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Windows Expert Jumps Ship
An anonymous reader writes to let us know that Scott Finnie, Computerworld's Windows expert, has given the final verdict to Windows after 3 months of using a Mac. And the verdict is: "Sayonara." Finnie is known to readers here for his many reviews of Vista as it progressed to release. Quoting: "If you give the Mac three months, as I did, you won't go back either. The hardest part is paying for it — everything after that gets easier and easier. Perhaps fittingly, it took me the full three-month trial period to pay off my expensive MacBook Pro. But the darn thing is worth every penny."
There are some issues certainly of migrating from one platform to any other platform, but it has been interesting to see a number of long time Windows users in hard core sciences with entrenched work flows that made them very dependent upon Windows to make the switch. When I joined the current group I was in, I essentially catalyzed a complete switch of our lab that is now percolating to many other labs in the group. These switchers have not and are not switching because I kept hitting them over the head with how great the platform is. Rather, they kept seeing the amazing presentations I gave with the help of apps like Keynote, or how easy it was to host a number of high traffic websites from a single OS X machine (including my blog), our lab site, and Webvision among a number of others. Or even how easy it was for me to replace an SGI, a Windows machine and a older Mac with a single incredibly powerful workstation running OS X. The new MacPros are one of the most amazingly powerful systems for the dollar that I've ever used making scientific calculations quick and easy.
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I switch Windows users on a daily basis to Macs... The next switch will be to Linux. Let's see how long it takes until Linuz is ready for Joe Average.
Why don't you just make 10 louder and make 10 be the top number...and make that a little louder?
I have had my Mac G5 for a year now. There are many things which still aren't quite "perfect" enough yet. I am waiting for OS X 10.5 (as I've never been around for a point release) to see if it is an upgrade.
For me I have one goal: Productivity. I'm am a network administrator for a enterprise company. I'm dripping in Windows but at home, I use a Mac. Why? Final Cut Pro and Aperture. That's it! I'm building my photography business and it's growing.
That said I still miss Windows for a few applications and MOSTLY for the keyboard commands (in the OS GUI). Window Key + R + cmd = CLI. On the Mac it's click or Apple + Space + Term + Click.
Lame.
I see Mac and Mac-like products taking over the home desktop. Not the OS but the "utility" aspect of it. iTV and the iPod are nice because they just sit there.
Microsoft can (and should) have the Enterprise desktops (for now).
what's that you're sitting on? OH THE WADS OF MONEY YOU JUST SAVED!
... just have personal exp. with dell].
Honestly, y0 h0 h0 and a bottle of rum, macs are good computers [I guess...] but dell + linux works just fine [I imagine acer+linux or hp+linux work fine too
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Knock yourselves out!
Why don't you just make 10 louder and make 10 be the top number...and make that a little louder?
I've had 0 issues with my macbook pro (intel core 2 duo) In fact I plan on buying a mac pro in the next 3 months and retiring my linux desktop to the closet as a home server.
Blog -> http://www.element43.net
Perhaps fittingly, it took me the full three-month trial period to pay off my expensive MacBook Pro.
Jesus. Did he buy it from DeBeers, or something?
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
I use both Mac (at work) and PC (at home). I must say that I love my Mac and really can't stand using my PC. I've tried to convince friends to switch, but human nature is simply resistant to change. They have no interest taking time to learn a new OS/Platform even though in the long-run, it will provide a better experience for them. Hopefully, as Windows tries to emulate the great aspects of OS X, it will be less of a learning curve for Mac newbies.
I've also tried to convince friends about the advantage of using a Wacom tablet instead of a mouse. It really is a great interface, but takes a few weeks to get used to.
One day, I'm sure I'll convince at least 1 person to have enough patience to discover the benefits of Mac and a Wacom tablet. But, it has not happened yet.
People who say "money does not buy happiness" are just people without money trying to make themselves feel better.
I'm confused by this. You can run Windows on a Mac with Bootcamp, right?
I suppose what he or the summary meant to say is "PC versus Mac" or, probably, "Windows versus MacOS on a Mac." It's really fallacious to compare an operating system to a computing architecture. You Linux users out there should be angry, since it tacitly implies that the only thing a PC ever runs is Windows.
Personally, I'm a computer gamer. Much of my computer time is spent gaming, with the rest being internet browsing and completion of homework/programming/etc. I use a PC because I want the level of control this architecture provides over my components. I use Windows because, well, for most games I pretty much have to.
(Yes, techincally "PC" means a lot of things. I use the term PC out of convenience, which is probably ironic of me to say given what half of my post is complaining about.)
The market preference is shifting...
And you're adding your two-bits for what reason?
Change if you want, stay if you want. I work on a Mac at home, an MS-Windows based PC at work and Linux my website. I like my Mac, but in a properly managed environment Windows does a good job too. I don't like the "I'm better than you attitude" coming from either side, use what you like and recognise each has its issue - like a significant other, you need decide what attracts you and which issues you can live with.
If I had to choose a new computer tomorrow it would be a Mac, but that's my preference and my choice.
--
If you use the Mac, my choice of apps: Adium, Delicious Library, Disco, TextWrangler, Transmit, Darwin Ports, Handbrake
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
It took me only three months to make the switch. The transition was smooth since I was using Thunderbird and Firefox (switched to Camino later), and got Parallels to run a virtual machine copy of Windows 2000 for my work applications when I work from home. Still got my PC to play video games and run that experimental operating system, Windows Vista.
"They would put an end to all of that"
No it wouldn't, Simple economies of scale will tell you that.
BTW, Apples are built to a higher specification then your 750 dollar bosx.
Comparing all the ing equal, then the price is about the same.
Another thing, time is money and not having to deal with the MS issues would more then pay for any difference.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
About ten years ago I switched from Windows to Linux. I was prompted to make this change by Microsoft's bundling IE 3.0 with Windows 95 OSR2.1 where it would start an installation of IE after the Windows installation concluded. It could be fairly easily cancelled by Ctrl-Alt-Del/End Task, but that one had to so was ridiculous.
Ditching Windows was a little hard as I used to play games, but I was reaching the point where gaming held little appeal for me anyway. Switching to a platform that ran for literally years on end without major crashes demonstrated the value of Linux, and obviously, the lack of worth to Windows.
Microsoft only holds its place because people are too timid to try something else. Apple's OS is slick. Linux has had windowmanagers that mimic the windows shell for many years. For people who don't play computer games it shouldn't be a big deal to switch.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
We had a similar experience, but we replaced all of our workstations with rocks and promptly fired the admins.
I understand that OSX is a solid alternative to Windows, but better stability and security is not going to make me switch. I want the same operating system my friends, parents and neighbours have. It may sound ignorant but it's not.
Although Macs are great (I've had a Macbook, btw), there are still too many issues that need to be solved first. For starters, I enjoy computer games every now and then. Also, despite the fact that Apple does great hardware, I'd like to see third party vendors create Mac hardware too. That's the great thing about PCs. There's endless stuff for and around your computer that is restricted to PC usage.
Full Tilt
Any city, any country, an acknowledge 'expert' ought to be able to buy stuff without bitching.
Is he married?
Oh, wait.....
http://www.gamedb.com/ssps/0/0/00009
or how about World of Warcraft?
There are many games for the Mac.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You get marked as a troll. Because MS makes Apple Fanboi /.ers hurt cry. (Venture Bros refence, FTW)
A PC with linux can be built to far higher specification than a mac locked-in by proprietary Apple. It's crazy to think a USB cable is better if purchased from Apple because they charge you more. Let's not confuse hardware with software quality.
You think journalists make the big bucks, do you?
I'd call myself pro-Apple - I've been a Mac owner since '92 (and a user prior to that), I like and enjoy their products, and I'm happy to give them my hard-earned in exchange for new kit. Similarly, I'm 'pro-Nikon' since picking up my Dad's Nikonos fifteen years ago; even to the extent I'm willing to pay more for one than a comparable Canon. Just because you don't 'get' it doesn't mean loyalty to a company is irrational or misplaced. It's kind of like having a favourite sports team - there doesn't have to be a philosophical reason behind it.
Regarding the Slashdot coverage, I don't think it's necessarily all pro-Apple as much as pro-not-Microsoft. One day we'll reach a point where OS choice in the average school/home/work environment is not predestined. IMO, that's a good outcome for everyone (except MS stockholders & employees).
This sig is false.
...and a high-pitch rumbling in the background: "imgonnafuckingkillgoogleimgonnafuckingkillgooglei mgonnafuckingkillgoogle".
g onnafuckingkillapple"
:)
oh wait...
"imgonnafuckingkillappleimgonnafuckingkillappleim
There...
"Piter, too, is dead."
This is merely a hardware issue in general. We could pick any model from any manufacturer and find people who had issues with their hardware.
Likewise, I know there are plenty of people who will swear by their Dell/HP/Gateway/Mac/PenguinPC. They'll tell stories of dropping it, spilling things on it and having it for 2 decades.
What it comes down to is the fact that all physical things wear down. It could happen in six year or six months. Isn't that what a warrenty is for.....?
I recently switched to a MacBook Pro. While the platform has its advantages, XCode is about ten years behind Microsoft Visual Studio.
Apple really needs a modern development enviornment; without one it will always be second-runner when it comes to variety of applications.
No, I will not work for your startup
Because of how difficult it is to upgrade a Mac compared to a PC. That and so few native OS X games that don't run like crap. And terrible driver support for running Windows on a Mac. Yep, us gamers have known which platform to use for a LONG time now.
I find "Butler" to be very useful. It's a free application (although I donated) and you can set up many aspects of your Mac easily. And it's been around long enough to be well tested.
For me, a Terminal window is control + apple + t, safari is control + apple + s, the calculator is control + apple + c, my editor is control + apple + e. You get the idea. It shouldn't take an experienced user more than 10 minutes to install and configure simple keyboard shortcuts. More complex things might take a little longer, but it's not a biggie.
Why do all mac haters say it is $100/150 per year for service packs? Plesae, you are giving Windoze users a worse rap with this stupidity. I am a Windoze user, don't have a mac (though thinking more and more about it), yet even I know that each of these PAY releases are MAJOR NEW VERSIONS of the Mac OS and NOT SERVICE PACKS!
Stop spreading this fallacy and making Windoze users look stupid(er)
It's like all the power of the CLI with the visual interface of a GUI.
make world, not war
Agreed. I haven't used a Mac in a long time, but I know it must be nice to own a computer where everything works most of the time. They also come with some cool software that I may or may not use.
But then I look at the prices, and for $1500 I can get the same or less than what I would pay about $600 for with some Dell coupons.
I would love to be a convert, but I just haven't been convinced the 150% markup is worth it.
The long and inglorious history of Apple hardware problems makes that statement nothing but sheer fanboyism. I'm not here to defend commodity hardware but if Apple's products are indeed "built to a higher specification" then the company ignores them an awful lot.
You want to know who isn't running Firefox 2.x? They spell it "definately" and "rediculous".
I disagree. It's a bad idea that's badly implemented... and it's not a new idea. Windows has been popping up "I'm about to do something that might be stupid, is that OK?" or "Which stupid mistake do you want me to make now?" dialogs for years now, and the biggest effect they have is to train people to automatically approve security dialogs. As a system administrator I had the same people come to me multiple times saying "Um, Peter, I just clicked 'open' on that popup again and I think I have a virus".
Here's a helpful suggestion for developers. Anytime you're thinking of popping up a dialog like that, ask yourself "how can I make it so the user can *always* cancel the operation", and if there's a way... do that instead. For example, instead of asking the user "Should I automatically open this file you just downloaded in NEW-APPLICATION", consider the possibilities of not automatically opening files at all... give the user a better tool for managing downloads instead.
Oh, and Mac users shouldn't feel smug about this one.
That is what really holds me back from the switch. I like OSX, but don't like the locked nature of Mac hardware. Id easily switch over if I could make quick and easy upgrades to my PC hardware. The OS is nice, but the hardware holds it back for me. Oh and gaming is still an issue, but I could easily ignore that given the opportunity to run on the hardware that I choose.
Apple was always cooler and "better" than Windows, but Apple always found a way to screw it up. I think we would all like to see a world where MS didn't have such a ridiculouly large piece of the desktop, and Apple is still the best bet, but they have a very long way to go.
:)...
And most of the things that stopped Apple from suceeding are still true, i.e.
- they are still a lot more expensive (at least for a good laptop),
- The software choice on Windows is still infinitely better,
- The commodity hardware makers still aren't allowed to make platforms that host Apple's choices. (I think)
- Probably some other things that I have forgotten
So I guess Apple won't make much progress (again). Even if they are better (again).
Ubuntu is plug and play. Actually using it is easier than Windows. For some reason, on windows everything is about the applications, they get in the way, thrusting their way forward to try to be the center of attention and, in the process they make the system less usable. The documents have been relegated to files which have to be opened to use an application.
OSX and Ubuntu, the applications get out of the way, the key is the document, not the application. I don't want to use a word processor, I want to write a letter, it just so happens that I need a word processor to do it. So instead of clicking on the Office icon to start the word processor and then opening a file, I click on the document on my desktop and the relevant application (whatever it is) starts. If you look at a typical Windows desktop, there will be dozens of icons for starting applications and relatively few documents or files, it's completely backwards.
Deleted
Long time user of PCs but there's no comparing the two. You get spoiled fast on a Mac. After reading a large number of reviews about Vista by pro Windows people ironically I'm afraid to buy a new machine. I hate XP because it's always harrassing me. Now I'm reading from people that didn't find XP a hassle that Vista is really bad about the constant prompting? Sorry but that's a massive productivity killer. Also most things don't have drivers yet. Yes I know they'll come out eventually but not overnight. Software was keeping me using Windows but I started researching Mac alternatives again. Final Cut Pro got me to buy a Mac. I think I can switch 90% of my operation to Mac and just keep one machine running Win 2000 for the softwares I can't live without. If most people tried the current Macs they'd switch. For a six year development cycle Vista is a joke. Apple is making more improvements in a single year and they get easier to use not more of a hassle.
i say foo' cause i just don't see how anyone can live without it.. ....well after they're addicted to it anyway
CS majors know the time/space tradeoff, but they never get taught the 3rd, crucial, tradeoff of the set: comprehension!
OK, Well I'll tell you why I switched several years ago. These factors may be or may not map onto any of your requirements.
1. I wanted to tinker around with, and learn a Unix - but I also wanted to run MS Office
2. I was starting a family and new I would want to be creating some home movies and DVDs. I had a video camera with firewire- the iMovie/iDVD/iPhoto combo is SO cheap for what it gives you, that this was the main selling point.
3. I liked OS X - I found it elegant and thought it just 'did things right' not perfect, by any means, but overall a pleasure to use.
4. Decent security. Not perfect, not invulnerable but a good compromise between usability and security.
5. The hardware was cute (it was one of the new G4 angle poise iMacs which fitted nicely in a cramped room).
That was it. When I factored in support for Firewire and the iLife software costs, the price wasn't too far over a comparable PC and I knew it would work without too much dicking about.
It's how you use it son! LOL
Seriously though, it is in the implementation mostly and the ethos secondarily. These things are harder to quantify and you essentially just have to experience it first person rather than trying to academically pick apart the differences, because then you would simply be arguing about interface design, code design, and aesthetics. Basically, the OS simply does not get in your way to perform actions, like supporting USB drives or external peripherals. On OS X, they simply work and with Windows, it's always popping up messages saying "I see you are trying to add new hardware" or something like that. We've simply found that productivity is much higher with OS X than it is with Windows because of all the little stuff like this. The hardware itself is actually pretty good (windows generally runs faster on Mac hardware than it does commodity and the thought that goes into its design is stunning. I still think that the G4 case design is one of the best computer case designs in history, but the same holds true for the OS as well. It is good to see NeXTstep fully mature in OS X and I look forward to what productivity gains 10.5 is going to bring.
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I see lots of labs doing the switch to Linux machines. Easier (you can use the current hardware) and most of all, cheaper. If I am a PI in a project I'd rather spend money in lab equipment and less on computers. For this reason, I would personally not buy Macs, but mid range PCs, and install Linux on them. OpenOffice is good enough for presentation. If you rely on Word for your science paper, well, that's a big mistake to start with, regardless of the platform. LaTex is at its best under Linux. Because large clusters use Linux for the most part, libraries for calculation are vastly available. Unless you do lots of imaging (as you seem to be doing), the Mac won't give you any advantage. Again, I rather buy new PCs and run Linux on them, than buying Macs. Nothing personal, but for my lab I prefer to use the money for science equipment.
>>>t has been interesting to see a number of long time Windows users in hard core sciences with entrenched work flows that made them very dependent upon Windows to make the switch.
This is why Windows is going to lose market share. In the past these processes were embedded in apps which needed Windows to run (run on the desktop). Now that these work flows are being replaced by browser driven apps Windows is not so much a requirement anymore as you just need a browser to run them.
The process of changing will not happen overnight and it will be slow, however, it will take place.
Quality Hosting e3 Servers
I have to agree on the price issue many people raise. I wouldn't say Apple is expensive if you compare their specs to an equivalent PC, but I'd still say they sell expensive systems.
I do think many people want control over their hardware. The only true desktop Apple offers is the Mac Pro. An entry level Mac Pro comes with two dual core xeon processors. Four cores for a home desktop? Maybe for a professional. But your average Joe isn't going to dump $2500 on a desktop for Mac OS and hardware control combined. They'll buy a cheap PC and configure/upgrade as much as possible. They might even find away to hack OS X onto that machine and save a few bucks. I don't think Apple will go on a legal crusade over the OSX86 market.
If apple gave me a $1500 desktop, I'd jump ship on my next PC purchase. I just built a $1300 Core 2 Duo, 2GB RAM system last month and plan on adding a new monitor for a grand total of $1700.00. I'd never get what I wanted out of a new Mac for that price. I'd get a beefed up iMac. pffft.
Wow. What a crap scam.
Doenst even LOOK legit. Even spammers and crapware dealers pay a few bucks for a pretty web presence.
First, I'm a Linux user, not a Mac user. My notebook runs Fedora 6, XP MCE, and MacOSx86 (HP notebook), but my server/desktop runs FC6. I would LOVE to switch everyone I know to FC6, but it's not happening. My Parents' computer won't move because they own businesses and require QuickBooks. With Vista coming out, that means that the next time my mother needs hardware updgrades, she's getting a Mac tower. Her Windows notebook is rather new, and that will stick around for a while.
:)
The number one reason she's going to switch? Vista. The cost of the license, plus the extraordinary hardware it will require (she won't be able to use Home Basic, it'll have to be a higher end license), along with the price of AV and other considerations puts her right past the Mac pricepoint. Of course, the fact that I refuse to support Vista on her computer might be part of it
She'll be able to keep her current XP PC for a bit longer yet, but when it goes, she's getting a Mac.
"He may be mad, but there's method in his madness. [...] It's what drives men mad, being methodical." G.K.Chesterton
Let's not forget one major thing: drivers. Macs gan be the best thing after chocolate. However if you use PCs for real experimental science, computers are supposed to gather data. Good luck finding drivers for specialized hardware for Macs. That is why many labs uses PCs. Luckily many drivers are available for Linux too. This unless you just run code or a website, of course. But then it's not a science lab anymore... ;-)
For every "Windows expert" that switches, there are probably 10 experts that wouldn't. I consider myself a Windows and Linux expert, and I owned a Mac OS X laptop for about 6 months. It was fun to play with, but I would never have considered switching away from Windows as my primary machine.
A) Linky
B) No big business uses refirbs.
C) Most office workers could do there work on an iMac. which is in the same range as most corporate bought PCs
d) They will save money on maintainance.
e) Since you are a business owner(and good for you!), I hope you are taking maintenance, viruses, EULA, and DRM into your TCO.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Someone has read the sig.
You don't have to be smart to use a Mac, you just have to be smart enough to buy one
Fleece!
If I had mod points I'd mark you up for the Venture Brothers quote. Go Team Venture!
Read my short stories - You won't regret it.
How about $169
My mother actually uses a slower version of this same computer (the 400Mhz model) to do Adobe CS2 InDesign and other publishing work, along with light graphics work with Photoshop CS2 (600 DPI scans of half page artwork). It helps that the computer has gotten a little faster with each OS release. Can you run Vista on the computer you mentioned? Because she can make full use of Spotlight on that old 400Mhz Mac and even Leopard should work on it...
Of course, you might want to add a little memory to improve performance, but that's true of the computer you listed as well.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
A) Linky
ubid.com. Tons and tons and tons of them.
B) No big business uses refirbs.
I don't own a big business.
C) Most office workers could do there work on an iMac. which is in the same range as most corporate bought PCs
Any computer made in the past 20 years can do documents. That's not a big deal.
No good accounting software. No good point-of-sale software. That's a big deal.
d) They will save money on maintainance.
What maintenance? Windows Update is automatic.
e) Since you are a business owner(and good for you!), I hope you are taking maintenance, viruses, EULA, and DRM into your TCO.
There's no maintenance. Viruses aren't a problem with basic virus software and employees that aren't brain-dead. EULA's are ignored. DRM isn't applicable to work.
In fact, I just threw out a Pentium 1 last week that I replaced with one of these refurbs. It worked just fine as our main machine (accounting, point of sale, shipping, email, and documents), but was slow. I couldn't get anywhere near that kind of longevity with a Mac because the software/hardware requirements for the OS and the apps changes so frequently.
I don't respond to AC's.
Nothing huge, but his name is spelled Scot. I know this because there are relatively few "well known" Finnies in the world (at least with that spelling), and I happen to be one of them.
-- Ryan Finnie
(hey, it looks like I finally have more google juice than him.)
(subliminal message: download Finnix.)
Perhaps it's switchers like him that makes Bill Gates react like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQmOmdYPKJQ&eurl=
Face it Bill, there's no place to go but DOWN for you.
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
The only useful you find in RTFA - is the list of Mac OS X software. Rest - is mundane routine.
IOW, for me the article is pointless. I'd rated highly an article on topic "100 and one annoyances M$ pushed last minute into Vista - and how to disable them." Most of us would end up using Vista anyway and saying that Mac (or Linux) is better is plain stupid. As if we - IT-drones - had any choice...
At home I can use whatever I like - Windows for games, rest under Linux - but in office all of us are confined to the Redmond's crap.
All hope abandon ye who enter here.
For as much as you spent you would get an iMac, and have:
A Better screen
Gigbit ethernet
More I/O options.
Bluetooth
Faster processor (speculation)
The ability to run OS X and Windows
Sure you can't upgrade the video card. But it already comes with a pretty good card anyway, and will hold up for many years, in addition to being a lot more portable than most computers. The iMac in fact would make an almost ideal LAN computer, where having a slightly lower capability video card more than is made up for in having only one unit to carry back and forth.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I'm giving a talk at the Southern California Linux Expo this weekend, and it will be done on my wife's Mac using Keynote.
I actually mocked the slides up in MagicPoint, but I just don't trust my linux laptop to play well with the VGA port and whatever projecter they might have. The Keynote slides look amazing, and I know her Mac will just work with the display they give me. I sometimes wonder if that was Apple's intention in making Keynote so good. Every presentation with it is basically a MacOS commercial.
I play WOW and Diablo2 just peachy on my Ubuntu box. Wine has come a long way. So far I have only found 1 or 2 games that dont work. Unfortunately its my 3 year olds kids games. They HAVE to have 256 colors to run and a 3 year old is not able to switch around the resolution and colors to play a game.
MISSING - Sig file. 2 years old black and white and very funny. If found please email me.
Because of how difficult it is to upgrade a Mac compared to a PC.
For desktop Macs it's actually far easier to upgrade, as the case and components are way more acccessible. There are few cases that I would say anyone on earth could add a HD, Apple has one of them. And four bays so you have room to grow.
But really, the thing is with Macs they ship with good hardware at the start so you don't need to upgrade beyond the obvious things like memory or HD. That's why people use them for several years instead of just two. I used my last Powerbook for four years before I finally gave in and bought a Macbook Pro.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Nice straw-man.
The least expensive mac has a 1.66 GHz Core Duo processor, 512M of RAM, a 60GB hard disk and a DVD / CDRW drive and Gig-E. It is $599.
Your comparison machine is used, not as fast, has a smaller hard drive and (presumably) no optical drive. Try again. Remember, the object of the game is to find the same configuration for less money.
Comparing all the ing equal, then the price is about the same.
Not in the least. I can buy a $200 PC and do anything I want with it. (How about using a 500 MB Quickbooks file all day?). A $200 Mac is pretty much a doorstop.
I don't respond to AC's.
A PC with linux can be built to far higher specification than a mac locked-in by proprietary Apple. It's crazy to think a USB cable is better if purchased from Apple because they charge you more. Let's not confuse hardware with software quality.
Apple does not even sell USB cables! What exactly is worse about a system that:
* Uses high quality components
* Uses EFI instead of BIOS for booting
* has a million different I/O paths built in, including Firewire and Bluetooth and Gigabit ethernet even in the cheapest Mac mini?
That sounds like an AWESOME platform for Linux. And because some of the hardware (like firewire and Bluetooth) is more homogenized, it means that it would probably work better in Linux right off the bat as there would be less testing involved.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Apple doesn't make USB cables. But their online store sells Belkin cables at 20 bucks a pop. Belkin cables _are_ built to high specifications, but whatever. Thanks for the non-sequitor.
... what's your point? Like the GP said: TIME IS MONEY. Whether software and hardware quality are "confused" is completely irrelevant. Even if the (now mythical) Apple hardware 'tax' were in effect, the up-front fee would pay for itself tenfold in the first couple years of use, because you'll be hacking in OS X.
And so a PC can be built to higher (but I doubt FAR higher, as you claim) specs than the top-of-the-line Mac
Try again. Remember, the object of the game is to find the same configuration for less money.
Not at all. I could care less what the specs are. I don't need bragging rights. I need to be able to USE my machines. I can DO much more with a $600 PC than I could ever do with a $600 Mac. $600 is a high end PC. $600 is a low-end Mac (that you can't upgrade).
I don't respond to AC's.
i think you actually agreed with him...
but anyway, it's fully true. at work they ask me to add popups to warn of this or all the time, to point where in certain cases one has to click through up to 4 popups just to get to a single form. The wanted separate popups for each one. I said it will only work for a while then they will just ignore it and click it. they say "maybe, but I want it anyway". apparently there's some popular belief that popups can fix stupid, well, they can't. they may delay it a bit, but there is no fix for stupid.
- Disclaimer: Information in this post deemed reliable but not guaranteed.
Not in the least. I can buy a $200 PC and do anything I want with it. (How about using a 500 MB Quickbooks file all day?). A $200 Mac is pretty much a doorstop.
If I bought a $200 PC, the only thing I'd want to do with it would be use it as a doorstop.
So no difference there.
Parents buying computers for their kids for college/hs are going to care about one thing: Price.
Ummm No! Most parrents look at the course requirements. After meeting the requirements, second is price. Some schools require XP & IE for their applications, Web applications, and/or secure wireless connectivity client. Not all schools or classes in a school have Microsoft requirements so Linux and Mac are OK. As Linux and Apple become more common alternatives to the MS monoculture, pressure is on the schools to become platform agnostic.
In many places the requirements instead of listing a platform simply list file compatabilities such as Acrobat 5, Flash 9, Firefox 5, Wireless G, etc.
The truth shall set you free!
That old canard is getting very tired.
To use a simple example, I'm quite fed up with the layman asking why I use a Mac, when it's "not compatible with, say, Word or Excel", then when I let them know that Excel was originally for the Mac, and all Office apps are available for Mac, and the files are cross-platform, I get blank stares and "Ummm...I didn't know that". And yet they still have an "opinion".
"Yeah, but I like Yahoo Messenger, or MSN, or whatever". There's Adium. "Ummm..."
Tired old canard indeed.
Lil' Thindime, lilting a lacrimose lament, krashes the kwaint konfines of Kokonino Kounty
My $200 machine right now: Explorer, Thunderbird (4 mailboxes), UPS World Ship, Point of Sale software, Financial software, Firefox. And it's snappy.
I don't respond to AC's.
Macs are competitively priced for the hardware, but they still require you to change your hardware. Apple started their Switch campaign a few months after I bought my current laptop. Had they started earlier, I probably would have bought a Mac, but as the timing stood, I had a PC and it was going to be a few years before I thought about replacing it. During that time I grew incredibly tired of Windows, and decided to try out Linux, which I was able to put on my current hardware. Earlier this week, I decided it's time for a new laptop, and settled on a System76 Gazelle. Apple missed their chance - I was looking for a new operating system, and would have gladly dropped $200 or so to put it on my current hardware, but it wasn't in my budget to pay $1049 for a MacBook. By the time I was looking for a new system, I was hooked on Linux.
That's not completely true. I was able to build a nice Linux box for myself for about $500, $200 of which was spent on a couple of TV tuners for using MythTV, and most of the rest was spent on my 400 GB RAID. The remainder of the system, (case, RAM, mobo, cpu & fan), cost only $120 after some rebates. I spent $15 on a serial IR port for my MythTV setup, and programmed it to use a remote I already had. It's both cheaper and more functional than a mac mini, though it does have a larger footprint.
Macs also tend to come with everything you could possibly need, whether or not you really need it. The Mac Mini comes with WiFi, Bluetooth, a remote, digital audio, and DVI by default, but many desktop users are going to use Cat5, a wired keyboard and mouse, regular speakers, the VGA-DVI adapter, and lose the remote in a drawer somewhere. It would be nice to be able to choose from the features you want from your computer and be able to save a few bucks.
I think Apple would do well to have some commodity hardware. A tower with specs similar to a mini would be quite a bit cheaper, since they don't have to be as compact to be just as functional. Their laptops aren't going to get much cheaper without sacrificing performance, but I don't think it would hurt to have something they could sell at $800 rather than over $1000 for the cheapest laptop. Drop Bluetooth, DVI and the built in iSight, and you're well within that price range.
In short, switching to a Mac is an expensive proposition because it requires that you get new hardware, and you'll likely get more than you'll really use. I realize Apple has a reputation to maintain as a high quality computer vendor, but it's a far stretch to say that it's not expensive to switch to a mac.
When I first saw the headline among my RSS feeds, I thought Mark Russinovich went back out on his own. Somehow that idea made me feel warm & fuzzy.
Pi Ran Out
It's crazy to think a USB cable is better if purchased from Apple because they charge you more.
but it's white! and it has stylized ends! it HAS to be better!
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Unfortunately, $600 at the Dell store will not buy a low-profile system with an embedded 20" LCD (neither will $1500, since they don't make one). Assemble a decent Core 2 Duo system through Dell's site and add in the $450 20" monitor, and the iMac markup doesn't look so bad for a system with half the footprint. The $999 with the 17" looks even better price-wise.
(And I work at a Dell-only shop. The Mac Pros would be cheaper that what we're buying, but no one wants to draw attention to themselves by buying something other than a Dell.)
I gave the Mac 5 years. Guess what? I'm back with Windows.
...and I buy my kids Macs.
You see, I love my kids.
--
Franklin
Your quote:
You can pay $1300 for a mac...or you can spend $700 for a PC. Which do you THINK parents are going to buy?
It's crazy to think a USB cable is better if purchased from Apple because they charge you more. Let's not confuse hardware with software quality.
Perhaps, but it's not so crazy to think that a computer is better if purchased from Apple because they charge you more. Let's not confuse cables with components.
--
Franklin
What're these "must-have" features in KDE? Any time I've used it, I've found a bunch of stupidly-named applications, and a big, bulky UI filled with toolbars. I'd rather use GNOME. Hell, I'd rather use Windows.
There are a lot of excellent KDE applications, none of which require you to use their window manager:
There's more that I missed, I'm sure. Everytime I turn around there seems to be some nice new application from them.
Like I said, you don't have to use the window manager to use these applications. They work just as well or better under the window manager of your choice.
Best of all, it's all free! That's why there's so much of it and why it all works together.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
I've enjoyed a great new filling for sandwiches, omelettes, fritters and more foodstuffs than you can imagine. Put it with chips, peas, cheese, lettuce, in pies and on pizza, roast it, toast it, boast about it:
Spam.
I've been using Windows from day 1, and seen the Mac as a curiosity. Being a hard core Unix junkie and developer, with the switch to OS X, my ears perked up for sure. The switch the Intel, even more so, so I picked up a Macbook. Well, baby, there's no looking back.
I only got the Macbook because it was a fast x86 machine that could run Windows (faster than most laptops, it turns out), and I had Parallels to run a virtualized Windows (Crossover and VMWare still suck on OS X, but won't before long I'm sure). But guess what? I haven't booted Parallels in a week, and probably won't for another month. Almost *everything* works under OS X. VLC Player filled in the "play windows media files" hole, which really was one of the last reasons to boot Windows. Good bye windows, and Sayonara indeed!
Yes, Jobs might be slightly evil ("Evil light, just one Calorie!" as Dr. Evil might say), but as compared to MS, he's freakin' Mother Theresa. (Oh wait, she was a little evil, too. But you know what I mean.) Even though Jobs obviously has Apple's shareholders' bottom line in mind, and embraces DRM, etc., etc., at least Apple shows a slight bit of respect for the consumer, while taking their money. MS is just stabbing in the dark, and nothing short of offensive in their business practices.
In short, I love my Mac. I'll develop on it, likely deploy on Linux (LAMP is LAMP, on OS X or Linux), while having a wonderful desktop to use in the meantime.
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
You really aren't getting the rules of this game at all. If you're going to compare refurbished PCs with Macs then you should compare with Macs on eBay. These rules really are simple - it's hard to understand how anyone could fail to understand them.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
Well, if someone likes Apple equipment, it makes sense for them to be pro Apple: the more people who use Apple equipment the easier life is for Apple users (more software is made, more websites work with Safari, etc.) I can't explain Proctor and Gamble in the same way. Some would say that people just like to identify and belong to gorups -- explains nationalism and whatnot. Maybe people are generally nice so they recomend things they like to other people. Is there anything wrong with that? What causes people to be so OMG I'M SO SUPERIOR THAT I TYPE IN CAPS anti pro things? What's it to you?
I have nothing against Macs at all. I've never used one except for like 15 years ago at school, so my experience is pretty limited.
The thing that pisses me off is your stereotypical Mac user. "OMG sif use M$ Windoze you should use Macs there way kewl" (spelling/grammar errors intended).
I'll use a Mac if and when I decide to try it and if I like it, not just because a Mac user pushes me around. Linux elitests can be somewhat similar in this, but usually not half as bad.
I've used Ubuntu desktop briefly and I quite liked it. There's only two reasons I haven't moved to it:
a) JMicron support is still screwy, b) I'm too scared to run World of Warcraft (the only game I play) after the whole Cedega banned account deal (even if it's supposedly resolved now).
Homonyms are fun!
You're driving your car, but they're riding their bikes there.
Stop right there.
In Linspire's CNR Warehouse there are no "Greeting Card" programs.
20,000 titles.
But nothing to replace The Print Shop, which has been doing business at the same old stand for about twenty-five years.
Page through the catalog as a home user would.
Strip away the programs that are available for Windows, then ask yourself what is left and what is missing. You may not find the answers very comforting.
My coworker had a G4 Tower he sold me and I used it and I got my OS X fix in. After a few months I got tired of it and wanted to go back to Windows. It was nice but it got annoying and I felt very limited when I was using it. I sold it and now I have no urge to use OS X.
So here I am 6 months later typing this on Windows XP...
just my 2 cents.
http://seanism.com/
I am nearing the point of upgrading my Windows box (Athlon XP) to a new dual core. I really wanted to give Apple a shot. But the lack of Hardware really had me give up. I was willing to pay a small premium but still there was nothing.
First I have two monitors, so a built in monitor computer is out. Even if I needed a monitor, I would not be Crazy about tying them together permanently.
That leaves the Mini and the Pro. I wanted decent graphics (~7600GT) so the mini was shot down.
That left the pro. Way too much money. That left: another new windows box.
There is just no reasonably priced Mac with even remotely mainstream graphics power.
It is not so much that Apple takes an excessive profit margin, it is that they choose components that have poor bang/buck. The mini is built out of laptop components that all cost more and have less power. Graphics power seems completely irrelevant to Apple as well. You move to the Pro and you are forced to buy overkill Dual Xeons with ECC memory.
I have no problem with Apple controlling their HW, but with that they need to offer broader HW choices.
You are absolutely right.
And that Linux box will run iMovie, GarageBand, iTunes, Microsot Office, require no command-line knowledge, and work out of the box with most major peripherals without having to download or install any drivers, right?
Right?
*crickets*
I love linux. I do. I reccomend it constantly. But the truth is, it isn't there yet for most people.
How can you fullscreen an application? it annoys me no end that maximise ...doesn't
I've used osx on and off for years, and there are many little things that I find make it slow (workflow not proccessing speed) and frustrating to work with compared to the way I work in windows, but this is the only thing that's always just frustrated the hell out of me.
I hear you. Being proud of Linux, is being proud of something that's collectively owned by everyone. It's like being proud of a National park. Being proud of a Mac, is like bring proud of a company's skyscraper, or your wealthy neighbours back yard.
Having said that, if Macs got 25 - 30% market share, it'd make the IT-world a better place, would help Linux (because of more open standards) and would spur MS to make some half-decent software, and stop being such assholes. I definitely don't think that Macs are _ever_ going to destroy cheap commodity hardware.
The so-called moderator that called this flamebait is a dipshit. Fact of the matter is, the mac is not going to get a full fledged swing in it's favor until AAA -=current=- gaming titles are -=consistantly=- released on the platform.
If you think that is an invalid point worthy of being called flamebait, then you (and YOU, the guy shaking his head no) are morons.
P.S. You have my express written consent to call this reply flamebait. Maybe I should have just written I LOVE MAC! Then I guess I'd be a better contributor, eh?
If you're not impressed, I gather you haven't looked too closely. I think that if you ever got into programming Mac OS X and became intimate with its underpinnings, you'd be forever in love with it. You'd also wonder just why just about every other OS has such a lame set of APIs.
I guess I can justify my love for Mac OS X on a similar basis as my love for the *idea* of Linux, which is that they both adhere to the *nix Way. The fact that Microsoft hasn't tossed rebuilt their aging OS fro the ground up just baffles me. *nix is the future, and Windows is a relic.
-- thinkyhead software and media
In Linux, your documents are in Documents, right there on the desktop, the applications are in Applications, organised by purpose.
Face it, Windows is now the hardest to use of the three. It's desktop metaphor is fubar, the applications are hidden away by vendor so you have to know who makes the sofware you want to use to work.
Deleted
You're either cosmically unlucky, or dropping your laptops every time you pick them up.
I work at a 80k+ user institution. Over eighty thousand, a large percentage of whom have laptops and use both our services, our sales channels, and our help desk. I see a very large sample size.
The MBP has its problems just like anything, but far less than any other laptop. Biggest issue was heat in early models, no longer a problem.
I don't see the amount of problems you're talking about in 150 machines, much less eight. Seriously. This isn't an attack on you, you just may want to examine what's going on in your environment or supply chain.
People are pro ---- because they found a product/company that they are happy with. They found something that makes their life better and are publicly stating this fact so that others may also benefit from the product/company. It doesn't matter what product or service they are talking about, the reasons are generally the same. The same applies when people are anti ----, just for different reasons. They got screwed over by a product/service and they are spreading the word so that others can avoid making the same mistakes that they made. It's basic human nature. Come to think of it, ants do the same thing. ;)
I agree with you completely and don't think anyone wants Apple to dominate the desktop market. But wouldn't it be great if they had a 20% market share? Now developers will think more about cross-platform compatibility. This would benefit everyone (Mac, Linux, Solaris, FreeBSD, - but not Microsoft).
Nobody is trying to make you buy a Mac - well, except maybe Apple. If you're happy then that's great. Personally, I'm hesitant recommending a Mac to most people for fear there is an application they can no longer run. But for certain people a Mac makes a lot of sense.
What people are trying to tell you is that, if you have the opportunity, you should give MacOS a try. And it takes more then a day so give it a couple of months. You will either think it is a waste of money and stick with Windows or you will have found a better way to get your work done. Either way, you would come out knowing more then when you started. People might not agree with your choice, but they will respect it.
WillyDude, if you used TextEdit (ie included with Mac OS X) then you already had a plain text editor available.
Dear god, if you couldn't work out how to find TextEdit (clue, Applications --> TextEdit) I really don't ever want to see the quality of your code!
and I hate 99% of consoles. I like, and purchased a Wii, my first console ever (I've played them before just never owned one myself) and while its fun, it won't replace PC gaming for me. The switch right now is on the developers. If they start making their programs for everything you'll start to see what the market really looks like rather than a twisted market where someone is sticking with a specific platform because of one or more applications/games. I'd be over to linux in a heart beat on my home machines if all programs were equally supported on all platforms.
At least round here (Perth, Australia), in terms of Firewire cables Apple's ones _are_ superior. For the sole reason that they're about 3mm thick (~0.1" I guess?), as opposed to all the other ones you get that are at least twice that. Thinking design is useful :) But yeah. You can get what you pay for with any platform.
considering that Jim Gray is still missing at sea this headline is really bad taste.
I mean.. Microsoft has to attack everyone who puts 1's and 0's in order.. when did they have time to make Vista?
They attack Apple, Google, Adobie, Sun, IBM, HP, Yahoo, Myspace, Real, Firefox, AOL, Open Office, Corel, Sony, Nintendo, RedHat, Novell, Motorola, Nokia, Earthlink, Symantec, Trend Micro, Webroot.. you name it they are after it.
Surpised they had time to worry about Vista..
Bringing liberty to the masses. - http://freetalklive.com/
I don't particularly believe that someone who is a proclaimed expert in a field of marketing could provide an unbiased view. Regardless of the perceived quality of the argument, it will always be flawed.
A better case is when the average Joe/Jane who switches to a MacBook "'cause it's pretty" and "the glowing apple is sweet". And decides to never go back to Windows because of the opinion that "Mac OS doesn't get viruses" and "iPhoto is cool".
I've used Vista and I've used Mac OS, and I don't think that Vista sucks as much as Mac OS rocks. Based on all the negative press, one should believe that that is the situation.
Hey, I was a windows user for fifteen years. I've also been a developer for AIX and been using Slackware since it was born- still do on all my servers (and not planning to change that).
I bought my first mac (Mac Pro) two months ago to replace my desktop on the home computer. I'm now in the process of replacing ALL my windows computers with Macs in my business too, starting with the CEO (my own box). Costly, yes. But I'm convinced it will be well worth it.
Why are Macs better- I believe it's because of a dedication to this quote: "People who are serious about software design their own hardware." I forget who said it, but as a programmer, I agree 100% and I believe it's BETTER that you have to buy the OS AND the hardware from Mac.
Go Steve!
-Episode 1
Y0d4- to >g4+35
Windows is the path to the dark side. Windows leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
-Episode 4
06iw4n- to >1uk3
I have something here for you. Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old 06iw4n on some damn fool idealistic crusade like your father did. It's your father's OSX. This is the weapon of a Computer User. Not as clumsy or as random as a Windows OS, but an elegant weapon for a more civilized age. For over a thousand generations, the Computer Users were the guardians of # and / in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire.
Ironically the six computer I bought were Mac Minis. They were nearly exactly what we were looking for. Dual Core, Slow Clock (runs cool), really small form factor, gigabit ethernet, USB+DVI. We use them as reservation terminals for our Northern California Campground.
I'm kind of curious 'cause I did a lot of shopping around- is there a similarly spec'd cheaper core duo (need not be core 2 duo) compy out there? We were looking for Core Duo, Min 512MB Ram, only need like 20GB of HD, don't need a CD drive optional, Gigabit Ethernet, decent onboard graphics in a small form factor.
Back on topic I can't wait for the day that we get a good Mac client for our res system (likely never). Still, we're waiting to jump ship too.
Ed
That old canard is getting very tired. When compared to equivalent hardware and bundles, Macs are very competitive.
The problem is as soon as you step outside one of those narrow sets of hardware specification, you're pretty much stuffed when it comes to Macs. This is a problem, because there are 2 - 4 gaping holes in Apple's hardware lineup (and that's just regarding desktops and notebooks).
So, yes, while comparing, say, a 20" iMac to an equivalent PC is quite favourable for the iMac, if you want one of those things the iMac can't deliver (like, say, an upgradable video card or a separate LCD), suddenly the PC becomes a _far_ better deal.
Y'know, I was supporting you until you said that. People telling you that you didn't understand the game, people insulting you personally because you believe that PCs are a better option, people telling you that you should get a Mac just because. You're right, in that the cost of entry into the marketplace is significantly lower with PCs. You can put together a *new* PC for under $300 that'll do everything you need to do for business. It'll run Office, it'll do e-mail, it'll be able to surf. It's certainly not a gaming rig, but it's half the cost of an entry-level Mac. For a business, that's a very significant thing.
But *please* don't tell me that you rely on Windows Update for your maintenance. It should not be relied on for a corporate system, because there have been many instances where MS has actually caused more serious errors by rushing fixes to Winodws Update. You could be screwing yourself over by letting it handle your system maintenance. Instead, I'd suggest that the site be blocked, and that you download the patches directly from MS and periodically install them on the computers on the net. That can be automated by means of a login script, even. It'll give you much greater control over what is running on each desktop, which can save you an enormous headache down the road.
I sincerely hope I never have to work with you. You're an idiot. Repeat after me: Running Antivirus does NOT immunize against viruses. It significantly reduces the risk of contracting a virus, but no software has a 100% catch rate, particularly with new viruses coming out every day. Do NOT rely on your antivirus to do all the job, because you WILL eventually have a problem. You still need to use your brain and a degree of wariness when you use your computer, or you will eventually get burned.
And I sincerely hope you're going to revisit that whole ignoring EULA thing, because if not, then you're screwed when somebody decides to do a software audit. They do them, and small businesses are usually the ones that get screwed over. Do everything legal. It's simply not worth it in the long run.
Finally, DRM most certainly is an important consideration. It applies to a heck of a lot more than just movies and MP3 files. You'd do well to look into exactly what the implications of your software are.
If you believe everything you read, you'd better not read. - Japanese proverb
The only thing which kept me from abandoning Windows when XP came out was the access I had to a no-activation-required corporate copy of XP. I will not put up with needing to call support because something changed on my system. I've never needed to call support for help with anything, and I'm not going to start now.
s hitpile-on-craigslist-next-week-cause-I-can't-pay- the-bill pussies. Even allowing that a quarter of them got the parts through the Intel employee-discount program, its a sad sight.
OS X doesn't require any activation bullshit. For me, that is almost enough by itself to justify the extra cost. I'm also happy that the decision of whether to update is left at my discretion. No annoying ballons whine about updates being disabled for example.
In the time between the purchase of a newly shipping Amiga 500 and my MacBook Pro, every system I've owned was hand assembled from parts I picked out. Over the years, I was happy with the 386 and its descendents.
But during that time I've seen controllerless modems, capacitor death, increasingly flimsy motherboards, low cycle count PCI connectors, shitty chipsets, dead pixels, unusually short lived fans, binary only drivers, outragously hot processors, and non-functional features a-plenty. Build-it-yourself PCs lost their lustre for me. All the component brands with traditions of quality have gradually become no better than the average. With a few exceptions, the industry is a discouraging mess.
There is no motivation for improvement. The mouth breathing masses keep financing 2k$ Dell or HP game machines every other year. Even stiff necked Intel has screwed the pooch long enough to be playing catchup to AMD. Morale is pretty low over there.
And those people who haven't given up on building their own machines have devolved into take-a-credit-card-to-fry's-and-sell-the-glowing-
Microsoft long ago stopped any making any worthwhile improvements, and is in the business of turning the crank on the upgrade cash machine. Direct X 10? Gotta have Vista! Yawn.
The era of self-built and self-installed systems is almost over. The cattle won't protect themselves, so the platform will do it for them.
Some people put their hope in Linux. But the one enduring quality you can count on with Linux fans, is their cheapness. No significant hardware success story has come out of the years the Linux market has grown. Where are the "Designed for Linux" stickers. Even sad-old-Netware had stickers.
Apple hardware, like anything with any desirability, is going to cost more. But it ships with GCC. And Ruby. And Perl. And Python. And Xcode. And not-Internet Explorer. Its a good platform for anything but gaming. But they're not for everyone.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Oh, You're BWJones.
I never clicked on your site link before today but I've always enjoyed your comments.
Cheers, Ed
I don't know how you ever lived without it. I've cut my catalogue to apps addresses and just a few other bits (plugins). You've hear it plenty by now.
AutoCAD 2007 runs just fine in Parallels.
I'd take iTunes over WMP, iPhoto over the Camera and Scanner Wizard, and iMovie over Windows Movie Maker any day. I've also used OS X on 3 recent Core Duo machines and if was very snappy, I would hardly say it crawls.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
I work in an office that is 100% Windows based, and I bring my Powerbook with me to work everyday for my personal stuff, and inevitably wind up using it to solve some problem that our Windows machines can't fix (admittedly sometimes due to the fact that end users are locked out of everything -- which is due to XP's neato take on what a multi-user environment is).
6 out of 6 of the last personal computers purchased by employees (for personal use) were Macs. All end-users are more than happy with their purchases as most of them had gone the Windows route on their previous machines and can genuinely appreciate the Mac & OS X user experience.
Another thing... almost 100% of all purchases are emotional decisions. People just tend to make up supporting "logical facts" to help themselves deal with the fact that they bought something simply because they wanted it.
Right click on the file and it'll pop up a contextual menu with the top two choices as "Open" and "Open with...". If you select "Open with..." it'll show you what the default program is to open that type of file, and what other apps you have installed that might be able to do it. You will have TextEdit on your system, as the AC already pointed out, and it will edit .txt and .rtf. It will also edit .html, as it's just plain text. You lose at computing by doing it the HARD WINDOWS WAY. If you need to do something, try to do it. Don't go looking for an app to do something simple, like you would on a PC (ie unzip a file).
step 1: google "os x text editor" step 2: there is no step 2
I remember going to a friend's house and getting bittorrent to work on her Macintosh in 10 minutes because Macintosh had an "internet settings" page.
It was the nicest experience I've had on a Mac in 20 years. After that, we tried to figure out why her desktop icons were disappearing. LOL. Reboot, retry, good luck.
"Hey Mike, what do I do when my downloaded files disappear?"
"It shouldn't happen. Reboot, retry, good luck."
Windows gives me a lot of problems, but things don't just disappear. That's what I expect from a system that's written by *cough* twenty people.
There is an option in TextEdit, Shift-Comand-T, that switches between plain text and rich text. (also under Format - Make Plain Text/Make Rich Text)
No kidding, when I open this post, the first thing I see is the "Wow" ad, and "getting windows vista today". Bet it's context-sensitive ad targetting in the worst example.
But... We're on Slashdot. And the average Joe here on Slashdot just isn't going give up the versatility of a PC unless they can afford a Mac Pro. It's that simple. Ask any self respecting computer geek if he would by an iMac for their primary desktop.
Something to think about here is that Slashdot is also filled with aging geeks with consoles.
What does that really mean? It means that all many of these geeks end up upgradign very often is memory and hard drive space - I bowed out of PC gaming a few years back, content with Console gaming which is really getting most of the PC games now anyway! And it's not like you can't open up an iMac, it's just fewer parts you can change out but more desk space to store interesting toys.
It's not even unrealistic considering the iMac is essnetially the new "tower" with more and more people going laptop only for primary systems. The iMac then becomes more like the fixed server of the house.
So while there will always be a number of people that really need a fully changable desktop, an iMac will do for quite a few people - even as a primary desktop.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Automatic pain in the ass is more like it.
My company supports a few dozen small- to medium-sized companies, maybe a few hundred workstations and servers. Majority are Windows, with some Macs in design/graphics companies. Allow me to share some Windows Update tragedies...
Automatic Windows Updates are like playing Russian Roulette with five rounds in the revolver. But hey, living dangerously is wicked fun.
Okay, in the interest of fairness, a couple of years ago an OS X Security Update broke Samba for me (though it only affected one of my home PCs). I worked it out eventually, recompiling Samba from source. But still, compare the percentage of Mac users who use Samba with the percentage of PC users who have HP printers and use Word (see verclsid.exe bullet above).
k.
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
It's not hard to see why the Mac would be a hit with slashdotters: You get UNIX all the way down, so to speak, and you get most of the key commercial apps at the same time. UNIX/Linux/BSD certainly isn't the epitome of software design, but at least it's relatively secure and lets you easily use standard tools and OSS.
I'd be getting a few dozen less "Virus Detected" notifications daily from a mailserver for a start. There are a lot of compromised machines out there trying to send me garbage and not one of them is a Mac.
So a 12" Powerbook G4 was freed up from work, so I took it home to play.
Ok, not a bad machine per se. But here's what really frosts my cookies, I cannot for the life of me get it to connect to my Linksys WAP54G. Some googling indicates that this is a known problem for Apple, and the fix is Panther. Except I don't have Panther - this is a 10.2.8 machine.
Bad Apple, very bad Apple. I was considering a Macbook but if this is what I can expect you just lost a potential new customer. Too bad.
In order to be accepted, you must travel into the future, install Firefox 5 on your machine, and come back in one piece.
Post-rock/Ambient/Drone and other noise.
You might like to spend your money paying for a glitzy web site but I would rather have my money go to getting top notch hardware and software.
www.curtissystemssoftware.com/preloads.htm
www.ecomstation.com
www.os2world.com (user supported web site)
www.os2voice.org (user group)
Jumped to eComStation and OpenOffice.org
by user_ecs (878826) on Thursday February 08
For Christmas I bought a new computer preloaded with eComStation and OpneOffice.org. I have had too many problems with Dells and Gateways so I bought the system from CSS because I wanted good quality hardware (ie ECC memory, etc).
www.curtissystemssoftware.com/preloads.htm
eComStation, much more stable and secure than windows yet much friendlier than Linux
If it were ever to happen you would see a landslide of switchers. This would after several years, I believe, creep into the corporate environment. Microsoft would be the sad nerd at the party that no one talks to. What a sweet vision that would be.
Don't they do burn-ins anymore? Or is that no longer cost effective, they just ghost the image onto zillions of drives and hope enough of them work? Seems most smaller shops still do 24 hour burn ins.
Anyway, I always thought that was the last real quality assurance before something went out the door, so to sell with no OS, you'd have to load one, burn it in to see if it worked, then wipe the disk several times.
But I agree, they should sell blank computers, I just don't think the cost would be zero extra, it seems like it would have to be a few bucks a machine anyway regardless, just from the extra work.
The real bottom line is though, you CAN get blank machines or machines with linux, etc from any number of vendors now, even in large quantities. they just aren't dell or hp or at bestbuy, etc, but you can get them. The tier 2 and 3 and 4 vendors are out there, just needs to look.
"So yes, even with the Intel Macs, you can get machines cheaper than what Apple well sell them for. However, it's no surprise you can get a cheaper machine with lesser hardware! However, if you try to match the basic specs, and a couple of the accessories (ie: no consumer machine today should ship without wifi!) you're not going to save a lot of money over the Mac."
The opposite is also true. The various accessories might cost a lot to add, but you save a lot if you don't add them because don't need them. Having something like firewire or a camera bundled only justifies the cost if you're willing to pay for that stuff, if it'll give you some benefit. It's not reasonable to simply point at all the stuff an iMac has, and point at how much it costs to match that with a PC, if you'd never get a PC like that. It's a comparison without meaningful context.
I was in this position when I got my current machine. Mac Pros are priced pretty reasonably as dual-Xeon machines go, but having all that CPU power was never my goal. I wanted RAID for data integrity, and PCI-E to allow for upgrades in the future, and nothing about that requires dual-Xeons. For my needs, a Mac Pro is stupidly expensive.
Similarly, if you don't need a remote, or firewire, or a webcam, or a fancy graphics card, then you're paying a lot for an machine that is well equipped in ways that don't benefit you. Conversely, if you want more than an iMac offers, you're SOL. If you'd prefer to substitute firewire for an interface that's fast enough to handle current hard drives like eSATA, or want something better than an underclocked 7600GT, or want 4 gb of memory, then there's just no way to do it with an iMac.
They may be sufficiently well equipped to justify the cost, but that does not imply one's needs justify the expense.
I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
In order to be accepted, you must travel into the future, install Firefox 5 on your machine, and come back in one piece.
I see you didn't sign up for the same quantum mechanics class I did.
The truth shall set you free!
If the Dell has a touchpad, and it's anything like the one I'm using now, it will SUCK ASS. Seriously.
First, it's GNU Emacs (or XEmacs, or Aquamacs Emacs), not EMACS. That just makes you look like a 'tard.
Second, as others have pointed out, the cryptically named TextEdit edits plaintext no problem; I'll admit that hiding the rich text to plaintext conversion under the Format menu makes things difficult, but there you are.
Third, if you're so inclined (and you *are* a developer, right?) Apple estimates that it'd take you 15 minutes to roll your own and even provides instructions:
Text System Overview: Building a Text Editor in 15 Minutes
I'd like to know what's lacking developerwise. I develop Common Lisp (both SBCL and OpenMCL), Perl, Python, C, Obj-C, and Haskell on mine without issues. But then I do know Emacs...
Why don't you try it before you criticize it? You don't have to buy one. Just try it in a store.
This space left intentionally blank.
I don't know how to use old-school editors like EMACS
Let's see.
day@ockham:~ emacs myfile.txt
(Type stuff, then click File->Exit,and save at the prompt)
day@ockham:~
What's so difficult?
otherwise they are going to have to get their hardware/software monopoly busted. Then they'll have to make it available for X86 and they'll have to start dealing with all that crappy hardware out there just like MS. That and they'll have to keep people from pirating the software resulting in draconian limitations. If they have such a great OS then the FTC should snap the unfair advantage Apple has over Microsoft.
I made the switch back in the days of 10.0. Year after year, I find myself putting out fewer fires. Now, I can't believe I spent time with that other OS doing things like defragging, virus scans, spyware scans, and my favorite- the clean reinstall. OS X moves to the background and I actually get work done on it. My powerbook is my workhorse. But, I would like to see a OSX on a Thinkpad. Reliable OS on reliable hardware.
You don't have to be smart to use a Mac, you just have to be smart enough to buy one
You statement is too simplistic. You should include the hours it take to build the system and install and optimized Linux with similar open source applications. Take those hours and multiply by you hourly pay rate. Add that to the cost of components and compare it to the price of a mac. Now, don't get me wrong, build your higher spec system if you like just how people build thier own house. Just accept that it is not for everyone much like building a house.
You don't have to be smart to use a Mac, you just have to be smart enough to buy one
What the hell are you talking about? Dude, with textedit, hit shift-command-t to convert to plain text. Give it whatever extension you want when it saves. Here is a better thought. Use freaking Xcode that came with mac to develop you software.
You don't have to be smart to use a Mac, you just have to be smart enough to buy one
We see A, a typical "I'm a Mac" guy and B, a typical "I'm a PC" guy.
A: "Hi, I'm a Mac expert."
B: "And I'm a Mac user."
A: "Shouldn't you be the PC expert?"
B: "Yeah, but I just switched."
A: "Well... They couldn't have made this ad any more blatant, could they?"
Steve Jobs (offscreen): "Shut up!"
A and B stand around a few seconds in uncomfortable silence.
A looks at B from the side.
A (mumbling): "There goes the neighbourhood."
B: "What did you say?"
"Apple. It's not just for us painfully hip elitists anymore and boy, are we pissed about it."
The sad part is that this actually fits the tone of the "I'm a Mac" ads rather well...
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
505 comments and no one has once mentioned switching to AmigaOS. Shame on you all!!
TextEdit does plain text. It's right there in the menu: Format -> Make Plain Text. Duh.
"I tend to think of OS X as Linux with QA and Taste", James Gosling, creator of Java
I've never used a Mac, and I'm not terribly interested to, if iTunes is any indication of how working on a Mac is.
Seriously, Apple really needs to rework iTunes to make it as impressive as Mac users say Macs are.
It's Windows users only exposure to how Macs work, apart from the irritating Quick Time program.
He's wrong. The funny thing is...the only real nice things about Mac's are (1) very nice hardware (2) a couple of their bundled apps like iPhoto. The overall user experience is way over rated. I'm not a total Mac newbie. I owned several Mac's "back in the day" including a Mac SE with a whopping 4 MB of RAM, then a FX machine, and a Quadra 650. Then I started using Windows and didn't use Mac's except occasionally for several years and didn't buy any. Last summer I bought a Duo Core Intel iMac b/c I wanted something that would look nice in my kitchen nook. It looks great. But the OS is not what it's cracked up to be. Installing applications is...wierd... Unless you're experienced you end up with all of the foo.dmg files on your desktop... Thinking that you've installed the application you throw them into the trash. Wait a sec! The app doesnt' work anymore. Oh. I guess I should have known to drag that file into my applications folder. What would have thought? Safari is a piece of shit compared to Firefox or IE 7. Spotlight is nice but the new search in Windows Vista works at least as well if not better. The overall "polish" of the Mac UI is nice-ish but not really "better" than the Mac unless you're a designer weenie. The hardware is the only real compelling strength. Were it not for the nice hardware - one wire for power and two wires to connect and power and external hard drive - I'd get rid of it today. If a PC company would finally design a nice form factor Windows machine I'd buy it tomorrow. Bottom line: Mac's are over rated and mostly the fetish's of fanboys/fangirls who walk around wearing nothing but black, Doc Martins and...never mind. Time to shut up. If you're all about image, get a Mac.
In fact, it's closer to $29 than $139. With Windows Vista for $50, with Novell Linux for $29. I know what most people would choose.
Maybe you do, but I don't. I don't think it's an obvious choice at all. Most people don't even consider Linux as an option right now because it's not listed when they buy their Dell or HP; it's some sort of weirdo aftermarket geek hack, hardly a "legitimate" OS. If Dell priced out Windows, at whatever it actually costs, right next to Linux, I'd be happy. Even if it was "Windows Vista $50, Novell Linux $29," at least Linux would be there, next to Windows, as a valid option. That would go a very long way towards driving adoption -- even if people didn't buy it at first, they would probably at least see it there, and know that there is an alternative. It might take a few upgrade cycles, and a lot of good PR work, to get people to actually give it a shot, but having Linux as an option would plant the seed in people's minds that there is something besides Windows, and it is not just some integral part of the computer.
To be honest, I think Microsoft fears the erosion of that 'package deal' more than they fear any particular OS. From their perspective, alternate operating systems have come and gone; first there was OS/2, and BeOS, and even the Mac OS has been pushed into a corner. They have been able to do this, because people have come to assume that Windows is the computer. When you make the OS a choice -- when you let people know that yes, they are choosing to use Windows, instead of something else, you strike at the very heart of this assumption. From there, you have a "foot in the door" for any number of alternate OSes (although admittedly, the field is a little thin aside from Linux at the moment).
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
A true maximize button that doesn't only sometimes work, and an extra button or two on my laptop and I'll consider Macs to be a good choice. (As it is, I run Windows for the games or I run GNU/Linux so I guess I'm not the target consumer)
Property is theft.
I have a strong suspicion, judging from the increasing number of DOAs I've witnessed in the past few years, that the Big Name manufacturers (hardly 'manufacturers,' really they're just 'assemblers,' or better yet, 'name-stampers') do not do any real burn in testing anymore, besides making sure it POSTs.
Perhaps I'm just cynical. It seems like it would be possible, though, to write a utility that would conduct a burn-in of the machine, and then erase itself, if you wanted to. It would just need to load itself into RAM, go through its test cycle, and then at the conclusion of the cycle, wipe the HD and then power the system down. Or you could have a burn-in program that was run off of the USB port, or a CD. The cost of writing something like that would probably pay for itself in a few hundred units; you wouldn't even have to be Dell for something like that to make sense.
Just installing an OS and then letting the machine run idle for a few hours doesn't strike me as a particularly good test; for good QC you'd want heavy processor usage and disk I/O, in order to make sure that everything gets correctly stressed. That implies some sort of special software (which needs to be deleted afterwards); having an OS on the machine when it goes out to the customer doesn't really make this process that much easier.
There is a certain overhead involved in dealing with more than one OS, that's understandable: if you previously only had one type of HD that got stuck into all your boxes, adding another option obviously creates some complexity. However, I don't think this is a legitimate anti-Linux argument: Microsoft has rolled out more and more versions of its OS, and the manufacturers have seemingly accepted without complaint. Obviously there are systems in place that allow for Windows {Home|Professional|Media Center} to get installed, and while the cost of going from 1 option to 2 is great, adding one more option seems fairly trivial. (How many options does Vista have? Adding another for "blank drive" or "FreeDOS," if not Linux proper, can't be that hard. It's only when you factor in Microsoft's retaliatory measures that it gets expensive.)
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I love LAMP.
Core Duo, Min 512MB Ram, only need like 20GB of HD, don't need a CD drive optional, Gigabit Ethernet, decent onboard graphics
Is your reservation program a first-person shooter? That seems like some awfully excessive specs for a kiosk machine; particularly the GigE.
The Mini sort of sits in a class by itself, mostly IMO because it goes after a market that most of the SFF PC makers aren't interested in (or, are too inept to target correctly). Most of the mainboards I've seen that are the size of the Mini's are meant for embedded, portable, or automobile use, and don't touch it for features at the price. But then again, they don't have to; most of the Mini's features aren't necessary for embedded applications, and people building bespoke portable or automotive equipment aren't constrained by price.
When I think "reservation terminal," what comes first to my mind is something like a Wyse WinTerm; nothing near the specs of a Mini.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I think one main reason (like myself) has switched to Macs is the hardware. I mean were thing is compatible and the drivers work, period. Also, all mac laptops have the latest and greatest stuff--they're fast. Yes, OSX is fast and has some bling, but I mainly run SuSE 10.2 with XGL on my MacBookPro--the OS (Linux) is the best of both worlds for a power user bar none.
Steps to create plain text files in Mac OS X.
1 181About Document Formats
6 212Mac OS X: How to Set Up TextEdit as an HTML or Plain Text Editor
1. Go to the applications folder. Open TextEdit.
2. Go to "Format" in the Menu Bar. "Choose Make Plain Text".
If you want TextEdit to default to making plain text documents everytime you use TextEdit:
1. Go to TextEdit in the file menu, open "preferences".
2. In the new document field, click the "plain text" button. Close the window to save your new preference.
In addition, you can use text editor for the terminal.
1. Go to Applications folder. Go to Utilities. Open Terminal.
2. Type "nano" or "pico".
Some of these same instructions can be found by going to http://www.apple.com/support and in the search window typing in the words "plain text". I found several articles are listed there on how to save plain text documents, most dated over a year old, the time you were allegedly "searching" for how to do this, including
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=15
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=10
Please let me know what software application you ported to the Mac, so that I may avoid it. Come on man, you're programming and you can't figure this stuff out? Besides, if you copied the plain text file to the Mac, and double clicked on it to open it, it would open in TextEdit by default! Wow...
Ha. They don't even need adium. They can go out and get Microsoft Messenger for Mac http://www.microsoft.com/mac/default.aspx?pid=msn
He's a long-time Windows expert. This looks like a major career change. :-)
How about when people switch the other way?
Articles? It certainly happens.... Happened to me when I got tired of the confined
software/hardware choices. Anyone here of any bigtime "converts" getting a press blitz
for moving to Windows?
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
You stopped using Windows because they forced you to install a web browser?
Not exactly...:
Bundling a web browser was the right thing to do. While strong arming OEMs into not including Netscape was evil, including IE was completely justified.
I think the argument is, he stopped using Windows because they forced him to browse his local filesystem with the web browser.
(And all the atrocious hacks and spyware that engendered.)
Oh, please! Have you been looking around? Cables especially are something that almost every non-electronics store charges for as if they were made of solid gold. I'm sure Dell, IBM, etc. will charge you 5-10 times its worth as well. I can go into any random store in the inner city and find CAT-5 cables at prices that I can get a small drum of CAT-5 for in the right shops.
That's definitely not an Apple "feature".
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Windows had dominated the market while OSX was far superior. Now that Windows has (mostly) caught up, how can one even begin to think this market will change? It's not like Apple has lacked marketing power these past 7 years. The basic problem now is that, in the minds of consumers, Apple's "Why Windows?" message has now become "Well, why NOT Windows?"
I'm pretty sure Jobs does not embrace DRM.
IN australia, every city has 10s of chineese computer shops that sell anything and everything, especially PCs with nothing on them optionally.
www.istore.com.au
www.cworld.com.au
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
As someone who loves building PCs and so wont go near a Mac until there are equal possibilities I found this article amusing - Charlie Brooker (ex pczone games journalist + comedy writer) has an amusing mickey take- initially a tirade against Apple's switching campaign in the UK and why he hates Mac owners - below's a snippet from the article here:h tml
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,2005931,00.
"I hate Macs. I have always hated Macs. I hate people who use Macs. I even hate people who don't use Macs but sometimes wish they did. Macs are glorified Fisher-Price activity centres for adults; computers for scaredy cats too nervous to learn how proper computers work; computers for people who earnestly believe in feng shui."
1999... We have a new driver model, its the best in the world and its perfect, Embrace Win2000 NOW... then it takes years for people to write decent drivers.
.net because .net is soooo coool and fast.... oh it didnt work, was too slow used too much ram!! ah go back to MFC/C++ . .Net ? OR is it just a feature to kill Java and annoy sun.
2003... XP uses same model, drivers keep working
2006... VSTA changes to new model, oh sorry, yeah we got some new coders and they say the last drivers were crap, and written by coders who dont comment their code. We need something new, that uses DRM and needs billions of new man hours in redevelopment.
Oh and what happened to rewriting 90% of the interface/desktop in
If MS wont use it, why would the rest of the world. Again remind me, what MS application or OS component uses
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
I'm not sure that someone explaining in detail to the slashdot community that they are an incompetent programmer can even be defined as a troll. It's just kinda... sad.
.txt on a Mac
.txt for editing on a Mac.
Let's count the strikes:
1) can't use vi/emacs
2) can't figure out how to open a
3) couldn't find TextEdit (I mean, come on!)
4) didn't have xcode installed (and wants to make us believe that they're a programmer!)
5) didn't think to install any of the 50 squillion X11 open source editors available out there...
Good grief.
Even my computer illeterate partner is capable of opening a
In its favour OS X is a nice operating system, far more spartan and usable (at least to novies), and anything running over Unix can't be bad. But use it day to day? No way. I think I'd prefer Ubuntu over OS X if Windows disappeared tomorrow.
... everything after that gets easier and easier. yes, it was the same for me and that prostitute last night and she was worth every penny. thank you, thank you. i'm here all week.
Perhaps the fact that the default OS X emacs doesn't have a gui? So clicking isn't going to get you anywhere.
Not that the OP wasn't a clueless troll.
Since most pre-configured machines have some components I'm not happy with, I want to look at the part list and do some research anyway. As the most pertinent example, let me discuss graphics cards:
I found that most pre-configured computers have either
- Cards with active (fan) cooling. My experience with those is not so good, as the fans tend to be crap and the market for high quality replacement parts is limited.
- or passive cooled but low end&slow cards that don't meet my idea of reasonable gaming performance.
So I have to do the most time-consuming part of the part selection anyway - not much difference to assembling my own
C - the footgun of programming languages
...it's a bit light on specifics. "Powerful"? If you mean CPU-power, then an Intel Core2Duo running OS X is pretty much the same as running Windows. It's then all about the applications available...
"Also, all mac laptops have the latest and greatest stuff"
Um, like 7200rpm drives as standard? Nope. Like Core2Duo before the cheap Wintel Laptops? No. Like cheap, powerful graphics cards? No. They make great hardware, but you can't pretend it's cheap or cutting edge in terms of components.
No wrong
even when Apple was relatively larger than nowadays (say late eighties), the quality of the OS api's was already incredibly better than that of Windows. I know, I programmed them both for money.
When in Dos/Windows you had to play with hand written vga drivers, and obscure undocumented bios calls, and were trying to work around the insane memory model if you had more than 64k of data, the Mac (OS 7) api was already 32 bits. In windows everything was passed around as a (void *) although they called it HANDLE. In Mac's, everything was typesafe pretty much from the start. You don't think Mac's had a year 2000 bug in the operating system do you?
Ofcourse Apple is a company aiming to make money, but there is a sense of quality in that company that is completely absent in the Microsoft universe.
Bart
You've actually heard someone say that OSX is a waste of money compared to windows, and then proceed to dump the mac for that reason?
Gotta love the Slashdot moderation system sometimes. Hopefully the above Anonymous Coward post was informative to its parent's author :-)
Follow me
You know, I was hoping for boxes from Apple to fit those holes, but the Apple TV and some other offerings show me what Apple intends there.
So I suppose I'll probably buy a Soekris and install openBSD on it to do what I might have wanted the $400 Mac Mini to do. Wish I ccould find a decent PPC mobo in the price range.
I read "Windows Expert Jumps Sheep" and I thought WTF these guys smoked?
"Does anybody want to play the "I took a mac and configured a dell to the same specs" game? Configure a mac to match the medions specs and see why for a lot of people macs are so overpriced it just doesnt make any sense."
There are more to computers than mere specs. To use a car-analogy: I could get a BMW for 40.000e (or more). Or I could get a Lada for 12.000e. They both have engine, four wheels, room for 4 adults, room for cargo, stereos, headlights anbd they can take you just fine from point A to point B. Does that mean that the BMW is overpriced, since you can get a Lada so cheaply? I mean, both of them do the exact same thing, right?
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
There a many comments here claiming Apple computers are expensive relative to PCs. A typical one is: "I still can't see how you can claim that Macs are cheaper than PCs!" May I help? A computer cost over a year has three main components (ignoring finance): Lost interest on capital Depreciation Upgrade costs Let us work them out. You bought your $800 PC last year and were content that you didn't need the higher spec of the iMac. Now Vista is out and you need to upgrade the graphics. What did it cost you? PC depreciation here in the UK is about 30% per year. That of Macs is around 15%... my 5 year old iMac 800G4 is still selling on eBay for £380... I paid £750... that's only 10% depreciation/year. The PC: Lost interest: $32 Depreciation: $240 Upgrade: $150 (typical 256MB card) Vista upgrade: $160 (Home premium is what most people need) So you have a hardware total of $422. If you include the Vista upgrade you hit $582. That is provided you got an XP install CD with your cheap PC. What people who got one of those secure partition restore options on the HDD do I have no idea. Anyway: $422 or $582. So what does the Mac cost you? Before I start let me explain that I am trying to save you money. An experienced PC buyer will know a few ruses to save money there. With regard to Macs, this is how you do it. The refurbished store is an option. You get a full 1 year warrantee but no special deals, education discount or the original box. I find that the original box helps sell it when you need to. Anyway, the refurbished store will offer you anything from 15% to 35% discount. The 15% discount isn't worth it because the higher education discount is 12%. Anyone who knows anyone in University can get that... just buy in their name... the warranty is transferable. It is often the case if you buy from the refurbished store with a 30% discount your Mac at the end of the year will sell for what you paid for it. Yes I did say that. I have done that twice with iBooks. Cost to upgrade? Just the lost interest in the bank: $40 on a $999 MacBook But I like the original box. So sometimes I buy in the Fall/Autumn.... when the iPod offer is on. I buy with the 12% higher education discount and I eBay the iPod. I get £65 for it. A month before the warrantee expires I sell it on eBay. It sells for about 17% less than the purchase price. Here are some figures in UK pounds as I know these to be correct: MacBook 2.0GHz £879 - with Higher Ed discount £755 minus the money back from the sold iPod £690 Value at end of year £720 Lost interest from the Bank: £30 Cost to you to upgrade? £0. So, who has the blind spot? Apple or the geeks who keep claiming that Macs cost more than PCs? These are the real figures I have paid over the last 7 years. Before the iPods there were printer deals. Before eBay I sold things in London through Loot.com I don't just upgrade the graphics for $422 or the OS for another $159, I get new iLife apps, the latest OS, entirely new hardware and an full 1 year warranty on some pretty smart hardware... and I get it for nothing more than the effort of selling a Mac and an iPod. Here in London, through Loot that has never taken more than a single free ad. As for upgrading the HDD I use a Wiebetech firewire dock. You can buy a USB 2 to IDE/SATA cable from NewerTech for $25... cheaper still on eBay. Now perhaps it's me that has the blind-spot, so could one of those people who keeps complaining that Macs are expensive please explain why I should think the PC a good deal?
There a many comments here claiming Apple computers are expensive relative to PCs. A typical one is:
"I still can't see how you can claim that Macs are cheaper than PCs!"
May I help?
A computer cost over a year has three main components (ignoring finance):
Lost interest on capital
Depreciation
Upgrade costs
Let us work them out. You bought your $800 PC last year and were content that you didn't need the higher spec of the iMac. Now Vista is out and you need to upgrade the graphics. What did it cost you?
PC depreciation here in the UK is about 30% per year. That of Macs is around 15%... my 5 year old iMac 800G4 is still selling on eBay for £380... I paid £750... that's only 10% depreciation/year.
The PC:
Lost interest: $32
Depreciation: $240
Upgrade: $150 (typical 256MB card)
Vista upgrade: $160 (Home premium is what most people need)
So you have a hardware total of $422. If you include the Vista upgrade you hit $582. That is provided you got an XP install CD with your cheap PC. What people who got one of those secure partition restore options on the HDD do I have no idea. Anyway: $422 or $582.
So what does the Mac cost you? Before I start let me explain that I am trying to save you money. An experienced PC buyer will know a few ruses to save money there. With regard to Macs, this is how you do it.
The refurbished store is an option. You get a full 1 year warrantee but no special deals, education discount or the original box. I find that the original box helps sell it when you need to. Anyway, the refurbished store will offer you anything from 15% to 35% discount. A 15% refurbished discount isn't worth it because the higher education discount is 12%. Anyone who knows anyone in University can get that... just buy in their name... the warranty is transferable.
It is often the case if you buy from the refurbished store with anything over a 20% discount your Mac at the end of the year will sell for what you paid for it. Yes I did say that. I have done that twice with iBooks.
Cost to upgrade? Just the lost interest in the bank: $40 on a $999 MacBook
But I like the original box. So sometimes I buy in the Fall/Autumn.... when the free iPod offer is on. I buy with the 12% higher education discount and I eBay the iPod. I get £65 for it. A year later, a month before the warrantee expires on my Mac (MacBook or iMac) I sell it on eBay. It sells for about 17% less than the purchase price. Here are some figures in UK pounds as I know these to be correct:
MacBook 2.0GHz £879 - with Higher Ed discount £755 minus the money back from the sold iPod £690
Value at end of year £720
Lost interest from the Bank: £30
Cost to you to upgrade? £0!
So, who has the blind spot? Apple or the geeks who keep claiming that Macs cost more than PCs? These are the real figures I have paid over the last 7 years. Before the iPods there were printer deals. Before eBay I sold things in London through Loot.com
I don't just upgrade the graphics for $422 or the OS for another $159, I get new iLife apps, the latest OS, entirely new hardware and an full 1 year warranty on some pretty smart hardware... and I get it for nothing more than the effort of selling a Mac and an iPod. Here in London, through Loot that has never taken more than a single free ad. As for upgrading the HDD I use a Wiebetech firewire dock. You can buy a USB 2 to IDE/SATA cable from NewerTech for $25... cheaper still on eBay.
Now perhaps it's me that has the blind-spot, so could one of those people who keeps complaining that Macs are expensive please explain why I should think the PC a good deal?
It'll be a cold day in hell before Jobs allows Dell to sell Macs, after Dell's public advice to Apple...
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
It's a fucking Suzuki Swift ! Fuck your "Erector sets", "Sega Genesis" and "Geo Metros", they are fucking Meccanos, Sega Megadrives and Suzuki Swifts.
We use our "terminals" for a lot. We're not talking about green screen airline reservations. Plus they're great to have as general purpose machines- we run a copy or our website, we run our timeclock on them and on a slow day you might catch someone playing games on their lunch. We expect to use them for about 6 years during which they will have paid for themselves several times over. Who knows they might last much longer if our computing demands don't rise.
That being said I'm sure our software is bloated and inefficient (not to mention it's windows only)- but I'm not willing to write something better so I'm not complaining.
You might like to read the comment: "Apple or Geek Blind-Spot", currently the last comment, to understand why you are wrong.
You might like to read the comment "Apple or Geek Blind-Spot" to understand why you are wrong about upgrading Macs. It is FAR cheaper than a PC.
The comment is at towards the end of this discussion.
Part of your comment reflects my experience with switchers. Many of them want to keep doing things the hard way. Installing an application by drag and drop just doesn't feel right when you have spent your computing life running installer programs. (Ditto for uninstalling, "I can just drag it to the trash!?!?! Are you crazy? What about the registry?")
Network settings, burning files to CD, and the list goes on. Between that and learning new keyboard shortcuts, most people have to learn new habits--usually a simpler way of doing things--but then they are hooked. The same appears to be true of the guy who wrote this article.
Boom Shanka
My parents recently bought a Mac Mini and loved it so much my Mom bought a MacBook. She had a problem with ripping a CD and, even though she's admittedly computer illiterate, she figured it out herself and was very proud. She said "If it had been a Dell, it would have been in the garbage." She's been telling all of her friends about it and they're all looking into getting a Mac.
My dad went out and bought a new printer at an after-Christmas sale. He was able to hook it up and get it working without calling me once. He was very impressed, and every time I'm over there he says how he should have switched a long, long time ago.
Now they've subscribed to Podcasts and are ripping their extensive CD collection to their respective computers so that they can play them over the stereo using the Airport Express I bought them for Chrismas.
I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
UVA has been doing a technology survey of incoming freshman since 1997 and this year's numbers are startling. The use of Macs is up to almost 20% of freshman according to this http://www.itc.virginia.edu/stuserv/ca/cainventory /compare/ survey.
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And Princeton's school newspaper has reported that 45% of all computers sold on campus this year are Macs. http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/10
How do you know that? Do you nmap ever single machine to try to determine the host OS? That's not reliable, so you must make contact with the admin of each machine that spams you, and verify that they are all, indeed, windows.
Are you saying that it's un-possible for some guy to install sendmail on his mac and fuck up and turn it into an open relay?
Truth is I played a little bit of the hax0r game a while back, mostly looking for public ftp in my warez days, but I'd stumble across open relays. A lot (you'd be surprised) of the ftp site's I'd find, that allowed anonymous write access, were proftpd's running on linux, and merely misconfigured. I'd find the odd mac, solaris, BSD, all kinds of crazy stuff. Of course, the majority were NT4.0 boxes, which allowed anony write access by default, but a lazy admin or user can make ANY computer insecure.
If Mac was 25% marketshare, people would write trojans for it. There's no architecture immune to "moron user clicking OK when he shouldnt"
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
From my experience, mac hardware is a proprietary piece of shit. My girlfriend had a 1.5 year old ibook G4. Her hard drive was failing so I figured, "just back up what you need on your ipod and I'll replace the hard drive and install OSX again." I thought it would be a few screws off the bottom panel (like 95% of other laptops), unplugging of the hard drive and plugging in of a new one. But holy shit, after looking at directions online, you have to take apart the entire goddamn chasis just to get at the hard drive. (http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Mac/iBook-G4-12-Inch/ Hard-Drive-Replacement)
We took it to Fry's and had them do it for $150. It took a week because their regular techs wouldn't touch the ibook and we had to wait for their "Apple Specialist" to come in (which he only did once a week). I sold the goddamn thing on ebay after it was fixed and built her a windows box with a 19" widescreen monitor with the money.
This is why Macbooks only come with a 3 month warranty. They know the lifespan of an average component is 1 year. Go figure that Consumer Reports doesn't recommend extended warranty for any laptop except an apple one.
Have you even used Linux? Let alone Ubuntu recently? I have worse driver problems with Windows XP than Ubuntu. Even my sound card, the old standard of Linux incompatibility, just works out of the box with Ubuntu. I need to go through a half-hour of searching and installing for WinXP.
I [may] disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
You've actually heard someone say that OSX is a waste of money compared to windows, and then proceed to dump the mac for that reason?
OS X is considerably cheaper than Windows Vista in the EU (don't know about the US), and it does more.
Actually, don't knock it until you've seen what's out there. While you might have to find alternatives to software (a problem of choice), solutions exist.
On the driver note, my current system requires more driver installs for Windows XP than for Ubuntu, which amazes me.
I [may] disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
OTOH, you could get a Honda or a Toyota for a lot less and end up with a BETTER and MORE reliable car.
Comparisons such as yours only work if you've got a nice false strawman to knock down.
They quickly become absurd in a well populated marketplace.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
In my experience, Ubuntu has MUCH better device/driver support than Windows out of the box, and it is easier to add programs using the built in package manager. Using Easy Ubuntu gets all the proprietary stuff up and running as well. I agree that with research and trial-and-error, one could find programs that work SORT OF like the iLife suite - but none of them are as tightly integrated, feature complete, or professionally supported, and again - the Mac does all of this out of the box.
I have seen what's out there - like I said, I love linux. But then again, I'm much more tech-minded than most of the people in my family/circle of friends, and most of them don't have the time or inclination to work all these little details out. Plus, you can sit a 6 year old in front of GarageBand and they can make their own music tracks right away without much of a learning curve. None of the linux offerings are that user friendly - music pros may know what to do and how to work it, but novices are still out in the cold, and those are the users that Linux is trying to target, n'est pas?
I [may] disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Um, no. Try $5000+ a for HIGH END PC. Do your homework before you make such ridiculous statements. Not only are you right, but even in this space Macs are competitive.
$5045 buys you a Mac Pro with 4 3 GHz Xeon cores (2x dual core), 4 GB of RAM, a 750 GB SATA hard disk, an ATI Radeon X1900 512M (2x dual-link DVI) video card, a 16x DVD+/-RW (DL) optical drive.
Just fooling around on Dell's site for a few minutes I wound up with a price for an XPS 710 H2C with a quad core 3.2 GHz ("Factory overclocked." I am not kidding.), 4 GB RAM, 500GB RAID 1 (2x 500 GB drives), a similar optical drive (though they also throw in an extra DVD-ROM optical drive) and an NVidia GeForce 8800 GTX with 768M running Windows XP Pro for $5224. It's pretty close. Replace the Mac Pro's single 750 GB drive with 2x 500GB and the price is $5244.
Consider the Findings of Fact in the case, and see in particular Section H, Paragraphs 62 through 67.
The point concerning Intel is a red herring Courts typically don't recognize the "Sure I'm guilty but look over there! He's even more guilty than me!" defense.
I do agree that courts seem to be poorly equipped to deal with complicated technical issues and other elements of this case were absurd. That really doesn't undermine the relevant point, which wooshed past again. The acceptance by courts of suspect science like bite-mark analysis and their over-reliance on eyewitness testimony support your assertion that it's best if one minimizes interaction with courts.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
"OTOH, you could get a Honda or a Toyota for a lot less and end up with a BETTER and MORE reliable car."
Better in what way? Cheaper interior, less precise steering, lower quality materials, crappier suspension etc. etc. You actually do get something for the extra money BMW (or Audi) costs. Yes, Toyota is propably more reliable, but that's about it. There's more to the "goodness" of a car than reliability.
If you really think Toyota or Honda is a "better car" than BMW, then I can't help but feel that you are deluding yourself.
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
Very easily - those viruses are not Mac compatitible.
One other thing with the reply that has little to do with what I wrote earlier - a machine that allows anon ftp is not necessessarily out of the control of the operator, which also holds for open mail relay - they just need to fix their config to solve their problems. By compromised I mean controlled by somebody that has broken into it, by spyware that controls it or by a virus. The first holds for pretty well any system, but the virus and spyware problems are a Microsoft platform problem. As for the marketshare thing - I think that is less of an issue than the ease of breaking these things - as the IIS vs apache examples show. It would be much harder to write a virus for any plaform other than the Microsoft ones and since these losers have to start somewhere they won't find any code examples to adapt and call it theirs for anything but the Microsoft platforms. Things may change - perhaps enough machines will actually get antivirus software and maybe Vista or it's successor will address the problem - but for now we live in a situation that would be considered bad SF of millions of compromised systems on the net under the control of petty criminals.
Thanks, that's what I couldn't figure out. I wasn't editing an existing file; I was creating one from scratch, and it seemed to only allow me to save it in a rich text format.
If you can read this sig, you're too close.
First of all, smartass--can I call you smartass?--I don't give a flying fuck what it's called, I have never found any use for any variant of EMACS. Second, if you weren't such a knee-jerk, Steve Jobs loving Apple fanbois, you might stop to realize that if you create a text file in TextEdit (which was the first thing I tried) it will not let you save it in plain text. In MS Word and Wordpad, it always allows you to save plain text files after warning you that you will lose all formatting, of course. I was in a huge hurry, and I hadn't discovered the well-hidden option that lets you convert to plain text. Naturally, I assumed that the editor was incapable of saving plain text, so I searched apple.com's developer site for "plain text editor" and came up with nothing (go to developer.apple.com and try it for yourself if you don't believe me).
I'd like to stress that this was my first time using a Mac in about ten years, and my first time ever using one for development. I was actually running Panther inside PearPC on a Windows machine, so it was very slow and prone to crashing. This was spare-time, contract work, and all I wanted to do was get in, get the port compiled, and get out (so creating my own text editor from scratch was obviously out of the question). It was written to be cross-platform from the beginning, using FLTK for the GUI, so it should have taken a couple hours at most. However it ended up taking several days to get all the libraries I needed to compile. I'd say that's still pretty good for someone who's never touched a modern Mac before. But that TextEdit thing left a bad taste in my mouth.
If you can read this sig, you're too close.
If you can read this sig, you're too close.
Places -> Connect to server
Add an FTP connection, it'll appear on the desktop as a volume (and in Network Servers), treat it like any other folder. Bookmark it like any other location to remember the settings.
Deleted
Sorry, my computer signed me out somewhere between starting the comment and submitting it. Also, In re-reading, 'Henkel' should be "Henckels"--how embarrassing. At any rate, if you reply, please reply to this so I get emailed.
If you can read this sig, you're too close.
And the price of the Audigy card + Premiere + Encore + Nero?
... he told them Hasta La Vista
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Well I've had abysmal experiences with both Apple and Nikon in their customer service/repair. Before you jump to the conclusion, I do not misuse their products at all and I'm very careful with anything expensive I purchase.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer