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Segway Banned In San Francisco
bhsurfer writes "The city of San Francisco has banned the Segway [CNN.com] from it's sidewalks before they've even arrived. Apparently Santa Cruz, Oakland and San Mateo are considering a ban as well. What a bunch of spoilsports...or are they? Any thoughts on this?" According to the article, hiring high-powered lobbyists may have backfired. but the city claims safety concerns are behind the decision.
before they have any testing or real user experience on which to base their decisions.
I've never lived in any of the cities in question, but I know in Honolulu that tourists can rent mopeds, and they drive them on sidewalks everywhere. I would much rather see them on Segways. It might even keep them out of the roads, too.
San Francisco is very hilly. No doubt they anticipated old ladies being run down by out-of-control Segwii and decided to knit the problem in the butt.
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
With a top speed approaching 40mph (as reported on CNN this morning) those contraptions are definately NOT suitable for sidewalks and should be licensed as any other motorized transport.
IMHO
Segway, cool toy, but I just don't see what I would do with it. I can already go on my skateboard pretty damn fast. If I need to go faster I have a bike. If faster than that, my truck. Otherwise I'm walking. I don't get where it fits in, other than some lazy asses and maybe a heavy duty one for delivering mail along the boardwalk.
I'm not even sure that my kid thinks they're cool. I'll ask when I get home.
Otherwise they are full of bullshit. One of the reasons they gave for banning it was that it weighs 70 pounds and goes 12 mph, meaning the device could cause injury to a pedestrian.
Wasn't there talk of having the postal service ride segways? So what, will they just ban the postal service on san fran, make everybody e-mail?
(I wouldn't mind.)
Are they going to ban skateboards, roller blades, and inline electric scooters as well? Seaways are supposed to be safer then these things.
Bleh, fucking lame ass government stifling innovation because of imagined phantoms. Lets keep things exactly the way they are, and then we don't have to worry about the unknown, nothing to fear (except for car crashes...)
I hate this preemptive rulemaking bullshit. If something causes a problem out of proportion to it's benefit then ban it. Certainly they shouldn't be banned until they have been shown to be dangerous!
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
It seems like if you pay for lobbyists you better had made campaign contributions first!!! How fucked up is that?
I read the article earlier today, and a previous one about their success lobbying "blitz." They spent like $100,000 ($1 million). The "high-powered lobbyist comment" seems little more than a self-serving, completely false pat on the back.
You don't wan't to be going down the hill out of control and "smash".
I guess if they allowed the Segway on the sidewalk, they might have to reconsider allowing skateboards. Heaven forbid they allow skateboards on the sidewalks. (this is my poor effort at sarcasm, please excuse)
The article mainly states that segways on crowded streets going three times the speed of a pedestrian are probably dangerous. If you have been to SF then you would be worried about some overweight sysadmin putting up California street on one of these as I could only imagine and out of control segway going down that..
anime+manga together at last.. in real time.
A quick search on Google News reveals a Register article stating that the city council of San Francisco voted last month to ban the Segway.
How far are we into January, again?
And San Francisco already has a booming bike population, AFAIK (currently dwindling, from what I hear), so it's not too much of a big deal for most of its citizens. Also keep in mind that many other states/cities actually support or allow Segways on their streets.
Amusingly enough, TechTV, the cable channel that often reviews new gadgets, is based in San Francisco. Guess they'll have to review the Segway in some studio.
Letting people drive 30MPH on the sidewalk is ridiculous! If it's a vehicle, it should be in the road, not on the sidewalk -- like bicycles are. "Entirely new technology" my ass.
Why spend so much on a Segway when a bicycle is cheaper and just as effective? In fact, Americans should be riding bikes as the general populace is over-weight anyhow.
And the added-bonus is that the bicycle doesn't polute either/
See Subj:
Actually the city is right. Vehicles like the segway belong in the bicycle lane. They have no place on the sidewalk.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
Skateboarding is not a crime ....
BUT IT SHOULD BE!
I know many cities, small and large, ban the ridding of bicycles on the sidewalks. The reasoning behind this decision is often becuase it is hard to stop a bicycle and there is a safty risk riding one when people are comming out of stores.
I don't know if I agree with many of these bans (I like a bike a lot and sometimes you need to ride on the sidewalk) but there is some logic behind this decision. I think the idea of banning anything electric powered (becides wheelchairs, etc) on the sidewalk might not be a bad idea so long as room is available on the steet. I would hate to have to get hit when I was walking to a store becuase someone wanting to ride their segway at 12mph. (That would still hurt a lot if it hit you.)
Yes, they are neat and an engineering marvel. But damn it, there are more of us 'poorer' bi-peds who actually need the sidewalks.
Maybe if there were a seg-lane like a bike lane on the road, then great. But those things are just too damn bulky to allow for both walkers and segway enthusiasts share the sidewalk.
I am glad to see a city do this. I hope Boston follows suit. There are just too many pedestrians walking around in our crowded cities for these things.
Just my thoughts.
Try riding a skateboard or bike on the sidewalk and see what happens.
I've been run over/almost run over by more bicycles than I can count. I'm sure the granola crowd in SF loves the bicycle. These are safer than bikes because there is a maximum speed limit. for Segways.
Seems that the issue here at that the lobbyists forgot the golden rule of the campaign contributions. Bribery is legal. Use it.
In my town, motorized scooters and motorized anythings are banned on sidewalks and paths, no matter how slow they go. Even a motorized skateboard gets you a shaken finger from the local cop. Segway already falls into the banned category where I live.
Like Kamen said, they need to design cities around the thing. It doesn't fit the current model.
The first (in fact only) time I've ever seen a Segway was on the streets of San Francisco. I saw a Postal employee riding down the sidewalk with his USPS-branded saddlebags on the sides. I wonder if they have had bad experiences with Segway on their streets...
I thought one of the main thing about Segway is that it was supposed to be sooooo intuitive like walking? what's up with the multi-hour training?
besides that - does multi-hour mean 2 hours? or 5 hours? Worse yet - Non of the "mandated this many hours courses" I have ever attended lasted for the specific number of hourse.
Take, for example, in NY before you get a license you need a 5 hour (or somesuch) course. Not that I am complaining (that much) but the course ended after about three at a "DMV approved course center." - I say this because if the Segway was not as intuitive as they gloat, and a lenghty safty course was really necessary, then I'd fear of walking from now on - While bad drivers for the most part run into other cars, bad segway charioteers will mostly run into pedestrians.
My life in the land of the rising sun.
I dunno about SF, but in my city it's illegal to ride a bicycle on the sidewalk. That's for safety reasons too; a pedestrian who happens to step in your way is gonna get hurt if your reflexes aren't fast enough. Knocking someone down with a Segway is even easier than with a bike.
AFAIC, it's perfectly reasonable to treat Segways like any other kind of two-wheeled motorized scooter. Make 'em travel in the street.
Well, there is a bit of good news. I fight traffic on my bike daily, and it is a nightmare. We have maybe 5 km of bike lanes in the City of Toronto, and some of them do not intersect. Plus, sticking them on the busiest, nasties streets (Chinatown = 1 streetcar lane, one car lane, one shared care lane with bike. AHHHHHHHH!!!!!) BUT, I NEVER ride the sidewalk unless I am hopping the curb to get to the bike lockup. I purposefully keep the pedestrians far away from my faster moving wheels. There is no reason the Segway should have access to the sidewalk. They are heavy, and they move quickly. More bike lanes would be the better solution overall.
Given how bad and dangerous some drivers are, prohibiting motor vehicles on sidewalks seems like a fine thing to do. Are people really going to be that much safer and more attentive drivers on a segway than in a car?
Think of it this way: in ten years time, what will have more fatalities per machine on the road, the Segway or the car?
Judging from everything I've read about the Segway, it'll be the car, of course. So why don't they ban cars in San Francisco, too? Because use of cars is too widespread, and the public would be outraged if you tried to take them away.
If the Segway's all the hype suggests, then maybe in years hence the new machine will become as entrenched in daily life as the car (...assuming San Fran doesn't become a national trendsetter on the issue, and kill the Segway before it's given a chance). Until then you can expect this sort of thing. Just imagine how many people are going to worry about the first supersonic turbo-boostered flying rocket cars, you know?
youre not supposed to ride bikes on sidewalks! youre supposed to ride them in the street!
as for the segway, i think they should wait for it to be a problem before wasting their time banning it....i mean, how many of these things did they anticipate being on the sidewalks anyway?
Gentlemen...BEHOLD!
-Dr. Weird
I believe that just about any city prohibits bikes on the sidewalk. Move along now.
Sidewalks (ok, I can speak USA) are for walking. As a bicycle rider I sometimes ride there if the road is untenable. People wander about a lot. They even dart from left to right in a random fashion. This is their right, if you ask me. And I go to great lengths to make sure I avoid them - they have the rights, not me. A Segway occupies much the same area as a bicycle (it's a bit shorter) but I do not believe it would be as good at avoiding people (it can't lean, though it turns very well). I agree with San Francisco. Keep the sidewalks free for pedestrians - SF is one of the few cities where people actually still walk - let's not threaten their sanctuary!
"Cats like plain crisps"
Riding bikes on the sidewalk is already illegal. Of course, everyone ignores that. Presumably they would ignore the Segway ban as well.
How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
I live in Los Angeles, and I was walking down Westwood Blvd. today and I saw a guy fly by on one. It went pretty damned fast, and looked really cool. It was the first time I had seen a Segway in reality.
It'll be a shame if no one can play with cool toys like this because hippys like the San Francisco government ban them.
..."Segway racing" video game for the XBOX.
Isn't that the same potential energy as a 280 pound pedestrian going 3 mph?
I say we ban fat peds.
Bicycles are already illegal on the sidewalk in California. A few exceptions exist (for young children, certain unsafe streets where bicycle traffic is clearly posted to be rerouted to sidewalk...)
whatever is - the music is
Critics say the Segway is a safety hazard on sidewalks because it weighs 69 pounds and travels at up to 12.5 mph
In my mind Segway's are not a safety hazard however we are talking about a state where tort laws are out of control. The city probably wants to avoid potential lawsuits from handicapped people, people that get run over, or others than crash on a sidewalk crack. Then there is the idea if Segway's are legal then is it the city's responsibility to maintain the quality of sidewalks? Anywho - I do not agree with the law that bans Segway's but I can see why it exists.
I wonder if you can have a decent subwoofer attached to Segway? :-)
Bicycles can't be on the sidewalks, why should segways be an exceptions. It's like a bicycle for lazy yuppies, and I'd pretty annoyed if one of those started whizzing near me on San Francisco streets and I'd have to dodge out of it's way. However, I would be equally annoyed to waste my weekend peeling the remains of a segway rider off my car's grill. I guess people will have to learn courtesy.
I don't know why but ever since they (San Francisco) have considered the Segway, I've gotten the impression that they are just being snotty. Have no good reason for it, just a gut reaction....
Remember, Amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic
Gorvernment officials banning something they don't understand? Shocker.
..There's a-dooin's a-transpirin'
We're talking about a state that has banned smoking in bars, fer crissake! Is anyone really surprised they're anal-retentive enough to ban a scooter? By the year 2010, everything will be illegal in California.
In canada, riding bikes on the sidewalk is only illegal for those under 17 (presumably, you don't want your kid getting wasted in the middle of the road).
The Segways should have to adhere to the same rules that bikes do. Bikes aren't allowed on the sidewalk either. They have to follow many of the laws that cars do. This includes riding in the street, going with the flow of traffic. So, why can't the Segways use the bike lane (or curb area) too?
GULP! I weigh 300 and could probably get up to 12mph, if you rolled a donut down a hill.
Guess I'm not going to SF any time soon.
Pulled from the article on CNN...
Critics say the Segway is a safety hazard on sidewalks because it weighs 69 pounds and travels at up to 12.5 mph
12mph is a little different from the 40mph you were throwing around.
Isn't that the same potential energy as a 280 pound pedestrian going 3 mph?
no, thats the same kinetic energy
Bikes are already banned on sidewalks in most downtown California cities. It's just fine, most cyclists in California would rather claim their right to ride in the road anyway.
Here's a better column about the whole debate from the San Francisco Chronicle. Basically, you have a bunch of uptight people over there, over a technology that hasn't even been used by the public yet. Fortunately, other cities, like Sacramento, are waiting to see whether there are any problems caused first, before acting.
"we aren't blocking traffic, we are traffic"
how long before segway riders organize take-back-the-sidewalks rides?
annmariabell.com
foldplay your photos won't know what hit them.
Obviously, they spent too much money on buying lobbyists, and not enough money buying legislators.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
i use a segway ht to go 7+ miles per day, i given up a car, saved over $10,000 and i've even lost 10lbs with my extra time that i have each day to do more things like (exercise) as opposed to sitting in traffic.
you can read about it here on my personal journal of owning a segway ht:
http://www.bookofseg.com
today i hit 100 miles, it took about 14 days of commuting to hit that, i didn't count other trips or previous commute trips so i could keep careful logs. for the first 100 miles or so, i personally saved about $582.00+ by using a segway ht, gave up a car and lost 10lbs. some things weren't quantifiable, results may vary for others.
http://www.bookofseg.com/100miles/
if you would like to chat about it, lemme know-- i'd love to!
cheers,
pt
I hope they banned bikes on their sidewalks too...
Actually, most major metropolitan cities do have laws against riding bikes on sidewalks.
I live in Philadelphia, and here it is indeed against the law to ride your bike on the sidewalk. In fact, I've seen several people get ticketed by the police for violating that law. If you go to center city Philadelphia, you will see bike lanes on the sides of the streets, next to the car lanes.
I would have no problem seeing Segways in bike lanes, but on the sidewalk? No way. They are equally as dangerous as bikes, if not more so (Segways don't have brakes).
I have.. and as strange as it sounds, it is NOT LIKE A VEHICLE. It is an extension of your body. If you hit any obstacle, it automatically stops, and if pressure continues it goes into reverse. It is WAY cool, and I would think a running individual would be more dangerous.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
You don't have to be Kreskin to see that.
They don't need "real user experience" because they know it's a bad idea from the start.
--
the strongest word is still the word "free"
In an area where one city has banned certain types of coffee beans, what'd you expect? They've been bending over for the minority for some time and it's only logical that they'll continue to do so.
/.ers, many of you helped elect these PC-nuts so don't act like you didn't see it coming. Get some reps with some common sense next time around!
I remember on 20/20 where they interviewed that Kamen guy they showed these pedestrian activist groups more or less claiming Kamen wanted to hurt old ladies. I was just screaming at the television "GET A LIFE!" to these nuts who all desperately needed either jobs or consciences (pedestrian activism???? I mean really, I don't want to get run over on the sidewalk either but that has to be the least important form of activism on the planet).
Bay Area
What this really means is that this law will be as ignored as the law about no bicycles on the sidewalk.
Bill Gates weighs 70 pounds and only goes 10 mph, and just look at all the damage he has caused!
I believe that is the military Segway... approved use by licensed personnel only.
Going 40 MPH on a sidewalk, in a Segway, would be like pedestrian pinball.
~D:
Just wonderin...
"New Hampshire-based Segway hired lobbying firms but has made no contributions to any public officials or candidates, said Matt Dailida, the company's director of state government affairs."
The problem apprarently was that Segway, LLC. failed to sufficiently bribe California city officials. Now they're going to have to dig deeper into those pockets to make up for the hurt feelings of city officials and overcome the entrenched pedestrian rights groups.
Title of your post:
From your post:
Do you honestly not know that the postal service is not run by individual cities? Please be more careful before you make these kind of accusations.
Forget the whales - save the babies.
'Embedded Linux on Segway: IT runs Linux!'... With a full SNMP MIB stack for monitoring your battery life from NetSaint (or whatever they're called now)... Maybe a webcam on the front and a copy of apache so that you can 'journal' your travels...
-Steve
My intelligence insults itself.
This will be great for advertising:
The Segway -- Banned in Boston!
Oh yeah. A bike lane, a segway lane, a pedestrian lane.. why stop there? WHY DON'T WE HAVE a fucking gay ass jew lane, because with you around we definitely need one. You're a fucking gay ass jew.
In California, officials in Santa Cruz, Oakland and San Mateo are still waiting on additional payoffs, and are wary after the much publicized "payoff check is in the mail" campaign failed in San Francisco.
One official is quoted as saying, "Bring cash."
-- Dan
The postal carriers are ditching it also (and others who were expected to use it, like policeman, security, etc). A quote from a postal worker in this week's Business Week was "You can't keep warm if you're not walking. You end up frozen like popsicle on a stick." Not a ringing endorsement for those states that are chilly 9 months of the year.
Yes, San Francisco banned this device. We have some very liberal board of supervisors running the city government here that defined the word 'bleeding heart.' Granted, some of the reasons for the ban aren't too bad, but some of them are very big brother.
The problem is that everyone is worried that the elderly walking down the sidewalk would be injured by one of these things.
There is also the whole pro-walking thing which lobbied pretty hard against it. They believe this device would cause everyone to get fat.
The price of the device didn't help its case either. Being a liberal city, a $4000 device is seen as a rich man's toy and rich men should be spending their money on social problems such as the homeless problem, not toys. This viewpoint is pretty common here unfortunately.
Bikes have been banned for quite some time on the sidewalk and for anyone who has biked down Market St. knows, it isn't particularly safe to be in the road either.
Rollerblades have also been banned on the sidewalk for some time. I've seen people try to go down the road on them and it isn't pretty given the general quality of the roads themselves.
Powered scooters are getting more and more common. They seem the safest of any one-person mode of transport simply because they can keep up with traffic. They are obviously banned on sidewalks, but have no real problems with the street from what I've seen.
Powered wheelchairs however have not been banned even though they seem to cause a whole lot more injury than anything else. That would hurt the disabled however, so it isn't even considered.
On the other hand, you have to realize that the sidewalks are litterly *packed* with people in many parts of the city. The segway would have caused problems simply because it is impossible to walk without bumping into someone.
The world is neither black nor white nor good nor evil, only many shades of CowboyNeal.
And while they're at it, they better slap a ban on public jogging, because a jogger can travel even faster than a Segway.
2.4 miles per hour. It's not just a good idea. It's the LAW.
Lets ban cars because the idiots that drive them can/may hit people.
In Gov. Gray Davis' California, it's not fucked up, it's the only way business gets done. Remember the Oracle Contract?
CA's state budget is $38B in the hole this year - we're jacking up income taxes and slashing transfers to municipialities, but we've got plenty of money for the Prison Guards, whose union was one of Davis' biggest contributors in the recent gubernatorial campaign.
Bottom line - the Segway d00dz will go out of business because they had a dumb business plan that relied on a gullible public swallowing promises that they were gonna change the world with a frickin' scooter. Their failure to recognize the basic need to bri^H^H^Hbuy^H^H^Hcontribute generously to those noble souls working hard to make the state a better place is yet another symptom of pie-in-the-sky naievete.
youre not supposed to ride bikes on sidewalks!
When I ride my bike in a downtown area where there are lots of cars parked on the side of the street, I get on the sidewalk and ride slowly.
The reason is that I can't rely on the drivers watching before they slam open a car door. Technically I'm not supposed to do it but I've had conversations with cops about it and they mostly agree that I'm better off on the sidewalk as long as I'm going slow. Same will probably be true for segway.
If you mod me down the terrorists will have won
Your sentence contradicts itself.
What time is it/will be over there? Check with my iPhone app!
And give you a hefty $70 fine. Bikes are treated as motorcycles from a law enforcment standpoint. They must abide by all the same laws. No sidewalks, no running red lights, must use turn signals etc. The reason you see so many people ON sidewalks with bikes is because police are typically lax on chasing them down in a lot of areas. But in high pedestrian traffic areas you will see lots of "bike cops" making sure bikers are on the road where they belong.
The actions taken by SF government is mostly to help people understand the policy that is CURRENTLY IN PLACE.
It is illegal to drive any motorized vehile (eletric, gas, rubber band powered, whatever) on sidewalks, you must drive them on the street. Also in almost all states bicycles are illegal on sidewalks. (in california anything with a chain/belt or motor must be used on the roads). Unicycles are still legal on sidewalks in california. (unless it's those tall ones that have a chain).
I can see the state and government works special exceptions to the rule of course. so this does not rule out postal workers and police.
The sad thing is if they had been released without fan fare it's doubtful if any cities would have banned them unless they caused problems. I keep reading outrageous claims of speed. They may have changed the specs but the public version was suppose to have an 8mph limiter added and the industrial was going to have either a 12 or 15 mph limit. People keep talking about them going out of control on hills but they were designed for inclines that exceed those in SF. It's a knee jerk reaction to correct a non existent problem. California has a history of leading the country in laws based on panic and the press rather than reality. There should have been a proper study of the situation before any laws were passed.
Your screed is just more of that same old socialist, class envy, bleeding heart nonsense that thinking people pay taxes to protect.
Who gives a crap whether you are POORER or not, fool? We dont make laws in this country just because some whining little snot doesnt have as much money as someone else.
Laws are supposed to be based on the Constitution, not the Communinst Manefesto. Shut the fuck up, loser.
If I'm walking along on a sidewalk, the last thing I want is a bunch of morons zooming around me at 14 miles per hour.
I guess it isn't just me, though.
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
I think that the Segway should not have a right to the sidewalk, as it for a pedestrian mode of transport. Bikes, blades and boards are not allowed, so why SHOULD the segway? Because you can afford it? Well, why don't you ride it on the nice big and cushy road? You paid for that with your progressive tax too, and you should be just as entitled to a strip of the road as any cyclist and blader should have.
Oh, and take a pill, dude. You are angry about this. Do you work for the lobby group or something?
now I am 195lbs and can most likely run faster for longer than I could then.
so doesnt that make me the same as a 120lb person on a segway except they supposedly have better stopping than I would when running and since they arent thinking as much about running they could easily be more observant.
Bottles.
Good god, you're quite the fucking lunatic. Move to fucking albania. You've gone off the deep end with this bullshit you shitzipper.
Just a FYI for the clueless.. Just because you see someone doing it doesn't mean it's legal. It just means the enforcement is lax. I've had many skateboards taken away for skating on public sidewalks where I live. Bikers get fined bigtime ($70) .. You need to be on the street unless you're walking, or it is a designated bike path.
California used to think it was ok enough:
Old Press Release
Personally, I don't think they should ban them, but instead regulate their usage and make owners responsible for their use just like they do with everything else.
Of all the things to be alarmist about... the Segway??
I guess it is an example of people being afraid of new things.
Does this spell the end of the Segway? This has probably killed off the Segway's #1 market. I feel sorry for all those still-employed techies in San Francisco that pre-ordered theirs on Amazon.
Try reading that one again, I think you need to catch your NullPointerExceptions ... lol ...
what part of my site can't you read?
http://www.bookofseg.com/about.html
cheers,
pt
I swear I saw this on techtv about 2 months ago, or more
Assuming that
A) I live in San Francisco
II) I had the money
C) I was stupid enough to buy one
I'd rather know now that they were considering a ban on them. I'd hate to buy one and two months later find out they're being banned. Wouldn't be quite the same riding it around on my patio.
You think people will ignore the fact that they are illegal to use when they shell out $5000 for one? I sure wouldn't buy something that expensive that I'm not really allowed to use (or at least, not allowed to use as it is designed, which is to be on sidewalks intermingling with pedestrians).
All news I read on slashdot these days have been posted elsewhere a long time ago. I remember reading this article on wired a while ago.
Hopefully in the future though, the city will ease off a bit, and allow the segways at certain times (late evening and night, for example), and in certain uncongested neighborhoods. I'd also like to see more infrastucture devoted to both bikes and segways, so both can be ubiquitous and yet not endanger pedestrians in the slightest. Devoting one lane on all streets to light wheeled traffic (segway, bikes, skateboards, etc.) and leave the sidewalks to the pedestrians, would be a huge step forward, IMHO.
Does it really matter that they banned Segways on sidewalks? Is anyone going to actually buy one of these things? I remember when I thought something like this would be cool, I was 12! All the inconvience of a bike, but none of the exercise!
I wouldnt be worried about injuring some pedestrian as I rode my segway around - I would be worried about some sixth and mission dweller mugging me for it.
I used to ride a go ped around the streets of SF and on more than a few occasions felt really uncomfortable waiting for a light to turn so I could get away from some people who were too interested in my go ped.
In fact, I've seen several people get ticketed by the police for violating that law.
Back when I was in high school, I was ticketed for not only riding my bike on the sidewalk, but also crossing in the middle of the street and riding on the wrong side of the street. I thought it was stupid...after all, everybody did it. In fact, my friend got the same ticket about 10 minutes after I did.
Of course, I later found out (when I asked another cop) that the cop who ticketed me was such an asshole that he had actually ticketed his own mom!
Doesn't San Francisco have Rail Cars (Trollies, whatever...)? Maybe somebody doesn't like the idea of people riding one of these things instead of using the public transport? Or maybe I'm just seeing conspiracies that aren't there.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
On the topic of lobbying and other sundry immoralities ... how many of these cities have been speaking with representatives from companies that manufacture and operate taxis, buses, trains and automobiles? I doubt the Segway manufacturers were the only people talking about laws pertaining to Segway transport.
Skateboards are banned on most city streets as well. There goes your semi-coherent argument.
I am really sorry to hear you are being hurt by the "current progressive tax system". although i have some trouble beleiving you. But if it is true you should keep in mind education is often tax deductable, and you sure need a lot of that.
There used to be a time when Britain was THE leading industrial country. But people got comfortable with that, old industrial interests got entrenched, and as a result they had laws in the end of the 19th century that prohibited automobiles from driving faster than 4mph, and a pedestrian with a red flag had to walk in front of every vehicle. Now it doesn't take too much thinking to see that a country that passes such laws can never last as a leading technological power.
I can just see the US going down the same road with its overregulation of everything.
When men used to be men
Bike laws vary by state. In all states a bike is considered a car when it is on the street unless it is posted that bikes are not allowed (ie interstates). In some states (KY for one) a bike is considered a pedestrian when on the sidewalk and a vehicle when on the street. This is a dangerous law.
LibertineR wrote:
Those are NOT thoughts, Hippie.
Your screed is just more of that same old socialist, class envy, bleeding heart nonsense that thinking people pay taxes to protect.
Who gives a crap whether you are POORER or not, fool? We dont make laws in this country just because some whining little snot doesnt have as much money as someone else.
Laws are supposed to be based on the Constitution, not the Communinst Manefesto. Shut the fuck up, loser.
This LibertineR guy is a hilarious lampoon of ultra-right wing politics. Click on his name and browse his recent posts. This is some seriously funny shit.
Keep it up, LibertineR. You're hilarous!
The get in the way of my skateboard, and let me tell you, when you get hit by my 200 lb gut and big ugly head you had better be wearing a helmet!
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
...imagine that...
I noticed "could" in your statement... probably true.
"Wait til they get a load of me..." I said, as I casually stroked my 18" Poulan chain saw.
It has different max-speeds (user choosen) which should allow it to drive in sidewalks (8mph sidewalk operation)
IMO banning all innovation for security sake isn't the way to go, REGULATING is.
Maneuvering method: dynamic stabilization--five solid-state, angular-rate-sensing gyroscopes and twin-tilt sensors monitor balance 100 times per second to help the HT compensate for the difference between the rider's body movements, varying terrain, and the direction of gravity
Motors: two (one per wheel) brushless, independent, 2-horsepower DC servo motors and helical gearboxes (24:1 gear ratio); this combination allows motors to spin at a higher, more efficient speed and provides smooth, quiet propulsion
Chassis: aluminum; withstands 7 tons of force
Carrying capacity: 250-pound user
Wheels: glass-reinforced thermoplastic
Tires: tubeless, enhanced-traction, puncture-resistant silica compound
Navigable terrain: pedestrian areas, including streets, sidewalks, grass areas, dirt roads, and hills
Turning radius: 0 (turns within its own footprint)
Maximum speeds: 6 mph (Beginner key), 8 mph (Sidewalk Operation key), 12.5 mph (Open Environment key)
Special mode: Power Assist, which allows powered movement over obstacles, stairs, and ramps when not riding
Platform height: 8 inches (20 cm)
User-controlled features: maximum speed, steering sensitivity, and handlebar height
Display: multicolor backlit LCD, shows battery charge and operating condition
Keys: three electronic, 64-bit encoded keys for Beginner, Sidewalk Operation, and Open Environment performance
Security: encoded keys
Safety: redundant systems
Footprint: 19 by 25 inches (48 by 64 cm)
Weight: 83 pounds (38 kg)
Battery type: two smart-charging, 60-cell NiMH packs
Battery range: 10 miles in good conditions on a single charge, 15 miles under optimal test conditions, and 5 miles average under strenuous conditions (continuous start-stop driving, use on inclines and grassy terrain, etc.)
Recharging method: conventional outlet plug-in, power cord included
I'm a chainsmokin' alcoholic sociopath, so-ci-o-path
How about we let people use Segways however they want, then if someone gets injured he can sue whoever was being irresponsible? Oh wait, that's how things used to work before politicians decided to make things "safer" with "proactive" crime-prevention laws like the speed limit. Think about it: we do things that could potentially cause injury every day, but as long as we're careful there's no problem; if we're not and someone gets injured or property gets damaged, then we get punished by the law. Sounds like a pretty good system to me.
Saw a Segway friday evening in Portland OR.
The operator was driving down the street at night.
No lights. No reflectors. Grey vehicle out in traffic and no helmet on operator.
I'd ban the damned things too.
Uh, no. Even if you are confusing a marathoner with a sprinter, the segway is still slower.
12 mph is good for a 5 minute mile, which is about the same as a third-rate high school distance runner.
~D
Considering the segway is only really useful to clowns.
Sorry, I don't understand it either. I also think it seems to contradict itself.
"we aren't blocking traffic, we are traffic"
Until you realize there are SPEED Limits for vehicles on roads, MINIMUM speed limits. If the posted speed is 45 MPH, then you better not do a hair under 35 MPH or you are a traffic hazard. Where I live, they ticket you for going too slow and impeding the traffic. I see bikers ticketed daily. I am happy for this. Imagine coming up on a stepvan that is going way too slow for conditions and signalling a left around the van, only to have a cyclist fall in front of your car!
Bycicle lanes are fine, except where right turns are concerned. I have bad morons see me making a right turn AHEAD of them, and they plow into me anyway! In a perfect world things would be different. Do we have that now?
I think they ought to ban jet propulsion packs, personal helicopters, nuclear submarines, hover boards, portable cold fusion devices, warp drives, and moon lasers as well.
(As long as we're making laws against things that no one will actually ever own, we may as well cover all the bases.)
Buddy of mine is a Dallas Police Officer and he told me that these suckers were basically banned months ago here in Dallas. Namely because they are a danger to pedestrians, 80 lbs piece of metal with a 150+ lbs person jamming down the street at 12+ mph makes for a pretty good accident waiting to happen. Personally I am glad they are banning these things, they are useless and will just make people lazy. If we need anything we need subways in all large cities, and people can just walk between stations, least it will get people off their ever growing butts for a while.
are a cock gobbling homosexual.
Typical /. zealot speak. Buch of jackasses. I want to read about Segway and you shitheads have to bring the only thing you know into it.
Actually, the correct response would be:
:^)
yes, that probably IS the same potential energy (given that both segway and ped are at about equal sea-levels), but I think you meant "kinetic"
man, I'm a nerd...
Gregg Easterbrook (one of the editors of New Republic) writes a weekly column about pro football for ESPN.com. Recently he touched on the Segway in one of his columns:
[I predict] these devices will be a, what's the word, oh yeah, fiasco. Why? They will become the SUVs of the sidewalk.
Everyone who walks will intensely hate Segways. The manufacturer has already persuaded 32 states to certify these monstrosities for use on sidewalks; without that permission, no one would buy one. But the Segway is 200 pounds of metal with a 200-pound rider atop moving 12 mph, velocity of someone who runs track in the 100-meter event. This means a pedestrian struck by a Segway will be hit by 400 pounds moving at sprinter speed. Being struck by a Segway roaring down the sidewalk will be significantly worse than being popped by an NFL linebacker at maximum warp. The things will simply be dangerous.
Segways are also likely to be driven in a selfish manner. They will clog downtown sidewalks, depriving space to regular pedestrians; and sidewalks in downtown New York, Boston and, especially, London are already so crowded you practically have to walk at the curb. People atop Segways will feel that, as the SUVs of the sidewalk, everyone else should jump out of their way. Riders will barrel along on these monstrosities, terrorizing pedestrians, injuring people without accountability, expecting women and children to lunge aside. One of the few quasi-civilized experiences left in big-city downtowns -- walking along, enjoying the day, checking out babes/hunks and looking in shop windows -- could become a nerve-wracking exasperation.
Probably the Segway will be a bust, considering the thing is expensive and hopelessly impractical: where do you put it when you're not riding it? Are you going to carry a 200-pound object in the elevator up to the office with you? Alternatively, Segway's manufacturer may be driven out of business once liability suits begin rolling. Segways are going to cause harm when used as intended, which is a formula to warm the tort lawyer's heart.
But if somehow Segways do catch on, their main effect on society will be to make strolling so unpleasant and risky that people who presently use the subway (TMQ, for example) will resort to driving in order to be off the sidewalks and safe from Segways. Which means the enviro-green marketing of this contraption is a total fiction. Discouraging people from walking in order to get them to ride a dangerous $5,000 hulk of metal that consumes energy! How very Earth-friendly.
His numbers seem to be a bit off--Segways only weigh 69 pounds according to the CNN article--but I think his conclusions are spot on.
TheFrood
If you say "I'll probably get modded down for this..." then I will mod you down.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I know many "pedestrians" that weigh more than twice 70 pounds and can go 12mph, too.
Back before the details on Segway were released and all the hype over "Ginger" was building in the press, Kamen said that his new invention would influence the design of cities. Having lived in SF for 3 years, I can say that it some parts are not currently compatible for Segway use. Fillmore street sidewalks, for instance, are not wide enough for segways and pedestrians. Geary sidewalks, on the other hand, are fine. SF would probably be better served if they restricted Segways only from certain areas (Fillmore Street, Union Square, Union Street, Chestnut, Haight Street, etc.). Tooling around the Presidio on one of these contraptions would be totally badass. From Kamen's assertion about the design of cities, it sounds as if he might have expected segways to get limited usage in areas with high pedestrian traffic. It sounds like he was hoping cities would build Segway-lanes or something once the invention's benefits were proven. Jethro Thomasson
Show me a city where the pedestrians are at full sprint all the time...
Everybody dies frustrated and sad and that is beautiful
My biggest question is where do you put them once you're finished travelling? With cars you park them, with bikes, you can lock them in bike racks, but there is zero infrastructure in place to secure your Segway.
What's the point in taking a Segway somewhere if you can't lock it down. This means you couldn't take it to go shopping, seeing a movie, go to the doctor's, go to class, etc. You might be able to take it to work and keep the Segway in your office... if you have space. That's about it... it doesn't have any other practical use.
I would prefer rollerblades to the Segway any day, since they are small and portable.
well, you would get one. thats fine....but my point is that i dont think there would have been all that many people zooming around to cause a problem...im guessing that they wouldnt have been any more common that mopeds or gas scooters. should they outlaw those too?
i think they did this in anticipation of them becoming extremely common and causing problems, whereas i dont think too many of them are EVER going to sell. its a fun idea, but i dont think they're as practical as many people think.
Gentlemen...BEHOLD!
-Dr. Weird
As far as I know it is illegal to drive a moped or scooter on most major US city sidewalks. They are considered street vehicles, so it is about the same as driving your car on the sidewalk. Maybe it is different in Hawaii. I would personally rather see no motorized vehicles on the sidewalks, hell bikes should even be there, sidewalks are for people and walking.
During the initial hype regarding the release of the Segway, I had a discussion with some friends about the real significance of the invention.
First of all, the Segway will not change the world. In terms of speed, range, carrying capacity, etc., it is similar to the moped. The gyroscopic stabilization system is ingenious, but it does not, by itself, make for a revolution in personal transportation.
Now, the key observation I made was this: if the Segway is successful, it will concievably replace walking as a means of conveyance for many individuals, if only because its 12 MPH top speed exceeds even a brisk gait. This will reduce the amount of excercise that Segway users engage in.
Think about this for a moment. The Segway makes people faster and fatter (if ever there were a more all-American invention, I haven't heard of it). IT was obviously designed as a conspiracy to increase the net momentum of the average American. San Francisco has particular reason to be concerned with this, since its proximity to siesmic fault lines places the city at risk for potentially disasterous consequences of a large aggregate transfer of momentum among its citizens. The city of San Francisco is doing the responsible thing by trying to prevent rush-hour earthquakes!
Anonymous Luddite: "What do you think of the dehumanizing effects of the Internet?"
Andy Grove: "Not Much."
It's a phobic response pure and simple. It's irresponsible to ban an environmentally-friendly transportation vehicle without evidence it is a threat.
...whadduhya expect from a bunch uh homos?
Yes, I was not the first to mention "old ladies," but I was the first to point out that San Francisco has a bunch of hills, which was the whole point of the comment. "Redundant" my ass. If you want Redundant, here's something you've probably heard before: LAY OFF THE CHEAP $3 CRACK. Thx.
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
> What a bunch of spoilsports...or are they? Any
> thoughts on this?"
Why should having more money than brains gain you the privilege of operating your toy on the sidewalk?
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
Yeah, no kidding. Frankly, I think that's the heart of the matter. The rest is just political rhetoric.
I'm no fan of the Segway. I think it's pretty stupid, and will never be anything more than a toy. But when I read about it being banned in San Francisco, one thought came to my mind -- "typical!"
Personally, I hate all the little punk speed freaks begging for money all over the city. But I don't propose banning skateboards, which I'm sure pose a greater threat to pedestrians.
When they took away the segways, I didn't speak up because I didn't have a segway. When they took away the vespas, I didn't speak up because I didn't have a vespa. And when they came to take away my geek status symbol, nobody was left who would speak out against it!
</sarcasm>
San Francisco has a polically powerful
bicycle and pedestrian lobby. They opposed
allowing Segways on sidewalks and that is
the reason for the ban.
As other posters have pointed out, Segways
are not much different than bicycles. In general,
SF also prohibits bikes from riding on sidewalks
(at least in commercial districts). This
is done not only for the safety of pedestrians
but also to protect cyclists. A car pulling out
of a parking lot is not going to be looking
for a fast moving cyclist coming the wrong
direction on a sidewalk.
There have been numerous studies
(in transportation journals) that found
sidewalk riding is statistically much more
dangerous than riding in the street -- even
very busy arterials with no shoulders and
fast moving traffic.
In fact, these studies are so convincing
that I would argue that Segway is opening
itself up to some serious liability problems
if it is telling its riders to use
sidewalks.
OTOH--I am not a Segways-on-sidewalks enthusiast! The platform is wide enough to take up more than half any sidewalk I know about. Segways go more than twice as fast as a normal pedestrian. And although the quoted weight of a Segway keeps going down--when I first read about it, it was more than 80 lbs--that sure doesn't include the weight of the person riding it.
Making trouble today for a better tomorrow...
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
No way. They are equally as dangerous as bikes, if not more so (Segways don't have brakes).
Bzzzt. Wrong.
While the Segway doesn't have traditional friction brakes, it does have regenerative braking ala the GM EV1. Essentially when you lean back to brake, the Segway puts the motors in reverse and turns them into generators. Otherwise there'd be not real way to stop a Segway.
The evil monkey commands you to dance.
You're completely right about the car doors--that's a big risk. There's another way to avoid the accident, though: just stay in the street, and move further away from the cars. This'll put you in the regular car lane, but that's OK. If you're on a street with only one lane and you're holding up people behind you (this'll happen less often than you think), then pull over every now and then and let them by. But don't let them intimidate you out of using the street completely.
If you ride on the sidewalk and ride at walking speed (which is really slow), then you're probably reasonably safe, but there's a lot of unpredictability on the sidewalk--cars pulling in and out of driveways, pedestrians entering and exiting buildings--and none of them are looking out for you, because they don't think they're going to meet anyone with nonzero stopping distance on a sidewalk.
For excellent coverage of these issues, John S. Allen's excellent manual Bicycling Street Smarts is available in its entirety online, or you can order it in print for very cheap. Highly recommended.
--J. Bruce Fields
Here in London, you can't ride bicycles on the pavement and have to ride on the street. For the most part, you do. Shrug, it makes sense to me - chances are higher of injuring a pedestrian otherwise.
:-)
The Segway is a vehicle, so what is the problem with it being on the road?
This is why I think 'bicycle/alternative' lanes are a good idea.
My 2p
Having bikes banned from sidewalks is both for the safety of pedestrians AND cyclists. If you're on a bike and go zooming across a cross-walk.. motorists aren't trained to be looking for fast-moving bikes coming from the sidewalk. That goes for Segways as well.
By the way, how quickly does this thing stop? I imagine if you stopped like you would on a bike, you'd be throw clean off the machine.
This is a motoized vehicle, and had absolutely no business on the sidewalk. If anywhere, it should be on the road, with rights/responsibilities somewhere between a bicycle and a motorcycle.
A sidewalk is for pedestrians, not bicycles, mopeds or anything else. Perhaps, roller skaters, but I think that's the extent of how mechanical a sidewalk dwelling vehicle should be.
I'm an avid cyclist (both competitive and recreational), and I know damn well that we cyclists have to fight tooth and nail for our right to the road and/or bike lanes. I cringe every time I see a cyclist on the sidewalk because it causes people to expect that cyclists will ride on the sidewalk, and this is just not right. We have a right to the road, and have fought very hard for what little bit of it we have.
Likewise, I shudder every time I see an avid runner in the bike lane. I guess they do it because they can't be bothered with the lame sidewalk.
Anyway, every vehicle has it's place in the transportation system. Pedestrians belong on the sidewalk. Bicycles have a right to the road, and the same responsibilities as any car or motorcycle. I think a Segway should fall into the same category as a bicycle; it should have a right to the road, but shouldn't be able to take the full lane unless necessary for safety, just like a bicycle.
"A terrorist is someone who has a bomb but doesn't have an air force." -William Blum
I'm watching this thread closely. I don't doubt for a minute that the PR firms that handle tech clients have seeded /. with paid posters. Segway is backed by famously deep pockets and would be a likely customer for a /. turfing.
Thus far, all the highly modded posts are quite rightly pointing out the existing laws and science of bicycle transportation. Let's see what the latter posts look like now that that the employees of Kamen's PR company are likely to be working late tonight.
This is a good place to start if you're looking for real studies of transportation safety.
I can understand this happening in SF, where you can't walk slowly without touching shoulders with everyone. On a large moving platform with handlebars, you're just begging for injuries and lawsuits and whatnot.
Oakland is a bit less crazy, same with Santa Cruz, and San Mateo is just silly (hey we're a big city too! give us some press!)
Anyway, there are definitly areas of all these cities where I'd love to be moving a bit faster, as well as areas where everyone should be walking. Bikes, rollerblades, skateboards, mopeds, etc should be banned by an area-by-area basis.
How about Walking-Only zones (handicapped excepted) in certain areas as opposed to shooting things down individually before they are even being shipped....geez
Maybe this is why Jeff Bezos said "cities would be designed around it" (let's not start an argument about whether Segway is or isn't Ginger). Pedestrians think it's too fast, and drivers think it's too slow. And if that's not enough, every state seems to have their own ideas about where the Segway should be used. We could have them ride in bike lanes I suppose, but those are not very widespread in all areas (and even if they were, you know there are going to be bikers that take offense).
Bezos almost had it right. But instead of cities being built around it because of its popularity, I would imagine that it won't become popular until someone builds a city around it. Catch-22.
Is there any connection with 'IT' from Soutk Park?
Living in Berkeley, I was disheartened to see the ban on Segways -- I would like to have seen them been given a chance.
I don't understand why there was no trial period, I was hoping to see them compete in the X Games, and I for one can't imagine a better way to get that new sofa home from the Pottery Barn or IKEA.
So many missed opportunities, both real and comedic....
A bunch of poeple here are upset about this ban. Jesus, people, where's your common sense? I've logged a LOT of miles on sidewalks (3 miles per day for 5+ years) and I've been hit twice by bicycles and had countless near misses (read: would have been hits had I not jumped out of the way) with humans operating bicycles, skateboards and rollerblades.
For those that are STILL not with me, take this test:
You are walking on a sidewalk and you are confronted with a slow moving person ahead of you. You:
A. Walk around them!
B. Walk slower so as to not bump into them.
C. Look over your shoulder to make sure you won't be run down when you step around the old lady.
If you said A... bzzzzzzzzt. Because bicycles illegally share our sidewalks, you cannot choose A.
Another test: someone is coming straight for you on a bicycle. Do you step left, right or stay where you are? If you step left, what if they veer right?
People, the word `sidewalk' matches the regexp ".*walk$" for a reason!
Try this experiment: go to your friendly local downtown sidewalk, and run 3 blocks at a flat-out sprint.
Now ask yourself; did that appear to be safe? From the expressions of the people around you, did they appear to think that what you were doing was safe? If a little old lady turned across your path, or someone opened a door in your face, what would happen? If you do this every day for a year, do you think the cops might start to take an interest in you?
Pedestrians are not *automatically* harmless, and an object that makes it easy to go at the maximum speed of a pedestrian is not necessarily harmless either.
--Bruce F.
On the sidewalk in urban areas, you can (IANAL, so this is just based on experience and what I've known cops to give you a talking-to for) ride skates (inline or the older non-trendy kind), non-powered Razor(TM)-type scooters and your Nike Air Force Ones. Yea, you can stop down the sidewalk in your... Ugh, I wish I could get that song out of my head.
The problem I see the Segway having is the same problem Go-peds have. You can't ride go-peds on the sidewalk. You can't ride them in the street either, most of them lack the equipment and certification required to make them street legal.
The smallest gas powered (as in engine displacement) street legal vehicle is a 49.9cc moped/scooter. If you take a look at one, you'll notice it has DOT approved lighting, turn and brake signals. I'm sure if the Segway was modified to be street legal, it could be driven on the street, but ask anyone who has driven a moped (usually with a top speed of about 30MPH) what it's like having people not see you and passing you going 10-25MPH faster than you in most cases. If the Segway has a top speed of 12MPH and is less visible than a biycle, sharing the road with cars would be nothing short of suicide.
As others have said many times before (especially those who ride 49.9cc mopeds/scooters), there needs to be a dedicated lane for low-speed powered vehicles on roadways. Mixing low-speed vehicles with cars and trucks is just as dangerous as mixing low-speed vehicles with pedestrians.
Issues like these make me glad I'm old enough to have a driver's licence and just drive a car.
---
DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
Some of us who work out weigh at least 25% less than that.
Just because he's a lard ass, please don't paint all of us with the same broad brush.
200 pound lardass!
Which is the same speed and 30 pounds less than many electric wheelchairs.
People disputing this issue need to forget about comparisons to bicycles and scooters and start to discern how they justify banning Segway bit not motorized wheelchairs.
Jim
This is mostly true, but note that it's not universally true that bicycles are banned from sidewalks; in the US this is usually a matter for local governments (though there may also be a few states with such bans, I'm not sure).
Certainly it's true that, whatever the law says, people on vehicles with nonzero stopping distances (like bicycles) are better off riding with traffic rather than riding on the sidewalks.
--Bruce F.
Hmmm...is that cum dripping out of your mouth? I'll never respect YOU in the morning! Seriously though...once again, government is doing what they seem to want to do bast - protecting us from ourseles. Question is....who (then) protects us from THEM???
The title should include the word "sidewalk" in it. Many posters think that the devices have been banned entirely.
What would you expect, coming from Canada?
How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
tcpa SUX!!!!
"No it isn't, it's the space for the door to open, asshole."
-- Denis Leary
sidewalks is used for walking
and that's just what they'll do
one of these days these segwalks
gonna drive all over you
..how delighted shop owners will be when people start 'driving' these things through their shops - after all, what are they gonna do - leave 'em outside on the sidewalk?
Bikes belong in the street. There is a political/social movement called Critical Mass that advocates bike-safe streets. ANY city can start a Critical Mass ride, they take place in cities all over the planet on the last friday of the month - AND ITS SUPER FUN!
all thats necessary is a few posters in the bike shops designating a meeting time (city hall, say 19:00) and the group determines the ride based on their mood. Follow the rules of the road, and pass out filers.
I'll bet ten to one that the automobile industry lobbied against their use. Also seems very bizarre to ban something before it exists. Is that legal? Has San Francisco turned into a bunch of luddites now that the .bomb crash has set it?
If the seguay is allowed to prosper, cars will be gone from the central parts of cities the world over in 10 years.
I wonder what the U.S Postal Service is going to do in San Francisco? They are getting the first free ones
You mean over 17 right?
-WolfWithoutAClause
"Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"Yeah, I know this is offtopic, but every time I hear about these things I can't help but look forward to the great TV shows they could spawn:
"America's Wildest Segway Chases"
"When Segways Attack!"
etc.
I imagine if they were allowed on the sidewalk and you even brushed someone you would get sued real quick. You gotta share the wealth in CA, and please dont forget to feed the lawyers! :)
You wanna be the one to tell the Postal worker that he can't have his Segway? I don't.
Off a track, not very. On a crowded street? Even more rarely.
By the way... (OT) 'under God, indivisible...' Make up your mind and pick one.
I can't believe this slashdot mindset. I guess nobody here walks on the sidewalks, so they don't give a damn...
Segways are motorized vehicles. Allowing them on the sidewalk would be hypocritical, since you can't ride a bike, skateboard, motorcycle, or any other vehicle.
The roads are for faster traffic, not the sidewalks. Get over it.
<RANT>
Besides, who wants a Segway? Morotrized scooters have been around for decades. So who in the USPS did they bribe to get them to purchase a bunch of segways, when electric wheelchairs would have been cheaper, and easier for postmen.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
San Francisco has a large elderly population, and they have enough trouble getting around town without having to worry about being creamed by some pasty yuppie ass tooling down the sidewalk on his $10,000 toy, yapping on his goddamn cell phone.
Your attitude towards your fellow citizens is offensive in the least, and stupid besides. Do you really think that "pasty yuppie asses" will be the ones to buy this thing - instead of (for example) postal workers, who are already testing it?
I thought cheap bashing of tech professionals went out with the boom - when the bashers suddenly found that they didn't have jobs either. Guess not. So much for San Franciscans' supposed tolerance of others.
sulli
RTFJ.
Apparently, OPEC and Detroit car makers have done effective lobbying to prevent Segways from replacing cars for transportation. Wouldn't want Segways to save oil, reduce pollution over cars, and make the roads less crowded. If it worked in a liberal city like SF...
Vote for Pedro
I've spent the last 10 minutes typing out a longass post, but just deleted it. The reason: the whole thing can be summed up in one statement-
All the hype in the world can't change the fact that the segway is fucking stupid.
This will be modded down, yet the page I just deleted which said nothing more than the above would have been marked "insightful".. interesting.
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
I'll believe it if, and only if, March 2003 rolls around and they actually ship the thing.
sulli
RTFJ.
As long as you drive a car, you're ok. Would you choose any other means of transportation, 'they' will do anything and everything to deter you from doing so.
This is the bottom line. It really is.
It's a 2,000 pound contraption, that causes what ... 5,000 deaths annually in the US alone, usually used only by a single person, who has absolutely no respect for anyone else on the road, often hitting pedestrians, bicycles and others due to their "I own the road" attitudes. They account for roughly 30% of all the polution in the US, and are the number one cause of dependence on foreign oil.
Why aren't they banned from inner cities? They're a hell of a lot more dangerous than all the other types of transportation put together.
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
This is a large problem. We seem to think that we can make our lives safer by passing more laws and making more actions illegal. The only advantage to doing this is settling lawsuits. The cell phone driving laws are another great example of this type of incorrect lawmaking. To make you feel safer, other people can not talk on a cell phone while they are driving, but that does not stop them from eating, drinking, playing a card game, watching a movie, or any other action that could, need not matter how much, affect their driving ability. So Segways can't be ran on the sidewalk? So it is safer to ride them on the street? Can you prove that?
Can we prove that riding a public bus is safer than driving a car, if so, let's ban cars!
Preemptive laws, a minority report coming to your neighborhood soon.
Intelligence is a matter of opinion.
Bikes are not allowed to ride on the sidewalk in San Francisco (Or in most Californian cities).
As an avid San Francisco bicyclist, I agree with this. Bikes on the sidewalk are a hazard to pedestrians.
Also, if you bike on a sidewalk, most drivers on the road will not notice or see you if they decide to make a turn.
Bikes are a vehicle, they must be visible and belong on the road.
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
Seems to be an overly huge story so such a simple rule.
Guess what else are banned from sidewalks.
Cars. Bikes. Motorcycles. Skateboards. Dog shit.
I've lived in a few U.S. cities (in the North, East, Midwest, West and South), and not one allowed motorized vehicles on the sidewalks. Hell, most don't even allow human powered bikes. Why should the Segway be any different? Because it's "cool technology"? Nah. Allow it in the 'burbs and rural areas? Sure, fine. But not in the cities. I think that San Fran made the right decision.
Yay for San Francisco.
What a DUMB invention considering all of the hype. Blech.
Give me something cool, Mr. Kamen, not pet-names and untimely press-releases for stolen ideas.
Last time I was in the states, it looked like a lot of people could use the walk.
Remember that prior to this, the default in most cities is that motorized vehicles of any kind (except the powered wheelchairs of the disabled) are not allowed on sidewalks.
In some cases vehicles of any kind are by default banned, usually bikes and often rollerblades and even skateboards.
Segway worked hard to get laws passed to declare their device a special case, not like an ordinary motorized vehicle. Some cities resisted, said, "no, we are not going to make a special exception for your new device. It gets classed like any other motorized vehicle, and as always, it's banned from the sidewalks."
Where Kamen goofed is he got broader laws passed declaring the Segway to not be a vehicle and thus, according to state and national laws IT IS NOT ALLOWED ON THE ROADS. So in places where it is banned on the sidewalk, it is also, unless they say otherwise, also not allowed on the roads either. I don't think this will be enforced, though.
I do agree they should see if the device is a danger before deciding where it should go. But realize that the current default is what SF did. What other cities who are "not banning" it have done is to change their rules to allow this one motorized vehicle on their sidewalks.
Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
You're right about car doors being a hazard but the way to deal with that is to ride a safe distance from the parked cars. If you find cars are passing you too close in the lane, then ride just to the left of the center of the lane - that gives you lots of space and people will use the other lane to pass (or wait, if it's the only lane).
Sidewalks are very dangerous places to ride unless you're at a granny pace.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
If, for any reason, you feel compelled to get off the street and on to the sidewalk, you have every right to do so, but then you must get off your bike and walk it. Not ride slowly, not ride fast, not ride at all, walk, just like the last 4 letters of the word sidewalk. Hope this helps.
I wanted to say a couple things about this as a lifelong resident of Santa Cruz:
Where would they ban the Segway from being used? The article just says the sidewalks but doesn't specify which ones.
Perhaps the largest areas with foot traffic that I can think of in Santa Cruz is either UCSC or Pacific Ave, where a lot of businesses are. (Any other Santa Cruz folks wanna pipe in, these are two places that I think of that have a lot of people).
If Santa Cruz were to ban it from just Pacific Ave, that would make sense because it is already crowded as it is, having a Segway there is NOT going to help anyone other than getting in the way of pedestrians.
They already ban skateboards and rollerblades on Pacific Ave, why allow Segways?
If Santa Cruz were stupid enough to ban it from all sidewalks in the city, that would be quite moronic. There are plenty of places that it would be kind of nice to have. Santa Cruz is small enough for a Segway to be a reasonable commuting device (although a bike would be better). As I mentioned before, they banned skateboards and rollerblades on Pacific Ave, but they do allow them in other parts of the city, so a city-wide ban doesn't seem likely.
Having said that, I personally think the Segway will fail in Santa Cruz. Considering that it can typically travel faster than a normal pedestrian, the Segway's best place would probably be in the bike lanes as opposed to the sidewalks. I believe Segway argues otherwise and calls it a pedestrian vehicle.
However, Santa Cruz, as political and anti-corporate, anti-national-chains, pro-bike, etc. as they are, they don't really have that many bike lanes. If you were to just glance at the opinions page of the Santa Cruz Sentinel (the local newspaper), you would have people complaining about a lack of bike lanes. If you were to ride your bike in Santa Cruz, you might notice this as well.
I think that for the Segway to succeed, they REALLY need to figure out how to market these things. By that I mean, they need to figure out where these things belong. I believe Segway says it should be on the sidewalks. I personally think that at the speeds they are capable of, they need to be in the bike lanes.
So, no personal transportation vehicles, but if you want to be a public nuisance, pissy-smelling-drug-addicted bum, then that's OK, and even encouraged (the city is a real bum-opolis if you've never been there - cities like Tucson give their bums free bus tickets to cities like SF, LA, and San Diego). Beautiful place in many ways, but also quite topsy turvey in many respects.
The stupidest state in the country starts to show some intelligence. Bicycles are banned from sidewalks in virtually every city in the US and with good reason -- a hunk of metal travelling at 12-15mph can inflict a lot of damage on human flesh.
This is not a matter of liberal vs conservative or rich vs poor. It's purely a matter of common sense.
The Segway is not only a stupid idea, it has no place on sidewalks.
The price of the device didn't help its case either. Being a liberal city, a $4000 device is seen as a rich man's toy and rich men should be spending their money on social problems such as the homeless problem, not toys. This viewpoint is pretty common here unfortunately.
:
Sure. That must explain why everyone in town is driving Yugos and all those expensive aparements and lofts are going begging.
After exercising the weird conspiracy theories, you do get to the salient point
On the other hand, you have to realize that the sidewalks are litterly *packed* with people in many parts of the city. The segway would have caused problems simply because it is impossible to walk without bumping into someone.
What I have trouble believing is that anyone thinks this would be a good idea on a city sidewalk. They're already packed with people who can't be troubled to watch where they're walking - it's lunacy to give 'em 70+ more pounds, quadruple their velocity and make them take up more space.
How can this ban be justified as in any way based on safety? There is no point in comparing them to bicycles and scooters. They are directly equivalent to motorized wheelchairs and have obvious application for those who currently use walkers.
http://phc-online.com/3G_arrow_storm.htm
For those concerned about weight and speed, the popular Rascal three wheeler is 250 pounds with a top speed of 5 mph, or an Arrow weighs 170 pounds less batteries and goes 8 mph.
http://www.northwestmobility.com/Power/x48.htm
Jim
Apparently its only attractive feature is its clever balance and steering control. Other than that, what? You don't have to walk a few blocks, just stand there like an upright couch potato? This is a useful thing, a revolution in transportation? Can't you tell when you're about to get swindled by a snake-oil salesman?
Sheesh. I should get into the Invent Things for Affluent Idiots game.
Today's new term: Seg Potato
The hype shouldn't write checks the product can't cash.
Then again, it would be nice if important inventions could be evaluated on something other than how well they play as the lead story on Entertainment Tonight.
LadyStar - Your Magical and Mysterious Adventure Awaits
Pedestrians are not *automatically* harmless, and an object that makes it easy to go at the maximum speed of a pedestrian is not necessarily harmless either.
I don't know for sure, but are people banned from running on sidewalks? A 3 hour marathon averages a little under 9 miles per hour. A 6 minute mile is 10 mph. So, I will agree with the segway ban as long as runners are not allowed on sidewalks either.
Yep. Can't resist the arrogant smartass comment about the Pledge of Allegiance, can you? Have a cookie.
Many cars can go up to 120mph, but you don't see them being banned from residential streets. Why? Because even though they can go up to 120mph, doesn't mean that people drive them that fast very often.
Likewise, even though Segways can travel at up to 12mph, this doesn't mean that people often will. If there are other pedestrians on the sidewalk, the person riding the segway will presumably go at a safer speed, just like you don't generally see people running along sidewalks very fast when people are on them. Also, once you've had a little practice riding on a Segway it's hard to run into people because your body wants to reflexively move out of the way.
Snarkiness is inversely proportional to wisdom because it emphasizes feeling right rather than being right.
"The Santa Cruz Transportation Commission voted Wednesday night to recommend that the City Council not wade into the debate over where the electric two-wheeled gizmo will be allowed to operate. Commissioners said that since no city employee or elected officials has ever seen the Segway in action, it's impossible to guess the machine's impact."
Jerkcity is the place to be.
Or do bicycles sound like the next revolution, if Segways were here first.
You could even get a UNICYCLE and use your own human hardware to control it. We come equipt with both computers and gyros.
500 dollars, or 200 dollars, maybe. But 5000 dollars would buy you half a car. Or 25 good bicycles.
I say AWAY with the SEGWAY! Not in my house!
I saw disney land staff (in LA) trying the move around the theme park on a busy 3 day weekend. It wasn't helping them move there either!
If Segway riders ride on the sidewalk they endanger pedestrians. If they ride in the road Segway riders are endangered by cars.
Cyclists have the same problem. So do mo-ped riders, skateboarders, bladers...
Yeah, I know some cities have cycle lanes, but the ones I've seen (NYC) are more likely to be used by cabs than bikes because they are just sections of roadway demarkated by painted lines.
Maybe it's time the leisure, safety, health-conscious US tried building real cycle lanes a' la' BeNeLux. They'd be a boon for alot of people.
I live in San Mateo, and though there's an argument for injury in SF, down here that really isn't the case. Even in downtown San Mateo, the sidewalks are rarely packed. San Mateo is also quite spread out as opposed to SF, so the odds that someone would actually use a SegWay are pretty small. In addition, the area I live in is so hilly that I'm quite doubtful a segway could even get me home from the grocery store. All in all, San Mateo even being concerned about this is just an effort to get the town's name in the news.
"before they arrive"?! ...are they kidding? From what I see on the streets of Palo Alto, the yuppie kids got hold of them before the plastic moldings had cooled.... ... never underestimate how gadget crazy this area is...
the go-peds and Segways are battling for supremacy of the sidewalks as I speak, whirling bike chains and all.....
'This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it' - Eeyore
Bill Gates is also banned on sidewalks in San Fransisco, so there you have it.
this is a sig.
San Francisco's board of supervisors are thinking of them too narrowly, as toys, and banning them the same way they ban skateboards. Maybe they should be treated by the city as it treats other things that have both recreational and medicinal uses and allow them to be used anywhere, but only by perscription for those who really need them.
Though the Segway is used by a small and respected group of people it would only take one "chariot race" and a lawsuit to bring, inventer Dean Cain, and the Segway down forever. Banning it is not the answer to the Segway but a few good laws might help the Segway be safer and more widely accepted by cities.
Classic! BAHAHAHAHHAHA
Oh well in the part of SF where I live there there aren't that many side walks any way (The Presidio ) Besides the SFPD doesn't have any authority here and the Us Park police are too busy at Ocean Beach
i'm a graduate student at the university of california, in the school of information management and systems. the ban on segways was proposed back in august, and we wrote a paper on the future of its use. i have it up in pdf format -- go ahead and have a look -- if there's any demand whatsoever, i'll convert it to html. enjoy.
If you run at marathoner's race-pace (10 MPH) on a crowded city sidewalk in just about any city, a cop would definately stop you. If for no other reason, because he would assume that you must be running from something.
Yeah, but he can do that much damage because he's always moving backwards.
"And a solution hasn't yet been invented for the biggest obstacle he's encountered so far: the weather. It has been a frosty winter. The battery expires too quickly when the temperature drops to 40 or so."
Way down at the bottom of this article.
Do not read this sig.
So you think you can tell everyone else to STFU because they're not from your city? Well then asshole, stop electing congressmen that tell my state, VA what guns are legal to own, what is legal to say, how much of our income we deserve to keep, where our national guard troops get sent because your bleeding heart asshole representatives decide we need to help some pissant 3rd world nation and more important, stop taking our fucking money and resources and paying for your god damn social programs with it!
Oh no, that would require you to really respect the federal system. If I can't criticize your local government then you cannot elect representatives that tell me and mine what to do. Don't like that? Go fuck yourself. How the hell do posts like yours get modded up?
Click here or a puppy gets stomped!
Here is the solution: hit the back button a few times. Go further down the page. Continue reading about Segway. After that, go blow yourself.
It was a mildly amusing joke, and if you don't want to read it, go read another post. It isn't worth bitching about. You know there are a lot more right, and that you can read anyone you want?
So move on, and the problem is soved. Thanks for your time, and perhaps in the future this advice I have given you will save some of YOUR time.
I heard that one of the reasons they wanted to ban the Segway in San Francisco, is because they didn't want to give fat people another reason not to walk.
"The city of San Francisco has banned the Segway [CNN.com] from it's sidewalks"
Banned from it is sidewalks?
How many times do I have to teach you stupid fucks how to speak english?
Now, imagine that same pedestrian on a 70 pound Segway going 12 mph . . .
It says it can go anywhere a human can... how bout down stairs? It's a heavy machine who wants to lug it down a flight of stairs?
Not only that, but please, just get a damn bike people. So many overweight people already, is this necessary?
-- taking over the world, we are.
The phrase is "nip them in the bud", as in preventing something from flowering. Althought "knit them in the butt" ...
You forget. This IS San Fransisco, we are talking about after all.
Think about it;
This is a device that makes you taller, makes you physically bigger and can make other people move out of your way. I was watching the segway being used in a video promoting the segway and the thing that is most noticed is that people walking would automactically get out of the Segway's way. I have had enough of fucking SUV and the asshole driver bullying everyone else on the road. I dont want to see it happen on the sidewalk also.
Sigs are dangerous coy things
From the article:
...it packs about the same punch as a 150lb adult running at 8mph? Hello? Is there not a single one among them with a highschool-aged child taking physics?
Critics say the Segway is a safety hazard on sidewalks because it weighs 69 pounds and travels at up to 12.5 mph -- three times faster than the typical pedestrian.
Oh, right, so
*sigh
These weenies are so law-happy, let them set a damned speed limit on them. Cripes. This is a little like the apocryphal carpenter who views every problem like it's a nail. These nits don't have to start thinking "outside the box," they just need to start thinking.
Let the politician jokes begin...
My
Limekiller
This is entirely the work of Excitable San Franciso Elderly. I live in SF and remember several months ago when this was a big story here. The SF Bay Guardian had a good write up. Seems the NAACP or some such group of fuddy duddy retirees started spreading all kinds of evil rumors about the Segway (like the lie that it goes 40mph) and griping about potential segway/osteoporosis induced multiple fractures (Help! IT's fallen on me and I can't get IT up!)
Meanwhile, we have shot down public power initiatives and come up with some draconian new laws against the homeless. Progressive city, indeed.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
No matter how slowly you ride, bicyclists cause problems on the sidewalk.
If you're too afraid to ride on the street, either find a route with a bike lane or forget the bike.
I believe the United States Post Office Mail carriers are supposed to be among the biggest buyers of the Segway. So what happens to the mail carriers in SF or other cities in question? They can walk all day and get half as much done, or they can use a powered Segway Scooter and save some money in terms of manpower and injury due to walking (though I don't think a Segway can outrun a dog.) I doubt SF has considred if the Segway can carry mail to make delievery more efficient.
Because it's an auto industry conspiracy! Conspiracy I say! And everyone knows that the auto industry is responsible for SUV's and all SUV owners are terrorists! It's the terrorists!!!
Fat Rider: 200 * .45 kgs = 90 kg
Total mass: 31.5 kg + 90 kg = 121.5 kg
Speed: 12 / 60 / 60 / .62 * 1000 = 5.4 m/s
Energy of human/transporter system: mv^2 = 121.5 * 5.4^2 = 3543 joules
Muzzle Energy of an AK-47 assault rifle: 1992 joules
Ouch?
Since most people haven't seen one at all, I thought I would share. I saw one in action in "Downtown Disney" at Orlando. Downtown is the place with some shopping and a lot of nightlife. It was around 8pm at night on a warm evening, and there were large crowds.
While I was waiting for my friends, I noticed someone speeding along at something a little faster than normal walking pace among a swarm of people, about a head taller than everyone else.
Sure enough, he was on a segway. He wasn't wearing a uniform, and he wasn't stopping to talk, he was just going somewhere. He had absolutely no trouble navigating a crowd. A child ran out in front of him, and he had absolutely no trouble stopping in time.
So, I think a lot of people are worried about nothing. It's the regular fear of the unknown. If a segway mowing you down is your greatest fear in life, I envy you.
--T
http://www.theMediaBunker.com
I think at most there will be 200 to 400 of these made and sold.
I think it's a great law too (even though I'm a fanatic Mountain Biker). Motorized Vehicles and Bikes don't belong on the sidewalk.
BTW, isn't it under the age of 18 that you have to wear a helmet...?
Where are you getting your information from? Were you actually present at the meeting? Some of your statments smell of sensationalist tripe... a common occurance in the Bay Area.
I lived in SF for 7 years, and Berkeley for 2.5 years, and have been an avid biker in Berkeley, Oakland and SF for 3 years.
Listen, SF is a crowded city. The sidewalks can be almost impassable during commute and lunch hours.
Bikes, skateboards, rollerblades, scooters, and any other fast-moving wheeled device are banned from the sidewalk. Why should the Segway be any different?
They believe this device would cause everyone to get fat.
Could you please post your reference?
According to an article at Wired,
Pedestrian advocates are gearing up for a fight as Segway shifts its lobbying from statehouses to city halls.
"We don't want to say that it doesn't ever make sense. But in urban settings there isn't enough room for all the pedestrians," said Ellen Vanderslice, president of America WALKs, a pedestrian advocacy group.
Being a liberal city, a $4000 device is seen as a rich man's toy and rich men should be spending their money on social problems such as the homeless problem, not toys. This viewpoint is pretty common here unfortunately.
*SIGH*. More tripe. If they really wanted to ban it because it was a "rich man's toy", then why aren't they trying to take away other "rich man's toys"? SF is a City *full* of "rich man's toys".
That would hurt the disabled however, so it isn't even considered.
Any ban on wheelchairs in any American city would quickly be declared in violation with the American Disability Act. It has nothing to do with SF PCness as you suggest...
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
I know ATHIESTS who are amazed that San Francisco has not been destroyed by a gigantic bolt of lightning. That much total and complete fuckheadedness HAS to provoke some sort of reaction from the universe eventually.
In fact, all of California is a prime exaple for you out there of what happens when the Left has pretty much free reign to do what they want. They can anally rape a budget surplus into a record deficit in no time at all, and profess innocence and blame everyone else as they stand naked over the still warm corpse with their smoking, bloody dick wiggling about.
And before you Lefties get all hurt like, yes, the Right is just as bad. Ideology = mental illness.
--- Ban humanity.
A USPS, UPS, FedEx, etc., employee in a mjaor city
The Disabled
Children
Cops, EMTs, etc.
I will however injure with extreme prejudice Segway riders who are:
Yuppie Scum who want one because they think they're cool
Drunken Frat Boys
People too self important to actually use the form of bipedal transportation known was "walking"
Now all we need to do is pass this as a law, verbatim, and the Segway should have no problems whatsoever.
Seriously though, this is an incredibly useless device for average pedestrian use. I mean, if its going to be so horribly inconvenient for you to get somewhere by actually walking, take a Freakin Cab!!! It should cost abput the same in the long run.
Mod Points: Helping you keep your opinion to yourself.
YHBT! TCBY!
I got a warning and stern talking to for speeding in Lake Placid, NY. I was on my bike.
Ellen Vanderslice, president of America WALKs, a pedestrian advocacy group based in Portland, Ore.
A PEDESTRIAN LOBBY! Oh, for the love of god! Representing the interests of people.... who.... walk.... around.
Even Australia has an equivalent organisation! Australia has a population of only 20 million people and they have a fucking pedestrian lobby! With fiery rhetoric about being "second class citizens!" People who walk! Are oppressed!
There's only one option left; we have to kill all the lobbyists and start over. That fascist bastard Howard (PM of Australia, recall the earlier slashdot article) wants to throw somebody in a gulag in the worst way - let him have the fucking pedestrian advocacy council or whatever they're called. Maybe it will start a fad.
The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.
It was probably banned due to the hills in those cities.
sure, you can ride a bike on the road here..... if you want to die. very soon. and painfully. seriously, in most cities riding a bike on the street is suicide.
----
All of whose base are belong to the what-now?
Here in Melbourne, FL, that would be dangerous for bicyclists and inconvenient for motorists. The speed limit on the the main roads is 45 MPH with most people going 50. Fortunately our sidewalks are usually spacious and have good visibility, so bicyclists and pedestrians can coexist pretty well.
Allowing small powered vehicles on sidewalks is a real issue. The Segway isn't the only contender. What about electric-powered scooters, which far outnumber Segways? What about powered shopping carts, like you see in some stores? What about all those golf-cart type devices sold to the elderly? Where do you draw the line?
Skateboarders aren't usually a problem because bad skaters wipe themselves out before they hit others.
It's a first-generation use of the Kamen Balancing Platform(pp). Of course it's not as sleek or refined as you'd want it to be, but it's barely even in production yet. Do you think Kitty Hawk denizens demanded SR-71s a year after the Wrights' flights? Give it time to mature before dismissing it as just a toy or proclaiming that it's too unwieldy to ever be useful.
Have you ever noticed how Segway boosters cite its stability and concomitant safety? Now, I'm willing to believe it's pretty stable, but it's time to point out the fallacy in assuming that implies safety, either for the rider or other users of public thoroughfares.
Unlike the skateboards in Snow Crash (which show N. Stephenson understood this issue far better than these fools) the Segway has NO RADAR. It can't tell if the rider is about to collide with something, like a person, pothole, or curb.
Why is that important? Well, for the other people on the pavement, it's mostly an issue of getting run into. For a Segway rider, though, I have yet to see anyone else point out the pothole and curb issue. Look at what you've got:
1) Much smaller wheels than a bicycle
2) A center of mass about as high, and not nearly as far behind the point of ground contact as a bicycle has.
Together, these mean that
A) Potholes, bump and curbs will stop a Segway much more forcefully than a bicycle
B) You can't stop a Segway nearly as quickly when you find yourself approaching one.
It's basic physics:
I) The smaller wheels, on encountering an object, have a steeper effective inclined plane
II) The torque about the point of ground contact when stopping is greater in the Segway, since the angle of force is almost perpindicular to it.
Given that stopping fast is already a problem with bicycles (here's how to stop a bicycle as fast as possible) since they can endo instead of skidding or ABSing like cars, it's going to be even worse for a Segway. I estimate that a Segway doesn't stop any better than rollerblades, and that's not too good.
I also think it likely a Segway can't turn away from trouble too easily either -- at least if it needs to keep both wheels on the ground.
But those things are just too damn bulky...
I wish they would ban _fat people_ from the sidewalks, as many of them are significantly bulkier, wider, and heavier than me on a Segway. But they're not faster.
Since when are political decisions made according to the scientific method, or even logic? Or even common sense?
There are people who profit in a big way from California's ongoing energy crunch, and unsurprisingly the energy moguls have contributed heavily to SF municipal politico pockets (cf. the municipal power vote). In addition, there are public transportation lobbies (like strike-happy BART workers) that fear changing legislation - who'd pay $2500/year or more for a daily 10 mile round-trip BART commute (as many commuters do) when they could spend half that on a Segway?
The question you have to always ask when you see any bizarre political decision is "who benefits?".
There's another way to avoid the accident, though: just stay in the street, and move further away from the cars.
Or, here's an even better Idea, Just Don't Ride A Bike on City Streets, ride it on a Bike trail if your city has one.
"hiring high-powered lobbyists may have backfired."
Yes well when the politicians look at how much they spent on the lobbyists (shirtloads)
and compare that with how much they spent on bribes *cough* campaign contributions (none?)
it doesn't take an MBA (like George W's dad bought for him) to work out what you need to do;
You stiff the berk with the gall to fail to bribe you *at*all* and then spent $$$ big to hire an outfit to harass you (erm 'lobbyist: paid bribe giver and harasser').
The inventors of the seqway may be geniuses but they don't understand politics.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
The said the same thing about the Stanley Steamer and all of the other first cars. "They're a menace for the horses! We could be killed if one were to go out of control!"
STFU SAN FRAN. It's one thing to to have an open policy saying something like "We the city of San Francisco do not support buying these things. The city will not use these vehicles for official business."
But to ban them. This will go to court. They will be allowed in the city in the end. Guess what, bicycles have their own painted area on the street. Something wrong with them being used there?
Are they afraid that some guy is going to run into the back of another guy?
For some reason we put up with the hazards that automobiles create. Handguns have not caught up to them yet, and I doubt Segways ever will.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Lets apply the conservation of momentum to a situation involving a man walking toward another man of same mass going 15 mph on a segway (for this we'll neglect friction).
Vi1 = 2.235 m/s (5 mph)
M1 = 77.27 Kg (150 lbs)
Vi2 = 6.705 m/s (15 mph)
M2 = 100 Kg (220 lbs)
say at the end the segway with rider stops in its tracks and the man goes flying, and since the man is travelling toward the man we can say he's going -2.235 m/s.
Pi = Pf
M1(Vi1) + M2(Vi2) = M1(Vf1) + M2(Vf2)
(77.27 Kg)(-2.235 m/s) + (100 Kg)(6.705 m/s) = (77.27 Kg)(Vf1) + 0
Vf1 = 9.648 m/s or 21.583 mph.
ouch.
(sorry about repost forgot to put in my pw.)
I've seen two yuppies (the financial kind) whiz by on the sidewalk in front of my office in downtown San Francisco (so much for "a device that hasn't arrived yet"), and I wholly agree with the ban - these contraptions are a serious hazard to pedestrians. They are wide, have a high center of gravity and are very fast. They will also probably be driven by the same heedless people who burn red lights in their SUVs (I see that happen at least twice a week in SF).
"if enough people see the machine, you won't have to convince them to architect cities around it. It'll just happen." ..maybe not about the 'just happening' part (on the small time scale anyway) but certainly on the needing to re-architect cities. The Segway is too slow for the road and too fast for the sidewalk, so the Segway Lane is the obvious answer. I fear they'll put this lane right next to the moving sidewalks, though.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
How soon until some Yuppie in Sf gets himself killed and some bleeding hart here wants to spray paint a out line of a man on a segway on the street.The only reason the segway was banned in SF was so the SFPD could write tickets for that too.I guess parking ticket and catching people smoking in bars (Yes the SFPD does walk around on Geary blvd and look for people smoking inside of bars) I would really like the SFPD to go after crime but the cops have decided that either it's too dangerous or the moneys better in tickets
However, that's no excuse for banning them in bike lanes, which San Francisco has lots of. It's pure snobbery, as near as I can tell, though probably triggered by Segway's attempt to pre-emptively get states and city councils everywhere to approve driving the things on sidewalks. A segway cranks up to about 12mph, which is a medium speed for a bike on flat ground; YMMV on hills (which SF has lots of), and the acceleration patterns are probably a bit different, and there's no macho factor, unlike cranking your bike from 0-30 in 2 seconds by pointing it downhill on Mason Street.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
There's no reason to involve the police powers of the city to ban the things - people driving in the dark in dark clothes with no helmet won't be in the gene pool for all that long. There are occasionally bikers that stupid, of either the motorized or non-motorized flavors.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
California is a net exporter of federal taxes, so you had better find some other state to blame for your tax burden. Suggesting that California federal representatives are in favor of sending troops anywhere is absurd, check your newspapers. Finally, it is quite comical to claim that your state should be in control of where its troops are deployed, as the only entity empowered to raise armies in the United States of America is the federal government.
Why can't politicians spend energy on banning H1B's, not Segways. Jerks!
I'm sure hippies who fear change and dislike freedom of choice are a more likely cause of this ban.
San Francisco has lots of bike lanes. The Supes banned Segways on them too. It's mostly snobbery, but apparently the Segway people were trying to get approval to run the things on sidewalks, which is much more dangerous to pedestrians, and it backfired on them.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
The idea that segways should have bike laws applied to them seems to be based on the idea that all wheeled vehicles are created equal. As someone who bikes on city streets a lot (mostly, actually, Oakland and San Francisco), this is not really true.
I bike in the street, and I have no problem with that. Why? Because except when I'm biking up a steep hill I usually am at a speed closer to that of the cars than pedestrians. I usually cruise somewhere between 15 and 20 miles per hour on flats, and about 5 miles slower or faster when going up or down hills.
It's my understanding that the very fastest a segway can to at all is 15 miles per hour, which can be very unsafe on a road where the speed limit is 30. I'd never ride one of these in the streets, and wouldn't think it was too dangerous to ride one on the sidewalk.
In my experience, the closer you are in speed to the other things around you (people or cars or whatever), the safer you are. As a result, I'd put these on the sidwalk. What's needed are rules governing what constitutes reckless segway use, along with ample leeway for a police officer to decide based on their own observation how those laws are applied. As someone else noted, bike enforcement is terrible, and bikers get away with a whole lot of stuff that should never happen, both for the safety of the biker as well as the drivers and pedestrians around them. Tighten up on enforcement of safety rules, and a lot of the problems we see with bikes today and people are worried about with segways in the future won't be as much of an issue.
Narrative
or rolled you down a hill =)
tcpa SUX!!!!
with all the negative comments about how goofy people look riding segues around, I haven't seen
comments about how the design for the HT segue is actually the core of the design for the same company's
advanced wheelchair which rotates to raise the rider to a more elevated height in some positions.
It's possible that the segue is really just supposed to be a promotional device to draw attention from
investors and the media.
maybe
BOTH of them? Damn that's harsh!
I hate that in my shitty college town only one side of the street has a bike lane. I was ticketed twice. Once for riding on the sidewalk with traffic and again for riding against in the bicycle lane. The only time I was hit was when I went with traffic in the car lane.
Bike laws are really made for large cities like LA and NYC. The few people that ride bikes around here can work it out when they meet going opposite directions in the bike lane. I always make eye contact when I ride my bike and notice car drivers never notice me. They cut me off and attach me with car doors. I do love coming across asshole bike riders when I drive a car though. At least I make attempts to ride close to the curb when in the street on my bike. Those pricks who ride three feet into the street should move aside and notice they they are part of a problem.
SF shouldn't have banned the things on bike lanes, though; they'd be just fine there, and no more suicidal than biking in SF's traffic and hills is anyway. Also, as a vertical-standing passenger, you're probably more able to look around for cars and for pedestrians than the average bicyclist, who's at a different angle and probably can't stop as fast or turn as tightly.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
So how do drivers notice pedestrians? Surely drivers must keep one eye on the sidewalk, especially when they are about to turn into one.
I think they should market the Segway in a foriegn country where they are less anal and more likely to accept new technology. Perhaps Japan or something....
that would be dangerous for bicyclists and inconvenient for motorists.
well, invonvenience is the point, frankly. being that its *dangerous* is EXACTLY the point - riding slowly, well marked and lit, stops traffic to bike-speed.
sorry for the inconvenince, but general tax $ goes to subsidize Transporation by Car Infrastructure that some -- like myself -- dont support... we'll use the roads as we see fit aswell.
br.
I ride three feet out into the street because it's safer.
The gutter is often filled with broken glass, rubbish, and other obstacles. If I have to swerve to avoid these it's quite likely I will be swerving right into the path of a passing car.
So I stay out in the open lane, where the road is clean, and where cars can see me easily. The cars either wait behind me, or overtake me. Sometimes people are delayed for about 10 seconds. No doubt that makes their blood boil about "inconsiderate cyclists". People like that need to relax a bit.
And perhaps if I run towards a bullet and hit it, I will stop and the bullet will shoot away at 300 mph. Seriously. You can't just assume M2(Vf2) = 0. Remember to conserve energy too. High school physics 1 can be a dangerous thing with no high school physics 2.
You mean "forii".
I can see bikes being forbidden from sidewalks -- they take up 4-5' of space and don't have a 0 foot stopping distance. On top of that, they're awkward -- they -can- fall over in the event of a near accident. I agree with that.
Walking human beings can stop in 0 feet, and don't typically fall over in an accident. When they do it's not a hazard really.
A runner on the other hand, or a jogger, trodding along at 10-12 mph doesn't have a 0 stopping distance either, but doesn't usually fall over if they try and halt before they hit somebody. The average stride of a good runner at a good clip will be 6 feet. A jogger will be closer to 4 feet, and it'll take 2.5 strides to really halt their momentum.
How does this compare to a Segway? Last I knew the bugger would halt within a foot or two from a 12mph speed and sure as shit not fall down. It seems safer than a jogger to me. Granted, the Segway + Human is going to average 70 lbs more than just the human, but is SF going to ban people that weight 200lbs from jogging above 10mph now?
Looks to me like a knee-jerk reaction, which is surprising coming from SF. Where I'm from (West Michigan) SF is known as a rather "liberal" area open to new ideas.
Oh well, I don't live there, and I have no intention of owning a Segway (Hello BMW motorcycle.. almost there).... so it's of no importance to me.
I just find it funny that a 200lbs 12mph Segway rider could be illegal, when a 200lb 12mph jogger is perfectly safe.
Damn! I can see the future! I knew about this two weeks ago!
Unfortunately, bike trails have turned out to have poor safety records. (Here are some pointers to related research.) The main problem is with intersections: try to figure out how to design a path alongide a road so that right-of-way is always clear, cyclists don't always have to stop (if you ask them to stop at every single driveway and intersection, they're just not going to), stoplight cycle times aren't significantly increased (think what'll happen if you try adding extra light phases for the bikes...), etc., etc. Lots of people have attempted this, in this country and elsewhere. The results are not encouraging.
So the moral is: no, as a cyclist, you really *are* better off riding on the city streets. Research has found this to be safest, it works great (I probably ride a couple thousand miles a year on city streets, and have never had a crash), it's fun once you get the hang of it, it gets you where you want to go extremely quickly.... Don't wait for a special bike ghetto before you start riding. Observe the standard traffic rules and be courteous, and you can ride your bike wherever you want right now.
--Bruce F.
Looks like another keyboard cowboy who thinks he's being a big hotshot when the person they're raging at is hidden from sight. Start posting like the guy you're flaming is in front of you, okay? It might make the world a little better instead of worse.
Go ahead, reply to this.
Ugh... I hate that... I live in over in Oregon, and though I'm not quite sure if its THE LAW, it's at least THE RULE. Bike on road, person on sidewalk, which I've always thought was the most idiotic thing in the world...
Bike Vs. Car: Car wins, even with helmet, Bike Rider probably injured at best. Person driving car thus backs up over his mutilated carcass to finish the job, getting his anger out at the bike going slooowly on the shoulderless (but sidewalk-happy) road making him late for work.
Bike Vs. Person: Bike wins, pedestrian surprised and ticked, but probably okay. Will probably seek revenge, since the idiot on the bike probably did it on purpose.
Soo.... when bikes are on the sidewalks, everybody lives! Regardless of what vehicle I might or might not be in, I'd rather get hit by a bicycle that can probably dodge me a hell of a lot easier (and is almost assuredly looking forward 95% of the time) than half a ton of steel death.
If someone was going 15mph down the sidewalk and endangering pedestrians, I think the better solution would be to use existing endangerment regulations/laws.
I've heard about the segway, read about it, even seen pictures of it. I know lots of people who have money and can't wait to get one. But I've never actually laid eyes on a segway. I think the whole thing is a hoax, like the moon landing. While San Francisco is at it they should ban Oliphants and Multi-headed Hydras. Those could hurt somebody!
Have you been to SF and drive up or down those steep streets? Like the Divasedero ?
the right hight to strike a pedestrians shin just above the ankle. If the pedestrian has their weight on that foot at the time, the momentum of the segway will break their shin bone and make it stick out of the flesh of the leg.
If you want me to demonstrate this on you with a 65 lb sledge hammer which I will swing at 12 mph at your shin, please leave some contact info so I can catch up with you.
Thanks!
Your wallet stays open. Our source remains closed. We are MSFT
now calculate the torque that comes out of the accident, in turn smashing the kneecaps of the M1!
That was one of the best, most entertaining flames I've read in a while. Nice work.
Indeed. Wilford Brimley can be awfully intimidating :-)
Do you even know anything about perl? -- AC Replying to Tom Christiansen post.
Heh.
.
Before the public opposition began, I did a research paper exploring whether Segways belong on SF sidewalks, at
Doubt anyone will see this post, though, 'cause I'm not going to track down my old Slashdot login to do it.
No different then a bike or powered skate board. You are not supposed to ride those on the sidewalk either. They said they are banned from the sidewalk. Does it say anything about being banned from the street? or is that just the authors little spin on saying they are banned from the city as a whole?
"In an area where one city has banned certain types of coffee beans..."
You just make this stuff up as you go don't you?
Well, i can't assume a lot of things in this exercise. For instance momentum won't be conserved due by just these things to the openness system. And this was just one example, albiet a highly unlikely example of what could happen to a person.
I kept the example simple to prove a simple point. Segway + Human collision = bad.
Yes, those SF dot-commers with more money than brains. The awful, evil, totalitarian "tolerant, open-minded" SF stuporvisors won't them ride their overpriced toy on the sidewalks. Boo hoo.
Slowing down 50 MPH vehicle traffic to bike speeds for the benefit of a small fraction of the road uses, is exceptionally rude and disrespectful.
At 10-12mph you're not really jogging so much as sprinting. Your average jogger cannot and does not keep up a pace of a 5-6 minute mile.
I really enjoyed that :)
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Of course, you're only considering gravitational potential energy, not, say, chemical or elastic.
Ammiano also said Segway's campaign rubbed officials the wrong way. "Segway didn't help themselves by hiring very expensive lobbyists," he said. "I think that backfired on them, too."
0 .html?
New Hampshire-based Segway hired lobbying firms but has made no contributions to any public officials or candidates, said Matt Dailida, the company's director of state government affairs.
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,450027616,0
The Segway's campaign with high priced lobbyists rubbed officials the wrong way while the high priced lobbyists from groups that DID contribute to public officials seemed to work just fine... hmmmmm...
"Do not be swept up in the momentum of mediocrity." - anon
A bike is a vehicle. Try and justify it anyway you like, but that fact remains.
So if I weigh 70 pounds, and I can run at 12.5 miles per hour, should I be banned from the sidewalk?
What if I was 200 pounds, and could run at 20 miles per hour.
I saw a cop on one on Santa Monica Blvd.
-- Dr. Eldarion --
Based on what evidence do you make your claim? Shit man, do some research before you let your fingers touch the keyboard.
Drivers notice pedestrians more often because:
- Speed. They are expecting a slow-moving pedestrian, not a bike.
- If they don't see the ped, the ped can often jump out of the way (I've done this a hundred times). A bike has a harder time getting out of the way (Unfortunately, I've done this a few times).
However, pften the driver doesn't notice the pedestrian. Accidents as a car is turning the street corner are one of the most common kind of automobile-pedestrian accident.
Wish I could find the link for you, but the SF Dept. of Transportation and San Francisco Bicycle Coalition did a safety study a few years ago. The conclusion? Bikes get in as many accidents on the sidewalk as they do on the road, and most sidewalk accidents end up being the bicyclist's fault.
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
Snow boards were originally banned on many ski hills but now they are as common as skis. Society takes a little time to adjust to new things and should the Segway become a popular mode of transportation, the restrictions will be lifted.
In California bikes don't have to go on the road, but if they do they have to follow the same rules as cars. Some streets have bike lanes but most don't. You're better off riding on the sidewalk anyway.
"Utilizing magnetic schemas," that is. Your rant is funny as hell in general - and so damn true...
Utilizing magnetic schemata since
WTF is up with the lame comments along the line of "I can't believe they're doing this!" I get exactly what San Francisco city officials are doing... look at this word:
Sidewalk
no no no... go back and look at my emphasis. SideWALK.
The name alone characterizes itself as a separate place for pedestrians to move about a city or town block. The last time I checked, pedestrians != motorists.
I was reading some article on wired and its more about not giving it up to the pathetic politicians.
Since Segway comes with speed governors, it would be just as simple to mandate they be dialed down to their slowest setting until there was more experience with it. When cars were introduced, the same thing happened. Eventually, when people understand the issues, reasonable accomodations can be made.
I'm giving you a standing ovation and and a lighter lit high in my hand..(which makes this hard as hell to type)
I dunno about over there, but here in Australia you pay a hefty amount for registration every year on cars and such which in turn pays for a lot of the infrastructure, while cyclists don't pay a thing and many of them treat the roads as their own. I don't know if your arguement would cut it anywhere else in the world, especially here.
Never fight naked, unless you're in prison...
The CNN article pointed out the problem... The Segway guys "had not made contributions to politicians". That's the way Detriot does it. That's the way the MPAA and the RIAA do it. There's really no excuse for not playing by the rules and buying a politician of your own... what with the cost of a congressperson or senator being the lowest it has been in decades.
RAM5
whadda ya expect from a buncha wimpy pacifist commie hippies anyway.Anything fun must be unfair to the masses and we're all supposed to have equality.So, in a kafka sort of way socialist democrats act as the handicapper general to make us all equal.Soon drivers will have to pay reparations for any animals they may have killed to PETA.Orwellian perspective: two legs good,two wheels Ba-a-a-ad! Y'know the old school punks had it right all along when they said "Hippies are BORING OLD FARTS" now they run 'Ferisco and most legislative districts in Cal.making electricity more expencive for the rest of us,Freedom closer to extinction in the name of sensitivity and Individuality impossible for future generations.HAHAHA they turned out more like their square parents than not and more like Nazis than any moron republican ever came close to.
I SAY IF THEY WONT LET YOU PUT SCOOTERS ON THE SIDWALK,PUT BIG F***ING HARLEY DAVIDSONS ON THE WALK AND ROLL OVER A HIPPIE LESBIAN BUNNYHUGGER AND TAKE CALIFORNIA BACK!
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Fuck you. What if the bike trail doesn't go where I need to go, asshole?
I didn't say the segway was a good idea, we'll have to let the market make that choice. I think they're stupid (as do a lot of others), but it's not my choice.
Maybe some day we'll all be zipping around on retarded scooters, maybe we won't. I don't think we should make premtive laws unless there's a problem.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Has anyone here actually ridden one or is it only city officials and those who designed the product? If these things would reduce traffic in citys ( bus and automobile ) it would far outweigh the saftey concerns. Pollution, dependence on the automobile, etc. Rolleblades are far more dangerouse since there's not much stopping power. Can't afford the Segway or a car? Walk. Its exercise, is rather safe and intuitive and doesn't cause pollution.
This whole debate is pedestrian.
( I've been considering a bumper sticker campaign where we would covertly place "Gas Guzzler" bumper stickers on SUVs wherever they are parked. Hell, forget bumber stickers - paste that shit on their windshield!! )
But back to the topic - Ban the cars and let the Segwey roll - sure it'll be a problem when there are just a few people with them on the street and most every one else is on foot - but when we all have em -- and you could trade in your SUV for like 10 of em! and since we know SUV owners are so civicly minded they would be happy to donate their extra segweii (what's the correct plural form anyway?) Personally I'd love to see Manhattan (where I live) to be closed to private automobiles and have the street filled with segweii
as far as the cold postal carriers - they should build a little shell around the segwey to make it like a Dalek from Dr.Who.
----------
Special Interest Group SIG -- sig^2
Talk is cheap. Supply exceeds demand.
Ok, here's a minor clue: A human cannot achieve a top speed of either 80mph or 23mph without significant effort on their part. Addtionally, it takes more than the average amount of concentration to maintain that speed. I'd submit to you that a Segue can not only reach 12mph in a vastly shorter amount of time, but for a longer duration and with little to no effort (or attention) on the driver's part.
If THAT were's enough, humans are fairly soft and flexible. I'm willing to bet any impact they create with another human at an average running speed will result in bruises and scrapes. A Segway, on the other hand, is fairly sturdy and ridged, weighing not only 60 odd pounds in dry weight, but hauling your butt of, lets say, 150 lbs at 5 mph. I can GUARANTEE you that same accident is going to be A LOT more severe than a person running into another at the same speed and comparable weight. Add in the potential of an idiot piloting this hardened device which can easily hit 12mph and you have a recpeit for disaster if this thing ever becomes affordable.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
I wish they banned bikes from the street, in addition to joggers. When I leave for work at 5am, it's dark out. Most joggers and bicyclists I've actually managed to see at this time (pitch black) are 2 across in the street. It wasn't until I came about 15 feet (or they scramble) that they were even visible. How often does this happen? Daily, unless the temperature is less than 20 degrees.
Luckily, I've never hit a moron jogger or bike rider, but I wouldn't mind accidentally popping a segway idiot that chooses to ride in the street. Hell, I wouldn't mind popping a curb either.
Segways cost $4950. My wife has already banned me from owning one.
Where the hell is the I'll see and then I'll decide? I've seen both sides of the arguments all day long and not one...I'll see what happens and then I'll make a decision. Yeah, there has been a shit load of hype about this thing, but let's at least give it a chance. If only bikes had a chance like this...
-my other sig is your mom
Bullitt (1968)
Genre: Action/Crime/Mystery
Tagline: Steeve McQueen as 'Bullitt'
A Great movie and the reason I have always wanted a hunter-green 289 fastback 1968 Ford Mustang
Actually, it did, but in Berkeley, not SF; the ban is on "politically incorrect coffee".
0 20 703_205.html
Here's one of the articles on it:
http://www.globalexchange.org/economy/coffee/20
-- Terry
I don't want them banned because now I can't sue the geek with too much disposable income when he runs over my toe! OOOWWWW!!!!!!
Slashdot Eds Link Anonymous Posts With Logged Posts
They Are Vermin Feeding On Each Other's Feces.
I Hate \.
At 10-12mph you're not really jogging so much as sprinting. Your average jogger cannot and does not keep up a pace of a 5-6 minute mile.
A 6 minute mile is nowhere near a sprint, and it's not unreasonable to see a fit person doing an 18 minute 3 mile "jog" around the block. It happens, and it's not unreasonable. I picked that pace for a reason. Why ban fit people from the sidewalk?
Yes, 10mph == 6 minute mile.
And..12mph == 5 minute mile.
And..14mph == 4.30 minute mile (4:20 roughtly.. not a sprint)
And..15mph == 60 second quater mile (not a sprint)
And..22.5mph == 10 second 100meters. That's a sprint.
...because if a conservative talked about people that way, he would be "mean spirited" and "full of hate". Instead, in the Bay Area, talking about people this way makes you "socially conscious" and "working for justice", as long as you choose your victims from among the Bay Area's established Perpetrator Classes (you know, members of the "pasty" race, people who earn lots of money, and other such Enemies of The People.)
If instead of targeting someone "pasty" conducting business on a cell phone in an expensive car, you had chosen a Mexican conducting business on a radio from a van, it would have been "hate speech" and a bunch of heroes (a.k.a. "activists") would have put on face paint, beat drums, and waved placards in your face denouncing you as a "hate monger". Fortunately, that term doesn't apply to liberals.
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
Rather than riding on the sidewalk, you should probably take the lane when you're worried about getting doored. Most citys don't allow sidewalk cycling, since bicycles are considered street vehicles. You're allowed to "take the lane" when you need it downtown. Helmets are your friend, of course.
Look out honey, 'cause I'm using technology; Ain't got time to make no apology
The Chinese have been in San Francisco in very large numbers since the nineteenth century. They were here way before there was any such thing as a hippy.
Next you'll be saying the hippies accepted the Mexicans when they "came in". Jeez.
"So, why can't the Segways use the bike lane (or curb area) too? "
One word: SPEED
The segway is too slow. A bike can easily exceed 20mph with just moderate effort.
... to all of the dangers posed by IT; just imagine the imaginitive contributions to the darwin awards.
What, you mean a 12-year-old child running down the sidewalk can inflict as much damage as a Segway? How soon before San Francisco dictates forced castration to eliminate this menace?
that's awesome hahah looks like the segway has redesigned at least one city, if only in a piece of legislation hahahaha
And therein lies your error, blanket statements that refuse to look at the situation are bound to fail. So before you fall back on your old black and white politics, give it a little thought
Certainly it's true that, whatever the law says, people on vehicles with nonzero stopping distances (like bicycles) are better off riding with traffic rather than riding on the sidewalks
Not for the cyclists. I will ride on the footpath in the city, especially on a Friday or Saturday night, when there are a lot of stupid drivers around. I have been hit by eight cars in my life, starting to get a bit sick of it. It hurts a lot more when a car hits a cyclist, than when a cyclist hits a pedestrian. And happens a lot less frequently.
As an employee of an automotive company, I am all too aware of crash test standards in my work. Modern cars are as safe as they are because they are sujected to repeated tests under numerous conditions.
How about an open-to-the-public and televised Segway crash test session with Dean Kamen featured as both a rider and an obstacle. For starters:
Dean Kamen aboard Segway vs. phone pole
Subway Jared aboard Segway vs. stationery Dean Kamen
If the Segway is as safe to pedestrians and riders as Dean Kamen says it is, let him risk his own ass to prove it.
Have you seen my stapler?
Pussy.
I know I would, and the only thing that would gain you from me would be a swift trip to the ER, instead of respect for your environmental concerns.
"We'll need 2000 crickets, 4 cans of Easy Cheese, and the fluid from 18 glowsticks for this plan to work...." - ph0n1c
Sidewalks are very dangerous places to ride unless you're at a granny pace.
theyre not dangerous places to ride if youre not in a city, either.
Personally I'd be very happy to see a multi-hour training course required for "walking in public". It could cover:
And plenty more stuff. Advanced courses could teach "trolley usage in supermarkets", "what to do if you meet someone you know who is going the other way" (hint: don't just stop in the middle of the footpath and block traffic in both directions), and plenty more.
You might think this is all common sense. But common sense is surprisingly uncommon.
Ewen
Certain people have an uncanny way of "changing" things with wheels. Imagine a rice rocket segway:
1. plenty of stickers to make it go faster
2. +2" chrome/alloy wheels
3. bigger exhaust pipe or heatsink, with an amplifier attached
4. larger battery packs
5. lower the chassis
6. various tricks and stickers to enhance total output power by 0.005% - 10%
7. Add turbo turbines
8. Add a double decker fender
9. various stablizers opt for drag race
could be dangerous when these people drag race during day or midnight going at 14mph!!!!!! You can even think about the elderly involved in such events!!! I understand why these cali cities want to ban these.
If they can do all that to a build-yourself KIA or go-cart Echo, why not these?
70 lbs is too light. Take a page from the terrorist supporting suvs. Add mass. Increase collision tolerance.
Kill three birds with one stone (and a few social security bustin' seniors as well):
Add high volt diesel batteries:
more mass/weight
higher voltage
longer runtime
yeah, that's the ticket!
Can we go nuclear with the thing? Add a little plutonium power plant as the ultimate mod? Will Vapochill be able to cool this baby?
That may well be true. I freely admit that I would sooner grind my hands off with a belt sander than spend time in a non-urban environment.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
You know, it might help if you learned what words meant before you use them.
Just a suggestion.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I knew the Segway was faggy, but to be too faggy for the fag capital of the world is saying something.
God spoke to me
Segways seem to share more in common with motorized wheelchairs than they do with bicycles or skateboards.
They appear to have a simiar footprint and speed factor. Whatever laws allow motorized wheelchairs might just have the loophole needed for the segway. Would it be some form of discrimination to claim you must be handicapped in order to use a wheelchair? Who would set the standard? What if the technology in the segway is useful in wheelchair-like devices and is widely adopted? Will the "no segway" laws turn out to be the target of accessibility suits?
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
I don't know about the US, but in most european countries bikes are banned from sideways (unless you push them or it's obviously a toy for childs less than 5yr.). The reasoning makes sense: Anyone riding a vehicle should do so on the roads while anyone on the sidewalk mustn't endager anyone else on said sidewalk (which basically means you should choose a mode of transportation that lets you come to a halt within 3ft and doesn't endanger anyone seriously if you don't (not considering freak accidents)). I wouldn't like to walk on a sidewalk with those segways whizzing past me, would you?
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
What about people who liked the idea of the Segway because it could give them mobility without the downsides of a wheelchair (motorized or not)? These are people who can walk, just not very far. Standing, on the other hand, they can do. A Segway-like device bridges the gap between those who need simple walking assistance (canes or walkers) and those who can't walk (wheelchairs of various sorts). Perhaps this particular implemention has problems, but banning them altogether? What if Segway came back with ones with a max speed of 5 mph. Would that be alright?
Judging from how people drive cars, the segway would be dangerous if used on the sidewalk... I can imagine scores of people being mowed down by a drunk IT rider.
I'd be happy to ride my bike on the street instead of the sidewalk. I don't want to deal with walkers - Unfortunately, 2 things need to change to make this feasible:
1) F***ing drivers need to know that bicycles belong on the road. I have been sworn at more times than I care to count by drivers passing me (or swerving around - see #2).
2) Shoulders. They're good. It's bad for bikers when shoulders don't exist. I don't WANT to ride in the middle of traffic - it's easy for a car to maintain 35mph, but it's hard for me!
In the meantime, I will only ride on the road when the sidewalk is LESS safe (for me or re: pedestrians) or when there's NO sidewalk. (I guess that also makes it less safe..)
Have you read the Moderation Guidelines Addendum?
[i]Many cars can go up to 120mph, but you don't see them being banned from residential streets. Why? Because even though they can go up to 120mph, doesn't mean that people drive them that fast very often.[/i]
Exactly. Here in our plant, I haven't seen anyone going too fast on a Segway except in the middle of a wide open area. People usually travel more slowly with the Segway than the fork lifts usually travel. Since you don't see mass killings with forklifts, the Segway shouldn't be that dangerous. You can stop much more quickly and often have much better vision (versus carrying a load on a forklift) with a Segway. Also, it seems that many slashdot posters assume people are going to pilot a Segway at ridiculous speeds. You don't run in crowds, do you? You slow down when people are in front of you and are walking more slowly than you, don't you? You don't often bump into people when walking, do you? Why would people assume you would normally do all of those things while on a Segway?
Great. you support violence and vigilanteism as a response to a sticker? Why not just put a "BUSH IN '04" sticker on top of it and call it even?
and what about the trip to the ER you'll get when your SUV tips over while making a 35MPH turn because their accountants realized that given the immense profits made on SUVs that its cheaper to settle however many lawsuits that get filed against them rather than to recall and/or redesign all the unsafe SUV's they already sold? I'd think that also a good way to get people pissed off at you, but Americans seem to have a very high tolerance for letting themselves get screwed by large corporations.
Talk is cheap. Supply exceeds demand.
If you're too afraid to ride on the street, either find a route with a bike lane or forget the bike.
Thanks for your constructive critisism. Some of us don't have any other options, being too poor for a car and without decent public transport.
(Yes, it was below 0 yesterday, and if I hadn't found someone willing to give me a ride, I would have biked to the grocery store. Or perhaps found a way to make my food last - it's pretty f***ing cold out there.)
Have you read the Moderation Guidelines Addendum?
It's like cruise control: stupidly easy concept, but some people still didn't get it the first time around. The way things are going, any new invention in the U.S. is a pile of lawsuits waiting to happen. That's why you have to take drastic measures such as this.
Donate background CPU time to fight cancer.
How: he was on the sidewalk in a commercial/shopping zone which I believe is a $100 fine or so. An officer yelled at him to get off his bike. He says he didn't hear the officer. The officer says the cyclist "fled the scene" thus defying the law and resisting arrest -- that inflates the offence and the ticket. He was chased down by bike and motorbike cops and in the end had to pay this $300 fine.
I think of him every time I'm downtown and tempted to steal a bit of sidewalk from the peds :-)
Now, I'm gonna be really P-O'd if it becomes totally legal to drive a Smegway on the sidewalk -- something that weighs more than a bike, is wider and less nimble, and goes about as fast (12 mph on a sidewalk is too fast anyway). I'm gonna be mad as hell if just because someone can afford to drop five grand on their two-wheel toy of choice, they get to endanger peds in a way that (if I did it on my bike) could earn me a very serious fine.
If these things are gonna be legal on sidewalks then bikes, e-bikes, skateboards and mopeds should be too. And then where would the peds walk? Nope, sauce for goose is gander's sauce: if bikes are prohibited on sidewalks then Smegways should be also. None of this "one law for the rich one law for the poor" stuff, thanks.
Too bad it "pisses you off", but that's your problem. It's your own ignorance and "hipocrasy" you should work on. I have a *very* close relative who barely escaped with his life from a situation where the "traditionally privileged" had been promoted as source of everyone's problems often enough that a mob decided that it was time for "justice" (that means violence against the scapegoated minority), yet you think it "causes little harm".
Unlike you, I don't find it any more acceptable for a liberal to spout class warfare vitriol than for a white supremacist to spout racist drivel.
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
The trouble with this is that if they don't ban the things from sidewalks, when (yes when, you know some idiot will manage it at some point) some old granny (or young, yuppy lawyer with nothing better to do)gets hit by one of the things going down the sidewalk. They did exactly what they should have done; they limited the city's liability by banning these motorized vehicles from sidewalks.
I thought the idea of a fat yuppie drinking a triple macchiato, and blabbering on a cell phone while driving one of these was funny enough.
I am a virus, put me in your
> When cars were introduced, the same thing happened.
No, not really. First cars were going rather slow, just because they didn't have the horsepower to go faster. And although they weren't very severe because of the low speeds and very large (compared to a Segway) vehicles involved, there were many, many accidents because there were no rules, no one had a driver's license and no one knew how to avoid the inherent dangers.
after a while, they implemented clever ideas like traffic lights and stuff.
but what do i know, i'm just a model.
> because by law there had to be somebody
:-)
> out in front carrying a lantern on foot.
I once read about a law requiring this only if a woman is driving the car. And, I guess, that it is still in place in one state. Ah, yes, the wonderful US legislation...
but what do i know, i'm just a model.
~A'Ëq'i4d)^'$ÊSÈòB
Agree fully. It does however involve getting a certain amount of experience, agility, fitness and "street smarts" (pun intended) - when you are able to go with the flow and naturally anticipate when cars don't see you etc, it beats everything else for inner city transportation.
ISO certified == THX certified
Does anyone else get the impression that the Segway is turning into the next Macintosh? A techie device with a small but rabid (or enthusiastic, depending on if you're a Machead) following. If we consider walking/biking to be the IBM PC (i.e. choice of the masses) we can dived those users into the majority, who couldn't care less about the Segway, and the minority who just hate it (about as much as Windows users hate the Mac).
Eh.. maybe it's just me.
I've been hit by guys on skateboards (and snowboards - hell I've hit people on a snowboard, yep my fault - I was learning and I was stupid). It's like being hit by somebody running fast. You can't get up to much speed on a board on a sidewalk and boards are pretty maneuverable so any hits are mostly glancing.
Even if you're in a collision, the punk is soft and you're soft. You crump together. They fall over, you fall over. Even a snowboard at 20 mph isn't that bad as long as you don't hit somebody with an edge. Now getting hit by Robbie the Robot at 12 mph (rigid frame, wheels, HARD!) with a passenger is not something I would want to go through. And I can't see a Sedgway weaving through pedestrians with grace.
Aren't the Sedgways supposed to get even faster with new batteries?
I totally can't wait to reenact "Ben Hur" with a bunch of those things, my buddies, and a 24 pack of Pabst Blue Ribbon.
I happened to be last week at the Annual meeting of the Transportation Research Board in Washington DC. There was one session for the Segway. Kamen had an interesting presentation of the subject (he actually arrived to the session on Segway, all the way to the podium): As a medical device inventor et al., he was accustomed to a strict approval process of many years with testing etc. Not the case with Segway! There was no authority willing to take responsibility in advance.
I think there must be something in Segway, because it does not leave people cold: it is suprising why it opposed so fiercly, what are the people afraid of? It is an amazing device. If there is something in it, it will win; if not, it will die. Market will decide.
I've seen some videos of very natural, fluid, and controlled motions of Segway riders which convinced me that Segway is safe in the hands of responsible drivers. This AVI clip is an example. (I copied it from someone else's collection of Segway pictures and videos.)
IMO, a common misconception of the Segway is that the vehicle will turn into an uncontrolled launched projectile, like a skateboard in the event of an accident. While there's no denying that the Segway weight 70 lbs., it's also true that it has onboard logic which acts to immediately slow down the device. A "dead man stop", if you will.
The accelerate/decelerate function is also more directly coupled to the driver -- there's less of a reaction time to initiate braking. You just shift your weight, instead of having to drop your foot to the ground (skateboard), or lifting and wrapping your fingers around braking handle (bike), or stepping on a brake pedal (car).
A running person does not have full and continuous contact with the ground to maneuver him. Of course, he makes up for it by being able to "crab leg" a bit sideways when needed.
..when their children have lung diseases
and theres no way to go out during the day time
due to smog, and deaths on the roads is greater than any other way....then they may just rue the
times when they had the chance to start moving
away from the fossil-fuel burning cars (automobiles)
and their own chance to start defining how the human
population would get around for the next hundred
years
That is equivalent to having no brakes!
The accelleration (decelleration) of brakes typically exceeds the accellation of the engine by a huge factor. Compare the difference in time and distance for your car to accelate to a certain speed, and to brake from that speed to standstill.
BTW, regenerative braking is useless. It is only a marketing topic, not something that is particularly efficient and/or extending the range of the electric vehicle.
I want to see how the stabilizing circuitry of one of these babies handles a pot shot from my home made EMP rifle.
When's open season?
Completely 180 from this simply genius previous comment, I'd like to add my two cents where this counts.
I've had an order placed for an i167 Segway HT since two hours after the launch of them. It should be showing up in March, but not before I attend a day-long training session up in Orlando (or any other major city of my choice). I'm a high school student and plan on using it for pretty much everything. I'm a complete tech geek, and this just compliments the iBrick(err...I mean, iPAQ) and giant Inspiron 8200 which serve as gadgets that are often quite productive.
I don't see where San Francisco comes off in outright banning the HT. I can understand mandatory training or other legislation which still allows all purchasers from Segway LLC to operate their devices as intended. Segway, to the best of my knowledge, plans on instituting the required training for everyone, and those in the Amazon Pre-Order are required to attend 30 days before shipment.
I personally love the whole thing. If anyone has any questions or comments you can reach me at opti6600 @ bellsouth.net . I live in Miami, and I can only hope that our government here has something better to do than to entertain a walking activists group. Did I mention perhaps that I'm a high school student? These legislators need to focus their time on things that count, not things that are as bombproof as the Segway HT.
EEk. That photgraph is pretty damning evidence I agree, I may have to remove debian from my sparc cluster and .. oh wait ...
Urrggghhh whats this?.
I think I will stay right where I am.
Economic Left/Right: -0.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.69
Somebody please send the editors back to school.
Ugh... I hate that... I live in over in Oregon, and though I'm not quite sure if its THE LAW, it's at least THE RULE. Bike on road, person on sidewalk, which I've always thought was the most idiotic thing in the world...
Well at least the law in Portland Oregon is that bikes are allowed to ride on the sidewalk. I can understand it a little given the fact that I do, when there is traffic, ride on the sidewalk. I don't trust the drivers on the one way streets here , I've seen enough ppl driving the wrong way down the MAX Tracks, and after seeing that, I won't trust any driver during rush hour.
You can be replaced by a very small shell script.
Seems like similar reasoning to me.
12 mph, made out of metal, and a head an an half taller than your average person, a Segway runnnig into a pedestrian walking at 3 miles per hour would have a relative velocity of 15 mph and that would hurt.
Try walking into a metal object moving a ZERO mph and tell me this is not a hazard.
I'm not saying Segways move dangerously fast, but I am saying they move quickly enough that comparing their top speed to the speed of other faster moving things doesn't mean a whole lot.
blog
It might help if you learned what words meant before you bitch out the people using them.
"A lot" not being anywhere near "all". Cyclists pay tax, and subsidise the immense amount spent on highways and other infrastructure for motorists. Thus we have the legal and moral right to use roads.
Not to mention paying the police and ambulance services, and medical expenses of those killed or injured by cars. Or the huge cost to the environment and people's health of the poisonous exhaust.
Seem to work pretty well here in the Netherlands. But then, they design the fietspad in from the start, rather than tacking it on somewhere as an afterthought.
Still, Segways would be useless in Amsterdam, as it'd be nicked within 30 seconds of parking it...
the city of Hill Valley, CA has preemptively banned all hooverboards. We know they'll be a thread by 2015 and if we don't take appropriate action in time, we'll be flooded by youth gangs on these dangerous things.
I'm all for protecting the environment, but vandalizing private property (which is exactly what you're doing when putting a sticker on someone else's car) is definitely a good way to get people pissed off at you.
That's easily fixed. How about magnets that say "gas guzzler", and are easily removed without damager to property, but still get your message across?
Wish they would buy this argument, a great many people have tried to make it, but sadly it hasn't worked yet.
Two sentences that explain it all (from Salon).
"Segway didn't help themselves by hiring very expensive lobbyists," he said. "I think that backfired on them, too."
New Hampshire-based Segway hired lobbying firms but has made no contributions to any public officials or candidates, said Matt Dailida, the company's director of state government affairs.
Looks like they paid the wrong people.
I would imagine that other forms of personal transportation are banned on sidewalks in San Francisco. Here in Minneapolis, you aren't supposed to ride your bike or skateboard on the sidewalk, and I think rollerblading is frowned upon too. However, the Segway is legal.
Every once in a while, a police officer gets up the guts to ticket a few bike riders on the U of MN campus, which is usually followed by a lot of outrage in the opinion portions of the campus newspaper.
Anyway, I don't think the Segway should be banned from sidewalks, but I don't think bikes and other ways of getting around should be banned either. But, if those things aren't legal, the Segway shouldn't be either, so I'm really annoyed at the government attitude about it in Minnesota.
New Hampshire-based Segway hired lobbying firms but has made no contributions to any public officials or candidates, said Matt Dailida, the company's director of state government affairs.
Maybe they should have bribed more officials...
It's only got two wheels and it stands up.
Thats cool.
Karma: Bad due to google bombing - Robert Watkins woz 'ere.
yeah, and the Segway Lane could be jointly used by Rollerbladers, who are not fast or agile enough to safely maintain the bike lane (as neither would be Segway users). But at $5k, you might as well get a moped, I'm sad to admit.
hi, I like pancakes -.-- -.-- --..
I spent time in SF, in all truth, I have seen for accidents with motorized wheel chairs. Some very sevier. Yet SF considers them motorized wheelchairs safe for use on sidewalks. Hummm.
about Slashdot: These great stories about towns that pass silly laws to ban things that don't even cause problems, yet.
Sometimes I worry that I'll develop Alzheimer's disease, but no one will notice.
When the Segway Revolution hits (sarcasm? smell it?) then everyone will own one. This position will change because the politicians' constituents will all own one. Frankly, when I saw the Segway I thought "This is it?" I mean, yes it's an engineering feat. It's revolutionary in design and function but it's hardly the "transportation revolution" that it was touted to be. Here we are a couple of years later and I've yet to see one in the wild. The thought that this contraption was going to make us all ditch our cars, our bikes, our Nike's and ride off down a yellow-bricked road singing Judy Garland songs was far more a way for the inventor to extract VC than it was a prediction of the future. Like HDTV, until your local redneck can afford to ride one down to the local Kroger to buy his beer, this will never fly. But even more importantly, not enough people will want one. >
Your end result of 21.583 mph would be absolutely correct, if people were billiard balls.
Ever tried to play pool with spunges?
Not that segways on sidewalks are a good idea: they look about as dangerous as bicicles to me.
And as always, who is driving it has more influence than what it is (and I'm not talking about skill here).
Or think of it this way: in ten years time, what will have more fatalities in the water, boats or roller blades?
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
That the reason for this ban is more socieconomic than safety-concsious. After all, we are talking about SF here.
Apparently, the Segway is too gay even for San Francisco.
-R
This is unsurprising. It's extremely difficult to lobby municipal and county government. Here's why:
* Have to have money to contribute to local party.
* You have to play both sides, Republican and Democrat.
* Grass roots support is good.
Politicians exist to get reelected (not all, but most). If you don't have the cash or the grass roots support, you are going to get the result the Segway people got: shut out of the market. The politicians know that eventually Segway will have to grease the wheels. It's easier and cheaper to hit the Federal Government because you only have to deal with one set of politicians.
-- $G
I think I'd agree with S.F. These things aren't really very suitable for sidewalks. I've ridden one a few times and can contribute two observations:
1. They don't stop very quickly from full speed
2. They can't make tight turns above a certain speed
Compared to a bicycle travelling at the same speed, these things are both harder to stop and less maneuverable. If it's reasonable to ban bikes, I can't see allowing a segway...
A Segway is by definition a vehicle, and just like a bicycle, should be treated as such as be barred from sidewalks.
Not that that seems to stop people from using bicycles on sidewalks, and nor have I yet to see it actually enforced, but technically it is not legal to drive them on a sidewalk (at least anywhere where I've lived).
Since a segway is motorized, the ban is even more understandable.
I think they should be banned! I was on a Disney Cruise. They had opportunites for passengers to ride one for a mere 15 minutes - after about 1 minute of instruction. It took place on the sports deck, an enclosed area, so you figure you could not get into too much trouble. Right. After a few minutes of getting the hang of it I started pushing it. I got it going as fast as I could in the short space then cranked a turn. I was flipped off and the Segway kept going! It finally 'fell' and stopped over 20' away from me! The next guy after me wiped out 3 times doing some turns and such. I would NOT want to get hit bu one of those things. They should NOT be allowed on the sideway.
"If you are on fire you can just stop, drop, and roll. If you fall into Lava you are just dead." - my 5yr old daughter
When cars were introduced, the same thing happened. Eventually, when people understand the issues, reasonable accomodations can be made.
There are no "reasonable accomodations" for cars. They have no speed inhibitors. They can be stolen and driven by anyone too easily. They don't detect if the driver is too young, too drunk, high on drugs etc.
And what is the cost ? The cost is 41,000 American lives each year (US stats). It costs the EU 40,000 lives (EU stats).
That's the equivalent of a Sept 11th every month in the US and every month in Europe ! When is the war against cars going to begin ??
I would be pretty pissed off if I bought one of these, and a few months later they banned them. Better to ban them from the start before they become a problem.
1 - Unless the candidates in the voting were virtually indistinguishable from each other but for this one issue, it is not possible to glean a mandate for this particular issue.
2 - You cannot acribe the proportion of a voting bloc of the council directly to the percentage of people voting for them..
3 - Only voting citizens were counted in electing this council. Whereas you might say they are the only ones who matter since there were other people who could have voted, neither can you say that a blanket 80% of the city support it.
This, (I would assume...) from the smartass that made the original comment? Hi pot...
Yes... I'll make 'smartass comments' whenever religious fanatics rewrite history and think they're above secular law. While I'm at it... I think I'll 'hide behind my rights.' (Another idiotic catch phrase the fundamentalists are rather fond of, particularly in regards to people excercising free speech.)
The difference between Critical Mass and, say, sane people, is that Critical Mass doesn't want to share. They want ONLY bikes on the street.
As far as "follow the rules of the road"...from their "new rider?" site:
"Don't worry about traffic lights and signs (except at the front); we are a super vehicle that sticks together, like a parade."
Sorry, but no.
Issues...such as will my tax money go to pay for new Segway paths even though I don't use one.h -I-don't-have-kids issue...
Similar to the my-property-taxes-go-to-public-schools-even-thoug
Does my community (and do I) benefit because of educated kids? Will I benefit from reduced car congestion with more segways on their paths? Will I have to carry insurance for a segway or in case I hit someone on one?
Heh...it'll come down to a pissing match in the end...with some issue talk on the side.
Que Deus te de em dobro o que me desejas
[May God give you double that which you wish for me]
Oh, THAT's why Britain lost its pre-eminence. I always thought it had something to do with overextending itself to run a world-wide empire and fighting two ruinous world wars. Actually, the problem was that in the automobile's infancy, they didn't embrace it. That's why they had all that rationing in the 1950's. It wasn't because they alone fought Hitler to a standstill before the US got off its butt to help them. San Francisco had better let all those Segway drivers roll down those sidewalks or else the multibillion dollar Segway industry (not to mention genetic technology, robotics, and nanotech) will be developed somewhere less bleeding-heart.
Man, you are flexible. I haven't seen anyone stretch that much since the old Elastic Man cartoons
At the risk of being flamed to death: While I kinda like the idea of the Segway, think about it, how many sidewalks in your city are wide enough to accomodate two segways passing each other in opposite directions? Now factor in room for the pedestrian traffic. Try walking down the sidewalk on Clark Street between Halsted and Diversey in Chicago sometime and imagine having Segways too. There's barely room enough for peds, and as it is you're dodging parking meters. And this is a hugely busy area with tons of shopping and lots of pedestrian traffic.
Basically for these things to work as a routine form of transportation, we'd need to create a Segway lane, either on the sidewalk, or in the street. And since the bicycle lane has barely been implemented, I doubt you're gonna get city governments to pony up the money to rebuild sidewalks, or add lanes in the streets.
Kamen must've had visions of those futuristic cities with wide boulevards and flying cars when he came up with the Segway. It's just not practical. Though we should use this technology for the people who need wheelchairs and the like.
Why wait for WangCo to put out that cheap knock off??? Banned? Since when has banning anything in this country stopped the forward progression of what's dangerous or cool? Exactly my fellow Slashdotians! Take a stand! Do what's best for your personal transportational needs! And with that in mind we bring you the Segway GT! A few tweaks here and a few mods there and you too can have your own GT version of this contraversial ride! 12.5 mph?!? HA! This bad boy hits a mind blowing 42 mph and is guaranteed to make your fellow pedestrians get back up off the concrete and take notice! Segway GT
( I've been considering a bumper sticker campaign where we would covertly place "Gas Guzzler" bumper stickers on SUVs wherever they are parked. Hell, forget bumber stickers - paste that shit on their windshield!! )
If it were *my* SUV, you'd show up in court *still* in a neck brace and pissing blood.
My wife was on a business trip there and got mugged by three guys in broad daylight! Two of them held her down while the other did her nails.
Yeah that high school physics is definitely hard to grasp since you obviously weren't able to do it. Kinetic energy is only conserved in elastic collisions. Is this an elastic collision? Nope. Granted his analysis is flawed but not the way you seem to think.
A question:
How is the argument "ban Segways because people can ride them irresponsibly" different from "ban P2P networks because people can use them infringe on copyrights?"
Quick poll - of those who *have* ridden a Segway, who thinks that they are inherently dangerous and should be banned?
Wow.
I really think I struck a nerve here - I've received 2 threats of violence from this post. Do you guys feel threatened by this idea that much? -- is violence the answer to all your problems? -- or is it that you have enough disposable income to hire a lawyer to sue over a sticker - what damages would you claim? total cost of removal maybe $4.95 for acetone and 10 minutes with a rag !
And you thought your oversized unit, er, vehicle would make you feel more secure - or is it that you don't want to be labelled a "gas guzzler"? well, newsflash - the vehicle itself sends that message!
on second thought -- now I think the way to go is to create a PR campaign where being a "gas guzzler" is spun as something to be proud of -- after all it prooves that you have lots of money to waste and that you hold yourself clearly above those around you -- so, once "gas guzzler" is established as a status symbol I'll simply sell you the bumber sticker (printed on recycled paper natch) and you can put it on yourself. - at $5 a pop I'll soon have enough for a new Segway!!!
xo -- cyberRodent
Talk is cheap. Supply exceeds demand.
Is cowardly passive-aggressive vandalism yours? What did you expect anyway? If the vehicle already gives the message then your sticker is just you being an asshole.
I am no fan of SUVs, but marking someone else's property is juvenile and stupid. All you'll do is piss more people off, and that's just what is needed, isn't it?
If you *really* want to get a sense of what it's like to get banged around by motorized vehicles as a pedestrian, go to the free concert night at the Lawrence Welk theater in Branson!
3.5 mile commute and you need a electric scooter with a gps and other nerd toys. I don't get you. You could do that on a bike and have even more time for _not_ exercising. Hell, you could have more time for eating. 3.5 miles is _jogging_ distance. Or walking distance for that matter.
What were you doing with a car anyways ?
Sounds like a toy and a geek and I don't want to offend you, but, look at what you are saying ? its 3.5 to 4 miles each way. That's nothing.
I do think that you are commendable for having sense to live so close to your work and not creating commute problems to begin with.
do we consider spherical men if we want to take air resistance and friction into account?
This is a tautology.
You must bike pretty slow. If I hit a pedestrian, they'd be hurt pretty bad. They also aren't wearing a helmet (like me), so if they hit the pavment wrong they will die.
That said, I wish it was legal to throw rocks at cars that intentionally risk bumping you.
But to be pedantic, they Segways were pre-banned in San Francisco. What they've done is fail to unban them.
This is not my sandwich.
Magnets will still scratch the paint when removed if there are any dust particles under it. How about you just leave other people's property alone and stop trying to force your morals on them. They might be more inclined to listen to your message if you don't piss them off at the start.
It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit. -- Harry Truman
Nah, I'm too lumpy to roll that fast.
Anyway, as I've said before, it's not available yet. We'll see if they even ship it in volume. Kamen has thus far shown much better aptitude at PR and lobbying than at actually manufacturing the damn thing.
sulli
RTFJ.
Ouch, yes, I can believe it. But has riding on the footpath prevented you from having accidents with cars? It certainly doesn't sound like it.
The conventional wisdom among cyclists is that riding on sidewlkas increases your chance of having a collision with cars, because you put yourself in places where they just don't expect to see you: even the most contentious drivers usually don't scan sidewalks or crosswalks for bicycle-speed traffic before crossing them. And in fact there are studies which confirm that sidewalk cyclists in general have significantly more bike-car crashes than cyclists who ride in the road.
Even if you're skeptical, I'd highly recommend checking out bicycling street smarts or a local bike safety course if there's one available. I know many people (myself included) who've ridden as vehicles for years without incident, so you can certainly afford to try it for a month or two. And after you do, I suspect you won't want to go back. Nevermind the safety advantages, it's just much faster and more convenient.
--Bruce F.
Mate, everybody pays tax (or should). By your logic it is my moral obligation to ride my skateboard in traffic and ride my girfriend's horse down the freeway. After all, I pay tax and those modes of transportation don't contribute to the already hefty cost on the environment. But I own a car, so I also pay EXTRA in my registration to have the right to drive it on the infrastructure built specifically to handle that particular mode of transport. Look, I certainly agree that cars and such are nowhere near the ideal for their heave cost to the environment and health, in fact I ride my bike to work most days (i'm lucky, where I live in Brisbane is riddled with bike tracks) but the bottom line is bikes are dangerous on the roads, bikes don't pay any of the fees set on motorists to use the roads, and pay less than everybody else to use them. If only there was some middle ground for cyclists that wasn't putting themselves at risk on the road and messing up traffic flow, without resorting to riding on the footpath or thte parking lanes. I guess i'm a little biased because, like I said above, where I live you can get anywhere on a bike with only a minimal journey on the streets.
Never fight naked, unless you're in prison...
WHOIS on the obviously bogus-named bookofseg.com:
Organization: phillip torrone 424 second ave west seattle, wa 98119 US Phone: 206-372-2651 Email: phillip@flashenabled.com
I note from a Google search that this is a Tony neighbourhood of Seattle, with one of "Puget Sound area's largest advertising agencies" located at 424 second ave west. So this seems like a hotspot for marketing companies.
And then he goes and leaves his regular advertising site URL unmasked in the header: www.flashenabled.com. Where he outs himself as a bigwig with Fallon Worldwide. And spends a lot of time pimping PocketPC gadgets.
Some of our other clients include; BMW of North America, Citibank, EDS, Gulfstream Aerospace Corp., Holiday Inn, International Truck and Engine Corp., Lee Jeans, Microsoft, Nikon, Nordstrom, Nuveen Investments, PBS, Ralston Purina, Timberland, Timex, and United Airlines.
Come on, it's even written in obviously dumb marketing buzzwords futzed around a bit to look "cool" and "hip" and "with it". The same 206-372-2651 phone number is re-used for the POCKETPCMAGIC.COM website, registered to phillip torrone 627 broadway suite 504 new york, NY 10012. There are other interesting websites operating from this nice Manhattan location.
Da Blog
Well at least the law in Portland Oregon is that bikes are allowed to ride on the sidewalk
:) Whenever I'm driving in downtown Portland, I swear to god that half the time not hitting the bikers is like not opening your door (or hitting) the freaky motercycles in L.A. that can legally go in between cars in traffic (who the hell voted for that one?). Half the bikes don't even seem to look at you-- they seem to be owned by suicidal PSU students who've played one too many games of paperboy. Incidentally, when I'm walking down there, it's not much of an issue...
:) The bike riders just fly off their bikes and land head-first into a tree. Their neck may be broken, but their helmet has saved their brain so that they can be rebuilt into bionic tennis players or something...
Then how come more bikers don't take advtange of that? The bias of the DMV manual?
Just to clarify myself, I don't think that there are NEVER times that a bike should be on the road, but it is still a matter of common sense. If there's a sidewalk there, the road is very likely busy enough that everyone without a safety cage is safer off of it, whether that be on the sidewalk or the bike lane. And no, I really don't know where motorcycles fit in to what I just said, but at least in movies, if you hit a motorcycle, even if the person dies, they fly off with the motorcycle and seem to have the same fate.
You must bike pretty slow. If I hit a pedestrian, they'd be hurt pretty bad. They also aren't wearing a helmet (like me), so if they hit the pavment wrong they will die.
:) But anyhow, where would you ever have an oppertunity to bicycle that fast where you would hit a pedestrian and kill them? Like I said in another reply, I'm not demanding 100% sidewalk usage :), but if you're in a situation where you're better off off of the road (you're in the city, there's no bike lane), why in god's name would you wanna hunch over and pretend you're in the Tour De France...?
:) West side bikers and east side bikers crossing over... Ugh...
My bike got ruined before I moved out of Oregon in '98 (and now I'm back, god help you all). So I don't, anymore.
Most of the bicyclsts that I think would be safer off the road aren't doing it for fun, in the general scheme of things. They're doing it to piss me off. Err, no, but they're usually being doing things like trying to get to work. People dilly-dallying about and riding as fast as they can in front of those public speedometer things and such probably aren't doing it in the city (or at least the "city" parts of the city). And if they are, that's probably the source of my problem.
he definition is here
The closest definition to your is Of or relating to the central government of a federation as distinct from the governments of its member units.
But then that would only be the case if this decision were related to the san-Francisco central government, rather then any of SF's subunits. Since SF has no sub units, it does not apply.
In fact, federal is most often used to contrast the nature of the government described to 'local' governments. I.E federal vs. state. A city government is not a federal government at all. In fact, it's almost the exact opposite.
Besides, its clear from the context that the author meant 'democratic' or something, not 'federal', which is even more ironic since the original Federalists (in US history) were far less democratically inclined then their opponents, the Democratic Republicans.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
It looked like you were saying that cyclists didn't have the right to use roads becasue these were paid for by motorists. That's the part I disagreed with. Who uses roads and how is a much wider question. And of course you can ride a horse on most roads, though probably not freeways.
After many times being threatened by drivers and told to "Get off the road you poofter", I'm a little sensitive on being told I don't have the right to use roads, especially as I'd face an even more violent reaction if I took the only alternative in many places, the footpath.
Why governors? Segways shouldn't go any faster than pedestrians. If they don't go faster than pedestrians then why not just walk? This country is fat enough as it is.
Homelessness, malnutrition, and death
are the result of class war on the poor
in San Francisco. Mocking words
are not class warfare.
The nature of vandalism is to leave victims feeling both helpless and angry; vandals who get caught have to expect to face the brunt of that. If you think they're touchy about their cars, try tagging their homes....
The nature of vandalism is to leave victims feeling both helpless and angry
If this is true then my hypothetical stickering would barely count as vandalism - afterall my intent would to trigger an epiphany or enlightening that we each contribute to the way the world is .. if you act in a way that cultivates a marketplace that comes up with concepts like planned obsolecence and vehicles that are less and less fuel efficent and less and less safe then we end up in a world like the one that is emerging. If this epiphany makes someone angry then they only have themself to be angry at because we are not helpless.
BTW - this is the longest thread I've participated in here - I really enjoyed it all - thanks /. and everyone else
(steps off soapbox)
Talk is cheap. Supply exceeds demand.
Bleeding SUV driving, redneck, hillbilly. Did you find slashdot while looking for cheats for Deer hunter?
OrionRobots.co.uk - Robots From sol
Bleeding SUV driving, redneck, hillbilly. Did you find slashdot while looking for cheats for Deer hunter?
Oddly enough, no. I linked to it from the "U.K. Web Site for Bad Denistry" where you were honored as the 2003 Poster Boy, congrats. You may want to lay off the cough syrup before posting.
My god - an american who knows a comeback which doesnt involve "Yo mama is.."... and hasn't come from a christmas cracker....
Hehe...
OrionRobots.co.uk - Robots From sol
My god - an american who knows a comeback which doesnt involve "Yo mama is.."... and hasn't come from a christmas cracker....
You're not exactly dealing with a chimp here, Chester.
Here in Seattle, I've not seen many folks riding them BUT...the City is using them for their public utility folks to cruise around the city to read meters, check mains/lines, etc. I think it's a very eco-friendly and efficient method for that work. Has anyone else seen other local governments/agencies using the Segway for similar purposes?
--rc
I used "helpless" to refer to having been unable to defend their property or punish the abuser, not influence any larger social issue.
Like spam, intent doesn't change anything. I agree with the underlying message and I still wouldn't shed a tear if you were brutally assaulted while carrying out your scheme. No argument can ever justify defacing someone else's possessions without their consent to express it. And it can only backfire--there is no chance the victim is going to think calmly that you had a point and let your message stand.
Avid Readers, of whom there at least two, will be undoubtedly overjoyed to know that they can read my gripping final comments on this debacle.
Da Blog
Who cares?
of course every bay area resident knows all san francisco sidewalks are just cram packed with millions of delicate pedestrians at every minute of the day. I'm a 23 year old who drives a GMC suburban. Do i pose a greater risk petering down the sidewalk at 10 mph smiling and winking at the po walkin folks as I cruise by in chicness on my segway or brusing down the crowded aveneues cutting and weaving as I search for my dropped phish CD under the floor mat? I hope Tony Ammmiano gets slammed by a Buick next week. The ultimate irony.
Why? Segways are not the same devices as bikes. They are more compact, can be stopped easier, are more maneuverable. Segways are not cars also. So why should they follow the same rules?
Absolutely no logic in your post and still it's Score 4.
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
To get a glimpse of how Segway worshippers think, just follow the above link to the Segway chat forum.
Frankly, it seems some of them have forgotten that not all of us have the spare change rattling around our bank accounts to actually afford one of these gadgets - by the time someone has that amount saved for a mode of transport, it's usually earmarked for a car, which offers a form of transport that can actually carry much more.
Lighter vehicles, such as bikes and scooters tend to be somewhat cheaper...
Destiny is a good thing to accept when it's going your way. When it isn't,
don't call it destiny; call it injustice, treachery, or simple bad luck.
-- Joseph Heller, "God Knows"
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