Woman Claims Ubuntu Kept Her From Online Classes

stonedcat writes "A Wisconsin woman has claimed that Dell computers and Ubuntu have kept her from going back to school via online classes. She says she has called Dell to request Windows instead however was talked out of it. Her current claim is that she was unaware that she couldn't install her Verizon online disk to access the Internet, nor could she use Microsoft Word to type up her papers."

Comments

Expected

[Lulfas]

This is the sort of thing that is going to happen when you give a normal person *nix. Sadly, in this case, Windows "just works."

Re:Expected

[samtihen]

Well, I was going to go into a tirade about how stupid the girl is, but the reality is that she called to explain the mixup and Dell somehow convinced her to keep Ubuntu. Dell, if someone calls and says they got a Ubuntu computer by mistake, just have them ship it back. It isn't worth it.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the sort of thing that is going to happen when you give a normal person *nix. Sadly, in this case, Windows "just works."

Considering the Verizon software is probably for a 3G-Wireless usb card, yes I could see windows exclusivly, although WINE may have been able to accomplish it ( never tried ) As for Word? ROFL! Wine+MSOffice, or OpenOffice... next

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[fooby12]

That's true, and anyone who has ever passed on a Linux distribution to a friend or family member would know the importance of leaving behind a system that does just work. To me this just looks like someone trying to pass blame. I guess she feels swindled, when in fact she was simply sold something different.

Re:Expected

[Maxo-Texas]

I agree-- however part of the reason that it "just works" is because the vendors assume windows will be on every machine.

It's the same reason people have less problems with console games than they do with PC games.

I think the days of assuming windows is on every machine are ending and linux is reaching critical mass.

With the economy the way it is, governments and businesses are looking very hard at software costs.

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[Ravalox]

I have to agree, reading this can be frustrating to a seasoned posix user but the truth is linux just isn't that simplified iPod solution that appeals to the vast majority of consumers. I use Ubuntu almost exclusively and thrive in a linux environment but my girlfriend doesn't want to use my computer. It's not that she isn't smart, it's that she sees it as this obtuse, obnoxious affront to the status quo. We know it's not, but that's an example of one of several perceptual barriers Linux is going to have to vault over.

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[sucker_muts]

Part of the problem is that she did not understand it's possible to configure internet access without that Verizon cdrom, and she could easily work with OpenOffice instead of Word. Verizon even offered to send a technician to help with the connection, and the school said it has no problems with people using different software when following their couses.

Too bad the woman did not look for answers but simply blamed Dell instead out of ignorance. :(

Re:Expected

[Lulfas]

But there is no reason for a normal person to find some ad-hoc work around to the software not working on an OS they have no special love for. Most people don't care what OS they have, and they aren't going to bend over backwards like you often have to do in a *nix system to run what everyone expects you to be able to run. In most people's minds, Office = MS. They aren't going to go looking for random alternatives just because they are out there. That isn't the way people work. The only reason to ever look for an alternative is when it DOESN'T work.

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[Anonymous Coward]

I attended the same school as this chick, and 90% of my syllabuses said that works *must* be submitted in Microsoft Word format. It is a technical college, preparing people for real jobs where Microsoft products are extremely relevant. In the real world, people can't afford to be technical non-conformists.

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[thtrgremlin]

is ndiswrapper too much to expect of anyone to use, even the easy as hell to use gui for wireless because it isn't installed by default?

I am sure this must have been University of Phoenix, they are really behind in the times. They really caught a trend decades ago, but they have done nothing technology-wise to keep up to date.

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[capnkr]

No, this is the sort of thing which makes "Idiocracy" seem to be an insightful and predictive documentary...

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[colmore]

"Critical Mass" of what? Gear heads who are willing to read manuals and tinker with things until they work?

Sure. But there's a lot of the population who don't and never will have that relationship with their computers. And a lot of these people use their machines for more than just the mythical "web and email."

If someone knows Windows well enough, there simply isn't a non-partisan reason to make the switch. It's too much effort.

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[Cajun Hell]

in this case, Windows "just works."

Yep, downloads and executes (or autoloads from freshly inserted disk) and installs malware without all that pesky save-as, chmod +x crap.

C'mon, the article explicitly says she wants internet access. You've got to be insane to give Windows to a "normal person" if you know they're going to be connected to the internet, precisely because of the "dangerous stuff 'just works'" problem. These three things just don't go together: 1) Windows 2) networks 3) computer novices. Change any 1 and you can have a working system, but all 3 together are lethal.

Her Verizon High-Speed Internet CD won't load, so she can't access the internet.

Ubuntu can't network out-of-the-box, and needs a Verizon CD? Whoa!

She also can't install Microsoft Word, which she says is a requirement for MATC's online classes. .. MATC also says it promises to accept any of Schubert's papers or class documents using whatever software she has installed.

Sounds like somebody doesn't have their story straight. FUD should be consistent within an article if you want people to believe it.

Re:Expected

[PalmKiller]

Verizon is one issue here, their tech support can and should support her connecting via any os, she should be suing them if anyone. Open office would suffice for the papers, someone should just help her out. Hey, did she try the geek squad (/me ducks). But really, pay a lawyer to sue people when she could just use the money to pay for someone to support her, shes just in it for the money, or she is incredibly lost. Thats the american way though, throw a bunch of money at a lawyer, rather than look for a solution to the problem.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the sort of thing that is going to happen when you give a normal person *nix. Sadly, in this case, Windows "just works."

Considering the Verizon software is probably for a 3G-Wireless usb card, yes I could see windows exclusivly, although WINE may have been able to accomplish it ( never tried ) As for Word? ROFL! Wine+MSOffice, or OpenOffice... next

Considering that my 3g connection is detected by the network manager by default, i'm surprised there is any conversation about this at all.

maybe we just can't expect everyone to finish college, some people are just not bright. serioulsy, do you want this person to be a doctor or manage your finances if she can't be bothered to click on the "network" icon in the top right corner of the screen? what kind of problem solving skills does she have.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Believe it or not, our linux enthusiasts here are as enthusiastic as many slashdot posters.

That she needs and deserves Windows probably escaped the rep...

Re:Expected

[mewshi_nya]

Unlucky you :P

After my girlfriend's computer died, she inherited Kenny (my first home-built machine, circa 2005). Installed Sabayon on there, then after a few kernel upgrades and such, it started having issues. Installed Ubuntu, works beautifully, other than, you know, Dolphin freezing.

She loves it, partly because it's new, and interesting, but also because it's free. You should have seen the look on her face when I told her how much a retail copy of Windows costs.

She's mine, you can't have her, by the way.

Re:Expected

[PalmKiller]

My bad, I guess I should have RTFA. :) At any rate its good that verizon is gonna get her online, and open office should do her just fine...unless hey online classes require internet explorer (which tends to be the case).

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[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing to do with the OS. This person would have the same class of problems if she were given a Mac.

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[mewshi_nya]

You can still submit things in Doc using OO.o. Or do you never bother to check these things? And, frankly, I would rather have someone who knows how to think, "What would this be called on this system?" than "Here's what it's called on this old system. OH SHIT! I CAN'T FIND IT ON THE NEW ONE! HELP!!"

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[Directrix1]

Windows requires just as much tinkering as Linux, just in different ways.

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[trolltalk.com]

I attended the same school as this chick, and 90% of my syllabuses said that works *must* be submitted in Microsoft Word format. It is a technical college, preparing people for real jobs where Microsoft products are extremely relevant. In the real world, people can't afford to be technical non-conformists.

Another lying Micro$hill who avoids the obvious. OOo can read and save in .doc format.

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[mark72005]

Don't they include OpenOffice with these?

If the Dell support rep could have just given her two or three helpful tips, she could have probably been fine. OpenOffice is a perfect replacement for Word. I don't know about her Verizon situation, but I'm sure there is a workaround for that.

The problem is, as I've been flamed for before, Linux is still nowhere near the point where a non-techie will consider adopting it. Although it's much better than it was even a few years ago, it's still not an idiot-friendly OS where things 'just work', compared to what people are used to.

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[hattig]

The shame is that the education should be concentrating on how to achieve results via theory, not on a specific tool. Teaching, not Training.

You then apply the theory to the tool you are using, rather than know you have to hit the icon that looks like paper with a + on it, and a squiggle, on the third toolbar.

This is doubly more relevant because of Office 2007 which screwed up the user interface big time.

So what if the document is submitted in OpenOffice Word format? What matters is that the person applied the tool features correctly. If it isn't a course related to using office software, then it matters even less.

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[Anonymous Coward]

I see you never tried *nix... And Ubuntu of all things...

You should learn that normal != idiot.

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[danbert8]

If they had half a brain they would require them to be submitted as PDFs, but regardless, Open Office can save to a word format. Also, if they did require PDFs, open office supports that out of the box, with Word, you'd need another program to do that.

Re:Expected

[mark72005]

There's no way you can expect an average user to figure out how to compile drivers or even use wine to make this work.

It's her fault partially for not asking the right questions beforehand, but it's Dell's fault for not making sure she understood what she was getting and not supporting her after the fact.

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[thtrgremlin]

I thought people would be turned off to using my computer because I run only Ubuntu, but I actually had the opposite happen. Most of my friends all loved it and wanted to give it a try on heir own machines. Man, fixing problems on Ubuntu is so much easier at least in the respect that you can know if something in particular is the cause of the problem, and it is quick and easy to see if a particular solution is going to resolve the problem. Not to mention SSH means never having to leave your own computer (unless it is an Internet connectivity issue, obviously :)

So Ubuntu didn't keep them away, so I switched my keyboard to Colemak (a DvorÃk variant for those used to qwerty). Yeah, for some reason nobody wants to use my computer anymore :) except my wife of course. She gave it a shot and discovered it improved her typing speed significantly within a few days. Better than me cause I still use qwerty at work :(

but when guests drop by and are like "can I check my email", they sit down for a sec wit the keyboard, and are like "never mind, I'll check it when I get home". Muah ha ha haha ha!

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[TheLinuxSRC]

She's mine, you can't have her, by the way.

Kenny is a girl?

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[Lumpy]

People believe what the companies tell them. Verizon claim you MUST use their software to enable internet. you do not, but they want their spyware and "guides" and branding all over your computer.

you can call them, say "my new DSL modem is not working, please enable it for me." and they will do that just for you.

Again, computers are complex and hard, Expecting the normal person to understand them or even be able to configure them is silly.

This lady needed windows, then she could complain and write an article about how windows keeps her from going back to school.

he problems would be no different, just the target of her complaints.

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[NeilTheStupidHead]

she sees it as this obtuse, obnoxious affront to the status quo

So how did Apple increase its market share so much?

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[TheSovereign]

I don't agree. Literally anyone who had even a slight clue about her predicament would have been able to load windows on the system. contrary to the article this doesn't void your dell guarantee. This person chose to leave school instead of getting her problem fixed, which, in my opinion is simply an excuse for her mental shortcomings, then again if she were intelligent in the least she could have gotten her internet connection to work in the first place.

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[Rah'Dick]

No, this happens when you give someone *nix and don't teach them about the differences and alternatives in user software. Getting hardware and drivers working is an issue best transferred to the next "PC guy".

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[lanswitch]

. I don't know ... but I'm sure ...

  are you sure that you don't know, or don't you know if you are sure?

Re:Expected

[Oligonicella]

"I guess she feels swindled, when in fact she was simply sold something different."

That's called bait and switch, and it's a swindle.

Re:Expected

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Most, if not all, 3G wireless cards work fine in Linux. The CD in question is almost definitely the "install CD" they hand out with DSL packages. Contains RNDIS drivers for using the DSL modem as a USB device, and some stupid little wizard that wraps the configuration that you could just do with a web browser and basic knowledge of IP addresses.

Utterly irrelevant to actually using the service; but Verizon doesn't go out of their way to tell you that, and she sounds like a n00b.

Re:Expected

[Nebu]

maybe we just can't expect everyone to finish college, some people are just not bright. serioulsy, do you want this person to be a doctor or manage your finances if she can't be bothered to click on the "network" icon in the top right corner of the screen? what kind of problem solving skills does she have.

IMHO, knowing enough about computers to set up a network (even with OS guidance) is not strongly correlated with medical or financial advisory skills.

For all I care, the doctor/financial advisor can be a luddite, using pen and paper for all his/her records, as long as they do the job well.

Re:Expected

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I just wonder how she ended up ordering an Ubuntu box. Dell doesn't store them at the bottom of the filing cabinet in the disused room marked "beware of the leopard" anymore; but I've never once been led astray, or even seen a link that might lead me astray, on Dell's ordering pages.

Re:Expected

[aliquis]

Obviously you was moderated flamebait because the people with mod points are retards (here I go to join you! :D)

But yes, while one could argue she should know that she wanted Windows or just go out and buy it I do understand how she ran into troubles.

The good thing is that the more people has problem with the software requirements the bigger the chance they get more reasonable.

I've didn't knew people bought Linux machines by accident though, except netbooks. Maybe one should make it really clear they come with Linux, not Windows, and won't run normal Windows apps unless one install Windows instead.

Re:Expected

[SBrach]

What's the replacement for VZAccess?

Re:Expected

[cashman73]

I attended the same school as this chick, and 90% of my syllabuses said that works *must* be submitted in Microsoft Word format.

And how much do you want to bet that the school complains about students constantly submitting things in .docx format and not being able to read it, because, "it's not the MS Word DOCs I've seen before"?

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[talz13]

So that's when you use the drop down and save as "Microsoft Word 97/2000/XP (.doc)"

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[MightyYar]

Verizon claim you MUST use their software to enable internet

That's simply not true. I have Verizon. When you call, the first thing the auto phone system asks you is whether you run Mac, Windows, or "other". The install card even came with Mac instructions, which tell you to ignore the disk. I've actually had very good tech support through Verizon... my main complaint would have to be wait time.

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[Anonymous Coward]

That's how Apple increased their market share.

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[agrounds]

My wife is taking an online teacher certification course right now. She uses a Mac as her primary computer. The online coursework is completely unaccessible without Internet Explorer. We've tried Safari, Chrome, and of course Firefox to no avail. You have to have IE. All coursework must be submitted as Excel or Word. This is non-negotiable. We know this because we tried since she uses OpenOffice normally.

No, saving as an MS Office document does NOT preserve OOo's document formatting like it should.

Consequently, she has to use my gaming Windows machine for her school work.
The reality of it all is that for some things you truly do need Windows because that is what the company you are working with expect. Calling and whining to the company that runs the online certification program does absolutely nothing, and all students are expected to comply with this because that is how the program works.

We can blame the woman in this story for not pulling out the man pages, searching google extensively, working things on command-line, etc... or we can accept that normal, average people should not have to do these things for a mature operating system. They expect things to work. She is not wrong for this.

Re:Expected

[ozbon]

No - but it sounds like they killed Kenny. The bastards.

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[pandrijeczko]

There's a lesson to be learned here - don't try and use Linux just because you think it's fashionable.

Even better, if you you're a newbie thinking about migrating from Windows to Linux in the future then maybe do it in small stages and start by installing and running as many of the common Linux-associated Open Source apps on Windows first - OpenOffice, The Gimp, etc.

Sure, there's nothing stopping someone with technical interest and some spare time for the learning curve to dual boot Linux with their existing Windows installation but, speaking as a Linux geek, the only other reason you should migrate from Windows to Linux as an inexperienced user is because you're determined to save some money & have high moral standards about not running pirated software. Otherwise stick with Windows.

And, yes, Linux is far less prone to virii & trojans than Windows is but that doesn't mean Linux is automatically more secure - run any PC without at least a NAT router (and/or a firewall) and you're probably going to leave an exploitable service running on the Internet. If anything, this is less likely from a default Windows XP perspective because the chances are you're installing SP2 minimum, in which case the Windows Firewall is at least giving some protection. On a Linux installation, you need to carefully choose stuff to install from the outset to be fairly secure as soon as the PC boots up. That's why a NAT router & immediate/regular software updates is the minimum home security anyone should apply.

However, in the real life case of my sister & her husband, they far prefer Ubuntu to Windows now on the basis that they can call me whenever with any questions. With two teenagers in the house sharing their own Windows PC, mum & dad's Windows PC kept getting killed with virii & trojans when one of the kids borrowed it because the other kid was using the other PC. Since the adults only do email, a bit of word processing, surfing the Internet & watching/listening to a bit of multimedia, I stuck Ubuntu on their PC & they now have a trouble-free PC. Sure, they leave me all the command line work but I can easily help them out remotely using an SSH session.

So don't get caught in the stupid "anti-Microsoft" fad - use it because you think there's a need to, otherwise stick with what you're happy with...

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

FTFA:

Schubert says she ordered her laptop online at Dell.com expecting to buy your classic bread-and-butter computer.

She didn't realize until the next morning her laptop defaulted to the Ubuntu operating system.

"It's been a mess," she said. "I regret ordering the computer."

She's isn't stupid at all, obviously the night during which she accidentally ordered a laptop was very messy.

Seriously now, she dropped out of two semesters because she couldn't get a Verizon Internet CD for Windows to load and because she didn't have MS Word? She didn't even call the school, the support staff would certainly have been able to help.

Agreed about how that Dell rep looks a bit shady, but looking at the article again (and the refreshingly good comments at that WKOW site) I'm not sure I can trust that reporter's account of what exactly happened there. Well, I guess it's fair to say that the Dell rep should have tried to actually fix her specific problem or point her to the obvious source of help (her school).

And Lulfas, next week they'll run the same story but featuring Vista in place of Ubuntu. ;) (Not trolling here, the new UI is very far from "just works" unless you have received training. Let's remember to distinguish between flavors of Windows, shall we?)

Re:Expected

[msuarezalvarez]

Thats the american way though, throw a bunch of money at a lawyer, rather than look for a solution to the problem.

I thought you were going to say: That's the American way, being lost.

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[fgaliegue]

> Most people don't care what OS they have

That's the point, really.

Too many online services require that you have Windows (be it for Internet Explorer alone and its much maligned ActiveX) in order to operate. As long as this kind of mentality doesn't change among software _editors_, there's little chance that Linux on the desktop will be a viable option.

I have faith, however, that a mentality shift will eventually happen. And that's not about licenses only (I praise Nokia for LGPL'ing Qt, they made the Right Thing(tm)), it's also about programming habits: the vast majority of computers with Windows are run with admin privileges 100% of the time, and many (Windows) application programmers take this fact for granted (a vast majority of games won't run as a regular user!). This HAS to change. I believe this WILL change. Soon. For some definiton of "soon", of course.

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[mark72005]

It sounds like someone told her "Yeah, you can do all those things with Ubuntu", so she bought it. Then when she got the laptop, things weren't as easy as she thought - there's no Word, configuration doesn't resemble Windows, she can't use the internet.

Really, without the internet, what good is a computer? I don't blame a novice user for feeling like Dell misrepresented what they were selling her.

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[Lumpy]

MY experience in michigan is different. Many times the tech refused to help if I did not run their disc.

I hope it changed, It's been 3 months cince I helped someone get online with a new DSL install.

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[mewshi_nya]

No, he's alive and kicking.

And my girlfriend's name is Colee. You can't have Colee. If you replace Kenny with a computer of equal or better specs, take him :P

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[hardburn]

It's a local tech college. They're pretty good as local tech colleges go, but they're as Microsoft-centric as anywhere else.

Long ago, I served time on the help desk at the library there. Mac OSX was still relatively new, and the library had gotten some shiny new Macs in with OSX preinstalled (of course, PCs outnumbered Macs about 10:1). For some reason, all of them were reinstalled with OS 9 a few days after they came in. One of our regular Mac users was very irate at us, but of course us help desk folks had nothing to do with it.

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[Norwell Bob]

How exactly is the parent flamebait?

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[NeilTheStupidHead]

At the tech school I recently graduated from, a course on writing reports had a graded "Microsoft Office requirements" component on every piece of written work, and required electronic submission so the instructor could verify that the desired formatting was being done properly instead of just being fudged.

I did every report and presentation in OpenOffice and saved MS Word and Power Point compatible versions of my files when it came time to submit my work. The instructors never knew the difference and I got the highest mark in the class.

Personally, I've been trying out various Linux distros for the past 10 years. I never really found any to be a suitable replacement for Windows on any of my computers until I got my hands on Hardy. My first Hardy install onto a Windows pre-loaded Dell laptop went as smoothly and as quickly as I've ever had an OS install (excepting maybe MSDOS but that hardly counts). The only hardware that didn't work immediately after the install was the wireless card, but ndiswrapper and Wifi-radar quickly solved that.

Re:Expected

[Nebu]

She also can't install Microsoft Word, which she says is a requirement for MATC's online classes. .. MATC also says it promises to accept any of Schubert's papers or class documents using whatever software she has installed.

Sounds like somebody doesn't have their story straight. FUD should be consistent within an article if you want people to believe it.

You're a bit too paranoid if that's sufficient evidence for you to believe that the article is pro-Microsoft FUD. This type of situation is so common in real life, there's a term specifically crafted to refer to it. It's called "he-said-she-said."

1. The article says that the woman claims she needs to install Microsoft Word.
2. The article says that the university claims they will accept papers using whatever software she has installed.

From this, it does not necessarily follow that the article is lying.

It also does not follow that there was any malicious pro-Microsoft conspiracy from any of the involved parties:

The university says the you can submit documents using any software, but probably strongly implies that it must be submitted via *some* software, i.e. they don't accept hand written submissions that are snail-mailed in.

The woman hears that she needs to write papers using some software, and thus immediately translates that to mean she needs to write papers using Microsoft Word, because the two are equivalent to her.

The woman asks Dell to install Microsoft Windows, and uses as justification for why she wants Windows "I need Microsoft Word to write my papers".

I'd much more likely attribute the factually false statements the woman made to ignorance, than malice.

Re:Expected

[jaymz666]

If she was talked out of exchanging it, doesn't that mean she is even stupider, since she needed windows to do the task at hand?

Re:Expected

[agrounds]

Another lying Micro$hill who avoids the obvious. OOo can read and save in .doc format.

Ignoring the mean-spirited zealotness of this post, I will point out that saving OOo documents in MS Office format does not properly conserve all document formatting. I have found this to be true time and time again for word processing documents that have real formatting and inserted tables and graphics.

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[Keeper Of Keys]

Although it's much better than it was even a few years ago, it's still not an idiot-friendly OS where things 'just work'

Judging by the number of support calls I get from friends, nor is Windows.

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[ShieldW0lf]

The problem is, as I've been flamed for before, Linux is still nowhere near the point where a non-techie will consider adopting it. Although it's much better than it was even a few years ago, it's still not an idiot-friendly OS where things 'just work', compared to what people are used to.

My 8 year old uses it just fine.

The woman is an airhead. Airheads regularly fail to critically examine what they're doing, then blame others for their lack of success. It's a personality flaw, and nothing anyone does is going to provide anything more than a very temporary fix. So, attempting to solve the problems of people like this woman by changing the operating system are doomed to failure.

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[MacColossus]

I have used Verizon wireless usb adapters on my Mac without VZaccess. I just plugged it in and it worked. My understanding is Linux has similar drivers available and it just works on there as well. VZaccess is not required.

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[couchslug]

Windows is the standard consumer OS. Apple is the second standard.

Attempts to differentiate from their way of doing things are fine for power users, but noobs don't need to deal with that, they need to do WORK.

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[be951]

That's called bait and switch, and it's a swindle.

Um, no. Nothing here suggests that she ordered a Windows machine and got Ubuntu instead. She either didn't pay close enough attention, or did not understand enough about computers to know the difference. That's not a swindle. That's user error.

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[Anonymous Coward]

even stupider

"More stupid" you fucking idiot.

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[jae471]

Its not a matter of saving in .doc format. Its often more a matter of trying to get Writer to play nice with SharePoint or other misc. shit.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck you, I'm eating.

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[jbolden]

The Verizon install disks

1) Walk you through configuring the home router (basically get you to the 192.168.0.1:80 page)

2) Create a weblink in your browser to verizon.net and get the cookie on your browser.

How exactly did this stop her from using the internet?

And Ubuntu comes with OpenOffice. Also she goes to a tech school. This seems to me like a very poorly researched article.

Re:Expected

[bhtooefr]

Vista's highly annoying level of UAC was actually designed in an annoying manner on purpose, to try to get users to complain to the developers.

However, "Publisher: Microsoft Corporation" means... yeah, it backfired. :P

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the sort of thing that is going to happen when you give a normal person *nix. Sadly, in this case, Windows "just works."

Bzzzzt! Wrong!

If windows "just works" she wouldn't have needed the verizon internet install cd to get online.

Re:Expected

[Maxo-Texas]

Not in my experience (yet).

Windows is still easier.

However, linux has made a lot of progress in my eyes in the last 24 months.

Ubuntu is having a huge effect in this area. There is finally a stable team doing polishing.
Linux needed polishing. It needed to look prettier (Red Hat did some nice stuff in this area too as I recall).

Now- what *should* have happened was that she turned on her computer and it said, "Do you want to set up the internet?"

When she clicked "yes", it should have showed pictures about plugging in the wires (2 hours work to set up), with a little script (maybe 16 hours?) that checks for a router and things like that. It asks her about her internet provider's DNS service but if she does not know it, then it points her at one of the free open dns services (being polite about it to her).

It tests the connection and then asks about other common things a new user might want to do (like word processing) and suggests the major candidates- installing the one she selects from a list.

This is probably less than a month's work to write. But it hasn't been done yet. It needs to be done. There needs to be an extremely friendly interview/installation process for linux to take it to the next level.

It can start off with "Are you new to Linux?" as a text prompt and take it from there. Expert users would go down a different path.

Re:Expected

[C18H27NO3]

I use a Verizon 3G wireless usb on my Ubuntu box and it couldn't be simpler.
Run gnome-ppp and enter the following in respective fields:

Username: phone_num@vzw3g.com
Password: vzw
Phone #: #777
Device: /dev/ACM0
Type: USB

Click 'Connect'
That's all there is to it.

There is no need for having Windows installed for her to get on teh intarwebs and OO.org suite is a reasonable alternative to Office.
(Off to rtfa, now)

Re:Expected

[Ohio Calvinist]

If someone is willing to pay $20/unit (community college) to $100-200/unit (public university) and hundreds of dollars for books, she could have either forked up the $90 or so bucks they charge for Windows, taken it somewhere and let them do it, or taken CIS 100 "Intro to the Internet" or CIS 101 "Computer Applications" and figured how to do it herself. With all the money it costs to attend school at some of the most affordable colleges, getting her computer fixed (even though it didn't need "fixing") is a drop in the bucket. Granted, I know some folks are pretty against the wall financially, but she should have developed better problem solving and critical thinking skills than what she obviously has not seemed to developed, well before university.

Re:Expected

[LordKaT]

It's not an excuse for her mental shortcoming, it's an example of.

Re:Expected

[jbolden]

Most likely she asked questions like "can I do papers in Ubuntu" and they told her how.

Dell is making a play to be a major Ubuntu reseller on Netbooks. Their tech support has to learn how to provide end user support for Ubuntu. Not just say "use windows".

And frankly this story doesn't smell right to me.

Re:Expected

[jbolden]

192.168.0.1:80

Re:Expected

[johnsonav]

Linux is still nowhere near the point where a non-techie will consider adopting it.

Exactly. Linux today is mostly used by techies (or people with ready access to techies). Verizon and MATC have little incentive to spend the money to support Linux users, most will figure it out on their own. But, without that support, Linux will not be suitable for people who depend on the step-by-step hand-holding they are used to. Its a Catch-22.

Re:Expected

[droazen]

Ubuntu can't network out-of-the-box, and needs a Verizon CD? Whoa!

Verizon ships their DSL modems/routers configured to refuse to make any outside connections. The Verizon install cd then flips a setting on the router to enable internet connectivity. To do this manually without the installation cd, one must visit the completely undocumented page http://192.168.1.1/verizon/redirect.asp and click "disable." This is not exactly the sort of thing one could expect a non-technical person to discover...

Re:Expected

[deraj123]

contrary to the article this doesn't void your dell guarantee.

It is not unheard of that Dell will attempt to tell you that loading a different operating system voids your warranty.

We spent a few weeks back in October getting my brother-in-law's laptop repaired under warranty, and it took a letter to the Better Business Bureau to convince Dell that installing Ubuntu on a laptop that originally came with Windows did not void the warranty. (yes, the letter actually had an effect...Dell became extremely cooperative after that)

I should add that I'm not apologizing for the woman, but, given that she knows as little as she does, not doing something that the manufacturer tells you will void your warranty is probably a good decision.

Re:Expected

[KasperMeerts]

Gawd, not this again.

Then tell me what does not Just Work. If you're so daft that you can't even figure out to clock on Applications->Office->Word processor, then you should consider an elementary computer class, with no matter which OS. Even OS X is harder, you have to navigate the Dock first.

Remember, this is not someone who installed Ubuntu, Dell did that for her.

Re:Expected

[websitebroke]

The answer to the Verizon situation is to call up customer support and get the PPP username and password and enter it into your router manually. Since the Verizon installation CD has a whole shitload of flash presentations explaining the difference between a power cord, phone cord and ethernet cord that need to be skipped through by clicking the mouse a million times, the pain of being on the phone with customer support is about the same. The actual entering of the username/password takes about 30 seconds including firing up Firefox. On the other hand, I have my doubts that this person would have understood how to do this. I doubt the support technicians would have been able to walk it through with her either. (the guy I got on the phone last time sounded a bit panicked when I told him I was using Linux to set up my DSL) Openoffice most definitely DOES come with Ubuntu, and if, for some reason, Dell didn't ship OO with it, it's a simple installation via Synaptic. The Dell support folks should have know that. One thing that my wife has had trouble with in her online courses (besides Blackboard being super slow in Firefox) is that Openoffice can't read annotations put in her papers by her professors and vice versa, because the professors use Word. It would be really nice if colleges would switch to some sort of open format for this sort of thing! The problem in all the above is that most people are entirely unaware of Microsoft's incompatibility/lock-in games.

Re:Expected

[rikkards]

More likely your friends are stupid. (just kidding):)

Re:Expected

[pha3r0]

This is the sort of thing that is going to happen when you give a normal person *nix. Sadly, in this case, Windows "just barely works."

There fixed that for you :)

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

"is ndiswrapper too much to expect of anyone to use"

For most people.... yeah.

Re:Expected

[LordKaT]

Ah, if only Slashdot had nested this comment correction. ;_;

Re:Expected

[yincrash]

Without access to the Internet, how are you supposed to know how to do this?

Re:Expected

[bhtooefr]

Actually, no - Macs have enough market share and enough of a non-expert segment of the population that people cater to Mac users.

And, there's also MS Word available for Macs. I know, I've got it on my Mac.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it sure can. As long as you don't mind your formatting being all jacked up. Now, for a simple doc that you could have just used some text editor for - sure, Open Office will do great. But if you did anything more complex (say a table within a table) or a watermark using a graphic or something) it will quite simply make a mess of it.

We had some Sun folks out (over a year ago mind you) trying to sell us on using Star Office and handing out sample CD's. I took it home, round tripped some documents and brought them in to the next day's meeting all printed out and asked them if they really thought we could just "drop in Star Office" like they had been trying to say before.

It was a beautiful thing to see how hard they had to try to continue smiling.

That said, Open Office or Star Office do work fine for many documents and round tripping most between Word and OO does work.

We have some legal docs though that must look the same and have text on the same pages/line numbers, etc. and it didn't cleanly work for all of that.

Re:Expected

[dubbreak]

For all I care, the doctor/financial advisor can be a luddite, using pen and paper for all his/her records, as long as they do the job well.

Personally if my GP or accountant started smashing mills or looms I'd probably take my business elsewhere regardless of their apparent performance.

Re:Expected

[Gallomimia]

Long live the mac! I personally have been able to cope with most problems outlined by agrounds since I have only a mac and no windows machine available. I'd love to help find a working solution for you, but it seems the one you have now is good enough. If you want to mail me at gmail.com I will do my best.

We all know the stance of Micro$oft in this matter. Working as intended. Incompatibility is their greatest marketing technique and it works great since they hold a huge market share, but it's causing them to lose ground. However, I noticed none of the other software companies or the makers of products mention in this thread have 19 billion "Cash On Hand" on their financial statements. Oops. My mistake. Apple has 24 /cheer Still, Microsoft has 28% profit margin versus Apple's 14. Microsoft has marketing genius to be doing what they're doing and not go bankrupt.

Re:Expected

[bilbravo]

Are you sure you read the entire post? Poster is not sure exactly what the situation is with Verizon, but is sure there is a work around. Not that difficult to comprehend.

What I gathered from the post was that he wasn't exactly sure what the problem was with verizon, but the poster knows enough about computers and DSL to assumed (correctly) that there is a way to connect to the internet with Verizon and with Ubuntu.

Re:Expected

[jslater25]

My first guess is that the gal ordered Ubuntu simply by choosing the cheaper computer.

Re:Expected

[Mad Merlin]

The real news is at the end of the article, past the sensationalism:

However, we think we've helped her get back to school.

Verizon says it will dispatch a technician to try to assist her accessing the internet without using the Windows-only installation disk.

MATC also says it promises to accept any of Schubert's papers or class documents using whatever software she has installed.

It's really more a matter of awareness. We know that you don't need a Windows-only installation disk (sic) to access the Internet, nor do you need MS Office to save MS Office compatible files (if they even need those instead of say, a PDF), but most people don't.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know this for certain (and too lazy to go check) but aren't the windows laptops more expensive than the linux laptops? It could be as simple as the girl asked for windows, but was convinced otherwise when told she'd have to pay for it.

I have a hard time believing that a dell service rep would care about her keeping ubuntu.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

"This is the sort of thing that is going to happen when you give a normal person *nix."

Wrong. She could be running a certified UNIX system and done all that and more! OSX

Re:Expected

[trolltalk.com]

The same applies to different versions of Word on different computers. Your point?

Too much time is wasted on presentation in place of content. Students increasing font sizes and spacing to try to make a 2-page text meet the 10-page requirement, for example.

We'd all be better off if scholastic submissions were all in plain text, with carriage returns between paragraphs.

Re:Expected

[Gallomimia]

So that's when you use the drop down and save as "Microsoft Word 97/2000/XP (.doc)"

The point of the post you are replying to is to illustrate that the students are in fact ignorant of this necessity, mostly because the profs are ignorant to the fact that they must inform them of the difference. In short, it's a way to sell the new "improved" version.

Re:Expected

[enharmonix]

is ndiswrapper too much to expect of anyone to use, even the easy as hell to use gui for wireless because it isn't installed by default?

ndiswrapper probably isn't necessary. The software was most likely VZ Access Manager, which is just a modem dialer. Ubuntu recognizes the modem, so you only need to tell it what number to dial: #777. I'm a total linux noob and managed to get WWAN setup on Ubuntu.

Re:Expected

[Gallomimia]

Ah Americans. Products of the system. Trained to ignore their own shortcomings and instead give up then blame anyone but themselves.

Lawsuits keep lawyers informed! That's good for the economy!

Re:Expected

[cbiltcliffe]

The reality of it all is that for some things you truly do need Windows because that is what the company you are working with expect. Calling and whining to the company that runs the online certification program does absolutely nothing, and all students are expected to comply with this because that is how the program works.

This isn't a problem with Linux. This isn't a problem with Apple.

This is a problem with arrogance. Specifically, the arrogance of the company that's running the program.

What they're doing isn't much different from a college wiring their buildings with 3-phase 182 volt outlets - completely non-standard crap - and ripping out all the 120 volt ones. (240 volt for some European customers)

Then, when you try to plug in your laptop, they tell you "You have to buy this specific power supply from us for a few hundred dollars."

When you bitch about it, they point to the fine print in your student guide that mentions the laptop adapter requirements.

It's retarded, and you know it. You shouldn't need to buy a whole new computer to get your course material. In your case, you didn't, because you had a Windows PC. But what about the student who just bought a top of the line Mac a year ago, and doesn't own another machine?

This certification company should be boycotted. But since 90% of the population doesn't even know they're being abused, it never will be.

Re:Expected

[Dreen]

Agree to parent. Also, its the fundamental issue with FOSS: people expect things from community, which is a mistake. The community owns you nothing, YOU own the community. Actually, communities dont really give a flying fuck if someone is too stupid to use it's software (in case when intelligent homo sapiens is capable of such thing). There is no reason for them to care. Let the retards stick to Windows I say.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

The parent was talking about basic problem-solving, not computer know-how. Figuring out new skills (getting a network to connect) based on existing, simpler skills (navigating a windows-based operating system).

Re:Expected

[ThePhilips]

You are underestimating her.

Be the girl airhead, she'd likely have a boyfriend who could have helped her to configure the lappy as she wished.

My first impression is that the girl wanted to skip classes and was just looking for excuse. And she found.

Re:Expected

[jbolden]

This person supposedly dropped out of school over this. Not that I believe the story but assuming it were true avoiding being forced to terminate her education is the reason to find an ad-hoc work around.

Sorry you don't get to pull the "no reason to have to" defense here, she is being presented as a highly incentivized Linux newbie.

Re:Expected

[pluther]

If the Dell support rep could have just given her two or three helpful tips, she could have probably been fine. OpenOffice is a perfect replacement for Word. I don't know about her Verizon situation, but I'm sure there is a workaround for that.

My guess is, that's exactly what the Dell rep did when he "talked her into" keeping her Ubuntu box.

Seems likely that she then forgot, or didn't know where to click to launch OpenOffice, or something like that.

She's used to Windows, and didn't expect a learning curve, however small, as things are not arranged the way she's used to.

From what I've hear of Verizon's setup software, anyone even marginally technically literate will find it easier to manually set up their connection than try to rely on it.

The problem is, as I've been flamed for before, Linux is still nowhere near the point where a non-techie will consider adopting it. Although it's much better than it was even a few years ago, it's still not an idiot-friendly OS where things 'just work', compared to what people are used to.

The hard part about Linux is the initial setup. Especially finding, installing, and configuring drivers to work with all of your various hardware. Since Dell does all that part before shipping the boxes,[1] yeah, it really does "just work" by the time the consumer gets it.

---

(1) I'm assuming they do. If they don't, they're idiots. But I'm not really going so far out on a limb as to suggest that a major corporation couldn't possibly be staffed largely by idiots.

Re:Expected

[Belial6]

Again, computers are complex and hard, Expecting the normal person to understand them or even be able to configure them is silly.

No, they are not hard and the vast majority of the complexity is hidden even to experienced users. At 1, my son was using his computer with no problems. ~1 week after his second birthday, I formatted his hard drive, gave him an Ubuntu disk, and left him to reinstall on his own. He did it with no problems at all. I understand that my kid is a mutant super genius, but if even the smartest 2 year old on the planet can install and run a computer when they don't even know how to read yet, you cannot honestly claim that they are "hard". This article is about a grown woman that knows how to read.

I would be hard pressed to believe that the Dell computer did not come preconfigured to access the internet, and the Open Office that come on it reads and writes Word documents. The the woman claims that she had to miss a full year of school because of this. That means that in 1 full year, she could not figure out how to solve her problem. Given that she had all day to seek out help and information (since she wasn't in class or doing homework), it is simply not believable that she could not find someone to tell her "In Open Office, use SaveAs and change the file type to Microsoft Word", and "The computer comes preconfigured to access the internet. Just plug it into your DSL".

Unfortunately, it is clear that this woman is lying, and lying poorly. There are all sorts of reasons that people drop out of school. There are all sorts of lies that people tell to rationalize their choice. Often to themselves.

Re:Expected

[jbolden]

The popularity of OSX works well here. This is a large customer base that spends a lot on software and services that won't use windows apps.

Re:Expected

[goltzc]

That's why you do what I did with my Ubbuntu laptop. You make a gigantic firefox icon that can be see from space and rename it INTERNET. The only question I ever get is how do you make windows look like this.

Re:Expected

[Gallomimia]

I don't wanna have her. You can keep her. I just wanna F*($ her.

Re:Expected

[fgaliegue]

Vista's highly annoying level of UAC was actually designed in an annoying manner on purpose, to try to get users to complain to the developers.

However, "Publisher: Microsoft Corporation" means... yeah, it backfired. :P

I wouldn't see it that way. My understanding is that MS has acknowledged the fact that (100-epsilon)% of computers out there in the wild run as admin and tried to limit this behaviour. And also that most of them don't even have a password to begin with. Meh.

But they did it the wrong way, imho. Instead of forcing a regular, non priviledged user to be created and only ask for admin privileges for some operations (as Ubuntu does), they left things as is and flooded Joe User with warnings - so many warnings that most users either answer yes every time or, if they are skilled enough, shun them.

No wonder that Vista turns out to be as little secure as its predecessors were. Ubuntu should have taught them a lesson, but... No. Go figure. And that's without even mentioning the fact that 99+% of viruses/trojans are ineffective if you run as a normal user. This is all the more a pity that Windows (from NT on) _does_ have very fine-grained security mechanisms.

Re:Expected

[neowolf]

In newer Ubuntu distributions (presumably what is pre-installed on the Dell is pretty new) compiling ANYTHING is unnecessary and using Wine is automatic. An average user should never even need to touch the terminal. A stock first-time install of Ubuntu provided her with everything she actually needed.

As many-many others have pointed out- this is a case of a person not willing to take responsibility for themselves and actually LEARN something, who instead has decided to blame others for her problems.

Re:Expected

[deraj123]

I've always thought that Idiocracy was an insightful and predictive documentary - it's just too bad that it's such a bad movie.

Re:Expected

[jbolden]

She most likely had to go out of her way to order Ubuntu. Dell does not make it easy to do this accidentally. She didn't pay attention to what she was buying. She then had a conversation where she did understand what she bought and decided to keep it.

This is not a bait and switch.

Re:Expected

[trolltalk.com]

We have some legal docs though that must look the same and have text on the same pages/line numbers, etc. and it didn't cleanly work for all of that.

Same thing happens under ms-office with different printers.

Re:Expected

[liegeofmelkor]

I did every report and presentation in OpenOffice and saved MS Word and Power Point compatible versions of my files when it came time to submit my work. The instructors never knew the difference...

Then you were lucky. Files written in OO regularly come up with distorted formatting when opened in MS Word. Tables and figures (in nearly any Word-supported image format) will usually trigger some garbling... and if you type an equation object in OO, you KNOW its going to look like gibberish in Word. For serious applications (like a peer-reviewed journal article), you either need Word or an app that outputs PDF's directly (Tex). Relying on OO files to open properly in Word just won't cut it!

Re:Expected

[Gallomimia]

Let's remember to distinguish between flavors of Windows, shall we?

Why? They all taste like catshit and molasses.

Re:Expected

[Atrox666]

..but Ubuntu has the electrolytes users crave.

Re:Expected

[lysergic.acid]

yea, it's pretty idiotic that a a "setup disc" is involved with DSL installation. it's usually just to install the ISP's rebranded browser and IE toolbar, or in some cases software to ensure that you're not using a router and only have one computer using the DSL connection.

in any case, even if a broadband service somehow "requires" client software, it's not too unreasonable to expect the ISP to provide Mac & Linux options. we're not talking about a 3D game or some complex application like a video editing suite. providing support for the 3 most common OSes should be a given for basic services like internet access.

in any case, this girl sounds like a moron. you don't need a computer to "go back to school." and chances are if she'd just asked/looked around campus she could have found someone to help her solve these trivial problems. heck, a simple search on Google from the school library could have guided her in the right direction.

Re:Expected

[Risen888]

But there is no reason for a normal person to find some ad-hoc work around to the software not working on an OS they have no special love for.

Response the first: So would that Verizon CD have worked if she'd put it in a Mac? Really, this is an open question to anyone who's dealt with it, I don't know.

Response the second: Guess what everybody? You can't put Playstation games in a Wii! Holy shit!

In most people's minds, Office = MS. They aren't going to go looking for random alternatives just because they are out there. That isn't the way people work.

Yeah, Applications > Office > Word Processor is just so random. I mean, who would expect it? And that interface! Why, it's just so radically different from Office 2000, of course we can't expect this poor person to possibly understand it! This is obviously the geeks' fault.

Re:Expected

[jcgf]

What if we replace Colee with a woman of equal or better specs?

Re:Expected

[SanityInAnarchy]

But there is no reason for a normal person to find some ad-hoc work around to the software not working on an OS they have no special love for.

We're not talking about an "ad-hoc" workaround, we're talking about the normal way to do things. Verizon provides an easier solution in the form of Windows software, but from the comments I'm seeing here, that "easier" solution really isn't.

They aren't going to go looking for random alternatives just because they are out there.

Sorry, but there's a difference between Googling for something to download, and having the tiniest ounce of curiosity required even for a five year old to find Applications -> Office -> Word Processor.

The only reason to ever look for an alternative is when it DOESN'T work.

And in this case Office isn't installed. Rather than enlist a five year old to help her out, she dropped out of college. In fact, from TFA:

Verizon says it will dispatch a technician to try to assist her accessing the internet without using the Windows-only installation disk.
MATC also says it promises to accept any of Schubert's papers or class documents using whatever software she has installed.

Re:Expected

[ivanmarsh]

The problem is, as I've been flamed for before, Linux is still nowhere near the point where a non-techie will consider adopting it.

No... the problem is if you're too stupid to read Dells' website that tells you EXACTLY what OS will be shipping on the machine you just ordered you're too stupid to use a computer no matter what OS is on it. ...and for the record, I'd just about bet she had to physically check the box in the customization wizard on Dells' site that removed Windows from the machine and put Linux on it.

"Oh... I can save another $300 on this machine and I don't know what that is so I probably don't need it."

Ah... the future of America.

Re:Expected

[C18H27NO3]

Well, I was expecting that maybe the Dell tech would have told her over the phone.
If Dell sells Ubuntu on their boxes they should be obligated to support them as well.
Obviously Dell isn't Verizon but it _is_ just a general connectivity issue so they should have been able to get it up and running.

Re:Expected

[neumayr]

The girl is stupid?
Because she wants to use her computer as the tool it's advertised to be, and found herself thrown into an OS feud she didn't know, or care, about?
I think you need to adjust your criteria for diagnosing stupidity..

Re:Expected

[jbolden]

We can blame the woman in this story for not pulling out the man pages, searching google extensively, working things on command-line, etc... or we can accept that normal, average people should not have to do these things for a mature operating system. They expect things to work. She is not wrong for this.

No one is blaming her for not doing that. They are blaming her for not using OO for general papers and they are blaming her for not doing any kind of troubleshooting, like going to verizon.com and looking up how to do a non windows install (which is clearly documented).

And yes Ubuntu isn't a good choice in your wife's case where she is being asked to use an ActiveX webapp. But that is not the scenario described in the article.

Re:Expected

[slack_prad]

Without access to the Internet, how are you supposed to know how to do this?

The library?

Re:Expected

[SanityInAnarchy]

Neither was required.

Her complaint was that she couldn't run the Verizon disk to set up an Internet connection -- not required, and probably easier without it.

Her other complaint was that she couldn't use Microsoft Office -- apparently, she never found OpenOffice, which comes preinstalled with Ubuntu. She claims it was a requirement, but her school doesn't really care what's used to produce the documents, as long as they work.

So, you're right, it is her fault for not asking the right questions -- but it's also her fault for not exploring her new OS even the slightest bit, and for immediately blaming it for all of her problems.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

That seems very straightforward to anyone on here, but for the average user...if there's not someone holding their hand every step of the way, what you posted seems like magical incantations to conjur demons.
posting anon to preserve moderation...

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Best Buy will tell you this as well. I bought a Dell from them a few months ago. When I explained I didn't need the Geek Squad to install all their crap for me as I was just going to put Linux on it anyway the salesman told my I would void the warranty. More likely I was voiding his extra sales numbers....

Re:Expected

[SanityInAnarchy]

Ideally, call Dell and have support answer. Or call Verizon.

Better, go to your local library. They'll have Internet, and computers to use it on, and printers to use if you have to take the instructions back with you.

Re:Expected

[Urza9814]

Meh, I guess...but this person still shouldn't be going to college. I mean, do you really want a doctor who, when she fails to determine your disease, doesn't try to research what you could possibly have, but instead files a lawsuit against you?

Re:Expected

[Risen888]

Bullshit. You certainly can do all those things with Ubuntu. She, for whatever reason, did not want to. It's that simple.

Re:Expected

[StarWreck]

This article is about a grown woman that knows how to read.

No, this article is about a grown woman that is too lazy to read or even call tech support. She waited until 6 months later and then called the local News. Never even tried to call tech support.

Re:Expected

[cyphercell]

Yes, but presumably Verizon technical support doesn't know how to do that.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no way you can expect an average user to figure out how to compile drivers or even use wine to make this work.

There are commercial projects that do all the work for you to get your MS apps to work. Its called crossover office by codeweavers. What we need is more commercial Linux applications that solve complex technical problems that people like us like to solve.

So, get programming... take $$ from MS get everyone to switch to Linux... Now the support dough starts rolling in. :)

Re:Expected

[jbolden]

Verizon has webpages which document how to get their internet service to work without their install disks and has for about 4 years now. They offer an "all in one" install disk as a convenience.

The web is loaded with "how to get service X to work with Ubuntu articles". I don't buy this story at all.

Re:Expected

[snowraver1]

I have a qbenrocksp keyboard at work. I just pulled off the keys and rearranged them leaving the first and last letter the same. People often sit down, look at the keyboard for a few seconds, and then gingerly start hunting and pecking, sending gibberish to the monitor.

Re:Expected

[robpoe]

OpenOffice is a perfect replacement for Word.

No, it is not a perfect replacement for Word. The organization that I consult for just replaced most of their MS Office with OOo 3.0.

They are a county government, and thus have many, many standardized state forms, as well as custom content developed by people ages ago. Open these things up in OOo and they are a total and complete mess.

One Excel document, which is used extensively around here (employee performance) is automated to the point of where it incorporates the required procedural methods to be completed if the employee were to receive neutral to bad on any of the job assessments (radio buttons / etc). It took more than half a day to fix just that one sheet to work and look as it used to.

We made the transition, but it's not perfect. It's a lot of damn work.

Re:Expected

[CannonballHead]

So let's blame her out of ignorance...

I kinda doubt Verizon randomly offered that until this made some sort of news. This news story appears to cover a significant span of time, as one does not drop out of spring AND fall semesters a month before the FALL semester... at least, usually.

Yes, she didn't understand its possible to configure internet access without the cdrom. Frankly, Verizon makes that hard to understand unless you actually understand waht you're actually doing. She's young and she SHOULD get it, but hey, not everyone does. Does Verizon support Linux, by the way? Last time I called Verizon, they wouldn't even let me use a non-internet-explorer browser to help debug an issue. All I wanted was to check to see if there was an outage.

IMO, this is osmething bad that can happen when Linux is touted as being just like Windows, just as easy as Windows, blah blah blah. People read tha tand see "Oh, I can do anything I can do in Windows on Linux." And they aren't thinking "Oh, I can use OpenOffice for documents instead of Microsoft Word," they are thinking "I can install Microsoft Word!" Ok, so not everyone, but a lot of people are - I get the questions. ("Why can't I just install ********?")

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe your friends are extreme idiots?

Re:Expected

[mhall119]

I don't know about her Verizon situation, but I'm sure there is a workaround for that

From what I gathered from the article, the problem was that Verizon sends a "setup CD" with their DSL modem, which contains (when I had it) a program written in MS Java 1.1 that does nothing more than configure Windows to use DHCP. Verizon claims that you need to run this program to get the DSL setup, but it's completely unnecessary on Windows or Linux.

This woman's problem was that she was told she needed to have things that she didn't need to have. She was told she had to run the CD when she didn't, she was told she needed MS Word, when all she needed was to read+write .doc files.

Ultimately she gave up on an online education because she couldn't figure out her computer, which makes me thing that she wasn't all that interested in getting it all to work in the first place.

Re:Expected

[Big Boss]

Or at the very least a format that DOES look the same on different computers and software. Perhaps PDF? At least then you can have your fancy formatting and charts, graphs, pictures, whatever. Plain text might be a little too much to ask for.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Did your 8 year old install it, and does the 8 year old admin it?

I put some Ubuntu on my laptop, and getting everything set up took quite a bit of CLI, and googling before I got my wireless up and my networking working correctly. I'm a software engineer.

Re:Expected

[jbolden]

What was the problem you needed a tech for? As a piece of advice for later just tell them you have a non standard install (i.e. you won't be able to follow your help desk script) ask specific questions and then ask for networking.

Re:Expected

[jbolden]

Verizon does support any OS. They have lots of webpages documenting settings. There are lots of pages on getting Ubuntu to work.

The article is BS.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

But it is much easier to just blame Dell for her own lack of understanding.

Re:Expected

[jcochran]

Without access to the Internet, how are you supposed to buy a computer from http://www.dell.com/ ?

Re:Expected

[na1led]

Ubuntu is not for idiots thats for sure. I think if your a first time computer user, Ubuntu would be far easier to learn than windows. Ubuntu comes with everything you need, and is easy to find and use. Even my dad who is 60 and has a difficult time trying to use the mouse finds it easier using Ubuntu. I use Ubuntu to do my classes online with Kaplan University, never had a problem so far.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

If by "unit" you mean credit hour, I don't know where you think people are going to school for $20 per credit hour.

I go to a community college and it is $90 per credit hour (in-state) and ~$250 (out-of-state).

Re:Expected

[bigblacknigger]

No, you numbnuts. She wanted to, there just wasn't anybody to hold her hand through the process. Fuck, you Linux dweebs are dense.

Re:Expected

[eulernet]

In that case, how did she buy this computer ?

I guess she ordered it online, so she has access to the Internet.

Re:Expected

[orielbean]

Seriously, she should take some classes on critical thinking or something...

Re:Expected

[jbolden]

I agree. I don't think on netbooks people understand what they are getting. A clear message on the box like:

WARNING: This computer is sold with Limpus a highly customized operating system designed to maximize usability. It includes hundreds of free software packages with thousands more available over the internet, also free,capable of meeting your needs. It is not however a windows computer, and will not run specific software.

Re:Expected

[BronsCon]

I've always had to provide near constant support for my mom's Windows PC, from 95, to 98, to XP, to Vista.

She's also had a Linux laptop for the last 3 years. The extent of support I gave her with it was helping her eBay a new battery and telling her where to get the Ubuntu ISO and how to burn it.

She installed it herself, configured it herself and manages the system quite fine on her own. That little 1Ghz P3 with 512MB of RAM runs circles around her brand new Vista system.

Re:Expected

[Keeper Of Keys]

Hm, interesting that who of you had the same thought. Logically, though, if my friends were idiots (and I'm not saying they're not), they would be right at home on an idiot-friendly OS. Would it be an insult to Windows to call it a smart person-friendly OS?

Re:Expected

[SanityInAnarchy]

The online coursework is completely unaccessible without Internet Explorer. We've tried Safari, Chrome, and of course Firefox to no avail. You have to have IE.

Probably obvious, but did you try switching user agents?

There are ways to get IE working under Wine -- one script that's relatively easy, once you know it exists.

More importantly, this is a place where you need to complain to the course, not to the OS -- or to Microsoft, for that matter, since it'd be far easier for Microsoft to port IE to Unix (they did once before) than it would for Unix. Web standards are not any more difficult than IE only (especially with a framework to help you), and if you have to force a particular browser, it's far less obnoxious to force people to download a 10 meg browser that's available for any OS, than a several gig OS that's not available for all computers.

No, saving as an MS Office document does NOT preserve OOo's document formatting like it should.

Nor do all versions of Word. Better to start with an open format -- supported by recent versions of Word anyway -- or focus on content, not presentation. Or accept PDFs -- most colleges still accept (and often require) printed pages, so I don't see why PDFs are worse.

Calling and whining to the company that runs the online certification program does absolutely nothing,

In my experience, it does actually have an effect in many cases. After all, it's not a great system to begin with -- as I said, it's not hard to build to standards. The fact that they haven't suggests that there are probably other, large problems with the program.

Either way, complaining loudly does mean that if they ever get around to rebuilding it, they'll be aware of that problem.

We can blame the woman in this story for not pulling out the man pages, searching google extensively, working things on command-line, etc...

Man pages are unnecessary for her problem. So is the commandline. Everything can be done from a GUI -- a relatively more intuitive GUI than the Windows way. Perhaps the Verizon disc would've made things easier, perhaps worse, and either way, it would leave crapware that's unnecessary, and I would've avoided it on Windows.

I blame her for not doing the very simplest steps that it would take. Basic questions, like: "OK, I can't use Word, is there anything else like that I can use?" (Even just think that to yourself, then browse through the menus and find "Word Processor".) Then, ask the school, "Do I have to use Microsoft Office, if I can still turn in Office documents?" Then, ask Verizon, "The CD doesn't work. What do I need to know to get online?"

These are the same kind of questions you'd have to ask if you got a Mac. And you'd have to ask similar questions when getting a new computer at all, even a Windows one.

or we can accept that normal, average people should not have to do these things for a mature operating system.

What, ask those questions? I can't accept that.

I can't accept it, because it means the only OS that will ever be considered "mature" is Windows, and only because it is the dominant player. It means that I may as well give up on Linux now, because it will never be "user friendly" enough until it includes a copy of VMWare and Windows, which kind of defeats the purpose.

The only real solution to that kind of lock-in is to start educating people. Whether it was her fault or not, the problem is her ignorance, so the solution is her education.

Re:Expected

[cyphercell]

Yes and no. Verizon is having to dispatch a technician to physically go to her house to setup the Internet connection and Dell is not prepared to offer options like Crossover Office. Support from the companies that are intended to offer Internet support and software support. Both Dell and Verizon have failed. What's really sad is that there's no reason both Dell and Verizon can't contract out to someone that is both willing and capable of supporting Linux systems.

Re:Expected

[evilkasper]

OK I think we're forgetting that there is a very large number of people who are computer illiterate. People who have issues with basic functions of Windows, even though they are familiar with it as an OS. Now take someone who has no clue that there is anything other than Windows and Mac, give them some form of *nix and yeah they aren't going to have the first clue. Dell should have never urged her to keep it. Granted her claiming that it prevented her from going to college (online or otherwise) seems like a stretch. I mean where did she seek help?

Re:Expected

[thtrgremlin]

I think part of the problem is lack of cross platform support by places like Verison and what I am going to guess is University of Phoenix. As far as "what people are used to", if these two companies only train in XP and Vista, if you have NT4, Windows 2000, Windows 98, 2003 Server or anything that isn't EXACTLY what the phone techs were trained for, they arn't going to be able to help you AT ALL. Same issue with Word. If today the schools techs are only trained in Office 2008, if you have Office 2003 (or whatever was last) you are totally screwed. They can't help you one bit. OpenOffice is very easy to use and to learn, but if you get stuck, don't expect a phone monkey following a book to give you any assistance.

But I can understand in a way. When you are helping someone with a computer, you might be able to use it intuitively, but even another expert describing some version of software you are not intimately familiar with, you are going to be completely lost in your ability to help them.

Sure, there are some things that could make certain features more obvious in how to use, but personally in the way I use the computer today, that would just amount to bloat. I am a bit saddened that so much work is going into dumb GUIs to enable people to do things in an over simplified way that already worked just fine if you took a sec to look at the documentation for the config file, or where CL switches have just become check boxes. BLEH! But I will admit that came after quite a bit of poking around and making a deliberate effort to understand why things were designed the way they were. It is why Linux was always referred to (10 years ago) as the system by computer experts for computer experts. If it is by experts for experts, isn't it probably pretty good? It does "just work", but it does work differently.

But hey, deliberate learning for the sake of it isn't for everyone.

Re:Expected

[aliquis]

Or simply:

To save cost on this machine it ships without Windows. Instead it contains customized Linux installation suitable for most peoples everyday usage. However, if you really need any software especially made for Windows you can still buy or install a copy you already own.

Eventually if they could offer an option to acquire a valid OEM license, I have no idea if Microsoft would accept those being shipped to people who don't like the free alternative but I guess it would be good for Microsoft in any case.

Re:Expected

[Fallen Seraph]

She's stupid because she ordered it with Ubuntu of her own volition. Most websites will give you info on options you're unsure about when you order your computer, and seeing as how you have to actively select "Ubuntu" in the OS list, it's not like she just clicked continue through all the menus. As such, it is not Dell, or Ubuntu's fault that she doesn't know how to order a computer, and obviously didn't ask for help. And seeing as how, according to the article, rather than call Dell to ask "How can I read Word documents?" and call Verizon to ask "How can I connect my DSL without the CD?" she chose to drop out of not 1, but 2 semesters of college... yeah, I'd say she's pretty dumb, and obviously had no real interest in taking those courses. She's just looking to blame it on someone other than herself.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not buy Office 2008 for Mac. Our State Univ. its free or $20 if you want the CD. The offer a reasonably priced HOme and Student edition as well. I come from the Windows and Linux world. I have only had a Mac for a year. I have been able to allow my wife to do 100% of her school work on OS X with those req. It took a few minutes on Google. In fact all of our Macs came with a trial of Office.

2nd get ies4osx. www.kronenberg.org/ies4osx/
You double click run the install and an IE appears in your App folder.

Re:Expected

[ArcherB]

The problem is, as I've been flamed for before, Linux is still nowhere near the point where a non-techie will consider adopting it. Although it's much better than it was even a few years ago, it's still not an idiot-friendly OS where things 'just work', compared to what people are used to

I graduated from the University of Phoenix online using mostly Gentoo Linux. I have to say that it would not have been possible to do so without dual-booting to Windows. First, none of the online help explains how to set up their news group servers manually. I had to set it using the automated install tool in Windows and then copy the settings that it set up from outlook express to Pan.

Next was the fact that not all Windows apps have compatible Linux replacements. For example, we had to use MS Visio for a few of the classes and there is no Linux replacement, nor will Visio run under WINE. Another example would be that we used Access for the SQL class (I know, don't tell me).

Now if all she needed was MS Word, then OpenOffice would have worked for her. I was not so lucky.

Re:Expected

[Risen888]

By getting out of the computer business and selling fashion accessories. This is neither sarcastic nor trollish, I was just having this conversation with my girlfriend (who owns a Mac and likes it; I fucking hate the thing, it's like trying to surf the web on a Lego). They sell computers to people who don't want a computer. Brilliant business plan.

Re:Expected

[aliquis]

... maybe add "a free Linux installation", which would be arguable I assume since one would still pay for the work of bundling software I'd assume but instead of "omg how cheap, this computer is just so cheap because they haven't included Windows" people will read "ok, cool, I got this for free and didn't had to pay for windows!"

Or just get some "Free Linux operating system inside!" stickers explaining that the machine can't run normal Windows software, or explain that it may be able to run some thru Wine but that it won't be supported.

Re:Expected

[Phroggy]

You're right that paying someone to solve her problem would have been a very reasonable expense compared to the cost of the classes she was taking, but the classes you cite would not teach her anything about how to install Windows. In fact, both of the classes you mentioned probably require the student to have access to a working computer with Internet access, which she didn't have at home.

but she should have developed better problem solving and critical thinking skills than what she obviously has not seemed to developed, well before university.

You've hit the nail on the head here... but since she currently lacks problem solving and critical thinking skills, what can she do about it now?

Re:Expected

[sholsinger]

She doesn't have a broadband wireless card, she has DSL. This is different. In Verizon's efforts to save money by allowing the users to install the CPE (Customer Premises Equipment) rather than sending out techs to set it up, they added a "wizard on CD" to walk the customer through setting it up.

So the paper flier that you find when you open your box of gear, says, "Please insert the CD into your computer and follow the on-screen instructions." So, in an effort to save money, VZ has alienated customers who don't know they don't need the CD.

Besides TFA shows that the news channel contacted Verizon and they're sending a tech out to set it up for her.

So, rather than talking to Verizon about the problem, or her school, she just bitched an moaned until the local news station took a negative Linux is bad spin on it. The school, (after talking with the reporter) has agreed to accept her work in whatever format she can provide.

Not to mention, if she had insisted with DELL that she wanted to return the laptop for one with windows, she could have done so.

So in conclusion, I believe that this is a simple case of laziness and should be chalked up to "provide-more-documentation-in-the-users-face".

Lets make a little video that runs on the first boot that shows the user how to use the system as it comes pre-configured? If they want to watch it, great, if not, they can close it. But perhaps it should live on their desktop so they can watch it again if they "accidentally" closed it prematurely.

Re:Expected

[Risen888]

Actually, it's amazing how many people I've seen flounder on that. Which I guess is understandable, people who are used to Word are used to the corresponding menu in the Word save dialog having nothing to offer them. It doesn't occur to them to look. /shrug Whaddaya do?

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

The girl is stupid for many of the following reasons:

1. To get a Ubuntu Dell computer, you really have to try. Go to Dell's website, and try buy one. You won't be able to, without specifically trying to find one. I honestly have no idea how she ended up with one.

2. Once she got it, and realized it didn't have Windows, she tried to return it, and Dell somehow convinced her Ubuntu would work for her. This is where Dell screwed up. However, she screwed up a bit here, as well. It is still up to you, as a consumer, to protect yourself.

3. Once she figured out it didn't work easily, despite what the Dell support said, she didn't try to fix it herself, or have someone help her. Neither of the problems she had are hard to solve. Just because it is "technology" doesn't mean you get a free pass to just not try at all. If I bought a new dog, would you think it was ok for me to just assume everything would take care of itself? I shouldn't have to put any thought into getting it vaccinations, giving it the right kind of dog food, or housebreaking it?

4. Even if she ended up not being able to get it working for her, and somehow let the returnable time pass her by, she could have sold it and bought a new one with Windows. She chose not to, instead quitting 2 semesters of school and then calling the local news channel to complain.

She had tons, and tons, and tons, of outs. The reality is, that girl is D.U.M.B.

It has nothing to do with the technology, and everything to do with her buying and then not returning what she determined to be a defective product.

Re:Expected

[LordVader717]

Why should anyone be sued in the first place? The only problem here is that the woman didn't solve the problem or seek proper assistance, and it seems she had to wait for Mr. Newsman to contact Verizon or the University.
The problem with this article is that it's just non-news. Do the report on people getting faulty drivers on Windows machines too? But it leaves uninformed viewers with a bad impression.

Re:Expected

[ravenshrike]

Well there's your problem, you have to use all of a Ubuntu install to have it work properly. Using only some of the install is just asking for trouble.

Re:Expected

[TaoPhoenix]

"I don't understand how to clock on something". :)

Re:Expected

[bb5ch39t]

AT&T sure doesn't. I even have a Mac in addition to my Linux boxes. They don't support anything other than current Windows (XP or later) for any diagnostics. This, when my DSL modem was the actual problem. Oh, and they don't support my Netgear VPN router as the box connected to the DSL line. Totally blew their minds. "What's a router?"

Re:Expected

[Petaris]

However this laptop would have ,presumably, come from Dell with the wireless and networking setup already. Even given that its Dell, I would doubt they would sell a laptop with Ubuntu on it if not all the hardware supported it. (Short of a biometric fingerprint reader or something).

Re:Expected

[subsoniq]

For all of you who are calling this girl "stupid, "moron", or "idiot", let me ask you a question. How many of you know how to change the brake pads on your car? How many can rebuild your carburetor, or even do something as simple as change your oil? I'm going to guess that not very many of you can do any of these things, and yet cars have been around a lot longer than computers, and in the west are about as ubiquitous as telephones and television sets.

This girl isn't stupid because she doesn't know how to configure Linux to connect to the Internet through her ISP, or find an alternative to MS Office that can write a Word doc compatible file her professor can use, it's simply a matter of her not having the opportunity, or taken the time, to learn about something like the principles of operating systems and computers in general. Just like most of you have never learned how to do something as simple as change the oil in your car.

Re:Expected

[JasterBobaMereel]

Most people are unaware what operating system they have... or even what one is ....

When I ask most people what operating system they are using a typical answer is "Word" or "Internet Explorer" since that's what they spend most of their time running ...

Her internet connection would probably have "just worked" if she had tried it, the CD is not required for Windows either ...

The documents would have opened in OpenOffice if she had had it installed ... ... methinks she did not try very hard, Grandmothers and small children can do this but not her?

Re:Expected

[anarxia]

I get lots of calls for Windows-related issues, very few for Mac OSX and nearly zero for Linux. This is definite proof that linux has less issues than OS X and far fewer than Windows. Discussion closed!

Re:Expected

[ravenshrike]

Or she could have dropped by the local geek habitat and asked the tech monkeys to fix it. Of course, then she might get knowledge flung at her.

Re:Expected

[bb5ch39t]

Nay, not skip classes. She is skipping a couple of semesters. Which will likely result in her not getting a degree. Which will likely result in her being forced to accept a lower paying job. All of which is the fault of Dell, Canonical, and Linus Torvalds. A lawsuit for damages is likely in the works.

Re:Expected

[morgauo]

And that is the problem Linux faces on the desktop.

Just about every argument I've read in the last 7 years or more against Linux being ready on the Desktop has revolved around "this piece of hardware is difficult to get working" or "I need X application because that's what my work, school, etc... uses".

First off, when a hardware vendor supports Linux either by writing the driver themselves or better yet by releasing enough info to allow the community to do so it is very rarely difficult to install. In fact, being experienced in both Windows and Linux I would say for supported hardware Linux is EASIER. An example, I recently upgraded my video card. Both new and old were nVidia. Know what I had to do in the software? NOTHING!! The nVidia driver supports all nVidia cards and setup is pretty much the same. I just pulled the old one out and put the new one in. In Windows I would have had to install a driver. Not the worlds most difficult task but... one more step than in Linux.

The problem is a chicken & egg problem. Linux will not be a mainstream desktop OS w/o the hardware support, it will not get the hardware support w/o being a mainstream desktop OS.

Then the software. Using Wine might still be a little much to ask of someone whith no inherent interest in computers, just a desire to do his/her homework. (To be fair it really isn't that hard though if you have even a little interest in learning) So, only considering apps that run natively in Linux is there really that large a percentage of people whom need something which isn't available in Linux?

Take MSOffice which seems to come up again and again as a "necessity". People argue endlessly over wether or not OpenOffice is full featured in comparison to MSOffice. Personally I have no idea. I rarely use an office suite beyond writing a simple letter or maybe typing up a list in a spreadsheet. I do know that both office suites have way more features than I will ever use. For that matter, so does KOffice, AbiWord/Gnumeric and I'm sure many others. Am I really so alone in this?

I can't believe more than 10% of MSOffice users use any more of the features than that. The only other app I hear about regularly... Adobe Photoshop. How many fingers do you need to count the number of people you know whom use Photoshop? And beyond the features found in Gimp? No, your answer doesn't count if you work in a large graphics shop. Most computer users don't.

So, what if the 90% whom could switch did so? Well, that would have to tip the scales enough to get the hardware vendors to support Linux better and proprietary software released w/ Linux versions (if you really need it).

I realize that untill this happens the majority of people have no real motivation to make it happen. This isn't an issue of Linux not being ready though, it's just momentum. Still, I can't believe that one company, which has only been around for one generation will dominate computers (which increasingly dominate society) so thouroughly as Microsoft currently does forever. But what will it take?

Re:Expected

[moronoxyd]

Well, just last week it took me all of 5 minutes to set up 3G wireless on my notebook using the current Ubuntu 8.10.
The network manager supports 3G now, all you have to do is select your provider.
Yes, Ubuntu hast a list of settings needed for all of the major wireless providers around the globe.

(Ok, the kernel probably doesn't support all cards.)

Re:Expected

[Petaris]

"The only reason to ever look for an alternative is when it DOESN'T work."

Or when its too expensive.

But I would guess that her college, like many others, have super cheap offers of MS products. I know the tech school I attended did. Office was $25 and Windows was $35 when I was there. I bought the newest versions to play with but even at that time I was running Linux. :)

Re:Expected

[bb5ch39t]

The answer to the Verizon situation is to call up customer support and get the PPP username and password and enter it into your router manually.

Riiggghhhtttt! What's a router? (yes, I know what a router is. The lady probably doesn't have one. Most Windows users seem to connect their machine directly to their ISP's hardware (modem)).

Re:Expected

[hey!]

Yes, and if there's a problem getting the sound card configured or with the wifi drivers, he's got Dad for tech support.

I've been using Unix since v7. The first Linux I ever used was Debian 0.93, downloaded over a 28.8KBaud modem to run on on a 386 box. I even got freakin' X running on the thing, which in those days was about as easy and fun as memorizing patterns of monkey shit thrown against the cage wall. Things are a hell of a lot easier these days, but I wouldn't say that getting things running is always easy. I just bought a laptop with the PM45 chipset and Radeon HD 3650 GPU, and the Debian 8.10 64 bit installer barfed on the video card, even with the vga=771 kernel arguments. I even freakin' know what "vga=771" means, which I'm reasnonably sure represents the fruit of time wasted.

In any case Debian 8.10 is reported to work less than perfectly on my hardware, but OpenSUSE 11.1 does. Except that the OpenSUSE 11.1 installer hangs on grub. Fortunately, it's a regular X11 session, so I could Alt-F1 and complete the installation by hand using the command line. After booting, no sound in KDE, but the kernel's fine; I can tell because the 64 bit flash plugin (installed by hand) plays sound fine, but KDE can't. Well, it turns out that OpenSUSE has just migragred to pulseaudio, and they've got integration problems between KDE4 and pulse. You know, that old story.

It's OK, I can handle it. I couldn't fix these kinds of thigns with with Windows, because the simplicity of Windows is a kind of brittle facade; the complexity is papered over, and if you the facade doesn't work, you're on your own because the party line is that the facade is all you'll ever need.

On the other hand, if I were using Windows, I wouldn't have to fix most of these really basic problems. Which is not to say that Windows is better. Support for Windows is a vast and shallow lake. You can get help with easy things anywhere. Support for Linux is like the same area as a dry plain dotted with very deep wells. You have to do some trudging over hot sand, but when you find what you need it is in abundance.

Now of course, we're talking preinstallation here, but the same dichotomy applies to all facets of using the operating system. If you need help with easy things, it's easy to find just about anyplace you look, but it can't help you much. With Linux, unless you happen to live next to a well of technical support, you have to trudge quite a bit before you can get help, but when you do that help will be much more versatile.

This person just wants to do, simple, simple things. Connect to the school network. Write papers that the professors can read. The problem is for a lot of adults going back to school is that they don't have the financial backing of parents; they've got to swing school and work at the same time, and it's not easy. So telling her she's got to put some sweat equity into figuring things out on her own is bullshit. It's not that it wouldn't be a good thing for her to do this, but there are such things as opportunity costs.

What she needs is ubiquitous, but shallow help.

Or she needs somebody to step up to the plate and help her.

Re:Expected

[mr micawber]

It's that fucking CD they pass out. ATT gave me one years ago, I was one of the first adopters of DSL in my area. If I had just set my router, which I eventually figured out, I would have been fine. But customer support at ATT kept insisting that they didn't support Linux. I actually had to go to the library to figure out how to get it working. I was new to Linux, and the distros back then (7-8 yrs ago) were much less polished. Even though I consider myself pretty smart, it took quite a while and a lot of work to get online.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

She either didn't pay close enough attention, or did not understand enough about computers to know the difference.

Or Dell didn't make it clear enough. This is a swindle.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes but sometimes it is hard for someone to install drivers that Do Not Know what they are doing so when it come to that the TSR (technical support Representative failed) It is actually the Techs fault if we can call him that :P

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean like in this case where MS office .....didn't work........ And there are many reasons to look for alternatives. Price being the main one. What about functionality?

Re:Expected

[sarhjinian]

Fair comment, actually.

The worst thing you can do for someone is give them a new computer. I've worked in very large shops (~2500-3000 desktop deployments per year), and fielded questions from small ones as well as from individual users. People get used to the methods their computer presents them (their files are *here*, their Word program is *there*, they get on the internet *this way*). Give them a new computer, any computer, even if it's the same OS, and they're hosed.

Where are their shortcuts? How do they get to the "H:" drive? What about the TPR form (that was sitting in a message, in Outlook, that they kept opening whenever they needed a new copy). I don't think IT people can really appreciate how the secretaries, order takers and commerce students of the world function. It's not necessarily a Linux thing (though Linux raises the barrier height more than a little). After working with some of these people for a while, I have no idea how they cope when they rent a car that's different from their own, get a new toaster, or buy a new light switch: the least little difference completely flummoxes them. Stupid might be a harsh, if not an entirely inaccurate term

This woman is probably in this category: given a difference---any difference---and she promptly "shuts down" and goes into silent panic mode. The opportune question is why it took so long for her to admit to the problem. I've taken calls from managers screaming because some order-desk flunkie hasn't been able to work since her PC was replaced three weeks ago, and now she can't find her RMA form shortcut and everything's "all different" (for the record: XP to XP, Office 2003 to Office 2003, no changes save the hardware and a new profile upon login, all documents saved to Sharepoint and/or fileservers, mailbox in Exchange). Why she didn't call three weeks ago was the point I raised, and the one I never got an answer for.

There's a certain willfull stupidity in the general populace. They don't know computers, they can't know them, it's an evil black box and they'll find anything possible to complain about. They can be young, old, male, female, of any race, creed to culture: they're bound together by their raw, unadulterated pigheadedness.

At some point, the paradigm is going to have to change. I don't know how it will change: Terminal Server-like remote desktops with a Time Machine like backup strategy available through an always-on internet connection? Web desktops? Special-purpose devices in lieu of general-purpose PCs?

Re:Expected

[morgauo]

Bah!

It's not Linux/Windows. It's Verizon and a ton of other companies.

I have Verizon. I tether my phone to my laptop. What did it take? I added the "phone#", username, and password in KPPP plus selected the USB serial port (my phone). It's pretty much the exact same process people have been doing to get dialup in Windows since Dial Up Networking in Windows95. And no, it isn't really any different in Windows today.

The issue... Verizon documentation makes it sound like you need Windows. Sadly, this is common with many ISPs, hardware vendors, etc...

Still, it has nothing to do with ease of use of Linux or Windows.

Re:Expected

[mr micawber]

It's possible and we (Linux geeks) should aspire to making it better and easier to use than Windows. Now if we could get corporations like Verizon, ATT, Time Warner and Cox to offer the very simple information the noobs need, we would be that much closer.

Re:Expected

[sketerpot]

If plain PDF files are acceptable, then why not just use "File->Export as PDF" in OpenOffice? I've gone that route a few times, and it worked just fine.

Re:Expected

[bb5ch39t]

I agree. The only stupid thing she really did was allow herself to be fast talked by Dell support into not insisting that she be given/upgraded to a Windows laptop.

Re:Expected

[mr micawber]

Airheads should be able to get online, seriously. I place the blame squarely on Verizon and Dell. Verizon for encouraging people that they need their stupid fucking CD and Dell for brushing her off. We Slashdotters know that Linux is powerful enough for Wizards. It is very close to being easy enough for Airheads. It can be both.

Re:Expected

[morgauo]

Lulfas - "This is the sort of thing that is going to happen when you give a normal person *nix. Sadly, in this case, Windows "just works."

Someone mod this back up!!

Personally I disagree with Lulfas' statement but it is a very common sentiment. How can it be addressed if it is burried?!?!

If moderating is used to push one's own opinions and keep others down then Slashdot becomes Digg!!!! Let's not go there!

Re:Expected

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Run gnome-ppp

How is she to know this? Where can she go without an Internet connection to learn it?

Username

Who gives her this username? How is she supposed to know what it is?

Password

Again - who gives it to her? How does she know about it? The same comment for the remaining values, too. This person has no way of knowing any of these things. Even if she did have Internet access, the types of questions you see posted everywhere show that it's quite likely she would not know how to effectively search for the answers.

That's all there is to it.

Spoken like somebody in the small minority of PC users who are not incapacitated when they come across a situation they don't understand.

What you and I see as "simple" may as well be a course in particle physics for her and the millions of computer users like her.

Re:Expected

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

If you're a geek, everything requires tinkering.

If you're not, very little that you encounter in your day-to-day life encounters tinkering in order to perform its basic functions - including Windows.

Re:Expected

[JoeMerchant]

News Flash: people who are not capable of using the available modes of transportation are denied access to the things that transportation connects to. (Dateline: 3500BC)

If she's expecting to get to school across a river using a boat and she doesn't know how to sail, she shouldn't buy a sailboat.

If she's expecting to drive to school using a car and she can't drive stick, don't buy a stick.

If she's going to be touring foreign countries and expects to be asking directions along the way, make sure she can speak enough of the local languages.

So, she's expecting to get to school on the internet and she doesn't know how to use her computer???

All of these scenarios are solvable by acquiring the needed skill, or choosing a different mode of transport that you already know how to use.

In today's society, I'd say that Ubuntu is a rare language, but... if you or your local friends are literate enough to get your Ubuntu system onto the internet, there you should be able to find all the help you need> It might require a few more hours of work than Windows, or a few less, depending on the problems you encounter and your luck in finding their solutions.

Of course, if you are the problem that needs to be solved, nothing is really going to help until you learn to help yourself. I hope we're not giving college credits to people who are incapable of figuring out how to get themselves to class?

Re:Expected

[Phroggy]

What version of IE are you using, 6 or 7? It's fairly unusual to find things that work correctly in IE7 but don't work in Firefox, because when IE7 came out and everything designed for IE6 broke, most companies added support for Firefox while doing the redesign for IE7.

Have you tried spoofing your user-agent string to trick the site into thinking you're running IE? The problem might not be a software incompatibility, but just a redirect on the front-end that denies you access if it doesn't like your user-agent string. If that's the case, it's a cheap and easy fix to relax the restriction on the redirect, and it's possible they might be persuaded to do so, if you can figure out how to get the message to the appropriate person. Of course, if spoofing the user-agent string doesn't work, then the only solution is to spend a lot of money to upgrade the software, and nothing you can say will make that happen any faster.

OOo may not get the formatting exactly right, but the documents it saves should at least look somewhat reasonable when opened in MS Office, unless you're doing some tricky formatting. Are these basic papers and reports, or something more complicated like brochures (using Word as if it were a DTP app)? Since you obviously have both programs available, what do you see if you create a document in OOo and save it in Word format, then open it in Word? If you can identify a specific problem, can you create a test case and submit it to OOo?

Obviously these suggestions are intended for a Slashdotter, not for a member of the general population. ;-)

Re:Expected

[KnightNavro]

If you're so daft that you can't even figure out to clock on Applications->Office->Word processor, then you should consider an elementary computer class, with no matter which OS.

By doing that, you're assuming all programs with a similar purpose are compatible, but they aren't. It wasn't that long ago that OO added support for the Office 2007 formatted files. If emacs were listed in the same menu as OO Writer, would she be able to do the same thing? If your professor says they want the homework submitted in Word Perfect format, would she be able to do the same thing? (What, you haven't had a professor who's a bit of an anachronism?)

If you don't already know OO is compatible with Word, there's no reason to assume it is.

Re:Expected

[ryanov]

It's actually a lot harder to do under Windows, as well. I think you need drivers or some such.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Honestly, just to satisfy my own curiosity one day last year, I looked up the Geek Squad website just to get an idea of how little value you get for the money and exactly how little brain power actually shows up at your door in a Volkswagen. Calling their 800 number was actually entertaining... to a degree. When I asked them what they would charge to install Ubuntu Linux on my machine here at home I was told:

"Yeah man! We can do that, I think... but we'll have to charge you for installing a suite ($149.00), instead of an OS install. ($129.00)"

When I asked him why, I was told:

"Because Linux only runs on Macs."

I am not sure it's her fault, entirely. The Law of Averages usually indicates that spending a grueling hour or two on a customer help line means you get someone dumber than yourself who can barely read a script, but it's just as likely in this case that customer service was dumber than HER, as well.

Re:Expected

[sketerpot]

I think this is more of a generation gap thing. She knows how to do a few things, like open Microsoft Word and type in it, but when faced with anything unusual she loses the willingness to read the words on the screen or get help from tech support or Google. Someone who can find their way around a computer would have had much less trouble.

Re:Expected

[mr micawber]

Since Verizon are assholes like many other corporate giants who pass out useless CD's like candy, perhaps there could be a little more noob friendly way to get on the Internet. One that might take the form of a troubleshooting wizard in Ubuntu to point out that the user might just need to set a couple things in the router for it all to work. I think an animated penguin saying "It looks like you're trying to access the internet" would be a little much , but something that could help a noob along.

Re:Expected

[Hairy Heron]

I'm a software engineer.

That doesn't seem to mean much anymore these days. If you're too dumb to get Ubuntu working, I can't imagine the disasters you chunk out and call software.

Re:Expected

[Ascagnel]

Their "application" just edits the Windows standard configuration and plops a completely useless Flash-based nagware app promoting their "security" suite. Having to deal with this on my parents' computer pisses me off. Its something their techs should know how to do without software yet don't.

Re:Expected

[Phroggy]

The same applies to different versions of Word on different computers. Your point?

Too much time is wasted on presentation in place of content. Students increasing font sizes and spacing to try to make a 2-page text meet the 10-page requirement, for example.

We'd all be better off if scholastic submissions were all in plain text, with carriage returns between paragraphs.

Except that school is supposed to prepare you for life in the real world, and in the real world, presentation is far more important than you're giving it credit for. Is this a good thing? Of course not, but you won't get far if you deny this reality.

(To avoid the problem of a 2-page paper being stretched into a 10-page paper, many instructors will specify the font and margin settings they want to see, e.g. 14pt Times New Roman double-spaced with Word's default 1.25" left/right and 1" top/bottom margins. For something without any complex formatting, OOo should have no problem exporting this.)

Re:Expected

[JWSmythe]

    I've run into this a lot. When someone calls me and says a tech is coming out to help them get set up, I tell them to refuse to let them put the CD in. There's no need.

    I've been to many places, with many providers, usually with my laptop, waiting for them to come install. One place blatantly refused to install without a Windows computer, so I dug up an old Win95 workstation, and they were satisfied. A few times, they've had me sign a small waiver saying that I refused the install CD.

    For anything but dialup accounts, there's nothing to it. Most OS's come set up for DHCP on the ethernet. Plug the cable in, turn it on, and you're done. The CD is usually extra "assistance" software. I've never gotten down and dirty enough to dissect their software, but I'd be pretty sure there is a good bit of spyware in it. I know one vendor provided a CD that included something resembling GoToMyPC. Really, do you want to open up your computer so anyone at the ISP can log into your computer? The only reason to ask the ISP for help is when the connection doesn't work, at which time that is a moot point.

    This lady didn't ask for a non-Windows machine though. She may have unintentionally ordered the wrong thing. Mistakes happen, they should have let her return it for what she wanted.

    If (IF) she wanted to keep Linux, they should have told her where to click for Abiword/OpenOffice, and that it was the equivalent of MSWord, except totally free.

    If (IF) she wanted to keep Linux, Verizon should have been able to tell her that "all you do is plug the cable in", rather than saying it was impossible on anything but Windows.

    So, lots of mistakes made a news story. She doesn't know Linux yet, but hopefully she'll be more interested in learning in the future. The reps at Dell and Verizon should have been more cooperative. If they had been, and knew what they were doing, then this wouldn't have been a story at all. That is, unless it turns out that it's actually something choreographed by Microsoft, trying to lock down their market share.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

For all of you who are calling this girl "stupid, "moron", or "idiot", let me ask you a question. How many of you know how to change the brake pads on your car? How many can rebuild your carburetor, or even do something as simple as change your oil? I'm going to guess that not very many of you can do any of these things, and yet cars have been around a lot longer than computers, and in the west are about as ubiquitous as telephones and television sets.

I think a more apt car analogy would be that of changing a tire. It's something which you should know how to do to go about using a car, since there's a chance you'll get stuck somewhere and need to do that without someone there to help you.

One of the reasons we keep running into stories like this is that there is no required *anything* which would be analogous to a drivers' license for a computer, required to operate a computer. Even though, a few posters earlier on pointed out that Verizon's crap setup was mostly to blame for this in assuming that everyone would use some form of Windows.

I remember DSL setup to be pretty easy, but I guess it's a little different if you've never done it before.

That being said, I remember a Windows user causing horrific issues because she randomly clicked through antivirus alert boxes, eventually wiping out an entire network share, which had to be rebuilt from backups. She had her machine taken away, and ended up using a typewriter to do most of her work for the next few months. Never could figure out why they didn't fire her.

Re:Expected

[waltarro85]

So basically she is in the same class of moron who demands a new car since their old broke down because the couldn't be bothered to change the oil, obviously too complicated.

Re:Expected

[Phroggy]

Really, without the internet, what good is a computer?

Do you have any idea how ridiculous that would have sounded 15 years ago? Amazing how far we've come. :-)

Re:Expected

[arugulatarsus]

I'm sorry you got a flamebait tag. I understand your post. As an experiment I put my (grand)parents on my rig for an hour every now and then.

The results in general are: linux is very pretty, but I get more work done in XP with office 2003. I will not change for office 2007/vista or ubuntu(ubunto?) and openoffice.

That being said, they both use winxp + firefox + thunderbird + office 2003. My dad even uses openoffice now because office 2007 moved everything around and he wanted an editor that just lets him type up the text.

My mom finds ubuntu prettier than vista. It does have beautiful themes. My dad likes openoffice. I count this as a victory for FOSS.

I find /. has issues if the system is not 100% FOSS in general. We should be glad just to show people it exists and it works. If they still insist on paying the 150$ to ms for vista/xp licenses, it's OK, it's less money than the training necessary to feel 100% comfortable in Linux. I'm not a fan of panicked calls at 2:00 am saying "the etc ate my permissions".

Re:Expected

[jbolden]

I don't think they want to use Linux because they want to create the software support from the distribution.

I.E. Asus includes Limpus use the Limupus repository
Dell Mini includes Canonical Remix use the Remix repository
Emtec includes Mandriva Mini use the Mandriva Mini repository

etc... Which is actually the Linux model of software distribution.

Application writer -> make version of source code -> meta distribution package -> distribution package -> distribution binary -> installed on user machine

Re:Expected

[Chabo]

You're using KDE4, which last I heard was still in beta. Couldn't you reasonably compare that to running Windows 7 on a production system right now?

Re:Expected

[jimicus]

Seriously, she should take some classes on critical thinking or something...

I seriously doubt she possesses the faculty to recognise that need in herself.

Re:Expected

[budgenator]

If the Dell support rep could have just given her two or three helpful tips, she could have probably been fine. OpenOffice is a perfect replacement for Word. I don't know about her Verizon situation, but I'm sure there is a workaround for that.

like
1. plug network cable into computer, change Firefoxes' user-agent to IE6 on Vista, enjoy
2. write paper in OO save as .doc file, enjoy

verizon doesn't have linux specific help guides like comcast does so she might have to get someone computer-fluent to set up real Email or she could easily use verison's webbmail interface.

Abbie Schubert, I bet she'll never get a job that involves computer-literacy or critical thinking now!

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

She is an unfit mother. Her children will be placed in the custody of Carl's Jr.

Re:Expected

[Gaffers]

It's more likely that she called tech support and they explained to her that it would cost ~$200 for a copy of Windows. She probably got Ubuntu in the first place by clicking every button that knocked the price down. Obviously her words need to be taken with a grain or two of salt.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

...until I got my hands on Hardy.

This sounds like a nickname for something else.

Re:Expected

[budgenator]

Plug in the network cable, let DHCP take care of everything, WHOA dude that's hard.

Re:Expected

[Scoth]

I actually ran into something amusing relating to rental cars. I went to lunch with a coworker of mine who had a rental while some accident damage was fixed. It was starting to rain, and she didn't turn on the wipers. I finally asked and she said something like "Oh, they won't stay on" and demonstrated by pushing down on the wiper bar. Sure enough, the bar popped right back up and they only did one wipe. I reached over, pushed the bar *up*, and they worked like you'd expect. Apparently the bar worked opposite her car, and it didn't even occur to her to try the other way. (Note I called her a coworker, and not a friend. She's actually pretty annoying)

Re:Expected

[JWSmythe]

    I have a Verizon FiOS network, with 128 IP's, that we're running a small hosting business on. There's a small problem on the line, so I asked for a field tech to come out and replace their outside box. No big deal, just come, swap out your slightly defective unit for a good one, so it doesn't become a bigger problem in the near future. We're getting the occasional CRC error on the uplink, and have already swapped the equipment on our side.

    They asked what OS I was running. "Well, about a dozen Linux machines, and a half dozen Win2k/S2k3 machines."

    They asked "So are you running XP or Vista"

    I had to start over. "This is a business FiOS line. We're using it for a small hosting business. We have many machines. We have 128 IP's from you because of that. "

    Then they asked me which of their routers we are using. {sigh} Their routers are crap. They provide us with a Cat5 ethernet cable from their demarc outside. That goes directly into a Cisco Catalyst 2924XL-EN.

    "Oh, if you're not using our router, we can't help you. Maybe you can call Cisco."

    I blew up inside, but very politely told them that I am a Cisco Certified Network Administrator, and I have worked as a higher level Cisco Engineer for the past 12 years. I'll be more than happy to help you with this matter. By evaluating the errors, there appears to be a failure on your side of the link, which would be your demarc on the wall. If you could be kind enough to have a field technician come out and swap the demarc, I would be very happy.

    That got me put on hold. He came back, apparently with one of their "network engineers" on chat with him. He'd type what I said, wait for a response, and then read it back to me. Over the next half hour, the engineer finally told me that it was obviously a routing issue somewhere on the Internet, and I should run traceroutes to see where it is, but it's definitely outside of Verizon's control. I told the CSR that was still on the phone with me echoing the "network engineer" responses, that the "network engineer" was a complete blithering idiot, who wouldn't be able to diagnose a network problem to save his life. There's no way in hell that a CRC errror comes from anywhere but either the two endpoints of a cable, one of which is my switch, and the other their demarc, or the cable in between. They made it clear that the cable is property of Verizon, or I'd swap that too.

    Ahhh, now I'm worked up. I'm going to start calling them again. It's been several weeks of trying to get them to address this. I'm tempted to hit it with a stun gun, just so it'll be completely down, and they can come out and fix it. Too bad I don't own a stun gun. :)

Re:Expected

[Il128]

The problem is, as I've been flamed for before, Linux is still nowhere near the point where a non-techie will consider adopting it. Although it's much better than it was even a few years ago, it's still not an idiot-friendly OS where things 'just work', compared to what people are used to.

I should scroll down and read all the responses because I'd bet money there are 20 comments just like the one I'm about to make.

While I was at work this last Christmas break my twelve-year-old daughter found my old 800 PIII with 512m of RAM and a ten gig hard drive in the basement. She took it and an old 15 inch CRT monitor up to her room. From the time I left for work (730) to the time I got home (1800) She had formated the HD, installed Ubuntu, got the old Linksys B USB wireless up and running and was surfing the net when I walked in the door...

My wife demanded I remove the computer because my daughter hadn't asked if she could have a computer with Internet in her room...

Anyone know of a good netnanny for Linux?

Oh and the woman suing, is obviously dumb or lazy.

Re:Expected

[virtue3]

Actually, I ordered a very nice vostro from dell with a spiffy webcam. And windows XP.

The best part of the laptop? It had a very fancy phased array microphone setup. Even better, the line from it went too close to the CPU and was unshielded, so it rendered it useless as it would provide more static and line noise than anyone could hear from my actual voice on the other end.

I mean seriously, if they can't even figure out a MAJOR hardware defect, how the hell do you expect them to even start getting their drivers right on linux?

Re:Expected

[jefu]

I haven't used Verizon for this for a while, but they did steadfastly refuse to admit that there was any such thing as a non-Windows OS (I suspect they'll support Macs now) but all I had to do was plug in a router and plug my computer in to that and it all worked very nicely. The CD they sent me ended up in pieces (I was trying to cut CDs apart to use them for something at the time).

Re:Expected

[virtue3]

San Francisco City College is $20 a credit. *shrug* they have a lot of interesting classes to take there :D

Re:Expected

[thtrgremlin]

Windows is adopted well enough that it is pretty easy in an environment with computers to find other people that have used windows before and can help. I remember decades ago when Windows 3.1 was the hot new thing. I didn't understand what the big deal was, classes on what a mouse was, and how to start applications like word. You would think that this basic knowledge would be adaptable, but it sadly that isn't the way people look at computers. I work at a school, and we had a 2 hour seminar to show people how to use the new photocopy machine. It was pretty fancy and could do cool stuff, but that wasn't what the class taught. It just had the very basics. I didn't get the trouble. We had other copy machines that worked in, what I thought, worked in the same basic way. Evidently not everyone saw it like that.

Linux is fine. People that are very productive on their windows machine and have explored the system past the basics I don't think would have any difficulty in learning a major distribution in a short period of time to get the basics down. But it does take effort. It is different and it will take the same kind of effort it took the first time when people were introduced to windows 3.1 or 95.

But for anyone that insists "But I don't want to learn anything, I just want to use it", get a mac. The important and good software is being ported to mac, and more companies are beginning to understand that it is possible to approach a project from a cross platform approach such that software never need be ported. This will mean hopefully soon, software will pretty much be platform independent, or that adding a platform will require negligible effort. With this in mind, the people that want to be able to mimic other people in what they do with the computer, get a mac. If you want a tool to express yourself without limits, get Linux. Between the two, where does that really leave Windows? I say "good riddance to bad rubbish".

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with everything you said except:

Ubuntu can't network out-of-the-box, and needs a Verizon CD? Whoa!

I imagine that Ubuntu is probably just fine with the networking part, but I bet the Verizon CD probably also configures the windows client to connect to the Verizon mail server, and sets the default home page for IE to Verizon's portal.

It MIGHT do other things, but those are the only ones I'm willing to bet on for sure, mostly because whenever I get one of these CDs from an ISP, Verizon, TimeWarner, etc., I laugh, and toss them in the filing cabinet "in case I need them" (which I never have).

Also, most tech support calls will probably start by getting you to run their diagnostics, which are conveniently installed from the CD.
I know TimeWarner tries this nonsense and only persistence and getting escalated to higher support person will help.
"What? You machine won't run the CD? I'm sorry, we can not help you." is the usual response.

Re:Expected

[JTorres176]

You don't need to actually install Verizon's software to access teh intrawebz, you can create a PPPoE connection by playing with some config files and blacklisting a few things... but not what your average housewife is going to be able to do.

I'd partially blame Verizon for not providing her with the service she paid them for, but that's just me. We just use our own router with the local cable co instead, it's much easier to config for my linux, my gf's windows, and my kid's mac.

Re:Expected

[Aram Fingal]

Actually, this is really the main point. No computer system is foolproof. The real story should be that this school is offering online classes, which have technical requirements, and yet they are not providing enough support to get someone through the job of connecting to the internet or even using a word processor. TFA says she missed two semesters because of this. The school and their desktop support, help desk or whatever should have resolved this issue one way or another within a week or two at worst. It could be a failure on the part of the professor or other school officials for not sending her to get tech support but this is not really Dell or Ubuntu's fault.

Re:Expected

[sckeener]

I'm sure we've all been in that situation and I know I lied and told the tech exactly what he wanted to hear....

Admittedly the factual information was correct, just not the method or screens.

Re:Expected

[default luser]

They are blaming her for not using OO for general papers and they are blaming her for not doing any kind of troubleshooting, like going to verizon.com and looking up how to do a non windows install (which is clearly documented).

The average Slashdotter assumes far too much.

Did you ever consider that this might be her first computer purchase? Did you ever consider that she might not HAVE another configured machine to connect to the internet and do said research? I know everyone on Slashdot has seventeen computers hooked to their IPSec-protected WAN, but most people who buy from Dell have ONE computer, and have no clue how to configure it (the very reason Verizon created their Windows setup CD).

Further: the woman is taking a course to figure out how to use office. OFFICE! If that doesn't scream computer novice, I don't know what does. And a computer novicewill have no idea what his/her options are as far as office applications go, because they have no idea what they want from their office app to begin with! And even when you know what you want in an office program, it's still hard to get over that initial fear: my mother worked for years as an office manager, using Word Perfect 5.1, and later Microsoft Word, and I STILL had to reassure her that Open Office was just as capable when she needed a new word processor program last year.

The problem is, this information is not made clear by anyone in the process: Dell or the Ubuntu designers should provide tutorials that AUTOMATICALLLY RUN unless you tell them not to, and those tutorials should lay-out the basic steps to create an office document, and the steps required to connect to the internet. No more confusion!

Re:Expected

[commodore64_love]

>>>Dell, if someone calls and says they got a Ubuntu computer by mistake, just have them ship it back. It isn't worth it.

Since the economy dropped from 13,000 to 7500, I've noticed lots of corporations are being less friendly. They are trying to cut costs, but in that process they are refusing to honor warranties. Case in point: A colleague of mine bought a DTVpal DVR from Dish Network, and it experienced random power outages. Dish promised to send a new boxc, but in reality they simply deactivate his box and left him with a brick. When he calls the manager who promised a new box, she simply hangs up on him. Apparently Dish decided its cheaper to sell junk & leave the customer with a brick rather than honor warranty.

And now it appears Dell is taking a similar tactic, leaving a customer with a Linux box that she doesn't know how to use, rather than help her get a Windows upgrade.

As for compatibility:

Being a longterm user of Commodore and Amiga computers, I can understand the hassle of not being able to produce documents other people can read. Amiga WordPerfect is not readable by anyone else (Word reads the file, but displays a mess), and of course Verizon DSL does not support Amiga OS and neither does Netscape ISP.

In fact even on my PC, Verizon DSL does not even support Firefox. At every bootup it keeps telling me that I am using an incompatible browser, which I ignore but is still annoying. So I can easily understand this woman's frustration with Linux Ubuntu and trying to get Verizon/Word to work properly.

Re:Expected

[adamanthaea]

Yes, the latest Verizon CD supposedly works in OS X. I say supposedly because I couldn't get the whole setup to work in OS X and had to boot my MacBook into XP to get it to work and still can't get the software (some of which I do want--speed and line quality testing mostly) to install in OS X, but Verizon did place an .app on that CD. Of course, now that the connection is made with Verizon and the home wireless network set up, I don't need that CD to work. I'm currently using it as a coaster. Really, as I just moved and am still unpacking and haven't found the coasters yet.

Re:Expected

[slprice]

The reason I will never buy a Dell again is that they refused to give me support because I installed a different operating system than shipped with the system. It took months of regular calls to support before convincing them it was a hardware issue.

Re:Expected

[JWSmythe]

    hehe.

    I've never had to support thousands of desks, but I've had enough to hate supporting desktops. :)

    I've actually been annoyed to the point where I 3 links on the desktop.

    Firefox - labeled as "INTERNET"
    Thunderbird - labeled as "EMAIL"
    OpenOffice - labeled as "WORD"

    If I never tell them that they're not using MSIE, Outlook, and MSWord, 99.9% of them never know the difference. You have to be very careful not to tell them though. As soon as they figure it out, they'll start crying that it doesn't work and they need the MS product installed. That's always funny after they've been using the free options for months without any problems. :)

    At one place, a few people started getting pissy about needing Office 2007 Professional. I let them rant, and I didn't even get pissy back. I just told them what the current pricing was, and that they can either pick it up on their way to work in the morning, or explain to their manager why they needed something that expensive, when everyone else was using the free option. For some reason, they never came to me with their nice fresh new Office 2k7 pro CD to install for them. :)

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Literally anyone who had even a slight clue about her predicament would have been able to load windows on the system.

Have you tried to acquire Windows recently? Go to the store and all you'll find are upgrades which require a pre-existing Windows install. The best that the average person is likely to get their hands on is an OEM recovery disk which _might_ be sent along with a computer that came with Windows installed, which doesn't apply to this case. If the average user did manage to find a full copy of Windows, it would cost close to the price of the computer.

Re:Expected

[Ex-Linux-Fanboy]

The woman is an airhead.

OK, let's stop right there. This is a classic advocate (should I say "fanboy") argument: Blame the victim for usability problems with {software advocated}.

If someone says they're having problems using a piece of software, telling them they're an idiot may make you feel nice and smug and keep you in your pattern of denial that {software being advocated} doesn't have any problems, but doesn't do anything to encourage other people to use {software advocated}.

Linux has serious desktop usability problems. This is why almost no one buys Dells with Linux pre-installed. These issues will not get resolved by telling people who have issues with Linux that they are airheads.

Re:Expected

[HermMunster]

She has friends. Family members have computers. Libraries provide internet access for doing research. Computer repair stores exist. Internet Cafes are another choice.

Her choices are far from limited.

Re:Expected

[Aram Fingal]

At some point, the paradigm is going to have to change. I don't know how it will change: Terminal Server-like remote desktops with a Time Machine like backup strategy available through an always-on internet connection? Web desktops? Special-purpose devices in lieu of general-purpose PCs?

You're on the right track with Time Machine but I think it's Apple's Migration Assistant that comes the closest to what you're talking about, at least among currently available technologies. It can move a user account, with all it's settings, from one computer to the next and keep everything exactly in place, down to the position of the icons on the desktop.

Re:Expected

[Glonoinha]

ThePhilips has a point though - all this girl had to do was find a nice computer tech and start dating him, turn him into her boyfriend and her entire life would have been saved.

Heck, it doesn't even take 100% dedication from the techie - she could have shared him with a half dozen of her other hot girlfriends, each of them spend one day out of the week with him and they could have all been saved.

Damn, someone needs to make some computer tech saves hot blond chicks porn. This would totally work.

Re:Expected

[markowen58]

Ubuntu IMO is there. if installed and configured. No average joe could install it still but I installed it on my mates laptop that thanks to surfing for too much porn finally fell over having so much malware installed slowing it down it ground to a halt.

at the moment he's sending CV's and cover letters out left right and centre in a word format, his canon ixus camera connects just fine and uploads without a hitch, his iPod 'just works' and thanks to the malware he thinks it runs 'way' faster... how much faster is obviously relative.

his email is hotmail, but then he's an 'average' user and uses internet based apps like that without a hitch on firefox.

quite frankly i'm very impressed with ubuntu having previously used it to get mythtv working to create a HTPC (like with every project took 12months of my life and once completed never used it... i'm sure you can relate) that experience was akin to head butting a wall for a year.

but after this experience I would happily install Ubuntu on my 'average user' friends pc's. It's akin to the same experience that people are getting on linux based netbooks, they only want a small laptop that works for very little.

all it will take is a decent sized OEM to go hole hog and install Linux, savings from windows tax passed on, backed up by a similar amount of support that they throw at windows and they will break MS's grip... it's why MS are shitting a brick about linux on the netbook's as they know those users will realise they don't need Windows, linux will also be associated as 'cheap' as its coming from the bottom (cheap netbooks up...).

Re:Expected

[commodore64_love]

>>>Poster is not sure exactly what the situation is with Verizon, but is sure there is a work around.

Is that like the Bible-thumpers who don't know how the world came to be, but are "sure" there's a superbeing involved? Sounds more like FAITH, not rationality.

If the poster does not know if there's a workaround, then the only thing he can be absolutely "sure" about is this: He doesn't know.

Re:Expected

[berashith]

Are you admitting that 8 year olds are smarter than software engineers, or only this 8 year old, or only this software engineer?

Re:Expected

[Mab_Mass]

I agree whole-heartedly. She made a simple, honest mistake that could be made by anyone with little knowledge of computers.

The real trouble, that I don't expect hear voiced very well on slashdot, is the tech support person at Dell. When she called to try to switch her OS, that person had no business talking her out of it. She was not open to trying Ubuntu. She was not interested in anything other than Windows. Talking her into keeping something she didn't want was reckless and irresponsible and does more to hurt the cause of FOSS than to help it.

You want to encourage people to use Linux? Great - do so with one-on-one discussions and careful mentoring.

STOP FORCING IT ONTO PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT IT!

*ahem*

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of Linux fanboy are you? I don't care if a doctor can tell arms from legs as long as he can compile his own kernels.

Re:Expected

[commodore64_love]

>>>Verizon should have been able to tell her that "all you do is plug the cable in",

False. Verizon DSL consists of a phoneline cable, and you can't plug that directly into your computer. First it has to go to an external modem, which then converts the data to either Ethernet or USB, which means you need software to run the external modem. If that external modem software is not available for Ubuntu Linux, you're out of luck.

Re:Expected

[mdf356]

Since when does the ability to use something that someone else thought was clever or clear, but didn't document exhaustively, have anything to do with the ability to write various forms of software?

At the risk of being flamed myself, I'm a software engineer too. A good one. I suck at administering a box, because I'm not a good admin. I can manage to get things working, but usually only with the help of folks who already know all the stupid quirks or Ubuntu, nVidia, etc.

For example, it took me a few days to get my second monitor working since I wanted to use it rotated 90 degrees. The crap xorg.conf that nVidia spat out had a syntax error so I got an unusable screen (and had to have someone show me the magic key combo to get into a terminal so I could copy my backup xorg.conf back. After a bunch of google searching I finally found the error in the config file and fixed it and I now have the second monitor at 90 degree rotation. It took a few days because, frankly, I had actual productive work to do as well.

I've had problems with Evolution (doesn't seem to like the exchange server's directory), etc., etc. To me that smacks of mediocre software, if not only can't I get it working but it doesn't tell me why it's not working.

I have had similar problems with Windows, though. I typed in my wireless password wrong once and it just failed to connect. No error message. It took about an hour to figure out how to get Vista to forget it knew about that connection/password combo so I could try again.

Please don't confuse being good at using a tool with being good at making tools. That's like assuming only a good football player could be a good football coach, or only a good driver can make or design a good car.

Re:Expected

[berashith]

more than half of this comment matches my wife perfectly ( down to the hardware specs), but my son is only 20 months old. I knew the kid was quick , but didnt realize he could type already.

Re:Expected

[jbolden]

You are treating a feature like a cost saving disadvantage, removing the importance of the software repository model of distribution.

For example a lamborghini doesn't have a comment in the guide that sells

"To be able to get the acceleration this car burns through tons of gas and costs a fortune to repair. Some drivers enjoy the extra acceleration but if you really need to do anything practical you may want to consider a Ford Taurus".

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

on an OS they have no special love for.

This = win!

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem I see with your argument is you're starting from a different background than most people. Most people have no clue what a driver is. Most people know that when it's time to upgrade, you buy a new computer. While I'm not arguing that using Linux software might make more sense for some people, I'm arguing that there is no inherent value in changing. They don't gain anything by doing it. I think some people have lost sight of what changing to Linux means in deference for the fact that it just isn't Microsoft.

Re:Expected

[Directrix1]

Right, including Linux too.

Re:Expected

[b4upoo]

This girl needs to go sue herself. She admits that it was her lack of knowledge that caused her to make the purchase so she is the one who should pay!
            Maybe while she is suing herself she could find something more exciting to do with herself and share it on line with her Linux system!

Re:Expected

[tbannist]

They do, she has it, but she doesn't know how to save as Word document.

Apparently she only called Dell and not Verizon or the College for help with her problems.

Actually, I find things rarely "just work" with Microsoft software. About 66% of it works, and hopefully you never have to use the other 34%.

Re:Expected

[Lulfas]

MS Office would've worked just fine, if she has the OS she ordered. Remember, the problem was Dell sent her Ubuntu instead of Windows, causing the rest of the problems.

Re:Expected

[galoise]

then replace "Router" by (Gnome PPP / KPPP).

'nuff said.

Re:Expected

[b4upoo]

The problem is compounded when some schools insist on Windows only for on line participation. That is rarely justified.

Re:Expected

[Firethorn]

Too bad I don't own a stun gun. :)

Good excuse to buy one though.

Re:Expected

[spasm]

OO 3.x does display Word annotations correctly, and let you insert annotations that display fine in Word. Oh, and it also opens .docx.

If you use OO in any environment where you have to trade documents with Word users, definitely upgrade to 3.x if you haven't already.

Re:Expected

[KasperMeerts]

Emacs wouldn't be hidden in the "Office" menu, but more likely in the "Programming" section. And if she would open it, she would probably realize that's not what she was looking for and close it.

I mean, if she couldn't understand that she was looking for "Word processor" then I don't think she would have passed the class in the first place. And what do you think she would have done if Vista had been installed on the laptop? Vista doesn't come with an office suite. And all the buttons are in a different place than on XP. Panic, panic, panic, let's call the news? No, she would have asked the person using the brain cell in the family to "fix" it for her.

Re:Expected

[SBrach]

How could I possibly have know that?

Re:Expected

[commodore64_love]

It's not stupidity.

It's laziness. "I don't want to learn a new way of doing things on my new XP PC, so I will just not bother to try to figure it out on my own. Instead I'll complain." Using computers requires thinking, and many people have voluntarily decided to stop thinking on the day of their graduation.

Re:Expected

[hey!]

Well,the distros are supposed do all the heavy lifting for you when it comes to compatibility. Otherwise we'd all do Linux from Scratch.

KDE 4 is standard in OpenSUSE 11.1, which was released in mid December. In theory, this should mean that KDE 4 is the best tested, best integrated option for that distro. It should be the path of least resistance for any user with that distro. If the distro switches to KDE 4 and pulseaudio as defaults, then they really ought to work together by default with pretty much a click-through installation. If they don't, then they should default to alsa or KDE 3.5.

I'm posting a review soon of OpenSUSE on my blog. In a nutshell, I think it does a good job on some things, like hardware support, but it has a very shaky, bleeding edge beta-ish feel to it. This is a bit of a surprise, because when I used SUSE in the pre-Novell days, it was a very solid, no nonsense distro. If I want bleeding edge I'll download the tarballs myself, thank you very much.

I'd think that Novell would want to keep that kind of solid, no surprises user experience, that they'd want to position SUSE as a solid, reliable, no surprises business distro. Instead, it feels more like a hobbyist/enthusiast distro than something from a major software vendor. In fact I've used hobbyist distros that were more solid than OpenSUSE 11.1.

Still, with my relatively new hardware, I'm kind of screwed. I've kept the original hard disk with Vista on it, and to tell you the truth, Vista is quite pleasant to use on a machine with 2.53GHz dual core processor, 4GB of RAM, and latest and greatest chipset and mobile GPU, and 7200 RPM SATA disk. And I have to say I absolutely hated Vista on my older machine that had 2GB of RAM and 1.66GHz Core Duo. Vista was not as efficient as it could have been when it was released, but Microsoft really screwed itself by not setting the bar high enough for "Vista Ready" and "Vista Capable" certification.

Re:Expected

[PipingSnail]

The problem is, as I've been flamed for before, Linux is still nowhere near the point where a non-techie will consider adopting it.

I disagree, its more than ready.

My father is 70 and self-taught in terms of computers. He has a non-tech background, he worked for Customs and Excise, finding drug smugglers, identifying fraudulent tax and gambling schemes and implementing the dreaded VAT. Definitely not technical. Occasionally I get a call from him to ask "how do I do this?", or "what does this mean?", not much. He has used Windows all the time and refused to upgrade to Vista. He wants it to use Office, use the Web (Firefox), email (Thunderbird), write notes on historical research and do some image processing with his digital photos.

Then about a month ago out of the blue I found out that he had installed Ubuntu 8.10 on his PC. He was really happy with it. Everything worked, it even resized his partitions nicely and kept his Windows stuff as well.

As I write this he is setting up a refurbished Dell multimedia system with XP and Ubuntu with no help from me (other than to tell him to choose NTFS rather than FAT32 when installing XP).

Also, things *do* work with the latest Ubuntu. Its so much better than say a year ago. I recently setup two machines with Ubuntu and everything setup without me touching one config file, even the dual monitor ATI card. Just as easy (and faster) than setting up XP on the same hardware.

If a 70 year old non-techie can do that, anyone can. Linux has arrived, its called Ubuntu :-)

Stephen

Re:Expected

[cloudmaster]

I bought an EEEPC, turned it on, selected my wireless network, and proceeded to complete an online course at my local University - including typing papers - with 0 changes to the computer. That EEEPC runs Linux. Firefox was the browser (which several online programs will complain about right off the bat) and Open Office was the word processor. I exported the documents as PDFs, but the exported word documents would've worked just as well. Ok, I technically did install wireshark and tcpdump, since it was a network security course and I needed to use those, but I'm fairly confident that this woman wasn't attempting to take a graduate-level network security course. And it was easier to install those on Linux than Windows...

I've recently installed EEEBuntu on the machine, and like it better - but even that, with the similar easy interface, uses the same programs to do the same things. This woman was clearly unable to learn things, and would've had the same problems with Windows. For example, a new computer often comes with a new MS Office, and new MS Office formats often don't open in older MS Office setups (like a University may well have). My wife was in an online course a year or so ago where there were students having troubles through the semester because their MS Word/PowerPoint versions were newer than the school's version, and documents wouldn't open. Open Office would not have had that issue, as it doesn't usually export to the latest format...

Re:Expected

[Random BedHead Ed]

Give them a new computer, any computer, even if it's the same OS, and they're hosed.

I've always suspected the problem is deeper than a mere "they don't understand computers" issue. The gory details of where a person keeps their documents and how he or she interacts with them and deals with information sources like the Web have nothing to do with IT specifically, but rather offer a more general window into the user's thought process. When you get involved with performing major maintenance on or replacing someone's computer, you're involving yourself in how they treat information generally - how they organize their files, remember important facts, and process incoming data. And most people stink at these things.

I remember one woman I used to support who made backups of her entire directory tree by making a copy of the tree under a new directory, which she'd invaariably name with her initials - let's say they're DMC to protect her identity. So almost every time I'd visit her to fix something on her computer I'd discover that she'd be nearly out of disk space (which was often the source of the problem), and the reason was that there would be a DMC folder containing a dupe of everything ... including previous backups, each in its own DMC folder, nested in a way that made me laugh, but also nearly drove me mad. I'd end up having to reconcile three or four different DMC folders in order to bring her back to a safe level of disk space.

But guess what? Her office was also a mess! Having a computer doesn't cause this sort of problem. It just involves IT people in the fallout.

Re:Expected

[Reivec]

I also have a friend that wasn't too computer savy and she used to call me all the time trying to fix windows problems she had until finally she decided to buy a Dell with Ubuntu on it. What made it work for her is that she didn't try to force everything to work how she was used to things working. She knew it would be a learning curve and took the time to relearn how to use her computer.

She now NEVER calls me asking for help and frequently talks about how happy she is not having to use windows anymore and how many fewer problems she has. Ubuntu can be used by the computer illiterate. It just can't be used by stupid windows users that think if it doesn't work like windows it is broken.

Re:Expected

[Lulfas]

That's alright, if all I wanted to do was Karma-whore, I'd have made one of the (many, many) comments in this thread about how stupid you'd have to be not be able to use Linux. It's kind of nice to see these, it reminds me of the biggest anchor holding back Linux development: the users.

Re:Expected

[HermMunster]

From her level of knowledge she should have had a very difficult problem even under Windows. If not being able to configure something is an example of why you should put your life on hold then almost everyone at some point would be so lethargic that they can't function in society.

Re:Expected

[Grendel70]

I get lots of calls for Windows-related issues, very few for Mac OSX and nearly zero for Linux. This is definite proof that linux has less issues than OS X and far fewer than Windows. Discussion closed!

Discussion opened! You state that the number of calls you get are for, in ascending order, Linux, Mac OSX, and Windows. Could it be that the quantity of support calls by OS is directly proportional the install base?

Re:Expected

[Rick Bentley]

I'm tempted to hit it with a stun gun, just so it'll be completely down, and they can come out and fix it. Too bad I don't own a stun gun.

So, take it off and put it in the microwave for a few seconds...

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

It is not unusual for universities these days to have "microsoft office" courses that are required for students and that teach exactly office - including in some (ick) cases requiring students to memorize the exact keystrokes and menu entries required to get something done.

Many universities abandoned "teaching" long ago.

Re:Expected

[Locutus]

This really sounds like one of those "Joe the Plumber" stories where it could very well be motivated by some other process. After all, it's impressive that she found a system which had Ubuntu on it by default. She sounds really naive about computers, as does the article author, but yet she found her way to a $1,100 Dell laptop which came preloaded with Ubuntu and not Microsoft's Windows Vista.

What she did was really tough to do while being so naive. And let's not even get into how she claimed she needed it to have Microsoft Word but she could not have ordered that computer with Microsoft Office. I don't think Dell ships Ubuntu preloaded with WINE or even CrossOver Office. Could she really be so dumb as to decide she "needs" a computer to register for classes, not see what that registration system or the school requires and find her way through Dell's site and doesn't get a low cost laptop but a $1,100 model which has Ubuntu on it? This just sounds too convenient as in the "Joe the Plumber" situation.

She's one heck of a confused computer user or a mediocre publicity stunt by Waggener Edstrom or Microsft's current PR firm. And has her high school not taught her anything about computers? Maybe someone should research her high school to see if one child was left behind.

LoB

Re:Expected

[Shotgun]

The modem provides an ethernet port. You should have stopped there. The modulator/demodulator is the endpoint of a bridge connection that exposes the computer plugged into its ethernet port to the providers network. One of the computers on that network will be a DHCP server that will provide the computer plugged into the modulator/demodulator with an IP address and DNS server address to use. No software from the client computer is needed or desired.

Re:Expected

[The Great Pretender]

The problem is that the woman may never have heard of Open Office and likely when told to use Word that's what she thought she should use. Just because you and I understand the differences and how to use both, it doesn't mean that everyone has our experiences, or ability, in this area. Would you assume that someone who has driven an automatic their whole life could suddenly drive stick? Yet both things do as good a job. The bottom-line is that the Dell rep at the first sale point should have inquired about the need and then inform the lady that by attempting to buy a cheaper PC she would loose the MS abilities. My assumption here is that she didn't know and the Dell (Linux) rep told her that Linux will do everything that Windows does, where that's a mis-statement. It may perform function to achieve similar goals, but it uses different methods. She then needed to not buy the computer, but go off and figure out if Linux was right for her. At which point either through knowing windows, or plumping for the familiar she would have chosen windows. At the end of the day, IMHO, her fault for not doing better research before purchasing.

Re:Expected

[fooby12]

You want to encourage people to use Linux? Great - do so with one-on-one discussions and careful mentoring.

STOP FORCING IT ONTO PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT IT!

Thank you for making that loud and clear. Although the Linux kernel and its various distributions are all great options. No single flavour satisfies all tastes. So, each OS has its place. Unfortunately, there will be an ever waging battle of compatibility, but the non-M$FT side has made a rousing comeback in recent years. The end result: There is never just one solution to a complex problem.

To be continued on some Linux forum in greater detail...

Re:Expected

[MattBD]

I think it would be a lot better if ISP's stopped sending people those stupid setup CD's and just gave them the information they need to set it up themselves. They might need a driver for some devices, which is fair enough, but most operating systems include a simple setup wizard, so why don't they just use that?

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

In any case Debian 8.10 [...]

... is from the future.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Without access to the Internet, how are you supposed to know how to do this?

From the article:

"...Schubert says she ordered her laptop online at Dell.com expecting to buy your classic bread-and-butter computer..."

she had access to the internet, there is no excuse

Re:Expected

[homesnatch]

FTFA: "Verizon says it will dispatch a technician to try to assist her accessing the internet without using the Windows-only installation disk. Verizon says its high-speed internet does indeed support Ubuntu, but some advanced features and installation disks clearly don't work with Linux."

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

"Without access to the Internet, how are you supposed to know how to do this?"

Any Linux or BSD I've tried since I got DSL has connected automatically at first startup. She was probably too intellectually lazy to find the link for Firefox. I'm not positive but I think it's right there on the panel in Ubuntu!

Re:Expected

[Ninja Programmer]

They do indeed include Open Office. (It would be insane not to.) In TFA it says:

MATC also says it promises to accept any of Schubert's papers or class documents using whatever software she has installed.

Which means there is simply a severe case of computer illiteracy here. She is *NOT* prevented from taking classes because she happens to have Ubuntu installed. Of course you can use Ubuntu and Open Office for your education. I have basically absolutely NO sympathy for anyone younger than me who fails to understand computer basics. And neither should anyone else. In this day and age, computer literacy *IS* literacy.

Also it should be pointed out that this single person's little problem doesn't rise to the level of a serious news story to be written about. Yet it is. Why is that? Do you think maybe someone is trying to sell a narrative here? Maybe the magazine wants to make it seem as though Ubuntu is somehow anti-school or something, and that Windows "just works". Why are there no stories about people with Vista on their laptops that crash all the time and lose people's term papers while they are at school?

You have to recognize a bullshit story when you see one, and I see one right here.

Re:Expected

[tsanth]

Agreed. It's around the $20/credit level for community colleges in Riverside and Orange counties in California, too.

Re:Expected

[EvilBudMan]

Yeah, had the same problem with just phone line. Got charged but it was on their end. I have some issues with both Verizon and Comcast concerning things like that.

Re:Expected

[Shotgun]

For two semesters? She couldn't get to her classes for a whole semester, and then ponied up the cash for another connectionless semester?

No. This was not the school's 'fault'. If I had missed two DAYS of classes, I would have raised hell all the way up and down the line until someone fixed something somewhere, or I would have found out what the problem was and fixed it myself.

The problem was that this woman was/is a complete dipshit.

Re:Expected

[Zero__Kelvin]

Linux + FOSS

Re:Expected

[HermMunster]

In the Linux world today no one compiles drivers unless they want to. The Linux kernel contains more native driver support than any kernel in the history of computers.

Unless you have a pre-fab install of a box such as Gateway, HP, etc with Windows and never need to redo the box you'll never have a driver issue either, unless you add new hardware. Then you have to deal with the drivers. I've been involved in computer repair and maintenance for 5 years as an owner operator of a small business and I have almost 20 years of work prior to that. When I say Windows has problems with drivers I'm not kidding and some of them can be super nasty.

In Linux you'd just plug it in and it would work. Though this is the case, some exotic hardware, such as the Verison component she had can cause rough spots in smooth and well done hardware support. Why did Linux get this good? It was due to the manufacturers failure to provide drivers so the community reverse engineered them and when they were mature enough they were incorporated into the kernel. Who created the drivers? NASA was/is a big contributor to driver support. IBM is another.

There hasn't been a need to compile drivers for the past several years.

And, if you understood the story you'd understand it had nothing to do with the drivers, it had to do with activating the modem and submitting documents for the completion of work assignments.

Re:Expected

[FalcDot]

Yes, Linux is not 'what people are used to'. That doesn't mean it's not 'idiot-friendly', you just need the right kind of idiot: a pure, fresh idiot, one who has *never* been behind a Windows box either.

Because, like you correctly stated, it's not what people are used to, it's different from Windows. You can't take an idiot that's been working on Windows for the past 5 years, drop them in front of Linux and then then expect them to display the same level of mediocrity. You wouldn't be able to do it the other way round either.

Re:Expected

[thtrgremlin]

Some people just need to see things a specific way, or they are totally lost. I know people that couldn't work an upside down door handle. Please never let that difficulty drive Linux development. Fortunately, Linux has always been about options. there may be a distribution out there that is for people that can't find their car if it is parked on the wrong side of the driveway (I think it was called SugarOS), but I believe it will be an evolutionary thing. Kids today are starting at very young ages with much better technology and are getting more intimate understandings. Kids are reaching competency and proficiency very quickly like kids do with anything they can actually get their hands on. Most adults if, say, they were pasty the age of 20 when they first got introduced to a computer, without much concerted effort, ever become more than very well trained novices. For anyone familiar with learning theory should understand that with that type of 'experience', it can't be adapted, no step or detail seems any more 'important' than any other in accomplishing a task, they don't see see the big picture, and the challenge in learning anything new is equal to the number of new steps to memorize. In what way is Linux ever going to be easy for these people to learn, and in another way, the kinds of challenges Linux can deal with, the tools are virtually worthless to a computer novice, those that don't see it holistically.

I think this explains why it is easy for little kids to use Ubuntu. The learning curve is great with just a few bumps, but while the system isn't designed to limit out at novice use, there are plenty of tools and methods to let novices work their way through the system doing basic tasks till they get a better understanding of all whats going on.

Tasks in Windows are just as simple in Linux for a novice, but the methods are different. The big difference between Linux and Windows, for me, is lifting that ceiling. If you begin to understand what all is going on or how things work, Linux gives you new and creative ways to do complex things in very simple, non-obvious ways. This is where I think people get intimidated. A novice watches a proficient Linux user do something seemingly "magical" and the novice begins to believe that is the way they need to do things. While maybe it should be the way to do things, that doesn't mean it is what they need to be doing right away. Linux is a world of possibilities: Be aware of where you are in your understanding with your computer and take appropriate steps to learn things in a way that is appropriate for your level. And if someone that helps you works their magic in ways that are beyond your level, don't worry, it probably took them some time to get to that level themselves.

However, if you really don't care to put in the mental effort to get past novice, I recommend getting a Macintosh. There are fancy expert features of OSX, but they are kept pretty hidden as so not to appear confusing.

It is a lot like a high performance car and their maintenance. Drive it hard, and it is going to need more work. If you need to hire a mechanic every few hundred miles, it is going to be very expensive unless you do your own mechanic work. Some people need to be rich, some people need to be mechanics, some people need to learn to drive carefully, and some people just need to buy slow cars.

Windows is like riding the short yellow school bus; it gets you where you need to go.

Re:Expected

[Hairy Heron]

Since when does the ability to use something that someone else thought was clever or clear, but didn't document exhaustively, have anything to do with the ability to write various forms of software?

When the person, as the parent did, uses their job title as a badge to try to claim that they have some high degree of knowledge which the parent clearly lacks if they are unable to install Ubuntu properly (a task a good number only semi-literate computer users can do with only minor prompting from others). They were the ones throwing that out there as if it was supposed to mean something and frankly it's nothing impressive if they are as computer illiterate as they come off.

Re:Expected

[RichardJenkins]

I'd agree that OpenOffice is a good - possibly superior replacement for Word.

But you can't expect me to believe that OpenOffice is as compatible with Word as another copy of Word is. The complexity and obfuscation in the Doc format is guarantee enough that OpenOffice doesn't have it 100% correct.

So if you need to author word documents, and you need to be 100% confident that the recipient will receive view them properly and you're IT skills are limited, the benefits of using OpenOffice are moot. Unless you are interested in upping your IT skills and using PDF (and why would you want to invest time in that) you have to produce .doc files and you would be an idiot to rely on OpenOffice's best stab at guessing a closed format for anything important.

Until everyone uses OpenOffice, most people won't. It's not pretty, but it was a big win for MS arranging it this way,

Re:Expected

[sgt scrub]

That is a good idea.
provide-more-documentation-in-the-users-face

It should give Dell the opportunity to bring back the days of pre-installed software shooting popups at the clients on first boot. I'm not trying to be snide. One of the reasons Dell became such a success is because Microsoft and a slew of other companies discounted everything down to nill for them because they shipped machines with so much crap on them it was like wading through malware to get the machine booted. I know they still do some of it but not nearly as bad as the PI PII days. If companies get wind they can pack a bunch of crap onto the first boot of someone's Linux machine they'd line up outside the door.

Re:Expected

[Rasperin]

Show me where I might find these most excellent schools of 20dollars per unit! For community college where I'm at it costs on the average of $80/credit hour. And the local university is ~300/credit hour.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

except verizon did offer to send tech support (rtfa). she was just too stupid to call earlier or do anything right (lack of critical thinking makes me think she wouldn't make it in college anyways even with windows). I don't even see how this would be much different if it was a mac in this case.

Re:Expected

[Shotgun]

She was probably already educated beyond her intelligence anyhow.

Re:Expected

[westlake]

If the Dell support rep could have just given her two or three helpful tips, she could have probably been fine. OpenOffice is a perfect replacement for Word. I don't know about her Verizon situation, but I'm sure there is a workaround for that.

"Emphasis added."

The answer to saving in Word format should be instantly accessible in OpenOffice Help - or a walk-through designed to introduce new users to the program. This is the problem Clippy tried to solve - and probably did solve more often than the geek was willing to admit.

OpenOffice isn't a drop-in replacement for any component of MS Office. It has its own strengths and weaknesses. The Dell support tech can't be expected to resolve every potential issue for the college student.

Linux is still nowhere near the point where a non-techie will consider adopting it.

The problem for Linux in the consumer market isn't simply poor sales - it's the disproportionate cost of maintaining a dual inventory and support structure, a cost that the big box retailer like Walmart isn't willing to pay.

It's simpler and cheaper to exchange the $350 Linux netbook for its $350 Windows cousin. Simpler and cheaper still not to stock the Linux netbook at all.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

For the most part running Vista as a limited user gets less of those annoying pop-ups than running as admin does

Re:Expected

[JWSmythe]

    That's what I meant. The phone cable goes into the modem, which the Verizon installs I've seen have a pretty picture book to explain that. I know they can have modem to USB, but I haven't seen one in anyone's home yet. Of course, she could be the exception. They didn't exactly clarify that in the article.

Re:Expected

[thtrgremlin]

saving as an MS Office document does NOT preserve OOo's document formatting like it should.

There are only certain features that do not translate well. In particular, line breaks and tables I have had issues with, but avoiding the things that don't work well, which isn't much, shouldn't keep you from being able to follow the assignment. Also, for mac, OpenOffice really lags behind the other version the most. If you would like to have your computer back, consider Google Documents for simple stuff, or ThinkFree for fancier documents.

And while it seems really stupid, typically a user agent switcher can get you around the IE only stuff. If they are .NET applications, you need to get mono. If the school isn't going to help, you can do site specific documentation to help others. If you start getting significant hits, they may feel they are loosing control of their site and will try and adapt to the demand. Worse than sheep, they are extra lazy. These are non tech people running a big web site. Motivating them to even fix things for one specific platform is a pain, but I doubt it is as forelorn as you make it out to be. Further, don't worry about influencing the change yourself, just be the really annoying guy amongst many annoying people that will inspire future annoying people to eventually help them change. Just because they don't change to your request doesn't mean you didn't make an impact. Look at how class action lawsuits typically start :)

Re:Expected

[INT_QRK]

I agree with the advice that Dell should just ship her a WIN machine, period. Look, in my house we (me, my wife and each of my 5 kids) use Linux (Ubuntu) (4), MAC OS X2 (2), and one Win machine, and oh-by-the-way, we use Verizon DSL with a wireless LAN. It is true that the Verizon CD implements scripts to set up on Win and OS X, but you don't need it. I never used it, I just configured the network on my own. That said, The first time I needed Verizon help desk, I explained to the tech that I was on a Linux machine and he very politely said -- "Oh, we're trained for Windows but maybe we can talk through it." So, we just continued the dialog by talking basics of what needed to be accomplished and I would translate that into the *nix equivalent out loud and we worked it out. By the way, I got through grad school entirely using Linux. In my first semester I had a computer forensics course/lab, and I decided to try to switch, since so many basic (and free) tools were Linux anyway. I went through the same issues with the University's help desk as I had to work out connecting to and using the University's labs and collaboration applications tools. I came to find out that the main servers were actually Unix and Linux, with mainly the student facing Web applications tuned for Windows (IE, activex, javascript 5, etc.) Their basic strategy was to tune customer support to economically address what the majority of customers were using. Makes sense. I never griped, since it was my choice and challenge. I just taught myself the workarounds (for example Ubuntu's version of Firefox never did work properly with the University's collaboration site, but I did find that Epiphany worked just dandy, as did Opera (with a few quirks). OpenOffice.org always fit the bill, and in only a few cases I had to fiddle with Wine to install the occasional required Win app. (such as ERAssistant). Long story short, just give her Windows, Dell...

Re:Expected

[JWSmythe]

      It's kinda big for that. Hmmm, what could I do with 1/2 dozen old microwaves, and an old van body. Excuse me while I go on Craigslist to build the worlds biggest microwave oven. :)

Re:Expected

[networkBoy]

easy fix. make a dir where it will be caught by her backup scheme. populate it with recursive dirs 1 shy of the limit for the NTFS FS. Then she can make precisely 1 backup. the second attempt will fail.
-nB

Re:Expected

[Spatial]

Didn't she order the PC online in the first place?

Re:Expected

[sholsinger]

You're right. And it is both a blessing and a curse. Although my suggestion was for the more positive use of providing helpful information.

Re:Expected

[agrounds]

My point is that in the "real world" we salaried professionals are expected to not just present information, but to do so in a clean, precise, and aesthetically-pleasing format. This is how the corporate world works. It is not enough to have some half-assed document when you make a formal presentation. Management likes drawings, charts, and visual aids to supplement the information they are being presented with. It helps to bridge the gap between the technical people like myself to those that are in management that have little to no knowledge of how or what we do.

Effective communication means tailoring your presentation to your target audience. Once you leave the world of academia, this becomes more important than ever.

I can't address your lamentation about hypothetical students because:
1) I have been out of school since the early nineties and don't really care nor worry about what is going on there.
2) The real-world needs of others have little to nothing to do with what the college crowd has deemed "the way it should be".

Re:Expected

[Lemmy Caution]

With Firefox and Thunderbird, no problems.

OpenOffice in lieu of MS Word? As soon as they open up a doc that someone else sends them, the formatting could get munged a little bit, and when they save it and send it back (I'm assuming you've switched OpenOffice to "save as Word doc" mode), more formatting can get changed or lost. It will, I assure you, end in tears.

I don't like MS Word. But it is, unfortunately, somewhat indispensable for many.

Re:Expected

[thtrgremlin]

HA HA HA!!! That's really funny and sad all at the same time.

Yeah, if firefox, nautilus, and or movie player are already open, many people don't even notice a difference. But for some reason my oddly shaped book shelf on my desk with an Ubuntu sticker on it people think is another computer. I assume nothing with people anymore.

Re:Expected

[Cynic9]

R T F A

Re:Expected

[RichardJenkins]

Would you want anyone to repair your computer if they can't be bothered to teach themselves basic first aid or biology?

If you're a sane person you wouldn't care one way of the other. It's the worst type of intellectual arrogance to suggest that an intrinsic understanding of one field is a prerequisite for competence in any other.

Re:Expected

[lukas84]

Windows is still easier.

I disagree. Windows administration is as challenging as Linux, sometimes made more difficult by red tape and corporate bullshit.

Pure usage of an administrated machine is the same, of course if you already know Windows it'll be easier to use Windows again than to relearn the differences in Windows's and Linux's idiosyncrasies.

This is probably less than a month's work to write. But it hasn't been done yet. It needs to be done. There needs to be an extremely friendly interview/installation process for linux to take it to the next level.

Because it's not really interesting work, and it's a stupid idea in general.

Administrating a computer in this day and age requires knowledge and skill. It always like: Just like maintaining a car. There will not be a car in the next 20 years that requires ABSOLUTELY NO MAINTENANCE.

You can either learn to do it on your own, or you can pay someone else to do it.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention, how about the "ask someone you know to help you out" option which, last time I checked, is free. Sounds like not only is she an idiot (not because she couldn't get it working, but because she dropped out of school before making any real effort to solve the problem), she apparently has either no friends OR all her friends are idiots as well.

Re:Expected

[INT_QRK]

Absolutely true! Never used the CD. Just plugged and played (Ubuntu), after configuring the WLAN the first time, entering the WPA password, etc., all that you always have to do regardless of OS.

Re:Expected

[RichardJenkins]

Linux can be superior in every other way, but Windows will always work better than Linux *with other Windows machines*. Microsoft guarantees this with the closed nature of their networking protocols.

This means that as long as most people are using windows, it is to the short term advantage of a non-technical user to use Windows also. This has results in the current situation where most everyone uses Windows.

With almost everyone using windows software/hardware/drivers/manual producers can get away with just producing Windows versions.

As Linux Distributions become increasingly usable (ultimately I believe surpassing Windows in usability) these two factors will remain and retard Linux adoption:

* The 'lock in' effect where another Windows machine is the most compatible choice in a world populated with Windows machines
* The 'one size fits most' effect, where people producing anything related to technology can cut corners and only support windows because it's used by almost everyone.

Re:Expected

[bkr1_2k]

The work around is to simply not download all the crapware Verizon tries to foist on you with their "install CD" that is 100% unnecessary.

As for OO, it's no where near a perfect replacement for Word, but it is completely acceptable (and for some people even preferable) and mostly compatible.

I tend to agree most linux users think it's better than it is, but if you honestly can't look through a "start menu" and find "word processor" perhaps going to college, even online, is a bit of a jump as well.

Re:Expected

[bkr1_2k]

Yes they do, you just have to know how to ask the question, which many non-tech people simply don't know how to do.

Re:Expected

[e2d2]

The GP said he had to google to get it set up. Not that it was impossible, just that it wasn't as easy as say a Mac or a Windows machine for him.

I've been writing software for 14 years and I too had to search Google for information on supported wi-fi chipsets and what appropriate tools to use. According to your logic I'm a hack.

Too many Linux users set up a driver, write a few shell scripts, compile a kernel using a tutorial, and then start advocating Linux by berating anyone that didn't suffer like them.

Something the Linux community could use is some brutal honesty. Point the finger inward and say "what can I do to make this better?". Is that so hard? All you have to do is put away your ego.

Re:Expected

[JWSmythe]

I have a new found love of Amazon. I kinda doubt I'll find one with a listing saying "This will ensure your half broken electronics never turn on again." :)

Re:Expected

[hey!]

Sure. You didn't have any problems. If you did, you probably could have fixed them yourself.

In a perfect world, that would be true of everybody, but on the list of things to fix about this world, it doesn't come very high on my list.

Re:Expected

[e2d2]

But the parent never said he couldn't install Ubuntu.

Re:Expected

[Hairy Heron]

I've been writing software for 14 years and I too had to search Google for information on supported wi-fi chipsets and what appropriate tools to use. According to your logic I'm a hack.

Nope, unless you were trying to use your title of software engineer as some sort of boasting about how much knowledge you have.

Re:Expected

[deraj123]

Best Buy will tell you anything they can to sell you more high margin items. I know, I have worked for them both as a computer salesman (although PSP/Accessory salesman would be more appropriate - the computers sold themselves) and as a tech behind the bench.

Re:Expected

[alexj33]

Well, I was going to go into a tirade about how stupid the girl is,

Now now. She's just not computer literate. This isn't the same thing.

Re:Expected

[Computershack]

She's stupid because she ordered it with Ubuntu of her own volition.

Maybe because she was stupid enough to listen to Lusers who continually bleated on about how easy it was to use, how everything "Just worked" and that you could do everything you can with Windows but don't have to worry about viruses etc.
As her story proved, that's just utter bullshit.

Re:Expected

[raw-sewage]

For anything but dialup accounts, there's nothing to it. Most OS's come set up for DHCP on the ethernet. Plug the cable in, turn it on, and you're done.

I've had at least one ISP where they had to get the MAC address of whatever you plugged into their modem before it would work. I think this was with Ameritech (who I believe have now been swallowed up by AT&T) DSL. That was one thing the "magic CD" did for you: you ran it, and it went to some special address and registered your MAC address. And if you didn't have Windows (or didn't want to reverse engineer what the CD software did), you had to call and pray you got someone kind enough to help you out. At least half would just say, "Sorry, we only support Windows." After going through this once or twice, I learned exactly what to say to get my stuff working, but it was painful getting there. This situation may have improved, as this was several years ago.

Re:Expected

[atraintocry]

The article said "Verizon High-Speed Internet", which, unless the newspaper got it wrong, means DSL. The article also implies that installing Windows would void her warranty, which I really doubt.

So no drivers or anything here. She needed a word processor and DSL. Nothing that the school couldn't have helped her out with, or Verizon. And it's not Windows-specific...again in the article the school tells her she can use OO.org and her response is basically "oops." I'm sure the school has a computer lab, as well.

She probably had a nervous breakdown, which led her to cancel all of her classes and call the local news.

Did you read about the Tuttle city manager? Or the San Clemente woman who called 911 over a messed-up Burger King order? Stupid and crazy is a bad combination. The lesson is, do some research before you drop $1100 on something. Don't expect Dell to do it for you, they're trying to sell you the damn thing.

Re:Expected

[atraintocry]

The school probably had computers that she could use.

Which is another reason why dropping all of her classes was stupid.

Re:Expected

[bkr1_2k]

That's really only a problem if someone in the office is actually using MSWord. If not, the formatting is mute, even if it's saved as a Word doc.

Re:Expected

[atraintocry]

And it was most likely DSL ("Verizon High-Speed Internet", says TFA).

Re:Expected

[penguinbrat]

Linux is still nowhere near the point where a non-techie will consider adopting it.

Not necessarily, Linux isn't anywhere near Windoze, let alone Mac - but it has come leaps and bounds in the last decade. I've just finished installing Kubuntu and KDE4.1 for friends of my parents - they are in their 60's ~ 70's and know ZERO about technology.

The whole thing started out with him asking me to take a look at his desktop because he couldn't enable the automatic updates - looked/acted as if TrendMicro disabled that option for security or something for some reason. After a few beers, and BS'ing about things - we got to talking about Firefox, Thunderbird and Linux (FOSS). He started getting all gitty about things when I explained that Linux is mostly immune to viruses - I've been using it solely for a couple of decades now and have never had a virus problem, and routinely hit up sites that are known for malware and just chuckle when they try to run. I explained to him that if by some chance I did come across one made for Linux, all I would have to do is create a new user simply because of the basic security on a *NIX system - the core system will never get infected like it does under Windows with the typical user having administrator rights.

He asked if we could get together after the 1st, and I said of course. I pretty much blew it off, thinking it was the beer talking - but earlier this week he called asking if I could come over and look at his system. It had become infected with some kind of virus that Trend could do nothing about, it would just pull up a window saying it can't do anything about it, you close it and it comes back up with in a few minutes. I had brought over the Kubuntu install disk with me and showed him KDE, OpenOffice, Firefox, Thunderbird and Adept where he can search for practically any kind of software and simply hit install - it's all free...

I ended up resizing the partitions and installing Kubuntu on both his desktop and laptops, both had infections that Trend either missed or couldn't do anything about. The desktop was twice as fast as the laptop but with half the RAM (512mb), it was dog slow under windows (6+ hrs to zip 200 1mb images that took Linux less than a minute - he just laughed when he saw that). Linux ran the desktop just fine, even with only 512MB, the CD burner even started working again (the burning part). And when I got the laptop to see the desktop through CIFS and over wireless (which wasn't working either under Windows), he was 100% sold on Linux and told his wife they are going to get another 1G of RAM for the desktop and a new printer since the DELL was a "paperweight" according to linuxprinting.org, which he got a kick out of - the communities since of humor, like the kernel reporting "OOPS" when it hits a bug.

I was surprised to see that WINE had installed and ran his PokerStars application with out any issues what so ever (www.pokerstars.com). I kept telling them that they could boot back into windows at anytime they got tired or frustrated with Linux - and he just nodded and said that Windows was a pile of crap and never wanted to use it again. All he cared about was his PokerStars (WINE), WORD docs (OpenOffice), surfing the web (FireFox) and Email (Thunderbird) - after walking him and his wife through everything, they were 100% sold. His wife made the comment that it looks exactly the same, just a little different in how to do things...

Point being, that Linux has come 1000 miles in a short time - and as long as the given person *knows* what is up and what to expect, they will fall in love too with the hansom penguin:-)

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

The word you are looking for is "moot", you fucking retard.

Re:Expected

[kilodelta]

You may not own a stun gun but disconnect their cable from your Catalyst and shoot 120VAC down the line. That'll fry it.

Re:Expected

[jedidiah]

> Too many Linux users set up a driver, write a few shell scripts, compile
> a kernel using a tutorial, and then start advocating Linux by berating
> anyone that didn't suffer like them. ...and many more just see it all work "automagically" and wish that the Trolls would stop living in 1998.

Windows faults are patched over by the fact that it usually comes pre-installed.

If you had to install it yourself you would rip off your clothes and you would run screaming hysterically into the night...

Re:Expected

[atraintocry]

All she needed was a word processor and to get her DSL hooked up. So the real trouble was that she didn't ask the school (who told her to just use OO.org once they knew) or Verizon (which said they'd send someone out once they knew) before she dropped all of her classes and called the local news.

I'm sure Dell's rep was not interested in "the cause of FOSS", just the fact that he had a support ticket to handle. Lady calls in, says there's no word processor and internet. Rep says yes there is. Ticket closed.

The tragedy of this is that by calling the news she altered the course of nature here -- person acts stupid, bad things happen, person learns to be less stupid next time. I know people like this woman and unfortunately the only thing they learn in life is that the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Re:Expected

[kilodelta]

This part got me: "I have no idea how they cope when they rent a car that's different from their own, get a new toaster, or buy a new light switch: the least little difference completely flummoxes them. Stupid might be a harsh, if not an entirely inaccurate term" Simple, they all have common controls that are pretty much in the same places. Take a car for example, steering wheel is always in the same place, gas pedal and brake pedal too. Same with light switches. I think all OS designers should be forced to read Donald Norman's "The Design of Everyday Things" and start from there.

Re:Expected

[Apatharch]

I hear she tried that but had trouble handing in the coursework...

Re:Expected

[jedidiah]

> OK, let's stop right there.

No. Let's not.

This person is infact a moron. They managed to "unintentionally" buy a
Linux machine despite the fact that the Dell website makes this no easy
task.

Unecesary stupidity shouldn't be tolerated. This cult of stupidity is
a big part of why Windows is such a big mess. No one takes responsibility
for themselves. No one can be bothered to understand what they're using.

This crap harms Windows users as much as it harms anyone else.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

I had to tell ATT I ran Xp when they asked for what OS I ran. But all I had to do was plug in the router, plug in my desktop and Firefox opened to the setup page. Verizons probably would have worked the same way if she had tried. But my guess is that the entire article is nothing but FUD and not something that really happened.

Re:Expected

[atraintocry]

Mods should note that, like Idiocracy, this post is more insightful than funny.

Re:Expected

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Well, that's rather the problem. The geeks among us do such tinkering as is necessary to make it work, and we don't really think about it. The amount of effort required is negligable, we don't even consider it tinkering. So we look at each other and say, "This couldn't be easier, look how simple! Anybody can run this OS!"

Here's a fine example of that mentality, in this same discussion. No matter how trivial such things are to us, it's not to the non-tinkerer. For people who don't want to ever even think about what's under the hood of their computers - nevermind actually /look/ at it - an OEM-installed Windows unfortunately remains the best way to go in most cases. (Or mac, these days.)

Re:Expected

[greenbird]

The problem is, as I've been flamed for before, Linux is still nowhere near the point where a non-techie will consider adopting it. Although it's much better than it was even a few years ago, it's still not an idiot-friendly OS where things 'just work', compared to what people are used to.

You've been flamed before because this is just wrong on so many levels it just demonstrates your complete lack of knowledge.

First and foremost Windows does not now and never has "just worked". And it is far less idiot-friendly than the alternatives including Ubuntu. The problem with Windows is that it doesn't even take an idiot to screw it up. Normal use is almost guaranteed to render it useless within a year. That is unless you know how to install and pay for anti-virus software, anti-adware software, install an alternative browser, know what e-mail attachments are safe and which aren't, etc, etc... Yeah, that's surely idiot proof and just works. I could write a book on on cases of Windows just NOT working.

It doesn't take a techie to know that Open Office is a perfect replacement for Microsoft Office. The Verizon thing has nothing to do with Windows just working. Actually Ubuntu would likely just work with her internet connection without having to use the Verizon CD. It most likely has to do with her sticking the CD in and not being able to install the not needed Verizon software and calling Verizon and Verizon telling her that they don't support Linux (had a similar experience with a locked down Windows computer).

I get that all the time when I call for support on internet issues. I tell them I don't want them to support Linux. I want them to fix their damn network. The problem is that these companies hire people who have 0 technical knowledge to do support and doing so costs them boatloads of money in the long run. Example: my neighbor has 2 daughters with laptops. They had several things repaired on both laptops. After they were return neither could connect to the Verizon provided wireless network. The repair rep spent several hours and failed. They spent hours (he said at least 3 hours) on the phone with a Verizon tech who even got them to give him remote desktop control of the computers (wired connection). It took me about a half hour to get both working and most of that was rebooting several times to ensure they would keep working. Did I mention that these were both Windows PC's that should 'just work'? So I guess the techies in this case were just super idiots that even Windows can't protect against?

This is just a recent example. I have a long list of these and I avoid touching Windows. I use it for gaming alone because that's about all it's really good for and only because, again, no one will make their games for Linux. It isn't that Windows just works it's that if you mention Linux everyone states that they won't work with it even though anyone with even half ass technical knowledge who has had to work with both knows that Linux just works far better than any version of Windows.

Re:Expected

[jbolden]

Did you ever consider that this might be her first computer purchase?

If this was her first car purchase would we expect basic troubleshooting? 2 years ago I did my first mid priced bike purchase and had to learn maintenance. I also had to learn a hell of a lot about bikes to make it. I wasn't born knowing the plusses and minus of various gear systems of what different frame geometries meant.

I recently did my first house purchase. There were hundreds of pages of documentation regarding loans, titling, maintenance, insurance. I had to do. Heck I just did a $200 extra tank you county would have fined me huge if I didn't follow pages and pages of complex instructions and it was my obligation to find those instructions.

Every year I do my taxes. I probably have to do a dozen forms with 12-40 pages of instructions each. Now admittedly this is a one time learning curve but that is a lot of material.

This woman is an adult, not a nine year old. So yes I expect she knows how to do basic research. I expect her to have access to a network of friends, family, coworkers and acquaintances that can help. I expect her to know how to use tech support, beyond the basics.

Anyone of those would have solved this problem.

Did you ever consider that she might not HAVE another configured machine to connect to the internet and do said research?

Library, friends, school, work....

Further: the woman is taking a course to figure out how to use office. OFFICE!

How do you know that? The article just says that she said it was a requirement for some online class she is taking. So I think you are mistaken. But if you were correct that means she most certainly didn't buy the right thing. Ubuntu doesn't run Microsoft Office.

Dell or the Ubuntu designers should provide tutorials that AUTOMATICALLLY RUN unless you tell them not to, and those tutorials should lay-out the basic steps to create an office document, and the steps required to connect to the internet.

Actually a better solution would be I think Ubuntu should have a package "Verizon internet connect" which does the 3 steps from the install CD. Then Verizon / Dell could just have her do that.

A "how to do stuff with your computer" a printed manual would be very useful. That could lead to the tutorials.

Re:Expected

[WarlockD]

I picked up two re imaging calls last week for this woman who couldn't work because the icons on her screen are missing. The problem was that the desktop was remotely mounted, so when she tried it on another machine she called AGAIN. I don't know who to blame though. The user or the techs in inda:P (PS - I think its Brazil now)

Re:Expected

[qurk]

Indeed. AT&T's support telephone network is a collossal cluster fudge. At one point in getting my dsl switched from telephone/dsl to just dsl I had 3 different ip addresses, the same number of accounts, and this was something that took about 7 hours talking to dozens of different representatives to figure out. The next 10 hours were spent explaining the situation first, then either getting made fun of or transferred. I listened to that infuriating answer message 100 times I bet. Eventutally they sent out a tech to my place, he saw with his eyes what I'd told dozens of people and called in and it was working right the same day. To make it even more infuriating the dozens and dozens of people I'd spoken with were all in call centers, had no way to identify themselves, and refused to admit they had a supervisor. If DSL wasn't more reliable than cable here...alas. Besides I'd wasted so much of my time (and had had to upgrade my new cell phone from a different company's minutes 3 times), it was just more convienient to stay with AT&T. Never received a sinsere apology, they never admitted that they had done anything wrong. The AT&T tech support guys are pretty great people though. They don't have a problem with you running linux as long as you can do all their steps...which is better as no rebooting just command line.

Re:Expected

[Firethorn]

What you really need is a RJ-45 to NEMA WD-1 6-15P patch cord ;)

Re:Expected

[corrie]

I heard a rumour that OOo can actually save files in MS Word format. Perhaps that school is a case of GIGO then, seeing that its allumni go in clueless, and come out the same?

Re:Expected

[be951]

Again, no. A swindle, at least IMO, requires intentional deception. There's none of that here. The OS is listed right along with all the other features. No fine print. If she's not competent to understand the features, she should probably have someone to help her order, then set up the machine.

If Dell has any fault here, it is that the Rep should have either 1) given the girl a Windows laptop (along with the additional charges that likely would have been due); or 2) Given her enough information to do what she needed, rather than just (apparently) telling her it would work for her. #1 is probably the better choice, given the customer's apparent lack of tech skills or knowledge.

Re:Expected

[Fri13]

If Dell would be wise, it would switch Ubuntu to Mandriva immediately, because it gives you wizard to get a internet connection work. You do not use faulty GNOME or KDE applications to do that but own great tools. Only problem is that if the user does not understand how to plug the network device to computer, then Mandriva's applications does not help the situation at all, like on Ubuntu.

Ubuntu is far from "easy to use" or "It just works" when you compare it to distributions like Mandriva, OpenSUSE or PCLinuxOS (Mandriva).

Ubuntu just get the whole marketing from users who do not know anything about easy system for new users. Only a hype what gets taunted all over the place, even when the only speciality of Ubuntu is it's brown theme (GNOME theme) and it's own Ubuntu-tribe to suggest only a Ubuntu when something is wanting switch from Windows.

If I offer Ubuntu for new customers, soon I only need to spend my time to install them a Mandriva because Ubuntu does not include good applications to maintant the system to be a easy to use by avarage joe or lisa!

Re:Expected

[Valcrus]

I have to agree with you there my wife is a controller for a multimillion dollar company and my father is a doctor and I doubt if either one of them could get a computer on a network unless a disk did it all for them. Its not that they aren't smart its just that they are not computer people. My father has people to do that for him and my wife has me so they have no need to learn it if they don't want to....No matter how much I would like one of them to. There are also a lot of people out there that just have no computer skills no matter how hard they try. Heck half the people I know couldn't format a hard drive if their life depended on it and that's something that I would bet anyone here can do right?.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Again, no. A swindle, at least IMO, requires intentional deception. There's none of that here. The OS is listed right along with all the other features. No fine print. If she's not competent to understand the features, she should probably have someone to help her order, then set up the machine.

To most users, those specs are the fine print. They see a picture of a computer, a price, and a block of irrelevant and unintelligible gibberish beneath it. They aren't keeping the information from her, but they aren't making it apparent enough to her either. It's their job to do so. They should at the very least seperate the Windows boxes from the Linux boxes. Make it so that somebody has to explicitly specify at some point that they want Linux.

Re:Expected

[BronsCon]

I'd mod you +10 Fucking Hilarious, but I already commented (duh, you replied to my comment).

It's interesting, though, isn't it? Someone who's used everything from an Atari 800, to an ST1040, C64, DOS-based PCs, Win 3.1, all the way through Vista, is having problems with Windows. Someone who has used Windows, in its various iterations, since the mid 1980s, who has been using Linux since mid 2006, is more comfortable and more productive using Linux on a system with 1/5 the processing power (measured in MHz*Cores -- in reality, with increases in efficiency, it's probably 1/7 or 1/8), 1/4 the RAM and 1/8 the bus bandwidth of her Vista desktop.

23 years of experience with a product and you're still not comfortable with it? Maybe it's you. Maybe not, if you're comfortable with a competing product after less than 3 years.

Re:Expected

[e2d2]

I am smarter than a 3rd grader! I think.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. Go to the Dell site, click Home & Home Office, click Laptop PCs and click on the cheapest laptop on that list. This is what she probably bought. Halfway down the page in a small, indiscreet font it specifies that it comes with Ubuntu.

Re:Expected

[n0tWorthy]

Yup, just as easy as the switch to "digital TV". There's going to be panic in the streets in February when millions of people can't follow the "simple" instructions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy-pD-M0rY4 Just because you have your geek card doesn't mean everyone should have one. I want my doctor spending his time learning the latest disease treatments NOT spending time configuring PCs.

Re:Expected

[LittleRunningGag]

http://ubuntuclips.org/

Re:Expected

[thetoadwarrior]

Not using it and use the included networking software in either Windows or Linux.

Re:Expected

[BOFHelsinki]

*whoosh* ;)

Re:Expected

[nintendo_is_a_cereal]

I'm trying to remember my verizon set up. I know I couldn't get it to work with OS X and had to reboot my MBP into Windows XP to get the modem to work right. Although IIRC this might have just been me trying to make the modem work before they actually got my service up and running. My modem isn't currently connected to any PC directly, just a router. Aside from that I use my Dell Mini 9 with Ubuntu 8.10 and Netbook Remix just fine with my Verizon service.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen modems with USB - lots of them, but I wouldn't use one, because regular ethernet works much better.

There was also a time before DSL modems had DHCP, so you *had* to run PPPoE software, which hasn't always been a default part of OSes. Here, you used to need to use the CD from the provider to get it to work.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

...If not, the formatting is mute...

Hate to be a grammar/english nazi, but the word you're looking for is "moot". Mute means something else entirely.

Re:Expected

[DeadTOm]

There's a certain willfull stupidity in the general populace. They don't know computers, they can't know them, it's an evil black box and they'll find anything possible to complain about. They can be young, old, male, female, of any race, creed to culture: they're bound together by their raw, unadulterated pigheadedness.

All I have to say is, amen brother. With as much time as I spend holding people's hands through any kind of change on their PC, I don't think it would be any more painful for them to learn a new OS, even Ubuntu.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

WHOOOOSH

Re:Expected

[Benzido]

Why on earth would she think it was possible to edit word documents in something called "OpenOffice.org"? Now if it was called "Open Office", she might have had a chance...

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Fagot ass fanboi. I fucking hate you pieces of shit.

Your ignorance is astounding. You can't even see where another opinion might also have the ability to be valid along side yours. You fucking two dimensional idiot.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact, don't offer the information to noobs... design a system so that ISPs can register a setup script, and reference with some id. Then, users click on 'Connect to Internet', enter the id from their ISP, this looks up connection instructions and sets up the account.

Re:Expected

[HuguesT]

Actually, you also easily get that effect if you exchange word documents between any two installs of Office. Even the very same version. ${DEITY} help you if you try between *different* version of Word, say 2003/2007, mac 2004 or 2008. This will end in tears as well.

The only way to go is to use Word as a word processor, i.e to enter text and structure, but not a desktop publishing platform. That later job is for things like defunct PageMaker, inDesign, Xpress, etc.

In that setting Oo.o is no worse than Word, really, and the two (or more) can interoperate quite well. Even revision marks work now.

Re:Expected

[mabinogi]

How is _any_ user supposed to know any of those details?

By reading the welcome document their ISP provides.
The only part of that they couldn't be expected to know, is the gnome-ppp part.

And the GP was talking about 3G, so in that case none of it is required anyway. Ubuntu detects it, pops up a notification saying it's detected it, and clicks you through a simple wizard consisting of no more complicated questions than "what country are you in, who is your provider?".

Re:Expected

[arkhan_jg]

Ah, I see you've worked at my office then.

The key thing to remember when working with people like this is that they have a different way of working with their computer. They might use a computer for the entirety of their working day, but they never actually learn how to use it at all.

What they do is memorise tasks that achieve specific goals. To you and me, we learn how to do an abstract process - like how email works - then adapt that process to fit to whatever we're doing at the time. If we want to do something we haven't done before, we use our standard process of looking it up on google or the help files, and follow the instructions. If we want to find and submit an RMA form, we think 'ah, that's a document. I'll edit and print that in word.' You open word, open the document, then print it to your closest printer, having learned the general process for each - or at least how to look it up. Using a different version or a different printer doesn't phase us, because we know what we're looking for, and just browse around till we find what microsoft called the action this time round.

For them though, they never learn, or want to learn the process. As you say, it's a magic black box. They don't know it's word. They barely know it's a document. What they DO know is that, when they were shown how to do it on the PC they inherited from their predecessor, when they want to process an RMA request they go to the 4th icon along, 2 down on the 'screensaver' and double click. They then go here, here and here and write this and that bit of information in. They then go to the bar at the top, click the big round button, and select the 4th option down, and click the 2nd option. And the piece of paper comes out the printer.

Then their computer breaks. They can't click the 4th icon along, 2nd down any more because the screen is all black. They ring tech support to tell them they can't process RMA forms right now, and they need to do one really urgently, and get a load of gibberish questions about what version of office they're using, and is it in their documents thingie, and can they open it on their neighbours PC or whatever, and what they WANT is someone to come out and fix it, right now, so they can send off this RMA form like usual that the manager told them to send off urgently. What they get is a new computer, and now NOTHING is where it should be. How can I work like this? where's my H: drive button gone? How can I possibly do RMA forms when it's not ANYWHERE on my screensaver?

My solution? Wait for them all to die and be replaced by their children.

Re:Expected

[DeadTOm]

I'll join the movement. Let's start a website.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

their tech support can and should support her connecting via any os, she should be suing them

Great, could you please help me setting up WiFi on a UNIVAC, in IBM OS/360, CP/M or on a PDP7? They can and should support ANY OS, after all.

You, sir, are a fucking idiot.

Re:Expected

[Larryish]

Instead of thin clients or dumb terminals, maybe they could be thin terminals for dumb clients?

Re:Expected

[DeadTOm]

What's really sad is that there's no reason both Dell and Verizon can't contract out to someone that is both willing and capable of supporting Linux systems.

The problem isn't a lack of wanting to find good people that know linux that will work for them, it's finding good people that know linux that are willing to work for the peanuts that they pay their techs. It's pathetic what call centers pay and no self respecting tech is going to work for those wages unless they're in dire need of employment.
On the other hand, there are plenty of guys working in the electronics section at walmart for $7 an hour that would be happy to take the one week class the call center has that "certifies" them and become a help desk tech. Hence, the frustration many of us experience when we call for tech support.

Re:Expected

[Slime-dogg]

I use a Verizon 3G wireless usb on my Ubuntu box and it couldn't be simpler. Run gnome-ppp Device: /dev/ACM0 Type: USB Click 'Connect' That's all there is to it.

Simpler would be "run gnome-ppp, it detects devices, prompts with the devices in an understandable language, asks for a phone #, and goes."

This is already too close to the hardware for a regular user. The user also has to be aware that gnome-ppp is what they should use to connect to the internet.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Go to the library. Most, especially school libraries, have computers with wires, and sometimes without, that get you to the internet. Or, to a friends or neighbor or internet cafe or ... shall I continue? I agree with previous assessments, that this was either a BS story to try and make Linux look bad or someone who requires periodic shocks to remind them to breath.

Re:Expected

[mrchaotica]

Look, there's usability problems, and then there's PEBKAC problems. This was a PEBKAC problem. This exact same chain of events would have occurred if her computer had been running OS X (because it would also not be able to run Verizon's Windows software or the Windows version of MS Office). Does that mean OS X has usability issues too? Of course not!

The real problem here is that she doesn't have the basic competence to use any computer, Linux or not. Computer literacy is nothing more or less than the ability and inclination to try stuff until you figure it out, or at least have explored enough to ask reasonable questions. It's like regular literacy: literacy is not about being able to glyphs with phonemes, it's about understanding the ideas being conveyed by those glyphs or phonemes. Rote memorization of tasks (e.g., "move the arrow to the blue 'e' and press the button to start the Internet") is not understanding, and is not literacy.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows is the standard consumer OS. Apple is the second standard.

Attempts to differentiate from their way of doing things are fine for power users, but noobs don't need to deal with that, they need to do WORK.

Which Windows?

• Windows 3.1
• Windows 3.11
• Win95
• Win98
• Win98 SE
• WinNT 3.1
• Win 4
• Windows ME
• Windows 2000
• Windows XP Home
• Windows XP Professional
• Windows XP Media Center
• Windows Vista Home
• Windows Vista Pro
• Windows Vista Media Center
• Windows Vista Ultimate

These are all different products and platforms. And its also not even an all inclusive list. If you don't think they're different, try and walk somebody through a wireless setup on Vista Media Center, when all you have to look at is XP pro.

Re:Expected

[mrchaotica]

And has her high school not taught her anything about computers?

Now that's one part of the story I could believe! Throughout elementary, middle, and high school, every normal (i.e., not gifted program or CCNA) computer class my school offered consisted entirely of following lists of instructions by rote. No understanding was required, and no understanding was created. Anybody who had any actual computer literacy whatsoever either avoided the classes because they were useless, or used them as free slack-off time.

Re:Expected

[mrchaotica]

They say the main impediment to speech and writing in babies is motor skills, not understanding. So it's not unreasonable to think that if the kid can physically manage to press the keys he could communicate, even if he can't yet control his vocal cords well enough to do so verbally.

Re:Expected

[commodore64_love]

Another idea is to simply tell her making backups from c: to c: is a waste of time, because if the drive fails, it will not only erase the original files but also the backups. And ask her to please stop.

Tell her the proper place to store files is on the network drive, which is automatically backed-up daily.

Re:Expected

[mark72005]

I think the distinction is pretty clear. With a Windows-based PC, she could have Office pre-installed, pop in her Verizon disk, and go. Full functionality.

There area a lot of brilliant people out there who don't spend time learning how to configure alternate computer operating systems.

Who shares blame here? Verizon, Dell, and the user too.

But the Linux community needs to stop belittling people like this, listen to their problems, and address them.

Re:Expected

[DeadTOm]

Anyone know of a good netnanny for Linux?

I set up squid on my sons' PC and only allow them to see specific sites, blocking everything else. If they want access to another site they have to sit down with me and show it to me and I'll add it to the list. Not as great as net nanny but it does the job. There are probably better ways to go about it.

Re:Expected

[JAlexoi]

Actually a phone conversation is a "one-on-one discussion".

Re:Expected

[Tisha_AH]

It is odd that she went through the trouble to purchase a lap-top to do her classes yet could not find the energy to work out a simple connectivity issue to Verizon.

Sure OpenOffice is "different". So is every version of Windowz or MS Office from it's earlier incarnations. Maybe she does not know what the "save as" menu pull-down means.

It seems like a strange case of apathy; "I bought a computer and it is not smarter than me". Even for many of the "computer illiterate", they do not stay totally clueless for very long. If the class was important to her, she should have made some sort of effort.

"Back in the day" before the WWW, we did things through BBS'es, Telnet sessions, Archie or the dreaded 3270 session. It took a marginal familiarity to get a connection going but remember how excited we would get over the differences between xmodem, ymodem or zmodem?

I try not to be jaded but it bewilders me when everyone expects a "plug and play" world. Life is hard, as Larry Niven once wrote "immortality is not for sissies". Are we devolving as a species or are our self-expectations that low?

Similar excuses used over the ages;
1. The dog ate my homework
2. I didn't come to class as it starts to early and I was out partying all night long.
3. Talk to the hand.
4. My car ran out of gas so I did not come to work for the month. Can I still get my pay-check?

Maybe she lives in the wilderness and there are no computer literate people around for thousands of miles. I am surprised that she had the energy to dial the Dell tech support number and ask questions about "what is Ubuntu".... Then again, maybe she didn't.

Re:Expected

[cjb658]

You are underestimating her.

Be the girl airhead, she'd likely have a boyfriend who could have helped her to configure the lappy as she wished.

My first impression is that the girl wanted to skip classes and was just looking for excuse. And she found.

A more likely story: she promises some geek she'll have sex with him if he fixes her laptop. He fixes it, and she decides she'd rather not.

Re:Expected

[Macrat]

Um, no. Nothing here suggests that she ordered a Windows machine and got Ubuntu instead.

Or that she even knows what Windows is.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

I installed Ubuntu on my nephew's laptop and he just figured it out. Although some "computer expert" down the street told him that his laptop was designed for Windows and therefore Linux wouldn't work on it. I also installed it for both of my aunts and once they sat down to use it they figured it out. Ubuntu is very user friendly so I don't get the people saying that only techies get it - it's simply not true.

I also somewhat agree with the person above that said it's not possible to order an Ubuntu laptop by mistake. There are only about 5 computers on the Dell website that you can get Ubuntu on. If she doesn't know how a computer works, she probably shouldn't have ordered the computer by herself. I also don't find it believable that Dell wouldn't give her Windows. Don't they make money on Windows as opposed to Ubuntu? The funny thing is that even if she did get Windows on the computer, it does not automatically come with Microsoft Office.

The fault is mostly hers in this case. If she called Dell's technical support and told them why she thought she needed Windows they probably would have been able to tell her that her computer was capable of doing what she needed to do. (I wonder if the computer came with any kind of documents about how to use the computer.) Even still, why didn't she call Verizon or MATC to tell them of her situation.

I think what Ubuntu needs is marketing. The battle between Linux and Windows is all about marketing. Also, Linux users have to be more patient with Windows users who may be converting and offer suggestions instead of calling folks idiots.

Re:Expected

[Dark_Gravity]

...many people have voluntarily decided to stop thinking on the day of their graduation.

And many more people have voluntarily decided to stop thinking earlier than that!

Re:Expected

[Drinking Bleach]

Pretty easy on Linux, too. Just move all the contents of $HOME from machine 1 to machine 2.

Re:Expected

[pablodiazgutierrez]

Too late. If you can imagine it, there's porn of it.

Re:Expected

[canuck57]

There's no way you can expect an average user to figure out how to compile drivers or even use wine to make this work.

Depends, if it is packaged nicely. But I don't see drivers here as being an issue, it was ordered with Ubuntu. Should be a few questions up front and on you go.

It's her fault partially for not asking the right questions beforehand, but it's Dell's fault for not making sure she understood what she was getting and not supporting her after the fact.

I see it as 100% her fault.

As others have pointed out she was looking for a reason to fail. Does not have what it takes to get through MATC. Pure an simple. Hey, I think the picture above, she appears attractive but to go to college you have to turn your brain on.

Second point, she could have bought a MS package. Read the little book, invited a friend over or something and changed the OS. College students can't give up on minor obsticles.

Not everone attending college should graduate just because they show up. You are there to learn how to learn and read. Even what you learn may not be applied later, but you know then how to learn and rationalize.

Re:Expected

[owlstead]

Yes, but that's true for both OpenOffice and Word 2007. You can easily set the default in both application suites to .doc as well.

Re:Expected

[berashith]

well, it was supposed to be a bad joke. I should have ended it with "Max , its nap time, no more slashdot !" .
But, he can press keys very well, usually while yelling beeeeep . He did teach me that f11 gives a great minimal browser in firefox, and has sent many half complete emails to my boss and co-workers.

Re:Expected

[FreakWent]

the formatting could get munged a little bit, [...], more formatting can get changed or lost. It will, I assure you, end in tears.

F.U.D.

Re:Expected

[sholsinger]

Hey, cool... but how does she get to it without the Internet?

Re:Expected

[JWSmythe]

    I only saw that with old versions of OO. More recent ones (like in the last 2 or 3 years) have been flawless.

    The only change I had to make was to set the default saving filetype. They were sending to off-site folks, and they got confused on how to open the OO document. :) After I made the change, not a word was said.

Re:Expected

[FreakWent]

what's an 'application'; like a job submission? or are applications the new name for 'product' on your face and hair?

The #1 barrier is lingual, IMHO.

Re:Expected

[JWSmythe]

    I've never seen it registered like that, but I have known quite a few providers who record what MAC had connected. If someone pulled the network cable out of their PC, and put it in their laptop, they couldn't get online. The solution is to unplug your modem for 15 minutes. I don't think it's actually a modem thing, but when their routers see the modem offline for such a period, it drops the record.

    I know on a Cisco 5500 (CatOS), this can be accomplished with "port security". You can allow either a static MAC, or only a particular number of MAC's on a port. Say you have a switchport to each desk in an office. If you set a timeout of say 15 minutes, then someone wouldn't be able to bring in their laptop and a hub and use both. Even just switching the cable over would be worthless, and leave them disconnected.

    Doing this in an office is one thing, where you'd know to call the NOC and have them clear the security for the port. Doing it with a residential provider would be a nightmare. Every time someone buys a new computer, they'd have to call in and ask for their port to be cleared, or install the software on their PC? People loose disks. If someone is say moving into a house, when they bring their computer up, they'll still be moving stuff around. In 6 months or a year when they buy a new computer, they won't have any clue where that disk is, and this would then require a site visit by a tech to deliver a disk.

    For reference, the CatOS command is a little something like this:

Console> (enable) set port security 10/1 enable age 15 maximum 1 violation shutdown

Of course, my own port is port security disabled. :)

Console> (enable) set port security 10/1 disable
Port 10/1 security disabled.

(10/1 is an idle port, so I was playing with that for this demo)

    I don't know quite how the providers do it. I suspect every user gets a dynamic vlan, so it doesn't matter how they end up on the switch, but that's beyond my area of experience.

Re:Expected

[FreakWent]

well argued sir, you have some strong counterpoints there!

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Come on guys, if we're not willing to concede that maybe Linux isn't for everyone, that maybe in some context, God forbid, Windows is OK, then it really only hurts Linux. She says she was talked into Ubuntu. From a Customer Service perspective it doesn't matter if she was ignorant. Give her XP, or if Dell really has a grudge, they can give her Vista. Let it go...

Re:Expected

[totally bogus dude]

I've definitely noticed formatting changes when using OOo rather than Word, but not enough to really worry me. It certainly would annoy some people though. I think I've even seen cases where the page padding was off enough that a formerly one-page document became two pages.

The worst case I've seen is our timesheet spreadsheet. Functionally it works, however quite a bit of the formatting goes haywire. The timesheet has the day names written vertically spanning a few rows, which OOo doesn't seem to support at all. I also haven't been able to work out how to merge cells in OOo Calc, which should a pretty straightforward thing.

Recently we received a call sheet in Excel format for some EMC hardware. The phone number to call doesn't appear when opened in Calc. I haven't investigated why (it's just a call sheet after all, and I have a VM with XP + Office 2007 handy) but it is definitely not FUD.

As much as I love OOo and use it in preference to MS Office, it definitely isn't 100% compatible.

Re:Expected

[kaizokuace]

This is what annoys me with a lot of people I meet. They don't generally have inquisitive minds. Even a little curiosity would help. If something doesn't work they don't go and try to figure it out. In your wiper example, wouldn't it occur to you that the manufacturer would give you control over the wiper? It's legally required that all vehicles' wipers automatically wipe at a certain bpm. The reaction to not knowing how to do something should be to figure it out, not just leave it be and pretend it didn't happen! cry.

Re:Expected

[JWSmythe]

    Oh, that's great! I love it!

    The only thing I've built from their "collection" was the remote control. I was doing some work with .. well, playing with water and electricity. :) I decided rather than killing myself, I should make it a little safer, so I built out a box with a GFI outlet, a lower amp circuit breaker than the building had, and a power switch. I only popped the GFI a few times.

    BTW, for the folks who play with trying to make hydrogen thingies for their cars, more voltage is better. 110VAC put through a full bridge rectifier makes an awful lot of bubbles. Melted my leads, but made way WAY more bubbles than any lower voltage, pulsed frequency, or fancy wave pattern. Ya, I spent quite a while experimenting with that.

    110VAC->110VDC worked wonders.

    12VDC -> 30KVDC (automotive ignition coil) only made sparks towards the water with a gap, and no bubbles. Direct contact seemed like nothing was happening, other than I could hear the coil discharging. With a hand made signal generator, and something that'd make a nice 2" spark on demand, I had lots of fun making musical sparks though. Kind of a small scale musical Tesla coil (check youtube for those). I never bothered to make it be able to play midi music though, I coded all of mine in by hand. :) The equipment didn't like the EMP much though. Never took out my laptop (8 feet away), but it upset my control board (2 feet away) a lot, and made the cordless phones very crackly. :) Oh, and the cats didn't like it much.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty easy on Linux, too. Just move all the contents of $HOME from machine 1 to machine 2.

Ever try that between machines with different versions of GNOME and KDE? Or Firefox? Even slight differences up or (especially) down can cause problems. Makes shared network home directories fun.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

You actually just brought up both a reason I don't like using windows, and a reason most of my current linux installs (except on new systems) date back 4+ years: Backing up and reinstalling all your files to all your previous locations can be a REAL PITA.

The biggest current pain for me however was having my windows 2000 install crash (with a registry so corrupted that repair/reinstalling windows would simply lead to the registry bloating a bit further, and oh, if you delete the registry, windows can't tell that there was a previous install there, and will overwrite all your old document and settings files... oops.)

My point here being, if this is a system you've used for years, have applications post win-2k installed (where they either dump things in the my documents folder, or in the hidden application specific data folder) you may lose your 40+ hour videogame saves, all your preferences for whichever key apps you use. All your logs for your IMs, etc. And if not, you may spend WEEKS carefully copying files back to where they are, or worse yet lose some of them because reinstalling the app overwrite the old preferences (not many apps do this, but there are still a few!) Plus any settings that are foolishly stored in the registry for windows or /etc for linux will likely be lost and if they aren't will likely entail carefully checking that they won't clobber settings that an updated version of the software needs (I've had this problem borking a fedora install then trying to manually reinstall config files after using a new version to reinstall. In Fedora's case reinstalling at least used to be faster than doing an upgrade as well, so I'd just wait a couple of versions then reinstall it, probably along with a disk upgrade so it'd still fit :D)

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

The linux powered Dell laptops cost more than the Windows models, doesn't make much sense that someone would pay more for something they knew did not work as well for them

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yes, of course! Because we really are all that fantastic - watch all the girls paw at us whilst we try desperately to not go AFK. All this shit continually spouted here is just fucking embarrassing. There are so many things wrong with our situation it's unbelievable. She may well have been ignorant to some information we know but it doesn't mean any less of her or others. Why should someone even know what Windows is? Or why they should sit up and take notice? How many people take notice of every single word on screen or in a conversation? People don't work like this.

We all do the same human things with different areas of life. A lot of people forced into technology are not there willingly. These days one has to. If my mates talk about cars or soccer it goes like this "blah blah foot blah bah flange blahhhh".

Shit I`ve seen so many Macs sold in a similar way to this OS mix up.

Answer this for Ignorant Ms. Normal Busy Living:

How many OS variants? Why so many? What's the difference? What history? (business/usage issues/support etc)... I would carry on but Ms. Living just said 'fuck this' and went to pick strawberries abroad.

Re:Expected

[Firethorn]

12VDC -> 30KVDC (automotive ignition coil) only made sparks towards the water with a gap, and no bubbles.

Probably not enough amps/watts. Higher voltage only helps in the process if you can feed through enough amps to keep it up.

Used a number of 9V batteries to do some of that back as a kid.

I wonder what would happen if I 'borrow' my dryer socket. ;)

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd think that Novell would want to keep that kind of solid, no surprises user experience, that they'd want to position SUSE as a solid, reliable, no surprises business distro. Instead, it feels more like a hobbyist/enthusiast distro than something from a major software vendor.

I agree that KDE 4 was pushed out before it was done, even in OpenSuse 11.0. However:

You're using openSUSE, not SLES/SLED/SLE or whatever the "enterprise" (a.k.a. semi-tested, more conservative, longer support) editions are called now. Like most Linuxes, openSUSE and Fedora ARE hobbyist/enthusiast distros that tend to favor the cool new versions of software over stability.

It is unfortunate that openSUSE 11.1 chose KDE 4 as a default and feels less solid as a result. At least KDE 3 is still available in 11.1 and possibly one more release.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

For straight install to installed desktop speed, and ease of use, ubuntu wins hands down, and I've used a bit of everything since Redhat 4.x or 5.2 (And slackware 3.0 prior to that, but RH was obviously a much more userfriendly install, although archiac compared to modern installers. Not far out of line compared to DOS/Windows installers of that era in fact.)

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

They said she was an MBA major, so isn't this par for the course? :D

Re:Expected

[walkswithwolf]

I will start by saying that I have not used Ubuntu in a while, so things may have changed. Also, while I have worked for Dell, I have mixed feelings about their products (no, I am not a Dell fan boy).

First, when I had a fresh install of Ubuntu on the computer, to get the networking setup, I just had to plug in the network cable. By default, the network card was configured to DHCP. Granted, that won't work for PPPoE connections, but if you have a router that is pre-configured properly, you do not need to worry about PPPoE. Technically, any Windows based computer does this as well, if it was pre-configured properly.

Second, Ubuntu, by default, has all the basic legal applications pre-installed (like word processor, spreadsheet, etc). I say legal, because mp3 and DVD playback requires extra steps due to US laws (although Dell is the only company that I know of that ships Ubuntu with a legal DVD player pre-installed). The question then becomes, does the user KNOW the difference between a brand name and the type of application it is? For example, that MS Word is a word processor, or that Internet Explorer is a web browser and NOT the Internet?

Third, Dell has tried to make using Ubuntu as simple as possible (I was working at Dell when they introduced Ubuntu systems, and I had access to some of the documentation). Dell ships their Ubuntu systems ready to go, no tinkering needed, all drivers pre-loaded, etc (with the above mentioned mp3 playback issue). Or they did while I was there.

Granted, if you just download a Linux ISO file, things are going to be different. And yes, Linux is not for everyone.

I think part of the problems is that Microsoft dumbed down the OS too much, and now computer users expect a lot of hand holding when they use any OS. Then again, that is MY opinion and yours may vary from it.

Re:Expected

[svunt]

OpenOffice is a perfect replacement for Word

Sigh. No, it's not. It's a weak, ugly, poor imitation of Word, at best. Seriously, have a look at Word 2007 and OpenOffice side by side. Now I'm no M$ shill or fanboy, I boot to Ubuntu or XP depending on my needs at the time. There are a number of things that are just fine in Linux, but Word shits all over OpenOffice for functionality, ease of use, features, aesthetics, and just about everything else.

Re:Expected

[deraj123]

Thank you for that - I wasn't crazy about the funny mod - wasn't meant to be funny at all.

Re:Expected

[lsatenstein]

Why did she miss 2 semesters? That is 6 mo time. If I had a problem, I would have contacted a friend for a friendly copy of whatever, and dumped Ubuntu. Perhaps she was very clever to recognize that it was UBUNTU, but wanted to get a free copy of that other software for her laptop.

Re:Expected

[Neoprofin]

And what happens when you have unsupported third party hardware, like the article?

Re:Expected

[johnny0099]

You're my "Hero for the Day."

Re:Expected

[bh_doc]

I think Einstein was on to something when he said, "It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education."

Re:Expected

[Lost Engineer]

Actually last time I called I followed the instructions, and I'm glad I did. It turns out that my modem, not unlike a baby duckling, binds to the first MAC address it sees when it boots up. Therefore you must power it on *first*, wait for ready light to come on, *then* plug in the router. If you tried plugging in, say, your laptop first to test the connection, you have to reboot the modem. Lesson learned, I guess.

Re:Expected

[Almahtar]

VZaccess, like many drivers disks that come with hardware, is most likely just there to get the vendor's logo hanging out in your tray for marketing purposes.

Most devices (especially USB) don't need you to use the CD they came with in any OS, Windows included.

Re:Expected

[Lost Engineer]

I second this. This is the most common user error on the computer: refusal to even try tweaking the settings a bit before freaking out and calling me.

Re:Expected

[kaizokuace]

seriously, I mean, how did we all learn how to do computer stuff? take a class or something!!? hah! It's all through curiosity and tinkering. You don't learn till you try. Well, I guess a class or a degree is nice to learn programming and systems more in depth but you get the idea.

Re:Expected

[Lost Engineer]

Very true. I can't tell you how much time I would save if every user got a piece of paper with the relevant router settings in big bold letters with instructions not to misplace it. Usually when I try to fix people's internet remotely they lack this information, and I'm left grasping at straws trying to google what XYZ ISP uses. Even better they could (like my ISP Cox) abandon the practice of using PPPoE for broadband. What's the point of that anyways? Is that seriously the only way DSL providers can control access to their networks?

Re:Expected

[Almahtar]

It's a harsh truth, but for some people college is just not a sound investment.

A conversation I heard the other day in a cafe:

girl: "Yeah, my parents are lame because they can't pay for my college. I'd have to get LOANS. Your parents can pay for your college, why shouldn't they share the wealth? They should help me get through college."
guy across from her:*a bit stunned* ... says nothing.

That wasn't too bad, but earlier in the conversation he'd told her he sold his iPod to pay his cell phone bill and she was up in arms:

girl: "Why would ANYONE sell their iPod? I mean.. why not your car?"
guy: "My car. Seriously. For an extra $100. How would I get to work?"
girl: "Ok then... your cell phone, your snowboard gear, or something, but your iPod?!?"

I'll say it again. For some, college is just not a sound investment.

Re:Expected

[greenbird]

Fagot ass fanboi. I fucking hate you pieces of shit. Your ignorance is astounding. You can't even see where another opinion might also have the ability to be valid along side yours. You fucking two dimensional idiot.

Steve? Is that you?

Re:Expected

[JWSmythe]

    That's exactly what it is. You only have so much power (watts). By increasing the volts so dramatically, I lost the watts.

    If you were to push 220VAC through a full bridge rectifier, that would make even more, assuming it was 2 phase. If it's 1 phase, you'd have the same power. American houses are 1 phase. They're actually two hot leads, and one neutral. They provide twice the amperage, because there are two independant wires, and two breakers, even though they are bound together in the breaker box.

    In theory, if you had a low amperage requirement on a 220VAC device, you could connect the two hots to the hot wire on a 110VAC outlet, and the neutral to the neutral. Don't do it though, it breaks all kinds of rules (like ways not to burn your house down). I don't know of any 220VAC appliances in the US that you could get away with that with. Really, all that I've seen in common use are electric dryers, electric stoves, and arc welders.

Re:Expected

[Lillesvin]

Linux is still nowhere near the point where a non-techie will consider adopting it.

Well, the problem here isn't really the techie-ness of the adopter... If Verizon would bother to make and ship instructions for Linux, there would be no problem at all. She loaded the Verizon CD-ROM, nothing happened, and then concluded it was probably this "Ubuntu"-thing, since the OS was the only variable in this case.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

You need to start finding some smarter friends.

Nah, seriously. Your right, windows is no better, it's just that they are somewhat familiar with windows and know people so it isn't as obvious. Put them in the loop where they are away from that safety structure and poof, they will freak out.

I have a former boss who keeps telling me he wants me to help him install Linux. I won't do it because I know how he is, he won't invest one minute of learning, he will point and click until it works or breaks then call me.reci

Re:Expected

[Fallen Seraph]

According to TFA, she'd never heard about it before, so she was careless when making her order. Hence, her own fault. And as another poster above said, it's likely she decided not to get Windows on it when she called tech support because they told her they'd have to charge her to install windows (since, obviously, Windows is not free). I mean fuck, even the goddamned GeekSquad at Best Buy know how to use and configure linux (or at least, one or two of them usually do, and the rest google it) from what I've seen, so blaming her dropping out on her laptop is the part that's "utter bullshit".

Re:Expected

[bytta]

From TFA: As a result, with no internet and no Microsoft Word, Schubert dropped out of MATC [...]
Schubert's computer came with Open Office [...] She says she wasn't aware it was compatible.

She had a system she didn't know how to use, and didn't bother to learn (and no one seemed to help).

This is why [insert year here] was not the year of the desktop.

Re:Expected

[Keeper Of Keys]

Actually, I do think Windows is a bit better in terms of usability than Ubuntu, though it's hard to know for sure as I am a born tinkerer and have been tinkering with Windows for a decade. In many ways OS X has usability licked, but IMO at the expense of power users - I have just started working in a mac shop and find that many things I take for granted on Windows simply do not exist in OS X (the most perverse example would be the inability to resize windows by dragging any edge; in OS X you have just the bottom right corner, which of course may not even be on the screen).

But I think the dream of 'it just works' is part of the problem: computers are complex beasties and while it's great that so many people are using them, inevitably everyone will at some time or another encounter a problem without an obvious solution. At this point, they will either fiddle around, search forums, etc until they solve it - and learn a bit more about their system in the process - or throw up their hands in horror (and get on the phone to someone in the first category). These people - like the woman in TFA - will never learn to fix their own problems so inevitably their fear of computers gets compounded.

One could reasonably ask "why should she learn a whole system, all she wants to do is a bit of reading and writing?" To which I suppose the answer might be: a general purpose computer is overkill for her needs - a dumb terminal would be a better fit. But that's not the culture we're in.

Personally I like the fact that everyman has this amazing tool at their disposal, and in a generation or two these problems are going to go away because everyone will be completely comfortable with computer systems.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Ditto.

I got my 74 year old father to use an Ubuntu computer just fine. (Which was a former XP computer that got borked so bad by malware so that the XP install disk failed to work on it. Ubuntu rescued it from the trash.) It had some troubles at first caused by going to Hardy from Gutsy, but now under Intrepid it seems as solid as any other computer in the house. So he now he can poke around the internet without fear of viruses and the such. Not only does he know how to use FireFox for web browsing and email, but with some modest instruction - he's able to bring up VLC on his own and listen to internet radio via shoutcast. Only trouble is that he's still fuzzy on what's internet and what's actually on the computer, but I've seen that problem with all kinds of techno-illiterates regardless of age.

If the Wisconsin lady had any clue and the will-power to stick with things college-wise, I'm sure a classmate, teaching assistant, or instructor would have gotten her Ubuntu machine to work on the internet. All she would have had to do was ask around a bit. Sure there are clueless people about in computer classes, but more often than not you'll also have a few that know what they're doing as well. Such geeks would have answers, and the problem would have been solved easily.

Re:Expected

[melodraama]

In any case Debian 8.10 is reported to work less than perfectly on my hardware...

There is no Debian 8.10, current stable release is 4.0.

Re:Expected

[dotancohen]

Damn, someone needs to make some computer tech saves hot blond chicks porn. This would totally work.

Sign, rule #34:
http://www.google.com/search?q=nerd%20porn

Re:Expected

[MikeBabcock]

That specific operating systems shouldn't be required for school probably escaped the school administrators.

Re:Expected

[LuisAnaya]

In your case, you might be stuck the VZ. I swapped from Verizon to Cablevision after dealing with some guy in Taiwan in a lousy VOIP line after spending 2 hours with a guy in India asking me to turn on or off my DSL modem. The problem was already documented from their tech that my line was too far from the central office and the DSL link was unreliable. It was clearly an SS7 problem, but those drones did not want to hear about it.

The day I disconnected from them there was a meek satisfaction hearing the sales rep. begging for me to stay.

Re:Expected

[jbolden]

OK I tried. Right after I click that what I see on the right hand column is:

Ubuntu Linux version 8.04.1
Obsidian Black
1Yr Ltd Warranty and Mail-In Service
512MB DDR2 at 533MHz
4GB Solid State Drive
No Camera Option

It is the very first line item.

Re:Expected

[Cytotoxic]

With apologies to Joey, the word is Moo. As in "the point is moo." You know, like what a cow says: "moo". It doesn't mean anything. It's moo.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Joe was in his front yard minding his own business when Obama walked up to him.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Any "university" that has a required class in using Microsoft Office, is not a university, it's an expensive high school.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

I found an ubuntu laptop in under 2 clicks.

Re:Expected

[DaVince21]

A normal person? Wrong. This is the sort of thing that is going to happen when you give *nix to a person who is simply used to completely different tools and a different way of working.

Re:Expected

[DaVince21]

"I don't know" belongs to the statement "I don't know WHAT solution there is". "I'm sure" belongs to the statement that "I'm sure there IS at least a solution". So, yeah.

Re:Expected

[Firethorn]

In theory, if you had a low amperage requirement on a 220VAC device, you could connect the two hots to the hot wire on a 110VAC outlet, and the neutral to the neutral

Actually, you'd need to connect the hots in seperate sockets, on different 'legs' in order to get 220 out of it.

Otherwise, the only thing you'll be powering is any equipment inside the device that's actually 110V. Maybe a light or something.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that most people think of a golf club or Dale Earnhardt Jr. when they hear the word driver. Linux is growing but still has a steeper learning curve than the other OS's, and most non-technical people I know don't want to be bothered with learning that much when all they want is email and the internet. And many linux supporters don't make it very inviting since they condemn anyone who needs help as an idiot or a MS slave.

Re:Expected

[Lulfas]

In the case with the extremely small marketshare that FOSS software/tools have, that is the normal person. Perhaps the word average would be better applied.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, your 8 year old uses Linux but I bet he/she did not install OpenOffice or configure a DSL connection.

If you don't know how to do that on Linux, then you are part of the majority of computer users.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a similar problem when I rebuilt my sister in laws pc. I had it all working fine, connected to her new ISP and thought all done. Then she asked me to set her email up. Her friend at set it up. She told she used to get into it with an icon here, she pointed at the desktop. She didn't have a clue if it opened outlook and used her old ISP's servers, if it was webmail and was a link to open yahoo, hotmail or gmail in IE. She just kept telling me it was here. She didn't know her email address that would have given me a clue. At this point she decided I didn't know anything and she'd wait for her friend to come round.

Re:Expected

[trigpoint]

The hard part about Linux is the initial setup. Especially finding, installing, and configuring drivers to work with all of your various hardware. Since Dell does all that part before shipping the boxes,[1] yeah, it really does "just work" by the time the consumer gets it.

---

I have a Dell Inspiron, which came with Ubuntu, and everything does work. I assume the modem worked I never tried it. It was, its now running Fedora 10, a totally standard Ubuntu Feisty install and it did come with OO. What Dell had done was to choose the right hardware. It has Intel wireless hardware, rather than broadcom.

Re:Expected

[cloudmaster]

Whether or not I could've fixed the problems isn't the point. The point is that there were no problems to fix. I bought a Linux machine, and out of the box, it does the simple things people want to do. There's a phone number in the box someone could call for help if they really needed it; but just clicking "web", "email", "spreadsheet", or "documents" is about as simple as it gets...

Re:Expected

[JWSmythe]

    Well, a 220v breaker is really attached to one leg of the 220 coming into the house. You usually have two hot leads, and one goes on each side of your breaker panel. You'll notice that any 220 breakers are only on one side. If you had two 110v lines in different phases, they'd need to be on both sides.

    Since both hots on a residential 220v are coming from the same bus, splitting it at the breaker box, or with a little junction in your living room makes exactly the same electrical potential. Well, except for the fact that the bus can pass much more power, and two heavy leads can carry much more current. :)

   

Re:Expected

[Firethorn]

Well, a 220v breaker is really attached to one leg of the 220 coming into the house.

220 comes into the house on 2 wires. US systems utilize a 'split phase' system. 220 into the house. Essentially all 110V circuits in the house are in two big circuits in series with each other, balanced by the house ground.

You usually have two hot leads, and one goes on each side of your breaker panel. You'll notice that any 220 breakers are only on one side. If you had two 110v lines in different phases, they'd need to be on both sides.

Ever notice how 220 breakers are twice as wide as 110 breakers? The side doesn't matter, going up and down, every other slot is the opposite hot.

Breakers Power bus inside panel, breakers plug in on center line.
  A - A |--- |
  B - B | ---| A + A = 0V
  A - A |--- | A + B = 220V
  B - B | ---| A or B + N = 110V
  A - A |--- |
  B - B | ---|

Since both hots on a residential 220v are coming from the same bus, splitting it at the breaker box,

Seriously, speaking as a guy who replaced multiple fuse boxes with a circuit breaker panel and has installed multiple outlets, I strongly suggest you don't do any electrical work. At least until you read much more into the subject.

1. Residential 220V comes in on TWO wires, transferred to 2 rails inside the panel, as illustrated by the little diagram above.
2. The only 'split' in the breaker box would be the neutral/ground, it doesn't touch the rails. At least not without going through a circuit.

little junction in your living room makes exactly the same electrical potential. Well, except for the fact that the bus can pass much more power, and two heavy leads can carry much more current.

Little junction? Are you referring to a sub-panel? You're not getting 220V out of a 110V socket without a transformer or rewiring. A 220V sub panel will be fed with 4 wires; 2 hots, neutral, and ground. Ground and neutral, while ultimately coming from the same ground, isn't to be joined except at the main panel for safety. I've never had something that could be called a 'junction' in a living room.

You're right about heavier leads carrying more power, but a 12 Gauge wire can safely carry 20 amps, whether it's 110V or 220V. Outside of certain pieces of professional level shop equipment, you don't have many devices in that range. Most residential 220V circuits start at 30A and 10 gauge wire.

Re:Expected

[jbolden]

Thank you. Glad it helped.

Re:Expected

[JWSmythe]

    I was pretty sure the boxes I've looked at have a single bar down each side for their hot, one from each incoming hot line. Next time I'm in a box, I'll have a look.

    I really don't do anything with 220v, so it really doesn't matter much for me. :)

Re:Expected

[mrinvader]

hook pins 1,3 to neutral, and 2,6 to hot of a 220 compatible plug and find your nearest 220 outlet. should do nicely

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Repeat after me; You are an idiot, an idiot, a goddamn fucking idiot. You are an idiot, an idiot, a goddamn fucking idiot.

Re:Expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Try explaining that to the 120 users "lucky" enough to have been upgraded to Orofice2007 whilst the other 60 users wait their turn. Fuck docx.

Re:Expected

[jbolden]

I had that with a Verizon DSL line. It was just a setting that could be changed via the web configuration. Actually I used Linux to solve that, because with Linux you can set the broadcast MAC address to whatever you want.

Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Get someone smarter to do your work....like a rock.

it figures,

[madcarrots]

why are the cute ones always dumb?

Re:it figures,

[Shakrai]

why are the cute ones always dumb?

Take comfort in Judge Judy's quote: Beauty fades, but dumb is forever.

Re:it figures,

[Spazztastic]

why are the cute ones always dumb?

Take comfort in Judge Judy's quote: Beauty fades, but dumb is forever.

Or Ron White's line: You can't fix stupid.

Re:it figures,

[Todd Fisher]

Or Forrest Gump's line: Lieutenant Dannnn! Ice Cream!

Re:it figures,

[Anonymous Coward]

why are the cute ones always dumb?

My theory is this:
Because pretty people get a lot more attention than other people from a young age, they do not need to study hard or think more to prove themselves. They'll be happy with all this attention without doing anything for it.

Of course, this theory does not mean that all pretty people are stupid, only that it's more likely that pretty people are less smart because they perhaps never learned to make an effort. :-)

Re:it figures,

[meist3r]

Or Bill Engvall: "Here's your sign"

Re:it figures,

[Anonymous Coward]

Or CmdrTaco's quote: "I'll know Slashdot's jumped the shark when people start quoting Judge Judy."

Re:it figures,

[Raven17]

She is a Cheesehead from WI. What do you expect?

Re:it figures,

[Anonymous Coward]

Or Smokey's line: "You got to be a STUPID muthafucka to get fired on your day off."

Humor? Entertainment?

[Thyamine]

Why is this listed as being humorous? /. generally bemoans the fact that normal users don't use Linux, and that people just assume Windows for everything. And yet here is a normal person, trying to use it, and finding it frustrating and causing her problems, and people mock her attempt.

This is a real problem

[daveschroeder]

Actually, this story did cause some criticism, which resulted in a followup story (even calling it "Ubunto" once - nice). So more angry (or informative) letters from Linux-advocates aren't going to set the record straight at this point.

But it does raise a larger question about the adoption of Linux. How can the perception that Microsoft Windows and its trappings are effectively mandatory be overcome? Her computer can handle all of her needs: email, web browsing via Firefox, Microsoft Office-compatible documents via OpenOffice.org, and no need to "install" any Windows-only "Verizon High Speed Internet CD" to use Verizon DSL.

But since many Linux-advocates presumably want to see things like Ubuntu go mainstream, the answer can't be "this woman is a moron and the TV station is worse for covering it". Her problems, even if they seem ridiculous, were real enough to her. So how do you counter this kind of problem? (Some might say decent journalism could have helped here, but that's part and parcel of the perception problem.)

Re:This is a real problem

[db32]

I don't blame the woman at all. Her complaints are entirely legitimate and are a direct result of marketing based education. NO ONE explains how anything fucking works these days. Its all "put the CD in and MAGIC!" So of course the populace has no fucking clue what is going on with how stuff works or even how to choose an alternative product. That is kind of the point of this style of marketing education. You don't want educated consumers, you want consumers that believe whatever you tell them.

I have had this battle on multiple occasions with my online classes trying to explain that I don't use Windows or MS Office. The difference is that I am an experienced user and I actually understand why the college is incorrect. They say it "requires Office XYZ" but what they mean is "you need to be able to create and edit Word compatible documents". Most users are going to take the statement "requires Office XYZ" literally because they don't understand the alternatives, and the people saying "requires Office XYZ" are probably even less likely to understand that there are even alternatives available.

Re:This is a real problem

[javilon]

This is not the mainstream we want :-)

We want the mainstream with IQ > 70

Re:This is a real problem

[TheRealMindChild]

Once upon a time, you had to learn how to use a computer to use it. This was an inherent prerequisite to using a computer effectively for school and/or work. Nowadays, any bonehead thinks that a computer needs to do it all for them, and if it doesn't, it is a failing of the system. Could you imagine if your car mechanic came back to you and said "I can't fix your car. My new tools have a green rubber handle. I only know how to use tools with a black spongy handle"...

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Generate a database of signatures for things like the "Verizon High Speed Internet CD" so that a Gnome/KDE desktop can "do the right thing" when these are inserted. Present a dialog saying "it's already installed, click here to use it". User doesn't care how that happens, as long as enough of the process makes sense ("I installed the CD, and now I have internet").

Re:This is a real problem

[kabocox]

But since many Linux-advocates presumably want to see things like Ubuntu go mainstream, the answer can't be "this woman is a moron and the TV station is worse for covering it". Her problems, even if they seem ridiculous, were real enough to her. So how do you counter this kind of problem? (Some might say decent journalism could have helped here, but that's part and parcel of the perception problem.)

Um, you could flip that around and say that you are a moron for using a nonstandard OS that mystifies average users and journalists alike in how to use the damn thing. Sure most of their functionality exists somewhere in the pain in the butt OS, but why would any sane person install or try out anything buy the standard OS that everyone knows that everything works for?

You'd also be a moron for sticking with the platform after attempting to use it and finding instead of useful help on the internet for the new user insults left and right about how stupid the new or average user is. The sane users stick with the mainstream and pay the Geek Squad $300 to install antivirus and run defrag. Oh, they'll moan at the $100 per hour costs of IT help as well.

Now compare this with doing any car maintenance. Does the average slashdotter even know how to change their oil? What about filters and such or how much a starter, alternator, or transmission should cost? No we'd spend what we were told to spend to get our cars fixed. And then moan and whine about how much car repair costs.

Re:This is a real problem

[grexin]

You were doing so poorly then you utterly failed.

"Could you imagine if your car **mechanic** came back to you"

The key word here is mechanic. YOU are not fixing the car yourself, YOU do not know how, YOU do not even have the block spongy handled tool.

When I say you, I mean the hypothetical person in your story who went to the mechanic. You may actually know how to fix a modern cars systems and have all the tools to do so, I wouldn't know.

Re:This is a real problem

[elrous0]

If computers had remained a niche for a handful of knowledgeable uber-geeks instead of going mainstream in the 90's, we wouldn't have such a robust internet today or consumer pricing on computers and components.

Re:This is a real problem

[Tubal-Cain]

By definition, the average IQ is 100.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonimouse]

"So how do you counter this kind of problem?" We could start by getting rid of some of the supposed Linux supporters on the equivalent Digg post who had nothing other than ridicule for this girl. First hurdle for Linux on the desktop/laptop is the lack of visibility (nobody but geeks or friends of geeks know about it) Second hurdle is getting rid of the asses who think helping adoption can be done by taking the piss out of potential new users.

Re:This is a real problem

[tepples]

The difference is that I am an experienced user and I actually understand why the college is incorrect. They say it "requires Office XYZ" but what they mean is "you need to be able to create and edit Word compatible documents".

Unless someone is taking an intro to databases course, and the course has Microsoft Access (either with the built-in engine or ODBC-linked to Microsoft SQL Server Express) as the required software. Or does OpenOffice.org Base open Access files now?

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny, I thought this one is more appropriate.

Re:This is a real problem

[TheRealMindChild]

Well, that is more or less what I was illustrating. You go to a mechanic because you DON'T know how to fix a car. You would want the person who knows what they are doing... actually UNDERSTANDS what is going on, because you don't want to kill your family in a fiery crash because the brakes were put on completely wrong.

Why people nowadays accept people using a computer without having the slightest clue what is going on is just as ridiculous... it just happens to be one that everyone accepts and even empathizes with them. That in itself is sad.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, this story did cause some criticism, which resulted in a followup story (even calling it "Ubunto" once - nice). So more angry (or informative) letters from Linux-advocates aren't going to set the record straight at this point.

But it does raise a larger question about the adoption of Linux. How can the perception that Microsoft Windows and its trappings are effectively mandatory be overcome? Her computer can handle all of her needs: email, web browsing via Firefox, Microsoft Office-compatible documents via OpenOffice.org, and no need to "install" any Windows-only "Verizon High Speed Internet CD" to use Verizon DSL.

But since many Linux-advocates presumably want to see things like Ubuntu go mainstream, the answer can't be "this woman is a moron and the TV station is worse for covering it". Her problems, even if they seem ridiculous, were real enough to her. So how do you counter this kind of problem? (Some might say decent journalism could have helped here, but that's part and parcel of the perception problem.)

Thats right, keep giving the morons out there more ammo .. how retarded are you?

Re:This is a real problem

[Americano]

Dear smug asshole,

Considering IQs of less than 70 are generally classified as "profound" to "borderline" deficiency (mental retardation), you might want to reconsider that range.

Many people - regardless of how high their IQs are - do not cream their jeans over the possibility of having Ubuntu installed on their computer. And as your post goes to show, at least some of the people who DO mess themselves over Linux... well, they're just not that bright, though they do manage an air of self-righteous superiority.

If you insist on lumping everybody who doesn't share your profound arousal over free software into the "mentally retarded" category, can you really make the claim that you want mainstream adoption with a straight face?

Thanks for your consideration.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if she would have been better off with a Windows machine. It seems should would have had just as many difficulties no matter what the OS.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

People clever enough to not have any real problems with linux, are clever enough to sort out their issues with windows. If it does what they need, people are resistant to change. People unable to cope with windows, however, will be looking to change. They're your best shot at acceptance and eventually converting the people who have no reason to change. Look at how mac handles it. If they go Apple, the mac will coddle them and tell them they're special and unique. They will be happy, and they will tell everyone how great it is; then otherwise content windows users hear this and may just try it themselves.

If they mistep and land in the linux pool; people will mock them and tell them they're stupid. Then they'll either crawl back to windows, or try a mac (see above). Then the otherwise content windows users hear this and write linux off as an insurmountable nerd stronghold and will make a note not to bother.

You're standing on your own throat here.

Re:This is a real problem

[plasmacutter]

uuh.. the "followup story" doesn't load properly.

can we get a summary?

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

It might surprise you to learn that the reason some people own a computer is to do things for them. Working the computer is not what people want to do. Writing a document is what people want to do. Playing a game is what people want to do. I agree that people have to know how to use the tool. The more that computers enable people to do that without being in the way, the better off we will all be.

Nowadays... I hate that.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm going too sue LG because wget isn't included in Vista.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

As an interesting side note, I know quite a few college level teachers that only take .doc files. Can OpenOffice make those files?

Re:This is a real problem

[JambisJubilee]

Come on, you don't blame her? I can understand if she has computer problems, but let's not pretend that this has anything to do with dropping out of school. She dropped out because she's an idiot, period. What are you willing to bet that the school has a computer lab... oh wait! http://development.matcmadison.edu/matc/studentresources/techresources/

The Student Computer Help staff assist MATC students with questions about:
MATC student email accounts
the Microsoft Office suite,
installing the Wisconsin Integrated Software Catalog products,
Blackboard and various other curriculum-based software packages at MATC.

As I said, there is no excuse. The school has allocated resources to deal with exactly what her problem was, but she couldn't be bothered to lift a finger to educate herself.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Could you imagine if your mechanic just came back to you and said "I won't bother to look at your car. There's nothing wrong with your car - you're probably just a moron, since you can't figure that out yourself"?

Once upon a time, you had to be a trained professional to use an expensive computer for highly specialized purpose. That time is long gone - the computer is a cheap consumer device, and its power can be effectively used by the unwashed masses.

Here's a hint: That's a Good Thing.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

This problem extends to the online education sites that refuse to work unless you are running IE. They detect Firefox, tell you to you need to use IE, and refuse to go any farther.

If this happens while you are trying to buy something, you can just leave, vote with your dollars, and buy elsewhere. When you have already paid thousands for a course, that is quite the corner to be backed into.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

But since many Linux-advocates presumably want to see things like Ubuntu go mainstream, the answer can't be "this woman is a moron and the TV station is worse for covering it". Her problems, even if they seem ridiculous, were real enough to her. So how do you counter this kind of problem?

When a low-watt user starts up a PC s/he expects to see whatever s/he has learned to expect. If s/he expects Windows then that is what should pop up, at least in their minds. Anything and everything that isn't windows (and usually the expected version of Windows) is Wrong and causes the user to panic.

Think about this in terms of a car. You approach a car and you expect a door handle. Voice controlled doors may be neat but you wouldn't expect it. Once you're in you expect a steering wheel, some sort of gear shift, the gas on the right and the brake on the left and both pedals on the floor.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

The bottom line is whether or not we like it or not, that there are just places where you can't avoid windows. You can claim up and down that there are ways to use Linux to get everything going, but it will almost always be a fight. I'm a Suse guy, but I have a windows box at work for the business side (because my office runs completely off of it), and Suse for my development stuff. I could use Suse to do everything, but I would always be hacking and cutting corners and shoe-horning stuff. Until these business stop building their infrastructure around it, we have a choice to make. Use LInux and deal with minor annoyances every day, or just use Windows.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead of insulting and wondering why she doesn't get Ubuntu, the community should offer up assistance to help her learn about the Operating System.

I've been running Ubuntu for almost 2 years now, before that, Fedora and SuSE. I've even tried to get my wife to switch. However, she doesn't care about the OS, she cares that she can access courses at school and has used OpenOffice but struggles with the notion of saving in a particular file format.

The truth is that the common user just doesn't understand new. Even if they are intelligent. I know engineers that are idiots when it comes to the computer, but can easily navigate AutoCAD or SolidWorks.

Re:This is a real problem

[meringuoid]

As an interesting side note, I know quite a few college level teachers that only take .doc files. Can OpenOffice make those files?

Yes, but they're considerably larger than the ones Word produces. I've lately been told that this is because OpenOffice.org embeds an image of the first page for use as a preview thumbnail, which substantially inflates the size of shorter documents. Kind of embarrassing when I send off a 200K document, someone on Word makes a trivial change and mails it back at more like 10K :-)

Re:This is a real problem

[FlopEJoe]

I can't fix your car. My new tools have a green rubber handle. I only know how to use tools with a black spongy handle

That's analogous to a baboon kissing an umbrella.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Sir, you fail to understand the inherent complexities of the newer green handle. I propose you retract your comment.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty much... it's like when I was in school and we learned how computers worked internally, about binary, and how the simple microprocessor operation operated. After that, learning from the bottom up was easy.

Re:This is a real problem

[jbolden]

Basic trouble shooting skills are expected of adults. No one is asking anything difficult of her. The expectation is things like check the internet, understand what you are buying.

Motorcycle manufactures do not agonize that their controls are slightly different than the ones in a car. This woman is sub mainstream in her problem solving, assuming you believe the article.

Now I guess a good solution would be a "verizon install package" on the Ubuntu server and letting verizon know to recommend it.

Re:This is a real problem

[slackmaster2000]

I would love to agree with you, but in this case the woman is really at fault.

It's not her fault for not understanding Ubuntu or not knowing that "Write" = "Word" or not knowing that she doesn't need a CD to connect to the Internet (which she actually might, depending on the service provider, and perhaps she had a USB modem instead of a router?).

However, there is no way that this scenario should have caused her to drop out of school for TWO semesters. At worst, this is a week or two worth of problems.

Day One: computer doesn't "work right", call Dell. Dell talks her out of switching to Windows.

Day Two: computer still doesn't "work right". At this point, call Dell and arrange an RMA.

Days Later: new computer arrives. Go to fake school.

Even if there was a time crunch and she needed the computer to work right away it's still primarily her fault. What if the machine did have Windows but arrived with a defect? What if it had Windows but she didn't realize that she also needed Office? You need to allow a small amount of time to make sure that your new computer is going to work before you insist that it must work or you're going to drop out of school for an entire year.

Re:This is a real problem

[jbolden]

I'd say if you are taking a course based on a particular package use the package. But if you are taking a database course you can handle a dual boot install.

In terms of the factual question. OpenOffice treats access files as external data repositories, that is the tables can be select queried freely

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

I once took an online networks course (University of Flaming Bird). Their "newsgroup" threaded format for the thing (which really did not at all work as envisioned) refused to even load under anything except Outlook. Even when I did have Outlook it wouldn't work right half the time, their server had some serious issues. All their IT would say to me was "use Outlook" (I AM you idiots).

I ended up failing the course...I did the work, submitted it (which unfortunately had to be done by posting in the threads which I could only access half the time) and tried my damndest to get to the discussion threads, but ultimately the problem was their programming and accessibility choices. I attempted to plead my case but no dice.

Re:This is a real problem

[jbolden]

If you go to the Amazon website or yahoo answers for people who bought the Linux Asus systems in general they were shocked how friendly and helpful the Linux community was. The Linux community has always had excellent customer service relative to the other OSes. Lets critique fairly.

Re:This is a real problem

[ThePhilips]

The point of RTFA is not that Ubuntu is hard to use.

But that she skipped 5 months of school because she couldn't get Windows on it. Show at 11.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

The mechanic probably doesn't know the laws of physics. They know just enough to do their job, just like most people.

If you're trained to push this button on the computer when you want to perform this action, and that's enough to do your job, why do you think that your average person would learn any more than that?

How low-level should one's understanding be before they're fit to use a computer, in your mind?

Re:This is a real problem

[ThePhilips]

Nothing directly related to RTFA. The reporter goes into excuses that he never heard of the Linux thing but since he is now enlightened by results of Google search, he really eager to learn about the Windows alternative.

Re:This is a real problem

[db32]

I guess I should have clarified. As other posters have pointed out, the "extremeness" of the problems makes me suspect that this could very well be a huge setup to make Dell/Ubuntu look bad. Or she is just really damned stupid and completely incapable of solving her own problems. I just meant the problems with the computer/software in general.

Re:This is a real problem

[Kymermosst]

and no need to "install" any Windows-only "Verizon High Speed Internet CD" to use Verizon DSL.

You sure about that? That is the only way my ISP provides to configure the DSL modem. They don't ever tell you a user name and password or give instructions to configure the modem manually.

Re:This is a real problem

[ADRA]

I took several Comp Sci courses in High School 10 years+ ago that explained enough about computer use. Since computers have only increased in use since then, I'd imagine the amount of use they get in classwork can only increase.

If you don't have computer training out of high school beyond 'insert magic disc' its because you chose avoid the box like the plague.

More importantly, it isn't required that all computers users become tech savy. That's what IT people exist for. They make technology bearable for the masses.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Once upon a time, you had to learn how to use a computer to use it. This was an inherent prerequisite to using a computer effectively for school and/or work. Nowadays, any bonehead thinks that a computer needs to do it all for them, and if it doesn't, it is a failing of the system. Could you imagine if your car mechanic came back to you and said "I can't fix your car. My new tools have a green rubber handle. I only know how to use tools with a black spongy handle"...

This does happen. Ever had a mechanic (not the dealer) try to work on a hybrid? Or a diesel, for that matter? "I don't have the right tools" is an excuse that the mechanic will use. It even used to be an excuse in the old days with Apple IIs, which used to require a special, super-long star head screwdriver to take apart.

Anyway, you've shown your shortsighted assumptions right in your analogy; you equate a user to a mechanic? A proper comparison user is the driver, whose interface is key, brake pedal, gas pedal, wheel, and shifter. The car even does the shifting for them these days, something that used to be a high barrier to entry to drive a car.

Re:This is a real problem

[Blakey Rat]

Without knowing what they are using Word for, why do you assume OpenOffice can take on all its tasks? For example, the school might have exercises or tests in Word that require the use of Word's form functionality, which OpenOffice-- well, kind of pretends works correctly, although it doesn't. Similarly, it might make use of password-protected Word files which OpenOffice can't use. Or hell, maybe they just want her to use OneNote, which won't work in Linux.

Geeks think that OpenOffice is as good as Office because Geeks, by and large, don't use office-type applications. It's a night and day difference in the real world.

Re:This is a real problem

[javilon]

Well, you guessed right, my tongue in cheek comment suggests that this girl is border line. Not because she couldn't adapt to Ubuntu, but because instead of trying to find out what the situation was asking someone with more knowledge than her, she went straight to TV to publicize her limitations.

Novice windows users ask other people when they can't manage some tasks. So I contend that this girl wouldn't do much better with a Windows box.

In any case, this is not the mainstream user that desktop Linux is looking for right now. Desktop Linux is looking for users with at least some ability to adapt to changes. At the end of the day, whatever good Ubuntu is, it will not be an exact copy of Windows. That is what many people like you is asking for and that is just not possible. Do you want all of the crashes and viruses and registry bloat? I don't think so. If you want a free exact copy of Windows, just pirate it.

Re:This is a real problem

[SlickSlacker]

Point for increased mandatory basic CS education in our schools. If people had basic understandings of how computer programs worked, what files really are (.ppt does not mean that only Microsoft Power Point will open it, etc..), and how to use search engines these types of stories would be history.

Re:This is a real problem

[Culture20]

Once upon a time, you had to learn how to read a Book to use it. This was an inherent prerequisite to using a Book effectively for school and/or work. Nowadays, any bonehead thinks that a Book needs to do it all for them, and if it doesn't, it is a failing of the Book.

"That book doesn't talk!"
http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58795

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

My notebook came with Windows Home Edition, and it had Microsoft Windows TRIAL VERSION that DOES NOT SAVE files. Thus, most likely, she would not have a compatible copy of Word on her machine either. She would have to pay extra.

I use both and find that Open Office is quicker and easier than Word 2007. Also, many students have commented to me that Word 2007 didn't format the margins on their school essays properly, causing them to loose points.

Re:This is a real problem

[kondor6c]

He also misspelled "a lot", its pretty common though. Along with people calling an ATM, just ATM Machine. PIN numbers are right up there too.

Re:This is a real problem

[Blakey Rat]

No it's not. I happen to believe that *all* people, regardless of their capabilities, should be able to use every feature of *all* modern inventions with little to no training. That includes computers, telephones, bread makers, their VCRs, whatever. You call that ridiculous, I call it noble.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously, this is because of the ease of use that has been brought about by Win/Mac machines. It's actually a good thing. Nothing wrong with that.

Your analogy makes no sense in the perspective you're talking about. It's like saying any bonehead thinks that a phone needs to be able to make a call for them. Imagine if your phone company came back to you and said "I can't dial your call. My network only supports DTMF and your phone has Touch Tone.". The phone just needs to work and so should the computer for basic everyday tasks (Browsing, Doc Editing, Emailing).

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

what does George W Bush (and his umbrella) have to do with Ubuntu?

Re:This is a real problem

[jbeale53]

You're comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing operating a computer with repairing a car. If you wanted to say that you would never operate a car without taking driver's education, then your point may have been sort of valid. The thing is, when someone buys a TV, they want to turn it on and it works. When they buy an appliance for the kitchen, they don't want to have to spend another bundle of money to learn how to use them.

Re:This is a real problem

[iPodUser]

It's more like this - she used to have an old honda civic. She has just got a new S2000. To start the old civic, you put the key in and turn it. To start the S2000, you put the key in, and press the "start engine" button. Now, since she couldn't figure that out, she called the honda dealer to trade her S2000 back for a civic, but was talked out of it. She then proceeded to miss a day at work and called the news to complain.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

I have had this battle on multiple occasions with my online classes trying to explain that I don't use Windows or MS Office. The difference is that I am an experienced user and I actually understand why the college is incorrect.

You're missing the conformist picture here. To the eyes of the average person you are either seen as incompetent or a troublemaker. Neither of which will benefit you. Your advocacy is wasted on members of an educational regime.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

she was taking only online courses, she could have been in a position where she couldn't go to campus?

Re:This is a real problem

[Geak]

The linux community could be a little more sensitive to this by making the operating system and the programs installed with it considerably easier to use. I have seen incredible improvements over the past several years but it really does need to be more "Mac Like" if you want to target the moron market. The problem with this thinking is that it doesn't really resolve the problem, it just complicates issues.

The real issue is computer illiteracy. The more you dumb down the machine, the dumber the users get. The simpler the interface becomes to use, the less the user learns about the internal workings of a program. Then when a problem occurs, they don't have the capability to understand the problem and fix it.

I've done technical support for 10 years. When I fix a problem for a customer, I try to explain in laymans terms how the problem occurred and how to fix it themselves and how to prevent it in the future. I explain how they can learn more about a problem when they run into trouble. Some people get it and learn an incredible amount. They become quite proficient.

The key is educating users. We've seen this problem before when the printing press was invented. Only the well educated knew how to read. Computers are no different. They are a part of our everyday life. Like it or not we are dependent on them. We start our children reading at a very young age now. We should be doing the same with computers.

I was one of the fortunate few that did. When I was 5 my parents got a Commodore 64. My dad taught me how to write a program to print my name on the screen repeatedly. My fascination continued from there. In high school I had hard wired a CPU, some memory, a hexidecimal keypad and a digital display and programmed a clock. In university I designed a CPU. I have a pretty good understanding about how a computer works from the inside to the outside and am confident that I can fix any problem I run into with a computer - be it a hardware or software problem.

The basic concepts can be taught to children in their normal schooling. In kindergarden when children are learning numbers and how to add they should be taught other number systems as well such as binary or hexidecimal. In grade 1 when they are taught how to do simple arithmetic they should also be taught about AND and OR gates, etc. Children will make the connections. It will take a long time before enough people are educated enough that the illiteracy is no longer an issue. The educators need to be educated before they can teach. This would be an excellent project for a university. Computer science students, sociology students, psychology students, and students working on their teaching degree could work together to come up with system for teaching computer literacy through the entire school system (kindergarden - grade 12), and convince a local school board to test the waters. At each step of the way they will take a computer literacy test to determine the effectiveness of the program. Sure it will take a little over 12 years to run this type of a study, and even longer to implement it across the board if it's successful, but consider how long it's taken us to wipe out illiteracy since the printing press was invented.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

The way these new cars are, I wouldn't be surprised. See, THIS model only works with a rubber handle, and THIS one only works with a spongy handle. Each handle costs about $10,000, and without one you cant' work on the car...

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that your analogy requires every car driver to be a mechanic. If I replace my car with a helicopter, I can still fulfill my transportation needs. However, I don't know how to fly a helicopter, and if you sold me one claiming that it was just like a car and could do all the same things, I think I'd be justifiably confused about where the steering wheel was.

Re:This is a real problem

[Americano]

So I contend that this girl wouldn't do much better with a Windows box.

Actually, given that the Verizon DSL CD would have worked on a Windows system, and Microsoft Office would have worked just fine on a Windows system, I contend that she would have done a damn sight better with a Windows box - since both of her problems would not have happened with a Windows laptop.

In any case, this is not the mainstream user that desktop Linux is looking for right now.

Then I submit that "desktop Linux" is not looking for mainstream users. Full stop. And you know, that's fine - Linux can survive quite handily as a small segment of the desktop market & running servers. But if that is what the Linux community would prefer, drop the charade of wanting mainstream acceptance on the desktop. If you call your mainstream adopters retards for not being "smart enough" to use your system and eagerly accept every frustration, that's a recipe for failure.

At the end of the day, whatever good Ubuntu is, it will not be an exact copy of Windows. That is what many people like you is asking for and that is just not possible.

I am not asking for it to work like Windows. I'm saying that if you want acceptance on the desktop, that desktop needs to work for the things mainstream users want to do.

What you're implying is that everybody who uses Linux must also become a vocal advocate of software freedom and open standards and start fighting the good fight when they're told something requires Office or some other proprietary software. And most mainstream users - adaptable to change or not - simply don't value those concepts as much as a software engineer might. If you can't understand that, and you can't offer a compelling incentive (rather than frustration & more work) to switch, why would you ever expect people to do so?

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

That followup story is a lie. The followup claims that the article is merely a consumer choice piece. But that is such a lie because the article was, as usual, filled with yellow journalist opinion and failed to explain that the problem was the students ignorance and refusal to learn. The very title of the article sets it up to be an attack.

Re:This is a real problem

[Sigma 7]

Without knowing what they are using Word for, why do you assume OpenOffice can take on all its tasks? For example, the school might have exercises or tests in Word that require the use of Word's form functionality

This would most likely be in a course dedicated to Microsoft Word, as opposed to a "general use" word processor. If you are in a course like that, you probably have enough access to the college/university computers that you can do any assignments in the computer labs. For anything else, such as typing a simple resume, you can do the work in OpenOffice, save as MS Word, and verify it on the college computers.

Geeks think that OpenOffice is as good as Office

It isn't - it only has 65535 rows. I also have specific qualms about the formatting system within OpenOffice, where I can only do conditional formatting to one of the existing format types (as opposed to having a freely customizable conditional format.) Lastly, I also tried entering what amounts to a "big number" - instant precision loss, which forced me to use Java instead.

The good thing about OpenOffice is that I don't need to pirate it.

Re:This is a real problem

[SeePage87]

+5 informative for a commonly know fact, eh? Let me give it a try:

Cats are mammals. Mod points, please!

Re:This is a real problem

[b4dc0d3r]

Isn't she paying this college to educate her? Not disagreeing with you, just refining.

She failed numerous attempts to seek help, but if she's having problems with online classes she should ask whomever is providing those classes. I'm sure someone there could have helped her more than a reporter could.

Re:This is a real problem

[Fjan11]

Almost. They re-index it every now and then, and it tends to drift upwards, so it should be a bit above 100 now. Yes, it goes up, that surprised me as well. The average IQ a century ago would have been around 80.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

"Her computer can handle all of her needs: email, web browsing via Firefox, Microsoft Office-compatible documents via OpenOffice.org,"

Not necessarily - a huge number of online course offerings utilize the Blackboard system which is IE only. Will it function in Firefox, yes, but it requires some tweaks and know-how to make sure that you can take your tests and enter text on the class site.

Re:This is a real problem

[JK_the_Slacker]

I'm sorry, that wasn't close enough to a real car analogy to satisfy me. Could you explain this again, in terms of engines and brakes?

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

well, it seems that its easier to drop out then to...

1. go to a internet caffe
2. go to a library (there are a pc there).
3. borrow a pc
4. just return the ubuntu, and ask for a windows
5. just ask someone to help with ubuntu
6. ask how the mac people work without window.

blaming ubuntu is ridiculous

Re:This is a real problem

[javilon]

I am not asking for it to work like Windows. I'm saying that if you want acceptance on the desktop, that desktop needs to work for the things mainstream users want to do.

Well, it does. Ubuntu has a very capable office suite and connects flawlessly to the internet. So there you go.

Your argument is like saying that electric cars shouldn't try to go mainstream because people would need to adapt to the battery recharge procedure and because the gauge says "Battery" instead of "fuel". Or because the gas pump cannot be used on them.

Re:This is a real problem

[wrencherd]

(Some might say decent journalism could have helped here, but that's part and parcel of the perception problem.)

Yes; the best part of the whole dust-up is how TFA says that "Ubuntu contains Linux". If Linux is still considered by a "tech reporter" to be something akin to what high fructose corn syrup is in the soft drink world then there are a lot of hurdles still to get over besides one technophobic cheese-head.

Re:This is a real problem

[Americano]

Well, it does. Ubuntu has a very capable office suite and connects flawlessly to the internet. So there you go.

Then you [ the Linux community ] have done a piss-poor job of marketing your superior alternative and educating the schools who are mandating Microsoft Office and companies not supporting Linux with their installation / config cds. Blaming the individual user is ridiculous.

To clarify your electric car analogy, it would be like someone ordering a gas-powered car, receiving that electric car, and then being told by your local government, "Sorry, you can't drive THAT CAR on our roads, we only support gas-powered vehicles." If you RTFA, you'll see that the woman KEPT the Ubuntu laptop from Dell because she was told it would work for everything she needed. Then her school & her ISP told her she *needed* MSFT Office & a Windows install CD to get her networking functional. Oops. She tried to make the electric car work, and then was told she couldn't use it.

At what point do you stop blaming the user and start realizing that this is the single biggest problem the Linux community needs to overcome if it wants mainstream adoption for Linux? Attack the idiot centralized rules that equate "writing a document in an interchangeable format," with "needs MSFT Word." Demonstrate to that professor that there are "very capable" systems which "connect flawlessly." Get him to change his policy which, as currently worded, requires MSFT products - he's a person with significant influence over what computer systems his students will use. Get him on your side, and you'll have a lot more success than you will by calling the users idiots and retards for not disregarding the stated requirements of the course.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

I have had this battle on multiple occasions with my online classes trying to explain that I don't use Windows or MS Office. The difference is that I am an experienced user and I actually understand why the college is incorrect. They say it "requires Office XYZ" but what they mean is "you need to be able to create and edit Word compatible documents". Most users are going to take the statement "requires Office XYZ" literally because they don't understand the alternatives, and the people saying "requires Office XYZ" are probably even less likely to understand that there are even alternatives available.

I too have dealt with this over and over again. First with colleges and now with my employer. Unfortunately in some cases they are correct. Some colleges use specialized software for their on-line classes. This software is usually active x and thus requires a Windows operating system. Same goes for my employer. We have a VPN but the software they purchased is Windows software. Even though our web presence is deployed on Unix servers. So, any Unix or Linux based computer is unable to use the VPN and NO ONE sees a problem with this. AMAZING!!!!!!!!@

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

more appropriately to your analogy, could you imagine if you HAD to be a car mechanic to USE your computer?

computers should work out of the box and in an intuitive way. no one should HAVE to understand the underlying file systems or operation systems or even be away of specific open source efforts to use a computer. The computer should handle this for the user.

I'm not saying that Windows does this either; but it should be the goal.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

My car mechanic is supposed to know how my car works, but I don't. So I actually *would* be surprised if that happened.

Oh, and actually I also don't want to know all about what kind of tires are available and of what kind of rubber they were made and what research has been conducted to come up with the motif of grooves in it. I would however would like to know about a couple of choices I have and what the pros and cons would be in terms of handling, safety, wear and price.

However... to some extent I do agree with you. Why? Because you do have to learn how to drive a car and you even need to get a license to do it. And the same could apply to computers: users should in fact be educated in how to use the computer, and they should be explained that eg. 'Internet Explorer' is not the same thing as 'the internet'.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Solution: stop developing Linux. Stop telling average people that they can do everything with it that they can do with Windows ("did we forget to mention the steep learning curve... there's no way you can hit the ground running, sorry"). No more confusion. No more millions of man-hours wasted. Image if you counted all the hours that have been spent developing Linux and the various distros, and spent an equal amount of time improving Windows and writing better apps for it. How fucking advanced would we be now? Thanks for helping NO ONE, Linux. I can't wait until it finally dies.

I have been a programmer for about half my life (I'm 32), professionally for 10 years. I have had plenty of experiences with Linux. For a time, I was even running a Mandrake box as the gateway machine on my home LAN. Until I had to replace it with WINDOWS so that my external IEEE 1394 HD would work.

Guess what? All those pet projects you Linux developers put in? We don't care about them. Just get the basic shit working, like HARDWARE. This is one huge difference between open source and pro software: focus. Another: accountability.

Give me a ring when I can sue Linux devs for not including Firewire support in a supposedly usable OS. Give me a ring when the entire Linux community together starts tackling the major issues one by one instead of letting them linger.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually they could require Powerpoint XYZ because the openoffice alternative is not very ummm.. full featured

Re:This is a real problem

[tubapro12]

They say it "requires Office XYZ" but what they mean is "you need to be able to create and edit Word compatible documents". Most users are going to take the statement "requires Office XYZ" literally because they don't understand the alternatives, and the people saying "requires Office XYZ" are probably even less likely to understand that there are even alternatives available.

This is something that has impressed me about my current college; all of my professors who require their students to submit works digitally have taken the time to point out that their are alternatives to Microsoft and how to get them, namely OpenOffice. Also, all the campus computers have Firefox 3 installed as the default browser, although they have Office 2007 for productivity.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft probably owns the TV station. This is just a ploy to create FUD.

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

As lowly retail worker at Staples, I can attest to customers not actually caring how things work. I do my best to explain things, but they don't understand what CDs are in the first place, let alone how to insert one and run a program from it. They're the same ones who blame us for selling them a "broken" laptop (admittedly over-priced) which started slowing down after they got on the internet and started downloading their favorite screensavers, "smilies," and those antivirus programs that are really malware. When a customer wants to learn what's going on, I help them. Unfortunately, I'd estimate >99% of customers don't actually care. They don't want to know how things work. They just want them to work--and god forbid they have to learn something.

Re:This is a real problem

[ion.simon.c]

In most of the Southeastern US, a High School "Comp Sci" course is really "Intro to the MS Office suite" combined with "Touch Typing 090".

Re:This is a real problem

[ion.simon.c]

*hands you a cookie*

Ah, crap. I screwed that up again!

Re:This is a real problem

[ion.simon.c]

Then her school & her ISP told her she *needed* MSFT Office & a Windows install CD to get her networking functional.

FTFA: (Probably Copyright 2009 Dan Cassuto: dcassuto@wkowtv.com. Used without permission)

Verizon says it will dispatch a technician to try to assist her accessing the internet without using the Windows-only installation disk. Verizon says its high-speed internet does indeed support Ubuntu, but some advanced features and installation disks clearly don't work with Linux.

MATC also says it promises to accept any of Schubert's papers or class documents using whatever software she has installed.

All that was required of this lady was for her to explain her situation to her ISP and her Uni Help Desk (or professor). They seem to be more than happy to help her. Moreover, it would seem that her Ubuntu-powered laptop will do everything that her courses require.

At what point do you stop blaming the user...

There's noone to blame here but the user. She curled up in a corner and gave up at the first sign of trouble. What might she have done when Office didn't come preinstalled on her bread-n-butter Windows-powered laptop? Assuming that she had the wherewithal to run to a store, would she have freaked the fuck out if the prof. "required" Office 2003, but she could only buy Office 2008?

Re:This is a real problem

[ion.simon.c]

*sigh*

The OP was speaking of the halcyon days when Mainframes were used by well trained Computer Operators and maintained by highly trained System Administrators.
That's kinda the point here... general-purpose computers are *still* not appliances. Most folks would like to have a machine that does email, basic web browsing, and simple typesetting. They never get that... they get a complex, full-featured device that can do just about any goddamned thing.

This is, in my eyes, a failing of the consumer electronics industry. This should have been solved years ago.

Re:This is a real problem

[ion.simon.c]

I agree.

Re:This is a real problem

[ion.simon.c]

Wait, what?
1) How does a stock install CD know about your username and password?
2) Would you still get stonewalled if you threatened to take your business elsewhere?

Re:This is a real problem

[ion.simon.c]

It isn't - it only has 65535 rows.

To be "fair", this was a limitation in Excel until recently.

Full disclosure: I think that OO.org sucks muchly. (Have you ever tried to compile the fucker? It's bigger than all of KDE!)

Re:This is a real problem

[ion.simon.c]

Give me a ring when I can sue Linux devs for not including Firewire support in a supposedly usable OS.

Unless you have an SLA with MSFT (or some other vendor), you can't sue anyone when FireWire support is missing. (Hint: You don't enter into such an agreement when you purchase Windows off the shelf or from an OEM. You have to pay *extra* and sign papers for that.)
You can enter in to such agreements with Linux vendors... They'll cost you money, though.

Re:This is a real problem

[Americano]

Two points:

1. The article was initially done by a consumer advocate. When the news station called Verizon & MATC, they were helpful. Whether or not they would have been as sympathetic and helpful to her as an individual (without the threat of bad press) is still an open question.
2. Your response is typical of the "you should have just figured it the fuck out yourself, you idiot," response that so many Linux advocates love to give. "If it's trivial for me to get these things working, it MUST be trivial for everybody else." There's this trait called empathy. If you want mainstream adoption, you might need to learn a little about it.

And, from the fucking followup article:

That's also when the comments - many of them angry, rude, and hateful - started pouring in. Some Ubuntu users accused 27 News of "unscrupulous reporting," hitting a "new low for local news," and writing an "atrocious article."
Many Ubuntu users also wrote very personal attacks about the young lady who was having trouble using the operating system. They called her "lazy," "a dumb girl," and "not worthy of a college degree."
The young woman also contacted 27 News to report she's being harassed on her Facebook account by Ubuntu users.

Yeah. Way to go Linux community. Get yourselves a reputation in the media for hateful personal attacks and harrassment of people who don't abide by the FLOSS principles you revere so highly. Instead of using it as an opportunity to ask, "What could we do better?" the Ubuntu zealots circle the wagons and attack anybody who doesn't drink the kool aid. Great call. Be sure to let us all know how that works out for your dreams of widespread adoption.

Re:This is a real problem

[ion.simon.c]

Yeah. Way to go Linux community.

Agreed. Trolls and other such folks really suck. A cursory reading of this article leads to the understanding that it's a "Stupid Human Tricks" story, rather than a "Busted Operating System" story. How anyone could miss that is beyond me.

Your response is typical of the "you should have just figured it the fuck out yourself, you idiot," response

Calling a professional for help is now considered "figur[ing] it the fuck out [for] yourself"?

...your dreams of widespread adoption.

Who are you talking to here? I use Linux 'cause I like it. I don't give a flying fuck if anyone else uses it. :D

Re:This is a real problem

[MilesAttacca]

It's annoying as hell sometimes, but I'd rather have a bunch of clueless morons behind full-fledged PCs if it gets me decent pricing on my own full-fledged PC. Imagine paying $100 for that magical e-mail/Internet/Word computer and $1500 for a baseline "real" machine?

Re:This is a real problem

[MilesAttacca]

Call them up and ask for the IP address, subnet mask, default gateway, and possibly DNS servers to plug into your network settings. Don't know how to do this? It's not surprising, but it should be. Why aren't students and new users in general taught basic things like network configuration, in this era of ubiquitous Internet?

Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

NO ONE explains how anything fucking works these days.

Amen to that bro. The other day was the first time I traveled on one of those modern hi-tech trains. Between sections there are glass doors with handles (in the frame) and a small black square in the center of it. On the small square the was an image of a hand with a couple of straight lines trailing it suggesting a "swiping" motion. I figured there might be a sensor directed from somewhere at the black square, so I tried swiping my hand over the square. Nothing happened. I tried pulling the handle to slide the door open. Wouldn't budge. Back in the old day HANDLES ACTUALLY SERVED A PURPOSE . Lucky for me a little old lady showed up on the other side of the door and pushed the little square and - woosh, the door opened like magic. I felt like an idiot. This was a glass door, with no wires going to the black square indicating that it actually did anything, like say - a button. To me, that little square with the hand on it looked like a sticker. I would have known exactly what to do if it just said "Push me". But no, what if someone doesn't know how to read! It's almost as if it was designed by Apple.

My point is that this high-tech stuff might seem cool to people who design it but what they don't consider is how a person who has never seen the device before is supposed to figure out how it works. Computers are prime examples.

Re:This is a real problem

[Sally Forth]

Yes.

This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Maxo-Texas]

Because it is major egg on Verizon's face.

The larger the linux market segment gets, the less windows benefits from it's network effect.

As far as the word processor goes- she just needs a clue about Openoffice or some of the other fine WP's available.

Hopefully she isn't going into a technical degree area with this little knowledge of computers at that age.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[chemosh6969]

I was wondering how many people wouldn't stop to think before they replied, blaming her in the process. Not everyone is a computer whiz or cares to be one. Do you know everything about everything? Most people, probably including you, has bought something at a point where they have no interest in learning everything about it and has asked someone for advice. If they gave you advice that didn't help you after purchasing it, why should the people that understand what you did wrong blame you?

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Lulfas]

Let's be honest. The Linux "market segment" is mostly businesses, servers, and an extremely small amount of computer geeks. Of those, Verizon needs to worry about the geeks, who know how to run Wine if they want to run Verizon's software. There is no monetary advantage for Verizon to make their software *nix capable, therefore they won't.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Archangel Michael]

I wish I had mod points. (+1) Insightful here

Two parts to the complain, one is on Verizon (do they support Mac and not Linux???). Which isn't Linux or even Ubuntu's fault. In fact, I suspect that if Verizon gave the specs for their device to Linux community, there would be a driver and management software available within a couple of days. No development costs to Verizon at all, and I'm sure they would get all sorts of "attaboys" from the Linux community.

Second part is Word isn't needed to type papers. In fact, if I were Professor at a big U, I wouldn't accept .doc files. Print it, or submit in an open standard. Hell, I'd probably require them to be .txt just so people would have to focus on content, and not on making it "pretty".

 

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this egg on Verizon's face??? Aside from the fact that they shouldn't even have install disks??? You don't need any additional software to make windows / linux work with DSL / Cable / FIOS - just plug it into your router, and it works.... (The default Windows install configures networking with TCP / DHCP client enabled by default)...

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Maxo-Texas]

And as someone else here pointed out, you don't need to install verizon's software to use the internet.

The addon software really has no benefit that I've been able to determine and I prefer less software on my machine.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Lumpy]

Hopefully she isn't going into a technical degree area with this little knowledge of computers at that age.

nope. She is a Business Management Major.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Anonimouse]

Agree totally. "I was wondering how many people wouldn't stop to think before they replied, blaming her in the process" Just check out the asses on Digg http://digg.com/linux_unix/Ubuntu_Causes_Girl_To_Drop_Out_of_College. They absolutely slated her. And they wonder why people don't want to get on the Linux train....

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Anonymous Coward]

Verizon does not need to give any specs to the linux community. All they have to do is tell the person, "Put this address in your browser's address bar..." and after that, the setup is all the same. They give you a modem that has a built-in router.

Once Verizon figures out how easy it is to get online without their CD, maybe they won't be afraid to help other linux users do it while talking to them on the phone.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[cHiphead]

You forgot to include the market for 4 year olds, my kid has been using linux for almost 3 years, no spyware infections, plenty of educational applications, usable user security levels.

The only think you might need Verizon software for is a usb/pc card cell modem.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I've used Verizon before, with *nix machines as well as Wintels. The CD is irrelevant, it just hods your hand through putting a username and password onto the DSL modem(something that the DSL modem's dinky browser based configuration interface also supports) and installs an RNDIS driver to allow you to use the DSL modem as a USB device.

Verizon, presumably in an effort to make things "easier", doesn't talk about what needs to happen(PPPoE configuration) but instead just tells you to use the CD. Easy enough to figure out, though. After all, almost anybody who has a wireless router and Verizon DSL or FIOS is already using a Linux machine with Verizon, even if they don't know it yet.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Anonymous Coward]

PDF is a good standard. In my university I would present all of my papers in PDF form, so I know exactly what they'll look like when the professor receives them. I had used OpenOffice the whole time, and no one would have ever known had they not seen me using it.

Things just seem so much more professional in OO, too. The only issue is if the professor wants to use the whole "change tracking" deal to edit and provide comments.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Nebu]

This is pretty awesome *for* linux. Because it is major egg on Verizon's face. [...] Hopefully she isn't going into a technical degree area with this little knowledge of computers at that age.

Honestly, I don't think Verizon is too concerned about the "negative publicity" that this article may have caused, and the possibility of losing the "compute-illiterate Linux users" demographics.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Maxo-Texas]

???
While I agree with your point, it seems a bit tangential to my post.

My only comment was that I hoped she wasn't going into a technical degree. If you are going to do well with a technical degree you really need to start knowing a certain foundation. Doing otherwise would be like trying to take physics without any high school calculus or physics-- possible (I did it) but very painful compared to people who already know what the hell the professor is talking about.

19 or 20 is a bit old to be completely clueless about computers *IF* you are going into a technical program. If she is going to be a psychologist or mba then that would be different.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Maxo-Texas]

Some will read the article as "Linux prevented girl from using online classes".

The verizon marketing department knows others will read the article as "Verizon prevented girl from using online classes."

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Volante3192]

We might not be car experts but we know it takes gas to run. We might not be TV experts, but we know that the picture comes in over the wires behind it.

But most people I deal with are willingly and even gleefully ignorant of computers, and will actively go out of their way to NOT learn even basic things about how it works, like keeping an eye on disk space.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[yuna49]

Because it is major egg on Verizon's face.

Only on Slashdot would you get a +5 "Insightful" for this opinion.

Imagine for a moment that you're someone watching this TV news broadcast and your hear this story. Who's going to come out looking bad? Verizon? I think not. Instead the viewers will think that DELL is run a bunch of idiots who sell people computers that don't run Windows. Do you really think that ordinary folks are going to blame Verizon for sending her a disk to run in Windows? That somehow Verizon ought to be supporting some "operating system" (whatever that is) that has a funny name that no one's heard of?

You need to get out of the house a bit more.

I will say that I was a bit surprised at how clueless the TV station's "consumer reporter" is about all this. Reading his blog (Slashdotted at the moment) indicates he had never heard of Ubuntu, knew little about Linux, and was shocked to hear there were alternatives to Windows and Macs that are, gasp, free! For people who want to expand Linux usage, those are the types of people that need educating.

And Dell was stupid for not just sending her either a new machine with Windows, or an OEM Windows disk with their compliments and apologies. (I've been buying Dell products for years, too, so I'm not one of those Dell-haters we see here every now and then.)

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[BarryJacobsen]

Second part is Word isn't needed to type papers. In fact, if I were Professor at a big U, I wouldn't accept .doc files. Print it, or submit in an open standard. Hell, I'd probably require them to be .txt just so people would have to focus on content, and not on making it "pretty".

MATC isn't a "big U" - it's the local technical college (though it often feeds into the big U - UW Madison). I can't actually speak for MATC (I didn't go there) but I never had a professor at UW that didn't accept papers in PDF (though most wanted printed copies instead of electronic anyway).

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Anonymous Coward]

I was wondering how many people wouldn't stop to think before they replied, blaming her in the process.

Present company included, apparently.

Lets "stop and think" about this...

Q: Why did she buy this computer? To take online classes at MATC which probably have some sort of recommendation statement that you have a Windows machine with MS Office (given that's what's implied from the article).

Q: Why did she order a computer with Ubuntu if she knew the requirements before hand? Either she didn't know the requirements before hand or she see's $1,000 as so trivial that she didn't spend any effort verifying the product she purchased met the requirements the she needed for the purpose she was buying it for.

Fact: If she didn't know the requirements before hand, and ignorantly choose Ubuntu, it is not Dell's fault.

Fact: She admitted that Dell offered her an exchange.

Fact: Dell representative, correctly, told her an Ubuntu machine is capable of doing the two things she claims to need, internet and Word Documents.

Fact: SHE choose to keep the Ubuntu machine after being given truthful knowledge by a Dell representative, who did not refuse her a exchange.

Most people, probably including you, has bought something at a point where they have no interest in learning everything about it

No one expects a person to know everything, but you've got to know "something" about what you're doing. She failed at multiple points

If they gave you advice that didn't help you after purchasing it, why should the people that understand what you did wrong blame you?

Advice is "You should get a Windows machine because you're too dumb to use Linux". It is not "Ubuntu works with MS Word by using OpenOffice and it can connect to Verizon DSL and it's a lot more popular with college students." Those are facts and opinions. Not advice. And if the Dell Rep. did advise to keep it, puts Dell in no legal liability to a grounds to a lawsuit because the girl choose to take the advice and turn around can claim Dell refused to let her exchange it.

Her's my advice. The girl should be paraded around Madison with a big old "dunce" cap on her head so we can throw tomatoes at her. Maybe that will embarrass her enough to smarten up and that if she's going to drop $1k on a computer for school, that she better make sure that computer has what she wants, and not blame others because SHE FUCKED UP!

Just another "Trophy Kid". Someone who grew up getting a trophy for loosing as not to hurt their self-esteem, to grow up thinking they can't do anything wrong, even if they did something wrong... twice. I look forward to her getting Smacked down in the court to teach her a lesson no one else wanted to teach her... don't make mistakes and blame other people.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Phroggy]

And as someone else here pointed out, you don't need to install verizon's software to use the internet.

The addon software really has no benefit that I've been able to determine and I prefer less software on my machine.

But that's not what Verizon will tell you. They'll tell you that once you've got the hardware plugged in, the next step is to insert the CD and follow the on-screen instructions. Their marketing people don't know that this doesn't work for everyone, so they don't mention it anywhere. Their sales people are aware that Macs work differently, but that there is a way to make them work, they just don't know what that way is. Their first level tech support people know the minimum level of information they need to give a competent Mac user to get them online, although they probably can't help a novice Mac user. None of these people have even heard of Linux, and it wouldn't occur to them that the information they give to Mac users might be helpful (because she's definitely not using a Mac).

So, how is she supposed to know that Verizon's software is not required? Presumably they use PPPOE, so some configuration is required, but they'll never tell her they use PPPOE unless she asks, and she doesn't know that's what she needs to ask.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[CannonballHead]

In fact, if I were Professor at a big U, I wouldn't accept .doc files. Print it, or submit in an open standard. Hell, I'd probably require them to be .txt just so people would have to focus on content, and not on making it "pretty".

I hate to break it to you, but a lot of the world LIKES "pretty." If Linux users can't make something pretty, they're going to fail. Ever tried giving a presentation to your higher-ups (no, I don't mean the people above the basement ;) ) with a .txt document? They don't CARE if it's an open standard format or not, unless you work for a pretty geeky set of managers. And they don't care that you used openoffice. They don't even care you're running Linux. They want a good presentation, they want it to work, and they don't want you to waste their time.

Making something look "pretty" is... pretty important. Next time you read a book, read a paper, or go look at a website, notice the ones you tend to like are the ones with some design in them. Not stupid, mindless flashiness, but design.

That said, you can of course have prettiness with no content, just like you can have content with no grammar =P which seems to be a common trend. But using an open standard as opposed to a .doc file that works and easily looks pretty and 99% of the world can use doesn't accomplish a whole lot, except your own motives of getting rid of MS or MS Office or whatever it is you would want to get rid of it for. :)

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, I would consider your statement major egg on the face of Linux users for apparently not being smart enough to use a web interface. You guys do have HTTP and HTML I take it?

It's so sad that fanbois get modded up for attempting to turn the tables on anything Linux even if they're 101% wrong. I guess it just shows what kinds of minds are in that little sad community.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[PinkyDead]

Oh great! So some day this muppet is going to be my boss.

Although to be fair, I've had stupider bosses.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[jbolden]

Show me one post here in this thread which expects her to be a whiz at computers. So far all that is being asked is problem solving skills we expect from young children.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[jbolden]

Verizon support Linux fine. There are no specs needed there is not even a driver issue. There is no verizon problem. There is an install disk which you don't need which is windows/mac only. Just don't run it.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Archangel Michael]

You're absolutely right. However, pretty is often used to obfuscate poor information and organization.

Which was more towards my point.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[CannonballHead]

You're absolutely right. However, pretty is often used to obfuscate poor information and organization.

Yay, we're both right ;) I'd agree to that, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be pretty. I was a music major in college as well as a CS major, and we had to do a fairly extensive research paper on a Romantic period composer. The passing-grade minimum page number was 12. It actually did seem that the "prettier" (turned in with a neat little folder, etc) papers were the shorter and less-researched paperes (at least, based on the class participation/performance of the students, whom I all knew... small school :) ).

Anyways, apparently misunderstood the point of your post, apologies... I think I reacted to the tendency of some of the CS people that I knew to not care how anything looked, as long as it worked. Including grammar, spelling, typing, papers, programming, comments in programming, etc. :)

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[gknoy]

The most interesting thing from the reporter's follow-up was that he highlighted that it was free, and that change is scary, yet at the end, expressed some interested in pursuing it further. Awesome! He might become a Linux zealot, but at least he's not saying "you people are crazy!". He may or may not try it, but now that he's been introduced to the idea, it's taking hold on him. I bet the next time he goes to buy some expensive software, he may think, "Wait, wasn't there a free alternative?". Sure, he may not use that alternative, but now he's making a more-informed choice, rather than a Default choice.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[SanityInAnarchy]

Not everyone is a computer whiz or cares to be one.

And yet, a computer is an essential tool for college. If you're going into college, presumably you're intelligent enough to learn enough -- not to be a "whiz", but at least enough to get the damned thing online. And as computers are that essential for college, you really do need to know at least that much.

Do you know everything about everything? Most people, probably including you, has bought something at a point where they have no interest in learning everything about it and has asked someone for advice.

Well, let's see -- If I lived in a city, I'd need to know how to drive, in order to get around.

For that, I need to know that when I press down on this stick, it does a left turn signal. When I press up, it does a right turn signal. When I twist it forward, the lights turn on; when I twist it back, the lights turn off. When I leave the lights on and the car off, the battery drains, and I won't be able to start it. If I lock the door, with the key inside, I'll be locked out, which sucks.

It takes gas to run. It needs an oil change every few months.

Truly basic stuff, and that's only the beginning. (Seatbelts, adjusting mirrors...) Yet when it comes to computers, no one thinks they should have to know half of what they do about cars, despite software being much more inherently complex than a car.

And yes, asking for advice is good. It looks as though this person asked Dell for advice, and then the local news. The newsperson figured out what anyone should know -- ask Verizon for advice, and ask the school for advice.

Look, if I didn't know how to drive, and I drove a car into a tree, whose fault is that? Mine, for not learning how to use that machine. But if I don't know how to use a computer, and I can't get online, or I get a bunch of malware, obviously, it's the OS's fault for not being secure enough, or easy enough -- or it's the manufacturer's fault for installing the wrong OS -- or it's the ISP's fault for not handholding me, and blocking those evel viruses from getting in -- or it's anybody's fault but mine.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[plague3106]

I'm sorry, when did Techical school automatically mean "computer related?" Last I heard, they still include things like auto repair.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[tinkerghost]

Verizon's software only configures the modem and sets up the initial account w/ Verizon itself. A 5 minute call to Verizon will set up the account & another 2 minutes will configure the DSL modem. The directions are on the big Red & White "quick setup" poster that comes with the "self install kit".

All that being said. Verizon now uses overseas call centers for Tech support, and they don't know how to do the manual setup - including not having the default password for the routers after they tell you to reset it.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Cramer]

In fact, I suspect that if Verizon gave the specs for their device to [the] Linux community, there would be a driver and management software available within a couple of days.

It's a Westel 6100 DSL modem (or a 2wire these days?) There's no need for the Linux community to write their own modem firmware -- the westel provided vxworks based stuff works perfectly. It has an embeded web server, so there's nothing to build for "management software" -- any javascript capable web browser will do.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[tux_attack]

nope. She is a Business Management Major.

So she won't need any knowledge at all.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[massysett]

he CD is irrelevant, it just hods your hand through putting a username and password onto the DSL modem(something that the DSL modem's dinky browser based configuration interface also supports) and installs an RNDIS driver to allow you to use the DSL modem as a USB device.

OK, I do agree that the CD is configuring the router with the PPPOE login information.

But what is communicating with Verizon to establish the PPPOE account in the first place? Putting the login information into the router isn't going to magically establish the account with Verizon.

Maybe Verizon has already sent the login and password to the subscriber? I imagine she could call and get the info. But none of this would be apparent to a non-technical computer user. It probably wouldn't even be apparent to a proficient user who knows nothing about PPPOE.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Anonymous Coward]

I use Verizon DSL with Ubuntu. The only thing you need to do is make sure DHCP is enabled and set the IP address to the address of router. They don't make it easy to find what the IP address of the router is, however. This is probably beyond the capabilities of someone who doesn't even know what an IP address is. Verizon sends out a CD that will set things up for you, but it also puts on a lot of useless, unwanted software on you computer.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is pretty awesome *for* linux... The larger the linux market segment gets..

Don't look now Batman, but the Linux market segment just got smaller, by at least one user.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[chemosh6969]

While many things are possible to do on linux, many of them are not simple tasks which make it even harder for non-tech types to accomplish. For her, Windows works. She thought that by listening to Dell, it would be something she could do. She can't do it because of her obvious lack of computer skills. Her computer skills do not pay the bills. We had one lady where I work and we put OpenOffice on her machine. There was some formatting problem with her excel sheet that could have been solved by simply saving the original file with a period in a certain cell.(It was a sheet with a bunch of formulas and in OpenOffice that cell, without the period, would use the wrong data type). After telling her the problem and giving her the solution, she still couldn't understand to save the original with a period in that cell. These are the types of people that aren't going to even know what to search for to find the solution to getting her internet problem fixed or even her issue with getting Office to run.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, it was a Technical College she dropped out of. :/

(wait, that may be a good thing)

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people know that the wires behind a computer help it run and if it is unplugged it won't work (yes, there are extremes that do not realise this - but they are really on the extreme end). Most people have no idea what an operating system is - to them a computer IS Windows, and if you talk about Ubuntu they will think it is a program that runs on Windows. It is not stupid of them - they just have no need in their lives to know these things. Just like many nerds would have no clue what the difference between a diesel and gas car engine is besides you can't use one in an engine built for the other. It doesn't mean 'LOLZOMGZthey are so teh stupid!!!1!' even though for some it is very basic, it just means they have no need for it in their day to day lives. And they can operate their own car quite effectively without having the need to know.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Anonymous Coward]

IANAL (disclaimer)
However...
Legally the rep was acting as an agent for Dell. That means that any advice she got from the rep was as good as Dell as a company giving her advice. Someone considered an expert in a subject field acting on behalf of a company (the rep in this case) most definitely IS responsible for any advice they give. In law, finance etc if a rep gives misleading advice (note not instruction, just advice) they can have their ass handed to them in court. The rep giving advice most definitely does put Dell in legal liability grounds. A rep can't say whatever they want and when taken to task say 'oh, but that was just ADVICE, so it's OK'. If the rep had told her something like 'instead of returning it, you can kick it a few times and it might fix the problem' and she proceeded to kick it and it broke, Dell most definitely would be liable for replacing the computer. It doesn't matter that she was not compelled to follow the advice, a person who could be deemed an expert on the subject, and a representative of the vendor, gave advice on something that she followed and her computer broke - Dell is liable.

People here seem to think she should be confident in her computing abilities to think that she knows better than a rep of the vendor and ignore advice he gives her. This is just absurd.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[Maxo-Texas]

and again... not sure how that changes "I hope she isn't going into a technical degree".

If she is going into auto repair, I hope she knows something about cars by now (the car having a standard shift prevented me from getting to class so I dropped all my classes) too.

Re:This is pretty awesome *for* linux.

[plague3106]

Hmm... your example shows how stupid your sentiment is. How does knowing how to drive stick mean anything when you're doing minor repairs on cars? I can't drive stick; that means I can't change my oil? Huh?

Oh, and I also thought that schools existed to TEACH.

Idle?

[ari_j]

You know that new Idle section y'all put so much work into creating? Please at least use it.

So I guess no one told her about

[Erie Ed]

So let's see here...there's open office, I believe you can still use your dsl connection in ubuntu, and even if she couldn't I'm sure there's a cable ISP out there. Humm seems that the fault is on her.

Re:So I guess no one told her about

[loonycyborg]

Some DSL modems can function as NAT routers with dhcp server. This makes DSL as easy to use as cable.

The question is, why those modems aren't in router mode by default?

Re:So I guess no one told her about

[SubtleGuest]

Wow, you want her to find and change to a Cable ISP over her OS??? I think you are missing the pink elephant in the room.

In Other News...

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a Wisconsin woman, who has no business going back to school over the Internet.

Re:In Other News...

[Anonymous Coward]

No...There is a Wisconsin WOMAN. This WOMAN has Linux on a laptop. This WOMAN needs help. Come on guys, how big an opening do you need?!?

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

A girl couldn't finish her paper because her pc ate it and went beep beep beep beeep.

it was a really good paper.

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

I know this is a mac ad however you just reminded me of the other day when I wrote a really awesome email in MS exchange web portal and then clicked send for it to just go to the login screen.

gah! If anyone from MS is reading then please do something about this.

Re:In Other News...

[cashman73]

I was just getting ready to post the same thing myself. Geez -- you slashdotters really are dense! No wonder there's so many jokes about slashdotters not being able to find girlfriends,... ;-)

Re:In Other News...

[MiniMike]

You had most of them at 'woman'.

You had the rest at 'Linux'.

Come on guys, how big an opening do you need?!?

I misunderstood the context of this at first, and was about to post 'not very', but then I realized that it still works for them.

Re:In Other News...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've needed a bigger opening since I replied to those emails about increasing my p3n1s size and girth.

Re:In Other News...

[troll8901]

1,500,000 users on Slashdot.
2 users are married (users #1 and #570).
1,499,998 users to compete over this woman.

When am I ever gonna get married??

Re:In Other News...

[corrie]

How big an opening does a WOMAN normally have?

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

Worst Buy employee and jealous classmates sabotage guy's Windows HP computer. Guy blames HP for it. Guy takes the lumps and eventually lands a six-figure employment opportunity. Worst Buy employee still working at Worst Buy. Jealous classmates still working for daddy's printer repair service. FOR THE WIN!

Re:In Other News...

[Just Some Guy]

There is a Wisconsin WOMAN. This WOMAN has Linux on a laptop. This WOMAN needs help.

Stupid can make Keira Knightley look like Rosie O'Donnell. Standards only bend so far before breaking.

CALL VERIZON INSTEAD OF THE NEWS!!!

[MightyYar]

As a result, with no internet and no Microsoft Word, Schubert dropped out of MATC's fall and spring semesters.

Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too.

Re:CALL VERIZON INSTEAD OF THE NEWS!!!

[couchslug]

[quote] Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too. [/quote]

Yeah, send the morons out to operate heavy equipment and then wonder why your underground fiber got cut...

Re:CALL VERIZON INSTEAD OF THE NEWS!!!

[MightyYar]

I just like the quote from Caddyshack. :)

Danny Noonan: I planned to go to law school after I graduated, but it looks like my folks won't have enough money to put me through college.

Judge Smails: Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too.

Re:CALL VERIZON INSTEAD OF THE NEWS!!!

[timmyd]

Have you ever tried calling verizon tech support? I can't blame her for that. They just pass you around to different divisions of people that can't help you. First you talk to tech support. "Oh, your TV isn't displaying that channel? That's a billing issue, let me get you their number". After on hold for 20 minutes, "Oh that channel doesn't work, that's a tech support issue not a billing issue." After 20 minutes again, "Oh I can't access your account because it's classified as a business account (even though you live in an apartment). We only do residential accounts and the business lines are closed today"

I've had variations on the above conversation with verizon support on multiple occasions. Usually you just get disconnected or hung up on after being on hold or someone has to transfer you to another center where the process starts over again.

Re:CALL VERIZON INSTEAD OF THE NEWS!!!

[MightyYar]

But I've found Verizon Online tech support to be very helpful - even staying online with me while updating modem firmware, doing line tests, etc. They even take down my cell phone number and actually call back when you get disconnected.

It's clear to me that she did not call Verizon tech support, since I've called them for almost the exact same issue: my mother-in-law moved and we didn't have the install disk, but I needed the settings for Windows.

Re:CALL VERIZON INSTEAD OF THE NEWS!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks Judge Smales!!! ;-)

Re:CALL VERIZON INSTEAD OF THE NEWS!!!

[Technician]

Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too.

The world still needs PHD's.

(Post Hole Diggers)

Re:CALL VERIZON INSTEAD OF THE NEWS!!!

[John Courtland]

Anyone that runs fiber less than 6ft *under a graveyard* is more of a moron than this woman ever could hope to be.

Re:CALL VERIZON INSTEAD OF THE NEWS!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

+1 for Caddyshack reference

Re:CALL VERIZON INSTEAD OF THE NEWS!!!

[Directrix1]

fall and spring? What is this something that takes months to resolve or something?

Re:CALL VERIZON INSTEAD OF THE NEWS!!!

[MiniMike]

I think we will understand why Verizon fibers get cut...

Re:CALL VERIZON INSTEAD OF THE NEWS!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Revenge of the Nerd?

Oh, Wait....

It's Revenge of the Idiot!

Re:CALL VERIZON INSTEAD OF THE NEWS!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly you are unfamiliar with Caddyshack.

No problem

[ianare]

From TFA :

Verizon says it will dispatch a technician to try to assist her accessing the internet without using the Windows-only installation disk.

MATC also says it promises to accept any of Schubert's papers or class documents using whatever software she has installed.

So what's the fucking problem ?!?

Re:No problem

[MightyYar]

So what's the fucking problem ?!?

The problem is that this girl couldn't figure out how to call Verizon and the school herself. It sounds like Dell worked her over as well, but dropping out of school before calling their help desk is just crazy.

Re:No problem

[PeterFranks]

I think the real problem here is her, not the computer, the school, the operating system, or the internet. She bought something that she did not research, she didn't take the time to learn about it afterward, she panicked, and then she tried to blame everybody else but herself. It happens in every other industry besides computers, making this instance of buyer's remorse nothing special. But since it involves a blonde trying to use a computer, it seems different. Oh well.

Re:No problem

[meist3r]

She's stupid ... stupid people don't like it when they make themselves look stupid. Therefore they blame everyone else to make them look away in shame.

No problem, just fucking stupid embarrassment.

Re:No problem

[holizz]

I think the problem is a lack of initiative on her part mostly (i.e. if she'd talked to her ISP and educational institution, these matters would probably have been resolved sooner), but probably also a relatively unhelpful person in a Dell call centre who could have asked what she thought she needed Windows for and explained how to do those things with what she had.

Re:No problem

[penguinbrat]

MATC also says it promises to accept any of Schubert's papers or class documents using whatever software she has installed.

I could buy Verizon finding some Linux geek in their midst to go and help this girl out for PR reasons - although still a stretch I think, they don't support it is all they would need to say and would be legit. Although, I do have a hard time swallowing this quote - colleges and universities of course have specific classes and such that would deal with Linux or have knowledge of it, although the *rest* of them would have instructors that would not have a clue of what Linux/OpenOffice is, let alone care - Office 101, English, etc.. I'm sure they could find someone, even on staff, although I'm relatively certain that they aren't going to go and install OpenOffice for this girls instructors, and have all this "special" software just for her. Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if they assume that ALL software would create *.doc documents - it is the norm after all isn't it?

Re:No problem

[ianare]

Well they're saying "whatever software", maybe they're aware there are other apps that can read/write .doc format.

Or they may be cool with accepting pdf's or plain text files.

The important thing here is that they're willing to work with people that don't have MS office, which is great. And that woman is a moron.

Re:No problem

[Anonymous Coward]

She hadn't necessarily *not* called the help desk. As someone working for an ISP tech support, it is easily possible that someone calling in with linux would get told they have to get a windows machine if they're going to get online.

It's not *entirely* true, but it can be perceived as the easiest solution, and getting around it still requires internet explorer and *some* internet connection somewhere. And many newer people may not necessarily realize this option exists.

Re:No problem

[MightyYar]

Except that, when you call Verizon Online, you get asked explicitly which OS you are using before you even connect to a live person.

Re:No problem

[rsilvergun]

I do this all the time. When I need help with something and I'm too dumb/lazy to figure out I post a 3 page rant on why it sucks; then sit back and watch the replies flood in. I say Bravo Missy!

Re:No problem

[Anonymous Coward]

So what's the fucking problem ?!?

The problem is that this girl couldn't figure out how to call Verizon and the school herself. It sounds like Dell worked her over as well, but dropping out of school before calling their help desk is just crazy.

While I agree that her reaction to drop out so quickly may have been a bit rash, having taught several online classes myself, the pace is so fast in them that even falling a week behind may mean not being able to catch up (depending on how the class is structured of course).

The follow-up is much more interesting...

[RotsiserMho]

At the end of the article is a link to a follow-up by the assistant news director. It's not quite an apology, but it demonstrates that someone in the Ubuntu community got through to someone at the news station: http://addins.wkowtv.com/blogs/behindthenews/

Re:The follow-up is much more interesting...

[spinkham]

Coral cache link: http://addins.wkowtv.com.nyud.net:8080/blogs/behindthenews/

Re:The follow-up is much more interesting...

[*ThE jEsTeR oF dArKn]

Not for long. Even the blog of a small-town Wisconsin TV station in record-freezing temperatures is no match for the /. tsunami.

Re:The follow-up is much more interesting...

[Anonymous Coward]

FTFA:
"Our Consumer Reporter Dan Cassuto wrote a story Tuesday that caused a bit of a stir among computer-loversâ¦extreme computer lovers."

blame Dell, seriously

[Anonymous Coward]

Their tech support is cr*ptacular.

They argued with me for half an hour the other day that the $1000 monitor I bought doesn't come with any cables and that I had to buy them separately.

Re:blame Dell, seriously

[BOFHelsinki]

Aw shucks. Did you miss semester?

Thank you, I'll be here all semester. Try the Dell.

Until the point at Windows doesn't "just work"

[Viol8]

Can you say "malware", "virus", "trojan"?

Re:Until the point at Windows doesn't "just work"

[Telvin_3d]

If the computer doesn't do what she needs it to do in the first place, why does better security matter? She could put a rock on the desk, call it a computer and be just as productive and free from computer viruses.

Re:Until the point at Windows doesn't "just work"

[Viol8]

The computer did do what she wanted - it would connect to the internet and process Word documents. She was just too stupid to know how to plug in an ethernet cable or double click on a .doc

Re:Until the point at Windows doesn't "just work"

[Shikaku]

Wine has serious compatibility issues with most viruses. They should fix this.

Re:Until the point at Windows doesn't "just work"

[Anonymous Coward]

The computer did do what she wanted

In your hands, maybe, but not in hers. The equipment was beyond the skill of the user, and thus useless. Calling her stupid doesn't help.

Re:Until the point at Windows doesn't "just work"

[SanityInAnarchy]

The equipment was beyond the skill of the user, and thus useless.

Either of those things would have been required with Windows. Just about any computer would be useless in her hands. Five minutes with a competent tech/teacher, and she'd be fine.

And, hey, an hour of training is almost certainly cheaper than multiple hours cleaning out viruses/spyware, or recovering data. That is why security is relevant.

Re:Until the point at Windows doesn't "just work"

[mhall119]

She isn't stupid for not knowing how, she's stupid for giving up on not one but two semesters of school rather than try and figure it out.

Re:Until the point at Windows doesn't "just work"

[atraintocry]

You just dropped over a thousand dollars on a device. You didn't do your homework before spending that much, but let's ignore that for now. You don't know how to use it yet. Do you:

(a) crack open the manual
(b) ask for help
(c) call the news?

Re:Until the point at Windows doesn't "just work"

[Techman83]

Actually no it doesn't. You really do have to be careful with Wine :P

Re:Until the point at Windows doesn't "just work"

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, calling her stupid makes a lot of sense and does actually help.

To many times people don't know when to ask for help or where to look for it. This goes far beyond computers but pointing out the idiocy of what happened and the claims that were made before puts the discussion into the limelight. This in exchange informs people that they can find help, there are ways to do things, they aren't overly complicated, and so on.

Stupid is not knowing something and being incapable of learning it. Ignorant is just not knowing it yet, Often they are confused for each others but this does bring up a number of "this is available" and "you could do this" scenarios that will more then help anyone else in this position. If we just shut up about it or did the "oh poor you" bleeding heart thing, no one would be the wiser, not even the women in question.

Personally, I don't think Dell or anyone else should be responsible for you, her, or anyone else who makes a mistake when ordering something. If Dell made the mistake and her invoice said windows or something, then yea, dell needs to make it right. But if your forking over 300 or more dollars, you need to verify what your spending it on. There are plenty of women (*men too) who aren't mechanics but they seem to be able to find someone capable of helping them look at a used car to make sure it will do what they want and be reliable enough for them.

In other news...

[pato101]

...a guy couldn't finish his work because a virus killed his Windows HP computer... and blames HP for it...

RTFM?

[OglinTatas]

If she can't RTFM, how is she going to read the texts for her classes?

Re:RTFM?

[Anonymous Coward]

She didn't RTFM because she was too busy reading texts for her classes.

Re:RTFM?

[Anonymous Coward]

If she can't RTFM, how is she going to read the texts for her classes?

If she read the RTFM, how will she have time to read the texts for her classes?

Re:RTFM?

[Anonymous Coward]

Complain that she didn't get the class she wanted and blame the school.

Idiocy

[Thanshin]

A Wisconsin woman has claimed that General Motors has kept her from going back to school. She says she has called GM to request a bike instead however was talked out of it. Her current claim is that she was unaware that she couldn't drive.

Re:Idiocy

[Anonymous Coward]

She says she has called GM to request a bike instead however was talked out of it

She says she has called GM to request a 15-foot tall rusting tricycle with one wheel, no brakes, handlebars made from barbed wire and a seat fashioned from a giant dildo labelled "Certified for Windows"; however was talked out of it

There, fixed that for you

Re:Idiocy

[kellyb9]

She doesn't know the difference. Sure, YOU think she's a moron, but consider this, you buy a new car from GM. When you turn it on, the battery, which just so happens to be made by a contractor, doesn't work , YOU blame GM instead of the contractor because you don't know the difference.

Sure it's a silly example, but from her perspective thats what's happening.

Re:Idiocy

[hldn]

you're missing part of the analogy.

you buy a new car from GM. When you turn it on, the battery, which just so happens to be made by a contractor, doesn't work.. instead of going to a mechanic or contacting GM to find out what's wrong, you drop out of college, then call the news station and blame GM for causing you to drop out.

she's not an idiot for not knowing linux, she's an idiot for the other stuff.

Re:Idiocy

[virtualXTC]

No, you are missing parts to your analogy; it should have went like this:

A WI woman claims Honda has kept her from going back to school. She accidentally purchased an all-electric vehicle and when she tried to return it she was convinced to keep it. Later on the back home from the dealership she was unable to refill the car at the gas station because they wouldn't sell her electricity. When she later tried to go to school, she ran out of power and was stranded on the side of the road. It was too late to return the car to Honda as she had put over 100 miles, and with no gas station to bring it to she dropped out of fall and spring semesters.

Re:Idiocy

[eugene2k]

Lol:) It's more like this though: A woman claims Toyota prevented her from going to college. As a result she had to drop out of college. The woman ordered a Toyota vehicle online, but when she finaly got it delivered she realised it was a right hand drive car. She called toyota customer support, but the manager assured her that the RHD is just as good as the LHD, the japanese and the british all love it, and it won't be a problem for her. Only when the woman got into the car had she realised that the wheel on the right side is just half the problem. The pedals were on the right side of the car too! So with no way to reach the wheel and the pedals from the left front seat the woman had to drop out of college. Poor thing.

Huh?

[Logical Zebra]

So the woman is suing the company because she lacks the mental capacity to properly use their product?

Re:Huh?

[LingNoi]

Still not as bad as the women who doesn't understand that -5 is higher then -8.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1022757_cool_cash_card_confusion

What's depressing is that the clerk was fooled into believing she won too which means there is more then one idiot out there.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

People capable of understanding absolute value are the absolute last to value lottery tickets.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

I find it way more depressing that you can't seem to be able to understand the difference between "than" and "then".

She must have talked to a slashdotter

[elrous0]

she has called Dell to request Windows instead however was talked out of it"

Re:She must have talked to a slashdotter

[Anonymous Coward]

Parent should probably be modded +1funny but it's also insightful. Dell's website seems to go entirely out of its way to convince you to switch back to the windows machines if happened to "accidentally" stumble on the open source options.

Re:She must have talked to a slashdotter

[LingNoi]

Obviously twitter was on the line..

joking aside i'm sure if you got the call.

"My DSL won't work, I need to submit in Microsoft word format"

That you wouldn't first tell the customer that your ubuntu machine can actually do those things without much effort.

For Dell support to offer a replacement machine over such a lame excuse they'd probably get a talking to about wasting resources.

I could understand if she had genuine problems such as running a windows game or something however it seems to be more to do with having no technical knowledge of how to operate a computer. I mean she's taking computer classes for a reason.

Re:She must have talked to a slashdotter

[Spatial]

Obviously twitter was on the line..

Wrong. He was on every line.

dumb

[Anonymous Coward]

dumb dumb

So what just happened here?

[Minwee]

A customer ordered a product, received something quite different which was not only not what she wanted but not something which she could use, called the vendor to complain and was told to just keep it "because it's better", instead of trying to return it. As a result, she couldn't get any of her work done as it required the original product which she had actually requested.

Why would I be surprised to find that she was dealing with Dell? Or that some smug bastard here has called it 'funny'?

Re:So what just happened here?

[Todd Knarr]

Actually, it shouldn't require the original product. She doesn't need to install Verizon's access disk, for example, she simply needs to get her Internet connection up and running. On Linux that should just be a matter of configuring the network interface, and Ubuntu should have prompted her for it when it detected her network card the first time she fired the system up. Mostly it's just a matter of entering the username and password your ISP gave you. That Verizon tries to claim you must use their software when you don't is a Verizon issue. Similarly for Word. She doesn't need to use Word, she needs to open and create Word documents. Ubuntu comes with several pieces of software that do just that.

The problem is that too many people today confuse using a tool vs. doing a task. It's as pathetic as a mechanic standing looking at a toolbox full of Snap-on wrenches in all sizes and complaining that he can't do his job, he doesn't have a Matco #870334 wrench to tighten a nut with when it's a standard 3/4" nut, there's 5 3/4" wrenches staring him in the face and his "problem" is that he's confused "having the right brand name" with "being the right tool". If a mechanic held a 3/4" Snap-on box-end wrench in your face and said "I can't use this to tighten this 3/4" nut, it's not a Matco.", you'd laugh in his face.

Re:So what just happened here?

[infalliable]

Problem is she didn't know what they hell she had or wanted.

The way it's worded, she called and said she had something other than Windows and the computer wasn't working. The tech/customer service rep said that Ubuntu would work, it's a good OS. Then she did an "Uh, okay."

Dell, in general, is pretty good about sending replacements and correcting orders in my experience. I've done it multiple times. I've got replacement RAM, audio cards, Hard drives, and monitors out of them without ever being a PITA. You have to sit through some garbage first depending on the issue ("is the PC plugged in?"), but they'll do it. I've even talked to reps and had them honor last weeks sale prices without any trouble. You just have to know what you want.

She had no clue.

Re:So what just happened here?

[tepples]

That Verizon tries to claim you must use their software when you don't is a Verizon issue.

What alternative is there? The article doesn't say either way whether a cable company offers high-speed Internet access to the household.

Similarly for Word. She doesn't need to use Word, she needs to open and create Word documents.

Unless the class requires the use of features of Microsoft Word that OpenOffice.org does not yet replicate. But fortunately, this isn't the case in the situation of the article.

Re:So what just happened here?

[Todd Knarr]

No alternative needed. Even in Windows you don't need to use Verizon's software to configure network access through them. You can do it all using the standard Windows network configuration dialogs.

As far as features, I haven't found any basic or intermediate features that aren't in both. And the advanced features that are don't belong in a college course, they belong in a vocational-ed class specifically in "How to Use Microsoft Word". Mechanics, for example, don't get classes in "How to Use Matco Wrenches", they get taught "How to Torque Down a Bolt".

Re:So what just happened here?

[jbolden]

Lets be accurate here. Nothing so far has required the original product.

Re:So what just happened here?

[starfishsystems]

Mod up. Obligatory vehicle analogy: if I ordered a compact car and was given a really excellent pickup truck instead, chances are that I'd be unhappy too. It's no criticism of the truck. Another time, I might want the truck, but not right now.

What we have is a problem with vendors making condescending assumptions. Some tech support guy at Dell is a Linux enthusiast (great) but expresses a bias against Windows when dealing with this customer. Verizon, instead of providing general connectivity to its network, is biased toward Windows, putting this customer at a disadvantage. MATC likewise presents a bias toward Windows when in fact OpenOffice.org would be quite sufficient.

To put this whole computer literacy thing in perspective, something approaching 20 percent of Americans and Canadians are functionally illiterate. Similarly, many people go out and buy computers despite not knowing the first thing about using them. Let's treat these people with compassion.

Ironically...

[rarel]

... what TFA doesn't say is that she wanted to take online classes from that school.

Exactly

[daveschroeder]

This connects with what I just said below you.

Sure, we can mock it, but there are real issues here:

- She doesn't know that she doesn't need to install any "Verizon High Speed Internet CD" in order for her Verizon DSL to function.

- She doesn't know that OpenOffice.org can handle her needs for "Microsoft Word" just fine

- She probably wouldn't know that Firefox can handle all of her browsing needs even where another OS is specified (under most circumstances)

So how can we bridge those kinds of gaps?

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

You've obviously never used Verizon DSL. Their system requires a login/password which is generated via their Windows-only software when you're setting things up. Once you have that you no longer need Windows to connect to the internet, but you do need to that once to get the system & modem set up.

Seriously. No joke.

I presume you can set that stuff up over the phone if you have a Mac or something, but that's probably non-obvious for someone who accidentally orders a Linux laptop.

And, also, Firefox cannot necessarily handle all of her "browsing needs". It's not always Firefox's fault, but there's a reason I have IE Tab set up for a handful of sites and it's not because I'm a web developer.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

We'll just rename everything!

Seriously, I did time at a college computer lab. Besides busting people for looking at pr0n we setup some linux boxes and just renamed everything. No one knew except the CS students.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

Dell customer service, like any sales team, need to check that what they say is what a potential customer hears and understands. Equally, any OS that isn't already familiar, needs a hand holding option, so it could boot a new account with a 'wizard' option that she could have selected.

Re:Exactly

[Phu5ion]

Wow, well then Verizon DSL is even more worthless than I thought it was. I know that with SBC or Qwest you can log onto the modem and connect via the firmware on the box. No Windows-only software required.

Re:Exactly

[t35t0r]

So how can we bridge those kinds of gaps? By educating people. Unfortunately Linux users have the tendency to call people idiots unless you approach them with "xyz OS desktop/OS can do this but blahblah Linux distro can't" .

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, many people are still in the realm of "It came with a CD, so I have to use it". Another assumption I have to use is that she isn't as computer literate as a lot of people on this site. Those reasons alone pose problems, and with Ubuntu, or any linux distro (for that matter), there is a steeper learning curve. Only time and education can bridge the gap, but people have to be willing to listen and break free of the "old ways"

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

One word: advertising.
That's what it was meant for in the first place ;-)

Re:Exactly

[Koiu Lpoi]

And, also, Firefox cannot necessarily handle all of her "browsing needs". It's not always Firefox's fault, but there's a reason I have IE Tab set up for a handful of sites and it's not because I'm a web developer.

I wonder how those Mac and Linux people even get around the web these days... Or does Safari and Konqueror fill the gap that IE leaves?
For consumer-space internet, I haven't run into an IE-only website since... well, Maplestory used to be IE only...

Unless you're running some archaic banking software that uses ActiveX (or something like it), there's simply no reason to claim that.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

One thing I do not get is MS on this issue.

Linux *IS* becoming semi mainstream. They should be ALL over porting Office to Linux. They even have a semi good head start with the Mac ver...

Raise your hands folks if you had a non monitary choice between a copy of office and a copy of OpenOffice which you would chose? I am sure a few will answer 'i dont use closed source stuff on my computer'. But if both were 'free as in $$' which would you seriously pick?

Ive used both. OpenOffice is 'usable' but it has a wordperfect feel to it. But I always thought that way of working was semi broken. But that is just me. If I were to give it to my mom she probably would like it as she prefers wordperfect to office.

But in a school environment I can see why dictating particular set of tools is a good idea. If you use a slightly different tool in the class the teacher may be able to roll with it and help you. But NOW the teacher has to take time and stop teaching everyone else to help just you because you are bit different. It is not exactly fair to the others is it? Just because you want to use the 'weird' tool. That is what I do not get, and people get pig headed about it too. You are making the teacher do extra work that is not really needed to be done. Or let me put it this way. Lets say you had a noisy user who insisted on using a mac in a windows shop. You worked on a custom application. How would you feel if every little bug weird thing was blamed on you because he refuses to use a particular thing? After the 5 or 6th time you would become VERY resentful. Teachers are in the same boat. Some may very well know there are choices out there (or not). But do not wish to dedicate the time to helping you fix your pc...

Re:Exactly

[Phroggy]

You've obviously never used Verizon DSL. Their system requires a login/password which is generated via their Windows-only software when you're setting things up. Once you have that you no longer need Windows to connect to the internet, but you do need to that once to get the system & modem set up.

Does anyone have more information about this? I don't live in Verizon territory, so I don't have first-hand experience. Presumably the username/password in question is for PPPOE, but I would expect them to simply tell you what it is, then have you type that into their Windows-only config program, not the other way around.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

So how can we bridge those kinds of gaps?

Genocide.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

Although this doesn't exactly seem to be the problem with this particular case, I had a little trouble with one of my online courses last semester. I run windows and prefer to use Firefox as my browser. My online class demanded that I use their "lockdown browser" which is just an awful browser. I could create a far more functional one with the built-in browser functions in visual studio in 20 minutes. Even running windows and having the 10+ years of experience with computers I ran into a few hurdles.

How do we bridge those gaps? We need developers (web developers and software developers alike) to be more user-friendly. Sure, I know that the website reads my user-agent to see what browser I'm using, and I know how to spoof that (with a firefox addon, or in the about:config). But I shouldn't have to. Web developers need to understand that just because every windows machine comes with IE doesn't mean that the users will use it.

It takes just a minute or so to find out what percent of the market share Firefox and other browsers have, and honestly, anything with more than about 15% share should be at least considered by web developers. Especially developers on such a level that are getting paid the big bucks to develop for that educational institution.

It sort of reminds me of a long time ago when any processor not INTEL even AMDs were considered 'generic' by lots of computers.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

I am the AC you replied to.

Among other things, my corporate intranet and our webmail/remote access stuff is IE only. Well, I mean, it kinda-sorta works in Firefox. But it's awful.

Re:Exactly

[mea37]

Ok, no factual disagreement on the basic point, that a service that requires a particular OS sucks. But I wonder how many people are grasping the real issue here...

You, and many others, when faced with a reason why this situation didn't work for a common user, focus on reasons why those issues shouldn't be issues.

Well, that's why 2009 won't be the year of Linux on the desktop. "Linux to conquer the world" is much more ambitious a goal than "Linux to conquer a made-up world in which only problems that 'should' exist do exist".

Some people go as far as to attack the user for not knowing enough, or for not handling the situation the way the poster thinks he/she would've handled it even if they didn't know what they know. Well, again, "Linux for the common user" is far more ambitious than "Linux for the common user where common user is defined to be like me".

Linux will be hindered in the consumer market as long as the typical approach is to think that the market should change to accept Linux, and not the other way around. And that's fine if that's what Linux wants to be -- but just don't act confused about why other OS's still dominate the desktop.

Re:Exactly

[ZarathustraDK]

So how can we bridge those kinds of gaps?

Kill the stupid people?

I mean, we're already stealing marketshares, we might as well go all in with all these vices.

Re:Exactly

[internerdj]

Well the linux community's answer seems to be if we ridicule people enough they will stop being intellectually lazy and learn something, which from my perspective seems to be itself intellectually lazy.
If all us tech folks weren't afraid of even the most basic attempt at bridging the gap from technical work to actual human interaction, then there wouldn't be such a big deal about forcing people to make even the most basic comments in their code. Most of us hate to do that type of work, and the biggest problem with FOSS is that people get to volunteer for their tasks; so, the things companies have to force out of their developers and have to hire dedicated people to get done are severely underserved. The truely sad thing for adoption is the community wants to supplant Microsoft's dominance but not take actually have to deal with Microsoft's typical users.

Re:Exactly

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

- She doesn't know that OpenOffice.org can handle her needs for "Microsoft Word" just fine

I have to call you, and many, many others on this statement. Sure, OpenOffice does handle standard word documents without too much trouble. But time and again I have encountered heavily customised word documents with tick boxes, mixed colum formatting, etc, etc, which Openoffice simply cannot display with fidelity. And by fidelity, I mean make sure the danm funding form fits on one page and not bleed it over onto the second.

Sure, you may think these documents are obscure. Trouble is they aren't. They are typically, ancient Word 97 produced affairs, devised by a "self educated" whiz somewhere in the accounting department with too much time on their hands . Universities are saturated with these documents, as is any small or medium sized company that has ever had such a "whiz" in their employ. They're sort of like one of those custom Access programs written by a non-programmer that slowly grow and mutate. It suffices to say that Open Office, while it does not choke, simply cannot cope under the strain of displaying them.

The essential problem here is that people feel they NEED to use MS Word or an equivalent program for absolutely everything. I have been sent emails containing nothing but an MS Word attachment in which is contained... the "letter" I was being sent. It's crazy. If I am ever in a position where I am accepting or grading papers, or summaries, or memos, or whatever, each and every single submission will be required to be a simple TXT file. They're perfectly adequate for just about everything except diagrams, and if they need to use those they can be submitted as attachments.

- She probably wouldn't know that Firefox can handle all of her browsing needs even where another OS is specified (under most circumstances)

One word. Flash. This is not a settled issue on any Linux system to this day. Sure it can work, but not on every system. The situtation with flash in Linux closely resembles that of video drivers about five years ago, when it was still necessary in many instances to edit xfree86 conf files or the like. With the ever growing domination of youtube, a browser without guaranteed out of the box flash is seriously deficient. Not even Ubuntu has this.

Re:Exactly

[thtrgremlin]

The issue is that Windows is easy to get started with, and there isn't a lot to learn. Simple GUIs for everything, and you wouldn't know about any advanced features unless you looked them up and knew what you were doing.

Linux is about productivity first. Linux is easy to use, but not completely obvious. With the power to begin any complicated task just a click or keyword away, it can feel like being dropped into an ocean and being asked to swim. The most extreme example of this type of design where productivity is valued over obviousness or 'intuitiveness' is Blender3D. Blender is a F***ING nightmare to figure a damn thing out. I used 3D studio max and poked around and was modeling simple buildings and funny creatures in a matter of hours. Blender I was just like WTF!?! and by the time I figured out how to draw a simple cube, I gave up. Last summer, I thought I would give it another go after watching Elephant Dreams. I figured, ok, of they can do this, I must be able to do better than a box. I thought: What would be the pragmatic way of going about this. Hmm.. Read the damn documentation maybe? The first thing the documentation covered was that the GUI ia intentionally designed a very particular way and they are NOT going to change it. While it requires a lot of memorization, once you 'get it', it will enable you to model faster than ever. Despite not knowing how to do anything, the GUI didn't seem so 'stupid' anymore. If every little detail was very well thought out, then I needed to give it a chance. I jumped on youtube and did a search for "Blender tutorial". MANY results. I picked a series and followed along. While the controls were not obvious in any way, they were easy to remember and simple to use. Every few videos or so, I would try to figure something out on my own, but usually with complete failure. But continuing with the videos, each 20 minute segment was showing me whole new aspects of what could be done. I got to give credit where credit is due. super3boy did a pretty good job. The videos were a bit on the crude side, and the examples were really simple and drawn out, but considering how effective he was in assisting me with my learning, it was perfect. I even showed a friend that had never even much used a computer but to check email, and within a week we were making beautiful scenes, fun simple games, and such. Water, fireworks, explosives taking out buildings, whatever came to mind could be put together right away as the thoughts unfolded. It wasn't like having to think of one part then work through it and then think about the next part after the first part was done.

Anyway, the point is, Linux can be over whelming. I know many people are interested in Linux, but watch people who are comfortable with it, and it all just looks like magic. I have been using Linux for several years now, and I still see people do clever things that appear "magical". Maybe that is why Macs are so popular. I don't think there is anything I have ever seen done on a mac that couldn't be copied by a monkey. Maybe that is the appeal. One simple way to do certain things that people want to do with their computer that make them look cool. But while mac is much like a "choose your own adventure" novel, Linux can feel like pencil and paper, but give it a little time and energy, it is more like Harold's Purple Crayon.

I can understand that some people just want the choose your own adventure. I get that. But Linux enables your computer to be a tool, and as with any complex piece of machinery, the novice needs a teacher. Just because its complex and there is much to learn doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the machine. It means people need help. This is why I feel the Linux community is so strong. It is necessary for people to share their knowledge. It requires upstream developers to hang out in their own irc channel. It requires LOTS of third party documentation to a

Re:Exactly

[jbolden]

That is a verizon.net account. You go to verizon.net and generate the login / password.

Re:Exactly

[StarWreck]

And, also, Firefox cannot necessarily handle all of her "browsing needs". It's not always Firefox's fault, but there's a reason I have IE Tab set up for a handful of sites and it's not because I'm a web developer.

Finance and Health Insurance websites used to be the worst, they'd always pop up with that little screen "Sorry, your browser is not compatible.

But that was freaking 2 years ago. I havn't run into a Firefox non-compatible website in probably over a year now. Firefox works awesome with all the Finance and Insurance sites fine now. I've tested it on Wachovia, Bank of America, Chase, ING Direct, American Express, Hewitt Financial, Blue-Cross/Blue-Shield, and United Healthcare and they all work perfectly.

In fact, I've been running into more and more websites that are broken on IE 6. Slashdot for instance... Works fine on IE7 and Firefox but have to scroll down through pages of blankness until I get to the content. My company runs non-web software that breaks if we install IE7, so I pretty much have no choice but to use a 3rd party browser for surfing and I really like Firefox anyway.

Re:Exactly

[Kindaian]

If she accidentally ordered a box with the wrong OS she should have had it replaced, not talked about it...

So, it's her fault 100%.

Not Dell or UBUNTO...

Re:Exactly

[joggle]

Remember, she did call Dell back when she found out she had Ubuntu installed instead of Windows and they somehow convinced her that it would work for her.

How did they convince her? She must have told them that she needed Office for her courses. The only way I can imagine them convincing her that Ubuntu would work is by telling her about Open Office.

They probably also gave her a primer on using Ubuntu including telling her about Firefox and I wouldn't be surprised if they told her to go to 192.168.0.1 on Firefox in order to get her internet connection configured.

My guess is most of this information went through one ear and out the other so she was left with the feeling of being OK without actually knowing anything more than before she made the call.

Re:Exactly

[CodeBuster]

I have Verizon DSL at home (I live in a rural area and Comcast cable, which has its own issues, was not available in the area until very recently) and it does not require any windows only software. I have a WRT54G wireless router with the Thibor 15c firmware plugged directly into the DSL modem. I have Ubuntu, WindowsXP, and OSX users all connecting via the wireless router, no special software required other than network drivers and configuration utility for the wireless card on the OS of choice.

Re:Exactly

[MBGMorden]

And, also, Firefox cannot necessarily handle all of her "browsing needs". It's not always Firefox's fault, but there's a reason I have IE Tab set up for a handful of sites and it's not because I'm a web developer.

This may have been true 3-4 years ago, but it's been a good while since I found any site that didn't work correctly in Firefox. It (and other browsers such as Safari) have gotten WAY too popular for web developers to code a site that is IE only these days.

Re:Exactly

[charlesnw]

How do you go to a website if you can't go online? What use is a web based setup program if you can't get online? (oblig matrix reference)

Re:Exactly

[Tarlus]

Their system requires a login/password which is generated via their Windows-only software when you're setting things up.

Are you sure that's the only way? Please inform me if I'm wrong since I have no experience with Verizon's DSL. But when I used to use Qwest for DSL they also had Windows-only software for configuring the DSL modem.

The software was actually nothing more than a picturebook guide that helped you make sure that everything was wired correctly, and it would then interface with the modem to collect authentication information.

However, it was also possible for me to just access the modem's configuration directly with a web browser (via default gateway, just the same as any common home web router). I was able to completely configure my sister's DSL this way, using only Firefox on a Debian computer.

Re:Exactly

[lagomorpha2]

- She probably wouldn't know that Firefox can handle all of her browsing needs even where another OS is specified (under most circumstances)

Under most circumstances is correct. I had a math class in college that had online homework. Unfortunately the site would refuse to work with anything other than internet explorer on microsoft windows. Even installing the plug-ins for firefox that made it emulate internet explorer wouldn't fool the site.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

When I was working at a Sony store, a lady came in complaining about her Windows PC, because her son wasn't able to underline words, or use different fonts, in his homework assignments. Her son was using Notepad. I explained to her that she needed an office suite, and she could either buy MS Office, or download OpenOffice.

How was that lady's problem using Windows any different than this lady's problem using Linux?

Lack of knowledge is lack of knowledge.

At least in the case I described, the lady bothered to ask someone what she needed to do.

Re:Exactly

[Robin47]

I set the network up with a windows machine. I had one handy so I didn't give it a second thought after that.I'm not even sure where it is now.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

Teach it in school. I think that's just about the only way. The current generation is lost. We teach some teachers how to teach using and finding free software on the internet, and how to evaluate such software (i.e. make sure it's not a virus, not spyware, not installing a virus or spyware, etc), and then how to figure out how to use it.

Alternatively, she needs to find a company that can help people adjust from one operating system (whatever that might be) to another (whatever that might be) with no judgements based on what they're coming from to what they're going to.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

I have Qwest now and had Verizon before. Qwest sends you your name/password in the mail. Verizon does not. QED.

Re:Exactly

[Midnight Thunder]

If she accidentally ordered a box with the wrong OS she should have had it replaced, not talked about it...

Certainly, but it doesn't sound like Dell was being helpful.

One thing that annoys about Dell is that they offer Red Hat on some of their high end portables, yet it does not include the drivers for the Ethernet connector or the audio. You can't find them on their site either. That sucks big time. Ubuntu was eventually installed on that machine, independent of Dell, and that handled the hardware just fine.

Re:Exactly

[Kamokazi]

You have to inform the general public, and the only way to do that is to get the knowledge in mainstream sources that many people see. That means:

A) Major news networks

B) Other big-name TV, Radio and Print sources

C) Major online destinations

D) Included with other products people buy

To get on those, you have to either pay out the ass for advertising, or be interesting content that they want to present to viewers/listeners/readers/customers.

Advertising on that scale is way to expensive for a free product. The only things that are generally newsworthy are about Microsoft, Apple, Intel, etc. One possible type of source that could educate the public is a place like Google or Wikipedia. Places that are big, and that have goals 'somewhat' in line with the ideals of FOSS. You see that happening a little with Firefox, but nothing about Linux or FOSS in general.

The last, and probably best option, is kind of what caused this mess. Computers with Linux and other FOSS pre-loaded. This forces people to learn...but can also piss them off at the same time, as was with this case. It's up to the manufacturers to make sure the Linux experience is good for end users, because they customize the distro that goes on their hardware. Netbooks are definately the front-runners in this space, and the problem there is Microsoft realizes it, so they are doing their best to keep Windows on a lot of those netbooks, and they're doing a good job. Manufacturers also have incentive to keep Windows on them, not just from Microsoft, but because it's much easier for them to support. Their callcenter staff don't have to be trained on Linux, and the users will have fewer calls because they are using something familiar to them (whether or not there are more support calls with Windows in the long run is debatable).

I personally think it's going to be a Windows, and possibly OSX world for a while...eventually Linux may become mainstream enough, but I think it will take years and years for it to happen. The year of Linux on the desktop, if it ever comes, is probably a decade away. Unless the way we use computers changes significantly. Cloud computing, web apps, or whatever buzzword tickles your fancy....the point is, a significant change means opportunity for anyone to come in and topple the existing system.

Re:Exactly

[Blakey Rat]

I've used Verizon DSL my entire life, and I've never had to use a program to generate a login/password. I've always just plugged my computer/router/whatever into their DSL modem, and it worked just fine.

(I think at one point I did create a username online, so I could get updates when there were rate changes, technical issues, etc, but I've never actually checked that email account and I highly doubt I have the password anymore. And in any case, I did that online so I was already using the DSL.)

Re:Exactly

[LeafOnTheWind]

You can use the web interface on your DSL modem at the default address of 192.168.1.1 to login and configure your internet access.

If you have FiOS, the installation rep will set it up, but the system is simply DHCP, so that's not really necessary.

Re:Exactly

[Blakey Rat]

That's still calling them idiots, it's just a slightly more subtle way: "you're an implied idiot because I know what the capabilities of X are and you don't."

Re:Exactly

[Ice Station Zebra]

There are a lot on IE only web sites in the on-line education industry.

Re:Exactly

[Cramer]

She doesn't know that she doesn't need to install any "Verizon High Speed Internet CD" in order for her Verizon DSL to function

You haven't setup a new DSL connection in the last few years have you? You MUST install their Windows(TM) only, machine fucking, bloatware bullshit to run the absurdly stupid IE only ActiveX control to do a single HTTP POST to create a username and password. Even Bellsouth's COMMERCIAL business users have to go through this complete fucking bullshit. I had nothing nice to say to the Live Chat Customer Support minion when this was forced down my throat. Based on my experience, be ready to completely wipe and reinstall the machine used for this crap. As a side note, Norton AV will not let you install their crap.

She doesn't know that OpenOffice.org can handle her needs for "Microsoft Word" just fine

Nice try, but no it doesn't. If you are writing papers that are printed and handed in, then yes, it will do. However in today's world, you don't hand in printed papers -- and we're talking about an online school, so she'll most certainly be expected to upload her .doc files.

She probably wouldn't know that Firefox can handle all of her browsing needs even where another OS is specified (under most circumstances)

Don't bet on it. All it takes is one ActiveX control and you're screwed. (Personally, I prefer Opera, but to each his own.)

Re:Exactly

[poetmatt]

Doesn't matter if she used Verizon, or anything.

Why? Because she didn't call tech support. I'm sure verizon could have helped TONS if she would have called a helpdesk/support line instead of a lawyer.

Re:Exactly

[MerryOtter]

Western Union, I found out recently, requires IE7 to send a wire online. Firefox is not supported, no joke.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

This has very little to do with what she doesn't know, and more to do with the requirements of the college. Many classes require a specific version of Microsoft Word, and while OpenOffice can save file in a .doc format, often there is a loss of some formatting.

Also, many of the web applications colleges use for their online courses require internet explorer to run their special active x plugins.

How to bridge these gaps? The only real way would be to convince the developers of the colleges website to support other browsers/operating systems, and convince the school to allow the Open Document format.

Re:Exactly

[jimicus]

By educating people.

If that worked, ILOVEYOU would have been the last ever thing to spread through Outlook and companies wouldn't need to enact blanket banning policies on emailing executable files.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

In my experience most online class websites have only supported IE as a browser.

Re:Exactly

[jbolden]

1) Do it ahead of time
2) Do it at school, at a library, a coffee shop with internet access
3) Jump on a neighbors wireless
4) Use your cell phone

etc...

Re:Exactly

[BetterSense]

I called ATT when I set up my DSL because the materials they sent only mentioned mac and windows. The customer services representative told me that they only supported those OS and you needed them in order to get online. Obviously they were lying, but think about when a person like this encounters a similar snag. Linux is still under the radar and everyone refuses to support it. The student help desk here at the university has a big sheet on the wall where you walk in that says they do not support unix operating systems.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

The verizion cd is indicative of a particularly vexing problem in the industry. There are mechanisms built into operating systems to accomplish certain tasks that technical people know how to accomplish. Verizion, or any other big coorporate ISP or software vendor then send these disks to consumers that are just as complicated as the operating system method, but not standard so the technical know-how on the operating system level is laid to waste, and the consumer thinks they need this physical item specific to their operating system to make it work.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

- She probably wouldn't know that Firefox can handle all of her browsing needs even where another OS is specified (under most circumstances)

As for Firefox... I have been to several websites, mainly financial but some educational, that REQUIRE the use of IE. Sad, but (for some stupid reason) true.

Re:Exactly

[Cramer]

It's getting rarer these days, but there are still a**holes that code things that will only work in IE. And there are some regular html/javascript setups that don't work too well in "other browsers" -- vmware server for one, dell's support site for two.

Re:Exactly

[Chris Tucker]

I use Verizon DSL. Used it under OS 9 and now OS X.

It's been so many years since I opened the account, I have forgotten most of the details.

But, I assure you, I DID NOT need to use their CD in any way shape or form. Because there was NO OS 9 compatible software on the disc.

I did have to call tech support, due to some minor oddness with the DSL router/modem and OS 9, involving AppleTalk, I think. In any event, the tech blew the dust off the OS 9 script and within a few minutes, the G3 Mac was online via DSL.

No Windows involved at end at all.

Re:Exactly

[Cramer]

The thing is, your username and password don't exist until you run that crap to create it. Why there isn't a simple, pure HTML web page to set all this up is way beyond me.

Re:Exactly

[plague3106]

They don't require a particular OS, as evidenced by the fact they are going to get her laptop setup with it. What they didn't do is create a really easy to use setup cd for a fringe OS. I can hardly fault them for that.

As far as her other problem, a quick tutorial on startup may help (you want to do this in Windows, here's how in Linux).

Re:Exactly

[jc42]

Unfortunately Linux users have the tendency to call people idiots unless you approach them with "xyz OS desktop/OS can do this but blahblah Linux distro can't".

Actually, this has little to do with fortune or with linux. It's a fundamental feature of human psychology. The computer industry has long been plagued by it, of course, but it's much more general. The best approach is to just the above as the best approach.

Thus, back in the 1980s, when I first got onto unix systems and faced the problem known as "emacs vs. vi", I found the same thing. If I asked in any forum "How do you do task T with editor E?", the answer inevitably was of the form "WTF? RTFM, n00b!"

But I quickly learned that the proper approach was to phrase the question as a negative statement: "Hey guys, emacs can do T, but vi can't." This would almost always be answered by one or more explanations of exactly how to do it in vi. Interchange "emacs" and "vi" to learn about doing T in emacs. Sometimes they would insult me, too, but I learned to dig the facts out of the insults and go on my way. Yes, I learned the basic mechanics of both editors from smallish manuals. But the real learning was done by claiming that an editor couldn't do something, and waiting for the experts to show what a dummy I was.

I did eventually settle on vi, mostly because I found myself doing a lot of work on machines that were borked somehow, or were on the other end of a semi-sane network link that ate control characters, or whatever. I'd make the claim that "Emacs/vi can't be used unless you have a totally sane link to a totally sane system". The vi experts responded by explaining things like the "ex" interface and other tricks that made it usable in most cases. They also suggested learning "ed" and "sed" for extreme failure situations, but I'd already done that. OTOH, the emacs experts never answered such charges, telling me that emacs really wasn't usable on a damaged system. So I went with vi, while envying the folks that never had to deal with recovering a brain-damaged system or negotiating with comm gadgets that ate control characters.

So maybe our tactic should be to teach people to approach linux experts with the "Linux can't do T" sort of charge. Don't ask the linux experts how to do T; challenge them to teach a dummy like you that linux can do task T. This will also help greatly with getting info about Windows, of course, but that's probably not what most readers here want to do. I've also found that this tactic does wonders with getting Mac fanboys to loosen up, stop chanting "It Just Works!", and explain how to get the little things to do the job right.

Claiming that "System S can't do task T" is a general tactic that the public should know about when dealing with any tech experts. If we educate people about it, it might go a long way toward getting them on our side by making their computers do what they want.

My current favorite claim is that linux software can't print UTF-8-encoded text with stuff like Arabic or Chinese text. I suspect that this probably isn't true, because linux is widely used in Asia. But so far, it seems true, because about all I've found is assertions that it's possible, without any coherent explanation of how people (in Asia?) are doing it. (I've also collected a list of email addresses of people around the world saying that if I find a good answer, I should forward a copy to them. ;-)

(The Mac crowd also doesn't answer this charge, either, so apparently Macs can't print UTF-8 text, either. I'd be happy to be proved an idiot here ...)

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

I am the AC you replied to.

Among other things, my corporate intranet and our webmail/remote access stuff is IE only. Well, I mean, it kinda-sorta works in Firefox. But it's awful.

Dont forget vanilla people soft. It employs so much CSS breakage to look the way it does, its nearly unusable in Firefox or Webkit based browsers.

Re:Exactly

[DJ Particle]

If Verizon is not OS-agnostic, she needs a new ISP that *is*. OS-agnosticism is the future as non-Windows OS's slowly increase their market share.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

Almost everyone it's compelled to double click on a document icon, then she would have realised that the document was opened by OOo...

Re:Exactly

[bill_kress]

>I presume you can set that stuff up over the phone if you have a Mac or something, but that's probably non-obvious for someone who accidentally orders a Linux laptop.

So it's obvious if you buy a mac but unobvious if you order Linux?

It was pretty obvious for me, I called and said I didn't want their crap software on my PC and they politely and efficiently walked me through the manual procedure (mostly it involves validating an email address with them). Sounded like they did it all the time.

Regardless, the fact that she's running Linux saved them from installing Verizon's crapware so she's already way ahead of where she'd be if she'd gotten windows.

Re:Exactly

[coolsnowmen]

I get what you are saying about office. I recommend everyone keep around a copy of Office 2000 if they have it because it is the only one that has almost no problems with wine/codeweavers.

One word. Flash. This is not a settled issue on any Linux system to this day. Sure it can work, but not on every system.

I'm not sure what crazy websites you NEED to goto, but I can't remember the last time on a 32bit linux computer that I have not been able to use flash on a place a big as youtube.

Additionally, if I goto a university or government website that requires flash (or god forbid activeX) I write them an email explaining how it is nonstandard etc. I don't know if it does any good, but some people just don't realize that it is a badthing. Now, if a website has anyway to not use the flash, then I don't complain.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

She doesn't know that OpenOffice.org can handle her needs for "Microsoft Word" just fine

FYI, When I took classes at the local college, I did stuff on Linux at home, took my stuff to school, Windows wouldn't open OpenOffice documents.

I saved them as WORD documents.

  As for her being a M$ Plant, I thought just the opposite. If she can't do her homework on Linux, it will make the school change so Linux can be used (by her).
  AS.

Re:Exactly

[DrWatson333]

You certainly can activate your DSL over the phone, I know because the installer crashed half the time in Windows, and I had to call Verizon to activate. (I've done 100's of DSL installs)

Re:Exactly

[jc42]

... I wouldn't be surprised if they told her to go to 192.168.0.1 on Firefox in order to get her internet connection configured.

My ears perked up at that, so I decided to try it. I have an Ubuntu (heron) box handy, where I fired up FF, typed in 192.168.0.1, hit Return ... and it told me "Though the site seems valid, the browser was unable to establish a connection." Hmmm ... Next, I opened a terminal window, typed in "ping 192.168.0.1", and got the results:

$ ping 192.168.0.1
PING 192.168.0.1 (192.168.0.1) 56(84) bytes of data.
From 192.168.1.17: icmp_seq=2 Redirect Host(New nexthop: 192.168.0.1)
From 192.168.1.17: icmp_seq=3 Redirect Host(New nexthop: 192.168.0.1)
From 192.168.1.17 icmp_seq=1 Destination Host Unreachable
From 192.168.1.17 icmp_seq=2 Destination Host Unreachable
From 192.168.1.17 icmp_seq=3 Destination Host Unreachable ...

So it looks like telling her to go to 192.168.0.1 on Firefox could be rather bad advice here. As a longtime unix user, with a couple decades of internet software development, I have no idea why this is supposed to do anything useful in general. Yes, I can see how I might install a machine with address 192.168.0.1, install a web server on it, and install software in htdocs that handles network configuration. That's easy. But I didn't expect anything like that was set up on this LAN, and sure enough, it isn't. I'm not sure what's going on with all those redirections, because the gateway machine at 192.168.0.17 (don't ask ;-) shouldn't to my knowledge do that. But it definitely doesn't get you any net config tool.

But "Go to 192.168.0.1 on Firefox" is clearly not a viable approach on this Ubuntu machine. Are there large numbers of LANs (or out-of-the-box Ubuntu systems) where this would actually do something that a novice would find useful?

(Oh, and "Ask your network admin" isn't useful here. My answer would be "Hey, that's me!" Followed by "I have no idea." ;-)

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahem. Google. Hello?

Re:Exactly

[damium]

I sent a wire 3 week ago using firefox (on windows).

On a related note, I still have not received my 100 thousand US dollars for facilitating getting the prime minister of finance in Nigeria's scheme to get money out of his country. (j/k)

Re:Exactly

[thebrett]

Well, I once took a class that was IE only. It was the dumbest thing I'd seen in my whole life, but hey that's college. You can expect 60 percent of things to be done well and 40 to have been bureaucratically broken.

Re:Exactly

[sanguisdex]

I have up verizon with out the windows or wine. all one has to do is call and tell them you don't have windows and request that they set up your account for you. sure there is a person out there who knows your account password, but get them to spoof your home phone number.

Re:Exactly

[gsmalleus]

You've obviously never used Verizon DSL. Their system requires a login/password which is generated via their Windows-only software when you're setting things up. Once you have that you no longer need Windows to connect to the internet, but you do need to that once to get the system & modem set up.

I did an Ubuntu install on a neighbor's computer a couple years back with Verizon DSL. Although it required calling tech support to get some manual settings, the thing was easy to setup without using the Windows-only CD.

Also FTFA:

Verizon says it will dispatch a technician to try to assist her accessing the internet without using the Windows-only installation disk. Verizon says its high-speed internet does indeed support Ubuntu, but some advanced features and installation disks clearly don't work with Linux.

So did this woman ever even call Verizon to get tech support before calling the news? Even calling some tech-savy high school student would have solved her problems a lot easier.

Re:Exactly

[BlackSnake112]

It is called a phone, use it to call Verizon. Explain to the person on the phone. When you start getting their canned response ask for their manager (repeat the ask for your manager a few more times). Then they will set your account and password up for you.

No installation of software needed. (done this at least 10 times in the last year)

Re:Exactly

[Zebano]

It might be my FF settings, but espn.com is basically a IE only site.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF Are you smoking? I have ordered Verizon DSL 4 Times since 1998 (once when it was GTE) And have never had to have Damn "Windows-Only Software" to setup my account or get online.

They have always sent me my initial login (usually something like resxxxxxx user/passws) in the mail along with a CD (which i never used)

Connect modem, wait for lights, connect to Ethernet and it is working (no login required to get online) then just go to the site with the login and setup your alias and mail accounts.

So again what are you on?

FYI using a mixture of Ubuntu/Suse/Ipcop Linux and Windows 98/NT4/2000/XP machines and none require software or a login.

Re:Exactly

[ishobo]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? You have a computer in front of you and just got a DSL installed, how do you connect to their service without a login and password? Works the same for FiOS without alternate Internet access.

Re:Exactly

[proidiot]

Verizon DSL, like most ISPs with RADIUS or some equivalent, give you Windows software that is essentially a front-end to the web interface, so that they don't have to tell you to type in a scary-looking number like 192.168.1.1. Here are instructions specific to Verizon DSL: http://www.bensdrivel.com/?p=142.

Whether or not a particular website will work in Firefox as well as it works in IE, however, as an issue between you, the site owner, and their apparently incompetent web developer.

Re:Exactly

[revjtanton]

The article doesn't suggest the type of Verizon service she got, so the "Verizon High Speed Internet CD" may not be the issue.

I've got FiOS and was using Ubuntu for a while. When the FiOS is rigged up to your home there are a lot of configurations that need to take place. If you get the FiOS TV and Internet, your TV's OnDemand features come via the router so there are certain things that need to be done to configure that by the technician installing the service. They carry a Auto-install-and-go USB stick so that they don't actually need to know the config needed. This is a Windows-only app and the tech will refuse to finish installing without it (as per your service contract).

I used a virtualized XP build I had on my Ubuntu box to get past this, and then reconfigured the router myself afterward...but I doubt this young lady knew how to virtualize any OS, let alone reconfigure her router afterward.

The real issue here is that there is a language barrier between casual PC users and their new Ubuntu goodness. Someone (maybe me?) should get something together for the user friendly Linux builds to act as a tutorial for the Windows to Linux cross-over. Something that is more than a tutorial, but a bridge. Something that links applications and actions. You type in Word it outputs Writer and a path to use OOo. I duuno...any ideas?

Re:Exactly

[tkw954]

But time and again I have encountered heavily customised word documents with tick boxes, mixed colum formatting, etc, etc, which Openoffice simply cannot display with fidelity. And by fidelity, I mean make sure the danm funding form fits on one page and not bleed it over onto the second.

This is true, but there are also times when the layout changes when you open a document with a different version of MS Word. Openoffice may not be fully compatible with Word, but neither is Word.

Re:Exactly

[johnmat]

It is easy without Windows - I just went through this with a Verizon DSL install. When I called and told them I was installing from a Mac, they talked me through logging directly into the modem from Safari, and setting it up through its web interface. No Windows required! (so is that the chicken, or the egg?)

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

I second this information. I am a Verizon DSL customer and have been for almost 3 years now. When I first signed up, I chucked the CD as soon as it got here, and setup everything manually, no problems.

When I replaced my DSL router, I just told the new router to use the old router's MAC address, no problems.

When I setup a new DSL router for someone else a couple weeks ago, I couldn't figure out WHY I couldn't get on, everything was hooked up right. So I RTFM and found out that the CD now activates the modem for the customer. Years ago when I ordered my DSL the modem was sent pre-activated.

Naturally my first instinct was to question how smart that decision was, you know, leaving out all those OSX and Linux users in the world... when I realized I was one of them, and that even though I love my Linux to death, I still have a windows machine around anyway.

There will undoubtedly be some who are left out cold like this woman was, so it would surprise me if there isn't a work-around through customer service.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

Make computers even harder to use, no seriously it used to be that it was a trick to get on the net because of the complexity of the software and hardware involved. Now that any moron can buy a computer and hook it up to the internet we get stories like these.

Re:Exactly

[msclrhd]

Don't forget (if you are running Linux) that the websites persuaded by Microsoft to use Silverlight on their web pages (Olympics 2008 I'm looking at you). At least with Flash, there is a Linux and Mac version.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

With all due respect, I have set up Verizon DSL for about 60 - 70 families in my area (tech support for rural western New England) I would honestly say that 80% of all installs had to be completed on the phone with Verizon because the Verizon DSL install disk failed for windows (98,xp, vista), that is why I would be called in. The average person has no idea when there is an actual bug/glitch in the setup or if they are truly doing something wrong. Most just give up and call for tech support.
Hand someone a Linux install, and a CD to run on windows and watch the ensuing chaos.
Of course the poor thing would "blame" Ubuntu for keeping her offline.
You can't blame her for her lack of understanding,just like she can't blame Ubuntu.
(B.T.W. FTA : Ubuntu is an OS that runs on Linux ????) -great fact checker this journalist. -there's the problem right there. stop the presses.

Don't even get me started on trying to convince the clueless to move from something they totally don't grasp to something they never heard of and will also not be able to grasp... forget it.
Unfortunately, I can't educate the masses, and at this point I no longer care to try.
I keep in business by keeping their windows clean.
Cheers.

Re:Exactly

[iceperson]

Most the people I know use webmail. My school's webmail is OWA and I've yet to get another browser to work with it. I am able to use the online classroom and student information system using Opera, but only by telling it to identify as IE (not something I'd expect the average user to even know was possible) and I still have to use IE to upload homework because neither firefox or opera work.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

You are exactly right. I used to be a verizon DSL customer as well.

The DSL router they gave me refused to work (the web based admin gui wasn't accessible at all) until I used their stupid flash based installer CD on a windows box.

Once I did that. I could access the web based admin gui and reconfigure to my hearts content.

There was no manual install option it was "pop this CD into a windows box and run" or nothing. Which sucked because the first CD they sent me was defective. :P

Re:Exactly

[number11]

There are a lot on IE only web sites in the on-line education industry.

Maybe they could give their web designers a chit for a free course in web design.

Re:Exactly

[thetoadwarrior]

Yeah the problem is the average user is too stupid to actually see what they're buying for $1,100. Dell in no way hides which operating system is on the computer and I've just gone to Dell's site and it's hard not to buy a computer with Windows on it (probably because they know most people want it) so I'm not sure how she ended up it but I know if I was spending $1,100 for a laptop and something that was important, as it was for online classes, then I'd make sure it was what I want.

But yeah you're right Ubuntu probably isn't ready for the completely retarded but then again these people shouldn't really be on the internet anyway. They're the reason there are so many compromised computers on the internet.

Re:Exactly

[azander]

You haven't setup a new DSL connection in the last few years have you? You MUST install their Windows(TM) only, machine fucking, bloatware bullshit to run the absurdly stupid IE only ActiveX control to do a single HTTP POST to create a username and password. Even Bellsouth's COMMERCIAL business users have to go through this complete fucking bullshit. I had nothing nice to say to the Live Chat Customer Support minion when this was forced down my throat. Based on my experience, be ready to completely wipe and reinstall the machine used for this crap. As a side note, Norton AV will not let you install their crap.

You must? Interesting. I work for a DSL provider. I use linux to set up the modems we sent out. I have yet to NEED windows to configure any deal for a Verizon or AT&T area. I checked into the requirements for QWest as well. There is nothing stopping someone from setting up any of these without their CD. The CD is only a 'easy way' for a novice to do the with without having to learn anything.

I have a co-location in our data center that is used by a small private university as well. It is running software for online classes. They have no problems with their students using any 'modern' OS, like Linux, Mac OSX, or Windows XP or newer. As long as you have the newer more capable web browsers, and are willign to ask a few questions it isn't a problem.

Re:Exactly

[number11]

I'm sure verizon could have helped TONS if she would have called a helpdesk/support line instead of a lawyer.

I can't tell for sure if my sarcasm detector is working properly, but I did tap the meter and it didn't change. You haven't dealt with first-line helpdesk support at a major corporation, have you?

I've got to admit that when I first set up DSL with Qwest, calls went to engineer-types who actually knew what they were talking about. After a 2-hour wait on hold, listening to an endless loop of "Take a Chance on Love", to winnow out the callers who weren't serious. But that was a long time ago. They replaced those guys with workers whose primary qualification was they could turn the page in a binder, and it went downhill from there.

Re:Exactly

[corrie]

I agree with you that those are real, existing issues.

However, from a legal standpoint, they mean nothing.

Another real issue is that she is ignorant. People are ignorant when they are "uneducated or lacking in knowledge".

From a customer service point of view, I think Dell did a really terrible job in educating one of it's customers.

I guess it's a catch-22 problem with first line support personnel:

The first line of support are all working from lists of questions, and going about things the "flowchart way". They lack the motivation and enthusiasm to actually help a customer.

A knowledgeable, helpful person is not working in the first line support, they are working in third line or top line.

Of course, my two cents on this particular customer is that she did not really apply any due dilligence on her part:
1. She did not research what she could/should buy
2. She did not research what to do with what she bought
3. Other things might happened that caused her to drop out of the courses. I doubt the article's explanation and her claim is completely true.
4. Especially because she's now playing the blame game.

Re:Exactly

[Cramer]

I didn't say anything about a CD or setting up the modem. The process of creating the username and password -- the two things you need in order to setup the modem -- *requires* going through their bullshit "web" interface -- which is nothing but an activex control that installs a bunch of unnecessary, impossible to remove, crap in the process -- that only needs to be a simple HTML form. Customer service won't do it for you -- I assume because Bellsouth/AT&T doesn't want that crap infesting their own computers -- and there's no other way around it. (apparently)

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

Silverlight is on Mac. Moonlight is on Linux. Novell has a direct line to the Silverlight team.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2007/sep07/09-04silverlightpr.mspx

What's the problem?

Re:Exactly

[Dare nMc]

They are typically, ancient Word 97 produced affairs, devised by a "self educated" whiz

well, from my experience openoffice is on equal footing with ms office on this front. IE those documents will not look the same on Word 2000, or 2003, or whichever, and likely will not print on any paper size but the one it was originated on...
At work it is fine, they install office 2003 for everyone, designer must update his document or change it to a pdf, etc.
I even found openoffice to be a good filter, IE the document is smaller in size, and more compliant once I open and save as msoffice in OO once.

Re:Exactly

[mrdoogee]

Not only that, but holy crap, if you call their customer support to troubleshoot their Pop3 email service, all the CSRs have is a book that explains how to do it on Outlook.

I called them when Thunderbird stopped fetching email and the rep said: "OK open outlook and go to "tools".

I replied "I'm not using outlook, I have Thunderbird"

She: "Oh, you need outlook to get e-mail"

I: "No I don't, just tell me what the address of your POP3 server is."

She: "No sir, I'm sorry but in my book it says outlook is required".

I: " Well, I'm using a Mac computer and there is no Outlook for Mac"

She: "OH! (very proud of "solving" my problem) Well, you need to be transferred to our Mac support dept!"
CLICK

Computer illiterate CSRs make me stabby.

Re:Exactly

[b4dc0d3r]

I had to go with SW Bell DSL, and refused to run their install CD. I called tech support and explained that, they said they understood, and if I would just go to this web page I could do it online. I went there, and it didn't do anything, because Firefox doesn't run ActiveX components very well.

I sucked it up and ran it, then listed all of the file and registry changes and asked for an explanation of why those are required simply to set up a password. I have not been able to get my point across in 6 months, but I keep trying. I keep explaining that I can't trust AT&T, and they don't understand.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

There is actually a workaround...sort of a secret web page you can access that lets you bypass the activation. I wish I had the URL handy, but I got it from Verizon tech support in the first place.

Re:Exactly

[calmofthestorm]

Last I checked you had to tell Dell about fifteeen times yes I'm sure to buy a computer without windows, and click through warning after warning. I hate Dell, but she has NO case.

Re:Exactly

[Benzido]

I think part of the problem is the boneheaded decision to call it 'OpenOffice.org'. In an attempt to make it sound all web-capable and 2.0, it makes regular users think it's a website rather than an office suite.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

You've obviously never used Verizon DSL. Their system requires a login/password which is generated via their Windows-only software when you're setting things up. Once you have that you no longer need Windows to connect to the internet, but you do need to that once to get the system & modem set up.

Actually, this isn't true. It is perfectly possible to set up Verizon without using the Windows software. The password isn't always required, and even when it is, you can simply call customer service for it, if they haven't given it to you already.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

You've obviously never used Verizon DSL. Their system requires a login/password which is generated via their Windows-only software when you're setting things up. Once you have that you no longer need Windows to connect to the internet, but you do need to that once to get the system & modem set up.

Seriously. No joke.

I presume you can set that stuff up over the phone if you have a Mac or something, but that's probably non-obvious for someone who accidentally orders a Linux laptop.

And, also, Firefox cannot necessarily handle all of her "browsing needs". It's not always Firefox's fault, but there's a reason I have IE Tab set up for a handful of sites and it's not because I'm a web developer.

I have had Verizon DSL and Linux you DO NOT need the verizon software get any cheap router and setup PPPOE

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

On the Verizon DSL CD is a text file titled "Installation Instructions.txt" that walks you through step by step for setting up the modem without their software. SBC/AT&T CDs have almost the exact same text file as well.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

Quick point here--- The software installed by that cd is simply a PPPoE client.

Ubuntu has PPPoE functionality built in and is pretty easy to configure.

She's really no different than the "standard user", but the lack of any kind of intrepid attitude is what gets me. People are so afraid of their pcs.

She's probably going to sell it on ebay for 100$ and assume thats what it's worth. ...poor kid.

Re:Exactly

[Seth Kriticos]

So if we talk about questions of law, everyone says: ask a lawyer. But if we start to talk about technology, nobody says: ask a support technician.

Not being computer inclined is no bad thing, (well, at least it does not violate human rights), but it's ok, as long as people ask someone who has a clue. Does not seem to be the case here.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a Verizon broadband user and never installed their CD's or any third party bloatware. All you have to is put the information in your DSL modem and no Verizon crapware goes on your PC. Of course since I am an IT professional and know what has become a basic skill it automatically makes me an elitist. Seriously, using a PC, setting up broadband, and investigating what you need to buy and run on a computer is akin to buying a car and changing its oil.

Re:Exactly

[JavaHead85]

flash in Linux closely resembles that of video drivers about five years ago

Um No. Not only has flash progessed in leaps and bounds on the Linux front, Linux is ahead supporting 64 bit Flash. Windows is playing catch-up here not Linux http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer10.html

Re:Exactly

[Kentokae]

wrong I am a verizon Online DSL customer and you don't need the CD at all. the CD is just to simplify the setup process. If she was any smart she should had bought a router then all she had to do was set up the router and she'll be good to go on any new computer.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

I think dropping out of classes for 2 semester is a bit extreme. She is going to the tech college in Madison, not the University of Wisconsin. If you've ever been there, you would know they have giant free access computer labs on campus. Sounds more like an excuse to her parents as to why to drop out and party.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

I have Verizon DSL. I have never used their software. It's simple PPPoE. My router handles the connection itself, even.

I believe there are ways to setup PPPoE in Ubuntu as well.

Firefox will handle virtually all websites. Unless it's an old website that was designed specifically for Internet Explorer or Netscape in 1994, Firefox should be able to handle it.

There is a rather large amount of people who just don't do simple research before purchasing a big ticket item. Just as someone might check out the specs and reliability of a certain car they'd like to purchase, people can/should do the same for a computer/operating system as well.

Re:Exactly

[Cuppa 'Joe' Black]

"They're sort of like one of those custom Access programs written by a non-programmer that slowly grow and mutate."

Hey, I've got one of those that I set up for the bookstore where I work. Over time it has grown, I admit, but mutate? I think you are being ... Holy ...! What the HELL IS THAT THING? I ... MY GOD ...!

(Fade to black as blood curdling screams fill the air.)

Re:Exactly

[howlingmadhowie]

and yet word 2003 docx files look better in ooo3.0 than in word 2007. in fact one of our customers is now moving to odf because they've just got too pissed off about having to spend so much money having their software customized to support export to various word versions which then can't be reliably shared anyway.

i don't know any browser with out of the box flash. i thought you always had to install flash. does anybody know if vista comes with flash installed on ie7?

Re:Exactly

[trashmanal]

I'm using AT&T, so you may be right about Verizon. BUT, AT&Ts documentation claimed windows and their software were required to connect. All I had to do was plug the modem in, look at the IP address under the modem, type it into a browser and then the modems software did all the configuration for me. Now, I did have to call AT&T to get my PW. I already have the Login/PW screen up on my comp and just said "uh-huh" everytime they mentioned IE. Then once they gave me my PW, login and everything worked. A lot of cable companies do the same thing. They include their software, claim it and Windows is required to connect. Most of them are even easier, though. You just plug in and usually it works whether you have Win, Mac or Linux. They'll say WinXP is required, too... and you could plug it into an old Win95 machine and it will work. I suspect with the proper drivers, win3.11 and DOS would work too. Heck, I believe there are people with Amigas and a cable modem! Would the layperson know this? Of course not. Companies should really be more Linux friendly and acknowledge that it can work too, and it usually isn't that hard. Is she stupid for not figuring Linux out? NO But she should've asked a friend for help, or even gone to ubuntuforums - oh, she couldn't do that, could she? Maybe from a public computer or something. The Dell rep should've been able to help her, too. My guess is she might have been looking at one of those rare Dells with Ubuntu available and saw the option and saw it was cheaper than Windows and went with it. People give up too easy, though. And it's a crappy reason to miss school, and it's stupid to blame that which you just don't understand. (If she needed to blame someone, it might be more applicable to blame Verizon for not supplying Linux capability/help) A clever person could've borrowed a Windoze computer to configure the modem, then plug in the Linux one, too. *LOL*

Re:Exactly

[pavon]

I haven't used Verizon, but Qwest's DSL sounds very simular. Pretty much all DSL uses PPPoE which requires you to setup the DSL modem with a username and password to authenticate with the system (unlike cable-modem where you plug it in and it just works). Qwest ships with software for Windows and Mac OS that would lookup(generate?) your username and password given an account number (phone number).

To get it setup without using the software I had to call Qwest tech support to get my username and password, and then enter them into the modem using it's webconfig interface. I wouldn't expect a normal person to be able to figure it out, but I'm sure that they could send out a tech to do the initial setup if need be as it requires no knowledge of the OS that the person is running.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually a lot of the class stuff is uhmm. Pearson Publishing or something. Esp for online homework for math classes. The retarded part about this is that, yes, all the applets required for accessing the math website are done in ActiveX, and not only that, but the old version required IE6 even once 7 was out, so you had to reinstall/downgrade to get it to work, and then was IE7 only later on (I ran into this across precalc and then my sister's algebra class) which thus knocked out everyone using a windows version below XP (which maybe there aren't that many of anymore, but broke JC students would be among them.)

Anyhow, my point is that in the education sector especially, lazy programmers and cheap beancounters are keeping stuff IE only using development practices dating back to the mid-90s. As such migrating to another OS, such as Linux may not be beyond the reach of the average user, but working around the idiosyncraties(sp?) of education software in time to pass a class may be outside of their cognitive abilities (I finally had to give up trying to get it working under wine, and use my old laptop that still had XP installed. It was not a pleasant experience, between the overheating problems it had, and the fidgetiness of the application.

Re:Exactly

[hajus]

Telus in Canada also does this. You have to do the initial setup with Windows to run their setup disk (though they did it for me on the phone since I didn't have Windows). You also have to give them your imac address as part of the login setup.

Re:Exactly

[beav007]

Many ISPs have a (Windows only) quick setup disk, which communicates with the modem/router and sets the username and password for you. Usually you can get around this by going to the IP of the modem in a browser, logging in with the default information and set it yourself.

I suspect that, as she believes that MSWord is the only way to type up documents, she wouldn't know how to do this. Rather than ask someone with a brain, she's gone all media on us.

Windows has this kind of customer as well. There's not a lot you can do about it...

Re:Exactly

[kimvette]

You can do it over the phone. The key is to get a human on the phone, and not just a human, one who doesn't follow a teleprompter. But yes, you can do it over the phone.

You can also do it with Comcast - go through the Service link on the cable modem page, call their customer support and just tell them you won't (or can't) install their software and want to activate the modem. Chances are you might not even have to call them.

Re:Exactly

[ffflala]

The essential problem here is that people feel they NEED to use MS Word or an equivalent program for absolutely everything. I have been sent emails containing nothing but an MS Word attachment in which is contained... the "letter" I was being sent. It's crazy.

One of my former bosses once was having trouble with a .pdf file. I had her show me what the problem was. She'd been trying to open it using MS Word.

She'd saved it to her desktop, of course, which had Reader. That was MS Office circa 2006, on XP, and she had been using Word since ~ Windows 95.

Re:Exactly

[JAlexoi]

Just now I am looking at such a document,. though I am having hard time in identifying how to actually mark those elements. In any case, word documents should not be used in such a manner.

Re:Exactly

[kimvette]

Toyota's web site, as one example. Until a few months ago the same was true of Mazda's web site - they used to feed the mobile version of the site and spoofing the MSIE or Firefox/Windows user agent didn't help in that case either.

There are still high-profile MSIE-centric sites out there, unfortunately.

Re:Exactly

[Cramer]

Toyota's site works perfectly for me with Opera -- if you want to call a huge flash app a web site.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhm , No you don't need any M$ or cd to set up an internet conection.

Re:Exactly

[Arterion]

I've taken online classes as recently as last year that used sites requiring ActiveX as a critical component. The software you did all the homework and quizzes in was via the book publisher's site, and it was all in ActiveX. Interestingly, though, all the videos were in Quicktime, and some stuff was in Flash. I don't remember what parts were in Flash, but it was a requirement in the "setup wizard".

I also had to install some piece of software, too. I don't recall what it was.

All in all, a horrible experience. Why in the world didn't they just do it all in Flash is beyond me. Or if they're going that far, just write a fat client that you download and run, that talks to a server. Screw the ActiveX crap.

Re:Exactly

[LWATCDR]

The real problem is that she couldn't get any help.
The school wouldn't help her, Verizon wouldn't help her, Dell probably wouldn't help her, the local rent a geek couldn't help her.
I use Linux all the time and I really like it but there is a real lack of help available for the newbe.
Every idiot on the planet knows Windows. Apple has their Genus bar, and Linux has RTFM.

Re:Exactly

[dmizer]

Does anyone have more information about this? I don't live in Verizon territory, so I don't have first-hand experience. Presumably the username/password in question is for PPPOE, but I would expect them to simply tell you what it is, then have you type that into their Windows-only config program, not the other way around.

Here is a detailed explanation of the problem: http://www.humans-enabled.com/2007/06/verizon-dsl-doesnt-support-linux.html

TFS: Some (not all) Verizon PPPoE internet setups use a DirectX script to "assist" the user with modem setup. All queries to 192.168.1.1 are redirected to the DirectX setup. If you do not have DirectX, you are given a page that says your OS is not supported. To bypass this problem, you must disable the 192.168.1.1 redirect in Firefox before you can access the modem configuration page.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

(B.T.W. FTA : Ubuntu is an OS that runs on Linux ????) -great fact checker this journalist. -there's the problem right there. stop the presses.

Well, Linux is just the kernel, right? :-)

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

She should have called verizon to activate her account over the phone rather then through the disk.

This article is such a non issue it should not be here on slashdot what-so-ever.

How is this news for nerds it is just troll food.

Don't feed the trolls.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

It's PPPoE, if she contacted her internet support they would of informed her of this and could of given her pointers on either setting up PPPoE in a router or using the PPPoE client that comes pre-installed in ubuntu.

Re:Exactly

[CodeBuster]

You can configure the modem by directly connecting it to your NIC and using the 192.168.1.1 address (the Westel modems, like most consumer network products these days, feature browser based configuration). I omitted explaining how exactly I set it up because I assumed that everyone reading Slashdot already knew such things.

Re:Exactly

[LennyP]

You obviously are unaware of the different Verizon DSL access on the two coasts. I think, on the East Coast and most of the country Verizon uses PPoE which requires a login/password. On the West Coast (at least here in Oregon) Verizon uses straight DHCP which does not require a password or login name. It's no wonder that the lay person is so confused about computers -- no matter what the O/S -- bad advice from well-meaning people. Always check your facts; what is true for you may not be true for everybody.

Re:Exactly

[trailbrain]

I'm working on a website: http://whyubuntu.com/ to help address some of these issues. If you'd like to contribute we'll be stepping up production later this month and could use the help. Shoot me an email: jacob (at) whyubuntu (dot) com I've re-discovered Linux and everything I need is there to be functional. I can't participate as a programmer, but I can help the marketing. Ya'll made a great product, we've just got to get the word out. One "commercial" in the works talks about having to pay for Windows 7... Microsoft is prepping folks to make a transition... If they're being prompted to change... Why not change to Ubuntu?

Re:Exactly

[TClevenger]

I did it the easy way: I allowed it to activate the modem, and then hit "Cancel" as soon as it started copying files from the CD. It cancels the install, while still leaving the modem/service activated.

Re:Exactly

[magarity]

Unless you're running some archaic banking software that uses ActiveX (or something like it), there's simply no reason to claim that.
 
I can't speak for the GP, but I *do* have to use a special program to access my banking which is Win32 only and it only launches from IE 6+. Yep - it won't work on Linux or even Vista 64 bit (the two options I have installed). I have to either use a VM or another computer with 32 bit XP installed to get to my banking online.

Re:Exactly

[pseudonomous]

Ok, I don't know about Verizon, but I have AT&T internet, and if you call tech support for help setting up your connection they will ONLY tell you how to set it up with the starter CD they send you, DESPITE the fact that there virtually HAS to be some way to do it. (Although this may require you buying a non 2-wire modem).

Re:Exactly

[dmizer]

Sorry, DirectX -> ActiveX

More info about the ActiveX component here: http://www.broadbandreports.com/forum/r20521695-DSL-Activation-Crapinstallation-without-user-permission

Re:Exactly

[similar_name]

I have to call you, and many, many others on this statement. Sure, OpenOffice does handle standard word documents without too much trouble.

Unfortunately I find this can hold true between different versions of Word as well.

More of an upgrade issue but an amusing story nonetheless...The corporate office where I work recently sent out an Excel spreadsheet to about 1000 employees. I opened it with OOo 3.0 with no problem, it was a simple calendar, however it seemed nobody else could open it. The problem was our corporate office had Office 2007 whereas all of the employees still had Office 2003. The guy at corporate tried emailing it 3 times before someone told him what the problem was.

While employees could use a conversion program to open it, I thought it was funny that it all boils down to whether someone knows how to use their computer and not what software they are using.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

Moreover, their software have some hardware requirements and if your comp does not fulfill them you are unable to activate account even with Windows installed.

Re:Exactly

[Dan541]

I suggest buying a decent router, any good router will allow you to access it via http making it 100% platform independent.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the problem i've had with my Father. There just used to Windows this and Windows that, you just got to get them out of that mindset... Sadly i've given up on my Father, AOL and Windows corrupted him..... Luckily I won't be like that for my kids lol

Re:Exactly

[Agent ME]

On Ubuntu, flash is in the standard repositories, just not installed by default (since it isn't free software). Install the "ubuntu-restricted-extras" package and it will automatically install a bunch of non-free software, such as flash. It's even set up by default to install it correctly with the right wrapper program on 64-bit systems.

Re:Exactly

[Dan541]

It's getting rarer these days, but there are still a**holes that code things that will only work in IE.

Fortunately there is never a need to deal with those sites.

Unless you enjoy looking at children's geocities pages.

Re:Exactly

[yrrah]

I haven't run into an IE-only website since... well, Maplestory used to be IE only...

"This Site is Best viewed using Internet Explorer 5.0" https://www.dodmets.com/pages/index.htm seriously...

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to work at verizon, there is a linux work around its been a while but they have linux work arounds for their wireless connections especially the usb 720 series.

Re:Exactly

[Cramer]

I wish that was true.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

192.168.1.1/verizon/redirect.htm

Click the "disable" button on that page.

I think the reason many people here do not have this problem is because the "problem" is actually built in to the firmware of some of the home dsl modems that verizon provides. If you get one of these modems, it will always do the redirect unless you run the windows software (which will do the same thing as clicking disable on the above page).

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

What is this "web browsing" you speak of? I wouldn't know, I've been running Debian Linux and only Debian Linux for 8 years on every computer I have owned in that time, desktops and laptops. That is why I have been completely unable to connect to that new fangled interwebs everyone is talking about, and all those papers I wrote in college were just figments of my imagination because there sure aren't any word processors available for Linux. Gee wizz, it sure must be nice to have Windows for all your computing needs.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

As a doctoral learner, one thing that Word does better than any open source software is grammar. Since I do some teaching too, I tend to find the 'tech savvy' out of my students. Bad grammar is a subtle hint. Yes, I know that abiword had grammar checker and there are other grammar checking tools, they just are useless.

Re:Exactly

[supernova_hq]

While IE Tab may work for you, it would be useless in this context. She is using a laptop with Ubuntu, thus now Windows, thus no IE, thus IE Tab will not run. She would need a VM to run windows in or IEs4Linux (which if she did not own another machine with Windows would technically be illegal).

Re:Exactly

[beav007]

You still need Windows to run it though, and therein lies the issue.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

I supported Verizon DSL for over three years. No CD is required, though at the time when I provided support for it if the CD was used that would walk a user through the initial setup.

All you really needed was the username / password for PPPoE (if you were PPPoE, not all customers were) and if you had that information and knew how to configure the modem / router, you would not need a CD.

Re:Exactly

[LMariachi]

The Mac crowd also doesn't answer this charge, either, so apparently Macs can't print UTF-8 text, either.

They were probably just ignoring you because you hadn't even tried to print a UTF-8 encoded document. If you had, you'd have found It Just Works.

I'd be happy to be proved an idiot here ...

Glad to be of service.

Re:Exactly

[Dan541]

What site can't Firefox display?

Apart from myspace profiles, but those are in a special league of bad coding.

Re:Exactly

[rusl]

People have stupid problems with all computers. The PRESS ANY KEY issue isn't OS specific.

Realistically, this woman is using Ubuntu as a Scapegoat. As much as we would all like to have had it work for her it didn't. It's the past. The practical lesson is about lobbying against Windows ONLY features for such things as Verizon.

And Ubuntu is already in the consumer market. If you know how to fix it - then do. I know that is an easy answer but it's true and that is how things get done.

Re:Exactly

[tkrotchko]

"but espn.com is basically a IE only site."

I've been using firefox on espn.com for many years and I'm a subscriber. What's so IE about it/what doesn't work in FF? Even ESPN360 works in Firefox.

Re:Exactly

[Dr Dodgy]

The essential problem here is that people feel they NEED to use MS Word or an equivalent program for absolutely everything. I have been sent emails containing nothing but an MS Word attachment in which is contained... the "letter" I was being sent. It's crazy.

Oh, it gets much worse than that.

I work desktop support for a large University and regularly receive documents from users either explaining problems or to convert for them. The most common is an email containing nothing but a PowerPoint slide show containing a text only explanation of their problems!!
Now, I wouldn't mind so much if they used nice transitions and effects, but it's always just plain text on whatever template they used last time. These are people who are meant to be educating our next generations, and the worst culprit is someone who is regarded as a bit of an IT guru by his peers.

The real problem is, these people find one program that they can make text show up in, and just use that for everything

Re:Exactly

[howlingfrog]

-1 Misinformative.

Sites that work better in IE than Firefox are certainly a minority, and sites that don't work at all in Firefox are rare, but they do exist. I can think of two examples that I've experienced in the last week:

1. My girlfriend is a college student who takes most of her classes online. She was taking a quiz a few days ago and trying to answer the first question crashed Firefox, every time she tried. Only IE works. The school is Columbus State Community College, FYI.
2. My employer contracts with a company called Workbrain for "workforce management"--employee scheduling, timeclock, payroll, etc. It's all web-based, so we can check our schedules, see pay stubs, request time off, etc. online. Almost all of the website works fine in any browser. But the part of the site that allows us to view the full schedule for all employees or the staff phone list, among other things, simply does not display in Firefox.

Neither of those problems is solvable by falsifying user agent. They are genuine incompatibilities. No, there's no reason, not even ease of development, that the sites should have been designed that way. It would have been easier, not just more functional, to implement both sites in plain-vanilla HTML--neither does anything fancy. But how they should have been done is irrelevant. They were both actually done in a way that only works in IE, and they're both completely modern sites that are completely unavoidable parts of our day-to-day lives.

Re:Exactly

[Kashgarinn]

I agree with this sentiment.

Linux right now is for the mildly tech-savvy computer user (before it was for the tech-savvy computer professional).

I look forward to the non-tech users trying to use it, hopefully they can point out what problems are with it, and hopefully the people who can help with fixing that will listen.

2 things which will be obstacles, the arrogance of the people who actually are capable of solving the mundane problems of the non-tech users, and how the solutions will be implemented.

for instance.. for that girl to solve her problems, she would have had to 1) get information from the internet company how to set up her internet connection via linux and when (if?) that was solved 2) know how to search for stuff in google.

I'm guessing that the best way forward would be to have a desktop background saying "in trouble? Search Google.com for an answer. Can't get on the internet? Ask your Internet service provider for assistance". I think that should cover most of the linux problems.

I can just imagine what the desktop background would have been for the tech-pro.. "Are you MAN enough?"

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

does ie tab work under linux or do you need ie4linux

Re:Exactly

[hesiod]

I have used Dell's support site in FireFox for years and have never had any problems.

Re:Exactly

[hesiod]

Even calling some tech-savy high school student would have solved her problems a lot easier.

Calling a five-year-old would have helped... and effectively quadrupled the IQ involved at the same time.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, you can log into the router via the web interface and add your Verizon username and password. That's probably the only useful purpose the CD serves.

Re:Exactly

[hesiod]

If she was any smart she should had bought a router

Wow. If she no know buy any router, why she had buy a one? In English, how is she supposed to know that buying a router would help? People outside of IT don't generally know what a router is, let alone why it might help them do anything.

Re:Exactly

[Mountain Splash]

You've obviously never used Verizon DSL. Their system requires a login/password which is generated via their Windows-only software when you're setting things up.

Hm. First gut reaction is that her beef should be with Verizon DSL for not providing multiple alternatives of passage into their system, thus making it *accessible* to her *CHOICE* of hardware/software..

It's not Ubuntu's fault that Verizon, a purported technologically knowledgeable corporation, is being proprietary to a pay-fer OS, thus segregating out that portion of the population who chooses for whatever personal reasons, including financial, to go open source, et al..

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

"You've obviously never used Verizon DSL... "

You obviously do not know much about internet solutions. I use Verizon DSL. The software is not required. The helpdesk will try to make it seem as if it is b/c that is the easiest way to get you off the phone but if you are adamant they can provide you the login information w/o the software. I'm one of those who is adamant that an internet connection should never ever require additional software to connect so when I connected mine I called immediately and refused to take no for an answer. It took a 45 minute call to get it through and I ultimately had to talk to a tech lead as the front-line help-desk tech didn't know the settings to use without allowing the software to install.

As to firefox not meeting her needs. I have been using firefox for online courses for a year now w/o issue, and they have IE for Linux now so if you run into that >1% that requires it it is possible.

Ultimately the issue is not that Linux can not meet her needs but that she failed to research what she was doing prior to making her purchase. In today's "Let the buyer beware market." that is a very foolish thing to do. Filing a lawsuit because she failed to do her homework before she bought the system is just ridiculous thus the mockery. If her lawyer had any sense he'd have taken her aside and quietly explained this to her before this got this far.

Re:Exactly

[shiftless]

Huh? I just sent a wire through western union a few days ago using Firefox.

Seriously, where are all you guys finding these websites that don't work in Firefox? It has been ages since I encountered one. They are pretty rare. Maybe you should be lobbying for these webmasters to fix their shit instead of resigning yourself to not being able to use Firefox.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

I have worked for Verizon DSL as a front-line technical support agent (in Canada), and you DO NOT need to use that bloody disk.

We actually discourage the use of that disk simply because all it does is *try* to get you through the setup process (in which 9 out of 10 distributed copies fail), generate you a password (tech. support agents can do that for you as well) and configure your modem (this is usually where the easy-installer fails).

I realize it might not seem like an, "Oh shit, I forgot about that!" piece of information, but this is meant for the general, American, Verizon-subscribing populace. If you have an English-speaking, non-Eastern accented TSA (this isn't racism in the slightest, it is a experienced fact that Asian TSAs read strictly from scripts with little imagination), tell them your disk was damaged and you would like to be walked through the modem configuration process.

The setup process is wonderfully OS agnostic; it just requires you to have a web browser with which to access your modem.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

You do not need the disk you just need to know how to set up the connection and use the login and PW

Re:Exactly

[mea37]

"People have stupid problems with all computers"

That's pretty much the point. Focusing on making Linux impervious to user error is the wrong approach; no OS or UI is or ever will be. The question isn't whether the user will have problems; the question is how the support community responds when the user has problems. (If you're a linux advocate and you don't think you're part of the support community, then you aren't a very good advocate.)

The support community includes the software company that backs the OS, the computer manufacturer or retailer (assuming the user bought a ready-built system), the ISP, maybe the user's social network, and maybe (depending on the user's comfort on the internet) forums and discussion boards. Like how they do it or not, MicroSoft shores up that network for Windows. Look for the same support on Linux, and you're liable to get someone who'd rather talk about what a lUser you are and how many reasons there are that you shouldn't have the problem, than help fix it.

However, you've also picked an interesting example... "The PRESS ANY KEY issue isn't OS specific"

And yet have you noticed how much more rare that prompt is today in dominant desktop OS's, than it was in the days when there was a real "computer literacy" gap? Do you remember that back when DOS used that prompt, were the days when the Mac was the non-technical user's computer of choice?

Re:Exactly

[mea37]

As far as I'm concerned, that is completely beside the point. How badly she handled the situation, or even what ulterior motives she might have had not to try very hard, do not change the fact that she is a common user who could not get her LInux system to do what she wanted it to do.

MicroSoft understands that being "right" is only part of the equation, which is why they have a marketing department and tend to refrain from overtly insulting potential customers. (In public or to their face, at least.)

Re:Exactly

[Sandbags]

OK, this can be simply bypassed by using a $20 router as it can on many other DSL accounts. Verizon support can (and will) assist her with setting that up. They did so for many of my family members who own Macs and no PCs.

Re:Exactly

[Sandbags]

As for the IE requirement, it depends on her online school. My wife took a few classes from a local (major) university online. They not only required IE6 (not 7) but they also required nearly every security protocol in IE to be set to low or turned off entirely. I had a long a serious fight with their IT department and administrators of the online class program. In the end, I built a VM machine to handle the class and had the school provide me a copy of XP at no charge so I could legally do so. I snadboxed that machine down so tight it wasn't funny.

FireFox, Opera, Safari, none of them worked with the online class assignment tracking system. Anyone modifying their home PCs to use such low security standards would have had viruses in minutes. Their own system was continually down for service as I imaging it was being repeatedly infected by all the infected machines that were using it.

Sometimes firefox is not an option. Still no reason she can't run windows in a VM to satisfy her class requirements though. It;s also not Dell's fault she did not check the school's requirements before buying the machine, nor their fault she did not return it within the 14 window provided for a refund/replacement.

Re:Exactly

[Sandbags]

I am still relegated to using IE for some custom sites created by my employer (they're transitioning to new versions, but are not complete yet, it's hundreds of sites tying back to mainframe systems, oracle databases, CBT, calendaring, and more). My wife uses IE (in a tightly hardened vurtual machine) to access her online college assignment and blackboard system. It's not Activex, but the code simply will not run in other browsers. Specifically, she has to use IE 6 with security set to low and even then sereral protections further tunred off.

The web itself, yea, I can go everywhere without IE. proprietary software interfaces to specific systems, especially those that have been online for 4+ years, IE is usually the only option. So much was possible from a code standpoint that many years ago in IE that was either not compatible with Firefox/mozilla/netscape (or was simply too much additional effort for so small a user base), that it all got written for IE.

There's a reason we still have a lot of CoBOL code in this world, the cost to rewrite in another language is simply too high for the results. Requiring IE costs nothing...

I don;t like it, but I have to accept it (for now).

Re:Exactly

[Sandbags]

There is! Inside the modem itself, and Verizon support will connect you to that web page on request if you can't run their little Wizard. This is a throwback to when they charged extra for "home network setup" or when they billed $5 extra per additional PC set up. It's not required anymore, and the modem can make this configuration, but providing a wizard setup disk is easier than instructions to set your IP and use a web browser to connect to a device to configure this all manually.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, there are still some MSIE-centric sites out there. But the number is declining, thanks mostly to Microsoft's incompatibilities with itself across version of IE.

The peak of MSIE quirks was centered around supporting IE6. Along comes IE7 and compatibility issues emerge. Believe me, I have IE7 and it's a problem. I expect the compatibility situation to deteriorate even further with IE8.

I find it absolutely amazing that web designers didn't see this coming. Maybe they thought the ongoing problem of IE compatibility would be come a "holy grail" of billable hours. I suppose for some it has.

How ironic that Microsoft is dragging ITSELF into the world of standards compliance.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

But "Go to 192.168.0.1 on Firefox" is clearly not a viable approach on this Ubuntu machine. Are there large numbers of LANs (or out-of-the-box Ubuntu systems) where this would actually do something that a novice would find useful?

The address of the router (presumably supplied by Verizon) is usually 192.168.0.1 or 192.168.1.1, so yes, it would do something a novice would find useful, it would allow them to configure the DSL connection.

Re:Exactly

[joggle]

Well other than not being able to run the Windows CD this has nothing to do with Ubuntu and everything to do with the router. Any off the shelf router has a default local network address a user can navigate to using Firefox. So long as she told the guy on the phone what she was using he could quickly look up the information and tell her what this address is (it's probably in the documentation that came with it, but she can hardly be expected to read documentation right?).

In my experience 192.168.0.1 is often the default address for Netgear routers. Not sure what the default is for others but I'm sure I could find it quickly either in documentation that comes with the product or on the net.

Re:Exactly

[prozaker]

some users do require pppoe and some are just dhcp, I don't remember quite well because I worked for verizon dsl like 3 years ago, but pppoe was in decline because users wouldnt bother with it.

HOWEVER

users that had to configure a pppoe connection on their computers, instead on the modem/router that they get from verizon, were like 2% or less of the calls in a year for me.

you can access the modem/router from any kind of browser as far as I could remember.

back then we didn't have or offered linux support, some of the level 3 guys did have some linux experience, other than that, if you had linux, and didn't have experience with it, or experience with configuring the router through the browser, you were SOL.

Re:Exactly

[Cramer]

The bellsouth/at&t version of the westel won't let you past the "enter username and password" screen until you fill it in and let it login at least once. In my case, I have a 6+ year old "A" model (2100?) westel. It barely has a web interface at all, so you can do anything to it without it even being connected. The 6100, while much better hardware, has some of the lamest web crap on it I've ever seen. Maybe I should find a verizon model and see if they did any better.

Back in the days before AT&T fucked everything up, if you failed authentication 5 times (maybe it was 3) the system would link you to a "recovery network" where you could create or reset your account details -- no matter what web page you headed to, that's the page you got. If that wasn't good enough, you can *gosh* pick up the phone and talk to an actual, native english speaking, HUMAN to get your password sorted out.

Re:Exactly

[Cramer]

The expandable tree they use has always been hit-n-miss with Opera. It needs FAR too much memory, and opera's javascript engine (rightly) limits the amount of memory a script can waste. Even in FF, it's a heavy CPU eater.

Re:Exactly

[sajaki9]

OS X is a Unicode operating system. So yes of course it can print UTF-8. http://db.tidbits.com/article/6780

Re:Exactly

[rohan972]

Computer illiterate CSRs make me stabby.

I worked for a small ISP once. The training we got from our wholesale provider was that:

(1) Unlimited is not unlimited. With the top bandwidth users find a way to slow them down or get rid of them. It was fraud in my opinion, but the way they went about it they were unlikely to get charged.

(2) The customer service you provide is the setup disk. If the setup disk didn't work for them let them go to another provider.

They didn't like having technically competent people as CSRs. They spend too much time helping people, it costs money. They didn't like us because we were a repair shop as well.

Re:Exactly

[erwanl]

Flash works great on Linux. And it works out-of-the-box on a lot of Linux distributions (like Mandriva). Of course, because Ubuntu wants to be "pure" about open source or whatever BS, they won't include flash by default. But that's a deliberate choice they do, not some technical limitation or anything to be blamed on Adobe.

Re:Exactly

[jc42]

They were probably just ignoring you because you hadn't even tried to print a UTF-8 encoded document. If you had, you'd have found It Just Works.

Wrong. I've tried on several Macs, with several printers. In every case, when I've tried to print UTF-8 text (usually Chinese), it comes out as the usual "mojibake" Latin1 gibberish. This is using methods like CMD-P or the File..Print menu items with various windows that display the non-ASCII chars (e.g. Chinese characters) just fine. Every once in a while, there have been a few non-ASCII chars that print correctly, but usually all of them come out on paper as gibberish, even when they look good on the screen.

I've asked in various online forums, and the only replies I've gotten are either like yours, insulting me by telling me that it works without giving any clues as to how to make it work, or telling me that it misbehaves the same way on their Mac and if I figure out how to make it Just Work, I should tell them, too.

Earlier today, I accidentally typed CMD-P on this Mac in a Terminal window displaying a message that I wanted a hard copy of. Then, as it printed, I said "Duh!" as I realized my mistake. Half the message was in Hebrew, and I knew how it would come out. Sure enough, the Hebrew part was Latin1 gibberish, not Hebrew.

This is a very bizarre sense of "Just Works".

Re:Exactly

[jc42]

I clicked on that link, read through it, but didn't see anything about printing. So I hit CMD-F, typed in the search string "print", and there was one such string - the little print icon at the top of the article to print the page. There was no instance of "print" in the article. I tried a few of the links toward the bottom, but none of them seems to have any mention of printing from OS X, either.

So where is there actual documentation on how one makes a Mac print UTF-8 text correctly? Just saying that OS X handles Unicode doesn't answer this. Yes, I've seen it correctly generate non-ASCII file names. I have several directories that contain files with Chinese names (traditional chars, simplified chars, and pinyin with tone marks). But I've never got a correct printout of these directories' contents.

One bit of weirdness: the ls command prints Chinese, Hebrew and Russian filenames as "???????.txt", etc. However, if I type ls|cat, the names come out in Chinese, Hebrew and Russian. This proves that the Terminal window can correctly display those characters. But ls for some reason garbages them.

This might be explained by the "legacy" nature of the ls command (though the problem could probably be fixed by just commenting out a few lines of code in ls.c). But it doesn't explain why I keep seeing non-ASCII text turned to Latin1 gibberish all over the place. And so far, it has always happened with everything I've tried to print, on several different Macs, and with several different printers, including printers bought from an Apple store.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

I can confirm this on the Linux side as well. I had Verizon DSL service and was able to set it up and use it by going through customer service, and without the assistance of any Windows box. The same holds for AT&T DSL.

Re:Exactly

[LMariachi]

Sorry I insulted you. I've admined thousands of Macs and I've never seen the problem you're describing. Do the Unicode characters show up correctly when you print to PDF?

Re:Exactly

[jc42]

Do the Unicode characters show up correctly when you print to PDF?

I don't know how to determine that.

I can say that when I send the PDF files to a printer, the non-ASCII chars come out as Latin1 gibberish. But this doesn't mean that they're wrong inside the PDF. Since PDF files are (usually) compressed, I can't examine the representation of the characters by any method that I know to determine whether they're PDF or not.

However, I have tested this for PS (PostScript) files. A number of tools that I have produce PS, and I get PDF by running /usr/bin/pstopdf. PS files are plain text, so I can edit them. I've used both the Edit program and vi inside a Terminal to examine PS files produced from UTF-8 text, and the non-ASCII characters (Chinese, Russian, Hebrew, Arabic, whatever) all show up on the screen correctly. With vi, I can cut out a line of text from the PS file that contains non-ASCII chars, feed them to any of several hexdump programs, and verify that they are encoded in UTF-8. But when I feed the PS files to Preview or lpr, those lines come out on the screen or paper as Latin1 gibberish.

So it's the rendering code in Preview or whatever lpr calls (or whatever is invoked by CMD-P or the File..Print menu items) that is turning UTF-8 text into Latin1 gibberish.

I'd guess that pstopdf also puts UTF-8 chars into its PDF output, but I know no way to test this. Is there a tool that will uncompress a PDF file, extract a line and output it unchanged, so I can feed it to a hexdump program? I don't know of anything that can do this, so I can't say anything about what's inside a PDF file. All I can say is that apparently only Latin1 encodings work with tools like Preview or lpr on the Macs that I can use for testing.

I'm willing to believe that I've screwed up something in the configuration of all these Macs. But I wouldn't know how to do it if I wanted to, and I have no idea what I might have done wrong. And it's curious that this happens on all of them, including a relatively new iMac (belonging to my wife) on which I've done very little work of any sort. Mostly I've just looked over her shoulder as she does things, and occasionally make suggestions to fix problems.

A funny thing on her Mac is that she has a virtual Windows XP installed (which lives on a VPN connection to her office network). From inside XP, she can print Arabic texts and they mostly come out fine on paper. I checked, and the ones I examined were UTF-8. But when she copies them to the OS X system and tries to display or print them, the Arabic often comes out as gibberish. Sometimes it's Latin1 gibberish; sometimes it is Arabic characters drawn left-to-right. Sometimes the order is correct, but they're all the "isolated" variants, which is hardly readable. How the Arabic is messed up seems to depend on the app, though, so we're assuming that different Mac apps use different routines to render Arabic, and some of the library routines are better than others.

Chinese is different, though. It usually displays fine on her new iMac, but it comes out as Latin1 gibberish on paper. This is using the same printer on the same machine where the XP system usually prints Arabic and Chinese correctly. It's sorta embarrasing for those of us who like Macs better than Microsoft junk. ;-)

(Mostly, she totally loves her new iMac. )

Re:Exactly

[ishobo]

Yes, but for the average non-technical user (folks that see the computer as an appliance) I think there would be a problem. When I lived in another state for a client for six months, I ordered FiOS over the phone. The FiOS installer had the Windows CD in hand. I refused it because the computer was work property and had a restricted policy on third party software. Luckily, I was using a Verizon mobile card and he directed me to a website.

Re:Exactly

[ishobo]

You are assuming the person in the article would know how to configure the modem. I was addressing the problem from their perspective.

Re:Exactly

[PipsqueakOnAP133]

Disclaimer: I used to handle transport and build of localized resources at a software company using Mac and Windows.

I've never seen this behavior before on a Mac. The general rule for me was "if I can see it right on screen in TextEdit, it'll reach paper fine."

Here's what I'd do.

If you got UTF-8 text files, open up TextEdit.app and try both auto and UTF-8 selections for the data type.
Then hit cmd-P and it should be exactly what you see on screen.

An alternative editor would be BBEdit.app which is more focused as a text editor rather than a basic word processor. Useful if your file turns out to be malformed or some format that TextEdit.app doesn't understand.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[gblackwo]

There is a difference.

This woman didn't want to try to use it, she got stuck with it on accident and then failed to make use of it. A few google searches by her would have revealed at least how to use Word or Open Office. And has it been shown that she really has a verizon card?- or does she just think she needs the magic cd that came with her cable modem?

i am doing it

[He who knows]

I am doing both at the moment while using Ubuntu.

Back the fun bus the fuck up

[Anonymous Coward]

...big corporations are talking people *into* using Linux?
*fetches champagne*

Fail

[MazzThePianoman]

I have never used the discs provided by ISPs to get online. Usually they are just bloatware and if you call them up they can go through line by line what you need to set in your modem/router to get things going. It is sad that so many people think Microsoft is the only thing out there. Everyone who I have shown Firefox to has never been back to IE except for the few rare pages that require it. A little education goes a long way and hopefully this the year where Linux and other similar projects are a little more successful with their marketing.

When can my mom use Linux?

[Manip]

I've been saying this is Linux's biggest issue for years. I keep on asking when my mom can use Linux herself and keep getting fobbed off...

When will terminal windows, compiling your own software, and configuration files disappear and in place get a consistent modern UI?

Yes, Linux has been doing better in this regard but everyone seems to be going in a completely different direction with a lot of the supporters and developers scuffing at the idea of making Linux easier for the common man.

The real question is: Is Linux for developers and geeks, or is it for everyone? And that is something the Linux community needs to answer before it can move forward.

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[Ritz_Just_Ritz]

I don't know about *your* mom, but my 65-ish year old parents Adapted from Windows 2000 to CentOS 5.2 (the desktop version) + OpenOffice 3 in about a day. I just needed about 20-30 minutes of time to show them the little differences in using their new GUI.

Their first comment? "Wow, this is pretty fast. Now we don't have to spend a grand on a new computer. Thanks!" (on a fairly old 2ghz P4 box with 512mb RAM and Matrox...remember them?...video card)

There is hope.

Cheers,

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[Cajun Hell]

When will terminal windows, compiling your own software, and configuration files disappear and in place get a consistent modern UI?

The day you install Linux for her, instead of just giving her a Gentoo stage 1 tarball.

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

My mom uses ubuntu and doesn't know the difference

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[meist3r]

With people still asking that old inappropriated question it's no wonder there's not more interest. How many people that never worked a computer before did you sit in front of a Windows machine and they did everything rightaway? Correct: None! Or even more correctly: None more than with a Linux (here Ubuntu) GNOME desktop.

You don't have to compile software anymore (at least everything I normally use comes from the repositories or in pre-compiled binaries). Know how to use a .exe file? You almost know how to use a .deb file! I do compile stuff because I understand how it works but I don't HAVE to as you claim.

Configuration files disappear? What idiocy is this? So you want a huge cluttered registry system like Windows has that you have to setup all over again if you have to re-install the system? Something that will destroy your system if it get's even slightly messed up? I much prefer the "per-application / stored in your home folder" configuration because that's WAY easier to migrate from one system to another and in case I do have to reinstall the system I can get my settings running in no time. And even if one app breaks the configuration I can still solely remove that ONE SINGLE configuration file w/o compromising my entire system.

When was the last time you tried a distro like Ubuntu? You can't possibly be talking about 8.10 because that doesn't need any command line, compiling, terminal stuff to run at all. And gimme a fucking break "consistent modern UI"? What like Vista? Where half of the features won't work if your graphics card has been manufactured on a Tuesday and the interface is the very same as in Win95 only with a glossy skin? Go Fuck off. You clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. GNOME isn't uglier than Windows XP or Vista in the "classic" mode and Compiz beats the hell out of Aero any time of the day. What is that? You can't run Compiz without taking care of special hardware and software requirements? Now guess what: Same goes for anything below Ultimate and Aero. No offense but the "modern UI" argument is for pussies and Apple users. Why does Miss "Fancy Miss MacOnline-Classes /Save Money buying a computer" need an advanced UI if she doesn't even understand that something doesn't have to be called "Word" to do text processing.

Is Linux for Geeks and Devs: Sure, why not? All the development tools are free. So why not use them. Why should I buy the same tools for a Windows platform?

Is it for everyone? If you explain the system to them the first time they use it (just like you did when they started with Windows but you did that sooo often you don't even remember).

Is it for Geeks? What today actually ISN'T for Geeks? And btw. since when is that still a term anyone uses derogatorily? I thought Geeks where the guys that make all the stuff happen whereas the Jocks and Assholes just brag about their trophies and beat up Geeks to get shit done.

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[LingNoi]

Your problems aren't in anyway related to this woman who had no idea how to use computers in the first place hence why she was taking classes to learn.

She made a genuine mistake of thinking she needed Microsoft word and to use a disk from the ISP to resolve her problems.

Now that she knows she can use Open Office and that she can just plug in her internet her problems are solved and she is using Ubuntu.

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[djh101010]

I've been saying this is Linux's biggest issue for years. I keep on asking when my mom can use Linux herself and keep getting fobbed off...

My folks migrated from windows about 5 years ago. Not much retraining needed. Don't give them root, give them a user account, and set up the tools where they want them.

When will terminal windows, compiling your own software, and configuration files disappear and in place get a consistent modern UI?

Terminal windows? Yes, you can use them, I choose to, you apparently never run "cmd" on a windows box? Some things are faster command line and scripted, some are better with a GUI. Whatever works for you. And compiling my own software? Sure, if I'm into that, I can do it, or I can download and install the .rpm or whatever, or use a graphical admin tool to install an app and all the dependencies automatically. You seem to have 10 or 15 year old information that you're working from.

Yes, Linux has been doing better in this regard but everyone seems to be going in a completely different direction with a lot of the supporters and developers scuffing at the idea of making Linux easier for the common man.

Not sure which supporters and developers you've been talking to, but, based on your wrong assumptions above, it seems that your point of view may be a bit skewed in relation to reality.

The real question is: Is Linux for developers and geeks, or is it for everyone? And that is something the Linux community needs to answer before it can move forward.

As someone else said, it's about the apps. Don't click on the blue E, click on this firefox icon. Same internet. The blue W is now this here, which is called openoffice, and can read and write Word files just fine. And so on. The lady in the article failed by not knowing what she was buying. Dell screwed up by not fixing the problem.

It's not for "everyone". Someone who wants to play the victim and whine about all the reasons she dropped out of school, most of which are her own fault, to be honest isn't a good target audience for Linux. If it had been set up for her with Openoffice and her NIC drivers (which probably worked without the install CD anyway), she would have been perfectly fine. A few minutes of training unless she was rock stupid.

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've installed Windows 7 fucking beta a few days ago. The GUI is very different from the XP GUI and it took me OVER A MINUTE (so, instead of RTFM-ing, I was able to do some work around the home, because I don't live in my parents' basement any more)to fully configure my internet connection and watch my movies...
The screen flickers a bit when I get the UAC and there are a few other bugs, but they don't interfere with the general usability of the operating system.
Sorry, Linux, but Windows 7 r0x0rz for me (and I'm a software developer).

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI, my mom DOES use Linux. Right now I have her set up on Kubuntu on a kickass box I built a while back, but 3 months ago I had her using Ubuntu on an ancient machine (which ran quite well, even though the box struggled under the weight of XP). I figured that since she doesn't know how to use Windows, she'd be on equal footing with Windows or Linux. Besides which, I knew she'd be happy about the price and the performance of the OS.

And no, she's not a developer or a computer geek. Before I set her up on Linux, she barely knew how to operate a browser or check her e-mail. Now she's able to check out real-estate quotes and surf for the latest news.

She hasn't had to look at a terminal window, she hasn't had to compile anything, and I'm pretty sure she doesn't know WHAT a configuration file is. All she really interfaces with is Synaptic to install and update software. That's really all there is to it.

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

Terminal windows? Compile your software? Configuration files? What are you talking about? Give Ubuntu a try. Your ideas about Linux date from 90'.

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[JacobSteelsmith]

I assisted both my mother in law and her sister in switching from Windows XP to Ubuntu. They are both novice computer users and both had computers that were riddled with malware. After about half an hour each, they were off and running and haven't looked back. They love the fact that they can install all the software they need from one place and have both installed new hardware, which just works.

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

mostly it just amounts to asking simple questions... some people expect the world to rotate around them and will go to no end to change it if it doesn't. I have to deal with this on a daily basis with my brother. (im 34, he' 28) He just learned to drive because he couldn't be bothered with that before.... easier to ask people for rides.

I've learned in my life to take people lke that and relocate them as far outside my comfort zone since the next problem might be that the Toyota car they buy doesn't have the Honda logo on the steering wheel like their old Honda so Toyota kept them from driving.
Breathing is a chore. It sickens me, and no amount of apathy can make this better aside from correcting the action and informing that person how to better themselves to never run into that line of "problem" again...

It REALLY reminds me of when I picked up my EEE 900a netbook a month ago. (for $179) I chose that one and not the $324 version because I didn't have a need for Windows, webcam, or bluetooth. (3 bucks buys a usb bluetooth adapter...) Sure, it came with 1gb ram instead of 2gb, but $50 fixed that whenn I cared to spend the money after experimenting with the netbook for a while. The first argument I hear is how Windows brings you more memory because it's a better operating system. (every other complaint was laughed at since it was about word/excel/etc and it comes with openoffice)

The thing that got to me was even with a calm voice, you cannot correct a person like this. They will attempt to discount you and attempt to prove you are a person who is uneducated. It always ends up with "whatever" and they walk away like that makes them right. In this case, its odd since it only effects my life and it turned out to be many peoples personal duty to prove me wrong :) (I'm an old-school Linux/Unix admin, used Linux since 1994 with slakware)

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[jbolden]

Linux is for everybody but it has a vision.

It not willing to adopt the worst practices of the windows world to get their. So
-- No binary only drivers from hardware vendors
-- No retail model of software distribution
-- No one size fits all computing

If at the end of the day the Windows/Microsoft model is really what people want then I'd rather they use windows. If on the other hand they want a world of:

-- Incredibly powerful computers preconfigured to do even non standard things well
-- Choice and freedom
-- Ownership and portability of their data

Then Linux is an option.

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[Risen888]

The real question is: Is Linux for developers and geeks, or is it for everyone? And that is something the Linux community needs to answer before it can move forward.

Then by all means, allow me. Linux is for everyone who wants it. It is not for everyone who is bound and determined to not use it, or not ever learn anything about anything. And that's just fine.

So, moving on then.

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[HermMunster]

LoL, perfect.

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[torstenvl]

GNOME isn't uglier than Windows XP or Vista in the "classic" mode...

Yeah, you're right. The textflow and font-handling arent't ugly at all. </sarcasm>

GNOME has a LOOOOOOOOOONG way to go before it's as professional as System 7.x, let alone a "modern" UI.

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[meist3r]

Then go ahead write a patch!

It's free. Sure it has flaws but so does the multi-billion dollar version. A free ice cone doesn't necessarily come with sprinkles on it but if you still enjoy ice cream you can have a good one every now and again. The problem comes in when there's a cheap crap icecream store at every corner that sells only three different flavors with standard sprinkles (instead of thousands of ones with whatever you want on top -even cheese). The good stuff then becomes so precious nobody sells it anymore and the only ones still caring about the product itself sit in their niches and try to survive.

Then you're fed cheap industrial ice cream at work and at home and wherever people don't know about the home-made deliciousness that is potentially right around the corner. Soon everyone has forgotten what real ice cream can taste like and if someone offers them a cone without sprinkles on top they throw it away in disgust. Didn't even taste it but then go around telling everyone how horrible these home-made ice-cones are.

Damn, now I want some ice cream. Remember: It's Delicious!

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[djnewman]

Please let me restate the obvious - computers are not yet toasters. (I know you have an attachment...) Until PC's get to the point of open the box, plug it in and use it like a toaster, we will hear these sorts of stories. You may think the OS doesn't matter, but it does. Why to people use Mac's? EASE OF USE of course - if any computer is almost to the appliance stage it's a Mac. Windows PC's and Windows in general get knocked around, but in general Windows XP is pretty stable and easy enough for most anyone to use as long as they have a geek family member to support them. Even Mac has this support issue - witness Genius Bars at the Apple store - there's always a line there. As to using Linux, Ubuntu is easliy the most usable version especially if you didn't have to install it yourself. It can look like Mac or PC and run some fairly compatable software (Open Office), and I think probably with Wine, it could run the stupid Verizon disk too if that was needed to gen a password. (Forget the hardware issues). My point is, until we get to the toaster stage, the Personal Computer will still be geek territory. I'm not sure if this is good or bad, but I hope it's a ways off as I can't retire yet.

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

If your mom is prepared to spend some time re-learning and exploring she can start to use Linux today. I'd recommend Linux Mint or Ubuntu.

If your mom is not prepared to re-learn, she can never use Linux. Nor can she ever use Mac OS.

Naturally I don't expect her to set up TCP/IP or install any drivers. You do that for her in Windows too, right?

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[thetoadwarrior]

My mom is no computer expert and aside from learning the UI difference between programs she can use Ubuntu.

It comes installed with everything the "average" person needs and if they need more there is the package manager. There isn't a reason for an average user to be in the terminal or compiling programs.

It's not like the average person will be svn into a repositry for some source code to compile the latest version of some program.

Bringing up the terminal or compiling for a reason that the average person can't use Linux is a load of BS because they don't have to do that.

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[Carlosos]

I don't know about your mother but mine started with a $150 Linux computer. I did set up Thunderbird and Firefox for her and she didn't have too many problems with it.
After a year a telephone system was connected to her computer that only ran under Windows and I switched her over to Windows XP. She noticed that it looked different but it also worked the same way since she still used Firefox and Thunderbird. She had more Problems with XP because some of the things installed on Linux like a PDF viewer wasn't installed by default but that can easily installed.
The next PC for her will probably be again a Linux PC since the telephone system died a year ago and I'm sure that she will be able to use it like she was able to use it a few years ago.

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[mR.bRiGhTsId3]

Shennanigans! 8.10, instead of being able to use the terminal to make it work, it just won't function at all. The problem remains on the Linux side that components are poorly integrated into each other. My favorite case being WEP with 802.1x auth just doesn't work. No errors, nothing.
I particularly like your case in point about features not working for a graphics card made on Tuesday. How about features not working if your graphics card manufacturer's name starts in n and ends in vidia. Case in point. That new fangled xrandr frontend that flat out doesn't work on nVidia cards. Maybe I'm bitter from all the times I've been personally failed by linux software and heard how it would be fixed eventually
Sure, your need directions to understand Windows, just like all the different Linux shells, but at least all the components can talk to each other.
In the meantime, enjoy beating your head on your desk because something foolishly isn't working, when all the good programs available on Linux, also run on Windows and OS X, and those systems actually work in most of the foreseeable use cases.

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[meist3r]

Never said it didn't have any flaws. I run a desktop computer with an ATi card and even that one works properly after they finally made some better drivers. I was always jealous at my buddy because he had an nvidia card that works with Compiz right after installation. Don't know what you're doing wrong though. Wireless I did have a problem but only with WPA+WPA2 before 8.10 came out. The new network manager solved all these problems for me. From what I can tell your situation is entirely hardware driver related. Can't blame that on Linux, blame it on your hardware manufacturers that won't release documentation.

You probably already tried setting up your WEP wifi with wpa_supplicant yeah? That always worked for me. The only thing left to say now is (exactly what the Windows people would have to tell you too): Get new hardware! Find some that works. I have all my hardware running even the internal USB wifi 802.11b card that came with the computer years ago and I didn't have to buy any new components at all.

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

A profoundly ignorant comment, and off-topic. This thread is about making Linux usable by casual, non-programmer users. Go away, troll.

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[meist3r]

Sure off-topic, see that little "branch" in the thread structure ... new discussions start there. GNOME IS usable for casual users. The guy I answered to was complaining that the current state didn't reflect HIS expectation of GNOME as a UI system. That's no casual requirement so there you go. A casual user doesn't want to change Windows or do they? I bet they do but since they can't even write patches or have a reasonable way of requesting features Linux is even ahead in this respect.

I dare you to find one Slashdot Microsoft/Linux article of any category that is still entirely "on-topic" after the second thread branch. First register a username and understand how the comments work here before you write. Otherwise go away, troll.

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

Calling people names like "troll" doesn't help your cause. Please try to keep the tone polite and helpful.

A casual user can't change Linux either, because they "can't even write patches or have a reasonable way of requesting features" because, if they do request features, some zealot tells them to write it themselves. It's very frustrating.

And readable text isn't a "feature." It's a baseline requirement.

Re:When can my mom use Linux?

[meist3r]

Calling people names like "troll" doesn't help your cause. Please try to keep the tone polite and helpful.

Read the post I responded to again, I just threw back what he tossed into my yard. I'm not the one writing anonymous posts that I don't answer calling other people silly names. If you didn't notice that was a witty way to give him a taste of his own medicine.

A casual user can't change Linux either, because they "can't even write patches or have a reasonable way of requesting features" because, if they do request features, some zealot tells them to write it themselves. It's very frustrating.

Yeah? And where is that? On Slashdot in the comments? Not exactly the appropriate place to call for new GNOME features. I have filed dozens of bugs and feature requests with several projects and many of those were answered very politely and nicely. Some where even implemented and/or fixed. That's way more than I ever got from Microsoft support. If people use every opportunity and discussion about any FOSS project to complain about what's wrong with the software but never actually file a request with the project itself then that, also, is very frustrating as you can imagine. It's no surprise that "zealots" will tell them to stfu. I requested features for WINE, Xfce, Deluge, Comix, Guake Terminal and many others and I always got very nice responses and sometimes fixes within 48 hours.

You can run around the streets 24/7 shouting "BMW are bastards they build shit cars" because your in-drive computer froze. People will tell you to quit the whining and won't be very helpful at all. Now, if you go to your BMW dealer on the other hand and tell them about it they probably will be very interested to understand your problem and help you as a user. See my point?

And readable text isn't a "feature." It's a baseline requirement.

And running a 1024x768 resolution on a 14" display and then complain about scaling is a baseline user behavior? So what the text is broken, it's readable. I have to use translated versions of MS Windows all the time and it's a pain what they did to error messages and menus. Don't even start with German Vista. Write a complaint about it to the GNOME people and someone might fix it for you. That's just what a non-professional system will bring with it. You can just as well BUY a Windows license and stop blaming people for your problems with the FREE software you're using.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[MightyYar]

This woman is beyond stupid, though. She dropped out of school because she couldn't figure out how to make her computer work. And then, apparently, her solution to this life crisis wasn't to ask someone knowledgeable about computers - it was to call the local news!

So let me get this straight...

[thesolo]

She's enrolling at the Madison Area Technical College, and couldn't be bothered to read the specs on a laptop she ordered? Sorry, made me chuckle. It's not as though Dell hides what OS comes with each laptop!

Kidding aside, Dell should have just allowed her to return it for a Windows model if that's what she wanted. She clearly did not have the technical prowess to figure out how to configure her internet access without the walkthrough software.

Re:So let me get this straight...

[tompaulco]

Give me a break. The average person doesn't know what an OS is, so wouldn't be any more surprised finding the word Ubuntu in there than they would to find the word SATA. To the masses, a PC is a PC, and they probably expect when ordering something from Dell that it will be ready for them to plug in and it works. Why? Because that is the way it has been for 20 years. Now, we have manufacturers shipping linux on PCs to unsuspecting customers and not surprisingly, they can't figure out how to make it work. I personally don't think we need everyone who is going to have a PC be smart enough to run linux. Maybe linux needs to be simple enough that anybody that owns a PC can use it. But that is not necessary, because we have Windows.

Re:So let me get this straight...

[iainl]

They did offer to replace it with a Windows model. But because the random Dell tech told her that Linux is great when you get the hang of it, she changed her mind.

Now she realises she should have taken up the offer after all, her phone call is to the local TV station instead.

Re:So let me get this straight...

[jrothwell97]

This is why Ubuntu needs a tutorial. The first time the desktop appears, a dialog should be brought up saying 'press T if you've never used a computer before and need help, click here if you have used Windows before but not Ubuntu, click here to dismiss this message'.

Re:So let me get this straight...

[Anonymous Coward]

MATC is a school right next to UW-Madison. It is considered the place to go if you can't cut it at the University. Probably a better name for the institution would be Madison Area Technically College.

Re:So let me get this straight...

[Sobrique]

Unix is very user friendly; It's just a bit choosier about it's friends.

Re:So let me get this straight...

[Tweaker_Phreaker]

Technical Colleges are mostly filled with people that should be flipping burgers. It's where people go when they don't have the grades or sometimes money for a real school. I'm suprised this fud made it onto slashdot (saw it on digg earlier).

This woman was clearly looking for any excuse to drop out and is blaming it on a computer instead of her own will but that's not even what the article is about. The article is slander with all its anti-linux rhetoric such as the following choice quotes:

"But something stopped her: Ubuntu. " - she could have told the dell tech what her problems were and they would have given her the easy solutions or she could have asked someone at the school. The only thing stopping her is herself.

"Schubert says she ordered her laptop online at Dell.com expecting to buy your classic bread-and-butter computer." - What would this story be about if she had gotten Vista or a Mac and it couldn't run the ISP install disc either? There is no such thing as a standard operating system and every computer user has to figure out how to solve problems that arise even if it means finding someone to fix it for you.

"She called Dell the very next day and says the representative told her there was still time to change back to Windows." - how could she change BACK to something that was never on it?

"However, we think we've helped her get back to school." - no you haven't, you just made a couple phone calls she would have made herself if she was truly interested in going back to school.

Re:So let me get this straight...

[jbolden]

20 years ago:

There were:

Macs, PCs, Amigas, Suns, SGIs, HP workstations and you get still get an Apple III I think.

Moreover PCs came with: Dos, Windows, Xenix, and there was still some CP/M out there.

People had to deal with multiple OSes.

Re:So let me get this straight...

[Anonymous Coward]

Dell does have a 30 day "Total Satisfaction" Return Policy.

She didn't use it.

Re:So let me get this straight...

[MBGMorden]

Technical Colleges are mostly filled with people that should be flipping burgers. It's where people go when they don't have the grades or sometimes money for a real school. I'm suprised this fud made it onto slashdot (saw it on digg earlier).

While there is some truth to your statement regardinging the makeup of the student body, I think that's largely just because of the lower tuition rates at most Technical Colleges. Most of them also offer flexible enough schedules that people can "dabble". IE, you'll get 35-40 year old mothers who are just starting to get their children to the point where they no longer need as much attention, who now want to "go back to school" to see if they can figure out a way to start a career later in life. Some make it and some don't.

That said, I've found that while it's not quite up to the standards of a "real" college, there are good classes to be taken at most technical colleges. I know that I've used the local one quite a bit myself. I already have a degree from a "real" college, but I've found it very handy to take a class or two every now and then at the local tech school just to keep busy. I've taken a few French classses that helped quite a bit, in addition to an AS/400 class that I took once I got a job in a location that they used one (even though it wasn't part of my job to actually do anything with it, I figured that if they had one in the deparment I might eventually need to know something, so I took the class ahead of time).

Overall, they serve a purpose.

Re:So let me get this straight...

[Totenglocke]

Except that in order to GET an Ubuntu system from Dell, you HAVE to do a search on Dell's site for Ubuntu (ok, maybe Linux might work as well, haven't tried that one). The point is still the same -- she went looking for an Ubuntu system, god only knows why when she can barely find the power button on a computer, but she got what she ordered and she didn't order it by accident.

Re:So let me get this straight...

[Anonymous Coward]

While I think most people are right there is one issue with your statement. What would the turnaround time be on returning the laptop and getting a new one be? Would she still have not been able to start classes? There is blame all around on this. The big thing I'm curious about is the Dell issue. Did the rep really talk her into Ubuntu? People keep going "they wouldn't do that" but how does anyone here know that. Maybe the person that took the order was a Linux nut and always does that? In all honesty someone who just knows windows (a large portion of the world) might assume that someone that suggested something different would understand their needs. And as for people making fun on the classes at the school you do realize there are people out there that have issues using a TV remote right? If you have never needed to use a computer you may take classes just to learn the basics. Most of us took something like that back in High School or even before that but some people had no want to take those classes so they literally have no clue how to turn on the computer. But then again they rank right up there that think Internet Explorer is the internet and that they monitor is their computer.

Re:So let me get this straight...

[WiiVault]

Maybe linux needs to be simple enough that anybody that owns a PC can use it. But that is not necessary, because we have the Mac.

There fixed that for you.

Or it could read...

[coolate]

Woman dumb ass, blames others. This is what drives me nuts, people complain when others do not take care of them or they can not wipe their own butts.

Is her name John Dvorak?

[jollyreaper]

This sounds like one of his troll articles.

Re:Is her name John Dvorak?

[LingNoi]

Funny enough I originally saw this news article in a troll post. I'm surprised that it's made headlines since it's typically non-news worthy, all her problems have been solved now.

"Unaware"?

[Dolohov]

If she knew she needed her Verizon Online disk (which I doubt) or Microsoft Word (which I don't), why didn't she ask whoever she talked to at Dell?

Would there have been a similar story about a consumer who didn't realize they had no use for a car with a manual transmission, and then let themselves be talked into keeping it by someone who (rightly?) said that manual transmissions have better performance and are not hard to learn?

Re:"Unaware"?

[tompaulco]

Good car analogy, at least in the U.S. Because here in the U.S. many people are probably unaware that there is an alternative to automatic transmissions given that 95% or better of cars out there are automatics. So, if this woman ordered a car, and received a car with a manual transmission and couldn't get it to work, yes I think she has a legitimate complaint. Because of the rarity of manual transmissions, and linux home users, manufacturers need to be careful to make sure that people are aware of what they are getting.

Re:"Unaware"?

[diskofish]

I doubt the Dell support people would have been much help. I ordered some stuff from Dell a few years ago, and need to return it. It wasn't a pleasant experience, and as a result, I would never do business with Dell again.

From what I've found about tech support, most of the support people (including Dell) simply read from their script and don't understand most of the questions you ask.

Really Dell is in the wrong, and the computer was a good execute for the student to drop out of classes.

Re:"Unaware"?

[jbolden]

My 7 year old (at the time) knew what a manual transmission (stick shift) was. So yes I agree it is a reasonable analogy.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[trolltalk.com]

It's funny because she claims she couldn't get online because her Verizon install CD didn't work. She should have checked to see if she wasn't already online before complaining - I've seen people bitch about "I can't run my install" when all they needed to do was click on the browser - they were already online.

If you read the article, this is someone who was just looking for an excuse to abandon the courses. It's not like openoffice doesn't work, or that networking under linux isn't pretty much "plug it in and go online."

Yup

[ZekoMal]

Not that many people are computer literate. Give them an OS that isn't as user friendly as Windows, and they won't be able to figure it out.

But it's not even the user-friendly issue as much as it is the familiarity issue. If you use something every day, it works, is easy, and fast, why switch? It's like saying 'instead of using a knife to butter my toast, I shall use a machine that butters my toast when I input a command. Yes, the machine probably works just as good as the knife, but given the choice, the average person would rather use a knife.

In short, linux is cool for people that know a computer. But the average user would feel much more comfortable with windows. I don't think it's 'entertaining' either; this is a fact, and you can't expect everybody to be comfortable using a new OS (especially not while taking online classes; the added pressure of due dates and tests on top of trying to figure out how to use a whole new OS is not a laughing matter).

I mean, I'm not a computer moron, but the first time I saw an Ubuntu desktop I got pretty tripped up. I've been on Windows OS for nearly 10 years, so it's not like going to Ubuntu in one fell swoop would be a seamless transition to begin with.

Re:Yup

[LingNoi]

Not that many people are computer literate. Give them an OS that isn't as user friendly as Windows, and they won't be able to figure it out.

oh how did anyone survive before the wonder years of windows.

Your post is typical troll material. You neglect to mention the many years before windows was released where people (including many women) would use computers much like they do now.

The only difference is the amount of graphics used.

Re:Yup

[unleashedgamers]

The average user hasn't been locked into Windows for over 10 years, most people are just a clueless on how to do stuff in Windows as you are in Linux. They look at the screen and if they have basic problem solving they'll start to find out how to do things after 5-10 minutes (maybe longer with a Mac, Finder -> Applications might be too complex) People just click around until stuff happens and if it works great! if it doesn't work its broken!

Stick most people who don't use computers all the time in front of a Linux or Windows computer and all they see is confusion.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Her lack of computer finesse isn't the funny thing here for me. I saw the newscast on this. She had two problems: She didn't have MS Office, and her Verizon internet disc tried to run it's startup.exe. She just has to save her papers in .doc format, and have a Verizon tech crew come out and fix her internet. It took the news anchorman two (2) phone calls to fix this for her.. so what attempt is there to mock? She probably just slacked off for her classes and used Dell as as excuse.

um...

[Anonymous Coward]

that chick is HOT

lol...

[ChimneysCantTalk]

...women. Hit them with a baseball bat /flame

FUD anyone?

[dmomo]

This article reads as if it's saying: "Buyer beware. You get what you pay for.". I'd like to say this is the fault of the woman. This might be true. She could just be looking for attention / someone to blame. As far as my experience goes, Ubuntu "just works" with the internet. But maybe she did have trouble. Understanding the ins and outs of the way different OSs work should not be a requirement to access information. Sure, it does help, though.

I would blame anyone (like Verizon and perhaps the University) who gives the appearance that Windows is even necessary in the first place.

is this a picture of her

[Anonymous Coward]

She looks blond what do you expect. Sarcasm alert. even now i will still get people telling me blonds aren't all stupid. Prediction alert.

Re:is this a picture of her

[MightyYar]

She looks blond what do you expect.

I expect her to be more fun.

Newsflash!

[Qbertino]

Newsflash: Online student discovers that basic brain functions are required to run and operate a computer. Film at eleven.

Re:Newsflash!

[trolltalk.com]

Newsflash: Anyone who pays money to "attend" a "Technical College" that gives "credit" for such "courses" as "Windows Vista", "Introduction to Keyboarding" and "Introduction Internet" is too dumb to use a computer.

Credit for learning how to send an email? What a fucking joke.

Internet Introduction
Catalog #10103146

Introduction to email software: send, receive, reply to, and forward messages; attach files; use signature blocks; and organize mail in folders. Overview of Internet features: web browsers and search engines, bookmarks and shortcuts, hypertext links and URL addresses, digital camera use, and on-line web resources. Prerequisite: competency in Windows (10103124, 10103134, or 10103135).

Credits: 1

Talk about low expectations. This shouldn't take one class, never mind a whole course.

Re:Newsflash!

[Koiu Lpoi]

Hint: Don't post the exact same thing in multiple places. If I had mod points, both your posts would be modded redundant.

Re:Newsflash!

[Anonymous Coward]

man discover computer cant compute itself. He call 911 for help. Man ask to be put in the jail cell with his brother tom.

Re:Newsflash!

[Viree]

Hint: Don't post the exact same thing in multiple places. If I had mod points, both your posts would be modded redundant.

perfect example of the monopoly effect

[toby]

Not only has Microsoft done everything they can to bring about this absurd customer-hostile outcome, they obviously profit by it. Eliminating choice is their aim.

This kind of technical checkmate is a direct result of Microsoft's abuse of its monopoly. No clearer case can be made that avoiding meaningful remedies for their conviction (thankyou Bush) was a disastrous error for computer users and the industry in general.

Re:perfect example of the monopoly effect

[elrous0]

So what is MS supposed to do, try to NOT be so popular?

Re:perfect example of the monopoly effect

[LingNoi]

This story has nothing to do with Microsoft. Please leave the Microshit out of Linux related articles.

I prefer real discussion on Linux rather then discussion on a company that doesn't interest me and about an operating system I don't use.

College isn't for everyone..

[RagingFuryBlack]

Isn't the whole college experience suppose to teach us critical thinking and problem solving skills to use in real life? This woman had a problem and instead of attempting to fix it, she complained bitched and gave up. Its a shame that the media would cover such a story. This story is IMO at least, less about *nix and more about how some woman is making herself look infinitely stupid by not taking care to solve her own problems.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

"A few google searches" ?

She couldn't connect !

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[elrous0]

We geeks tend to live in a bit of an echo chamber and so we can lose perspective on just how ignorant and computer illiterate the average citizen is. Just the response "A few google searches by her would have revealed..." is just one example. There are a LOT of people (probably the *majority* of people) out there who have no idea what a "google search" is. Most of the people that I work with (and these are college-educated people, mind you), don't know what a browser is (they refer to Internet Explorer as "the internet"). And no, I'm not joking (I wish I was).

This is a perfect opportunity

[Anonymous Coward]

For some of you geeks in Wisconsin to step up and offer this woman some help. This may actually be your only chance, in your entire life, to get out of your parent's basement and have contact with a real, live, female. Time's-a-wastin' fellas.

Its not Ubuntu's fault

[reeeh2000]

While DELL should have fixed the problem, don't blame Ubuntu. Verizon purposely designs its phones to be unusable with Linux. Verizon has a track record of locking its phones. For example, the Blackberry's built in GPS is inaccessible so that Verizon can charge to use its triangulation based navigation system.

As for the classes, the developers of the online software have an obligation to make it work on as many systems as possible. While Linux developers must continue to work towards compatibility with other systems, the companies behind them must work with us as well.

Finally, before anyone goes calling this woman idiotic for this compliant, we should make an offer to teach her about the technology and how to use non-Linux software through applications such as Wine.

Re:Its not Ubuntu's fault

[limaxray]

A couple things:

A) Verizon Wireless is not the same company as Verizon - it is partially owned by Verizon, but it's not the same company and they operate completely differently. Her issue was with Verizon, not Verizon Wireless.

B) Both Verizon internet services and Verizon Wireless phones work just fine in Linux. In fact, Network-Manager in Ubuntu 8.10 supports mobile internet devices out of the box - I have no problem tethering with my Verizon Wireless phone and had to do zero configuration to get it working.

C) This woman is idiotic - there is no need for her to use any non-Linux software for what she is trying to do - Ubuntu does it all out of the box. If she rubbed a couple braincells together and RTFM she wouldn't have had a problem. Honestly though, I think this is just an excuse for her dropping out of school, and not the actual cause.

sales and tech support really dropped the ball

[swanriversean]

She actually realized she had made a mistake before the computer was shipped, and called Dell. But the rep she spoke to convinced her to stick with Ubuntu anyway. It appears that he didn't suggest one of the support packages that Dell offers for their Ubuntu machines.

Another missed part of the story is that Verizon mustn't have done anything to help her before this became news (given my experience with big ISPs they don't give much help if you're using Linux, so I assume she called).

While it isn't exactly fair to expect companies to bend over backwards to help customers with what they perceive to be "exotic" setups, I wonder why, after all these years, they don't at least have a list of local LUGs to which they could direct Linux users. Had someone at least got her in touch with them, I bet the problems could have been resolved.

Re:sales and tech support really dropped the ball

[Anonymous Coward]

Agent: I can direct you to some user groups online where you can go to get help. Just go to

Woman: Ok. Thanks.
*click*

Woman: (it's not working, my internet doesn't work.)

Re:sales and tech support really dropped the ball

[infalliable]

Do you think she was even capable of running a Windows install disc if they sent it to her?

She had no clue what she needed or wanted, paid for it, then was pissed that it wasn't perfect. Like one of the commentators on the original story said (to paraphrase), she heard she needed books for class, then went to Borders and bought some without ever seeing which ones they were.

Re:sales and tech support really dropped the ball

[swanriversean]

ftfa:
She didn't realize until the next morning her laptop defaulted to the Ubuntu operating system. ...
Schubert says she never heard of Ubuntu before learning that's when she accidentally bought. She called Dell the very next day and says the representative told her there was still time to change back to Windows.
But she says Dell discouraged her.
"The person I was talking to said Ubuntu was great, college students loved it, it was compatible with everything I needed," said Schubert.
So she stuck with it.

I liked the book quote too, and if I was hearing this story from a friend or family member, I'd be pretty certain I was hearing a steaming load of excuses for dropping out of school. Still, I don't know this woman, so I'll assume she's sincere.

Once the Dell agent realized that she was obviously new to Linux, he either should have let her switch to Windows for a few bucks more, or signed her up for the 30 day or 1 year software support contract.

Re:sales and tech support really dropped the ball

[louks]

I wonder why, after all these years, [Verizon] do[es]n't at least have a list of local LUGs to which they could direct Linux users. Had someone at least got her in touch with them, I bet the problems could have been resolved.

Wow, what a wonderful idea for a community/national non-profit; create a LUG technical support system that is approved or recommended by businesses. Buy a gOS machine from Wal-Mart? Call the enclosed 800 number to contact your nearest LUG, or call Wal-Mart and get the direct line in your area. "Operators are standing by!" I know much of the Linux community is either; (a)fixing their own machine, or (b)writing/updating software for everyone else's, but I'm sure there are some volunteers available to get folks like this at least STARTED on the right path.

I know there are for-profit systems like Shuttleworth's, but there MUST be room/money for this type of "pro-bono" work.

Warranty

[spicyed]

I don't understand why changing software on your computer would violate the warranty on your hardware.

Re:Warranty

[bleh-of-the-huns]

It doesn't, no matter what they say (but you may have to force the issue in a court of law...)

Changing the OS and software only voids your support with Dell, changing the OS does not, if your screen explodes, (yes I know there are ways drivers can foul up hardware, but its rare), that has little to do with the OS, and in dells case, when you send your laptop in for warranty service, you take out your hard drive before sending it in. Thats what I did. There is no way for them to know what OS your running at that point.

Re:Warranty

[novafluxx]

It doesn't void the warranty. Its just Dell tech support won't support the software, and will not troubleshoot any software problems on an OS that did not ship with the system. Canonical provides the support and troubleshooting for Dell systems shipped with Ubuntu. If she installs Windows on that system, and calls Dell for support in the future, they will NOT support her software issues, and will only be able to run diagnostics on the hardware using their diagnostic partition (assuming she doens't blow it out when installing Windows)

So, hold on a second...

[Anonymous Coward]

This person orders ubuntu when, if she spent a second verifying, people at her college and internet say that their stuff requires product windows.

And now this person is upset at UNBUNTU that when they call in, they are told lies that ubuntu will run all her crazy stuff that requires windows?

Talk about blaming the wrong people. Her beef is with Dell for lying to her, and herself for not checking what she was buying first. Unbuntu does NOT run windows products. She needs to run windows products. She didn't buy windows, hence she now has a problem.

What's next? Blaming the metric system because you bought a metric bolt for your car when the repair manual clearly states it needs a standard thread? Sure, you can blame the bolt manufacturer for stating that their metric bolts are fine with standard threaded applications, but at the same time, you need to blame yourself for being dumb enough to buy the wrong product for the application.

Idiots, all of these people. And especially the news for reporting on this as anything but "Dumb woman gets lied to by Dell tech support".

Man claims Porsche kept him from getting laid

[meist3r]

After the man had purchased a brand new Porsche the day before he hooked up with a random floozy in a club and wanted to give her a ride home, where he whould then continue to ride and then go home. His attempt was brought to a quick and nagging halt when he discovered the hole for the ignition key was mounted on the left side of the steering column where his newly found friend couldn't stay aroused by looking at his Porsche keychain dangling from the wheel.

He asked Porsche to install the ignition the other way around but was talked out of it given the decades old tradition of left mounted ignition in Porsche vehicles. He refused to handle the key with the left hand and subsequently broke his elbow during the attempt of operating it with his right.

His lawyer announced today that he was going to sue Porsche and the Left-Handers Society of America for building such a highly inconvenient car and damages amounting to 15.0000 US dollars and two Apple-tinis.


In other news: Stupid woman saves money with alternative open operating system - Misses Online Strip Class

Re:Man claims Porsche kept him from getting laid

[Anonymous Coward]

My Porsche has a right-handed ignition. heh

Re:Man claims Porsche kept him from getting laid

[meist3r]

You're either British (then your wheel is on the right too) or you have one of these "modern" washed down Porsches. The 911s all have left hand ignition afaik.

Re:Man claims Porsche kept him from getting laid

[JerTheRipper]

You have no idea how long it took me to find the ignition the first time I drove a Porsche

Re:Man claims Porsche kept him from getting laid

[Anonymous Coward]

A woman talked to an entertainment company, trying to get a pony ride for her daughter's birthday party. When it arrived she was not only shocked to discover that a bull had been accidentally delivered, but that the saddle they had sent for the pony would not fit on the bull.

After test riding the bull and having her arm broken, she waited a few months for it to heal and then sued the entertainment company.

Professor Farnsworth says:

[neonux]

And you woman! The evil I could tolerate but the stupidity... grr!

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[TheLinuxSRC]

And yet here is a normal person, trying to use it, and finding it frustrating and causing her problems, and people mock her attempt.

According to the story she somehow accidentally ordered the laptop with Ubuntu. I am not sure how she managed that because I have to *search* Dell's site to find their Linux offerings, but I digress and that is irrelevant anyway.

What is relevant is that she received a laptop configured in a manner she was unfamiliar with. She should have just returned the laptop if it was sent this way in error. My point is, she didn't attempt to use it (Ubuntu) in any sort of meaningful way. She *assumed* the laptop had Windows installed. She is familiar with Windows. She attempted running a disk that requires Windows and then looked for the MS Office icons and couldn't find them and then she gave up. Again, if what she ordered was a Windows machine, the blame falls squarely on Dell and Dell should make it right. If she did order the laptop with Ubuntu and ignored all of the warnings about how this order does not have Windows and Windows software will not run on Linux etc.... then the blame is fully hers.

This has nothing to do with Windows vs. Linux as she never made a conscious choice to use Linux. She also didn't make much effort in using Ubuntu. In fact, if she has to miss *two* semesters of school because of this, it screams to me that she was looking for a reason to not go to school and this is the perfect excuse in her mind.

Thank you for your suggestion

[DragonHawk]

"Dell, if someone calls and says they got a Ubuntu computer by mistake, just have them ship it back. "

We'll get right on that.

Sincerely,

All of Dell (we all read Slashdot, but just share this one account)

Re:Thank you for your suggestion

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, it makes absolutely zero sense to use a digital camera since 99.99% of the use of that picture is going to be put on .gov websites or sent to post offices so they can change the picture in the frame, or in publications that are probably made with something like InDesign. I'd imagine whatever advantages you got out of the film photo (which I was never a believer in until out wedding photos were done on an antique camera with the crank and everything out of a 50's period movie), would be lost in the scanning process.

I'd just have them take a picture with a polaroid. I can just see the huge ornate frame with a tiny polaroid taped in the center. All the other world leaders would either find it humorous and say "this guy is cool" or think I'm crazy enough not to mess with. (Forgive my spelling from time to time. I'm often posting during short breaks.)

Re:Thank you for your suggestion

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF?

Re:Thank you for your suggestion

[Anonymous Coward]

So you are the those jerks

Re:Thank you for your suggestion

[sgt scrub]

Which memo had the password in it? I wanted to post a response.

Re:Thank you for your suggestion

[Twinbee]

The irony is that would actually be a good move by Dell to have someone who checks the news (even Slashdot) and correspond with the public like this. Companies like Ebay and Google do this on various forums out there...

Re:Thank you for your suggestion

[Anonymous Coward]

When Google does it, it's usually someone like Dibona who is a slashdot addict but usually he posts under a different user name (Eris and Twitter if I am not mistake).

This is likely to be MS astroturfing/fake news

[Qbertino]

I just posted a witty reply to this story. Reading TFA again it occured to me that this is most likely MS fake news and/or astroturfing. It requires quite a few clicks to actually customize a Laptop at Dell and have it come with Ubuntu rather than some MS Windows variant.
I'd say this might very well be fake news.

Re:This is likely to be MS astroturfing/fake news

[Nethead]

Never describe YOURSELF as witty. Leave it to others to make that call.

Re:This is likely to be MS astroturfing/fake news

[Spatial]

Ever heard of occam's razor? That isn't the most likely situation at all.

Re:This is likely to be MS astroturfing/fake news

[penguinbrat]

All it takes is two clicks - "choose" and "add to cart"...

Dell Inspiron mini 12 Laptop

The cheapest of the 3 versions, comes with Ubuntu preinstalled.

Semantics Problem, Actually

[mfh]

I see this as mostly a semantics problem. The prof, or person who wrote the syllabus meant something general but said something specific. They likely wrote that students require MS Office for the course(s). What they mean by this is that the students need a word processor and a spreadsheet, possibly power point.

Also it needs to be said that it's against ethical standards for a school to require products of a particular brand name, as long as competing products are sufficient.

I must also add that if you are a student, you could consider ignoring standards set by your prof or dept, if they don't make sense. Many of those standards were written more than ten years ago. Not only that, you are in a competitive setting and you are less competitive if you are confining yourself, using the same generic tools as everyone else in your class.

Of course if MSFT products are BETTER somehow than what you can get, then it would be advised to use them.

I would always opt for students to use what suits them best, rather than what is trendy or required.

The other side of the coin is that Dell wants to save money on MSFT license fees, so they push free OS to keep their costs down. It's not really putting the customer first if the customer feels really cheated by it.

In this particular case, however, I have no idea why Open Office wouldn't suffice, or why the school wouldn't help the student get connected to the internet just reflects poorly on their customer service standards, IMHO.

Re:Semantics Problem, Actually

[diskis]

>The other side of the coin is that Dell wants to save money on MSFT license fees, so they push free OS to keep their costs down. It's not really putting the customer first if the customer feels really cheated by it.

Actually, for Dell, Windows is cheaper. Linux is free, but doesn't bring in any revenue.
Windows costs 30-ish dollars a piece for Dell, and McAfee & others pays Dell slightly more than that so they can have their software preinstalled.

Re:Semantics Problem, Actually

[mfh]

Actually, for Dell, Windows is cheaper. Linux is free, but doesn't bring in any revenue.
Windows costs 30-ish dollars a piece for Dell, and McAfee & others pays Dell slightly more than that so they can have their software preinstalled.

You sort of closed your own argument. McAfee and others pay Dell money that offsets the cost of putting Windows on computers, but if Dell uses Linux, Dell still gets to keep that pre-loaded revenue from these software vendors! The idea is that Dell will save money by using Linux.

I didn't argue that it was a sound business practice, because we all know that Dell has stretched its revenue capability through undercutting their competitors to the point of severe fiduciary incompetence (and as a result, I wouldn't buy Dell stocks). They also did so in a way that wasn't the best for their customers either, by outsourcing a lot of their customer service branches to areas of the world that have trouble speaking English, and also lowering internal company standards in some cases.

Dell plays a lot of games with customers over returns or computer issues. Some customers don't ever see this side of the company and have a really amazing experience with them, but others complain about being royally screwed over by them. They are non-standardized, when this marketplace is all about standardization, ATM. Look at Apple's success with good standardization practices. Perhaps not too exemplary but still a cut above Dell in every way.

It's fixed already :

[Anonymous Coward]

from the FA : "However, we think we've helped her get back to school. Verizon says it will dispatch a technician to try to assist her accessing the internet without using the Windows-only installation disk. MATC also says it promises to accept any of Schubert's papers or class documents using whatever software she has installed." move around, nuffin' to see.

She's not college material.

[tjstork]

You know, I understand her point from the inconvenience, but in the larger sense of the word, I thought college was partially a test in determination and overcoming adversity. Not everything goes right when in school and those who make it through it overcome it, and those who do not, don't.

I know a guy who is getting his degree despite missing a finger and the use of an eye compliments of a tour in Iraq, all while trying to support a wife and son. I would think -he- has some problems to overcome.

  woman has a computer that's not what she expects? I would suggest that, if she has a paper due, get on the internet, find out what she has, learn quickly, and get something out the door. She might, well, learn something, and I thought that was what college was for!

Re:She's not college material.

[Sobrique]

The truth of the world is this:

No one cares why you failed, only that you did.

Your friends will forgive your failures, almost regardless of why.

Your acquaintances will not - they have not real reason to do so - and they'll replace you if your failure rate exceeds the hassle of finding an alternative.

It's harsh, but it really is that simple.

Very good

[Britz]

I think that comment sums it up pretty nicely. Mod parent insightful please.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[PalmKiller]

well unless its pppoe or something like that, in which case a little more work is involved

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[javilon]

If you want to blame someone it would be Verizon. They should provide a Ubuntu disk to assist with the internet configuration.

And the answer "We don't provide Ubuntu disks because nobody uses Ubuntu and everyone uses Windows because everyone uses Windows" is not good enough.

Not with the current generation of netbooks.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[morgan_greywolf]

Thank you. Rather than arguing about saying "Linux isn't for everyone" can we all just agree that in this case "college isn't for everyone?"

Thanks.

Valid yet Stupid

[whisper_jeff]

While she may have a valid concern based on ignorance - she had problems using Ubuntu because she just didn't know how and that's something slashdotters should probably take seriously if they want people to adopt Ubuntu (or some other distro) - I do find her blaming Dell to be idiotic. It's one of the big problems we have with today's society-at-large. Rather than admit something might be one's own shortcoming ("I don't know what I'm doing with Ubuntu...") people try to find someone else to blame. It's all about where can I point the finger that isn't at me? So stupid.

Re:Valid yet Stupid

[DaveV1.0]

She blames Dell because an Ubuntu fanboy at Dell convinced her that her laptop could do everything she needed it to do, which was a lie.

If the Ubuntu fanboy had listened to her and done as she asked, she would not have any problems.

Re:Valid yet Stupid

[whisper_jeff]

It's not a lie. Her laptop could do everything she needed with Ubuntu and the various programs available to it. The problem was she was not informed of _HOW_ to make it all happen. Just because she can doesn't mean she knows how. Until this hurdle is seriously dealt with, Ubuntu will continue to have an uphill climb to widespread acceptance.

Re:Valid yet Stupid

[jimicus]

She blames Dell because an Ubuntu fanboy at Dell convinced her that her laptop could do everything she needed it to do, which was a lie.

If the Ubuntu fanboy had listened to her and done as she asked, she would not have any problems.

While I don't doubt that she had problems getting Ubuntu to do what she needed, if you planned a meal based on chicken only to find you had none in the house, would you go out and buy some, plan an alternate meal or starve?

This lady, it seems, would starve.

Re:Valid yet Stupid

[pandrijeczko]

she had problems using Ubuntu because she just didn't know how and that's something slashdotters should probably take seriously if they want people to adopt Ubuntu (or some other distro)

I really don't like this statement - why would a normal Linux user "want" everyone else to start using it?

In my circle of friends & family, I'm the "freebie" PC support guy & I've pretty much constantly got someone's PC in my house waiting to be upgraded or repaired. And if, as they usually do, hand me a PC with Windows XP on it then, surprisingly, they get it returned with Windows XP on it, despite the fact I use Linux more than Windows these days.

To be entirely honest with you, I would much rather the Windows people I support either pay for licensed copies of software they want to use or install an Open Source alternative on Windows rather than downloading and installing trojan-ridden pirated software from the P2P networks - it really is getting to the stage, within my circle, where I am going to start refusing to fix anyone's PC where they've installed pirated software...

I also quite like Windows XP and decided from the outset I wouldn't like or want anything to do with Vista. Yet I still spent 4 hours on Boxing Day (December 26th to those not in the UK) sorting out a neighbour's new Vista laptop for wireless connectivity that turned out to be a configuration issue that would have taken minutes to resolve in XP.

So please remember that very few of us Linux people are zealots and, because we have the know-how to use Linux then we probably also know a lot about Windows & PCs in general. That in turn means a lot of inexperienced Windows users get a lot of free tech support out of us - and whilst I personally wouldn't touch Vista with a bargepole, it doesn't mean I won't help someone fix a problem with it if they ask me to.

Re:Valid yet Stupid

[DaveV1.0]

Maybe you should read the fucking article or even my comment, dumbass.

Someone like you told her she didn't need to change anything when she tried to exchange her current laptop for a Windows laptop.

This is the equivalent of one planning a meal for chicken, going to the meat market and buying what one thinks is chicken but is really tripe, finding out that one did not receive what one wanted, then going to meat market and being told that the tripe will work in place of the chicken, then having the meal ruined.

Re:Valid yet Stupid

[whisper_jeff]

"I really don't like this statement - why would a normal Linux user "want" everyone else to start using it?"

I didn't say "user" - I said "slashdotters should probably take seriously if they want people to adopt Ubuntu". Or, shortened, "slashdotters who want people to adopt Ubuntu". You obviously don't want other people to adopt Ubuntu (or another distro). Many slashdotters, however, do. So, while you may not like my statement, many slashdotters, who do want people to adopt Ubuntu, should consider the full implications of this story.

Re:Valid yet Stupid

[pandrijeczko]

Arguing the semantics between "user" and "slashdotter" does not hide the fact that you have made a very sweeping and, in my view, incorrect statement.

In my experience of Slashdot, I've actually found there are far more Windows-focused people making incorrect FUD statements about Linux than Linux people actively "selling" Linux to everyone else. Sorry, top of the list for OS zealots on here has to go to a lot of the Apple users.

Again, I really don't care what OS somebody else chooses to run but I will correct them if they make statements I think are wrong.

And I also try, where possible, to encourage people to try Open Source software on Windows rather than running virus-ridden pirated software because I quite fancy a time in the future when the Internet isn't being dragged to a slow crawl by botnets.

There is a very clear distinction here.

Re:Valid yet Stupid

[LingNoi]

It could all be fixed with a start up program with a list of help options asking you what you want to do.

What do you want to do?
A- I want to connect to the internet
-- Do you have a router, a usb dsl box, a modem or a mobile phone
-- A- Router
----Please plug the cable from the router into the back of your computer

If I remember correctly I am sure windows used to have something similar to this on 95 or 98.

99% of the weird things please want to do such as connect usb DSL modems could be scripted and wrapped around a nice graphical front end.

It's all about presentation, most users can get along with the current settings and windows fine, however not everyone is the same and some users need more hand holding then others.

These other users want options presented to them, "I want to install new software". Let them click the option then have the mouse cursor automatically click on Applications -> Add/Remove Software

For an example of the kind of program I had in mind think http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=Ubuntu

Re:Valid yet Stupid

[whisper_jeff]

Did you even read my reply?

_WHO WANT PEOPLE TO ADOPT UBUNTU_

User/slashdotter matters not. Select whichever word you want but the "who want people to adopt Ubuntu" is the important part. Try reading an entire post before replying.

Re:Valid yet Stupid

[jimicus]

You know, you really don't win friends and influence people by calling random people dumbasses.

If the meal's ruined (which, for the sake of argument, we'll say it was), do you:

A: Continue to starve?
B: Find something else to eat?

============

If, despite all the assurances of the supplier, you are unable to do your college course because of the operating system on your PC, do you:

A: Change the operating system. Cost: about US$100, possibly a bit more if you need to pay someone to install it for you. Time: A few hours.

B: Complain to the vendor and demand a laptop running Windows. Cost: If you can get someone to actually accept the RMA, free. Or at most the cost of shipping the laptop back. Time: A few days while it's turned around. Note: If you choose this option and it doesn't work out for whatever reason, you have not eliminated A. The article suggests that this is exactly what happened.

Let us assume (again for the sake of argument) that you know so little about computers you are unaware that option A is even physically possible and the vendor's technical support has not explained this. Let us also assume that you don't have a great deal of money left for a replacement laptop. This leaves another couple of options:

C: Buy a cheap & cheerful laptop which ships with Windows.
D: Sell the laptop you've just bought and put the money towards a slightly less cheap and cheerful laptop.

However, this lady chose E:

E: Drop out of the college course altogether. Cost: Potentially a great deal in lost earnings, any fees which you've already paid will probably not be refundable. Time: At least until the next round of enrolment, which could easily be a year.

Putting aside the issue of how appropriate or not any given operating system was to her, I really cannot see any argument in which option E makes any sense. If you can give a reasoned, cogent argument which does, I'd love to hear it.

Re:Valid yet Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a lie. Verizon techs install a router when you get their service. Its default config is DHCP as is Ubuntu's. They would have connected an eth cable from their router to the PC and the network would have just worked. They would have then logged on to a special Verizon page and set up some account where you set your password if you want to use their email. There's no way they would have dropped of the router and left. It's hard enough telling them not to touch anything and let one do it themselves.

Re:Valid yet Stupid

[DaveV1.0]

I do not care to win you as a friend nor flatter you to influence you. If you wish to behave like a dumbass, I will call you a dumbass.

Now, dumbass, she did B and they told her " Sorry, it is too late to do that." And, as she didn't know when she would actually be able to take the on-line courses, it is reasonable for her to drop them until she does in fact know.

As for your other options:
A) Assumes she has the money and skill to do so.
C) Also assumes she has the money to buy yet another computer.
D) And, lose half or more of the money she spent on the laptop which may not cover the cost of another laptop thus requiring her to spend even more money.

Glad to see you have so much money to burn. Perhaps you should offer to buy her laptop for $1100. Then you would have a slightly used Ubuntu laptop and she could get what she needs and wants.

Now, why is it you abandoned your little analogy? Is it that it was overly simplistic and biased to your opinion and completely failed to reflect the situation?

Re:Valid yet Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, honestly, I think the poor girl probably was clicking through all of the options and found that by clicking Ubuntu, the overall price went down. Not knowing what Ubuntu is, she probably was like, "Awesome, I'm saving money!" Later, she finds out that she made a mistake and that her new computer is not coming with Windows plus some awesome software called Ubuntu (what could it possibly be?!?!?!?), it is just coming with Ubuntu. While she did make a mistake, she called Dell and admitted her mistake. I don't think she BLAMED Dell. I think she just wanted them to help her out. There was no good reason for Dell not to help her. There is a such thing as consumer good will. Dell should have worked a little harder to work with her and create a customer relationship.

I'm with you...

[tjstork]

If she can't figure out how to type a document in any kind of computer, quickly, and get it out the door, then, really, what kind of college material is she really.

I mean, its one thing to coddle to the masses, but the buck should stop when it comes to a degree. A degree should mean that you are not stupid, and in her case, it probably won't.

Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

This is old news.
It's been on 4chan since yesterday morning.

Dell did us a public service

[MikeRT]

This chick obviously had no business being in college for several good reasons:

1) She couldn't even see fit to double or triple check a $1,100 order for a laptop to make sure it was what she wanted. For most of us, that's blatant financial irresponsibility.

2) She didn't have the wherewithal to get someone to put Windows on for her when she realized she just couldn't handle Ubuntu. Again, a sign of irresponsibility. Arguing that her ignorance, not laziness, was a factor here is like arguing that someone with car problems doesn't deserve criticism for not seeking out a mechanic.

3) She canceled 2 semesters of college over this.

I'd say Dell probably saved the tax payers money, since she'd probably end up as some 6 year Art History major whose "education" is funded by tax payers. Hopefully no business will hire her for any important job either, since she is precisely the opposite of what most businesses mean when they say they want a "self-starter."

Re:Dell did us a public service

[DaveV1.0]

1) For most users, there is only Windows. They have never heard of Ubuntu or Linux. They would not think to look that their laptop has Windows on it because, for them, that is all there is. You forget that the "us" you refer to is a very small minority of the population.

2)She had the "wherewithal" to call Dell and try to exchange the laptop for a Windows laptop. And a Linux/Ubuntu fanboy, much like yourself, convinced her she didn't need to because "Ubuntu was great, college students loved it, it was compatible with everything I needed". Your analogy fails because under said analogy, she went to the mechanic who told her everything was fine and not to worry about it.

3)If it has taken her several months to get to this point and she needs the laptop to take the on-line course and can't afford to buy another one or to buy Windows to put on this one, it makes sense that she cancel her classes until she can in fact attend them.

I would say you are an arrogant asshole for assuming that everyone is a technical expert who knows about Linux and assuming she is incompetent because she trusted customer support at the place she bought the computer from. I can only hope that you are fired from your job for being an asshole, so no one ever has to deal with your sorry ass.

Re:Dell did us a public service

[theredshoes]

I agree with you on some of your points, but c'mon give the woman a break. Her mindset in dealing with computers is narrow. If you are not extremely computer savvy, and you have only been exposed to Windows, that is what you are going to feel most comfortable going with, LOL

Most users want to pop in a CD or log in easily, etc, send their assignments quickly. Which you can do with Linux I am assuming probably fairly easily, you just have to get used to it, installing a distro is not for the faint hearted, partitioning disks, I am too afraid to do a dual boot, because I do not want to screw up my new Dell. I don't have an old laptop to practice on either. Linux seems to be for people that like to tinker.

I do not have hardly any Linux exposure except downloading a few freebie programs because I was too cheap to pay for the software. Honestly if you want more people to adopt Linux, start with that, people will get hooked with the free software, and then maybe think of adopting Linux as their OS. Just my opinion.

Also when you are starting an online program and you have never been in an online learning enviroment, you will have to grasp the way to use Blackboard or Angel or whatever the school uses effectively but getting your feet wet with one class with the level of what her current computer skills are at now.

Most people do not have the curiousity that would entail them to learn another OS. I just bought a Dell with Vista on it. I didn't buy MS Office because OO works perfectly fine and the docs can be saved in a Windows format. I might use a portable disc if I decided to use Linux, but it would never be my main OS because I am not partitioning my hard disk.

I am sure my opinion on this subject will be in the minority, but it is a woman's perspective. I also thought the person who said she should not be at a technical college at her age was extremely insulting, you can learn a lot about computers if you sleep, eat and breath it for a year and be up to speed, hell it changes so quickly anyway. But hey, you are right she is not a "self starter" or Nancy Drew. Maybe technical college will turn her into one, LOL

Re:Dell did us a public service

[LingNoi]

Your analogy fails because under said analogy, she went to the mechanic who told her everything was fine and not to worry about it.

and this is where your analogy fails because there was nothing wrong with her computer. You're going under the general assumption that something is wrong or fails to complete the tasks she needs it to do.

By reading the article you'll see that she is happily using her new ubuntu machine now she knows how it works.

Re:Dell did us a public service

[DaveV1.0]

Actually, the article does not say that. Perhaps you should stop lying about the contents of the article.

Re:Dell did us a public service

[HermMunster]

You are attempting to use the fact that someone likes Linux as a negative thing. That's sad. Not only that you have no idea how things transpired or how she actually wound up with an ubuntu laptop.

Finally, most people now have heard of Linux. Its just that they don't know how to utilize it nor why they would as they seem to get Windows for free (or rather they already paid for it).

No evidence exists that she didn't actually order Ubuntu even if the reports state she didn't. We don't know her thought process nor who inspired her to order the ubuntu version.

Please, in the future, keep your bias and biggotry to yourself. Just because someone likes Linux doesn't mean they are bad nor that fanboism is wrong.

If someone were to talk to you in the same light about cars would you be so insulting and demeaning of them and their delights? If you did they'd probably beat you up.

Re:Dell did us a public service

[DaveV1.0]

You mean like the bias and bigotry of the linux fanboys, yourself included, have shown both towards people who use Windows, and people like this girl?

Oh, wait, that is ok because it is YOU.... I forgot how you people are hypocrites.

Now, shove your opinion up your ass to keep your head company, shit head.

Re:Dell did us a public service

[Anonymous Coward]

"and this is where your analogy fails because there was nothing wrong with her computer. "

IF (assuming this is the case) she had ordered a Windows computer and instead received an Ubuntu computer, then yes there most definitely is something wrong with the computer! It isnt what she ordered. If she had instead received a brand spanking new Macbook Pro 17" then it still isn't what she ordered and she is well within her rights to want it exchanged. Personally I have used many OS'es from several *nix'es through Winblows, but if I had ordered a Win laptop and received instead a Linux box I most certainly would be sending it back 'cause it aint what I fucking ordered. I wouldn't care what the guy at the other end thought was good for me - I want what I asked for, not what someone else thinks is good for me.

Re:Dell did us a public service

[iminplaya]

Now, shove your opinion up your ass to keep your head company, shit head.

Marry me

Interesting surprise response from Verizon!

[erroneus]

Verizon dispatched a tech to get her connected without Windows? That is pretty nice!!!

There is plenty of room for Linux bashing where non-techs are concerned. They expect to buy things and expect them to work. Only Apple users are smart enough to look for the Apple logo to ensure what they buy is compatible. Everyone else makes assumptions.

But Verizon taking these steps to get this woman online is pretty amazing. It could actually turn the negative Linux experience into a positive one. Once she gets online and learns to use OpenOffice.org, she will be able to get her things done AND be free of malware and crap like that.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

How does she Google something if she doesn't even have (the ability to use) her internet access? Most hardware devices come with a driver disc. It is fully understandable that she would believe that her Verizon disc was necessary to connect.

Contrary to what you might believe, not everyone has the time and/or technical knowledge and/or desire to learn about behind-the-scenes workings of their operating system. They just need it to work. That is where both Windows and Mac OS come in because Linux is far from the "just works" stage as demonstrated in this article.

THINK before you post.

Mod parent up

[ProteusQ]

This girl is either a failure and content to be so ("Look at all the things I can't do!!") or a shill for M$. As for the press... well, there's a reason we call them the drive-by media.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Soruk]

A few google searches by her...

How would she do that if she doesn't know how to connect?

This Just In!

[trum4n]

Slashdot user claims not all users are smart enough for Linux.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[gblackwo]

Yes, you are dead on right. I work with the same people. I take back some of my assumptions made.

I will accept the fact that she knows little to nothing about computers, and at this point, I see nothing but holes in the story.

Why was it she had to drop both the fall and spring semesters?
Did she contact anyone to help her with her problem besides the also computer illiterate news crew?
Is it really that much user friendlier to set up her internet on windows?- I guess probably and unfortunately.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

So, does IP-over-smoke-signals work? I've used Ubuntu (afrikaanz for 'I'm too stupid to use Slackware') and never seen the smoke-signal-networking configuration GUI. I haven't even seen the RFC for smoke-signal networking yet, but I assume that is what you think she is using to connect to the internet and do these so called "few google searches."

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[spicyed]

People with out any knowledge of computers will believe anything they're told. Which is why this woman was talked into Ubuntu, as well as why she thought she needed the disc. Verizon says you NEED it.

Details?

[jim0203]

Has anyone been able to clarify precisely why she couldn't connect to her ISP? Or what feature of MS Word she needed that wasn't available in OpenOffice? I agree that this story sounds pretty funny, but this lady could be trying to use an unsupported USB modem to connect to DSL. There might be some similar niggle with Word files being provided by her college. Neither of these things is the fault of Ubuntu or Linux, but nor is it the fault of a non-techy end user.

Re:Details?

[yuna49]

None of the above.

She bought a computer and expected it to work with the CD Verizon supplied and to have MS Word installed. That probably makes her no different than the vast majority of ordinary computer users out there. It wasn't that she had an unsupported modem or needed to use some obscure feature of MS Word. She wanted a computer that looked like every computer she and her friends had seen and used for years. She didn't get that computer and was upset. I'm not surprised.

Re:Details?

[jim0203]

Me neither. I've come across this problem before - I teach people with disabilities basic IT skills, for a charity. We don't have much money so I sometimes use refurbished kit running Ubuntu. This usually works absolutely fine; the biggest problem is when another family member sees Ubuntu, gets confused, and tells my student that their computer is "wrong". I don't quite know where I stand on this. When I'm feeling charitable, I think it's just a problem of education. When I'm feeling less charitable, the attitude some people have towards Linux - "different" = "bad" - seems a little too close to some pretty nasty aspects of humanity. Not everyone with this lady's limited experience would have reacted like she did. Dell didn't help, but I'm guessing she was pretty closed-minded from the start.

Come on now

[Iagi]

It's easy to say something funny like ... I buy Nike shoes way too small to fit my feet. Claim Nike stopped me from going to work. Profit! What bothers me the most about the story is that the computer was more than equipped to do the job, she wasn't. There is plenty of information on how to use Ubuntu. Hell, there was probably a Ubuntu user group on campus. Did she ask Dell or the college's tech support how to hook it to the Internet? If all she wanted was to have Windows on it then she should have bought one that way. I'm sure that when she purchased it Dell did not hide the fact that it had Ubuntu on it. This is not a linux problem.

Re:Come on now

[DaveV1.0]

It is a Linux problem because Linux is not ready for the average user's laptop/desktop.
It is a Linux problem because a fanboy like you convinced her Ubuntu was better than Windows and would do everything Windows would when she called to exchange her laptop for a Windows laptop.

Maybe next time you should RTFA.

Re:Come on now

[egcagrac0]

Windows isn't ready for the desktop, either. It's just easier to find support.

Re:Come on now

[jbolden]

Now you have made a claim here that Ubuntu does not meet her needs. Not that it doesn't allow her to do things "her way" but that it can't in fact do what she wants.

So what specifically doesn't it do?

Re:Come on now

[soleblaze]

Linux will never be considered ready for the average user's laptop/desktop because it's not Windows. It doesn't have programs called Internet Explorer or Microsoft Office. The average user has a wide variety of reasons for not learning to actually use a computer, instead preferring to learn to use a strict set of programs. People in general don't like change and don't enjoy learning new things that aren't in their sphere of interests. (Geeks in general have a much wider range of things that they find interesting than the average person)

I'm also wondering if she really got a Dell fanboy, or if Dell is giving this line their phone people to try to avoid having to exchange a computer.

Re:Come on now

[LingNoi]

I'm also wondering if she really got a Dell fanboy, or if Dell is giving this line their phone people to try to avoid having to exchange a computer.

It's probably neither (we'll never know the real story).

My opinion is the phone call probably went like this..

[Abbie] Hi, my computer is wrong
[Dell] What is wrong with it?
[Abbie] It doesn't have windows which I need to open word documents and use the internet
[Dell] It does those things
[Abbie] um, ok, thanks bye.

Sounds like classic communication problem to me. I'm sure if she pushed for it Dell would have replaced it, however it sounds more like she was willing to give it another shot after whatever Dell told her.

WTF!?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Trolls have been posting this article since it hit. We've discussed it more than once in the last 24 hours. Now it's front page news!?!

What the hell is going on!?!

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[yakmans_dad]

Apparently, there's a lot of people who want to confirm that knowledge of computer technology is evidence of having Aspberger's Syndrome.

It's a plant

[Anonymous Coward]

1) You can't "accidentally" find an Ubuntu Dell.

2) Dell support would NEVER say "you don't want windows, Ubuntu works better for you".

3) She took FIVE MONTHS to complain

It's a fake.

Re:It's a plant

[jellomizer]

You have never dealt with Dell Before have you.

Dell does make shipping mistakes giving the wrong computer to the wrong person.

Or when ordering you could go I don't want Vista, what else would work with my PC. (Some new PCs do not run XP well, but runs Linux OK)

Dell may not say that but the guy at the other end of the line might, If he is Linux Zealot and cant bare to watch someone switch back, he personally may pressure her to stay with Linux.

5 Months is quite possible if it really isn't that high on your priority. Call tech support they give you a vague response. Mess with it a little once a week. Get fed up and call again after a month or so. Some people do try and hate calling tech support especially if they were rude to them.

Nothing seems that far out of reality.

Re:It's a plant

[novafluxx]

you think she would have noticed during the return/exchange period Dell as when you buy a system directly from Dell. You have time after you buy it to return it, no questions asked. Just call the customer care department! Waiting for 5 months, THEN complaining, that's her own stupidity.

Re:It's a plant

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course.
For all that to happen, it would require the possibility that people can be incredibly stupid and..er..

Probably real now that I think about it.

Re:It's a plant

[BarryJacobsen]

1) You can't "accidentally" find an Ubuntu Dell.

2) Dell support would NEVER say "you don't want windows, Ubuntu works better for you".

3) She took FIVE MONTHS to complain

It's a fake.

It's not so much a fake as a woman rationalizing her decision to drop out of college - "It's not my fault I couldn't make it, I got a bad computer!"

Re:It's a plant

[Anonymous Coward]

agreed. Windows-free systems are rather tough to find from dell.
Also, I would imagine from the two times I've had to call dell from work that if I told them I was running "ubuntu" or any of the other distros they'd call me stupid and do their best to make a buck selling me windows vista...

Re:It's a plant

[Anonymous Coward]

+1

Re:It's a plant

[ThePhilips]

It's a fake.

Actually I'm surprised that no M$ conspiracy theories were yet thrown in.

What is actually plausible: some M$ partner (e.g. same guys who supplies M$Windows/Office to her school) might wanted to FUD about Linux and just inflamed the story.

Re:It's a plant

[piltdownman84]

It's a fake.

Either that or its just an excuse. Her parents might have asked why she wasn't in school, and the computer worked as a convenient excuse to cover that she was just a lazy slag.

Re:It's a plant

[prelelat]

the other thing that confuses me is that she said that if she changed the OS it would void her warranty I used to work at Dell and unless they seriously changed their policies in the last 2 years since I quit I would say bullshit. When I was there they expected the user to open the machine and poke things at times. They also had them do OS reinstalls all the time. It doesn't make sense unless she had some kind of ubunutu support with her warranty contract that they wouldn't honour. It either sounds like the Dell rep screwed up more than once(possible from the people I knew on the phones) or she didn't understand or was too angry to listen.

Re:It's a plant

[rawg]

I'm sorry I killed those five people when I drove over them in my car. I didn't know how to stop, I've never drove a manual transmission. I have only drove automatic transmissions.

Re:It's a plant

[Anonymous Coward]

1) You can't "accidentally" find an Ubuntu Dell.

Well... you can!

2) Dell support would NEVER say "you don't want windows, Ubuntu works better for you".

In general, yes, they could. It's the truth. But if they knew her, probably not.

3) She took FIVE MONTHS to complain

Quite possible. For example, it could have taken her five month to locate the power button.

Re:It's a plant

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, forget about it. A user is experiencing the exact kind of problems that anyone paying attention to technology and users in general would expect to happen, clearly it's a fake. Let's ignore the possibility that The Linux Experience(tm) might be flawed in any way and blame Microsoft instead. Surely that is the way forward for us.

FWIW, the last time my mom called me on the phone and asked how she does something between Word and Outlook, and I told her I use neither, she was silent for several seconds while the possibility that alternatives even exist sunk in. Normal computer uses (i.e., "normal" non-technical people, who also use computers) are simply unaware of the possibilities that exist. Maybe the fact that I've seen commercials on TV for MS Office for the past decade, and I've never seen one for any OS software at all may indicate where some of the problems are. Maybe who ever is responsible for the Open Office project will have an epiphany one day and move some money into advertising.

Good god, what am I saying? Obviously this is MS FUD, in fact I'm probably being paid by MS right now and don't even know it!

Re:It's a plant

[Anonymous Coward]

You can accidentally find an Ubuntu Dell if all you're looking at is the price tag. I know I have.

Re:It's a plant

[mahadiga]

It's a fake.

I think it's not fake. It is frustration.
Most of the company websites advertise "The site is best viewed in Internet Explorer." http://toastytech.com/evil/onlyie.html
Now please don't tell me install Wine + IE. It is a pain in the ass.

Re:It's a plant

[Anonymous Coward]

I second that.

Most Dell computers are offered Windows only. Few Ubuntu machines in sight. Dell are all hype and bull when it comes to Linux.

In addition, each time I have purchased a Dell I have claimed the cost of the Windows back and while they have paid up each time, sometime after a few threats of court action, it seems obvious that rather than Microsoft loosing a sale, Dell were instead simply taking the loss themselves to keep both Microsoft and customer sweet. I would never buy another computer from them.

Re:It's a plant

[Anonymous Coward]

"1) You can't "accidentally" find an Ubuntu Dell."

1.) I went to the Dell website homepage.
2.) Clicked on the Home>Laptops category
3.) Clicked on that nice big banner

First result???
Inspiron Mini 9 Ubuntu Linux
Intel® Atom Processor® N270 (1.6GHz/533Mhz FSB/512K cache)
Ubuntu Linux version 8.04.1
1GB DDR2 at 533MHz
4GB Solid State Drive

It seems pretty easy to do with two clicks and entering no text.

Re:It's a plant

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not American so I'm not familiar with your welfare system. But might she have been receiving money that depended on her attending college?

That could happen in the UK and it would explain her desperate attempts to explain why she didn't go to college.

Re:It's a plant

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, in regards to this being a fake...
          1) I can't imagine someone would go so far as call a newspaper, without coming across someone who can say "Yes OpenOffice handles Word file" (Which she apparently does know now.)

          2) Verizon. A perhaps more legitimate concern, but it is as easy (in Ubuntu 8.04) as setting it to dial up #777, and the username and password that Dell gives you in the paperwork. (@vzw3g.com username, password vzw ... this is not insecure, btw, since the air card is basically a cell phone without speaker and mic, all the cellular-phone-style authentication is done as well, someone else can't use their card with your username and password.) Of course getting online is a catch-22, but if she had she would have found this on ubuntuforums in less than 5 minutes, or just googling for it. Ubuntu 8.10 is supposed to handle aircards out of the box. Unforunately, though, the card does have to be activated first, I think I ended up having them do it at the store. And you can't do PRL (preferred roaming list) updates, which is not good... but if she's using it for school she will not be roaming so it wouldn't matter.

          Shame on wkow for the tone of the original report (from what I've heard.. I haven't seen it) and for updating it without much indication that there was a substantially different original. (I saw an article about BBC doing this too though, so they are not alone.) Kudos for a more balanced second article.

          It would be VERY amusing to come up with a mirror article... "I bought a new low-end laptop with vista. First it's slow, they expect me to buy a second GB of RAM just to make my system work! My old printer and scanner don't even work, I called the company and they were like 'that stuff's out of warranty and obsolete, we did not make vista drivers for it.' I regret going with windows on this thing!"

          For real though, one of Ubuntu's BIG strengths is since Linuxes in general don't tend to drop hardware support once they have it, you can plug an Ubuntu system into like any printer and scanner (among other things) and have it just work. I have an Epson Perfection 636U right now (drivers up through Win2000, I have never hooked i up to a windows box though), works out of the box. Before that? A parallel port scanner I got free because it only had 98 drivers and they were going to 2000 or XP on their system. Plugged it in, it worked out of the box... (it scanned pretty slow if I put the computer under load though.) Printers? USB and newer parallel printers are autodetected (I'm sure in one case I didn't even have to go to "Add printers", Ubuntu just told me it was ready to print...) Older ones you pick the make and model off the list. There's a button that pretty well automates finding network printers too (plus options to do it manually for network printers that need it.) No drivers to get in most cases. In the odd case where it DOES need an extra package, it'll pop up a box where you click "next" and it gets it.

Re:It's a plant

[Anonymous Coward]

The photo also shows Ubuntu 7.10, that means she would have had to have bought the computer last year, before 8.04 came out.

Darwin is right

[the_tommes]

Well, she could not get online to get tuition to get the knowledge to be able to figure out how to get online. She's doomed due to natural selection. God spoke through Ubuntu.

and 70 is less than 100

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like you're below the mainstream too.

Back to school

[Grashnak]

If you're this stupid, then you should go back to school. May I suggest 3rd grade?

In Summary

[Ngarrang]

1. The consumer did not read before clicking.

2. The Dell support script the tech was reading from did not take into account badly implemented on-line college courses that require IE, Outlook and Word.

What can we learn from this?

1. LEARN TO READ!

2. Improve the support script, since we know Dell won't actually pay money to attract smart support people that can go off-script and solve problems.

3. If you must enroll an electronic courses, read the frickin' computer requirements!

Re:In Summary

[LingNoi]

I don't see any problem with this. An ISP and college course is willing to accept her ubuntu computer.

To me that's a step forward. Yes she had problems, however because of this things have now changed to make it more accesible to other Operating Systems.

If only we had a one or two thousand Abbies things would change for everyone and not just for Abbie and these type of problems wouldn't exist.

What about business DSL and FiOS?

[tepples]

The Linux "market segment" is mostly businesses, servers, and an extremely small amount of computer geeks. Of those, Verizon needs to worry about the geeks, who know how to run Wine if they want to run Verizon's software.

And the businesses, for both DSL and FIOS. And the Mac users, whose networking acts in many ways more like FreeBSD than like Windows.

Why install anything from the ISP?

[uffe_nordholm]

I don't live in USA, and have no idea how Verizon works as an ISP, but I don't understand why "Her Verizon High-Speed Internet CD won't load..." is a problem. With my ISP I can connect to internet no matter what software I choose to use (99.X% of the time Firefox under openSuse Linux), and I see no reason why a computer with Ubuntu on it should be any different (assuming of course it has adequate hardware, but that should hardly be a problem). Could someone clarify this?

As for the online classes "requirement" of MS Word, I think she needs to get a clue. I have turned in work to my university written in OOo, but saved as a Word-file, and nobody has complained. Even when they have specified Times New Roman, and my work has been in a slightly similar font (with a completely different name) I have only had comments about the content of the work, not the presentation.

Re:Why install anything from the ISP?

[Spatial]

From what other people are saying, the CD isn't actually required and it says this in the manual. It's just a wizard which helps you input the username, password and network settings.

Re:Why install anything from the ISP?

[HermMunster]

DSL and even cable modems need to be activated to tell the ISP that it is active. I would guess this is so that they can tie an IP to that modem.

Generally you would get the DSL modem (and set it up), install filters on your phone outlets and then start your computer and run a CD which initiates the activation process. Unfortunately it also installs software on the unit that is unnecessary. Examination of it lends one to understand that the ISP is trying to brand the machine as a Verison internet box instead of a box using Verison as a service. They also use it to monitor what the customer does. What better way for marketers to target you and for Verison to get some extra money selling information about you to someone else.

They also sometimes install ridiculous software on the computer for trying to diagnose a connection issue. They'll find out more by just having you turn on and off your computer than having you have that installed. If you have one problem in 3 years you had their software running for 3 years for nothing.

Almost every day I have customers, when I tell them that the software is not necessary, say that they are surprised and thought it was necessary.

This is a lack of full disclosure on the part of Verison regarding the software, the fact that they are monitoring the customer, and what they do with the data they collect.

Is the woman in the pic the one needing help?

[daboochmeister]

Because I'll help her. I'm just saying.

Same has happened to my sister...

[Zaatxe]

But with Window Vista, instead. The class software was to blame, although...

Dell probably screwed up here

[Anonymous Coward]

Dell shouldn't be recommending linux to anyone. The people that want linux should simply ask for it. Beyond that, it shouldn't be mentioned. Most users simply are going to be lost using any version of linux. So don't create that confusion. If someone wants it, give it to them... but if they don't know then don't put it on the table to confuse them.

Re:Dell probably screwed up here

[LingNoi]

The fact that it is on the Dell website indicates that they are making money from it and that there is a demand for linux.

I think that Dell knows more about selling computers then Mr Anonymous Coward does.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[MightyYar]

Well, she clearly had the "Math class is TOUGH!" Barbie and not the "Vengence is MINE!" Barbie.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[megamerican]

Even people with Windows could run into her problems, like me.

Having Windows does not mean you have Office. Using Windows Works (their freeware version of office) caused more problems when creating .doc files than Open Office or Google Documents.

I went through college using a laptop with Windows and without Office perfectly fine. The real story here is that a college bound student can't figure out an obvious solution on her own and that a newspaper couldn't figure out her stupidity.

Linkedin

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/648/63a

moron.

potential employers, take note.

Who's to blame

[paxcoder]

I blame her school & instructors/*tions. Noone else is to blame.

PC Illiterate does not equal stupid

[fluffernutter]

Why do technogeeks feel the need to start berating someone the instant they don't know how to use a computer? Do you think surgeons sit around and insult people who can't perform heart bypass surgery? We have experience and knowledge that not all possess, and I dare say that this attitude is not only a big problem for the development of Ubuntu into a competitor for Windows but that it is a big thing for the IT industry to overcome as a whole. We whine about being underpaid for our SKILLS, yet we expect everyone else to THINK LIKE US at the same time. That's NUTS, MAN! The thing that Microsoft has always understood is that not everyone understands computers and most of them never will. If you want them to use a computer then you HAVE to COME TO THEM. Microsoft spends MILLIONS in R&D making their OS work for these people. Until the Linux world comes to terms with this, it will never ever be in a position to overtake Windows. REALITY TIME HERE FOLKS... This woman is the AVERAGE USER that Ubuntu or any other distribution WANTS.

Re:PC Illiterate does not equal stupid

[mathletics]

It's not the inability to use a computer that makes her stupid. It's the complete lack of problem solving skills.

Re:PC Illiterate does not equal stupid

[pandrijeczko]

Why do technogeeks feel the need to start berating someone the instant they don't know how to use a computer?

We don't. Just like the man who came to lay my driveway today didn't laugh at me because I couldn't do it. Don't tar us all with the same brush - some of us remember starting off with zero knowledge and having to ask questions of others.

But there's a distinct difference in asking for help & not even trying to find out the basics for yourself first.

We whine about being underpaid for our SKILLS, yet we expect everyone else to THINK LIKE US at the same time.

Not me, my friend. I'm happy with the pay I get & the job I do. I mean, I get to do my computing "hobby" as work - how cool is that?

The thing that Microsoft has always understood is that not everyone understands computers and most of them never will.

Rubbish. Microsoft is very good at taking other peoples' ideas and making money from them.

How long does a Windows PC *survive* in the hands of somebody with zero knowledge & zero administration? How many people just go buy a new PC when their old one slows down?

I like Linux, I quite like XP and I have both running on my home PCs without any real problems. But they *both* take equal adminstration time - on XP running virus checkers and anti-spyware tools, applying updates, defragging hard disks... yes, it's par for the course with Windows to keep it running smoothly and I'm not complaining; but it is still very time-consuming and needs some idea about what you're doing.

Re:PC Illiterate does not equal stupid

[DaveV1.0]

Yes, because listening to and trusting a supposed expert who's job is to make sure you are happy is always the wrong thing to do and shows a complete lack of problem solving skills.

Or, is it that in your world, "problem solving skills" is code for having the time and wanting to learn about a server-centric operating system that one has never heard of?

Re:PC Illiterate does not equal stupid

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

There is a difference between being computer illiterate, and being willfully computer illiterate. This woman is in the second category. Yes, she didn't figure out here problem. But the sad reality is that she did not even try.

Re:PC Illiterate does not equal stupid

[fluffernutter]

Well unfortunately for Linux, that is where MS has set the bar. You don't really need to know much to run windows. Linux has to either meet this bar and retain it's undoubtedly superior core or be happy with servers and the computer-savvy. People take the perceived path of least resistance.. that is our nature.

Re:PC Illiterate does not equal stupid

[burning-toast]

Your analogy of open heart surgery would hold true if technologists expected her to do something as intricate as diagnosing BIOS error codes with a hexadecimal readout and then soldiering a couple of leads together on the mainboard to correct a clock shift error in the timing circuitry due to a shady voltage regulator. No one expects the users to understand anything close to that.

This was something more akin to her getting confused by the ruler being in centimeters on the hole punch on her desk when she needed to know inches. The Hole-Punch vendor told her she could still use the metric ruler for the same effect (but failed to teach her the metric system), and the people who wanted the holes punched in the first place told her they already gave her the right measurements and didn't know what she was talking about. And instead of finding out how to fix that issue by using a simple converter she quit her job and bitched to the media about the metric travesty which just took place on her desk. Those of us who understand the simple matter of conversion then are left in awe over the sheer stupidity of the matter.

She is a case of social engineering or fraud just waiting to happen. Unfortunately, that cannot really be anybody's fault but hers. The information she needed to know before she even ventured into computerland is readily available in thousands of forms. You can even buy it through infomercials or leech it off of friends for free. People which are still WILLFULLY ignorant to computer basics get no sympathy from me.

- Toast

P.S. The number of operating systems on the market since personal computers became common place has never been reduced to 1. Microsoft may have had the largest market share RECENTLY but there has always been other ones around like Macintosh, DOS, Amiga, Linux, BSD Unix, etc. Don't excuse the attitude people take with thinking there is only one option they even need to know the name of (15 years ago Microsoft wasn't even the most dominant in most areas and in 15 years probably will not be the dominant player once again). Remember, Mac was the dominant player long before Microsoft entered the personal computing scene as a serious player, it's best that users never become complacent and think that Microsoft is the only thing they will ever need to know.

Re:PC Illiterate does not equal stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you. This is one of the few intelligent responses I've read. I too am an IT professional and the reality is, the vast majority of computer users do not know more than the basics (world wide web, email, msword). to expect a novice to somehow know how to configure ubuntu, and to somehow know about openoffice, etc and then to make fun of them for not knowing how to do that is absurd.

Often I have to remind friends of mine not to purchase anything computer related without running it by me first to prevent things like this from happening to them. What people expect is for them to buy a computer and for things to just work, just like your car just works. You don't need to know how to rebuild an engine to drive a car, and you shouldn't need to know how to build a PC to use one. Unfortunately many in our field forget that, which is why many people look at IT professionals as oddballs.

The responses I've read has only proven right the individuals that stereotype IT professionals. This woman is not an idiot, she is your typical computer user and consumer. The amount of condescending posts is appalling yet not unexpected.

Re:PC Illiterate does not equal stupid

[meson2439]

Surgueons are insulting to people who tried to perform heart bypass surgery on their own. Heck, surgeons would recommend that you be sent to jail or a mental institutions. Although, I agree that Idiots should stick with idiot software and even pay for it.

Re:PC Illiterate does not equal stupid

[mathletics]

She could have called Verizon and said "I have a Dell computer with Ubuntu and cannot use my Verizon DSL CD. How can I get online?" When the Dell rep told her that she can do everything she needs to do on this computer (ie, create Word docs), she could have asked "How do I do that?" She did neither (correct me if I'm wrong; I read the article yesterday), and instead called the local media to whine about it. She followed the advice of the "expert" but failed to ask how; that's a lack of problem solving skills, IMO.

FUD

[jsimon12]

I am a little disappointed this was given the greenlight as it is simply FUD and/or a Microsoft viral marketing ad.

The woman claims she had to drop the semester because she couldn't get on the Internet, which has to be a complete cop out. Since as a student she could just very cheaply buy the Windows OS she needed or just use the computers in the computer lab at her school.

Re:FUD

[crhylove]

It's important though for us FOSS advocates to be made continuously aware of THE REAL WORLD, so we can solve these little issues and continue to grow and infiltrate the market.

The problem is the school. They should require Open Office, not MS Office. But yeah, the girl is obviously a tard.

Re:FUD

[HermMunster]

I agree.

But...

She would have had great difficulty getting on the net after installing Windows. That'd be because she'd have had to seek out and install the drivers for the components.

Many people here don't understand that a base install of Widows almost always lacks 1 to ALL the drivers necessary to do much of anything. Generally a CD install of Windows results in generic drivers for video (and usually a successful USB series) and everything else, such as sound, video, network, wireless, and chipset are missing. Buying the CD would have resulted in a net loss for her. Though, she may have managed to get that CD to run to get her DSL modem active.

This is different than Linux as Linux generally has ALL drivers or just lacks 1 (generally good wireless support). Linux, over the years has had to fend for itself and the end result is that it has more driver support in the kernel than any other OS in the history of computing (including Microsoft and Apple). This is due to the hardware manufacturers falling for Microsoft's coercion. As a result entities such as NASA and IBM have worked for years, as well as Linus Torvald's team working hard to consolidate driver functions. Now a days when someone says "they installed it and it just worked" it means something.

Also, her courses were over the net. That's becoming popular as Universities can now target students from a lot farther a way. But it also means that the Professors are less likely to actually care about the students.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[sxltrex]

She dropped out of school because she couldn't figure out how to make her computer work.

Dude, it's even better than that. She dropped out of technical college because she couldn't figure out how to make her computer work.

Ubuntu bites woman

[Anonymous Coward]

Granted Linux is cast in a bad light, and the overall techno-scornful reaction is not funny (I like hyphens), but when have we ever seen someone write about Microsoft Word destroying a 110 page thesis, or thrashing a floppy disk to death? How about Powerpoint crashing and taking hours of work with it, or not starting no matter how many times you click the icon?
People have ACCEPTED that bad behavior from their computers is normal, so no one makes a big deal of it.
The true take away is that this person EXPECTED the computer and software to be at fault.
We should really make the effort to cast this as a beautiful, shining moment of transition when people start to realize that they can expect better things from their Silicone companions *wipes away tear*
Remember where you were when you read this story, one day you will be able to tell your offspring, clone, or robo-buddy that you were a witness to The Change

Maybe Online courses are not for you...

[DarthVain]

I am sorry, but I don't feel a whole lot of sympathy for her.

It is somehow the OS's fault that she can't take online courses?

No it is her fault. Take fucking responsibility for your actions and stop trying to foist it onto everybody but yourself. Geez.

Driving a manual with two limbs?

[tepples]

manual transmissions have better performance and are not hard to learn

Not for everyone. Someone who uses hand controls needs one hand to work the steering wheel and the other to work the throttle and brake.

Car metaphor!

[mcsqueak]

Ubuntu kept this women from her online classes the same way trying to fill a petrol car with diesel would keep someone else from attending a normal lecture... USER ERROR.

Re:Car metaphor!

[mcsqueak]

Ok, now I'm responding to my own post... bad user!

Is petrol the same as diesel? Maybe I should have stuck with using "gasoline".

Re:Car metaphor!

[Sobrique]

No, petrol and diesel are different substances, and as you indicate in your original post, filling a car with the wrong one will result in a vehicle going nowhere.

One way around actively screws your car up, the other just requires draining/refilling. I can't remember which way around it is, but neither's going to go anywhere :)

Re:Car metaphor!

[DaveV1.0]

You left out the parts where:

She asked the mechanic to drain the tank and put in gasoline/petrol and was told she didn't need to do so.
She drove off and her engine died.
She found out her engine was ruined.

Re:Car metaphor!

[jimicus]

Petrol in a diesel screws your car up - the diesel is also a lubricant for many important components and the petrol strips it away. If you notice before you start the engine, however, you might be OK. But it'll have to be drained and refuelled.

Diesel in a petrol car results in thick smoke out of the exhaust and isn't something you want to make a habit of, but shouldn't seriously screw it up. Ideally you'd still want to drain and refuel (and in some countries you'll be stopped because your car is spewing out thick smoke - certainly in the UK) but it won't kill it.

Re:Car metaphor!

[Cramer]

I was thinking the same thing... gas vs. diesel. In the US, cars and pumps are specifically setup to prevent pumping gas into a diesel car -- the nozzle on the gas pump is larger than the restrictor plate on the diesel car. However, that's only on cars. Industrial equipment doesn't have those. I've watched what happens when an idiot puts gas in a diesel tractor... and the swarm of mechanics decending on it to cut it off before it explodes. Next to the gas pumps.

Putting gas in a diesel will destroy the engine -- in a very fantastic boom... it'll rev unlimited until the engine flys apart (or it burns all the fuel, but it won't last that long.) Putting diesel in a gas car will make a mess, but is unlikely to "destroy" anything -- it'll clog filters and injectors, and foul a bunch of sensors, but that's all fixable... replace the filters, and clean everything else. But, yes, both are expensive mistakes.

Re:Car metaphor!

[thetoadwarrior]

petrol != diesel

But you can have petrodiesel which is a mix.

Re:Car metaphor!

[LingNoi]

Dave you seem to keep perpetuating throughout this article as though it's a fact that Ubuntu ruined her life or something.

However if you RTFA you'd know that she is using ubuntu fine. It's simply a case of having to learn something new and being so frustrated that she contacted the news about it.

Re:Car metaphor!

[mcsqueak]

Ah, good to know. I suddenly couldn't recall if they were the same or not. That's what I get for being a dumb yank trying to use them fancy English words. ;)

I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[HockeyPuck]

I'm sick of the linux communities' attitude that she should have known linux was "internet capable" right out of the box; or that she could have opened up a document in OpenOffice. I think the community forgets that for the majority of internet users, they started out by getting a CD in the mail (AOL/Compuserve/Prodigy/Earthlink/Mindspring whatever) and that launched an application which had an integrated browser/email/news/stocks client. So she treated her internet access like a black box; big deal. Most people treat their cars like black boxes as well.

Someone handed her a Microsoft Word document; why should we blame her if she looked on her computer and *GASP* didn't see Microsoft Word. Is it possible that just maybe, he classes said as a requirement you needed MSWord for the class materials? Maybe there are spreadsheets that are handed out that have tons of formulas and macros in them; is the instructor going to worry about OO macro compatibility. No, and neither should she.

Dell should be ashamed for not allowing her computer to be returned, but the linux community should be ashamed as well. For assuming that all computer users are part IT Staff. Maybe we should expect the average /. user to be able to sit down at a 3270 terminal and configure the IOCDS or perform a datamigration with DFSMS on my zSeries. I mean, it's just a computer right, it must run rsync....

Just like with cars, some people are mechanics, some people just change oil and filters and others just drive the car. It's a shame the linux community can't understand the same thing about computers.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[the_tommes]

Intelligence is defined as the ability to learn and understand. My father always said, you can be dumb as long as you know what to do...

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[pfarber]

The problem is that she's trying to get into a TECHNICAL field, at a TECHNICAL collage. At *SOME* point shes gonna have to figure it out.

So far her career path looks like a short stint at a help desk then unemployment.

As some of us started out direct dialing into BBS's. And who could forget Genie? Good times.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[pandrijeczko]

I think you'll find there are both helpful people & obnoxious zealots for whatever OS you would care to mention.

I'm not going to repeat the contents of my two previous posts in this thread except to say that since "Linux geek" generally equates to "PC geek", if you took the trouble to find out then you'd see that a lot of people in the "Linux Community" (myself included) give a lot of free time fixing computer problems for friends & family, most of whom run Windows.

And in my 25 years of doing tech support-type jobs, one thing that makes me so good at it is because I take the time to explain to people how they can avoid recurrence of problems so that they learn something - and in turn, probably end up troubling me less in the future.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[DaveV1.0]

Really? I would say she has the ability to learn and understand. She just doesn't have the desire to learn an operating system that, on the desktop, is obscure and little used and that she would probably never have to use elsewhere.

Arrogance is defined as an "attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions". I would say your belief that everyone should want and bother to learn to use Linux smacks of arrogance.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[fluffernutter]

So you're saying it is a proper and correct course of action for Ubuntu to sit around and hope that the larger user base will all of a sudden have the desire to be more intelligent about computers? Why would they? If you ask me, the more intelligent decision on their parts is to use the OS that makes 95% of the things they need to do simpler for them-- Windows. You've got to remember that your comment applies... but to life in general.. People have learned and they understand that the easiest way to get things done on a computer is to use one with Windows on it.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[the_tommes]

People with improper upbringing have learned, that the easiest way to get things is to bitch about not having them to someone who can provide.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[secretcurse]

I'm sorry, but I'm of the opinion that people should be obligated to learn a little bit about the tools they use. I believe if you own a car, you should know how to do simple things like checking fluid levels, changing oil, and changing a flat. Now, some people are going to choose to pay someone else to do those things and that's fine, but I think if you operate a car you should at least know a few basic things about it. The same holds for computers. I just don't have pity for someone that isn't going to learn enough about their computer to be able to hook it up to their cable or dsl modem and search out basic troubleshooting problems using Google. This girl wanted to save a few bucks by not paying the Microsoft tax and now she's mad because she didn't look into the situation enough to realize that she might not be able to use it with her school's online programs. Why the fuck wasn't she smart enough to call the school's IT department and work with them on finding a computer that would do everything she needs for her online classes? I'm sure any school is going to be more than happy to help an online student pick out a laptop...

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[Vexorian]

You are missing the small little fact she actually bought the ubuntu dell rather than receiving the CD on the mail.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[HockeyPuck]

I'm of the opinion that people should be obligated to learn a little bit about the tools they use.

I hope you can fix a toilet, garbage disposal, microwave, cordless drill, water heater, furnace, elevator, dishwasher, lawnmower, ATM machine....

Sorry couldn't resist.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[cptdondo]

Well, yes and no.... I taught at a small college, mostly attended by non-traditional students. I taught junior and senior level courses. Some of my students had never, in 14 years of education, taken a test that was not multiple choice. I asked for definition of terms on an open book exam. The bloody glossary was in the back of the book. All they had to do was to copy word-for-word from the glossary. Some couldn't even figure that out.

One woman even filed a formal complaint against me, claining that my tests couldn't be judged "objectively" and thus were unfair.

So when your whole education is reduced to A, B, C, or D - well, let's face it, that might prepare you for being a cashier and McD but it certainly fails any reasonable standard for education.

When you're presented with something new, and you've always been offered one of four fixed choices and the answer isn't there, this is what you can expect. It's Dell's fault, it's the university's fault, it's everyone's fault but mine. They didn't give me the right choices to pick from.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[neuromanc3r]

Just like with cars, some people are mechanics, some people just change oil and filters and others just drive the car. It's a shame the linux community can't understand the same thing about computers.

The thing is, no one expected her to change oil and filters, but she should be able to drive a car with 6 gears after learning to drive in a car with 5 gears.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[pfarber]

Other than the toilet, knowing how to operate these items is all you are expected to do as none of the repair parts would be readily available for repair.

For some reason you can get parts for the toilet.. because fixing them can be a somewhat shitty job.

Knowing how to run the 'network connection wizard' or whatever ubuntu calls it is nothing more technical than knowing how to adjust the power level or set the clock on a microwave.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[sciurus0]

If someone hands her a Microsoft Word document, she double-clicks it and it opens in OpenOffice.org.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[darguskelen]

Just like with cars, some people are mechanics, some people just change oil and filters and others just drive the car. It's a shame the linux community can't understand the same thing about computers.

I am one of the people who just drives the car, but I also know to take it to someone who knows about cars when I have a question or a problem. So instead of asking, well, ANYONE about her computer, she blames it on Dell. I'm not going to blame GM if I want a sunroof and the car I buy doesn't have one. I'm not going to blame the dealership. I'm going to blame myself, because I was the idiot who didn't specify what I wanted.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[Tweenk]

OK, you are criticizing a lot. But what should we do? Run ad campaigns in the TV? Install OpenOffice masqueraded as Microsoft Word and get sued? Put Internet Explorer icons on the desktop? Detect Verizon CDs and run our own substitute application with Verizon logos and get sued as well? At this point the problem is not that the software is not usable, or that people refuse to fix it. It is the users, which don't even know what they want to do.

Or maybe you want to say "If someone is completely uninformed and wants Windows, don't try to inform them"? Sorry, but we are not going to do this - otherwise nothing will change.

Basically you have users thinking in terms of the tools they use and not in terms of the things they want to do. This is because of marketing-based education that someone else mentioned earlier. Getting back at cars, if you have someone saying "I want to get into a Ford, put in the forward gear and press the accelerator until I see a low white building with a big parking lot" instead of "I want to go shopping", you can't do much about mass transit to make it more usable to them - they won't have tickets, move their arms like they wanted to steer in the passenger seat and look surprised when the bus doesn't turn, look in vain for the gearbox and complain there isn't one etc. no matter what the mass transit system looks like, until they realize that getting to a destination is not fundamentally dependent on driving a Ford, and that a tool is not equal to the goal of its use.

The only thing we can do is education - this will be painful, slow and unrewarding, but in the end maybe it will make the world better.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[berbo]

I don't fault this person for not knowing about Open Office, etc. But I do fault her for not trying to find out how to use a tool that she paid $1100 for.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[gbarules2999]

It's not about Linux, it's about computers in general. What would have happened if she had bought Windows Vista a year ago? The Verizon disc wouldn't have worked, maybe Microsoft Word wouldn't have been installed, and MS changed the entire OS from top to bottom. So, no, stop putting the blame on the Linux nerds.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[Anonymous Coward]

No we shouldn't have to be ashamed (I'm part of the Linux community).
We are not expecting here to perform some technically difficult task here (as you obviously try to blow this out of proportion). We are expecting her to try. At all. Or ask someone for help.

Open Office is already there, straight out of the box. It's fully visible from the program menu. She would just have to click on the file and it opens, which is more than what you will get from windows. What more can you possibly ask for?
Take ANY standard Windows installation and look *GASP* guess what?! No fucking Microsoft Word there either. Does that mean that Microsoft should be ashamed since they assume i know i have to buy extra software and go through some "difficult" install procedure? Where does it end? What ARE we allowed to expect from users?

She obviously didn't try to contact anyone regarding her problems. MATC and Verizon seems VERY helpful after being contacted. Noone told her because she asked noone.

She dropped out and had to find something to put blame on. That's the only thing being reported here.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[Todd Knarr]

... and there are people who can't do basic work on those things? How odd. I'm not sure how they'd get through life, what with all the little break-downs that need fixed and the wasted time and monetary cost of finding someone else to do a 5-minute repair for you.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[secretcurse]

Well, yes. None of those things are hard to do basic maintenance on (besides the ATM machine, but I unfortunately don't own any of those). My dad gave me his copy of the Bob Vila home improvement library from Craftsman/Sears from the 70s that goes through fixing basically anything in the house. It used to be expected that a homeowner could take basic care of their house. A person with even marginal intelligence should be able to handle basic troubleshooting and maintenance for a house, car, or computer. If they have some curiousity and drive, they can get into intermediate troubleshooting and maintenance, or even upgrades. Nobody will be an expert at everything, but I think people should know a little bit about the things they use every day.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[tibman]

Dude, if i sunk $1k into something and didn't realize till it came out of the box it wasn't the shade of something i wanted.. i'd atleast TRY to make the best of what i had. Try.. seriously. She could have gone to one of the computer labs at school and spent an hour firing away basic questions on the Ubuntu forums.. or ANY linux forums and gotten the information she needed.

She tried the "windows only" install CD and it didn't work. She didn't call Verizon. The News station did. Verizon said they'd send a tech out to help her. Calling the provider of your service when something isn't working right isn't technical.. or difficult. I don't think she's dumb, i think she's playing the blame game.

quoted from the Article: "Schubert's computer came with Open Office, a word processing software package that is compatible with Microsoft Word. She says she wasn't aware it was compatible. MATC promised to show her how to save documents in compatible formats so she could enroll in online courses again." This tells me she never plugged in her thumbdrive with docs and even try. Or even looked to see if "office" was installed.. or even notice it wasn't the normal MS office and ask the school about it. I hope you get what i'm trying to say.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[Totenglocke]

We should be ashamed that an idiot American bought a product without knowing the details of said product, got EXACTLY what she ordered, didn't bother to learn how to use it properly, then dropped out of school and blames it on not knowing how to properly use the product she bought?

I'm not an expert Linux user, far from it. However, I have a fully functioning brain and if something doesn't work I *GASP!* FIND HELP, whether it's a friend, going on the internet, etc.

You should be ashamed for defending such complete stupidity and self-created helplessness -- it's the mentality of people like her that's causing the US to fall behind.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[ion.simon.c]

From TFA:

Verizon says it will dispatch a technician to try to assist her accessing the internet without using the Windows-only installation disk. Verizon says its high-speed internet does indeed support Ubuntu, but some advanced features and installation disks clearly don't work with Linux.

MATC also says it promises to accept any of Schubert's papers or class documents using whatever software she has installed.

Schubert's computer came with Open Office, a word processing software package that is compatible with Microsoft Word. She says she wasn't aware it was compatible. MATC promised to show her how to save documents in compatible formats so she could enroll in online courses again.

(Copyright 2009, Dan Cassuto: dcassuto@wkowtv.com Used without permission.)

As we can see, Ubuntu will do everything that is required for her online courses.
She didn't even *try* to contact her ISP, her University Help Desk, or her professors to resolve her issue. Hell, she didn't even attempt to edit one of her existing Word documents in OOffice. She gave up, straight out of the gate. What would you say to a Mac->Windows convert that claimed that they couldn't get anything done 'cause they couldn't install iMovie?

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[ion.simon.c]

*nods*

"Ordinary people" turn off their brains when they're asked to operate a computer. I wish I knew why.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[Shadowlore]

"Just like with cars, some people are mechanics, some people just change oil and filters and others just drive the car. It's a shame the linux community can't understand the same thing about computers."

There is a distinct difference between understanding and agreeing. You are not saying we should *understand*, but that we should agree - you are just using the word understand incorrectly. To make the illustration clear, I understand why some people are racists, but I do not, as a consequence or otherwise, agree with them.

"why should we blame her if she looked on her computer and *GASP* didn't see Microsoft Word"

Because she somehow "accidentally" clicked through many additional steps to get a non-Microsoft operating system on her computer. No, you don't "accidentally" do that. Then again, taken from another point of view, why should we not point that finger directly at Microsoft. After all, Word/Office does in fact operate on non-MS OSes, but not Linux. That is their choice, not hers. Why should "linux users" be blamed when Microsoft chooses to not make their software available for Linux?

"Is it possible that just maybe, he classes said as a requirement you needed MSWord for the class materials? Maybe there are spreadsheets that are handed out that have tons of formulas and macros in them; is the instructor going to worry about OO macro compatibility."

MSWord doesn't do spreadsheets. But that aside, let us take another PoV again. He shouldn't have to care because spreadsheets should be the same. Yet MS insists on making and keeping theirs non-interoperable. Maybe spreadsheets should be treatable like black boxes. After all, math formulas are math formulas, right? Oh, but this prof is at a *technical* school. He *should* be expected to know and account for such differences, at least he should be if it is a *quality* school. Unless the class is "MS Word" or "MS Excel", it should be vendor agnostic.

Schools are focusing on a single vendor or language and billing it as the broad category. This is wrong. Yes, the prof *should* be better than what you suggest. Mediocrity and false claims are the last thing we need in professors, instructors, or teachers.

And finally, I'm sick of the arrogant "you Linux users are all ignoring the ignorant people" attitude. So what if we/they are? It is an equally valid argument to say the opposite, that people should know how to use things they use. Your continued analogy to "people just drive their car" is false to your claim anyway. People go to classes to learn how to drive the car. You don't just get to fire it up and go. A general purpose computer is nothing until you determine what and how to do something on it. If this woman was going to a driving school that insisted she bring a gasoline powered car, yet she went to a the dealer and insisted on and ordered a diesel powered one, where would you assign the blame when she couldn't fuel up at the school's pump or that the gasoline she put in at the school caused it to not run? Hey, it is clearly the attitude of those who make diesel cars when the rest of the world doesn't want to know what kind of fuel goes in their car they just want to drive it, right?

For all those who think computers, Linux or otherwise, should be so simple that any idiot can walk up, sit down, and use it productively, with no training at all - you can go make one that way. Until you accomplish that, all you have are vague and false platitudes and "comfort theater" - your proclaiming these non-extant virtues serve only to promote a sense of superiority in attitude. Meanwhile, the rest of us are working in reality. We recognize that "one size fits all" is a lie. We recognize that mediocrity is easy, and that handing out gold medals to anyone who tries out for the Olympics is stupid. Some things in life should be a challenge. That some will not succeed is part of life - the game of inches.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[thetoadwarrior]

If you aren't expected to know how to use Linux then you should also avoid buying it.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[Anonymous Coward]

You -do- have a drivers license right?

Grow up, cars have been around for a -lot- longer than computers. You need a license to drive, how about a license to use a computer?

There are more financial/legal/secuiry issues online than on any highway or road.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[HermMunster]

It has nothing to do with Linux. More than anything I'd say it has everything to do with Windows (the status quo), her, Dell, and attitudes like yours. The assumption you make and conclusion you draw is that in one's life they should never be expected to use anything other than the status quo. I do wonder how people manage to make it from job A to B to C, throughout their lives. And, given that this woman was in college I find it hard to believe that we wouldn't expect her to have an open mind--to look past the status quo.

We aren't talking about a grade school child here. We are talking about someone who is in life expected to learn and grow with society. Linux is part of society now. No, it is not the status quo and thank goodness for that.

What we should expect of every/anyone is that at any given time they could find themselves in another job with all new undiscovered duties using equipment they've never seen before and still be expected to deliver something. It's called the learning process.

There's nothing wrong with the way the Linux folks answered, and, in fact, the way they answered was absolutely the correct way. To answer by stating that she should just be expected to accept the status quo is riotously funny.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[ion.simon.c]

For all those who think computers, Linux or otherwise, should be so simple that any idiot can walk up, sit down, and use it productively, with no training at all

Hi. Longtime Windows and Linux user (and career programmer) here.
Computing *is* too damn hard. Many people *really* only need an appliance that has a mail client, surfs the web, and maybe helps them do their taxes. I do believe that we could configure one of the major OS's to behave in this way... but I guess that it wouldn't be sexy or something. (TBH, I'm not sure why Apple hasn't sold something like this yet!)

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[ion.simon.c]

This is the best old-school troll that I've seen on /. in a long time. Kudos!

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[Anonymous Coward]

Some of us are sick of the outside world's attitude towards free open source software. Our problem is not that she was not a intuitive user. It's not that she doesn't want to run Linux. It's that she is actually blaming Dell, a hardware manufacture, and Ubuntu, a perfectly decent operating system, for a so called inability to attend online classes. Dell can charge a restocking fee for a laptop return, but she'd get $935 back. She could have had Windows and Office installed for her, and the software alone would have cost more than the $165 difference. Remember, she hasn't yet paid for any software. Did she call Verizon? I doubt it. If she had they probably would have gotten her online. I'm not saying it wouldn't have been a waste of time, but everyone has to waste time with vendors from time to time, and I'm more inclined to feel sympathy for the Verizon technician on the other end of her call. If she had actually double clicked on a Word file to open it, Open Office would have done so. No configuration necessary, same as Windows. From the sounds of it the school expects her to be able to use Firefox. Did she do any independent research? After all I think its common sense outside the techie world that talking to the vendor is NOT good research. While an individual technician may have given her some bad advice, she obviously did not put out the effort required to resolve her own mistakes. Instead she complains and blames others when she's too stupid and/or lazy to do online classes.
No matter how anyone intervenes on her behalf, a year from now she'll have found another excuse for her laziness and failure.
As for you, do open source users make you feel, and I suspect quite accurately, stupid? Are you, /me cringes, an open source user with "special needs?" God, I hope not. Sorry for re-enforcing an unfortunate truth. We aren't "better" than you, but we definitely are smarter. Will Jeopardy ever be more popular than American Idol or Survivor? I doubt it, but I'd rather hire a Jeopardy champion than a reality show finalist. Anyone who's needs the help of the local news to get an RMA from Dell belongs riding the short bus, we're all safer that way.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[Wovel]

Of course the bigger problem will be submitting papers in Word format. Often times documents created in OpenOffice just do not look right when opened in Word. If MS would bother to buy the license for Word and or Windows we could all start submitting papers as PDFs and be done with that mess.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[Wovel]

She did ask for help..

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[IrquiM]

I kind of agree with you, to a certain extent...

However, you shouldn't say "I think the community forgets that for the majority of internet users, they started out by getting a CD in the mail".

Maybe the Ameriacan ISPs are that ignorant, but there are other ISPs in other contries which actually include in the manual "how to install in linux!", and have done so for many, many years already.

To the ISPs: Put it in TFM!
And to users if it's in TFM; RTFM!

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[influenza]

You're absolutely right. Linux users aren't going to be the only ones seeing this story and thinking the woman is foolish. Sure with the attention span most people have many will miss the end of the story where it's explained that her Ubuntu computer was actually compatible with Verizon and Word documents.

But even to a non-technical audience it should be clear that this woman didn't try very hard at all. If she had have called Verizon tech support herself they would have been able to guide her through the process, and they were even willing to send a technician to her house to help her.

She must be thoroughly embarrassed, and rightly so. Before dropping out of school and alerting the media, she could have also asked a friend, friend of a friend, or a relative for help. Even if she ended up with her 12 year old niece installing a pirated copy of Windows she would have been able to stay in school.

The sad thing is that many people won't pay make it to the end of the story and will be left with the impression that Linux is a bunch of headaches that they don't have time for.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[celle]

Maybe they all should learn to be a little mechanical knowledge. They might appreciate what they have more, you know, the car before the wreck. Maybe even realize the space between their ears and under their hair isn't just to expel hot air. They might even have an original thought, golly gee, off to college.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[Anonymous Coward]

Well said. I think the problem for linux isnt the OS as much as the attitude that comes from its users. Too many assumptions that most people have average computer skills. Most people are not computer savy at all. Hence too many linux users AND developers live in a vaccuum. I'm just amazed that these type of scenarios have to occur for some of them to realize it.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[Anonymous Coward]

You need a license to drive a car...

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[Anonymous Coward]

It does run rsync. I don't remember if you can rsync to directly to a dataset or have to rsync to a mounted dataset mounted in OMVS using NFS.

Re:I'm sick of this Linux attitude

[Lundse]

Just like with cars, some people are mechanics, some people just change oil and filters and others just drive the car. It's a shame the linux community can't understand the same thing about computers.

I generally agree with you here - the woman is in no way to blame for not being able to use Ubuntu, nor for not knowing what it is.

But she did order a computer with an OS which she did not know what was! And she did let herself be convinced to keep it! And she did not get help from faculty tech, classmate or friend who could tell her how to use Ubuntu or what it would entail for her to keep trying.

She just dropped out when it did not work. And then she went to the press to complain, basically, that Ubuntu is not Windows. Ubuntu and the linux community should not be ashamed that Ubuntu is not Windows - but we should not attack her for not being able to use Ubuntu as if it was, either.

We should remind her (politely) and the journalist (a bit more pointedly) that this is not a problem with Ubuntu, but with using the wrong software for the wrong job/person:
If you let yourself be convinced to buy a car needing more maintanance than you can handle, blame yourself and the slick salesman. And seek out a mechanic - don't go to the press about your mistake and blame the car manufacturer for making another car than the one you really needed.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't live in US, but my story is that I failed some exams a few years ago because the school had a shitty website written in ASP.
There were some javascript menus that were working only in Internet Explorer. The page still looked perfectly normal on the other browsers, except the actual menus were invisible. It didn't occurred to me that I was missing out on some valuable resources at that time, nor did their website even hinted that I must use internet explorer.

The school is a joke...

[trolltalk.com]

She's enrolling at the Madison Area Technical College, and couldn't be bothered to read the specs on a laptop she ordered?

Most of these "Technical colleges" are for people too dumb to complete "real college". Look at the course offerings: Keyboarding Introduction, Windows Vista, Frontpage for beginners, Keyboard skillbuilding, Internet Introduction (where they learn how to USE EMAIL!!!???? - this is a credit course?). This is stuff kids learn at home, or on their own, or in grade school.

Here's the list of online courses

Choice exerpts, as noted above:

Keyboarding Introduction
Catalog #10106101

Learn computer keyboarding (alphabetic and numeric keypad), develop speed and accuracy.

Credits: 1

and

Windows Vista
Catalog #10103124
This course introduces the Windows Vista operating system: work with common elements (windows, ribbons, dialog boxes, and Help), use accessory programs, manage file/folders, customize settings and maintain the computer.

and

FrontPage-Beg (Webpage Design)
Catalog #10103150

Introduction to Web page design concepts using FrontPage Web-authoring software. Create interactive Web sites with graphics, animations and components; use tables, frames, forms and templates to enhance Web pages; publish a functional Web site. Prerequisites: competency in Windows (10-103-124, 10-103-134 or 10-103-135) and Internet (10-103-146) or equivalent.

Credits: 1

and

Keyboard Skillbuilding
Catalog #10106139

Identify keyboarding weaknesses through diagnostic tests and analyses. Refine keyboarding technique, increase speed and improve accuracy through individualized corrective practice. Prerequisite: 10106101 or touch keyboarding experience.

Credits: 1

and

Internet Introduction
Catalog #10103146

Introduction to email software: send, receive, reply to, and forward messages; attach files; use signature blocks; and organize mail in folders. Overview of Internet features: web browsers and search engines, bookmarks and shortcuts, hypertext links and URL addresses, digital camera use, and on-line web resources. Prerequisite: competency in Windows (10103124, 10103134, or 10103135).

Credits: 1

What a joke.

Re:The school is a joke...

[hansamurai]

Yeah, judge a school entirely by its online courses. Let's look at some of their real classes:

Advanced Bioinformatics
Catalog #10007181

This capstone course in Bioinformatics provides the student with experience in the design and implementation of basic programming concepts applied to bioinformatics problems. Using the skills gained in previous certificate courses, the student designs and completes an independent project using the Perl programming language, Oracle database, and internet technology in the UNIX operating system. Prerequisite: grade of C or better in all certificate courses and concurrent enrollment in 10-007-180, 10-152-111, 10-152-120, 10-152-125, 10-152-151, and completion of or concurrent enrollment in 10-154-190.

Credits: 4

and

Clinical Ophthalmic Procedures
Catalog #31516327

This course prepares the technician to assist the doctor in advanced office techniques in the area of ultrasound, in-office surgical procedures, case history and scribing. Students will also study various systemic diseases and their affect on the eye. The performance of various skills is emphasized in the laboratory sessions. Prerequisites: 31-516-315, 31-516-301, 31-516-305, 31-509-303Prerequisites: Ophthalmic Pre-Testing 31516301; Ocular Anatomy 31516315; Basic Optical Concepts 31516305 and Body Structure 300-level or higher.

Credits: 2

and

Network Security Design
Catalog #10150193

This course affords the network security specialist the opportunity to conduct a vulnerability analysis upon a network in order to practice or refine the attack methodologies with the hacker tools and techniques to which the student was exposed during the various program courses. The student must demonstrate the ability to design, plan and execute a vulnerability analysis against an organization network. In this class, students learn the skills necessary for the Certified Information System Security Professional (CISSP) certification. Prerequisite: 10-150-164 and 10-150-196

Credits: 3

and

X-Ray Microanalysis
Catalog #10636141

Students perform elemental analysis with energy dispersive X-ray systems on both TEM and SEMs. The use of matrix corrections, qualitative and quantitative computer analysis routine will constitute a major part of this course. Prerequisite: grade of C or better in both 10-636-131 and 10-636-132, or consent of the instructor.

Credits: 4

Re:The school is a joke...

[Phroggy]

Don't forget, a huge swath of the population does not have these basic skills, and I'd much rather have them go to this "joke" of a college than ask me to teach them!

Re:The school is a joke...

[British]

I'm sure there's medical courses that are referred to as "jokes" by brain surgeons, yet would be a learning experience for you & me(assuming you too are not a brain surgeon). I mean like, Minor arteries 301? bahahah! This is child's play!

Re:The school is a joke...

[Rycross]

And to add to that, all the courses that the GP listed are 1 credit courses. Look at a "real" university's 1 credit courses and you'll probably find that a lot are equally as brain-dead. They're typically either lab/discussion sessions to augment an actual class or remedial classes (which is the category that these fall into).

Re:The school is a joke...

[berbo]

MATC offers a wide variety of courses. They have a pretty decent reputation in town.

Yes, its true that some people didn't learn how to use email in grade school. Some of those people are now trying to re-enter the workforce, or change jobs, and now they need to use email. Thankfully, MATC is there to help them.

Thats what happens to real people. But you wouldn't know about that, since you're obviously a young troll living in your parent's basement.

Re:The school is a joke...

[trolltalk.com]

MATC doesn't grant degrees. The MOST it does is give you up to 2 years worth of credits you can transfer to a REAL college.

As for the "its true that some people didn't learn how to use email in grade school. Some of those people are now trying to re-enter the workforce, or change jobs, and now they need to use email. Thankfully, MATC is there to help them." argument, this is something that anyone who isn't brain-dead can be taught in, at MOST, one afternoon, not a 1-credit course. Most non-computer-literate people figure it out with a few minutes help, mostly to point out what each icon does in their mail client. These should NOT be credit courses.

Courses like this are there to make money. They don't help people - not by convincing them that email is so complicated that it takes a full course to learn how to send one.

Re:The school is a joke...

[DeathElk]

/Reads list/

/Vomits/

VMWare

[Pope]

Sounds like a case for VMWare. I used it for a course because I was more used to Visio than OmniGraffle, and at school we had Visio, so everyone could open the documents. If she doesn't have a lot of RAM for her Mac, just get more, it's cheap! :)

Re:VMWare

[ThePhilips]

VirtualBox is slightly easier to install under Linux. And many distros have it already in repos.
Not as powerful as VMware, but less buggy.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Mr. Slippery]

And then, apparently, her solution to this life crisis wasn't to ask someone knowledgeable about computers - it was to call the local news!

She contacted the fscking manufacturer - doesn't that count as "someone knowledgeable about computers"?

Well, maybe not, since this was Dell...

Anyway, she had a consumer complaint about a product. She called the local news' consumer division, and everything got worked out.

The guilty parties here are Dell, for sending her a laptop with Ubuntu without making it clear that that's what she was getting and not giving good support afterward, and Verizon, for the usual unnecessary "install disk" bullshit.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet another reason to push for DTV to stay on schedule.

Online Courseware doesn't like *nix much...

[clarkkent435]

No sympathy for the referenced user, but I (a certified geek and Ubuntu convert) actually experience some pain daily when trying to access my online Ph.D. classes using one of my Ubuntu machines. The commercial courseware my university tailors to their use performs a JRE check at every start, which my machine fails despite having a current JRE installed; Javascript pop-ups with course announcements occasionally hang Firefox (a well-known issue with poorly-written scripts, but because they work in IE, the vendor doesn't fix them), and embedded media (usually Flash) is hit-and-miss. I've never had any problem submitting OpenOffice-generated .doc files, but the Word macros available to help with document formatting don't work, and I can fix formatting issues manually more easily than I can rewrite the macros.

This situation has actually improved over the last year or so; the browser check used to balk at Firefox and shut down. At least that's no longer an issue.

I'm willing to live with it as the cost of early adoption and agree with an earlier poster that this will only get better as more people (hopefully smart ones) leave their Windows and Mac environments behind.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Ultra64]

Maybe computer illiterate people shouldn't be using computers. We don't let people behind the wheel without a drivers license...

FreeBSD Got Me My Job

[Anonymous Coward]

. . . where I work with "Software Engineers" who think "Java" is a hipster's name for coffee and who would still be using Windows NT and Oracle 7i if the customer hadn't forced them to upgrade.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[joabj]

I think you're missing the point here...This would be the average person-on-the-street's reaction to using any sort of Linux distribution.

Sure, the reaction looks stupid. But you can't expect everyone in the world to become sysadmins or Linux experts, so if you want Linux to be used outside the admin and hobbyist communities, Linux distros need to work out-of-the-box..

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[meist3r]

And yet here is a normal person, trying to use it, and finding it frustrating and causing her problems, and people mock her attempt.

"Normal" is a very flexible definition depending on whoever sets the boundaries between normal and stupid. In my opinion a very stupid woman spoke to a very stupid Dell rep who wasn't able to tell her how to start OpenOffice (for fucks sake Applications/Office/Writer -how hard is that?) and relied on very stupid Verizon that can't produce an Ubuntu Linux installer for their silly software package.

I had a similar problem with my sister-in-law. Gave them a Ubuntu machine and she kept trying to install some ISPs network setup disc. Eventually I went over to their house and got the network running with half a dozen clicks by reading the (incredibly stupid) manual section that was about half a page long with pictures. She didn't even bother to read beyond section 1. Install software ... section 2 would have said "Set up without disc like this:"

THAT is the problem, not that people can't use Linux ... they want to be so stupid that they simply won't be able to. Anyone should be able to read, it's your responsibility as owner of the fucking machine to understand at least a bit of how it works. It's this "I don't get the first page in the book so I stop reading" attitude. If you don't WANT to do gain that knowledge you will have these kinds of silly idiot problems all the way. So "I am stupid" and "I don't want to know" are two different things and significant ones indeed. Sometimes a book starts making sense only after you've read it even without knowing what the first couple pages meant.

Similar Issues, yet Different

[odin84gk]

At first you think it is stupidity (since she dropped out of her class), but I would base it on the fact that she just wants it to work. Back when I was in high school/college, I had plenty of time to mess around with a computer to make it work properly. Now I don't care about my PC and I just want it to work. I would gladly pay someone an additional $50 to set up my PC to be optimized to my usage.

I purchased the Dell Mini 9 with Ubuntu, and it took me over 45 minutes to install Skype (I had to change the config file from x86 to ?lda? and then build it). If I knew it would have taken that much work, I would have gotten the XP version.

These things definitely need a better resource than Google. Most of my initial google searches resulted in unanswered forum posts and flamewars, making me feel stupid and making me hate my laptop.

For example, how do I get a terminal open in the folder that I am in? Do I just type in Make, or do I need more arguments? Why are these google results telling me to RTFM? What Manual? This stupid help file is pretty much worthless, so what are they talking about? What are these errors doing here? Why don't I have permissions and how do I get them? (sudo is a non-obvious command.) How can I edit a .config file? Wtf is VI and how do I save and quit? Ok, I finally ?compiled? it, but now what? Is it installed? Ok, I think it is installed, but now where is the executable? ARGH! I FREAKING HATE THIS THING!!!.... Ok, I have it working... Now I need to install the skype webcam options?!? F*(K!!! (Yes, I have it up and running, but this was very annoying and a non-tech person would have quit after the initial compiler error)

openoffice

[FonkiE]

my sister just got openoffice right now (saves .doc as default). she is getting along fine, but every 6 months she's telling she will buy office. it's in the mind of people - not in the daily work. she can't tell me any problem she has ... just the perception :(

Re:openoffice

[DaveV1.0]

If she "just got openoffice right now", how is that she talks of buying MS Office "every 6 months"? Either she didn't just get it, which puts the rest of your post in doubt, or she hasn't had it long enough to talk about buying MSOffice while having used OOo, or she has used OOo and deemed it inadequate and is just unable to afford MSOffice yet.

Talk out of Windows = Pay more money to Dell

[krzy123]

I'm sure she was talked out of Windows, when Dell probably said they would charge her money for a Windows XP license (she probably declined Vista, Dell charges I believe now to downgrade). Or that she had to cover any extra costs.

How public was this apology though?

[plasmacutter]

If there was no timely correction over the air or favorable story on ubuntu to balance it out, an apology in some dark corner of their website means absolutely nothing.

Microsoft's obvious plant (2 semseters without complaining? yeah right) got to spread all the misinformation she wanted.

Re:How public was this apology though?

[BarryJacobsen]

If there was no timely correction over the air or favorable story on ubuntu to balance it out, an apology in some dark corner of their website means absolutely nothing.

Microsoft's obvious plant (2 semseters without complaining? yeah right) got to spread all the misinformation she wanted.

The original story was broadcast on Tuesday, and there's going to be a follow up done tonight (Thursday) in the same timeslot.

What if she had a mac

[arrgster]

Would she have claimed Apple was keeping her from classes? She would have had the same issues. She is the one who choose the non-windows computer so how is it OS's fault she can't learn how to use it.

Re:What if she had a mac

[MattBD]

I was thinking the same thing. Most ISP's software doesn't include Mac versions either, so a Mac would have been in exactly the same situation. If only she'd just invested in a decent wireless router, with a web interface, all this hassle could have been avoided.

She is the RESULT of 12+ yrs of public schools?

[pfarber]

Holy smokes! I mean you are exposed to PCs (and Google, your new bff) in High School.. most kids even earlier. Yet this person drops out of a TECHNICAL SCHOOL because she can't resolve either a simple network configuration or a consumer complaint?

Wow..... I hope she's good in bed because all her other job prospects are looking very dim.

Not Ubuntu's fault

[asdir]

This whole thing is as upside down as Intelligent Design.
1.: If she wanted to use Windows, she could have installed it. Any Win-Fan will confirm that it is easy as pie. That she did not know that and noone told her, is not Ubuntu's fault.
2.: If she ordered the wrong laptop (or the laptop with the wrong OS), she should have looked better. That she did not bother to inquire further is hardly the fault of Ubuntu.
3.: If she did not get the Laptop she ordered, Dell should replace it instead of talking her into keeping it. That is not Ubuntu's fault.
4.: That the costumer service at Dell gave her bad advice or was otherwise unhelpful, is bad (if true). However, you cannot pin that on Ubuntu.
5.: That her school does not accept anything else than whatever is produced with MS products is either the problem of the school, the particular teacher or the overshadowing de facto standard created by users as a whole. That neither side in this dilemma, including our unfortunate student, seems to know or care about this dilemma is tragic. But it is not Ubuntu's fault.
6.: That she decided to drop out of school in resignation instead of fixing the problem that caused the resignation is entirely her problem and not Ubuntu's fault.
I fail to see why a distribution should take the blame for mistakes totally unrelated with the software packing it provides.
I understand that the student is desperate and rather wants to blame someone else than to accept her own mistakes. However, that is not the way it works.
Points in case:
@1.: If I got a flathead screwdriver and need a Philip's-Head one, I do not blame having the wrong tool on the screwdriver.
@2.: In the shop I should have known what kind of screwdriver I need. That they look similar but not quite the same should have been pointed out to me and should alarm me and make me inquire further. It is not the fault of the screwdriver, if that did not happen.
@3.: If I am sold a flathead although I wanted a Philip's-Head, I would ask the shop to swap it since it was their fault instead of resignating and gazing at the flathead in a meaningful way.
@4.: If I don't know how to use a screwdriver, and ask someone and the advice does not work, I either ask again or someone else or at least am mad at that particular person, but not at the screwdriver.
@5.: I can't turn any screw with the screwdriver I bought. I should have known that before and either brought my own screws or bought another screwdriver.
@6.: If I cannot get a screw to work although I will find great help if I would look, I would not cry mummy. And much less would I cry newspaperman and expose my incompetence to a whole community of tool-users.
Anyway, although it is named like it, the screw up is not on the side of the screwdriver. I guess that came through.
Sorry for the rant, but I just can't stand arrogance on that high a level.

Really

[huckamania]

Maybe she really is intelligent but not really familiar with computers. Really, there are still households that do not have a computer and you really don't need a computer to do anything. Einstein never owned one. Really.

Re:Really

[Kent Recal]

Einstein never owned one. Really.

But he owned a typewriter, the equivalent of that time.
Yes, there may be a handful of absolute geniuses in the world that, for some reason, never learned to use a computer. Something tells me that this woman is not one of them.

Re:Really

[ThePhilips]

Ironically I know such people. Also I know well their reaction to problems with technology. In fact it is very predictable: they immediately call me.

I can't imagine that somebody lives in a place where there are no knowledgeable about technology people. If not to show how to use Ubuntu - but at least to help buy/install Windows. And with modern primitive (simpler than "simple") installation procedure of Windows you do not need to have any slightest clue about computers or OSs.

Anyway I look at the story conclusion is the same: she simply wanted to skip classes and looked for excuse.

Re:Really

[SanityInAnarchy]

Maybe she really is intelligent but not really familiar with computers.

Given that she's college-bound, it's not an intelligent decision to be computer-illiterate. And if she's intelligent, she should be able to familiarize herself with computers, if it became a priority.

Re:Really

[thetoadwarrior]

People seem to fail to realise that true intelligence means being able to find a solution to things you don't know.

Just repeating things you've been told is not intelligence. Hell a parrot can do that.

True intelligence is having common sense and being able to solve problems. I don't know how to do everything, no one does, but when a problem comes up I find a solution. Whether that is reading up on how to do it myself, or researching who or what is the best solution to the problem for me then I do that and I get it sorted.

Sitting on your fat ass for 5 months with a computer you can't use is a sign of your brain being located in your back side. It's purely stupidity and as it's been mentioned before hopefully this is a fake purely for her sake seeing how if she is that stupid she won't make it far in life at all.

Re:Really

[KenoSarawa]

Einstein died in 1955. The modern "computer" didn't exist until the early 70s.

America's Best & Brightest

[itomato]

But seriously..

This may read like flamebait, but Shuttleworth needs to invest in a magazine or newsletter. There's still a lot of misconception as to what Linux or Ubuntu is/isn't, and can/can't provide.

This printed matter needs to accompany Ubuntu, no matter what media or hardware it ships on, and should serve as a FAQ and HowTo.

I submit:
---
Q: Can I use the 'Drivers and Manual' CD that came with my new 'X'?
A: No.

Q: Can I buy 'PC' games at WalMart that work with Ubuntu without special tricks?
A: No.

Q: Is Ubuntu a 'Generic' version of Windows?
A: No.

Q: Is Ubuntu a platform supported by Verizon, Rogers, AT&T, Qwest, HP, IBM, Toshiba, Apple, Samsung, Sony, Brother, or Canon?
A: No.

Q: Will Ubuntu save me money, trouble, or headaches?
A: Yes, but only if you're agile-minded and not willing to pirate Windows.

Re:America's Best & Brightest

[Shados]

Hey, I know its a fluke, but my 2 years old (the model is like 3-4 years old, I bought it right before it went out of production) samsung B&W laser printer that I got for 35$ on sale at Bestbuy came with a "driver" install disk and instruction to install it on Redhat and Suse (my short term history is fuzzy, but I beleive 3 years ago predates Ubuntu's rise into the mainstream?).

I've seen a scanner once that did too. So its -rare-, but it happens!

Re:America's Best & Brightest

[jimicus]

Printers - particularly laser printers - are much less of a problem than they used to be.

Myself I'd still be inclined to look for a Postscript printer because quite often with these cheapie units they're shipping a binary driver for a winprinter and it may or may not work with Linux the next time you carry out a major upgrade.

Re:America's Best & Brightest

[KasperMeerts]

That's absolutely not rare. Until now, I have used three different printers with Ubuntu (yes "only" three, I don't go out every day looking for printers to test and I seldom have to print something). And all three worked plug-and-play which is more than I can say for Windows.

I guess a good rule is: "If it works out of the box: Hurray! Else, you need a geek and you could be fucked (not by the geek).".

Re:America's Best & Brightest

[WiiVault]

I really like the concept, but there should be some yes question in there as well. For instance, "Will I have ever to pay for an upgraded version of Ubuntu?" All those noes make Ubuntu sound like its second class.

dell unubtu is not good.

[luther349]

as a ubuntu Linux user the dell version of ubuntu is like a ubuntu light install. it misses alot of important things like open office. as for the modem issue well i agree Linux wireless support just sucks. not due to linux but wireless venders not supporting it. her calling dell support was the right move and that's just sad they did nothing to fix the problems. either getting the stuff working under ubuntu or replacing with it windows.

I see this all the time.

[Jaysyn]

I work with an office full of people just like this. It's called learned helplessness & it pisses me off to no end. You don't want to think about a problem, you either want it to work right off the bat, have someone else fix it for you or throw your hands up & say "I can't do it".

Re:I see this all the time.

[lectrik1]

I am in agreement with you. It is not isolated to only computers, either. I see this everywhere. Has our society degraded to the point that we are no longer expected to take responsibility for anything? If the product is genuinely defective, then the consumer has the right to return it for one that works. If the consumer purchases something that they don't know how to use, it is their responsibility to learn to use the product or not purchase it in the first place. In this case, the woman wanted a computer to use for an online school. Apparently, she was familiar with Windows and wanted a Windows OS. Dell sent her a computer with Ubuntu, which she is unfamiliar with. I think it is her responsibility to either make Dell send her a computer with Windows or learn to use Ubuntu. I don't think she should call the local news and complain that it is Dell's fault she can't go to school.

Re:I see this all the time.

[DaveV1.0]

Did you even bother to read the fucking article? Did you get to the part where a Dell rep told her "Ubuntu is great, college students loved it, it was compatible with everything you needed?

Oh wait, then you wouldn't be making such an ignorant post.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[LandDolphin]

Well, obviously on her other computers. The average user has at least 3 working computers and another two they are working on, right?

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Mr. Slippery]

It's funny because she claims she couldn't get online because her Verizon install CD didn't work. She should have checked to see if she wasn't already online before complaining...

So she should know more than the authors of the Verizon install software, the software that told her 'Sorry, you're SOL'?

I mean, granted, the Verizon install CD was probably written by a bunch of trained marmosets, but the marmosets were specialists; it's not fair to ask an untrained human to compete with them.

It's not like openoffice doesn't work, or that networking under linux isn't pretty much "plug it in and go online."

If someone told her "you need MS word to do this class", it's not her fault if she doesn't know that OpenOffice.org would also work. And if Verizon told her "you need to run CD to go online", it's not her fault if she doesn't know that the CD is unnecessary bullshit.

The fault here lies with the school, Dell, and Verizon, not the student. She was trying to learn something new - hip-hip-hoorray! They gave her bad info and crappy support - bunch of mindless jerks who will be first against the wall when the revolution comes.

Why most comments on this are stupid

[DaveV1.0]

Everyone talks about all the documentation and help available for Ubuntu, yet you all forget one thing: The documentation is on-line.

She could not get on-line to read the on-line documentation on how to set up her computer to get on-line.

And, even if she could read the forums which pass for Ubuntu documentation, could she, who is an average Windows, actually find the information she needs and implement the changes? And, if she asked for specific help, how many responses would she get that didn't amount to "Fucking n00b! RTFM dumbass!"

Re:Why most comments on this are stupid

[KasperMeerts]

"System" (in the upper left corner) --> "Help & Support". Right before me, I see off-line support.

What's on the top of the page? "Common questions", including a link "Connecting to the Internet". This leads me to a convenient page, explaining how to connect to the Internet in a lot of ways, like ADSL, Wireless, PPPoE, 56k modems.

So no, there is no magic internet CD but with only a tiny bit of effort, she could have solved her problems on her own.

ANd if she couldn't do this, which is acceptable, she could have asked someone in her class to do this, I mean in college, there has to be someone who uses Ubuntu or at least possesses the problem-solving skill of a 10 year old.

Re:Why most comments on this are stupid

[DaveV1.0]

Well, we don't know if she did that. But, we do know that it didn't work if she did do that.

Remember, she received her "magic internet disk" from Verizon and we don't know what is on it. It could be drivers for a specific device, internet settings, some other software. Regardless of what is on the CD, she was told "You need to install this so you can use your internet service." by her ISP.

she could have asked someone in her class to do this

You mean the on-line class she can't get to because she can't get on line?

Try reading, it does wonders.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Mysticalfruit]

Having read the original story, there's a couple of things I noticed.

1. She accidentally ordered a laptop with Ubuntu on it. Okay, when she calls Dell, they should have been much more helpful. Yes, we geeks of the world clearly understand the superiority of Linux to windows. However, the customer is always right... If she wants windows, Dell should have been much more accommodating and put windows on the laptop.

2. Hopefully the first class this woman is going to take is a "Introduction to using the personal computer".

Don't you have to graduate from high school before

[sonciwind]

going on to college?

Wait a second.....

[belligerent0001]

I blame Verizon for not having the appropriate support mechanisms in place for her to utilize her Ubuntu with their service. As such I would think that she would attempt to find a service that could meet her needs. Further, the school is to blame for not supporting her alternative computer lifestyle, their insensitivity has cost this woman her degree in underwater basket weaving for gods sakes! And then there is her parental unit for not providing her with the necessary skills to live in the world with a modicum of common sense. (if common sense is so common....why do so few have it?)

Further, I blame this travesty on President Elect Obama. It is his lack of in site and failure to insure that every man woman and child in this country...nae the world...is fully computer literate in multiple operating systems. I call for impeachment....

Yes...I said it....it is called sarcasms.....and I have been hovering with a neutral karma for far too long...

It's Verizon

[recharged95]

On AT&T, surprisingly, if you can't figure out that registration is online (and the CD is just crapware), you call AT&T support and they walk you through--even if it's a Linux installation.

.

Considering Verizon likely uses Linux severs to handle proxying, firewall, etc... I'm a bit disappointed at Verizon--but then again who isn't, it's a telco.

Tagged entertainment == FTW !

Re:It's Verizon

[DaveV1.0]

Um, no, Verizon doesn't use Linux much, if at all. They prefer real Unix operating systems such as AIX and Solaris.

Re:It's Verizon

[tinkerghost]

From having worked to integrate Verizon as a 3rd party supplier, I honestly think that they use tin cans, string, ditto machines, and RPN calculators to do things.

Took us a week to get an IP address changed in their FTP push solution for CLEC ordering.

• Day one request w/ paperwork
• Day 2 paperwork from day 1 not processed before 3:30 - won't go live until day 3
• Day 3 find UN/PW being rejected, find out UN/PW no longer meets security requirements & entry failed silently & must be changed - resubmit change request.
• Day 3 find UN/PW being rejected. Per Verizon - they included trailing spaces when entering the PW - resubmit change request after 3:30 - because Verizon called @4 w/ cause.
• Day 4 bang head on desk while talking to VP about why system isn't updating Verizon orders.
• Day 5 Find Verizon doesn't process orders on Friday
• Day 6 wait
• Day 7 yeah finally works - except they send through 1 copy for each rejected order previously & I now have 200 copies of some orders.

Re:It's Verizon

[DaveV1.0]

Having worked at Verizon, I can truthfully say I know how you feel. It isn't any better on the inside.

Re:It's Verizon

[Cramer]

registration is online

Yes, but it's an ActiveX control that requires Windows and IE. And in the process it will force a bunch of completely useless crap, bloatware all over your system without asking, and provide ZERO means to remove it.

Re:It's Verizon

[tinkerghost]

I integrated their TAXI (SOAP based trouble ticket system) with out Trouble ticketing system. Ran wonderfully in the test environment, when I pushed it live - I found 4 spelling errors in the live environment that killed it. When I mentioned it I got an errata page w/ my 4 & a couple of others I hadn't found yet.

It's remembering things like this that make me almost glad to be laid off from there --- now if I was only getting paid to be laid off.

Verizon Install CD??

[Anonymous Coward]

hmm so would her windows only verizon disk have worked if she had got a mac instead...hm i think not! My verizon dsl went down once and I called tech support, the guy I talked to asked what OS I was running, I said linux. He then got defensive and nervous and said that I cannot use the internet, switch to windows, run the verizon cd and my dsl should work fine. This ticked me off that he was paid to give technical advice when he is almost as ignorant as this girl. I tried to explain that an Internet connection does not care what os its request come from, or if there are any computers even connected to the modem. He then disconnected me. Turns out verizon was having an outage in my area and my internet was back up late the next day.

You can't stumble upon a Dell Ubuntu

[Anonymous Coward]

Go out to the dell website and try to "stumble" upon a $1100 laptop with Ubuntu preinstalled. Not gonna happen. The clearest and direct path is to a Windows based laptop. You pretty much have to search for "ubuntu laptop" in order to find one.

Something not right

[snspdaarf]

I was going to rag on everyone about being unfair to this woman, but decided to RTFA first. Now I think that the general opinion on /. is probably correct. It was that she dropped both fall and spring semesters. Huh? I could see that she could freak out and drop the coming semester if she got her Dell just before classes, but bailing on an entire year sounds fishy. It's not like the world is in low supply of people that could help her with this problem (Dell and Verizon excepted), starting with the data doinks in the school's IT/networking support department.

Re:Something not right

[DaveV1.0]

Did you read the very first line of the article where her classes are on-line classes and she can't get on-line?

Abbie Schubert paid more than $1,100 for a Dell laptop hoping to enroll in online classes at MATC

Maybe you are too fucking stupid to read.

Re:Something not right

[snspdaarf]

I read the first line. I read all of them. She dropped both semesters. Every school I have seen, admittedly not every single one, has enrollment one semester at a time.

Maybe you are too fucking stupid to read.

I doubt that I have that in common with you

Re:Something not right

[DaveV1.0]

Yes, why ever would she drop both semesters of her on-line courses when, after months of trying, she can't get on-line to take the courses? Why, that is just the silliest thing anyone has ever done.

You really are a dumbass.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[LandDolphin]

What is Ubuntu market share? Is it enough that Verizon needs to pay attention to it? Could you assume that most people using Ubuntu are computer savvy and can proceed to connect without the disk.

Is this actually true?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen this story making the rounds of stupid places like Digg and Reddit whipping up the linux fanbois into a frenzy.

This story is so extreme I read it and can't help but think there's something fishy about it. So many things that have to happen just so in order to get to this conclusion. I suspect that someone is manipulating things - either she's being deceptive about the whole "Ubunto" thing, the reporter is having a chuckle, or someone has basically fabricated the entire story to whip people up.

This is real?

[CFBMoo1]

I looked at this and my first thought was The Onion. Then I clicked on the link and saw it was real and not The Onion.

Looks like Dell and the woman screwed up on that one. Dell should have met her needs better and she should have had the sense to tell them no when they told her Ubuntu is what she wanted when she knew she needed MS stuff.

Love my Ubuntu at work and home.

I need a new computer, this one is full...

[alcmaeon]

I was just remembering yesterday how I used to hear my clients say that they needed new computers because their old ones were full. This woman is in this category.

There are people out there who have no idea how computers work and they are prey to all sorts of disingenuous marketing and out and out disinformation.

Instead of running a news story on this, they would have done her more good by just telling her she was ignorant and pointing her in the right direction to get information so she can stop being a victim. The skills she would gain in learning about the computer and sorting the BS from the truth might even translate to other aspects of her life, like car and house buying, or job hunting.

Re:I need a new computer, this one is full...

[CodeBuster]

There are people out there who have no idea how computers work and they are prey to all sorts of disingenuous marketing and out and out disinformation.

The price of ignorance, whether of technical or financial matters, has never been higher in our society and it is growing larger all of the time. My advice to these people would be to turn off American Idle and crack a few books or Google some basic knowledge instead of whining when the smarter and more educated people take all of their money.

Re:I need a new computer, this one is full...

[MarkRose]

The price of ignorance, whether of technical or financial matters, has never been higher in our society and it is growing larger all of the time. My advice to these people would be to turn off American Idle and crack a few books or Google some basic knowledge instead of whining when the smarter and more educated people take all of their money.

Things are going to change very quickly once the depression is in full force. Those who have no knowledge will have no food. They won't have idle entertainment when all their money is going to buying the basics of life. They'll start putting a lot more energy into being productive.

Re:I need a new computer, this one is full...

[gillbates]

... turn off American Idle ...

Not sure if that's intentional commentary on the show, or an ironic spelling mistake.

Re:I need a new computer, this one is full...

[kmac06]

They'll start putting a lot more energy into demanding money/health care/jobs from the government.

Fixed that for you.

Re:I need a new computer, this one is full...

[Anonymous Coward]

NO, NO, NO! You're wrong. All this woman had to do was spend a little bit of time, maybe a few days, researching which computer would fit her needs. I would have cost her a whole 8 or 10 hours of research to make a $X00.00 purchase for a tool that was this important to her wow!

Re:I need a new computer, this one is full...

[awright69]

Not sure if that's intentional commentary on the show, or an ironic spelling mistake.

It's BOTH, you insensitive clod!

Re:I need a new computer, this one is full...

[sowth]

Instead of running a news story on this, they would have done her more good by just telling her she was ignorant and pointing her in the right direction to get information so she can stop being a victim.

Except this is how the current generation of software companies make money. They take advantage of the ignorance of users, so anything which helps someone learn how to use computers properly cuts into their profit margins. They'd rather sell crappy utilities and "services" and more computers and such. This is how the entire computer marketplace is set up.

However, if you read the article closely at the end, both Verizon and the technical college were helpful...so maybe things are not really that bad, though it often seems that way.

Her major...

[Bald-Headed Geek]

...is Computer Science. :)

Ubuntu Gnomes

[StarWreck]

Step 1: Order Laptop Step 2: Sit around for 6 months, doing absolutely nothing Step 3: Call local News, have them call tech support for you (like you should have done yourself 6 months ago) Step 4: ??? Step 5: PROFIT!

Re:Ubuntu Gnomes

[DaveV1.0]

2) a) Call Dell to exchange laptop and be told by customer support "Ubuntu is great, college students loved it, it was compatible with everything you needed".
2) b) Try to use the laptop and find out you can't install the driver CD for getting on-line

3) a) Call Verizon to try to get on-line
3) b) Have tech sent by Verizon to try to get laptop on line
3) c) Find out you can't install MS Word, which is required by the classes
3) d) Call Dell and find out you can no longer exchange the laptop.

There fixed that for you.

Re:Ubuntu Gnomes

[StarWreck]

Except she never called Verizon tech support. The Local news called Verizon tech support for her 6 months later.

OpenOffice is compatible with MS Word.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

How could she do a google search if she can't connect to the internet? Sounds like she only has the 1 computer.

Woman Claims Ubuntu Kept Her From Online Classes..

[aurb]

...Well then perhaps she should have used Gentoo instead.

Update

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently there is an update claiming this is one of the most read articles and is making people angry. Slashdot seems to have had an effect.

Re:Update

[francium de neobie]

That's not "covering their asses" - they're doing it exactly to stir up more controversy. See? More controversy, more views, more money.

Also, seeing as most people are not tech savvy, appealing to the stupid IS a good PR strategy in this case.

I'd be ashamed to admit I went there ...

[trolltalk.com]

"I attended the same school as this chick, and 90% of my syllabuses said that works *must* be submitted in Microsoft Word format."

You ADMIT to attending a "school" that gives credit courses on How to use a Keyboard (1 Credit) and How to send Email (1 Credit)? And you want people to take you seriously?

Internet Introduction
Catalog #10103146

Introduction to email software: send, receive, reply to, and forward messages; attach files; use signature blocks; and organize mail in folders. Overview of Internet features: web browsers and search engines, bookmarks and shortcuts, hypertext links and URL addresses, digital camera use, and on-line web resources. Prerequisite: competency in Windows (10103124, 10103134, or 10103135).

Credits: 1

Keyboarding Introduction
Catalog #10106101

Learn computer keyboarding (alphabetic and numeric keypad), develop speed and accuracy.

Credits: 1

Anyone stupid enough to pay good money for this kind of shit, I have just the poker game for you to sit in on!

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[TeXMaster]

And then, apparently, her solution [...] was to call the local news!

Which leads me to think that she is on the Microsoft paybook. Her story perfectly fits in the MS war against Linux and open source, and it needs as much media coverage as possible. Remember, spread the FUD.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Koiu Lpoi]

can we all just agree that in this case "college isn't for everyone?"

As simple as college classes have been made these days (insert comparison of highschool-level classes from progressively older timeperiods), I'm surprised they're not to the "for everyone" level yet. Then again, as the GP pointed out, she could have asked a computer-knowledgeable friend. Or made one. Sounds like your average attention whore, honestly. "It didn't work, everybody look at ME! I'm on television because I'm important enough to show those geeks who's right!".

...maybe that was a bit harsh. But maybe not.

Dumb blonde, then?

[macraig]

Is the Slashdot article photo of the real subject? If so, I think we know what the problem is....

The asshole factor

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people are turned off by linux because the advocates are complete assholes with no social skills.

Really.

Now reactionary slashdot reader, either spend your time modding this post down in your denial or really think about it.

Mod +1, Sad but True

[zooblethorpe]

Subject line says it all.

There's no step three!

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no step three!

When is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Word packaged with windows???

I for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

...welcome our common-sense-challenged, computer-illiterate, responsibility-evading overlord majority.

Oh, wait... didn't that already happen?

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot the "mr anderson" at the end of the sentence.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Temposs]

Maybe computer illiterate people shouldn't be using computers. We don't let people behind the wheel without a drivers license...

That's almost completely not analogous. Driving a car without proper training puts yourself and others' lives at risk. It is the responsibility of our government to preserve the lives of its citizens, thus the licensing requirement to ensure proper training.

Using a computer without proper training only wastes time and money. This is not something the government is obligated to prevent among its citizens.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly.

When I buy a car, I don't look under the hood - I take it for a test drive and let the sum total of my experience tell me if it's "good enough". I am much more interested in the navigator and radio than the suspension system - because I am more interested in using the thing than I am in tinkering with it.

One of the most brilliant things Bill did was to rename "directories" to "folders", and call his word processor "Word", etc.

If you want wide adoption, you don't make people learn words like "Ubuntu", or GNU, or that Wine is not something you drink. For that matter, look at the name of this site. How much more geeky can you get?

Sure there are people who love to tinker, but that ain't me, and the average computer user is the same way when it comes to their computer experience. They want to surf, read email, and when it's time to update, they want to click a button and it just happens - not "download, compile, patch, test".

If I told you I had a car that drove really fast and got excellent gas mileage, but very few of your CDs would work in it and you had to use a screwdriver to open the gas tank, who would buy it?

That is what Linux is to the average user.

And it's a straw man argument that it is easier to use. Maybe. Once you've invested time into it and learned it, but if it was truly easier to use, then people would start using it more - especially if they are "lazy". QED

To prove the point, consider how many people are buying an Apple these days - despite the fact it's more expensive (and don't give me any TCO arguments either - that's just another geeky canard. If the MS laptop is 500 and the Apple is 1000, the Apple is more expensive). As long as you insulate the user from the O/S, people don't care what's under the hood. This will not change, like it or not, mod me down or not, until Linux is truly as easy to use as Windows.

Nothing wrong with Ubuntu, but...

[scharkalvin]

I recently freecycled two old computers that I restored and installed the latest Ubuntu on them. In my freecycle ad I was clear that these computers ran Ubuntu Linux and I included a link to ubuntu.com. Two people called and were very happy to have those computers. They looked at the Ubuntu web site first and realized that the machines would do what they needed.

The big problem with Ubuntu is that most ISP's don't support Linux. If you know what you are doing, you can connect to most of them using Roaring Penguin, but the setup requires some geekwork. If you already have a home network with a router (and some ISP's will sell you this hw and support) then internet access is plug and play.

Re:Nothing wrong with Ubuntu, but...

[jim0203]

The big problem with Ubuntu is that most ISP's don't support Linux.

If I had a penny for every time I've called an ISP's tech support and pretended I was using XP, just so they didn't hang up on me...

This is way I get modded troll

[kenp2002]

Here we go again. All those people complained about my Grandma Test I do for usability saying that it's pointless and every time I mention it some linux-fanboy mods me troll for mentioning this kind of stuff.

LINUX WILL NEVER BE SUCCESSFUL ON THE DESKTOP UNTIL THEY GET OFF THEIR HIGH HORSE AND REALIZE THAT THEY NEED TO WORK ON MAKING THINGS 'INTUITIVE'

What good is saying "a few google searches would have told her" if she doesn't know that 'firefox' is a web browser.

More importantly, it would seem that the BUILT IN HELP in Linux is inadaquate to help her. FIX THIS SHIT and quit bitching linux-fanboy that users need to step up and learn. Technology serves the interests of the people, not the other way around.

I've ran Gentoo for years but many of you need to wipe the smug grin off your face and realize the vast majority of people aren't linux savvy and you need to build bridges to those people in order to get anywhere.

Usability != Functionality

Two different issues. The issue with Linux is usability. Gnome and KDE can only do so much to make some inherit issues with the whole GNU Linux ecosystem. It's largely driven by TECH SAVVY people. Just like hard core gamers versus casual gamers, the Linux\FOSS\GNU stack needs to take some serious time for the casual gamers of the OS world.

Re:This is way I get modded troll

[DaveV1.0]

The really sad part is that the attitude on display here is the reason Linux will never be a success on the Desktop/Laptop. Instead it will be used on servers and in embedded devices. Linux will become just another *nix variant.

Re:This is way I get modded troll

[Vexorian]

It is already intuitive, but it is not familiar, and nothing we could do will make this familiar. The issues this gal had were 100% about familiarity, all the intuitiveness in the world won't help you against a user that is convinced windows is the standard for everything.

Re:This is way I get modded troll

[Anonymous Coward]

I've ran Gentoo for years but many of you need to wipe the smug grin off your face and realize the vast majority of people aren't linux savvy and you need to build bridges to those people in order to get anywhere.

To get where exactly? Linux is not a commercial enterprise and nobody gives a damn about market shares. You can't have acceptance without dumbing down; if that's what you crave for, why not save yourself the huffing and puffing and go with a mainstream rather than a niche OS?

Re:This is way I get modded troll

[Anonymous Coward]

We can only hope OpenSolaris picks up - at least we can have a REAL unix.

How Software Works

[nbahi15]

This girl is typical of the mainstream, and what people often fail to grasp is that Windows is just as technically challenging to use as Linux, but there is a very large and established support infrastructure for Windows and years of conditioning the Windows experience.

As an aside, this girl is really dumb. You mean to tell me she can't find a guy to fix her computer?! Here are some easy to follow instructions:

Go to nearest Department of Computer Science
Find male
Use bedroom voice
Say "fix it."
Blow kiss

The hard part is not ending up with several guys at your apartment... Or maybe that isn't the hard part.

Re:How Software Works

[SkipRosebaugh]

So you're saying she should trade the illusion of sexual attraction for computer services? Fuck off and die.

Re:How Software Works

[nbahi15]

Well yeah. Although she shouldn't lather it on too thick, or she might come off as insincere. :)

Re:How Software Works

[nog_lorp]

Are you saying you've never had that happen to you?

Re:How Software Works

[LateArthurDent]

Are you saying you've never had that happen to you?

Actually, based on his tone, I think he's saying it has happened to him way too many times :)

Re:How Software Works

[Shadowlore]

"This girl is typical of the mainstream, "

No, she isn't. If she is, then the world is terminally screwed.

Re:How Software Works

[nbahi15]

Where do you live? I thought the world being screwed was a foregone conclusion.

--
I really doubt your Suburban burns less gasoline unless it broken, sitting on your lawn, with a tarp over it.

Re:How Software Works

[unleashedgamers]

I agree with your post 100% bang on with both your points.

Pure dumb or just a fail of an excuse to skip last semester and next semester.

Re:How Software Works

[Anonymous Coward]

This girl is typical of the mainstream, and what people often fail to grasp is that Windows is just as technically challenging to use as Linux, but there is a very large and established support infrastructure for Windows and years of conditioning the Windows experience.

As an aside, this girl is really dumb. You mean to tell me she can't find a guy to fix her computer?! Here are some easy to follow instructions:

Go to nearest Department of Computer Science
Find male
Use bedroom voice
Say "fix it."
Blow kiss

The hard part is not ending up with several guys at your apartment... Or maybe that isn't the hard part.

Why is such a sexist, stereotypical statement marked as 'insightful'? Lame.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Draek]

You're making the same mistake somebody else mentioned in another topic: when an application doesn't run on Windows it's the application's fault, but when the application doesn't run on Linux it's Linux's fault.

Linux isn't causing her problems, it's her apps, but more importantly it's both her own ignorance about the computing world, as well as her unwillingness to recognize as such.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[trolltalk.com]

The fault lives entirely with her. As proof, I offer you some of the for-credit classes offered by the "Technical School" she wanted to "attend" via the Internet ... anyone stupid enough to pay for this low caliber education is in the "you can't fix stupid" demographic:

Keyboarding Introduction
Catalog #10106101

Learn computer keyboarding (alphabetic and numeric keypad), develop speed and accuracy.

Credits: 1

Internet Introduction
Catalog #10103146

Introduction to email software: send, receive, reply to, and forward messages; attach files; use signature blocks; and organize mail in folders. Overview of Internet features: web browsers and search engines, bookmarks and shortcuts, hypertext links and URL addresses, digital camera use, and on-line web resources. Prerequisite: competency in Windows (10103124, 10103134, or 10103135).

Credits: 1

Keyboard Skillbuilding
Catalog #10106139

Identify keyboarding weaknesses through diagnostic tests and analyses. Refine keyboarding technique, increase speed and improve accuracy through individualized corrective practice. Prerequisite: 10106101 or touch keyboarding experience.

Credits: 1

Windows XP
Catalog #10103135

Introduces the Windows XP operating system: work with common elements (windows, menus, toolbars, panes, dialog boxes and Help), use accessory programs, manage files/folders using My Computer and Explorer, customize using the Control Panel and maintain the computer.

Credits: 1

Windows Vista
Catalog #10103124

This course introduces the Windows Vista operating system: work with common elements (windows, ribbons, dialog boxes, and Help), use accessory programs, manage file/folders, customize settings and maintain the computer.

Credits: 1

Word - Beginning
Catalog #10103137

Introduction to Microsoft's word processing software. Create, edit, save, format and print basic documents; cut/copy/paste and find/replace text; apply font styles and effects; add bullets and numbering; work with tabs and indents; align text; apply borders and shading; use wizards and templates to produce documents; insert headers/footers; apply different formatting to document sections; create columns; insert clip art. Create and format tables, modify rows and columns, perform calculations, sort table data, customize tables. Prerequisite: competency in Windows or Windows course (10-103-124, 10-103-134 or 10-103-135).

Credits: 1

We had classes in college that we labeled as "Mickey Mouse" - you'd sign up for one if you needed an easy credit. This, on the other hand, makes Mickey Mouse look like Einstein.

I wonder why the don't pre-load wine

[dherman]

Wine is GPL and Legit, right? Why don't they just install WINE as a standard item in their load?

Re:I wonder why the don't pre-load wine

[Vexorian]

Because Mark doesn't want ubuntu to be perceived as a cheap windows clone (*cough, remove Mono as well*) Nevertheless, it wouldn't have helped so much in this case anyway.

Ass-backwards

[CarpetShark]

This has nothing to do with Ubuntu OR windows. It has to do with the educational institution, discriminating against particular users. She should be complaining about the course, not her computer, which she was seemingly happy with otherwise.

Re:Ass-backwards

[lavardo]

and she is not a 'NORMAL PERSON', she is a 'STUPID PERSON'.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[MightyYar]

You are right - Dell were shitheads and deserve whatever the local news can dish out.

I'm pretty sure that she never called Verizon or the school, which is why I say that she's probably a lost cause. Hell, she didn't even find a geek to help her before calling the news. We are usually pretty responsive to pretty damsels in distress.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Googling without Internet seems kind of hard to me...

I attended this school

[mcstudent]

And had no problem using my salvaged laptop running Ubuntu. (Should anybody disbelieve, I still have my email account from the institution.) I think the comments about total illteracy only partially address the issue. Her complaint is no different from "My dog ate my homework" or, "My printer broke." To put it succinctly - "Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance." I transferred to a four year university, and I hear the same crap, people blaming technology for their lack of foresight.

Re:I attended this school

[DaveV1.0]

Yes, not knowing about an obscure, server-centric, and little-used-on-the-desktop operating system and having no desire to learn about it makes one totally illiterate. /sarcasm

I guess that means because you can't drive a tractor-trailer across the country and back into a dock designed for a rig that is 25 feet shorter than yours makes you completely qualified to drive a car.

Re:I attended this school

[blang]

It is certainly possible that you are right. However, you could also be wrong. She might be a depressed procrastinator/worry wort, and the obstacle of this super expensive but ultimately useless (as far as she is concerned) computer really prevented her from getting into those online classes.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[indi0144]

As I always have said you should need to pass an IQ test o competence test in order to have a PC, the PC is a tool (as in hammer) and something that you can use to create stuff, being software, music, multimedia, publishing etc. But average user just maintain a shitload of virus and botnets, chat in messenger and help id thieves to get profits thanks to face book. Seriously, incompetent users are a lag for overall development and evolution of IT. They don't need a PC! it's fucking evolution: you can't use the "_new pen_"?? so fucking starve. Theres too much leech in the world. Sound a bit nazi but, you, developers, how many time you had to ditch an ubber-revolutionary feature just because it was not user friendly? huh?. Or you web developers, how many hundreds of hours have you wasted creating hacks for IE? I'd say, LET THEM STARVE!

Guess what? I don't even use or like Linux!

[MikeRT]

And a Linux/Ubuntu fanboy, much like yourself, convinced her she didn't need to because "Ubuntu was great, college students loved it, it was compatible with everything I needed". Your analogy fails because under said analogy, she went to the mechanic who told her everything was fine and not to worry about it.

Ahh, the number of times I've been downmodded on Slashdot for criticizing Linux... you'd think I was a fanboy for Microsoft with the number of times that I've said that even Windows XP is faster out of the box. Where your analogy falls down is that what she did was the equivalent of calling the car dealership up and asking them if something weren't quite right with her car when the dealership had no incentive to say "well, you really intended to get this, but you settled for this based on your order."

3)If it has taken her several months to get to this point and she needs the laptop to take the on-line course and can't afford to buy another one or to buy Windows to put on this one, it makes sense that she cancel her classes until she can in fact attend them.

You can get Windows XP for about $100 on Tiger Direct, and most people know at least someone who can run the Windows installer and get it up and running. For that matter, what happened to the computer she used to buy it. Was it someone else's?

I would say you are an arrogant asshole for assuming that everyone is a technical expert who knows about Linux and assuming she is incompetent because she trusted customer support at the place she bought the computer from. I can only hope that you are fired from your job for being an asshole, so no one ever has to deal with your sorry ass.

It takes a special breed of hypocrite to take the moral high ground while blatantly wishing evil on others. Have you ever actually looked at Dell's offerings and realized that the only laptops that they have for home users that cost $1,100 are ones that only get distributed with Windows? Either she got really badly ripped off on a Dell Netbook or something is very fishy here.

Re:Guess what? I don't even use or like Linux!

[DaveV1.0]

The problem with what you suggest is that it was, and is, totally unnecessary. The only thing that needed to happen was for Dell to send her a Windows laptop when she asked for it.

If you don't like the tone of my response, maybe you should dig your head out of your ass and stop making baseless arrogant, linux-fanboyish comments.

It takes a special kind of asshole to complain about s"omeone blatantly wishing evil on" him after doing the exact same thing. Do you just believe that one should do as you say and not as you do?

Use Paragraphs.

[Anonymous Coward]

That is all.

Re-read your own post - either a plant, or a moron

[zooblethorpe]

5 Months is quite possible if it really isn't that high on your priority. Call tech support they give you a vague response. Mess with it a little once a week. Get fed up and call again after a month or so.

Considering that this woman ostensibly had to cancel two semesters worth of enrollment, this sounds like it should be a good deal higher on her priority list than what you suggest.

Which leaves two likely scenarios -- either it's a fake, or she's a certifiable moron. I certainly hope it's a fake -- if not, I truly fear for the future of humanity. This would be one individual that would not have been smart enough to survive back in the day. If she really is this dumb (I don't mean dumb about Linux, I mean dumb enough to cancel out of two semesters of a *technical* college rather than bother to find someone with half a clue to help her -- this would apply to *any* OS, or *any* technical snafu of any sort), such extra stupidity wandering around the gene pool can't be a good thing.

Cheers,

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the "news reporter" deserves the most scorn.
A) This hardly qualifies as news.
2) The girls ignorance is overshadowed by the reporter's ignorance and arrogance.

I don't blame Dell at all. I am sure she provided inaccurate and incomplete information regarding her needs at best.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[kalkin9]

you mention google searches but a) she had no internet and b) your assuming that everyone is as savvy as us. i know it sounds simple to google but to a lot of "normal" people this is simply not thought about. you've really got to think about it from a non-techy point of view: i have a laptop. i switch it on and click on the W to right letters, the E to go to youtube and the envelope to check and send emails. i press the print button to print. oh crap an error............. i think canonical and the linux community can learn something from this experience. something as simple as setting some icons on the desktop for the basics mentioned above even... i definitely think verizon and every other isp in the world can learn something from this. the chances are the router was already configured to connect to the internet. all she'd need is a one-sheet with a clear diagram showing her how to connect it to the wall then all she'd need to do is plug in her network cable. it's because of these cd's they provide that most users think they cannot connect to the internet without it. connecting wirelessly could easily be explained in a few clear and simple steps over 2 small pages.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[indi0144]

Yes, but damage it's done. Now average people (those who saw the news, God forbid if it get to digg) will associate Linux with "does not work" people don't rationalize when they don't have the necessary intellectual background to do it.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

And no, I'm not joking (I wish I was).

Just as you don't know what the subjunctive mood is? I wish I were joking, but I sadly I am not.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[jbolden]

It was worse in the early days of AOL/Prodigy... when the AOL users didn't realize what was AOL vs. what was "the internet".

The internet was a lot more civilized before 1995.

Miscommunication

[outdoorguy]

This is a perfect example of a lack of communication. The lady in the story obviously did not know what she was ordering and failed to ask for advice. Dell obviously screwed up by not asking what she needed and judging her expertise level. They dropped the ball by not returning her computer and giving her what she needed.

As an IT Manager for ten years, I learned very quickly that not everyone has an interest in computers. A recent poster here made an excellent analogy to automobiles. Some people are passionate about them and can recite the specs of every car on the road, and some (like me) see it as a tool to perform a task. Whenever I am asked for advice on what computer to buy, the first thing I ask is "what are you going to do with it?"

I think this would have been a perfect opportunity for the Linux community to step up and earn some positive PR. Rather than attacking everyone from Dell, the news reporter, the young lady who just wanted a computer, to each other; the Linux community could have stepped up and offered to help the lady convert to Linux. Why not offer to setup her Verizon card? Show her how to use OpenOffice! Make her a Linux proponent. Just think of the follow-up story!

I have been using Linux since Linus Torvalds first version. So I have been using it longer than some of the posters here have been alive! :-) Linux has come a long way. Even the adoption among our IT staff is slow - but it is occuring. The way to convert the masses is not to burn them at the stake for not understanding. It is to step up, show them how their computing experience can be better, and hold their hands!

This shows issues with Linux

[Vexorian]

This shows what Linux's real challenge is, and it is to battle into this amazing establishment windows has accomplished. First of all, Verizon will only care about providing a windows CD, users do not get this, and they will probably never get the fact, that it is Verizon's fault and not the OS, Verizon chose windows for her. But this gal and just about any windows user will blame the OS and not Verizon.

Second problem is the perception MS is some sort of standard. This gal was not looking to use a "word processor", she was looking to use MSWord. I can assure you that for all her homework of at least the first years OpenOffice will do just fine for her, but it doesn't matter how capable your apps are, if the user just does not intend to even try them.

Third problem, dell tech support, I think there was a misunderstanding between what she wanted to do and what dell perceived she wanted to do. The issue here is that not even dell is as experienced with ubuntu as it is with windows problems.

Fourth, unclear advertising, Let's accept it, but it is not wise to advertise these computers without having some words from the seller about how different is to use this OS to using windows. All we are going to get without clearer advertising is angry users - It is 100% that she is being an ignorant, but the real problem is that nobody should have sold this computer to this sort of user.

I think, that unfortunately these are the sort of issues that can't get solved with any other means than time. Or that will just not get solved. The whole IT is at fault for getting way too dependent on windows.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Most of the people that I work with (and these are college-educated people, mind you), don't know what a browser is (they refer to Internet Explorer as "the internet"). And no, I'm not joking (I wish I was).

So true. When I installed firefox on the family PC, there was uproar. "The Internet isn't working!" I mean, I had even made sure to copy their bookmarks, etc. To no avail. They still use internet explorer.

That's not the worst of it though. One morning, I awoke to them screaming out my name. I was convinced the house was on fire! I ran downstairs to find them cowering in apprehension, staring wild eyed at the computer screen. "What's wrong with it?!". I looked at the screen. It was the Redhat 9 login prompt.

Turns out when I set up a dual boot on the computer the night before, I forgot to edit LILO (or was it GRUB) to autoboot into the windows partition instead of the linux one. They had turned on the PC only to be confronted with the standard linux boot messages scrawl, culminating in the Redhat login screen. Apparently this had been quite the ordeal. They were visibly shaken, and remained so until long after I managed to boot back into windows.

To some people, computers are scary, and linux is downright terrifying. I don't understand why exactly, but that is the way it is. This woman is obviously just such a person who, when confronted with the Ubuntu login screen, probably never got past it.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[MightyYar]

I'm not a conspiracy hound, but maybe you are right... how does one "accidentally" order Ubuntu? It's not an option in their customizer... you have to somehow navigate through to their open source page, which then links you to their open source computers. And the picture shows an Inspiron, which to get to $1100, you literally have to max out... also seems fishy. I mean, if she really knows so little about computers, how did she know to max out everything? And if she was going to drop $1100 on a notebook, why didn't she click on the $1000 XPS instead of the $500 Inspiron?

Probably still not a conspiracy, though.

Quick to blame.

[Waste55]

Sometimes the apps themselves explicitly do not support linux.

I installed ubuntu for a friend...and his college's web apps (class registration, etc) were reporting that they were unusable on his machine due to the fact that the OS was not mac or windows. They were the only 2 supported platforms in this case.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[jbolden]

No, I think what they do is reasonable. The provide a windows install disk for the total idiots and tons of information for everyone else. A little more organization would be helpful.

The install disk doesn't really do anything.

Re:Valid yet Stupid - No, just stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you should read the fucking article or even my comment, dumbass.

Someone like you told her she didn't need to change anything when she tried to exchange her current laptop for a Windows laptop.

This is the equivalent of one planning a meal for chicken, going to the meat market and buying what one thinks is chicken but is really tripe, finding out that one did not receive what one wanted, then going to meat market and being told that the tripe will work in place of the chicken, then having the meal ruined.

Dumbass mayteeee, go to get likes some windens and puts like my verizons disks in, but oh no, the disks says it needs like windens XP's or vistans but lyk i got ubuntuns mayteee savess me like 20cent....

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[sdsucks]

Where do you live? Or perhaps, what year?

Damn, even my grandparents know what a "google search" is. I'm positive that everyone I know does. Do they think to do it as often as they could? No, but they do know what it is.

Certainly the majority of people in any modern country know what a "google search" is.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[indi0144]

[tinfoilhat]Ya, looks like marketing in Microsoft is getting creative, ya know mouth-to-mouth is the ubber weapon. [/tinfoilhat]

The probem is something else entirely....

[Wain13001]

The problem here is being highly misappropriated by the media coverage and even much of slashdot.

The real issue here is simple...people who do not know anything about computers should not be enrolled in ONLINE classes at their local university.

In fact, of the 3 universities I've worked at, all of them had a large amount of disclaimers essentially stating just that. "You will be responsible for your own technical issues, the university cannot provide for you in case of problems, please make sure that your computer is not only reliable, but that you understand how to configure your own internet, and computer maintenance before enrolling in online classes...blah blah blah"

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind from reading TFA that the woman here would have had just as many problems using Windows and Word, and then would be harassing some poor kid at a computer lab into doing all of her formatting, emailing, and homework submissions for her anyway.

We have not yet developed a stupid-user-friendly interface that is sufficient to handle the sort of person who is likely to struggle to find the power button...and the truth is, we shouldn't have to.

There is nothing wrong with requiring someone to know how to use their own tools in order to partake in a lesson.

Can this be good for Ubuntu, and Linux in general?

[twistah]

Can this be good for Ubuntu and the whole Linux-on-the-desktop movement? The article states that both Verizon and the college will work with her to ensure that she can use Linux to get what she needs done. So a major company and an educational institution are forced to break out of the mold of Windows, because Linux is now (even if accidentally) crossing over into the non-technical mainstream. The more this happens, especially in the public eye, the more companies will have to start considering Linux as something that has to be supported by default.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[king_nebuchadnezzar]

No it is obvious that she was expected to use IP over Avian Carriers RFC 1149 RFC 2549

aka: microserfdum;-)

[Anonymous Coward]

we are well on our way to hgwells' future; this woman is obviously an eloi;-}

Beep Beep Beep Ellen Feiss of Windows Vista

[Orion Blastar]

I tried to write my report in Ubuntu on my Dell laptop using OpenOffice.Org but all it did was beep beep beep at me and then Linux crashed. I had to rewrite the paper but it wasn't as good. I couldn't even get on the Internet to send the paper to my professor because Ubuntu wouldn't install the Verizon disk software. So I got F's in all of my classes. But then my Dad got me a Vista laptop from HP and the Verizon disk installed and Word worked great and I got an A.

Thank you Microsoft for Vista and allowing me to switch.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[QuantumSam]

I have a netBook running Linux. I also have Verizon FIOS and guess what? I can run FireFox and access anything on the internet. Nothing is preventing her from getting on the Internet other than her ignorance.

This woman is a silly strawberry who would probably fail her class due to inhanced mental density.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

how could she google. she couldn't even find the slot for the verizon disk

What if her school required Linux...

[Anonymous Coward]

and Dell sent her a Windows PC?

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[CrossChris]

Why was it she had to drop both the fall and spring semesters?

Because she was too stupid to even tie her own shoelaces.

She is definitely unsuited to "college", even though American "Colleges" are equivalent to a European Kindergarten.

Not her fault

[htdrifter]

Computers are not appliances but they are marketed as such. I've helped several people with similar problems. A newbie does not know where to start. Calling a service provider like Verizon or AT&T is not much help if you can't run the CD they supplied. Calling the vendor is usually not much better. I contacted the newspaper and left my contact info. I can help her over the phone. The way to spread Linux is to help people that are trying to use it.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't seen any netbooks that came with Ubuntu as an OS. It's always Mandriva or some other custom distro rarely (if ever) based upon Debian.

And where should Verizon stop? Should they offer Slackware packages? BSD? BeOS? OS/2? DOS?

A unified Linux would help, here, but no one in the Linux community really wants that.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[QuantumSam]

I use Linux to get on the Web. I have no problems and I have Verizon. It's humorous because she's blaming everyone but the person responsible-- herself.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[ISoldat53]

Anybody that works in tech support or as a sys admin knows exactly how computer illiterate many of our end users are. If anything the echo coming back is they don't know how a computer works. The assumption is that the user doesn't know what's going on. That's what we are here for. We will have to endure a generation of computer illiterates before we can assume that the end user knows the details of a computer.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[willworkforbeer]

No it's even better than that:

She was unable to log in to her MCSE training class.

What about LaTeX?

[dfn5]

\documentclass[letterpaper,12pt]{article}
\begin{document}
  \begin{quote}
    \em nor could she use Microsoft Word to type up her papers.
  \end{quote}

Isn't this an institution of higher learning?  What happened to using \LaTeX.  All you need is vi.
\end{document}

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the user doesn't get it--it's a bug. Verizon also needs to be chastized and their rights to local lines threatened if they don't provide technology neutral service. I had this same problem with Verizon DSL.. Their documentation was only for Windows and I had to call and argue for them to give me the info I needed to configure their stupid DSL modem using Linux. They instructions at the helpdesk, but it wasn't in the material that came with the modem.

As for browser and word processing, I think a consumer friendly GNU/Linxu should recognize that people will be having these issues and provide a start-up wizard and/or introductory documentation in some highly visible form to help them understand what they have and how to use it in a Windows dominated world.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

You only have 3 working and 2 your working on?

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Culture20]

As simple as college classes have been made these days (insert comparison of highschool-level classes from progressively older timeperiods), I'm surprised they're not to the "for everyone" level yet.

My publicly funded university made a Math class where _fractions_ are taught. The number is 010 because the _pre-algebra_ class already had the number 001. So many jobs require college degrees when the really aren't needed...

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[EnglishTim]

So let me get this straight... She can't connect to the internet on her computer and you're suggesting she does 'a few google searches'...

Plenty of blame to go around

[blang]

Assuming the version of events in the article are correct, then I blame Dell first.

Dell's job should be to serve the customer and get them what they want, since Dell can't possibly guess what they need. Talking someone into using something they are not familiar with is a misplaced form of advocacy. It is as bad as talking people into buying something they don't need.

That she payed a whopping $1100 for a laptop makes it even worse. Since she is a bit of a ludite, I expect the computer will not be used for extreme graphics or number crunching. So she probably overpaid by as much as $500 versus what she really needed. However this was her choice, and her bad. She should have asked savvy friends for advice on this purchase, or done some research on "the intenets".

I cannot blame her for complaining about the verizon CD. That's how that stuff is sold, and even many so called "power users" would not know how to configure that stuff if the CD didn't do it automatically for them. I find it hard to blame Verizon as well, since it is non-trivial to do automatic setup via CD for linux. Maybe something clever could be done, but there will always be some that fall between the cracks.

Ultimately I like to blame Dell here. If their sales interface was better, she would not only have gotten what she wanted, and maybe even what she needed.

I am a big ubuntu fan myself, but find it idiotic that other fans pretend to know what is best for others. If ubuntu was an exact drop in replacement for windows, then I don't see what the advocacy is about, and if it isn't then someone who wants whatever they are used to should be allowed to do so. (someone might argue that Vista is even more different from what she is used to than ubuntu, but that would be Microsoft's problem, not a problem of misplaced advocacy)

I also question this bad habit of many ludites to call customer service for help. Don't people have friends anymore, or are they ashamed to ask for help?

I am also disturbed that the default kneejerk response to this story is even more ubuntu advocacy. Ironic when considering that misplaced advocacy is what gave ubuntu a black eye here in the first place. Way to go morons, in destroying for an OS that I love.

Re:Plenty of blame to go around

[DaveV1.0]

Since she is a bit of a ludite(sic),

Hmmm

luddite: One who opposes technical or technological change

Please explain how she is a bit of a "ludite" for not knowing about an obscure, server-centric operating system she has never had to use and had never heard of.

Re:Plenty of blame to go around

[blang]

Ludite(sic(sic)).

I misspelled it because of the spell checker, which gave a red line under luddite. Thanks for getting me straightned out on that.

You must apparently be a binary thinker, a person with a one-bit brain. If not you would realize that such traits are not binary. Between full luddite, which is basically a cave woman, and the ultra-wired gadget obsessed, which has to have tomorrows gadgets yesterday, there is a sliding scale. I wrote "a bit of a luddite", which kind of makes your point pointless, but thanks for pointing out the spelling.

Re:Plenty of blame to go around

[DaveV1.0]

She is not even a little bit of a luddite because she is not scornful of technology. She merely regrets buying this laptop because it came with something that will not do what she wants and needs it to do without her spending time and/or money, neither of which she wishes to do. That makes her an average person.

If she were a little bit of a luddite, she would not be taking on-line courses and would be unfamiliar with Windows and installing software.

Re:Plenty of blame to go around

[blang]

You are absolutely wrong.
She is a bit of a luddite by not being competent in this technology. If she knew about operating systems, she would know that word only runs on windows and mac. It is my contention that someone who does not know this, is unlikely to require an $1100 laptop. She is also being a bit of ludite for showing helplessness in dealing with these issues. She is blaming the technology for her lack of knowledge. And going to the news instead of finding a skillfull helper. That's ludite behavior. So I stand uncorrected. Not gonna give you an inch. You are behaving like a one bit dictionary.

Re:Plenty of blame to go around

[DaveV1.0]

She doesn't need to know about all or even multiple operating systems. The only operating system she needs to know is the one she wants to know, Windows. She wanted a Windows laptop. She thought she ordered a Windows laptop. She got a laptop with something she never heard of called Ubuntu. She called and asked for a Windows laptop and was told that was unnecessary because Ubuntu would do everything she needed, which was a lie. It didn't do what she wanted or needed.

It is unreasonable to expect her to have knowledge of an obscure, server-centric operating system. It is akin to you having ever only driven small cars with automatic transmissions and me expecting you to hop in a tractor-trailer and driver it across the country then blaming you for your lack of knowledge of how to start and drive the rig.

You seem to be under the impression that because you had the desire to learn some obscure bit of technology and now hold that knowledge anyone else who does not hold that knowledge is "a bit of a luddite", that is not the case.

You are behaving like an arrogant fanboy.

Re:Plenty of blame to go around

[blang]

No, if you read my whole post, I made the same point as you, that she didn't get what she wanted and needed.

However, I also looked ath the price. $1100 ids much more than most people need. And this girl did not seem to possess any of the traits of a power user that needs a powerful machine.

And if you note my critique of ubuntu advocacy, you woudl inow I am not a fanboy.

I suspect you are less than a one-bit thinker.

Maybe my post was too long for you, since you seem to have room for only 1 chunk of information in your short term active memory, as opposed to the more common 4-7 chunks.

Yes I am arrogant, but you are a pedant. I have always despised pedants and will always do so. They are little people of no consequence.

Re:Plenty of blame to go around

[bill_mcgonigle]

find it hard to blame Verizon as well, since it is non-trivial to do automatic setup via CD for linux.

None needed. Their DSL, at least around here, uses DHCP these days, no longer PPPoE. So, the default Ubuntu settings should be fine. (I mean, except for not installing a crapload of adware on the User's computer.)

A one-page document on how to configure e-mail settings should suffice, for people who still use ISP-provided e-mail.

Re:Plenty of blame to go around

[ion.simon.c]

You must not have carefully R'd TFA. Had you done so, you would have noticed that the Ubuntu choice came while she was ordering the machine. She attempted to change the OS *before* the machine was shipped, not after she recieved it:

Schubert says she ordered her laptop online at Dell.com expecting to buy your classic bread-and-butter computer.

She didn't realize until the next morning her laptop defaulted to the Ubuntu operating system.

"It's been a mess," she said. "I regret ordering the computer."

Schubert says she never heard of Ubuntu until learning that she accidentally bought it. She called Dell the very next day and says the representative told her there was still time to change back to Windows.

FTFA, used without permission, (probably) Copyright 2009 Dan Cassuto: dcassuto@wkowtv.com

Re:Plenty of blame to go around

[ion.simon.c]

an obscure, server-centric operating system

You are aware of how minimal the difference between MSFT Windows Server Edition and MSFT Windows Desktop Edition is, yes? It really boils down to some UI changes and a few disabled "server only" features like DFS.

Re:Plenty of blame to go around

[DaveV1.0]

and, of course, that has nothing to do with the fact that linux is server-centric and poor on the desktop for the average user.

Re:Plenty of blame to go around

[ion.simon.c]

*points* *screams "TROOOOLL!"*

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[mikael_j]

Your post was modded funny but my experience with end users has taught me that these days the average user who calls the helpdesk/tech support seems to have at least one desktop and one laptop, a lot of families have 2-3 laptops and a couple of desktops. And somehow at any given time at least three of these machines are non-functional due to various layer 8 problems...

/Mikael

Re: That is all.

[TaoPhoenix]

Tron?
The Prisoner?

Or that SF story (Star Trek episode? Some novel?) where the guys didn't know how to do advertising?

Windows may not have helped...

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no guarantee, even if she had Windows installed, that this woman would have been able to figure out how to get Verizon working. Or that she'd know how to install MS Office.

It seems to me that there would be a learning curve either way and that this woman was in no great hurry to learn anything.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Risen888]

Having read TFA, I don't see any evidence whatever of this individual "trying to use it." I see a lot of "trying not to use it."

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Big difference between ignorant and computer illiterate.

Ignorant is, for example, someone who passes judgment on the vast majority of computer users without making an effort to understand their situation. Ignorance is the arrogance of elitist snobs. It can be fixed, but won't be because that requires self-reflection.

Computer illiteracy can be easily fixed with basic education.

Re: Cursing like Italians

[TaoPhoenix]

Better watch out in South Carolina.

Universities need to be more 'open'

[unconfused1]

My wife recently went back to school at Missouri State University, and I was surprised at how specific all the the classes are as to what platform and formats they teach or use for classes. She is in the Masters of Education program.

Most of the primary schools in the Springfield area have Macs in computer labs and in the classrooms. But every class she has taken so far has been focused on Windows XP (sometimes Vista) with Microsoft Office 2007 for Windows specifically.

We have Macs primarily in our household, and use OpenOffice 3. However a great number of the PowerPoint 2007 files (pptx) would not display correctly in OpenOffice, so she was at a great disadvantage. We ended up having to get a copy of Office 2007 for our one old Windows XP machine.

It would be nice for education to advocate and use more open formats.

Re:Universities need to be more 'open'

[francium de neobie]

You can actually buy Microsoft Office 2004 (or 2008- but 2008 doesn't work well with Spaces) and use it on a Mac. If Windows is absolutely required, VMWare Fusion isn't that expensive either.

Re:Universities need to be more 'open'

[Just Some Guy]

My wife recently went back to school at Missouri State University, and I was surprised at how specific all the the classes are as to what platform and formats they teach or use for classes. She is in the Masters of Education program.

A bad career counselor at Missouri State (was: SMSU) tricked me into enrolling in Computer Information Systems. Things I learned in CIS101:

• All programs use mice.
• You can do word processing in Excel.
• Centering text will get you an "A".
• You can blow off 75% of your lectures and still get an "A".
• The CIS department and the elementary education students they taught were a pack of idjits.

Seriously, I feel pity for your wife. You have to understand that those two schools in that university are strongly oriented toward rote learning.

Re:Universities need to be more 'open'

[GWRedDragon]

The Computer Science department at the school I attend actively shuns Windows users. If you show up to a CS class you had better know how to use bash ahead of time, or you will be sent to the 'how to use a computer' class.

Personally, I like it: forcing people to use a commandline is a good way to weed people out of low level CS courses.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Rasta_the_far_Ian]

She was attending community college, which is supposed to be for everyone ...

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

A few google searches by her would have revealed at least how to use Word or Open Office.

except... she couldn't figure out how to get her machine online (i.e. the Verizon disk wouldn't work...). Kinda' tough to do a google search when you can't access google, now - isn't it?

Granted, it might have been as easy as plugging in the cat-5 cable to eth0 and rebooting (we don't expect a n00b to be running ifconfig, now - do we?), but if she didn't know that, and didn't have any instructions to tell her that - especially if she had instructions telling her to do something else (e.g. install the Verizon software first), and if her instructors insisted on having papers submitted in "Microsoft Word" format... what do you expect?

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[DriedClexler]

Right on. Linux promoters too often fail to look at it from the inexperienced user and think about what can be done to make it easier. Just the same, there's a tendency to view "just google it!" as a substitute for even the most basic help file. Keep in mind that for many problems, the user won't be able to connect to the internet, because that is itself the problem, so they should have *some* kind of help file they can refer to.

FWIW, I've tried to install Linux. I thought I was playing it safe by following the site's instructions, and only installing it to a separate partition so I could always fall back on Windows in case I needed help. Well, the installation procedure told me to do something that guaranteed that a failure of the install CD (which I thought I had safely hedged agains) would, in fact, cascade to my ability to use Windows, thus locking me out of my computer.

So, it's not just about thrownig up walls to newbies; it's a problem of alienating people who have a clue.

lol

[xenolion]

Next head line lady orders from dell and complains its not a mac.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this listed as being humorous?

Because when she installs Windows the thing is just going to get a virus and be unusable anyway.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

2. Hopefully the first class this woman is going to take is a "Introduction to using the personal computer".

I'd imagine that would require her spending a lot of time in the computer lab. Not like she's going to be able to do any of the work on her laptop(unless she install windows on it).

please tag this article:

[feder]

dogatemyhomework

how did she find the ubuntu page on dell's site?

[Anonymous Coward]

it's not like you can accidently purchase one on dell's site. hell, i have to dig through 3 pages of "didn't you really mean to buy microsoft?" to find a dell ubuntu system. and i'm looking for it.

-me

You once didn't know how to wipe your behind....

[Anonymous Coward]

So how can we bridge those kinds of gaps?

You once didn't know how to wipe your own behind. How did your parents bridge that gap? (yes, I see the pun) My guess is that it was not by mocking you and stuffing a blanket in that gap, but by patiently teaching you. Sure, you got stinkfinger a few times and they had to show you more than once, but you learned.

In a nutshell, that is one of the main reasons why the Linux community is viewed as comprised of juveniles: some of members behave like juveniles. The adult approach is not to mock, it is to be patient and teach.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Even more, her school was willing to help her through the issues accepting the assignments in whatever format she sent them.

My kids use Ubuntu ages 4,7, and 9... They now better than her.

Smell test

[jmorris42]

What is relevant is that she received a laptop configured in a manner she was unfamiliar with.

No, what is relevant is her story doesn't pass the smell test. It's an astroturf campaign. Go to Dell.com and TRY to recreate her story. The only Linux you can easily find is the little mini and that ain't what she bought. You have to search on linux in the search bar to find any of their other Ubuntu offerings and the page you get dropped on says this:

Not sure Open Source is for You? The main thing to note is that when you choose open source you don't get a Windows® operating system. If you're here by mistake and you are looking for a Dell PC with Windows, please use the following link.

Assume she somehow managed to get there, which is improbable enough. If she bought after reading that she is not college material. And this ignores the fact she was buying a computer for college and didn't a) inquire as to their requirements before purchase and b) didn't get in on the discounts most colleges have on both the laptop itself and she could have probably picked up Windows+Office at a massive student discount. Colleges are full of nerds who would have been happy to help her either install Windows or learn to use Ubuntu for the price of pizza and her company. The town has a LUG for crying out loud, help was at hand.

Re:Smell test

[supernova_hq]

Not to mention the way she worded the Office problem. She said that she didn't have Office, not that it wouldn't install. Event when you buy a Windows machine, it does not come with Office, you must buy it extra (some come with "Works", but not Office). If she had even TRIED to get Office, she would be complaining about THAT setup.exe not working as well.

Re:Re-read your own post - either a plant, or a mo

[Rasta_the_far_Ian]

I noticed that a number of people mentioned that this person went to technical college.

The term "technical college" can mean two different things in the U.S. - it can refer to a university with strong engineering offerings, or it can refer to a type of community college that is strictly focused on teaching job related skills at a level roughly equivalent to that of upperclassmen at a leading high school.

Generally, admission criteria for the latter are quite low, the idea being to give these people with minimal skills enough skills to become productive in jobs such as auto mechanic, etc.

I suspect this person went to this second type of "technical college".

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[SanityInAnarchy]

I'll second this about Dell. They think "The customer is always right" means "Suck up to the customer whenever possible, no matter how shitty the service actually is."

I bought a Dell with Ubuntu, which is great. I've had to call support so many times I've memorized my service tag. On the last call, they finally managed to remember that I have Ubuntu installed. On some other calls, they would claim things like "This laptop only comes with Vista."

So, I'm not surprised she had trouble ordering the right computer, or convincing Dell to exchange it.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[not already in use]

Yes, we geeks of the world clearly understand the superiority of Linux to windows.

It's comments like this that make me want to disassociate myself from the slashdot and linux community altogether. You think you're enlightened, but you're really just a self-righteous twat.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[DerekLyons]

We geeks tend to live in a bit of an echo chamber and so we can lose perspective on just how ignorant and computer illiterate the average citizen is.

It's more than an echo chamber, it's a deafening chorus of self congratulating virtual masturbation. You see, the geek (even though he won't admit it) shares the same passion as Everyman - the need to prove how much better he is than the next person.
 
Don't believe me? Scroll down and read the highly rated comments.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Only on slashdot would this parent be modded insightful. The humor in the statement apparently fly over some heads.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Petaris]

Its also difficult to do a google search when you have no internet connection. :P

Not that she couldn't have found another computer to do it from, just saying.

Though I remember having conversations with tech support back in the day that just made you think, WTF? Like telling them the modem wasn't working and them telling you to download the latest drivers. :/ This was at a time when very few people had multiple computers and there wasn't any good way to get large (at that time) files from one computer to another. I remember this happening a lot in the Win95/98 days. Even if you had another system the modem driver was often too big to fit on a floppy.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or internet cafe or a friend's computer...

I love a small ISP

[grahamsz]

I'm with mesa networks and they are awesome.

Had a tech out diagnosing some problem and he was quite happy with a root prompt on my laptop to test things.

Saw my router and immediately asked if i'd gone with DD-WRT or something else.

I pay a little more than comcast, but that's a small price to pay for not dealing with comcast.

Re:I love a small ISP

[Anonymous Coward]

If you knew as much as you pretend to you wouldn't need someone at your root prompt. :-P

Re:I love a small ISP

[jmo_jon]

If you knew as much as you pretend to you wouldn't need someone at your root prompt. :-P

And also, if you knew as much as you pretend you wouldn't give a random person root.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[SanityInAnarchy]

Two words: Public library.

There's always a form of Internet connection, usually free, even if you don't own a computer. Public libraries tend to have free computer time, though they may charge for printouts -- reasonable, if you have to take it with you, or bring the laptop into the library (it's a laptop, after all) and use it there.

For that matter, they've probably got wifi, so you bring the laptop in, Google search on one of the library computers to learn how to connect to wifi on Ubuntu (though seriously, that's not hard), then free up the library computer and use your laptop for the other searches.

Calling Wisconsin Geeks

[hodet]

This is your chance to come to the rescue of a stranded little cutie! Leave your parents basement, let the sun hit your face, the cold fresh air will make you come alive!!! I didn't read through all 630 posts because I am too lazy for that, but am I the only one looking at the picture? vavavavoooooooooooom!!!

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[SanityInAnarchy]

It works out of the box.

The problem is, the only way for this to be any closer to working out of the box is if we either got every single company like Verizon involved, or bundled vmware and XP, which kind of defeats the point.

It's not just that the reaction is stupid -- how else are we supposed to deal with someone who believes they need this Verizon disc to get online? What would you suggest as a way to make Linux easier to get online than it already is (just plug in a network cable)?

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Windows for everything."

Wrong. They think

Windows is everything.

Enormous difference there. Perhaps the key difference. Meanwhile OSS is bragging about fsync() honesty and IO improvements. lol

Defamation fo character

[Anonymous Coward]

The TV station had best be careful they are portraying this woman as so stupid that it borders on defamation of character.

Try the Apple iRock

[SparkleMotion88]

If the computer doesn't do what she needs it to do in the first place, why does better security matter? She could put a rock on the desk, call it a computer and be just as productive and free from computer viruses.

I understand security was one of the primary motivations behind the development of the Apple iRock. You get all the social benefits of owning an Apple product with absolutely no security concerns or learning curve. The user interface of the iRock is completely free from the buttons, dials, and LEDs that clutter up competing products. Plus the iRock comes in your choice of 4 fabulous colors.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Gerzel]

This isn't about her poor attempts it is about the poor support she is receiving.

A. Someone should tell her that OO.org will do nearly everything the MS Office does. I really can't imagine her classes using anything that wasn't covered esp if she was only typing up papers.

B. She didn't contact Verizon because I know from a friend's experience that they do have at least some support for Linux users(or rather those that don't figure out how to do it w/o the disk).

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you. Rather than arguing about saying "Linux isn't for everyone" can we all just agree that in this case "college isn't for everyone?"

One thing we forget today is college isn't for everyone, even community colleges.

But manufacturing is still moving offshore, votech schools are disappearing and to get a decent job nowadays you need that piece of paper...

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[mdielmann]

Yep, looks like that problem solved itself.

hello world im a retard

[Anonymous Coward]

I failed to read directions therefor its your fault and i should be compensated!

whatever, same as spilling hot coffee on your lap and suing the big M...

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[SanityInAnarchy]

No, the correct solution here is to put a PDF on the CD with instructions, if that saves you money -- otherwise, just distribute a manual.

Getting online should not require a wizard program, and the only reason Verizon provides one is so they can spread branding and crapware on every computer to connect.

Is this from the Onion or is it April 1st already

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean, come on. Is this real?

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[DaveV1.0]

Interesting. So, because you probably can't drive a tractor-trailer across the country without inadvertently breaking the law and then back it into a dock designed for rigs that are 25 feet shorter and I can, will you agree you are a very stupid person?

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, it's even better than that. She dropped out of technical college because she couldn't figure out how to make her computer work.

Then I'd say she made the right move.

Fear of Technology is the problem

[coren2000]

The woman is an airhead.

No she isn't. Simply because a person doesn't understand modern PCs doesn't mean she is an airhead. I bet she can do a thousand things you cannot.

Modern computers are complex pieces of equipment that have been stigmatized as "easily breakable" and "something you don't play with." When I was young I would get in so much trouble for playing with the computer because it was expensive and my parents were scared I would screw it up (thank god I ignored them). This leads people do attempt do to *exactly as they are told* when it comes to PCs.

The airheads are the people who don't do what they are told but SAY they did.

This means that if the school tells the girl to use MS Office, she does; insert a disk to install the internet, and she does. no questions asked. if she cant do these things, then she is screwed because she is under the perception that she shouldn't try playing & learning about the computer.

The problem isn't the girl, nor is it dell, nor is it Ubuntu. The problem is society being afraid of technology and being so scared about "screwing it up."

This is what we as nerds/geeks have to fight against. *Stop being afraid of technology people!*

Re:Fear of Technology is the problem

[commodore64_love]

>>>I bet she can do a thousand things you cannot.

An advanced knowledge in Kama Sutra still doesn't erase her stigma as an "airhead". It merely makes her more fun to have around.

(ducks a spitball)

Re:Fear of Technology is the problem

[commodore64_love]

>>>When I was young I would get in so much trouble for playing with the computer because it was expensive and my parents were scared I would screw it up

I was lucky. My computer was my computer (Commodore Plus/4 first, then a 128, and finally an Amiga 500), and I was free to do whatever I wanted with it. My parents never touched "the thing" figuring I knew more than they did. Every kid should have his own personal computer - it's the only way to enjoy the freedom to learn.

Re:Fear of Technology is the problem

[Mr. Firewall]

I bet she can do a thousand things you cannot.

Nine hundred and ninety of which require a vagina....

Re:Fear of Technology is the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

The woman is an airhead.

No she isn't. Simply because a person doesn't understand modern PCs doesn't mean she is an airhead. I bet she can do a thousand things you cannot.

It's not that I _can't_ suck dick and take it up the ass, it's simply that I prefer not to.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[CodeBuster]

Did the school she was attending have NO public computer labs anywhere on campus? She could have gone to the public lab with a pair of surgical gloves (those public keyboards can be really dirty after all) and looked up whatever she needed. Most university computer labs also offer printing services either free or for a nominal fee per page. Seriously, if you cannot shovel a bit and solve some basic problems on your own then maybe you aren't ready to attend college.

Multiple faults

[Anonymous Coward]

There are two faults here, neither of which belong to Ubuntu.

Number 1) This young lady should have done more research. A computer is an investment, just like a car. Most people don't just consider price as the deciding factor, but they weigh many points, one of which is whether or not the car they are about to purchase suits their needs. A simple google search would have produced a plethora of information about which to choose. It's entirely possible to do your online school work with Ubuntu, unless your school requires some type of proprietary windows-only software to be installed.

Number 2) It's great the Dell ships PCs pre-installed with Linux. However, I don't think they should be recommending them to anyone. A tool is only as good as the person who wields. The average user is simply not going to be familiar enough with Linux, especially if they are used to Windows. That isn't to say that the average user CAN'T use Linux, it's just that they typically need a bit of hand holding at first.

I use Linux at home, and have for quite some time, but rarely do I recommend it others.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[krygny]

Yeah a lot of people really have no concept of the context in which they are doing something on a computer. I was helping a female co-worker in another department recently and I asked her something like "Were you trying to do that through Outlook or Internet Explorer?". She slowly turns to me with a blank, wide-eyed expression, raises her hands and says "All I know is, I come to work, I log in and I do my job."

And that's ALL she knows.

I KNEW it!

[bbbaldie]

I KNEW there was something inherently evil about Ubuntu! Now, to uninstall it and put Vista back on so I can learn something...

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[DustCollector]

She called the local news because Dell said it was too late for her to change from Ubuntu back to Windows. She wasn't asking for tech support from the news station; she was asking the news station to mediate the dispute, which is a pretty common request.

And how many Windows users have problems?

[John Sokol]

  Windows screws up all the time, people get stuck and can't get there Internet working, or worse yet, a paid for copy of Word locks you out for a license error. Or even the whole OS disables itself!

What resources and recourse do you have?
Zero, zilch, squat!
Ever call MS tech support.
It's is my definition of HELL.

Why do you think these over charging Geek Squad guys are doing so well!

  And so this clueless woman, would have been equally clueless in Windows too! Maybe she is just to clueless to even take the online class in the first place.

Maybe she should have gone to the Library and finished her class if it was so important. Or some Internet cafe.

lame

[Anonymous Coward]

How about she has some cheese with that Wine.

See what I did there?

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this listed as being humorous? /. generally bemoans the fact that normal users don't use Linux, and that people just assume Windows for everything. And yet here is a normal person, trying to use it, and finding it frustrating and causing her problems, and people mock her attempt.

I can mock her because I believe in social Darwinism. She will fail school and die off to make room for better, smarter, and stronger individuals.

Seriously, if you can't even function in the world to the point of helping yourself, my pity won't be wasted on you.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Sentry21]

This isn't completely uncommon though. Over the years, I've seen a LOT of 'linux advocates' who tell anyone who'll listen (and some who won't) that their lives would be better, a pristine utopia, if only they used Linux. Give up MS Office for OpenOffice, give up Photoshop for the GIMP, give up games entirely, and bam!

But when people have problems? These are the first ones to jump into the fray, telling people that they did something stupid and wrong, or that they just have to do one simple 14-step procedure, or that they just need to recompile something, and so on.

This attitude has been getting better, but it's still prevalent in a lot of circles. Linux is better, therefore if you can't use it you're dumb. Never mind that a lot of people are clueless about computers, and want something that will work the way they expect it to (or close enough), and never mind that many college kids today are not just used to XP, they have been using XP for seven years (nearly a third of their lives), Linux is obviously better and if it doesn't work for you you're stupid, so get a clue dumbass and join the revolution, because it's better, idiot.

There are lots of reasons I've stopped using Linux; the userbase is one of the big ones. I don't want to be associated with the vocal minority that spouts this nonsense.

No Optical Drive

[BaDooDoo]

I did not read TFA, so correct me if I'm wrong but... Was this woman smart enough to purchase an external CD-Rom drive or not (judging from the rest of the article she probably wasn't). Did she realize she was ordering a computer that did not include an optical drive? Again, maybe, maybe not. I'm sure if she had called Dell and said I can't install my "Windows Only Verizon DSL CD" any tech support person with half a brain would tell her she had purchased a computer without an optical drive! Just how did she expect to install software from a CD to begin with? There are a lot of holes in this story if you ask me. The fact that the woman knows enough to blame "Ubuntu" but shows such ignorance towards anything else computer related makes me think this is a B.S. story. Also, why does she need to refer to it as a "Windows Only Verizon DSL CD"? Seems like the Windows Only portion was a plug. (i.e. smart enough to know the O/S is the problem but not smart enough for anything else) Also, if given the choice of purchasing a machine with Windows or something you had neveer heard of called Ubuntu, wouldn't any rational person knowing very little about computers (as this woman appears to be, knowing very little about computers that is, not necessarily rational) go with a Windows machine instead of something they had never heard of? The price point is not that much higher for the XP model, so I don't see this as a point of contention. As an aside, I owned several Dell laptops back in the day and always found their tech support to be top notch. Far better than the horror stories I heard from other manufacturers. I have heard the customer service has fallen off over the years, but to me this story sounds a bit far fetched. Whatever, my $.02. It probably wasn't worth the 5 minutes it took to respond, but this article is just asinine.

Gee Wiz

[fwarren]

How is this news?

Mac User can't run Quick Books 2008, business fails.

Woman dies of thirst, bought wrong brand of water filter for her refrigerator.

Woman loses job, could not get to work, bought wrong weight of oil for car.

Woman starves to death. Bought months worth of tuna fish but it was packed with peanut oil and she was allergic to it.

Woman loses lottery, filled out lotto with crayon instead of pen.

Woman can't make phone calls, bought cell phone not compatible with her cell provider.

There are plenty of situations in life where someone can buy something incompatible and it wont work. Or something that takes a little work to get working. Also in the news water is wet

Couple Observations

[HermMunster]

None of the issues she had appear to be due to Ubuntu. They appear to be in this order:

1) she didn't get what she wanted -- didn't know what she wanted and maybe randomly picked, but what she says she wanted was a bread and butter PC.

2) She didn't know how to get her DSL active without the CD.

3) She didn't know how to create .doc files without Word.

First things first. A couple of questions:

1) What if the CD for the DSL activation didn't work? Would she still have skipped 2 semesters (which is almost a whole year of school).

2) Did she realize that it would have cost her money to purchase Office? If she didn't know that would she also have dropped out?

The point behind these questions is that it seems far too questionable that any one or both of those issues would have resulted in someone deciding not to enroll for not one semester of college but two. If something that simple was happening just about anything could have set her off and caused her to decide not to enroll.

There are computer labs, there are neighbors and friends, there are computer shops to help configure and repair--what's more important going to anyone of those or wasting a year of your life by waiting for a solution to any of those two given problems? So, she didn't waste the time, but she did delay her education for a year. And why not more than 2 semesters as it seems no one has given her a solution yet.

And for someone whom it seems is unable to accept anything but the status quo she seems pretty well posed in the picture, as if she's using it.

On to the Verison DSL. She should have called Verison and had them activate her modem or send a technician out to do it, or get friend's laptop to activate the modem.

The obvious problem with that is that Verision wants to take ownership of her computer by branding it and by tracking her via software they install. I generally uninstall that stuff when I see it and I inform them that it is optional software completely unnecessary. So, she could have borrowed a computer or had a friend come over and activate the modem but she didn't know it because Verison wasn't performing full disclosure as to what that software does and whether it is necessary once the modem is active.

She may not have been aware that Office costs a pretty penny, unless of course she knew this and was after the college's student & home version of Office (for non-commercial use only). And she didn't know that using crossover office or even Wine she could have it up and running.

She probably wasn't aware that she also could use Open Office, which many pointed out here. And yes, there are many formatting issues and yes, instructors do grade you down for mis-spellings and poor formatting--they only give you so much credit for the actual content of what you write.

But nonetheless if they were using the proper filters she could have used ODT as her file format and it would have been up to them to ensure that they used a product that could read it and format it properly, as ODT is an ISO standard. In this sense she would have been right and they would have had the burden to accept industry standard file formats that are accepted by a world-wide standards organization. Which is what the schools should be doing as they are governmentally funded.

Foremost in all this the issue had nothing to do with Ubuntu nor its usability. Her installation of the Verison CD could have failed under Windows, easily. There are many problems that crop up when installing drivers and software under windows and if that was sufficient to stop her education under Ubuntu it should have been sufficient to stop her education under Windows--so this is a no-go for blaming Ubuntu.

Her college stated they'd take whatever format she chose to submit her assignments in showing that at least they had some modicum of technical knowledge so Open Office documents submitted in ODT format should have sufficed. The end result is that she let her educati

Re:Couple Observations

[Anonymous Coward]

I run Ubuntu on my home pc and take online course.

Our lab is open for around 13-14 hours and contains everything necessary to complete your assignments.

I find it hard to believe that her school did not have *some* type of open lab for her to use.

Maybe "tech school" == "vocational", but *still*!

[zooblethorpe]

Reading elsewhere, I think you're right, Rasta. That said, minimal skills enough skills to become productive in jobs such as auto mechanic, etc. should theoretically involve knowing when to ask for help -- and dropping out of college for two whole semesters instead of finding someone to help her strikes me as either A) hard to believe (i.e. the story is a fake, or there are other factors we're not being told, like maybe she didn't have the money, and is instead blaming her situation on the computer snafu), or B) indicative of someone for whom a level roughly equivalent to that of upperclassmen at a leading high school is still beyond her reach (i.e. a moron). And, by saying "moron", I mean this not as a pejorative, but rather a descriptive -- "a mildly mentally retarded person". Dropping out of school, not because you can't figure out a consumer electronics device, but because you can't figure out how to ask for help implies an extremely limited and impaired capacity for judgment and rational thinking.

Cheers,

Fokked up the arse hole.

[skybuck]

I see no problem here, she got what she paid for ;)

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[MightyYar]

I don't blame her for sicking the local media on Dell. But the fact is that she called the news before she called Verizon, and after she quit school. That's insane. A perfectly-functioning laptop should not force you to quit school. Hell, I'd like to think that I'm resourceful enough to stay in school even with a BROKEN laptop. Can't she access her school from a computer at the local library?

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[MiniMike]

Maybe the Dell rep talked her into dropping school?

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Some Mod's choose to Mod insightful for post they find funny so that the poster gets Good Karam for the post.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[meist3r]

I could try, and I would probably do everything wrong just as you predicted. But hold on: Did you take a test? Did you get instructed to do that? Yeah, you did? See. Huge difference. You understood that you would need some special kind of training to drive a rig that large. Can't jump out of the Prius in one of those I guess.

If I REFUSE to take instructions (or don't even invest the slightest bit of interest in what I'm told) and then screw things up I'd definitely have to live with people calling me a very stupid person. Yeah. That chick in the article bought a new computer which she knew was cheaper BECAUSE it had Linux. Yet, she didn't even think about learning even the slightest bit about what Linux means to her as a user in exchange for the money she saved. Very Stupid indeed.

Then again, what do you work for Dell in customer service if you don't even know (or probably didn't read the memo?) your products? Is there a specialized Ubuntu customer hotline or are all the reps trained to know at least the teensiest bit? Anyone can figure out how to start a text processor in Ubuntu. Hell, I bet I could reverse a tractor-trailer into a dock after looking it up on the internet often enough. But if I don't even Google it ... I deserve to be called a very stupid person.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if she cannot get online, how can she google for anything.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Man you are out of date, don't you know we went to VM machines a few years ago? It's just one 'working' computer, and two that are virtual.

dell and modems

[zogger]

Why does Dell not support modems and offer a built in modem that just works with Ubuntu? (I am assuming by your post you work for them) A lot of people (millions, a not insignificant number) still use dialup and/or dialup is all they can get. It isn't an option on their website, specifically the 530n desktop model on sale now. This is a long solved non problem given the correct modem, and at Dell's scale and so forth, should be something cheap like a 20 buck internal card modem option. Yes I know some aftermarket modem can be made to work, but when you offer a slew of options, it seems to be a glaring omission. People who order a bundle like that will most likely want to get online when the package arrives, you are sending the customer out to some *mart to shop, it becomes an annoyance factor, bad customer experience.

Re:dell and modems

[Cynic9]

It isn't Dell's modem that didn't work correctly, it was the Verizon CD.

Re:dell and modems

[centuren]

The Comcast CD that came with my Internet self-install officially supported Windows and OSX, so I could install it on my laptop at least -- or so I thought until I tried. It also specifically required Internet Explorer 5 for Mac, a product not available even through the MS website anymore.

Of course, the whole situation was moot. Those install CD-ROMs aren't required to use the modem. I just called Comcast and told them to activate my modem, and I was online in minutes.

Verizon DSL is similarly not limited to Windows. The article actually says that Verizon supports Ubuntu, and that they are going to send over tech support.

This really shouldn't have made news anywhere, it basically amounts to "Woman has trouble setting up her Internet connection, complains to the press before receiving support from her ISP."

Re:dell and modems

[spazdor]

Mod parent up.

"Woman has trouble setting up her Internet connection, complains to the press before receiving support from her ISP."

You have summed up everything that needs to be said about this story. I'm not even going to bother reading past this comment.

Re:dell and modems

[mdrebelx]

Then Comcast has made the experience a little better, or you got in touch with the right tech. When I attempted to connect my service about 2 years ago they told me they could not activate my modem without Windows. I politely tried to get them (several techs - because I called back hoping to get one that could help) to see how ridiculous it was to require Windows and I was told that they did not support "fringe operating systems" and they suggested that I borrow a friend's or a neighbor's laptop or computer to complete the hook-up. After an hour and a half of this nonsense I finally raised the white flag, pulled out my business laptop (XP) and connected within 5 minutes. Making a stand for the principle of it turned out to be pointless.

Re:dell and modems

[coastwalker]

This story continues to support my view that what constitutes news these days is actually just light entertainment.

I particularly like the hilarious pictures of troops pitchforking babies into furnaces.

I suppose I shouldn't complain, all I have to say about the story is to make a bad taste joke.

The alleged woman is obviously in need of an alleged education which she is no doubt receiving in spades now.

Totally fake

[Anonymous Coward]

I had to really hunt for my Dell laptop that came with Ubuntu. The sales woman even tried to sell me Windows instead (TWICE) and I had to tell her I didn't want a Windows license.

My only complaint is they didn't have 64bit Ubuntu installed... ;)

Woman in photograph

[johnw]

So is the photograph accompanying the story of the woman in question, or is it just a photograph of *a* woman in case we don't know what a woman looks like?

Re:Re-read your own post - either a plant, or a mo

[jafarr]

Imagine the wake of destruction to her life that happens when she loses her keys.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[DaveV1.0]

One word: samzenpus

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[azadpanchi]

Did you actually read the whole article?

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[elkstoy]

That's great that your grandparents know what a google search is. Someone should get kudos for that. As for the rest of the world, we can't say that. I work with people both in an office environment and out working service orders out of trucks. Most folks in the office know what a google search is but that is stretching the limit of their computer knowledge, except what is necessary for their job. The people that work out of the trucks are reminiscent of monkeys banging on the keyboard until they hit the right key or combination of keys. Occasionally one of these guys tries to better himself/herself and ends up in college. Thus, the college girl in this story. We still have a generation or two that need to catch up.

Specialist Mechanics Re:This is a real problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Could you imagine if your car mechanic came back to you and said "I can't fix your car. My new tools have a green rubber handle. I only know how to use tools with a black spongy handle"...

Not exactly, but I can imagine a Subaru mechanic telling me to go elsewhere when I pull up in a Ford Escort.

This is again an issue of specialization. By making computers work in a more general case (requiring less specialization) the computer is more able to assist a larger number of people. Now obviously there's going to be a point of diminishing returns. Is this person on the wrong side of that point, hard to say. But at the very least the argument above is not valid. When the system is engineered to be accessible by all, and it isn't accessible by all, then yes, it's a failing of the system.

Perhaps Ubuntu needs a great big 'HELP' icon on the desktop that links to a skinned version of google for typing in help questions?

Dang, she's stupid

[smchris]

But she's _really_ cute, so she'll get by.

I never know how to respond to this sort of thing that I'm sure other people at /. also get all the time. Is it stupidity (more specifically an inability to generalize out of a real-world problem) or is it just "technie knowledge" that she shouldn't have to know? Frankly, I have to sway toward stupid. If a person that young isn't smart enough to get on The Google and find a how-to she can doggedly follow to set her name servers and make sure Ubuntu is set up for DHCP with her provider's modem, she may have already funked the college IQ test.

Re:Dang, she's stupid

[ion.simon.c]

Mmm.

She didn't even have to do that. A phone call to her ISP and her Uni Helpdesk would have sufficed. She apparently failed to do either.

Cute, stupid, willfully helpless people can all DIAF.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[jimicus]

And then, apparently, her solution [...] was to call the local news!

Which leads me to think that she is on the Microsoft paybook. Her story perfectly fits in the MS war against Linux and open source, and it needs as much media coverage as possible. Remember, spread the FUD.

It's a very high risk strategy with stories like this one, however.

There was always the chance that it would come across as "${NAME} cannot deal with simple problems by themselves. If the toilet paper were to run out, they would walk around for the rest of the day with a shitty backside."

Microsoft's marketing machine is seldom that crass.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[DaveV1.0]

Hold on. Did you say she "refused" to take instructin?

Did she ask for a laptop she needed instruction on? No.
Did she refuse instruction on the computer? No.
Did she know where to get instruction on the computer? No.
Did she ask for a replacement laptop she would not need instruction on? Yes.
Was she told she would not need a replacement? Yes?
Did she in fact need a replacement? Yes.

Oh, want me to make it a bit simpler? How about expecting you to jump out of that Prius with it's automatic transmission and hop into an F250 with with a manual transmission when all you have ever driven is an automatic?

she knew was cheaper BECAUSE it had Linux.

That is an outright lie. From TFA:

Schubert says she never heard of Ubuntu until learning that she accidentally bought it.

And, about this:

Then again, what do you work for Dell in customer service if you don't even know (or probably didn't read the memo?) your products?

From TFA:

"The person I was talking to said Ubuntu was great, college students loved it, it was compatible with everything I needed," said Schubert.

Sounds like someone at Dell not only knew Dell's offering and Ubuntu but was a fanboy hoping to convert someone.

Maybe you should try reading the fucking article BEFORE you post.

she's right

[Corson]

She is right in the sense that regular users make a lot of assumptions (some unwarranted) regarding what they can (or should be able to) do with a computer. That is why most people don't even read the requirements printed on the installation disks. But the issue is more complex than that. The issue is about why consumers buy computers in the first place. It's not for Windows or Ubuntu or MacOSX, but for the software that runs on these OSes.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[sbeckstead]

The unmitigated arrogance and lack of understanding of this post leaves me well not speechless exactly but darn near.
What makes you think she would understand the data that "a few Google searches" would reveal, what makes you think she understands what "a few Google searches" are in the first place. If she did think that she needed the "magic CD" then who are you to say that she didn't. I doubt very much that she could even install the cable modem herself.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, you can thank Windows for labelling IE as "Internet" on the Start Menu of a fresh install of XP.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Astroturfer!!! That was the first thought I had about her. How did she end up with a Dell with Ubuntu on it? I don't think that Dell would have put her off on getting MS software on there. Thought they probably wouldn't do it for free which was probably what she was asking for. What is described doesn't add up.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just think if the headline was something like "Woman claims Windows Vista kept her from going back to school through online classes"?
Fanboys and basement dwellers of all sort would be pouring Slashdot with their comments telling how evil M$ is and how people need to install F*ckubuntu.

Normal people are not ready for this F*ckubuntu crap. I tried to install F*ckubuntu on my parents laptops and they just asked me to please give their computers back with something that works (Windows...).

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

I totally agree. I work with some very smart people. Professionals, PHD level, and I have had to explain how to turn the thing on and off. I mean really basic level stuff here. Its the reality of the world. I just installed Ubuntu on my girlfriends computer, should work for her but I fear anything past basic web surfing and openoffice, and she will be totally lost.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Gattman01]

According to the story she somehow accidentally ordered the laptop with Ubuntu. I am not sure how she managed that because I have to *search* Dell's site to find their Linux offerings, but I digress and that is irrelevant anyway.

1) Go to http://www.dell.com/
2) Choose "Laptops" under the "For Home" menu
3) Choose "Less than $700" under "Price" on the left hand side.
4) Click on the first result, "Inspiron Mini 9n"
5) Order the cheapest laptop
6) Ignore the second line of the specs, "Ubuntu Linux version 8.04.1"

If someone just wanted the cheapest laptop, they could easily order it on accident.

But I agree with you that she's at fault for not trying to use it.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[tux_attack]

another two they are working on,right?

You forgot the scrap & museum computers. I've got an old powermac, an Amiga 500, a VIC-20, and three shells of computers too.

Impossible

[Anonymous Coward]

You cant ACCIDENTALLY order Ubuntu on a Dell laptop ALL BUT ONE of their laptops come with Windows Vista on them and the only one that comes with Ubuntu preloaded costs only $300 and she spend $1100.

FAFSA

[solweil]

Doing student loan stuff online requires IE

Re:FAFSA

[Inner_Child]

Doing student loan stuff online requires IE

No, it doesn't. It's an artificial requirement easily gotten around by ignoring their warnings. I've filled out my FAFSA online for three years using Firefox and Linux, and it's worked first time, every time.

Re:FAFSA

[solweil]

you fucked around with a promissory note with years of debt to test browser compatibility? My hat is off to you.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[MBGMorden]

To be fair, some of those classes are meant to be remedial in nature for people who have either been out of school for a really long time, or for people with a GED or Diploma who don't know how to do those things already (and which case the arguments should be against the criteria for obtaining the diploma or GED, and not the college for trying to patch up the holes).

IIRC my school had similar classes that had some verbage to the effect that while they counted as credit hours towards maintaining full-time student status (basically for the purposes of maintaining housing and scholarships), the really basic classes did not count as credit hours towards a degree.

Similarly there was a basic class on computers, Word, Excel, etc, that was tagged as a Computer Science class (because that's where all the "computer" classes went), but it also had a stipulation that it did not count as credit (even as an elective) towards a Computer Science degree.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

1. She accidentally ordered a laptop with Ubuntu on it. Okay, when she calls Dell, they should have been much more helpful. Yes, we geeks of the world clearly understand the superiority of Linux to windows. However, the customer is always right... If she wants windows, Dell should have been much more accommodating and put windows on the laptop.

That's what I thought at first.
But then I had to wonder if the real reason she stuck with ubuntu is that Dell told her that the price would go up if she bought windows and so she decided she didn't want to spend any more money.

Price

[Anonymous Coward]

Bet she didn't complain about the price.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[tux_attack]

Laptops don't use internal pppoe, verizon is generally an external DSL modem with dhcp.
I don't remember if the account creator is windows only but I believe is is. It works fine on Linux afterwards though.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Darundal]

Using a computer without proper training is most likely going to lead to a system full of malware (viruses/adware/etc...) that could very possibly end up being part of a botnet used for who knows what nefarious purpose. Explain to me how no one else is at risk.

Learning Curve

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux has been known to be very unfriendly to users that start out using it. A lot of programmers don't realize that everyone doesn't speak the same language even if they all speak English. Windows and Macs attempt to make the difficulty curve as small as possible. Linux developers should start realizing this if they want their OS to be adopted.

Re:Learning Curve

[Corson]

I agree with you. But, as you can see, they already gave you a 0 score. That's what happens when you criticize Linux on a pro-Linux board. ;)

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[ILongForDarkness]

Agreed, she shouldn't be mocked. However, I don't think she has a case. Someone selling you a computer doesn't have a responsiblity to find out everything you plan to use it for. Once you say "I'll take it", next comes "give me your payment info". I would be analogous to someone walking into a car dealership and being "sold" on a corvette, only to sue because he can't tow his boat with it. Sorry but it is the customers responsiblity to check that the product means their needs.

They changed the story.. lol

[stonedcat]

The story has changed since yesterday, I still have a copy of the original news post here:

MCFARLAND (WKOW) -- Abbie Schubert paid more than $1,100 for a Dell laptop hoping to enroll in online classes at MATC.

But something stopped her: Ubuntu.

That's an operating system for your computer similar to Windows that runs off the Linux system.

Schubert says she ordered her laptop online at Dell.com expecting to buy your classic bread-and-butter computer.

She didn't realize until the next morning her laptop defaulted to the Ubuntu operating system.

"It's been a mess," she said. "I regret ordering the computer."

Schubert says she never heard of Ubuntu before learning that's when she accidentally bought. She called Dell the very next day and says the representative told her there was still time to change back to Windows.

But she says Dell discouraged her.

"The person I was talking to said Ubuntu was great, college students loved it, it was compatible with everything I needed," said Schubert.

So she stuck with it.

Later, she discovered Ubuntu might look like Windows, but it doesn't always act like it.

Her Verizon High-Speed Internet CD won't load, so she can't access the internet. She also can't install Microsoft Word, which she says is a requirement for MATC's online classes.

As a result, with no internet and no Microsoft Word, Schubert dropped out of MATC's fall and spring semesters.

She also says Dell claimed it was now too late to get Windows and any changes she made herself would void her warranty.

"I'm extremely frustrated," said Schubert. "I wanted to get back to school, but I needed a computer to be able to do that."

27 News contacted Dell, but the company has not responded to us yet.

However, we think we've helped her get back to school.

Verizon says it will dispatch a technician to try to assist her accessing the internet without using the Windows-only installation disk.

MATC also says it promises to accept any of Schubert's papers or class documents using whatever software she has installed.

Since then they've has a viewer backlash and changed the story:

***THURSDAY MORNING UPDATE***

Tens of thousands of people have read and commented on this story, making it one of the most-read stories in the history of WKOWTV.COM. 27 News reporter Dan Cassuto will file an update on 27 News at 5:00 on Thursday. We'll review viewer comments, explain why this story is making some viewers so angry, and explore how quickly it's spreading around the internet.

--

MCFARLAND (WKOW) -- Abbie Schubert paid more than $1,100 for a Dell laptop hoping to enroll in online classes at Madison Area Technical College, or MATC.

But something stopped her: she bought an operating system for her computer she never heard of, Ubuntu.

That's an operating system for your computer similar to Windows that contains Linux. It's highly regarded among some people and extremely popular with certain circles of computer users because it's free.

Schubert says she ordered her laptop online at Dell.com expecting to buy your classic bread-and-butter computer.

She didn't realize until the next morning her laptop defaulted to the Ubuntu

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[heteromonomer]

Why, may I ask, is the parent being modded funny?? He makes a serious point!

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[vadud3]

Hmm.. and the Dell tech could not explain that too her? Interesting.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

We geeks tend to live in a bit of an echo chamber

Your parents didn't furnish the basement either?

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Contrast that average against the avg geek... we probably all have about 6+

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[curtix7]

As a result, with no internet and no Microsoft Word, Schubert dropped out of MATC's fall and spring semesters.

i think someone was looking for an excuse to not take the classes

... what?!?! my car has a flat tire? this is madness! im not gonna be able to go to work for months boss, sorry.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Temposs]

Sure there is some kind of risk. But the question is, is it the kind of risk that the government is obligated to regulate.

That is of course a policy question, but to compare the comprimising and exploitation of information infrastructure to people being injured or dying is rather unhelpful to the conversation.

New: Stupid Women Renders Herself Unemployable

[WarwickRyan]

Stupid biaach.

Less bashing -- more helping...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm just browsing the replies here and I have to ask... How does this post become an opportunity to bash Windows users? For anybody familiar of what killed the Commodore Amiga... This kind of attitude just leaves a bad taste in the mouth of anyone who only wants to take a look at Linux. New users are bound to complain about it -- hell, even I do sometimes.

I've been using Linux for years -- it's all I ever use anymore. Among the many things I like about it is the availability of help from the Linux Community. Most of these replies have reminded me of what I DON'T like about the Linux Community.

I have to wonder how many people offered her help after she complained... or did everyone just "react".

Just lighten up! Wouldn't it be better to fill up these posts with possible solutions (preferably easy ones) to her unfamiliarity with Linux? Rather than kick her head in as soon as she peeks into the Linux world and makes a complaint.

Perhaps some of you should check out this article by Lars Wirzenius on "Advocating Linux" (he helped Linus Torvalds in the original development of Linux):

Advocating Linux

Re:Less bashing -- more helping...

[shaitand]

'For anybody familiar of what killed the Commodore Amiga...'

Not producing enough units. A ridiculous pricetag. Or the brains of the operation cashing out and moving to the Bahamas. Which of those reasons are you referring to?

The REAL problem.

[crhylove]

Is not Dell, it's not Ubuntu, and it's not the stupid girl. Though she is obviously stupid. The problem is that schools should be promoting Open Office and other free programs, rather than shoveling kids money into private corporations like Microsoft.

If I was a school administrator I would mandate FOSS or at least open standards. Anything else is the opposite of education. It'd making people increasingly uneducated. To think, this poor idiot girl is probably PAYING for that "service"!

Re:The REAL problem.

[RocketRabbit]

The schools make kickbacks by forcing their students to use Windows software.

As long as education is a racket, this kind of crap will continue. It's the same with sports - college athletics are supported by the non-athletes. Many of the business schools out there have cutting edge workstations so their students can run Office, while the computer science people make due with older machines. God forbid you walk into a computer lab in the English department at your average school - it's like traveling back in time to 1998.

School's just a business like any other now.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[meist3r]

Don't get me started pal ... oops wait ... you already did... here we go:

Did she ask for a laptop she needed instruction on? No.

From TFA: "But she says Dell discouraged her.

"The person I was talking to said Ubuntu was great, college students loved it, it was compatible with everything I needed," said Schubert. So she stuck with it."

--Discouraged her? What's that? Since when can a company decide what I need? She chose to stick with Ubuntu even though she didn't know what it was. So yeah, she DID ask for a laptop she needed instructions for when she kept Ubuntu despite initial tries to get it switched to Windows. It's HER god damned money and so she should insist on getting what she needs for Christ's sake. What kind of world is that where sales people can "discourage" people so much they buy whatever product they want to sell. Surely not the one I live in.

Did she refuse instruction on the computer? No.

From TFA: "Her Verizon High-Speed Internet CD won't load, so she can't access the internet. She also can't install Microsoft Word, which she says is a requirement for MATC's online classes. As a result, with no internet and no Microsoft Word, Schubert dropped out of MATC's fall and spring semesters."

--So she rather dropped out of school then call someone who could help her set up the business grade laptop she just bought? Or even call the school? Not even Dell on how to start a text processor? She REFUSED to do so quite apparently. Probably for being ashamed of herself. Rightfully so I might add.

Did she know where to get instruction on the computer? No.

--Who do YOU ask if the new car you just bought does something you don't know? The dealer. Right. I rest my case. I bet you my pants someone at Dell (at least that fanboy sales kid) could have told her how to start OpenOffice writer and probably offered her a phone number as well to get some help with setting up the network. I bet even Verizon has some people that know how to set up a network connection without an installation disc.

Did she ask for a replacement laptop she would not need instruction on? Yes.

--Read the article, she asked for it, was told it was no problem but Ubuntu would work. Then took Ubuntu. She only had to insist on a windows machine and all would've been fine. But that would have cost extra so she obviously didn't.

Was she told she would not need a replacement? Yes?

*chuckle* So you say customers always have to believe what sales people tell them about the wondreous abilities of their products. LOL. Good luck with that if you ever land in reality.

Did she in fact need a replacement? Yes.

Uuhhhm, no. All she would have needed was a ~30min crash course in Linux and some fool-proof instructions on how to set-up Verizons service on Ubuntu. Almost to the word exactly what will happen now (from TFA: "Verizon says it will dispatch a technician to try to assist her accessing the internet without using the Windows-only installation disk.")

Oh, want me to make it a bit simpler? How about expecting you to jump out of that Prius with it's automatic transmission and hop into an F250 with with a manual transmission when all you have ever driven is an automatic?

--How about jumping from the Auto-Prius into you Cockcompensating-Monstertruck with manual shift, realizing you can't drive stick. Going back to the dealer, him telling you "It'll be fine, many college kids drive stick" and then going back home? SHE SHOULD HAVE INSISTED ON SOMETHING SHE CAN HANDLE OR TAKE FUCKING INSTRUCTIONS. What's so hard to understand about that? Instead she believed what a Dell sales person told her (she clearly already knew was untrue) and went back home. VERY FUCKING STUPID if you ask me.

That is an outright lie. From

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[orsty3001]

I run into this problem everyday. People have sued us before for installing OpenOffice on their computers instead of Microsoft Office.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

I hear they let people use computers for free at public libraries. Crazy concept, huh?

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[coolsnowmen]

When I moved in, there was a problem with verizon and I couldn't get Internet for a week. So I walked around and found 1 neighbor with open wireless, 2 coffee shops, and a library.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Chris Tucker]

"The average user has at least 3 working computers and another two they are working on, right?"

Reaches out right arm and touches two Macs that are online and doing stuff. Didn't have to lean over to touch the farthest away Mac, either.

Turns head to the right and sees two other Macs in the bedroom. There's a SPARCserver 20 in there as well.

There's a Mac G3 "All In One" that needs RAM, a CD/RW drive, some hard drives and A/V card. That counts as "being worked on", right?

Well, Cisco was supposed to teach you the ritual!

[Medievalist]

Here's the part about dealing with telcos that your CNA trainer must have skipped:

You: a squirrel has chewed through the FioS line, please send a tech.

Telco Support: Please repeatedly perform dozens of nearly random acts that demonstrate your social inferiority to my status as High Priest of Telco.

You: Sure thing!

Telco Support: What kind of computer are you running?

You: I have a desktop and a laptop. What do you recommend for best service?

Telco Support: Arcane and expensive mass-market product with obsolete features, bad support, firewall turned off and never patched, version the vendor no longer ships.

You: By amazing co-incidence, that is exactly the version I am running right here! What luck!

Telco Support: Twiddle many knobs and break lots of working stuff as I tell you to do things that cannot possibly fix a physically damaged line.

You: Sure thing! I like being helped! (be careful, here, you need to pause for appropriate amounts of time after each nonsensical suggestion is tendered so the Telco Rep will not figure out that you are watching TV and eating nachos instead of wasting your time actually doing the things he tells you to do).

You: Well, gee, it still doesn't work, even though I've reinstalled Windows three times now and stuck tender portions of my anatomy in the lightbulb socket as you instructed. What should we do now?

Telco Support: We'll have to send a truck out. It will be there sometime between 2 AM Friday a week from now and 3:15 PM Christmas next year. You will have to stay in the house between those times to let the technician into the house.

You: Sure thing, I love waiting in line! Thanks! You know, it's been such a great pleasure working with you an' all, I'd like to send you some cookies, how can I do that?

Telco Rep: We know that one. Wait for the truck.

You: OK, I'm off to my dentist appointment, I love all the drilling!

Now you wait for the truck to show up. DO NOT LEAVE THE PHONE UNATTENDED UNTIL THE TRUCK SHOWS UP. The truck will not come during the period the telco says it will come. The technician (who is not your enemy, incidentally) will receive a call from the dispatcher that goes like this:

Dispatcher: Some toad in Blooker street says his line's out. Most likely stuffed cheese and salami into his CDROM, but you better go check it out. Here's the number. If nobody answers just forget about it, his problem will most likely go away or he'll forget about it, I'm going to close the ticket now.

Tech: (Calls number)

You: Hello?

Tech: This is Jim from Telco, I got a call about a line being out?

You: Yeah, a squirrel chewed through the line. I can see it out my window.

Tech: Oh, is it FioS? We told purchasing to stop buying the kind insulated with molasses and peanut butter, but they won't listen, they say it is more cost-effective.

You: Yeah, FioS. It's the black jacket kind.

Tech: I'll be right over.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Cramer]

They do work out-of-the-box. The problem is not the OS; it's entirely the user and their expectations. She puts the Verizon CD in the drive, but then cannot find the "D:" drive. Even if she did, it's Linux, it cannot run the windows software on the CD. She's told to bring up Internet Explorer, but there isn't an IE icon anywhere to be found. The average windows user, no matter how computer skilled, would be confused by an Ubuntu desktop, but they should be able to figure out what's what.

The real issue is why Dell didn't give her ("the customer") windows ("what the customer wants") when she called. If she called after receiving the laptop, then I can understand the complexity... she'd have to send the laptop back to be reimaged (or find a friend with a Dell XP cd.)

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[elrous0]

A lot of people, especially those on a budget who don't really know what they're buying, just go for the cheapest computer they can get. I suspect that, when she originally bought it, she was just looking at the school's basic requirements and cut every corner possible on everything else. So when she saw the cheaper Linux OS option, she went with it without really knowing what she was doing.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Cramer]

The Westell DSL modem (slash router) takes care of all that for you. You simply need to give it your username and password, which will be the first thing it asks you when you point a browser... any javascript capable browser... at it. (no matter where you go, until setup, it will redirect you to http://launchmodem/ -- which is it's own nightmare.)

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[elrous0]

Imagine sitting in front of a screen full of seemingly random hexadecimal code, with a low-level assembly programmer condescendingly explaining it to you as if you were a child, using terms that made no sense to you. Then suddenly he leaves you alone with it after telling you "Now USE it, stupid!" That must be what it's like for non-geeks trying to learn what we would consider basic computer skills. It's scary and intimidating.

Most people lack our comfort with technology and our intellectual curiosity.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[orsty3001]

You're average person in America is very dumb. Constantly I am asked if I sell cable internet, as a person or have people that can't fill out their own check because they don't know how to read or write. It's very sad to see how some people are. Then they blame us for their problems and expect us to keep them up. Shouldn't the weak die off?

Linux isn't the Panacea some of we geeks say it is

[Anonymous Coward]

I was quite keen to put linux on a machine having never tried it before, so just for geeky reasons I wanted to do it. I had good reason to as well having put together a new PC from components, some old, most new - for a hundred quid or so, and then realised that Vista - which I didn't want - would quite possibly cost me as much as it did to build the machine. The version of XP which I had installed on a previous incarnation of bits of the PC was by now flagging up that it wasn't legitimate on the newly configured machine, and eventually stopped working. I reinstalled XP - aware that this would happen again, but also put Ubuntu Linux on a second hard drive as a dual boot set up. Well it installed easily, it worked OK - I thought I'd have loads of fun with it. How wrong I was - try as I might I could not get the wireless internet to work - a very straightforward arrangement with a Belkin router and Belkin wireless dongle. I had to find drivers, I had to install bits to run the drivers in some windows emulation mode - blah blah blah. It was longwinded, unpredictable, unreliable, and I just got fed up of it. Eventually I scrubbed the drive and found another distro - Mandriva - this time it worked with comparatively little tweaking. However my kids - who are the main people using the machine, just found it dull - yes they used open office, they used firefox (as they do on windows), and yes they used some version of MSN Messenger (and OK I know that Messenger is a copy of earlier geek ware and not the other way roun) - with their same contacts imported from their MSN accounts - but they preferred XP - and eventually I searched around and hacked it so that Genuine Advantage didn't stop it from working - I did pay for the OS in the first place anyway - albeit on a vastly different machine. Compare that with my experience with my friends laptop - "Can you come around and get it to access our internet connection ?" - well I looked at his router - Sky standard issue Netgear wireless router - noted the SSID and key; switched on the laptop. In less than two minutes I'd found the SSID as a wireless network - I typed in the key, and surfed the net. "Will I be able to share the printer from my other machine ?" he asked. I setup a workgroup on his XP machine. Looked back at the laptop (running Vista Home Basic) - and found it had already found the workgroup, and it was a simple matter to include it in the group - like a click on a drop down menu. Now there are lots of reasons why I as a computer buff and jaded Microsoft user would still in spite of all this want to use Linux - but in all honesty for the non-expert user - and that is most users - it would be pretty nonsensical to buy a PC with Linux - unless you were sure that you had a geek friend to help you.

ISPs Always do this

[xianthax]

agreed, she should have dropped out of college anyway as clearly using a computer is too hard... however i feel her pain a bit on the ISP issue, out of the 5 computers i own, none run windows, every time i change apartments i have to spend 45min on the phone with comcast to get someone on the phone that can activate my account without the stupid app on the CD.... cheers, x

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[FrankieBaby1986]

And those people should NOT be on the internet, and should NOT be using computers. Computers are not toys. We only allow trained, licensed people to drive vehicles, and specially trained & licensed people to drive large trucks, because while doing so they may cause harm to other people or property. The same is true of the internet. A modicum of understanding of computers should be required in order to purchase internet service. Just the basics, files, folders, executable files, the dangers involved in the internet, etc.

Now, I think that actually requiring a license would be a bit over the top, but at the very least it should be considered societally irresponsible to use an internet-equipped computer without a basic understanding of computing.

idiotic girl

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet she's just a pretty face who knows nothing about computers and doesn't care educating herself.

Re:idiotic girl

[mewshi_nya]

Like most college students, she only wants the paper, not the experience.

Should complain to Verizon, College instead

[adaviel]

Netbooks with Linux are getting more mainstream; even the Economist recommends Linux (for better performance with limited resources). Not just Dell, but ASUS, Acer, Nokia etc. offer these with Linux under the hood. They are aimed at consumers, not geeks. Turn it on, it finds a network and uses (standards-based) 802.11, DHCP etc. to connect. Click on a browser icon, it connects to Google with Firefox. Click on a Word document, it runs OpenOffice. Out of the box. (Windows users must install an Office suite, PDF reader themselves unless the reseller did it) It just works, which is as things should be. If an ISP or public-facing organization such as a college or government department demands a particular operating system or processor architecture to access supposedly open standards-based resources, they should be chastised, not the computer vendor. Just as the highway system works for all models of cars, motorcycles, trucks (and often the odd horse-drawn carriage), rather than only BMWs, the public Internet should work for all networkable devices.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Hogwash McFly]

Yeah, but that's completely different. With computers, there's no risk of crashing and causing endless pain and suffering to you and others around you.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[elrous0]

Let me try it:

I wish you weren't such a grammar Nazi douchebag.

Was that correct?

slow news day on slashdot

[chicovstheworld]

can someone explain to me why this was even *considered* as a post?

get over yourself

[Anonymous Coward]

So-called "average people" that read the story will know she is full of it just as much as you do.

Smugging it up over the little people is not a good plan for you, since it's pretty clear from what you wrote that you yourself are "average".

In other news:

[Anonymous Coward]

Chopsticks made me starve to death.

Re:Re-read your own post - either a plant, or a mo

[FrankieBaby1986]

Not to mention.. hasn't ANYONE heard of a library??? You know, that place that practically every town has that might have a computer you can use for a while for FREE?

We should flood her with kindness and good will

[Anonymous Coward]

I can think of no better opportunity than this to break down barriers to the adoption of Linux. It just invites a Hollywood ending and notoriety. It also is an opportunity to point out how much Microsoft has unfairly dominates the market. We might even get useful information about what still needs improving. If people start using Linux without realizing what operating system they are using then we are doing something right. We are getting closer to world domination. Which means at some point this user becomes emblematic of a huge pool of potential users that can be the advocates of Linux for the least likely Linux adopters. Are we and Linux ready to embrace her and become beacons of sweetness and light.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you read TFA? Do you know that technical colleges offer all sorts of vocational training? Do you know that the college in this case offers courses even in making pastries?

Regardless of the woman's intents, this should be a wake-up call to Linux users. It isn't as easy to use as XP or OSX, and championing it to the Slashdot community accomplishes nothing. If you want to make a difference, I believe there's an open source project somewhere out there to work on...

One more issue: why insult her? I know I've certainly put off plenty of things due to lame excuses. What if she has a full time job? IT workers (even me) can become jaded that the rest of the world doesn't function on highly livable salaries. Life isn't as easy for some people.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Archades54]

A google search would probably make her find some advertisement to some dodgy program that wants her to pay a pile of money to do what openoffice can do for free. Google isn't that friendly to computer illiterate people... What needs to happen is people make a nice lil list of great programs, where to get, how to install with images and people might take it up more.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[elrous0]

It was also a lot lonelier and much less useful.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[kms_one]

Even if she had gotten a Windows machine it wouldn't have had those "MS Office icons" you speak of since that is not part of Windows. She would have had to pay at least another $150 in order to get Office on the laptop (from Dell...cheaper obviously elsewhere)

Welcome to Computers! Presentation

[Neuroelectronic]

Ubuntu and other user-oriented distros should create a presentation, ran when a user first turns on the computer. It could introduce them to everything, and tell them where they can get more support and have their questions answered.

MS Word on Ubuntu

[Anonymous Coward]

What she needed to do: Find OOo Writer icon, right click it, select "Rename", type "Microsoft Word", hit enter. Problem solved.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[highlander76]

This woman chose to address her problem not by calling Verizon for help, not by contacting her school for help, did not contact Dell for help. (She called Dell before she got her laptop trying to change it to Windows but was persuaded against that - that is wrong but for other reasons).

In short, she chose not to solve her problems, but to blame someone else.

I wish some other journalist will investigate this story to find out the real story. This story is not very deep on details why she didn't ask for help. But it does make for a good venting thread :-)

Slashdotted Boner

[desinc]

"Tens of thousands of people have read and commented on this story, making it one of the most-read stories in the history of WKOWTV.COM. 27 News reporter Dan Cassuto will file an update on 27 News at 5:00 on Thursday. We'll review viewer comments, explain why this story is making some viewers so angry, and explore how quickly it's spreading around the internet. "

Looks like somebody just got a boner from being Slashdotted!

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[jc42]

Maybe you should try reading the fucking article BEFORE you post.

Ob: You must be new here.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[ImYourVirus]

There is a difference. This woman didn't want to try to use it, she got stuck with it on accident and then failed to make use of it.

"she bought an operating system for her computer she never heard of, Ubuntu"

That was her bad.

A few google searches by her would have revealed at least how to use Word or Open Office.

Sure if she was able to access the internet, which she wasn't...

And has it been shown that she really has a verizon card?- or does she just think she needs the magic cd that came with her cable modem?

Doesn't state whether she had a cable or dsl modem. Granted cable would be easier to setup usually just plug it in and go, but dsl would require some advanced configuration that it seems she is unable to do, obviously since she bought an os that she knows nothing about.

I blame Verizon

[TerranFury]

I blame Verizon -- for insisting that you need to install an assload of proprietary crap on your machine to get "The Internet." She was just following their instructions.

Internet access is a goddamn utility. The electricity company has no right to tell clueless people that they need to use special light bulbs before they can plug in their lamps; Verizon has no right to insist that people install their bullshit software so they can access the Internet.

No, here's what they should do: Give people an index card or a brochure, or a simple fucking piece of paper with the following instructions on it:

1 - Plug the ethernet cable into the computer at one end and the router at the other.

2 - Go to webmail.verizon.com to access your email.

* Additional, more advanced technical instructions can be found at www.verizon.net/somethingsomething

That's it. 99% of people will be satisfied by this index card. The other 1% who want to configure Thunderbird will look at the asterisk and go to the online instructions.

Internet access is a utility; it is not a software package. I swear we're still fighting the ghosts of Compuserve and AOL.

Re:Well, Cisco was supposed to teach you the ritua

[JohnBailey]

Aww.. English ISPs are nowhere near as entertaining. Last time I called mine with a problem, when it came to the OS bit, being a Linux user allowed me to cut the usual support script nonsense and go straight to the ordering of the line check. They were even quite happy I was using my own router.

Re:Well, Cisco was supposed to teach you the ritua

[JWSmythe]

    HAHAHAHA

    Thank you, you really made my day.

Slashdot effect?

[fwice]

***THURSDAY MORNING UPDATE***

Tens of thousands of people have read and commented on this story, making it one of the most-read stories in the history of WKOWTV.COM. 27 News reporter Dan Cassuto will file an update on 27 News at 5:00 on Thursday. We'll review viewer comments, explain why this story is making some viewers so angry, and explore how quickly it's spreading around the internet.

Re:Slashdot effect?

[Anonymous Coward]

explain why this story is making some viewers so angry

looking forward to the news media style trolling ^_^

Year of the Linux Desktop

[Xerolooper]

Answered your own question.

Why is this listed as being humorous?

Because:

/. generally bemoans the fact that normal users don't use Linux, and that people just assume Windows for everything. And yet here is a normal person, trying to use it, and finding it frustrating and causing her problems, and people mock her attempt.

What everyone seems to be missing is the fact that Verizon and the College both worked with her to "fix" her computer. This is a big improvement over the "sorry not compatible" response of the past. Perhaps Linux really has finally arrived.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[DaveV1.0]

Sadly, no. So, I should know better.

The movie upside is HUGE!

[Anonymous Coward]

I can see the movie version of this now: Ruthless People 2: Lt. Bender: GIVE THE LAPTOP TO BOZO, DROP THE GUN, AND PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR. Dell Support: Who said that? Lt. Walters: This could very well be the stupidest person on the face of the earth. Perhaps we should shoot him. Lt. Bender: IT'S THE POLICE DEPARTMENT. Dell Support: Really? Lt. Bender: NO! WE'RE THE NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION! I'll have my people call your people.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[ImYourVirus]

Well, obviously on her other computers. The average user has at least 3 working computers and another two they are working on, right?

I don't think she has any other computers much less ones she is 'working on' perhaps you should replace user with geek, I don't know any 'average users' that have enough skills to work on a computer much less have more than one, so no not right. From the fact that she bought a computer with an os she has no knowledge of that should show that she has no idea what she's doing, and should of just gotten windows. Moreover she tried to exchange it and got 'talked out of it', uh lady if you don't know what you're doing then exchange it don't keep it.

Reading the article...

[Anonymous Coward]

In reading the article it says she ordered the computer from DELL.COM. She must have been able to get on the internet somewhere in order to order the computer. And also, she signed up for online classes. (Implied if she eventually dropped out). So she either signed up online (thus having access net access) or went to the school and signed up. If she went to the school she could have brought the laptop and asked, how do I set this up? Its a school, you are paying, ask the questions and learn.
She either had net access or the ability to get help, IF and I say IF she really wanted it.
As to the Verizon deal, I can identify. I have the USB720 broadband dongle. There were version of Linux I tried it on INITIALLY and did not get it to work. I thought I was stuck with the Windows / CD only. It was just a couple of days ago I came across an article that said it works with Ubuntu right out the blocks. Had I not come across that article I probably would still think it only works in Windows.

Why pay for tech support...

[Anonymous Coward]

when you can call your local news channel?
Also, the captcha was "sensibly"

doesnt pass the smell test......

[WorkingDead]

To get to the Ubuntu Laptops on the Dell web site, you really have to look for them. From the laptop page you have to go most of the way down, past all the pictures, and in the bottom left corner you can choose open source PC's. That takes you to a page with a warning:

"The main thing to note is that when you choose open source you don't get a Windows operating system. If you're here by mistake and you are looking for a Dell PC with Windows, please use the following link."

You then have to click on the "Shop for Ubuntu" button or "Shop for FreeDOS" to proceed. From there you can choose from one desk top and five laptops. There is one $300 netbook, two $500-$700 laptops, and two $1100 laptops.

Even if she managed to make it here accidentally, why would she buy the most expensive laptop? It just doesn't seem like the broke college girl thing to do to pass up the $600 studio latptop that comes in different colors and designs and choose the expensive, black only, dedicated vid card, expensive one.

And quite frankly, the Verizon wireless internet cards are expensive as well.

This story really smells like FUD unless she is leaving out some very important pieces of this story.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[pha3r0]

I concur. I fixed my neighbors PC the other day (282 adwares, 59 trojans/viruses) and while I was doing so I "upgraded" her to firefox and got her some plug-ins I thought she would find handy.

After the changes were made and I finished giving her a tour of the new options, and plug-ins and how to use the google search box instead of going to google first etc.., She asked me a puzzling question. "Do I still have the Internet though"

I won't detail the rest of the conversation but needless to say I recommended she get a copy of Internet (not explorer) for dummies.

Re:Linux isn't the Panacea some of we geeks say it

[lukas84]

I've never seen a Windows user without a technical background being able to do things like sharing a printer.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

A few google searches by her would have revealed at least how to use Word or Open Office. And has it been shown that she really has a verizon card?- or does she just think she needs the magic cd that came with her cable modem?

I'm sure if she had managed to get her internet working she would have been able to google the above items.

The issue is that there is no support for her at her internet provider if she isn't running Windows or Mac OS

BUNCH OF B.S.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have installed THOUSANDS of systems with Ubuntu, Kubuntu, and others. I have gotten them all installed to Verizon, QWest, Comcast...didn't need no stinking disk...
I attended the University of Phoenix for 3 years using Ubuntu. I graduated with a {insert your favorite number here} gpa, and used a combination of Microsoft Office (via CrossOver Office) and Open Office to do all my work.
Either this gal is really that dumb, or this "story" is a troll hunt.

Re:Well, Cisco was supposed to teach you the ritua

[bkr1_2k]

Exactly. That's why I tell them exactly what they want to hear until I get someone that can actually diagnose a problem. If you know Windows reasonably well, and linux (or OS X or anything else) you can generally fake it well enough that they don't know the difference.

When you actually find the issue is on their end by mimicking the expected response, they respond quite quickly.

Of course I've spent many many hours on the phone with Comcast, Verizon, Cox et al. figuring this routine out, but I can finally get through fairly quickly, now that I don't really need to.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

In a modern society, not knowing how to do an internet search is similar to not knowing how to tie your shoe. Most children can do this by the time they are 10 years old.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Bryan Ischo]

That's actually a good thing. Linux is not appropriate for 99% of the general population to use. It just isn't. I don't know why everyone wants it to be so badly, but it isn't. Linux is for a technically competent end-user who doesn't mind having to work to learn and understand their system. Any non-technical end-user who wants to use Linux is 100% REQUIRED to have a Linux-competend friend or family member on call to help them with technical support as they need it, which they will.

I think it's GOOD for average computer users to think Linux is too hard for them. BECAUSE IT IS.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

My dad does not know the difference between his desktop, hotmail account, firefox, IE, notepad, etc. . . Doesn't know what a program is. . . Thinks I can fix his windows machine fifty miles away with his hotmail password.

Have you ever gone to online classes?

[shaitand]

This is not a case of merely needing to 'type up papers'. Ubuntu and Dell are not at fault here. The school is. It has become standard practice among schools providing online courses to use materials that are firmly tied to MS Office.

All those features that nobody uses... the schools do. They use them routinely and stubbornly in course materials that students must use and interact with. For example, in one online class I had to turn in an assignment where a number of steps in a process were represented as colored and labeled objects in a word document. The objects were draggable and had to be placed into the appropriate blanks on an outline of a process then the document saved and turned in.

Knowing steps in a process and completing work demonstrating it is valid. But this is hardly the only way that 'fill in the blank' can be done. In fact, it represents a total waste of effort on the part of the school developing a pretty doc, ties students to office, and increases the costs of classes to pay for crap like this.

MSWord

[msclrhd]

The article says that the online university requires MSWord. However, it fails to mention what version the university is using and what version the woman is using.

If the university is using Office 2007 and sends a docx file to the woman, who is using an earlier version then she won't be able to read them. There may be converters for version N-1, but if she is using one that is even older then she is out of luck.

Now consider it the other way around (like happened with a UK school IIRC) and she sends a docx file to the university that cannot read it because they are using asn older version.

And do the Verison CDs work with Vista?

I'm not saying that (if the story is indeed valid) that there aren't issues with Ubuntu (in this case with Version not supporting Linux, the university for explicitly requiring MSWord and for Dell not listening to its customer), just that using Windows may (or may not) be without compatibility issues either.

It's Dells's fault

[Anonymous Coward]

The customer asked for Windows. Dell gave her something else. The customer is displeased by what she got because she didn't want it in the first place. Dell is to blame.

If a woman walks into a pet shop and asks for a parrot (fell free to make Monty Python jokes), but is given a german sheperd, is it the dog-breeder's fault that she makes complaints about her pet?

Ubuntu is not for everyone. Ubuntu is for human beings, but only the ones that are prepared to spend a limited amount of time to re-learn something they already know how to do. If a person is unwilling to open a menu marked "Applications" (just to see what it contains), then click the subsection "Internet" (again for the fun of discovering what it contains) and then click the "Firefox Web Browser" (for the fun of seeing what might happen), that person is not the target audience for Ubuntu.

Re:It's Dells's fault

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah but why would you use a crappy program like Firefox when you can use Internet Explorer with WINE?

Bullshit

[GregNorc]

If you're at the enterprise level, I'll admit OOo does tend to break when encountering complex excel macros, but for web browsing and writing papers for class, a linux laptop should work fine. I switched to NeoOffice (Openoffice with Aqua widgets on OSX) when I went to college... 2 years later other than an Access database I worked on in the labs, all my assignments have been done in Open Office.

This is a failing on Verizon's part, for not including some sort of pdf or readme on their cd for OSX and Linux users.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[WCguru42]

it's not her fault if she doesn't know that OpenOffice.org would also work.

That's assuming that she's even heard of Open Office. It might come as a surprise to most people here, but many many people have never even heard of Open Office. I submitted a paper by mistake in whatever the default Open Office file format is (not .doc) and my Computer Logic professor told me I had to resubmit because he couldn't open the document, he'd never seen the extension. This is a Comp. Sci. professor and they didn't recognize it. What's the chance that a regular person would.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[WillDraven]

I signed up for an "intro to computers" course this semester thinking "I can handle this at 8am, sleep through it and still get an A probably." Of course I have now come to find out that I got the worst instructor for it, who's an attendance nazi and assigns several research papers throughout the course.

Ironically I'm going to end up spending more time doing work for my "mickey mouse" class than my other two classes: archaeology and engineering graphics (SolidWorks) which both have very laid back professors. My Solidworks prof. even told us yesterday that if we install the software at home (thank you mininova!) we can come in to class an hour late every day from now on.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[nasor]

You would think that at the very least she would try going to a local computer store and explain the problem to them, at which point they would surely have told her what to do. The fact that she apparently didn't even try something as basic as that before dropping out of college over the issue is indeed beyond stupid.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[WCguru42]

If you're unfamiliar with any of those topics they are very useful. You have to imagine someone who didn't grow up with computers. If you're an older adult and want to learn how to use those confusing computers that your children always talk about then these are just the sorts of classes you would take.

Or maybe you've been working in a manual labor field where computer knowledge isn't needed. Then you want to move to an office position (a questionable decision at best), you're going to need a basic understanding of computers, the internet, windows, e-mail, word, etc.

Basically, these are not four year universities, these are 2 year craft schools to help someone with a high school education get a better living.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[serialband]

This woman is beyond stupid, though. She dropped out of school because she couldn't figure out how to make her computer work. And then, apparently, her solution to this life crisis wasn't to ask someone knowledgeable about computers - it was to call the local news!

RTFA. She called the local news channel's consumer help center to get help with contacting Dell for a mistaken order. Dell was at fault for giving her the run-around and not helping her.

The news got Verizon to help set up her internet connection properly with Ubuntu. Verizon only uses windows install disks which were not helpful for her situation. They also got the online course to accept her work in Non-Word format.

Since the woman got a resolution to her consumer product problem, she wasn't stupid. It was Dell being stupid and giving her the run-around causing her grief with an unfamiliar system. Sometimes you need consumer advocates from the local news to prod the companies to resolve a problem for you quickly.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

One generation? The current one may be better, but the one after that will be so used to everything automagically working that they might even be more clueless.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

And then, apparently, her solution [...] was to call the local news!

Which leads me to think that she is on the Microsoft paybook. Her story perfectly fits in the MS war against Linux and open source, and it needs as much media coverage as possible. Remember, spread the FUD.

This is more effective publicity for Apple. It paints Linux as too dificult to use, and Windows as the overbearing monster you can't escape. The whole article reads like the black and white segment in an infomercial of the user fumbling helplessly with Main Brand W and Alternative L as the narrator begs the question "Isn't there a better way?"

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, Verizon IS that stupid. I had a two hour ordeal dealing with them to get an Ubuntu box on DSL because the (outsourced) tech kept asking me what version of windows i was using. He could not comprehend that i would NOT be using windows.

I'm not all that technical, but the trouble was that Verizon was waiting for the installer CD to put something on the PC to send them a message to turn on DSL. After I managed to escalate the call they fianally gave up and turned on DSL. I entered an address and Ubuntu found it just fine.

This story is a M$ plant as any normal clueless person would have returned the computer to Dell thinking that "Windows was broken" and that didnt happen.

Still Verizon needs to buy a clue. Bring the damn support back to the US.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

"You thought the opposite of stupid loser was community-college graduate?" - Sheldon, Big Bang Theory

Re:Re-read your own post - either a plant, or a mo

[rahvin112]

You forgot the 3rd Scenario.

She dropped out or two semesters of classes, her parents (or other important figure) found out so she found an "excuse" to give this figure. An excuse that has gone much further than she would have likely liked as it's apparently received press attention.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Ykant]

Says you.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[cr_nucleus]

I think you're missing a big point being that a computer illiterate person will have an equally hard time using windows and linux (and even osx btw).

Try giving a windows laptop to that grandma who can't operate a stereo and look at her using it without help from someone who knows about the system.

I sometimes get to help some people who really don't know a thing about computers and they have a hard time using the mouse. They also have trouble finding keys on the keyboard. Don't tell me linux is a problem here, whichever the OS is, they will have the same difficulties.

One thing that i like about osx & linux is that when turning on a brand new computer, you don't get hit with a thousand popups asking you what you want to do about the thousand bundled crapware.

Re:Well, Cisco was supposed to teach you the ritua

[MostAwesomeDude]

By no mean coincidence, this is *exactly* what I do whenever I need a tech to open up the cable box and tighten the screws. (Here in Oregon, sometimes the cable people forget to protect the boxes from rain, and when that happens, the cables slowly dislodge and rot and rust away. I'd be sad, except it's fucking Comcast.)

As a former Sprint Tech

[spk037]

I had the misfortune to support dsl for a number of years. In our situation, we partnered with Earthlink. We would send a windows only cd out with the modem for installation to create a acct for a pppoe connection. The cd, when run, would connect the user with the earthlink acct creation webpage, where the user would create his user/pass combo, then the cd would configure the modem with this info. and yeah, install crapware. it sucked. Account creation was probably our biggest call driver. Why we didnt have the sales person generate the needed acct when the service was ordered always bewildered me. When, as in most of the time, the process didnt work properly , we , as support techs, would log into the acct creation site, input user info, create the acct, walk them thru telneting into the modem and configging it. The same went if someone was using mac or linux. The cd wasnt needed to surf but was needed for account creation or we would have to do it manually.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

OMFG!

And is "keyboarding" even a word?

What do you expect here.

[jskline]

This is blatantly a troll article. Plain and simple. Such utter nonsense.

Re:You once didn't know how to wipe your behind...

[jedidiah]

No, the "adult" approach is to not tolerate helplessness.

If you act like a helpless baby, people are bound to treat you as such.

This girl is basically throwing a tantrum. One typically gets
a spanking or some sort of time out for engaging in this sort
of behavior as a child.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[thetoadwarrior]

These people are also the reason why you should be required to have a licence to use the internet like driving a car.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[penguinbrat]

According to the story she somehow accidentally ordered the laptop with Ubuntu. I am not sure how she managed that because I have to *search* Dell's site to find their Linux offerings, but I digress and that is irrelevant anyway.

The Inspiron mini 9 and mini 12 - both of the "cheap" versions come with Ubuntu, the more expensive ones to the right come with XP...

If you don't know what your looking at when it comes to the "specs", I could see this happening relatively easily...

Ya, its the fault of Ubuntu

[nurb432]

They forced her to use it.

Dell needs better customer service, thats all.

Re:Well, Cisco was supposed to teach you the ritua

[greenbird]

After a day and a half of hold time, call transfers other misc. insanity I'm finally on with the CSR and she apparently has a higher level techie there she's relaying everything from them to me and me to them because HLTs (higher level techies) can't possible communicate with a user. I tell her I can't even ping the DNS servers. She asks what DNS servers I'm using. I tell her and they're correct (had to switch them back from openDNS). So the "HLT" tells her to tell me to try pinging www.somethingoranother.com. I start laughing. She says to HLT: Now he's laughing at me. I explain that if I can't see the Domain Name Server then I'm not going to be able to ping a Domain Name but I'll do it anyway. Took 2 days of crap to get it fixed when I told them what the problem was.

When are these companies going to realize that although people with no technical knowledge are a lot cheaper to higher for tech support it cost them way more in the long run in that a problem that should take 5 minutes to fix ends up taking hours and hours because of cluelessness.

Keyboarding IS a word.

[Petersko]

"OMFG! And is "keyboarding" even a word?"

It appears that "keyboarding" is, in fact, a word.

Perhaps the college in question offers a course on using an online dictionary.

With us, XP Pro doesn't work, but Ubuntu does

[Penicillus]

The reverse happened to my wife. She is a student in Library Science at Wayne State University. They are also a "windows only" shop. When she went to access the lectures for the computer technology course using Windows XP Pro, she could not - IE went into a continuous loop, and Firefox reported that the lectures were not accessible because of DRM. We tried to access the lectures on 4 computers with Windows XP Pro, including two of our own, and two at the library where she works, without success. Finally, I dug a copy of Windows 2000 out, and the lectures came through. A short time later, I was able to access the lectures through IE running with crossover office on Ubuntu, and on Firefox (using Mplayer on Ubunt 8.10) without. Later, we also found the lectures came through with Windows XP home. My wife now looks at the lectures using Ubuntu, and then reboots into windows and does her work with (the required) Office 2007 there.

Just so you all know

[Burn_This_City]

There are current MATC students running Ubuntu posting in the comments in the original article. The cut and dry here is this woman is either lazy, or just not up to par for a technical college.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[corrie]

Is the newscast available online somewhere? I'll search, but I might not find it... Thanks.

What I take away from this...

[gillbates]

Is Microsoft Windows right for you? Take this survey to find out:

1. Am I too dumb to figure out to order Windows when shopping online for a computer?
2. Am I unable to get into a regular college, and must settle for a technical college instead?
3. Do I believe everything a Dell rep tells me?
4. Will I drop out of college if my computer breaks? Do I have no friends or relatives with computers of their own that I might use, or am I religiously opposed to using an internet cafe or the library? Do I even know what a library is?

At first I thought this might be a Microsoft plant, until I realized that even Microsoft is not that dumb. I think what most people are going to take away from this is that if you're stupid, you have to use Windows, and that Ubuntu is the new big thing for the hip pc users.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[pluther]

Her "attempt" deserves to be mocked.

Reading TFA, we find that, first, she ordered the Ubuntu version accidentally. OK, fair enough. Some people prefer Windows. No problems there.

However, when she tried to exchange it, the Dell rep told her about OpenOffice, and that it could do what she wanted. She couldn't easily figure out how, though, on her own. Fair enough, not everyone knows everything about their computer software.

But the reason she deserves mocking is because she then stopped there. After deciding that she didn't want to use Ubuntu, she didn't try to exchange it again.

She dropped out of two semesters of college.

Which she didn't even have to do. If she had contacted the school, she would have found what the newspaper found when they did so: they can accept papers in Open Office format just fine.

If she had contacted Verizon, she would have found out what the paper did when they did so: Verizon does not require you to use the Windows-only setup disk. True, they probably wouldn't have sent a technician to her home to set it up like they're doing now the story's in the press, but they could have talked her through it over the phone.

If she had called Dell back, she would have learned that she could switch to Windows for only $90 more. (And, probably, that OpenOffice has an option to save in Word format.)

But, instead of trying to solve the "problems" she was having, she used them as an excuse to drop out of two semesters of college. Instead of contacting Dell, or Verizon, or even her school, she went to the press and claimed that Ubuntu was keeping her out of college.

Yeah, learning's hard. Sometimes you have to solve problems. Often, you don't have to solve them on your own, but you do have to at least initiate the attempt. If she let something that would have been solved with a couple of phone calls stop her from going to college, she wasn't going to make it through anyway. What would she have done the first time she didn't understand something in one of her courses?

So, yeah, she dropped out, made excuses, and went to the press to validate her excuses. She deserves to be mocked. This story has little to nothing to do with Linux and all about taking some freaking responsibility and putting a bit of effort into your life.

Re:Re-read your own post - either a plant, or a mo

[penguinbrat]

...rather than bother to find someone with half a clue to help her

I've seen this pop up numerous times on this, and that isn't an obvious as it may seem. Geeks are geeks, and likewise we hang out with geeks - I believe any sane shrink will tell you that we tend to hang out with people of like minded personalities. I'm up here in a small community and from what I can tell I'm the only "geek" with in an hours drive from here, and I'm 2hrs from Dallas. I've known many people who may use a system at the office but is clueless on doing something as simple as installing an OS, they just rely on that magic button to do everything.

Just because your not technical, does NOT mean you know someone who is - after all, normally a geek keeps to them selves and is not a social butterfly.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

apparently, she called dell support to get windows installed, but they talked her out of it, without mentioning the "risks". says so right there in the summary

Ubuntu/Linux Distros need to take a cue from XP

[HW_Hack]

Before we bash the user --- Linux distros shoould take a cue from XP. You recall that when XP is first launched it offers to take you on a "tour of windows" ....

All or part of this could have been averted if the new user was given a tour of the OS / GUI features - compatibility - and possible issues (i.e. some PC software will not work etc.). The new user is then armed with some information and ideas on how to proceed.

Also shame on Dell for not having decent Ubuntu support --- having worked in the mainstream PC biz - one would think Dell would want some level of success with Linux. Primarily to use as something to hammer MS with.

FWIW - I sat in on a senior meeting with MS back in '04 and they said in their own words "Linux scares the shit out of them". I'm a serious Linux user and I hope it still keeps them peeing in their pants.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, obviously on her other computers. The average user has at least 3 working computers and another two they are working on, right?

Your absolutely right but to be honest having tried it I'm still running into real difficulty getting Google up on my either my washing machine, DVD player or microwave. Any suggestions? ;)

This womans an idiot.

[Anonymous Coward]

If my wife (who is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but her body makes up for it) can use linux and do her online classes anyone should be able to. This woman is just an idiot.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

The local news actually went with the story? Why would they care?
I suspect this is a planted story. Anybody smell M$oft money?

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[MichaelSmith]

I'm not a conspiracy hound, but maybe you are right... how does one "accidentally" order Ubuntu? It's not an option in their customizer... you have to somehow navigate through to their open source page, which then links you to their open source computers

I saw this article up on (I think) digg. That version said she won the laptop in a radio station contest.

ego of the meek and geek.

[Anonymous Coward]

sorry , if you are not lets say, interested in computers beyond doing office/class work on it, and surfing facebook, as most women in her demographic would be, she wouldnt know that Network icon would get her to the screen to configure network settings. but then even if she did in fact make that correlation, good luck on actually enabling the right tick boxes, and entering the correct information. hell, i dont use linux, but I am MS certified , i would still take on a linux guru to at least look over my shoulder.

ALso, I can bet that a Dell Laptop is cheaper with Ubuntu instead of WIndows. when you are a cash strapped student, money is tight, she was probably looking to save a few dollars. Not knowing that Ubuntu was any different to windows, is not surprising at all.

This is just simply a BS article, from a person who didnt know whom to turn to for help, can't call Verizon, ("i dont know how to use my computer, how embarassing") - Cant call Dell, ("i got what i paid for") - and cant call the school - ("reputation will be trashed, i cant even read the course material on their website!") - and all in all probably felt cheated by big business ripping of the little guy/girl.

If it was your mother/Aunt/Granny, you might be a little more thoughtful.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[MightyYar]

I agree with you that Dell is being a bunch of chuckleheads and really dropped the ball on customer service. I also agree that it was NOT stupid to call the local news to get this rectified.

That said, anyone who drops out of school before making the call to the school's help desk or Verizon's customer support is either stupid, lazy, or both.

Since the woman got a resolution to her consumer product problem, she wasn't stupid.

That's a big jump in logic. All that demonstrates is that she's not mentally retarded and can call for help when in peril. It also shows that she watches TV. She's still an idiot if she dropped out of school over a laptop.

Of course, the whole story sounds fishy and I wouldn't be surprised if the news organization was a little loose with the facts. Or, she could have lied to them to make the situation seem more worthy.

A Bank of America Example

[srobert]

In Firefox 3.0.5, I can only transfer money between banks at BofA's website by loading the transfer page in IE tabs, (which of course isn't available on a Linux box). Otherwise I get:

        "We were unable to set up your Transfers Outside Bank of America service for the following reason(s): * SS2: Missing Information."

I've no idea what that means and haven't found a way to correct it on my end. If I need this service, I've got to access it from an MS Windows box.

Re:A Bank of America Example

[linzeal]

IE runs in wine and BofA xfers work. I have IE 6 running on my ubuntu box just fine. It would be cool if IETabs worked in Linux but eh.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

You gotta admit, it's seriously funny!

(Brought to you buy Ubuntu users around the world)

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

How much easier can it get? The internet thing I can understand, maybe, kind of (it 'just worked' for me), but she wasn't trying to write a document, she was trying to use Microsoft Word. How are you supposed to make that easy? Put a big icon on the desktop that says 'IF YOU'RE TRYING TO TYPE A DOCUMENT YOU DO NOT NEED MICROSOFT WORD, CLICK THIS BUTTON'? Even that would break some sort of trademark or patent I'm sure.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[mR.bRiGhTsId3]

So, you berate your sister for following directions. Its absurd to blame the user when they have justifiable cause to believe they have all the resources needed to perform setup one way, but magically can't.

Ddin't Dell switch?

[SheepLauncher]

Didn't Dell switch to 8.03 so she must have bought this thing awhile ago. She was running 7.10 in the video... And the other funny parts have already been pointed out and i don't feel like beating dead horses

Flash is a Big Deal

[WiiVault]

I would like to second the comment about Flash. I absolutely hate it, but it has sadly become the defacto standard for web video. "Normal users" watch a lot of flash video and until Adobe gets their shit together Linux desktop penetration will suffer. I just hope for the death of Flash.

Re:Flash is a Big Deal

[rusl]

I agree. My flash is getting buggy lately and I'm on Ubuntu 64 bit. I know I'll be able to fix it... but it's a pain. It was working.

I've been thinking about this since I noticed a regular commentator's sig: "Flash is the real enemy, you know it"

But what can we (open source advocates) do about it? How do you kill flash. (as in make it no longer a required standard - i already know how to have it not work proberly when I need it)

Re:Flash is a Big Deal

[mike_93]

There is the big problem with all the distros is that barely any install flash by default, mostly for semi-legal reasons. Linux Mint is one of the few distros that does come with it, and is, IMO, the best. Richard Stallman and co. may not agree, but I think this kind of thing is just what Desktop Linux needs.

Re:Flash is a Big Deal

[Anonymous Coward]

So what? It's not installed by default in Windows either... Firefox pops up a screen asking if you want to install flash, you install flash, what's so difficult here?

Re:Flash is a Big Deal

[ZetsubouTaiku]

I agree, Flash is total crap.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, laugh it up guys. Everyone point at the stupid girl and laugh. Even people enrolled in technical schools have problems using "your" software and you people keep wondering why it just never catches on with the public. If this girl had a problem because she didn't know that Word had a replacment available, what do you think would happen when she's reading instructions about how to install something and it tells her that she needs to compile it?

Yeah, laugh it up. Obviously this is all the girl's fault, couldn't be that Linux is rediculously over-complicated. Shit no, why work on improving usability when we can argue over who has the better fuckin text editor?

Too Harsh

[WiiVault]

I think you are being a bit harsh, I think many of those classes are exactly what this woman needs. Sure that is low level stuff, but it is only worth one credit, and some of it seems genuinely useful. Notice how the Windows classes include instruction in maintenance? That is something, if taught right that is invaluable to the user. And no I am not anti-Windows trolling, simple maintenance is essential to any computer user.

Re:Too Harsh

[trolltalk.com]

Expecting someone to take a computer class online on how to use their computer adds new meaning to the term "lifting oneself up by their bootstraps."

People who can successfully get online and take the course don't need the course. People who need the course can't take the course.

And as many people pointed out, the first thing she should have done was called her ISP.

I'd hate to be the poor sucker who sells her a used car, and then she takes them to court to void the sale because the radio doesn't receive her favourite stations from back home 1,000 km away. Or "What do you mean, I have to check the oil once in a while?"

You can't fix stupid.

Re:Too Harsh

[Anonymous Coward]

too lazy to create an account, but the point of trolltalk.com was that if you are a beginner learning about computers and the internet you DON'T SIGN UP FOR ONLINE CLASSES!

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[WiiVault]

I'm gonna venture the guess that she ordered over the phone not online. Accidents do happen, and perhaps the agent was simply a big Ubuntu supporter and pushed it/thought it would suit her needs, which it would but clearly she is computer illiterate.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the intention of this is for seniors or elderly people to learn how to use a computer. But even then shouldn't this class be taken at a physical location? How are you supposed to take an online class if you don't know how to use the internet?

yes

[zogger]

I know that, I just thought I had a live dell guy here in the thread, so I was taking advantage of it. I was trying to help a friend who's computer croaked last week, and found her that Dell model, but she needs dialup. I told her to go to import mart and get a usb us robotics model as that should work out of the box, but it still isn't an excuse for dell to not provide dialup support as an option,.

As to ISPs being usually clueless with anything but windows, what else is new. I know mine sent me their handy "install to get on the internet" cd, and I chucked it in the trash, a few dollars waste there on their side, and I TOLD them specifically I wouldn't be needing it in the first place, but they sent it anyway. And I just frikkin hate if you ever have to call them up and the first thing out of Abu's..I mean "Mikes" mouth is "which windows are you running?". This is 2009 now, I think that people can finally be taught what an operating system is and that yes indeedy there is more than one. Car analogy..you call up any joe random car repair place and they just assume you have a belchfire car, because belchifre is the biggest. And the person who wants a repair says "what's an engine?" It's way past time people took the initiative and learned just a little bit more about this thing they are sitting in front of. It really is that ignorant anymore, no different from not knowing what an engine, transmission, tires, etc are. If people can't be bothered to learn that much, just some really basic simple stuff... no computer for them, and who cares, those are the same ones who get rooted within five minutes and become part of botnets and just drive their friends and family nuts forever "fixing" their hosed computer and having to "explain" how to navigate a simple menu.

Now, I am not saying everyone should be an advanced administrator guru, I certainly am not, but jeez loweez, these companies (computer sellers and ISPs) should have been doing more to at least try and educate people and at least try to actually be operating system neutral by now.

And it sure is a slap in the face for dang dell to have "dell recommends Microsoft vista!" on the top of the few ubuntu equipped machines web site pages they have. It's cool they started selling them, but still..get the MS ads off the linux pages. And get that stupid MS sticker off of new hardware, got a new LCD monitor for Christmas, another dang retarded bit of Microsoft advertising stuck on the thing. I just want them to go away and quit being..whatever they are, the big bully. A long time ago I didn't care one way or the other about them, but since some years now, seeing how they have done business and all the weirdness that goes on...I have to admit I think they suck, I wouldn't use a single one of their "products" just on general principles now. Just too slimy, and I hate how thew rest of computerdom always kowtows to them. Just a personal gripe. they could have the best OS in the world and pay me 100 bucks to install it and I still wouldn't do it. I don't support the mafia, the mpaa, the riaa, or microsoft, they all are just too slimy and crooked for me. Different strokes.

So...

[medge_42]

...where in Seattle does she work?

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not just "computer" ignorance. The vast majority of people are amazingly willfully ignorant of how EVERYTHING works. A long time ago, I got frustrated by a coworker who absolutely refused to even attempt to comprehend anything about how computers work despite the fact that he would be unemployed without a computer.

"How can you have no interest in understanding how such a vital tool works? This is the thing that lets you feed your family and put a roof over their heads. How can you be content to treat it like a magic box that 'does stuff'? That would be like having no understanding of how your car works. Or how electricity works."

"Dude, I don't know a damn thing about how my car works and I don't want to. If a light starts flashing or it beeps or doesn't work right, I take it to the shop."

And that pretty much sums up most people. They live in a total fog of ignorance and they're comfortable with that.

It's a state of mind that I cannot relate to on any level. It must be incredibly stressful to be so disconnected from yet utterly reliant upon so many different things. Computers, cars, planes, electricity, etc. Absolutely no clue how they work, utterly dependant upon them, and completely helpless when they don't work as expected.

Which leads me to something that baffles me to this day. How can someone have expectations about the way these things work if they don't understand what the things do or how they accomplish those tasks?

You guys are sad

[cmay]

It's really kinda sad how many people here are:

a) Trying to "solve" this womans problems (like explaining how to connect to a DSL routed w/o installing software, or suggesting OO for MS Office replacement). She didn't post a question this is a news article and we all know how to solve her problems, that isn't the point

b) Trying to blame her for being an idiot, airhead, dumbass whatever.

The point is, almost everyone is an idiot, dumbass, airhead. Most people on this site are in the top couple percent in terms of tech knowledge and probably overall intelligence.

Most people are stupid.
They can't figure this crap out.
They never will.

Just remember when you think to yourself "this is easy", for most the population, it is impossible to comprehend. People are dumb.

Heck, we (Americans) RE-elected Bush. Think about that...

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[kzieli]

I totally agree. Just because I know about computers dosn't mean that other people do. The take home lesson here is the need to request assistance. Eventually her collage told her how to submit assignments from OpenOffice. More interestingly the ISP helped her set get connected from Ubuntu. This last point may have been influenced by Media attention. I don't know anything about Verizon, but do know how much of a challenge it can be dealing with my ISP their tech support is not geared to handle anything other than windows.

Nirvana quote out of context

[Alarindris]

Im so happy cause today
Ive found my friends,
Theyre in my head.
Im so ugly, but thats okay, cause so are you.

His friends are in his head, hes not ugly in his head.

Site uses

[zoomshorts]

See Netcraft and witness the old, unpatched crap, INCLUDING Linux.

WOOT

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Darundal]

How so? If someone's usage practices for their machine lead to it being part of a botnet that is used for identity theft, or to disrupt the IT infrastructure of a countries military during a time of war (or even not) then I could see it as being the cause of someone being injured or dieing really easy.

Smells like FUD...

[Greyor]

Great, another story propagating FUD about Linux. I'm not taking issue with it being posted on Slashdot -- it's heartening to see so much discussion about it here -- but the linked article is ridiculous, both in its ignorance and bias against Linux.

I own one of the Inspiron 1525n Dells with Ubuntu preinstalled, and it's worked perfectly for me. I hope her experience from now on is better with Ubuntu, but I wish she wouldn't have caused such a bad publicity stir with the news about it.

Sample bias

[Anonymous Coward]

Before you lament the lack of numeracy in the general population, please note that the test sample here is people who buy lottery tickets.

metoo

[drpt]

since I started using Ubuntu I haven't been able to return to school ( not just because of the court order) beer tastes better, and my dog died

Wait a minute...

[Ungrounded Lightning]

Dude, it's even better than that. She dropped out of technical college because she couldn't figure out how to make her computer work.

Wait a minute ...

Last time I looked you go to technical college to LEARN things like "how to make my computer work".

It's not fair to ding somebody who's ENTERING it for not yet knowing what she's going there to LEARN. If she already knew it all she wouldn't need to go (except for the certification).

Re:Wait a minute...

[theLOUDroom]

Last time I looked you go to technical college to LEARN things like "how to make my computer work". It's not fair to ding somebody who's ENTERING it for not yet knowing what she's going there to LEARN. If she already knew it all she wouldn't need to go (except for the certification).

Yes it is. See that word "college" there?
It means that you should already have some basic knowledge of the world.

This girl clearly didn't have the motivation for college.
Your computer broke? Well then get to the library/computer lab.

Research it. Ask somebody. Keep trying.

It's not a big secret that you can use Open Office to create word documents.
Quitting the first time her life gets even mildly difficult does not bode well for her college career.

The whole "she's just a student" thing it total bullshit.
I was "just a student" when I set up verizon DSL to work with my Linux computer.
I had to read, try things and spend time on it but I made it work.

And just how long did she have this computer anyways before she complained?

Take some ownership for your own problems

[gktozer]

Stupidity is not a defense. Suck it up sweetheart.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[ozphx]

Have you ordered from Dell? They have convenient little radio buttons with happy explanatory text to describe why you need to select them to make your purchase not suck.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Aldenissin]

I have learned from customer service that there are ignorant people, and then there are stupid people. The difference is stupid people want to stay stupid. I think that is what they meant in Forrest Gump with "Stupid is as stupid does.", come to think of it.

I personally have much more respect for a "dumb ignorant wretch" that is willing to learn, than I do any arrogant asshole that just thinks he always knows what to do. People will never cease to surprise you, on both ends of that spectrum.

As far as reading past the first couple of pages, I think Mr. Miyagi said it best, "There is no such thing as bad student, only bad teacher". Meaning, the examples set before society have many of us not wanting to learn. You only have to qualify one thing to be taught something. You have to be interested. Good teachers help.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[trolltalk.com]

NONE of those classes are college-level, and it certainly doesn't take a full course to learn how to send an email. This is stuff that Dummies books were made for. Trying to stretch them out into a course, to make people feel good that they "earned credit" for a basic skill that most 10-year-olds could have taught them in 5 minutes is just reinforcing the "computers are so COMPLICATED" mindset.

Taking any of these courses would do more to hurt your chances of getting hired than just saying "I know Windows and Word, and can use email." You're showing, by admitting to these courses, that you're really out of the loop, and that you have no clue just how far out of the loop you are.

"Technical Schools" like this exist for one thing - to suck money from people by giving them the false impression that they're "acquiring marketable skills."

Update

[stonedcat]

An update has been posted by WKOW, I can't say it's much better than the original article.

Mostly they're covering their asses and calling Ubuntu users hateful.
http://www.wkowtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=9682258

I have the solution for her

[kimvette]

Take the computer, yank the wires out, put them in a trash bag, and toss them in the dumpster. Take the PC and monitor and do the exact same thing, unless you have a recycling center nearby, in which case take the PC and monitor there instead.

Second, never touch a computer again. Thankyouverymuch.

Seriously though, need word on Linux? Get Crossover Office. It runs Office perfectly. In fact, performance will be slightly better than native execution on Windows.

Do you just need to be able to save .doc or .docx files? In that case, use OpenOffice.org and do file -> Save As -> {select desired format}

Do you need for it to always save in that format? Go explore Tools -> options

Now, as far as connecting to Verizon goes. You're doing it wrong. DSL sucks. However, you do NOT need to install their crapware on your PC. If you need it to "activate" your account you CAN talk to someone at Verizon to activate it over the phone. However, I suspect you want to use your PC to connect directly to the DSL modem. Check your DSL modem and find out if it's a model that also functions as a router/firewall (most are nowadays). If it is, enter your network credentials into the cable modem's configuration screens and you're done. No verizon crapware installed, no Verizon branding of any of your system software, and best of all, you can still avoid running Microsoft Windows. If it's a cable modem which is strictly a modem (honestly I haven't seen such a model in five years or so) then go to Worst Buy and spring on a $50 hasbro-class router. If you really don't want to do that, and want to connect your PC directly to the interweb, use any of the zillion PPPoE clients that are probably already installed on your Ubuntu system.

The sad thing is, this is exactly the kind of user who would benefit the MOST from Linux. Freedom from scumware like adware, spyware, viruses, and so forth. When she switches to Windows she will probably connect directly to the Internet on a public IP and her PC will be a zombie within minutes - or maybe a few days if she has Norton or McCrapee on it.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[trolltalk.com]

This is because some teachers of mickey-mouse courses know their classes are bullshit, and that the only way to justify their salary is to enforce attendance.

How does one justify "teaching people how to keyboard" for a full term, except by attendance. Otherwise, if they can't type 40wpm at the end of the class, you have to fail the "precious babies" and that will hurt their feelings, and you won't be able to suck any more money out of them for "Advanced Keyboarding."

Bad tech Support

[sc0ob5]

All this goes to show is how bad Dell tech support is. All they needed to say was that openoffice is compatible and that her internet connection will work, she just might have to call her ISPs tech support as well. It is clearly becoming a problem that these kinds of companies don't make it clear what operating systems they "support". How hard is it to include a guide on the CD to setting up your internet connection in Linux?

What's with all the hating anyway? Isn't this a perfect example of how you can show people the Linux experience? You know, helping other users. The entire philosophy behind Linux. You guys should be ashamed.

it's easier than that at dell

[way2trivial]

You are multiply wrong.
It's easy to find linux on the dell website

go to dell.com
choose 'for home' and go down to 'laptops'

look on the left side.
"Ubuntu Linux"

now- go to dell.com
choose 'for home' and go down to desktops
look on the left side
Ubuntu Linux &
FreeDOS

go to dell.com
go to desktops-buisness-small business
see on the left?
FreeDOS and Linux
64-BIT OS

=

BUT NONE IF IT MATTERS- CAUSE IT'S CLEAR IN THE FUCKING SUMMARY THAT SHE CALLED! NOT ORDERED ONLINE!

RTFS if not the FA next time

(me, laughing cause the captcha is impudent)

Re:it's easier than that at dell

[MightyYar]

CAUSE IT'S CLEAR IN THE FUCKING SUMMARY THAT SHE CALLED! NOT ORDERED ONLINE!

I think you need to call a TV station and get them to help you read the summary. It only mentions calling Dell to correct the order... same as the article.

Re:it's easier than that at dell

[pseudonomous]

Actually, you won't get the full selection of Linux (maybe not FreeDOS either) computers sold by Dell, as of yesterday, you will only see the Inspiron Mini 9 in the home section, if you google search "ubuntu dell laptop" you can find that there are actually a number of additional models available. (not that anything you've said is wrong, I thought I'd point that out though)

Re:it's easier than that at dell

[rusl]

Actually When I bought one (9 months ago) it was certainly possible but not easy to get to the Ubuntu part. The default was to not have it. Also, the price is higher even though it should be lower (no M$ tax, same hardware) which makes it hard to "accidentally" pay more.

I'm not convinced it's a conspiracy either. But, it could be.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[trolltalk.com]

I think the intention of this is for seniors or elderly people to learn how to use a computer. But even then shouldn't this class be taken at a physical location? How are you supposed to take an online class if you don't know how to use the internet?

That's their revenue model. Ultra-low support costs. "Send us an email." "I don't know how. I haven't taken that class yet." "Well, then we'll enroll you in the class." (time passes) "I can't take the class." "Send us an email." "I don't know how - I can't access the class." "Have you read the FAQ" "I can't get online" "Send us an email." "How?" ... person gives up, "technical school" keeps money.

Where do you think failures at customer support go to work? "Technical schools."

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhmm, if she didn't have working internet how would she do the google searches?

(Said as a not too stupid guy who many many years ago ran into this problem on a linux machine that didn't have dialup configured beforehand, and didn't have the dialup manpages installed (oops!))

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Temposs]

At that point you move even further away from the car analogy, because you've now introduced a necessarily malicious entity into the picture who is the only real responsible party, and it requires a whole network of machines to have the desired effect.

Would a single individual besides the malicious botnet creator be liable? Sure, collectively the users of the botnet machines are liable, but you really have to stretch it to hold the individual users in the botnet accountable in this case.

If you remove one invidivual in the botnet, you would still have the same destructive force. In most cases, if you remove one individual from a car crash, the car crash is averted, so the benefits of individual training and licensing for driving are much more dramatic and positive. If you make sure an individual has some baseline level of driving ability, they are very likely to avert their own bodily harm to himself and many others.

Also, death indirectly resulting from IT infrastructure melting down is much less common than car crashes, which kill many people everyday.

I'm not saying I don't think it's important for people to know a baseline level of computer usage, but the car analogy simply does not hold as a way to make a case that people should have to get a computer operator license.

I think in the case of a botnet, general education to the public and a strengthening of the nation's IT security infrastructure is the most effective way to go.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Pharmboy]

The majority do know what a good search is. The majority can't manage to type in a web address in the address bar, and only know how to type the name in one of the spywear search boxes, but they know what google is. Seriously now.

In this case, the lady was not only ignorant (common) but extraordinarily lazy.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Since the woman got a resolution to her consumer product problem, she wasn't stupid.

That's a big jump in logic. All that demonstrates is that she's not mentally retarded and can call for help when in peril. It also shows that she watches TV. She's still an idiot if she dropped out of school over a laptop.

Stupid / Mentally Retarded. Pot(ay)to, Pot(ah)to, Tom(ay)to, Tom(ah)to. yadda, yadda.. :p

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Velex]

Anyone should be able to read, it's your responsibility as owner of the fucking machine to understand at least a bit of how it works. It's this "I don't get the first page in the book so I stop reading" attitude. If you don't WANT to do gain that knowledge you will have these kinds of silly idiot problems all the way. So "I am stupid" and "I don't want to know" are two different things and significant ones indeed. Sometimes a book starts making sense only after you've read it even without knowing what the first couple pages meant.

Thank you, sir! You've made my week!

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[owlstead]

As everybody does. In the library or even more likely, at work. Or a neighbour.

Or as my aunt does, she asks a computer literate nephew. This nephew is paid using home made or Chinese meals and advice about non-technical things. That nephew would be me of course.

It seems that this woman seriously needs to have more friends. How can you have not a single friend without knowledge on computers? Is that even possible nowadays?

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[owlstead]

Oh, I had a third year computer science student ask how to save things in office. The floppy disk icon did not ring a bell, because he did not have a floppy disk (the machine was networked of course). Don't forget that some of these institutions explicitly state that you don't need previous computer knowledge, at least mine did when I joined it.

Of course, this was ages ago, I'm getting old :)

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[MightyYar]

That's true, but I checked and there is no way to "accidentally" order Ubuntu with one of those little upgrade buttons.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[john.picard]

Something else about Verizon. There's a phone # to call to check inet outage info. At least there used to be. At the end of the recorded message, they tell you (or at least did) to visit their www site for more info. How the F#$% am I supposed to do that if it's an outage?!

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[john.picard]

Are you sure this is the "can't fix stupid" demographic? For us 1337 h4x0rz computers are simple. But in reality, they are complicated. If you don't understand that, here's an example for you. I work in a machine shop. Truing a bar in four-jaw chuck is dead simple, even a monkey could do it. Yet if I asked you to, could you?

Never underestimate phone company stupidity

[CustomDesigned]

I have a client who has bellsouth DSL - a business account with a static IP. The ISP owned DSL modem crapped out, and they dutifully sent a technician to replace it. Unfortunately, the new DSL modem is configured like a NAT router to block all incoming connections - and we have no access to it.

I was able to restore email and ssh service via openvpn, but it has been a month, and the client, my boss, and I have tried unsuccessfully to convince half a dozen bellsouth employees that a static IP is not much use with no incoming connections.

At this point, I've advised the client to either downgrade to dynamic IP and demand a refund for the months overpayment, or see if the cable company is any better. I just can't believe how many utterly clueless "tech" people they manage to field.

To be fair though - they are only 1 credit courses

[Tran]

Just saying...

Re:Well, Cisco was supposed to teach you the ritua

[hairykrishna]

I had the exact same experience. The first 'so the internet is down' question on the phone support flow chart was 'what version of windows do you use'. 'I don't' got me put on hold for about 20 minutes. I then got put through to someone who sounded like they were stood in a server room and who solved my problem in about 30 seconds.

A Microsoft PR stunt gone bad?

[dcavanaugh]

Considering that ill-fated PR campaign about a woman who pretended to be a Mac user switching to Windows, when in fact the PR woman WAS the "switcher", can anything be too crazy for a Microsoft ad campaign?

One does not buy a Dell with Ubuntu by accident. Asus EEE? Sure, I saw some at Target. Dell? No.

And she dropped out of college for 2 semesters because she couldn't get a computer that worked? I don't buy that either.

I wonder how many appearances she has to make before she gets a free Zune.

Thirded regarding flash

[Werthless5]

The average user uses the internet for a few things

1) E-mail (so far so good)

2) Casual web browsing (news sites, wikipedia, facebook, etc., maybe the occasional link from an e-mail)

3) Flash video such as what you'd find on youtube or any major network TV home page

This is a huge problem if we want average users to adopt linux.

Also, your concerns regarding OO vs Word are completely valid. I work at a university and greater than 25% of the time OpenOffice fails to load word documents correctly. This prompted me to start dual-booting with Windows on my laptop, since apparently Ubuntu is insufficient :(

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly, and the tech could have told her "login with konqueror and use the "fake windows" feature. I had to do that with my college online courses.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish you weren't such a grammar Nazi douchebag.

Why the past tense?

Present: I wish you aren't such a grammar Nazi douchebag.

Future: I wish you wasn't such a grammar Nazi douchebag.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[trolltalk.com]

Actually, I could. I learned how to mill parts to within a thousandth of an inch when I was 17. It didn't take long to get the hang of it - the hardest part was grinding my own cutting carbide by hand to the right angle, and then mounting it so as to avoid chatter. Not all that complicated.

Same with arc and gas welding. Show me once, and I was able do it.

Same with sewer cuts. Watched one, then was able to do them myself, including the digging, plumbing, and backfilling.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[defaria]

There are a LOT of people (probably the *majority* of people) out there who have no idea what a "google search" is.

Poppycock! I mean damn, George Bush knows what a Google search is. If he knows it everybody knows it! Stated differently, people who don't know what I Google search is I am concerned about as much as people who would see to it to get that much in a fuss as to tip over a candy machine for committing the ungodly sin of not properly dispensing the $0.60 candy bar and thus causing their own death! I say - don't worry about them!

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[trailbrain]

Ok, let's consider this a NOT being a part of the conspiracy theory for a moment. Computers are NOT learned through genetics. Someone had to teach me how to do what I can do with computers. In some circles I'm treated like a God for knowing what little I know. In other circles I'm the lowest of the low.... Why? Because there is so much these machines can do, so much people have done with them that there are a slew of specialities. It's intimidating. It leaves people not knowing where to start. Excluding the possibility of a conspiracy theory, it seems like this person certainly wants to know what she's doing. What's really ironic is that she couldn't find anyone who could actually help her out. I mean heck, we need to mandate that every neighbourhood have at least one "ubuntu guy/gal" across America.

ignorance is blissful publicity

[Anonymous Coward]

excuses are the tools of the incompetent...

those who fail choose to do so...

stupid is as stupid does...

Re:Well, Cisco was supposed to teach you the ritua

[Hucko]

I've forgotten how to use windows :( err... :)

FUD!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

After reading the article, I thought it could have been done better, but after watching the video..... I'm left with little doubt that someone on the staff is intentionally painting a picture of Ubuntu as a sort of knock-off of windows that really sucks, but those shifty Dell folks will try to push it on you. It's a bait and switch! They make it sound like it's some kind of scam, and are offended when Ubuntu users get defensive.

There were other red flags as well. The computer shown was running an old version of Ubuntu... on a new computer?? Hmmm... Secondly they claim that Verizon wouldn't work until the news station was able to get a 'tech support crew' out to her house, and that it's not compatible with MS Office. They make these broad claims and make no attempt to refute them. They don't explain that OO.o is compatible with Office or that Verizon works fine without the installation CD. Something smells horribly FUDdy about this report.

Re:Re-read your own post - either a plant, or a mo

[zooblethorpe]

I certainly understand your point, penguinbrat, but even so -- my mention of "someone with half a clue" does not perforce imply technical expertise. She did not need to find a geek per se, simply someone who could help her with her issues: someone clued in on the campus staff about what kind of computer she should buy in the first place, or someone skilled at cutting through corporate help-line BS after discovering (making?) the initial mistake, or college legal staff to help her browbeat Dell, etc etc etc. There is a plain plethora of routes she could have taken that do not entail anything specifically geekish that would still have solved her issue before either having to drop out of school or go to the press.

Instead, it sounds a lot like she rather incredibly sat on her hands for five whole months, and then the press got involved -- and lo, Verizon said "sure, we can help her", likely thanks to reporters attracting attention to the issue, and the university said "sure, non-MS formats can be accepted". I suspect that this latter issue probably had little to do with the media, and stretches my credulity even further -- if the campus is that willing to be flexible, did she even ask anyone? So I'm left with two likeliest scenarios -- either the story's a fake, or this person is really dim. I'm still not sure which.

Cheers,

How is this stupid?

[__aabvlw4075]

I'm seriously confused as to why so many of you consider this woman stupid. Yes, the solutions to her problems are obvious to us, but that doesn't make them inherently obvious. I know many people who I consider quite intelligent who don't know what an operating system is -- not because they're stupid, but because to them, computers are just a tool. If you didn't know what an operating system is, you'd expect a new computer to just work, and to work like you're used to.

I think the real problems highlighted here are not the woman's intelligence, nor the functionality or usability of Ubuntu (or Linux in general). The problems are 1) Verizon for some reason has an installation CD that requires Windows, and 2) her online classes for some reason require MS Word.

The first problem is silly, because there's no good reason for it. Comcast is very easy to set up with any browser on any OS. You plug in your cable modem, connect it to any computer (any architecture that supports an ethernet card will do), fire up your browser, plug in some numbers, bam. No need for custom software.

The second problem is also silly, because with standardized file formats and several cross-platform, stable, open-source office suites that support them, it's ridiculous for a school to require students to use proprietary, expensive software.

In short, many of you are being judgmental assholes who don't even seem to understand the situation.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Blakey Rat]

You've never been shipped the wrong product? Seriously.

Just a couple weeks ago I was shipped the "Special Edition" of Prince of Persia instead of the normal standard edition I'd ordered. (Didn't get charged the extra $20, so I win!) I haven't personally had Dell ship me the wrong product, but, hell, mistakes are made by every company.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

they refer to Internet Explorer as "the internet"

  they shall be purified by the fires of the fox, loyal underling of our load mozilla

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[wilec]

"Most of the people that I work with (and these are college-educated people, mind you), don't know what a browser is (they refer to Internet Explorer as "the internet"). And no, I'm not joking (I wish I was)."

Reminds me of my experience with the install of my Hughesnet SAT internet service. The technician who preformed the install seemed like a generally technically knowledgeable fellow as we conversed about my old C-Band dish in the back yard. However when it came time to initialize the system he insisted I had to have "the internet available" and my install of Suse 9.0 was just not going to work at all. While he conversed with his helper on placement of cable ties I started a full screen VMWare session of Windows 98 hoping the elder version of IE and ActiveX was not going to be an issue with the "installer". When he came back in and saw the screen he grinned and pronounced "ah there's the internet" as he clicked on the IE icon. We setup my user/site info and initial password and he took my check and left happy. He did suggest I upgrade to XP as it had much a better internet.

As he was picking up I slipped the VM session, entered in the SAT modem address into Firefox to checkout the details and I was also grinning and happy as I setup my new email addy in T-Bird, all before he got out of my driveway. I don't know maybe there was an ActiveX utility involved on the Hughes account initialization page of "the internet".

wabi-sabi
matthew

speechless

[Sam36]

I don't even know what to say but this is classic

of man (and woman) and his (her) tools

[Reverend Nerd]

this will be quite a long post...

I'd like to talk about a relation the girl has with this tool of the contemporary life that is the personal computer. Certainly there are plenty of people around the globe that have in their homes a tool they can no longer understand, in fact, we all have something inside our houses that goes into that dark pit of things that we (even geeks) can't know. I for sure can't figure out without some study how to dig a well to provide clean water for me, but I have one in my backyard... Even though I may have a shovel and all the required instruments, I wouldn't be able to copy it.
This is not old, we are specializing, we have been doing so since the XVII century, and this is forcing us not to look to certain things that we assume it's there and it'll work... at least my well never gave me any problem. Now, it is correct to take these things for granted? I think not.
We depend on a million of tools and gadgets that work for us, but still we know squat about them, some of these tools are so important that without them we could fail on a course, or injure ourselves. But we need them, or at least that's what the TV, the radio, outdoors and our friends tell us.
We resume ourselves to consume these devices, they are as good as food pills: we take one, it solves our problems and we are done with it until next time. We are not interested in USING them anymore, and to use it we must understand at least a little about it.
But since the market of consumer goods and software needs to satiate this "common" desire of easy consumption, we get... well, Windows... and MacOSX...
That's why I think there is this impression Linux is for geeks and initiated people... because it demands us to deal with the machine in a different way, in a way we try to understand a little bit more about it. Linux demands us to USE the computer.

And why is this so frightening for the newcomers? Because everyone is consuming Windows ever since they had to type "win" in their keyboards to have the 3.1 GUI enter in front of the black and white DOS console. And we kept consuming it as the numbers went up, then when they were changed to letters, names and now finally back no a number again. And it was so easy... But one day, the well may dry up and we no longer remember how to dig hole in the ground, and apparently we won't bother looking for solution and will die in a massive drought.

On a more pragmatic way of thinking, this means the Linux community should do a free Windows-to-Linux adaptation guide (so the dummies book doesn't count)... It could be useful...
But I'm a optimist fellow who believes someone will read the manual...

Cheers

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

...and she only even bought that computer because she couldn't get the white-out off of her previous monitor!

Seriously though, if she wants Windows, she can BUY WINDOWS! It's just great when people buy things without having any idea what they are getting, then get upset because it isn't what they want, no? If I, as an attorney, had to listen to this woman's story, I might have "fixed" her computer, but I would not have taken her case, unless maybe she agreed to pay a ridiculously huge retainer (sounds unlikely she had a lot of jack to spare).

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[ElectricTurtle]

Most people don't know how to search Google properly, with boolean elements to actually get what you want instead of a cascade of crap. I don't think it's too much to ask for people to learn to use a syntax for basic logic instead of entering "goose" or "I would like to learn about geese" into a search box. The time saved by "grey OR snow goose -mother -silly" etc. would be worth the minimal effort to understand that framework. Goddamn useless public school system.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Almahtar]

and people mock her attempt.

There was no attempt.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[ElectricTurtle]

Aw SNAP!

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think she is being mocked because she is apparently to stupid to look at the web page she is ordering from. If you go to Dell's website, the practically make you beg to get a computer with Ubuntu on it. Dell's computers come with Windows by default. You just don't 'accidentally' get a computer with Ubuntu on it.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

but how could she do a few google searches if she needs windows to connect to the innernet?

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[john.picard]

That's awesome. I'm glad it's not just geeks chained to desks here on /. I stand corrected. :)

Holy stupid blondes Batman!

[Anonymous Coward]

If this story is true it just goes to show:

Chances are, if you went to college you are a certified moron and have a degree in being a brain dead conceited idiot.

Every IT job I have ever had I was always training/educating the simpleton with the college degree. RTFM illiterate fucktards!!! Alas I digress.

Point being, no amount of "education" at any college will ever enlighten the stupid out of somebody naturally stupid and 98% of humanity is indeed naturally stupid.

MATC help?

[Anonymous Coward]

She could have asked the MATC IT Dept. for help setting up her DSL and open office, and learned something in the process, instead of whining.

Re:You once didn't know how to wipe your behind...

[Anonymous Coward]

Your impertinent reply confirms the stereotype. With attitudes like yours, Linux will continue to labor in obscurity from the mainstream.

Bad Press Setup

[Anonymous Coward]

This actually sounds like some kind of setup to give Linux bad press. Then wait for the flamers to start and say "The linux users are just bad news, we don't want to be around them do you?"
I just hope Dell does not use this as a reason to quite offering Ubuntu. I ordered a Ubuntu desk top from them and it is wonderful. My 5 year old can use it.

blond

[Anonymous Coward]

expected

Re:blond

[Anonymous Coward]

forgot sig:
- Anonymously Cowarding!

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't believe this wasn't "WHOOOOOOOOOOSH!!!"ed already...

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[supernova_hq]

Hopefully the first class this woman is going to take is a "Introduction to using linux".

There fixed that for you.

Every "Introduction to computer" course I have EVER seen has been windows only, unless specifically stated otherwise.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[supernova_hq]

If the other 2 were working, she would have used those up to use the Internet and get her school work. She claimed she could not do her work, not that she simply couldn't use the laptop to do it. This implies that the laptop was her only functional computer.

And the dog eat my homework

[Chrisq]

I wish I had an excuse this good when I was at school. Hell, she probably got M$ to sponsor her to miss assignments.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[CarbonShell]

Sorry, but she IS the problem.

These are the kind of people that will complain if the stuff is not 1:1 exactly how they imagine it to be.

These are the kind of people that will drive over a cliff if there is no sign telling them to stop.

A computer is a tool. If you do not (want to) understand a computer then ask someone to take care of it for you.

A saw and an axe are used for cutting down trees. So your foreman just upgraded from axe to saw.
Who's fault is it that you broke the saw while bashing it against the tree?
So the saw must be the problem, right?

Is anyone surprised about the stupid warning labels any more?

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

The fun fact is that this was a TECHNICAL SCHOOL she was going to. As another poster said...the real lesson here is that college isn't for everyone ;)

You are way too horny

[Anonymous Coward]

"why are the cute ones always dumb?"

If you're referring to the girl in the video to whom the story refers, she's actually pretty homely, but when you're really horny, I guess that would look cute. If guys weren't that horny, then human race would die out.

And she is lazy. She never called verizon's help line to say "Oh, how do i get on the internet with Ubuntu" (which is mind-boggling). She never called up the university to say "Oh, will OpenOffice work okay?".

I'm shocked that she would rather sit there and fail than pick up the phone to get help.

It explains a lot about why the world is a f*cked up place. People will rather fail and die than make a phone call. Or rather, this girl probably "blogged" about it on her "facebook" page. Probably on a friend's computer, since clearly, one needs and Verizon disk to access the Internet [chuckle].

It also explains "Yahoo Answers", but that's a rant I'll save.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[sentientbrendan]

And yet here is a normal person, trying to use it, and finding it frustrating and causing her problems, and people mock her attempt.

"Normal" is a very flexible definition depending on whoever sets the boundaries between normal and stupid. In my opinion a very stupid woman spoke to a very stupid Dell rep who wasn't able to tell her how to start OpenOffice (for fucks sake Applications/Office/Writer -how hard is that?) and relied on very stupid Verizon that can't produce an Ubuntu Linux installer for their silly software package.

Why was she stupid? From TFA, she couldn't use her ISP because they had a windows only setup disk. She couldn't do her school work until the issue was fixed because her school explicitly said "Microsoft Word Required".

Yes, there are ways to work around these issues... but she did not know about them.

Your definition of stupid seems to be "doesn't know something basic about Linux". I happen to know plenty of things that you don't know... probably plenty of things about *LINUX* you don't know, in fact as it's my job to write software for Linux...

By your definition, doesn't that make *you* stupid?

it's your responsibility as owner of the fucking machine to understand at least a bit of how it works.

Huh... so tell me, do you think you know how your computer works? Really? Because most people I know who use computers and "think they know how they work" couldn't explain to me how an arithmetic logic unit works.

People aren't "required" to know how their computers work, and it doesn't make you "smarter" because you know open office can read doc files.

In short, please put your intellectual dick back in your pants. No one is impressed.

The reporter missed important questions

[tkrotchko]

" She doesn't know that she doesn't need to install any "Verizon High Speed Internet CD" in order for her Verizon DSL to function
    She doesn't know that OpenOffice.org can handle her needs for "Microsoft Word" just fine"

I'm mainly surprised she didn't call Verizon to find out how she could set up her internet connection with her computer. She just sat there and said "oh dear it failed"? I'm surprised she didn't call up the university to say "oh dear, I have openoffice, will that be okay?". I have a funny feeling 10 minutes of calls (well, to be fair, Verizon's tech support line would be a 30 minute wait) would have solved her problems.

But people do funny things all the time in real life, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[rusl]

It is hard sometimes if you have hardware issues - and you do... I've got a Dell laptop and still can't get the microphone to work... And this is a machine suposedly designed for Ubuntu Installation (though I had the Windoze version due to a sale)

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[meist3r]

Why are you all repeating the same stupid points?

Why was she stupid? From TFA, she couldn't use her ISP because they had a windows only setup disk. She couldn't do her school work until the issue was fixed because her school explicitly said "Microsoft Word Required".

Oh jeez, now you blame her problem on the school being so retarded as to say "We don't know anything but Microsoft either"? Sorry can't give you that one. ISPs that hand out these discs are lazy, schools that "require" Microsoftware are lazy because they don't want to explain about alternatives (what do Mac Users do there btw? Buy Office for Mac then? I know it exists but to HAVE TO buy it because someone doesn't know his filetypes is a bit far fetched.) If you had read one of my other extensive posts on the topic you would have also read what I'm about to repeat: I bet even Verizon has some people that know how to set up a network connection without the stupid (and usually pointless) installation disc. If she had asked ANYONE (even the neighbor nerd kid) she probably would have gotten instructions on how to set up a network connection the right way. Might even have learned something but nah! Don't wanna ... new computer ... has to worki ... where's ma Start clickie button booboo.

Yes, there are ways to work around these issues... but she did not know about them.

SHE CHOSE to have Ubuntu even after she asked for Windows and was told it was no problem. She ALREADY KNEW that she couldn't work the machine and still took it. That's IGNORANCE. She then proved herself to be stupid by NOT ASKING for instructions when the things she expected to work did in fact not work. Read TFA, she got the laptop, couldn't install her stuff. Asked for a Windows replacement AND STILL CHOSE UBUNTU IN THE END d'oh.

My definition of stupid is not "doesn't know basic things about Linux" it's "doesn't know basic things about anything and doesn't ask or want to know either".

Sure thing, there are a lot of things about Linux I don't know, yet. But I'm at least trying to figure it out instead of sitting down in front of it saying "It's not Windows, I'm lost" like I might have done years ago. At least I ask and read about it.

I happen to know plenty of things that you don't know... probably plenty of things about *LINUX* you don't know, in fact as it's my job to write software for Linux...

Well, one thing you clearly DON'T know is how to have an argument with someone without being hypocritical. Let me demonstrate: Oh wow, so you write software for Linux? I'm so impressed. Intimidated as well. In awe even. Who is it, waving his dick now? Is it still me? Help me out here, I can't tell.

Huh... so tell me, do you think you know how your computer works? Really? Because most people I know who use computers and "think they know how they work" couldn't explain to me how an arithmetic logic unit works.

*duck* Wooah, watch out with that thing. Your intellectual wiener-wave almost hit me in the eye again. At least I just brag about what a great programmer I ought to be and how well I do understand logic circuits. Oh wait, that's you.

To a certain extend, yes I actually do understand how a computer works. I'm no chip designer, could definitely read up more on some of the low-level internae but I have better things to do with my time.

What I meant originally is that she didn't even CARE what might be different about the system and didn't ask. She apparently doesn't even understand the pre-basic function of "icons" and "shortcuts" and "applications" and what an "interface" is and how it might look different in one place from another. That to me is either stupidity or a serious case of the "IDON GIVA FUX". Maybe she should take a computer class before enrolling in an online college. Sadly you can be completely computer illiterate (as proven with her and many

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a computer science major, but still I'd rather prefer to have a damm CD / installation thingy that installs easily and makes things work.

Linux sucks because even to install simple things, you have to waste precious hours searching on google or opening config files.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really. She likely doesn't need to install the 'Verizon disk' to access the internet. My ISP doesn't support me either, but I'm typing to you now. Someone learning how to do things from scratch wouldn't have some preconceived notion about what to expect, so she isn't exactly a computer neophyte either. I think the real problem is that people learn one system, and then turn their ability to learn off. Then when they see a big green button that says 'connect to internet', instead of pressing it, they call the fire department because things are not as before. Linux isn't the same as windows. It doesn't crash. You don't have to reboot all the time. You don't get viruses. Google, Facebook, Youtube, Ebay, Amazon, The New York, London, Chicago and Tokyo stock exchanges all use it for their primary services. So does the US Navy, Army and Air Force. The grand majority (94+%) of the worlds supercomputers run it, including most of the top 10. A new user would not be frustrated. A windows user could be. This girl clearly had predetermined ideas of what should and should not be. I suspect the reporter was no better. Neither were aware of how many people used Ubuntu or Linux. It has not made the mass media, but that's not its fault now is it? Web 2.0 came along running Linux, and she didn't know. Its a pity. All we can do is help the girl out, and get her up to speed. I suspect she can take most of the courses without problem.

For what is worth...

[LuisAnaya]

Although I understand the intention of the newscast to help this young lady, I feel that the overall reporting was overall biased. It's not the first time I've seen this kind of "behavior" on the local or smaller news outlets. One time while reading El Nuevo Dia, they were looking for "Linux" to refute a story they wrote. I guess that the silver lining is that at least its some publicity...

Who do you think you're fooling?

[Anonymous Coward]

Google and you will find. It is perfectly possible to connect through Verizon ADSL.

I know its a petrol car...

[Anonymous Coward]

But i want to fill it up with Diesel you moron. Why doesn't diesel make this car work?!

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[jbolden]

I'd say it was more intimate. People knew each other. Even the largest discussions groups (usenet) would have under 100 highly active members.

Less useful. Yeah.

This isnt humorous at all just geek ignorance

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, this should be a lesson to the linux world in general. Joe average user knows nothing about windows or linux wars. They could care less. But it points out a glaring problem for Linux NOT windows. Linux needs commercial app support across the board and yet its pale in comparison to windows. You can snuff it off and say screw big business but you'd be stupid and a fool.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[MightyYar]

No, obviously I've gotten the wrong product sometimes... a common peril of mail order. However, there is something fishy about the story - I suspect that it was a bit trumped up by either the news people or the girl to get more attention.

If what you say is correct, then this girl was somehow smart enough to look at her shipping notice and see that it had Ubuntu rather than Windows, then call Dell. Here's the bit that smells fishy:

Schubert says she ordered her laptop online at Dell.com expecting to buy your classic bread-and-butter computer.

She didn't realize until the next morning her laptop defaulted to the Ubuntu operating system.

Very, very unlikely that she ordered online and Dell's systems swapped Windows for Ubuntu accidentally.

Personally, I don't think there's any conspiracy... just a girl who exaggerated her story a bit to get the news to help. She probably ordered Ubuntu for whatever reason, was a bit timid about it, and got talked back into it. Later she got buyers remorse, but it was technically too late to return the laptop. The story about dropping out HAS to be BS.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Blakey Rat]

She probably realized it when she turned it on, duh. Where does anything say anything about reading a shipping order?

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[natarnsco]

Okay, this makes more sense now. We were assuming she was taking real courses and would need a word processor to, for instance, write a report or something. When you are taking such low-level courses as "Introduction To Microsoft Word" I guess I can see how not having Word would be a problem. Then again the simplicity of the coursework here may mean that you could use OO.o for a Word class and the "prof" wouldn't even know.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

they refer to Internet Explorer as "the internet"

Yes, and usually these same people think their monitor is their computer. Likewise, they think their computer is their DVD player. OMG

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[trolltalk.com]

Hey, we come from all areas of life. I make my living doing a combination of c/c++ code (custom servers) and php/javascript/mysql stuff, but I've also owned and driven dump trucks and backhoes (Case 580/680/780 - one of each :-), etc. You'd be amazed at how many different skills you can pick up if you stay open to different opportunities.

pete

[Anonymous Coward]

I know! Send her back to the kitchen where she belongs!

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[MightyYar]

Did you read the excerpt that I sent you? She ordered it, and then the next morning called Dell. She did NOT wait until she received it to call Dell.

I think its real

[Anonymous Coward]

If and only if the laptop is cheaper. People are always looking for cheap.

show me your cunt

[Anonymous Coward]

ahaha you stupid bitch

I can see both sides

[Anonymous Coward]

The woman scares the crap out of me. Problem solving and critical thinking are two very important skills to develop no matter what you are doing in life. Paying attention to the world around you also helps.

I personally am a very happy Ubuntu user but I have had several college level classes in Linux and I have developed a lot of contacts in various distro support forums so I can either solve a problem or find someone to help me out. I also help out those who need it if I can. But I would never suggest a Linux distro to someone who either didn't want to learn how to use Linux or for some reason could not learn how to use it.

I bought my Ubuntu laptop eyes wide open and never looked back but I can understand how it could be intimidating for someone who doesn't know what they are doing.

As far as class requirements go, I know it sucks, but I always go out of my way to meet them. If an instructor tells me to use MS Office, I go out and buy a copy. I won't risk an "F" just to keep MS free. I would ask said instructor if OO saved in .doc is acceptable before switching but if they said, "No" I would buy MS Office.
I would also probably run MS office in VirtualBox. :-D

The real issue

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong focus,

The IT stablishment and Microsoft just developed educational apps for formal and commercial software and/or platforms, I reffer to Windows and some times OS X. Linux is margitaned from available choices for students. Only if you are power user you can substitute your Windows workstation by Linux, else you will can't do that.

This girl is just a mere user of computers, she even not known that her PC had Linux and Dell pre-sales department wasnt helpfull before she bought his laptop. All these facts can direct to any plain user to get screwed about their tasks and use habits when they work at their PCs, just like this girl. Communication is the key word in this issue, and force to actual IT stablishment to develop their infrastructure to be compatible with Linux, that is a true democracy, actually we live an IT dictadure.

Regards,

Oscar.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[WCguru42]

I know I shouldn't but I feel compelled.

You really don't understand the concept of a technical college. It's not a typical university or college. It's like going to trade school to learn the basics of a certain occupation. You leave the school with some certificate/degree that precludes that you have a basic understanding of how to use computers and some other specialized task. Please note that these are 1 credit courses, not full 3 credit courses. Technical colleges allow you to upgrade from McDonald's drive through window and get into a low level secretarial or office job. Not everyone was lucky enough to be blessed with a college education or an intuitive knowledge of computers. Think of the people that have worked in Detroit putting cars together their whole lives. When they lost their jobs I guarantee a large number of those people did not know how to use a computer (hell, the concept of a personal computer wasn't even existent when they started working). So don't fault them for being behind in computer literacy.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

OK -- I can understand dropping out for ONE semester -- but dropping out for TWO semesters?

God help us, here in the US -- how are we going to compete with with the determined, hungry and driven workers from overseas?

Whatever it is

[Anonymous Coward]

I want to fuck her badly!

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[SanityInAnarchy]

It is hard sometimes if you have hardware issues

Except she got one specifically designed for Ubuntu. If she's got real hardware issues, well, it's Dell, they'll send someone to her house to replace the defective part. But she doesn't have driver issues.

And this is a machine suposedly designed for Ubuntu Installation (though I had the Windoze version due to a sale)

There are significant differences. For example, this laptop clearly states "n-series", and with Vista, comes with an 802.11n card. With Ubuntu, it doesn't, because that card isn't supported. There are some other, very strange inconsistencies -- with Vista, you can get it with 3 gigs or 4 gigs of RAM; with Ubuntu, you get 4 gigs, no choice.

So, sorry to hear about your microphone, but I'm guessing if you actually ordered it with Ubuntu, it would have Just Worked -- you'd both have hardware known to be supported (not just probably supported), and you'd have all the appropriate drivers preinstalled.

This reminds me of....

[Gideon Wells]

This reminds me of a decade or so ago when I still saw Mac software at my local Wal-mart. There was a news story back then about someone who picked up the Mac word processing suite of the day and was unable to return it as it was opened.

She, sadly it was a she, thought it contained a physical word processor, which is basically a typewriter with an LCD screen.

In a follow up she decided to join the digital age, and bought a windows based computer.

I've worked "tech support" while at college. What I am about to say may likely get me tared and feathered here on Slashdot, but I've seen the poor abuse Macs took from the average student.

God blessed the poor linux machines that sat useless because the login screens in the labs confused the non-geeks too much to use.

Windows is going to be around for quite some time.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[trolltalk.com]

Nice stereotype of auto workers as dumb air-wrench monkeys who can't do anything as simple as send an email.

The people *I'm* insulting are the fools who believe that by paying a "Technical College" for some basic skills that they could get in 15 minutes for free at the local library - they have more money than brains, which, generally speaking, isn't saying much.

True technical colleges? Look to the European model, or Quebec's CEGEP system. Not these "take a few courses and in less than a year you too can have an exciting new career as a [insert whatever]".

why did you buy the laptop?

[jsiples]

I'm very anti-microsoft and very much pro unix operating systems. However, why would you buy a laptop with ubuntu, if you don't know what you are doing. Theoretically, you actually could put word on it with wine. As for the Verizon disc, I've been there and done that. There are ways around it, you just have to be smarter than the disc :P I think that was poor planning on Verizon's part, you shouldn't need a disc to install your dsl. Who the hell though up that idea. Used to be you could just plug it in and it would work :P Idk, maybe I'm just ranting, but I'm a Linux support technician, and stupid people annoy me lol. Well that's my $0.02, I'm done now.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Julien Brub]

Why is this listed as being humorous?

Because is is easier to laugh at people than to help them??? Sad... Especially since Ubuntu is all about accessibility! There is still a little culture of elitism amongst *part of* the Linux community that contribute to keep Windows users away from the Tux.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[WCguru42]

I wasn't saying that all Detroit auto workers are "dumb air-wrench monkeys." What I was saying is that if you've been working there for twenty plus years and personally haven't found a need to truly understand a computer beyond the bare basics then these courses could be essential to getting a new job.

My Mom has known how to send an e-mail for 8 years now but she's just recently getting to the point where she understands how to send e-mail to all her friends at once instead of opening a bunch of different e-mails. Or how to use the BCC field. There's a big difference between being able to use something and being able to use something to its full potential.

As for the local library comment, some people aren't good book learners, some people need teachers to walk them through the steps. Not everyone learns the same way

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[trolltalk.com]

Most libraries have free classes in how to use the Internet, computers, etc. No books required. Libraries - it's not just dead trees any more :-)

Also, do you really believe that someone who, at this late stage in the game, doesn't know how to use a computer but has been on the workforce for 30 years, can (or even should) be "retrained" to do menial typing on a PC, as opposed to something else more in line with their skills? How, even after taking a few courses in Word and Windows, are they going to compete against people half their age that know that shit without even trying?

It's the same as all those "technical colleges" that say that after 1 year, you too can be a computer programmer or internet security expert. Frauds preying on desperate people.

So install XP

[Anonymous Coward]

So Dell sells her a $100 XP install disk and walks her through installing it. Not hard, gentlemen.

I agree with the previous sentiments-- this is a symptom of setting up a society in which people are utterly dependent upon their computers but have no interest in how to use them, let alone how they work.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Anonymous Coward]

I would like to think it would have worked out of the box. However, trying to read up on how to solve this problem didn't make me feel optimistic on that front. (might be a Hardy bug)

I got a 2G RAM version and it was "Open Box" thus I had to get the M$. But I was very aware of the hardware (ie wifi you mentioned) and made sure I got one that was all Linux compatable. I'm still not sure if the microphone hardware is different between the versions but I sorta doubt it.

You would think it would be easy to find out exactly what drivers/package list Dell uses for their pre-installed Linuxs but I couldn't find anything accurate enough to be useful. Doesn't mean it's impossible to find but I'm pretty tech savvy user and if I couldn't find the solution after considerable effort I have to conclude they could be doing better if they expect M$ converts to be buying.

You'd think there would be a Dell repo for their stuff...

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[the_digitalmouse]

...her solution to this life crisis wasn't to ask someone knowledgeable about computers - it was to call the local news!

Who then, after doing a minimum of research (or *not* doing a minimum of research, depending on how ou look at it), sound completely vapid about the technology as a whole and fail to pronounce 'Ubuntu' correctly.

Seriously people- how hard is it to type "how do you pronounce Ubuntu" in your favorite search engine?

LINUX is an excellent choice for distance learning

[delonix]

I took a Master's Degree using Suse and then Ubuntu distributions. Though I was the only Linux using student in my cohort, the systems worked predictably, flawlessly, and snappily.

My school's excellent Tech Services group was knowledgeable, but seldom needed (what a great LIS school Champaign-Urbana has!), and I had far less trouble than many of my Windows-using classmates.

Linux is a thinking person's OS. Nerds are not necessary, but it is nice to own one, especially for Windows!

RE: durr hurr hurr

[Anonymous Coward]

>Microsoft Word
>spreadsheet macros

Post invalidated.

Shit like this is why graphical logins should be totally banned. If you can't figure out how to log in from a command line, then you're too dumb to use a computer.

UTF8 Printing on Linux

[Sits]

I don't quite understand the question (although from your message I fear the problem is real). I am sad that it is broken on Linux - it's probably fine on OSX but here in Linux land there are plenty of unfortunate issues to go around. Sometimes those issues get fixed in the end though.

I have a few questions of my own:
Where is the text coming from?
What format is the text in if it is coming from a file (plain, doc, tex etc)?
What program are you trying to print it from? Are you using lpr on the command line or some other means?
When you say print do you mean to a printer or do you mean to a PDF? If it's the first does printing it into a PDF and printing that produce a better result?
If it is a printer, do you know what type of printer it is (e.g. is it a postscript printer)?
Do you know how the text is being sent to the printer (I'm struggling to come up with better wording but is it really going as text or is something turning it into a postscript/preprocessed file first?)
Can you post a link to a web URI that has some sample text that shows the problem?

Being able to reproduce this problem myself would allow me to understand your issue. This is all offtopic for this post unfortunately and I have no idea how you will be able to follow up on this... Whatever happens, good luck!

Re:UTF8 Printing on Linux

[jc42]

Well, I'm sad that UTF-8 doesn't work too well in linux, but in my experience, OS X is nearly as bad. And there's no obvious pattern to what works and what doesn't.

Where is the text coming from?

From wherever text comes from. Some I've typed in myself. Some comes out of email. Some comes from web sites. Some is produced by programs.

What format is the text in if it is coming from a file (plain, doc, tex etc)?

All of the above. Mostly plain text. Some PostScript (PS), which is of course plain text, and is an interesting case. I have some PS files which contain non-English text in UTF-8 form. If I open them with the vi editor in a Terminal window on my Mac, the Chinese or Japanese or whatever looks fine. I don't have to use any magical incantation; vi just writes the text to the screen and the glyphs appear as they should (after increasing the font size a bit for some of them ;-). But when I feed the same PS file to Preview, for example, the Chinese or Russian or Hebrew text shows up on the screen in "mojibake" form, with latin1 gibberish instead of the characters that vi and Terminal display. I can also do "cat <file>", and the non-ASCII chars look correct. The command "more <file>" also works correctly. If I print the files with lpr, I get Latin1 gibberish instead of Chinese or Hebrew.

PDF files that contain non-ascii utf-8 chars almost always appear on both the screen and paper as gibberish, no matter how I print them. I can't verify that the PDF is correct, because I know of no way of viewing the internals. But with PS, I can verify that the non-ascci utf-8 text is correct, because I can view it with cat, more, less, vi, etc, and the text always renders correctly. I can also cut out a line, feed it to any of several hex-dump programs, and verify that the non-ascii chars are UTF-8 encodings. But Preview and several printers all render the text as gibberish.

Do you know how the text is being sent to the printer ...

Nope; lpr, CMD-P, and the various File..Print thingies are all black magic. I have no idea how they work or what they do. But they never get it right on any of the Macs that I have available (which admittedly isn't very many). Here at home, we have 2 Macs, 2 linux systems, 2 Windows systems, and 3 printers, which I've hooked up to various computers in various configurations to try to solve the problems. None of them has succeeded for Chinese or Hebrew, or even Russian (which should be easy ;-). My wife has had some success getting Arabic printed from one Windows system, but even then, she is always grumbling about things that come out garbaged in some way when they look good on the screen.

Re:UTF8 Printing on Linux

[Sits]

It's hard to say that UTF-8 always doesn't work well on Linux. I'm using a Latin alphabet and it's been years since I had UTF-8 problems. However that's not your case...

I don't like the direction this is heading in (i.e. guaranteed broken) - bah (this always happens)! You didn't say what type of printer you have though. I'm also worried that you are getting duff results from Windows too.

Some part of me is thinking that if the printer is a laser postscript thing then the font it has does not have an extended character set. On Windows you might be able to fudge this by saying something like "Send as Bitmaps" (this has drawbacks though). What should ideally be happening is that the font should be being uploaded to the printer so it knows how to print the letter "natively" as it were.

On Windows (yeah I know I keep mentioning but I've seen these things in passing) make sure you have the right fonts for the right country. I'm vaguely aware there are Asian languages packs for Acrobat that ships with different fonts. This might let you verify a PDF produced on one system is correct even if it is mangled when sent to the printer.

Does this happen for all non-latin alphabets you try and print or only ones that are using an UTF-8 encoding? Does printing Chinese UTF-8 websites also break? If you open the text files in a browser and print do you have the same issue?

vi and friends have heuristics for trying to guess the encoding of a file. UTF-8 patches went in a few years ago. Assuming your terminal font has the characters it should display most characters.

The information in UTF-8 and Unicode FAQ for Unix/Linux under the printing says CUPS should be able to correctly convert a UTF8 text file to postscript so I would be interested in seeing some sample files...

Could you put up some short example documents on the web and link to them so I can try them?

Late breaking news! It's looking bad for unicode PDFs

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[Sally Forth]

As someone who has taught the college-level Intro to Computers course multiple times, I can assure you that if she did not know the term "google search" that it really did not matter whether her OS was Windows or Linux-based. She'd have been just as hopelessly lost.

It's her fault 100%

[docmur]

There is no way this woman can defend that it wasn't her fault. I don't think it's a legitimate excuse in this day and age to blame the software on the computer. Weather you run a real OS like FreeBSD , Linux or Unix or a POS like Windows you can't just blame the system. There is almost nothing that can't be replaced by a better open source solution. Microsoft Office is replaced by Open Office, Star Office, Abiword etc.... The internet cd problem is retarded. Why wouldn't her ISP tell her she doesn't need it more so why would she not call them and ask. It comes down to one thing and one thing only laziness. How hard is it to really run a *Nix system, there's enough documentation out there to lead you though, certain distros are dead easy such as ubuntu. So I think she has no real defense.

Re:Humor? Entertainment?

[TeXMaster]

Being able or not able to use the computer is not what leads me to think she's on the MS paybook. Calling the news about not being able to use Linux is at the very least suspicious, though.