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Microsoft Responds to IE Criticism
darthcamaro writes "Looks like there was an online free-for-all on Microsoft's chat servers yesterday with Internet Explorer engineers. Several interesting things come out in the story including the fact that the IE big wig thinks that all of his engineers should have other browsers installed to see what they can do and, catch this...he thinks they're the underdog. 'I've worked at Microsoft for 14 years and I have always felt like the underdog,' said Hachamovitch. 'Maybe the road behind us looks easy, but at the time going it wasn't. I welcome the feedback today. Getting informed is the only way I know to get better. The day we don't get heated feedback I'll be concerned.'" Reader nkodengar notes that "Microsoft has posted an article on MSDN listing everything that will be affected by the the updates to Internet Explorer in Service Pack 2. This will be particularly important to developers who use ActiveX controls, pop-up windows and file download counters in their websites..."
"People choose," replied Hachamovitch (IE lead engineer). "Hundreds of millions of people actively use Windows and they get to choose. Nothing in Windows as it ships keeps them from downloading other software that extends their browsing experience (e.g. the Google or Ebay toolbars) or changes it (e.g. an alternative browser)."
No they don't. Maybe I do, but I'm a computer expert.
My mom certainly has no clue that there even IS anything other than IE to use. Most of our mothers probably don't even realize that IE is not "the Internet".
There's a reason AOL is still popular with 20+ million people -- because it's easy and most computer users are idiots when it comes to technical knowledge/know-how.
I find Microsoft guility of contempt -- contempt of not upgrading their browser. They kept quoting x-million users but then saying they had a choice. No they didn't. They used what popped up when they clicked on a Web address somewhere on their computer, and they've used that default browser from Day fucking One.
Microsoft is going to be looking at major lawsuits if they don't immediately push this RC-2/SP-2 patch series out immediately. They owe it to the world and they owe it to those of us who write proprietary software that DOESN'T suck.
(P.S. GMAIL invites! I woke up this morning and saw that my other gmail account got 2 new invites, so if you reply with a funny joke about sex and befriend me, I'll give em out to my two favorite ones.)
If you liked my post,
We've seen what they said about it, now all thats left is to see what they DO about it...
It is good to know that they aren't just sitting on it.
It simply isn't fair to blame Microsoft for the ignorance of their users.
If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
Perhaps MS has finally looked at themselves and figured they were behind the times with their browser technology. Sure, they might still be #1, but word spreads quick about the underlying problems and that there is actually another browser choice out there... And it's better! The security problems right now are just the icing on the cake.
Why can't you comment on them? Why wouldn't you implement the CSS3 standard? Am I missing something here?
Hmmm.
Over the years I've read several books and opinion pieces on Microsoft and their success. "Microsoft as the underdog" was a theme in many of them. I guess it's their strategy for motivating their workforce.
As a peon, what would influence you to work harder? Being told that you're the underdog and you're going to get stomped on by Sun, Apple and probably now Linux, or being told that you have a world wide monopoly in the desktop computing space and companies are throwing buckets of money at you every year despite the fact that your software is mediocre at best.
It seems like a logical thing to tell your employees. I guess they leave out the specifics of exactly where they would be classified as the underdog.
How can I tell if Internet Explorer has blocked my pop-up window?
Functions that return a window object will return null if the window is blocked. Always check the return value of window.open() before using it to avoid script errors when pop-ups are blocked.
By allowing a script to determine if the popup was blocked, it opens the floodgates for even more annoying and intrusive advertising.
Now whenever the page detects it's popup was blocked, it will force the user to view a full-screen advertising page for a pre-determined time, or other annoyances.
When will advertisers get the message. If people block pop-up windows, they do so for a reason - they are not interested in you're stupid special offers. They should spare themselves the bandwidth and everyone else the annoyance.
The default setting in IE will be to block popups.
This pretty much means that the popup window will be officially dead in a year's time.
tcd004
When I build my software applications I have the end-user in mind. Why is it too much to ask the same from Microsoft? Why is they could get away with it, where if I blamed it on the user, it could mean losing my job? You make no sense.
Hmmm.
I don't get it. Can someone explain the article? What's so special about file download counters that will cause them to break in the new version of IE? I thought they were server-side anyway?
Cyde Weys Musings - Scrutinizing the inscrutable
It's fair to hold M$ accountable for taking unfair advantage of the ignorance of users. Who else would educate them? And which would be more appropriate to change, one monopoly company under court administration for illegally exploiting its market, or millions of unorganized consumers with better things to do today?
--
make install -not war
"Most of our mothers probably don't even realize that IE is not "the Internet".
Wait... are you telling me IE is not "the internet"?
I think you are on to something.
tabbed browsing
popup blocking
mouse gestures
Incorporate stuff like that and get a jump on the competition...
Oh, wait....nevermind.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.
born on third base and thinks he hit a triple
is it a shock to anyone to find that microsoft still believes that they are the underdog, even thought they are the single largest software company in the world? sheesh...talk about living in denial...
I don't see why so many people bash Internet Explorer (IE). Yes, there are more "secure" browsers out there, such as FireFox, but it's been my experience that IE not only loads pages faster, but has more features and support than FireFox and other browsers do. I have used IE my entire life, and I've never gotten any adware/spyware/viruses on my machine (cookies, of course). Why? Because I implement good browsing habits, like NOT clicking 'Yes' to Gator installations and other programs like it. I think that most users of other browsers criticize IE because it is popular, not because it is a bad browser. SP2 for Windows XP adds pop-up blocking functionality to IE, and from what I can tell so far it works rather well. I'm anxious to see what will happen in the "browser race" in the future.
Two freaks, no foes. It takes absolutely nothing to make some people angry.
I just want tabs in IE...
Let's remember, while Mozilla was still on unstable milestones MS had a much more advanced and working browser. It's barely changed since then. They're dragging their asses. It must have been a decision within microsoft, there's no way they could fuck up THIS BADLY with IE development.
IE stills sucks at CSS support. The bottom line is, when I design something and test it in mozilla, it also looks fine in Opera and Safari. When I look at it in IE there's a very good chance something looks wrong due to some missing feature or weird implementation.
They just hack everything together. You can't even use css like tr:hover although a:hover works because of their shitty implementation.
Photos.
Looks like MS has now gone for secure by-default way:
1. The modal installation prompt for ActiveX controls will be initially suppressed using the Information Bar.
2. Changes would have to be made to the way some pages automatically redirect or behave differently when refreshed after a control is not installed
3. If the dialog does not provide an option to install the ActiveX control, the file might not be correctly signed. - Phew! No more hidden installs then, hopefully!
4. In SP2, the Information Bar will suppress file download prompts that are launched automatically
5. Enforcement of file-extensions to match the content-type.
6. SP2 will have the pop-up blocker that is turned on by default
7. And, finally, there are some browser window restrictions
I still don't think SP2 will be a panacea, but for corporations with a large number of users, or naive end-users, SP2 should bring a sigh of relief...
http://efil.blogspot.com/
Now we see the denial inherent in the system. The delusion apparently goes to the bone. Mean old Department of Justice, picking on nice little Micro$oft... at least the big bad government giant is sleeping now.
--
make install -not war
Getting informed is the only way I know to get better. The day we don't get heated feedback I'll be concerned.
Every time you complain to any software company about a bug, a misfeature, or a problem, you are giving them something pretty valuable, something they would otherwise have to pay a lot of money to find through testing. But all your investment in time and bug reporting is repaid by--having to pay for the next upgrade.
It's like sending the company a $50 donation and then still paying $200 for the next upgrade.
That's one of the reasons why it is so important to use open source alternatives when available: when you report bugs in OSS, you don't pay for the resulting improvements over and over again.
Users, not programmers or lines of code, are the most valuable asset any software project has.
I think there is a common misconception that non computer experts are completely clueless. Now before you give me cupholder stories, peep this. A while ago I visited my mother who is in no way a computer expert. To my surprise, I saw a Mozilla icon on the desktop. I asked her if she used it and she said yes. She had downloaded it after hearing on the news how insecure IE was. She did the install (next, next, next, finish) and started using it no problem.
Now she doesn't do all the power user stuff but the point is that with a basic understanding of computer usage she was able to kick the IE habit.
Don't underestimate the ability of the average user to see the problems that IE has and to move away from it. Apathy however can be powerful and I think that's the main culprit.
Blaze a trail to the New World
One thing that Slashdotters tend to forget in their eagerness to hold Microsoft in contempt is that they are not stupid.
They may not have much respect for the typical consumer, be slow to respond, and ship buggy software, but they are anything but stupid.
From their standpoint, there really is not much imperative need to respond to complaints until they become critical enough to convince a common user to switch to a competing product.
But when it becomes apparant that such a thing is happening, they can and will respond.
END COMMUNICATION
am willing to take the responsibility of repeatedly kicking them in the nuts if it'll make them develop better code.
I didn't know they welcome the 'heated feedback'. Poor things...all they had to do was ask.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
For the size of Microsoft, that's quite an underdog!
:-)
Wonder how it got there?... oh, bad programming practices for one!
http://efil.blogspot.com/
In the actual discussion, their reply to any question about concrete features -- including standards support, CSS2, CSS2.1, CSS3, tabbed browsing, and PNG alpha transparency -- was, "We can't at this time commit to implementing xxx but we will look at it carefully."
They seemed evasive and unwilling to say anything except marketing-speak. What's the point of chatting to the community if you aren't allowed to talk about the product?
Does that mean we get to nail them repeatedly with giant red dodgeballs?
WOW! Can we organise a forum somewhere for these guys to discuss this? I'm sure a lot of slashdotters will be interested in having a "little chat" with the guys who make pop-up windows ...
Does this mean all the great stuff on sourceforge will no longer download properly? You know: Your download should start in 5 seconds, if not click here. I assume this means those automatically started DLs won't work any more. OTOH, I would never download (or do) anything with IE anyway.
What, precisely.. is the point of having such a press release?
:/ what is the point?
Is it to engender sympathy b/c microsoft is feeling abused or unloved?
Is it damage control because Microsoft finally figured out that many people are dissapointed in IE?
Or is it a press release that simultaneously tells the masses that Microsoft recognizes the problems, but wants users to still stick with it 'cause they are so concerned?
Hrmmmm
It's a bizzare situation, either way??
Just ruminating.. I'm not trying to be insightful or anything.
Which, frankly, sucks because there are so many features on Firefox that I like, but it's so slow that I can't use it for everyday browsing.
My question is this: Are we so anti-Microsoft that we'll settle for clunkier software without complaint, just because it's not made by Microsoft? Where is the hue and cry for a faster, more responsive Firefox? Why do we accept things without complaint just because we admire the politics of the developers?
"Times have not become more violent. They have just become more televised."
-Marilyn Manson
Oh great, they're looking at possibly, maybe doing more to support CSS3.
WTF? I don't want them to add more CSS, I want them to get what they have working like it should.
All the designers I have worked with are mad as hell. The amount of hacks they have to use to produce CSS that is cross-browser compatible and doesn't look like shit on IE is absurd, and the extra time spent on that is killing my budgets.
In other words, I'm mad as hell with IE and Microsoft. I don't really give a damn that IE doesn't have tabbed browsing, or that it ships with insecure defaults. Couldn't give a rat's ass about the lack of pop-up blocking. I care that every f'ing simple web design project's budget has to account for a few extra hours getting their shit working properly.
When FF hits 1.0, I'll go on a mission to convert as many people from IE. I hope others do the same; maybe this will help M$ wake up and smell the standards.
Information: "I want to be anthropomorphized"
No. All of the IE engineers should have a twelve-year-old kid use their computer at night while they're out of the office. Maybe after uninstalling a few thousand pieces of spyware they'll reconsider some of their basic design choices.
My mom certainly has no clue that there even IS anything other than IE to use. Most of our mothers probably don't even realize that IE is not "the Internet".
That has nothing to do with Microsoft. Mozilla can freely advertise its products. Microsoft isn't going to do it for them. If your mom has never heard of Firefox, then Firefox needs to get the word out better. That doesn't mean people don't have a choice, it means they're not informed.
He's right--nobody is holding a gun to your head to use IE. For the record, my mom does use Firefox. Of her own free will.
"People choose," replied Hachamovitch (IE lead engineer). "Hundreds of millions of people actively use Windows and they get to choose. Nothing in Windows as it ships keeps them from downloading other software that extends their browsing experience (e.g. the Google or Ebay toolbars) or changes it (e.g. an alternative browser)."
What a load of shit. I spent 8 hourts on line with MS tech support trying to disable IE entirely from my system. You see, when you remove it, the system recreates it. And even when it isn't there, it uses a default installed version which is integrated into the system.
Microsoft tech support has NO CLUE on how to remove it so I messaed around and came up with a way to have all Microsoft apps default to using Firefox instead
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
What have the IE engineers been doing for the last three years? Handing out towels in the rest rooms?
Before you folks even THINK about implementing outrageous and curiously new features like... Tabbed Browsing or ActiveX, why don't you seriously think about the fact that the core part of IE is a load of junk. How about making the render engine RENDER XHTML and CSS2 properly?! IMPLEMENT THE STANDARDS *COMPLETELY.*
... what a concept ... have it render properly in IE!
I, along with so many other developers are sick and tired of hacking our otherwise perfectly valid and conforming CSS and markup to make it display properly in the hack you call a browser, which has remained virtually unchanged since the *conception* of Mozilla's Gecko engine. Before you start implementing *parts* of CSS3, why don't you fully and *PROPERLY* implement CSS2? Have you seen the numerous sites dedicated to Internet Explorer specific CSS hacks? You are the most HATED browser. Developers are outraged. It's ridiculous. No one CHOOSES to use IE.
I feel guilty about flaming you on CSS support. I'd much rather see the browser and company just collapse under the power and superior quality of Free and Open Source software. But since that's not going to happen any time soon, and since you're not going to be shipping Firefox or an alternative with your POS software you call an Operating System, and since it's unfortunate that somewhere like 90% of the population uses that abomination you call Internet Explorer... my head would stop spinning so fast if I could just write valid XHTML markup and valid CSS and
Just stop trying and give up, for the good of the common man. Really. Your days are numbered, so why not take some time to think about the good old days, and just let natural progression drag you under.
Thank you.
The reason why MS is potentially a big deck of cards is that they consistently shove things down peoples' throats and therefore never get to see what they *would* choose if they had the choice. This gives them an artificial sense of satisfaction among their user base, when it's simply a very long and forceful suppression. It's actually in their long-term best interest to provide people options and see what their choice is *absent* coercion. Otherwise, they will continue to eat their seed corn.
With popups gone, people will resort to javascript alert()s.
"Do you want to download our new penis enlargment software?" (yes/no)
*clicks no*
"Are you sure you dont? It will make your penis 5 times longer straight away... and if you add it to startup, your penis will grow 5 inches on every reboot. Visit our homepage." (yes/no)
*clicks no*
"Ok, so may we interest you in some generic viagra instead?"
ARGHHHH!
FireFox has been faster (and I mean FASTER) for some time than IE.
And for features, how does IE have more features when you get tabbed browsing and popup blocking in Mozila or FireFox?
What "features" does IE have that FireFox is lacking?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Check back to the Netscape trial and read Microsoft's rational for "integrating" the browser with the OS.
Also, check the comments of people who said that doing so would INCREASE the security risks.
Now, read the comments TODAY about the security holes attributed to IE and how difficult it is for Microsoft to fix them.
This is NOT a problem of "the ignorance of their users".
This is a problem that stems from an IDIOTIC approach to security that was motivated by the desire to destroy Netscape as a company.
... smell the coffee.
The sound of the world's smallest violin.
Awwww poor, MS!
Nobody's holding a gun to someone's head to use IE. If they don't like IE, they can use something else. If they don't know about anything else, that's not Microsoft's fault, it means they're just not informed. Mozilla needs to advertise better. It's the Internet, for pete's sake. Get the word out.
I love when people play victim just because IE is included with Windows. That's like saying you "don't have a choice" when it comes to Konquerer, simply because it's integrated into KDE. Sorry, you can use whatever you want on both KDE and Windows, and it's not the dominant browser's fault if people don't use anything else.
I guess what I'm trying to say is whining and playing victim isn't going to get people to switch any sooner. Mozilla can be a grownup and plug its browser, as can its users. I just don't see how people not knowing about it suddenly means IE is "forced" on them. Nobody's forcing anybody. If you were forced to use IE, that would mean Windows itself was blocking other browsers from working. That's just not true. You can use whatever the hell you want.
No, it is Internet Explorer in Service Pack 2.
Because honestly, where in the fu' else would it be. The Internet Explorer 'upgrades' are packaged inside of the Windows Service Pack, because gee golly wiz Mr. Jeepers, in case you haven't noticed, Internet Explorer is a part of Windows XP.
-Brandon
PS You insensitive clod
People don't choose IE. It's a default icon on their desktop and the default broswer in the file associations. Most Joe Sixpack users just don't know any better or are afraid to change or too lazy to change. If they do happen to know that they *can* change, they probably don't know *how* and are too lazy to find out or afraid because computers intimidate the average user.
If the Browser-Fairy were to suddenly change the target of the desktop icon on every computer all over the world from iexplorer.exe to firefox.exe, the market share for IE would go to something like 10% or less. Very few users would make the effort to switch it back. IE is a virtual monopoly because Windows is a desktop monopoly. There is no conscience choice involved.
Anybody developing activex controls today I would put in the category of "Moron", and I think I'm being kind.
ActiveX was and is a dumb idea.
Actually SP2 will be hell on my company's web interface. We supply order data for some 400+ trading partners, many use our web front end to pickup and send data.
Our B2B site uses wizard tools in the form of popup dialogs and allow realtime creation of data files that are "pushed" file downloads. To be clear, our users come to our site and expect the data we are trying to send them, but by absolutly blocking spawned windows and automatic downloads, users are going to spend a lot of time on the phone trying to find out how to make IE work the way IE was working.
Post: Sigged, for your pleasure.
Actually, returning null when window.open() is blocked is the usual behavior for Firefox, and I assume for most other popup-blockers, as well. If memory serves, window.open() returns the window it creates so that you can further manipulate it from your code. Thus, no windows created --> null return value. Those of you with popup blockers can test the functionality here.
to produce mediocre software. World class developers would probably feel the need to write hi-end software. Hopefully they wont change their attitude so the rest of us will become....oh, wait, help, STOP!
Puh, that was scary....but I'm okey now. Thank you!
(Arrrggghhhhh! Selling my soul for a gmail invite!)
OK, I lost my virginity on this one, I don't know how good the joke is but it definitaly works. Caution only point this joke at the right person.
These three male ants and one female ant are trapped in a jar. The femal ant is desperately trying to find a way out and one of the male ants says to her,
"I know how to get out of here and if you sleep with me tonight I will tell you how in the morning."
So the female ant in desperation says ok, only to wake up the next morning and find that the male ant is gone. She starts crying and the second male ant comes over to offer comfort. Again she tells the male ant that she really needs to get out of this jar and the male ant responds,
"I know how to get out of here and if you sleep with me tonight I will tell you how in the morning."
Again she falls for the ploy and the next morning awakes only to find the male ant has left. Being tricked twice and still trapped, she begins to cry hopelessly and the last ant comes over to her to offer comfort.
(PAUSE for effect)
Do you want to hear the punchline?
(Wait for positive response)
"If you sleep with me tonight I will tell you in the morning."
OK, OT and cheesy but hey it worked.
-- The morphemes of your disquisition are ascertainable, but they have eschewed an ambit of transpicuous exposition.
Ha, you should tell that to Microsoft...
The day we don't get heated feedback I'll be concerned.
Funnny, I thought having the Department Of Homeland Security recommending other browsers because of the abysmal security was plenty of reason for concern.
Yup, that sounds awfully familiar to me.
Recently spent 3 months developing a governement website (in the UK) that not only needed to be CSS3-formatted, but also completely accessible to W3C guidelines, AND acceptable to the clients' notoriously picky design department.
In the end, it took 6 weeks to build the site HTML and CSS to be compliant with W3C guidelines and Opera, Mozilla etc, and then another 6 weeks to get it looking the same on IE.
And the thing that *really* gets me is that 90% of the problems with CSS layout in IE is that they render elements in the wrong place by a consistent 1 or 2 pixels - I mean, WHY? Why is it so hard to spend an extra few days tweaking CSS rendering before you send your browser client out to a few hundred million users?
Jeez, this pisses me off. But then again, I did get paid for an extra 6 weeks. I guess there's hoardes of developers making money out of problems MS created one way or another.
sig:- (wit >= sarcasm)
Well, there have been several instances in the past where versions of one browser have been totally incompatible with the next. I specifically remember the differences in IE 4, 4.5 and 5. More recently, there have been subtle differences in 5 and 5.5
Specifically on IE front, I empathise that it becomes more difficult because a large number of websites have been written with only IE in mind. Maybe those are now considered flaws, but there was a time when IE was preferred because of those nifty things that it allowed one to do
This probably might make you unhappy, having to re-write probably large parts of your website, however, considering the number of attacks that have been targeted towards it, if the new SP protects the naive users, then I'm sure it will go down well with the user community
http://efil.blogspot.com/
My mother has enough trouble getting things to print, she could never understand how to download a new web browser. Hell, she probably doesn't even know what a web browser is. It's just like you said. They think IE IS the internet. And how many people like her exist in the world? It's outrageous. Joke time.... 3 nuns are sitting on a bench. A man walks by in a trench coat and turns towards them, revealing his nakedness underneath the coat. 2 of the nuns had a stroke, the other couldn't reach.
-The Royal Jugglist
It's just different strokes for different folks. You're a more knowledgable user, so naturally you're able to stave off spyware a bit better. With the ActiveX management and pop-up blocking, this should help protect a lot of the more ignorant users out there.
Around here, the prevailing attitude is that you're an idiot if you use Internet Explorer, because, you know, it's "M$" and all. But in the real world, people don't treat their operating systems and web browsers like religions and just use whatever they like best. If you like IE, keep on using it! I like Firefox and so will keep on using that. Variety is what makes the world interesting, you know...
The article discussed features associated with Windows XP service pack 2. I didn't see any mention of extending these IE enhancements to Windows 2000.
Does anybody know if IE enhancements such as pop up blocking will be available to Windows 2000 users?
MS does not try to create innovate products for customers. All MS does is look at where it is losing market share, then quickly hack a barely functional product that will keep customers from leaving. The world went GUI, a year later MS had a GUI. The Internet happened, a year later MS had a browser. Customer started putting servers on commodity hardware, much later MS had server software. This has been the case with media players, music services, nearly everything. Even the wonderful Excel was based on other popular products.
MS needs to give up the browser. It was a ill thought out reaction to the fear of losing market share, and all the problems result from the bad engineering that occurs when people are in a hurry. IE makes a fine application frontend, and they should concentrate on promoting it for that use. Data servers on the back end, the local IE rendering the GUI.
This will not happen because MS quality cannot compete in the open marketplace, and though many will continue to use IE due to the tight integration with other MS products, others will use the change as an opportunity to move to more reliable solutions.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Full CSS pages, here we come!
Oh, but first, IE has to implement the CSS standards... properly... and render them correctly. Huh, like that's gonna happen.
I think I'd rather wait for the snowball.
Shouldn't it be "Score: 5, Redundant?"
I thought that picking on M$ always gave you a good score. I am on slashdot, am I not?
Of course!
This is a fundamental part of the culture at MS. They nuture the "underdog feeling" there in order to remain so fiercely competitive -- even when the product is a near-monopoly.
I saw this when I was an intern on the Excel team some 10 years ago -- the team leaders took pride in obsessing over what the competition was doing, and acting almost as if the company were going to go out of business in 3 months if they didn't.
If this applies to the marketing/legal departments too, that would explain a lot of MS's behavior.
"Orthodoxy is unconsciousness" - Orwell
Microsoft *are* that car manufacturer, but they're just continually saying that it's the fault of the owner, for not reading the tiny warning label printed at the back of the battery tray, only visible when you get under the bonnet with a torch.
I was talking my sister through a nasty IE viral/spyware infection over the phone, and this is an actual conversation:
ME: Now close the web browser
SISTER: The what?
ME: Web browser, you know, the thing that you get to web pages with
SISTER: Huh?
ME: If you're looking at www.google.com, what software are you using?
SISTER: Oh, the big E thing. That's the internet
She is a 10 year computer user, and has a higher degree from a major university. I rest my case.
I called up my parents, of course, to inquire if she or I was adopted. Same parents, but she came from the shallow end of the gene pool.
Your contention is that users are mostly tech idiots and MS hires software writers whose work sucks. You got 'tude dude.
:).
Having met, at several levels, MS employees there have been no idiots to date. Any academic institution will also be able to inform you that MS tends to hire their best and brightest. The same is not true of consultants/independents who often have a very inflated perception of their worth and abilities.
Secondly, MS does seem to accept the fact that their prospective users are not technically savvy but doesn't treat them as idiots. Updating is made easy. To the detriment of their current software, they maintained backward compatibility far longer than many think they should have. While not perfect, their interfaces are made to be easy to use. The same is not true of a tremendous amount of OSS and independent software that is out there.
The MS bashing is sour grapes. If something came along that was truly much better, MS would sink like anything else. Look at the automobile industry. Why doesn't everyone own a Japanese auto? Because really, the American products are good enough. MS is good enough (and American
"Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
What would we ever do without these wonderful features?
Holy sweet mother of mercy... would people stop talking about tabbed browsing like it's the be all and end all of feature sets!
Every conversation that I have ever heard regarding why browser X is better than IE starts, and ends, with "browser X has tabbed browsing."
Yes. It can be convenient. But it's not the silver bullet that will win the browsers wars.
Personally, I frequently find it annoying. If I'm trying to access multiple web pages, and another application, there are too many hoops to jump through. non-tabbed browsers have multiple windows to switch to, tabbed browsers require switching to one window, and then again to the right tab. I'm sure you could say "Just don't open the tab then." But that's not really the point... usually, by the time that I realize that I want to compare the contents of multiple tabs against an additional application, I already have those tabs opened.
I don't exactly consider it the "new hotness" of open source browsers. It was available in opera before it was available in mozilla.
Lastly, it's old. It's not a common feature set. Claiming this is the "best" feature of your browser is like claiming that your car is better cause it has keyless entry... and no one elses does... right.
The only major browser that does not support it is IE. That's it.
It simply isn't fair to blame Microsoft for the ignorance of their users.
True enough if it were simply that Microsoft was meeting the needs of ignorant users. But have they taken any actions that have contirubted to that ignorance? Have the failed to fix things they should have fixed because they correctly concluded that most of their users were too ignorant to notice?
I haven't done web development for a long time, so I'm probably missing something here, but what's the point of calling it "popup blocking" if you let a function called "createPopup" still execute? I guess all of those X-10 "security" *cough* naked neighbour in the pool *cough* camera ads will have to be rewritten from window.open() to createPopup(), and the problem will still remain.
I switched to Firefox at work last week, after using Opera for a few years at home. Buh-bye, IE. (And no, IT doesn't know. They also think I'm still using MS Outhouse, while I've actually been using Sylpheed-Claws with POP3 for almost 1 year now.)
-paul
Pistol caliber is like religion: everyone has their favourite, and theirs is the only right choice.
What the crap have they been doing for the last THREE years? Playing Halo?
Check out some of these release dates:
6.0 --> 31-Dec-2001
6.0 SP1 --> 28-Aug-2002
I thought IE on the Mac was dead... judging by their release schedule, IE on the PC has been dead for years. Any other software company that waited *years* to release their next version of internet software (or an operating system, no less) would be dead in the water.
What really makes me mad is they drove other browsers into the ground during the war, only to sit on their haunches and enjoy the elimination of their competition. Thank goodness for Mozilla, or we'd all be in real trouble.
Get to work MS.
--J
Microsoft has been using this strategy for years, it's called "embrace and extend". Basically, when you have most of the market, if you leave in a few conspicuous bugs (e.g. rendering anomalies) or non-standard behaviour, but otherwise implement a powerful and popular standard, you achieve extended lock-in to your particular product. Everyone is forced to spend time adapting to you, and frequently don't bother with implementing for other users. That's why MS doesn't ever want to fully comply with standards. Because they can.
--A Polar bear is a Rectangular bear after a coordinate transform.
I've worked at Microsoft for 14 years and I have always felt like the underdog
"..but they paid me too much for doing too little which is why I have stayed here 14 years."
Maybe the road behind us looks easy, but at the time going it wasn't.
"It's going to be just as difficult in future."
I welcome the feedback today.
"...but I'm going to do nothing about it."
Getting informed is the only way I know to get better.
"I've really messed up in the past."
The day we don't get heated feedback I'll be concerned.
"..because that means our products work as they should and I'll be out of a job."
To defend Microsoft a little, they are not the only purveyors of corporate bullsh*t. But I get so annoyed that they think we, as the general public, cannot immediately see through this coverage of facts.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
notice how they kept side-stepping the questions about being W3C compliant!
Obviously if they were 100% compliant then web developers would stick to the standards, and any compliant browser would work and IE would start to lose market share.
Notice that his responses kept repeating the "needing to support current customer configs". What he really means is "ensuring continued customer lock-in to IE and Windows".
I bet they had PR coaches sitting right next to them the whole time the chat was going on.
Hilarious!
Is the juice worth the sqeeze?
thats crap. users should educate themselves. why on earth is it microsoft's job to educate users, just becuase users are "too busy" to educate themselves?
if consumers can't differentiate between a good product and a bad product thats their own fault.
good grief, how about a little personal responsibility for your own decisions. people are too helpless and disadvantaged to research a product on their own? maybe we shouldn't even sell products. people can't handle that level of responsibility. yeah lets just have the smart people like you tell us what we should buy. lets scrap the whole economy and just give people what they need. yeah, i mean a planned economy worked so well for the soviet union.
Says the MSDN article:
Versus the spec (emphasis mine):
Fortunately both the HTTP spec and the article think URLs have extensions. *bangs head against wall*.
-- Arien
Ever notice the "if your download doesn't start in 5 seconds click here" line usually on the very same page?
Photos.
I think it's a good development. For one, it means that not everyone will go over to firefox. I wouldn't want everyone on firefox, just as I don't want everyone on internet explorer. I want there to be some sort of balance.
I'm fine with a vast majority of people using IE once this service pack comes through for XP. If it does what they want it to, and they aren't putting themselves at risk, then I'm all for it.
My concern is for the users on legacy operating systems, who will never get an internet explorer update. They will still be vulnerable to exploitation. As they still comprise a surprising amount of internet users, this is some cause for concern. Any news on if Microsoft will be releasing the updates to IE as a standalone upgrade? Or are these things specific to the operating system?
The conspiratorial part of me wonders if Microsoft was planning this all along. To leave the browser abandoned so people get scared about security issues, and then release the fix for many security issues as a Windows XP only service pack.
"If the Content-type ProgID for a given file does not match the file extension ProgID, Internet Explorer in XP SP2 may take the following actions: 1) the user may be prompted to download the file and 2) the file will not be executed in the extension-handler if it fails to execute in the mime-handler."
I'm not so sure I like or agree with that one.
MIME types are there for a reason, so I can serve anyfile.anyext as text/html or image/jpeg. Or name.hubba as a Quicktime movie. I'd expect both to work, since that's what MIME types are for...
Extensions are a bad hack, and a relic from the DOS era. They should get rid of them instead of enforcing them (yeah, I know Mac OS X partially fell for extensions also, poor sods).
thats crap. users should educate themselves. why on earth is it microsoft's job to educate users, just because users are "too busy" to educate themselves?
if consumers can't differentiate between a good product and a bad product thats their own fault.
good grief, how about a little personal responsibility for your own decisions. people are too helpless and disadvantaged to research a product on their own? maybe we shouldn't even sell products. people can't handle that level of responsibility. yeah lets just have the smart people like you tell us what we should buy. lets scrap the whole economy and just give people what they need. yeah, i mean a planned economy worked so well for the soviet union.
What he doesn't understand is that he can't be the underdog because he's not competing. To compete you have to have a product to sell. Internet Explorer is not for sale. First person to find a link to a site selling Internet Explorer proves me wrong.
Illegal product dumping is not competition.
If guns kill people, then CmdrTaco's keyboard misspells words.
Let's not forget to mention the other benefit of using a HTTP client other than IE. You get to vote! That is, when web administrators review their logs, they will see more wide-spread use of other browsers and this will hopefully prompt them to produced web sites that are not IE centric. And this will benefit everyone
aint life cool?
Is the juice worth the sqeeze?
One slight problem with your article is the permissions thing won't work if you are running FAT32 - you need NTFS for full permissions support.
Damien
I've read the article, that's why I said that it had to be a corporate decision.
Photos.
What's better? Clicking no on gator pop ups or not getting gator pop ups?
Part of the reason MS thinks of itself as an underdog is their inability to really innovate. They've never been first in any software category - they're good enough to be the last man standing, but that requires competence and persistence, not innovation.
Their marketing and sales force has the general public convinced they're brilliant innovators, but among their technical peers, they're behind the curve. We know it, they know it, and it gives them an inferiority complex a mile wide.
To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
Do you get the feeling MS is really starting to sweat that they are simply out of ideas and finding fewer places to steal from since they strangled thier own market place?
> The reason why MS is potentially a big deck of cards is that they consistently shove things down peoples' throats
Decks of cards shove things down peoples throats. And people wonder why english is so hard to understand.
so... auto makers are illegally taking advantage of users becuase their users have to change their own oil?
if consumers can't differentiate between a good product and a bad product thats their own fault.
good grief, how about a little personal responsibility for your own decisions. people are too helpless and disadvantaged to research a product on their own? maybe we shouldn't even sell products. people can't handle that level of responsibility. yeah lets just have the smart people like you tell us what we should buy. lets scrap the whole economy and just give people what they need. yeah, i mean a planned economy worked so well for the soviet union.
Don't fix the problem just add 10k bandaids, workarounds, and limitations to the current functionality so that you don't have to start over. If a product is fundamentally flawed. Why even try to fix it? I think decisions like this just leave companies open to be a punching bag for those companies that don't make the same mistake.
My thought would be me to patch any security holes in the mean time, then immediately start from scrach. If that isn't an option, then maybe it's time to get out of the browser business. I don't know, thats just my thoughts on the subject.
Q-what is boobs and bush? A-the White House, of course- what did you think?
Republican leadership = Idiocracy
You mention 13th floor, which leads to an interesting bit of trivia.
On older Macs(not sure how old it has to be, I know System 7.5.5 through 8.1 work, 9 may also), typing 13thfloor into the address bar of a browser(tested to work in MSIE 4.5 and Netscape Communicator 4.7) would redirect to www.apple.com
How's that for useless information?
You should use AdiumX on your Mac.
****Let me be the first to say... HAHAHAHAHAHA.. choose to use? No, we choose to use Mozilla, Opera, Firefox, and the like... but we didn't choose IE.****
stop patting yourself on the back.
if it wasnt for microsofts integration and ease of use, the internet would not be where it is today. the internet would be three text pages dedicated to bantering over bugs, religion, and worldwide anarchy.
thankfully, microsoft has enabled MY PARENTS to send email, buy plane tickets, and feel generally comfortable using a computer.
now that they feel barely comfortable using IE, you want to force them to try compiling the linux kernal using Gentoo?
Would you rather them use a shell account to access their email server?
microsoft is attacked from all sides, and few people give them credit. just take a step back from your arrogance and look at the greater good that has been accomplished.
...they implement at way to disable stylesheets in MSIE - too many dam pages are unreadable because of it.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
This creates an environment on the web browser that makes it easy to include flaw after flaw, because the developers who work on it (while totally decent), are not really good enough to encourage quality coding from the get go in such a manner that would prevent these kinds of things from occuring. ActiveX, while nice, is bloated and has far too many problems, and it is unecessary and not cross-browser compatible, along with many of the other things in IE that make it so powerful.
The simple solution is to resimplify IE, and remodularize it in such a way that there are bug fixes released for downloadable modules, and not the browser itself. There should be a default browser that doesn't have all of the BS that would enable some user to take over your computer. By disabling this, it would remove millions in cost from the people of the world, simply by not allowing as many viruses to get pushed around.
Therefore, I believe that the solution for Microsoft is simplification. That simple step would make certain items on the web incompatible for a while, but I think that the only time a commercial venture really needs to use ActiveX is when it is dealing with some for of subscribing end user or when programming in intranet type application.
Of course, windows won't do this because they are interested in aesthetics and ease of use for the end user, which also creates ease of use for the people who write viruses as well.
I wonder how many of these IE users are Opera users with Identify as MSIE 6.0 set. I just caught my self.....
I'd think that Opera would trick whatever is counting. Maybe someone else knows more.
Grrrrr... don't bother me, I'm thinking.
> When I drive my Subaru it doesn't pop-up ads for Ford.
When you drive your Subaru, the radio plays ads for Ford. And Chevy. And Kia, &c
> When I drink my Starbucks I don't get told that I could also be drinking Folgers.
When you go to the grociery store, you see House Blend next to #10 cans of Folgers.
> If your ignorant mother had a computer that had no web browser on it would she know a different way to get to the Internet, find an FTP site that has browsers for download, retrieve one, and install it?
Non-sequiter. Would anyone not familiar with the technology know how?
censorship is a form of noise, which actively seeks to drown out content with silence - Crash Culligan
How often to people give heated feedback to, for example, Mozilla/Firefox? I personally find the browser to slow and clunky in many ways, which is why I use IE and a popup blocker (Google Toolbar) rather than Mozilla, for sheer speed.
Only 18 months ago Mozilla was considered a poster child for a failed free software project. It was ridiculed frequently on this forum for being slow, buggy, etc... Then along comes Firefox. How short the collective memory is! The Mozilla developers fought through it all. They deserve our highest esteeme.
an ill wind that blows no good
For some reason, Firefox randomly screws up the table layout scheme used on Slashdot. IE on the other hand renders this site fine. This happens both on my laptop and on my work machine. Quite ironic that the only time I load IE is to read articles that laud non-MS browsers.
Micro$oft's monopoly plans our PC economy centrally. That's screwing us. That's why they keep the overwhelming majority of users, access to whose education they control for their own benefit, in the dark. Cut the political claptrap and get serious about the corporate monster dwelling in capitalism's darkest lair: monopoly.
--
make install -not war
Your right, things are going to change.
:)
Thats the EXACT reason MS put up the page on MSDN to warn/inform developers of the changes they will need to make
liqbase
It's really hard to beleive that Microsoft would seriously listen to any criticism when they STILL deliberately send broken CSS to competing browers. Visiting MSJVM support info in Opera with Opera or Mozilla as the user-agent gets the "negative left margin" style. Choose IE as user-agent and it's fine.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Let's look at Microsoft's recent issues:
1) They want to save $1 billion.
2) IE is getting slated by everyone because Mozilla are better products
3) They are getting fined by the EU for bundling IE anticompetitively
4) IE 7 is going to be too little too late
5) IE is horrible at suporting standards
They could solve all the above issues overnight with one cheap, simple and blindingly obvious move...
Spend 5 minutes compiling a version of Mozilla with a little 'e' in the corner instead of an 'm', search and replace 'bookmark'/'favourite' . Simply feed the results into software update and sack the whole IE team, all problems solved.
Seriously, there is NO reason for them to write a browser anymore - it's not as if anyone is paying for IE nowadays.
A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
``My mom certainly has no clue that there even IS anything other than IE to use. Most of our mothers probably don't even realize that IE is not "the Internet".''
And those people couldn't care less which browser they were using. So give them Firefox or Opera. I've even swapped people's Windows for Debian GNU/Linux, and only one of my victims complained - others have actually been happy.
The software I like is not for everyone, but Microsoft malware annoys non-geeks, too. If you think program X would be better for them, have them try it. Chances are they will agree with you and stick with the new product. If they have a good reason for preferring the original, don't argue, but give it back. Nobody gets hurt, but both sides get educated.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
All of those moving div layer type of schemes basically rely on the javascript "setInterval" function to do their magic. If you have a proxy that can modify page content, set it up to change "setInterval" to something like "dontsetInterval" or some such thing. Break the code, in other words. The thing then stays offscreen because the code to move it onscreen never gets run.
There's very few occasions in which I want setInterval to actually work, and I just whitelist those when I happen to run across them.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
We just rolled out a new accounting system with a nifty web interface which the staff and lawyers love.
.NET stuff on the client side that just don't work with Firefox. In addition we've set the IIS server it MUST run on to use integrated authentication so the users don't have to log in 50 times a day.
The problem?
It absolutely, positively requires IE to run. It makes direct calls to MSXML and does a shitload of
How do you migrate that kind of environment to OSS/FS?
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
Actually SP2 will be hell on my company's web interface. We supply order data for some 400+ trading partners, many use our web front end to pickup and send data.
I write B2B and B2C e-commerce, provisioning, planning, data mining, and portal websites for a living. We were very concerned about this very issue. Once I looked into it in greater detail I found it wasn't that bad...
At the end of the day only our B2B sites seem to be vastly affected; true, some of our B2C sites use popups and whatnot, but they are designed such that the sites are still fully usable without them. We do have a few B2B portal type sites that will not pass muster in SP2. The answer though is easy; add me to your trusted sites list.
No word yet on whether or not some additional configuration will be necessary; in some very early betas the Trusted Sites permission set worked like today. However, I've seen several MS releases in the past year where the release bits had more restrictive security permissions than the betas, so that might be the case here.
But you can always help your B2B customers implement a policy that sets the Trusted Sites permission set where it needs to be for your site to work...
I am disrespectful to dirt! Can you see that I am serious?!
If you like this joke, feel free to email a gmail invite.
Thanks.
One day two blondes walk into a perfume shop. The one blonde picks up a bottle of perfume that is titled "Viens Chez Moi."
The blonde asks the manager what it means, and the manager says it means, "Come to Me."
So the blonde smells the perfume and asks her friend, "Does this smell like come to you? Because it doesn't smell like come to me."
My email addy is: olivier_blasi [AT] email.com
Thanks again and I hope you enjoyed the joke
The laws of physics are on my side. YOU LOSE.
Luckily, Microsoft can account for nearly half of all security vulnerabilities in 2003 and they also hold the top 10 spots on isc.org for current vulnerabilites. With stats like this, there will be plenty of feedback for Mr. Hachamovitch to warm up with.
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
To see an example of this, go to http://www.tek-tips.com.
I remember this one, and it's annoying indeed!
If you use the Mozilla AdBlock extension, you can block the "http://www.tek-tips.com/jsource.js" that's responsible for this annoyance.
zWhat would an EWOULDBLOCK block, if an EWOULDBLOCK could block would? -- me
m$ creates a product...albeit a not solid one, which allows the user to interact with their pc's hardware.
the ultimate responsibility lies with the consumer.
it is afterall, their pc. it is their choice not to read about how to properly use and secure it and ultimately, they choose to remain uninformed about it's potential.
that's what's been missing from this equation...responsible computer ownership.
a person shouldn't expect to take a pc home, plug it in, and it does everything on its own...even if its capable of it.
they should learn how to use and update their security software, how to download and install third party software and they should take the time to read the agreements that come with the software that they are using.
my point is simply this...microsoft is responsible for some of the problems users experience but consumers are responsible for what happens on their machines.
and if they don't want to know...then perhaps they shouldn't have one.
Is it 5:30 yet?
Of COURSE the IE folks think that MS is the underdog. MS religionists, much like fundamentalist Christians (think Jack Chick), are under the impression that their group is being persecuted, and that they are somehow 'victims'. Christians far outnumber adherents of all other religions combined in the US, and at least one Christian holiday is a Federal holidays, yet morons like Chick still seem to believe that Christians in the US are a persecuted minority. Ditto with Microsoft... despite having a tremendous monopoly, and having had said monopoly for quite a long time, Microsoft people like to think they're the underdogs. They aren't!
Honey, I shrunk the Cygwin
Later, Rory
Never give any object more potential energy than you want it to have.
a WHOLE lot better than popups anyhow doesnt it?
And then, it would be really really easy (in moz at least) to determine what layers should be on top of what (z-index).... So, even if this would be doable, it would be much more less of an annoyance (wouldnt be able to pop anything up from a frame to anotherone that is not under their control...and so on.
NO SIG
Its not the ad people that place ads at /. but is /.
-Woof woof woof!
Ford makes Mecurys
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -Aldous Huxley
It didn't appear for me until I reloaded the page with javascript turned on.
thats a well constructed "argument". just make some random proclamations without any putting any reasons behind anything.
how does end user education have anything to do with microsoft as a monopoly?
When BG started MSN it was suppose to compete with a propreitary network against AOL and the internet. After one month, he changed his mind, and persued the internet. He made that infamous speech about turning the company 180. At that time, MSIE was not even around. He then "aquired" the rights from the other group that was doing a mosaic spin-off (had to laugh; bill would pay x cents / each browser sold; Never paid a penny; Dirty, but Brilliant). At the time, all of us building web sites were blocking MSIE by telling users to get a real browser (sound familiar). SO MSIE changed it's browser ID to match Netscape (mozilla at the time). It is the same strategy that is used in konqueror today.
But they were the underdog. Make no mistake about it.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
You just can't automatically redirect the user to that script. They have to click on the link to start the download. The page was clear about this if you actually bothered to read it. If the user clicks on the link then the browser assumes they wanted to download the file.
"The new behaviour will make it impossible to automatically pop up a file download dialog, rendering this type of download counter/anti-leech script usless."
If that were actually true (which it's not) it would break all web-based CVS/SVN repositories.
"Ever seen those "Your download should start in 5 seconds..." messages?"
All the sites have to do is tell the user to click the link instead of wait because the browser will block the automatic launching of the script.
If they want to force a delay they can use sessions to tell the script not to pass the file to the user until X amount of time and then use JavaScript to disable the link until X amount of time has passed. If a user disables JavaScript and clicks too soon, the file script can just show the user a "Your file isn't ready yet. If you had JavaScript enabled you'd know this." With a self referencing link and same JavaScript code set to however many seconds are left of the delay. The delay option is still there. It just has to be done differently.
Site owners can still count downloads if they want. They just have to use server side scripts only that don't interfer with the file being sent to the user.
Ben
Work Safe Porn
its raining outside but u dont buy ur girl an umbrella...why? it doesnt rain in the kitchen! opweirdisntit@yahoo.com
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"
When people use IE, they have chosen conveniance. They choose to use IE because they don't want to dick around with all the other possibilities. Unlike us hobbyists, they don't want to deal with anything of that sort. And convinience is basically Microsoft's largets goal/gain. Not security. They have consciously chosen not to educate themselves in their computer. Most people don't use IE with the expectation that it's the most secure choice. (Other than a generic naive 'everything is secure !')
Speaking of Rush, was I the only person who was completely freaked out when they learned the lead singer was male ? How the heck that wasn't a chick is beyond me. (May not be a sex joke, but it is a gender one. Close enough, no ? =])
--LordPixie
Hundreds of millions of people do use Windows, and they all get to choose. Whether or not they know it's possible. Really, I think the only thing for Microsoft to do that would make alternative browser makers happy would be to advertise alternative browsers.
On the other hand - we once had a secretary working for us who wasn't really altogether clued in to the intracacies of browser technology. When she complained that her computer was acting slowly, I discovered that she had several copies of both IE and Netscape open. When I asked her why, she said that the the link on her desktop that opened our internal web site opened Netscape. "I just use Internet Explorer when I want to look at the Internet." When I suggested that she try using only one browser, she had no idea what I meant.
Can you try to communicate without using analogies please?
They're mostly useful to hide information and create mis-understanding. Don't do that.
If you buy a Ford and the radio only plays The Ford Station and you need to get a gas tank adapter to use anything but Ford Gas do you think Ford might be held responsible when someone plays a song on The Ford Station that makes Ford Gas explode?
For some reason I am reminded of Brave New World.
#!/
From the MSDN article: "Internet Explorer will attempt to block any window opened automatically from script, with the exception of createPopup()"..
Uhm, no really.. "exception of createPopup"?? And "will attempt"? That sounds like fun..
Anyway, if their popupkiller really works I can't wait to see the return of the "Welcome to my webpage!!!!!!" javascript alerts / confirms, but this time containing ads..
Good now we are informed which parts of our malware is not working under sp2 so we can adopt it to sp2 before it really hits the market.
Does your Web site contain files with file extensions that do not match their Content-Type?
If your site serves files that are handled by mime-handlers, the file extensions on those files should correspond to the same ProgID as the mime-handler. If the Content-type ProgID for a given file does not match the file extension ProgID, Internet Explorer in XP SP2 may take the following actions: 1) the user may be prompted to download the file and 2) the file will not be executed in the extension-handler if it fails to execute in the mime-handler.
You can correct these mismatches by changing the content-type to match the file extension. Be sure this is true for your Web pages as well.
Exception: This change does not affect cases where a "content-disposition=attachment" header is sent. In those cases, the file name or extension suggested by the server is considered final and is not changed based on Multipurpose Internet Mail Extensions (MIME) sniffing.
So my ohp script that generates svg, that won't work anymore?
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
One word: .NET
Quack, quack.
When on their days-old SP2 upgrade guide, they list tags like and . Hel-lo? Ever hear of XHTML? It's case-sensitive according to the standards. I can understand the cost of migrating existing systems, but for any new things not to be completely standards-compliant -- especially from the company who controls the browser market -- is appalling.
"I know how people intentionally don't learn how to use computers effectively becuase they can always just bug someone like me when I come over for dinner about those annoying popups...."
To Quote Darl: "Yeah, so..."
- When you are sick, you're LAZY because you seek the help of a professional doctor.
- When your car breaks down, you're LAZY because you hire a mechanic to fix it.
- When that tornado rips your house down, you're lazy because you don't rebuild your house yourself - you call the contractors.
The simple truth is: Most people know what they know - but most people don't understand and don't WANT to understand how computers work. They are a TOOL for them, not a plaything or something to experiment with.
Did you ever stop to consider that the resaon why they call on you is because the TRUST you? Trust with personal data is a difficult thing.
Yes, I've done my share of helping others with their computer problems and yes, I fully expect that when I visit the relatives, I'll be cleaning up their computers, installing Moz, updating them, etc. But I CREATED that situation when I got them interested in the Internet in the first place.
Besides, if you're nice about it, chances are they can do something for you. Even if they can't, it still doesn't make them lazy for not being the experts you and I are.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
I wonder why nobody here has spoken up to say that Microsoft really was the underdog.
Think back in time. What was the computer world like when Microsoft started? It was dominated by big iron computers that cost a fortune and ran UNIX, VMS, and what have you.
Then IBM got this idea to start selling computers to home users. They got some el cheapo chips from Intel and had an operating system from some unknown bunch of noobs. Nothing that could nowhere near compete with the big guys, save for price.
Personal computers started taking off, and others jumped on the bandwagon. Now there was a choice between real IBM PCs and cheaper compatibles. All of them ran DOS, because Real operating systems wouldn't run on it.
PCs got faster, and Microsoft and IBM started to develop a more advanced OS, named OS/2. The Macintosh appeared, and it was far superior in terms of usability. IBM worked on a graphical shell for OS/2 (Presentation Manager), Microsoft worked on a shell for DOS (Windows). The first versions of Windows sucked worse than you can imagine. Mac OS and OS/2 got better and better, while DOS basically stood still.
Windows 3.0 changed many things. It actually worked, and caught on with the masses. Microsoft left OS/2, rebranding it to Windows NT. IBM continued to work on OS/2, and it blew both Windows and Mac OS out of the water in terms of capabilities, but lost to Mac OS in usability and to Windows in market dominance. Still, Microsoft continued to play the underdog...on the server.
Windows NT, being a bit too heavy for PCs, was aimed at the server market. UNIX, though good and more or less standard, was expensive. The hardware it ran on was expensive. NT was cheap, and ran on cheap hardware. It couldn't hope to compete with established systems in quality, though.
Now, Microsoft dominates the desktop, and has a strong position on the server side. Still, they are struggling to keep up with the rest of the world. Their software lacks security, and is generally not considered scalable (one Windows install is easy to administer, but what about 500?). Their browser is way behind. Their user interface is inflexible, and loses out against anything the Mac (or even KDE and GNOME) has to offer. Their software is known for its instability. Many of those problems have plagued other systems in their early days. Maybe Microsoft really is the underdog, still playing catch-up with the rest of them.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
Underdog is here? please. I knew Shoe Shine Boy. He was humble. And Loveable. And Microsoft, you are no Shoe Shine Boy! (I always liked Tenessee Tuxedo more anyway)
-- This void intentionally left null.
Well the google zeitgeist is still running stats from before the date 'everyone' including MSN started saying use firefox, not IE.
Lets see how many people listened.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
well, it is microsofts' responsibility afterall! well, not the part where the stoopid average joe doesnt update his stuff, cant blame good ol' bill for joe's misery. but yes definetley the part where people pay gobs of money to write something good and billy doesnt write good stuff. writing a GRAND "daddy" browser that is integrated with everything in the system, while there are doors and windows everywhere for everyone to come and peek is billy's fault. billy cant feign ignorance for that. surely he could have changed things as he proceeded with 95/me/2k/xp/2k3/..."longhorn" now ?
Maybe your underestimating your mother. I told my mother to consider using mozillia last week and within 20 minuets she called me back saying she got it. She's not a developer like me, she uses her compuetr for office work, all I had to tell her was to go to Mozilla.org.
/. readers are 1337
I think we need to get over this fear/belief that we
You insensitive clod, my poor mom barely understands what the widgets on the screen mean. She has to ask whether its ok to click on something because she doesn't know whether its a button, a tab, or a non-interactive image. She doesn't really grasp the concept of the world wide web fully, but she is starting to understand. I think we need to quit assuming that everyones' mom is 1337 like yours is.
To her benefit, my mom is the paranoid type who suspects that everything is some kind of virus, so she won't click on anything without confirming it is safe to do so.
#!/
...many bug reports go like "Your "#%#"%&#" program doesn't work!". Well formed bug reports with proper documentation are valuable, but it depends a lot on your userbase.
I've definately written pieces of code that I would categorize as "rotten, but sorta works for now" that I'd rather go back and rewrite if I get spare time, rather than digging through junk.
Of course, that might just be an indication that my programs are typically in the early 0.x stages... I suppose it gets more important as the project matures.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
popups in firefox courtesy of Aqua Teen Hunger Force
the reason to continue using internet explorer and not switch is because it's a target?
What they really should do is start all over, not build and patch the old Mosaic engine (it has served a full life, M$ should let it die.)
And build a new one on top of the LYNX engine. Or gecko, heaven forbid.
While we're talking about browsers, does anybody really know the difference between Internet Exploder and MSN Exploder? Does MSN Exploder just have more spyware somehow? Enquiring minds want to know.
---
posting as anonymous coward due to karma issues.
Parent post is dead on.
If you are not aware of it, Dean Edwards, from everything I've read, has been leading a fantastic project to fix a number of CSS issues with Internet Explorer and doing a fantastic job. His solution is accomplished via a script you include in your markup.
See the previous slashdot story: Making IE Standards Compliant for more information.
Above link redirects to the bathtub girl. I never saw her before - now I wish myself back in the good old days where I'd only heard about her
Check out my PHP Url Validator
IE cannot be removed easily... and the functions of rendering html previews in the explorer window cannot be removed (at least via wizards... there are ways to get rid of anything in windows) in fact, I used an html preview system to pager bomb a coworker after he had attempted to remove iexplore. I have overwritten the iexplore.exe and forced the self healing to choke and yet you can still create IExplore windows by typing a url in the location bar of any Explorer window.
You never really get rid of it unless you really know your registry keys and you're not to afraid of crash messages occasionally when an M$ Office component, Instant messaging application, or other assorted Visual Studio made-type apps desperately *needs* IExplore...
so, you are a computer expert. must be nice to be as rich as bill gates.
I have actually repaird a quad bike where the rear axle was so fouled up with gunk and baler twine that I had to chisel my way through to the hub nuts, cut them off, draw the hubs off the axle, and then cut the studs off the hub to get the wheels off...
And my old Citroen GSA, with its *huge* hubs (three studs on about a 9" spacing) and inboard brakes - often it's as easy just to undo the hub nut and pull the hub, wheel and all. There's no brake disc or caliper out at the wheel, which frightens the spotty 16-year-olds at the local Kwik-Fsck tyre and exhaust cheap-o-rama.
Ford makes a car, that if under certain conditions, explodes or the brakes fail, or the car suffers from sudden acceloration. Or perhaps the computer can be remote controlled to crash by some sort of exploit on the control system used by a remote control device? Suppose the car Ford makes is unsafe at any speed, burns a ton of gas, breaks down easily, and unless you are an Ace Mechanic or can take the car to a garage every other day, you cannot drive it. Imagine that the hood is welded shut and so is the trunk. Now would Ford be held accountable for any of those things?
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
They definitely the underdog when it comes to innovation, not to be confused with "Microsoft innovation"!
Are we so anti-Microsoft that we'll settle for clunkier software without complaint, just because it's not made by Microsoft?
Who's "settling"? Interesting bit of spin, there. Is any browser code static?
But despite that - the answer depends on one's view of the market leader, right?
Are we so anti-Walmart that we'll settle for higher prices without complaint (at other stores), just because they're not Walmart?
Certainly there are other pragmatic concerns when spending an employer's money (a 'free' browser can demand stunning ongoing costs!) but yeah, there is still a time and place for putting up with inconvenience and even extra expense if events seem to warrant it. The past and present actions of a DOJ-emasculating monopolist, whose valuation has considerable effect on the US economy, might concievably raise a sufficient level of personal disgust.
At its extreme, the PC fear of being viewed as anti-anything encourages people to use or buy what 'most everyone else is - sometimes despite clear drawbacks, and questionable values being exhibited by the maker of said market-leader product.
Anyway - sure, there are times where following one's conscience will result in the use of "clunkier" products. Making personal choices to do what one sees as "the right thing" is sometimes going to be inconvenient, or worse. That's an inevitable result of people actually thinking for themselves.
The "easier way" usually isn't.
<grrr>
Netscape was a one-hit-wonder company that got seduced by Sun's Java hype and missed the opportunity to compete effectively with MS. Since the principles made millions from what was essentially a college project, I don't have much sympathy for them. We should all be so lucky.
#1. "I just don't see why people bash those who support Microsoft."
#1-reply: I don't see anyone bashing anyone who has to support Microsoft PRODUCTS. Was that what you meant?
#2. "As an IT pro, it's IMPOSSIBLE for me to not be subjected to Microsoft's reign."
#2-reply: That seems to support #1-reply. You are complaining that people are "bashing" people who are forced to provide support for Microsoft products. But that is NOT the case.
#3. "All I'm saying is that Microsoft makes some decent programs and software."
#3-reply: Now you seem to have changed your position. Now you are an advocate of Microsoft the company.
#4. "People will always hate on them because they are the largest company in the industry and as a result, maintain control over lots of related aspects of that given industry."
#4-reply: And now you've gone COMPLETELY overboard. Now you're trying to cast this as "hate" instead of a discusssion of the security holes in IE. I can see why people here bash you with that attitude.
#5. "If Linux was used by 80% of users, then Linux would take all the flak and have the bulk of viruses and worms being developed targeting it."
#5-reply: So, in your professional opinion, there is no such thing as "security", only "marketshare". Apache is in use by more websites than IIS, yet your same "logic" does not apply to webserver software.
Here's some advice for the future.
A. Focus on the TECHNICAL discussion.
B. Do NOT claim to know that anyone who disagrees with you is doing so because of a specific EMOTION they are feeling.
C. Learn what the difference is between "security" and "marketshare".
Thank you and have a nice day.
and he's talking about people complaining about linux.
And Emmanuel Goldstein was created by Big Brother...
My great hope
is that all the companies
(and government agencies)
who created IE-only sites
SUFFER HORRIBLY
when the world moves to SP2
.sigs are for post^Hers.
People just keep saying over and over that the users are just as much fault for not educating themselves. There is a reason why Slashdot users know about IE, Adaware, Linux and the new OS X system. We like learning about this stuff. Should I be accused of being lazy because I don't know how to cross-stitch? No, that just doesn't interest me and I could live out my life happily not knowing it. Many people feel that way about computers and we shouldn't call them lazy for not drilling into technical things when they really have no interest to do so. If I buy a PC from any store, I get Windows and IE...done deal. People should not be blamed for not knowing about Firefox, Safari and other options like that. It is up to a business to support the public interest of the business and since Mozilla is distributing Firefox free, don't expect advertising. Therefore it seems like the necessary advertising for Firefox is word-of-mouth and that seems to fall on users. Since Firefox's main users are techies, it's fate rests on us telling our mom's, not Microsoft. My mom is afraid of computers; she's not going to download Firefox any more than I'm going to learn how to stitch with her.
noun.
1. A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason.
2. Extreme, irrational distrust of others.
It sure does work doesn't it Bill?
I give you +10 for the mental image of the browser fairy skipping across the world's desktops, occasionally battling with Clippy as it tries to modify the IE shortcut.
Minus two points for confusing conscience for conscious.
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
IE "engineers"? if that's not butchering the term i dont know what is.
"IE is a super powerful Web browser that hundreds of millions of people choose to use," Hachamovitch replied. "As long as they're using it, MS is going to keep making it better. As long as that many people use it, there will be bad people who try to take it down."
Microsoft doens't think people attack the browser to gain control of others' computers to make them do their bidding. They simply think people hack IE to take Microsoft down a peg. Now, I'm sure some people do attack IE for that reason, but most people who exploit security holes do it for their own malicious purposes.
Or get freebies, for that matter. No wonder the software industry is struggling, except for the company that manages to get its stuff bundled with new computers. I think retail stores like Fry's should be horrified and offer free computer literacy seminars where they show how to install a new program from the CD and how some are better or cheaper even though there is a bundled app in windows. Show how IE drowns in popups and tries to dial international phone# while Opera just displays the page normally.
Now if it was possible to show how to buy and download legal mp3s and VCD images, people just might get wheened off "free" stuff and move to "high quality, reasonable price" stuff. Or at least the best free stuff available.
You can use window.navigator.userAgent to detect if the browser connecting to your site is Internet Explorer in SP2.
If the user agent string contains "SV1", the browser connecting to your site is Internet Explorer in SP2.
Just to be mean, my user agent is now "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7; SV1) Gecko". Microsoft lose again!
Can't you just see Ballmer up on stage in red PJs and a blue cape that's way too long?
when Netscapes in this world appear
and break the laws that they should fear
and frighten all who see or hear
the cry goes up both far and near
for Underdog! Underdog! Underdog! Underdog!
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
You can have a really sucky product, but if it is better than the next best competitor then almost noone will switch.
Apple includes IE and Safari, made by Microsoft and Apple. But suddenly it's SOOOO strange that MS would include firefox. Apple's not going to include every browser, and Safari is pretty similar to Firefox, but at least there's links to it on the DL page for apple.
If I could rearrange the keyboard, I'd put U and I together.
I can think of a couple of ways to do it..
1. IFRAME's. Essentially, you have a DIV layer that you load some HTML into which you then move around or something. Well, if the DIV has an IFRAME in it, it can be pulling random image off a webserver.
2. Randomized javascript function which puts different HTML in the div layer depending on the phase of the moon or what have you.
However, this is kinda moot as the vast majority of ad banners are now controlled server side anyway. The page you see is generated on the fly with php or asp or some other scripting method, so it's a trivial task to have the page call advertising.php to include a different ad on every page call. Now they simply put the ad generation code into the div layer creator code instead of the page itself. Bang, done.
Blocking ads like this generally takes a bit more ingenuity than just looking at the URL, but it's not really all that difficult to do.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
I hope you embrace and extend your elitism in your day to day travels. Ask your car mechanic next time what he has for a computer and OS. If it isn't brand new and running XP, I hope you tell him to go fuck himself. Try it out on the cashiers at every store you go to. Try it on the waiter at your favorite restaurant. Try it on the next cop who pulls you over. Try it out on random people sitting next to you on the bus or train or plane or at the theater or at a concert. anyplace at all where you have to interact with people in meatspace, face to face. Everytime they have an answer which isn't "brand new and running XP", tell them to go "fuck themselves".
Oh, you aren't going to do that? Ya, we know, you're an elitist snotty little coward.
I bet you're good, though, real good, at childrens videogames, especially the violent ones.
We can safely assume that the client can map from file extension to media type for all media types that it supports for display. We can not safely assume that the server will do this mapping correctly. The server, we hope, doesn't have all the client-side helper apps installed. The server's file-extension to MIME-type conversion data is likely to be obsolete.
A well-made browser needs to look at the whole picture. First of all, you have the MIME type provided by the server. You trust this more if you know that the server runs on MacOS, and less if you know that it does not. Then you have the file extension and the file content (magic) itself.
Put that all together, giving greater weight to type-determination methods that give strong matches. For example, 'plain text' magic is weak while 'png image' magic is strong.
The parent post has information that is quite apparently unknown by most posters in this thread.
No, I didn't RTFA, i didn't read comments eaither.
Firefox
'Nuf said
DarkMantle I been bored, so I started a blog.
I choose to use IE for downloading updates to IE or windows ---- mainly because I get a blank page with google.
My browser tells me I need a plug-in from Quick-Time to be able to view some page. I go to quicktime and find that they want to sell me some new program instead of allowing my needed download to progress. I have no idea what plug-in to download and install.
McAfee tells me that my firewall (90 day trial on new computer) has expired and that I need to buy a new one to keep from having internet problems. Since I have never heard of a firewall, I think this is a name for part of the virus protection, and that it must be ordered to continue the virus protection. They tell me this everytime my computer starts up. How do I stop it? I decide to order the upgrade and find it cannot be done from my non-IE browser.
I've heard about Mozilla and would like to have it, but I don't know how to download (or download is a foreign word to me) and even if it is downloaded, I don't know how to unzip it and run it. I don't even know what unzip means on a computer. (I only know it comes in handy about 9:45 am after a bowl of cereal with milk, some juice and about three cups of coffee.)
My plumbing under the sink leaks, and there's all those fittings and S-curved pieces and all. I know I can find them at Home Depot and I guess with a little ingenuity, I can repair the leak.
I will call a plumber, because I don't know a trap from a reducer. You probably will tell me I'm too lazy to learn how to be a home plumber.
If you are reading this, you probably know what to do in each of my case studies (except the plumbing.
Next time you write a program or discuss what you think are the competence levels of your user, think about yourself as a plumber or a transmission mechanic, or even a research chemist. Are you too lazy to learn how to use the tools of the trade? Your choices are; 1. Learn the tools of the trade and make the repair. 2. Call a plumber. 3. let it continue to leak.
Last time I installed Win2K it added 4 crappy icons in a folder on my desktop. They were for AOL, Compuserve, Earthlink, and MSN or something like that. By even suggesting AOL they are implying that another browser option exists.
Even if this is no longer the case (no icons are installed), the fact that AOL (based on Netscape now, right?) is CURRENTLY installed in MILLIONS of homes, as you say, means people are already using another browser BY CHOICE. TELL ME that your mom hasn't heard of AOL. Oh please, tell me it's true!
Your argument of choice answers itself with itself. Please make your point?
I'm thinking about it, therefore I might be.
Netscape died mostly because they got FAT and ARROGANT. Microsoft even admitted in their memos that IE was FAR, FAR behind Netscape.
The only reason IE appeared "better" is because Netscape allowed themselves to go the way of Elvis--fat, tired, and burned-out. Just look at Netscape 4 who's only "innovation" was a damned "Shop" button. Meanwhile, IE slowly caught up.
Go back and read JWZ's account of the early pre-1.0 days at Netscape and you'll see a company setting itself up for a premature death--while JWZ was slaving over the Netscape code, his co-"workers" were busy roller-blading, building robots on work time, and photocopying their arses (ok, that was the Simpsons, but it's not far from reality). They set the standard of the lazy dot-bomb company with lots of employees that do essentially no work.
What are you suggesting? Maybe that Microsoft engineers had not ought to look at other browsers? Should they move forward blindly? Or is it that you are afraid they will take something they see and make it better? Isn't that what makes any one product more salable than another, because they did the same thing better? Perhaps they should not release a security update? Would that make you feel better if they just didn't do it? Change can be hard, we all know that, to bad we will have to change a few things, I know how all of us hate to see change and progress in our industry, of course MS embodies that, that's why we hate them so much. I am glad we stopped fixing things and change in the linux world or linux would be just like MS and we would have to hate that too! Come on! Let's apply the same set of rules and standards of judgement to everyone.
" As long as that many people use it, there will be bad people who try to take it down."
May i ask which IT community member would use the words "bad people" referencing hackers(black hat). He definitely is not one i would trust my IT business with.
The lunatic is in my head
How do you suppose the "file" utility works under Unix? The Psychic Friends' Network?
There are problems with both extensions and storing metadata in separate bits of the filesystem ("forks" in Mac OS). Extensions can get changed around, and of course we all know about foo.bmp.pif. Also, you *can't* tell Windows to always open files like README and CHANGELOG with Wordpad. These files don't have extensions, so Windows is utterly unable to classify them.
With writing metadata to the filesystem, you have a problem when something else accesses those files that doesn't know how to deal with the metadata. This was a problem for years when using a Unix server (with Samba and Netatalk) to access the same set of files; the Windows (or Unix) users would move around a file, the metadata wouldn't get moved around with it, and...ick.
I personally like the Unix way, which is not "remember what everything is", but "we can figure out what kind of file it is by looking at how the first part of it is written". Of course, there will be cases where the file is some obscure, unsupported type, written in an unusual way, etc., so I think a hybrid approach may be best.
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
If KDE won't run reasonably in 32MB of RAM, go ahead and install Window Maker or Fluxbox and use packages selected by Feather Linux. The extra RAM is worth purchasing and much cheaper than the kind of hardware you need to run XP.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I have to agree many end-users are dumb, but as a Computer Scientist we some times think too technical and less end-user. Many people that work for microsoft are very talented people. I am sorry to say it is the management within M$ that is the problem. Maybe it is a start with Service Pack 2 now but lets look at the end-user and standards many organizations put in place. IE for example is an abomination to web standerds not only it is seems to be completely unmantained as much as it should be but there are also many other problems wrong with IE. Back to the end-user (eg. my gf for example is not going to switch to fire or opera I tried!!! Sorry but people are used to it.) It is the responsibility of M$ to start getting on the ball with IE. On the other hand, I am happy with SP2 it will sting but that is how upgrades should be if they are good. Example I worked for 2 years in Networking and found that everytime we upgraded something would break if it was critical we would delay the upgrade to our production side of our networks and even then their can be problems. I am happy that m$ is seeing they have to balance end-user and security with this update ... may be there is some hope to see a standard compliant IE in the near future.
IE - java - activeX = Dillo - efficiancy
Good thing they don't charge a lot of money for it! It's "free" with your $300 purchase of an OS that has no spell checker. Ha, ha, ha.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I mean my php script ends in .php but sends svg code along with correct but now non-matching headers.( The php extension to the svg MIME headers - they won't match)
So looks like any script that generates a file oher than text/html and variants like an image from a php file, svg doc or etc, will no longer work?
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
phew!!!
They might have time for such a bold experiment if they were not so busy removing spyware. If they used a more productive platform such as KDE, IE might have tabbed browsing by next year.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
"listing everything that will be affected by the the updates to Internet Explorer in Service Pack 2. This will be particularly important to developers who use ActiveX controls, pop-up windows and file download counters in their websites..."
Like the trojan, spyware, and virus writers.
If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
I had to violate the DMCA and commit several other computer laws to get this patented list off a senior designer's Palm Pilot. Several free electrons died for it:
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
It is TOO LATE for MS to fix their browser, because they should have done this years ago before even starting to work on the hundreds of stupid little patches for so brutally specific hacks they almost had to be originated by the user itself. 3/4's of the world's largest web sites will now break with SP2, because anyone with an iota of web talent has learned to work around the shortcomings of current MS browsers. Just killing the ActiveX popup would have been more than enough to relieve 99% of users' woes.
I'm just pissed now that I'll be hacking HTML day and night when this thing hits prime time, because my breadwinner is on the line. I'd rather see all the ignoramuses flock to Mozilla Firefox, but since they're ignoramuses they probably never leave MSN unless their 12-year old script kiddie is present to create a bookmark for them. URLs are rocket science to the common luser.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
It's not like the average user can go to Fry's and buy from a wide selection of OSes. Sure they can buy a HP or a Compaq or some other hardware vender. But when they get the PC home it has windows and ie on it. Then the average computer user is also not the most technically apt lot either. once they get online and can read e-mail, play some games and generally browse the net that's it. The average user is too busy and disinterested to really care about what browser they use and what the implications are regarding security and reliability. It's only after the true windows experience, (blue screen, bog downs from spy/adware, lost work, or even ID theft) that they will spend the effort to find something better. Windows works well enough for most and despite the wide spread abuses, those directly affected are still a small percentage of the total population. because if its dominant position and default acceptance ie is in use by the vast and ignorant masses. Anyone who knows anything about buffer over runs and M$FT excellent track record with bug fixes especially with security holes.
The Mozilla Foundation doesn't sell product, and therefore falls outside of capitalistic competition. Internet Explorer is being dumped for free into the market, and only Opera is actually competing in the marketplace.
Moz & i.e. may compete for mindshare, but when there's no product to sell, marketshare doesn't exist. The only people competing for browser marketshare are Opera, because only Opera takes money for browser software.
If guns kill people, then CmdrTaco's keyboard misspells words.
I downloaded and installed Mozilla on a computer that was connected to the internet but without a functioning browser. (The luser in question (a girl--but I didn't get any sex out of it. damn) had fuxored her IE settings something fierce and it didn't recognize the functioning high-speed internet hookup.)
I did this by FTPing ftp.mozilla.org using the DOS Console. I had to manually switch the fucking transfer from ASCII to BINARY because it's too fucking primitive to autodetect filetype--but oh well! Simple networking knowledge saves the day!
Gee...
:) They just know how to introduce people to computers.
good to see someone get the real point of why Microsoft is doing so well.
Back when they started, software was sold in little plastic zip lock bags... they had real cardbord boxes
And nerds should thank them. computers would still cost $5000 if it weren't for the mass market.
I think some people just don't realize that progress marches on one way or another. Don't blame Microsoft for the fact that 95% of people dont' CARE about the details. To them, it is choice of a typewriter + file cabinet + trip to library --- or a PC running windows XP. They "live" in the "big picture" they don't know the whole canvas.
Trust me, if you are an expert in a few things, you are an idiot in a few things (parts of your life).
and 7 in the supreme court
Huh? Did Clarence Thomas and Ruth Bader Ginsberg finally kill each other Londo-and-G'Kar style after a massive BDSM orgy?
I'm glad to see that Mozilla is striving to mimic IE in every way: http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040709-0 25323-6615r.htm
Can ActiveX be made secure *AND* functional at the same time? I don't see how. Therefore, ActiveX does not contain vulnerabilities, it is one.
Research shows that 67% of those who use the term "research shows", are just making shit up.
MS doesn't seem to consider browsers to be "utilities", though.
aQazaQa
Anyone who enabled ActiveX controls when surfing the internet deserved to have his/her/its machine hijacked. (Note, use of the past tense, and not a conditional, is intentional).
Any so-called "developer" who actually puts an ActiveX control on a website deserves to lose all his customers. He obviously swallowed the Microsoft propaganda, that a web site should be designed for Microsoft Internet Explorer running on Windows because (of course) all other browsers and operating systems must be exterminated. Consequently his own business is being exterminated by his own actions. Justice at last?
the intent is to make it seem as if the observer is simply witnessing natural events. it's not. i'm pretty sure most of this public intra-softie communication is well scripted.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
I just want to see the story count go above 1000
BTW, I drive a 1990 Honda, but only 'cause it doesn't come with IE.
Um, nobody in business, in their right mind, would commit to something that wasn't finalized yet.
Plenty of companies have done this. It's a well-established way to influence (some might say usurp) the standards process by loading an implementation of an unusable, incomplete draft with enough additional (or even conflicting) features to make it useful, and serve the company's own ends (which may be as straightforward as time-to-market in the face of a slow standards process). One pertinent example is the x86 floating-point architecture, that was "standardized" on a draft, not final, version of IEEE 754. Practically any RISC processor has a more faithful implementation of the final standard, and one that is much more compatible with any of the other RISCs than with the x86.
In your Apple menu, you'll find a "Get New Software..." menu item. Selecting it brings up your (default, not necessarily Safari) browser, and shows you that listing. If you're interested, you can search by name or look by category.
I think you're going to have a hard time claiming it's hidden when there is a link to that region from the Apple Menu, which is ALWAYS VISIBLE.
Slashdot. It's Not For Common Sense
Glad it's not just me - wouldn't guess by all the hacks you see around, or sites that simply treat IE as if it were the actual standard. So what would it take to start a revolt?
.. and of course, wherever a person can get away with leaving the hacks out, that can be a place to suggest a standards compliant browser. Considering how many "flash required" sites I run into, it's not unreasonable.
Most paying clients won't want to hear "well, it works great or all the browsers except IE.." but maybe they'd like to know just how much they are paying to for the hacks and be nudged toward a more secure, standards complient broswer for themselves?
Still, the power of users, in numbers to large to imagine, to do stupid things I never counted on, still amazes me.
Yes, a common problem when making a thing completely foolproof is to underestimate the incredible ingenuity of complete fools.
So no, you don't get to blame Bush Sr. on all those dead Shiites. The entire world gets to take take the fall on not having the guts to do the right thing and finish the job.
I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie
By default Windows has Automatic Updates turned on.
And this is the feature you are talking about.
They are going to your computer and updating it.
It may not work but it is there and if Microsoft improves it to the level where your computer updates itself prior to catching a worm (or removes a worm and updates) they complete what you are requesting here.
They definitely have intent to address it.
OK, so IE is buggy, whats new? We geeks have known this for a LONG TIME and switched to the numerous alternatives ages ago. That the majority of the world uses another browser (IE - ptewey!) means that most viruses/hacks get written for and exploited for the masses. NOT US. When was the last time your precious box was taken over by malware? I know it hasn't happened to me in quite some time (years), but it happens to all my IE buddies from the Real World. But I am safe as houses in my little kingdom and I am happly not part of the majority. Thats what all of us geeks really are - not part of the majority. In almost anything. And we're happy and proud of it. PS The patch only seems to address WinXP, so I recommend the 'remove IE' article mentioned in another thread :)
I Fetched and anarchied my first browsers. But I'm old.
Sure, but only because it requires javascript to turn it on. What if, instead, they wrote it so it was on by default (mid-page) and required javascript to turn off?
The close link could take you to a new page when javascript is unavailable, otherwise use CSS to simply wipe it from the screen.
Rod Taylor
what an accomplishment.
OK, here is a reply to your article with a joke that involves sex. Pick me! Pick me!!
A 54-year-old accountant leaves a letter for his wife one evening which read: "Dear Wife, I am 54 years old, and by the time you get this letter I will be at the Grand Hotel with my beautiful and sexy eighteen year old secretary."
When he arrived at the hotel, there was a letter waiting for him that read as follows: "Dear Husband, I too am 54 years old, and by the time you receive this letter I will be at the Savoy Hotel with my eighteen year old toy boy. Because you are an accountant, you will surely appreciate that l8 goes into 54 many more times than 54 goes into 18."
It's da Bug Brother!
I just watch the damm movie, I just feeling it's super MS....
IE is the virus...
Opera has been around for several years. It's been pretty good since version 6 at least. Remember the browser wars? Netscape had a reasonable product back then too, and while it's gotten bloated over the years it still surfs just fine.
The change hasn't happened because there weren't alternatives until now, it's happened because over the last year or so, IE has become such a liability to the average user.
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
whoring for Gmail
geeky as it gets
Go grab those torrents.
I just wanted to respond to this one point. (So many other awesome posts covering the others.)
Until today, even with my installing Firefox on her PC, my wife didn't realize there was another option besides IE. You know what turned her??????
Our local newspaper headlined that the government was recommending the use of another browser than IE.
She was very worried coming to me after that article. Asking what we could do and how would she use the Internet without it??? I told her, hey my lady, already got you covered, check out your new Firefox install.
As a side note, I keep her machine patched with all the latest MS and IE patches, as well as having higher security settings, popup blocker, etc set on her IE.
Be well,
Tojosan
We, as tech geeks, have the moral decision on wether to help Microsoft (by ranting and explaining what the problems are and suggesting possible solutions) or keeping to ourselves about it. Do we want to help Microsoft fix their issues to become better (read: more dominant)? Or do we want to promote alternatives instead? The community needs to decide.
We've recently figured out how to use the monumentus problems that exist in IE to our advantage--even the US government sides with us. I, for one, wouldn't mind keeping that trend going to strenghten out position. Not because we "want to stick it to MS" but because we believe our products are better (free, open, technically) and because the Microsoft product is of a lower quality, license, etc.
Has anyone held a Mozilla InstallFest? Or an Opera one? Or a Internet Security Awareness seminar?
I have people walk up to me and say "Man, I get lots of pop up ads and having to run Ad-Aware twice a week to keep my computer barely running. What else can I do?" My response is to use a different browser instead of Internet Explorer. The response 75% of the time is "There's other browsers then Internet Explorer?" and the other 25% of the time is "I heard about that before but don't know what to use." People (read: general computing public) are starting to take notice the aging IE browser is causing them problems.
In my opinion, the time is now (literally right now, maybe before Windows XP SP2 comes out) to start public tooting the alternative browser (and to a lesser extent, alternative OS) in the public. IBM, Novell, SUSE, RedHat, Apple, Mozilla Foundation, Opera--all of these people should be throwing articles to the newswire about alternative browsers and how they switched their employees and how great it is now. Hell, I'm even considering writing up a short article and sending it to some local papers discussing my success with converting companies to alternative browsers just for some airplay. On a small scale, put up flyers at local WiFi hangouts with titles like "Free Fix for Pop-up windows?" and "Best Spyware Fix" to start with the somewhat techy computing public to raise awareness and give them URLs to look at.
(my little pitch for Mozilla) I think it's an excellent choice for stopping pop-ups because it's built-in to the browser. Installing external op-up blockers on IE is not a 100% foolproof scneraio and if you don't get all of them, your annoyance has not totally stopped. The mail client is good and basic, has junk mail feature if you take time to train it. And being based on the Netscape code (eveyone knows Netscape so I always mention that) it's compatible with just about everything and works well. Opera is good as well, but my main choice of Mozilla is it is free, in all senses of the word, and being based on Netscape, I'm familiar with it from back in the day, so I have more knowledge about files and menus right out of the box. Some new users find Opera's highly windowed and buttoned interface a bit confusing for basic browsing.
In any event, I think the next few weeks to a month until XP SP2 comes out will be (or should I say CAN BE) interesting times for our community. When XP XP2 comes out, it'll be much harder to argue for alternatives as a lot of the problems will be addressed. My guess is enough will be addressed that people who were worried about it before won't worry anymore and the need to explore alternatives will be gone. XP SP2 is slated to have a pop-up blocker--it going to be a tough sell when it comes out on that argument.
I hope for the best. I like the improvements that are coming for IE, it will help prevent spyway and viruses, etc. That is a good thing no matter what. But I hope we can take advantage of a typically-delayed Microsoft release to get ourselves out there a bit more.
(I apologize if I jump around too much, just woke up!)
-m
http://www.invisik.com
Just let IE die and make the world a better place.
I guess we know who is getting a 2.0 on their MSFT yearly review.
-- Manager Tom
If I remember how the Morlocks acted, they pretty much went topside, stole, and ate the Eloi.
I don't know if I could stomach a MSN employee.
Doesn't sound too tasty.
Gotta put 'em outta our misery some way.
Linux is actually converging to your supposedly non-existent operating system. You can:
- Run many Win32 binaries via wine
- Run many DOS binaries with dosemu
- Run proprietary UNIX binaries via iBCS
- Run Java binaries on a mostly-working JVM
- Run any PC OS with vmware, qemu, bochs
- Run some PowerPC binaries in qemu
The OSS community is clearly on its way to creating what you describe. I know not all of the above work fast or perfectly; neither did mozilla 3 years ago.
Anyway, your "native" distinction is a red herring. When x86 Linux can emulate PPC MacOSX in near-real time, Apple's hardware business will probably feel some heat.
.... don't get their knowledge from God (because it does not exist, flammage below please) but from many hours of hard work testing things and becoming an expert.
Not only that, but some of us prefer not to deal or use products from a company that consistently is engaged in immoral and illegal practices.
Many folks don't care bout corporate ethics and morals, I do and do not benefit companies that misbehave with my custom (even if the product they are peddling is free).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
It would have been illegal to do so.
At least one Bush new this.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Don't blame the user, blame the DOJ for not enforcing effective corrective measures, blame MS for continuing to treat security like a post-production add-on, blame MS for continuing to treat security like a public relations problem rther than a design problem, and last but not least blame the media for not covering any options than sit tight and wait for the next exiting service pack-patch.
What's worse? That billions are lost to design and production failures in a single company's product line or that the media does not cover other options?
Microsoft is going its jobs pretty well.
I don't think it is fair to blame them for the huge success.
The reality is that if Linux was easy to install on any hardware, provided wizard installations for every program and was problem free, my mom would be using it.
The fact that you need to know unix (ie: file permision, root user concept and much more) is enough to tell that this system id not done to be used by average people.Average people don't wnat to know about how works a computer, tehy just want it to work. period.
In Windows XP SP2 we have done much to reduce the opportunity for inadvertently installing software.
Who said anything about inadvertnetly installing?
Who knew, last week, what a BHO is? I didn't, it wasn't until the last exploit that I learnt about browser-help-objects.
Who knew tha Adobe Acrobat installs one? I didn't, until I ran the BHO scanner.
Up until last week, I would have happily attributes every IE crash to MS. Why not? didn't they srite the whole thing?
Well, yes, they did, but the IE you'r running may also be running code from any number of other sources. Any crash in any of THAT code MAKES MS LOOK BAD!
Video driver where moved from user (NT4) to kernel (W2K) code to make it run faster. Now, any flakey video driver can kill Windows.
I've had X die any number of times, but I've never blamed the kernel because I know they're seperate entities (I usually don't even blame X 'cos I know it's probably the video driver Im playing with).
Every time Windows crashes, from a flaky video driver or whatever reason, I blame MS (and when they started signing drivers I reached from my AFDB).
Looks like the market driven decisions of yesterday (more speed form the video drivers, more flexibility from IE etc.) are coming back to haunt MS now that the market is changing (i.e. now that they want security instead fo bells and whistles).
I think the most interesting thing about SP2 will be that it will show if the marketing people are finally being make to STFU and let the technical people make some decisions. Are they _REALLY_ willing to annoy millions of users by breaking all sorts of things for the sake fo security?
Are they willing to risk loosing market share in the short term in order to protect it in the long term? Let's fase it, if MS's security record doesn't improve then things look bleak for them (even DOHS is beating up on them!). But equally, they dare not allow even a short-term loss of market share for fear of a snowball effect.
Okay....we all know that Windows has big gaping security holes in it. But is it really their fault that scripters take advantage of the average idiot? When a box pops up that says "Install this...." and the user clicks it...its not Microsofts fault....what is Microsofts fault is shitty coding.
http://www.macinhack.com
If there is a Ford dealership close to my house and all I ever do is buy Fords, should Ford be held liable when all my cars fall apart?
Yes Ford should be held liable, otherwise you open the doors for fraud.
Do you have any idea about the history of the car industry? Car makers had to be forced to make safer cars by the government, not by consumers becoming rocket scientists to re manufacture their cars, or buy alternatives.
If uninformed people buy cars that explode, it is not evidence that consumers are in favor of exploding cars. And even if consumers wanted exploding cars, does that mean you should give it to them? Maybe next we can have flesh-eating computers, because after all, consumers want that, and our hands are tied.
It just goes to show that "normal people" are capable of navigating our arcane world. It might (heck, will) take a lot of trial and error, but the average Soccer Mom or Joe Six Pack can learn how to do this kind of stuff when properly motivated. To techies like us, that motivation is having fun. For those Netscape era parents, the motivation is having no other choice.
Microsoft offered a choice. An inferior one in many ways, but having the great benefit of appealing to human laziness. It is easier to keep using the defaults out of the box: use the default browser, keep the default settings, keep using MSN as the homepage. Surf the foot network or soft core p0rn and then get on with your life.
And now, Soccer Mom and Joe Six Pack are on the brink of having no choice again (with the exception of those weird Open Source zealots out there using their Leenoox and Moodzilla thingees). Ironic, aint it?
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
Federal holiday singular singular singular
Despite or put a hyphen between Microsoft and despite instead of three dots and a space. Who taught you to write?
D+
That was a typo. I typed that when I was half-asleep. Why in the hell would I randomly pluralize a word? Even the idiots who cant (sic) use's (sic) apostrophe's (sic) correctly' (sic) don't make that mistake.
Honey, I shrunk the Cygwin