/family/friends on the way back home.
Inconvienient and expensive, yes, but would they search your laptop then?
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
This makes me really, really angry. The kind of angry that springs people to action.
The problem is though, it's only "news angry" aka "government angry". Fortunately, this kind of anger is usually linked to the Internet and fortunately the ADD caused by compulsive Internet use has a built in solution for this kind of anger. I just click away, something pretty distracts me and I'm not thinking about it anymore.
Besides, I'm in my bed naked on my laptop about to go watch some "Ask a Ninja" episodes after this. I feel like I should be compelled to act but I know I'm not going to. This pretty much sums up the rest of the country too. If there was a forum to post on about it I would (oh wait, I'm already there). An Internet petition? LOL right.
The only kind of action that matters is something that gets the attention of the people who can actually do something about this. And they seem to have already made their decision. I'm not about to dedicate the rest of my life to political change, there's already others doing that. They're apparently doing a crappy job, but hey, everything has ebbs and flows right?
I mean, I'm smart and resourceful, I could probably do something, but I mean, cmon, those Ask a Ninja episodes aren't going to watch themselves.
... to FBI agents with my 1024 kilobytes key :)
Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
How's this for irony:
These are Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertof's words on why Congress should place no limits on an officer's authority to confiscate laptops, and other items. Up until now, the phrase "chilling effect" was used to criticize a government's abrigement of its citizens rights. Now, this has been turned completely on its head.
An individual's rights now has a chilling effect on the poor defenseless government.
quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.
Last time I checked, we have a Democrat-controlled Senate and Congress. Surely Reid and Pelosi wouldn't let such a thing happen on their watch . . .
I wonder if we are being put on the list because of our Slashdot posts.
Wasn't there a world leader that was overthrown for subjecting his county to totalitarianism? What was that country⦠IRAQ!
The only terrorist is the US government- white supremacists bastards!
I wouldnâ(TM)t mind all this security except for the numb nut crack whores that are on the front line have no idea what they are doing. Weâ(TM)re not talking Harvard criminal justice majors or IT experts or even Terrorism experts. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MINIMAL WAGE G.E.D graduated MORONS. Really what is the entry exam for an airport security officer? Remember the Government hires people looking for jobs with benefits not career potential.
God bless America...and make it quick.
www.truecrypt.com
Go, and encrypt ye storage, yon throngs.
Colin Dean Go a year without DRM
It didn't take Senator Feingold long to announce that he's working on legislation to mitigate the search policy. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/content/article/2008/08/01/laptops.html)
One other note: any terrorist who wants to sneak information or applications into the US is not going to carry it through a border checkpoint. If they're that terminally stupid, they're probably a plant carrying false information. The only reason drug dealers and coyotes (human smugglers) cross the border with their cargo is because their cargo consists of physical objects. There are much easier ways to get digital files into the US.
TLR
A man no more knows his destiny than a tea leaf knows the history of the East India Company
It's not like there's some LAW that protects your personal effects against unreasonable searches and seizures or anything. Geez what are you guys, a bunch of terrorist-lovers?
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
And if all the world turns against you from a privacy standpoint, which might happen, then look at obfuscation as well as encryption techniques.
If you want privacy, then *you* have to make it happen. Don't expect, ever, others to implement your privacy for you.
Because there are 10,000 ways of sending confidential, encrypted data across national borders using little known tools such as... the internet!
Not to mention thumb-drives that are becoming pinky-drives.
Not to mention relatively strong and free data encryption.
My greatest gripe with this kind of decision, though, is not its inefficiency -- but rather, the precedent it opens. Coincidentally, my homepage yesterday had the following "thought of the day":
Think about that.
Quem a paca cara compra, paca cara pagará.
It's called the "border search exception" to the 4th amendment, and it has always been in place.
Quoth the Wikipedia:
And according to the Yale Law Journal (Apr. 1968):
I still contend that this is a simple case of an inch equaling a mile. Now they can take your electronics/personal effects and keep them as long as they want. The next reasonable step is to search your house and take your computers from your mother's basement to investigate as long as they want. After all, what is really the difference here?
Oh- it's only for those people coming into the country! How long do you think it will be before they expand it to include anyone regardless of their activity? Doesn't it make (government) sense that if people flying into the country are possibly transporting harmful data- people in the general population are as well?
We step closer to 1984 inch by inch- mile by mile.
They could require everyone to submit all backups of all data to a government clearinghouse in the name of "national security" and you would be surprised at how many people would willingly support it- because people will do anything in the name of safety.
I doubt that it makes us safer- but it does make us more like sheep.
xxxxxxxxxx
It's your mess. YOU clean it up!
Don't worry, your mobile devices are valuable enough even without anything on them.
what would happen to people who have implanted rfid chips.... (not that they currently check for this)
Non sequitur: Your facts are uncoordinated.
Hmmm.
This little tidbit seems to explicitly prohibit this:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
Of course, the current administration seems to like to use the Constitution for toilet paper, anyway.
But I would expect a challenge to this ruling on the basis that it violates the spirit and the letter of the 4th amendment.
there are 3 kinds of people:
* those who can count
* those who can't
Since the border search statute was enacted in 1789, customs officials have been authorized to stop and examine any vehicle, person, or baggage arriving in the United States on suspicion that merchandise is concealed which is subject to duty or which cannot be legally imported into the United States.
stop, and examine and ON suspicion. not confiscate WITHOUT suspicion.
Read radical news here
In this case, making parts of airports and border checkpoints not part of the USA is just plain underhanded & deplorable.
If it is not a part of the USA, what jurisdiction do they have?
-- I care not for your foolish signatures.
Two points here really
1.) What gives DHS the right to decalre they have such power. Does simply proclaiming they have that power give them that power ?
2.) Are these guys so naive that they don't realise that I can store Gigabytes of data on a micro-SD card which is all but indectable if I really wish to hide it (Hell, it will fit under a fingernail !) Why would I risk having them find it in my laptop ?
I can't imagine them keeping your laptop if you just given them your hard drive. Anybody should have backups of your important material anyways, though I will admit I also bring an external HD on international trips which partially serves as a backup device. Can anybody think of a reasonable argument they keep your laptop if you just hand them the HD?
And more seriously, as others have noted too, it is mostly to the inconvenience of all of us, the real malicious ones have far more clever ways to hide material in innocent looking devices and files. It's not hard, i've seen that covered on slashdot before. And obscurity is often a far more effective way to hide things than security!
My buddy just ran in to this when returning from Grand Cayman. He and his wife went there for a week vacation and had a blast only to get screwed in Newark, NJ when they got back. My buddy has a full Irish background and his family has lived in the US for four generations. Because his full name some how matches that of a person suspected of terrorism associated with the IRA, he got detained and they took his laptop with no expected return date. One good thing came out of it though. Since the family laptop (doubles as the house computer too) is now gone for a while. We are building a new gaming rig so he can get back on WOW. Our guild misses him.
If the US gov't has authority to make (create?) these interim areas to skirt around our domestic laws, on what authority can these government agents operate? That's not rhetorical; I really don't know.
www.purevolume.com/martyd
one thing is for sure, the DHS office will have one hell of a porn collection....
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
Things are building up. I tried to deny it for a while now, but too many things are starting to fall together to complete the conspiracy nuts' theories.
Week by week it seems more curbs are put on our freedoms. That is not how this country is supposed to work. The politicians are out of touch with the spirit of the nation, and the People have become too apathetic to notice.
I am honestly starting to believe that in my lifetime there could very well be a new American Civil War. Guerrilla warfare seems to be in vogue so I imagine it will be drawn out and bloody, with a lot more tragedy than is strictly necessary.
As the Boy Scouts say, Be Prepared. If you're a pacifist get some first aid training. Everyone else, be ready to defend yourselves.
Just be sure you don't fire first. Make *them* cross the threshold. I know its wishful thinking, as someone will do something dreadfully stupid. Just be sure to take care of yourselves when the time comes.
Longer? That implies that the laptop is coming back and that "Bob the DHS border guard" didn't just give his girlfriend a shiny new macbook for their recent anniversary.
Indefinitely in this case might as well often mean "forever"
Since your brain can be (and for most people, is) used as storage, they could take you, and/or your children (you could have told them to remember something for you) to a DHS facility for their mind probe. This is getting insane, what happened to our rights. This is worse than George Orwell could have imagined.
Every time you call tech support, a little kitten dies.
The fifth amendment to the constitution provides that government taking of property, including temporary taking, requires fair market compensation to the owner. The routine examination for explosives at an airport security check would not require payment, but an extended taking of an electronic device, without individual suspicion, should require a payment of fair market rental value.
I think the government is just trying to redo the American landscape whilst at the same time attempting to reduce demolition costs.
They're pissing everyone off, just asking for more planes and bombs in buildings.
McCain anyone?
Multi-gig USB thumbdrives drives are dirt cheap. Always carry a flash drive with a gigabyte of /dev/urandom output encrypted using whatever secure mechanism you'd like (the more variety the better).
Fill the warehouses of the useless waste that is DHS with work.
This isn't about inspection. If some DHS guy wants to give my laptop the once-over, well enough. If he wants to take away for an "indefinite" time, hell no!
The problem is that they can confiscate your stuff indefinitely whether you're doing anything wrong or not! That only inconveniences YOU - you suffer because your property has gone into the black hole of bureaucracy, probably never to be seen again. Imagine if you had a lot of important work saved on a hard drive, or were on your way to a business meeting, or just had a lot of sensitive personal data stored - you cannot retrieve all of that. You'd be out of pocket, possibly out of a job for losing that data. Plus you'd have to buy a new laptop to recreate that data - you lose twice! They don't need to suspect you've done anything wrong, they can just do it randomly to make everyone FEAR the system. It's purely designed to make more docile, malleable and controllable citizens and not to protect anyone from anything.
The saddest thing I've ever seen was an American in line at security in an Australian airport. The security there is still at a reasonable level (none of this removing shoes/belts/liquids policy), but this old guy was struggling (he looked quite elderly and frail) to bend down to take his shoes off - without even being asked to do so. He's been brainwashed into thinking that this makes him more secure, when all it really does is make him more oppressed.
We're being treated like untermenschen. The war is definitely on - 99 percent of the world's population have already been branded 'terrorist' and therefore termination is acceptable. The only people not in the wealthy 1 percent who argue in favour of this are in collusion to save their own asses, but they will have to answer for that crime one day when the 'elites' are eradicated and we're all truly free. So now is the time to choose your side - the side of human rights, or the side of bloodsucking corporatism.
for some reason the trews' song "paranoid freaks" comes to mind. i play it every time i cross the border, be it on my mp3 player, laptop, or the car stereo.
fitting. security word for this post is "escapees"
This ruling basically means that they can take anything they like, for as long as they like and you have no expectation of ever getting it back.
So far, they have stopped short of cutting off people's heads, to examine the contents of their brain. No doubt when the technology to dothis gets developed, not even your thoughts will be safe.
So we're left with either holding sensitive date online (just wait until that gets eavesdropped, scanned and impounded - I'm counting the days) or keeping it in your head.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
America is more and more becoming like China. I hope I am wrong, but since September 11 all the news I read is pointing towards it.
My 2c. Good luck Americans.
I just don't trust anything that bleeds for five days and doesn't die.
Those are the most dangerous words in the modern world. And our government gleefully uses them against us.
Freedom failed.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
This statement:
should automatically void your voter registration and require that you take a high school civics class before re-registering.
If they're allowed to take valuable and necessary equipment for no particular reason can we invoice the US Government for a daily fee to cover the cost of rental replacement of the equipment in question?
"Oh, you want to take that notebook? Well it's going to cost you $150 per day. Sign this invoice and I'll turn it over."
Yeah, that's going to happen.
And how much of this stuff is going to get 'lost' while in government custody? Will there be weekly reports on the status and exact location so that the true owner can track and potentially retrieve their investment once the government is done ham-fistedly pounding the keys?
Send letters to your Congresscritters!
And speaking of Congresscritters, does this apply to them as well? Will they have the prospect of having their personal equipment confiscated and searched? If not, then neither should we.
Seems to me this is the perfect place for the $100 laptops discussed here a couple of days ago. Buy a blank laptop to take across the border (whichever way) and if the DHS takes it, it is only a small (relatively) loss. Then use the net to load up what you need.
I find all of this very frustrating. Not because I have anything in particular to protect (indeed, I can think of very little that is that important that I would object to a reasonable law enforcement official taking a look at it), but because of whats happened to us in just under seven years.
The agenda of the terrorist is -not- particularly to kill people, it's to get their agenda into the front of your mind and to encourage you to bend to their point of view in order to stop the pain. Now, it so happens that killing people does that quite well, but just how many times in the past seven years were -you- affected directly by a terrorist, and how many times were you affected by the window-shopping measures put in place to "protect us from terrorism"? Every time we lose another liberty, the terrorists get another point....not to mention the number of very dubious practices that we accept now in our day to day lives because they allegedly make us safer.
I'm tired of this. Security and protection of the populace is done in back rooms with a low profile, not by folks with machine guns stomping around in airports for PR purposes while punters shuffle, barefoot and half naked, through some electronic gizmo that is then monitored by a human being with a statistically proven error rate in the order of 5% while wondering if they're going to be allowed to keep their own property when they get to the other end.
I feel a dammed sight safer flying through a European aiport than any US one, that's for sure although europeans are starting to succumb to the 'visible security' mantra now....I saw a great case of this yesterday - one lane in three through security at the airport had an electronic explosives sniffer, the other two had conventional scanners....trouble is, you get to chose which queue you join!!!
We seem to have lost the understanding that you don't have to knacker peoples rights to have a good level of protection. We need to stop helping people with abhorrent agendas keeping them in the front of our minds, and the best way to do that is to stop eroding hard earned freedoms in the name of terrorism protection.
Memo for All Terrorist visiting the USA:
Do not carry terrorism plans in digital files. Use internet mail to send to Ciberspace. And use cibercafes on the target (USA) to download such files.
Best regards,
Counter-counter-terrorist Unit
Though I am in South Africa, not America.
I was dating a girl in Brazil (I married her later) and my company had several major projects in Nigeria. So I had regular flights to both countries (and both are common drug routes around here). Add to this long hair and a liking for heavy-metal t-shirts - I ended up on a watch list (nobody would confirm this but it became pretty obvious).
On my way out to see my girlfriend one time, I was searched on the plane (which they made late to do it) but my luggage was already in the hold and my hand luggage clean so they couldn't really finish the search.
When I came back, I was arrested on site. My bags were searched and I had to explain almost every item. Not the easiest of those was a bottle of home-made spirit-vinegar I bought in a small country town in Brazil as a gift for my mother. Finally, convinced my luggage was clean (now I am already two hours late, my cellphone isn't charged and I cannot even contact my ride who is waiting outside the door for me) they decide I need to be X-rayed in case I swallowed condoms.
So I wait. I finally convince the cop to at least let me talk to the person who is picking me up (my boss) - with him coming along, so three hours later my boss gets to find out why I didn't show (lucky for me - he was still there). We wait for another 2 hours. Meantime I am missing a major business deadline (which would end up costing me a small fortune) but me and my boss are talking shop about the various projects.
Still the police who are supposed to take me to the state hospital for X-rays haven't shown up. Finally the border-cop (who has been hearing us talk all this time) says: "I'm gonna let you go - I'm sure you're clean now but we have to be sure and if I keep you any longer I'm going to start running risk of false arrest complaints."
As he uncuffs me and I walk away I asked him: "So will you take my name OFF your watchlist now ?"
Him: "Who said your name was on a watchlist ?"
Me: "You picked me up at passport control by my name and face. You tried to search me on the way out as well. You kept me here for almost 5 hours while all the random screen cases were gone in 30 minutes, despite the fact that I was the only one who wasn't complaining and shouting at you for the annoyance and understood you are just doing your job. I know my regular flights include two well known drug routes over a three year period... you didn't have to SAY I'm on a watchlist - it's obvious."
He didn't say anything. I dropped it after that, didn't feel like more hassle but I must tell you it was one of the most annoying experiences of my life.
And the worst thing: planes always upset my stomach. I have no idea if this is because of the airline food or the airpressure but it does. Getting of that plane, the first thing I wanted to do was go to the little boys room for a little private meditation. I wasn't allowed to go to the loo (in case I flushed the evidence of swallowed drugs) - and I had to hold it in for five painful hours. I must tell you - many times during that wasted day I was tempted to just let it go, and leave them the mess to clean up.
Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
Officers may not read or permit others to read correspondence contained in sealed letter class mail (the international equivalent of First Class) without an appropriate search warrant or consent. Only articles in the postal system are deemed "mail." Letters carried by individuals or private carriers such as DHL, UPS, or Federal Express, for example, are not considered to be mail, even if they are stamped, and thus are subject to a border search as provided in this policy.
IANAL. Does this mean I could seal a flashdrive in a letter-class envelope, put a US Mail stamp on it, and they would need a court order to unseal it?
In any case, it's an interesting clause in the regulations. Why is sealed mail treated with a higher standard of privacy than other forms of communication? Historical reasons only?
"We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
...and travel for leisure until they return to a state of "Rechtsstaat". You (the americans) told us germans after WW II the rules to which the american governments at least since Ronald Reagan are refraining to adhere more and more.
- capital punishment ...
- Guantanmo
- DHS / Immigration behavior
- ignorance to international law
- Unilateralism
-
Let's have a look what B.O. will do (or whoever will be elected/bought)
CU
Stay the f*** out of the USA. I have made it a point that I will never visit the US. Anything that I need to do business or otherwise with folks in the US can be done via teleconferencing. Seriously, who needs this hassle, who needs to live in fear of having your privacy invaded to such an extreme? Once people stop coming to the US they will start to feel the pinch.
For me, one of the main selling points of the EEE and its recent ilk is not their small size, but their low cost, so that it's not unrealistic to have an entirely separate machine for travelling around. One which can be kept mostly empty and is almost dispossable; just enough for downloading photos from my camera and doing a bit of email and web-surfing. (Which is one of the reasons I don't entirely understand the drive behind the more expensive, higher-spec versions which have been coming out.)
Simpsons quote aside, that was basically my first thought. "Well if they're going to make it so difficult to get back in, I'll just never travel."
Then I thought that that's probably what they want. They want obedient, mindless sheeple. They don't want us venturing out and learning about the world and putting money into the economy of other countries. They want us to stay at home and not think and spend all our money here.
Wonder how hard it is to become a Canadian citizen...
"That's a nice tattoo you got there, sir..."
"But it's a birthmark! ... why are you looking at me like that with a scalpel in your hand?"
This signature intentionally left unblank.
unreasonable searches and seizures
Searches at the border are legally reasonable. This has been held for a very very long time.
Sure, and in fact I agree that searches at the border are reasonable. Seizure (without cause) is not. Copying is even less reasonable, and I suspect is on very dubious grounds legally. Copyright treaties apply internationally. Anyone want to tell the MPAA and RIAA that border guards now have the authority to copy their stuff?
Seriously, fuckers, stop visiting the US. It only encourages them. I went there regularly, tapering off to 2004 a few months before they forced UK visitors to do the iris/fingerprint thing. Anyone wishing to employ me (works both ways, lads!) must now agree not to send me to the USA.
Shame, really, as I adore the country. But it's been decades since all y'all got to the stage where the 2nd amendment offers no protection against a tyranical government. The only hope is for the military to refuse to follow any orders from its CiC that run contrary to the Constitution (it happens, in nations living in more interesting times...).
Does it specify "electronic device"? I thought it was just "device", capable of storing digital or analog data. If they wanted to push it, that could include your credit cards or anything else with a magnetic strip or embedded microchip.
I've always wondered how much of this is just smoke and mirrors. I'm not arguing legality, but rather, I am arguing motive here. What I'm suggesting is maybe they put out threats like this to scare people more than anything. The threat of retaliation can sometimes be just as effective as retaliation itself. The statistics that may prove this point, of course, is the number of laptops actually confiscated for an indefinite amount of time.
So much for this:
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
We've got to stop all of those terrorists from blowing up buildings and kiling kittens with data. Because lord knows that terrorists can't figure out how to email or FTP data across a border. If data is this dangerous, they should stop all international communications. That next email you get might be a terrorist bomb!
Real programmers use "copy con program.exe"
Why does this policy reek of MAFIAA influence?
the mention of "or analogue" pretty much clinches it to me.
whether through bits on flash or through punch chards, computer readable data has always been digital, represented discretely (analogue is analogue because it is not measured discretely)
it's obvious they're referring to MAFIAA 'media' here, I don't see any other reasonable interpretation of that statement.
We now know where the idea of border search and seizure of ipods and laptops came from in ACTA. It's already here.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
This happened to me and i just swallowed my thumb drive right in front of them. *GULP*
Alright American's heres how it is: You have always looked at us, Canadians as like your younger brother. Its always sad when the younger brother has to hold an intervention for the older brother. Your starting to wig me out here bro, I want to come and visit you without thinking your going to jack my ipod to pay for your addiction (oil) your other friends are worried too. Mexico always looked up to you but now even he's worried for you, I know you and Mom (england) have a weird relationship but even she is worried. Please sort yourself out bro, I want to hang out with you again. I want our governments to get along again. I want to go pick on the smaller nations with you again, but not till you start seeing reason. Thanks, eh Canada
-Ours is the wisdom of Solomon, the magic of Merlyn, the fall of Icaris.
Sealed Letter Class Mail. Officers may not read or permit others to read correspondence contained in sealed letter class mail (the international equivalent of First Class) without an appropriate search warrant or consent. Only articles in the postal system are deemed "mail." Letters carried by individuals or private carriers such as DHL, UPS, or Federal Express, for example, are not considered to be mail, even if they are stamped, and thus are subject to a border search as provided in this policy.
So, yeah...unless you send your laptop USPS (Worst carrier. Ever.), it's not safe from the authority granted in this policy.
Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure everything I just said is completely wrong.
People will simply stop comming to that country anymore, i see littel reason to support such a country by visiting it and be bringing my hard-earned Euroes into their hands.
Im at the risk of being stolen from, killed by the goverment, detained for indefenetley or herashed by a number of goverment agencies whoms names i can't even pronounce.
I consider myself to be an intelektual being with a lot of knowledge and skill, i respect others and beleive that i deserve the same respectfull treatment.
At the moment USA and it's goverment (and yes ... the rest of the world se's USA and it's citizens as a whole ... so your govements mistakes is your mistakes ... after all just about 50% of you voted for that retarded monkey who calls the shots not) are doing nothing to attract me and a hell of a lot to detract me.
Conclusion: I stay away, together with a lot of even-minded potential cash-cows for the country.
Not my problem, i just take my holliday in Dubai or some similare country ...
Now, this is unreasonable search and seizure. There needs to be a constitutional challenge to this because it is unreasonable to take and search someone's laptop with no evidence, let alone suspicion of wrong doing.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Laptops and drives still fit in diplomatic pouches and are not subject to steerage class searches, I've come to the conclusion that all of my data should be network accessible and my laptop is very nearly a 'fresh' build when travelling; my employers rules are very specific, I am not to share/reveal/disclose, I am responsible for keeping the drive encrypted and I am subject to termination if I reveal the decryption mechanism/keys to unauthorized individuals. Strangely enough these rules are all at the insistance of the same government now doing these searches..... Papers please indeed.
Also very odd, if I place the data on a drive and ship it in advance both ways its subject to customs but not DHS; customs can play the same tricks (somewhat) but you are more likely not to encounter some 4.25 an hour disgruntled lets have some fun with the guy with the laptop by taking his precious away if you ship your gear separately.
Unix, an obscure operating system developed by bored researchers in an attempt to get a better game playing experience.
I've been in the military for 21 years now, partly because I love our Constitution and believe that somebody has to be willing to sacrifice for its defense. I've also been a Republican for my adult voting life. However, it's events like this that make me question both situations. The Right will let me keep my firearms, but will steal my computer. The Left will let me keep my computer, but will steal my firearms. What is a reasonable person to do these days????
Cheka,GPU,NKVD,MVD,KGB,Stasi,Mossad,PVDE,Gestapo,frumentarii,
Pick a time,pick a country,they all have them,they all destroy.
We now have the DHS.
They will destroy just like all their predecessors.
As I'm sure many have already surmised, this is nothing more than a massive waste of time to provide the more ignorant of the citizenry with a bubble-thin illusion of security. And the really sad part is that anyone with an iota of know-how can get data into or out of the country relatively easily. Does no one at DHS think that the bad guys would stay informed of laws like this? Are they going to start opening all packages coming into the U.S. as well, under the guise of "protecting" us from the terrorists? My best friend works for a large company as a software engineer. He is contracted out to a defense contractor at the moment, working on a highly classified project. And his work has provided him with a laptop. Do they get to sieze that as well, ITAR clearances notwithstanding?
"What I cary in this box is your utter subjugation."
I haven't even been given a hard time the various times I've flown with firearms and LIVE ammunition.
Some suggestions:
1. Don't fly to/from some of the more gun-phobic areas. NYC, Chicago, and Washington DC are the biggest ones I've heard. I've even flown into NY with a rifle no problem(went hunting with my dad and grandfather). Note: this was outside NYC, during hunting season, with a scoped lever-action 30-30.
2. Ammunition should be in origional packaging. The actual rule is more or less that ammunition shall not be loose or loaded into a magazine. Still, I've heard of problems with the aftermarket plastic ones reloaders are fond of. Reloaders - I'm sure you have some commercial boxes around. Stuff your custom rounds in there.
3. Case must be hardsided, and in a departure from normal TSA rules, must be LOCKABLE. NOTE: TSA doesn't make a deal out of this, but TSA locks are actually illegal/violate policy. The law predates 9/11 and the TSA, and the OWNER is the only one supposed to know the combo or possess a key to the case. TSA locks have the overide - so it'd violate the policy.
4. Shouldn't have to mention this, but the gun must be unloaded. I normally either pull the bolt/remove the slide. Or have the slide pulled back with the chamber up. Ammunition should be in a different bag.
5. On check in declare to the agent 'I need to declare a firearm'. I personally want to get the declare out first so they don't think I'm threatening them or anything. There's a form you sign and stuff in the case that says the firearm is unloaded. Then you take it to the TSAs, they should recognize a gun case and inspect it right there, then you lock it up, and it goes on.
I have flown with: .30-30 - lever action rifle
CZ75BD - 9mm semiautomatic handgun, multiple times.
Marlin
Remington 7mm - bolt action rifle
M1 Garand - WWII Battle rifle, semi-automatic internal magazine
Colt M16A2 - assault rifle, with 'da switch'. Government owned.
I call this the 'good neighbor policy'. You don't be a dick unnessesarily and you'll find life much smoother. Applies with pretty much anybody, not just TSA and police.
I frequently fly with a full size laptop, portable HD, and memory stick. Never been hassled beyond the standard 'put computer in bin, take shoes off, put in bin, run everything through the machine'. Been in the blow machine a few times. Have been surprised that I didn't set it off(very active shooter).
I still think that the TSA needs to be dialed back a few notches - I might consider flying a bit more often then. As is, I'll only fly for emergencies(like my grandmother dying), or work.
I don't read AC A human right
What we are witnessing is a combination of Wells' 1984 and Huxley's A Brave New World. The government has been moving to a police state for years, most Americans do not see this because they do not care about what is going on outside of their bubble.
I cut it three times, and it's still too short.
No it's not. Way before 9/11 it wasn't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search
I find being offended by me offensive.
how many actual real "terrorists" have they caught by taking their papers/pda/music player/laptop etc. at the border?
Not that many I suspect or they'd be bleating about it all over the news saying how good it is they have these draconican measures in place to "protect" America's inhabitants.
To do something right, you often have to roll up your sleeves and get busy.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
From the New Hampshire consitution (1784):
Article 10
"Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security, of the whole community, and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind."
It's not just that people don't talk like this any more but don't have the balls to act like it either (or are just too addicted to nonsense like American Idol). Being a good American means being responsible for your country; not bending over when an oppressive govt says to.
Like to move to NH and get active? Try www.freestateproject.org
Take you laptop's hard drive out and put it in another bag. You can claim that your laptop's broken when they try to boot it and can't. Or just stick a small hard drive in with a fresh installation of the OS and no personal data whatsoever.
Sure, you'll be down a laptop when they take it, but I'm sure border guards are too stupid to recognize a hard drive in another bag, so you can just stick your drive in a spare machine until you get your laptop back (if you get it back).
I support the Center for Consumer Freedom
The right to bear firearms is constitutionally protected. Thats completely logical, because millions of people die in laptop-related incidents every year. Compared to laptops handguns are practically harmless. Right ?
Now the world has gone to bed, Darkness won't engulf my head, I can see by infra-red, How I hate the night.
I saw a comic strip a couple of years ago (I wish I could find a link to give credit) that seems very apt. It was just one panel, and in it an Uncle Sam character is at the gift wrapping counter at a store and there's a box on the counter labelled "New Law" and the guy behind the counter is asking how he wants that wrapped. He's got two types of paper "Protect the Children" and "War on Terror." How the fsck did we end up here?
Jealously hoarding mod points since 2007.
Saying it's so doesn't make it so.
Saying "we're not doing anything wrong when we break every rule which applies to everyone else" is not going to fly.
Requiem for the American Dream
Looks to me like the 'terrorists' (if they actually exist) have acheived their goal.
The quality of life of every American (and now anyone even visiting your stupid country or living in a country whose government is capable of being worried by the USA's overreactions) has been changed beyond recognition. Good effort.
Requiem for the American Dream
The US is going to typically waste the time of innocent people, while the bad guys will figure out common sense workarounds (such as remote storage) and won't ever be bothered.
Congrats, I'm sure all US citizens feel much safer now.
Would a USB drive, let's say carried in suppository form, set off the metal detectors?
"There are no facts, only interpretations." --Friedrich Nietzsche.
Congress has always allowed a huge amount of discretion to the the executive branch when it comes to border security. The good reasons for this are obvious.
Nevertheless, Congress can always slam limits down on that discretion.
If "Homeland" security goes too far, and angers too many citizens, then Congress will change the rules of the game. It will be interesting to see what happens with this.
Since credit cards have that magnetic strip, terrorists could make some fake cards with info in the strip or rewrite the strip on valid cards. That means the only way we'll be safe is if DHS takes our cards and tests them out by purchasing gifts for themselves. They better check my $20 also. I may have scribbled instructions and deactivation password for my doomsday device.
Since it appears we now live in a police state, don't take any laptops across any border.. Now when they start doing this elsewhere, then they can pry my laptop from my cold dead fingers...
THANK YOU, Edward Snowden!! Americans owe you a debt of gratitude (whether they know it or not..)
What about an iPhone? A N800? Hell, any phone can store data.
And they'll take a fucking parsec. There's long been an understanding that searches (without warrant or probable cause) at the border are legitimate and do not violate the Fourth Amendment. However, I don't think any court has ruled that the border search power is unlimited, and certainly doesn't extend to indefinite seizure of anything which might hold information.
Of course, DHS isn't totally dumb. They are going to be very careful to use this only on people who are unable to put up a fight (which probably includes you and me), allowing them to maintain their policy without court issues. The courts will likely help by denying standing for various excuses.
I guess confiscating laptops could be part of a government conspiracy to save money. If they no longer have to purchase laptops they have that much more money to spend on their other toys!
Curious about Storage and Virtualization? Check out
Guess I'll have to start using a 100 dollar laptop (when they are available) while I travel and just bring a usb key to store data for my photos and such. Since most people are probably more interested in using internet to upload photos and write emails while they are travelling outside of the country, this may be a solution for some. I do acknowledge though, not for all.
my mom posts on slashdot.
God must be busy.
that millions of average Americans cheered these actions of the government, because they saw the anti-war protestors as troublemakers and traitors.
The belief in compliance and obedience to authority runs so deep in a large part of the population that violent repression would be very popular.
I was alive at the time of the Kent/Jackson shootings, and believe me, a lot of people were very happy that the protestors were finally "getting what they deserve"
The irony of it all is that their increased security will add more problems than solutions. This is theft by the government. I think somewhere this violates the Constitution: Unnecessary seizures.
Ages ago, the US had truly bizarre laws about not moving encryption software (basically, you couldn't move any software that handled a key greater than a certain length out of the country. You could use such software in the US, you could use it outside the US, you could move it into the US, but you couldn't move it out).
A large international organization I used to work for, which wanted to obey the law scrupulously, had software on its laptops that would delete all encryption software at the touch of a button when leaving the US. When your plane landed in Europe, you'd hit another button and download the relevant .exe files back onto your laptop (from a non-US server).
There were plans to add GPS to automate this process, but this was back in the old days and it wasn't practical.
Ah, the vast waste of effort.
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
What most US citizens don't realize is that your 4th Amendment Rights - all of your Constitutional Rights - don't kick in until you are actually on US soil. That means you have to get through Customs first. So, legally, until you are released from Customs, you are not covered by the Constitutional protections many of you claim the DHS is violating.
I know this is an Alice in Wonderland-esque parsing of the rules, but it is a fact. You are not *in* the US until Customs lets you pass. The alternative is to go back into the country where you are coming from (let's say, Canada), head to a US embassy (which is US soil), and then file a complaint about your treatment at the border. It isn't likely to get much traction, but at least once you are on the embassy compound grounds, you are a US citizen again with full Constitutional rights.
Haven't you ever wondered how the Customs people are able to tear apart cars looking for drugs and illegal aliens without a court order?
"Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
But, if you are not in the US, under what authority are they acting?
Entering the US from Canada there is a Canadian law which requires that you tell the truth to US customs officers because you pass through US customs while still in Canada. While you may voluntarily surrender your laptop for them to search you have the legal right to withdraw from the process at any point without any repercussion other than you will not be allowed into the US (possibly ever again!).
Since moving to Canada I've found entering the US far more reasonable. The US immigration and security in Canada seem to be extremely competent (and even friendly sometimes!). Far more so than those I used to encounter when flying to the US from Europe (perhaps a little of Canada is rubbing off on them?). In addition to that I very much like the balance it strikes: you have to tell the truth, they get to set whatever rules and procedures they like to protect their country and if you find that too objectionable you get to chose not to comply but then not enter the US. Seems like a sensible compromise.
Is it embarrassing enough to make Ron Paul look good yet?
I don't know if it has good PPTP and Ipsec VPN clients, but an Eee PC or the equivalent, with no local writable storage and 1 or 2G more RAM, would be perfect for assignment to international travelers. The less crap you have on your PC, the faster it can be searched and returned, and the less opportunity for clueless employees to get caught.
I am assuming, or course, that laptops will be confiscated in good faith and not with the intention of giving them as Christmas presents to children of DHS lackeys.
The 4th Amendment applies to EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE!
No it does not. Like the rest of your constitution it applies ONLY to the US government(s) and restricts the laws which they can pass. It does not restrict the laws of other governments. Hence it cannot possibly be said to apply to everyone, everywhere.
I've been wondering if the reason why we have the department of Homeland security was because motherland and fatherland were already taken by countries (and their governments of the time) that were our enemies.
America is my country. America is my nation. I don't see America as a "homeland". It just hasn't been around long enough for that. We don't have the folklore or mythos to justify homeland. We don't have a "cultural story", we have a brief history. Our beginning is not legendary or mythic.
Why not call it department of national security? Why do we need the happy warm fuzzy bellyfeel Homeland?
Why is it better to defend our homeland than to defend our nation? I suppose "nation" implies a rule of law and reason while "homeland" panders to gut reaction and emotion, so it would be ok to defend the homeland in a kneejerk manner while the repercussions for defending your nation would have to be considered.
Privacy and freedom: get over it. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights: bad prognosis, but trying to survive in hiding until January 20, 2009.
If you want to understand how leaders like Stalin and Hitler got so many millions of people to follow them and built up such powerful "security" forces, you don't have to look outside the borders of the US. Just picture Dick Cheney in an SS uniform.
Benjamin Franklin said:
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." and "There never was a good war or a bad peace."
And that was in a time of Revolutionary change. To bad today's politicos aren't listening and today's citizens are not echoing.
IANAL but if you have confidential client data on the laptop and they seize to search, aren't they violating the HIPPA laws?
If you had a clue, you would know that the Dems have a razor-thin majority in the Senate and too small a majority in the House to override vetoes. The Repubs have taken full advantage of this fact by using filibusters and other tactics to tie things in knots and shoot down just about any legislation they don't like.
Not that the Dems are angels, but even if they were they couldn't fix this without full Republican cooperation.
No sig? Sigh...
Hi,
perhaps we could use amazon s3, cross the border and then download it. but it's quite expensive given my collection of mp3s...
'Back in the day' when cell phones first came out and were the size of bricks a chap I know started a business at the local airport where he would rent out cell phones to arriving business travelers. Well costs came down and the business died.
However, with these new regulations it just might be a good idea to start renting clean, laptops, cell phones and cameras to business travelers. Of course you would also have access to high speed lines so that the could be loaded with the data from the home office.
Then again you might be considered as "aiding and abetting TERRORISTS!!!!!!" by the DHS.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
What you say likely holds true for white people though. But if you arent white, even if you are super nice and cooperate, you get treated like a roach by the TSA.
"Border" searches include people who have not departed the U.S. Depending where you travel in the U.S. DHS still stops people and searches them for not leaving the country.
Same thing happens between San Diego and L.A. there are DHS checkpoints on I-5 and I-15 which are 40 miles from the international border.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004364797_ferrypatrol22m.html
and
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2008/07/02/immigration_checks_on_ferry_runs_irk_locals/
"A couple of months ago, the U.S. Border Patrol began occasional "spot checks" of every vehicle and passenger arriving in Anacortes off state ferries, the lifeline between these islands and the mainland. ... In the islands' coffee shops and the editorial pages of the local paper, then in a crowded, heated meeting last month, a number of people have complained that islanders are being unfairly treated and questioned, even though they haven't left the country and normally wouldn't be subject to such scrutiny. ... The Border Patrol responds that the stops are annoying but necessary, the cost of keeping the country safe. It maintains that a terrorist could easily use the same maze of waterways and islands here that for generations has harbored smugglers, rumrunners and drug dealers. ... San Juan Islanders are used to customs inspections in Anacortes if they take the ferry that comes from Sidney, B.C. Before now, though, they were never subjected to checks on domestic ferry runs.
That changed in February, when federal agents started corralling everyone off domestic ferries into a fenced-off area in Anacortes and questioning them about their citizenship. It now happens once, maybe twice a week; no one has any way to know if they will be stopped."
WELCOME TO AMERIKA, BTW nice I-phone.....
I don't see how this hurts anyone else's freedom. Does this even affect you if you're not a Muslim involved in a family dispute? And if you're a member of a Muslim family but you are not a Muslim, does it even apply to you?
U.S. Government Collaboration With Industrial Espionage.
Gee, what a fucking surprise. At least they used to be more subtle about it.
But how can I smuggle my record collection?
Ok here's an idea, someone setup "Rent a Laptop" in the baggage collection section the airports - while you are at your destination you can rent one of these, Get your pictures and movies and what ever.
As an extra service: The laptop has strong encryption installed - before you turn it back in at departure you encrypt your stuff and fill in a text file with contact information. While you are flying home the laptop landords are sending you the encrypted file. Then they wipe the machine for the next person. You can also send the data yourself of course and even wipe the machine yourself (It's ok to turn in a blank-disked laptop)
Mail. Order. YEAH! (With no apologies to Steve Ballmer.)
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
I'm not seeing a lot of people arguing against the searching itself. While inconvenient and arguably not especially effective the way DHS has chosen to implement them, I think that a reasonable person could see where border searches are a good idea. The ideal, I hope, is that the DHS agents are trying to answer some important questions. "Are those illegal drugs that we don't allow in our country?", "Is that an explosive device?", "Is that some kind of toxin that you're going to use to attack our citizens?", and other similar questions that should be driving each and every search. Though there's a case to be made that this doesn't happen in practice let's ignore that tangent for now. I think the real sticking point for a lot of posters here seems to be the fact that something like a laptop can simply be taken during the course of that search and returned at an indeterminate later date, if at all. I may not be able to leave the country and come back ever again, as it's game over for me if I have to travel outside of the US with my company laptop, which has local copies of everything I'm currently working on so that I can work on it while I'm gone. Certainly, we have backups, so the only immediate loss is whatever I've worked on since the last time I was able to connect to our VPN and commit my changes to the source repository, but now code and company information worth several times what I make in a year are in the hands of heaven only knows who. The Wikipedia article was useful in reading up on the established legality and reasonableness, such as they are, of border searches, and I'm sure if I'd spent the time to read through the primary sources I'd be even more educated on the subject, but in my brief review of the link it didn't say anything about "...and it's also okay to take whatever we want without needing to prove that it's threatening or contraband"
Am I missing something here?
"Linux doesn't exist. Everyone knows Linux is an unlicensed version of Unix"- Kieren O'Shaughnessy
Good luck getting my history.
To make it easy on DHS and customs, I'll cross the border naked, and I'll spend a week of goatse training first so it'll be easier for them to give me a cavity search. *rolls eyes*
Christopher S. 'coldacid' Charabaruk -- coldacid.net
...I debated on whether to dock this poster mod points for inaccurate reporting, or to correct the record.
I'll correct the record.
When you are searched by ICE, you *are* on US soil. Customs facilities at the border are on US soil. When you fly into the US, your first landing area is US soil. You do *not* give up your constitutional rights when it comes to unlawful search. However, ICE (and previously, US Customs) has a wide latitude to search whatever they want to search. You implicitly consent to this search whenever you leave the US and plan to return. There is really nothing new here other than clarification by DHS as to how laptop searches will be performed.
I'm not saying it's right. But that's the way it works. If you don't believe me, then search the legal landscape for federal appeals ruling that set precedent. Here, I'll give you a head-start:
http://fourthamendment.com/blog/index.php?blog=1&s=customs&sentence=AND&submit=Search
this is beginning to look more and more like nazi germany
i dont think ill be going to USA anytime soon
not that i have anything to hide but i can not afford the arbitrary detaining of my business laptop for an indefinite period of time
back in the day we didnt have no old school
"any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form."
:-/
Can I just give them the Hard drive and keep the rest of the case? A hard drive can be replaced for a few hundred dollars. All my companies data on the system is encrypted*, and I backup my laptop frequently - esp. before traveling internationally (figuring there's a better chance of losing the device/ having it be stolen than anything else).
The LCD, case, etc. can't be replaced for under 800-$1000...
Maybe it's the wave of next generation enhancements for your laptop: "Quick ejecting Hard Drive" for those situations where TSA wants your stuff."
*It should only take TSA about 2yrs to get back at the data if they misplace my password. (I wonder what my companies policy is on giving out my password to TSA - I think if I gave it to someone else it would be grounds for dismissal
One of our cooperate laptops was detained by DHS indefinitely. I think they sold it on eBay. The hard drive wasn't re-formatted, so our admin software was still tracking it when it showed up at a truck stop thousands of miles away a few months later.
We watched it move around the Eastern sea board for a while before our "remote wipe hard drive" task actually worked correclty.
I wonder when we will get this one back?
This is a violation of the 5th amendment;
"..nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."
I find this disturbing. My expectation of privacy again gets knocked down a notch.
The only acceptable response to this policy (aka abuse) is to ban it legally and remove its supporters from the government.
I'll get right on that.
Step 1: ??
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
when they dl them they infect the governments comps
Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
------
How the heck is this constitutional? I guess it has something to do with Congress' power to regulate imports and exports - if they are allowed to regulate import/export of software and 'state secrets', then I suppose the argument can be made that they need the power to check what is being taken out or in the country. But how can they possibly hold it *indefinitely*? For one thing, they could just clone the hard drive (and any flash memory, if they are that worried) contents and *give me back* my computer/mp3 player, whatever. What about all the small, inconspicous USB flash devices that no doubt could get past customs (like one disguised as part of a pen, or hidden in the spine of a book, or something like that)?
Also, what's to stop people from just sending this stuff over the Internet if they are determined to get stuff out of the country?
Seems to me that such siezures are clearly 'unreasonable' when there's no reason to suspect the person.
So this is how they are going to put a laptop in the hands of every elementary school pupil ... confiscate them from tourists :p
"Give me Liberty or give me Death!"
Ok.
Bang!
When the Anti-American DHS give you lemons, might as well make fascist lemonade.
Does DHS have an auction site where they dispose of seized laptops?
And, given that it's the government, should we search for "seized labtops" as well?
...I think I would rather take my chances with the terrorists.
Stand Fast,
tjg.
While I was less than overwhelmed by the performance of the TSA officials the two times I passed through the Burlington Vermont airport, I have to say that I would want you stopped at every airport in the world, were you carrying a keyboard that a) looked like a homemade bomb and b) opted for a name that sounds like a munitions component.
[UID-HeinzIntel]
Blends in well with ACTA plans.
may I recommend reading Cory Doctorow's Little Brother - It's fiction but It really get's you thinking about what these, still increasing, limitations to your privacy rights may lead to.
the reason that situations like nazi germany occur in the modern world .. is because it is natural for people to believe that what they are being told is true .. it is unnatural to question or suspect on firsthand that you are being lied to .. and by the time that enough people realize what has and is happening it is to late to easily do anything about ..
study the origins and history of modern education .. the work of John Taylor Gotto is a good place to start .. http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/
then watch the BBC documentary .. The century of the Self ..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/century_of_the_self.shtml
citizen
1: an inhabitant of a city or town; especially : one entitled to the rights and privileges of a freeman
2 a: a member of a state b: a native or naturalized person who owes allegiance to a government and is entitled to protection from it
3: a civilian as distinguished from a specialized servant of the state
since the day that through political and legal maneuvering the corporation gained limited legal liability and the rights of persons .. two things happened ..
first .. this became a private planet .. and we all ceased being citizens ..
even in the modern dictionaries homogenized definition of a citizen .. we are all slaves and the chattel property of the corporation .. we have no rights .. except in our brainwashed minds ..
second .. on that day the LAW .. which at it's very essence is and has to do with regulating and controlling the behavior of human beings .. ceased to have any true or real meaning in relationship to human beings .. as it is now used to regulate .. control and more importantly protect the RIGHTS of things(corporations) and your natural inclination to believe there is some virtue and special status in being a law-abiding citizen .. is the very thing that has allowed the forces of evil .. via the corporation to enslave the people in the NAME of democracy and freedom ..
waking up to the true state of the modern world is a real bitch ..
the only way out is a full scale revolt of the slaves .. ironic as america was founded by an armed revolution against the ruling class .. but as the old saying goes .. fool me one shame on you fool me twice shame on me .. the ruling class will not make that mistake again .. since 9/11 they have used you money and they are now well prepared for that scenario .. both LEGALLY and otherwise ..
but the sheeple are not likely to do that because the vast majority will still prefer to live in denial believing that they have some RIGHTs ..
...when these bastards will obtain the right to confiscate your brain and its contents using an ice cream scoop and a straw? God forbid the day we finally bridge the gap between mind and machine and create ways to extract thoughts and images directly from your brain into some government database to be used against you later on.
8==8 Bones 8==8
Have you not heard about the UK, where a judge has upheld the notion that a Muslim family dispute ought to be covered by Sharia, in addition to the normal UK legal system?
How is that any different from the Jewish Beth din courts that have operated in New York City (and other parts of the US?) for decades and done much the same thing? I really don't see a problem with this as long as these "courts" don't have the rule of law and as long as nobody can be compelled against their will to resolve a dispute in them.
Looking up what a Beth Din is, it looks like they are in the business of arbitrating financial disputes and ruling on religious matters.
For the arbitration function, it would seem that both parties in the dispute would have to agree to binding arbitration by the Beth Din. This is no different in my mind to agreeing to binding arbitration by any other private arbitration service.
For the religious rulings, obviously it would not be a function of government courts to rule on religious matters. Separation of church and state, and all.
But I think this is different from Sharia Law. Sharia Law is the one where they cut off your hands if you are accused of stealing. For less serious crimes, I believe flogging or caning is the cruel and unusual punishment of choice. Obviously it would not be acceptable in an enlightened country to have groups of people setting up their own courts and cutting off each other's limbs as punishment for this or the other crime.
From the Beth Din webpage, I did not notice any caning, flogging, or amputation services provided by their arbitrators. Please correct me if I am wrong on this point.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
With the advances in digital clothing - shirts that can determine wi-fi strength and one cool shirt I saw at a show with a built-in EQ, I would just store all of my info in a shirt and some pants and waltz up to customs - would they take my clothes indefinitely and put me on the plane in my boxers and socks? Can they hold ME indefinitely if I implant data in my skin?
Before we know it, nothing will be safe, even though this is all supposed to keep us safe...paradox!
lol your consitution means nothing these days. There have been so many other laws passed that override it. Wake up!
Megamaid self-destruct sequence: 3. 2. 1. Have a nice day.
Scroob/Sanders/Helmet: Thank you!! *wince*
"I only speak the truth"
Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
There are US Border security posts in major Canadian airports, and I've always wondered how the law works in those situations. The American DHS officers are working in Canada, and therefore fall under Canadian law. So do the Americans have a right to confiscate a laptop while I'm undergoing a pre-clearance inspection in Toronto? I suspect not.
At any rate, I have a notebook that is used exclusively for traveling. It has a generic set of apps installed, no local email, and no files of consequence stored on the local hard drive - I VPN to a remote server to access company documents and files. My machine is expendable.
That having been said, this whole thing of crafting a phrase, capitalizing a word or two, and then arguing as if it were a case of law just chaps my hide. Do you have the "Right to Drink from a Fountain"? Or a "Right to Laugh"? Do I have the "Right to Ridicule A$$hats who Capitalize Madeup $h1t"? Apparently I do - or maybe I'm just taking the law into my own hands - who can tell?
I like traveling to other countries (gasp) which means I have to go through Border Control (call it what you will) with some regularity and I have yet to meet one of these "jack-boot-thugs" you are so up-in-arms about. Maybe you bring it out in people, or maybe I've just been lucky so far. Machs nichs. Other posters have already pointed out that these searches are NOT legally 'unreasonable', so your claim of asking an 8-year old doesn't really pertain. Regardless, I ask, I beg only one thing - knock off the hyperbole. Please. For the love of the FSM.
I can see, based on "border search exception", how border agents would have the ability to rifle through anything they want, electronic or otherwise. But how is this ever going to help?
Anything of terrorist value saved on a computer, phone, or PDA can be easily transferred across our border a lot easier via phone and internet, or even mailing some disks.
Does anyone really think it's possible to catch the one-in-a-million hostile person this way?
"Federal agents may take a traveler's laptop or other electronic device to an off-site location for an unspecified period of time without any suspicion of wrongdoing"
I would like to remind all of their right to keep and bear arms instituted to control and protect oneself from an unreasonable government.
Federal agents should reevaluate their careers with this in mind before accepting positions that are unconstitutional at face.
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
If you're worried about getting anything into or out of the U.S., perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to make friends with a relatively powerful Mexican drug cartel. That way you can smuggle whatever you want and the officials won't touch you. Because if they did, then the cartel could release the freshest dirt to the public on some high ranking official's (ie: Whitehouse, Congress, or even judges of various courts) coke habits or those of their family members. Then even if you're caught running around with obvious contraband and get shot in the ass while making your escape, it's the people who are supposed to be securing the entry to the U.S. that get put in jail for at least 10 years.
Just print out the 1's and 0's of your plans for a terrorist attack.
If you're really paranoid, just remove every 7th page and mail it to the U.S.
Well I always wanted to see the USA (the land of freedom some used to say). This latest idiocy is the final straw in my book so I will NEVER set foor on US soil. The whole planet is in turmoil and whats' one of the biggest countries doing to help? Stamping on the rights of not only its citizens, but also on everyone else. Its a tragedy that the american people are tollerating this. You guys fought bloody wars for the freedoms that are being taken away by petty minded politicians who have no clue how to really make the world safer! Makes me want to scream.
Sometiems, a public announcement is made of the arrest. If the publicized court dockets/calendar are on the wall for all to see standing outside the courtroom, then what's to stop these things from getting into Google, Yahoo!, Lexis/Nexis-like databases (maybe you're a key officer of a company, dismissed for some false/improper charges, and make the news and the d/b rounds), and so on..
Even if the courts expunge/seal records, many people will still be screwed if the DHLS accusations make it to court, even if the court finds you innocent, that Customs/Border Patrol agents overstepped the bounds of the law, and so on.
What is really tragic is that we will never be told (public) the baseline parameters that DEFINITELY CAUSE a laptop/electronics confiscation, and how to avoid any anguish, and what are "questionable" so as to avoid being caught up.
It's almost as if to speed things up (not losing one's electronics) "the government" is trying to coerce the public to be prepared to accept and "escrow" type of agency that will work on behalf of travelers. It might work something like this:
-- Disclose your electronics to an entity that will create a fingerprint of the basic drive/media.
-- Any data you create or edit should be done on OTHER, smaller, easier-to-inspect/copy media
-- Make your fingerprinted media read-only while on travel if that is what it takes to help you speed through CBP
Now, the questions arising might be:
-- "How do we know they aren't recording the contents beyond just making a fingerprint file?"
-- "Doesn't that make us react as if we're guilty without even being charged?"
and so on.
Well, if that's what it takes to avoid having my laptop "stolen" by agents (I KNOW I am not doing illegal things rising to the level of any CBP/FBI/CIA/NSA/local PD/RIAA/ to actually TAKE my laptop especially if it's stuff I could be asked to delete (say, i stumble upon a site and download a national security file, or browse a site and 2 or 3 porn/smut images end up in my cache...) an offending file.
All i know is that i would not be annoyed one frackin' BIT if CBP is assailed by anyone innocent going ballistic on them. This is just PLAIN WRONG to allow any agency take things with no clear written rules, no advice on how to avoid being suspected, no way to know if our public commentary on this will make us targets of retaliation, and so on. I guess they're making many of us morph into "morbid curiosity bystanders" waiting to see someone (on our behalf/by non-contact extension) take them DOWN or take them TO TASK.
Finally, I have NOT had any negative issues with taking my laptop to Japan in 04, and I did not have Customs ask to search me when I arrived back to SFO. However, because I spent a lot of time at Funenokagakukan, and because I visited Mitsubishi and talked about my drawings (maybe 15-20 minutes), and probably triggered an undercover NCIS officer to visit the hostel (pretending to be a guess, even bunking in the hostel, when purportedly he was stationed at Yokohama...), the Customs officer DID, after asking for my passport, run his thumb the lamination and the paper quite a bit of time (15 seconds maybe?) and his facial expression made me think he was told in advance to make damned sure it was ME actually RETURNING to the US soil. Not that I had a fake passport, but that they wanted to be SURE I did indeed depart Japan (a courtesy request by Japan? a US check-up to make sure I am back "home"?) AND return to the US...
That said, I suppose if MY laptop is ever taken, it will be a great source of unbound rage and resentment. It would seen as a hostile act. And, even if I DO back up everything and have to buy a new laptop, it would be QUITE a major irritant, ESPECIALLY if my stuff (which has income-making potential for me) is taken and ends up on the street in someone else's name before *i* produce & sell in my name. I say they better QUICKLY devise an escrow/fast-pass type of system for private, non-business, non-diplomatic travelers. Prevention is better than a ham-fisted "cure".
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
.
You aren't in the US until you are cleared for entry. You aren't out of Canada until you are cleared for exit.
The international border has always been a legal Limbo, always a place where executive and administrative decisions pre-dominate, always a place where the courts have had a very limited say.
Quoting the Fourth Amendment simply isn't of much help to you here.
One question:
When the new guy assumes office, how in hell is he going to take apart the monument to fascism that the Current Occupant (thank you Garrison, it helps to not have to type his name) has foisted on this nation of sheep?
Ever think maybe the Government wants to get all of the illicit traffic flowing over the open network?
Assuming that anonymizer services (e.g. Tor) are easier to break than strong encryption, that would certainly help you to set up a contacts web (who knows who), even if you can't decrypt the contents of the messages themselves.
You all don't understand... No body is taking laptops to check for terrorist information. They're taking laptops because the laptops are worth $500 to $1000 each.
The forerunner of this law is not the Patriot Act. It's the Drug Asset Forfeiture laws. When you take someone's new car because they got found with 10 cents worth of marijuana in it, well then you (and your uniform) are in the car theft business. The fact that you came up with some principal that gives yourself the legal authority to do it doesn't change the fact that you are using your status as a police officer to become the perfect car thief.
Perfect, because there isn't anything that the 'perp' can do about it. Sooner or later, after 'confiscating' so many new cars and seeing how they get auctioned to very select parties for peanuts, you begin to realize that your calling in life (your ability to generate income to support your family, ect...) is more in focus with your being able to generate a steady stream of very expensive and profitable 'confiscated' (stolen by people in uniform) vehicles than it is with stopping petty crime and filling out endless police reports.
You've crossed the line that sooner or later everyone does when they are afforded the opportunity to get away with a perfect crime (in your case, Grand Theft Auto). You start carrying around a half-smoked ma*iju*na (don't want to trigger the NSA wiretappers here) cigarette to use as justification for 'confiscating' some really sweet car that catches your eye. You're corrupt in a very profitable way, now.
This is the way most of the world works. America used to be one of the exceptions. Now it is not. Things change. Learn to deal with it.
The same thing is happening here with laptops. Many if not most international airline passengers carry them now. The low-paid low-intelligent airport security guards are patrolling for terrorists when they steal your laptop; they are 'trolling for bling'. As in any other theft, it is unlikely that you are ever going to get your property back.
The best way to approach this situation is to carry an extremely cheap laptop when crossing a border. Then use a high-speed connection to download your encrypted files from an international website; where you uploaded them before beginning your trip.
Since the 'authorities' are more interested in the cash fence value that they can get from stealing your laptop, the cheaper the one that you bring across the border is less likely to get stolen by the 'security police'.
The world works like this. Get used to it.
There is a simple solution to the DHS problem. Don't go to the U.S with a laptop. If you go with a smart phone (GSM) then just take out the memory card if possible.
> Searches at the border are legally reasonable. This has been held for a very very long time.
I think it's time for that to change.
OK - that's it. There's no way I'm going to USA anymore. I'll just invite my clients to Canada instead. Just too much hassle.
During the cold war, we were terrified of a conflict with the big bad USSR. We knew they were bad because they limited the movement of their people. Border crossings were hell. You could be detained for no reason. Papers had to be in order. Cops could break into your home for any reason, even the wrong reason, and take you or your family members to jail. The stories were horrifying and we couldn't imagine why the people put up with it, other than the fact that they were no longer free.
We heard these stories not just from the news, but from immigrants who had escaped from the USSR to come to the free lands of the USA.
How times have changed.
My wife and I now dream of a day when we have enough money to leave the USA and settle somewhere a bit less offensive to our sense of liberty. I'm not sure where that is exactly, but it's not here.
These opinions guaranteed or your money back.
My guess is that they can punish you for not cooperating. In other words, I'd imagine that if they ask you for your encryption password, you'd have to give it to them. Therefore, here's my best guess at a solution: Get a smart card that can expire at a user-specified date & time (do these exist? where can you find them?) Before you enter the US, encrypt your data with it and set the expiration a little after you plan to get home. Then mail it home... hopefully it gets there. If you get stopped by customs, they probably won't be able to get your smart card to your laptop before the expiration (they probably need a warrant to search your mail?). If that happens, you will lose your data, but at least the government *probably* wouldn't be able to charge you with non-cooperation because there was nothing you could do about it. Opinions? Sources of smart cards that expire at a user-defined datetime?
Several people have recommended TrueCrypt. Open source, free, Windows and Linux, encrypts the boot partition, provides hidden operating systems and hidden partitions.
More and more, the U.S. is becoming a police state. The corruption is not just at the borders.
For example, the government is already fighting a war with Iran. There is talk of "diplomacy", but that is only to limit awareness of what the corrupters are doing.
The situation is the same as before invading Iraq. There was talk of diplomacy, but the leaders in Iraq knew that the U.S. government would invade, no matter what was said, so they acted in a hysterical fashion.
The purpose of invading Iran seems to be the same as the purpose of invading Iraq: to restrict the supply of oil even further, so that oil prices will rise even further.
DHsSuCksA$$!
Hey. They are at (b) Do Not Care or unless (C)it makes a better footbal helmut for the next foosbal President of the United States from a sports-team.
Let's say we look at the top 10% that are in McManagement positions: They run the business as they are commanded as interpreted by someone who does not look at the actual Code; from which is derived for corporations from the standing army's Legislature. There hasn't been any lawful conveyance of land between the people, so I am not going to assert that people are selling land anymore but are just making conditional leases (warranty Deed)from which it all Reverts back to an agency of that standing army some call Bureau of Land Management. Most people receive a mere Deed of the territory to their person upon an exchange of such colorable money, yet law prior to that standing army provides that conveyance occur with money of substance exchanged for a fee simple in an Allodium (allodial title). To this day, None but crafty attornies have done such to assert their land patent. Average people that have relied on same corrupt opinions, have been reduced to babbeling psychopaths that DO NOT STUDY to prove themselves worthy of any co-existance. Any remedy asserted is justified to a PSYCHOPATH, unless it is to someone who dressed-up like someone who might be some kind of police or government officer. Those that have since dominated the legislature to revolve a mode for the government to preserve itself Without the People, to ploy those same People to live a life any benefit of doubt or modest suffrage but to plunder them with valueless currency of account less than water. When that currency enters the market, whoever spent it first on entering were the ones that got the first benefit of slugging their theft to whomever was ployed and played to accept it as valuable; and it continues its average life expectancy of 3 years.
The average people that have such wroth opinion of nature and order are the one's retiring: they failed to rear their children in God, in trust of government, and to any ability to speak non-commercial language. They think they did a hard life of work, and therefore they think they payed their taxes that earned them a retirement: for which none was sure to secure, because the same are intently ignoring any manner of their operation (ignorant). They wouldn't compete to the standing army's Legislature and depended on them for a crew to birth children, moderate food quality, hide public services under "tax" to change one's character to a "taxpayer" other than a recipient of public service. It gets worse down the food chain from McManagement: their employees are powers of Hell worse than the managers, and the standing army enjoys their customers.
As Schneier suggests, the U.S. is becoming a police state. The corruption is not just at the borders.
For example, the government is already fighting a war with Iran. There is talk of "diplomacy", but that is only to limit awareness of what the corrupters are doing.
The situation is the same as before invading Iraq. There was talk of diplomacy, but the leaders in Iraq knew that the U.S. government would invade, no matter what was said, so they acted in a hysterical fashion.
The purpose of invading Iran seems to be the same as the purpose of invading Iraq: to restrict the supply of oil even further, so that oil prices will rise even further.
The U.S. government is rapidly becoming a police state.
For example, the government is already fighting a war with Iran. There is talk of "diplomacy", but that is only to limit awareness of what the corrupters are doing.
The situation is the same as before invading Iraq. There was talk of diplomacy, but the leaders in Iraq knew that the U.S. government would invade, no matter what was said, so they acted in a hysterical fashion.
The purpose of invading Iran seems to be the same as the purpose of invading Iraq: to restrict the supply of oil even further, so that oil prices will rise even further.
The only thing you have to fear is fear itself, and our Government is making us plenty afraid of these shadows :| So we have nothing to fear but the 'fear of terrorists' and how it's taking our freedoms away in the name of ambiguous security.
"OMGs terrorists could have stuff on a laptop!!"
Err no I doubt that...most likely they send it over the internet or burnt it to a CD entitled 'Madonna's Greatest Hits'
one more reason to never travel to the U.S.
I'm sick of being treated like a criminal when all I want is a holiday.
I think this deserves an Informative.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
It's sad that 've sunk so low.
all that sensitive data can be stored on a truecrypt microSD card, and muled up your arse into the great ol USA. Unless they are going to start forcing everyone to take a dump and literally go through it with a fine toothed comb. with how small data storage is getting these days, and how fast internet access is, there's no excuse to actually store sensitive data where anyone expects it to be, right on your desktop and unencrypted.
The policies cover 'any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form,' including hard drives, flash drives, cell phones, iPods, pagers, beepers, and video and audio tapes. They also cover 'all papers and other written documentation,' including books, pamphlets and 'written materials commonly referred to as "pocket trash...
Amendment 4
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
What is particularly odious is that they try to sidestep this Article by arguing that they are not actually *seizing* these items -- just *detaining* them *for an unspecified period of time*. Why, if they tried to do that to a human being, we could invoke habeas corp ...oh, wait. Damn.
DNA is a Turing machine. You, however, being dynamic and emergent, are not.
It's time.
Andy Out!
Parent isn't a troll/flamebait, he's just a neo-con, however the problem is that he's spouting half-truth's he heard from conservative talk-radio.
He should be modded down b/c neo-con fear mongering half-truths are not "insightful", "informative" or "interesting"...just harmful...
Thank you Dave Raggett
I liked your .sig, but thought I might verify it through Google. Unfortunately, here's what *they* thought of it:
Did you mean to search for: "If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guys of fighting a foreign enemy. "
WTF? How did they come up with *that*???
I guess I'm lucky they didn't parse it like this:
Did you mean to search for: "If tranny and oppossum come to this land, it will be in the guys of fighting a foreign enema. "
Frighteningly, that almost makes sense...8^P
DNA is a Turing machine. You, however, being dynamic and emergent, are not.
Corporations might still have some rights as citizens in this society.
Now if only humans did also....
DNA is a Turing machine. You, however, being dynamic and emergent, are not.
get elected in November?
I support Obama, and I think he'd probably agree with /.'er view that searching is legal and has been for awhile, but it's the confescating indefinitely and without cause part that is UNAMERICAN.
However, Obama is not Jesus, and he is a politician. During a campaign all politicians have to pick their battles and be extremely careful about what they say.
The MSM covers Obama as the 'front runner' even though they don't call him that...in otherwords, the frontrunner is the one who has something to loose, so the question is, what will he do wrong? They only analyze Obama in the context of "has he fucked up yet?"
If Obama spoke the whole truth about DHS right now there would be a shitstorm. And McCain would get elected.
Patience my friend...
Thank you Dave Raggett
If illegally copied software, music, movies are found on your computer, will DHS arrest user and report to appropriate industries so you can be fined? Is this another part of these industries plans to control piracy and counterfeiting which surely supports the worlds terrorists. They are really not after terrorists info - there plan is to steal intellectual property and control it for their own uses. The US government is getting paranoid about the power of information and data collection.
Have any old floppies, harddisks, 486 laptops, etc. that you haven't disposed of yet? Take them with you when you cross the border and DHS will take them off your hands! Optionally, fill them with random bullshit data for the agents to amuse themselves with.
Truecrypt already got that features - Only you will need the pass-phrase and the file.
Martin
.
The geek places too much trust in logic and rationality. There is a reason why they call some folks "mad bombers."
Interesting that America is the only country in the world with this kind of system. I've entered and left Russia, Germany, the UK, Finland and at least a dozen other countries dozens of times in the past couple of years and the USA is the only Police State to have this kind of nonsense.
I guess other countries have more important things to worry about than 'copyright violations'.
Here's a question for all the rocket scientists in the audience -- exactly WHERE ARE all these 'terrorists' since 9/11? One would THINK that MAYBE, just MAYBE if they really did exist, that they couldn't have hooked a chunk of chain onto a rental truck and pulled out a section of train track or SOMETHING?
Wake up America! The police state is already in place. All that needs happen now is tighten the noose around the necks of the sheep.
And you wonder why nobody of any importance wants to come and do business in your country anymore?
I know that the chance is very low that they'll steal MY camera with holiday photos, GPS with waypoints and laptop with travel notes, but that's not a risk I want to take.
There are so many more countries that are willing to accept my euros and treat me as a guest. Even Cuban immigration personnel is friendlier (been there twice).
I'm sure this policy will do wonders for the american economy and american airlines.
I'm in the UK. I've not heard of a judge declaring any Sharia law. I call your bluff. Prove your claim by providing references. I am pretty sure you're misleading the slashdot audience here with false information.
I've heard of UK Christian leaders talking about whether Muslims should be allowed to use Sharia law in family disputes, but not any judges setting legal precedence (either in England or elsewhere).
Looking forward to reading your references.
I have a friend who is a government subcontractor...and he has a security clearance.
Guard: Gimme your laptop
Buddy: It's classified!
Guard: wtf?
Buddy: That's right, you don't have clearance to search my laptop. Ha ha
The requiring it be unlocked was technically illegal, a felony even. It's just that when you're dealing with the massive upheaval of low paid jobs that is the TSA, they get their 'rules', missing the exception of firearm containers.
Basically, education is lacking.
I don't read AC A human right
Looks like a great opportunity for a comeback of an updated version of KOH ;)