"Levels" of Computers the Future?

RabidMoose writes "Gamespot has an article up talking about a recent interview with Microsofts's Dean Lester about the future of PC gaming (as well as Xbox 2 tidbits). Basically, they're in contact with the big hardare producers about transitioning to a system of tagging pre-made computers with "levels". He provided a hypothetical example that a PC with a "level 5" designation might have a medium processor speed, amount of RAM, and mid-range video card, while a "level 7" PC might have a faster processor, more RAM, and a higher-end video card."

Comments

Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[erick99]

A level system would be bastardized very quickly. There are so many possible permutations of hardware combinations that it would be difficult to even come up with general levels. You would instantly run into, for example, "Level 5 with the video card of a level 8." or "Level 7 but double the ram," ect., etc. You might also end up with "flavors" of a level such as maybe Dell's idea of a Level 5 ends up better than Compaq's. Once again, as I have often had occasion to say with regards to these type of ideas, we have a solution in search of a problem.

-erick

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[DVDAshot]

Here here. Here's a solution. Why don't we just continue to call it what it is. Why does Microsoft feel the need to try to dumb down everything that has to do the PC.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[mOoZik]

The point of levels would be that people would be able to quickly determine which level would be suitable for their task. If there is a standardized convention, if you will, then levels will be similar across the board and not vary wildly from manufacturer to manufacturer. I think it's a good idea, but tough to implement.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[JoeD]

Not to mention that any present level designation would get dated really quickly. Today's level 7 would only qualify as a level 5 in two years.

Unless, of course, they propose to make the level designation open-ended, which means that in 10 years, level 22 would be the midrange.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[RazzleFrog]

This may be taken as a troll but it really is to compete with Apple. Apple long ago learned that some people just want a machine without having to know every spec.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[ccweigle]

I think an additional problem will be in handling the age factor...
In 2008, I buy a level 6 computer. What is it in 2009? level 4? still level 6, but the top end is now level 12?

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, I would imagine that the levels would become dated very quickly. Like this week's top level would be next week's hunk-of-junk. Unless they kept incrimenting the numbers, and higher is always better.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[TheFlyingGoat]

One way to fix that type of problem would be to base the levels completely off benchmark numbers. It would require a standardized benchmarking program, which I'm sure MS would LOVE to provide.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[flushtwice]

Why does Microsoft feel the need to try to dumb down everything that has to do the PC.

Helloooooo! It's MicroSoft. It's what they've been doing since they started releasing "Windows".

Suffice to say it's a painfully dreadful idea, but they can call it whatever they like. I'll still call mine "home built" and "running Linux".

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[stratjakt]

No, the weakest link in the system would be your rating. If you have a GeForce 6800 GTX or whatever the fastest thing is, and a 1ghz celeron with 128 megs of ram, you have a lower levelled system.

The idea is that Dell and Compaq don't decide the level, MS does.

Personally, I like the idea. Knowing if a game is going to run on your machine is a pain sometimes even for geeks. Hell, look at all that Doom 3 stuff. Runs "great" on a GeForce 3 my fucking ass..

I have a friend who picked up NFS:Hot Pursuit 2 for his kid, for PC. He couldn't get it to run on his older Compaq. The "minimum requirements" might as well be greek to him when it says stuff like "DirectX 7 Capable Video Card". He ended up smashing the machine in frustration and buying an XBox.

Lots of regular folk ditched PC gaming entirely for the same reasons.

I'm all for something that makes PC game buying more sensible and practical for regular folks, increasing the market, and then bringing some developer mindshare back to the table.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[maximilln]

If there is a standardized convention, if you will, then levels will be similar across the board and not vary wildly from manufacturer to manufacturer

Ah yes. I can see it now. Large companies will be able to shift the blame for bad coding to insufficient hardware. In the clamor for overall product quality the politicians will establish a certification system. With hardware certification will come lockin and subsidy similar to automobile or airplane manufacturers.

Say goodbye to modular cards and customizable desktops. You will take what the industry wants to shove down your throat and you will like it.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Carnildo]

I expect hardware speed increases will slow down a lot in the near future. If the fastest consumer PC today is a level 10, and the average PC is a 5, then five years from now, barring a new "killer app", the fastest computer will be around a level 15, but the average computer will still be today's level 5. Most people just don't need the extra power.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[jamescford]

It seems to me that there's an even more obvious problem: what is a "mid-range" system today is probably not going to be one next year, or maybe even in six months. The article doesn't mention this at all, but it seem like it wouldn't have a chance of working unless you expand your rating scale every year, or used ratings like "level 8 - 2004/Sep" (which really undercuts the idea of making things simple, and having an easy time telling how well your computer supports a given game).

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Chess_the_cat]

It's true. Consoles are the same way. Sometimes you want to buy a machine that will just run whatever is out there. If you buy a Gamecube or an iMac you can be pretty sure that whatever you grab off the shelf will run on it. As it stands in the PC market you might overlook a spec or two and then be disappointed in the future because you forgot to check what the standard video card specs were for your machine.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[rsilvergun]

Don't forget, a level 7 PC with cheap components would probably be slower than a level 5 with quality ones. When I upgrade my video card, I didn't feal like spending more that $100 dollars. Anything on the market in that price range sucks these days, so I traked down a GeForce Ti 4200 for $76 bucks off newegg. It's at least twice as fast as anything being marketed today in that price range.

BTW, this is probably redundant by now, but didn't we already do this years ago with that 'multimedia PC' crap? That didn't exactly take off.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[CrankyFool]

Ooh, I think we may be missing the point.

Think about how some cars are sold with option packages: I couldn't get the parking system I wanted ($300) without getting the GPS system I didn't want ($1200).

So maybe the whole thing here is that you _cannot_ have a Level 3 computer with a Level 8 card -- that it's a bundle, and you have to go with an L8 computer if you want an L8 card even if all you want the L8 desig for is just the card, not the CPU.

Add to that some sort of ability to limit in BIOS what you can use ("this is an L3 computer. It may only have video cards that are 33MHz or slower and 32Mb of less of RAM") and you essentially kill modding of the most moddable (is that a word?) platform around! Then, you don't necessarily need to build an 'XBox' to do one thing and a 'PC' to do another and be afraid people will take the XBox and turn it into a computer -- you just sell an L2 (of a certain form factor) that can't be upgraded.

I hope these are just paranoid delusions ...

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Carnildo]

And once you do that, hardware manufacturers start finding ways to game the benchmarks, sort of like ATI's "Quack 3" fiasco a few years back.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Mysticalfruit]

The problem is that you wouldn't be able to add ram or a video card, etc.

The idea is that they'd build a machine abit like a PS2. You'd open it and the ram would either be soldered onto the motherboard or integrated into the CPU along with the video card (and memory), enet, disk controller, etc.

Basically, when you want a new computer, you go out and buy a better model, no upgrading.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[BagOBones]

You haven't been tracking computers for very long have you.

They have been saying its slowing down for the past X years, then BAM a new breakthrough and everything gets faster.

After years of systems going up by 10 or 20 Mhz I purchased my 1.1Ghz system feeling it would last a very long time. Well now there are 4 Ghz systems.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[ZZeta]

I agree, it'll be hard to classify each and every PC so that it'll fit within a Level.

However, I can already feel the basic idea being implemented, mostly among notebooks. Take a Sony Bio: That's a high level PC, even though there are many flavours of the same Model.

I for example own a Toshiba Tecra 8000. My notebook, at the time, was being sold with different hard drive's sizes, memories, etc, but all were sold under the same Model: Tecra 8000.

In a scale of 1-10, probably all Tecra 8000 would have fit under a PC Level 6.

One last comment about this thread: The one thing I still haven't worked out how vendors could implement is the "degradation" of levels: Say I bought a level 9 in 1998, by now it would probably be a level 3. A Pentium II by then was state-of-art, and now is old stuff.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Carnildo]

I would describe the Windows box sitting next to me as a level 6 computer with a level 1 graphics card -- software-only 3D rendering. I would describe its predecessor as a level 3 computer with a level 5 graphics card -- an MX440. By your standard, the older one would be a 3, while the newer one would be a 1.

Guess which one I feel is faster? The "level 1" computer -- I don't use it for 3D work.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

Video cards are really a great example. Did you get the FX or the MX. Is it LE, SE, Pro, or Ultra? 64, 128, or 256? AGP 4x, 8X, or PCI?

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[abandonment]

exactly - more attempts to force upgrades that aren't necessary onto consumers

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Ralph Yarro]

No, the weakest link in the system would be your rating. If you have a GeForce 6800 GTX or whatever the fastest thing is, and a 1ghz celeron with 128 megs of ram, you have a lower levelled system.

That's exactly his point.

So, we have a manufacturer working in the real world with real world cost constraints and real world consumers. He's researched his market and decided he wants a price point of, say, $500. To hit that price he can only produce a level 3 machine. But he wants to SELL them so he can't just sell "a level 3 machine like everyone else's". He can't afford level 4 at this price point but he can sell "level 3 with improved graphics" or "level 3 with double RAM". So that's what he does.

It's the fact that the level is set by the weakest link that means he's going to specify everything else that raises it above that level.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[BeerCat]

Most people just don't need the extra power

That's probably true. Some tasks maybe only need level 3, but the marketing droids have convinced the public that they really need level 7 "at minimum"; better go for a level 9 to be safe, or a level 11 for "future proofing".

It's very similar to the "Landmark" benchmark, where processors were given a notional equivalence to an old 80286. Thus, a 25MHz 386DX was IIRC given a Landmark speed of "57MHz" (ie, a '286 would have to run at that speed to be as fast. It got dropped not long after the 486 came out, as the Landmark speeds were heading into 4 figures, when actual speeds were barely into 3.

This system (if it takes off) will go the same way, when people get fed up being told that they need a "level 250" just to browse the web.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[pavon]

Unless, of course, they propose to make the level designation open-ended, which means that in 10 years, level 22 would be the midrange.

That never stopped Dragonball Z ! I am all for this idea if it brings the turbo button is back! I can see it now: "Behold my computer powering up to super-sayan ... anytime now ... it's getting there ... talk smack at it will go faster ... wait where are you going, it's almost ready ... hey why did the whole city go black".

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Carnildo]

I've been tracking computers for the last four years. In the past year, the performace of computers purchased by the average Joe has not changed much.

I've been the "need for upgrade" feel. My previous computer, which I would describe as a "level 8" when I purchased it, started feeling very slow relative to what I wanted to do after about two and a half years. My current computer, which I would describe as a "level 9" when I purchased it, is still feeling fast enough for most tasks after almost three years.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[0racle]

Because the vast majority of computer users are idiots. What's easier to understand to someone who refuses to learn anything, 'requires a level Level 5 machine' or 'requires a Intel compatible 1.4GHz processor or higher.' Here's a hint-
User:'I have a AMD Athalon 2800, its 2.8GHz but is it Intel compatible?'

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Ralph Yarro]

Of course they'd expand the rating scale every year. We're used to this with megahertz and CD speeds. Half the point of the level rating is to have an ever-increasing number even if actual technological improvement starts slowing down.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Jim_Maryland]

Don't forget to consider what happens when you have a dual processor system. What will be the relative rating of a dual level 3 processor system to a single level 5 processor system?

A user who doesn't care about understanding the component levels will likely buy from a vendor like Dell. Some of these vendors already have a walk through system to help the buyer decide on the system level based on a series of questions to figure out what exactly the end user wants to use the system for.

The "level" system would likely only work for a particular vendor (and not really all that well) and comparison between vendors will still be confusing (namely to the reasons others have already mentioned).

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[emag]

Even if you don't overlook a spec or two, wait a year, and you'll be disappointed. The difference between PCs and consoles/iMacs (at least in this case), is the difference between a diverse group of vendors constantly developing new technologies (revolutionary or evolutionary) vs single vendors who have a complete lock on the platform, keeping it static for years at a time.

So what happens is, developers keep taking advantage of the latest and greatest video/sound/whatever in the PC world, where your equipment quickly becomes obsolete and the PC you got last Christmas has trouble running the games released this week, while developers for console systems and the like have a strictly-defined set of unchanging hardware (until the next replacement comes out), and so of COURSE everything for console Y or an iMac that you grab off the shelf is guaranteed to run....it's all for (arguably) obsolete hardware...

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm...we already have this...Pentium I, Pentium II, Pentium III, Pentium IV...I think you get the drift...but does that make any difference to most people? No, just say Pentium IV is the highest level or best level or whatever and people buy it...this is just adding another level of bureaucracy/complexity for no good reason. It figures that M$ would come up with an idea like this to sucker more people...I can see the marketing dept churning up in full gear..."Yes, you can buy a Standard PC for $600 or go for the Deluxe PC for $800", etc. Simply new spin on a very, very old idea...

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Sigma 7]

You would instantly run into, for example, "Level 5 with the video card of a level 8." or "Level 7 but double the ram," ect., etc

A system that is designed properly won't run into these sort of things. Instead of being a simple bar, the rating system can easily be converted to support variations by both having an absolute minimum component ratings that must be met, and a number of elective ratings (out of a slightly larger group) that also must be met.

Of course, this thing wouldn't really fly as well as it could. It just makes the infinite upgrade cycle a bit more obvious.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[ADRA]

If so, they won't care about the numeric levels any more than they'd care about the detailed specs.

They'll be:

Does it have a monitor?
Does it have internet access?
Does it let me type letters?

They won't be the ones asking if level 5 PC's support playing doom 3 at 1600x1200x32-4xaa-8xans

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Ralph Yarro]

I expect hardware speed increases will slow down a lot in the near future. If the fastest consumer PC today is a level 10, and the average PC is a 5, then five years from now, barring a new "killer app", the fastest computer will be around a level 15, but the average computer will still be today's level 5. Most people just don't need the extra power.

Sorry but that's way out. The less actual technological progress there is the more important it will be to keep ramping up the level numbers. If this year's computers aren't much better than last years then that just means that the requirements for the next level need to be easier to attain.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[GreyPoopon]

Why does Microsoft feel the need to try to dumb down everything that has to do the PC.

Because the average consumer doesn't understand enough to know what they are getting. Think about the research required to pick out a new system. You need to know CPU model and speed (because cycles per second ain't enough); system memory; type and speed, FSB speed; HD interface and speed (including burst and sustained); HD size, speed (burst and sustained), latency, cache; video adapter model, speed and memory size.... I think you get my point. Anyway, just like everybody else, I don't think assigning a generic level system will solve the problem because the levels will change too quickly and a level 7 from one manufacturer will not be the same as a level 7 from another. What would be better is to find some universally agreed upon standard for rating computers in terms of processing power, storage capacity, data transfer speed, video and sound. The system would have to be good enough that systems with the same ratings from different vendors would be VERY close in performance. But this will probably never happen. There are too many variables, and there's at the moment pretty much zero incentive for vendors to provide any easy way to compare their systems with those of their competitors.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[yoder]

It is very Appley. I think they want to try out closed architecture like someone else we know. If Microsquirts wants to simplify things, the easiest way to do so is to narrow their support to a preset list of machines, like Apple.

I think Apple pulled off the closed architecture only because of Steve Jobs, and Gates and Ballmer are no Steve Jobs.

I don't think Microsoft can make it work.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[joeljkp]

No, they're not idiots. They either don't care, have better things to do with their time, or feel overwhelmed by it all. You know, like me and quantum physics. Doesn't mean I'm an idiot, just means that I don't know quantum physics.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

They won't be the ones asking if level 5 PC's support playing doom 3 at 1600x1200x32-4xaa-8xans

Quit it with the suspense. Will it?!

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[YrWrstNtmr]

Most people just don't need the extra power.

They said that when 386's first came out.
"Those are for servers. No one needs that much power at home."

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[giminy]

level 22 would be the midrange.

So if we get past level 50, will that make our computer immortal? It would make it just like a DikuMUD...

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[glass_window]

Ok, so why don't we make some standard point system that can be computated by a simple formula to figure out what level the computer is. Granted, you might find yourself with a level 7.56 computer, but it's the right idea.

For the sake of argument, let's just say a processor is worth 1 point for every 100 megahertz it operates at, ram would be 1 point for every 32 MB, a video card would be a bit more complicated, it might receive 1 point for every 16 MB of ram, points for AGP speeds, output types, different features... sound cards would be easy , based on how many channels they have and maybe bonus ponits for non-worthless features, and the list would go on in that form. The part that gets interesing is whether or not to give points for how good a system looks (and who would judge it?), or a system that comes with a monitor vs. one that doesn't (would you have another system for the monitors?).

If you standardize everything, it makes it a lot easier. Plus you need to leave it open-ended, because ten years from now we probably wouldn't be running a high-end server on a ten, we might have upgraded to a 50.

Software developers would be able to develop based on a number that it had to operate at, and would have to make sure it works with all combinations, so that would be a bit strange (check out my p200 with 1gb ram, brand new GeForce4, 200gb hd, SB platinum)

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Carnildo]

So what do we need the extra power for?

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[fupeg]

That's probably true. Some tasks maybe only need level 3, but the marketing droids have convinced the public that they really need level 7 "at minimum"; better go for a level 9 to be safe, or a level 11 for "future proofing".

Actually, no they haven't, and that's a big problem the industry is focussing on. Most people bought computers around 2000, but a lot haven't since. That's why you see all these heavy handed tactics (especially by Microsoft who makes much of their money off people buying new computers) trying to convince people to upgrade. MS won't patch your IE unless you're on XP. Now they want you to buy a new computer so you can play games. If everybody upgraded every couple of years, then they wouldn't bother with such tactics.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

So what do we need the extra power for?

Windows Longhorn.

Well, you did ask.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[stratjakt]

No, the levels are defined. To be, say, level 4, you need to have DirectX features X,Y,Z in hardware and Q megs of video ram.

So the box sitting next to you is a level 1, end of story.

Guess which one I feel is faster? The "level 1" computer -- I don't use it for 3D work.

Well, considering this whole thing is about GAMES, that computer is a level 1. Guess which one runs Doom 3 faster?

This is about games. I'll say it again. This is about games, and trying to stop the erosion of the PC game market as people just get fed up with all the geekery bullshit and just go buy a PS2 or XBox.

Maybe the submitter missed that. But this has been covered before, and it's all about simplifying the answer to the question "Will this game work on my computer?", because the clerk at Best Buy isn't intelligent enough to answer it correctly.

And "minimum requirements" on the box even if the user is technically versed enough to know what "Hardware T&L is" and whether his computer has it, are still shit.

Make it easier to buy and play PC games, entice the gaming crowd back to the PC, which will entice top tier developers back to the PC.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[WormholeFiend]

I don't see much difference between shopping for a car or shopping for a computer...

With both items, you can go in detailed specifics, you can tweak the performance if you have the know-how, you can buy generic products from big name brands, etc.

I don't think that marketers or whoever is behind that "level" initiative should assume that their customers are dumb/ignorant.

I think it's a given that when someone feels the need to buy something that is complex, that person should research the product beforehand and become educated about it.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[drinkypoo]

Ever hear of MPC? It let "multimedia" designers establish a standard below which their software would not work. However this is horribly misguided (the levels, not MPC) because you'd have to have a new set of levels every year.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

PCs are harder to use than macs. Part of that is the variety of hardware.

Macs are crappier than PC's for games. Part of that is the variety of hardware.

Consoles are better than macs for games. Part of that is the cheap price.

PCs and consoles are good for games, but for different reasons. The games that result are different as well. I don't want one to turn into the other. That would leave me with (even more) redundant hardware!

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[BeerCat]

I am all for this idea if it brings the turbo button is back!

Did anyone ever run their PC without the turbo button "on"? I seem to remember that "on" meant the machine ran at its normal speed, whereas "off" limited the bus speed to the 4.77MHz of the original XT

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[stratjakt]

I hope these are just paranoid delusions ...

They are, this has nothing to do with geeks who know how to put in their own video cards, and everything to do with non-techies not buying a new PC, but an XBox instead because their fed-up with bullshit minimum requirement specs and a crappy game experience on the PC.

Sales of high end PCs are dropping off, people aren't upgrading, they don't need to. The PC is for browsing the web and email, the PS2/XBox is for games.

They need PC Gaming to regain it's strength with the non-geek crowd, because gaming drives a hell of a lot of sales.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[mark-t]

All software you buy off the shelf is written for obsolete hardware unless it happens to be the case that the hardware it's written for isn't even available yet.

Of course, by the time you manage to get your hands on the appropriate hardware, it's guaranteed to already be obsolete anyways, so you'll still never be able to run any off-the-shelf software on anything other than obsolete hardware.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Planesdragon]

Writing / editing a 130,000 page novel or 10+MB RPG supplements with as-I-go spellcheck, with music in the background.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

He's been trying to be Microapple for the past 20 years.

Sorry, Bill, your products aren't as clean, smooth, and simple as Steve's!

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[0racle]

It does if you had something related to quantum physics sitting on your desk, you used it every day, couldn't live without it (e-mail), bought new things for it and yet actively refused to learn even the simplest things about it.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[AvitarX]

What about my level 8 from 3 years ago, what can I do with it?

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Kevitt]

Fine! Then let'em buy an Apple!

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[stratjakt]

That's fine if that's what Dell wants to do. It'd be useless marketting crap like ATi with it's DirectX 9+++++ support.

The key here, is Dell is sort of certifying that games with a "level 3" sticker will run on that machine.

The days of requirements like "DirectX 8 compatible video card with Hardware T&L, 16-bit DirectX compatible sound card, (or my favorite) 2ghz Intel Processor or equivalent" have to end if gaming in the PC is to survive.

Face it, gaming alone practically drives sales of those beefy home computers. People are getting fed up and buying XBoxes instead, and not worrying about the 300mhz P2 they use to get their email.

Drives sales for them, makes the experience of buying games less painless for moms and dads, increases the PC gaming market, which attracts developers. It's win-win-win-win all around as I see it.

If you're a geek with a hardon for specs and benchmarks, you don't buy your PC from Dell anyways so whats the difference?

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Slime-dogg]

As long as places like ASUS, ABIT, MSI, and Chaintech are around, I doubt that this will happen. They seem to take that rebellious attitude in their hardware design: coloring their motherboards, adding bright LED's, using funky fans and heat sinks, and allowing easy overclocking through the bios. Any sort of encouragement by MS to move to a boring All-your-base type of arrangement would be lost on deaf ears to them.

People who build their own machines usually go with these manufacturers as well. If your intention is to buy a pre-built machine, then who cares? When you buy a dell, you aren't buying a dell with the intention of upgrading. Of course, upgrading is a nice option, but your joe-sixpack user would only upgrade if his geeky cousin told him to.

I'm not too worried. It's far easier to build a computer from parts than it is to build a car. There are fewer parts, lighter parts, less mechanical knowledge is required, etc. etc. If you want this part and that part, but can't find the package, it's not hard to build it yourself. Now, buying a base-package car and installing your own upgrades would be similar, and not as difficult, but some people don't want to spend the two or three hours to do so.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[NanoGator]

"Why does Microsoft feel the need to try to dumb down everything that has to do the PC."

Have you gone shopping for a game lately? I've been out of touch about video card specs lately, now it's like "uhh... well I hope it works."

There's a difference between 'dumbing down' and 'making things easier'.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[walt-sjc]

The past year? you are basing future predictions many years out based on what has happened in a 12 month period? Your entire "tracking" period of 4 years suggest that you are quite young, so I'll give you a break.

If you look back at CPU history, you see incremental improvements, then a big jump, more incrementals, a big jump, etc. As new chip technologies develop, this enables new designs in CPU's that allow for faster clock speeds, wider busses, more cache, etc. The next generation of CPU's will be multi-core. The Sun Niagara chip for example is a multi-core / multi-threaded per core design that allows up to 32 threads And has a crypto accelerator. Intel and AMD are working on similar technologies.

Look at the new G5 compared to the G4 of just a couple years ago... Massive speed boost.

Keep your pant's on. The next jump is comming soon in the Intel line too.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Elsebet]

We had the worst hard drive in our group last night! It wouldn't read, or write, and was flaky overall. I died and lost a DIMM before we kicked him out, but it took an hour to get a new one. After that though it was back to rockin' XP.

(intentionally omitted the interspersed L0lz ROFL wtf omg ^_^)

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[mattdm]

It does if you had something related to quantum physics sitting on your desk, you used it every day, couldn't live without it (e-mail), bought new things for it and yet actively refused to learn even the simplest things about it.

I dunno. I'm pretty attached to my CD player -- I use it every day, and despite mp3s, I buy new things for it. And yet, I really don't know all that much about the quantum mechanical effect that makes the laser work. It just generally does, and if it doesn't, I'll shrug and either get someone else to look at it or buy a new one.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[DAldredge]

Easy, they will copyright the naming system then charge companies who use it.

It will be another revenue source.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I suppose it could be good to make it easier. The explaination makes sense for people that don't care about the particulars of a computer, they just want to play a game, and knowing one number is easier than tracking your CPU speed, type, RAM, video card type, video memory. It would not account much for hard drive space though, which could become an issue. MS could be pretty specific in level specification, one wouldn't know until they sending it out.

The thing is, wasn't there a PC-year spec? PC99 specified a certain set of characteristics in a computer, ones that were better PC98?

This only seems to work well with consumer desktops, as servers and workstations need to be configured to the particular task at hand whether it be storage, IO or compute intensive, not Office 2010 and Duke Nukem Forever.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Silverlancer]

Plus, cost won't even work for this--for around 1000 I can get an Athlon 64 3200+, 1GB of RAM, a DVD-RW/CR-RW combo drive, a 74GB Raptor, and a GeForce 6800, all in a nice case with a 480 watt quality Tagan.

However, Dell will want to sell you for the same price a computer with a 3Ghz Pentium 4 (slower), 512MB of RAM (less), a Radeon X300SE (5-6 times slower than the 6800), an 80GB crap HD, etc, for the same price, and also call it whatever level the first one was.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[kin_korn_karn]

Welcome to the automobile industry. The amount of time and money is a lot different but direct parallels can be drawn. Autos were toys for hobbyists at first and then everybody wanted one and they became 'dumbed down' and hobbyists resented it.

Can you rebuild your own transmission? That's the auto equivalent of rolling a kernel, or maybe fixing driver corruption in Windows without a complete reinstall (aka chucking a car and getting a new one) Do you want to get out and crank your engine manually to start it? No? Well, then thank the person that bitched about it in 1912 or whenever it was that they got rid of that. Just like some people don't want to spend their evenings running virus scanners and debugging the alpha source for the latest foozle on sf.net.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[gosand]

This may be taken as a troll but it really is to compete with Apple. Apple long ago learned that some people just want a machine without having to know every spec.

And this is not a troll either, but another big reason that Apple has succeeded is that it "just works". Microsoft has a looooooong way to go to get to that status.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[jgrahn]

So if we get past level 50, will that make our computer immortal? It would make it just like a DikuMUD...

No. If we get past level 50, that means we should start looking for the vibrating square.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[AvitarX]

I always thought it was for the multiplyer.

so you 66 Mhz would drop to 33

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Johnny5000]

"If you buy a Gamecube or an iMac you can be pretty sure that whatever you grab off the shelf will run on it."

And if someone is too clueless to be able to handle a real computer, they should go ahead and get one of those.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

Agree! I think the only thing you need to know about the computer you need/want is which color (or is it flavor?) that is should be!

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Trurl's Machine]

It does if you had something related to quantum physics sitting on your desk, you used it every day, couldn't live without it (e-mail), bought new things for it and yet actively refused to learn even the simplest things about it.

Everything around you has something related to quantum physics, you use it every day, definitely couldn't live without it (the whole chemistry in a nutshell is just a specific case of quantum physics, so you actively use quantum physics whenever you breathe). It's neither possible nor desirable to think of _everything_ on an expert level. Sometimes a very basic knowledge (I know this is a personal computer, when I click on this icon I can access my email) is simply enough to live and work.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[naarok]

Another problem is that either a level 5 today is a level 3 next year so the box will say "needs a level 5 (2004) PC" and you'd need a conversion chart or within 2-3 years, the game will say "this game needs a level 32 PC", and the year after "this game needs a level 40 PC". It will just get silly.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[nile_list]

Microsoft feels the need to dumb down everything that has to do with the PC because consumers want it dumbed down. I mean, how many times have you heard people in Best Buy or Circuit City as if a computer model is "fast enough for Word." Anyway, this probably won't solve anything. Just like how people will buy a model because "2.4ghz" is higher than "2.0ghz," people will be duped into buying higher models. I guess it could work if there was a description of each level.. "Level 1 - Web browsing, notepad." etc..

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Johnny5000]

"Can you rebuild your own transmission? That's the auto equivalent of rolling a kernel, or maybe fixing driver corruption in Windows without a complete reinstall (aka chucking a car and getting a new one)"

To stick with the car analogy, I'd say it's more like buying a car without any idea of how to drive it, and refusing to learn how.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[naarok]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Apple does not "just work". If a person is used to Windows and Unix, moving to an Apple (even OS X) is a frustrating experience. Nothing just works. You have to re-learn everything about the GUI metaphor.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[ZB Mowrey]

...and you essentially kill modding of the most moddable (is that a word?)...

You're looking for 'modifiable'. Of course, no one owns the IP rights to American English, so you're free to improvise without worrying about Copyright or Patent infringement.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

Ugh. I read that as "clean, smooth, and supple."

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[theguru]

Quit spreading FUD. MS has not said they won't patch IE for non XP users. Don't beleive everything you read on the frontpage of Slashdot. What they have said is, they will not be releasing the enhancements that XP SP2 added to IE for non XP OS's. Security patches and hotfixes for IE will continue to be produced for non XP systems.

Now, I have to get back to work on my level -3 laptop...

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[gobbo]

so of COURSE everything for console Y or an iMac that you grab off the shelf is guaranteed to run....it's all for (arguably) obsolete hardware...

The iMac's a bad example of that, since the model line is always based on some amount of bleeding edge design. To wit: Gen1 iMac -- 1st mass market USB on mbrd, dispense w/ floppy, no fan; Gen2: tiny tiny case, wacko but highly functional anglepoise display; Gen3: make the computer go away, it's a display with cables and a slot.

On the gen1 iMac, the usb/floppy stuff provided for some compatibility issues until vendors scrambled to get usb peripherals out the door.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

You would instantly run into, for example, "Level 5 with the video card of a level 8." or "Level 7 but double the ram," ect., etc.

I think that Microsoft has in mind that these "options" would not be possible, that the level is the level and that's it, no upgrades, must get new hardware.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[kin_korn_karn]

You can drive a car without knowing how to service it. Most people that drive don't even know how to change their own oil or change a flat.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[cubicleman]

Exactly..I really don't care about the innards of my laptop, beyond that the hard drive is big enough, it's fast enough to run Eclipse/JBoss/Oracle/XDE/etc, enough RAM, and that it boots when I plug it in...it's just a tool, not something I'm interested in knowing all the details about.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[tukkayoot]

So what do we need the extra power for?

GAMES. For what most people do with their PCS, "extra power" just isn't necessary. Five year old computers that were mid range when they were created are sufficient. They may be sluggish sometimes, but it's tolerable.

But if you're a gamer, performance is very important to the whole experience of the game. It's not like waiting for a program to load or encoding an mp3, where patience is all you need to deal with poor performance. In games, bad performance translates into poor frame rates, which can translate into an unplayable game.

Game developers will always find new ways to utilize improvements in PC performance. More detailed models and textures, more animations, better physics, better lighting and particle effects, better AI, ect.

Game developers will continue to push the envelope and as a result, hardware developers will always have a reason to do the same, and there will always be a demand for an improved product. Until the technical limitations imposed by real physics make it infeasible to continue to make significant improvements in PC performance at a price point that is affordable to most gamers.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh? My wife never used OSX until I brought a G5 home. It took her about 30 seconds to "figure out" how to do all the tough things 90% of users do - Use Safari/Firefox, Send Emails, and use Word. The most important part of the UI is clicking icons. Everything the average user needs is right there on the dock. And after switching from PC to Mac a few months ago, everything indeed 'just works.'

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[naarok]

Maybe for an average user. Not for someone trying to develop an app and having to setup sharing across 3 OS's.

I'm willing to accept that for the uses you described, it "just works". It doesn't for all uses. (or in fact most uses I'd want to put it to)

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Fulcrum of Evil]

So what happens is, developers keep taking advantage of the latest and greatest video/sound/whatever in the PC world, where your equipment quickly becomes obsolete and the PC you got last Christmas has trouble running the games released this week, while developers for console systems and the like have a strictly-defined set of unchanging hardware (until the next replacement comes out), and so of COURSE everything for console Y or an iMac that you grab off the shelf is guaranteed to run....it's all for (arguably) obsolete hardware...

You know, it isn't 1985 any more - you can buy the latest 100W monster video card and stuff it in your Mac just fine. Also, a power mac can have an absurd amount of ram. How long until 8GB is considered small?

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

Truly revolutionary! I certainly hope that Dean is adequately compensated for his contribution to the field of Marketin^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HComputer Science.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Carnildo]

You sure about that? At one point, I had my current computer ripping one track from a CD, transcoding a second track, playing a third, compiling KDE, and browsing the web, all at the same time, and the music never skipped.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[quesuerte]

Level's would work for companies who typically purchase 50 to 100 computer at a time. It keeps costs down by purchasing clone machines in bulk and keeps service simple if everyone has the same machine.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[lizrd]

I'm not sure they'd have the same motivation. If the benchmark becomes a way for software vendors to spec requirements for a program to run (This program runs best on machines that score level 3.1415927 or higher with MSBenchmark.Net) it's not in the hardware vendors interest to scam the benchmark. If they do, they'll get a reputation for making hardware that can't run the software it should.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Can you rebuild your own transmission?

We'll find out once I buy those forged pistons, won't we?

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[coopaq]

I dunno. I'm pretty attached to my CD player -- I use it every day, and despite mp3s, I buy new things for it. And yet, I really don't know all that much about the quantum mechanical effect that makes the laser work. It just generally does, and if it doesn't, I'll shrug and either get someone else to look at it or buy a new one.

I have a hammer. I buy nails for it all the time.
I really don't know all that much about the quantum mechanical effect that makes the nails go in the wood.

Please.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[kaligraphic]

And how much knowledge does it take to change a flat?

1: jack up car
2: take off old tire
3: put on new tire
4: let down jack

I mean, that's the equivalent of swapping a CD, basically.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Bequita]

"so you actively use quantum physics whenever you breathe"

(From all those who don't get quantum physics...)

Help me, I'm suffocating!

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Say goodbye to modular cards and customizable desktops. You will take what the industry wants to shove down your throat and you will like it.

Let's see... I can take a 100Hp subaru from 1994 and rip out the drivetrain, put in parts from a STi, crank it up to 600 Hp and drive on down the road. What can't I change on this thing?

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[shawn(at)fsu]

Here one for you say you buy a 10 now in a few years it's at a 5, but would a two year old 5 be the same as a brand new 5?

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Michael Woodhams]

If I were in Microsoft and trying to implement this system, I'd make a utility in the OS that determined the level of your computer. You'd run it, and it would say "This is a level 5 computer". Drill down for details, and you find out you have level 5 RAM, level 6 CPU and level 7 GPU, so you know you can upgrade to a level 6 just by adding RAM.

This would level the playing field between Dell and Compaq: if it says it is a level 5 computer, it is *Microsofts* idea of a level 5.

It would, of course, create a pressure to make hardware that barely qualifies for a particular quality level, and to be optimised for whatever benchmarks MS use for determining level.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Carnildo]

I thought you meant "detailed watching". I've been keeping a casual eye on computer development since the 486 came out.

I don't see multi-core having a major impact, as many tasks don't parallelize well. The same objection applies to multi-threaded cores.

Faster clock speeds may not materialize: in the past year, Intel, IBM, and AMD all had trouble with the switch to the 90nm process -- they can't get the resulting chips to run much faster than their 130nm equivalents -- and they all have serious heat problems.

Wider busses are nice, but they aren't everything. Neither are faster bus speeds. As a rule of thumb, doubling the bus bandwidth yields an overall performance increase of 5%.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[magarity]

You might also end up with "flavors" of a level such as maybe Dell's idea of a Level 5 ends up better than Compaq's

Not only that but what about when new tech comes out? All the manufacturers get close, but not exactly, to the same release dates. So when Dell starts selling the new level 5 when Compaq is still selling off inventory of the prior level 5, how's the consumer to know? Model years, ala the auto industry, won't do since tech doesn't move in nice annual strides. So the only thing I can think of is to increment the numbers indefinitely. So in 30 years the three model levels might be 1245, 1246, and 1247. Obviously, not such a great idea because manufacturer X will bloat the numbers to get a jump on the competition. Who will buy a Dell model 1247 when Compaq releases practically the same thing labeled as a 1248?

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Michael Woodhams]

Of course they'd make the level designation open-ended. There's nothing wrong with having level 22's in 10 years.

Otherwise you have to come up with some really nifty technology so that the packaging on a game that says 'needs level 7 computer' will change after 2 years of sitting on a shelf to say 'needs level 5 computer'.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with this. Also, it might not simply be because you don't KNOW how to fix it, but because you don't want to waste time with it. For example, i've spent the last week (i should really have been studying instead) of trying to find what the hell is wrong when SeaTools is reporting NTFS errors on all three harddrives.

There are simply too many things to consider as the cause. It's much smoother to just let a repairman fix it. (i don't want to do that however, so i'll sacrifice some of my own time)

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Carnildo]

it's not in the hardware vendors interest to scam the benchmark.

It isn't? Let's say Doom 3 lists a level 10 graphics card as a requirement, and the best card my company can build is a level 9. Doom 3 will run on my hardware, just slightly slower than on a level 10 card. If I do nothing, I lose a lot of business to someone who can make a level 10 card. If I game the benchmark and make a slightly sub-par level 10 card, I can compete with the other manufacturers -- and odds are, they're also gaming the benchmark to lower their production costs.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[cubicleman]

It requires knowing how to use a jack and a lug wrench, along with knowing where those tools are stored... I'm sure many drivers don't know where they are or how to operate them...not to mention it's a dirty job.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Inebrius]

"The point of levels would be that people would be able to quickly determine which level would be suitable for their task. If there is a standardized convention, if you will, then levels will be similar across the board and not vary wildly from manufacturer to manufacturer. I think it's a good idea, but tough to implement."

I think it is a bad idea because programs rarely have uniform requirements that fit a "level". Some programs require a lot of graphics power, but not so much CPU power. Others are the opposite.

The result will be programs will have to overstate the true requirements which would exclude more of their market.

The only way I could see this working is with a separate "level" for the CPU/motherboard/memory separate from the video card.

And then you would still have to specify disk space and other hardware limitations.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[maokh]

Not to mention the specifications for a "Level 6" PC would change every 4 months. I'd need a pile full of slide rules to figure out the CPU speed of a box built in Jan 2004 vs. August 2004.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[leamas]

Oh for gods sake you dont need to "know" how to use a jack or a lug wrench. It would anyone with 1/3 of a brain about 2 minutes to figure it out.

A jack, or a spanner, or a lug wrench isnt something you "operate", you just use it.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

And if someone is too clueless to be able to handle a real computer, they should go ahead and get one of those

You think it might be just a tad easier to mass-market OEM Linux systems if the customer had some clue to what they could reasonably expect out of the box?

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[ZB Mowrey]

Oh, you mean like this year's game that says "Requires a Pentium >1.2ghz, 256MB RAM, 4GB HD Space", when next year's game says "Requires a Pentium > 2.4ghz, 512MB RAM, 8GB HD"???

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[nomel]

Some standard system wide benchmark, with numeric ratings in video, memory, and computation should work. That way, the specs would always increase and the whole MHz war would end. If the video rating was double another computer, you could expect around double fps. Same with computation and memory speed. All the marketing hype would end. But of course, none of the manufacturers want that...marketing is what sells. Otherwise, they have to actually make good products.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[naarok]

Exactly. Point is, this will not serve to simplify anything. It is simply trading one set of meaningless (for the average user) terms to another set of terms that are just as meaningless (but may make the average user feel better about themselves)

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[jlaxson]

Have to relearn _Everything_?

Let's take a look at that:
Keyboard, mouse. A keyboard is a keyboard. If you want to use a one-button mouse, fine. If you want to use a two button mouse, that will work natively as well. Even a scroll-wheel will work out of the box, with no drivers.

Menu bars. Nope, Macs have menus, too. In fact, as I write this on IE (at work) 50% of the menus are the same ones that are there on my PowerBook at home (File, Edit, Help). Outlook has the same similarity. And Microsoft Office, I'm sure, has even bigger similarities.

Windows. Macs have these too. ('nuff said)

Quick launch and task bar. In the same spot on a Mac.

System tray. Also on a Mac, but in the menu bar instead.

Folders, files, extensions, icons. Yep, also there.

So... I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "re-learn everything about the GUI metaphor."

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[rgmoore]

You need to know CPU model and speed (because cycles per second ain't enough); system memory; type and speed, FSB speed; HD interface and speed (including burst and sustained); HD size, speed (burst and sustained), latency, cache; video adapter model, speed and memory size.... I think you get my point.

And I think that you miss an important point. You mention that the GHz speed of the processor isn't enough to know its true speed. The same is obviously true of the video card, possibly the memory, etc. In order to establish a level system, you'll need to devise some kind of translation of these factors into a single number. That process is deeply problematic.

Take the issue of processor speed, for instance. You have two choices for deciding the level of a given processor; you can make a reasonable guess based on its stats, or you can set up some kind of a benchmark. Guessing is obviously going to suffer from all kinds of problems with subjectivity, so the most likely answer it to create some kind of benchmark. But creating the benchmark is going to be subject to all kinds of pressure from processor manufacturers. Intel will want to set up the benchmark in a way that favors their processors over AMD's, and AMD will want to do the reverse. Once the benchmark is settled on, manufacturers will start designing processors to the benchmark rather than to real world standards, and it will be very hard to avoid this problem by changing the benchmarkings because that would screw up the levels of existing systems. Now multiply this by every different component and you're sure to have a mess.

On top of the benchmarks for the individual components, you're likely to have systems integration issues. Each level will have a minimum standard for each component, but deciding on those standards will be another issue. Each component maker will want to bias the standards to emphasize their component, so that processor manufacturers will want a higher ratio of processor power to memory size than memory makers will. Even if the standards are set by a supposedly neutral third party, like a coalition of complete system retailers (i.e. Dell, IBM, etc) that group will be subject to pressure from the interested parties.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Artifakt]

Please don't write a 130,000 page novel. Ever. My wife works at a bookstore, and she promises all her coworkers will find you and do... Well, just trust me, you'll sleep better not knowing... If you write anything that weighs more than the last Harry Potter is expected to weigh. By the way, what kind of music do you listen to while writing? (So she can have it declared dead). Thanks.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[ADRA]

Knowledge Base article 666

Upgrading your 2004-level5 personal computer to support the 2004-level5+1 booster pack

Only purchase 2004-level5+1 booster pack from a certified Microsoft outlet. Make sure your computer has the appropriate assurance level purchase for it. 2004-level5+1 requires assurance level 7 or higher.

Issue:
If you fail to meet these requirements, the installation of 2004-level5+1 will instantly cause a blue-screen-of-licensing indicating that "The assurance level supplied is invalid. Please visit licensing dot microsoft dot com to purchase appropriate licenses".

Solutions:

Pay Us!

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Luigi30]

All of this will make you shit yourself, which requires Level 3 Toilets, and if you don't, Level 2 Toilet Paper to clean up.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[AndyChrist]

And if you didn't do that, you'd have to add on levels, which means you'd have marketers all trying to say "our machine is level 12!" "well, ours is level 14!" even if there's no damn difference.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[brandorf]

I don't know, those freebie jacks that come with your spare tend to be a bit complex compared to a garage jack. Also the owner would need to know where the safe spots to use the jack are, or risk damaging a side panel. Also, don't most cars have the security lugnuts these days?

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Moofie]

Well, duh. For any developer, NO computer "just works". As a matter of fact, for the overwhelming majority of developers, it NEVER works, period.

I don't know what you're trying to argue. Programming is difficult.

Having said that, people who are familiar with Apple's dev tools seem to like them an awful lot.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[sparcnut]

Let's see... I can take a 100Hp subaru from 1994 and rip out the drivetrain, put in parts from a STi, crank it up to 600 Hp and drive on down the road. What can't I change on this thing?

Your analogy is kind of flawed, because that's roughly equivalent to ripping out the entire guts of a PC - motherboard, CPU, RAM, disks, expansion cards, everything - and building a new one inside the old case.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[severoon]

I don't get it. We have levels right now...we just don't call them "levels".

What's the point of adding another "level" of indirection in this process? Also, it's possible that you'll get manufacturers that try to exploit the interference between components. I have a crap processor and motherboard, so it should be in a level 3, but I've doubled the RAM and hard disk size expected for a level 3 machine, so it's actually a level 5 now. But run it up against any other level 5 machine, and it sucks.

Of course, we could solve this problem by creating a telephone book-sized standard that declares the minimum requirements necessary for each level. They'll have to settle on something that will flow along with time...the minimum requirements for a level 5 will change on a month-to-month basis. And then as people become dependent on this mindless system, and we get unethical manufacturers falsely advertising the levels of their hardware, we'll have to get Congress to start passing laws forbidding that kind of thing.

Actually, I'm starting to change my mind on this levels thing. If we work it right, we could snarl up major corporations and the government to the tune of billions of dollars and years of effort. Maybe if we distract them with this, they won't have time to keep messing up the important stuff in life.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Cecil]

I switched to OS X 10.2 from Linux, and aside from Finder (which was replaced in 10.3) and mounting Windows SMB-shared drives (which I replaced with using scp instead), I was as happy as a clam.

Besides, the terminal application gives you access to the NetBSD core underneath. If you know UNIX, isn't anything else just gravy? Perhaps the transition from Windows is more painful. I don't know. All OS changes are painful in my opinion.

Oh, and also, if you think OS X isn't very good for someone trying to develop an app, you obviously never tried very hard. AppleScript, Project Builder, XCode, Interface Builder, and the hordes of other stuff included in the developer tools (not to mention all your standard UNIX tools like gcc, cvs, svn, autotools, ant, etc, which all of the GUI tools are generally based on) make a developer's life dreamy.

If you want to dive into the GUI, Mac-specific world of coding, then yes it is a whole different paradigm of developing, it takes some getting used to. But it's worth it. If you don't, there's always the UNIX (commandline or X11) way.

Sorry if I come across like a zealot, but those are my honest feelings as a fellow developer.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[hunterx11]

Every time you hit a nail with a hammer, Schrödinger kills a kitten...

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[nelsonal]

We would occasionally sneak over and turn them off when another student wasn't looking. Or to turn them back on for that burst of power. Oddly enough my current computer is close to needing a turbine for the cooling system.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[mr i want to go home]

Come on - this is a troll really, isn't it?

I often take my powerbook into work when we need an extra photoshop machine or something. It takes about 10 seconds for people to realise all the shiny icons at the bottom of the screen are applications. The fact that they pop up with the name of the app when you mouse-over helps too.

As for being used to unix and moving to OS X - and this is where I know you're trolling - what's the difference between my bash and your bash? Nothing!

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[rgmoore]

To stick with the car analogy, I'd say it's more like buying a car without any idea of how to drive it, and refusing to learn how.

Buying a computer without knowing the processor speed is a lot more like buying a car without knowing the displacement or power of the engine. (Quick! How much power does your car's engine produce? Is that SAE net or gross? Is that measured on a dynamometer or a manufacturer's number, and if the latter is your manufacturer optimistic or conservative in rating its engines?) Most people don't really know the answer to that question, certainly not at the level of knowing the true output of the engine rather than what the manufacturer tells them.

The reason is that it isn't really important. What people really want to know is whether their car has acceptable pickup and if it will be able to haul or tow the amount of stuff that they usually want to carry. Of course, that's why car manufacturers try to provide people with performance numbers, like 0-60 time and maximum towing capacity, as well as raw horsepower. It's not unreasonable for computer users to want similar performance reviews instead of context-free numbers. Knowing that a computer can run normal office software and older games but will have trouble with video editing and Doom 3 is much more useful than being told it has an AthlonXP1700 and a GeForce 2, just as knowing that a truck will go 0-60 in 9.3 seconds and can tow up to 2500 pounds is more useful than knowing that it has 250 horsepower.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Your analogy is kind of flawed, because that's roughly equivalent to ripping out the entire guts of a PC - motherboard, CPU, RAM, disks, expansion cards, everything - and building a new one inside the old case.

Well, I can also do it in pieces if I like. Or I could put a 5.0 mustance motor in a miata.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[drsmithy]

To wit: Gen1 iMac -- 1st mass market USB on mbrd, dispense w/ floppy, no fan; [...]

I've got a Dell Dimension here dating from mid 1997 (and a motherboard out the back that's even older) with onboard USB that disagrees with you.

On the gen1 iMac, the usb/floppy stuff provided for some compatibility issues until vendors scrambled to get usb peripherals out the door.

Actually it was a typical example of Apple doing a half-arsed job and smokescreening it with an "Innovation!" sticker. Had they been *serious* about "innovation" they would have included a CDRW drive as standard instead of selling a machine that didn't even give the user a way to get data off it without third-party services and products.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[timeOday]

One thing is for sure, nothing increases exponentially forever. Advances in aerospace were amazing from the 1930s (biplanes) through the 1960s (U2 spyplane, man on the moon). Then, BAM, it leveled right off.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[cubicleman]

Good point...true, you need to know where the key for the lugs are...(this happened to me once--had to root around in the trunk to find it). Usually the little bottle jack that comes with a car uses the lug wrench as the crank. The owner's manual will indicate where the jacking points are... I've changed my own tires before, but if I were to have a flat in incliment weather I might call AAA before doing it myself..

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[red floyd]

But the Eye of Larn is only on level 15!

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[CrackedButter]

he isn't speaking from experience, my gf got her new iMac today (her first mac) and just used it. I call troll.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[cubicleman]

Not to mention the sheer weight of a wheel and tire...most soccer moms (and many guys) don't want to heft around a 18-inch SUV wheel & tire, for example..

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

It took me a google search to even find the terminal on os x. Is that really usability for for apple users call a unix.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Total_Wimp]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Apple does not "just work". If a person is used to Windows and Unix, moving to an Apple (even OS X) is a frustrating experience. Nothing just works. You have to re-learn everything about the GUI metaphor.

You are so right. I wish more people would acknowledge this fact. If you're unsure of what he means here folks then I have a little exercise for you.

1. Go to a Mac and open a web browser.
2. Go to a page with a text for like, say, the Slashdot Post Comment form.
3. Enter a bunch of text.
4. Highlight the text and hit ctrl-C, the widely-used Windows keyboard shortcut for copying text.

What happens to your text? That's right, the copy command basically ends up deleting your text (actually replaced with an unintended symbol) with no copy being made. Your work is gone with no backup.

This is not a flaw in the Mac, it's how they're designed to work, but it's an excellent example of how Macs DONT "just work" if you're used to working with Windows.

This guy is not bashing Macs. He's making a very important observation. Mac lovers need to grow up and realize that just 'cause it's easy for them (they already know about the command key) doesn't mean it's going to be easy for others.

TW

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[dasmegabyte]

To continue the retarded analogy even further: do you know what kind of brakes you car has? Do you know what type of steering box your car has? Do you know how many watts your alternator outputs or what your final drive ratio is on your gearbox?

My guess is, probably not. For the average driver, just knowing whether you got the Sport model or the Luxury model is probably enough. For some, even that's too much. It's specialized knowledge and should not be required.

I should not have to compile a kernel to use a computer. This is bad design. I should have the CHOICE to compile a kernel if I want to...but that's it.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[upsidedown_duck]

Today's level 7 would only qualify as a level 5 in two years.

The solution: model years. Cars, mobile homes, and, now, PCs. Model years just might be the right thing for a maturing industry, as it helps remind people how old their PC is. For example, my computer is a 1997 model (geez, that's almost eight years old). For many people, having a car from 1997 is just fine. Other people need to feel modern and trade in every two years. The same market forces will apply to computers just like every other industry. And, just like the auto industry, the computer industry will always be in business, just not growing exponentially like they were several years ago.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[dasmegabyte]

All this information is covered in the owner's manual in your glove compartment and would only be used in emergencies. You don't need to know it. Anybody with solid reading comprehension skills willing to take their time can fix a flat tire.

If repairing a computer were as straightforward and easily explained as fixing a flat, we'd all be better off. In fact, my PowerBook came with a manual and instructions on how to reinstall the OS if need be. It's laid out with photographs and instructions. That's good design, man.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny, I must have imagined the ethernet port.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, it's pretty clear, but we Apple zealots can't let a bad word sit unanswered...

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[lizrd]

It's the kind of game you can probably get away with now and again, especially at the low end of the market. I don't think that companies would get away with it at the mid to high end of the market. The company that wells a 9 graphics card labeled as a 10 is going to get burned when level 10 games don't run well on my machine, but I can get level 11 games to mostly run on my friend's machine with the competing brand's level 10 card.

In the event that everyone scams the benchmark, at least they'll all be scamming it and I'll still have a point of comparison.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[cubicleman]

And not to mention some SUVs have the spare underneath the rear floor.. exposed to the elements..grubby, heavy, dirty. Ugh. My SUV has it inside the trunk floor, but still, a 17-inch wheel on an SUV tire is heavy...and my commuter car has 18-inch wheels on 255/40R-18 tires..not lightweight at all..

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[dasmegabyte]

What's wrong with that? Make the levels like model years, and bump them up every six months. So today's baseline PC would be, say, a 2002 (corresponding to when its hardware was bleeding edge), and a top of the line model would be a 2004.5.

We software drones then need only say "PCs certified 2001 or better."

The best part is that said rating system could apply retroactively to machines currently in existence. Give people a little program, something like Sandra, that benchmarks the PC and gives it a maximum rating. Upgrading the PC? Cool, just rerun the benchmark.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

Where, where?

You mean "Hear, hear".

Hope that helps. Have a nice day.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[dasmegabyte]

Right. Of course, since this would only apply to new software, it would carry with it new pressure. If your software is working fine on your level 3 PC, you don't have to upgrade. If you need new software, and it requries a level 5, well you're getting a new machine.

It is much easier to understand the need. And it is much easier to GET what you need. Salesmen could still con you into getting the best Level 5 for your money, but it's certainly more understandable than questions like "Will task X be faster if I upgrade my memory, my motherboard, or my processor?"

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

" (Quick! How much power does your car's engine produce? Is that SAE net or gross? Is that measured on a dynamometer or a manufacturer's number, and if the latter is your manufacturer optimistic or conservative in rating its engines?)"

I'd be willing to bet that even most computer geeks / power users dont have that kind of intimate knowledge about their CPU's.

Most geeks / power users, DO know how many mhz/ghz theyre running, as well as cache, just as most car nuts can tell you what HP their engine is rated at (in general terms) as well as their carburetor/injector specs.

I cant get all that detailed about the horsepower of my car, but i do know that its a 2.8 liter engine with electronic fuel injection, front wheel drive, and a 4-speed automatic. Probably more than the average person knows about their car, so that analogy is shot to hell anyway.

on a side note, my mom couldnt tell you if her car is a 4-cyl or 6-cyl (its a 6) neither could she tell you how many mhz her computer runs at (1.3ghz)... But she hasnt let that stop her from learning how to drive safe, or learning how to properly operate a computer.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[dasmegabyte]

Why, all of the really great intuitive processing tasks we've never been able to do because we've been so reliant on disk speed/memory speed/video speed. There's no reason why computers can't better than humans at performing complex sorting, association and identification tasks, except their previously limited speed.

Soon you'll be able to sort your porn by hair colour, breast size and apparent age without doing any of the work yourself. And that, my friend, is the true digital dream.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Rinikusu]

I've used AmigaOS, BeOS (4.x-5.0), Windows (3.1-XP), Linux (starting with RH 5.2, have moved around distros), AIX, Solaris, SunOS, SCO Unixware, VAX/VMS, amongst others. I bought my first Mac this year (an iBook) and found it to "just work" from using my digital camera, my MIDI/audio keyboard, to doing email, browsing the web, and chatting. Even IRC. I'm quite used to Windows and UNIX and I have yet to be frustrated by OS X and haven't had to re-learn anything.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Rinikusu]

*Which* games, though? I spend an inordinate amount of time playing popcap games (well, I used to) and they run rather well on a Palm Pilot. No, the fact is that most games do not need these mega-ultra computers (although it certainly wouldn't hurt). The big "blockbusters" people like to talk about (Doom 3, etc) are only a small (but rather large volume) subset of the entire gaming market. Games can be great and not be 3D, you know...

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I'll have a number 3 with a coke, hold the pickles.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[krunk7]

I bought my first mac this summer. Yeah, I noticed the same thing...I think I deleted some text too now that you mention it.
I believe it took me all of about 10 minutes to figure out that virtually every Ctrl+ combo on a PC is Apple+ on apple. I don't think it took but a couple of days and I was in the full swing of things.

I have some complaints about the mac UI, but really, even the mythical "typical user" with the oft presumed IQ of a nat could transition within a week or so.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[hode]

By settling on a standard such as this, the computer industry would be further commoditized. Hence, brand means nothing, it's all about the level.

What would ultimately happen is whomever could produce the highest level for the cheapest price would win market share. This winner would constantly change to the next cheapest guy in China. Profit margins would shrink even more (and maybe even disappear completely, as is the case with the dvd player market).

While Microsoft would love all computers to be cheaper, there is zero incentive for manufacturers to adopt this practice and surrender any gains they have made with reputation and brand equity. Do you see level ratings on tvs, cars, or beer? No.

However, I would love to see a level rating on operating systems!

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[jshriverWVU]

I dont know how true this is for the general public, but I've never known anyone to have problems switching over. My mom, girlfriend, and other friends who have been using Windows for years only took a couple seconds to do what they needed to on my machine. Heck you can even use a Wintel USB keyboard on a Mac, and the Window's key automaps to Apple key. Try apple(windows)-tab, voila it switches programs. I think the only semi-problem I've seen is program names. So when someone asks where's AIM, I just say use iChat (or even AIM if you download it), Notepad use Text Pad. For my unix friends, load terminal and voila bash script to your hearts delite. Just my $0.02

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[rgmoore]

I'd be willing to bet that even most computer geeks / power users dont have that kind of intimate knowledge about their CPU's.

I would roughly equate knowing an engine's displacement and layout to knowing the cycle speed of a processor; both give you substantial but incomplete information about its power. Horsepower is more like knowing how your computer performs on processor-bound benchmarks (with understanding the limits of the benchmark corresponding to knowing the difference between different ways of measuring horsepower), while 0-60 times are more like a Quake 3 refresh-rate test.

(FWIW, my car has a 1.6 liter, SOHC 16 valve inline-4 with a fairly accurate manufacturer's rating of 117 HP SAE net.)

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[EddWo]

They won't change what the levels mean, they will just introduce new levels. So the best you can get now, P4 3+Ghz, 1Gb Ram will be a level 7 or something, and in a couple of years the best will be a level 10, but your machine will forever be a level 7 so you know if you buy games marked level 6+ it will still run OK.

So long as manufacturers don't skimp on less high profile componants, bus speed etc I think it would make choosing a PC and suitable software easier.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

Given the rate of progress, and moore's law, wouldn't you want to define your levels in terms of an exponential function? I don't know what we'll do as we approach infinity, but that's still a long ways a way so we can leave that headache to a future generation.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Why does Microsoft feel the need to try to dumb down everything that has to do the PC.

Because they want to minimize the consumer perception of the hardware, and thereby maximize the perception of thier software. Then you'll be willing to run the latest version of windows on whomever Microsoft recommends; you'll pay full price for the OS, and they'll only recommend those with whom they can make the best deal. And you won't know the brand of the hardware anymore, and Dell (and HP and IBM) can suck wind.

Maybe that was a rhetorical question, but there you go. What surprises me is how willing Dell et al remain in helping to dig their own grave: Microsoft is really their friend for only as long as Microsoft needs them; so it's in Dell's best interest to cultivate alternatives. IBM gets this, and maybe HP. But Dell is in for a rude surprise when they're dumped for a "Microsoft level 7" brand in the future.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Planesdragon]

True. I have way more power than I need--256 DDR with an AMD 2200 doesn't do the writing job much better than the 128 SDR with a duron 700 that it replaced.

But they both do the job better than the 44 mhz 486 I started out with.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

"To continue the retarded analogy even further: do you know what kind of brakes you car has? Do you know what type of steering box your car has? Do you know how many watts your alternator outputs or what your final drive ratio is on your gearbox?"

Great! Send these people to my service garage so I can charge them what I like for repairs. After all, they know jack about the device in question. How can they possibly question my wisdom?

I do apoligise, but I hate this "but I'm so stupid, I can't help it" attitude that seems to permeate through society today. As far as I'm concerned, willful ignorance and the attendant worship of said ignorance is indicative of the mediocritisation of the polpulation; and it's a worrying trend. A trend that will eventually lead to the metaphorical labotamy of the proletariat, leaving the democratically-obfuscated aristocracy to rule us how in any manner they so wish.

I want to write more but I know it's wasted on Slashdot readers. How any gestalt entity (such as Slashdot) constructed of supposedely smart individuals can alienate themselves to such an extent that the likes of Windows, Gnome, KDE, Macintoshes and the rest of the sorry crowd, can be discussed with a straight face, is quite frankly beyond my understanding.

I'm not a genius by any means, but compared to the vast majority of the people who will read this brilliant monologue, I most emphatically am.

Please don't moderate me. Either donate to the Kerry presidency campaign in lieu of positive moderation, or alternatively donate to the Bush campaign for a similar negative moderation.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Planesdragon]

D'oh!

130k word. Not page. That works out to (roughly) 500 pages. On the higher end of the novel, but not abnormally so.

130,000 pages would be a lifetime's achievement--close to a thousand standard-sized novels.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

Your work is gone with no backup.

Apple-Z to undo.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

Where would you put it? Applications/Utilities seems like a logical place. Are you suggesting it should be in the dock so every newbie gets subjected to the commandline? The dock will get pretty crowded if you throw everything in it.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[10101001 10101001]

The thing is, that the previous analogies have been flawed. When it comes down to it, there's very little in the car's software that every changes. And the actual cars themselves have reached a limitation on their potential power for their perceived worth in large part due to the limitations of humans to drive effectively at high speeds (there's also the physical limitations of steering, alloy properties, and such).

There isn't, however, a limit (as of yet) to the computational power possible in a computer. And it's software (somewhat analogous to the driver) that keeps having higher requirements. Fundamentally, there's no "standard interface" between hardware and software. This is both because no one can agree on what interface is best and because there's nothing fundamentally requiring one interface over another. Writing a compatibility layer between interfaces is at best tedious and at worse so computationally expensive that it's still not a standard feature even *with* the massive increases in computational power (you can possibly also blame this fact on there being one main leader, Microsoft, and hence no real overwhelming need to design a standard interface regardless of possible performance penalties).

Various problems that we do want computers to do at some point are in fact exponential difficult. That means that short of a redesign of computers to somehow scale for such situations (such as neural nets) or there being a great limitation on the data set, computers as we know them have a long way to go before they reach a "satisfactory" level, without a strong need to be upgraded daily.

Yet, amazingly computers have already nearly reached the fully commodity stage. So, continuing the car analogy, entirely inept people can just throw away one broken computer (broken through their ineptitude) for another just like they do with cars. Over the long term, that's far from the economic solution. Assumedly, eventually people will realize that and learn enough to at least service their computer/car. Most people do, at least. So, I say give them time to understand it because people are smart enough to figure out how to advantage themselves.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[C0rinthian]

Hard drive -> Applications -> Utilities -> Terminal

Wow, that really makes no sense.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[merdark]

Hmm. Strange. I moved from Unix to Apple and everything seemed to "just work" for me. I had to learn a few new things... but nothing drastic.

Here is an example of how this "just work".

Say I hook my laptop up to a projector. On a PC, regardless of what OS it runs, I have to hit some key combination, or dig through menus, to get the display working. When I disconnect it, chances are I again have to do some tricky stuff.

Let's do the same thing with my powerbook. I plug in the projector cable and then.... damn. It works. Just like that. No menus, no key combos nothing. It automatically detects the projector and goes dual monitor instantly. Ok.. so let's say I've moved windows to the projector, perhaps a presentation. Now I unplug the projector. But wait! My windows are still on it! No problem. Once again, it "just works". The absence of the projector is detected and all the windows are automatically moved back to the laptop screen and I am no longer in dual screen mode.

This is what people mean by "just works". They do not mean that using the apple key instead of alt, or using the menu bar at the top versus on each window is somehow better. It's the integration that counts.

The GUI metaphor is a totally different story.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[RevAaron]

The first couple revisions of the iMac did indeed have a fan. I'm not sure which revision it was before they lost the fan, but it may have been D? The 400-500 MHz Sage, Ruby and Indigo models.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[DeadScreenSky]

In the clamor for overall product quality the politicians will establish a certification system.

Uhh, no. Just more PC-only gamers will leave for the game consoles, exactly what has been happening for the last three or so years.

Do you honestly think the PC gaming market is big enough to push Congress into doing this kind of stuff, especially in the weakened (and getting weaker...) state it is in now?

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[packeteer]

It gets worse than that. When comparing cards of exactly the same clock frequency card perform differently and it drives me CRAZY. Compare the latest offerings by ATI and NVIDIA. You find two cards with the same clock speed, but one has 8 "pixel pipelines" another 12 and other 16. Ok so in that situation more is better as a card with more pixel pipelines performs better. What about cards that support the new Shader Model 3.0. You would think obviously thats better than a card that support shader model 2.0 but it doesn;t necicarily perform that way. How can ram at 1000 mhz be WAY faster than ram at 700 mhz even when they are on cards with the same chipset. Well you gotta make sure you get the GDDR3 ram.

Its a very confusing market. Honestly the best way to find a good card is to find the one with the longest name and highest specs. But different manufacters get different speeds out of the same specs. Basically the only way to find out whats good is to read a review site. But who has time to compare EVERY compent of a system. When your building a system from scratch you probably only have time to look at the main things. If your building a gamin system concentrate on the video card, things like that. But what if you buy the best video card out there and then dont buy an good enough power supply or motherboard. Your card will run slower if the power supply cant give it enough juice or the motherboard doesn't support your AGP or PCIE mode.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[glimmy]

I agree, were not mac users

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Eric Damron]

And the level 8 video card of today would be the level 5 of tomorrow...

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[tukkayoot]

*Which* games, though? I spend an inordinate amount of time playing popcap games (well, I used to) and they run rather well on a Palm Pilot. No, the fact is that most games do not need these mega-ultra computers (although it certainly wouldn't hurt). The big "blockbusters" people like to talk about (Doom 3, etc) are only a small (but rather large volume) subset of the entire gaming market. Games can be great and not be 3D, you know...

All this is true, but if you are talking 2D games, then performance does become almost a non-issue, and you don't have to concern yourself with any of this.

For other types of games, however, graphics are a significant part of the overall gaming experience. Certainly not the only part, or the most important part, but they're important nonetheless. I look forward to seeing what developers can do with the more powerful hardware that's being released, as do many others. It's a huge portion of the gaming market, and one that nobody who has much to do with the technology of gaming wants to ignore entirely.

Some of my favorite games are 2D.. older NES and SNES titles, older PC games, GBA games, and iSketch. I could play all of these on the $700 machine I built my dad several months ago just fine. But I also greatly enjoy games like Halo, EverQuest and Grand Theft Auto III quite a bit, and though they could all run on my father's machine, (though none of them are cutting edge games graphically anymore), and I'd have to run them with more conservative display settings than I do on my midrange gaming PC... which isn't that great, considering the fact that these games could look even better on my PC if I didn't have to tune back some of the settings for the sake of performance.

I don't personally buy a lot of cutting edge 3D games as soon as they come out, due to the fact that I'm on a budget, and because I don't want to pay full price for a game that I'll have to play with conservative display settings. But that's fine, because eventually the bleeding edge trickles down into a manageable price point, the hardware gets cheaper, the software gets cheaper, and I get to play cooler looking games eventually.

And, on the subject of the "levels" thing, there is a lot of stuff to keep track of if you want to gauge the relative gaming power of a PC... you've got two companies producing multiple CPU models, which are clocked at different speeds... and you have two graphics cards companies essentially doing the same... plus RAM speed/size considerations, ect. Simplifying all of this for the non-enthusiastic who nonetheless enjoys 3D games would be great, but the only ways I could think of to do this would be very messy and possibly quite inaccurate (and therefore, essentially useless.)

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[flynns]

Scarily enough, I can see this happening. I'm a retail sales drone [I know, I know; I'm a USEFUL drone, though.] at RadioShack, and I can see Corporate jumping and down, rubbing their collective hands together in glee at the thought of a system that self-regulates like this.

Imagine Intel's overlocking locks, to the nth degree.
yeah.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a consequence of those poor designs. With poor GUIs you have to learn each procedure as an independent set of actions. With a good GUI it conveys the metaphor better and allows you to learn similar GUIs easily. Thats why all the Mac guys say it is easy to learn a new one.

The Mac actually lets you understand the GUI better.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Lynoise]

Forged pistons in your trans eh? Remind me not to ever ride in your car!

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[wickersty]

You're not getting it. You use it every day and buy new things for it. And let me ask you. Do you know how to turn it on? How to skip songs? How to rewind? How to eject the disc? If so, then you've just met his point. If you use a computer all the time, and buy things for it, you should know how to turn it on, how to launch software, how to CUT AND PASTE for god's sake. If you don't use one, and don't know, then it's the same thing as me not knowing how to fly a plane... I never have, never will, and dont have an interest in it. But I know how to drive my car... and I don't sit there in front of it wondering how to turn it on or open the door.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[rgmoore]

And not to mention some SUVs have the spare underneath the rear floor.. exposed to the elements..grubby, heavy, dirty.

So keep a pair of work gloves in the trunk next to the emergency equipment. They'll also protect your knuckles from getting skinned if your hand slips off the lug wrench, and you can get a usable pair for about $2.

My SUV has it inside the trunk floor, but still, a 17-inch wheel on an SUV tire is heavy...and my commuter car has 18-inch wheels on 255/40R-18 tires..not lightweight at all..

Sounds like one more argument in favor of buying the smallest car that will fit your needs. Not only do they get better gas mileage and fit into smaller parking spaces, they have smaller, easier to change tires. I suppose that alloy wheels- which are designed to keep weight down for completely different reasons- would also help, here.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[skeletonliar]

Sorry buddy, but if you actually follow the procedure you describe the only thing that will happen is the computer will beep at you for trying to enter a command that does nothing.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[cubicleman]

Well, I do carry a pair of gloves.. as I said, I've changed flats myself. I was pointing out why many drivers wouldn't. I have a midsize Jeep SUV (use it to haul my mountain bike, snowboard/ski gear, winter driving, offroading) and a BMW M3 coupe for commuting/fun.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

I suspect that the level system and the current system will be running concurrently. For those who are technically minded, they can still build their computers from scratch and chop and change as they see fit.

But for those who just want a computer without learning all the jargon, they can simply choose a pretagged level computer. They can look at what applications they need the machine for and pick the appropriate level that would run the stuff they need.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[innerweb]

I completely agree. Too bad we can not sue for financial damages like you can when cars blow up. Maybe the producers of software might be more careful about what kind of code they put in the computer.

InnerWeb

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[gobbo]

I agree wholeheartedly, and stand (mostly) corrected.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[violajack]

Of course I ran it with turbo off....the centipede moved too fast and I couldn't catch the bouncing babies with the turbo on....ah, those were the days.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[ppanon]

And of course Windows 2011 will claim to work on a level 7 PC but will be abysmally slow to use on anything less than a level 11 PC.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[suckmysav]

"Your card will run slower if the power supply cant give it enough juice"

Say what? Where I come from if a PSU can't supply enough juice your card will just lock up and/or your entire system will come crashing down in a heap.

Unless that's what you meant by "run slower" that is

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

It's true that Macs don't "just work" in any way at all. It's not just the interface. The "just works" phrase for macs is usually applied to hardware. But that hasn't been the case for me. I have a USB Wireless ethernet adapater that had the Mac logo on the box and claimed to support OS X. It drops the connection within minutes without fail and frequently hard locks the system or sometimes causes a kernel panic(the multi-languagal message telling you how to reboot appears). My printer didn't "just work" either. In fact, I couldn't use it without installing the driver on the CD. Funny, I didn't have to install anything to use it on my Linux box. It did "just work" with my linux box without effort.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[TyrranzzX]

Unless you're a developer wanting to make a software package in 5 minutes using quick-e-make program maker. As processing speed has increased, the quality of programmers has decreased

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[killjoe]

There is a difference between "just works" and "works exactly like windows".

Personally I like the fact that my Mac does not work like windows. I don't like windows that's why I use a mac.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[majid_aldo]

don't steal my sig!

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

That's such a bullshit example though. First MS was using the (IMHO superior) system of shift-insert for paste, etc. Then they realized that people like the Mac system of Command-C for copy, etc. So, since they didn't have a Command key, they moved it to control. Now, you're bitching because Apple doesn't use control-c, when really you should bitch that MS doesn't have a command key. Of course, it doesn't matter anyway, because you're wrong. Control-c does NOTHING to text. The alt/option key + c will insert a funky french cç. Which is actually 5000x more intuitive than pressing alt + series of random ascii codes on a PC.

So, in conclusion, your argument is based on an ignorance of computer history and an incorrect statement that confuses the Alt and Ctrl keys.

Mods, I think you know what to do with the parent post.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[TheLittleJetson]

Maybe for an average user. Not for someone trying to develop an app and having to setup sharing across 3 OS's.

Sharing accross 3 OS's? Use samba, on OS X it's a checkbox. You put the check next to "Windows Sharing" and its enabled. You can tweak the /etc/smb.conf just like you would any unix system. I copied mine from my old linux box and it works just the same. I'm also a software developer, what's so hard about developing in OS X? It's just like any other UNIX. Java IDE's are fine, or you can run Apple's Xcode, or other commercial IDE's, or any Gnome/KDE stuff under X11. Pretty much anything you routinely do on a unix box works under darwin. Still, probably not sufficient for a uber-user such as yourself.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[TheLittleJetson]

I think the difference is, on the mac, everything is pretty much where you expect it. You don't have to dig through a bunch of dialogs and menus, everything's pretty simple -- this is especially true of Apple's first-party apps. Just remembering where to apply certain settings on a windows machine is kind of a chore, a lot of stuff is buried pretty deep. It's not like it takes a mental giant to conquer it, but it's just a nusance you shouldn't have to deal with. Switching over from a pure windows background might be a little confusing... But if you have any unix experience at all, it's a very accomodating move.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[d474]

Why does Microsoft feel the need to try to dumb down everything...

Probably the same reason the Gov't created the Homeland Security Advisory System (Color coded chart). Because Americans don't want to go through the effort of educating themselves on complex subjects, so everything must be overly simplified.

Americans just stop paying attention if it takes longer than 2 sound bites to explain anything. It's the equivalent of information baby food - you don't have to chew and it goes down easily. Good for baby.

As a side note, I prefer the phrase "lazied down" to "dumbed down" because I believe describes the situation better. Although, after a while, laziness does lead to a dumbing eventually.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[I7D]

...presumed IQ of a nat could transition within...
gnat

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[CyberTech]

He's correct.

For a while now, higher end cards have come with secondary power inputs from the PSU. If this line is not connected, or the power on this line is marginal, the card will drop it's core and memory mhz levels to compensate.

See http://www.hardwarezone.com/img/data/articles/2004 /1071/no-power-1.jpg for an example of the warning given when this occurs.

Course, you're correct as well, w/o this feature you just crash :)

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[xmundt]

I suspect that what he MEANS is "get used to not having the system do flaky things, or crash at random intervals". ALthough Lord knows, Macs
are not the best the the world, they ARE pretty stabile these days.
Oh yea...it might mean "learn to single click instead of double click". That could be pretty tough for the PC user...
regards
dave mundt

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[packeteer]

Thats exactly what i meant. When i bought my nvidia 6800 GT recently i first plugged it in with a not good enough power supply just if it would work. Sure enough the cards vcore dropped and it underclocked itself. I plugged in a better power supply and it ran fine at stock but would not overclock well. So i plugged in an antec true power series power supply and it suddenly overclocked more. Its things like that that throw off people buying a new computer might not notice. The second power supply that wouldn;t overclock well was the same wattage as the antec power supply but clean power made the difference. You wouldn't know any of this though unless you spent a lot of time reading about what is the very best manufacterer of each component in a computer. Nobody but people like me (students off for the summer) has time to read stuff like this.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Gumph]

Skeletonliar is bang on the money with this. I work with PCs all day and when I come home to my Imac I sometimes forget that it should be apple + C (or whatever) and hit ctrl + C, I get a beep and think 'damn stupid Windows, I am on a good computer now, press apple instead - doofus') I then hit apple +C and away I go. All this takes about half a second so it is no biggy.

The benefit of a mac is that for pretty much all things it works better than windows (for me anyway), I do the regular things most people want to do, listen to mp3s, surf the web, edit digital stills and video and for my money the mac does it well and easily, I don't have to frig about with arcane device drivers, weird install routines and damn viruses, it is 'easy' to use. OK, it is somewhat lacking on the games front but then that is what a console is for, again these things 'just work' and after piss^H^H^H^Hmessing about with PCs all day, I don't WANT the hassle that comes with them at home.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[essreenim]

You might want to try erecting a level 10 ATX-type power supply!!

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

No manufacturer uses gross horsepower figures anymore... I believe it's considered cheating.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Val314]

well i used a Windows/Linux Desktop for some time and bought an iBook G4 last year. it took at most a day to get used to the new shortcuts.
the missing Windows Start menu was IMO much more problematic

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[macinslak]

The new nVidia cards sense this and clock themselves down.

I think 3dfx had the right idea when they just let you plug it into the wall, these new beasts cost $400 and then want a $80 power supply to run right.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who doesnt understand the specs of a pc, SHOULDNT OWN ONE. let all these muppets own apple macs, i dont care.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[maximilln]

What can't I change on this thing?

Because there are no bolts or screws on an integrated desktop where everything is hard soldered together?

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not take an idea from Max Payne: Issue 3DMark levels for games and SiSoft benchmarks for productivity?

Max payne has smoething like:

Minimum level "some spec" 3DMark2001 score 900
Recommended leve "some other spec" 3DMark score 2000

Just use that.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[maximilln]

Do you honestly think the PC gaming market is big enough to push Congress

The suggestion for levels of computers coming from the world's largest software manufacturer can only men to include a political aspect. It would be naive to think otherwise. It's a long term business plan, not a short term sales gimmick.

1. Establish a level system for computers.
2. Establish a certification system, which includes hardware compatibility specs, for the levels.
3. Begin the process of selecting the ordained hardware suppliers.
4. Using the game consoles as an example, show that production lines producing integrated systems are more profitable.
5. Begin producing more integrated desktops. While integrated desktops have not dominated the market in the past, the combined effect of the level system and the existing technology on the game console production lines will make integrated desktops much more attractive from a corporate finance point of view.
6. Ensure that the marketing and political department lobbies Congress to require all government computer purchase contracts have a minimum level, which only qualifies through the use of a Microsoft approved DRM BIOS and an integrated mobo from a producer who signs contracts only with Microsoft approved hardware vendors.

I understand that the /. crowd likes to debate things in terms of it's merit/flaws over the course of the next 5 minutes but you people really need to start thinking ahead. If a person represents government or any company of more than 20 people, then the only topics which they discuss are topics which are MAJOR BUSINESS PLANS. If you want to really know what's going on, you MUST THINK how the topic will be used over the course of at least 10, if not 20 years.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Forged pistons in your trans eh?

Forged pistons and a turbo in my engine, chunks of metal in my tranny.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[skiman1979]

I tend to agree here. Since Apple is the only manufacturer that makes Mac computers, they can standardize their hardware into each "level." That might not stop the problem of people dropping a bigger hard drive, or more RAM into a Mac, but at least there aren't other companies with their own idea of a "level X" Mac. Ordinary users that want to buy, say, a G5 can buy one, and it will be the same as all the other G5's out there. If you buy a P4 from Dell, it most likely will not be the same as a P4 from HP. (different RAM, HD, video, etc.) "Levels" may not be a bad idea for the average computer user. More technical users always have the ability to customize it to their needs.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[skiman1979]

But why would the minimum requirements for level 5 have to change at all? Assign enough levels to cover the hardware in existence today. Say the highest level is level 5, for example. When new hardware comes out that is far enough past level 5 requirements, make a level 6. That's what happens with software. If you develop ApplicationX 1.0, add features to it, you then have ApplicationX 2.0 (or 1.1, 1.2, whatever, depending on how much you add). You don't reassign version 1.0 to the new specs.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[skiman1979]

Different distros of Linux are the same way. All the distros have icons, windows, some sort of task bar, "start menu" (K menu, Gnome Applications menus, etc.), system tray, clock, files, etc. However, many windows users don't want to use, or don't understand Linux because it is different. The same is true for a Mac. Macs and Linux distros may have the same or similar elements as Windows, but they are often located in different areas. There is a learning curve to move from one platform to another. The same can be said for some Windows versions (3.1 to 98, 98 to XP).

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[gosand]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Apple does not "just work". If a person is used to Windows and Unix, moving to an Apple (even OS X) is a frustrating experience. Nothing just works. You have to re-learn everything about the GUI metaphor.

Well, I am the one who said it, so allow me to respond. I am NOT a Mac person. I am a Linux user, and I know Windows too. After hearing about Mac OS X and the fact that it was unix-like, I stopped into an Apple store in the mall. I was very impressed with the store and all the pretty computers. But I couldn't do a damn thing with them. Just like you said, it was frustrating.

However, when I said it "just works" I mean that they develop their software to work with their hardware, and you don't have 50 aftermarket vendors cutting corners or not following specs. Macs are optimized, which is why they work so well. They aren't for me, but I can recognize that fact.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[krunk7]

...presumed IQ of a nat could transition within... gnat
lmao, nice one. When it comes to spelling, I'm completely retarded.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[dacaldar]

Why does Microsoft feel the need to try to dumb down everything that has to do the PC.

Don't forget their goal to reverse the average joe's conception of whether hardware or software should be worth the big bucks:

Rememeber this Slashdot article?

D

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[kin_korn_karn]

Sure, but have you ever met someone that is aggressively ignorant about PCs? they refuse to learn even though they're more than capable of it and have all the resources with which to do so? I'd venture to guess than 75% of car owners fall into this category regarding their cars, too. Why else do you think that every major auto manufacturer has that asinine roadside assistance where you can call a hotline to get someone to change a flat for you?

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Godboy_g]

A possible solution for this would be to use some sort of benchmarking tool to score the PC. That way no matter what specific hardware config you actually have, There would be a way to score it.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[MrResistor]

Even if it's perfectly reasonable at first, PC hardware is such a fast moving target that they'll have to redefine the standards every 6 months. I guess they could just keep adding levels, but then how would that be functionally different from the processor clock speeds most people go by now?

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[David Rolfe]

The Mac's auto spell checker could have caught the difference between gnat and nat if NAT wasn't in the dictionary. :-)

I love 'spell checking everywhere'... it's one of the things that makes me feel naked when I'm using Windows.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

But in Soviet Russia, kitten kills and does not kill YOU!

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[d34thm0nk3y]

cheerist, for the use he described Windows "just works" too!

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[krunk7]

I'm on a mac, how do I enable that feature for the more obvious mistakes?
(also I use firefox, would it work with firefox?)

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[Anonymous Coward]

So what do we need the extra power for?

Microsoft Word and its animated "helpers"

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[severoon]

I don't really get why this levels thing would be useful if you didn't keep adjusting them to keep the number of levels fixed. The whole point of an idea like this would be to let people know where a machine stands with respect to what's currently available. If you just keep adding levels to the top, then they'll keep constantly changing and no one will know what's what.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[David Rolfe]

I know for certain in Safari (and all 'services capable' cocoa apps) that these steps will work:

Next time you are going to post a message on Slashdot ... and you are typing in the 'comment box' click on Edit -> Spelling -> Check Spelling as You Type. It should stay clicked forever.

... give me a second to download FireFox and I'll see if it does it too ...

Moments later, I've installed FireFox and I've come to find that it doesn't support services in any way... So alas, No spell checking in Firefox or Mozilla. No speaking text or emailing selected text, either. :-\ That's too bad.

Sorry I couldn't help out more. :-\ Maybe there's already a request in bugzilla and it will gain these features soon.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[sumdumass]

How about a standar independent set of synthetic and real mode benchmarks and a performance conformation level to determin the levels. You could add new functions to the benchmarks as technoligy advances and degrade the indevidual componants with respect to thier contribution to the performance levels.

say a level 7 computer scores at least 100 points overal and is considered a high end gaming machine. The processor could be a 7-40 for level 7 and 40 percent of the performance wer ethe video card could be a 7-50 for acounting for 50 percent of the performance. When new cards, processor ect become availible they would have an increased rating untill you can add up a bechmark doubleing the original score. a Processor with a rating of 7-60 and and a video card of 7-90 with ram at 7-40 and a hardrive at 7-20. This would be roughly 200% of the original 100 point and become a level 8 computer. but if it is mixed with older componants like memory that is only 7-20 then it would still be a level 7 system. you could even rate it as paercentage of over the bench mark making it a 7.8 with the lessor memory level.

Of course it would be very dificult to get the bencmarks strait. it would be even harder to get them fair. And of course prices would probably increase because of a standard tesing procedure added to the existing strategy. If we were to get levels thoug, i think this would be the best way to do it.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[sumdumass]

I see what your saying. But thinmk about a floating software level. Games and stuff are going to increase in thier respective burden on system components. What if i bought a level 5 computer 3 years ago, If the curent level needed is a level 5 to play doom, how likely is my level 5 computer going to be able to play it? You would need a way depreciate the ratings so a game or system 3 years old doesn't get confused with a requirement of today.

You could add levels and rate whats curently availible. Lets say the common software requirement today is at level 5 and any level 5 computer shoudl be able to use it. The software would rate Itself as being level 5 compatible or level 5.5 or level 6 (whatever) then when a new level becomes availible like maybe a level 7 computer, you would reasonably be assured that it would play the level 5 software. The oposite would be true. if the software would become a level 7 then the level 5 computer couldn't use it.

I do find this completly useless in the long run. We already have ways to determin this butmost user either don't understand it or arent willing to pay attention to it. All ever one will ever know it they have a dell, or hp or what ever the flavor of the day is. I know someone that bought a custom gateway and after the saleman delivered it all they could tell me was it is a gateway. There was even a number on the front that in no way reflected what was inside it but evedently signified it was a custom build. It actually was a pretty powerful system and could do everythign they wanted but, the point is even after ordering a custom computer they still didn't know what they had. A level system cannot or will not change that. people just don't want to be bothered by it. They buy a car and take it to the service station to get fixed. Who cares what air filter it has, or what sparkplugs or even engine size is in it. They like the test drive and it was at the price they wanted to pay. This isn't represenative of everyone but it is of a good majority of people out there.

Re:Alex, I'll take Level 6 for $200

[severoon]

Yea, I see what you mean. How about the level is attached to the month and year it was assigned? So you have a level 5 May 2004, which is slower than a level 5 October 2004.

I think the whole levels thing is probably a non-starter idea. If you double processor speed but halve the amount of RAM, have you changed the level of a PC? You could obviously do quite a bit of varying these independent aspects of a system without changing its level, but clearly they'd be different PCs used for different purposes. This levels thing just isn't going to work.

so

[TupperTrenine]

How much experience do I need to level up to a Radeon x800?

Re:so

[deathcloset]

you'll need windows XP

Re:so

[oberondarksoul]

Who cares? What I want to know is, what level do we learn Firebolt?

Re:so

[Psionicist]

You'll need *rolls dice* 1500 XP. To fight of drones and marketing people, use my +1 Mace.

Re:so

[ZeroConcept]

Stick to mobs weak to heat and bring a lot of power potions.

Re:so

[Anonymous Coward]

Corp Por

re:so

[ed.han]

to heck with firebolt: what level do i need for the cow level?

ed

Re:so

[Bruce Hollebone]

Yeah, 'cause all the Linux experience in the world won't help you with an ATI card.

Re:so

[jpmkm]

Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt!

Re:so

[Anonymous Coward]

* Whoosh as joke goes over Bruce's head *

The joke exploited the fact XP also stands for "Experience points" in role playing games.

Experience points according to wikipedia

Re:so

[archen]

Do I get a bonus for having an Athlon?

Re:so

[deathcloset]

you get a saving throw against overclocking damage.

Re:so

[kelnos]

you can learn firebolt as soon as you've learned firefox... wait, or was that firebird...? or... um... phoenix?

Re:so

[Nightcat The Otaku]

Nonono.... Thunderbird.

Re:so

[lxs]

How much experience do I need to level up to a Radeon x800?

I believe you need to kill five Nvidia cards and a motherboard to reach that level.

Re:so

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I think that's the penalty if you dual-class at different levels. You probably get Fireball around level 11 PSU if you're still at level 2 Cooling System.

All I know..

[Artie_Effim]

In the futuire MY PC will go to 11.

Re:All I know..

[nitetrain3000]

Damn. You beat me to it.

Re:All I know..

[AbbyNormal]

(We haven't heard this in a while..)

In Soviet Russia, the computer ranks you!

Re:All I know..

[serutan]

My PC is a Level 4, but with Special Abilities bonus it compiles as a Level 6 and gets a +3 saving throw vs Viruses.

Re:All I know..

[happyfrogcow]

yeah, but as time goes on all our computers will approach a level 0.

Re:All I know..

[ThousandStars]

Yeah, well, my Powerbook saves +6 vs viruses, while my Linux box is immune. Unfortunately, the Linux box has really low charisma, even with its +2, LED-encrusted case.

example hardware levels:

[Scythr0x0rs]

level 1 - gets you to the moon level 2 - gets you back level 42 - runs BSD level 65 - runs windows level 66 - runs windows, but crashes are faster level 468 - runs doom 3 with full shadowing (black and white) level 469 - runs doom 3 with full shadowing (color)

Re:example hardware levels:

[Anonymous Coward]

some would say the earth is our moon...

but that would belittle the name of our moon

Re:example hardware levels:

[CyberKnet]

level 5000
runs doom 3 with full shadowing (black and white) above 30fps

Re:example hardware levels:

[BeerCat]

History time (related to the "What OS" poll)

level 1
4k bytes RAM. BASIC written in shorthand:
10 P. "HELLO WORLD"
20 G.10

level 2
16k bytes RAM. BASIC interpreter uses normal text:
10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD"
20 GOTO 10

More info Here

Look!

[Anonymous Coward]

My computer goes up to 11!

(As if guys need one more thing to play "mine is bigger than yours!" with!)

Level 9

[Anonymous Coward]

Level 8 and 9 are DRM free PC's, illegal to all but special people.

Re:Level 9

[Thud457]

I've got eight megabytes of hot ram and my buyer isn't taking calls. I hope I can stay on step ahead of the Turing police!

Levels

[KoopaTroopa]

This computer goes all the way to 11!

Re:Levels

[Heutchy]

Why don't you just make 10 faster?

Re:Levels

[jellomizer]

But it goes to 11.

Remember MPC?

[Fez]

They already tried this before... There was the "Multimedia PC" (MPC) spec that had level 1, 2, 3, etc based on whether or not your PC had a CD-ROM, sound card, graphics capable of 800x600 and so on.

This was back in the days of Windows 3.1, even.

Re:Remember MPC?

[kidlinux]

Heh, my first computer was an MPC. Made by Philips. They actually made PCs.

Anywho.. I still have most of the original components. The only thing that went bad was the hard drive. The system is about 11 years old now.

Re:Remember MPC?

[jandrese]

Yeah, I was going to mention this. It died pretty quickly. The problem was that applications often require certain components to be faster/better (your application may be MMC1, except you needed 8MB of RAM so you were stuck with the MMC3 designation). People who had computers that would run your software (and otherwise generate a sale) were scared away because they only had a 2xCD-ROM (leaving them at the MMC2 level). I think the hardware also changed too fast for the MMC guys to keep up (especially when 3D video cards/games started appearing on the market).

Re:Remember MPC?

[amuro98]

Glad to see I'm not the only one who remembers that silly concept.

It didn't work very well back then. Basically, almost every Pentium system was automatically classed at the highest level, yet that still wasn't a guarantee that some games would work well on a given machine.

MPC, Take Two?

[Serk]

In other words, they're trying to bring the "MPC" standards from the early 90's back?

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/M/MPC.html

Level ONE!

[BWJones]

Well, by God I want a Level ONE computer. Is not that what all geeks will aspire to? On a serious note, this proposal is going to run into some problems with the definition and quantification of just what is "A computer". For instance, we are not far off from having multiple core CPUs on one chip which gives many software vendors massive headaches. Additionally, the concept of clustering (I favor xGrid myself) shows the problem as well. Are you defining a level designation per task? per installation? per "box"? Honestly this smacks of marketing speak that is designed to sell discrete "game" packages and I am inclined to dismiss it as such unless somebody can more clearly define why this is necessary or why this has applicability beyond the gaming market. I suppose that if you could "quantify" the nature of the task in terms of how much "horsepower" or throughput a given computer system is capable of then one could apply it to something other than a game. But the problem is often not CPU limited unless you are dealing with large calculations which occupy big iron many hours to days to weeks and even when working with games you have the problem of perception. One could establish I suppose a lower limit of 30fps on any given resolution and then that will dictate what level of hardware was needed to maintain that frame-rate, but even then there are going to be other issues.....shading......polygon counts.....ray tracing.....etc....etc....etc.....

At any rate, because people should not let games wash over them like the TV does, they should have to work a little bit at it. Giving them options to tweak is important as it does teach some degree of problem solving and process optimization that for many kids at least is important.

Re:Level ONE!

[yasth]

I thought all true geeks aspired to a level 0 computer?

Re:Level ONE!

[jasonmicron]

Only in Bauler's Gate

Re:Level ONE!

[stratjakt]

Honestly this smacks of marketing speak that is designed to sell discrete "game" packages

Uh, that's exactly what it is. They're trying to simplify the process of a non-technical person asking "Will this run on my computer?"

It's not a bad idea. Slashdotters are just knee-jerking because it's MSFT's idea.

Re:Level ONE!

[JesseL]

Slashdotters are bashing this idea because it's dumb. PC performance can't be adequatley summarized by a single number rating. There are far too many different parameters involved and they will all affect the way different programs run differently. One program may require a very fast processor but little RAM and only a medicre video card, another may require a ton of RAM and a good video card with only a mid-range processor. Imagine if Car and Driver decided to rate all the cars they tested on a single scale of 1-10 encompassing acceleration, passenger capacity, towing capacity, handling, cargo space, fuel economy, top speed, and comfort. How's that gonna work for you?

Re:Level ONE!

[linzeal]

Geeks that I know would aspire to a level 0 computer.

Re:Level ONE!

[vettemph]

I got a Level 0.06 to run Damn Small Linux yesterday!! I have a screenshot of it running MC!!!!

Kick me.

Re:Level ONE!

[teamhasnoi]

The Woz is going to come along and grab the 'level 0'.

Just thought I'd warn you.

Signed,
Steve Jobs

countdown to..

[Anonymous Coward]

"But my computer goes to 11..."

Re:countdown to..

[wickedj]

How much more powerful is that? Why not just make 10 more powerful...

Maybe a good idea

[RazzleFrog]

I think this is a pretty good idea. It is a lot better than the current naming scheme or Super Gaming Machine, Ultra Gaming Machine, Ultra-Super gaming machine. I just don't see the vendors going with it. A level 5 machine just doesn't have the zip and screams mediocre.

Levels

[Anonymous Coward]

Level 1...done
Level 2...done
GAME OVER

Benchmarks?

[dykofone]

So, a standard way to rank different hardware combinations based on their performance... Isn't that the whole point of benchmarking?

Not to mention it'll be just as hard to pick a standard for these "levels" as it is to pick a standard for benchmarks.

Already have it

[Neil Blender]

It's called 'new', 'kind of new', and 'old'.

yeah.

[flacco]

all of which, of course, will be indexed against typical windows box configurations, further streamlining and embedding the subconscious windows-centricity of the masses.

funk dat.

Re:yeah.

[Anonymous Coward]

It does say PC Gaming. I know there are a few games out there for Linux but most serious gamers would consider Linux Gaming and oxymoron.

Re:yeah.

[flacco]

It does say PC Gaming. I know there are a few games out there for Linux but most serious gamers would consider Linux Gaming and oxymoron.

i'll have to give you that one. the only game i still play is ET:RTCW, which runs on linux, but it locks my machine up roughly once a day, on the days i do play. after the first reboot, it tends to work ok though.

this is one of my few remaining embarrassments re: linux on the desktop...

It could work for people, too.

[scowling]

Hell, most of us have played games where we're a 19th level Ice Blaster or a 22nd level elf necromancer.

I'm a 6th level editor and a 7th level slacker. It'll cost you more if you want me to switch the two around.

(ObFuturama: "I'm a 10th level vice president!")

Is it just me or have the comments gone downhill?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lately I've noticed a large number of one-liners in past several months being modded all the way up. It used to be that you'd have to post several paragraphs to score a +5. Likewise, the creativity of the trolls has gone downhill (with a few exceptions such as the gmail trolls). What's going on here? I think Slashdot is replacing its tech populance with ignorant teenagers and astroturfing marketers.

wasn't

[Anonymous Coward]

wasn't there a multimedia PC specification circa 1993-1995 which tried (and failed) to do this?

Two words:

[Gothmolly]

stu pid.
So a level 5 PC will have a medium processor. What is this, D&D? And what happens next year when last year's "medium" is this year's "suck" chip? This whole thing strikes me as horribly condescending, although perhaps its the logical extension of the Intel/AMD/Cyrix "Performance Rating" stupidity. And if so, does Joe Sixpack DESERVE the condescension, for buying into the crap before? Either way, a static rating system for PC performance is instantly outdated the minute that its implemented. Geesh.

Re:Two words:

[Dark Lord Seth]

Your PC has gained 250 experience points!

Level up! Your PC is now level 4!

Your PC attacks Doom 3 ( level 9 ) with a bastard sword!

Doom 3 attacks your PC ( level 4 ) with a Minigun with HE ammo!

Your PC has died. (A)bort, (F)ail, (R)etry?

Re:Two words:

[DarKnyht]

Geez, don't you watch TV anymore. Next Season there will be new Uber Levels that will be able to stomp the snot out of last years' weakling normal level PCs.

Then there will be the Combiner Level machines that start out as just normal level machines until you hook them together with the super secret password, then they can kick the snot out of even a Uber Level Machine. So instead of one type of computer, you will want to buy them all.

Meanwhile, back at the PC manufacturing headquarters the will have the secret Super Uber Level 10 Computer so he can rule the world, and group of evil madmen headed by this guy called Gates will.... er....

Ok, maybe I've been forced to watch Power Rangers, Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh one too many times.

Re:Two words:

[mmport80]

Well maybe in the near future computers won't get exponentially faster over time.

This'd probably means that "cutting edge" technology stays cutting edge for quite a while, as manufacturers won't be able to quickly jump onto another latest on greatest technology!

Re:Two words:

[Bull999999]

Mod anything funny up as Underrated until the /. devs repair the mod system, or dont mod up funny at all. See Journal.

The funny part is that your post got modded and funny dispite your sig.

Re:Two words:

[Dark Lord Seth]

So be it.

If a few people got a chuckle out of my post, it's worth the damned karma.

I'd much rather be a slightly entertaining fool then very uninteresting MS-bashing drone.

Re:Two words:

[carlcmc]

traditionally that is: abort, retry, fail?

Re:Two words:

[llamaluvr]

A Compaq draws near.
Command?

True, and what's worse

[Weaselmancer]

I completely agree. And it would be even worse than that.

Let's say that today, right now, the very best PC you can get is a level 10. Then, let's wait a year.

See where I'm going? What'll next year's very best be? A level 11? The system will wind up looking like Spinal Tap's amplifiers.

"No, mate. My PC goes to 11."

Re:True, and what's worse

[bmwm3nut]

we'll we could always go with a year (pre/post)fix to the level. that way, for example, we know that in any given year the midrange computer is 5 and others will scale from 0-10. so today's "level 5-04" could be eqivalent to next year's "level 3-05" and so on. i like the idea of labelling the computers by level as long as there is some standard that maps levels to actual equipment. once evil corporations can get away with just calling something "level n" then they'll put the cheapest possible products in there. just look what they do with benchmarks now (and those atleast have some physical meaning).

re: true, and what's worse

[ed.han]

that's not what's even worse: what's even worse is the plethora of evercrack fiends asking "but at what level can i cast wish and grant myself 18 DEX and 20 CHA, like bill gates did"

ed

for those unfamiliar w/ the joke: http://www.ussstardust.com/zeppelinmage/billgates. html

Re:True, and what's worse

[rnelsonee]

We could use a logarithmic scale.

Hmm... I kind of meant this to be a joke, but it would work. Use something like 1.5-base log where a 2 is 1.5x better than 1. A level 20 would be 437x faster, and by then something else would've come along....

The end consumer could care less about log scales. They might not understand them, but they're used in other things right now without complaint (Richter scale, dB levels...)

Re:True, and what's worse

[Anonymous Coward]

True. My wife, when I have maried her, was about 8. Today, after 20 years, ...

Re:True, and what's worse

[DahGhostfacedFiddlah]

The end consumer could care less...

No they couldn't

Re:True, and what's worse

[timeOday]

Uh huh. Same reason we can't use clock speed. Advertisers will never go for a number that just gets bigger and bigger, it would just put pressure on people to upgrade and make them uncomfortable. Oh, sure, it starts out reasonable, say 7.14 MHz. But you just know they'll shoot right up to 33 Mhz, 100 mhz, 500 Mhz... Then what? 1 Giga Hz? 3.5 GHz!!? As if the common man could ever grasp a billion of anything.

Re:True, and what's worse

[ThousandStars]

I don't think the people a "level" scale would target would understand a logarithmic scale.

Re:True, and what's worse

[Anonymous Coward]

A level 20 would be 437x faster, and by then something else would've come along....

"then" is what, next Wednesday? Seriously, this plan wouldn't get adopted before it was obsolete. But then, what does?

Re: true, and what's worse

[extra the woos]

Hehehe screw that, I want to cast command of druzzin on this chick in my calculus class~ If it resists I'll gate.

Re:True, and what's worse

[Trejkaz]

Thanks for saving me a post. Retards who spout crap like "could care less" are the worst kind of scum, the kind you can't get off the shower when you need to.

Re:True, and what's worse

[Trejkaz]

They don't have to, do they? They just have to know that an 11 is faster than a 10, and that a 12 is faster than an 11. You can't use a linear scale, because in a year and a half, the top would be level 20. Then in another year and a half, it would be level 40. After a few more of those, the level is changing so often that it no longer helps. "Umm... I have a level 3,000 CPU with a level 3,793 graphics card. Will the game work?"

Re:True, and what's worse

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple's "Good Better Best" seems to work well enough.

Re:True, and what's worse

[d474]

I think that this is ALL unnecessary. The only numbering system the consumer needs is $$$.

1. Salesman: This is a $1000 computer.
2. 
   Salesman: This is a $2200 computer.
   Salesman: This is a $399 computer.
   Customer: "I like that one."

What about if:

[Enigma_Man]

I have a 3 GHz processor, and 64 MB of ram vs. someone who has a 1.4 GHz processor, and 512 MB of ram?

WHAT LEVEL IS IT THEN?

This is akin to saying your rice-rocket has stage-3 nitrous, or a stage-umpteen turbocharger. It's just dumb.

-Jesse

Re:What about if:

[jfengel]

Presumably, they're both low-level computers. To reach a particular level you'd need at least X megahertz _AND_ Y megabytes. It's just a convenience to be able to say, "You need at least a 3 computer to play this game".

A 3 GHz processor coupled to only 64 MB RAM probably wouldn't be able to play the games intended for a computer with 2 GHz and a more reasonable 128 MB. Neither would the 1.4 GHz/512 MB. So the answer to "what if" is that each computer you mention would have a substantial limitation and therefore would qualify for only a low level (say a 5), whereas the software would require a 7.

Yeah, you may be able to use one or the other for a particular game. But this allows software sellers to commit to one particular minimum set of requirements and designate it with an easy-to-remember number (rather than a combination of processor, ram, video, etc.)

It's a convenience, not an absolute system for saying "this system is better than that system." The goal isn't to compare computers to each other, but to software. We currently do that with a clunky set of numbers; this is easier (but less precise).

I already do this except my levels are in $

[ArsonSmith]

a $500 computer will have a mid range processor and memory

a $700 computer will be better

a $1500 computer will be better still

It even scales correctly as technologie comes out.

Re:I already do this except my levels are in $

[Anonymous Coward]

a $1500 computer will be better still

not if it's a Mac...

Re:I already do this except my levels are in $

[julesh]

It even scales correctly as technologie comes out.

No it doesn't. 10 years ago, I doubt you'd have been able to get a $500 computer, let alone one with "mid range processor and memory". 20 years ago, $1500 is the only one of your price ranges that would have got you a PC.

Sure, the pricing changes slower than the actual capabilities of the computer, but there is a shift to lower cost going on as well.

Re:I already do this except my levels are in $

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure this makes sense, but it wouldn't help if the game you're purchasing says, "Requires a Level 5 computer". WTF?

Re:I already do this except my levels are in $

[Ralph Yarro]

So all I have to do to make my computer better is to change the price sticker? The salesmen must love you.

Re:I already do this except my levels are in $

[RPI Geek]

The only problem is where you buy the computer. I put together my new computer in June for $700, minus the peripherals by buying the parts direct. In July my gf's parents paid almost $1500 for a much inferior off-to-college computer with only about $400 worth of peripherals, $200 of software (windoze), and a $40 guarantee. I'm not adding assembly cost because: 1) I would have been willing to put a computer together for them free of charge, 2) it can't possibly cost the manufacturer much in man-hours, and 3) I rounded my other estimates up to cover it.

The bottom line is that they paid ~$150 MORE for a much INFERIOR computer due mainly to ignorance and retail markup. If I'd spent the extra $150 on my system (and waited a month), I could have even had the next tier video and sound cards. Basically, I'm saying that a price-based rating system needs to be based on some common denominator. Saying "my system cost more than yours therefore it's better" is meaningless because there are too many variables.

Now that I'm done nitpicking, I will agree with your general statement that price is a better yardstick than a 10-division rating system.

Re:I already do this except my levels are in $

[ArsonSmith]

Ok, lets call it the pricewatch price based computer levels then.

Re:I already do this except my levels are in $

[RPI Geek]

That works for a person who wants to build their own computer and knows what parts they want, but what about Joe & Jane Average who just want to browse the internet and let their kid play a few games?

Hmm, I just shot my own argument to the ground with that comment, didn't I?

Re:I already do this except my levels are in $

[ZX-3]

Seriously, didn't Commodore Amigas work like that? The Amiga 500 cost $500-something, the Amiga 1000 cost $1000-something, etc?

Re:I already do this except my levels are in $

[archen]

Actually I think a price scale is exactly what happens right now for the average person. A computer guru has too many variables to really price a system anyway. Maybe I can reuse a power suppy, I only need a $15 case, I decide I want a serial ATA mirror, with a good 3ware card... It's just too easy to skew any pricing structure when you know what you're doing. By contrast Joe Average has no clue what in the hell he should get. He sees vague numbers about RAM and processor speed that don't mean anything to him. So what else do you base it on? The more expensive one is better.

The difference is that the guru's scale is different from Joe's scale. Just like used cars. You go to a car auction and it's sort of sick how much cars are sold for only to end up on car lots with a couple thousand dollars mark up.

Re:I already do this except my levels are in $

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll try not to be a complete Amiga nerd to point out that whatever the financial case might have been the Amiga 500 came out with twice as much RAM as the Amiga 1000 (which was the first Amiga) - I think it might have been slightly cheaper at release but it was give or take an improvement on the 1000. you may have been thinking of the 2000 which was the 'big box' highend Amiga released around the time of the 500

I believe....

[aengblom]

I believe those are called Macs.

deja vu?

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't we already try this once with "Multimedia Level 1" or something like that?

I do think it's a good idea as a general system requirement rough guesstimate, so long as people keep in mind that are more variables in system performance than can be included in something like this.

Operating System Levels

[Anonymous Coward]

If operating systems had levels:

- Windows ME would run under the maximum negative value limit
- Windows XP would probably be 2
- Windows 2000 would probably be 2.5
- Windows Server 2003 would probably be 3
- Linux would probably be a 5
- Mac OS X would probably be a 5.000001 just to piss off Linux people
- *BSD would be a 10

Re:Operating System Levels

[Warlock7]

But, OS X is BSD?!?!

So, maybe you should move it further up your scale. ;)

Re:Operating System Levels

[Anonymous Coward]

Mac OS X would probably be a 5.000001 just to piss off Linux people

You can as well say, just to let the mac people feel great about themselves

Re:Operating System Levels

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't you hear? BSD is dead!

Re:Operating System Levels

[sploxx]

No, *BSD would be a level 10.000001 to be able to say Linux is not even as half as good as BSD! ;)

[Discl.: I'm an avid linux user and have never seen the need for BSD (besides coolness).]

Re:Operating System Levels

[TrevorB]

I still run Win98SE you insensitve clod!

And everyone who mods me up still uses Win98SE too, so there. :)

Re:Operating System Levels

[skiman1979]

98SE isn't so bad. I use Gentoo myself, but I also have a Windows partition. It would be 98SE, except that I "upgraded" to XP Pro for my job. Although I use Gentoo for most day-to-day uses. My wife still uses 98SE though. :-)

Re:Operating System Levels

[j7953]

No, BSD would be a 0xdead ;-).

Cars ...

[dcarey]

Interesting how this this scheme is similar to BMW's naming scheme for their luxury cars. Imaging buying a car, on the other hand, where the horsepower is as visible as the car's logo (like the Pentium emblems). Perhaps people will now understand the value of a computer's architecture is not best described when only in terms of clock speed?

Re:Cars ...

[Anonymous Coward]

All BMW's are luxury cars ;) BMW's naming scheme includes the engine capacity, which can almost be considered comparable to HP (ignoring turbos, superchargers, etc). A 325 has a 2.5L engine. When you see a Mx or Zx car, you know it's even better!

Re:Cars ...

[syrinx]

BMWs are numbered based on their body style and engine size (then they add letters for various features); these "level" numbers are, as far as I can tell, arbitrary. Different ideas. BMW's number is closer to how we used to name CPUs... based on a number (engine size or clock speed) that isn't exactly a measure of performance, but close enough to give an approximation.

More like: Level 6 upgrade, that' 43500

[DougNYC]

Only a marketing slime would come up with this.

Dumbing down the populace...

[Vexler]

Besides watering down the information that the average person would have to know about a particular system, it sounds like that scene in "My Cousin Vinny" where Vinny and his fiancee went into a local eatery the morning after they arrived for the murder trial, only to see the menu listing "Breakfast", "Lunch", and "Dinner" as the only available options.

I wonder if Bill Gates is inbred.

Re:Dumbing down the populace...

[TykeClone]

Are you sure it wasn't "Grits", "Lunch" and "Dinner"?

Re:Dumbing down the populace...

[Vexler]

I am pretty sure, because they do talk about "grits" in another part of the movie.

Re:Dumbing down the populace...

[TykeClone]

By the other part of the movie, I think you mean "the rest of the movie"

It appears that "grits" are a central part of life in the deep south.

Re:Dumbing down the populace...

[Anonymous Coward]

MS does want stupid lusers as customers. They want the "power user" at home with duel monitors, surround sound speakers, wireless keyboard and mouse, Bluetooth everything, and wireless networking so they can use Kazaa to download porn and get infected emails. The less people understand computers, the less fear MS has of Linux.

Time

[glpierce]

Wouldn't the date be far more informative than anything else? If you have a 3-year old computer, I can probably give you general spec ranges to which it conforms. Whether you say it's a "Level 5" or not, my first response will always be "when was it made?" The only way to counter this would be to keep on going up (today's level 3 is next year's level 13). There are a hundred other reasons why this is a poor idea, but I'll leave them to other posts.

Re:Time

[Lord_Raptor]

This (and the next post) were one of my thoughts exactly. What happens over time, when todays level 5 becomes tomorrows level 4. Hell, if you buy a level 5, by the time you get it home and set up, it's most likely a 4 anyway, especially if it's being shipped. One idea would be to have the Level determined by Software, not manufacturer. If there was software that ran benchmarks, and connected to a managed internet server to determine how the computer rates in modern levels of computing. Might make it harder for vendors to dupe those who don't pay attention to detail. i.e. "Really fast Celeron processor with 128MB of memory" wouldn't really fly as a "fast multimedia computer" anymore.

Re:Time

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, now that beers have "Born On" dates, we could just start stamping machines with "Best if used before..."

Idiotic

[slungsolow]

Why would you do something like this? The "level" is completely arbitrary and there would certainly be no way to certify or verify it.

What about when a year or two passes and your "Level 7" PC is now a "level 2"? What happens with the previous "level 2" PC?

Re:Idiotic

[jav1231]

This is more evidence of why we should be able to smack a Marketing Rep a day.

In a way, we have something like this...

[foxtrot]

...in the geek world, at least.

Ars Technica does a system guide that has multiple levels of computer. Just slap a number on each one, and poof.

The problem is that time changes these things. My computer six months ago was a "Hot Rod", but now it's an "Ultimate Budget Box." In the future, I'll buy a Level 7, but in a couple of months it'll become a Level 5. How do I know what level my computer currently is so I know whether or not it'll run that great new game that requires a Level 6 PC?

...and how many experience points does my PC need to get to level 8?

But time decreases the "level"!

[PeterChenoweth]

So that snazzy new "Level 7" computer just became a "Level 6" the moment you opened the box. A week later it's a "Level 5". Seems like a waste of time and a hassle to consumers.

What about tomorrow?

[fransdw]

So, if I buy a level 7 PC today I will still be able to buy a level 7 game next year and play it on my level 7 PC? I don't think so. Will they keep on upping the levels? By 2020 we get a level 696969 PC to play Leasure Suit Larry ;-) Hmm?

Bah

[Escherial]

Yet another ridiculous attempt to make something rightfully (and only modestly) complex into something mind-numbingly lacking in anything but (arbitrary) comparison value. What am I supposed to do when I ask someone how much RAM they have and they reply "oh, I don't know, I have a level 4"?

Let's stop catering to the idea that consumers can't wrap their brains around the concept of multiple components in a computer.

Re:Bah

[Anonymous Coward]

What am I supposed to do when I ask someone how much RAM they have and they reply "oh, I don't know, I have a level 4"?

You obviously have never done tech support because that would be one step up from answers I've heard. First, most people have no clue what RAM means. Second, if you say memory they will give you hard drive capacity. Finally, if you actually get somebody who understands the distinction they still probably won't know and you will have to tell them how to find out.

Whether consumder can or "wrap their brains around the concept" is not the question. The question is whether they want to or not.

Re:Bah

[The Almighty Dave]

I'll stop catering to the idea that consumers can't wrap their brains around the concept of multiple components in a computer when consumers show that they can wrap their brains around the concept of multiple components in a computer.

Even if they know that there are multiple components in a computer, they have no idea what they are, what they do, or any other useful information about them. "Can you put more megs in my computer?", " We put a new modem in our hard drive.", This is the kind of stuff they babble about.

Nice use of the english language.

[MrChubble]

Apparently the level of this guy's brain is way low because he is having major trouble with grammar and sepllign. You think he'd read it over at least once to realize how horrible his style of writing is.

Re:Nice use of the english language.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd be the first to say

You must be new here.
This is /.
Garammer and spelings are for noobies

difficult to do

[pbranes]

At work, I had to come up with some default computer configs so that we could get cheaper PCs by ordering in bulk. I quickly found out that while one person can do fine with an SATA drive, other people insist that they must have an IDE drive for some reason. I never could get the number of computer combinations down below about 15 - and that is just one company! Think about all the combinations that would be made for everyone in the world to buy a computer - it really is much simpler the way it is where you choose your hardware when you buy your computer.

Why not...

[NoMercy]

Then us geeks could compare computer numbers, make it sound less geeky, but it's still not quite as sexy as comparing numbers on fast cars.

Terrible idea

[GoNINzo]

The idea of levels is just stupid. People can have machines with a vast array of different equipment. I might have a P4 with 128 meg of RAM and a Geforce 2 MX. How would that compare with a P4 with 128 meg of RAM and a Radeon 9800? It's really hard to make that comparison because they are both limited by the RAM.

It would be easier to designate a computer by a year when it was top of the line. For instance, if I put 'PC1999 compatible' means that it would be compatible with a computer that's 5 years old. A brand new game requiring a P4 3.0 with a gig of ram might be a PC2004+ or something. Most people can figure out what year their computer came from, once it's in general use.

A good example of the different requirements for games is the Sims 2. You need more hardware if you have a non-T&L card, but less if you get a better card. So it's video card dependant.

I hate this direction he is considering. Because I think he's just pushing it so that eventually you'd have Xbox 3 using a rating system on their games. 'Xbox 3 level 5 required' and such. ugh.

Re:Terrible idea

[kidgenius]

Perfect example between my computer and one of my friend's computers. My specs were aa P3 850 w/ radeon 8500LE and ~400MB RAM. His was an Athlon XP 1800+ w/ 512RAM but only a GeForce 2 MX. When we compared 3dMark 2k1 scores, mine were nearly double. How does microsoft attempt to exlpain all this?

Re:Terrible idea

[Tenebrious1]

The idea of levels is just stupid. People can have machines with a vast array of different equipment. I might have a P4 with 128 meg of RAM and a Geforce 2 MX. How would that compare with a P4 with 128 meg of RAM and a Radeon 9800? It's really hard to make that comparison because they are both limited by the RAM.

Since they are throttled by RAM and can barely run Windows, they'd both be level 1. What's so difficult about it? I mean, it's just taking each spec of the system, looking up what that spec "rates", and then averaging the numbers to get the level. The P4 might give you an 8, GeForce2 might be a 4, Radeon 9800 a 6, but because both systems only have 128MB RAM, that triggers a flag which automatically sets the Level to 1. Raise the memory to 1GB in each machine and the "flag" is removed, and you get a realistic system level of say 5 for the GeF2 and a 7 for the Radeon 9800.

Re:Terrible idea

[lambadomy]

Really what matters is what level computer would I need at the beatdown.

Re:Terrible idea

[ilctoh]

My idea would be for the computer manufacturers and software makers to agree on a standard form for reporting specs. For instance, a table with the words "GHz, RAM, HDD, GRAPHICS, etc) going down the left column, and the value for each of these going down the right - stick this sticker right on the side of the case. On the box for each software, the exact same format would appear, but with the minimun requirements. That way, users can just look and see how much ram/harddisk space/CPU speed they have, and do a simple greater than/less than comparasion to see if the software in question will run on their box.

Re:Terrible idea

[GoNINzo]

Excellent point! `8r) I know I upgraded mine before the last one I went to! heh

What Standard?

[NashCarey]

Ok, problems already hit my mind on this philosophy. What happens when the market changes? Do the levels change with them? Or in 6 years is everyone asking for a level 62 computer? Why must we label them? Don't the specs speak for themselves?

So why must any company do this? This is like going to buy a car and trying to stay away from cars with a GX on it and only looking for LX.

Yet another method of dumbing down the users....

[ARRRLovin]

Fantastic. People barely know what a CD ROM is and now they'll need to know even less.

Next thing you know, they'll brand anyone who can clean an email virus from their machine as a "Security Expert"......oh wait..

It doesn't matter what level you buy today ...

[Whispers_in_the_dark]

... because no matter what it will at most level two within a year...

Great

[pete-classic]

Software versions and CPU speeds (and then ratings) haven't been enough marketing fodder. Now we have to face an exponentially increasing "Level" factor.

This is the whole "everything" 2000 all over again.

-Peter

Too many things involved...

[aquadood]

There are too many things involved as far as hardware in a PC for this to work correctly. I do not see how this would seperate different machines, one with more ram versus one with higher cpu. Would this only be leveled as far as GPU/CPU power? Well then, I'm going to buy the new dell level 10, though it only has 128MB ram. I can see even more confusing advertisments, and ways for the everyday, non-computer-saavy users to get screwed over.

Borg style clustering/upgrading.

[B5_geek]

I can't remember what this is called, but there is/was a computing proposal that allowed you to add computing 'bricks'.

Each brick consisted of a CPU that when stacked with these other bricks added to the CPU horsepower of the total package.

This concept might actually work quite well.
Video and storage were seperate, so want to run Doom5 at 60fps and have the holographic level of detail enabled, but 3 extra cpu Bricks.

Re:Borg style clustering/upgrading.

[Royoken]

I can't remember what this is called, but there is/was a computing proposal that allowed you to add computing 'bricks'

Beowulf cluster imo

Re:Borg style clustering/upgrading.

[B5_geek]

hehe no,

it was an actual physical interconnect, and brick size & shape components that you could add/remove to increase/decrease processing power.

IIRC there were some serious heat issues.

Re:Borg style clustering/upgrading.

[Control Group]

Are you thinking of the HAL supercomputers that hit the news a few years back? IIRC, all the processing was done on FPGA boards, and you just added boards into the box at whim. I remember them claiming you could fire a gun into the box, and it would keep running, just slower.

I wish I could remember better what they were called.

Google to the rescue: HAL "hypercomputers"

It's useless even before it starts...

[ites]

Since computer hardware improves rapidly and continually, it's impossible to tag a particular specification with a level. Today's level 10 is a level 5 in six months and a level 2 in a year.

The only meaningful "levels" are price tags, and people already do that: cheap home PC, low-cost business, high-cost business, top-end gaming and video editing, server.

I suspect this is just a ploy to justify releasing a new pricing system for MS software. Obviously Windows for a level 10 system is going to cost more than Windows for a level 4 system. It would allow them to make Windows _very_ cheap for $399 PCs while making fatter profit margins on $1999 game monsters.

Re:It's useless even before it starts...

[Thinman]

I was thinking something like that, but in the sense that w2k3 will only run on level 10 (enterprise) but not in level 5 (home). In this way M$ will push you to buy a higher "level" machine instead using cheap HW.

Regards.

Saver

[vijaya_chandra]

a PC with a "level 5" designation might have a medium processor speed, amount of RAM, and mid-range video card, while a "level 7" PC might have a faster processor, more RAM, and a higher-end video card."

It'd be great if some big guy, who can really 'decide' standards, comes up with a good classification like this. That'd save a lot of people from confusion due to the differences in the chip makers' terminologies like those of Intel and AMD about their processor speeds.

However how this classification'd include newer powerful configurations and update the classes would be interesting to see

copycat morons

[madchris]

Why should these copycat morons have anything to do with the future of hardware - especially after doing so very well with software.

Level 5 WHEN?

[freeze128]

A level 5 computer today will no longer be a level 5 computer in 5 years. Do we just come up with a different numbering system then?

Maybe each system should be ranked by its PERFORMANCE (MIPS), and not some arbitrary numbering system.

Re:Level 5 WHEN?

[evanh]

The number will be ever-increasing just like MIPS and it'll give the marketroids more leeway to twist the truth.

Transparency? What's that? A see-through PC?

Re:Level 5 WHEN?

[julesh]

Maybe each system should be ranked by its PERFORMANCE (MIPS), and not some arbitrary numbering system.

MIPS just doesn't give the consumer enough information. If they purchased on that alone, they'd end up with the wrong system.

Here's a novel idea -- why not describe computer systems by how well they run a particular popular application?

This is a "High-performance Microsoft Office XP" PC; that's a "Doom 3 at 70FPS" machine; but this one's an "encode DVD to Xvid at 3x real time".

Re:Level 5 WHEN?

[landaker]

Maybe each system should be ranked by its PERFORMANCE (MIPS), and not some arbitrary numbering system.

+5 Ironic =)

Need a way to justify inability to ramp up speed.

[Warlock7]

This is a load. MS is finally realizing that they've run into a brick wall beyond what Moore's law could predict.
The processors can't get many more transistors crammed into them without burning up and rather than using the same old MHz/GHz measurements they need to move to a new convention.
This is their own fault since they've been drilling it into everyones heads for so long that it's all about processor speeds and virtually nothing else matters.
They dug themselves into this hole and now they need to get back out, but they didn't bring along a ladder.

Apple

[Zorilla]

I thought Apple did this with the original iMacs and it seemed ridiculous then.

"My Macintosh is grape!"

Great.

Re:Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

"My Macintosh smells like burning."

Re:Apple

[sammy baby]

"It's like a tiny god."

Re:Apple

[jafac]

Check Apple's web-store.
Good. Better. Best.

But Apple lets the user customize.

This "Level x" stuff just sounds like a weak attempt by moronic Marketing Dweebs to remove the customer from the technical details of buying a computer. A welcome move for some, but ultimately, it will be a tool to bait-and-switch.

Stupid System

[Anonymous Coward]

Err... Either the naming standard will quickly become useless ("I have a Level 7 system: 3 Ghz Processor, 3 Gb RAM", etc... vs. "My system is only a Level 6. It has a 3.9 Ghz processor, 6 Gb of Ram but ever since they started having double-digit Ghz Processors it's been kinda slow..") or the numbers will go to infinity (Ha! My PC is a Level 1000, while yours is a measly Level 998!)

constantly changing definitions

[HP-UX'er]

What level 7 is this year, maybe a level 3 next. the definitions would either have to keep changing, or level definitions keep increasing. or both ... say we have: 2004 level 5 next year, a pc manufacturer puts out same hardware, but rated 2005 level 3. sounds way too complicated, and too easy to perverse ...

Will these levels change with the times?

[LilMikey]

Will the level 7 computer you bought today be a level 5 tomorrow? Or will they just keep tacking on numbers... By next year we'll be at level 11520?

If you ask me, they should have levels depending on your competence with a computer... A Level 1 machine has a locked down "Windows dummy edition" on it that automatically blocks anything stupid and equally idiotic hardware. A Level 3 would be any Mac or Windows XP preinstall locked down enough that you can't hurt others but can fuxor youself pretty good. A Level 5 comes with a nice Fedora Pre-Install on decent hardware. A Level 10 with the parts in a big box and Gentoo's Web Site.

Umm, and that is better how...

[i_r_sensitive]

Yeah, let's get rid of clearly stated hardware requirements in favor of some nebulous level definition.

Because I'll love nothing better to find out that the level 7 game I just bought doesn't work on my level 7 system...

Particularly if it turns out to be something trivial like no 5.1 on the soundcard...

what is this..shadowrun?

[Raleel]

does this remond anyone else of the generic gategories in, say, Shadowrun? heck, the DRM chipping and hacking reminds me of it already. Soon we'll be buying Matsushita Level 9 brainboards and the like.

I wonder how many xp it takes for my computer to get from level one to level two. 10 orcs? complete one adventure?

What happens after 6 months?

[GoMMiX]

Level 10 suddenly knowns it's now a level 5?

Hardware changes to fast, this isn't possible. It just wouldn't work.

Stupidity....

[jav1231]

"Frustrated by the recent bursting of the Mhz bubble by AMD and Intel's apparent disconcern, PC makers are contemplating a level system. No word on the specifics, but one spokesman said he has it on good authority that the levels will range from 1 to 11. That's ELEVEN! ELEVEN! Because it's higher than TEN, of course!"

Re:Stupidity....

[Saint Stephen]

Argh! You beat me to it. My computer goes to eleven.

I doubt this will happen

[Frag-A-Muffin]

The home (x86) PC market is as big as it is now because of the exact opposite situation! Being able to freely swap whatever you want in and out is what makes the PC market so big. (Apple's starting to catch on too!)

If people are allowed to swap whatever components they want, then how would they rate the computer as a whole from a hardware manufacturer's level? It would have to be done in software, for example, as Windows boots up, runs some quick diags. and flags your computer as level 5 (or whatever) and that's what your computer would say is your level. Anything else would probably not work, or be too complicated to work well.

It has potential

[Slave2TheGrind]

I think that does have the potential to simplify things for the "average" user who does not understand the complexities of today's computers.

Consider the typical minimum spec requirements of games, not everyone understands everything that is listed, or why a particular game may require a 1.5 Ghz Intel processor but only a 1.0 Ghz AMD processor. If hardware had to meet certain minimum performance requirements to be branded as performing at a certain "level" then it would be much easier for users to understand minimum spec requirements of "Level n PC required".

However, this would also mean that hardware and software developers agree on a standard, and we all know how likely that is to happen. Is anyone else thinking of DVD+R/DVD-R? Or for an older reference, VHS/Betamax?

A problem for game developers

[div_B]

It's gonna make things a whole lot more obvious when Doom V requires a level 13 system to run at full detail, and at at the time of release the best PC available for purchase is a level 11. ;)

Hit Points....

[theamarand]

Does that mean that once a "Level 1" computer has been released and becomes obsolete, there will never be a "Level 1" again? Or will there be "Level 1, 2004 standard" or something?

Does that mean that after a few years, we'll have "Level 42" computers? I know the standards won't last that long, but it would be funny if they did.

Finally, we (the technical people) will still be asked, on a daily basis, "so, which Level computer should I get?" and we'll either have to answer with the Level number, or the actual technical specs. We'll STILL have to know what each Level means.... Personally, it just sounds like obfuscation, abstraction; something that Micro$oft can charge big-time support fees for.

I often find myself asking these customers/relatives/friends: "Well, what do you want to DO with this hypothetical computer? Do you want a warranty? What operating system do you want? How much do you want to pay?" because divulging a string of specs up-front is usually not the most useful or helpful thing to do with someone who wants to know The Answer, not necessarily the methodology behind it.

And According to Bill...

[logic hack]

A level 640k computer should be enough for anybody.

Levels, Jerry, LEVELS!

[artemis67]

JERRY: You're doing this yourself?
KRAMER: It's a simple job. Why, you don't think I can?
JERRY: Oh, no. It's not that I don't think you can. I know that you can't, and I'm positive that you won't.

Need to replace mhz

[j14ast]

as people are realising that mhz matter less and less, machine makers need a simple single number for the populace to understand Its all just marketing bull. Real nerds will continue to condence large amounts of reviews down to essensial truths then build thier machine (i recomend extra wieght be given to hardocp and tomshardware) this level _ crap may be on the requirements on boxes of software some day but i doubt it

Done Before?

[Solstice]

I seem to recall that they already tried this before with the Multimedia PC standard? Wikipeda helped fill in my fuzzy memory:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimedia_PC

R&D

[MikeMacK]

"Levels" of Computers the Future?

All that money spent on R&D, and this is what they come up with?

grrr.. does that mean the level decays?

[Planetes]

If you factor in obsolescense will your computer have a new stat: "half-life"? As your computer ages your level decreases. *sheesh* brilliant idea people..

Direct X should do this already

[Anonymous Coward]

This is somthing direct X should let users know. since computer "requirement are a moving target DirectX should run a diagnosis, and spit out a rating for your PC

Warp level Five, Ensign

[Mulletproof]

"He provided a hypothetical example that a PC with a "level 5" designation might have a medium processor speed, amount of RAM, and mid-range video card, while a "level 7" PC might have a faster processor, more RAM, and a higher-end video card."

I know! Since this is the future, we can call these names these levels "warp", Warp 10 being the fastest computer known to man. So fast, it may be potentially unachievable! of course, once we've achieved that speed in 5 years, we'll have to overhaul the Warp system of measurment and conjure up the excuse that Warp 10 computing back then really wasn't really the warp 10 computing we know today...

Re:Warp level Five, Ensign

[squarefish]

my computer goes to 11

;)

MPC?

[poot_rootbeer]

Isn't this just a rehash of the "MPC" and "MPC2" designations for multimedia PC's that we had a decade ago, only targeted towards 3D gaming? How long did those last before they were abandoned?

Re:MPC?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this insighful and not redundant? It's only been mentioned about a dozen times or so already!!!

The reason for this is

[smartin]

So that they can price their O/S based on the speed of hardware running it. I used run into vendors trying to do this back in my network management days. I remember asking one of them. "You want me to pay more for your software because I paid more for the hardware I run it on?" and he said "Sure, you will get more use out of our software.". I was still laughing at him as I shoved him out the door.

Re:The reason for this is

[Hormonal]

If you replace "door" with "5th-story window", you get far fewer stupid vendors coming round to hawk their wares.

Unless you really miss the entertainment, you may want to look into it.

Re:The reason for this is

[fupeg]

I think you might have a point. Such a tactic would be a classic monopolist tactic. Charge different prices to different people based on their demand level (money willing to spend.) That way you maximize your fleecing of the public.

This is how IBM made so much money in the 50's. They made very little profits on their mainframes, because the shelf life of the mainframes was so long. So they made all their money on punch cards. If you used somebody else's punchcard, you voided your warranty. They would charge different companies different prices for punchcards, based on how much money the company was worth. A company worth more got charged more.

Re:The reason for this is

[Tim C]

So that they can price their O/S based on the speed of hardware running it.

"Hi, CompuTech? I'd like to buy Windows Longwait 2010, please."
"Sure, what level is your computer?"
"Oh, that old thing?" (looks at gleaming level 50 powerhouse under desk) "It's a level 25."
"Are you sure? Longwait will be a bit slow on a system like that..."
"Yeah, I know, but I need it"
"Ok then, let me have your details..."

It's much more likely that this is so that people like my parents and my brother can look at a piece of software, check the level PC it needs, and immediately know whether or not it should run on their machine, rather than trying to work out what processor they have, how much RAM, etc etc. Nice people, but barely technically literate - you know, a good 75%+ of the population.

Re:The reason for this is

[thisissilly]

Back in the VAX/VMS days, our school's VAXcluster included an ancient VAX 11/785, because it was much cheaper for us to license software for that machine than for the other, faster machines. When we finally turned it off in (I think) 1996, it was the last 11/785 operating in NJ.

Re:The reason for this is

[KillerCow]

I think you might have a point. Such a tactic would be a classic monopolist tactic. Charge different prices to different people based on their demand level (money willing to spend.) That way you maximize your fleecing of the public.

They already do. See Personal (or Home) vs Plus vs Professional vs Enterprise (or Data Centre).

They already spent the cost in developing the more advanced version. There is fiscal reason to make someone pay more for an advanced version (excepting support costs, but those could be marketed as as service). It's pure marketing.

Read the section titled "Price Is Not Just a Number" in Product Pricing Primer.

Re:The reason for this is

[southpolesammy]

Last time I checked, Oracle still does this.

Re:The reason for this is

[Dark$ide]

"You want me to pay more for your software because I paid more for the hardware I run it on?"

Which, curiously, is exactly what IBM does on their zSeries mainframes and has done for many years.

Re:The reason for this is

[cathouse]

I am quite curious where you got such a mass of absolute and total bullshit. To point out just a couple of the false-to-fact items: 1] IBM WOULD NOT SELL computers until the middle '60s-prior to then they would only LEASE them, and such expendables as Hollorith Cards and Customer Engineers were included in the base rate. 2] As should be obvious from #1, there was no *warranty* to be voided. Despite the lack of a warranty, IBM promised and delivered *5 nines* (.99999) up time, which contributed greatly to the expendable aspect of Customer Engineers. 3] IBM was never even close to being a monopoly. They had at least two major US rivals, although I can only recall one by name: that being the Burroughs Adding Machine Corperation (which punched ROUND holes into slightly smaller cards) and generated enough profits to enable one of the founders' children, William L Burroughs, to travel the world purchasing and ingesting massive quantities of every drug available on the planet, and writing the strangest novels in the history of the English language. He also *accidentally* killed two of his wives by shooting them WITH THE SAME PISTOL and never spent a single day in jail-which can't have been cheap. The next time you feel like smearing an American Institution, you might consider using at least some tiny shread of truth.

the future?

[justforaday]

I can't wait to see where we are in 10 years. Will you need a level 86+ machine to play whatever the hot new game is (Doom6, UT2015, DNF)?

Max Payne

[VistaBoy]

This reminds me of the game Max Payne, where the box said "This game requires a computer capable of X amount of 3Dmarks (3Dmark2001)."

However, I don't think it's a good idea to reduce a computer down to one number, since that number eliminates so many variables that a comparison between two computers would be useless.

brilliant idea (not)

[grm_wnr]

Aside from the obvious "Level degradation" some people (well, nearly all of the ;) ) already mentioned, don't we have somthing like this already? Minimum specs, recommended specs, and The Newest And Most Expensive Box There Is. Looks like three levels to me...

Re:brilliant idea (not)

[Keeper]

We have exactly that. The problem is that the average consumer doesn't know what any of those specs represent, has no idea what is inside their computer, and really doesn't know if their computer can really run the software they are buying (they just assume it will).

Hell, I have problems reading through the system requirements ... they're usually on the bottom of the box in a 4pt font...

Marketting

[Mateito]

What a load of bollocks.

Obviously this is marketting crap aimed at the home user, but if they haven't yet worked out that YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR, will sticking yet another number help any?

If you are data crunching, you may need a level 5 Hard drive, a level 8 CPU, but a level 3 graphics card. If this is your home entertainment center,, you may be fine with a level 8 HD, level 6 CPU, level 4 graphics. Which machine is "better"? Its too easy to pull the wool over consumer's eyes. I'm sure we could all populate a m/board with heaps of the cheapest RAM available to knock a computer system up a notch or two.

Of course, to run Longhorn, you are looking at level 15, right off the bat, across the board.

Re:Marketting

[saintp]

I think you raise a good point: different needs have different levels. My work computer is, I think, a level 10 for what it does: Dual Athlon 2800+, 1.5 Gb RAM, but 40 Gb hard drive and ancient PCI video card that I pulled out of a 486. I don't need a big honkin' video card or hard drive to compile. But I can't play darn near anything on it. Heck, Tux Racer is too fancy for this box. What is it, then? When I can toast most any modern computer on darn near any benchmark, but stick a Geforce 2 in a Pentium 2 and you'll outperform me in games.

This is why we have *lots* of benchmarks. Some are applicable to some people, others to other people. If I'm raytracing, I want to know that Pentium chips are great for floating-point monsters, not that I should have a level 8.

Re:Marketting

[Keeper]

This isn't about rating machines for sale, it's about making it easy for the home user to determine if a piece of software will run on the machine they already own.

It isn't meant for people like you, because you already know what all of the terms are and how they relate to each other. Joe Schmoe who buys his computer at Walmart doesn't know the difference between RAM and HD space, let alone that a 2ghz P4 is way slower than a 2ghz Athlon ...

Re:Marketting

[Mateito]

British English: double the last letter before adding ing or ed. I understand that this may be a complicated rule for you.

I market.
I marketted
I am marketting.

In spite of that, is that the most valuable contribution you can make, pedant?

Re:Marketting

[Lord_Dweomer]

I agree that this is TOTALLY marketing. As someone in marketing/advertising myself, this is a joke. What they're trying to do is come up with a unique way for people to classify their systems ON THEIR TERMS.

That is key. You see, they want the ability to have the say over what components give you a level X computer, and that my friends is power. It has a lot to deal with how computers were measured by processor speed, and then AMD turned that model on its side. Control over how things are labeled and classified equals control over your market. Plus, if they DID do this, expect them to abuse it to no end in their marketing of gaming machines. GET YOUR XTREME Level 10 GAMING RIG TODAY!!!!! PUTS LEVEL 9's to SHAME!

Re:Yet another method of dumbing down the users...

[Wescotte]

Fantastic. People barely know what a CD ROM is and now they'll need to know even less


You mean cup holder don't you?

Re:Need a way to justify inability to ramp up spee

[Anonymous Coward]

How is the MS's fault? They sell the OS they don't run the marketing of the entire PC hardware industry.

Re:Is it just me or have the comments gone downhil

[Anonymous Coward]

Such as yourself?

Level 51

[Anonymous Coward]

Please Note:

Must have proper illuminati Optical ID chip to purchase.

Level 0

[elrick_the_brave]

And what about the level 0.. would that not be the ultimate hax0r machine without a real definition.. a custom jobby?

how about levels based on user skill

[jlebrech]

How about: N00b Gamer L337 H4x0r

Re:how about levels based on user skill

[Thud457]

Should read : H4x0r N00b Gamer L337

Because real gurus know how to do more with a lot less.

Is it just me?

[Cytlid]

Or is MS always looking for ways to "Keep People Stupid"? That should be their new slogan. They figure the less people really know, the more they can get away with telling them whatever they want and getting away with it. Their business model is one of what they would call "innovation" but on the other hand, keeping people dumb enough to not know the difference. Let's face it, the more you know about whats really going on (in this case something like computer specs), the more control you have over it, the more of your personal opinion you have... hmmm. I've seen the bar raised on general knowledge about computers and the internet in the last few years. This approach of "levels" seems sort of counter-productive, or somehow against normal evolution.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

The future leveling system

[DavidLeblond]

Microsoft plans on rating its systems with its new "G rating"

a low end system will be G3, mid range G4, and the newer systems will be G5.

Oh wait...

Terror Level

[fiber0pti]

Sounds about as vague as the current terror level colors.

Level system is not necessarily a bad idea

[biwillia]

I don't believe that the 'level idea' is necessarily a bad one. How many of us have heard a conversation like this?:

Q: What kind of computer did you buy?
A: Oh, I got a 512 and it has 80, too!

A lot of consumers don't really grasp the different categories of hardware on a computer. What a lot of people want is a simple performance indicator, perhaps marginally similar to a car identifier (Audi 2, 3, 4, 6, 8: Small, bigger, biggest, etc.).

The only disadvantage of this that I can see is the whole level thing degenerating into a meaningless figure that gets doubled every year. It could end up being like CD-ROM speed indicators, 'double-speed', 4x, 8x, 16x, 48x, etc, which can become meaningless after a while.

Bonus level!

[dosle]

SWEET, got all the warp whistles.

...and forget about custom built systems...

[gmezero]

From my read on this, the "level" would be something broadcast from the bios, so as to protect users from trying to run incompatible software on their system and complaining when it doesn't work. Just watch. This means there will be games that refuse to run on your "Level unidentified" system.

Re:...and forget about custom built systems...

[dasmegabyte]

I can't see PC component manufacturers -- who still make a TON of money off upgrades, which are much higher margin than bulk buys -- ever locking people out of their own machines. It's much more likely they'll include utilities to re-level your PC when you upgrade.

Even still, remeber: the client is in the hands of the enemy. If you REALLY want to suffer through a Level 8 game on your Level 2 Palm Pilot, somebody will hack a way, DMCA or no.

Re:...and forget about custom built systems...

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

From my read on this, the "level" would be something broadcast from the bios, so as to protect users from trying to run incompatible software on their system and complaining when it doesn't work.

Sorry, where does anything say that? I missed it. Considering that Intel and co. seem to be moving away from a classical BIOS as fast as they can, and that the peripheral/component guys are hardly going to support a scheme that would reduce their sales, I don't see the credibility here.

It depends on the Game....

[Prien715]

It really depends on the friggin game or application. Does MS Access need a GeForce4? Nope (more memory is probably good).

Will Matlab run better with 1 GB of memory vs 256 MB? Probably not (a fast proc is good though).

If I have a 2 GHz CPU and want to run Doom 3, I can, but I'll need a new graphics card (my CPU would be fine).

It all boils down to what you're doing on your PC. Unless you're playing Doom3, you can probably go without the Radeon x800 turbo platiunum all-in-one-wonder pro extreme and save yourself some money or spend it on better parts you will use. If you're a gamer, you may be able to skip a proc upgrade occasionally (or go with a slightly worse processor) and go for a better video card.

Computers are general purpose machines. But what specs your computer should have depends on your specific applications.

Even better!

[maximilln]

Is this going to be like blackboxing cars for insurance companies?

Business insurance rates will receive discounts for retailers who sell only certified computers which conform to the level system as it (will be) can be shown that certified level computers have fewer hardware defects, returns, or warranty claims. Vendors therefore will seek out distributors who only deal in level certified computing systems. As with all certification and standardization it will be much easier to certify the level of the computer if all the hardware is integrated. Manufacturers will now control the add-on industry--they will select who gets the contracts for DVD ROMS, CD ROMS, vid cards, audio cards, network cards. It will be easy to wheedle a BIOS chip into the level certification and standardization. Major retailers will only carry at least level X computers as an assurance of product quality, and of course only the latest MS patented DRM will qualify for level X certification.

Oh bless me. I can see the wonderful corruption, backstabbing, price fixing, and political graft already.

Super Size Me

[4ginandtonics]

Awwright... uh...

Gimmie a Number 2, hold the pickles, extra mayo, onion rings instead of fries. Diet Coke. Make it a biggie.

----

I can hear it now:

"Hey, nice box. Is that a Level 6?"

"Naw, it's a Level 5, but I upgraded the transmatic illudium vector sub processor, so it's about as good as a Level 6."

"No way...... The Level 6 has the super ultra mega dynamo, "

"Oh yeah. I guess it's a really like the level 5.5a, then."

"I suppose so. Say, did you see the new Level 37? Man, that's a sweet computer".

"Yeah, but I'm saving my money for the Level 50 that's due out next month."

Future updates?

[Drathos]

So how does this work when newer, faster components come out?

If I buy a top of the line computer (lets call it a level 10) in order to play some games with a "level 7 or higher" requirement, what about a year or two later? Do they keep incrementing the number that's used for the highest level system, or am I supposed to magically know that my system now qualifies as a level 6?

IMHO, this is useless and will probably end up confusing people even more.

In Case You Guys Haven't Noticed...

[John_Booty]

...PC gaming is really losing ground to console gaming. One of the reasons for this is that compatibility issues make commercial PC game development an absolute nightmare.

Think about the all the permutations of RAM, CPU, and operating system. Throw in variables like RAM speed, service pack levels of the OS, and so on. The amount of testing required to get a PC game out of the door is pretty insane. And then you have issues like copy protection schemes forced upon you by your publisher that render your game unplayable for a large number of LEGIT users.

Contrast that development process with the console game development process. Sure, you need to pay some licensing fees to Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo, but the number of man-hours required for testing is reduced by a pretty amazing amount.

I think the "level" designation would be a step in the right direction when it comes to simplifying the compatibility process and would help newbie users. I'm sure that with this "level" scheme, Detailed RAM/CPU/GPU specs would still be there for us knowledgable people, but you have to admit that shit is pretty confusing for regular people. Just look at all the people who shell out good money for PCs that are basically crippled because they ship with only 256MB of RAM and shitty onboard video and get confused when their PC games run like crap. It turns people off to the whole PC experience.

With a "level" system, though, a potential PC gamer could see that today's hot games require a "Level 12" PC or whatever. Then he can see that el-cheapo $500 "Level 4" PC from Gateway he's considering just isn't going to cut it. Then he can plan his purchases a little better.

Levels for Joe User

[Zorilla]

Level 5 computer: Athlon 2400+, 512 MB RAM, GeForce FX 5200

Level 3 computer: Athlon 2400+, 512 MB RAM, GeForce FX 5200, WeatherBug, CoolWebSearch

Level 2 computer: Athlon 2400+, 512 MB RAM, GeForce FX 5200, WeatherBug, CoolWebSearch, Bonzi Buddy, ShopAtHomeSelect

Level -1 computer: Athlon 2400+, 512 MB RAM, GeForce FX 5200, WeatherBug, CoolWebSearch, Bonzi Buddy, ShopAtHomeSelect, Claria, Alexa, Sasser, DiallerPlatform, MSBlast

(Sorry, just cleaned someone's Compaq a couple days ago which was of similar specs. Over 400 instances of spyware in Ad-Aware and another 50 or so in Spybot)

Re:Levels for Joe User

[Zorilla]

The parent was modded offtopic. May I ask why?

Seriously, even a third-grader knows what "offtopic" means.

Re:Levels for Joe User

[Anonymous Coward]

Level -0 computer: Athlon 2400+, 512 MB RAM, GeForce FX 5200, WeatherBug, CoolWebSearch, Bonzi Buddy, ShopAtHomeSelect, Claria, Alexa, Sasser, DiallerPlatform, MSBlast PLUS an extended warranty.

Re:Need a way to justify inability to ramp up spee

[Warlock7]

They're the ones making the suggestion. It's not as if this type of suggestion hasn't been made many times by other companies in the past. Yet, for some reason it wasn't supposedly credible until now.

So you have to recalculate every month?

[CausticPuppy]

That works as long as you are talking about only one point in time.

Say you have a "level $700" PC this year.

2 years from now, you buy a program that requires a "level $700" PC. Will your PC be able to run it?

So, you will have to constantly recalculate what level your PC is. Your "level $700" PC will turn into a "level $500" PC in 3 months, and in 2 years, it will be a "level donate-for-a-tax-writeoff" PC.

You'll need to have some sort of equation to determine your current computer level based on the level at the time of purchase, and the time elapsed since purchase, and... well that makes even AMD and Intel's new processor naming schemes seem like good ideas by comparison.

Re:So you have to recalculate every month?

[Kehvarl]

well, how about you define it in terms of 700:04 indicating a $700 PC from 2004? You can even use 2004 instead of 04 to avoid that nasty 2104 confusion.

Re:So you have to recalculate every month?

[Anonymous Coward]

except the price of your $700 computer drops at the same time. So in order for that to work, one would have to know the current value of their machine. That said, it's a dumb idea to even think of "levels" for computers that won't work and will only confuse the consumer in the end.

Great Idea

[nuggz]

I like this, it will make things much easier.
Right now a box says stuff like 400MHz processor, 256MB Ram, DVD drive etc.
Making it nice and simple will help, people don't care what CPU they have Intel, Celeron, Pentium, Duron, Athlon, FX ..... who cares, it's all gibberish to the average person. Heck it's all a mess even crap to me.

It may not appeal to you, but it will appeal to the thousands of people who bought "Deer Hunter".

Dumb

[Anonymous Coward]

Because 4 years from now when someone says they have a level 6 computer from today and its no longer level 6. Do they plan on sending you a memo every month telling you your computer has now been degraded in class.

Retarded!

They miss the point

[mod_parent_down]

According to Lester, the plan is to simplify the process of selecting a good PC for games without having to be an expert on hardware

But people LIKE being experts on hardware. They love shopping around for more gigamegs, and feeling like they got the best deal on SPRDPR2.0 XRAM with a 933FHz Sideways Bus.

One number? I mean, how boring would that be?

7EEtSe7eN: I runz a flat 7, be0tch.
Sw33t6ix: sheeet i only be 6 straight up.
7EEtSe7eN: 0wnz3d!!!1!!11!

Needs to be said....

[Anonymous Coward]

But these go to eleven!

My computer has a +3 video card equipped...

[digital photo]

Pure ridiculous BS. While you can measure particular performance, you can't measure absolute performance, which is what would be needed for an actually useful "level" rating. But since software needs and processing power keeps increasing, the level rating, as others have pointed out, would be meaningless beyond the point in time when it is issued.

Though to be fair, if your task is purely computational, then your ownly concerns would be processing power. In which case, there is already a scale for that: MIPS.

Once you toss in video, disk storage, etc... all bets are off. Now it depends on what you are doing and how you are doing it.

So you might as well say you have a 900Mips computer with a +500Mips Graphics card. And you are running software which requires at least CPU Mips and 75 Video Mips.

Which is not unlike the current system of Required hardware config and Recommended hardware config. Though I like the Mips rating better since that would let me know how well the game would actually run on a particular computer.

Re:Need a way to justify inability to ramp up spee

[raodin]

Yeah, MS just can't figure out a way to stuff more transistors in "their" processors.

MS could care less how fast your computer is.. as long as they can sell you a license for Office 20xx every year.

Christ

[Television Set]

Giving computer level designations has got to be the stupid idea I've heard all week. Reading slashdot, I've heard plenty of stupid ideas, but this takes the case.

Leave it to freaking Microsoft.

Macs Screwed by this?

[njfuzzy]

This could become one more way to marginalize non-Microsoft gaming. Yes, I mean Apple computers.

No machine that isn't oranges-to-oranges comparable with wintel will be eligible. I know Macs lag considerably on gaming performance, but the perceived lag will be even greater if they don't even have a rating.

perhaps

[geekoid]

Level7_2004.

Then products can say there min. reqs are level7_2004

example:
Doom 3 Min. Req. Level 10_2005

Re:perhaps

[Carnildo]

Level7_2004.

Then products can say there min. reqs are level7_2004

example:
Doom 3 Min. Req. Level 10_2005

Let's say I have a "Level 8_2006" computer. Will a "Level 10_2005" package run on it?

Re:perhaps

[maxume]

It wouldn't be a huge burden to just list, say 10 different years, would it? If you even ran on that much hardware. It is more likely that there would only need to be 3 or 4 years listed, as anything older would be uselessly slow.

Re:perhaps

[Carnildo]

I repeat: Pretend I have a "Level 8_2006" computer. Doom 3 came out in 2004 and says it needs a "Level 10_2005 or Level 10_2004" computer. Can I run it?

Re:perhaps

[maxume]

yeah, oops, didn't read that quite right. It's not great but perhaps there could be a table(on the web, provided with the system, etc.) that told you what the 2005 and 2004 levels of your 2006 computer are. I'm not sure that a system of levels really helps with anything, which seems to be your point, but there seem to be straightforward ways of dealing with most of the issues, and it just might be easier than the specs, at least for some people.

For the Rest of Us

[Doc Ruby]

Apple has created an empire out of that scheme, and most people hate it - the rest love it.

Dumbing It Down Will Only Hurt Us

[the0ther]

I was just talking today about how users are so stupid that the states should begin to license computer users. They do it with cars, I figure, so why not computers? And now along comes Slashdot telling me that we should make it easier for Joe Sixpack to buy/use a computer? Puh-leeze.

Re:Dumbing It Down Will Only Hurt Us

[csimpkin]

I know a lot of people with a license to drive a car that have no buisness being behing the wheel.

MMOPC!

[Maul]

Just like in EQ, only the most uber hard core elite players who spend gobs of time and money will be able to level their PCs up to level 99 and afford the most l33t equips (case mods).

Brilliant!

Re:MMOPC!

[OverflowingBitBucket]

I can just see groups of people hanging around outside computer stores waiting for the Level 12 PC to spawn so that they can take it out.

MPC?

[crombie]

Wasn't this same idea called MPC sometime back and it eventually failed?

http://www.maran.com/dictionary/m/mpc/

Details, not numbers

[Sean80]

I myself think far better to have standard "capabilities" than standard "levels." I believe I've already seen most marketing material do this. For example, a computer could designate itself as "Web Browsing" aka Level 1, or "Word Processing" aka Level 2, and so forth. Again, my gold standard is always my mom. Level 1, huh? she says. What the hell does that mean? she says.

This idea isn't revolutionary, but I think what could be is saying that Level 8 is a gaming machine with a very precise configuration that manufacturers have to build to, and, say, game developers saying that all of their games will run well on such and such a level. Pretty much the standardization that consoles give us, but on a PC. Never, ever have I had to worry whether an XBox game will run well on my rig. If only I had that luxury on a PC.

One word: condescending

[DogDude]

This whole thing strikes me as horribly condescending, although perhaps its the logical extension of the Intel/AMD/Cyrix "Performance Rating" stupidity. And if so, does Joe Sixpack DESERVE the condescension, for buying into the crap before?

No, what's condescending is you essentially calling everyone who doesn't spend their days pouring over chip specs idiots. Believe it or not, there are those of us out there who don't know what the latest Intel/AMD specs are and who, quite honestly, couldn't care less. This is actually a good idea (again, for those few ignorant souls on the planet who don't know the difference between an Intel P4/2000abc and an AMD 12098345689).

Stupid marketing idea, that's all

[FearUncertaintyDoubt]

hmm...levels. Now consumers will have an objective gauge for their computer's performance. It's hard, though, when you only have, say levels 1-10. And it doesn't say much in the way of relative performance. Does a level 1 10% have as much performance as a level 10? Also, as someone pointed out, as hardware progresses, you'll need higher and higher numbers.

Maybe the solution is to have standards by which performance is measured. Someone could write software which evaluates a computer's performance and assigns a numerical value. Then consumers could use that as a guide. We could call it a "bench mark". Then people could get into all sorts of flame wars about these "bench marks", and how they are computed, and which one to use, and so on...

Understandable...

[FirstTimeCaller]

OK, I didn't RTFA (goes without saying, right?) but I can understand the desire to simplify things. Go into any Walmart, pick up any game box and figure out if it will work on your PC.

Does it have a fast enough processor? Enough memory? Enough disk space? Is your video card up to the task (Direct X version)? Is your internet bandwidth sufficient? What about the OS (including service packs)?

OK, this may not be difficult for those of us with years of computer experience (except for the font size of the information -- damn these aging eyes). But imagine the neophyte user trying to figure all this out. I can certainly understand the desire to boil it all down to a single number -- you MUST have a level X computer to run this game!

Unfortunately, such a system is probably impractical and of limited usefulness for all the reasons cited in the other posts.

Re:Understandable...

[polyp2000]

you MUST have a level X computer to run this game!

I havent RTFA (seems to be slashdotted or something wrong with ntl (again)) but how does the level system encompass operating system type?

eg: say my linux box qualifies as a "level 7" system and I go down to my local games shop and buy a copy of doom that says "Works On Level 7 Computers & Upwards" should I be getting in touch with trading standards cus it didnt specify Windows XP SP2 ?

Is this a cunning way to remove the operating system meme from consumers minds?

Nick ...

Older server

[genkael]

Older servers, in the '80s and early '90s were often crippled in this way. If you wanted additional storage, you could call support and order additional blocks of space on your hard drive. Basically this is nothing more than increasing the size of your filesystem. What MS is proposing is nothing more than "bandwidth throttling", so to speak, for all of your hardware.

Decrement

[TheTick]

So let's say that on Saturday, I run down to Megalomart and buy my Level 7. It's a remainder and on clearance, so although the case clearly says 7, it's really a Level 5.

Then on Monday, it's a 4.

Tuesday, it's a 3.

...

Re:Decrement

[mpeach]

Exactly what I was thinking. Has MS forgot that a machine that is one level will change into another soon? Or is the scale going to be forever increasing so the levels can stay static? It would be a simple system if it made any sense.

Good Luck!

[graphicsguy]

Look at successful hardware vendors, such as Dell. One of the reasons they are so popular is _because_ they allow people to configure their hardware _their way_. They already have different classes of machines as well, so this proposal seems pretty redundant.

This could work.

[Minwee]

It puts buying decisions into a familiar context.

"Wow, Doom 4 is out!"

"No way dude, that game cons red to your computer."

Now the only problem is how to get more RAM and a better video card by smacking rats over the head with your keyboard, but that's something for the engineers to figure out.

"His Power Level is Over 5000!"

[Databass]

Yup. Like Goku, your power level will just keep increasing over time.

A few one-liners:

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Windows Goddamn -- What is YOUR level?

2) People will be selling XP on e-bay so you can level up.

3) Just like the richter scale, it'll predict how fscked up your computer can get.

4) From the pages of Pokemon: PCI Express, I choose youuuuuuuu!

5) Will you have to win the IT Boss battle to upgrade your work PC to the next level?

6) You can press 007-373-5963 on your keypad to skip to the Mike Tyson level...which won't cost you an arm and a leg but will require an ear.

Re:A few one-liners:

[dgagley]

Your computer will have score points. As you progress you gain points.

your points - 23,189 Next level - 50,000

"Soon you will be a jedi son"

Amen for including amount of RAM

[badmonkey]

Joe consumer never buys machines with enough RAM- because Dell etc make a big deal about their systems having 4.0 Ghz processors, but in the smaller print, the system comes with something like a paltry 128 Megs of RAM. If the level system implies an acceptable amount of ram, then that's great.

This remindes me of the "multimedia levels"

[sponger]

remember MMC1 and MMC2 if you had a 2X cdrom and a 486 vs a cd X1 and 386SX etc etc

These sort of levels are ludacris because someone may want a slow procesor with a lots of RAM..

computers are to specialized for this...
I see this only working for SPECIFIC VENDORS

like get your level 1 dell or your level 8 dell
not across the board systems though-

No need for the transitive verb there, mate!

[Thud457]

It's always been that way.

Not so much that the majority is dumb, more that they just don't care about all the minutae that the elite get their panties in a bunch about. Sort of like that "Swift Boat Vets for Truth" thang.

why does microsoft even care?

[jpellino]

they make very little consequential pc hardware (keyboards, mice, discontinued wifi) - where does it matter for what they do?

unless they want to be clear about what the hw reqs are for a given sw package - and with karma to burn, he offered - won't they simply say that all ms bloat^H^H^H^H^Hsoftware needs level n+1 anyway?

or is it just another case of "we're from microsoft - we're here to help"

apple doesn't really do levels except with BTO they say good better best, and it's mostly the things that count, and those mostly in step - ram and hd and ghz and video sorta jump as one... additionally good better best is relative and numbers are absolute - tough to do for long.

Re:why does microsoft even care?

[finkployd]

Maybe they want to charge a graduated rate based on the "level" your computer is at?

Finkployd

AGH!

[cyanobyte]

I don't think I have heard anything so retarded in all my life. Oh, wait I have when the took clock speeds off of processors. Cyanobyte

How about seven levels of users?

[DrDebug]

That way, we could match the user level to the level of the computer.

Level 1 users (dweebs) would only use level one computers (toys).

Level 7 users (gurus) would use level seven computers (supercomputers). ..... Ah, just a thought.....

Rant on condescension

[Mr Guy]

I don't think it's unfair to expect anyone spending hundreds of dollars on a machine to have some idea what they are getting. People know more about their dishwashers than their computers.

It's a stupid idea, because it will encourage people to be even stupider in their buying decisions, so they can put more of their money into something that may STILL not fit their needs because they are willing to blindly trust the idiot from Best Buy who tells them, and this is a direct overheard quote, "You want to get the one with 801.11g because g is like several letters passed b so it's better security". They are just going to get screwed and screwed again as hardware mass-retailers sell them crap designed as Level X and pander to the lowest common denominator. Here in particular I'm thinking of all the people buying Celeron (and soon to be Semperon) chips and saying their computer should be powerful enough. They are going to get slaughtered in this system because now they have TWO imaginary numbers to look at to justify why they have to spend more money to get a "better" computer now instead of just buying quality in the first place.

This system is brain dead stupid until it comes up with a REAL way to qualify and benchmark performance, which, in case you haven't noticed, no one has come up with a great way yet because (and this may be shocking to you) those "few ignorant souls" don't run the same programs in the same configurations in the same way as everyone else. One size does not fit all, and X never, ever marks the spot.

You and I both know, I'm sure, dozens of people who would NEVER be dumb enough to believe that Ford or GM just magically knows how they want to drive their car, and would never blindly take the advice of a used car salesmen, yet these same people who would go and get a knowledgable friend to go with them to the showroom will walk into a Gateway store and expect the "trained" salestaff to divine what's best for them, and not just whatever happens to fit into their budget. Anyone who doesn't want to know doesn't have to care, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't ask the advice of someone who does know and can help them avoid making stupid mistakes.

Remember who you are selling to

[TiggertheMad]

Everybody seems to either be telling D&D jokes or flaming the idea. Keep in mind that most people that use computers are dumb as dirt on the topic. I worked at ChimpUSA in college, and it really opened my eyes. A very common question would involve someone shoving a new game at me and saying, 'I have a dell. Will this run?'.

While several people have pointed out that a L8 video card will not make a L3 system into a L8 system, at least you have a baseline language to work with.

I suspect they want this so software vendors can slap a sticker on a box that says 'Level 8' system required. It's not a perfect system, but it beats having ignorant sales people try to explain video card ram and HD seek times to Ma and Pa Kettle.

Re:Remember who you are selling to

[Anonymous Coward]

Even better, what about adding a year to the level? L5-2004 is probably as good as L10-2002... All you would have to do is figure out the depreciation values to correspond with the date. I think that the software venders should be able to specify the value for what it should run.

Re:Remember who you are selling to

[archen]

IMHO it sound good in theory, but it's just going to be another set of numbers to confuse people. Maybe a L8 video card would make a system into an L4. But if you look on the box for the card, the card was rated at L8 months ago - now it's actually an L5. The other option is that you just incrament numbers. That's going to be pretty annoying since different components advance at a different rate. Processors will advance levels extremely fast, Mainboards very slow. Hard drives may have an 'L' rating, but then do I want a bigger 'L' or do I want more space? How come the one with more space is slower?

So I don't think it's going to help the situation. In the end it's still going to come down to two questions to the sales person.
"How much do you want to spend?"
"What are you going to use it for?"

Re:Remember who you are selling to

[Yenin]

Are you crazy? The whole economy is based on being able to sell people stuff they don't need for twice what it's worth. If suddenly there was a way for the average person to know what he needed, the whole industry could collapse.

Lucky for us, the system would not really be telling consumers what they needed. Its purpose would be to convince consumers that they need the latest product.

Instead of dealing with ignorant customers, you will be dealing with ignorant customers who think they know what they are doing.

Re:Remember who you are selling to

[bforsse]

I don't think the obfuscation from real hardware terminology is necessary. Just like the renaming of processor models by AMD or RAM speeds was unnecessary. If consumers can keep track of something labelled "Level X" then they can keep track of something called "X Gigahertz" or "X Megabytes". If a potential computer owner can't understand that the bigger X is better (usually) then they should be shopping with the help of a knowledgable friend.

It's like someone shopping for tires pointing at a tire and asking "I have a Ford, will this work?" If you don't have at least some understanding of the features of a product or are unwilling to learn some of the basics (eg. car model, year), it would be unwise to spend lots of money on accessories, like software or tires.

Re:Remember who you are selling to

[cplusplus]

I used to work at ChimpUSA, also. Sometimes people would ask, "I have a Packard Bell... will this run?"

The moment they said 'Packard-Bell' I knew the answer was "NO" regardless of how fast or how much RAM the pile of junk had.

Re:Remember who you are selling to

[EvilIdler]

Not all people *here* are dumb as dirt. They can see how stupid
the idea actually is.

Re:Remember who you are selling to

[skiman1979]

Agreed. Not sure why so many people are flaming the idea. As I've said before, software does the same thing. Slackware 9, Slackware 10, Mandrake 9, 10, etc. Each is a baseline. Of course you can get any of these and customize it by adding more packages or rolling a new kernel, just like you can drop more RAM into a "Level 5" system. But the baseline versions can still be there for other users.

always thought.....

[Anonymous Coward]

I always thought the big complaint of open source was code forking (although in my experience code forking has been a good thing...ie x.org) now microsoft which already has several versions of thier OS from legacy but now they want to create levels (upto 7) different versions of there OS.....

stendec@gmail.com

Assigning a simple level "number" would be far too

[Alphi1]

There's no way that this would be the solution that they want it to be... I mean, sure, you can say that in broad terms a "level 5" is better than a "level 3" computer. But does that mean it'd meet the specifications of a certain game?

Especially when you can improve so many different things on a computer.

For example, to improve a computer (often) you can add RAM. Another way you can improve is to add a better/faster video card.

Let's assume that a computer with 512MB of RAM and a "medium" video card is rated level 3. If you then upgrade that computer to 1GB of RAM while keeping the same video card, would that be enough to (hypothetically) increase it to level 4? What about keeping the 512MB, but moving up to a "good" video card, would that increase it to level 4?

As you see, from this example, there's already two possibilities as to what "level 4" might mean...

Another example: let's say that a 256MB machine with a "low" video card is called a Level 1, and that a 512MB machine with a "medium" video card is called Level 2.

What happens if you take a Level 1 (by that definition), and quadruple the memory to 1GB, so now you have a 1GB machine with a "low" video card. Is that still a level 1? Or does that upgrade it a Level 2? Or since it has more memory than the "stock" level 2, does that even make it a Level 3?

Both of these examples illustrate how ugly it could get, and that's assuming that only two things (in this case, RAM and video card) can be upgraded.

In reality, it's going to be more than that. At very least we'd add CPU plus motherboard/chipset to that, I'd think, and that would just increase the complexity exponentially!

Sure, let's try relative ratings

[philipkd]

This is interesting. Moore's Law has become so internalized that my current computer's absolute speed is irrelevant. What's relevant is how fast it is compared to the average speed. This determines whether I'm capable of running cutting-edge apps or only allowed to web surf.

CEOs and such always say, "give me the top-of-the-line." Joe consumer says, "I just want something that can take care of the basics." So given these consumer scenarios, it makes sense to mask the actual guts of the machine and just give it a level rating. (maybe provide a software that gauges the level, so that pre-owned models, when re-sold, get calibrated).

Also, this is important because there are so many numbers these days--megs of ram, gigaflops, gigaherz, bus speed--that it's hard to tell whether the latest iMac G5 is a higher class than my current custom-built workstation. By certain numbers, like Ghz etc., gigaflops whatever, theirs is faster. But based on my tests of trying to open and close Photoshop CS, my old AMD 2000+ does it in half the speed.

The problem with this is...

[mark-t]

It's too narrow minded.

In particular, the concept of "level" is one dimensional, and there are too many different and largely orthogonal aspects to a home computer that could potentially be requirements for software in order to just sum it all up in one number.

Mine goes up to 11...

[bokmann]

It gives my games that 'extra edge'.

Oh My, How Innovative!

[cmacb]

Yet another instance of Microsoft trying to tell hardware makers how to run their business, but not wanting to take the risks themselves.

Look, they have plenty of money to start their own PC component integration business. There is very little doubt in fact, that if they were to go head-to-head with the Dell's and Compaq...err HP's of this world that they *could* do rather well and could indeed set the standards for the PC world.

Another ten years and there will be no U.S. company in the desktop computer hardware business, other than perhaps a few who integrate components for business servers. If MS wants to make the XBox into a general purpose desktop computer, fine... go for it. But I predict that their market share will look a lot like Apple's, or worse if the OS that they put out favors their own hardware.

The last thing we need is for PC hardware to stay in lock-step with a company as, um, "innovative" as Microsoft.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Kramer thought of it first, didn't he?

[chud67]

Isn't this like the time Kramer talked about building different levels in his apartment, with pillows on them?

MPC

[edgore]

Isn't this just a revisting of the old MPC classificaiton system that didn't work either?

Leveling up!

[dethl]

Lv. 6 Dell attacks Lv. 3 HP, dealing 500 damage.
Lv. 3 HP is DEAD!
Dell gains 400 experience.
HP dropped 5 gold.

Dell has gained a level!
RAM: +128MB
Processor: +500mhz
Graphics: +Nvidia 5200FX

Ok, I had to do that. Karma burn ahoy!

Who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

Even if the idea takes off, game publishers will still abuse the system by listing minimum requirements that don't make for a playable game. What does it matter whether it's a bunch of system requirements or a "level 5" as long as I'm getting 10 fps on a system that was supposedly good enough to run the game?

Tanks have over 1000 horsepower. . .

[TimmyDee]

Why can't we just be informed consumers? When you go to buy a car, you don't just look at horsepower and the size of the tires. OK, maybe some people do, but I wouldn't call them informed. What needs to happen is people need to know that an AMD or PowerPC at a lower clock speed will offer similar or better performance to an Intel offering or that a dedicated GPUs is better than shared memory. It's all analogous to why a Mazda RX-8 with 247 hp is a faster and significantly more agile car than a 340 hp Chrysler 300.

In case you don't get the joke....

[Anonymous Coward]

From "This is Spinal Tap"

Nigel Tufnel : The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...
Marty DiBergi : Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?
Nigel Tufnel : Exactly.
Marty DiBergi : Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel Tufnel : Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?
Marty DiBergi : I don't know.
Nigel Tufnel : Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty DiBergi : Put it up to eleven.
Nigel Tufnel : Eleven. Exactly. One louder.
Marty DiBergi : Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?
Nigel Tufnel : [Pause] These go to eleven.

Microsoft's Shame

[Sophrosyne]

The only reason they are bra-sizing hardware is so that they can hide their shame to the world when they release the specs for longhorn.
My Computer has Double D's

Isn't this...

[mpaon]

...what benchmarks are for? If anything, Microsoft should come up with some universal benchmark suite that compares your results with some average yearly values and gives you a rating. Of course, it would only work in windows, and suggest that you upgrade to the latest version at every opportunity... in order to maximize "performance" (profit)

Warp level Five, You Idiot

[Mulletproof]

Off topic???????? Do I REALLY need to spell it out to the idiot mod with an IQ of two??? Translation: This "level" scale is totally defunct for the very fact that the top end of this scale is in a continuous evolution. Your Level 10 computer is always a moving target depending on time and technology, so a fixed scale is ultimately meaningless. KINDA LIKE how Star Trek revised their warp scales as a rationalisation that warp is faster in the future from TOS to ST:TNG.

I swear, who gives these retards mod points anyway?

Idiocy

[The-Bus]

The heart is in the right place. But levels might be too confusing. Some other thoughts:

Have a series of different benchmarks. Let's say, a database app. Then we have some sort of encoding. Then we have a couple of gaming benchmarks. So in the end you're left with a report card. So for example, Dell's Insinuon 3400XT can do:

OfficeBoooost(TM): 93.23/s
DataMerge(TM): 2103s
VideoN-Code(TM): 3402s
GameTronix(TM): 67.2 FPS
CompyCompil-O(TM): 3049s
DataGRAB(TM): 56.4MB/s

But then you see Compaq's Avera-G 32 can do:

OfficeBoooost(TM): 143.23/s
DataMerge(TM): 1731s
VideoN-Code(TM): 6230s
GameTronix(TM): 37.2 FPS
CompyCompil-O(TM): 451s
DataGRAB(TM):43.1MB/s

So Compaq seems to be a better at office and programming tasks, but not as good in gaming. Only thing is, this would all need to be done independently. So, sort of like the hardware review sites we have now, just not biased and more dumbed-down.

SharkyExtreme has been doing different "dream systems" for years now... The entry level gaming system + what it should have all the way to the Balls-Out millionaire system that does Doom3 at 1600x1200 in 64-bit color with textures turned on at 5.7fps.

Rank

[Rassleholic]

This reminds me of when I wanted to play Star Trek when I was little. I would say I'm captain and about a dozen others would start saying "well I'm 2nd captain, well I'm 3rd captain, well I'm 4th captain, well I'm 5th captain....." and so on.

Decals

[standsolid]

The type-S sticker on my PC case makes it at least 2 levels higher...

Don't forget the swell racing stripe^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H cathode lights! Those blue lights make it at least 3 levels faster than yours!

Who determines the levels?

[HockeyPuck]

Does an independent testing body determine the levels or do the hardware vendors themselves police these ratings?

Its a good intention to make it easier for non-techies to determine how much computer is needed for a specific app.... lame in execution.

The GNU/Linux connection

[wikinerd]

* Label PCs with M$ with "Level 10"
* Label PCs with GNU/Linux with "Level 0"
* ???
* Profit!!!

Re:typo...

[KillerCow]

*sigh*
"There is fiscal reason..." = "There is no fiscal reason...

My gaming rig

[nsayer]

I have a level 5 Athlon with a +2 video card of OpenGL and a +1 bank of memory. Unfortunately, I went to eBay and got saddled with a -3 sound card of Aureal.

Time to play Doom 3. Roll 1d20.

Multimedia Personal Computer

[Uhlek]

The SPA tried this in the 90s with the MPC certification. Around nine months after that, technology had advanced to the point where they h ad the MPC2. Add another nine months, the MPC3.

The idea was the same -- games rated for a particular cert would play on a machine rated for that.

But, with the fast rate of changes, they essentially cancelled the program because of the headaches involved. Plus, game marketing didn't like it because if a game was labeled "MPC2", when MPC3 came out that made the game seem old.

Oh, well, those that don't learn from history...

Performance META data

[owlstead]

Having one number obviously is a rather stupid mechanism to measure performance and/or expandabitity. But sometimes I wonder if a bit more information on the system would change things for the better.

Lets say we use just the raw performance (triangles per second for a video card, mb/sec for a hard disk, mb/sec for ethernet and MIPS for processors (maybe some FIPS as well). Games and other applications can look for those numbers at install time and try to optimize their performance according to those numbers. Or advise the user to upgrade.

Take for instance Nero. There is a utility in there to check the hard disk performance. It does that by reading from the mentioned hard disk and hoping that the indexing function is not running at the same time. I mean, I *KNOW* I've got a fast hard disk, and so should the computer.

If we want to make smarter, more intuitive, computers, lets start with making the computer more self aware first.

Fragment the market so no one competes

[gelfling]

Windows Longhorn 2006 for level 10
Windows Longhorn 2006 for level 9
Windows Longhorn 2006 for level 8
Windows Longhorn 2006 for level 7
Windows Longhorn 2006 for level 6
Windows Longhorn 2006 for level 5
Windows Longhorn 2006 for level 4
Windows Longhorn 2006 for level 3
Windows Longhorn 2006 for level 2
Windows Longhorn 2006 for level 1
Windows Longhorn 2006 for level 0
Windows Longhorn 2006 for level 10 SP1..
and so on
Windows streaming video standard for level 10
Windows streaming video standard for level 9
Windows streaming video standard for level 8
Windows yadda yadda blah blah

Linux branded hardware will contain NO level certification, uh I mean labelling - think I'm kidding? I am not.

Level 666

[LabRat007]

The system of the Beast!

Re:Level 666

[dethl]

That must be the special edition put out by Microsoft.

level 5 vegan

[wahsapa]

I'm a level 5 vegan; I don't eat anything that casts a shadow

Leave it to Microsoft...

[Anonymous Coward]

... to come up with such a stupid idea.

This'll never work.

Maybe Microsoft would be better off using their resources to make Windows a better OS, everyone knows their OS is bad and in dire need of improvement.

Until then, I'll keep using Linux, thank you.

Reverse the order and it's not a bad idea

[gcondon]

Every year, define some level of computational power (ops, memory, storage, what have you) as the current state-of-the art and call it "Level 0".

Then just increment the "Level" of your computer each year to indicate the number of years ago that it was state of the art.

Therefore, the top-end machine every year will be Level 0 (current top dog), the mid-range is level 1 (last year's screamer), and level 3 fill out the bargin bins.

And for all the D&D fans, in this scenario experience points would be equal to "leveling up".

Tech Support Nightmare...

[bozendoka]

Luser: "Um, hi, yeah, I can't get Doom XV to start on my PC."

Tech: "Well, let's see here. What level is your PC?"

L: "Huh? Level?"

T: "*sigh* It's on the big sticker on the front of your PC."

L: "Oh, THAT level! Um, it says level 15."

T: "Well, there's your problem; Doom XV needs a level 16 PC, minimum."

L: "Wha...But...I just bought this PC two weeks ago!"

T: "I'm sorry sir, but it does say clearly on the package..."

L: "But the guy in the store said it would run!"

T: "Well, if they said that, you could try returning it..."

L: "They said they don't take returns! Is there anything I can do to get my PC to work?"

T: "No, I'm sorry, you need a level 16 PC."

L: "LOOK, I PAID A LOT OF MONEY FOR THIS GAME, AND YOU'RE GOING TO TELL ME HOW TO GET IT TO RUN!!"

T: "Okay, listen, I'm not supposed to tell anyone, but..."

L: "Yeah? Yeah?"

T: "Go to killmypc.com and click on the link to infoct your PC with the Win128_Fuxor virus. If your PC can kill it, it should make level 16."

L: "Really?"

T: "Uh, yeah. Good luck with that" *click*

What about my computer?

[maxter3185]

What do I have? a minus five (-5) PC???

Self-rating computers

[jhemmila]

How about putting an LED display on the tower that shows the level? and every week or so, the computer connects to a centralized database, uploads its specs, and receives a rating. If you get downgraded, it offers upgrade suggestions.

Re:Self-rating computers

[nelsonal]

This actually works well, as the database (or local test suite) could factor in all sorts of performance metrics that could change as time changes.

on the right track....

[scottnews]

I sell computers on the side, and I do the same thing. There are 3 things that MS is wrong about...

1. Don't use Levels. That doesn't tell the user anything. The Imac did good because it seemed easy. A level tells the user nothing and is not easy. I sell PCs with security, audio, video, photo, and game options. Options is the keyword here.

2. Base the Levels or Options on the software alone. do not tie it in with hardware. Hardware is a moving target.

3. MS can not do this. The average user just wants to use the PC without training. Training is what they need and what I provide. I bundle their PC with the security option with a router, sofware firewall, alternative browser and email. I give threm printed tutorials on the best way to use these things. If they need a housecall, they they can buy that service to. MS can not do these things. In its attempt to be everything to everyone, MS is tripping itself up again.

Collusion comes to mind: Categorize requirements

[tyrione]

This smacks of collusion between Microsoft and the hardware vendors.

If Microsoft designates a level version of Longhorn and with it a similiar requirements range in third party hardware both the Hardware vendors and Microsoft force pricing on the market, moreso than they already do.

Solution: LINUX, FreeBSD, etc...

Problem: Video Hardware that has level awareness notification tags built-into their systems that are probed by the boot process and stay inactive if the system has an improper Level/mixed Level configuration. This results in people being pigeon-holed into a certain configuration or forced to upgrade an entire system, at once, in order to play the latest games. Great for hardware suppliers. A nightmare for clone vendors trying whose current strength is offering a mix'n'match approach to 3rd party PC hardware. This would bite Microsoft in the ass more than they want to realize.

Right now the gaming market drives the video card and hardware markets.

My question would be the only way this benefits Microsoft is in the area of support and lawsuit protection. If they can minimize the number of hardware combinations they need to support then they limit their arm of liability.

Just a few thoughts..

MOD PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

Although bitching about microsoft can be fun, parent makes a good point.

Palladium

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the big fuss about? We all knew this was coming.

The entire idea with Palladium is you have a console. MSFT and Intel and everyone else that abides by Palladium will adhere to the standards, and there will be only one standard. Once the whole encryption system is put into use, you have the choices that MSFT chooses to provide you with.

Same thing with consoles today. The Playstation 2 is more powerful than the Playstation 3. The Xbox 2 is more powerful than the Xbox 1. And the fucking Phantom is just that; a figment of it's investors' imaginations.

This isn't anything new. If it caught some by surprise, then you aren't paying attention to the MARKET , and MSFT's vision of said market.

It's your bad, not anyone else's.

Obligatory Spinal Tap reference

[Anonymous Coward]

with a Level 11 computer

It's just marketing ploy to foist on a non-tech saavy public. The actual features just confused them and made them suspicious that they were being put upon. Now it will be easy. The bigger the number, the better obviously.

MPC, MPC2, MPC?

[adolfojp]

Reminds me of the MPC Muntimedia PC specification. Of course we all know how well that worked.

Cheers

Adolfo

Dungeons and Dragons meets the PC?

[Dhar]

So, uh, where do I buy a Hard Drive of Infinite Speed +5?

-g.

Re:Dungeons and Dragons meets the PC?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can we multiclass? Can we use the AD&D rules or d20?

Mod Parent Up

[sense_net]

this is actually a pretty good idea. After, all the whole point of this is to make buying games easier for ignorant consumers.

The problem with pre-made computers . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem I have with pre-made computers and the reason I won't buy one is that the manufacturers have preconceived notions of what kind of hardware belongs together. Specifically, video cards and processors. If you want to buy a 2.4 GHz processor, your stuck with bottom of the line graphics cards. They don't seem to realize that a 2.4 GHz processor with a $200 graphics card will run modern games very well. But to the manufacturers, to get the $200 video card, you have to buy the 3.0 GHz processor, which priced it out of my league. It seems that making levels would exacerbate this problem.

It should be noted that Dell and the like are getting better about this problem and do allow more choices than they did 3-4 years ago, when the example I gave above (adjusted for processor speed) was the rule rather than the exception. The examples I gave are hypothetical.

I've seen this before

[UnknowingFool]

Didn't somebody already describe the levels of computers with Windows installed? I thought it was Dante:

Level 9: XP on a P4 3.2GHz, internet, SP2, behind Checkpoint firewall
. . .
Level 5: Win2K on a P4 1.7GHz, internet, SP4, no firewall
. . .
Level 1: Win95 on a Pentium I, internet connection, no patches, no firewall

Re:I've seen this before

[IWantMoreSpamPlease]

I know this is in jest, but considering all the viruses designed to target the latest MS OSes, I'd say surfing the Internet on a Win95 box is *more* secure than the XP one...(remember, Win95 didn't have IE 'integrated')

Sorry, I was feeling snippy today.

Isn't this already kind of true?

[Halcy0n]

I see computers as existing in 3 categories currently, and I really don't think we need to break it up anymore than that.

We have your "Value" systems, your "Business" systems, and then your "Gamer/Bleeding edge" boxes. Value is the lowest end hardware that is currently available without being ancient, while business systems are normally a little more powerful so those inpatient business types don't have to wait for Word to load, and then you have your gamers that feel the need to buy the fastest of everything on the market currently and then overclock it.

Sure, this is all still relative to the times, but it will always be that way.

What's a "pre-made" computer?

[n6kuy]

...one that's in kit form, I guess.

This kind of dumbing down just doesn't seem appropriate for someone who's planning to assemble his 'puter from a kit!

Seems like it would be more appropriate for POST-made computers that J. Random User buys...

Real Interviews

[superpulpsicle]

Interview with M$
Q: What do you think is the future gaming PC?
A: Level 1000 PC with virtual harddisk and super 3D engine. With games controlled with my nose.

Interview with ATI and Nvidia
Q: What do you think is the future gaming PC?
A: I hope our drivers work.

Re:Real Interviews

[niteice]

Interview with ATI Q: What do you think is the future gaming PC? A: One where the user can be our driver QA department. Interview with nVidia Q: What do you think is the future gaming PC? A: One where the user can install our drivers.

I can see the real problem now:

[Artifakt]

You hook the machines up to a LAN and your level 2 machine starts telling the most generic machine it's not a generic anymore, its a level 6. They fight, over by the green dome. Then a random Dell PC gets eaten by a big weather balloon, and something about an old fashioned penny-farthing bicycle... pyramids with eyes... ape masks... and all your mainframes get Shatnered!

Another Solution?

[Jane_Dozey]

How about an automatically updating program that could retrieve a list of games/programs that would run on a users current computer? All the user would have to do is look on the list to see if the games/programs they want to use are present.

Grand Canyon

[Shadow of Eternity]

Further widening the elitist gap in the gaming community. For as long as i've been a gamer, and a computor nut, i've had an experience that was unrivaled by any i've ever had in real life. The computing community as a whole has always been a unified one, supporting each other whenever necessary. This sort of elitest seperation between computor levels will serve no purpose but to widen the rift that has steadily been growing over the past several years. Computing has always been my safe haven from the prejudices of the world, and now it seems that were becoming just like the bigots of the real world. Maybe instead of trying to seperate everyone into "Levels" we should go back to the original goal of furthering humanities knowledge of the universe, and generally having a kickass time playing games chatting and whatnot. Whats next Mein Gates? "All macintosh users and sympathizers must wear a rainbow apple sewn on their clothes"? we really ought to stop imitating the real world.

Quoth Bill Gates . . . .

[Edunikki]

"No user will ever need more than a level 640k . . ."

Levels?

[OverflowingBitBucket]

Hmm... I can't see where this is going.

Shall we take it as given that MS want to control the level specification themselves?

Okay, minimum CPU specs (ignoring different architectures of course), amount of RAM, maybe disk space, hardware acceleration, sounds good so far! Minimum OpenGL extensions...

... oh hang on, let's be realistic. Minimum Direct3D extensions.

And you'll need an operating system with that PC... oh my, it seems level x+1 requires Longhorn.

Oh, the PC isn't shipped with the latest Windows operating system? No level y certification for you!

Re:Levels?

[LouCifer]

Its rediculous to try and compose a metric for system specs simply becuase "better" is entirely too qualatative a term when applied to PC's


I agree, but with a caveat:

Those people who are less technically-capable will find this easier to deal with when shopping. Everyone has a friend/family member whose less technical and who undoubtedly is eventually in the market for a system.

Some of us would rather they buy a prebuilt than nag us to build them a system.

Telling them to buy a Level 2 instead of a Level 9 system (especially if they're just using it for email and Word) is easier than telling them they need a 1.6 Ghz processor (can you get anything slower these days?) with 256MB of RAM, a 40GB drive (or smaller), etc, etc, etc.

what geek appeal

[maxpublic]

Here it is: the geek equivalent of dick-measuring, comparin the 'levels' of their computers to see who has the larger, er, more advanced machinery.

And this system will no doubt appeal to that class of geek who wastes most of his waking life on D&D-like games, the sort of person who bores you into homicidal despair with absurd tales about his "18th level gnome illusionist" or "12th level barbarian assassin". No doubt these little losers will jump up and down at the thought of their COMPUTERS having levels as well as their imaginary alternate egos.

Max

Bottleneck.

[blair1q]

There will always be one limiting factor. A machine with top-line processor, memory, and display would still be level 1 if its video driver hardware is shite.

level 3 is "necromancer"

[Anonymous Coward]

that is, if your comuter has enough experience points

Or in other words

[IBitOBear]

Variant-Billable DRM-able restricted configuration set-top-box-like standard configurations to which licensing restrictions and access restrictions can be automatically applied.

For instance: This windows license is valid for levels 1 to 4, if you would like to run this level 6 computer please fill out the additional licensing form and return to you Microsoft Sales Representative.

This will be no different than the old CPU-Count and User-Count licensing metrics.

They just want the Manufacturers' boxes to say "Level 5!" so that the customers don't fully understand that they are being reamed for extra money when the bill that comes from the Microsoft(tm) Windows(tm) Subscription Service is larger for you than for your neighbor.

I call bunk, and install Linux... 8-)

Re:grrr.. does that mean the level decays?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, neat. If you make the levels logarithmic, then they can decay sort of as a reverse-application of Moore's Law. Every 18 months, your PC loses a level.

"Yeah, this was a 5th level PC in 2001, but so many wraiths over the years. It's now 3rd level. Can't cast fireball anymore."

Spinal Tap Computers. Our Level goes to 11!

[Chas]

As has been noted elsewhere:

First, with such a wide variety of components, actually classifying an individual system quickly becomes an exercise in frustration.

Second, with the speed at which the platform advances, how do you keep a coherent performance benchmark to classify these computers? Or are we supposed to simply redefine our computers on a monthly basis?

I bought a Level 8 computer three months ago. Now it's only a Level 4. WTF!

Not to mention how do you actually ADVERTISE something like this? In big stores (Like Worst Buy, Sureit's Shitty, Fried, Gump USA, etc), product can sit on shelves for months on end before moving. ESPECIALLY the high-dollar items. Is that Level 5 computer a Level 5 computer NOW? Or was it a Level 5 computer six months ago, and now something that would be classified as a Level 3 computer?

If you want easy classifications, and the total lock-in on your platform this requires, go ahead and buy yourself a Crapple Muck system.

Please, stop trying to castrate a thriving, diverse platform.

It will become like cars

[LS]

Most people will eventually learn the bascic terminology for the major subsystems and will know to look for certain characteristics. No one buys a leve 4 car, do they? It just doesn't make sense.

LS

This is stupid

[WhiteWolf666]

Originally, I started writing this post with a way I thought it might be possible.

As I worked out the specifics, I decided that ANY way you slice it, this will be TOTALLY arbitrary, and will do NOTHING for consumers.

It will descend into a way for consumers to be hoodwinked into buying more substandard hardware, like they do now.

But this video card has 256MB of ram on it! It's the Best!!! It's Level 12! (Geforce FX 5200, PCI).

Worse, if Windows autocalculates a level, automagically (not that this would affect me anymore, I despise Windows, and refuse to use it) silly things might 'disqualify' a system. My gaming rig, for example, doesn't have any kind of CD/DVD drive.(No, I don't pirate, I either download(Savage), or Network mount/CD crack) You can bet that these 'levels' will require totally nonsensical configurations. (You need a Level 12 PC for Quake XI. Level 12 means you need to get a DVD+/-RW-Quad-layer).

In short, its hopeless. Fine if MS/HP/whoever wants to do it, but I pray that gaming companies don't start requiring certain 'levels' of computer for the games to work.

level what'd-he-say?

[Anonymous Coward]

all i want to know is... who advertises their "level 1" systems? who even *makes* level 1 systems?

They still do...

[spinlocked]

...but only with the most clueless consumers; government departments.

How many experience points for a Level 5 Server?

[Black Art]

So do the hackers get more experience points for killing the higher level servers or just better treasure values?

And how many points for the marketdroid that came up with this idea in the first place?

Game stores

[xombo]

This would make selling PC games at stores so much easier. Where I work I have to assist people with choosing PC games that will run on their system all the time and having a way for them to simply say they have an A7 system and I can point them toward Warcraft II Online would make my life easier. Instead, I have to walk them through looking at their hardware list and then pick and choose through the games and hope to God it works since they can't return a $50 piece of software.

Convenient

[ZeeCog]

Sweet. These will lend themselves very well to science fiction novels.

Obligatory gentoo joke

[Chris_Mir]

Run gentoo and gain a couple of free levels!

Hmm

[MP3Chuck]

A lot of flaming of this idea, but I don't think it's a bad one.

Suppose the next version of Windows has a little app that will tell the user what level of a computer it is? It could give a rundown:

• Processor: 3.2GHz - Level 8
• Memory: 2GB - Level 9
• Video Card: ATI Radeon 9800Pro XT - Level 8
• YOUR COMPUTER: Level 8
• Your computer can run software certified for Level 8 or below. Click here for information on how to increase your computer's level.

This can kill two birds with one stone. The user sees the essential info about their computer all in one place, it's simplified so that when they go to purchase software they only need to know one number, and they can find out what they need to do to get higher "levels." I don't see how it's a bad thing. Done right, it could make many people's lives a lot easier. The only problem I forsee is that levels would have to go perpetually upward as newer and better technology comes about.

you just know

[Anonymous Coward]

You just know a number 2 is going to be shit!

Yeah, that'll work

[ekhben]

Because a computer's power is definitely a one dimensional value. Yup, you can measure hard drive size, speed, processor speed, system memory, video card and display quality using a single linear value.

pfft.

Numbers are useless

[Kaenneth]

Without context.

"Microsoft Rated Gamer 5"
or
"Microsoft Rated Server 6"
or
"Microsoft Rated Applications 7"...

but then you need a year in that, so maybe something labeled like:

"Microsofot Hardward Rating:"... or

"MRHG5A7S6"

MUCH less confusing.

Re:Numbers are useless

[Kaenneth]

dang, got distracted in the middle of typing, ADHD meds not kicked in yet...

I mean "MHR05G5A7S6"

So much for...

[kn0tw0rk]

.. a level playing field :)

So if my pc is currently level 5 and in a years time its only rated at level 2, does this mean its been level drained?

The whole idea sounds bad, its like moving goal posts.

no moore's law? max level?

[recharged95]

I'll take level 42, cause it would be so powerful it should be able to answer the meaning of life. Sounds like an upper limit.

And if it crashes I can blame RIAA due to some band from the 80's.

Not likely...

[Nightcat The Otaku]

I doubt that will happen for quite some time, and it probably won't last long. Even if the processor market stalls for a little while because of the limitations imposed by the nature of silicon, there are plenty of alternatives to turn to that are being worked on now. These include biological, DNA-based processors, quantum computers--which are frighteningly fast, as a mere 80 entangled "qubits" has about 2.37 trillion times the power of a render farm--and optical circuits.

It's not likely that we'll see any of this tech in the near future, but eventually we will have to dump our beloved Element 14, and when that happens, one of these technologies might become the new silicon.

How about?

[promethean_spark]

They just come up with an uber-benchmark that combines a few handfulls of performance benchmarks in some sensible fashion. System X got a 1543, and system Y got a 1674. System Y is probably faster on average... If they start with nice single digit integers, they'll be up in the double and triple digits soon anyway. We used to count megahertz on fingers too...

Sounds kinda redundant to me.

[hurfy]

The only specs that keep a program from running would be video card and processor. Processor is pretty easy to ID when you buy a computer. At least as long as AMD or Cyrix or someone doesn't make a qxd3400 that really runs at 450MHZ! AMD is close to the edge, but there is some rough equivalancy still it seems.

All we really need is Nvidia to stop muddy the waters with those damn cards names made to confuse people!

There may be exceptions, but they would probably still be execeptions without a spec for levels that is harder to figure out than the real specs :(

On the other hand, with Hyperthreading and other stuff becoming moe common to increase power a standard for processor power or processor+video power could be handy for many.

Besides we already have levels:
$300
$400
$500
etc!

That's only a problem for mid-level users

[SuperKendall]

What happens to your text? That's right, the copy command basically ends up deleting your text (actually replaced with an unintended symbol) with no copy being made. Your work is gone with no backup.

If you are smart enough to use the keys, you are also able to figure out that it's "Apple-C" instead fairly quickly.

For users that are really simple, it will be very easy - because they'll just use the menu options which are under edit like they always are.

The "just works" part I would say refers more to things like the OS not surprizing you unpleasantly, or devices working without hassle (like bluetooth or wireless networking). Not so much about training for an app.

Re:That's only a problem for mid-level users

[Anonymous Coward]

As much as I adore my Mac, I have to call bullshit on the wireless stuff just working. Mind you, the only devices that seem to fail are Nokia ones (both a 6600 smart phone, which doesn't work at all anymore and their wireless DSL router, where I have to hold down control when I select it on the Airport menu).

OK arguably this could be Nokia's fault for making incompatible firmware, but since they still hold a pretty hefty chunk of the mobile phone market, I think Apple should put in a wee bit more effort to interoperate with their products. All I know is that my phone just doesn't work anymore.

Some questions...

[Reteo Varala]

What level would be a high-end database server?
What level would be a high-end rendering system?
What level would be a high-end gaming system?
What level would be a high-end workstation?

As I see it, those four requirements go in totally different directions in term of requirements, so cannot be put on a simple numbered system. Servers require high storage and availability, meaning improvements in storage. Rendering does intense computation meaning pure CPU performance. Gaming requires CPU, Video, and Memory performance, emphasis on video. Workstations would require a lot of RAM (concurrent productivity applications), quality input and output devices (one who works for hours at a console would thank you), and reliable connectivity.

Perhaps levels and classes together would be more appropriate?

GS1-GS10, SS1-SS10, CS1-CS10, PS1-PS10

GS for Gaming System
SS for Serving System
CS for Computation System
PS for Productivity System

Very Very Stupid Idea™

[Pan T. Hose]

A level system would be bastardized very quickly. There are so many possible permutations of hardware combinations that it would be difficult to even come up with general levels. You would instantly run into, for example, "Level 5 with the video card of a level 8." or "Level 7 but double the ram," ect., etc. You might also end up with "flavors" of a level such as maybe Dell's idea of a Level 5 ends up better than Compaq's. Once again, as I have often had occasion to say with regards to these type of ideas, we have a solution in search of a problem.

Not only that. As the article says: "He provided a hypothetical example that a PC with a 'level 5' designation might have a medium processor speed, amount of RAM, and mid-range video card, while a 'level 7' PC might have a faster processor, more RAM, and a higher-end video card."

What on Earth is a "medium processor speed"? Does it change every month? It has to change or otherwise we'll be buying "level 1373" computers in two years. If it changes than we'll be buying "year 2005 level 3" which is 3 times faster than "year 2003 level 3" or the same as "year 2004 level 4" or-- You get the point.

And of course God forbid I might want 4GB of RAM and 8GB of HDD in a 200MHz Pentium for a database server or 64MB of RAM in another 3GHz number crunching node with no hard drive (I do).

What next? "Levels" of cars? This is a Very Very Stupid Idea.(TM)

My PC...

[tsm_sf]

Mine goes to 11.

Sorry, am I too late?

Re:My PC...

[complete loony]

Yes

HOW IS THIS INSIGHTFUL?

[Anonymous Coward]

"but it really is to compete with Apple"

Huh? Apple only has 2% of the new computer market. Why would you steal the ideas of a company that is being outsold 50-1?

Hmm What level is Dual AMD Opteron

[Anonymous Coward]

With top video card raided hardrives and 2g of ram.

Note the only thing I have to run it to full strenth is a linux distros.

Before they start talking levels think why.

Just because they cannot get there os out the door it is not our problem. By using levels they can say we don't support level 10 yet lets hold it off for another 3 years.

Re:Need a way to justify inability to ramp up spee

[Warlock7]

Nice quote. Too bad that wasn't my point. Are those skid marks on your head, seeing as how the concept went right over it?

If they really could care less then why are they suggesting the new way to define the computers?

This article also was dealing with the X-Box 2. Sorry that you can't seem to see the writing on the wall here. When they start using the processors of IBM/Apple (G5, not Power 4 procs) in their hardware device there is a good reason to start trying to show that the speed alone isn't the deciding factor in the measurement of performance. Those procs don't hit 3+ GHz like in the machines that usually contain their OS. Since the development kit works on Intel procs too there is very good reason for them to dispel the myths that they have been involved in spreading for years.

Silly Idea...

[FauxReal]

Imagine having to keep track of the depreciation of levels of components in your computer as time goes by. HDDs would retain levels longer than RAM, which next would be video cards which would last a bit longer than CPUs and so on. The "levels" would start shifting disporportionately. Now imagine if you run a store and your hardware on the shelf has to be constantly rotated to keep then in the right "level" sections. But then again... more confusion in a seemingly simplified manner might help hardware sales through the use of confusion tactics that require people to relinquish thier credit cards.

already doing that

[digital01]

We basically have the same system running at the retail store im working for. basically its a three tier, basic, medium, and high-end. and as it was said in a previous post, most people who actually come into a retail store to buy a computer are either completly computer illiterate or they basically know the specs they are looking for. it'd help the beginners to start with, but would confuse the hell out of them in the long run once new levels are out and they start switching them up. i suppose its a good idea, but it has fatal flaws.

What about an independent measurement...?

[Glove d'OJ]

When I worked in the banking insudtry (ugh!) we were charged by our (unscrupulous?) vendor on an interesting licensing scheme... not # of boxes or # of CPUs, but by computing units.

They said that 1 CPU at 1GHz was the unit of measure, and it cost $n/year. If you had 2 @ 500MHz, that was 1 unit. 5 @ 2.0GHz was 10 units, etc.

This may be a solution to the above... instead of having levels for the computer's various parts (CPU of a level 6, but video of an 8, etc.), a standards body could come up with a weighted average of the computational effectiveness of the various parts... CPU is 50% of the average, memory 25%, video 15%, HDD space 10%, etc., and then rate them on a scale based upon a fixed point in time.

For example, if 1GHz PIII / 64 MB Video memory / 128 MB system memory / 40 GB HDD was the "standard", then a 2.0 GHz PIV with 256 MB vid / 1 GB memory / 200 GB drive space would have a rating of (2x @ 50%, 4x @ 15%, 8x @ 25% and 5x @ 10%) of 4.1 units.

Any thoughts?

[OT] Re:Two words:

[Old Wolf]

Hey. In your journal there is a thread where you whinge at Slashdot for not supporting Mozilla. The thread doesn't allow posting so that's why I'm posting here; in fact it is well known to be a Mozilla bug (there was some discussion of it in the most recent Mozilla article on slashdot).

"Wouldn't"

[gr3y]

Behold.

Don't be the guy who thinks Pink says, "Look, Mommy, there's no plane up in the sky."

Re:"Wouldn't"

[GoNINzo]

ah, okay, thanks, fixed. But I wouldn't always trust IMDB for exact quotes.

Re:"Wouldn't"

[gr3y]

Me either, but I've seen the movie so many times that I've practically memorized the script.

Computer levels

[humungusfungus]

general-manager/marketing-drone-speak.

'nuff said.

Level 11

[jimmydevice]

I assume that Microsoft has retained the services of Nigel Tufnel as Lead Architect?

This is stupid.

[PotatoHead]

The PC industry is about making the fastest machines at the lowest dollars. Personally I wish somebody would do a little design at the expense of speed, but that is another story.

Getting back to the levels. This is an attempt to qualtify what you are doing, then sell you a computer that fits. --The problem is that they all fit for almost everybody.

If Microsoft can get folks to buy into the level system, they can then certify hardware as being level 3 compliant, or some other such thing. Each year, they will put out little charts and graphs that equate their current bloat to the level guides. Hardware makers will get something new to talk about.

Most of us will get screwed because the level system will hide the actual specs and reduce the average persons awareness of what they are buying. They want to dumb this down because uninformed people more easily part with their money.

The current status quo looks bad for everyone really. Good hardware can be had for about $300. Legal software for that machine can easily triple that. More people are learning this lesson so something has to change to keep the dollars flowing.

Almost nobody in the industry wants people making their own PC's. The way things are right now, you can buy "made for windows" hardware, throw it into a cool case and you are good to go. (Of course, you should be running Linux, but that too is another story.) Specs are specs. People see a bundle and can shop around pretty easily.

Now lets talk about a Level 3 computer? What's inside? How does it compare to my P4 2Ghz.... ? Will hardware makers sell Level 3 kits? What if people want to choose different vendors?

It's all about the bundle. Microsoft has made their fortune bundling things together in ways that encourage people to buy. This bundling of hardware and terminology will simply allow them to better leverage their already strong dominant position in the hardware end of things.

It will be at our expense. (It always is.) Bundles limit choice. Where there is limited choice, people pay more.

No thanks, people are learning now. Might as well just let them continue to get smarter so they can make their own choices.

I do give Microsoft credit though. --It's a good move. Creative. Hope most folks know better.

Re:This is stupid.

[forkboy]

I don't think anyone's saying that you can't build your own PC. If you're that worried about what's inside the machine you buy, you're probably technical enough to slap your own box together with the parts you want from the least expensive sources.

I think this is just to provide a point of reference for Joe Schmoe, which is not necessarily a bad thing. The problem I see with it is that a computer that is "Level 7" right now will drop significantly in a year. How do you keep people comprised of where their PC is at any given moment? My current box was uber in late 2002 / early 2003. It barely runs Doom 3 at good resolution, now.

Nokia follows the same model

[thodu]

Where they designate a phone belonging to either one of Series40. Series60, Series80, etc. Within a "series", one can be assured of similar display, keypad, etc. Seems to work for them and the developers. Developers can now target a SeriesXX platform knowing that the code will make sense on all phones of that platform.

Thank you. You saved me a reply to parent post.

[Ayanami Rei]

Seriously, the operating system and car analogy is stretched way too thin to make any kind of non-trivial argument.

On the other hand, doing a comparison is quite illustrative about the current state of both industries.

Do I want to crank my engine to start it?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd definately go with "yes" on this one, since the whole "key in the ignition" thing stopped working...

Re:Need a way to justify inability to ramp up spee

[DrMrLordX]

Not everyone's having problems scaling the clock speed of their cpus upward. There are rumours that AMD is getting their new 90 nm Athlon 64 parts up to 3 ghz on air. Not that AMD likes to label their processors based on clock speed, but nevertheless, they aren't having many problems with cramming more transistors into cpus at the moment.

Once we roll out those good old diamond transistors(any day now! No, really! um, yeah), look out.

All that aside, I suspect MS is toying with this idea in an attempt to make comparisons with its own Xbox and Xbox2 consoles with PCs easier, at least from a marketting point of view. And, if these lovely levels were set by a consortium of businesses that would be, more or less, under MS' thumb, MS could essentially dictate what hardware amounted to what level. They could use the level tags to promote particular products as being powerful(i.e. their own Xbox2 product) while tarring other products as being weak.

They could even slap unjustifiably low level tags on machines coming from OEMs that dared to ship machines with operating systems or software that compete directly with MS products. Not that they'd ever do anything like that. Teehee.

Shouldn't BSD be a 6

[Anonymous Coward]

feet under?

Re:Need a way to justify inability to ramp up spee

[Warlock7]

Exactly my point. Especially when you consider that the XBox 2 is running on IBM/Apple G5 processors. I'm very interested to see what they'll claim against the PowerMac G5s.

Here's a better suggestion:

[Anonymous Coward]

How's this:

You can use basic specifications, like, ahem...

Processor Make, Processor Speed
GPU DirectX native mode, Memory
System Memory
Hard Drive Capacity, Hard Drive Speed.

Is seven key metrics too much? For consumer PC's these specs move together, so a 3ghz PC, right now, would feature a premium chip, a 128mb video card, with DirectX-9 compatibility, an 160gb Hard drive at 7200rpm.

Believe it or not, people understand these numbers. Why? Because they aren't some hokey relativistic mumbo-jumbo, they are ordinal metrics. Zero is zero, ten is ten, and 3ghz is 3ghz, and the person upgrading their 500mhz computer with a 16mb video card, with a 20gb hard drive at 5400 rpm can safely assume the video card will perform about 8 times as fast, the processor 6 times as fast, with 15% faster hard drive access on a drive that's 8 times larger.

Is that TOO hard? People understand watts when buying amplifiers, People understand minutes when buying blank media. People understand volume when diggin a swimming pool.

Oh, this is a "level one" swimming pool - meaning its only 4 foot deep and six foot by six foot. But, if it were a hot tub it would a level 5, or if it were a jacuzzi it would level 7. If you make it 30 foot deep, it suddenly becomes a level 10++, which is suitable for competition (diving) but not laps.

Which would be very painful if you dived into a level 10+ swimming pool, which is suitable for laps, not diving.

Fuck you Bill. You must think as all fools.

product dx again??

[grikdog]

"Product differential" is what you sell when there's no perceptible difference between your product and the other guy's (or in the case of Microsoft, when your product is inferior to the other guy's -- i.e., not free). So, back when cigarette ads were allowed on television, the only difference between Marlboro and Winston was the cowboy and the cachet. When you start to see dx/dP marketspeak instead of R&D, you can count the beads of sweat on management's forehead.

If Windows had copied the Mac properly...

[GrahamCox]

...this sort of thing wouldn't be an issue. Who established the shortcuts of +X, C, V for Cut, Copy, Paste? Apple! Likewise nearly every common shortcut. The fact that on 'doze they decided to use a DIFFERENT modifier should not be a problem now laid at Apple's feet - M$ shoulda copied it more thoroughly!
The problem is just as bad going he other way, from Mac to Win - I keep trying to paste and getting a bloody menu popping down.
Another thing that really bugs me on Windows is typing accented characters - on the Mac most of these work in a moderately intuitive way once you've seen it once - you can nearly always guess the right key combo based on what you want to appear (i.e. option e + e gives you é, option u + u gives you ü). On 'doze you have to either learn very arcane character codes or else use the severely broken character palette - which, when you cut/paste from it also forces a new FONT and COLOUR on the text you paste - like I just wanted a character, I already formatted that text you stupid !@#$%!!!

Quit it with the goddamn car analogies

[Dirtside]

Cars are not analogous to computers. Sure, you can certainly draw some parallels, but how about this:

Cars have not been able to do much of anything new for 90 years. You drive them. That's it.

Computers can do new things every other week. (Well, they've always been "able" to do it, but if nobody has written software to do that thing, then it effectively can't be done.) The interfaces for these things must be written anew, whereas the interface for using a car has been fundamentally the same since inception. (For computers, I don't mean the keyboard or mouse; I mean the way you interact with the program.) There are programs that do radically different things; the interface for Doom 3 is fundamentally different than the interface for Excel. The interface for a Porsche is not really different than the interface for a Pinto.

Cars have not increased in power by any significant degree for decades. Sure, at the high end there have been gains, but 99.9% of all people drive below the same maximum speed now that they did in 1960, and not just because of speed limit laws.

Every year, the average PC you can buy is significantly more powerful than the one before. A basic, $500 desktop machine bought in September 2004 is thousands of times more powerful, in every respect, than every single computer in the entire world, combined, from 1960.

There are quite a lot of laws governing how cars must be built and used, because of the potential for death and destruction when using them.

There are basically no laws (aside from environmental cleanup laws) about how to build a computer, and very few laws about how you can use a computer. Computers have a very low potential for causing death and destruction.

Ever seen that joke about how, if cars advanced as fast as computers, they'd cost 30 cents, get eighty trillion miles to the gallon, be able to travel at fifty times the speed of light, and would weigh no more than a penny? Yeah. That's a demonstration of exactly how non-analogous cars and computers are. So quit freakin' analogizing them!

Mines a

[Karem Lore]

Uber Level 2001...

Ford Jaguars and Alienware ALXs

[Anonymous Coward]

I was just thinking about how the automobile industry must handle this. It seems they haven't come up with any mystical scale. They're using the same system the PC industry has for quite some time, which is to slap a name on there and list the specs.

Car:

Ford Jaguar 2005 XK : 4.2-liter V8 : 6-speed transmission : Eaton Roots supercharger w/ twin air-liquid intercoolers : 390 hp : 6000 rpm : 399 lb-ft of maximum torque at 3500rpm : restyled mesh grille : large trunk spoiler : new quad exhaust tailpipe finishers

PC:

Intel Pentium 4 Processor with HT Technology Extreme Edition 3.4GHz Operating @ 3.8 GHz : Microsoft® Windows : 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 : PC-4300 SDRAM at 533MHz : 148GB Western Digital® 10,000 RPM RAID 0 : NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Ultra 256MB DDR3 : Creative Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS High Definition

RPGs

[Anonymous Coward]

Everquest, Ultima et al have finally gone too far.

"I have a level 12 xeon with +4 RAM and GM archery"

it kind of happens anyway

[RMH101]

through price. take a look in the highstreet, the online retailers, etc etc. sheer market forces mean that for a given price point, you (broadly speaking) get PCs of a similar "level". why complicate matters unless you want to treat PCs as palladium/trusted computing media consoles?

Not such a bad idea

[Caceman]

It seems to me that a lot of people are jumping on this with the idea that there will be a fixed number of levels, and that each year the levels will be adjusted to reflect the latest hardware releases. Why not start with the best of today's hardware and give that a level 10. Go through the lower-end items and rate them between 0 and 10. The rating of the PC will then be the rating of the lowest piece of hardware in that PC, i.e., the 4 GHz processor with 128 MB of RAM is rated at the level of the RAM. Future hardware can then be rated in increments as it is released. There shouldn't be more than 3 new levels released per year. In fact, I believe that two levels per year would be more common. If a new piece of hardware that is unknown\not common today becomes common, then that hardware can be assigned a level and integrated into the system.

Levels?

[pragma_x]

Its rediculous to try and compose a metric for system specs simply becuase "better" is entirely too qualatative a term when applied to PC's. There are so many different parts that bottleneck each other in certain circumstances, its impossible to guage what's the all-round-best fit.

That having been said, the big guys can put level markings all over their products if they want, but I'm not buying into this unless these machines can earn EXP and upgrade on their own.

But the package is usually what counts...

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Let's see... I can take a 100Hp subaru from 1994 and rip out the drivetrain, put in parts from a STi, crank it up to 600 Hp and drive on down the road.

Sure, but unless you really know what you're doing, the overall experience will still suck compared to a real STi, because you won't have the suspension, brakes, etc. to match the performance. It'll probably cost you a lot more than just buying an STi from a Subaru dealer, too. At the risk of over-soundbiting, the overall package is more than the sum of its parts, and the weakest link in the chain is what matters.

The same is true of PCs. How many people do you know who go out and try to make up their own system, choosing all the parts, put it together themselves, only to find the performance sucks compared to what they could have had out of the box, for 75% of the price, from any decent supplier, all because they didn't appreciate the need for {more RAM | faster CPU | higher-rated PSU | the right connectivity options | better monitor | etc}?

I think a simple scheme for Joe Average-Gamer is a great idea. Most people don't care, or want to care, about whether a 3200+ Athlon 64 is faster than a Pentium IV (or whatever they're up to now) 9.73THz. They want a PC that writes a letter, or browses the web, or can play Half-life 2 when it comes out. For these people, knowing that their system was up to "level 6" games would make life easier.

The tweakers will tweak, or build their own systems, as they always have, and I imagine game vendors will still publish recommended minimum spec and the reviewers will still tell you what you really need instead. Nothing about having a level system precludes all of that, and given the number of top-end gamers who like to tweak, do you really think the game manufacturers would stop them doing it?

For the record, I've been building my own systems since forever, I tend to buy top-end games a few months after they come out, and I drive a WRX. :-)

Re:But the package is usually what counts...

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Sure, but unless you really know what you're doing, the overall experience will still suck compared to a real STi, because you won't have the suspension, brakes, etc. to match the performance. It'll probably cost you a lot more than just buying an STi from a Subaru dealer, too. At the risk of over-soundbiting, the overall package is more than the sum of its parts, and the weakest link in the chain is what matters.

Actually, I will - most of those parts carry over rather well. The problem is usually that I'd spend more money. That and getting everything just right. I might be beter served muying the faster car and upgrading that.

XNA

[randalx]

I think this move has more to do with the XNA vision. MS wants to get out of the business of making XBox hardware and let others make the boxes. They can then just sell the os/sdk software for the boxes. This level system is a way for the different HW vendors to then compare their boxes against one another but more importantly verify that XNA Level X games work. PC's as we know it are secondary to the vision. This is all about closed boxes and MS controlling a new platform.

Oh, great

[Syberghost]

Now there will be n00bs hanging out in Best Buy asking passers-by to power level their PCs.

Consoles

[Pope]

More importantly, console generations are SUPPOSED to last 4-5 years. This ensures a few things, namely the game writers have a while to get used to the hardware and really max it out (the last generation of PlayStation 1 games shows this more than any other), and for progress to happen to make the following generation just that much better than the last.

Attempts to speed this up to 3 years if foolhardy and demonstrates a serious ignorance of the 25+ year history of the home videogame console. Microsoft, I'm looking in your direction!

Nonsense, Inc.

[Zx-man]

Ok, so why wouldn't anyone than just suggest rating your PC's performance by the MIPS count, as it is far more reasonable, compared to the abstract & constantly changing level system...
Or, for the ones, whose need in usage of the computer is limited to gaming, by the 3DMark score?

True, but

[PotatoHead]

you are missing part of the point.

If the masses accept this new level proposal then they won't be learning about actual computing bits. They will learn the marketing bits they are wrapped in. This layer of indirection allows for easy manupulation of whoever buys into it.

(warning computers and cars analogy ahead!)

What if cars had levels?

Lets say you determined you need a level 2 car. You go to the lot and buy a level 2. Is that car really a level one car that has been tweaked to perform at level 2, but really should be a level 1. What if the level 2 performance was at the cost of car life because you would be running the crap out of it?

How would you know?

I suppose you could use testimonials & such, but wouldn't it be better to just know a bit about cars to decide for yourself?

Your second comment makes pretty good sense. I think they will just put dates on them. This makes for nice and clear incentives as to how to upgrade and when.

With cars, people that don't know either drive them to try to learn, or they find somebody who does know to help them decide. Computers should be the same way.

Yami Yami computer commie

[Icegryphon]

Do you need to Tribute sacrifice 2 computers for a level 7 and higher computer?

Ctrl-C won't erase selected text on a Mac

[David Rolfe]

Also, if ctrl-c really did delete your text (which it doesn't), and you didn't know what the command/apple key was for, you could click on Edit ->Undo which is always at the top in the SAME PLACE.

Now, when you clicked on Edit for the first time -- up there at the top -- it would tell you the correct shortcut keys; you would be stunned to find they are command-zxcv, which is interestingly enough the scheme that Windows adopted after the days of shift-delete, ctrl-instert, and shift-insert, which you will now tell me are superior to the now common zxcv. I'd also submit that these short cuts are also less annoying than the bad old days of moving text around in X-windows.

(also to nitpick, don't has an apostrophe, if you used a Mac universal spellcheck would have caught that for you. Another benefit is that command-c doesn't conflict with ctrl-c when you're using a terminal, this makes using the clipboard in cli apps even more convenient than in X11. This would make me think that 'switching from Windows to FOSS' also makes people mad when they are using Windows shortcuts. :)

Class instead of level

[bar-agent]

It would make more sense to use a class system rather than a level system.

Class A: Gaming powerhouse.

Class B: Vid-editing mastery.

Class C: Office work.

Class D: Browser, e-mail, word processing.

CPU speed

[Anonymous Coward]

okay, how about this one.
Doom 3 needs a 1.5 intel ghz CPU. or a 1500+ AMD. but what is that as an optron (sp?0, centrino, or xeon?

why not use levels for processors, so that a 1 ghz centrino is the same as a 1.5 P4 or a 1500+Athlon XP? see. they're all gonna be called a level 1.5 processor, even though they might have clock speeds of 1 ghx all the way to 2 ghz.

then, do the same with a video card. an internal vid card with 256 megs of ram could be the same level as an AGP with 64 megs of ram or a PCI with 128 megs. that way, what you'll end up with is a computer spec sheet that looks like this

level 2 CPU
level 3 video card
level 1.5 ram
etc, etc.

works for me..much better then id software telling me that i cant run doom 3 on my centrino laptop b/c it's only 1.4 ghz, but runs it fine...

Sounds Like Scientology

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm a Level 6 Dumbass Hollywood Actor who just gave all my money to the Church of Scientology. I'm definitely going to be on the ship to the promised land!"

Re:Sounds Like Scientology

[jsav40]

natural clear, eh ? ;)