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Techies Saying No To College
peter303 writes: "Todays NYTimes reports (annoying free subscription required) how many young men are skipping formal college to pursue high paying IT jobs.
Is this a wise move?" Every fall this debate comes back up. I enjoyed college, but I don't know how much of what it taught me will be relevant in my career. But should techies skip out?
I go to college. I take 12 hours. I have a tech job, and I work 25 hours a week. I make great money.
If you are not lazy, you can find a tech job out there to work while you are in collge. Sure, you might not graduate in 4 years, but you will be making good money in the process, depending on who you work for. Don't go for school-sponsored internships. This is something you do on your own.
-- ERICmurphy -- www.jabber.org for open-source, XML-based IM
Everyone seems to be hung up about this being a career issue. It's not just about the career or the classes. College offers so much more. I graduated with a B.S.E. and M.S.E. from U of Michigan. And I wouldn't trade that for anything. Sure, I spent alot of time in classes, and some were useless. But some of them were fasinating, especially those that were taught by very brilliant people. But the most important thing that I got out of college were the things outside of classes. There's nothing like waking up on Saturdays and walking with 10000 other students to the football game. Or the time when everyone stopped studying to go out and have a big snowball fight with 100 other people. Or the number of Spring Break parties with the lacrosse team that I was a part of. Spending late nights in the dorms with your roommates playing Nintendo eating late night specials from the local pizza joint. When I got out of college, I was upset that I didn't leave earlier. I thought I missed the opportunities. But, with a bit of luck and hard work, I joined a start-up and now I am worth a considerable amount of money. How did I find this start up? It happened to be that a professor that I worked with during my graduate school days was involved in it. If I didn't get a masters, I would have found this job. And it didn't matter that I didn't have the work experience. By going to school, I was able to prove that I can think outside the box. If you think that you can go to college later in life and still experience the same thing, you're so wrong. You'll never really fit in. You'll be that old guy in class who will never be told where the parties are. Enjoy your life. There's so much of it. The money will always be there. If you are smart as you think you are, you will survive no matter what happens.
I spent a great deal of time (5-6 years, but skipping a couple semesters) in college working to become a computer engineer, then switched down to computer science after taking a lot of extra classes I didn't need. Well, I don't know what exactly happened but after about 120 credits completed I was still about 50 to 60 credits away from being finished.
I went to a community college for the first 100 hours. Those credits transferred to a state university. Getting to the university was an hour and a half commute :(
After about 4 years, when I had to start commuting it got to be a real pain. I tried to do as much as possible at the community college since it was nearby. Some semesters I got really bad schedules. I had taken all the math/calc, physics, statics, dynamics, chemistry, statistics, thermodynamics, and linear alegbra. Then when it came around to taking CS classes, there was only one session/section offered per semester for the CS Intro class, and it was always full when I tried to get into it! Therefore, I could never take any CS core classes that required the Intro to CS class as a prerequisite!
In the end, I learned a lot of cool things which I'll never get any use of except on my own time for my own little projects. Essentially I took everything you could except the CS core classes. I was even accepted into the Phi Theta Kappa honor society (3.5+ gpa). I did get an AA degree. But not finishing a BS, I wasted a lot of time and didn't get much job experience either (worked for an ISP for awhile). The result is I'm not much better to employers than someone who is right out of high school.
My advice is either have a clear plan about getting your degree or don't waste your time. I'd say go straight to a university and don't waste your time in a community college. Move from home and live on campus or near campus - do not figure you can drive a long way and be a good student. The key words are "waste time", and you can certainly do a lot of that in college. A problem with going to a community college or a small branch campus of a university is that they don't offer all the classes you need to finish your degree. You will end up taking a lot of what you can at the comm college, but then you will have an unbalanced load of classes once you transfer to a university to try to finish. What you want, is to go straight to the university and balance your load of classes - take some hard and some easy and do, I mean DO, make sure you get into the CS intro class as soon as you can and start taking the CS core parallel with the math and science. I took loads of nothing but calc/chemistry and physics type stuff for a couple years or more. That is NOT the way to do it! You will definitely want to take the easier CS stuff balanced with the hard mathematics-intensive classes. This is all pretty much common sense but I didn't follow common sense I suppose!
Now I am unemployed after quiting a job I hated and that any loser could do. It was a job where I saw computer professionals all around me making at least 2x what I was making. If you want to know, it was working as a computer operator at a hospital in a noisy cold machine room just monitoring a bunch of screens. That is not the kind of computer job anyone should want. So, I would say to not accept working as a computer operator in your career because that position is only filled by idiots like me. The real positions to get are working as at least a systems, network, or database administrator. Working as a programmer is fine too, but some programmers have come to really hate their work when it ends up being a job of maintaining legacy code.
All I do now is work on my own website, which nobody goes to: comptechnews
Finally, before you think computers are everything, consider other careers. Computers is a fast moving, stressful, and highly technical field that burns people out. Some people will find a better lifestyle doing something else.Anyway, good luck.
-- CompTechNews Message Board: http://comptechnews.com/ --
AMEN!
-brain
You go boy! Quite possibly the most intelligent post in this whole thread. I wish I hadn't burned all my mod points, as this post is currenty way underrated.
> I'm a little bothered by your association of "interesting things" with "the things that a company will pay you to do."
Okay, how about "interetsing" == "relevant to real people in the real world". You know, medical systems that help sick people, embedded systems that make cars burn cleaner, that kind of thing. Market economics makes this also correlate with "things people will give you money to do". "Companies" are, in fact, groups of people.
Personally, I get involved with system design a lot, and a formal education was very useful in teaching me how to think critically. Don't think I'm saying college is inherently bad, anything but!
Look, much of a job is what the person makes of it. Let's say I give an implementation task to two people, Mary and John. John is a drone and kludges together something that works but is inelegant and will probably have to be redesigned when requirements change. Mary, on the other hand, writes a library of extremely generic, useful routines, uses a bunch of existing libraries, and makes a modular work of art that will last for years. Over time, John will find himself assigned with more mundane tasks and Mary will find herself assigned with more complex, abstract, creative tasks.
My point here is that the employee is at least 50% responsible if they have a drone job.
By the way, I consider myself a coder and an artist. Maybe not a really good artist, but I can at least appreciate and respect great art when I see it. Good code is not *like* poetry; good code IS poetry. One red-flag in my book is when I interview someone and they tell me the "don't want to be a coder". That means this person will not product much creative output.
Part of the Second American Revolution!
The mistake made in the article is that of equating the sysadmin area with all of computing.
Sure, kids from highschool make excellent Windows reboot jockeys. That is more of an indicator of what sysadminning has been reduced to, not an indicator that a university education is not useful.
The fragile networks of PC's have created a large demand for people to act as computer babysitters. The natural result is that bright children can get these jobs.
A sysadmin is basically just a computer user who knows slightly more than the average computer user.
Could these same kids get into a software engineering job? Advertisements for such jobs ask for bachelor degrees, with a hint that a master's degree would be an asset. And there are good reasons for that; you actually have to know something about computing beyond reading the user's manual or online help, plus a couple of books.
These kids are kidding themselves if they think that they are staying ahead of change by working as reboot jockeys. Knowing the user interface layout of the latest network administration tool is not really a form of keeping up with change; it's just a form of accepting software created by those who *make* the change happen.
Ultimately, the money rules.
When there is room for flex, between otherwise equal candidates - I would hope that individual characteristics and past performance are considered - but often the decision is made by people who do not know the candidates personally, and so the degreed person tends to prevail, unless that person is female, which is very unfortunate.
FWIW, I've had the (dis)pleasure of working with a couple of turnips. Education is certainly not a cure for ignorance, but it has great things to offer to the intelligent. People who tend to memorize, rather than understand, should not be in IT - the field moves too fast and no amount of formal education will help them keep up. People who are fiercely intelligent, and can easily abstract experience into theory will gain little at a University - a piece of paper, a few interesting friends, and maybe forced exposure to fields that they would otherwise NOT venture into. Most people fall somewhere in between these two extremes. We tend to memorize what we have to, and understand what we can - and many times, being presented with the theory in a formal way greatly simplifies things. Understanding the theory helps to deal with the special cases we encounter in daily routine, and having a piece of paper to attest to this understanding is very helpful in getting the job, and keeping it down the line.
The turnip I worked with had been at the company for 25 years. I guarantee that, had the company been a fast-moving tech venture, he wouldn't survived a month. Furthermore, if he didn't have a degree, he would have never gotten in the door.
Now, I'm not saying that it is the right thing to do, to hire a graduatated Turnip, but I think his case makes the point quite clearly, don't you? He's got a degree, he's got a job. He's an idiot, but that's besides the point.
The REAL jabber has the /. user id: 13196
The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
What you do today will cost you a day of your life
IT companies pay for smart people. They don't pay for graduates, they don't pay for people with a piece of paper, they pay for "Can you do the job".
While it used to pay to say "my college says i can" it doesn't work that way. 2 kazzillion other people are saying that. Meanwhile an accomplished set of go getters that are both graduates and non graduates are getting these jobs and moving up because of HOW THEY SOLVE THE HIRRING MANAGERS SOLUTIONS.
I wouldn't want to work for a company that needed a piece of paper. That would mean a boring job for me. I could tell by that single mindset alone its probably a boring job, dead end until you get something better then a diploma.
Its alot harder to prove you can. It is alot easier to reiterate what you HAVE ACCOMPLISHED.
I feel sorry for the people who go to school and expect life to solve itself because they have a piece of paper. Those are the blue collar workers of the future.
The point of the fact that now I do have a job and I'm still going to college - does make me question, from time to time, if i do want to go anymore...to college that is... Well, the answer is always yes I do - not everything is based on what you know - but how you know it... some companies will not accept that you know it by experience, however, by knowing it from college or Uni - first! Experience is always considered a plus... Now I'm a web designer - besides having extensive experience as a techie... the company that I work for can take advantage of me - if you know what I mean, but some may not because I do not have anything that qualifies me to be a web designer - alone being a techie... I know that whatever you learn in college/uni us not what you end up using as knowledge at the end - but hey! The "company" calls the shots sometimes...
Great ideas happen at 4am. Bad career moves happen at 4pm...
... I'd like to clarify the points I made originally.
I applaud the folks who did not go to college, and yet have a strong theoretical background in CS. I especially liked kbonin's comments about game developers. I did not mean to imply that such folks do not exist. I meant to say that they are relatively rare in the great mass of IT workers out there. I meant that someone who does not have a college degree is far less likely to know, understand, or care about theoretical CS. (In fact, working in an IT department in a financial firm, I must say that there are an awful lot of people here who only have a vague understanding of computers---but that is a different issue.)
I was not criticizing every single programmer who doesn't have a formal education. I was specifically criticizing the great mass (some of whom may even have degrees) that knows its Perl or its HTML or even its C and can put together some network apps or maybe even administer a UNIX box, but has no understanding of the underlying concepts. These people are worse hires than those coming out of college with this knowledge.
aiken_d's comments about real-life managerial experience show that he must have been dealing with an entirely separate issue: workers who don't want to work. People he worked with who missed deadlines because they objected to an API are deplorable and obviously unsuited for their jobs---but that's a whole different issue. But if he was hiring someone to write up a mission-critical e-commerce system that has to handle thousands of transactions a second, would he hire a high school kid who maybe claims to understand issues in concurrency and real-time systems et cetera or someone who has published research in database and operating system theory and a background in sound software engineering practices?
Finally, to those folks who say that their particular college experience was worthless, and to those who went into CS just for the money: I pity you. I go to Dartmouth, and it's an unbelievable place. The people are sharp, and all of the curriculum is fantastic, including CS. I don't think I've yet met a single CS major who is in it purely for money, and I guarantee there are no graduates who come out with no knowledge of multithreading, who have to consult pseudocode to write up a bubblesort, or who have no idea how to do proofs. Copying is out of the question, because academic integrity is very important (and people who do get caught are quite simply expelled)... And one of the things I got from talking to graduates who work in industry, is that their preparation as computer scientists has made them the top-notch candidates for any IT job.
This post smells of Troll.
-brain
I spent 8 years in the Marine Corps. My job didn't involve computers (it was explosives, mine warfare and bridging), but computing was my hobby. I left the Corps and, by virtue of getting a lucky interview, am working with one of the fastest growing systems integrations firms in Ohio. So why was I hired? Desired skills are: love of computing(ingrained), ability to work hard (military), ability to work long hours as needed (military), problem solving (military), personal communication skills (military), broad horizons (military--travelling ALOT!), desire to succeed (ingrained and military), and ability to learn and accept new concepts (military, believe it or not). I think that you need *something* to provide a range of experience, but it doesn't have to be college. That's just the way most people have done it in the past...
Don't believe anything I say. I crash test crack pipes for a living.
My own case is that I *can't* skip college, just because I have the benefit of a free (as in beer) education, due to my scores in high school, and my economical situation.
As we at my home became even poorer, I had to take a job, and I suceeded in it. But I'm not skipping college, I'm just doing both things.
I'm doing this because I need to. Please think on your real needs before taking one option or the another. Your future depends on this.
--- Sueños del Sur - a webcomic about four young siblings
Wait.. I didn't go to college.... I don't understand this "reverse psychology"
I hope you were kidding... otherwise:
dimwit.
-brain
Thanks for saying that really, that is about as true as it gets.
:-|
A degree in *anything* shows you can learn something to xyz degree of complexity and that you can handle the responsibility of getting that degree, That is why skipping the college part proving yourself can be a very difficult task
Jeremy
Yeah, go on, be useful. God knows the world /needs/ more applications programmers, more web designers, more sysads. You're /important/. Good for you.
Agreed.
For you and I, we want a more creative, subtle role. But that is *NOT* for everybody.
I've never worked as a typist, but I've known some typists who became kick-ass Solaris admins. And after some years, some go on to become Oracle DBAs -- definitely not my cup of tea, but a lot more palatable than typing documents into Word or Framemaker all day for years on end!!
Part of the Second American Revolution!
Then what the hell was Elementary, Junior High, and High School for?? I think that skill-specific learning should start in High School with _LESS_ "well rounding". How well rounded do we need to be before we are "well rounded enough"? As the saying goes, "If you're too well rounded then you aren't very sharp".
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
At your workplace that may be true, but it doesn't necessarily hold true elsewhere. I will grant that it is more difficult to get in the door without the sheepskin, but I disagreed primarily with the idea that a formal education is 'not optional'. It might as easily be conceded that the fact an idiot can make it through the process and obtain a degree proves the opposing point of view.
Our turnip died (literally) within months of taking the job. He had a massive coronary due to his overindulgence in the pastry department. Your term, 'graduatated' would probably be more accurate for these fellows and their ilk if it were modified to 'graduatater' (as in potato [with or without an 'e' if you like]).
--
As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
You have to think long term. Sure, maybe you can get a relatively good job at an internet startup without going to college, but what if that job goes bad, and you are suddenly back in the job market. Then you will be competing against people who have college degrees, which puts you at a disadvantage. You might choose then to go back to college, but you will be competing against younger people then, and again you are at a disadvantage. So, the choice is yours, but remember, it can change your life (for better or for worse) if you skip college to go directly into the job market.
Personally, I went to RPI (upstate NY) for a BS in Computer Science. Was it expensive? Yes. I accrued some debt, and was constatnly worried about money while there. Was it difficult? Hell yes, it was one of the most difficult experiences in my life, intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, and even physically draining. What did I get out of it besides a nice piece of paper signed by the Institute President? Here's my list:
- A bunch of lifelong friends. Sure, they're spread all over the country, but I know I can call my friend in NJ or MA anytime for advice, or in an emergency, they'll fly out here to Seattle on the drop of a hat for me. We keep in touch very often, and we share a common set of experiences and knowledge. We also network for when one of us is out of work, looking for a career change, looking for an investor, or moving to a new area.
- A wide range of education. Besides my programming knowledge, formal training, and exposure to many different facets of computing, I also am more well versed than average on the topics of psychology; pharmacuticals; biology; physics; film theory, cinematography, and practice; musical structure, theory, and composition, with an emphasis on electronic music and the related tools; sociological influences of technology; and a few other things I can't remember off the top of my head. As a result, I can have in depth discussions with my co-worker who was a documentary producer about film. I have a musical side project that is actually generating revenue. Friends, family and coworkers come to me with bizarre questions on a variety of topics, and I can almost always answer their question with a referencable fact, offer an educated opinion, or hold an intelligent and informed discussion. I am the definition of well rounded.
- Leadership experience. Besides leading teams in projects, I joined a co-educational social fraternity. With men and women socially interacting, I got real world experience (since most of the school was decidely male, unlike the real world), and learned how to interact and motivate teams. As fraternity president, I successfully motivated our dwindling brotherhood of around 15 to increase our numbers to over 30, in just one school year. I learned tact and management skills, while building strong friendships at the same time.
- A great career. After four years, I've worked as a consultant for a series of high energy physics industry clients. I've worked in finances, and I now work in the computer game industry. I've learned a lot about what all these industries have in common, how they differ, and how to enhance my future marketability if I decide to move on. I'm a valued employee who can be pulled onto almost any task at hand, and get the job done. My salary is in the $60k range, I have stock options, a 401(k), a Roth IRA, a car I bought new four years ago with all the deckings that still runs great, a large, modern apartment, and more importantly, I have happiness and piece of mind.
I guess the best thing I got out of college was the confidence that I could learn anything, and do anything. And this is not in the arrogant, early-in-the-movie Good Will Hunting sort of way (well, I can read a book and get the same education as you, Mr. How Do You Like Them Apples), but in the sincere, I can put my mind to something, understand it at a pace I set myself, articulate and apply my knowledge, and take it into the real world to increase my set of friends and enhance my future. College set me up for life, and I don't regret going for a single minute.-pjf
You miss the point re: communication skills that is made above. In the workforce you'll have to *DEAL* with people "not on your level" on a day to day basis and try and have a productive teams consisting of people that aren't as smart as you are. That interaction between students, profs, and all the *other* interaction that goes on in college (nudge nudge wink wink, know what I mean?!) is what helps form/build those important team work/shmoozing socializing skills. With that said... I think most of Academia is pretty much B.S. (no pun intended) and so full of itself that it doesn't necessarily fill the function it is supposed to. There are different routes for different people. I've found that without experience it is hard to get a job... without a degree, hard to find a job... but once you get that initial experience or have the small bit of pseudo-credibility a degree pretends to lend you, you can have your foot in the door... *shrug* it's all about securing that first oppurtunity to parlay it to better ones... If you can talk your way into a tech job out of H.S. gob bless yeah... *shrug* YMMV... E.
Build Your Own PVR/HTPC news, reviews, &
Having graduated recently. (2 years ago) I can say, as I think all the college grads here can, that you learn very little about your job there.
You will still need shitloads of OJT and alot of home coding or whatever, depending on your job, to get by in the real world. BUT, college still has an important place. I can say that I didnt learn alot about my job there but I still wouldnt want to not have gone.
I met alot of people and made tons of friends and connections. It also gives you a chance to have some free time. I dont know about you all, I never have had as much free time as I did in college.
In any case, i decided to put off college indefinitely because i couldn't afford it, neither could my parents, and i wasn't ready enough to pick a field to go into, since i'd pretty much be locked in after i finished until i could pay off a massive (probably $50-100k loan)...
College is a lifetime investment. I had similar choice when deciding if I should go to college or even drop out. I was easily making $8-$15/hour doing part-time work during college (95-98). I was also paying thousands of dollars in tution even with a good academic scholarship.
I stuck with college. I'm now $12K in debt. However, the industry and my company has chosen to reward the dedication. I have easily advanced past those workers that choose to enter industry in 95 (after high school).
On another note, who has ever heard of a company having a kegger! :)
-- My Sig
I'm a college sophmore who just about dropped out. I was tempted to work at an Internet start-up. Being really good as a web developer and knowing that that's what I wanted to do I didn't see any reason why I should keep going to school. After being slapped around by some people and thinking about things for myself I came to a realization. What I'm learning in college is not just related to my field (EE), it's everything else English, economics, business, all the leasons in life, etc. that I'm really here for. This may sound corny but, I don't think I'm going to be a better programmer when I graduate but I'm sure as hell going to be a better person. And I'm know that when I'm done I will be able to go much farther in life because of those extra experiences.
when people ask me this question is this. If you just want to do IT and you're not just out of highschool (ie you've been working for several years and going back to college isn't really an option) then learn the latest languages and technoligies and go for the job. But, at the same time I warn them that industry tech changes every 5-10 years and they are more likely to get laid-off when thier knowlege base is no longer needed (Novel anyone?)
However, if you are right out of highschool, don't let that 30k-50k job keep you from going to college. This may seem like a lot, but it isn't. Further, there is a glass ceilling that most non-graduates hit very soon (about 60k in my area). I know, I had all the experiance, worked for a major software company, worked over seas, did consulting, and know the latest tech. Yet, not having a degree always hangs over my head and its hard to get companies to take a chance on you (even with a really good resume) if you don't have a degree. The companies that do offer you jobs take the attitude that they are doing you a favor because they are willing to take that "risk" so they don't offer you as much. And, the jobs that get offered are not very interesting (tech-support, web development, IT, etc). This is why I went back to college
In college you learn how to follow and read specs, how to do quality work, you learn theory (which can be applied to almost any tech), you become more versitile, and you make contacts and inroads into the industry (employers often have job fairs - these jobs often get you started in the industry. Sometimes just getting into the industry is the hardest part). Over all, going to college makes you a well rounded person, it shows that you have people skills, it shows that you are capable of learning and following instructions, it shows that you can work with a bureaucracy, it teaches you practical skills (ie programming, budgeting, etc), and it teaches threory (which I think is often under-estimated). When I was at the JC and just wanted the job I didn't realize these things (what do I need calc for?), but now that I'm a little older I realize how important college is - theory (including calc and CS), communication skills, and a good work ethic are keys to knowlege and a long career
\forall code \in C, \frac{\Delta readability(code)}{\Delta t} < 0
I'm sorry to break it to you, but the Ithaca in Upstate New York is actually spelled "Ithaca". Ithica is a Greek isle.
Secondly, I am able to write a paragraph if I need to, but in the case of a slashdot post, it is not important. Slashdot is an imformal setting where it doesn't matter. The only people who seem to care are snobs like yourself.
Another factor in my decision (as mentioned above, if you actually _read_ what I had to say), was my uncertainty as to _what_ I wanted to study.
Well, I'm glad they taught you "how" to program. I took some Computer Science, and it was neat. I expose myself to a lot of different things, including art and literature. In a way I almost dread going to college for fear I'll end up with an obnoxious and condescending world view similar to the one you are so eloquently expressing.
As for knowing "how" to program, there are several ways to do that. Your method is certainly a valid and proven method, and I'm sure it has served you well. It is not, however, the only viable way to learn. By a combination of self-teaching from textbooks obtained at the local public library, tutoring, users groups, formal instruction, and on-the-job training I have learned quite a few languages, but more important than that is the underlying logical basis of programming that transcends languages, platforms, and paradigms.
Right now (if I were not on lunch break) my employer is paying me to learn as much as I can about Neural Nets, and has supplied me with as many books as I can go through to do so.
My points are in order of importance:
Try to be a little more accepting of other styles learning.
Your reply is dripping with contempt. All it does is go to show your own insecurity.
Don't be superficial. This is in informal forum. The fact that you were so eager to pick on my form distracted you from actually listening to the content.
That's all folks.
---
Play Six Pack Man. I
Of the 40, only 5 dropped out or didn't go to college. Michael Jordan was one of the 5.
--Seen
"I used to be a dilettante. Then I thought I'd try something else for a while."
hmmm - how shall i start with this simple comment - In this darn industry, if you want to excel in this particular expertise you have to keep up-to-date yourself - the college just gives you the most common technology or theories that still apply - get what I mean?
Great ideas happen at 4am. Bad career moves happen at 4pm...
Once you get out there on the job, you can make a few mistakes on your first few weeks, but that is it. If you are working at under 99% you are gone and looking for a place to flip burgers. Think about it, if you had an employee that was wrong about something and messed up the business 30% of the time, how long would you keep that employee?
V
My wife and I had a similar problem in that it seemed too expensive to bother with our postgraduate degrees, the payments on a loan ($80K in our case for both of us) work out to roughly a car payment, which we should be able to handle easily with the increase of income from our new gigs. Then, we're earning that much even after we pay off the loan. For us (we're both geeks), we're looking down the barrel at a 50% pay increase next year, assuming statistics for our school hold.
You'll have to wait a year or so to see how it turns out (we get out this spring), but over time, the payments will go away. The jump in salary won't.
Just something to consider.
ceci n'est pas un sig.
I'm sorry that your college sucked. I'm also sorry that you gave up on college altogether, rather than transferring to a better one.
The major role of k-12 schools is to provide day care and keep kids out of trouble.
That depends on the school/neighborhood. If the mentality of the local public school is like that, then it's a parent's duty to put their kids in private school or move to a better neighborhood.
Both of these points are related. Yes, there are shitty schools out there. But there are also excellent schools out there. Attend the latter.
If you want to learn INTERESTING things, help design a Perl module using XS. Put five different flavors of Unix, NT, and OS/390 on the same network. Design a database schema that will actually have people using it to get their work done.
/. to a capitalist-pig-wannabe (except the Andover.net management team, hehe) but sometimes the most interesting things are those that you may get paid very little to do, or which you will have to do on your own.
If you want to learn BORING things, take that CS361 class on fifty different numerical methods for finding the derivative of a made-up function. Yawn.
Do you really find systems integration and Perl coding more interesting than theoretical CS? Last summer, I coded a scientific web application using Perl; I have coded in C++; I have coded in Visual Basic...but simple coding gets very boring after a while. It is developing the concept of an interesting program or designing a unique algorithm that is cool. Have you ever been really excited about a project and thought about how to best accomplish the task night and day only to be completely bored once you are forced to sit by your terminal and hack out one line of code after another?
I'm a little bothered by your association of "interesting things" with "the things that a company will pay you to do." I am the closest thing on
Sure, most of the stuff in a CS curriculum is completely irrelevant to the jobs most CS graduates get. But, some people do not want to be just another IT drone or coder; they want to work on interesting problems or find a niche that they can build a company around. For the people who want more out of CS than cabling a network, a BS and possible MS/MBA really are necessary.
ByteMyCode.com: A Web 2.0 code sharing community.
If they can get a good job now, why the heck not. Work while the economy is smokin'.
When you can't get the job you want is the time to go to school.
I'm all about continuing education, but folks have to remember that learning for the joy of learning doesn't have to take place in the classroom and learning to qualify for your dream job is stupid if you are already qualified.
I dropped out after my first quarter and started working in the industry. I had to overcome a lot of snobbish attitudes but by proving I knew my stuff I earned the respect of my peers. I routinely act as a mentor and deprogrammer to those who have done the college route.
I'm 30 now and will be retired by the time I'm 35 ( God I love stock options! ). Having the degree might have helped me gain acceptance faster but would only have delayed my retirement.
i saw a commercial about this on TV the other day.
The NSA would like to tell you, don't go to college. College is where all the bad people like intellectuals and free thinkers loiter. If you don't get a education you will be stupid and easy to control. So do uncle sam a favor, stay ignorant!
====
Crudely Drawn Games
Thank you! If you're going to college and learning to program, you /are/ wasting your time and your money. Learning computer science is a completely different and more intellectually rewarding activity. (For me, anyway. YMMV.)
The contrast between computer science and programming is alot like the contrast between physics and engineering -- and engineer only needs to know enough physics to get his (her) job done, and, as many of the anecdotes here indicate, the better ones can teach themselves the new theory they need. The major difference is that for C/S and programming, the output of the experimentation by the scientists is nearly indistinguishable from the output of the engineers. That is, both 'build bridges.'
-_Quinn
Reality Maintenance Group, Silver City Construction Co., Ltd.
As a 4rd year CS student. I can honestly say I would have done pretty well out of high school. But going to college has gave me some great opportunities. I've worked at places like an NSA funded supercomputer center and Sandia National Laboratories. I would have never gotten these opportunities if it wasn't for college. I have also gotten the chance to meet many smart people from all over the world.
College is what you make out of it. If your just going to be some corporate scapegoat so be it. But if you really want to take advantage of all the opportunities and knowledge that a university offers its worth it. Also you'll never be around so many availabe women in your life!
I'll be 22 when I graduate, so it's far from the end of world and I've picked up a lot of good information to take with me. (Unless I get hit by a bus) But I sure wish I would have majored in Physics and minored in CS, instead I majored in CS and minored in Sociology (tons of good looking available women in there). Because in my experience alot of the CS stuff has come easy, physics would have been much harder and taught me much more about actual problem solving. (At my school we have 2 Algorithm classes) apparently more than alot of school teach..
Cheers,
David
Riiiight. So the question is: do you want to learn about the world, or do you want to obtain as much bread as efficiently as possible. Still a personal decision.
College offers the opportunity to take all kinds of adventures, including study abroad in Kuala Lumpur. When looking for a trained person to write code 2000 hours per year, many employers don't value it. But in most fields, the "expanded" person with a college degree is valued more. College is a long-term investment that usually pays off.
Ohio State, baby! honors program, in the opensource group, playin water polo, and gonna drink some beers!
Man, I got accepted to Northwestern too. 3x more money, less fun, less beers, worse education, bigger losers, and further from home. I'm PUMPED for some OSU beers! :)
Mike Roberto
- GAIM: MicroBerto
Berto
I've seen a lot of great comments on the value of college. I think the value of college (or university) goes far beyond whatever you major in. In the 4-5 years you spend as an undergraduate, you'll probably meet more interesting people and form more lasting friendships than you will for the rest of your life. 4 years after graduating from the University of Maryland, I keep in better touch with college classmates in California than I do with high school classmates where I live. The fraternities, sororities, honor societies and campus clubs you join create networks that you'll be able to contribute to and benefit from throughout your career. While such things are possible to do without going to college, if you can afford it, GO!
You've heard this before, but "never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals bui
I recently started a 4 year computer engineering program because I've always though what's important about school in general is that it teaches you how to work. Things like how to manage time effectively, how to get the job done even if you don't want to, how to effectively use available resources, how to ask for help, etc. These are things that do you a lot more good in the real world than a class on C...
This is a hot topic because it deals with two of the three most important things in most peoples lives, intelligence, money and ...ya' know..., wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
I have had the oportunity to work in government at the MTA, and also in industry at Actiant. Now, I have spent a year RIT. I can honestly say that I have learned a great deal more in school that anywhere else. Is it worth the money? Probably not.
Living in a dorm, drinking beer and joining a frat all while supposedly "growing up" didn't make sense for me.
Hehe, you are aparently misinformed about college life. Please disregard what you see on tv and in movies. As for the stren, cold, set-in-his-ways professor that is put across in the media simply isnt true, they would love for a student to challenge them.
College is great for people who can study and apply what they remember.
I think you just described every healthy human on this planet...
College to me adds biggotry to the soul.
Oooo... Big words from someone living in an evil empire.
Someone who did not attend college can not comment on this issue. Why? Because they do not have the experience of going through college so they can't say which is better. Someone who has gone through college can at least speculate on how there life would be different if they removed the things they learned in college.
If you went to college and you feel that all you got was that piece of paper that gets your foot in the door: You went to a crappy college. I received my Computer Science degree from Georgia Tech. It is exactly what it states, the science of computing. Theory, theory, theory. You know what, not only can I get paid big bucks because I can write in whatever the new hot language is, but I can actually write a language, compiler, OS, RDBMS, you name it. I have the tool set in my head to interface any system and learn the guts on any new technology. I understant what is going on in the computer. I have never met someone like that who didn't go to college.
Employers don't look for that piece of paper just for the hell of it. They look for it because it is a quick way to determine what information an employee has floating around in their brain.
I was faced with the decision to stay or drop. I almost dropped. When I was 19 I was pulling in 100k a year programming in Power Builder. I though why the hell should I go to school? Lucky for me I had some people who talked me into staying. If I had not graduated, I wouldn't be the arrogant, egotistical, genius typing before you. I have to deal programmers all day who don't have degrees. IT SHOWS.
Verdict: If you are content with being a simple 4GL programmer who gets a memo and codes a function, then drop. If you want to become an architect and start building systems the way they are suppose to be built, stay in school.
I think one of the good points that the article makes is that this type of arrogance is losing its sting. No longer does the lack of a college education have as significant an effect on gross earnings potential--and the intellectual distinction between those who attended college and those who have not is NOT evident.
The decision whether or not to go to college really boils down to career goals and personal preference--not intellectual ability.
ByteMyCode.com: A Web 2.0 code sharing community.
Shouldn't that be an individuals choice? Why must these things be learned from a University, I can just as easily go to the public library and learn them for free, on my time, at my pace and according to my interests.
So, ah, how'd that education from Bumfuck Community Technical College treat you? Pretty proud of that?
I think this depends on what you are looking for in your career. If you want to always have to keep pace with the latest certifications, and let the technology drive you, then maybe certifications are fine. If, however you want to learn things that are LASTING, and maybe even drive some of the technology, get a Computer Science degree. One of the greatest texts in CS is still Dr. Knuth's The Art of Computer Programming, and that is many years old. But you learn enough computing theory in a computer science education that you will be able to tackle whatever problems come your way through reasoning. The important stuff to learn doesn't change every 5 years. You can totally tell people who didn't go to college from people who did go to college in this industry; the people who never went always think they know everything, whereas the people who went know enough to know that they don't know everything. It's really hard to interact and work with non-college-going-types because they think that the first thing that pops into their head is the right way to do things. I had to quit a job because it was too hard to work with those people. An education matters if you want to do real software engineering.
Typical college graduate engineers get the company pocket protecter, max out there credit cards get married, get a belly and grow old with a company. While not bad, not practical for me. I don't want that.
I guess people perceive me as being cocky because i quit to achieve something for me rather "then the company"
But to me, life isn't about "College" it isn't about "The company" it isn't about what is right or what is wrong to society, its about how you choose to live it.
By being a biggot one way or another you limit your sociall beliefs to one specific group and are considered narrow minded. By not conforming your considered uneducated.
I don't want a world of beuracracy, politicians, war, animal science, biggots, fraters and single minded people. I want a world were society is evolutional instead of so twisted on perception.
Too bad taking control of your life and making decisions on your own pisses off the followers. Some people win, some people loose. Even when you loose you only truely loose when you give up.
I've lost everything several times, and that tought me to be prepaired and cautious. I didn't have to spend 20 grand at school to learn that, it only cost me some cheap furnitre and a girl i shouldn't have dated in the first place :)
I also used to stay up late running a BBS, hacking, engaging in drawn-out philosophical discussions with friends, reading, and such in high school. In fact, I was probably much like you. I had started my own business in high school, and likely could have continued that full-time, or perhaps gotten a job as a programmer. I had a lot of contempt for higher education, and, like you, thought that since I was smart and motivated enough to learn a lot on my own, it would be a waste of money to attend University. Yet I chose to go that route anyway, did very well in first year, and have now become very academics-oriented, a side of me I did not know existed. I am now very happy with the path I chose for myself, and realize how completely misinformed I was previously. To think that I might have drudged through life, never knowing what I was missing out on makes me appreciate this experience much more.
It disappoints me to read these comments on Slashdot along the lines of "I'm smart, so I don't need a University education", or "a lot of University graduates are stupid, therefore a degree is useless", etc. In my experience, this notion is incredibly wrong. I think if you are smart, that's all the more reason to get a degree! It's not about learning to code, it's not about getting a piece of paper. Higher education is about enlightenment, appreciation, and thinking. If you are smart, you'll be a better thinkiner, and be able to better appreciate the field you are studying, leading to enlightenment. I think it's a crime to be too stubborn to take advantage of one's intellectual ability in this way -- you are cheating yourself. A large portion of the most brilliant people on this planet are to be found in academia. I have had the good fortune, through attending a well-respected institution, of being exposed to some of the most brilliant minds in mathematics and computer science. I sincerely doubt that there are many people that smart in the "real world", as such a truly bright individual would simply not be able to find satisfaction in an ordinary line of work. So this begs the question: if academia is good enough for them, why isn't it good enough for you?
Regrettably, I find it difficult to put into words precisely what I am getting out of my University education. I KNOW that when I graduate, my academic accomplishments will be meaningless and insignificant to anyone else in the real world. But I take great pride and interest in them anyway. I don't feel this is born out of any psychological need to justify my chosen path. I actually disliked my first two years of University, and thought it was largely a waste of time (except for the social aspects). Had I not attained top grades, I may even have dropped out. But now I've become more comfortable with the academic life, and am beginning to find the experience more enjoyable and more rewarding as I study my field in greater depth. In fact, I wish I didn't have to stop soon in order to graduate. But when I do graduate, I know that the PROCESS of getting a degree will have made me a better person -- I already see that.
P.S. if you go into mechanical or computer engineering, as I believe you said in another message in this thread, you likely will not experience what I'm talking about. At least at my University, the engineering programs tend to be too practical, and in particular, lacking in intellectual content. You will study a broad range of subjects, but never in much depth. In my opinion, to truly get the most out of a University education, one must study some kind of art, such as philosophy or mathematics (which I would consider more of an art than a science, and computer science is essentially a branch of mathematics). I know several extremely intelligent people who have started in engineering programs, and virtually all of them have hated it. Some are struggling through and not getting much out of their university experience, whereas others have transferred to other programs and begun to enjoy it more. Engineering programs are great if you want to get a job or learn practical things, and you certainly do learn interesting things, but they are definitely not for everyone, particularly those looking to be challenged intellectually.
To return to your point, I did not get any offers of entrance scholarships either. MIT was certainly not an option. Yet I managed to put together pretty decent grades in high school, and be admitted to a University that is highly respected in its own right. Since then, I have been awarded a couple of upper year scholarships, which I didn't need because co-op jobs covered all my expenses anyway. Seriously, it sounds like you're just looking for excuses. There ARE options other than Harvard you realize, and if you have the skills to get a decent tech job right out of high school, then you certainly have the means to cover all of your school-related expenses by working during the summers. The bottom line, is that it's worth it. I would have made hundreds of thousands of dollars by now had I not attended University, but I have no regrets.
Following these three simple steps will land you a nice paying high-tech job while pleasing your parents because you went to college, but it will also afford you a life-time of enriching experience and creative work that high-tech work leaves behind (if it ain't left brained in high-tech then you aren't getting paid a lot)...
It's about gaining life experience. My degree was in journalism, but with a cs minor. I am now a software engineer.
We hired a developer who skipped college and was 19 years old. While his technical knowledge was vast, his abilty to synthesize information was nill. He is no longer with us. We hired someone who was 27 and just learning how to write code instead.
School is a great way to grow up and learn how to be a more complete person. I admit I really didn't learn shit in school. But I learned a lot outside of class that I wouldn't trade for anything.
I don't really understand why everyone is in a rush to get paid. If you are smart and slightly motivated, the money will be there. School is a great time to just mess around and have fun before you have to commit to working everyday. When else do you have absolutely no responsiblity?
So I say go to school if you can, you won't regret it after you are done.
The point is, we are very rounded individuals, and have our future in mind. The experience of the tech industry is irreplacable, as is the experience gained by a college degree.
We're young, not stupid.
~Marshall
--
Homer: "No beer, No TV make Homer something something";
Marge: "Go crazy?";
Homer: "Don't mind if I do!"
arcane for life
Knapsack problem: An integer program of the form, Max{cx: x in Z^n+ and ax 0. The original problem models the maximum value of a knapsack that is limited by volume or weight (b), where x_j = number of items of type j put into the knapsack at unit return c_j, that uses a_j units per item.
Bin packing problem: Partition a given set of integers, {c_1,...,c_n}, into bins such that the sum of all integers in each bin does not exceed the bin capacity, say b, so as to minimize the number of bins required.
You could spend $120,000 for fours years at a good college or spend 30 seconds on a search engine to find what they are talking about.
-Dan (I'm a college Sophmore by the way)
The college I dropped out of made similar claims (90% placement rate). However, I took a closer look at the stats. 90% of that 90% had 'placements' in jobs totally unrelated to the diploma (in Computer Engineering) - Boston Pizza, Sport Check, Safeway, Kmart...
And I bet they were serving pizza, not building embedded systems
Wasn't a junior College, it was the University of Georgia. Which isn't a BAD school. Not all of us can afford Harvard or an equivelant ivy league school. And when you sleep through high school so you can stay up late reading Tolstoy and running a BBS and learning things that actually interest you, you don't usually end up with much in the way of academic scholarships.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
I am in a similar situation to you. I am a freshman Computer Engineering concenctrator at Brown (acutally almost at Cornell :)). Oer the summer I took a job in a software firm. They offered a deal to not attend college and stay with them over the next (this) year. For me, college is so much more then learning things which can probably be self taught (especially cs) I came to college for more social reasons. I do not want to be the guy sitting in his cubicle programming for 16 hours a day, who forgot the english language in favor of c.
As I begin classes I often ask myself why I want to do work 20-30 hours a week without pay rather then work about 40 hours a week and get paid a lot. I think the one motivator is money, unfortunately :(. I have a much higher chance making more money with a college education under my belt then just going straight into the industry. I can also pursue other careers if the tech industry someday becomes (gasp) boring to me. If someone offered me 6 digits a year with the prospect for more to not goto college, I would without hesitation. That is, unfortunately, not the case.
I dropped out of college when I was 19 to move to NYC and work for Citibank's trading floor technical support group. Partially inspired by Bill Gates dropping out, I realized I had a sweet job opportunity that I shouldn't pass up. I had to work hard to keep up. But it sure paid off - my resume looks beautiful because of my time there. When I left college I felt I wasn't learning anything. And the things I learned I forgot about within months. My motto became: if you learn something on your own, you know it. If you learn something by having it crammed down your throat, your professor knows it. Now, about six years later, I'm working for eCollege.com. eCollege is an online distance education ASP. We host a plethora of courses ranging from small community colleges to large well known universities. How ironic! And how convenient! I can access the content of these courses offered by the greatest minds on earth at my leisure. I do believe I'm learning a wider range of topics than any college education could offer me. Last point: not having a degree motivates me. It makes me work harder than my fellow employees. It pushes me because I have to prove myself over and over again. I've noticed this in a programmer friend of mine that only has a high school degree. He is super skilled technically - a huge asset to our company. The college educated folks seem lazy compared this friend mine. My opinion: college is an antiquated rite of passage that can be skipped if you're smart enough.
Children, remember, there are no stupid questions - only stupid people.
Who cares. Everyone knows the only thing that really matters is that you are an MCSE :)
I had a prof. who summed it up succinctly, he said that:
"College is a mechanism for rationing the good jobs".
He went on to elaborate that it wasn't terribly important what you learned. Rather, it proved to an employer that you had the "right stuff". That you could make a long-term commitment to something arduous which offered no short-term payoff.
This is a good character trait to have if you are an engineer (as opposed to a hacker). For example, the project I am heading now is huge, it's been in development for two years and still has about a year to go. This obviously requires focus and commitment to long-term goals.
Sure we need self-taught hackers to kludge up web pages and such. That's what the dot.com mania has been fueled by. But don't underestimate what a degree means in the scheme of things.
-- "I was as confused as a baby in a topless bar"
TTFN,
Rick D.
I myself completed a rather prestigous university in Britain with a first class degree and still can't answer any of the problems you mentioned offhand. Reason? I did Electronics rather than CS. Does that make me a worse programmer (I work as a programmer) than you? I very much doubt it my friend. You know your Knuth stuff whereas I could just sit and implement a LPC from the top of my head. Don't discredit the script kiddies. Someone somewhere wants to hire them and some people jump at it. Good for them since otherwise they'd be sweeping sidewalks or serving burgers. If you're jealous because you're out of work (are you?) wait a little and you'll find your perfect employment just like they've found what's perfect for them.
Software industry is not all level. There are 'sweat shops' and 'blue collars' here as well. Once you've worked for a few companies you'll see what I'm talking about here. Most people in most industries will insist they are absolutely indispensible even if all they do is empty vending machines. You should raise a bit above their bragging.
There is always be someone out there more clever than yourself even so don't get too smart, boy. If the perl kiddies upset you because they scream and shout how 3l337 they are, notice that you've just done the same thing albeit on a different intelectual level.
For every example of a successful person that went to college there is 10 people that I can give that are failures, I can do the same every person that didn't go to college. The fact is it's the person and their choice of their path that determines if the person will be successful, not where they receive their knowledge.
Sure, college is a place that can develop a higher level of knowledge and of course it will prepare people to do better, but there is no reason to say someone that choose not to go to college, will be a failure.
The truth is, currently most tech jobs doesn't require a level of knowledge that can't be achieved outside of what can be learned in two year reading every book in the computer section of a good book store. Why should anyone that don't have funds to waste go to college?
My parents aren't rich. I'm also the youngest of four. My parents worked their butts off to get my sisters through school. By the time it was my turn to go, my parents couldn't afford it. If I went to college, I would still be in school, and I would still be broke, and I would most likly have a huge loan hanging over my head. Going to college wasn't the best choice for me. I had a chance to get into a high paying job if I just applied myself to teach myself. As any other smart geek, I don't want to waste my time going to school for twenty hours and then working 40 hours at the local supermarket.
I'm currently 22 and making $60k a year. I run a large network for a dot com. The CTO has seen everything in his 30 years and have told me time and time again that I know my stuff. Sure, I don't know everything. Maybe if I went to college I would know more about calculus, but it doesn't matter right now. My job is make sure the network is up. It's my job to make sure the servers are running at top speed. It doesn't matter if I know Knuth-Morris-Pratt string matching algorithm, heck I don't know what it even is! How would that help me run the network today? It simply won't. Will knowing that put money in my pocket today? no.
I'm not degrading a college education, but degrading someone because they don't have one is wrong. In the next year, I will go to Georgia Tech, and I will get a BSCS by the age of 30 and a MSCS by the age of 35. It is my goal.
I can afford it now and keep my life style. I won't have to worry about eating roman noodles, if I will get a job when I get, or even question why I'm sitting in the class. If I won't to take less clesses I can. I can leave school for a year if I want. I will be in control of my own education, not the goal of monetray gain. I will still have my job and my skills. I won't even have to worry about getting an "A" or "E" like my friend today. Next year, when I do go, I'm going becuase I want to, not becuase I have to.
When I am the lead of a large datacenter, knowing Linear Algebra or Statistics and Probability will help me, but today, it won't.
MarNuke
MarNuke
This is a serious matter. When you're young, a kid, you need to go off to college for three important reasons. One, is to do drugs. Smoke lots of pot, and take hallucinogens. If done correctly, this will guide you to understanding the true nature of perception, and give your ass some serious perspective. The other reason to go to college is to have lots of sex with disreputable girls. This will bring you closer to the realization of the fleeting nature of sex, and the true value of romantic love and dedication. Finally, reason number three is to GET SOME CULTURE and learn about shit that has nothing at all to do with your job or making money, so that you're an interesting person, not a worthless cog whose life and mind are interchangeable parts. There will be PLENTY of time to make fat wads of cash through 80-hour a week hi-tech drudgery later, when you graduate. Enjoy a little freedom when you're young. Such times won't come around again.
Evil is bad. Be good.
Hi!
I've been on one side of the medal (dropped college level education) for 4 years now and the other side of the medal starts to show.
More I work more of the challenge the work proves to be and more I feel the lack of formal (mostly theoretical) education shows. If I gain it in time (self study) then it's OK, if I don't the project goes down the drain faster so fast you cant even say FUBAR. Most of the stuff I learn in this way is exactly the stuff I despised 4 years ago and skipped college because of.
Theoretical knowledge helps nothing or little when confronted with work that involves "hacking" in one form or another. In these cases only experience counts and more you work more you can solve in shorter time.
Once you get past that threshold between discovering how things work to the side that demands declaring how things will work you have to be extraordinary genius (Linus comes to my mind) to survive for extended period of time without making colossal mistakes. Some will hit the barrier sooner some later.
I would personally advise everyone to read recent interview with Brian Kerninghan co-author of the C language and Kernel Traffic #85, topic no. 4.
To boldly invent more hot water.
And as the headlines explain, the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer and the middle class is disappearing. Poor people have historically had to fight for the right to be educated. If you had trouble affording it, then for you maybe the fight is lost. But you should go back, in the evenings or take a couple of years off when you can and just do it. Take that great money you are making and put it back into yourself.
I've met too many people who have given up on higher education whose ideas about anything important are just worthless or just parroting of whoever they let do their thinking. You owe it to yourself to develop your own ideas.
Please tell me you don't really believe that...
Where I work, the consulting firm sent us a relative newbie -- but he's got an MCSE. He's constantly frustrated with NT because it almost never acts the way they said it would in the book.
--
--
"I personal[ly] think Unix is "superior" because on LSD it tastes like Blue." -- jbarnett
College is still the best place to meet eligible,
educated members of the opposite sex.
I just recently made the decision to skip college all together. In fact.. I never had a senior year of High-school.. I took the California High-School Proficiency exam.
I'm now living as a Network Engineer for MCI WORLDCOM in the Private Network Managment Center. This is not what one would call a dream job, nor a job that brings to me what I think my future life will need. However, at 18, 60K a year is a damn good place to be.
I don't think that I am missing out, by not going to college. First of all, i never liked school. Also. Not many schools that I could have gotten into with my decisions, would be efficient in teaching me technology.. Technology changes on such a regular basis (yet at the same time, on such an irregular basis). And not many schools have teachers that are flexible enough to change their whole curriculum plan, at a moments notice. Most teachers are not devoted enough to thier job, and most tech teachers teach more than technology.
If you think that i'm missing out? i'd love to debate this with you. AOL name: Psionic Pulse. e-mail: Psionicpulse@mac.com
-Erik
MCI Worldcom
I agree with what you are saying in regards to crtitical Computer Science education for low-level programming positions. But when doing web-based work, one is working at such a high layer of abstraction that the focus is much different.
And what's wrong with a 'teach yourself perl' book? Orielly has some great books that have taught me a lot about a very wide variety of technologies. Books are a very legitimate form of education - sometimes much more then being taught by a prof's AID (and a lot cheaper).
I would like to think that my abilities are well beyond that of a "geek". With my "web millions", I have built my own recording studio for music composition and video production. Do I have to go to school to learn how to compose music??? How robotic! Some of the best composers (with or without college degrees) purposely stay away from music courses as to not fall into a "rut of regurgitation(sp? shoulda gone to college...)".
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
I being a Freshman (Sophmore credit-wise) at the Colorado School of Mines see this from the inside... CSM is one o the top Engineering schools in the country (Teaching techniqes have taken from here to places all over the world) The difference is pretty easy to see if you simply look at avg. starting pay for grads... the avg starting pay (this avgs ALL fields from Metallergical Engineering to Com Sci) is 45k and placement rates at 98% within six months... That is just plain impressive... Also College degrees encompass much more than the small fields that IT schools offer. I personally am dual-majoring in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science. And I'm really not trying to be egotistical but you put my resume next to that person who got that IT education and there is no comparison. And even stranger I plan on going to grad school and study Computer Engineering and Physics(always been a love of mine). I will end up with a MUCH greater overall education and experience. If I complete my plans I end up with an EXTREMELY marketable resume and my career path is limitless, from programmer to researcher to management I will be qualified to do it all... and if I simply decide to minor in business I'll be set... I feel that a university education will simply take me Much further than not to have one
"Madness and Genius are separated solely by Degrees of Success." -Unknown
Sadly, these 18-year old high school kids are probably more likely to get hired than a 23-year old college graduate for some jobs. The reasons are that (1) they don't need to be paid as much, and (2) that they know all the latest buzzword languages (Java, C#, Delphi, etc.). The college kid will have the background to pick up this buzzword crap quickly, but will not necessarily have it on his resume.
I think this sums up what I mostly hear from pro-college types. It also demonstrates how a good education can make one a lot better able to deal with theory than practice.
This guy (who I have nothing personal against) seems mystified/irritated that companies are more interested in hiring webmasters who can write CGI scripts than "proper" computer people who can write one paragraph informal proofs of Turing's Halting Theorem.
Guess what: I hire people for tech jobs. I work a tech/management job. And I personally want people who can write CGI scripts, and who know the latest buzzword languages. I have the utmost respect for academics, and people who love CS for the sheer joy of it. Without those people, the industry I work in wouldn't exist. They are undeniably better educated, better coders, and have a better understanding of how this stuff works than the $70k/year webmasters I work with and hire.
But I don't need Turing's Halting Theorem proved (or disproved, or debated, or whatever). I need software developed. And yes, I have worked with some college grads who are fantastic. But I've also worked with others who think that doing actual, practical work is somehow dirty or beneath them. On the whole, my experience with college grads leads me, as a hiring manager, to be neutral with regard to degrees.
Bottom line: as far as I'm concerned, I care about how well people do their job. Having the college experience may make people better coders, but it may also make them prissy academics who think that information technology should be treated as an art, not a business, and who will miss deadlines and simply not *do* their job because they have philosophical objections to some 10 year old API's structure. On the whole it's a wash.
So get a degree if you're into learning Turing's theorems. If you keep your feet on the ground, you may even be employable after that. But don't be upset if you fall in love with the cerebral purity of ivory tower CS, then graduate to make less than CGI scripting webmasters.
</metarant>If I wanted a sig I would have filled in that stupid box.
One of the main problems with going to college is the fact that it becomes a detriment to getting a job in the IT industry, not an asset. People don't want to hire you for the high-paying jobs, because you have no experience, and you're knowledge is so far out of date, and they don't want to hire you entry-level, since you've got a four-year degree, and they don't think you'll stick around for shitty pay.
I've been called a "Fucking Dick" by better people than you.
Or spend 80 bucks on a book that willt each it to you so that you can reuse it in a useable fashion..
I agree that college as a whole is a very learning, growing, and conditioning thing to one, but what I don't get is the simple formula: Get a book, listen to a teacher, and perform the tasks in the book or by the teacher. It seems that one COULD learn everything needed at home via the internet, books, or friends/relatives. What college gives is the "discipline" needed to force yourself to learn what is necessary for your field. I do find something funny though; I have a couple friends who go to a major university for their CS majors and they can code some feirce $hit in C++. The problem is they don't make it part of their lives so they don't know a d@mn thing about computers; they are in it for the $$$ only. I agree with using college as a stepping stone if it is aligned with ones own 'True Will' and don't let (what Aldous Huxley called) the "filters" be imposed upon your subconscious. Mmmkay...
How can people be so stupid as to not go to college? I cannot see why college would be such a bad thing to go to. Oh yeah, you have to spend 4 years of your life(maybe more) LEARNING. That is such a horrible thing to do. Think about it this way. If you can get, and this is just an example it does not reflect real life salaries, 100k a year by skipping college. Now what do you think you will get if you GO TO college? College is also good for expanding your knowledge beyond your current status. Even if you know a lot about what you do, you can always learn more. Take that into consideration before your tie a noose around your a life and hope that it can live long enough to cut itself off. -Dest
Insist on bringing up free software in the middle of your classes.
GOD I hate those kind of people.
Rant on your spare time, but don't waste my time in class showing off, promoting your agenda, or whatever. Sit there and shut up unless you have a real question and are not trying to upstage the professor.
-----------------------------
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Indeed. There's also a big difference that can be seen in how well you implement subject/verb agreement.
I'm mixed about this whole debate. I, unfortunately, left college to pursue a career. My mistake I think, but I do pretty well without it. As a matter of fact, there are very few people in our company, a small consulting company, that do actually have a degree. Even one of the principles does not have a degree. Now what I've seen are several dynamics in the way things go. We have 2 or 3 programmers, right out of college. I would say that their coding is below par. But I can't say mine was any better 3 years ago when I started coding. However, our Vice President, has a degree in Math, and it shows. He's an extremely hard working individual that has trouble communicating sometimes. Mainly because of a large amount terms that he uses that he assumes others have. Now, of the top five people consulting, I think 2 have degrees. One of which has been in the industry for at least 10 years and is a wonderful coder. The nongraduates though seem to have an essence, a certain unnamed something that puts them ahead of the rest. I know with me, its a thirst that went unrecognized for several years. I find myself pouring through textbooks day after day just to get what I think I need to know. Its an odd existence. However, while I might not be stuck, I am unwilling to stop my work to go back to college just yet. I have a lot of opportunity ahead of me. Now with that said, what I think I will be missing most about college is the chance to ask questions and to understand things out of my industry. For instance, I am currently reading David Copperfield. I have about a million questions that I've been wondering about since picking up the book, but without a teacher or even fellow classmates to discuss it with, where does that leave. Probably wrong in my assumptions. The point of all this is that, it seems to me that college does not make the man, the man makes the man. But college provides a chance for you to make yourself so much more. Hopefully, sometime soon I will be able to go back to school. Maybe find a better more challenging school that will take me. Here's hoping.
Where exactly do you get this idea? People in technical fields are not any smarter than people in non-technical fields. How can you say then that they are able to pick up something from a completely different area of study more readily than someone with, say, a History background?
... And most highly curious people are self-motivated learners. They themselves will teach themselves humanities subjects like communication, philosophy, history, etc., if they so desire. The most interesting question is always "Why?" I don't know any people I consider intelligent who do not have at least better-than-average communications skills. I know a lot of people who consider themselves intelligent and supposedly are 3R337 pr0gr@mmerZ who have awful communications skills, but believe me, they are not the people we should really be worry about. There are lots of pretentious people in reasonably good positions because the people hiring them haven't a clue!
And as for self-learners... I'm one. Which is one good reason I always loathed school. Tthe fact that I lived in a reasonably well-off neighborhood and the parents put pressure on the school system to include their very average, it not below-average, but generally well-behaved kids in the so-called Gifted classes didn't help. (Picture a bunch of 13-year-olds reading Shakespeare in English and the board question saying something about whatshername being skeptical of Lysander's love for her, and all the whispers... "What does skeptical mean?" Shit, the little CHEX boy knows what "skeptical" means). I eventually convinced my mother -- a high school teacher -- to let me 'drop out' and homeschool myself in the middle of my freshmen year. She knew how bored I was and what a struggle it was to drag myself out of bed to go to school -- as it was, I missed about 30 days a year anyway. And still got no C's. Tells you a lot about what kind of effort it takes to get good grades, doesn't it?
So, look at me now. I'm 16 and I just secured my first book contract, a how-to book, for $5500. Not much, but the book won't be much either, and $5500 for 10 weeks of work isn't anything to whine over. That's not the point, though -- it's my ticket. A ticket I wouldn't have gotten had I not left school and had time to run my own web site (and support myself enough from it to move out). For what it's worth, the publisher approached me and not the other way around.
I'm going to have a fun time giving one to the English teacher who gave me a B because I was late often and she wanted to "motivate" me. Despite the fact that I was the best writer and arguably most intelligent student of the entire class.
("Motivate this, bitch!")
So in conclusion... school isn't for everyone. I can damn well tell you I didn't get my language or people skills there, my entrepreneuring spirit or, really, just about anything good about myself. So I'm a high school drop-out, supposedly, and I'm not going to college unless I have to, certainly not full-time.
(PS - I haven't taken college courses myself, but almost all of my friends are college age and they have. Let's just say that colleges obviously don't care if you learn or not when they give you professors who don't speak good english, especially if they're teaching English-like courses such as mythology. This guy didn't know how to conjugate plural verbs, and my brother -- getting his PhD in particle physics, btw -- had a Chinese professor who didn't speak it at all. In the US, very few colleges seem concerned with actual learning, and more about processing meaty pulp. I know it's different in other countries.)
---- My Design, Code, Ruby on Rails blog: http://www.slash7.com/
HAHAHA, that reminds me of my job!
Who needs it? Sure, you can learn lots of stuff you'd most probably otherwise miss out on, but college isn't something you need for a job. I dropped out of school because I was stupid, something I regret even tho I wouldnt be where I am now. From there, the next step was college (ok, before all you americans start asking how the hell I got into college after dropping out of school, DON'T. All I'll say is the UK education system isn't a stubborn little twig up the ass that depends solely on something thats a load of crap anyway (aka SAT's, highschool diploma and all the rest) I've explained the whole thing too much anyway. College was boring, I didn't learn anything new.. ooh, Microsoft Office, boy this exciting.. ooh, can I *really* get to make a database in access?! YAY! I failed that course because I irc'ed too much. So here I am now, dropped out of school. Not one of my smarter decisions, and I failed college for not completing the course in time.. Now I work for one of the largest ISP's in the UK, healthy wage earning twice as much as some of my counterparts who completed everything, and infinetly more than my friends still in college. BUT, the MOST important thing, I'm doing something I love, something that teaches me something new everyday and something that makes me feel like *I* am making a difference. I may have missed out on a little bit of education, but I landed on my feet. I do actually plan on going back to college, maybe university some time, to quench the thirst for knowledge, but I think I'm doing fine where I am now. -- from the US perspective, shouldn't it be 'you need a job for college, not college for a job' (forgot to mention, we dont pay extortionate prices for education in the UK... HAH!)
Ideally, college has very little to do with being trained for a job. Rather, it's the way society passes on to you, as an individual, what society as a collective has learned from the past. When you begin college you're on the brink of adulthood (in the psychological, not legal, sense), and so are the other thousand-or-so people you'll be spending the next four years with. You 've been shaped by your parents and peers and experiences, but you're still maleable. The purpose of a university education is to expose you to complex philosophical, historical, and psychological issues that will shape the way you approach every subsequent experience. You read Lao Tzu to learn alternate ways of viewing the world; you study the memoirs of Auschwitz survivors in order to prevent history from repeating; you take a genetics course so that you can make an intelligent contribution to how your country approaches the advances offered by the biotech industry. You don't go there to learn C++.
A hot job market is nothing to be spit at, but there's no substitute for what college offers to the 18-year-old. Some people clearly feel that it's a waste of four years--four years during which they could be working and making money and getting on with their lives--but the truth is that if you have the opportunity to go to college and live in a dorm and eat crappy dining hall food and write papers on arcane subjects, you have to be pretty stupid not to jump at it, because you're never going to have a chance like that again (whereas you have the next 50 years to work). You can always choose to do college later in life, but when you have a family, when you're 15 or 20 years older than all the other students, when you're also working full-time, and when your personality is set in stone, the experience isn't the same.
On a more general note, I fear for the country that doesn't urge its young to get a liberal arts education, because that country will have to reinvent the wheel with each generation. Culture with a capital "C" sets us apart from all other species--it offers the collected wisdom of hundreds of generations, rather than the knowledge of only the living--and universities are the best mechanism for passing this wisdom on to a new generation. Without people who have learned from the mistakes and triumphs of previous generations, we're really no better than a school of goldfish swimming round and round in a really big pond.
Maybe in the respect that they clean up what other idiot's trash, but someone who can be a good sysadmin is a lot better than your dime-a-dozen grunt programmers.
PS - And lots of people with college degrees have worse English skills than he does. Big woop.
---- My Design, Code, Ruby on Rails blog: http://www.slash7.com/
One problem with going to college at a young age is the lack of expierience. Some professors are full of shit. Without enough life expierience some people might be misled or confused but these shitheads. After all students are there to learn from the teachers. Younger students might not think to challenge what their teachers are saying. It takes expierience to build an acurate model of reality. IMHO a university is not the best place gather data about reality in order to build that model. In fact I believe that many students come out of universities with wholly warped ideas about the world and it takes them lots of pain and time to reconfigure their models, as it were.
"It's because they're stupid, that's why. That's why everybody does everything." -Homer Simpson
*Blink* Why didn't I think of that? I think I'll do that. Thanks :)
--
Start saving now, it's a long future!
A few O'Reilly books can teach you more for less, as far as I'm concerned. And, as an added bonus, you can learn that way naked. So, are we going to see you naked reading O'Reilly books? Darn. No O'reilly books. ;)
oh look, its a multiphasic chronoton particle generator, with optional dual airbags and a heizenberg buffer modulator!
There is no doubt that they will fail to create "intelligence," but I'm looking forward to seeing chatbots and IMbots made using this neural network interact with unsuspecting victims...
ByteMyCode.com: A Web 2.0 code sharing community.
Face it, college is for doctors. The technology field works far too quickly for such "legacy" educational systems like colleges to be effective. If you speak of necessary "practices" & "theories" that need to be understood, keep in mind that most standard practices & procedures CHANGE in the tech field as fast as the industry moves.
While it's easy to picture most college professors as sitting in their ivory tower of knowledge, with crufty 1980's textbooks and know-how, a simple slashdot search shows that there's quite a bit of brand-new shiny innovations coming from acadamia. Do you think that we could have gee-whiz languages like Java (and its derivatives) without some serious formal education and research? Distributed computing? AI?
True again... BUT, how many individuals are at college currently working on such projects? Yes, I do give credit where credit is due, but for the average-joe college-goer, this is out of reach. I should have made my view clearer.
Hands-on training with the products you'll be using and want to know about is the way to go. If you want to learn about philosphy, go to a library.
It is if you're just looking for employment. For me, and I think the original poster would probably agree, the well-roundedness isn't necessarily for my employer, but for myself. I'm on my sorta lunch break right now at work, but other than now and 6 hours from now when I get home, I have zero free time to just hang out at the library and ponder the existence of the universe. Screw what that means to my employer, I cut code for them. If they want to discuss 19th century artwork or modern poetry over a beer, well, ok, but I don't think it'll effect my code.
Again, I agree... but the topic was whether these are useful in a workplace. The answer is probably no. I too am strapped for time like everyone else, but you *do* need to make time for yourself, even if it involves saying "no" to people. It took me a long time--and a serious burnout--to figure that simple fact out. But, now I'm much happier because of it. Like they say, "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger".
Anyway, I gotta take a huge piss right now.
Too much info.
-brain
The degree is only a rubber stamp that says you at least did your time and should be useful. Unless you approach college as a networking opportunity, you can do it on your own and save a lot of time and money.
Check out Regents College (my Alma Mater :) ) for a quick example. This is only one among many many accredited university degree programs available to the motivated person.
I've never had a negative comment about my 'distance learning' degree, and I got it ten years ago before the Internet made it vogue to talk about DL.
You don't have to go to a university to become educated, that's just the mainstream approach. You can learn anything you desire on your own or with a little help. Be creative and find someone to mentor you.
In short, if you want to be an educated person, you can:
- Attend a university and be spoon fed
- Learn on your own and challenge the tests.
Pick one.The /. people reading this are among the most able to learn on their own. Take advantage of your natural ability and get that degree -- but do it on your own terms.
You won't regret it.
Peace.
JET FUEL -- It's what's for dinner...
First of all, as I see it, there are two important differences: going to, say, Dartmouth vs., say, Bunker Hill community college; and going to College (period) vs. graduating with a degree in CS.
... sorts, data structures, and the like).
As for the first distinction, I honestly have to say that there are quite a few colleges that don't teach crap about CS. I learned more from books and my high school AP course then the combined course load of many of these outdated institutions.
On the other hand, going to an Ivy or a universities like Duke, Stanford, etc. can be very beneficial. First of all, ignoring all CS aspects, these colleges provide you with two things: a stamp that says Joe Shmo graduated Harvard or whatever, and a network of capable people in your field (something invaluable in CS and most other fields).
Now right now, stamps and networks probably aren't as big of a deal as they used to be (you can climb up to the same height in four yours with out throwing away 100K for it). But, as I see it, college also functions as insurance, in case of a recession or what have you, those of us with that stamp, that network, and that education are going to have an easier time of switching fields or staying in CS (as happened in the 80's recession).
Of course, a good college also provides you with a great basis for knowledge. It's doubtful that anyone is ever going to have to prove Tulane's completeness theorem. BUT, it IS important to learn such proofs because of the way they shape your mind. CS is ALL about a way of thinking about problems and a good education in EE, Mathematics, Music, and a have a dozen other fields will give that to you. Moreover, a piece of paper that says that YES you, Joe Shmo, did indeed study blah at Dartmouth is utterly irrelevant.
From personal experience, I know that in Boston (as well as most of the other major CS hubs in America) Russian immigrants (most of whom had never even seen a computer, but had a great mathematical background) have risen to the top echelons of the CS profession, for this very reason. Having a good mathematical background, their minds had the necessary structure to easily fit into the CS field.
Languages and ideas come and go in CS, but it's a certain mental state that always remains. That's what college tries to give you in my mind (as well as a whole arsenal of tools you can use
Of course, you can gain this from college or you can try to hack together on your own and in my mind if you do it on your own, you deserve a hell of a lot of respect. Yet, with the CS mentality, the network, and EVERYTHING else (none CS) that college gives you, I think it's easily worth the four years; and maybe even the ridiculous 120K it might take from you.
I got a CS degree, and most of the skills I use on a day to day basis I learned on my own outside of classes.
:)
Ahem, on your own?
Actually, I do love my job... and by "tired of work" I meant when I have the money to actually do what I want to do. I WANT to get a degree, I like my job, I consider myself lucky to have gotten it at 19, and I consider it to be the best thing I have going for me right now. I want the degree simply because that's what I want though. I will probably tweak out within the next five years and decide that I can't deal with the simple amount of stress in working Information Services (there are a total of 8 people in my department, 3 for PC tech) for a company of 600 people. That's when I'll take a break from the working world and get the degree... when I feel that I'm ready to leave the work for a while and get the "education" required.
Blah blah blah!
.. etc.
Lots of people always saying:
1. People you will meet, experiences, enrichment, person rounding
2. Experiences that will last a lifetime.
3. Best opportunity for spouse meeting.
Now what I want to know is what if anything is in it for me & my type , seeing as:
1. In 4 years of highschool I never left my house except to attend school. I did not really associate with anyone, and I don't see any reason for this (college) will be any different? (In fact in 10th and 11th I probably spoke no more than 400 words out loud--300 of which were an essay of some sort) Not unless I change--which I don't see much reason to do.
2. Uhmm.. Sitting in my dorm room typing away like I have since 5th grade. NOTHING is new except I have a faster processor. I would have the same 'memories' if I attend or not.
3. No. No. No. I've tried prostitutes and I can't afford that anymore. I've considering castration ever since I found out the life-extension factors involved. beer drinking worthless whores who cant code or comprehend anything i want to discuss damnit
All of these freaking people do is talk about and do--dring beer and get high. I never was able to appreciate sitting here and believing a line of bash script was 'God' for a few hours and other rediculous pot-induced delusions. It also sucks to have to waste several hours waiting to get sober so you can read your favorite magazines and slashdot and comprehend...
I can vouch for ALL of the people out there that decided not to go to college. And hell, I work at Kroger!
The largest problem with those that go to college is... well, everything, honestly. Why did YOU take up a secondary education? Honestly? That's right... you can admit it...
More Money.
I guarantee that, in a survey of 5,000 college-bound teens, at least 4500 of them will give that same answer. No one goes to a college/university to learn. Why? Because you DON'T.
College, people, is the same trite nonsense that you went through for 12-13 years. Boring, repetitive assignments, subjects which you care nothing about.
"But what about those that go and learn that they enjoy (X)?" The answer to that is simple - those people are the ones that spent their school-lives listening to the teachers and not the books. The same as most of those going into secondary, public school teachers are, at the majority-point, only teaching to make a living. Why? Because most states have severely lacking teaching requirements. Alabama, for instance - a state driver's license and a high-school diploma. That's all.
Everyone had a teacher that 'touched' (for lack of a better word) them in one way or another. I'm willing to bet also that those teachers were not teaching the subjects they WANTED to teach, but instead were teaching "assigned" classes. Language teachers, for instance, do NOT wish to teach Math classes. Yet it happens every day. People who care more about Pythagoras than a theorem. Is it wrong that they care more about a man or a time than an equation? No, of course not. That's what sparked them to become a teacher in the first place. They should teach it. In context.
My first day of college: I walk into class, sit down, and get handed a sheet outlining the "attendance policy." Attendance policy? Is this high-school again? I'm not paying someone $4,000/year to tell me what I can and cannot do. I'm paying them $4,000/year to give me a small slip of paper that says exactly what I knew before I gave you the money. Wow. I can learn.
Gosh. What an experience. I've just paid someone to put me through complete rubbish. What happened to "Come if you want, all I care about is what you know"? THAT is college. THAT is caring. Not giving a student an assignment for the sake of work. You work for the sake of learning, not to have something to do.
I walk into my math class. We are handed a pre-test. I see square roots. This is a college math class. Trig? Naah. Calculus? Nope, not here. Review. Review. Review. Why do I hate math? I've just given you all three reasons. Here's a hint: They start with an "R."
What college was this? I'm not telling you. This could be Harvard. This could be MIT. This could be Cowlick State University. It doesn't matter. All colleges and universities in the "good ol' USA" are the same. If I could go to school in Europe, I would. Gladly. I'd go for a doctorate. Why? You LEARN. You learn what you WANT to learn. I'm going for a B.S., and that's what I'm given.
And if I see one more post from a "College Graduate" that can't write properly, has no communications skills, and who can't spell... I'm going to scream.
This signature does not exist. It has never existed. It is all a figment of your imagination.
its also good if you like to smoke weed and take advantage of drunk young women
lose != loose
While reading through the posts, I came up with a good reason to attend college. To be able to spell and write a proper sentence.
Where is Information Technology headed?
Consider that there was probably a time once when someone talented and insightful in the arts of healing would have been called a Doctor. Today though, in order to become a doctor, one must study and obtain an education in order to provide a decent level of service to their patients (and perhaps a higher survival rate)
I believe that in the long term, that as technology and sophistication od systems become more elaborate, then degree standard education should be considered essential. If there appears to be no effectiveness in such degree programmes, then the question of why should be put forward.
While the current climate in information technology is in its embyonic stages, the time is swiftly approaching where companies and organisations will be asking you "Are you a Professional Engineer" and with such a question comes the the fact of Personal Liability. Software Engineering will truly become a professional discipline rather than a meaningless "tag" we give to people in the industry when they, as other engineering disciplines before them; take responsibility for our actions, and are prepared to deliver software products "on time, and on budget", and take responsibility for this commitment.
Daniel
<2cents>
That's just plain hilarious. I agree 100%.
I've been going to college for 3 years now and I've learned very little (i believe i could have taught it all to myself in a few months, tops)
College isn't for learning. It's for getting a stupid piece of paper that you need to access a large portion of the job market out there. Sadly, MGMT ppl know nothing of actual intelligence. They view degrees as competence and treat ppl accordingly. I know of someone who does hiring for a company and they simply toss out any resumes they get which don't have college degrees (without even looking at them).
Its very ignorant, sad, but true.
It's also the only reason I've forced myself to suffer through these 3 years of college so far.
I console myself with the fact I'm almost done.
On a side note... whether I am learning anything in college, it is an experience I am enjoying. And since I am fortunate, it is free.
Nah.. I learned most of it from this antisocial bitch-ass. Dude.. don't try to read his code, though.. it's fantastic, but his c looks like line noise.
Don't even get me started about how much I prefer military educated folks over any of the above...
:)
Ahhh, you've just lost all credibility. Good job!
What was I thinking?! Former military coders have nothing to offer. Perhaps I should stop trying to pass myself off as an experienced and able developer and just get you a cup of coffee.
Would you like cream and sugar with that?
Midwatch Industries
Through out my years at college. Classes have been demeaning to my intellegence. However one of the unique benifits you obtain from living in a college community is the fact that you have the rare oppurtunity to meet _alot_ of new people. I have learned more about programming from teh friends I have made here at college than i have from the actuall College. If anything I am still getting my college education.... Cept its not from the professorsb
--------========+++Dont Feed The Lab Techs+++========--------
I was working full time to get money to pay for my college education. I ended up in a career in the IT field as a Unix admin. That isn't preventing me from continuing my education though.
It makes sense to me - I get to ride the wave of IT demand while it's hot and rack up a number of years of experience (not to mention experience in several big technologies). I'm making very good money which will allow me to buy my "toys", a nice car and even a house. All my experience keep me ahead of the pack long enough to allow me to get my degree at a relaxed pace. I take 1 or 2 classes a semester, rather slow, but it should easily get me a degree by the time I might actually need one (I also did a couple semesters of full-time schooling which got a lot of classes out of the way).
I don't see why this wouldn't be possible for others to do. Thus far I've had few scheduling problems - it's been quite easy to schedule maintenance around my school nights (especially since we do lots on the weekends or early mornings). I can see where programmers might miss class often due to crunch-time deadlines but it's certainly an option.
It's not an either/or situation. You can do both. I've known people to do web design on their own, make very good money doing it, and still go to school full-time. It can be done. I'd say this would be the way to go unless your dream company is one that demands that you have a degree. Even then, on-the-side consulting gigs can pay some pretty damn good money and get you real-world experience that you can add to that pretty little piece of paper.
-Matt
If you still haven't figured out how to learn on your own, stay in school. If you want to work for some uptight company where a degree/your age directly translates into your salary, finish school. Otherwise, you might wanna give the real world a chance - I'm having more fun than I ever did in school; the college thing just isn't for me.
NC State University Student here. Senior, and damn good programmer. Look, anyone can hack. Anybody can write an ATM machine simulation. Anybody can write Hello World in 8 languages. Not everyone is made to be a true software-engineer, head of R&D, or a Vice President. For that, you need to 1) show management you have a degree, 2) be able to think in different ways -- to be innovative. I've worked in industry (co-ops) and learned much from them. But they don't teach you theory. You can hack with C all you want, but you won't make the world spin around you. You'll just be a hacker. A boring hacker. What about massively-OO projects (the kind where each function is only 2.5 lines long), recursive algorithms, etc? The ability to design entire projects, and more importantly LEAD teams. The most important things I got out of college are 1) leadership and 2) theory. If you only know implementation, you are a mere hacker and not a Computer Scientist. __ __Look, college is what you make of it. If you go there to get a degree that is all you get. But if go, take hard classes as possible, learn all you can, and make the most out of it. You will be exposed to some many different ways of doing things and will come up with IDEAS -- not just syntax you can get out of a book. __ __High school people, don't fool yourself. You might be able to get a job now, but how will you advance? Also, wouldn't you like to learn some MORE than you already know?
1) Traditional BSCS college grads
2) U.S. Navy (or Marine Corps) ratings
3) Tech-school (e.g. DeVry) program grads
And I notice something else: The BSCS types (including myself) had something in common with the sailors and the certificate holders: Practical experience before graduation. We either got jobs with the computer center or a department or school doing practical things with computers, or we entered the Co-Op program and did real work for real companies as interns. Whatever the route, we had real-world experience on our resumes before the school ever deigned to give us our paper and set us free.
Bottom line: Get your schooling, however you choose, but make it practical . Make sure you have something to offer that recruiter when you hand him that piece of bond that has your life's work on it.... not a lot of fluff. The theory, the philosophy, the social conditioning, this is all well and good and useful, and I recommend it for those with those for whom it fits.... but get PRACTICAL, and you'll find success.
warp eight bot
near-old-f@rt
We aren't really facing a new delema here. We like to think that IT involves smart, motivated people, and that the complexity of computers somehow reflects on the individuals that work with them.
:)
That being said, it's also irrelevant.
People would argue that skipping college to get a jop at UPS or some other union level job is a waste. Yet leaving high-school to sit behind a monitor for 60 hours a week is noble/desireable.
I'll admit that college isn't for some people. They just don't want it, and ultimately that's what education should be about; a desire for knowledge. We can't force it on people. There will always be people that go straight to work, and skip college. Or whole generations that are lead to believe that college is necessary, and find out that they didn't enjoy the whole experience, and ended up in jobs they could have gotten without the benefit of a college degree.
Using the tired cliche that education never ends may draw derisive comments, but it's true, especially with computers. We can't hold down a meaningful IT job with just the knowledge we graduated college with. If that were true, we'd all be out of jobs every 4-5 years, when a new batch of kids come out, knowing stuff that wasn't taught when we were in school.
If we accept that fact that the very nature of our field forces us to constantly learn, than the question isn't whether or not we need a college education to get a job, but what kind of person we want to be. Educated or not. Neither holds any sort of "real world" merit, in that it's wrong to look down on the no education choice; that'd be snobby or elitist.
I think the arguement of quick money pales in comparison to a real education. What's the point of having all this expertise in one area if you can't even remember when the civil war was, or who plato was other than the fact that he was greek and did some of that philosophy thing.
You'll be promoted for your computer experience, but you may be hired for your general level of education, and the fully rounded character that education brought about. Heck, if anything, it'll bring about a generation of thinking, caring, knowledgeable individuals...the kind of people that create and uphold freedom, something we love to rant about
There is nothing else at college but the CompSci department and the pub!
In my opinion, there are 3 types of techies...
There are normal people -- they go to high school, they go to college, they get a job. They are neither a leader, nor are they an underdog. Some are slackers. In general, they go with the flow. They get through life fine.
There are those learn quickly but need guidance. They go to high school, they go to college, and they make the most of the resources around them. They get out of school, and walk out a well rounded individual. They play by the rules, and do great in life.
Finally, there are those who are self starters, learn quickly and can apply what they learn with no guidance -- they go to high school, they go to college. Some dropout and some stay. No matter what path they choose, they will always succeed.
I do believe that humans are well capable of forming intelligent thought without the assistance of a professor. I do agree that degrees are necessary in some fields, but the IT field is far too dynamic. Entry level courses in colleges which teach Pascal, COBOL, and Delphi are pretty useless.
I just graduated from a brand spanking new high school. Conventional thinking would tell you that since a new school we'd be getting the best teachers and curriculum, instead I had to deal with administrators who had never heard of Kosovo and teachers who had lived 40 something years only to never hear of the game cricket. Now I couldn't even begin to describe the mentality of the student populus. I found something intrinsically wrong with class model to pass students on attendance and work completion rather than test scores and coherent thinking. In my senior year I had "peers" who asked "Was Caesar was a real person?" and "Which came first, The Great War or WW1?" These were the kinds of drones being given A's and churned into liberal state colleges. Now a true iconoclast like myself would be given an F for calling the Kosovo-unaware teacher an idiot. After incidents like that I'd be sent to the dean of students who would tell me I have no right to accuse "his" teachers of anything since I don't have my diploma yet. Ah well screw em! I'm 18 now making over 50K a year as an installation engineer for SIEMENS ICN! Not bad huh? Most of us geek types are considered gifted having IQ's well over 135. Actions like those which happened to me are what make many of us dropout. One third of all dropouts are gifted. MENSA has documented it. I find it sad that our great spirits are being met with violence from the mediocre.
The way I see it, the primary purpose of University is to advance the state of the art of national military warfighting capabilities, and should therefore be avoided wherever possible (unless you are into that sort of thing).
You never hear about the stupid tech who dropped out of college and is now working at McDonalds, because the fact that he's working at McDonalds removes him from the tech industry.
I'm sorry, but how are drop-outs working at McDonalds pertinent to a discussion about the merits of higher education? Do they reflect on the quality of having a degree, seeing how they don't have one?
Black holes are where God divided by zero
You can get your degree...but you will still be a fuck-up.
I don't mean go right off the bat, no... I'm a prime example... 19 years old, one year out of high school. I've been working for the company that I am part of for three years and am now making what is probably considered minimal for an IT position. It's still far more than most nineteen year olds I know make at a much easier job. I, however, would love to go to college. I agree with something else I read while skipping down this page, opportunities don't give you time to wait. I want the chance to say "At 19 with no education I was making serious bank" but I also would like the chance to say "hey... I finished something good." about college. Eventually, I think I will go to college, but now, I'll stick with working... it suits me better. I'll go back when I'm tired of this work.
-Laz
And yes, STATE colleges are beer drinking, getting chicks pregnant doing nothing colleges. I tried Texas Tech, i spent some time at UT down in Corpus Christi Campus.
I felt better at a small community college because it was focused, genuinly smart people, but not uber inteligent so they seem dictational.
I didn't have the money for MIT, didn't make the grades in high school frankly. I was too busy doing whatever.
You do miss on getting into psychology and such, but college isn't always the answer to being well rounded. Church group, civic groups, donating your time to ederly and exploring life is more rewarding then siting in a classroom.
It could have been public schools that spoiled me. But i think this topic is so hot because its filled with jealousy, rage and cockyness on both sides. Its a win win situation when you do whats best for yourself.
There is academia, there is the business world, the arts and physics and social services along with an unexplored and still young IT world. They all have there place in reality. And reality is to do what YOU want and makes YOU happy.
This is interesting to me, because I'd like to move into the IT world eventually. Right now, I have a bachelors in mathematics and a masters in statistics, and I work as a statistician.
Now, I'm on a long-term project that I'd like to see through, but afterwards, I will seriously consider moving to the IT world. I can't help but wonder what my chances of actually landing a job (in IT), especially considering I'll be competing against many people with CS degrees. (I did take some CS classes as an undergrad, including Assembly Language and processor design.)
I'm curious to hear what people think on this--do I need the CS degree, or is the fact that I have a technical (and very related) degree the important part?
Yes, most colleges you might have the choice of attending are in the business only for fun and profit. You may be somewhat peeved by this. Okay, you may be really pissed by this. But, there is one thing a college can offer you after all the bureaucracy and painstaking torments you might endure: a degree. One fellow mentioned earlier that a college degree shows you can do the work. Very true. With the happy-go-lucky attitude of today's IT bound professionals, this is all I have to say, "Enjoy." There is not a future in the profession, there is not a hope of proceeding, there is not a hope of progressing. Good for you. Take that $225,000 you made in three years (minus 45% in federal, state, and local taxes), and put yourself into college. Believe it or not: college is the only method of advancement; given you choose your path wisely. Any IT professional can graduate with a four year degree in art history (suck on that, Sasha), but, here's the kicker: how many IT pros w/o college degrees (for that matter less than M.De.) can testify. Absolutely 0! Who's the first to be laid off? Why, the people who do not have the credentials. Not to digress on a rant (too late), college teaches you theory. College does not prepare you for the real world; college prepares you for graduate and professor positions. But, theory is still the basis of all professional development. If you cannot understand the theory (the low-level issues), then how can you possibly understand the developments from that. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned. While I still believe that the greatest computer scientists are applied mathematicians (graduating 2001 BS CISC and MATH minor, continuing graduate MATH), most people today are still worried about the here and now. I say to hell with that. Look towards the future. Is a few years as an IT professional (say, for instance, 5) going to possibly match the prospects of a REAL computer scientist with 30 years for a company at $50,000? Yeah, you might be able to find another job after 5 years. But what happens when the bottom drops out (and it will, .com is dying rapidly; like it or love it)? What will you have behind you then? What can you brag about? All good things WILL come to an end, and you may not know when your time is up. But I know at least that my future has been secured. Not only because I'm a (soon to be) college graduate, but I plan on continuing my education. Thank you for you time (it don't matter, because anyone making it this far is probably not an IT "pro")
The Godfather
"Eagles may sore, but at least weasel's don't get sucked into jet engines..."
ah, you're getting off topic. As you argue against the philosophy going to college, you admit that you will go back. The thread said: "...many young
men are skipping formal college to pursue high paying IT jobs." You, obviously, are planning to do both because apparently you place value on a
college education. I personally would not be where I'm at had it not been for my college education. I own my own consulting and training firm. Without
the ability to communicate with customers and students, I would be nowhere fast. Without a great understanding of accounting principles, I wouldn't
be able to control my books. Without my understanding in psychology, I wouldn't be as insightful when dealing with employees and students. You get
the point. Yes, some people can skip the college, and do just fine. If you're interested in management, and understanding business, I sincerely believe 4
years of college places you LEAPS ahead of taking the road of "hard knocks" and learning it on your own. Lastly, yes, I could have read all those on
my own, but lets get real. Once in a career, you seldom can catch up to what you have to do, let alone learn to count beans, the human psyche, etc.
Joshua
The reason I am returning is because I want to be able to play with things that regular people just can't buy. I'm going back to go into Mechanical Engineering and Robotics. And while I can work on junkyard battlebots at home what I'd really like to do is work on creating a perfect human exoskeleton thatis controllable by nothing but a brain. A perfect cure for paralysis. And while the mechanics are relatively simple compared to the control mechanism it still is an extremely difficult problem and requires multi-million dollar equipment to test.
But I digress, I've been working full time for a year and a half. That hasn't cut into my time very much at all. I still get in 3 hours of Martial Arts every day. I still read a couple of books a week, and I still discuss philosophy with me net enabled friends. I have no desire to associate on professional or personal basis with idiots if I can avoid it. However I LOVE doing tech support. I enjoy teaching people things, and explaining, and figuring out problems. It doesn't matter if the person is rock stupid. I've taught kids that could barely walk because of a physical disability Taekwondo. I don't mind helping idiots. But I don't want to associate with them on a personal level. And I don't want to be in a learning establishment that can only go as quickly as the person who is both uninterested and an idiot.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
To anyone who is wondering if they should skip post secondary eduction i have the following piece of advice: Don't believe anyone here when they say you should or that you should not go. This is one of those choices that must be made by yourself for yourself. Before you make a choice about post secondary education go for a year and see if you like it. See if it is all that the advocates of university/college say it is. "Don't knock it until you try it" is what i always say. Go to the best university you can afford... it will give you a better gauge as to how suitable PSE is for you. If however you find that after the first year you decide that it really isn't for you, it IS ok for you to decide to charge out on your own. Don't let anyone here (or in your life) tell you that "you will never become anyone great if you don't have a university degree". University is but another means to an end... not an end unto itself. There are many means out there in this world to learn and to grow and a Unversity is not the only one. However having said that, the responsibility to enrich yourself and and to learn and grow rests squarely on your shoulders. Learn many things... not just programming and computer related things (although they are important and will take up much of your time). Keep up on current events, think critically about things, argue and debate, and read some of the great books of our time (you might even like a few). In University it is in anticipation of the next exam that motivates you to learn and remember things (even for a short while :)... you will need to motivate yourself to do this instead.
All the things i mentioned above are possible... if your are the type that natually questions everything and chases after answers then there is probably very little that you couldn't learn on your own that a University would have. Know this however: Not being in University is tougher than being in there since self motivation plays a much larger role... but it will be worth it in the end.
I got out of university after around a year because it was not for me... i haven't regretted my decision. In a time of my own choosing i might even decide to go back... but not a second before (and not because someone said i won't get paid a dime more until i get a degree).
Ceres
Sorry, didn't mean to imply anything was wrong with JCs. I find them to be an excellent way of making education accesible to those of us who aren't rolling in dough. It just happens that Athens is 20 minutes from where I grew up and the University pretty much IS the town.... So that's where I went.>:)
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
A college degree wouldn't give me any more self esteem then knowing i have done it on my own. If shit happens, then shit happens. I've learned to move on, be prepared and move through life the way i see fit. I can't control anything in reality other then immediate issues.
College doesn't teach you reality. I'm sure alot of kids hit it while they're in school, but there is alot more chapter 7 or whatever bankruptcies out there because of ill founded college experiences. I'm sure there alot of pathetic dropouts as well. Too each there own. Your world is what YOU make of it. You accept everyone elses world and its YOUR loss for not doing anything to make it better for you.
The college scene definitely has the rest of us beat. We only have a few gigabits to the 'net at my work.
I am sure some of the best game programmers are like you described them, as I frequently read interviews with people like John Carmack or Tom Sweeney and others.
;).
But you are talking about *very* intelligent people here. Those people are rare, they defy standard classification and can reach any height regardless of education. You can find them in any realm of life.
I very seriously doubt that most of non-top programmers, game or otherwise, read things like conference proceedings (I'm talking about something like IEEE proceedings) because a non-university educated average programer would have a very tough time understanding things like, say, wavelets (that are behind JPEG-2000), Fourier analysis and so on without some serious time studying math. And we're not talking two weekends with a textbook. You CAN learn anything on your own if you're good enough, but learning math and physics (or probably anything else) from a GOOD teacher is something no book is ever going to do.
Then again, I was educated in Eastern Europe, and from my experience university teachers there were much better on average than here in Canada. There, nobody gave a damn how many students passed the exams because it was all state-paid. So if you DID get a degree, that definitely meant something, since say 2500 people would apply, 450 would be admitted, and only 40-50 per year would graduate after obligatory 5 years of fixed curriculum. Well, 7 years on average
As an avid gamer (I *finish* 30-40 new games per year in all genres) and with 15 years of programming experience, I can honestly say that many games are coming with deficiencies are showing their programmer's lack of knowledge in areas such as, say, artificial intelligence (path finding for example). Good game companies usually release extremely polished products, well optimized and comparatively bug-free, no question about that. But take even for example ID Software, which had their Quake 3 release stalled for half a year until they got a programmer to code the bot AI. It's not at all that I doubt people there wouldn't be able to do it themselves given enough time to study the subject. It's just that, say, a masters degree holder in proper area from nearby university shouldn't have much problem doing it for them. Maybe I'm wrong in this particular case though.
One reason that *good* university educated people are not flocking to gaming industry (as you've seen the bad ones for yourself) could be that AFAIK the pay is in general lower than in other IT areas such as databases, jobs are extremely insecure and hours are hideous by any standard. I myself would gladly consider working on games even for lower pay, but at 100 hours per week, forget it. People that do that usually end up very deficient in other areas of life. That is why there's so much games that are unimaginative, using 200 word vocabulary, and going over same plots over and over. I'd have to sacrifice my interests in music, literature, playing other games, do-it-yourself electronics, writing and so on and become a work-eat-sleep-work drone whose highlight of the week would be a non-pizza dinner and seeing a blockbuster movie. No wonder then that Half-Life (a great game) gets accolades for its greatest storyline. From people whose yearly literature diet consists of game manuals, online reviews and movie lines, probably. Which seems to be a majority in the US anyway.
funny how most of the people who went to college say its good, and the people who didn't go to college say its bad. To each his/her own? methinks so. Going to college isn't a decision you should have to struggle with. if it is appealing and you have the money, go for it. if it isn't appealing or you don't have the financial resources, get a job and wait a bit. perhaps you will go to college furthur on down the line. Don't make the decision just because you think college is neccesary, do it because you think you will have fun!
I've been working in this field for 14 years, and have no degree. I regularly see college grads who cannot write, cannot read (staring at words doesn't count -- integration of content is required), and cannot think.
Why is this? It is because our educational system is becoming an indoctrination system -- it's all about memorizing and regurgitating. Combined with the lack of an overarching conceptual framework, the result is arrested cognitive development.
Some few make it through unscathed, but they are the exceptions. It makes me sad and angry to see what's being done to the minds of our children and young adults. :-(
I see no value whatever in college today (there may yet be some few outposts -- if you can find them). Any reasonably intelligent and motivated individual can and should craft his/her own ongoing program of education. This includes topics both in and out of one's field.
Gordon.
He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.
-- J.R.R. Tolkien
whereas a college undergrad could, probably starting around sophomore year
where did you go that they taught you that stuff that soon? CWRU's comp. sci program is biting the big one hardcore (and i'm jumping ship) - they're just beginning to explain POINTERS in SECOND SEMESTER of freshman year.
oh, and then they try to cover it in 2 days and expect everyone to comprehend everything pertaining to pointers and their usage after those 2 days. bad teaching.
From a motherboard manual, error beep codes: S-L-L-L-SS: Speaker Error
Regarding the preceeding blabber about college being "certification that one is trainable."
Sort of. College is certification of a permanent lack of initiative. That is to say, if you're willing to put up with the educational process that long, you're obviously quite restrained in both action and thought.
So it's no wonder employers get off to degrees and diplomas. After all, they're *employers*! Their work consists exclusively in conditioning productive people, called employees, to act solely on behalf of the company.
That is to say, if the employee were to take any action on his own behalf, the employer's continued welfare would be greatly jeopardized.
And what better place to inculcate unquestioning obedience into a person then a school!
Buzzz! Off to class!
Yeah, let's not forget the social and community interaction we had before
computers were the "in thing", and all the comp sci folks were uber-nerds.
Average uber-nerd: Hi, um...would you...um..like to go out for dinner
some time?
Hot ch1x0r: *slap*
Average uber-nerd: *picking up glasses* damnit.
Here's another fun scenario.
Jock-type: Hey look guys! It's one of the computer geeks!
* Angry mob approaches, hanging Average Uber-nerd by his underwear from a
flagpole.
Ah yes, the social interaction. I so miss those days *sigh*
Whether you're going or not going to college or university - not really relevant.
;) - it's more _likely_ for religion to cause you to think about the consequences of your actions than "higher education".
:).
AFAIK those scientists probably went to universities
A few reasons to go to college are (in no particular order)
1) To learn about cool stuff you'd never have thought of learning about.
2) To meet lots of different people with similar general goals (learning, broadening perspectives), and share ideas, build relationships with them.
3) Have good time and help other people have a good time too
Cheerio,
Link.
I'm one of the people who started to go to college (on the comp sci track, which never taught me alot about computers), then got a job in the computer industry. I've now been working for 4 years, and I've found there is nothing limiting how far I could go in this industry. Going back to school for a degree in computers would be a waste of time, as I've broadened my horizons further than school could have brought them. If I need to learn anything about this industry, I just need a book, or to speak for a few hours with someone who already has the knowledge I seek, as I've got a good enough foothold to bring myself up to that level.
However, I have started going back to school (JC). But not to study computers. I've gone back to study music. I decided that school would better suit me expanding into areas which I have only minimal knowledge and almost no exposure to (save for what I can do on my own). My advice, if you're going to go back to school, don't study what you already know. Study something you wish to know more about.
that doesn't mean everyone who is in college is goona be 'behind' on Real World languages. Based on your experiences, your friends went to college and came out not knowing linux/php/js/sql, but that doesn't apply to everyone. I'm (about to) go into college and I have been exposed to a lot of linux... Afterall, Linux is an operating system that was initially created as a hobby by a young student, Linus Torvalds, at the University of Helsinki in Finland.
Besides, many people (there will always be exceptions) with a good background from what they learned in school can pick up another programming language such as js/php/perl quickly while someone who simply learned one language may not be able to learn a second language quickly because they don't really understand the concepts behind programming.<BR><BR>
OTOH, some people just can't stand school, and if they can make a living w/o school, why force them to go to college? I agree with your conclusion, but I just don't think "my college grad friends don't know linux" is a good reason for a person to skip college and join the workforce.
Zetetic
Seeking; proceeding by inquiry.
Elench
A specious but fallacious argument; a sophism.
In my 14 years in the industry, I have not found that CS grads generally have the "broader, stronger grasp" of the "why and how".
From what I've seen, they've been on the "memorize, regurgitate, repeat" treadmill. Once they leave school, they don't crack a book. They don't run their own Linux (or WinNT) box at home and poke around. In other words, they don't continue to learn and figure things out. To the contrary, they seem to have forgotten (if they ever learned) how to be self-sufficient and self-starting. Rather, they expect to have things already laid out and spoon-fed to them.
Again, the above is the norm in my 14 years' experience in a variety of companies large and small, blue-chip to dot-com.
There's probably a reason that the majority of people proclaiming the uselessness of a college degree don't have one: We don't have four years (and probably *still* a pile of student loans) to rationalize and defend.
Gordon.
He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.
-- J.R.R. Tolkien
(on the off chance that this #800+ comment will actually be read...)
;)
/will/ strike your fancy, something so interesting you'll be willing to sacrifice 4 or 5 years learning about it (well, minus requirements...) before you join the rat race...
I started college a year ago knowing exactly where I wanted it to take me. I love computers, and I wanted to be a UNIX System Administrator. So I declared myself a Computer Information Systems and Management Science major (being less than excited about programming and figuring it was more relevant to a mangement setting anyway).
A lot changed in a year.
I discovered that the direction the CMS degree would take me didn't seem to line up with where I wanted to be. In fact, where I wanted to be doesn't even seem to be on the map anymore. Looking through various job listings, it seems as if the career I really wanted is rare to non-existant nowadays. But, I had discovered after taking but one class that I absolutely LOVE economics. So I had to figure out what I was going to do. Would I finish the CMS degree even though it seemed worthless? Become an economist? Something else?
My current, tentative plan is to change my major to economics (I've already started taking some of the advanced classes) and to get that degree, if for nothing else than my personal edification. Then I'll probably start at the bottom of the IT ladder and work my up the old-fashioned Andrew Carnegie way and see where I end up. Of course, if someone just happens to open up an Austrian-school economic research institute in Denver, then....
The point is that there are better reasons to go to school than to help you on to a career. We're computer geeks, and these blasted boxes make up a huge portion of our lives, but they're not everything. Some of us might be really interested in history, philosophy, economics (w00t!), theoretical physics, astronomy, whatever! If you jump right into a career after high school or whatever, you'll probably never have a real chance to go to college ever again. So my advice would be to go for a year. It doesn't have to be MIT or UCB, it can be a local state school, or a community college (many of the best teachers teach in these places, where students are more important than research, and 101 classes usually aren't in 200+ student lecture halls). Take 5 classes each semester, each in a different subject, and see if anything makes your mouth water. If nothing clicks, you've only wasted one year, and you can jump right into making the big bucks with the satisfaction that you were right in the first place. But maybe something
MoNsTeR
makes sense now with the shortage of it professionals.
oh ... i'm not in IT .... i really liked campus ... and i'm thinking of going back to persue CS.
When you control your own canon - when you decide what you read based on your internal map of the discourse at hand - you are likely to avoid being deeply challenged. You can reduce the discipline you are studying to a game over a limited map, and miss a vast range of alternative perspectives. (Observation: if you say that you've looked at "both sides" of an issue, you likely haven't really looked at the issue at all, but only a sketchy cartoon version of it.)
Many of the autodidacts I've met have much too much faith on the quality of their sources and their interpretations of it, of their initial strategies of dealing with new information, and in the novelty and brilliance of their inferences (I've seen 28 year old self-taught intellectuals congratulate themselves endlessly for observations and discoveries that most undergraduates in a decent liberal arts program had mastered in their first weeks.)
Again, better self-taught than not-taught at all, but don't be naive about the pitfalls of an unguided education.
Tell me if this sounds like a good deal:
I pay you Eighty Thousand Dollars (over 4 years), and you give me a piece of paper that says I lasted through it.
A contractor with a BS degree in computer science came to work with us a while ago. He was an idiot. Absolutely no work ethic, afraid to ask questions, not passionate about computers, absolutely no cleverness. How does a person like this get a Bachelors degree? Which brings me to my second point:
Degrees certify endurance, not aptitude.
Besides, most of the great innovators and creative thinkers had non-traditional educations. Some of the highest suicide rates are frin college kids. I wish this percieved NEED for a college degree would work it's way out of public opinion.
Sigh,
Evan
http://koax.org
I feel a bit sorry for people skipping a good education for a high paying job that has no garauntee of being around in five years. Today you may be able to program in modern languages in just a few years they will all be old hat. You'll end up being one of the legacy programmers a company keeps around to maintain old programs that are written in older languages and only one in ten of you will actually have that job. Unless you've got other skills that will allow you another career you're fucked. If you've got a BS is computer science-not JUST programming mind you- you will be able to get another job after your web firm dies when it's venture capital runs out or you simply become obsolete as a programmer. If you program well enough to get a job, go to school as a business major and you'll land yourself a VP job making ten times as much money for less than a quarter of the grunt work. If four years of effort are too much for you to handle go to a trade school or a JC and work towards an Associate's degree or some certificate in a useful field. You may scoff at people in college now but you need to remember that the people who invented the shit you write code for went to college and many of the technologies came about because of colleges. You're riding on someone else's laurels, don't get cocky because you're going to be working for the people who actually diciplined themselves to get a degree.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
It's not necessary to leave school 40 grand in debt though. I myself worked through college, it's quite possible to do both.
In the end though, many of your peers will end up making a lot more than you, with little more than their degrees to explain it.
Cash is a good thing. If you're really sitting on enough of it to last a lifetime, then you've got nothing to worry about, and your decision has served you well.
The problem was to distribute assets to a divorcing couple. This is not a Knapsack problem, it's not a computing or algorithmic problem.
This is a Solomon class problem [1] :).
You could solve the surface problem in a legalistic or academic way, but if you are not wise you can overlook the real problem.
Of course if a particular couple respects the results of computers and fancy algorithms then you could use this method - but ONLY if they agree from the start to use that particular method. If not... Hooboy.
Cheerio,
Link.
[1] Solomon class problem
I'll start off on this. I hate Bill Gates, but the quote that you put in was great. Well, I'm a UNIX sys.admin, that says it all. But I want to be experienced in business and a good writer. I have just re enrolled in school after a year of working in the .com's. Many of the IT people I worked with did not even attempt going to college. And some of that was evident in the way they went about problems, and the conclusions they drew fomr thngs. And I know in some of my CS classes we get hard programs to write that take a lot of thought. While I hate programming I do have to say that it has taught me to start thinking different, and that has really paid off. Right now I am starting my 3rd year of college, and no i didn't go back to colege because I wasen't getting paid enough, I was getting paid plenty. But I saw the improvemenets made in the first 2 years of college, now i wonder what the last 2 years will do...
PS.
I want to retire when I'm 40.
I'm in college right now, but have considered just dropping out and going into a nice, cushy job MANY times.
However, what most people who are boycotting (so to speak) college don't consider is the fact that the industry will eventually either become stable or be saturated with potential employees.
Yes, the industry will continue to grow, but the number of people going into the industry will catch up with the growth. And once that happens, degrees will factor into the hiring decisions.
Be a man/woman. Take the pain and get the degree. You won't ever regret getting a degree, but it's very likely that you'll regret NOT getting a degree.
"I have no special gift, I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
I agree with you on the most part. I have seen cruddy programs who graduate CS with honors and off to go get a programming job. Crap, I'm a System Admin. I hate programming and I could do a better job they they could with my eyes shut. But at my College 2 of the 6 programming teachers are really dang tuff. He will give you a problem and you have to figure out how to code it. he gives us problems from Programming Contests. Problem solving and generating good and wierd ideas is what we have to do... i think that good teachers in the Colleges makes all the difference.
Have you read today's Dilbert?
(That's on 20000907... try here if that's no longer the current date.
eudas
Blessed is he who expects the worst, for he shall not be disappointed.
I agree with this, I went to university here in england, to start with I was going for the bit of paper...
... it was meant to be "sotto vocce" but it came out just a little bit louder :)
...
:) even if i didn't get that piece of paper.
... so it all seems a bit pointless really
I realised soon that going to university for a bit of paper was completely the wrong thing, on my course myself and about a tenth of the rest of us (there were about 120 in my year doing CS) were quite obviously more knowledgable than most of the people who were supposed to be teaching us things.
I remember getting the most deathly stare for correcting one of the lecturer's a little more loudly than I intended
so why go to university/college?
all the stuff I learnt there had nothing to do with a degree or a bit of paper, all the usefull stuff was about how to look after myself and how to live.
all the cool people i met and the cool things I did
that is why you should go to university...
but having said that i left university, simply because i didn't think that the degree i was going to end up with would be worthwhile, the course was abysmal, the resources nearly non-existant. I had a good time though
mind you, you don't get bits of paper to say I can do what I can do
meow! Maria
This is so sad. The point of going to school is not to train you for a job. If that's what you want, go find a vocational school advertising on UHF or basic cable.
The point of school is to become a well rounded person that can appreciate the time outside of work, who can contribute to society, who knows what to do with the money you earn at work, who will be a conscientous citizen, and a long list of other things. The things you'd learn in college are how to think critically, how to make sound judgements, and all sorts of other things that are not specific to a particular field of work. The experience of leaving your parents' house and learning to live on your own is also important.
One thing I used to hear all the time is how college is so irrelevant, they're teaching my Pascal, not C; what's the point? Of course, that was back in the early '90s, so the languages have changed, but the bitching hasn't.
The thing you need to understand is that when you go off to college, you're probably too ignorant to make decisions about what's good or not good for you. I know I'm not exactly preaching to the choir here, as there seems to be a lot of (junior) high school punks who think they're hot shit and don't need anyone's help, but this is the truth.
Keep in mind that while I may sound like Mr. Higher Education Apologist, I went to school for three or four years (at Drexel) but was lured away to a start-up and dropped out before finishing. One of the reasons I dropped out was that Drexel was so obsessed to being relevant to your future job experiences, they skimped on the other, more fundamental lessons that colleges are there to teach.
Of course, I was a philosophy major for most of my stay, converting from C.S. after experiencing the extreme short-sighted materialism of most of my classmates. (Hey, you can make lots of money as a programmer, so I'm going to major in C.S.) My other great interest in life was philosophy, so I changed my major. I still took C.S. courses, and kicked the crap out of the C.S. majors, because like I said, they were focused on the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, while I simply loved coding.
College is a great opportunity to expand your horizons. Don't willfully stick a potato sack over your imagination by diving right in to make big bucks. It's quite possible that what you consider big bucks really isn't that much. My first co-op job at Drexel was for $9.00 an hour or something. I thought that was the shit; I couldn't spend my salary fast enough. But of course, I had a full scholarship and free room and board. Once you go out there in the "real world", you're going to find that the skills you're missing are going to be increasingly in demand.
The typical Slashdot poster can't write grammatically correct sentences to save his life. That's going to hurt you. So's your complete lack of life experience that makes you a one dimensional keyboard pounder. The technical people who thive are those who can clearly communicate with non-technical people, who can draw on their knowledge of things un-related to coding to help solve a problem. Oh yeah, and people like talking to well-rounded people. And if that doesn't resonate with you, just think: it's probably a lot easier to get laid when you are an articulate, well-rounded person.
Like others that have replied to this post, I think it's still really important to go to college, not just for the piece of paper you'll get at the end, but for the life experience. Granted, you won't make much money during those four years, but you will make good friends your own age, become independent, and learn about looking after yourself and how to relate to other people. I don't think you can get this same experience from the workplace - people are there for different reasons. My advice to anyone deciding between an IT job and a college degree is: take the degree. You will enjoy it far more in the long run, and you'll never be able to have the same experience again. College is totally different when you return as an adult student.
but college isn't always the answer to being well rounded
...more rewarding then siting in a classroom.
i'm very well rounded. I am cormfortable using many C indentation styles.I use GNU/Linux *and* NT.
are you kidding, nothing is more rewarding that a nice nap.
ROTFL!
I've been using computers since I was about 12 (32 now; it was a Kaypro). A while before then I recall checking out, and reading the first chapter of a Fortran manual. Wish I'd had a computer *then* -- sadly my parents refused to buy me a Timex Sinclair (was it 1K or 2K of RAM?) for $99 from the pages of Popular Mechanics. When I graduated high school in '86, I picked the wrong state school to go to. Mistake #1. Transferred promptly to the right one, but never managed to get really into it; tho' to be honest, it wasn't the bad start so much as me being me -- living off campus didn't help the focus any either.
... sigh.
;)
...
... you will need more than mere mechanical skill.
... Bwahahahaa! I laugh in your face!) will allow you to take time off whenever you get around to wanting to go back to college, and pay for it too. Well, high pay for new-technology skills probably won't last forever (Hint: a large number of people pick their major based on the amount of money they might make (probably most of them smarter and more motivated than you -- you can't decide whether to even go, after all...). Also, more than a few of the billions of people that don't live in the US will be getting CS degrees, many from schools that would laugh out loud at your SAT scores, and your pretend US high school "education") -- oh, and you think your spouse is going to let you spend the kid's college money on yourself??
/. not too long ago: It's four years of sex and alcohol paid for by your parents and the government. You're going to pass that up?
As it happened, I wouldn't consider CS (Mistake #2) for two reasons: 1) didn't feel up to dealing with the math and science, despite (because of?) having taken the full load of math and science from the hard teachers in H.S. [insert long tirade against teaching math (and by association, science) as mere formula memorization and calculation], and 2) I had a poor computer teacher in H.S., who convinced me (unwittingly) that, beyond the most elementary 10-15 line BASIC program, computers were something you either already knew how to program, or not. There was an assignment about date calculations, and I had no clue about date functions (*still* don't know if BASIC had them), and couldn't figure out how to write my own, of course [insert link to rant about math and science teaching]. There was no book for the class, and the instructor wasn't giving any help. So, I gave up and played the cannon game available on the Apple IIs we were using, and wrote a smart ass program that didn't calculate anything...
Anway, after 4 yrs. of university and merely Junior standing (I was working part time and not taking a full load, and had no _compelling_ idea what I wanted to be, much less study), I bailed out on a business degree in favor of Art School. ((expensive and useless) mistake #3).
After getting a (horridly useless, did I say?) technical degree in photography [insert long rant about things where you should perhaps *avoid* school if you want to learn them, maintain your passion for them, and save money too -- shut up, CS isn't one of them], then spending 4 yrs. mostly in the restaurant biz, and a friend of mine beating me over the head (thanks Tom), convinced me to pursue computers (Good Thing #1), which I'd used enthusiastically for 15+ years. The first job I could get with no degree and 'no experience' was as a clerk, counting money at Microsoft.
About 2.5 years of mindless testing contracts later [insert long tirade about the frustration of getting anyone to believe the worth of taking classes from community colleges, online, or self study; accredited CEUs and certificates suitable for framing notwithstanding], I finally got a break and got to code up a fairly complicated test script in Perl (which I learned while doing it). My eternal thanks to J. Hunter and J. Meng for that break.
So, now I'm a decent Perl programmer, and just managed to learn ANSI C; and am figuring out Linux device drivers a bit as I finish up a Unix Admin program at UCSC extension -- I wonder if anyone will believe that I can learn another computer language without a degree or paid experience
More importantly, and more to the point, now I understand the nature and value of the things they teach in CS programs; where before I could be heard to rant about PHBs who wouldn't consider anyone w/o a degree for their bonehead job opening. (That criticism is still valid to a degree: how many HR depts. spew out fantastical wish lists instead of realistic job descriptions? But I digress; my point is only that I recognize the value and understand the nature of that knowledge. Hint for the clue deprived: it's really neat stuff, and the CS degree is one of *very few* keys (blinding genius being one other[1]), that will allow you to get paid for playing with it in your day job.) So, now I've gotten my first batch of CS / Math books for my own personal CS program. That's what I'll be doing with a lot of my free time for the next...well, the foreseeable future, let's say.
OK, if you're thinking about college and a CS degree vs. high paid tech job, and you've read this far (i.e. you have an attention span)
Now, your Hot Skilz(tm) will take you somewhere nice for a while, and sure maybe you can learn the next hot language/tool/OS in a jiffy, but if, OTOH, you want to be working (read: living) with any *depth*, and Real, Deep, Meaningful Satisfaction(tm)
Know This: (barring having your mind dumped to a long lasting man-made container with access to quality outside information) you will *never* have a better opportunity to learn the things they teach you in a B of S CS degree program, plus all the other wonderful things they have you learn -- and many people will not believe you if you learn it any other way. Go back and read that again, please. Done? Thank you. You may never have *any* opportunity to learn those things if you pass it up now -- think full time job, marriage, kids, etc.
I'm lucky, in that sense (single, no kids, no alimony), so I actually have the time / money to go back and learn that stuff (tho' not at a real college/university, of course -- so no one will believe me (are catching on to a pattern here?)).
You may also think that your high pay (or stock options
At any rate, you will likely have neither the time, nor certainly the motivation, to learn in your spare time, and still have a semblance of a life, all the things you might have learned in college.
If all this fails to convince you to Do The Right Thing(tm), I'll say what someone said on
-
My signature is a registered trademark of the corporate arm of a government research lab on a cold and distant planet; and they won't answer my requests, so I can't use it.(tm)
[1] I actually *am* a genius (somewhere in the 147-165 IQ range [2], depending on whether I've eaten a camel recently). And you were thinking how easy it will be for you to skip college, 'cause you're so much smarter than me, right? Well, maybe so, but that's just the Completely Wrong(pat. pending) sort of challenge to be taking up if you're 18 and full of vim [3] and vigor.
[2] So what's *my* problem, right? Long story...
[3] or emacs
Thought Apple was supposed to make you do that:P
Everything is but a number spoken by itself.
"You could spend $120,000 for fours years at a good college or spend 30 seconds on a search engine to find what they are talking about. "
How is a search engine going to help if you don't know what to look for (or even that you should start looking)?
--
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
Well, to go back to my original examples, I was exposed to Turing's Halting Theorem in freshman fall (at Dartmouth). The class I took was CS18, Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, which was awesome. It was based on the excellent Abelson and Sussman book, and Turing's theorem was one of the last topics. The class covered proofs of correctness in great depth, and we went into some algorithm design (but not much---that's a separate class I'm taking this fall). We also covered metacircular evaluation and had to write our own interpreter (Dylan in Dylan). Very cool stuff.
Most people taking that class have already had the intro CS class, which I placed out of. So if someone is following the normal CS sequence would probably have taken it in their freshman winter or sophomore fall. The reason I said people could really do all the things I listed (and lots lots more) by the end of sophomore year is that they should by then have had a class in discrete math, algorithms, software engineering, and maybe an elective (like graphics or AI).
My feelings on this are simple. I would never go to college to learn something that I could learn myself (in a reasonable amount of time) without having to spend more than I would've at a university. So this rules out philosophy, psychology, computer science, criminal justice, and a whole heck of a lot more. I *would* go to school to learn a science like chemistry, biology, or physics (or any sub-class of these broad sciences). In that case, it would take considerable time (and likely, considerable amounts of money and connections) to learn on my own... ... and don't get me wrong, I've taken college level philosophy courses, and I've had a lot of fun with them (Philosophy and of course my favorite, Logic, in which I had a blast) --- and would do so again simply because they were fun, there are a number of courses that are, in my opinion, wastes of money and time.
On the path to a Computer Science degree, I had to take English Comp I and II. These are by far the biggest wastes of my time and money so far in my schooling.
They were essentially going over (albeit a little more systematically) everything I learned in my high school English courses.
It's classes like those which a Computer Science major doesn't need.
Now I work in the field as a project coordinator, I've abandoned my computer science path, at least for now, simply because I am learning *far* more in the field than I ever did in school.
I am not saying school isn't right for EVERYONE, there are some individuals who *need* that group environment and homework, and all of those things in which they had become used to for 12 years, but I am saying that as far as techies go, if you have to go to school to learn this, then once you are in the field... you are going to have a very hard time.
Just my two cents, anyway.
~- Llah -~
I left university because I was not happy with acedemia. Most of them were moaning people who moaned they were poor yet still refused to get a part time job. I at that point was supporting myself in a part time job through university. I left and got myself a high paying job in IT security and am loving it. Its a capitalist world and people should start realising that. It is the survival of the fittest and if they dont get it first or second - they wont get it at all, and thats tough.
And the trend in tech schools is to drop the humanities anyway. I know a mechanical engineer who had no humanities, history, philosophy or literature. The closest thing to composition was a technical writing class. She has a BSME, and it was still a 5 year program.
And if you're into corporate paranoia, the big corps don't want people to know about arts and literature anyway. What if they were looking at art instead of working or something?
I think the only classes I had that exposed me to anything new on the liberal arts side of things were Humanities I and II. But the fact that you can identify baroque period music by a moving bassline (and I'm not really sure my memory serves me here) doesn't really seem very important to my search for meaning in life.
Philosophy? Truth is something you have to look for by yourself. Some old fart trying to get into the girls pants teaching philosophy class does me very little good.
Higher education is a joke. Yes, a joke. You don't think so? Ask my health class professor who said it was a good idea to drink cold water after a strenuous workout because the molecules are smaller and the body can absorb them quicker. There wasn't a hint of hesitation among 40-50 students as they dutifully wrote that into their notes. The only jaw on the floor was my own. I didn't go back to that class.
I beg to differ. I had a roommate in college. You know... one of those 4.0 types. Dumb as a post when it came to common sense. Evidence: Upon returning from the grocery store one day, while unloading groceries he asked me if you could freeze hamburgers. He worked at a Wendy's. Where do THEY store all the hamburger they use?
College doesn't necessisarily teach you how to THINK... But it is good for teaching you how to memorize. I got my AS degree, but not my BS. I had to quit and get a job because it was prohibitively expensive to stay in school. People at work are usually VERY suprised that I don't have a full "degree".
I went to a University for a year. I want to go back soon, though it's going to take me a little more time to get over my first experience. After failing a class based on a quota on class requirements and then failing another for a 106 degree temperature, I don't really want to go sprinting back, but I do want to go back (to a different one) soon. Until then, I'm broke. Those two snow jobs killed my chances for a scholorship, and a 35 ACT only carries you so far with my current GPA. So I'm working in the same stuff I have been for the last couple of years, ASP/SQL, only I'm leaving the family business and moving to one of the hot markets and putting my faith in Monster. I'm not sure this is the best course of action, but I need to raise a few G's on the quick to get back to school, and I don't deal drugs. So throughout this debate, we should keep in mind that this job market might make advanced education possible for some it might not have been, even if they don't go right after High School. Oh yeah, and another thing. I took a year off to tour with my punk band. I love computer science, and I enjoyed most of college, but what's the rush with most people? All my friends gave me flack about everything I'd miss by putting it off - like the chance to tour with a band? See the country and meet punker chicks? Get real.
Obviously his point is that you can't look at a few successfull non-college educated people as statistical proof that a high school graduate is better off not going to college. Because those without a college degree that lack significant intelligence or the work ethic remove themselves from the IT population [if you will], it is hard to take such a trivial statistic seriously. In other words, for all you know from these examples, for every 1 successfull non-college educated [unusually intelligent] techie, there are at least 9 [not so intelligent techies] who are flipping burgers right now.
Compare this with college, where we can say definitively, that, the average starting salary of a CS graduate these days is approximately 50k (or whatever it is now). It does not necessarily mean college is better, but that it is a much more accurate statistic than what many of the proponents of forgoing college offer.
You completely missed the point. Its a natural selection type process. The only techies that don't go to college are the techies that are still techies, and not working in McDonalds. They're the ones who are smart enough to skip school and still make it by with good impressions on people.
Interactive education is the future, including efforts like the company I am working with at www.myclass.com. Counselco
Universities are evil proprietary-software-requiring, Linux-banning, too-much-money-charging, free-speech-stomping, bogus-patent-filing bureaucratic Stalinist hellholes anyway.
It's too late for me -- but young hackers, save yourselves! Don't go.
-- Real free software sites don't use GIFs.
It was clear that he had never been drilled in recognizing certain algorithmic patterns, and thus his optimizations employed many language speed up tricks to make C++ faster, but largely ignored using a simple but better algorithm to improve the speed. I rewrote it to use the better algorithm (compute string replacements for levels 2, 4, 8, etc., when needed, rather than 1-N) and eliminate the repeated string copy (by rewriting front to back, then back to front, in a single buffer), and beat his "optimized" version.
Why wasn't this function already in your development library?
That's the real issue that I have with college education. The exact methods used to teach critical understanding and analysis are the same ones that actually cause problems in the long run. The reaction that says "Hey, I can write a routine to do this simple task efficiently in three hours!" is the one that makes it impossible to think to spend 20 minutes digging in the shop develoment standards books and finding the routine that's already being used elsewhere and copying that. In the place I work, no one ever writes a sorting routine. There's a "sort array" function already written, and for anything bigger, the anwser is "throw a new index over your file and let the OS maintain it".
Certainly, someone had to write those bits in the first place, but that effort was made by someone inproving her little corner of the universe and then sharing the benefit of the work. Encouraging everyone to tweak everything ends up fostering even more of the problems the poster had with the applicant: encouraging people to dive in, rework functional things, and likely gain nothing from the time spent.
MyopicProwls
MyopicProwls
My homepage
I spent 3 years at a major university studying CS when I realized that I enjoyed the hardware more than the software, so I just left. Here I am 3 years later working for a large computer corporation make $95k/yr with no degree, nor any certs. Its all in the experience and the ability to sell yourself. I am considering going back to school to finish, but only for the fact that I let something defeat me. Go for the experience, not the degree. In the end the ability to pay the bills and take care of your family is more important than the framed degree on the wall.
If, however, you're motivated to learn how to think, then pack your bags for campus. Take classes in fields other than your specialty, enjoy the company of people with different interests, and work to expand your own horizons. It's not always easy, and it's not lucrative, but college will be fun, and worth it in the long run. There's more to life than hacking or working in the industry.
wassa minger?
Okay, a college degree does not necessarily mean anything. My sister-in-law got hers and she is as stupid as a stick.
But, the college time means a lot more than that. It means that your non-technical upper-management will be more likely to pay attention to you - where I work, my ideas have to go up via one of my college educated peers in order to be reviewed by the executive board.
Having college also means that you have more opportunities for advancement. Many corporations have certain job requirements that must be met in order to advance to the next salary range, and often that involves college or at least a certain amount of college credit.
College is also the last time many tech-types will have to goof off before the real world comes crashing down around your ears. Enjoy it while you can.
Brought to you by Frobozz Magic Penguin Fodder.
Newsflash - numerous colleges have very few programming requirements of students (amazing as that sounds).
A college degree in no way indicates any exposure to rigorous programming practices.
College was a great place to party and generally avoid having too many responsibilities. Kind of like having a three year advance on you retirement while you'll young enough to really go for it. Of course the degree, while not being the be all and end all, doesn't hurt when looking for tech jobs.
Special Relativity: The person in the other queue thinks yours is moving faster.
The old saying about Unversity of life is the one you go to when your grades aren't good enough for anything else :-)
:-)
:-) I took the degree just to say I'd done it and also to find out if there was any secrets being imparted in university, there wasn't.
Seriously, hated school and everything to do with organised learning. Have worked for the last 15 years as a software engineer, and I'm only 31. Worked my way around Europe and am currently in California, see H1B article of today
Having said all that I've been taking my CS Degree for that last six years, while working, should finish this year
In short, do what the hell you want as you ain't going to live forever.
I'm currently in college, majoring in mathematics. I am also employed by a DoD contractor, working as a programmer-- I have held this position since I left high school.
Going in to college, I wanted to major in Comp Sci. It's a great field. Interesting problems, fun stuff to learn, abstract thinking, a fast-changing field (well, parts of it, anyway), and so much diversity that you can learn new stuff from just about ANYBODY.
Part of the requirement of getting a CS degree is at least SOME proficiency with mathematics. So I naturally took a few math courses.
And instantly, I was hooked.
This was cool shit. Differential equations, Algebra, Geometry, Topology, Number theory... God, it was amazing. Like a drug-- I couldn't get enough of it. I loved it. I HAD to do this.
So I changed my major. I haven't regretted it. Don't get me wrong-- I love CS. But I love math even more. I could have been very happy as a CS student. I would have lived without regret, had I never taken a math course. But once I did-- I had to run with it.
I guess that's why I'm glad I've gone to college. It introduced me to the one thing that I find fascinating beyond all else. Math. I know what I want to do, and how I'm going to do it. Some people don't need that, I know-- they already found what they love. But I hadn't found that yet-- college gave me that chance.
The keggers ain't bad, either.
I have a feeling you're missing one of the points of going to college in the first place.
:-)
Certainly, many job skills important to people in the tech industry are ether self-taught or better learned on the job or in freelance opportunities. But there's an entirely different purpose to higher leaning then just to act as a glorified trade school.
I graduated with a degree only marginally related to my job as a graphic designer and occasional systems tech; most of those skills I learned pursuing lifelong hobbies. What I DID leave college with, however, was a knowledge of words, art, and culture. I absorbed myself in history, sociology and literature courses in an attempt to round out my knowledge and give myself perspective on the world around me and the people I will likely encounter.
Certainly, there's nothing stopping me (or anyone) from going to amazon.com and buying all the classics and history books I can stuff into my virtual shopping cart. But the environment of peer review, discussion and collaboration that a university setting offers, in my opinion, enhances the learning of these subjects and encourages people to develop their opinions and thought processes beyond just as a storehouse of knowledge and facts.
This point doesn't even address the opportunity for people to develop socially in a college environment. Although as a borderline misanthrope, I never really enjoyed that part.
-A.
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What did the walrus say to the penguin? "No soap, radio."
If all you want is to get job training, go to a tech school. If you want an education, go to college. The point of college is NOT just to get job training. You take philosophy, history, language(s), various science classes - and you interact with people from many different walks of life with many differing opinions. This is GOOD for you and good for society as a whole.
You gain information and grounding in the hows and whys of Western Civilization. You gain a grounding in the hows and whys of the (in the US) Constitution and our system of laws. You gain information about things that in a tiny, job-training-only school, you never even realize existed. You learn that people are different, have a right to be different, and that you MUST accomodate these differences.
Ignorance is evil. Merely seeking job training is an "education" in ignorance. One should ALWAYS seek to expand their knowledge and experiences rather than keep to their parochial, insignificant little worlds of unfounded, fear-based opinion with no basis in reality.
If you don't know how we got where we are, technologically AND socially, then you are in danger of repeating time-worn mistakes rather than actually learning from them and NOT repeating them. THAT is what a broader, non-job-training-only college is about.
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
I think it's fair to say that most of us geeks are much in need of college. Knowing a few languages hardly means that one's education can safely grind to a halt. I mean, if all you want to do for the remainder of your life is a little Perl and SQL, that's cool, but that's really not a great approach.
;)
I think that there's a big difference between "saying no to college" for now, and "saying no" for good. I'm skipping it for now. There's too much gold to be mined in the tech industry for me to hold off right now. I'm sure that lots of others feel the same. Anybody that says that there's absolutely nothing to be learned from college is a liar or a fool.
However, there are plenty of geeks here that learned little or nothing in college. And that's quite possible. But you could learn things if you went back and re-focused your work.
I still think that going to college for the purpose of furthering your programming knowledge borders oon foolish. Again -- possible, but generally unlikely. Some people float through their teenage years, and don't really focus until college. I like to think that I had a hell of a productive time in high school. I did more in those four years than most people do in high school, college and grad school combined.
Does this mean that I don't need college? Hell no. I want to major in everything, learn everything that they have to teach, and die at 99 with a dozen degrees. But right now I shouldn't be in college, as I'm sure that many of you aren't for the same reasons. There's too much life to live, tech will change too much in the next four years while you're pursuing that philosophy major.
Or maybe mwarps was right when he wrote of me (well, flamed):
Anybody with ½ a brain, and even two nanoseconds of a real college education knows this guy is full of crap either because he's completely moronic, or hasn't been to a real school.
His picture looks like he spends his time sitting in front of a sticky keyboard looking at alt.binaries.erotica.* and 'coding' HTML. Another fine candidate for the "Why Couldn't Social Darwinism Take This One" award.
But really... If you seriously think you're going to get anywhere significant in this world, without that piece of paper, you're going to end up nothing but a bench-drone or a tech somewhere useless, fixing a useless piece of hardware, broken by a worthless collegeless geek, just like you.
I'm not so personally insulted by this as I am by the implication that all of us that aren't in college are "worthless" to the world, and would be better off dead.
But what do I know? I've never been to college.
-Waldo
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I've sat on both sides of the interview desk and I totally agree that the college-educated make for much more attractive candidates. They have more experience in Just Plain Learning. (Of course, there's a causation arrow problem here, but I think it points the right way).
However, there's another factor involved: fundamentals. When you are sitting in "Algorithm Analysis" it seems like none of it applies to making $75k-$100k typing HTML into a text editor. But trust me, things like that help--maybe not often, but when you need it you need it.
For instance, I had someone come to me with a program idea: He was a divorce lawyer and wanted software you could type all the assets of the couple into. Then the program would allocate the assets in such a way that each member would have an equal amount. "Uh-oh", I thought, "Knapsack Problem." I immediately told him that would not be feasible , but we could work on an approximation.
Another example: When I was hiring, I gave out a programming problem. One of the problems I used was "write a program that will multiply two arbitrarily large numbers together". I can't tell you how many people tried to use a variable of type long to do this. I can tell you that none of them were college-graduates.
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Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
I'm one of those IT workers that skipped college. After five years of experience, I am making a decent living.
At a previous job I was responsible for managing the IT staff. I had six programmers, most of which I hired personally. Two of them had four-year college degrees, the others were only certified, or had nothing. I personally have taken no courses or certifications. I have worked with other programmers who have completed degrees in CS.
I can honestly say that the workers who had degrees were, on average, much more competent than those who did not study formally. Those who had certifications were generally not as good as even those who had no study at all.
The finest programmers I have known have not had degrees.
I have come to the conclusion that a degree does not necessarily indicate any level of technical aptitude, but that it is generally these people who have had the interest and have pushed themselves through college. I believe they have a better work ethic and far greater potential. If I had to do it again, I would definitely give preference to applicants who have a college degree. I also feel an urgency to complete a degree myself. In addition to years of IT experience, it can only enhance my skills and train me to think in new ways.
Certifications and lesser degrees mainly focus on the "trade" aspect of the business, which tends to be obsolete within months. These people are after the money, and are best suited for using large amounts of trendy jargon. They have to spend a lot of time and money keeping their skills up because they never learned the theory and other ideas that help them become efficient problem solvers. I wouldn't waste my money on them.
Where else but college are you going to have a chance to learn about the theory of how things work? I mean, yes you can pick it up on your own, but once you are in industry you are a lot less likely to have the time to learn the background, and get the theory.
That said, theory is theory and it ain't likely to make you rich until you can apply it to something. But the trap of not having the background is that you are stuck operating the tools.
Kind of like the difference between a construction worker and an engineer. The construction worker actually knows how to make things work, but the engineer should know why they work.
I guess with computers it is still just a matter of what you actually can do with it, and when it comes to actually making something all that time spent theorizing doesn't necessarly help.
I suppose the I picked school because I am a theorist at heart. But for others, industry would be more fun.
Oren
Mike said that he would be more than happy to bring me on full-time, and made an additional offer. He told me that he would pay 100% of my university tuition costs if I wanted to keep taking courses at the university. If I only managed a C grade, he would pay %50 and for a D or less I was on my own.
More high tech companies need to consider making offers like this to their employees. Educational institutions cannot keep up with the high-tech market - it is simply impossible to teach the teachers while they themselves are busy teaching their students.
I don't know about other "nerds" but taking random courses that I am interested in paid for by the company I work for seems a lot more appealing than going through someone's idea of the perfect high-tech ciriculum. All you prove in the end is that you've learned how to memorize.
I am not interested in articles about life extension advancements.
As has been driven into the ground in earlier posts, college is more about learning to learn for that lifelong cycle of learning than it is about acquiring all you'll ever need to know at once. True, not much you learn in college or grad school is going to make you a better modern programmer. But, a robust college CS or IT program might do a good job of teaching you how to quickly evaluate and learn a language, how to understand larger conceptual issues in writing a program, and how to go about learning the real-world techniques that will make you a better programmer.
"Sweet creeping zombie Jesus!"
In addition to this, we were taught basic business skills - project management, letter writing, all the stuff businesses will take for granted.
Compare this with the self taught, and there is no contest.
That said, from a personal perspective - in colleges you'll meet a whole bunch of people with similar interests, who will probably remain in your life until you die. And you'll be a couple of years older and wiser, and more able to deal with those 70 hour weeks you'll be doing!!!
Strong data typing is for those with weak minds.
Strong data typing is for those with weak minds.
Things might be good now. And if you're good at what you do you won't have a problem.
What will happen when the economy finally turns down and employers start getting swamped with resumes again? A lot of people receiving resumes will start employing a filtering mechanism, for example, throwing resumes for people with no degree straight to the reject pile without even reading it. It seems a shame to put yourself at a disadvantage when you're good.
Then there's the other aspect. When you get bored and want to go and learn something new, it's good to already have an undergraduate degree. I say get it out the way as soon as possible. I certainly wouldn't want to go back and start as a beginner.
I have a friend (used to be my mentor at my first job). More than years experience and also a very good software engineer. He has no degree. He wants to go back to school and learn more about computers. Unfortunately all of the stuff that he's interested in is at a post-graduate level (obviously). The stupid system of pre-requisites has put him off: too much effort pursuading the schools to give credit for his career experience, and too much effort taking classes he could do his sleep years ago.
It's unfortunate that society places so much emphasis on having a degree. You can't even get immigration visas for most countries without a degree. So not studying rules out living and working abroad (and I wouldn't change that experience for anything!).
those discreet mathmatetics courses from back in college will actually help you out. I was arguing an algorithm a few weeks ago with another engineer...he would not buy into my solution until he finally challenged me with: "prove it." After I wet my pants, I actually remembered the math I had learned in college, prepared a solid proof and convinced the other engineer that my solution was valid! Plus, college binge drinking is too much fun to skip.
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." - Jack Nicholson
I didn't do enormously well at high school, and didn't get the right sort of grades to get into a good college. Even if I had, it probably wouldn't have been an IT-related degree that I'd have been taking.
After finishing school I had spent half a year going on vacation and generally goofing off, and then I spent a year in a dead-end office job at the bottom of the ladder.
I got sick of that, so I decided to look for employment in something I was more interested in. I already knew how to write HTML to a pretty high level - I'd been doing web pages as a hobby since I was 15 - so I figured I'd start looking for an IT job.
Unfortunately, I got made redundant before I secured a new job, so I spent another half a year out of work before I managed to get my current job - writing HTML and JavaScript professionally for a web design agency. It took me those six months to find a company that would accept me on the strength of my skills rather than my experience, but once I did, I was set for life. I gain marketable experience every day in this job. (I met someone the other day who has a degree from one of the best universities in England, but no experience. She's had to start her career - in marketing - way down at the bottom as an office junior, as it was the only job in advertising she could get.)
The upshot? I never got any formal qualifications, but I have a damn good job that will lead to better and better ones. And I didn't have to spend four years in student penury only to end up with a qualification of arguable usefulness. I can still go to college at some point in the future, too, if I want to (and I think I will.)
My conclusion - the beaten path isn't all it's cracked up to be. High school kids should weigh up the merits of college carefully, rather than just blindly accepting the plan of "high school, then college, then job".
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Wait a minute, this sounds like rock and/or roll. - Rev. Lovejoy
Some of you all went to college for a few years before dropping out. I never even started. I went directly from high school to working for a friend's consulting firm.
Not having a degree has NEVER been a hinderance to me. Going through four years of school would have basically put me four years behind where I am now, and given me a piece of paper. Having a CS degree is the equivalent of having a BS in Business. Grads are a dime a dozen. I routinely win jobs over college grads, cause I spent that four years actually learning my field, not the complete waste of time classes that the university makes you take to be a well rounded individual.
The one thing in this industry that is prized more than a degree is knowledge. I've got my MCSE certification, and I'm working toward my Cisco CCIE. I've seen people with no degrees, but with a CCIE get offered six figures, even with no real CCIE job experience. Ever seen a grad from a four year school get offered that much right out of graduation? OK, it does happen, but it's RARE!
A degree is nothing more than a sign that you can read books and memorize stuff. A CCIE is the tech equivalent of defending your doctoral thesis. It's frigging tough! But, if you have the CCIE, that's your sign that you know what the hell you are doing!
College is not a guaranteed path to financial security. My dad has two bachelors degrees, and I make twice what he did when he retired. My wife has a Masters degree, and I make twice what she does. She hates her job and her field. I absolutely love my job (not necessarily where my job is, but I love what I do here). I play on computers at work, then I go home and play on them there.
A note to all teenagers. Quit school and move out on your own. Odds are, you really do know more than your teachers do.
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. - Cmdr. Susan Ivanova
It weren't about no piece of paper...
Too many people are going to university because it is the "right" thing to do, because they need to "have a reason" to acquire skills, and ultimately, to get the paper.
They wish to be taught, rather than learn - which is not in keeping with the original purpose of university - which really started with a bunch of smart guys trying to bounce ideas off each other and promote thinking among their eager followers.
It's a bit cynical, but my personal opinion is that many people go to university these days because they need the extra 4 or so years in order to grow up.
And did you know that in Canada (don't know the stats for the US, but they are similar), there are more people who are functionally illiterate than ever graduate from University?
While it is true that a degree is a requirement for certain fields (I want my neurologists to have the degree, thanks...) and it is also true that degrees create opportunities for job seekers trying to get a foot in the door - practical experience, ability and who you know (networking) in your field are more important to a long term career.
And - for the record - I had no troubles in university - so I'm not just trying to justify dropping out. I just think there are way too many people who go to university for the wrong reasons, who end up just wanting to "get through" - and then ended up in my classes...
I am working full time in the 'smokin hot' economy and finishing my undergrad at the same time. There is alot to be said for *directly* tying your career to your formal training. Certain things that wouldn't sink in without job experience are much more profound and applicable. At least that is my experience as a software developer and a CS student in my last year. Also, there is a depth of understanding about the fundamentals and behind the scenes concepts that you can't get by just getting a certification/degree or just being in the industry. Where in your MCSE class do you learn about interrupt service vectors or compiler design? Or, conversely, would any of the formally defined steps in Software development 101 actually sink in at all if you hadn't had the experience to realize they really aren't a load of arbitrary crap? It seems reasonably obvious to me that people who forsake one for the other, e.g. pure academics or experience only techies, are shortchanging themselves in the long run. Pure academics will always have a disconnected idealized view of the world and experience based techies will spend the rest of their lives scrambling to pick up the specifics of the 'Latest New Thing' without understanding it's basis or history at all. This also assumes you are aspiring to be a good computer scientist. If you are simply gambling for a quick buck or an IPO, by all means just dive in. Unfortunately, there are too many people like this today and the direct result is the sorry state of the industry today.
So I don't go to my classes, have a decent programming job, do the exams, get good grades and the nice paper at the end.
I can't wait to do millions... ;)
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Guillaume
give me all your garmonbozia
Who needs english when you're a 1337 h4x0r who has his own 1337 l4Ngu4g3?
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
It's important to remember that college is not "training", it's learning how to learn more than anything else. Sure, colleges should use up to date technology and such. But their fundamental mission should be to teach one how to solve problems and learn new techniques, rather than the more specific, "How to code a system using EJB and Java."
Go to college to learn to think.
Go to training to learn specific tools and technologies.
If you're career-oriented, and you're sure you want to be in software or systems/network engineering, a CS degree is worth less than industry experience.
Obviously, if you're unsure of where you want to be in 10 years, or if you're not motivated enough to take the initiative in building a career, college-at-18 is a good idea. But everyone here knows that CS is not trade school. The knowledge you need to compete in the IT/development workforce is obtained by doing, not by reading. I'm sure even the staunchest advocates of college education have horror stories about clueless CS grads starting jobs full of a sense of entitlement but completely bereft of any practical competance.
The word I hear most when talking about the way practical computer education SHOULD be is "apprenticeship". And we're fortunate to be at a point where meaningful (if informal) apprenticeship is available to everyone. Development and deployment projects of every level are open to participation in the form of open source projects.
If you're planning on becoming a software developer, contributing to a well-run open source project is a much better use of your time than theory classes. A solid 4-year history of real contributions to well-known projects looks much better on a resume than 4 years of undergrad schooling. It also costs less, and is more productive than undergraduate CS.
Speaking as someone who has been responsible for hiring people in the Valley for the past 3 years, I can confidently assert that the naysayers who claim employers will frown on a resume without a degree are completely full of it. The few exceptions I can think of (hardware engineering and research positions) so obviously require schooling (from a practical perspective) that they aren't worth debating. In the technology workforce, it's a sellers market. No serious employer has the luxury of waiting for a "traditional" candidate with a degree --- there are 10 companies competing for every job hunter now.
Even if the bottom drops out of the technology market in 5 years, a few years of industry experience is clearly more valuable to a resume than a degree. The market today is a huge opportunity for tech workers. It's silly to ignore that.
Is it possible to look at College as more than just a place to train for an upcoming job? Perhaps someplace to broaden your horizons, learn something outside of your chosen profession. Perhaps acquire some intimate knowledge with the humanities, or some science not directly related to the tech industry, like geology or oceanography?
With that in mind, there seems to be no reason why someone who has gone directly into the tech sector couldn't consider some form of part-time degree program. Certainly the Colleges and Universities in my area provide courses for varying levels of involvement, and any number of credits per year depending on interest, availability and funds. Why not go straight into the industry, but carry a load of, say, one or two credits per year of literature, or theatre, or biology in your spare time? You wouldn't be the first, and you'd certainly not be wasting your time.
I left University after first year to pursue a carrer in Electronics. I started off as a trainee and soon acquired enough experience to be on the top engineers wage for my company at the time. Had I continued studying, it would have taken me years to gain the experience that I would have missed.
At 23 years old, after leaving a well paid job for a major ISP, I set up a company to provide networking solutions. As I now regularly interview and employ both graduates and non-graduates, I can appreciate the advantages of both. Often a young school-leaver is easy to train, as they are genuinely interested in the work and want to learn. All too often, graduates come out of college and believe they have learned enough at college to start in at the deep end. Trying to train an employee who is hostile to the idea of going back to the fundamentals and learning everything from the beginning again is a tiring task.
I've got nothing against employing graduates, but they work under the same conditions as school-leavers, on the same salary. Although they may be able to fast-track to management, there is no preference in our company and a 17 year old who is good at his job has exactly the same prospects as a 25 year old finishing his degree and coming in to employment.
Philosopher (n) - a wise person who is calm and rational; someone who lives a life of reason with equanimity
I graduated from high school in 1976, and went to University in 1977. I had gotten interested in computers in 1974, though a "computer concepts" course in high school (working on teletypes and time sharing with a bunch of other schools in my region). I got very good with the computers there, quickly surpassing my teacher in knowledge (although he helped me find better references and manuals to read).
I was interested in a computer career, so I asked a few programming professionals that I knew what I should do in college. All of them told me to FORGET about taking computer courses , they were too theoretical for the "real world" (read "business world"); if I wanted to be successful, find an industry that is using computers, and learn that industry. In other words, learn a bit about accounting if you figured you would be doing payroll, A/P, etc.
I took their advice (and a couple of scholarships and grants) and went to University as a pre-med (figuring that doctors would always have enough money to make computing for that profession worthwhile). When I visited the computer room at the place, I was VERY glad that I didn't become "just another computer geek." Those guys were sleeping next to the terminals... bad hygiene... all those other stereotypes we have today.
However, the problem with my decision was that it turned out that I **HATED** the science courses that were necessary for a pre-med occupation, and really DID love programming.
I eventually dropped out of college, and got a job as a computer operator, and then worked my way up to programmer, etc.
Today, I don't know if taking more computer courses in college would have helped (I am probably an exception), but I have two daughters that will be considering college in a few years, and I know that my advice to them would be to NOT do it the way that I did... it was most definitely the hard way.
If you really like something, then spending 4-6 years immersing yourself in the depths of the subject in an educational setting is money well spent.
Although, looking back, I can say that after I left University, I *did* have fun.
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"May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"
I would say there are certain fields in which having a degree helps more than a certification. Being a software architect does require experience designing large systems, but it helps a lot to have formal software design courses under your belt. Perhaps most importantly, you have reasonable expectations about how long it will take to write a given program. Something that most programmers fail to comprehend unless they've seen the research or done it a half-dozen times: Time spent actually writing the code should be well under 20% of the time budgeted for the entire project. I know it sounds painful, but in terms of programmer hours, companies spend the majority of time in design, fixing defects (bugs to those who regard them as inevitable rather than the product of poor design), and maintenance. This is just an example of the kind of thing you learn in a degree program. Most companies and certifications don't bother with a strong software engineering component, and I think it really contributes to the buggy code we all see every day. Having to take software design as a course and practice doing it right helps.
Also, if your idea of a fun job is to explore things that no one has ever done before, a degree and some research experience is very beneficial. Rather than go work for established software companies, I choose to take my BS from (shameless plus) Harvey Mudd and do research. While most places that are doing research require at least a BS as a standard thing, it makes sense because they don't want to be stuck with someone who has no experience in pursuing open-ended problems with no known solution. If you think you're in a research job, and you don't discover at least occaisonally that what you've been trying to do for the last week has been proved to be impossible, you're not doing research. Having a degree gets you experience with that sort of thing.
Walt
In my case, I was in college for three years and realized I wasnt learning a single thing. I looked at what graduates were doing, and I knew more than they did (and Im no genious). So, why keep making loans, get myself in debt, only to graduate and realize I'd have to start learning in the real world all over again? In my case, a good opportunity came along and I took it. It was better to stop making loans and get real experience.
Here's a cool scenario to chew on. It's 1995, me and you graduate high school together. You go directly to a great college and graduate in 2001 (five years later) and actually learn alot. You pay ~$30K a year for this (even this is a "bargain price"). You get out of school and youre good. You land a job making $90K a year - great. You spent ~150K to get there.
But back in 1995, I decided to skip college and get a job right out of high school making $35K a year. Now here's the question: by 2001, who is more valuable?
I guess it all depends on the individual's knowledge and choices, but the thing to realize is that, no, skipping college isnt a bad thing at this time. On recent interviews, over ~95% of interviewers showed absolutely no interest in my educational background and were concerned only with experience.
Skipping college is not the guarenteed path to financial security, and by no means should be portrayed as such. You sir, are in a unique situation: You have the personal drive to suceed and the ability to understand some complex material (although I will argue MCSE being complex material). 95% of the kids that decide to skip college would not be as fortunate as you. I, myself, am in a unique situation: I graduated with a CS degree and made a great deal more than most of the kids in my CS classes. This doesn't happen all of the time and certainly is an abberation.
You say that a degree is nothing more than reading books and memorizing stuff. I wrote my own assembler, did you? I wrote a java compiler, did you? I worked hands on with artificially intelligent robots. After perusing some of the MCSE material, how can you claim that obtaining a MCSE certification does not involve a lot of reading and memorizing? Don't MCSE's come a dime a dozen these days too?
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." - Jack Nicholson
In the united states at least there is a decent segment of the population (mostly working class families) that are above the level where they can get financial aid, and way below the level where they could afford to pay for school on their own without taking on unmanagable amounts of debt.
This comes in part from reigional differences in wages and cost of living. Where I grew up (and still live (working as a programmer)) in Ithaca, NY there are a sufficient number of college students that have come for the ivy league experience at Cornell that they raise the cost of living quite a bit, and then there are also grad students that are starving enough to build a nuke, program the next greatest software suite, run your network, etc... for $8/hour. A small (less than 15' x 15' ) studio apartment in a lousy neighborhood (across the street from a crackhouse actually) is $350/month. I got lucky and snagged a tech job by knowing the right people and being in the right place, and after 4 years i've worked my way up to 36k/year as a consultant...
In any case, i decided to put off college indefinitely because i couldn't afford it, neither could my parents, and i wasn't ready enough to pick a field to go into, since i'd pretty much be locked in after i finished until i could pay off a massive (probably $50-100k loan)... with the constantly shifting future of the tech industry it is hard to pick a feild to go into that is both interresting, having new developments, and is going to be able to provide you with a job 4-6 years later and ofr long enough to pay off a loan.
My reasoning for not going to college right after high school was more born of a pragmatic evaltuation of my options, with many options and not very many known variables, i took the one which gave me the least chance of making a catastrophic mistike. For me this was to settle into a 9-5er until i could either afford to go to college (and had a good idea of what i wanted to go for...), or until i found a neat enough and stable enough job not to care.
As it is now, after passing the 4 year experience mark i've had a lot more offers for work (and good stuff too) than i can take, so i'm okay for the moment.
I guess i just wanted to be a voice for people who didn't go to school, because i've seen a lot of people putting that decision down as irresponsible, impatient, or just poorly though out. I'm seeing a lot of people writing off the non-degreed people as a bunch of idiots, which i think is a particularly narrow view. A good portion of the programmers i know have taken a similar path, and most of them have been successful. Several have found their calling and gone to school, several have saved up and bought or build houses and settled down in the community, and several of the younger ones (me included) are still feeling things out.
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Play Six Pack Man. I
As it stands, a college degree really proves virtually nothing - look at all the dimwits out there with degrees (as well, of course, as the smart ones). Its almost impossible to draw any useful conclusion from a degree.
>I don't know how much of what it taught me
>will be relevant in my career.
College is not trade school. If you just want to learn something "relevant in your career", go to a techie trade school. They'll teach you how to code and then you can go get your job.
College is about learning to think, learning to work, learning to interact with people, learning about the depth of things out there in the universe that you may want to find out more about. College is where you can learn that there is more to life than your job. College is a place to gain some maturity and perspective.
In the U.S., a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that college is just a springboard to a career, and then start talking about the return on the tuition investment, etc. That's not what college is for! I paid high tuition at a private liberal arts college for my BA, but the things I learned there were invaluable.
"There is a time and a place for everything, children, and that place is college". -- Chef, South Park
Cara Hart chart@eNOSPAMfurn.com Systems Administrator eFurn.com, LLC. and ARITEK Systems, Inc.
College is important for some and not so important for others. Nowadays anyone with half a clue can get a tech job and be sucessful, but for what? Money, possessions? This seems to be the only thing driving our reality these days, fast money and even faster jobs. I went to school and loved every minute of it. In fact, I didn't even go for a tech degree. I started in music and ended up in philosophy; now I'm a network admin and loving it too. For me it's about the means, not the end. I think some ppl who are skipping out are really missing out on growing and learning experiences that they will never get again. Sure you can go to school later, but you miss out on the relationships that will eventually help you become a self-aware responsible individual. College makes you think about many different things and different ways of thinking. It also teaches you about responsibility and accountability; something our little spoiled brat script kiddies don't have. Skipping school and pigeon holing yourself in a job is unwise simply for the fact that you might end up being a shallower person, and that is all this world needs...
/sucram
lost my login
Have you ever thought about going back to take a few English courses?
I did some college but didn't finish. I've found that most employers who know what they're doing will treat 4 years in the industry about the same as 4 years of college. Most important on the resume seems to be the technology and the fact that you'll hit the ground running.
Krispy Cream is people
As far as for tech jobs I see it as a waste. I went for one year, did kinda bad. But with technology changing so fast the stuff you learn will be old and usless by the time you get to apply it outside of school
Free Mac Mini
I believe one of the primary motivations behind techies skipping college to head straight into the field (besides $) is the one single great flaw in most geek thinking, that high tech is everything. College is a rare time when you are allowed the oppertunity to gain a wide array of knowledge, to broaden your horizions.
Yes, you may have all the network or programming knowledge to make you very valuable in your workplace, but if that is all you know, how valuable are you as a human being?
--
Feminism is the wild notion that women are human beings.
Here in Pittsburgh, you NEED to have a degree of some sort to get in the door at IT companies. They ignore that fact that you may have integrated databases on multiple platforms, built 100mb lans from the ground up and can make a machine sit up and bark, if you don't have that paper (or at least proof that you're working towards it) you're SOL.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
This is curious to me...
I spent alot of time in college, but never actually finished a degree.
My goal in life was to become a history professor (after wasting lots of time thinking i wanted to teach philosophy). However, i was funding this entire venture working temporary and contract positions as a tech support specialist.
I almost accidently made my way into programming and here i sit as a developer now, having given up collegiant pursuits in favor of my High Paying Tech-Job(tm).
Whats interesting to me, is how many people i know in the industry who are officially degreed, whos degrees have very little relevence to what they do now. My project team leader has a bachlors and mastors in geology, my co-developer has a degree in psych and our little companies CTO holds a doctrate in child development.
I think a large part of this, is that the industry is surrounded by this mystique of strange techy geekdom, so that only people who are intrested in it seem to get in it and accel.
Additionally, this is a (reletively) very new industry and therefor (unlike history) demonstratable merit suddenly becomes more important to your educational certificates.
As the industry grows and matures, this _will_ change. All academic (or pseudo-academic) pursuits eventually become overrun with qualified individuals, and then who you know and where you went to school start to become more important( as in history, economics, and to a large degree, law).
Who knows how long that will take though? There are still many many companies that you walk in to and get in on the "ground floor" of their IT departments, and quickly move up in position and salary. The industry will become alot more eastablished before these types of opportunites begin to really dry up, though the market is harder now than it was perhaps 5 years ago. I don't mean that its harder to find a job, i mean that the skill sets required are higher now, as companies know more about what they actually need, rather than just looking for bright enthusiastic individuals.
-T
Old truckers never die, they just get a new peterbilt
You could learn all that stuff at temp jobs. That way, if you screw up they just put you on another assignment, if you hate the job you can just quit, and best of all they pay you to learn what you're doing.
-----
...you could go to college, pay $15k/year, be too busy with studies to generate any income, learn obsolete technology, and live in a crappy dorm with annoying roommates while getting no real world experience other than "how to cope with hangovers".
Or you could get an entry/mid level IS job, earn $50k/year, learn new and interesting technologies, live in a decent apartment/house, and get started learning the stuff which will ultimately make you worth $250k/year.
Sure, college offers chances for cultural exposure and a self betterment. Me, I'd take the paycheck now, retire at 35, and travel the world. That's what I call cultural exposure and self betterment.
-b
If I wanted a sig I would have filled in that stupid box.
Many jobs require a CIS degree. Especially for high-paying admin and devel jobs.
That said, many jobs rely on (the better indicator IMHO) prior experience. My degree was in hard science and math (who could turn down playing with NeXT/Mathematica when both were new toys?) with an education degree. After experience in state-level statistics and database design, though- few employers questioned my abilities.
Things have changed quite a bit since then. Certainly, knowing the C/C++/Java family of languages and some good solid OOP design strategies will hold you in good stead. These things are taught in college these days. Don't expect an employer to do the training you should have received in school. It's not fair to them and is irresponsible on your part. If you already know how to code, and are familiar with your operating system and hardware, you'll not find much new in college. Most colleges tend to teach toward the people who are new to computers. Geeks are an irritation to profs since we code differently, think differently and can often befuddle them.
A college degree is like membership to a club. Jobs become easier to get if you're a member. It isn't fair. A degree doesn't make you a better coder. In fact, college CIS tends to homogenize and remove the creative spark that I find marks a truly gifted coder. Yet, expect the grad to get the better job (and salary). And, they always will.
-Ouija- poke 53280,11:poke 53281,12
i dropped out of college after my first semester at University of Maryland. It sucked soooo bad. I wasn't learning a damn thing. I got a great challenging job in San Francisco, working for a .com. Now, im working for a real estate company in las vegas as an IT director... yeah..thats right...a freggin IT director at 19. Im making 60k, but still cant help feeling bad about not going to college. I feel it's inevitable that when this robust economy slows down, workers just as qualified as me will get picked up by some ignorant HR hoochie, just because they have the 4 year degree. Really though, why not, they sat on their ass for four years and endured subject material they should have already learned in high school....
I have three other friends in the exact situation as me. We're all making over 50k and feel that right now, college would be a waste of time. Then again, if i was a hiring manager and found a kid who finished his degree in four years, all while working full time in a techy job.... i'd hire him in a split second. I think all of us computer prodigies are going to come to a hard realization when our economy start running at warp speed
Obviously, going to college to learn something you already have a mastery of is a waste of your time and money, as well as a waste of the school's resources.
Something I've noticed about the cream-of-the-crop coders is that we teach ourselves more than schools do anyway. I've dropped out (for the 2nd time now) because at this point, the CS department isn't going to teach me anything I can't learn on my own.
I can honestly say that the amount of computer-related knowledge I aquired (and retained) at school would have taken me less than a month to learn on my own time. HOWEVER, I shudder to think about what sort of person I'd be had I not gone to college for 6 months in 1996, and a a year and a half in 98-99.
I am considering returning to school to study something else - psychology perhaps. One of the posts joked about making sure you go to a school with lots of women - a perfectly valid suggestion, especially given that plenty of us techies have a level of social skills that approach absolute 0. College is good for more than teaching you what you need to know to get a job.
It's not the fact that people are trainable that is important, It's more the fact that they have spent three years working without detailed instructions that is important.
You can say go and set up this system for me and you don't have to hold their hand through every stage in the process, They are used to working out each what they need to do to complete the task rather than you having to tell them every detail of the process.
A very bright and capable friend of mine spent about two years in a college CS program, then dropped out. He says that he is having trouble advancing beyond the level of network administrator type jobs into bigger projects or management positions, because he lacks a degree. Skipping college may look appealing in the near term, but after a few years you may find yourself stuck in lower level tech positions.
---- I'm going to lead you kicking and screaming, giggling and laughing into the future.
In California, I've even been on several interviews where education never even came up in the discussion. Good programmers are needed so badly right now that many seem to not care. Will this last? Who knows?
Four years is much too long to spend learning CS in a classroom and much too short to expect to master it. The higher education system in America gets people into the mindset that four years is this magical number after which you're done learning and proving yourself. If lifelong learning is the key to success and you truly know how to learn, formal education is a waste of time and money.
I went back in Europe after I started a very ealry unix Internet (and uucp) server... Basically I flunked CS to just play with my Linux box Heck, I started it even before SLS/Slackware distros. IT was fun to compile. The rest of the tuition money, I blew it on a Sparc IPX. Back in Europe, I went to Unix Admins interviews and got my first job. After that I went to contracting and ever since System V (hp/ux, Solaris) brought me all the money I could wish for, so I can spend it on Linux boxes. Compared to this, guys who graduated still had no clue how to do things. There is a catch though, back then there was ONE admin in the university and there was NO WAY he was going show you the ropes. For fear you might abuse the system. Now, I understand there are SA classes. This scheme would have not worked at all to become a AI expert, electronic engineer, lawyer... But there have always been docs on the Net, most of us here on Slashdot grew up on them.
I never had anyone asking me about education, nor did any of the NT or VMS guys around. You understand Logical Volume Manager? You pass those practical networking questions they asked you? And you are the person they trully are looking for. Even easier if you contract, in wich case your resume/CV should be 4 pages of past experience. No one will read the last section.
There is only one case where, yes they do make things difficult for you in the HR departement because you don't have a PHD in Medieval Chinese Stenography like Ms Brown in Fixed Income has...
It is in big american corporation, especially banking institutions. But then again you IT manager might just say "we need that guy" or "he has the skills we want".
Fashion in selection and recrutment might change, but in IT/IS it's mostly experience and sometimes certifications (if you can affort the 5,000 bribe to officialize that you can tell "vi" from "ls -l")
So yup, if it's Network Management, PERL coding and UNIX/NT job you want, screw the 6 mounths courses on bubble-sort or PASCAL (aaargh!)
An other morale to the story is: SYS-V brings the money, not BSD. And this I have a grudge against Maddog, whom I saw in person, for sending young folks just armed with Linux and telling them "you will make it tomorrow with your newly aquired UNIX skills". Maddog, you murderer, the industry pays HP/Solaris guys, look at the job offers!
http://www.jobserve.co.uk/
Think of college as a monetary investment. One should expect some sort of return on the investment. Just as I would chose stocks based on what profit/growth/dividends I will get out of it an individual may do the same with their career.
So, go to college or not?
If it doesn't yield the financial returns college will then it just doesn't make sense. It would seem more resonable to take the job out of high school that pays a heck of a lot more. While you would get a chance to apply your skills you already have while gaining new ones. If the long term will yield more money by jumping into the workforce that must be the sensible decision.
I have struggled for years with the absence of practical knowledge my university education has supplied me with. I have finally resolved to the university being a tool to expand my mind and its tangible donation to my life a mere degree. The degree is only a ticket to somewhere else. And hopefully it will matter to someone but I am more certain my skills will always be more valuable than my degree.
-To hell with fluff, I have seen enough of it.-
I'm about to spew off on my views about education and how it is very much misunderstood, thus, condemned on traits that are not really applicable to it. Update: I basically stick to CompSci and Programming. I didn't get to the College/University paradigm...
Firstly, people tend to not quite understand the difference between the fields of programming and computer science. They are not the same thing. A computer scientist has a ciriculum rooted mostly in theory and discrete mathematics. Programmers, conversely, deal in a much more pragmatic atmosphere. It's theory vs. the practical.
Computer science is mostly concerned with computation in a general sense (asymptotic analysis, formal langauges, automata, etc.). These, on their own, do not stem from programming. They do, however, enhance it. A computer scienctist can live without programming (usually, they don't...) but a programmer sure can't live without computer science. I'm sure people can tell a programmer who doesn't understand the notion of a time complexity analysis or data structures. They probably suck.
Programmers are concerned with actually getting some tangible system up and running. In other words, they have real jobs =). Many more esthestic issues arise in programming. Style, modularity of code, etc.
They tend to collide in the world of software engineering. Whether this is an engineering discipline or a computer science one is still up in the air. Suffice is to say, it uses the theoretical and some time-tested practices to achieve it's goals. It is much more practical than computer science.
Now, here comes the real problem: people tend to not know what field they are in. They misuse the terms. Also, those who go to school tend to find that it is not what what they thought, mostly because of the misunderstanding and gross misuse of the terms. I find those who want to program do this the most. They can't understand why they have to use something that they see no use for. Often, this is a mix of short-sightedness and bad instruction. As soon as some math-oriented theory creeps in, a large chunk of people say "This is stupid". When you have to program in a language you don't see as useful (e.g., Scheme), they say "This is never used in the real world". Perhaps you should stop and think - what is the point to the course I am enrolled in? In the class I had that used Scheme, it wasn't to learn Scheme outright, but rather to grasp concepts in programming languages that Scheme demonstrates more clearly.
Think about this: how in the world would you tailor an education system to meet the expectations of everyone who used it? You probably can't. What is important to realize is that even if some of the course doesn't seem useful, there probably is - you just need to look deeper. That's a sign of a good student as well. Getting more out than what is put in. Following the implications.
However, after extolling the virtues of education, I should note that it is not for everybody. Assess what you need and don't go just becuase you are supposed to. However, don't put it down as wasteful because I can guarentee you many people down the road will say "I'm glad I took that."
This post got a little off track and has to be cut short due to time, but I think I (sorta) got my point across =).
Woz
> college undergrad could...
Not at my school, buddy. My second year of CS studies was much closer to "hello world" than "implementing user-level multithreading..."
Not everyone leaves school because "Teach Yourself Perl in 24 Hours" is good enough to them. A lot of people leave school because they want to learn a lot, but the CS curriculum has been horribly dumbed down for the newbies who are only getting into the field because it pays well.
That's a lot of money to spend to get a social life. You can save more than HALF of that just paying people to be your friend.
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
yeah, and the F/M ratio on most campuses is > 50%.
Ya wanna meet women, ya gotta go to where they are....
Cara Hart chart@eNOSPAMfurn.com Systems Administrator eFurn.com, LLC. and ARITEK Systems, Inc.
that's a pretty dumb idea to go to college. i went and put my time in mostly so that i could spend four years geeking out, partying, and generally having a good time on credit. you pay for it later, but paying for a college education in this business is easy.
so, if you're debating on whether or not a college degree will help you in your life, it won't really. but you'll have a great time and you could also spend time taking classes outside of the realm of computering (blasphemy, i know).
Thats good, that you know that your employer can terminate your job at any time even after 15-20 years on the job. You can still be fired at whim, if you ever lie on a application.
I have to agree here, I just landed a $40,000/ year job doing web deisign, and I dropped out of high school, and no college after that.
I love these 'Computer machines'!
---
College is nothing more then a 4 year $100,000 vacation. Yes it sounds like a lot of money, but if you get scholarships, grants, loans, or your parents to pay, then you make out pretty good in the deal.
Name another time in your [adult] life where it is acceptable to sleep till noon, get drunk every night, "date" as many people as possible, and skip a day because it is just to sunny outside to concentrate or to cold to walk to class.
I think that it might be time for grad school.....
The funny thing is i did my 3 years of college education. after the 3 years of General Ed. all i wanted to do was take my engineering classes. Couldn't afford it anymore, so i learn perl, and here i am today. i can afford my life style. when we interview new junior programmers (i'm the lead now) out of college...they know shit about real world programming. i sat around in school and said "how can i make this practical" whereas most of the mooks interviewed have never created a practical program before.
i'm not going to say this is the case all the time...i just tend to notice this. that and my employer doesn't mind sending me to confrences and training to make me smarter on how to do my job.
if you go into a interview and they say: "show us how to get info from two tables using one select statement (sql)" and you can't do it...your screwed. if you can your in.
one last thing. all the teach now a days is java, asp, and VB. since when did academic and commercially viable solutions like perl and C get the shaft. no wonder employers will hire ppl w/o degrees, you can't get any education in those languages that are still very practical.
JediLuke
JediLuke
-Do or Do Not, There is no Try
But then more and more colleges and training centres offered courses and certificates and what have you allowing the stupidest idiot on the planet to get a piece of paper saying they could also repair keyboards if they could simply read a book and remember a few odd dozen statements and choose the correct multiple choice answer on a test.
This is probably why the companies I see now are starting to lean away from degrees and look at certifications. Although certifications still ask the same multiple choice questions, but they aren't just the same dozen or so constantly asked. They actually require the person to read the books and understand what they're reading. Of course they could go and memorize the hundreds of questions needed to write a test, but by doing that, they're really learning the information anyway.
So, don't go to college, keep your money and go buy the books for certification and study for a bit and write the damn test. You'll save money and time and have the same, if not more, knowledge than the people who go to college.
Unless of course the college offers co-op education and can place you on work terms. Then it's up in the air, as you have time and money on one hand, but job place experience on the other.
As for me, well, I stupidly decided to go to college and get a stupid piece of paper. I wasted my $8,500 Canadian and got a stupid piece of paper (honours and highest standing though, mind you) and ended up in a job that has nothing to do with my degree other than the fact that I can fix the network when it goes down.
Although this may have something to do with the credibility of the college I attended dropping sharply because many of the schmucks who were going at the same time I was thought they could get a free ride and in the end pooched their work terms and thus gave the college a bad name. And so now I'm out money and have a near worthless piece of paper on my wall.
Ah hell, this has turned into a rant. Better stop before I really get into it.
Oops!
Anyway, I also meant to say:
Just cause you're happy doing something now, doesn't mean you'll be happy doing it for the rest of your life. Having a degree under your belt can be used to other fields. Going back to school later in life to do an undergraduate degree is much harder than getting it out the way when you're young.
IMHO, I left college after two years because they weren't teaching critical thinking skills. Instead they were focused on vocational skill tracks. This has become increasing popular with American colleges as parents want to know that Johnny will be able to find a job after spending megabucks.
I don't believe schools are in the business of teaching critical thinking. The major role of k-12 schools is to provide day care and keep kids out of trouble. From there, most have reached an age where there can't wait to get away from their
parents, so most move to the local college where they learn a vocation because Whatsamatta U marketing spew boasts a 96% placement after graduation. Which would be fine and good, but, most of us change careers four times in our lives, making the vocational model a band-aid on a much larger problem.
besides, if I really want to learn more about critical thinking I will probably buy one of the 863 books listed at www.bn.com, most of which are probably used as "text books".
The economy is good, so there are plenty of jobs now. But how about 20 years from now, when most of the perl coding/c hacking/etc. has been moved to low wages countries such as india? As always the interesting jobs will go to well educated young people and experienced, well educated older people. Uneducated (i.e. without a formal proof of that education) will get the left over jobs.
Place yourself in the position of a future employer: one job two candidates. One with a master degree and some relevant experience, one without any degree and some experience. I'd hire the one with the master degree because that one has the brains to get a master degree and was strong enough to finish the job. The other one was a loser who went for the quick money and/or was not clever enough to finish his master/bachelor thesis.
Spending some time in college is time well spent. It will shine on your CV and you might actually learn something. The IT business is full with ignorant losers, you have to look for knowledgeable people with a candle. And when you find them you usually find out they did finish school.
Jilles
has a co-op program... You work and go to school alternating semesters in exchange for staying an extra year at school... You get a top notch education plus alot of practical experience. (this isn't "fetch my coffee boy" it's "change the routines to work with OpenSSL 0.95, finish the ODBC 2.5 routines, then start on the 3.0 driver")
I'm actually overloading on classes because I'm having such a blast in them. Sure, I could have taught all this stuff to myself, but I'm not arrogant enough to think that I'd be able to do a better job than some of the people who are being paid to do it for me... I say some because while most of my teachers have been great, there are still a few who aren't. ^^;;
There's nothing wrong with holding a professional IT job w/out a college college education... Hell, I was a computer tech Junior year of HS, and a web developer (backend, not frontend) Senior year... But from what I learned in college (things I overlooked because they weren't obvious, like data structures, run time analysis, induction) I can see that alot of the code I wrote way back when was inefficient/insecure and could definitely stand some improvement.
Obviously this doesn't apply to anyone except me because of one big deal: I'm in this because I like coding, I'm not in it for the cash. People who skip college for work are obviously going for those stock options, etc. But I'll be damned if I graduate without getting at least one cool research paper published.
Huge huge question: yes, money talks, so what? Where are you gonna find it easier to pick up nice chicks, after work in a bar or cocktail party or at a college? Skipping college for work is a choice, but I don't think it's a good one.
--
Peace,
Lord Omlette
ICQ# 77863057
[o]_O
If you can step out at 18/19/whatever and make a college grad's starting salary, and you feel you can grow your salary from there on at the same pace as a college grad, then there's no reason to go to school.
This does not mean anyone should skip college to work at an ISP or .com for $40K. That's stupid.
But if you know that you know your shit, and that college won't teach you much, and that you can prove these skills to your employer easily... and you can find an employer offering good money... do it.
I never attended college (well, I did, for about 3 weeks, then just walked off campus and left), instead going straight into tech jobs (not .com burnups) and I'm sitting here now at the age of 24, doing far better in every respect than the vast majority of grads I know.
The key differentiator boils down to: Are you getting a great job and pay in return for you above-average abilities, or is some shmuck looking to hire you as cheap college-age labor for a tech company. Your $40K-ish jobs are very cheap investments for most employers....
11*43+456^2
As a sysadmin/manager who hires admins on a regular basis I always look for those that have
college degrees.. Why? Out of the technology people I have come across.. the people with degrees or at least a lot of college (I have 140 credits done with 3 to go), imho have better business skills. By that I mean.. Being able to write well, present material, etc. These are critical skills that you NEED to master. Plus college provides a lot of time to grow up. Most 18 year olds would not be ready to handle the responsibilities I would give to them. Nor would I want an 18 year old making a major presentation to my VP (based on my experience with 18 year olds so far). Now of course there are going to be exceptions to the rule. Go to college, join a frat, Have Fun and study hard. You have the rest of your life to work. I am 29 now, which means I have about 30 more years to go. Plenty of time to amass my fortune. Now I understand how many people feel that comp sci degrees dont relate to real life skills. College does not teach you skills. It teachs theory, How one should format a proposal, Write a sort..etc.
If you feel you already know everything about compsci then do go for compsci. Otherwise pick another degree. I went to college for Biology.
As a recent college dropout, I believe that college did serve an important purpose in my life--it gave me a chance to grow up a little, get lots of beer, and find some jobs I wouldn't otherwise have been exposed to. I DIDN'T LEARN ANYTHING ABOUT PROGRAMMING THERE!!! I'm a good programmer. Not the best--there are many people I've worked with who have forgotten more than I'll ever know about programming. But I learn quickly, and I have enough initiative to ask questions and find the answers for myself. That's all you really need to succeed, in the vast majority of jobs. Not that there aren't jobs which do require a degree, but for most of them, its overkill and a waste of time. If you're in high school, want to be a programmer, and are wondering whether to go to college, do it for a couple of years, but don't waste them. Learn about yourself, and learn about your trade. When you get tired of it, find a job. But don't jump ship until you've got one.
"Education is what remains after what has been learned has been forgot". Certs and working knowlege are time limited. The education I'm getting at University is timeless. Sure that "Physics of Semi-conductors" class may not apply to my sys damin job, but figuring out complex realtionships between properties of physics definatly helps the overall thinking process.
Yup...I too made that mistake...what? Only 20 something hours of *class* a week...no problem;) Soon you'll have your nose buried in so many math and computer books that C or Java might become your native tongue and higher mathematical concepts will be floating around your brain as you brush your teeth. Good luck buddy...we all need it!
This summer I worked at a .com and got stock. This is good considereing I'm making a lot on it. However I did consider moving to California to take a tech job. I decided against it. College is good. Girls and parties are fun. Working in a (nearly) all male office over the summer gave me a new appreciation for the other sex. But i made the decision because I LIKE LEARNING ABOUT PROGRMAMING. Sure I'm a decent programmer right now but there's no way I could... say... impliment an operating system with TCP/IP from scratch right now. Also, I'm interested in grad school. I think that if I can come up with an interesting idea in grad school I can make my .com million$ rather than my current .com thousand$.
Great! I am so glad that so many people are leaving college early (or never going at all) and moving straight into the field. I say great because I know that in 10 years, I will need some technical people to do the work while I in mahogany road directing the technical aspects of a company.
I have found that by attending college, especially a business oriented college, you gain valuable experience that you will NEVER be able to learn quickly in the field. This is not because someone couldn't learn it, its just that you would never get an opportunity to do so. I currently make a great salary, and the company is willing to allow me the freedom to go to classes whenever it is necessary. I wouldn't trade it for the world.
If you want to stay at a technical level for the rest of your life, and pray that the job market doesn't suddenly take a nosedive in the next 20 years, then I say go for it and don't attend. Otherwise, if you want to increase your ability to move up the corporate ladder, and possibly ensure your employment, then you will need to attend college.
And to those of you who will try and mock this by saying "Oh, but I'm already making 6 figures", I say to you great. I'm happy for ANYONE who can make money these days, and I know you probably don't regret your decision. Yet, I also hope that you save enough money to retire at an early age, or hope that the job market stays up so that you will keep making your 6 figures.
-E
so you're making 40k doing web design... how long do you think this will last? you think web design is going to be around for the next 10 yrs?
the difference is that people with a high school education are learning what they need to learn for today's market.
the people getting a college education are learning to think (hopefully) so that they can adjust to whatever job market and marketable skills they need.
The experience he's reffering to is from the other side of the silicon, so to speak. CSc types (especially if they skip college) often lack communication skills, which can introduce just as many (or more) problems in the development cycle as technical flaws.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
or tubbies, it's hard to tell.
Do most geeks have upper management as a goal?
I would hazard a guess that the majority would answer no. I for example would much rather take on a technical lead rather than manage clueless and predominantly irritating people!
Besides which experience is far more important than having a piece of paper to tell you how smart you are. I left Uni after having a few personal problems, and managed to get myself a pretty good job, involved with GPRS, GSM etc.
Now I am looking for a new job, people couldn't care less if I have a degree or not. At the end of the day people are after your knowledge, your ability to express it (be it code, sys admin, consultancy etc.) and your ability to learn more.
With or without a degree, provided you can demonstrate the above characteristics you are sorted.
As an aside, how many muppet graduates are there? Where I work, say 5% of the grads are worth their salt. We have a software engineering graduate, that can't even work out Word, Excel, and has trouble dealing with the concept of a command line.
I also think that failing Uni, or dropping out, or whatever, has the effect of giving people a reality check. All of a sudden, you are in the real world and you have to cope! You lose your newbieness quite quickly. On the other hand graduates, who go straight on some graduate training scheme with a big corp, tend to lead quite a sheltered existence, and hence rate highly on my cluelessometer.
...up your arse.
/. that did not get a comp sci degree than did. The people who program as a hobby, not as a career, are the ones who know more about programming than most 4 year degree'd folks.
IMHO, college is a way for people who cannot get a job by outshining their peers to do so. Having a college degree is almost like being in the good 'ol boys network. I don't know why a lot of companies even bother to ask for 4 year degrees. Why the hell does my manager need a poly-sci degree to manage 20 people?
The only people who really need degrees are the doctor/engineer/lawyer types. Comp sci degrees? Not. When's the last time a computer science major actually went on to be a computer scientist? Most of 'em are programmers now. I quit myself because I wanted to be a sysadmin. Now I'm leaning more towards programming and development, but you still don't need a computer science degree to do that kind of stuff. I'm almost certain that there are more good programmers that read
Another important thing about programming, project management, I didn't hear about until I got into the real world. I don't think universitys (maybe with the exception of CalTech and MIT, et al.) really prepare their comp-sci students for the real world.
In defense of college...I loved it. I wish I had the resources to go back. I had more fun in college that I've ever had anywhere else. You can get all the sex, drugs and booze you'd ever want there. That's what college is good for.
I went to college, and graduate school, to pursue a dream I'd had since grade school. I was thiiis close to being a professional molecular biologist. Got two years into a PhD, published 4 papers off my work, had a good time. Some family business pulled me out of grad school, and I ended up teaching...math. The next job let me teach math and chemistry; I fit in a senior Bio II class once, just for kicks. Being a teacher got me using computers professionally, then for fun, then AS a profession. Now I'm a Unix/network engineer.
College isn't about career training anymore. A degree shows you have long-term goal priorities and a breadth of knowledge. Frankly, I sit up nights and watch the History Channel because I've grown to "like" it. Has nothing to do with my career. It has to do with breadth of interest, something that was fostered in college, and something that ended up providing me long-term marketability. I could go back into teaching tomorrow if I needed to, and a 30-yr-old with a degree gets taken seriously when he has two years' experience in his current field.
-j
If all your knowledge come from expereince, then you only know what you've done. How depressing would that be?
CVS is teh suck. Use Vesta instead.
The way I see it, people go to college to get a good job right? I mean, people don't go to college just for the fuck of it. They go to get the knowledge and the degree to get a good job. In the tech world, its not hard to find a good job, hence most tech don't feel a need to go to college. I've been working with computers / networks since I was 18. I'm 22 now, and all that matters is my experience and knowledge. I have a good job, and didn't go to college to get it. Colleges can't keep up with the constant changes in technology, so anything you learn there will be the fundamentals (if you didnt know them already). They do teach you stuff like how an ALU works, various low level stuff, but after that everything else is irrelevant. College is for the people that aren't ready yet for the real world. That wish that the real world was like high school.
witty sig goes here
Now I interview candidates for our company. I was so amazed to find out how clueless some of the candidates who did even had a Masters degree about real world matters. (ie if I ask some one which language you would pick for a certain project, C++ / Java, most of them weren't able to make a judgement using technical merit. That was one simple example). I am not tarnishing degrees at all. I have met some great minds from Univs.
What I was told is US bachelors are a bit shallow and people do the 'real' thing in masters. Dunno how true this is. But from my experience interviewing candidates this seems to have a bit of truth in it.
My take is
Get a degree if you can, but also get as much work experience as possible while you are studying. This will prepare you real world and will give you a taste for it early on. That is what I did, and it certainly helped me land on very good jobs later. Your intern doesn't have to be good paying job. Just get the experience and references. BUild up your network. This will help you a lot when you are looking for a full time job later.
I had a friend back in Univ, who is a high-scorer (avg 95%) and a very keen / hard working student. I am a 75-80% student. But I had very atractive offers purely b/c I had managed to find some summer / part time work (course related of course) when ever I can.
In today's market, if you have a good foundation (a degree) and some solid work experience (summer / part time) you are GOLD .
We almost hired a very bright young programmer who hadn't gone to college. He scored VERY high on the BrainBrench.com C and C++ skills tests, and had other good credentials.
I asked him to provide some example code for me to look at, and he gave me a a short example where he had to optimize a C++ program that did a string rewrite (ie. convert character "A" into "BC", etc.) for a specified number of times. He precomputed the translation once, and gave up there, not realizing that he had taken steps toward moving from a O(N) algorithm to an O(N lg N) algorithm.
It was clear that he had never been drilled in recognizing certain algorithmic patterns, and thus his optimizations employed many language speed up tricks to make C++ faster, but largely ignored using a simple but better algorithm to improve the speed. I rewrote it to use the better algorithm (compute string replacements for levels 2, 4, 8, etc., when needed, rather than 1-N) and eliminate the repeated string copy (by rewriting front to back, then back to front, in a single buffer), and beat his "optimized" version.
In short, while he was great with language skills, particularly w/ C++, he had a lot to learn about algorithms in general, which is the kind of formalism that a university will drill you in, and which is very helpful. For the type of numerical and graphical software development we are doing, it is almost critical.
Still, we would have hired him anyway, but he decided to work elsewhere. Language skills alone made him quite valuable to many employers. But for someone who seemed as talented and bright as he was, he could really achieve much more.
"It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
Seriously, one of the best lessons learned in college can be socialization. Interacting with your colleagues and still being responsible for work and accountable to testing. And the part about meeting girls is true. No one should be in THAT big of a hurry to get to the cubicle.
Yep thats right I left a rather prestigious engineering school to go and try my hand in the corprate world. This was back in 94 when the job market was not quite as good as it is today.
But I got hired on three contracting jobs when I simply admited that I used to crack software copy protection as a hobby in jr. high and high school.
Who knew at that time that being a "criminal" in my younger days would get me a rather well paying job.
Now six years later I am making more money than most of my friends who stayed in college are and I don't have a massive college loan to pay off.
The reasons why I left though were because I already knew everything that they were teaching me. They were concentrating on the mathematical aspects of programming to teach the people how to logically approach a problem. Which I will admit is really necesary for people who are coming to Computer Sciences completely cold. But the continued curiculums were only in how to use Unix, how to program in C, and that was pretty much it. All of these things you can learn at your local book store or by searching the internet for the correct resources.
But hey if you want to have that college degree and be in the IT industry... get a major in something you enjoy, and minor in CS... the minor is all you are going to really need. That is what I am doing now I am working on getting my BA Philosophy right now.
Recently, Fortune updated their "40 Richest Under 40" Index. Meaning, it lists the 40 richest people under 40 living in America.
Every single person on that list is an executive or founder of a technology company - with the exception of Number 40: Michael Jordan, and even he is on the Board of Directors for MVP.Com.
Now, guess how many graduated from college? More than half? Hah. The site is slow, so I wish I could go and count how many of them actually did, but I remember that many of them dropped out, and one never even went - the former CEO of Datek Online was once Datek's mailroom clerk.
Should techies not going to college expect to become that rich? Certainly not, but there's no reason that forgoing academia can lead to a dismal life...
The list is here.
You should never take life too seriously - You'll never get out of it alive.
Trends will always have exceptions, but every IT salary survey I have ever seen that asked about college education has always placed salaries for degreed individuals higher than non-degreed individuals.
In a population (such as /. readers) where there is an abnormally high percentage of highly skilled there will be an abnormally high level of anecdotes about degree-less techs making a killing.
For most people, however, a four year degree will virtually always pay off over time. The average salary for degreed IT workers is about 20k higher than non-degreed IT workers. Degreed workers have higher ceilings when moving up the ladder in their career.
And as always, those with sharp enough skills will start their own consultancies and and bring in lots of dough whether they have a degree or not.
Do you know exactly what you want to do with the rest of your life? Most people that are college age don't, and college is a really good place to start to figure this out. If on the other hand, you wake up in the morning with a desire to program so intense that it almost hurts you might be better off going into the workforce. I left an ivy after 2 years to join a .com consulting company, and haven't really run into any stumbling blocks yet (4+ years later). Don't get me wrong- you have to be better than everyone else with a college degree, but as long as you can pull that off your golden.
There are many situations where I agree the college experience is irrelevant.
There is a large class of "techies" who are "blue & white" collar workers - they primarily have MCSE or some such, work regular hours @ a pretty regular company (although they might work FOR a different one, that's virtualization) college wouldn't help them a lick in their jobs, and their path is not terribly different than that of any other tradesman, like a plumber for instance. Both are pretty well paid, both are doing semi-repetitive work, but adapting solutions to situations. The techie has cleaner hands, usually. This is a pretty good existance, but I don't want to be that person (nor do a lot of people in those jobs, I think) I want to make a difference.
I wrestled with this to some extent and here's what I came up with: College is there to expand your mind and train you how to think. If you are most extraordinary, you don't need it. But almost everyone would benefit from the experience, especially if setup correctly.
I couldn't bear the thought of getting a CS degree only to have everything I've learned by 90% irrelevant 3 days after I graduate. So I got a minor instead. If this idea bothers you, here's my recommendation if you can take it (i.e. you are more extraordinary than most, but not so conceited to think you don't need college) hard engineering. Possibly hard science. Or a strong business degree. With a minor in CS. Hang out with CS geeks, sure. But you will have gained a LOT in college. Your credibility will start high, and you'll be miles ahead of any one-horse techie.
I majored in Mechanical Engineering. I can't begin to tell you how many CS majors I know who can't figure out a regression line. So many applied math and fail-safe ideas, tested by centuries of engineering, are applicable to making GOOD technology, the exact opposite of microsucks.
And, if you ever get too old to be employed in Technology (which apparently happens these days) you have something to fall back upon.
It's an Edge. It's served me well so far.
Looking for freelance Actionscript (Flash/Flex) or ColdFusion work and/or freelance developers. Email me, put Slashdot
I've seen the opinion that your professor expressed put forth many times before, and there's really one problem that always sticks out for me.
In college, knowledge is one's reward, so to speak. One is paying the college for the privilege of being taught by their professors, using their facilities, etc. In the workplace, one's employer is the person who's paying for services.
Personally, in school, I felt very unmotivated for this very reason. If I found a class boring, or a waste of my time, then my money was being wasted. The best I could do to motivate myself was "oh, well, I'll get a degree, and that'll help me get a job". Needless to say, that's not too motivational.
If I'm working on a project that I feel is a waste of my time at work, I at least have the fact that I'm actually being paid, and it's up to my employer to determine how my time is spent at work (to a point).
I feel much more obligation and responsibility in the workplace than I ever did in school, and this affects my actual output significantly.
--
Kevin Doherty
kdoherty+slashdot@jurai.net
Kevin Doherty
kdoherty+slashdot@jurai.net
For decades, plumbers, masons and carpenters were tradesmen heroes. That's changed for some reason: at some point, it became a joke to be a plumber, but when you really need one, its very hard to find one with integrity and skill. Most of you will learn that the first time you buy a house.
I look at IT as the tradesmen of the 21st century. ITers are like the 'physical laborers' of the new age. Granted, they need a considerable amount of skill (I've tried my hand at masonry, it ain't easy).
Vertical IT skills can be learned at one's own pace. They are very focused and are a skill, I'd say a trade. And you can definitely make a healthy living off of it.
For mature enough individuals who don't need day-care, college is a very valuable place to be for four or more years. No where else do you have the opportunity to learn so much so quickly. It is a very broad learning arena.
I question anyone who would say you can learn the same stuff at your own pace that you learn at college. That's a complete load. (Well, assuming you are referring to a real college.) College is an 50-80 hour a week job. There's no time to learn that hard, that fast, with knowledgable mentors.
---
Unto the land of the dead shalt thou be sent at last.
Surely thou shalt repent of thy cunning.
https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
With only one variable assocaited with each asset, (value and not
weight) your asset problem isn't 0-1 Knapsack. It looks similar to
the Bin Packing problem, which is NP hard.
Whatever happened to knowledge for the sake of kowledge? College should not be simply about getting a degree to make money--but rather about a preparation for life & continued learning as a whole. "Cura Personalis" as Marquette University puts it, "Care for the whole person." For my age, I have a very good job as a Java programmer. The company I work for would take me full time in a second. However, I feel my education is something that it is important for me to complete. Thus, I'm taking the "golden mean"--9 credits/semester school, 35 hrs/week work. It allows me to apply what I learn immediately, make a decent amount of money for a college student doing what I love, continue steadily in my studies, and still get trashed on weekends. Life is good :-)
I was really frustrated with the classes I had to take that were going to be if no use to me. My folks were none too pleased with me, but now they are happy that I dont hit them up for money. I will go back to school eventually, I even live in a college town which will make it easier for me.
Where am I going and why am I in this handbasket?
As far as schooling goes, if you are really interested you can buy the books you need at the store and read them on your own. As for technical questions, those can be asked in news groups if you can't get the help you need at work. To keep up with the new stuff, take a course like developmentor or something similar. You get a good amount of information in a short period of time with no courses like "women's leisure studies" that one of the part timers here is taking at school.
And as for the big $$$ drying up. I'm sure it will, but I've invested my money in another business (a restaurant) that will make me more money than I'm making now so I can sit on my butt all day and code what I want.
As for being "well rounded", I have no college but I lived in Germany for 2 years while in the military, I owned a business in Thailand where I went frequently and now I'm opening another business overseas. I can speak some German, Thai, and Tagalog and I know the geography of the world far better than I could learn in a boring class. All in all it seems like college sets you up for the 9-5 grind style of life. Sure the gold rush will end some day. By then I'll already have all the gold I need.
Sorry, I can't come to work today. I'll be at the beach with my laptop.
I met a geek recently, in fact, he told me about Slashdot. This is guy is WAY out. He's 21 years old, has no degree, talks about weird things, and is generally quite interesting. He finished high school and did really well, but decided not to go on to college, but instead studied for two certifications. On the course, he soon became bored with the pace of the certifications and did 2 extra certifications in the year-long course. He ended up with an A+, N+, MCSE and MCSD. (Even though he got the MS certifications, he hasn't used any Microsoft products in the products he created.)
So, when he was 19 he finished the course he was on and instead of going to work for a local MS shop that extended an offer to him, he went to work for an Equine institute. When I asked him why he took half the salary he could have, he exclaimed, he "just wanted to pet the horses"!!! Now, if that's not interesting, I don't know what is. He eventually went on to form an allainace with a top Equine official from another company, and wrote certain software (I'm not going to name the software or the individual, besides the fact that it has to do with E-commerce, because I don't want to "out" the individual because of certain other things), that has been a hit in the Equine industry, world-wide. He's now got more than $25 million dollars in his bank account.When I asked him what it was written in and what it ran on, he told me that instead of using Microsoft products, he decided to use FreeBSD 3.5, Apache, Perl, Python, and Zope, with some C modules, even though his "education" was in Microsoft products!! Later he was fired for having been caught having sex with the mares at the company he worked for, but the software he wrote had already raked in more than their original business. So, you see, while he doesn't have a college degree, he is strange, weird, and knows his stuff well enough to write a product that is widely regarded in Ecommerce business.
In college, classes only occupy a small portion of your day. Unlike work in an IT department, which we leave you drained and too tired to really do meaningful independent work, college will leave you with plenty of time to pursue whatever you want.
:)
I can't wait to hear you say how much free time you have during college after you've been there a while and get bogged down with actual work
we're just taking our time with it. You can get 50k a year w/out a degree right now and its keeping the geeks n techies out of college at the moment.. we'll get there, but just not until we've made some money. :)
-=Gargoyle_sNake
-=-=-=-
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
I believe that if a person is ready and able to tackle the IT world at a young age, they should go for it. However, the people I was able to network with when I was at college made the extra four years a great investment for my future.
- js
www.ridiculopathy.com
When we are growing up, we think we know everything. As we get older, this doesn't change, but the amount we do know increases and approaches the amount we think we know. At a young age like 18 or so, it is pretty easy to make a really stupid decision that we felt was informed at the time.
This, in my opinion, is where parents come into play. They know a heck of a lot more about life than you, and you should value their opinion. If they, after reviewing with you your options of employment vs college, fervently say that you should go to college, then maybe you should go to college. I learned a lot about life in college, I learned a lot about people in college, and I learned a lot about learning and growing mentally in college. I also learned that college was the right thing for me to do. Perhaps if you go to college, you will learn it is the wrong thing for you.
- Communication skills - most high schools, even good ones, seem to avoid this, and though they offer the standard college-prep course, it's laughable (Let's analyze works of fiction, instead!). In my school back in the 80s, parents would call up teachers and complain that their children had too much schoolwork (HA!) and the first thing would be dropped would be essays and papers. Even a decent college education will tell you how to present ideas appropriately for both formal and personal communication, and this is NOT a skill that can be easily picked up by programming -- you need to have the critiquing that completes this. And given that code should be 50% comments, I'd think this is highly necessary.
- Teamwork - I hate it too, as I was always an individual learner, but you have to be able to work in a team in today's society. While the way many OSS projects are run are like that, you sometimes don't have the choice of who's on board your team, and you have to work with them personally, thus the group assignments they give in college are very necessary.
- Responsibility - College is odd - you go typically from an envirnoment that you don't control (due to parents, teachers, etc), to one where you have nearly full control. Many students have problems adjusting to this, as seen by freshmen dropout rates, the Freshmen 15, and how many go running back home to find part-time jobs to pay for extras that they initially thought they could afford. However, after 4 years of this, most learn how to handle their time and money to be able to do well in classes and still enjoy themselves. Showing this type of responsibility can be impressive to a potental boss, knowing that you know how to manage time and resources. Many (not all) high school kids can do that.
Those are just a few, I strongly believe there is more. And there are cases where skipping college may certainly be justified, but that doesn't work for 99% of those going into IT out there.But with colleges now aiming towards 5 yr programs, costing more and more, and the fact that IMO computer science/eng training tends to be about 3 years behind the rest of the world and focuses too much on specific aspects instead of a general feel for it, suggests that those that doubt the need for college will feel justified in skipping, and may or may not succeed later in life. It would be nice for companies that do actively hire students out of high school to provide tuition credit for night classes or online degrees, if only to help train their employee better.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
I'm sure that there are good coders who never went to college and bad ones who did. One of the only two people we had to fire in 12 years at our company was fresh out of college with a brand new Masters degree. He came highly recommended by his professors and even had code samples, etc. It turned out he couldn't program his way out of a paper bag. (Maybe that fact that his name was Hak had something to do with it.)
As far as job requirements, I remember in about 1978 seeing an ad looking for someone with 15 years experience with microprocessors.
Later in life, that realization comes in handy, because you (hopefully) spend more time trying to figure out all the ramifications of a problem, (and your proposed solution) rather then just jumping at some solution that came in a shrink-wrapped box, or is being pushed by that comission-only sales guy in your office.
While arrogance and complete self-assuredness (or is that egomania) is sometimes succesfull and frequently amusing to watch, it more often results in spectacular crash and burn outcomes.
A company usually cares only about you doing the (very narrow) job you were hired for. They are not going to spend time and money exposing you to other knowledge which will not benefit them directly, today.
Hey Radio Shack! Thanks for the !Kew:;Katt. I'm dressing mine in a tiny penguin suit!
Your wallet stays open. Our source remains closed. We are MSFT
RANT
Everyone who says that going to college is falling behind in the field is adding to my growing list of reasons to bring back clinical lobotomies. Pure and simple.
They think that learning to hack out a shopping cart is what CS is about. Sure, they can learn that without college. They probably learned to do all these things from ``Teach Yourself Perl in 24 Hours'' or some other shit book.
This sentiment infuriates me. They think they're not going to learn anything by going to college... Okay, then, these 37331 boyz know how to write CGI scripts. It'll land them their dream $70K webmaster jobs. Now, maybe they could explain to me briefly Turing's Halting Theorem and present an informal proof in a paragraph or less. Or maybe explain the Knuth-Morris-Pratt string matching algorithm and present a proof of correctness. Or... how about implementing user-level multithreading with continuations and briefly explaining what basic problems need to be overcome once the basic operators (fork et al.) are implemented.
These people can't do those things, whereas a college undergrad could, probably starting around sophomore year. And guess what, that college kid knows more about better coding and theoretical CS than the high-school dropouts ever will. College educations make for much better programmers, even if graduates do not choose to become computer scientists per se. Having a college education is not about falling back by four years, it's about spending four years learning about how to be very very good at what you do.
Sadly, these 18-year old high school kids are probably more likely to get hired than a 23-year old college graduate for some jobs. The reasons are that (1) they don't need to be paid as much, and (2) that they know all the latest buzzword languages (Java, C#, Delphi, etc.). The college kid will have the background to pick up this buzzword crap quickly, but will not necessarily have it on his resume. Very sadly, that makes a huge difference when it comes to hiring, though the college graduate will be doing a far better job simply because he will have learned e.g., good coding techniques.
Aside from these purely practical considerations, the kids who go from high school into the workforce are missing out on other things. Ever hear the phrase ``well-rounded?'' Well, I personally know of no more boring entity than someone who can only talk about computers. A college graduate will at least have been forced to learn something about art, history, literature, and science (other than CS). That makes for far better people.
I look for college graduates when I hire not for proof of technical competence, but for evidence of some exposure to social sciences, literature, geography, and history. The real question is, do you want to go through life as a machine programmed to perform a certain function, or do you want to live as a human being, with awareness and appreciation for what your species has accomplished, both for good and for ill? In effect, skipping college and going straight to work in a high-tech field is a form of self-exploitation; you are denying yourself some pretty basic enrichment experiences if you fall into that trap. Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. You can't learn from something you don't know about.
It's your life. Be a shallow, unenlightened techno droid if you want. Most of you probably won't even realize what you're missing; more's the pity.
yeah and all the people raking in the $$$ don't even have degrees! this is my example...though it would be difficult to get where they are.
JediLuke
JediLuke
-Do or Do Not, There is no Try
It doesn't seem to make much difference whether or not you have a degree. Employers care much more about certifications, when you're in the tech field. The only thing a degree proves is that you are good at school. I'm extremely lousy at school because of a lack of motivation. Work, however, is motivating to me, because they give me money when I do what they tell me. This is, all things considered, a good thing.
I started with tech jobs when I was 15, working for the County of Santa Cruz's MIS department at County Health, making $7.40 an hour. I worked my way up from there, through a systems admin job here in town, tech support (for a CORBA-based enterprise management package, in Austin, TX; You figure out who it was), Lab Admin for Cisco in Santa Cruz, IT Lead in SF, and now I'm IT Lead again back here in Santa Cruz.
None of these employers were the least bit perturbed by the fact that I don't have a degree. They also weren't concerned with whether I have a certification or not, either. What they were worried about was that I knew what I was talking about, that I had done good work in the past, that I had a varied background, and that I enjoyed this kind of work. Everything else falls into place behind those facts.
If you're not the type who takes to computers naturally but would like to work in the field for whatever reason (money is frequently a deciding factor) then you should get a degree AND a certification, like MCSE. Then you can get a job running an Exchange server for $75k/year, which basically consists of websurfing until someone needs a user added to the server.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Being student is sometimes fun. In college you meet new people. Find a girlfriend :) Have parties. Do everything stupid you cant do in "grown up" life. And most important you have chance to explore anything you want in science, instead of coding what you boss told you to.
There's already getting to be a noticible problem of programmers being very poorly rounded (no jokes about diet, please :). In regard to technical subjects, this is already bad enough, with lots of people running around who don't know languages other than C++ or Java, who think that "operating system" = "Linux or Windows," who have never done any reading about human/computer interaction, and so on. In regard to other subjects, I'd call the situation pretty grim, with a majority of geeks poorly read outside of mainstream science fiction, for example. Yes, that is also the stereotype, but there is truth there, and one response of "Well, I don't like science fiction" isn't going to change it.
Why is getting outside the traditional geek circle important? Because not doing so can lead to extreme close-mindedness, as witnessed by all the pointless debates over meaningless tech subjects (Perl vs. Python, Linux vs. Windows, Emacs vs. vi, NVidia vs. 3dfx, Intel vs. AMD). There's also a tremendous creative force outside of the geek community, or at least big enough of a force that the geek community looks pretty weak in comparison. Garage bands with their own style of music. Authors who are compelled to bring their visions to life. In the open source programming world, there's getting to be a disturbing in-bred feeling, with people running in circles cloning things and acting like they're a movement to be reckoned with. More and more, though, the Linux and open source communities are not living up to all the hype that they are getting. You read about Linux in the Wall Street Journal, you read Eric Raymond's writing, and you expect astounding things. But we're not getting any of that. We're getting weird debates about how GUIs are for lusers and command lines for the 3r33+. And there are big sites devoted to Linux games, and we're just seeing (a) ports from PC titles, and (b) lots of riff-raff rehashes of games from twenty years ago or earlier.
Getting out of the circle is important. Programming is relatively easy. Unless you want to get a PhD and get into heavy research, I highly recommend that techie-types go to college and major in something other than computer science. History, literature, or business or liberal arts would be better choices. Seriously.
I would argue the latter. There are plenty of resources available to teach oneself how to do these things. And frankly that would be preferable for me than attending boring lectures. And with the 'net there are always plenty of people to talk to if you have problems.
Get a job, earn shitloads, take 2 years off to do your own stuff when you are that much more mature to appreciate it.
- The economy is good now, but it won't always be.
- The Internet gold rush is, for the most part,
over. Your chances of making millions from stock options, after working only a couple years, are very slim.
So take a long term view of your career.
- If you're interested in programming, understand this: the software industry is incredibly ageist. Unless you're exceptionally brilliant, you may be unable to find work as a programmer past the age of 40!
If you don't believe what I'm saying, or you think I'm exaggerating, please seeThe fact remains the people who are good at what they do don't need a college degree to prove it. However, I can't believe I'm saying this, there is the idea of broadening your horizions. If you can go to a half way decent institution odds are you'll meet some really smart people. Reguardless of what their major or area of research they may inspire you to do somthing you normally would not. I was a computer geek through my very recent college years, but I also acted, preformed music, helped build set for a play. There were people smart and interesting enough to convince me to remove myself from in front of the computer screen. I like to think of myself a s a decent computer guy, but because of college I learned how to do more than drink beer and code. I like to think my life is more interesting because of it. The same cannot be said for everyones experience in college, but it worked for me.
BOFH, My model for being a sysadmin :)
Amen to that. I managed two years of school, but finances and circumstances dictated that I drop out and look for work. Four years later, I finally break into the computer field and start saving up money to go back to school. Bearing in mind that a political science degree doesn't count for squat in computers, this means I get to start all over again.
Or should I just take my high-paying tech job and run with it? It's not like I actually want to go into middle management.
There is no problem which cannot be resolved by the judicious use of firepower.
The techies should skip college. They can get 4 years of industry experience. With those four years should net something around 70k+. When you factor in things like a decent 401k compounded over those 4 years how can you go wrong.
However that initial edge will only hold for so long, look at what html and xml were like 4 years ago. 4 years ago Java was a POS (IMO).
But when the college grads have 4 years, and the non-grads have 8! The non-grads are also moving into management positions. Oh, wait, management positions usually require degree of some sort, and MBA's are highly desireable.
Of course there are companies who don't care about degrees, and techies who want to not be managers.
Then again I know a couple of non-grads who have a hell of a time finding work, inspite of ability. One has who knows how many years of UNIX, the other had 4-8 years of IT experience. Funny neither of my them have a 401k. Coincidence?
--Rob
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
Techie nerds who skip college are lonely. Techie nerds who attend college see some action and graduate with a girlfriend / boyfriend / spouse. The 1% of techies who are players are the exception. For most nerds their closest friend is their right hand (left hand?).
Now back to history. We can learn history on our own, but it would be nice if someone would help answer our questions when we are stuck, help pace us through our studies and put us in an environment where we can get feedback from our peers... oh wait a second.. the educational system does that. Gosh how about that.
Griffis
most companies won't let you be management anyway, so who cares?
:)
Its the ones that are a GOOD FIT [shock shock] and don't have stupid people thinking like you that matter
Take this personaility test.
There may be quite a few "self-made intellectuals" out there, but nothing can replace the interchange that takes place within a community of learning. Communication skills are essential to good product (and personal) development, and college is the best choice for the vast majority of people to develop those skills. If there's one thing I regret about my college years, it's that I didn't indulge myself with more philosophy, history, or lit courses.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
The question shouldn't be "Is college relevant to my career?" but rather "Is college relevant to my life?"
I feel sorry for people who treat college as just four years of task-training and ignore the possibility of expanding your exposure to other walks of life, other disciplines, art, music, literature, sport, and everything else.
I don't just bring my technical training to work, I bring my entire self and everything I know and love and hate and have been exposed to.
College helped show me how to be a well-rounded human being. It gave me more to live for than just jobjobjob 24/7. College is there to teach us not only how to learn new things, but what new things there are to be learned.
I definitely think that is the track that young IT seekers should be thinking about - the "trainable" model vs being "trained" to do something. But one other major point to consider is WHERE you want to work. My good friend dropped out of college and got a great consulting job - but the company has headquarters in New York (we're in Toronto) and it is nearly impossible to get a US (and I'm told, most other countries) work Visa without a college diploma. Luckily he was able to get a lesser degree from what corses he completed - because otherwise he would have had to turn down a $250K US/year job! So If for nothing else, consider your diploma your "travelling pass" - there are a lot of opportunities for tech's who are willing to move.
Well, I've got a BSc in Chemistry and Physics, and (almst) a masters in Materials Science.
I just turned down a job writing code (for a games company). Ok, that's my choice (I want to go academic. But he fact that I had the degree got me the (unsolicited) offer.
So, on to the why.
The company in question is hurting for people. Not for bottom rung programmers, (It's situated with 10 universites within commuting distance), but for people who understand the real world, on an algorithmic level.
For example, they had a CS graduate, who wrote a bunch of code, which they binned. It was very elegant, implemented the design algorithm to the letter, but was too slow, and the guy didn't know how to simplyfy the algorithm.
Skipping collage may get you a job punching code. It will not get you a job doing design. You know, the really lucrative area.
Couple of points I'd like to add to the discussion. College is really just a creative environment. We toss some brilliant people into a pot together, who have a variety of knowledge, skills, and backgrounds, and stir occasionally.
Some have said, "If one can teach themselves technology, one can do the same with History, English, Philosophy..." This is not true. Hard science can be learned from a book. The humanities rely much more on discourse. Ultimately, they teach a person how to think things through and resolve issues that don't have a single answer, which is more important than any single discipline.
A job is not a person, and vice-versa.
On a side note: I would appreciate if people would teach themselves the difference between there, their, and they're. And just cause the spell-checker says loose is spelled correctly, doesn't mean you should use it instead of lose.
We had an ugly internal flame war about education the past few days. It was between the people who know certifications are worthless as an indicator of knowledge, and the people who know that they help you to get promoted by the PHB's running the show. Of course they're both right. EDS is famous around here for getting IT interns over the summer, luring them into not going back to school in the fall with 30-40K/year, then trapping them in low-level developer positions for life. After all, they don't have degrees, do they?
DO you want to skip college to be the Information Age equivalent of a line worker?
Or go to college to be the Information Age equivalent of an engineer?
I got more out of my enlisted military service in SIGINT/Crypto than I did out of my university education. Right now, if I were to state the ideal candidate for almost any IT job that I hire for, I would say 2 year degree to give a bit of technical depth, 2 years military (in a tech specialty or else in the Cavalry - you really have to think there as a Cavalry Scout), and one year on-the-job consulting in a couple of assignments. I've found that the skills they learn in 2 years is enough to get them started as coders or net techs, the 2 years military gives them perspectives on what hard work *really* is (plus teaches resiliency, independence, teamwork and leadership), and the one year consulting gives them a bit of depth in terms of working in the IT world. Thats a lot better than the 4 year grads who often come equipped with academic skills but are absoulte morons when it comes to business pratices, work ethic or ability to function without being "managed".
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo! http://goo.gl/J9bkO
College:
1. Too slow - I can learn most things in a couple of weeks instead of a semester.
2. You are required to take unnecessary classes and pay for them - I am not an artist, I don't pretend to be one nor do I wish to be one. With that in mind, why do I need art classes?
3. Schedules can be insane - I can break my day on my own, thank you.
4. Why worry about all that extra stress of exams?
5. Too time is wasted on things that should be optional, such as homework. If you go to educate yourself and pay your money, it's in your own interests to learn without pressures of optional activities.
6. Why do I need to learn something yet again if I wasn't interested in it in the first place? I already know advanced physics and such, why do I need to take physics again?
I work as a high level consultant and I am very happy with my life without a degree. And no, I am not underpaid.
--
Leonid S. Knyshov
Leonid S. Knyshov
Find me on Quora
Although there hasn't been one lately,
when the economy gets rough, non-degree people
are discriminated against.
You will never again have so much time to devote to (pottery/photography/alcohol/porn/real math/SCA/insert your own pastime) again. Work is hard, and no matter how much you like what you're doing, it's work. Take the time to be a kid.
I have lot of experience with this one. On a less than 10 year horizon, skip college. But doing so is a gamble you may eventually regret. Please read on.
I was around for the last great tech gold rush (late 70's-early 80's). At the time there were six of us who were crack progammers. (in BASIC -- this was a long time ago 8). Three of us jumped into the new economy, even ditching high school in two cases, while three of us did college and graduate school.
At 10 years (age 25), it was obvious. The college attenders were idiots. The three of us who were slogging through lectures were dramatically poorer than the jumpers. David was on Borland's C compiler team. Brian was number 2 at a software startup.
At 20 years, (now), it's no contest. All that "stupid college stuff" has paid off in spades. The three collegians have left the jumpers behind. What stock options can give so quickly, they can take away just as fast. More importantly, college is not supposed be about job training, it's supposed to be about gaining perspective and practicing learning. Indeed, none of us three collegians use our original job skills for our current wealth, and two of us barely use our college gained "job skills."
In summary, if you skip college you are making the "hollywood bet." A lucky few will be stars (eg. Bill Gates). Some will have good jobs as supporting characters or the key grip. And a shocking number will be walking Sunset Avenue sucking off people with college degrees.
"one treats others with courtesy not because they are gentlemen or gentlewomen, but because you are" --G. Henrichs
James Carse's distinction may be helpful here:
"To be prepared against surprise is to be trained.
To be prepared for surprise is to be educated."
I decided that behaving ethically was the most nihilistic thing I could do. - Paul Pavel
My advice to anyone: if you can afford to go to college, DO IT! Sure, you think you're smart, you think you can make good money right out of high school, and you think you don't need college, right?
WRONG! Because not matter how much of a waste you think college is, it is the only time in your life where you will have oodles of free time to work on the things that directly reflect your interests. Do you think its any coincidence that most of the stuff on freshmeat is the work of bored college students? Or that most open source projects, before the hype started, were started by people in college or working for a college?
Sure, you can learn programming on the job. But you're always going to have the pressure of the bottom line dictating what you need to know and how long have to learn it. You're never going to have the luxary to learn things the right way. And unless you like spending all your waking time in front of a computer or textbook, you're never going to have the time or the patience to learn the more theoretical apsects of computer science. This is the stuff that seperates the MCSE's from the kernel hackers.
I say if you can afford it go to school. But if you cannot go ahead and get a job. It's what I did. I started out at a mom and pop computer shop making $6.00 an hour. Long hours and the pay sucked. Now though I work for a large ISP in KY and I make damn good money. I never went to college. It can be a hard road but for some the only road that we can afford.
Had you stopped there I could have agreed 100%. But the remainder of your post misses the point that all else is rarely equal.
Of course experience matters - the discussion is not about education vs experience in the long term, but about whether or not education is optional, and it is not.
A friend of mine was talking with a sales--- um, 'enrollment counselor' at a tech school his son was looking at. The 'counselor' mentioned that without an education the boy would never amount to anything. At that, both father and son got up to leave since he is a very successful IT consultant who travels the country, commands a high fee and has no degree.
Conversely, I had to train a recent college grad who had the cognitive ability of a turnip (if I've offended any turnips, my apologies). The only thing that expanded during his college years was his waistline. The boy would eat two dozen maple donuts for breakfast every morning.
Some folks learn a great deal through the give-and-take intellectual free-for-all that college can be. For others, college is spiraling GPA's and a string of parties. Still others choose not to go to college at all. Some people who go to college have made a mistake. Some people who don't go to college have made a mistake. Formal education is optional. The trick is determining which is the best option for the individual.
--
As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
The point was that, all else being equal, a diploma beats lack thereof. Of course experience matters - the discussion is not about education vs experience in the long term, but about whether or not education is optional, and it is not.
In real reality, the person who can do the job cheaper will get the job. Superior technology, education, whatever... The accountants make the hiring decisions, especially when money is scarce. A $50k/annum 'seasoned veteran' will end up on his arse when a green newbie with the right buzzwords on his resume accepts a job at $25k.
For a father of 2 driving-age teens, with a mortgage, car payments, insurance and the prospect of putting kids through college, a salary requirement of $70k/yr is exactly that - a requirement. For a kid used to roommates and Ramen, $35k is a windfall. Money is relative.
As for employers honoring experience... Does it ever rain in your pretty little world? I grew up in the North East during it's boom-time. Subsequently, I've seen too many career engineers get laid off as their kids started school, just because it made sense on the bottom line. Snap out of it, and invest in proof of adapibility, an education, and don't forget to minor in something OTHER than your field of choice. Diversified interests are an investment in the future.
The REAL jabber has the /. user id: 13196
The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
What you do today will cost you a day of your life
In most tech related fields, I've found that work experience and certifications are worth far more than a degree. Having a degree basically means you read a couple of books and showed up for class - it doesn't mean you know anything. Work experience is a key here. There is a big difference between knowing HOW to do something and having actually done it.
...All I can say is that my life is pretty strange...
I've done High School. I've been offered a Job at a really cool Startup. I've join as the 3rd employee and we are now more than 120 people. I'm now a Firmware designer for 1year and I'm 18 yrs old. I make good money and I have a lot of Options (beaty of startup :).
I've learn programming by myself (Thanks to Linux and the open source community) wich I believe is better than any teaching a school could give me because I had to do it the hard way.
My point is, if you can join a Startup and have a chance of making it to IPO hell it worth it because I could be retired at 20 yrs old hehe :)
If it doesn't work out, well the hell with it I'll either go back to school or start my own .com
It doesn't work for everyone. You need to love learning by yourself and maybe you need to hate school after all :)
Do your own decision and live with it. That's my quote.
* I've also learn my own english so don't flame *
J.
In my first year of college I took many programming and computer courses that showed me just how little I knew about the big picture. While I could have made a good living as a gog in the programming wheel, without school I don't think I could ever have been an independent thinker.
Studying calculus and calculus based physics are the things that in my opinion taught me how to think clearly for the first time. My electronics courses showed me that there was something I was more interested in than software. Theory courses gave me insight into the structure of practical problems and how people have gone about solving them in the past. Only by learning the approaches of yesterday can you "stand on the shoulders of giants" and produce superior solutions.
If you skip college, you sell yourself short. While you may be an excellent programmer without a degree you certainly won't reach your full potential. You won't think as clearly as you could have and your solutions will probably not be as original. Without the insight that painful, in depth study provides (almost impossible to do outside of a classroom) I don't think anyone can be the best they can be.
Besides, what happens when the economy tanks and CS types aren't in as great demand? As shortsighted and unfair as it is, companies will demand a degree. In my field, you need a Master's to be taken seriously and they actually prefer Ph.D's.
If your so hot out of highschool that you can get a good job in IT without going to college then two things apply:
- You can afford it since your base pay will statistically increase enough through a BS; or someone else will pay, be it the government a scholarship fund, or your company.
- you could do it in 1-2 years and get a BS in CS. I know some people who have, I know of one who is wrapping up a 4year program to get a double major (BS) in CS and ECE as well as a Masters in both CS and ECE.
Now, Its unlikely that MIT will let you get a BS in one year even if they'd gladly accept you, but a place like WPI might, and I assume lots of places are somewhat willing to bargain.That's not to say that anyone could actually find WPI an amusing time of your life, but why rush off and work day in day out for the rest of your life and get married young?
-Daniel
Well, if you do go to college, be sure to go to one with lots of girls.
- Tim
In high school, the textbook and teacher are the ultimate authorities. In college, you should be getting close enough to the bleeding edge of knowledge that an instructor doesn't know everything and doesn't pretend to. In a field that is expanding as fast as computing, you won't find a professor who can keep up with it all. Of course, that doesn't excuse really bad professors, just ones that don't know everything. And many colleges don't put enough emphasis on continuing education for their faculty!?
(If you know the material already, test out of the class.)
It does boil down to a personal decision in the end. I can think of lots of reasons why college is a good thing, but then teaching at a university is what I do, so I might be biased.
Did anybody mention the difference between training and education?
RE:
> the worst part about college is paying
> thousands of dollars for classes where you
> occasionally know more about the subject (or at > least the current state of the art) than the
> professor.
The notion that one must spend $100k and spend four years of your life just to prove that you can learn, is simply ridiculous. I understand that is currently how things are, but come on, we should be able to do this in high school (which has become a complete joke in North America).
I agree with everything you've said here, but I'd like to point out that COLLEGE is just as much of a joke in North America as high school was.
The nicest thing about college for me was that I finally wasn't REQUIRED to show up to class. So I'd show up -- never having cracked a book -- for my midterm & finals and pass in the top 5%-10% of my class, rather than what I did in highschool, which is sleep or read science fiction and pass in the top 5%-10% of my class.
The PROBLEM IMHO is that the same people doing the hiring are the ones who STRUGGLED through both high school and college, so they see a benefit in both.
-The Reverend
-The Reverend (I am not a Nazi nor a Troll)
=(.\')=
I did some college, regretting not finishing. Lot of job opportunities that shut you off with out the "piece of paper."
Plus, I missed out on some good parties.
On one hand, the good private college I went to gave me an excellent primer in the humanities. BUT I AM A GODDAMN TECHINICIAN LOADED DOWN WITH A $40,000 COLLEGE LOAN AND I LEARNED NOTHING OF VALUE AT COLLEGE THAT HAS EVER HELPED MY CAREER
I think that people would be better off going into the military. I went in at the ripe old age of 17 and spent 7 years there. Don't get me wrong, it pretty much sucked, but man I was a _complete_ mess before the military. I had no goals, I didn't appreciate learning, and I had _NO_ idea what hard work was. I'm a much better person for having done that, and now I can sit back in my comfy job that I got due to having been there.
The military has a lot of computer related stuff by the way, for those folks trying to break into the business (i.e. Electronic Warfare, etc).
There's really no way to explain the experience to someone who's never been in, but it will definitely change you for the better, and you get paid for it (plus college money ($50k)). Instead of spending tens of thousands of dollars of mommy and daddy's money to drink beer, you can take 3 years or so see the world and get some experience.
I agree with you that maybe you were lucky. I never took classes that would have led to an actual job in college... and maybe that's what helped me. Instead of taking courses in web design, I taught myself. But I did take courses in religious studies, anthropology, and some CS courses which, looking back on, all helped me tons in getting me to where I am today, as well as preparing me for years from now.
You're absolutely right! High education gives you the chance to expand your current knowledge base as well as make yourself a little more well-rounded.
As a Junior level Computer Science student in Arkansas, I have found several outlets for learning as well as work. I am currently working as a software developer (about 20 hours of week). Combining this with school has allowed me to learn a lot. I am gaining a lot more knowledge than I would have by just doing one or the other, but being in school would benifit my work more so than the opposite.
I'm also getting the chance to do some research and study in areas of computing that I would not have received had I just entered the industry and never went for a formal higher education. Although I don't think that my research will make any earth-shattering discoveries, I'm still learning more.
One final issue to mention: By learning more things (languages, hardware issues, software issues, culture, etc), you position yourself in a better place once you do hit the industry. You are paid by what you know and what you can do. Obviously, the more you know and the more you can do, the more you will get paid, the better the job roles, and the more chances you will get to learn at work from the begining.
MunITioN
MunITioN
"A mind is a terrible thing to lose"
If you don't think a Comp Sci degree is going to help you as a programmer, then major in History or English or Physics but still go to College. As you get older, you are going to miss the college experience, which is more than classes and more than the subjects. You will learn how to think and how to be challenged by those who disagree with you.
Founder's Camp
Founder's Camp
News for non-Nerds. Stuff that matters.
college. I kind of felt ripped off. I started in the IT field in high school and liked it. That was why I decided to go to UC (Cincinnati) to get a computer engineering degree. We studied analog circuits, digital systems design, and object oriented programming, but we never did the stuff I liked - systems engineering/integration. We were never taught up to date skills. We coded C and C++ on Sparc LX's (ugh!). I would have graduated without a single class for the stuff geared at I wanted to do. Does that mean I am not a computer engineer? No. I definitely use engineering skills with computers for my job as a consultant. They (UC) sold me an electrical engineer's education with programming classes added to the curriculum. I don't want to be a coder. I found out after two years that the education I wanted was not even in the engineering college, but in the college of applied science. It was called information engineering technology. Classes like Hubs, Routers, and Switches and TCP/IP. By this time, I already had experience and a job offer. Why would I change degree programs and stay in school for another two or three years when I could go out now and make the same money doing what I want? My point here is that colleges need better education for the geek wannabes. At least from the engineering/admin side. I really don't know/care about the development side. My .02, but I suppose everyone's PATH!=/mine.
this is a left handed sig
Where it fails is all the bullshit you have to wade thru to get to the 3 or 4 classes that really are truely usefull :)
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Personally I think college is a both a good experience for the self, as well as having the opportunity to learn things that will become vital to your future career. I think studying the works of Knuth and Dijkstra and other major players in the computer science arena are of utmost importance when it comes to the future development of engineering systems, both software, hardware and other.
I can understand why people do drop out or choose not to go to college considering the demand right now for people knowledgable in the arena, however, in the long run I think that going to college is a better idea than skipping it altogether.
I was just about to say the same thing: HA!
I'd like to hear his opinion in four years.
And if he's implying that he is paying his tuition aid-free out of his own account, well, I can imagine that for him, going to an Ivy League college must be a lot more romantic and a much easier choice over going directly into the workforce, than for many others.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
I've always though what's important about school in general is not to memorize how to code, etc, but rather to learn how to work. Thinks like how to manage time effectively, how to get the job done even if you don't want to, how to effectively use available resources, how to ask for help, etc. These are things that do you a lot more good in the real world than a class on C...
There's a huge difference between an Associate (2 year) degree from a community college and someone with a Master's-level or Doctoral-level education. It has to do with how well these people are trained with respect to formal analysis of problems. At the undergraduate level, the courses are focussed on transferring specific knowledge already accumulated by others to the student, who is then able to use the knowledge to solve problems. At the graduate level, the emphasis is on learning how to formalize new knowledge so that it can be passed on to others.
This difference shows up when you hire a someone to work on a problem. People with an Associate's degree (or no degree) and several years of work experience on average will tend to focus more on solving the immediate problem, rather than looking for the larger patterns that may be present. This translates in poorer application designs and a poorer understanding of what existing libraries can do for you. Note that I said on average -- there are always standouts who will succeed because of their natural inclinations and abilities, with or without a degree. However, I don't think that any of us can make the assumption that we are among those standouts at the tender age of 17 or 18.
Another way to look at this is signalling theory, a branch of economics. People signal to employers about their abilities and talents by choosing the amount of education that they undertake. For a naturally dumb person, school is difficult (i.e. costly) compared to the rewards that she will gain down the road; as a result, she opts for less formal schooling and goes directly into the work force. For a naturally smart person, school is relatively easy (i.e. cheap) compared to the rewards that come from the advanced degree, so she goes to college and grad school, rather than going directly into the work force. Employers recognize this, and are willing to pay more for a college grad than a high school grad with four years' work experience. This scenario holds true even if you make the assumption that the amount of knowledge gained in the four years working is the equivalent of the four years in college, as the degree is a visible signal as to the type of person being hired (dumb or smart). (As an aside, I seriously doubt that four years of work experience in an entry-level job are even close to the equivalent of four years of college -- at that level there's just too much grunt work to really learn much.)
The same dynamic is at work here as in other industries -- don't think that computing is all that special. Really smart people whose minds can analyze a problem in depth are much more valuable to an employer. The easiest way to get those people is to observe the signal from the formal education. It does not matter that a specific individual without a college degree is better-suited to the job that another individual with a college degree -- if on average the people with degrees are more productive than the those without to a significant degree, this is a useful screening tool for an employer.
In fact, in this industry there are some degrees that I feel are negative indicators: such things as an MCSE without a college degree to back it up, or an Associates degree in Computer Science from a community college. These degrees are much too easy to earn and sound good to people whose sole purpose is to "get into the field". To me, they are not what a real professional will emphasize as educational background, and are only useful for resume padding.
Beyond this, another factor that most people coming straight out of high school miss when thinking about college is the importance of alumni and school networks. Of the four jobs that I have had since I got my Bachelor's, two were the direct result of alumni contacts and one was the result of a professor recommending me to a colleague. It is one whole helluva lot easier to find a job this way that randomly sending out resumes to want ads, and the jobs are generally better, too. By not going to college, you miss out on this tremendously valuable support structure.
--Paul
It all comes down to what you know and how far you want to go. Without a degree upper management is pretty much out of reach. Some senior technical positions are out of reach. You basically have to go a lot farther to prove yourself to those around you, but once you do prove yourself, nobody cares if you do or don't have a degree.
There are companies that require degrees for decent jobs. Do some research into where you want to work. Do some research into if you want to work for such a narrow-minded company.
I've tried going to college 4 times. I have about 60 credits. Sure I want a degree eventually, but it's just not worth it at this point.
The worst part about college is paying thousands of dollars for classes where you occasionally know more about the subject (or at least the current state of the art) than the professor.
Make your own decision about college, nobody else really cares.
chris
-- I need more coffee. It's Monday. There is no such thing as enough coffee on a Monday.
More realistic is a lifelong cycle of learning and retraining that better serves radically evolving fields.
As for hackers who skip college - lets face it - very little you do in college is going to make you a better programmer as far as industry is concerned (not many of us spend time reimplementing sorting algorithms) - programming is still an art, and mastery of the arts is gained through practice.
Even though we live in a world where techies are getting high paid jobs right out of high school, chances are you'll inevitably run into a PHB that wants to see your degree. In reality, a degree is a certificate of attendance. PHB's still want to see it. Go for the paper, even if you don't learn anything. I didn't!!
"You'll die up there son, just like I did!" - Abe Simpson
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
Arrogent, cocky techie. If your startup company succeed, you may live comfortablely for the rest of your life. Chance of success is extremely low. You will make more enemy than friends on the way.
No clue type, learn about PC and windows in the basement. You might think you know something, but you probably don't know that you get lower pay than fresh out of college student.
"My destiny is with this company...", think again! Life is full of many choices. If the company failed, it's really hard to get a second job.
You might not need all the knowledge that school teaches you, but they should be the basic knowledge that you have access to them. Most important of all, diploma still works better in giving you stability in life. Think of it as the insurance of finding GOOD jobs.
I totally agree. And without coming off as snobbish, most of the time I can tell without looking at the resume which of the interviewees have attended top-ranking schools vs. community colleges eventhough many of their resume skillsets are identical. And the work they produce is quite different.
A college education isn't just to prepare you for a job (otherwise we'd all be going to technical schools), but is to teach you how to think, expand your mind, and make you a more rounded individual with increase problem-solving experience.
Just like a doctor, the point isn't to get rid of the symptoms, but to holistically educate the individual.
I'm going to university right now. The merits of liberal education and such aside (I'm doing a CompSci degree, but the college I'm studying at has a frighteningly huge breadth requirement), one of the biggest reasons I'm doing this is because of co-op. For those of you unfamiliar, co-op education (at least around here) lets you go out on a 4/8/12/16-month work term in industry and make a competitive (full-time) wage while retaining your fulltime student status (scholarships, student insurance, etc) and earning credit towards the co-op designation on your degree. It allows companies to look for potential employees on a trial basis, and gives students the opportunity to get those 1-2 years of experience that every employer wants. From what I've heard, the hiring rate after graduation of students who've done co-op is significantly higher than those with just a degree. If it were not for being able to go out and do co-op, my interest in staying in university would be far less.
Unfortunately for anyone who got into this industry in the last few years, they might think this booming economy and shortage of qualified workers means they don't need college.
They will soon find the error of their decision, when the economy goes south, as it will, as part of its cycle.
At that time, when employers have their pick of the people from the labor pool, those without college degrees will all find themselves out of work, waiting desperately for the next economic boom, while asking "Do you want fries with that?"
...or pursue a BA somewhere else in the humanities, if you are already confident in your techie nature, and know how to nurture it by yourself.
In the five years I spent in college earning my English and Journalism degrees, I absorbed a tremendous amount and -- more importantly -- a very wide range of information and experiences that I really don't think I'd have been able to duplicate were I in the job market that whole time. I entered the Real World with a mind exposed to years of reading literature from various intersections of the world and its timeline which I'd have never investigated on my own, vastly improved my ability to express myself by taking composition classes with lovably draconian English professors, and earned invaluable production and management skills from my years as an editor at the university's student-run newspaper.
I consider all these to have a more-than-tangential impact on any work I might do in the future, which is way they appeared on my resume two years after I graduated, when, after a friend advised me to learn Perl, I rather easily got my first full-time programming job. Things have been going along very well for me since then.
The time gap came becuase I orignally had my eye on a career in the publishing industry; had I sought out a hacking job from the get-go, I've little doubt I'd have been able to find one as soon as I graduated.
It also doesn't hurt that I can write cover letters that usually crush any competition for jobs that interest might me. Heh.
J
MacOS Open Source
jmac
I wasted two years of my life in college. I was spoonfed outdated information about computers that served no real purpose other than to get class credits. I was wasting time being spoonfed outdated material along with the usual liberal arts bullshit that comprises elective classes. I started getting reall sick of it when I realized how much more I was learning hanging out with my geek friends (Thanks to Mike, Brad, and James!) and reading /..
The final straw was when I realized that to graduate I would need to take out student loans to pay for my classes, which still included things like Phys Ed., Orientation, and Biology - crap classes that are remedial of things I didn't like in high school. I just couldn't see getting myself in debt for thousands of dollars when I could just drop out, work tech support jobs to learn the ropes, and be making over $50,000 (US) a year before I turn 22.
Beats the hell out of wasting in college. I might make a little less than college grads starting out, but I can make up for it by collecting certifications for enterprise level UNIX operating systems and the software that runs on them. And by the time my friends get out of college in 3 years (Everybody does it in 5 years now...) I'll be zipping from work to the bars at night in my new Porsche, and going home to my nice big house.
College is for chumps.
Wow. You think that college should be about teaching you Visual Basic?
Someone with a good CS education (note that I said a good CS education, which may not correspond to what is available in your school) can learn the computer language du jour quickly and independently. Someone who goes out of high school to a "Visual Basic in a month" course is useless as soon as VB loses favor.
Unfortunately too many universities these days are confused about this and providing their students nothing but a trade-school exposure to what's currently trendy.
Now that's not to say that it might not be a good idea for some folks to delay college for a while and try working in "the real world" first. Students (especially grad students) who've had more non-academic experience, I think, get more out of their university education because they are more focused.
(Apologies to Frater 219, for some reason I could not find a link to the individual post.)
What follows is a post that discussed this very issue over a year ago. I took it to heart and have enjoyed college ever since. It has opened my eyes up to a whole new world, one I would have never seen if I'd kept my nose buried in a keyboard. People should not go to college just to help them start a career. They should go to college to learn about life.
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Geeks, go to college. (Score:5)
by Frater 219 on Monday April 12, @01:05PM EDT
(User Info) http://
Don't go to college to learn to be a better geek. Academic computer science won't turn you into a system administrator, Web designer, or Perl hacker. You won't learn how to optimize a kernel configuration, recover files from a crashed disk, build a fast database, or tell your boss nicely that his ideas about information technology are stupid or violate the laws of physics. You may learn a lot of good theory -- but you could pick that up elsewhere, too.
Go to college to learn about culture, or history, or philosophy, or literature. Go to college to sit up late nights screaming at your best friends about what an idiot Rene Descartes was. Go to college to watch your best friends do the Rocky Horror Picture Show. Go to college to find out what the hell this postmodernism thing is that Larry Wall's always on about. Go to college to refute postmodernism, and to be called postmodern for doing it. Go to college to meet people who will be impressed with your intelligence instead of thinking of it as threatening.
Don't go to an easy college, and don't go to a place that lets you get by doing nothing but technical stuff. Go to a place that makes you do a lot of heavy reading and writing. Take tough courses. Learn to write well; not only will it help when your boss asks you to document your project, but it'll also help you sound better on Slashdot and USENET. Don't scorn "well-roundedness" or "communications skills"; the stars of geek culture are no bunch of illiterates.
Study music. Music, as Pythagoras demonstrated, is a form of mathematics, and musicians, like hackers, keep pounding on their work in search of the Right Thing. Study psychology and sociology. They represent our attempts to figure out how the systems called the human mind and human society work, so that we can make them work better.
Read Nietzsche. Refute your parents' religion. Then refute your refutation.
Get into politics. Which politics don't really matter -- be a socialist, or a libertarian, or even a Republican if you have to. Go to activist events. Take politics courses. Insist on bringing up free software in the middle of your classes. Derive the Debian Free Software Guidelines from the works of John Locke.
Go not unto/. for advice, for you will be told both yea and nay (but have nothing to do with the question)
A college education is a foundation for your future learning. I spent 5 years in college, and got a 2-year Associates in Mathematics (simply by taking all the engineering math courses) and a B.S. in Computer Engineering. Engineering (of any discipline) is quite different from a standard Comp. Sci. degree. You learn *why* things work, and how to perform some real-world problem solving.
Now, granted, a lot of the Comp. Sci classes I took have little or no bearing on my previous programming jobs or my current sysadmin job. But they certainly helped to deal with the other Electical and Mechanical Engineers I work with every day.
Also, courses I took like Psychology and Technical Writing have had a great influence on the way I perform my job. And the social aspects of college life cannot be overemphasized. It's where most people I know "grew up".
If you're in IT for the bucks, then don't bother with a degree. When the job market swings the other way (and it will), having a degree will make a difference. And if you are wanting to improve yourself, there is no better way.
I think it all depends on what kind of person you are.
I dropped out of high school, and went into computers. But don't get me wrong, I didn't drop out of high school for computers. Why I dropped out is another story.
I went to work for a small computer shop at 17. 9 months later, I was hired by a nation-wide computer training company as a contract Technical Writer. After my 2 month contract, I left, got my GED, and a few certs.
I then got a job as a Sys Admin at a small (250 people) and growing billing software company. I am now a senior systems administrator, making good money, learning alot, and teaching people 10-30 years older then me everything I know.
My point is, it all depends who you are, and what oppertunities come your way. I didn't want to drop out of high school, but I had to. I don't regret it, but I would have liked to go to college. But for me, it was the right thing. I learned more in the 3+ years I've been doing this then I would have learned in 4 years of college. I'm also further ahead in my field.
I think I made it because I'm good at this. I think of myself as a natural. Most people that go to college for computers, didn't know enough about computers to get a job anywhere anyway. The first place I worked, they hired me because college grads didn't know what a hard drive was when they where showed one. I knew what it was, could set SCSI jumpers, and build a whole system in about a half hour.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not doing to bad.
-Tripp
Ok, so I think we have established that there are not many schools that will train you to become a good at IT. Mine didn't, the jobs I've had did.
I think that we can also argue that school is not a prerequisite for learning how to become good at IT. What ever criteria are needed to do so can be learned elsewhere given motivation.
However, even given the hypothetical situation where I could have gotten the same jobs without the degree and without the connections I got from school, given the option, I would have gone to school anyway. Nowhere else will I have the opportunity to have tackled so many strictly academic problems as simply mind exercises. Nowhere else will I have the opportunity to expore so many fields outside of CS.
College might not make you an IT guru, but then, that's not the point of college is it?
I left university after 3 yrs because they were only interested in teaching me to become a programmer and after reading The Cockoo's Egg, I knew I wanted to be a sysadmin. So I packed my bags, moved to the high arctic, and wired a large chunk of Canada, and use that for my portfolio.
It can be done, I'm far enough along now after 5 yrs of experience that noone cares what my education looks like at this point, they're much mroe interested in what I've done in jobs up to here. My education is considered irrelivent by those who do ask about it anyways because it's all programming courses.
Having said that, there is something to be said about a good certification like CCNA/CCIE for cisco stuff. I have respect for it as an IT hiring manager.
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Remove the rocks from my head to send email
On the whole, I find that I prefer Slashdot posts to twitter ones because I don't get limited to 140 chars before
As a student who is just beginning his Freshman year in CS at Cornell,
plus
Unlike work in an IT department, which we leave you drained and too tired to really do meaningful independent work,
equals
How in the hell do you presume to know what an IT job feels like? You are a freshman in college! I am 24 years old and I've been working in IT since I was 17. Not only did I skip college (actually I have some credits in English, Philosophy, and Engineering graphics, but nothing CS or CIS related) but I dropped out of high school. So far, I consider it to be the best decision I have ever made. I'm currently working as a data security consultant, but I have also worked in several IT departments, been a sysadmin, and worked as an AutoCAD tech/programmer. I have been in environments as small as 80 users and one engineer (me) up to 4-5000 users, 5 support techs (of which I was one), a networking department and so on. In all cases I have been able to easily go home and study. I have been able to teach myself Java, C, C++, perl, VB and SQL using only free time in the evenings. I have also been able to bring every one of these skills into my everyday work, and thus improve my level of service to the client. I'm sure you're wondering about that number of jobs in 7 years, I have spent most of my time working as a consultant (both independant and through an agency).
My point is simply that I have met VERY smart people (people with patents on programming algorythms who also speak 4 dissimilar languages), I have learned many interesting things (note above languages), and put a leg WAY up on my future career (more on this in a second), all without going to college and therefore without owing a single cent in student loans.
One last thing I want to bring up: College does NOT teach you how to work, only experience can do that. I will give you an example. A couple of years ago I contracted with a company to provide Novell system admin work plus some network conversion help (token ring to ethernet). I was also going to provide a limited amount of help desk support. For the first couple of weeks I was doing only help desk, as it helped me aclimate myself to the environment. On the same day I started, another guy started with me. He had just graduated with an EE from the University of Missouri at Rolla. This is one of the more respected engineering schools in the area (they require a 3+ GPA for admission) and he had graduated with a 3.8. Unfortunately, he had absolutely no idea how to complete a task. At one point, about a week after we started, he even admitted that he was used to having a defined problem sat down in front of him and that he was struggling with the work because he didn't know how to direct himself.
I hope I have made my point.
Politics, Culture, Food?
...like if you was to be a foo'ball player, or a basketball star.
College teaches you lots of great things, like how to pick an agent and how to mask steroid use, or what to do if the coeds start crying "rape".
And talk about diversity training! For those of you who think that white men can't dance, just watch how the coach gets his star running back off of that silly possession charge!
if they don't get a college education, and just stick to computer related stuff.
if they did go to college, they might meet other people, develope critical thinking skills, become independent minded and develope all those other dangerous skills that make them question authority, and make them hard to manage.
They might even become commies.
Here techie, here's another 5k, bringing you up to 45k, will you do another 70 hour week?
The question of weather to go to college is generally easy for most techies anyway - that answer is "yes". The difficult question for most is weather to STAY in college.
I've been in college for three years. I am fully qualified for a very good developer position right now. I know this because I have that job this semester. My delima is I think the more common one. I could keep working and just go back to school whenever I need to. I'll be making plenty of money and be the envy of all my friends who are stuck in class all day trying to deal with such horror profs. as "Killer Cain".
Now its time for the drawbacks. I will probably never go back because saving money to do so is easier said than done. Next, any manager worth his salt will chose a college grad over some joe who knows stuff when faced with two people of the same skill level The resons have been discussed above. This leads to the biggest reason to finish college while you're there: without a degree, the schmucks in recruiting departments of companies will not take you seriously. If you want a good job without a degree you will HAVE to know someone on the inside. If you have a degree you don't always have to know someone, but it helps. And since college is the best preliminary networking resource there is, you probably WILL know someone on the inside anyway. These things added up will give a mediocre tech with a degree a huge edge over a really good tech with no degree.
However this only applies to people just entering the workforce. Once you get a few years worth of experience (and more importantly achievements) under your belt and on your resume things tend to even out over time.
The moral of the story is if you know people NOW in positions where they can get you the job you want/deserve, AND they are willing to do so, go for it. It'll be all good. You will get the resume fodder and hopefully the contacts that will help you later on. But for most people this isn't an option.
The Statue of Liberty is America's lawn jockey.
I'm just gonna play devil's advocate here for a minute. Everyone here is saying that science and tech is nothing without some humanities courses such as lit, history etc... I think these "artsy fartsy" people are nothing without tech/science courses. These people can't understand scientific theories or deal with abstract ideas. Its easier for a techie to learn history (They might find it boring), than a historian to learn coding and theoretical physics.
This pattern of CS-savvy kids preferring IT jobs to college is not unique to the US; it is also being seen in Europe. I can understand the motivation of the kids--it's similar to basketball players choosing the pros over a degree.
But it's probably not the best decision in the long-term. Most academic CS programs deliberately avoid covering topics that are likely to become obsolete in 5 years. Instead, they try to provide a career foundation, emphasizing material that is likely to be important on multiple projects. At the same time, companies attempting to fill upper-tier software engineering jobs (at whatever level) tend to have a search image that includes both experience in the workplace and success in academic CS coursework. So not getting the academic background is likely to lead to a dead-end.
academia is where a lot of GPL software comes from! What would we freeloaders do w/o college students sharing their homework with us??
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
$100k? Yeah, that's just plain silly. I graduated from college in 1994. The total cost of my education came in just a shade under $12k. I went to a college that's held in fairly high regard too (Trenton State College, Trenton, NJ - was regularly in the top 10 in the 80s and 90s from US News). I worked hard in high school, and was rewarded with a full scholarship that covered the full cost of my tuition. I think I'm a pretty smart guy, but by that same token, there are others out there that are probably smarter than me.
Does the name on your degree get you anything? Nope. One of my friends is dealing with a customer that has a couple of Harvard MBAs running it, and boy do they ever like to wave those little slips of paper in your face... You know something? These are supposed to be good businessmen. These clowns can't distinguish their anuses from holes in the ground. Was their $100k degree worth $88k more than my $12k degree? Nope, in fact, it seems to in the real-world be worth LESS!
Bottom line? Go to college. It may not teach you what you need to do your everyday job, I'm living proof of that (I've got a Math/Ed degree, and I'm in the data security field). However, it DOES teach you valuable skills that you WILL use in real life. Skills like real, adult inter-personal relationships, real problem solving, and will certainly help you to more cohesively and more convincingly relate your thoughts to others. Take an 18 year old wiz-kid over a 22 year old who's just out of college? No chance. The 22 year old has already demonstrated the ability to carry something to completion (the coursework required to get his/her degree).
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The unsig!
You don't need college to do a lot of things. But what it can help with is your ability to change the focus and direction of your career. In college you can learn a variety of things. Usually, you don't know what is going to be beneficial tomorrow, next year, or 20 years from now. It also helps you with the discipline to learn the really hard stuff. Often, you will be able to make connections between the skills and knowledge you have-- which leads to innovation.
It is kinda like the difference between a "professional" and a skilled tradesman. Usually the professional has a broader knowledge base and the ability to combine skills from a diverse background to solve the problem. The tradesman knows a few skills of the trade *really well* It is usually harder for the skilled tradesman to adapt to new situations.
I work as an electrical engineer. I can do a lot of things, code, design circuits, layout printed circuit boards, and so on. What usually makes engineers (usually, but not always, college educated) different from technicians (usually, but not always, non-college educated) is the ability to use all of these skills at the same time. I have worked with technicians that are much better at one or two of those individual pieces (layout, design, coding), but lack the skills and background to tie them all together. An engineering education, in particular, gave me skills to evaluate alternative solutions to the problems that come up: Should I try an analog solution? A discrete digital solution? A microcontroller? A DSP? I have enough background so that I can figure out which one may work the best.
Anyone who thinks that they are going to be doing the same thing for the rest of their career is taking an awfully narrow view of the future. There is no certainty that any career will last forever, despite what the Unions try. Someday, it may just be easier and cheaper to send all those Java programming jobs overseas. By that time, we may have Programmers Unions lobbying to keep the current languages, though they may be obsolete, their rank-and-file know them really well, and don't have the urge to learn something else.
Take a lesson from the professional athletes: You may be the best and fastest right now. You can command huge a huge salary right now. But the skills that brought you that salary could fade, or be eclipsed by some other bright young chap that has newer, better skills. You may not be on the top of the heap forever, so plan ahead.
Perhaps those considering it should try college and then decide. I am in college right now, and get paid damn well for a non-graduate/student. I love it. I wouldn't leave right now if someone offered me $100,000 a year. It's not worth it. Learn to enjoy college life because it only comes once. Then you're too old to do anything else!
College is about enjoying getting having as much fun as possible...and studying sometimes (till 5AM).
Yeah...I have yet to apply most of what I learned in the real world, but you know...there is plenty to learn in college...Plus...if this market does cool down, where are you going to get a job without that college degree.
Think about this!
and I leave with this quote
"Only when the last tree is dead, the last field paved, the last river dammed will we realize that we can't eat money!"
"Time is long and life is short, so begin to live while you still can." -EV
Reality check. Experience counts for more than education. So when the market bubble bursts, the ones with 5 years experience will be preferred ofer the fresh college grad... even if the former did not go to college.
I'm currently in the "Information Management and Technology" program at Syracuse University. While they do skimp on some of the technical skills (it seems like they want to stay vendor neutral or something), you learn a lot of usefull knowledge about the business side of IT as well as issues about new technologies etc. However, as the old saying goes, "college is not for everyone." You can be a perfectly good NT administrator by just getting your MCSE.
....like how to survive on nothing but cashew halves, Chinese takeout and Dew. And how to code until 3 AM and still wake up bt 8:00 the next morning....
-Ross
See? A degree IS useful.
"These are the days that must happen to you." -Walt Whitman
I found college fun, and it was a good way for me to hook up with some job experience in computers. But other than that, it was a waste of money. I didn't graduate because I got hired before I graduated and the company that hired me didn't care. Most IT places are looking for people with experience and brains anyway. Just because you have a college degree or any other kind of certification doesn't mean you know jack shit.
My brother just took one of those 6 month crash course Oracle/VB/Powerbuilder thing that says they have a 99% placement rate. He doesn't have any real job experience in IT, and no one will hire him because of that. Crash course certs are usually useless anyway, but it does go to show that most place want experience above anything else.
Need Free Juniper/NetScreen Support? JuniperForum
A lot of what is being taught in Academia (tm) regarding technology is simply not relevant to what is going on today; the equipment is outdated, the professors are ill-prepared, the students (themselves) are clueless.
Yet, is it better to drop out and try to make money? I would say no.
On the other hand, the mental discipline of having to suffer through four years of learning is beneficial. For example, figuring out how to "work the system" in the microcosm of a University is in many ways priceless. Such small instances give you an understanding of the dynamics of people and organizations.
Employers (often college grads., themselves) see it as a necessary "proving ground". They don't care about your grades (I have yet to look/care about someone's grades), but whether they actually made it through.
In three or fours years, with an abundance of people poised to graduate and glut the market with technology-oriented college degrees, it is probably worth your while that you have *something* (other than short-term earnings) for the long-term.
Lucas
--
Spindletop Blackbird, the GNU/Linux Cube.
How is this a troll? Because it says "First Post"?
Typical "First Post"'s are not trolls. They are offtopic and (possibly) redundant, but they are NOT trolls.
This post is not even a typical "First Post." It's on topic. The "First Post" is just an add-on. (Ha-Ha--ya know?). The assertion with the payment ("The market won't be able to continue paying us as much, once all the newbie college grads get out.") could be considered a troll, but that is a stretch. And (in case the moderator is a conspiracy theorist) not everybody with a medialone.net email is Signal 11.
Moderators, please mod this poor poster at least back up to a 1. He doesn't deserve to lose karma for this post. Mod me down if you must, but mod the parent post up.
(Gosh, where did all that aggression come from?)
If you can read this, then I forgot to check "Post Anonymously".
I do sometimes run in to barriers of "bachelors required" but not often. I now plan on going back and getting my degree, but I wouldn't change what I did in the past.
It's the 21st Century Do you know what your government is doing
I prefer to hire engineers who never attended college or left early. I think college warps you. Too much theory. Every engineer I know with a BS or worse MS are so into the latest thing without thought to its real world applications. I've had people coming in to interview wondering why anyone want's to proram with C/C++ anymore since Java is sooo much better.
Computer technology is a new and different beast than the courses that colleges have taught in the past. When I went to college (U of Wash, 85-90), I studied chemical and materials engineering, something that has fundamentals that don't change yearly, and the courses I took gave me a good level of knowledge that made my first job a lot easier than it would otherwise have been .
Then I switched careers. The only computer course I took was FORTRAN, and I can't say as that's been as useful as the Perl, Java, and Web technologies that I've taugh myself since, on my own time, sans college courses. None of those things really existed prior to my graduation anyway*. And while there are certainly fundamentals in programming and other computer related fields that are relatively unchanged, the technology can be quite different in the 4 or so years it takes to get any college degree. So, its tough to say that 4 years of college vs. 4 years of direct work experience make one a better programmer or more marketable.
Even with that in mind, I wouldn't call my education, let alone any college degree a waste of time (though maybe I'd take some different courses). The math classes and english/writing/tech writing courses are still all invaluable in the skills they gave me. And, though less tangable, I think I'm better at my job because I had to take history courses, language courses, physics courses, and so on. One of my favorite quotes is "a mind that is stretched to a new idea never returns to its original dimension". That's a perfect argument for going to college, as far as I'm concerned. (Jeeze, am I starting to sound like an elitist snob here or what...?)
And the experience of going to college, the good and the bad, is something I wouldn't trade for the world. Or even the extra few $ I might have earned by working instead.
___________________
*Yah, I know Larry Wall created Perl in the mid 80's, but Perl 4 wasn't out until the early 90's, which is the version I first learned.
Here we go again!
Let's think about this for a moment. Sure the economy is super great right now, any brainless high school geek can get a job, even if he only knows how to set up a network of Windows boxen. But what happenes when times get tough (yea, this isn't going to last forever)? That's right, you no-college going kids will get the can every time.
Not to mention that there is a lot of growing up to do in college. I'd hate to work with a bunch of people who cry when they don't get their way.
Now I'm not trying to be mean here, I believe in that rare jewel that is able to do all the things I can do and more without a lick of formal education, but let's face it... They are few and far between.
-capt.
.... espescially since I'm wasting 35k/year to go to school, I agree with the parent post...someone mod this back up to at 1.
Mooniacs for iOS and Android
the only barriers to getting jobs have been places like the Gov't and such. places I wouldn't want to work at anyway!
after several years of experience in the field, I've never found that my lack-of-paper stopped my progress. I see Masters and Doctorates all the time, but I doubt they make that much more than me, and I don't see them as being any more viable in the workplace - when it comes to code writing and usual software engineering type jobs.
I'm not in research - so maybe in that general field an actual degree might be useful. but for product engineering (mostly what software engineers end up doing anyways) I think its wasted time and money to seek higher degrees.
btw, not having an actual degree is sort of a built-in "filter" for non-desirable companies. if they give me a fuss about not finishing college, I'll take that as a hint that I'd probably not be happy there anyway. I kinda like that..
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"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
I found that I learned more outside of classes while in college than I ever learned while working. College gives you a lot of freedom that you won't have once you start working. I also started college not knowing how to program and switched majors after I found out how easy programming was for me. It also depends on how much you know coming out of highschool. If I had spent the same amount of time with computers in high school as I did in college there's a good chance I could have just skipped college.
I have met many a programmer coming out of Harvey Mudd (and MIT or State U.) class of ~1990 who couldn't find a job in their field. Us younger techies don't appreciate what anyone over 28 already does, the economy has peaks and valleys. We are in a peak and no one can say for sure when the next valley will come. Take the opportunities while they are still around to be had.
I'm halfway through the computer science program at Oregon State. I withdrew to work for a while, possibly to go back later. Why? Because college programming classes weren't teaching me anything.
It's like learning to read. You either can't read, you can read but have to spell out the words, or you can speedread silently and just need to look up the words you don't know. Programming is the same way. You either can't program, you can program just barely but always have to look up everything, or you are a master programmer at heart who has to look up new functions, etc, but otherwise knows what they're doing. I'm in that last section. I have the proper state of mind to program; I just need to look up stuff now and then. But I'll be damned if I want to go to college for two more years to get a piece of paper so I can prove it.
---- "A programmer is a person who solves a problem you didn't know you had in a way you don't understand."
Okay, I have a lot to say about this, actually, so here comes a rant.
I am actually quite a good example of this. When I was 12 I started playing around with an old 286 and by 13 I put an ad in the paper to teach computers. I did that for something like six years, and along the way, dropped out of highschool at 15. Socially, this didn't affect me much because all of my social life was through a local BBS anyway (Ah, the days of local BBSs... [sigh]).
I eventually got very bored with compters and went travelling for a while, but recently, I've decided that I missed the geek world. I missed forums like this, I missed hacking into my code, hell, I just missed the whole part of my life. So with a little help from a good friend, I returned to the fold of geekdom, and here I am.
But anyway, I was going to talk about college... I once worked for a guy who, when I told him I wasn't going to college, said "You gotta go to college! If nothing else it's a place to go and get laid for four years!" And I think this sums up what is most important about college today. It's not the classes you take (although granted, they are very important), but it is the social aspects. I've seen quite a few dorks (here in Boston, recently), for whom college is doing them much good. They're not learning much from their classes, but living here, semi-on-their-own, drinking, smoking, meeting girls (or boys, but I've seen far fewer female or homosexual male geeks than the plain ol' male variety, but that's a completely different discussion)!
However, I do think the academic subjects we study at college are important. Right now, I am working in computers (network admin), and I find I have a great desire to go to classes, so I am. Unofficially, of course, but that doesn't matter. I don't value a degree very highly. I think the computer industry is different from almost all others that have come before it in that employers don't value a degree very highly. I'm sure many people will disagree with this, but in general, here in the tech world, if you've got the skills, that's what counts, IMHO.
Just my two cents...
Joshua
A long-standing professor once shared his opinion with me that a college degree didn't mean that you were trained in a certain profession or pursuit, but that you were trainable.
Not sure if I 100% agree with him, but when I look to hire someone, I really can see the difference between somebody who pursued advanced education and someone who didn't. That's not the only criteria of course, but college courses add a good dose of structured learning that high school just doesn't do.
From an AI point of view, it's like comparing a procedural solution to a neural net: the procedural solution has a better chance of reflection, of telling you HOW they got to a certain conclusion.
[
A social life is highly overrated. Well that's not true, it's just your concept of a social life that is highly overrated
Any primative society has such things as: bartering, sharing, negotation, a sense of community, and other things. I say that IRC and provide most of these things, and the rest of the net can make up the difference.
For example with IRC. One can DCC some good pr0n to someone on IRC and make a friend. One can also simply idle in a channel for days on it, which gives one a very strong sense of community. You live and sleep in a channel, it's bound to be thought of as your home by others. There is also a barter economy in the #warez channels, trade on 0-day for another 0-day. You setup preferred people to trade with. This is also signs of a simple civiliazation
Now if techies did not socialize, how would a society have formed online? To me it looks like we built a world all on our own. (of course it's full of lamers and trolls, so I'm not spouting it as some kind of utopia:)
--OrangeTide
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
I personally attempted school and failed because of a single set of courses, Calc if you must know. I can handle any computer course you throw at me, literally, but I chose to drop out when it became apparent that as long as that course was in my way I'd never complete the degree anyway. While it may not be a good idea to skip the college route, and I certainly expect there to be repercussions later, right now my goal is just to accomplish, learn and progress as far as I can before that dreaded day comes.
I had a lot of fun in college and I learned a lot about systems integration and software design. I understand the WANT to earn money right away, but we all NEED to learn in order to stay in the business. I guess that if you get that education from either work or school, you are better off in the long run. Remember, this economic and technological boom won't last forever. Better prepare now for the need to find a new job. School is always a good place to start.
Blarf.
College is great. Sure it won't teach you to become a better programmer, but it'll teach you to become a better person. You'll learn about interacting with people you don't like (e.g. Frat boys who later become your bosses) and you have experiences that you'll never get to enjoy once you're out of college.
Most of the managers I've worked for, the good ones at any rate, preferred to hire software engineers who had degrees in subjects other than Computer Science, because they knew that they would bring a richer mix of experience and creativity to their work.
Some schools (I'm partial to harvey mudd college, great school, well rounded education) go out of their way to ensure that a broad education even in specialized majors. For instance, CS majors at my school have to take almost as many humanities (history, govt, art, etc) classes as technical classes, which ensures not only an outstanding technical background, but humanitarian insight as to what your technical skills might produce. This humanities background tends to lessen the potential for immoral business practices.
Mooniacs for iOS and Android
There are good sides to college though:
- Some degrees do actually train you to do something, and provide reasonable certification that you can do it. (ie. engineering, and accounting)
- As a prescreen for the right kinds of students for higher learning(PhD's, MD's,
..etc.)
- If you have good scholarships, or just have the money to do it, it can be quite enjoyable to learn just for learning's sake.
- A high school student may have no clue what they are going to do for a living, and college is a good place to find out.
- Never again will you have as good a place to meet your potential spouse.
- College is fun.
My points against it would be that in the tech field I could have had 4 more years experience, and spent $80k less by the time I turned 22. But that doesn't include the full opportunity cost of not working those 4 years. I spent $80k in 4 years, when I could have easily made another $100k after taxes, bringing the total to $180k. So I could have had $180k stashed away by age 22 compared to what I ended up with. I will grant you that money isn't everything, but I also believe that those people that say money isn't important are usually talking about other people's money.To take an economist view of the situation, I would say that you need to decide what amount of money it would take to stop you from going to college. If someone offeres that to you, in a job that you can live with, go for it.
Personally if I have to decide between spending $20k this next year, or making $50k, I'm going with the $50k. I'll head back to school later if I'm tired of work.
t
now, 5 years later, I make well into 6 figures. It's just not worth it to, in essense, throw your career away for a piece of paper that, more or less, says "this person paid tuition for a whole 4/5/6 years!"
I think a lot of this is because college courses are, unfortunately, aimed at the lowest-common-denominator (with the exception, of course, of places like MIT and Berkeley). Since college has been "opened up to the masses", standards have unarguably fallen drastically. It's no longer a place of "higher learning" but rather a place to "leech off of the parents while getting shit-faced drunk nightly" for all too many people. With the schools having to cater to these sorts of people (and they do have to cater to them to pull in the tuition needed to run the place), those who truly want to learn suffer.
A few O'Reilly books can teach you more for less, as far as I'm concerned. And, as an added bonus, you can learn that way naked.
Send your friends messages of love at fuck-you.org
I've put a lot of thought into this. I myself am a dropout of college -- I went 5 quarters (at a quarter-based 4-yr school). I did more poorly as the time progressed, because I stopped attending. (One quarter I took astronomy, and only showed on the first day, the midterm, and the final -- did pretty well, too.) I've done very well since then. I'm very, very glad that I quit school when I did, and that things worked out how they have. In that sense, my own experience would be a remarkable endorsement towards this sort of trend. However, caveats abound:
:P
First, a large number of web jobs are merely technician positions. Most sysadmin, IT, network security, network engineer jobs are merely operating equipment. You plug in disks, you run backups, you create user accounts, you add rules to a firewall, you add static routes here and there, etc. They are jobs which can be performed by anyone slightly-above-average. Because this is true, you would economically expect people to shift into these jobs from lower paying jobs if they were capable, and this is happening. Right now, it isn't necessarily happening faster than these jobs are created. Eventually, supply of these worked will overtake demand, and the pay of these positions will equalize. I know a woman working as a sports therapist in the late 80s/early 90s who made over $100k a year. Interestingly, the most popular career choice of the graduating class before mine (I was '93), was that field. Today, she makes just over $30k/yr. System administration is not worth (imho) $100k+ in todays dollars. The Silicon Valley is an exception to everything, of course, and that may stay near that forever because of demand/cost of living, but in lifestyle terms, you're making the same/less. What this all comes down to is: fundamentally, people will seek out the best pay and the most challenging work. This is not an axiom, but it is a measurable trend. Those jobs which prove most difficult (historical examples being doctor and lawyer) will pay the best. Exceptions include non-commercial work, such as research/professorships.
Second, if you want to work on things which will be truly "new" in the future, a lot of them require some background. I know a ton of sysadmins, network engineers, security ppl, etc, who never schooled. But I know fewer software engineers, and even fewer hardware engineers -- I interact the hardware engineers less, but I still view this as being because these things respectively require more and more education. You can still be self-taught, but you don't see a lot of demand for, "How to lower the voltage on your integrated circuit" type mini-faqs. I think there will be a huge demand for the forseeable future for good software and hardware engineers. I don't expect them to lose the demand like system administration will. You don't see people offering the equivalent of of an MCSE in ASIC design. Because it takes more background. On the high levels, it requires a very good understanding of physics (for hardware design). On the software side, you have to be well versed in the theory side of things. Understanding how a computer executes instructions, how memory operates, etc, is far beyond 80%+ of all sysadmins and the like that I've run into.
So, concluding, if you can build the more demanded more fundamental skill sets/knowledge base without school, you're fine without it. If you don't have that knowledge, and are opting for one of the less-mentally-taxing jobs which are more administration/operation oriented rather than being true engineering, expect to see salaries eventually level off and decline.
Moreover, speaking from personal experience -- if you found that picking up sysadmin/network admin/security/etc skills was easy for you, you're probably not going to enjoy your job because it won't challenge you. It may also demand an enormous amount of time from you, leaving you less able to spend other time upgrading your knowledge, and you may feel like you've squandered your abilities.
There are exceptions -- there always will be. There are those so smart that this just doesn't apply -- they have a physics background by the time the choose a college that's strong enough fo r the work, or were answering 50 point questions in Art of Computer Programming when they were in Jr. High -- that's not the norm. So my message is a warning that inflated salaries for in-demand professions will draw people to equalize.
On another note -- I read another article not a year ago that stated that the number of people selecting computer-related majors entering college was actually _declining_. I have a feeling that this is largely the result of this skip-college-go-to-work effect, but there clearly isn't some huge college crop working its way inexorably towards us ready to flood the market with qualified applicants.
On a closing note, it depends on how good you are. For every person who actually understands what the machines are doing in that sort of work, there are 10 (at least) who can go through the motions. They are the network engineers who don't understand a TCP handshake, and the sysadmins who don't know how a buffer overflow works.
Anyhow, either way, good luck to those that take the plunge, I just wanted to offer a word of caution...and a few pages explaining it
I spent years regretting my BSc in Com Sci until I started to apply some of the really deep concepts to problems I was facing in the real world. Much better coders than I were left in the dust because no matter how much you think you've learnt through experience, most people are still missing a set of fundamental knowledge. From a purely practical POV I'd skip colledge now -- but go to night school to make sure I'd cover everything.
Turnover is vanity; Profit is sanity; cash is reality
Sure, it's easy to get a job now. Some of the best engineers I ever worked with didn't have degrees. Everything is great when jobs are easy to get. But times change. When engineers are being laid off, they know they are stuck in their jobs. They can't go anywhere else. They know no other company would even look at their resumes without the paper degree. You can see the gloom and despair in their eyes when the next round of layoffs come, knowing the future is dark and bleak if they lose their jobs. If you want to retire in 5 years, don't go to college. If you plan on working the next 40 (ugh), get the degree NOW.
Skip college? Are they crazy? College is the best opportunity most geeks will ever have to get laid. Putting a job before that is clearly a demonstration of mixed up priorities. Oh these modern times...
"Techies" should be hitting college for sure. Not because they need to learn technical skills, or because they need to have a theoretical background, or becuase they need to learn a work ethic. They should go to college to develop a social life! That's right people, go to college, move in to residence and meet some humans.
Multiplayer Strategy
I have just a few college hours but the math, stats, econ concepts, bits of history would be tough to get a handle on with just web browsing. I've wondered if an analysis of algorithms class might be handy. Go if you can, go part time and have the company pay for it if you have the discipline. But if unless you're on a highly defined track like pre-med use it to cram in all the stuff you will never have time to get around to later.
What about the stuff your learn in post-secondary that does NOT relate directly to your 'career', but round out your skills and ability to adapt to different situations (problem solve) and shift your focus if you burn out in your primary focus?
How many people stick to one 'career' anymore?
air and light and time and space
From my personal experience, people who dropped out of university tend to be independent thinkers and typically need to learn things on their own terms. IMHO their success "on the outside" can be attributed to their self-sufficency, and a strong (hopefully well-founded) confidence in their abilities....traits that probably granted them the courage to drop out in the first place.
Consequently, I'm inclined to believe that anyone who decides to drop out of college/university based on the responses in this forum probably shouldn't.
hf
This space for rent.
No sig.
I am in the middle of that very decision right now. I know of many people who have well paying, exciting, and interesting jobs that do not have a degree. At the same time, I don't have those opportunities immediately available to me. I was having a hard time finding a lot of what I was doing in school useful (i'm a junior in my computer science program) -- and in fact the job that I have right now I got purely out of the Linux stuff I have learned on my own in the last year or so.
So, it has been hard for me to decide to keep with it. But since I didn't have an overwhelming opportunity that would draw me away from school completely, I'm now working part time and going to school part time. And, until I find something different, I'll slowly work on my degree. But, in the end, I may not even need it!
i was working for dell at 19, and at 21 i'm working for an international software company, with great stock options, benefits, and a good beginning salary of 42k a year.
college can't train as well as the real world does, every day i'm here.
However, if what you want is a well-rounded, universal education (including some PE), go to a university.
Myself, I'm getting my degree in something totally unrelated to computers, but I am gathering work experience in the tech field. The fact that I'm not a ComSci major has not stopped me from landing high paying interships every summer. I intend to merge these two areas after graduating.
Example: If you study business, but have computer skills, you're more likely to get a higher paying job. If you study humanites, but have computer skills, you're more likely to get a higher paying job etc.
Even more personally, I'm not in school to make more money any more than most of you use Linux so that you can make more money. I'm here to learn, and to learn how to learn. Because of that I find myself catching on to things, including tech issues more painlessly than ever.
I'd rather have someone respond than be modded up.
Life has a way of taking care of things. If we all become IT gurus, no one would be available to do the other things we all need to survive. Then those jobs would have high salaries and people'll be forced to go to college to fill them. We can't cheat natural forces! If we don't care about the consequences of what we do, we'll not survive ( we may survive for a while but we'll just be fooling ourselves).
"Fighting terrorists with millitary might is like killing a mosquitor on your Dad's forehead with a rifle."
I've been studying CS for quite a while now and I have to say it's extremely frustrating sometimes. I've written some of my best code for college courses and no matter how good it is, it always gets thrown away.
Also the tests mainly ask for knowledge, but not for understanding. That way you learn hard for a test, maybe get a good mark and half a year later everything is forgotten.
Personally I am very frustrated as a student. Doing work for a startup is far more challenging and gets you good money.
Just my personal feelings.
I currently work full time (40 hrs a week) and go to school part time. It's kind of fun working in an IT department at the University where I also currently take classes. I receive 15 credit hours for $2.00/credit hour. If I take anymore than that (which I do) then I have to pay the full price. I make decent money, so I don't have any student loans to pay off when I'm done with school.
:)
I can really apply the things I've learned in some classes to my job and I think that really helps truly understand the subject.
This isn't for everyone though because I am usually very busy. It really is a good situation for me right now. And you know whats even better? When I graduate college I will have a Computer Science degree with over 4 years of experience in an IT related job. I can see dollar signs.
--pok
Over here in Canada, at the University of Waterloo we have an interesting compromise between work and school. It's called the co-op program -- I know a lot of schools are starting to do this, but UW was built upon this concept -- nearly half the school is in it.
The way it works here is that every 4 months (including during the summer) students switch off between school and work. The school helps you find a job -- our co-op employment rate, even for the non-tech degrees, is somewhere in the 90s. An added bonus is that you usually make more than enough in co-op to pay for your next 4 months of school.
UW is both a well known and well respected geek school. We've consistantly placed in the top 10 in the ACM programming contest (usually beating MIT). Plus grads are very hirable, and (in my experience) are generally good coders. It makes for a good mix of theoretical and practical.
The system is by no means perfect. Despite high standards, there are still idiots who come through it. And uprooting your life every four months with no vacation is not fun. Plus, there is a bit of a feeling around campus of being a factory for employees. But overall, it's a decent system.
I can spell. I just can't type.
I had friends who didn't finish school. Some of them wasted away in sysadmin jobs for years, eventually hopping to the hot new .com that came along, only to have it disintigrate out from under them. Some of them ran off to California, only to find out that the brass ring they were chasing was far more elusive than they expected.
I knew someone who didn't finish school, and stuck around in the same place for long enough to get a so-called "Engineering" position. Do you remember Harvey Keitel's character in Pulp Fiction? You know, the guy that cleaned up after you, when you did something stupid? That was me. I was the one who had to go in and rescue the company from his godawful amateurish mistakes. Occasionally, this required re-engineering the entire thing from the ground up. I can't even begin to go into how much money was wasted because he was being trusted to know what he was doing in a position where he clearly didn't. His lack of solid engineering skills and specific knowledge about some of the technologies he was employing (such as relational databases) would not have been quite such a disaster if he weren't paranoid of the trained individuals who could actually help him overcome this obstacle (such as the DBA).
Certainly, educated people can end up in the same situation as the guy described above. I provide it mostly as a cautionary tale. Don't be this guy. If you're not going to get an education (and hell, even if you are), know when to ask for help, and know when you've bitten off more than you can chew. Otherwise, you'll end up dodging out of your company when everything goes to hell in a handbasket and you don't want to deal with the fallout.
Also, whether you get an education or not, for God's sake, make an effort to become well-rounded. This society is becoming too culturally impoverished as it is without the new up-and-comers not even knowing their own geek heritage. Can you tell Fritz Lang from Friz Freling without looking them up? Remember, you can be a geek, and still learn about the world. Besides, well-rounded geeks are more attractive!
I think it's possible that certifications (RHCE, CCNA, MCSE, whatever) have played a part in this trend. The biggest problem from going straight from high school to the tech industry is proving that you're not someone who can't go to college, it's your choice, and you're actually good at what you do (I speak from experience here.) Certs alleviate this somewhat, and people trying to decide to go to college or not can look at this and the decision seems clear...just compare the starting salary of CS grads with the average salary of a CCDA or MCSE with 0-1 years of experience. Does college pay? Not in that instance, at least, not immediately.
If you're trying to decide on going to college, I recommend going. I didn't go and have ended up doing better than I ever would have dreamed, but statistically I'm an outlyer.
I've interviewed about 100 candidates in the past year. I have hired people with no degree and I have passed on PhD's.
However, the people with the degrees are typically better qualified than those without.
Why is this? Well, I believe degrees conveys a kind of legitimacy. A degree says this person was interested enough in their field to give up four years of their life and a bunch of their parent's money, and had the discipline are wherewithall to get through a unverisity program. There are still plenty of stupid college kids, but at least I know what they are supposed to know, and I can evaluate them pretty quickly. Every self taught guy is different, and that makes my job a lot harder
Does this make college educated people more skilled than someone who is self taught? Probably not. But in an interview, they give me an hour to evaluate a person's entire life. I don't have time to be fair or thorough...I make a SWAG knowing I'm going to be wrong a lot of the time. Half the candidates I see are "self taught" -- meaning they think cutting and pasting a four line CGI into FrontPage is programming. I have to go through the trouble of separating the web weenies sick of working the fry maching from the people who know what they are doing. I see a degree, I can get to the real interview that much faster.
Although I know there is quick money out there for techies now, I believe college is more than just getting a degree. I think you learn responsiblity and independence in college. It is really the first time most people are totally on there own and have to do everything for themselves. It is also about fun and friendship. I think college is valuable for everyone and it is really hard to say forget the money but I guess I would say your life is a long road and the gravy train maybe short. just my 2 cents.
It helps to be able to ask questions of someone who knows more about the subject than you do -- and (sometimes) college professors are good in this role; but you can usually get the same assistance from someone in a user's group or from a co-worker. Finding a mentor is vitally important, IMHO, regardless if you are a college graduate or not. I was very fortunate that when I was starting out in this business I worked with some exceptionally talented people who were willing to mentor me.
You are pretty dead on about the team lead / project manager level being the glass cieling for a programmer w/out a degree; however this isn't necessarily a bad thing -- how many people who enjoy writing code actually want to go higher than this anyway?
The bottom line, as I see it is this: College is important, but not as important as experience. You do need both in the long term. I think you become a better-rounded programmer if you work full time in the real world and go to school part time rather than doing the traditional 4 year college gig and work at student jobs.
"The axiom 'An honest man has nothing to fear from the police'
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
Ever since I started my university schooling three years ago, I've become increasingly aware that most of my classes weren't worth taking. Too often, the majority of the material I take away from a course comes directly from reading the texts. I feel like my parents are cutting massive checks just so someone can regurgitate the book to me in various classes. It isn't always this way, I *have* had a few really great professors, but only a few.
The other concern I have is that my education costs almost $30k per year, yet I could be learning the same material at a school that costs half that or less. Does a degree from an expensive private school really mean that much more than a degree from a less-expensive state school?
I've always wondered how my life would be different today if I asked my parents to just keep the tuition money, and let me split my time between educating myself and working in the field. Sure, I've learned a lot about development here at school. However, I think I could have picked up most of it just as easily outside of an academic environment.
Does anybody else feel that their college education hasn't been worth the time or money invested in it? I've got another year to go yet, and I'm not really looking forward to it.
I find interesting that the vast majority of people proclaiming the uselessness of college degrees are those that don't have them. Also, let's be realistic here: a philosophy degree isn't going to help you much when you're configuring a router. However, in the course of completing my CS degree (and that's NOT IS, or IFSM, or IT; it's CS) I was exposed to a lot of good, current technology that has been quite helpful when configuring a router, designing a cryptosystem, or doing protocol engineering. If you want to be an NT admin, well, that's another story. Are there degreed dolts? Fer sure. Are there undegreed idiots? Fer sure. However, if you take the time to interact with a good number of both, there is no question that those with a degree (well, a CS degree is most pertinent here) will have a broader, stronger grasp of the "why and how" rather than just the "how to configure this box". There are exceptions to every rule, of course. The bottom line is that a degree gives a hring manager another tool by which to judge applicants- and will almost always give the holder an edge except against someone with vastly more experience.
is that they don't let CS majors get credit for classes like "HTML Design."
I think the degree program you are looking for is called computer technology. If you do not like theory, get out of computer science. The counselers at my school made this pretty clear to me before I ever started classes. The statement that theory is useless is just ridiculous. Theory allows you to expand your horizons without having to be taught. If you know how to program in theory, you can easily teach yourself any programming language. If you know how to program a specific language, you are stuck using that language(and will probably have a hard time learning a new language if you do not understand theory). The difference between theory and practice is similar to the difference between a software engineer and a programmer.
So we have someone making a fairly low salary convinced that foregoing college is the smart move. And in the short run, and for the lucky who get rich quick, it may be.
But let's face the facts.
The internet boom is dying. No longer will there be endless venture capital for startups. The computer marketplace will consolidate into big multinationals like every other industry.
Startups are meritocratic, but big companies don't like people without college degrees. As supply meets demand, more people will go into IT with college degrees, meaning there won't be a shortage anymore.
I shudder to think of the day even sysadmins will be expected to have a college degree, but it may be coming. I give it a decade.
Eye of Argon at +1 LIVES!
Now, if you want to make loads of money, or get the coolest jobs, you'll probably need a college degree. But if you don't, and you don't like school, there's absolutely no reason why you should put up with it. (IMO, school is a complete waste of my time.) The conventional wisdom that more schooling is always better isn't always true.
How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
Algorithms and big-O notation
When, how and why to normalize a database
Compiler theory, parsing and grammers
How to elicit a requirements document from a customer
Various software development models from Waterfall to Spiral
How to write a design document for a 3 tier project including UML diagrams, Entity-Relationship diagrams and architectural diagrams
How to work well with others (numerous team projects)
Time management skills
Distributed computing (CORBA/DCOM/Java-RMI)
How hardware works down to the most miniscule level
The above list is stuff I have learned in 3 years of college that I am very sure I would not have learned if I rushed off into industry to become some C++ developer.
Ask yourself this question, how far do people without college degrees go in industry? Besides the prodigies who create their own companies (e.g. Shawn Fanning, Bill Gates, etc) most people who rush into industry will spend their lives as code monkeys instead of software engineers. Companies rarely high school/college dropouts project managers or lead developers and when they do that is usually their glass ceiling.
Frankly my time in college has given me a larger skill set and more knowledge than if I was just cranking out C++ for some company for the past 2 years. This means I am more valuable as an employee and more able to set my own career path unlike a high school graduate who knows how to hack C/C++/Java but not how to engineer projects or exactly how and why certain things work.
Why am I really doing it? Becuase I get to meet a bunch of people I wouldn't otherwise have done and to also get into good habits. Sure you can pass a driving test with taking any lessons from an instructor but are you better driver for it? Doubtful.
Concerning the bandwidth thing, I had never used linux before arriving at uni. Over here in the UK bandwidth was limited and expensive (and will continue to be for a long time to come. Bizarely during peek times at university matters aren't much better. When I joined uni the computer society introduced me to it and I think it's fair to say that the linux community and the net a farily intertwinned.
Heck, loads of open source projects have started out based on uni bandwidth. Plenty of clever programmers have taken their degree work and pushed it somewhere new.
Ok, I know that there is not much of a chance that IT will blow up in our faces anytime soon (if ever) but college does give you something job experience doesn't. A degree can get you a job in alot of different fields, no where close to your specialization. So if the IT world goes to pot, you can at least have some edge in finding jobs else where. That being said, I dont see any bottoming out in the field for a very long time.
"My head hurts, My feet stink, and I dont love Jesus." -Jimmy Buffett
Very true. Good comment. Moderate this up. Also, I would like to add that it is a common misconception that coding is all there is to computer science. I am a 2nd year CS major at Carnegie Mellon. I have learned very little syntax. My courses spend most of they're time teaching theory, we implement parts of it, but I still have many long written (non-code) assignments. I have been here 3 semesters and used 4 different languages (C++, Java, Mathematica, Standard ML). More will come. The idea is not to learn the code, but to understand the ideas so you can solve the problem (and probably hand it off to one of those kids to implement it). I have to prove all of my solutions on completeness and that they will work on all inputs. Anyone can be a code monkey, but having the mental tool set to really tackle abstract problems takes years of practice (CMU will just be a start). The view they are taking is similar to "I know how to write in the English language, so I am qualified to challenge Shakespear." The subtle points such as sitting there and being forced to review code again and again to squeeze out extraneous processor cycles, to drop you run time is lost. Things like that take the need to evaluate the algorithm, which I know I would not have learned if not for college. Also. These kids are not making much. One said like $35K. The one in Silicon Valley was making like $50K. Last time I checked the poverty line for San Fran was $52K for a 4 person family. Obviously he isn't that bad off, being on his own, but not so great.
degree. Even though it only helps you GET the interview and to IMPRESS the interviewer! Other than that, f*** it. I'm 40 now and I wish I had a degree just for the above reason. I know I'm up-to-date with technology on a breadth of technologies, but try getting in the door without "the check point" on your resume is a real b*tch.
College teaches you to work for others, not for yourself. I have school and real world experience and i learnt some important skills to be successful: 1) WORK ETHIC - Get the job done, and done on time. 2) COMMUNICATION - Talk to your boss and your co-workers, inform them of what is going on in a language they understand. 3) LEARN FAST - College does not teach you how to do something IRL, it teaches you the theory behind something and leaves the rest for you to figure out. 4) BE FLEXIBLE - Don't pout when asked to do something that was not in your job description. Do it and show that you can handle those situations. It will pay off when promotion time comes. 5) DON'T ASSUME - My dad always said if you assume you make an ASS out of U and ME. 6) PLAY FOR THE LONG HAUL - Quick advancement in a small new firm with a low starting wage beats a high starting wage in a job with no advancement opportunities, unless that job is all you want to do ever... 7) OPPORTUNITES - Recognize new opportunites and exploit them. (i.e.) the boss says this propriotary software sux, suggest that you build some custom software...then market it to similar companies and make sure you get a piece of the pie! (worked for me :)
All in all, one teaspoon of these essential skills will work better for you than one cup of education. School teaches you to think in a particular way, work teaches you to act in a particular way. What ever you do, always keep your mind open and adapt to new situations.
Ashley Fulks
Network Administrator
Software Engineer
Simply Boss inc.
ADT Security
Even though IT is currently a booming sector and every jerk can get in somehow, there always has been and always will be a glass ceiling for many of those who don't have proper degrees and/or credentials. You don't want to lock yourself in by skimping on education.
;-)
Myself, I am glad for every one of those 9 years I spent getting my degrees. I don't use very much of what I have learned anymore, but the degrees certainly open doors that remain locked otherwise, and the pay scale is different, too.
I have extremely bright and talented friends who found that they had to go back to school and work on those darn degrees in order to advance further in their career. They were bypassed by stupid, but degreed people on a very regular basis. In hindsight, the time spent in school neither detracted much from their professional life (consulting), nor was it much of a burden, but rather it was worth every penny and minute.
In my experience, the total of your experience only starts to weigh more than your degrees once you are past 35-40 or so. It might be different in some IT sectors right now, but what will it look like five years down the line? Do yourself a favor and go to school, and use that time well. You can still work part time on the side and if you are smart, you make a killing even so.
I have been in the industry for nearly ten years, as well as going to school during a good portion of that time.
Something that I've noticed about people who have been to college vs. those who haven't is that the people who've been, "typically" have a better foundation of knowldege, as well as a better theoretical understanding of the fundamental technology.
When you work at a job you only learn the things necessary to get your job done efficiently. When you go to school you get a good technological foundation for a good portion of the technologies. Even though the specific application isn't necessarily what's in use today, a good theoretical foundation will allow you to ramp up on any specifics far more quickly than someone who doesn't understand the fundamentals.
The people with degrees also tend to outpace those without degrees in the long run, both technologically and finanacially.
Everyone can think of some success stories, but they are not the norm. Besides, Bill Gates skipped college and look what happened to him, is there any better argument for going to college?
Doug Tolton dtolton@yahoo.com
Doug Tolton
"The destruction of a value which is, will not bring value to that which isn't." -John Galt
I went to University for a Bachelors in Chemistry, then a Masters in the same. Now I've had a high-paying, really fun job in a company's IT department (not a chemical company) doing both development and production work. I love my job, and like the perks. I don't think I could have done any of it without the discipline I learned in my two degrees, however. College taught me how to reason logically, how to effetively go about solving problems, and how to organize my work.
From what I've experienced here in the trenches, I do question whether or not a Computer Science degree is necessary. If one has the skills and the passion, all that's really need (and is sorely lacking in the workplace) is discipline and strucutre. That's what a person should bring out of college. Science degrees are probably most useful, but I'll wager other degrees would be helpful too.
I never went. Hell, I'm a high school dropout. (Albeit due to medical reasons, but still..) I have multiple certifications (many made fun of on Slashdot on a regular basis, others not) and have now hit six years work experience.
:-)
I make $70k a year, with benefits. My next raise is in two weeks; I expect 10%. *shrug* It helps to skip college if you're capable of blowing past the suits and showing them what you know, not what they perceive you as knowing.
Now, as a sidenote: do I want to go to college? Yer damned skippy. Not for techie skills though, but for Finance and Business Administration. I'm 24 now; in ten to fifteen years I don't plan on being unemployable because the boom is over. I either want the ability to job shift, or to combine my jobs, knowledge, and college into one job. I've got a wife and kid and mortgage payment.
-- Talonius
My reality check bounced.
I used to wonder if the $50K (cdn) I spent going to school was worth it... and then I remembered all the stuff I did outside of class...
If you're just looking to make as much money as possible in as little time as possible doint something you're already good at you probably don't need to go to college. As several people here have pointed out you can make plenty of money as an MCSE and never set foot in a university. But that's not really what college is about. In college you also get to meet the people who are creating the world wich everyone else is making money off of. I'm not talking about the guys who set up networks or add a nifty perl script to a web site. I'm talking about the people who design the networks, protocols, and algorithms the rest of the world is using. In college you get to work with these people and if you decide to go on to get a masters degree or a PHD they will help you along the way. As a PHD candidate or a university researcher you have access to great equipment and huge budgets. You don't have to work on projects that management thinks will make money, you work on projects that intrest you. Yes, it is possible to contact these people via email and IRC. Yes it is possible to learn these things on your own. But as an academian you get to do this stuff full time. And in academia it's the people who really know their shit who call the shots, not the guys in the suits. This is an oversimplification but my point is that college isn't just about landing a fat job.
Last time we discussed this was in January of '99, when we all argued over the relative merits of my existence. (One of the more nerve-wracking experiences I've ever had.) Adam Penenberg (who has since quit after Forbes wanted him to expose a source in a hacking story) did a story on me called "Quit School. Join the web." I guess I'm a better example now -- I've got my own company that's actually doing very well. So I guess you can still chalk me up as an advocate of "joining the web."
-Waldo
-------------------
Nobody else believed in me though. Quite frankly, I wouldn't believe any other snot-nosed 18 year old claiming to be too good for school and sure of himself that he'll make it on his own. So I'll think twice before recommending the same course of action to other people...
"it's spelled snotty"
Nope. It's spelled snooty. Look it up. I guess a Cornell education can't teach you everything ;-)
And another thing mister troll. It is in fact pretentious and elitist to say that all other colleges are "shit". You should be ashamed of yourself for putting down everyone else in this country that doesn't have the financial backing of mommy and daddy that you did. Deeply ashamed.
I did not pick the wrong person to call a troll. I think I picked the exact right person.
I modded the Troll Investigation and I got
oh wait, i go there too...nevermind.
Mooniacs for iOS and Android
I didn't finish school, I ran out of money. I also have been around the industry for a long time now, and think I can make some comments.
First: there are some places where it makes a difference. Places that get some governmental funding, are required to care. Its hard to be a rocket scientist without a degree. In some places, you don't get to manage rocket scientists without an advanced degree. But there are lots of places where they don't care. I have had to find them. Note: CS is one of the few "sciences" where skipping the formalities is an option. If you are a Mech E, or Chem E, you won't be able to skip the sheep.
I do think its a fairly rare individual that can do very well without the full 4 or 5 years. There is a lot of stuff out there, and just finding your way to some of it takes an experienced guide to show you where to look, and you need the time to learn how to digest it. And you do have to read thru the stuff, you don't have time to re-invent it all. But that doesn't mean there aren't some that can skip the process. You are likely not able to make that decision correctly by yourself.
Yea, there is the "trainable" aspect that the first dead sheep proves, and a Phd means you are stubborn enough to finish a significant task.
The biggest thing that college gives you is time. Most of the learning part happens when not in the lecture hall -- if you are doing it right, you are spending 3-4 hours in the company of books, for every hour you spend in the classroom. Once you are out in the real world, you won't have the time to do this. You need to get a fairly solid base up front, because once you are on someones payroll, time to learn new techiques usually comes out of your nights and weekends, not your workday.
I get to read the resumes from a bunch of students, and sort them into the maybee and no piles. Here are some of the things I look for.
The only language that I care they taught you was written english. If you have successfully learned two or three different programming languages, its strong evidence that you can learn the language de jour. What I want to see on the techinical side is courses in techniques, (algorithims, data structures, even theory) not just a bunch of different introductory language classes.
Some things that aren't on the typical CS curriculum, but maybe should be -- from the math department: at least a semester of statistics, the one offered to business majors will do.(something I think every educated person should have) Some numerical analysis or numerical methods, so you know better what "exact" means, and how your FPU guarantees you wont ever get it.
Other stuff: A course that teaches you how to use a library (not a search engine, the actual dead trees on long rows of shelves) - something from the History department is a good bet. From the english department, the courses that are about your writing, not what others have written. The finance 101 course (not accounting, but how money "works" At a minimum, you have to know what the TLA's on the financial calculator mean. (NPV especially -- in fact this whole discussion is a variation on calculating future values of an investment today)).
If you do go into a startup, you will stand a chance of understanding the questions the VC's are asking, and you will know some people that have studied the topic in enough detail to give a real answer.
If you can get into a graduate seminar in some topic, it will teach you how to analyze the work of others, and present it to a group. (what you learn in some of these "off topic" courses should be usefull, but for your Phd in "life", its the process not the content that you will need)
It is very important to have some idea of what has been already done by others, and especially how to go about finding any that is relevant to you. You can be the greatest code slinger out there, but if you haven't seen the well known algorithms, you could spend six weeks building 50 pages of code, when I went and spent 30 minutes looking for appliciable techniques, and turned out 4 pages of code in 2 days, that did a better job. (and yes, thats a real world example)
summary:
The full 4 years are a good idea for almost all. If you can afford to, I would wait on joining a company. You might be the exception, but you are likely not the right one to make that judgement. (you don't know what you don't know). Its as important that you know how to find information, as it is to get specific information stuffed into your head. The techniques are forever, any specific language will be passe' by the time you hit 35.
Organizer:New England Rubbish Deconstruction Society;The NERDS,first US team in the UK Scrapheap Challenge/Junkyard Wars
Even if someone is hired into a compay without a degree, there tends to be a glass ceiling preventing these people from being promoted past a certain level. Especially in larger organizations, those without formal education may find it difficult to get into the higher-pay upper management realm.
Depending on the college, an 'above average' student might do better on his own, instead of having to go thru a curriculum that's been 'dumbed down' for whatever their accepted level of accomplishment is. For instance, I was the 'curve buster' at my school, and one professor stated he could do two things 1) proceed at a rapid pace to satisfy the smarter students actually interested in the subject, and leave a trail of dead bodies behind, or 2) proceed slowly so everyone gets by - of course he chose option #2, thus not challenging me.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
I'm confused by the numerous non-college educated morons who say to skip school. Their point is if you want the money now you should forget college and go work. I say, if you're good enough to make 85k, 95k, 125k, a billion dollars a year at the age of 17 without a BS, think of how much you could make at 22 with one. Plus if you're that good, skip the CS classes and study the ones that interest you and hopefully it will make you a better rounded individual. Think of it this way, college affords you the most unrestrained period of freedom in your life at the best age - why wouldn't you take the opportunity?
I have only ever met one college student with a cs degree that was worth a damn. The answer to the question is a very easy one and one that I firmly believe in. If you have to be taught then by all means you must go to college. If however you are capable of teaching yourself and have the dicipline to do so then skip going to school. I also believe that as a programmer if you have to be taught you are missing the key ingredient called desire thus need to be looking at another field all together.
Got Code?
Everyone that goes to college will definitly have some interesting experiences. These could be either good or bad, but the one thing that is constant is that each individual experience is completely different from the next.
You can go to school, and do nothing but memories 4 years of Mathematics, Physics, and Social studies, or you can binge drink and have enough sex to populate a small country.
The point is, while your experience appears to be a wonderful event, alot of people are/were not in a position to enjoy it (myself included). Good colleges come with a hefty pricetag, which sieves those that can enjoy college to the fullest, from those who have to constantly work to go to school.
My personal experiences with college were less than satisfactory, mostly because I was constantly working. Another disappointment was the calibre of education I was recieving. The hardcore academic classes like advanced calculus and physics were average, but the CS classes were not state of the art, and essentially a waste of my time (and money).
In my situation, quitting school was a good decision because I can now enjoy well-compensated employment and personal time for a life, which I did not have while going to school.
I submit to you this: If college affords you the time to explore things that YOU are interested in, whether it be Advanced theories in finite math, nano technology, Social behaviors of the oposite sex and the impact alcohol has on them, or the study of why the sky is blue, then and only then is it worth your time and money to attend.
Remember that there is noone on this planet that can tell you with absolute certainty that a college degree will lead to success, or that success will require a college degree.
-K
I couldn't disagree with you more. Well, I suppose I could, but I wouldn't want to.
My university only barely taught me the basics of C, assembly, and some other languages. I'm with you so far. But what it also taught me, that would be difficult to get from a book, is how to be a good programmer. Not only that, but how to be a good engineer. Taught me how things work; why we do things the way we do; and what mistakes were made in the past that we don't want to repeat.
Theory is not useless. Theory is what gives you the power to come up with an effective solution to a problem even when you can't find your cookbook. Theory helps bridge the gap between doing something and understanding how and why.
You bemoan the fact that you were barely shown C, C++ and Java, and no VB. I rejoice in the knowledge that I can with confidence call upon my theory and programming fundamentals to use effectively any language.
And on top of that, being at the university did a lot to round me out as a person. I learned history; foreign languages and cultures; literature; and all that other artsy crap that makes you think deep thoughts about human nature and the meaning of life, the universe and everything. In short, I learned many of the things that make me interesting to talk to (or at least, what I have in common with people I find interesting).
Yes, you can aquire all of this without going to a university. But it's a ton of work, and it's much easier when you can have someone who's been there help show you the way.
And I don't mean by teaching you a certain programming language, or by making you into a fantastic programmer. College isn't going to turn a poor programmer into Knuth. That *won't* happen. What college *does* do, though, is prepare you for a more fullfilling life. It teaches you analytical skills. It teaches you how to look at a situation, and figure out what can be changed and what can't. It shows you your place in the world and in history. It teaches you what about yourself is yours, and what is purely stuff you've gleaned from copying other people. It teaches you what in life you can control, and what stuff you can't. It teaches you how to live well with your peers and other people, and it teaches you about how societies and cultures work. It gives you more control over your life. It's a freaking metamorphosis. Literally. You walk in as one person, and you walk out completely transformed. It opens up avenues in your life that you wouldn't have been aware of had you skipped it. Go to college. Don't worry about the fantastic job market. College is the most fantastic four years of your life, and it makes the remaining years all the more fantastic. Don't just go for the classes. Live on campus. Be a part of campus life. Talk to the people you meet. I gaurantee that if you do it with full intention to figure out what college has to offer that you'll come out just as prepared programming-wise, and infinitely more prepared in a whole bunch of ways you didn't even know were important.
I graduated from college with a degree in History, and now work as a sysadmin. I think college is a good place to learn how to interact with people and also how to learn to think independently. I think both of these skills are something that alot of the technical world lacks.
Consider too that the internet changes everything. If you are smart enough and motiviated enough to use the internet to teach yourself, you have practically no limits to where you can go.
That was the turning point of my life--I went from negative zero to positive zero.
Looking through the classifieds and help wanted ads in metropolitan areas and trade journals, I've found that most jobs still require at least a BS in Computer Science. Granted, most of these jobs are Senior .* Engineer. Still, you may skip college and get $50k right away, but you may be stuck at that level without a degree.
--
47% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
Just about any university in the US will be it's own ISP. They'll own a large network of servers, and nowadays to stay competitive, they'll also provide the dorms with free (or very low cost, like mine was) T1 connections to the internet. The servers themselves will have T3 connections.
Wise man say, choose your enemies carefully, for you will become like them...
High Intensity Computer Colleges? by Cliff on Sunday October 10, @01:43AM EDT 322
2 Do Geeks Need College? by CmdrTaco on Monday April 12, @11:50AM EDT 365
2 Should Geeks Skip College? by CmdrTaco on Monday January 11, @09:45AM EDT 475
2 Rob Finishes College by CmdrTaco on Thursday December 17, @11:01AM EDT 134
I have a positive modifier on Troll. When I mod someone Troll their karma should go UP!
Although I don't think it teaches "techies" what we need on the job (we learn that through our own enthusiasm for the subject material), it does provided us with other things we need. It rounds out our knowledge/background and gives us access to more varied experiences then we will ever see later in life.
More obviously, economies change and you never know when all of a sudden a degree may again become an absolute requirement (and it IS a littler harder to go back once you've gotten used to not taking BS for a few years)
I guess in brief, You don't need college to live your life, but it does help make life worth living.
I went to university right after high school, got a business degree (majored in MIS), did what I was supposed to after graduation work-wise, hated it and am now back doing a BSc in compsci and enjoying it immensely. In contrast to the "crash courses" I also considered (versus another degree program), I am learning not applications or environments, but *how* to learn them for myself, so the prospect of being given a project in a language I've never seen with an environment I've never used doesn't cause an aneurysm. As for content--courses like like algorithms or non-procedural programming languages don't nessarily have a direct, immediately visible application in your day-to-day toilings as a sysadmin or developer or systems analyst--but they do let you look at a problem from different angles and give you an expanded toolset.
and generally--university grads have better writing skills, which are important if you want to move into management, or even senior development positions (in proposals and correspondence, grammar and spelling count).
So anyway, my time in college was valuable for me to learn those higher level languages. I remember *compiling* my first program in pascal and thinking "wow...this is weird" because HS taught me none of that.
However, I now see high schoolers having tools available that were not available to me. I think many of these kids right out of HS have the necessary skills to perform sufficiently out in the job market.
If I had had linux and my own pentium computer as a kid, I would certainly have taught myself how to use C, C++, java, perl, and whatever other programming languages I found interesting. As it was, all I had was a Vic 20 and later upgraded to C64.
Of course, there is the issue of wether these youngins can handle other aspects of a job right out of HS. But that totally depends on the individual.
Anyway, some (skillful) 17 year olds can handle a full time programming job, some (skillful) 30 year olds cannot. But I don't believe college is necessary for everyone.
I left school, I got a good job, and left school. Guess what, I like it. I like the money, I like beeing able to buy parts for my PC, anime what have you. But I do regret not havin a degree. Its a 50/50 thing. it all pesonel. The one thing I do know is that geeks dont need college if they busted the hump to learn their craft on their own. A degreee is a piece of paper that says I paid a lot for my education. Its not a bad thing a very overrated... I want a a dregree just to make my parental units happy thats it...
If we refuse to be flexible, we are in effect opting out of the game of life. The world moves on without us.
Couldn't have said it better myself...
Although I'm now stuck in CS (hey, only one year to go, rather than switch majors and have 3 more years) earlier on I should have switched to something else. Why? CS bores me, and I'm not going into the field (most of the industry nauseates me, I need some time outdoors in my career) so I would have rather had some breadth in another field. There are a lot of sciences and disciplines I would have liked to take more than an elective class in.
Two insights: To redeem myself, I'm minoring in MIS, which gives me business courses to complement my CS education (this along with taking serious elective courses in other fields). Also, since I'm not going into IT, then my CS degree gives me breadth for whatever field I DO go into... and no matter what I do for a living, I can also be the indispensable "office tech guy" on the side...
You <B>must be smart</B> if you're going to choose to forego formal education when it's available to you. Only if you're really bright are you going to be able to succeed without the degree. If you're smart you'll be able to progress regardless, because you'll be able to prove your worth through performance instead of degrees. If you're mediocre, then taking that HTML design job at 18 is going to be a mistake, because you'll be doing it forever. With a degree, an average person can at least progress to a managerial level. (No obvious Dilbert jokes please...)
it was also reported here
over a year ago.
College doesn't teach students EVERYthing there is to know. What it does teach is a little of a lot of things. Sure, you may have to take basket weaving courses but in the long run it's better. For example, in school, I had to read the book "1984" by George Orwell. Personally I hate reading but I am thankful that when someone mentions "big-brother", I know what they are talking about.
Here's a true story: a place I used to work (around 7 years ago) for hired some big-shot Visual C programmers. These guys portrayed themselves as the end-all to Windows developement, and this may have been true. The funny thing was when we emailed them a zip file, they couldn't unzip it because they didn't know how! "Just use PkUnzip" we said. "What's that?" they replied.
Yikes.
Ozwald
... if you can afford to.
/. readers skip college, and even more bury themselves in the CompSci department. Get a degree in another field if you can already do the geek stuff. And get clued in more than just your OS of choice.
You'll have to learn to ignore a bunch of political crap, but you'll really learn how to think. And your BS meter will be primed and ready for the real world.
I'd bet that many
Every one of the comments I have read (skipped quite a few) seem to get caught in the job vs degree whirlpool. Go to school, be it a university or technical college, for the fun of it. Stay there as long as you can. Don't consider it a necessary stepping stone to a well paying job, but don't consider it a stumbling block either. Get a job that you like, and you will do it well. Get as much pleasure from doing a good job as you can. You will be spending a lot of your life doing it. But don't forget to have a life. Life is NOT a job. Neither is it a piece of parchment on the wall. Actually, you shouldn't even be asking this question. Somewhere inside you know what the right answer is **for you, at this time**. Just do what you want. Follow through on your decision with both feet.
I have heard enough "techies" (usually young), say the same thing, "Why bother with college?".
Here's why you should bother with college:
- Provable skills
Oh sure, you worked for MomandPopISP.com for 4 years in Backwater, Miss. but what qualifications and certifications do you have on your resume which backs up what you say? Most likely none. This will hurt you later.
- Resume
Sure you can program Perl backwards and forwards and know the latest Cisco IOS, but *most* companies are not going to go past your resume when hiring. *Most* are not going to invite you into a little room and ask you to write some programs and configure your X windowing system. They are going to pick up your resume from a stack of 100 and see who you are on paper without ever meeting you in person.
- Available jobs
Look online at your favorite IT jobs site. 9 times out of 10 they say "BS in CSE or equivalent required". These companies want someone who has a piece of paper that says they accomplished something. The anti-college streak does not exist in HR and hiring departments. There is nothing about "we don't want no book-worm, frat boy, beer-swilling, panty-raiding, daddy's money, college boy" or "3rd grade reading level required".
- More than tech skills
So many times, people who say they don't need college and therefore never went, behave accordingly. They use the words "like" and "you know" over and over again during any explaination. Their spelling and grammar skills are lacking. And their reading comprehension outside of some technical knowledge is non-existent.
- Networking
Forget the 80's yuppie connotations, networking works. College puts someone in an environment with possibly 100's of future contacts who might prove useful with jobs and exiting projects. So many successful companies started in colleges (Dell and Yahoo for instance) when like-minded people were put together in a learning atmosphere.
- Life
Life is more than kernels, switches and code. College exposes human beings such as yourself to the wonders of the world be it through art, literature, or history. In so many cases it is true, if it is not required, many will not do it be it reading, writing or enjoying culture.
I completely agee with your point about many programmers not recognizing the difference between programming and computer science. The third level computer science course here at Carnegie Mellon is taught in ML. While ML is considered by many computer scientists to be a wonderful language, there is little call for it in any industry. On the second day of class the professor defended the department's choice of ML by pointing out that the pupose of the class was not to train us to be better programmers, but to give us a deeper understanding of computation and functional thinking. It surprised me that some students were angry that they were learning something that didn't directly translate into earning a big salary at some company; that simply wasn't the point of the course (and shouldn't be, in my opinion).
If you want to be a world class hacker and/or earn a lot of money, then I don't see any need for what college offers. If you want to gain a deeper understanding of computers and possibly have your name go down in the CS history books, there is no other way.
Ben
What the hell is your major? Buisness administration? Information Systems? How to be a secratary? The courses your described are electives, not part of any serious CS program.
Even the freshmen level CS classes that I took (I was a physics major) were far more advanced than that.
At the time I left in 1998 the well respected school I was attending was still teaching web-design by having students create pages in Photoshop then choping them up and making image maps with PageMill. And I was required to take this class and create pages this way even though I had already created an award winning, industry leading site for an international manufacturing company. Since I had already tought myself the basic foundation of what makes the web different from tradional design I was able to use both skills to create something which was both aesthetically and technically advanced. The school however still had no idea what made the web different and kept trying to push tradional design into a non-tradional media by throwing all the new abilities out the window.
Even worse was the multimeda design class I took using Macromedia Director. In Anticipation of the class I "Borrowed" a copy of Director and bought a few Lingo books. By the time I took the class I was already writing presentations which were more advanced than anything the two quarter class would ever cover. At least in this instance I had a professor who appreciated by ability to "learn outside the box" and rewarded for for it rather than punish me as the web design professor did. The worst part was that the class never even attempted to teach students the basic skills that could be applied to a Director project. Instead they tried to teach students how to do the "monkey work" of basic assembly and preparation of materials for a multimedia project. And while those skills are important to understand it was IMHO hypocritical of the school to be claiming that they were teaching students how to become "Leaders in the Field of Multimedia" while the actual course work created students who where capable of little more than the most basic jobs in multimedia.
Way too much of college today is structured around teaching students how to perform tasks in the prescribed way rather than how to find their own solutions to the problems they are presented. I was bought up being told that this is what Technical Schools are for and that colleges are designed to teach you how to think.
Don't get me wrong here, I loved my time at college and learned more about life by being there than I could have in pretty much any other venue. But as for learning how to learn and grow for a lifetime of meaningfull employment I got much more out of high school.
Maybe I was lucky to attend and outstanding high school and unlucky enough to attend a college which just "Didn't get it". But when it came to the point of me teaching my professors (as it did in both the web and multimedia classes) I had to ask myself why I was paying for this. And once I realized that my professors were learning more from the class than the class was learning from the professors I decided the only way I could stay and finish my degree was if I was being paid to do it. So I left and started my own consulting business.
Since then I've been offered numerous jobs based on my performance and skills. And all I can say is it feels great to be appreciated for what I've proven I'm capable of, not for some piece of paper that shows I can be "trained".
--- Juggle juggle@hitesman.com
Well, to pick up your example, neural networks often adapt more quickly to changes in the input set and tend to yield better mappings in the input/output space than procedural solutions.
Applying this to IT employees, non-trained IT folk are often more flexible and willing to try something new than trained people are. Trained people, however, have often a better potential for abstracting causes out of problems. (Or am I underfitting here? ;-))
Result is: both have their places.
(Wouldn't have needed to descend into AI theory to come to this point, though)
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
I went into college as pre-med. I finished that curriculum but majored in Sociology, deciding medical school wasn't the thing. What do I do now? I'm a web developer. But I'll be damned if that diploma hasn't opened up a number of doors. The degree, especially something showing a broader academic base than simply programming, shows to prospective employers that one can be trusted with a wider array of tasks. If money is what it's about, fine; however, if one wants power and decision-making influence, then the skill set, personal connections, and certification that comes with a college degree is invaluable.
Can what is formed say to that who formed it, "Why have you made me thus?"
No degree here either. I'm 38 and VP of I.T. making well into 6 figures as my base salary. I don't code - haven't for years. I've found that being INTO computers and having superior people skills is what the big dogs want. If you want to get into upper I.T. management, learn how to NOT come across as a geek. If you know your stuff, and people view you as "one of them" - you'll do well - regardless of any degrees or certification. A superior manager knows how to surround themselves with people that cover weak areas in themselves. Top it all off by learning what other departments in your company do and how they function. Come up with creative ways to help THEM look good, and they'll be your biggest chearleaders. Granted, I've probably been in the right place at the right time... and have probably been very lucky. However, don't discount your ability to have a successful career because you don't have a degree.
Well, I happen to be going through this right now, and its something a LOT of techies college-age are going through.
On one hand, we can simply follow hte heard, and go to college, and achieve our precious CS or EE or computer engineering degrees. and that will prepare us all for wonderful, exciting jobs in the Computer industry 4 years from now, right?
right?
why am i not too sure?
well, for one, the courses that these colleges teach, are more or less out-dated, and when they try to update it, they try to go with the hottest latest M$ solution, since "thats what they'll encounter in the businessplace".
alright, fine.
so we learn to make BSODS.
big deal.
what about those techies (myself included) who are into some other area of computing, such as networking, and security, or something that doesnt involve coding all day? hmmm...
"Just take CS anyway, thats sure to help you get that programing job!"
Um, NO.
Until colleges can broaden their choices for degrees into fields that are 1. popular and 2. useful, then young techies will continue to opt out for the high-paying silicon valley jobs, which they can make as much in a year then they'd loose in those 4 years of school, just to learn that those valuable skills are all out-dated or vendor-specific.
Now, im not saying that we should skip out on college, and follow the lure of stock options and high salaries, but until colleges can offer us something better, why should we continue to pursue 4 years of paying high amounts of $$ in order to have not that much in marketable skills once you get out, esp if your area of interest is NOT programming?
Stop over-analyzing your analizations
It's hard to hear that people are shunning college because it was a great time in my life. I got laid a lot, made a lot of uberhacker-friends, and slept with a 10Mb data connection just above my head. My only real responsibilities were to learn and have fun. I even had a decent part time job at the help desk that kept enough money in my pocket to have a good time (ok, I did start to hate talking to idiots who didn't know their ass from a hard drive. I did get the occasional Linux question though).
Three years later I am making 6 figures, I get to wear what I want and my job is pretty cool. If I had the chance I'd go back to college in a heartbeat. The reason, as I have just recently realized, is that life doesn't have to be a work 'til you die kind of thing, and *gasp* money isn't everything. In fact, truth be told, I hate worrying about it. No matter how much you make, there's never enough.
--
*Condense fact from the vapor of nuance*
25: ten.knilrevlis@wkcuhc
*Condense fact from the vapor of nuance*
My guess is that there are many because the real benefit of a 4-year institution is that it allows people the opportunity to discover themselves, where they want to go, etc. And when the skippies discover that, they may choose to go back.
Not many jobs will allow you that freedom.
managers...why god invented purgatory
He is fresh out of the Sherbrooke University where he completed his bachelor degree. While still in his studies he came to my company for a "stage". I trained the guy and I knew that if that kid comes and works for my company, he would soon be my own boss (I hate it when I'm right like this).
My previous boss:
The same age as my actual boos he never did more then High School but he managed to learn incredible technical skills in an engineering consultant company. He only lacks some management skills, specially on howto handle employees, but he's still learning and getting better.
Bill Gates:
He's a late drop-out and I'm sure that he left Harvard just before learning on howto do reasonnable business with others.
Myself:
In 1982 I was 16 and I programmed a 3D algorhytm in basic on a vic-20 (results were printed out for futur capture on film Super-8, that's the closest I got of "real-time 3D). That's crazy but I did not know anyone making money out of computers so I did not study right away in computers and I lost my chance of being really someone in the field.
Conclusion:
It's only a rule of thumbs with some rare exceptions but there it is: "Life's easier with each degree you get".
As a student who is just beginning his Freshman year in CS at Cornell, I have to admit that this was a question that I had to consider over the past year and will probably grapple with all four years of college. Each month, when I write a check to make the monthly tuition payment, I wonder whether I would be better off earning about 2 1/2 - 3 times more each month than I am currently giving away. And each month I come to the same conclusion--no.
While most of what you learn in college will not in any way relate to your future career, the people you meet and the experiences you have will be carried with you the rest of your life. If you always dreamed of working in a shared office space as a UNIX sysadmin, then maybe college is not for you--but, if you have ever wanted to start your own business or do high-level research in CS, then there is no better place to be than a major university.
In college, classes only occupy a small portion of your day. Unlike work in an IT department, which we leave you drained and too tired to really do meaningful independent work, college will leave you with plenty of time to pursue whatever you want. If you have any aspirations or career goals that extend beyond IT, then you can use the extra time that you have in college to get a leg up. For instance, I want to develop my own web network; where will I be better able to begin--working 40+ hour weeks for an established company or in my bountiful free time at college (especially considering that there is nothing else to do in Ithaca). If I acheive my objectives and reach a point where I would be better served by dropping out, I have no qualms about doing so. Remember, it is easier to drop out of a good college after getting in than it is to reapply to a BS program after going directly to work.
For those who aspire to nothing more than the IT life, go ahead, college has little to offer you. But if you would like to meet smart people, learn interesting things, and get a leg up on a future career in your free time, then give college a chance. I think Bill Gates answered this question best when he said that college is an excellent option that should only be dismissed in favor of the opportunity of a lifetime. Take his advice if you ignore mine.
ByteMyCode.com: A Web 2.0 code sharing community.
It depends what you want to do with your life. A realized that I have no desire to be a code monkey for the rest of my life, which is why I'm in grad school. My university's CS curriculum taught me very little in the way of "how to program", I just learned a bunch of different things about the CS field, took a bunch of part time jobs, and discovered the fields I found to be interesting. On the other hand, I can imagine that few university CS programs are particularly good, and some might be captives of coporate intests that want to churn out more code monkeys.
If I wanted to spend the rest of my life maintaining networks or fulfilling the latest code specs, then grad school (or college) would not be for me. But since most of my goals are in expanding my knowledge of CS research, then the last thing I would have wanted to do would be bypass college to just start programming.
Finally, once I finished college, I wasn't limited to CS-- I could have decided to go to law school, or go into investment banking, or become a teacher. So I figured out what parts of computer science I found interesting, did a lot of cool research, and was _still_ able to do anything I wanted with my life. Good deal, in my mind.
-Dean
It depends on what you're looking to get into, of course - management level usually requires college, but in this industry overall, I would say college is highly overrated.
For all of you who think there's no sexism in techie circles, think a little harder about what is implied by this offhand comment. I dropped out of school to become a coder, and I'm certainly not a man, young or otherwise.
I tried university a couple of times, Engineering once, and Advanced Comp Sci. once. I quit both times, because of life's little curve balls.
Luckily, I had enough knowledge that I could work doing CGI scripting, so that kept me in house-and-home (mostly) for the 6 years since my last attempt.
But, I've noticed recently that this has presented a problem. I'm bascially a High School graduate, but I'm burnt out from CGI programming. So what do I do?
My point is, you can skip College/University if you feel it's best for you, but make sure you have a backup plan, because what you choose to do in lieu of school may not be what you want it to be, or you may want something else later. Without a good education, it's pretty much McJobs, unless you go back to school.
Personally, I'd love to hear some arguments/advice about this, since this is exactly what I'm facing.
HTH
This is my
This is my
--An Oldie, but a Goodie!
I think college is a wonderful experience. I can say that all the technical knowledge have long forgotten, but all my friends and memories will never go away.
I have gained a lot of knowledge throughout 4 years of college, but what's more valuable is the person I've become to be. Attitude is much more important than knowledge. I've learnt what to treasure or not, what to value or not, how to share with people and of course....have a few cans of beer and enjoy the moment with good friends,after all the hardwork we've been through.
Success is not measured by how much money you can make and how early you can retire. It's how well you can handle relationships and people. Of course many of those who didn't go through college won't understand this....
I'm an MIT drop-out (class of '93), who is now a contract programmer.
No doubt there are people who are leaving or skipping college because the money's good. Those people impress the hell out of me, because they are clearly impervious to social pressure.
The social pressures to stay in college are enormous, whether you are a middle- or upper- class kid just trying to live up to social norms, or a lower-class kid carrying the aspirations of your family on your shoulders. I assure you, the message is drummed into all of our heads from a young age that someone without a college degree is a failure, barely fit for flipping McHamburgers.
Nothing I have done, no political positions I have taken, no opinions expressed, no deeds committed (and I have racked up some doozies) have offended, threatened, and upset more friends, family and acquaintances than my dropping out of college. Nothing I have done required more courage of conviction, more steadfastness in the face of social pressure.
And frankly, I expect the reason young geeks are leaving the educational system is same or similar to my reason for leaving:
I was tried of being a child, and wanted to be a grown-up.
I was sick unto death of the prolonged adolescence which is college, even in such a sink-or-swim place as MIT. There are people who love being adolescents, and want to be one as long as they possibly can. Well, I hated it. I hated being a child from about age five on, and couldn't wait to join the world of adults. I hated being a second class citizen, I hated having no say in my fate, I hated having no effect on the Real World.
I hated the fact that whenever I expressed such sentiments, I was poo-pooed: "Oh, you don't want the world of bills and responsibilities and all that ikky adult stuff; enjoy your privileged childhood and don't worry your pretty little head about it."
I am a geek and an engineer: that means that somewhere deep in my soul is a drive to tinker, to build, to inflict my will on the systems around me, to push limits, to explore. In short, to exercise power over the material and intellectual world around me. My experience of youth was of being kept from the Real World, the world of things, the world of real concerns, the world of real systems: of being kept profoundly powerless.
I left school not for a cushy, lucrative IT job, but for the crap-shoot of secretarial temping. I did it because I couldn't stand to be apart from the real world of work, rent, bills, etc. I did it because I decided it was better to be an adult in the humblest of circumstances than an over-grown child in a gilded nursery.
I expect that many young geeks who eschew further "educational" (and those are indeed sneer quotes) institutionalization, are not lured by mere wealth -- what geek is? -- but by the opportunity to do Real Work, in the Real Adult World, which Really Matters.
Yeah, maybe running some company's corporate webservers isn't profoundly meaningful, and at the end of the day doesn't confer as sense of having bettered the world. But at least it mattered to someone what work you did, it mattered to someone whether you lived or died, it mattered whether the job got done.
And nothing in the artificial exercises of accademia will ever confer that feeling.
The money merely makes the choice to flee adolescence less financially dicey. It's not the money, it's the chance to be a grownup that is the temptation.
The choice to go to college or not is an intensely personal one -- as much so as what religion one follows -- and it sickens and offends me that people treat the issue as one of public policy.
Are these young geeks doing a bad thing by skipping, leaving or differing college? Well, who are we to second-guess them? Who are we to cluck our tongues in consternation and tell them they are screwing up their lives? Are those lives not theirs to do with what they wish?
If college is such a wonderful thing, no doubt word will get out, and those of us who don't have degrees will eventually get them. Contrary to everything you might have heard, it's quite possible to go back to school later in life -- heaven knows, the subway here is coated in advertisements for degree programs for working adults.
Frankly, I look at college and I don't see anything I want. That's all the reason in the world a person should need for not going.
Sure, there might be things I'd learn which would make me a better programmer, but I'm happy working (at a paid job) only 40hrs a week and would rather not sacrifice my composing, my writing, my music history research, my reading in medieval studies/structural anthropology/20th cen. literature/etc. to go back to school to be a better programmer. Sure, there might be classes in those topics at a college, but I hate the classroom environment and love coding professionally; I don't want to give up my career.
Sure, maybe a college degree would help me command more money....
But it's never been the money.
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-*- Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -*-
I went to college for a semester at a local technical college. I dropped out as soon as I realised that even in my small city I could make more money than my mother does annually (and she has a master's degree!!!)
Not going to college *has* contributed to my not getting certain positions, I am sure... but the fact that at my age I have much more hands-on experience than a college kid could have (I would have just graduated in the spring) is always an added bonus.
I know for a fact that I didn't miss out on any parties. I wouldn't have gotten invited anyway. If I would have shown up, I probably would have gotten beaten up (I was a trench coat wearing freak.)
College really depends on your field. It is true that most collegiate programs are EXTREMELY far behind in technological terms. However, then there are colleges which *are* the bleeding edge of technology. A degree from your local po-dunk 4-year college may not be worth much when you get out, other than being a "piece of paper"... but if you can get into a college such as MIT on the bleeding edge, GO FOR IT!!!
wolf31o2 Developer, Gentoo Linux Games Team
You may never experience speeds so high elsewhere. Your poxy ADSL lines can't compare to a fight pipe. Of course you'll have to be up at around midnight to get it but there's nothing like downloading a redhat image at 600k+/s...
there's more of course, add your own.
George
I encourage you to drop out. If you are only interested in admin duties you are wasting your time and money at school. You can't afford to lose any brain cells at drunken college parties. You need to protect what you have in order to fix upper management's e-mail and drink holders. Plus the dumber the competition, the easier my rise to power.
School does have its advantages.
For some reason, having a degree makes you more "professional" in the eyes of a pointy-haired boss and the lemming stockholders.
Im sure many stockholders in company X would like someone in management or in charge of the network infrastructure to be someone who didnt even go to college.
Personally, I think its a load of crap.
List of what I see in school thats proves its worthless:
1) I am currently getting a CS degree for the purpose listed above. Here is the stickler, *** they require everyone to take RPG and COBOL to graduate ***
Not Perl, not Java, not even C++, but frigging RPG and COBOL!
2) Have you actually seen some of the numbnuts that get into CS because "its the next big thing" and "I can make a ton of money"?
There is thing called a "knack". Either you have it or you dont. Most of the people I run into just plain dont.
3) Scariest of them all. The proffessors just pass everyone in the class because they dont want they failure rate to be too high. Meaning we have all sorts of shiny CS degree and MCSE's that have no clue what they are doing.
------------- I didn't know she was your sister I swear!
And now my rant on GE classes. History, English, math ad naseum. WHY? ok, I may not be the best speller but I own a spell checker. I dont really care when george washington crossed the deleware. If I do it ill be in a power boat not a paddle boat and if people are shooting at me I sure wont be stupid enough to stand on the bow but I think I could have figure that out without studying about. History is good if your a historian or intrested in the area of history but its actual appliation is to waste more time. I colleges just taught what was needed to do your job well then maybe my opinion will change but for now I still think its a waste.
--- Always remember. 99.36% of all statistics are inaccurate.
And I suppose you would turn down someone with a military background then also? It is stupid fucks like you that get bit in the ass by snot nosed college dumb asses. If you cannot be taught by yourself you have no business being a programmer.
Got Code?
Even engineers need to learn to write, and critical thinking is invaluable.
That having been said, many entrepreneurs that we're all familiar with never finished college, but not all of us are entrepreneurs, some of us need critical thinking skills as part of our everyday jobs.
My case may be unusual, since I studied sociology in college, but it has proven to be invaluable in my work as a developer
-------------------------------------------------
I bent my wookie
College doesn't guarantee breadth of knowledge, nor does it necessarily guarantee an education. Like anything in life, you get out of it what you put into it.
Besides, there are far too many overeducated jackasses around as it is.
Not to say that college is worthless, but it is not the guarantee of quality many wish it to be. That said, it's true that job mobility is more difficult without a degree. Though not as much as some in this forum claim.
I personally found college to be rewarding and useful. But, I never really worried about my GPA, and it has never haunted me once. Employers don't ask me to prove I actually have a degree, nevermind what my GPA was.
I forgot to mention one important point, and this is directed at employers. If you hire somebody that it good at something that didnt learn it at school then you have strong evidence that if things change and new skills are required, they can adapt. If you hire somebody that got a formal education, when skills or languages change, you have no idea if they have to go back to school or not. The self taught has PROOF that they can adapt.
Sneakemail is to spam filters what an ounce of prevention is to a pound of cure.
I skipped college and educated myself. People often claim that people like me who choose this route aren't "well rounded individuals". I'm afraid being well rounded has little to do with what University one attends. I have plenty of friends in schools such as UC Davis and UC Berkley who feel it's more about partying and drinking beer. I have yet to hire a sys admin or programmer with a degree who I felt had the ability and drive to self educate. Lets face it, working in this industry is a constant learning experience, going to school teaches more often than not what technology was a year ago or more, while jumping into the business will keep you on the cutting edge.
I'm 22 years old, a multi millionaire and a very well rounded person. I've been a musician for 13 years playing over a dozen instruments, I've studied philosophy as well as physics not because a professor MADE me but because I wanted to.
The problem with the Universities these days is they have to many required courses that have no purpose what so ever other than to make their wallets fat. 4 years and $150k later you have a little piece of paper saying you know "something". Americans have gotten lazy, all of the information you could ever dream of is on the internet, in your public library and in the minds of your colleagues and coworkers. The people forcing college down our throughts are the old school "boys club" folks who have something to gain from it, or feel guilt/stupid for doing it themselves when a much more lucritive route existed.
Granted their are things Universities are still good for, Doctors and Lawyers have much to gain from the experience, but UNIX geeks and programmers have ever so little.
On the other hand, it is their right to waste that time. I frittered lot of time in school, and was very lucky to be able to do it. I was told to leave school. Education was important enough to me that I stayed and completed my degree. I also worked on the most challenging jobs I could find to compensate for the fact that my grades were bad.
That said, I think that it is a mistake for some IT people to skip college. The reason is that college, at it's best, teaches the techniques to master new material and fully integrate the new knowledge into life. I don't know how smart I am, but I have tested at high levels. College honed that natural ability into a functionality that allows me to perform well in a wide variety of jobs. As a result, I have not been limited to a certain field. I have done well in research, testing and calibration, process engineering, and now programming.
College has given me a flexibility that I do not see in some of my non-college graduate collogues. Admittedly, some people have a natural ability to master and integrate new information. For those who don't, college provides a unique opportunity to develop it.
It is good to have a core skill, and one is smart to develop a core skill during High School. I used my core computer skills for pocket money during college. But, much like the one trick pony, survival depends upon the ability to update ones repertoire.
I would think that techies would still want to continue their education. There is something to be said for people who know a little more about the world than only computers and their one particular skill. Also, a lot of times the person can encounter glass ceilings as a direct result of not having some kind of degree. And wouldn't it make it harder to get an MBA if you don't have an undergrad diploma? I think an MBA in our field can always be nice to have. Dont' know....just a thought. Maybe I'm trying to make myself feeling better for having already spent 3 years in college and loving it. -Nick
about dropping out of Haavard to start Micro-soft.
I wonder if he ever finished his formal degree??
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
Life is full of hoops that one is obligated to jump through. There are few things more certain - death, taxes - than a high school senior's opinion of himself. The crushing demand for programmers and administrators has created an anomalous job market. It is unclear how long this situation will last. What is clear is that the high school kid without a degree who pursues the a hi-tech career will get older. He (gender neutral) will probably get married. In short, he will be utterly screwed when the demand for hi-tech grunts wanes. The insult becomes clear when he has to compete against both the peers and the young whelps who have degrees.
That's a very unhappy place to be. I saw many people in exactly this position when I got my degree at UMass/Boston. It took me ten years from my high school graduation to get just a bachelor's. It made a noticable and positive impact on my salary.
If you are a recent high school grad or even a current student who is considering dropping out, please do yourself a favor and think seriously before pursuing a career sans degree. You may be one of the lucky ones who makes it - ala Bill Gates - but that's really a sucker's bet.
For me college is a joke. I took my time looking into it. Living in a dorm, drinking beer and joining a frat all while supposedly "growing up" didn't make sense for me.
I chose my own path, and have proven myself to my peers and the people who have hired me to work for them.
I don't have a college education, i have an open mind, and honest heart and i will work. Everyone whom i work with who HAS a college education is so stuck in there ways and habits and beliefs that they cannot in any shape form or fashion be in the IS group and maintain a clear and concise communications channel to make things flow, the college grad is off to try and snuff someone elses job because they think they can rather then trying to feel the need to accomplish anything. I feel if you earn your education its better off then buying it, i wish smart people had a smart school that wouldn't put them in debt for life or produce assinine souls.
College to me adds biggotry to the soul. I don't see the asset in learning how to conform. If college was only the price of an education i would be there in a heartbeat.
My university has been the internet, my spare time and lots of mocha's and coffee at Barnes and Noble and such. I find it more rewarding to crack open a book and theorize from many different sources then be told a wrong and right way to do things. I get pissed off when a teacher demands one way of thinking.
Being a self taught person i understand how i learn. College is great for people who can study and apply what they remember. College is not however the easiest route for someone who is inventive and conceptual about how they perceive things and do things.
Hey, i'm 24. Make 60k a year, have full benifets, a huge 401k plan already and paid tuition. I will NEVER have a college loan or payments to m make, I am however working on getting an associates in business and managment so i can advance my career. I am simply going to community college that is right in front of the company i work for since we donated the property :)
So to me, going to college is a waiste of time. I lived my drinking days, partying, skipping school and "general college freedoms" when i was in high school. When i went out to the real world i went out to accomplish something. College doesn't give you that, simply choosing to do something does.
But be a wise man/women. Choose your own path.
So tell me, If I've had a comptuer since I was 8 years old, and when I went to college for a few months they were teaching stuff I knew from back when I was 8, why should I sit through this class and have them take credit for what I knew about when I was 8?
I can learn faster by purchasing the books and reading them faster. The Java course, the pace was so slow that by the end of the course the most we were supposed to be able to program was a little zork-like game in text-mode java.
I live in Canada BC (Americans that is the country north of you, the western-most provience)
I was looking at CS degees from UBC and the first thing I noticed was that the first year is spent not learning anything about computers at all. The Second year has all the introductory courses... That's right, by the end of the second year you only have to know how to turn the computer on and use a word processor.
Now that was a little too generalized, but the point is that why should I be wasting my time and money to get nothing in return? I do not, and have never cared about "making big bucks" because I will prefer a less-stressful line of work so I don't wind up being one of the "I hate my job but I get lots of money" people.
Now point number 2. Having looked at the Jobs in Canada and the Jobs in the USA, it appears that the Jobs in Canada are either more challanging, or they only want overqualified people to do what people off the street can do. I've seen job postings (Canada) where they want a CS degree to do word processing and spreadsheets, but I have also seen ones that want you to know every single programming language, protocol, and piece of hardware out there. Compared to the American jobs where a CS degree gets you more specific jobs instead of the broad jobs ones in Canada. (The typical job I've seen in Canada has CS degree and about 30 requirements, where as the American ones are CS degree and about 10 requirements.)
As for communication skills, people never talked to me through out (Grade1-12)school, college will not change that? It didn't in the 5 months I was there. I'm not a party person, I do my best communication through text not speech.
I think someone I was on IRC with the other day said it best "School teaches you not to think" , and I think he is right. Schools teach students that there is only a certain way to solve a problem. This has been proven by the fact that the Questions on the exams wanted the text-book answer, giving my definition instead of the text book produced "the wrong answer", even though it was the same answer. (Personally, If a school is supposedly teaching a computer-related program, WHY are we still using paper tests?)
I could go out and get A+ certification right now. I could have done it when I was 13 had it been around at that time (Maybe it was.) I could probally go and get all the Microsoft certifications, BUT all the jobs listed want the CS Degree more frequently then any certification at all.
Someone else said that a Degree is nothing more than a warrenty for the employer. Just because something has a warrenty doesn't mean that they won't screw up or do anything wrong.
Sorry for being cynical, but I'd rather work for nothing, Spend as much time needed to solve the problem so I do not have to go back and fix it. It would be a perfect, except that without any money you can't buy food, clothing or shelter.
I might be the kind of person that would rather have something work all the time, instead of going back to fix it. (Anyone notice that certain brands of computers need to be fixed a lot?) The last 10 or so computers I've serviced(while not working for someone) , the previous time I serviced them was a year apart. In between those two time periods they have had no problems at all. Compare this to when I was working for someone, I was told "Just fix it as fast as possible" which resulted in this one i820 computer having to be fixed a dozen times within two months, each time reinstalling the OS. (For those who don't know, the i820 MTH problem resulted in a recall of these boards, howver that was not the problem in this case, Intel's INF update utility was resulting in the problem (that wouldn't appear till an hour later, making it difficult to pinpoint the problem.) Intel (weeks later) released a INF update utility that didn't produce the registry corruption problem.)
If I were going to change fields, then I would probably return to full time classes in the new field I choose.
I've gained far more knowledge via 15 years of working than I ever would have persuing a Masters degree. I have no regrets about my choices, other than the occasional social aspect (coworkers speaking of their college days which I can barely relate too).
I AM, therefore I THINK!
School sucks, I went to the University of Toronto, then transfered to York University, hated them both and dropped out. Both for science. Completed first year, failed everything else. It was boring. I stopped going to class, didn't study for tests (or didn't even show up). "Schools out forever!" -Alice Cooper
It can work, but my running assumption is that it will come back to bite me in the ass. Now, be assured I have every intention of getting a degree. But there's something to be said for working a good coding job for a few years so you can go into (And come out of) college without being broke.
:)
Myself, I'm doing alright. But it can go a lot better. One of my coworkers barely graduated HS, became the "Best CF Coder in the State" (A dubious honor in my book, but it got him a spiffy certificate) and now makes something like $70k, he's maybe 22. Co-owner of his own business, lining up big deals with various industry leaders, yadda, yadda. He'll never need a degree, but I know I will. Now, it can go a lot worse too. A HS buddy of mine has been going the same route as me, but he didn't find that high paying IT job, so paying for school when that day comes won't be as easy.
Sure, you can land a high paying job in a startup, but if that company goes under in five years, my friends, you're screwed. They say it's never too late to go back to school, well, who knows. Maybe in 5-10 years we'll see a rash of early-thirties guys going back and getting degrees..
Yeah it must be great to be 20 years old and making $70K....but in two years when that 20 year old is 22 and looking for a raise, guess what? They'll get replaced by another 20 year old happy to make $70K. The goal of a formal, collegiate education is not to fill you with bleeding edge technology information. Its to provide a base for those students to learn those bleeding edge skills faster and apply them better than the 20 year old who took the webmaster position. Those with a formal education are desired in workplace, put the flames away I'm talking overall, because they have fundamental knowledge not just a single usefull skill. Sure I paid a lot to get my education and it irks me when someone younger than me is making more money than me doing CGI or Sysadmin work but if I get fed up with my job, I can take my education, go elsewhere and do whatever I want. The 20 year old webmaster could leave his job and go.......be a webmaster somewhere else.
why not do it for another 4 years while attending college. Then you'll be that much smarter when you go looking.
This is actually a great trend. Within hours we get a story telling us our country's educational system sucks so we can't turn out enough qualified people to fill high-tech jobs, and then one where apparently someone somewhere will hire you without bothering to go to college. Irony anyone?
I was a terrible student... since I was very young I struggled in school and no matter how hard I tried to focus on my education, I just couldn't make it work. Who did well instead? Folks who could play the system. You see, modern education is a system just like everything else. If you can play the game, you can do well. If you're not good at the game, well you get labeled as ADD or lazy of just stupid.
Truth be told, I'm not any of those. When I was in school I tried to learn things rather than just spit information back out on a test. I got lost in learning and in turn lost track of class. So finally i graduate high school and go to college. I have high hopes that things will be different since it's "Higher Education" and classes might be geared more towards people like me.
Can I say that I was wrong? I get my MCSE (only because it was easy and looks good on a resume) and went job hunting after flunking out of college. I found a job with a great ISP and am now making more money that most of my college grad buddies will make for quite a few years. Funny thing is, nobody ever asked my why I quit school when I came to work here. Later on I find out that almost nobody working here has finished school. In fact the smartest, most productive guys I know are college drop outs like me. They said that they wanted good hackers rather than some guy with a degree who knows how to install windows (and then about crapped his pants when i formatted my windows box to use linux).
Not everyone sees it this way, but the truth of the matter is that people truly learn out of the classroom. The class is a formality and for some it's enough. That's why we have grads going into the work place for the first time and being totally clueless even though they are "educated" people.
I have no problems with education, I think it's great, very important. But one cannot substitute the classroom for good solid life experience and intrest.
Silly slashdot, sigs are for kids!
That's not to say that anyone could actually find WPI an amusing time of your life, but why rush off and work day in day out for the rest of your life and get married young?
-Daniel
Perhaps if Universities offered degrees that combined topics such as formal logic, discrete mathematics, formal languages, data structures, algorithms, and network analysis, they could provide the sort of thinking needed to handle generalized problems, which could then very easily be translated into any specific language or application from firewall strategy to perl scripting or development in c++, java, or scheme. This would be in contrast to a degree specific in C++, Java, and VisualBasic like the ones taught at my university, which reqiure no mathematical analysis past basic calculus.
It is just my opinion (biased, I know), but I believe that training students for mathematical maturity may breed techies better trained to learn specifics on their own, at an accelerated rate. Of course, employers would need to learn to value these skills over simple exams (MCSE et al.)
College will teach many things which seem superfluous at first. Yes, it is possible to learn a programming language at home, but there are things which most people wouldn't bother. These things are taught at university. For example, how many self taught people would learn computer architecture, data structures, etc. at home? Of course there are some, but most of them wouldn't. And then they would create horrible code.
...
Once I had a Perl script which did something like
for ($x = 0.3; $x != 10.3; $x += 1)
It didn't stop at 10.3. I quickly figured out that the culprit was the internal representation of $x. None of the uncolleged people at work could figure this out. However, since I learned computer architecture at school, I very early on realized what could be wrong and made a workaround.
So yes, college education is good. They teach you the basics on which you can build on later.
Vilmos
I've seen these articles pop up time after time, on /., time, forbes magazine, you name it. And I think a fundamental point is missed by the authors, as well as in discussions following such publications (like the one happening right now). These people may be "techies" - but it doesn't take all that much to be one.
So, Mr. so-and-so makes $40K a year doing something vaguely described as "computer networking". Yes, in this hot technological climate people are willing to pay top $$$ for work which amounts to crimping cables, crawling through the ceiling tiles and setting up network workstations. This is not nuclear science here. You don't go to college to learn "white-orange, orange, white-green, blue...." order of colors in a CAT5 cable. If you don't want to invest the time to figure it out by yourself, with books and web (as most of us did), you can take a 4 week course that will teach you anything you need to know to be a $40K CAT5 crimping engineer and cable plugging monkey (no offense implied, this is how these people are referred to in my workplace, and hey, that's all they do :)).
What's wrong with making money this way you might ask? Nothing! But people who pass up an opportunity to receive a round-up education to get a hot IT/MISA/Junior sysadmin job in Silicon valley (gee, maybe even with stock options!) should stop and consider what the demand will be like for their job in five years. Right now, despite the slowdown in tech stocks, the growth rate is explosive and top dollar is paid for anyone who can get the job done at least well enough to last till next round of fund raising. Once the dust settles down, the HR people will need to decide who stays and who goes... and a college degree (with implied skills in communication, problem solving and ability to learn new things) will suddenly mean a good deal.
I anticipate that some people will dislike what I've said. Don't get me wrong, there are some highly talented people who might even be better off without college. But for every 10 cable crimper and windows networking "engineers" there may be only one person who will actually learn the things that they missed out in a college education on their own.
Flame away...
Alex
Well, if you're a techie that is. I went to a tech college for 4 years (yes, you get funny looks when you say you're a tech college super senior) to get my degree. A degree is a piece of paper, nothing more. It's a certificate of attendance and money spent. The only learning I did in college was at about 2 AM when the caffeine was at its highest level and there was no stopping my network building/testing/destroying!! What I learned from class is basically how to make it look like you're learning, how to skip every class and show up for the final (only to ace it andd go home), and how to figure out who is a techie and who's looking for a career change and they want to learn more about these computer thingies that sit in front of them at work. I slept all day, drank Mt Dew all night, and took more out of college than anyone else. Simple fact, I went for the degree. I got my degree. Now I have a good job. Could I have skipped college entirely? Yes. I could have worked full time at Subway to make money for my home projects. Sadly, employers like to see a degree. Shame on them anyway.
"You'll die up there son, just like I did!" - Abe Simpson
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
I prefer to hire engineers who never attended college or left early. I think college warps you. Too much theory. Every engineer I know with a BS or worse MS are so into the latest thing without thought to its real world applications. I've had people coming in to interview wondering why anyone want's to proram with C/C++ anymore since Java is sooo much better.
But then comparing a BS in Aerospace or Mechanical Engineering with a BS in Comp Sci is like comparing a jet fighter pilot with an RC plane pilot.
>But typically I need only a few Alpha-Thinkers,
>whereas I need many more Sysadmins, implementers,
>testers, bug-fixers, porters, and >small-feature-implementers.
Exactly! I worked as a tester and a sysadmin, and while it's nice to do for part time money, it's the _last_ thing I'd want to do for the rest of my life. Education is a great escape out of that. If that's what someone wants to do, then they _shouldn't_ go to college, because they'd hate it.
-Dean
Something very few people bring up is the fact that the university is also a research environment. There are lots of smart people here doing cutting-edge thinking about software and hardware, and by attending school you have a chance to talk to these people and get involved. Yes, you can go to college and just take the classes you need to get by the major, but if you take some time to make friends with the professors and get involved in what they are doing, you'll learn far more than if you had spent four years writing perl scripts for a web site.
:-) You'll learn a lot about working with other people doing these sorts of things, and that's incredibly important once one gets out into the job market.
You'll also have a chance, in addition to straight computer science to take a lot of higher math courses. Calculus, linear algebra, statistics and discrete mathematics (set theory, predicate logic, finite state autonoma among others) are all quite important to know for many software applications.
It's also an excelent opportunity to get involved in student groups that do totally non-technical things, like environmental activism, cultural groups, or even trying to legalize marijuana
There are several things that you gain from going to college.
1. The "Piece of Paper". The degree goes a lot to say that you have completed a list of requirements, proving that you do know some stuff. (Practical experience may be a little different.)
2. You learn how to deal with bureaucracies and all that they entail. This can help in a future job at a big company. You will have to deal with their bureaucracies and politics.
3. In some classes (Engineering, Information Systems, Computer Science) you work in teams on certain projects. This gives a vital, yet often overlooked, skill. Communication.
4. You get to spend thousands of dollars to some institution.
--That's alright. I always wanted to be CAPTAIN USA!!!
Although I believe college is ultimately worthwhile relative to the other options for even the brightest of students, this does not mean college is optimal at producing the best and most capable individuals for society. The chief problem, in my eyes, is the unwillingness of virtually every program in every college to seperate the students. The only real seperation of candidates between college and non-college educated people occurs during the admissions process, not throughout college. This is a mistake. In other words, the chief difference between an 18 year old kid who gets accepted to a good college and one that does not is a couple answers (not points, there is a difference) on SATs, high school performance (where grade inflation and the like play a huge factor), and participation in extracurricular activities (i.e., sports). Although there is little else that can be done by the admissions officers, it is still a poor measure of seperating out students.
Then in the college programs themselves, the schools do very little. First, the work load [i.e., quantity] in most schools is quite light--hardly a sufficient burden to filter out those who can't work "really" hard--most students still find plenty of time to party. Second, the work [i.e., quality] itself is generally too easy. Because the work has gotten less demanding, grades have inflated to high Bs in many schools. Students, in an effort to stand out from the rest of the pack, have focused more and more on making fewer and fewer mistakes, rather than focusing on achievement--the work allows little room to demonstrate exceptional understanding. Third, empirically speaking and perhaps a little redundant, there is very little attrition going on at the better schools. Almost without exception, the only kids who fail out are those who screw off too much.
The end result is sub-optimal. Rather than encouraging exceptional intelligence and exceptionally hard work, we encourage a sort of plodding mentality, that of merely going through the motions. I complain not because I feel it is "unfair", but because I think the system, as is, serves society poorly. Not only does the system have a tendency to cut out "genius" [I dislike the word, but it'll do here], but it encourages a certain mediocrity amongst all the students. Not only does it fail to expose many other kinds of intelligence, but it also doesn't expose those who are really willing to work.
This gist of this rant, is that college doesn't do enough. This is not to say that a college degree should be ignored by employeers; I still believe employeers are statistically better advised to look at college graduates, in that they have assurances that the applicant can at least perform on SOME level, albeit not necessarily high enough. Likewise, the employeer is more likely to find a person who can read and write well if the applicant is a college educated [just not enough...and the numbers are getting worse]. Similarly, even the highly intelligent and highly motivated people can ultimately benefit from college, insofar as college is the best place to acquire certain skills in today's society [i.e., reading, writing, logic, etc.] However, just because such a person is better served at college does not mean that person is going to be found at college. There are clearly many exceptional people without any college education, and in some fields it almost seems to work against you....
...anyways, i've gotta run.
People were dropping out of college in the mid to late 70s to pursue computer careers -- people like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniack. What's new is that in those early days, people were dropping out to pursue a vision of the future of computing with little guarantee of money. These days they are dropping out to pursue guaranteed money now that the vision has been all but realized.
Seastead this.
Compare this to my high school friends who just graudated college a few months ago with a BS in Computer Science, and know C++ and Java. They can't do much in the way of web development, since they don't know PHP, Javascript, or SQL, they know essentially nothing about UNIX/Linux, and they don't have the two years of experience that I've had.
Personally, I'm happy where I am, because I got a two year jump on college people, and got to learn useful things (took classes in salesmanship and management, for example) when I was in school as well.
Ultimately, it's each person's choice, just be sure you are fully aware of the consequences of your choice.
freshman hotties
ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
I never went to college, although I have a good IT job. I learned everything I know from reading and reading...
However, experience at my job only betters me in a small part of the computer world. That's why I decided to persue college. Not because I want a better job, but because I feel a thirst for knowledge for everything related to computers. I'll probably persue a MS, or even a Ph.D
So I think college is good only if you feel a deep need for the knowledge that it offers.
And remember, college is just the starting point. It's like a 2-dimensional array: It shows you what is at positions [0][0], [1][0], [2][0], etc and it's up to you to explore the depths of that array on your own.
On the other hand, Carmack proves that you do NOT have to go to college to be a wizard.
--------------
--------------
$_='hfflbwfsbhfzp vs';s/(^.{4})(.{7 })(.+$)/$3 $2 $1/
For me computers are just a hobby. I have a buddy taking a computer science degree. He is in his third year, and he asked me to come over and install a videogame controller and set up his comptuer so he could play LAN games. Is this the type computer graduate you really want to hire... Yeah he has the "piece of paper" but it means obviously means nothing.
As a Cognitive Science major (a field that combines psychology, computer science, philosphy and linguistics) I am in the School of Arts and Sciences at my University, and not the school of Engineering, though I have taken CS courses and many of my friends are CS majors. What many many people in engineering fail to realize is that college is about making you into a well-rounded, knowledgable and generally informed person. You may loathe English, but the skills that come out of that are valuable in any profession. History, Arts, Philosphy, all have nothing to do with most people's professions, but students who take them come out of the classes exposed to not only many areas of our world, but many different ways of thinking and attacking problems. The world is NOT made up of 0's, 1's, and integrals, and somebody who has jumped into the workforce will only view the world as such.
In short, college is not only about the field. Many times, a lot of the learning comes from graduate and not undergraduate programs. The point is that you can become something more than your job, something more than simply a worker. You can become a sophisticated and individual who knows something more than his own job, his own culture, and his own mode of thinking.
of high school. I still make $250,000 a year, though. What do I do, you ask? I poop in your mouth!
Most of the comments here are saying the same thing: Go to school for the fun, not for the education. This is true.
I didn't go to university or college although I was going to go before I got hired where I am. My dad nearly disowned me but I am making a very nice living (not superrich, but I don't have to worry too much about money) with my young family now. If I'd gone to uni I'd just be getting out now and getting started, possibly $30-50k in debt from school loans if I didn't get into co-op.
Some things I miss about not going to university/college: friends. Most of my friends went that route. I do keep in touch, we party and stuff but at the same time, I know I'm an outsider in most of their circles. I also missed taking courses just for the hell of it, learning things that I normally wouldn't learn and a lot of social interaction with people my age.
Things I don't miss: bar crawls, school, paying for books, not having money/car/family and again, school. I dropped out of my senior (Grade 13 in Ontario) year twice because I just couldn't take school anymore. I was grabbing some extra credits before I ploughed off into university and just started hating it more and more and more until I just walked out of my physics class one day.
Don't get me wrong. I love learning, and I loved physics and calculus (the courses I was taking that fateful semester). I just couldn't stand school.
So what should you do? Weigh your options carefully. If you've got a lot of friends near you going to university/college, make sure you keep in close contact so you don't "lose your age". For the first while I was surrounded by people 15 years my senior, but that's better now. :-) Having a family early is a big plus for me (I'll be 45 and my 3-4 kids will (hopefully) be off to college/uni/working!) as I've got the energy now to pump into work, family and work. I won't be able to do that when I'm 35.
Finally, I love what I'm doing. I knew what I wanted to do ever since I was a young'un. I didn't need the "wide exposure to everything" that college/university gives you. If you don't know what you're doing, perhaps working a shit job and taking a few courses on the side is a better idea than blowing 30-40k to find out. You can always switch careers.
I think that's enough advice-giving for one post, sonny. :-)
I'm going through this issue right now. A friend of mine and I started off in the same boat a couple years ago. Neither of us knew a thing except how to be a Win95 Power User (laugh, I do now :). I was working full time at a gas station and tired of the BS associated with that. I bought us a book that came with a copy of Slackware 3.2 and we went from there. :) :P). I decided that school was not for me and left. After I was done with that, he started work at a starting position in an ISP. He's been there around a year and is now one of their system administrators. I took a year and a half break from college for financial reasons and have now started up again this semester. I'm not taking any CS classes, I'm stuck wading through other requirements. :)
Amazingly enough, we never touched the newsgroups or IRC channels. We learned almost entirely from man-pages, that book, and online docs. After awhile we set up a network with primitive firewalling (which got much improved as time went on) and did IP Masqing for another Linux box and various Win boxen. By this point we were quite competent users of Linux and as administrators we could manage to keep things running fairly well in an undemanding environment. Now on to the interesting part.
At that point, I left for school. I took a semester, they taught me basic Java (Yay... how... useful
Where we're at is pretty simple. He's a leg up on me by a significant amount in a lot of practical issues. I know enough Java to write stuff to the screen. He knows some C and a bunch of system and configuration goo, as well as a fair amount of Solaris. I have to scrape to get a tech job while he currently has some options should he need to leave where he's at. Obviously in the short run, it kinda looks like I should have gotten a job instead of playing around with school. But I don't have a degree yet, so we'll see what happens in a few years. If this really is an annual column, I'll update the story next year.
Oh, I do want to add a couple quick personal viewpoints on this. I think that where you go is at least as important as going or not. It's terribly easy to get dragged into a place that wants to teach you a few good things and a bunch of crap 'n chuck you out the window. Look for someplace that hits heavy on the theory. It may seem silly but that's the stuff you're really there for. Any fool can pick up "C for Dummies" and figure out how to print crap to the screen. Going from a complete lack of what php3 was to knowing how to make a shopping cart with it took all of an afternoon for me. These are not the things that job security is made of. Stick through the boring stuff, twiddle your thumbs while they dumb down the material so anyone can get through it, and do your serious explorations on your own, after they've equipped you with the basics.
When I was bored of learning Java, I looked up the political mess surrounding it and decided it was too likely to be a dead end for me. I also manually updated a libc5 system to glibc2 and learned a lot as I fixed the things that broke.
I'm also mildly disappointed at the way this issue is being tossed about. At the risk of over generalizing and being guilty of the same thing I'm accusing others of doing, I'll say that Slashdot is the last place I'd have expected to find people expounding upon the virtues of one "cookie cutter" solution over another. Nothing is right for everyone and few things are even right for most people. I don't think either theoretical or practical knowledge are terribly useful all on their own. Theory aids in innovation and practicality gets things done. I'm going back to school because I've already learned a lot on my own and now I want to complete the picture and become well rounded.
College is not about acquiring job skills, people. It's about learning how to think and how to learn.
I was tempted to skip graduate school for a well-paying job, but I stayed with it. Boy, am I glad I did! There's a lot more to a good career than a paycheck, and the more education you have, the more options for fun work you get.
I think College is Important, but if you get a good job where you can gain alot of experience, by all means, go for it. Just go to school part time. just my .02
There are some things that you'll never learn at work. Teachinh the latest ADO/COM/CORBA stuff is not the responsability of the university. They have to teach basics principle that will remain true regardless of technology (think of digital analysis VS. VLSI/FPGA/CPLD implementations). Responsability, ethic, professionalism (software industry is lacking in this area) are not taught at the job. Like one guy said, if you skip college, you'll end up being a low-class code-monkey that will never get into higher responsability position.
For example, if you want to get involoved in WBT, CBT, CBI, WBI, CAI, WAI, etc. you'll want to know a bit about instructional psychology, cognitive science, educational technology, etc. Those are fields that you are unlikely to pick up on your own. You also wont be able to pick them up without first having a BA/BS in another field since almost all (and as far as I know, all) instructional psychology programs are graduate programs (i.e., M.S., Ph.D).
There are sadly two camps in the IT/Development arena. Those who just don't see the point in theory and those who think that "practical issues" are below them. This is really unfortunate because the best in the field have figured out how to meld together both of them.
A degree in CS offers a lot to both SysAdmins and to future developers. A good school should not only teach *why* things are the way they are, but also give students the change to do simpler projects in many areas so they get a feel for all of their choices. Typical trade schools like DeVry are so hell-bent on showing the waste in a four year program that they don't do things like teach big-O notation and its significance in understanding algorithims. This example is particularly interesting given the large number of Perl hackers we've seen lately that don't have a formal CS background who don't see the pitfalls in their own designs as they scale up. ("Why are embedded for loops a bad thing?")
Finally, you'll find that unless you are exceptionally bright (and I think there are very few of those people) you'll get a bigger jump in salary by taking the four years to get a degree than if you try to work up the chain. Women especially will have a easier time breaking into the "old boys network" with a degree in hand. Being able to talk tech both at a practical level as well as a theoretical level means being able to put a guy in his place if he starts trying the "let me help you, oh poor uncapable woman" thing. My wife has experienced this first hand and as a result is now going back to school to finish her degree.
Oh yes, CERTIFICATIONS DON'T COUNT AS A REPLACEMENT TO A FOUR YEAR PROGRAM. See today's Dilbert for further discussion on the matter.
...there is no reason at all to pursue a degree in IT or Computer Science any more, at least if the program I went through is any indication. We were only barely taught C/C++; the same with Java; there was no course for VB. The Unix work was introductory and sparse, and the only classes that taught any kind of "Web design" did not count for credit if you were a Comp. Sci. major.
In the light of this kind of attitude (the only reason to get a B.S. in Comp. Sci. is to go to Graduate School), I can understand why more and more people are trying to forego the degree and jump straight into the IT industry.
Also, the proliferation of applications that teach you how to program in C/C++, Java, VB, etc. are growing. It is much easier to learn this stuff on your own, at least for the early parts, and then get a job where they train you in the rest. Frankly, I think that most colleges and universities need to update their curricula and teach what needs to be taught instead of class after class of "useless" theory. (It's useless in the sense that if you're not going for a Ph.D., you'll never use most of this stuff after you get out of college.)
Kierthos
Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
Don't let school get in the way of your education - I think Albert E. said that.
College use to be about education and self-improvement, but now sometimes it seems that all it is about is graduating people with a piece of paper.
I did the college thing for two (2) straight terms (Fall, Spring, Fall, Spring) and then realized that what I was learning I was already learning at my job. So I cut back on classes and ultimately took a job making more money than both of my parents combined (both of which have college degrees). There are somethings I think you can learn more easily in college, but IT related stuff isn't one of them. If I wanted to be a philospher, sure, I'd go to college. But why spend the massive amounts of money so you can then try to pay back loans? It doesn't seem logically.
Just my $.02 worth.
-- bearclaw
I think that the vast majority of techies you see in the industry without a degree are because they are genuinely smart people. You never hear about the stupid tech who dropped out of college and is now working at McDonalds, because the fact that he's working at McDonalds removes him from the tech industry.
But you don't have to go to college right now. It will still be there in five years. College will be a lot more fun if you've got some of money, and you will get a lot more out of things like arts & humanities courses if you bring a little maturity to them. ( I think money & experience is what made the G.I.-Bill college students so successful.)
I've been a software development manager for about 6 years now. In my experience, it is generally the case that the *best* people to hire are people who love IT and who taught themselves how to do things with minimal formal education. The *worst* people to hire have a Ph.D. from an Ivy-league school.
Ex-auto-mechanics, ex-army-soldiers, and ex-secretaries have worked out fantastically. IF, of course, these people have the right personal attitude: it helps if you're kind of a bastard, if you're used to having to fight your way through life, then you'll do great as a Unix sysadmin. Depending on the person's ability to work with subtle abstractions, they may also do very well as programmers, though it usually takes 1-2 years of experience to come up to speed.
People with a 4.0 GPA from an Ivy-League school? I'm sorry, but forget it! These are typically people who are not used to actually solving real problems. They know why the problem can't be solved. They spend endless days thinking about why it can't be solved while the ex-truck-driver keeps trying things and refuses to that that god-damned computer get the better of him!
Of course, if it's a senior software architect (who may do more thinking and designing than coding), that's a different game. But typically I need only a few Alpha-Thinkers, whereas I need many more Sysadmins, implementers, testers, bug-fixers, porters, and small-feature-implementers.
Part of the Second American Revolution!
Right on.
I was educated very little by the University I attended. Oh, sure, I *learned* lots -- organic chemistry, political history, all sorts of shit -- but those were just boring facts, that I could have picked up on my own.
What *educated* me was life on campus.
Living in a dormitory with forty people, most of whom I'd never ordinarily wish to eat dinner with, let alone live with.
Living in a community of 30 000 people of varied backgrounds, from all over the country. Completely different folk than in my hometown, or any town I've ever lived in. People who were there to expand their education, not to hold down a job and raise a family.
Working in teams with people who are learning on-the-fly. People who are excited and aggressive about defending their ideas in the face of competing ideas. Who introduce ideas that are completely off-the-map -- but end up being relevent, and were available only because they took an obscure course and happened to put two-and-two together.
Do I get educated in "real life"? Sure. But it's not as cutting-edge. Everyone's more grown-up about it: we've all come to realize that maybe we don't know everything already, so we listen more easily and don't get so pumped about forcing others to understand and accept us.
It's a different pace, now. It's not a highly accelerated education curve. And there is definitely not the variety: most of us are just trying to keep ahead of taxes, children and skyrocketing gas prices.
--
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
In my school, CS majors typically learn some or all of the following things
1. Hack OS kernels, write device drivers, filesystem drivers
2. Object oriented programming
3. Algorithms
4. Hack programming language interpreters/compilers
5. Underying math
6. internal organization and design of computers, deisgn simple electoronic devices for their pet projects.
7. computer graphics
Now, I doubt that many self-taught "techies" in the industry even know any of that. A monkey can learn how to admin a unix or NT box too, you know it. Plus they have missed all the fun of spending some time of their life in a university setting.
I remember having the college/work conversation (argument) with my parents my senior year of high school. I was sure that I wanted to be a theater techie. I was even building a fairly good name for myself doing it. (I was starting to get union overhire calls.)
I ended up going to college. I was majoring in Drama Production and I hated it. I almost dropped out. But I convinced my advisor to let me take some courses outside the drama department. (CMU's drama department does not give you much flexibility or recognize outside interests) Anyways I started taking ECE and CS classes. After a bit I changed majors to ECE and started working in robotics. I even did something that I thought I would never do, I got my Master Degree.
If I had not gone to college I would be hating life in a dark theater making peanuts. Now I have met some of the most brilant people I have ever known and I can have great conversation with them. I look at the world in a whole different way. Furthermore I have in depth conversations with people who have been in the computer field longer than I have been alive because I know the theory and the ways of thinking behind what they do. If you are working on the cutting edge you are going to have to be learning new technology. With a college degree you can understand it without a '{string} for Dummies' book. Finally the is just as much smoke and mirrors in research robotics and in the theater, the technology is just much much cooler.
BTW My dad dropped out of college after a year and makes a killing in the computer industry. Just show there is never a correct answer to a question like this.
crap crap crap...
If you're going to work, you're there to work and do *your* job. It's good business.
What's NOT good business?
Hiring & paying more for someone who isn't going to be fully utilized. It's like hiring a sysadmin who knows Unix, NT, Netware, Os/2, and 10 other OS's just to Watch a single NT box.
YES, before I shoot myself in the foot here, it is NICE to have well-rounded individuals. BUT, in the tech field such examples you stated are overkill for at *least* --and I stress-- AT LEAST 50% of the hi-end tech jobs that are available.
I didn't go to college, and I've sucessfully run two business and worked my way up the tech ladder. I'm one stage under management and doubled my salary every two years.
I haven't stopped learning either. I know unix, NT, netware, every flavor of Windows, VB, ASP, Java, and I'm just now learning Delphi.
Face it, college is for doctors. The technology field works far too quickly for such "legacy" educational systems like colleges to be effective. If you speak of necessary "practices" & "theories" that need to be understood, keep in mind that most standard practices & procedures CHANGE in the tech field as fast as the industry moves.
Hands-on training with the products you'll be using and want to know about is the way to go. If you want to learn about philosphy, go to a library.
-brain
"I can only show you Linux... you're the one who has to read the man pages."
(Anybody here go to Grinnell College?)
---
I spent most of the last 10 years in the video games industry, my responsibilities usually revolved around lead programmer of tools group, lead (3D) engine developer, and more recently lead developer of cross platform distributed systems for massively multiplayer. I'm currently ranked a "Programmer 4" in the industry HR vernacular, which is as senior as I can get without putting on a manager hat as CTO.
During this time I've participated in the hiring (and firing) of a decent number or people, and I've seen many more come and go. One of the more interesting things I've noticed over the years is the statistical signifigance of an observed inverse correlation between college experience and raw creativity for complex problems.
In the games industry, understanding the implementation and optimization details of Knuth-Morris-Pratt is useful only in the abstract. You must then understand how and where it is applicable, and know when to use Quicksort or merging presorted lists instead.
The level of design creativity needed, at larger and more complex system levels, quickly surpasses the mindset of most college trained programmers I've seen. They seem incredibly well prepared to calculate a good O() factor for an algorithm, but lack the more important ability to understand how to balance several algorithms whose O() terms are interdependant.
Most game programmers today are not "hackers" in the old school sense. Yes, the idiotic schedules force most to skip the formal prototyping stage (the prototype becomes the game almost invariably), but the design complexity and elegance signifigantly exceeds that of most catagories of software in use today. (This is an educated opinion, I've also worked in CAD/CAD/CAE, embedded systems, distributed networks, and avionics before getting bored and coming to games.)
Bottom line, your assertions about the ignorance of non-college educated programmers is true only for some subset of self-educated programmers. Yes, I would agree that many web site coders fit your description. But I know for a fact that in games, one of the most demanding programming carreers, _most_ of us (including myself) do not have degrees. Also, the more senior level the programmer, the less likely they are to have one.
By the way, most of the better game programmers continue to spend 1-4 hours a _day_ on pure and applied research. (What percentage of CS grads can say this?) My personal CS library is better than the community college I grew up near. Most of us continue to read confrence proceedings, and if we were patenting our innovations most of the senior programmers I know would have hundreds of actually non-obvious and unique inventions filed. (Instead we have an unwritten code that lets us continually steal them from each other once we see them on screen from a legitimately obtained demo.)
You would be surprised how well rounded some of us uneducated programmers are.
"New Haven, CT - In one of the more controversial commencement addresses in memory, Oracle CEO and college dropout Larry Ellison told Yale's Class of 2000 they were "losers" whose hard-won diplomas would never propel them into the ranks of the super rich.
The evangelical Ellison, noting that college dropouts Bill Gates, Paul Allen, and Michael Dell were, like himself, on Forbes' recent top 10 list of billionaires, urged freshmen and sophomores at the ceremony to 'drop out and start up,' and added that the undereducated Yale security guards who ushered him off stage probably had a better shot at uber-wealth than graduating seniors."
If you disagree then it must be overrated, redundant or trolling.
As I was growing up, I was raised with the belief that "things were no longer what they were like in (my parents') days. Gone were the days when you could get a "trade" education and be relatively successful.
Now things have been flipped once again. I'm two semesters away from graduating with a BA in History, and I am currently taking the semester off to get my MCSE*. Looking at the wages I will be able to make with a MCSE certification as opposed to what I could make in the field with my current degree path, or even a CS degree path, it's a no-brainer to me.
Yes, potential employers will still be looking for degrees on your resume, but they will no longer hold the weight that they once did. Anymore, especially in the tech field, a college degree states that you can stick with something for four or more years. That's all.
I'm 21, it's becoming increasingly difficult to see the reason to continue with my college education (aside from the fact that I've put this much time and money into it already, so I may as well finish it) when I can get a few certifications and be making close to, if not in excess of, a six figure salary.
The one thing that college is doing for me is it is allowing me to make contacts. However, training courses allow me to do the same thing and with people that are in my field as well. Here's the scenario: I will be spending two weeks at a training facility, at the end of those two weeks, I should be coming home with my MCSE cert in hand. At the end of four (if you don't fail any classes or take any below average credit semesters) I have a BA in History or the degree of my choice. And then what? Scrounge around for a job, when I can spend two weeks and be headhunted across the US. Or start my own firm.
Where's the discussion?
--Lise
* IMO, just a piece of paper, but that piece of paper opens a lot of doors and will make me a lot of money.
pronoblem
Actually, yes I did. Honours english distinction.
I also manage my time. I have better things to do with my time then to search through a one-off slashdot comment for my typos. I also have better things to do with my time then to defend myself against an OT comment from an AC.
----
Remove the rocks from my head to send email
On the whole, I find that I prefer Slashdot posts to twitter ones because I don't get limited to 140 chars before
...but theory gronks really need the atmosphere, I think. I was always an OK-fair programmer, but a better-than average algorithms guy. I doubt I could have easily developed that skill outside of an academic environment. So I think it depends on your style: if you are king of the architecture exploits, go to university if you like, but don't ignore valuable hacking time. If you're the next Knuth-in-training, though, hitting the books might be very adviseable.
-TBHiX-
How to solve the travelling salseman problem in n^2 time on the number of cities:
1. Salesman finds and travels shortest path between any two cities. (Time: O(n) )
2. Salesman is inevitably shot by annoyed customer with shotgun. (Time: O (1) )
3. All other paths are marked unreachable. (Time: O( n^2 ) )
I am like a lot of you slashdotters. I am very smart, was in honors classes and the "gifted" program in high school, National Honor Society, but I got mostly C's (thanks to all the teachers who didn't want to fail me, knowing that I'd Ace all the tests the 2nd time around, just like the first, but still wouldn't turn in homework!) But by the time I was a senior, I was fed up! I guess I also discovered LSD and read lots of Robert Anton Wilson and just wanted to get out and live some life!
So I traveled the USA for two years with just the stuff on my back. It was the best thing I ever did for myself. I only had $1,200 (which only lasted me about 5 months!). And I learned more then than college ever will teach me.
Since then, I've been to 114 units of college (CIS major at Humboldt State Univ in California) and then dropped out! I'm Network Admin for a ".com" making good money. And guess what! I started out answering tech calls, just like everyone and because I was smart (and showed it) I got better and better jobs.
The thing that college really teaches you is self-reliance. Can you make bills meet? Can you turn things in on time? Will you get too drunk before the test? School is social learning school and not much else, really. Granted, I learned more about art history in school than I would have at home, but the local JC has great teachers all for 11 bucks a unit!
And yes, I put "Extensive travel and outdoor living" on my resume. They always ask about it!
This is true, I've seen it many times. A lot of big companies around here has entire IT staffs full of clueless monkeys who have CS degrees, or even unrelated degrees - just the "piece of paper" that got them in. I suppose it shows that since you were willing/able to subject yourself to four years in one institution, you're more likely to become complacent in theirs.
It's a real tough call. When the job market gets lean, as it will in a few years (as the IT trolls lured into the field by big bucks, and not the love of computers, start dropping like flies; and a new crop of grads enters an already bloated workforce) cashing in those stock options may not be a bad idea at all. Unless of course your options went belly up with the bulk of the dying dot-coms...
My suggestion, as an edumacated IT person: Get a job but go to school, at least part time. Keep going down the educational path, even if you have to crawl. And make sure that you consider employers who reimburse you for educational expenses more seriously than those who shower you with over-inflated stocks and leased cars. Those employers are investing in you, not tying you to their own success and binding you to their risks.
Stocks and cars will dry up quick when the economy turns south, but what you've learned is yours for life.
The REAL jabber has the /. user id: 13196
The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
What you do today will cost you a day of your life
It's not that obvious of course, it depends on the person. To me programming and system architecture are an art. I spend a lot of time working with clients trying to find the right software architecture to match their organizational needs, or trying to match their security requirements to what their corporate culture will bear. From that standpoint, I don't regret my BA in Anthropology at all. College taught me how to learn, Anthropology (and Psych) taught me about cultures and personalities. And since software is typically designed for *people*, that background is very helpful.
I've known great CS majors (my wife has a masters in CS). But with one exception, the best programmers and architects I know were dropouts or majors in completely different fields (Nuclear Physics, Philosophy...).
The key to college is learning how the world works. If you can pick up skills on your own, then don't bother with CS. If you feel more comfortable with formal learning, then by all means take it--but don't focus on it exclusively.
--
--
Just lurking, thanks!
The trend has reversed. Companies have started to recognize people for qualities OTHER than a college education. They're starting to realize that College isn't that big a deal. If you know something, who says you must have a document proving it? That's what a resume is for.
I speak from experience when I say a College education isn't a big necessity. I got a really good job in Information Security. My recorded education? High School Diploma. Sure, I went to college for a little while - but I went to college for "Interactive Media", meaning 3D Graphics, Design, and animation. I quit before I got any kind of degree, and got a good job in a totally different field doing something I really enjoy.
My classes in College didn't help me, except in the fact that I learned some things that I didn't know before. I learned 3D Studio MAX, Macromedia Director, Flash, and lots of other cool stuff. What do those have to do with my current work? Nothing. My company hired me based on my knowledge presented in my resume and during my interview, and my personality.
I'm not disuading anyone from GOING to college, mind you. In fact, I recommend it if you know what you want to do with life. But I decided late that Interactive Media wasn't what I wanted to do, and I wasted that tuition money to do it. And on top of that, I got a job that I enjoy - without college to back it up.
If you can swing that, go for it. Tuition rates aren't going anywhere but up, so if you can save that money - do it.
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
>The local college teaches PASCAL as a modern
>programming language. Hah!
There's no obligation to get a degree in CS. Get a degree in Physics, or History, or whatever you find particularly interesting. If you feel that the CS curiculum won't do anything for you, then learn something else.
-Dean
So? You can be canned for just about any reason even if you DON'T lie on the application. Just be smart and cover your tracks is all.
Yeah, living a lie is always very rewarding.
I like being able to say I have a degree in Computer Systems Engineering. You get taken seriously immediately. I also think college was great because it teaches you how to think. It also teaches you how to solve problems the right way, rather than the quickest or easiest way. Not to say I went to class or anything, but I did the work, and it was worth it in retrospect.
Chris
On this point it is important to differentiate between training and education.
While you can certainly go out and get training for the tech skill du jour in a few weeks and get yourself a job, you should not delude yourself into thinking that you now have an education.
Training is limited learning on how to perform a specific task.
Education is general knowledge of many subjects, developed skills in the processes of learning, thought, and reasoning. Understanding of self, and of the cultural and historical contexts in which we exist.
And education in a particular discipline, such as computer science, implies and a broad understanding of its fields of study, underlying principles, and the important figures and stages in the history of its development. And for something like programming, which is part science, part art, it implies a certain level of skill and an understanding of quality and the process by which quality is achieved.
Of course, there is significant value to an education beyond how it applies to your job. But let's focus for the moment on how it affects your value as an employee.
Many companies hire (or contract) to fill an immediate need for a specific skill. But that's not how all jobs are filled.
In my hiring experience I've usually been trying to build a talented team, with breath and depth of knowledge and skill, that can not only use the current technology but can adapt to the next one and the one after that.
People who have a good education in computer science inevitably become more valuable, as they can foresee problems before they emerge, understand how different technologies interact, and quickly learn and assess new technologies through a more thorough understanding of the principles that make them possible. Hence they are more valuable today and much more likely to stay valuable in the long run.
So, if you can, by all means get a real education.
That said, a university is not the only place to get an education. But it is certainly the easiest one. Many people succeed in educating themselves independently, but it is not an easy thing to do.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
I'm a computer science flunk-out, after 3 years. Good CS marks, poor math marks. I moved into Economics, but my job is still as a software consultant & trainer.
By and large, my experiences goes like so:
- You only use the theory of CS if you love computers.
- Most expert programmers are keen on a balance between theory and practice
- The majority of college graduates really don't remember the theory they were taught because they didn't think they needed it (remember -- you need a LOVE of the subject to remember it).
This pretty much applies to most things -- a college degree is just a piece of paper unless you love the topic. Many college grads don't like computers, they just really want the money.
As a software consultant and teacher to recent college graduates, I can tell you that I've seen a disturbingly high number of college gradatues with *NO* knowledge of networking, multithreading, or using an API. The brain wiring just isn't there. There's a real bell curve out there... and the majority of graduates come out without any major skills.
It's frustrating for me because I never finished my CS degree and I'm teaching them topics that they should be teaching me.
So please, if you're going to go to college, USE IT. If you're there for just the money, please do this industry a favour and move elsewhere. Too many people's careers are stuck cleaning up your shitty code.
-Stu
Does your college allow you to acquire a minor in a field of study? If so, then I'd suggest turning your three years of CompSci classes into a minor in CompSci, and then do something completely unrelated for your major--something that you enjoy. A good friend of mine had a similar problem with his physics major, and he ended up doing a physics-Russian literature double major. (He then rediscovered a passion for physics, and was a grad student in a top physics program the last I talked to him). Another friend of mine combined a comparative religion, Buddhist studies major with a mathematics minor; he's now a biophysicist. My roommate from college took his physics major/math & cs minor and went to law school to study patent and intellectual property law. You have many possibilities available to you, and I applaud your honesty in saying "Is this really what I want?" Better now, when you can do something about your situation, than suffer a mid-life crisis in a dead end job fifteen years down the road, with mortgage payments and children to put through college curtailing your options. Keeping the CS as a minor (if it is possible) may placate the parents while you find something fun and personally redeeming to pursue.
And whats wrong with a JC? I am the same type as these kids in the article. I actually started at 15, when I tested out of High School, moved out of my parents house, and got a job at an ISP.. Now I'm making almost 80k/year. The whole time I was taking junior college courses! Theres no other place where you can learn photography, radio broadcasting, television broadcasting, art, and geology, for couple of hundred bucks a semester! its wonderful. You get to meet all different kinds of people.. not everyone has lots of money behind them, and you get to experience different things. I'm not saying its BETTER than a university.. but they're certainly not worth shuddering about. Yeah, you'll find plenty of morons taking high school classes.. but if you take the right classes you'll also find an eclectic group of people, who can help expand your horizons, and who's horizons YOU can expand. I will continue taking JC courses my whole life. and be proud of it the whole time :)
-- "I feel a strong disturbance in the for.."\*Segmentation Fault*\ (core dumped)
Sure, you can teach yourself to code by sitting in
front of a computer and hammering on a compiler
until you figure out how to do it right. You don't
need to go to college for that.
To learn the art of engineering (I'm not talking
about the skills you need to be an engineer, but
the art of engineering-- why it's done this way or
that way, and how tell when another new way is
better), you need a teacher with experience.
Universities often do a pretty decent job of
matching students with teachers and constructing
courses of study.
If the kids today want to skip college and go right
into coding, I guess there are employers who will
be happy to hire them. I just hope it turns out
that those employers still need engineers too.
jhw
The problem in my particular case was that they let the design people have too much say in what the major should be and didn't let the CS people have much of a say at all. But none of this was obvious until you took the courses. (one of the problems of being a batch of "test students" feeling out the new major).
Believe me if I had known what the major was goign to turn out like I would have just majored in Business or some other easy to coast through BS major and taken my design and CS courses as electives. As it turned out I got more out of my elective courses than I ever could have from the required courses for my chosen major.
Currently they're still teaching "Multimedia Design" from a design perspective with no technical grounding, but hyping it to prospective students as a technically orientated major. I guess in the end the best lesson I got out of the whole thing was don't EVER trust the hype. Espically the part about "We'll help you mold the major to be what you want it to be".
And yes this was a well respected 4 year college who I'm keeping nameless because as much as I'm dissapointed in what they did I don't want to go dragging their name around in the mud. I knew plenty of people in my major who were happy being deluded into thinking they were being prepared to go out and do what I'm doing now. Of course if any of them came to me for a job based on no experience but with outstanding grades and a degree I'd probably laugh.
--- Juggle juggle@hitesman.com
I'm sorry, I don't see what's so big about these few kids getting into the industry at 18 and 20 or whatever without a college degree. I've been in the industry for four years now and I'm 19. I don't think it's a big deal. I graduated early and got a job. Heck, even had a kid. I wanted to grow up early. I was in a hurry I guess. So now here I am at a Multinational Corp. as an Assist. LAN Admin, 19, with a 2 year old. And something feels wrong. All my friends from School are in college having the time of their lives, learning stuff I can barely fathom. And I'm doing something I'll prolly be doing for the rest of my life. Working. Woo fun! Sure I enjoy my job, and I VERY much enjoy the money, but there's SO much more to life than just working and getting money.
So if anyone is reading this that is in the industry at a young age and think that they can't learn anything in College, Consider taking something besides CS. Take Art, Management, or anything that interests you. Become a better rounded person. In college you'll develop personal skills you can't learn anywhere else. You learn work ethics you'll truely need in the future. And what happens when you guys are 35 and someone has 4 years less experience, but a BS to account for that time? Suddenly the edge you have being young and all that dulls and you get passed up for that management job for someone "more qualified". Take it from someone who's in the same shoes as you guys, these things are important and will always be important. Most of the time it's not the stuff you learn in college as much as from college if that makes sense, and I'm gonna enroll soon as my projects are done at my current job...
Good luck kids,
Sotaku
college was good for me. i learned a lot about people, and how much they suck (important stuff for the real world).
:)
also, i got my degree in microbiology. strangely enough, the mental process i learned for that has helped me TREMENDOUSLY as a unix admin. and i got to play with bacteria n stuff
then again, i'm a girl who doesn't follow the norm: i *like* math and science. *shrug*
For example, the state schools in Texas are very cheap for residents. If you could stick it out a year there you could pay around 5k a year going full time. Don't like Texas? It isn't the only state where you can find affordable education.
I'm from Vermont and the price of schools in the North East is high. I simply moved much further south and west. It really comes down to what sacrifices you are willing to make. I believe that anyone can afford a college education if they are willing to move. Some people may want to stay near where they grew up but that is a lame duck excuse in my book.
Molog
So Linus, what are we doing tonight?
So Linus, what are we going to do tonight?
The same thing we do every night Tux. Try to take over the world!
That, my friends, is how news are manufactured just to stir up controversial issues and sell more copies. I wonder how many /.ers registered today in the NYT web site. The chief NYT editor should go to bed happy today.
Why does nobody see the tyrannical nature of the educational system that we have today?
We were designed to learn, that is human nature. As very small kids we learned to use an amazingly complex thing called language all by ourselves.
Unfortunately, thats about when were were sat down in front of blackboards and forced to learn as a small stream of knowledge slowly trickled back to use from the front of the room. Over hours and hours and years and years we were conditioned to ONLY learn in that manner, or were were convinced that you have to sit in a classroom to learn, or as I call them "education shows". If you want proof of what I have said so far, think about all the people that have to take a class to use something like microsoft word. These are people that learned one or more languages ON THEIR OWN and now they cant even imagine learning something as profound as a word processor without a "education show"
Dont get me wrong, I believe an apprenticeship type situation is a very effective learning environment, and except for self education, probably the oldest and most effective learning situation there is.
Now things reach critical mass... the smartest people feel they need to go to higher education, and because of this, experts in fields have a higher education, except for a few mavericks. Now it appears that to excel in a field you have to get an education, especially from an expensive education show. Who will speakout against this tyranny? Will it be the trusted experts in the field of education?!?
We need to stop the tyranny and discrimination. We must unite to free education. Email me and let us begin the revolution!
Sneakemail is to spam filters what an ounce of prevention is to a pound of cure.
You're right, you wouldn't work for him very long. He'd fire your ass in short order. So would I.
--- http://foo.ca
Internet and the end of the cold war probably means that the next 50 years will be more dynamic, with lines of business rising and falling, and markets and ways of doing business changing a bit all the time. The 90'ties was only a fore-warning of what's to come in dynamic markets.
To succed under such circumstances you will need the ability to adapt to changing job content, and it's quite likely that you will have to switch fields a couple of times during your working life.
Being adaptable requires a broad and at the same time deep understanding of a lot more than a line of business, and it requires the ability to learn more by yourself.
Unfortunately there's a current trend at universities to switch into a more job focused curriculum, ie. they are creating the perfect curriculum for ~1950-1985.
I left university (was heading for a MS EE/CS) to pursue programming for this very reason.
A lot of the curriculum was hands on programming or electronics design.
My job as a senior programmer requires a lot of technical knowledge of course, but it requires at least as much social skill, understanding of business, ability to manouvre in the political enviroment of the workplace and a lot more, none of which was part of the university curriculum.
10 years from now my job will be very different from my present job, but I don't know how it will differ.
Therefore I prepare myself by aquiring some understanding of different lines of business, of cultural issues and what's going on in the world.
Hey all.
:P You can get away with a lot more mistakes in school than at work, too. Both social AND "work-related". It's nice to learn the ups and downs in a semi-protected environment.
:-) If you are 18 or over and your parents don't claim you as a dependant, you are financially your own person. That should get you at least SOME financial aid. Work for the food service and you get to eat free. Lots of stuff like that available.
This is probably going to be left unmoderated at the bottom of the pile, but I figured it is worth letting fly anyway.
I have a college education, and I consider myself darn lucky that my father thought it best to provide me with it. I'll make that clear: I didn't pay for the education myself. Fortunately, I also found it worth my while to do a co-op (kind of a long internship, stretches a 4-year program into 5) so I would get some experience while I was at this learning thing.
I found college to be one of the best times I've had! At no other point in time will I be so surrounded by such a group of people my age, with the informalities of Dorm Life and the soft landings provided by the School Social Bubble. Sure, it is a microcosm unto itself, and doesn't lend itself too much to comparisons about what it is like in "the real world". That's kind of the point. That whole "walk before you run" thing has merit, even in such things as socializing and dealing with other people. College is great for learning that stuff. If you royally screw up, next year there will be quite a few people who never knew you before and you can effectively try again. Heck, even moving to another Dorm will give you that opportunity!
Yes I'm saying a lot about Dorms here. If you go to school in the "normal" age range, please spend at least a year or two in the dorms. It will most likely be the only time in your life you will ever be able to just walk down the hall, find someone's door open with cool music coming out, knock, walk in and start chatting. Made a lot of friends that way, miss that way of life sometimes, too.
I've been out in the "Real World" now for over 2 years. Jobs are NOT as flexible as classes as far as working a social life around them. Especially when you have a long commute.
As for the technical side of things, well, I figure college classes are more about "learning how to learn" than trying to memorize how to do things. Personally, I learned how to use resources really well, lots of constants, tables, etc, to look up in Engineering. (I've a BSME)
I guess it's time to summarize. Go to college, it's much more than just learning how to make a buck. My Dad wishes he'd spent more time goofing off and taking "fun" classes than just taking classes he could "make a buck" off of. That's partly why he sent me to school. Can't afford it? BS! One of my closest friends in school worked her way through. She had loans, sure, but she worked hard and had a 4.0 GPA last time I talked to her about it. I think she kept it through graduation, not sure. She also partied pretty darn hard!
It's also nice to have that piece of paper called a Diploma if only because a lot of HR departments won't even look at you if you don't have one. Call it bias, but it's there, and you'll get a lot more out of college than just that piece of paper.
*sigh* It is true that college is not for everyone, but I'd say give it a try. If you don't like it, go to work for a few years and try it again.
Yes and no.
I have a friend who began programing in the mid-80's when 1 MB of Ram Cost 1 Million Dollars! (yup!) he dropped out of classes at a big university and worked on and off contract jobs for almost everybody (from M$ to who-knows) and made some decent change along the way.
16 years later he decides to go back to school,where I meet him and he eventually graduditates
Moral of the Story:
you can do both if you really want to, nobody can help you finish college or keep a job. You have either the ability to do it or fail. That's Lif.
I've always considered college/university a waste of time.
You learn to read and write in High School (unless US schools are really as pathetic as I've been told.)
Studying for four years doesn't add any real appeal to you, as by the time you leave, new technology has generally passed what you've learnt in college. Most of the colleges I've seen are already far behind technology-wise (this may however be limited to Australian/NZ Universities.)
What most employers are interested in is your experience, and then certifications. The only places I've ever seen jobs requiring Degrees are Colleges themselves, and sometimes Government.
I had the choice of going to college or joining the work force last fall. In high school I worked as a well paid (for a high school student) programmer for two years, and at the beginning of my senior year I had to make the decision on whether I would go to college or not. My parents and I could afford it, and if we couldn't we would find a way.
:). I will (hopefully) come out of school with an incredibly well rounded education. I get all the higher level cs classes, but get to skip ones that I already know, or don't want to take. Then I get the classes I would never normally see from the arts to politics.
I visited a ton of colleges, spoke with relatives, spoke with my bosses and talked it over with my parents. Everyone agreed college would help me in the long run, but they all also knew that I would do well, and make a ton of money, working on the web now. There is no way to make this decision. If you have lots of connections, can get a job that will keep you happy and on top of things, it might be wise to skip school. Since I couldn't make a decision on where I wanted to go, I applied to a lot of schools.
The time it took for schools to get back to me gave me even more time to think over what decision I would make. I spent more time in the computer field, dealing with the industry and seeing the quality of my coworkers, and made my decision.
I probably made the last choice people would have expected. I did decide to go to college, but I decided not to go to a good cs school like CMU or Cornell ( yeah I got in) Instead I am a B.A. in computer science. I'm in a school that has a strong department, but it's small compared to the rest of the world. The B.A. means that I can major in cs, business and law all in four years (I have a good deal of transfer credits too, don't get me wrong
Who knows if I decided on the right school, I can always transfer. And if I don't like college, I can always drop out. I'll be in debt for a long time, but that's why we get paid so much, right?
JustinC