Sony Intentionally Crashes Customers' Computers

Uttles writes "According to Yahoo!, Celine Dion's latest CD will not play in computer drives. In fact: 'Should the consumer try to play Dion's CD on a PC or Macintosh, the computer likely will crash.' How is this legal?" Since Sony admits that their product is designed to cause damage to your computer system, almost anyone would likely have a good lawsuit against them. Attention Celine Dion and all musicians: crashing your fans' computers is not a good business practice. No matter what your agent says.

Comments

Celine Dion, eh?

[Roosey]

Are you sure it's the protection? I would say that the computers they tested it on had good taste, that's all. :)

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Salamander]

That can't be it. A computer with good taste would eject the disk immediately, without even thinking about playing it.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[c4tp]

Seriously, I don't think this music needs copy protection. The people who listen to it are NOT the type who pirate a lot of music, and I can't imagine more than 1 person would want the CD. But that's still no reason to crash the 12 year old girl's machine!

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[mtrupe]

Actually, I hope and pray my computer would crash fast enough, so I wouldn't have to hear the first note of her crappy "music."

And thank God Windows crashes faster than it boots up.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[negativethirsty]

...and a beowulf cluster would smash it to bits first then eject it immediately for you.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[jonnythan]

I'm a 20 year old male studying engineering.

I have ~ 15 gigs of mp3's (perhaps 3 gigs are ripped from cd's that I own).

I'm mostly into prog metal/heavy metal, but i love listening to Celine Dion. If that makes you think less of me, fine, but don't generalize too much ;)

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[JLouder]

I'm mostly into prog metal/heavy metal, but i love listening to Celine Dion. If that makes you think less of me, fine, but don't generalize too much

Yes, it actually does make me think less of you.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[BJH]

'Hi, I'm a thief, but don't let that make you think any less of me.'

Jeez...

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Wakko Warner]

A computer with good taste would eject the disk immediately, without even thinking about playing it.


...hopefully, it would do so at a high enough rate of speed (and the proper trajectory) to knock some sense into the user.

- A.P.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[jsprat]

Just so you know, Celine Dion is also revered by older women. Her demographics cross age barriers, just not the gender barrier ;)

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[ScoLgo]

Somebody please mod this up - should be at least +3: Insightful. I have about 10 gigs of music ripped to MP3 - all bought & paid for by me. I mean, c'mon you luzer. Only 3 outta 15 paid for?

Jeez... is right!

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Stackis]

You love listening to Celine Dion?

Dude what the f*&% is wrong w/you?

I think I'm going to puke

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm...A young male listening to Celine. Well, every species generates a mutant freak that can not be explained through natural selection alone. Did you grow up next to powerlines? Did Daddy mop the floors at a nuclear power plant? Or maybe you grew up in Elizabeth NJ? (...yeah! You Joisey Turnpike riders know what I'm talkin' bout!)

Sad. Very, very sad. Go treat yourself to a CD by 'X', have John Doe and Excene C. purge all that badness caused by yo' fudged up genes!

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Dave_bsr]

Um, 1) this is slashdot. 2) How much of your cd's that you paid for went to the artist? And whatever happened to the right to share what you (or perhaps someone else) paid for? Just because the RIAA SAYS it is stealing doesn't make it so. I call it "sharing" and i think piracy is just a term they brought out to make it look bad. I buy what i like, but i don't buy crap that i don't know what is on the disc, unless I know the artist is that good.

Admit it or not, the music industry made money from napster, and they are getting screwed this time around because they fought thier customers.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[BJH]

You buy music after checking it out on a P2P network, right? I'm fine with that. I do it myself. The original poster said that he has 15GB of music, of which less than one-fifth was actually bought and paid for. That's just being dishonest.

Unless I completely misunderstood you and your argument is actually that copying music and giving nothing at all to the artist is morally better than buying the music and giving something (admittedly, a small amount) to the artist. In which case, you're deluding yourself.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[macshit]

Well, you never know.

Perhaps, as a child, he spent many happy hours in front of a TV with a broken flyback transformer.

So now he gets a warm nostalgic feeling whenever he hears a high-pitched whine...

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[ArticulateArne]

I'll admit it, too, I'm a 22 year old male, programmer by trade, and I enjoy Celine. Especially on a good system, (like my friend's 5Kbuck setup), and her SACD sounds incredible. Say what you want about the lyrics, she has an awesome voice, and good engineers. My musical tastes vary widely, and she creates genuinely good music.

Sorry.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Wolfkin]

The original poster said that he has 15GB of music, of which less than one-fifth was actually bought and paid for. That's just being dishonest.

Are you saying that he's lying about owning all that music? Why would he?

Randall.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[jbn-o]

'Hi, I'm a thief, but don't let that make you think any less of me.'

Unauthorized duplication is not stealing, no matter how many people fail to recognize the difference between physical property and intangible concepts. Please don't refer to it as such. What johnnythan admitted to is illegal, but you'll lose any rational argument about copyright if you insist on talking about copyright infringement as theft of property. Siva Vaidhyanathan has written an excellent book called "Copyrights and Copywrongs" in which he explains the dangers of thinking about copyright as property law. I highly recommend it because it is easily read, concise, and very well researched.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[BJH]

Yadda yadda yadda... I know the legal difference between copyright infringement and theft, thank you very much. I'm talking about the moral implications of what he was saying.

But you sound like the type who would make a good lawyer, so you probably don't know the meaning of the word 'moral'.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[BJH]

Oh, very funny. Like you really misunderstood my comment... sure.

You people make me laugh. You go ahead and copy all the music you want, and then try and make out that you're some sort of crusader for the artists.

Bullshit.

I put you right in the same group as the RIAA - out for what you can get. Come back when you get a clue about the real world, kid.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Malcontent]

Morality has no place in America. We are a capitalist society.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Jeremi]

I know the legal difference between copyright infringement and theft,
thank you very much. I'm talking about the moral implications of what he was saying

On the other hand, morality does change and evolve over time. What was considered immoral then is considered moral now, or vice versa. I submit that with the advent of personal computers and the Internet, the moral status of not-for-profit copyright infringment needs to be revisited.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[BJH]

'Not-for-profit' is a very thin line to walk, especially when it could be argued that the person downloading the music is actually profiting thereby. I agree with not-for-profit usage of trademarks, etc., but downloading music and redistributing it isn't really the same thing. You're getting something for nothing, no matter what way you look at it.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[maxpublic]

I doubt you have any idea of what the word 'moral' means either, since you can't distinguish between the words 'theft' and 'copyright violation' either.

Max

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Kymermosst]

How about, say, theft of income? What if I just say, took an hours worth of your pay away? Suppose you make burgers for a living and your boss makes you pay out of your paycheck for every one that was stolen, and I took a few?

It may not be theft of physical property, but it is still theft, and inherently wrong. Just like if I painted a painting, and you made a copy of it without my permission. And that painting IS a physical object.

Don't try this bullshit about what is "tangible" or not. The simple fact is, the result of my thinking is MY property, and I have a right to control what happens to it, be it placing it into the public domain, or selling copies of it to make money.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Say what you want about the lyrics
Her lyrix sux!

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[rixkix]

You're getting something for nothing, no matter what way you look at it.

Just like I do with slashdot? Or Tivo? Seriously, corporations influence the laws for their own best interests and theirs ONLY. Just because it's a law does NOT make it moral. Don't be a sheep.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Jeremi]

You're getting something for nothing, no matter what way you look at it

It's not inherently immoral to get something for nothing. Every time you inhale, you're getting air for nothing... and nobody considers breathing to be immoral.

Look at it this way: if computers, the Internet, mp3 players, etc had been invented 5,000 years ago, and were available/affordable to anyone who wanted one... if everyone in the world had had the ability to send and receive digital information to everyone else since time immemorial, would there even be the concept of copyright infringment? Quite the contrary, I think -- instead, the right to copy files would be protected as a 'natural God-given right'.

The idea that Joe may dictate what Sue does, with her own equipment, in the privacy of her own home, is merely an artifact, a historical accident, that will fade away as digital communications become as natural as breathing. Certainly unrestricted digital copying can give content creators the short end of the stick under the current system, but the current system is also an artifact of the now-obsolete physical/industrial model of content distribution. It too will fade away, and (presumably) be replaced with another system, one that better reflects the new realities.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Dave_bsr]

You buy music after checking it out on a P2P network, right? I'm fine with that. I do it myself.

That's what I do. However, I also keep some Mp3's, usually old stuff that isn't worth anything to anyone any more. Essentially, I follow this rule: If it's really good, i'll pay for it. If not...it'll get deleted when i clean off my hard drive...but it might stay for a while.

I bought more cd's when i was exposed to more music, via napster. However, because of the actions the RIAA has taken, I am turned off to the music industry and I have to really like a disc to "support the artist" by buying a cd.

But yeah...i think you are right. people who just keep a pile of music, with no intent of ever paying for it...they are stupid.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[drDugan]

one-fifth was actually bought and paid for. That's just being dishonest.


Why? When did we all get the assumptions that

1) ALL music someone has is something they SHOULD HAVE to pay for?

2) its OK to follow laws that do not make any sense, especially if they are bought outright by big corporations in a successful attempt to keep themselves in control of YOU.

My answers:

1) when the only music you CAN get legally is that which you can get by paying for it.

2) we all stopped thinking for ourselves.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Please tell me where you live so I can come over and liberate your Sony VCR Widescreen TV Laptop and anything else connected to big corporations that are controlling you. I dont feel like paying for these today!

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

I put you right in the same group as the RIAA - out for what you can get. Come back when you get a clue about the real world, kid.

Most people are out for what they can get. That's a clue about the real world, kid.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

How on earth is this offtopic? The whole thread has been marked "funny" or some such thing. Is some retarded moderator on a power trip or what? It's just adding a vote of affirmation to the parent comment... ok, Redundant, maybe, but not Offtopic...

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[hymie3]

Morality has no place in America. We are a capitalist society.

Rather, since we are a capitalistic society, he who has the money dictates the morales. Those with the money, the corporations, have morals; its just that those morals don't really care about joe sixpack (aside from viewing him as a natural resource).

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[rkoot]

If I were a computer with an webcam, I'd keep my cdromdrive locked firmly if someone approached me w/ a Celine Dion in his/her hands.
and if it were Celine Dion who approached me, I would probably shut down
have a nice day
r.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

read the link in your .sig

If you are the author I must congradulate you. You are exactly right.

I feel/think the same way, I am 27 and long for the days without work. I work a souless job for a Fortune 5 company and think nothing except for an alternative existence, its not angst, its not depression - i would rather be digging wells, tending the harvest, teaching children to read -- whatever -- that has value.

If i get off the career treadmill, the 'system' casts me aside, i must continue swimming with everyone else, in the same direction or drown into a martyrdom of poverty.

If me (and my wife) keep working, saving and living frugally we can buy back the rest of our existence -- "retire."

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm mostly into prog metal/heavy metal, but i love listening to Celine Dion. If that makes you think less of me, fine, but don't generalize too much ;)

Fuck Celine Dion, it's the fact that you're into metal that makes me think less of you.

;-)

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[rzbx]

giving nothing at all to the artist is morally better than buying the music and giving something

So giving "most" of the profit to these large music companies is morally right? Giving them the power to make a few artists rich, while many smaller artists get hurt in the process is right? Giving the music industry the power to make decisions about the music artists make, and the music that consumers listen to to is right? If to support an artist you have to pay the company many more times what the artist makes, the I give no support. That would be like dumping two gallons of oil into the ocean to clean up one gallon of oil.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[einer]

Actually, what he said was that he had 15 gigs, 3 of which were ripped from CD's he owned. This doesn't mean that the other 12 gig are illegal, it just means that the source was not his cd player. It could very well be that he owns them on cassette or vinyl or even cd (and just found it easier to download a single rather than rip the whole disk).

I actually agree with is argument (as you understand it... not as he presented it). Fuck the artists if they're in league with the RIAA. They can find another way of doing business and they are just as accountable for the sad state of fair use as the RIAA, MPAA, CIA, NSA, or any other FLA/TLA's. Do I steal? Yes. Am I wrong for doing it? Well, to the only person that truly matters, no, I'm not wrong. ;)

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[JimMcCusker]

Is it theft if a person wouldn't have bothered to buy it, or would never buy it? An example for me is Styx. I think that Roboto, Sailing Away, and Lady are funny songs to listen to, but I think Styx sucks in general, and I wouldn't ever actually pay for that stuff.

Also, there's such a thing as pricing yourself out of a market. At $15 a pop, it's usually not worth it to try out new bands. I'm taking a decent-sized risk by buying that instead of something I know I like. Gnutella et al allow me to try out new stuff without laying out large bucks doing so.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Quixadhal]

I'm not saying that stealing music is "right", but you should know something about how the recording industry actually works WRT the small musician.

A friend of mine had a CD produced for his band not long ago. The deal he got was basically $1 per disc sold (at the rate of $15). Not great, but fine... they sold 1000 copies, which should have been $1000 to him.

He never saw a dime. Upon further investigation, the company (which seemed legit) was legally based in Europe. That meant that any law suit he tried to bring would end up costing more than he'd get out of it.

Sooo, the end of the story is, some recording company made a cool $15,000 off my friend at practically no cost or effort to themselves.

Guess what? The RIAA does this every day. The only people who can make money are those who already have money to hammer out good contracts AND be able to threaten legal action to back them. What else is new?

The moral here is, if you think the artist is getting any of the money you're spending, you're probably deluding yourself too.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[BJH]

Yeah, yeah... 'I download music for free, I'm not a sheep.' Heard it before, still bullshit.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Andrewkov]

I have several gigs of music on my HD ... How much income has the recording industry lost? Excatly $0.00. I wouldn't have bought a single one of those songs if I couldn't have downloaded them. The music I do buy I have the original CD's and I don't copy them onto my computer (saves disk space). So arguing that the recording industry has lost thousands of dollars from my piracy is prety off base.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[GTRacer]

...i love listening to Celine Dion. If that makes you think less of me, fine...

I was still cool at this point. Heck, I even like Celine, in small doses. BUT:

I got me a car, it's as big as a whale and it's about to set sail!

I have to draw the line at Celine AND the B-52s. Sorry.

P.S. 12 gigs of ripped-off music? Damn!

GTRacer
- Well, then again, about 10% of what I have may or may not be illicit

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Grape Shasta]

How about, say, theft of income? What if I just say, took an hours worth of your pay away? Suppose you make burgers for a living and your boss makes you pay out of your paycheck for every one that was stolen, and I took a few?

Your analogy falls very short. When I work for an employer, we have a contract - I do what they say, they give me money. Now if my contract specifies that I don't get paid if someone steals burgers, well that's a pretty shitty contract. But you still didn't steal from me, you stole the burgers from my employer. I'll be pissed, but just because you're a jerk and I have a bad contract.

But now, with regards to intellectual "property", say you wrote a song and recorded it. My friend gives you money for a CD with the song on it. Then I copy my friend's CD and give you no money. Why is that inherently wrong? Did we ever sign a contract saying that I would pay you to record the song?

Yes, you lost the chance to make money by selling me a copy of your song. But what kind of way to make money is that? I pay you money for something I can get for free? It makes no difference where the song came from to me - it was there, a bunch of bits on a shiny disc, and I copied it.

If you want to make some money, go get a freaking job. Or put on a concert and charge admission. But don't try to tax me for some transaction which didn't involve you. How can you say I've stolen? How many less songs do you have now that you didn't have before?

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[frank_adrian314159]

You're getting something for nothing, no matter what way you look at it...

You're talking about Celine Dion, for Christ's sake. I'd say that's getting NOTHING for nothing.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[carlos_benj]

...he who has the money dictates the morales.

No wonder my friend, juan morales, seems to feel he's being opressed......

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[NanoGator]

"The original poster said that he has 15GB of music, of which less than one-fifth was actually bought and paid for. That's just being dishonest."

And how exactly is he supposed to pay for it? If I download Wil Smith singing the 'Men In Black' song, how am I supposed to pay for that? Buy the CD? Uh, no. That is *one* song. The soundtrack to Men in Black is a collection of songs.

If somebody doesnt pay for their MP3 collection, it's because the RIAA isn't providing a means to pay for it. If the RIAA would say 'here is what each song is worth', and provided that each song is fairly priced (I.e. the sum of all the songs on the CD shall not exceed the cost of the CD.), then I'd be happy to send a list of what I have to the RIAA and recieve a bill.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[ScoLgo]

2) How much of your cd's that you paid for went to the artist?

Well... I don't really know. Do you? What I can tell you is that very little of my money has gone into the RIAA/MPAA's coffers lately. In the past five years or so, I've bought used CD's almost exclusively. How much of that goes to the artists? Again, I don't really know. I believe they get the bulk of their income from concerts, merchandise, and airplay royalties, (at least those artists I listen to that get airplay anyway :). I suppose selling a couple million copies of a CD can't hurt the artist's bank account, but I agree with you that the percentage they receive is pretty low.

I have no problem with people checking out music before they buy it. I do it all the time. If I like it, I go buy it (again, used). If I don't like it enough to buy it, it ends up getting deleted at some point to free up disk space. No loss for the artist, since I wouldn't have bought it in the first place anyway. There's not much difference between doing that and sitting around at your buddie's house listening to the new CD he bought and then picking up your own copy if you like it. Or not, if you don't

The point here is; the guy says, "I have ~ 15 gigs of mp3's (perhaps 3 gigs are ripped from cd's that I own)". Even if that's not strictly illegal according to which side of the IP argument you're on, it just strikes me as a slimy way to be.

And yeah, he's only 20 and in college. Probably can't afford to buy all those CD's to fill his hard drive. Boo-fucking-hoo. Been plenty of times I couldn't afford stuff either. I didn't go take it anyway just because I could. I still think he's a loser.

OTOH, his post could just be a really successful troll and we all fell for it.... dammit! :-)

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[atomic brainslide]

Don't try this bullshit about what is "tangible" or not. The simple fact is, the result of my thinking is MY property, and I have a right to control what happens to it, be it placing it into the public domain, or selling copies of it to make money.

contrary to popular belief, the result of your thinking is not property unless it is tangible. you have merely been granted special priveleges, not rights, by your government to copy and distribute this result. copyrights are designed to balance your priveleges with other people's priveleges. this is why copyrights expire and why we have fair-use provisions.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[ScoLgo]

OTOH, how do artists put food on the table and continue to produce quality music for us to consume?

When's the last time you did a recording project? Or filmed a movie? My band just finished a 4-song demo. At a cheap studio, the tracking alone was $1000.00. Mixdown and fixes were done largely on my home system using cakewalk. The instruments and other equipment to produce the music, and the equipment/software to record and mix it had to be purchased at some point. Our day jobs have to pay for all this. And it can be some expensive stuff, (e.g., I bought a guitar last year that retails for $1500.00 USD). Do I just pull that money out of my a$$? In a word... No. I hafta work for it. Sure, some money comes from local & regional gigs, but not enough to supplant all our day jobs. If there was a good mechanism in place to compensate us, (RIAA/MPAA is clearly not it), we could devote more time to producing and promoting our music. Instead, I'm sitting here at a job that pretty much sux so I can pay my bills and hopefully get enough money together for the next recording project. (Ok, and posting to /. while I'm at it - heh :)

Don't get me wrong. I'm totally against copy protection laws, the RIAA/MPAA the DCMA, et. al. I also don't mind giving my music away to those who want to hear it. I write music because I love to do it. But at some point, without income, many potentially great artists will just end up flipping burgers and driving buses.

So, how does that work in your non-IP world?

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[someone247356]

Um... you said,

"Just like if I painted a painting, and you made a copy of it without my permission. And that painting IS a physical object."

Ok, I'll bite.

If I made a copy of that painting that you painted, that _physical_object_, do you still have the original?

If the original is hanging in a museum, and I make a copy of it without your permission, isn't the original still hanging in the exact same spot in the museum it was _before_ I copied it?

If you have the original painting, I make a copy of it (say I have a really good eye and by setting my easel up in front of it for a few minutes I can make a perfect copy) and take my copy home with me, what exactly have I stolen?

Picture this, As I am walking out the door to the museum, you notice my perfect copy of your painting under my arm. You call the cops. When they arrive you tell them;

You: "That man just _stole_ my painting!"
Cop: "What does it look like?"
You: (taking the cops over to where the original _still_ hangs)"It looks just like that."
Cop: (puzzled)"Did you have another copy that he stole?"
You: "No, that is the _only_ copy that I've made."
Cop: "It looks like it's still there." (scratches head) "Who painted the copy that the alleged thief walked out with?"
You: "He did I suppose."
Cop: "And who bought the paint that he painted that copy with?"
You: "I think he did."
Cop: "Did you buy the canvas that he used?"
You: "No, he brought that in with him too."
Cop: (obviously exasperated by your seeming lack of the obvious) "So let me get this straight, A man walked into this museum with his own paint and his own canvas. He personally painted a painting with his own paint, on his own canvas. Is this correct?"
You: "Yes, but he COPIED MY PAINTING!"
Cop: "Um, I'm sorry you feel this way, but he hasn't _stolen_ anything. You still have your painting. You can't expect us to arrest a man for drawing on material that he has lawfully purchased just because you don't like what he's drawn."
You: (pouting)
Cop: "Perhaps you should get in touch with those RIAA/MPAA folks. I hear that they are always trying to have people arrested for doing things with stuff that they legally own." (exits stage left)

So, as I hope you can plainly see, copyright infringement IS NOT stealing. Stealing means you bought it and have it, I took (_stole_) it from you. Now you no longer have it, I do. Ideas don't work that way.

I can steal the book, but I can't steal the story.

I can steal the CD-ROM, but I can't steal the song.

I can steal your DVD player, but I can't steal the patented, fatally flawed, decryption algorithm.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Lectrik]

Quoth the thingy:
You buy music after checking it out on a P2P network, right? I'm fine with that. I do it myself. The original poster said that he has 15GB of music, of which less than one-fifth was actually bought and paid for. That's just being dishonest.

spot on, ever since napster i've not bought any CD that was less thasn 75% listenable, and more often than not it was more than 90% listenable. Of course since that hurts the RIAA's prophets i must be an anti-christ or something. Heck there are even some artists that i know are good enough to produce albums that are less than 3% intolerable mushy filler dran (TMBG's Mink Car album comes to mind).

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah it sucks when your comments are moderated down huh?

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[flibuste]

I doubt that computers with good taste can be bought by people that buy Dion's CDs.. So, if your PC crashes and your CD firmware is corrupted, it's just because you deserve a lesson from your PC....or something...

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[jeminer]

It's 'disc' you dolt. Disk is short for diskette.

Brought to you by the society for the draconian implentation of English.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[civilizedINTENSITY]

Theft wasn't mentioned. You assume facts not in evidence.

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[civilizedINTENSITY]

I thought we were a democratic republic...

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

how is this a troll? really?

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[blair1q]

Here's a picture of Celine Dion attempting to eject a disk.

And here she is making modem tones while trying to connect to /.

--Blair

Re:Celine Dion, eh?

[MrResistor]

Artists don't make money from album sales. If you want to support the artist go see them in concert, and buy a t-shirt while you're there.

You aren't making sense

[ChazeFroy]

Since Sony admits that their product is designed to cause damage to your computer system, almost anyone would likely have a good lawsuit against them.

How would that make a good lawsuit? Seems to me that Sony is covering its ass by letting the consumer know up front, which would make the lawsuit more difficult.

Re:You aren't making sense

[beta21]

Also on the CD it says don't play this on a PC or MAC.

IF this crashed your expensive CD-player than that would be another matter.

Re:You aren't making sense

[Cenam]

hehe..play it on a work comp since pc is techniclly a personal computer, then you can sue thier dumb asses:)

Re:You aren't making sense

[xTina]

What are they telling people? That it won't play on PCs. Or that it will crash their computers, potentially causing loss of important data? I remember, when those audio cds with a video/data track as track one came up, they had a huge warning label telling you not to try to play track one because it might damage your stereo ... And .. what would they say if your roommate takes the CD (that happens to lie on your desk without case and booklet) and tries to play it on the computer you both own ... crashing it ... causing you to loose all data of your term paper one day before it's due ... oh, wait ... they'll sue YOU ... letting your roommate listen to music he hasn't paid for ;-)

Re:You aren't making sense

[cowboy junkie]

I think it's like an SNL fake commercial I saw a while back where they have 'Pet Chow Rat Poison' (Pet Chow is the name of the guy selling it) in a big dog food bag with a dog on the front (his dog) with 'rat poison' in tiny letters. The rat poison also looks and smells like dog food.

If you are selling something that looks like a cd and is packaged like a cd, sold with other cd's, but doesn't act like a cd, I think you are treading on pretty thin ice...

Re:You aren't making sense

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the article before you make knee jerk posts.

According to the article: "According to a spokeswoman for Sony Music Entertainment, it is clearly stated on the front of the booklet and on the back of the jewel box that the CD "will not play on a PC or a Mac" in the language of the country in which it is sold", and then goes on to say, "Should the consumer try to play Dion's CD on a PC or Macintosh, the computer likely will crash"

There is a HUGE difference between "will not play on a PC" and "will crash your PC". Ask someone who just spent four hours working on (say) his thesis, and decided to put the CD in the drive, even if just to see if it really "would not play". "Would not play" means "nothing will happen". "Crashes your PC" means "if you hadn't saved, you've just lost a lot of work".

They claim to have sold over 10 million discs using this technology, and will have sold over 500,000 of the Celine Dion CD by the end of its first week.

Re:You aren't making sense

[Amazing Quantum Man]

So what if I tried to play this on my Sun workstation? Does it say anything about them?

Re:You aren't making sense

[Anonymous Coward]

If playing an audio CD could crash your sun workstation, I would say that you have a potential lawsuit against SUN, not Sony

Re:You aren't making sense

[Carlos Laviola]

This is not an audio CD. It cannot bear the logo that all standard, red-book-following CDs do. You may call it anything but an audio CD.

--

Re:You aren't making sense

[cscx]

That's a hilarious analogy... I love that commercial! [Click here for Petchow]

Re:You aren't making sense

[Sancho]

And .. what would they say if your roommate takes the CD (that happens to lie on your desk without case and booklet) and tries to play it on the computer you both own ... crashing it ... causing you to loose all data of your term paper one day before it's due ... oh, wait ... they'll sue YOU ... letting your roommate listen to music he hasn't paid for ;-)

Read the article. The same label is on the CD itself, too.

Re:You aren't making sense

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like class action law suits waiting to happen to me. At $200 per customers, that some BIG cheque that Sony has to cough up. What if you little kid put the CD in you PC while you weren't looking ?

I wish Sony burn in hell along with the rest of the RIAA, MPAA.

Re:You aren't making sense

[epsalon]

OK, So what happens if the roomate takes your backup copy of the CD (it's been shown elsewhere in this article the CD is in fact copyable)?

Re:You aren't making sense

[Anonymous Coward]

It complies with the Red-Book standard. It just isn't ISO9660.

Deal with it.

Re:You aren't making sense

[Jaysyn]

I propose calling it a "Crapio CD".

Think about that for a second. Who do people normally go to when something they stick in thier CD-Rom drive crashes thier PC? Could it be someone like me or you? Probably. Get that to be a standard name for calling these discs, and they will go away.

Jaysyn

Re:You aren't making sense

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, not a CD, so perhaps a fraudulent representation on behalf of Sony - A Phillips techo could testify it is not a 'CD'.
Further hot water.
Find a CD model(s) that it does not work on, then take it back.

In Japan, to knowingly make a defective product, deviate from standards is near, if not a crime -
Countries with harsh environmental laws will frown upon idiots to try to encourage consumers to send millions of CD players/computers to landfil.
Maybe Sony becomes a nominee for Corporate Darwin Award 2002.

Re:You aren't making sense

[MsGeek]

Linux baby...Linux. This *IS* /., after all...

Re:You aren't making sense

[jovlinger]

Programs (and hence PCs and operating systems) MUST accept illformed inputs. When your PC crashes because you tried to read a CD, well, the CD sucks, but so does your computer.

Reminds me of the polish virus "hey! I'm a virus. Send me to everyone you know!". Now, only an idiot would fall for that, and only a peice-of-crap computer will crash on ill-formed input.

Re:You aren't making sense

[sveinhal]

According to the How it works-page on the official Key2Audio-site, this copy-protection actually don't compomise the red book-standard:

The high reliability is due to the fact that the audio part fully complies with the Red Book standard - not a single bit is changed in the audio data stream - i.e.: no uncorrectable errors are used to protect the audio data. This gives the highest audio quality for your protected music.

sveinhal

Re:You aren't making sense

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but there's more to a Audio CD than the actual tracks. The audio parts may be unaltered, but other parts are. Therefor, these CD's aren't Red Book-compliant Audio CD's.

Re:You aren't making sense

[sveinhal]

Yes, but there's more to a Audio CD than the actual tracks. The audio parts may be unaltered, but other parts are. Therefor, these CD's aren't Red Book-compliant Audio CD's.

Appearently the parts that are altered, are either not covered by the red book standard, or altered in such a manner that they still comply. Because I doubt that they are plainly lying about this beeing red book-compliant.
I could off course be mistaken about this.

sveinhal
IANRBE (I am not a red book expert)

Re:You aren't making sense

[Anonymous Coward]

Who says its not an autorun script that crashes your computer on purpose?

Re:You aren't making sense

[kevinsan]

But if you are buying onlin how can you tell the differance? Go **gasp** Amazon or CDnow and they both say Audio CD. Sure, you may be able to return it but what a huge pain in the ass.

Re:You aren't making sense

[Malachi]

Its like those big trucks that sling huge rocks out that read, 'We are not responsible for debris from our trucks.' BS.. They may say that but in court you still have to have responsibility. Someone's going to pay the bill for my crack'd windshield or dented hood. Could the same hold true for malicious behavior on your own personal property of a computer?

-M

Re:You aren't making sense

[dr_dank]

This is not an audio CD. It cannot bear the logo that all standard, red-book-following CDs do. You may call it anything but an audio CD.

IIRC, the red book standard also stated that the 2 second pause between audio tracks is the mark of a compliant disc. If this is the case, then many cds technically aren't up to standard.

Re:You aren't making sense

[Svartalf]

But, all CD-ROM drives are REDBOOK compliant (they also work as audio players, hence the little analog jack in the BACK of the drive on most drives.)- you're not using ISO-9660 in any case for an audio disc, ISO-9660 is a data-only specification (I can tell you've never tried to do anything fancy with a CD-ROM drive before, or you'd KNOW that distinction...).

They're doing something that a straight-up audio player ignores. Now, whether or not a player is REDBOOK compliant or not is up for debate (I'd hold that most of the audio players, not needing the full spec (because they don't display session info, etc.) aren't impacted by it, but since computer players use all the bells and whistles, they get borked by this stuff. Now, I think they're actually claiming that the data is REDBOOK compliant but they're altering the other info. This means the discs aren't REDBOOK compliant because the computer players are conforming to the spec also.

Re:You aren't making sense

[Amazing Quantum Man]

Except that an intel Linux box is still technically a "PC". Therefore, if I run it on my Linux box and it trashes it, Sony's covered. That's why I specifically said Sun.

Damn.

[sllort]

Your heart may go on, but your computer won't.

Proventing Suicide

[polarkittycat]

I would try it to see if it actually does crash my computer.. but I would probably be forced to kill myself from listening to the music if it did play....

Are you sure sony isn't protecting suicide?

Re:Proventing Suicide

[Dimensio]

Heh.

I'm tempted to get it and trying to rip the tracks with as high a quality as possible...and then e-mail them individually (as WAV files, not MP3s) to Sony.

Re:Proventing Suicide

[shoptroll]

Actually, I just showed this to one of my roomates and he said he hasn't had a problem with it...

-shoptroll

Re:Proventing Suicide

[GreenHell]

Actually, I just showed this to one of my roomates and he said he hasn't had a problem with it...

Where was the CD bought?

The CD's protected with Key2Audio were apparently only released in Germany and several other European countries. So unless you happen to be European, of course your CD is going to play. (If you are European, it is guaranteed to play unless there's a great big warning on the front booklet, the back of the jewel case, and the CD itself)

Re:Proventing Suicide

[lmfr]

"he said he hasn't had a problem with it"

The problem with it is that he *has* it! ;)

(Sorry, couldn't resist...)

Re:Proventing Suicide

[ziriyab]

Actually, I just showed this to one of my roomates and he said he hasn't had a problem with it..

Suure... one of your roommates owns the CD, but you don't, right ;)

Re:Proventing Suicide

[Afrosheen]

I can see it now:

Everquest user commits suicide after playing way too long and listening to the new Celine Dion cd. Sources say the CD inserted into his computer during his EQ game subsequently crashed the user's computer, causing him to lose all will to live. Film at 11.

ANd this is a *feature*

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like a microsoft product, doesnt it?

Canadians...

[Anonymous Coward]

What do they know anyway?

Celine Virus Alert

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't decide which is more annoying:

a) Actually listening to Celine Dion
b) Having Windows crash one extra time per day

i wonder...

[BigBir3d]

...wtf is sony thinking? undermining another sector of their business??

Re:i wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

No doubt there will be an upgrade for Vaios that will fix this.

Re:i wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, I happen to be a Celine Dion fan, and I can't believe they're doing this! It's just evil! I refuse to buy this CD or any other CD from Celine Dion and/or Sony. They've just a lost a customer!!

Re:i wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

undermining another sector

Yeah, they've really gotten off track.

Re:i wonder...

[Delphis]

You think they'd use their heads.

Re:i wonder...

[lpp]

Well, they obviously weren't firing on all cylinders.

Re:i wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't worry. They probably have the marketing prowess to put a positive spin on this.
Maybe they're tired of Celine Dion's inexplicable popularity, too. Think! Why else would they pit the public against her?

Crashing Computers

[nick_davison]

Crashing computers are nothing. Put Celine's CD in to your car while you're driving and it'll make you crash that too, just to end the god awful experience.
</all too obvious crashing joke>

Re:Crashing Computers

[Blasto.Net]

So, doctor assisted suicide is still illegal in some states, but Celine Dion isn't?

Also, along the lines of the computers crashing, what if you had files on your computer that you had been working on for years, that you hadn't backed up, and wanting some "easy" listening you pop in good old "Screamin Dion" and it crashes the program you are running, along with your computer, and not only does it corrupt the file you have been working on for years, but also requires you to format.

"Sony, you can't just buy those years of progress back!"

"Uh, sorry, heres a million bucks"

Really! IT COULD HAPPEN!

-=J=-

Re:Crashing Computers

[Delphis]

Yea right, Sony saying sorry..

Whatever.

Re:Crashing Computers

[SeaCrazy]

And after seeing the movie, we also know who is really responsible for sinking the Titanic.

Re:Crashing Computers

[Lectrik]

Quoth the post:
And after seeing the movie, we also know who is really responsible for sinking the Titanic.

We all knowf Celene Dion was on the Titanic she could have shattered the iceberg with her voice.
Then again if the were listening to Celene Dion i can understand

Re:Crashing Computers

[Anonymous Coward]

That's really clever. The combination of "witty" insult with intentional mispelling of her name (suggesting that you're so cool, she's barely even on your radar screen) truly impresses me. Your taste is clearly far superior to that of the unwashed masses who appreciate her music.

Oh, wait...that looks like the cover of "Falling Into You" peeking out of your pocket.

Busted!

cdparanoia

[Anonymous Coward]

How long before cdparanoia is patched to read these cd's?

Re:cdparanoia

[Wonko the Sane]

It would be extremely ironic if these cd's could only be played back on linux machines.

Re:cdparanoia

[red5]

Actualy the cdparanoia idea is even MORE ironic in that cdparanoia is a ripper and not a player.
You have to rip the tracks to play them now THATS ironic.

Re:cdparanoia

[colonelteddy]

How long before cdparanoia is patched to read these cd's?

It depends, Either:

Sombody capable of doing such an act (Of course, there are lots of these) actually wants to listen to Celine Dion (ie, never)

Sony releases some decent music with this formatting. (Far more likely)

Of course, in the event of the second option, I would have to say the answer is not long at all.


I'm just avoiding the option that somebody will make a patch for it just to prove a point, as the idea of making it easier for people to listen to Celine Dion is too horrible to consider.

Re:cdparanoia

[Doug Neal]

Well, if you set cdparanoia to output to /dev/dsp it works as a crude sort of player... but you don't get anthing like forward/rewind/pause etc. Of course there is also the CDDA-reading library that cdparanoia is part of, and it'd be easy enough to make a proper CD-player-program sort of thing with it. There's probably one already...

Little Chance

[apathyruiner]

of this crashing my computer. Anyone notice how the artists at the top of the charts don't have copy protected CDs?

Re:Little Chance

[Tetrad69]

Anyone notice how the artists at the top of the charts don't have CDs worth having?

Re:Little Chance

[Anonymous Coward]

How true...

The users were warned!

[Jucius Maximus]

Quoth the article:

"According to a spokeswoman for Sony Music Entertainment, it is clearly stated on the front of the booklet and on the back of the jewel box that the CD "will not play on a PC or a Mac" in the language of the country in which it is sold. Besides those notices, which the spokeswoman said were readable before purchase, the disc itself bears the same warning."

And physical damage to the computer is supposedly in the firmware of the drives (on macs)

"On the German discussion boards at MacFixit, Mac users claim that the CD will not eject using normal methods and that the intentional corruption of the disc's session data could unpredictably affect the drive's firmware." But Sony said that the firmware problem is not real.

Please keep in mind that I'm not saying that any of this is right or ethical. It's just that the post doen't completely represent what happenned (and I am sure that article has some shortcomings in the 'truth dapartment' too.)

Re:The users were warned!

[elmegil]

All I can say is, if a piece of media with random data on it can corrupt the firmware, that's a pretty lousy drive you've got there. Does that justify Sony's action? Of course not.

Re:The users were warned!

[Anonymous Coward]

So it says it will not play on a PC or a Mac? How about my Sun workstation... it would sure be bad if they wrecked an overpriced Sun CD-ROM drive.

Re:The users were warned!

[dattaway]

It may have a warning on the jewel box and the booklet, but often CD's are innocently left on the desk.

Wouldn't it be an opportunity for sabotage to leave the bare CD in the server room for some techie to slide it in while troubleshooting something? I can see the phone lines start to flash...

Re:The users were warned!

[perky]

but if you have mede it as far as the server room you may as well wire up the cabinet door to the mains, and replace the terminals with model three waffle irons.

Re:The users were warned!

[Anonymous Coward]

As the post you are replying to says:
""According to a spokeswoman for Sony Music Entertainment, it is clearly stated on the front of the booklet and on the back of the jewel box that the CD "will not play on a PC or a Mac" in the language of the country in which it is sold. Besides those notices, which the spokeswoman said were readable before purchase, the disc itself bears the same warning."

Re:The users were warned!

[Joe Decker]

clearly stated on the front of the booklet and on the back of the jewel box that the CD "will not play on a PC or a Mac

Agreed. I will note, however, that if the Dion product doesn't play in a PC, it's because it isn't a Compact Disc (tm), and, as Phillips has pointed out, is fradulent on that grounds.

Re:The users were warned!

[zbeba]

Not necessarily at the point of purchase. I went to Amazon and, sacrificing my consumer profile for the greater good, added the CD to my "cart" (I can't imagine the pablum I'll now be offered through spam). There was no apparent warning displayed on the page for the CD, nor when I went through the motions of almost ordering it (couldn't go that far).

Re:The users were warned!

[Technician]

I think it is funny that the inventor of the Betamax wins a case for fair use in a case where it was accused of being an infringement device. Now they are trying to produce content that disables the fair use they fought for. If you copy the content they have the DMCA to use. (maybe they don't get the DMCA protection because they are a Japanese company not a US company.)

Re:The users were warned!

[Anonymous Coward]

This brings into mind a quotation from Terry Pratchetts The Last Continent:

Any true wizard, faced with a sign like 'Do not open this door. Really. We mean it. We're not kidding. Opening this door will mean the end of the universe,' would automatically open the door to see what the fuss was about. This made signs rather a waste of time, but atleast it ment that when you handed what was left of the wizard to his grieving relatives you could say, as they gasped the jar, 'We told him not to.'

Computer's way of saying no more?

[Hates]

Are you sure the machine isn't crashing becasue it would simply rather kill itself that play a Celine Dion CD?

What geek would ever...

[lhbtubajon]

...play Celine Dion? Seriously?

Re:What geek would ever...

[Anonymous Coward]

My guess would be those canadian geeks

Illegal?

[Loki_1929]

Naaa, Windows has been crashing my PC for yeeaarrs and I've never had anyone tell me I should sue them.

Re:Illegal?

[zaffir]

But is Windows crashing your computer intentionally?

Re:Illegal?

[Jaysyn]

Poor thing can't help it, kinda like an epileptic child. No offense to any epileptics out there.

Jaysyn

Considering it's Celine Dion...

[Penis]

This is prolly more a blessing than a curse.

Pen-15

Out of retirement

[Hadean]

Maybe someone in Sony secretly didn't want her to come out of retirement (ugh), so they used her as a test case, hoping this'll push her right back in thanks to all of the bad publicity she'll get... or maybe that's just my hope?

Sony vs. Microsoft

[pyrrho]

I think this is just a, "look, we can too" aimed at Microsoft as part of the growing Sony vs. Microsoft war.

Celine may be on to something...

[ryanvm]

This is probably just a way to boost her sales.

I know that the only Celine Dion CD that I would ever buy is one that doesn't play.

At least its Celene D-yawn

[Anonymous Coward]

and not something I would listen to. The last CD I bought was the Queen of the Damned soundtrack, which plays fine. If it didnt, back it would go and it would be the last cd I purchased from that record company, a piece of information I would share with them. They may not care about me personally, but eventually the letters add up.

Come on!

[Negadin]

"The CD will probably cause a system to crash, but it will not alter anything," the spokeswoman said. "And it won't eject properly, but that's just because the computer has crashed."

Crashes will not alter anything?

When did sony make computers that retain all their data after a crash?

Re:Come on!

[Anonymous Coward]

A Sony PS/2 with no hard drive or memory card :-)

Re:Come on!

[rainwater]

Crashes will not alter anything?

If you are using Windows, your whole system could become unstable (I know, it already is). But you could lose other sensitive data you have open as well.

It's all about the liability

[The FooMiester]

Sony is just trying to cover their respective bottoms, due to this recent problem. They figure no mal-adjusted nerds will listen to the cd and kill themselves this way, only conformist sheep who listen to their cds on regular hardware.

LF_)#NFNFNFQAK)@02-123041JFOA904jJ-0jfas

Legal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bout as legal as the money that pays off the
DOJ, Legislature, etc.

One nation, under corporate law.

MINAL

[sllort]

Michael Is Not a Lawyer

Since Sony admits that their product is designed to cause damage to your computer system, almost anyone would likely have a good lawsuit against them.

There's a warning in my car owner's manual that admits that pouring gasoline all over myself and lighting a match may cause permanent injury or death. I should sue them!

Re:MINAL

[An Onerous Coward]

"There's a warning in my car owner's manual that admits that pouring gasoline all over myself and lighting a match may cause permanent injury or death. I should sue them!"

That's a totally inappropriate analogy. You can't find a person who has poured gasoline on himself and played with matches outside a burn unit. That's just not something that your average person expects to be able to do without serious ill effects. You can, however, find millions upon millions of people who have become accustomed to playing CDs on their computers.

It's more akin to your car owner's manual prominently noting that the wheels fall off when you honk the horn three times in rapid succession.

Re:MINAL

[TheCarp]

heh no the issue as I see it is not that the warning is there, but that it looks like a CD. General accepted wisdom is that you can put a music CD in your drive and play it... and if it doesn't work big deal. It would be extremely uncommon for a person to expect a machine to crash just because thye put an audio cd in (unless their system is fucked up to begin with... I think ive actually seen that with bad hardware once...)

To me its more like...imagine coca cola put out a 12 oz soda can of gasoline with a little sticker "do not drink" that otherwise was very easy to mistake for Coca Cola Classic because it looks almost the same except for the small sticker.

Its a hazardous product if used incorrectly and it is designed to look exactly like a common item that is not hazardous. It is done intentionally, and a small sticker is added to say "hey this is bad".

Its like the SNL skit mentioned in a previous post "Pet Chow's Rat Poison" (with "Pet Chow" being the brand name and the real product "rat poison" in small letters).

-Steve

Re:MINAL

[Dyolf Knip]

Except there is no reason why one should douse oneself in gasoline. CD's are meant to be played in CD-ROMs. If one uses a product exactly as the standard says it should be used, and it still screws up...

But as has been pointed out, these are not, strictly speaking, audio CD's. Someone suggested we techies start reffering to them as "Crapio" CDs. Might start a trend.

My advice would be for record stores to print out a bunch of stickers that say "This CD has been deliberately damaged by the manufacturer and will destroy a computer!" and stick them on all of these copy-prevented labels. Make it glarish and totally unavoidable. People won't be buying them, but then they won't be buying and returning them either.

But of couse they usually get money from returned CD's anyway so it'll probably never happen.

Re:MINAL

[Anonymous Coward]

Allow me to take this analogy even further:

Imagine if in the car's manual, *and* on the window sticker, it says that driving on certain roads -- let's say roads of a certain size or age but nonetheless arbitrary -- will cause the car to abruptly cease all functioning at full speed. No power steering, no brake assist, big paperweight going 60 mph with you in it.

I like this analogy because it highlights the sheer *ridiculousness* of Sony's statement -- that their suddenly and deliberately crashing a customer's computer is completely harmless behavior. C'mon, please.

This is explicit proof of what's been bothering me for ages: That makers of consumer computer hardware and software force-feed the buyer a standard clause of "this is not for serious use, this product may be totally faulty and we take no responsibility for anything bad that might happen to you, your hardware, your data, your bank balance, etc."

Say all the bad things that can be said about car makers, but just imagine if they foisted this onus upon us (sorry) when we buy a car. You can't sell a car that kills people due to a fault in its design. How much longer to we have to accept software that damages our property and productivity, with no expectation for responsibility placed on the maker?

Personally, I would prefer the statement "This is NOT an Actual Audio CD" be clearly evident, in such explicit terms on the packaging, a la "Parental Advisory: Explicit Lyrics". I like Philips' stance on the matter -- denouncing these Not-CD's. Let them be heard.

End of rant.

(Thanks to An Onerous Coward for giving me this idea.)

Re:MINAL

[Anonymous Coward]

My PC has a decent sound system, speakers CDRW drive etc. So I figured I didn't need to spend £200 on an equivalent stereo system to listen to CDs.

Oh - but now I do right? And all because of a copy protection system that will encourage people not to buy audio CDs if this system becomes wide spread.

If people didn't copy music, it would cost the music industry billions. This is how people discover music & artists + shit. I have dozens of copied CDs because I couldn't afford to buy all of them, but have since bought CDs by those bands because I got into them. Otherwise I would have never listened to them, and never have been inclined to buy their music.

Fuck you Sony.

I don't think so

[rootmonkey]

The CD will not eject using normal methods and that the intentional corruption of the disc's session data could unpredictably affect the drive's firmware.

The article then says.

Firmware is a combination of hardware and software instructions that are permanently embedded in the hardware's controlling chips, such as with a computer's CD-ROM, and altering it could cause permanent damage.)

Right, cause you can really cause permanent damage to permanently embedded instructions . I think the real permanent damage would occur if you actually listened to Celine Dion's music.

Re:I don't think so

[Anonymous Coward]

you can damage the firmware on a cdrom drive, ever upgraded the firmware on a burner only to have it never burn again? newer drivers and better models have ways to go back to an older firmware after a screwup, but a lot of older driver can turn into cupholders if their firmware is toasted

Re:I don't think so

[TooTallFourThinking]

Tee hee. When I saw the parent post I nearly busted a nut. The poster was pointing out the article was talking about permanently embedded in the hardware's controlling chips which is not something that can be flashed. If it can be flashed and is upgradeable then it is not permanent. Funny shit. It's more transient than permanent.

Re:I don't think so

[ColaMan]

Firmware isn't as 'firm' as you think.

Most cd-drives have firmware that is upgradeable, similar to the BIOS in your PC. Mainly to fix or work around the bugs that they didn't see at the factory.

For example, I upgraded the firmware on my DVD drive because it didn't do DMA properly when it came out, but a firmware upgrade fixed it.

It's pretty unlikely that it would cause firmware corruption though. It is possible however to "crash" your firmware , so that it ends up in an unknown state (it's unknown, because the damn drive just sits there, and there aint no monitor or keyboard directly attached to your CD drive to see what went wrong).

Most likely, with a corrupted CD, all you get is a drive that spends 10 minutes trying to find a table of contents that makes sense. This (esp in windows machines) means 10 minutes of waiting for your cursor to respond, or rebooting.

A little on the anti-social side for Sony though.

Re:I don't think so

[Anonymous Coward]

...or, in this case, in believing the accuracy of anything Yahoo has to say on the matter.

What about Autorun.ini?

[NanoGator]

If Sony wanted to be obnoxious, they could write a program that starts when Autorun is activated. It could cover the screen and say "YOU CANT PLAY THIS HERE!!!", and then send a signal to the CD ROM to eject the CD. When somebody puts it back in... and so on.

Yes, this would be easy to get around. But I'd far prefer that then causing a BSOD.

Re:What about Autorun.ini?

[lburdet]

how is preventing me to listen to a CD an incentive to buy it????
who the hell has a sound system that isn't a 19" rackmount? ;)

Re:What about Autorun.ini?

[NanoGator]

"how is preventing me to listen to a CD an incentive to buy it????"

Makes you wonder, doesn't it? It'd be like Coca Cola making their drinks evaporate moments after they leave the can, that way nobody could pour the coke into a cup and sell it to somebody else.

Re:What about Autorun.ini?

[donutello]

"how is preventing me to listen to a CD an incentive to buy it????"

\begin{ObviousRedundantRepeatedJoke}

Obviously, you haven't heard Celine Deon sing.

\end {ObviousRedundantRepeatedJoke}

Re:What about Autorun.ini?

[Anonymous Coward]

More like having that Coke instantly solidify if it's poured into a non-approved glass (ie, not of a form sold to authorized Coke resellers).

Re:What about Autorun.ini?

[nachoman]

It's called hold down shift while the CD spins up... I never use autorun.

Re:What about Autorun.ini?

[DapperDan]

Or you could just turn it off so you don't have to hold down any keys.

Re:What about Autorun.ini?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course you don't have to use Windows.....

Re:What about Autorun.ini?

[shren]

That's a brilliant idea! I'm writing my patent application now.

Re:What about Autorun.ini?

[Anonymous Coward]

LaTeX pseudocode! All rejoice! Boo-yah!

Poor kernel hackers

[red5]

Now some poor kernel hackers will have to listen to this music so they can code a workaround for the linux kernel.
I feel there pain. Just rember this is for the greater good. :)

Re:Poor kernel hackers

[CyberKnet]

I would argue that unless a (real) music artist uses this format then it would actually be for the far lesser audience... =P

(case in point, how many teenage female titanicites/older gay men/older love-lonely women do you know use linux? There's the Celine Dion marketshare right there)

Re:Poor kernel hackers

[red5]

Aye but if we "get the ball rolling now" so to speek.
By the time a cd worth putting on my iPOD comes out It will all be ready.

Re:Poor kernel hackers

[ChadN]

Though horrible, this reverse-engineering experience will be much needed for the day when Sony finally deploys "Snow Crash" virus technology in Everquest.

A brain that can stand up to massive amounts of Celine Dion music (thanks a LOT, James Cameron...), might have a chance at avoiding meltdown.

Re:Poor kernel hackers

[linuxChique]

case in point, how many teenage female titanicites/older gay men/older love-lonely women do you know use linux?

sounds like a good way to introduce linux to all those poor windows/mac users out there... maybe our fellow open source enthusiasts are in the league with $ony? thats it! celine dion is the downfall of M$!!

Re:Poor kernel hackers

[Anonymous Coward]

(case in point, how many...older gay men...do you know use linux?

Good point. We're typically looking for fresh, young, virgin assholes, like yours, to break-in.

Guess what, dumbfuck? Many gay men use Linux. Many straight men listen to Celine Dion.

Re:Poor kernel hackers

[Anonymous Coward]

The local LUG meeting is a great place for chickenhawks to troll.

Mmmmmm, all that alienated angry geekflesh...

Re:Poor kernel hackers

[Jucius Maximus]

"Now some poor kernel hackers will have to listen to this music so they can code a workaround for the linux kernel."

Maybe one of the good[*] bands will release a CD like protected like this ... I am sure that within hours of release it will be cracked and a new kernel patch will be released. :-)

[*]I will not elaborate on what a "good" band is because no matter what I say, I will be trolled to death.

Re:Poor kernel hackers

[red5]

[*]I will not elaborate on what a "good" band is because no matter what I say, I will be trolled to death.

My personal strategy is to use the most abscure band I can think of.
How many people know who "Dub Pistols " are.

Re:Poor kernel hackers

[w4r3z_d00d]

i have no idea who they are but im sure they suck.

Re:Poor kernel hackers

[tbostick]

If the CD is capable of confusing the drive FW, a kernel or driver hack would not fix this.

Re:Poor kernel hackers

[Troed]

A good band already used this system a while ago ... from http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/cd_prot ections_key2audio.shtml

Protected CDs:

K's Choice - Live - Released 24-09-2001

:/

Re:Poor kernel hackers

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn. I wasnt expecting the spanish inquisition.

Re:Poor kernel hackers

[Anonymous Coward]

Lots, thanks to Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2.

Try again, kid.

maybe if this sort of CD protection worked...

[iguana]

...the entertainment 'tainment industry will drop crap like SSSCA.

Why bother mandating copy protection and making the non-music people suffer through crappy software when there is no need?

Pay for the damn music. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Duh. Vote with your wallet.

Re:maybe if this sort of CD protection worked...

[Sc00ter]

The problem with this is.. How do I get my music that I bought on my portable MP3 player? The one that I use to listen to because it's way smaller then any portable CD player and will never skip when I go for a run. How do I make a backup copy for me to have in my car so the one I paid for doesn't get scratched to hell?

Re:maybe if this sort of CD protection worked...

[Anonymous Coward]

For your portable MP3 player, you can go download many fine tunes (sic) at mp3.com. You know, all that cool freedom that allows small scale musicians to publish their music, etc. etc.

You are not 'entitled' to a backup copy, you just aren't allowed to be prosecuted if you somehow manage to make one. And anyhow, you can record (from your stereo system) into your sound card to make your car-quality copy. Car stereos have shit sound quality anyway.

Re:maybe if this sort of CD protection worked...

[Gaetano]

According to them this is only your problem not their's. They sold you a CD you can play, but not on a "PC" or a Mac. Nowhere are they saying you can play it on any other device that is not itself able to read a CD. I don't think they even say you can have a backup copy. If it gets scratched you have to buy another one. The bastards like it that way.

I'm just making myself angry here...

When its a CD I want to listen too I'll really get angry.

Re:maybe if this sort of CD protection worked...

[Dr. Spork]

Look, it's going to be a long time before one of these copy schemes is present on every single copy of the CD released around the world. The article says clearly this only affects Germany, or at most, Europe. Well, let an Australian buy the "normal" CD, rip it with EAC, compress to .ape and upload the files to usenet. That way, everyone can burn a bit-for-bit identical copy of the CD even if they live in Germany, without the stupid limitations on use. A fringe benefit of this system is that your contribution to the Sony tyrany is exactly 0.00 Euros.

Just don't count on me to be the guy who buys the CD to rip it for you. :)

Re:maybe if this sort of CD protection worked...

[Anonymous Coward]

That isn't the solution... The solution is the brands to market it's products at MARKET price and not at over prices.

You only have paralel economy when the market is f*cked up!

And remember, if you keep adding protections over protections in no time it will be impossible to do ANYTHING because there will be a law against it somewhere.

So, cut the crap and start to sell online and at the popular files!

If there is piracy, the labels have some guilty in it also. But that's the american way of life (greed).

Cheers and have a nice day...

Re:maybe if this sort of CD protection worked...

[Anonymous Coward]

you obviously haven't heard mine ;)

/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Drakino]

Ohh, another confirmed, mass distributed copy protected CD. Time to make another round and buy these, open them, and return them. Remember, thats the best way to get the message across, at their cost. And if the stores eat the cost, they will get upset with Sony, and end up solving it as well.

http://riocar.org/cd/ for the 7 I have returned to date.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[red5]

Exept they have a BIG warning sticker on the front.
If I was the store manager I would not exept returns on this cd.
"Sorry pal you were the idot that bought Celien Deion".

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[jgerman]

You're not likely to get very far doing the "buy,open,return" scheme here. The cd is labelled, that's only a protest of un-labelled cd's.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Drakino]

Well if they are still calling it a CD and not a shiny disc with music, my job is not done. My CD Rom has a CD-Audio logo, and if that CD package has a CD Audio logo on it anywhere, it means they are supposed to work togther. My biggest complaint with copy protection is the mislabling of these shiny discs.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[zmooc]

They're not allowed to use the CD logo. At least not for a few more years. The logo is copyrighted by Philips and can only be used for discs that conform to the CD standard. These discs don't. So let's call them CD's. Crashing Discs.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[FyRE666]

Time to make another round and buy these, open them, and return them.

Sorry dude, maybe if it was a nin CD or something I might want to help out, but there's no fscking way I'm walking into HMV in broad daylight and blatantly buying a Celine Dion CD!

When you think about it, adding copy protection to a Celine Dion CD is about as worthwile as adding a $20,000 alarm system to a Trabant (for those who're unaware, it's an unbelievably crap European car - think those hilarious "exploding" clown cars, except more dangerous and less funny).

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[gnovos]

Just as long as they don't have the CD logo... if they do, then which one do you, as the consumer, believe? The CD logo that says it will work in your computer, or the Sony one that says it won't? Sounds like fradulent marketing to me.

Imagine :

"Malboro Advisory: These cigarettes will not cause cancer!"
"Surgeon Genral's warning: these will cause cancer."

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[ender81b]

Argh. f**ck sony:

"And it won't eject properly, but that's just because the computer has crashed."

And you won't be able to eat properly, but that's just because my foot is so far up your ass that I'm playing footsie with your tonsils.

Arghhhhhhhhhhhh.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

That's not a copyright (or a patent) that's a trademark. Trademarks NEVER expire, unless the compnay fails to renew it or allows infringment without taking action.

Ask a lawyer for legal advice.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Shiny Metal S.]

Yes, I think we should protest by not buying that CD. Oh, wait a minute...

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[zmooc]

They're patents. And they expire in 2002 and 2003 - after 20 years.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[red5]

Just as long as they don't have the CD logo... if they do, then which one do you, as the consumer, believe? The CD logo that says it will work in your computer, or the Sony one that says it won't? Sounds like fradulent marketing to me.

Well exept the cd-logo is a LOGO and not a label that says anything.
Plus the sticker is much bigger then the logo.
It's more like having a little USA flag on a disc thats all in french.
If the disk hase a sticker on the front saying "This disc is in french".
I dont think you could bring it back saying "Man it hade the little USA flag on the back. I though it was in english".

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Anonymous Coward]

Easy solution -- it will definitely break some CD player out in the world -- some official sanctioned music listening CD player. As people discover these, someone needs to post that CD player type to a big webpage. Then everyone who has bought the disk can open/return and just claim it didn't play in their brand xyz cd player.

Easy enough...

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Anonymous DWord]

It's a logo that's licensed from Philips, with the expectation that a disc with that logo conforms to standards. These don't. Ergo, they shouldn't have the logo.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[red5]

Okay got me there.
Now do we actualy know if these cds have the logos?

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

Philips still has a TRADEMARK on their logo. That does NOT expire. Even though their patents will.

So yes, after 2003 they can't sue for patent infringement, only for trademark infringement (whereas now they can do both).

Trademark infringement can even carry criminal penalties.

You'll never be able to independantly sell a "Whopper" hamburger - because of the trademark. Same deal here.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[abburdlen]

Of course being a slave to hype now I've gone and downloaded a song I never would have listen to on the radio let alone purchased.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[shepd]

>Well exept the cd-logo is a LOGO and not a label that says anything.

No, the CD logo is a Trademark, and carries the same weight as a UL or CSA Trademark. It means that this product meets all the licensing requirements of the people owning that logo. With the CD logo that means it is playable in a computer.

More importantly, even if this CD bears no logo but is placed in with other CDs that clearly do, and under a sign that says "CD -- XYZ/Various", it will be VERY difficult for the store to get themselves out of trouble with a judge. Its like having a "new car" section at a dealership and sticking a used car in that section. If you buy that car and the dealer doesn't say "Oh, we made a mistake, that isn't a new car" first then they are practicing deceptive advertising (probably a felony).

The minute that isn't true, watch out for knockoff electronics killing people that still have a CSA/UL logo in the "safety products" aisle.

>I dont think you could bring it back saying "Man it hade the little USA flag on the back. I though it was in english".

I bet you could when you point out the sign above the rack of CDs that says "English CDs". Now, if a music shop would rather label their CD section with "Shiny round music discs" than "CDs" they are welcome too. Until then, they are attempting to deceive me into purchasing a clearly inferior product.

Besides, any smart manager would realize that having someone shouting "You are selling me fake CDs that can't be played in standard equipment" would scare away more than enough business. And no, you can't just tell someone to leave and expect them to. And you can't force them out. You need to wait, and wait, and wait for the good 1/2 hour or two it takes for the police to respond to the least important of calls -- tresspassing. Or at least Cops says so. :-)

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Anonymous Coward]

The USA flag is public-domain.

The CDDA logo is a trademark owned by Philips. According to Philips, it can only be used legally on discs that meet either IEC-908 or Red Book standards. I am told Key2Audio works by opening two sessions (the first being audio and the second being data) and then intentionally only closing the first one (although this has not been confirmed). Most CD players ignore all but the first session and happily play the disc, but CD-ROM drives read all the sessions and choke on the unclosed one.

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about Red Book (e.g. whether multi-session discs are allowed, or if all the sessions have to all be closed) to say whether or not this violates trademark law. At any rate, assuming my description of Key2Audio is correct, it shouldn't be terribly hard to bypass; just copy the CD onto a CD-R (using CloneCD or the like) and then use a CD mastering program to close the last session. (Insert obligatory DMCA violation joke here.)

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Anonymous DWord]

Heck no! How could we spout flaming rhetoric if we knew that? Slashdot would collapse!

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Wakko Warner]

The sticker's on the wrapper. The wrapper gets thrown away when you open the CD. Why wouldn't they believe you when you said your new CD had no sticker on it?

Posts like this should not get +5s.

- A.P.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, there is one situation that sucks: when you buy a CD on the web and it isn't stated that it is copy protected. I recently bought a trance mix cd (Tunnel Trance Force v. 20) online and the damn thing has copy protection. Now I'm just feeling sort of screwed.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[gnovos]

The logo has a meaning, though. It would be like sticking "FDA Approved" stickers on untested drugs.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[red5]

Now you have a case.
If you used a credit card call them up and contest the charges.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[red5]

The sticker's on the wrapper. The wrapper gets thrown away when you open the CD. Why wouldn't they believe you when you said your new CD had no sticker on it?

Good point. I still won't be caught dead holding (let alone buying/returning) one of her cds.

Posts like this should not get +5s.

Hey I just post em I don't mod em.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Rude Turnip]

And for god's sake, if you're buying something that you suspect may be fraudulent goods, put it on your credit card and dispute the charges if the store won't take the disc back. Credit card companies don't like it when their merchants commit fraud.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[karnal]

From reading the article, however, the cd DOES conform to the redbook standard....

But, as with all new protection, it doesn't say exactly "what" is done to the disc to avoid PC and Mac playability (other than "there's some watermarking here and there, etc")

.... so, in my opinion, I'll bet it has the logo.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[karnal]

Whoops -- ignore my last comment, I screwed 2 articles up...

There was an article earlier in the comments, stating that the copy-protection used in this case actually does conform to the standard.

http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/cd_pr ot ections_key2audio.shtml

Sorry, my screw-up...

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[$carab]

Dude, I really admire your pro-active stance (I marked you "friend" and am posting sans +1 bonus), but from your website, you say that you would return this CD because, to paraphrase, "The CD has a "CD" label, and the CD player has a "CD" label, so they should work together"

However, the audio tracks on the CD comply FULLY with the red-book standard for CDs. The "CD" label DOES NOT mean ISO-9660 compatibility. It means Red-Book compatibility, which this CD has, so I'm afraid your argument doesn't really hold water. However, I doubt that the store clerk would know that!

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Anonymous Coward]

That doesn't mean that the CD can't play on the CD-ROM. If sony has branded it as "CD" then they are doomed!

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Anonymous Coward]

But does it say it will not work on a Sparc???

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[KodaK]

"Malboro Advisory: These cigarettes will not cause cancer!"

"Surgeon Genral's warning: these will cause cancer."

This has nothing to do with Celene Dion or Sony, but I did see an add for some brand of cigarettes that advertized "less carcinogens" with a Surgeon General warning stating something like "none of these claims have been verified." I believe the brand was Monarch, or something that started with an M. Strange stuff these days.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I saw something like that in the paper. It was for a brand called Omni.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[cposs]

that plan would suffer from the fact that many stores (best buy, circuit city, wal-mart et al.) won't accept opened cds for return. so not only will you: 1.) be seen buying a celine dion cd, but also you will 2.) fuxX0r up your computer 3.) be seen returning a celine dion cd 4.) be laughed at by the 18 year old customer service rep 5.) be stuck with a celine dion cd (until you find some female relative to give it to) there's no way to win except not buying it

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[ShawnH]

I don't see a "BIG warning sticker on the front,"
only a small label that says (I think) "Will not play on PC/MAC"

I think Sony is blowing some smoke.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Geckoman]

Obviously what we need are lots of blind shoppers who can't see the sticker!

Of course, why a blind person (presumably with more sensitive hearing) would choose to listen to Celine Dion is beyond me.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[red5]

The sticker is most likely on the plastic wrap and therefore not in the shot.
But if its an online purchase then a label on the pack is useless. IMO if they don't tell you in the text on the page it doesn't count.
If in a retail store it's not a label on the front. I think it's also not enough.
I do think these ant-fare use systems are wrong and it vexes me that it is illegal to break them.
But if you were warned then you should know better.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Black Parrot]

> Exept they have a BIG warning sticker on the front.

And besides... someone might see you in the check-out line with a CD CD in your hand.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Anonymous DWord]

Why? Because of this:

According to a spokeswoman for Sony Music Entertainment, it is clearly stated on the front of the booklet and on the back of the jewel box that the CD "will not play on a PC or a Mac" in the language of the country in which it is sold. Besides those notices, which the spokeswoman said were readable before purchase, the disc itself bears the same warning.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Svartalf]

Then it should play in a Yellowbook compliant drive because the compliance is a built-upon, not a replacement. If it's truely compliant, it shouldn't do what's being claimed of them- it might play okay in normal drives, but that doesn't make it compliant.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[grahamm]

Not only is it on the wrapper, it is printed on the case (and on the CD)

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[grahamm]

Luckily for Sony, the Celine Dion "CD" does not not carry the CDDA logo on either the case or on the "CD".

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[bsterix]

Better (if the store also sells computers):
Open it, go to the computer-department, ask if you can try a CD on a nice Mac or expensive Notebook.
If it does not work (and has damages the computer) RETURN it :-)

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Captain Large Face]

How about:

Parental Advisory
Contains Cheesey Lyrics

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[toriver]

Now do we actualy know if these cds have the logos?

That's the tricky bit: The logo is imprinted on the inside of the cover (in the bit of plastic that has the depression where the CD sits). So you need to open it to check, that's why Philips want warning labels/stickers on the outside - in addition to removal of the logo.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[toriver]

Parental Advisory
Contains Cheesey Lyrics

Or:

Surgeon's General warning 1: Contains lyrics so sugar-sweet they may induce type II diabetes.

Surgeon's General warning 2: Music and/or lyrics may cause nausea in people with good taste.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[red5]

That's the tricky bit: The logo is imprinted on the inside of the cover (in the bit of plastic that has the depression where the CD sits). So you need to open it to check, that's why Philips want warning labels/stickers on the outside - in addition to removal of the logo.

Hmmmm. let me check so cds...
Some of them do and some don't.
Moby - Play has the logo on the back of the box.
The Blade 2 soundtrack does too.
Liquid Todd - Solid State dose not. Not even on the cd weird.

Now remember The fast and the furious soundtrack part 2 (you know the one that had copy protection).
It dose not have the logo on the back. Also the waring sticker is on the back not the front and it's placed on the insert under the plastic. You have to rip apart the case to get to it.
This cd does have the logo on the cd it's self however.

They all do have it eched on the inside of the case like you said.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[grahamm]

It does not have the logo.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[mbrx]

Well, the label only says it doesn't work on PC's and Mac's. There's nothing on the label about not working on for instance a Sparc station. Of course I'm bright enough to realize that it probably doesn't work on my 'puter at work but the intended audience (Celine Dion listeners) might not be.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[Erv Walter]

The sanctity of the UL/CSA logos are based on the repulation of the organizations behind them that give out the license to use the logo.

As has been discussed several times previously, Philips seems to be willing to license the CD logo to anyone who has the required fee. The CD logo only means something if Philips enforces it, and they don't. It's meaningless.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[CaseyB]

It is in the shot, you can see it on the lower right of the backside image. It's very small, no one that wasn't looking for it specifically would notice it.

Re:/me runs out to the store, buy open and return

[shepd]

>The CD logo only means something if Philips enforces it, and they don't

As seen on slashdot, philips has decided to do something about it. I dunno if its all gas, but hey, one can always hope, right?

Crash?

[Carbonite]

Dave Matthews Band should sue that beyatch for stealing their work.

Carbonite

Sony denies the allegations?:

[Merik]

"The CD will probably cause a system to crash, but it will not alter anything," How is crashing a system "not altering" it? Looks like we may be seeing the begining of trend towards destructive copy protection.

Re:Sony denies the allegations?:

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony's new corporate statement - "Control, crash, illegalize" customer's computer.

Re:Sony denies the allegations?:

[Anonymous Coward]

because your PC is going to crash anyway... ;)
Sony should market these as "Mission Improbable" CD in joke shops.

Rip, Can't Eject, Crash, fschk, Law Suits

the obligatory "and in other news..." post

[liquidsin]

Firing at your computer with a 12 gauge from close range isn't good for it either, but would you sue Smith & Wesson for damages when you blew a hole in your case? The fact that Sony is admitting that this will cause crashes probably protects them from liability. It may not be the best business strategy, but that's not really the issue here. Now if it caused my stereo to crash, I'd be pissed. Any news on whether we'll see this *protection* on any worthwhile discs?

Re:the obligatory "and in other news..." post

[Arandir]

There's a big difference here. A CD is meant to play in a CD player. A shotgun is meant to hunt birds.

Using the shotgun to blast your computer into small pieces is not the normal use of a shotgun. Putting a music CD into a CD player *is* the normal use of a shotgun.

Of course, in the future, the normal use of Celine Dion CDs will be to launch them as clay pidgeons and shoot them with your shotgun...

Re:the obligatory "and in other news..." post

[bytes256]

HAHA!!! Smith & Wesson doesn't make 12 guages...hehe...you would sue Remington or Winchester instead!!!

Re:the obligatory "and in other news..." post

[Amazing Quantum Man]

Using the shotgun to blast your computer into small pieces is not the normal use of a shotgun. Putting a music CD into a CD player *is* the normal use of a shotgun.

Uh, could you tell me how I could use a shotgun to put a music CD into my CD player, please? :-P

Re:the obligatory "and in other news..." post

[Geek of the Week]

No, I wouldn't sue Smith & Wesson. It'd be rather pointless really, considering they don't manufacture any shotguns.

Kind of like suing Sony because I ran into my house with my car.

Re:the obligatory "and in other news..." post

[Anonymous Coward]

Aka "CD's don't kill computers, people kill computers"???

-A

Re:the obligatory "and in other news..." post

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I can see how you might make this mistake. Obviously in your world computers were created for the sole purpose of being target practice.

Get real.

CD-ROMs were *made* to play CDs, whether they're music CDs or game CDs. That's their purpose. Is it all that surprising that people expect to be able to use them for it? My 3 year old knows that you can play music CDs in a computer CD-ROM, and he can't read yet.

CD player -> Line in -> record -> burn to new CD. Here ya go, Honey, you can play this one anywhere you like. Although, please god, let him have better taste than Celine Dion

Re:the obligatory "and in other news..." post

[Anonymous Coward]

Remington would have been a better choice.

Re:the obligatory "and in other news..." post

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, Sony *is* marketing a dangerous device (the copy protected "cd") which is intentionally (!!!) designed to fit any device which uses CD-Format discs.

I can pop a DVD into my CD-ROM and it doesn't crash my computer--it just looks at me funny. So, why doesn't Sony just come out with, say, a seven inch *square* format music-disc. That'd keep us from putting it in out computers.

Re:the obligatory "and in other news..." post

[Anonymous Coward]

Very, very carefully.

Re:the obligatory "and in other news..." post

[Anonymous Coward]

Pity about those who use their computer for a stereo system. Hurrah! a blow struck for electronic seperatism.

Re:the obligatory "and in other news..." post

[Arandir]

My Bad :-) Change "shotgun" to "CD" and you'll have what I meant.

Swan Song....

[dghcasp]

<celene> And I.....
will always....
love yoooooouuuuugggghhfdbfdshjk^Y$&#^^&(*@!(*)#&@!*(
Blue screen of death

I like it. I think Microsoft should license Celene's music to play as your computer crashes... Nice and mournful...

Re:Swan Song....

[jgerman]

Isn't that Whitney Houston?

Re:Swan Song....

[SmileyBen]

Erm... wasn't that Whitney Houston?

Re:Swan Song....

[Amazing Quantum Man]

I know that my heart will g;oliu90875109ykljhliudyoa87fylkfjhalskd v8o317698 kjhflu108 76

BSOD

Re:Swan Song....

[Dirtside]

How did you know it was Whitney Houston? :)

Re:Swan Song....

[Anonymous Coward]

I was going to laugh at you because you knew the words to a Celine Dion song. Now I'm laughing at you because you knew the words to a Whitney Houston song :)

Re:Swan Song....

[ink]

Whitney Houston:Celine Dion | Linux:BSD

Re:Swan Song....

[nzgeek]

I'm betting he knew it was Whitney, but wanted to make sure that no one would accuse him of being overly familiar with Celine Dion lyrics!

Re:Swan Song....

[Cowculator]

It should be the other way around (BSD:Linux), since BSD is supposed to be more stable than Linux while Celine Dion is about as unstable as Windows 95.

Re:Swan Song....

[psamuels]

Isn't that Whitney Houston?

Actually Dolly Parton. Whitney Houston only covered it.

(Yes, I am ashamed to know that. (: )

Re:Swan Song....

[sysrequest]

except that you're mixing this one up with whitney houston ;-)

Re:Swan Song....

[Graspee_Leemoor]

"The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead"

Three years after the Racoon City incident, a lonely scientist at Umbrella Corporation is relieving his sexual tension using a small furry mammal and some duct tape. Unfortunately his penis is covered in the T-Virus.

RESIDENT HAAAAMMMMMSSTEEEEERRRR.

graspee

Re:Swan Song....

[jgerman]

Yeah I knew it ;) Couldn't tell you a single Celine song, except for the thing from Titanic, couldn't tell ya how it goes or the title though ;)

Re:Swan Song....

[Graspee_Leemoor]

Flamebait?!?

Whooo, I can see those Umbrella Corp scientists got mod points!

graspee

lawsuit eh?

[americanFatCat]

Well I believe it's time to run some important, irreplaceable business program while listening to Dion's lovely cd.

...oh dear.

Yeah, Celine Dion moved me...

TO A BIGGER HOUSE!

Re:lawsuit eh?

[goatboy_14]

Yeah, Celine Dion moved me...

TO A BIGGER HOUSE!

You know you watch the simpsons way too much when you recognise even the smallest quotes.

Krusty, right?

Re:lawsuit eh?

[americanFatCat]

Yeah, that was krusty at the rigged movie awards.

Same episode with the classic, "I was saying boourns..."

How fast will it be ripped?

[chill]

Hours? Minutes? Seconds? It shouldn't take long for the entire CD to appear on the Gnutella network and other P-2-P sessions. In fact, it will probably be one of the most ripped CDs of all time, just out of spite -- not that anyone wants to listen to it.

Re:How fast will it be ripped?

[shird]

Correct, it is already available on the fast track network (Kazaa et al.). As most people get their pirated music from global P2P networks rather than from friends ripping CDs for them, the fact that even ONE copy gets onto a file sharing system, all their efforts at copy-protection are wasted. It just becomes a pain for people who want to listen to their CDs through their computer, or rip it to MP3s for their own personal use, eg. to transfer it to their portable MP3 player etc.

I'm curious as to how those newer CD players which can play MP3s from a CD as well as normal CDs handle this, because surely they would need to read a CD in the same way as a CD drive in order to read the MP3s?

Re:How fast will it be ripped?

[suwain_2]

This is similar to your point, but ventures into different topics...

Essentially, what Sony is doing is very bad for them. They, unintentionally, are essentially promoting the use of Gnutella, etc. If you buy the CD, you can legally download MP3s (though the record companies seem to dislike this concept...?). But after buying a couple 'bad' CDs, why bother? What's the point of buying a CD just so you can download things off Gnutella?

I think Sony, without realizing it, is really shooting themselves in the foot on this one. People are just going to stop buying CDs, and use Gnutella instead. Not only is it cheaper, but it will work better, and they don't risk damaging their computer. (Although I am still a bit skeptical of physical damage claims...)

Re:How fast will it be ripped?

[crisco]

Well over a thousand hits on WinMX, including the entire album zipped up and assorted bitrates over 128.

The proverbial cat isn't so easy to put back in the bag, is it Sony?

Re:How fast will it be ripped?

[TheCarp]

YAOD (Yet Another Obligatory Dig)

Don 't you see... thats what they are trying to avoid.

just think of the horror... I mean, who the hell would buy a Celine Dion CD if they actually knew what it sounded like? The ability to rip this and get iut out on the net is poison to them... it could kill their sales overnight if poeople actually heard it first!

-Steve

Re:How fast will it be ripped?

[Balorn]

Of course, they will use this to their advantage.

I can see it now... "See, even our most advanced content protection, and people are still stealing it! We need laws to make this impossible, not just illegal, or we will be driven out of business, and then the world will be completely devoid of music/movies/etc since we won't be able to provide our invaluable services any more! Boo hoo!"

Re:How fast will it be ripped?

[Anonymous Coward]

ssshhhh! winmx is flying under the radar....keep it quiet!

Re:How fast will it be ripped?

[Sancho]

Stop propogating that myth, it has absolutely no basis in law.

Re:How fast will it be ripped?

[psamuels]

"See, even our most advanced content protection, and people are still stealing it! We need laws to make this impossible, not just illegal [...]

Well it should be "We need laws to make this illegal, not just illegal ... oh wait ..."

Re:How fast will it be ripped?

[Anonymous Coward]

The proverbial cat isn't so easy to put back in the bag, is it Sony?

i prefer toothpaste back in the tube

Re:How fast will it be ripped?

[inicom]

Similar question: for those of us with Audio Request or Arrakis network music servers, what will the CD do?

While these are computer-controlled, they are absolutely not computers but audio servers for providing whole-house audio. They read the audio
cd using a cd-rom however. Damage to one of these X-thousand dollars devices would really piss me off.

aem

Re:How fast will it be ripped?

[Bastian]

The bastards won't be able to keep me from ripping my CD's to turn them into MP3's until they break into my home to disable the headphone jack on my stereo and the microphone jack on my computer.

How stupid do they think we are?

Re:How fast will it be ripped?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the problem with all of these protection schemes. Even if it were somehow impossible to read the digital data from the disc, one can always just play it on a high quality stereo and run it through a good soundcard and digitize it. Then put that on Kazaa, et al. Does the SSSCA even address this? Will amateur bands need a license to record their shows and practices so the equipment isn't put to nefarious purposes? Or is there some sort of audio Macrovision that could be embedded in copyrighted recordings, and not easily filtered? Even if breaking the protection is inconvenient for the average consumer, you only need one dedicated individual to do the dirty work.

Intentional Harm

[Boulder Geek]

If Sony tried to market this thing in the U.S. they would probably run afoul of state and Federal Consumer Protection Agencies. In spite of what Sony may claim, any sudden crash of a computer has the potential to cause irrepairable harm. I seriously doubt that any company can dodge responsibility with a printed disclaimer. Which of course explains why this copy protection (ha!) is only being sold in Europe. In the litigious U.S. they would very likely get into trouble very quickly.

Re:Intentional Harm

[MtViewGuy]

The very fact that the Sony protection scheme could actually render a optical (CD-RW or DVD Recordable) drive on a Macintosh useless is grounds for a major lawsuit against Sony by Apple.

Making discs difficult to copy is one thing, but damaging computer hardware is quite something else.

Re:Intentional Harm

[Anonymous Coward]

In the UK it is illegal to modify the normal running of a computer or software. This "CD" will clearly breach this law, so if Sony try and sell it in this country knowing that it will crash a computer if it is run, then they might find the full weight of the law being applied against them.

Depends on how large a donation Sony make to the labour party I suppose...

Re:Intentional Harm

[Anonymous Coward]

would it be possible for someone that lives in europe to sue sony in the US.
i think it would be.

not much to worry about ...

[fayd]

I don't think we have that much to worry about. The more crap they pull, the more people they piss off. $20 for a CD? Thanks! May I have another? Personally, I haven't expanded my music collection (CD, MP3, whatever) since Napster shutdown. It's too hard to find anything good these days, and I'm not wasting $20 on crap (or something I don't know).

Is it any wonder my interest in new music is dwindling to nothing? And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Re:not much to worry about ...

[Anonymous Coward]

There are plenty of resources for MP3's besides having to use some crappy "file sharing" program. You just have to know where (read "how") to look.

Sony has right to decide what system I use?

[dsconrad]

This seems like it should be illegal somehow. It seems, at least to me, that I should have the ability to play a cd that I bought on any system I want. Will we next see Sony CDs not playing on non-Sony cd players? Or Sony-produced DVDs not working on non-Sony DVD players?

Re:Sony has right to decide what system I use?

[Jhon]

You should qualify that. I don't expect a CD I buy to play on my microwave. Nor do I expect a video tape I buy to play in my DVD player.

That said, if Sony want's to break Phillip's CD standard, that's fine. It BETTER not have the "Compact Disk Digital Audio" logo on it and it SHOULD NOT be called a "CD".

-jhon

Re:Sony has right to decide what system I use?

[Anonymous Coward]

In related news, Sony admitted today that Playstion 2 discs will not run on XBox or Gamecube! Oh my!

Yeah, I think Sony does have the right to decide what system you use...hey why doesn't this CD play on my vacuum cleaner?

Re:Sony has right to decide what system I use?

[Anonymous Coward]

isnt this what has been going on w/the 2600 dvd lawsuit thing? Isn't illegal to buy a DVD, modify your toaster to play it. (or in the one case, linux) or any 'non approved dvd players?'

What we need here...

[Jucius Maximus]

What we need here is a petition that states that we will avoid buying this CD at all costs and will warn our friends to do the same because it is not standard Red Book Audio and will not play in and possibly damage our computers so it can be sent to Sony and used for posterity.

Once the marketers get it into their heads that Crippled CDs == Angry Customers == Lower Sales then things might start going the other way.

Re:What we need here...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep.

Sony is going to care that a bunch of people who rip all their music to MP3 and share it on the internet won't buy their recordings.

Does anybody else see the irony in the above?

Re:Who cares about MACs?

[atrowe]

Yeah, but they make up Celene's largest fanbase.

CD-Audio drives

[EdMcMan]

An easy solution I can think of is just selling cd audio drives (no data) that read like normal cd players. That way, we can listen to copy protected cds, rip copy protected cds, hence making there no need to be copy protected cds in the first place.

Sony, I have a great idea for you.. here is how you make the PERFECT copy protection.

You will need: 1(One) CD (Compact-Disc), 1(One) big sharp object
Steps:
1.Place CD on flat surface, with the label side down.
2.Hold the big sharp object, be careful not to drop it on your toe, it will hurt.
3.Place the big sharp object's sharp point near the middle of the cd.
4.Apply pressure, and move the object toward the outside of the cd.
5.Rotate, and repeat.
Extra precautions: Breaking the CD in half will result in an extra layer of protection.

Re:CD-Audio drives

[Jucius Maximus]

"2.Hold the big sharp object, be careful not to drop it on your toe, it will hurt."

Try label-side UP. Even though CDs are read through the bottom, the data is actually at the top. If you put some 'medium' scratches on the bottom of the disc it will probably still be readable. If you put the same scratches on the label side, you can say goodbye to your music/data.

Re:CD-Audio drives

[Anonymous Coward]

>A dialup ISP in southern Ontario that supports Linux and X11!

So _that's_ what happened to BBS42. What a small world...

Re:CD-Audio drives

[SWTP]

Good idea but that only for CD-R & RW. Standard pressed CD are stuck between a top and bottom layer of plastic. IE the data is in the middle. Both sides are tested with the least amount of data error being the side left and the "bad" side gets silk screen.

So you would need to do both sides. ;)

Clone CD can copy it

[PineGreen]

For how to copy it and more information see here

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

You realize that you may have just broken the law, right?

Not that I think it should be illegal, but you could possibly get sued/imprisoned for trafficking (you helped people find it) in a circumvention device or process.

The fact that the above comment may be illegal should definitely motivate you to fight CBDTPA and fight to have the DMCA repealed/declared unconstitutional.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[amason]

Don't you find it interesting that the system designed to stop a cd being copied can be avoided. Yet the cd still can't be played on a computer. Is this copy protection or simply something that stops those of us who have their computers set up as a stereo from listening to music? This is a bad solution to an impossible problem.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

Considering he has a .uk website, I don't think he's exactly waiting for the FBI to kick his door in ;)

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[MattJ]

And *you* may have just broken the same law, perhaps, by using the phrase "fight CBDTPA" in your comment tied to his comment. You have created a future link in Google between "fight CBDTPA", his post, and, implicitly, the allegedly infringing software. You're helping people find software that "fights" (circumvents) these laws.

Of course, I've now done the same thing.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Anonymous Coward]

No, he hasn't. AFAIK, he has the right to make a backup copy for his own personal use. Which is why we all pay a tarrif on all CD-R's designated "for music".

In case you've been asleep for the past couple of months, the recording industry is trying to fuck the consumer in two ways, all in the name of "combating piracy", and "protecting corporate profits". Because, of course, "piracy is terrorism":

(1) They impose a tax on CD-R's.
(2) The then make it difficult to copy an audio CD.

Bear in mind that the second is a protected right - to make a backup so long as it's for personal use. So in a sense they want to have their cake _and_ eat it too. It is, in a way, organised crime - they stop short of actually doing anything "illegal" but that's only because they've bought enough senators so that they can do what they want.

And please excuse the tone, but what fucking circumvention device? Clone CD does raw bit-for-bit copies, so it's likely that the copy protection is still intact on the copy.

To get off on more of a rant - I wonder if any of these artists have considered that any media they allow to be released with copy protection will be doomed to obscurity. Sheet music, vinyl - timeless media. Haven't changed in years. Find an old record in the attic that was your grandmother's - odds are that you can play it. What's the chance that anybody will be able to listen to any of this copy-protected garbage in 20 years?

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering he has a .uk website, I don't think he's exactly waiting for the FBI to kick his door in ;)

So long as he doesn't attend any hacker conventions in the United States.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[PhxBlue]

You realize that you may have just broken the law, right?

So does anyone who speeds or who throws their cigarette butts out the window. The costs from these crimes outweighs the costs from circumventing copy protection so that one can listen to a legally-purchased CD, I'm sure.

Which law do we believe? The DMCA, or the U.S. Copyright Act? One says we can't do this, the other says that--as long as we're making a copy for backup purposes, etc.--we can. I lean toward the latter. . . it just makes more sense.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck that. He should be imprisoned for trying to proliferate Celine's music.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[dsb3]

I wonder if the moderators who gave it a +1 are also guilty. For that matter, is this comment illegal since it may be construed as giving more weight (thus more visibility) to the original statement?

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Anonymous Coward]

Anybody who is stupid enough to go to a 'Hacker Convention' in Las Vegas is mired in the past. I mean, geez. DefCon. How 80's can you get? Is your Amiga really that important? How's the Fiero running?

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[nolife]

That brings up an interesting point.
How could a product that existed in time before this method of copy prevention become illegal? Sounds to me like Sony is using a method that could already by bypassed even before it was ever even used. This whole computer cd player prevention doesnt seem to be a "protection" method anyway. I view encryption or protection as a higher level technology designed to keep people out. Not a design that uses existing equipment anomalies in hopes that they will not be able to read it. What if they put the output level redicuously low on the cd and you could barely hear it unless you used a special Sony addon to your headphone jack? Would connecting your own extra amplifier be a violation or a circumvention device? They are using a method of prevention that violates a generally accepted standard, not an encryption scheme.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck the law!! If the feds come a-knocking, I'm going out like Dilinger!

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Anonymous Coward]

To my knowledge bit copy isn't circunventing anything!

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Monkeyman334]

No, he cannot be sued/imprisoned for the link. Sony would make the claim to Slashot, and it's their responsibility to take it down. If Slashdot doesn't comply in X days, then maybe someone can get their asses sued.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

You are being logical. Don't expect the courts to do likewise (especially in the Southern District of New York).

Judge Kaplan, for example, very likely will treat this as a "technical measure which controls access to a work".

The DMCA doesn't specifically say it has to be encryption. It states:

"a technological measure 'effectively controls access to a work' if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, requires the application of information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain access to the work."

One could say that a consumer CD doing interpolation over bad sectors is sufficient to qualify for the above, and is done with authority of the copyright owner, but that hacking a CD ripper to do the same isn't.

The DMCA doesn't say you can't abuse pre-existing technology to "protect" content.

Look at Macrovision - it originally worked (and it some cases still does) by confusing automatic gain control circuits in consumer VCRs. The DMCA contains a mandate that a VCR "respect" Macrovision, not only disallowing modifications to VCRs to avoid that design shortcoming, but actually mandating that VCRs that would by default work even in the face of Macrovision encoding be hobbled so they do not.

If I made VCRs I would have it record this in text on the tape. "RECORDING PROHIBITED BY FEDERAL LAW (Digital Millenium Copyright Act, 17 USC 1201(k)).

Let the consumer know exactly why it does not work, and give him the information needed to fix it. Even though the fix is more political than technical.

P.S. Your examples could be considered circumvention and probably would in at least one judge's courtroom.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

DMCA takedown provisions (basically ask for something to be taken down - no court involved - and the site has to or else loses "safe harbor" status) are only for cases of suspected infringement, not circumvention.

You can't use DMCA takedown provisions to get DeCSS taken down, you could however use them to get an "illegal" MP3 taken off a web server.

Of course there are other (legal) ways they can get something like DeCSS taken down (but they require court action - or at least threats of lawsuits).

I wouldn't be surprised if the DMCA takedown provisions were eventually extended to circumvention devices and information.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Anonymous Coward]

Hell, I could tell you where to go to find some hookers in this lovely town of mine, but that's not going to get me arrested. Guess the times, they are a-changin'!

P.S. The DMCA can suck my balls!

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Malicious]

You sound like Jim Carrey in the Cable guy: "What you have just done is illegal, and in this state, if conviced, you could be fined up to $5000, or spend 6 months in a correctional facuility.............." Of course, in the end, he was breaking the law too.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[SuperBug]

He couldn't have just brokent the law since backups are allowed under fair use.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[DarkEdgeX]

It's interesting that the site you linked to doesn't have a way to actually rip the audio to MP3/OGG/etc though. When the question of perfect digital to digital copies is mentioned, the site says it's not possible. I wonder if CloneCD'd copies will exhibit the same problem, or if that's potentially a way around the issue/bug (Sony seems convinced that the technique they use is written to an area that CD-R drives can't access/read and/or write, so I'm guessing that data isn't cloned by CloneCD).

I mean, obviously it's been ripped somehow (read: the various posts elsewhere, citing hits on Kazaa, Gnutella, etc), but I wonder if those were analog to digital rips, or if they were real bona fide digital copies to MP3/etc.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[radish]

Seeing as mr PineGreen's URL indicates a UK domain, the DMCA does not apply, ergo he's very unlikely to have broken the law in the manner you suggest. The world != the USA.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[atarian]

'effectively controls access to a work'

Key phrase there.
If the circumvention method exists prior to the protection method it circumvents how in the world could the protection method be said to be 'effective'?

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Alsee]

have the DMCA repealed/declared unconstitutional.
--
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!

Ouch, sometimes Sig's match a post perfectly, and sometimed they clash really really badly.

-

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[carm$y$]

The article at cdmediaworld.com says:
The key2Audio work on most CD Readers but on a few (more expensive) readers they fail to work.

Now this is funny - I mean, they not only stop people listening to the cd on their PC, but they also stop people who care enough - and have enough money to spend - to buy an expensive cd-player from playing it. It must be worthless.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Rogerborg]

• How could a product that existed in time before this method of copy prevention become illegal?

The DMCA doesn't make possession of a circumvention device illegal, nor does it even prevent you from using it (that's copyright law). What the DMCA makes illegal is the act of creating the device, or obtaining or providing a copy of it, or telling anyone how to obtain it. It's exactly like making it legal to own and to use lockpicks (on your own lock or with invitation), but making it illegal to make, sell, buy or talk about lockpicks. No, it does't make sense, but, hey, this is a bought bill, not one arrived at through debate and consensus.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Rogerborg]

• Seeing as mr PineGreen's URL indicates a UK domain, the DMCA does not apply, ergo he's very unlikely to have broken the law in the manner you suggest

The Copyright, Design and Patents Act 1988 was around in the UK ten years before the DMCA.

Specifically, we're talking about Section 296 which says:

• "296.--(1) This section applies where copies of a copyright work are issued to the public, by or with the licence of the copyright owner, in an electronic form which is copy-protected.

  (2) The person issuing the copies to the public has the same rights against a person who, knowing or having reason to believe that it will be used to make infringing copies--

  (a) makes, imports, sells or lets for hire, offers or exposes for sale or hire, or advertises for sale or hire, any device or means specifically designed or adapted to circumvent the form of copy-protection employed, or

  (b) publishes information intended to enable or assist persons to circumvent that form of copy-protection, as a copyright owner has in respect of an infringement of copyright."

The CDPA is a little more reasonable than the DMCA, as it basically says that contributory copyright infringment can be prosecuted by the copyright owner under the same terms as primary infringement, i.e. a civil action. What it doesn't do is make secondary infringement a criminal offence, which is the really nasty bit of the DMCA.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[hymie3]

Seeing as I live in the United States, I'm visiting a web site in the United States, mr PineGreen certainly could have violated the DMCA by providing me with instructions on how to circumvent the copy protection.

Don't think he could be arrested for doing something outside of the United States which might have violated the DMCA? Ask
Elcomsoft.
The world is not the USA, but quite a bit of the world who could be effected by this does, at some point in their lives, visit the US.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Anonymous Coward]

The funny thing is that it used to be the USSR where they arrested you for saying things...

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[radish]

Interesting, I didn't realise that stuff was there. Still, the original poster mentioned a link to a site which is publishing said information. You'll probably prove me wrong again, but I dont know of any precedent in the UK which equates publishing a link to publishing the information contained on the linked page. If you see what I mean, there's a level if indirecton there.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

Fair use means he could not get convicted of copyright infringement, it is not a defense to a circumvention violation under the DMCA.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Anonymous Coward]

"especially in the Southern District of New York"

Well, whats left of it.

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Seelo]

The link to the document is what is illegal in the US (at least that's what one district court has decided).

Re:Clone CD can copy it

[Rogerborg]

• Still, the original poster mentioned a link to a site which is publishing said information. You'll probably prove me wrong again, but I dont know of any precedent in the UK which equates publishing a link to publishing the information contained on the linked page

British (by which I mean both Scottish and English/Welsh) case law on linking is still very vague. The few cases that have reached court have dealt with deep linking as a copyright violation (i.e. passing off another site's content as your own by framing it) and they have gone against the linker, but there's been nothing comparable with the US ban on links to DeCSS. Yet.

In fact, the DCPA hasn't seen too many tests, until it hit the news recently when Sony used it to prevent the sale of a PS2 mod chip in the UK. What was particularly interesting about the ruling was that the judge ruled that despite the non-infringing use of making a backup copy (explicitely allowed by the DCPA, unlike the DMCA), simply because people could give backups to each other, that invalidated that defence (consider the implications of that - it seems to say that just because the DCPA says you can make legal backups, it doesn't really mean it, because you can use a legal backup illegally!). Also, on the matter of removing the region code to allow people to play imported games and DVD's, he expressed the opinion that regional licensing was binding, so there was no expressed or implied right to import discs, or even to purchase discs in one region, then to take them with you to another region. We can only hope that these sweeping and over broad judgements fail the laugh test in a higher court.

FTC?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder what the FTC would have to say about marketing intentionally defective products.

Not True

[automag_6]

I'll just put this thing in here and show you all that that story is total bullshi

ATZ0

NO CARRIER

Re:Not True

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, at least on hayes (remember them??) compatible modems. +++ is the escape sequence, then ath0 is hangup.
ATZ was modem reset...
Dman, don't remember my login...

Re:Not True

[Anonymous Coward]

ATZ0 (or just plain ATZ) will simply restore default values of the modem, but not hang it up. +++ and ATH (or ATH0 if you prefer) would do it. How the hell that god modded to 5 baffles me. It wasn't funny. It wasn't factual. It was (bling bling) slashdot.

Re:Not True

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah it's pretty sad but I was thinking "Should'n that be ATH0 instead?" too...
If it was a courier you could do an AT&F and get *factory* defaults...

When will they learn?

[Schlopper]

This is yet another example of how the music industry is just
trying to grasp anything that would limit their so-called losses
due to digital music piracy.

They really should take a clue from the software protection world
and just give up. We've been through hardware dongles, serial keys,
scratched CD tracks.. none have worked.

Remember: It just takes 1 person with a decent sound card (A/D)
to capture the analog signal (from a 'regular' CD player), and there
you have your MP3, ready for your favorite P2P software. ;)

Re:When will they learn?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not even.
DVD/CD Stereo with optical out + SB Platinum.
voila

Does it crash Linux? ;)

[corezion]

I imagine it's something to do with the whole Windows MacOS autostart crap. I'm sure if I wanted to rip the music from Linux it would be just fine. But who listens to Celine Dion?

Re:Does it crash Linux? ;)

[The Patient]

But who listens to Celine Dion?
According to her record label, enough people to pay the freight for all of the other artists on the label.

Re:Does it crash Linux? ;)

[Advocadus Diaboli]

We tried out with a similar copy protected CD on a Linux box. It doesn't play. If you try to make a CD image using cdread the task hangs and you have to kill it.

The problem is that the computer CD drive obviously tries to find out what sort of CD you have inserted and since this CD is not fulfilling any standard it fails.

There are also reports that some audio CD players have the same problems.

For me that simply means: In the future I'm avoiding Sony and they won't get any of my bucks again. Too bad that I have bought a Minidisc player already and now I can't copy CDs to my MD walkman...

Well, I can live easily without buying things from Sony but can they live without getting money from the customers?

Re:Does it crash Linux? ;)

[BigBlockMopar]

We tried out with a similar copy protected CD on a Linux box. It doesn't play. If you try to make a CD image using cdread the task hangs and you have to kill it.

Icky.

The problem is that the computer CD drive obviously tries to find out what sort of CD you have inserted and since this CD is not fulfilling any standard it fails.

Can this not be solved simply by forcing the CD-ROM drive to treat it like an ordinary CD? I know less than nothing about device programming, so can you even toss instructions like this across IDE/SCSI? Work around the drive's on-board disc type detection?

I used Napster to audition music prior to purchase. Since the RIAA shut down Napster, I've stopped CD shopping. Now it looks like I'll be giving The Sony Store a big miss, too. Pity for them - I was in the market for a new Digital VHS VCR for the living room.

Isn't it funny...

[xconslash]

That recording companies can't seem to make any kind of decent anti-piracy, but If they were to hire any one of the geeks who can so easily circumvent their efforts, they could actually make something useful.

Sony Music vs. Sony Electronics

[PinchDuck]

Let me get this straight: If I go shell ~$1800 USDfor a Sony Vaio (like I did 3 weeks ago), then I shell out another ~$20 USD for the disc, it not only will not play in their own damned PC, but it will crash their own system?

That shit is fucked up. I wonder if they make any claims as to the stability of their systems.

Re:Sony Music vs. Sony Electronics

[abe ferlman]

Aibo, go fetch the vaio!

Let go! Bad dog! BAD DOG!

Re:Sony Music vs. Sony Electronics

[liposuction]

Wait. What about this. You buy a computer made by sony with the CD logo on the drive, and then buy their CD with that same logo on it. and it crashes the system. They should all go to jail....

Re:Sony Music vs. Sony Electronics

[Schwarzchild]

Slightly off-topic but Sony Electronics seems to have tried to patent zero-click shopping.

Re:Sony Music vs. Sony Electronics

[MillionthMonkey]

Let me get this straight: If I go shell ~$1800 USDfor a Sony Vaio (like I did 3 weeks ago), then I shell out another ~$20 USD for the disc, it not only will not play in their own damned PC, but it will crash their own system?

OK everybody! Let's all go out and buy a Vaio, and then return it because it doesn't play Celine Dion CDs!

Re:Sony Music vs. Sony Electronics

[Anonymous Coward]

And to think that I am shopping for a new Laptop. I guess it won't be a VAIO.

Why not just use new media?

[NanoGator]

I think the RIAA should just use new media for music and stop using CD's. It'd be really simple for them to use a media format not unlike Nintendo's GameCube media. Heck, with modern compression schemes, they could use a higher frequency range and put all kinds of other doodads in it to make it better than the modern CD.

The media wouldn't have a drive for PC's, and if they patent the technology then nobody could release a PC drive. The only recourse would be for for people to run a cable from the device to the PC to capture the music. No matter what kind of 'protection schemes' they create, they'll never get around the fact that the sound becomes analog at some point. At least this way, they make it less convenient to copy the music.

This would go a lot farther than trying to preemptively punish me for being a criminal.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[lmfr]

"I think the RIAA should just use new media for music and stop using CD's"

They did (maybe not directly), it's called DVD. It has a audio only format.

But even if they changed to a closed format and media, the problem would be that the instaled base of cd players, either in cars, stereos, etc, is way to big to let RIAA change from cds to that new media in a period less than a few millenia... Will still having to release a cd version...

Re:Why not just use new media?

[NanoGator]

"They did (maybe not directly), it's called DVD. It has a audio only format."

It may take a little hacking at, but I'm pretty sure somebody'll figure out a way (if they haven't already done so) to rip the audio off it.

"But even if they changed to a closed format and media, the problem would be that the instaled base of cd players, either in cars, stereos, etc, is way to big to let RIAA change from cds to that new media in a period less than a few millenia... Will still having to release a cd version..."

They have the same problem if they try to restrict the CD's. Then they have to deal with a much worse problem: Not everybody who has a CD player can play their music. If that's the case, who'd trust a flakey media? It'd be far better for the RIAA to say "here is a brand new media, it's higher quality and it's smaller." and get it proliferated out there.

They'd have to transition from CD's to this new media, but once it's done they've bought themselves some time. The music industry has changed media a few times now. Records... 8-track... cassettes... CD... They could do it again. They're about due for it anyway. People's needs have changed. People today are spending money in order to listen to other media, such as MP3's. If that market gets saturated, the RIAA is screwed. Their tactic of 'lets change law to force people to use our ancient business model' has little chance of success, and could very well mean that a new organization rises to take their place.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[Sc00ter]

The problem with that is just about anything you can get on CD, you can almost for sure get on cassette, and probably (might require special order) get on vinyl.. So anything in this new format will probably still be available on non copy-protected formats for a LONG while.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[lmfr]

"They have the same problem if they try to restrict the CD's"

Not at all, in that case the only problem reading the cds are in the players that allow the user to do a few other things that angers the RIAA Lords.

This way, consumers of normal stereo/quadrophonic/etc, home, car and portable systems won't have to buy another expensive device.

"The music industry has changed media a few times now. Records... 8-track... cassettes... CD... They could do it again."

Sure, and if it decides do create a new, high-fidelity (well, higher than the high-fidelity systems that it obsoletes), people will probably change to that one.

BUT only with time. And as of today peaple can still buy k7, so we can only assume that the music industry will still provide cds for a long time.

And as long as there are cds, there is a way to easily create a digital copy in a easily distributed format (ogg, mp3, wav, etc.), so defeating the purpose of a new, uncopiable, format.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[NanoGator]

The reason that cassettes are still available is that people like to listen to music in their cars. From a technology stand point, cassette is a better choice for a moving vehicle. Take that away, and the value of cassettes would be virtually nil. CD Players are dirt cheap and far better quality. It's certainly not because there are people who don't have CD Players out there.

In any case, part of what I was saying was that the 'new media' would be a higher quality than CD. The quality difference between CD and cassette is rather hard on the ears.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[rat7307]

But I put the tape in my CD Player, with the same results!!!

Re:Why not just use new media?

[Shiny Metal S.]

No matter what kind of 'protection schemes' they create, they'll never get around the fact that the sound becomes analog at some point.

As far as I know, they are making experiments on some guy to avoid that effect.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[DarkEdgeX]

Nintendo's GameCube format is nothing more than a mini-DVD, which in itself is not much different than 3" Pocket CD-R(W) discs. I'm sure the designers of DVD, when hammering out the format, made the same provisions. A better anology (I understand your root point) would be making their own format, ala the Dreamcast GD-ROM discs (which, AFAIK, are unlike anything commercially available, physical characteristics aside).

Re:Why not just use new media?

[LRJ]

According to this thread, they may be. The logo on the front of your CD player is there to indicate that that drive will work with any media with a like logo. Has anybody got the 'CD' to see if it's there? If it is, I would think (IAMNAL) there would be a case that it legally should work in my PC (or Mac) drive.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[NanoGator]

There's something different enough about the Nintendo DVD's that simply putting one into a DVD player won't make it instantly readable, but they could easily make a version of the GC that could play DVD's.

I wish I could explain it better to you, but it's been so long since I've read about it that I honestly couldn't tell you what all they did to protect them. Let's just say that anybody who manages to get data off the disk would have to have deep pockets to get the equipment they need.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[lucifuge31337]

"The reason that cassettes are still available is that people like to listen to music in their cars. From a technology stand point, cassette is a better choice for a moving vehicle."

If you spend more than $45 on the CD player in your car you won't have a problem.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[NanoGator]

Both my DVD Rom and CD Burner have 'COMPACT DISC' on the drive. I wonder if a class action lawsuit would be possible under that circumstance. There ARE CD ROMS that play without needing the PC's intervention. If they crash those too, then technically they would be violating the CD standard.

The problem with joining a class action suit is that it'd make us look like we all listen to Celine Dione. *Shudder* I'd rather walk around wearing a shirt that reads "I am a virgin."

Re:Why not just use new media?

[Refrag]

What do you think DVD Audio and Super Audio CD are?

Unfortunately, avoiding these new content-protected mediums has made shopping for a new DVD Video player annoying. I don't care much about movies, they're strictly entertainment. But, I won't accept business getting between me and my music. Music is a part of life.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[NanoGator]

"What do you think DVD Audio [dvdaudiopreview.com] and Super Audio CD [sonymusic.com] are?"

They're not marketing them very heavily. They need to do that before they can actually switch over. I have a feeling they're not doing that at all, they're just providing a premium service for the hardcore audiophiles out there.

Plus, I want the media to be smaller, not the same size. CD Players are rather large for my pocket.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[gd23ka]

"Let's just say that anybody who manages to get data off the disk would have to have deep pockets to get the equipment they need."

I didn't know the Dreamcast console was so expensive :-)

Re:Why not just use new media?

[morcheeba]

They do, and it's called minidisc.

Ignore all the other users claiming it's SACD and DVD - they are too new to make any meaningful comparisons yet. Minidisc, however, has been promoted as a smaller-size compression-based consumer format. Copy protection is built-in; there are no digital outs on any minidiscs.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[TI-83]

they'll never get around the fact that the sound becomes analog at some point

actually, there are high end all-digital systems, where signals are not converted to analog until they hit the speaker. which is something that will, most likely, be more widespread very soon, because more than one digital to analog conversion will start to lose quality pretty quick (depending on your standards).

and, celine sucks, but if sony is using her cd as a testing ground, they most likely won't find as much resistance as they would on, say, moby. not that moby is on sony or anything.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[safiire]

Also the GameCube mini-DVD's are written backwards from normal DVD's. I think it to do with faster load times, most likely as well as to make them incompatible with normal DVD drives.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[tapin]

Copy protection is built-in; there are no digital outs on any minidiscs.

Oh, really?

(Now, if you would've said "Weak copy-protection is built into the spec via SCMS", you would've been right)

Re:Why not just use new media?

[Lumpy]

They dont want to.

and the reasons are cost. it is insanely cheap to press CD's. The last run I did for work was a measely 1000 CD run with 3 color silk screening on the disc, and a jewel case and 3 color printing with a booklet. my cost after all expenses was $1.95 per disc. this was shrink wrapped. Exactly the same thing they give you. and I paid at least 10 times what they pay for 1,000,000 per unit.

Second, making a format that is "better" than CD (already here it's called HDCD or DVD-Audio, sounds great been here for a year in best buy stores for consumers to buy) is that actually putting quality into the mastering and production of the audio costs Gobs of money. you can master a CD to souind fricking amazing. with a almost zero noise floor and awesome dynamic range... they dont because it's expensive to make a cd correctly instead of the crap they churn out.

The record companies are making so much money per disc it is insane.. and changing to another format that lowers their profit margins is nuts.

Online piracy does not affect their profits or income in any way shape or form, they know this, the numbers prove this, and in all truth, it is nothing new that only started happening this decade.. I remember ripping copies to casette of albums for friends back in highschool and it was very common. (college was better you could buy the latest on Casette for dirt.) and a good mp3 is only slightly better than a really good casette recording. (I'm talking quality dennon decks here not the crap any of you are used to.)

basically, the record companies are blatently lying to everyone and trying to whip a power trip on everyone.. Typical corperation mentality.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[morcheeba]

Actually, I was right, for 2 reasons...

1. Those digital outputs were on players, not the discs themselves. (Saved by my own poor choice of words -- that's a talent I should further develop!!)

2. I should have been more specific. What these guys put out is digital uncompressed music - not the original compressed data that was on the disc. To make a copy, this music has to be recompressed again. With lossless compression, this would be no problem -- all the compression/decompressions cycles would yield perfect copies. But, minidisc uses lossy [i.e. f'(f(x)) != x] compression that isn't totally symetric [i.e. f'(f(f'(f(x)))) != x ], so a little noise is introduced into each generation, even if its transfered digitally. more info here. I'd love to hear that you can read/write the compressed digital data!

I didn't know that there were digital outs [even if they're not the ones I was thinking of]! At $460, the rack unit isn't even outrageously expensive.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[tapin]

Yeah, everyone knows that you're never going to get a bit-for-bit copy of a MD using most consumer or prosumer gear. Generational loss occurs even with (most -- see below) pro MD gear. However, a) you have to circumvent the SCMS code (or have/create a 00-master) in order to even be able to get more than one digital generation; and b) you didn't say anything about bit-for-bit copies, you just said "copy protection" and "no digital outs" (you can always make copies through an analog stage, and SCMS defeaters are common -- hence my earlier "weak copy protection" comment)

In any case, from what I understand (I haven't worked with MD too much in the last two years, but I've got a ton of my own MDs that I need to archive -- hence my knowledge of the MDS-E10 etc) the new Sony NetMD (MZ-N707, probably on minidisco.com but I'm too lazy to provide a link) has software that converts MP3 -> ATRAC3 (maybe ATRAC3r) and possibly back. So, if you're actually interested, that just might let you "read/write the compressed digital data".

Unfortunately, no, I don't know off the top of my head of any pro deck that allows you to output before the decompression stage. I've heard rumors of a serial port on some units (not the Sony MDS-E12, fwiw) that will do just that, but I don't have model numbers so this is essentially hearsay. And the NetMD won't let you dump a disc that as recorded elsewhere to an ATRAC3(r?) file on your HD.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[morcheeba]

cool. Thanks for the info. Good luck archiving your MDs!

Re:Why not just use new media?

[NanoGator]

You can use a Dreamcast to read GameCube disks?? O_o

Re:Why not just use new media?

[NanoGator]

" there are high end all-digital systems, where signals are not converted to analog until they hit the speaker"

All I have to do is run a pair of wires from each speaker into a mini plug. I'm no electrician, but that'd be a piece of cake.

They'd have to invent a digital speaker before you can do that, and that just cannot happen unless they invent telepathic headphones.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[DarkEdgeX]

Ah, apologies then.. I've never had a GC or GC disc to try in my DVD-ROM drive, I just took the articles at their word (well, the announcement articles) that said it was a mini-DVD. I wasn't aware it was modified that much. =) I guess the more accurate description of Nintendo's format is that it likely uses a very similar physical layout, but stores the data in such a way as not to be readable at all (and I mean beyond simply using a different file system). Oh well. =)

Re:Why not just use new media?

[poot_rootbeer]

Hardware manufacturers design the media. Hardware manufacturers want to make money. If there was a market for this new "better-than-CD" media (which sounds awfully similar to DVD-Audio to me), and there was a market for PC drives for that media, those drives would be manufactured regardless of the RIAA's wishes.

And as we've seen with DVD-Audio, no one seems very interested in a new audio format. The Compact Disc has only been on the market for about 20 years, and has only been the dominant media for maybe the last 15. We don't want a new format now, especially if it's more restrictive in how we can play it.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[NanoGator]

"We don't want a new format now, especially if it's more restrictive in how we can play it."

This was suggested as a solution for the RIAA, not the consumer. I would MUCH RATHER they use a more restrictive medium than try to make PC's restricted. At least when they sink, they won't take my animation job with them.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[Refrag]

You're right. Best Buy is the store of choice for "hardcore audiophiles." That's why I see a majority of DVD players there with DVD Audio and SACD capabilities and that's probably why there is a good supply of DVD Audio discs thrown in with the DVD Video music discs.

I avoid them like the plague.

Re:Why not just use new media?

[Transcendent]

It may take a little hacking at, but I'm pretty sure somebody'll figure out a way (if they haven't already done so) to rip the audio off it.

...you can get audio from anything if you're willing to go through analogue... no "hacking" needed...

copy protection??

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see it helping much because I can always connect a cd player to my soundcard to record sound through line-in

"Will not play on PC" != "Will damage PC"

[yerricde]

There's a warning in my car owner's manual that admits that pouring gasoline all over myself and lighting a match may cause permanent injury or death. I should sue them!

I am not a lawyer, but I don't see how a rational judge would interpret the warning label "Will not play on PC" as "If inserted into a PC, may irreversibly damage PC hardware". Sony's best bet here is to blame the CD-ROM drive manufacturers and shift the damage to their warranty. In that case, if it's a Sony drive, tough sh*t for Sony.

Re:"Will not play on PC" != "Will damage PC"

[Dr. Spork]

It's funny... my CD-ROM is made Sony! If it got screwed up, by the Sony disk, I don't think there would be much trouble at finding the party at fault!

Is it a marketing strategy?

[joestar]

Will millions computer users go to stores buying this new CD to check if it really crash their PC or Mac? This strategy could really work! Actually in my own case, I couldn't deny that perhaps tomorrow I'm going to buy the CD just to check if it can crash my Mdk8.2 box (although I really doubt about that), and why!

My boss says to me...

[lux55]

At work today, all of a sudden I hear that corporate cringe crap coming out of my bosses office, and him just roaring.

So I go in and say 'what up', and he says to me 'at least we know Celine Dion will still have a job once she gets old and fat.'

Sony being sued, don't think so

[beta21]

I am very sure Sony thought this out in detail. The wording on the back of the CD (warning you not ot play onthe PC or MAC) most probably covers them.

Similar situation is like the warnings on bleach. Don't drink bleach. So by drinking it you can't sue the bleach company even if you wanted your insides sparkling clean.

Re:Sony being sued, don't think so

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

Well you can sue if your coffee is hot.

Ask McDonalds. They paid MILLIONS of dollars in damages.

Re:Sony being sued, don't think so

[10.0.0.1]

So by drinking it you can't sue the bleach company even if you wanted your insides sparkling clean.

You can't? *BURP* Damn.

Re:Sony being sued, don't think so

[Anonymous Coward]

Not necessarily so. My father works for a company whose lawn-mower and tractor division was being sued. Apparently this one guy decided that his lawnmower would be great to trim the top of his hedges. So, with the mower running, he tried to pick it up by reaching under the side. The guy lost all of his fingers, in spite of the warning label on the top of the mower stating that the blade is sharp, can cause damage, etc. He sued the company, and when the judge asked him why he didn't heed the warnings, his response was "I can't read none too well". The judge saw in his favour.

If only this guy was as sharp as that blade...

Re:Sony being sued, don't think so

[Hays]

Similar situation is like the warnings on bleach. Don't drink bleach. So by drinking it you can't sue the bleach company even if you wanted your insides sparkling clean.

Umm... if bleach were originally manufactured to make your insides sparkly clean and 95% of it manufactured today still did, then your analogy would be valid.

I can't put a warning label on a landmine and sell it as a welcome mat without expecting some lawsuits.

This is a compact disc. You put them in compact disc players. You could put it in a Sony compact disc player in your Sony computer and instantly have a Sony paperweight. That Sony put a warning label on it does not make this an obvious or logical thing.

Re:Sony being sued, don't think so

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure their lawyers thought it through, but they would still need to convince a jury. Juries often find against large corporations, especially when they seem to be playing dirty.

Re:Sony being sued, don't think so

[AFCArchvile]

My thoughts exactly. Someone needs to draw the line to stop this technological arms race started by the corporate world to help them boost their net gains. I've seen some wacky things in the course of three years, from DeCSS to the CueCat to Charlie Pride to Cactus to Windows Product Activation to Celine Dion. All of these events involved some huge corporation or for-profit organization putting consumers at a disadvantage in order to protect their assets, and they were all incredibly absurd.

I think it's time for governments to start restricting what companies can do to consumers, instead of turning a blind eye.

Re:Sony being sued, don't think so

[Sabriel]

Sounds like the judge weren't too bright either. How does one warn an idiot that can't be warned?

Re:Sony being sued, don't think so

[amuro98]

Yes, but this is a bit like Zim selling candy bars that contain the disclaimer "Warning: contains nothing but sawdust."

It looks like a CD, the company calls it a CD, I should be able to stick it into my computer, which can read CDs, and have it work.

If I came across something like this, I'd take it back to the store and tell them they're selling defective equipment.

BTW...what does Philips think of all this? Weren't they the ones throwing a hissy fit about CDs that weren't CDs?

Re:Sony being sued, don't think so

[lucifuge31337]

We're talking about US lawsuits. Not things that are happening in the south.

Re:Sony being sued, don't think so

[Violet Null]

Well you can sue if your coffee is hot.

Everyone likes to bring this one up, don't they?

McDonald's was not sued because their coffee was hot. McDonald's was sued because their coffee was hot enough to cause third degree burns upon instant contact with the skin, because they were aware of this, and did nothing about it.

Most people expect coffee to be hot. Most people do not expect it to be 180 degree Fahrenheit, the temperature that McDonald's was serving it at.

Re:Sony being sued, don't think so

[Bitsy Boffin]

>>wording on the back of the CD (warning you not ot play onthe PC or MAC)

So all the die hard Amiga guys shoudl buy this CD, use it to "crash" thier Amiga (presuming it has the same effect) and promptly sue Sony for the dame caused to thier machine or something.

Re:Sony being sued, don't think so

[Anonymous Coward]

What about Sun, SGI, etc etc etc.

Is there a location where we can find these CDs?

[mtrupe]

Does anyone know of a website somewhere where I can find out if a CD is "protected" in such a fasion before I purchase it?

It's not a bug...

[Junior J. Junior III]

It's a feature!

Farther?

[Anonymous Coward]

One has to wonder that since the PS2 is comprised of computer parts and has a kernel writen pretty much the same, if the CD will work in the PS2/PSX

Not that I'm willing to volunteer.

What a bunch of crap

[Reality Master 101]

Is anyone using any critical thinking? How can a particular combination of bits on a CD crash your computer, much less "cause damage to your computer"?

If your computer crashes based on a bad CD, then get a new CD-ROM drive because it's a piece of crap.

Assuming Sony is not doing anything physically wrong to the disk (like making it too thick or something absurd), there is no story here.

Re:What a bunch of crap

[Shiny Metal S.]

Is anyone using any critical thinking? How can a particular combination of bits on a CD crash your computer, much less "cause damage to your computer"?

I used to think exactly the same, until one CD proved me wrong.

Re:What a bunch of crap

[Jaeger]

I'd be willing to bet that this would screw up your average consumer-grade operating system. (And if you were trying even harder, you could probably have a whole lot more success.)

Compile this and put it in AUTORUN.EXE on the cd:

#include <string.h>

void main() {
memset(NULL, 0, MAX_INT);
}

Re:What a bunch of crap

[NanoGator]

Could somebody translate this into english for me?

My idea was to have the autorun program just eject the CD. You pop the CD in, and then it pops back out again. It'd be kind of like the PC gagging on it, hehe. I'm sure it'd take a while for the average user to know that disabling autorun'd turn off that behviour.

Re:What a bunch of crap

[CharlezManning]

memset(NULL, 0, MAX_INT);

this would probably get handled ok by Winshit(ie. just crash the program, not the OS).

Reformatting the partition would probably be a bit more effective.

This could also be a neat way of distributing a Trojan.

Re:What a bunch of crap

[lkaos]

Is anyone using any critical thinking? How can a particular combination of bits on a CD crash your computer, much less "cause damage to your computer"?

You know, I read a paper once on the potential of a computer virus randomly evolving. It essentially relied on the fact that if a virus could be written in 1K bytes of asm data, there was a 1:4096 chance of it occuring in randomly executed bits. Of course, that assumes extremely high entropy in the data being executed.

Anyway, the Windows at least has very poor error checking mechanisms. CDs have specific formats and if the format is broken, then Windows may develop a buffer overflow or something.

In all fairness, I have had Linux hang on bad CD-Rs...

Re:What a bunch of crap

[$carab]

What? Excuse me?

It's rather easy for a "combination of bits" to crash your computer, especially from a trusted, local source (CD-Drive). It's not their computer you're crashing, it's their OS.

Do you remember the infamous screensaver override program? The one that hacked Windows 9x screensaver passwords by exploiting the autorun capability? That is just one example.

It seems to me like this stuff is just dangerous. I mean, if it "crashes" your Operating System, by definition, your OS has malfunctioned and is not working correctly. When that happens, bad stuff, REALLY bad stuff (a la Firmware overwrite) COULD happen.

It has been often said that, in order to stop pirates, the recording industry could employ teams of virus programmers (they could afford them), to create uber-virii, which they could then distribute through file-sharing programs.

That approach, as illegal and horrifying as it may seem, is probably actually more "legal" (common-sense legal, not this crazy "copyright" legal) than Sony's plan. I mean, you've bought the Damn CD, and you should have rights to play it in a CD player. Any CD player. Whereas if someone got their computer crashed due to the uber-virus, they wouldn't really have a recourse (They didn't own the files, after all).

Just my 2 cents.

Re:What a bunch of crap

[coyote-san]

You're confusing the data and the meta-data.

The *data* on the CD can't cause physical damage to your computer. Even if it tried to apply a constant DC signal to your speakers, the hardware would prevent that.

The first-order *meta-data* is the TOC that's been corrupted in the past. It makes a disc unusable without correction, but it usually won't cause physical harm unless the drive manufacturer was unusually dumb.

But some of the second-order metadata is another story. That's the information that the drive uses to adjust stepping motors and signal levels, and it's possible that some combinations would cause damage to some hardware.

I don't know what bits a CD encode, but I know it encodes *some* data that CD burners can't touch. I know that blank CD-R media includes bits that indicate media type, etc.

Re:What a bunch of crap

[Bytenik]

"How can a particular combination of bits on a CD crash your computer"

Quite easily actually. Computers run software. Software has bugs. If there are bugs in the CD driver, then it can crash your computer if it reads something it isn't expecting.

As for the "cause damage to your computer" part, again, it's not that difficult when you are talking about device drivers that control physically moving parts. Bugs can cause drivers to go haywire and start moving things erratically, potentially causing physical damage.

You may say that the devices should have safeguards to prevent this sort of thing, and you may be right, but that would almost certainly increase their cost, their manufacturing complexity, and their failure rate. Imagine if cars had to have safety mechanisms for every possible way in which you might choose to drive incorrectly. It's just not practical, and may not even be possible. As a driver writer you are just expected to follow the rules.

As for there being no story, the fact of the matter is that the bits on a CD are physically encoded onto the disc, so by encoding against the Redbook standard, Sony is intentionally manufacturing physically flawed products. It's no different than intentionally using damaged parts any other consumer product.

Sony should be sued for this, but, as always, it will take some very deep pockets to attempt this.

I recall reading about this here on Slashdot when this topic last came up. Philips was considering suing companies that continued to use the logo without actually meeting the Redbook requirements. Hopefully they actually step up and do it.

Re:What a bunch of crap

[z4ce]

I think that you mean

1:2^4096

Ian

Re:What a bunch of crap

[jareds]

It has been often said that, in order to stop pirates, the recording industry could employ teams of virus programmers (they could afford them), to create uber-virii, which they could then distribute through file-sharing programs.

Why would one execute what one believes is an audio file?

Re:What a bunch of crap

[loudici]

How can a particular combination of bits on a CD crash your computer, much less "cause damage to your computer"?

a CD only becomes a sequence of bit once a CD reader has translated the magneto optic structure of the disc into information. the way this information is encoded is standardized. if a particular CD is violating this standard the decoding from physical structure to information fails. this is similar to a hardware failure, and only in your dreams can drivers handle all and any kind of HD failures. drivers are included in the kernel and are not in user space. a driver failure can have unpredictable consequences.

Re:What a bunch of crap

[mcflaherty]

I clicked thru to the site, and told them "I dont like it" in my preferences. The next page that came up told me that people who don't like this product also like to buy MacOS X.

Re:What a bunch of crap

[Anonymous DWord]

Whereas if someone got their computer crashed due to the uber-virus, they wouldn't really have a recourse (They didn't own the files, after all).

What if they did? I've downloaded songs because it was faster than going into the other room and trying to find the CD it's on. Illegal?

Re:What a bunch of crap

[VivianC]

A CD could be setup to automagically wipe or corrupt the firmware on a drive or damage a computer's BIOS. Upgradeable DVD players use this all the time.

If you never had to upgrade firmware on a CD drive, then you have never owned an APEX DVD Player or a Plextor CDR drive.

Re:What a bunch of crap

[ashpool7]

"List Price: $299.99"
"Our Price: Too low to display."

Oh really? ..click... add to cart as indicated...

$296.99

Hoooo, Amazon! They threatened you with legal ramifications for advertizing a THREE DOLLAR discount?

Re:What a bunch of crap

[Lev_Arris]

I once had a CD-R that didn't get properly written (PC crashed during write) and that could be used to crash EVERY Windows PC in sight. You could disable Autorun and hold the Shift key as long as you wanted, as soon as this disk was inserted into a CD-ROM drive, the respective PC froze completely. (no CTRL+ALT+DEL possilbe, sometimes even the Power Button failed and you had to use the ATX emergency shutdown to power down the PC) I couldn't believe it!

Unfortunately I seem to have lost the bugger somewhere because it was a nice trick to show to colleagues. ("Hey I can crash your PC just by inserting a CD")

Re:What a bunch of crap

[gorilla]

1K bytes has 2^(8*1024) possible states, that's approx 10^2400. Slightly larger than 4096.

How can you tell....

[Carbonite]

whether Celine's CD crashes your computer or it's just one of Windows' normally scheduled crashes.

Seriously though, even though most of us don't give a fsck about Celine Dion, it's only a matter of time until they try this on good music. The time to take stand is now.

Carbonite

We've come full circle

[joeflies]

Before users could play DVDs on Mac and Windows, but not linux. Now perhaps there are CDs that don't play on Mac and Windows, but only Linux

This basically guarantees actual piracy

[Shadarr]

Since people who want to play the songs on their computer will not be able to with the legally purchased CD, where will they turn? Will they say "oh well, Sony knows best" and buy a CD which they can't listen to? Or will they download the MP3s of every song on the CD and not bother buying a copy?

I think I know what Jesus would do.

Re:Dearest Michael

[Matthaeus]

Not that I mean to nitpick, but are you offering the legal advice that I should sue Sony, lose, and then sue Slashdot for damages? If I lose against Slashdot, can I sue you?

Or was your comment meant as incredibly dry humor?

There's Only One Big Problem

[toopc]

For anyone to bring a lawsuit, they would have to admit to buying a Celine Dion CD. I think Sony has nothing to worry about!

Pretty good eh?

warnings get sony off the hook?

[peter_gzowski]

I hope not. Then any company could take away consumer's rights by just issuing warnings. What if I opened up a store with a big sign out front stating, "Warning! Homosexuals are not permitted to make purchases in this store." Something tells me I still might get into trouble... I don't have time right now to cite actual court cases, but it seems to me that consumers have basic rights, and that companies have to have damn good reasons for taking them away.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Digitalia]

The situation you suggest is not the same. One is discrimination and the other is a case of caveat emptor. In the former, case law allows for civil action when discrimination based on various attributes such as sex, gender, race, and such occur. In the latter, there is absolutely no precedence such that we can consider providing a good, with complete disclosure of inherent flaws in said good, to be an actionable offense.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[ender81b]

The scary thing is yes you could do this - although you would piss people off. you can refuse to sell something to a CUSTOMER for any reason, or no reason. However, you can't refuse to HIRE somebody based on any reason. So yes, you could put a huge sign that says "no homosexuals allowed" and be fine with it - but you owuld still have to HIRE them, note this DOES NOT apply to gov't or any business that recieves Gov't funding. As a matter of fact, in recent years many home owners associations have begin to have bylaws that say, basiclly, if you ain't white, rich, protestant, and meet our standards you can't live here. But, of course, realators can't sell/show houses that are in such home associations so it isn't that widespread of a thing -yet.

In essence, sony can do whatever they want with the compact discs as long as they don't violate existing law (yeah, I think they do but the RIAA doesn't). And think of it this way - if you could get this disc to play in your computer you would be in violation of the DMCA.

And citing homosexuality as a case is bad - in most states in the US it is perfectly OK to discriminate against this, including hiring.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

DMCA took away almost all of your rights. The CBDTPA (formerly known as the SSSCA) will take the rest, including the right to independently produce content or use your PC as anything more than an "entertainment" device.

You try to exercise what used to be your rights and the gov't will smack you down hard. Look at the DeCSS and Sklyarov cases.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[TheTrunkDr.]

Yes they should! a warning isn't taking away anyone's rights, all it's doing is saying you shouldn't do something, and if you do we're not responsible for the consequences. You're whole homosexual reference is so rediculous, it's not even a warning, all it says is certain people can't shop there? what are warning them of? a better analogy would be "don't drink the drano" now according to you this deprives you of your legal right to drink drano... well no you can drink it (and when it comes do you, I recommend it). It's just saying bad stuff will happen if you do. By all means go ahead drink the drano, if you survive sue the crap out of them because you know you want to.

This society sickens me, nobody ever takes resposibility for anything, they can always blame someone for something and get away with it. My son killed several people at school and himself, wait I found these video games in his room, they must have made him do it! there's no way my son had any social or psychological problems after all I'm a good parent, and there was never any signs before this. Oh I slipped, fell and broke my leg for no apparent reason, it must be the city's fault! after all it's not my fault I can't walk. Oh I'm fat it must be all those fast food places chaing my ass to a pole in the back room and force feeding me greasy burgers. After all I'm not a gluttonous pig who doesn't get exercise and just sits around all day eating shit that would kill a horse. Fuck grow up and take some responsibility for your lives people!

Can't someone else do it? The garbage man can!

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[worldthinker]

With reference to the Home Owners Association By-Law this is similar to placing these restrictions in land covenants or deeds. There is a prinicple in law that says contracts that run counter to public policy are unenforceble. A business receives a license from the political subdivision be it state or local municipality/county. Each of these counties must uphold statutes and legal precidents including the result of Federal legislation prohibiting discrimination.

Basically a business cannot discriminate in selling to someone based on a "protected class". So, if you try to run a Black person out of your store simply because they are black, you could loose your business license and be subject to a civil lawsuit. There is a federal law prohibiting discrimination in housing and accomodation. Retail establishments fall under the accomodation aspect.

There is some precident in law for consequential damages for software particularly when malice is applied. If it can be shown that the software was designed to cause damage to the PC then a case could be made.

I think however, the most effective case to be made is with the pocket book and not buy the damn junk. Also, we need to start rattling our congress critters to curtail the DCMA and other legislation that gives far too much power to the media conglomerates.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[shepd]

This is a little closer to the mark:

If you enter my theater carrying a cellphone a security guard will take it off you and purposely crush it into little tiny bits. Thank you for visiting *MC.

Sorry, I don't think you can destroy someone's equipment on purpose even if you display disclaimers, unless, of course, the entire purpose of purchasing someone's work would be to have something destroyed (ie: Getting a car crushed at the junkyard). I don't think anyone walks into a CD shop saying "What CD will destroy my computer fastest".

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[ender81b]

The problem though is that people have to *fight* these things actively for them to fail. This alone makes them effective.. only if someone does something truly outrageous (no n***rs not allowed or something on a billboard in front of their business) will they fight it.

Another thing - how is saying 'no asians/whites/people/women' allowed any different than 'shirt/shoes required'? I don't know, just curious.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[kettch]

I wonder if this can be compared to "Beware of Dog" signs. (IANAL, and i don't know if this applies outside of Oregon, USA) As far as i know, if someone posts a "Beware of Dog" sign, that doesn't absolve them. That merely means that they know that they have a dangerous dog, They must still do everthing in their power to make sure that dog does not hurt anyone. Including providing a clear path to the front door. If there is a sign, and the dog is chained up, and i go piss it off and it bites me, then it is my fault. BUT if there is a sign and the dog comes out of nowhere and bites me, then i own their house. I think you also have the right to have the dog tested for rabies, which requires the dog be dead and dissected. Somehow, though, i doubt that the Supreme court is going to require that things to dissected to see why they crash.
However, this does show a precedent that warnings do not make it OK.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well to answer your last question.
Asians, whites, people and women are all a bit cleaner then bare feet and naked chest.

It's a health reason. The store dosen't care, but the health department requires the signs.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[GospelHead821]

This is a good analogy, but I think that as far as it applies to the situation with the CD's, trying to play the CD in a Mac or PC is the same as going over to the chained up dog and pissing it off. You are intentionally doing what has clearly been warned is a bad thing to do. I don't think that anybody's going to be successfully suing anybody over computer problems related to these marked CD's.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

Precisely. If I go into such a theatre with a sign saying "warning, if your guard smashes my cell phone, I will go out to my car, get my pistol, and shoot him in the face", I'm not going to expect to be spending the evening at home if such a chain of events were to occur...

Disclaimers do not allow violation of the law, and last I heard, intentionally crashing computer equipment owned by others was a Denial of Service, and a terrorist action under the Patriot Act, (yea I'm a bit fuzzy there, but it sounds nice)

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not quite...

The warning just state that it will not work and/or crash the computer.

If there are side effects after the reboot other then the lost of transient data of open and not saved documents (like hard disk corruption and stop booting) then... they are in trouble (see computer hacking laws regarding tampering with information - related to viris, hacking and as it seams, CD playing).

And yes, M$ software also suffers that problem...

Have a nice day ;)

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[lifebouy]

No, what is in question here is: will Sony be prosecuted for distributing a virus or not? Because that is exactly what they are doing. If I send out a virus in an e-mail with the subject: Warning, this is a virus, do not open! and some jackass opens it, and they trace it back to me, guess what: I still go to jail. Here we have a company openly admitting they are spreading a virus. I want some justice, please.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[pyite]

Said very well. Mod this up. And to add one more example: "Hmm, whats the best thing I can do with this coffee, the beverage I usually am given at a very high temperature. Oh, I know, I will store it between my legs, near my genitals. It will be nice and secure as I manipulate the pedals which control my automobile with my legs that are holding it. Oh no, the near boiling liquid spilled and my genitals are singed and I am unable to procreate. It must be [insert name of coffee vendor]'s fault." Yea, it's called a Darwin award. Personal opinion: people who feel the need to sue others (whether the defendant be a corporation or individual) for things that were blatantly their fault, they deserve Darwin awards, that is if they didn't already give themselves one. They make our society horrible. They are scum.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[oo7tushar]

actually it's fair use. A CDrom should be playable in any device that is meant to play it. Otherwise it is not allowing a subset of the population to use the CD from a media player on which tariffs have been paid (to allow playability). By tarrifs I mean the money to build a hardware decoder, buyers contribute to the cost and thus have a purchased right/contract to play music media on it. Crashing the computer is damage not only to the system but breach of contract (by Sony) which happenned when you paid for the CD.
Paying for something is having the _right_ to use it without discrimination.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[azosx]

I don't see how discriminating against homosexuals has anything to do with Sony trying to protect it's property from digital music pirates. One must realize, not until that past few years has the computer become a "digital hub". Before, people used to play their CDs the good old fashion way, in their home or car stereo. Since that was what audio CDs were originally designed to do, Sony really isn't taking anything away from the consumer. If it states all over the CD and case that it will not work on a PC or Mac then I guess it's not much different than that sticker on your car that says "Unleaded Gasoline Only". If you're stupid enough to put diesel fuel in, don't go crying about how your car wont start.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Skidge]

Sorry, that was a bad example. The McDonald's coffee law suit wasn't quite so cut-and-dry frivolous as many people believe. The coffee at McDonalds was, as a matter of policy, stored at scalding temperatures. The woman, who was 79, was sitting in the passenger seat, not driving the car. The car was parked, not moving. Many people cite this case and claim to know the facts, but most people are just perpetuating misinformation.

More details on the McDonalds coffee law suit.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Inthewire]

I agree that frivolous lawsuits are a pox on the legal system, but the McDonald's case had a point.

By its own corporate standards, McDonald's sells coffee at 180 to 190 degrees Fahrenheit. A scientist testifying for McDonald's argued that any coffee hotter than 130 degrees could produce third degree burns. Likewise, a scientist testifying on behalf of Ms. Liebeck noted that it takes less than three seconds to produce a third degree burn at 190 degrees.

During trial, McDonald's admitted that it had known about the risk of serious burns from its coffee for more than 10 years. From 1982 to 1992, McDonald's received at least 700 reports of burns from scalding coffee; some of the injured were children and infants. Many customers received severe burns to the genital area, perineum, inner thighs and buttocks. In addition, many of these claims were settled for up to $500,000.

Witnesses for McDonald's testified that consumers were not aware of the extent of danger from coffee spills served at the company's required temperature. McDonald's admitted it did not warn customers and could offer no explanation as to why it did not.

There's a hell of a lot more information at http://www.citizen.org/congress/civjus/tort/myths/ articles.cfm?ID=785

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only is your post absurd, but the moderation is so amazingly retarded that I can't help but cry, PULL THE PLUG!

Fair use means I should be able to play a DVD in my tape recorder, too. So says the moderator. Thus it is.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Anonymous Coward]

Glad you think there's only been one McDonald's coffee lawsuit.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Anonymous Coward]

And it doesn't matter. Have you ever held a cup of coffee? It's pretty fucking hot, right? Fuck, great idea sticking it between your legs.

Great idea trying to drink it in a moving vehicle.

Even better trying to drink it and drive, which alone should cost you your license for supreme stupidity.

McDonald's could know that 5,000,000 stick their head in the coffee, and it's not their fucking problem. They have no reason to warn someone of the fucking obvious. COFFEE WILL BURN YOU IF YOU ABUSE IT.

People live in such abstract worlds where anything that gets in the way of allowing them to plod through life without even thinking about what they're doing, is wrong. Get a grip.

They don't need an excuse or a reason, and they shouldn't have to pay a dime to any retard that abuses the use of an automobile, or McDonald's products.

Pizza right out of the oven is fucking hot, and moronic glutons that can't wait five fucking minutes for it to cool stick the shit in their pie-hole, and because of this retarded McDonald's case have filed lawsuits about it being hot. You people are making a wonderful fucking world for the rest of us with your brainless sympathy for people that by all rights should've been eliminated from the gene pool by their own actions.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're too ignorant to know the side-effects of "crashing your computer," you're a retard.

That sort of idiocy would lead to a world where I'd be sued for my free software, if it caused '9x to shit the bed and make its user lose their data.

[WARNING: THIS SOFTWARE WILL NOT WORK IN WINDOWS]

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Inthewire]

In your haste to say something you must've missed the part where McD's admitted knowing it was unnecessary and dangerous (not merely dangerous) to serve coffee at 190 degrees. That's negligent. There's a difference between hot coffee and dangerously hot coffee.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Anonymous Coward]

No you retarded piece of shit, abusing a product is dangerous and unnecessary. I don't care in the least bit that they capitulated to retarded shitfucks like yourself.

You damage society, and I hope you're proud of the malice your ilk inflict. At least McDonald's doesn't go out of its way to be a shithead.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[oo7tushar]

Except your tape player isn't meant to play a DVD player. If I spend money to buy a tape player then I expect a tape to play in it otherwise it isn't a tape player. It's called standards, they're there for a reason.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Inthewire]

Free Clues if you can think of worthy questions.

Fucktard.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[maxpublic]

Which doesn't relieve a person for being a blithering idiot by putting said coffee - which any rational person would assume is bloody hot - between one's legs.

The 'duuuuhhh!' factor here is rather huge, no matter what temperature the coffee was at.

Max

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[rogersmith]

It seems to me that a better anology would be software... after all, that's what a music CD is. I bought the Mac OS X Public Beta, which very well could have crashed my computer (or potentially worse). Even finished software can harm your computer if it isn't compatible with your system. Do I think this is wrong, or illegal? Of course not. (It's perhaps unfortunate, but that's a different topic.)

If a company wants to sell software -- music or otherwise -- that will only run on specific machines, it seems to me that's their business. However I don't see how limiting your customers' options is good business, especially after they're already quite used to those options. I can't think of one case where that sort of practice proved successful in the end.

The way I see it, the music industry is still pretty new to the world of computers, and they're trying to figure out how to cope. It's an understandable concern, when suddenly people can make unlimited copies of what you're trying to sell, without any loss in quality. They'll figure it out eventually: those that have no intention of paying will always find a way around it, and the rest of us will gladly pay for good stuff we can use how we want to.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Anonymous Coward]

Many customers received severe burns to the genital area, perineum, inner thighs and buttocks.
Okay, I'll admit McDonalds was to blame, if the coffee was still hot enough to burn people's genital area after it had gone through the intestinal tract. But if in fact the people spilled the coffee on themselves, well, they have to look for the blame in the mirror

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Anonymous Coward]

So all they need is to have a fine print on landmines e.g. "Warning. Stepping on landmines might kill or injure you & your buddies." ?

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[pyite]

Moral of the story: if you're too old to not hold a cup steady enough so it doesn't fall on you, it's your own fault. Bottom line: NOT McDonald's FAULT. Anything you do to yourself is your own fault, period.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[pogen]

It's a health reason. The store dosen't care, but the health department requires the signs.

Not true.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Rary]

Besides, there is a difference between "who you are" and "what you are currently doing". In other words, a shirtless person who wants to enter a store that bans shirtless people can put a shirt on and enter. An Asian person who wants to enter a store that bans Asians cannot just put on white skin and enter. He's outta luck.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[rtechie]

McDonald's didn't warn anyone because they assume it was obvious that you served coffee at near boiling-hot temperatures, especially though a drive through window where the customer (presumably) would be driving some distance with the coffee. This would allow the customer to be able to drink hot coffee for some length of time.

Look further into the lawsuit. Stella Liebeck barely saw a dime of the ultimate settlement. All that happend as the result of the lawsuit is that some lawyers got $100,000s of money and that you can't get hot beverages anymore because they might theoretically scald someone if the waitress pours it on you or you spill it on yourself.

Most product liability lawsuits are scams that simply make lawyers rich.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fair use is a right to reproduce and use IP, it has no relationship at all to whether or not you can play or read the media that the IP is distributed on. Your second claim, that Sony is in breach of some kind of contract is also silly. Exactly which contract is Sony in breach of? As long as they aren't displaying the Audio CD logo on the product they have no legal responsibility to make their product work with your player. You bought a product that allows you to play music media that conforms to a standard, that doesn't mean that music companies are required to release media that meets that standard. Now, it may be bad for their business long term, but it is hardly a breach of contract.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[rhombic]

Maybe not the state health departments that barefooters.org checked with-- in my high school job (many moons ago) it was the local health inspector/secret police that would pitch a fit if you didn't have the no shirt/no shoes/no service sign. The store didn't have a choice.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess I can play an eight-track in my tape player, then.

Perhaps a tape reel from the old work closet.

They're called standards, and not using them is called freedom.

Buy a clue with your next purchase of a vowel.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your website requires the use of Flash. My computer does not, and will not ever display Flash. However, my web client can render standard HTML. You are violating the standard for web distribution (HTML), and thusly are liable for damages for descriminating against me.

What's amazing, is your stupid ass probably thinks that you are right. My tax dollars are going to subsidize your education, and it's perfectly clear that in your case, I have earned a rebate.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[Anonymous Coward]

Good job defending mental retardation by displaying why we should drown retarded babies.

Maybe you can find the answer as to why you can't follow a logical train of thought without such claimed axioms as, "must inform Slashdot user why coffee is hot, because it's so hard to figure out" on Google.

Have a nice time being constantly taunted for your sheer inability to reason.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[goatee]

I am not defending the quality of McDonald's coffee in any way here, but the ideal temperature for brewing most types of coffee is around 195 degress F. Thus, it's not surprising that their "fresh" coffee is 180 degrees or more. I'd rather have a fresh cup of HOT joe than a stale one that they let sit for 10 minutes to cool down to "reasonable serving temperature." If I burn myself, it's my own damn fault.

Re:warnings get sony off the hook?

[someone247356]

You said; "It seems to me that a better anology would be software... after all, that's what a music CD is. "

Unfortunately, the Judge in the DeCSS case, specifically said that the movie of a DVD was NOT software. That was why the interoperability sections of the DMCA didn't apply. I would guess that same line of reasoning would apply to the audio content of a CD-ROM.

Not that he's right, that's just what he said.

Personally, I don't think the audio on a CD-ROM is anymore software than the html file that this response is stored in.

Audio tracks, video tracks, text files, they are _data_ NOT software, no matter how badly Bill Gates and his ilk try to confuse the issue.

Reality master 101:

[Anonymous Coward]

>Is anyone using any critical thinking? How can a particular combination of bits on a CD crash your computer, much less "cause damage to your computer"? It's called a virus.

Don't blame us

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of us think she's completely loony as well.

And multimedia CDs

[Agronomous Cowherd]

I just attended the National Fok Festival in sunny Canberra (thats in Australia, home of kangaroos, not the place in Europe). While there and having been completely folked, I picked up a couple of CDs, one of whihc I cannot play on my computer because the multimeda presentation somehow prevents me from seeing the actual tracks.

This was rather annoying and since my PC is my only CD player. There is probably a way around this but I havent bothered trying to work it out yet as I am feeling a bit folked off. P

Re:And multimedia CDs

[Anonymous Coward]

and since my PC is my only CD player

I guess it's time to become an adult and buy a real stereo now. Believe me, after years listening to music on dinky little multimedia speakers, you're in for a treat.

Of course this is a *feature*

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever actually listened to her music?

Trust me, crashing is a good thing in this case.

Finally.....

[unixwin]

...I can convince a couple of my friends that even the computer agrees about her voice....

New Lyrics for the Warbling One

[The Cat]

Near... far... wherever you are...

I believe that the mouse won't move on...

Once more... you close the drive door...

rip, mix, and blue screen...

our prices go up and on...

Gee, I wonder why anyone would want MP3s...

[Anonymous Coward]

When they can fork over their hard-earned cash for a CD which will likely crash their PC?

Earth to Sony...

As luck would have it.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny enough, my wife bought this CD tonight and I promptly told her "we're taking it back". Than, I said "let's see just what, if anything it does to your laptop" and she half heartedly agreed. Low and behold, NOTHING HAPPENED!!!!! It played fine AND ripped fine (just for testing purposes!).

So, I have no idea what the Yahoo! folks are on, but I certainly don't see anything wrong with the CD that would cause anyone problems with their PC.

Re:As luck would have it.....

[GreenHell]

I posted this earlier, but I'll do it again:

Where was the CD bought?

The CD's protected with Key2Audio were apparently only released in Germany and several other European countries. So unless you happen to be European, of course your CD is going to play. (If you are European, it is guaranteed to play unless there's a great big warning on the front booklet, the back of the jewel case, and the CD itself)

Re:Dearest Michael

[Shiny Metal S.]

Since Sony admits that their product is designed to cause damage to your computer system, almost anyone would likely have a good lawsuit against them.

Do you realise that, if someone were to read that, sue Sony and fail, they could hold you liable?

Great! I wanted to sue Sony but I wasn't sure if I can win (I'm ANAL) and I was actually counting on Sony losing all of their money in my lawsuit. But now I can't lose! If I won't get any money from Sony, then I will from the new-day-has-come dept. Thanks Flarners for your legal advice.

Crashes we don't need no stinkin crashes

[madmunch69]

I quess my question is will it crash a sony vaio

Merde

[jpm242]

Meme slashdot n'est pas a l'abri de Celine Dion. N'y a t'il plus de lieux sacrés?

JP.

analog..the way of the gods..

[Anonymous Coward]

CD's blow..records rule..for all you kids out there records are those large black round things gathering mildew in your parents basement

Fair Use???

[khronos]

I understand that this won't play in a PC or Mac CDRom drive because they use the Key2Audio protection software. While most of us may consider that unreasonable, they claim to clearly state it on the outside of the packaging, so the buyer can make an informed choice. So it is reasonable to assume that the informed buyer has chosen to agree to these terms. However, under the Fair Use act, it is also reasonable for the informed buyer to assume that they should be able to make a back-up copy, and most of us aren't rich enough to purchase our PCs (equipped with CD back-up technology) and run out and buy a Phillips CD copier to make our back-ups, not that it would necessarily be any more successful in making back-up copies. So, if we are totally locked out of making back-up copies, which is legal under the Fair Use act, hasn't Sony violated the law by denying us this ability? I wonder if the EFF would be willing to put together a class-action lawsuit for the violation of the Fair Use act by Sony?

Re:Fair Use???

[arkanes]

Sadly, no. The Fair Use provision of copyright law only shield you from prosecution, they don't guarantee anything. And the DMCA overrides most of the fair use laws, too, especially the ones about backups (If you can make a backup with it, you can make a copy with it, if you can make a copy with it, it's a circumvention device).

Is this really new?

[ath0mic]

Now it's just Sony making CDs which cause your computer to crash instead of Microsoft.

Shhh!

[zenintrude]

I work for Sony, and this our only idea as to the killing off of Celine's career. How dare you warn her, have you heard the awful cd?!

Re:Shhh!

[HoldmyCauls]

No, it crashed my computer!

Re:Shhh!

[Demerara]

have you heard the awful cd?!

No I f$%kin haven't - it keeps crashing my F#$kin computer doesn't it...

The artist really doesn't have much say-so...

[Zenjive]

Attention Celine Dion and all musicians: crashing your fans' computers is not a good business practice. No matter what your agent says.

The artists are pretty much powerless to this sort of underhanded behaviour, or so most of them think.

the warning should read:
Attention musicians!!! Go for indie labels or produce your music yourself. Better profits, better control over YOUR work. You are not an indentured servant of the record labels!! Give your producer the finger! Go INDIE!

Re:The artist really doesn't have much say-so...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry.

I don't listen to shitty teenager punk rock or 'alternative' music.

Re:The artist really doesn't have much say-so...

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

This is prolly a silly question. I've heard of indie before... as in indie rock etc. But what exactly is it? Short for independant?

Re:The artist really doesn't have much say-so...

[tkrotchko]

Celine Dion has been one of the most profitable acts for Sony over the past few years. They generally reach a point where they extract a much better deal with the record company than a start-up garage band.

Do you seriously think an act of this earning potential has no say on the use of copy protection from their label? I don't think so. In fact, an artist like this probably thinks of earnings potential as one of their primary motivators, so they're more likely to use something like this if they think it will net them a few bucks.

Re:The artist really doesn't have much say-so...

[Zenjive]

Well, the message was primarily meant for artists in general. Really, I don't give a crap about Celine Dion, she sucks, and even if she was indie I still wouldn't buy her cd's or much less waste my bandwidth downloading a pirated mp3 of her music.

But there have been more and more grumblings from artists of nearly all music genres that the record labels view them as a commodity, and I'm sure some of you will say that technically they are, but the point is that (for most artists, maybe not Celine or Metallica) it's art, not business and art can't be 'manufactured' as a product.

Re:Dearest Michael

[Reality Master 101]

I'm no fan of Michael, but who's the idiot who moderated this as insightful? Just for the record since some people apparently think this guy has a point, this post is complete bullshit and most likely a troll.

Re:Dearest Michael

[nanoakron]

Only the greatest fool would believe that to be valid legal advice.

And you obviously did.

-Nano.

computer likely to crash

[Anonymous Coward]

hmmm.. I guess I would have to be running M$ windows
for that to happen.

Just a PC or a Mac?

[Entropy_ah]

Given that they say "PC or Mac" I take that to mean that by PC, they mean x86 or Windows machines. So I should be able to go down to the Solaris lab here at school and play it, right?
I'm joking of course, but that'd be a nice excuse to tell the store manager you are returning it to.

What about Linux?

[jdwilso2]

Is this really all PCs, or is there a way around this in Linux (cause there prolly is)... Anyway, Don't know if anyone cares, or has mentioned it yet... Thought I'd throw it out there...

jdW

Re:What about Linux?

[compupc1]

My impression was that it was not a matter of OS, but a matter of confusing the drive's firmware. Of course, somebody somewhere will find a drive that's immune and use it (even if it means using the analog CD-->Sound Card connector). Surley the record companies know that these attempts are futile. I mean, with a decent, sheielded headphone cable, a sound card with a low signal to noise ratio, and a wav recorder, it will be hard to detect the difference from a digital rip. Or, people might use a high end cd player with optical out, and a sound card with optical in. In that case, the difference will be even smaller. Such technologies are NOT going to stop piracy. Rather, they will limit legal fair use rights, piss consumers off, and make it hard to even listen to the music in the first place (as more and more people use DVD players and CD drives).

While I certainally do understand their desire to protect their intellectual property, I can't see this as being the way to do it. If I were offered downloads in a lossless, portable, non-restricted (e.g. I can play it wherever, and whenever I please) format for maybe 50 cents a song, I would be more than happy to pay for it. But of course, the danger in such a system is that it bypasses the record companies -- an artist can set up his or her own system with any number of pay-per-download systems already out there. This, more than piracy, is what the record companies fear.

Re:What about Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

If I were offered downloads in a lossless, portable, non-restricted (e.g. I can play it wherever, and whenever I please) format for maybe 50 cents a song, I would be more than happy to pay for it.

Yes, it's well known that one person in each peer group would purchase said music.

And since it would be non-restricted, that's the extent of the sale for the publisher.

They're not that stupid, dude.

Re:What about Linux?

[compupc1]

I know. The point was that myself (the consumer) demands more than the record companies are willing to give, and they know this. They KNOW that unless they put tight restrictions on how consumers can use their product, and back that up with law, the record companies will become obsolete, except for promotion.

They're a cunning bunch eh?

[NewtonsLaw]

Has anyone else noticed that virtually all the music they're trying to protect with these lame systems is the type of stuff that no right-minded person would want to copy in the first place?

Let's see them try it on an album that people might want to copy and then watch the reaction of the public.

They can probably weather the outrage of Natalie Umbruglia's fans (both of them) and that Apalachian guy and his cousin/wife who like Celine -- but just watch how much they'll get stung when they piss off all the real music lovers!

Re:They're a cunning bunch eh?

[TomServo]

I would assume the reason they're doing this is to set some sort of precedent by doing this to CD's that not many people are going to buy, hence not much outrage will come of it. It'll give them a chance to work out whatever bugs they want to work out, see how much they can get away with, and just get themselves into the position they need to be in before the unleash it on the majority of the record buying public.

It'd be a huge public relations nightmare if they did something like this right now with some best selling CD in the US, so why not use the few fans Celine has left to test all this out?

Re:They're a cunning bunch eh?

[MAXOMENOS]

Has anyone else noticed that virtually all the music they're trying to protect with these lame systems is the type of stuff that no right-minded person would want to copy in the first place?

And why not? Consider:

• If the technology fails (and it has), then they lose a ton on R&D but not much on the artist herself, since most of her fans will still buy the CD. They may have even exposed their artist to new markets, although it's doubtful that most computer geeks will buy her crapola.
• If the technology succeeds, then they have a proven copy prevention technology to use on their other, more widely copied, artists (e.g., Britney Speers, Metallica, etc.)

Fact is they're probably going to try every hare brained scheme they can to prevent copying. The hare-brained schemes run out when they figure out that they're wasting their goddamn money on technology that doesn't work and laws that get customers pissed at them.

Re:Who cares about MACs?

[christurkel]

Uh...it's Macs...Not MACs.

How was it labeled?

[KC7GR]

I'm no fan of Celine Dion either. However, given what Phillips(sp?) has put out regarding compliance (or lack thereof) of copy-protected CDs with the Red Book standards, I would be curious to know if this album bore the 'CD Digital Audio' insignia.

If so, and it would not play in a PC, it seems to me that Phillips has the right to demand that Sony stop using said insignia. That'd tip consumers off right away not to buy the thing (not that many would... After all, it's Celine Dion... Bleah!)

Incentive is...

[Anonymous Coward]

...Sony's got your money already and doesn't care about anything else.

April Fools?

[coyote-san]

This has got to be a late April Fool's joke.

The problem is that there's a huge difference between a CD that passively fails to play and one that actively disables the system.

Think about it - if it "merely" disables the eject tray, forcing the user to manually eject the disc, you're going to have some number of users (1%?) who damage their systems in the attempt to extract the disc so they can continue to use the system to read data CDs and other music CDs.

Some will hire lawyers, and you'll soon be hit with suits demanding you to restore their systems *and data* since the loss of the systems was not an unforeseeable accident. Maybe you'll win, maybe you'll lose, but it will cost money.

Worse, some will contact their local governments. Some prosecutors will see boxes damaged in the attempt to extract these discs, and after looking at the disclaimer they'll have no doubt that it was a deliberate, premeditated attempt to damage computer hardware when the owner attempted to do a perfectly reasonable and legal act. You'll soon be facing criminal charges.

News of this so close to April 1st, especially with the FOAF nature (German? CDs, not American ones) makes me think that this was prank with legs.

just out of interest

[Prowl]

would it mangle the PS2?

I knew it!

[fm6]

A fan!

Re:I knew it!

[Anonymous Coward]

no no no, that's not a fan.
these are fans
so are these
fans are a popularity contest. basically, you use them to tell who's smarter.

Guaranteed Free Money!

[Jucius Maximus]

"Not that I mean to nitpick, but are you offering the legal advice that I should sue Sony, lose, and then sue Slashdot for damages? If I lose against Slashdot, can I sue you?"

The following is not legal advice.

Well it seems to me like this is a win-win situation. I can, buy the CD, play it in my machine, and sue Sony for messing up my computer. If I lose the suit then I can sue Michael, and if I lose against Michael, I can sue Flarners for the advice in this post about Michael for saying you could sue Sony. Sweet! It seems like this is a guaranteed way to make some money!

Re:Guaranteed Free Money!

[Matthaeus]

Right! Now we have to write up a poorly spelled e-mail detailing how to do this and ask that people on the honor system send us a small percentage of what they win!

Or better yet, we could sell this idea to venture capitalists for a mere $5000! Guaranteed return on investment!

Pity it's not the nineties again.

I've been waiting for this

[0xA]

Ahh you bastards! Okay so Celine Dion is not much of a loss to me but you guys just tripped over your own feet in a large way.

I have one of these Mini Disc Walkmans. Along with it came this handy little kit to connect my walkman to my PC and record a cd to it.

Now with this CD from Sony Music I am unable to use my Sony PC Link to enjoy this music I have (hypothetically) purchased using my Sony MD Walkman. Hmmmm. Certainly calls into question my plans to purchase a new MD Walkman, the much more expensive MZ-900DPC sometime this month. Or maybe I just won't purchase Sony Music titles any more.

Nice of you guys to put me in a position where I have to choose between your hardware and music titles. I would have figured you would prefer me to purchase both, that's probably why you're the high paid media exective and I'm just the consumer with a love of music and a large disposable income though.

So long and thanks for all the laughs, if you need me I'll be in the Panasonic section at Circut City.

Re:I've been waiting for this

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you kidding? Speaking as someone who works close to the companies in question, I can tell you without a doubt that SEL and Sony Music didn't have a single talk about this. And in fact SEL is probably extremely pissed off.

As with any big corporation, everybody's just trying to justify their next [quarter|year|whatever] budget. Sony Music saw this as a great way to "protect their revenue stream" (blinders, but that's beside the point) and therefore justify the size of the bureacracy at the top of that group; meanwhile, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find out that SEL is busy trying to find a way for their hardware (Vaios, PC Links, etc) to work around it so they can justify the size of the bureacracy at the top of that group.

This is the same exact reason you haven't seen serious, concentrated efforts at providing consumers with downloadable digital music -- who gets the money? It better be in my group, or else why should I spend part of my budget helping you out?

My point is, don't attribute the fact that you can play Sony music on Sony electronics to malice -- it's bureacracy (read:idiocy), and it's not going away any time soon.

(And, by the way, I'm not for a minute suggesting you rethink your Sony boycot. I don't think the concept as implemented here on Slashdot would work, but if someone finds a way to organize the masses of unwashed geeks, I'll be right behind.)

Re:I've been waiting for this

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't be silly. Don't buy a MD. But this instead: www.pjb100.com

Re:I've been waiting for this

[Anonymous Coward]

You should read /. more often, man.

The SONY plan (we'll control everything up to your computer) is public for about two years now.

If you happen to have bought SONY products since, then you're part of the problem, not the solution.

Cheers,

--fred

Re:I've been waiting for this

[mbbac]

Why choose between their music and their hardware? Don't buy both!

Shouldn't the CD's be cheaper, then?

[NanoGator]

So, if Sony has enabled this 'protection' technology on the CD's, then they are (in theory) stopping 'pirates' from making unauthorized copies. Therefore, they are not losing as much money.

Shouldn't they at least reward us for our inconvenience? I mean if Sony said "Tell you what, because we've implemented this new 'protection' scheme, we'll knock $5 off the price of the CD."

If they're not doing that, how can the use the word protection? It's certainly not us they're protecting. They should use the word restriction at that point.

Tell you what, if Sony (or any other Music Label) were to take this approach, I'd have a hell of a lot more sympathy for them. I'm not sure it'd end my boycott, but it'd be a start. They took my music rights away, therefore the music has much less value. So why should the prices be the same? That gives them the image of being super evil.

Re:Shouldn't the CD's be cheaper, then?

[Sc00ter]

But it cost them so much to R&D this new copyprotection.. they need to make their money back on that! You want them to go hungry! :)

Re:Shouldn't the CD's be cheaper, then?

[NanoGator]

Funny, I didn't think the idea of making the CD corrupt would cost that much money to develop. Heh. :)

Re:Shouldn't the CD's be cheaper, then?

[Anonymous Coward]

Every install of Windows I've used creates corrupt filesystems for free. I don't see why Sony should charge for it.

Re:Shouldn't the CD's be cheaper, then?

[glwtta]

This is all nice and everything, but you are coming at it from far too logical and ehtical a position. You don't really think Sony execs are sitting around thinking what the fair thing to do is, do you?

One thing I like about these labels is that now they are very honest about what it is they are "protecting" - it's their revenue streams, and not your freedoms, or fair use. And my guess is, that while the prices "should" be lower, since the don't "have" to be lower, they won't be. The consumers have spoken - they've shown that it's ok to treat them like shit, and they will still buy whatever shit these companies produce. There's no need for these companies to treat anyone fairly to get the most money possible, so of course they won't. If that wasn't the case, they wouldn't be in their current, rather lucrative, position.

Re:Shouldn't the CD's be cheaper, then?

[DirtyCowboy]

This is one of the things that makes me the angriest about all of this (anti-CD copying, the Napster debacle, etc.). The price you pay for a CD already has the price of piracy (their supposed "losses") built into it. Sony and the like are never going to pay for piracy (i.e., lose money on it) -- they're simply going to pass this cost on to the consumers.

It's a lot like the signs you see in stores re: shoplifting or on the buggy corrals at the grocery store (where they effectively tell you to not steal or let your buggy get out of control in order to keep costs down for everyone).

Better yet, this idea has been discussed/recognized in at least one important judicial decision in this area: RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc., 180 F.3d 1072 (9th Cir. 1999)(upholding the legality of the Rio MP3 players). See specifically page 1074, footnote 1 of the opinion. Judge O'Scanlain seriously questions whether the recording industry actually suffers a loss from privacy. Instead, you and I suffer a loss because we pay more for CDs (ever notice that, in the 17 years since CDs were released, their MSRP -- about $18 on average -- hasn't gone down, despite how cheap it is to produce a CD?).

Re:Shouldn't the CD's be cheaper, then?

[Anonymous Coward]

they're simply going to pass this cost on to the consumers

This is a common misconception. For theft to be passed onto the consumer implies that raising the price of an item will increase profit enough to cover the theft losses, but if raising the price increased profit then the price would already be raised. Every company charges the amount that will bring them the most profit, if a company raised the price of anything it would lose money rather than make it. Theft can drive a company out of business, but it won't cause a change in price of an optimally priced item.

Re:Shouldn't the CD's be cheaper, then?

[Anonymous Coward]

Super evil? I don't think so. Disney is super evil. Microsoft is quite evil. I don't think this is even standard evil, it's just stupid. There's apparently a warning which says 'This CD can't be played on computers'. Ok, they cut out some of their potential market while not really protecting it from determined rippers who just love a challenge like this. So what's the point? It's so stupid and not in anyone's interests, including Sony's, that whoever it was who came up with it there should be fired, not for evil but for stupidity.

You are right that it should be cheaper, since it's essentially just a coaster.

Re:Shouldn't the CD's be cheaper, then?

[hacker]

So, if Sony has enabled this 'protection' technology on the CD's, then they are (in theory) stopping 'pirates' from making unauthorized copies. Therefore, they are not losing as much money.

It's also stopping honest customers from using a legitimately-purchased copy of their shiny new Celine Dion cd in their computers. Some of us don't have cdrom rack equipment, and can only listen to music on our computers and laptops. They're not "protecting" us from anything, they're "restricting" us from being able to use the music we may have legally purchased in any way we see fit.

Re:Shouldn't the CD's be cheaper, then?

[John Pfeiffer]

As it's been said, this little trick of theirs doesn't EVEN stop copying. So the whole thing is even MORE absurd. What the hell is Sony thinking? And if you think the prices are ever coming down... HA! Hahaha!! I bet they claim that piracy is at an all-time high and DOUBLE the prices soon...

Ofcourse, just because I think that what Sony is doing is stupid, don't think I actually care: My entire music collection consists of import anime/jpop CDs ^_^

Re:Shouldn't the CD's be cheaper, then?

[Darkstar9969]

Naw...they can afford food at Sony....

Sony has the bad habit of charging too much and forcing you to buy from them. In my former career I worked for a large recording studio in Chicago. The electronic techs were always baffled when they had to fix the Sony timecode DAT decks that are so essential to post-production audio (not to mention they cost out the wazoo). Anyway, our tech isolated the problem to one simple little resistor. He could send me to Radio Shack down the street and buy the resistor for $.15 but, using such "inferior" parts will void your Sony warranty. To prevent this you need to buy Sony's resistor which costs $5!!!

With that kind of markup you can buy a LOT of sashimi for Sonysan!!

Ota! Take IT! And MOD away!!!

Re:Shouldn't the CD's be cheaper, then?

[NanoGator]

You must be a total idiot if you can't even install Windows.

Here's the thing.

[Anonymous Coward]

First, if the discs are *CLEARLY* labelled as to the fact that they may cause damage to your system (And crashing = damage. Journaling file systems ain't the perfect solution, eh?).. Well, there's not much you can do. If they aren't, you can probably sue ala the Crazy McDonald's Lady Who Thinks Coffee Isn't That Hot. Until they do put the labels on the discs.

If the discs are unlabelled, there's grounds for legal trouble. Word of mouth doesn't cut it in this sort of thing. If it did, McDonald's, Tobacco Companies, etc. wouldn't have been raked over the coals.

If, somehow, they fail to label the discs, and get off scott free, it then becomes obvious that it is my right to walk into Sony's headquarters and start destroying equipment. Indeed - here's my word of mouth. Pissing off your consumer may cause damage to your equipment.

I'll even be willing to stick a label on my forehead stating that.

Inflammatory Headline?

[jonbrewer]

If that's not an Inflammatory headline, I don't know what is.

Besides, who puts CDs in their PCs to listen to them anyway?

(It was rhetorical, but I'll answer anyway: middle aged administrative assistants who won't mind waiting on hold for an hour to complain once they find out that it's the record company's fault their PC crashed. And they will find out. Whichever geek comes to help them will make it known that it's not the PCs fault.)

Re:Inflammatory Headline?

[chefmonkey]

The headline is hardly sensationalistic.

Did you read the article? "Sony Intentionally Crashes Customers' Computers" is merely a rephrasing of what Sony actually claims:

"The CD will probably cause a system to crash, but it will not alter anything," the [Sony] spokeswoman said. "And it won't eject properly, but that's just because the computer has crashed."

Wankerdom. Where is the technical explanation?

[Pussy Is Money]

If this was any other subject most of you freaks would be going on about how input data should never be able to crash the system. We would get to marvel at commentary such as "let me bore you with my recently acquired knowledge of the garbage in garbage out principle", "my program never has buffer overflows because I always jerk off before, after and during the writing of code" and the +5, Pompous "Without wanting to.... However... Although... Reasonably... Microsoft... Still... Granted... <funny tag>... -- Witty Sig".

But I suppose the shoe is on the other foot now. Meanwhile, which one of you wankers a) has actually observed a computer crashing as a result of this and b) has a technical explanation for same?

Violates Fair Use

[puppetman]

If I own a CD, I can make a tape of it for personal use.

If I own a bunch of CDs, I have the right to rip and burn tracks from all CDs onto a compilation disk.

Moreover, a computer is a valid choice as an audio player. My wife and I don't own a stereo - we use a computer with speakers.

Sony is a large (music, games, computer hardware, audio-video, cameras, toys) corporation that frequently employees proprietary standards to gain market share. They shouldn't be rewarded for this.

Personal note - buy nothing from Sony.

Re:Violates Fair Use

[Anonymous Coward]

You have the right to do whatever you want with your CDs. You can figure out the method you want to use to 'back up' the music. You've got a lot of freedom in what you're allowed to do with your CDs. You can even take three of them in your hands and juggle them while singing the Star Spangled Banner in falsetto.

It is not Sony's responsibility, or obligation, to make it easy for you to do any of the above.

You can't sue them if the ripping software you use won't work, or if you drop the CDs while juggling them and kill your cat.

And really, guy. You're married. You're supposed to be a grown up now. Be good for yourself. Go out and buy a real stereo. Don't you get tired of the whine of the fan/hard drive when listning to music?

Re:Violates Fair Use

[puppetman]

Yes, but the CD has that little symbol on it that indicates it conforms to the blue/red book standard. My CD player on my computer has the same symbol.

The CD that Sony has released is no longer compatible.

Stereo shemrio. Married doesn't make you rich, or an audiophile.

Bull

[Anonymous Coward]

"...there is absolutely no precedence such that we can consider providing a good, with complete disclosure of inherent flaws in said good, to be an actionable offense."

This is complete bullshit. First of all there are
a number of cases that have addressed exactly this
topic. Second of all, just because you don't know
about any of these cases does not mean they don't
exist. So, you are either an ignorant moron, or
you are making a poor attempt at deception.

Re:Bull

[Anonymous Coward]

Name one. Name a single case where a company, individual, or entity of any sort sold something to someone, without any deception, with a complete and honest admission of the flaws in the product, and was successfully sued in US court. Come on, I dare ya. That's the point the original poster was trying to make.

Re:Dearest Michael

[mwalker]

I'm no fan of Michael either, nor am I a fan of known Trolls like "Reality Master".

The parent-parent post has a good point. The reason that major news organizations such as CNN, Newsweek, etc., all preface "Osama Bin Laden" with the phrase "alleged terrorist" instead of "terrorist" is that if you publish something you cannot prove, as a news organization, you can be held liable for the result.

When Slashdot publishes as fact the point that Celine Dion's CD is cause for a no-lose lawsuit against Sony, that could be a potentially bad situation. What's the source? Is it opinion? It's stated as fact!

The clever trolls are always the worst; nice one RM101.

The REAL reason behind this

[Rui del-Negro]

This was the only way a Celine Dion record could get free publicity on Slashdot.

Re:The REAL reason behind this

[Dirtside]

That's like Isaac Hayes getting free publicity at a Klan rally. Why would he want it? :)

I can see the new commercial now...

[DA_MAN_DA_MYTH]

You wake up in the middle of the night to some distressing news...

'I was patching the web server, and uh I was like playing a CD and uhhh... the server's down.'

Then suddenly you realize your so ready for IBM, (Or at least an admin that has better music tastes)

Dear "flying monkey 6":

[Anonymous Coward]

I happen to have the likeness of a flying monkey tattooed on my scrotum. Your nick reminded me of it. That is all.

Works for me!

[dokhebi]

I bought this CD a few days ago and put it in my PC at work. It played with no problems.

I wonder what it would do under Linux? I must try this at home...

Work system info: IBM PC 300PL, Win2K (5.00.2195 Service Pack 1), Windows Media Player v7.01.00.3055

Maybe we should just...

[dotgod]

Maybe we should get a couple people to buy these and rip them manually (ie. from stereo into pc) and then give away as many copies of it as possible just to spite the record company. Once they realize that people (most of whom don't like Dion) are deliberately copying their CD, they may get a message.

Re:Maybe we should just...

[Anonymous Coward]

I know something even cooler you could do.

It says right on the package on many hammers that you shouldn't slam two hammers face-to-face together with force. One or the other of the hammerheads will shatter and you might go blind.

However, you could fool those dastardly hammer companies by using rubber mallets! Yeah! That would show them. They'd get the message!!!

Re:Maybe we should just...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well actually, I'm sure if people actually had a problem with that and went to rubber mallets, the hammer companies would get the message. Somehow I don't see this ever becoming a problem for enough people...

good thing she sucks

[Leimy]

or that might bother me.

RIAA's fatal mistake

[Devil's BSD]

If you can play it in standard CD players, you can use a Toslink interface to rip it to another CD or to your computer if you have an interface. Come on, it's not that bad.
Besides, we all know the RIAA will be defeated. Has Napster's shutdown killed MP3? No, Microsoft even jumped in themselves with WMA (more likely to give you a BSOD than Celine Dion's CD!)

Ya know, there are CD players that use CDROMS

[BrookHarty]

First off, "will not play on a PC or a Mac" doesnt say DVD, Advanced CD players, or MP3/CD combo units.

My DVD player uses PC cdrom unit in it, it plays cds/vcds/svcds/mp3s also. I play my CDs on it all the time. It is not a PC. If a CD ruined my DVD player, Id take the company to small claims court, and talk to the local District Attorney.

Re:Ya know, there are CD players that use CDROMS

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a cool trick you can use.

The label also doesn't say "do not smear peanut butter on your CD before playing it in your cheapshit DVD player that 'uses a PC cdrom unit in it.'

Smear some peanut butter on the disk! They didn't warn you! It will wreck the player! You'll be able to sue them! You'll get enough money to retire!

No such words

[rf600r]

I have the CD right here. It has no such statements.

Re:No such words

[GreenHell]

And where did you buy it? (Geographic location, ie country please) (And does it crash in your machine?)

Re:No such words

[semeniuk]

And _if_ it doesn't crash your machine can you please rip it and put it on Gnutella for the rest of the world to enjoy :-)

What CD Media World says about key2Audio

[akac]

With key2audio Sony DADC is offering you the optimal protection for your Audio CD's. Using highest quality and ensuring best compatibility, key2audio was developed to support the music industry in protecting its music from illegal duplication and copyright infringement. Without altering the music data stream, key2audio CD's still offer crystal clear sound and no read fault errors.

During glass mastering, several special hidden signatures, similar to a unique fingerprint, are applied outside the music data area. These signatures can neither be duplicated by CD-R/RW burners, nor by professional glass mastering systems.

Audio discs protected with the current version cannot be recognised by standard CD/DVD-ROM, CD-R and CD-RW drives, thus they do not play on PC, Apple Macintosh or other systems equipped with CD- ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-ROM and DVD-R devices. This ensures the highest efficiency currently available. Due to the fact that key2audio(TM) protected discs do not play on PC, no ripping is possible. Analogue copies, on the contrary, can be made to any analogue devices. (eg MC).

key2audio does not alter the sound quality in any way. Music data is not accessed, the bitstream is exactly the same for a protected and an unprotected CD (no C2 errors/uncorrectables in the music data). Only the copier notices a difference, for the listener, the sound remains the same.

The audio part completely complies with Red Book standard. In addition, a CD protected with key2audio still guarantees a maximum playing time of 77 minutes and therefore does not limit the pleasure of listening time at all. Full ISRC, UPC, CD Text capabilities are supported.

The key2Audio work on most CD Readers but on a few (more expensive) readers they fail to work.

Re:What CD Media World says about key2Audio

[Anonymous Coward]

The key2Audio work on most CD Readers but on a few (more expensive) readers they fail to work.

Real bright on Sony's part, pissing off the people who obviously spend lots of money on music... (Of course, none of them are probably buying this CD anyways, but you know...)

Re:What CD Media World says about key2Audio

[korgull]

That's fun. I got rid of my old stereo set two years ago and use a PC with an amplifier as my stereo set/DVDplayer. So, I use my DVD-ROM drive to play audio CD's,DVD's,VCD. I like this kind of scalable system and Sony can be sure that I won't buy a stereo set to play any of their faulty CD's if I can't play them on my nice 'stereo' set.

Sony probably got this method patented. It would mean that in case other companies want to use this method as well, they'll pay for it. The end result : CD's will be more expensive and copying will be even more attractive :-)

Now that's what I call Protection

[ziriyab]

Can't Sony cross-market this as a system that protects the user from Celine Dion?

Re:Now that's what I call Protection

[Technician]

Can't Sony cross-market this as a system that protects the user from Celine Dion?
I don't think this can be marketed as a system that protects the user from Celine Dion. Unfortunately they will still play in the stereo and walkman. Also there are other sections not in this format that will still play in your PC. If they release a that will detect and not play any Celine Dion, they would have something.

seems pretty simple to me

[areiosoltani]

look, there's a "compact disc" logo on my CD player at home and a "compact disc" logo on CD-ROM in my computer. if sony wants to sport a "compact disc" authorized logo on their music, it had better damn play in both or else it happens to be an optically-read 4.5" platter that is misusing red book certifications and patents. case closed.

Re:seems pretty simple to me

[Anonymous Coward]

But is your case really closed?

Geeks like you are usually proud that the case hasn't been on your PC in years. In fact, it's likely that the cat sleeps in your case, as you're one of those guys who has the full tower case, but almost nothing in the case (that lil 60 gig drive is tiny!), cuz it's a dicksize thing.

I miss fair use

[ColGraff]

I really wish the music industry would realize some of us have really, really nice sound systems hooked up to our computers, and that we like to listen to music on them - without any intention to pirate that music!

The problem with music as a business...

[NanoGator]

... is that it's waaaaaaay too easy to replicate. I think the RIAA chose a very bad product to produce if they are concerned about non-paid-for copies floating around.

All I have to do is download the lyrics and I could sing the song. Garage bands could easily do a nice rendition of the song that'd be worth listening to. As a matter of fact, re-mixes are quite popular out there. A lot of remixes don't even have elements of the original score in them. Sounds like a problem, doesn't it? They may be able to stop me from ripping a CD, but there's no way on Earth they could stop somebody from recording their own rendition of a song.

It seems to me that the RIAA is being rather unrealistic in their choice of products to make. I just don't see how they could expect to end all 'piracy' for good. The worst part is that they are blaming the wrong people.

For example, Eisner said that Apple was promoting piracy with their "Rip/Mix/Burn" campaign. His concern is that people will think that music is free and that they don't have to pay for it. But wait a minute, people were trading MP3's LONG before Apple was airing any commercials. If anybody thinks that music is free, its because it's played on the radio!

When the music is played on the radio, they're basically saying 'music is free, just enjoy it.'. That's part of what made it fun to go buy songs. What you were buying, then, was not the right to listen to it, but the convenience of listening to it whenever and wherever you want. CD's, at the time, were the best way to do it.

Then MP3's came along. Oopsie, the RIAA didn't stay on the ball, and now their business model that THEY CREATED is turning against them. The amusing thing is that they are playing the wrong hand to fight it. I can't believe they are actually surprised that people may think music is free. This is not a new occurance, this is what the RIAA taught them!

If they want to fight it, they need to come up with a MORE CONVENIENT solution, instead of trying to make it illegal. Underage smoking: Illegal, happens anyway. Underage drinking: Illegal, happens anwyay. Smoking pot: Illegal, happens anyway. Why on earth do they think they can stop it? What they're FAR better off doing is saying "You can buy MP3s (or a variant) from us! They're cheap, and you can download any song you want really really fast. Buy an album and get a discount."

Better yet, they'd find ways to make money through the channels people are using to get songs. What if they released an MP3 version of a song with one of the singers at the end saying 'Mention this code: JdWt when you buy the song and get $2 off the album purchase.'?

They have so many options they could use, but they chose the one where they piss EVERYBODY off. Nice.

Re:The problem with music as a business...

[Rogerborg]

• What you were buying [on CD] was not the right to listen to it, but the convenience of listening to it whenever and wherever you want

Uh, mistaken belief. You do buy the right to listen to it, and in a restricted way. For example, you can't listen to it where more than six people might hear it, because that's a public performance, which the license you bought doesn't cover. Neither does it allow you to make copies of any sort. Case law - not copyright law - has decided that courts will probably not convict you for breaching the license terms if you do this, but it's always going to be a defence, and not a right. And (here we go again) there is no clause in Fair Use that covers making copies for personal use. That's case law again, and case law is just an opinion until it reaches the Supremes.

So you'd better be sure that the exact case you're interested in has been heard in the Supremes. For example, the Rio was let off in Appeals, and on the technicality that it didn't perform the copy from a CD, it was only a PC peripheral, and the infringement (if any) was done on the PC. AFAIK, no case has yet been heard that covers ripping from CD to a hard drive. We really need the RIAA to prosecute Microsoft over Media Player. My god, who do you cheer for in that fight?

Incidentally, I completely agree with your other statements. If the publisher makes buying a license or playing media so inconvenient that we'd rather not do so, then they've already lost the sale, and they can quit whining about "lost" revenue. They never had it in the first place, nor do they have any right to demand it. If we then choose to obtain an unlicensed copy, then that's a separate issue.

Re:The problem with music as a business...

[Glock27]

... is that it's waaaaaaay too easy to replicate.

That's the effect technology tends to have on things.

The RIAA is in the same position the book-producing monks were in after Gutenberg's press was invented...

Re:The problem with music as a business...

[NanoGator]

"The RIAA is in the same position the book-producing monks were in after Gutenberg's press was invented..."

You bring up an interesting point, what about books? One thing that I really like about the book industry (is that an industry, heh) is that they have embraced technology and have released 'e-versions' of some books, and they're cheap!

They didn't fall due to horrific piracy. You'd think the RIAA would have noticed that.

(yeah yeah, I know it's not quite the same. I think the average consumer is honest and will pay for what he acquires in most cases.)

Re:The problem with music as a business...

[Glock27]

Another interesting point.

Both books and music are making the transition from a tangible medium to an intangible one. I think one problem is that people have a tough time perceiving value when nothing physical is involved. That is really an education issue.

I think one difference between books and CDs is the perceived value. Personally, I think books are a fairly good deal (though at $8 for a paperback they are getting expensive - I usually buy them discounted at $3-$4 if possible). CDs, on the other hand, cost less than $1 to produce in quantity. (I'm curious what it costs to produce a paperback book.) I find it hard to believe that a $13-$18 sale price per CD is necessary to feed all the poor, starving folk in the recording industry. Also, don't the musicians make just a small amount per CD?

A better plan is needed, and it is not CD copy-protection! Maybe providing a better value to consumers would be a good start...

Re:The problem with music as a business...

[NanoGator]

What customers want is to buy the songs individually. At least that's what I want. I don't know anybody that downloads 'albums', just songs.

Technically, if you're downloading individual songs, then the Record Industry isn't losing anything. Since all they sell are the whole albums, then technically they aren't hurt until somebody downloads an entire CD. I bet that doesn't happen NEAR as often in the illegal sense. (i.e. somebody replacing an album of a CD that was destroyed...)

Re:The problem with music as a business...

[not_lurking]

blockquoth the poster:

All I have to do is download the lyrics and I could sing the song. Garage bands could easily do a nice rendition of the song that'd be worth listening to. As a matter of fact, re-mixes are quite popular out there. A lot of remixes don't even have elements of the original score in them. Sounds like a problem, doesn't it? They may be able to stop me from ripping a CD, but there's no way on Earth they could stop somebody from recording their own rendition of a song.

But how could a garage band duplicate someone's complex and subtle playing style? Or a voice? Or the endless quirks of effects, or synthesizer sounds? And do you assume that the thousands of dollars of equipment (instruments and production gear) that go into even a modest recording could be be reproduced on a low budget, or with some software? There is far, far more to music than notes, lyrics, and basic arrangement. It is the artful combination of all of these things that makes a truly good song. It's true that music is easy to duplicate -- it is easy to duplicate the composite signal. Your claim that it is easy to duplicate from it's "bulding blocks" is ridiculous.

Re:The problem with music as a business...

[NanoGator]

Did you read the part where I said this:

"Garage bands could easily do a nice rendition of the song that'd be worth listening to."

I never ever said they could duplicate it exactly. I said they could do a new rendition of the same song.

Re:The problem with music as a business...

[NanoGator]

BTW, you should listen to Weird Al sometime.

Re:The problem with music as a business...

[adrenalinerush]

They may be able to stop me from ripping a CD, but there's no way on Earth they could stop somebody from recording their own rendition of a song.

Actually, that's what copyright law is for. Ever heard of *royalties*? Yes, you can perform other people's songs in certain contexts, but if you're getting paid to perform them or record them, then you owe the copyright owner some $$.

Re:The problem with music as a business...

[NanoGator]

The point of my comment is to expose the serious hole in the CPBTPA (sp?). Yes, technically you'd owe the copyright owner royalties. The point I was making is that increasing demand for music by decreasing the abililty to play it would spawn some creative solutions.

Re:The problem with music as a business...

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe -- but in this context, that's hardly useful. If you're
suggesting that garage bands with the purpose of doing free renditions
of copyright-restricted songs could act as a sort of circumvention
device, then I disagree. For them to produce a song that's as good
(according to any listener) as the original would require as much
blood, sweat, and tears as the original, and would really amount to
creating new works and releasing them into the public domain
(presumably). That doesn't change the fact that the originals form a
huge body of work that are still under restrictive copyright measures.
The few remixes that I've heard and liked were just as copyrighted as
the originals.

I'm not suggesting that these dirty copy-prevention measures are a
good idea. I know people that run independant labels, buy vast
amounts of music, but still swap music and download mp3s. I can
picture this garage band idea of yours being a solution if we were in
some kind of oral-history-tribal-music context. But we're not.

Re:The problem with music as a business...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a friend who is a weird al fiend, and I have heard quite a bit
by him. Whether I like him or not is beside the point -- his
renditions constitute new works that don't convey the original ideas
is any significant way.

Would you suggest that if enough Kafka fan fiction was freely and
widely available, but the works of Kafka himself were only available
under the most restrictive copy-prevention measures you can imagine,
that this would somehow lessen the loss to the public caused by not being
able to read Kafka?

eh? huh?

[matth]

I still don't understand how it can playi n a regular CD player but not on a CD player on a computer?!?! how does it know.

anybody screaming DMCA?

[ce110ut]

...well?

Panic! Horror!

[Ageless]

Not to shock anyone, but pouring Liquid Drano down your throat will cause severe burns, injury and possibly death!

While I don't agree with copy protection on CDs, if the front of the CD says, "Do not play in a PC or a Mac" and you do it then Sony is not "intentionally" crashing your computer.

When you ignore the warnings, bad things happen. Don't do it.

Re:Panic! Horror!

[SuiteSisterMary]

There's a mighty big difference between what the label says, which is:

will not play on a PC or a Mac

and

will damage a PC or Mac

Kind of like 'Will not function in water' and 'will electrocute you if used in water.'

Re:Panic! Horror!

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

What If I don't own the CD, And I'm at a friends place, and pop it in their computer. Or they bring their CD's over in a cd book to play at my house. Unless those warnings on the CD it's self are damn obvious, then it would be easy to accidently pop in a "protected" CD.

Re:Panic! Horror!

[Anonymous Coward]

A label on the front of a CD saying "do not play on a PC or Mac" is like a label on the front of a car saying "do not drive on public roads."

I.e., it makes the merchandise pretty worthless.

Re:Panic! Horror!

[clare-ents]

Okay,

Suppose it does play on my linux machine via cdparanoia or similar.

Can I sue them for mislabelling it?

Not that great

[legLess]

Apparently these CDs still adhere to the Red Book (somehow). But the consensus seems to be that the Key2Audio protection isn't that great:

• Bypassing it: CDFreaks article, although I don'tthink they're the original posters of this method.
• Hardware solution: AOpen CD 56X AKH/A80 (unconfirmed)
• Windows software solution #1: EAC. This is truly excellent software in its own regard, and apparently it bypasses Key2Audio nicely. You're better off Googling for EAC, as the site isn't updated often. Also check out the EAC mailing list, and this message in particular.
• Windows software solution #2: CloneCD. Many swear by it, but I haven't used it myself.

Most importantly, the tests are over - this is for real. It seems that Celine is Sony's biggest-selling "artist" - they wouldn't use her as a beta test.

Re:Not that great

[Fnkmaster]

I don't know what to be more scared of. The impending copy protection doom that we are facing, or the sheer horror of the fact that Celine Dione is Sony's best-selling musician.

Re:Not that great

[oyenstikker]

I had one of those AOpen A80 drives. I would put perfectly good discs in it, and Windows 2000 would spontaneously reboot. Linux would crash. I sent it back for a refund.

Re:Not that great

[Anonymous Coward]

>It seems that Celine is Sony's biggest-selling "artist" - they wouldn't use her as a beta test.

A bit of offtopic trivia, Pretty Fly (for a white guy) is the Biggest selling Sony single of all time and Americana (the Album on which it featured) is the biggest selling album

Please, learn how to read and write

[Anonymous Coward]

Exept they have a BIG warning sticker on the front.
If I was the store manager I would not exept returns on this cd.
"Sorry pal you were the idot that bought Celien Deion".

I think you meant this:

Except they have a BIG warning sticker on the front.
If I was the store manager I would not accept returns on this CD.
"Sorry pal, you were the idiot that bought Celine Dion."

I don't know which is more worrying, the fact that you can't distinguish between two totally unrelated words like "except" and "accept", or that you can't spell a simple word like "idiot".

Re:Please, learn how to read and write

[red5]

I'm on 4 hours sleep and more caffeine then should be legally allowed.

That WILL boost sales...

[maxmg]

Just think about how many people on this list will now go out and actually BUY one of the damn things just to disprove Sony's claims. I shudder in revulsion at the thought of owning one of her records, but the hacker in me really really wants to find out...

This report is false.

[cos(0)]

A friend and I both bought Céline Dion's latest CD ("A New Day Has Come") in one of the first few days that it came out, brought it home, played it on the computer, ripped it to PCM using Exact Audio Copy and encoded it to Ogg Vorbis... this CD did absolutely nothing to the computer. The ripped files are perfect without any artifacts.

I don't know what this report is talking about.

Re:This report is false.

[Anonymous Coward]

May I ask you a simple question? Where (what country) was the CD purchased in? And did the version you bought have the warning labels on it?

Re:This report is false.

[cos(0)]

The CD was purchased in the U.S.A. at a Wal*Mart Supercenter. It was the American version, without any stickers or warnings. However, it did not need any because the CD is perfectly fine and seems to comply to all CD standards as far as I know.

Does it play on Linux?

[TheoFish]

The wording was "PC or Mac" right? What effect does it have on Linux, and how does it achieve this computer crash effect?

Oh, don't worry about it.

[VistaBoy]

They're Celine Dion's fans. Their hearts will go on.

Lawsuit threat?

[mr_sparkle_79]

Since Sony admits that their product is designed to cause damage to your computer system, almost anyone would likely have a good lawsuit against them.

I get the feeling Sony doesn't have to worry about any lawsuits concerning this. If someone wanted to sue, they'd have to admit to buying a Celine Dion CD, and I just don't see that happening.

How Long?

[Kushrenada]

So it will be more then a few seconds befor it is on P2P file sharing?

Re:How Long?

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet again we see a case of someone who didn't RTFA (read the fine article)

It already is more than likely, you see, not all the discs were released using this tech., just ones in various parts of Europe, therefore there's still tons of copies around that don't have this feature.

Not a big deal.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Hollings/Disney bill is a big deal because it seeks to mess with our hardware with us having no choice. Copy protected cd type things that won't play in a computer aren't a big deal because we have a choice, simply not to buy the damn things. They're not for us anyway. Entirely different demographic, obviously, since they wouldn't put this sort of protection on a cd type thing aimed at slashdot readers! Let them produce shit for customers who buy shit. It's only a big deal when they force shit on us.

They give computers to anyone these days....

[Anonymous Coward]

Do they give computers to people who listen that noise?

Watch me do the same.

[billcopc]

Some cluebit figured out he could just create an autorun.exe out of random bytes and crash windows. Now he's sold the idea to Sony and they're going to make a big scene out of it.

I know why I'm broke, it's cuz I'm too smart for the rest of the world. Stupid ideas sell much better.

Money Talks:

[TEB]

When a corporation does something like this it is labeled "protection" or "innovation". When a 15 year old does the same thing with a virus or "hacking" over the internet it is labeled a crime. The corporation gets congratulations for protecting itself from the public. The kid gets prison time. Free enterprise at its finest.

I had a funny sig but a large corporation trademarked it and sued me into submission.

my take

[RestiffBard]

all of these cds that come out with the protections on them. Has anyone noticed that they're not exactly the sort of music that copy protection circumventers really care to listen to anyway? Stories like this will interest me when someone like moby puts out a copy-protected cd. its a bit more likely that crackers would be pissed if they couldn't get a dose of moby. or fatboy slim or insert the name of your favorite artist here. Do crackers listen to Celine?

This encourages people to pirate CDs!

[NewtonsLaw]

How thick are the recording companies?

They think that by copy-protecting their CDs, people will no longer burn backups for the car or for their portable diskman players -- both environments where it's easy to accidentaly scratch/wreck an expensive original.

What they don't realize is that instead of buying legal CDs and making "fair use" backups for their own use, people will now find it far more attractive to simply wait until someone else either rips the disk or does an A-D conversion then makes the resulting MP3 files available on the net (through alt.binaries.music.* or one of the many P2P networks).

I for one won't buy a protected music CD -- so that would leave me with no alternative but to download an illegal MP3 copy because I need to burn a couple of spares for my own use.

I guess if I really wanted to be honest, I'd send the recording company a check for the value of the album I'd downloaded -- but chances are that they'd then prosecute me for piracy -- even though I had offered to pay anyway.

These guys couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery!

Re:This encourages people to pirate CDs!

[stubear]

Did you ever think of taking care of your crap? I have CDs that are ~20 years old and they play just as well as the day they were purchased. Why? Because I treat them carefully, even when transporting them.

Do you get pissed at the car manufacturer because your car could be damaged in a wreck and ask them for a replacement? You don't? Of course not, because you either drive carefully (take care of your crap) or you hope the other guy has insurance.

Re:This encourages people to pirate CDs!

[NewtonsLaw]

Did you ever think of taking care of your crap? I have CDs that are ~20 years old and they play just as well as the day they were purchased. Why? Because I treat them carefully, even when transporting them.

Well arent' you lucky then ;-)

I've got CDs here that have gotten fatal scratches on some tracks simply from normal wear and tear. The same has happened on occasion with software CDs -- but the HUGE difference is that I can almost always take the software CD back to the vendor and they'll give me a replacement for the cost of the media and handling. But just try that with a music CD!

So just what are we buying when we fork out for an audio CD?

It can't be a single-user license to listen to the music -- or they'd replace the media at cost plus handling right?

So, since they won't replace a damaged CD for the price of the media plus handling, are we to assume that the music itself has little value and that most of the sticker-price is being allocated to the plastic and aluminum foil that makes up the disk itself?

Surely the recording industry needs to decide what they're selling here.

Do you get pissed at the car manufacturer because your car could be damaged in a wreck and ask them for a replacement? You don't? Of course not, because you either drive carefully (take care of your crap) or you hope the other guy has insurance

No, there's a huge difference.

The cost of manufacturing (and repairing or replacing) a car represents a huge percentage of the ticket price. The cost of manufacturing or replacing a wrecked audio CD is a very, very tiny percentage of the price.

Until the recording companies acknowledge this and admit that we're actually paying for a licence to listen to the music (therefore be prepared to replace the media at cost+handling) then they'll get little sympathy from me.

Most people who copy CDs do so simply because if the original gets scratched, they're up for the full price of a new copy -- even though they've already bought it once and that copy is now screwed.

It's nothing but pure and simple greed on the part of the recording companies.

When they learn to play fair then maybe consumers will reciprocate. In the meantime they're simply trying to have their cake and eat it too.

Re:This encourages people to pirate CDs!

[Dephex Twin]

I take excellent care of all my CDs, but how about this: I don't mind buying CDs when I like the music. But I play music in my computer; I don't have a stereo. There is no *way* that I'm going to buy a CD out of the goodness of my heart if I can't even play it! I'll just download the MP3s, thanks, and I won't have any guilt about it.

You could say "Buy a stereo!" Well, up till now buying a nice computer with good speakers covered both of those things. I'm definitely not buying a stereo just so I can play these crippled CDs!

mark

Re:This encourages people to pirate CDs!

[geoswan]

I guess if I really wanted to be honest, I'd send the recording company a check for the value of the album I'd downloaded -- but chances are that they'd then prosecute me for piracy -- even though I had offered to pay anyway.

Why send the recording company a check? They didn't press a CD for you. They didn't spend money on packaging for you. They didn't spend money shipping product to you, or paying for a salesman to smooze your record store. Don't worry about those creeps. They had their big lick at the trough.

Send the artist money. Here is an outfit that does that for you. (I have no association with fairtunes.com, except I saw a link to them here on slashdot a couple of months ago, and thought it was a good idea.)

The artists get what, 5% or 10% or less of the retail price you pay? According to the fairtunes FAQ, the artists typically get all kinds of things, like the cost of producing their CDs charged back against their royalties, so they get more like 2% of the retail price.

Re:This encourages people to pirate CDs!

[OpCode42]

heh, someone doesnt own an x-box yet, do they... ;)

Re:This encourages people to pirate CDs!

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Did you ever think of taking care of your crap? I have CDs that are ~20 years old and they play just as well as the day they were purchased. Why? Because I treat them carefully, even when transporting them.

No matter how much I take care of my CD's. It still doesn't prevent:

- People breaking into my car and stealing them.
- My house burning down, getting brocken into etc.
- People using my CDs who aren't as careful as I am with them.

Do you get pissed at the car manufacturer because your car could be damaged in a wreck and ask them for a replacement? You don't? Of course not, because you either drive carefully (take care of your crap) or you hope the other guy has insurance.

Do you even know what the definition of an analogy is?
A much better analogy would be the car manufacturer not letting your panel beater repair the car by themselves, and instead being forced to by spare parts from the manufacturer because creating you own parts would infringe on trademarks etc.

Re:This encourages people to pirate CDs!

[Rogerborg]

• How thick are the recording companies? What they don't realize is that instead of buying legal CDs and making "fair use" backups for their own use, people will now find it far more attractive to simply wait until someone else either rips the disk

Yes, it's very funny, until you realise that they need to demonstrate that they can't stop sharing, so that they can strongarm the CBDTPA through and change the rules. Don't you get it? These guys might be stone cold greedy motherfuckers, but that doesn't make them idiots.

Re:This encourages people to pirate CDs!

[stubear]

- People breaking into my car and stealing them.
- My house burning down, getting brocken into etc.

Ever hear of insurance? You can cover the cost of personal items in home owners or renters insurance but you have to itemize and spend time listing what you want insured. Would you expect Dell to replace your PC (not saying you have a Dell) if your house burned down? No, you would either call your insurance agent or pony up and buy a new PC if you didn't have insurance.

...because creating you own parts would infringe on trademarks etc.

I know you used etc., a term I HATE reading in posts like this. It means you don't know what you are talking about so you'll throw in the "etc." to cover anything you missed. Panels, were they actually protected, would be covered by patents if they were truly unique and the look would becovered by copyrights (this is why you don't see a Ford Viper or a Dodge Corvette).

Re:This encourages people to pirate CDs!

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Ever hear of insurance? You can cover the cost of personal items in home owners or renters insurance but you have to itemize and spend time listing what you want insured. Would you expect Dell to replace your PC (not saying you have a Dell) if your house burned down? No, you would either call your insurance agent or pony up and buy a new PC if you didn't have insurance.

Not everything can be replaced with money. What about all the CDs that I have that are very hard to get hold of now? Sure, I would have the money to by them again if they were ever stolen. but it would be a huge inconvenice to track them all down again from various places. And some I might never be able to find again.

Not to mention that fact that I might have no music for a while! I'd go insane.

Re:This encourages people to pirate CDs!

[Trogre]

I guess if I really wanted to be honest, I'd send the recording company a check for the value of the album I'd downloaded -- but chances are that they'd then prosecute me for piracy -- even though I had offered to pay anyway.

Just send cash.
And don't put a return address on the envelope :)

Anatomy of a Slashdot Music Story

[chazzf]

May it please the readers, I have summarized the above story and all attendant comments.

1. Story is posted noting that $company had implemented $copy_protection on the newest CD of $artist.

2. Someone points out that $copy_protection has a certain $bad_thing associated with it.

3. Users bemoan this heinous $copy_protection and associated $bad_thing.

4. Users bash $company and suggest boycott. Other users note that boycotts never work. Flamewar ensues.

5. Users bash $artist, say it wouldn't be worth ripping anyway.

6. Other users take the high moral ground about the sanctity of fair use.

7. Still other users suggest that $artist go independent. Other users defend $artist, stating that $company controls $artist.

8. There will be a smattering of posts flaming RIAA and other evil organizations.

9. Some users will suggest possible hardware/software workarounds.

10. Finally, in the background, the trolls continue on, oblivious to the actual content of the story.

There you have it, the story in a nutshell.

~Chazzf

Re:Anatomy of a Slashdot Music Story

[Violet Null]

Man, oh man, if only I had mod points today. That's got to be the most insightful thing I've read on Slashdot in a long, long while.

Re:Anatomy of a Slashdot Music Story

[mlk]

12: Someone posts a "How to/What is $x On Slashdot."

Re:Anatomy of a Slashdot Music Story

[(void*)]

Why is that insightful? It's like saying the sky is blue and without oxygen, one would cease to live.

A really insightful thing would be e^{i \theta} = \cos \theta + i \sin \theta. But I guess this aint News for Nerds anymore.

Re:Anatomy of a Slashdot Music Story

[wayland]

bash$ company
bash: company: command not found
bash$ artist
bash: artist: command not found

Phooey. For a second, I thought that I'd found some nifty new Linux commands.
:)

Re:Anatomy of a Slashdot Music Story

[MisterBlister]

You forgot:

11. Some dingus points out the obvious.

When will they learn??

[Celt]

When will the music industry learn that consumers don't like to be controlled like this, the industry forgets that there dealing with people who often know more stuff about computer systems then the industry knows and such things will always be circumvented EVENTUALLY.

Although protection on this CD is a good thing, less copies of it around so less pissed of people.
Yeahhh

Celine Dion?

[klostrophobic]

Who is the brave soul who wil step up and say they bought a Celine Dion CD?

It Had to be said...

[halo8]

BLAME CANADA

Re:It Had to be said...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey man, don't blame us. Or at least just blame Quebec.

Windows - NO what about Linux?

[matth]

What about linux? Will it work on there?

Re:How fast will it be ripped?-P2P-BSOD

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh lovely. Crash a P2P network, why doncha?

Forgot one:

[Anonymous Coward]

11. A varying chunk of /. readers make comments that prove that they too are oblivious to the actual content of the story.

LOTR

[Anonymous Coward]

They should put this technology on the FOTR DVD. Then we'll see once and for all which side cowboyneal is on.

Overrrated?

[NanoGator]

Every time I post something that gets a bunch of +1's, there's some jackass that comes along and marks it overrrated. Normally I wouldn't pay attention to it, except it has happened on every single popular post I've made in the last 2 weeks. Is there some git running around marking everybody down?

Since when is suggesting a new idea overrrated? At least show yourself and tell me why!

Note: Just to be clear, I'm not worried about Karma, it just feels like somebody's following me around and marking me down just for shits and giggles. It'd be nice to know that maybe they at least have a point to it.

Re:Overrrated?

[Anonymous Coward]

The /. illuminati is watching you Mr. NanoReptile.

Your crazy new ideas are dangerous and you must be punished!

Agent Poul is on your tail Mr. Nano, and he has a particular dislike of nanotechnology freaks. The illuminati CAN NOT allow that technology to gain a foothold, and your very nickname is a meme which puts it in peoples mind!

Intentionally crashes?

[aozilla]

Where in the article does it say that, exactly?

Re:Does it crash Linux? ;)-No!

[Anonymous Coward]

"But who listens to Celine Dion?"

Deaf people. :)

Nice move Sony

[Mordaximus]

The same company that would sell you their Network Walkman (NW-MS9 uses Memory Sticks, gets content via USB) for $499CDN will sell you CDs that you can't copy to it. The funny thing is the memory sticks this thing use are Magic Gate Memory Sticks, which is a Copyright Protection Technology.

Why not just stamp AOL on the top of these disks? they're just as useful.

Re:Nice move Sony

[Nf1nk]

The other day while looking for "copy protected" disks at best buy I looked at (did not buy repeat did not buy) a Brittney Spears album and no shit it had the AOL client on it.

it Blew my mind

is sony collecting illegal royalties on media?

[andrejs]

Is sony part of the coalition that collects royalties on blank media specifically because people are utilizing fair use to make personal back up copies? sony should immediately be prohibited from collecting any blank media surcharges as a result.

This is terrible news...

[TheWanderingHermit]

Reading this topic made me sick to my stomach. I just don't know if I can take such bad news.

Last I heard Celine Dion was in retirement.

Oh, Gawd...say it ain't so, Joe.

As for the copy protection problem -- that's a different story.

Re:Sony being sued, don't think so (coffee hot)

[whatparadox]

McD's said in court, 'Our customers almost always consume the product after arriving at their destination -home/work/etc' (paraphrase, to lazy to look it up). The Plantiffs suponead (?) McDonalds market research records, which happened to prove the exact opposite. That's why the original settlement was ~$18 mil. Willfull Endangerment or somesuch.

Boycott Sony... as for Dion...

[xelph]

no need to boycott her, since I assume that no Slashdot reader actually buys her CDs...

What Bogus OS Would Allow Data to Crash It?

[billstewart]

I'm sorry, I just don't get it. It's one thing to say "It won't play on a Mac or Windows PC, you'll get ugly sounds instead of music" Fine. Tacky, but Darwin will deal with bad marketing plans quickly enough. Even "We'll sends some really loud ugly sounds that might warp your speaker heads" would be credible, if rude.

But "Your Operating System won't just treat the data bits like data, it'll *crash*???" What kind of BOGUS LAME-OID OPERATING SYSTEM WOULD DO THAT? What *should* happen, if the hardware and software are designed competently, is that the read() requests should either return with some indication of fewer bytes than requested or some error code saying the read failed, like it would if you put a disk full of badly formatted random noise bits into the drive.

Has Sony tricked the CDROM into handing lots of interrupts to the IDE controller or something? Would a USB- or Firewire-connected CDROM react differently?

Re:What Bogus OS Would Allow Data to Crash It?

[SuiteSisterMary]

It's out of whack enough to damage the firmware of CD-ROM drives, apparently. Buggered-up hardware will easily crash an OS.

Re:What Bogus OS Would Allow Data to Crash It?

[loudici]

i have crashed a sun workstation with 100+ days uptime with a bad audio CD. drivers happen to be
the processes the scheduler has the least control over... i could see that mount process trashing badly, and even root could not kill it.

infinite loops in drivers are BAD...

Always a way around

[nolife]

You can always get around this thing. Just takes some good old fashion recording techniques like everyone did for decades until recently when ripping became possible.

Use the audio out jacks on your home cd player and attach them to the audio in on the back of your soundcard. If your lucky enough to have optical in/out, even better. Fire up any wav recorder, adjust the recording levels, and go to town. Many wav editors already include some method of detecting gaps and can break the wav file into separate files if needed. Sure it's not a straight digital rip and the quality may be slightly degraded but not anything you would notice after it's compressed to MP3 anyway. Keep in mind that it only takes ONE person in the entire world to do this, the rest of them will get it from their favorite P2P about two hours later. Soon you will see nfo files with mp3's that include the model of the home unit used, optical or rca jack, and then the compression scheme.

IMHO, mp3 players are not going away and seem to be gaining momentum rapidly. To completely ignore this fact and even go against it does not seem to make good business sense at all. I see MORE people downloading with this plan, not less. What are they thinking?

Re:Always a way around

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the age of wireless.

Use a microphone.

Just try to keep instances of the dog from running through the room chasing the cat during the recording to a minimum.

And make sure you share the result. Everybody wants to download shitty analog-layer MP3 files.

heh

say what?

[cr@ckwhore]

So, this problem is caused by some experimental copy protection crap on the new Celine Dion CD. Who gives a crap!?!? If you're listening to Celine Dion, surfing the web on your Sony Vaioaoieoiuo, you deserve it. Simple. Celine Dion sucks, and your lame ass Sony computers suck too. You're getting what you paid for, welcome to it.

CD Audio Standards

[subaquatique]

Does this format even adhere to the Red Book standard for CD Audio? If it doesn't, and it's labelled as CD Audio, then you'd probably have a good case... Come to think of it, wouldn't Philips have a case against them (Sony) if this is the situation?

Hacking tool?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like a good way to crash other people's computers. I wonder if this would be defined under the law as a "hacking tool".

Anything crashes Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

linux is almost as bad as Windows. It has
set back the state of computing by 10 years
redoing what's already in BSD. Switch to FreeBSD
if you want a truly advanced OS with high-performance stable VM and filesystem.

Re:Anything crashes Linux

[linuxChique]

linux is almost as bad as Windows. It has set back the state of computing by 10 years redoing what's already in BSD. Switch to FreeBSD if you want a truly advanced OS with high-performance stable VM and filesystem.

BSDplug: Fatal IO error: client killed

kind of ironic coming from an anonymous poster. second, this is not a debate on which 'NIX OS is best/more stable, whatever you thought it was.

through bein cool

Re:Anything crashes Linux

[boltar]

YOu mean the OS whereby if you mount a floppy disk and then remove it without unmounting it
the whole OS crashes without even a panic message? Yeah , very stable.

Re:Anything crashes Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

I put in floppy disk, mount, take out floppy disk, cd /floppy try to read file. Nope just a warning that the file aint accesible no crash no panic. Stop
spreading FUD / learn the facts.

Re:Anything crashes Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

well to be (overly) fair it can crash if the floppy in question has your kernel modules, swap space etc. on it.

or better still if you tell it to crash when the floppy is removed

FUD is FUD, Stupidity is a Freedom

Gestapo Celiene Dion Policies

[netik]

Sony is going quite overboard with this Album; Not only are they using copy protection, but they've also gone ahead and hired NetPD to investigate any possible location of the file on any filesharing network.

We've recieved a number of complaints from NetPD when they've seen songs from the album pass through our networks on Gnutella. It's quite extreme the lengths they are going through for such a popular artist.

You'd think they would put more effort into their smaller artists. They are the ones that will be hurt more from copying, not Dion. With millions of fans, she's not going to lose that much from copying; Sure, it's illegial to copy, but apply the same protection to ALL of your artists. Not just your big seller.

Re:Gestapo Celiene Dion Policies

[Anonymous DWord]

Sure, it's illegial to copy, but apply the same protection to ALL of your artists.

I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

How about the online version?

[jpumar]

So, how come I've seen the CD on sites like www.simplemp3s.com, ready to be downloaded?

So I better copy it ....

[Ashcrow]

It's as simple as that. Just copy it with the copy protection on it via cd-burner or cd to cd copier machine just like people do with DVD's. If that doesn't work you can always use cd-player to wav tracks with a nice CD-player with a line into your sound card.

Schrodinger's Cat

[Eberlin]

Isn't this a lot like Schrodinger's Cat -- or is anyone actually going to go see if this is true?

great news!

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope the entire recording industry goes this way.. then only idiots will buy music on CD and something else will appear out of necessity.

khl

Simple.

[Anonymous Coward]

The CD has b0rked session data. Windows/Mac OS automatically scans CDs when they are inserted. Windows/Mac OS hates b0rked session data.

Result: kaboom.

Is this even real?

[rf600r]

Amidst all the childish slams against the artist wasting space here, has one single person confrimed this? Anybody?

Write to CELINE NOW!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not send a mail to Celine stating that you won't buy the cd because you can't play it on the computer?

What about a sun....?

[Anonymous Coward]

Should the consumer try to play Dion's CD on a PC or Macintosh, the computer likely will crash.

OK I will buy it and try to play it on my sparc 5...

Thank You Sony.

[Binarybrain]

Its a safty feature to protect us from accidently playing Celine Dion's CD.

Definition of Negligence--Sony guilty

[blueskies]

It's been a while since my intro to law class, but the one thing I do remember is that putting a warning sign up can possible INCREASE the chance of being sued. The reason being that it is much easier to prove that the defendent knew that they had a dangerous situation and didn't do anything about it. This site shows the 4 elements needed for a negligence case. (I apologize for the crappy site, but i didn't have much time and wanted to back up my information with something. Check google to find more sources).

1. The defendent must have a defined duty -- in this case to produce working products and not snake oil.
2. Breach of duty: act or ommision must be shown -- Sony knew about the defective CD's and any reasonable person would think that they should play in ALL cd players. Sony also knows that most people would try to use them in computer CD players which is why they have a warning.
3. The Breach of Duty must be shown to be considered a reasonable cause of damage -- Clear cut case here.
4. Damages must be shown.

Sony by warning the customer is actually admitting that they have a defect product, they know it's defective and can cause damages, and they refuse to fix it.

Re:Definition of Negligence--Sony guilty

[gerfalcon]

Not quite. Negligence deals with unintentional acts, never intentional ones.

As an illustrative example - If I put a brick on my windowsill and it falls of and hits you, it's negligence. If I purposefully frop the brick out the window, it's a different tort (battery, in this case).

Since Sony put this onto the CD on purpose, it probably can't be a negligence case, although it may be a differnt tort (probably trespass to chattel - a generic tort dealin with someone breaking your stuff).

The 4 elements you described are used to analyze whether some unintentional conduct is actually negligent or not. In this case, it wouldn't be applied, since the conduct is intentional.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer (I'm a law student, actually), and this shouldn't be taken as legal advice.

Re:Definition of Negligence--Sony guilty

[Anonymous Coward]

Furthermore, if I sell a product definitely not made to be used with a certain device (like your brick with his computer CD player for instance) and I put a warning to not try to use my product in this manner, am I breaking a law ? I don't think so (but IANAL), so the point would be : how "definitely" is the CD not designed for computers ?

Re:Definition of Negligence--Sony guilty

[Anonymous Coward]

IANAL, and IANALS, but Sony's intent here is to prevent the CD from playing in a computer. Sony does not intend to damage the hardware or software/data on the computer. Producing a CD that won't play and may crash the computer is like setting the brick on the window sill. Sony knows that the CD can potentially damage the computer system (the brick may fall and hit somebody), but damaging the computer system is not their intent. Also, they would never be able to claim that computer damage was their intent as a defense against negligence - they're not going to claim to be guilty of a worse crime...

I think that other posters are correct when they say that this issue is why Sony is not using this copy protection schemem in the US.

Re:Definition of Negligence--Sony guilty

[btellier]

But it is unintentional if Sony publicly states that their product will in no way HARM a CD-ROM/Computer/Flash/etc and it does. Crashing a computer means damages.

Re:Definition of Negligence--Sony guilty

[k1012]

I don't quite agree. There's a strong analogy here to cigaratte smoking. The cig. companies give a warning on the packs that "Smoking is injurious to health" and they can still sell their products legally. Sometimes they also get sued, but the fact that they can legally sell their product like this must be protecting them against indiscriminate lawsuits from smokers. Similarly, drug companies post warning on their products such as "for external use only". If someone intentionally/unintentionally consumes the drug internally, I don't think the company would be liable for damages. So I think SONY is on a clean ground here by posting sufficient warnings on their CD. They clearly intend this as a feature of the CD - not a 'defect'.

Definitely illegal

[DaveWood]

Remember all those frighteningly vague and overbroad "computer crime" and "anti-hacking" laws that most states have passed over the last 20 years? You know, like the one that got that college kid a felony indictment for installing SETI@Home at his university?

This CD is illegal under almost all of them.

http://nsi.org/Library/Compsec/computerlaw/statela ws.html

Of course, so is all "spyware," including RealPlayer/CometCursor/RealJukebox/etc., and for that matter, perhaps even Windows Media Player 8 (silent reporting) and Microsoft Word (silent GUID/CPUID tagging). Not to mention all spam/UCE. Then again, so is even portwalking or attempting to log in to a computer that's not yours... And I could go on.

Then again, if the government is corrupt enough for Bono/DMCA/UCITA/SSSCA, it's way more than corrupt enough to conveniently forget to enforce these laws to any good end.

Re:Definitely illegal

[gnugnugnu]

Bono, that nice man from U2 trying to get politicians to drop third world debt?

You probably mean Sonny Bono, who died in a tragic skiing accident (he hit a tree). Karma?

Re:Definitely illegal

[CXI]

We should all go to the various FBI sites such as the one below and report that Sony is releasing CDs with a Trojan virus on them. I mean, if a government employee put this CD their workstation, what might the national security concequences be? ;) I say we fight them at their own game.

http://www.nipc.gov/incident/cirr.htm

And what about recorders that *arnt* computers?

[Grip3n]

such as these models that Philips offers. Sony is really targeting a very specific group of people here.

We Should Thank Sony...

[donovansmith]

...for making sure we can't listen to such awful music, and they even warn us by crashing our computers to not do it again.

In fact, it's time to pat the whole record industry on the back for copy protecting CDs from artists like the Backstreet Boys, Charlie Pride, and others (except for those who put the copy protection on VNV Nation's "Genesis" singles...they need to be smacked). The more they use copy protection technology on popular artists the less CDs they'll sell, which means I won't have to listen to their music as much (I already avoid conventional radio for that reason). Sometimes less really is more, especially from Sony, BMG, and most the other members of the RIAA (most of the good artists, IMHO, are with indie labels).

Well, I tried...

[nochops]

2002-04-03 17:17:39 Celine Dion's new CD crashing party for some users (articles,news) (rejected)

English translation

[Jaeger]

Depending on exactly what sort of protection your operating system has against errant programs, different things may happen. Running it on a real operating system (unix, NT, OS X) won't do much besides a segmentation fault, or the native equivilant thereof. Running it on a consumer-grade operating system (one without rudimentary memory protection; windows =

My point was that writing code intended to crash a system isn't hard at all if you're not using a real operating system. It wouldn't be hard to destroy the registry or corrupt the master boot record, especially if the user in question happens to have administrator privlages.

Of course, it wouldn't be difficult either to have the drive eject and pop up a message saying, to the effect, "Bad customer! No soup for you!" Which should be easy to circumvent by unchecking "Autorun CDs". (Oh great. I think I just violated the DMCA by typing this last sentence.)

Re:English translation

[loudici]

> My point was that writing code intended to crash >a system isn't hard at all if you're not using a >real operating system. It wouldn't be hard to >destroy the registry or corrupt the master boot >record, especially if the user in question >happens to have administrator privlages.

well..drivers happen to be the least controlable pieces of code. and that is true whatever OS you are using... there is a reason why mission critical machines have as few peripherals as possible. no driver can pretend to react gracefully to all hardware failures, and a driver running amok is bad.

This CD worked fine for me...

[zilym]

Bought this CD a couple days ago and cdparanoia worked fine on it with no hitches... Of course, the article says something about Germany, so maybe the US releases aren't copy protected.

But then what's the point? Just seems like extra incentive for Germans to wait on buying this CD until someone else in the US buys it, rips it, and posts it online... The music industry just loses sales and gains nothing.

microsoft vs sony

[kyoko21]

does this mean i can't use my xbox to make cool wmas? how sad... :-(

just a side note...

MS owns XBOX, Sony owns the PS2...

A New Day Has Come indeed

[speedfreak_5]

Now Sony wants us to buy this CD and restrict where we can listen to it and if we try to listen on our computers, it will crash it? Ha...ha...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Have they gone stupid or something? Doing this will not only harm the "Music industry" (aka the RIAA), but whenever I (and possibly many more) think of Celine Dion from now on, we will also think of the infamous "BLUE SCREEN OF DEATH!!!!!"

The artist has no say in this.

[Anonymous Coward]

The statementa about Celine Dion makes no sense -- since she does not have anything to say regarding these decisions.

Line out, line in.

[yerricde]

The problem with this is.. How do I get my music that I bought on my portable MP3 player?

Line out, line in. Sony can't stop that, even with the CBDTPA, because the draft CBDTPA includes a provision that makes it illegal to watermark a copy of a work in such a manner as to prohibit clearly fair uses such as space-shifting.

<whine>But it's not digital and it'll lose quality!</whine>

So what? For one thing, the MP3 encoding at 128 kbps (the bitrate used for portable MP3 players; for archiving, use 192 VBR) loses more information than a decent D/A/D conversion loses. For another, Even cheap consumer D/A/D conversion will add noise of about 60 dB below rail, and ambient environmental noise will mask that. (Unless, of course, you habitually turn up your pocket stereo high enough to risk permanent hearing damage.)

Re:Line out, line in.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't trust the supposed Fair Use provisions in the CBDTPA.

For starters, Fair Use is not a bright-line doctrine. It intentionally leaves some room for human judgement, even judicial interpretation, on a case-by-case basis. A machine that has no DRM and no copy protection can honor Fair Use -- but one with DRM will invariably break uses that are Fair and legal.

If you look closely, you'll also see that Fair Use is just one factor to be considered; the bill doesn't say it will be the overriding one. The SSSCA and the Intel VP's testimony both give us insights as to the thinking of the powers who favor the CBDTPA, and they just haven't shown any commitment to Fair Use. Quite the opposite!

Finally, the CBDTPA allows the industry and the content groups to change DRM systems after the Government has mandated them. Want to bet that there will never be a "technological improvement" thrown in after the fact that "just happens to have the side effect" of breaking Fair Use?

Sony of Japan appears to "get it", sort of

[Milinar]

One of the strangest I saw in japan was the local video rental place, where you could rent CDs. Right next to the rack of CDs was a display of blank Minidiscs. Of course, the MD only allows 2nd generation digital copies, but at least they were wise enough to realize that people were going to make copies whether they liked it or not, so they might as well make it easy. Mind you, CD burners weren't popular then (99ish) but it just seemed to me like the fundamental assumptions about people's music habits concerning digital technology was very different.

What drives me crazy about these stupid "copy protection" mechanisms that simply prevent playing on a computer is that it is COMPLETELY USELESS! Come on people, it's DIGITAL. It only takes one person with a good quality sound card, or the means of circumventing the "protection" and the world can be flooded with MP3s. It solves NOTHING, except that nagging problem you had with satisfied customers.

I just ripped it a couple of days ago!

[scum-o]

The whole article is BS. I just ripped the CD the other night for my fiance'. She wanted one of the songs off it for our wedding and our DJ only allows MP3s, so I used the "real player" under Win2k on an Inspiron 3700 and ripped the whole thing. I didn't play it, but I assume that this protection is meant to foil the copying, not the playing, right, so obviously it doesn't work. The article is BS.

crashing computer

[Last Warrior]

ive been pretty picky about the new music i buy for quite a while now. If this signals a trend tht will continue, I will stop buying cd's altogether.
There will always be someone who will be ble to get past the protection and rip the music to mp3.

I dont condone piracy, but I will not be mandated by any company where and when i can listen to my music.

For any of you record exec types,
please note. the more ways you find to limit the usability of music media, the more honest non-pirate consumers will switch over to using less than reputable sources.

so before you stat blaming the general population on your financial worries, just remember that you are part of the problem.

LW

Pointless

[brunes69]

Just for fun, I loaded up qtella and ran a quick "Celine Dion New Day" search on audio. Sure enough, the whole album showed up.

Re:Pointless

[krouic]

The tune labelled "celine dion - a new day has come.mp3" is shared now by more than 18'000 users on Audiogalaxy.

So much for the efficiency of the copy-protection scheme.

It could be worse...

[Anonymous Coward]

...instead of just crashing your computer, Sony could send Celine's husband to rape you.

Celine Crashing Components

[Moakek]

Well let just add, whenever I unavoidably listen to Celine Dion music (is it music?) I get the tendency to make things go crash. Especially the CD player playing the CD.

Re:Who cares about MACs?

[soulflakes]

BTW...It's spelled "Celine" MENSA member

Playstation?

[johnkoer]

So what would happen if I put this CD in my Sony Playstation?
...
or God forbid my XBOX.

well, in fact...

[Anonymous Coward]

A friend of mine (I won't reveal her identity
here) just bought the CD a couple days ago and pop it into her cd-rom drive and it happens to play the songs (if one can call those 'songs').

Trivial workaround (and the *real * agenda)

[fanatic]

1. cable line-out of CD player to line-in of computer.
2. start analog to digital software on computer (I like wavrec)
3. play cd
4. encode to mp3
5. upload the fuck out of that thing

Oh, yeah, copy protection will keep this of the Internet. Right.

This is just cover for the real agenda: to convince people that they don't own what they just paid for, and must have the RIAA's permission to use it.

Pay per play is the ultimate goal and this is just a step in that direction.

Re:Trivial workaround (and the *real * agenda)

[Rogerborg]

• This is just cover for the real agenda: to convince people that they don't own what they just paid for, and must have the RIAA's permission to use it

Why would they need to convince us, when the real agenda is to strongarm the CBDTPA through (by showing that schemes like this are trivially breakable) and change the game forever?

In case you missed it, the CBDTPA recognises the digital-analog-digital weakness, and intends to address it. That means no more analog inputs or outputs. Yes, we're talking no more 3.5mm jacks, we're talking expensive digital microphones that are deliberately crippled so it's not even worth recording speaker-to-microphone. It's appalling, it's unthinkable, and it's coming to a democracy near you real soon now. :(

Re:Trivial workaround (and the *real * agenda)

[Azog]

Or, an even better all-digital solution:

1. Run a good cable from the SPDIF out of your CD player to the SPDIF in of sound card (1)
2. Start digital recording software on PC that came with sound card
3. play cd track by track, splitting recording into tracks on computer
4. Encode tracks to .ogg
5. Add to your .ogg jukebox music collection
6. If in Canada, you can legally burn copies for your friends, that's what the levy on blank CD's is paying for.

(1) I recommend the MAudio Audiophile 2496 sound card. It is well supported by the Linux ALSA drivers, comes with some good software for Windows, and has complete override ability for the SPDIF copy control system. Also, the onboard 24-bit 96 Khz analog to digital converters are very good, if you ever need to do an analog rip.

I don't know how to copy this CD

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone who has replied and kept the subject line "Re:Clone CD can copy it" are just as guilty because the subject line says it all.

A dose of their own medicine

[Anonymous Coward]

So, if this audio disk crashes your computer (and is *designed* to crash your computer) can we get Sony for violating the USA PATRIOT act or some other such law?

I mean, distributing a product that is specifically designed to crash a computer must be considered a terrorist act.

Maybe being crushed by their own steeming pile of dung will cause Sony to think twice about lobbying for legal changes.

Why break the Redbook standard?

[gblues]

Okay, given that a properly encoded MP3 (e.g. lame --r3mix <infile.wav> <outfile.mp3>) has been proven to be indistinguishable from the source material in double-blind tests, I have a better means of protecting CD content:

• Encode the source material into high-quality MP3.
• Decode the resulting MP3s back into .WAV format.
• Use the WAV files to create the master.
• Press copies of the master and distribute to retail.

This way there is negligible quality loss, and even perfect CD rips will still sound like ass when re-encoded into MP3. More importantly, the CD does not lose functionality!

Nathan

Re:Why break the Redbook standard?

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, that's genius. The protection would be psycho-acoustic, so that the data is readable and rippable, but unlistenable.

Of course, you'll have to show me those study results. You'll always have audiophiles who will insist they can hear a difference.

Maybe it should be done in secret?

Re:Why break the Redbook standard?

[Whatsthiswhatsthis]

Won't everybody just switch to ogg/vorbis then?

Re:Why break the Redbook standard?

[Anonymous Coward]

Its better to lame --alt-preset standard since r3mix is no longer updated and is inferior to aps standard.

Re:Why break the Redbook standard?

[iotaborg]

Well you could just keep it as Wave if you really want to protect cd content... uncompressed audio is over 1000kbps, mp3 is no where near this stage. There is quite a bit of data loss even after compression though to most it will sound the same... but it still is not archival.

Double blind testing is a tricky and debated topic... you would also have to consider equipment used. If you are using something like the Klipsch promedias you probably wont notice differences between original and mp3. But, if you use a real sound system, there is going to be a small difference... though for the better or worse is questionable, at least for me... I can hear a difference between well ripped mp3s and cds on my home audio system, however I cannot tell which one is which.

Some of the double blind tests are at r3mix's site, using a $10000 headphone system out of a "HQ sound card" (whatever that is) and a B&W Nautalus setup. Doesn't really get into the details of the setups... I suppose for everyone's purposes mp3 would be a suitable medium, but it is not lossless nor archival... then again, given the horribly equalized and mixed recordings the record companies pump out, I suppose it wouldn't even matter. Go mp3!

Re:Why break the Redbook standard?

[Anonymous Coward]

This wouldn't work. You might get some additional round off errors from the companding stages, but thats about it. The filter banks (or whatever there called) on a good codecwouldn't strip any more detail from the track since its already optimal. It would just recompand the signal and go onto huffman coding the resulting data. No significant reduction in quality IMO.

Re:Why break the Redbook standard?

[Anonymous Coward]

Clever, but won't work.

People will point to you that the second mp3 compression will not throw away data. Of course, if the studio choose an non-mp3 original compression, then the second (mp3) one will throw data, because the psycho-acoustic model is not the same. So this point is moot.

But a wav regenerated from a mp3 have much less information in it than the original wav, so it should compress quite well without loss. A workaround for that would be to add white noise to the regenerated track, but you'll throw the quality away...

Disabled :-(

[/Idiot\]

Remember, that you can disable autorun!

Sony is or isn't liable?

[teamhasnoi]

If I have some documents open and try to play this 'CD' (not a CD! and it damn well better have a warning label ON the disc!), and said disc crashes my computer, making me lose data, is Sony liable? If they are, I see some $$$ coming my way. (and yours, and his, and hers, and ....)

BTW. Why put copy protection on this disc? Really, honestly, how many people who actively participate in file sharing (ripping, encoding, and sharing) are going to listen to Celine Dion? I was under the impression that most P2P users were somewhere in the age bracket of 15-30, and male..I may be mistaken, but that's my understanding from following all this..

So why then? I'm guessing that this is an attempt by the RIAA to say, "Look! Copy Protection works! There are 'x' number of copies of Celine floating around the net. Without Copy Protection there would be many more. If we compare it to the latest Nickleback album, you see that copy protection works! This is why Senator Holling's bill is genius! " This is the argument that the RIAA will take to Congress in order to get the SSSCA passed.

Go and buy this disc. Rip it in ANY manner. Make it the MOST shared disc EVER. GIVE copies away to all who WOULD have bought it. Return it to the store. Repeat.

Of course, this would probably end up being the argument then: "See! We NEED Hardware Copy Protection! We tried to keep them from this disc and they broke the protection!"

The answer, then, is to not buy OR listen to music from the RIAA. Explore unsigned bands! THINK! Has your life improved because of Creed's newest album? Where would you be if you had never heard it? If the RIAA sells nothing, and has no pirate to rail against, where are they? Gone. And, you are also helping out artists who deserve your attention, and are not part of the Media Industry.

Gaaarrrr! I'm gettin a beer.

Re:Sony is or isn't liable?

[AtomicBomb]

encoding, and sharing) are going to listen to Celine Dion? I was under the impression that most P2P users were somewhere in the age bracket of 15-30, and male..I may be mistaken, but that's my understanding from following all this..
Yeah, right! Sony needs your help to promote that music around P2P networks. I am sure my friends will search for the ripped titles tonight as part of the social "responisiblity" :-)

Re:Sony is or isn't liable?

[Rogerborg]

• The answer, then, is to not buy OR listen to music from the RIAA

Uh, I thought you'd spotted the pattern after your first two excellent points. If RIAA member revenue drops off, that too will be used to strongarm the CBDTPA (not SSSCA, dammit) through, because how the hell are independent bands going to be able to demonstrate that the revenue has moved to them? As far as the RIAA / Congress / Senate / mainstream press would be concerned, the only story would be "RIAA revenues plummet! End of civilisation as we know it!" We're damned if we do, damned if we don't, and damned if we don't care.

Re:Sony is or isn't liable?

[teamhasnoi]

Ironically, I almost put,We're damned if we do, damned if we don't, and damned if we don't care. as the last line... :)

I agree with you, and not to bring up the old chestnut analogy of the buggy whip manufacturers, but what do we do? Sadly, I am a musician (period :) and am caught in this whole mess more than your average mp3'er. Do I kill myself to put out music, that thanks to the RIAA, I won't be able to distribute by any channel, other than 'approved' copy-protected methods? Is it even possible for an independent musician to make a buck at this? Make it difficult enough to create, distribute, and who will bother? This is how they will 'own' all 'content', and how we will be stuck with lowest common denominator pap. Frankly, it makes me ill.

Re:Sony is or isn't liable?

[Basilius]

One key thing to remember: the person listening to the music is not _necessarily_ the person doing the downloading.

I'm like most people on here: I download MP3s to get a feel for the new stuff that's out there to see if there's something I'm interested in buying. I'm having to be a LOT more selective in my purchases in the recent past, as we've been hit pretty hard by the economy. I've probably bought less than five CDs in the last 15 months, compared with 2-3 per month before that.

Every couple weeks, my wife will either send me an email from work telling me about an album that looks interesting that she'd like to hear, or we'll see something go by on one of the DirecTV audio channels. I do my searches, download the files, and burn a CD. We then usually listen to it in the car on the way to work the next day.

The latest albums that have been through this process are Celine Dion, Pink, Indigo Girls, and Melissa Etheridge. These are not people I'd normally listen to. My tastes tend towards artists like Aphex Twin, Tangerine Dream and King Crimson.

So - don't assume that just because it's a chick band or sappy singer that you can't find the stuff on a P2P system.

Also, your comment about "without copy protection there would be many more copies" is facitious. As many have stated, there are very few originals posted to the P2P systems. Most of the available copies were downloaded by someone else. All it takes is one copy to seed the system.

I must say that the Celine Dion album is probably the most downloaded thing off my system since I acquired it. That has surprised me quite a bit.

Basilius

Crashing cars

[TheMCP]

All joking aside, my father's new car's engine is computer-controlled... along with everything else in the car. He tells me even the radio and CD player are both controlled through the touch screen control console.

I don't know how they're running the audio, and I don't know what they're using for software, but really I think I'd better email him a link to this article.

Re:Crashing cars

[Moofie]

Different computers.

The ECU that controls things like spark timing and fuel delivery is a real-time controller running on hardware totally separate from anything that will ever be interacted with by the driver ever.

So don't worry.

Re:Crashing cars

[RFC959]

The ECU that controls things like spark timing and fuel delivery is a real-time controller running on hardware totally separate from anything that will ever be interacted with by the driver ever.

Hopefully. I have horrible visions of some beancounter at an automaker saying "Hey, why are we putting two totally independent computer systems in our cars? Let's roll them into one and save money!"

Re:Crashing cars

[Moofie]

Not gonna happen. ECUs are cheap, and pretty standard. Integrating in user-level stuff, which changes even within a single car model, would be absurdly expensive.

Re:Dearest Michael

[Reality Master 101]

The reason that major news organizations such as CNN, Newsweek, etc., all preface "Osama Bin Laden" with the phrase "alleged terrorist" instead of "terrorist" is that if you publish something you cannot prove, as a news organization, you can be held liable for the result.

Sort of. The reason they do that is to protect themselves from libel, as in calling someone a criminal who has yet to tried in court of law. That can be very damaging to someone's reputation.

When Slashdot publishes as fact the point that Celine Dion's CD is cause for a no-lose lawsuit against Sony, that could be a potentially bad situation. What's the source? Is it opinion? It's stated as fact!

There's a reason that they are called "legal opinions". There no such thing as a "legal fact".

Be that as it may, this is totally different from protecting oneself from libel. Guess what -- the first Amendment gives you the right to say just about anything you want, including factually untrue statements, as long as you are not damaging another person or entity. Is Michael representing himself as a lawyer? No, he is not. He's stating his opinion. Who is he damaging here? Someone might believe that he's a lawyer and file a lawsuit? Without getting any further legal advice from a real lawyer? Doubtful.

Yeah, I can just imagine that courtroom scene: "Your honor, I was visiting a geek web site, and one of the editors said that this was a no-lose case! Well, no, it isn't a web site about legal issues. Well, no, he wasn't a laywer. Well, no, I didn't talk to any qualified attorneys, I just filed the case myself. Well, yes, the site does have a history of posting editorials about various stories."

Sheesh, and you call me a troll.

but i like c dion's music...

[Anonymous Coward]

hey you guys... you like her music, and you need to stop saying it's not music, because it really is.... HAHAHAHA! sorry, i just can't stop from laughing when i say that! hahaha, but still, sony sux and we should all kick them in their nuts or something, for being so stupid

Of course it'll crash.

[Lord Sauron]

It's a Sony !

Operating As Designed.

[hangdog]

'Should the consumer try to play Dion's CD on a PC or Macintosh, the computer likely will crash.'

Most Windows users probably wouldn't even notice. ;)

Whats the big deal?

[CrasHUV]

Windows has been crashing my computers for years... so whats wrong with one Celine CD doing the same? At least they are telling you upfront. I have yet to find the label on Win98 that says the same.

Re:Whats the big deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Unlike Linux, which only crashes when you install ye old ghetto open source program written by a twelve year old. Oh, wait, thats most of them. My 2k box running an assortment of software is far more stable then any linux desktop running software with similar functionality. Now be a good little troll and shove your computer up your ass.

in related news . . .

[Ayatollah]

a mother is planning on suing sony because her son committed suicide after trying unsuccessfully to copy the new celine cd.

"he was mentally unstable, but i let him spend twelve hours a day listening to the cd while trying to harvest the tracks. he looked at it as a challenge and it consummed him. even though i suck as a parent, i will now try to become a millionaire."

sony could not be reached for comment

Line out, line in.

[yerricde]

I'm pretty sure somebody'll figure out a way (if they haven't already done so) to rip the audio off it.

I already have. See my previous comment.

Anyone else notice...

[mtnharo]

that all of these copy-protected CDs have been from artists that very few people are likely to buy. The first I recall was the craptastic Michael Jackon CD. Now this. I'm guessing Sony, Bertlesmann et al know that these "CrippleDiscs" are a risky proposition. Imagine if the new ____ CD were one of these? They would stand to lose a very large chunk of change on a move like that.
My .0958 shekels.

Re:Windows - NO what about Linux?

[ghack]

you havent read the article - it affects the drives firmware, and is therefore OS independent!

Philips

[M3wThr33]

I haven't seen a serious reply to this yet. Other than installing boot-sector viruses, this is as bad as copy protection can get. All we can hope for is for Philips to use their 1/2 ownership of the CD to PERMANENTLY revoke Sony's privelege to use the CD stamp logo on it and allow customers to return it without question, also having Sony claim COMPLETE liability for all damages caused. But what about the countless sound systems and CD players that can't play it? These systems are less intense than a computer and could actually have permanent damage. Sony, I have lost faith in you. This event alone(completing ignoring the artist herself) has made me begin a personal boycott against you. Any company that creates CDs with the intent to sabotage ALL computer users should be dealt with to the fullest extent of the law. I don't care HOW much revenue is lost to pirates, assuming and treating all your customers like criminals is NO way to conduct business.

Re:Is there a location where we can find these CDs

[SgtXaos]

http://www.fatchucks.com/

Jogging, not cars

[yerricde]

The reason that cassettes are still available is that people like to listen to music in their cars.

Not cars. As lucifuge31337 said, any car CD player over $50 should handle bumps well. The same can't be said for pocket CD players. No matter how big your pocket CD player's buffer is, it won't be able to buffer over 10 minutes of jogging. A pocket tape player is also much cheaper than a MiniDisc recorder or an MP3 player.

In any case, part of what I was saying was that the 'new media' would be a higher quality than CD.

No. Quality is not a linear function of signal-to-noise ratio or frequency because the ear has limits to what it can hear. The recording industry will have a hard time convincing the audio-enlightened that their new format has higher fidelity than good old CD Audio. A well-mastered CD has 120 dB dynamic range in 20-16000 Hz and decent dynamic range above that because modern mastering techniques shove all the dither noise into the high frequencies (16-22 kHz) where the human ear is not nearly as sensitive. (Look up "noise shaping" on Google to see how.)

Re:Jogging, not cars

[resonator]

The reason that cassettes are still available is that people like to listen to music in their cars.

Not cars. As lucifuge31337 said, any car CD player over $50 should handle bumps well.

...don't forget that car CD decks get jacked all the damn time. (It's happened to me twice so far.) Nobody takes cassette decks :)

Re:Jogging, not cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, and nobody ever needed more than 640k.

Re:Jogging, not cars

[Milkyman]

Have you ever tried a Sony Discman with G protection? Those things are hard to skip.

Re:Jogging, not cars

[~roman]

A well-mastered CD has 120 dB dynamic range

eh, 20*log(2^16) = 96.3 dB

Look up "noise shaping" on Google to see how

Do not use Google, but calculator and brain (sometimes they do better job than pigeons...)

Re:Dearest Michael

[mwalker]

Why does Monster.com have a boilerplate policy which clearly states that their statements are not to be interpreted as legal advice? They're just a techie-oriented career site... why would they be worried?

Michael's statements are the exact sort of damning legal advice Monster is trying to protect itself from. Your statement was designed to inflame reasonable people who have a clue. Yes I call you a Troll, and you can giggle at me for replying all you want, ma'am.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Who cares about MACs?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ooooh. Sweet! I got a -1 and I got some fucking tool to flame me.

CD-toCD copiers?

[closedpegasus]

Would this thing play in one of those dual-deck CD copiers? That doesn't really qualify as a computer...and would a copied CD using one of the dual-decks still cause damage?

this will make me think twice....

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about you guys, but seeing that Sony will do something like this. REALLY makes me think twice about buying any of their products. Who's to say I wouldn't put that CD in a PSone or PS2 and have it trash it too.

I was ready to purchase a PS2, but seeing this...I think I'll pass. I'll also pass purchasing any other Sony products ever again in the future. Who knows what they might do.

These CDs *can* hose XP

[kawika]

The errors that the CD causes are interpreted by XP as a failure of the drive, so it permanently turns off DMA in the hopes that will make the drive usable. Here's an informative Usenet post about the problem. So Sony is wrong when they say the CD "...will not alter anything."

Re:These CDs *can* hose XP

[LRJ]

Their argument would be that technically, the CD didn't change anything - it was XP detecting a non-CD format and then reconfiguring itself. Brings us back to the Plug-and-Pray days.

Re:These CDs *can* hose XP

[naarok]

Anyone in Europe want to sue Sony for a DOS attack? Seems to me that turning off DMA is a pretty clear DOS attempt (not to mention actually crashing a consumers computer)

But it works!

[Darkdude]

I've been listening to the original cd as well as my backup for a while now. In fact I'm listening to it now on my dell inspiron 8100. Used a yamaha 4416S to copy and is pretty old I admit but works. I ripped a few tracks using cdex, and it sounds good. I don't doubt that it has some kind of copy protection. Not sure how or why but it still works!

Reasonable person test

[coyote-san]

Despite what the lawyers want you to think, almost anything you do still has to pass a "reasonable person" test.

Would a reasonable person expect a CD purchased (or received as a gift) to destroy a computer that has successfully played hundreds of other CDs? Of course not, they won't even read the disclaimer, and if they do they will interpret "may not play in computers" as "it may play in computers, why don't you give it a try" not as "will cause temporary or permanent damage."

In other words, that disclaimer is worthless at best, and an active inducement to try playing it in vulnerable hardware at worse.

As for your example, there's the same issue with the reasonable person test. Bigots may think they can identify homosexuals at a glance, but they can't and that policy is both unenforceable and arbitrarily enforced against innocent parties.

Re:Reasonable person test

[Rogerborg]

• Despite what the lawyers want you to think, almost anything you do still has to pass a "reasonable person" test.

True, but bear in mind that if it comes to court, you have a civil case against them for damages, but they can ask what you were doing trying to circument a copy protection device, which (thanks to the DMCA) is a criminal offence. Nice piece of blackmail the gubmint's handed them there.

Re:Reasonable person test

[Rary]

...but they can ask what you were doing trying to circument a copy protection device, which (thanks to the DMCA) is a criminal offence.

Except that the DMCA would not apply in this case, as the DMCA is, fortunately, only American law, and these copy-protected CDs, according to the article, have been released in "Germany and several other European countries".

- There's no such thing as a "right to profit".

Easy Fix

[Perl-Pusher]

Just don't buy the CD or Sony Computers. I personally like to listen to music while I work. But they just assume all PC users are thieves.

It's the voice, not the code!

[Glanz]

It's that screetchy high-pitched, "I've got something probing me", saga-music voice that makes the PCs crash, not Sony's code.

Re:It's the voice, not the code!

[guiding_knight]

no, the computer can handle the raw data... its the users heads that will be dong the crashing. Into their desk. Over. And. Over.

Re:It's the voice, not the code!

[Glanz]

That link you posted made me spit my morning tea onto my keyboard! LOL Tea is less noxious than Celine BTW.

Sony Executive Meeting

[Asparfame]

Exec #1: We have a problem! People prefer pirating music over buying our CDs. What shall we do?

Exec #2: Idea! Let's sell them less-functional CDs for the same price!!!

great...

[Anonymous Coward]

...so now I can't make my "Greatest Elevator Music Hits" compilation cd. darn...

I don't have a CD player :(

[spir0]

not that I'm condoning the purchase of a celine dion CD, but when this becomes a standard, it'll be worrying.

I play CDs on my PC and my playstation 2. another sony product.. is there any mention of whether they'll play on PS2's? is a PS2 CDrom like a PC or a "proper" cd player?

I'm tired of CD's

[n2dasun]

They cost too much, especially thinking of how much cd media costs, and all this copy protection talk is pretty tiresome. I always go to Cheap CD's to find the track listing and some sound samples, then go to Audiogalaxy if it sounds interesting, so I can listen to all the songs before I decide if I want to purchase it. I hate paying for filler material. I want songs that were made because the artist wanted to make it and put some heart into it, not something they had to cook up to finish the album. I'm threw with fattening up record execs just by doing(IMHO) the right thing and purchasing cd's.

I think the folks at Fairtunes have the right idea. Check out this link I got from their faq to see how much artists actually get from these cd sales.

A quick quote

[Corby911]

"One likes to believe
In the freedom of music
But glittering prizes
And endless compromises
Shatter the illusion
Of integrity"

--Rush, "The Spirit Of Radio"

Please Let It Be True!

[Robber Baron]

"According to Yahoo!, Celine Dion's latest CD will not play in computer drives.

Oh God...Please let it be true!

Re:Please Let It Be True!

[pressman]

The real trick would be for her new CD to not play in ANY cd players at all!

Don't compare me to Sony.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait just a minute there. Don't be comaparing me to Sony. I couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery.

Mostly because I don't know what the hell a piss-up is.

Please elucidate.

Re:Don't compare me to Sony.

[NewtonsLaw]

Mostly because I don't know what the hell a piss-up is.

Piss-up noun. antepodean coloquialism.
Party, festivity involving the copious consumption of alcoholic libations. Named because of the after-effects of such activities: ie: to piss-up against the wall.

Oh come on!

[/dev/trash]

As if Celine or any other artist has a say in how their music is ditributed.

Playable on more modern cd players?

[Skyfire]

How well does this play on more modern players, such as mp3/cd players and dvd players? I don't know how this system works, but my mp3/cd player has trouble with multi-session disks.

I like tacos!

[Anonymous Coward]

woo a fellow zim watcher.

It's true. My mom verified this.

[Anonymous Coward]

My mom tried to play this CD in the computer,
and couldn't play the disc.
and now she cannot use the computer.

Or was it the other way?

Time for a boycott.

[MacOSXHead]

If you could get 20% of the buying public to swear off buying CDs for one month, I would bet you would see a swift about face in the music industry.

We have the economic weapon. Let's use it!

If I can't get it on-line, I ain't gettin' it.

[crovira]

And considering the crap they push at us, I ain't missin' a thing am I? I've bought all the music I'm ever going to. It ain't worth what they're charging.

It can be on vinyl, CD or MP3, at some point, quality get so low you don't want to play/hear it. Long before that, the content is so lousy, you can't be bothered to listen.

The argument against MP3s is totally bogus. I hear music in bars (noisy drunks,) and in elevators and shopping malls. (gag.)

At some point you have go into a "media outlet" to ask the underpaid, surly, pimply-faced, badly-dressed little twerp at the counter 'neath the poster for the "Bad/naughty/virginal/sassy Bitch" "du jour": "Do you feel lucky punk? Well do you? 'Cause your music sucks and the bubble-head/butt/tits hanging over your head doesn't look like she knows which end to suck on."

You want a prediction? The increase in unit price will be inversely proportional to the sales volume. In two years, CDs will go for forty bucks a pop (and it will be pop pap,) and then Mr. Edison's little talking machine will be quiet. At last.

Music is merely the least unpleasant noise.

I'm confused...

[Crag]

Are you saying that in the conversion

wav -> mp3 -> wav -> mp3

that the second mp3 stage will be at a distinctly lower quality than the first mp3 stage? Is there discussion of this somewhere that you can point me to?

Re:I'm confused...

[gblues]

The transition I outline is Original -> MP3 -> WAV -> CD. Even with a perfect digital extraction from this CD, they are still getting the waveform that has already been through the MP3 encoding process once. The MP3 encoding process throws away inaudible frequencies ("inaudible" being determined by the encoder's psycho-acoustic model). This means that the second encoding process has to throw away audible frequencies, resulting in audible compression artifacts.

There is lots of excellent information on creating high-quality MP3 files at www.r3mix.net.

Nathan

Re:I'm confused...

[autopr0n]

This means that the second encoding process has to throw away audible frequencies, resulting in audible compression artifacts.

No it dosn't. In theory a good encoder could reproduce, bit for bit (or extremly close) the mp3 file at the first stage, in other words it dosn't have to throw away anything because all of the data would fit into a compressed format.

CDDA? Phillips?

[acoustix]

So does this CD have the CDDA logo on it?

If it does then by the agreement that Sony signed with Phillips (to use the CDDA logo) the CD has to be able to play IN ANY DEVICE THAT HAS THE CDDA LOGO on it.

right?

Re:CDDA? Phillips?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope it does not have any of the familiar CD
logo's on the disc or on the case.

Re:CDDA? Phillips?

[avij]

As the AC mentioned in a previous message, it doesn't have any CD logos on it. Not on the CD, not on the paper prints and most surprisingly of all, not even on the plastic jewel case. Have a look at any CD you have, you'll notice that there's a Compact Disc digital audio in the top-right and bottom-left corner of the jewel case. There is no such logo on her CD case. Perhaps they've received a friendly notice from Philips stating that they're not allowed to use the logo on their CDs that are not really CDs.

Seems like they were more careful this time, as there were several Compact Disc logos on the Shakira CD that I mentioned in an earlier message. The small 'will _not_ play on PC/MAC' notice on the front cover (bottom-right corner) looks just like the notice that was on Shakira's CD, the colours are just a bit different.

Car Stereos that Read CD-R(W)

[Innova]

My Car stereo reads CD-ROM/CD-R/CD-RW. It also plays mp3 (Aiwa CDC MP3). Does this mean that this CD will not play in my car even? I don't think that is what Sony intended......

Who cares?

[volcanic_god]

The real question is why anyone would be playing Celine Dion to begin with!

Re:You aren't making sense; no you aren't

[Anonymous Coward]

Regardless of Sony telling people that you can't play the CD on your computer. #1 you bought it and it's yours. #2 that is malicious tampering with consumer markets. Something that MPAA is accused of with DVD zoning.

This reminds me.

[ROBOKATZ]

I've been meaning to download some Celine Dion MP3s.

Re:This reminds me.

[pressman]

Think! Think, man! I know that on the surface it seems like the right thing to do, but all it will get you is some Celine Dion MP3's! Don't do it!

that could work...

[pixel fairy]

im interested in these double blind studies, do you have a reference?

theres also alot of music where the differnce in quality wouldnt matter (gwar)

while we may have legal rights to fair use, they dont have any legal obligation to facilitate it.

Re:that could work...

[gblues]

The test was performed by c't, a German magazine. The article is here, although the results summary is available in English in the "Quality" section of r3mix.net (r3mix does not allow deep linking).

This is why I say "properly encoded," because half the work is using the right encoder with the right settings. If you use Xing, the MP3s will sound like crap no matter what settings you use. :) The short version is, use new versions of LAME with the --r3mix alias. :)

Nathan

Marketing Gimmick

[bogasity]

So does the CD crash Sony computers? Maybe Sony decided to produce a CD that would crash every other system to prove the superiority of their products. Naw, I doubt even a Japanese company would have this much foresight.

Celeen Deeon != Musician

[TheTomcat]

Attention Celine Dion and all musicians

Kudos for not mistaking Céline Dion for a musician. (-:

S

Re:Miss KITTIN ROX, FREEE, Death to SONY, DEATH.

[Alarmabad]

Fuck you moderator scum. You are of Sony, vile and unclean, death to you who does this.

Maybe it's for the best

[AndyChrist]

I mean, what with the music being designed to make the listener throw up.

Rippers can just feed to line in

[fire-eyes]

All of these attempts to stop computer users from playing them in the computer are silly. Obviously an attempt to prevent ripping.

But anyone with a clue.. and yes, i realize this isn't most computer users... will work around it. I mean gimme a break, all you have to do is play it on a 'standard' cd audio player, into line in, and record. Yes, it'll be at 1.0x, but hey, if someone wants it that bad...

Re:Moderators need to get informed!

[Inthewire]

I wish I had the points to mod this up.

At least part of it makes sense

[flacco]

Figures they'd use an irrelevant emaciated hag's music to float this trial balloon.

You Break It You Bought it.

[Anonymous Coward]

I just find it interesting how the corporate world
gets its boxers in a bind whenever anyone launches
a DoS attack against them and then turns around and does exactly the same thing to a consumer just trying to use what is probably a legally purchased product. So we are in effect paying them to destory and corrupt our data/hardware. I'm wondering could the consumer return the favor?

Works for me...

[strangel]

I'm currently listening to this cd on my pc... works like every OTHER cd I own...tested on a Samsung SW-408B CD-RW drive and a Samsung SD-608 DVD drive. No problems.
Are you sure all of them are protected?
I tried it in WinAmp, Roxio EZ CD Creator, and even Windows Media Player...if it doesn't crash WMP, I think it's safe to say it's not gonna crash anything :P
Perhaps I got lucky? Can anyone verify?

Jim

Re:Works for me...

[Anonymous Coward]

No verification. Probably because you are the only one who listens to this crap.

Re:Works for me...

[Anonymous Freak]

Did you buy the european version of the CD? As stated in the story, only SOME european versions of it are this way. The American verison isn't crippled. (Yet.)

Is this a troll?

[autopr0n]

You only stated that raw->mp3 dosn't lose quality, but you havn't given any information in regards to raw->mp3->raw->mp3 as sounding 'like ass'. Where is the evidence that it would?

Re:Is this a troll?

[gblues]

The same reason that a JPEG file converted to raw raster data (e.g. BMP), then re-converted to JPEG will not look identical to the original JPEG file.

Different encoders have different frequency analysis patterns. If you take an MP3 encoded by LAME, convert it to PCM, then encode that PCM back to MP3 using Xing or Fraunhofer, the encoder will analyse the signal differently. Since the original MP3 already has the inaudible frequencies removed, any information removed by the alternate codec will be audible.

In fact, using the same encoder with different settings will have the same effect. The only way you would possibly get the exact same MP3 back would be to use the exact same encoder with the exact same settings used to create the initial MP3. There is no way to get of this information from any kind of analysis on the waveform.

Nathan

Because nobody would buy it

[RelliK]

The installed base of CDs is just too huge. CDs provide excellent quality sound so any further improvement is be superficial (*). So if the new media provides no advantages, consumers will not be so eager to buy the new players which will not be compatible with their existing CD collection. The music industry (err, I mean "the copyright industry", as Jack Valenti recently described it) simply cannot force the consumers to switch to the new media and they know it. CDs will remain the de facto standard for years to come. (**)
Think before you post.

(*) I am sure some audiophile will claim that CDs don't sound right. I am talking about the normal people here (you know, like 99% of the audience, the once who listen to the music not the sound).

(**) I think the only thing that can change that is a massive switch to online distribution of music, in which case the question of media becomes moot. It remains to be seen how well this will play out. And for some reason I don't have a good feeling about it... hmmm wonder why? Probably something to do with the copy control crap.

Damn....

[smash]

... Looks like I'm going to have to plug my stereo into my PC via line-in and sample the damn tracks to encode them so I can listen to them on my pc, instead of just playing the CD.

seeing as I have them mp3'd I may as well share them so that other customers can do the same.

fucking half-wits.

its obviously some "scheme" to prevent mp3 sharing, but its so obviously flawed its not funny.

smash

ps. i dont listen to celine dion. i was using the above as an example only.. :)

This CD will play on a Windows PC

[Anonymous Coward]

This CD will play on a PC if you use the SONY key2audio4pc software. This software not only plays a key2audio locked CD but "also allows labels to offer consumers value added features such as bonus tracks, artist information, concert dates, etc. "

The site fails to mention weather you have to be connected to the internet or not while you are using the software. (It sounds like you do have to be connected to recieve the value added components.)

http://www.key2audio.com/technology/key2audio4pc .a sp

This is just another money makeing excercise by sony descised as a service.

Sony's Losses

[Anonymous Coward]

I fail to see how this is anything but a bad business decision on Sony's part. What they are doing is exactly the same as if they were only releasing the concert video on VHS, and not DVD... They are breaking down, what until now had been 2 compatible/comprable media types. Computer Audio CD's and Entertainment Audio CD's. As someone mentioned earlier, Philips might have something to say about that...

But if they're making a conscious effort not to support one or the other more power to them, since it narrows their consumer base.

Hell, the only stereo I own is 2,000 miles away. All my music needs are met through my computers. Not that I would listen to Celine Dion anyway, but that's another story all together.

Does this change anything?

[simmonsays]

Sony just doesn't get it. There are plenty of ways to copy a CD (RCA output anybody?) It only takes one digital copy to work itself around a P2P network. Despite this 'protection', I was able to run a quick search on Kazaa that pulled up the entire album.... not that she is even worth my bandwidth

Re:Does this change anything?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah leeching and pirating is the way to get ahead in life right loser? Can I come over to your house and steal your property also?

But wouldn't screw other things?

[swv3752]

Of course if you play it in your PS2 or Sony DVD player and it screws it up, well then my neighbor, I would think you would have Sony by the Shorthairs.

Re:But wouldn't screw other things?

[MsGeek]

Of course if you play it in your PS2 or Sony DVD player and it screws it up, well then my neighbor, I would think you would have Sony by the Shorthairs.

Ah...and what if the CD fux0red your shiny new VAIO?

Be afraid, Sony. Be very afraid.

That's the end of Australian Copy-machines

[famazza]

Well, this is the Sony's answer to the Public CD Copy Machine. Have you ever believe that this will be unanswerd?

Innocent morons will try to duplicate Dion's CD and will actually being crashing every Copy-machine in Australia!

I should have known from the start!

Sony Shooting themselves in the feet

[Vryl]

Does anyone else think that Sony et al are shooting themselves in the feet here?

I mean, they are making a product that is LESS useful than what you can get on the net. So, if I want to hear artist X on my PC, I can't. I am forced to go to the net to download an 'unauthorised copy'.

This copy has greater utility than the Sony offering. I can copy it, burn it to CD that will play on my PC, or my CD player, play with it, share it etc etc

This is a form of madness. They are creating demand for P2P networks and filesharing with this policy.

Re:Sony Shooting themselves in the feet

[Rogerborg]

• This is a form of madness. They are creating demand for P2P networks and filesharing with this policy

Yes, and follow that through. These guys aren't idiots. The more they can demonstrate that Evil Hackers are ripping their stuff, damaging the economy and destabilising the Free World, the easier it gets to shove the CBDTPA through. When that happens, all bets are off.

Headline: Sony releases new Celine Dion Virus

[JWSmythe]

New York, NY (AP) -- Sony releases Celine Dion Virus.

Sony Music Entertainment Corporation was today found guilty of releasing an audio compact disc (commonly known as CD), which has been found to intentionally cause personal computers to operate erratically or completely fail to operate ("crash" in computer lingo).

Federal Authorities find the New York based company guilty of cyberterrorism. Repeated contacts to Sony's various divisions returned the official statement of "No Comment."

In related news, Microsoft has announced today that it's newest product, Windows XYZ, touted as the best version of Windows every, will be released to the public tommorrow. Beta testers around the world report that it protects users against the Celine Dion Virus. Federal authorities are investigating Microsoft for Anti-DMCA charges relating to the reverse engineering of Sony's software.

Re:Dearest Michael

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't think you can win because you're ANAL? Maybe if you weren't so pushy about it...

Missing the Point

[Anonymous Coward]

I see alot of funny comments about how awful Celine Dion's music is, and while I agree.. we're missing the point. This is only the beginning. Of course it's a shitty cd.. but you have to admit she has a large following. And Sony is watching what the general public's reaction is to this, they are trying to see if they can weather the storm. And all we seem to be doing is making jokes.

I for one, am no longer buying ANY Sony products and have let them know about it. While its going to be torture to keep from buying new PS2 games. I'm not about to make a company that treats it's customer's like shit a penny richer off of my money. I strongly suggest we all do the same, and urge all of our friends and relatives do the same.

Let 'em do it.

[Moneky-Boy]

Let them piss all over them selves. It's not like you can't hook a portable cd player with a digital out to a computer. So more people will do this and then there will be even more MP3's.

Re:Dearest Michael

[Reality Master 101]

Why does Monster.com have a boilerplate policy [monster.com] which clearly states that their statements are not to be interpreted as legal advice? They're just a techie-oriented career site... why would they be worried?

Two reasons: 1) Legal paranoia to head off nusiance suits, and 2) Because they're not a techie-oriented career site; they are a career job searching site with original articles giving career advice. Since it's a career site, there is a reasonable expectation that advice on the site is given by experts in career counseling.

Exactly what sort of expert advice does one expect at Slashdot, a tech-oriented news digest?

Michael's statements are the exact sort of damning legal advice Monster is trying to protect itself from.

No, because there is no reasonable expectation of expert opinion at Slashdot. It's a news digest.

And expert opinion isn't even enough in most cases. Put it this way: If Tom Brokaw publishes a news editorial that it's his opinion that it's safe to travel in the middle east, and I go ahead and travel and am seriously injured, can I sue Brokaw for giving a bad opinion? That would be a big fat NO, even though there IS a reasonable expectation that he is an expert and would know these things. It's called freedom of speech.

Your statement was designed to inflame reasonable people who have a clue. Yes I call you a Troll, and you can giggle at me for replying all you want, ma'am.

Just because I'm smarter than you doesn't make me a troll. :)

Actually, there is a strategy here to exploit

[Anonymous Coward]

The next time you're in a music store, hang around near the Celine Dion CDs...

When someone comes to buy one, just strike up a pleasant conversation with them as you browse the racks. Pretend to be Joe Average Clueless Consumer... Don't lecture them on copywrongs or whatever just say after a bit of conversation...

"Hey, I heard that CD can break your equipment sometimes."

Be vague and unspecific. Pretend (or don't pretend, since its not like this is a super factual article) that you aren't real clear on the details, but a friend of a friend of yours bought the CD and now all his stereo equipment is RUINED.

If a few thousand people planted this meme a half dozen times at a few stores, it probably would grow, particularly if the label has a cute little logo that can be easily identified in the future.

This could have a serious impact on sales of this CD. This would hurt the music industry. The music industry desperately needs to be hurt this way.

Its actually my greatest hope that the current industry does something so boneheadedly wrong that it permanently destroys their client base. I would laugh for days if they managed to paint their customers into so tight a corner that they didn't buy music anymore and the whole house of cards collapsed on itself.

If 10 years from now the only music you could buy was homegrown local stuff or stuff intended to be freely downloadable in the FIRST place, I think I'd consider that a win.

You wouldn't have a choice

[Sycraft-fu]

I buy everything on credit card. So I decide to return the CD. You say no. I'll drop it on your counter and walk out of the store. When I get home, I write a letter to the bank issuing the card stating that I'm not paying the charge. Guess what? As the law requires they will block this charge and I won't pay a dime. Your only recourse is to sue me in small claims court, however given that I did actually give you the CD back, it's doubtful you'd even get anything if you did.

Jumping the gun.

[mar1no]

If this is at all possible, could you somehow link up your cd player to output using a conversion cord, which would allow it to be plugged into a cd-rom audio connection on the motherboard and then record the cd from there?

Or even output the audio to a line in and simply record it ? Or does this lose quality?

Re:Jumping the gun.

[octogen]

> Or even output the audio to a line in and simply
> record it ? Or does this lose quality?

You could link a Music-CD-Recorder (Pioneer D5 or something... ~ $ 400,-) to your Audio-CD-Player's ANALOG line out and simply record it.

Of course, it loses some quality. However, most pop recordings have already lost most of their quality when they were recorded/arranged/remixed/mastered, because most producers use a lot of effect devices, limiters, compressor gates and other devices which cause sound distortion and coloration.
So this ONE analog copy really doesn't matter (as long as you use high-quality cable connections and good DA/AD converters).

All you need is one Audio-CD Player and one Audio-CD-Recorder (Pioneer D5 or something, ~ $ 400,-) - alternatively you could also use a high-end Soundcard in your PC (cre@mware tripleDAT...) and a CD-R drive.

After you've created one analog clone copy of the copy-protected master cd, you can create an unlimited number of digital copies of the clone cd.

Sony

[Cerebris]

You know, I find this amusing: what if the PC had a Sony DVD or CD drive? Would it still crash then?

Talk about absurd. When product crashes another product made by the same company...well, maybe it's not so absurd after all. I mean, Microsoft stays in business...

-Colin

It's called a "buffer"

[Mashiki]

and in finishing;
Overflow

I seem to remeber linux and serveral other OS's recently having problems with this. Though via diffrent programs.

Don't buy anything from Sony and let them know.

[theolein]

I just wrote a mail to Music informing them that I will never again buy a Sony product, any Sony product. They treat me and my Mac like dirt - fine I can do that too.

The rise of protected memory.....

[Jeff Benjamin]

Maybe this is a good thing, maybe this will force all future operating systems to use protected memory and other such practices that make crashes less of an occurance.

Online retailers don't state disability

[ejoe_mac]

Just to prove a point, I have looked at both Amazon and CDNow's sites and neither one state that the disk won't play on a computer. So I can buy it online, but can't play it on my desktop.

BTW - Has anyone tried to play this on a console system? I can see it crashing a XBox just because of the underlying OS.

Re:Online retailers don't state disability

[grahamm]

amazon.co.uk plainly state that it does not work on PCs.

Re:Moderators need to get informed!

[Anonymous Coward]

I think your mentally deficient posts make it rather clear that you are not worthy of moderation points.

It worked for big Tobacco, didn't it?

[geoswan]

...any company could take away consumer's rights by just issuing warnings. What if I opened up a store with a big sign out front stating, "Warning! ...

I don't have time right now to cite actual court cases, but it seems to me that consumers have basic rights, and that companies have to have damn good reasons for taking them away.

Isn't that what the Tobacco companies are arguing? Their packs of smokes have warnings on them, so they are not responsible when those who "enjoy" their products get cancer?

Some have suggested that Big Tobacco has had a deep, long term strategy, and that the objections they made to carrying the warnings, a decade or two ago, were just for show. This suggestion is that they anticipated all kinds of lawsuits, and wanted a decade or more of warnings to absolve them of responsibility.

Paranoid security after 9/11.

[Talinom]

A few thoughts:

OK, in the post 9/11 world this could be used as a terrorist device. Put one of these CDs on a computer that is supposed to be crash or hack resistant and watch it go boom.

Does this mean that Sony can be sued by a company that had a person crash their network using this device? I thought the US government was working on legislating stuff like this.

Won't the companies that will be retailing these also be selling computers? How happy will they be when some hacker d00d puts one of these in their computers and ruins it.

MD output

[nullard]

Copy protection is built-in; there are no digital outs on any minidiscs

My Sony stereo has a special mode for copying Minidiscs to tape. There's even a button for it on the remote and a special input on the back of the stereo itself.

Doesn't say anything 'bout SPARCs. :-)

[mrbrown1602]

The CD warning label only says "Does not play on PC or Mac"... how about Sun SPARCstations or a high-end server that doesn't qualify as a "PC". I say somebody has a damn good lawsuit on their hands. :-)

Goedel, Escher, Bach

[connorbd]

To anyone who hasn't read this, go to your nearest bookstore (or just order it from Amazon) and get a copy of Goedel, Escher, Bach by Douglas Hofstadter. There is a whole chapter on the subject of albums called "I Cannot Be Played On Record Player X". Rather funny in its frustrating repetitiveness.

/Brian

This just in: C�line's thoughts on this!

[Scrameustache]

I just saw Céline and her manger/husband on TV speak of this (lucky me, I was zapping around on tv and just stumbled on a rerun of her press conference).

It was mostly René Angelil doing the talking (the manager/husband), and he was...not clear.

What he said is that the CDs sold in europe can break your computer (to wich Céline said "Ouch, that's gonna cost 'em"), its only sold that way in europe, for now, but might come to america soon. Then he said there are two sides to this story, the first part is that music makes you feel a lot of emotions are is very important in people's lives and not everyone can afford CDs because they are a bit expensive, especially for teenagers. The second part is that authors and singers and producers need to get paid, and the big companies meet every year and they are working on technology for music that can be downloaded that will get paid for, but the technology isn't ready. So in europe they are much more agressive, but this technology might come to america soon.

So, he's not being clear at all...and this is loosely translated from french, but that's pretty much what they said about it.

So, to summerise: These copy-protected CDs might break their fan's computer, and they feel this is harsh. They wished that people could listen to their emotionally-charged songs for free, but they want to get paid.

So...if people actually PAY for the CDs, its ok to break their expensive computers?

Shit, now I am scared

[keymygrip]

I don't think I will buy another CD. I don't want their crap breaking my machine. From now on it is straight rips so I don't have to worry about damaging my hardware.

Re:Who cares about MACs?

[aldazar]

I do hope your "I have no toleranse for stupidity" is a joke. You misspelled "tolerance".

I only know about Mac's

[WildBeast]

Apparently the CD will delete some Mac OS system files, that's what I heard from the news. They didn't say anything about Windows or Linux yet.

OT: Dub Pistols

[TMB]

Not only do I, but I've got a shirt of theirs. :) "Filth, Scum & Vermin". Gets lots of great looks.

Saw them live in September, and they put in a great show. Now if only I could find Six Million Ways... somewhere around here.

[TMB]

Re:OT: Dub Pistols

[red5]

Yah Dub pistols were a bad example.
There on the blade 2 soundtrack and the game frequency on PS2.
Still a good band though ;)

TIME TO HIT SONY WHERE IT HURTS!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck it's time to hit where it hurts! Sony bastards! Let's rip this bitch and spread it like hell on the internet! Let's spread it like never before.

Disturbingly Hot Coffee

[Cossie]

Anyone driving with a cup of hot coffee held between their legs in one of those cheap little cups who then manages to spill it should be charged with recklessly endangering the other drivers on the road, NOT given the right to sue the people who made the coffee hot.

Anyway, the coffee WAS too hot. That doesn't mean that the consumer didn't also have a responsibility to take note that the cup was giving off a lot of heat and therefore it might be best to let the stuff cool down a bit. Some settlement wouldn't be too unreasonable, millions of dollars is simply foolishness.

Re:Disturbingly Hot Coffee

[Violet Null]

Anyone driving with a cup of hot coffee held between their legs

a) She was not driving
b) At the time the coffee spilled, the car was stopped.

Some settlement wouldn't be too unreasonable, millions of dollars is simply foolishness.

The award was $160,000 for compensatory damages (to cover the third degree burns), and $2.7 in punitive damages. You might say, "Wow, $2.7 million is a lot for punitive damages," but McDonalds had a history of these complaints (700+), and had still not done anything about them.

Of course, the $2.7 mil was reduced to $480,000, and then the plaintiff and McDonalds entered into a secret agreement, so it's kind of moot.

Kind of ironic

[reo_kingu]

I remember one time playing a cd in my computer, and instead of my cd player software automatically loading it, a bunch of autorun stuff came up. Nothing related to the music either; it was trying to install AOL software. This was the first time I'd seen this kind of thing, and at the time I was really worried about the implications.
The ironic part? It was a Celine Dion cd.

OpenFirmware...

[MsGeek]

"On the German discussion boards at MacFixit, Mac users claim that the CD will not eject using normal methods and that the intentional corruption of the disc's session data could unpredictably affect the drive's firmware." But Sony said that the firmware problem is not real.

If the "firmware" they are talking about is OpenFirmware, then yes, this is a real and nasty problem. OpenFirmware is the Mac's bootloader. It exists whether you run MacOS X, Classic MacOS, or even Linux on Mac. It lives in FLASH ROM. It is VITAL to a New World Mac...if that gets fux0red you have a very shapely, very cute DOORSTOP until an Apple Authorized Service Center REFLASHES the ROM.

This is the Audio CD equivalent of the Chernobyl virus.

Re:OpenFirmware...

[mpe]

This is the Audio CD equivalent of the Chernobyl virus.

Is this another issue of one rule for real people and another for large corporates? I somehow can't see the US government adding Sony Music to it's "Axis of Evil(tm)".

Re:OpenFirmware...

[Ryan Amos]

No, the firmware they're referring to is that of the drive. CD and DVD drives have firmware as well, and these are usually user-flashable. In the case of DVD drives, it usually contains what region the drive is (thus you can often make a drive all-region if you have the correct firmware patch.) So if it fucks up your drive, you just re-flash it. Granted, this is a pain in the ass, but it's not catastrophic.

Open Firmware in fact is rather hard to overwrite. You really have to try (read: know what you're doing) to do it. I've fucked around with OF a good deal, enough do know you're not going to destroy it beyond repair without knowing full well that you could. It's like a PC BIOS, the only way to wreck it is to flash it with the wrong flashfile (and the flashers usually have checks to make sure you don't do this.) Check what you're talking about before you get all hysterical about this. It's not very nice, but it's no Chernobyl.

No PS2 now

[ironfroggy]

I'm finally able to afford a Playstation 2. I've been looking forward to this for a very long time.

However, after their little "cactus" bullshit and now this, I'm boycotting Sony. Anyone care to join the cause?

Re:No PS2 now

[thunderbee]

Get real. Every now and then Sony does something that really pisses everyone (here at last). Then someone like you calls for a boycott and maybe two or three guys agree. A week later, Sony is out with a new slick gadget and the whole sheep pack drops all pretense of guts or political awareness and flocks back to Sony.
Same goes for Windoze. Everyone here is M$ bashing, but I bet more than 50% of the hits on slashdot are MS IE. Bah.
I'm boycotting Sony since one of their VP had his talk about stoping MP3 by all means (at the provider, at the PC, ...). I really am. Even when they have their new Clié out.
If you want to, just do it. Don't expect others to follow, and dont act only if they do, 'cause they won't.

Perfectly legal

[jeti]

He seems to be a UK citizen. The protected CD is only sold in Europe.

So how could the DMCA possibly apply?

Re:Who gives a shit!

[Inthewire]

Talk about groups like Nine Inch Nails, Tool, Aphex Twin, Squarepusher, Vex Red.. that's what I'm talking about.. these bands are ALL about what the fan himself/herself want..

All you know about me is what I've sold you,
Dumb fuck.
I sold out long before you ever heard my name.
I sold my soul to make a record,
Dip shit,
And you bought one.

-- Tool, Hooker with a Penis

Actually, the can use the logo

[XNormal]

This "protection" mechanism violates the CDROM standards but is fully compliant with CDDA standars.

Re:Actually, the can use the logo

[Uerige]

If this CD is CDDA compliant, then why won't it play in my computer's CD drive, which is also?

Re:Actually, the can use the logo

[XNormal]

The CDROM drive looks for extra information which is not described by the Red Book but not disallowed by it either.

I'm not saying I like what they are doing, but it appears to be CDDA compliant so they can use the logo.

But what about the Unices?

[Anonymous Coward]

Every time there's a story on Slashdot about a new copy protection scheme, there's no information on what software can bypass it for Linux and other Unices. Can cdparanoia handle it? cdda2wav? Others? Does new software need to be written in order to bypass all this cruft?

Re:But what about the Unices?

[Anonymous Coward]

Using Gnome recorder while playing the CD with the Gnome CD player generates a .wav file.

You should have seen the damage it did.

[racerx509]

I went to the store today and bought the new Celine Dion cd and tried to play it on my windows pc. A few seconds later, the computer crashed! You should have seen the dent it left in my floor.

Intentional Harm? Ooh yeah.

[MsGeek]

It's worse...the accusation is that the CD fux0rs Open Firmware which is a "New World" Mac's BIOS. Basically this CD is the Chernobyl Virus for Macs. By "New World" I mean iMac, iBook, G3 Blue and White, and all G4 Macs.

That's a lot of Macs which could be rendered useless...consider all the iMacs that have been sold.

Re:Intentional Harm? Ooh yeah.

[jakew]

Now I wouldn't suggest for a moment that Sony's behaviour is anything short of despicable. But shouldn't we treat this like any other security vulnerability? I mean, this CD is basically acting no differently from any other trojan. Shouldn't we make sure that data should not be able to crash hardware, software, or firmware?

A further thought - isn't damaging someone's computer without their consent a criminal act in the USA? Ok, so there is apparently a sticker saying 'will not play in PCs or Macs', but to my mind that's like selling a poison and saying 'will not taste good'. Surely since they appear to be selling a red book CD, the obligation to warn in order to avoid the consequences would be on the seller? Surely it must be illegal to sell a product that appears to be (say) an apple, but is really toxic, unless it is made incredibly obvious that it is in fact dangerous?

The Consumer Society

[krmt]

Oopsie, the RIAA didn't stay on the ball, and now their business model that THEY CREATED is turning against them.

Very true, although I think it might be even bigger than that. It's not just the business model that the RIAA created, it's the model that all of society has created for us. It's like that one (great) .sig around... "I'm not merely a consumer or taxpayer. I am a citizen of the United States." Well, we're looked at as just that... consumers. We have been trained extensively to consume shit. It's not about buying things, or else they'd call us "customers". No... we're consumers, we're meant to suck up as much as they give us and beg for more. This is the way to sell us more crap than if we were merely meant to buy it. Consuming it gives us motivation to buy more and more.

The problem is that the model has totally backfired here. We've been programmed to consume so much that we're all doing it far too well for them now. We can consume and consume and consume all we want now without them acting as our (drug) dealers. We're not taught to buy our stuff, we're taught to devour it. Hence, no one sees any problem with not buying CD's because we've been taught that the purpose is not to buy as much as we can, but to have as much as we can. This is why people fill up their hard drives with MP3's and movies and why my roomate has cases and cases full of burned CD's.

I think this also explains why companies are more focused on regaining control than on increasing sales. Rather than add extras to the CD's to make them worth buying, or dropping the price, they try to regain control of access. It's stemming consumption at will that matters. Before it was good enough to control what bands got promoted via radio. Then it was MTV. Now it's bigger than that. Because people can download whatever they can make their own playlists. Granted, a lot of it is the stuff that the record companies are pushing heavily, but a lot of it is stuff they wouldn't expect, like older favorites that aren't the flavor of the month. Suddenly radio and MTV doesn't hold as much sway any more, and their control is weakened. At the end of the day, this is what it's about. It's not so much about profit in itself, but about control, because control guarantees profit.

We've all been trained too well, including the RIAA themselves. We've all been brainwashed in to consuming everything. The RIAA has been brainwashed the same way, which is why they're so focused on the control aspect. Finding ways to increase sales would suit them better than what they're doing. Unfortunately, I doubt they'll see the light until someone stands up and shows it to them with a spreadsheet and a stock quote.

The irony

[Anonymous Coward]

To make the lawsuit even better you have to play the Sony Music CD on a Sony CD-ROM Player that has been advertised to be able to play music CDs. That will make the case even more interesting.

I don't think your logic is valid.

[Crag]

I'll have to check out the link, but...

Yes, wav -> mp3 will throw out "inaudible" data.

mp3 -> wav will not put that data back in.

wav (minus inaudible) -> mp3 will NOT throw anything away because the wav is already has less information than the original wav. That is, nothing needs to be thrown away to make the data fit into 128kbits/s or 192kbits/s or whatever. That is, since the information was lost the first time it doesn't need to be lost again.

What am I missing?

Re:I don't think your logic is valid.

[ddent]

Unfortunately, codecs these days aren't as good as that. They throw away different data. Try running DV through the codec at the exact same settings a few times to see what I mean. (believe it or not, DV is lossy, at a compression of about 5:1).

Re:Windows - NO what about Linux?

[grahamm]

It plays fine on my Linux system at home (in the DVD drive). Occasionally when it loads it claims that all the tracks are data with length 0, but re-inserting the CD cures this. But it will not play on my standalone DVD player.

Damage Mac CD-ROM

[pellemell]

If a damaged CD can seriously and permanently damage a CD-ROM player there is some serious error in the firmware of that drive.
If a web server would crash when it got a bad request we would sure send a bug report to the vendor and I can't quite see the difference here. The CD may be defect but so is the CD-ROM drive.
(of course that doesn't justify selling defect (pseudo) audio CDs, especially not with Celine Dion)

Achtung!

[Jormundgard]

Attention michael: Celine Dion will never read Slashdot!

Re:I HAVE A GOOD PORK SANDWICH STORY YOU FUCKERS

[rixkix]

Like that was a lot better.

Always a work around

[Nonillion]

Guess this means I'll never buy another Sony product, I now feel ashamed that I bought a new Sony TV a few months ago. Listen Sony, there will ALWAYS be a work around. If it dosent work on my PC I'll try my Sun box, if not then I'll just use my CD player assuming it dosen't crash my CD player...

rm -r sony

Not a CD...

[Anonymous Coward]

When is a CD not a CD? When it won't play in my CD-ROM drive? Since this Sony 'protection' scam isn't defined in the Redbook standard for CD-A, then the disc clearly isn't a pukka CD..

Either way, I feel compelled to protect my hardward by never purchasing another Sony product again...

How long before we start getting patches to workaround this at the drive's firmware level anyway?

Sony CD-ROM Drives

[clickety6]

On their web page, Sony claim their CD-ROM drives for their VAIO computers will allow you to "quickly access software program and music CDs". Not this music CD it won't, which means one of Sony's arms is making false advertising claim. Either Celine Dion isn't a music CD or the CD-ROM drive is unable to play music CDs.

How?

[NWT]

How does that thing crash your computer? or is it the os? does it crash on linux, too? or with freebsd?

I dont have a cdplayer, Just a PC and an AMP

[John2_UK]

what a shame i cant listen to that shite cd, well sony has just made me have to download there cd's in the future as I am unable to buy their cds for home hahaha what an own Goal, and i have about 450 cd's oh well silly sony
and if i hadnt saved any work and put a cd in my drive and lost all my data GRRRRRRRRR specially if it was clients work.

Conglomeration Domination

[technizmo]

Key2Audio is a product of Sony DADC, a 100% affiliate of Sony Corp of America headquartered in Austria.

...and doesn't Japan have something to do with Sony as well?

Consumers are a nuisance for a company this large, and will be treated as such.

Fabulous way to encourage me not to buy

[Perianwyr Stormcrow]

If I'm under the impression that even trying to rip a CD is going to fiddle badly with some element of my machine's configuration, does anyone think I'll purchase the CD? Hell no, I'll hit IRC first.

This is what we call A BRILLIANT PLAN.

Stop whining

[Jesus IS the Devil]

I hear lots of whining going on, but look at it this way. If people weren't so bent on ripping mp3's and sharing them with the rest of the world through the popuplar p2p piracy network, would they have done this? NO.

And attacking Celine Dion? What does she have to do with it? She is under contract with the record labels. They can make or break a musician. It's not like she has a real choice either.

Re:Stop whining

[Anonymous Coward]

B.S.

I remember the DAT fight. That was back when it was obvious that audio could be put on computers, but before MP3 trading was widespread.

The first thing the record companies proposed was CopyCode, a system that would put an audible notch in all prerecorded music. The idea was that any recorder -- digital OR analog -- that detected the notch would refuse to record.

How did they do it?

[sondergleichen.org]

Guess the CD is setting up a Windows installation first to let the computer crash?

Cutting nose off to spite the face.

[downundarob]

Well it seems that the new single will NOT be played on the radio station I volunteer at. If we are not able to make the (leaglly permitted) ethereal recording of the CD and encode it on the the digital playsystem used in the studio, then it wont go to air. Simple as that really.

No air play, no publicity:
no publicity, no sales.

This could be quite easy to defend in court

[BoxedFlame]

The DMCA strictly forbids owning and selling of circumvention devices, and that is truly what a PC is. Suing Sony because your illegal device crashed when you tried to circumvent copyright protection on a CD seems fruitless at best, and catastrophic at worst. I can see it before me: PCs outlawed under the DMCA. Lawyers running around with stone axes chopping computers in pieces.

funny?

[leuk_he]

Am i missing something? Why would you want to do this?

1. Make rippable cd's ?
For some strange reason the music industry wants the opposite? If you really want to help this why not add a bonus cd that contains all the mp3's and a videoclip that plays on PC/DVD. CD's are cheap to produce!
2. Provide previews of a cd on a web site.
mp3.com wants to get the mp3 on the web for you
3. Why not just stick to the standard?
Your 5 year old ripping software is the best when offered standard cd's.

4."sounds like ass"
I don't (want to) know what your ass sounds like.

Whats next??

[upt1me]

Whats next, am I going to have to buy a Sony Cd player to listen to my sony protected bullshit cd? If a CD is not ripable, it is not buyable. I hardly listen to actual CDS, all my 300+ CDs are ripped, none of which are shared on P2P, why should I be penalized for my neihbor boy who is sharing 100 MP3z on Kazza????

Re:Whats next??

[Jesus IS the Devil]

Blame it on the 99% of the other rippers who are nothing but leeching pirates. Don't blame the record companies from wanting to protect themselves.

Re:Whats next??

[upt1me]

No matter what they do, there will always be a way to rip a track of a cd. There will always be people trading, swapping, leeching pirated tracks. Yah, they are going to make it hard for the average Joe to make his own mp3z, but that same average Joe can jump on one of the P2P networks and download the tracks he wants. They are fighting a never ending battle, which costs money, which in turn will be passed off to the honest, loyal customer who actually goes and buys the CD for $15 - $20.

This protection prevents listening on regular HiFi

[Anonymous Coward]

On:

http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/cd_prot ections_key2audio.shtml

Is this quote:

A digital-2-digital (digital CD output to digital CD-Recorder/MD input) generates an "Copy Prohibit" or "Cannot Copy" error message!

I have a HiFi system which delivers digital data to the ampiflier, which has a DSP processor (all modern A/V receivers are like this). This way I avoid introducing the noise/distorsions through audio cables between CD player and ampifiler, and also let the ampifiler process the digital signal better than CD player would do.

I use all normal HiFi components, and just use the digital connection between them through optical cable between my CD player and my ampiflier.

In short, the disk with stated protection wouldn't play on my HiFi system. Note: I don't use any computer.

And that is not stated on the sticker. Fantastic reason to buy, open and return the opened disk to the store.

At the end, Sony'd have to put on the sticker something like:

"this disk won't play on Mac, PC and on digital HiFi systems"

CD disk which you can't play on digital HiFi systems -- only on analog ones -- it's really a good buy. ;>

Even if somebody at the moment doesn't have the system which I explained (and a lot of people can upgrade the present systems to it by just buying once optical cable), why would anybody buy a CD which wouldn't work once he improves his HiFi system?

voice your comtempt....

[xirtam_work]

we could all visit her online chat room and fill it with the voices of our comtempt!

Visit: http://www.celinedion.com/english/rendez-vous_live chat.html

and be heard!

Another warning?

[Domini]

They clearly warn the people about the possible damage to your PC CD player....

All they now need to do is ward you about the quality of the performance... anyone with the bad taste to buy Celine Dion albums deserves a crashed PC.

-sigh-

Disclaimer: I don't have a problem with the style of music, just the esceution thereof. (A Problem with the messenger, not the message...)

Needs to be said...

[Anonymous Coward]

homo.

A shotgun is meant to ...

[leuk_he]

A shotgun is meant to hunt birds

First: if you post this at "news for nerds" you should know that a gun is more useful to Shoot yourself in the foot with a gun.

2nd: Why hunt birds? did they anything wrong for you or are you hungry?

the normal use of Celine Dion CDs will be to launch them as clay pidgeons

CD's are much to light for this. You would first have to collect some of them and mold them into a better launchabe package.

Re:A shotgun is meant to ...

[Arandir]

2nd: Why hunt birds? did they anything wrong for you or are you hungry?

Because shotguns have proven to be inferior for the purposes of hunting elk. They are better suited to hunting birds.

:-)

Declare Sony international terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

Was'nt there a recent law in the US that made messing with other peoples computers an act of terrorism ?

Sony's behaviour is like sending a letter bomb with a warning 'The contents of this envelope are not readable with +1 lenses' on it

After rebooting the crashed machine...

[DocSnyder]

# fsck /dev/sr0
fsck 1.27 (8-Mar-2002)
Could not determine filesystem type for /dev/sr0

You see, the CD is fscked.

Sue the retailers

[equus]

There's bound to be retailers who market this as Celine's latest CD. But, if this truly does not conform to Red Book standards, then complain to/sue the retailer for selling you a duff product. Sony's far more likely to take notice of them than Joe Public.

Slashdotters

[Celine Dion]

I've had enough of your snide remarks! This just confirms what Hilary told me about you geeks! I haven't seen a single nice comment about me in this entire thread and there are nearly six hundred comments! I know the only reason you'd put a CD in a computer is to pirate it because Jack Valenti told me, and he's definitely smarter and more honest than anyone here. So next time you try to steal my music, you're going to pay!

Hah!!!

Re:Slashdotters

[ConceptJunkie]

Don't worry, when we listen to it, we _will_ be paying...

What about the DVD players?

[Saint Fnordius]

After all, I use my DVD player as the home stereo's CD player as well. Will it play on that as well? What about newer players with MP3 disc capabilities? Are these owners left out in the cold as well?

I may not buy this, but my wife likes this sort of crap (the music, not the protection scheme). She's already pissed that her Orange Blue CD's no longer work on the main home stereo machine, nor on the iBook. There, the warning was fine print on the CD itself, and noticed way too late.

Yet another artist we won't be patronising, not even merchandise. A shame. If only more people in the business would realise we are their patrons, not their dairy livestock.

No online warning

[jt007]

They say that there is a clear warning on the jewel case and so you can tell before you purchase the item that it will crash your computer. However if you try and buy it on amazon, there is no such warning. I would have thought the majority of people buying music online would be the type of person who would play their music on a pc and so they should definately know before buying it.

Slashdotters

[Celine Dion]

I've had enough of your snide remarks! This just confirms what Hilary told me about you geeks! I haven't seen a single nice comment about me in this entire thread and there are over eight hundred comments! I know the only reason you'd put a CD in a computer is to pirate it because Jack Valenti told me, and he's definitely smarter and more honest than anyone here. So next time you try to steal my music, you're going to pay!

Hah!!!

I have three words for you....

[seanadams.com]

Now with this CD from Sony Music I am unable to use my Sony PC Link to enjoy this music I have (hypothetically) purchased using my Sony MD Walkman.

CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT!

Normally I hate these - lawyers benefiting from 100,000 people suing because they lost $0.10 due to their light bulbs not lasting as long as the manufacturer claimed.

However, this is a blantant lie on the part of Sony. I say sue - even if lawyers get all the money, it's an effective punitive measure. Fuck these assholes at Sony.

Some of the trouble with "theft"

[jbn-o]

How about, say, theft of income?

Although I disagree with the use of the propaganda term "piracy", this summary from a footnote in the landmark Diamond Rio case, the case that opened the door for portable MP3 players, is otherwise agreeable:

"Whether or not piracy causes such financial harm is a subject of dispute. Critics of the industry's piracy loss figures have noted that a willingness to download illicit files for free does not necessarily correlate to lost sales, for the simple reason that persons willing to accept an item for free often will not purchase the same item, even if no longer freely available. See Lewis Kurlantzick & Jacqueline E. Pennino, The Audio Home Recording Act of 1992 and the Formation of Copyright Policy, 45 J. Copyright Soc'y U.S.A. 497, 506 (1998). Critics further note that the price of commercially available recordings already reflects the existence of copying and the benefits and harms such copying causes; thus, they contend, the current price of recordings offsets, at least in part, the losses incurred by the industry from home taping and piracy."

To which I'd also add that even if one were to pay for the music CD, it's not clear that one would pay the publisher for it. There are venues to legally obtain the music CD without paying the publisher (public libraries and any second-hand sale) in which case multiple people can listen to the music as the music licensee but only result in one sale for the publisher. Your burger example doesn't help eludicate understanding of copyright at all. A burger cook working for someone else doesn't hold a copyright on the burgers.

The simple fact is, the result of my thinking is MY property, and I have a right to control what happens to it, be it placing it into the public domain, or selling copies of it to make money.

Too simple; simplistic, really. I'm not sure what you mean by the "result" of your thoughts, but your thoughts are not copyrightable, copyright law in the US only protects certain expression of ideas. How much control you have over that expression is not anywhere near as simple as you have made it out to be (your burger scenario, for example, would not allow me to do as I wished with the burger; sometimes there are patents that can interfere with your ability to legally distribute a work copyrighted to you). You should find the book I recommended earlier (ISBN: 0-8147-8806-8). It will painlessly get you up to speed in understanding copyright. I found it a worthwhile read and I hope you do too.

Independant

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, indie is short for independant, meaning not a major label.

Indie as a type of music is typically non-mainstream guitar-type music.

BTW, Britney Spears is (at least in the UK) technically an Indie artist...

hmm..

[newr00tic]

I've set my computer to crash whenever the high-pitches of Celine Dion appears anyway. Way to go Sony! ... =)

Sony's plan seems to be working..

[gsfprez]

http://homepage.mac.com/gsf/celinesucks.jpg

oh wait... never mind.. i misread the article.. i thought it said that they WANTED to see it all over the internet freely available...

my bad.. sorry.

Where is th right?

[awol]

Can someone please explain why an artist should be entitled to income from recorded music? (and for music here one can substitute "art")

Now before you all jump down my throat, think about it for a minute. Before Edison, there was no recorded music and yet artists still made a living (ok, only some of them, just like today). Perhaps many less of them, but then there were many less consumers of music. The reasons for the increase in consumers of music are many, from increased econimic capacity through to the existence of recorded music to give the consumers a taste of the material. So in at least one sense, recorded music actually is _advertising_. The problem is that supply and demand has ceased to operate. Sure demand may well be very high, but supply (without copying) is restricted without cause, that is, there is no scarcity. Well at least it is my contention that there is no scarcity and hence there should be no cost (air is free :-)

Now before you say, but how does a musician make a living, well the answer is performance. Here, supply is restricted, there are only so many tickets to venue X on Tuesday the fifteenth, so if you want to enjoy the performance you must pay. This makes good economic sense. If you are popular enough to fill a stadium then you will be rich. If not then you will be a gigging band who does pubs and cabaret and you will be poor. Just like today, except that the big bands are even richer from the misallocation of resources due to recordings.

I cannot see this arrangement continuing.

Re:Where is th right?

[FrankNputer]

The big difference is that before there was recorded music, if you wanted to hear an artist you HAD to go to a show. Now, with home entertainment being the norm, it is quite possible to consume the work of hundreds of artists without leaving home.

This may or may not be a good thing, but the people in question still have to make a living, or there would be nothing to consume.

Frankly, I'm tired of people insisting that artists have no right to make a living. Aside from the obscene amounts of money made by very few, the vast majority of musicians spend an enormous amount of time and their OWN money pursuing the creation of music. Denying them the right to make some back is ridiculous - if your job stopped paying you today, would you go back tomorrow?

Re:Where is th right?

[J'raxis]

How do I consume recorded music? I play the CD. I listen to it. I play it again. Repeat ad nauseam. Nothing has been consumed. One can consume a concert event (once one has listened to it, its over, and it takes work to create another concert), and therefore it has economic value as a finite resource. Additionally, the basic supply-and-demand principle applies to a concert (my going to it deprived someone else), a principle that does not apply to infinitely-reproduceable and infinitely-reusable recorded music.

Additionally, your logic in the last paragraph is ridiculous. An artist expecting to get paid for their recorded music is akin to me expecting to get paid by my employer well after I quit, simply because theyre still using a piece of software I coded for them. The initial production of the work is worth something, economically speaking, and thats what I got paid for. Each subsequent use or copy is not.

Re:Where is th right?

[elflord]

a principle that does not apply to infinitely-reproduceable and infinitely-reusable recorded music.

You make the classic conceptual error all the napster types make, in confusing the recording with the music itself. I suppose this is to be expected from a crowd that by and large don't value creativity.

Of course the recording itself is infinitely reproducible, but the music is not. It takes time and effort to write, produce and record another piece of music.

The initial production of the work is worth something, economically speaking, and that's what I got paid for. Each subsequent use or copy is not.

They are getting paid for the original work. The amount they get paid depends on the number of copies sold, because this is what is used to determine the economic value of that work.

Re:Where is th right?

[awol]

"They are getting paid for the original work. The amount they get paid depends on the number of copies sold, because this is what is used to determine the economic value of that work."

NO. And there is the classic conceptual error all the IP apologists use. There is no _property_ in the original work, it cannot be bought or sold. The number of copies sold is irrelevant because they have no economic value. If a work is commissioned, then the original work is paid for. Otherwise the creation of the work is speculation by the artiste, speculation that they can perform it in concert and get paid, or gain such repute from the work's excellence that it will lead to additional commissions or even patronage (grateful dead style) when they ask for funding for their next project from the consumer.

Economic value is created by scarcity or legal fiction, not demand (unless one follows Marx's labour theory of value, but that is a whole other story). In the case of recorded music there is not technical requirement for scarcity and so it is purely the result of legal fiction. There needs to be a good public policy reason for a legal fiction (the licensing of taxicabs is an example of a legal fiction that has an, at least arguable, public policy consideration) the lining of the pockets of "copyright holders" is not one. And I know you will respond with the public policy considerations of "incentive to innovete" etc. But I (and many others) would argue that these incentives exist regardless. And even if one was not willing to concede that issue, property is _just_ one way of doing in a state sponsored way. State funded grants, would work equally well (and probably more fairly) since noone would become a super rich of such a program and so the net social utility would be higher. But the problem I have is that the IP apologist _presupposes_ that it (intellectual property) exists, that it is some kind of natural right. Well it ain't so think outside the paradigm in which you live and a world without IP might even look like a good thing.

Re:Where is th right?

[elflord]

NO. And there is the classic conceptual error all the IP apologists use. There is no _property_ in the original work, it cannot be bought or sold.

I didn't say there was "property" in the original work, I said there was economic value in the work. Most work has economic value, and most work is not "property".

The number of copies sold is irrelevant because they have no economic value.

The copies themselves have no economic value, but the sales numbers can be used to appraise the economic value of the work.

If a work is commissioned, then the original work is paid for. Otherwise the creation of the work is speculation by the artiste, speculation that they can perform it in concert and get paid,

Clearly, this is not true. The copyright system rewards artists for their work, by allowing a distributed, deferred payment system as financial incentive for their creative efforts.

Economic value is created by scarcity or legal fiction, not demand

This is not true. The work itself is clearly of economic value, because if it was not, then noone would be willing to pay money for the right to enjoy it. There is most definitely demand for it. The problem is that requiring buyers commission the work, or pay/commit to pay before the work is released, is an obstruction to purchasing it (because it increases the level of risk for the customer)

here is not technical requirement for scarcity and so it is purely the result of legal fiction.

There's simply a rule saying "no freeloaders". That seems to bug the hell out of the napster freeloaders, but that's the way it is.

Re:Where is th right?

[FrankNputer]

There is no _property_ in the original work, it cannot be bought or sold. The number of copies sold is irrelevant because they have no economic value. If a work is commissioned, then the original work is paid for. Otherwise the creation of the work is speculation by the artiste, speculation that they can perform it in concert and get paid, or gain such repute from the work's excellence that it will lead to additional commissions or even patronage (grateful dead style) when they ask for funding for their next project from the consumer.

Wrong, wrong, wrong! If the work has no "economic value", then how can it be "paid for" by commision? It could only be funded, NOT paid for.

And of course the "copies" of the work have value - that's what you paid for! A copy of the recording of the work! You did NOT "pay for" the work itself with your $15 for the CD. But you can bet that the artist DID pay - $1000s for studio time, $1000s for pressing, more $ for artwork for the booklet, shipping costs, covering defective returns...and this goes for little local bands who work regular jobs & save their $$ just to put out a CD, as well as those who get their money from record labels (who are only fronting it to them anyway, & they make sure that they get their advance money back FIRST, before giving a nickel to their artist).

As for patronage, it would be a sorry world indeed if artists had to rely only on patronage - then only rich people would commision works, & you would have to listen to what they were willing to pay for. Are you ready to let, say, Bill Gates decide what you can buy at Tower Records this month? Just ask any member of a symphony orchestra how well relying on the patronage model works.
Better yet - ask any working musician where their money comes from. It's not from touring - it's from MERCHANDISING. Selling stuff at the gig is what makes it profitable, not playing for chump change while some bar owner uses your hard work to sell drinks.

Celine Dion?

[Anonymous Coward]

Good ridance to the beech!

Sad times..

[benmhall]

My girlfriend and I own approximately 400 CDs between the two of us. We have ripped them all, and we only ever listen to our MP3 collection. Subscribing to the excellent EMusic service has also greatly expanded our collection.

I listen occasionally listen to real audio CDs on the following devices:

• One of our PCs (all running Linux..)
• My Rio Volt
• Our Apex DVD player

This means that pretty soon I won't be able to listen to audio CDs on my own players even if I want to.

I have never used Napster (or similar services) as I think it's morally wrong and illegal. However, if I can't go out, buy an audio CD, rip it and listen to it then I consider myself forced into using one of these means to acquire the music I want.

I have absolutely no qualms with paying $20 for a CD. I always get my money out of it, provided the disc doesn't suck. Frankly, at the rate we buy CDs I don't even mind occasionally paying for a dud. I will, however, refuse to buy something I can't use.

End of story.

As has been reported ad nauseum, this does absolutely nothing to curb illegal copying of these songs. All it does is anger good customers. If I, a paying, legal customer, am going to be treated like a criminal, I may as well act the part.

So, here's my ultimatum to the recording industry: Stop this ridiculous behaviour or I will cease to be a customer. As soon as I buy a CD that I actually want (sorry Celine) and can no longer rip and listen to in MP3 form I will cease buying CDs at all and will start making use of one of these napster/kazaa/limewire type services. I don't want to do this. I still think it's illegal, I still think it's wrong, but I think that punishing all customers for the sake of a few, who will pirate anyway, is worse, not to mention a dangerous precedent. I won't stand for it.

If the record industry won't play fair neither will I. I know I'm only one person, I realize that the recording industry probably doesn't care about me, but I buy about 30 CDs a year. That's $600 they lose from me. Pretty insignificant in the big scheme, but it's all I can do. I will continue to listen to the music I want in the form I want.

Re:Sad times..

[GregFoster]

> That's $600 they lose from me. Pretty insignificant in the big scheme, but it's all I can do.

Except that others will do the same thing. It will add up if enough people cut back and/or stop spending money on music. Like you, I used to buy a lot of new CDs (dozens) over the course of a year. No more. I will maybe buy 1-2 new CDs a year. I either do without the music, or buy it used.

Re:Sad times..

[David Jao]

Not only am I with you, I'm already there.

I listen to music on my PCs (all Linux), Pioneer DVD player, and my Rio Volt. All of these play mp3s, and almost everything I listen to now is in mp3 form.

I think $20 for a (real) CD is good deal, but I decided several years ago to stop financing the RIAA attacks on our free society. As a result, I have not bought a North-American-made CD since 1997. All of the thousands of dollars I've spent on CDs since then has been on discs made outside this continent (mostly east asian music; my first language is Chinese).

So far I have resisted the temptation to lift music wholesale from the P2P services, but I can see where you're coming from there, and I might even have considered it if the types of music that I've grown to like were easier to find on them.

Anyway, I think you should go for it, and don't worry about the smallness of your voice, because it's still greater than the zero that most people give, and that's what counts.

Re:Sad times..

[tshak]

Disclaimer: I _HAVE_ produced a short-run CD, I _DO_ know what it takes (money, energy, talent) to produce a CD.

I have absolutely no qualms with paying $20 for a CD.

Remember when full albums where $8.99? Especially with many CD's, where only 2-3 songs are decent, I generally do not want to spend any more then $10-$11 on a CD. The last CD I bought was $14 (Chemical Brothers), and as good as it is, it wasn't worth $14. Consider this, a good DVD is $15-$20. A movie (which I also have had amateur experience with) takes a LOT more resources to develop, yet you get a 2hr movie (plus 30-45min of extras usually) for the same price OR LESS then a 60minute CD.

CD's are way too expensive.

Thank Sony to not let me play "any" CD ...

[freaker_TuC]

Thank you Sony, I buy every CD that comes out in Europe and thank you Sony, really thank you, so I do not have to listen to Celine Dion ... Thank you!

(not).

It does play on Linux though :o)

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't have the Celine Dion CD, but the same
warning is also on the new Sony Local Music CD
'Leaving' by ML (released in the Netherlands,
great music BTW).
So I dropped it in the DVD-ROM player of my PC
and it played perfectly using the native KDE 2
CD player. It does see two additional tracks
at the end that it isn't supposed to see, but
if you just skip those, you're fine and you can
even mount the CD and copy the songs as .wav
files, just as usual.
I wonder why Sony even bothers coming up with
half-assed copy protection like this...

Re:It does play on Linux though :o)

[zardie]

Not only this, but each and every MP3 ripping group generally has a Linux person in it. The said Linux person is probably familiar with the environment and its tools to produce wave files.

These big rips find themselves onto audiogalaxy and other P2P sharing networks pretty damn fast.

THe end result is me needing to aquire the album in MP3 because I simply don't have means of playing it normally (i.e. I carry two laptops and an MD around - I don't have anything that plays CDs other than the DVD player in the HT setup which I don't carry with me on the go).

What next ?

[cheekymonkey_68]

As it stands at the moment any copy protected cd can be copied, its just a question of how to copy them. (Ie. Cd out to cd in will always work, unless sound cards get DRM or some such)

I bet if they could , they (the RIAA) would fund research for a new form of human hearing with built in DRM, and then patent it.

Before you know it every peice of electronics would require this new 'improved' hearing to listen to anything be it on TV, CD etc.

It sounds like Sci-Fi but as we all know truth can be stranger than fiction, I bet there morals are low enough to try something like that.....

from the RIAA website...

[chickerino]

"The RIAA confiscated 87 illegal CD-Rs during the first half of 1997"

good work guys. and they probably had a dedicated anti-piracy team to do this!

Sony Music vs. Sony Electronics

[zardie]

What people don't seem to realise is that each company (Sony Music and Sony Electronics) are TWO seperate entities. This is how things like this happen.

Mind you, I'm sure Sony Electronics are not thrilled at all about this. Not only would this not work in any of their VAIO systems, but it won't work with their "new-age" network enabled devices such as NetMD (they're pushing that high-speed transfer using a PC thing *very hard*) or their network/memory stick walkman.

I have an MD. I use PCs to listen to music. I've encoded my CDs because it's hellishly more convenient to play songs (and mix/match song mixes) on my PC as it is to switch CDs all the time. And it protects the CDs etc.

Remember the whole LP issue? Everybody recorded LPs onto tape. Did the RIAA complain? No.

Playing CD on MAC

[Anonymous Coward]

I have the K's choice 'Live' CD which also has this copy protection on it. And as with Celine's CD it won't play on PC's or MAC's with OS 8 and above.

However, I have 2 Power Mac 7500/100 with OS 7 and I can get them both to play the CD's using the following steps

1. Insert the CD

2. Try and run the CD

3. You should get a message saying the CD isn't initialised.

4. Holding the CD drive in to stop it ejecting ,tell it to try and initialise the CD. You may get asked to do this twice.

5. An icon should now appear on your desktop. Double click on it and the cd player should start.

6. Please note I can only get this to happen on the machines with OS 7 on. I have one with OS 8 and this trick will not work. The specs of the machines are all the same

Hopefully this is going to be of use to someone.

Aibo, Vaio, Hello Kitty and Those Wacky Japanese

[BigBlockMopar]

Aibo, go fetch the vaio!
Let go! Bad dog! BAD DOG!

Stupid product and a computer with a stupid name.

You know, I just don't get it. Why would you want a synthetic dog?

There's something about the Japanese culture that I just don't get. Hello Kitty is a perfect example. Why do they like Hello Kitty?

How did they get the bow to stick to Hello Kitty's ear? I tried that on my own cat, but the taper of the ear as it reached the extremity wasn't conducive to holding a bow, much like pants will be self-adjusting on the rotund. Besides, she flicked away the bow then attempted to sever my femural artery. After I got back from the emergency room, I thought about using the staple gun, but Hello Kitty doesn't appear to have pierced ears. Unfortunately, I was out of hot-melt glue sticks, so I was unable to investigate that possibility.

Why do anime characters always have two teeth? (One on top going all the way around from molar to molar, and one on the bottom going all the way around from molar to molar.) Does Japanese toothpaste include spackle, or am I missing something? Why these one-piece monolithic teeth? The monolith is a fissure-free, gap-free symbol of strength. Which is ironic from a people who have been living in one of the world's most active seismic zone and yet persist in building paper houses with stone roofs.

[sigh] I long for the good old days, when the Japanese were quiet, reserved, and Sony built battle-wagon open-reel VTRs instead of CanCon pop music CDs.

That depends on what country he's from ...

[Hektor_Troy]

In Denmark (where I'm from) it is perfectly legal for me to have digital copies of every single cd-album ever published - even if I don't own a single album.

Why?

Because the copyright law in Denmark allows me to make copies of original works - no matter who owns them. If I wanted to, I could walk down to the local library, borrow a copy of every album they have in store, go home, rip them onto my computer and return the albums - without breaking any laws in Denmark.

I can even take the copies, burn them onto CDs, and play them where ever I want to (just not to loudly, or I'll have to pay KODA/IFPI for playing music in public - stupid law). The only thing I can't do is give the copies to anyone not living with me. I can't give them as gifts, I can lend them to friends etc. But other than that, I can do just about everything I want to.

Now - I can't download music off most P2P networks, because then I'd be copying an illegal copy, and I'm not allowed to do that. But hey - I can just walk down to the local library and check out their CDs ...

How's that for fair use?

Re:That depends on what country he's from ...

[1110110001]

But you can't force CD-producer to allow you to copy it, can you? Here in Austria it's pretty legal too to copy it, but you can't complain if it's not possible due to technical issues. So this protection helps Sony against laws. That doesn't mean it's no bullshit ...

b4n

Re:That depends on what country he's from ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've long regarded Denmark as a civilized country. In the USA, we are, sometimes, and in some places...

Enby in Waltham

Re:That depends on what country he's from ...

[^Case^]

I can even take the copies, burn them onto CDs

Wrong! You're not allowed to make copies of copies according to Danish law. You're allowed to make copies of original works only.

Re:That depends on what country he's from ...

[FeeDBaCK]

Oh yes... Denmark. Isn't that where Hamlet is from? He was such a nice boy.

Re:That depends on what country he's from ...

[Hektor_Troy]

Having spent a considerable amount of time reading the danish copyright law, alot more time than I'd like to admit, I'm quite sure that I'm allowed to do so - allow me to quote (and translate) the apropriate paragraph of the law:

URL: http://www.kum.dk/dk/con-37_STD_2298.htm

12. Af et offentliggjort værk må enhver fremstille eller lade fremstille enkelte eksemplarer til sin private brug. Sådanne eksemplarer må ikke udnyttes på anden måde.
Stk. 2. Bestemmelsen i stk. 1 giver ikke ret til at
[...]
3) fremstille eksemplarer af edb-programmer i digitaliseret form,
4) fremstille eksemplarer i digital form af databaser, når eksemplarfremstillingen sker på grundlag af en gengivelse af databasen i digital form, eller
5) fremstille enkelte eksemplarer i digital form af andre værker, medmindre det udelukkende sker til personlig brug for fremstilleren eller dennes husstand.
Stk. 3. Bestemmelsen i stk. 1 giver ikke ret til at benytte fremmed medhjælp ved eksemplarfremstillingen, når der er tale om

1) musikværker,
2) filmværker,
[...]
Stk. 4. Bestemmelsen i stk. 1 giver ikke brugeren ret til ved eksemplarfremstilling af musikværker og filmværker at anvende teknisk udstyr, der er stillet til rådighed for almenheden på biblioteker, i forretningslokaler eller på andre offentligt tilgængelige steder.

English translation (Danish is my maternal language, but I'm pretty good at English, if I must say so myself :-)

12. From a published work anyone may create or have created single examples for their own private usage. Such examples can not be used in any other way.
Part 2. Part 1 does not allow the following:
[...]
3) creation of examples of computer-programmes in digitalized form,
4) creation of examples in digital form of databases, when the creation is based on a replication of the database in digital form, or [note - I have no idea what that's for]
5) creation of single examples in digital form of other works, unless it is exclusively for personal use for the creator or said creators household.
Part 3. Part 1 does not allow the usage of foreign help in creation, when the work is

1) music,
3) movie/film,
[...]
Part 4. Part 1 does not allow the user, when creating a copy of music and movies/films, to use technical equipment made available to the public at libraries, in buisnesses or other public areas.

12 is the interesting paragraph, as it's the only one that deals with personal usage.

Now - in no part of this paragraph (nor any other place in the law) does it state, that I can not make a copy of my own copies. I can NOT let people, that are not part of my household use the copies I make, for any reason. If I let my friend make a copy of my copy, I'm breaking the law, but if I make a copy of an original album, that I borrowed at the library, I can make a gazillion copies of my copy, as long as I don't let people outside my household use the copy.

Like I said - I've read, reread and read the danish copyright law many, many times. I've had a talk (along with a delegation from StopCopyDAN, for which I was the spokesperson) with the (now former) Danish Minister of Culture in the summer of 2001 (August 16, 14:00 to be precise, although that meeting was postponed aprox 30 mins) about the subject of levies on blank medias in Denmark. I've had a meeting with the Danish Parliments Committie of Culture two weeks later (that was August 29, at 9:30 if my memory serves me corret) about the same subject, as I discussed with the Minister of Culture. At the latter meeting the delegation I was heading (also from StopCopyDAN) handed over almost 30,000 signatures protesting the levies.

Now, I'm am not a lawyer, but unless the Minister of Culture and her civil servants are completely off track with regards to copyright law in Denmark, along with the entire Comitie of Culture, then I CAN infact make copies of my own copies (provided that my first copy was obtained lawfully).

Put that in your hat and smoke it.

Next time you go trolling, try to back your claims up with facts :-)

You were owned by
Martin Schou

Return the CD? No, Return the MD!!!

[Cletus the yokel]

Since Sony is on the one hand selling a portable music device and on the other hand denying you the ability to copy music to it, why not demand a refund? Same goes for Sony CD burners and even VAIO owners. If people started showing up demanding $1500+ refunds for their laptops I'd bet Sony would sit up and take notice.

Celine Dion is evil

[primus_sucks]

First that terrible Titanic song, then those evil animal torturing bastards at Procter & Gamble sponsoring her tour, now this. I definately won't be going to see Titanic II.

I can stand up to massive amounts of Celine Dion

[Hektor_Troy]

Well ... her music anyway, 'cause to call Celine Dion "massive" would be like calling Calista Flockheart "healthy slim" ...

Anyway back to my point. I can stand up to massive amounts of Celine Dions music; I can do this for two reasons:
1) By concentrating, I can shut out almost any specific source of noise/sound
2) By using my aforementioned super power of concentration, I am also able to bring up mental images of my four favorite women (no, Celine isn't one of them) going at it in a, shall we say, fashion that leaves nothing to the imagination - though that is actually what is going on. I've tried sneaking Selma Hyak (#5 on my list) in as well, but then it goes totally screwy - I think there's a kernel panic in there somewhere ...

3) Last but not least, I actually like some of her music :-)

problem solved...

[Anonymous Coward]

Celine_Dion-A_New_Day_Has_Come-2002-BMI

looks like someone figured out a way to rip it :)

Lets warm up thoose debuggers....

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not much for Celine, but I'm on my way to buy the disc now, let's see what we might find when disecting it.. Any one else interested in making this run on Linux, drop me a note thefreak@users.sourceforge.net

MOD PARENT UP!

[Cletus the yokel]

This has as much to do with Sony sucking consumers towards "premium" subsciption services as it does copy protection. "Want to play this CD on your computer? Sure, that'll be $5.00 a month!" can't be far away. And I'm SURE Phillips will have something to say about that!

A real cheap shot

[Tokerat]

...Steve Jobs won't be able to get the CD either way.

I'm fuckin' awful. ;-)

Fight back.

[bigfrigginfrogman]

The easiest way to fight something like this a E-mail the artist herself. Fansites, web chats, her web site. E-mail her, with honest concerns about consumer abuse being done using her work. If enough people rise this question to her, she will rise the question to sony. Or better yet, she'll raise it to the media.

96 dB assumes flat dither noise curve

[yerricde]

20*log(2^16) = 96.3 dB

This calculation for the noise floor assumes a flat dither noise curve. If the dither noise is concentrated up in high-frequency land, we may just have 120 dB of dynamic range where it counts, such as around 3000 Hz. That's why I suggested looking up noise shaping.

Re:96 dB assumes flat dither noise curve

[~roman]

we may just have 120 dB of dynamic range where it counts

This is POST-PROCESSING! and has hothing to do with quality of info included on the disk. It is nothing else than little bit more sophisticated filtering (such as used to be Philips DNL system) and actualy all the time they distorts your original data with some assumptions!!! Do you have a mobile phone which cuts out the background noise in the car includind some your words? those are the same - only spectraly adjusted.
96 is the limit , rest is "the equaliser" of your stereo. This is like adding colors to the old B/W film: you are painting grass with green and sky blue because you thing it should be so, but you realy do not know... what if there was variation because dawn or so? or maybe it was a fake red paper grass in the studio - which for B/W was ok?

You are right about the ear limits - so it does not make sense to "transfer more" than you can hear, but repeat after me: on the disk is maximum 96 , rest is your dream and knobs of your player, forget about noise shapping and other buzzwords.

R.

Re:96 dB assumes flat dither noise curve

[Anonymous Coward]

"This is POST-PROCESSING! and has hothing to do with quality of info included on the disk"

Uh... it's preprocessing, and it does affect what's on the disc.

Here's a link: http://www.glowingcoast.co.uk/audio/theory/dither/

What about PS2's?

[Ashyukun]

The amusing thing to know would be- what does this CD do to one of Sony's own products, the PS2? Will it make it crash, or did they 'accidentally' build/program it so that it would not cause problems for their own hardware? This gets even more interesting when you throw Linux-on-PS2 into the equation... Now that would be an amusing lawsuit- M$ suing Sony for one of their CDs breaking X-Boxes....

Computers vs. components for playing CD's

[heroine]

Is anyone complaining about playing CD's in stereo components? Not having audio CD support in PC's sucks for some users but not having audio CD support in stereo components would have sucked for a lot more users.

We need to fix this

[anser]

Regardless of the merits of the copy protection schemes used, one change that MUST be made by software and hardware manufacturers is to "survive" the insertion of a copy-protected CD in a more robust way. Firmware and persistent OS settings should not be affected, and crashes should be prevented.

The nuisance factor of this "behavior on insertion" problem is currently minimized because so few albums have copy protection schemes. Before very long, most or all major label releases will carry some kind of copy protection. If the industry doesn't harden its drivers and OS's, chaos will result.

By the way, when CD copy protection is the norm, clever people with EAC and similar programs will still be able to rip, but Joe Casual User with his "Automatically rip as you play" pre-installed kiddy software won't, which is probably what the RIAA is really aiming for.

Gotta wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

how many people will buy it purely to crack the protection and release the songs on it as mp3s.

Forget whether it will be cracked. I just wanna know how long it will take. 3 days, 7 days?

Crashing Systems

[Anonymous Coward]

My compadres at work and I managed to crash a system with music as well. It was a 20GB snap server that we just could not stop filling with MP3s despite the low disk warnings, however I assure you that NO Celine was involved in this case.

The warning doesn't say it will CRASH your PC

[StarmanTHX]

The disclaimer says that the CD won't work on it. To most people, this simply means that it won't work and get ejected. It DOESN'T say that it will CRASH your computer. I smell a lawsuit. Mike

Re:The warning doesn't say it will CRASH your PC

[Gottjager]

I was expecting to read the same thing, but if you look down near the bottom:

Sony denied these allegations. "The CD will probably cause a system to crash, but it will not alter anything," the spokeswoman said. "And it won't eject properly, but that's just because the computer has crashed."

So, if one were to assume the quote is really from a Sony rep. then there may be something to this (or the rep. was completely computer illiterate and made a huge PR blunder).

Not in Canada!

[xtal]

That's just being dishonest.

If he's Canadian, he's paid for it (assuming it's CDs he copied, onto cds). If he's really honest, he can just go see the band live, where they will see a penny for their toils.

I hate to say this, but I'm going to keep banging this point into people's heads. Others should do this, too. Yes, I know it doesn't really apply to your post. In Canada, it is perfectly legal for me to possess copied works, because the government decided that they would worry about paying the artist. How about they do that isn't my problem, but for the time being, I can copy music without guilt - because I've paid a tax^h^h^hlevy on the CDs. Nothing like turning music into a public good to solve this peer to peer problem, eh. Nevermind how stupid and unworkable that is to independant artists. Or once the public is made aware of this abolution in droves, or the big kicker: If someone defends a peer-to-peer music sharing program under this law in court. That would make napster LEGAL in Canada. Oh, baby. The RIAA would riot.

This of course doesn't apply in the land of the DMCA, not to worry, we're holding (held) tribunals on what we're going to do to hop in line like good little empire citizens, too.

Re:Not in Canada!

[Anonymous Coward]

And if he s french, he paid a special fee on the blank CDs when he bought them that will go directly to the big evil bizness corporations.
But it still is illegal ...

Re:Not in Canada!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is unfortunately incorrect.

The levy (not a tax, the government doesn't get to keep any of the money) Canadians pay on blank CDs and cassettes does indeed go to the artists (or at least a group claiming to represent them), but it's still not legal to violate copyright.

The levy does help assuage guilt over copyright violations however. And if the levy is increased as much as the artists' want, I'll feel morally obligated to copy music.

Curiousities

[dwaggie]

How do they determine the differences between a computer and a CD player? Is there some sort of drive information that is different, or is it simply some kind of feedback that they send that crashes the machine?

For instance, if it checks for something about reading text from the CD, that would crash quite a few Car Audio systems that pick up on CD titles. If it only sends feedback that would crash only a PC, then it's not really copy protection -- especially with products that create burned 'compilation' CDs. Do these get around the protection? If they do, then what's to stop someone from simply making a burned copy and then ripping from that?

Really, these guys just need to get a grip on the fact that people will always have digital music, one way or the other. I can just as easily hook a CD-ROM drive into the line-in of my sound card and pull through that as I can through the SPDIF cable.

Stop .. the rock.. can't stop the rock you can't. . . ;)

MTV Cribs

[Anonymous Coward]

It all comes down to how much money can they make. If they feel that by copy protecting an artists CD to force people to buy it, then of course people will buy it. They simply want to make sure they don't lose out on opportunities. How else can they pay for those multi-million dollar estates as seen on mtv cribs. I mean can you imagine the electricity bill on that puppy?!?! Of course I would also ask for the copy protection on my cd, man I got to heat my olympic size pool.... but in Celine's case she needs some cash to support Rene at the tables in Vegas, and let us not forget the korean girls in the elevators....

Just my 0.02$CAD or $0.01US

Cold Hearted Business View

[johnos]

From the business point of view, this is as stupid a move as a consumer oriented company could make. Anyone with an MBA and a brain in their head would come to the same conclusion.

The potential gain (avoid lost sales) is so far below the potential loss (lawsuits, internal Sony politics, losses to other Sony divisions, lost sales to pissed off consumers, lost sales due to geeks cracking the cd as a point of honor, angry artists, inter-territory grey marketing, spread of hardware workarounds, etc.) that nobody in their right mind would implement such a scheme. Which is why most companies aren't rushing to try out the technology. There is no business incentive to be a pioneer.

Also, from a strategic business point of view, when a consumer company treats its customers as criminals, then there is something far more basic than technology at work. This is the classic case of a technology that allows the expression of a nacient desire. BUT IT IS NOT A TECHNOLOGICAL PROBLEM! Its the nacient desire that is the issue. So there can be no technological solution. They do actually teach this stuff in business schools. Sony is now about to re-teach the lesson to a generation of music executives. Remember to not get too pissed off and enjoy the fun.

Re:Cold Hearted Business View

[Vulture_]

Anyone with an MBA and a brain in their head would come to the same conclusion.

Since when did MBAs have brains in their heads?

Seriously, though, I sincerely doubt that this decision was made by anyone other than some ignorant executive making a futile and self-destructive attempt to increase personal dick^Wwallet size. I'd actually have liked to have been a fly on the wall in Sony Music marketing when they got wind of this idea...

I'm with you.

[Uttles]

While I don't agree about the legality of Napster-like schemes, I do agree that the minute I buy a CD that is non functional, or heaven forbid they actually make one "pay per play," I will stop buying CD's for good. This latest trend of controlling what people can do with the music they buy is ridiculous, and it's going to piss more people off than the amount of revenue it will create. The thing that all of these idiots in the recording industry don't realize is that sharing music in mp3 format, or just being able to convert your purchased cd's to mp3, has only served as a catalyst for music purchases. These new policies and "encryption" (I would say hacking) schemes are only going to drive customers away.

Finally, the Recording Industry helps us out!

[jocknerd]

By having Celine Dion's cd not play on computers, the RIAA has done us a favor!!!

Re:Finally, the Recording Industry helps us out!

[Trogre]

Wait until it happens to an artist you enjoy listening to. Who will be laughing then?

Somebody should print up better warning stickers

[Fastolfe]

Somebody should go print up a bunch of stickers that informs users more completely about the wrongs of this CD. Something like:

"Warning: This music disc is not a real 'CD' (note the lack of a CD logo) and WILL NOT PLAY on many players. Purchase at your own risk."

Then go into your local music stores and slap them on every one of these CD's you can find. :)

This also causes statistics to become tainted

[Fastolfe]

In the past, the music industry has been able to say, "Look, we have millions of downloads going on here where people are downloaded illegal pirated versions of our music!" Now that they're making it impossible for us to legally purchase music and listen to it on computing devices and players, we have to go download it instead. The percentage of those downloads that are for legally purchased music will go up. They can no longer say that most (if not all) of those downloads are for music the downloader shouldn't have.

Is it illegal to "redistribute" a copyrighted work to somebody that already has a license to it?

Piracy is being used for ulterior purposes

[Jeppe Salvesen]

Piracy is giving the music business an excuse to do evil, wicked things to our rights. By emphasizing abuse, they are making the argument that they are doing this in order to protect themselves. They show no willingness to look for alternatives, and those they do attempt to launch seem toothless and are quite expensive in comparison to the distribution costs.

Really. The record store, transportation and physical media costs are eliminated. Granted, there is an introduced per-transaction cost for paying for the goods (you usually have the cash-option), but their prices are still too expensive.

Instead of using the new medium, they are fighting it. Look at what the MPAA did concerning the VCRs. They fought it. All the way. It was a dark day for Hollywood, or something like that. Whatever. Turns out, we spend more money on buying dvd's and vhs's than we spend in the box office.

Rather than giving us a good, modestly priced alternative to piracy, they are shooting them selves in the foot thinking they are giving us the finger.

In fact, you could (weakly) argue that the music industry is behaving like Bush and Sharon. By making impossible yet seemingly reasonable demands and making sure they aren't met, they get out on top. "You can't pirat a CD" while overpricing the product. "You must crack down on the terrorists amid you" while bombing their police station. "Axis of evil", four relatively unrelated nations singled out and bunched together. Think they will behave now that they know they'll be taken out anyhow?

I'm drifting off what I meant to say.

By using the piracy argument, they are trying to shift public opinion towards schemes like Shakira and Celine Dion. They are even putting them on high-profile disks, hoping that we will buy them, and that cognitive dissonance will stop us from ranting. It is a dumb, dumb bet. They have lost their power, but don't realize it. I just feel sorry for the artists that are bound to suffer from this unneeded shift towards freeloading.

By the way - the best way to support an artist you like is to go to their concert. That is often more profitable for the artist than if you buy their cd. Also, I buy albums I find myself listening to. Hope Sandoval & Warm Inventions. Grant Lee Phillips. Fantomas. Tomahawk. Joe Henry. I also owe a CD or two to Ben Folds Five, Bjork, Air and a couple more.

quite the crime spree

[celfie]

first her husband goes around raping women and now she is crashing computers - is this the new face of organized crime?

not just new bands

[hawk]

at $15, I just plain don't buy them. At all. THe last ones I bought were ins something like '98--and I bought those used.

OTOH, at $8-$10, I'd probably have a $50-$100/month habit.

hawk, who if pressed, would admit that there's really not much western music to buy these days, and likely won't be til this stupid "New Country" finally blows over . . .

Oh, and I've bought some ofthe 10-disk sets of classical and one or two of western for about $4/cd . . .

Re:not just new bands

[Boronx]

New Country is soft rock with a twangy guitar or a texas accent.

CMT recently had a tribute to Waylon Jennings, and played him up as an outlaw hero. Nashville wouldn't touch Waylon with a ten foot pole when he was alive.

Re:not just new bands

[hawk]

you're being far to kind. More like bubble-gum pop with a vaguely country melody or a misused steel guitar. . . .

And think of all the realy good music we would have missed if waylon & co. hadn't done the outlaw recordings in LA . . .

Also, waylon was one of the ones who was incensed about patrons not getting their service charges refunded by ticket agencies for cancelled concderts (he was in the hospital with Laryngitus or some such), and I believe also for the missing tracks on CD's of albums (there's a biggie missin from his greatest hits [ladies love outlaws? it's not in front of me]).

hawk, who knows of no album better than side 1 of "I've always been crazy" (which he owns), and would actually pay $20 for a cd of that or of Bobby Bare's "The Winner" album

huh?

[hawk]

What an ignorant thing to claim.

The *reasons* for our free market and captialism are *fundamentally* moral.

Capitalism means that you are entitled to the proceeds of assets you own, whether your own labor or land.

Free markets mean that you can buy, sell, or not with assets you control.

The switch from the older feudalism was largely a moral respones to the waste of assets and the intrusions on freedom .

hawk

Re:huh?

[cc_pirate]

Yes, but the results of unfettered capitalism (i.e. Corporations) are AMORAL.

Or more correctly UNIMORAL. They have only one guiding principle: "Maximize shareholder value". Literally ANYTHING that isn't illegal and furthers this aim corporations will do.

Thus the type of capitalism that much of the world exercises is AMORAL or UNIMORAL, and since most of the rest of us are a BIT deeper than that, we (quite rightly) think of the results of capitalism as being effectively IMMORAL.

Personally, I don't trust a corporation any farther than I can throw it.

Re:huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. The only fundamentally moral economic system is communism as practiced in the Acts of the Apostles.

Re:huh?

[Malcontent]

Well I don't know where you get your definition of morality from. I think you are making it up as you go along. You are simply justifying what you do every day by declaring it a "moral" act.

I can think of no religion, no shaman, no spiritualist anywhere in the world who has said that pursuit of money, greed, buying and selling things are worthwhile goals or means of human moral growth. Not aristotle, not jesus, not budha, not moses, not mohammed. None of them said the path to morality and spiritual growth is through commerce.

OK I just thought of someone. It was Anton Levey the founder of modern day satanism. The goals of capitalism are exactly aligned with the goals of satanism and diametrically opposed to the goals of christianity, budhism, islam, and judaism.

Like I said you are just making it up as go along because it makes you feel better. Go ahead and declare yourself moral becasue you like to buy shiny new things it's better for the economy.

Re:huh?

[hawk]

Congratualations, you have not only misrepresented capitalism, but *everything* I said.

I described what capitalism and ree markets are. THere is nothing about "pursuit of money or greed" in it. It is simply a matter of being allowed to control and benefit from your own things--as opposed to someone *else* controlling and benefitting from them.

Nor did I in *any* way suggest that this was my morality, nor my definition. While I'm far older than the typical slashdot reader, I am *not* over 200 years old--and the Protestant work ethic *is* far older than that. You can agree with or dispute that ethic, but it is the morality behind free markets.

If you try to put anything more into the "goals of capitalism" it's *you* who is making things up as you go along. Yes, some people use the freedom to make staggering amounts of money and hurt other people--that happens with Free Will.

Plain and simply, the alternative to free market capitalism is either to restrict what people are allowed to do with their own labor and other assets, or to assign the proceeds of the labor and other assets elsewhere. You're far more likely to get the results you want by taxing a free market and spending the proceeds on your goals, as every attempt other than first century Christianity failed (and even that one didn't scale well).

I'm plain and simply a couple of hundred years to make this up, though I'd love to take credit for it. :)

hawk

Re:huh?

[Malcontent]

Apparently you are confused about morality. Ethics and mores are secular concepts. Morality and morals are religious concepts. Maybe you can make an argument that capitalism is ethical (I know I can make an argument that it's not) but you can not make an argument that it's moral. For it to be moral there needs to be some religious underpinning behind accumulation of wealth. All religions urge their followers to live a life of simplicity, charity, and service to mankind which looks awful lot like socialism or communism rather then capitalism. Jesus was especially critical of wealth and the accumulation of wealth, Budha preached poverty, mohammed didn't seem to mind pursit of wealth as much but he emphesized charity and service quite a bit. As I stated the only religion that encourages accumulation of wealth and greed is satanism.

As for your other arguments they apply to mores and not morals. The idea of religion is NOT to promote freedom. Religion says that your must put aside your freedom and your base desires and bend to God's will. Satanists say "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" while Christianity implies "do what God wilt shall be whole of the law". The goal of a christian is to do gods will, not their own. Often times that requires subjugating your freedom to a higher power. As a jew or a moslem you may desire to eat a ham sandwich. In a free world you can eat ham sandwitches but if you believe in god then you have to subjugate your desire to eat a ham sandwich and give up that freedom.

A lot of this has to with the abysmal state of the english language. People frequently confuse liberty (or sufferage) with freedom. Freedom is an abstract concept while liberty is a political one. To a religious person freedom is a futile and somewhat evil pursuit. While liberty may be a worthwhile one if it coinsides with God's will. God's will on earth and all that.

BTW are you seriously saying that the "pursuit of money and greed" are not the main driving engine of capitalism or that they have nothing to do with capitalism. I don't know where you get your definition of capitalism but from where I stand capitalism has a lot to do with capital. Maybe there is some strain of capitalism that does not contain greed, gluttony, envy, avarice, covetousness, pride etc as it's driving force but I have never seen it. Can you point me at a capitalistic state that does not encourage it's people to practice the seven deadly sins?

Face it capitalism is good only insofar as greed is good. I know many people make the argument that greed is good but I suspect they do this to try and justify their own greed. It certainly does not come from any religion (except satanism as I said).

Jews

[Anonymous Coward]

Nuff Said.

Re:Jews

[renakuzar]

you are not only a coward but a racist. Hell has plenty of openings for people with that outlook.

Re:Jews

[Anonymous Coward]

AYAK?

Wait a minute . . .

[Captoo]

My wife bought this CD and it plays just fine on our computer. Are there different versions of the CD with different levels of copy protection?

Re:The users were warned! (NOT)

[javatips]

The user has been warned that the CD will no play in a PC or a Mac.

However, nothing is said about reading the content of the disk in a PC or a Mac.

I know it's just a word game. But that's what lawyer do!

and this is supposed to stop you from doing what?

[Adler]

its about 10 min after i read this and I just finished downloading the whole album in .mp3

Which once again proves my theory, anyhting they do, can be broken, piss off Sony and take your horse face giraffe, Celine Dion with you!

How did we go from "enhanced CDs a few years ago that they WANTED you to put in your computer, to this crap? and hell yes it will be deleted, i just wanted to prove the point.

Lame Music

[Anonymous Coward]

Whos gonna buy a Celine Dion CD anyway????

Re: Highest efficiency?

[fallen1]

From the above "This ensures the highest efficiency currently available." Is this statement complete bullshit or what? If it assured the highest efficiency I'd be able to play it in ANY cd/dvd drive without fear - now THAT would be efficiency. This key2audio bull is about as efficient as a handgrenade in a crystal shop - doesn't improve your shopping options but makes one hell of a mess of the current situation.

WARNING: Parent contains WinXP Link

[Anonymous Coward]

My God, it's worse than goatse.cx!!!

A New Day Has Come

[gsguillotine]

The CD I bought plays just fine in the PC's I've tried (4 total - two at home, two at work). The CD ripped fine to my music library too.

No warning labels at all on the packaging.

It would have been return immediately though if it had any problems, labels, been unable to rip it, etc....

Plays/Sounds great over my SliMP3....

And, as for *my* music "tastes", to each their own ! 8^P

-Scott.

body slam

[Anonymous Coward]

any computer with a cilene dion cd in it should be body slammed

No it's not.

[Dirk Pitt]

It'd be like Coca Cola making their drinks evaporate

No, this is a poor analogy. Coke doesn't care if you sell or give the six pack you just bought to your friends and neighbors.

A better analogy could be made if Coke made their drinks evaporate the moment they enter a chemistry lab, to prevent rivals from copying the formula for manufacture and sale. Right or wrong, this is something they or any other tangible-goods company would do in a second if it wasn't in the realm of SF.

Don't try to make analogies to explain 'fair-use' intellecutal property laws using traditional goods-based economics. It just doesn't hold up.

Re:No it's not.

[NanoGator]

"A better analogy could be made if Coke made their drinks evaporate the moment they enter a chemistry lab, to prevent rivals from copying the formula for manufacture and sale. Right or wrong, this is something they or any other tangible-goods company would do in a second if it wasn't in the realm of SF."

This is similar to the original analogy that I wrote, but changed it later to reflect how the music industry feels about sharing what you bought with your friends. The flaw in my analogy is that you cannot buy one Coke and have a bunch of friends drink it at the same time.

I think the idea got across, which was the main purpose of it.

"Don't try to make analogies to explain 'fair-use' intellecutal property laws using traditional goods-based economics. It just doesn't hold up."

Did you really need to be rude? Seriously, the analogy wasn't that weak. Only people trying to prove they're intelligent nitpick details and pretend they can't get the point because of them.

Re:No it's not.

[Dirk Pitt]

I think you're missing my point, and it was totally different from yours.

Did you really need to be rude? Seriously, the analogy wasn't that weak.

I wasn't trying to be rude, nor am I trying to prove myself intelligent, but can't you take some valid criticism? Your analogy makes it sound like the recording industry's interest is in blocking fair use situations--the recording industry could care less about fair use situations. I can absolutely buy a CD, put it into another case, and hand it to my neighbor. It won't dissolve. I cannot copy a CD and give it to my neighbor. It should dissolve, I didn't pay for the second copy.

My point was, you're trying to act like it would be ridiculous for coke to try to do something similar to this, and I don't think would be. If there was a similar opportunity for people to 'steal' coke the way they 'steal' music--and don't try to say they don't, read the 15GB of mp3 comment above someplace--then coke would try to put a similarly stringent protection in place. It sucks, it's not fair for those of us who get a lot of good out of 'fair use', and do pay for our music, but it's the way life is and is the fault of the people that abuse it. You can't really compare it to a traditional manufacturing scenario.

Re:No it's not.

[NanoGator]

"Your analogy makes it sound like the recording industry's interest is in blocking fair use situations--the recording industry could care less about fair use situations"

Not exactly. Here's what I said:

"It'd be like Coca Cola making their drinks evaporate moments after they leave the can, that way nobody could pour the coke into a cup and sell it to somebody else."

The RIAA says you have to listen to the CD, you cannot listen to it off of anything but that. THAT was the point of my analogy.

You're right, they don't care about fair use. They're counting what people do with fair use as lost revenue. That's what's wrong.

The funny thing is, I don't think they care about anybody having 15 gigs of MP3s. I think they're concerned about not being able to sell their $18 garbage disks anymore because people want individual songs. They're just using 'piracy' as a way to get the government involved. Frankly, I think the Gov't has no business trying to pass laws to 'save' a business that creates works that are so easy to recreate. All of the copy protection in the world can't stop a garage band from re-singing and recording the song.

If the RIAA has any concern about people paying for what they have downloaded, they'd provide us with a means to pay for what we have. I don't think anybody would buy an $18 CD just because they downloaded a song they heard on the radio.

"I wasn't trying to be rude, nor am I trying to prove myself intelligent, but can't you take some valid criticism?"

I think I read your response in the wrong tone. I apologize. I get a large amount of flack here because I don't hate MS as much as everybody else. Heh.

Re:No it's not.

[Dirk Pitt]

'Kay--got it. I think we're on the same wavelength, basically.

I get a large amount of flack here because I don't hate MS as much as everybody else. Heh

Coming from someone that's using his HP Win2k box at work instead of his Octane piece of @#$!, I know where you're coming from. ;-) I probably do come off as rude here a lot, it's just the ambient around here unfortunately. Anyway, no offense meant. Nice sparring with you.

Re:No it's not.

[NanoGator]

" Anyway, no offense meant. Nice sparring with you."

Same. :) G'day!

Warnings never offer any protection

[Taco Cowboy]

The cigarette boxes have warnings - and in some countries, even grotesque pictures of what will happen if you smoke.

Still, people are suing the cigarette companies.

There are warning labels on ladders, and people fell, and they sue the ladder manufacturers.

There are BLACK ON BRIGHT YELLOW warnings on drain cleaners, and yet, the parents of some moronic kids who eat / drink the strong alkali / acid still sue the manufacturers.

If Sony thinks placing warnings on their "CD" can get them off hooks, think again.

Perhaps because Sony isn't an American company, they don't understand Americans as well as they think.

You don't know the Dept. of (?)Justice

[HiThere]

Being outside the US didn't stop the US govt from harassing a Norwegian teen ager (DECSS).

The DoJ seems to be intent on requiring all countries in the world to accept US laws, whenever that benefits a corporation.

Well, saying that it's whenever it benefits a corporation is the optomistic reading of the scenario. It could be an illegal extension of govt. power via subterfuge that is most interesting to them. In that case the corporation becomes just a convenient stalking horse, and is likely to be sacrificed when convenient. E.g., the blame will largely be focused on the obvious beneficiary, so people will be angry with the corporations (which did benefit, and go along with what they saw of the scheme). So they would make a great scapegoat. Notice how much of the criticism of Enron has slid off the politicians who benefitted?

Re:I HAVE A GOOD PORK SANDWICH STORY YOU FUCKERS

[Anonymous Coward]

The above poster seems to have some missing testicles.

it's illegal

[rafa_n]

that celine dion anti-computer-use CD stuff is illegal if the CD box says "CD-audio", because a CD with auto-executable software that avoids it to be played on a computer doesn't comply with the CD-audio standard, so it can't say "CD-audio" on it.

It has happened before...

[rocnar]

Anne McCaffery's game has been proven to cause hardware damage.

http://www.oldmanmurray.com/longreviews/freedom/de fault.shtml

Not all wars should be fought with weapons

[a1englishman]

This whole music piracy thing reminds me of an
episode of Dr. Who. The Doctor and Romana are
looking for the 7th element to The Key of Time.
The Tardis lands on a planet that has been at war
with another planet for hundreds of years. The mad
ruler of the planet wants the Doctor to build a
force field around the planet to protect it from
the nuclear bombardment of its enemy. The Doctor
points out that the power requirements of such a
shield would increase exponentially. What the Doctor suggests, instead, is a PR campain. And this is the crux of the situation. No matter what the music industry does, their efforts will be thwarted. In the end, no one wins, and everything is laid to waste.

Why does hardware/software let itself be crashed?

[A55M0NKEY]

CDs get scratched, so what is read is not always intentional. It seems that CDROMS/Operating Systems ought to be too robust to allow a corrupt or hacked CD to do damage. I would like to know exactly what Hardware/Software combinations are vulnerable to this kind of attack, and whose fault it is so I can not buy brittle hardware/software.

Nice comment- one point...

[Svartalf]

"It's not so much about profit in itself, but about control, because control guarantees profit."

In their (RIAA, MPAA, etc...) minds, maybe. It doesn't always guarantee profit. At some point the control stifles profit because people end up looking elsewhere for cheaper/better things because the control provides too much hassle, etc. That's about to occur with them here.

I know if I couldn't get a CD to play in my player and I wanted (That's the key word there- I probably wouldn't WANT it after finding out the disc was copy protected- it presumes I'm a thief and I don't choose to do business with someone that will willingly assume I'm so without proof to the fact.) the music to be playable, etc. I'd be walking out and getting the cheapest walkman I could find (if I already didn't have one...) and rig it up to my soundcard on my PC and re-encode the entire disc, chop up the sound into songs and then burn a playable disc. It's not hard at all to do this, Radio Shack and other places sell patch cables that will do this whole thing nicely and you can often listen to the disc while you're encoding it.

It's telling that the entire CD showed up on Kazza shortly after it shipped.

Oops...

[NanoGator]

"Uh, mistaken belief. You do buy the right to listen to it, and in a restricted way"

I forgot something in my original post. I was talking about perception, not the legality of it. I should have phrased my statement better. The point of my post was that the RIAA claims that people won't pay for music, and they said that Apple was partly to blame. I was saying that if people think music is free then that is the RIAA's fault for playing them on the radio. When somebody goes to buy a CD, they don't THINK they're buying a license, they THINK they're buying convenience.

I did not make that clear at all, and I apologize.

Great post...I agree

[scotsalmon]

I agree with everything you said.

I know a lot of good artists (independent ones, mostly) who depend on CD sales more than anything else to make their money, and can personally attest to the damage done to their chances of success by music sharing programs.

Since I like and respect these artists, I don't steal music. But I listen to CD's on my computer more than any other player I own, and I would be essentially forced to pirate music if this sort of protection became widespread (most likely, I'd be forced to illegally download music that I already own on CD -- *boggle*).

It's truly bizarre. Don't they have anyone intelligent working for these music labels? Surely someone must be able to stop the madness and get moving on a real, sustainable, profitable music distribution system for the 21st century...

I do recognize, though, that the music industry has to go through the phase it's going through right now. If no one stole music digitally, the industry would keep cranking out overpriced CDs that are 25 years behind digital content distribution technology. The recent/current heyday of anarchic music sharing has made the industry take notice. They are not yet savvy enough to know what to do (because they saw no need to learn before now), so they turn to tricks that failed for software 20 years ago, tricks that will be worked around and voided in a naturally escalating technology war reminiscent of the one that the software industry eventually gave up on when I was in middle school. Sooner or later the music industry will recognize one or more of the many valid ways to make money distributing digital content that are more convenient and efficient for both the publisher and the customer (as many software companies have done already). But we have to go through this insanity first. Sigh.

-Scot

This is an incentive to download it instead.

[wackybrit]

I don't know if I speak for many, but a year ago I sold my entire hi-fi separates system and my $300 speakers (good by MY standards). The space I'm now living in is WAY too small for these loud luxuries.

So I got a new soundcard, some small high-quality Cambridge Soundworks PC speakers, and started to convert all of my CDs to MP3.

My CD player/hi-fi IS my computer. I even listen to the radio over the Internet now, because I don't have a tuner! For those of us who live in very small spaces/apartments, it's a good idea.

So what do we do when we want to buy CDs? We can't play them on our PCs, so hey.. the ONLY OPTION is to download them! The record companies haven't got their full catalogs onto their digital download sites yet, so what, legally, can I do? Not get the music? That's stupid.

So, they're shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to me. If a CD is protected, I can't buy it even if I wanted to since my CD player IS my PC!

Easy to bypass

[Srin Tuar]

The reason they dont do this is quite simple:
The part of recoding to a lossy format that is actually lossy is the psychoacoustic model: where you filter out bits of the signal in such a way as to make it unnoticeable.

The whole point of doing that is to reduce the amount if information in the music, and hence make it easier to compress.

When you recode, then you are taking that irreversible step twice, and lossy(A) != lossy(lossy(a)), so you get a further degraded signal. (the models are not really designed to deal with already modified music).

If the psychoacoustic model has been preapplied to the music for you hovever, you can simply switch to a lossless format. A properly designed one could be taught to do this well, and for pre-trimmed wave files, its compression would be just as good as ogg or mp3.

Re:digital copies still possible?

[Buddicom]

Analogue copies, on the contrary, can be made to any analogue devices.

What about the digital (SPDIF/optical) outputs found on most decent CD players (even Sony's)? Sounds to me like you can still pull a 1:1 copy that way (most soundcards above a SoundBlaster ignore the protection bit). The downside of course is that the ripping would be in real-time.

Re:Somebody should print up better warning sticker

[rhombic]

If anybody wants to do this, I'd recommend using "tough tags"-- if you know somebody who works in a lab they probably have some. They're designed to stick to plastic even at liquid nitrogen temperatures. There's NO way to pull them off a plastic wrapper without tearing the wrapper ;>.

Oh Canada

[devilbat]

Assuming there was no loss of data I would suffer though a computer crash so that wouldn't have to listen to Celine Dion. That is a price I am willing to pay.

Sue them in small claims court

[WillSeattle]

For the cost of the repairs.

They sell shoddy merchandise that damages your audio playing equipment, then they are responsible for the damage.

This is how we play with the big boys.

hehehe

[linuxpng]

A quick glance at usenet shows 11.2 days ago in alt.binaries.sounds.mp3 the new Celine Dion CD. Guess the protection didn't help much.

Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure that the spyware falls under this category, as most have license agreements that "inform" the user what is going on. But Sony is selling a disk that does something that is not clearly detailed -- not only does it not play on a PC, it may well crash that PC. Compare that to the letter of the law (in Oregon, since that's where I am):

3) Any person who knowingly and without authorization alters, damages or
destroys any COMPUTER, COMPUTER system, COMPUTER network, or any COMPUTER
software, program, documentation or data contained in such COMPUTER, COMPUTER
system or COMPUTER network, commits COMPUTER CRIME.
...
5) A violation of the provisions of subsection (2) or (3) of this section
shall be a Class C felony. A violation of the provisions of subsection (4) of
this section shall be a Class A misdemeanor.


I think it would be hard to claim that by playing an audio CD on my computer that I was giving authorization for them to crash it! I would really love to see Sony executives charged with a class C felony for selling this disk...

Well done!

[DerFeuervogel]

No moderation privileges today, but I had to comment on a well written post.

My local Borders Bookstore is obtaining a copy of this book for me. Should have it by next Friday.

Copyrights and Copywrongs: The Rise of Intellectual Property and How it Threatens Creativity ISBN 0-8147-8806-8

Thanks again.

lucky we didn't ask for tea then

[alext]

Tea requires boiling water doesn't it? (OK, not in hotels, where the waiter thrashes a teabag in lukewarm water until it goes brown, but normally...)

I remember my grandmother used to focus a laser beam on her teapot and wait until it turned into a plasma before serving, but people no longer have time for these civilized rituals.

Ever heard of 1-bit DAC?

[yerricde]

96 is the limit, rest is "the equaliser" of your stereo.

And of your ears. Noise shaping moves dither noise up into areas where you can't hear jack because your ears act as an equalizer that cuts out most energy at 16 kHz and above. This is similar to how 1-bit delta-sigma DACs work: they output only 0 and 1 samples, but they shift dither noise up into the hundreds of kHz, and then they pass the result through an analog low-pass filter.

Re:Ever heard of 1-bit DAC?

[~roman]

And of your ears. Noise shaping moves dither noise up into areas where you can't hear jack because your ears act as an equalizer that cuts out most energy at 16 kHz and above. This is similar to how 1-bit delta-sigma DACs [google.com] work: they output only 0 and 1 samples, but they shift dither noise up into the hundreds of kHz, and then they pass the result through an analog low-pass filter.

Agreed, only that those are just differential sampling techniques + filtering (both analog or digital) to get rid of aliasing caused by sampling which may cause distortion (nonlinearities) on "slow devices" (amps, repros) with limited V/s. But it has nothing to do with dynamics, it just filters out freq. above 20 kHz before they can make any "damage".

what war are they fighting

[idesignit36]

From Sony's side one would think that by keeping the average user from playing a cd on his/her computer by means of copy protection that it would keep people from copying the music and distributing it illegally. Secondly, possibly forcing someone to purchase a new Sony product that can read the encoded CD. I think this form of anti-piracy will only increase the likelyhood of the albums ending up on p2p networks. I listen to the majority of my music either played off my computer or in my car. Why would i buy a cd that wont work in my computer, hmmm I WONT. But if i really really really want to listen to it on my computer i can either A) Download it from a p2p which of course would be illegal, or B)By the CD, play it in my home audio system that just happens to be run into the back of my audio card press play on one and record on the other....well which one do you think ill do? If im not mistaken its illegal either way. If I was the type to do something illegal I sure wouldnt fork out $20 to do it. So we have seen the trend go from record companies putting special tracks on CDs that you can only access by putting them in your PC or MAC (ie, Peter Gabriel, Britney Spears) to try and promote sales, to record companies putting special tracks on CDs to keep you from playing them on PCs and MACs to try and promote sales. Hey Sony, why dont you just quit producing CDS? Let every record store have a PC set up in the store connected to your hughe database of music. When a customer walks into a record store all that is in there is a free standing booth, i pick the songs i want, swipe my credit card and presto out a little slot in the booth comes a nice new freshly burned cd of just the songs i want in mp3 format. And then i can go online and do the same thing at $ONY.COM and the songs are made available for me to download. Just stop selling premanufactured CDS. I throw all my jewel cases and attached literature directly in the trash when i buy a cd anyway. SImply charge per song and put the burden of the media format on the consumer. Thats what we want anyway. I know, I know this sounds like almost every other pay per listen idea that hasent worked, but noone has done it right. If you get rid of the overhead of producing the pretty package and only offer the source in one format then it forces the consumer to purchase it that way.. I dont know just my 2 cents

It's been done.

[yardbird]

Good ol' FoxTrot.

Send a message... have some fun.

[makohund]

Make it known that people really don't like this stuff. This might cost a little more than going out to a movie or something but is likely to prove more entertaining.

1. Go to your favorite music store.
2. Find crappy copy-protected CD and take it to the sales counter.
3. Ask (not exactly quietly) "Is this the one that won't play in a computer?" and wait for them to say yes.
4. Purchase the CD.
5. Pull flat piece of wood out of bag/backpack and place it on the floor. Place CD on top of it.
6. Pull large mallet or hammer (a mini steel sledge is perfect, especially for the visual effect) out of the same bag/backpack.
7. Proceed to bash your newly purchased CD to tiny bits. (Be careful not to appear to endanger anyone else, or any other property in the store. Just your CD. The wood should protect their floor.)
8. Put your tools away in your bag, clean up your mess, and politely ask where you might dispose of the bag of broken pieces.
9. Say thank you, and mention that you'd be happy if they would be sure to let you know if any more defective CD's come to market and may be found in thier store. Perhaps leave them a pre-printed explanation for them to ponder over while you walk away.

Try again

[tweakt]

Okay, given that a properly encoded MP3 (e.g. lame --r3mix ) has been proven to be indistinguishable from the source material in double-blind tests

Dude! Get a better set of speakers. If you are listening to this on a set of speakers that came in a cow patterned box, try again. Listen to any MP3 on pro quality headphones and you will be amazed. I think a lot of people are USED to mp3 sound, they don't notice the high end getting absolutely TRASHED by compression. Also, a lot of times the bass response is diminished, most people don't even hear lower bass due to poor bass response of most speakers, and those that due, have loose muddy bass from their speakers anyhow, and wouldn't notice the difference.

Beyond that... you're plan makes no sense whatsoever.

Celine's Fans

[Anonymous Coward]

Serves people right if they can't diable AutoPlay...

Re:I can stand up to massive amounts of Celine Dio

[Anonymous Coward]

Who are the #1-#4 women? (mainly because I want to see how you misspell them)

What's on the tracks

[shaldannon]

(I'm curious, but too cheap to go buy the disc)

Re:What's on the tracks

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't tell: if I mount the CD as a disc I
can't find the additional tracks.
If I play the CD in the KDE CD player, it
stops when playing the additional tracks
(it doesn't crash, just doesn't do anything
with the info it is reading. I don't get any
read-errors on the console either.)
The additional tracks are at the end of the
CD (ie tracks 9 and 10 on a CD containing 8
regular tracks).

-- Eric.

Invisible Warnings?

[Anonymous Coward]

I just went down to my local HMV store (in Canada), and looked at the CD - front, back, top, bottom and spine. There is not a single warning that this CD will not play in a specific piece of consumer equipment. If I was an unsuspecting customer, I would not know any better. Then again, there is the possibility that the Canadian version is un-crippled, as it does not fall under the jurisdiction of the RIAA. Does anyone out there have any more information on this?

|3iff

Doesn't really matter in the long run

[shaldannon]

You guys can play it or not, but it won't affect the sales of the CD since Clear Channel (among others no doubt) is playing it all over the place (and having interviews with her and yadda yadda yadda)

This is just a sign of things to come

[Trogre]

We are already reaping the results of idiots ripping music they don't own. Try buying some blank CD-R's some time. The price is kept artificially high not because of price fixing, but taxes paid in turn to the RIAA to compensate for lost CD sales revenue!

That tars all CD writing people with the same brush. Those of us who LEGITIMATELY ogg vorbis our music (and burn them to CD for backup) are forced to sponsor the RIAA for the piracy we're supposed to be guilty of.

This latest countermeasure by Sony is just a sign of things to come. And it is going to get worse before it gets better.

Ultimately, I see one of three outcomes:

1) Things stay pretty much as they are, with people ripping music, companies implementing countermeasures, and crackers working out how to circumvent them in an endless war of consumers vs capitalists.

2) The RIAA will win, and no music will be able to be played except in RIAA-approved(tm) devices, which employ features such as string encryption and tamper-alarms. Monthly BIOS updates will be necessary (along with a small subscription fee) to download a new encryption key, otherwise it will stop working.

3) (and most likely) Artists will stop using monolithic recording companies altogether, as small businesses pop up with SOHO recording studios, printeries and distribution channels. Songs will be made available in numerous formats (ogg vorbis, realAudio, perhaps mp3 if they ever lose the patent ties), and be freely downloadable as "shareware". Consumers will be encouraged to donate (say $0.15 per track) via paypal or similar.

Don't Laugh

[Anonymous Coward]

I had this old 4x cdrom that would sometimes have trouble reading the disc, so it would spin it up to obscene speeds in a vain attempt to read it. I hit the eject button once while it was doing this and it promptly shot the disc across the room. Missed my head by 3" and left a mark in the wall...

I don't see how this really solves anything

[Athex]

If people want to record the music onto their computer, they will find a way, for instance you could play these CDs in a regular CD player, and just audio-out to a sound card. I think this will only make music listeners mad.

I can't listen to the CD in my PC?

[stickyc]

That sucks. I guess I'll have to go download the MP3 from some file sharing network if I want to listen on my computer?

Or does Sony think their act of good faith will prompt me to buy a Sony desktop CD player? Maybe the RIAA would have more luck getting in on the war on drugs and busting whoever's selling Sony the crack?

Re:I can stand up to massive amounts of Celine Dio

[Hektor_Troy]

Who are the #1-#4 women? (mainly because I want to see how you misspell them)

#1: Sarha Micehlel Gelar (Sarah Michelle Gellar)
#2: Sania Twine (Shania Twain)
#3: Kyli Minoge (Kylie Minogue)
#4: My soon-to-be former neighbour (but I'm not telling you her name ;-)
#5: Selma Hyak (Salma Hayek)

But - in my fantasies they all react to "honey" :-)

Thank you slashdot.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks slashdot. I now have another reason not to buy a CD at my local music store. I almost broke down today to look for something good...now I'll just continue going to concerts and singing in the shower.

Poor Monkey

[fm6]

Your scrotum? Why not where somebody can... oh. Never mind!

I'm jealous!

[fm6]

My freak list isn't a fraction of the size of yours! It bothers me. If people aren't mad at you, how do you know whether you're making a difference?

I think it is relevant..

[eightball]

Using your logic, people do not expect putting a audio CD into your computer to crash it either.

Since the warning label on the coffee cup was not enough to keep McDonalds from prosecution, putting a label saying "don't put in pc" should also not protect Sony.

How does this help?

[WiggyWack]

So, this copy protection is supposed to get people to STOP downloading music illegally and buy the CD instead???

Yeah, right. I'll never buy a copy protected CD.

Didn't crash my machine

[bytor4232]

Not that it matters, cause nobody will ever see this comment, but I bought the CD today put it in my CD drive. The worse thing that happened is that my CD-RW couldn't read it. Of course its Debian Woody, but hey, it still didn't crash ;)

Taxes on Blank CD's

[Nipok Nek]

This is a much simpler issue than most people seem to be making it. The Music industry is getting a tarrif, tax, or whatever you want to call it on every blank disc sold. This was to ment to pay them back for whatever amount of copying was going to go on. Now, Sony's making copying impossible. Are they sending those checks back?

Nipok Nek

No, it's reverse psychology

[Oink.NET]

Does anyone else think that Sony et al are shooting themselves in the feet here?

Ask yourself this question. How many people would have downloaded this album from a P2P network if the CD wasn't "protected"?

Now ask yourself, how many more people will go out of their way to download this album because it's "protected"? If you ask me, they're getting a heck of a lot of free publicity in a demographic that's pretty hard to penetrate (us paranoid geeks).

A potentially unintended side-effect: the publicity benefits the artist at the expense of the company!

metaphor YOU FUCKERS

[Anonymous Coward]

this is a perfect metaphor(wether you agree with it or not) as to why the "big 5" (media companies) are trying to implement copy protection.

eject

[Anonymous Coward]

"The CD will probably cause a system to crash, but it will not alter anything," the spokeswoman said. "And it won't eject properly, but that's just because the computer has crashed."
well speking as someone who uses a mac on a regulaar basis it sounds to me like there is no way to get the CD out if it crashes anytime the CD iss in the drive.(other than using a screwdriver posssibly)

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

I have it without protection

[UtSupra]

Here in Venezuela they sell it without protection. I am willing to exchange it for a protected one.
Do you realize how stupid this is? 1) counterfit CDs are very common in Venezuela; 2) Whoever buys it here will put it in Internet 3) The guy in Europe has a incentive to look for the Mp3s in Internet (since he/she can't create them legally.
assholes

key2audio

[mixedbag]

This cd uses the key2audio system for securing the cd. key2audio are owned by Sony.
Acording to their web site http://www.key2audio.com there is a system at http://www.esquare4u.com where by using the code included with your cd you can stream as often as you like, or download once the content of the cd. This seems to work with realplayer and WMP. I imagine that it uses codecs or such like to secure it.

key2audio say that their system adhears to the Red book standard:

A hidden signature applied to the disc during glass master manufacturing prevents playback on PC/MAC and thereby prevents copying or track ripping.

The high reliability is due to the fact that the audio part fully complies with the Red Book standard - not a single bit is changed in the audio data stream - i.e.: no uncorrectable errors are used to protect the audio data. This gives the highest audio quality for your protected music.

A protected CD still achieves a maximum recording time of 77 minutes and supports full ISRC, UPC and CD-Text capabilities.

An article on Stereophile, http://www.stereophile.com/shownews.cgi?1247 says that Philips are telling

the labels that restricted-use discs are not in conformance with the Red Book standard, and may not display the official Compact Disc logo found on all discs, including recordable media.

I indeed belive that these cd do not meet the red book since the red book says a CD is 74 minutes long not 77!
Also most cd-rom drives (if you look for detailed specs) say that they can read Red Book, Yellow Book, Orange Book etc CDs.

All the other books are fundementaly extentions to the orignal red book.

Thus if a cd-player says it can read red book CD's then those it cannot read are either faulty or do not meet the red book standard and therefore in the eyes of Philips

the discs no longer qualify as CDs and should be labeled clearly

My juke box

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello,

I have just finished installing my pentiunI mp3 juke box,

Its purpose keeping my music in one place with easy access

And also keeping the original in order and safe.

Am I stupid to thing that i can handle my stuff the way I want, maybe just because I have paid for it??

Secondo, what is the difference between having a copy of a Picasso or Miles Davis. Other than the one that has paid for the product has a little more than the one who afford a copy (in the case of a cd you get booklet and other stuff and Picasso you get the Original )

Tertio I tink the product we are offer is well overprice and that Artist should find a way to sell their own mp3 song, they could do that a fraction of the price and still get far more money then what the Music industry give them!!

Oh yeah?

[Kymermosst]

Mostly I am playing devil's advocate here to solicit responses, and yours is the one that strikes me as worth responding to:

Rather than argue terminology, let us apply your logic to some unpleasant situations that are probably not so self-advantageous to the music "pirate":

Proposed defense lines:

"Virginity is not a tangible thing. When I raped that little boy I didn't take anything from him. He's still got everything he had before I touched him."

"Since the bruises I gave her healed, my girlfriend is in exactly the same condition she was in before I hit her. Consequently, no damage was done."

"Identity is an intangible thing. Just because I used your name, and your social security number, doesn't mean you've lost anything. You still have them both."

Or, a couple of real ones that piss a lot of people off:

"Land value is an intangible thing. Just because I trashed my yard and consequently lowered the appraised value of yours doesn't mean I've done anything to you. You still have everything you had before."

"Land value is an intangible thing. Just because we regulated you out of using it for any reason doesn't mean you've lost anything. You still own the land."

Trying to play the "definition game" is a bullshit defense of obviously immoral action.

We'll use our now-agreed upon painting example. The artist put a lot of time into creating that painting. Many hours of effort. That painting has value because it is unique, that is, in limited quantity. For this example, that quantity is one. At least, it is until someone duplicates it. The mere act of duplication has now doubled the number of exact paintings in the example, and has consequently devalued the original.

The simple act of copying has devalued the painting. Even though you are correct in that the original artist has HIS copy of the painting, it is still less valuable because of the duplication.

When someone knowingly does something that reduces the value of your posessions, (and creative thought IS a posession, stealable or not), is it not akin to stealing? What about Enron? "Stock value isn't real, it's intangible and therefore it was perfectly fine of us to devalue everyone's retirement savings. It's really all little bits of paper, after all."

Now I will argue terminology:

My dictionary (Webster's New Universal Unabridged, Random House) gives the first meaning of "steal" as "to take without permission or right." I have established that by performing the act of copying, at least in regards to a painting, value is indirectly taken from the posessor of the original. Logically, this means that it almost fits the definition of "stealing."

But wait! There's more:

The second meaning is "to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgement." If this doesn't describe illegal copying, what does? Consequently, by definition (using this dictionary) piracy is stealing.

The fifteenth meaning given as an informal meaning is "acquired at a cost far below it's real value." Since I have established, and the market has established, that creative thought does indeed have real value, piracy is also theft by that definition as well.

Surprise! Seems you CAN steal the song.

I hope you can plainly see, that copyright infringement is, in fact, stealing, since we have established that at least one major dictionary seems to think so, and dictionaries reflect current usage.

You can steal the story.

You can steal the song.

You can steal the patented, fatally-flawed, decryption algorithm. (Though I can't imagine why you'd want to :)

Re:Oh yeah?

[someone247356]

Tsk, Tsk, Tsk....
If you are going to defend yourself, at least try and stick to defending what you said....

Your original position was that a person could "steal" intellectual property, I countered with examples illustrating that based on the common understanding (perhaps even the legal one) of stealing, that it was impossible to "steal" a piece of intellectual property. Now, I'm not saying that you couldn't violate a patent, nor infringe on a copyright, but that isn't the same as stealing. On to your counter examples....

1."Virginity is not a tangible thing. When I raped that little boy I didn't take anything from him. He's still got everything he had before I touched him."
You are right, he still has everything that he has before, except perhaps his piece of mind. But you are illustrating "rape" not theft. No points here.

2."Since the bruises I gave her healed, my girlfriend is in exactly the same condition she was in before I hit her. Consequently, no damage was done."
Actually damage was done, non-permanent damage being a temporal thing. That's defined as "battery" (For the lay people out there, assault is when you threaten to hurt someone, battery is when you actually do.) Note, beating up your girlfriend is not stealing. You haven't stolen anything. A closer analogy might have been vandalism. Still no help trying to cast something intangible as being stolen.

3."Identity is an intangible thing. Just because I used your name, and your social security number, doesn't mean you've lost anything. You still have them both."
Here you might succeed in confusing a few people, since this is commonly referred to as "identity-theft". I would propose that this is the same sort of mistake people like yourself make when they claim that copying a song is theft. It isn't. You can't "steal" someone's identity anymore than you can steal an idea. What you are doing is committing one or more of the following; fraud, possessing "false documents", deceit, defamation of character, etc. If you want to claim that you are me, that in and of itself isn't a crime. In fact I can pretend to be President Bush. Now if I procure a drivers license with president Bush's name and my face, or get a few credit cards in Mr. Bush's name, run them up and don't pay the bills, etc. I have broken any number of laws, but Mr. Bush is still the president, and I'm still just a "wanna-be" he still has his identity. So nope, nothing "stolen" here either. Try again.

4."Land value is an intangible thing. Just because I trashed my yard and consequently lowered the appraised value of yours doesn't mean I've done anything to you. You still have everything you had before."
Hmmm... Thank you for making my point. The above case doesn't equate to "stealing". There are obviously other laws that have been broken, but theft isn't one of them. You stated; "...doesn't mean I've done anything to you." You are absolutely correct, you haven't. "...you still have everything you had." yes indeed I do. You have changed the market conditions, but you haven't stolen anything from me. So this is yet another example of something that is not stealing.

5."Land value is an intangible thing. Just because we regulated you out of using it for any reason doesn't mean you've lost anything. You still own the land."
This one is a little trickier. While I still have the land, I have lost the right to do what I wanted with it. The land still hasn't been stolen from me though. So you have yet again failed to illustrate and example of a non-tangible being stolen. Your last example of course is one with a close analogy to what the RIAA and MPAA want to do. Namely tell you what you can or can't do with what you already own. It falls apart on a couple of points, so I'll take a moment to digress.
First off, in this country, unless you are a region, you never actually "own" land. If you don't believe me, buy a plot of land and don't pay your taxes for a few years. Land is "leased" from the government. Even if you "own" it outright, you still have to pay taxes on it. Secondly, land use regulations generally deal with the effects your actions have on the long term effects to that land, or its effects on others. Since you are in fact "leasing" the land it makes sense.

So none of your examples serves as an illustration of how one may "steal" an intangible object.

You then go on to discuss the effects on the valuation of the painting of someone making a copy. First, you have forgotten the value in a work by a particular artist. There are people who will pay millions for an original painting by a famous artist, even though there are millions of high quality copies in circulation. How much did the "Mona Lisa" last sell for?

While this is obviously an undesirable effect to you, it isn't stealing. In fact, doing something that lowers the value of your work/possession in most cases is expressly legal. Here are a few examples;

You build barrels, and make good money as a cooper selling barrels to the brewery. I invent aluminum kegs and the bottom falls out of your business. Have I stolen from you?

You own the only orange tree in Florida. It's worth millions. Someone plants an orchard down the road, I guess you should take them to court for "stealing" from you.

You own the patent on betamax video recorders, Another company invents VHS, everyone buys VHS recorders, your patent is basically worthless now. I must have missed that epic court battle.

I could go on for quite a while with examples of how doing something that lowers the valuation of your possession, without stealing or even touching your possession is perfectly legal. So why would should there be a moral imperative for me to refrain from doing something that might devalue your possession? Especially if the "value" is tied to an artificial scarcity.

If you bring a tanker truck of potable water into a region that is suffering a deadly drought, should I feel morally obligated NOT to bring my own fleet of tanker trucks into the region and give away water knowing full well that I will utterly destroy the market value of the water that you were selling?

As to Enron, what they did was illegal, but it wasn't stealing. Manipulating stock prices in the manner that was done was already illegal under various laws, Insider trading, fraudulent accounting practices, etc. While this, along with most of the above examples are illegal, sometimes terrible things, none of them are stealing.

Your last bastion of hope is a retreat into a dictionary definition of stealing. A valiant attempt. Unfortunately the dictionary defines the common use of a term not the legal definition of same. Which is why most laws and legal documents are painstakingly detailed. But even there you fall short.

Your first definition doesn't specify what is taken, "...without permission or right." It is assumed that something has to be tangible to be taken in that context, like a bike or a television.

Your second definition, "to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgement." Doesn't get you there either. If I copy your painting and label it "a copy of painting X originally by artist Y I have acknowledged your work, hence I have NOT stolen anything. In legal terms that might copyright infringement. If I tried to pass it off as solely my own work then plagiary, perhaps even forgery. Still not stealing.

Then you skip to the fifteenth definition (what happened to the other 12 definitions?) "acquired at a cost far below it's real value." Now, unless I am gravely mistaken you are into the realm of colloquialisms. Such as "I got this VCR at 80% off in that going out of business sale. It was a steal." So unless everyone who shops during sales, or buys antiques at yard sales should be sent off to prison, that doesn't fit either.

So no, you have NOT established that you can in fact steal a song. Not even the dictionary can help you.

Copyright infringement may be illegal, but it is NOT stealing.

Left with no choice

[5c077]

I own a computer but not a CD player, to listen to Celine Dion I have no choice but to download it, because the CD won't work in my PC. Thanks Sony, you've turned me from a legitimate customer into a pirate.

Re:I HAVE A GOOD PORK SANDWICH STORY YOU FUCKERS

[Anonymous Coward]

So your a jew?