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Moving Your Kids to Linux?
"My real motivation to do this is to save money and to teach my children that sometimes the best isn't always the most expensive. Also, being the cheap bastard that I am, I'm looking at all the money we've spent on Windows XP, Office and all the games over the years, and I'm wondering if there isn't a way to slowly supplant Linux into the mix and not sacrifice my children's computer experience but at the same time save some money and teach them something new.
My requirements are simple: I would like them to run their CD-ROM based games (which are mostly Director based games from Hasbro), and I would still like them to chat with their friends and also be able to play online Flash and Shockwave based games from Yahoo and Shockwave.
I believe I'm looking at an OpenOffice situation to replace Office, I suppose that would be fine and I think would work out (they aren't required to have perfect Word compatibility, its basically type a paper, and print it). For chat we're probably OK too, because something like GAIM would be fine -- Jabber based things would also be cool.
But my real concern is the CD-ROM games and Windows based games. I can't see my 3 year-old putting a CD-ROM into the drive and expecting it to auto-load and run like it does on XP -- without issues -- even with a perfect installation of WINE, hey, maybe I'm wrong, but is there a way to have it work as good as windows?
I've thought about loading up Mandrake and getting WINE working to see if it'll work out, but I'm not sure that I should waste my time, so I thought I'd ask some readers here if they're run into this situation and if I'm just crazy for thinking that this would be the wise thing to do at the expense of my children's computing experience."
Well, since you asked for advice on raising your kids:
Move them off the screen altogether.
Nothing is going to promote the development of bad O/S interfaces more than indoctrinating young children to their quirks and bad design.
Why not encourage books and hands-on creative outlets rather than computer screens? Do you think they really need to learn about computers at age 3 and 7? Maybe the 11 year old, but I shudder to think you would try to teach your kids ANY OS at such a young age.
Let them enjoy life for awhile before they have to deal with an OS.
https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
If you want something that works AS GOOD AS WINDOWS... then maybe you just should use Windows.
Dont ask for trouble
I have 3 kids of my own and work for home doing some consulting while my husband is off at work. Slowly I've been teaching them how to use Linux Mandrake hoping they will grow up to be Linux Kernel programmers or something ;)
;)
The oldest one (8) is getting good at loading Mozilla and is learning how to type using emacs. The younger two just like all the nifty xscreensavers
They're so cute!
My kids are aged 11, 7 and 3. All of them are computer savvy. They use the computer for basically three things: Games, writing papers and chatting with friends, as well as browsing sites that are frequented by children their age...
The new math?
...is to use both.
Have one PC for the things that they NEED Windows to run, and let them use it only for that. The other should run your free-OS of choice and related software.
As they grow older, teach them the difference, the improvements, and continue curtailing use of the Windows machine until it's just an expensive doorstop.
Very few migrations are successful when done immediatly and cold-turkey. Some are, but they are far and few between---especially when children are involved.
http://www.linuxforkids.org/
Mats
Especially now that XP phones home. I suspect that the games are going to eat my lunch, however. I don't think I'd even consider this for my oldest, who plays a lot of the latest and greatest. My youngest, on the other hand, tends to play much older games (like the kind that _require_ you to change the display resolution to 256c mode). I'm fairly sure this will be a problem as well, but I intend to give it a shot anyway within a few weeks, just to see.
Roving Web-Teleoperated Robot
Hell, just let them learn how to use the CLI
GUIs, never needed them when I was a little one!
Something else is wrong if you're rebooting 4 or 5 times a week. MS has a bad track record, but so far I've heard XP doesn't crash that often.
Taking your kids towards linux has two benefits here. It can cost you as a consumer less and it will give your kids (with good guidance) a good start in learning about computers and what they are truly capable of.
I am Lord Snowbeam. Heed my call!
I think that kids of such young ages shouldn't be exposed to the politcal bickering that is involved in an OS choice. Just give them Windows for now like all the other kids, if they're using computers already, and then when they're, say 12 or 13 introduce them to Linux and any other alternative operating systems so that they will be old enough and mature enough to make such a decision on their own.
Its like with religion or politics, really young kids shouldn't just be indoctrinated in one side or the other just because thats what the parents prefer. Let them make their own un-pressured choices. Not to mention starting them off with Linux would probably set them back they'd have to use Wintel PC's at school or over at a friends house.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
I moved my home network to Redhat 8.0 linux.
..Java Development.
My wife and son is happy that the pc doesnt freeze any more and it has been running for 2 months with no OS reinstall and virus issue.
We use winex to play games other wise we use linux for web page dev , ebaying , picture scanning edit and for me
As a whole we are addcited to linux and we love it
His kids are aged 11, 7 and 3.
Prove that they will never all have prime number ages at the same time again.
Seriously though, he's taught himself how to run it from the KDE menu, resize and reposition the window, and a couple of other small tasks. I know it's not CLI, but he's only three after all.
Doesn't the KDE project have some learning-games for children?
I seem to recall them having those for a couple of languages. Anyone know more on this?
Linux - Because Mommy taught me to Share.
There's a good chance your kids are already into Linux 1f 7hey t4lkx0r l1k3 7h15x0rz, 51lly f4gg0rz.
Trolling is a art,
I assure you that old games should not be able to crash Windows XP.
If it is crashing then it's either bad drivers or a hardware problem. If you are using the default Windows XP drivers then it's almost certainly hardware related in which case Linux would be just as unstable.
Why not set the machine to dual-boot or try out one of the many CD-based Linux distro's to see how they get on for now without all the associated hassle if they have to revert back.
If they are happy with Linux and still wish to use Windows for the odd game then take a look at VMWare - yes it's more outlay but it will keep them happy for those games/apps they really want.
[)amien
[)amien
If you force it on them, they might decide to not use it at all. Maybe dual boot? If the kids like Linux, just ditch Windows and move on. If not, then they can go back.
Michael Loves Me!
Why not let them use an old PC with Windows 98?
After all your old games will work flawlessly with such a machine compared to the hassles of getting director-based games to run on Linux.
Why you have to reboot you Windows XP machine is a mystery to me. I have used it for some time now and have no trouble whatsoever. And my PC is loaded with development stuff for work.
This is reminiscent of the old platonic girl friend problem. You know, when you're friends with a girl you really like and they claim to need to find a guy that's just like you but not you. In this case you want an OS that's just like Windows but not Windows. Based on the analogy I've provided the best I can suggest is that you give up.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
You who are so stupid that you have to boot XP 5 times a week, turn around and BREED?
Just great, three more future welfare recipients I have to pay for. Prick.
the linux desktop certainly has a ways to go, but some of the most basic applications are nearly ready for popular consumption. my son uses osx on an ibook, so the games are not really there either. but, appleworks is great for his needs. i am surprised however, that there is not a basic installation suitable for the education market. with the arrival of cheaper tablets--with a usb keyboard--this may be something worth delivering. is anybody aware of education distributions in the k-12 market?
I tried this myself, but found I didn't have the patience or determination to get everything working smoothly. Shockwave just doesn't jive well with some web browsers on Linux. WINE is a work in progress and not sure to work. (Though, admittedly, even running games on WinXP that were designed for Win98 is iffy.) End result, a dual-boot system using LILO. Office-type software in Linux, games in Windows 2000, messenger in Linux, browser in Windows 2000. This works much better. I keep checking new stuff out -- so eventually more will move to Linux, but I refuse to spend weeks trying to get shockwave to move.
I was taking one day at a time, but then several days got together and ambushed me. (from a Rhymes with Orange comic)
I have three kids as well. 19, 16 and 12.The boys (19 and 12) are on XP, my daughter (16) on Linux. I am spending most of my time with the boy's, "helping" them with their stuff. On the other hand, this weekend was the first time in months I have heard a "support request" from my daughter (how to use truetype font's in Gimp).
She is actually interested in her computer not constantly crashing and she can still do all the things important to her. Listening to MP3's, homework (OpenOffice), surfing the web etc. She even ventures in the shell, using ftp, killing a process here and there and sometimes even shows me a keyboard shortcut I have not seen before.
The boys, on the other hand had Linux on their machines before (dual boot) but they never got into the Linux thing (i guess because windows was still there). As for games, they do that on PS2/Gamecube and Xbox.
I would want a choice of what I was using. When I was about 8 or so I made sure my parents knew I wanted a commodore. If your kids care they will tell you. If they don't then maybe they're not ready yet.
I am in an almost identical situation and do not experience the problems you report. You may need to investigate the real reason for your rebooting obsession.
Kids' software generally isn't the most compatible stuff around -- there's just no reason to test on multiple units or port to multiple OSs due to its limited appeal. In order to get any kid's software to work, you're goign to have to fight like crazy to get them to work under windows emulators. Does this sound like the way to teach kids there's a "better way"...by fighting for hours to get software to run just to save $100 off the cost of a win2k license?
Kids' websites tend to be about the same. I run Opera and Moz at home and when my brother comes to visit we often discover that his favorite sites -- all flash intensive with tons of cool intel/windows only games -- don't work so hot. We have the same problem with my Mac.
As for open office...i'd have to say that it's not as kid friendly as MS office, which is NOT kid friendly at all. No office suite is. I pine for the days of Bank Street Writer.
If your kids are under 12, you're probably going to meet a lot of resistance to your plan. I don't think it's worth it...especially since it's so easy to teach kids WHY linux is good when they're older. Young kids don't understand the value of a dollar nor the importance of freedom and until they do it's silly to force it on them. When they hit high school, then's where you spring your plan -- by getting them their OWN pcs, older machines running Linux, for school use.
Hey freaks: now you're ju
I know, I know, you are going to complain that Mac's are too expensive but the new $999 iBook is a steal (bought one for the mother-in-law), it doesn't crash like windows xp, lets them explore open source software and there is going to be a lot more cool stuff they can do than with a linux box like iMovie -- that will keep them out of your hair for weeks and you don't need a DV camera. Evidently, the kids in Maine are going ape-manure over their iBooks.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Set a cronjob to crash/reboot the machine every 30-45 minutes, that way they won't recognize the difference between linux and windows.
Life sucks.
Ah yes son, you get to learn the way I did - only then will you truely learn to love cut & paste.
Democrats and Republicans only disagree about how to enslave you
Disconnect the wiring on the reset and power switch. My 18 Month old has become a savvy button pusher. His ability to sneak in there and hit that power switch is uncanny. I tried locking my computer in an desk encloser which works, but now He knows how to climb up to my desk using a bar stool type chair and use his toes to hit the buttons. Well as far as useful advice I switched to windows 2000, It allowed me to have much control over who can use what programs it's stable and allows the auditing I desire. In reality linux wasn't practical because many of the games my 11 year old daughter would like to play dont work. If you like me had fantasies of your child loving programing as you did as a geeky kid forget it. They lost interest after the " hello world
My Scrabble game never crashes. I guess that's because it's made of CARDBOARD and LITTLE WOODEN TILES!
Get rid of the PC, or your kids will get carpal tunnel syndrome before puberty.
I was going to make this post about my Monopoly game, but Billy, that mean kid from Redmond, stole mine.
The latest Slashdot meme.
Maybe you should ground your kids for saying "Linux" instead of "GNU/Linux".
"Maybe it's both..."
Install linux. Install VM-Ware. Create a WINXP VM, and a WIN98 VM. Run the old 98 games on the 98 VM session. Run the new windows stuff on the WINXP VM session. Make backups of both. When they crash etc, just reload the saved state.
Problem solved. And the best part is your kids get to learn about virtual machines.
This episode of Seasame Street was brought to you by the letters 'V' and 'M'. Can you say Virtual Machine little childrens? I knew you could!
I'm in a similar position. When my son was 3 I started letting him use the computer (mainly because he exhibited the ability to mimic what he saw me doing). While I did pick up a few children's titles that were games and 'educational software' (YMMV) I also put an shortcut to a chess game on his desktop. He played chess as often as the 'child' titles without me prompting either way.
In other words, your kids will live without their windows based software if you can't get it to run on Linux.
I'm about to set up my first Linux based machine. I have many of the same motivations to do so, plus I just want to play with it. If things go well, my existing Windows based PC will likely be my last. Even though that means that I have to give up some of the games near and dear to my heart. It'll be worth it in the long run, I hope.
Grimwell - old, cranky, mean, obsessive
Kids sites tend to use a lot of Flash, from what I've seen. My 3 year old spends a lot of time playing games on the Disney and Noggin sites.
Unfortunately, the Flash player for Linux is still at version 5. Not a huge problem, as most Flash apps are still compatible with 5, but it does mean that you will run into problems until they release an update.
Wine has issues with practically every problem it runs. Even pinball is flickering and slow. I don't think you can rely on it for more stability than XP. If anything, running them under Win98, the original system they were written for, should be more help.
I just received the happy news that my wife is two weeks pregnant. I will be a father for the first time, and I have 8.5 months to prepare for it.
My question is: What distro would you recommend for a new-born? Does anyone here have experience teaching unix administration to infants?
A follow-up question:
I generally spend my time on the command line, but I could see how it might be a difficult concept for a child to grasp in its first few years, especially while its motor controls are still developing. (i.e. no touch-typing yet).
I guess I'd be willing to load down the old box with a gui, but the question is, which one?
I'm thinking KDE 3.0., but is there maybe a more lightweight desktop that could be more intuitive for a young child? Remember, it won't be able to read menu items for a few years, so an intuitive graphical interface is very important.
Any thoughts are welcome.
No I don't mean get a copy of MAME, I mean use software like VMware or Plex86 to emulate any of the less resource demanding games. Also, bear in mind Linux has a plethora of FREE games available, many of which I find more mentally stimulating than their win32 based counterparts. And about worrying if it will be user friendly for your kids, computers weren't too user friendly when I was a kid, but I lernt em anyways :) Seriously, just stick your kids on a Linux box and they'll 0wn your root in no time
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
while I'd like to convert my daughter to Linux, she's only 2, so we need all of the games that work in Win98 to work perfectly on her next computer.
my solution? a Blueberry 350Mhz iMac running OS X bought on eBay for 401$ with shipping. it will run all of her games in 'classic' OS 9 mode, and she'll have a CLI below her in the OS for when she's older. once she's off the games in a few years we can look at buying her a box for Linux, install Linux on the iMac, or just stick with OS X. by then she'll be able to choose herself.
I can't wait til xmas morning!
P
Everyone knows that to have kids, you must have a girlfriend or wife, something we all know Slashdotters don't have. This story should have been something more like "Moving your pet gerbils to Linux" or "Moving that person you cyber with to Linux". Moving your kids to Linux just won't really have that big an effect on slashdotters.
This is yet another demonstration of someone moving to Linux for the sake of it. You have to reboot four or five times a week?! Well that's five minutes and ten button presses.
You may have incompatibility problems with old games now, but I can assure you that they are nothing compared to the problems you'll have trying to run them through Wine.
And what about when your kids go to school? Unless they attend one in a very small minority they'll be using a different platform and will be behind the other kids.
You want to save money? Don't buy any more games - use the Shockwave resources on the internet. And you'll be fine with XP for another five years at least.
Free iPods - now in the UK!
I mean, if you already have a copy of Windows for some reason or another and a dedicated system, is there value in moving them to Linux? Will they come to appreciate any of the features Linux has to offer if their administrator (the father) hides all the differences from them? XP/2000 are relatively stable (about as stable as a kid would really need), and it is what the edutainment/games companies develop for. Sure you could rig something with magicdev and wine to do autorun stuff, but what is the gain?
Now there are many applications where Linux has some incredible advantage over Windows. Professional workstation use, server, power user desktop, multimedia playback (freevo/mplayer is very HTPC friendly...), but I'm not sure edutainment works in this area *if* you already have a licensed copy of Windows. There is no reason compelling you to upgrade to the latest and greatest MS, if Win98 worked fine, why buy XP? I think you'll find a lot of problems encountered during a three year old's use of a computer will happen regardless of the OS, and Wine will not likely meet your expectations as a full Windows replacement.
You can use free software with your Win98 (or XP, or 2000). OpenOffice doesn't require linux, and a lot of free applications now run under Windows.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
My kids are aged 11, 7 and 3. All of them are computer savvy. They use the computer for basically three things: Games, writing papers and chatting with friends, as well as browsing sites that are frequented by children their age (Nick, Cartoon Network, How Things Work, Yahoo!Kids, and others).
Lets see, an OS that handles games, writing papers, chatting with friends, and browsing flash-based sites.
Windows does all these well, and very easily. Most of these things require loopholes and extra steps for Linux.
So my question becomes "Why are you switching them to Linux? You already have a good solution for the time being!"
Switching your children over to linux without any "real" reason. Sounds like a troll to me.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
The first thing anyone should learn with a computer is how to code using a very, very simple language. I used MS QuickBASIC.
If you first use the computer to use applications, then you will forever think the computer is a device for word processing, viewing web pages, and the like. As you learn more applications, you will think that the computer can do more, say allow you to layout pages, but you will miss the main point of the computer.
The computer is a tool. If the first thing you learn to do is code, you will see that the computer is a tool for processing input, and generating output. That's all it does, but it does it very, very well.
I have been in a classroom environment where we were told to make a change to a single spot in an entire web site (~70 pages). Out of 20 people in the room, 19 of them opened FrontPage, made the change, and repeated. I wrote a script and finished in 5% of the time. They used the computer for what they thought it was for, applications, and I used it for its real purpose, processing data.
-twb
Here's the problem as I see it: You want them to convert and you want to convert them over.
I think that, as you observed, since some things don't work as well as Windows, you'll have a problem if you try to get them converted.
My suggestion is to ensure that you can set up for them the majority of what they want, and then dual boot.
Make a point of never using XP yourself. Make sure you're seen in front of them running some really slick and attractive WM. With lots of shiney customizable things that can be tinkered with.
When they see you playing with it, they'll be interested. But if you put it in front of them and preach that "Its better! Its cheaper! Its magic sliced bread doohicky!" you won't get anywhere.
Let them have an account that'll let them do as much as possible that they could under XP, and let them tinker with it. They may tire of it, or they may be intrigued.
But either way, I bet you'll wind up with them learning less than if you tried to force them.
My kids actually prefer my linux machine to mom's 2000 machine. Something about all the cool games that install out of the box when you select "Debian Jr" during tasksel. :) My two oldest kids actually like this text based math quizzer, and try to out do each other on it all the time. I have them defaulted to KDE for the desktop, and most the stuff they do would be flash sites like Nick, bob builder, etc. I find it interesting that the kids go for the linux desktop vs the 2k box when they have all these games on both. For more on what's available for kids under linux goto the Linux For Kids website. Good luck, and just let the kids choose.
Really. Have your XP box and set up a Linux box next to it.
:^)
This addresses several problems. First, you will always have a box that will do what you want. Second, you get to test out products/issues on your own time (and not in a panic because your 3-year old is throwing a tantrum because Tonka Raceway isn't working). Third, you can showcase Linux simply by using it, and your kids *will* be curious. Fourth, you have a second machine that can do at least *some* stuff so that you will (hopefully) lessen the squabbles over whose turn it is to use the computer. This last point also eases the transition - the older kids will move to the Linux box at least some of the time, and the 3 year-old will grow up knowing that Linux exists.
Finally, having you work on the Linux box as the kids play allows you to monitor them (without being there *to* monitor them), and also may allow for some bonding as they gently inquire why you are swearing at the Linux box
...start them on Windows now, so when they're in their teens and start rebelling, they'll move towards linux...
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
If your children play games, then I'd suggest just sticking it out with WindowsXP. I mean granted, the plethora of all five games ported to Linux is tempting, but most child development (learning games) are only coded for Windows.
If I were you, I would just get another computer and have it as an 'option' for them to use. Kinda let them pick up on it at their own pace.
I mean, making all three of your children move to linux because it's what you feel is best is like breaking their right hands because you want them to learn to write left handed. It just doesn't make sense and it'll probably only confuse and frustrate them.
Be the good parent, don't force them to convert. Give them the option, and let them make their own choice.
Keeping your kids away from Windows is an absolutely pointless idea because at some point in their lives they are going to be confronted with a Windows computer, likely sometime in the early grades of school. Your kids should be smart enough to reject the idea that Windows is the only opertating system that exists, but they shouldn't think that Windows is absolutely useless. I think the best thing to do would be to get a Linux computer, but keep the Windows computer functioning so that the 3 year old's games can still function. The 11 year old will certainly be old enough to understand that the Linux-based computer is "like the other one, but very different too" and that there are some programs that can only run on one computer and not the other. The younger ones will figure that out too eventually.
Not only do I want to move my 2.9 year old daughter onto Linux, but I've told her that immediately after potty training, she is to learn a high level language, or at least SQL. She should also be able to install releases such as Mandrake and Lycoris.
Then in a few years, I fully expect her to be able to handle Java and
By the time she's 13 or 14, she should have assembler under belt. With this knowledge, she can and should be able to write device drivers.
On my side, my goal is to find a job telecommuting, while 'home-schooling' the kid - who's computer science assignments will be doing my work for me so I can pursue the life of leasure I so richly enjoy.
And if you believe all that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you
--- have you healed your church website?
You mention that the games they play are mainly online ones that are shockwave and Flash, which will be happily read by any browser using the IE or Mozilla plugin structure (you may have to get the plugins from http://www.macromedia.com if they're not included - I don't directly use Mozilla, thus don't know). As for the gui, with Red Hat there shouldn't be many change-over problems, and kids are smart anyway. They will most likely be using the mainstream apps like open office and mozilla, so no need to worry about poor gui design. I say go for it, but secretly keep Windows on another partition just in case. Also, remember to buy them all some nice big Linux and C/++ books for christmas :)
puts ("Python r0cks\n");
What's that junior?
Oh the process is hung?
Well, just open up an Xterm and kill -9 that biatch.
I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
We've all heard of slashdot math --- 50 karma + 1 insightful - 1 overrated == 49.
Looks like VA Linux math is even worse:
http://biz.yahoo.com/fin/l/l/lnux.html
Last quarter, they had revenues of 5 million, but expenses of 18 million.
Hey, at least it's an improvement from last year when they had 5 million in revenue and 54 million in expenses!
I've got my brother on redhat linux, and it's a pain in the ass for me. He's 13, but all the time he wants me to get something else working - and with linux it all takes so long. besides that i'm a bafoon when it comes to RH (deb rocks).
I don't think he's learning anything, because he just uses mozilla to check his mail and such. He still doesn't know how to do anything with linux.
My kids are aged 11, 7 and 3. All of them are computer savvy. They use the computer for basically three things: Games, writing papers and chatting with friends, as well as browsing sites that are frequented by children their age
Boy, I couldnt even *read* at 3!!!!
I think you should be less worried about linux migration and more worried about your 3 year old taking over the world!
Why stick up for big business?
I've only ever had Linux on my computers at home. My wife and kids use it reasonably well. If papers are needed they use OpenOffice. They visit their favorite websites and they play some games as well. Now with Transgaming, that will increase as well. (Note: we just got Railroad Tycoon 2 working with Transgaming winex).
Yes, it has it's bumpy points, but I suspect that is how it will ever be mixing kids and computers. My son hate windows machines as well as linux, just to weird for him. He uses them but hates them. My daughter prefers Linux over Windows, I think because of the screen savers.
We're just one big happy brood of Penguins at my house!
-- Many men would appreciate a woman's mind more if they could fondle it
My daughter boots whichever OS she wants pretty much on her own. While most of her games are Windows based, some of her favorties, like Frozen Bubble, are on Red Hat.
I haven't given her Internet access on her computer, she has to use mom or dads, which means supervised.
While she has been using Red Hat a lot lately, it may simply be because that's what dad runs all the time.
Like many bad elements in life, I can't keep her from being exposed to Windows, but I can educate her so she knows when its ok to use it, and when to say no if pressured to use it by her peers.
Contrary to linux belief you aren't crashign because you are using XP. You are crashing because your kids are playing old games. The solution is to get a cheap old computer for like 50 bucks at a garage sale put 98se on it and have your kids play the games on that. Then your XP machine will hardly crash at all.
Your kids will probably hate you for switchign to linux. For all my trying (dont' make fun of me) www.cartoonnetwork.com is completely incompatible with any non-windows OS. You simply can't play cartoon orbit ctoons or gtoons without windows. I even tried a wine/mozilla combo that lied to the website and pretended to be IE. No dice.
Another solution is to get your kids a console gaming system. A new one. They will spend so much time playing that that they will use the pc less and less for those games that crash it and more and more for flash/web based stuff, messenging, and paper writing.
Linux is not your answer. It would be nice if it was, but it isn't.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
It comes with Appleworks for free that is M$ Office compatible.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Mine are 9, 3, and 1 (18 months)
First: I am getting a CD-Rom server up. Then the kids games go there. So the little hands will not have to tocuh the games - just click and go.
Second: The desktop machines are Compaq IPaq - they do not have CD-Rom and Diskette. They can load from the network. So little hands can not feed the machines. And if they break it... a new image can be loaded from the main server.
Third: Desktop... Current WinME. Will be Linux using wine as can be... Else WinME image from the server into a VMWare sesson. I know this is cheating but gives me a backup, if I can not get that favorite game working.
a RedHat 8.0 box with Mame [http://www.mame.net] for games.
RH 8 gives a nice look and feel over previous versions and it's not do different from a Windows system.
Karma: The shiznight, mostly because I am the Drizzle.
I've often thought about how my own computer history affected my computer 'development', if you will. Personally speaking, my history is this:
- Osbourne (age 6-8)
- Commodore 64 (age 9-13)
- Commodore Amiga (age 13-17)
- and various Macs since.
I have a point here, stay with me. The earliest machines, the Osbourne and C64, had no GUI to speak of. If you really liked computers, and were technically inclined, you still had to dance circles to get the stupid C64 to do anything impressive. You had to learn the quirks, watching the behaviour of the disk drive LED (anyone remember that constant flashing red light? that meant BAD). In short, you had to really know what you were doing.
Amigas, too, just by virtue of the fact that it was the BeBox of the 80s. No support = gotta be resourceful.
If you could make those old computers do what you wanted to, consistently, then you basically had passed your trial-by-fire. You were a geek. More importantly, you were a geek that knew why computers act a certain way. The kicker is that you would really fly if given a computer that was half-capable. So, in moving your kids to Linux, you have an interesting experiment before you. If your kids are technically inclined, it might be one of the bigger favours you could do for their education. If not, however, I suggest you move them back - at least to a GUI - after a certain period of time. Some kids are nerds, some aren't. It's stupid to force a non-nerdy kid to compile stuff. If that kid happens to enjoy tinkering... you've opened up a whole new world, and possibly career, down the line.
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
It is apparent that you don't know what you are doing... say it with me... compatiblity mode. I have yet to have ONE program out of thousands going through my hands fail to work using it.
If your XP box is BSODing or needing a reboot five times a week, your problem is much deeper than XP. It's either PEBCAK or crappy old 1980s hardware. I run over 100 boxes with WinXP Pro and easily that many more lappies with XP Home... not one crashes... ever. Not one. And it's a good mix of bleeding edge and older hardware systems.
My suggestion is that your kids get a new dad, one that knows how to buy decent hardware and load an OS properly. If you move your kids to Linux, you can trash 99% of the software you own, and limit your kids to second rate citizenship status in the cyber and electronic world as they won't be able to enjoy any modern learning or fun titles nor the internet. WINE is not a good solution for emu-ing your edusoftware either.
Learn to run your compter friend.
If you're cheap, why did you "upgrade" to XP? Get an old machine with Windows 98 on it from EBAY and run the games on there. Or buy new game versions that run on XP. If you try to do this on Linux, the lesson your kids will learn is: "You get what you pay for".
I've been making the same decision. I've just downloaded Debian. Now I have to migrate current apps to a new machine (my wife is not as easy to migrate as my children). As for WINE, I have no experience but from all I've read things should work out fine. I do know from experience that OpenOffice is excellent for all the basics (word processing and spreadsheet).
I don't worry about stuff like "will my children be able to use Windows at school". They're going to adjust and adapt to everything in this world, including multiple operating systems.
People who feel that our kids are raised on nothing but a computer must not have kids. What's too young? How do you know? What makes your choice right for me? This isn't a parenting forum if you haven't noticed!
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein
but he kept chewing up and spitting out the CDs. Didn't work very well.
sulli
RTFJ.
The Debian Junior project is worth peeking at for you. It might not be sufficiently mature yet, but they have spent the time thinking about what a "kid-friendly Linux" system needs. They also have a list of web-sites about kids and linux available on the project page. Even if Debian Junior isn't for you yet, you might want to give them feedback. After all, you've identified the demand and they are laboring to develop the corresponding product.
Repost from http://lists.slug.org.au/archives/slug-chat/2001/O ctober/msg00317.html [slug.org.au] :P
O ctober/msg00317.html [slug.org.au] ---------------
On Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 11:51:06PM +1100, Gnuthad wrote:
> On 28 Oct 2001, Catie Flick said:
> > Well, it was dark, you see, so I pushed it in as hard as I could and
> > thought the little catches were in properly... but they weren't. One
> > powerup and slight burning smell... ooh, what's that? hmm, better power
> > off... put hand in to feel RAM... shit, it burned me! Run to cold water
> > tap, etc.
>
> Uh huh, the reply of "over-stressed female" appears to be totally
> correct
Tell me about it.
I was sitting around with Catie and various other gal pals the other day, and we were swapping makeup tips and and gossiping about men, you know how it is, and then, it was getting a bit late in this girly night, and one of us, a pretty young thing, but a bit flighty, you know how girls are, brought the conversation around to computers.
I'll omit the ridiculous high pitched giggling we indulged in for the sake of your sanity.
"So, um, you know, those um, computer things?"
"Oh yeah, they're kind of scary. Like, you know, really scary. Hard and stuff. It makes me, like, stress, and stuff."
(snips sobs of terror and general female stress, since SLUG is so alert to it as it is, you know how it goes)
"It's a dirty GNU thing anyway."
"Yeah, thank goodness. It, like, hurts my brain."
"Yeah, I made the mistake of trying to do my own computer stuff the other day," said Catie.
(insert gentle feminine frowns and sighs here)
"I hope you realised the error of your ways," said random female.
"Oh yes. It made me stress," said Catie.
The others nodded, understandingly. We've all made that mistake.
"It's definitely a hippy thing. It takes, like, brains and stuff." Giggle, giggle.
"Definitely," chorused the girls.
"I mean, take those dirty GNU hippies on SLUG," said I, sensibly. "Why do your own GNU/Linux... stuff, when there are those GNU guys on SLUG? I mean, like, they're so gay. They do all this stuff, like, all the time. There's no point."
The others nodded at my concise summary of the situation.
"I mean, I used to do SLUG, right?" said I. "And then, I realised how painful I was making it for them with all my female stress. I mean, these guys, they don't stress the same way."
"Really?" chorused the listeners.
there's a difference between ordinary stress and female stress? When girls on SLUG have a problem right, the hippies pick up on the stress, it's special female stress. It used to freak them out. They'd pick up on it right away - 'female stress.' Not just any old stess, they'd point out that it was female stress. They used to make such an effort to point it out. The slightest little problem I had, and they'd detect it - 'arg!' were the cries 'a stressed female, not a pretty sight.' Even, if, you know, I thought I was stessing about something that was, like, totally gender free, like hardware or something, they'd recognise the female stress.
"And here was I, like, a stressed female, and I'm thinking, yeah, hey. I didn't want to disturb all these dirty SLUG hippies with my female stress. I mean, they're so gay, and they were so quick to jump on the female stress whenever I did something, I thought they must have a point. So now I've left them to it."
The girls nodded approvingly.
And then we went on to assess the sexual attractiveness of these particular guys from SLUG, the ones that we had so unwittingly stressed on, but maybe you don't want to know what we said.
-Mary.
-- Mary Gardiner
-- Reposted from http://lists.slug.org.au/archives/slug-chat/2001/
If your going to run a Windows system for your kids, buy yourself a copy of Ghost. I've only had to use it once on my two-year old's machine over the past six months (STILL not sure how he managed to delete the files he deleted to make the OS not boot!), but it will make your life a lot more pleasent.
If a pion (n-) collides with a proton in the woods & noone is there to hear it, does lamdba decay into the source pa
I've noticed a lot of people saying "Well, I put Linux on my mom's computer," and now someone wants to make their kids use Linux?
Your kids might grow up to be great sysadmins if you do that. But if they're aren't computer lovers, your kids will just end up having an adversarial relationship with computers, and another generation of technophobes will be born.
While it's true that kids are flexible, and won't have much trouble figuring out the differences between the Windows or Mac they use at school and the Linux box at home, cutting your kids off from games, homework assignments, etc just because you like Linux so much is a bit of a rash decision. Don't you want the best for them?
(-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
http://www.macromedia.com/software/flashplayer/spe cial/beta/
It works great!
As for Shockwave, it works great if you install the Windows version with CodeWeavers CrossOver plugin.
I generally spend my time on the command line, but I could see how it might be a difficult concept for a child to grasp in its first few years, especially while its motor controls are still developing. (i.e. no touch-typing yet).
Hey don't worry about it.
It may look like your 1 year old is pounding random sets of keys with her tiny fists, but she's really just typing Emacs key-sequences...
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
Even when pounding on the keyboard launching untold numbers of konqurer sessions and somehow managing to hit :wq in my vim sessions after having added untold lines of almost correct perl code.
Tell the 11 year old that he's absolutely, expressly forbidden to install Linux on your computer. If you're not fully migrated by the time he's 13, consider searching under his bed for a hidden Linux box...
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Kids dont have the freak-out factor that the brain-dead adults have when moving from one interface to another... the move to linux is braindead for them, and Open Office will work just fine for them.
Here's the problem... The schools TEACH windows and MS-Office.. the teachers do not care about abilities but Rote-memorization.. like "what menu is used to create a table in word" if you dont exactly follow what the teacher wants.. to get it wrong... doesn't matter if you were sucessful. add to this that sites like NICK.com and cartoonnetwork use alot of shockwave for the games.. that break under linux.
also, if your kids's friends use MSN chat or the other non friendly chat systems then those also break.. Yahoochat works fine for me under linux, but then I eliminate any chat apps for my daughter... there is no reason for her to get sucked into the chat addiction.. she can use the phone... and as for filtering... I blatently use Squid and a good blocker file. It's a transparent proxy, you cant get around it unless you hack it or hack my login on it.. and it is there to keep the HTML porn emails from forcing their way in front of my daughter's eyes on her email account. her account has only been used by friends of hers and as a login information for nick.com and cartoon network.. so one of those companies sold her email address to a spam list that was bought by some aisan porn sites.. nice... a blocking proxy is required, even when you supervise... porn adverts force themselves into our lives. and squid keeps them from being visible... at least the pictures...
The kids can translate to linux easily... It's just the education aspect and possible breaking of shockwave games that really keep my daughter from loving linux.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
My kids are 11 and 7. We live in Sweden and don't have English as the first language (living Sweden does not require it, yet...), so those internet sites you mention are not available to us, at least not quite fully yet.
However, that has not stopped them from learning using Mandrake 9.0, starting a few games etc. They even come over from the Windows machine to play some Linux specific games: Frozen Bubble, Armagetron, LBreakout, Power Manga etc! That's cute!
Today Linux is so similar to Windows there is no learning curve to speak of. At least not to minors.
Since you want windows games to run perfectly, and since some members of the /. community have pointed out that the kids friends and school will likely use windows, why not buy a second computer and install linux on it and keep the existing windows computer the way it is? Purchase a cheap computer, install Mandrake or some easy linux disto on it, and have them learn both windows and linux. Allow the child who wants to play games to use windows, while the child who wants to surf the net can use the linux box. Then switch them after an hour or too.
Linux works fine as a home OS, unless you try to make it be Windows -- which it isn't, and by and large isn't trying to be. It has its own educational apps (though mostly not of the same caliber), and a whole lot of childrens' apps are web-based and so should work just fine out of the box. Look at the native software available -- sure, it's not as pretty, but kids were using computers long before 256-color graphics (or even GUIs at all) were available. See a list of the educational games included in the the SEUL/edu (Simple End User Linux/Educational) project's index.
That said, if you still want to run your Windows-based apps, my vote is for Win4Lin -- it's cheaper than a new windows install (or running a separate machine), more reliable than WINE and will work with your existing win98 media and license. If it's strictly for your kids, you can call them and ask about an educational discount -- they've had those in the past, to about $40 or $50.
Finally, if you haven't used Linux before, go into this expecting an educational experience for yourself as well!
you could load those games that don't require x like hangman, they might actually learn something! as an additional bonus as long as you run linx browser (text only) there is little need for porn filters (you might end up learning how to explain some dirty words, but no pics!) why do we think we need graphics to keep kids interested? I lost entire summers to my c64 programing I think it was a matter of challenge and interest. I won't presume this is THE answer, but why not run two boxes one like this for them to learn on, and a windows box for supervised time?
you might as well keep them on windows. a vast majority of schools and colleges are all about the windows environment, so when you teach them on computers, you might as well stick with what they are going to be using at school and throughout their lives instead of learning linux then having to unlearn linux and learn windows. other children their age will have many years of experience ahead of your kids, don't get your kids left behind.
And now he's making his own LFS-based distro; I think it's called "Snugglycat Linux" but I'm not sure which variant of meow means "pet me" and which means "fuck you" yet.
Granted, if you want the full supported version, it's not free, but it seems to have excellent WINE integration. Admittedly, I have not attempted to do any gaming on such a system, but other windows apps I have installed have run more or less perfectly. Also, with a distro like Lycoris, you get the windows look and feel, which will deal with the confusion your children may experience later when working with windows systems elsewhere. I grant you, Lycoris is far from the best distribution, and wont suit the hardcore linux fans, but it is a step at least. Best of luck.
Maybe
Linux for kids
is the right place for them.
Signatures are for stupids.
Wine really isn't mature enough for general use (it's not at 1.0 yet), unless you buy the prepackaged, stable versions sold by CodeWeavers (Crossover Plugin and Crossover Office).
Female Prison Rape in NY
I've got my kids running Linux (Red Hat 8) on laptops (ages 12, 12, 14) for both school and home.
OpenOffice works fine for all their school work, and they connect fine to the school's wireless LAN. They can connect to the shared drive in school to save work, thanks to Samba.
However, web sites are a different matter. Linux doesn't do Director so they all were pissed about not being able to do much with Nick.com, Disney.com, CartoonNetwork.com, etc. until I got them all CrossOver Plugin and installed the Shockwave Director plugins.
Fortunately RealPlayer, Xine and MPlayer are good enough for playing all media content. This will be 100% true when Mplayer makes the latest install easier and handle Quicktime Sorensen better.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
If you have kids, and you have Linux (or even if you have Windows or Mac OS X), try out Tux Paint!
;^)
It's my answer to "Debian Jr. only came with The GIMP - I can't use the Gimp! How could my 5 year old!"
I have both Win98 and Debian sid on the family computer. I originally had it set to boot to Win98 by default, but I noticed that my girls (7 and 10) almost always booted into Linux, so I switched it over.
It turned out that they liked Tux Racer, Tux AQFH, and FlightGear more than they liked the Windows games (Civ II, the Sims, etc.). The fact that Tux AQFH was never finished seems to help -- they don't believe me when I tell them, and keep trying to find a way to the end anyway. My older daughter now uses Mozilla for her e-mail and school projects and is a big fan of the Gimp.
So, use a carrot instead of a stick -- set up your computer to dual boot and then put some fun stuff on the Linux partition. I guarantee that they'll find it on their own, especially if they think you're hiding it from them. Besides, you can always buy them stuffed penguins for Christmas or Hannukah.
Ok...you going to try and get the kids to begin using linux at an early age..What's the difference between you and MS then..
I find it interesting the problems you are having with windows XP. I can leave my XP boxes up for weeks without rebooting, and that is under a lot heavier use than what is sounds like your children would be doing.
Perhaps you should just consider why you are having such difficulty with XP?
An advantage of having a unix box for games
is the ability to say remotely, its time to go to sleep:
pid=$(ps -ax|grep warcraft|grep -v grep| awk '{ print $1 }'); kill $pid
then maybe you just should use Windows.
What version? OP wants something as stable in general as Windows XP but which runs older games as well as Windows 98 did.
Will I retire or break 10K?
WindowsXP has the ability to run software in Win95/Win98 compatibility mode - this should correct crashes and errors when running older games and pieces of software. Instructions are here.
(...and maybe there's a reason I'm not aware of). The answer is obvious VMWare. Although it costs a couple hundred bucks, you can operate in a *nix environment and open Windoze as needed. I have friends that run VMWare who tell me that Windoze actually runs better under VMWare than stand alone. Weird. Just my two cents.
Word Axis
Well then, that's the ticket! Keep a Win98 partition for games and MS-specific web sites, and install a nice Linux distro for everything else. The free "office" tools are pretty good, except for the lack of a decent MSProject clone.
Just having a copy of the latest MS OS doesn't obligate you to use it. Stash that WinXP CD-ROM away for later, when MS stops supporting Win98.
I still have a Win98 partition because it's compatible with the older games, updates keep it compatible with the latest web media formats, and it plays DVDs better than Win2k. I can't think of any reason why I would want to buy WinNT/2k/XP while I already have Win98.
-Rick
What are you Linux guys doing to crash XP so much? I haven't reset this XP box in 134 days and it runs everything from OrCAD to UT2003.
/., but 4-5 XP resets a week sounds like WinOS bashing (or trolling) to the extreme.
I enjoy the sometimes-not-so-friendly Windows vs. OSS environment here at
WinME? probably; Win2K? improbable; XP? Dont yank the power cord during a disk access and call it a crash.
I have mandrake installed on their computer and they can do all the chatting and game playing they want to. It has openoffice for their school work.
1. Yeah, put the kids in front of Tux Racer. That'll do the trick. Mhmm.
2. Yeah, I was programming Visual Basic on my parents' 286 when I was four years old. Right.
As another reader points out, if you want them to be able to run Windows games, you need to have them on Windows. WINE may work OK, but it's not perfect, and I wouldn't bet on every game they want to play working under WINE.
If you're hell-bent on having them run Linux, and saving money thereby, why not run something like VMWare ? You can have virtual Windows machines running games for them, you can have multiple VMs so if you install one game that buggers Windows you can just build a new VM without having a "real" re-install, you can copy the VMs around so you have one stable known VM in which to install new software, and each kid can have their own VM - complete with their own software, files, etc. If the kid accidentally screws up Windows, you just copy over the VM file from some backup and are back in business. Sure beats having to reinstall the OS every time some badly written app or kid-gone-awry corrupts Windows. And having "real" Windows running means that the chances of incompatibilities or problems with Windows applications goes to nearly nil.
Then all the other apps that are viable under Linux (say, for argument, OpenOffice), web browser, etc. can all run under Linux outside the VMs, saving you money.
Et Voila ! You have a way to satisfy their gaming needs, you protect yourself from Windows corruption (whatever the source), and you have a way to run software under Linux and save some bucks there too. And you don't need a separate computer.
First let me give you some background on my technological upbringing.
I was born in 1985. My father was a salesman for Sun, which was still a private company at the time. We got our first PC when I was 2 years old, running MS-DOS with 1MB of memory. As soon as I learned to read, my mother bought me a book on QBASIC and taught it to me during the summer after kindergarten. On my own initiative, I learned a few other languages, namely C. In '99, I got my own computer, running 98SE. A few months later, a friend at the place I volunteer evangelized me with Linux and I immediately set aside half my drive and installed SuSE. Today, I have my entire drive dedicated to LFS.
In retrospect, I never would have had the patience to learn Linux if I hadn't known a programming language. By learning to program, you learn how pieces of the system interact with one another. You learn the concept of directory structure. You learn the boundary between a program and the operating system. You learn why things crash. You learn why programs written for one operating system won't run on another.
So, if you want your kids to adapt to Linux, teach them to program - preferably a compiled language, but even QBASIC is fine. Once they've been programming for a few months, they'll learn all the skills they need in order to adapt to any piece of software you throw at them. They'll understand why you can't run Linux and pop in a Halflife CD and have it run. This, combined with some by-the-book indoctrination into open source, should be all they need.
It's probably not configured right. I have yet to find an old game (going as far back as Doom) that won't work on my XP Pro computer. Now, if you're talking about XP Home...well, that thing is an Abomination, and I urge you to abandon it.
Your concerns and the use of parental oversight, as opposed to a filter, are commendable; and I'm glad that you are actually doing so. The best thing that can be done to protect kids on the Internet is direct supervision. Let's move the PC out of the office and into the living room.
Sell all your games and other software on eBay or at a garage sale. Use the money to buy books (possibly about Linux).
Install Linux and seek out the software you'll need. You can get any IM client you want, OpenOffice for homework, and start searching freshmeat or sourceforge for fun and educational games.
Keep in mind that RedHat and Mandrake distros come with lots of games and amusements already.
I did some investigation on educational games earlier this year and I found lots of neat titles.
Good luck!
ps - Are you familiar with Linux yourself? If not, find a guru; that'll make the transition a lot more smooth. Check here to see if there's a Linux Users Group in your area.
It may not be your ideal solution, but my husband and I set up our son's PC to dual-boot Win98 and RedHat over 2 years ago when he was 5. He's 8 now, and he can transition easily from one to the other. Like other posters, we didn't want him getting too attached to all of the quirks and such of a single OS. LILO makes it easy for him to choose what he wants to do. Like your children, he mainly uses Windows for his games and VB Programming (I KNOW but it's easy for an 8 year old). We haven't tried WINE for him because we didn't think he could handle the quirks there. Besides, he's starting to bring home software from school now and trades games with his friends, and of course, that's all Windows, and we expect that he should be able to install and run things on his own, which he does just fine. He uses his RedHat for everything else - OpenOffice for his papers, Mozilla for web browsing via our proxy server, PICO (we're working on vi (HAH!) but it's slow going) for his HTML development, and he's addicted to Tux Racers. Anyway, the point of all this is that he's found the things that he likes best about each OS without just having one or the other, and he gets the benefits of both.
So what are you going to do? Bleed on me?
Hey, I'm going to give you a little bit of insight into my life. Mostly because I, like your children, grew up with computers.
:( He also provided me with a variety of programming languages and tutorials for them. I've at least learned the basics, or more, for Basic, Fortran, VB, C++, HTML, Java, PHP, and Perl. I've had very little actual training. I took a VB class at a High School program, but thats it.
:) FreeBSD, MacOS, **Win2k, **RedHat, QNX, etc. :)
I'm currently 17. I'm in a High School & College Dual Credit program. [I was allowed to take college classes for free and earn both college credit and my remaining high school credit with the same classes.] I'm majoring in Aerospace Engineering. Despite economic trends, I have a job downtown. I am a programmer, and I make almost double the national average for teenager's wages.
I started using computers about the same age as your three year old. I didnt completely understand them at that age, but I tell you by age 5 I was using Basic A with ease[Hey it was cool to make your own program. One with a bouncing ball!]. This whole time I was using Dos / Win3.1, and shortly after we moved up to the pacific northwest I was introduced to Apple, and MacOS. Having many different computers at home, I eventually learned how to setup my own LAN, around age 9 or 10. My father, part of the highly trained tech support group for a Local Newspaper, was constantly building new machines and introducing me to new operating systems... and well he still does it now. I remember when we had the BeBox around the house running BeOS. Man that was my favorite, too bad that didnt work out
I've been part of clubs like Mock Trial, which has gone to state each year since its encarnation in my freshman year. I've been on track teams, soccer teams, baseball teams, and more. THATS the key. I know, it took me awhile to get to it. The thing is, variety will do more for your kids than anything else. I didnt just sit at a computer screen. I was constantly reading books, hanging out with a small group of friends, solving puzzles, playing those educational games you can get from "TurnOffTheTV", and more. I'm assuming you do the same, and this is more from a computer perspective.
On a budget, I'd suggest if you could keep the XP machine, and setup a Linux machine as well... That would be best. The things you're worried about [compatability? Autorun?] could be solved by having more than one OS around to use. Then it'd be a little like my house,
BY THE WAY, Get those kids off windows!! Fast!!! Before they accept the idea that an OS can be trash in a box for 300$
save $100 off the cost of a win2k license
Dabs.com asks GBP 269.07 (plus carriage) for Windows 2000 and either GBP 163.32 (limited "home" edition) or GBP 231.47 ("professional" edition) for Windows XP. This compares with under GBP 10 for a set of binary CDs from almost any such vendor. The difference is rather more than USD 100. And you'll need to pay this for every PC that may at some time run Windows.
all flash intensive with tons of cool intel/windows only games
Flash works fine with Mozilla 1.2a/1.2b. (It may not work with Mozilla 1.1a.) Java, on the other hand, does not (at least not with Mozilla compiled with GCC 3.0 or later).
When they hit high school, then's where you spring your plan -- by getting them their OWN pcs, older machines running Linux, for school use.
Isn't that a bit late? By then, change may be difficult or impossible once they are indoctrinated into the "Windows way".
Perhaps a better idea would be to seek out and/or create suitable software on GNU/Linux (or, even better, portable to most current platforms). There is a small amount in the Free Software Directory.
Maybe you can set up the Win-box like suggested and then require them to pay for the privilege. Some small token payment of $0.25 per hour may be enough to remind them of the cost just to use windows!
Of course this is all assuming that you wish to drive home the cost/benefit of non-free OSes.
...they're already hooked. I haven't had a windows PC in the house since I acquired stepkids (now ages 6 and 7), and so they didn't learn to expect it. Having once supported Windows computers for a living, I wasn't about to turn a couple of kids loose on one - I simply was not up to the maintenance headaches. With their own UNIX accounts I don't have to worry about them dragging the "windows" directory into the "trash can" or accidentally shutting down or just the general random crashiness of every MS OS I've worked with. They like The Gimp, and TuxPaint; Konqueror is in every way on par with IE these days for their web-surfing pleasure; and KDE is very easy to set up in a pretty, kid-friendly way. They haven't complained yet. If they ever start needing a lot of educational programs that Linux won't run I'll get them an iMac.
--
CPAN rules. - Guido van Rossum
The best computer you can give to your kids is one that powers on, boots, and doesn't do much else. Kids are really, really smart.
K, first off, if your 3 year old is writing papers, and talking to friends online, then I think you shouldn't be worrying what OS to be using, you should be worrying about what University to send him to.
... the problems mostly happen when ya have your 3 year old playing around with it.
"... and introduce them to something less expensive (free) and more reliable."
Just curious, is something good, not worth paying for anymore? I'm not saying pay for XP, but it seems that the main reason why people switch to Linux, is that their too cheap to actual pay a few $$$, to support something.
"I'm rebooting this machine probably four and five times a week, not to mention the forever problem of lockups and hangs which seem to happen during the times where the 3 year-old is using the machine."
#1 Remember the says of rebooting 4-5 a day?
#2 You answered your own question
"I know the crashes are mainly due to the older games that the kids play which are not totally compatible with XP, but hey, they USED to run just fine under Windows98."
I've been using XP since it came out, and have yet to have any probs with "older" games. Just be lucky it ain't a Mac, then every new version of the OS, wouldn't be compatible with the last one.
And now you wanna switch to Linux? Have fun getting most of those running under it.
"Also, being the cheap bastard that I am, I'm looking at all the money we've spent on Windows XP, Office and all the games over the years"
Well, there's money well spent. You mention yourself, that you're a cheap bastard, but are willing to throw away the $$$ you already spent on Office and XP (assuming that you did buy them, which I'm now doubting you did).
I have been using BSD(mostly) and Linux since I was 12. My parents had nothing to do with it. I made the decison on my own that writing code was more important than playing games. I made the decision that science was more important than 'entertainment'. I could do everything /I/ either wanted to or need to. It has been this way for 6 years now. Then again, I am also the only one I know in real life. I have made many (unsucessful) attempts to get my parents to switch, but atleast you have authority over your kids and can make them do what you want. My point is, the age doesn't matter if the interest is there. Kids learn fast anyway.
first, xp has this neat feature on shortcuts. you can specify to run a program in a 'compatibility mode'. odds are, if you're running 9x software on an xp machine, you have the horsepower to burn. and if it's crashing now, it can only get better. i've used this several times on older software (can't seem to let those XCOM games go) and it's worked great.
and remember, switching OSs isn't a silver bullet. try checking out those sites your children use on OS browsers and the programs they use to IM and the games they play.
they may very well end up hating a switch to an open-source OS if it means they can't chat with their friends, play flash games on the internet, or play their favorite games that USED to work just fine under windows. also consider the amount of new games your kids covet that will work on OpenSource software.
and keep in mind, that running those games in XP compatibility mode involves less overhead than running those apps through wine or a similar 'windows simulator' on an OSS OS.
i'm not discouraging it - but it sounds like the only real reason you want to convert is to stop the crashing (have you looked into driver incompatibilities or compatibility mode or patches?) - and going to an OpenSource OS will most likely stop the crashing - but it may much more likely stop the usage in the first place.
it's software that has driven the windows empire. they have a low barrier for entry for developers, which means alot of apps that people want, which means alot of installed systems - which attracts more developers - who write more apps - etc, etc.
but it's still all about the software. and talk to your kids about it as well. they may not mind rebooting 4 or 5 times a week vs not being able to have all their old toys.
// "Can't clowns and pirates just -try- to get along?"
(I can imagine the day the RIAA puts trojans on audio CDs, just to attack people who try to rip 'em on Windows boxes. We already know they're not "above it" so it's just a question of what their lawyers tell them about possible liability.)
Er, anyway, if you want that "feature" on Linux, at least require that the auto-executed script have a GPG signature on it, hopefully signed by the user or someone the user trusts. Teach the kids Safe Computing.
As for how to implement it, supermount or something. Dunno if that generates an event that you can somehow trap; maybe some script could poll /mnt/cdrom every few seconds or something. (And then, for god's sake, check sigs before you run!)
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
My kids are aged 11, 7 and 3. All of them are computer savvy. They use the computer for basically three things:
Make that four.
My baby loves to listen to music and watch the visualizations in iTunes.. it calms him down when he's screaming and puts him to sleep when he's tired. Also all babies like to look at pictures of themselves and other babies... so the iPhoto slide show also works to calm him down.
Seriously, my iMac is the easiest way to put my baby to sleep... making it a wonderful investment!
Of course, he likes the light on the optical mouse and is always reaching for it and trying to chew on it... which is not a good thing.
I think it would be nice to have a simple rugged PDA type computer to use as a baby toy... it could play music with bright colors.. and run simple little games for toddlers.
There are 10 types of people in this world, those who can count in binary and those who can't.
Why do your kids need to be on XP? You even said their games ran fine under '98. Why do they need Office XP to do their homework? If a pc running '98 and Office '97 (or Works for that matter) is capable, then why are you wasting time with XP or Linux? Unless of course you were just looking for an excuse to buy more hardware ('but honey, I have to give the kids our computer to run XP on, we of course will have to get a new one ourselves to replace it since it doesn't make any sense to give the kids the "new" computer.')
Teach your kids how to identify and use the best tool for the job without getting caught up in the technology. I guess when you say you're "cheap" as one of the reasons you want to switch to Linux (even though the intended use doesn't really fit in your case), you mean that your time and your kids time have no value? Oh and in the process you can teach them that time is an asset that you can never get back.
It's important to get the little ones using vi/vim at a young age. :)
Instead of the big brim, it will be a red baseball cap! The mozilla icon will be breathing fire on a city! And the gnomes will be stealing underpants!
Hmmmm, maybe posting this idea isn't such a good idea. Coming next month, Windows K-12!! Clippy now gives your kids advice on drugs, sex, and on how Microsoft has the only real OS (can never start the brain washing too early).
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
I'm rebooting this machine probably four and five times a week
This smacks of an installation problem, or something specific to your hardware. With Windows 2000 and Windows XP I've never had trouble like this. It's rock solid. I'd check all the usual culprits first, like video card drivers.
You might also consider turning off your computer at night and when the kids are at school, etc. With the amount of power a modern PC uses, it's always a win to turn it off when you're not using it for an extended period. (This used to be a point of debate, but no longer.)
Get your kids started on FreeBSD and skip the linux fad, which is dying out as more and more people realize what a hack their kernel is. It still doesn't have a stable vm or a robust default filesystem that respects metadata. Now linux is just a commercial dumping ground for companies trying to make a buck of it.
Try running Linux in a VMWare virtual machine on top of Windows XP. You can get them used to Linux with an easy way to switch back to Windows. You're probably going to have to keep Windows around anyway for the kids' games. http://www.vmware.com
"The advanced societies of the future will be driven by competing systems of psychopathology." -JG Ballard
nothing will protect your computer from the jelly-filled doughnut your 3-year-old put in the cdrom drive
Turning a machine off after you have used it? Not to sound too much like a tree hugger, but I dont see why non essential computers are left on 24/7, is 2mins really too long to wait booting up? Even just turning off the machine when you go to bed saves a bit of money/power until the morning. Over time it all adds up. I'm rebooting this machine probably four and five times a week
Laptop Reviews
I am in a similar position to the one you are in, I have a nine year old and a two year old both of whome love working and playing on the computer.
You said that the games ran fine on 98, why upgrade to XP at all? At that age they don't care about the new features XP offers, they just want their stuff to work. Your 11 year old might complain some, but the other two don't give a flip at to what OS is on there.
As for saving money, you have already had a computer that did everything your kids need prior to the upgrade, just go back to that and sell your copy of XP to a friend. Talk about being cheap, you can make money back on this solution.
My biggest mantra is that the newest isn't always the best, and many times is even worse. In my opinion, for a system where reliability and stability is important, don't upgrade unless there are significant benefits awaiting you, in this case it doesn't sound like there are.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity -RAH
In order to keep your machine from getting fried, I suggest beefing up your main box, give it a real distro like Debian, get a Psomething from eBay, Install RedHat 8 or Mandrake on it, run VMWare from your main box over X to it, and away you go. VMWare allows you to set partitions in a read-only mode that put your VMbox in pristine condition everytime you boot it up.
Personally, on the topic of OS Politics etc. I think it is important that he uses both Windows and Linux (and I am happy he prefers linux ^_^) and that he'll learn to use the best tool for the job.
People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.
How do you save money when you already have the product. Or are you planning on having a garage sale for your copy of WinXP?
That and just exactly who is the 3 yr old chatting with on line? Whats (s)he writing papers on.
Father: Johnny, I think it's time we had a little talk. I know your friends are talking a lot about new experiences they've had, and you may be having some urges to try them yourself. I just want you to know that it's completely natural and I'll answer any questions you may have.
Johnny: Well Dad... I was thinking... well I was going to... make my system dual-boot.
Father: Listen, I know it's tempting. When I was young that's something everybody did, because we didn't know any better. That was a naive time for the computer literate. People experimented with overclocking and case-modding, back before we knew how destructive it was. Now we have more information about that kind of thing and I don't want you to make the same mistakes I did.
Johnny: Ok Dad, I won't do it. Can I date girls though?
Father: Maybe we should have another talk, about computers and how girls feel about people that use them...
At home I have two computers (on a LAN of course). At Windows ME box and a Red Hat Linux 8.0 box. The Linux box is used exclusively by my girls (14, 12 and 9). They have very few problems using OpenOffice and and several websites such as neopets and others which use java applets and flash. My oldest likes to download clips so I paid $24 for cross-over plugin, which got quicktime working well, but not ms media player. The WINE CD-ROM angle isn't likely to work, my understanding is cd-rom games are often copy-protected which is not supported by WINE. You might want to investigate transgaming which has adapted WINE for use is some popular titles.
Give them a Apple II, Atari ST, Amiga, or a IBM PS/2 286. Let them do whatever they want with it. Don't help them with anything. Let them buy all the books, periphials, etc they want. eBay will help.
I'd be that's how 75% of Slashdotter's got their start
get them a Mac. My life has been simpler since I moved my kids from Windows to Mac OS.
They use 9.2.2 and it works fine.
I suggest letting them continue to use Windows XP. If it keeps crashing, they'll complain. When they ask you, "Dad, why does it crash?", tell them honestly that it's because some of the software doesn't have 100% compatibility with the OS. "What can we do to fix it?", they'll ask.
As others have pointed out, the truthful answer is to revert to Windows 98. So why even mention Linux?
What if you asked if they wanted to try out a different OS with different games? Then, install a copy of RH or Mandrake and all of the free games that come with it. Then, set up KDE/Gnome with the right age-appropriate menu for each kid. In this way, you will be using Linux's flexibility to give your kids a better user experience.
Also, what about investing in a bigger HD and copying the CDs to the drive so that your 3 y/o doesn't have to swap CDs and rely on autoload. You could even consider installing VMWare (or maybe Wine, if it turns out to work) so that your kids can go into Windows when/if they want.
Over time, each of your kids will develop preferences on which OS they like.
One caveat, however: One of the best ways to learn about computers is when they're not quite working 100%. Let your kids learn from this on their own. Sometimes, it may take a few hundred program crashes to motivate a kid to read a few HOWTOs.
Amazing magic tricks
As someone who has introduced a kid to both Windows and Linux on a dual boot system (he is now 5), the underlying OS didn't matter one bit. He only cared "can I play my favorite programs?". Wasn't overly difficult to convince him to slowly migrate over to gcompris. It certainly helped that gcompris has been actively developed recently.
For a young child (under age 5), a text processor like emacs or kwrite, some educational software (gcompris), and a painting program (there's one in gcompris, or use the one that comes with KDE, I have both KDE and GNOME on the system) seems to help keep my kid interested plenty. For games, he's so addicted to tux racer that I doubt I could move him off that game if I tried. (Yes, this is the commercial version.)
Yes, kids like to hit random buttons. Way back when, my kid would teach me some interesting built in macros of OS/2. Now, I set him up on a carefully constructed KDE desktop with very few icons on it (double clicking used to be a problem for him), and he is a lot less dangerous.
"I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
I would like to move them off Windows XP and introduce them to something less expensive (free)
Boy will you guys all be surprised when all the really good linux distro's finish moving to non-free licenses. What will you linux junkies have left then? Amiga?
Kids software is notoriously incompatible with actual Windows installations. You're as likely to be fighting with it running Windows XP as you are with Lindows!
Nathan.
"www.cartoonnetwork.com is completely incompatible with any non-windows OS"
Mac OS 9 with IE works fine. That's what my kids use on this exact website.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
http://www.windowsforkids.org
... /snickers
Last update: Oh Wait! this doesn't even exist
Didn't they already try to do that with their encyclopedia software? ("Encarta?")
:)
I vaguely remember something about the description of the computer mouse as being something MS invented... or something.
No matter what you might think of Windows Xp it's much, much better than 98. Don't install Windows 98 for the sake of a few old games as you will regret it for many other reasons.
Free iPods - now in the UK!
One time, my aunt gave me a call (being the family computer specialist) and asked me what it would take to replace a CD-ROM drive. I asked her what had happened.
...HANG FROM IT.
My 3-year old cousin had been playing in the computer room, and accidentially hit the button to open the drive. He saw this, and decided to...
*SNAP*
No more CD-ROM drive.
I told my aunt, go buy a new drive, and just swap it out. My uncle then did that, no problems.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Now, if you and your spouse were 31, 37, 41 or 43 ... I'd be jealous.
Besides the technical pros and cons of Windows v Linux, what about the political considerations?
What kind of message are you sending your kids when they run Windows everyday? Microsoft is a convicted monopoly. Do you want your kids to think that it's OK to support companies with unethical practices?
Would you knowingly let your kids wear makeup that was tested on animals? Would you buy a gas-guzzling SUV for your oldest's first car?
Also, if your kid knows how to use Linux s/he'll have no problem figuring out windows. Also, your kids will have a much better grasp on computer technology.
Unless you have some expensive hardware that is windows only then there's almost no danger in giving up on Windows entirely. I've been using Linux for all my computing needs for years now and I've never found myself stuck.
Macromedia flash works great under Mozilla. OpenOffice reads those word docs that people send me. My printer works, my cd burner, my webcams.... etc.
Have fun!
Copy the WHOLE CD image to the hard disk. Setup wine...get it working for you first.
Setup the kids accounts with access only to their programs.
Develop a PERL/gtk or some GUI that they could use to launch these and make it consist only of buttons...this could be lessened up for the older ones..
Once they get older, intro them to GNOME or KDE
Doing these things would make things easier. Also, while not in the list, you could rig up cron jobs to check how long they have been on and restrict access to x amount of time per day. This is something that is near impossible on Windows.
Gorkman
Thats what my nephew would have been required to write had he taken AP English. And it had to be in Microsoft Word because the teachers were too dumb or lazy to convert plain text.
I laughed and told him Einstein's theory of relativity would have fit in a smaller paper. But its just bizzarre.
When I was in school in the 70's I just typed double spaced 500 word essays for AP English. If school was really for learning expository writing, you could type term papers in Vi, Emacs, Nedit, or Ed. But no-one cares about content now, they just want fancy looking documents worthy of a marketing dept. (Oh, and put a bunch of fancy clip art and decorations around the paper to get that A+)
My wife run's Linux as well, and althought we don't have kids yet, she still needs those coupel of Windows programs...SO I bought Win4Lin (which is like VMWare, but MUCH cheaper!). I made a link to "virtual windows" on her desktop. She just click it, up loads windows, and it runs whatever Windows software she needs (like The SIMS). Not truly a Linux only solution. You do need a copy of windows (Win98 recommeneded) to install into the VM, but it boots faster than windows does! It's identical to VMWare in almost everywat, except that it's Windows only. Give it a try..much easier that booting into Windows for 1 program...
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
I don't love MS by any means, but I have to say that XP is stable. A pain in the ass sometimes, but stable. If you can deal with the annoyance of "let me do this for you" wizards, just stick with what you've got.
However, it would be nice to run a Linux distro side-by-side with XP and let your kids make up their own minds about which one they want to use.
Ok, this is a rather odd question. If I were you, I wouldn't let my kids use GUIs.
Heres why:
When I was growing up, we had a whole bunch of computers with no games and no GUIs. (I'm 21 for comparison). I liked computers, but if I wanted to play a game, I had to make it. Consequently, I've been programming in various forms ( Basic -> Pascal -> C -> C++ -> ASM) since I was 6. Now I'm in college for electrical engineering, and I can outprogram all of my Computer Science and Computer Engineering friends. Basically, that type of logic is much easier to teach to kids while they're younger. I'd say if you want your kids to become more computer savvy, take away the training wheels, the games, et cetera, and start showing them the most basic programming you can find. Start with basic. Obviously it's a retarded language.....but it just might give your youngins a taste for logic.......
Anyways, I'd say go with the Linux with the youngsters. Just give them a cheap computer without X installed, some quick lessons on programming, and see what they can come up with. You'll be surprised.
Karma: Not Particularly Funny.
You said that the stuff they do worked just fine on windows 98, so why not just put that back on there. You dont have to upgrade because there is something new out. Best of all, it's free for you because you already own the required software. Everything works just fine and you can re-image from a backup in like 20 minutes in case of a catastrophic failure.
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
When I built my first computer, I dual booted DOS and Linux. My first PPP connection to the Internet was with Linux (of course, I dialed up to shell accounts before that). This being said, it's worth noting that at the time there was no good desktop alternative (Win2.x and 3.x was crap) for the x86 platform.
As times changed Microsoft caught up and won. I think WinXP Home is a great home platform for x86, or Mac OS 10.2 if you have money to get a new machine.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
My kids are aged 11, 7 and 3. All of them are computer savvy.
I hate that statement. Savvy about what? Are they appliance users or problem solvers? If your kids are real good at finding free p0rn and chats with pedophiles but can't find the O-N-O-F-F switch do you think that's savvy?
I say give them ownership of a cheap Linux box (root and all) and have at it. Do your net-nanny filtering on a proxy/router. If they want to do anything they will learn how to do it or -perish the thought- go do something else less challenging.
Most of the kid's games I have are from Humongous...which has had numerous problems running under WineX. Typically problems with sound card not being recognized by the majority of games.
It's pretty hit/miss. My long term plan stays to move the kid's to a linux box as soon as I can make it simple enough (my sons are only 5 and 7) for them to run the games after I configure the desktop for them.
meh.
So what, you are going to get the old games the kids like to play on Linux? If you hadn't meandered down this path in your arguement against MS, you might have made your case. But instead, you prove that a vast majority of your problems would not be solved by switching OS Platforms, nor would your kids be happy because you are taking away the games "they like to play". Yeah, they'll love Linux for that.
And I'm sorry, if you can't run XP without having to "reboot 4-5 times a week", then you either didn't install it correctly or have some error with your computer. I've installed XP on two different HD's, and have yet to reboot because of "lockups" and the such. I find it hilarious that people that can't install Linux properlly get flamed here, but people who can't install XP correctly is somehow a victim of the evil tyranny that is MS.
This article should be titled nothing more than typical Slashdot Linux Fanboy, Microsoft Flamebait material.
Linux is not ready for beginners yet. It's not even ready for so-called "power users" (which is apparently what you call people who know how to get to the Control Panel in Windows). Hell, I won't even use Linux full-time; I'm far more productive in Windows despite being proficient in both operating systems.
If you force your kids to use Linux, you'll get one of two possible results. The best possible result is that your kids love trying new things and don't mind a long, frustrating learning curve, and will become geeks extraordinaire. The worst possible result is that your kids will take one look at the thing, say "What the crap is this? Where's the Start menu?" and go over to a friend's house to use their "normal" Windows box.
An OS is like a religion in more ways than one. You can force one on your children, but chances are 50/50 that they'll grow to hate it. Let your kids use the OS they're comfortable with, and maybe install a nice friendly Linux distro on another box and encourage them to play around with it. Maybe you can gradually wean them off Windows, but you certainly shouldn't force them or you risk putting them off computers permanently.
Last X-mas, I had THREE kids (males 8, 12, 15) satying with me. Being a gamer and a linux geek, I set up several games on my four computers and the kids went nuts. They'd never experienced a LAN party so it was pretty cool to them. Needless to say, I didn't have $1200 worth of XP licenses on my four computers so we had to make do with Linux, native ports and wineX.
What I really found interesting was that after the kids had opened their presents (including a new PS2) they just set it all aside and went back to playing Unreal Tournament. They didn't really care WHAT friggin OS is on the damn computer, only that it works and does what they want.
Kids are remarkably flexible and have much more open minds than most of us slashdotters. They haven't been jaded by politics, economics, and corporate bad behavior.
Besides, whenever my niece comes over for a visit she always wants to play Tuxracer.
I noticed something ,128mbs ram, 8 gig hdd) has had 330 hours of system idle process and still runs excellently.
my 6 year old harware (p3 450
so i would assume most of your XP issues are user induced, not problems with the OS
training and diligence (oh and yes I only had to load the OS once to get it right)are the keys to sucessful computer use.
Even linux hangs and crashes if you screw with it enough
Well... your kinda stuck.
Director isn't on Linux at this time, so it's ether Mac or Windows. And Mac needs different hardware.
You're running XP. Simply put, XP is 2000 with Xtra Problems. More bugs, more hassles. Downgrade. It's the same NT kernel you know and love, but it's very stable IMHO.
--
# Canmephians for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.net";
My children are 10, 8 and 3 and use command-line interfaces in Linux and Solaris at home apart from using a graphical browser (Chimera) in Mac OS X. Text processing for printing with LaTex, programming and markup with Emacs. The older two are cool with Apache server admin. Unfortunately they use Windows at school.
Getting all their old games working is probably not that important. Kids adapt remarkably well, although there may be some tantrums :0) Also consider what they are "learning" from those games. When was in elementary school I remember having quite a bit of fun figuring out how to get logo to make lots of neat designs. Contrast this to those programs which basically create a gilded prison. They learn how to use the game, not the computer. This isn't to say that those programs are bad, but if your 3 year old has to learn some additionals to get the program to run it isn't a loss.
Blessed are the young, for they shall inherit the national debt. --Herbert Hoover
I've got several computers at home and I too am cheap. Since I didn't want to pay MS a bunch 'o' money for licenses, and I won't steal software - Open Source is my friend!
The first conversion was when my wife and I married. She had used Windows for quite a while and was a little hesitant to make the move to Linux. When I set up a machine for her - Gnome/Star Office/Netscape - she said - "This looks like Windows to me..." She hasn't turned back. My wife is cool!
My 12 yr old niece visited last summer. I asked her if she wanted to chat with her friends on AIM. She enthusiastically said "YES!" I downloaded a new version of GAIM, installed it, and began with the "this is not Windows, but it looks similar" speech. She sat down, changed her default typeface and colors, added her friends to her buddy list and started chatting with her friends. I left the room. She simply did not need my help.
There have been a few things over the years that have not worked well, and some things that we have not yet been able to completely resolve, but that is true of _any_ OS.
Things that don't work well:
1. Clip art - MS does a great job of making clip art easy to find and use in their products. Other companies market clip art, but I have yet to find a clip art collection that is indexed well and easy to use on Linux. I can install clip art on my redhat box, but it's just not as easy as Windows.
2. Fonts - Again, MS makes typeface selection easy. This is _much_better today than it was just a few years ago, but still not quite as easy as Windows. I won't steal fonts either, so font conversion is sometimes an issue when receiving documents or printing them.
3. Games - We don't play many games, but my wife has found a large number of websites with flash-based games that work fine under Linux (Mozilla/Galeon with the flash5 plugin) - She has also found a number of kid-friendly websites that are compatible with Linux. I've got a friend who is on the development team for SOF2. He sent me a copy. I see that it is listed as an application that works under WINE, but I had a problem with the WINE build on Mandrake 8.2. I spent a little time trying to troubleshoot this, but quickly got bored with it and gave up. I booted under '98SE and played.
4. Printing - Two components here: Installation of new hardware, and troubleshooting active print jobs.
4.1 The installation component gets better every year, ghostscript does a decent job translating so that non-PS printers work pretty well, but the management tools (print head cleaners, diagnostic utils) don't work under Linux at all. (Well, to be honest, I haven't tried to get the Windows S/W to work on Linux.)
4.2 Troubleshooting - While Windows does provide a GUI to show the state of jobs in the queue, it too is difficult to troubleshoot. Ask a windows helpdesk tech how often the complain is "I can't print." This has room for improvement on Linux.
5. My digital camera sometimes loses connection to my Linux box. I've found that unloading and reloading the usb kernel module fixes this. I'm unwilling to document/teach my wife how to do this. She could easily learn it, but it's too much hassle for her.
Things that don't work:
1. Online transactions with my bank. My bank does not support any browser other than IE. Additionally, I am unaware of software for Linux that will allow me to download transactions from my bank and transfer money between accounts. I have a copy of VMWare and MS Money that solve this problem, but I'd like to find an open source tool to do this for me.
2. Media content - Between quicktime and MS media solutions being absent on Linux, this is a gap that we have worked around. There's little content of this type that interests my wife, so we've been able to ignore this failing up to now. Real works on Linux and mostly meets our needs based on the occasional use. If there's some content that my wife _really_ wants to see, I can bring home a notebook running XP. Yes, the crossover plugin exists: $25 per machine, and won't be able to support "recent" versions of Windows Media Player.
3. My parallel port scanner - There are no drivers for my old, cheap scanner to allow SANE to consider it a data source. I need to boot Windows to use this device. A hassle, but not a major one since we don't scan all that often. I'm in the market for a cheap, decent scanner. Unfortunately since I strongly avoid products manufactured in China, this limits my options significantly.
<soapbox> China's human rights record is abysmal, and there's no such thing as freedom of religion there. You can be imprisoned for as long as three years without due process, and I know of a woman who is serving two years in a labor camp - convicted of believing in God. </soapbox>
I've been almost MS free (most of my PCs have no MS software on them) for the last five years, and it has been worth it. I have saved a fortune on software licenses, and have been able to keep using very old hardware because I have not needed to upgrade - I can easily turn off services that are not needed. I'm using a P133 as a firewall, and another as a file/print/cron server - and the two Athlon 750's make great desktop workstations. This has saved me $$ on hardware, too.
Based on the good experiences that I've had, I'm planning to help introduce more and more Linux solutions to my company. Linux is great!
Regards,
Anomaly
PS - God loves you and longs for relationship with you. If you want to know more about this, please email me
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
I have two kids. My four year old has her own PC for games. But most of the time she wants to sit with me and watch what I am doing on my machine. When she does, I try to explain how it works.
Kids are very inquisitive. Just having the Linux machine around, and working it yourself will bring out the curiocity in them. They will gravitate to it in their own time simply because "Daddy is using it".
There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
1) You say that XP usually crashes because of old games? So the solution is moving to an OS that won't support those games at all?
2) Have fun when they get to high school and can't play the latest online game with all their friends.
One of the many things I hate. thingsihate.org
best os, i have used, my own pc, has had 2 installs, since 2001, been very,very stable, very few probs, er...few games don't run,
i think old hardware seems to cause probs, but hey, thats OLD news.....
There's a lot of different people here on slashdot. Many are just "me-too"-ers that rant and rave about MS for karma. A lot of FUD gets aimed. I've done it myself, sorry.
However, there are a lot of reasons to hate Microsoft. They've done a lot of bad things and deserve a lot of the negative feelings they get. As far as being unstable, the drivers are still buggy in XP for me, it doesn't like my modern system and still crashes. Maybe it is my hardware, but Mandrake is near perfect. *shrug.*
Ignore the bots. A lot of people in the OSS community don't care too much about Microsoft anyways, they just want good software.
Who is this Anonymous Coward character, how does he post so much, and why is he always such a whore?
Here's an idea. Do us all a favor and let your kids learn to make their own decisions empowered with their knowledge and experience. Brain washing them with Linux is just as bad as brain washing them with XP. Why don't you present each to them and let them try them?
.net, xp, or whatever else they come up with, and all they come to understand is linux, you are penalizing them, not helping them.
Don't forget also, they need to be able to use these things in school. If all the school computers are
A friend of mine had an accident which is a perfect answer to your question. His car fell into a reservoir. Water pressure from the outside was so strong he couldn't open the door. The water shorted his electric system and the windows stopped working.
He's a lucky guy. The water was shallow enough, so his car hit bottom before he drowned. Eventually, someone came and broke one of his windows with a stone.
Power windows are just like GUIs. People who have them feel superior to people who don't have them. But GUIs, just like power windows, stop working in conditions where hand cranks and consoles may save your life.
Checkout Kid's Linux. It is a new site dedicated to this subject.
Let the kids decide. If the machine is locking up, it isn't too hard to train them to C+A+D or power off/on. If they lose their work, they'll eventually learn to save frequently. This is good training for using the machines at school, since they are usually so screwed up that work can barely be done. If you really want to introduce them to Linux, go get one of the $199 WalMart specials with Lindows. My 11 year old long ago surpassed my ability to nudge him toward or away from an OS. Once he learned .configure/make/make install, there was no stopping him. Turn your 11 year old on to OSS, and he'll understand why Linux kicks Windows.
My son really wants a Mac now, since he realizes that with OS X he can have his mainstream commercial games and satisfy his Unix jones, too.
Show the 7 and 3 Y.O. OpenOffice, Gimp and TuxRacer. They'll be fighting over the Linux machine in no time. They really don't care if the software has Micros**t on it or not, they just want it to work and to have fun.
The fact is that your kids are far more adaptable than you are, and will have far less problems making the transition. As far as technical advice on how to do it, here are my suggestions:
WINE: If all of your kids games ran fine on Win98, dedicate a Gig or so to a Win98 install to point WINE at, that should take care of most of the compatability issues. The last time I set up WINE it gave me the option to make copies of the important Windows bits for its own use, that way you don't have to worry about your Windows install being corrupted by anything other than itself. A single Windows install, accesible over a network should be sufficient for anyones WINE needs.
CDs: The real problem here is autorun, which Linux basically doesn't do, and for very good reasons (there may be a way to make it work, but I'm unaware of it). However, it's not that difficult to make an icon that will automount the CD and run the app. If your 3 year old can play the game at all, then s/he can learn to click on an icon. A clean dismount at the end could be problematic, though.
Lock-ups: My personal experience has been that if you use one of the "bulkier" GUIs (like KDE), you will not get more effective stability than you currently have with Windows. I recommend something lightweight. Not only is, say, WindowMaker a lot more stable than KDE, it's also a lot simpler. It might be radically different from the Windows interface, but that may be a good thing. I switched from KDE to WindowMaker a few months ago, and I've found that with proper attention to setup, the easy things (launching Mozilla, OpenOffice, or whatever) can be made incredibly easy, and the really hard things are still possible via easy access to XTerm. Any Linux graphical environment will offer that kind of flexibility, and KDE and GNOME apps will still run just fine if you aren't actively running their prefered envirnment, so long as you have it installed.
Also, no OS will make you safe from 3-year-old caused lockups. If there is any way for you to, say, open another terminal and recover from a command line, your 3-year-old will discover it and lock that up, too. This is just a fact of life that you'll have to learn to live with, at least until the kid gets older and learns not to thrash about on the keyboard.
And finally, my response to all the social conformity advocates telling you to stick with Windows: Would you be as critical if he were swithing to a Mac? Why should switching to Linux be viewed any differently?
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Seriously. It'd be like being a kid with parents don't believe in sugar. Do the little tikes really need to be indoctrinated so soon?
The perfect kid rig is the newest version of IE, newest version of every macromedia plug-in and a tray full of closed source IM clients. Anything else is losing functionality.
Don't worry, they're just about old enough to start their first warez server and we all know the dirty open source road that leads down.
Ok, call me crazy here. Heck, call me eccentric if it makes you feel better. But I don't believe a computer is a good medium on which to give a child games to play.
Consoles are infinitely better for game playing. There are no IRQ conflicts, or resolution errors, or sound card inquiry mishaps. If you own a GameCube, and you buy a GameCube game it typically works, period.
A computer, IMHO, is for work. Writing reports and documentation. Setting up internal PBX systems. Placing more cannon fodder in the path for the OS religious.
With consoles having more and more power with each revision, many are not far behind stand alone PC systems anyway. Also, with systems like the Xbox which are fundamentally a computer system in a box regulated to a specific duty, great amounts of "Only a computer can hope to push the graphics for this copy of 'Quaking under my Halo while my Doomed Sole of Unreal Boots Made for Walking in the Sunshine Part 700'" are being ported to the consoles with the same amount of gameplay as their PC counterparts.
Personally, call me an old fuddy duddy, but I don't think I have a single game installed on any computer I own currently. I do however own a GameCube, Xbox, and PlayStation 2 to get my gaming fix.
Kids really appreciate the "drop it in, push the button, play the game" aspect of consoles as well. If you want your kids to learn Linux. Then give them Linux, and don't worry about any of the games. Just place a console next to it and let them have Mario.
As always, this is just my two cents. No one who knows me is likely to agree with me.
"Genius may shine aloof and alone, like a star, but goodness is social, and it takes two men and God to make a Brother."
Dunno.. I read at three.. and was given a brand spanking new c64 at 4.. It wasn't even my parents toy.. just mine.
To add a bit more to my post-Microsoft's products make it very easy for the user to do very, very stupid things to their pc's. They also have 95% of all the computer idiots out there running their windows...which again contributes to it looking like microsoft's fault.
Not that linux doesn't let you screw stuff up royally, but you have to have a bit of an idea of what you are doing to get started, which cuts off a lot of the really silly users, and if something is wrong in Linux it's easy enough to get through the abstraction and fix the problem, if you know how. Sometimes in Windows things are just broken...and you just reinstall everything to fix it. *shrug*.
Who is this Anonymous Coward character, how does he post so much, and why is he always such a whore?
That compatibility switch has done exactly jack for me the times I've tried it. Maybe this guy had the same experience.
"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
what kind of kid needs to type papers at age 11? anyways, if 1 of the 3 main uses of the computer is gaming, maybe you should look at dual-booting win98 and linux rather than using just linux. frankly gaming under linux sucks (yeah yeah yeah, tux racer. that gets real old real quick).
;-)
yeah, im posting anonymously for fear of the fanatical lets-use-linux-for-everything mods
Your system is crashing because you are using poorly programed games. I used to have most of those for my kids as well. I would think xp would just shut them down like 2000 does but who knows I'll never touch xp (drm concerns). But DO NOT take them off windows. Why restrict what they can and cannot put on their machines. Linux is not suitable for, nor does it have, an extensive childrens programs library. Plus Windows is what they will use in their adult life might as well have them learn something that might actually be on their desktop.
Son, I believe that all people were created equal, that no one should be hurt because they believe a certain thing, or are a certain color, and that people have the right to be free to do and act as they please as long as they dont' hurt other people. But these are just my opinions, form your own as you wish.
The above is ridiculous.
You gotta tell your kids about what is right and wrong. Sometimes that includes religion. Teach kids what is right. If your son or daughter decides to grow up and be a neo-nazi l33t script kiddy gay hacker windows user, or whatever and you don't agree with one of those positions, you still gotta love them. You let them make their decisions - because he or she is an adult and they make their own choices.
You're free to try to convince them otherwise, so long as you don't force it on them.
Who is this Anonymous Coward character, how does he post so much, and why is he always such a whore?
I'm utterly fascinated that you believe everything Microsoft's marketing department tells you.....maybe you should try a google search on Windows XP compatibility problems: you'll find some adobe products won't run, Corel Wordperfect 2002 won't until Service Pack 2, etc. etc.
If he starts his kids using linux, this is what his family portraits will look like!
The Linux Bunch
your better off paying 799 bucs for an iMac than wasting your time and their time trying to make linux useful to you. Linux is pretty stone age as a desktop environment - and with MacOSX you get most of the benefits (and the cost really isn't that much more).
I saw an earlier post for linuxforkids, but I thought gcompris deserved it's own mention even though it is on the linuxforkids.org site. Gcompris is a nice suite of educational games for Linux. All GPL of course.
Bammkkkk
www.sguil.net
The Analyst Console for NSM
Nothing wrong with your OS.. learn how to set it up properly..
I've had Win2K crash ONCE in 1.5 years. And the few times it has frozen has been because i overclocked it.
If the computer crash I suggest you update your drivers.
Isn't that a bit late? By then, change may be difficult or impossible once they are indoctrinated into the "Windows way".
Impossible? Do you think? I don't know you, but I switched from Windows to GNU/Linux at the age of 20. And it wasn't impossible at all. I had a dual boot for about a year, then dropped Windows completely.
I think there's no limit age to switch from Windows to GNU/Linux. It's great if you can get your children to use GNU/Linux, and keep a dual boot so that they don't feel imprisoned. But each parent can do it at when they think it's best.
Margarita Manterola.
I'd like to know why it is you think moving to Linux is such a good idea when it seems that you're incapeable of administering a Windows XP box. And I quote...
I would like to move them off Windows XP and introduce them to something less expensive (free) and more reliable. I'm rebooting this machine probably four and five times a week, not to mention the forever problem of lockups and hangs which seem to happen during the times where the 3 year-old is using the machine. I know the crashes are mainly due to the older games that the kids play which are not totally compatible with XP, but hey, they USED to run just fine under Windows98.
I don't mean for this to be flamebait, but a good Win XP setup does not crash 5 times a week. There are really two likely scenarios: one is that you have a faulty driver for some of your hardware, the other, and perhaps more likely, is that you have software written for Win 98 that is trying to force itself into parts of the OS where it doesn't belong. Do yourself a favor, decide between 98 and XP and do a clean install of one or the other, then be very selective about what you install and allow your kids to run.
But my real concern is the CD-ROM games and Windows based games. I can't see my 3 year-old putting a CD-ROM into the drive and expecting it to auto-load and run like it does on XP -- without issues -- even with a perfect installation of WINE, hey, maybe I'm wrong, but is there a way to have it work as good as windows?
No. Let me elaborate: No. If you want to run Windows CD ROM games, and a slew of other Windows programs then just run Windows. If you want to start introducing them to other less expensive alternatives, try Open Office, Mozilla, GNU Chess/Winboard, and others of the like. Then be prepared to deal with the complaints that at school they have Office XP and MS Word has features A, B, C and D, and why don't we? As they show an interest, get them their own PC and let them have at it.
bance.net
if YOU want to move to linux on YOUR computer and let THEM use it go ahead. If they DEMAND their windows games then just say 'sorry, this new machine won't run them anymore, here's some different ones if you want to play games. You are the parent and as such make the primary rules of reality for them, if you let them make the rules for you it's not worth it being a parent, is it?
Are you really asking a tech question or a social question? I'm reading both here. As to wine, etc, never use it, if I wanted to use windows apps I'd use windows, and no need so I don't. Same with games, big ole waste of time my opinion. Linux has some games near as I can tell, there appears to be some loaded here on this default redhat install I did, only even looked at one of them though, this "tux racer" but then I turned it off. Unlike most guys here I think they suck, but that's just my opinion, doesn't amount to anything. I'd rather build something, or if it was kids, give them real tools instead of playing games on the pooter.
Guess what I'm saying is don't let your kids buffalo you into something you don't want. Also not saying be a tyrant either, but you are the adult and parent, some decisions are your's to make, when they get older if they really want to run something else they'll come up with a way to make it happen, and it'll be at their knowledge level, interest level and skill level, ie, they'll scrounge their own box and goferit. That way it automagically gets done for you, you aren't the bad guy to them, and you eliminate a lot of current headaches and schisms.
I'm doing the same thing. My kids share a win98 box right now and I'm going to build my son a linux box since they are both nuts over frozen bubbles and tend to tie up my laptop to play it. I read somewhere that you can download a linux version of Quake III Arena for free if you have purchased a Windows version. Do any of you know if this is true and if it is, where can I get it? They love playing Q3a and right now we only have two boxes to play from. They want to gang up on their dad.
NAME: Casillas, Luis E-MAIL: casillas@stanford.edu, em@adequacy.org ALIASES: em, Estanislao Martinez, Sylvain Tremblay
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NAME: Flickinger, Dan E-MAIL: flikx@geekizoid.com ALIASES: flikx
NAME: Haberberger, George E-MAIL: ghaberbe@frontiernet.net, George.Haberberger@usa.xerox.com ALIASES: GeorgeHa, Hairy_Potter
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The lameness filter makes it impossible to post this in any sort of aesthetically-pleasing format. To paraphrase Final Fantasy Tactics, "Blame yourself or Rob!!"
I grew up using Windows 3.1. My dad didn't know that much more about computers than I did, so I was originally the one who first decided to try out linux (rh 5.2 to be exact). That was when I was in grade 9, so I was ... 12 or 13 or something.
I just think you should let your kids use Windows for now, and when they discover there's more than just it for themselves, let them choose whether or not they want to give Linux a shot. Personally before I tried decided to actually give linux a shot, I didn't give a flying fuck what OS I was using, I only really care about whether or not I could play my games and shit like that.
1. You get 100% compatibility when you need it.
2. You'll reduce the backlash by not forcing an OS that might not do everything THEY want it to do.
3. It's the perfect way to demonstrate, "Windows is Linux's bitch."
4. Giving enough HD space available, you could give each of them thier own Virtual Machine that they can trash with all the unsafe software they want.
5. Virtual Machines rule!!!
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
I've been 'programming' since I was 7, ok putting some variable resistors(pots) on a board, wiring it upto a BBC and writing some code so I could draw using it.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
you messed up bigtime by ever letting them use windows, BillG likely has already been granted thier eternal souls in a click through agreement of some sort.
get a PS2 -( Sony Playstation game console that is) and let your kids know that windows is there to steal thier souls and corrupt them to the dark side.
I haven't told my kids about Microsoft yet because they're too young to know of such evil things, but you have some damage control to do. Best you can hope for is converting your kids so thet BillG doesn't get your grandkids soul at a later date.
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
Just run Windows under VM-Ware
That way, they can use whatever they want without having to boot back and forth.
It's also the perfect way of saying, "Windows is my bitch."
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
You obviously have a lawyer already, since you managed to reach a settlment with the GPL violator, why not continue to use his services? Slashdot can't really give you good legal advice, what we -can- help you with is comming up with the technical solutions to actually achieve what your lawyers decides is the best course of action.
In general, I'd avoid any solution that relies on NDAs. There are too many ways that too many people could get hamstrung and/or tied up in court for too long by them, especially if any of the commercial developers consider themselves in competition, not to mention what they could do to you in the future (of course your future work is ALWAYS going to be suspect, if you ever venture into any of the areas covered by stolen code).
At first thought, I'd say expect the developers of the commercial add-ons to follow your site, and stand up and go over the code, identifying their code. The problem being that you'd potentially be giving competetors eachother's code, potentially allowing both of them to steal the competitor's code AND sue you for giving their code to their competitor. Of course, any halfway decent lawyer should easily spot things like this.
Perhaps what you need to do is pull out sections of code that you would like to add to the main codebase and then post small sections, which should be enough for the owner to identify the code, but not enough to give away any significant functionality. If a developer can send you the code that follows it, throw that module away. To me, a 90 day period would seem sensible since, as I mentioned earlier, any commercial developer that fails to check your site/release-notes/mailing-list in that long isn't serious. Again, the lawyer can figure out the finer points here.
my sig's at the bottom of the page.
visit Toys 'R Us.
My kid (2 yrs.) has only ever seen computers running Linux. I have a Windows partition but don't use it for much so I have no games or anything fun for her on it. Since all of the fun things are in Linux she already believes that Linux is much more fun and interesting that windows.
She knows enough now that when she wants to play on the computer she asks to "see the penguin and the dragon?!?" since I have a desktop for her with pictures of Tux and Kondi. As an interesting aside penguins are far more interesting to kids than a non-descript flying window thing.
The Debain Jr. package(s) are great for kids, a bit over my girls head but she really likes watching me play TuxRacer and she has fun with gcompris and TuxPaint by herself. We also play TuxTyping and I let her call out the letters as they come down. She is learning quickly although I am not specifically trying to teach her computers or god help me become a programmer. I use KDE and have created an account for her, modified the menus, settings and desktop so that nothing could really happen with that account. No problems with Flash websites.
That is the way. Never take away functionality before you have replaced it. Web browsing works better under Linux now than it does under Windows so you can kill that first. Games and all that can stay with the old doze machine, but you would be amazed at how much more stable windoze is when you don't let it see the internet. Rebuild the old box one more time and then let it die as it will. Then you can take your time learning how to do things in Linux like singing dancing and games.
This is how I got myself and my wife off Windoze. We have one windoze computer left and it's blind to the netword. We boot it every now and then to write CDs. We don't miss it, and it's lasted longer than any other windoze PC I've ever built. When we install something and that program breaks another, the blame is clear cut. My computers are stable and do the things we want. You don't need M$ only services.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
This has to be a repeat comment, but your kids are too young to understand the computer as a thing, much less the OS.
Unless you want to raise video game addicted cranky fat blobs, boot them outside. If there's no back yard, take them to the park. Children should not be glued to a CRT at age 3.
- http://www.ofset.org/gcompris/index.html
There are probably other projects well worth investigating.Maybe as a statistical average, you mean.
I am a skilled piano/keyboard player, but still failed (not technically, tho) high school math. And I'm a geek to boot.
unless your kids a spoiled brat there's no good reason they can't pick up using Linux. As long as it's preconfigured it's just another toy for them to figure out. KDE was used BTW.
Peter
www.alphalinux.org
"I know the crashes are mainly due to the older games that the kids play which are not totally compatible with XP, but hey, they USED to run just fine under Windows98."
This comment is late in the discussion, and I know it probably won't get modded up because of that, but Windows XP has a great built-in solution to that problem. It's called Compatibility Mode.
If you right-click on the program icon, click properties, and click the Compatibility tab, you can tell Windows XP to run a program under "Windows 95 mode" or "Windows 98 mode." This makes the program think that it's running under an older version of Windows, so it (presumably) won't crash because of the new 2000/XP APIs.
Also, it sounds like you've made little effort to diagnose the crashes. Hey, if you want to learn Linux, and have your kids learn Linux, reading system logs is going to become necessary. Start with the syslog for XP. It's in Control Panel -> Administrative Tools -> Event Viewer. Look for any events in the System log around the time your computer was crashing.
I had a friend who was having major problems with XP. XP really doesn't crash that much on a good system. However, he was getting several BSODs a day. I asked him to look in his System log. Guess what it said?
"The driver has detected that device \Device\Harddisk0\DR0 has predicted that it will fail. Immediately back up your data and replace your hard disk drive. A failure may be imminent."
Um. Whoops.
System logs and Compatbility mode are your friends! I'm not trying to discourage you from running Linux, which I think you should at least check out, but you need to fix the problems you have with XP before you move to Linux. Don't go to Linux because "XP crashes" (it shouldn't crash unless you have a problem, which might show up in Linux as well) -- go with Linux because you like it better or it does what you need. In the meantime, troubleshot your XP box and try out compatibility mode -- they will make you a much happier camper.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
I have two little girls, 7 and 4. They use both Linux and Windows, and now I think it is time to teach them (well, at least the older) some programming skills. Logo was the first thing that came to mind, but hey, it's not for the real world! I would like to ask to my fellow /.ers: what language should she learn?. Should it be Java or C++? Maybe Perl or PHP?
If you can read this, thank an english teacher.
So, how about making Linux a choice and letting them decide how much to use it? Show them some of the games available on Linux itself.
Welcome to the net of 1000 lies. Upgrades are scheduled soon that should bring us to the 10,000 lies mark.
Sounds like some people will have a new speech to use on their children.. birds and bees.. right and wrong.. Linux and Windows.
I know I would be afraid of the birds and bees chat if my father asked me to come sit down, I need to show you something.
If you want you kids to learn how to use any OS and/or PC hardware, here is what you do:
1) Show them the latest and greatest games, apps or chat-programs, etc.
2) Let them use it for few days.
3) Erase the OS and dismantle the computer in front of their teary eyes.
4) Tell them if they can't use it until they put it back together and re-install the OS.*Tough Love*
Nowadays used PC parts are so cheap who cares if the hard drive falls down the stairs or a if mouse is destroyed.
people always ask me how i know so much about computers and OS's. My answer is simple, GAMES. How else would I have ever figured out TCP, IPX, OPEN GL, video card secrets and what the heck DMA is for.
You don't need winex for most flash games. You should be able to write a tiny little script that searches for the flash file an opens it in Mozilla.
I was doing QA on some flash games for a while, and it was really neat to see how cross-platform compatible they were. There were zero platform dependent bugs. (Plenty of bugs overall. I work for crappy companies only. It's in the objective on my resume, apparently.)
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
First of all, I must say congrats. It's a bold move, really, and it won't be without hardship. Still, moving the "future of the nation" onto an open source platform really is a good idea, in my opinion, however, if cost is really your only reason, I'm a little reserved in that they're just going to think of you as a "cheapskate", too cheap to buy a real operating system.
As for the hardships, the only thing that I can really tell you is to try and dual boot both for a while. See what will work for them, and what won't. Make sure that you're not doing anything more to them than inconveniencing them. If there are things that they NEED but won't work on Linux, then wait. I'm sure they'll get it soon enough (or there's always the idea of you developing it for them, assuming adequate know-how).
Try and slowly migrate them to Linux, if possible, and make sure that you know how to fix anything they might be able to break. Linux isn't any good if you've got a flock of users doing their best to break it, and you can't undo their mistakes. Again assuming proper know-how, try not to just throw them into it.
Lucky for me, I got into Linux shortly before my daughter was born (she's just now 1 year old, as of 11/11), and plan to bring her up in a completely open source home. We've also seriously cut back on our TV watching and movie-going, and looked for more (in my opinion hippie-esque) traditional methods of entertainment and learning, including yearly museum memberships and the like. Anyway, I'm rambling now, but long story short, I think it's a noble thing you're doing, and I wish you the best.
-9mm-
I consistently find myself wishing I had some other computer monkeys to help me with some of the menial tasks that my work requires .. .the "making license plates" that does so little for me.
.gotta run . .. need to go explain NURBS curves to the 3 year old . . .they grow up so fast . . .*SNIFFLE*
Thankfully, I have a very impregnable wife - she's cranked out two little computer monkeys for me so far - they're 3 and 1, and I figure that within a year or so, I can have them building 3D objects for me, doing the random photoshop cleanup to my texture maps, and generally taking workload off of me so I can spend more of my workday doing what God intended people to do during the workday - play games!!
Oops .
anything i tell you will cloud your opinion.
My daughter is 4 years old and my wife would like to get her started on Reader Rabbit. I have an old P-166 laying around and my wife just bought a whole mess of Reader Rabbit games (all about 4-5 years old) at a yard sale for $10.
Having only a little Linux experience and no WINE experience, has anyone tried getting Reader Rabbit games running under WINE? Will this hardware be enough to do it under WINE?
I would hate to drop the money for 98SE just for the kids to play games, so Linux would rule.
In my experience, very young people typically have few problems learning to use Linux, because they often aren't accustomed to using something else.
I didn't really start using a computer until my freshman year at college; I started out using Windows 98. The following summer I installed Red Hat 6.2, and I ended up using it full time w/few complaints. Interestingly, all my friends who thought the change was "pretty hardcore" had all grown up using Windows. Since I had really nothing to switch from, the transition was pretty easy.
Since your children are all relatively young, I don't imagine Windows is the only language they'll ever be able to speak, so by all means let them use Linux while it's easy for them. If you want them to play their old games, then run a dual-boot until they outgrow that software, and just stop buying new versions of Windows!
I have a 5 y.o niece and 9 yo nephew. I put them on squidguard and allow unftered access to the net. Later, when their momo approves, I will let the older go most anywhere.
It's just something that you have to be prepared for, if you go down this path.
Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.
If you want to inpire creativity and exploration, you owe it to them to move to Linux. The only thing you'll likely have to worry about is getting all the games working. Getting them all to work may be less of an issue than you expect it to be though so I don't think that should stop you. I just set my kids up on Linux. When I got my new PC, I set up my old box as a Linux PC and gave it to my son/daughter. OpenOffice has worked just fine for them for school work. In fact it works better than MS-Word for spanish homework for my daughter. She finds it much easier to compose foreign language characters using it than using Word at school. A few weeks ago, my 11 year old son surprised me by asking me to show him how to use the "black screen" that I often use. He was talking about the command line. I started him off with a beginner's online tutorial because I thought I might have trouble being basic enough. Soon it turned out that what he prefered was to chat with me online and try stuff as I told him what to do. I showed him how he could type the name of a game to run it. He is facinated by the shell and the fact that he feels like he has more control (instead of the computer being in control.) Last night I asked him if he wanted me to switch back to Windows now so he could run some of the games he has complained about not working under Linux. He said he'd rather keep Linux and learn how to do more on it now. What more could a dad want? Switch to Linux. I bet you won't regret it and your kids will appreciate it in the long run.
I would like to move them off Windows XP and introduce them to something less expensive (free)
You make your children pay for the OS?
Most people are so used to crappy software, it's really sad. If a user-space program can crash your operating system, don't blame the program. That's an OS bug. The program may even be totally programtically correct. For instance, printing a tab folloed by two backspaces and another chracter at the beginning of a DOS emulation window will kill all of the WinNT family. XP reboots, the others BSOD If a program crashes itself, that's a program bug. If the program can do anything it's not supposed to do, that's an OS bug.
Copyright Violation:"theft, piracy"::Anti-Trust Violation:"thermonuclear price terrorism"<-Overly dramatic language.
I'm convinced that makers of Windows games for toddlers have never playtested those games with toddlers. Set one down in front of a PC with a game in it, and they will try out every key. Invariably, they wind up bringing up the system menu or such, inadvertantly exit the game, and start deleting icons, etc. Sensible kid games would: 1) Disable ALL input other than what the game controls. 2) Make it hard to exit the game, so that only the parent can do it. 3) Make EVERY keystroke and mouse button event do something interesting for the toddler.
There has to be something seriously wrong with your machine. I have 4 XP machines at home. The one I use almost every day I have rebooted for... well I can't really remember the last time but it had to be more than a month or two ago. The computer my kids and wife use the most gets rebooted maybe once a month. I would seriously look at your setup if you have to reboot multiple times a week.
"Do not be swept up in the momentum of mediocrity." - anon
Microsoft(r) Windows(r) XP Home Edition
m edia/sdk/wmsdk.asp,
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APPENDIX
WARRANTY AND SPECIAL PROVISIONS FOR
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APPENDIX
WARRANTY AND SPECIAL PROVISIONS FOR
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SPECIAL PROVISIONS
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This Software License Agreement is governed by the laws
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APPENDIX
WARRANTY AND SPECIAL PROVISIONS FOR
CANADA
LIMITED WARRANTY
LIMITED WARRANTY. Manufacturer warrants that (a) the SOFTWARE
will perform substantially in accordance with the accompanying
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allow limitations on duration of an implied warranty, so the
above limitation may not apply to you.
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replacement of the SOFTWARE or hardware that does not meet this
Limited Warranty and which is returned to Manufacturer with a
copy of your receipt. This Limited Warranty is void if failure
of the SOFTWARE or hardware has resulted from accident, abuse, or
misapplication. Any replacement SOFTWARE or hardware will be
warranted for the remainder of the original warranty period or
thirty (30) days, whichever is longer.
NO OTHER WARRANTIES. To the maximum extent permitted by
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warranties, either express or implied, including, but not limited
to implied warranties of merchantability and fitness for a
particular purpose, with regard to the SOFTWARE, the accompanying
written materials, and any accompanying hardware. This limited
warranty gives you specific legal rights. You may have others
which vary from state/jurisdiction to state/jurisdiction.
NO LIABILITY FOR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES. To
the maximum extent permitted by applicable law, in no event shall
Manufacturer or its suppliers be liable for any damages
whatsoever (including without limitation, direct or indirect
damages for personal injury, loss of business profits, business
interruption, loss of business information, or any other
pecuniary loss) arising out of the use of or inability to use
this product, even if Manufacturer has been advised of the
possibility of such damages. In any case, Manufacturer's and its
suppliers' entire liability under any provision of this agreement
shall be limited to the amount actually paid by you for the
SOFTWARE and/or Microsoft hardware. Because some states
liability for consequential or incidental damages, the above
limitation may not apply to you.
This Software License Agreement is governed by the laws of the
Province of Ontario, Canada. Each of the parties hereto
irrevocably attorns to the jurisdiction of the courts of the
Province of Ontario and further agrees to commence any litigation
which may arise hereunder in the courts located in the Judicial
District of York, Province of Ontario.
APPENDIX
WARRANTY AND SPECIAL PROVISIONS FOR
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND ANY OTHER
COUNTRY
LIMITED WARRANTY
LIMITED WARRANTY. Manufacturer warrants that (a) the SOFTWARE
will perform substantially in accordance with the accompanying
written materials for a period of ninety (90) days from the date
of receipt, and (b) any Microsoft hardware accompanying the
SOFTWARE will be free from defects in materials and workmanship
under normal use and service for a period of one (1) year from
the date of receipt. Any implied warranties on the SOFTWARE and
Microsoft hardware are limited to ninety (90) days and one (1)
year, respectively. Some states/jurisdictions do not allow
limitations on duration of an implied warranty, so the above
limitation may not apply to you.
CUSTOMER REMEDIES. Manufacturer's and its suppliers' entire
liability and your exclusive remedy shall be, at Manufacturer's
option, either (a) return of the price paid, or (b) repair or
replacement of the SOFTWARE or hardware that does not meet this
Limited Warranty and which is returned to Manufacturer with a
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And, It'll cost more of that precious money he wanted to SAVE by using Linux. He'll need to pay however much XP costs, plus the $300 for VMware. Good thought, but remember the original post.
XP has a feature that is supposed to emulate the older versions of windows for backward compatibility. Just right click on the icon, select properties, compatibilty, select "run in compatibility mode" and check off 95 (or whatever).
You can also enable this emulation on 2000.
If you are doing this for your kids then games (or the lack thereof ) will be the biggest problem. They are going to want to run all of the kewl games that their friends are playing most of which do not have a Linux version.
/. realize that if we want proprietary software companies to support us we have got to be willing to spend money on their products. It's the only way that we will ever be able to go into a computer store and find all of the really kewl games written for Linux as they are for Windows now.
Transgaming has a version of WINE that is making progress running a lot of windows games but I have heard that there is a heavy performance hit so they don't really run as they do in native Windows.
I believe that in the coming years more and more gaming companies will begin to support Linux so even if you decide not to give them Linux now, keep an eye on switching. The games that do have Linux support run great and you don't have to worry about system crashes. The Linux version of Quake 3 for instance is rock solid and actually has better frame rates than its Windows counter part. You might also consider a duel boot. Then support Linux whenever possible by buying Linux products if available.
I am hoping that all on
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
I'm not sure which is funnier - the troll of an original question ("I want Windows, only not") or the volley of "Keep using Windows" advice that followed.
You want to know why MS has a monopoly? You want to know why Linux isn't ready for primetime? Go back and read over the responses here. Even the most gung-ho Linux responses amounted to "This will be broken, these other things will require a lot of fiddling, some things may work, more or less, out of the box, and your children will be social outcasts because they don't use the same OS as everyone else."
Maybe our next milestone should be to make Linux kid friendly, where "kid" is NOT someone capable of recompiling and tweaking source code. A free alternative is a lot less compelling when it doesn't work as well as the paid options, and technical superiority amounts to a hill of beans when Linux is a painful experience for normal families.
Meanwhile, chalk me up on the "Keep using Windows" side. It's not exactly a case of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," but Windows is probably less broken than Linux in this situation.
MC
After being faced with the same dilemma and trying every scenario imaginable, I settled on Mandrake 8.2 (now upgraded to 9.0) dual boot with win98. I've found that there are just too many games that require direct x or other to run any other windows version. Win 98 also must be used for my twain digital camera and scanner. Mandrake boots by default and my children have learned to boot and shutdown without a problem. they understand that as long as we have windows on the machine, rebooting is a fact of life. I know it's a sad story.
... make sure you do it right.
"I know the crashes are mainly due to the older games that the kids play which are not totally compatible with XP, but hey, they USED to run just fine under Windows98."
I'd guess the games you're having problems with are DOS-based games (I haven't run into any issues with any pre-XP 9x-native games on XP, and if I did I do know how to turn on the 9x emulation in XP). The reason you're having issues with DOS games is because, unlike 9x, there is no DOS (only Zuul).
So what makes you think that things are going to be so much better on Linux? DOSemu is itself just a DOS emulator (like XP's CLI) with the disadvantage of the coders not having access to the original MS-DOS sourcecode. There's FreeDOS that tries very hard to be MS-DOS with some success, but it's still not MS-DOS. If you're trying to run, say, the original Warcraft II, I'd say you'd have more problems trying to run it under Linux, not less. And you'd also be then emulating Windows software as well as DOS. DOSemu and WINE work best when they have "real" DOS and Windows installations to work with, so you'll still probably end up having at least two OSes on your HDD. You'd probably be better off just dual-booting between XP and some flavor of DOS (98, Me... hell, I think IBM still sells PC-DOS 7.0/2000).
If you want to switch your kids over to Linux because you're a GPL zealot (Microsoft BAD, beer GOOD), just admit it to yourself and the rest of the world. Don't try to dig for complaints that are baseless, they just give you and the rest of the GPL crowd a bad name.
you've got 'em all logging in as root under xp I guess (that's the default user in a typical XP install) so sure, xp will crash when a 3-year-old is on it. Linux, with everybody including a 3-year-old logged in as root, surrre, that'll run real good. Easy to troubleshoot too.
"I know the crashes are mainly due to the older games that the kids play which
are not totally compatible with XP, but hey, they USED to run just fine under Windows98."
It's called the NT kernel, dude. Maybe you'd like to do some searches about
newer versions of (Windows, Mac OS X, Linux) breaking applications.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The poster wanted examples of what other people where doing do here it is:
I have two boys ages 8 and 5. They get a small amount of computer time (30-60 Minutes no more). They play outside with each other and friends. They look at books (5 year old is just starting to read) and read books. They play with legos and other toys.
My 8 year old has been using the computer since he was about 3. He uses linux (debian), Windows 98 (for education games) and Macintosh (OS 9) for education games. He likes linux the best so far mostly because he like the older / classic style games alot. He like mostly the educational stuff and games, not really into the hardware or how a computer works.
My 5 year old almost exclusively uses linux (debian) can recognize the logos for debain, RedHat, Suse and Mandrake. He uses both KDE and GNOME window managers but likes fluxbox the best (it is pretty funny listening to him say that without the l). He is a TuxPaint artist! He does use Windows 98 for some educational games, however he says he would rather have Windows 95. He would prefer that I get his programs to work with wine.
People tend to reject ideas and beliefs forced upon them by authority figures. If you want your kids to make informed decisions about Windows and linux, let them discover the pitfalls of Windows themselves while you play away with your linux box in the den. If you've only got one computer to use, maybe you can scrounge up the cash for a simple machine that can run their games and browse nick.com while you transform your main machine into whatever you want it to be.
Offer guidance and choices, not mandates (Mandrakes?) on which OS they have to use and like.
...and that's the way the cookie crumbles.
...and considered the whys and why-nots extensively.
Why? Basically for one, and only one reason: Easier to administer on MY end. I can create a user account for them and then they can bang on the box all day long without me worrying about them fucking something up. The most they could mess with is stuff in ${HOME}. Not like they have a whole lot of critical data at age 8.
Why not? Games. Because honestly, at the age that my kids are at, that is pretty much what they use the computer(s) for. Will most of those games run under Wine? Yeah, probably. But that is going to be a real pain in the arse, and my one and only heading under Why is for ease of administration. And when you start mucking with Wine, that goes out the window (no pun intended). Not to mention that games don't autorun (as mentioned previously), and in general things just won't work like they are used to.
So, my next option is to just create a Ghost image with a minimal win98 install, some of thier favorite games pre-installed, and just re-image every few months when they screw up the system so much that it won't boot properly.
And don't give them write access to the pr0n directory on the fileserver. That's an important part.
GIR: I'm going to sing the Doom song now. Doom doom doom doom doom doom de-doom doom doom doom doom doom doom...
Young kids don't understand the value of a dollar nor the importance of freedom and until they do it's silly to force it on them.
Young kids understand what they are given the opportunity to learn. My 2-year-old knows what money is, and she knows that we have to buy things before we can take them out of the store. She knows where to put the item on the checkers counter, and at which point she will be able to handle the item again. That these things are bought with money shouldn't be difficult for her to understand, and if she hasn't figured it out already it's only because I prefer to be cashless.
Likewise, any kid that has been grounded or put in time-out knows the value of freedom. Relating it to software may not be a simple thing, but they already understand the basic concepts.
The whole "kid friendly software" thing is a straw-man. How many of us had kid friendly software when we were kids? Even the games I loved and played all the time would be considered kid hostile by todays standards, and yet I, a kid, had no problem using them.
Retraining is an adult issue, not a kid issue. Kids adapt quickly and easily, they have to; the bulk of their first 20 years is largely training and retraining.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
My eleven year-old sister has grown up on Windows. She's seen me running a few Linux computers in my room, and when I had to install an OS on her machine (after a nasty crash), she asked for Linux. Since then, she's fallen in love with Linux and surprisingly, I didn't have to teach her much at all. She found all the games, OpenOffice, gaim, and everything she needed on her own and figured out how to use them without my help. Now she's begging our dad to get her a faster computer for Christmas so she can play UT2003!
:-/
Now if I can only convert my dad to Linux, we'd have 8 out of 8 PC's in our house running Linux.
Here are the current statistics for the Flash Player adoption for each version: http://www.macromedia.com/software/player_census/f lashplayer/version_penetration.html. Flash 5 is about 92% and Flash 6 is about 53%.
cpeterso
Technically, I would repartition, keep a dual boot for a while, and start buying games for Linux. This will help them have a smooth transition. You can read a lot about the cons in other posts, but to me the big picture is: your kids can do their stuff in Linux. They just won't be able to use every possible game. But then again, if they are hardcore gamers, maybe a games console will do the job. For most other tasks, you should be golden with linux. And the legaci win* partition will help you in the few remaining cases. And by buying Linux stuff you will help it become more popular and in the end your family will be making a difference.
I know for a fact that its beneficial for people to at least start using computers at a young age. I started tinkering around with computers when I was 9... I got into the habit of 'messing around till it works', which sadly seems to work better than using manuals. Anywho, I can figure stuff out, or make things work alot quicker than alot of my friends who have taken courses to learn how, I can also adapt quicker to different scenario's because of this. My brother started teaching himself to program even before all this, and even without any University, he's a high-paid programmer for a big company that flies him all over the world.
;)
But you've got to watch it. If they do reports, play games, do some chatting online with friends, no matter what age they do this at, as long as its supervised (which it sounds like it is) then its all good learning. And THEY are doing it, so they must like it, which means they will learn it quicker than if you force it on them.
Changing to a different OS might fix problems like software crashes and the like, but from personal experience, its alot more confusing to use than windows. Unless your prepared to learn how to use it well enough to do EVERYTHING for them (at least for the first little while) then you'd best to stay with windows. So you have to reboot it every few days. At least when your not rebooting, they can install programs they need, and basically figure out how to get around.
On a side note, there are only 2 people at my office that know seemingly anything about computers. We've both used them for numbers of years. Everybody else didn't. Everyone else (and i'm meaning EVERYONE else, whether same age or twice as old) haven't a clue about them. At all. As in we get called to 'fix' the BSOD. They can't even remember a simple cold boot process.
Ha. I think i've rambled enough. Sorry about that folks. But seriously, as long as they don't use it JUST for chatting all the time, then it should be fine... no matter what OS they use. just don't change stuff on them in the middle of it all.
Now excuse me. I must go put more arthritic cream on my 22yr old fingers.
KIDDING
they USED to run just fine under Windows98
So run Windows98.
Also, if XP isn't stable, there's something else wrong. I'm running two XP installs, and my wife/kids 10/5 yr old) run Windows 2000 (my headless servers are all Linux).
In my experience, when the kids Win98 / Win2000 boxes get flaky, it's because they've been loading all kinds of crap from Cartoon Network or wherever. Spy Kids goofy crap that has mechanical bugs creeping out from under windows, crazy screensavers, spyware, you name it. If I clear that crap off the machine gets stable again.
I did have to tell the kids "Sorry, that game just isn't going to run anymore" for a few games that they used to play under Win98, when we moved to W2K.
I wouldn't mind moving them to Linux either, but I realized that I'd spend all my time getting Linux to emulate Windows, and that seems kind of silly; they're already running Windows, Linux + Wine isn't going to be any more stable than Windows 2000, which I've seen make 3 month uptimes before. Why should I put a bunch of my time into building them a system that, with a lot of work, they'll be able to use almost as well as what they already have?
loves playing the games on my mandrake box. She uses windows 2000 on her computer but as soon as i setup up a wireless access point and get her connected to my cable modem so she can ditch aol she'll be using linux as well. One look at tux racer and some of the other games that came with the installation was all it took. and its her idea to switch also!for webbrowsing, email and aol instant messenging, their shouldn't be any compatibility issues. she can use open office for all her school reports and use the dusty laptop i have with win98 in my closet for the rare occasion she needs something windows flavored.
My wife required virtually nil training to adjust from Word on win98 to OpenOffice on kde.
I showed her the icon for OpenOffice, left the room and when I came back her document was already halfway out of the printer.
She had worked out how to do bold, underline centred text, different fonts and all that based on previous experience with Word.
The original question involves games and stuff, but for anyone wanting to do this with wordprocessing, email and web surfing, linux is ready.
My wife is not a techie and had no complaints about kde + OpenOffice.
You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
I have 3 girls aged 7,12 and 14. They all use mandrake even though I have w2k installed as a dual boot. They use it for all the games and hardly ever start windows. There are problably about 100 games that come with mandrake and I have bought all the other games I could for Linux. (Quake3, Fakk2 Civ3, Rune, Halls of Valhalla etc etc.
Flash games and java games (runescape) work fine with mozilla.
You'll probably have to start off with dual-boot and when you install linux make sure you have a separate home partition. It makes upgrading much easier..
Regard Kenneth
I am using keyboards (as in Computers) for about 20 years now (26 years old, started with a c=64 typing listings blah, blah) and my fingers feel fine. I guess its mostly because i always chose a keyboard that felt comfortable even if it was a bit more expensive. I believe that there wont be a better interface than using a keyboard for the next 20 years so i try to keep my fingers alive til then. But i experienced a mousearm once. When i told my boss about it he got us some of those gyrotwister things and we use it like hell since its fun. And it helped to cure the mouse arm. I guess they wont work with your fingers but you could try one of the fingertrainers some guitarplayers use, but maybe it could make it even worse..not sure...good luck and get well soon...
take care,
Lispy
I have a 3 year old who knows his way around a computer better than the sales people at my company. ;)
Anyway, I have a dual boot machine, RedHat 7.2 (KDE 3) & XP. As unreliable as some games are under XP, they are far worse using WINE. Some are not even playable (Disney games). Check out Wine Application Database for more information on compatibility. Also, the system requirements are greater running an app under Wine.
Surfing the web was no big deal. Mozilla & Flash work great.
An issue I had was in the login sequence; he could click on his username and log in (no password assigned) on the XP box, while in Linux he had to have me or his mom type in his username to log-in. That's fine for parental control and a computer in another room far off, but our computer is in our living room where we'll always see him, and it's convenient for him to log in whenever he want's to use it.
-krashishKid friendly software is not a "straw man." It's just that adults misunderstand what a kid needs to learn software.
It's not big, pleasant buttons that make a software package kid friendly. It's familiar terms and words. When a kid wants to write a book report on dolphins, it does no good to present them with the option to create a new template, "legal preceding" or fax. When they want to see what something looks like, offering them an outline or master view doesn't help them. Furthermore, children think VERY linearly...programs that reformat their work based on paragraph settings after they've already typed it and tried to change the stats further down the page are just confusing.
Incidentally, these are all signs of bad programs for adults, too.
Hey freaks: now you're ju
. . . and I'm wondering about something. What is the best way to switch them from eating with a spoon to eating with a fork? Right now they like the spoon because it's easier to eat the food they like, such as soup, cereal and applesauce. I would like to switch them over to the fork soon, because I believe the fork to be technologically and morally superior to the spoon. I think they might hurt themselves at first, so I'm thinking of easing them into the whole thing with some sort of spork. Has anyone tried anything like this before, and if so, do you have any advice one way or the other?
I've used a fork exclusively for the last few years. Some people say that the fork doesn't have as many applications as the spoon, but I think as long as people are willing to change the way they eat just a little bit and learn a few new moves, they will agree that the fork works much better than the spoon. I've been been watching the Foon project, and I've seen some pictures of people eating icecream, pudding, and even beef stew with a fork! With a little more work on this project, I think even Grandma and Uncle Joe will be able to throw away their spoons in the next two or three years.
Well my mommy and daddy can afford the $150 it costs to upgrade Windows XP every four months while your mommy and daddy are poor and have to use that Linux like they do in India and China and that means you can't go to my party 'cause everyone in my class downloaded the new ICQ and your version of kicq has to catch up so you can start talking to us over the internet again.
Downvote me and call me cynical all you want, but look into your heart, you know it will be true...
http://edu.kde.org/
Hey wow.. they have a fair bit of stuff done..
http://edu.kde.org/screenshots/
I may need to download it to.. err.. see if it will be good for my kids... when I eventually have some.
Although you seem keen to move away from XP for a variety of reasons, I would just question your issues with the win98 games. Have you tried fiddling with compatibility mode under XP. It will let you fool an application into thinking it's running on a Win98 box and (in theory) increase the stability of your games.
YMMV of course
The Romans didn't find algebra very challenging, because X was always 10
Two words: child abuse.
Hey, Windows users, there is no such thing as "forward" slash, there is only slash and backslash.
Something else is wrong if you're rebooting 4 or 5 times a week.
Why does the article's author feel the need to leave his home computers on 24x7? Don't his children ever sleep? Save yourself some power and some hassle, and power them down every night when the machines are not being used. Even Windows XP can stay up a whole day.
No, He's saying Linux beta quality is generally better than windows release quality. I know this sounds like a standard slap at Microsoft, and I guess it is, but I've found it to usually be true as well.
My 12 y.o. daughter has had no difficulty moving to Linux, and uses OpenOffice to do her homework. She uses the (KDE? Gnome?) AOL instant messenger client, no problem, and is happy as a clam with Opera, though some specific Harry Potter sites don't work. She's also quite happy with the selection of games (mostly puzzles, actually) that are available in the comprehensive RedHat install.
My 15 y.o. son exists on Tribes 2 and other games, for which 3D drivers don't yet exist for our ancient graphics card on Linux. As a result, he's now running our newest Windows machine. Homework? He's too busy gaming and messing with the System Policy Editor on his box (and pulling A's)
My wife (age witheld on pain of death, but multiple doctorates) won't run Linux unless it's absolutely indistinguishable from Windows, so we're dual-booting.
I'm an official Unix Old Fart (Bell Labs, 1970's), so no huhu either way for me.
Flash works fine with Mozilla 1.2a/1.2b. (It may not work with Mozilla 1.1a.) Java, on the other hand, does not (at least not with Mozilla compiled with GCC 3.0 or later).
The problem isn't flash, its director. Basic flash exists on linux and works great, flash with director, (which uses activex stuff) doesn't exist. The kids sites make heavy use of director. My wife likes to play these kiddy games, so I ended up buying the Crossover plugin. Now those stupid sites work pretty well.
Also the benefit of linux IMHO isn't about the money. Its about the freedom, and really learning how a computer works.
They misunderestimated me. -- George W. Bush
This discussion seems to be quite related to life these days. Try switching an operating system and there is a solid split between yay and nay. My school is a great example, we had a Win2k Webserver and the principal was wondering why we should move a webserver off of windows!
=]
print 'Hello world!';
http://compbrain.net
I started out on an old Compaq Portable (read: luggable). That thing was great. I would practice typing in the word processor, play my math games, and etc. I remember one day, I found a big box of disks, and proceeded to boot off the DOS 2.33 disk and see what was on them. I managed to teach myself DOS when I was 6.
Then we upgraded to a blazing 386 SX at 25MHz with 2MB of RAM and a huge 70MB hard drive. I remember staying up very late on numerous nights tweaking my autoexec.bat and config.sys so I could play DOOM.
From there, we got a Pentium 166 with 16MB and a 1.2GB drive, and eventually a P3 450 with 128MB and 8GB.
Then I moved out and got a P3 800 512MB 70GB which is what I still use today.
every time you press Search in Explorer
that Fear enough for you?
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
The youngest now uses Kword and the oldest uses Star Writer for writing assignments. They had absolutely zero problems making the transition and are now much more comfortable working different word processors. All their past work in MS word format works perfectly. The wife loves Kmail and Xmms. They're very happy with all the the games on Linux and everyone is happy with Mozilla and its ability to disable popups, etc.
I still run Win98, Win2000 and RedHat on an older PC for Games and Windows apps. My youngest has no problems choosing and booting the proper OS using Lilo on the old PC but continues to beg me to get RollerCoaster Tycoon running on our new Linux PC. He prefers using it over the old one. Everyone in my family is now up to speed with the concept of individuals having their own login and desktop. I basically keep Windows off the Net as much as possible and we read all e-mail under Linux. This Multi OS arrangement works well for us. Have no fear, Linux PCs make great family computers! We've already solved conflicts by having one kid ssh over to the Linux box and do their homework remotely from the other PC. Mom now thinks Dad is brilliant! ;-)
-Frank
Back to the subject... As for making games run, try the following links: link1 link2 link3 on how to get older games to work with XP. One piece of gouge that is not above but I have read in a magazine is that you can try copying the game to your hard disk, then running the SETUP program in compatability mode. I haven't tried it but it worked for whoever wrote the article.
"It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
I just converted my 5-year old to Linux, and now the little bugger's hands keep twitching and he won't boot! (Not sure Windows would've fared any better, the CD-ROM is the same size...)
You, all right, Dad?! I learned it by watching YOU!
Who cares about your boring life?
Just my $.02.
Buy an iMac and a Digital Camera - encourage the kids to explore their own creativity on a machine designed for personal expression.
For games, no worries, Flash and Java (read games.Yahoo.com) games play great.
For word processing, Appleworks with a great PDF engine native to the entire MacOSX experience.
For your own personal play time - dual boot with Linux and MacOSX - or, Virtual PC w/ RedHat 7.3.
For cost, consider long-term maintenance (or, in this case, ease-of-), stability, life-span (find a Mac geek, ask how many of their old Macs are still running useful apps), and no more Microsoft licensing BS.
Or, if you just want to skip it all together... Run linux for the machine and buy a GameCube or Playstation 2 (or, for that matter, a DreamCast running Linux and/or any games you want).
That's it for me.
-treeandorange
(Wheee! my first troll!)
I was 17 then, to give you an idea, and she was 12, prior to linux she didn't know about computers, it was my computer. she saw me play doom, and wanted to play, she saw the gameboy emulator and wanted to play. Well, I had no window box at home, so she had to learn to at least boot up linux, start up X, start up doom or vgb. Oh yeah, then I started showing her network related things, IRC, ftp, telnet, and before long she could navigate just fine to linux. I can't believe you are all are saying teach them windows, teach them windows, before there was windows when there was
DOS, did you not all learn how to use DOS and it's CLI? Where you all stuck on Amiga and MacOS? I think not. Don't underestimate kids, oh yeah, to give you an idea of our background, we are blacks, and just migrated to the country from Jamaica 2 years before all this. We had no idea of this then. Now, my sister is 17. She knows how to use any variant of Unix very well, prefers OS X tho, loves to program in python, but she is going to school for medicine! So, just cuz your kids use computers doesn't mean they will end up becoming computer geeks, and they can do it.
"but hey, they USED to run just fine under Windows98."
So what. An OS should be backwards compatible to what, the mesozoic era? C'mon. Fuck Redhat borks gcc every release. Apache 2 is not backward's compatible to mod_this or mod_that.
When my sisters (11 and 17 at the time) were getting into fights about sharing the elder's 98 box, I gave the younger one an old pc I'd setup with redhat 7.2, told her the passwords, suggested they share and said "have fun." The 11 year old picked up what she needed easily enough and ran it happily until the harddrive gave out.
My older sister never touched the linux box. Now the Windows box is on the way to computer heaven, and she's stuck in college with no computer and little money, afraid to decide between spending an extra $200 for a "familiar" OS or getting a linux system and pocketing the savings.
At your kids age, I'd suggest getting together a second linux-box they can use whenever it suits them (most likely when someone is on the XP box at first), and count of their kid instincts to teach them what they need to know. Later, they'll be able to decide for themselves what works without too much fuss, and that's probably the best thing anyway. The alternative "migration" might be to just switch and tell them it's too bad about windows being so expensive, but probably you'll just wind up with an 11 year old saving his allowance for the day he can afford to pay Micro$oft.
Wait... This guy knows about Linux and has not one but THREE kids?
Personally I don't think you should blame old game for crashing with old games. I can play 99.99 percent of games that I own (I am a Preserver of Games most of my games came out when win 3.1 and DOS were popular) you just need to know how to give the computer a little TLC... either that or you are using XP Home.
Have 3 kids, 12y/8y/4y. Online since '95, have only connected Linux to the internet, computers always dual-boot, removed office S/W from windows 3 years ago, OpenOffice is good.
Kids run their eduS/W and games on Win, we've stayed on 95 until two months ago, now using 98 (because of Lego RIS 2.0). For homework they use Openoffice/Netscape, no harder/easier than MSOffice; I had to tell 12y old to stop using kOffice while it was unstable.
The kids always loved the many games on Linux, available from the menu (no CD needed). An all time favorite: "Xpilot".
For dual-boot any version of Win is fine, delete all network protocols for the networking/dial-up card and Win won't go online. Kids find friends' Virus stories weird.
Linux Desktop/Office/WWW/Flash/Audio/3D/Video has improved tremendously and at an exciting rate over the last years and even months.
Kidds that prefer a dull game-less machine above a one that's loaded with it ? wahahahahahaha
Sure, and you can have sex with another human.
At least I heard it was possible.
wahahahahahahahaha
don't force your kids to use linux. Let them use whatever. When they grow up, they will use linux if interested. If they aren't, then they won't. Does it really matter? Does anyone look back at life and say, I wish I had used a different OS?
Let's all look at what kind of toys they could use. Running stupid little games (sorry) like console stuff isn't working. The graphical games look like they climbed out of 1991. Let's not blame/use our kids for using software that is stable to try to turn it into a teletubby os. Moi
try running them in winblowsME and you'll know why they lock up. seems to me that they used the ME engine for backwards compatibility. part of the "get everyone on big brotherware" push by m$. i have a couple of old 98 licenses lying around, u email me, i'll mail em to ya for the cost of the stamps (just the book w/ the numbers) so your kids can play games. have had awful problems with pre-xp appz on 98. have u thought of going mac???/
"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." - Rahm Emanuel
My 9 year old daughter used Redhat for approx. 2 years and likes it very much. It has dual boot though, due to Harry Potter.
My youngest kids (3 and 5 y) run windows only since there is just NOT good support for good programs like the "Blaster" series through any wine(x) (and I have tried them all). It would have been nice though since there is quite some maintenance on their PC.
I have it working resonably by the help of 'TweakUI' and copying the CD's to the harddisk.
It's a great shame that Transgaming are not working harder on such products. I'm sure that they would gain a lot, since those programs are somewhat basic, thinking that most basic problems with winex would hereby be easyli identified and solved.
"...learning how to type using emacs."
The next think you know the kids will be fighting...
"vi!"
"Emacs!"
"vi!"
If the TOC of Linux was lower than Windows, you would see many more companies going for open source than you do now. I love free software, but there is always a cost associated with something you get for 'free'. Wake me when the open source communities are interested in marketing and business models. Not a jab at open source, but that has not been the focus.
i rememebr reading through the manual for my spectrum when i couyldnt have been more than 5 or 6 and getting a game to load off of a casette...im pretty sure i figured that out myself as my parents are pretty computer illiterate. Im pretty sure anything you through at them...be it linux at home or windows/mac at school will be absorbed pretty quick. Thats assuming you havent produced any idiot children.
Saddly, this won't work, particularly not with games.
I use vmware extensively in testing and the major limitation is direct access to sound and video. Try as much as you like, you can't get most games working this way.
I agree with the other person who replied that this is also an expensive way to go.
I have the same desire to switch my kids to linux from XP, but have yet to find a way of doing this that still lets my teenage boy play star craft and my younger son play nhl2002 (or my wife to play sims saddly).
cheers.
get a fucking life buddy. I don't think your 11/7/3 year old give a shit about open source or linux. They will have plenty of time to listen to all the "information should be free, support open source now!" bullshit that all the wonderful 'anti capitalist' college professors will be spewing into their brains for the four years they (hopefully) attend college.
I'll make you a deal. You pray to God for help and I'll stop the moment he shows up.
In my opinion, forcing them onto Linux is just the wrong way to go. You need to keep them open to Windows and Linux.
/. parentals have been doing things like taking away internet if they boot windoze. Let the kids use Windows for now, because we all know that they have no use nor the care about the litlle insignificant problems that are in Windows.
I think its amazing that some
Their kids, so you should let them be kids.
Slash-for-Thought
easy buddy, lets not scare the kids with that language...to reply to your comments, i think its as equally opportunistic to use a *nix variant than a windows based machine. i guess it all depends on if dad knows *nix well enough to administer it
If your kids want to play games online, there are very few games that work well and without major hitches in Linux. Furthermore, if your kids like to play online games made with shockwave, good luck. IMHO, Linux is better than Windows, but it still lacks the AOL-type of ease that most kids want/need.
Case
I think my principles are reachin' an all time low
A good friend of mine recently moved his entire family from Windows to Linux. He'd been dabbling with it for sometime, and finally decided to begin moving his family over after growing tired of frequent crashes and misbehaviors. His wife moved first. She took to Mozilla and OpenOffice without any trouble. His youngest followed, and is doing just fine with those apps. She's really enjoyed customizing her GNOME desktop and the standard complement of games in the distro. His eldest daughter was the last in the queue. She is a freshman in college this year, and had her PC hacked the first week of classes. (I assume he sent her off w/ a patched and closed system, but obviously he missed something.) He first thought about a hardware firewall, but then decided to just move her as well. She's running Linux, and has had no security incidents so far. Open Office is working just fine for her as well. The entire family is running RH8 including his main machine which acts as a print and fileserver in their home.
I have recently been playing (only a little) with Xandros and it's looking like the best distro for desktop usage by people needing WinXX "look-n-feel". It's got both crossover office and crossover plugin and is the easiest distro to install and get running (for WinXX people). I would higly recomend trying it and seeing if it would fit your needs. I do know that, for the requirements you have, Mdk and RH are not the best options.
--
If I actually could spell I'd have spelled it right in the first place.
I suspect my story is the same as many others here. My Windows PC has alot of good educational software and games available for my daughter and does an okay job. But I use and prefer Linux for just about everything else. So when I started looking for alternatives in Linux for my daughter's usage, I found the selection quiet lacking in comparison. Futhermore, as I researched more on the Internet, I found posts from people asking the same questions several years back. It really looks like very little progress has been made. The same questions keep resurfacing. So I hope that the Kid's Linux web site becomes a repository for knowledge gained by the community.
If you check out the site, please do not be disappointed by the lack of content. I'm just getting started really. As time progresses and more members of the community get involved and make suggestions, I think that we will have a nice little site.
Tell your kids the damn truth.
How Microsoft is conducting buisness, how bad Microsoft's products are, why you are moving to Linux.
If you are even slightly able to educate children, you could also take advantage of that to teach them some basics in computers. Stuff about how computers work, what is an operating system, what it does... I'm SURE your kids will listen, if you know how to tell them in a fun way. Add exemples; show concrete exemples. Make them do experiences (have them try programming. Even if it's only Basic, they'll have fun doing little games and animations).
My father and my brother taught computers to me from as early as 5 (maybe it was on DOS and Windows, but imagine how I would be now if it was with Linux or *BSD); I'm now 16 and I regularly read Slashdot and post comments. I'm very computers litterate and I program Scheme and Java (learning C).
You use linux; Keep them on winblows until they start wondering why your com is different. then wean them off windows to linux. In the modern workl, being used to wiindows is essential. Plus they'll be screwed at school if they're winsuck free.
It worked fine, nice coloured theme and all, but basically its still a little too hard and while the OOS educational software isnt bad, he ultimately wanted to run "Thomas the Tank Engine"
I ended up just getting a 266Mhz grape coloured iMac really cheaply and it kinda goes with the rest of his room in terms of looks.
He can start the thing up, run his games and then turn it off all by himself. I wouldnt have that confidence with Windows or Linux
I discovered Linux when I was eleven. I have been using it since, execpt for gaming where I either use XP or 2000. All servers in my house run Debian 3.0 or FreeBSD 4, and my main computer runs Mandrake 9.0. The nice thing is my computer is MY computer, I can try any OS I want to try, although I have found none that compete with any Linux.
My 11yr old son has never used Windoze at home (I stopped using M$ products
back in the era of Win 3.0.)
Executive Summary:
* CD-ROM Games - forget it. There are home-grown games
but they are rarely of commercial quality. WINE doesn't
do DirectX - so unless you are prepared to pay for WINE-X
you can't play Windoze games - period. Even Wine-X won't
play more than a handful of Windoze games well.
* Online Games/Flash/Shockwave - no problem. Use Mozilla.
* For *everything* else - Linux is better than Windoze..and
it happens to be free.
Conclusion:
Buy them a GameCube for games - keep the PC for serious
stuff. I don't think that's a bad idea anyway - while they
are doing homework, there is no temptation to take time out
for a game - and that's "A Good Thing".
www.sjbaker.org
... that she forced her kid to play games on a linux box.
Live web cams
Your best bet is to pay some money. Get transgaming winex and get the codeweavers stuff. That way you can still use shockwave. Flash has been ported, but i haven't seen a sockwave one. Java is simply a pain :)
"I'm rebooting this machine probably four and five times a week"
Wow. I reboot 2-3 times a day. Course I'm using Win 98.
how come everytime some one asks a question on slashdot, that I my self am interested in, every one post off topic or joins massive threads on why the first post is wrong, stupid, or offtopic.... and then morons like *YOU* MISS THE POINT ALL TOGETHER..... I dont have time to search through this stupidity to find out what linux based games and other FREE YET FUN things are out there for kids.... I AM TIRED OF SLASHDOT AND THE USELESS RATING SYSTEM.
It's amazing that someone here hasn't mentioned Tux Reports - Where Penguins Fly. Two of the authors of the GNU/Linux reviews are under 12 years old ! They are the ones that were let into LWE as reporters ...
http://www.tuxreports.com
Besides, I love the tag line. Does anyone remember Tux actually flying at a Comdex show in the late 90's???
There's nothing to be afraid of. Our family does not have a copy of Windows running anywhere in the house.
We have a Linksys cable/firewall/wireless access point box, and three machines (or so) with ethernet adapters, all running Debian GNU/Linux.
The server is an old Celeron machine with 256 megs of RAM and an 80 gig drive, and a small old monitor that stays off most of the time. It has a big shared area on its disk, made available to all machines on the network via NFS, for "homework" and personal folders for all members of the family, as well as shared music and photo subdirectories. The server also runs a printer that's shared over the network via CUPS. The server runs Debian "stable" and has been, well, ultra stable.
Each of the workstations mount the server's NFS under a local directory called "server", and treats it as if it were the workstation's own local directory. The word processing software on each workstation (OpenOffice) is set up to point to the appropriate subdir on the server as its default directory. So, everyone's work files reside on the server, where they can be taken care of and backed up.
The workstations are more powerful Athlon and Duron machines, and run the Debian "testing" and "unstable" variants ("unstable" is in fact reasonably stable).
This system does not have all the latest games, but it has a lot of entertaining stuff (esp. from the Debian Jr. project), and it is more than adequate to handle all school-level computing tasks.
Snazzier peripherals like a scanner, CD Writer and Digital Camera are attached to the workstations.
You can click here to see our setup.
have you thought of one of the new transition type distros like lindows or lycoris or whatever the other ones are now? i've been wanting to try lycoris for a while now.
please me, have no regrets.
up2date.
Just like apt-get... but for Red Hat. That and rpmfind.net are about all you need to know as far as installing stuff for Red Hat goes.
First off, ANY computer a kid uses is going to need to be rebooted from time to time. Kids break software, it's what they do.
Second, the fact is that windows is easier to use than linux. And it's most likely the operating system (or something decended from it) your kids will be using when they hit the workforce. And either it or Mac is the operating system they are using in school.
Create a dual boot system and let THEM decide what they want to use. Let them decide what they want to use. Their favorite operating system is their choice, not yours.
Subjecting your kids to an operating system that has, at best, a 3.2% desktop market share is child abuse.
I am an up and coming five-month-old who was introduced to a Mandrake 8 distro running on a custom-built P4 as soon as my eyes opened.
.tar compression format (for the fun of it.)
I began programming Ruby and quickly moved to Fortran. At two and a half months I picked up a copy of Perl in a Nutshell and have been a convert ever since.
Three months found me teething and coding my own C++ compiler while four months had me reverse-engineering the
By this point I was working on growing a full head of hair as well as a "gentoo" distribution that I had installed myself from the command line, and I had ditched X altogether.
Right now (my six month birthday is coming up in a couple of days) I'm coding my own distro (but I've decided to start from scratch and ditch the Kernel, though it's served me well...) and am quite happy about the computing choices my parents made for me. I think your children will also be grateful and better off for any introduction to the world of technology - be it Linux, Windows, X-box, or those great little read-aloud Disney books where you push the buttons and hear the little sound-clips.
------
"Will the highways on the Internet become more few?" --George W. Bush, in Jan. 2000
90% of the random "Windows-caused" lockups I have experienced in my extensive experience have been due to flaky hardware. ESPECIALLY bad memory!!!
:)
Windows 9x and especially NT/2000/XP tax memory extensively. Usually much more than an equivalent out-of-the box Linux install. In fact the only thing that taxes RAM more (in my experience) is actually attempting to compile something.
I have seen "perfectly" good machines test out fine with testing packages costing thousands of dollars. I have seen RAM test out perfectly fine under stress testing with hardware based testers. I have then seen these SAME sticks of RAM fail repeatedly when compiling the Linux kernel. If these bad pieces of RAM found their way into a Windows machine the end user would more than likely be in store for a lot of random lockups.
Also, don't forget that your CPU and motherboard also contain smaller amounts of RAM!
My point is if you REALLY want to test a machine try to install Linux on it and compile the kernel a few times in a row.
Interestingly enough you usually won't run into these sporadic memory issues with your out-of-the-box Linux binary install simply because you aren't taxing the CPU/memory enough to run into issues. Windows taxes your hardware much more than most desktop/SOHO Linux installations ever will.
And as some other people have posted; don't be so fast to blame Windows for your continual lockups. I have quite a few Windows servers with uptime rivaling my Linux boxes. And for everyone who thinks I am a troll; I am a member of the RedHat Linux Beta Team with extensive Linux coding and sysadmin experience. Windows is nothing more than a tool; if you choose not to use it then that is your choice. But don't blame the tool for your ineptness at using it properly. The same goes for the Unix bashers out there!
I'm sorry, but my advice is to keep Windows XP. Asking your kids to use Linux is like a father, who's a HAM radio operator, trying to get his kids to use the radio instead of the telephone. Windows XP is a telephone and you just have to use them some times. If they develop an interest in computers or programming, then you can show them Linux. If some program is available *only* on Linux, then show it to them.
My kids' computers are Windows XP but they are set up to dual-boot to Linux.
To save money, use your Windows XP (and the games and the hardware) for a long time and upgrade later rather than sooner.
Windows or Linux (as they are today) probably won't be that relevant to what the kids will use in the future, anyway.
I have a home network with a Win2000 machine, iMac and a Linux box (Redhat) on it. I have introduced my daughter to all of them, showing her how to start up (particularly relevent with Linux), how to find the best game, and then have left her to solve the rest.
She now has a cross platform competancy and an appreciation of the different strengths and weaknesses of the three OS's.
She prefers the Win2000 machine for all the reasons cited here, but I do find her exploring the other two, especially the Linux box, as the challenge to do things is greater. She is part of the Nintendo generation - tapping into that is all you need to get your child interested in Linux.
....Be careful of dueling with dragons - you are crunchy and taste good with tomato sauce....
First off, I don't see why you don't have multiple computers. If you don't have space for multiple computers then disregard this post. My house has a mix of Mac's, PC's, Apple II's and a C64. You see, way before I had kids, I bought my first Apple. I still have all that software and have elected to maintain my purchase of that software by keeping a working Apple, XT, and C64. My purchased software (games) accross all platforms is about 400(+- 10) titles.
I have 3 kids. They range between the ages of 5 and 13. Not only do they have multiple computers to play with, but they also have 3 Nintendo game systems to play. Between the Nintendo, Computer, TV, and Homework, they spend about 2/3 of thier time with each. The other 1/3 is spent outdoors/School activities.
I don't limit what the kids play on the computer. What I have found is that the kids play whatever has the "cool" factor for the month. Under Linux they play Heroes, LBreakout, and Pingus. Under Windows they play Harry Potter, Roller Coaster Tycoon, etc. They still like the games played under the Apple/C64, Frogger, Defender, Pacman, Carmen San Diego, etc. All insist on playing Zany Golf for the IIgs. The older son plays Starcraft and Warcraft under WINE (he likes the fact that he can cheat and play within the same desktop).
As far as online games, the kids like cartoon.network and disney.com. They use netscape 4.7x (win/linux) with the latest plugins (I'm sorry, but I can't get mozilla to work with the lastest plugins and be fast). They know they can't change web sites without parent consent (access is monitored at firewall).
We tried WinXP and your right, it doesn't play half of the kids titles. I took it back for a refund and reinstalled Win98SE. As far as win 3.1 titles (Lion King, Lenny Music Tunes) and DOS Games (MK3, Wing Commander, Duke2-3, etc). Dual boot Win98/Linux meets all my domestic needs.
Don't force your family to Linux, just be open to their needs. Linux is not a cure all. Just a way to do things different.
Enjoy,
It's just the normal noises in here.
HA HA HA your kids are playing games!?? My 2 year old daughter posts a new debian security alert almost every other week now. You guys are so lame. My six year old son has made a mathematical formula proving that humans are nothing more than bald monkeys who are amazed by a glowing screen. you guys suck
Redhat 8.0 (almost all distributions have some sort of automount daemon available) has an automount daemon. As soon as you insert a CD, it will be automounted (if there is autorun it will be executed, if it is an audio CD, a music player will run, a dvd player, etc...). An icon of the device will also appear. I recommend you download Redhat 8.0 for your children (it is very easy to use, I got my younger brother to use Linux productively quite easily). Otherwise, just configure the automount daemon to work well with your distribution. Adding a type to deal with a Windows autorun CD is not hard (see WineX).
OEONE
I think you might want to try OEONE as an
alternate desktop environment
- K12 Linux
- Linux For Kids
- Debian Jr
Good luck.I don't know how many actual parents have posted to these threads, because everyone appears to be overlooking the greatest benefit of running Linux in a family machine: it puts parents in the driver's seat. If your kids don't do their homework or forget their chores, you can suspend their accounts until they straighten out.
Root is the patriarch (or matriarch, as the case may be.) And believe me, you need all the leverage you can get, if you have normally obstreporous kids.
Since you seem want your kids to have a _good_ computer experience (you seem to think Windows doesn't provide it?) maybe you should let them choose for themselves...
Get another computer (doesn't need to be a new, expensive one because those games don't need one) and install Linux/Wine on it and then let your kids decide what they would rather use.
I say this because while Windows might not be the perfect OS for a child, it's definitely made with ease of use in mind (which sometimes means other functionality suffers). Of course your kids will learn to use the unix prompt and window system (i know this because a lot people my age learnt how to use DOS as kids in the 80's), but they might end up knowing more about the OS than they actually need to, instead of learning all the other stuff there is to do on a computer (with any OS).
Hi. My kids (age 4 1/2 and 7) use both operating systems: Windows2000 for CD-Games and Debian Linux for everything else.
They even enjoy the simple linux-Games (cuyo, frozen bubbles) mores as they can play against each other.
I tried to put up Wine, Crossover in order to switch completely to Linux - alas it is not worth the hassle. Anyway they are only allowed to play 1 hour every second day and they have to choose first what they want to do.
Great games they like:
The "putt-putt"(?) series from Infogrames, www.bobthebuilder.com, www.blindekuh.de and mostly german game sites.
Hope this helps.
Klaus
I have the same problem - I am running Linux on my PC most of the time, but for the kids, I have to boot ahem, good old Win98 - there are simply no good game or kid CDs that would run well under Linux (ah well there are nearly no game CDs for grownups either). Unfortunately the selection of Linux paint or typing programs for kids is also fairly limited - my daughters are a bit too young to use gimp, so they use varying free painting programs under Win98 together with a graphics tablet. Ah well - I guess it will be some time until I can finally delete that Win98 partition :/
If you don't want your kids to do it - don't do it yourself!
My daughter won't see Windows of me using it either.
I use Linux all the way through and I won't have no steenkin doze on my boxes.
She'll get a KDE 3 Box with a nifty KDE 3 Liquid theme in screeching pink when she's old enough for a box.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
3 kids?
That means he's had sex at least 3 times!
Wow...
What part of "a well regulated militia" do you not understand?
Linux for kids is really OK in my book.
... it is ok if your native language is english/american or hispanic I guess.
The problem is
How language-hungup are all the apps developed for kids? I know I could contribute to a project by providing a Dutch translation. Any other takers?
Free ?! Does that mean I can't get a Discount ?!
This message was
They do not always follow the rest of the herd, teach them to question, to understand (especially that different isn't necessarily bad). This way they will make their own decisions, not just about an OS but about Life. They will be better for it, and the world will be a better place (with computers full of penguins?!).
I have 2 kids (4 and 2), and we have a dual boot Linux/windows system. I nearly always use Linux - the only exception is some games (MystIII just does not work in Linux, at least for me). My wife is learning linux - she is becoming annoyed with windows, as it keeps giving her the "Blue Screen Of Death". That annoys the kids too, as she nearly always boots to windows for them (her comfort zone, change is scary). My Daughter (4) like the computer, and will ask to check web sites, or play a game. She has now also started to ask to use Linux - she has no pre-conceptions of "good" or "bad" OS, all she wants is something that will do what she wants without the "Blue Screen of Death". I am happy that she has chosen Linux, and has done so based on her own experience.
At 2, my little boy does not care what the OS is -as long as he can click the train/animal/TV character and it does something he is happy. the "BSOD" upsets him, he thinks he has broken it.
I try to keep them active with books, physical exercise, playing for fun, using her imagination, etc - the computer is another thing to use to play and educate.
Let kids play, don't force your beliefs on them, give them time to decide for themsevles (Sure, you can give advice, help them out, show them things). And respect their choices. As they grow, you can have debates about these things. Far better to be able to do this than rule with an iron fist - no-one likes a dictator.
You have mentioned abt what advantages the child would have, had he started exploring OS's at a very early age. Think about one more possibility as well.
Because, its not very easy to use and often shows up cryptic messages (for the kids), they might end up being linux-phobic. That will hamper their interest for learning linux in the future.
Just another possibility.
Mandrake is easy to install and if you have enough disk space you can keep your windows installation and be able to boot into it from the linux loader.
Since Linux isn't going away it won't hurt to learn about it as well as windows. I haven't tried Wine so I can,t say how well it would support windows games. Which is why I'd recommend keeping that old windows installation around.
your... pussy... hurts..?
The OS doesn't matter. You say that your kids want to play games, write homework or papers, perhaps do some communication on the Internet.
Give your children the computer of your choice that fits their needs. And make sure that they don't get sucked into "learning by interface", what I mean by this is that they learn to look INTO things and won't freak out if they use a different word processor sometime just because the menu is laid out differently.
It makes no sense to teach your children an OS. If they get interested in the guts of computers, they'll figure out OSes and such themselves, and you as a technically savvy person can assist them with their learning. But it does make sense to let them know that a computer can do a lot of different things, and the same thing in different ways, and that alternatives are always available. Let them know that they are not typing a letter "with the computer", but with Microsoft Word, and that there are other programs available. They will understand the concept of programs and operating systems after a while, will perhaps look into Linux and understand the real-world differences (price, origin, etc) of the products.
If they don't, who cares, because they have learned to adapt to different environments, know that a computer is an extremely flexible tool. They don't have to be computer experts.
When they have learned to be flexible, they won't ever be among those that are afraid of Linux just because it works different. Balancing the advantages and disadvantages of the many systems available, they will come to a conclusion of what system and programs to use. This may or may not be Linux. Doesn't matter.
When your children are intelligent, thinking, flexible persons that look behind things and don't take things for the be-all and end-all just because they don't know something else, you as a father have succeeded.
This coming from an 18 year old might be ridiculous, but I feel that it is a valid point of view.
What you really need is a reason for them to switch. If they want to switch they will accept many inconveniences, whereas if you force them they will hate GNU/Linux from the start.
So you should set-up a dual boot system and allow them to choose what they want to run. Then, you turn off your sense of compassion and install... xkobo(-deluxe) and every other addictive game you can find. The first shot is always free, but this time so will be the next one, and the next one, and the next...
And when they're running GNU/Linux anyway, because they need their daily gaming fix, they'll start using it for other stuff as well: why reboot when there's no reason?
P.S. You might want to rephrase this argument when presenting it to your wife.
P.P.S. I've got several friends who want to install GNU/Linux after playing xkobo at my place. }:-)
If there is hope, it lies in the trolls.
He wants to save the obscene amount of money one has to invest in the "Windows eXPerience" [tm].
To say stay with Windows and say nothing are one and the same thing, unless you are lonely and want to get some attention.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
... but you seem to imply there are some clicks more equal than others.
Now, entertain us: what are the unfathomable skillz required to use a Windows application that are so badly neglected if you (touch wood, grasp) use only ungatesian. unamerican computers?
As they say, the uneducated masses want to know.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Or ignorant.
We keep one W98 machine immaculate: no nonse, firewalled, antivirus, patches and still the TCP stack dies after left unattended.
reboot, reboot, reboot.
You want to talk stability? lets start with W2K, but to defend W98 is just laughable, look: ha,ha,ha.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
.... is that you are joking, and you know it.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I understand the point. I just don't feel kids should be burdened with more than they already are. They have so much to deal with at school , socially... and at home. Why add on daily discussions about how 'they need to learn to hate bill gates' and use linux. I never said I supported windows ... I just think open source in general tends to be less capitalistic.
(I don't believe all knowledge should be free. I don't think anything should be free.)
My response was directed more towards those people who responded that they deny internet access to their children from windows pc and make them use linux. Or doing things like "you can't play that game unless you learn howto set it up on linux first." If anything that will just make their kids resent using linux.
Ultimately the way I feel is that the person should want to use linux or be interested in it instead of trying to force them. When they are ready they will come around.
I'll make you a deal. You pray to God for help and I'll stop the moment he shows up.
Generally I use windows and linux.. sometimes MacOS and don't consider any of them better over the other. They are all good. ...
... and instead finds a copy of slackware.
... "i saw it in the store... I knew it was just for you." ...
What I'm starting to hate are the open source fanboi's who have become more like bible-pusher lost God and found Linus linux users who feel the horrid need to preach about linux 24/7 to everyone they meet.
Linux is not the be all end all of life.
You know you've gone to far when
1.) your kid opens up his birthday present expecting to find radioactive ion man super control addon
reminds me of the husband who buys his wife a bowling ball
I'll make you a deal. You pray to God for help and I'll stop the moment he shows up.
Let me count: VM-Ware (not cheap), Win98, XP.
And he is saving money here how?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
...go to Debian Jr. Project
he is not moving for the sake of it. Your comprehension skillz are not sharp. HE wants to save money, ged it? Money.
What should he settle for rebooting so often? I do not reboot my machine for weeks at the time. It is a valid point to try something better and from the stability point of view Linux beats W98 hands down.
Agreed about Wine. He should move to Linux and use the many places that tun properly with Linux.
Can you enlighten us and tell us, for our enterteinment, what cutting edge skillz will thes children lack in relation to children using Windows? And is it not remotely posible that in school they are going to actually be thougt those skillz?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Incidentally, these are all signs of bad programs for adults, too.
Which is exactly why I say "kid friendly" is a straw man. Designing a good interface for a kid really just means designing a good interface for a human, with the erroniously added requirement for cartoonish graphics.
children think VERY linearly
Regular conversations with my 2 year old daughter have convinced me otherwise. Linear thinking is learned behavior, and a little casual people watching at the local strip mall should be enough to convince you that not everyone learns it. Even something as simple as cause and effect is learned, and often has to be pointed out.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
"My real motivation to do this is to save money and to teach my children that sometimes the best isn't always the most expensive."
*Gasp*! It can't be! Humanity has finally realized this fact!!
If you have a bit of time to play around with WineX, (and don't mind shelling out a couple $'s to Transgamaing.) You will find that The Sims works really well, StarCraft is stable enough to play for long periods of time, and although I haven't tried nhl2002, I imagine if support isn't present, it will be soon for all of EA Sports' games... (all based on the same engine, when 1 works, they all will)
Just my $0.02
Submitted for your inspection: Lousy hand-eye coordination and I suck at math. Always have, probably always will. However, I'm musical. I've been composing now (standard notation using various software) for 11 years and I'm not too bad. I can play the guitar (as well as anyone with my poor motor skills can manage, anyway), and I have Grade VIII music theory. But I suck at math.
Counterargument: I'm good with languages, though, and I've always thought of music much more in terms of "grammar" and "syntax" than anything math-related. I have a bachelor's degree in English, a master's in rhetoric, and I'm aiming for a PhD.
RhetoricalQuestion helped me with algebra by telling me to think of variable definitions in terms of "connotation" and "denotation," so maybe I'll suck less at math now...
So, all things considered, is there really a correlation between math and music, or is it just another one of those cheesy intellect myths like that all truly "smart" people must be able to play chess well, or something?
I'm not a geek, I'm just a clever script.
And this is why there should be a minimum age limit on Slashdot. ANY hacker worth his salt knows tar is an bundler, not a compressor. Sheesh.
And seriously, moving from Ruby is just the new language of the moment, and Fortran is so, 1970s... As for perl, I'll have to see it to believe it. My experience is that programmers less than a year old can't properly grok doing multidimensional array syntax where one dimension is a hash, not to mention some of the cruftier reference use.
Punk.
I don't think you understand what linear thought is -- or rather more specifically and less cruelly, what I meant by it.
Linear thought is when you chain sequences subjects together in a way that makes sense TO YOU. Non linear though is when you escape sequences of subjects and can return to the original thought.
Example:
Put the blue can inside the red box. Seems linear eh? It's not, really. It's something like this:
Put
the
blue
can
inside
the
red
Box.
with each tab indicating a new piece of information that must be processed in the child's brain.
You have to sort of hold on to the subject/object of the previous clause to understand the complete sentence. Children, especially young children, get easily lost returning to the previous subject. Listen when they talk...they may start talking about the can, bring up the fact that it is red, and then begin a new topic about other red things. It is not unlinear...it makes sense, when traversing, to continue to "free associate" subjects that are similar. This is because language and logic are stored in the brain similar to the way string values are stored in a good hash table. "Red" may be closer to "firetruck" then it is to "inside," and so it's easier to come up with a new subject.
It seem crazy to you in the same way a schizophrenic's clang associations make little sense to the rest of us...we don't understand things in that order because it is much harder to get anything done when you're free associating everywhere.
"Kid friendly" isn't just designing an interface for "humans." Children haven't developed as complete a set of signs (uh oh, look out, here comes the Pseudo Chomsky) and so it's important to keep within the standard set of language for children, or at least not to introduce too many new terms. Kids can learn the terms "File", "Print" or "Document" pretty easily, as well as the location of the functions they need. What they can't do is intuit what might be meant by "paragraph formatting" and so forth. All kids need to do is double space shit...why not give them a "Double Space" option, and leave the paragraph formatting for a "more advanced than I need, and I'm a graduate student" version.
(Yes, technically I need the drop indent for bibliographies, but I can use the tab key if I REALLY have to. I do everything in a proportional font anyway.)
Hey freaks: now you're ju
Oh, I had two other problems with this post I wanted to mention.
First: no 2 year old understands the VALUE of money, even though she may understand its use or its importance. Money isn't about buying goods, it's about the tenuous trade off between pleasure, necesity and labor. A 2 year old understands only pleasure...she's never needed anything because you no doubt supply it well before the necesity is dire. She doesn't understand labor because at that age even chores are treated as games -- "lets help mommy do the dishes," etc. You, however, bust your ass to make sure she's got food and a stable roof and put up with a bunch of shit, sacrificing your own pleasure at times for stability and security. That 5 bucks means a lot more to you than just a couple minutes worked...it stands between you and hardship. If you've got a good savings plan, it means less than if you're paycheck to paycheck...and it's the same with your daughter. She's got the best savings plan and is doing the least to gain the most then she'll ever have in her life. What's five dollars when a DOLL can be had?
This is the real money trade off between corporate and open source software. Do you, as a user, get $100-200 worth of utility out of using Windows rather than Linux/BSD? I feel I do...shit, I've paid more money to Apple for upgrades than I've paid to MS for anything, and I don't feel cheated at all. At the same time, if I was a parent, fighting for hours with an MS OS that wouldn't run software my kids wanted while they nagged my ear off, I wouldn't be so hot to dump any money into their lap. It seems foolish to pay for a hard time.
The other thing. "Any kid that has been grounded knows about freedom." No -- any kid that has been grounded knows about imprisonment. It's not the same freedom Stallman rants about. Free as in beer and free as in speech are different from free as in not bound. It's very very difficult to teach anybody this kind of freedom, i'd say many of our leaders don't understand it, either. If they did, we'd see a much bigger libertarian party presence in this country. It's the difference between "If you don't love America, leave," a foolish phrase which has always reminded me of the jews fleeing Germany, and "If you don't love America, change it, because you have the right and ability to do so."
Hey freaks: now you're ju
Note: Slashdot is currently having problems letting my ISP's registration requests go through, as well as some posts. (Is anyone else on Comcast using a router and firewalls having this problem?)
:: blushes :: fansites for The Legend of Zelda and Pokemon.
/dev/null.
Half of the users above take into account their child hood computing experiences being the average or "norm." Ofcourse, anyone with the interlect of even a seven year old should be able to comprehend "everyone is different." Thirteen year old girls don't know the difference between Mac and Windows in some case, however, they do know how to chat, use the internet and check their E-mail. Is this incompetance? No, not by any means in my opinion. They're using the computer for the sole purpose of communication, or at a lower level to complete task(s). These task(s) vary and so do the skill levels required. To put a one size fits all logo on computing is crazy talk. Regarding three year olds, I'd begin computing with playing with a mouse and programming a custom application with the pictures of friends and relatives as a memory game which teaches "things represented on the screen are real, there's a picture of mommy and aunte wanda!" Once again, that is opinion.
Regarding my childhood: My parents bought me electronic toys... B I G mistake on their wallets part. I constantly threw them acrossed the room smashed them and crushed them... Why? At the age I was too young to manuever a screw driver I already wanted to know how they worked! At around 6-9 I was driving my mother insane with my little useless "inventions." When we finally got our first comptuter in 1997 I was hooked, and from here on is the timeline of no ordinary child, but what I imagine is far from "extraordinary" status.
1997:
* Mastered the Windows Operating System
1998:
* Trashed 2-5 computers (33mhz x 3, 25mhz x 1, 90mhz x1) to learn the internals of AT/ATX cases
* Learned HTML and started on Perl while creating and working at
1999:
* Mastered HTML, Perl and Visual Basic
* First exposure to "unix" style socket programming
2000:
* Furthered knowledge of web design and such, second attempt at C++
* Loaded FreeBSD on a 233mhz built from scratch from donated parts
2001:
* Learned PHP and MySQL
* Began coding effecient and advanced code with high levels of understanding
* Bought "lots" of and or bulk computer hardware and either bundled or restored it, and made $2,000 on eBay in four months during school with startup money of just $70.
* Educated myself in the internals of Cannon and IBM Laptops
2002:
* I now know: HTML, Perl, Visual Basic, PHP, Java*, C*
* Slackware 8.1 + VMWare now serve as my main operating system
* I was a server administrator for three months on my own dedicated server I was renting from serverbeach.com$, which was cruely shutdown due to a billing error when Commerce Bank lost my account for the second time%.
* Not fluent in, I have either read books or putz around in the source but have not yet "wet my feet" or code any productive applications as of yet.
$ They shutdown my server when there was a billing error due to a lost account (see below). When it was straightened out, they blamed the crash on PLESK, so I said "I'd like a free change to ENSIM if this will insure the reliability of my server." They then installed Ensim and it crashed the first day, and they then directed me to a pay per incident Ensim service. For three months of payments in increments of $119 I lost $357 and was unable to continue my low cost hosting service or my eBay operations. As of now I am in school and broke with a Thinkpad who just needs $50 of parts and some TLC.
% Commerce Bank allowed my father to be the custodian on a checking account which bared my name as well. When this account was sent to the FDIC after the checks, check book, and Visa were issued it was flagged, and shut down. Minors in the state of Pennsylvania may not have checking accounts, putting too much faith in the bank and not enough in our insincts of minors holding checking accounts I had to start over with a new account. This new account was then LOST with a balance of $220 for a server payment. This resulted in my server being shutdown, blah blah blah.
I hope this was entertaining, but to say the least if the kid has the will, and a way
[if I didn't make it obvious, I will come right out and say out and say I would be classified as 'lower-middle class" and by no means was given something for nothing by my parents]
it can be done. Starting from grandma's check for $50 dollars, and a savings account hooked up to a Paypal account and verification using Mommy's credit card ***with permision***. They could be doing business on eBay under the supervision / in conjunction with a parent or guardian.
With a library card or an internet connection a child can begin programming. With a $15 dollar obsolete computer you can teach your child about the inner workings and basics of components etc. It all can make more of a difference then you know, however Linux vrs Windows on a three year old? The only thing that may result in a child reaching for the Rubber Tux over the Rubber Ducks.
Take this for what it is, the above is a true story missing so many steps and details it is laughable. I left out the medical issues I had to overcome at a young age, for the sole reason for everyone's problem somebody else has one more severe.
Encourage your child and your self to stay strong and go for your goals in whatever you do!
PARENTS PLEASE REMEMBER THE FOCUS IS 1) SCHOOL, 2) COMPUTER AND THAT IF GRADES ARE MANTAINED NOT TO CLIP A CHILDS WINGS. THE INTERNET IS A DANGEROUS PLACE AND I ADMIT BEING EXPOSED TO THINGS WAY TO EARLY AND MUST STRESS AUTOMATED OR OLD FASHIONED SUPER VISION!!!
I spend 6-12 hours on the computer a day, they call me "screens", this was first punished, frowned upon and is now accepted that it is both a job, for my education and entertainment and an exceptable replacement for just about any device.
Thanks,
Jeff "Jephree" Mealo
P.S. If any other child programmers are out their drop me a line or hit me up on aim at Xx Jeph M xX. If anyone has comments, or questions be my guest.
P.S.S. Complaints or flames can be send to