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Where Should Company Loyalty End?
An Anonymous CTO asks: "Currently, I work for a small Internet consulting company. We've been trying to find funding for the past year or so, but to no avail, and future prospects are quite dim, despite a recent drastic change in our approach. Morale is at an all time low, with near-incompetent management decisions having effectively worn down even the most dedicated of us. My position is pivotal, though, and even though the upper crust is pretty much a joke, my coworkers are quite talented, which is the crux of the matter -- if I bail ship, the company will likely either fold or have to transform itself immensely, quite probably at the cost of the jobs of my friends. And yet, I have two upcoming job offers that are both well paying and good career moves, and offers don't last forever. Should I stick things out, or should I bail and move on? When it comes to the workplace, where do loyalties end and responsibilities to oneself begin?"
Look, here is the deal. As far as the company goes, they will fire you the first time they think it will save them money to have you gone. As for your co-workers, you might be the one leading the exodus and setting the right example. From what you have said it seems like things are pretty bad, and although you can't pouch people from your old company, you all might be better off somewhere else and you setting the example might help. Remember, change is only change -- nothing more. So, do what you think is right and good for you.
I say you bail out ASAP. Nobody is irreplacable
and if the management types want to they can
probably get a replacement for you.
Regardless, if these other people are very
talented as you say, they should have absolutely
no problem getting a job in the current market.
In fact, your probably doing them a favor,
encouraging them to move on from a dying employer.
Welcome to the free market.
If the company decided you were a liability, you'd come back from lunch someday to find a pinkslip and security guard to watch over you while you cleaned out your desk and left the building. Tell me: is the company now a liability to you? And if so, why do they deserve any more consideration than they would give you?
I did precisely this when I worked at Gateway. (Posting anonymously to protect the guilty, like me and my ex-boss).
I was working eleven and a half hour days as a material handler in the service department. On average I was 'receiving" about one-hundred and eighty systems a day (you would not believe the bullshit that people pack computers in to be serviced! Popcorn (real popcorn, with butter), sandbags, and shit you just would believe if I told you). Open the box, dig out the system, carry the system to the desk, look up the serial number in the AS/400, look up the service nuber from the serial number, pull up the service database, enter the system's information (plus anything extra the dumbass customer sent), carry the system to a palate. Do that one-hundred-and-eighty times in ten-twelve hours and you fucking FEEL it.
I asked for help, was denied, I asked for shorter hours, was denied, I asked for better pay, was denied. Since the rest of the department was a bunch of lazy phuckers (and I can say that in all honesty the management made that happen by turning the service jobs into jobs monkeys could do, push this button, insert this disk, push this button, pull out disk), I decided that the first time I got pulled into one of their weekly ass-reamings I would quit.
The boss (second up management from general service person) pulled us into a room one day, and spent one and a half hours bitching, complaining, and whining (being sure to throw the work fucking in ever other word or so) saying things like "you fuckers and the laziest and most worthless pieces of shit I've ever seen. What the fuck is wrong with you. You've gone through four goddamned managers in the past year and you fuckers still aren't working right. You goddamned idiots need to shape up!
You can imagine that after an hour and a half of that I walked up to the manager and said, "You got my notice asshole! Two weeks." He apologized the next day, and asked what he could do to get me to stay as, "you are the only one doing anything". I said, "meet my previous demands." he said, "Can't do that, was denied by upper management." I said, see ya fucking later!
Now I'm systems/network administrator at another company. Amazing how getting out of one of the worst and shittiest jobs in the industry landed me a nice cushy job. Anyway, quit if you need to. That's the best thing to do for your own sanity. The company will sink or swim with or without you. And your coworkers will understand when you leave if they actually know you.
I just went through such a thing last June. I got in somplace else, set up shop and have brought four people over and have room for six more. My pitch to the new place was that I had a package of people to bring along and they loved the idea. Recruiting is hell let alone having a good team for most tech companies. The MBA's probably have parachutes for when the deal goes totally in the tank anyway... Get out, take your friends and get on with your life.
I'm currently going through exactly this situation, the small ISP I work for is struggling against high costs and we live each month to survive the next. I am only 20 but could easily walk into a job doing the same unix/cisco/m$ administration and earn more 50-60% more than I am currently, but I feel extremely committed to the company that took a chance with me initially when I quit university.
;)
;)
Despite being a small company we do have a lot of equipment and I feel living on the edge for 6 months knowing all too well the company might fold after that time is worth the risk as there is no other situation someone of my age and without any commercial experience (but with a lot of skill) can get access to so much hardware, software and bandwidth
I live in my own place in London, get to arrive at work late, spend my day listening to mp3s and doing IT work I love with a close-knit team of colleagues. I can't imagine having such freedom at any major corporation and although it's scary to think it might just disappear, I have no commitments to provide for anyone other than myself and I cherish every moment of this job.
Yes I get job offers all the time, for massively more than I'm getting paid, and much more than I could imagine being paid being just 20, but money isn't everything (maybe I'm just a fickle youngster?) and as long as I'm still learning something new everyday I'll hang around for as long as I can.
I'm crucial to the company, I know if I leave I'll be putting others out of work and that is quite a worrying pressure to be under, but if I was bored and did want to leave I would jump ship without too much worries.
Of course, the major reason not to leave is you'll have to document all your l33t unix setups
You and your management have reciprocal obligations (ethical and perhaps legal). If management is (a) inept and (b) unsuccessful in raising the capital needed for the business to survive, those two are almost certainly correlated, assuming a receptive business climate, a decent business plan, and half-way intelligent pursuit of funding.
I had an experience back ~1979 to ~1981 with a startup, and there was no opportunity to raise money because the person who would be the CEO (he had put some up front money in for patent, etc.) was not up to the task of running a real business. But, even at that we got a lot of interest and serious look overs because of neat techno stuff and were told more than once our dumping a couple of real idiots gave the prospective investors a lot of confidence it was possible to work things out. (Then the economy went south for a couple of years...) I suspect that your operation has let too many idiots inside its management, and potential investors can smell that a mile away. Really-it's uncanny how well you can judge people with a little experience, even just on a "walk through and meet the key players" type of visit. You just have to be looking at things from that perspective, and not be seduced by techno whiz-bang stuff. If investors get the notion that you have an entrenched and incompetent management, its all over for you and has been since day one, since they can only require so many changes before too many people get the wind up and things turn really sour and the lawyers get called out. If you have good ideas, good workers, and only a couple of out-of their-league managers to hem in (or castrate), given the recent climate for investing you should have been given a serious look over by someone. Times are tightening.
VERDICT: move on if you legally can, make things as gentle on friends as you can if you do go. There is no future where you are, and I suspect your question itself is proof of this. (I'm sorry I wasted the two years way back when, especially when I knew at the time that there were personalities that would make investors hesitant, and while a "lateral arabesque" was in progress with our problem person the economy dipped and our opportunity went unfulfilled.)
The military?
That said, their loyalty to their employees is quite another question. That is more to do with _how_ they handle things. So the resulting combinations could be:
I've worked for pretty much all of the above. In some cases I've seen combinations- I worked at a pizza joint when I was younger that contained the extremes- main management was competent and loyal, but at times they had assistant managers who were worse, including one who was incompetent _and_ disloyal (and as a result continually paranoid). I've worked with semicompetent and loyal, and semicompetent and disloyal. The former was when a business was taking on too much- I walked and remained on good terms with the people- the latter was when I bailed out a business by putting a lot of work in, and they ended up replicating the same situation that'd got them in trouble before, setting up one person to entirely depend on and cutting loose all the loyal people who had bailed them out. In that case I walked and keep an element of reserve- waiting for if I need to bail them out again, only my prices have gone up
The spectrum across those two variables should tell you everything you need to know :)
Karma Repair Kit, Items 1-4
-Richard Brautigan
My first reaction is "Loyality is for dogs", "To your own self be true", and so on. That seems well covered so lets look at the other side.
Sit down and find out what the honest chances for the company are. If they are public that is easy, otherwise good luck finding the finiancal information. If there is no way they can get enough funding to stay in buisness longer get a new job. If they won't be able to pay you in a few months, why stay, the ecconomy might turn bad and then you want to be amoung those with a job to keep not those looking for a job.
Okay, lets assume there is a chance they will find enough money to stay in buisness long enough to make a profit. Then the question is harder. Decide what you want to do. Some people like bing in a key role, others don't. If you don't want to be in your position in good times don't be there, if you want to be there is good times learn to live with the bad.
The company I work for last ALL the pivitol devolpers a year ago. For six months we were in panic. However because of the massive loss (4 key guys left in the same week) the CEO jump on a plane to fire the managers who were causing problems. Today we seem to have good management in place (Hard to tell when they have only been around for a short time), and in replacing the key people we discovered some critical problems they were glossing over that needed to be fix. Over all we are better off technically without those people just because the egos who made mistakes are gone. (Which isn't their fault, nobody is perfect)
Notice one thing that happened in my expirence: A bunch of technical people left, which forced the bad managers to "resign for personal reasons". (they were fired as I said above) When a key person leaves it is a sign to management, you could easilly be doing your co-workers who stay a favor by forcing the CEO to notice those under him are are sucking up but not doing their job. If management takes action when you leave to correct the problems, you have done your co-workers a favor. If management takes no action when you leave it proves that you don't want to work there. Looks like a win-win situation to me.
Doesn't sound like there's much action there that he'd want to get involved with. Even if he could become a partner, who wants to own part of a sinking ship? It's still sinking, he'd just have a (much larger) stake in it, and more to lose once it finally croaks.
_____
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
If the company is virtually ready to go under, the loss of one person can cause that, and company management is "so competent" that they're not already acting to avert the outcome, this is a real dangerous place to be already.
The best kind of "loyalty" that is available is liable to be the "loyalty" that results in giving good recommendations to those "non-morons" so that when the company gets seriously injured, the people to which you feel loyal are somewhat buffered.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
You owe nothing to mother company, especially in IT. The same company that pays you a nice salary, healthy benefits, and stock options (stop snickering) will knock you out on your keister in a heartbeat if it so suits them. No two weeks notice, sometimes not even a handshake - just place your things in this box, sign these papers and leave the building.
;). So the question shouldn't be what is the best thing for you, or for the company at large, but what is the best thing for the people you work with everyday.
But, you do owe something to the people you work with, the clients your work, the integrity of your labors. Especially as CTO - part of the job *is* loyalty to those who work underneath you. Never forget why you make the big bucks (well, at least bigger bucks
OK, so maybe it's not that simple of an answer. Good luck.
Although this doesn't apply to the question directly, I've noticed a lot of people mentioning that it's important to take care of your family. I certainly won't disagree with that, but only mention what I experienced at my first job.
Simply put, it was a rathole of a company. Dilbert worked there. It was uncommon to stay longer than a year, and that only if you had to. The people who stayed were the ones who were unwilling to leave, for whatever reason. The excuse most of them gave was "I have to feed my family." This, of course, was 1998, when tech jobs were floating around like oxygen molecules. My only point is, they convinced themselves they were staying for a "good reason," even though it was just a cover for their own fears. Don't use your family as an all-purpose excuse to cover your own issues.
Think about it, although you would hate to see your friends lose thier jobs, it may be the best thing for them, especially since the company's in trouble. It may force them to go out and find higher paying jobs elsewhere with more stability.
Don't deny yourself an opportunity to advance your career to stay with a dying company. Chances are, it won't work out in the long run.
If you are the CTO you probably hired most of the people about which you are concerned. What did you tell them when you hired them? Think about the things you said and the way you represented the company's situation when you are evaluating your decision. You can always get another job, but your integrity is irreplaceable.
In my opinion, you should also consider the nationality of the people you hired. If you hired people on work visas, if they lose their jobs they will most likely be deported and lose their homes.
Where I work, which has undergone recent downsizing, I gentleman I know is a Tiawanese national. His wife is a Chinese national. Their daughter is an American citizen. If he were to lose his job, he would have to go back to Taiwan and his wife would have to go back to China. Therefore, if he were to lose his job he would also lose his family!
Only the most heartless of us would not consider the situations of our friends and collegues when we make these very important decisions. Just by asking this question it is clear that you recognize the magnitude of your decision.
Just make sure you can look at yourself in the mirror and know that you did the right thing.
If the company thought it could improve itself by firing you, it would do so without hesitation. Life goes on, but only you can look out for your own life effectively. Take a new offer and move on while you can.
Jack
They have little loyalty to you, right?
Then why should you have loyalty for them?
As for your friends, you should be doing what I did with my last job change- if you really do like them and feel some sense of loyalty to them, do your level best to find THEM job possibilities, or better yet, try getting them in your current employer.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Besides, then you have the joy of reporting your old business to FuckedCompany.com.
-- Solaris Central - http://w
I was there a few months ago.
I was working at an ISP, doing web programming (after clawing my way up from tech support) - getting paid about half what I was worth, being unhappy, unfulfilled, and unappreciated.
The parent company (a telco) was taking more and more control of the ISP side of things, making poor decisions, and trying to enforce shirt-and-tie policies in a formerly t-shirt-and-jeans company.
In short it wasn't pretty.
None of us in the department (and a couple of other departments) were happy. We'd been happy in the early days, but those days were over.
The first wake-up call was when out department manager (a web designer, and a damn good one) was deposed, in favor of the newly hired project manager, and her "mentor", who was in sales. He left a few weeks later.
Second wakeup call was when the founder of the ISP (who sold out to the telco, and regretted his decision to do it for years afterwards) left to become a project manager at a competing web design house. This was the most laid-back, cool guy you could imagine - and a big slap-in-the-face to those of us who were still there.
At that point, those of us in the department were already starting to put out some feelers (Monster, Techies, etc...) to see what the market was like.
Still though - even though we were unhappy - we felt kind of weird about leaving - the department was very small as it was - the loss of our former manager increased our workloads quite a bit - it was almost unimaginable what another one of us leaving would do to the workloads of the remaining few.
Then, the senior designer left - to the same company as our former manager. 4 remained.
At that point, I had to assess my priorities. I was having a hard time going into work every day - and a harder time staying there once I got there - the atmosphere was becoming more and more opressive - management expecting 4 people to do the same work as 6 in the same timeframe - corporate snootiness clashing against geekish laid-backness, etc...
I laid out my own priorities this way:
My family (fiancee, mom & dad, etc...) comes first.
Myself comes second.
My friends come third.
My job comes last.
For me, It was a no-brainer. The company wasn't doing me, or my friends any good. My family wanted me to be happy, and I wasn't. I wanted my family to be happy - my fiancee in particular, and I couldn't do that on the salary I was making.
So, I left. It was actually fairly easy and quick to find a job in a better area of the country, for a MUCH better salary, and working for a MUCH better company.
The other 3 members of our former team are still there - two negotiated for higher salaries in return for a one-year contract (AKA - no matter how bad it gets, they're stuck there for a year) - one is simply biding his time until he finishes college this summer - at which point he plans on leaving.
I get messages every day from them - and things aren't getting better - they're getting worse. One at least regrets signing the contract that binds him for a year.
The moral of the story is that you've got to decide what's right for you, given your priorities. The job market is fairly good right now - a company isn't doing you any favors by keeping you employed - you're doing them a favor by continuing to work there.
There are bigger, better fish in the sea - maybe if you leave, it'll be a slap-in-the-face to your friends, who are probably in the same boat as you are.
Man - I just realized how long this post is - sorry 'bout that!
Do what you want to do. If those others are talented, they will find work. Or, you could go out on a limb and start your own company and hire all of them. Don't waste your time doing something you don't want to do. Life is too short.
Instant Karma's gonna get you...
With management that pointy-haired, you're probably better off bailing out now, just in case they do something that leaves you, or your reputation, vulnerable.
How's the job market in your area? If it's good, and your friends are as good as you say they are, chances are they'll easily land on their feet, probably in a better environment, position, and/or pay scale.
We're not scare-mongering/This is really happening - Radiohead
This sig intentionally left blank.
Actually, I think the original poster had a great point. Allow me to elaborate.
You say you like your current job. You like your company. You like your co-workers. The management treats you nice. You are loyal to the company, you say. But what is the company? It's a faceless entity whose sole purpose is making money. A logo. A stock ticker symbol. How can you be loyal to that?
From your description I can gather that you are actually loyal to the *people* that you are working with. And that's a very important distinction. The *people* have been treating you nice. The *people* deserve loyalty and respect.
If you are not convinced, think about this:
Suppose all your friends left the company and were replaced by other people who are complete strangers to you. Suppose further that the management also left and new people are running the company. The company name, logo, stock symbol, etc. remain the same. Are you still working at the same company? Does the company still deserve your loyalty? Or does the company need to prove once again that it deserves your loyalty?
In summary:
You cannot be loyal to the company. You are loyal to the people who happen to work at that company.
___
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
There was once a time when a person could expect to work for a company for life. That has changed over the years, as companies chose to save money by laying off employees instead of cutting high executive pay. This is fine, companies can choose to do this in the capitalist system, a system I love, but in return they get a workforce that is and SHOULD be looking out for itself. Ask yourself this: How loyal would they be to you if they needed to lay people off? How loyal would they be to you if cutting your job saved their bottom line? Answer that and you have your decision.
You are exactly right, opportunities don't last forever. You must try to help out your friends but you cannot at the cost of your career. If your friends are as talented as you say, then they should have no trouble finding their own opportunities.
A situation similar to this happened to me. I took the new job and yes the company I left folded...but within a month all of my friends that I worked with there had new jobs. In fact several of them work with me at my new job.
There is a thin line between helping your friends out and holding yourself back.
-----Chaz
-----Chaz
This should be a Poll and not an Ask Slashdot.
Anyhow, I vote 'bail and move on'
And tomorrow I'll vote 'move in with Hemos'
Start Running Better Polls
Why did I resign - even though I faced the same dilemmas ?
So, leave, and make sure that you explain (in private, and discretely) to the rest of the firm what is going on - and try to take them with you or find them other jobs.
Don't be the last rat to leave the sinking ship - nobody wins.
N
It's all very well in practice, but it will never work in theory.
http://www.barryfr.supanet.com/songbook.html
Then go for it. :)
Many years ago, I made the decision to go solo, when I looked at all the decisions made by people I considered to be fools.
This was actually in a partnership that a group of friends of mine set up. However, certain of the members turned out to be the show only for the glamour of part ownership of a company, or to try and get contacts in the masons etc.
In other words, the power players, with no real sense of what was going on. The decisions they made were pretty ludicrous, and stopped the rest of us performing as we should.
One day, I decided I'd had enough, and simply walked away from the mess and went and formed a small company, with a ready client base of people who I'd done work for from time to time, and a ready supply of help from my previous colleagues who were also disenchanted with the way things were going.
If you're already in a consulting job, and know the market well, then it should be pretty easy for you to form your own show.
Initially, if you choose to follow this route, cash will be a little tight. Make sure you have a buffer zone that you'll need to rely on, until the invoices you make are paid.
However, if you have enough clients, things soon build, and you can then pull your present colleagues into the new venture at your leisure, if they feel it would be a better place to work.
It worked for me for quite a long time (though I eventually succumbed to temptation to work full time for a startup internet business, with a very good all round offer), and I still have my company going strong in the background.
And from time to time, I still work with the colleagues of mine that helped me start my own company, under it's banner, on some project or another that we feel we can take on at the time.
Whether this is an option for you or not is entirely up to you. But don't believe you have to be a superman to form your own company. You don't.. It's pretty easy, but just takes a lot of hard work.
From the sound of your post, you're not afraid of that, so, perhaps you should give it thought.
Anyhow, that's just an idea, amongst many here.
Cheers,
Malk
Let's face it, in the end we are all hired guns. The days when a company provided for and took care of its employees are over. Maybe for the better. Just watch the stock of a company after massive layoffs, it will probably rocket since employees aren't viewed as assets. Bottom line is as others have said you have to look out after your own best interests first, family second and then others if they are willing to listen to reason, but in the end you are not responsible for them, just yourself.
-Tat tvam asi.
You also listed loyalty to your co-workers as a criterion. You work with a group of very talented people. If I were you, I'd tell them to start looking for work elsewhere, and then jump ship. Even if they have kids and debts, if they're talented, they'll find better prospects someplace else.
Despite talk of a recession, the high tech job market is still good. Companies are still struggling to fill positions. The implication is that there's no reason to stick with a job that sucks. Obviously if the economic picture changes, then this implication could no longer be true; but right now, your best option is to jump ship. Life is too short for relationships that suck, and that includes jobs that suck.
ObJectBridge (GPL'd Java ODMG) needs volunteers.
Finding God in a Dog
Sorry, but a job is, in essence, a contract, and loyalty is a two way street.
When you are hired (and paid) to do a job, the compensation you receive is for the job done, not to make you feel loyalty to the company.
If it's okay for a company to lay off employees, etc. in order to protect their future (and bottom line), it is equally okay for an employee to look out for his/her own interests, as well. To argue otherwise is disingenous.
If the company has a bad business plan, or bad management, all the employee loyalty in the world isn't going to make all that much difference, and said company probably should fail.
And ultimately, you cannot be responsible for anyone but you. If leaving a company causes problems for other employees, it should be something you consider, but it should not get in the way of what is best for you.
Nunc Tutus Exitus Computarus.
You'd be surprised how many of them are currently agonising over exactly the same options. I leave at the end of the month, but I was pushed. I know of two others leaving this month, another finding finance for a business and a further one actively looking through on-line job sites -- and that's just what I know about.
At one time companies were loyal to their employees. They valued their contributions, saw them as more them numbers and assets, and life was good. Employees were loyal to their employers in return. It was a mututally benificial relationship
Things have changed, and loyalty was lost in the cold cogs of business and profit.
Today, the only one you should be loyal to is yourself. Businesses that cannot create an environment conducive to employee needs are not fit to be in business.
Get the hell out of there and let a functional businesses which will value and utilize your skills benifit. Your on a sinking ship. Get out while the getting is good.
When it's all said and done, you're the one who has to live with your decision.
So it doesn't really matter what our opinion is; what matters is yours.
If you think you should leave, you should probably leave; but do you really think you should, or are you just unhappy about something specific?
-
Linux BeOS FreeBSD MacOS X QNX
SUB-20000 USER ID FOR FREE!
-Joe
The one question I haven't seen asked yet is whether you believe in the product or not. As mentioned by other folks, the job situation of your coworkers will work itself out, but if you are that critical to the production of the company, is the product worth it.
Ask yourself if you're truly working on the Next Great Thing or just a bauble. Is your work relevant? Are you PROUD to be working on it? Imagine the horrible working conditions behind, say, the Hoover Dam. Dozens of people died during construction, many others injured themselves, screwed up their families or God knows what else, but the product was for the benefit of many and one of the wonders of all time.
I'm not saying that you're building a functional National Monument (of whatever country you're in), but do you believe in what you do? If not, why stay and put up with the BS? If so, maybe you should save it. Perhaps it's time to do what it takes to save your sinking ship (since you can do so with near-impunity, assuming you do nothing illegal or that you could be sued for). Confront management and speak your mind. Times like these are ripe for confrontation and change. Poach ideas (or offer to license them if you must). If you believe in the product, make it happen! If not, put it behind you.
Will this be worth talking to your grandkids about in years to come? Hopefully so...
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana." --Groucho Marx
The company you're in is flawed from the start. A consulting company, by it's very nature, shouldn't require funding to remain in business. I too work for a consulting firm, but one with a business model requiring it to make a profit and pay for itself. There's nothing magical about consulting, and consulting firms rarely grow large (which is probably why your company is having such a hard time finding funding). The fact that your company is focusing on securing VC capital rather so that they can maintain a flashy image, rather than pursuing CUSTOMERS who will actually pay the bills, tells me that the management of the company is clueless about what running a company really means.
Ask yourself this: Do you think they would hesitate for a moment to drag you down with them, until they ran out of funding, despite the damage it could do to your career? If the answer is no, then they don't have any loyalty to you. And if they're not loyal to you, why are you worried about them?
Bail now and save yourself. Or better yet, try to get all the programmers to join you and form your own consulting firm, founded on a PROFIT based business model. The firm I work for started when 5 programmers left a situation similar to yours. They hired an MBA and an accountant to handle the business, and a sales guy to promote them. That was 4 years ago...we've now got 40 employees and are clearing 12mil a year in sales (without a DIME of funding).
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
"The people" acting in concert to produce, are not the employees. They are the stockholders.
If an employee has some kind of personal relationship with them, then there may be some reason for a bit of loyalty. Otherwise, loyalty is unjustified.
Star Trek is just a TV show.
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
You sir, are a communist.
im okay with that though.
"Tension is the great integrity" -- R. Buckminster Fuller
+1 insightful
"Tension is the great integrity" -- R. Buckminster Fuller
If the company can't stay solvent over one individual leaving, it wasn't worth keeping in the first place. If it can easily replace the person leaving, then it stays around, and he gets a better job.
Either way, there's really no good reason to stay.
You have it totally backwards. If you must indulge your fantasies, don't put them above family and friends - that would qualify as an addiction. I would refer you to Alcoholics Anonymous, except they share the same silly fantasy. I guess you're stuck...
My uncle used to talk just the way you do. He recently committed suicide. Your fanatic behavior is most likely symptomatic of mental illness. I wish you well in dealing with it.
1) you first
2) Family
3) work
Another words bail out now and find somthing better.
Sherm
...."it's nothin' personal, jus' business...."
BANG!
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
I think you're neglecting one important fact: corporations are owned by *someone*, wheither by a small group of founders or by a large board of directors. Either way, those who own corporations end up funding the payroll and are effectively the bosses of these companies. And, of course, like most people in a capitalistic society, they're in it for the money.
It seems your worries about this "trend" in capitalism is a basic worry about the growth of the gap between the haves (the bosses) and the have nots (the employees), especially the "trend" of the "haves" using their positions of wealth to protect and acquire new wealth, such as influencing government policy, damn all others. Basic, naked greed.
Thus the "perils" of an capitalistic society. Well, more specific, American society. Political power comes either from the polling booth (sheer numbers of citizens for a certain cause), or, fail that, from the amount of wealth and influence one can use directly on those running the government (through both legal, quasi-legal, and illegal means.) And since most people don't have a large thong of followers, the other option is the more realistic one.
My two dull, dirty pennies.
George Lee
Bail after giving your buddies at the company plenty of warning. If you do things right, you might even be able to bring them with you.
After years of promises, this was the straw that broke the camels' backs. I got up the guts to walk, got a better-paying job in the same town (not easy here!) with MUCH less stress. Went from constant migrains and heart problems (at age 26!) to peaceful bliss - still doing something i enjoy! Two weeks later the network engineer left too, so there was NO senior tech people left (clue factor there dropped to slightly above zero, but not much above).
Result? Company lost lots of their biggest clients cause service and reliability dropped, but they're still limping aling like always. Company loyalty only goes so far! Dont let it cost you your health or the food on your table!
First and foremost, you have to do what's best for you - nobody else will. Good management will support you in this. Bad management... is better left behind.
__________________________________________________ ___
rooooar
Phew! I'm a quarter of the way down the page, and I find the first person to say "Stick it out".
I have to agree. You cannot really change the top management above you, but you can influence those those in the team below you.
Apart from, it seems, the top managements apparent incompetance (sp?) possibly simply being unable to find funding (In an economic climate, which has made this significantly harder to do, especially when without a concrete plan for profitability)
If everyone bailed out of a company at the slightest indication of a storm ahead, then there would be no successful companies. In my mind nearly all e-companies have gone through that "make or break" phase, some coming out on top and others dissapearing into obscurity.
heh. Once, on changing jobs, I managed to get three job offers. I politely declined two of them by saying that I was accepting another offer, but that if it didn't work out perhaps I could give them a call? Even the company I was leaving asked if there was a chance I might come back in the future.
Currently, I still receive "recruitment-spam" from having put myself on job-search lists over a year ago. This isn't the same thing. But I think we can assume that, for this CTO, there isn't a problem in being able to find a new job.
For me, if you execute correctly, you can really leave many options open.
The three soldiers returning home from war were hungry. When they saw the village ahead their spirits lifted - they were sure the villagers would give them a meal. But when they got there, they found the doors locked and the windows closed. After many years of war, the villagers were short of food, and hoarded what they had.
Undetered, the soldiers boiled a pot of water and carefully placed three stones into it. The amazed villagers came out to watch.
"This is stone soup." the soldiers explained. "Is that all you put in it?" asked the villagers. "Absolutely - although some say it tastes even better with a few carrots..." a villager ran off, returning in no time with a basket of carrots from his hoard.
A couple of minutes later, the villagers again asked "Is that it?"
"Well," said the soldiers, "a couple of potatoes give it body." Off ran another villager.
Over the next hour, the soldiers listed more ingredients that would enhance the soup: beef, leeks, salt, and herbs. Each time a different villager would run off to raid their personal stores.
Eventually they had produced a large pot of steaming soup. The soldiers removed the stones, and they sat down with the entire village to enjoy the first squire meal any of them had eaten in months.
From "The Pragmatic Programmer", Hunt & Thomas.
Worth thinking about...
Companies have no loyalty only people are loyal. I have been loyal to those managers and supervisors if they are competent and have earned my respect. My loyalty is to the people and customers not the company.
In the situation you describe the management has shown gross incompetence you owe them no loyalty at all. You can empathize with your friends and coworkers but you must think of your career. If staying in a dieing company is a good career move then stay, otherwise take the offer and try to bring as many of your friends along as possible.
Neutrons are slippery little rascals, they can fool you. They can bounce and show up around corners you don't expect.
Bail! Bail like your life depends on it!
Don't worry, your friends, the smart ones, are already leaving.
Is that the company was already doomed, whether Larry left or not. Larry staying on board might have prolonged things a wee bit, or made the decline seem 'smoother', but if the company wasn't doing well enough to replace larry, it was doomed anyway.
I think like a lot of readers, I'll echo the sentiment that company loyalty should not be a reason to make yourself miserable. Obviously, business is business and most companies won't think twice before cutting your job if that's what it comes down to. But maybe, more importantly, is the question of letting your friends and associate down.
:)
I think I can relate to the feeling, since I am also debating the wisdom of having involved friends with a company I'm currently considering to leave. But, if my experience is a guide, a few ideas are worth considering:
1.- If you are the only thing keeping this company together, is it because of you it will fail if you leave? Answer to that is probably a resounding "No!". If someone else's management style make you yearn for employment elsewhere, well, you can hardly be held responsible.
2.- You and your friends are probably being remunerated for your efforts. I would also suggest that even if efforts might seem wasted when a company or project goes astray, you might actually benefit more experience wise than someone who has a cushy job somewhere else. At the end of the day, once the money is spent on toys and material belongings, all you really have left is experience. So, it's not all a loss, in the end, as long as you have learned something valuable in the process.
Besides, if your friends are like mine, they'll want to see you happy, won't mind you leaving a job that is making you miserable. (And they probably all have new jobs lined up already.)
So get over that guilt trip and get on with your life. God-bless and good luck.
We had a guy interview w/ us not too long ago. He *LOVED* what we did and liked the people he interviewed with, etc. We made him an offer and he accepted. When he quit, he was guilt-tripped into staying at his old company because his leaving would irreparably damage it. I couldn't believe that he caved to that. He hated what he was doing and saw it as a sinking ship (they had laid off an entire department a few weeks before completely unexpectedly). What I wanted to shake out of him was why he'd want to stay at a place that was *SO* fragile that his leaving would cause that kind of a problem. If things are that tenuous, it will be a long time until you can go on vacation or separate yourself from work without fearing that you'd have nothing to come back to!
I recently was in the same position.. Except I didn't jump. I stuck it out. The reason was because the managers played mind games and made you think that being unloyal to the company was something personal. Don't think of it that way.. It shouldn't be.
Here's what happened to me.. The company ran out of money. The management kept it a secret. I assume to protect moral. The president of the company screwed up. We walked in one Monday, they said "Bye, That's it." we walked out. My paycheck bounced, and on top of that they still owed me for about a weeks worth of work that I had done. That was back in November. I still haven't been reimbursed for my bounced paycheck. My checking account was in the hole a couple thousand, my bank wouldn't let me cash checks I had gotten from contract work, the company hasn't paid me for the other hours yet, I haven't gotten any word on my W-2's and the president of the company is missing. Her kids don't even know where she has been for the past 2 weeks. Some other employees and I think she was snuffed... We did have a little funding, but from the wrong type of people..
Cover your own butt! I'm sure your friends that work with you are going to do the same. Unless their stupid or have been brainwashed about loyalty.
I had a similar choice to make late last year. Having the opportunity to leave a secure SysAdmin job in the private sector to work for a large un-named university was a big decision, but the perks (relaxed dress, higher pay, "big city" employment, advancement opportunities, etc.) came at a big price. After so many years in a "business" atmosphere, I found out that there was no way I was going to be able to cope in the relaxed (almost lazy) environment at the university. It took a whopping two days (oh and a promotion at my old firm) for me to decide to go back.
Besides that, the position was really gonna suck.
My only lesson from this was, the grass ain't always greener.
Maybe not a good lesson for the original poster of the thread, but perhaps to the rest.
Anyway, sorry for the interruption.
I used to work for a company as CTO. It was a startup (not dotcom but in the IS field) founded by two ppl I know. One worked in the company, the other was a "silent" partner. We were doing great, work was pouring in, we were hiring like crazy. We were even starting to make a profit. Our only problem was funding. We needed to make some big investments in real estate and hard/software, and to compensate for some losses we made when we just started.
... (can you say PHB ?). He managed to blow any chance of funding out of the water. He offended clients and prospective investors with amazing cluelesness.
My boss was working on that and making good progress when disaster struck: my boss had a bad accident.
After this the "silent" partner stepped in and
I was in the spot you are in today.
The Logistics manager and I might have been able to straighten things out or at least keep things running for a while, till our boss had recovered from his injuries. (At the time we effectively ran day to day operations) I felt I owed it to my boss to be loyal because he had been good for me, giving me the opportunity to do a high level job which no other company would have given anyone with my resume at that time. In the meantime the silent partner was making this awful hard. He wouldn't listen to any of our suggestions, make very bad mistakes, he wouldn't even listen to our boss when he went to visit him in the hospital.
Finally I got together with the logistics manager (a close friend of mine) and we talked long and hard about this. We had a good relationship with the ppl in accounting so we were aware of the financial situation (This made our course of action much easier, because we knew what we were up against). We decided that:
- Our original boss deserved our loyalty.
- Our new boss did not
- Some things in our company were going wrong but they were fixable. I.e. the company could survive. (this was crucial, we were going to put in a lot energy and sweat, we needed to know this)
- The new boss had to take his shares and stay home. (This guy could lose clients just by picking up the phone and striking up a "pleasant conversation")
Once we figured this out we put together a rescue plan for the company and a realistic scenario of what would happen if we wouldn't start fixing things. We put it on our new bosses desk. I then had to leave the country for two weeks (a long overdue vacation)
When I got back our plan was in the same place on our new bosses desk as before I left. He hadn't spoken about the plan to our logistics manager. I had one final talk with my old boss and left. The company went down two weeks later with quite a lot of money down the drain.
My feelings now:
I hate what happened to a good idea, and a nice company to work for. I hate that my old boss ended up well in debt.
I never regretted leaving, because there was nothing we could have done without the support from our new boss.
beauty is only a light switch away
These days you can't afford to be loyal to the company, because when push comes to shove, they WON'T be loyal to you. Remember, the company's mission is to maximize profit. If your job comes in the way of that, they they must cut you. There is no loyalty from a nameless entity like a corporation.
If you stick around feeling the company will be loyal to you, you are SADLY mistaken.
Look out for your own interests, try to find your friends jobs at other places. If they are as talented as you say, they should have no trouble getting a better job in the tech market - companies are hungry for people.
In short, leave now, before you are forced to. If you are concerned about friends, send them to your recruiter buddies/monster.com/dice.com
(Score:5, My Personal Hero Of The Day)
Grammar was correct as well. Could not of been Taco.
--------------------
Would you like a Python based alternative to PHP/ASP/JSP?
you gave me a good laugh!
Warn the good folks there that you're going to bail -- then do it. Make sure you get their email addresses, and tell them that you'd like to keep them in mind when you land your next job.
Loyalty is a good thing. It's part of who you are. It's part of a strong code of ethics. And sine it's part of the ethics, you know when unethical behaviour by management (sinking the company) perfectly justifies ethical behaviour by you (e.g., bailing, and now!).
Oh my God you're a genius! This post concretely states what I've been seeing in my current company, my previous company, and my wife's company. I couldn't have put it any better, except to add the spin that this is indeed a universal problem of screwed-up management, not just in software development. Oh, and one addition, that many managers are given bonuses based on goals that are often in conflict with the goals of the people that they manage, causing disinterest in the concerns (or opinions) of those that are under them.
Empty promises, lack of knowledge, and inability to communicate are the rule of incompetent managers in every industry, on every continent of the globe. My only question is how can this problem be fixed? As in Dilbert, the people who would be tasked with fixing problems like these are powerless but cluefull, or cluless and powerful.
-- Len
Usually my loyalty has been crushed out of exisitance by 9:30am. *sigh*
The managers will pull the company together again.
That's assuming the managers are capable of doing their jobs. This person has alluded to the fact that his managers are incompetent, with the implication being that there is a fair chance of this startup crashing regardless of whether he stays or goes.
Your friends might have bought a new car last week. Maybe they took out a loan. How are they supposed to pay for that after you leave, and they lose their jobs?
How is this his responsibility? If his coworkers are as talented as he says, they'll have no problem finding new jobs; moreover, unless they work with their heads in the sand, they can see that a storm is a'brewing. The first rule of working in this or any other industry is "Know where your exits are." Never walk into a building without knowing how to walk out; likewise, never take a job you're trapped into.
This company has paid for this 'anonymous CTO's house, the car in the garage, the panties worn by his three year old daughter.
Wrong. This company has paid him for his efforts and expertise. HE paid for all of the things you've mentioned, though I don't think most people automatically jump the the panties of a three-year-old when considering expenses.
It's disgusting to think about ditching out of the company when the weather gets rough.... Corporations are part of the new social order. Look at the Japanese. They practically stay with the employer for their entire life! That's some respect!
This used to be the pattern of work in the US. Then the american worker figured out that in the eyes of your beloved corporation, he is expendable. If the company falls into financial straits and jobs are cut, whose do you think will be first? Probably not his, as a CTO; certainly not the managers who caused the mess in the first place. Its the front-lines who are always the first to fall... his friends are gone in a pinch, regardless of whether he's there or not.
Bottom-line: in the words of the ever-eloquent Shakespeare... "To thine own self be true." The only loyalty owed by anyone is to oneself and ones family. Friends are second, and corporations a distant third.
...but most of all, remember that your labor is a commodity to be sold to the highest bidder.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
I see companies all the the time starting programs to make work more social. Here this:
Work is not a place to make friends.
It may happen that you'll make friends with coworkers, and that's nice, but should not be expected. Work is not a social club. If you don't believe me, spend half of tomorrow playing board games with your 'friends' and see how long it is before your boss tells you the same thing.
If these people are friends, they'll be your friends after you work elsewhere. If the only thing making them friends is the coincidence that you are forced together by a mutual need to put bread on the table, I would rather classify them as aquaintances.
I left IBM for various reasons, but I still have friends there. One in particular is afraid to leave because everyone likes her there. She is underpaid and overworked. She can easily do much better elsewhere, but she doesn't want to lose her "friends". It's dumb and I've told her so.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
--
That is all.
I was in much the same situation just a few years ago. The upper management wasn't exactly stupid, but they made some really bad decisions as to where the company should be focussing it's efforts. A number of the employees were working more on faith than on money, and people were dropping off like flies.
Most of the technical staff (programmers, admins) were university friends of mine. We hung out alot and I even got my job (and I did it well) because of someone from the group. As time went on, we all sorta hung on to each other for hope.
Eventually I was faced with leaving the company. After having lost much money for the company, I decided to leave. In fact all of my friends did the same thing.
The biggest thing I learned was that my friends (and they're all good friends) can always sympathize with me and with each other about the situations that are brought about. However, they're not gonna pay your rent, or your insurance. In the workplace, business is business. Everyone is gonna understand that.
If you leave, and you really are that pivotal, and everyone there is as talented as you say, then they'll be able to find jobs elsewhere, and they'll likely leave soon after you (if they're smart). It's your life, and I don't think you'd wanna waste the younger years of it on a sinking ship with captains that don't know how to navigate :-)
When it comes to the workplace, where do loyalties end and responsibilities to oneself begin?"
Companies, just like people, only deserve the loyalty that they've earned. If they've earned your loyalty (for example, through treating you better than you would be treated elsewhere), then take that into consideration. But if not, then there's no reason to be loyal to them. Look for a better job and leave as soon as you land one.
If the talented people are having a fulfilling experience working for the company stay.
If they aren't, then if your company is worse than average they'll probably end up in a better situation.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Founders and Boards of Directors do not *own* corporations (at least not publicly traded ones), they just run them. The *stockholders* own corporations.
I was in a similar boat some years ago, finally deciding to jump ship from a small startup in the midwest run under a clueless tyrant (hi Dave!) for an opportunity on the west coast. I felt bad at the time -- I was sure that if/when I left, Bad Things would happen to the company I was leaving, and they'd surely fold in a month.
Four years later, they've had the balls to stay in business. The nerve!
My point: you can't predict what's going to happen to your current employer or your friends, and honestly, it's not your responsibility. Surprisingly few of my former coworkers have left (despite various abuses(!) and lousy, lousy management), and yeah, I felt guilty for about two weeks. By leaving, you might be showing others "the way" out of a bad situation, or you might simply be feeling worse about this job than your friends are. Either way, you owe it to *no one but yourself* to get out of there, get on with life, get a better job, and basically advance your own career. Don't be an ass about it: make a graceful exit, recommend your friends to the recruiters at your next job, and go.
Just like in a marriage - by the time you decide you need couselling it's too late.
Examples of true Marxism do occur. A good example is the EZLN, the Zapatista liberation movement in Chiapas Mexico. To more fully understand why the EZLN exists, read Chiapas: The Southeast in Two Winds, A Storm and a Prophecy
The funny thing here is that many modern religions teach that humans cannot be perfect. We are supposed live imperfectly and wait for perfection in the afterlife. In essence, religions are support the status quo, no matter how inequitable or unjust the distribution of economic benefits are.
I guess that is why Marx called religion "the opiate of the masses". Get rid of the "imperfect human" dogma and teach people to strive for perfection in the here and now, and maybe then people will not settle for a less than perfect social/political/economic system...
--
You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
Wow, that sounds exactly like my current condition. I'm a CTO for a company that has a good tech base, but currently nothing else. I'm constantly being inundated with odd decisions from other members of the executive staff... And, I have friends in my company also. Here is my decision as it stands. The offers I have will hold out until the end of February (lucky for me). I will stay until the end of February and do what I can to correct the situation. If I'm not completely thrilled about the companies chances, I'm moving on. My company may not fold, but will have to alter dramatically. The odd part is that the bulk of the techs (who are currently doing a great job) will be let go as a result of my leaving. That's just an example of the types of decisions I'm seeing from the executive staff. If you don't believe in the companies capability for success, then you won't be able to help. I'm sorry, but move on...
Loyalty ends with happiness. If you're unhappy and don't expect to be challenged in a positive way, bail now, and suggest your co-workers do the same. Those who think they can achieve success will achieve it or fail, but in either case they'll learn something about themselves, business, and technology - and learning something will only make them more valuable. If they're as talented as you say, they won't be any worse off anyway. They may even thank you for the experience.
:)
so says ctimes2Landers.
Ctimes2
My cube. My friend. My solace. My prison.
There is nothing you can do to save this situation. You can be a great help to your talented coworkers by taking one of your offers, and helping those coworkers get jobs in your new company, or one of the offers you turn down.
The longer you stay, the more you will get worn down, the lower your energy level, and the harder it will be getting more offers.
In his world anybody who critizes any corporation is a communist. Only communists think that people are actual human beings, to a capitalist humans are better refered to as "human resources", "biological assets", or "expenses".
War is necrophilia.
Well then you ought to name this wonderful company that is going to change the world. Also tell us what the dream or vision of this company is. I always presumed the dream of any company is to make more money but maybe your company is different.
If you so proud come clean and let the whole world know.
War is necrophilia.
Your company would probably fire you if someone just as qualified would be willing to work for 5 or 10K less.
You can not disrespect a company. A company is not a human being. It's a soul-less immortal being.
War is necrophilia.
"Accept risk. Accept responsibility. Put a lawyer out of business."
Accepting risk and responsibility is for suckers. The smart people form corporations. This simple act shields them from accepting risk and responsibility for their actions. Don't belive me ask firestone.
War is necrophilia.
Sounds like the corp is flaming out anyway. Bail now. It'll give your friends the excuse they've been needing to go.
Best Slashdot Co
The economy exists not for some mystical secularized religious reasons (which is what Marxism is about), but to satisfy consumer demands. If your company can't do that, find a company that does it well, and go there.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
I'm not trying to tell you how to run your life, just some simple advice. It does neither you nor your friends a favor staying on a sinking ship. If your friends are talented, they should be able to find work also. You may also wish to talk to your friends about finding other jobs also, before you hand in your two-wek notice.
As far as the jobs are concerned, besides being good money, are they in a field that you are interested in? Do you believe in the company direction?
+-- (Score:-1, Moderator on Power Trip)
Take the job offer at the new company and bring your friends' business cards with them.
But you have to keep in mind any non-recruit clauses in your contract. I, for example, would be forbidden from recruiting any of my co-workers for a year after I left my current employer. If the company is as messed up as you say, they might very well sue you for breach of contract.
If, on the other hand, your co-workers solicit you, or if you wait until the company in fact folds, you'll probably be off the hook.
Right...
I too, used to feel extremely loyal to my small company. Then 3 weeks ago, we went through a huge round of lay offs. Then I realized that just because you would do anything to help your company succeed, they may have no hesitation to let you go. Made me re-think how I felt about employee loyalty. I'll still work my ass off for my co., but I will also cultivate other opportunities that I find. I will no longer put my company's needs in front of mine. Do you think they put your needs in front of theirs? Hell no.
Your post clearly indicated contempt for jobs in general and bagels in specific. I read that as including contempt for the people serving bagels. If that's not the case, I apologize.
Regardless my point still stands; all positive-sum work can be done sincerely, well, and with pride. When I worked at McDonald's, I felt that way. When I worked in a factory, I felt that way. And now that I make software, I still feel that way.
Note that the poster didn't mention anything about company loyalty; that's only in the headline.
From reading the actual question, it looks like the querent is much more concerned about a different kind of loyalty, loyalty to his employees and colleagues. Good bosses know that they have a responsiblity towards the people they hire and lead; bad ones leave at five o'clock and say "it's the company's problem."
This guy sounds like a good boss, one who is trying to balance two apparently contradictory things, his own self-interest and his concern for the people he works with. Other posters have suggested many ways that he can get some of both; hopefully one of the compromises will fit his situation. Your notion that he should give not at moment's thought to people who depend on him is sad; I can only hope that your future bosses treat you with more respect and concern than you advocate here. And I hope you never manage people until you learn the difference.
---
And what, by the way, is wrong with serving bagels? What makes those people so worthy of your contempt? I have friends who work service jobs and like it a lot. They don't think they're saving the world or anything, but they can make people's lives a bit better by doing their jobs with skill and spirit. And it's not like they're stealing, selling smack, or doing marketing; selling bagels is a positive-sum game.
When I used to work in a factory, I was proud of making useful stuff. These days I design and build software; I'm still proud to be making making useful stuff. If you're not proud of what you're doing and why you're doing it, perhaps you should look elsewhere.
Tell them to pay up, or bail. Companies are quick to dump employees to cut costs. Your services should go to the highest bidder, just as they will seek out the cheapest labour.
If you are on a boat;
With yourself and a crew of 5 out of 10 who you are specifically incharge of.
Those 5 people are truly talented crew members.
The captain of the boat ran out of fuel.
Or for that matter the captain ran the boat into an iceberg (titanic style)
Do you:
A. Stay on board and help the captain till the ship sinks.
B. Plug in your laptop, come on slashdot and troll to death (literally).
C. Get off the goddamned boat, get a helicopter and get your 5 best mates off a sinking ship and then worry about others on the ship if need be.
D. Get naked and start singing kumbayah.
It's pretty clear to me.. The obvious answer is first you do C and then proceed to D. Get out first. Help your mates second. Then sing naked. Or whatever it is you do to celebrate.
I just left a tiny company after 3 years of service. The owners were great, but had a very short list of clients. In the end, they couldn't pay for any classes or exams for me. With 4 years of experience, I was only making $66k in NYC, and they were even losing money on me! My 30th birthday was approaching, and I just couldn't take the grind anymore.
I had a close friend in the IBM e-business group, and she got me in. In six months, I've already architected a 64-node Linux cluster, and I'm about to architect a 200-server Linux network with wireless Linux webpads as clients. Sure I'm still doing MS network design and implementation, but my horizons are much wider now. Can you imagine architecting a solution for a tier-3 ISP wanting to run thousands of virtual Linux hosts on a mainframe? Now I can. Hell, I may have to one day.
Was this the single best decision of my life? Hell yeah.
--
Intelligent Life on Earth
I've received offers from clients that there is a job available for me should I want to take it. I haven't updated my resume in 5 years and have never sent it out to anyone...but if you work in the right field, people will come looking for you.
If I take this job it would be the second I've gotten without a single interview. In my first job I was recruited by a member of my study group from grad school.
I think actually working with someone for a month (either as a consultant or a partner on educational/open source projects) is a much better indicator of future performance than any 1 or 2 days of interviewing.
No more, no less. You are working at will, which means that you can be let go at any time mangement decides the business needs depend upon it. Likewise, if the company is not meeting your needs you have the right to fire them and seek employment elsewhere. It should be a business decision based upon your ecconomic needs (measured in terms of pay, benefits, overall job satisfication and professional opportunities).
My $.02
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
>Grammar was correct as well. Could not of been Taco.
You mean, "Could not HAVE been Taco", right?
Well your loyalty to your friends and your company is admirable. However, you probably have a family to think of as well and they should be at the top of your list when making these decisions. You should draw a mental line in the sand. When the company crosses that. Give your two weeks.. you may wanna give your friends a little advanced notice, but be careful with this. No need to follow the Titanic down and start drawing unemployment because you missed good oportunities. Thats my two cents.
JOhn
Campaign for Liberty
No offence intended towards the anonymous poster, but why is this a piece of "news for the nerds"?
Oooh. I see, because of the "INTERNET" company...
Come on... These kind of questions are getting pretty ridiculous. Soon we will see:
An anonymous 12 years old girl says : I met a boy on the "INTERNET". I really like him a lot, but he seems to like my best girlfriend Nina more than he likes me. I tried to dye my hair, but he did not like it either. Please, Slashdot community, I need your help! Tell me what to do to get his attention.
Yes, I agree that this does put him in a beneficial position to grab some extra loot, however I've learned that accepting counter offers is never a good thing, here's why:
1. If they offer a raise only when your about to leave, this shows you how much they really care about you, only doing what they have to keep you there.
2. That doesn't change the working environment or the projects you work on, if you don't like doing what you are doing, then you should not stay. Tis better to enjoy your work than to have a new TV if you know what I mean.
3. What good is a raise if the company goes under shortly anyways, now you have no money and no offers...
In this case, I would not bargain because it sounds like you don't enjoy the job (I know what it's like in a company with bad management) and that you would be happier elsewhere.
Thanks for listening to my 2 cents..
Why yes, it does sound that way, doesn't it? But is he wrong to express dismay at people jumping on board a company to pick up some quick cash, and encouraging other people to stay longer so it takes less time to make it? That isn't so much capitalism as it is near-parasitic. Capitalism is about doing work or making products and selling them at a profit. In other words, getting rewarded for effort. That's why capitalism works and is a good idea, because people are motivated. For people who aren't executives to be motivated by a corporate culture that revolves around stock valuation more than fostering a pleasant work envornment is counter-intuitive. But perhaps I am once again confusing communism with socialism.
XeoMage
But in no case do you stick with a company that has "near-incompetent management".
That describes a majority of all dotcoms.
My Weblog
It is unethical to make a false committment to a company's project and then (barring an extremely good reason, of course) bail when they are depending on you to do what you said you would
I disagree. With one big exception every place I've ever worked has had at will employement. Basically when you don't want to play any more, it is perfectly ethical to leave immediately. Basically a days pay for a days work. BTW the exception was an enlistment in the US Army.
My Weblog
Correction: you work for money. He obviously doesn't work only for money, else he would have already booked out the door and landed another job.
There is more to employment than just money. Some people take certain jobs or work in certain fields for idealistic purposes as well.
Nevertheless, this situation sounds like no matter which side of the coin is chosen, departure is necessary. You're definitely dead-on about the shakiness of the company if one employee leaves.
.... um, i lost you after "0110100001101001".
And the decline continues unabated...
Don't mean to troll, but then again, must we be baited so?
I bailed in October. The company is still in business and I regret leaving, but it was the right move at the time. You will probably regret it whether the company sinks or keeps swimming, but you have to do what's right for you.
Look at it this way: If you don't leave, will the company have any loyalty for you? Will they try and get you your last paycheck or hang you out to dry. I know people who hung around and worked without getting paid "for the company" and got screwed. Will your company do this to you? If they might, bail.
If you are as skilled as you put forth, and are working in companies of this small size, could it be possible to take the co-workers with you, by forming a consulting group perhaps? I'd say the lot of you should try to buy the company from your management, but that's more unlikely to happen.
my hobbies include space walks, ether chugging contests and marathon sleep contests.
If you do, then decision has been made for you. You don't have the luxury of taking chances with a failing company. Company loyalty doesn't put food in their mouths, clothes on their back, or a roof over their heads.
If you are young, single, and have money in the bank, then you must decide if there is a chance for the company to recover and if the chance is large enough to gamble your future.
-- Will program for bandwidth
Simple! Take the job offer at the new company and bring your friends' business cards with them. Part of the facts of life is that sometimes companies don't work out. If you truly believe your coworkers are talented, they should have no trouble getting jobs as well. But don't let management hold you back just because you think you have an obligation to support your friends who are as employable as you are.
-Ted
Personally I have gone down with enough sinking ships to know that that is no fun and not helpful to anyone. If the situation is really dismal and unlikely to change I think you owe it both to yourself and to your friends on the boat to get out. If it is not too legally dangerous I would give some of these friends a broad hint that seeking a lifeboat might be a real good idea.
The decision also depends on why you are there. You are the CTO. You presumably have a dream and a vision that you wanted to see become a reality or you wouldn't be the CTO (or am I being naive?). Is the dream still worth pursuing? Will the possible move elsewhere take you closer to it or further away?
Ultimately, do whatever is best for what most moves you that is congruent with taking care of you and yours.
Actually, many companies, especially tech companies are very dependent on one or a handfull of key techies. People are not interchangeable parts. It is not management's role to attempt to make them so. It is management's role to fan the sparks to create more vitally important people in the company.
...that you all seem to love to hate, maybe I can toss a different opinion into the mix, rather than all the 'bail, they're idiots' advice that seems to be common...
Have you discussed your dissatisfaction with your management? Have you come up with any ideas that might help the company get over this 'hump'?
Everyone seems to think that Managers are these 'super-people' that can conquer any problem, if they only put their mind to it... when in reality, they are just guys/gals like anyone else, trying to leverage their experience and ideas to keep a company moving... there is no 'magic forumla' to running a company. It is also a lot easier to find fault, than provide solutions.... The most important thing is that, without a doubt, everything these people do is with the purist of intentions: keep/grow the business. They may not make the same choices you would, but their heart is usually in the right place...
As for what to do, rather than discuss this with a VERY large group of STRANGERS, discuss it with your management. See what kind of people they REALLY are. See if they really want to make things good/better. Then make your decision.
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
You're totally missing the point. YOU HAVE TO THINK LIKE A SENIOR EXECUTIVE, not like a worker bee.
Basically, every failing company represents an opportunity. How far are you going to get at some stable company like, say, HP? And how quickly? Gee, there's only 50,000 engineers JUST LIKE YOU who work there.
So, think a minute. You know this company inside out. You probably even know what to do to fix it.
So what would induce you to stay at this sinking ship? I'm sure there's a price. Money, equity (no matter how remote the possibility of realizing it), a management position so you can fix what's wrong -- all of the above -- something.
The way an senior executive reasons about this is, OK, here's what I need to make this an OPPORTUNITY for myself rather than JUST A JOB.
A job is an employment CONTRACT, no different than a temporary job, because they can fire you at a moment's notice, and they will, if it suits them.
So, think about it clearly. Draw up what position you want, propose a compensation arrangement, lay out your plans for what you would do to turn things around, make an appointment with the CEO, and MAKE YOUR PITCH.
That's the best way to help yourself and your friends. If the CEO laughs you out of his/her office, then you move on, because you can't help anyone, including yourself.
Remember: YOU WERE LOOKING FOR A JOB WHEN YOU FOUND THIS ONE.
yo anon,
time to bail... for reals!
if you really want to keep your fab tech team together, wander into the haze and make one final appeal to the crack heads at the top: give them straight dope. If they can't/won't fix what's wrong, why keep bailing shit? get on with your life and keep in touch with your co-workers. If they are even half-way talented, they will have no problem finding another job and they can thank you later for getting them out of that lame job.
stu.
or, my favorite: 0012375 (unless i'm hvac1285)
about being easily replaced. this is true if you are a standard engineer. but if you are somebody who is resposible for people, and have a lot of experience with systems and processes, you are most often irreplaceable. no matter how good you are at documenting your work, you can't document everybody elses. and if you are a good lead engineer or program manager, there's no documentation that will replace you. and oh yea. bail now. put in two weeks notice, then try to hire away people who worked for you that are good. there's no such thing as company loyalty, but there is personal loyalty, and it goes a long way.
as a tech guy it's probably not his job to fix processes and communicate with management. that's management's job. and i agree with everybody about managers not being super people. managers tend to be promoted past their competence. ie, if you are doing your job well, you get promoted. if you do that well, you get promoted again. if you perform poorly, you don't get promoted, or demoted, you stay there, doing poor work, for however long you're around. and your assumption that managers all want to keep/grow the business...how does this account for all the politics that seems to go on in management?
is it really 'the company' that you're loyal to? some trademarked name and a logo? or is it a great leader with vision, and intelligent co-workers, who inspire your loyalty?
relliks post is really to the point. but there's one other thing, that if your company can't pay you that 5k-10k more that other companies can, and can't offer you benefits, options, growth/career oppurtunities that other companies can, do you really want to work for that company? they must be doing something wrong, somwhere...
actually, i don't really think this is true so much in contemporary japan, where companies have been laying employees off for 10 years. also this applies only to a medium portion of the job market, white collar workers at larger corporations.
its very, very difficult to make that argument for a huge defense contractor when your division has been owned by three different companies in 40 years (especially with the most recent acquisition being 4 years ago).
or sued later by the company you left.
Ya know, i never really got this. Stuff like noncompetes is in your employment contract, but it would seem to me once you leave, you are no longer employed, thus the contract is void.
It sounds like you have already made up your mind and just want to hear someone else agree with you. I left a good job at a company that going nowhere after being bought out. (It was also a 42 mile commute.) I looked for another position (hopefully closer to home) on and off for several years and all of a sudden had a few places to choose from. I was able to get a few co-workers from the old place to come over, including my former supervisor (who was the greatest boss I ever had) who is now a VP over here (and the C.E.O. and one of the founders of this place keep thanking me for finding him!)
Watch out for that, though. A lot of times there are clauses in your contract that prohibit you from recruiting from your old companies for a certain amount of time after you leave, specifically to prevent that. Of course, if the old company goes out of business, I would assume you are no longer bound by that.
Whoops, should have posted in Extrans. Sorry about the ugliness.
- Adam
I'm absolutely willing to believe that you're right. We had a project due on Japan in the 90's, and I got to do "Social Trends." One of the trends is a progression away from a group mentality and towards a more individual emphasis, and with that, people are less concerned about the success of their company. But, while declining, I'd imagine that this loyalty is still present for the most part today.
- Adam
I'm taking a course on the history of China and Japan at my high school, and have an interesting contribution.
In Japan, company loyalty is tremendous. People tend to value whatever organization they are in (family, company, country) over themselves, and as a result, things work out much better. I watched a video where an executive who works an 18 hour day, 6 days a week, comes home and says "I don't get overtime pay, I just want to make things work for the company."
The reason why company loyalty is so tremendous, besides the obvious group mentality, is because the company provides <i>everything</i>. You are chosen by a corporation when you go to a university based on how good the university is, and are usually assured (and even expected to have) lifetime emplyoment at that particular corporation. In return, you get gigantic bonuses, the company takes your suggestions seriously (I think it's something like 95% of employee suggestions at Honda are adopted into company policy), your boss doesn't have a seperate office and only makes 3 times as much as the guy in the mailroom, there are no cubicles, and the company provides for your house and family. There are planned outings for employees, morning exercise, and great benefits.
But, like I said, you are expected to devote yourself completely to the company. The overwhelming majority of Japanese voluntarily return their vacation time.
Anyway, just an interesting fact. Little relevance here. Main message: Just because you don't like where you work and have no loyalty to it, doesn't mean that doesn't exist anywhere in the world.
- Adam
Take your talented co-workers with you, and create a new company that's well-run. It sounds like the place where you're at is going to fold no matter what, so you don't have much to lose...
Tough position but ask yourself what would your friends do if the shoe was reversed? Be loyal to yourself and your family first.
We know this is a joke and all, and the whole kernel in Java thing really makes that clear, but I just have to point out one really important oft overlooked fact about MacOS.
Until, say system7.0 it wasn't considered a good idea to write any mac program in C. Why? Because the macOS and it's toolbox (ROM based) were all intended for use by Pascal programmers. I think this means a good deal of MacOS was written in Pascal... and then assembly of course, the latter being a mainstay of any OS in those pre-portability days.
-Daniel
Well... Companies don't have much loyalty to their employees either, bear that in mind.
I'm kind of surprised that almost every reply has been "leave", or some other form thereof. So in that respect, I agree with you.
Leaving may not necessarily be a bad choice, but it can't be as simplistic as "you get a better offer somewhere else, jump ship".
Of course, this person obviously doesn't appear to be doing that, so I don't see a problem. Incompetitant Management is a good reason to leave a company, as I'm facing that problem myself. Thanks to Management's amazing skill, I figure this place will be bankrupt in six months.
Of course, we have a laser printer for every three employees now, because Management wanted faster printing. This being despite that the one printer we had before sat idle nearly all day, and has not had more then two jobs queued up at once in about nine months.
If he is dealing with Management like I have to contend with, I can understand his wanting to leave. People like that don't deserve loyalty.
-- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
Nobody here can answer a question like that.
First of all, the real question isn't loyalty to the company. From the way you write it, it sounds like loyalty to those non-moronic co-workers, some of which may even be friends? Your not sounding worried about the company itself, you sound worried about them. Those are people. Thats an admirable trait.
Some questions you can ask yourself would include things like:
- Can I take some of them with me, and get them out of here into a better place?
- If I stay, am I just prolonging the inevitable, or can I actually save this place?
- Can they find better jobs easily if I leave, or are they going to be more or less fucked?
- How much do I really care about what happens to them?
My *advice* would be to sit down and quietly think about it (or pace, or whatever you do that helps you think). If you can take several of them with you, you could be doing them a huge favor, as well as yourself at the same time. If not, will your staying really make a difference, or will it just make it take that much longer for the incompetitant management to drive the company straight into the ground?
As I said, nobody can really answer this question for you, because it depends too much on what kind of person you are. Some people would do anything to protect their friends, others arent. Look at if you care. If you do care, look at how much good you can do in each situation, and try to pick the best one that you can live with doing.
Hopefully some of the posts in this thread get you thinking, maybe that will help you find the answers your looking for.
Good luck!
-- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
Loyalty : something management use to keep you under control while they screw up a perfectly decent company / product / project
Not that I disagree with you personally, I have to take issue with two of your comments.
First, you make mention of how "everyone seems to think that managers are these 'super-people'..." (emphasis not mine). While I definitely cannot speak for everyone, as you seem to be able to, I know I can speak for myself and many of the people I work with and have worked with in that past, when I say that this is hardly true. I know that managers are just 'regular people', and far more often than not, they are the ones who don't have the knowledge to actually do the work, but do have the belief that they can tell others how the work is to be done.
Only once in my entire career have I known a manager who truly understood the work/projects he was managing. Unfortunely, he was not one of my managers, but a friend's. He was an excellent programmer who had filled a managerial position on the project he was working on after the previous manager was promoted to higher levels. After a year he couldn't take dealing with management above him anymore and left for a startup company. Instead of being replaced by one of the other programmers who were equally skilled, a non-programmer was sent over to manage the project. Within two months, all but one member of the staff on the project had left the company in disgust. My friend has tried to weather the new manager as best as he can, but is now pursuing offers from other companies. He will be the last of the pre-new-manager staff to leave, causing a 100% turnover in under six months.
What triggered the ridiculous turnover was what I have begun to realize is typical of many managers who have no true understanding of what they're really managing. Promises were constantly made to other departments and higher level management with no consulting of his staff, ridiculous deadlines were constantly imposed, staff members were constantly being shuffled around in the project to meet each new far-fetched promise being made, and despite their efforts, staff members were never allowed to participate in any of the discussions that led to new promises and deadlines.
The new manager didn't care at all about how much damage he was doing to morale, how disillusioned his employees were becoming with all the changes in direction and having no input into anything, nor did he listen when his employees were trying to tell him things were not working out very well. His sole concern was looking good to other managers and the higher levels by committing to anything they asked him for.
Along the same vein, I also have to take issue with another point you make about managers: "without a doubt, everything these people do is with the purist of intentions". With the experiences my friends and I have had, this made me laugh out loud.
I have yet to meet a single manager myself whose intentions were not riddled with self-promotion, ego, blind ambition, and a total lack of respect for the fact that he/she is screwed without the blood, sweat and tears of his/her employees -- or a combination thereof.
There are most certainly good managers out there, and even some outstanding ones. You may well be one of those managers (largely because you don't sound like any manager I've ever known personally), but my experiences have always been with managers whose total lack of knowledge in their field has never hindered their outlandish promises, their expectations founded in crack-induced hallucinations, and their purely selfish and political motives aimed at bettering their own personal image at any cost to their employees.
If you can honestly say that you have never made a promise for a deadline or a project or anything else to another manager or higher up without first consulting with your employees, considering at full weight their input, and have never let creep in any ulterior motive (i.e. "if I promise them this feature and work my guys hard enough so they get it done, I'll look great and may get that promotion"), then I would love to know if you're hiring. If so, and if I'm competent and interested in the field in which you'll be hiring, I will file an application and send my resume very shortly.
My basic point is that you can't assume this guy's managers are as well-intentioned as you seem to be (and I truly would commend you on an excellent job if you've avoided the pitfalls I'm so apt to gripe about). While my optimistic side would have me believe that maybe I've just been unlucky with managers and that one day maybe I'll meet a manager that is competent and does truly have only good intentions for the employees and the company, that hope is quickly drowned out by two things. First, I'm not an optimist. Second, I see the same things happening to many of my friends and fellow programmers on an all too frequent basis.
So the question of "should I leave my job" is brings as much weight as "should I divorce my wife". I'm not saying it SHOULD be so, just that it is.
And I agree that you can detach yourself from your job. You can tell yourself that it's "just a job" and you can not work with friends, as you suggested. You can go a step further and not be friendly to anyone at work, in the off chance they become friends in the future.
But you risk leading miserable life. You certainly won't be happy at work... The guy "fooling himself", believing that his work makes a difference, may get a lot more out of his job, both in enjoyment and in productivity, than the guy who doesn't give a rat's ass.
Long and short of it is: do what makes you happy. If you're sitting at work and you feel that working an extra 2 hours a day is going to make the company a success, and you feel that the company being successful leads to your personal happiness, then go for it. If you're ambition is to open a restaurant and dedicate your life to making it work, go for it. Sure, it's still just a job, but you'll be a lot happier than serving bagels.
You're right, that's why we have such a low number of people getting divorced in the US. Hell, I'm not married, and I've been working for a smaller part of my life than I've been in school, but it doesn't mean I'll put blinders on and ignore what I see in people around me. So I'll correct the statement you quoted and put a "just that it is... to some people" on the end. Some people don't like their job, some people don't like their family life. Some people sacrifice one for satisfaction in the other, that's all I was trying to point out.
You really must think every company is just having a great time.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Go to work for a good company, then hire or give good references to your competent colleagues at your old company.
S
Being in a leadership position takes a particular commitment, and it can be hard to say when to give up. It constitutes an admission of failure, to some degree. Which is okay: we all fail at some point in our lives. The hard call is when.
I'd also recommend the counsel of friends and family. You freinds might see parts of the issue you can't. If your spouse is begging you to quit, it might be a strong sign.
'In knowledge is power, in wisdom humility.'
the ibm songbook
I was in the same shoes as you, not wanting to leave because of personal relationships. In the end, I did, mostly because it was good for ME.
My advice would be:
1. Talk to your staff one-on-one to explain the decision
2. Don't leave loose ends
3. Take some time off
4. Make sure your ex-staff understands that they can call you anytime, for anything.
5. Don't look back
Like you said, good opportunities don't come often, and they are a rarer in the current economic climate. Keep in mind that you (and only you) have to live with your decisions and that regret is hard to overcome.
Chances are, if the company is at this point, everyone is better off getting the pain over with...
HTH,
Chris.
-- I don't have a cool sig.
Frankly, if the CTO has created an organization that can't survive the replacement of the CTO, then that company hasn't had a good CTO and a change might in fact be beneficial for all concerned.
Leave them. They won't show you any loyalty, you don't owe them any.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
-- if I bail ship, the company will likely either fold or have to transform itself immensely, quite probably at the cost of the jobs of my friends Isn't that a little arrogant? What makes you think that they won't find a replacement? The world (and that company) don't revolve around you. Life (and the company) will go on without you.
It can be hard to leave a position when you know that your decision will adversely affect others. However, your first loyalty should be to yourself and your family. What is best, long-term, for the financial stability of your family? Of course, if you're single then you have added flexibility here; but you still should look at the long-term.
If you stay, and the company does fail, how long will it take to line up additional offers? Do either of these positions offer anything that could benefit your future career which your current position fails to provide?
Based on what little you've posted, I would recommend accepting one of the new positions; but then work closely with your current management to minimize the impact. If one of your friends is capable and well respected, recommend to management that he/she be promoted into your current position. This would do two things: 1) it leaves someone already known and respected to provide stability for the others, and 2) if the company does fail, that person will have an additional level of experience to put on his/her resume which they would nothave if you were to stay.
That's my take - best of luck.
Hmm... you say bad management has shafted the company. But your submit tag states you're an "Anonymous CTO".
Isn't CTO a management position? I certainly wouldn't call it a grunt.
Actually, no, we think they're super idjits who can't find their ass with both hands and a map. ;)
1) My former boss was fond of always telling us that "the graveyards are full of indespensible people". They'll make do without you.
2) The Director (reported to the General Manger, the top dog at that facility) that my former boss' boss reported to told us once that "you have to look out for yourself, the company won't do it, your boss won't do it, and you shouldn't expect your friends or your mama to do it". Did I mention this was a division of a large multi-national multi-product corporation?
Bottom line, you gotta do what's right for you. If your friends can't do what's right for them, then that is sadly their problem. You can give them advice, even point out that the proverbial writing is on the wall, but you should not sacrifice advancing yourself because they failed to take care of themselves. Obviously, you also shouldn't step on them, or intentionaly hamper their ability to advance themselves, but you have to look out for yourself first.
Merde, il pleut encore!
If your friends/co-workers are "quite talented" as you say, then they can fend for themselves.
You will probably be doing them a favor to leave. They are probably staying because you need them. (-:
what's wrong with trance?
Bail....your family and your well being comes WAYYYYY before your friends and co-workers.
Gorkman
Loyalty to shitty management is useless. The only reason I'd stay at a job like that is because of my friends, and even then I'd start working to make sure they knew I was leaving and were ready to jump ship with me. Unless you have a sizable financial stake in the company, there's no point in staying unless it's feasable that you could get management to let you call the shots to bring the company back up to where it needs to be (which isn't likely).
If they are really that bad, and it's going to go belly up, then take the job that let's you bring your friends with you.
LongTail SSH Brute Force analysis tool is here!
Go ahead and pursue the other offers. If the company survives, then great for your friends. If the company fails because you left, then it most likely wouldn't have lasted anyway.
Unix is user friendly, it's just selective about who its friends are.
Someone I knew on linuxnewbie.org last year got a job offer because people saw their responces to questions about programming.
They weren't able to take the job sadly because at the time they were only 15.
:P
I don't know...
I think it's a good thing to be help people out if you can. Last year I worked for a photo shop where the person who trained me left and I was the only person who could run the lab. I was honestly only person in our town who knew run the equipment.
In some ways, I wanted to quit that job but I knew my boss would be totally screwed if I did. So I stuck around and trained in two people to replace me. Then I left.
I don't regret staying around for that extra bit.
If you wanna take care of your friends, help em find real jobs.
Free Techno/Jazz/DNB/MI Music by guys obsessed with monkeys!
The hardest part is when it's above the CTO when stuff goes wrong. We were working in a startup on a piece of [non-Internet, BTW] software, and were about halfway through and word came down from on high that we had to switch directions and build something almost totally different, or at least different enough so that we couldn't leverage anything -- okay, we reused the disk space.
But that turn lost us a lot of time, and considering that we were a startup and the first round of money had a finite life, it was definitely not a good thing to do. And to top that off, right after the first internal delivery, upper management discovered that the software really didn't look that good, so we had to "tweak" the UI. Right around this time, we ran out of money right when the NASDAQ was cratering, and the group that was providing the next round of funding pulled out after promising that they'd give us the money. Oops.
But nothing is as sad as seeing a good CTO that has to drag his people (me included) into a conference room to tell us all that we've run out of money and it's time to pack up. Especially after he worked his butt off getting the group put together. To give him more credit, he had the good sense (and humanity) to line us up with some job opportunities, especially for the young guys just out of college. There's nothing like seeing a lot of good talent that you've spent time developing just walk out the door. And what's even funnier, upper management acted like nothing happened, or at least nothing worse than a stubbed toe. One clueless upper management individual wanted more improvements done to the product when some of us came back in the next week gratis to put the software to bed proper.
Would I work for this CTO again? In a heartbeat.
As a coda, the second round investors are making their investment conditional on removing the clueless upper ones. But it may be too late to jump start it because the senior developers have left, and continuing to pay for the office space, etc., while any new developers come up to speed won't get the software out the door before the (minimal) funding runs out. Do I feel bad for leaving the company when they need the old developers so badly.? Nope. But the competition is pretty much where we were, so it doesn't matter anyway.
DT
--
Is this thing on? Hello?
It seems to me that your company is going to collapse either way, you'd be better off taking care of yourself and not worrying about your co-workers. If they really are as talented as you say, they'll land on their feet.
As for the company itself? Remember, they'd sack you in a heartbeat if it would make them profitable. Companies are *not* people, they give no loyalty, and they deserve none.
I went up to the top to see if the moderator had marked it "Funny". I would have.... new social order... HAHAHAHAHA. Corporations are organizations formed by a group of investors to get a return on their investment. They have absolutely no loyalty to you... if things got rough enough, they'd fire you in a heart beat. And if things got really really good, its the investors, not the employees that really really benifit. Sacrifice now, and loose your job down the line when you are no longer "feisable". Yea! That's the new social order I tell you.
BAIL.
.com that was failing majorly, morale was low, there was MAJOR fighting in top management about direction and our feeble product couldn't sell. The smart people recgonized things weren't going to get better and we're all happy at new positions now. The people that stuck around now are putting up with round after round of layoffs and have finally begun to look for new positions.
If your upper management is THAT incompetient then they don't deserve your loyality. In the end it should be survival of the fittest. If you're smart you'll know when to get off the sinking ship before you go down with it.
I worked for a
How can you believe in your company when your company doesn't believe in you?
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
Do what you can for fellow workers, most likely you'll do better for them by going elsewhere and giving them good references.
You owe no loyalty to your managers. That's OK, managers owe you no loyalty either.
Ed Craig "Who cares what you think?" George W. Bush, 4th of July 2001
I've been in this situation doing volunteer work, and I tell you, it's a thousand times worse when you actually care about the *clients*, but can't get past stupid agency that's supposed to be serving them. When its time to start doing prozac or quit the job, quit the job. If you're really that valuable to the company, negotiate with the management over how to run the company. If they won't change, you can't overcome that. If they offer you a raise if you'll just "shut up and work", bail. If they reform enough to have some prospects of success, you can pursue a labor of love if it seems worthwhile. Otherwise it's not going to be worthwhile.
What did you promise your co-workers? If you promised them you would not quit no matter what then you have to balance that commitment to the commitment you have to yourself and your family. By the way, are your co-workers so ignorant of the situation that they cannot predict that people, including yourself, will be quitting? They are probably already floating their own resumes. Bottom line is: you don't want to hurt people, but you want to take care of yourself. If you do decide to move on, try to think of ways that you might help the people whose lives will be disrupted.
Test 1 2 3 4
You really have to get out of there. If you're getting multiple offers from other businesses, then apparently there's a market for workers of your caliber. If your coworkers are as talented as you say, then they should have no trouble finding work when they follow your lead and move on.
Love, Stu
I'm also in a drastically similar situation. I've come to the following conclusions;
o Would your co-workers "stick it out" for your well being?
o If it turned out to be convenient, would management lose you without a second thought?
o Chances are too likely that YOU'RE COMAPNY IS NOT LOYAL TO YOU.
o What are the chances of your company crashing and leaving your friends w/o jobs anyway?
o Are they paying you competitive pay (I'm sure your CEO probably has enough to go sailing )?
o Can you see a pattern in bad management decisions (if they screw up often enough in the past, you know they'll do it again in the future)?
o Are you content?
My company laid off about half it's workforce on valentine's day (we termed it the v-day massacre). Ever since then I've been debating whether to "move on" or "stick it out". I think I'm ready to go.
----Quid
----Quid
Less talk, more caffeine
But beyond that, [note to moderators: tag this as 'no-brainer'] it sounds as if your real decision is which offer to take.
I have a wife and kids. And from that perspective, I know that life is hard enough without having to stave off hunger, look for a job w/o an income (cuz you hung on til they did go belly up), go daily to a job you can't take anymore, or have to work with people/in a system that makes you want to pull dead-strands-of-material-that-keeps-your-head-warm out.
Let me ask you these two questions?
Galego
Que Deus te de em dobro o que me desejas
[May God give you double that which you wish for me]
Capitalism is not about whether we decide to empower people or we empower legal entities to behave as people. Capitalism is about pursuing wealth for yourself, be you a company or a person. Do you really love that companies have more rights than you do?
Don't believe they do?
A company can, through willful planning precipitate the deaths of human beings (Union Carbide anyone?) but is not eligible for the death penalty (aka liquidation). Couple hundred years ago a company could receive the death penalty, known as a revocation of its charter.
If you think the company has no future, bail. Bottom line.
If you want what's best for your team, be in a position to help them when the ship sinks. You can't be there for them when you're going down yourself.
Saw this on a Post-it note a long time ago... "I work for money. You want loyalty, buy a dog!" Do you have a close, personal relationship with your CTO and COO? I doubt it. They don't tend to foster those with people they don't respect (as evidenced by them not taking good advice from those who know the job). Do what is best for you in the LONG run... Don't change jobs without a good reason, or a job to go to, and back up those who need you and you call friends. Good luck!
I ended up bagging it. I loved working there, and would have loved to have seen it get out of it's problems. I however was not the one who got the company into the problem in the first place. All my efforts really never got me anything. The upper management bought Mercedes sport cars, Mustang convertibles, etc. I worked 7 days a week, and had no life. A good check at the end of the week, but not a GREAT check.
If I was in the situation again, I'd be looking for other work right now. You have to watch out for #1 (YOU!) before anything else.
--
It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
I moderate therefore I rule!
--
Get another job...
As a result, I did not receive my last paycheck when I, along with my co-workers, were laid off. Other bad stuff is still creeping out of the woodwork now.
Lemme tell you, as a skilled IT worker, I have plenty of offers -- buu missing that last 2 weeks and missing 2 weeks while interviewing -- it is leaving a mark.
I have a young family and a new house and not a lot of savings, but even if I was single, 4 weeks without pay could be detrimental.
Leave now for you and your family's sake. Do your best to warn your friends without stepping any legal boundaries for your sake. Sort of a cross between "blood is thicker than water" and "treat others as you would have them do unto you".
See thou character. Give thy thoughts no tongue,
Nor any unproportioned thought his act.
Be thou familiar, but by no means vulgar.
Those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried,
Grapple them to thy soul with hoops of steel;
But do not dull thy palm with entertainment
Of each new-hatch'd, unfledged comrade. Beware
Of entrance to a quarrel, but being in,
Bear't that the opposed may beware of thee.
Give every man thy ear, but few thy voice;
Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.
Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man,
And they in France of the best rank and station
Are of a most select and generous chief in that.
Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
This above all: to thine ownself be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
If possible, take the good employees with you when you leave. I have followed my current boss to three different employers.
Kent
It sounds to me like you will choose to leave this job, so rather then tell you want you already know here are a few things you can do to help your company:
:). We can never assume that a company will fold on our account :).
(1) Give them as much notice as possible. Rather than wait here for more posts tell your boss right away that you are planning to leave and give them lots of time before your actual leave.
(2) Offer to help them find a replacement (by participating in interviews, recuiting, etc)
(3) Document everything that you do. This would obviously help in the transition.
(4) This helps a lot in tech world; You can offer to stay on for a week after the new person is hired (if within your "grace" period), and help "train" the person.
I've left a couple of companies, and because I did all of the things I mentioned, I still enjoy a great relationship with the people than run the joint. Just in case they actually do well, and I'm looking to return
w o r l d w i d e w e b e r
If you're concerned about your friends there, tell them you're jumping ship and give them as much warning as possible. That way they can bail out, also, without necessarily getting cornholed too badly.
Jump Ship. There is NO reason for you to stay with a dying company. Give your friends good references. Feel no guilt. You'll be kicking yourself for losing those job offers whent the comany does fold.
http://www.matthewmiller.net
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
Lie back on my couch, look at all my (nonexistant) psychology diplomas, and tell me the first thing that you think of when you wake up in the morning. The odds are >90% that it's one of the following:
- Cool, today I'll get to work on that project my boss is letting me tinker with.
- Fuck. More goddamned work.
If you truly enjoy what you're doing at work, then you're not working -- you're doing what you enjoy, and you happen to receive a paycheck! Bonus!If, however, you hate what you consider to be a papershuffling, nonenjoyable, piece-of-shit job, then cut your losses, if any, and bail. It's quite simply not physically or mentally healthy to continue doing something you loathe.
--
Go to one of the other offers, and accept. Then, go back and tell off every excreble middle-manager in your current job. Tell them in excruciating detail where, why, and how they moved the company in the wrong direction. Then, try your best to offer your co-workers as an existing well-honed team to your new employer.
I think the point regarding this comment is that if the person who sent in the Ask Slashdot submision knows what should be done, how the company could survive, why the hell isn't he/she the manager? In most cases, I'd think what someone would do would say "ok, I know how to do things better, so I'm going to go find a company where I can do them." I doubt it's possible for him to go to the management and say "you people have really screwed up, let's switch jobs so I can take a shot at it." I suppose such an attempt might be worth it if he/she already has a solid alternative lined up -- as in, another job -- but does anyone actually picture it working?
I think the important thing is what's ethical when considering issues of corporate loyalty. It is unethical to jump ship in order to get money for bringing trade-secret-type information to a competitor. It is unethical to make a false committment to a company's project and then (barring an extremely good reason, of course) bail when they are depending on you to do what you said you would. It is certainly ethical to watch out for your personal welfare and leave a failing company.
You have to take care of yourself. I was in a very similar situation, and every single person (at least the one's I cared about) found jobs the same week the company "re-structured".
When punk rock is outlawed, only outlaws will have punk rock.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Once you get to senior level executives its not always good to jump around a lot, but its a small company, you sound obviously unhappy, and if your co-workers are really taltend and with low morale if you leave they can surely find more work elsewhere given the current demand patterns for IT workers... That leaves you with the guilt of causing the company to fold? If you are the one holding it up and management continually makes stupid decisions do you really want to be assocaited?
I would not, thats my opinon at least.
Jeremy
If your company can't get things right - leave it.
If the management is so incompetent that they can't make enough money despite the fact that they have talented workers - then it is not your responsibility to save the company
As far as people are concerned: if they are really talented then they should find themselves a good place instead of a "fucked company"(TM). You can try to bring them with yourself if you feel like that they can't care for themselves :) - an experienced
team is valuable thing, many would welcome it heartily.
So, to put it short: leave!
Real life is overrated.
Your loyalty to the company ends when its loyalty to you ends. They obviously didn't care enough to make wise manegerial choices that would have kept the company from going under. Therefore, your job didn't really mean that much to the company. You've gotta do what's best for you, and bail.
Being hired by a company doesn't imply you owe them fealty. But they can earn it, by being loyal to you.
-Erf C.
-Erf C.
Cthulu always calls collect...
After 20 years with a manufacturing company, my father was laid off in a recession during the early 80's. I was six years old, and it taught me a valuable lesson: Employers owe you nothing.
Nowadays, stories of layoffs and cutbacks from large companies are routine. I myself work for a large national financial company, and have survived 2 rounds of layoffs in my three years here. After each wave, morale is low, loyalty is nonexistant, and upper management has the gall to wonder why people are unhappy. It's really very simple. People around here have figured out that the company can and will screw them if needed. The smarter employees are just here to collect a paycheck by selling their labor. In a way, it's a bit sad and dysfunctional.
I have adopted an oath that I remind myself of when I start with a new employer.
1) I will give 110% to this employer. I will work hard. I have no problems with coming in early or staying late. If I work for a company, I will believe in it. I will be unwaiveringly loyal to my company as long as I work there.
2) I will be compensated fairly. If I take on more responsibilities, I expect to be paid more. If not, I will raise the issue with my superiors. 3) I will take as much training and experience as I can from the job.
4) At some point, this employer-employee relationship will end. That is just the simple nature of labor and work these days. Long gone are the days of spending your whole career with one company. Even 10 years is rare.
The time will come when I realize that I must move on. Whether that be impending layoffs, or an unfavorable change in culture. If you don't leave on your terms, you will leave on the company's terms, and that may not be pretty.
One final note regarding your friends. Your actions towards them define your reputation and character. True, they're not as important as yourself or your family, and if you leave, they probably won't hate you. They'll probably understand. However, if you all feel the same way about your company, and you try to find something for them, it's nothing but positive karma for you. I've had two managers here that have left to go work for other companies. Both asked me to join them in their new companies. Although I declined, I still keep close contact with them because I remember what they've done for me. I consider them people of integrity, and am proud to call them my friends.
It's kind of you to think about your co workers, --but I believe you need to jump ship. Don't pass up great opportunities over a company that is going to die. Get out of there while you still can! The longer you stay, the more chances you have of getting stabbed in the back. (It very well may happen.)
You should sit down and talk with the coworkers you call friends, and let them know how you feel. Tell them you think the company is doomed, and have some better outlook on the horizon. If the company is as bad as you make it sound, then they are aware of the situation too. They may be staying just to wait and see if their friends leave. If you talk it out with your friends, maybe you can work together to make sure that everyone has their future secured somehow.
Four times in six years? Wow. Choose one:
(a) That's some coincidence!
(b) Boy, you sure can pick the losers.
(c) You're not doing anyting to, uh, contribute to the demise of these companies, are you?
I guess I can understand the speculative plays. Noting ventured, nothing gained, eh? Personally, after one or two I'd be looking for something nice and stable. But then, I'm no Mac programmer....
I've been in a similar situation twice (although with 2 differents role(once as an employee and lately as an officer)) My advice would be : don't make the mistake to stay on a sunking ship to be loyal... loyalty only mean that you must not betray other people who rely on you, but face iy : if you stay it will only make the agony last... By the way we could expand this notion of loyalty : be loyal is to respect your part of your contract as long as the company respect his part ( are you sure they respect all the terms, are you sure you get all you deserve, all they promised ?) When a company fired someone for economical reason, everybody finds it normal (it's necessary for the wealth of the society...) Why should you feel guilty then ? In my experience, the main problem was the other employees (some are friends), I thought like you that If I leave they'll eventually leave their job. But the fact is that if I leave some of them will take new responsabilities and evolve. My salary isn't as high as I want but If I leave it will be one less weigth on the balance... I've stood in the society, an small startup now becoming a tiny classical society with no evolution for all my (our) sacrifices. And what I see now is people leaving because anyway a bad job is a bad job... And when something doesn't work you have to try something else... A lot of people have difficulties (I do) to re-adapt their judgment to the new facts and end things to start something news. Forget the moral judgements and balance all the positive/negative aspect for you and the people you care... I think the things will be clearer... I could go for our on this subject, but I'll just ask you : Do you have a family ? If yes you owe more to your family than to your society : EVOLVE ! accept better propositions...
I made the jump when I no longer had a choice. You still do. But remember, you can only help yourself sometimes. Do the best you can, and have meetings with your co-workers. Inform them of your intentions and fears. Work together.
...thats co-worker loyalty. I'm not saying thats a bad thing, just different.
It sounds to me like you need to appraoch managment and say, do/change these things or I'm leaving. since you have job offers, you have the power to stand up and attempt to force these changes. What are they going to do, fire you? big deal you got offeres.
If the people you work with are as talanted as you believe they will find work.
Another thing to consider, if managment keeps making bad decisions, your co-workers will be looking for work soon anyways.
From what a read, perhaps you should consider starting your own company?
Even though the VC money is slowing down, it's still ther, plus there are a few Government programs for new business(assuming US).
In my experience, the company only cares for the company, so after being burned by the concept of company loyalty, I pretty much make my decisions on whats best for my family, company second. Now I make more money, and I'm happier then I've ever been with my work.
The last thing to consider is "How great is your 'product' anyways?" Is the company doing something that can make invester a lot of money?or at lest give the investers the impression that it will make them a lot of maoney fast?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
This sounds oddly like my previous employer. I have spent the last 10 years between 4 failed startups...the first 3 I rode out through missed paychecks and empty promises util I had ruined my credit, strained my relationship with my wife and missed alot of opportunites for training...I guess the .com millionaire prospects were just too enticing. My last employer decided after 4 years to take the company in "a new direction" and one by one let go of all the IT staff in favor of outsourcing, I was the last to be "let go" after being promised that I would at least be kept on so ther would be one admin on staff. Coincidently I was let go the week after I had finished building the company intranet. 3 weeks following my being "let go" they called to say they had a major hardware crash and the outsourcing company couldnt be there to fix it until the following monday...I was told I should care since I was a stock holder...
The moral to the story....very few companies are worth your loyalty in this business, if its deemed in the companies interest they would just as soon screw you anyway. Your fellow employees if they are competent should have no trouble finding work, if they are not...they will have to face reality.
Bail while you can, if management is as bad as you say, then you have absolutely nothing to gain. I can cite no example of any sinking .com that suddenly found sucess by "shifting focus" the need to shift IMHO shows a lack of solid ideals for the company to start with.
Slashdot is jumping the shark. I'm just driving the boat.
Although the law states otherwise, corporations and business organizations are not people in my eyes and therefore deserve no loyalty. Think of it in terms of an inanimate object like a can opener. If the can opener doesn't work for you, ditch it. Why one would have an emotional attachment to a can opener is beyond me. An employer is no different. IT professionals are notoriously idyllic and loyal. You owe them nothing and they owe you everything you put into them.
Trolls, it must be cool to be that bored.
But I couldn't.
The Invisible Hand was not helping me, but hindering not just me but my entire sector. I stuck it out and earned almost nothing for it. Boo.com on the other hand paid well and I was carefull enough to be able to exit gracefully before it went tits up.
Plenty of people who lost their jobs when it finally did shut down walked right into new, better jobs. And that's the rub. You may think you are doing your fiends, this company,and your karma a favour by slogging through the hard times to finally make it, but you are letting visions of rocky, hold back your own, and your fiend's careers.
There's nore novelty in the future than there has been in the past, because the univese of possibilities is open ended.
Oh and change is as good as a holiday.
I used to have a better sig than this, but I got tired of it
That's a good question. If you want to be very precise, I'm probably loyal to the founder of the company more than anything else. But they're not really separable, and I don't think there's any point to making a distinction. You could probably make the same argument for any organization.
The evaluation of an action as 'practical' . . . depends on what it is that one wishes to practice.
Sorry to sound like a wimp, but there are some aspects I'm not entirely comfortable discussing here.
But it's not that uncommon. A compelling vision is a good way to get people working hard together, which can lead to business success. And a business provides certain incomparable opportunities to the visionaries. So it makes perfect sense that some businesses are fueled by a vision. Obviously, you can't ignore the financials, but there's a big difference that and being focused on money. It may be a balancing act, but it can be done.
The evaluation of an action as 'practical' . . . depends on what it is that one wishes to practice.
There are many reasons why a company may be a much better vehicle for a dream, a vision, or a value than a non-profit. If you can't see this, I can only imagine that you're hopelessly anti-capitalist. But I work for such a company, and it's amazing.
The evaluation of an action as 'practical' . . . depends on what it is that one wishes to practice.
I've never observed any such thing -- in nearly a quarter-century of working in this business.
What I have observed is that those in power in any company will always act in their own self-interest, and if that happens to accidentally benefit those below them, then this is a happy coincidence. Obviously, this is rarely the case -- when is that last time you heard of a manager, who, when ordered to lay off members of his/her staff, took the bullet for one of them and resigned in order to save one of their jobs?
Or when's the last time you heard of a top-level executive, who, upon receiving a multi-million dollar bonus, shared some of it with the people who did the hard work that made it possible? Or better yet, with those people who were laid off in order to make the company profitable and thereby earn the bonus from the board of directors?
You owe them nothing -- beyond what you may have legally agreed to if you signed an employment agreement.
Yes, this is cynical. It's also sad. But the days when you could actually expect some tiny measure of humanity, compassion, understanding, and loyalty are, unfortunately, behind us. You can now expect greed, unbridled self-interest, misinformation, mismanagement, and more greed.
Plan your career accordingly.
If it makes you feel better about leaving your friends behind: if the company is so shaky that any one employee leaving dooms it, then they're screwed anyway.
My mom is not a Karma whore!
This is a dangerous line of thinking... As far as I can tell, it started with Ford and the creation of the assembly line. A person owed their life to the company, and put all of their faith in security in them. It's summed up pretty well in The Flivver King. If we want to remain "free", we can't give our loyalty to any corporation, because they have no loyalty to us! If everyone remains loyal to their profession instead of their company, I believe you will start to see results in the form of people being treated better by their companies.
I modded the Troll Investigation and I got
But here's what to do: talk to your coworkers, explain the score, and then don't be surprised when they say "go for it!", "that's great!".
Chances are, they just need a little incentive to go make their lives better, too. The mistake I keep making in this situation is not giving my coworkers enough credit.
Go ahead and talk to them straight up. I bet you'll be surprised. :-)
S.
sorry, all these threads have been using different ways of saying that, and this is my personal favorite :P
Management is responsible for staffing concerns, not you.
If you are so pivital to the project, then it's management's problem not yours.
If the company is doing so poorly, then the decision will be made for you within the year even if you do nothing.
Leave. Stay. Either way, be honest and remember what you are responsible for and what is out of your control.
Jumping immediately to another interesting company is a really good way to keep your spirits up. If you can bring some of the good people with you, go for it. They'll appreciate it because they know that you aren't responsible for them but will deeply appreciate it. Good for building loyalty and/or friendships.
From what you wrote, you've already made up your mind -- probably a few moments before pressing the submit button.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
The normal agreement between employee and employer is as follow, I will continue to work for you as long as benefits me, and on the companies side, we will employ you as long as it benefits us. When one side is not benefitting, termination of this agreement usually follows. If your company was not satisfied with your work, would they keep you as an employee? Rarely do we find this to be the case. Why should the converse not be regaurded with equal importance. If you an unsatisfied with your job, if it looks like your employer is going down and taking you with him or her, then you need to get out. In business all warriors are cold warriors, are they not? Self love is not nearly so great a sin as self neglect. Your loyalties should be tied to your purse strings.
I can't think of why you would have any loyalty to the company at all (to the point of thinking of leaving)? Sure, they pay you, and maybe give you other stuff, but you give them stuff too: your time. So nobody should owe anybody anything right now. What kind of "loyalty" does the company have for you?? If you answer anything other than "nothing", think again.
-bluebomber
The Daily Build
There's a difference between being a CxO and being anything else in the company. Any company officer has obligations and responsibilities well beyond those of an employee. When you accepted the Chief Technology Officer role, you accepted those obligations too. That's why we CTOs get compensated at such high levels - you're an executive, and you don't necessarily get to think and act just for yourself.
You're going to bail, just like all the (mostly employee) folks here suggest. Right now you're just looking to feel better about your decision. That's clear from your statements, as others here have pointed out. So when you go to your next company, ask yourself these questions: "Am I comfortable being responsible for more than just my own and my family's livelihood? Or would I just like to draw a paycheck and make decisions based on me and mine?" If the answers are "no" and "yes", don't go for a CTO job, because you don't want the troubles that come with the job.
I've been in this situation four times in the last six years. The chances that things will turn around are about zero no matter how hard you work -- cut your losses and bail now, trust me on this one.
:)
You only feel like a jerk the first time
My advisor in graduate school always used to say, "you have to look out for yourself because no one else is." It may sound selfish, but it holds much truth.
9 days after my last day the company folded and laid off all employees (64 of them). To make matters worse the company couldn't afford to pay people their last paycheck (work they already had done + vacation balances). So now there are a lot of out of work people who didn't even get paid what they had coming to them. Now they can't afford to be as selective in finding new work, plus there is more competition for what jobs there are.
If I learned anything from this situation it's to not ignore your instincts.
bail ... and quickly.
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
I'd bail, dude. Take the best offer, find some places for your buddies if you have the opportunity, but look out for number one and BAIL.
/. reader... Chad, chime in if ya want. At least we're on topic!
I'm going through the exact same decision-making process right now. The ISP I've been a part of for nearly a year has made some really BAD financial decisions in the last few months, and hasn't been able to pay some rather important bills, and was cut off by the local phone company (yesterday at 14:30ish). Dead in the water, it seems. I'm optimistic that the powers that be will dilligently search for hats to pull rabbits out of, but I'm only going to be that optimistic until Monday.
I have no offers and no prospects. Hell, I hadn't even thought about it until yesterday. But talent and work ethic will prevail, I won't stay unemployed long. And even a failed dotcom looks good on a résumé (as long as you weren't management), right?
Our sysadmin is a daily
You can't take the sky from me!
Companies waste too much time pandering to employees who threaten to leave. My policy has always been firm--if an employee talks publicly about leaving, I show him the door.
You leaving the company would be like taking my fist out of a bucket of water--there will be no hole where my fist was.
Go!
and by that I include coders and us admin types should have no problem in this economy finding jobs. It sounds to be like the end has come. I would take another offer, the good talented people will be ok and in a perfect world the bad ones would be out of work but they will most likely find jobs also.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
Why make yourself miserable?
/. is a commercial entity. goto slashdot.com
I was in the same position as you just a short time ago. I had put resumes out and was working for a Regional ISP. I wore many hats there and towards the end, had to fire many people, all of whom friends. Just so happens that I got fired because I wasn't doing MY job. That's true...I was doing everyone elses job that they made me fire. So YES!! Leave ASAP. Companies do some strange things when they're in thier Death-Robes.
"I think you know what I'm talkin' about, Mr. President; We're gonna kill us a mummy!" - Bruce Campbell as Elvis Presley
Pretty true. But Marxist communism is the ideal form of government(or lack thereof, he does say that eventually there will be no need for government). It all boils down to who has the money. Technologically inclined people are in an odd spot though. We support civil liberties, which makes us Democrats(If you will forgive my comparison to American politics), yet we also have money available to us if we go into the right field. This makes us Republicans. We are, so to speak, the stem cells of educated people. The liberal arts may be the only area that we don't neccessarily excel in.
"Gravity is a myth, the earth sucks."
You must remember your purpose of working in the first place - to make money to live your life, retirement, etc. There is no reason to have to stick with a company that may not provide you with the money (the reason you worked there in the first place).
I work so I can live life as I please.
Moon Macrosystems. Sun's biggest competitor.
Robot: Danger! Danger! Alien career change approaching! Flee! Flee for you life young Will!
Will: Okie Dokey, Robot!
I dont' know about you but Boomers are really starting to cheese me off --- Me
There are always other options to bailing out and leaving everyone in the lurch. Perhaps you can talk to the people offering you the new jobs, and (in light of the current situation in finding qualified employees) get them in process as well. It could turn into a win-win for you and your associates. After all, if your current company is going to "eat it" at your leaving, try to help out those who you feel are most worthy, both in personality and in ability. God knows they will appreciate it, too. Plus, what does it hurt to build up some positive Karma points.
It just does get better than this!
You are being un-realistic. Management should be in touch with the workforce and have a good feel for the situation. If the management are not aware of the situation, then they are not doing their job. Such people are not likely to take kindly to having their short-comings pointed out to them.
2) There are other companies and opportunities out there. Your co-workers will manage just fine, especially if they are as talented as you say they are.
3) 90% of the problems in any organization are directly or indirectly the fault of poor management. If they have done badly to this point, there is little reason to believe things will change now.
4) If you can help some of your co-workers later on, by all means do so. You never know when you might need a hand later on. Karma ya know?
5) A job is a contract (of sorts) between you and your employer. They reimburse you, usually financially but sometimes in other ways, for the use of your skills and time. The details of this agreement are largely what each party is willing to agree to and is highly flexible. If the work for whatever reason is not worth the compensation you are getting, (financial or otherwise) then excercise your right as one of the parties and move on with your life.
...i don't get em. i'm sure there are alot of pivotal people in alot of organizations the world over. i'm sure their organizations would be hurt if they left - but it isn't going to destroy everything that remains behind. not if there really was something there to begin with.
your first responsibility in business is to yourself. you cannot hold yourself responsible for the position that a company is in (unless you made the decisions to get them there). you cannot hold yourself accountable for the results of your moving on. you cannot hold yourelf accountable for your friends well-being.
if they need to find new jobs - that cannot be your fault. if management was competent they wouldn't be in this situation. and if you see impending doom - then your friends must see it as well. i'm sure you've talked about it before with them. it seems everyone in your situation knows the score. their decisions are their own - as are yours.
the company has no loyalty to you. if you weren't performing to their expectations, they'd replace you. so why feel bad when they aren't performing to your expectations, and you replace them?
there is no loyalty in business. there's honesty, and integrity - and that's all you need to worry about.
// "Can't clowns and pirates just -try- to get along?"
You know very well that my post did not indicate any contempt at all for people serving bagels. In fact, it indicated contempt for a system that pretends to reward hard work, where the truth is that rewards come from only one thing: being in the right place at the right time.
In fact, you're using a sly argumentative technique where you pretend not to understand what I'm saying so as to cloud the issue. You are betting that other people who read this post will get confused and think that I have contempt for people who serve bagels, which is not the case.
Don't post on slashdot. Get back to work.
I can't even understand why there is even a CONCEPT of company loyalty. What are you being loyal to? What are you even talking about? Throughout the ages, human beings have been loyal to things like religious causes, their nation or ethnic group, their families... where it actually MEANT something. Who has ever heard of being loyal to a company? Think about it -- what does a company stand for? Making money. Selling widgets. Commerce. That's it, it's totally shallow. If you really believed in what you were doing, you wouldn't try to make any money from it, you would be running a NON PROFIT ORGANIZATION!
The dot com thing and the startup cult mentality thing have gotten people so confused they don't even remember that it's JUST A JOB. And by the way, that's why you shouldn't go to work with your friends.
I think the problem is that your typical Ivy League educated kid jumps right out of school and into one of these dot com cults and thinks it a way of life or a belief system. Get some perspective. I worked for years at delis and as a secretary and whatever before I went back to school and got a batchelors in Comp Sci. Now I've got a different job that pays more money. But it's still not that different from when I went to work every day to serve bagels to somebody. It's hard to believe in bagels. I guess it's a little easier to fool yourself into thinking you believe in software.
"Loyalty"? Give me a break.
Don't post on slashdot. Get back to work.
First, when I am asked about loyalty to the company, I readily answer, "I will give my employer every single ounce of loyalty that I feel I am getting from it." So I believe that there is definitely a relationship between what you owe the company and what the company as a whole owes you.
Second, and I think in this case more imortant, is this a situation where the company is in a rolling death-spiral? Every passenger gripping their seat cushions, braced for impact? A situation where anyone who doesn't bail out is going to find him/herself smashed to bits on the ground below? If that is the case, then you must grab for the parachute and bail out. Your coworkers will understand, and they will recover, and they are probably searching frantically for their own parachutes too. If this company is truly doomed, then by staying you are only postponing the inevitable.
On another note, consider the precariousness of any company whose continued existence relies on the presence of one person. If you get hit by a bus tomorrow (god forbid), does that mean that the company would go under? Again, if this is the case, the ship is not stable enough to stay airborn. You and all the other passengers must rush for the emergency exits now!
On the other hand, if this company has true potential, and will probably succeed in the long run, reaping great rewards for those who lumbered through the hard times, then you should stay and keep it on course.
As always, just my two-cents.
Uncle Sam sent me to the Persian Gulf, and all I got was this lousy Syndrome!
I once worked a job where the company was losing money from week to week. The only reason bills were still being paid was because employees weren't being paid...
I was in a position similar to yours; without me, the business couldn't remain open. Weeks passed, every now and again someone would get a little money, but never the back wages due. I kept holding out, being broke, and hoping that, if I just held on a little longer, things would turn around.
Well, that went on for a couple of months before the business finally died altogether.
I didn't do anyone any favors by hanging on as long as I did. More money was lost, more debt was accumulated, more bad feelings were generated among all those involved. Hanging around for so long only made things more difficult and more costly, in more ways than one.
Maybe I should have asked myself three questions:
Sometimes you just have to let it go and move on... sounds like this might be one of those times.
Good luck with your choice.
I may be from the old school...But I would assume the easy answer to this question is:
Your loyalty ends when the paychecks end -- anything less and then you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Why does it have to be any more difficult than that?
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
...and as long as you feel there is enough upside, I say stick it out... Having trouble with financing is par for the course, so I would not worry too much about that... (unless your pay cheque bounces)
However, if you find yourself doubting managment decisions, or the direction of the company, well, you should probably cut your losses.
I am become Troll, destroyer of threads
I've seen a variation on this in the Franklin Covey time management seminar...
*shrug*
E.
www.randomdrivel.com -- All that is NOT fit to link to
Build Your Own PVR/HTPC news, reviews, &
Don't be surprised if your underlings are staying around out of loyatly to you. I was in a similar situation with a group of great people that were being led by incompotents right to the gallows. We were staying for each other, not for the company. Once we realized this and broke apart, we each ended up much happier, and in much better jobs. You could be doing your coworkers a big favor by leaving.
For the LOVE OF GOD, STAY!
Sorry, but after reading all the other comments, someone had to present the other opinion. Jeez, I feel all dirty now. Ah screw it, jump ship anyway...
------
Let me give you the lowdown
Netpliance?
I'd rather have someone respond than be modded up.
Why does a consulting firm need funding? The only thing you're selling is labor, right? There should be basically zero overhead for equipment, maybe a server or two for web/e-mail. Assuming the consultants are any good, they should be able to generate enough overhead to keep the revenue flowing. Maybe it's just my experiences in the consulting world, but generating cash wasn't much of a problem as long as I worked hard. We could always make enough money to pay the people who weren't billing (secretary, etc).
there are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots
When it comes to the workplace, where do loyalties end and responsibilities to oneself begin?
Exactly the same place as their loyalty to you. If they were a large multinational company that would sack 1,000 programmers in an instant, if it could 'Increase shareholder value' then you should quit in an instant, if you have an oppertunity to increase your own value.
If they aer a small company, you might want to give them a bit longer. Would the director take a pay cut in a hard month to make sure you get paid? If so, you don't want to jump ship to another company that might go down just as quickly.
If, as you say, the current difficulties are due to "near-incompetent management decisions", I would guess it as something like a big purchace without consulting you tech people? If so, they don't trust you to make the right decisions; why should you trust them to not fold?
If you don't want to offend your co-workers, you could say you are re-locating to a different area to be with your significant other. Or something.
Michael
...another comment from Michael Tandy.
"Goodness me, how unlike the FBI to abuse the trust of the American public." -- The Onion
Clearly comments from someone who either doesn't work in the industry, or does, and isn't very good at it. The fact is, if you're good at what you do, and your work is even remotely public knowledge (ie, work through IETF, put out papers, you're in a high-profile position, etc, etc), it's quite possible you could get offers without ever going to an interview. This has happened to a couple of folks here where I work (I'm an intern, however... this doesn't happen to me ;), and they have absolutely no desire to leave, nor made any attempts to. It's just the nature of the business... it's called head hunting. It happens.
I really didn't think there was such a thing as loyalty anymore. Don't try to save your friends' careers at the expense of your own (not only would that be lame, but just wrong!). The PHBs at the top most likely care less what you do, take care of your own interests first. If you have good co-workers, definitely take some of them with you...it will pay off later. If the rest suck, leave them...this will also pay off later.
I'm for the bailing. Instead of asking
Are you so self centered, that you are willing to cash out on them?
I think the question is
Are you so self centered that you are sure your friends will lose their jobs if you leave?
I have had friends who were in this position and thought that if they left the company would go under. On the contrary, most didn't.
A philosophy professor stood before his class and had some items in front of him. When class began, wordlessly he picked up a large empty mayonnaise jar and proceeded to fill it with rocks - rocks about 2" in diameter. He then asked the students if the jar was full. They agreed that it was. So the professor then picked up a box of pebbles and poured them into the jar. He shook the jar lightly. The pebbles, of course, rolled into the open areas between the rocks. He then asked the students again if the jar was full. They agreed it was. The students laughed. The professor picked up a box of sand and poured it into the jar. Of course, the sand filled up everything else. "Now," said the professor, "I want you to recognize that this is your life. The rocks are the important things - your family, your partner, your health, and your children - anything that is so important to you that if it were lost, you would be devastated. The pebbles are the other things that matter like your job, your house, and your car. The sand is everything else. The small stuff." "If you put the sand into the jar first, there is no room for the pebbles or the rocks. The same goes for your life. If you spend all your energy and your time on the small stuff, you will never have room for the things that are important to you. Pay attention to the things that are critical to your happiness. Play with your children. Take time to get medical checkups. TAKE YOUR PARTNER OUT DANCING. There will always be time to go to work, clean the house, give a dinner party and fix the disposal." "Take care of the rocks first - the things that really matter. Set your priorities. The rest is just sand."
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
A philosophy professor stood before his class and had some items in front of him. When class began, wordlessly he picked up a large empty mayonnaise jar and proceeded to fill it with rocks - rocks about 2" in diameter. He then asked the students if the jar was full. They agreed that it was. So the professor then picked up a box of pebbles and poured them into the jar. He shook the jar lightly. The pebbles, of course, rolled into the open areas between the rocks. He then asked the students again if the jar was full. They agreed it was. The students laughed. The professor picked up a box of sand and poured it into the jar. Of course, the sand filled up everything else. "Now," said the professor, "I want you to recognize that this is your life. The rocks are the important things - your family, your partner, your health, and your children - anything that is so important to you that if it were lost, you would be devastated. The pebbles are the other things that matter like your job, your house, and your car. The sand is everything else. The small stuff." "If you put the sand into the jar first, there is no room for the pebbles or the rocks. The same goes for your life. If you spend all your energy and your time on the small stuff, you will never have room for the things that are important to you. Pay attention to the things that are critical to your happiness. Play with your children. Take time to get medical checkups. TAKE YOUR PARTNER OUT DANCING. There will always be time to go to work, clean the house, give a dinner party and fix the disposal." "Take care of the rocks first - the things that really matter. Set your priorities. The rest is just sand."
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
When you switch companies, see if you can refer your friends also. They'll like you very much!
My karma's bigger than yours!
SIG: HUP
Listen, look out for yourself. Everyone has a price, right? If one of those coworkers got a job offer that was double, or triple what they are making, but they had to leave today, you better believe they would be shaking hands and having teary heartfelt goodbyes, right now.
If they are true friends, they will be happy that you found something better. If they are truly talented, then they will find jobs, too.
The only thing you can do is give them plenty of warning. If you can trust them not to say anything, tell them, and let them make decisions about when to leave, and where to go.
Do NOT give yourself the added burden of trying to place one of your friends in a job, and sure as fsck don't tell them you will. What you say is, "I'm going to take one of these jobs, once I get in, I'll give you a strong recommendation, provided the company needs your skill set, of course".
There's nothing worse than recommending someone, just to have them come in and be a bad match. Don't guarantee anything, just 'advise' your new employer, and your friend.
If I were one of those guys, I'd want nothing from you but a warning. I wouldn't put pressure on you to find a job for me, I wouldn't blame you for being a successful person in a bad situation, and I would NOT burden you with helping me out.
I don't know, I just don't think friends do that.
TK
Go ahead and leave, but make sure you tell them explicitly WHY you're leaving. At least then, you're STILL being loyal, and maybe they'll be able to make some changes. I doubt it, but then you're still being loyal without sacrificing yourself to a dead company.
--
jX [ Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler. - Einstein ]
If the company is worth anything at all, they can bring in talent to get the next generation out the door, or they can cut right back on existing staff and stay in maintenance mode until the get bought up.
If the company truly is headed in the wrong direction and you haven't been given the power to steer it elsewhere, then it's going over the cliff.
My former employer has gone from an R&D staff of more than 50 to less than 10 in the past year. They were radically re-architecting the "next generation" of the product line, and wanted to be up to over 75 developers by this time.
Instead, after losing a number of KEY people, they have cut back on the next generation functionality, cut back on staffing in other parts of the company, dropped a bunch of dead-weight products. They'll keep surviving until the bucks run out. It doesn't matter who leaves.
Get out if that is what is best for YOU.
Sounds like your company is poorly managed.
Nevertheless, are you happy working there? If so, stay there, if not, go elsewhere. I don't want to sound selfish, but your in it by yourself, and if your departure hurts the company, so be it. Sometimes what you need is just plain old change.
What you need to do is give a respectable notice when you leave, which is the right thing to do if they've been treating you fairly...
--- Worst tagline ever.
The easy answer is that your #1 priority should be yourself. Of course that doesn't always mean running to the first position with the highest paycheque (indeed many of the people who ran to dot coms are realizing that first hand), but you do need to put yourself first and foremost.
Having said that I would like to take issue with a lot of other messages basically saying screw da man! While loyalty is a word that means very little to most people, often it is earned. There are companies out there that go the extra mile to make their employees happy. There are companies that put their employees first and in periods of downturn they eat losses to avoid sending people out packing. There are companies where the owners are working by far the longest hours and making by far the least. To read the hilariously ironic comments of want-to-be socialists (which Slashdot is unfortunately packed full of) portraying all employers as evil borg entities is frightening. Companies are nothing more than collections of people acting as a unit. Sure sure the world is going to hell in a handbasket and all those evil corporations are out to steal your lunch... Grrrr.
There are far too many idiots on the planet.
You have no loyalty to management because loyalty is not something MBA types are taught or understand. If fact, most MBA types would see loyalty as a sign of weakness.
Try to get upper management to get off their ass' and change the direction of the company such that in the short term your company is at least meeting its cash needs. But do not let on that you are thinking of jumping ship. Most managers will see that as a sign to attack you. Its amazing how lacking in leadership skills most MBA/manager types are. Anyway, if they refuse, seem less than motivated, or you don't think they are up to it then you should tell those programmers you feel loyal to and you trust what your plans are and give them a timeline. That's all you need to do. Then its up to them to either take the risk of staying or planning a timely retreat.
I would hope your management gets off their duffs but I wouldn't hold my breath. Most managers were party types in school who don't like to work hard. They would rather use politics and games to get ahead than real work. Keep that in mind.
Lastly when you do leave only tell management that you are leaving because you were offered more money. That's the only reason they will understand. Any other reason and you can expect a Homer Simpson level knee-jerk response. Basically managers never think its their fault that things suck.
I thought about it for a long time, and then I decided to quit. Why? I didn't feel that this company deserved any more loyalty from me. I had worked my ass off for these morons, working long hours, working weekends, and for what? Rumours were constantly circulating that R&D was up on the chopping block because the company was looking to save money. I have no illusions that they wouldn't think twice about firing me if they thought it would improve their bottom line, so where's the loyalty?
My advice, cold as it may sound, is this: screw 'em. If you aren't happy, and if it seems that the company's future is dim, then bail out. No one is looking out for your best interests except you.
Of course, there will be many in this discussion who hold the romantic notion that it's better to stay and fight, even if it means going down with the ship. I say, screw that. Work is about more than just taking home a pay cheque every two weeks, it should be something that you enjoy doing, and to me it sounds like you aren't happy where you are. Be thankful that we work in an industry where the demand for skilled workers exceeds the supply (at least, for now).
--
www.scorbett.ca
The old saying rings true in this case. Don't hold onto a job you know will kill you because of friends at the company. You'll blame them when the going gets tough. If they are good at their jobs they will be okay, and if they are your friends then they'll be okay with you leaving.
My only question is how can this problem be fixed?
When the shit hits the fan, if problems were traced back to broken promises and lack of communication, it probably would be.
But that would require management to take responsibility for mistakes, something few companies seem interested in doing.
If you think about it, an employee who *knows* they will not be held responsible for mistakes is hardly going to be making an effort to avoid them.
5PM or your conscience, whichever intervenes first.
Bryguy
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
It's funny that you should point that out about HR, that they don't want to hire you unless you're already working--I've noticed that too. But at the same time, their next question after "Where do you work now?" is "When can you start?" When I'm un-employed and searching, I get knocked because I'm not working currently--when I'm employed and searching, I get knocked for not being able to start immediately.
As an aside, I personally feel that if you work yourself into a position where you are not easily replaced, then you were doing a lousy job. I always consider the first and most important part of my job to be documenting the position to such extent that any reasonably knowledgeable replacement can step right in and have a good handle on it within a week or two. If the original poster is really so vital to his current company and cares so much about what happens to his co-workers, he should have taken steps long ago to ensure that his absence--accidental or intentional--wouldn't sink the place. I don't think this is necessarily a mark of loyalty, but rather simple professionalism. When I'm interviewing someone, the last thing I want to hear from them is "Yeah, I left my last job and the place fell apart without me. No one even knew where to start." I want someone whose replacement was able to pick it up without missing a beat. It may be an ego boost to feel like the linch-pin, but it's not a sign of a true IT professional, IMHO.
No relation to Happy Monkey
I disagree. You certainly can't document leadership skills or your own unique problem-solving style, but in my experience, no one is irreplaceable. You can always find another person that can do the job as long as they're given the tools. They might not do it the same way, it might turn out a little worse or a little better, but no reasonable company will go out of business just because one person leaves. I've heard that line any number of times when key people have left various organizations, and I have yet to see any of them fail because of it. It's just a natural "the sky is falling, the sky is falling!" reaction.
Gotta go with you on taking people along with you if you do ditch, though. It works both ways--they get a leg up, and you get staff you can trust and rely on to get the job done.
No relation to Happy Monkey
You can replace "An Anonymous CTO" with "CmdrTaco" and the article still makes sense. Try it yourself!
-atrowe: Card-carrying Mensa member. I have no toleranse for stupidity.
It's only a matter of time. That's right. You are on a sinking ship trying to pour excess water out with a bucket. The ship will still sink and you'll lose your lifeboat to others if you wait. I have been in this situation before and I can tell you the best thing to do is JUMP SHIP NOW!!!! If this business is getting worse, it's only a matter of time. Get out, get out, get out while you still have those offers. In today's economy, company loyality will hurt you.
I don't think that you can simultaneously claim that (1) none of the problems at the company are your fault, and (2) you are so critical to the operation that nothing can go on without you. Maybe you're not getting enough funding, or the sales staff is overselling your services. Sure, you're not making it happen, but if you let it happen, you're not doing your job.
A CTO isn't (or shouldn't be) the writer or the tersest code, or the person who installed Linux first, or the winner of whatever techo-pissing contest you care to name. The CTO coordinates with the other departments. You manage resources, help your people to be productive, and you you protect them. If that's not the job you want, you should do yourself, your employer, and your future employer(s), and your reports a favor, and get a job where your door doesn't say manager or chief. Your "friends" won't miss you.
then you probably have your answer. Once you start wondering, if you don't decide to move on how much time will you spend thinking about what you might have been doing if you had left this job. Your friends will understand, they're probably thinking the same things, even if they won't say so.
My last company sucked, but the guys I worked with were cool. The management wanted loyalty but didn't do anything to earn it. After I couldn't take it anymore and decided to leave, I offered to stay for 30 days in order to help wrap up the current projects. I was hoping that this would make the process easier on the guys that I worked with. When I told my boss, he said that I had to leave that day! So the team ended up doubly f@#*ed because I wasn't even able to transfer any knowledge to them. Man. Loyalty sucks, I say split and try to help your friends from your new job. -Rev.
Which decision would you regret more?
you should try discussing the subject with a member of the management, but try to keep it between the two of you. They will be able to give you a better idea of what to do.
How Jaded Are You?
How can any of us be loyal to a corporate entity? After all, I can't think of any corporation that views me as anything more than a necessary expense... as long as I generate income for the company, everyone is happy. The moment I don't, I become a cost to be cut. Seems like having loyalty to something like that is akin to worshiping Cthulhu.
Your relationship with your employers (and anyone you don't have a personal connection to, for that matter) is as follows: "Fuck everybody who is not me!"
In general, modern problems have medieval solutions...
You are wrong - we don't think that management is a bunch of 'super-people' - we know for a fact that the large majority of them are morons for any of the following (or other) reasons:
1. Goes against good advice from employees (i.e. doesn't know correct answer when told)
2. Is a non-technical person in charge of a technological department or vice versa (e.g. - a history major managing engineers).
3. Managers beget managers - instead of taking an objective look at how you they doing their jobs, managers will kiss each others' asses.
Bottom line - a manager should manage instead of do. Additionally - instead of worrying about your career, worry about your employees. If you have happy employees, their efforts will further your career.
In general, modern problems have medieval solutions...
Then go to your employers and tell them why you want to leave. If they try to intimidate you, leave. If they try to cream you, leave. You have given them the chance to play fair, and by explaining why you leave, and playing it hard, you will make life better for your colleagues too.
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
Your description is of a company that is already dead but hasn't had the decency to lie down.
The only thing hanging around does is mean that when the full fall comes, you will be there with the rest of them, all your handwringing changing nothing.
You also indicate that your co-workers are quite talented too. Well, again, quit. They are talented and will also find new, good jobs.
You are flogging yourself over a non-issue. Quit, take one of the job offers, the rest, in ones and groups will quit over a short time and find new jobs that will likely be better overall (given your description).
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
I would be careful to distinguish between company loyalty and loyalty to your friends and coworkers. I think it is silly to "go down with the ship" for the company's sake. Friends are a different matter. Have you discussed the future with them? Perhaps they too see the writing on the wall? Would you be in a position to help them get jobs afterwards? Most importantly, are you really doing them any favors by prolonging their stay at an apparently doomed company? If they end up unemployed in the middle of a recession in 10 months (I don't really expect it, but hypothetically), I expect that it wouldn't have done them any good that you stuck with a failing effort when you could have pulled the plug. And you would be in the same boat.
I would sit down quietly with my coworkers and friends and gauge their assessment of the future, albeit without tipping my hand. I might even subtly point them in what I thought was the most beneficial direction. But I would not sacrifice myself for the dubious benefit of my friends; it would be better for to help them and help yourself than to valiantly help nobody at all.
I don't necessarily agree. My partner and I have been working to open and then running a company since July. In that time, we each have had at least two job offers that I would consider genuine (and other pie-in-the-sky type flights of fancy). Many techies I know routinely get offers from people with whom they interact outside the company; suppliers, contractors, etc. who try to steal them away from their present job. If this particular CTO has been doing his job well and has done the requisite networking for his company, then I'm mildly surprised that he's only gotten two offers.
But now you're worried about your conscience. After all, you've gotten a couple of offers, so you've probably gone looking for a new job, and now at the moment when you're ready to leave you're second guessing yourself.
I've dealt with HR, mostly on the basis of interviewing potentials, and one fairly important point revolves around "Where do you work now?"" and, to a lesser extent, "Why do you want to switch jobs."
I've had the unfortunate experience of being 'downsized', and the even more ridiculous experience of being on the losing side of an internal political war (of which I had no part, and joined 1/2 way through). In the first case, I was surprised, and had a heck of a time getting a new job - the HR belief is that if you were laid off, _obviously_ you weren't good. There is some recognition that this isn't always the case, but most HR types aren't the brightest candles in the marquee. The second time, I already had a job lined up, left on a Friday, started up elsewhere on the Monday. The new job was not necessarily ideal, but it seriously helped with both the cash flow, and with getting the next job ("I currently work at xxx." and "I'm looking for something more challenging than web design.").
No trite answer will help you resolve your problem, but company loyalty is a rather mythical item in this day and age. Your primary responsibility is to yourself (and any family). Loyalty is a desirable trait, but blind loyalty can get you into trouble.
I left one company for a bunch of reasons - one of which was I picked up more and more responsibilities, ended up the sole person capable of supporting several systems, and still being treated as dirt. Yes, they were royally screwed by my leaving, despite my best efforts at a painless transition. Part of the 'loyalty' thing is that it works two ways. If they show zero reason for you to be loyal, then don't. It's that simple. Incompetent management is one of the best indicators that they're not worth your time.
I ran into that very same problem last year.
I was working for a small web design and hosting shop in Milwaukee.
The owner didn't trust any of the employees, read our e-mail, and snooped all web activity. It only caused moral to fall through the floor and everyone to think about jumping ship.
All I can say is to look out for your own butt.
My old company is still in business, despite that most of it's employees have only been there less than a year. In fact for a company of about 40, they had 29 leave last year.
I figure that if they can stay in business, so can your place.
Get out now. Then see if you can help your friends to get on at the new place if you want.
I wish you luck.
-Goran
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.
>The economy isn't designed entity, it just is.'
This is equally a non-sequiteur of the highest order becuase it assumes that people, you and me just are - meaning we have no choice in the matter. That is the problem ultimately with anarcho-capitalism, it emphasizes individualism without consequence. I'm an anarchist too, and I even like free markets, but I'm willing to get past the Randian selfishness and help out my fellow human beings.
Since we all have a choice, and that is exactly what this original post was all about, I was advocating that choosing to be loyal to a company is stupid, because by goddess the damn company is rarely loyal to its employees (volunteer slaves).
www.enthea.org
Thanks for the compliments. I agree with you that the economy is an emergent property. Unfortuantely the entierity of these issue is frought with paradox. On the one hand you have the idealistic free-market of anarho-capitalism, which on the surface sounds great. The idea that everyone and anyone can pursue their goals without impeditiment is an admirable one. On the other extreme you have the idealistic utopia of communism (Soviet Russia was not truly communist). The problem with each of these extremes is that it relies on the false notion that people can be ethically pure to the highest degree.
I've been left with the conclusion that as long as we as a species remain on a one planet and without an increase in the overall maturity and intelligence of humanity, the trend will be towards some kind of totaltarianism. If it's not socialist totaltariansim, it going to be corporate totaltariansim. And so what irks me is that the capitalist idealogues, who so blindly react react against socialist control are ironically advoacting corporate totalarianism. True communism, and true free-markets can not exist with the current maturity of the human species.
Long term solution? We have to migrate to space. ;-)
www.enthea.org
The economy has never been about companies - its about people . A companies sole reason for exisiting is to act as an adhoc convenience for people to act in concert to produce products and services for other people. The sad part is, the incompetent people at the top have lied to us over the years by promoting the good of the company over that of the people employed by it. Not because they have any company loyalty themselves (thats why CEO's are always bailing), but because keeping the company afloat keeps them employed long enough to gather millions in salaries and stock options. Once they are vested, they bail too.
Which brings me to why I think the current trend in capitalism towards the survival of the corporarations over all other goals is a very bad trend for everyone. The economy exists to bring the state of humanity to higher and higher degrees of prosperity and wealth for everyone. Or at least that should be its goal. Instead, what you have happeing, are larger and larger merged corporations becomeing wealthier and more prosperous, further dividing the haves from the have nots.
www.enthea.org
No management (unless thier heads are where the sun don't shine) would allow this, purely from the point of treating that one critical employee as a person, much less from the reliability angle.
Bite the bullet and get it over with quickly. Your coworkers will thank you later. Life goes on. Even the darkest day finally ends.
Also, be creative. Plan. Take their curricula vitae with you. Keep the cream, and spread the rest around. Your new employers may thank you, and so might your employee friends.
*whup* "Get along, little electrons. Heeyah!"
I have not read all of the above postings, but most of the ones I did read have missed the point entirely:
If the company is dissolving/dying/exploding, because of clueless management,then it has no right to continue its existance. You ask whether or not you should jump. Of course you should. But not for the kind of reasons you think.
If we can accept your statement that your position and skills really are pivotal in keeping the company alive so far, then all you are doing is delaying your friends' chances of getting a job in a successful company.
Plus, for all you know, many of your friends are sticking around out of a sense of loyalty to you!
You are not being selfish by sticking around, you are being cowardly. Stop being afraid of going to a new (successful?) company where you will no longer be the only potential saviour, and you have to compete with and cooperate with equally skilled and perhaps better skilled co-workers.
Be more, not less.
Bail now and tell your colleagues to do likewise. You're company is obviously going downhill. Your friends losing their jobs there is an eventuality.
"Only Real Men Have FABs." -W. J. Sanders III
If you go, and if once you are comfortable, take some with you! Where I work at, four or five people (at one time even more) had all come from one other company. They were good at working together, now the only thing holding them all back is the management *grin*. It can work, and if the current place is dying, and if you like the coworkers, do what is best all around, save your neck, then try to save theirs.
"Titanic was 3hr and 17min long. They could have lost 3hr and 17min from that."
IBM had PL/1, with syntax worse than JOSS,
And everywhere the language went, it was a total loss...
they aren't irreplaceable. The company will get along without you and/or the other employees will find other jobs. They will not wallow in their own self pitty because you've left, sorry. If the company does fold because of one person, they weren't going to make it anyway.
I love the smell of Karma in the morning
Both my husband and I have lived in high-tech east coast big cities. Neither of us wants to move back to them. These are the sorts of decisions that make family important. We have to decide who follows whose job, this time. That's also important.
They held a strategy session that afternoon. Some of the spouses/siggy o's had great ideas on the search, so everybody took time to watch the kids, and circulate around. Six hours later, everybody had a great resume, a plan for their own personal dream job, and better friendships.
They also each had five copies of everybody's resumes, including family resumes. This search was decided on as a community venture. At the end of the interview, if the interviewer asked if they knew of anybody with x skill, they pulled out a buddy resume from their portfolio.
Some people left right away, while others still worked. Within three weeks everybody was at a better job. (This was in much tougher times than these.) Some people had found jobs with other people.
This has since been done with another friend who rented the back two rooms of a restaurant. They all had better jobs within three weeks, again. Don't do this with people you don't trust. Do make sure you involve the families. Do have fun.
That's right - assist in hiring your replacement then get out of there. It is not your problem or your responsibility if somebody under you just got a new house or a new car. You said that everyone in the company pretty much knows what is going on anyway. There is no harm in trying to better yourself.
...All I can say is that my life is pretty strange...
The company that I currently work for is in the EXACT same situation that you're company is in. In fact, the developers working next to me are taking bets as to whether or not you are the CTO of our company (who is out of the office today).
I know what it's like when morale is bad, and it's very easy to get excited about working for a new company. If you really play as pivotal a role as you say you do, then this is not a decision that anyone will be able to answer execept for you. In fact, I would go so far as to say that there really is no correct decision that can be made, because there is a downside to either one. On the other hand, there is no wrong answer because of the obvious advantages to either solution.
The tech market isn't doing so good right now and a lot of companies are finding it difficult to stay afloat, especially startup companies. The situation that I am in is that we have funding to stay alive for a few more months, by which time our product will be out. I really believe that the product fills a niche, so I'm going to stick with it solely based on my belief in what I'm doing. As CTO of a consulting firm, you might not have the advantage of believing in a single product like I do.
Some people say that it really depends on how loyal the company is to you. I disagree with this, because unless someone has worked for a company that is going under, they don't realize how unimportant loyalty can be. Just the fact that they are going out of business feels like a slap in your face. It's not an easy decision to make, but if you feel this guilty about leaving, then you have a tough road ahead if you do actually decide to bail. I would stay with them for as long as possible until every last smidgen of hope was gone. The tech market might not be doing to wel,l but there are plenty of jobs out there. "Job offers don't last forever", but other jobs do exist.
The advantage of working for a startup company is usually the laid back atmosphere, and the ability to make a huge difference as an individual. The disadvantages are a lack of money, and a lack of stability. You probably knew this when you accepted the position as CTO. Just because the going got tough, doesn't mean that you have to get going. Stick it out as long as you can. The longer you stay, the more information you will have, and the better the decision you will be able to make.
"Vote for Matt Diez"
When it comes to employment, there are no wrong decisions, because you can never know for sure what might happen. It's not worth kicking yourself over if you turn out to be wrong.
That said, BAIL OUT NOW! I was in the same type of position a while ago, and I stayed around because of the people I worked with (not for). When the company finally did go under, I was out of work for a month. If the company morale is low, it will fail. Morale is the single most important thing in keeping a company afloat. And low morale means everyone knows the inevitable is coming.
"My job is being right when other people are wrong." -- George Bernard Shaw
The short answer is: "Bail NOW".
A little longer answer: You claim moral is low, and indicate no confidence in management, nor is there an indication of contractual impediments or any other claims the company may hold. The only thing which appears to hold you back is concern for coworkers of competence/friendship/something. Hence, the loyalty question is more concerned with those individuals and not the company as such.
Assuming the above summary is correct, give your people first notice of your departure, give them the positive incentives you are in line for (more money, more interesting project, or something), while neither saying nor implying anything negative about the position you are leaving. Keep in touch with your now former colleagues regularly after working hours, to be able to offer a hand with resume, letter of recommendation, leads as needed.
What will you remember 20 years from now?
What do you remember from 20 years past?
Chances are, that what you focus immensely on at the current point in time will seem ridiculously irrelevant later on. Conversely, what seems like just a fun sideshow at the time is what you will really rememeber 20 years from now.
People remember people. Not projects, jobs, papers, objectives, budgets, deadlines, or whatever artificial goal has been set up this week. If you take this to heart, you will also know what it takes to motivate people long term, which is extremely hard in a typical corporate environment.
If I were you, I'd probably talk to those offers to talk to my friends too, then take my friends out for a thorough night out with lots of malt, hops and barley, and then move to new challenges and try to take them along. You know in your heart when you need to move on, and it sounds to me like your heart is saying move but your brain is not comfortable with that.
What will you remember 20 years from now? That things sucked, that you had a fun night out, and that you all jumped ship to something better, and probably that you bonded better with your friends as a result.
/ Dick (project lead at MS)
No one can fault you for considering an "opportunity". However, remember to do your own due diligence when leaving to ensure that the grass you are landing on is definitly greener than the grass you're standing on.
-------
-------
--Hit it where they aint.
The Company sent me on a business trip, but I couldn't see the point of it. My instructions were to have a picnic, then go to the theater. The picnic was on this grassy knoll and I found a rifle in the picnic basket! Later, in the theater there was a bunch of ruckus in the basement and I saw some of my coworkers--they didn't say "hi" though. Nowadays, especially in the commie areas of the country, people will tell you to just "jump ship". But this was Texas in 1963--I stayed loyal to The Company. You should, too.
--
MailOne
Non-meta-modded "Overrated" mods are killing Slashdot
(Hey Ryan! Here's your proof!)
"And yet, I have two upcoming job offers that are both well paying and good career moves, and offers don't last forever."
Why do you have offers coming in? Did you put your resume out? Surely you must have at least interviewed with them.
I suspect you've already made the decision to leave and want us to provide some conscience-salving justifications for it.
--
MailOne
Non-meta-modded "Overrated" mods are killing Slashdot
(Hey Ryan! Here's your proof!)
I have been on both sides of this equation. Some years ago I was a junior level programmer at a small failing startup. We had one experienced and talented programmer who made all architectural decisions, and 3 (including myself) engineers who were talented but exceedingly lacking in experience. When the company started to fail, the eperienced engineer started fielding job offers from a variety of companies, and he ALWAYS proposed to prospective employers that they take the entire engineering team. It is unclear how forceful his proposals were, but it might well have been a condition of his acceptance (thank you, James!). And that is the story of how I came to be an engineer at Cisco with no degree and almost no experience.
Years later, I was in the same position, although I wasn't interested in preserving an entire team. There were members of the team I wanted to keep together, and made sure that everone important received job offers appropriate to their skills and needs.
Don't forget that a really good team is worth far more than the sum of its members. It can take a long time to build a really good rapport between team members, if it happens at all, and it isn't something that any prospective employer should throw away lightly. That is a pretty compelling argument.
--sam
Loyalty and responsibility between an employer ( and management) and the employee is a two-way relationship. Not only does the employee have to be responsible and loyal to his employer, but the employer and management must also be loyal and responsible to their employees. That includes providing stable and dependable employment, plus all the tangible and intangible attributes of a productive and goodwill-fostering workplace.
From your description of your scenario, I'd have to agree that your employer and its incompetant management has fallen short of their responsibilities to you and your fellow employees and it is definitely time to bail out, and keep *your* best interests in mind. If you stay, then philosophically you're the same thing as a battered spouse who keeps clinging to the one who beats you up.
except that my company is not about to die, but say that it was about to, I would jump ship and either invite the other guys aboard or offer a good reference letter. No reason to stick with a company that's being run by incompetent fools.
You should be as loyal to the company as they are to you. I've worked for companies that treat employees like crap, and I've had zero loyalty to them (and got out quick, too). I've worked for companies that treated employees really well, and I've stayed with them through rough times.
this is getting old and so are you
blog
I worked for a medium sized ISP doing for-peantus web design. Said ISP was getting too big for its britches. At the time, there were a number of management SNAFU's that crippled the company, yet it continued to sail ahead at full speed while completely ignoring polite suggestions, complaints, and outright cries for help.
The big shafting came when the know-nothing fiancial VP made several decisions that made it impossible for my company to do an IPO. The president and founder hired a bean-counter/head count slasher who dealt with the situation by immediately halting the company's expenditure growth to get the ducks all in a row. Over the next few months, this resulted in needless layoffs and spite firings throughout the company. Not a pretty scene.
Now, the critical point of this entire mess was when the hidden paycuts started coming. The first of these was the sudden worthlessness of all our stock options due to the failed IPO. Many of us were depending on this money for college, house down payments, etc. It was a kick in the balls to lose. The second came when the new bean-counter decided to forego the usual Christmas Bonus.
Now, usually when a company says 'No Christmas Bonus', you look to your other raises and the growth of the company and see that you have still profited. Unfortuneately, this company's Christmas bonus was a significant portion of all our yearly salaries and part of the reason most of us agreed to work for the relatively low pay.
Raises stopped, even though the company wasn't really in any financial straits. Hires stopped. New hardware and software purchases stopped. Training was nonexistant.
At the time, our development staff consisted of eight people: Four coders, two artists and two web developers. None of the coders were competent to design customer sites and neither of the artists were competent to write HTML, let alone script SQL driven sites or customize DB2 code for the ecommerce sites we were doing.
One morning, I walked into the office and told my close friend, the other designer, that I had jumped ship. I hired on as a company webmaster for a financial institution at over twice the pay and was about to turn in my resignation. Somewhat surprised, he told me that he was also drafting a resignation because he had just been hired as a network administrator in CA.
We quit the same morning. It destroyed the company's web design business and one of the coders (our close friend) was fired for undisclosed reasons.
Now, I work with no fewer than five of the people I worked with at the old company. As the old company struggles to rebuild their web design department, we see more and more of their gifted employees interview at the new company.
The moral of this story: If you're hurting, you can bet your buddies are too. Do your best to find them jobs when you jump ship, and they might actually *stay* your buddies.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
Others have already suggested helping your friends find jobs at the new place.. Here's one way you can be "fair" to your current company without shafting yourself:
Take the facts you have stated:
1) "My position is pivotal... if I bail ship, the company will likely either fold or have to transform itself immensely"
2) "I have two upcoming job offers that are both well paying and good career moves"
...take these facts to your boss and give them the chance to make a counteroffer to keep you. If they don't, oh well, you gave them a chance, go take the new job, and if they do, hey, you get a raise or whatever. Either way, you win!
BTW, this is a very common practice outside of IT professionals (bargaining), but for some reason a lot of programmers don't seem to know what they are worth and are not willing to push their employer to treat them as if they are valuable. Remember, management will try to get as much work out of you for as little money as they can get away with; they are quite happy to let you remain ignorant that you can haggle a higher salary or better working conditions out of them. You have to show them that they will lose YOUR valuable skills to a competitor if they don't value you at your true worth--and MEAN it.
---dragoness
Also, nobody is indispensable. To think that is extremely arrogant. The world won't end if you quit, no matter how important you think you are. Better turn the ego down a couple notches.
Your company loyalty is commendable, and not too many people in your position would be that way. I was in a similar situation with a company I worked at, and I had similar loyalties. However ... you should take one of the new jobs and don't look back. You have to look out for yourself. I understand your problem with stranding your fiends, but you'll be doing them a favor. If they have talent they'll find a job, maybe even in the new company you work for. (An interesting thread yesterday pointed out non-competition agreements and their flawed nature so don't feel like you couldn't take a few survivors from the sinking ship!)
Also, don't feel bad about leaving. If the upper management is as incompetant as it sounds like they are, then it's their fault and not yours. Honestly, how much can the star player do without a supporting staff? You're better off putting yourself into a company with good potential and solid management. Your life will have less stress and your friends will understand, and find a new job.
"Politicians find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the people."
IMHO... You should stay. It is very important that you look out for your coworkers. I feel that it is important for you to stay so that they can continue thier carriers. Let them find a great job, THEN go and find the job of a life time.
****BUT!!!!, in the meantime please send me more information about those other jobs that you were looking at. ******
Your loyalties should be to yourself first. To your coworkers second. To the company third. This may seem backwards from what many people say, but if you put the company above all else, you end up being not a very nice person. If you put yourself first, then you are watching out for the most important person in your life, and then you are loyal to your coworkers, and they will most likely follow suit towards you. By putting the company third, you don't alienate it, nor jeopardize your job, you just realize that there are other jobs, but you will be able to maintain the connections you made while there.
:)
A very idealistic POV, I know, but it works
a family member of mine recently got canned along with 1000 others from marchFirst (whose stock comes in dead last) recently. one of his competent coworkers went out formed his own new company doing the same buisness and hired all the good former employees from march first. i imagine this would wrok for you
Understand that the second there's a better business case from the company's perspective with you gone than with you there, you'll be gone. So do you own analysis based on a business case from your perspective.
I went down that road. If the prospect are dim you need to look out for yourself first. Don't just disappear one day, give them notice. I tried to do the loyal thing at a company and ended up with no paycheck for 3 months when the boss walked in one day and said that they had gone under. Good luck
:D j/k
Ever heard of the cliché, "Like a rat off a sinking ship?" Get outta there!
Question everything
In my experience a role like CTO in a small company is one of the top 5 or 6 people in that organization. In such a rarified atmosphere the CTO has a lot of pull. The success of the company is based partly on your ability to do your job. If you are leaving this job because others at your level have out manoeuvered you politically, you probably have to think long and hard about the implication for what comes next.
I think that in any normal role you can quickly say that the circumstances left you no options: Quit. It's no skin off your nose if they go down.
However, in your position as a member of the executive, if that really is your role, then you have to ask yourself the really hoary question: Am I man enough to make a business successful, or am I just another worker ant that wants to be paid well and leave at 5pm?
You have given use a question, but I don't think you have stated all the facts in a manner that allows anyone to give a responsible answer - Maybe you are an executive!
Even if your coworkers are your friends, they should understand that it's your choice to leave or not. You are an Employee. That means that if the company sinks or swim it will not your affect your paycheck (ok, if the company swim you might get a bigger paycheck or if it sinks u will get fired or something like that). The point is, if your company relies so much on you and the company doesnt have a future, neither do you. You should leave and take as much friends and coworkers as you can.
Everybody has a purpose in life, maybe mine is to lurk in slashdot.
it's their problem.. nuff said
I have a cool sig too.
it's their problem.. nuff said..
I have a cool sig too.
Well is it?
-'If at first you don't succeed, redefine success'
In this day of non-loyalty within companies, do you even need to ask this question?
Not to be rude, but your management (by your own admission completely incompetent) would not hesitate to let you go, no matter how hard working, loyal, or helpful you had been, if they thought cutting you would save a buck. That's corporate America for you, and that's the way it is everywhere now.
So, bail. If you have better offers on the table, run, run fast, just get the hell out of there.
It sounds like your current company is going to fold at some point anyway, and if you don't get out now you are going to go down with the ship. Then where will you be? You will be able to put on your resume "closed down company X" and that's about it. Plus you may not have offers at that time. So get out while you can. The job market is all about timing. Good or bad, take your best chance.
And if you are worried about pissing off your co-workers, if they are your friends they will understand. If they are not your friends, then don't worry about them. They can take care of themselves, and if something bad happens to them, it isn't your responsibility. I know that sounds harsh, but I stayed in other jobs way longer than I should have because of feelings of "abandoning" my co-workers and pushed myself to the brink of insanity over it. But in the end, when I finally did leave every one of them said, "I don't know how you toughed it out as long as you did." and wished me luck in the future. Even the ones I didn't like!
If you have a bright prospect, jump at it. You won't be sorry. But staying where you are sounds like it would, or at least could, make you very, very sorry in the end.
Good luck to you! And I hope things work out.
------------
Need to broaden the horizon.
it sounds like you are only delaying the innevitable by staying. do you friends the service of forcing them to find better and more stable positions sooner rather than later. it is logical to leave.
"the exact black cat?"
.com company. Just a normal private educational institution. Anyways, their IT dept. is dying due to the fact that upper management doesn't know how to manage.
Oh, anyways, where i used to work is kinda in the same boat. Except they weren't a
Hmmpf, actually they don't know how to treat employees properly. Their clueless and they're all trying to impress the president those folk who know squat on technology.
Needless to say a few thousand students are going to be wondering what happened to their network after a few key employees bail in a few months.
sad ain't it how a great company/place to work can be soured by incompetent managers.
I'd take those offers and go. Don't pass up a great opportunity to help pursue your dreams. And don't forget your friends and co-workers. Treat them well.
It'll pay back.
In this age of "hire at will, fire at will" policies being the norm for employment, noone owes their employer the slightest bit of loyalty. But this poor soul is worried about his/her friends! It's a sign from God to go do your own thing and take them all with you when you go, pally! Screw those other offers and go start a business. But even if you can't read the writing on the wall, look at it this way: You do your friends no favors by encouraging them to hang around in a dead-end job.
It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries
Even though I think the person asking the question should bail because a funding issue just sounds like a sinking ship - I think there is such a thing as company loyality. Maybe you just haven't worked at the right company yet. I've been at mine for a number of years now and have been made one or two offers that would provide me with more money but I've refused them.
They've treated me well since day one: good enviornment, good projects, decent management, etc. etc. If a company treats me with respect, I think they deserve some loyality and respect. If my own well being was being threatened, I may turn tail and run. It is just business and if I can't put food on my table then I'm not sticking around. However, I've seen people hop from job to job for increasing amounts of money and I think that's quite disrespectful to a good company. Leaving a good job for another job just because they'll pay you 5k - 10k more just ain't cool.
In my opinion, it'd be better to bail. First of all, if it's a definite sinking ship then you need to be able to keep a roof over your own head before worrying about others and those offers won't be there forever. Secondly, you may be able to offer more help to your fellow coworkers by establishing a position at another job and arranging interviews for some of them at your new job.
.02.
Just my
Leave. Bail. Launch. Management will drag that ship down even if you stay. Remember, companies hire people to make products, they don't make products to hire people. Eventually this company won't have any products to make, and you won't be needed. Forget the company, but remember your friends.
My first job out of college was programming for a .COM startup. They payed a decent salary, but the best part was the relaxed environment (free soda + nerf guns at work + renovated factory as an office space: LOTS of room) and the company's encouragement for me to learn Perl. Free (reimbursed) Books, and a free Cable Modem connection and computer (eMachines... not a serious Gamez box, but a solid workstation) so I could work from home most of the time.
When the bottom started falling out of the company 4 months after I joined, I stuck with them. I even worked for free for about a month while the senior management tried to get investors. But in the end, the company folded.
I had no problems going down with the ship, because of the experience I gained as a programmer. But I was only a "lowly" programmer, so I didn't have the extra pressure of a management position; worrying about the people working under me; like you do. I also didn't have a family to support at that time, so it was OK to work for free (while looking for a job at the same time).
In my case, it was better that I stayed, because it benefitted my programming skills. but if your job isn't doing anything for you, you should probably move on before you get burned.
Ask yourself "If they made me a part owner/partner of the company, would I stay?" If the answer is no, bail. If the answer is yes, go ask to be made a part owner/partner. If they turn you down, bail. If they say yes, then you have a stake in a company that you want to work for. It's a win/win situation for you either way.
There are 01 kinds of cars in the world. The General Lee, and everything else.
If you ask yourself the question, "Can I make a difference?" and the answer is "No, they're going to collapse eventually," then jump. Tell your friends why and give those you can trust some advance notice. I'll bet most folks can see the writing on the wall, as you have. It's best if you all move on and let management reap what they've sown.
is that the owners DON'T run them.
It seems to me that loyalty has been replaced by contracts. If you didn't sign something that says you wouldn't bail than it's time to go.
My outlook would be this: The company is a sinking ship, and it seems like there are more holes developing everyday. Rather than stay behind and try to use a teaspoon to bail the water out, jump ship and get to dry ground. Perhaps the places you got offers from have room for more... and you could refer your friends there and all would be good.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
The COBOL Warrior
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
The COBOL Warrior
"COBOL's Not dead, it's just underground"
If you currently have two enticing job offers, there is no reason to pass them up. What if all your friends at the company have other job offers already lined up and they have not told you about them. If you continue to stay at your job and reject the job offers, what happens if your friends leave? You are then stuck in a company with no future and you have nowhere to go.
I'd bail and not even look back.
Ahhh, the classic mgmt vs worker dilemma. There's an (infamous) article by Orson Scott Card that sums this up, particularly in the software scene: http://www.apocalypse.org/pub/u/kjc/cool/Card.on.S oftware.html
"I bless every day that I continue to live, for every day is pure profit."
No, everyone thinks that Managers are these 'super-idiots' who can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.
I didn't pay for my operating system either
Managers are closer to the real constraints, but act as if the constraints determine their actions. Managers should be trying to optimize a benefit function within the constraint of cost; instead, they optimize the cost/benefit function with no constraints. It's not just mathematically inaccurate - it doesn't work.
I didn't pay for my operating system either
you not doing your friends any favors by going down with them either...good luck
**From the been there and done that files** Any project plan or business plan that pivots on one person without providing provisions for the possibility of loosing that person is a poor plan and not your fault. Look out for yourself.
a couple of things to think about: 1. you mentioned the executive team is a joke... in most small startups, communications from every employee are critical. Bad decisions should be pointed out immediately. If senior mgmt can't handle the bad news, then you are right to leave but at least tell them what you think is being done wrong. You'll feel better for trying even if you do leave. 2. if you leave, the company will most likely go under... if that's the case, then you are a critical employee and senior mgmt should recognize that. If they don't want to listen to you, then there's a gap between your perceived value and how they are valuing you. Again - go talk to them and see if they listen. 3. there should be no secrets regarding financing of a startup. You have all risked your careers on this venture and everyone should know exactly what's up on the financial scene. You should all know just exactly how much longer the company has if it can't raise any more money. Ask your senior mgmt team to have a frank discussion about the finances with all employees, and when a decision will be made to shut the doors. If they won't tell you, then help them understand how not knowing will secure the company's fate because of the impact it is having on morale and that key employees are dusting off their resumes as you speak. (that should wake them up!) 4. if you feel this way about the future of the company, then senior mgmt must see this too. When times are tough, senior mgmt is looking for the people that will step up to the plate and help solve the problem(s). For those that do, there should be more in it for them. Perhaps this a a chance to take a greater leadership role in your company and a bigger piece of the pie from a salary/ownership perspective. 5. If you're not willing to roll up your sleeves and get active in making the company successful, then it's time to leave and find a company where you are willing.
Well, I too was working last month at a small internet consulting company. I ended up leaving. I wasn't quite as pivotal as you, I guess, but I look at it this way: I'm not a jerk at work, but in the end in business, you have to look after YOURSELF. Therefore, if you've done what you can do to make a company succesful and your best efforts have been hindered by people above you (or below you), and you have a better opportunity, then _take it_. That may be construed as "jumping out" or "bailing ship", but if you've honestly given it your best shot then it's the right decision, and anybody not personally involved or hurt (i.e. future employers) should see it that way. Plus, if your coworkers are any good, they'll get new jobs. You don't owe them your sanity in order that they can keep jobs in a dying company. There you go. I have spoken.
www.clarke.ca
Speaking from experience, get out now. I was in the exact same situation a few weeks ago and was let go because of incompetent management. The upper brass didn't know much of anything about the internet and woudn't listen to the employees. What you may want to consider is to take selected employees with you and start up your own firm. That's what I did and I'm a much happier camper for doing so.l I may not be making the same amount of money as I did before, but it was a fair trade to have less stress and be with a group of people who know what they're doing.
My good sig is in the laundry
As an intregral part of an Internet startup that is in the process of yet another revamped business model, I find myself in the very same situation. With recent staff cuts and an immediate rush for funding I wonder about my future and I also wonder why I am still here. What it comes down to is a fear of change (I think)...The thought of all those endless hours I put in in the past and of all the time and energy I put into this idea and the dream of making it big is dying a slow death. It's hard to let go of something that used to be so important, it's also hard to break away from such a tight knit group of co-workers and it is hard to think of the past 2 years as a waste of time. Chances are (at least in my situation, this is the case) that your friends feel the same uneasiness and have been also considering their options. I would think that if you hold the CTO position and greatly respect your friends and their abilities and you disagree with the direction the management is taking the company...then I think that you and your buddies should make your own model and succeed without all that dead-weight.
Move on. In the long run it will be best for you and your coworkers.
You have to know that the higher ups are just trying to milk as many paychecks out of it as they possibly can before the show is over, and they don't care about you, or your friends working there, except that you are making them money. Jump ship, move on. You will be in a better position and can help yourself and help your friends.
I was also in the same situation a year ago. The company I worked for at the time lost its biggest client, and we all knew we had about another 6 months or so before the company shut down completely. I got an offer and left. Now I am so glad I did - it wasn't everything I was looking for, but my new company was many times more stable. My advice is get out before it is too late!
Well Cliff, been there, seen that, got the t-shirt. I bailed. 8 months later, my friends were looking for new jobs. They still call me when they need something and I love my new job. I wonder about the security from time to time since going from such a demanding position to the new kid on the block, but stress is down, I am much happier... I say its time to be true to you!
CTO? As an executive, you must have had hand in watching the train wreck unfold, maybe even partly to blame. The downturn in the economy doesn't mean every company is doomed, just the ones that were lame to begin with. Contain the spill. Ask yourself, could this have been prevented? And if so, what can you do as CTO to facilitate change? If the answer is nothing, or scant then you've already answered your own larger question -- you had no real mantle of authority to begin with, and certainly were deluding yourself all along. Stay where you are. We don't want your bad juju spreading around to other once healthy companies.
I have to say, go with your gut feelings. I have worked for a company in Alabama called CyberTechnologies, where it turned out that the company was a sinking ship. there were three partners that owned and ran the company. two of them were busy working other jobs to help finance CyberTechnologies, the other was trying to run the company full-time. bottom line was that the 3rd owner was apparently writing checks to herself and guess what? me and the other tech working for the company got stiffed. we didnt get payed. i worked for the company for over 3 months and got payed once. i ended losing everything i owned because of my loyalty to the company. that was my fault, but i wanted to give the company a chance. i work for a different company here in california, and i've been with the company for 5 years. everything goes ok at times, sometimes times are tight and i've been asked to hold my paycheck a few times, but i've at least always been paid. but i've done what i can for the company, its time to move on. my loyalties to a company depends on how the company is ran and the type of activities is happening at the company. so you have to analyse the situation. do you think things are going to get better or worse? go with your gut feelings. and remember one thing about 'friends' employees, you may risk yourself helping them out when they're in a jam, but do you really think that they would risk themselves helping you? i think not, but i can be wrong. but most likely not.. save yourself, go where you would be happier and feel stable, afterall, friends and a failing company doesnt pay the bills. bill collectors dont care about you or your feelings or situation. take care of yourself first. 'friends' can come later after securing yourself..