Best Degree to Pair w/ a B.Sc. in Computer Science?

VeryCleverHandle asks: "I have held a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science for about two years now, and I want to further my education, and increase my marketability. I am wondering what kind of degree makes a good pair for my existing one. At first, I thought of a Master's, but in my searches for a job, I've rarely (read: never) seen a Masters degree required. I am also researching what kind of degrees others, who have obtained their Bachelor's, received to help complement their education. So I ask you, Slashdot: Which degree(s) do YOU think will go well with a Computer Science Bachelors?"

Comments

Three Letters:

[Maradine]

MBA. You've learned how. Now learn why. The resultant doubling of your earnings potential is just a sad side-effect you're going to have to learn to cope with.

Re:Three Letters:

[Anonymous Coward]

Pick your school carefully. Some MBAs aren't worth the paper they're printed on and others are excellent.

Re:Three Letters:

[Anonymous Coward]

No doubt. I can see the tears now.

Re:Three Letters:

[stupidfoo]

You've learned how. Now learn why managers are such a bunch of idiotic fools!

Re:Three Letters:

[Anonymous Coward]

MCSE! MCSE!!!

Re:Three Letters:

[javester]

And an MBA is also useful if you want to become an enterpreneur.

It's also a good way to establish a network.

IMHO, being a lifelong employee is not the way to go. Learn the ropes and establish your networks in Corporate America, and then be your own boss.

I've seen too many capable people "synergized" out of a job by all the Mergers & Acquisitions happening out there.

Re:Three Letters:

[Dr. Evil]

An MBA with no management work experience is worthless... monitarily speaking.

Many universities won't even accept you into their program you unless you're in a management role.

Re:Three Letters:

[PostConsumerRecycled]

I have to agree, a MBA along with a technical bachelor's is pretty potent.

Possibly a Software Engineering degree, but something that covers topics outside of just the technical areas.

Employers like well rounded employees.

Re:Three Letters:

[Anonymous Coward]

Really any advanced professional degree goes well with it. MBA is an obvious choices, but what about an MD, or a law degree? Most fields need people who have an advanced understanding of the field and the computer technology to go with it.

Re:Three Letters:

[EnronHaliburton2004]

The resultant doubling of your earnings potential is just a sad side-effect you're going to have to learn to cope with.

You'll also have to cope with the huge influx with people graduating with MBAs over the next few years. I have to wonder if the market is going to be flooded with too many MBAs soon.

Don't get me wrong. Education is a good thing, but it really seems like everyone and his sister are enrolling in an MBA program.

Re:Three Letters:

[Maradine]

100% true. I would counter, however, that MBA's with a solid computer science degree are not. I can only speak from what I have seen, and those in this field that also understand the fundamental business reasons behind IT have done extremely well for themselves. YMMV. *shrug*

M

Re:Three Letters:

[ghukov]

Oh my sides are aching. Surely you jest. LMAO!

Re:Three Letters:

[ndtechnologies]

Well, Dexter Holland (singer of Offspring) was majoring in Bionuclear Engineering at USC, and then decided to start a punk band...seems to me that the options are limitless as far as what degree goes well with another...

Re:Three Letters:

[Anonymous Coward]

CPA! I had the same issue about a year ago. I went back to school but wanted to make sure I came out of class with something that will always hold its value. I deceided to load up on accounting courses and sit for the CPA exam. The opportunities for a CPA are limitless. A CPA with CS in an audit position are tremendous. Its worth looking into.

Re:Three Letters:

[burner]

An MBA is not about learning anything, it's about meeting the right people, so pick a good school.

Re:Three Letters:

[nurd68]

This depends - getting an MBA works if what you want is to be management. On the other hand, if you want to be a real engineer for the rest of your life, it may not be the right way to go. You might overqualify yourself out of a job.

I'm kind of in the same boat, but my thought is to work for 10 years or so, then go back and get a fast track masters/Ph.D and then teach.

But, we'll see.

Re:Three Letters:

[bfizzle]

And that is why you go for the Masters in CS or Project/Systems/Process Engineering. You can still get the management position, but it is much more rare.

Re:Three Letters:

[Esion Modnar]

MBA. You've learned how. Now learn why.

As a manager once said to me, those who know how, will always have a job working for those who know why.

Well, maybe not always. I suppose those who work always are those who know who.

Re:Three Letters:

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't get me wrong. Education is a good thing, but it really seems like everyone and his sister are enrolling in an MBA program.

Which is where the Comp. Sci. degree sets you appart from the rest of the MBA's. Just an MBA is ounting for less and less, but an MBA on top of a solid technical degree still has value

Re:Three Letters:

[Kick the Donkey]

Most people that hold MBA's aren't worth the paper their MBA's are printed on...

Re:Three Letters:

[MyRuger]

If you get an MBA then you won't be allowed to research anymore because you will be too busy doing business deals. I have a Math degree and that is reallt flexable. I'm currently doing research at an AI oriented company and loving it.

Re:Three Letters:

[phats garage]

7/11! Nowadays the savvy CS grad latches on to the day shift behind a register at his local 7/11, as the evening shift is too busy, and the midnight shift you get shot at.

Re:Three Letters:

[teidou]

Most fields need people who have an advanced understanding of the field and the computer technology to go with it.

I agree. In my experience, though, the role of IT-savvy physicians is to participate at high levels; you don't get to code much.

And it can be kind of frustrating to have an MD and an understanding of the field. For example, it's a pain to do research using most hospital infomation systems. The current paradigm is to manually look up patients and cut and paste results into Excel by hand. In my experience, asking for a SQL or ODBC connection to the database marks you as a bad guy.

That said, those hospitals that do get it really do seem to get it and you get to have a lot of fun.

Tait

Re:Three Letters:

[BoRictor]

Except now you are an accountant. Gah i'd rather jab pointy objects into my eyes than have to be an accountant. Or even worse - program accounting software.

Re:Three Letters:

[Psychofreak]

Medical Doctor? That's 8 REALLY EXPENSIVE years of your life. Better make sure it is your calling. Don't just look at the MD degree though, Investigate the DO degree as well.

Now Law you say? Well that is an expensive 2 to 4 years of your life that will teach you quite a lot about the world. Again, Not for everyone.

The MBA is good, but a general MBA isn't much. Try seeing what sub-specialties are available. There may be something that is more focused that YOU may be able to use. Knowing WHY your manager is a prick is useful too.

Grain of salt: This is from a person in retail sales with a Mechanical Engineering degree.

Have fun
Phil

Re:Three Letters:

[Anonymous Coward]

you say what, exactly?

Hello, I'd like a number one, with a coke please :D

Re:Three Letters:

[acherrington]

Be very careful about when you get your MBA.. Don't get trapped where I am. Currently I have a BS in Networking Technology (kinda a rare degree), and an MBA.

I worked for two years while doing my masters at night. Where do I stand now? Overqualified a computer posistion and under qualified as a manager of any sort. No companies have been interested. Wait a couple years on the MBA if you are fresh outa college.

Re:Three Letters:

[carlos_benj]

Employers like well rounded employees.

Eat lot's of Krispy Kreme donuts then....

Re:Three Letters:

[grumpygrodyguy]

Yep, same thing with Boston and Rage Against the Machine. Ivy league schools will do that to you.

Re:Three Letters:

[macdaddy357]

The three letters you need are j-o-b. No piece of paper will replace experience.

Re:Three Letters:

[Masarand]

Absolutely agree, but spend 2-3 years working in a large company first.

The MBA will let you take the express route from being a hand-on techie into management (if that's what you want.)

Oh, and you don't need to go back to a technology company after the MBA.

Re:Three Letters:

[carlos_benj]

Dang. I know I took that apostrophe out.....

Re:Three Letters:

[OwnedByTwoCats]

Tom Sholtz, of Boston, went to MIT, not an Ivy League school. Engineering, not Liberal Arts.

Re:Three Letters:

[ocbwilg]

The differentiating factor is going to be whether or not you know anything else. Having an MBA is great, but if you haven't worked for large companies or in management before then your degree is largely theoretical. I liken today's overabundance of MBA programs to the overabundance of MCSE boot camps from 4 or 5 years ago. They'll churn out candidates by the thousands, but unless the candidates have the practical experience to back up their diplomas, they're going to begin to find that those MBAs aren't worth much at all.

This is not to say that having an MBA with no experience means that you're useless. It just means that you're going to have a harder time competing.

Re:Three Letters:

[Pete (big-pete)]

MBA. You've learned how. Now learn why.

This story has come at a good time for me, as I was pondering the exact same issue, I am considering studying an MBA with the Open University, and the course starts in May so I need to move fast...

They have two MBAs that I'd consider as options though - and I'm somewhat undecided about which to go for:

• MBA (Technology Management)
• Master of Business Administration

I am a process engineer and process manager, involved in process control and improvement, particularly ITIL, ISO9000, and Business Continuity related disciplines. I also own my own consultancy company, and would like to take some big steps forward over the next 10 years or so. I'm not sure really which of the two would benefit me most, they're both quite expensive, so I want to make sure I get the most value from the course. I'm still 29 now, which I think is probably a good age to be thinking about an MBA - old enough to have some experience of business, but still young enough that I haven't completely forgotten how to study yet...

Anyone out there have experience of these courses, or any ideas on what the benefits of each are?

Cheers,

-- Pete.

Re:Three Letters:

[drix]

And I'd rather use a well-designed accounting package than have to deal with pointers to objects. :)

Re:Three Letters:

[Vengie]

Thank you. I have a masters in CS from one of those Ivies, and am trying to get into a JD-MBA program. (I have the JD part down....B schools are a bit less forthcoming with admissions) -- I think there is a vacuum of people with actual tech skills that aren't afraid of that PHB label. The best way to fight the system is from within....

Re:Three Letters:

[ocbwilg]

The opportunities for a CPA are limitless. A CPA with CS in an audit position are tremendous. Its worth looking into. Assuming that the idea of auditing large complex companies sounds like a fun time for you. If not, you might want to steer clear.

Re:Three Letters:

[kar_oregon]

I'm completing an MBA after receiving my B.S. in computer science a couple of years ago. I've been offered multiple job opportunities for the summer. You may even decide to get out of IT and move into Finance-- a world where a quantitative skills can turn into actual money. I would second the suggestion to get work experience before coming to grad school- professors and colleagues alike really value it and you yourself will get more out of the experience.

Re:Three Letters:

[isis24]

ummm, you're totally wrong. 3-5 years experience in the workplace is the benchmark for all the top schools. It does not have to me managerial.

Re:Three Letters:

[studerby]

Agreed, but it's the incompetents with OCP (Oracle Certified Professional) that create the most spectacular disasters...

Not to pick on them particularly, there seems to be a smaller percentage of DIMs (Drooling Incompentent Morons) with OCP or CCNA than with MCSE.

Re:Three Letters:

[ShieldW0lf]

Most people that hold MBA's aren't worth the paper their MBA's are printed on...

As opposed to those with a CS degree?

You've wasted enough of your life in school. Go DO stuff. How many years did you spend not making shit income in school and how much money did you spend to be there? Imagine what you could have done with that time if you'd gotten a computer, some books, and gone about making shit happen?

Education is what employers settle for when they can't get their hands on someone with experience. Stop wasting your life and go get started.

Re:Three Letters:

[renehollan]

Except now you are an accountant. Gah i'd rather jab pointy objects into my eyes than have to be an accountant. Or even worse - program accounting software.

You sir, have never experienced the joy of using not one, but two international tax treaties, to make income from a foreign assignment by a non-U.S. citizen that would otherwise not be taxable in the U.S. intentionally so taxable (and, *poof*, completely offset by foreign tax credits, ta da!), so the eligible moving expenses associated with the assignment, but paid in the following year, when a U.S. tax resident, are deductable against U.S. income in that following year.

Accounting has the potential for some interesting hacks. When was the last time you got to (figuratively), go "Nyeah, nyeah, nyeah, nyeah, nyeah!" to the IRS, and the CRA (Canada Revenue Agency)?

Re:Three Letters:

[omb]

First, you have to decide what you want to do/be.

As one who has been an academic and businessman, I think the MBA is overrated, it is essentially a cram course, better tought in a vocational school than a University, though it provides comfortable tenure for many. Also the very best schools have staff that manage to transcend the rather drab syllabus which could be described as the 'Idiots guide to Business'.

You really need to asses and research what you need to know and do not know; so as a CS major I would expect you to be numerate, but you might not know statistics and you do certainly need a basic understanding of statistics, law accounting and pschycology (aka marketing) to work in business.

To do that, you need to figure out what you want to do, then you can define what you need to know.

A last point, you first degree lasts 3-5 tears, a PG degree 4-7; after that it is professional reputation.

Re:Three Letters:

[bblazer]

I completely agree. With an MBA and a CS degree you will be able to get jobs with groups like SAP and Accenture. I have a friend with that combo and he is in his 4th year at Accenture. He has now done 3 RETEK installs, and is managing a 4th. His complete annual package is in excess of 125k.

Re:Three Letters:

[MagicDude]

As a medical student, I have to point out that one can't really just "decide" to get an MD degree. There are a lot of hoops to jump through just to get into medical school. Consider that throughout the US, there are 16000 seats in all the medical schools per year, and there are 48000 applicants vying for them. Then, the requirements for admitance to any medical school are as follows - 1 year of biology with lab, one year of chemistry with lab, one year of physics with lab, one year of organic chemistry with lab, one year of english/literature. Those are the requirements for EVERY medical school in the US. Then there are certain schools which require you to have taken biochemistry or calculus as well. More than likely, a person who majored in comp sci hasn't taken biology or organic chemistry, or for that matter, chemistry and physics either. So that's a minimum of 1 year of post bac work before even applying to medical school. Then there's the matter of the MCAT, an eight hour standardized exam from hell testing physics, chemistry, biology, O-Chem, reading comprehension, and writing 2 essays. Oh yeah, it's only offered twice a year (April and August), and it costs about $200 to take. Then there's applying to schools. The harsh reality of applying to med school is that there's no "safety school" that one can apply to that they are garunteed admission like you could do for undergrad. Thus, most people will apply to about 10-15 schools in order to get 1 or 2 acceptances (unless of course, you are L33t with a capital three). Application costs for that many schools will easily run about $1200. Then there's the costs of going out on interviews (med schools do not reimburse you for travel expenses unlike every other civilized interview on the planet). And then once (or if) you get an acceptance, it's four grueling and expensive years (med school has painfully little in common with the wild and hedonistic lifystyle of an undergrad). Then it's 4-8 years of poorly paid residency, though a few do turn to the "dark side" where they pass on the residency and instead work for insurance companies or some other kind of corporation, where they make big bucks, but aren't licensed to practice medicine, but instead use their degree to lend credence towards whatever project they are assigned to. So if medicine is a path you choose, more power to ya, but it's not a decision you can just make one day and be like "Hmmm, I think I'll become a doctor today". All that being said, there is a nationwide shortage of nurses, and male nurses are always in demand. Nursing is a 4 year degree, but with your degree, I'm sure some credits would transfer and you could finish in less time. And with medicine becoming more and more computerized, someone with a strong background in comp sci and medicine/nursing could probably find some pretty good work in hospital IT. But again, medicine is a calling, not a backup plan.

Re:Three Letters:

[twiddlingbits]

"basic understanding of statistics, law accounting and pschycology (aka marketing) to work in business" That's called a BBA. I have one of those AND a BSCS. They covered the BBA stuff the first week in my MBA classes they they moved on. We had teachers who used real world examples and made you think. I agree with others that an MBA w/o experience isnt a lot of value.

Re:Three Letters:

[WaterBreath]

No piece of paper will replace experience.

No, but it also takes a lot of relevant experience to replace the testament that an education makes to your ability to:

• Persevere
  
• Perform unpleasant, but necessary, tasks
  
• Learn
  
• Deal with authority figures
  
• Handle time and resource constraints
  
• Function as part of a team (depending on the school)

Re:Three Letters:

[brianosaurus]

The submitter does have 2 years experience on top of a CS degree (assuming he has been working as opposed to, say, backpacking around Europe with his liberal arts buddies ;). As the MBA program progresses, he will be able to apply that knowledge to his past work experiences and examine them from a business perspective (ie. "Oh!!! So THAT's the real reason my project was dumped!"). It isn't experience WITH an MBA, but it is definitely useful experience.

That gives a competitive edge over someone fresh out of Business School with no "secondary" skill or experience.

Re:Three Letters:

[Paleolithic]

You've heard of the glut paper MSCE? People who have an MSCE and no practical experience are close to useless. Same with MBA graduates.

An MBA is useful for someone with at least a few years of practical experience.

An MBA teaches people to manage in very large corporations. If you are not going to go to Harvard, Penn, Northwestern, MIT, or one of a handful of top schools then there is absolutely no point in getting an MBA.

Get work experience instead. If you want to branch out in your knowledge (a great idea), read books on sales, marketing, finance, writing, handling people, etc. Read about one book per month.

Don't waste your time on an MBA unless you are going to Harvard.

Re:Three Letters:

[gstoddart]

I worked for two years while doing my masters at night. Where do I stand now? Overqualified a computer posistion and under qualified as a manager of any sort. No companies have been interested. Wait a couple years on the MBA if you are fresh outa college.

This has been a problem with MBAs for a very long time. The original role of that degree was to get people who were actually working in business learn enough to make their companies grow even bigger -- you know, people like engineers at Nortel and the like way back in the day. (And obviously from many fields as well.)

Then it became the next logical degree to get after your undergrad. Become the wunderkind manager, get a Bimmer, and all the trappings that went with it. Eighties avarice at its best. :-P

I've seen numerous articles how real businesses are dropping interest in MBAs because it's become chic, but without enough actual experience to back it up. Large companies can't afford to hand over the reigns to fresh-faced MBAs who, in theory, know everything there is to know about how to run a company -- except actually running one.

Sadly, you might have gotten caught up in the hype. They got pushed much the way CS was suddenly in style pre .dot bomb.

Re:Three Letters:

[Aqua OS X]

Agreed.

An MBA can be a good thing, -IF- you get it from an institution with some clout. There are a LOT of lame easy MBA programs, and there are a lot of lame people who like to tout their easily acquired MBAs. Those of us who have been through real graduate programs can spot these people... and we could care less about them.

Moreover, I'd recommend getting a masters degree in something aside from business. It's fairly easy to find someone with a CS BS and an MBA.

I know this might sound weird, but look into things like cognitive psychology, industrial design, interactive design, biology, game design, etc. These are all industries that are starving for people who understand CS.

Re:Three Letters:

[repetty]

I'm glad you're studying medicine because my head just fucking blew up reading your gargantuan paragraph.

Is there more than one thought in all of that? I just couldn't get through it.

Re:Three Letters:

[tverbeek]

MBA. You've learned how. Now learn why.

No, the only underlying metaphysical principle of most MBA programs is "why not?" The people who enroll in them already know what ends they're $eeking; they go there to learn the best means.

On the other hand, if you really want to understand "why?", find a good liberal arts school and major in philosophy, or maybe psych or sociology. Heck, even an Intro to World Religions will teach you more about "why" than an MBA.

Re:Three Letters:

[jadavis]

Your sarcastic comment doesn't really make sense. Of course managers don't do stuff. They want YOU to do it. If you go in and prove you can do stuff, that's less stuff for them to do and more money for them to make. If you go in and tell them how great you are at bean counting and holding meetings, that's more of their time wasted and less money for them. Not to mention you'll be competition for their job.

Re:Three Letters:

[Doomdark]

Education is what employers settle for when they can't get their hands on someone with experience.

Actually, while experience is very valuable, I'd rather not hire a programmer that has no college education. Although it is possible to learn everything CS degrees teach without attending actual school, very few people do that. It's just more efficient to learn that as part of a degree -- although you have to learn quite a bit more than what you will eventually need, you never know which parts are things you do NOT need. Without knowing at least something about compiler theory, relational model, discrete maths, data structure basics, algorithms etc., you aren't much of a software developer; no matter how much experience you have doing more trivial programming.

At least in CS it's simple: like they say, simple problems were all solved in 60s (if not 50s). If you do not learn what the great minds learnt/invented/solved (but rather go and solve them by trial and error... or worse, never learn them!), you are just colossaly wasting your time. Either you are ignorant of useful techniques, or you have used awfully lots of time reinventing the wheel.

However, after learning enough (B.Sc, or maybe M.Sc... depends on kinds of things you are working on), I certainly agree one has to go out and use the knowledge. Going for higher degrees without intervening real-world experience is as silly as ignoring 'formal' CS theory altogether.

Re:Three Letters:

[ziandra]

Much of corporate america has converted to the dual ladder allowing technical people to develop without having to go into management. That said, it is much more difficult to advance up the technical ladder. The average to good technical person is well advised to pick up a MBA if their employeer will pay for it. It increases your marketabilty and your paycheck. Few higher degrees pay for the time invested. I figure my masters in computer science and ph.d electronic engineering were costing me 10-20k/yr when I was working. More so now that I am between jobs as those extra credentials make finding work that more difficult. Go for the higher degree in a field you are interested if you enjoy the process. Go for a MBA if you want to increase your erning potential in corporate america.

Re:Three Letters:

[DARKFORCE123]

and with an MBA degree he means real coke too.

Re:Three Letters:

[jleq]

Three more important letters: MIS. With a CS degree + MIS, you can do ANYTHING. And I mean ANYTHING.

Re:Three Letters:

[lskutt]

MBA. You've learned how. Now learn why.

Those three letters are probably a very good idea. However, I would like to suggest that you might want to take it even further.

There is a bad academic proverb that a generalist is somebody who knows nothing about lots of things. Well, I would instead say that a generalist is somebody who is really good at two things or more. There aren't that many of "my" generalists around, but those who are make loads of money and get really fun jobs.

I worked as a software developer for something like 4½-5 years without any education. Taking my own advice, I figured that I should get some kind of degree for something completely different. So I applied for a program for a masters degree in Industrial Engineering and Management (the universities in Sweden have a different approach to the education than you do in the U.S.; in short you study directly towards a masters in engineering).

But then I thought, "now I know the technology, the management and the engineering, but something is missing". So I also started going for a paralell bachelors in Political Science which will hopefully give me the two last pieces of the jigzaw puzzle: society and information.

This kind of education will also cover most of the power bases in our society: Economics, Technology, Politics. Or atleast I hope so.

Re:Three Letters:

[ShieldW0lf]

Actually, while experience is very valuable, I'd rather not hire a programmer that has no college education. Although it is possible to learn everything CS degrees teach without attending actual school, very few people do that. It's just more efficient to learn that as part of a degree -- although you have to learn quite a bit more than what you will eventually need, you never know which parts are things you do NOT need. Without knowing at least something about compiler theory, relational model, discrete maths, data structure basics, algorithms etc., you aren't much of a software developer; no matter how much experience you have doing more trivial programming.

At least in CS it's simple: like they say, simple problems were all solved in 60s (if not 50s). If you do not learn what the great minds learnt/invented/solved (but rather go and solve them by trial and error... or worse, never learn them!), you are just colossaly wasting your time. Either you are ignorant of useful techniques, or you have used awfully lots of time reinventing the wheel.

However, after learning enough (B.Sc, or maybe M.Sc... depends on kinds of things you are working on), I certainly agree one has to go out and use the knowledge. Going for higher degrees without intervening real-world experience is as silly as ignoring 'formal' CS theory altogether.

See, that all sounds good.

But the fact is, once you get into the market, your stupid piece of paper isn't worth shit. It puts you one up on the guy who has neither experience nor education, and that's not enough.

I've got a rinky-dink piece of paper from a school that no longer exists. Took me 8 months to get, wasn't worth shit, wasted a lot of money, haven't used anything that I learned in there since I got out. But not knowing any better, I got it. When I went and got my first job in IT, they didn't even give a shit about my school; nothing I had learned there was relevant. I showed them I was confident, ambitious and willing to learn, and off I went.

Fast forward 5 years. I'm not yet 30, a consultant, make more than my father, do lead development work for fortune 500 companies, and have regularly had to teach ignoramuses with CS degrees how to do their jobs. I have no degree, but I've got a very large bookshelf full of worn texts I've read back to front a dozen times and numerous large, successful projects under my belt. Know where the majority of the people I know with CS degrees work? They're telemarketers for HP.

So you can talk about how "silly" ignoring "formal" CS theory is. Doesn't phase me. Why? Because I've made my career proving you wrong, and I'm not even near my peak.

I'll take my page out of the books of Job and Woz, thanks.

Re:Three Letters:

[uselessidiot]

Here is an article related to the value of an MBA I tend to agree. Its real value is the potential for networking. Other than that its not worth a whole lot. If the people that were teaching these classes really knew business, they would be out running their own instead of schlepping to a classroom every day.

Re:Three Letters:

[Combuchan]

A CPA, for the record, isn't a degree but a title you get when you pass the exam. Going to school for accountancy will give you a degree in just that, but I imagine that it'd be quicker to study on your own time for the CPA exam rather than going to school for the degree. I guess it boils down to what you really want--the degree or the title
The opportunities for a CPA are limitless. A CPA with CS in an audit position are tremendous.

CPA's are in high demand--but a CPA with a CS degree? How would that be specially useful--or better yet, more useful than a slightly more logical combination, eg CS and physics/math?

Re:Three Letters:

[Phragmen-Lindelof]

I doubt that a degree in math will ever be "in vogue" or "the popular degree for slackers." On the other hand, you will need to learn something to obtain a math degree and not every major requires this.

Re:Three Letters:

[Arimatheus]

>"The opportunities for a CPA are limitless. A CPA with CS in an audit position are tremendous. Its worth looking into." Especially nowadays that companies are scrambling to become Sarb-Ox compliant. I know at my company the guy who recently moved into the "department auditor" position has been promoted twice within ~2 quarters, and we're probably going to hire another person soon to help him. Especially if you have the tech-savviness, you will be MUCH more valuable to a company if you can pick up on what process-failures an external auditor would fail you on come FY-E. The other fact to keep in mind that SarbOx is SCARING companies, I know around here there's never a "budget crisis" when monies are requested for anything related to regulatory compliance. I also agree that the market will be flooded with MBAs soon and they just don't have the weight that they once did. Yes, it is a generally held belief nowadays that MBA-holders are nothing more than pompous windbags who enjoy playing politics. Something I'm looking at doing right now is going back and getting an economics degree. I know it isn't necessarily a "good match" with a CS degree, and I don't know how old you are, but eventually in your career you should be able to amass a considerable amount of savings and if you can manage it properly then you won't need a boss! Other than that I'd look into a bartender's license. It is a recession-proof industry and nobody's ever going to outsource you. ;-)

Re:Three Letters:

[Antonymous Flower]

how about MBAs that hold CS degrees?

Re:Three Letters:

[Antonymous Flower]

I have to wonder if the market is going to be flooded with too many MBAs soon. Aren't MBAs the ones who create the markets? ESPECIALLY engineers..

Re:Three Letters:

[eno2001]

Mod this guy up!!! College is a waste overall, but even moreso at the grauate level. Knowledge is the way to open doors and experience is the key. Work hard on getting the experience.

Re:Three Letters:

[boodaman]

School is a waste? That's just wrong.

If you want to work in the same position all your life, then great. Stay out of school, and just get experience.

If, however, you don't want to stay in the same position all your life, go to school. It is a must.

If you have 20 yrs experience in a job (or 5, or 10), all that says about you is that you can do that job. Period. It says nothing about your potential, it says nothing about your willingness (and ability) to extend yourself, it says nothing about what you CAN do or MIGHT do given the chance, it only describes what you've DONE.

I'm speaking firsthand...I used to think like you...who needed college? I've been coding since I was 12 (over 25 yrs). I was writing business apps in COBOL before I could drive a car. And yep, I got some good jobs as a developer and sys-admin. But those were the ONLY jobs I got, and I only got those jobs in small companies (less than 100 people). Why? Because I didn't have a degree.

The year after I went back and completed my degree, I was hired into a Fortune 10 company at a 60% increase in salary, one annual review from management. This is after continually being rejected by that company and similar companies.

What changed? Did I learn a new language? Nope. Get certified in some new technology? Nope. Get another year, or 5, or 10 years of experience? Nope. The ONLY thing that changed was getting my degree.

Does not having a degree mean you can't do a particular job? Probably not. But I can tell you firsthand that without the degree, your options for growth, variety, and additional responsibility are severely limited. The game might suck, but in most cases, you still have to play it, and that means "punching your ticket" at the undergrad level, and eventually the grad level.

School isn't for everyone, and I totally agree that you should have a plan for getting a return on your investment. I know people getting their MBA who have no plan for how having their MBA degree will make a difference in their careers, or what kind of job they will need afterwards to make getting the degree worth it from an expense perspective. I think that's lame. However, I think getting the degree is an excellent idea, provided you have a plan for working it to your advantage.

To the original question: don't get a MBA...in another year, MBAs will be a dime a dozen, like MCSEs. If it were me, I'd specialize: MS in Library Science, or MS in Information Systems, or MS in Technology Management, or MS in Information Assurance, etc.

Re:Three Letters:

[Misanthropy]

"Consider that throughout the US, there are 16000 seats in all the medical schools per year, and there are 48000 applicants vying for them."

Yeah, makes it tough for "non-traditional" med school applicants. But don't discount Osteopath and International schools. I know several people who went that route who are now successful and respected doctors working in the US.

I was a CS graduate, worked as a systems admin for several years and then decided to go to medical school. That began two years worth of undergrad pre-med courses, taking MCAT, applying, etc; no it's not a quick and easy route. Also my undergrad grades way back then weren't exactly stellar. So, needless to say I wasn't one of the 16000. But, inspired by some fine doctors I know, I chose to go to an international school. Unlike the majority of students at US med schools who are fresh out of undergrad we have many nurses, PAs, EMTs, Business people, and even sys admins!

I don't really know what my point is, except that if you want it there is always a way.
That said...I REALLY need to go study!

Pharm: so many drugs, so little time

Re:Three Letters:

[b!arg]

And even better, see if that large company will actually PAY for your MBA. Of course, that's working under the assumption that you are willing to go back to the same company. They usually pro-rate these sorts of things based on how many years you stay onboard after you get the degree. Something like 20% for each year, whatever. But it would still be a discount even if you didn't see it to the end.

Re:Three Letters:

[babble123]

The better MBA programs will not even let you into their programs unless you've had a couple of years of management experience.

Re:Three Letters:

[EnronHaliburton2004]

But they are plastic looking.

Re:Three Letters:

[utlemming]

However, this presents an interesting attitude -- those with degrees think they are better and those with out degrees think that they are also as high. Usually those with out a degree are the ones that malaign education. Where I work, there is an interesting relationship. I work as Garden Center Manager, while pursuing my degree in Information Systems. All of my knowledge in plants is that which I have learned on my own and through on the job experience. My knowledge is practical in the area of horticulture. My problem is that I don't have a sufficent framework to understand how some of the products work. Sometimes the formally educated comes to me to ask questions, and sometimes I go to them to ask them questions. From my experience of having learned how to program on my own, and drawing on the experience of having worked with plants, I can see the value an education. I have become a much better programmer learning in a formal structure. The value that I can see is that formal education teaches people how to think the same way and why things are done in a certain way.

I guess the point here is that the formal and informal learning all have value. It seems like those who haven't had a formal education have an inferiority complex, and those who have had a formal education have a superiority complex. A degree in whatever, while merely a piece of paper represents that the person has done something, and learned how to learn. I know that the lessons that I have learned in college are far beyond the classes I have taken. And if I would not trade what I have learned for anything. Sure it would be nice to make a ton of money right now, and to enjoy the perks, the evolution of my character, personality, and knowledge is worth too much to me. When I graduate, it is going to be worth far more than a piece of paper: it will represent a period of my life where I have grown up a whole lot.

Re:Three Letters:

[EnronHaliburton2004]

You sir, have never experienced the joy of using not one, but two international tax treaties, blah blahhh blahhhhhh...

You're right. That's VERY exciting. If I could figure out what you were saying, I'd be very ... Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

Re:Three Letters:

[Misanthropy]

I'm in a sort of similar situation as a medical student. I've found that if you get to know the IT staff on their level they are usually pretty accomodating. On several occasions I've had people tell me about how the IT guy is a jerk (he may not be that good but he's not a jerk ;) or something like that. But after mentioning that I basically used to do his job it usually helps.
Once he realizes that you can communicate on his level and don't have to be handheld for every little thing then he'll be willing to give you some slack.
Otherwise he (however wrong it may be) will probably just assume that you're some doctor who read a few articles online or in the latest PC World, and decided that you need direct access to the database.
I always like to think about the guys who start hacking the windows registry without a clue and then call in the poor IT guy complaining that their computer is screwed up. Make them see that you are not this guy and that will go a long way.

Re:Three Letters:

[I_Love_Pocky!]

I've noticed that people without an education generally seem to view education in one of two ways: Either they wish they had more education, or they denounce education as a waste of money/time. All I can say is that the later opinion is rather short sighted, and I think it stems from a desire to prove that they are every bit as good as someone with an education. But what does it mean to be just as good? In the context of programmers, does that just mean that they are just as good at programming? Programming isn't a difficult task, and if that is all some one wants to do in life, then I admit that a CS degree is probably not going to be necessary.

Maybe you can do what someone with a CS degree is supposed to be able to do, but education isn't just about learning marketable skills. I'm just about done with a Masters in Computer Science, and I can certainly tell you that getting the degree was well worth my time. I really feel like I have a much broader understanding of Computer Science now, and that is worth something to me. Maybe it won't make me more marketable (I think it will), but money isn't everything. I love the subject, and I love learning about it.

I recommend a masters degree to anyone who just wants to know more.

Re:Three Letters:

[Bullet-Dodger]

It's fun to charter an accountant
And sail the wide accountancy,
To find, explore the funds offshore
And skirt the shoals of bankruptcy!

It can be manly in insurance.
We'll up your premium semi-annually.
It's all tax deductible.
We're fairly incorruptible,
We're sailing on the wide accountancy!

Re:Three Letters:

[spectecjr]

Maybe you can do what someone with a CS degree is supposed to be able to do, but education isn't just about learning marketable skills. I'm just about done with a Masters in Computer Science, and I can certainly tell you that getting the degree was well worth my time. I really feel like I have a much broader understanding of Computer Science now, and that is worth something to me. Maybe it won't make me more marketable (I think it will), but money isn't everything. I love the subject, and I love learning about it.

The point is, surely, that a piece of paper is no substitute for skill, talent and passion for the subject matter.

I've got a degree in Physics, and I can hold my own against anyone with a CS degree except when it comes to calculating Big O notation for algorithms. I can do it informally, and back-of-the-envelope it, but I can't formally calculate the speed of an algorithm. I do, however, know what makes a fast algorithm, what makes a slow one, and know to pick the appropriate one for the task at hand.

Re:Three Letters:

[I_Love_Pocky!]

College is a waste overall, but even moreso at the grauate level.

Have you been part of a graduate program? I find it to be rather rewarding. If you haven't experienced it, then I question why you feel that way? If on the other hand, you have been to graduate school, I'd be even more interested in why you feel that it was a waste.

Re:Three Letters:

[Psychofreak]

The last sentence was the only REALLY important one.

But again, medicine is a calling, not a backup plan.

The sentence before that was also really informative.

And with medicine becoming more and more computerized, someone with a strong background in comp sci and medicine/nursing could probably find some pretty good work in hospital IT.

The rest, well, your head blew off for a reason. That's a heavy laundry list of hoops.
Phil

Re:Three Letters:

[EnronHaliburton2004]

Aren't MBAs the ones who create the markets? ESPECIALLY engineers..

Some of the CEOs may have MBAs, but that doesn't mean that MBAs control the markets, or that an MBA will offer an advantage in the job market.

Re:Three Letters:

[I_Love_Pocky!]

I've got a degree in Physics

That is hardly not having an education. If I could recommend any other degree (other than CS) to an aspiring programmer, it would be Physics. It may even be preferable to a CS degree. There is no question that getting a Physics degree shows that you can think (and it helps develop those skills).

The point is, surely, that a piece of paper is no substitute for skill, talent and passion for the subject matter.

Agreed, but my point was that I often hear people who don't have an education attack education as worthless. I really don't see how they could know that.

Re:Three Letters:

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Except now you are an accountant. Gah i'd rather jab pointy objects into my eyes than have to be an accountant.

You have any idea how many hot women are accountants?

Re:Three Letters:

[kjs3]

Most people who think MBAs aren't worth the paper their printed on don't understand MBAs, business or where their paycheck comes from and why.

Ken - who is thankful that he's getting an MBA and understands that there is a bigger world out there.

Re:Three Letters:

[zerocool^]

To the original question: don't get a MBA...in another year, MBAs will be a dime a dozen, like MCSEs.

See, I'm starting to wonder about that statement.

I've worked at a computer build / network design / installation / repair shop now for 8 months. We're a midsized "small company" (~25 employees). We do enterprise level work, we're a microsoft certified partner, intel channel partner, GSA-scheduled, yada yada yada. All of our instore techs have to be A+, and onsite techs have to be MCP. And yet, no one in our store has an MCSE. My boss is only one test away, and we have another tech who is two tests away.

I know a lot of people in the area that do the things that an MCSE is supposed to signify knowledge of, and none of them have an MCSE. I also see lots of jobs with Defense contractors and the Gub'ment where an MSCE is the difference between $45,000/yr and $70,000/yr.

The only person I personally know with an MCSE is my father in law, who works for Unisys.

MCSE requires knowledge of the operating systems and prep to pass the tests, of which there are 7 required (at $125 a pop, not counting study materials). You have to take 4 networking design/implementation tests, a client OS test, a specific test dealing with designing active directory or security, and an elective test.

Just pointing out that, while bashing microsoft is as cool as ever, the MCSE cert is 1.) not easy, and 2.) still valuable.

Do you have an MCSE? I'd imagine that a good number of people on slashdot do have one. If not, could you pass 70-294 ("Planning, Implementing, and Maintaining a Microsoft Windows Server 2003 Active Directory Infrastructure")?

~Will

Re:Three Letters:

[Viv]

Actually, you can't just sit the test. The requirements vary from state to state, but the common thread is that you have to have a certain amount of accountancy education -- about 30 hours in most of the states whose rules I've looked at -- and a certain amount of public accountancy experience on top of it.

If you've already got a degree, by the time you've taken the 30 hours in accountancy, you're probably already eligible to graduate with a degree in accountancy. You might as well.

As far as CPA with CS goes, there is demand for it. A lot of it has to do with application building that aids in accounting throughout a company. Think of it like a TurboTax or Quicken tailored for one specific enterprise. Automating the books not only saves you money on the quarterly and yearly reports, but makes information available to management much faster.

Re:Three Letters:

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand why people seem to think that the only way to be educated is to get a degree. I've seen people with degrees not know what the degree purports to show they know. I myself don't have a degree - but I'm self driven as far as being educated goes. I've been told by people with Masters and Bachelors and Ph.D.s that I shouldn't worry about it, that I know my CS and they know I know my CS.

The point, to me, isn't that education is worthless. Education in the abstract is obviously priceless. The point is that there often is too much focus on what can be silly peices of paper.

Not having a degree doesn't mean uneducated. Having a degree doesn't prove you're educated, in all cases.

Do you see? The recognition of knowledge held shouldn't be based only upon a peice of paper. If you go to a college, and manage to get a degree, but don't actually care about learning, just about making it through and getting the degree - the degree ends up being meaningless. Sure, you went through the motions, and you get some 'advantage' over a guy like me who doesn't have a degree - but are you really educated? (Note that 'you' in this is an abstract 'you', not anyone in particular).

Re:Three Letters:

[VivianC]

I picked the MBA-TM. I will be done at the end of this year. It has been a good program and my passion is really in technology and not so much in business. but I do need the business skills. I'm not sure that there is much of a difference in how the two degrees will be percieved. Both are still MBAs.

When I finish, I'll have over 11 years in the technology field and nine of that with my current company. I'll even have some real life management experience. Can't beat that.

Re:Three Letters:

[rs79]

"not one, but two international tax treaties, to make income from a foreign assignment by a non-U.S. citizen that would otherwise not be taxable in the U.S. intentionally so taxable (and, *poof*, completely offset by foreign tax credits, ta da!), so the eligible moving expenses associated with the assignment, but paid in the following year, when a U.S. tax resident, are deductable against U.S. income in that following year"

Boy, doesn't that just roll off your tounge like

for (i = 0; i < t_max; k[i] = i++ |= (y % z));

Re:Three Letters:

[Nemi]

*Stares blankly for several seconds*

And I quote: Gah i'd rather jab pointy objects into my eyes than have to be an accountant.

Re:Three Letters:

[Registered Coward v2]

"Who the hell is Harvey Mudd and whats so special about Irvine?"


Harcort's brother.

Re:Three Letters:

[bikerguy99]

C'mon fellas, give him a break - he's a wonna be doc and knows not how to use html to break a paragraph...

Maybe that's why it is not a bad idea to have docs with computer skills...

Re:Three Letters:

[Glonoinha]

I'll tell you exactly what a BS/CS tells an employer : no matter how bad the project you get stuck on, no matter how painful, how many long nights or 72 hour weekends it takes - not only will you see it through to the end (even if quitting / dropping out is a LOT easier) and you will succeed.

Hmm - give the big four year project to someone that finished a hard four years in college, or someone that dropped out after two years?

Pretty simple math.

Re:Three Letters:

[junkwerks]

The other 3 letters: LAW --> patent law

Re:Three Letters:

[eno2001]

Actually, that was poorly worded, but I was in a hurry. The wife and kid were coming down the stairs for family time. ;P

What I meant is that it depends on this guy's goals. If he wants to arm himself with knowledge, then staying in academia is the way to go with the caveat that things are very different in the real world because you're usually not working with people who went to graduate school. If the guy just wants to get into a great job, he'd be better off leaving school and just pounding the streets trying to hustle his current knowledge, gaining experience by taking side jobs, etc... and trying to keep up with technology trends on his own. Again... higher education is usually the wrong place to learn technology since you don't usually experience the stupid limitations that the "real world" enforces you within an academic setting.

Working in a Cisco networking lab, Linux/Unix lab or AD domain in a college setting is nothing like working on the real thing. The real thing is usually quite lackluster and poorly implemented. It's just that the corporates don't realize how poor the skills of their employees are or they don't care. They make the mistake of assuming that if their main business isn't IT, they shouldn't put much stock in it.

Re:Three Letters:

[LnxAddct]

Err... My university required me to take just about all those courses that you mentioned, not too mention a hell of alot more math courses, tons of physics from newtonian and quantum, to astrophyics, not to mention chemistry and biology all with labs. Don't underestimate a CS degree, just underestimate the school. The requirements for anything vary greatly from school to school, I just happened to choose one that challenged me, but taught me more then ever imaginable.
Regards,
Steve

Re:Three Letters:

[sparklehackery]

I'll take my page out of the books of Job and Woz, thanks.

Job I know of. Where's Woz in the Bible?

Re:Three Letters:

[EnderWiggnz]

the harvard mba is crap...

harvard undergrad, is wonderful, but not the mba.

kellog, wharton, northwestern, stanford, ucla, mit, yale, and a couple others.

but not harvard.

Re:Three Letters:

[DrStubbs]

Nuts to employers. I'm currently doing my Master's in CS, and I'm getting paid a rather satisfactory lump of money to do so. That's right -- I'm making a comfortable living off learning, and engaging in entirely self-directed research. I plan to ride this gravy train right through my PhD and into professorship.

Seriously, I don't know why more people don't get in on this gig.

Re:Three Letters:

[Pete (big-pete)]

I picked the MBA-TM. I will be done at the end of this year.

From your information you don't seem to be based in the UK, so I'm guessing you didn't do the Open University MBA-TM (of course, I may be wrong!). All the same, what was your perception of the workload of the course? Is it something that's pretty tough to keep up with whilst working, and maintaining some level of social life, or is it something that I should count on sucking my time completely over the next three years?

Of course, I am willing to put in the effort, but I also have to be realistic about meeting the demands - I don't want to put that much cash on that table with a possibility of dropping out due to workload...

Cheers,

-- Pete.

Re:Three Letters:

[swillden]

for (i = 0; i < t_max; k[i] = i++ |= (y % z));

Three assignments without an intervening sequence point, *and* assignment to an rvalue!!

At least the tax shenanigans were legal.

Re:Three Letters:

[boodaman]

You misunderstood my post completely.

I wasn't bashing Microsoft. My point was that as soon as the market went south in 2000/2001, and people started losing their jobs, many, many people decided to go back to school. Many of those decided to go for the MBA, because a lot of them didn't have technical backgrounds, and what else would they go for (besides a law degree)?

I'm not knocking anyone who has a MBA, or a JD, or anything else. I am making an observation that for some degrees, there are a LOT of them, and there will be MORE of them this year and next as the people who went back 2001-2003-ish graduate.

I don't have a MCSE, because I've spent the last 15 years working with UNIX (and GNU/Linux). I also don't have a MCSE because there isn't a demand in my area. Why? Because there are a LOT of MCSEs. There are a LOT of people who read the books and passed the tests. That says nothing about their real-world expertise, their ability to manage projects, their ability to manage vendors, their ability to manage teams, etc. It says they possess a certain level of technical knowledge. That's cool....seriously, I commend anyone who gets advanced degrees or certifications.

That doesn't change that there are a LOT of them, and if that's the case (I believe it is), then how do you differentiate yourself from all the others? What is your value? What makes YOUR MCSE (hypothetically speaking) better than mine? What's my advantage? Like I said: get an advanced degree or certification. But have a PLAN for how it will make a difference and how you will get a return on your investment. Don't choose MBA because you're bored, or don't know, or because everyone else is doing it, or whatever. Ditto MCSE or any other cert or degree.

Have a plan, that's all I'm saying. And in my opinion, specializing at the Master level is a better bet, and a better plan, than a general degree.

On that note, if I were going for a cert at the moment instead of grad school, there is no question I'd be going for either a Cisco cert or CISSP. No question. Why? Because in my opinion they have higher value to me than a MCSE. That's not knocking MCSE (though I would think at that level they'd have a lab requirement like Cisco instead of just tests), it is just my observation of what would be better for me, and what would bring me a better return on my investment. For someone else, it might be MCSE or something else, that isn't the point.

Re:Three Letters:

[I_Love_Pocky!]

I very much agree with you. I only take exception to the folks who suggest a degree is worthless/waste of time. Getting a degree isn't the only valid way to learn, but it is a valid way to learn.

Re:Three Letters:

[zerocool^]

Ok, I see your point. Not "MBA and MCSE are worthless", but "What real value do they add to your resume?".

My resume strenghts are that I'm (soon to be) MCSA certified and I've spent 3 years previously as a GNU/Linux and Solaris network admin, so I'm balanced, plus I have a 4 year degree, so I'm willing to study. I think I'm good, but I figured that a MSCA/MCSE would help me out (switch hit between linux/windows).

Re:Three Letters:

[drauh]

English. Learn how to effin' write coherently.

Re:Three Letters:

[cskalias]

I agree with the post above, MBA's are a dime a dozen, and won't really mean anything unless you are from a top tier B-School. I have known dozens of MBA grads from no-name schools who have expected their lives to change (and who knows, for some it may), but the majority have told me that it has only had a marginal affect on their careers. Every businessperson I have ever respected (coming from a wide variety of undergraduate backgrounds be it Philosophy, Chemical Engineering, Computer Science, etc, etc) has always told me the same thing: don't get an MBA unless it is from a top ten business school. A top business school not only gives you the name, but also a much stronger alumni network. As a sidenote, I am sure many here on slashdot will downplay the value on a "name" of a school, but realistically speaking, top consulting firms and investment banks recruit almost exclusively at Ivies/MIT/Stanford. Google and Microsoft recruit extremely heavily at these "name-brand" schools (while pouring in tons of money into top eecs departments), while my friends at the University of Florida have never even SEEN a recruiter, much less spoken to one. It matters whether you like it or not. However, I do not necessarily agree that getting a specialized bachelor's is any better. Depending on your career of choice, spending time in school to learn what you could on the job not only could have an exorbitant opportunity cost, but it pigeon holes you in an economy that very much seems to demand flexibility and a capability to learn, rather than past knowledge acquired.

Re:Three Letters:

[KidAnalog]

I agree that there are some important things learned in school. However, when It comes to hireing a programmer I rather get someone with 5 years work experience and no education then some kid fresh out of university. There is more things a person learns from experience then from going to university. Although, univeristy can be a fun party, it is nothing compared to a real world few projects under your belt.

I just recently hired a compsci PHD, don't get me wrong he's a really smart man, but it sure does take him long to solve threading issues. not to mention he's the lowest paid programmer on the team.

Respectivly, there is a programmer on my team that is self taught and has 4 years experience in the industry. He has build hundred's of multi threaded applications and can spot a race condition in seconds.

If you do not learn what the great minds learnt/invented/solved
You don't to go to school to learn what has been solved in the past you just need to order a book.

oh yeah, Knowing how to read helps too.

Re:Three Letters:

[Limax Maximus]

Too right! The university I work at has an MBA scheme - the department claims it is the best in the UK (don't they all!) however the support headache from them is massive so I hate them before I try and sort their problems...

My degree is in Environmental Science however I now work in building one of the UK's largest deployment of mixed media WANs in some of the most wireless hostile parts of the England along with some of the worst weather.

Of the people we employ in networking the bulk of the senior ones have Natural Sciences backgrounds with only one out of 6 with a computer science degree (2nd time of asking too). Of the newer people the bulk are computer scientists however knowing the theory doesn't appear to help them with being able to make radios talk or routers route. Interestingly, all of the ones that can get their heads round all of our network are dyslexic, the ones who aren't have real problems and often cannot find a solution to many problems.

Go out with your CS degree (now I've slagged them off a bit) and get experience. An MBA isn't going to help do a technical job, infact any degree isn't going to help after your first.

And the most use I make of my degree? I know when it'll piss it down so I make sure someone else goes to climb the radio mast...

Re:Three Letters:

[bluegreenturtle]

I'll tell you exactly what a BS/CS tells an employer : no matter how bad the project you get stuck on, no matter how painful, how many long nights or 72 hour weekends it takes - not only will you see it through to the end (even if quitting / dropping out is a LOT easier) and you will succeed.

If a degree tells an employer that then that employer is a fool. Earning of a degree, while a necessary step, has very little relation to the worth/ability of the person holding it. I have a degree and it has no bearing on my ability to complete a job. Education has no value in itself - only in relation to the person holding it. I'm an IT manager and I have to say that without question almost every CS degree that has walked through my door has been an idiot who basically has to be trained from scratch. The best IT people I know are ones who are simply exceptionally interested in the subject and put in huge hours doing and by doing, learning.

To compare to another industry, if you tell me that you have a music degree, that tells me nothing about your skills, abilities, or *most important and what you are mentioning here* your ability to push through and finish things and keep going when it gets rough. If you tell me that you are a professional musician who makes a good living that way and gigs continously, (and you appear to be telling the truth) that tells me a) you know your profession b) you know how to develop skills c) you know how to practice and keep doing even when you are in pain or would rather be somewhere else d) you are easy enough to work with that people choose to keep hiring you.

It's the same with CS/IT. A degree tells me nothing about you. Your successful work history, good references and ability to keep working with the same people for a reasonable period of time does.

Re:Three Letters:

[DustyShadow]

I'd say that an MBA would go well with an engineering masters. The majority of my managers do not have MBA's and I don't know too many that do. I work for a 130,000+ person defense company. From what I can tell, we like people with advanced engineering degrees. I'm currently going to pursue a C.S. masters and then either do an M.B.A. or J.D. after that. I'm very interested in law (patents and IP) and wouldn't mind ditching the corporate world for a private practice later on. I feel that an engineering masters will help my career then and also help to get me into a better law school.

Re:Three Letters:

[boaworm]

Well, we have a new guy in the office. He has 3 MS certificates, MCSE, MCP and one other. The very first day, I had to walk him through how to set up his email account...

These Microsoft certificates obviously dont mean jack shit about practical experience. What they do mean is that he has the capability to read material, and puke it up on an examination. That's what they are worth.

In my oppinion, you have to have both hands-on experience, and a wide theoretical background. Theory for the understanding of the broader view, and experience to get things done and quickly identify and correct problems/solutions.

For us, these certificates dont mean that he is an expert in any way, but I most certainly dont think he is a computer illiterate. He just needs a few months to get his hands dirty.

Re:Three Letters:

[RWerp]

I'll take my page out of the books of Job and Woz, thanks.

Job I know of. Where's Woz in the Bible?

He doesn't have a degree, you know...

Re:Three Letters:

[RWerp]

Having learned Quantum Mechanics, Special Relativity and Statistical Mechanics, you still can't learn some damn formalism?

Re:Three Letters:

[RWerp]

I've noticed that people without an education generally seem to view education in one of two ways: Either they wish they had more education, or they denounce education as a waste of money/time.

Simple: sour grapes.

Re:Three Letters:

[RWerp]

Because not many of even intelligent and able people make good researchers. Research in a competitive environment is pretty stressing, to add. Also, there is a limited number of PhD positions available.

Re:Three Letters:

[Mold]

Speaking as someone with his masters in CS, a CS degree is for research, not the so-called real world work.

Your specific points:
- compiler theory: Leave this to the compiler makers. Seriously, when was the last time you altered the source of your compiler to make it more efficient? And for a company project, it's going to be more important to make your code modular and maintainable than super-tweaked-assembler-efficient.

- relational model: This is probably the one you've hit the nail with. While not strictly necessary, it can solve headaches later. But it is also probably the easiest to pick up on your own, and you'll get decent at it while working anyway.

- discrete maths
Basically useless. They're necessary for a good foundation in CS theory (ie, more research) but for actual work, your language and toolset are going to force this sort of thing on you anyway.

- data structure basics:
You can't work without these, and they're easy to learn. You can't have work experience without knowing these, and they're easy to get from a book.

- algorithms:
Most likely, you're going to get these on the job. Sure, school will teach you some, but not all of them. The only type I can think of coming up frequently are graph algorithms anyway.

As to learning / using what came before: You're going to be using specific toolsets and libraries. That's half the fun of code reuse. And if you don't have one readily available, you're going to find one if at all possible. Otherwise, you're reinventing the wheel whether you went to school or not.

Real-world experience is very important, for real-world work, and a degree will be useful, but is not necessary.

Saying you NEED a CS degree to program is like saying you need a mechanical engineering degree to put together a toy rocking horse that you bought your children for Christmas. I know it's not a great analogy, but it's the best I can think of for now.

Re:Three Letters:

[RWerp]

If I were to advise what other degree to take, I'd say Physics or Mathematics. It will have enormous advantages to it:

• Physics teaches you how the world really works, including computers (Solid State Physics).
• Physics and Mathematics teach you analytical thinking, putting your reasoning in the most precise form: equations, and -- strange as it may sound -- cure you forever from the "Oh my God! An equation! Panick!!!" syndrome which is prevalent in today's society.
• Both sciences teach you how to create models of phenomena, an enormous advantage for anyone who wants to do more in his life than just do repetitive tasks void of creativity.
• There's a hype over Quantum Information Processing. People will not go easily over it, because it offers enormous prospects. It's nice to be able to understand what is superposition, spin, Pauli principle and unitary transformation. It may even mean getting an interesting job (there'se a shortage of algorithms for QIP and people are needed to fill the gap).

Re:Three Letters:

[spectecjr]

Having learned Quantum Mechanics, Special Relativity and Statistical Mechanics, you still can't learn some damn formalism?

I probably could. It's just a matter of getting around to doing it, because I've found nearly zero use for it in day to day life. It's rare to come up with a new algorithm - most of them have been done already. At which point you're reduced to building routines using algorithms as lego blocks.

Even so, a lot of big-O notation is ... well... not quite accurate any more. It only applies to decoherent datasets in secondary storage. Caching, branch prediction, pipelining, etc etc, all change the way these things work. For example, for a small dataset insertion sorts are much more efficient than a quicksort or a heapsort. Although that's contrary to what you'd learn in a class on algorithms.

Re:Three Letters:

[RWerp]

That's what education is for: to force us to learn things we would be too lazy to learn on our own.

Re:Three Letters:

[Chris Kamel]

Programming isn't a difficult task
That probably means you spent too much time with books and too little time writing code yourself.

Re:Three Letters:

[matfud]

Big O notation is still relevent. You just have to remeber that it has never been able to tell you which algorithm is "faster". It only ever tells you how an algorithm scales with its dataset.

Cache hits, branch mispredictions et al have a constant upper bound for the worst case performance they can cause and it is not dependent on the size of the data set. That means it is a constant in Big O notation.

Big O notation is generally useless for small datasets but then for small datasets you often don't care about the performance as it is sufficiently fast. If not you have to profile.

Re:Three Letters:

[bkr1_2k]

I'll have to disagree here. I have over 12 years of solid experience in my field (electrical/system engineering) and it's hard for me to have lateral mobility due to lack of the required education. I can certainly move up (until I hit my personal ceiling) within my own company but it's hard to move elsewhere.

To the OP:
I agree that a couple more years of experience is generally better than a Masters of any kind, but why not do both? Have your company pay for you Masters (MBA, CS, EE, whatever) and then use it to work for something better for yourself.

As for which degree to get, do the one that interests you the most. Forget what anyone else says you "should" have, do what you like. The rest will fall into place anyway.

bkr

Re:Three Letters:

[bkr1_2k]

You're not serious are you? Every physicist I've ever met neglects this effect or that effect when doing their research. Does it work? Sure to a certain extent, but having a CS degree the OP already has a strong basis in math and physics. Certainly enough to know "how the world really works, including computers (Solid State Physics)"

Physics like you describe are for people who want to build computers, not use them.

Re:Three Letters:

[bkr1_2k]

While an MBA may be a good degree, I would think something along the lines of Engineering Management would be better. You still gain more technical knowlege but you have to learn management information too.

I don't know how common these programs are but several schools in the DC area have decent graduate programs in Engineering Management so I'm sure it can be found elsewhere as well.

Re:Three Letters:

[pzs]

I've got a PhD in CS and have been postdoc-ing 2 1/2 years. I'm currently looking for new work.

I got a call from a recruitment agent about a Python job. I have quite a lot of Python experience since my PhD code was all in Python and I've used it for all kinds of jobs from databases to my mp3 jukebox. However, when I started telling him about this he said that only *commercial* programming experience made any difference. He said, and I quote, "The fact that you could do this job with your eyes shut is neither here nor there, the people who employ you will need to justify their decision and they will do that with commercial experience".

This obviously means that a Geography graduate with 2 years working for a crappy IT consultancy has more effective programming experience than me, even though I've been programming for more than 10 years.

I'm not saying that this agent is typical, but nevertheless I think that as long as you have the minimum (probably a degree), quite a few employers don't give a rusty f*** about how much more education you have.

Peter

Re:Three Letters:

[iONiUM]

I agree that the masters is for people who just want to "know" more, and it's not for marketability.

But what about those (like me), who have their CS degree, and still think education was a waste of time? A big waste. I like computers, but i don't give a shit about a lot of what they taught me. Do i want to make money off them? Of course, they're my job and my hobby. But a lot of what they taught was irrelevant or not interesting, and certainly not practical. There's interest, and then there's stupidity, where it just goes TOO far.

Re:Three Letters:

[NDPTAL85]

Masters Degrees are very expensive. Where is the person supposed to get the money to pay for one?

You mention programming is easy, I think thats a baldfaced lie. If it was most of our software would be bug free. But its not. Most software sucks. Why? Because programming is hard and only a few people degree or no degree know how to do it well.

Re:Three Letters:

[NDPTAL85]

Actually forcing people to learn things they don't want to and will never use is more about justifying an antiquated academic system with highly paid tenured professors whose classes would be empty were their courses not "mandatory".

Re:Three Letters:

[Meostro]

I've noticed that people without an education generally seem to view education in one of two ways: Either they wish they had more education, or they denounce education as a waste of money/time

What about those who agree with both views?

I wish I had it only because it's how others will judge me on my resume. I don't have a BS, so 80% of jobs that I would want can be ruled out just from that requirement. Doesn't matter if it's from MIT or from East Podunk Community College, it's just a boolean. I wish I had it for some of the really esoteric stuff that's interesting to me, but has no practical application in the real world. I'm interested in compression algorithms, but I plan on using gzip and bzip2 because I don't have the time to concentrate on making something better. I might learn how to do it, but I never actually will.

I think it's a waste of time because of the number of morons that have degrees. Yes, there are some really bright people out there with degrees that simply confirm their credentials, but there are an awful lot of graduates that are simply worthless, even in their field of study.

It's also a waste of time because I've already learned this stuff out of necessity. For the non-CS people here, imagine going back to learn your multiplication tables again, and having to sit through the entire class waiting for Timmy to figure out "what do you get when you multiply six by nine?" when you're already doing algebra and trig. That's what college feels like to me.

Re:Three Letters:

[graphicsguy]

I guess that agent can say goodbye to his commission.

Re:Three Letters:

[I_Love_Pocky!]

I've never had any formal training but I can guarantee that my understand of CS is broader than yours.

Probably.

What is Computer Science? I'm curious to hear how a self-taught individual answers that question.

Education isn't something you go into a special building to do.

No, it's something you can go into a special building to do. A lot of people have responded to me claiming that they didn't learn anything getting their BS in Computer Science. I have a hard time believing this. I imagine they went to school to become programmers, and were disappointed to find out that Computer Science has very little to do with programming. These are the folks who really did waste their time (if they can't see how all of the other stuff they were "forced" to learn broadens their experience). If they wanted to be taught programming in a structured setting (Personally I'd prefer a book), they should have gone to a tech school.

Re:Three Letters:

[sprekken]

The biggest thing people HOPEFULLY gain in college is a strong network of friends and acquaintances

I wish I'd done college the conventional way too, but dropped out as a freshman to get a job paying good money. I'm now stuck going back to school for a degree, not because I think I need it (although I do think it may help), but because I have fallen in love with learning new things.

I'm almost finished with my A.S in Computer Sci, but instead of going on to get my B.S. in C.S. I've decided to get one in Physics. It is SOOOOOOOOOOO much more interesting, and order of magnitudes more challenging. I am doing it for the love of the subject, and for the feeling of accomplishment that I will feel when I'm done. Getting a C.S. degree to me would be like going back to 4th grade and having to listen to "See Dick Run!" over and over and over and over again...

Re:Three Letters:

[jcohen]

"I'll take my page out of the books of Job and Woz, thanks."

If you're going to take a page out of the Book of Job, be ready for some major skin disease.

Re:Three Letters:

[Thu Anon Coward]

Masters Degrees are very expensive. Where is the person supposed to get the money to pay for one?


from your employer...duh. and if your employer doesn't pay for it, then find another employer who values you as a human being and wants you to become better at your job.

Re:Three Letters:

[cheetr]

I've got a rinky-dink piece of paper from a school that no longer exists. Took me 8 months to get, wasn't worth shit, wasted a lot of money, haven't used anything that I learned in there since I got out.

All I can say is choose your schools/programs better. Some off the wall certification in using windows or some crap from "Computer School Incorporated" is not even close to what real education is. On the other hand, you only learn by teaching yourself. Programs and Professors are only facilitators.

Re:Three Letters:

[LaCosaNostradamus]

That all depends on what you value an MBA for. Currently, MBAs are highly valued for their ability to crash companies in the most lucrative way for the executive class they exist in.

As long as "we" continue to reward economic speculators and destroyers, then lethal parasites like MBAs will continue to find a market for their skills in outsourcing, offshoring, alienation, securities and accounting fraud, and all the rest of it.

In short, people may think murder is a bad thing, but when it's time to hire a hitman, they sure do pony up a lot of money to get the job done.

Re:Three Letters:

[Doomdark]

I've got a very large bookshelf full of worn texts I've read back to front a dozen times and numerous large, successful projects under my belt.

And your reading skills are seriously lacking. You didn't even bother trying to grasp what I said. I specifically said that ALTHOUGH IT IS POSSIBLE TO LEARN THESE THINGS, FEW DO. You apparently did. Does not contradict my point at the slightest.

Each to his own. I got my CS degree without paying a penny (not in USA, mind you); have had a nice career so far, and have no regrets about learning computer science in a school. You chose the other path, fine, great, whatever (I probably agree, though, that going for a 8-month diploma factory wasn't worth the money you paid for -- surprise surprise)

Only an idiot would think that the DEGREE itself greatly matters; it's the things you learn (or do not learn) while earning it that do. Stop fighting straw-men, mr. self-made consultant man.

Re:Three Letters:

[Doomdark]

That aside, a degree is a waste of time. Go spend that time in an entry-level position and build yourself up that way.

It all depends on what exactly you want to do. If you are mostly after career, you may be right. To climb the ladder, you don't really need to be an expert in the domain you start at (and it may be beneficial not to be, or even perceived as one). And couple of years you "save" by skipping higher education do allow you to climb farther.

However, by doing that, you chose not to become the domain expert. When you get that job, you do learn things, but only what exactly you need right now; after all, you have a job to do. As a student, studying the field more broadly is your work. Some people (many geeks, I would assume) do want to be best in their fields; others want to get the titles, money, or to get into positions with bigger responsibilities (managers, executives etc).

So I do disagree with the blanket statement of getting education (via degree earning curriculum) being waste of time; it may be, it might not be. And most often it's not complete waste of time -- it just might not be the most optimal way.

Just my 2 cents. :-)

Re:Three Letters:

[ShieldW0lf]

Only an idiot would think that the DEGREE itself greatly matters; it's the things you learn (or do not learn) while earning it that do. Stop fighting straw-men, mr. self-made consultant man.

As far as education goes, what you learn matters. But the original poster asked what he should do for his career. And as far as that goes, I've advised him that it's what you've done is what matters. You're putting forth an opinion, as far as I'm concerned an erronious one, that he can further his career equally well going into formal education or going to work. And having a dig at me while you're at it.

And your reading skills are seriously lacking. You didn't even bother trying to grasp what I said. I specifically said that ALTHOUGH IT IS POSSIBLE TO LEARN THESE THINGS, FEW DO. You apparently did. Does not contradict my point at the slightest.

Your point is irrelevant. Lots of people go to school and fail too. Lots of people get jobs and then fuck the dog and let the union keep them employeed. But if someone asks for advice on how to further their career, you don't tell them "Don't do this, it would be the most effective option if you show inititive, but most people don't, so don't bother with it. Just go back to school in this field. No, that probably won't do much help you, just put off biting the bullet a few more years, but sheep do well there and most people are sheep."

Consider two applicants applying for a job, say it's a combination of DBA work and internal application development in the natural gas industry.

1) I've got a Masters in Computer Science. I've also got a Bachelor of Science with a major in Chemistry. I'm a smart guy, and am confident that I can do this job.

or

2) I've done this before. While working for XYZ Construction, I was a DBA and built several internal apps using technology X, which i understand you use. I did information gathering from various departments, helped them determine precisely what they needed, improved the efficiency of their database significantly allowing their employees to operate more effectively, and built a half-dozen custom apps which are being used right this moment by x people on a daily basis. No, I don't have an education, but if you wanna ask these guys at XYZ, they'll back up what I've told you.

Who would you hire to fix your problem? I know who most would hire, and it's not the guy who spend years expanding their horizons in school.

Now, getting that experience means getting in on the ground floor and taking on every task you can so they don't give it to someone else. And more degrees isn't going to help you do that. You're more likely to get the "overqualified and plans to take off in no time flat" card played on you than anything else if you try.

If this guy wants to go back for more school, more power to him. It's not the most effective means to progress his career though. The decision should be made solely on what he's interested in learning about and working with in the future. He will be able to leverage it, never said that he wouldn't. Just that it's not the choice to make if your career is your priority.

Re:Three Letters:

[boodaman]

Exactly.

The people who find the people to interview are not technical people. All they have is a checklist, and in the case of most large corporations, the checklist cannot be changed. The checklist itself, other than the specific requirements for that particular job, probably wasn't made by technical people, either.

Things like 4 year degree required, no telecommute, salary range, etc. are typically corporate rules made by people who aren't technical.

So you have someone (or even an automated scanner doing OCR) going through all of the candidates. If you don't meet the basic criteria, your info will be discarded. Nothing else matters, not even how much experience you have or if you can prove via untraditional means that you can do the job.

Re:Three Letters:

[boodaman]

That agent is being smart.

The agent wastes their time, and a candidate's time, trying to push a candidate through the system if they know that candidate will just be rejected in the end.

In selling, being able to tell which leads aren't worth your time and effort is just as valuable as knowing which leads *are* worth it.

Re:Three Letters:

[Heretik]

For example, for a small dataset insertion sorts are much more efficient than a quicksort or a heapsort. Although that's contrary to what you'd learn in a class on algorithms.

No it's not. Better Big-O doesn't mean faster on all datasets - it means asymptotically faster, ie faster after a certain point.

There's no way you could get through a university algorithms course without learning this (usually with nice little graphs where you can see the functions cross over at some point, which you're probably going to have to calculate).

Re:Three Letters:

[jpoplover]

Unless you have a masters in bovine excrementology, a masters is good because you can understand why things are the way they are, plus also communicate at a strategic level (where the money is). A vendor cert is just as good as a masters, providing you have experience, if no experience, then a masters and a vendor cert are benficial. I currently work in China (I am from New Zealand) as a consultant to the IT manager, and earn $85,000 US per year (very nice). However, should you do a masters, then nothing stops you doing a doctorate (involves coming up with something new - usually taking two frameworks/ideas and joining them into one and putting your name on it). While doing a Masters or a Doctorate, you will meet industry leaders, who often steal students to can think. If you complete a doctorate, you can join the conference circuit and retire early, or just do two per year. Anyway, enough of my inane dribble, I have a research methods assignment to complete. Later.

Re:Three Letters:

[TheMohel]

As a CS/Math/Physics BA, with sixteen years of software experience, and then an MD, residency, and now an active practice of medicine, I have got to say that I have found one seriously stupid way to make a living. The pay's not bad (I make about 50% more than I did as an engineer) and I get to stick people with sharp things once in a while, but other than that you'd be smarter to get the MBA. The hours suck, pretty much, and there aren't very many fields where the question is not whether you will be hit with a multimillion-dollar lawsuit, but when.

Hospital IT is particularly entertaining. I do a lot of it, because I'm the only physician in our large organization who's ever written software for a living. But that means that I'm also the only one who knows how to design, document, or test code. It brings life to the old adage, "in the country of the blind, the one-eyed man is the only one who cares about how damn dark it is."

But hey, if you really want to be a doctor, be one. I love the work. My patients like me, mostly. I actually save lives, once in a while. I get to play with cool toys.

And there is that whole sharp-thing gig going. Imagine being able to actually stick long needles into your software clients, and having them thank you, and getting to bill for it!

Re:Three Letters:

[Ytsejam-03]

Well, Dexter Holland (singer of Offspring) was majoring in Bionuclear Engineering at USC, and then decided to start a punk band...seems to me that the options are limitless as far as what degree goes well with another...

So what's your point? Was Dexter Holland also working on in a degree in music when his band was signed?

Musical talent has absolutely nothing to do with being signed to a major label. The majors are concerned with the marketability of the "artists" they sign, and musical talent is secondary. The thinking is that they can make virtually anyone sound good with the right producer and enough money. Thanks to the wonders of autotune and Pro-Tools, they're right.

Are you saying that Dexter Holland is a candidate for a music degree because he sings for a major label band? Can he even sing on key without autotune? The only people who likely know are the ones who were in the studio when he layed down his vocal tracks.

In addition to the site you linked (www.ind-music.com), you can find lots of great indie-label bands here and here. I can't remember the last time I listened to music from a major label artist.

Re:Three Letters:

[PingPongBoy]

Programs and Professors are only facilitators

Studying computer science in university will help you learn about computers, but you do have to do a huge amount of learning by yourself just to be able to make the machines do your bidding. Software is very complex with tons of features and professors do not show you how to do every little thing that make your life easier. They talk about concepts that are difficult to conceive by people who just poke around trying out this button and that button on the screen.

Regardless of what education you attained, once you start doing professional work you realize that you didn't learn things in school that you need to use and you learned things in school that you don't need to use. In some ways it's a mixture of comedy and tragedy, but not to get too emotional, you need to be flexible, knowledgeable, and full of life skills and motivation, especially for learning and achieving.

Being skilled and driven is good for achievement, but I really have to wonder where it's all headed. Software is being invented all the time to simplify computer work, and the distance between classes of computer users may widen. On the one hand computer illiterates may be able to set up major systems or perform complex tasks due to the proliferation of wizards, open source programs, plug and play, etc. The interfaces are just getting easier.

This makes the labor associated with computer work less valuable due to oversupply. On the other hand, computers are looked to for solving bigger and bigger problems.

Right now I don't take my computer skills as seriously any more, and I'm trying to learn more about science and math. It's not as easy to learn compared to programming. For example, what is dark matter?

We are headed for an era where more basic work is mechanized. People are going to have to tackle problems that have more difficult answers just to be able to earn minimum wage.

The study of computer science comes full circle, then. The student learns how to control a computer in order to have it do a task, but the student learned recursion! Surely a computer can be made to do a task that was done by a computer scientist. Twenty years ago, one can learn computer science and practice it for the rest of one's life, but today there is a lot more computer science and a lot more computing power. Perhaps the answer to the question what is required to go along with a computer science degree is nothing. The computer science program ought to develop students that transcend the state of the art, making a computer science degree the ultimate degree rather than a component degree.

best degree to compliment comp sci

[dmf415]

While at high school I was aware that there were many different areas of computing, but what made me focus on a degree combining both computer science and electronic engineering was how well they compliment each other. When applying for a place at university, La Trobe courses were listed as my top 4 preferences. I was and still am very impressed with the quality of the course, industry collaboration, the focus on industry-accredited projects, the lifestyle and environment.
One of the most important aspects of my undergraduate course was that it focused on making people more employable by providing many opportunities to develop communication, research, practical and team working skills.
I completed my undergraduate course last year and immediately found employment as a graduate engineer with Vision Systems Limited. While working for Vision Systems, I decided to pursue a postgraduate qualification by research at La Trobe. Because of La Trobe's commitment to encouraging industry collaboration and research, I was able to arrange to undertake a research topic that was of interest to my employer. Thus, currently I am doing my Master of Engineering by research, while working part time as an engineer. La Trobe is flexible enough to allow me to develop both academically and professionally.

Re:best degree to compliment comp sci

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you mention "La Trobe" anymore times?

Christ, you sound more like Marketing than Engineering.

Re:best degree to compliment comp sci

[maysonl]

and incompetent marketing at that - he didn't even post a link!

Re:best degree to compliment comp sci

[EngMedic]

"Master of Engineering" ??

*cough*Astroturf!*cough*

Re:best degree to compliment comp sci

[paitre]

This reads to me like a straight up piece of marketing trash from the technical training school.
Take parent with a -VERY- large grain of salt...

Re:best degree to compliment comp sci

[pyite]

If it comes from a real school, a Master of Engineering is a very good degree. For example, MIT offers Master of Engineering. http://cee.mit.edu/index.pl?id=4629&isa=Category&o p=show

Re:best degree to compliment comp sci

[veltyen]

http://www.latrobe.edu.au/

Not a bad Uni. My Sis did physiotherapy there.

I can think of a few...

[Jhon]

A Business degree. After your 40th birthday, you may find it difficult to find new employment if the need arrises. If you've got a business degree and have moved in to managment, you'll probably find it easier. The pay will be better, too.

A Mathematics degree "plays" nicely with a CS degree, too.

Re:I can think of a few...

[The Amazing Fish Boy]

A Business degree

I second that.

Not to mention, when you get a business degree, you will be able to more easily understand why management does as they do, and get along better with your managers. Then you're likely to get promoted in-house, in which case your "underlings" will know you as a programmer and you'll likely get respect. You'll also be able to understand them, and make informed decisions. A bridge between management and IT. Just don't try to micromanage.

Of course, that's in-house. Getting a different job would be easier, too.

Another thing is your health. It may not be a good idea for health reasons to program all day long into your sixties. Just a thought.

Re:I can think of a few...

[over_exposed]

Agreed. Also math, physics, EE, bio, chem... Any of the "big sciences" all tie in nicely with CS. It depends on what your interests are. Pair it with something you enjoy so that classes won't feel like a waste of time and any job resulting won't bore you to tears. None of these sciences would have made it to where they are now without computer technology and they'll openly admit it.

Re:I can think of a few...

[JWW]

Just don't try to micromanage.

I thought that was one of the main things business schools are teaching today. ;-) I just read an article last week (The Economist I think) where a noted economist wrote a paper stating that a lot of what has been considered good business practice taught to MBAs turned out to be very poor in reality.

Re:I can think of a few...

[dubdays]

An addition benefit of a business degree with CS is that being from a hard science, business is often difficult to understand. Why are you writing that ledger program for the accountants on their AS/400? Or how do you calculate EBITDA or any other number on an income statement, and how do the head decision-makers in a company want to see the resulting data? It really would make your job easier if you happen to be programming financial systems.

Re:I can think of a few...

[chris_mahan]

>...a lot of what has been considered good business practice taught to MBAs turned out to be very poor in reality.

Really? Wow... I had no idea.

Re:I can think of a few...

[MPHellwig]

"Another thing is your health. It may not be a good idea for health reasons to program all day long into your sixties."

Me I don't worry about that, I'll bet that most coders won't make their 60 doing coding either way.
But then again I could just as easily loose that bet.
I'll see what happen in the next 34 years, till then I'll try to stick to work that is hobby like.

Re:I can think of a few...

[nite_warrior]

Not only those. The best thing I find about comp sci is that it can be nicely combined with pretty much everything from the "big sciences" to arts or any other thing.

Re:I can think of a few...

[John Hurliman]

I third the motion. Go in to general business and take a few courses here and there to find out what interests you; maybe you want to invest in real estate on the side, or maybe you'd like to increase your chance of moving in to middle management (management degree) or upper management (accounting degree, there are more CEOs with CPAs than any other professional certification or degree, and it's an obvious step towards CFO).

Re:I can think of a few...

[Coryoth]

Why are you writing that ledger program for the accountants on their AS/400? Or how do you calculate EBITDA or any other number on an income statement, and how do the head decision-makers in a company want to see the resulting data? It really would make your job easier if you happen to be programming financial systems.

Because obviously that is the sot of thing you just can't learn outside of a degree program in Business or Accounting. Did you consider maybe just asking people these things, or doing some quick study in EBITDA, income statements, etc.? Are the answers to those questions the sort of thing that you won't understand without a few years of education under your belt?

Jedidiah.

Re:I can think of a few...

[JWW]

Yeah, really, but don't worry, you're not alone. Quite a few Business School Professors had no idea either... ;-)

Re:I can think of a few...

[Gunnery Sgt. Hartman]

I was thinking personal hygeine would be a good one.

Re:I can think of a few...

[chris_mahan]

There was a fairly substantial dose of sarcasm in my post. See my sig.

Re:I can think of a few...

[GileadGreene]

Which is fine if you want to spend your life programming financial systems. But it's not going to help to help you so much if you are programming embedded software for the automotive market, or developing large telecommunications apps. If you enjoy business, then by all means take a degree in it. But don't do an advanced degree to enhance your "marketability". Do it because it is something you are genuinely interested in learning more about, in a field that you actually enjoy working in. Your life will be much more pleasant both during and after the degree.

As far as your specific examples go, they all sound like things should be determined during the requirements gathering process by talking to the actual users. Why assume that you know why they want what they want, how they want it calculated, and how it should be presented? Ask them! They are the experts. Not that I'm saying a little domain knowledge isn't helpful in talking to a customer. It helps to have a common language. But I debate the need to take an entire degree in a discipline in order to achieve a little fluency in the language.

Re:I can think of a few...

[Teclis]

A Mathematics degree "plays" nicely with a CS degree, too.

My comment to that is a quote from Richard Feynman:

"Mathematics is to Physics what Masturbation is to Sex"

But then, I'm a Physicist.

Re:I can think of a few...

[kyodi]

I would vote for the Mathematics degree. I'm currently working on that and software engineering. You've taken a lot of high level math to get the CS degree....few more classes and you've got another bachelors degree. Also, a mathematics degree is VERY flexible and makes you more of an asset.

Re:I can think of a few...

[JWW]

I know, hence the wink.

But honestly there were quite a few professors not happy with the report.

Hindi

[lecithin]

I don't know about a degree, but I would recommend taking Hindi.

Re:Hindi

[Anonymous Coward]

Possibly a good minor with the oft suggested MBA.

Re:Hindi

[Celestial Avenger]

Japanese for the Computer Scientist, Hindi for the Computer Engineer.

Re:Hindi

[blew_fantom]

*hindi accent* thank you very much and have a nice day!

Re:Hindi

[dynamo]

I agree with your predicitons for the future of america, all of those things are already happening, just not as widespread /severe as they surely will be in 2025.

But what the hell do you suggest the 'Americans' do to 'take destiny into their own hands'? If our crazy leaders enjoy quashing rebellions all over the rest of the world, doesn't it follow that they're deadly efficient at quashing rebellion at home? Our media ignores any protest, or mass dissent our citizens attempt. Our votes are run through republican-controlled machines for tallies.

We put people to death here with state approval. We send 'enemy combatants' to other countries to be tortured. We have the most expensive and least comprehensive healthcare. We would be spending half of our federal budget on war, except that for some reason the president keeps the war OUT of the budget entirely, as if it's some kind of unexpected emergency that pops up, every 6 months or so. Why do we put up with it? Well, there isn't really much we can do - at least without lots of money. Rights have become de-emphasized in the 'post-9/11' US. Fear is the replacement.

This is the dark side of the world, buddy.

Re:Hindi

[cj79]

Based on some of the IT people I have worked with, taking some English courses and being able to actually compose a readable email could go a long way.

CWP

[RevDobbs]

Why, you'll want your Master Certified Web Professional Certification, of course.

Interpretive Dance

[Gilmoure]

Entertain your users.

Re:Interpretive Dance

[EnronHaliburton2004]

"Interpretive Dance" is also known as "Technical Documentation".

Re:Interpretive Dance

[Lemmy Caution]

"I call this next piece, 'Scope Drift.'"

The choreography consists of taking the original requirements, ripping them to shreds, and running around screaming as you throw them into the air like confetti.

Re:Interpretive Dance

[TykeClone]

Hmm. I thought sanskrit was used for Technical Documentation while Interpretive Dance was for the help desk jockeys.

Re:Interpretive Dance

[rzebram]

Underwater basket weaving would also make a nice complement.

Re:Interpretive Dance

[DavidYaw]

"I call this next piece, 'Scope Drift.'"

The choreography consists of taking the original requirements, ripping them to shreds, and running around screaming as you throw them into the air like confetti.

Wow! I thought I was just frustrated, but it turns out I've been doing interpretive dance for years and didn't know it!

Re:Interpretive Dance

[tepples]

Hmm. I thought sanskrit was used for Technical Documentation

Well, sanskrit is said to be the ancestor of Hindi, which (along with English and Kannada) is widely spoken where all the jobs have gone.

Re:Interpretive Dance

[TykeClone]

Funny, insightful, you just don't know which way I'm going with it :)

The root of comedy is the truth and things are funnier if they seem to have some root in the truth. A dual edged joke like I made is just plain gold :)

Having said that, I'm sure that the root language of Hindi is just as useful for conveying techinical instructions to today's Indians and some form of Norske would be for me.

Re:Interpretive Dance

[EnronHaliburton2004]

I think sanskrit is the ancestor of all European languages as well, which is why so many languages are grouped under the "Indo-European" language family.

Here's an illustration from the American Heritage Dictionary showing the relationships.

Re:Interpretive Dance

[TykeClone]

That's cool!

Re:Interpretive Dance

[cfalcon]

This is a truly profound post.

I am humbled before it.

Biochemistry

[dso]

I would have to say the Biochemistry is your best bet. That whole area of research is becoming dependent of computer technology. Datamining is a large part of genetic research along with molecular modeling (proteins) and distributed computer systems. Also, take a look at SGI (www.sgi.com) and see what they are doing. Their core business is focusing on areas where computers and science converge.

Re:Biochemistry

[BWJones]

It really depends upon what he wants to do. A Masters or doctorate in bioinformatics combined with a bachelors in CS will get you a job very quickly and would be a much better choice than biochemistry if he really wanted to do that kind of work. Look at any one of these programs for bioinformatics training.

Chemistry, economics, business, biology, genetics, physics, computer science, neuroscience are all fields that could use folks with some training in computer science to help with modeling and other problems related to their work.

SGI is one possibility, but most folks doing this sort of work are looking at more inexpensive hardware and building clusters of commodity hardware to do their work. Also Apple's Xserves are proving to be quite cost effective and screaming performers for genetics work.

Re:Biochemistry

[Otter]

*If* you have a particularly strong intellectual interest in something like that, go ahead. If, as seems to be the case with the submitter, you're just looking for a little extra sugar for your resume -- no way. There aren't *that* many jobs in scientific programming, anything that doesn't require a PhD is unlikely to require a Masters, and a degree (or even a single class) in biochem requires memorizing several hillion jillion enzymes and their interactions.

(Honestly, with the gene expression studies I'm guessing the parent is talking about, it's usually a pleasant surprise when the scientist in charge bothers to think about what he's doing. The programmer certainly doesn't need to be a biochemist.)

Re:Biochemistry

[jyxent]

I am currently taking my 3rd year of a B.Sc. specializing in Bioinformatics, which sounds pretty close to some of the things you mention. Bioinformatics deals mostly with the compilation and analysis of the raw data that is coming from the many sequencing projects. From the seqences, it is possible to predict protein sequences, similarity of genes between organisms, etc...

I haven't looked around at the job prospects too much, but I hope to get into the research aspect of it some day. Bioinformatics is a relatively new field, and many new developments are made all the time. I think it would be rewarding to take part in the new discoveries of this field.

Re:Biochemistry

[espressojim]

Biochem, molecular bio, biotechnology - there's a whole ream of degrees out there.

I think the particular one would depend on your interests, but the life sciences are a good bet for fun, interesting work. I know I love my job...:)

Re:Biochemistry

[BigWhiteGuy_27]

On the same topic, geology is another area heavily dependent on computing. GIS is a huge industry these days.

Re:Biochemistry

[rulethirty]

I second that! As a matter of fact I am a Biochemistry student picking up some computer science classes on the side. Not because I do not know anything about computers, but because I needed some academic proof that I really do know what I am doing. Screw a degree in computer science. It is nearly worthless unless it has application or another degree accompanying it. I chose Biochemistry for personal reasons but also because of the impending swell of research being done in the world of the organic. Bioinformatics and computational biology are paving the way in what we know about ourselves, other organisms, and fatal illnesses.

I imagine many others will agree that you cannot just sit for a few hours with a computer scientist and explain the inner workings of the cell just well enough for them to be able to tackle a common problem. Problems in this area require great insight and knowledge about their chemical and biological basis. If you can bring to the table some computer skills you will have, as I have been told by many faculty, a secure job for the next century.

Re:Biochemistry

[abradsn]

You'll find that many people in the computer science field are from other fields that are looking for a higher wage. Computer science is where the money is, so that is where smart people end up going, regardless of the degree that they hold.

Re:Biochemistry

[TimboJones]

Of course, you can go straight from Bachelor's to a doctorate program -- you don't have to make the Master's stop along the way.

Re:Biochemistry

[monkeyserver.com]

I was looking into this a little while ago. The big thing that people are REALLY looking for here is some one with a PHD in BIO or MED type field, with CS abilities. I mean, I'm sure you could find something, and I'm sure they really need people who actually know how to properly code, but most of the postings I saw were more shortsided and seemed to want a person who was in their field already, but could hack some code together.

Re:Biochemistry

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed, as a Datamining analyst I have had the opportunity to work with Micro-Array Genetic Analysis for a research project at UCSF. As it turns out, the microbiologist doing the research needed the skills of dataminers and mathematicians for more advanced techniques Peason's Correlation and other simplistic statistical approaches. Generally microbiologist are not expert statisticians, or computer experts.

Persons with skills in computer science, dataminig-statistical techniques, and a knowledge of microbiology, genetics, or other related fields would be extremely valuable in this field.

Re:Biochemistry

[Otter]

Sure, but the last thing the guy asking the original question needs is a doctoral program in biochemistry. On the contrary, if anything I was overly negative in dismissing the possibility of a class or two in biochem or molecular biology, which might actually be a net benefit for him.

Re:Biochemistry

[wronskyMan]

I think you mean geography, unless by GIS you meant something like simulating oil wells (probably a good money maker now anyway)

Re:Biochemistry

[lockefire]

Computational Biology or Systems Biology is the way to go for current people interested in computers but also interested in experimental research. If you haven't heard, this is one of the fields with people in the highest demand. Get paid to go to graduate school for awhile.

Re:Biochemistry

[soren.harward]

I was gonna say the same thing. I'm actually about to graduate with a BS in biochemistry, with an official minor in math and a de facto minor in CS (my school doesn't offer an official minor, but I've got the first 2.5 years of the CS major on my transcript). And next year I'm going into a biophysics PhD program, and planning to carry the computational experience with me.

So this is a great field to go into, provided you're actually interested in it. If all you want to do is increase your salary, then sell out and get an MBA. But if you want to do something really exciting (even if it does entail 5 years of grad school at a salary significantly lower than where you are now) and you're at all interested in biological/chemical sciences, then bioinformatics and systems biology is the way to go. Most large universities now have a program along these lines, and many are keen to bring in CS graduates. You'll have a significant learning curve during your first year getting caught up in molecular biology, cell biology, and biochemistry, but you'll bring an interesting and valuable perspective to the program.

Best thing to pair with a degree in Comp. Sci?

[DataPath]

Experience. Nothing even compares.

Re:Best thing to pair with a degree in Comp. Sci?

[MrPCsGhost]

Hurrah! Without quoting Jane Jacobs or anything like that, I think this quest for accreditation or certification is sad. I recently saw a (what I see as) ridiculous post on the IBM-MAIN listserv, and here is a fragment:

I am planning to do a IBM certification for DB2.

I am not aware of DB2 at all. Presently, I am working on CICS-IDMS combination.

I want to add a feather in the cap by learning DB2. Also, let me know
are there different courses for DBA and Application developer.


I am not aware of DB2 at all. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

I'm venting. I apologize.

Re:Best thing to pair with a degree in Comp. Sci?

[jd]

Oh, definitely. Especially broad experience. Specialists are paid the best but are only needed until the PHB's mood shifts. A generalist gets less to start with, but is needed forever and therefore gains stability and respect. Too generalized, though, and you'll start way too low to get anywhere.

After experience, membership of a professional society (eg: IEEE, or whatever) is better than most certifications, costs less, and is more exclusive.

Certifications are third on the list. They're OK but most people have them and they're not really as good as they're supposed to be. If you do go for a cert, go ONLY for the top ones. The vast majority are just a waste of money.

Re:Best thing to pair with a degree in Comp. Sci?

[DataPath]

Sounds like you're talking about a Marketing degree

Re:Best thing to pair with a degree in Comp. Sci?

[Moonlapse]

what's DB2?

Re:Best thing to pair with a degree in Comp. Sci?

[UID30]

*boggle* You measure experience in resume & personal interview. IMO, degrees by themselves mean little other than a formal cursory knowledge of the subject area. Practical knowledge comes only from experience. Any CS graduate can rattle off the O() value for most generic sorting algorithms, but how many can tell you the best way to code a shared memory cache for basic authentication for a web server that sees 800k hits a day?

I've got a BSCS and wouldn't even consider going back for anything more. I am biased of course ... I am a programmer. If you have a CS degree and don't want to be a programmer, then yes ... choose another degree and move on up the ladder. Try to find something you enjoy ... because unless you're independently wealthy, the chances are you'll be doing it for a while.

Re:Best thing to pair with a degree in Comp. Sci?

[Stonehand]

IBM's flagship database product.

Not that this matters very much; the poster's point was that a bozo was specifically seeking certification in a product that he admitted that he (the bozo) wasn't remotely familiar with, just to add another certification.

Re:Best thing to pair with a degree in Comp. Sci?

[NoneExpected]

I have rarely (actually never) seen a second degree in another field enhance a career. A second degree in an other field is good (in my opin) for switching careers.

Even if you get a MBA, in a sense you are looking to switch careers. I have a low opin of MBA who MBA in fields not of their expertise, I have rarely (actually never seen it work, experience counts!!!). But people hire them. Look at the UTC website they have special programs for MBAs. Go figure.

Actually I like the CPA thing. Every company needs them, and you can open your own shop or work for a company or both! Remember, 99 for you, 1 for me. As I grow old (I'm old gimme gimme!) I realize flexibility is very important.

Re:Best thing to pair with a degree in Comp. Sci?

[spongman]

As someone who's a developer and who's had to scrape through hundreds of resumes and candidates I can honestly say that education (above BSc) counts for zip.

Two of experience working on shipping products with a decent-sized codebase and a wide distribution is probably the most valuable thing you can get early on in a software engineering career.

Depends..

[ackthpt]

What area would you like to employ your Computer Science skillz in? It's actually a great companion degree for Business, Bio-Sciences, Engineering, etc. as it give you greater insight into how you may either create tools to aide your work or be well informed when selecting vendors. This of course assumes you don't just want to be a code or systems jockey.

I find even discussions with a friend in a branch of advertising is hardly served by some of the applications available to him and after an hour talking about what he does and, seeing what he really needs to get through a day, could probably whip together something simple that would do it, rather than the garbage in MS Office he has to wrestle with.

Consider the pros of taking a respectable understanding of technology into a career in law or politics, even.

.. all base of the party of the first part will become property of the party of the second part ..

Re:Depends..

[keytoe]

consider the pros of taking a respectable understanding of technology into a career in law or politics, even.

I'll second that. Right now, I think one of the largest problems with this industry is the lack of people with a clue outside the industry making rules governing it.

Mathematics

[jnapalm]

Most pairable degree with Computer Science: Mathematics. Affinity for math tells employers you're capable of high level, abstract thought.

Re:Mathematics

[Tablizer]

Most pairable degree with Computer Science: Mathematics. Affinity for math tells employers you're capable of high level, abstract thought.

On the flip side it may also say, "This guy has no business and people skills". Get a Communications or Business degree. Raw brains are a cheap commodity on the global market.

Re:Mathematics

[scovetta]

Most pairable degree with Computer Science: Mathematics. Affinity for math tells employers you're capable of high level, abstract thought. I agree-- I've got a dual BS (comp sci/math), and then a masters in comp sci. It's good if you want to stay technical for a while. If you're intent is to manage, you might as well go for an MBA or a communications degree. I've heard from people in similar positions that MBA programs are a joke compared to the hardcore science classes (but I'm sure some /.ers will mod me down for that.

Re:Mathematics

[Buelldozer]

LOL!

Let 'em mod you down.

I have a BSEE and am back in school now for my MBA.

The MBA *is* proving much easier than my "hardcore" EE was.

Technical work is a passion, but I'm tired of being micromanaged by idiots...it's my turn! :-)

Re:Mathematics

[walterbyrd]

I have bachelors in math, business, and computer science; and 25 experience in IT.

From what I've seen, I'd say that math is only useful if you plan to get a Ph.D and be a mathematician. I suppose actuaries do alright, if you like statistics.

Re:Mathematics

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

I'm doing fine writing code with my Mathematics PhD (>$200,000 salary last few years (dropped a bit this year - working on fixing it)). So did Sergey Brin. Most people I know who studied mathematics just forgot it all when they finished their course. Some people (like Brin) have the sense to actually use it to solve difficult problems that non-mathematicians can't solve. Mathematics isn't just for entertainment value, some of it can actually be applied in the real world.

Re:Mathematics

[Coryoth]

On the flip side it may also say, "This guy has no business and people skills". Get a Communications or Business degree. Raw brains are a cheap commodity on the global market.

You can demonstrate communication and people skills when you show up for the interview. A piece of paper saying you have them hardly helps. On the other hand proving that you are adept at abstract and logical thought and a sound grounding in advanced mathematics: Not quite so easy to demonstrate at an interview; you might want a piece of paper for that one.

Really folks, people and communication skills are something you mostly either have or don't. If you aren't much of a people person taking a course in Business isn't going to turn you into one. If you are incapable of actually forming your thoughts into something you can communicate to others - well, maybe you should be taking some remedial English courses.

Jedidiah.

Re:Mathematics

[Coryoth]

I've heard from people in similar positions that MBA programs are a joke compared to the hardcore science classes (but I'm sure some /.ers will mod me down for that).

When I was doing my honours degree in mathematics there was another math honours student who decided to do some Management Science courses. He had never taken any MSci courses prior to that but managed to talk them into letting him try the grad level courses. Despite having never done anything in the subject previously, he found them trivial and got top marks in the classes - his only complaint was the large amount of pure busy work.

It is worth noting that this was a very bright guy. Then again, I would be very very surprised to see a Management/Business student who hadn't taken any undergrad math managing to fare at all well in grad level math courses.

Perhaps that was just the University I was at though...

Jedidiah.

Re:Mathematics

[Spunk]

I am curious - how useful do you find your MS-CS to be? I ask because I'm going to have one soon :)

Re:Mathematics

[KrackHouse]

Driving simulator seeks godless heathens
I figure you're a good fit for an open source project like ours. We're developing an open source driving simulator and we've got some challenging math in the form of tire models etc. that you might find trivial to solve yet hugely beneficial for the OSS movement (entertainment software as a maketing vehicle).

Anyhoo, at your salary you can probably afford to buy the cars we're simulating but we need your brain if you can spare the time.

Re:Mathematics

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

I can't afford the car...have you seen house prices in the SF Bay Area? And I have the cheapest house on the block.

Unfortunately the company lawyers would come down on me like a ton of bricks if I were to work on entertainment software for the simple reason that it's the same area I already work in. (It's curious that one of the biggest consumers of mathematics is in fact the entertainment business. But then a large chunk of it was invented to deal with art - eg. understanding projection onto a plane.) Cool project though, I've just been browsing the source. I'm curious though - have you documented your tire issues anywhere? Are you talking about friction? Or bounce? Or something different?

Re:Mathematics

[scovetta]

Very good. I guess it somewhat depends on where you go. I went to an average undergrad school, and then an ivy league grad school-- and it was like day-and-night (even in the undergrad level classes that I took there). Basically, people either go to college to get a degree (in which case, it doesn't matter where you go), or they go to get their learn-on hardcore. I suppose there are other reasons, but I can't stress enough the difference it made in my life.

Re:Mathematics

[scovetta]

...how useful do you find your MS-CS to be?
Very good.

I obviously skipped out on the English classes.

Re:Mathematics

[CharlesEGrant]

From what I've seen, I'd say that math is only useful if you plan to get a Ph.D and be a mathematician. I suppose actuaries do alright, if you like statistics.

This is too pessimistic. There are positions in bioinformatics and biostatistics that can make good use of people with a background in both math and cs. Statisics is the key subject for these fields too, but you're applying it to biological problems rather then financial ones.

Re:Mathematics

[KrackHouse]

We've got a discussion board and a good discussion about the issues involved here.
We're trying to take advantage of some new papers (pdf) that propose a better tire model than the older Pacejka. Check out the math heavy pdfs here and here.

Re:Mathematics

[Wavicle]

I'm somewhat cynical about the Math/CS pairing. While I think they dance well together, I'm not sure what they tell employers. I'm double majoring in Math and Comp. Sci. with a minor in Statistics, lots of research-oriented programming and stats experience, Magna cum Laude and president of the campus ACM chapter.

Yet the straight Comp. Sci. majors with average marks and no leadership experience are finding it easier to get internships.

The university's career services "mock interviews" assure me it isn't me (my first assumption is that I must be coming off as an asshole or something).

Go figure.

Re:Mathematics

[Tablizer]

If you do have business and people skills, the interview will show that. You don't need to spend 50K and drop two years of your life simply to learn 'people skills'; well at least I don't.

That's the way I used to think, and now I am regretting it.

Re:Mathematics

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

Hey! Thanks for those links. That last one, describing various friction models, is interesting. I'm surprised by how different the various models look but I presume that for some choices of parameters they turn out to be similar to each other. Are you guys actually planning to model the area of contact between the tire and the road?

Re:Mathematics

[KrackHouse]

"Are you guys actually planning to model the area of contact between the tire and the road?"

Eventually yes, we're designing a modular tire dynamics model so you can assign the various tire models to the wheels which should allow us to easily test new ideas and theories. So if the CPU use is too high we can just choose not to use a dynamic Lu Gre not use it until processors get fast enough.

Here's the early idea in code:
Tiremodel* tireModel;
switch(tyreModelSelector){ case PACEJKA: tireModel = new Pacejka(static parameters from xml file);
break;
case LUGRE: tireModel = new LuGre(...);
}
...
wheel.applyForceAtPatch( tireModel.getForce(dynamic parameters) );

Easy

[BoomerSooner]

MBA. You're exactly who it was invented for, not the alreay have a BBA and don't want to get a job types that I see in business school. Or you could go EE which is a good pairing as well, I have friends who did that and have done very well for themselves.

Re:Easy

[R.Caley]

MBA. You're exactly who it was invented for,

What a horrible thing to say to someone you don't know!

Finishing school...

[aquarian]

...where you can learn manners, grooming, and human interaction.

Re:Finishing school...

[Tablizer]

...where you can learn manners, grooming, and human interaction.

Wooops, lost another slashdot reader to the real world

Re:Finishing school...

[aminorex]

Most of my cow-orkers could use a stint in obedience school.

Depends...

[nozomiyume]

I would think it would depend on what parts of CS appeal to you - for example, a degree in Math tends to be a good augmentation to a CS degree if you were going into Data Analysis, or databases. But if you were writing a physics engine, a Physics degree would be useful. Generally, I would say that a Math or Business degree would be a good augmentation.

Re:Depends...

[redrhino]

Um ... I would think that a Statistics degree would be far more helpful if one were going to do data analysis than a Mathematics degree.

Redrhino ... the Statistician

Depends on where you wanna go...

[ABaumann]

You could go with another science degree: Physics, Biology, Chemistry, or Math and work at a national lab.

If you don't actually like programming and you want to be a project lead, go with the MBA.

If you want to go towards hardware development, maybe linguistics would be a good area of study.

Re:Depends on where you wanna go...

[Chundra]

Linguistics for hardware development? I don't see the correlation.

Re:Depends on where you wanna go...

[Anonymous Coward]

And while generally considered a 'soft' science, psychology is great if you have an interest in AI and think that the pure CS approaches are going nowhere fast.

It's all about Niche

[ManeeshBrash]

You need to help define a Niche to market your programming skills. Doing a commerce degree or a Biological sciences degree would help you to get into a more specialized field. You don't need to get this training from a university, a two-year diploma would be enough.

For me . . .

[JJ]

I find an MS is statistics most useful to pair with my info science degree.

Thank Goodness

[DanielMarkham]

This wasn't another one of those posts where you had to read some long article and make comments. This is one of those "Do you like ice cream?" questions.

Go for the business degree, kid. Whatever you do in this world, there will always be a business manager over you (or working for you)

And yes, I do like ice cream.

A Language

[Oen_Seneg]

Not stricly a degree, but learn a real language (French/German/Japanese) and you can actually get some quite interesting jobs. Worst case scenario, you'd be translating software or giving foreign language tech support, but employers quite like people with language skills for some unknown reason.

Re:A Language

[ackthpt]

Not stricly a degree, but learn a real language (French/German/Japanese) and you can actually get some quite interesting jobs. Worst case scenario, you'd be translating software or giving foreign language tech support, but employers quite like people with language skills for some unknown reason.

I said back in the early 80's that Japanese would be an excellent language to learn, due to the great amount of commerce between Japan and the USA. (Note today: Sony picks an american as it's new CEO)

I'd suggest chinese, whichever dialect is prevalent on the mainland for business.

Re:A Language

[Neo-Rio-101]

employers quite like people with language skills for some unknown reason.

They like us because we not only know computer languages, but human languages as well. It shows you also have social skills and the ability to understand people from otherwise completely different ways of thinking. The ability to communicate effectively with other people is important in tricky situations with users, and when working as a sysadmin in a team of engineers as well.

Actually I work in a Japanese research institute which has a lot of foreign researchers, so they need me to make all the bilingual "System maintenance" notice emails.... and to politely deal with foreign researchers when they have problems, and when they've been naughty and tried to use BitTorrent on our network.

Re:A Language

[Oen_Seneg]

Oddly enough, UK universities are cutting back on Japanese/Chineese degrees - Durham closed their entire Oriental department, and Oxford is crushing under the pressure of the majority of "Oriental Studies" candidates wanting to do Egyptology. Thankfully, in the UK we have SOAS which is a specialist Oriental/African studies university in London, which is the best in the country at most of the specialised subjects (Chinese/Japanese and other languages) I'm off to do Japanese there in september for four years, and I'm looking forward to it.

Re:A Language

[PakProtector]

Nien! Iie! Baka! Leib, Mien Leib! You let the damn secret out of the bag! Computer Science ga oshiete kureta ka... ne

Re:A Language

[swanswan]

I second that. A foreign language opens new horizons, especially in the US. Europeans markets are blooming, so is China. International companies are ripe for talented people who speak a foreign language, this is true whatever the diploma you have. Plus all the enlightment you get while learning a new language and the ability to visit new places during business trips.

Re:A Language

[wildjim]

I'd heartily agree with learning a language for slightly different reasons; though programmers logically would probably benefit the most, the advantage is in having to translate concepts into a another form in a way that is less than automatic.

I personally don't think it matters hugely which language, as they *all* have idiosms (sp?) that you have to know how to deal with. e.g I learnt French in college and University, and it was a milestone to understand that certain phrases (some words, too, but that was more obvious) just can't translate properly, and the understanding had so much more to do with understanding the culture, traditions, history, etc than any of the words. I also learnt Maori (New Zealand) for short while, and found it bloody difficult until I stopped trying to translate any words independantly, and just worked with whole phrases.

These other effects on/of language are some of the things that I think are helpful with IC&T in general, partly because there is a strong culture and history there which dictates why some things are the way they are. e.g what does the phrase "religious war" mean to a Techie vs. non-Techie? e.g My wife would like someone to "just write a program" that'll make Hotmail work the way she wants without her having to remember the less-than-intuitive interface idiosyncracies; with her not knowing (or really wanting to know) all the detail that goes into Hotmail, the Internet, Client-Server, etc, etc, it's down to me to explain the relevant concepts in her "language" so she doesn't beat the computer into dust ;-)

As an aside: it seems to me the best programmers out there are those who can pick up real-world languages with some degree of ease.

Re:A Language

[fredu]

And not only learn the language by taking a course studying it for a few years. You never learn to speak in a way that native speakers will understand it even if you study it for 6 years.
I've met Americans who've studied Japanese/French/German for that long and they all speak it as if speaking English, but after a year in Japan/France you can actually tell they've improved a lot.
I'm not French/Japanese/American myself, and I'm not saying Americans have a harder time learning languages (well maybe they do as they're only exposed to one language (ok, maybe mexican spanish as well ;), I just took the americans as an example because most of you reading this will be americans). You probably know what I mean, take the French or Japanese speaking English as an example.
Oh, and my biggest point, you also learn a whole lot else by being abroad for a longer time, not just a langauge!

Re:A Language

[computational super]

Do you just suspect this, or have you actually found it to be true? I ask because my experience has been the opposite. I speak two extra languages (Japanese and Spanish) and even spent a year at a Japanese university... although it increases my circle of friends to be able to converse with people in their native languages, I haven't found this to be even remotely useful in my (programming) career. Both have been on my resume for the last 12 years and have never once even come up throughout lots of job interviews.

Re:A Language

[PakProtector]

Eigen vaterland, eigen leib: NetBSD! Shi! Shi! Sumimasen! Sumimasen! Sumi sumi! *Has a heart attack, dies, falls over, knocks the *BSD box into the bathtub*

Re:A Language

[LilGuy]

I hope that isn't Klingon.. I'd have to take away your time warner cable for the week.

What's your ultimate goal?

[delcielo]

If you're looking at eventually rising through the ranks into management and executive positions, an MBA would be a good idea.

If you want to be a tech for the long haul, perhaps a degree in mathematics.

Whatever you do, remember also that communication skills are important. You're not typically taught them in college (at least not very well); but your advancement will to some degree depend on them.

Re:What's your ultimate goal?

[Geckoman]

I'll second the math suggestion if you want to do tech stuff.

I got my BS in math and my MS in CS. Interestingly, I think I did more hands-on computer work in my upper level math courses than in my CS courses, and more applied math in my CS courses than in my math courses.

Note that many of the great minds in computer science (Turing, Knuth, Kay, etc.) got their starts in mathematics.

Re:What's your ultimate goal?

[bluegreenturtle]

Whatever you do, remember also that communication skills are important. You're not typically taught them in college (at least not very well); but your advancement will to some degree depend on them.

In my experience, in multiple industries, including entertainment (tv/film), music, government, legal, planning and IT, communication skills are more important than any other skill.

If only more CS types understood this they might keep their jobs longer or have an easier time getting them in the first place. Instead many are arrogant, poorly organized, smell bad, have poor table manners, rude or are just inarticulate. Somebody who does *not* have any of those traits will beat out somebody who *has* any of those traits almost every time.

I don't care if you can build 4 computers from scratch simultaneously with each of your limbs and write tight code with your nose at the same time (well, I might pay to see that once) if you're rude or make me gag to stand too close to you, you're gone.

Just a thought...

[gUmbi]

Why not go for your MCSE? *ducks*

Art...?

[RootsLINUX]

Well if programming is what you love and what you want to do for the rest of your life, why not focus on getting a degree in artwork? Sure we can all write hard-core programs and scripts that run from a command line, but what about our less-enlightened users who require a GUI and colorful buttons to do anything with their computer? To those users, appearance is VERY important, maybe even moreso than performance to some people. I wish I had time to focus on developing my art skills right now for personal reasons/projects, but I'm too busy writing esoteric Perl scripts...>_>

Re:Art...?

[mrchaotica]

Ack! No, GUIs don't require an art degree! GUIs require a psycology degree. Art skill could help, but it's a lesser concern.

Re:Art...?

[Kiryat Malachi]

Not psychology, either.

If you're going to do GUI design, probably the two best things to study are ergonomics and industrial design. One tells you how to make a good interface, and the other tells you how to make it look good.

Re:Art...?

[mrchaotica]

Isn't ergonomics a subtopic of psychology?

Re:Art...?

[tverbeek]

Getting warmer... :)

Industrial Design is a good answer, but for the wrong reason. ID isn't about how to make something look good; it is interface design. An industrial designer is a GUI designer who works in 3D, with some structural engineering thrown in. Graphic Design programs these days (except Print Media concentrations, which are more akin to Illustration or Fine Art) are also about GUI design, because the media they're dealing wiht are becoming increasingly interactive as well as visual. And yes, there's a substantial swath of Psych going through them.

"Art" is a very broad subject, even if you confine it to the visual arts. (I've got a whole college with a dozen different majors in "art" surrounding me at the moment.) Studies in Illustration, Painting, Sculpture, Photography, Interior Design, Digital Media, etc. aren't going to apply very much directly to one's work in the field of Comp Sci. (However a background in Comp Sci can apply pretty well to most of them.) Graphic Design and Industrial Design are the two that will give you the most new skills to bring back to Geeksville.

Re:Art...?

[EEBaum]

Hear hear! As someone who's implemented user interfaces that only the art department has had input on, I wholeheartedly agree.

Re:Art...?

[Kiryat Malachi]

Having seen the courseload for a psych student, taking a general psych major is *not* going to do very well at preparing you for doing UI design.

Re:Art...?

[Kiryat Malachi]

ID is all about how to make something look good, while remaining functional. I leave it to graphic designers to remove all utility from their products. ;)

But the ID curricula I've been exposed to remain more about coating reasonable functionality with form, rather than about the absolute maximization of functionality which I associate with ergonomics. Either curriculum will help significantly in UI design, though, and both of them will give huge benefits. Graphic design I'm less sold on as helping in UI, but mostly because my university really aimed it more at print/non-interactive media; this was partly because we had a specific degree for interactive media/technology art studies, and partly because the profs for graphic design were older, and were most experienced with flat media.

Law

[ajakk]

With a Comp Sci. degree and a Law degree, you can become a patent lawyer and make tons of cash (and be a pariah among nerds).

Re:Law

[ajakk]

I think that "very few" is a stretch. They accept all Computer Science degrees that are accreditted by ABET/CSAC

Re:Law

[Ohreally_factor]

I was going to suggest the same but not for the financial reasons, which are fairly obvious.

We need more lawyers. Let me modify that. We need more lawyers on our side.

Besides the altruistic part, you might also find The Law to be interesting from a Comp Sci POV. In a very abstract sense, The Law is like computer code that governs our society. It's our OS. And case law is like the libraries that a sub program (the courts) might call, since it is undesirable to reinvent the wheel for each case.

Tangent: It's funny how someone who programs in one language wouldn't advise someone programming in a language they didn't know (other than to advise them to switch to their favorite language), yet when they are completely ignorant of the law they feel free to give opinions on matters on which they are completely ignorant.

Even if you don't end up practicing law, a degree in law could be invaluable to whatever field in which you finally settle.

Re:Law

[Macadamizer]

"This is bullshit. First off, you don't need to pass the patent bar to be considered a patent attorney."

You need to have passed the patent bar in order to hold yourself out as a "patent attorney." You don't need to have passed the patent bar to litigate patent infringement case, or to even write and prosecute patents (as long as you are work under the direction of someone who HAS passed the patent bar), but you can't use the title "patent attorney" unless you have both been admitted to a state bar in any state AND have been admitted to the patent bar.

Re:Law

[kidthor]

I like your comparison of law and CS, that's an interesting way to think abou tit! Though I don't disagree that a degree in law could be useful later on in someone's career, I don't think it's a very efficient or cost-effective use of one's time if they have an different non-legal ultimate goal.

Re:Law

[Ohreally_factor]

depends on the goal, although you're mostly right. If one is aiming at the top of the corporate ladder, a law degree might be as valuable (or even more valuable) than a MBA.

In todays market....

[FunOne]

A language degree, specifically: Hindi

MARKETING!!!

[gonar]

then you'd be EVERY engineer's worst nightmare, a marketroid with an engineering degree but no engineering experience!

seriously. work in the industry for 5 years, then go back to school, experience is more valuable than any piece of paper.

Re:MARKETING!!!

[Sebastopol]

It is very hard to leave after 5 years in the industry. By that point you're in your late 20's (assumption), and you've started to settle a bit. Jumping out of a high-paying job to go back to school is a very difficult choice to make once you've left school.

Re:MARKETING!!!

[tgrigsby]

That has got to the worst advice you can give someone. I graduated, got my business computers degree with the intention of someday going back and getting that MBA. Dang, I wish I'd followed up. Now I'm stuck with a mortgage, 3 kids, and demanding wife, and NO TIME to get what would have been relatively easy to pick up back then. Do NOT lose the momentum you've got now. Go immediately after an MBA. I've told my kids a million times (although I think I may have to keep working on my five year old) that they can get a degree in whatever interests them, but they must also get a degree in business. Period, end of story. Want to maximize your potential in any field? Understand the way that field makes money. 99% of that is going to be standard business practice.

Re:MARKETING!!!

[paitre]

Depends on the circumstances.
If your downsized out of a position, that's usually a decent time to take the plunge back into school :)
General frustration with current emply, etc are also cited reasons for dropping out of the workforce and back into school (either to finish the BA/BS or to get an advanced degree).

I'm in my late 20's, have 6ish years of pro experience under my belt, I'm closing in on 6-figures, and I'd -KILL- to be able to afford to go back to school (Culinary School, to be specific - I -miss- cooking in a professional setting, or Law School - all about the Benjamins). But, like Sebastopol says - at this point I'm pretty much stuck because I I'm 1. in a really cool position with a killer employer, and 2. I gots bills to pay (2x car payments, mortgage, daycare (2kids), etc).

Doh!

Re:MARKETING!!!

[mttlg]

seriously. work in the industry for 5 years, then go back to school, experience is more valuable than any piece of paper.

Why not do both? My perspective may be a bit different, being an EE and not a CS, but you can get plenty of good experience in the year or two it takes to get a Master's degree. Having the Master's will usually give you a decent boost in starting salary, and considering that a Master's degree doesn't cost anything more than time and effort (you're doing something wrong if you have to pay any of your own money), it can be a good intermediate step between school and work.

If you're not sure of exactly what you want to do, or if you want some low-risk "real world experience" (complete with never-ending meetings, schedule slips, funding cuts, and other things that go horribly wrong outside your control), a Master's degree makes perfect sense. My Master's degree gave me a nice piece of paper and plenty of good stories that made me look good on paper and in person, giving me my pick of jobs (to the point where my last interview was little more than a trivial formality and a getting to know each other exercise).

Of course, if none of the job listings the original poster has seen have required or preferred a Master's degree, then it might not matter. Maybe CS is different, but in my first EE class, the professor told us that we would get a Master's degree, sooner or later. Where I work, it is practically required to have a Master's degree (or at least be working toward one) for advancement.

On the subject of what degree to get, that is really a personal matter. Pick something that interests you and has thesis opportunities that are similar to the work you eventually want to do (if you're not working full-time, skip any non-thesis options you find; your thesis and any other research is what makes the degree more than just a piece of paper). Don't just get a degree to use as a line on your resume - if you don't have a use for a degree, you could find yourself overqualified for the job you really want.

And whatever you do, make sure you take any opportunities for writing papers and giving presentations. These skills may not be required in whatever job you choose, but they will help you to stand out (which helps a lot when it comes to raises and promotions).

Re:MARKETING!!!

[tverbeek]

If your downsized out of a position, that's usually a decent time to take the plunge back into school :)

It's also a good strategy if you get fired. If you immediately try to get a new job, you'll inevitably be asked why you already left the last one, and you'll either have to tell them, or lie to them (which is worse, because they probably won't believe you, and it's grounds for termination if they find out later). If you instead go back to school, prospective employers may just figure you wanted to go back to school, and not ask, or you can pre-emptively explain "I decided to go back to school" which neatly deflects the question of what your other option was (i.e. begging for crappy jobs).

Someone very, very close to me did this when he got canned* in his early 30's, and it worked out fairly well. All it took was a decent part-time gig (and some savings) to pay the basics of life for a few years, financial aid to pay for school (which is easy to get if you make only enough to pay the basics of life), and the enthusiasm to do it. Presto: one resumé, neatly laundered, with a shiny new degree added on.

*Did you know that religious institutions can legally practise religious discrimination?

Re:MARKETING!!!

[tverbeek]

I graduated... with the intention of someday going back and getting that MBA. Dang, I wish I'd followed up. .... I've told my kids... that they can get a degree in whatever interests them, but they must also get a degree in business.

You sound a bit like the guy who didn't make the football team, insisting that his boy train harder than he did... whether the kid likes the game or not. And maybe he'd rather be experimenting with his Li'l Perfesser chemistry set.

Your kids are different people from you. Don't make them miserable by forcing them to compensate for your regrets. Give them advice, but let them make their own choices based on their own priorities, and develop their own regrets from their own mistakes (because they will have some regrets, either way).

Which would you rather risk hearing 25 years from now: "Dad, you were right: I should've gotten an MBA," (from a kid who didn't do what you advised) or "Dad, you were wrong: business school was a waste of what could have been my most productive years as a ______," (from a kid who did what you insisted)?

Re:MARKETING!!!

[tgrigsby]

Which would you rather risk hearing 25 years from now: "Dad, you were right: I should've gotten an MBA," (from a kid who didn't do what you advised) or "Dad, you were wrong: business school was a waste of what could have been my most productive years as a ______," (from a kid who did what you insisted)?

I wouldn't be surprised if I heard, "Dad, I'm doing what I wanted in life, and the MBA didn't figure in at all, but I certainly have a good understanding of how businesses operate." And that would be ok, too. I never expect to hear your second option, ever. I'm not going to force my kids to do anything but get a well-rounded education, and by force I mean with my checkbook. What they do with the education is their choice.

Indeed

[dsginter]

Carly had a Bachelors in medieval history but was able to become the CEO of a once impressive company because of her MBA. Not that she was any good at it but she did get a hefty severance package.

Re:Indeed

[syousef]

Personally I have been on enough interviews to know that you can put anything down on your resume. ...and be laughed out of the room at your first interview. Most employers worth their salt will give some form of technical interview. For my current job I sat a 3 hour exam before I got to the second interview. It wasn't about getting everything right either, but proving that I could understand and process the questions.

Sure you don't actually need the degree but for some of the questions I answered mine sure came in handy.

Re:Indeed

[grazzy]

Have you tried dropping that attitude in a interview.. once?

Re:Indeed

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because more people fail in a position for personality reasons than for technical ones.

Team players with good communications skills may not succeed, but good programmers who aren't team players and can't communicate won't succeed either.

Re:Indeed

[twiddlingbits]

You mean those who hired you didn't check references to make sure you were not BSing? Shame on them. I would ask you a LOT of technical questions and some others as well. Team skills are important after all I don't want to be playing referee when you piss off your team mates and they want to strangle you! I've been around long enough to have a pretty good BS meter, looks to me like you would peg it!

Re:Indeed

[AmigaAvenger]

i just spent a couple months on an interview committee for a MS systems admin. we had one saying, skills can be taught, soft skills can't. If you give a good interview and conduct yourself well, demonstrating excellent intrapersonal skills, it will go a LONG ways to cover any inadequicies in your computer skills.

Re:Indeed

[hdparm]

I doubt she'd ever get a job there if things at HP were not screwed already. On the other hand, she and companies of that size and importance are special - too much politics is involved, so it's possible that good political ties would have landed her a job anyway.

Back to 'Ask Slashdot' question - I believe that first and foremost one has to figure out in what other fields is he really interested. Having a degree for the sake of having it does not do any good to anybody - CS major with MBA but without any interest in business or the company that hired such a candidate.

I also believe that, contrary to popular opinion, MBA is too broad and too general to be very useful in day-to-day struggles of making the money. I'd rather go for a specialist accounting diploma (tax, procurement/assets, financials...). Then again, only if I had a real interest in business operations.

Re:Indeed

[provolt]

You can generally teach people to become acceptable coders. You generally can't teach people communication skills.

A project team with a dozen acceptable coders who can communicate well will outperform a project with a dozen brilliant coders who can't communicate and can't work in teams.

Re:Indeed

[provolt]

I would absolutely agree with the need for balance. However, I think finding someone with acceptable coding skills is an easier task than finding someone with acceptable communication skills.

Re:Indeed

[brianosaurus]

I think a broad and general business degree makes an excellent complement to a specialized engineering degree, particularly if you want to remain on the more technical side of the business. A broad education is also a good way to get a feel for which aspects of the business side (tax, financials, etc.) interest you, if any. If they don't, you still have a wealth of knowledge and skills that aren't taught in most engineering programs. You'll be able to communicate with the business-types in their own language.

If it turns out that taxes or asset management really turn your crank, you can always get another degree later, and pursue that route on the job in the meantime.

Re:Indeed

[computational super]

Had I known my CS degree would be this useless I would have never even gone to college

Actually, it's worse than useless... now that you fully understand the theory behind good coding/software engineering/algorithmic principles, you have to deal with people who say, "we don't have time to do it 'right', so let's just get it done as fast as we can and do it 'right' in phase II." The word right is always spoken in quotes (and sometimes even accompanied with air quotes) and always a codeword for "wasting time". And then, of course, you'll also deal with people (they seem to congregate on slashdot sometimes) who assume that they can learn in 21 days what you spent four years studying. "Sure, he might be able to optimize a few more CPU cycles out of it, but with CPUs being as fast as they are, what does optimization matter"? Sigh... your (and my) CS degree were actually an inverted waste of time.

Re:Indeed

[hdparm]

I appreciate what you're saying. What I question is the relevance of going through all the trouble acquiring 'general knowledge' in a form of advanced university degree in this case. That thing is not cheap, either.

Re:Indeed

[NFNNMIDATA]

That's hilarious. It's true that people skills can't be taught, but neither can intelligence; you can send Dumb Friendly Charlie to all the classes in the world and get him all the certs in the world, but he will still try the wrong strategy first on most problems because he is not cut out for brain work. But at least he smiles at you while he's getting nothing done!

Re:Indeed

[kathwelyn]

Do you think they hire women to executive positions to fill some sort of quota? If they did, wouldn't they have more of them in those sorts of positions? I mean, seriously, think how good she had to be just to be in the running for a position like that. I don't know how you can say she wasn't very good at it. In business these shifts happen all the time, regardless of the skill of the ascendant or exile. And if you'll remember, HP stock went up when she joined, just as it went up when she left. I really don't know how you can say she wasn't any good at it.

Re:Indeed

[Glonoinha]

This the smartest shit I have read all day.

Had to interview someone (a contractor position, six weeks) to code Java and my boss asks 'do you want a guy that can do SQL, or a guy that can do Unix?'
I said 'I want a guy that speaks English.'

Unfortunately, that wasn't one of the options.
Almost had to stab that fucker today after telling him the fifth time that the middle finger isn't for pointing or enumerating, it is for expressing 'fuck you'.
He just likes waving that middle finger around, and I guess in a way having him in the office is a big 'fuck you' to all the American programmers that are jobless today. Shit.

Re:Indeed

[sanshovel]

Carly held more than a bachelor's degree in medieval history. She has a bachelor's degree in medieval history and philosophy, an MBA, and a masters in science. Not to stick up for her...but the facts need to be straight.

Re:Indeed

[Sproggit]

Bullshit
I test software for a living (Performance testing large financial engines mostly) and a room full of mediocre coders will put out a thousand lines of mediocre code, while a single brilliant coder will produce 100 lines of brilliant code that performs the same function. The code will also be simpler to test - analyse and tune to phenomenal performance.

Getting the bastard to comment his code properly... THAT'S the trick.

Development by committee, much like management by committee is a way to make sure you stay average.

Re:Indeed

[syousef]

Huh? I've just said I had a 3 hour interview with coding questions, and last I checked Senior Systems Officer was an IT job.

Psychology.

[k96822]

Psychology. Don't laugh, my Psychology minor has been extremely useful, particularly the classes that dealt with cognitive Psychology, which is directly applicable to human-computer interfaces. I intend to turn that into a full Bachelor's someday.

Re:Psychology.

[ackthpt]

Psychology. Don't laugh, my Psychology minor has been extremely useful, particularly the classes that dealt with cognitive Psychology, which is directly applicable to human-computer interfaces. I intend to turn that into a full Bachelor's someday.

I dig. Also helpful in figuring out how to deal with problems with people.

I was a camp counselor once and found drawing on my psych studies of considerable value in figuring out how to direct a bunch of 12-13 year old kids. Within a couple days everything was peachy. Without that knowledge I'd have probably quit long before the three weeks of camp were up.

Re:Psychology.

[Dan-DAFC]

Psychology can also be useful if you're into AI. Bioinformatics is another possibility.

I did BSc(Hons) computer science, worked for four years and then went to Australia to do my masters. I did computer science again but just did stuff that interested me (evolutionary computation, neural nets, etc) rather than what would get me a job ("enterprise" stuff). The whole being in another country and not thinking about my career was great. When I went back to work I was refreshed and had a new perspective on things.

Earning shitloads of money is great, but not if you're miserable doing it, so pick something you will enjoy.

Re:Psychology.

[k96822]

Great point! Success in today's IT world is increasingly dependent on one's ability to communicate as well. IT guys are no longer allowed to be the off-kilter nasty little geeks who sit in their cubes 8 hours a day while smirking at everybody that goes by because they think they're smarter than everybody else. They have to interact and have a balanced world-view and healthy understanding of personality types. They need to communicate with customers to learn their needs directly. Although I can't say my Psychology degree helped all that much (it was too technical about it), the communication courses I took out of school sure did, and those courses are often part of Psychology programs as well.

Re:Psychology.

[Baby Duck]

I have a BSc in Comp Sci and a minor in Psychology as well. Georgia Tech has a Human Computer Interaction Master's Program.

Techniques a lot of corporations use to make its workforce more efficient come from Applied Psychology, aka Industrial Psychology.

Re:Psychology.

[Homburg]

Hasn't Seth Nickel (interaction designer as Redhat) studied psychology? I seem to remember a lot of his best UI ideas come from applying psychological (or occassionaly sociological) analyses?

Re:Psychology.

[speedc0re]

Yes. I agree. I did some psychology classes during my B.CompSci. and found that it has helped me alot with GUI design. And that is the main type of software that I create in my job. Knowing how the human brain works helps you to create user friendly interfaces.

Re:Psychology.

[Madcapjack]

Yes, and I'm not laughing. Cognitive Science is also another go, especially if you're into AI, or into human-computer interface, as the k96822 says.

Me, personally, I have a BA in Anthropology, and I'm working on a MS-CS. Hope employers dig me. I hope. Cause CS is no picnic, and I'm losing my hair (what's left of it, anyway).

Re:Psychology.

[k96822]

So, THAT'S where my hair went!

Depends on what you're into

[Starji]

If you're into management, go for a buisness degree of some sort. If you want to work with hardware some, go for computer engineering. If you're looking at interface/graphics design, maybe an art degree. It really depends on what sort of projects you want to work on. If you're just in it for the money, the buisness degree is probably your best bet.

I agree.

[Raven42rac]

MBA, all the way.

Depends on what you want to do.

[tubbtubb]

If you want to do project management, etc, get an MBA.
You may also want to get a second bachelors in another field that interests you.
Consider ASIC design -- much of the coming problems at smaller technologies (sub 65nm) will be with the software tools we use. Software engineers with good chip design/methodology understanding will be in high demand.

seriously

[MagicM]

1) Get a degree in a field that interests you.

2) Don't Get a degree to increase your "marketability", unless it increases your "marketability" in a field that you would want a job in. In which case, see (1).

Re:seriously

[Joe the Lesser]

I agree. Stop powergaming your career. Study what you like, and let opportunities come to you. If you're serious and professional minded, someone will find you whatever path you choose, and if you want the highest salary, then you won't be happy regardless.

Re:seriously

[CortoMaltese]

Couldn't agree more. IMHO, whatever you do, you'll do better and you'll be happier if you do as suggested in parent.

And which is more "marketable", knowing a bunch of stuff and being good at it, or both of those and being enthusiastic about it as well?

Re:seriously

[nine-times]

This is by far the best answer in this thread. Perhaps it's the only good answer I've read. I've talked to a couple 19 year olds recently who've asked me what they should major in if they want to get a good job. Like there's a "right answer". Kids starting out always want to know how to get "a good job"-- just abstractly, "a good job". As in, you take specific classes, get "a good job", and live happily ever after.

If you're thinking about going back to school, just look into a lot of different subjects, and when you find something that you're really interested in, and the idea of taking classes on that subject is sort of exciting, take some classes in that.

If your real concern is that you're looking for is a token degree to give your resume a superficial bump, than it sounds like the job you're well-suited for is that of a PHB, in which case go ahead and get your MBA. You'll learn all the market-speak necessary to synergize best-business-practices in order to get the greatest possible ROI.

Otherwise, take some interesting classes and see where it leads you.

Re:seriously

[syousef]

Get a degree in a field that interests you.

These are golden words my friend. Particularly, if you're planning to work full time while doing the degree. You're going to be doing some of your degree work in the small hours of the morning, and giving up things to do it. If you don't absolutely love the field you've chosen to study you're in for literally years of hell.

After my B.Sc. Comp Sci, I did a Masters of Astronomy online. I started off loving the degree but for various reasons it was hell to complete (but I did it!). I still love astronomy, but I'm not likely to do another degree any time soon.

Re:seriously

[bezeee]

I'll echo some of the other responses here, this is the best answer in this thread.

I've gone from a BS in engineering to a BS in Comp Sci. Now I'm heading for an MS is Comp Sci not because it will make me more marketable (although I think it can provide more opportunities), but because I truly enjoy it and am having a great time studying.

Do what is fun and the rest will fall into place.

My general formula for my students is "Follow your bliss." Find where it is, and don't be afraid to follow it.
--Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth, pp. 120, 149

Re:seriously

[VeneficusAcerbus]

Please don't throw all the terms you may not like together like that. While "synergize" is certainly bull, terms like ROI have a very real and a very important meaning.

Re:seriously

[plover]

No kidding. I took a minor in History (of all the useless degrees, it ranks right up there with the least of them) for the simple reason that I love reading and studying history. It certainly hasn't held me back from anything I've wanted to do. It was simply for fun.

I am, however, seriously looking at going back to school for a masters in Software Engineering. A BS in CSci from 1986 seems about as relevant to today's programming as a mechanic learning to fix Chevy Chevettes. Both software development and cars have evolved a long way since then.

The two things I'd recommend are:

• #1. Don't stop learning. Even if you end up in a programming job where it's a highly specialized environment that seems to have no room for new procedures and practices (or a firmly entrenched staff who sees no reason to change,) keep current on your own. Subscribe to trade magazines (most are free for corporate developers,) attend training classes, browse the bookshelves at Barney Snowball, hit the web for free training, find free seminars (if you're into .NET Microsoft offers a ton of MSDN events for developers, check their web page for showtimes near you.)
• #2. Take a job you like. I really pity people who get up in the morning and say "god, I hate my job, but it pays the bills." Life is way to short to hate 50% of it. If you can, hold out for an exciting or interesting job with a company you respect. If you can't hold out, well, you'll have to take it but keep your eyes open.

Re:seriously

[Peganthyrus]

What he said.

I was going to suggest "literature" or "art" or something like that: something not technical, something that will expose you to ways of thinking where there is not One True Way to solve a problem, something soft and squishy.

Because life's pretty boring when everything in it's an engineering problem, including other people. Get yourself some abstract knowlege that's useless, but fun.

Re:seriously

[Tim12s]

Take the above advice seriously.

If you are undecided, get a couple of professional qualifications. (Sun Certifications + MCSD + etc)

Once you've finished, go for an MBA if you're keen and committed.

Re:seriously

[binarytoaster]

I think that "powergaming your career" is quite possibly the best phrase I have seen in this entire article. I plan on using this in the future. It's great.

Re:seriously

[R.Caley]

ISTM that there is a contradiction in the original question. He (there is an assumption!) can either further his education or increase his marketability.

Taking a degree in history or philosophy would od wonders for the education bit, but not much for the marketability. Getting some real world experience would increase marketability to people who actually want work done, but just plough the same educational furrow a little further. Getting an MBA would increase marketability to HR and associated types without giving any noticable increase in education or actual usefulness to an employer, but may be the best bet for purely improving expected income.

For me one choice

[The Mutant]

A Masters degree in Quantitative Finance.

YMMV. Pick a degree that compliments what you are interested in. Not what the consensus on /. suggests.

After all, you're gonna be the one stuck with the job that it leads you to. The degree could be a marketing MBA, or in Biochemistry or Astronomy, etc, etc.

But you've gotta be happy with it.

Re:For me one choice

[flynt]

Could I ask where you go to school? I'm applying right now for a MQF degree at various places, and I'm interested in your experiences. I come from a Math/Stat background.

Re:For me one choice

[mike77]

After all, you're gonna be the one stuck with the job that it leads you to.

I gotta back this one up. Get another degree in what you're interested in, cuz you very well could be stuck with it.

In my case that was the reality. I got a degree in Physics and Mechanical Engineering. When I applied for Mech E. Degrees I got shot down right and left because they looked at my bresume and said this guy is overqualified, or thatI was not really interested in what they do. It was one of the rare cases where a dual degree can hurt you. Now I do IT. funny how that works!

Bottom line, pick what you're most interested in using your skillset of Comp Sci in. Think of CS as a means to an end, not an end in iteself and you will do yourself a favor in the long run.

Another thought, if you don't know what you want to do, get several minors. one in math, statistics, EE, Bio, Physics, Astronomy, Business. If you know the basics, you can learn the rest on the job. Plus, it won't nail you down.

Stupid question

[Anonymous Coward]

You should never need to ask someone else what degree to pursue. Do what YOU WANT TO DO. Not what someone tells you will "fit nicely" with the degree you already have.

If you're going to college to get a degree simply to have the piece of paper to show your boss, you're going for the wrong reason. Pick something else to do.

If you can't decide on a field of study, you probably don't belong there.

to get a job?!

[BHAX]

Get A BS in Gluteus Maximus Manipulation...

Re:to get a job?!

[pianoman113]

I believe that should be Mandibular Gluteus Maximus Manipulation.

An MBA degree

[soul_on_fire2001]

Undoubtedly an MBA degree, even if it costs a fortune, regardless of your joining the software industry.

If anyone says

[BillsPetMonkey]

get a language qualification, don't bother.

I have a Computing MSc., a business degree from a good University, speak Japanese (JLPT2) and German, I'm 33 and still can't afford to buy a house or raise kids.

Then again I live in the UK, where houses are cramped and expensive.

The weather is awful too, but hey musn't grumble ...

Re:If anyone says

[Oen_Seneg]

Just out of interest - would you have taken a degree in Japanese instead?

Re:If anyone says

[dotwaffle]

And it seems you listen to Terry Wogan on BBC Radio 2 :) Hey, I listened to that on my way to school every morning - it's not just for TOG's :)

Re:If anyone says

[BillsPetMonkey]

Actually, I did!

First degree Business Studies & Japanese dual honours (from the best Uni in the UK for this area - Sheffield). Second degree Computing MSc. German was a hangover from school.

I wouldn't say it was a completely fruitless exercise, but it didn't make me rich either.

Re:If anyone says

[BillsPetMonkey]

I don't live in London. But yes I believe you anyway.

What do you like to do?

[Gil-galad55]

It all depends on where you want to go with your career. If you really enjoy computer science, I'd recommend a maths degree, as this will take you a long way with theoretical computer science. That having been said, a PhD in compsci would probably be even better.

I myself have CS and physics bachelors, but my primary aim is at physics. I found the compsci degree helpful when I was doing work in particle physics, as I was writing tons of analytical code. Also, if you planned on doing development for government labs, an ability to create accurate models is a good thing, and physics will help with that.

Management, obviously MBA. I'd also consider a humanities (particularly English) degree; we always complain about the plight of the illiterate programmer/engineer/scientist. Well-spoken and clear-writing employees look good and go a long way. 3-4 years is a major commitment to polish up your writing, though! That having been said, I find I need the humanities to stay sane, so it's probably time well spent...

Re:What do you like to do?

[FireAtWill]

Great advice with the vital question: "What do you want to do when you grow up?" My brother added an Accounting degree and is a VP at a bank. I wouldn't want to do that so if I doubled up, it would probably be in graphic design and/or marketing. If you want to make (/let) other people do the work, get an MBA. Or, if you like robots & stuff, trying electrical or mechanical engineering.

The key is to answer the first question first. How happy you are doing your job will be a big part of your sucess.

Re:What do you like to do?

[Prien715]

Well said. I hold dual degrees in comp-sci and philosophy (BS and BA) and found the statement "I find I need the humanities to stay sane" to be especially true.

Computers are really a tool. A lot of times, that second (or third) major can give you something to do with this tool.

What you studied

[quizteamer]

The best degree would be something related to what your computer science BA program covered. If you did alot of math, get a masters in math. If the program had a good physics or hardware backround, try getting a masters in physics or some field of engineering. What ever field, make sure it is related and that you have the knowledge to successfully complete the degree. A masters is a good idea cause that usually means a bump in pay, and many companies will help to pay for you getting a higher degree.

Mathematics

[andrewbutts]

In my case, the requirements for the degrees overlapped considerably. I only had to take one extra class to get a double major in Math and CS.

J.D. Patent Lawyer

[darkmeridian]

If you can get into a top ten law school, then you can become a patent lawyer and make a few hundred thousand dollars right out of school. Big firms pay $125K base (not counting bonuses) for patent attorneys from top ten schools--no legal experience (aside from law school) necessary.

Re:J.D. Patent Lawyer

[EZmagz]

That's a big IF, mi amigo. Getting into a top-10 law school is very, very hard. Even top-25 is more selective that most can deal with.

Besides, most CS grads would make horrible lawyers in general for one significant reason: they have horrible communication skills. Lawyers have to be intelligent and very analytical (a trait many with CS degrees have), but also be able to effectively communicate ideas with others (a trait very few CS holders have in my experience).

Keep in mind this is coming from someone who has a CS degree from undergrad, and a few of my friends (and one of my siblings) have attended the top law schools in the US. Let me tell you this, you'd be hard-pressed to find a group of more rabid alphas that people in competitive law schools. And somehow "CS geek" and "rabid alpha male/female" rarely refer to the same person.

Re:J.D. Patent Lawyer

[wmelnick]

To become a patent lawyer, you need a degree in Chemical or Electrical Engineering, not Computer Science.

Re:J.D. Patent Lawyer

[Kensho]

Not necessarily. For example... I qualify with my CS degree because I have taken two semesters of Physics and have a math minor. Check the patent bar reqs.

Re:J.D. Patent Lawyer

[achesloc]

Getting in a top-tier law school isn't really that bad. I just started school this year. I would say though that having an engineering degree EE or CE would be better. Even though you can sit for the PTO exam, many of the jobs I have seen seem to ask specifically for EE or CE.

Re:J.D. Patent Lawyer

[Dread_ed]

Why not just get a law degree, and if you don't get completely corrupted by the whole lawyer indoctrination thing, join the EFF and make a difference.

Want more money?

Work for a law firm helping them understand the implications of the new and interesting laws that are being developed and implimented daily with regard to technology, IT, and net-rights, and then use them to exploit the people for profit of the companies that paid through the nose for said legislation.

OR, if you have a convincing smile and a good speaking voice you could become a politician and help dismantle some of the totally fucked up laws we have that are constraining business and technological progress in our wonderful country.

OR, if you want even more money:

And you have a soul as black as the void between stars I am sure that the business interests that are helped, nay DEPENDENT, on fucked up legislation would be happy to offer you seven or eight figures to help pass their next big monopoly inducing law. (insert step 3 here)

Re:J.D. Patent Lawyer

[tverbeek]

Besides, most CS grads would make horrible lawyers in general for one significant reason: they have horrible communication skills. Lawyers have to be intelligent and very analytical (a trait many with CS degrees have), but also be able to effectively communicate ideas with others (a trait very few CS holders have in my experience).

I can back this up. I have a few lawyers in my family, including my father, so I know pretty well what kind of person succeeds at it. I'm a geek/designer, but just for grins a couple years ago I took the LSAT (cold, no prep) and scored in the 90th percentile, which is good enough for some decent law schools, I gather... but there's no way I'm going, because I also know that I'd be horrible at litigating, negotiating, competing, or just about any other person-to-person aspect of lawyering.

Re:J.D. Patent Lawyer

[deblau]

Except you have to worry about not qualifying for the patent bar. Notice that little asterisk next to the CS major in the latest bulletin? If your school isn't listed, you have to qualify under Category B. Good luck if your school wasn't strong on lab classes in things other than CS.

Depends on what you want to do

[JackL]

There have been several good suggestions already - MBA, biololgy, an advanced degree so you can do research. It really depends on what your goal is. Getting into bioinformatics is quite different than managing an IT department. If you don't have a goal in mind, I would say either 1) don't go back to school or 2) go back and learn what is interesting to you whether it has anything to do with Comp Sci or not.

Re:Depends on what you want to do

[|<amikaze]

Well that's really good to hear :). I was getting really worried because no one had mentioned EE/CS as a good possibility yet, and I'm in my 3rd year.

What do you want to do with your life?

[tbase]

Forget about degrees for a minute, what makes you happy? What do you enjoy doing? What do you think you might enjoy doing for a very long period of time?

While the straight answer of "MBA" is an excellent one, I think you'd do better to figure out what industry and within that industry what specific job you think you might want to get. Then your answer might be more obvious.

If you're really just looking for a way to stay in school longer, then it doesn't really matter. Just stick around until they put you on the payroll, then go for tenure.

A Masters seldom required...

[greg_barton]

...but it's often respected. Having a masters in CS has gotten me selected over other candidates with similar experience many times. It has opened doors.

Re:A Masters seldom required...

[euphline]

Even more, I regularly see jobs requiring masters degrees. These are quite often in niches (like PKI) or at big consulting firms.

Big consulting firms charge extra for folks with degrees...

-jbn

MBA's are good but over-rated

[mackermacker]

MBA's are good, it will give you knowledge of how to invest your money, and open you to new opportunities you can see around you. Like anything, you can do fine on your own (just look at bill gates or warren buffet), no degree is necessary. If you want to work for a large company, rules (MBA required, etc) come into play. All it shows is you stuck with something for a few years, thats pretty much it.

Personally I would go with marketing. That is one of the few professions where you have the ability to make vast amount of money, without anything to show for it. Might as well just send the marketing budget to /dev/null, and if you luck out and have a good year, wait for your bonus.

Oh ya, I'm the marketing manager for SCO

BBa

[ASAPnetworks]

Get a BBa (bach. of bus. admin.)

I'm sure you've noticed in your comp. sci. like jobs that most of the business people know absolutely nothing about technology. you spend more money and time teaching them how to use the technology available then how to do their job.

With a BBA you'll be able to bridge that massive gap and definitely have an edge on everybody else applying to any tech. like job from a business perspective.

So now, you can be the guy telling the code monkey his code sucks instead of being the sucky monkey ;)

Go get some experience.

[nvrrobx]

I'd reccommend getting some experience to increase your marketability as opposed to another degree.

I know when I interview possible engineer candidates, I'm looking more for experience than education.

What are you wanting to do? Your write up was very vague.

What are you interested in?

[Shadow Wrought]

I think the more important question is, what else are you interested in? If all you are looking for is resume padding, then another Bachelor's is a pretty expensive way to go. Indeed you would likely be better off with an MBA (which, based solely on the few MBA's I've met, is little more than resume window dressing anyway).

On the other hand, if there are areas of learning which you really would like to know more about (be it History, Physics, English Lit, etc) then get a degree in that. It will be far more interesting for you and will make you a much more interesting candidate.

But that's just my $.02...

No need for another degree...

[Psiren]

While I respect you for wanting to further your education, I would argue obtaining another degree is the wrong way to do it. It's been said a million times, but there really is absolutely no substitute for experience, and 3 years of it is worth far more than another piece of paper. Knowing the theory, and being able to put it to use in real life situations are two different things. I suspect you already know this as you obtained your degree two years ago, and hopefully have been employed for at least some of that time.

Unless of course you are looking to learn something totally unrelated to Computer Science in order to provide an additional route for employment. If that's the case, only you can make that choice, and asking people here is silly. If you're not interested in the subject, you're highly unlikey to be motivated enough to do the best you can at it.

juris doctorate

[crumbz]

If you think intellectual property is interesting, by all means get a JD. The demand is skyrocketing.

Depends on what you want to doing..

[nite_warrior]

It would depend on what you want to do, in my case I would go for masters/phd since i want to go into academia and research. if you are interested in bussiness or the corporate I guess an mba would be a good option.

Find Something You Like

[SilicaiMan]

Every person is different, so what individual X did may not necessarily fit individual Y.

My advice is to find something you like. You're still young. Take your time and look around and find an area you really really want to pursue and go for it. Don't listen to what others say. If you're happy doing your job, you will excel in it, no matter what the nature of the job is. Only then can you make a difference.

Going for an MBA just for the sake of getting a higher salary is plain stupid, IMHO. Unless you really really want to manage, then don't do it. Else, you will be one among thousands in your shoes. You can't stand out of a crowd unless you believe in and enjoy what you do.

J.D. + Patent Bar

[grolaw]

Might as well shoot for the top - take a law degree (2.5-3 years depending if you take summer classes) + take the Patent Bar and become a Patent Attorney who drafts applications for software patents.

You will be among the 12,000 or so US Patent Attorneys on the planet and, with only a small amount of luck (and a tough hide to make it through law school) you should go far.

If you are really serious about this business then Franklin Pierce law school (an IP first type of law school) should be your target.

This is not a joke....

Re:J.D. + Patent Bar

[brjndr]

You don't need to go to law school to take the patent bar. You can take it and be a patent clerk for a firm.

Re:J.D. + Patent Bar

[jglazer75]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Patent Clerk for a firm! Hilarious.

I know from personal experience that the opportunities for a patent clerk (not a patent attorney) are limited to: 1) examining applications for the USPTO, or 2) working in-house for a LARGE patenting company (3M, etc). Very few law firms are hiring 'patent clerks' - why hire a patent clerk when you can just hire one of the 8 zillion patent attorneys applying for the same position?

A person considering patent work is better off just taking the 3 years of law school, passing the patent bar and their state bar and being a patent attorney - every 'patent clerk' I know has gotten frustrated with the job limitations and gone 'back' to law school to become a patent attorney.

Re:J.D. + Patent Bar

[kidthor]

A law degree ALWAYS takes three years. The American Bar Assn. requires this as a requirement for the accreditation of law schools. Franlin Pierce is indeed a good law school, but of course one should go to the best law school they get into (or at least pick from one from the best range of schools they got into).

Re:J.D. + Patent Bar

[pappy97]

No, you can do it in 2.5. I know plenty of people at plenty of ABA-approved law schools that do it in 2.5.

You still end getting the same amount of units as everyone else (in the 90's range), BUT you finish early because you take summer classes.

Re:J.D. + Patent Bar

[grolaw]

My former law partner graduated in 2.5 by skipping the clerking experience and taking summer classes. He was an EE with an eye towards patent law...

Browse a few law school sites....

Re:J.D. + Patent Bar

[kidthor]

That's pretty weird - maybe the ABA rule can be construed to mean 3 academic years worth of class. I know my school won't let us do that, but apparently that's not the rule everywhere.

Re:J.D. + Patent Bar

[grolaw]

http://www.abanet.org/legaled/standards/chapter3.h tml/
I trust that this makes it perfectly clear... BY ABA/AALS regs.
You can complete the degree in as few as 24 months:

Standard 304. COURSE OF STUDY AND ACADEMIC CALENDAR.

(a) A law school shall have an academic year of not fewer than 130 days on which classes are regularly scheduled in the law school, extending into not fewer than eight calendar months. The law school shall provide adequate time for reading periods, examinations, and breaks, but such time does not count toward the 130-day academic year requirement.

(b) A law school shall require, as a condition for graduation, successful completion of a course of study in residence of not fewer than 58,000 minutes of instruction time, except as otherwise provided. At least 45,000 of these minutes shall be by attendance in regularly scheduled class sessions at the law school.

(c) A law school shall require that the course of study for the J.D. degree be completed no sooner than 24 months and not longer than 84 months after a student has commenced law study at the law school or a law school from which the school has accepted transfer credit.

As the proud owner of three Bachelor degrees...

[stankulp]

...more bachelor degrees means less than nothing.

It means you haven't got the slightest idea what you are doing, unless you happened to earn them simultaneously.

Anything less than a PhD is equally worthless.

If you really must go for another non-Phd degree, the only one the makes any sense is a JD.

Get your piece of the frivlous patent market before it is too late.

Fries

[IanBevan]

Not sure if you can get a degree in this as such, but given the current job market, how about something that teaches you to say "Would you like fries with that ?" in a really professional way.

Re:Fries

[aiabx]

You are thinking of a degree from here: http://www.mcdonalds.com/corp/career/hamburger_uni versity.html
-aiabx

Depends

[Stargoat]

Depends if it is for personal use, or if it is for business. History will teach you to write intelligently, and to think with a broader scope. A second language will prepare you for what could prove to be a more interesting career. An MBA will make you more hireable.

Personally, if you have unlimited time and funds, I recommend a law degree. Fight the good fight against the SCO. What's more, there will be a deluge of criminal computer cases over the next decade. You would be in a perfect situation to take advantage of this.

JD

[theMerovingian]

I'm going to go to law school starting in August. You can work in the field of high-tech law, intellectual property, and patents... I personally am more interested in the software business than I am in writing code, so take that with a grain of salt.

And, you can also diversify into numerous other legal specializations if you get bored or need a change of pace.

The average starting salary varies wildly depending on the type of entity you work for and your geographic location. But, it is my suspicion that you could pretty readily get a decent management job at a software company with 1) technical experience; 2) a BS in CS; and 3) a JD.

There's always the option of going into private practice, or you could work for the FBI/CIA/NSA if you have a penchant for government work (and a clean background).

There's lots more to say on the subject of techno-lawyers, so I'm interested to see what else people have to say Re: law school.

Re:JD

[jkiryako]

I've worked as a software engineer for 15 years. I'm now headed back to law school to become a patent/ip lawyer. It's a great (and lucrative) way to capitalize on your technical background.

Re:JD

[talenos]

I just got accepted to Santa Clara Law school and plan on doing IP stuff because of my Cpr E BS. It's a good option if you don't want to program for a living, but still love to be around the technology.

Re:JD

[KlaatuVN]

I'm considering law school as well. I have a background in Biochemistry/Molecular Biology, and Information Science (not the hard core Comp Sci). I've been working in the technical field for a while as a programmer, a sys admin, and a consultant for both types of jobs.

I'm looking at IP Law or public policy. Columbia and Georgetown have pretty good programs for both from what I hear. I also like the JD/PhD program that Georgetown has. It's 5 years, but who can beat a Dr. Esq.?

--
KVN

Re:JD

[cfulmer]

As a 2d year law student with a long engineering background, I think I have some input here...

(1) Patent lawyers are occasionally referred to as the "Dermatologists of the legal profession" -- they work semi-normal hours and get paid well.

(2) Patent is also hard to branch back out of if you don't like it -- you tend to pigeonhole yourself.

(3) Don't make your decision based on salary -- better to be poor and happy than rich and miserable. Also, while lawyers coming out of the top 12 or so law schools will typically start at $125-135/yr, those salary figures drop dramatically in the next tier. You don't want to rack on a bunch of debt only to find out that you're working more hours but making about what you were before.

I don't think that a JD would give you any help in management -- the only management skill you learn in law school is time management.

On the other hand, lawyers are the grease of the economy -- nothing much happens without them. When things go well, you need lawyers. And, when things go poorly, you need lawyers. Not too many legal jobs being outsourced to Bangalore.

Re:JD

[Chibi]

On the other hand, lawyers are the grease of the economy -- nothing much happens without them. When things go well, you need lawyers. And, when things go poorly, you need lawyers. Not too many legal jobs being outsourced to Bangalore.

I was going to mod you up until I got to the last line of your comment. Legal work is actually starting to get outsourced in this country (the US, since this is a US site, blah, blah...):

http://money.cnn.com/2004/10/14/news/economy/lawye r_outsourcing/?cnn=yes

A number of U.S. companies, including members of the Fortune 500 and some of the country's largest law firms, are now embracing the idea of outsourcing routine legal work to India, South Korea, Australia and other locales with far lower labor costs.

The article mentions that lawyers have more protections for them than the average tech worker (unions, anyone?), but there is still some outsourcing happening in this area. Whether this picks up steam or not, we'll have to wait and see...

Re:JD

[kidthor]

I'm a first year law student and have to agree with all that - especially your last few points. I'm always very amazed at how people think that going into law will make them rich and then happy. Somehow they artificially connect those two things without realizing that to someone who isn't innately interested in law to begin with, going to law school and becoming a lawyer will be a totally obnoxious undertaking. Also, I never agree with people who think that getting a JD is some special/backdoor way of getting to a high-up business position. Law is a pretty tough thing to get out of, and is definitely not any better than just having a BS!

Re:JD

[Przepla]

I concur. I have degree in Physics (engineering), and in Law. And I work as a System Administrator in small software developer company, and as a volunteer prosecutor trainee in local District Attorney's office. (Yes, in Poland we do have such position as a volunteer prosecutor trainee ;-)

Mixing Law with IT (or generally any computer aware job) is a blessing to a person. Computer geeks don't understand law, lawyers don't understand computers. Both communities adore you. Lawyers, because not only you could fix their computers, but also because you actually understands all those computer crimes, how valuable is a computer-based evidence and can operate that horribly complicated legal software. Not to mention, that you are not scared of DA's office IT department folks.

And computer geeks adore you for actually understanding all those EULA's, and occasionally receiving free legal advice.

I mean, in both professions there is serious lack of persons understanding the other one. Many lawyers wish they would understand computers and many IT specialists wish they would understand law.

Re:JD

[DustyShadow]

Well one protection for lawyers is that they have to pass the bar for the state that they work in. I'm not sure if this is the case in every state though. You could work without being a bar member but it'll be very difficult to get hired and I doubt the pay would be very good. I have friends trying to join the Florida Bar and from what I've heard, it's not exactly easy to get admitted. It's not as simple as passing a test. I'm pretty sure that being a US resident is a requirement.

Re:JD

[djplurvert]

Of course, there IS a SERIOUS downside. That is, you are going to be a lawyer.

Re:JD

[theMerovingian]

Thanks for the kind words! I also hope to be able to successfully combine law and programming in order to get a similar sense of satisfaction.

It's probably economically more efficient to pick one profession and stick with it, but for me personally it is more valuable than money to be able to choose from a range of job opportunities.

Re:JD

[Chibi]

From the article:

One immutable obstacle: the guild-like nature of the U.S. legal profession. Government regulations mandate that only lawyers who are licensed in the U.S. can give legal advice on American law. That effectively means India-trained lawyers who are not registered to practice anywhere in the U.S. are severely restricted in the types of legal work they can perform.

There are, of course, ways to get around the limits. General Electric, for instance, has U.S.-licensed lawyers review the legal work its India-based arm produces, an added measure that experts say could be enough to comply with the law.

So, in some ways, it seems similar to what the tech field is going through. A lot of the grunt work gets sent overseas, and then there might be someone here who is responsible for pulling it all together. But obviously with retraining, blah, blah, yadda, yadda, these people can once again become contributing members of our society!

some applied area

[flynt]

I currently am getting a Master's in Statistics (at University of Wisconsin), which is a great degree to complement programming skills. If you can handle the math part of the probability and stats (and it's nowhere near as simple as the undergraduate stuff, so don't kid yourself, if you struggled with calculus, it will take *lots* of work), there are plenty of areas to apply your programming knowledge.

For instance, right now I'm taking a class in decision trees, which has a large overlap with CS ideas. In fact, about half the class aren't stats majors, but CS majors.

If you know stat and CS, there are plenty of new fields you could apply your knowledge, and the two biggest I can think of are biology and finance right now. There are well paid fun positions in both those fields!

In fact, in my inbox right now are open positions for stats people at Intel, Novartus, Pfizer, Merck, to go along with all the other university positions.

So that's my pitch for statistics, check it out, I found my programming background greatly assisted me in almost every class here.

Depends.

[jd]

Masters is essential for any sort of teaching or R&D post. PhD is better, but pricier.

If you're aiming for a management position, an MBA is a good bet, even though there is no evidence that it actually benefits anyone. It looks good, so employers assume it IS good.

Same goes for certifications. A certification is often a process of parroting patterns and educating your guesswork on the multiple choice. In those times I've been involved in the hiring process, I look at how people handle the related but unfamiliar, because that's what they'll face. Nobody, in Real Life(tm), gets a handbook with answers on page 305. Needless to say, nobody has ever asked me to conduct interviews in a long time.

(I also upset a lot of people by asking questions about WHY things were done a certain way. Apparently, the underlying theory is badly neglected in education, because I never did find a person who could answer those questions.)

If you're aiming at the computer consultancy business, an Electrical Engineering degree would be a smart move, because then you could understand both hardware and software sides.

Re:Depends.

[littlerubberfeet]

I would rather be able to discuss the whole "why" thing then demonstrate my ability to regurgitate answers from the back of the exam book...

Underlying theory is gone from American education, becuase we are such a results-driven society. How many times have you heard from a boss or management: "I don't care HOW it gets done, just get it done. Fast. Cheap.", which often results in a crappy job... I am two years out of high school, and I have learned more from working and interning than I did from advanced classes in highschool AND the part-time college classes I have been taking. The nly reason I am going back to school full time is because of the whole marketability issue. Nobody wants to hire someone without the degree, even if the experience and professional credit is there.

Re:Depends.

[jd]

Facts are like bricks - you can build a lot with them, but they don't stand up well without a foundation.

I had a debate with a lecturer once on educational systems. There is a program, "animal", which is a simple identification key system. It asks questions and eventually hits an answer. If the answer is wrong, it adds a question to distinguish what it expected from what it got.

If that program (which is an amazingly trivial, stupid expert system shell) can score a passing grade in a class, then the class has a serious problem. The higher the grade, the less thought of any kind is required, the greater the problem.

(Be very, very disturbed if such a program ever scores a perfect GPA.)

Yes, you have to have bits of paper. I don't know why. It's not as if we're hired as road sweepers, so why is picking up paper part of the deal?

Sadly, it is, so it is important to know the order in which paper is ranked. Masters count highest. Bachellors count next. PhDs can be a liability, because some companies assume you're over-educated (read: you know what is actually going to work) and that you'll demand too much money (read: you'll want to be paid more than health insurance costs).

After the degrees, professional memberships count highly. Human Resources may not know anything, but they do know that it sounds exclusive and prestigious (which it sometimes is). You can't be a professional member of most societies unless you get a certain minimum grade AND in a field related to that society AND on a course that society deems worthy. You don't learn anything by joining, per se, but you DO get access to leading-edge research - depending on the society, this may be before it gets covered elsewhere, so you may be able to get news first.

Certifications are the cheap option. They're also what many people are going for, because they ARE the cheap option. You don't learn anything, you don't get neat journals, you don't get any kind of guarantee that the certification is accredited by anyone reputable, but you (sometimes) get a nice piece of paper you can hang on a wall, or quote from on your resume.

If it is physically possible, I would ALWAYS tell people to go for the professional societies, after they get a degree. You don't (usually) have to work for it, it's usually considered earned by doing well enough on an acceptable course - provided you pay the annual fee.

Some places insist on certifications, and if you're in a geographical location where that's the local fad, then it doesn't hurt to get them, but I'd never consider them anything beyond decoration.

Re:Depends.

[Wavicle]

PhD is better, but pricier.

I don't know about where you go to school, but most Ph.D. students in math/science/engineering in the US get paid to pursue a Ph.D.. Either through a research grant or teaching assistanceship.

Re:Depends.

[Wavicle]

Here's my true-life story on why going through a formal education system has value:

A friend was once tasked with writing the software to control an early CNC machine (basically a metal router on a high precision two-dimensional positioning device). The computer would feed the machine a simple set of instructions: move here, put the bit down, move here, pick the bit up, move here, etc..

The problem was: the more travel the machine had to do, the longer it took to produce a finished product. So one would want to optimize the set of instructions to feed the instrument such that movement was minimized.

What's so hard about that? Well, if you think about it carefully, you'll realize the problem is an undirected graph problem where each point must be visited exactly once. In otherwords, it's homomorphic to the traveling salesman problem. Which means the problem is NP-complete with a time complexity of O(n!) - meaning you would have to consider all possible permutations of cuts to determine the "optimal" one. With a typical part requiring easily 100 cuts, a computer clearly cannot minimize the typical problem before the sun runs out of fuel to burn.

Although there is a lot someone with experience and no formal education can do, the initial problem posed here seemed straight forward and simple, yet hid a deep mathematical complexity underneath. It's important to realize this early on so that you know, with certainty, a true optimization is not practical and some reasonable-but-not-truly-optimal algorithm will have to be used instead.

Unfortunately, some of what you said is true. Most BS-CS degree holders wouldn't recognize a graph problem if their pay raise depended on it. The theoretical basis of computer science has lost emphasis in most university curricula. They prefer things like "Software Engineering" and "Database Design" which, while practical, contain no or at best very little science.

Still, a formal education does have some merit. As the CNC minimization problem shows.

Re:Depends.

[littlerubberfeet]

CNC milling is a cool process. If you want to see a truly amazing CNC machine, look at scaled composites. They now have a 5-axis numerically controlled gantry router. The thing is 50 feet by 20 feet.

Anyway, I agree that a formal education is good for some things. I am pursuing a career in audio engineering. I plan try and take pure science oriented classes and apply them to my work myself, rather then sit through classes that force me to learn DSP technology or applications that will be obsolete in a few years.

English.

[infochuck]

For you, I'd say this is the way to go. You need to get a handle on those apostrophe's.

A Law Degree

[Microsift]

IANAL, but if I were going to invest time in graduate school for the purpose of advancing my career, a law degree would be my first choice. With your CS background, you should be able to Ace the logic and reasoning section on the LSAT.

Communications/PR

[TheGrapeApe]

Or really any degree that shows you can write/communicate well. It might be a good idea to minor in something like that if you can't swing the double major. The biggest fear that most employers have when looking at candidates for positions in IT is ending up with a "Nick Burns - Your Company's Computer Guy" (from Saturday Night Live) sort of character. You can argue as to whether that fear has any basis in fact; but I digress. No one wants to bring someone on staff that makes the workplace more unpleasant for everyone else. Oh, by the way- YOU'RE WELCOME!!!!!!!

linguistics or GIS

[lawpoop]

If you're interested in either of these fields, they will give you an advantage for certain types of work.

With a linguistics background, you will be able to make computers parse and analysis human speech, which will become increasingly important in the future. Think google and search engine capability. This could also lead into AI.

With GIS, you can get a job doing mapping, which is an increasing market for GIS devices, navigations, logistics, and military applications.

Physics (or some sort of electronics)!

[OldManCoyote]

Physics (or some sort of electronics)!

OR It's all about Nietzsche!

[BHAX]

Out of life's school of war: What does not destroy me, makes me stronger. Friedrich Nietzsche, The Twilight of the Idols (1899)

I say go with an A.S. or (better) B.S. in Business

[dubdays]

This really is the way to go for a few reasons:

1. Both are science degrees, so many science/math electives will overlap.
2. From my experience, a Computer Science + Business makes you instantly marketable. TONS of companies need both skills, so when you put them together, companies see one word...leadership.
3. Getting a business degree is NOT DIFFICULT! Hell, it's ultimately based around the concept of making money by being cheap with everything that doesn't directly impact the bottom line and talking louder than the little guy competitor to attract more customers. Pretty simple, really.

If business just isn't your thing, I'd say that math would also be a good choice. It is something you've already been doing for years, and some of the requirements are VERY similar if not IDENTICAL. Hey, it's just one more thing to add to the resume to help distinguish yourself from the rest of the pack.

Um...

[Run4yourlives]

further my education, and increase my marketability

There's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one.

What you need now that you have a degree is experience. That will increase you marketability, another degree will simply increase you debt.

Suck it up and ignore whatever they taught you in university about making the big bucks in the real world. Get yourself in the right jobs.

By "right" I don't mean ideal, I mean jobs that will facillitate you getting that "ideal" job.

Re:um...

[infochuck]

Ok, dipshit. A couple o' things here:

1) Grammar. Not grammer. Got that?

2) Dude. Are you stupid? Is your sarcasm detector broken? Do you need a tag? *My* apostrophes' apposprophe was intentional and funny. Get a clue.

Re:um...

[heinousjay]

...and funny.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Re:um...

[Run4yourlives]

I said grammar nazi, not spelling nazi. :-)

Something Medical...

[All Names Have Been]

Some sort of medical related degree. Seriously. Medical doctor, a Pharm.D., some sort of biochemistry, etc. These types are in ridiculously high demand and the people I know who have this magic combination love what they do.

It's getting to the point that little medical research can be done without loads of computing power, and being able to combine these two skillsets is a *BIG* win.

Hell - I'm thinking of going back to school to finish off a biochem degree or just move on to the Pharm.D.

liberal arts

[baomike]

You could study the one field most CS/tech people ignore, and don't do well in as a rule. Reading and writing. With heavy emphasis on the writing. Tech skills can become obsolete, but critcal thinking and good writing have a long future.

Minor designation

[JamJam]

Somewhat depends what you plan on doing with your CS degree. A heads down programmer needs a slightly different skill set compared to one with a desire to eventually work your way into management.

For the management positions you might want to considering additional studies in Psychology (industrial or personality) and/or Business Management with a focus on accounting (as already mentioned an MBA is considered valuable). Another alternative, instead of a second degree, is to consider getting a minor designation(s).

I'd say: mod parent up!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's exactly what I'm doing right now (a master's degree in embedded systems) and I don't regret it. My parents always told me the contrary: learn something useful because later, you'll be unemployed if you don't. The problem is: jobs requirement change every years and you CAN'T predict what will happen in these one or two years.

Depends

[Registered Coward v2]

First of all - what type of CS degree - was it math / science or was it more engineering?

What do you like to do? More importantly, what would you like to do?

Once you answer those questions, find out what degrees / experience people have and look into getting the same.

An MBA is a good fit, as it lets you move into different directions than a CIS degree alone - it can be the stepping stone to consulting , finance, management (although you'll do little CIS work).

If you do get an MBA, go for a good school - there's the top tier:

Harvard
Chicago
Northwestern
Wharton
MIT
NY U
Columbia
Stanford

a very strong second tier / regional schools (about 25 total),
and then the rest.

Some of the rest are good, other medicore. Look at the employment / salary numbers - some schools have over half their class still unemployed 3 months after graduation.

Businessweek and US News do rankings, as does Ginaicial Times (amongst others). Take them with a grain of salt, but you can see some very definite patterns. While an HBS / Chicago / Northwestern MBA may not be that much better (in pure learning terms) that one from Ohio State or Ga Tech, the 'name' schools will open a lot more doors for you.

Not a Master's

[khendron]

You are right about a Master's.

In all my experience I have yet to meet anybody who feels their Master's degrees helped them in their job.

This includes MBAs, which I find quite surprising. But I have never met an MBA who thinks her or his MBA helped them get and do the job. I do know one person who thinks her MBA helped her find a husband :-)

I have a Master's degree myself. I had a blast getting it. I'd do it again. But for job advancement it is worth less than nothing.

Re:Not a Master's

[DustyShadow]

I'll have to completely disagree with you here. It's pretty difficult to move up the chain at my company if you do not have a master's degree. Almost every single person in management here has a masters or higher degree. But not every place is the same...

Re:Not a Master's

[khendron]

A PhD yes. I agree that there are certain jobs that require a PhD, but not a Master's. I know many people with an MS who are unable to progress because they do not have a PhD. But they are working the same jobs as people with a Bachelor's. So in my experience, a Master's a too high for the job that you will get, but too low for the job you might want. In other words, there is no job level between BSc and a PhD.

Re:Not a Master's

[tverbeek]

It depends profoundly on the job. In some fields that only thing a Master's is good for is if you want to teach it. In others it's an automatic move to the top of the resume pile and/or a $10K salary bump.

Philosophy

[tidewaterblues]

When I graduate from college this Spring (3 months) I will hold a BS in computer science and a BA in philosophy and theology. I will admit that I am a little biased, but in my mind it is an excellence combination. Both of them complement each other very well. Philosophy has trained me to look at problems from the ground up, to be perceptive towards cause and effect, implication, and logical consistancy. Programming has trained me to tackle problems from the top down, through compartmentalization, abstraction, and modeling. Real if you think about it, CS is the science of description. You create interfaces, models, abstraction, and concepts and present them to antoher person as a justified simplification for a higher problem. This is not to far from what philosophy attempts. Plus, philosophy will sharpen your skills as a writer, and that is probably the most important abilty that most programmers lack.

Do you really need a second major?

[Glorfindel]

Maybe another major isn't the answer. I took Math as a second major and it ended up sucking up alot of my free time in college with little benefit in return (in terms of marketability). Now maybe that just means that Math is definitely not a good choice , but I'd say one major is enough. Enjoy your time in college before you have to head out into the real world rather than breaking yourself in a second major. Otherwise, you might just find that you're burnt out on both subjects before you get a chance to apply any of your new found skills in the real world.

If you must take a second major, I'd suggest something to round out a liberal arts education such as History or English. And who knows, the fact that you have a well-rounded education may just give you the edge over others in the job market.

Ooh that why !

[MPHellwig]

Surely explains her medieval management style.

Re:Ooh that why !

[Mr. Bad Example]

> Surely explains her medieval management style.

You mean the development of banking, the invention of the horse collar, and crop rotation?

Re:Ooh that why !

[Zork the Almighty]

Most big companies seem to have crop rotation down to an art.

Re:Ooh that why !

[Surt]

Yes, and since only the horse collar proved to be of any use in running such a modern company, she was relatively unsuccessful.

Re:Ooh that why !

[d_p]

Carly used her education to develop some of the most effective management techniques since the cat o' nine tails.

I read a report a few years ago

[merlin_jim]

That looked into what kind of degrees potential technology employers look for. I forget their methodology but it was basically a statistical analysis of the sort "of all the people with a single degree of x who applied for a position equivalent to y, how many got the job?"

In order they were:
1. MBA
2. Psychology
3. Comp Sci

The report author drew an interesting conclusion which I will paraphrase here and probably butcher horribly:

Most people looking for a job in technology know their profession. In addition, most employers (read: HR departments) are horribly unprepared to judge an employee's fitfullness for a technology position. Given that, potential employers tend to believe that a candidate can do what he says he can do, technically.

An MBA shows that the candidate also understands the business needs driving technology decisions. As this is an area where most businesses get burned when hiring technology professionals, it greatly increases your chances of success.

A psychology degree shows that the candidate has a basic knowledge of how to interact with other people. Again this is an area that technologists are stereotyped as being bad at, and is therefore valuable to a potential employer.

what I hear, and what I advise

[wk633]

I've heard 'accounting', 'business', 'economics'.

I'd say, whatever turns your crank. You've got a piece of paper. Unless you want to teach, getting more paper isn't going to make an appreciable difference. Since you've ruled out an M.S. it sounds like you're not interested in teaching.

So, take things you enjoy, and don't worry about what piece of paper it leads you to. The fact that you're studying something, anything, will have a bigger effect on employers than 'studying XYZ'. If you try to match your studies to the want ads, you'll find that thost want ads could give a shit about courses. They want 2-5 years experience in EXACTLY the area they're employing for.

I have a B.Sc in CSC from '93, and post degree courses in everything from network admin to creative writing. Your local community college is a good place to check out, if you havn't already.

um...

[Run4yourlives]

apostrophes is plural, hence is does not contain one.

(I don't normally become a grammer nazi, but if you're going to point it out, you deserve it.)

Consider industry certs

[GPLDAN]

I would say CCIE for networking, SANS GIAC for security, CISSP for security management.

These are held in the same esteem in the marketplace as graduate degrees or 2nd bachelor's.

Economics or Communication

[tarvo]

It really depends on what direction you wish to take your CompSci. Communication (MBA) is great for those areas of technology which are now global forms of mass media and 'social software'. Whereas Economics is awesome for those areas of technology and software development which are deeply entrenched in a businesses.

I would have thought Economics was obvious, though find that Communications has been invaluable.

Kung-Fu

[TiggertheMad]

Learn Kung-Fu. It lets you fight off agent Smith, and you can avenger your master after he is slain by ninjas. Plus, I have yet to see someon who holds a MBA or Math degree with those cool Shaolin dragon and lion brands on their wrists.

Re:Kung-Fu

[Dogtanian]

Learn Kung-Fu. It lets you fight off agent Smith, and you can avenger your master after he is slain by ninjas. Plus, I have yet to see someon who holds a MBA or Math degree with those cool Shaolin dragon and lion brands on their wrists.

Later that day, TiggertheMad had his lunch money stolen by a gang of bullies.

He was heard to repeatedly utter the phrase "I know Kung-Fu!" as his head was flushed down the toilet.

well it depends...

[lexluther]

I have a b.s. in computer science and had worked for 5 years programming for various (failed) software outfits. Now I am back in school getting a degree in biostatistics. My decision was based on the observation that working at failed startups was less enjoyable than one might imagine. I think your decision should be based on what types of computing you would like to work on in the future. If you want to do sci-computing then you should definitely pick a rigourous field. I cant speak about the relative merits of getting an MBA, but you should ask yourself if you want to take classes in the chosen area (this is a whole lot more important than you might think) Also, I would say that a couple more years at work might not be a bad choice if it helps you better understand what it is you want to do.

Eh

[killermookie]

I have held a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science for about two years now, and I want to further my education, and increase my marketability.

How about a job?

What do you want to be when you grow up?

[winkydink]

That's what you should get a master's in. At this point in your career, I would offer to you that relevant experience in your field is going to do more to increase your marketability much more than a master's.

Re:What do you want to be when you grow up?

[garwil]

I want to be a pirate.

Economics

[Dr. Transparent]

An MBA isn't a *bad* idea, but personally I think that in economics you learn more of the why of general business principles than your mba counterparts.

I would say the biggest caveat is that economics programs really depend on the professors. Spending 1 or 2 years in an econ program with cruddy profs will be rather painful.

The biggest gain with an econ background (or even MBA or the other general business degress people are throwing around here) is that you can make decisions in your programmer box that will positively affect the business as a whole. Too many programmers are idealogues with no sense of why implementing feature X is a bad idea when it will cost Y but only increase sales by Y - $20,000. The ability to make suggestions about how development can better help the business as a whole will make you more valuable, and probably make for a better working environment.

EE, or Patent law

[roadrash608]

1. Get an EE--then you'll know how all this stuff actually works 2. Get a law degree and be a patent lawyer. Good patent lawyers make pretty big $$$.

I am a prime example

[RonUSMC]

Business Management. Hands Down. Thats what I have and it is hands down the best partner in sheepskin.

Biology

[Polyploid Pimp]

I would suggest a master's in some discipline of biology. Bioinformatics is the new buzzword among biology departments. Basically, if you can assist a department's researchers with datamining or creating the archtiecture to handle insane amounts of genome data, then you are set. The one caveat about getting into bioinformatics is to make sure that you actually understand the biological patterns you are dealing with on the computer side of things. Many, many bioinformatics meta-analyses yield results that have been known for many years but are new to the comp sci. crossover people. Also, try to focus your work on a sub-discipline of bioloy. For example, phylogentic theory and evolutionary data analyses have very different assumptions and demands than someone working on modeling neural pathways or signalling cascades. Become proficient in one biological domain to learn the big questions and departments would be willing to give you a look over others with less knowledge (we just went through this last spring with a job search, and I must stress that you need to know the biology!)

Software engineering

[r.jimenezz]

As other posters have observed, experience is valuable. I would advise you to specifically get experience in software engineering issues, most of which you were probably taught poorly at the university, not because of uni's quality but because some of it, IMHO, only becomes apparent after a few years of hands-on, "real" working experience.

Of course, you can also go for a degree proper. I did it (BSc CS, MSc SWE). Just don't expect it will automatically bring with it a bigger paycheck(*). If however you want to try something different and have something to moderate and really make the most out of your "hard" technical skills, while still remaining firmly on technical ground, I can't think of anything better.

(*) In fact don't expect this even if you go the MBA route many have suggested here. Degrees are not magic.

Almost Anything

[jcdenhartog]

I don't have a BS in CS, but I do have a BS in Civil Engineering, along with a minor in CS. To me, it has hilighted the multitude of opportunities to streamline processes in the workplace when you have a knowledge of two fields. I could go on for quite a while about all the ways I have been able to make things more efficient in the workplace simply because of a little programming.

Knowing two different fields allows you to easily identify places where knowledge from both fields can help each other.

I would say IST at PSU

[varmittang]

Information Science and Technology. Its basically business meets technology. You will learn project management techniques, report writing, ROI, cost management, stuff that it takes to be the boss of a CS major.

Don't Bother ... Or Do it for You

[awol]

If you are looking for something to get you a job, you probably have all you need already. In all the resumes I read for the purposes of hiring, the degree is just a qualifier. That it is Comp Sci is a plus but no additional program will improve things much further.

If you are keen on doing education for the sake of education then pick a program that _you_ will enjoy. Once you have jumped the hurdle, motivation is the hardest commodity to find and three years for a degree program (well probably two given one degree already) is a long time to be doing something for which you have little motivation.

Are you a BOFH ?

[Loquillo]

If you are BOFH, then take a break. If not, take an MBA.

CS degree compliment

[dbretton]

McDonald's Crew Training Certificate?

A law conversion...

[advocate_one]

judging by recent events... you'll be wanting to get a head start into the patent suit free for all that's about to kick off...

Electrical engineering or applied math

[SirGarlon]

I work in the defense industry. It has the rare combination of open positions and job security.

Various defense contractors have a big need for people who are good programmers and can understand the math and physics behind complex systems like radar and missile guidance. A master's degree in applied math, electrical engineering, or physics should do the trick.

If you don't mind working for Uncle Sam, are a U.S. citizen, and can get a security clearance (no criminal record, can pass a drug test, decent credit rating), then you too can get a good starting salary, job security, and a chance to work in a room with no windows outside Washington, DC.

Write Right

[cratermoon]

Based on the usual sort of writing I see in /. comments, I'd suggest an English degree.

Re:Three Letters: (I'm glad to see this)

[anjrober]

When I read this question my first response was the same, MBA. However, I assumed the slashdot crowd would be it's usual, tech-obsessed, bunch-of-teenage, know-it-alls, you-don't-need-a-degree-just-linux-experience. I'm glad to see so many agree with the wisdown of this comment. An MBA paired with a technical degree is a great choice. Hopefully this is a sign slashdot is growing up and leaving goatse, natalie portman, and grits behind.

How much do you like IT?

[cmccluskey]

Having completed a Bachelors in IT and 3 years experience, I felt it was the perfect time to go back and do an MSc in IT part time. I didn't do it for any financial reward, in fact has it already cost more than I will probably earn from it. The reason I went back was the same as the reason I went into IT in the first place...I like computers :-) After a couple of years, it is the perfect way to update your knowledge of new research topics that are developing as well as satisfaction in completing your education (PHd's are probably a step too far though).

No way

[hey!]

There's no way somebdoy who has a BSCS and two years of work experience is anywhere near needing to think about an MBA, unless he's figured out he doesn't want to be a computer professional.

Ten years later, that's a different story. At that point you've mastered the technical stuff, and are probably getting into making business decisions.

Bioinformatics

[nyabutid]

Get a degree in Bioinformatics.

Anything but MBA

[mnmn]

The MBA is best had after a few years of working experience. Finding work as a fresh out-of-college BCS is hard enough, one thats overqualified and underexperienced, leading a bunch of technically experienced IT guys will be a hard sell. Work a few years, while working on your certficates.

That said, aiming for niche markets is a good idea, like manufacturing, scientific, accounting, engineering, chemistry even. Dont do political science, history etc, where using both degrees for one job will be difficult.

That's simple.

[Murphy Murph]

You're a nerd, you have the papers to prove it, the empty sex-life to prove it, but you want another degree.
What should it be?
Hmmmm.

Women's Studies.

Learn to succeed where many a nerd before you has failed.

What do you want to do?

[byrd77]

I graduated with a BS in CS, worked for two years and decided I didn't want to code for a living. Went back for an MBA. Played that game for a while and decided I wanted to research and teach - now I'm working on a PhD.

Graduate education is not like undergrad where you're getting a baseline set of skills to be molded by your experience. It is much more targeted and refined to the skills you need for the profession or dicipline you choose - hence the term "master's degree."

Remember, MBA stands for "Master of Business Administration." Think about it...

MS in Human-Computer Interaction (HCI)

[ozziegt]

HCI is a very fast growing field. If you are interested in the more human side of computing, love UI development, and your future career goals are to remain technical, it is definitely something I would look into. You will be surprised how many "MS level" jobs you find once you have your degree. :) Even if a job doesn't require it, it can definitely help if the MS is related to the job.

J.O.B. and experience

[havaloc]

Once you have one degree, more won't make a huge difference, if any. Experience is what counts most, after the first BA or BS. If you still want to pursue this, do it on your company's dime. A lot of corporations will pay for this kind of thing if it's related to your job.

Be prepared for a deluge of opinion...

[Pollux]

Which degree(s) do YOU think will go well with a Computer Science Bachelors?

When I read this, my first response would be to pit the question on the submitter. Why ask ./? We don't know who you are, your personality, or what you really want to do with your life five years down the road. Sure, you ask what would be helpful to increase your marketability, but marketability in what? My field is education, and I double majored in CS and Math Ed. An Ed degree would be great for any company looking for communication and management skills, but it won't get you very far if you're looking for marketability for anything to do with, say, software engineering.

I don't know if ./ will be able to help you with this type of personal decision. I've already seen a few friends drop out of college at some point because the only advice they followed was everybody elses, never their own.

Sure, you can get as much advice as you can take on what might "look good" on a resume, but I also knew a few classmates who tried for a minor that they thought would give them a one-up. In the end, they didn't like what they were studying, were too mentally exhausted to try harder, and just detested the class material so much that they then detested the work that came with it. And no employer's going to want to hire someone who isn't motivated to do their job, that's for sure.

Figure out what you would really like to do first. If you don't know, try out market yourself with what you have. If you then find something that you'd really like to go for but don't have what the education / experience, THEN you'll find the motivation to take more classes, and you'll know what you need to take.

Human factors, UI design and evaluation

[dduck]

It has worked very well for me. There is a renewed interest in devices that work well both technically and UI-wise, but very few people are trained in both diciplines. You will be /in/ the interface... a good place to be, if you want to have real influence on the final product.

Oh, and it's also a good starting point for striking out on your own as an innovator.

Visual Art/Design

[boatboy]

As an art major/ software developer, I would suggest Fine Art or at least a Graphic Design major. I've found that it helps in obvious ways like UI design, but also helps in other aspects of development. From a marketing standpoint, your resume shows you have both technical skills and creative abilities.

Graphic Design

[fuw]

I'm looking at complimenting my BS in CSc with a BA (or MFA, if I have to) in Graphic Design, but that's just me and what I love to do (web development, with a passion for CSS-design). I wouldn't think a degree in Graphic Design is any kind of income enhancing achievement.

Get some certifications

[clockwise_music]

Get either an MCP, Sun Java certification, or perhaps IBM's linux certification. Proof that you know what you're doing, and lots of jobs ask for them.

Forget the degree...

[thejam]

Be Einstein!

Narrow Focus

[Rollsbot]

I think you need to decide what you want to do (or what field you want to work in) and narrow your focus.

For instance, if you would like to work with websites (website management or SEO), getting a degree in marketing or communications would be an excellent option. Or on the other side, if you want to focus on web design possibly go for a fine art degree. If you want to do serious programming work, maybe look into a degree in mathematics.

All in all, I would say you are better off going for a master's degree in whatever area that you wish to focus on rather than getting a second bachelor's.

Mathematics

[mysfitt]

If you ever want to get that Dream job with Google, you'd better be pretty sharp on your Math skills.

Game Programming? You guessed it. Some of the most interesting programming jobs require a good deal of Math knowledge. MBAs make corporate executroids happy, but do you want to push paper, or create something?

You know the software, how about hardware?

[deszaras]

Get your A+

First: what do you want to do?

[Crackerman111]

What do you want to do? I think answering that question would make this question kind of moot. At the very least, it would prevent you from wasting a lot of time and money getting a degree that puts you no closer to your goals than you were before.

Join the Armed Forces

[Master Bait]

You will start off as an officer. Live on base and save all the money you can. Take free classes and score your Masters + you increase your salary. Then you retire with full benefits in only 20 years and the money you saved will buy you a ranch for cash. You get your retirement monies and benefits 'till the day you die. You can drop out of being a robot whore faster than any other method!

I actually met somebody who did this and I (kind of) envy them. They got married after they retired. All they do is play on their ranch.

Depends....

[jwegy]

It depends alot on what you are interested in.

Where do you see a need? What itches you enough to motivate you? Finance? Statistics? Games? Encryption? CPU design?
How about genetics or nano technology? Maybe its
user interface...whatever floats your boat so to speak.

My personal choice would be either electrical engineering or some sort of physics. After that, I would place finance or statistics.

Mandarin

[fliptout]

I'm an EE, and I took some time off to study Mandarin Chinese in Beijing.. If you have interest in living in china/taiwan, there are opportunities out the yin yang with the exploding economy in China.

Mandarin is probably the best thing to learn, though Cantonese is more prevalent in southern china. Not to mention english literacy is fairly high among educated chinese.

Should have done it the other way

[mollyhackit]

Get a B.S. in say Mechanical Engineering and then a Masters in Computer Science. Being able to apply computer science to a specific field is far better than just being able to program.

What about law?

[OldSchoolNapster]

Ive been considering persuing a law degree after I finish CS for some time now. I'll probably choose to work assuming I'm able to find a job but I was wondering how other people with CS degrees enjoyed law school and what opportunities it has opened up.

Re:What about law?

[richieb]

At a Linux user's group meeting, maybe two or three years ago, we had a lawyer talk about IP, patents etc. He said that there are law firms paying premium ($50K startup bonus), for lawyers with technical degrees.

Re:What about law?

[admsteiner]

As someone with a BA in CS and currently in law school (first year) I can tell you the opportunities are plenty and its a roaring field...I plan on doing IP and am in one of the top IP schools in the country.

feel free to contact me at ajsteine at yu dotedu if you have questions

Re:What about law?

[elysian1]

I'm currently a first year law student. I majored in applied mathematics with a computer science emphasis. I have about 2 years of programming experience. I really enjoy law school and would love to someday work as in-house counsel at a software company. However, I really like the law and I don't necessarily have to end up doing something with software. My degree does not allow me to sit on the patent bar (I need 2 more semesters of physics). However, if your degree is actually CS, you can sit for the patent bar and become a patent lawyer. Patent lawyers, especially in CS and EE, are in HIGH demand. Finding a job after law school is very competitive but if you're a CS or EE major, you can find a job relatively easy, as long as you don't completely bomb law school. The pay is usually very high, starting about $125k-$135k right out of law school with bonuses from $10-30k. I've noticed some of my friends with EE degrees are able to get interviews with not as good grades much easier than those without an EE degree. Anyways, I don't think law school is nearly as difficult as math or CS, but the workload is extreme. I had to get used to doing tons of reading in a relatively short period of time and legal writing. I believe English majors have a pretty good advantage in law school, or any other major that requires lots of reading and writing. However, math and CS skills such as logical and analytical thinking do help out a ton. Enough rambling. If you're interested in law school, get started with learning how to take the LSAT. It's very "learnable," and having a CS background will help in the logic games section.

Re:What about law?

[admsteiner]

Have to agree with you on that elysian. The CS background makes the logic part pretty simple. Not every CS degree can sit for the patent bar. Your school needs to have an approved program, if not you have to get it approved by the board (which I'm going to do). That involves sending in a transcript and course description.... Which law school are you in elysian? Send me an email and we can shmooze about the different courses and options. I'm also a 1L. ajsteine at yu dot edu

MBA is not the best option in all cases

[Hhhhh]

MBA is a good option if you want to go into industry, get some technical experience but then getting involved in management. After you start down that path you won't see much programming, it will be mainly administrative stuff. On the other hand, a Master on CS or a similar discipline DOES increase your marketability despite what other people have posted. You application will have more weight that those without a MS. And regarding PhDs, the market is not more limited (over-qualification is a myth), and all the very good paying jobs will definetely give priority to a PhD over anybody else. You first need to know what it is that you wanna do. If you like programming a lot, go for the MS, an MBA might increase your pay but it will drive you away from programming. If you like the idea of managing, then the MBA is a better option. But make sure you choose what you want because ending up doing something you hate can be depresing. And last, do NOT, NO, NEVER choose where you wanna go before knowing what it is that you want to do, unless you want to end up doing something you don't like. Really, and MBA in Harvard might get you a lot of money but if you like programing better than managing you'll hate your life.

consider an mba, BUT...

[CousinLarry]

...think about a business degree, but make sure you actually LIKE business and not just the idea of earning more (talk to friends that work in investment banks and the like).

If you haven't had any experience in business you may find that the people who gravitate towards "big business" are *not* like your engineering school buddies, usually. Often people in business have very different outlooks on the world and work than engineers.

The computer industry needs designers badly

[Anonymous Coward]

First of all, take something you like. You can do anything with computers really. Find something else you enjoy and study that, and then find a way to tie that into what you want to do with computers, there's got to be a way.

Failing that, take design. Go into graphic design or (better still) industrial design. There's so much crap in the computer industry that could be improved if only a designer had some input. And well-designed products (which is not something CS education prepares you to make) do make an impact on the market (the iPod being the most obvious example).

I got so tired of fighting against the computer industry and it's arrogant attitude toward designers that I quit, and am now going back to school to get a degree in industrial design. I really don't intend to go back to the computer industry, but I think if I had pursued design in the first place, I would've been better prepared for what I encountered there.

Most people don't realize that good design is a serious discipline and not just the result of taking a lot of art classes. I really would like to see more people take industrial design seriously in the computer industry, I think current attitudes have really held the whole industry back for years and I wouldn't mind if the newer CS grads started preparing to change all that.

And don't fall prey to the talent myth/trap (replacing religious determinism with scientific/genetic determinism -- how progressive). You don't have to be good at art or whatever other crap someone has fed you to be good in design. It's a discipline like any other and skills can be developed with time and effort.

Re:The computer industry needs designers badly

[tverbeek]

You don't have to be good at art or whatever other crap someone has fed you to be good in design. It's a discipline like any other and skills can be developed with time and effort.

That may be true in theory, but (in 8 years at a art & design school) I've never seen someone who wasn't already "good at art" on some level go on to succeed at graphic design. Probably because someone who doesn't already exhibit some facility with it is going to hate doing it, so they won't put in the time and effort. I mean, I could be a concert pianist... except that I hate practising the piano.

Its not the degree, its the job

[Lugor]

The degree doesn't really matter. Its what you want to do. If there is something you really want to do, you can do it. Seriously, if there is this DREAM JOB you want, and you can write a description for it, then I bet you can find some one (or company) who would pay you to do it. The key is a) you have to know what it is, and b) market yourself correctly. So first decide what you want to do, then figure out what degree you need (or don't).
Of course I have a MBA. The reason I have a MBA is because my dream job is international consulting. Essentially I want to get paid to travel the world and tell people what a horrible job they are doing.

No Kannada (was Hindi)

[Lulu of the Lotus-Ea]

Hindi is not the principle language of Karnakata, the state where Bangalore is located; Kannada is its official and largest language. Of course, in practice, tech workers in Bangalore come from different regions of India--or indeed, the world--so probably English is even more common in technical workplaces.

Re:No Kannada (was Hindi)

[spamspamspamspam]

I work for the Australian arm of a very large Indian IT company and I can confirm that English is by far the most common language used in IT outsourcing companies. Remember that English is an official language of India.

I wonder how successful Indian outsourcing would have been had the English had not set up a colony and left their language there.

Re:No Kannada (was Hindi)

[Almost-Retired]

Hindi is not the principle language of Karnakata, the state where Bangalore is located; Kannada is its official and largest language. Of course, in practice, tech workers in Bangalore come from different regions of India--or indeed, the world--so probably English is even more common in technical workplaces.

Excuse me, but since when is that crap being spoken by the tech support folks who've been pharmed out to India being called english?

Its even worse than some of the quotes on engrish.com!

I've spent the better part of a couple of hours on the phone with someone whose command of the english language was so poor that I was never able to make him understand what my problem really was, and the best I could understand was that I was supposed to downgrade the firmware in the device. It was a router, and with the latest firmware in it, it would not pass either icmp or udp traffic, and lagged the tcp traffic down to about 50 bytes second effective speed.

With the downgraded firmware installed, tcp worked most of the time, and icmp could get through, but still no udp. I tried 2 of them, getting slightly better results with sample #2, but finally gave it up and got my money back from Circuit City.

This outfit is so disconnected from reality I got an email from them the other day, claiming the .zip file attached was beta software, and would I please try it. Unforch, there was no attachment. And I do know where there are two more samples that I could have tried that firmware in had it been attached.

Now, to put this back on subject, I'd certainly poo-poo the idea of getting an MBA, because I've yet to meet an MBA who was willing to get his hands dirty, or in one case, wasn't even worth the bullet to put him out of my misery.

I'd tend to think the CPA might be OK, or a good electrical engineering school. Anything that can improve your knowledge of the hardware your code runs on is a definite plus in my view. Classes that cover the physics of semiconductors is something that if the engineering school offers, should be scarfed up as fast as you can raise the tuition. Knowing how stuff works, and how it can fail, is priceless when something thats busted, absolutely must be working by the 5 oclock news hour. It gets you raises you didn't have to ask for is one side effect. And you get people asking to see your feet cause they heard you can walk on water.

All of that would give you a leg up on the resume IMO. I would certainly look favorably on such a resume, at least till the interview, my BS filter usually works pretty good.

I speak from the vantage point of old age, 70 now, mostly retired, having been there, and done that, on some mighty interesting projects in my 55 years of chasing electrons for a living. My fingerprints were in the cameras that were on the Trieste when it went 37,000 feet down into the mohole, and my fingerprints (if they hadn't been washed off that is) were on some of the hardware that gave John Glenn his first ride to black skies.

I've written niche software that was in continuous daily use at the tv stations where I've engineered at for well in excess of a decade, twice now. And in both cases I also had to design and build the hardware, the first time litterally from scratch using vectors S100 cards. Video, and control interfaces to both the human and the machine it was controlling. I'l bet you didn't know you can generate a 2 digit counter display with a 4 bit counter, a 74154, some diodes, and 6 bytes worth of dma per vertical synch pulse. Fun times, those.

Funny thing, I have never outright asked for a raise, I earned them, and sometimes even walked away from them, like the CE position at a tv station in 1979, a small market station, I was the one man engineering dept. It finally got to me and I walked away from $25,000 a year, which was pretty good money in 1979.

That 55 years I quoted above is not a typo, I quit school in the middle of my freshman year in high school

personally, i went with...

[crumshot]

electrical or computer engineering. you know software, now learn hardware. it'll vastly increase the number of jobs you can apply for. plus, you wont be stuck in a cubicle for 45 hours a week pounding out line after line of code (can you tell i hate programming?). you'll be able to go down to the lab and get a hands-on experience.

3 more months and then i graduate with a bachelors in computer/electrical enginering (math minor as well). basically ive taken a bunch of circuit analysis, digital logic design, microcontroller design, modern processor design, plus ive had my fair share of programming.

basically what im trying to say is that learning the hardware aspect of computers will open up many more doors as far as your career is concerned. once you know hardware AND software, there will be basically nothing you can't do.

bioinformatics

[mulcher]

Bioinformatics or Systems Biology. You can go a long way in multiple industries with this training. Comprehensive in engineering, biology, mathematical modeling of dynamics systems, information theory... woot!

Quantum Finance is better....

[Chyeld]

The money could be in the account, or it could not be in the account. You can only know how much money or which account the money is in, not both!

Nitpickin'

[mr.newt]

Attention Masses:

The word you're looking for is "complement," not "compliment."

Thank you.

xray crystallography

[a3217055]

Xray Crystallography is the science of studying crystals using xrays.
Its is computationaly dependent, much math, physics and chemistry is required. Most number of Noble Prizes in physics have resulted from research on xray cryatallography.
It is worth learning a certain specific science that will tie your scientific areas together. So you can apply all that you have learned in the world towards solving problems using many different methods.
Another interesting set of classes you many want to take is in visual arts so you broaden your horizons. Any idiot can read a book and learn something; to get vision to see beyond the world's boundaries one needs to excercise the other side of the brain even if you hate it. Long story cut short focus on your strengths, and learn you weakness. Here you learn how to percieve your world and how you can learn from their to solve problems. Long story cut short create the world that you want to live in.
Good luck in the big bad world ( which really isn't that bad .... just not nice )

Teaching

[mark-t]

Get your degree for teaching high school.

degrees

[thedfm]

I always get strange looks from people when I tell them that I have a Bachelor's Degree in Information Technology, as well as Bachelors degree in Arts (majoring in History). Combining the future with the past, I say!

Do a Business Degree

[Exter-C]

A science degree with a business degree will be good for management growth while still staying technical.

professional student?

[lemonrat]

What makes you marketable is experience. Find a good company that will give you room to grow into your own self selected specialty. The bet IT professionals are "naturals". They know how to problem solve absolutely anything. An MBA is worthless in my opinion. Find the right fit in the real world and there are many opportunites out there that don't require another degree.

Re:professional student?

[Hhhhh]

I disagree with your comment that MBAs are worthless. A technical degree + MBA combo is actually very good, you can get good paying jobs and you can move up in the management ladder fairly quick, IF you love management stuff. The issue is what it is that he wants to do. Maybe an MBA is not what would be best for his goals. Maybe a graduate IT degree isn't either. Maybe grad school altogether isn't. He hasn't told us what it is that he would like to do.

marketability?

[ave19]

you must be a business type. go that way. please.

It depends on your goals

[Intelopment]

If your goal is CEO/CFO/Preident type role, then an MBA might be a good choice, however I feel you would get more value from a Masters in Software Engineering. Depending on the school, but some provide an excellent balance of how to do it (from a business perspective) as well as the whole issue of how to do it better (using better engineering pricipals in the development process). Carnie Melon has a great program, if you are rich. There are many other valuable MS SE programs out there. I encourage you to take a look.

No magic silver bullet degree

[wintermute42]

There is no magic degree bullet. I went to school with a lot of pre-meds (my undergrad degree is in biology). A number of the premeds wanted to go into medicine because they thought that the degree would be the magic carpet to a high income and job security.

As it turned out, things were not so simple. HMOs put pressure on doctor's fees and medicine is a field where there is more burnout than people want to admit. For people who are not good at relationships with other people (most of the premeds I knew) seeing people for the same kind of thing year after year becomes a huge bore. By the time they hit their forties some doctors would like to do something else, but it is too late to easily change professions and they are used to making a lot of money.

Since there is no degree that I know of that will guarantee a good income, job security AND interesting work, you might was well go for a degree in something that interests you and might improve your job prospects.

If I were to get another degree I'd get a degree in quantitative finance. That is, the application of mathematical techniques to financial modeling and trading of stocks, bonds, foreign exchange and so on. Having a solid software background and the ability to handle the math is a big asset. Of course for some of us the downside is that you may have to live in or around New York city (but this is a feature for other people).

I'll second that

[vlad_petric]

While not directly saying it, what most employers appreciate is the ability to deliver. Best way to achieve this in college? An opensource project.

Re:I'll second that

[MerlinTheWizard]

While employers certainly appreciate the "ability to deliver", this is not necessarily what's going to get you a higher salary. (Well, assuming you're after that, but who wants to work more without getting paid more?)

So, while experience is a good way of getting a job, too much specific experience will work against you, in a way: you risk falling into the "Peters principle" trap. You know you'll get a job, but you risk never getting ahead much in your career. This is exactly why so many people attend MBAs these days. Not just to be competent and have a job - but to enhance their careers. Something experience itself is often not enough to achieve.

Re:I'll second that

[rossifer]

I would say co-op or internship doing development (as opposed to sorting coffee-stirrers as some of my peers ended up doing) is more valuable than contributing to an open source project, but either will show that you can actually deliver something.

However, there's little stopping anyone from starting to contribute to an open source project any time they like. Getting a co-op or intern job takes a little more commitment and time...

Regards,
Ross

Re:I'll second that

[MobyTurbo]

While not directly saying it, what most employers appreciate is the ability to deliver. Best way to achieve this in college? An opensource project.

That of course depends upon the company you're applying to. If you apply to Microsoft one of the questions they ask is "have you worked on or otherwise seen the code of an open source project licensed under the GPL or similar so-called "viral" license"? If you answer in the affirmative, you won't be hired. Of course, nobody wants to work in a company like that anyway. ;-)

Re:I'll second that

[spongman]

I'd say the best thing to do if you're still in college is to get an internship at a large fortune-500 software company.

You'll impress most potential employers if you can say that you worked for a company they know, worked on a product they've probably used, know how (at least part of) it works and can answer details questions about problems you solved and technologies/techniques you learned, and have a good reference and pay-check at the end of it.

Re:I'll second that

[fegu]

This statement is right on.
I am an employer. We are a small consulting company doing software development for our customers.
Our first question to anyone looking for a job is: what have you done that was not a compulsory excercise at school?
You would not believe how many we reject on this question alone.

MSSTC: Science and Technology Commercialization

[headtoadie]

Excellent program offerd by the Univ. of Texas.

http://msstc.ic2.org/index.php

The ability to commercialize new technology rapidly is essential for competitive advantage in dynamically changing private and public sector environments. Science and technology commercialization is key to the reinvention of organizations and the basis for the creation of new customer oriented technology-based enterprises.

Through the MSSTC program you will gain the knowledge and skills to cope with the formidable economic, social, financial, and political changes associated with creating economic value from knowledge. The focus is on the rapid transfer of research, knowledge, and technology from ideas to the marketplace - the entrepreneurial wealth creation process.

Get your career diploma NOW!

[mb12036]

From Devry Institute of Technology. You can specialize in:

Medical CLaims Processing
Paralegal
Medical Transcription
Refridgerator Repair
Bookkeeping

Or get your high school diploma!!!

what do you want to do

[slo_learner]

Do you want to write code? Do you want to manage others? Do you want to be a soul sucking salesman?

By all means get an MBA and look for the highest paying job you can find, if what you want is a nice car. If the work itself is important to you, then you are going to have to answer this question by yourself.

The people I envy most accidently find out they can make money while they are busy doing something they would do anyway.

Well, with outsourcing

[SpacePunk]

A degree in restaraunt management so you won't have to learn to say "Do you want fries with that?"

English!

[saintp]

Seriously. You'll stand out among a bunch of other CS weenies who probably barely even speak the language -- not to mention all of the H-1 visa holders. (Ever read /.? Case in point.) An English degree tells potential employers that you can a) communicate effectively, and b) research thoroughly; both are highly valued by the people who do the hiring. You'll be much more appealing than the hordes of MBA grads, whose major marketable skill is that they can say "ROI" a lot.

If English doesn't appeal to you, any degree in the humanities will look great, since most require language and research skills, and present you as a well-rounded renaissance person, not a single-minded code zombie. (Read: as someone who makes decisions, not as someone who is subject to them.) History is also particularly good.

Remember: CS majors stereotypically are introverted nerds who can't communicate with anyone who doesn't speak LISP. CS majors with MBAs are stereotypically suit-wearing nerd-wannabes who can't communicate with anyone who doesn't speak Marketroid. Anything you can do to prove that you're not either of those will help a lot.

Re:English!

[bcs_metacon.ca]

I totally agree with this. Communication skills are more highly prized the further you advance in your career. Of course, if you want to be a low-level code monkey forever, it's worth less. But if you want to further your education, you probably want to further your career too.

Re:English!

[wintermute1000]

A caution, though; as a woman who lists a few writing prizes on her resume alongside her math and computer science degrees-in-progress, I have found that a least one interviewer I spoke to tried to pigeonhole me as a technical writer. Now, I'm good at writing, but I'm not in CS to be a goddamn technical writer and the fact that I've got CS research and hardcore electronics jobs on my resume can attest to that. I don't know if this is just because the guy who interviewed me was more comfortable thinking of me as a girl writer than as a girl coder or what, but it can definitely be dangerous.

So, maybe it's just a girl thing, and maybe it isn't, but if you've got anything remotely fuzzy on your resume, people might try to steer you away from coding and into something more customer or documentation oriented. If that isn't your sup of tea, think twice.

Re:English!

[saintp]

I don't think it's a girl thing, although that might be part of it. I frequently have people try to think of me as a tech writer, which I'm not, and I'm a guy. I find that more often, though, people think, "Hey, this person can write good documentation for the code they write" rather than, "Hey, let's stick this person in a room far away from any real coding." As you mentioned, hardcore coding/EE jobs help. The objective on your resume can help, too -- you just have to be insistent that coding (or management) is your goal, not the living hell that is tech writing.

Re:English!

[LarsWestergren]

Amen. Note that almost all here chose to focus on his "improve marketability" words. He also mentioned "complementing his education".

Do humanistic studies such as languages or history. You might not get as much chance of a salary boost, but you will become a better and more interesting person.

It is like the zen koan. If you are at the top of a flagpole, how do you get any higher? Improve yourself.

Something interesting and different

[Rintrah]

If the MBA interests you, then I would say, "Go for it!" However, note the number of people who are either getting or considering the pursuit of an MBA. There may be a large number of people with similar qualifications (and possibly more experience) out there competing for the same job.

My suggestion is to find an interesting, if not unusual, graduate program. Particularly in liberal arts, you will bring something interesting to the program/discipline (you will have an edge) + when you go searching for that job, your background will stick out. The person reading the resumes won't recall all of the CS/MBAs, but the CS B.S with an M.A. in Linguistics or History will likely stand out (besides, there ARE interesting intersections in many of these fields). Moreover, the most important fact is that you are capable of obtaining an advanced degree - you can focus, do independent research, etc.

History

[OhHellWithIt]

If you study history, you'll better understand the global forces that affect your life, gain some appreciation for dealing with other cultures, and be able to spout arcane bits of trivia that have absolutely NOTHING to do with bits and bytes, which may or may not be helpful in dealing with non-techies. You'll be better able to deal with the fact that computers are a means, not an end. Not that this will advance your career one whit, but at least you'll be wiser than some of the people with MBAs that are screwing up companies and nations.

I should give you the caveat that the only degree I have is a B.A. in languages granted over 20 years ago. I seem to be no more nor less employable than people my age with comp sci degrees. At a certain point, a job is a job, and what really matters is paying the mortgage and making it to the kid's class play.

The passion

[charvolant]

Only do a postgraduate degree if you have a passion for the subject matter. If you do have that passion, you'll have a great time, a really interesting life and meet lots of clever, deranged and interesting people.

You will also never be rich -- unless you are extremely lucky.

But that is a judgement call on your part. It is, however, worth remembering that "quality of life" and "standard of living" are not equivalent.

Choose one

[peterpi]

"I want to further my education, and increase my marketability."

I'd make your mind up on one and concentrate on that. If you think they're the same thing, chat to some potential employers.

Animation

[TrippSkiggins]

Try majoring in art. This opens the way for computer animation and the motherload: Pixar.

Bioinformatics

[X86Daddy]

If you like the frontiers of biology, consider becoming a gene hacker... Cutting edge stuff, very exciting if you're into it.

The obvious questions

[amuro98]

No one's asked the obvious question here: *WHY* do you want to go back to school, and *WHAT* do you want to do with your education?

If all you want to do is further your education for its own personal sake, then take something like history, or philosophy, or something that interests you personally. If nothing else, you'll gain a certain balance that most tech-degrees utterly lack.

If you want to move up in the business world - say, into management or even starting your own company - then an MBA is an obvious choice.

That said, you cannot ever go wrong studying a 2nd language. You don't need to get a degree in it (though, I did) but demonstratable proficency in another language will immediatly put you in a different category than "just another BS-CS coder..."

Depends on the why?

[griffjon]

Why are you taking comp sci? you like computers? Programming? Working long hours in small cubicles for good pay?

For undergrad, focus on breadth, not depth. Find some other field you like and take courses. Try and get away from the sciences for a bit; learn how to put a well-written paper together (helps a LOT later on), learn a foreign language (German or Japanese or Hindi for complimentary usage, Spanish or French for development work and interesting travel options)

Take some philosophy courses, learn how to argue, how to pick apart an argument, and heck, maybe even some ethics and existential crises to boot!

Shop around. Heck, don't even get a second major, just take lots and lots of courses around the university. Get an education, and you'll find a career. If you spend all your time getting a career, you're more vulnerable to changes in what the workforce needs (i.e., you are more likely to get your job outsourced and have no other skills).

Think about it. What makes you happy? Your undergrad is the best opportunity you'll ever have to get educated on things that aren't directly in your line of work, but nonetheless could make you a better, more rounded person.

Back to being boring, if you want things that dovetail with programming, foreign languages, math, biology (bio-informatics), music...

Tough one

[Proc6]

The obvious ones come to mind, "invisibility", "telekenisis" and "flight". While "superhuman strength" might have some use, it will likely be less so in the future as computers get smaller and lighter. You might also look into "shape shifting" and "teleportation", the latter being helpful if your employment requires long commutes.

Typically

[Safety Cap]

>A CS + MBA from 2002-2004 merely means "I couldn't remain employeed during the downturn".

... and when I show up ... and have full employment from B.S. graduation to MBA graduation, you say what, exactly?

You hit it on the head: it says that he, like 99% of all other employers, have neither have the faintest idea as to what makes a good candidate, nor how to interview her to discover this information.

Instead they rely on mostly-useless resumes and/or pull something from the "Big Book of Interview Questions":

• What was your worst day?
• Where do you see yourself in 5 years?
• What is your greatest weakness?
• (etc)

Depends

[agoliveira]

It depends what you want to do:
Manage? An MBA as already posted here.
Research? What about math?
Embedded? Electronics.

Mechanical Engineering

[RPI Geek]

I'd say that your second degree should really reflect your interests. If you're looking to do something that you have a passion for, and you don't care about the marketability, just study something that you love. If you're looking for marketability alone, get a business degree. If you're trying to break into a certain field, study the area most closely related to it.

I'm studying for a dual bachelor's in MechE / CS at RPI. Combining these majors was one of the best things I did at RPI. I love working with computers and I love learning about the mechanical world; I didn't choose my majors solely because that's what I wanted to do for a job.

I didn't think a dual degree would be very marketable, but now that I'm looking for a job, I'm finding that not only are the employers from both fields contacting me, but when I talk to them, they love the fact that I'm able to talk as comfortably about program stacks as grar trains.

Just one poor student's opinion.

Physics

[Physicles]

1) Get a degree in a field that interests you.

2) Don't Get a degree to increase your "marketability", unless it increases your "marketability" in a field that you would want a job in. In which case, see (1).

I mostly agree. I'm a junior at the University of Michigan. I started with pure physics, then added CS because I've always liked programming. Since then, my interest in physics has waned -- I've considered dropping my major several times -- but professors have encouraged me to stick with it, so I have. I've found physics to be more difficult intellectually than CS.

Physics and CS go well together. You can't really be a physicist anymore without having some programming skills. And if you want to do any kind of physical simulation, whether with fluids or rigid bodies or traffic or galaxies, then you'll need expertise in both areas.

About half those with a BS in physics go into industry (as opposed to continuing their education), many to jobs unrelated to physics. If you have a degree in physics, employers see that you know how to solve problems well.

It's paying off for me, as I currently have one internship offer and am following two more tracks for other internships. They're at good companies (though at least one has been called evil here). Everyone I talked to at the career fair a while back remarked about my physics major.


If you can't find another major you like, then just dig in and kick butt with CS. Take a course on object-oriented programming that covers design patterns, and do lots of work on cool projects in your free time.

What do you like doing?

[VolciMaster]

I've been asked by several people in my church recently what I think would be a good degree path for their son or daughter to pursue.

You have at least something of a career path framed in your mind, and experince (I presume) with the CS degree. What do you want to do, though, now that you have all that theoretical knowledge? You probably aren't lookign to be a code monkey somewhere, imlpementing what other CS majors have designed, complaining that they never took any of your advice, or even ask for input from you.

I'm mroe of the IT end of things, working on finishing up my bachelor's degree in CIS. However, I started my 'career' in programming working with a friend on fluid-flow analysis using finite element analysis software that we wrote from scratch. I didn't understand most of the math (I was only in 9th grade when we started), but I did learn a lot through that experience. I learned that I didn't want to just be a programmer. I wanted to be doing work at the systems analysis and design level, system/network administration. Both are high-level, complex job functions where your employer expects you to work at the macro level, but be able to jump down to the micro layers when needed.

If you liked all the math you did for your CS degree, I would reccommend going back for some form of engineering (I would personally choose mechanical, civil, or aerospace engineering). A few other posters suggested getting and MBA. They're great if you want to get into the business side of things. If you want to work for some place like AutoCAD, though, I'd say engineering will help a lot more than an MBA. If you want to get into running an IT department, then the MBA will give you the business savvy that higher-level management wants, but your CS background will keep you grounded in the technical details that your users will need.

Feasibility of acceptance for second degree

[Eye Claudivs]

I haven't seen anyone comment on the feasibility of obtaining a second degree, specifically from the perspective of university acceptance. I am a senior-level software engineer who holds a Master's degree (in Geography of all things), and have wanted for some time to pursue a degree in Computer Science. However, one barrier to pursuing this goal is the fact that here in the state of Washington, I have found only one university (WSU) that is receptive to the idea of a post-baccalaureate candidate pursuing an undergraduate degree (UW, Seattle U, and Gonzaga do not seem to offer these).

The other barrier stems from the fact that lack of formal academic training in computer science has never been a factor in my career progression. I initially started working with GIS and Remote Sensing systems, began coding to customize, and soon was learning C to code up data processing algorithms that basic GIS packages do not support out-of-the-box. Ten years later, I'm in a full-time software engineering position that has nothing to do with GIS or geospatial data. While I had always assumed in the past, when I was getting into programming, that not having a CS, Math, or Engineering degree would be an impediment to my progress, it has turned out to not be an issue at all. The irony is that I actually WANT to obtain such a degree, but I have not found it feasible to pursue, because universities aren't always receptive to granting second degrees, and my employer doesn't care if I have a relevant degree or not!

Re:Feasibility of acceptance for second degree

[Hhhhh]

Usually, having two bachelor degrees is worthless. 2 years of a MS or MBA will be much better than 2 bachelors (I've asked many people about this, and EVERYONE agreed). Go to grad school, don't waste your time. Note: there are majors that are intended to be used in conjunction with another one. For example, many schools make their language majors that way, so that you can double major in Business and Korean, for example. These are exceptions to this rule

Re:Feasibility of acceptance for second degree

[Madcapjack]

I have an undergraduate degree in anthropology. I am a MS-CS now. I was advised that getting a second bachelors degree would take me as long as getting a MS degree. The choice was pretty obvious. The hard part was finding a school which would accept someone into a master's program on a conditional basis, since I had not CS experience at all. I hope to transfer to a better program when i get all the pre-reqs out of the way.

The Other Three Letters:

[ackthpt]

Don't get me wrong. Education is a good thing, but it really seems like everyone and his sister are enrolling in an MBA program.

Ugh, the last time we had a surplus of Business people in the economy they made themselves essential by pushing the Other Three Letters: TQM - Total Quality Management, which led to who knows how much total madness.

got a vision statement?

Re:A Law Degree in IP!

[Hhhhh]

You might be sarcastic about it, but CS + law makes a good combo and I know people that are actually doing very well.

Never?

[elluzion]

You've never seen a masters degree required in any job ads?
Try looking in the scientific, engineering and/or academic fields. The MS is often either required or preferred.
For instance, JPL often lists jobs as requiring X years or experience w/ BS degree or X/2 years of experience w/ MS degree.

Physics or math

[CanadaDave]

Physics or math. Stay away from chemistry or biology. If you know physics and math you can figure out chemistry or biology, but not vice versa.

Re:Physics or math

[razberry636]

If you know physics and math you can figure out chemistry or biology, but not vice versa.

I disagree, at least on the biology side. While biology depends on chemistry (as chemistry depends on physics) biology is something different. In my experience, after finishing the prerequisites for pharmacy school, biology is more about memorization and regurgitation than problem-solving.

Now if you actually LIKE biology then take classes in that. I worked for a while in bioinformatics, and I learned that there are opportunities in research for those who know computers and biology. (You also have to really know your biology to be useful, though, or else you end up making web-enabled biological databases.)

I've said this before, but computer science is like math: you could just study computer science and just be a programmer/software engineer or whatever, or you could get a degree in something else where you could use your programming skills to solve problems in another field.

One more thing, and it's been said before on this topic: take classes or get experience in something that you really like. If you like it, you will be good at it in no time. For example, I don't like flipping burgers. I had a job flipping burgers that was very brief. Later, I got a job in television. I learned all kinds of stuff and became good at it because I enjoyed it. Ergo, I became valuable.

Re:I can think of a few...like MD

[Misanthropy]

The possibility of late life unemployment was one of the many things that led me to "augment" my CS degree with an MD.
Medicine is one of the fields where if there is any age bias it is definitely in the older guy's favor.

I'm actually thinking seriously about specializing in radiology as it is the "geekiest" of medical specialties.
And my CS experience would definitely be helpful in working with all of the really cool high tech rad stuff.
Still have a while before all that is decided though.

1-1/2 years down...many more to go.

B.A. in Basket Weaving

[Dark Coder]

Goes a long way to teaching (and preserving) the ancient civilization of weaving basket. And maybe recapture those lost arts of basket weaving.

Plus, you can put that final nail of a couple more rural basket weavers into the obsolete technology career coffin. And keep the job where it belongs, technology pink-collar workers where they need it most.

Besides, you actually do get to put that Design Pattern book to good use.

law

[the-build-chicken]

Trust me...if you want to do anything in comp sci in upcoming years, you're going to need a lawyer...might as well make it you and save some money.

top tier vs good school

[tokengeekgrrl]

So I'm getting burnt out on programming and especially having to implement poor decisions by the management of my IT dept. Since I don't like to be a whiner, I figured if I think I can do better then I should move into IT management. So I went to grad school part-time to get a MBA. As soon as I finish my thesis, I'll graduate, officially.

I went to a fully accredited school with good name recognition and reputation, a solid state university, but not top tier. I could have gotten into a "better" school but none would do what the school I chose did: accommodate my work schedule, allow me to focus on IT for my graduate work and not put in me debt for years to come. Some of my classes were outstanding with professors who earned their PhDs at Stanford and Harvard. I enjoyed and learned a ton from my economics, operations and statistics, marketing, finance and accounting classes. Some of my classes were lame.

Regardless, I already have some interest from people hiring within my current department and friends of friends even though I haven't officially graduated yet so having a MBA, plus my 7+ years experience in IT, is opening IT management doors for me.

As many people said earlier, it depends what you want to do with it and what experience you have. The program I was in would not take someone just out of undergrad. You had to have a minimum of 5 years professional work experience and submit your objective as to what you wanted to get from having a MBA as a writing sample in addition to as minimum GMAT score.

That said, I have a friend who is at Columbia to get a MBA. He wants to work on Wall Street so Columbia is the perfect place for him to be. He told me the first year was a joke, alot of networking social events and schmoozing, very little actual work or studying. Since his undergrad degree was in business, there isn't anything being taught that he hasn't already been exposed to although he did say the second year has been a bit more rigorous. He told me that he realizes he's taken out 100K+ in loans so he can put Columbia on his resume and meet potential employers with whom Columbia has a relationship. Given what he wants to do, that's money well spent.

To the OP: take your time, figure out what you want to get out of it, weigh carefully the cost vs benefit of a top tier vs middle tier school and good luck!

- tokengeekgrrl

BSc-MSc-PhD-MBA

[j.leidner]

MBA. You've learned how. Now learn why. The resultant doubling of your earnings potential is just a sad side-effect you're going to have to learn to cope with.

Get an MSc, then a PhD, then an MBA.

In your BSc, you have learned some fundamentals. An MSc/MA/MPhil will take you to the next level; you will be able to read research-level academic papers and get more in-depth knowledge of certain areas within CS, and in your Master's thesis you can practice academic writing yourself and get a tiny taste of what research is like.

This will prepare you for your PhD, where you you will be working independently and become a leading expert in a narrow sub-area of your preferred sub-discipline.

We can now say you've learned how (following the wording of the parent post, but please do keep on studying - lifelong learning is true path). Next learn why (again using the parent post's wording; I'd prefer to call it 'learning how' still, just that the 'how' relates to business at this rather than technology). An MBA is a fast-track way to get an overview over business matters (financing, marketing, strategy, management). Of course you can also get a job instead and pick things up on the fly if you can't get a scholarship and don't have any savings. The job is the slow way, the MBA faster, but you might not lust for much future school education at this stage.

Congratulations! - Now you are what they call over-qualified: you can see problems everywhere that nobody else can see; you discover programmers are using the wrong algorithms, academic papers are full of technical and methodological flaws, and everywhere management is badly organised and lacking strategic vision, all of which might disillusion you.

Your feeling at this stage probably resembles what your Zen master wants to create inside you when he or she beats you with a stick in order to enlighten you. Now take some time off and think about something really clever to do because you're approaching a good age for early retirement.

Just learn a skill, like tap dancing!!!

[Hhhhh]

Now you can impress you new boss!

Experience.

[mhollis]

It's simple. Get experience in your chosen field. Then, go back to school after, say 6 to 10 years to keep your proficiency high on a Masters' degree level -- and in an area where you have a lot of passion.

Of if you think you have no immediate marketability, you might try going into law school for three years. The first year is really tough, the second to a little easier. That way you can get immediate job offers from the FBI. If you pass your bar exam you can quickly go to work for Comp-Sci companies with legal issues like Microsoft, SCO, Apple, etc...

Of course in-house lawyers aren't real lawyers in my opinion, but they are employed and usually with benefits.

The simple answer

[ocbwilg]

What do you like to do? Pick a degree that will let you do it and go for it. Getting an MBA may double your salary if you take a management job, but if you have no interest or affinity for management then you will quickly find yourself unsatisfied or unhappy, and then the degree is pretty much worthless.

Marketability is a great thing, but employers can tell when you have a passion for your work. I would prefer to have a single truly driven employee than three clock-punchers.

Dawn a white cap!

[cygtoad]

This is going to sound very odd, but have you considered Nursing? I have a couple of years experience as an ICU RN and I have to tell you that will the recent push towards electronic medical records, I could essentially pick where I want to work right now, and I don't see that fizzling out in my lifetime. I work in the hospital's IT department and finding the IT/RN combo doesn't seem to easy to come by these days. Food for thought.

Re:Dawn a white cap!

[marble_sedile]

Prisons and heath care the growth industries of America... be a nurse

Suggestion for degree

[firefly2442]

CmSc and Psychology. That's what I'm going for but I want to get into AI research. :)

Biology

[FleaPlus]

There's a huge demand for computational/quantitative folks in the biological sciences. Plus, the work you do there is freakin' cool (speaking as a theoretical neurobiologist).

You may find the following article in PLoS Biology interesting:

Mathematics Is Biology's Next Microscope, Only Better; Biology Is Mathematics' Next Physics, Only Better

A degree in sidewalk begging?

[Cryofan]

You would be better off with many other degrees. CS is now taught as a major part of most other science/engineering degrees.

Re:A degree in sidewalk begging?

[Money for Nothin']

Indeed. Even in economics, students are required to take a basic course in C/C++ usually, and (at my school) wind up having a working competence with SAS.

I'm gonna get flamed for this, but . . .

[mmell]

Get an MBA. Executroids are so-o-o-o impressed with that (probably because that's what they have).

Or, if a lobotomy isn't in your future, consider a secondary in one of the business related sciences -- business law, accounting.

Third choice -- if you plan to actually get a job when you grow up, take a course of study appropriate to the industry in which you intend to work (if that's the IT industry, well, see above about getting an MBA. Maybe they won't require a lobotomy; ECT may be enough ;^).

English.

[Em Adespoton]

Most CS majors have a real problem with that specific language. Being able to translate between the two is highly marketable. Also knowing another language (Chinese, Spanish, French, Arabic) is a large bonus.

Re:I can think of a few... techy or managey??

[zurtle]

It really depends what future you want for yourself, particularly in the short term. I found that coupling

a mathematics degree with

software engineering and

some hardware knowledge makes for a damned useful combination - especially in a communications/signal processing environment playing with all sorts of signals and modulation schemes.

If you want a broad range of subjects to cover, go for Test Engineering, it covers a helluva lot of areas of interest to most geeks! And I don't mean script-writing etc, that's for the technicians. This is full-on test system implementation - a pivotal position in any engineering company is test automation for hardware/software.

Take a look at the Raytheon job site, or other sites, they are screaming out for people in test engineering roles! It is a vital role in major companies.

From my short experience, MBAs are suitable for older people who can't make it up the management chain on their own (this isn't intended as a troll). It is valuable though, as people have plastered all through this thread, the right MBA works wonders, much like a laxative.

Additional Degrees

[WanderingPebble]

Depends on your interests. I suggest that you get a Minor in English before getting anything else. It would help you communicate better. A minor in a foreign language would also help. French for Europe or Spanish for the Americas. You can get those at a junior/community college where it would be less expensive. After you have worked 5 years, then get an MBA for management or the Math for the technical.

Requirements vs desired assets

[jcdill]

At first, I thought of a Master's, but in my searches for a job, I've rarely (read: never) seen a Masters degree required.

Although very few job reqs state that a Master's degree is required this doesn't mean that a Master's degree isn't a valuable asset when evaluating job candidates. If a company has several candidates for a position and one has a Master's degree, the Master's is going to be a big plus for that candidate.

The best way to find out what type of further education would be most valuable to YOU is to interview people who are doing the type of work you want to be doing in 10-15 years. Ask them what education they have that A) enabled them to be hired for that job and B) best prepared them for that job. (These may not be the same thing.)

Depends on what you want to do

[cadfael]

It will require you to identify the market you want to enter. If you want to be a telecom dev person, an MBA might not be as useful as an EE degree. Likewise, if you want to do technical writing, I would suggest a lit degree instead of the EE.

Personally, I would say that an EE degree gives you pretty wide access to the market, but since I hire EE/CS dual degree people constantly, my view might be somewhat biased.

East Asian Studies?

[DavidBartlett]

I plan to go on to East Asian Studies after I finish my CS degree. If the jobs are going to China, US companies will need professionals who understand the technology and the region.

Re:East Asian Studies?

[spac3manspiff]

It would be more pratical to study abroad and get the CS degree. It's one thing reading about the country, but actually living there is another.

Art History...

[Upaut]

So when you go out and find you can't get a job as a techie anyway, you can at least entertain yourself by painting wonderful images onto the hamburgers you prepare...

Re:Three Letters: (I'm glad to see this)

[TheAntiCrust]

In soviet Russia, slashdot outgrows you!

hehe, that made me giggle.

Industrial Engineering

[prozac79]

I know industrial engineering wouldn't be peoples' first choice to couple with a C.S. degree. However, it makes a lot of sense. Industrial engineering is the study of pipelines/assembly lines and how to put things together effeciently. So while that doesn't directly tie in with programming, it does teach you a slightly difference skill set that you can apply to any programming project. It seems like every project that I work on we always ask, "How can we make this run faster?" Or, "Is there a way to streamline this process and make it more efficient?". So you can approach those questions from both a C.S. and an industrial perspective. Combine a degree in Industrial Engineering with Computer Science and that will move you up from the position of code monkey to someone who actually architects and designs things.

Oh, and if that doesn't pan out, get the MBA. Computer Science people are already well suited for those programs.

Gee...wonder why?

[Mr. Underbridge]

They are hired strictly as good team players with good communication skills, who are good corporate citizens.

So what you're saying is, you can code OK but you have poor communication skills and can't fit in with the corporate structure.

Don't want to be mean, but it isn't your CS degree that's the problem - the people getting the jobs have those too, remember - it's your lack of social skills.

Imagine someone with good people skills who can code too? I bet that person gets the job.

I'd rather see hiring based on pure skills, but that's not how U.S IT companies do it.

Until you find this magical job that allows you to be the sole developer on your own project, people skills are relevant skills for a programmer. It seems to be something you lack, so don't be surprised by your inability to find a job you feel is commensurate with your coding abilities.

This isn't college anymore. You don't get to work by yourself. A good coder who can't interact with people is less valuable than a decent coder who can.

If you care to notice, you could learn a valuable life lesson here.

Re:Gee...wonder why?

[Vellmont]

Maybe you should drop the "I know exactly who you are based on one five line post on slashdot" attitude.

The guy was talking about people that CAN'T code, but come off as "nice" and that's why they're hired. I find your implications that the GP poster has a lack of social skills to be incredibly presumptuous. You're reading an entire mountain of information into the post that simply isn't their. Attacking someone based on what they didn't say is the height of dishonesty.

Re:Gee...wonder why?

[syukton]

Until you find this magical job that allows you to be the sole developer on your own project

It isn't that magical. Do independent work on a contract basis building one-off utilities or small websites. Then you're self-employed, which even removes the complication of somebody dumber than you telling you what to do.

Division of labor is actually somewhat a curse in larger organizations though, because you need everyone in the same room in order to really accomplish anything. In a lot of situaitons a project is made out to be much larger than it really is because those involved don't want to put forth a real amount of effort. I know all about this sort of thing; I'm a contractor for a certain loathed-by-slashdotters software company in Redmond, Washington. Division of labor is good when discussed as a concept in CS classes, but is badly implemented by MBAs.

I really, honestly, would rather have 1 single, lonely, friendless coder who can rock my socks and doesn't mind working late because he *likes his work* instead of a whole team of guys who're just there for the paycheque and don't feel passionate about their work and spend most of their time thinking about their (boy/girl)friend/wife/kids/friends/hobbies/car/etc instead of the code in front of them.

Re:Gee...wonder why?

[dbueno]

This isn't college anymore. You don't get to work by yourself. A good coder who can't interact with people is less valuable than a decent coder who can. If you care to notice, you could learn a valuable life lesson here.

I have (generally) found that in many cases those who are good coders but have bad people skills really only have "bad people skills" because they have to deal with (1) terrible programmers on the same project or (2) silly rules they shouldn't have to follow, but have to follow (for whatever reason). It's not that the person has a hard time getting along with anyone, it's that most of the people with whom he interacts (in terms of the given project) have no idea what they're talking about, and this he is disinclined to talk to them, because it is of no use.

Re:Gee...wonder why?

[Mr. Underbridge]

Maybe you should drop the "I know exactly who you are based on one five line post on slashdot" attitude.

I'm going off what he said. He said people who code worse than him but with social skills get jobs. He also said he's been on a lot of interviews, which means a lot of rejections unless he's currently working 8 jobs. Maybe he has great social skills, and codes great, but just got somehow unlucky despite the fact that all these people with less qualifications being hired instead. But I doubt it.

Look, I'm not trying to attack the guy. As a recent (though non-CS) grad who landed a good job off of multiple offers, I believe I understand the value of good academic and people skills. He states clearly that he believes that jobs should be based on "ability", not people skills, and also seems to belittle "good corporate citizens." That attitude generally comes from an unwillingness to work as part of a team, or a lack of understanding regarding how important teamwork is to problem solving at the corporate level. I really don't think that's going too far out on a limb.

Is this part of a full psychiatric evaluation? No. Maybe if the guy comes back, he can enlighten us both. But methinks we have someone who likes to code, is probably quite good at it, and likely has an attitude about it. He's pretty disgruntled, and you don't end up like that with no reason. I think the guy would admit that other grads who don't code as well as him play the corporate game better than he does.

Re:Gee...wonder why?

[Mr. Underbridge]

(1) terrible programmers on the same project

That'll happen. How you respond to it is up to you. But really, I personally wouldn't want how I interacted with that person to screw my chances in a company. If you're talented, you're bound to be surrounded with people (at least some) who aren't as good. There are constructive ways of dealing with that. Condscension or insults aren't a good way.

(2) silly rules they shouldn't have to follow, but have to follow (for whatever reason).

Shit, man, that's called life. My last boss drive me near to the brink of insanity. That's when it's time for deep breathing and/or a beer. Copping an attitude about it isn't a good idea. And often, there are good reasons for things that you don't know about or understand.

It's not that the person has a hard time getting along with anyone, it's that most of the people with whom he interacts (in terms of the given project) have no idea what they're talking about, and this he is disinclined to talk to them, because it is of no use.

Look, I think I know what you mean, and minimizing the fraction of your time that incompetent people waste is NOT "bad people skills." That's "good time management." The idea is to realize they're idiots, but not to allow them to notice this. That means being friendly, trying to help them gently, trying to give them stuff to do that is within their expertise, etc. And it's not like it's their fault if they can't code as well as you. It's not an excuse to be an ass, but it is an excuse to do everything you can so your work doesn't depend on them - preferably without them noticing. That's called playing the game.

Re:Gee...wonder why?

[Vellmont]

I'm going off what he said.

No, you're making stuff up based on re-interpretation of his actual words. Let me demonstrate:

what you think he said:

He said people who code worse than him but with social skills get jobs


what he actually said:

Seriously, I have seen too many HR folks hire people who can't code for shit.


What you think he said:

He also said he's been on a lot of interviews, which means a lot of rejections unless he's currently working 8 jobs.


What he actually said:

Personally I have been on enough interviews to know that you can put anything down on your resume.


Huh. Sounds like you're implying a HELL of a lot based on almost nothing. This bothers me greatly, this distortion of facts.


You said:

He states clearly that he believes that jobs should be based on "ability", not people skills, "

Actually he never said that directly at all. What he said was:

have seen too many HR folks hire people who can't code for shit.

The implications aren't clear, but to me that sounds like he's upset because people skills are put first, and actual ability to code are an after thought. Obviously that's still guesswork, because he never actually made any clear statement about the balance of these skills. I guess I think programming is about actual programming and that should be paramount. People skills are great, but if you can't code, you should be shown the door. I've worked with such a very nice coder before. Everyone liked him. Everyone also knew he was a terrible programmer (and always prefaced the inevidible comments about his poor performance with "I really like him.. but"). He was fired after his contract came up like he should have been.

and also seems to belittle "good corporate citizens.

Well, I don't really know exactly what you or he mean by "good corporate citizens", but to me that just sounds like brainwashed toadies who sing IBM corporate songs and have no soul. But belittling? I didn't hear much of that. I certainly have belittled these people, but the original poster really hasn't. For the record, here's what he said:

They are hired strictly as good team players with good communication skills, who are good corporate citizens.


And you go on...

That attitude generally comes from an unwillingness to work as part of a team, or a lack of understanding regarding how important teamwork is to problem solving at the corporate level. I really don't think that's going too far out on a limb.

Wow, you're so far out on the limb you can't even see the tree anymore. I can't even quote anything the original poster said, because you're just implying all of this from those 5 lines you embellished so greatly.

Is this part of a full psychiatric evaluation?

No, it just pisses me off greatly when people think they know something but they obviously don't. You don't know anything about this guy except a few lines posted on Slashdot, and yet you're willing to fill in all the lines with guesswork details about him.

Re:Gee...wonder why?

[Bullet-Dodger]

I really, honestly, would rather have 1 single, lonely, friendless coder who can rock my socks and doesn't mind working late because he *likes his work* instead of a whole team of guys who're just there for the paycheque and don't feel passionate about their work and spend most of their time thinking about their (boy/girl)friend/wife/kids/friends/hobbies/car/etc instead of the code in front of them.

Well, yeah, people who don't have a life outside of work are probably best for the company. The question is really whether or not you want to be a lonely, friendless coder. Being passionate doesn't mean you have to work 90 hours a week.

Re:Gee...wonder why?

[southpolesammy]

Division of labor is good when discussed as a concept in CS classes, but is badly implemented by MBAs.

The division part is implemented fine -- the problem is in the original assumption by mgmt that one employee = 4 equal 100% parts.

Re:Gee...wonder why?

[Delta Vel]

Speaking of personal attacks...

Re:Gee...wonder why?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Do independent work on a contract basis building one-off utilities or small websites. Then you're self-employed, which even removes the complication of somebody dumber than you telling you what to do.

I hate to break this to you, but if you're going to go self-employed and work as a contractor/consultant type, then soft skills are going to be more important to your work than they would be working in a team for an employer, not less.

Re:Gee...wonder why?

[Vellmont]

No. A personal attack would be me calling you an asshole, loser, rapist, or crook. Attacking what someone actually said is an attack on their ideas, a wholly different animal.

Re:Gee...wonder why?

[fishbot]

"It isn't that magical. Do independent work on a contract basis building one-off utilities or small websites. Then you're self-employed, which even removes the complication of somebody dumber than you telling you what to do."

No, you'd have someone exactly as dumb as you telling you what to do

Re:Gee...wonder why?

[rjshields]

I really, honestly, would rather have 1 single, lonely, friendless coder who can rock my socks and doesn't mind working late because he *likes his work* instead of a whole team of guys who're just there for the paycheque and don't feel passionate about their work and spend most of their time thinking about their (boy/girl)friend/wife/kids/friends/hobbies/car/etc instead of the code in front of them.

I hope I never work for someone with that attitude! My family is far more important than my job, and always will be. I pity those for whom work comes before everything else, for their lives will surely be less fulfilling. Work is something which you do to earn a living. Work to live, don't live to work.

And that person that you hire who enjoys working overtime and has no life outside of work will alienate others in your company because he is a miserable git. Why else would he have no friends and no life? A healthy life outside of works makes people more productive inside work. Happy and fulfilled staff are happy and productive workers.

Re:Gee...wonder why?

[Sproggit]

Actually when you're suggesting 'there' as apposed to 'their' you are assuming they have mistakenly used a possessive pronoun as opposed to an adverb denoting place.

This would indeed be a grammatical error.

Looking at the structure of the sentence it would be more likely correct to infer a simple spelling error.

And I am a CS dropout.

Re:Gee...wonder why?

[JacobO]

And then of course you have to watch out for the lonely, fiendless coder who works 90 hours a week and is still a terrible coder.

They do exist!

Re:Gee...wonder why?

[Mr. Underbridge]

Look, you can be as pissed off as you want. I don't really care. I said I was speaking generally. I never said I know the guy. And I still maintain that if you know anything about human motivation, and possess any logic, you can put together a likely picture from what he said. Doesn't require Sherlock Holmes.

He's been on a lot of interviews. Couldn't tel from what he said, but either he lies in interviews, or feels like all his coworkers do. He's disgruntled against people who he perceives don't code as well as him. He resents people who get by with communication skills as "corporate citizens" without playing the game. You also forget (or conveniently ignore) the part where he was complaining because he feels his CS degree was practically worthless.

Put that together - does that ensemble come from someone who feels their skills are respected? Maybe. I doubt it. Maybe he has great people skills and he'll be in management in a year, but if he did I doubt he'd be so pissed off.

This isn't a court of law, I don't have to pass reasonable doubt.

Re:Gee...wonder why?

[Feztaa]

Then you're self-employed, which even removes the complication of somebody dumber than you telling you what to do.

What, your clients don't tell you what to do? How do you know what they're paying you for?

No, the only way you can make a living without being told what to do by people dumber than you is to buy a large printing press and enter the counterfeiting business.

Re:Gee...wonder why?

[Vellmont]

This isn't a court of law, I don't have to pass reasonable doubt.


What you have is speculation based on the tiniest of information. Reasonable doubt would be near certainty by comparison. Next time try to base your arguments against someone on a bit more fact, and a LOT less imagination.

Re:Gee...wonder why?

[syukton]

My clients don't tell me what to do, they tell me what they want. They give me a spec or describe their problem, they don't give me instructions. I'm paid very specifically to know what to do, to know how to solve the problem undirected.

Biology

[spin2cool]

If you're interested in computational biology or bioinformatics, you'll have it made in either academia or industry. With the genomic revolution looming, people who can apply their knowledge of CS and algorithms to biological/biomedical problems are in HUGE demand.

Feel free to replace biology with biochemistry, molecular biology, or biomedical engineering degrees, as your particular tastes warrant.

Mad Skilz

[ONOIML8]

What ever happened to learning a skill? You ask what kind of degree and I'll ask "what do you want to do?"

In this day and age you're right and I'm wrong. People tend to advance based upon the letters after their name. In my warped mind they should instead advance based upon their mastery of skills.

Silly me.

I am almost done (read 4 classes of gen ed)

[the_2nd_coming]

and I am double majoring in Computer Science and Mathematics. I think that those two go together very well, though that is a much more theoretical and research based relationship.

If you want to use it in an applied way, there may be degrees in computer security which have more of a focus on the CIS side of technology with an emphasis on network security.

a Law degree is always good. We need more tech savvy lawyers.

An MBA, but not just any old MBA

[chris huntley]

As an information systems professor, I sometimes get asked by people what kind of graduate business degree (MBA, MS IS, MSA, ...) goes best with a technical undergraduate degree (mine is systems engineering).

Carnegie Mellon and a few other schools have so-called "Techno-MBA" programs geared to managing technology and technical people. The programs leverage and extend your technical knowledge into the business domain. A plain vanilla MBA won't give you any of that. Why start over when you can use what you can build on what you already know?

Become an expert in a second technical field

[SleezyG]

The people who write Autocad are mechanical engineers who know how to program. The people who write guidance systems are physisists who know how to program. In essence, computer science is the means to solving a large and complex problem that has absolutely nothing to do with computers. Precious few programmers write code for operating systems and device drivers. The rest of us are fed system-level requirements by domain experts, sometimes referred to as "chief engineers" or "bosses."

Become an expert in a second technical field and you'll never go unemployed. Preferably a hard science such as biochemistry instead of another engineering discipline. It's the CompSci majors with no marketable skills beyond C++ and Java who are telling you to learn Hindi.

Foreign language

[Propaganda13]

Foreign languages are helpful. It depends on the company, and where they have offices, plants, or what to expand.

I've debated learning Mandarin based on the possibility of China's future impact on the market.

a Foriegn language - preferably chineese or Hindi

[MerlynEmrys67]

You will be working there soon enough anyway - might as well speak the language

A lawyer is a Dr.

[glrotate]

Juris Doctor

If you have to ask, you're not ready

[ediron2]

For a while after finishing college, you feel drawn back to the college life. Be sure you're not going back just because it's comfortable. If you don't even care if you're gonna become a manager, head-geek, marketdroid, tech-writer, tech-law guru or whatever (what *Degree* depends on your answer to that question), you're seriously not prime for grad school.

One friend's dad offered to pay for her grad school completely after she'd worked 5 years. Wise man: she's never looked back.

Another friend, the smartest science/tech student in years at my high school, stopped with a BS, moved to Silicon Valley, and says she'd literally *fall behind* in her field if she left work for 1-3 years. I kind of doubt this, since she could nail additional courses in her area as they paralleled her work until the degree sorta just plopped in her lap one day. She publishes enough. She studies and learns new stuff enough. But the degree also stopped mattering to anyone she knows *years* ago.

Another friend nailed a triple major, which took him longer than the rest of us. It didn't gain him any of the cash or glamour he bragged he'd get. That's some serious money wasted.

My own take is that graduate work should wait until you start finding something really compelling to become gods-own-expert in. Let me say it again: if you don't even care if you're gonna become a manager, head-geek, marketdroid, tech-writer, tech-law guru or whatever (what *Degree* depends on your answer to that question), you're seriously not prime for grad school. Take a class or two. Or just dive into some side project to gain some focus: pick a subset from that list of career paths and find a way to get experience in it.

I did some grad courses, and exited because it was clear that I wasn't sure what I wanted to do yet, and figured if I was going to become a PhD, it had better be in something I gave a rat's-ass about.

Ten years later, I'm fairly certain what that might be. If I weren't having so much fun with work, wife, kids, life in general, I'd probably go back. Once the kids aren't a delightful distraction, I'll start picking an ideal college/mentor or three to contact and apply to.

Caveat: grad degrees are candy: I approve, but I don't preach 'em. OTOH, Bachelor's degrees are not optional IMHO: they're a 2-way vaccine: at some point not having one can kill your career advancement; and they're used by employers as a yardstick. Doesn't apply to you, doesn't matter here, but it's a big deal to me: I've seen a few friends really hurt by not having BS behind their name (usually happens pretty late in life). Mileage may vary and that's my humble opinion and the value-of-a-degree subject has been hammered to death on /.

Re:If you have to ask, you're not ready

[Kope]

I'd say I really disagree with this.

As someone who does a lot of hiring (my department went from 35 to 70 people in the last year), and who has a very good view of what allows people to succeed, I think grad school is a very good indicator of job performance.

But it's not the tech degree I'm looking to see. I want to see a grad degree in a field that demands people to think in a variety of ways. BSc. in Comp Sci is a dime a dozen in any major city.

Pair that with a MA in philosophy, theology, history, linguistics, sociology . . . anything that is vastly different from the comp. sci. degree.

Why?

Because those people are going to have a broad range of problem solving skills and are going to be able to understand when technical issues should be subordinated to other considerations. They'll also, after a few years, be the guys that I'll really listen too when they knock on my door to say that the suits are going to really screw the pooch if we don't push the techniical issue on this one.

That doesn't mean that you should just pick an advanced degree and go for it if you have no passion for the field. But if you have something that interests you, go for it.

From A Former Academic Advisor...

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Do something you're interested in (good advice from many other posters). 1) Easier to do; 2)Easier to do good in something you enjoy than to struggle with something you dislike.

2. If you want to teach, you need at least a Master's. Dept chairs have to manage their faculty degree ratios, so the "higher" your degree, the more useful you are. Otherwise, I wouldn't focus so much on levels.

3. If research interests you, then the M.S. -> PhD in compsci is the path.

4. The most useful course I ever took: Business Law (yes, I slept through English comp...). In just about every job I've had in 25+ professional years, I've had to know something about contracts and contract law. Even in the technical jobs, you're typically working on one end or the other of a contract, so it is extremely helpful to know how your work is directed. This advice would push preference to business degrees, but see #1 first.

5. It's not about the degree, it's about what you do with it. Your most valuable asset is the package you present to employers, and I'm not talking about diplomas. Your ability to think, communicate, and execute are formost on the minds of folks who have to rely on you to do their work. Use the experience of pursuing a degree to enhance your ability to think, communicate and execute. I know tons of folks with paper who have a hard time getting through the day, because they focused on the paper and not the experience behind it.

Do what you enjoy and excel at

[plcurechax]

My personal view is that you should be true to yourself first. Not for any feel-good metaphysical reasons, but to avoid work being constant dudgery and more important avoid stress, high blood pressure, depression or other health conditions that may be caused by your work/job/career.

What Should I Do with My Life? by Po Bronson is worth a read if only to make you stop and think about what is personally important to you. Success is a personal goal, on your deathbed you will not give a toss about what other people (the general public, co-workers; I don't mean family or close friends) think of you, but how you feel about yourself.

There is no sense of starting an MBA if it is not you. Of course education is to get you the skills and knowledge to get an entry level job (above mail room boy and coat check girl hopefully) from which you will derive experience which is what hirinig managers really like to see on a resume.

MLIS

[LoFat ByLine]

It's not for everyone, but a Master's in Library/Information Studies could lead to interesting things, eg. systems librarian at a university. The field desperately needs more professionals with IT experience/abilities, and there's a real opportunity to make a difference since we'll be working through the impact of new technologies for the foreseeable future.

Pay's not that great, but there's a decent amount of job security. Plenty of opportunities for advancement coming up as the boomers start to retire.

Somthing with chicks and fun.

[Kingpin]

Have fun. It won't matter in the long run what you do.

Re:Three Letters: MBA

[Martin Spamer]

Five years ago I would have agreed with you. However today, given the way things are moving, it has to be law.

Re:Three Letters: MFA

[teknomage1]

Studies now say that Master of Fine Arts (MFA) is the new MBA since the current opinion is that creativity can't be taught. SO to be hip and trendy get an MFA!

Music!

[catdevnull]

I've found my music composition degree to be most useful for working creatively with set theory. I wouldn't recommend a full 4 year degree in music composition or theory, but perhaps getting one's feet wet with basic theory and practice would use help turn that corpus callosum into a high-speed highway.

Sorry, but I HAVE to say it...

[Teechur007]

How about "Women's Studies?" :)

Hmm

[Erwos]

Whatever you're interested in. The exact degree makes zero difference, as long as it's not theatre or something.

I got (am getting, to be precise - finishing the one last course this semester) a BS in CS and Economics. I got into econ because I liked it, but it's got elements of business and statistics in it - quite handy as a supporting major.

I would also suggest that intelligent extra-currics can be good, too. I was an active officer of my LUG for a few years, and it was instrumental in getting me my current (and awesome) job. ACM and AWC are similarly good - they help you network, and that's handy as hell.

-Erwos

hate to be serious but...

[AndyGasman]

Where i work our dream softie is someone with a ComSci and an ElecEng degree, though we do more embeded software. I recon ComSci and pure maths would be a good one for high brow software ;) or an ComSci and MBA for business systems.

If you want to know the 'why', try philosophy.

[cameroon33]

Better to know you aren't marketable (Philosophy), than mistakenly think you are (MBA).

Something that you derive pleasure from.

[jbum]

I got my degree in Music. If your goal is to make a lot of money and retire early, this is not the degree for you, and I am not recommending it for you. However, I am quite happy with my choice of degree.

I would suggest you choose a program that interests and excites you, and completely ignore the financial aspects (unless that is what interests and excites you).

I ultimately ended up going into computer programming. I am completely self taught. My lack of a degree has never been a huge problem.

Since the age of 30, I've been able to work on jobs that are fun and that I derive significant pleasure from. There are other jobs that pay more, but it's not worth it to me if I will be unhappy. Being happy is more important than being rich.

I'm now 42. I'm not a millionaire, but I live comfortably - I have enough. Most importantly, I'm very happy, and I often drive to work with a big shit-eating grin on my face.

This happiness is my most valuable asset - it helps me to get new jobs when I need them (because people like to work with happy people) and it is significantly more valuable than my degree.

Poli Sci... not just for policy wonks

[mertzman]

I know a few people here at my university who are dual majors in CS and Political Science. At first it seemed like an odd combination, but it works quite well both in terms of academics and employment prospects.

Political Science classes tend to be pretty flexible in terms of managing writing and reading assignments, so they mesh good with the more deadline-intensive CS projects. Since Poli Sci tends to emphasize writing, its also a good major to build your language skills with. (Not to mention, a political theory class with a unit on Machiavelli has priceless potential when its lessons are applied in the workplace!)

In terms of employment, there are a ton of opportunities in academia, business, and government. There's a surprisingly large demand for techies in political research, as things like polls often require lots of customized code to carry out statistical analyses. Then there's the government potential... a Poli Sci degree is a ticket into many government agencies, and combined with Comp Sci, you bring useful and much needed tech skills... (you'd be especially well suited if you wanted to go down that whole secret agent CIA/NSA/FBI sort of route).

Similarly, Sociology or Psychology also work well with CS from what I've heard, for many of the same reasons. So definitely don't overlook the social sciences as an option.

Re:Poli Sci... not just for policy wonks

[Velvus]

Actually I have my SC bsc and am now doing my master Sociology and depending on your previous fields of interests in SC it could be just the field of specialization you've been looking for. Plus employers definately value 2 degrees in different disciplines.

Law

[tsotha]

Law. The coming years will be happy hunting for lawyers with technical backgrounds as companies savage each other in patent wars.

Psychiatry...

[jwiegley]

If you also get a graduate degree in psyciatry then you can provide yourself therapy to help cope with all the idiots out there that don't have aclue about the level of expertise or value of the skills you learned for your first degree.

Project Management

[AyeAyeAye]

I'm surprised no one said project mgmt yet. Some day, maybe you'll want to have a broader impact. I'd say MBA is overrated and anyway certainly not the best next step after development. You're a good techie. Now learn to plan, lead and deliver (read: get a team to deliver). Get a degree in PM. It won't teach you everything you need to know to be a good PM but that, with technical skills, and, most importantly, people skills will get you a long way.

Speak-o da Language-o

[numindast]

What goes well with any bachelor of science? A degree in English. OH /my/ GAWSH! An ENGINEER who can WRITE! To be serious, though, if you can write decently, having a degree in this is a true door opener. I feel fortunate to have grown up with a knack for good writing skills, and it has made available to me a number of very interesting opportunities. The downside, of course, is that you may get pegged for technical writing. I once spent six months documenting a custom software program and writing a User's Guide in prep for public "out of box" release. Ugh. I learned then just how horrible MS Word is for large documents and will never use it again.

thank you

[Brigadier]

most good MBA programs will not accept a candidate unless they have 5 plus years of expereince. There is a reason for this. Ideally I say get your degree in CS then find a job. Decide a.) if you liek the field and want to continue in it. and b.) do you wish to move up in managment. Keep in mind most managers don't actually program just manage programers. The biggest complaint i've heard from managers is that after moving up in the managment wrongs they rarely get to do what they love. so choose wisely.

Even though i'm not in the field I've always got the impression programmers who have a math background are worth their weight in gold.

Patent law...

[sillivalley]

At the risk of inciting a flame war, if you can write, I'd suggest law school, and more specifically, patent law. There's a lack of people who understand technical aspects of computer science and software, and can write about it. Damn computers are everywhere -- software and software-enabled inventions are becoming more and more prominent.

(My original degrees are in computer science and physics; went back after a decade or so for the law degree. Spent the weekend hacking python to turn router logs into something more useful.)

Library school

[caveat lector]

You won't make the world's greatest salary, but you'll work with the world's greatest people -- AND you'll be on the side of the angels in the fight against corporate domination of the information universe.

Join the librarians! You'll be glad you did. Even in spite of the Michael Gormans of the world.

get a job instead

[Paleolithic]

The time you spent in school could be spent learning on the job. If you are having trouble finding a job, then take a low-level entry level job to get started.

As for learning, keep reading books at a pace of about 1 per month.

--
Paleolithic

CS majors can sit for the USPTO bar exam

[ahbi]

No, the USPTO allows CS people to sit for the Patent Bar now. It is a Category A degree now. Of course, previously you could petition your way in under Category B.

I certainly wouldn't waste my time in law school unless I could sit for the USPTO exam (or your land's equivalent).

This is the F'ing toughest exam I have ever taken. Makes the state bar look like a cake walk. Also no law school classes help you with this. Not even the Patent Law class. I suggest (and YMMV) you take the exam after you clerk and have some experience with the procedures of the PTO.

Typical question:
Using the non-searchable PDF of the Manual of Patent Examination Procedure (a Yellow Pages telephone book sized document). Below are 5 sentences from the MPEP. We have added the word "not" to four of these sentences. Which sentence did we not alter?

Also, while it doesn't matter for CS & EEs, if you are going into the BioMed area, many inventors don't want to talk to you unless you have a PhD or Med degree.

Re:CS majors can sit for the USPTO bar exam

[pappy97]

We know it's been category A, but there is ONE exception: Your undergrad must have met a specific accreditation requirement. Check out the general requirements bulletin of the USPTO exam if you don't believe me.

This doesn't affect most people, but a friend of mine went to undergrad at a small state school in Missouri which was NOT accredited. She discovered in law school that she wouldn't be allowed to sit for the patent bar, and ever since law school has been working in a COMPLETELY non-related field. In fact she never uses anything related to Comp Sci in line of legal work.

Business degree

[ESarge]

I'm a New Zealander and did a conjoint BSc/BCom in Computer Science and Operations Management. Conjoint means that I did 2 degrees in 4 years (most NZ Bachelor's degrees take 3 years).

I did a BCom (Bachelor of Commerce) because I felt it would help me understand business a whole lot better than a science degree. So far I've been proved right - being able to talk to business people in their terms and convert that back to the realm of software is a very lucrative skill.

Look at the sort of employers you might have.

[RealAlaskan]

I would really enjoy the sort of work that the quant finance people do. I've got lots of graduate training in Stats and Econometrics, and a bit of numerical programming way back in my past, and I'd be a shoe-in for it.

I talked with a big employer, and found that the working conditions were foul. Everyone was working 60 to 70 hours per week, and the talk in the office was: ``How's your divorce going?'' and: ``Have you heard from your ex?''. They were looking for someone to work on inflation forcasting, value at risk, and so on. Neat problems, and the reources to solve them, but you couldn't have a life.

For me, quant finance is right out because the cultural expectations make for toxic workplaces. That's really a pity.

When you're evaluating a career, one of the most important things to look at is where could you work? Which employers, and in which places? Would you want to work for that company, in that place? Would you be happy working there long enough to make the years of school worthwhile? If you're thinking about something like quant finance, how long could the money make up for the other aspects of the job?

Pro M.S.

[Seanasy]

No, I'm not advocating becoming a Microsoft shill. Check out the various Professional Master of Science programs. Think of it as an MBA for scientists. There's a wide range of disciplines and, best of all, not thesis.

MIS Degree

[Zakir]

MIS or Management of Information Systems. This will give you more of the business part of it, but still keeping it mostly technical. and some certifications....

Re:J.D. Patent Lawyer IAMAPL

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have a comp sci degree with some EE or experience in the hardware world its more like top-50. Patent law is split between the megafirms and boutiques right now with the megafirms swallowing the small shops at a very fast pace. Megafirms are a bit stricter in their hiring standards, small places may be founded by an attorney from a lower tier schoool and hire heavily from that school. Salarywise there isn't much of a difference (with bonuses there is).
Even if you don't have EE skills there is still a market for people who understand computer languages/protocols. It may mean that you spend months reverse engineering firmware or reading design specs at first.
To answer some other posters, you don't have to take the patent bar unless you plan to prosecute patents,
attention to detail is the most important asset in law school (the B types are the ones that get summa).

Electronics

[Zone-MR]

How about Electronics then? You know how to write great code - but how about combining this ability with some in-depth hardware knowledge in order to design the next killer gadget?

Well, what do you want to do?

[mhteas]

You ask which additional degree you should get. But you don't say what you're interested in. That's like trying to pick a highway without knowing what city you want to go to.

Get an MBA if you're interested in business and want to advance to management.

Get a Masters if you want to be hyper-technical.

Get a Physics degree if you want to design computing systems in nanotech.

And get a clue that in the end knowledge counts more than degrees. That's why they're not asking for Masters degrees.

Just follow my 7 step program...

[quarkscat]

(1) Computer Science degree
(2) Law degree (preferably patent)
(3) MBA
(4) ???
(5) profit
(6) corporate boardroom
(7) really, really profit!

agreed

[ArbitraryConstant]

With compsci + MBA, you'll have headhunters tracking you down because they heard about you from someone else.

Not that I have either (close to a comp sci degree). I just know people that do.

Re:agreed

[Arimatheus]

Headhunters? Rofl, you haven't looked for work in a while, have you? IMO: Headhunters are a rightfully dying breed.

Re:agreed

[ArbitraryConstant]

The price of oil has done wonders for the Calgary economy.

Physics

[DiracFeynman]

I'd have to say that a physics degree will compliment that B.S in comp sci quite nicely. IMO no other program gives you such problem solving skills. Many who get their B.S in Physics end up going to medical school, law, and business.

BS in Education

[olcrazypete]

The biggest computer networks in most areas are located in the public school system, but in Georgia at least, you usually have to have a degree in Education to land many of the available jobs. It's not the highest paying jobs out there, but its very stable, lots of bandwidth, good benifits, and not too much pressure (you get to go home and not think about work, if you so choose!)
P

Best Degree ? How about LAW degree?

[softcoder]

Since patent infringement and defenses against suits related to it, seem to be the business model of the future for software firms, how about a Law degree?

Think Different(ly)

[eric.t.f.bat]

A writing degree. Professional writing, journalism, editing, anything like that. Stack it heavily with the sort of courses that teach you how to find your way around punctuation (other than != and :: and $_=~/^$/; and the like...).

Functional literacy is rarer than you'd think, even among uni grads. A programmer who can communicate in human language is a valuable thing -- I'm one, and I've rarely been out of work since almost graduating 15 years ago, so I think I can say this with authority.

And lest you think you'll be dumped in the corner to write (ugh!) documentation, don't worry. There are other things you can do that will be less onerous. Programs have error messages and user interfaces, and you don't have to search far to find really, really ugly uses of human language in these. You can be the saviour! Go for it.

4 years real-world first

[nottsp1]

Wait a couple years on the MBA if you are fresh outa college.

Indeed. MBA's are generally considered most useful if you have had some real world experience. Lots of UK Uni's wont even let you enroll for an MBA unless you've worked full time for up to 4 years.

I'm sort of trapped too, so make sure its something that will benefit your future. I have a BA in GIS and an M.Sc in I.T Management and currently work selling chickens. True story.

Law Degree

[PiasBrick]

Having a C.S. degree, you'd reach double to quadruple your salary if you can last going back to school for another 3 years full time. Most of the people who word in Trademark and Copyright law don't even know what the technology does that they're trying to protect. Of course, being that this is an Open Source Website, this recommendation kind of goes against the purpose of the venue we are using to communicate :-(

Martha?

[refactored]

Martha Stewart, is that you? Are you allowed to post on the 'net yet?

How long do you think you are going to stay out of trouble this time?

Re:Martha?

[renehollan]

Form 8833.

1 a) Treaty Country: Canada (Germany)
b) Articles XXV.2 (Germany 24.1)

2 Internal Revenue Code provisions overruled: 7701(b)(a)(A), 7701(b)(1)(A)(ii), 7701(b)(3).

5. Explain.

U.S. non-resident Canadian citizen is ordinarily required to meet the substantial presence test to file 1040 on world-wide income. U.S. non-resident German nationals are not required to meet substantial presence test to file 1040 on world-wide income, by virtue of U.S.-German Tax Treaty Article 24.1 which relieves German nationals from suffering more burdensome requirements or tax than U.S. citizens in similar circumstances. Article XXV.2 of the U.S.-Canada Tax Treaty relieves U.S. non-resident Canadian citizens from suffering more burdensome requirements or tax than nationals of another country with which the U.S. has a tax treaty, i.e. Germany. Thus, taxpayer takes a position under the U.S.-Canada Tax Treaty Article XXV.2 that relieves him from having to meet the substantial presence test before filing 1040. Taxpayer thus elects to be taxed on world-wide income for 2003.

The intended benefit to taxpayer is that eligible moving expenses related to an employment move from U.S. to Canada in 2003 were likely to be paid in 2004 and not reimbursed by Canadian employer. Taxpayer seeks to ensure the deductibility of these moving expenses in 2004 by subjecting the related earned income to U.S. tax, avoiding dual taxation by means of offsetting foreign tax credits.

Phbbbbbtttt!!!

The bottom line is that a Canadian citizen can file a U.S. 1040 return anytime they want to. Sometimes it is beneficial to do so, even if not required.

Re:Martha?

[BoRictor]

A ltitle late on the follow up to this but....
I have had to file in both the US and Canada when I moved back after a couple of dot-bomb experiences. I did file a 1040 in the US but I met the substantial presence test by a few days.
But what it looks like you are saying is that you can file a 1040 irregardless of the substantial presence clause based on the fact that you can claim moving expenses? I don't see how this helps you unless you actually have said moving expenses. Unless you are saying you should file a false return?

Re:Martha?

[renehollan]

No, I had those moving expenses. Everything I (and my accountant) did was quite legitimate.

Furthermore, the moving expenses had nothing to do with my ability to file a 1040 -- that was due to the U.S.-Canada tax treaty. However, the moving expenses made it worthwhile to take the treaty position.

On a 1040, one can claim moving expenses in the year one actually paid them (within limits), if they are related to a move for employment reasons that meets the time and distance tests (i.e. long enough on the job, and far enough away from one's old home) and the income from that employment is subject to tax for a sufficient period of time in the year it is earned and possibly the next (which, in my case, was entirely the year before I paid the moving expenses -- I made that income from that job subject to tax in 2003, but used the FEIE to exclude it in 2004, when I met the SPT, but elected to file full-year resident instead of dual-status (mostly to file jointly with my wife and deduct Canadian mortgage interest and property taxes against U.S. income)). See what I mean about accounting hacks? :-)

As I did not meet the substantial presence test in 2003 (but did in 2004), I could not ordinarily claim the moving expenses related to the job in Canada that I paid the year after the move (2004) because I was not taxed on the income in the U.S. An American would be taxed on the income (because Americans are taxed on world-wide income, always), could claim a credit for foreign taxes paid, and then deduct the moving expenses the following year, when they were actually paid.

The Canada-U.S. tax treaty has provisions that Canadians can not be subject to harsher requirements or greater taxation than Americans in similar circumstances. The harsher requirement was that I meet the substantial presence test before the Canadian income was subject to U.S. tax. I took an Article XXV.2 treaty positiion on form 8833 to have my world-wide income subject to U.S. tax in 2003, making the moving expenses paid in 2004 related to the move for that job deductible against 2004 income in the U.S.

Now, I took a foreign tax credit, on form 1116, for the foreign (i.e Canadian) taxes paid, so I was not taxed twice (otherwise the whole exercise would be pointless). The way that works is that one's U.S. tax liability is prorated on the basis of how much of the income was foreign (in each of several categories: general (wages), interest, capital gains, etc.) -- in my case about 80%. The lesser of that fraction of total tax owed and the actual foreign tax paid in each of those categories is then credited against the U.S. tax liability. When most of the income is foreign and the foreign taxes are higher than U.S. tax, there is no net tax owing to the U.S. (I actually got a small refund because I could claim the refundable U.S. additional child tax credit for my American born son!).

I was careful to use an accountant: the idea of subjecting some $50k of income to tax, when one doesn't have to, and then using some foreign tax credit magic to make the tax liability go poof again, is a little unnerving: what if the income is accepted for tax, but the credit denied? In particular, the form 8833 treaty position disclosure is tricky because it involves a second tax treaty between the U.S. and Germany: a German national non resident in the U.S. can not be made to pay greater U.S. tax or meet harsher requirements than a U.S. citizen in similar circumstances. So, a German in Canada could take a U.S.-German Article 24.1 non-discrimination clause treaty position to be taxed as an American. The U.S.-Canada tax treaty Article XXV.2 states that a Canadian not resident in the U.S. can not be made to pay any greater U.S. tax or meet harsher requirements than any other national of a country with which the U.S. has a tax treaty with a non-discrimination clause, i.e. Germany. Ta da! And here you though stack frame buffer overflow exploits were 31337.

I wouldnt've bothered if the movi

Re:Martha?

[BoRictor]

Wow. Thanks for the lesson in US/Canada tax law. :)

That is a very interesting and inventive way to claim your moving expenses. I wish I had thought of that but looking back on it my moving expenses were about 1/4 of what you had so it wouldn't have made much difference to me.

Kudos to you for playing the system. I applaud you!

Re:Martha?

[renehollan]

Hold your applause until I get my refund. I would not be surprised to be audited.

There is a question of whether I had to make a treaty claim in 2004 as well, in order to use the FEIE, or if the treaty claim in 2003 to be taxed as an American would, and the election to be taxed as a full-year resident in a dual-status year for 2004 is sufficient.

Re:Martha?

[renehollan]

Actually, my moving expenses were about three times that amount, but the bulk of them were paid by my Canadian employer in 2003, and so I could not claim them.

In fact, some of those reimbursed expenses were not eligible as far as the IRS was concerned, so I was careful to take them into 2003 income as appropriate. I also had such inelegible moving expenses in 2004, but because they were not reimbursed, they were not taxable. Neither could I deduct them, though.

Re:Obligatory: You actually need a BA!

[mp3phish]

Not too ironic...

The MBA is still going to McDonalds... He must not be rich.

You don't "matriculate" into jobs like that!

[aquarian]

You speak as if getting these degrees automatically "qualifies" you for a career in patent law. The fact is this is just a foot in the door. Many people get that foot in the door, only to fall on their face because they lack the *talent* it takes to be a patent lawyer worthy of the kind of pay you're hearing about.

Software Engineering

[psykocrime]

Really, it depends on your career goals. But have you considered Software Engineering?

Only 1 Bachelors

[jminne]

You can only get one undergraduate degree. After that it's all graduate school. A double major is still one undergrad degree.

And die in Irak

[hsoft]

Enough said.

Re:And die in Irak

[Master Bait]

Indeed. It takes a certain individual to take advantage of that path. Don't forget, it is the National Guard and Reserves who are doing most of the dying in Iraq.

Best degree to pair with a comp sci degree?

[rajdash]

Hmmm. Why not pick something that interests you. As someone with 27 years programming experience, lets just say that money isn't everything. Nevertheless, I've had a hard time getting full-time computer work for over 3 years (at least in Canada; I get offers to the States but can't move just yet). So I'm now preparing to beef up my math background with a BA Math, MSc Applied Math, and hopefully a PhD Applied Math.

On the other hand, there are several combinations that would make you very marketable:

Masters of Technology - similar to an MBA but specifically geared to technology companies

Law degree - Computer Law is sorely lacking in knowledgeable people. Look what's going on with the US Patent Office. Ridiculous patents are being granted for "algorithms" that belong to Mathematics, not to some powerful conglomerate. Once upon a time, patents couldn't be granted for techniques in the public domain. So why has that changed?

Electrical Engineer - You just might become the creator of the next CPU design.

Human Kinetics - Computers will never go away. How we use them might. So design input devices that suit our physiology makes great sense. Let's get rid of poorly designed laptops, please.

Geography degree - maybe you'd enjoy pairing your Comp Sci degree with digital mapping and Geographic Information Systems (GIS). Geographical analysis for business and government use has been increasing steadily since the mid-80s. GIS has many, many applications. While you do not need a full Geography degree to use or even design a GIS, knowing geographical/mapping terms, spherical projections, etc., is quite useful.

For those of you with a strong creative bent, pair up your Comp Sci with:

Fine Arts - ever consider being a digital illustrator/ animator? Our Canadian arts colleges seem to have most of our grads snapped up by Disney and other American companies

Music - Electronic composers are making a name for themselves on TV shows like CSI, CSI:Miami, and CSI:NY, amongst others. Unfortunately, it's not that easy to get into this biz, nor in computer game music. (Check out the Los Angeles Institute of Music's distance course "Music for the Media" at www.musicforthemedia.com.)

Don't Sweat It

[lokismet]

I wouldn't sweat choosing a specific degree program unless you are truly passionate about that program. Apply to a variety of programs that interest you and see where you are accepted. Then choose the one that interests you the most. However, be sure that your choice keeps you in the thick of something interesting and hard. Doing anything because of what outsiders feel is a good match is a bad idea. Moreover, your choice of degree will probably have little to do with your ultimate career (unless you get the Ph.D.) I got a B.S. in math. Then I didn't know what to do with myself, so I got a Master's degree in math. Then I still didn't know what to do, so I started a Ph.D. My biggest regret was that I took a part-time job at a reseach lab because I felt it would 'compliment' my Ph.D. The job and degree program both screwed me, and I took a job as a computer programmer.

As far as getting an MBA goes. I went back to school and just finished mine. It was a great decision, because I did it for all the right reasons. Specifically, I wanted to do it for me and not because it fell under someone's version of 'proper fit'

MBA, or MS in Computer Science or BS English

[SumDog]

Just because no jobs require an MS in CS doesn't mean it won't help. I personally plan to get one becasue I want to teach Computer Science. I guess if you don't plan on teaching, it might not be that big a help.

Certification (Sun/Java, Red Hat, etc) will help a lot.

If you want to move up into managment, I'd suggest an MBA and if you'd like to get jobs doing more documentation, presentations, technical writing, etc. an English or Technical Writing undergrad might be a good idea too.

Looking through this post, I think all my choices are weighted for what I want to do: teach Comptuer Science and/or write magazine articles and technical documentation.

You really need to custom taylor your post-grad education to what you really want to do.

-Sumit

Easy answer

[PhotoGuy]

That's an easy one. You want to go in the programming business? (There's the first hint.) I would highly recommend Commerce. Unless you are able to find an esoteric niche where you are working on rocket science stuff in a think tank or such, you are most likely to be dealing with real business needs, in a real business world. And understanding business concepts and rationale, will make you far more valuable than any other discipline.

I had become quite familiar with computers and programming by the time I hit university, so mixed a bunch of computer science courses, with a Bachelor of Commerce. Best move I ever made. I think part of the decision was influenced by working (during my high school days) with some pure C.S. graduates, who didn't have much of a clue about the real world.

There are so many business concepts that are lost on people with some basic training in the area. For example, the concept of "sunk costs" (excuse me if my terminology is rusty); it doesn't matter what you have invested in a given attempt; it solely matters what the incremental cost involved in that approach and your other alternatives at hand. (That is, it doesn't matter that you've sunk a ton of resources into an effort; if there's an alternative that is incrementally easier than finishing your original attempt, don't be sentimental!) That's a fairly fundamental concept in business, but not necessarily outside of that realm. I've seen more than one disaster due to the thought that "well, we have so much invested in this approach, we can't change now..." even when there was a far better (and often open source) alternative that would have been a better solution to solve the need at hand. Other concepts such as present value/future value, annuities, and so on, really do help one make better programming decisions and design in the business world.

It's paid off for me a thousand times over, and I expect it to continue to do so.

As a close second, I would recommend psychology; computers interact with people, and in my opinion, do so in ways that could be drastically better if programmers had a better foundation in human psychology. (And this does actually overlap with business, to a certain degree.)

-d

three other letters

[gad_zuki!]

HCI.

What happend to enjoying your job?

[jbrandv]

I suggest getting some education in an area you are already interested in. i.e. hobbies, sports, geology, cars, whatever. You can then use your skills to apply the CS degree to the other area, what ever that may be.
You will be MUCH more valuable to employers in that specific field than any generic degree. Plus you end up enjoying your job so much more!

Consider the ethics first

[Anthony Liguori]

A good patent lawyer doesn't simply tell their client whether something is patentable. A good patent lawyer finds a way to make whatever their client brings them patentable in the broadest way possible.

If you have any doubts about how well the patent system works, this job is not for you. It's very much like a typically defense lawyer. Your job is to get the person the lightest sentence possible regardless of crime with faith in the fact that the system in general will work regardless of your abilities.

I'm not making a judgement about how well the system works or doesn't work. Just pointing out that you should consider this before you pursue this path.

And for what it's worth, dealing with IP lawyers has been the most pleasant lawyer-related experience I've had. Extremely bright people.

Four Letters.

[refactored]

RTFM.

For some reason CS degrees don't actually require you to do this.

Re:Four Letters.

[sp0rk173]

Because most CS majors really should have gotten a degree in business instead of CS. They think, for some odd reason, a CS degree is a way to make lots and lots of money after they graduate. Most don't actually care about the topic they're being taught. Those that do tend to go into grad school and eventually do research solving interesting problems, as the idea of being stuck behind a cubicle for the rest of their life debugging their company's accounting software that was written by monkeys in FORTRAN isn't a very attractive option...and who really wants to be a sys admin?

Or the good ones develop games.

HCI/Human Factors/Usability

[pertinax18]

I would say something that trains you in user interface design, usability and related topics. For example a dual major with Communications with a Focus in HCI. Too many programmers these days have NO IDEA what their users really want, they design for themselves. A good HCI education is the first step towards that goal.

The government is hiring...

[WeaverBen]

Loads of good suggestions so far, but if you don't want to get experience or become an accountant or... you might consider adding a few courses in computer security or even getting a criminal justice degree. Homeland Security is hiring computer security people, last I heard, and there is a strong demand for people who understand computer forensics (though police departments don't have Homeland's budget!).

MY three letters: BFA

[tverbeek]

After several years doing the sorts of jobs one gets with a bachelors in Comp Sci, I went back to college with a different approach: I went to art school. This didn't come out of nowhere; I'd always liked art. But I'd become fascinated with computers in high school, and since then had been nuturing mostly the left side of my brain. Going to art school gave me a chance to more fully develop the right side as well.

I figured that it might also help me professionally, since I'd be a one-person web-site-designing-and-coding powerhouse. Maybe, but after the dot-bubble burst, no one was interested. So if you're asking what combo would be the most profitable, a BFA ain't the answer. But if you're asking what you might get the most enrichment out of, it might be.

My suggestion is to think back to whatever your second choice would have been back when you were a picking a major your freshman year, and get a bachelor's degree in that.

How about geography

[briancnorton]

Ok, stop laughing. No seriously, stop.

Geography is a functional area in which you can make EXTREMELY good use of CS skills, applying them to solving sophisticated complex problems rather than just punching out code. Geospatially aware software is a huge and growing market, and it can pay VERY VERY well. Take for instance that the #2 software provider (next to MS) to the federal government is ESRI, a GIS company.

plus, geography chicks are HOT.

School of Hard Knocks

[nhtshot]

If you already have a Bachelor's degree and feel that you need to enhance your "marketability", perhaps you need to consider revisiting reality. If you're having trouble finding a job with a 4-year degree, what makes you think you'll have better luck with another one? You need to spend some time in the workforce and develop some practical experience. I guarantee THAT will help your "marketability".

Here's the reason

[VeneficusAcerbus]

If you know multiple languages *well*, that means your mind can shift from one language to another and you can think in either language. That same skill is used when you try to explain something to a non-technical person (read: boss).

You need a BS in Hindu

[sl4shd0rk]

Coupled with your CS degree, that will tell future employers know you know what your doing, and the two degrees will tell them you will take it up the ass for nickles and still be a team player. The BS in Hindu will come in handy on your second interview since you will need to go overseas to find employment. Have a marvelous time, see you on Monster.

why?

[austad]

Does anyone look at degrees anymore? Honestly, from what I've seen in IT, it's experience that matters, not education.

I've interviewed guys with degrees and tons of certifications that couldn't hold a candle to some of the guys that never attended college.

Unless it's from a school with prestige, such as MIT, I don't think a degree really helps you get a job or move up the ladder. It's all about what you've learned while working that makes a difference.

Major in any biology, but minor in CS

[Seoulstriker]

Unlike what is suggested by the parent, you don't "pick up" a little bit of molecular biology, or bioinformatics, or computational biology. The focus of your studies should be in studying the biology and then dabbling in a little bit of CS. Hell, I'm doing computational biology research and datamining bacterial genomes, and you hardly even need to know how to develop applications. I've primarily been doing scripting in PERL, and I'm trying to pick up a little python. If you know the fundamentals of programming, you don't even need to take a CS course.

If you're not motivated to do the biology coursework behind bioinformatics, you will not get anywhere in your career. Labs want people who can code a bit, not people who understand the fundamentals of designing operating systems. Mathematics, statistics, and scripting will get you farther than CS and a bit of bio will ever get you. Choose wisely.

Re:Major in any biology, but minor in CS

[CharlesEGrant]

Labs want people who can code a bit, not people who understand the fundamentals of designing operating systems. Mathematics, statistics, and scripting

Yes and no. Knowing a little perl is terrifically useful for bench people, but if you are working on shrink-wrap software or even programs for general use by the biological community issues of software engineering and algorithmic efficiency become important. The exciting thing about computational biology is that it is the meeting point of 3 vast edifices of technology: molecular biology, statistical inference, and computer science. It works best if the biologists recognize how little they now about computer science, the computer scientists recognize how little they know about biology, and both recognize how little they know about statistical inference.

MPC

[dtsammons]

I have a Bachelor of Science degree in Computer Science and recieved a Masters of Professional Communication degree from Westminster College in Salt Lake City, UT. My masters degree has paid for itself many times over. In my experience I've found that alot of technical people have trouble communicating with the rest of the people in their respective organizations, especially those outside of the IT department. Works for me. ds

B.Sc.

[dspisak]

What on Earth does Rimmer's Bronze Swimming Certificate have to do with job opportunities you smegging gimboid novelty condom?

Speaking of goals, why get a degree at all?

[raehl]

Take the money you're going to spend on getting another degree and start a business instead.

Where do they find these moderators??

[Seoulstriker]

If you know physics and math you can figure out chemistry or biology, but not vice versa.

This is the most bone-headed thing I have ever read on Slashdot. It boggles the mind how stupid this statement is. My head feels like it's going to explode.

Seriously, get a clue.

Re:Where do they find these moderators??

[CharlesEGrant]

It is an attitude unfortunately typical of a young person trained in physics or math. I'm speaking with a blush here because I remember saying similar things 20 years ago.

My original education was in physics but years later I got a B.S. in chemistry. The physical chemistry classes were relatively easy, though by no means a cinch. Synthetic organic chemistry blew my mind: terrificly hard puzzles that couldn't be framed in terms of math. I've since encountered similar depths in genetics. I still love physics and math, but I no longer accept Rutherford's claim that all science is either physics or stamp collecting.

Re:Where do they find these moderators??

[ediron2]

heh, love the rutherford quote. Hear-hear on the rest, though, as another physics geek. I would watch a friend memorize stuff for organic chem, then microbiology, etc. I can't memorize random stuff for s**t, so physics was ideal *for me*. For him, chemistry's complexity of thousands of patterns and families of behavior (and what for me was alphabet soup) made sense.

Sorta reminds me of once watching two physics undergrads struggle with economics until a third one started explaining it using thermodynamic terms. Or seeing a good musician with a hint of math insight explain to a mathematician that 'right' music can have so many mathematically-beautiful characteristics, then admit that music is best when it throws the recognizable math out the window at just the right instant.

Re:Where do they find these moderators??

[CanadaDave]

It's the truth you dimwit. I know many physicists who have picked up chemistry and biology with ease. Try getting a biologist to pick up some physics. A chemist, well, it depends what kind of chemistry they studied exactly. I know a computational chemist who knows as much about quantum mechanics as and physicist with a strong quantum mechanics background.

To do a Bachelors in say Chemistry and Physics or Biology and Physics. If you did the B.Sc. in Physics first, then the chemistry one, it would take you less total time than if you did it the other way around.

So, my advice to someone with a degree in comp. sci. is to get a degree in Physics. It will easily lead in to many other areas. I know physicists who are involved in machine learning, optimization, oceanography, finance. The only chemists I know are high school teachers or have moved off in completely tangential careers. The few biologists I know are medical doctors!

Re:Where do they find these moderators??

[CanadaDave]

ok, the dimwit comment was kind of harsh

Accounting (BS or MS) over MBA

[jsimon12]

MBA's are a dime a dozen these days, sure it is a good standard degree to get, but unless you are a strong business type it isn't going to rake in the cash. If you want to know what drives the beast and you can stomach the curriculum get an accounting degree from a GOOD school (when it comes to business and accounting degrees name unfortunately does matter). That coupled with a good knowledge of technology and a CS degree will allow you to write your own ticket. Assuming you aren't a mole person with no social skills.

Cynically speaking...

[frank_adrian314159]

...an MS in Dumpster Diving followed with a PhD in Urban Camping Technologies.

Mod Parent Up, and...

[weston]

And what I don't get is: why? Why do these offices assume they're gonna get better work out of their employees if they burn them out?

More to life than business

[vigour]

Almost all the posts so far have been business or industry related (with some interesting exceptions). Yet there are so many other opportunities out there, even for someone with "just" a cs degree, or with a combination of qualifications.

For example, if you were interested in the sciences (and even if you pick only one of them, eg physics) there are a huge number of different areas involving both fundamental and applied research using computational modelling. A pairing with any science degree can lead directly into the academic world (just like a cs degree), where in my opinion, the pay might not be as good as industry, but the social life, lower stress, and longer/more flexible time off leads to a better quality of life (along with ample opportunity to travel, especially if you use postdoc as a means for getting 2/3 year contracts in universities all round the world), and there is also plenty of room for working your way up (and it's not qualification based after your PhD, only results and a little political based).

Back on the money making business though :P......
If you're only two years out from your primary degree, you don't want to be getting an MBA so early, it should be primarily for people in their mid 30's already on the managerial ladder. For anyone in their 20's it doesn't look good, because for many of the jobs they might apply for they would be over qualified in the eyes of the interviewer. They would be people expecting/demanding a higer pay, and would be likely to move on quickly to better things. As a consequence of this, for people who then reach their 30's without significant inroads to the admin/managerial side of things, it looks bad on their CV to have an MBA since their 20's and not make the progress that might be expected of MBA graduates.
I apologise for the wishy-washy-ness of the "maybe"s and "would"s etc etc, it just can't be helped by me :P

Re:not engineers

[computational super]

Why do you think that? I agree that CS isn't the same as an EE (or even a CE), but it's an awfully tough degree to complete. I do know that differential equations is not a degree requirement for most CS programs, but otherwise, we're required to take two to three semesters of calculus, at least two semesters of a hard science (I chose physics and ended up doing four full semesters of it), statistics and, of course, a boatload of computer classes, including a few EE courses (and, of course, the requisite english/history/time-wasting stuff, too). Other than the core curiculum (and the added requirement of diffie-q), EE always looked pretty similar to CS to me. You're right - it's not an engineering degree... CS is closer to a math degree. It's still pretty hard to get, though. I don't see why you should be insulted, unless you've done a CS program and found it to be trivial compared to your engineering studies.

Computer Science

[ArubaHut]

My good friend evi nemeth has always said that there seems to be a net constant amout of "clue" in the ever expanding computer science universe. I tend to agree in the sense that the number of very powerful technical people in computer science remains quite small. These powerful people might be world wide experts in a tiny irrelevent domain, but nevertheless their value in a business context comes instead from their broad knowledge, their problem solving skills, and their ability to communicate and execute. They are not only smart people with good instincts, but smart people that get things done. Since your goal is pecuniary, your question, relative to my answer, is how can you become such a powerful person. I have known some who are unschooled and seem, like a primitive painter, to have their own sense of perspective untainted by a schooled view and hence are so out of the box as to be uniquely empowering. But based on your question this is not your path. Most everyone else gets there by spending a decent amount of time around smart, creative, and effective people in the discipline and figuring out how to think, communicate, and execute like them. A good place to do this is at a good PhD granting computer science department. You don't even have to be a student, but it helps. Another great place would be in a number of corporate research labs if you can score a position that gives you enough access.

Basic science

[C4BL3]

I think you should pursue a B.S. or MSc in physics, biology or chemistry. It will give you a more broad knowledge and you can work in almost any scientific field, from medicine to engineering. I'm a phycisist and currently I'm working for a bioingenieering groups that studies magnetic resonance in medicine!

French

[monkeySauce]

Personally, I am a B.S. Computer Science / B.A. French major. It's a good combo.

I'm currently a CS student....

[cybersavior]

I'm currently a freshman student going for a B.S in Computer Science. Now, I will admit that I dont have the same expirence in the coporate world as many of you all have had, however, I am dual-majoring in Philosophy.

I originally considered dualing with an MBA but thats what *everyone* has. I like to think (and hope) that in the coporate world, individuality counts for somthing. If 30 programmers apply for a position, all having CS/Business degrees and 1 applys with a CS/Philosophy degree, I would hope the Philosophy guy would get the position.

Now, I also chose Philosophy because I think its fun. Part of going to school is not just learning to help you in the job market, but to actually better yourself through knowledge. I would suggest find somthing that interests you and go for that.

It's really sad...

[mabu]

that after ~4 years of college you still don't know what the hell you want to do that you need to ask people here... In virtually every industry you can find people who have weird degrees that don't seem to jive with their present area of specialization. These are people that are exceptionally good at and passionate about what they do, and their degree doesn't ultimately make a difference. If you haven't figured this out, I might suggest going for a masters in Philosophy.

one word:

[Run4yourlives]

chill.

Re:one word:

[infochuck]

Two words: hypo crite.

First, you get all grammar-Nazi on me (by your own admission) without the basic English skills to back it up, and get miffed when I point out that you a) can't spell and b) missed the OBVIOUS point entirely. Then you tell ME to chill? You started this with your ignorance and trivialism, bub. Don't blame me if you're humorless AND dumb.

True enough, it sucks to be you, but that's an NMP.

Masters in CS

[Frank of Earth]

I did my undegraduate in CS and now, 10 years later, I'm doing my Masters in CS. I thought about doing an MBA, but honestly, it just seemed to boring and "work" like. I'm doing my MS in CS now and loving every minute.

If I had gone with the MBA route, I think it just would have been hell.

Re:faulty question

[WarPresident]

The OP implies that there's some degree that's better than interesting and relevant job experience. I've hired people. Do you know how much attention we pay to what degrees they have?

Do *you* know how HR writes the ads for your company and screens out perfectly capable candidates because they haven't hit the buzzword bingo? Unless you have connections, that "paper" is your only way past HR drones.

BIOLOGY!

[DingoBueno]

It's called bioinformatics, and it's hot. If you ever considered pursuing the MD, get on it.

Absolutely not.

[ryen]

An employer is no more interested in some kid who says hes contributing to an open source project than one who hasn't.
Working on open source projects doesn't identify any other skills other than motivation, which most recruiters can identify from a few interviews. Also, it doesn't show that you can work in a full-time environment with real development processes and not the ragtag un-organized development that most OSS projects face.
If you can't show that you can work 9-5 for 40+ hours a week (through internships or other experiences) then you'll get passed up for someone who can.

Re:Obligatory: You actually need a BA!

[Fulcrum of Evil]

The MBA is still going to McDonalds... He must not be rich.

Two things come to mind. First: you can't teach taste. Second: your plumber is more likely to be a millionaire than an MBA.

Consider an M.S. in French Fries

[ScourgeOfGod]

you know, manufacturing.

Master of...

[d_p]

Applied Narcotics.

physics

[drxray]

"But if you were writing a physics engine, a Physics degree would be useful."

I don't think that you need a whole physics degree to write a physics engine. They're just gravity, friction and momentum, stuff you've fully learnt by 16 or 17. If you can do CS you're presumably able to handle some vector equations, and no one is putting complicated stuff like fluid dynamics or relativity in their games (yet).

That said, physics is great. Astronomy is also really cool. If you're just interested in learning mind-expanding stuff, do physics. It's also fairly good for getting a job, but you might start considering most employment too mundane :)

get something stable to fall back on

[CAIMLAS]

You might look down on an AA as most in the slashdot crowd would, but I'd suggest you don't give into that ignorance and foolishness.

The logic follows fully: when all the more IT jobs get sent overseas, there will still be a need for people with marketable yet decidedly domestic requirements: plumbers, electricians, carpenters, conservation and police officers, and what have you. Sure, the work might not be your idea of "fun", and doesn't pay more than you're making now (probably), but it's a job which will always be there, and isn't bottom of the barrel. Plus, you'd be surprised how easy it is to enjoy non-office work. Office work just sucks the life out of most people.

It pays to diversify in something which will be of benefit for you. I can't honestly say I think that the US market is going to be anything but stable over the next 10 years or so, but that's just my amateur opinion. That, and diversifying is good for you as a person.

As an aside to this thread...

[conchobar0928]

What's the best tech/science field for people interested in traveling abroad (Asia in particular) who also enjoy learning foreign languages (but wouldn't necessarily want to work strictly as a translator)? There are numerous subjects I'm interested in, including CS, EE, physics, neuroscience, and materials. I would be happy doing any (or a combination), and the main deciding factor right now is which field presents the best opportunity for me to live in places like Tokyo, Beijing, and Seoul for awhile.

Minor in Russian (no-pyccku)

[Ranger]

Well I got a minor in Russian with my bachelors in Comp Sci. So far neither have paid off for me, financially. I was only able to use my CS degree for 3.5 years before the economy went tits up. I learned it for three reasons, a friend was into it (i ochen kracivi yizik), I thought it would make a nice resume stuffer, and I like learning foreign languages (Spanish and German in high school, mostly forgotten, Russian of course, a semester of Japanese, and now Scottish Gaelic Am bheil Gàidhlig agad?).

I'll know better next time to choose a major that I'll be happy with than one I think will make me a good salary.

I paired mine with Religion.

[aapold]

Now I keep waiting for a Deus ex Machina career salvation. (seriously I did, but that was more by accident, not intent)

Got a pipe wrench?

[rs79]

Get a plumbing degree. You're gonna be putting up with people's shit either way; you may as well get paid decently for it for a change.

Re:Got a pipe wrench?

[notAyank]

Here in Australia there is a shortage of tradespeople. It's apparently easy to earn >$100k as a plumber (or so an abc news radio report I heard said).

Re:Got a pipe wrench?

[C0d1ngM0nk3y]

You know what... Plumbers in the UK can earn upwards of 30k a year - that's slightly more than me and I've been in the software industry for 8 years!

Maybe I should go get a plumbing 'degree' - how hard can it be?

Plus... you get to use words like 'stopcock'.

Re:Got a pipe wrench?

[rs79]

"Urban mythology also says Canada is desperate for plumbers and electricians as immigrants. They've had endless scientists, engineers and academics import themselves, none of whom are capable of doing real work."

I live in a very rural part of Ontario. Within a 30 mile radiuns of here there's two doctors, a dentist and two plumbers. My house is ok. The MD/Dentists houses are nice. The two plumbers houses are new palatial estates.

A master's may not be listed as required...

[DeVilla]

but where I'm at, I've been told that they are preferring people with master's and the last few people we've hired have all had master's. I'm being encouraged to pursue one on the company's nickle (which I like) but due to the age of my two very young kids, it's going to be difficult on the family. (Ya, they'd pay for it. Like I should be complaining...)

It hurts when I do this

[rs79]

"Then there's the matter of the MCAT, an eight hour standardized exam from hell testing ..... writing 2 essays."

So, uh, how'd that work out for you?

It depends...

[Keebler71]

It depends... it sounds like you want to remain a programmer, but want to know which other degree will make you a better programmer. If that is really the case, then the answer depends on which type of programmer you want to be!

If you want to be a game developer, then perhaps a short-course in graphic design or a degree in cinematography or physics.
If you want to write buisness software, perhaps a degree in buisness or finance.
Do you want to write embedded software? A degree in Computer or Electrical engineering.
Do you want to write aircraft avionics software? Then a degree in aeronautical engineering.

I work with programmers every day... and they are excellent programmers... the problem is that they have no idea *how* the software they are writing will be used by the end user. Thus they spend many development interations creating what they *think* the user wants, only to have to go back and re-write significant sections of code. Since most of the bugs are introduced at the requirements analysis level (early), you can save your company a mint by really understanding how the software will be used... and that will make you a rare comodity. Good luck!

Get a graduate degree

[mrm677]

Getting another bachelors degree is foolish.

M.S., MBA, JD, whatever.

Even a MFA is better than another bachelors.

1-in-3 odds?

[Shag]

16000 seats, 48000 candidates? That's only 3 applicants for each available slot - not bad. The astronomy folks I work for (one department within the graduate division of one university) have 30 applicants per slot.

Admittedly, successful candidates do get to play with big shiny toys, but I think they make less than doctors. :)

Have I mentioned that Astronomy goes well with CS?

Steamed Carrots?

[cabazorro]

I believe you have to ponder on what exactly you want to learn and don't base your decisions on what you already know but rather what is that the interest you and the discipline/field/science that triggers your curiosity, your imagination and challenges your spirit.

Computer Science is a vast field and doesn't matter wich direction you choose to further you education, it will certainly complement it.

Don't settle for the cookie-cutters, seem a dream, prove real.

While carrots may go fine with meatloaf, the new disciplines and sciences you may master will give rise to a new you.

Serious answer

[rs79]

Law degree. Specialize in intellectual property. Fight the good fight; resist the dark side. I have as friends a number of people with (science/cs) PhD's that became intellectual property attornies. The are all exceptional people and the world is a better place because of them, not worse.

Itis utterly shocking the number of intellectual property "attornies" that don't actually understand the law.

The world needs a few more good IP lawyers.

Re:Serious answer

[Kulaid982]

I'm there man! I've got a BS in CS, but have been looking for a year for something to do with it, something BIG. A few weeks ago, I recieved my acceptance letter from Franklin Pierce Law Center in Concord, NH. Recognized as one of the top Intellectual Propterty law schools in the nation, I'm all about, as you say, "fighting the good fight". I actually wrote about F/OSS software in my personal statement that I submitted along with my application. My girlfriend's dad, a lawyer, agrees with you that whatever IP attorneys exist don't understand law, and most lawyers don't understand computers, software, and the internet. Oh yeah, the bonus is that Franklin Pierce is giving me a merit based scholarship in the amount of $12,000/yr. That means less debt upon getting my degree, which translates into bigger donations to the FSF and EFF, et al.... You love it! Who's with me???

Buyer beware

[4alexnyc]

A lot of people have suggested getting some type of master degree and I'm sure there's a few PhD suggestions floating around under my threshold limit but from my own experience, a higher degree is not always the best option.

Mind you, I have a CS undergrad and MBA, work for a Fortune 500 financial behemoth, and love nothing more than sitting around cranking out code late at night. Sadly, my job has made that much more of a 'hobby' activity and less a part the day job.

Having said that, I have one person on my team who's has no degree at all but is an absolute genius and another who's working towards his MBA but is more booksmart than tech savvy. Take a guess who I promoted?

Most companies want people who can produce; It doesn't matter if the goal is beating sales targets or delivering a top quality product on time, experience and execution always win out over degrees and booksmarts.

Having a degree helps, but its not first thing most companies look at. We have plenty of Ivy League and PhD's on staff, but most of my senior management have fairly basic educational pedigrees (half MBA/foreign equivalents and the other half have BA/BS paired with some "executive" training courses). Ultimately, you are judged on your past successes or failures. A degree helps you get the interviews and promotions at the higher levels, but avoid just focusing on getting degrees and not what you're going to do with it (like my unemployed, overqualified friend who just got his 4th degree).

Engineering....or anything.

[rbrander]

In my case it was Engineering, which came first. CS was my backup plan when engineering went through a very dry period in my city for a decade.

Then things got better and I became an engineer with a specialty and a lot of value to other engineers - the guy that could deal with the IT department - rather than an IT guy with an added degree they didn't appreciate.

And that will run through most jobs. You'll find your best employment options are in the field of the OTHER degree, not in IT per se.

CS is just a generally useful addition to almost any other specialty that gives you a special status and opportunities. (In most IT departments, the only one that will be appreciated is accounting, because half of business programming involves it.)

nihongo

[qurk]

Try Japanese, if you feel like going crazy. Could take a lot of effort to get to where you can sit down with a super famicon game that never got imported... but it's pretty satisfying. Or you could just wait forever or never on a lot of games. Learning Japanese and to read/write it can't be as hard as English, where you still have thousands of words to learn...but there are no rules and hardly any consistancy!!!!!

my cs degree

[jenso]

I actually did go back for a master on top of my BS CS degree. I was very interested in 3D graphics and animiation, and I had a chance to work with some really talented profs, so I took the chance...

I've written animation and motion capture software and helped another company create a game engine from scratch - now I'm creating online games for the web and teaching videogame creation and history. All of my professional experience has been creating software for (or with) artists, and I've really come to appreciate the artistic side of things.

If I was going to go back now I would add an art degree to my roster... my exposure to art and design has helped me push my career to a place I never imagined it would go...

Re:Mechanical Engineering

[DriveDog]

I agree completely with the first sentence. But as far as the business degree... that just gets you in the door (admittedly sometimes important). Someone earlier talked about learning the "whys" (of business decisions). That would be economics. Managing people involves, surprise, psychology. So study behavioral psych. But if you want to do more tech stuff, geography/geology pairs nicely with CS for GIS, remote sensing, etc. Physics for the coming quantum computing revolution, or for a lot of other applications. Maybe engineering, if a particular path is of interest. EE, mechanical, civil, chemical, (around here I keep hearing IE is Imitation Engineering). Remember, many early programmers were EEs, and in my opinion, programmers should understand what's going on at the lowest levels. Wish to understand the world better? History, economics, some interdisciplinary programs...

Not enough focus is put on the individual's brains

[i41Overlord]

I've met people who pursued Master's degrees because they felt inadequate all their lives. Getting the piece of paper validates them in their own mind.

Some of these people I knew since grade school, they took school much more seriously than I did, yet resented me because I was a slacker who could ace the tests and get the grades. They felt that it wasn't fair that I was placed in gifted classes all throughout school while they worked their ass off to attain mediocrity. I talk mean about them now because of the attitude I got from them, but I was never big on status and really didn't care what grades they got. That didn't define them as a person.

Fast forward to present time, talking to these people and they're still dim. Only they're now dim people with Master's degrees, who talk down to me because I chose not to get a degree. And again, when we were out at the bar and they had one of those trivia games, when I won the match they didn't congratulate me or give me any credit, they simply reassured themselves that they have a degree.

A degree is nice, but it is no replacement for true talent. I'm always willing to apply myself when I need to, I just don't feel the need to brag about it.

I'm not big on status, I'm one of those people who is big on substance. It's more important to "have it" than it is to constantly market yourself and tell people that you have it. Keep life simple, stop trying to impress people.

Electrical Engineering

[vpupkind]

I had the same dilemma recently. I chose electrical engineering. I am not interested in electricity, semiconductor devices, etc. -- which is considered to be the core EE stuff. There are a lot of exciting things you can do in EE, where your CS background is an asset. Image processing, recognition and coding are one thing. Digital design (and really understanding the HW/SW interface) is the other -- I have seen weird design decisions done because most people understand one part (SW or HW), but not both. But the best thing is to think what really interests you. In my case I first found what I wanted to do in my thesis, and then tried to figure out where can I do it.

Call me crazy.....

[redsilo]

But has anyone considered English? There is, and always has been, a gulf between programmers and the rest of us. Being able to explain your work to someone that is not capable of doing your job should be worth a mint. Not sure if you can sell it but the need is out there.

Re:not engineers

[Hork_Monkey]

I don't see you driving the train. Plus, real enginneers wear those cool black and white caps. And pull the chain to make it go "Choo-Choo".

The question is, what *field* to get it in.

[jonadab]

A Master's in Computer Science is seldom required, granted. So, get a degree
in something else. Your BS in CS will go with lots of things. What else
interests you besides programming? Security? Computer science seems to be
a good combination with security, so why not get a degree related to that?
Or is science more your thing? What kind of science? Biology? You could
end up programming bio-science stuff, like DNA sequencing or who knows what.
Physics? There's *lots* of physics stuff to do that involves computer
science -- aircraft design, for instance. Meteorology goes well with
computer programming too. Or maybe science isn't your thing. Maybe you'd
rather get your Master's in Library Science, and get a job writing and
supporting library automation systems... or you could go for math (which,
incidentally, is almost as much fun as programming) and end up writing
actuarial software or something like Mathematic or whatnot, or doing
computer-based pure math research for a university, or just wind up as a
professor. (Being a professor doesn't pay as well as some things, but the
working conditions are okay, and the benefits are decent (e.g., decent
hours, summers off, two weeks for Christmas, a week around Easter time...
and your kids get *serious* tuition discounts if they have to pay at all...)
so it's not altogether a bad way to go.) Or you could sell your soul to
Catbert and get an MBA. There are tons of options. What field do you like?

I just gotta

[TheoMurpse]

Unless you were trying to say that you received teaching from Computer Sciences itself, you probably meant to say
Computer Science wo oshiete kureta
I was taught Computer Science.

Interestingly enough, the romanization for the Japanese for Computer Science is conpyuutaa saiensu.

Re:I just gotta

[Hast]

There was a "ka" in there as well, so it was probably intended as a question. Though appending a short form phrase with a "ka" tends to confuse japanese native speakers.

Re:I just gotta

[PakProtector]

I meant to say 'Computer Science Taught Me.' I was debating saying 'Computer Science ga ai wo oshiete kureta,' but I don't think pr0n counts for these things.

Be a Rolling Stone (gather no dust)

[QTeela]

While gaining experience in the workforce, also work towards certifications, and keep your skills current. Be strong in programming, databases, and networks. Build and upgrade your own computers. Do not stay in a job any longer than two years if you are not gaining knowledge, the pay is lousy, there is no opportunity for advancement, or you are given a beeper, or equivalent, because you need time for the additional training.

Mod parent up!

[Money for Nothin']

As a soon-to-be BSCS and already-completed Econ. minor, I'd say this is good advice all-around.

I've worked with the programmer ideologues, and as an intern, worked *for* a programmer ideologue, writing C/C++ for a simple GUI app when a higher-level language like Java or Perl or Python would've done the trick just as well and could be implemented much more quickly.

These same programmers -- some of them have been my professors -- say ASM is still important to business. IME talking to an interviewing with several companies, that's only the case in certain specialized areas (e.g. old mainframe or embedded development); the vast majority of other companies I've talked to have literally, on multiple occasions upon reviewing my resume, told me "ASM? Why are they still teaching you ASM?! Nobody uses ASM anymore." (I just shrug and say "well, it was a requirement in the CS dept...) And even more such programmers still stick with C, no matter how prone to security holes it is or how long it takes to write an app in it vs. some higher-level language.

Neither group recognizes the fundamental "time is money" concept by which business lives and dies; it's the "I have a hammer, and everything looks like a nail" philosophy used over and over again among developers...

Of course, there are the monkeys at the opposite end, who would use C#, VB, Java, etc. for everything, even when performance *is* an issue, for which C or C++ would be more appropriate; they too fail to realize that CPU time, although generally becoming exponentially cheaper according to Moore's Law, can still matter in high-volume or heavy-computational scenarios.

The programmer ideologues simply don't recognize a practical "right tool for the job" mindset...

I personally did an Econ. minor because I find Economics interesting (and, along with physics and politics, it's one of the 3 fundamental systems I see as governing everybody's lives), and once thought about majoring in it (or double-majoring in it with CS). Even now I'm still considering going for a master's in Econ. (or IP law, if there's a law school which will take me) and possibly leaving IT (or at least applying my Econ. study to IT somehow), for a variety of reasons...

Unfortunately, I find Econ. more interesting at my school than my CS education because Economics is a much more theoretical study than CS is at my school (and I've discovered that I'm happiest studying both theory *and* its applications (whether it's in CS, physics, econ., etc.), not just its application, as is mostly the case in my CS dept. Basically, I chose the wrong school for CS), making me rather unhappy with my upcoming CS degree. :(

I'd like to find something that combines CS and Econ., but the closest to that ideal I've found is something along the lines of financial engineering, but I greatly doubt my math abilities would take me very far as a quant (which is why companies in the fin. eng. field tend to hire hard-science majors (physics especially) more than any other)...

go for the MS

[cg0def]

Contrary to popular belief getting a BS in CS you know absolutelly nothing (especially true for the US educational system). Unless you plan on working in you dad's company and getting an exec position right away do not waste your time with MBA. If you are starting in a company as a programmer the best thing to do is learn as much as you can about programming. The only way you can do this is by getting an MS in some decent college where you are actually going to be working on projects and will learn something worth your time. The fact that MS is not required means absolutelly nothing. A lot of things are not required however MS in most cases is equivalent to 2 years industry experience and in 95% of the cases does put you ahead in the job search process. The 5% are companies that are trying to hire someone for as little money as possible and those companies are usually going to make you do the shit work like testing and stuff. So it's really up to you but knowledge and capabilities are always rewarded and if I were you I would go for a MS.

You are probably in a Liberal Arts college is you are askig about this so dude : I'm sorry ...

10 letters - experience

[gosand]

You'll also have to cope with the huge influx with people graduating with MBAs over the next few years. I have to wonder if the market is going to be flooded with too many MBAs soon.

Don't get me wrong. Education is a good thing, but it really seems like everyone and his sister are enrolling in an MBA program.

Which I think pretty much answers the posters question. If there is a flood of MBAs in the market, someone with an MBA and a BS-CS degree would definitely stand out. Maybe not as much as if there were no MBAs in the market, but an MBA with a CS degree is defintely a benefit.

Of course, you might get stuck doing the MBA stuff versus the CS stuff. Personally, I wouldn't want that. I would recommend getting experience in the "real world" and not worry so much about the extra degrees. I would rather hire someone with the extra experience under their belt.

Experience is where it's at.

[balford]

I just finished school, but the only thing that earned me my job was my experience as an intern. Granted, I don't have a lot. But I know many (more than not) with the same degree as myself who are still unemployed.

I have a need

[kimkhan]

You need to decide what your goal first. If your goal is to find a job by doing an MBA because having a BS degree is not getting you anywhere then forget it. I have a BSEE and now after 7 years of work experience I am doing an MBA in Marketing. Why? Because, I have a goal to start my own business with some good ideas I have. I know in order to do this I need to have some skills other than just technical know how of my ideas. I need to know how to become an entreprenuer, do some accounting, Management, and above of all learn all the marketing tricks. I have a need for the MBA degree.

So need is the main thing here. You need to identify your need. Because one thing I know for sure, an MBA degreee right after getting a BS degree is not a good choice. Get some real work experience then go for a higher degree.

Re:Mechanical Engineering

[RPI Geek]

lol :)

new religions are here

[baomike]

A large number of people in the US have a new religion. They may not know it though. A majority of
church attendees have little idea of the tenents of their faith. I guess they make it up as they go along.

"Old line" religions do better, ie catholics, CofE etc....

I reccommend neonatology

[baomike]

The're to young to care about humongus paragraphs.

Do want you truly WANT to do...

[GimliGloin]

Cliff,

What do you feel really passionate about? If you are unemployed right now and are looking to get another degree just to get a job then listen to people's opinions here. But if you are paying the bills okay, then spend your time getting your degree in something that really excites you. The reason is that you have a much better chance at being successful at something you LIKE doing. The majority of people out there HATE their jobs. Many of them got into their fields because it was the POPULAR degree/training thing at one time (but times do change). Back in the 80's it the hot degree was EE. LOTS and LOTS of people got EE degrees because all the experts thought there were unlimited jobs in EE. Most wouldn't have spent the time in all the difficult classes if it paid what a History Degree paid. The result: Lots of unhappy Engineers out there that do the damnest to get into management (to get away from EE) and become even worse managers....

If you like Electronics, then go for EE
If you wanna be a boss, then go for and MBA-like thing
If you are totally passionate about Greek Vase painting, then get a degree in Art History and try to tie it to CS somehow...

Listen to yourself, not the "experts". Given enough time, they are always wrong....

GSG

I'd get a Woman

[ibman]

After a hectic study life, I'd get me a nice big juicy woman, have some kids, get a few leases on a couple of cars, mortgage a house or two (rent the other one out), cruise around the world enough times so that you can hurl overboard without getting your tux messy, have tea with Sir Richard Branson and Steve Fawcett on a balloon over the Himalayas (maybe throw U2 on there for some afternoon entertainment), negotiate some peace talks with North Korea, South Korea, China, Japan, and the US, and why not round things off with breakfast at Milliways. Oh yeah, don't forget to throw "get a job" somewhere in there. It doesn't matter where. Most people get a few along the way.

Political Science

[mrbrown1602]

Actually, an excellent idea would be to get your Poli Sci degree, and then you could work for an organization lobbying Congress on technological issues.

sparks

[FLOOBYDUST]

Get a copy of the yellow pages.... find an electrician,,,,moonlight on the weekends as an apprentice.....get a journeyman's license, then a masters license. with the CS and electrical license you can retire when your 55.

Re:EDUMACATION

[bussdriver]

Problem is people are marketing themselves with certifications, degrees are just a more impressive certification. Colleges are full of people wanting job skills only, and they are turning slowly into trade schools.

College is not for everyone. Trade school is acceptable. Many jobs don't require intensive training. Learning on the job suites many areas as well or better than schooling.

He's correct.

[baomike]

There is a place for CPA's that knows about IT.
Someone has to bridge the gap (and there is a gap).

One danger I found was that the IT people thought you were an acct, and the acct. people thought you were wierd. The mangement, however would listen to you if you knew what you were talking about. You usually did because you could see both sides.
IF you don't know what your talking about, however, keep your mouth shut. (almost always good advice).

baomike,CPA retired.

Music Composition

[EEBaum]

Well, that's what I'm doing anyways. If you're going to pair a degree, I'd suggest doing something completely unrelated that really engages you. Sure, it takes a significant amount of time. However, with all the job applicants who claim to have "unique insight" due to a business course, you'll actually have something that most others don't.

Such a degree exposes you to different ways to look at the world, and a whole different type of people. Also, it helps you make your way into a niche market. Further, if you ever burn out on CS, you have something else to turn to.

Re:Music Composition

[mjmartin_uk]

I totally agree, I'm doing a four year music composition degree at the moment, I'm considering doing comp-sci with Open University, my composition degree includes dealing with object-oriented composition (Max/MSP), music technology but also forms, history, arrangement. At the same time as doing this, I teach PHP, Linux, Samba at weekends and run a popular website. Computing and Music is a brilliant match. Also... coding IS creative.

depends on your interests... but

[xeeazgk]

computer sciences is great you can combine it with one of several science degrees. chem, biochem, bio, physical chem, geology, physics, math The point is that computers are used for everything in science these days. Whatever you like, there is a use for a computer scientist. also, law schools are recruiting CS majors... there's a lot of need for technically literate lawyers these days. an MBA is a great addition to any degree. The science of business is the science of making money. If you've got CS talents, an MBA will teach you how to capitalize on it. Stay out of liberal arts... fine arts... not alot of extra opportunities with a CS / Piano education. You can also do many corporate training programs. Try to find programs that aren't just giveaways. The Oracle program is a good example, not everyone passes, thus it is more valuable. Of course, you could just get a job without any further education. CS is a good door into almost anything these days. tmaxwellREMEVETHEATcsTHAD0TutexasAD0Tedu

Electronics Engineering rocks

[SwedishChef]

What better course of study to accent your ability to deal with software than another course of study that teaches you just exactly *HOW* all those electrons make the magic happen? I generally advise students to begin with a BSEE and then get a Master's in CS but it works the other way around, too. The logic is inescapable: your job prospects are enhanced greatly by the BSEE and your prospects as an engineer are enhanced by your ability to program. So many CS majors are clueless about the hardware; I've had them demand that I teach them exactly why, for instance, they cannot control their dorm room's lights with the parallel port on their desktop. After all, the programming for such a task is trivial! The combination of software and hardware is a world-beater.

Re:Electronics Engineering rocks

[Bill of Death]

Very true. I have a CS degree, but often wish I had better understanding of electronics, circuit design, and the physics of integrated circuits. In particular, people with good analog design skills are very valuable. Don't laugh - wireless and high speed digital design, for example, both require complex analog design. With a good EE background, you have the opportunity to understand the WHOLE computer -- from transistor all the way up to application running on it.

Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Russian

[patio11]

Take your pick of a (human) language which is not Western European. How many unemployed engineers are there who can program better than you? Lots. How many unemployed engineers are there that can program better than you... and know enough of a foreign language to code programs which either target that population or use assumptions of that language? Not very many, at all. Besides the obvious government agencies (there is a reason I picked those five languages -- you will seriously by hired the same day your security check passes if you combine CS with any of the five), natural language research, localization/internationalization (something the OSS community could really, really use at the moment by the way), etc, etc, etc.

Re:Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Russian

[vpupkind]

Be serious, there are tons of people with a CS degree and proficiency in at least one of these (except for Arabic)!
Moreover, you should never ever let someone who is not a native speaker do localization.

I was asking myself the same question today...

[jalagl]

I am hopefully completing my M.Sc. in CS this semester, after 5 years of working and studying at the same time. I have been (I think) successful at work - I'm right now on my way to my third job as a consultant//Project Manager, traveling all over the world working with big companies.

This will be the first time since I got into kindergarden that I wouldn't be studying. I enjoy learning new things, so I started thinking today of what else I could dig my teeth into. I've been considering some type of social science, either psicology or sociology, since I've always been intriged about human behavior and interaction. Or, there's the requisite MBA. Or, I've always wanted to get a degree in math.

I think the best bet for my career would be to go with the MBA. But I think I'm going to end up on psicology... maybe it'll help me, maybe it'll not, but it is something I've always wanted to know about.

Go for something completely different

[crazyeddie740]

First off, I know nothing about how HR or management or other kinds of suits want. I'm also very underemployed at the moment myself. My advice would be to get a degree in something else entirely. Like history or art. I'm not sure whether a bachelor's or master's would be better. But getting a degree (or more importantly, an education) in a completely unrelated field might make you a better programmer. Even if that's not true, then at least you're learning something. In the long run, that might be a better thing than worrying about degrees. What degrees you have and who you know will get you a job, but what you actually know will let you keep one. Or at least that's what somebody said - I'm still stuck at the first one. Just go out and pick a field you like, but never had the chance to work on because you were too busy cramming for the calculus final or whatever.

Required vs. Bonus

[AvantLegion]

>> I've rarely (read: never) seen a Masters degree required

Not required, no. But isn't the idea to go above and beyond the bare minimum?

Make no mistake, it might not be required, but it sure is looked upon in very favorable light!

Best degree?

[bmo]

Get a foreign language degree in Hindi, because that's where all the comp sci jobs are moving to.

--
BMO

Isn't that being outsourced?

[ulatekh]

I was thinking strongly of doing something like this, but it was my understanding that this career was already being outsourced to places like India. Is that your experience?

After what happened to my C.S. career, I refuse to waste my time going back to school to get a degree that'll get outsourced.

MBA

[sonictheboom]

was a programmer, but wanted to work for myself. Did an MBA, started business, lost a LOT of money and am now un-employable. Had to work long and hard to get going again. I love it and would recommend it to any one and everyone.

I get to decide what to do - so no accounting software, yes to network security.

try...

[DSLAMngu]

Hindi

Getting Ph.D and MBA

[keithpreston]

I was just trying to see what people think about what I am doing. I am 20 years old and in a direct Ph.D program in Computer Engineering right after I got a B.S in Math. I am also pursuing an online M.B.A. in parallel with the Ph.D and hope to be done with all by 22. I have some experience, three summer internships, and 2 years in I.T. before college. I think it's a good idea what I'm doing but would someone hire me? I will be overqualified for my first job afterwards, but is that a bad thing? I mean with a few years of experience, I should be able to move up very quickly Keith

Re:not engineers

[tongue]

The only reason an EE is harder to get is because EE's have been more successful in regulating the industry--read: getting government to weed out the competition.

I got my CS from an engineering school--guess where all the engineers came for tutors? (Hint: it wasn't their department)

subject matter expertise

[alw53]

This is easy -- get a degree in some subject matter that interests you. Accounting, chemistry, anything. Or learn to fly and get a job at air traffic control -- pay is great, hours are good, retire in 20 years.

Its about education

[j.boulton]

I have a BSc comp sci and a degree in electronics. Why? Because I wanted to do more cool stuff. I wasn't interested in any future career opportunities. If you want to do another degree don't do for someone else's benefit - do it to pursue your own interests and passions.

Love or Money?

[rpbird]

If you like CS, if you like using your mind in that way, get a second BS (or BA) in Math. If I could climb in the wayback machine and do things over again, I'd get a dual degree in CS and Math.

For the money? God knows. If you go with a trend, by the time you're done, in two or three years, or even a year, you'll be fighting over limited jobs with all the other followers. If you want to go into another field, or expand your employment opportunities, get an engineering degree.

It's nice to have advice. Do the right thing and decide for yourself.

The best?

[jandersen]

Learn to be a plumber, electrician, builder or gardener. No seriously - these people charge more per hour than most programmers dare aspire to, and its a physically active job. Plus, there's little reason to believe that the need for that kind of people will ever go away. A safe bet, in my opinion.

Mathematics/Mathematical Physics.

[ooleary]

Mathematics or Mathematical Physics. Maths for the logic and MP so you can get a job with the weather service.

Go turncoat, do ESL

[cybernezumi]

Get an appropriate degree in ESL instruction and use that with your techie knowledge to teach English to the Indians techies that all the jobs are being outsourced to...

I really don't think...

[carlmenezes]

...you should look at increasing your marketability. Whenever you decide to join the industry, whatever you do for the first two years or so will decide the career you settle into for the most part.

So think VERY hard. What would you really want to do every day? It comes down to job satisfaction. If you can get that, then being good at your job comes naturally and so does increasing your marketability, because your passion for what you do will show - you won't need to fake it.

So I turn it back to you - what career do you want? Pick one that you're perfectly fine doing for the rest of your life - sure, you'll rise, but the field, the area of application and the concepts used probably won't change that much.

If you love messing with Word documents, presentations, spreadsheets, stuff like that, I'd say somewhere around an MBA/Marketing will suit you.

If you love analysis, statistics, modeling, maybe something along the lines of DSP/Mathematics...

I hope you get what I'm trying to say. Ten years into your career, you should be able to say you chose it because you love doing your job and not because of a comment on Slashdot that was rated 5.

A FORIEGN LANGUAGE

[jamej]

Proficency in a foriegn language is rapidly growing in importance in every job that is worth your time. Japanese is a big money language and so is Spanish and Chinese. Pick one and learn it. It will pay you dividends long after your CompSci degree dies of old age five years from now.

the real question

[braydonf]

maybe don't think about it in terms of what will have more 'market' value... but what do you really care about, that should decide where you should go in the future...

MRes

[goldcd]

My situation was slightly different, I'd obtained a BSc in Biochemistry, but decided I'd loathe a career in that industry.
I took a 1 year MRes in bioinformatics, the intention being that I'd end up with a piece of paper saying I could use a computer and it didn't look like I'd wasted my time doing my degree.
What I learnt:
Do something different for your next degree. The world is full of people who have a CS degree and then an MBA *yawn*. Choose a field you're interested in working in and find an M*** that is appropriate. CS can be applied to all manner of fields - your skills will be wanted and if you remain straight CS then you'll end up as a java monkey in come corporate bodyshop. This is not good. Java monkey's are easy replaced and always tricky to explain why you're special/better than the others.
My MRes was basically a mini phd with tutorials. I was chose a topic at the start of the year and at the end I handed in a paper. First time I'd ever had to force myself to work, find people in different departments to provide information, convince people to help me. Helped me pick up all the soft skills you need in the workplace dealing with the evil within and without (emplyers/clients).

Subject

[Legion303]

"Which degree(s) do YOU think will go well with a Computer Science Bachelors?"

I don't know, but an English degree would go a long way toward helping you avoid those random apostrophes.

B.sc ain't nothin

[Anonymous Coward]

In Finland, B.Sc is nothing, you have to be atleast M.Sc. to be anything. Bachlelor is not even considered a degree here. My chinese wife is M.Sc in computer science and also masters degree in business with excellent grades.

Still it war very hard to get a job in finland, and have to worry about layoffs every single day. Her first jobs in finland were to be a waitress in bar and dishwasher. It doesn't matter if you're Ph.D here, if employer finds out you're foreigner most of them don't want you even to interview. And IT jobs are really under the rock now. So at that education level your income here is about $3000 where you pay about 30% income tax (plus everything has %22 VAT label on it). I guess you US ppl laugh at this?

So go for it. B.Sc is nothing, you're nobody with millions of other bachelor nobodys in global market.

Remember, in China there comes nearly 5 million post-graduate students every year. They are competing from your job also in global market. And they ask salary of 2000 rmb($200) in month. Be ready to compete with that.

Big amount of computer jobs will get out of US in frothcoming years. Silicon valley is running on H1B guys from India and China - cause US universities are high level, put their throughput is poor (not enough ppl to meet industry demand and often with too high pricetag). Now when Gov now is cutting the amount of visa's, outsourcing to asia comes even more attractive option.

If you want to be doing IT job in by next 20 years, be also ready to relocate in China or India.

Statistics maybe -- MBA doubtful

[lingoman]

Statistics is a good one, for a math specialty, but like others have said: It is really up to what you want to do. Biotech, finance ... others give you some extra strengths. But careful about MBA's. In general don't waste your time and money unless you have the wherewithall to go to a top-notch program. Heavy-duty finance and accounting are useful subjects for employers. Don't bother with schools that turn out Wal-Mart trainees and burger-joint managers. Management psychology and communications are bogus subjects.

Re:physics

[torako]

Exactly. Lots of people have no idea what college-level physics is really all about and when they say "Physics would be the right thing for you" they actually mean "Engineering"... Physics is so beyond real-life problems practically and considering the math required that having a physicist work on a game-physics-engine would be like having an MD design a Little Doctor Kit (tm) for Toys'R'Us. Also, physics is really difficult, arguably more so than CS.

Experience

[ThurstonMoore]

More important to your marketablility than additional education, would be more work experience.

Re:not engineers

[Fnkmaster]

I don't think you know what you're talking about. It depends on where you go to school - CS, at a shitty school, is probably incredibly easy. Where I went to school, a CS degree was one of the hardest (though not as hard as physics, which was my major, but I took a bunch of the CS classes and I saw them dropping that major like flies).

Next Degree

[OldManGamer]

As others have noted: Another degree isn't going to help you if you don't know what you want to do. Get some experience in industry, in retail, in anything but academia. Learn about your people skills; this will lead you to or away from business analysis. Are you a coder with mad skillz, a designer with a user-friendly touch, a communications hacker with mystic diagnostic ability? So, you try a few things and they don't work; just keep trying. A couple of years doing that is better than spending them in class. My 2 cents.

MSEE

[coolamber]

Master of Science in Electrical Engineering. EE is still highly sought after and a lot of schools will accept a CS degree to cover 99% of the requirements to enter a masters program. I am currently in school for my MSEE...

does not apply to 3rd world countiries..

[majid_aldo]

in thir world countries, you're lucky if you can even get a job in the first place.

Personal View

[webhat]

Note: I have no degrees so all I'm offering is personal opinion.

I've always heard, from most of the people I've worked with who actually had the degree, that a BS in Computer Science is just that, BS. From this I formed my opinion that CS is a little to general, although I'm sure you learned a lot of cool stuff I don't know.

I know a couple of people who have a BS in CS with AI specialization, which personally sounds a lot more interesting. Mostly because they also did some of Psychology and some Electrical Engineering.

If I ever decided to get a degree I'd probably go for something like Mathematics. (Mostly so I wouldn't have to muddle through the real complex mathematical parts of cryptography, having to look up information every two sentences.) And because I think pure math is kinda cute. (I'm a geek.)
Or maybe Electronic Engineering, which will probably help me to figure out what I'm consistantly doing wrong with my designs. (They always work though.)

What do I think you should do?

Hmm, what do you like besides from Computers, see if you can't get a degree in that. I know plenty of people who did things like Botany, Languages, History or something else who have great jobs in the computer industry.

Do you want to learn everything from the Technical niche? Or do you aspire to something more like Homo Universalis?

Cunning linguistics

[anticypher]

Je suis d'accord, bestuderen van taal is een goed idee, e fá-lo-á valioso.

I'm fluent in several languages, French, Dutch, and Portuguese, and can follow business meetings in Swedish, Italian, German and Spanish. I have a basic amount of Gaelic and Russian, enough to get a beer or my face slapped. I can read newspapers in about a dozen other languages and grok some basic understanding from the articles (although it helps if there are pictures :-)

One of the nice things about being an anglophone in computers/telecoms is the natural advantage you have when dealing with non-anglophones. You don't have to make an extra effort to translate or understand the material, its already in your language. If you are able to *fluently* communicate in a few other languages, enough that the natives don't have to drop into English for you, then you have a huge value to many employers in this world.

I am constantly running into Europeans who really know their stuff, but their English is limited to being able to read technical manuals or websites. They can deal effectively with most of their job, but when they have to communicate in English, either written or spoken, they just can't hack it. So employers are always looking for truely multi-lingual talent. When a Portuguese telecoms wants to make a deal with an Estonian telecoms, English is the only way to communicate.

There is another positive side to learning linguistics and a couple of foreign languages. If your field of CompSci is Natural Language Processing, or compiler/parser design, then you will have an extra level of insight.

The down side is that there are no real multi-lingual jobs in the US. If you are in the US (or UK or down-under) then english is the only language and your linguistics degree is pretty useless. But if the current political climate has you looking to spend a few years abroad until after the next election or three, then learning languages is an excellent choice for adding value to your current skill set.

the AC

It has something to do with your interests

[dmacp]

Learning more is one thing but - learn more about what? Do you like the mathematics side? The puzzle solving side? The graphical user interface side? developing new technology? making useful things? The only reason for continuing your education is if you think computer science is too broad - which it is. What do you aim to do in the future? This will tell you what to concentrate your masters studies in. Read some relevant papers and talk to people who are successful in fields you are interested in - especially people from other universities and other disciplines - to get their views before deciding if this is who you want to be working with for the REST OF YOUR LIFE.

Great, another clueless CS drone!

[BestNicksRTaken]

The company I work for has just hired another fresh-out-if-college C programmer with no experience.

We already have one, he can only write basic .exe's that read logfiles - I guess they don't teach you how to write daemons or use stdin in CS?

So the idiots went and hired another one. She can't even install Linux on her PC, I guess she's been too sheltered by academia and has no real interest in computers other than to make money (did I mention that they're both from India?)

So me (with no formal computing training, all self-taught, with a BA in Business) and my co-Developer/Sysadmin (who quit today, and didn't even go to college) are the ones doing all the work, for less money....

make a /. poll with best answers here

[MMHere]

In addition to various people making suggestions here, can we take some of the better / more popular ones from this comment thread and make a /. poll on the front page?

While unscientific, you'd get some kind of gauge of what /. readers at large think of the answers presented here. (Many people don't bother to read the comments...)

Neuroscience!

[neurozack]

Mental health is the ultimate competitive weapon. Mental health underpins the development of intellectual capital and competitive advantage. It anchors the capacity of employees, managers and executives to think, use ideas, be creative and be productive. Like never before, businesses depend upon the consistent, sustainable mental performance of their employees. By enabling a higher level of productivity, neurotechnology represents the next form of competitive advantage beyond information technology. Just as workers today leverage information technologies for competitive purposes, workers in the neurotechnology wave(2010-2060) willturn to neurotechnology to enhance their competitive performance. http://www.corante.com/brainwaves/archives/cat_neu rocompetition.html

Go for GIS. I did

[sfactork]

Geographical Information Science - using computers for everything from cartography, archaeology, navigation, biology, geology, urban planning, disaster management, environmental science..... application areas that the IT industry normally doesnt expose the average geek to ! you probably won't learn much at programming but the exposure is great.

Which is why

[tod_miller]

He said he would prefer the other type.

If you are in a burning building, which fireman would you like:

Fireman a: in it for the paycheck, has 2 year old daughter, doesn't want to risk himself.

Fireman b: wants to save people, will risk his own life to save others, less ties.

If you are the head of a software team, would you prefer a person who will sacrifice more of less?

If you are Walmart would you prefer those who work like asses [think mule] or those who sit on thier asses?

Just because you want to wave you flag, you have to see that you are on the other side of the equation, hence you comment is a little redundant in that respect (attacking someone for having an opposite opinion, when they are on the opposite side really).

Work to live, don't live to work, yes, very deep, you are my socialist hero. I actually like my job I am lucky, but my life is also very rich, I always have to balance my job and life, I certainly go early and finish early when I can, and time is always an issue.

If I have nothing planned i am not going to sit home and watch tv though, i'd much rather fine tune that routing algorithm or fix that rather narking memory leak [tiny] that is hidden really deep in some code, and puzzles me.

You also forget that work is life. Retirment can get dull, because our minds like to work. Some people paint as a hobby, others do it as a job, I ski for fun, others are instructors. I guess being a ski instructor must be fun, but it must also grate on you a bit at times, like any job.

who enjoys working overtime...because he is a miserable git I htought you said he enjoys working overtime?

Yes here is another saying you can run up the flagpole and see which way it blows: All work and no play makes johnny pull out a rifle and pick people off one by one from a clock tower. Or something like that.

Don't just shoot down another side with yotu argument without giving some credit for the fact that THEY ARE ACTUALLY RIGHT. Your views are not mutually exclusive it is possible for the boss to want you to work to death, and for you to want ot be a hip and cool guy and tell everyone how good you life is... JUST because these two ideals ARE mutually exclusive, the condition whjere two people can hold each of them is 100% plausible, and actually the norm.