Slashdot Mirror
Is Linux Dead?
TunkeyMicket writes "It appears MSNBC is reporting that Linux has failed as an operating system. By citing the large Linux hype as reason for Linux to be dominating the market, they draw the conclusion that the "open source" alternative has flopped as an operating system. They briefly mention the success of Linux in the server community, but really the article gives Linux as little credit as possible."
Go take a look at what most web servers on the net are running. Notice the big "MS" in front of NBC
...like we're gonna beleive a story like given the source: MSNBC
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
microsoft company shilling for microsoft? never ...
i am shocked...
Where am I gonna find a penguin shaped coffin?
MSNBC says 'Linux is dead'
;-)
/. says 'Linux r00l5'.
An exciting discussion to follow, I'm sure...
I mean, come on! It's fscking MSnbc. Did we really expect something like "Linux is actually everything it's cracked up to be... as a matter of fact, Microsoft, our parent company, might as well shut its doors; they're cooked."
...MSNBC also stated that Microsoft is actually a charity set up by Mother Teresa just before her death, Windows is more robust than UNIX and Bill Gates is the Messiah.
Sheesh.
Asikaa
Come in, twenty-seventy-seventy, your time is up.
Why is the article a surprise to anyone?
Jesus used to be my co-pilot, but we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him.
And in other news, MSNBC reports that apple smells like poop.
Aside from the IBM infrastructure commercials, Linux has received no advertising whatsoever. Word-of-mouth is good, but to reach millions, more work is needed in getting the word out in print, radio and TV.
Appealing to to pricing aspect would be a good first advertising angle.
I am the evil aardvark!
Damn, I guess that's why I could tel-net into my computer this morning huh?
From Zero to Hero... Starbuck Zero
Modeled after Apple's "Proudly going out of business for twenty-five years now.", I give you: "Almost dead for ten years now."
Stéphane "Alias" Gallay
Now, where did I put this witty quote?..
It amazes me that MSNBC would state that linux is dead. Local BBS systems are dead since the Internet. As an IT consultant I learned real quick that no OS dies. I still have to support an old DOS 3 machine currently. I hardly would call Linux dead.
-=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
I guess that since MSNBC has declared it dead, we had all better switch to Windows now. No sense in continuing to use Linux if it will just sit there and rot.
My other sig is an import.
What an absurd thing for a biased article to be written by microsoftnbc! If this is the case, what about .net? So far that has been hyped out the wazoo and has been a total failure! What about xp? XP sales have been slow and 'very' disappointing. Using their theory, anything that doesn't completely dominate is a total failure? That is laughable!
ryan
I don't think that is what the article was saying. It praised how well Linux was doing in the server market, taking on the older more established *NIX big boys. The only failure the article mentioned was how it has not make a significant impact on the desktop at home. Well Duh! When a company such as Microsoft has a monopoly, I think it is going to take more than just a few years to crack a hole in that shell.
Who is John Galt?
Ok, fist lets see where this story came from... it's M$NBC, last i heard, the M$ stood for Microsoft. Now, i may not be the smartest person here but i doubt it takes a genius to figure out that this is just more Windows propaganda
This message was brought to you by the death of 30 brain cells.
In other news, some news agency owned by some chess player playing black declared that white will loose.
Well, from what I've seen, it's more likely that Stephen King is dead than Linux.
"Linux was found dead in a dark New Orleans alleyway this morning. The police are not releasing any details at this time, but witnesses claim to have seen a thin man wearing glasses and messy hair entering a limousine near the area last night, carrying a solid gold baseball bat."
...
It gives props to Server based Linux installs, and states, like many others have, that desktop Linux still faces an uphill battle. Not really the flamebait of an article like /.'s headline would indicate.
Ack, where can I buy Windows XP???? I need to get this carcass of an OS off my system as soon as possible. I thank MSNBC for informing me about this. Otherwise I would have continued to use this dead OS.
bbh
Wait...MSnbc is reporting this?
Well we all know what MSNBC is fair and just
about reporting the news? That every cloud has a silver lining. That means whatever happens with this whole Linux thing, it's for the best. I mean, don't sit there with your hands in your pockets. It will get better! I still beleive in Linux. Steve Jobs does too!
There is no spork.
From previous articles, it appears that Walmart doesn't think so.
The title does not say "MS wish list" ;-)
Ranjeet See Apache 2.0 and Open Source Web Services on Amazon
if it includes a quote from HP: "Linux is becoming more and more mainstream everyday?"
Go read the article. It's actually pretty reasonable and well-balanced; the same can't be said of the /. summary.
obviously a microsoft owned news source is going to diss linux... especially considering the trouble that ms has faced over the years with the valid competition that linux has provided... can you say conspiracy? - look at it this way, msnbc is in my opinion a business persons news source - its watchers are the ones who actually know about the relevance that linux plays in the IT world. Saying stuff like linux is dead is a good way to get its watchers to start to think believe that, thus securing ms as the stable business oriented os in their so easily manipulated minds....
spend money here
ok, this is just stupid...
- colin
Seriously, who cares what he says..
I agree with him absolutely in his observations. Linux has zero share on the Desktop. Duh!!.. Isnt that we wanted anyway ?
Ask him to look in to the server market! Ask the Giants in the server market! Are their knees shaking at the prospect of losing their entire share to a bunch of revolutionary coders ? Absolutely!
What John W. Schoen of MSNBC did was take the age old "Linux doesnt have a share in the PC Market" and gave it a new spin.
I could see the intent of this article in the wake of Microsoft Tablet PC. M$ in their infinite wisdom needs to ensure that the millions of its users look at the Tablet PC as an alternative to using PCs around the house. Now that they have cornered them in to buying a license of XP, they want to tie them down with the latest and greatest "innovations" of all - a low end PC with a touch screen.
I seriously doubt whether Linus and the kernel group would stop development on the new kernel as of today.
Rapid Nirvana
my god, just when you think microsoft had stooped to its lowest level, they yet again amaze us! this is obviously just an MS FUD ploy; or else it's a left-over April Fool's Day joke. figures MS cowardly presents this on its own propoganda channel; too bad the NBC name & reputation has been brought into this. Just like when Microsoft tried to place FUD in the minds of corporate America with saying that Novell would end support for its NOS's (which Novell emphatically won a recindation from MS on that untruthful propoganda), MS attempts to unduly FUD us again. All I know is that I will never pay a dime again for another peice of MS OS/hardware/service; especially after these low-blows. MS really is just a pathetic organization. Infinately more slimy than even Rambus has been. Let's start a true Microsoft boycott here at our homes and workplace! Show Microsoft we're not taking it's b#llsh#t propoganda any more. MS stands for innovation alright, with all the FUD and propoganda that it conjures (innovates) up to never cease to amaze people and lower itself to depths of infinity!
New article on Linux.org! Linux is dominating the desktop arena by outselling M$ Winblowz XP on a landslide quarter.
- tristan
If linux has failed, you should prolly reboot and send any information on what processes were running, what your compile options and all to linus@linux.org
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
Did you hear the news? We've been defeated. Dang, I thought we were doing just fine. Well, I'm glad that I found out now and not years from now. I guess I can go back to my day job.
When submitting stories, I believe there is stated that Slashdot does not approve of subject lines that are alarmist. But they still go on posting alarmist stories appearently. The gist of the story I believe is that Linux is getting more popular but hasn't caught on when it comes to the desktop. Big news. The title is "So whatever happened to Linux?", not "Linux is dead".
This is poor journalism from Slashdot, not MSNBC.
Can corporate horn-blowing get any more blatant. Microsoft made this deal with NBC because it was cheaper than printing up their own press releases. Of all the people to write this piece of tripe, a freaking Sr. Producer! His job is specifically to keep NBC and Microsoft happy. This means: A) Make money. B) Say whatever MS and NBC want. This is just intolerable.
--
(sourceCode == freeSpeech)
It's Official - MSNBC Confirms - Linux Is Dying
One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered Linux community when MSNBC confirmed that Linux market share has not risen significantly in comparison to others, less than 5 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent MSNBC survey which plainly states that Linux has lost more market share to Windows, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. Linux is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent MCSE comprehensive networking test.
You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict Linux's future. The hand writing is on the wall: Linux faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for Linux because Linux is dying. Things are looking very bad for Linux. Red ink flows like a river of blood.
Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.
All major surveys show that Linux has steadily declined in market share. Linux is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If Linux is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. Linux continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, Linux is dead.
Fact: Linux is dying
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
So, we're switching most of the servers to Linux at my Day Job because it's a failure.
We're shifting our development to Java because there's no need for interopability.
Reading this guy's note, the reason why Linux has failed? Because it hasn't taken over the entire Desktop market.
Um...duh. Isn't there a whole trial about why you can't get Linux/BeOS/OS//2 in the marketplace today?
So Linux hasn't won the Desktop market. Maybe it will, maybe it never will. But last I checked, it's moving very well into the server marketplace. It's doing well in colleges. More companies are supporting it every day (and not just little nobodies - folks like Sun, IBM, HP, etc).
I'm patient. I personally use OS X for most of my desktop stuff (IMHO, the best Unix operating system I've worked with), and still rely on Linux on the server side.
Perhaps the whole Pallendrom-thing from MS will shift more companies over to Linux-based OS's for the desktop (hm...we can either spend money to register our custom made applications so they'll run with these new computers and Windows XP Stranglehold version, or switch our computers to Linux and spend the money in development. Hm....)
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
With some 27 percent of the market, Linux is now the second most popular operating system for servers, supplanting the decades-old operating system UNIX; Microsoft holds the top spot.
Say's who? Last time I polled sites I found around 60% using Apache. About 20% used IIS. While I'm not a professional statistician, I know I've seen similar numbers from more reliable sources.
Everything I live for is gone
Click here or here.
I think it would be obvious to anyone who read the article (instead of gasping at the MS in MSNBC) that its content was fair. Linux has been making inroads into the server market, but it continues to struggle in the desktop market.
I have not seen any evidence to indicate that Linux is making significant inroads into the home, and all the wishful thinking in the world isn't going to change that. The article does say that Linux is getting better (in terms of usability, compatability, etc), and I don't think anyone can dispute that either. It just ain't there yet.
I've been reading Slashdot for a while...this whole time, I thought it was *BSD that was dying...
:)
Or so many people at -1 keep saying, anyhow...
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
Isnt that a contradiction. Being dead and dominating the market at the same time.
My head hurts from scratching after this one.
Great Linux Site
Oh, and they're not biased at all, huh?
I really fail to see their argument. They ask "Whatever happened to Linux anyway?" But then they go on and say "But Linux software is getting better," and "Now Linux is becoming more mainstream every day." They seem to contradict themselves!
Fault loves the past, worry loves the future, but content enjoys the present.
> Why is the article a surprise to anyone?
Because it took so long for it to be published?
Not everything that can be measured matters; Not everything that matters can be measured.
I think we're all well aware that the MS in MSNBC stands for Microsoft. Those who didn't probably figured it out after the first 20 or so posts. You can all stop giving us this information now and return to the standard Microsoft bashing.
...and that's all there is to it.
From his article, I soaked in two points basic points.
Linux is dead because the huge Wall Street hype machine has died down, and Red Hat isn't making any money.
First, Red Hat != Linux. There is constant innovation and development in Linux, and while Red Hat is a significant force, they are not the whole.
Linux survived for 9 years before Wall Street dildoheads ever knew that it was the next big IPO craze.
Finally, Microsoft is terrified of Linux (which makes the article kind of interesting given the source), even more so today than ever. You can probably find an article on Slashdot on any given day on how Microsoft is trying to do something to kill open source: linking it to terrorism, embrace and extend, incompatible hardware standards, lobbying, etc.
In my direct work experience, the number of systems I deal with running Linux is increasing, not decreasing.
He based the article on three facts.
1) Red Hat's stock was doing poorly. Really? A tech stock doing poorly in the current market. Strange.
2) Linux hasn't invaded the home user market. Well, I guess Unix was a flop too. Everyone knows that OSes only come from Redmond.
3) Since it's Open Source and created by volunteers, it won't work. I won't even comment on that one.
Understand of course, that the author of this article is biased. But at the end of it, I thought I was reading an ad. He started clamoring on about Tablet PC and XP. I'm just glad to see unbiased reporting is still dead and unwell.
Contrast also with Apple.
Just because Linux gets low numbers of users, it's not the number but the derivative (rate of change) that you have to look at, in order to declare an operating system dead. By this logic, Linux is still kicking, but Windows is dead, since Windows is no longer really increasing in use (they still have sales, but they're almost all "upgrade" sales, hence the attempted change of license methods).
And, somebody please explain, HOW do you kill an open-source work? People like me will always tinker with it, because it's FUN.
Hardware, software, and blinking lights!
The article didn't say it was dead. They said it hasn't made a dent in the home market yet. For it to have failed it would have needed to be adopted and then abandoned and I didn't see where the article claimed that tons of people were dumping Linux.
They also plug MS products so it's definitely biased and more advertising for MS shrouded in a Linux article in an attempt to get geeks to read it.
I think the poster deserves to me marked as flamebait more than the MSNBC article. After all, who reads MSNBC tech news anyways?
In light of all these accounting scandals, thousands of layoffs and billions in retirement funds pissed away due to the Enron and Worldcom debacles, Arthur Andersen should take a page from MS's book and buy their *own* little piece of the NBC news machine to add their "unbiased" spin to everything. I can see the headlines already!
ArthurAndersenNBC: Arthur Andersen Assures Wall Street of Its Innocence in Recent Scandals
ArthurAndersenNBC: Poll Says Fortune 500 Execs Rate Andersen #1
In fact...we should also expect to see EnronNBC and WorldcomNBC pretty soon, too!
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
In other unbiased news ORCL-CBS has declared MSSQL untrustworthy, NOVEL-ABC has declared Windows 2000 server unstable, and LNX-FOX declared that Windows has no future on the desktop.
[End of diatribe. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...] - Larry Wall in Configure from the perl
"Still, Linux evangelists like Fedor say that, as long as new PCs come pre-loaded with Windows, the open source community faces an uphill battle spreading Linux beyond corporate IT departments into the home."
Maybe the Microsoft partnerships and service agreements that prohibited retailers from selling computers preinstalled with non-MS operating systems had something to do with it.
With some 27 percent of the market, Linux is now the second most popular operating system for servers, supplanting the decades-old operating system UNIX; Microsoft holds the top spot. (MSNBC is a Microsoft-NBC joint venture.)
I love how they actually outright say that the article was written by M$, I wonder what sort of propaganda they will come out with next.
I couldn't help but feel that when all the hype was going on that Linux wasn't quite ready just yet. People no doubt found it an interesting alternative as a desktop platform but didn't quite see the level of polish needed to convince them to make the switch. Now that Star/Open Office and KDE3 (and soon Gnome2) are out, we are starting to see a new generation of bigger and better apps. If the grass roots support for linux remains strong (and I'm sure it will- were a devoted bunch after all)... I'm sure there will be another swell of public interest as well. I think next time Linux will be in a better position to impress, woo, and conquer.
Emperor: Can it be done?
DV: Yes my master.
Blender And Linux Fan
From what I read, it said exactly the opposite of what the synopsis of the article read as. The article points out that the companies that boomed off it have fallen back, but that Linux as an operating system in the server realm is readily gaining steam. The only place it has failed is in the desktop / home environment, and there's no surprise there. First off, Microsoft has a huge foothold anyways. Without a given reason to change, people won't mess with just what works. If there's no reason to fix anything .. why?
I would point out that this article seemed more a ploy to hype the 'table PC' as they are talking about at the very end. It seems more a job to go 'well, ya know, they haven't made it easy at all to have a home PC. We're gonna'. And maybe sow a bit more of the trepidation of switching to Linux for people who don't know the real differences.
Created by Finish college student Linus Torvalds, and continually updated and improved by a loose confederation of programmers who aren't paid for their work, Linux is available without the steep licensing fees that come with commercially produced software.
... it seems IBM pays people to work on the Linux kernel, as we all know already.
Hmmmm
High on the list of headaches is incompatibilities with files created with Microsoft products like Word.
Eh? OpenOffice.org reads/writes Word/Excel docs perfectly. Aside from some bullet-point font issues, Powerpoint handles perfectly as well.
I know people have said MSNBC was good at cracking back at Microsoft, but the author doesn't seem to be going anything other than spraying the same ol' FUD we've all grown obvlivious to.
"More organs means more human." - Zim
First Windows, now Windows sales... When will they reboot the world?
Teenagers these days don't have as much sex as they want each other to think they do.
actually, that's exactly what the article says. the frontpage blurb is the usual /. overreaction.
That this article is written, published, and distributed by
:-)
Microsoft NBC? (MSNBC)
Not only that but the article is written by John Scheon, an MSNBC senior producer, and not a reporter?
I know in some of the newspapers in Canada (Southam papers in particular), that every once and a while an article will appear that supports the viewpoints and opinions of the head of the newspapers. As well, it is well known that many writers have been dismissed or demoted for writing articles contrary to the owner's opinions. (For example, the writer who was dismissed in Ottawa for saying that the current PM's decision to dismiss Paul Martin was bad.)
As well, you can begin to notice that the opinion page has been showing a more severe bias towards the owners opinions.
Now, I am not against the media, I am just annoyed when the owners of the media use it to portray their viewpoints to the public. I know for a fact that at least with the people I work with Linux is becoming more and more popular. As well, even with my less technically articulate friends and family Linux is starting to appear as an alternative. (All they need is a better installation procedure, since they have heard horror stories from other people about installation.)
I think this article belongs in the opinion section, and not the tech and science section. Anything that has lines like these:
"But adopters of Linux still face hurdles living in a Microsoft world."
"He says he doesn't see much point writing Linux applications for individual PC buyers."
"Microsoft and its hardware and software partners are hoping to usher in a whole new platform... "
is either an advertisement or an opinion piece to me.
Just like this comment is an opinion piece and not an attack.
~ kjrose
"Until recently, interacting with Linux was almost entirely text-driven -- much like Windows' precursor, DOS"
That's as stupid as saying : "Until recently, Microsoft didn't have any dedicated server os, only Windows 3.11"
I'll leave the discussion that NT *was* a "dedicated" server OS to the slashdot crowd (can you say "uptime" ?)
Is MSNBC sure this article is from 2002 ?
blaah !
...who helps small businesses upgrade to Linux.
Notice he said "upgrade"...
-twb
You have to remember MS in MSBBC stands for Microsoft. After IBM, is developing signifigant software for linux. I think this is nothing more than untrue gossip. Like the Drudge Reports on AOL. Drudge is run by Fox who completes with AOL.
Nowhere does it claim that Linux is dead. Basically what it says is that since all the big noise was made during the dot.com boom, Linux has been quietly growing in the server and geek markets, and is still improving rapidly, but hasn't yet broken into the home market. This, says the article, is largely because most PCs come with Windows preinstalled. Where exactly is the problem here?
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
I suppose some people will enjoy arguing whether MSNBC is spreading BillFUD, or is just completely clueless. Seems rather a waste of human potential though.
First of this comes from __MS__ NBC, notice the two words MS. So william is up to his old tricks again.
...an article in today's Jersualem Post details the failure of the Palestinian Authority.
This is my post. There are many others like it. If you don't like what you read here, go try one of the others.
Well if MSNBC says linux is dead I guess I'll have to go back to Windows. I guess this also means the millions of companies that have invested 0's of dollars in Linux are going to have to spend millions switching over to Windows because, you know, MSNBC said so.
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
A Linux-based open-source program called Evolution looks pretty much like a standard Windows desktop.
Or, maybe, it resembles an e-mail/groupware application a bit.
Little slip-ups like this show that the author just might not have even looked at Linux at all.
A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. -- William James
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Personally I think Linux will suceed on the server way before it ever suceeds on the desktop. I think in the future we'll see a 20% market share of Linux on the desktop - but it'll be many years before that realistically happens.
In short, it was over-hyped. Now is the time to be realistic and not fall into the same trap again. But writing it off, is a tad premature.
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
Enough said.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
No, no, that's Linux has not yet succeded as a Desktop OS. Just wait.
I read the summary then promptly read the MSNBC article. The summary and the article do not have anything in common. The article was fairly well balanced, while the /. summary was biased and drew faulty conclusions from the article. In the future it would help if the person submitting the article would read it first. That goes for the /. editors as well.
Slashdot them...
Slashdot them!!!
I have been running Linux almost exclusively for over five years. Sure it's not quite as streamlined on the desktop as MS, but it'll get there when Linux users decide that's what they want. I don't even run X, so I could not care less.
In another 30 years, when people are still saying "Linux is Dead", people still won't get it. But it'll be there and it'll be thriving. And you can tell your kids about what it was like when you were a kid and there was an OS monopoly.
The temptation everywhere here will be to write this article off as it comes from MSNBC (the article notes this itself). This is known as the genetic fallacy, so let's get over that angle right away. The article has some valid points.
First, it is true that as a commercial venture, Linux has largely been a failure - the problems of VA, RedHat, and many others simply cannot be ignored. But as many have pointed out, this doesn't mean Linux itself is dead at all.
Second, Linux still has not gained any major inroads in the personal computer world. Yes, I know WalMart sells Linux-able PCs, that many embedded devices run Linux, and many people use Linux on their PCs, but there still aren't many/any desktop PCs shipping with Linux.
The article mainly focuses on the commercial aspect of Linux, which as I have already mentioned, is a valid point. However, most people here know that Linux can be a useful desktop OS, does have a large following, and is excellent for embedded applications and servers.
The point? Take this article in stride, and take its criticisms to heart - Linux has failed in 10 years to make any strong inraods into the personal computer market, commercially speaking. If Linux hopes to ever make it past the server/embedded market, this should be a huge focus (and judging from projects like KDE and Gnome, that effort is well underway).
No, but one fucking big troll just farted.
-- james
I know this is a fantastically novel idea, but did anybody read the article instead of knee-jerking "OMG MSNBC IS GOING TO SUPPORT MS ALWAYS" ?
The first half the article praises Linux for being a low cost server solution that a LOT of companies are using. There is even a quote from a HP exec who says "Now Linux is becoming more mainstream every day."
The second half does go into the desktop area of Linux, which they say is lacking, and then it goes on to say it IS getting better with things such as Star Office and OpenOffice, but it still needs to overcome the problem of Windows being installed on pretty much every pre-built computer sold.
Nowhere in this article does it say anything about Linux being dead. It's more of a "What's Linux up to?"
I almost stopped reading at this quote:
/. editors purposely post this FUD just to get a kick out of all us geeks getting riled up!
"A Linux-based open-source program called Evolution looks pretty much like a standard Windows desktop"
A "technical" writer who doesn't distringuish between an email program and a desktop doesn't deserve his job. Sorry if I sound pissed, but this is a classic example of a guy who thinks he understands computing, but has never touched anything other than his Dell sitting at his office. Though the desktop computer market is probably most visible, it is only a SMALL part of the larger computer sector. I know I'm only preaching to the choir here, but it sure upsets me to read this crap. Sometimes I think the
Who said Freedom was Fair?
...should tell you all you need to know.
No one who cannot rejoice in the discovery of his own mistakes deserves to be called a scholar. -- Prof. Donald Foster
All I have to say is: Windows 3.1
The article claims that:
Linux is only for geeks and people who want servers (people who usually have money)
Linux is for the thrifty people who can't afford decent operating systems like Windows (and probably live in trailer parks)
Plus many other contradictory statements.
Look at it this way, if Linux is little, tiny, small, cut-rate, and not a threat to Microsoft, why do they waste their time attacking it?
...
I don't know if somebody switched links or something, but I must've read a different article than whoever submitted this. The article was actually right on track IMO.
It's hardly mentioning it as a failed operating system, rather saying "A recent survey of 800 companies in North America and Western Europe found that some 40 percent said they were either using or testing Linux, according to the research firm IDC. With some 27 percent of the market, Linux is now the second most popular operating system for servers, supplanting the decades-old operating system UNIX..."
It continues with more info, but mostly what we've all heard before...Linux faces an uphill battle in the desktop arena, does well in the server arena, etc.
Oh, wait. I'm sorry, I'm completely mistaken in this post. The article came from MSNBC, a "Microsoft-NBC joint venture". Therefore it must slam Linux at every possible turn. It's not possible that it actually might report information we'd agree with.
Get a grip people, jesus.
--mh
apparently. One sentance in the article states: "With sales of new PCs in their worst slump in decades.....". The mass market of PCs has barely gone for two decades. I sincerely doubt that current sales are less than, or even close to those of 20 years ago. What a gross over-exaggeration.
Dinomite.net
There goes the price of my frickin' Linux shares. It was the frickin' lack of management I tell you.
There's no such thing as... ...bad publicity. Thanks MSNBC!
(Load of psychological pseudo-theory omitted deliberately.)
Have the slashdot guys have sold their souls to the popularity God? They probably post articles like this just to start the chaos they know will surely follow.
I know anything that isn't explicity anti-MS is heresy, but here we go. . .
I don't see anywhere where he has said Linux is failed in the article. He's merely pointing out a fact that most of us know: Linux is fantastic for servers, but "not ready for prime time" when it comes to the broad-based desktop market. Like it or not, Linux is still harder to use than Windows for a huge percentage of the population. While I don't agree with his characterization of the command-line stuff as an "archane vocabulary," there is some merit to the point that a lot of people can't handle the command line. Overall, I find it a well-balanced article about facts: Redhat was pushing Linux as a replacement for Windows on everyone's home and office desk. It just hasn't reached that point. His point seems to be that it doesn't even NEED to reach that point because it's gaining so much ground in the server market.
I couldn't tell if you were experimenting with poor-man's cryogenics or looking for the orange sherbet.
Sure, this guy who is a reporter hasn't heard much about Linux lately. I'm not surprised. He's a reporter. I haven't heard much about the latest in print media, so it must be dead. That's my totally uninformed and ignorant conclusion of the state of the print media business.
Point is, this guy didn't do his research, his article is based off of the fact that he hasn't heard much about Linux lately. I've heard a lot about it, perhaps it is because I work in this industry? Perhaps it is because I stay on top of the latest news in my industry? Apparently he doesn't, that's fine, but what makes him think he should write an article about it?
... their OS is outperformed even by a DEAD Linux ;)
He saw some dirty arabs and fired. Too bad it was just some friendly kurds, BBC reporters and his fellow cowboys.
It's fairly obvious that this article is a Microsoft-funded troll. But there's something much more sinister going on here.
Microsoft's best defense against Linux these days is that it is un-American (or worse, an illegal violation of intellectual property rights) to use free software. This article seems to me to take for granted the idea that all software must cost money, no matter what. Hence, they focus on RedHat (who is currently losing money) as a representative of all Linux users. They also assume that Linux has failed simply because it hasn't taken over the desktop market completely.
Articles like this aren't dangerous because they declare Linux dead. Even my computer-illiterate friends can explain to me why no article on MSNBC will ever say good things about Linux (or Solaris, or OS X, or FreeBSD, or BeOS, or OS/2, etc). This article is dangerous because of the ideas it gets into people's heads. For example, that all production-quality software is commerical. Or that open source is an affront to capitalism. Or that open-source is insecure, or that it violates intellectual property rights (not in this article, but in other places).
The question is, how do you fight against such widespread assumptions?
When I saw this on the front page and went through to the comments, I steeled myself for a barrage of anti-Windows, anti-MS, pro-Linux ranting.
Instead I see people have read the article and have a different summary to the original poster, and there's a lot of good-natured jibes at the fact that this is MSNBC we're dealing with.
Personnaly, I'm shocked at the calm and reasoning response. Is this a sign of the apocolypse? Did 90% of the Slashdot readership get laid a few hours ago? Maybe they've all caught religion...
Maran
Sometimes (often!) I wish Slashdot let you moderate the articles and not just the posts; this one would have been (-1, Troll) very quickly.
I have a Dell Latitude CPx that I use for development of my opensource projects. Solaris support for laptops is extremly lacking and Windows would cost way to much considering the cost of the OS and development tools. After the initial install of Linux I had a whole development environment at my disposal for 0 cost. How can you beat that?
-- Thou hast strayed far from the path of the Avatar.
"It appears MSNBC is reporting that Linux has failed as an operating system. By citing the large Linux hype as reason for Linux to be dominating the market, they draw the conclusion that the "open source" alternative has flopped as an operating system. They briefly mention the success of Linux in the server community, but really the article gives Linux as little credit as possible."
Hmm... Looking at the article in my browser, I can't find the words "hype", "dead", "failed", or "flopped" anywhere in the article. In fact, the article has some rather positive statements about Linux's success as a server platform, and rather accurately describes the challenges Linux is facing as a home PC platform.
The concept of a "home PC" is likely to go away in the next few years anyway, replaced by a variety of devices, some of which already have embedded Linux (Tivo, for example). So I doubt you will find many companies trying to sell Linux as a home PC platform. Even Microsoft has acknowledged that this market doesn't have much of a future.
Part of the reason linux is moving slowly is that almost everyone has used windows. While those of us experienced with more reliable and open OS's may find this a reason to avoid windows in the future, it nonetheless makes managers comfortable. There are also umpteen trillion "certified" MCSE types out there, who are ostensibly capable of managing the microsoft systems. Linux certs are fairly rare -- which is unsurprising, because demand for them remains relatively low. It's a classic case of Microsoft having a 'Mindshare'.
That said, things are improving. The support of IBM and others and their initiatives is coating linux with the candy coating of acceptability. If large groups begin to adopt linux on the desktop with open office, we are then on the verge of a true potential transition. Desktop use will translate into server comfort.
Finally, it hasn't helped that the last milestone release, 2.4, was a colossal mess. My 2.0.x and 2.2.x boxes were totally, utterly rock solid as servers. I upgraded one to 2.4 -- and it is now an unreliable piece of crap. It fails with kernel panics at any time (albeit infrequently), and almost always dies ~45 days into uptime. Every box I ever tried to use ext3 on died a horrible death, and that didn't make me particularly happy. FreeBSD and I are now getting well acquainted.
Despite all this, Linux has continued to make inroads. And of course it has hype -- it has become, and remains, the primary alternative in the minds of IT people everywhere to the monopolists from Redmond. Since they are a multi-hundred-billion-dollar company, and are tied into every aspect of the industry, saying something might challenge them is a bit like suggesting something might shift the Earth off its orbit -- it will cause ubiquitous change. And Linux is hardly down and out. The sad thing is that venture capital is so dead. NOW is the time of opportunity for fresh linux companies to step up and replace microsoft in places that really want to keep their budgets down. A return to the boom days just means that hundreds of dollars of windows upgrades and office software and such is no longer a big deal...again. Get in there while the gettin's good, I say.
Before Napster, there was nothing like it. No killer P2P app.
It also allowed people to gain a "product", music files.
Unfortunately, Linux has competition in Windows whcih still runs a vast majority of desktops.
I am the evil aardvark!
Um... is it just me or do MSNBC reporters not keep up with regular news of major film studios converting and have converted many of their graphic workstations and rendering farms to Linux. Just to name a few, Final Fantasy was rendered in a Linux farm, Spirit was rendered in Linux, and Google still uses a Linux Beowulf cluster from what I last heard. And don't let us froget the numerous porn sites that have probablly the best uptimes running Linux and FreeBSD of the sorts. I'm sure I'm not the only one that will say this either. Prety crazy MSNBC....
However, Linux on the desktop has not been successful. That's the reality. "Mom and Dad" PC users - who make up a large demographic of typical consumers - are not using Linux on the desktop. Big corporations are not using Linux on the desktop. There are lots of reasons for all this, but in the end they boil down to:
Case in point: I am currently developing a strategy on replacing 23,000 OS/2 platforms in my company. I have 2 basic choices for these desktops - Linux and Windows. Both have pros and cons around cost, stability, app availability, support, etc. Even though could save us millions of $$$ in licensing costs alone, Linux will be an uphill climb given the perceived lack of maturity and support in the vendor market. Linux needs a big-ass corporation (like IBM or HP) to really drive the momentum into the desktop.
Otherwise, it feels like the OS/2 saga all over again....*sigh*
CrazyLegs
"Pork!!" said the Fish, and we all laughed.
Not sure one can compare closed-source sales driven software with open-source software. Sure, some folks (Redhat) might have a hard time of it with lack of sales. The true believers are not making decisions about developing and using Linux based solely on financial outlooks. Our need and want for good software tools is going to continue to drive the open source movement; regardless of the other 94% of the desktops are.
Good. Remeber; every word that comes out of the Microsoft camp is part of a strategy. They never ever say anything without a script.
Luck favors the prepared, darling.
In true Slashdot fashion, no one has read the article. I did, and it states only that Linux has not met with the success on the desktop that was predicted in the late 90's. It went on to say that though it has improved by leaps and bounds, it has had trouble overcoming a market where most PCs are shipped with a version of Windows pre-loaded. That's all it said. Though the title was misleading, the article did not belittle the achievements of Linux.
Do you want to remove linux?
No kidding.
/. community ever graded Linux's successes based on stock value? Most of us debated whether or not standard business models would even work with Open Source.
Do a quick Search > Find in This Page CTRL+F
(you're using Mozilla right?)
Can't find "fail?" That's because the article ISN'T saying that Linux has failed. In fact it discussed Linux's successes as being mild in real world business terms.
The entire first paragraph sets the tone of the discussion:
"But after attracting widespread attention and generating several moonshot initial public offerings during the tech boom, purveyors of Linux software and support have fallen back to earth -- along with their stocks."
So what? Who in the
"Linux is now the second most popular operating system for servers...Numbers like those have caught the attention of computer hardware makers. Last year...Linux server sales jumped by more than 50 percent to $400 million, with IBM leading the pack... Linux is becoming more mainstream every day."
Where the hell are you reading "Linux failed!"
Actually, it was a very mild article. For MSNBC to say ANYTHING favorable about Linux is amazing. No matter how small.
Really the only negative comments are with the desktop implementation:
"But Linux has hardly made a dent in the desktop and home user markets."
That's just the truth. Linux's chief failing is that there is no reason to convert most users' desktop to it. In a typical business environment (believe it or not, most businesses aren't computer-centric), Win9X handles everything better than Linux. In a world where 95% of computer apps are either MSWord or MSExcel, I can't give my boss any good reason to convert over to Linux.
(Because it's free?! Not really. Most computers are using "borrowed" copies of MS... liberal licensing interpretation as we call it. You can get all in a huff if you like about "piracy"... all I can say is welcome to the real world.)
There's no reason to knee jerk to this article... there is nothing in it that isn't either the truth or subject to perspective.
The article doesn't say that Linux is dead, nor does it criticize Linux particularly. The summary of this slashdot article is rather misleading, IMHO. I'd advise slashdotters to read the MSNBC article before posting. To be honest, it's just one of those say-not-very-much "where is Linux up to" type articles. But it's more positive about Linux than most such pieces.
Reality is defined by the maddest person in the room
do any of you expect that a company like MSNBC partially sponsored/owned/whatever by Microsoft will openly admit that linux is gaining popularity? Come on folks! :)
however, the important thing is that - Microsoft has made its first, big, noticeable step into the media. What's next,
Let us not forget that the media are those who forge a public opinion, and a public opinion can push a law or elect certain politics that -guess what?- are sponsored by the same sponsor of the media. And the DMCA is just the beginning.
Lobbying must be made illegal. But it's impossible because those who would make it illegal are those who benefit most of it. Cool, the dog has eaten his own tail.
Frustrating.
-- There are two kind of sysadmins: Paranoids and Losers. (adapted from D. Bach)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The Disney Channel (aka ABC) aired a 1 hour special about the magic of Lilo and Stitch last Friday.....
If you still doubt that big business owns the airwaves, you're silly!
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
Ah, MSNBC, who uncritically brought us Palladium.
To quote the ever-brilliant MSNBC: "A Linux-based open-source program called Evolution looks pretty much like a standard Windows desktop."
Do I need to say any more?
Is Linux dead?
Is OpenSource better?
Natalie Portman: Hot or Not?
Cowboy Neal?
Gee! M$(microsoft)NBC reporting that Linux is dead!
"There's a big surprise! I think I'm going to have a heart attack and die from not surprised"
(thank you Disney and Gilbert Godfreid for that quote)
They give a grudging nth of credit to Linux for the server market in spite of the fact that Linux running companies are on the rise. Can't hardly have a week go by without hearing at least one company that has embraced the Penguin for running the office.
They quote a sales drop of 8% in the market...a drop that I've seen in most of the computer industry...especially after 9/11.
And they make a big to-do of the fact that it isn't a home OS. No @#$% Sherlock. We Linux users bloody well know that. We in the IT field are *painfully* aware that the average home user is barely able to turn the computer on in the first place, much less be able to run Windows.
Getting one of those people to run Linux without a fully staffed and compentent IT department would be akin to asking a Lemure to handle the daily operation of a nuclear power plant.
We are aware of this and admit that Linux for the home may not happen for quite a while. But Dead? Not bloody likely.
Phoenix
Besides...since they're MSnbc...there may be the teensiest tiniest little smidgeon if bias i nthat reporting....but then again I'm cynical by nature
-- Wiccan Army, 13th Airborne Division "We will not fly silently into the night"
Not much farther after that I almost died:
Linux partisans point to some small victories: WalMart recently began selling a house brand PC at rock bottom prices -- available with Linux for the thriftiest PC buyers.
Excuse me! since when is Lindows = Linux?
From dictionary.com
If you ask me, the writer of this article is a partisan for MS, who does not properly research his topic given all the inaccurate info (ie- the Evolution comment, Lindows/Walmart, etc).
For the last time - it's BSD that's dead. Man, don't these guys read slashdot?
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
We all know we have a lot of work to do until "total world domination". But hell... who needs that. I'm happy with where Linux is right now. It does what I need it to do, and where it lacks, I'll just write my own patches. Does anyone here need more? Is there something you want what Linux can't do? -/ JK /-
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Linux is dead - Microsoft, June 2002.
Microsoft is dead - Linux, June 2010.
Source code is a lot like a parachute; it needs to be open in order to function properly.
However, I can't use Linux on the Desktop. I just can't. XFree86 with GNOME and KDE just doesn't cut the GUI mustard. That's not a bad thing. Just means the Linux Desktop folks are going to have to do more work...someone will get it right. When you think about it, a bunch of unpaid people scattered around the world actually built a consumer OS...for free, for anyone! Amazing progress.
Its not that people are afraid of a UNIX/UNIX-like OS for their desktop. Microsoft has been shoveling that FUD BS for the last six months. Mac OS X has done very well in its 1 1/2 year of existence in gaining market share. Linux on the Desktop folks ought to take a hard look at Aqua and Quartz and think if XFree86 and Window Managers are still the way to go for GUI on Linux. As the Marketing Department at Apple says, "Think Different". "Think Differently" for the grammatically anal.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
This headline totally misrepresents the article. The article is actually fairly positive about Linux as server, and there is little negitive said about linux as a desktop.
Read the article? Why? This is slashdot!
;)
Have you subscribed yet?
Don't forget what the MS in MSNBC stands for:
Micro$oft
While verifying this, I found thisin Business Week. Funny stuff!
- Bill
From the debian fortune program
Would it be acceptable to debian policy if we inserted a crontab by default into potato that emailed bill.gates@microsoft.com every morning with an email that read, "Don't worry, linux is a fad..."
"A Linux-based open-source program called Evolution looks pretty much like a standard Windows desktop. StarOffice and OpenOffice provide most key features offered by Microsoft Office, including a word processor, spreadsheet, and mail program."
Is this guy confused or what?
Makes me put a lot of faith in his understanding of the industry.
-jj-
This is what passes for real journalism nowadays. Most modern news organizations believe in a cause and will not run any story that somehow hurts the cause, even if the story is true and huge. They make up news and just run that, no matter the cause be it environmentalism, pro/anti government, pro/anti business, pro/anti affirmative action, and in this case pro-M$.
The article is so biased that it even states that WalMart selling Linux PCs is bad for the Linux cause.
very nasty explitives about M$ propiganda for a sig
Capitalism: unequal distribution of wealth
Socialism: equal distribution of poverty
Within the story, the consultant claims that "its for geeks". First off - read the definition of a geek - it is a circus performer that bites off the head of mice. If this guy's livelihood is based on upgrading businesses to Linux, why is he claiming its for "geeks" ? I think the proper term is still "nerd."
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Treating MSNBC as a legitimate news source about software is like treating the Taliban as a legitimate news source for women's rights. Let's get real here.
...because it doesn't deserve the comments or indeed the initial description that referred to it.
Sure, its on MSNBC so we take everything it says with a truckload of salt, but the bottom line is it does NOT say that Linux or any other open source OS is dead.
It simply states that it has not made the inroads into the desktop market that were predicted years ago. But then again, it mentions TabletPCs later in the article and Microsoft has been banging on about that idea in one form or another for ages (was it Windows for Pens? I cant remember...)
The fact is that Linux hasn't made the inroads into the desktop market that a lot of people would have liked. But that is not to say that it will not do so in the future, and the article gives no prediction either way.
Whilst the article did not exactly heap praise on Linux, it did not brand it as dead either. It is not the most stimulating or informative read in the world, but that is not to say that you shouldn't read it BEFORE passing judgement. It just makes you look more ignorant and more arrogant than Microsoft and their media monkeys.
Disclaimer: Yes I use Windoze, but I'm no Microsofty. Windoze still sucks, and I'm no keener on Bill's "big plan" than anyone else. I use it, because it lets me do what I need to do (like read bloody Office docs), but I still use Unix, Linux and *BSD for different things.
The worst thing that happened to Linux was the pre-bust notice it got in the press and all the insane IPOs that followed. The hype is dead.
_ _
That does not mean that Linux is not continuing to be deployed across the IT landscape. Will it quickly become a Windows-killer replacement for XP in end-user's homes? Hell no.
Does it mean that linux is useless on the desktop. Heck no! There are geeks that live primarily in an Unix world for development jobs, System Admin jobs and other IT positions that need a cheap *Nix desktop to work from. This is where linux with a large number of applications and stability shines on the desktop. To bad, that the linux distro companies have no clue about this. If this was not a viable way to make money then desktop X packages like Exceed would go out of business and Unix workstations made by HP and Sun would never be built.
As for the server outlook anytime someone needs an inexpensive machine running for a project critical task that does not require some oddball COTS product Linux will be considered. I know because I work for Software Development company and I see the uses everyday.
Linux is not dead. Windows is not dead. Mac is not dead. Hyperbole is alive and well and living at MSNBC and many other news organizations.
_______________________________________________
ACK
"But Linux software is getting better -- and now more closely mimics the Windows world ."
But doesn't the "Windows world" mimic the Mac world. And doesn't the Mac world mimic the Unix world.
And isn't linux a unix?
--=.=-- www.cyber2000.qc.ca
MSNBC:
Said Linux has made great strides in the server arena - TRUE
Said Linux has not made a noticable impact on the desktop market - TRUE
Said Linux user apps are improving - TRUE
Slasdot:
Said MSNBC reported Linux is dead - FALSE
Said Article gave Linux as little credit as possible - FALSE
Why are they asking what happened? Linux is just now finally getting support from OEMs, what the hell did they expect when all their time their parent company has been blocking any competiting OS from even being able to compete on the same ground as them.
So now Lindows, Mandrake, Redhat and others are getting OEM contracts and what the hell?! Now MSNBC decides to come out with an article about how Linux has failed right when it hits mainstream?
This reminds me of the BS Sony did to Sega, back when Dreamcast was a success, Sony would slowly take their developers away, and hype vaporware PS2 just to keep them from selling, then spread rumors about how DC would fail and not to buy it.
Its FUD. Microsoft is trying to keep Linux from going mainstream which Linux is just now starting to do, by talking about longhorn constantly, and manipulatnig the media.
Yeah tell them Linux has failed, and in the next article, in depth (hype) article on longhorn, and palladium, interviews with bill gates, etc.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Since Linux is "Dead" I call upon all users of Linux to power down their systems..
imagine that..
I personally don't think that any m$ software could handle the slack of a lot of the offline servers..
anyone agree?
The greatest right given is the right to be wrong...
The article itself was reasonable, fair, and pretty well-balanced. Reality is that Linux isn't a mainstream desktop platform right now - Windows is. Linux is improving and becoming viable as a desktop, and the article reflects that. It also pays more than lip service to Linux's strength in the server arena, and it talks about the Linux/open development model with only minimal oversimplification for the non-techie audience.
/. regulars say so.
I really wouldn't call it FUD at all. The only thing that I see in the article that's even near being a goof is how GUI's for Linux are a recent development. They've been around for years, though only recent versions of KDE and GNOME have become good enough to keep users almost entirely from the CLI.
The reality is that Linux is a great server OS, a great desktop OS for the hardcore techie, a barely acceptable OS for the mainstream desktop, and a thoroughly mediocre OS for the average home user. It's improving constantly in all these areas, but Linux won't be replacing Windows in the mainstream market anytime soon, if ever. No matter how many of we
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
No worries though. Open source is a revolution and it will continue build a place in the industry and people everyday lives. Flattering pieces didn't make OSS/Linux and hatchet jobs won't break it. End of story.
-- I am not a fanatic, I am a true believer.
We could have saved up to 70% on Term Life Insurance! Dammit!
;)
I can say that this popup is at the right place
Has to be the funniest thing I've ever read. Soon, MSNBC will be reporting that playstation 2 and Gamecube have failed as gaming systems.
--What, you ain't know about them country fried sessions?
Well if MS can fight with FUD then why can't we? (ps, the answer is something about us not being evil)
Science may someday discover what faith has always known.
Yet another crippling bombshell hit the beleaguered Linux community when recently MSNBC confirmed that Linux accounts for less than a fraction of 27 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of the latest Netcraft survey which plainly states that Linux has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. Linux is collapsing in complete disarray, as further exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.
You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict Linux's future. The hand writing is on the wall: Linux faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for Linux because Linux is dying. Things are looking very bad for Linux. As many of us are already aware, Linux continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood. Red Hat Linux is the most endangered of them all, having lost $4.8 million last quarter. The constant and unpleasant conflict between long time Linux advocates Linus Tordvalds and Richard Stallman only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any question doubt: Red Hat Linuxis continuing its slow downward spiral into darkness.
Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.
Debian leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of Debian. How many users of Slackware are there? Let's see. The number of Debian versus Slackware posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 Slackware users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of Slackware posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put Red Hat at about 80 percent of the Linux market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 Red Hat users. This is consistent with the number of Red Hat Usenet posts.
Due to the troubles of SCO, abysmal sales and so on, OpenServer went out of business and was taken over by Caldera who sell another troubled OS. Now Caldera is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.
All major surveys show that Linux has steadily declined in market share. Linux is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If Linux is to survive at all it will be among OS hobbyist dabblers. Linux continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, Linux is dead.
Fact: Linux is dead
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
While this article paints a pretty bleak picture of Linux, why should we care? Obviously the author doesn't know anything about it. Evolution is NOT a clone of the Windows desktop, and OpenOffice does NOT have an e-mail client.
And saying Linux means to "clone" the Windows environment... the nerve! I use it for precisely the opposite reason.
I think the county in Arizona has it right: refuse to do business with convicted monopolists, ie MS.
Since decade is plural, we can assume 2 or more decades, right? Which puts us back to at least 1982. Is this "journalist" actually trying to say that PC sales are lower than they were in 1982? I know the C-64 and the TRS-80 were popular machines, but surely any store that sold computers in 1982 and are still selling them today would testify that sales today are higher than they were in 1982.
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
Do I really need to remember you that MSNBC is a joint venture between GE and THE BEAST. It's not surprise Microsoft use it as a BrainWashing mechanism.
The story isn't too bad. It says a lot of the same things Linux advocates say, and I think it'll serve to increase interest. For example, it goes into moderate detail about the many financial advantages Linux provides, as well as points out the existance of "Linux Boot Camps," which provide training in migrating from w32 to Linux.
The biggest negative in the whole article is the title. It seems to me that the title is an excellent way to attract readers to the more Linux-advocate content.
Just my two cents.
What's this Submit thingy do?
I know it's been mentioned, but seriously, how much you wanna bet that some editor over at MSNBC said, "hey, we're low on hits this month. Get somebody to write an article that linux is dead and then get wind of it to Slashdot. That'll bump up the numbers."
Who said Freedom was Fair?
This article seems very well-balanced to me...a pro-linux advocate, and avowed Microsoft hater.
They make numerous positive statements about Linux, both in the server and desktop environments, e.g: citing a report that claimed 40% of 800 surveyed American and Western Eurpoean companies are either using or testing Linux.
Taco, take it easy on the picante' sauce, the temperature seems to be affecting your judgement.
Hey, I'll get modded down anyway, so what the fuck?
If you read the article, the slashdot headline is crap.
If you read MSNBC alot, like I do, you'll find:
1. It's a hell of a lot more responsible, journalism wise, then abcnews.
2. They are not shy about printing articles that put MS in a bad light.
Sections like letters to the editor (where they frequently publish letters from people who sharply disagree with them) and their Ombudsman (currently the position is unfilled, the last guy moved on after a year) used to publically evaluate their journalistic practices and comment or criticize them, by their own employee, has caused me to respect them a great deal.
Say what you like about MS, but MSNBC is a great news site.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Apologies: I posted this under a different topic, but I'll "cross-post" here because I feel quite strongly about this one:
:)
Joe Sixpack DOES NOT GIVE A FUCK about why Microsoft is "evil". He doesn't care that Linux/BSD is "free(dom)" in many ways. His computer cost him x dollars, and he doesn't care or realize that $100 or more of that is in Microsoft software.
"Linux/BSD is so much better!" we cry - but then when the new users come to us for help, we tell them to RTFM - and then laugh when they don't know what that acronym means. We deride them for not knowing how to use the CLI - "Gnome Sux, Evolution blowze, you luzers!"
Dependency issues (don't even start, Debian users - that install routine would send Joe screaming down the hallway to get his Windows CD), the sheer plethora of apps - yeah, I actually think sometimes this hurts BSD/Linux - KOffice, OpenOffice, AbiWord - which to use? "You're *free* to choose! You're not burdened by Microsoft any longer!" Blah, blah, blah. We espouse all of these nice little taglines, freedom of speech, choice, etc., bitch about the evil empire - but we're not making a fucking dent in the normal market.
"Windows is so unstable, so buggy, and it crashes so much!" *Bzzt* Try again. Newer PCs with Windows 2000 and XP are, in fact, quite stable. A well-maintained Windows 98SE box is also quite stable. Many Windows stability issues stem from poor 3rd-party code or cheap hardware.
Put shitty code or hardware on your Linux box and see how stable it is.
Users don't care that you can have 5 terminal sessions open, SSH to another box, etc. etc. etc. They want the web, email, chat, maybe a word processor or small office-style suite, MP3 playback, digital camera/scanner connectivity, and as little hassle as possible for this to work.
Lycoris Linux has a good idea - make it as similar to Windows as possible, limit the user's initial experience to prevent overload, and give them a comfortable, familiar environment.
Macs are easy - that's why many people choose them.
Windows is prevalent - "I use it at work/school", and it's what's on machines. Don't bludgeon people with your scorn and acronym soup. Help them, and they'll be able to help us.
"If there's hope, it lies in the proles..."
Its called, build hype for your product while spreading rumors and doubt about the competiting product.
Sony has done this against Sega and Nintendo.
Microsoft has done this before as well.
What you do is, you tell everyone you are coming out with a new product right when your competition is about to go mainstream. (PS2 hype begins when DC begain to sell more than 5 million systems)
Then you get articles printed about how your competitions product is doomed to fail, you pick it apart. While not everyone will believe the article, thousands of people will, which can turn to millions, which can kill the competiting product.
Linux luckily has a community and zealot strength behind it, if it were an ordinary company, Microsoft would have just put the final nail in the coffin,
People will be thinking
"should I get Longhorn or Linux? Well this article on MSNBC says Linux is dead, and Bill Gates was on TV last night in that interview saying good things about longhorn, I think I'll go with what I already have and get longhorn"
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I'm not sure what 'Linux is dead' is representative of though. Compared to what? I thought home networking was the next big thing. If that's true then you'll see MORE linux in home use not less. Anyone running basic LAN services or their own mail server is more than likely going to do it with an old PC and Linux. You don't need a desktop for that (unless you like to config stuff that way..) I'm not sure that someone would build an entire W2K machine with a legitimate licence just for file serving? Maybe they would, maybe I'm just cheap.
At any rate there a few things Linux is not good at:
AOLIM
Burning CD's
Playing popular game/entertainment titles.
Supporting the home Encyclopedia/Bartlett's
Supporting MS office email attachments
Any kind of demoware you get in the mail
Getting broadbad ISP support - AOL. Earthlink (oh you have Lunix? click.)
Of course it begs the question that if Linux COULD do all of that would it not become Windows anyway and lose the reliability, stability and low horsepower requirements that make you want to use it to begin with? It would become..... Apple?
Perhaps to avoid confusion we should say it was finished by a Finlandian graduate student. Or completed by a Finlandic graduate student. Or finalized by a Scandinavian graduate student. Or hammered out by a graduate student predisposed to Finnosity. Or, since it's now presumed dead, we can say its final death knell was struck by a mysterious, shadowy Finn.
ScienceSeeker.org
Don't believe the hype, especially the "Linux is Dead" hype.
Since when has Evolution been a window manager? And how can you even compare RedHat's losses to that of recent Microsoft losses. Every stock is dropping, it's called a recession. This guy's an idiot.
*dons russian accent* Propanganda
A Linux-based open-source program called Evolution looks pretty much like a standard Windows desktop.
It's nice to see that someone did their homework.
This article is blatenly biased, it's not even funny. He drops in facts, mixed with complete lies (...and continually updated and improved by a loose confederation of programmers who aren't paid for their work...). Ack!
Hmmmm gotta wonder how biased this article, gotta say the whole "we are owned and operated by Microsoft" might play into this propoganda.
As for Linux being dead? Sorry I hear of more and more people slowing moving to it. And hell WalMart just started selling Linux based PC's. I don't know exactly where Microsoft, I mean NBC gets there info, but they might want to re-examine the facts.
Hmm. The artical was published by MSMBC...
Makes you wonder about the origin of the acronym's first two letters, doesn't it?
Of course they would want to say something like this. They are owned by the Borg. It's just another case of Corporate owned news programs/channels who's job it is to promote their parent companies. No real suprises here...
Either that, or revise the title and the writeup so that it's actually correct. How many ads did you sell today?
when my mother asked about Linux and if I thought she should try it. At the time the Linux desktop was not ready for my mother. With all the hype, Linux hit the radar of the average home user before it was ready. Now the average home user remembers Linux as that operating system that we used to hear about during the dot.com fiasco. Hopefully this will give the desktop time to mature and users forget the hype until it is ready to take its place in the consumer market.
I agree with most of the other posters on this topic. This is really poor journalism, but not for the same reasons other people think.
As MSNBC is connected to Microsoft, they should, as an ethical news organisation, reveal this either in the article, or at the end.
All major news organisations do this, and for them to leave it out, they really opened themselves up for the type of claims of prejudice that they have been served tonight.
If the pattern goes 9am, 10am, 11am, why isn't noon 12am?
Listen I hate windows, I loathe Microsoft but I just can't stand these story headlines on Slashdot lately. It really makes this place look bad, when I saw the headline I thought well MSNBC is obviously trolling because of the crunch economy wise, a few higher ups must think it's time to rag on something to keep the money rolling or something; I dunno. Then I read the article; it's probably one of the more insightful articles I have read in a while and this headline does not do it justice. Points of pro's adn cons just as anyone would want with any other product, you can only expect the writer to know so much without becoming an expert; this is also a very unbiased piece. If this was a piece to bash Linux then it didn't say anything that wasn't true, infact it's more praise than not. Not only that but MSNBC does make a point to say that it's a Microsoft-NBC joint venture for what reason I don't know but then again some people have been living under rocks.
This whole headline thing makes slashdot look bad, it makes the people that recommend slashdot look bad. Instead of trying to become professional and taking an industry lead I still can't view slashdot than anything more than a hobby site and the bad thing is that I guess the editors think this will last forever. It won't; it just won't.
I understand journalism, sensationalism, I understand the readers of the site are the ones that submit the stories. I understand this; what I don't understand is how this blatant bashing of Microsoft helps anyone. It's as if we've started to play their game of blatant outright lying. I hate Microsoft and if it was up to me I'd probably throw each and every single employee into some type of chinese water torcher camp but this is just stupid. Please; stop it.
Lets continue to play with facts and not play their game of cat and mouse. We won't gain anything the way they play and it will only make us look like hypocrites.
With this troll, CmderTaco has incited 297 posts in the same amount of time. Could we have a new record holder on our hands? Time will tell.
Ok, first off, the MSNBC article never says "Linux is dead." The article is more about the failure of Linux to live up to its own hype (which is not a fabrication, but a solid fact.)
I agree with most of what the article said as far as Linux's position in the residential market. I believe that the truth of the matter is, as a quote in the article states "Linux is for geeks".
Sure, there is still a potential for Linux to become a major player in the home PC market, as long as the problem of 'user-friendlyness' is addressed from the users point of view and NOT the developers. Unfortunately, this has yet to happen, but I refuse to say it will never happen.
Another big boost may be given to the Linux xommunity when M$ starts it's leasing program. Personally I don't feel comfortable running leased software, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
Linux has come a long way from the Minix code manipulation it began as, but work still needs to be done before home users will embrace it with open arms...
Linux is dead.
LU
The king is dead ... long live the king!
Seriously (mind you, it's hard to be serious about something as absurd as linux being dead) we will at some future date replace linux with something even better ... but we'll still owe a debt of gratitude for what linux (and Linus) has let us achieve.
Maybe linux won't kill off Windows, but its replacement will.
Honestly, how could Linux compete against Windows in a desktop market. It's nothing like it. Look at the comparison:
- Windows is Costly
- Windows isn't stable
- Windows requires big computing power to display a mouse
- Windows requires lots of space
- Windows steals personal information
- Windows sells licenses your soul to Bill Gates.
Linux has nothing on Windows.
I run two server farms and have been asked to provide High Availability for them. I was also asked to do public nameserver and virtal hosting for nearly twenty corporate domains, not to mention another hundred-or-so portals. I was asked to provide failover and redundancy, Content Management, Source Code Control, Document Management, Workflows, LDAP, scheduling and reporting.
All on a budget less that the cost of a Sun 4500.
There was only one solution on the market: linux. I used the IPVS heartbeat + mon + fake + coda layout with Apache for virtual hosting and front-end, Weblogic for the java backend, Zope for my CMS / Document Management, daemontools for process monitoring, Checkpoint firewalls (not my choice mind you) and last but not least linux on every single machine in the farm(s). I have multiple NICs with bonded channels between the servers providing me with near-Gb Ethernet speeds between my data servers and hosts.
Linux took our server from from 100% M$ and literally constant system crashes and reboots to 100% (so-far) uptime except for scheduled outages AT&T is our telco and they only give us 99.96% uptime.
At least here, M$ is dead. We are evaluating linux on the desktop to see if we can use Wine with Lotus Notes and Office. If so then we might start switching desktops for some groups.
My $0.02 will always be worth more than your â0.02, so
John W. Schoen is the Senior Producer of MSNBC. Can we say "bias"?
"Quoting famous computer scientists out of context is the root of all evil (or at least most of it) in programming." - K
As usual, their whole editorial point is in the title. If you read any newspaper, you'll notice that the titles rarely describe accurately the content of the article.
If I understand properly, the newspaper EDITORS, i.e. the managers, have the final saying in the title (not the journalist/writer).
I believe the same thing happened here. The article isn't that much of a Linux bashing, and more a statement of the fact that Linux still hasn't made it to the home computer yet.
And CmdrTaco, as a great Editor-wanting-more-hits, also twisted the story to get a flashy title. Geesh...
The author even points out that Linux is being pushed more and more by 3rd party software vendors like Oracle. I think this article, more than anything else, should be taken as a wake-up call to all of the developers on here who want to see Linux prosper on the desktop. Linux (as in the kernel) has been ready for prime time for a while. It is being improved daily and with the release of 2.6 or 3.0 next year, will be well on the way to playing in the Big Iron Unix territory. IBM, Oracle, and now even Sybase realized that Linux could be the next big platform for pushing their software into new markets and stealing up some of the low-end from MSFT.
Sadly, GNU/Linux is years behind the Windows and MAC world in terms of desktop useability. No, I am not trying to start a flame war here. But let's think about Mom, Dad and the commercial software developer. Regardless of what ppl think about freedom of choice, there must be a standard desktop for Linux. Unfortunately, neither Gnome nor KDE can be this standard. Why not? As Sun as pointed out before, QT is not free for non-free software projects. Therefore, if we standardize on KDE software developers are going to have to pay to use QT to develop for linux. IDE kits are free on Windows and Mac, so this simply won't fly. Gnome on the other hand, is just a complete mess. It may be great for the techie, but just imagine trying to tell Mom or Dad to use it. I seriously doubt that would go well.
Anyway, the point is, if we want Linux on the desktop, we have to make it happen. Anyone here (hint to KDE developers) who hasn't taken a look at the UI of Mac OS X should. You just might realize that the desktop doesn't have to look like Windows in order to be useful.
MSNBC is now the *BSD version of Slashdot.
If it had come from any other news organization, I wouldn't have belived it...
Time travel is possible. We are quickly heading for 1984.
Before making an idiot of your self!
And in fact did any of you bother reading the whole thing or did you immediately begin attacking as soon as you saw the statement "Is Linux Dead?".
Just so you'll know, I run Linux on all of my desktop and server machines. I consider myself an opponent of Microsoft. But you guys really really need to bother going to read the article before you jump to conclusions. In fact it never once says anything bad about Linux directly. The whole article seems to be saying "ha ha we own the desktop so there!" in a very childish tone. They don't really bash Linux at all... On the other hand they do use phraseology like "the so-called 'open-source' movement" and statements about removing the burden of paying for software that would lead the unwitting to believe that they were...
Anyway, read before you bitch please? (especially whoever decided this story needed to be on the front page....)
-----------------------------------------
Remove the Greed which plagues mankind.
[Linux] Im not dead yet! Im getting Better! I feel fine! I think Ill go for a walk! I feel happy! I feel Happy! I feel Hap~*thunk*
no
He also mentioned that Open Source based companies like RHAT have seen big drops in their stock prices since last year.
He goes on to say, "Created by Finish college student Linus Torvalds...", incorrectly using "finish: to come to an end" instead of "Finnish: of, relating to, or characteristic of Finland" (see www.m-w.com). Not very impressive.
He also says that "94%" of the market goes to MS for desktop and laptops, "according to IDC". Hmmm... I couldn't find much information about this IDC research firm, but 94% sounds suspiciously like 100% minus 5% for the Macintosh. That can't be right... Oh, wait. Maybe they're talking about new PC's, which are bundled with an OS. What about dual-boot machines? What about that old machine that won't run MS anymore, but for which Linux has breathed new life? Since there are no license fees for Linux, how exactly do you track the number of installed users? It just doesn't add up.
I think this guy should be doing more research, and less writing.
Besides, the guy doesn't even know what he's talking about (from the article):
Oh my goodness, and it is from MSNBC.
Nothing to see here, move along.
-1 Troll, definetly.
Like this:
"At PC conventions like this one, Microsoft's Windows operating system still rules, with some 94 percent of the operating system market for desktops and laptop PCs, according to IDC. Despite its growing popularity among computer professionals, it's still not completely 'user friendly'."
Where is this guy? That's like me walking to SOME BUILDING SOMEHERE, and saying "At business like this one, X rules". It's one thing if there's a TV camera recording the event, you might know what kinds of business use 'X'.
It an opinion piece, with no real supporting facts, other than 'at conventions like this one'. It could be Rummage-O-Rama as far as we know..
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
When you work for a MS company I guess "close enough" is good enough. A couple of incorrect items:
Finnish is spelled with two "n"'s, not one.
Evolution looks like Oulook, not like the Windows desktop. That would be KDE or Gnome.
I don't recall seeing an email client in either OpenOffice 1.0 or StarOffice 6.0 (and I just installed StarOffice 6.0 this am). I really don't think you can count that thing in SO 5.2 as a real email client.
companies like IBM are contributing member of the Open Source community.
The number of Linux users grew from about 1,000 in 1992 to about 9 million in 1999, according to the Tower Group. We are in 2002.
IDC estimates that Linux ships on at least 25% of new servers operating system ships worldwide today.
Searching 2,073,418,204 web pages on Google(using linux servers), more than 50,700,000 web pages were found.
There are hundreds of known distributions.
There is a bunch of linux company on the stock market
You can have it for free, with more free powerful stuff.
It take less resources on your computer
3000% less chances of crashing then any Microsoft product
For over two years, Dell has positioned Linux as a Tier One operating system - available on our entire line of award-winning PowerEdge Servers, PowerApp Internet Appliance Servers, and select Precision Workstations.
From HP "HP understands the role open source technology plays in today's IT environment. End-to-end Linux solutions from HP allow companies to build always-on infrastructures with an open, stable foundation for the future.".
From IBM "Linux is a revolutionary Open Source platform that is stable, secure, scalable and powerful; offering today's businesses the flexibility to innovate for success"
Linux is the official OS for the Chineese government
Deutshe Bank is on Linux
NASA, Rolls-Royce, Boeing and many more are on Linux
Near 40% of connected computers connected on the Net are running Linux, including SlashDot.org
Linux works on different platforms (PDA's, PC's, MAC's SUN's, Alpha, Intel, Mips, Sparc,...)
There are festivals, parties and more just about Linux. Just imagine the Windows festival... pathetic
Microsoft Windows may be compared to the Titanic, but Linux is only the top of the iceberg.
I don't think Linux is a dead OS.
Yes!, um No!, um, I don't know.. Aaaaarrgghh!!!!!
My Journal
Those are the very same agreements that I mean. I don't know to what extent they exist right now, but they certainly allowed Microsoft to get quite a large market share in the desktop market.
Slashdot did not say that, but the submitter of the article did. Blaming Slashdot for that is like blaming your local newspaper for printing something said in an editorial. The words are in italics to let you know that someone else said them, and not CmdrTaco or anyone else.
Sometimes magazines and newspapers will print someone's comments to show how stupid they are. While I doubt this is the case here, you should be smart enough to point and laugh at the story submitter who sensationalized his submission in order to get it posted. Say what you want about the editors, but they didn't lay claim or support anything this guy said.
What?
I love the way they have tried to make the argument look balanced when all the time they are sly-ly having a dig.
"Linux is now the second most popular operating system for servers, supplanting the decades-old operating system UNIX; Microsoft holds the top spot."
Decades old UNIX sounds like a dig, and "MS holds the top spot" is them having to have the last word in an argument.
"Linux used to be just a bunch of geeks trying to change the industry," said Elizabeth Phillips
"It's for geeks," said Faber Fedor
These statments just seem to be there to reduce the credibility of Linux. While Elizabeth phillips says "Its becoming more mainstream" she fails to mention that this "bunch of geeks" did change the industry.
"Fedor walked a roomful of developers and IT managers through the basics -- and not so basics -- of converting to the Linux world."
Just ensure that we all know that Linux is MUCH harder to use than the wonderful windows OS.
"Until recently, interacting with Linux was almost entirely text-driven -- much like Windows' precursor, DOS."
Ooooh, they're getting good at this - now they're hinting at the suggestion that Linux lags behind where Microsoft has been before. Like you could even compare DOS to Linux...hah!!
"But Linux software is getting better -- and now more closely mimics the Windows world that the vast majority of PC users are accustomed to"
Yeah it mimics Windows...like Windows mimics a Mac I suppose...?
"Still, Linux evangelists like Fedor say that, as long as new PCs come pre-loaded with Windows, the open source community faces an uphill battle spreading Linux beyond corporate IT departments into the home"
Right we better pack up and go home now then I suppose...it all useless, you dont stand a chance. Remember - the art of propoganda is to try and cause confusion, uncertainty and loss of hope in the enemy,and that is exactly what an article like this does.
"And as Linux proponents continue to try to enlist desktop PC users, Microsoft is busy reinventing that desktop."
Yep looks like we're too late, MS is reinventing the desktop, while us lame Linux people are still working with those big ugly PCs..
Personally I think Linux is stronger than ever...all these once flaky open source projects are becoming real mature, and they're getting better every day. With stuff like GNOME, Mozilla, GIMP, GCC, Evolution, Apache, MySQL, PHP to name but a few we have world-class products. Every time I use Open Source software I get a little smirk, because its a 'sleeper' -- it will continue to get better and better, and there is NOTHING MS can do to stop that.
lets not forget what the MS in MSNBC stands for!!!
I sure hope that some of the nice things in the 2.6 kernel make it into 2.4, because a featuer freeze date of october 2002 has been decided.
so it looks like a couple of years before linux it a half decient system.
Don't get me wrong, i only use linux at home, but I have to check my hardware, take things appart to make sure there's a driver for the chipset. 2.4 isn't SMP reliable(read the 2.6 change log!!!)
The recient comments on modules show that the modules in 2.4 are in a hell of a state.
in 2 years time microsoft might have sorted out there act, and managed to convince people that there's no real alternitives.
I might let my mum use the 2.6 kernel, but for the next 2 years shell be using windows.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Gavitron_ZERO
I look to MSNBC for technology reporting about as much as I do for their political reporting, which is to say, not at all.
Amiga computers are used by Elvis on his island in the south pacific, and when the time is right he will return to challenge Bill McEwen to a duel to the death, quashing this AmigaOne nonsense.
Amiga 5000 with 64bit PCI and dual video slots! Quad G5's. And software that detects usage by SG, and self-destructs!
Elvis is the king.
well i though BSD was dead, but i managed to telnet in an kill the process holding evrything up.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The editors tactitly handed the submitter a soapbox. It is NOT like /. is at all obligated to accept all submissions -- they don't -- nor are they somehow barred from attaching comments, such as doubts as to the usefulness of the summary. In fact, they could let someone else submit with an actual, genuine, informative summary.
Instead, they handed the guy a flamethrower in full knowledge that a large percentage of the posters would be kneejerkers -- which brings in more hits and page views. And you suggest that they aren't responsible for that?
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
...you'd realize they were talking about it's lack of success on the desktop entirely. There were several quotes giving it high praise in the server arena.
... past the first paragraph?
This is just the same old "Linux is dominating the server market, progress on the desktop is slow, but it's getting better" story we've been seeing all year.
It's definitely not a "Linux is dead" story.
Make me aerodynamic in the evening air
Obviously, Taco is trolling here.
However, you can't honestly say that this article was well written. Sure it wasn't the worst piece of MSNBC trash that comes out but when you see sentences like this:
"Until recently, interacting with Linux was almost entirely text-driven -- much like Windows' precursor, DOS."
You have to wonder about the competency of these MSNBC "journalists".
And then the guy devotes four paragraphs at the end of his article basically hyping the work that MS has done on the tablet PC. Right, we all know that the tablet PC is going to save the PC industry cause MS has told us so.
1) Linux doesn't get viruses BECAUSE no one is writing viruses for linux. I know it's a tautology, but were Linux to take off, I think we'd see an interest from the script-kiddie development centers of the world. Linux doesn't have the critical mass to support a worldwide virus. No Outlook - no virus.
2) The worst element of the Web is interested in reaching the largest group possible. A lot of the rules simply don't apply to Linux users as long as they stay in the 1%. It's the same reason I secretly hope Mozilla never gets into popular use. As long as it stays a 1% browser, I can block images from ad servers and most of the web is ad-free for me. If everyone had Mozilla, more site would host ads locally or use Flash instead of images, and I'd be out of luck.
As long as there's a community of development and support, I'll be happy using Linux as a 1%-er.
The article is actually pretty balanced, though all of the info it dishes out is at this point pretty well established. Nothing new.
What I can't figure out is why "the author" thinks that open source isn't a real term. Apparently he thinks "open source" is still some grassroots movement not accepted by the "general public". What a "dumb a**".
As long as MS' systems have that megasilly open file (and directory!) locks for open files I have this to say any Unix bashing S-hole: kiss my buns.
What do they mean I can't update my web scripts while server is running? What the $%^# with having no way to rename directory - I don't care that some background task happens to have it as its current dir! That's just bullshit and no - I don't care about market-shares.
Right, and when I submit articles with the following head lines:
2001-10-05 16:20:38 Andrei Dmitriyevich Sakharov (features,enlightenment) (rejected)
2002-01-21 15:09:06 Slashdot censorship (yro,slashdot) (rejected)
2002-02-03 16:02:31 Is fetus a child? (articles,news) (rejected)
2002-06-18 22:31:59 Just paid for a 2 months Kuro5hin subscription (askslashdot,news) (rejected)
But articles with headlines like: "Is Linux Dead?", "Bill Gates Is The Devil", "All Hail To Red Hat" will be posted no problem.
So who rejects and accepts the articles?
That's it.
You can't handle the truth.
An MS owned news site reporting a silly story about linux, or a VA Linux owned news site posting a silly story about how silly the other news story is.
Why don't Taco and Gates just step outside and settle this like men?
It appears MSNBC is reporting that Windows has failed as an operating system. By citing the large Windows hype as reason for Windows to be dominating the market, they draw the conclusion that the "PC in every home" alternative has flopped as an operating system. They briefly mention the success of Windows in the "nobody got fired for buying IBM" community, but really the article gives Windows as little credit as possible.
Seems possible, doesn't it?
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
john.schoen@msnbc.com
It'd be great if he was slashdotted by all us "ghosts". M$ has lost more money in this dot.com bust than all the linux companies put together.
tcboo
no, linux is a unix clone/rewrite. thanks for playing.
I guess the most disturbing piece is that this is a news source that a great deal of people use to keep current. Saying something likde this, at least for me, throws a great deal of suspicion on the rest of their 'news'. If Wal-Mart restricts the music they sell to appeal to a more mainstream audience, why then, are they planning to sell new machines with Mandrake on them? Why would they put a dead OS on new machines? huh... My two cents..
And all I have to ask is how many peole read this article? It doesn't seem to be what the post suggests at all. Where are the editors that love to deny other stories in favor of stuff like this? Granted the last few paragraphs seem out fo place in this article but on the whole the piece did not seem to lack in an objective viewpoint. Who knows maybe I read the wrong article.
Great... now I have to play my whole mp3 collection backwards to hear all the damn hidden messages...
http://chrismetcalf.net
Wasn't the whole defense of the MS monopoly trial that Linux was a viable alternative to MS and therefore MS was not a monopoly???
::.. check out some Cell Phone Reviews
Interesting that an MS site is prepared to quote someone calling Linux an "upgrade".
I think the article is saying that Linux has not been successful in business. Depending on who you are, you may be sad or happy about that. Simple.
there was a deadline for Linux to be considered a success.
I also didn't realize that Evolution was "pretty much like a standard Windows desktop."
And apparently graphical == "better".
The kernel in it's current state surpasses the winNT-kernel's capabilities in most areas. For your mom and most other users it won't make a difference what kernel they use!
What's hampering Linux takeoff in the desktop area is actually two things, as we all know, concerning the GUI:
1. compatiblity (with the huge base of existing win32 applications)
2. user interface issues (it may look pretty but usability is a nightmare, starting with clipboard support)
The kernel doesn't make a difference (mostly) in the way that KDE or GNOME behave. They are quite advanced but not quite there - yet.
Aren't you supposed to say "charnel house" in there somewhere? Stick to the script already!
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
"A Linux-based open-source program called Evolution looks pretty much like a standard Windows desktop."
Hrmm, odd.. This morning when I opened Evolution it looked like a robust e-mail client
"StarOffice and OpenOffice provide most key features offered by Microsoft Office, including a word processor, spreadsheet, and mail program."
I'll bet that's news to Sun and OOo, last time I checked neither had any e-mail support
I get the impression John Schoen hasn't given the linux desktop any more than a one minute tour with a Microsoft bias in his pocket..
-- The only thing I can be absolutely sure of is that you are reading this.
I see how the impression was made now. The title of the piece is "So whatever happened to linux?" So this is the basis for getting people up in arms huh? The people who approve or reject articles really need to read the stuff before the post things like this. I really was anable to draw any of the conclusions drawn in the post even though I was looking to so that is pretty sad on both tacos and tunkeymickets part.
Truly the SlashDot summary is worse than the MSNBC article.
But the MSNBC article is riddled with factual inacuracies, slanted language, and selective omissions.
"Small software makers like Lindows are trying to help desktop users bridge that divide."
Small? Relative to what? MS? GM and CocaCola are small compared to MS!
"A Linux-based open-source program called Evolution looks pretty much like a standard Windows desktop."
What on earth does Evolution have to do with the desktop? Other than being made by the folks at GNOME?
"WalMart recently began selling a house brand PC at rock bottom prices -- available with Linux for the thriftiest PC buyers."
Read Cheap. It's an old FUD, that linux users are cheap, and wont spend money. If that's true go talk to the folks at Ximian who get monthly subscriptions, just for better connection speeds (and of corse StarOffice!). Or about SlashDot subscribers. Truth is that Linux users (curently) arent' cheap, they are just very educated, and know what not to waste their money on. Give them a product worth paying for and they WILL pay for it.
(of course that meens producing quality product and such, most of the corporate world seems to be of the notion that if you advertise something enough the sheeple will buy it)
"Home users are cheap," he said. "At $49.95, you're going to have to sell a whole lot of (copies) to make it in the market."
Totaly out of context. This has as much to do with Windows as it does with Linux. Home users don't have 3 grand to blow on an acounting package, but last I checked Intuit was doing OK.
"The Linux operating system, and other "open source" alternatives written by devoted bands of volunteer programmers, would be available to anyone for the cost of a download. But today, Windows is still running on the vast majority of PCs. So what happened?"
So what is OS X?
Nah, no one uses Mac...
I would rather be ashes than dust!
The article is peppered with subtle jabs at Linux. For example, this gem:
/. too.
"Until recently, interacting with Linux was almost entirely text-driven -- much like Windows' precursor, DOS. So converting meant learning an arcane vocabulary of computerese to give the PC even the simplest commands."
That's some good crack they've got over there in MSNBC land. Information technology journalism inevitably sucks. It's all either lies or damned lies. That goes for
Way to shoot yourself in the foot, dumbass. I'll bet that gets you *lots* of consumer interest right there. Or maybe that's a subtle twist of the knife by MSNBC. Grr.
Computers in general were just for geeks 20 years ago. Well, geeks, and businesses that wanted to manage information they didn't even know they had in ways they didn't even know were possible. Now, you can't get away from the things - much as you might want to.
I don't know about any of you folks, but I'm getting sick of the dismissive connotations of "geek." Maybe I'm just a little sensative, but it seems to me that the geek mindset has made more lasting, permanent contributions to the state of the everyday world in general than any other clique - curiousity, tenacatity, a ravenous hunger to know how things work and to make them better for anyone who cares.
Caveman geeks made the wheel.
GMFTatsujin
Microsoft holds the top spot for the simple reason that you need dozens if not hundreds of NT machines to serve even a moderately-sized site. I've had the fun chore of moving a large website from a broken NT server farm to a single Linux or UNIX machine.
Zero tolerance equals zero intelligence
A quick search for linux, windows, and open source at msnbc reveals plenty of links that are anti-MS or pro-open source.
w .msnbc.com/news/770299.aspn ews/752115.aspa spw ww.msnbc.com/news/743635.asp
http://www.msnbc.com/news/751496.asp
http://ww
http://www.msnbc.com/
http://www.msnbc.com/news/739406.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/747455.asp
http://
It's a little simple-minded to think that just because MS is part of MS-NBC that their journalistic integrity is out the window and biases will be in every article. It's also more than a little hypocritical to be pointing fingers while reading Slashdot, which is probably the most biased news source on the net (it *is* supposed to be *News* for Nerds right?).
In order to compound the retardation, it seems like hardly anyone read the article. He's talking entirely about linux on the desktop, and more specifically the fact that linux on the desktop has not caught on.
He cites the fact that linux is playing catch-up with applications as the main reason: "But Linux software is getting better -- and now more closely mimics the Windows world that the vast majority of PC users are accustomed to." He continues by giving examples of other great OSS for linux and how it is worthy to compete with MS products. He also explains the problems with MS' proprietary formats, and how app developers have an uphill battle. He never said linux is dead. He never even said linux on the desktop as dead. It's not that I agree with the guy on all points, but it's hardly the biased tripe people are making it out to be.
I think the only bias is with slashdot. The slant that was given to this story by the submitter, relayed by slashdot, and supported by the replies I read here is pretty stupid, and frankly is getting old. This is the kind of crap that brands the OSS community with the term 'zealot'.
YHBT. YHL. HAND.
Thats like actually believing a story posted on Linux Weekly News (http://www.lwn.net) about Microsoft going bust or somthing - Microsoft partly owns MSNBC so they are bound to start spreading the old FUD onto them at some point or other!
"Hey! Unless this is a nude love-in, get the hell off my property!!"
But what about what Ransom Love said in his recent /. interview?
Every Linux provider has spent far more on promoting Linux than they have ever received.
Millions of dollars have been spent in recruiting applications, advertising, and tradeshows to promote Linux
The actual development cost of producing a product is only about 20-30%; marketing, sales and support constitute the majority.
Surely a big important man like Love couldn't be WRONG about somthing like this? </sarcasim>
Sigs are out of style, so I'm not going to use one...oh wait..
"Dead" in this case means that there's little point of differentiation so why not go with the choice that will offer you fewer headaches?
When the Amiga was dying a painful death in the early 1990s (and, yes, I know, it isn't completely dead in some corners), developers could have been focusing on making interesting and distinctive applications and games. Instead, there was a lot of angst about the PC being mainstream and consoles having superior games. The result was that developers kept trying to clone things already available on other systems, and the Amiga ended up looking even more derivative and sad. But many Amiga owners didn't see it that way. They thought "Wow! Look! My Amiga can play a clone of some old game just as well as a PC can!."
Developers for Linux have spent much time and effort trying to catch up to what Microsoft developed years ago. I know, Microsoft didn't invent those things, but that's not the issue. So now we have people all excited about KDE and various open office suites, and it just looks like yesterday's news, and they _still_ don't feel as polished as what you get with Windows 2000. And then there are the people who like to say you don't need desktop environments, just use bash, and that you don't need an office suite, just use Emacs, but somehow that isn't compelling to most people, even most developers.
The bottom line is that Windows and Linux are two flavors of the same thing. Why get all idealistic and force yourself to use The Gimp instead of Photoshop? There's no reason to. Misguided idealism doesn't count. But if Linux really *were* something drastically and radically better than Windows, and not just in a hard to defined techie sense, then that would be a different story.
MICROSOFT hmmmm. Na, couldn't be...
It's just pining for the fiords.
Lately, a lot of news organizations have been taking heat for "repackaging" press releases as hard news. This article strikes me as being along those lines... a producer probably saw a Microsoft press release and decided that it would make an easy story.
Microsoft's really been hitting the FUD machine wrt UNIX lately. On several news sites, I've noticed a joint Microsoft/UNISYS ad depicting "painted into a corner" with a window nearby, proclaiming "We have your way out." I'm a professional UNIX systems administrator, and I can't think of any company I've ever worked for who felt "painted into a corner" by UNIX. With Windows, sure, but not UNIX. Still, this "big lie" is probably effective for upper management, who won't think critically and will ask the IT staff why it's still using those dead end UNIX boxes.
The real gist of the article seems to be that Linux isn't a desktop OS. That's old news. Technically, "Linux" doesn't even include a GUI; it relies upon XFree86, developed by a seperate group, which is itself an implementation of another project (the X Windows System). That doesn't even provide the GUI, but the toolbox needed to display bitmaps -- you need a window manager for that. If you went to buy a car and found that Ford would sell you the chassis, but you'd have to get the dashboard seperately from Visteon and the gauges for the dashboard from ITT... and there was no guarantee they'd all fit without some modification... wouldn't you go buy from someone else? Well, OK, but what if it was your mother buying the car?
As it stands today, Linux is mostly a back-room OS, and an embedded OS. How many people who wouldn't install Linux on their personal computer use it happily every day on their TiVo?
The meta-FUD here is "UNIX isn't a viable desktop OS." Until a few years ago, this was true. The traditional model of X Windows plus a window manager plus GUI toolkits plus programs is a mess, loveable only by UNIX nerds... and the occasional scientist who puts up with it to get at the computing horsepower. Today, the world's biggest UNIX vendor is Apple, with Mac OS X. It's got a real GUI, which passes the Mom Test. It can be used without the command line.
Perhaps Microsoft's real fear is that Linux is a gateway drug. Without a major revolution in its user interface, Linux won't take over the desktop from Microsoft... but it does serve as a no-cost introduction to UNIX. If more people find that UNIX is more stable and more powerful than Microsoft, they might start looking for a UNIX that can be used as a desktop. You get tired of Windows. You try Linux, and like it, but get tired of wrestling with [Star|Open|K]Office. You look around for something that is UNIX and will run Microsoft Office, and Photoshop, and Quicken... and find OS X. It even connects so nicely to those Linux mail and web servers at your ISP...
90% of all websites run on opensource software. These are mostly the so-called LAP servers. Linux-Apache-PHP
/. or Hotmail :) running on Win2K.
I can't imagine a page like
That requires power and stability which MS can't yet over.
There were a lot of truths to the article. Linux is for geeks, and that's why I like it. That's why it will never be popular.
I didn't really see too much bashing in the article, but I guess it depends on your perspective. If your a bussiness person you might see some negatives in that article, "Home users are cheap." which is a truth.
I think it's time to finally put this myth to rest. The myth goes something like:
Linux is too hard for the average person to use and therefor it hasn't cut into Microsoft's marketshare.
If that logic were indeed the reason why Linux wasn't cutting into Microsoft's share, it would seem quite reasonable that apple should have long ago started cutting a big hole in Microsoft market share. Guess what! They haven't, and it's not because of the fundamental qualities of their operating system.
There are a lot of factors that keeps competing market share to a minimum. Since 90+% of the market runs windows it is not worth the effort involved for most developers to develop ports for Linux (except in the server market where Linux owns enough market share to make it valuable to put their resources there).
Furthermore, the market share figures are somewhat obscured by the nature of Linux. I buy a computer and it comes with Windows pre-installed, so chalk one more computer up to the Windows camp. Then I get it home, I download a Linux ISO, and install that instead. So how does that figure in? What if I go buy a copy of some knock off RedHat clone for $2 at a hamfest and install it? Is that counted into Linux market share?
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Now on to the critisizing of the article... Big deal if linux hasn't taken a huge stronghold in the personal computer market - who is suprised?
mix_master_mike
vafrous
Actually, the article, if fully read, is very fair. If you skim through it, it looks unfair. And the title "Whatever Happened to Linux" is a bit misleading as well...
MSNBC's had that happen before , especially during the antitrust trial. The headlines would be something like "Microsoft found not guilty", while the actual article itself would say "Microsoft found guilty".
"Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
MSNBC announced today that add revenues soared today when they posted a story on Linux. "Page views soared as a result of traffic driven from a tech website called slahdot.org", gasped an un-named source at MSNBC. "We're going to triple our advertising rates for any story that mentions Linux". At Microsoft's Redmond bunker, an employee was overheard telling his smiling superior "see, I told you we could make money from Linux".
who can't spell Finnish?
My other sig is extremely clever...
I can't understand why Slashdot articles engage in the same mindless obfuscation as their Microsoft counterparts. If we love Linux so much, why do we need to play Penguin Scare every time someone random says something that isn't even as bad as we'd like to think?
The first sentence of the article is "Linux hasn't gone away." So if the one-sentence *MSNBC* answer to the question "Is Linux dead?" is "Linux hasn't gone away," why are we even bothering to ask?
What a waste of time. Let's raise our hackles about something useful for a change, instead of mindlessly defending Linux from articles that aren't even attacking it, just because the letters MS appear. At least, let's laugh at the FUD implied in quotes like "adopters of Linux still face hurdles living in a Microsoft world." It's only a Microsoft world in their minds, folks. We know better.
Taco is just churning the pot on a slow day. You can see the watermark, can't you? T --- R --- O --- L --- L
I really never noticed it before. It fascinates me how MSNBC constantly reminds us that they are partly owned by Microsoft. It seems to be in every story that contains the word "Microsoft". Is it a disclaimer? Or an sublimital advertisement?
Coderz 4 Life
Lets flood that bitch inbox with hate mail... cortesy of slashdots geeks.... Have a nice day :)
The JZA
I think that MS has a monopoly on a concept that may well be outmoded in a few years. With Linux so widely available, the movement could well be towards diskless clients, which could make the desktop the sole paradigm of Linux/Unix, especially for small businesses.
Dawn of the Dead
In order to submit a letter to an editor, you need an editor. Reading this headline and comment on /. then reading the article is proof positive there is none (editors) to be found around here.
The original article was actually Linux positive.
And the poor sod that wrote it are now unindated with hate mail from L-User's across the globe.
A shame, and very bad for linux advocacy.
Be was the best-engineered desktop OS out there. It's main failure was that while it was beautifully engineered, it needed a lot more software. This is a problem that opening it up could solve. New development environments and tools will make it a joy to work with.
I still love Linux because it is my favorite *NIX, and I think it's irresponsible to use anything but *NIX on a server.
When OpenBeOS is ready to go, it will be one hell of an OS. I wonder if it can count on the support of the *NIX snobs? Maybe Be's dream-deferred might actually be supported by the geek community: "UNIX on the server, Be on the desktop!"
"Thank you, God, for your healing gift of religion."
The MSNBC headline "So whatever happened to Linux?" _could_ be read to imply Linux is among the missing-in-action, or it could be read quite differently. Anyway, the article itself is pretty well-balanced and accurate about the big picture: Linux is doing quite well in the server market, not so well on the desktop, but there's hope even there. (It also gets a lot of details wrong - but news services always do...)
The slashdot headline & first sentence are utterly inaccurate - the article definitely doesn't say Linux is dead or failed.
So I guess I have to let you in on a secret I learned when I was about 10 years old - headlines are written by dolts who didn't read the whole article. Even if they had, the headline is too short for accuracy, and even if the whole story would fit in 5 words they'll still go for catchy over accurate. If you want to find out what's happening, read the whole article. If you want distorted, oversimplified, and often just plain wrong slogans written by marketdroids, just read the headlines - or listen to the TV news, it's about the same thing.
Please, this post is flame-bait. The article clearly recognizes the rise in prominence of linux in the server market, points out that by market share one can argue that linux is now the #2 deployed server OS, beating out UNIX, and notes that the promise of license-free open-source software has been mostly achieved.
The point of the article is simply that linux deployments on the PC desktop continue to be dwarfed by windows. Like the entire tech community didn't already know this.
See what happens when you allow a software company to run a tv station? They promote their own garbage. They do not give credit to other OSs and machines. I say everyone write to NBC, MSNBC, and your friendly people who work for you (yeah right) in DC and tell them how microsuck is doing it again and how their business is bad news, espeically since it's doing everything in it's power to use it's tv station to do other companies harm. It's kind of like that company on robocop... The city that was owned by a corporation and everything made was owned by that city. Well, that's microsuck.
===== Fiction ebooks and paperbacks.
The article is misinformed, but it is nowhere near the hatchet job implied by the lead. I wonder if posting an exaggeration like that does more harm than good, not only in some loss of credibility, but in giving the original article the inflamed click-throughs of /. readers? This article would not have been read by nearly so many people if the lead here were not so, how to put it? Inflammitory. Does this in itself hurt the Free Software/open source cause?
That was a rhetorical question...
...will point to this time and say "2002 was the year Microsoft lost the war."
Why will they say this?
But then again, I still don't understand why SQL Server is selling so well when the same codebase can be obtained for free from linux.sybase.com.
Still, free software is a flood that is rising around Microsoft, and Microsoft is busy trying to build something that floats. It is unlikely that they will succeed, given the importance of their legacy support.
It's labeled 'Tech PC Expo' in multiple places.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
There was also a 'crack' in there about how Linux has been command-line driven until relatively recently. THAT is FUD. Linux graphical interfaces have been under active development for quite some time now. Linux didn't suddenly get X or KDE or Gnome or even Motif just yesterday.
Even before KDE/GNOME, there were some reasonable attempts at ease of use sysadmin tools.
They're still slipping some poison in with the sugar.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
"Microsoft is hoping to reboot Windows sales by leading the charge toward the Tablet PC "
Well if Windows is involved - REBOOTS will most definately be involved too!
A long time ago (way back in the 80's) Windows was terrible - it was based on MSDOS - which was terrible and everybody thought it could never, would never supplant DEC, SUN, IBM proprietary software and hardware...
Now here comes Linux. I never thought it would get this far. Its written by a bunch of *dread* hackers.... I think the writing is on the wall.
There will always be proprietary stuff - but people like cheap- cheap- cheap. Now if someone could only pay me to run a piece of software.
Rock is dead....
Long Live Rock!
A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with. - Tennessee Williams
"Us yellowbeards are never more dangerous than when we're dead."
The thing about things we don't know is we often don't know we don't know them.
- Andrei Dmitriyevich Sakharov - Who? What are you reporting here?
- Slashdot censorship - Right, like that'll get posted. Probably just more whining about supposed moderation unfairness. Whatever.
- Is fetus a child? - Grammatically incorrect and not exactly the kind of topic for Slashdot. If you want an abortion debate, go elsewhere.
- Just paid for a 2 months Kuro5hin subscription - So? Do I care? I'm very happy for you.
Forgive me for not feeling sorry that those got rejected.Al Qaeda has ninjas!
this is the way i look at it
:)
MSNBC = Microsoft NBC
Author of article = By John W. Schoen
notice, the picture on left column gives his title as "MSNBC Sr. Producer"
I guess that tells us why his aritcle is all about the dead of linux
Next we'll see CNN on the Death of internet explorer
"cogito, ergo sum"
When the Microsoft accounting scandal breaks, as it will eventually, there'll hopefully be very little more of this crap.
I just hope you're all in money market funds in your 401K. DOW to 5000, Nasdaq to 700, that's my guess.
Edith Keeler Must Die
With a title like "So whatever happened to Linux," it's still a biased read.
"Just a few years ago, one of the hottest topics at this annual confluence of PC hardware and software makers was the so-called "open source" alternative to Microsoft's industry-dominant Windows operating system."
"Until recently, interacting with Linux was almost entirely text-driven -- much like Windows' precursor, DOS. So converting meant learning an arcane vocabulary of computerese to give the PC even the simplest commands."
Finally, a subtle push for their new products, which clearly Linux doesn't have an answer to (:
"And as Linux proponents continue to try to enlist desktop PC users, Microsoft is busy reinventing that desktop. With sales of new PCs in their worst slump in decades, Microsoft is hoping to reboot Windows sales by leading the charge toward the Tablet PC -- a sort of PDA on steroids."
Have to read the subtle language people. Don't flame the flamers. You have to remember that MSNBC's article will reach millions today.
cheers,
Ryan Compton
cheers, Ryan
Aren't these incarnations of the same product? Seems redundant...
come on fhqwhgads
"It's for geeks," said Faber Fedor, a New Jersey-based consultant who helps small businesses upgrade to Linux.
They correctly refer to it as "upgrading" when you install GNU/Linux over windoze...
This is left as an exercise for the reader.
Excuse please but isn't the MS in MSNBC Microsoft?
There is something FALSE there:
"A Linux-based open-source program called Evolution looks pretty much like a standard Windows desktop."
Gnome is a desktop, evolution is just a email client that is ugly as Outlook
If I were an MS exec, I'd be hopping mad that this opinion piece hit my own media outlet...especially the part about StarOffice and OpenOffice being a viable alternative to Office! And get this quote from a pro-Linux consultant:
"We don't get viruses," he said. "Last year, viruses cost the business world billions, but every one of those was on Windows."
Good heavens Miss Sakamoto - you're beautiful!
This disturbs me, the view that the prettier the pictures, the better OS is. Where does this fear (hate?) for the console come from? Are people really that weary of actually *learning* to work with their computer?
I guess I'm just too geeky to understand that everybody just wants pretty pictures and a very big button in the middle of the screen that says 'click me' and does whatever you want.
A computer is not a 2-button household appliance, and won't be that for many years. Come to think of it, I even think the need of the masses for computers is artificially - commercially generated. Like everyone had a typewriter in their house... I love computers, but if people want to play games, I'd suggest them to buy one of those consoles... If they want to watch movies, to buy a dvd or video-player... And hifi stuff for music.
It's this fear for learning that makes Micro$oft the monster it is. It also seems to be the reason Linux isn't the monster it could be (yet?) - at least on the desktop.
then that means that i must be in heaven!
US Citizen living abroad? Register to vote!
Nah, most people are scared of Linux because it's the Linux users that lynch them when they unleash the latest mail virus/trojan onto the company LAN.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
All it basically did was mention that Linux was popular in the server market and was not popular in the desktop market. That's old news. Who among you can disagree? The facts are before you. Could this article, then, be a challenge to spur us on? Perhaps we need to step up to the challenge robustly rather than in baby-steps. MacOSX did it - slammed on a kicking GUI on top of Unix for the average Joe to use. Why can't we? Progress is being made in that direction - it's time to put it to the test...
(where Mac OS X appears under Mac, not BSD).
A 2% share of the desktop is nothing to sneeze at.
...for me to POOP on!
IBM had PL/1, with syntax worse than JOSS,
And everywhere the language went, it was a total loss...
Here's my letter to the MSNBC author suggesting different interpretation / conclusions from his analysis.
Dear Mr Schoen,
A few notes on your column regarding the absence of Linux presence (at a recent tech expo in nyc? the context / event was not clearly named).
First I'd like to note different versions of a few of the statistics you present.
The statement that Windows (NT/2k/XP) servers are the largest server installed base: That is probably true if you look at number of licenses or CPUs. However if you look at a more meaningful number like total computing or transaction capacity running under Unix / Linux I think the number rather changes.
Win32 has it's best penetration in small organization and departmental applications. Windows does not scale well past 16 cpu SMP or clusters beyond a few dozen nodes. Therefor virtually all very large servers run Unix, which runs in SMP beyond 64 processors and can aggregate a thousand or more processors into supercomputers or large clusters.
Linux still lags behind the vendor-based unix platforms (IBM, HP, Sun), but is already considerably more capable of high-end scaling than MS's offerings, and is penetrating that market at a pace which reflects it's strengths (and weaknesses).
It is not news that Microsoft has aggressivly targetted both Unix and Linux in the data center. And for all I can see they are not winning anywhere near as often as they would like. IBM has won a number of very large accounts with AIX / Linux in direct competition with MS. This is pointed to in your own statement "Linux server sales jumped by more than 50 percent to $400 million, with IBM leading"
Part of the reason for that is that many Unix shops are able to deploy less-expensive Linux servers where priorly they were locked into proprietary RISC hardware running vendor-based Unix. However they *had* invested in platforms with fundamentally open programming interfaces.
The point here is that these savings are exactly realizable by organizations which had initially invested in open-platform investments. Merril Lynch recently announced a conversion of internal applications from Unix to Linux, citing the lower cost of maintaining applications within the opensource framework of Linux.
The key point here is that while porting applications between proprietary Unix versions (e.g. HP, IBM, Sun) is relatively expensive compared to standardizing on Linux, Windows simply doesn't play in that equation in a meaninful way. Microsoft is working very hard to counter this equation, but the economics don't work in their favor in the data center.
It is simply not meaningful today to compare market penetration from Desktop to Enterprise in either tech or economic terms. The market environments of servers at application, database, web and department are all markedly different. MS has excellentpenetration at the departmental level and of course the Desktop, but they have yet to translate this into serious penetration in any of the other three.
Those of us who do adopt linux on the desktop (I have been using Unix for professional / technical / server computation for 10 years) continue to marvel at the low reliability expectations of Win32 desktop users. Yes things are a lot better than win 3.1 / 95 / 98 days when a networked workstation could not be counted on to stay up for a working day.
NT and Win2k have improved on that record, however they are still a far sight behind Linux in reliability. I run Linux on a late-model laptop (which is probably Linux's toughest challenge, given that virtually no vendors support Linux on these systems, due to the low market share / returns to investment). My experience remains that I have better stability than I get with Win2k Pro
Sure I'm not the average user. My work is either technical or programming and the tools that work best for me are from the same domain as the servers which I run, deploy and support. And I'm not religious about this. As long as end-users have an easier time with proprietary systems they will (and should) stick with them.
However I also know that when the New YorkTimes runs anarticle on the relative compatibility, ease of use and low cost ($50 supported) of Open Office (On win32 or Linux) compared with $600+ for MS Office. I think it's fair to say that Opensource is beginning to competing with MS on the desktop. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/20/technology/circu its/20STAT.html
Many observers equate Open Source software with Linux, or the Free Software Foundation, or GPL. In fact the concept of OSS is probably older than Unix but Unix and the original Arpanet / Internet were the substantive proving grounds for these concepts. Today this has paid off in an infrastructure potent enough that it can develop cheap, reliable open systems that also run in the closed platforms.
How the race will play out remains to be seen, however if you are going to write about the subject I think it's best to look at all the elements of the market not just the ones which bolster your preferred outcome.
Home
Linux is Linux, if One need clarify their dist: <Dist>/GNU Linux
bsds are of course just BSD
If this isn't waving a red flag in front of a bull, I don't know what is.
The coolest voice ever.
MS declares victory... and retreats?
This could be good news for Linux! ;*)
For lamers/lusers/the unconverted (and everyone was one, or all three, once)
-Linux is for your old 486 when you can happily toast partitians at the press of a wrong button.
-Linux is also for VNCing onto(remote access) in the corporate lan.
Meant to make one good point, now I have gone and spoiled it.
Be Free: Free Software Tuition
the article hits the nail on the head on alot of things, especially about Linux on the desktop being mainly for geeks.
Listen, I don't care how many of your friends run Linux or how long you have or whether or not you consider yourself a geek. Linux is STILL, barring any serious work on the matter in the short term, an OS for people who like to customize, toodle, and otherwise explore & learn about their computers. People who like to compile source & install their own programs without a wizard. People who like being able to configure their shell.
It's been said here before, but you-all need to wake up & smell the ozone. 90% of people just want to turn on their machine and get something done. Many find computers foreign & scary. Most hate having to read anything before using a program. Most feel that if it's not self-explanatory it's not worth it.
I run Linux at home, though I'm a user, not a programmer. Though parts are very user-friendly much of it isn't and needs to be fixed. Linux is losing on the desktop because the geeks don't feel it's worthwhile to stick training wheels on Linux -- it's boring and takes time that could be used adding support for some feature we know is more worthwhile but doesn't matter to John & Jane Computeruser. Things like wizards, installation scripts that do ./configure / make / make install for you, decent documentation, etc. The community standards for user accessability are fine for us geeks, but far too high for Mom & Dad.
It's a serious tension point for Linux -- how do the geeks, as developers, maintain the freedom of all the customization of Linux and yet create add-ons that make newbies comfortable? KDE3 is a good step. Mandrake Linux is a good step. But more definitely needs to be done, and if it is to be done it'll have to be on individual geek time, because unlike the competition they're not sitting on a pile of cash.
The only tool you've got against psychosis is experience.
This is a classic fencing tactic called feinting: you pretend that your attack is in one place (on the PR front) and cause your opponent to react, thus opening them up for an attack in another place (the Technology front). We're very good at generating our own PR. Now we have to respond to the technology threat of Palladium, or kiss all compatibility with the Microsoft world (even at the web and email level) goodbye.
Finding God in a Dog
Now that it's dead, they have no hope of killing it off - sort of a "dawn of the dead" scenario. Linux, the ghoul os. You might kill it, but it keeps coming back, like Jason in Friday the 13th.
It's dead, and it still works - didn't even miss a beat. Beat that, MSNBullshit!
It's just like somone spapping your picture, pasting it on a White Supremacy poster and spreading it around town. A lot of people are just gonna read the headline without considering the source.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
Yes, Slashdot is Taco's project, the crew can do as they like, blah... but it's self-proclamedly a news site. If they don't realize that credibility is important, it's going to bite them in the long run. I'm looking for something better than a London tabloid, and it's possible that at present Slashdot is just barely better -- in choice of topics if nothing else. But when it clearly isn't (I think the day isn't far) I'll go away. I think many have done that already.
.... because this means that Microsoft is losing market share (or losing out on _potential_ markets) to a dead operating system. But then again, I'd like to see MSNBC explain away Linux's inroads in Taiwan, Peru, Disney's server farms, the US education market...... blah blah blah.
(--- is a MS programmer)
"With some 27 percent of the market, Linux is now the second most popular operating system for servers, supplanting the decades-old operating system UNIX; Microsoft holds the top spot. "
I imagine most of these "servers" are domain controllers and the like, it's funny how they forgot to include Apache statistics, most of which I'm assuming run on *nix (is there really that large of a statistic that run Apache on Windows?)
Apache - 56.21%
Microsoft - 31.68%
Zeus - 2.26%
iPlanet - 2.19%
http://www.netcraft.com/Survey/
linux team fighting!!!
Huh?? I believe if this author got his facts straight, Evolution is an email client.
This author doesn't know half of what Linux is, so how can he be informed on it in the desktop environment. He obviously hasn't checked out the German government or schools all over.
Don't ping my cheese with your bandwidth!
But there is more to Linux than the desktop. Linux is a great server OS and has been growing in market share. Combined with Apache, it's a great web-server platform that you can get FREE. As an embeded OS, Linux is doing great too. How much more do you think a TiVo would cost if they had to pay MS to do stuff for them? Not only that, they'd (probably) need better hardware to do the exact same thing. By using Linux on a platform that was already supported, they were able to save tons of time and money.
And let's not forget that Linux started as a hobbiest OS, and it has succeded greatly at this. I use, many other hobbiests do. It would cost a fortune to get some of the things Linux and the GNU project give me for free (development tools for every language, ludicrious ammounts of customizability) for Win 2k or XP.
Last of all, Linux is definatly improving. I've only been using it for a year or two and it is getting much better. But I still use Win 2k on my Windows box. Why? That's how I can support dual processors. And for me, XP has nothing new in it except it's anti-copying stuff which is a step BACK. I don't think that Windows is getting much better for me, do you? XP is what, 4 or 5 years newer, an there is no new great thing that I should get it for? Many people still use 2k very happily. How many people still use a version of Linux from 4 to 5 years ago because they see nothing out now that's any good? If they use that old version, it's on old hardware or because the computer hasn't been rebooted since '98, not because nothing in Linux has improved. Sure there are exceptions to this but lets face it. Linux is a dramatic success in the three areas that (IMHO) it focuses on: server, embeded, and hobbiest.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
It doesn't rush. It doesn't jump up and hold a big marketing flash because Linux XP is out. For the ones briefly looking at it, it appears standing still.
But it doesn't. In fact it's catching up, because more and more program hit the "feature wall". The program is basicly "done". There's only so much an e-mail client can do. An irc client. An IM client. A browser. A wordprocessor. A spreadsheet. And so on. There's no reason to go bananas over getting a feature commercial software already has, it's nothing new and edgepushing about it. But in the end people look at their wallet and pick one of three:
1) Buy commercial software
2) Illegally copy commercial software
3) Copy free software
...not nessecerrily in that order. 2) is a lost case, they'll copy the best and most expensive program out there anyway. Those who choose between 1) and 3) are the target group for linux. The problem is the "value" of having what everybody else has, despite the feature value.
Linux's way to the desktop is companies. Home users won't start fiddling with a new OS on their own. Companies, on the other hand, mainly needs something that works internally (and Windows machines for something that comes from the outside and just won't work with Linux).
For what I did last summer (still under education here), a Linux desktop with OpenOffice would have been enough. Add Evolution and Moz^H^H^H Opera (sorry Mozilla team) and my boss's machine would be done (no network sharing, mainly a mech shop, any simple spreadsheet, email and office suite would be sufficent.) He just doesn't know it.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Bzzt. Wrong. Did we even read the *same article*? Your "review" is a complete mischaracterization of the article; we don't need more FUD there, Chief.
The article merely noted that Linux was hyped to death for the desktop and hasn't made the huge splash there that many expected it to. Article says that corporate interest in Linux is *growing* and that it's making inroads to the consumer desktop with Wally World's cheap boxen.
It does not give little credit to Linux, or say anything about "open source" (or Linux) failing as an operating system. BTW, "open source" is not an operating system; it's a class of software.
The only one drawing conclusions here seems to be *you*. Try to acquire some reading comprehension skills before spouting off; and Taco - WTF made this a worthy submission?
For those of you who keep spazzing about how /. ain't bein' properly journalistic and all...here's a clue:
I'd say the architects of this bit of propaganda are rather on the sophisticated side. They distract you with a few dishonest suggestions about the progress of Linux and its competition with Winodws, but the real news is their blatant whitewashing of Microsoft's monopolistic practices (and their conviction in federal court).
The news is that there is no "competition" in the PC OS space because MS has a monopoly.
I hope someone saves this article. Quite often the congolmerate-owned news media is unethical in what they don't print, but this is a good example of the opposite. Someday there might be a chance to debate the de-regulation of the networks in Congress (I know, wishful thinking), and such evidence will be important.
We're on the road to Tycho.
Groovy, thanks. Sounds interesting, I should do some reading. :P
Al Qaeda has ninjas!
I stopped reading the article when I got to
"With some 27 percent of the market, Linux is now the second most popular operating system for servers, supplanting the decades-old operating system UNIX; Microsoft holds the top spot."
So...
1) Linux has 27% market for servers
2) Linux is second most popular for servers
3) Linux has beated out Unix (so unix =26% or less)
4) M$ holds the top spot for server OS's
so i'm to assume that some version of windows is sitting on about 50%(yes I know theres others im not looking at you amiga and osX fans but roughly) of the servers out there? LoL
Ave Molech Setting
Expect an equally biased viewpoint pro Open Source from CNN-Time-Warner-Netscape tomorrow that practically glows with regards to Open Source. Note the MS part of MSNBC... haven't any of you noticed how CNN reports on EVERY bug report in XP/IE/IIS and how equally quiet MSNBC is at the same time?
Pretty biased reporting all around, I'd say.
I'll stick to The Register *G*.
Toddlers are the stormtroopers of the Lord of Entropy.
These comments are proof that the /. community won't even let /. itself be unfair or biased. We the community are reasonable people, and even though slashdot doesn't *usually* throw flamebait at us, we aren't blind when it does. This is a bigger issue than ms vs. linux. It proves that the people of slashdot are really the intellectuals and the driving force behind a lucid outlook on the world. In accordance, stories should likewise be able to be moderated, as suggested beforehand.
The big problem with KDE and Gnome right now is that they're still not ready for prime time. I used them both for a bit and was really annoyed at how hard it was not only to find configuration options, but at how unrefined it felt. (Note: The version I used came with Redhat 6... or maybe 6.2. I'm not claiming my info's up to date. I know new versions of both are out now.)
This is not an attack on those programs, it's a criticism. If the average user ever has to get to a command prompt, then it fails.
I'm not saying they're unusuable, I'm saying that they need some more evolution in order to reach the mass 'I bought my computer at Gateway' market. Lots of people are quick to point out what Windows does wrong, not enough are examining what they did right.
There are lots of things about Windows that are comforting to a new computer user. For example, ever see this message: "These are system files, you really don't want to play around in here." It's an annoyance to advanced users, but to a new user it's comfort. "Oh, Windows won't let me break it by accident."
Anyhoo, I can imagine I'm going to burn karma over these comments. Again I'll say that I'm not saying "MS good Linux bad", I'm just saying that it's still a little behind.
"Derp de derp."
I simply provided examples of other articles, it does not mean my articles are better than the ones getting posted here. What I am saying is that the articles that do get posted somehow look more biased against MS basically.
Oh well.
And my article about Sakharov was submitted under an appropriate section of Slashdot - features and enlightment, I wanted to enlighten you on something. Sorry
You can't handle the truth.
the general unix architecture is so dated and flawed. all the modern offspring are only perpetuating this failure of design.
Is that REALLY the name, or just another generic term? So it's a Technology Personal Computer Exposition? Duh. ;)
Maybe we're just stupid here in the midwest for giving things meaningful, non-generic names. :) :P
I forget sometimes when it snows an inch on the east coast all of a sudden the whole country is in peril. I guess I should have known it was THE Tech PC Expo. It's in NY, of course.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
The long uptimes without a reboot, and the
security speaks for itself. Windows Suck, Linux Rules. This is just a lame propoganda ploy on
Microsoft's Behalf.
Looks like I can't vote on the article with galeon and cookies enabled ...
"Sorry. Your vote was not registered. The MSNBC Viewers' Top10 voting depends on your browser having a valid MSNBC cookie. If your browser accepts cookies, but you've gotten this message, please contact our Technical Support staff. Below are our viewer ratings for the past 24 hours. (Results are automatically updated every 60 seconds.)"
Yes, but CmdrTaco is an editor of /. The definition of editor as it applies in this case is:
a person who prepares, superintends, revises, and corrects a book, magazine, or newspaper, etc., for publication
/. falls under "etc." It is their responsibility to ensure that the news they post is at least in the ballpark of being correct. More now than ever, because they have people PAYING to view this content. If I laid down money to see this sort of tripe, I would be pissed. Wouldn't you?
The world moves for love. It kneels before it in awe.
Everything you mentioned as a weakness of Linux goes double in Windows 2000. IIS still has holes that MS hasn't patched, and there are far too many people running IIS who haven't applied the necessary patches that do exist. I can think of vulnerabilities in W2K FTP, W2K DNS, W2K Telnet, etc. etc. etc.
.NET Server to know whether or not MS has fixed the problem in their new server OS. I hope they do, because most W2K Server installations are ticking time bombs.
You speak of how bad root is...most W2K servers are locally booted with the Administrator account, and most services run with the W2K System account, which is just as bad as running as Administrator.
W2K has all the vulnerabilities you speak of and more...because there are far more people developing worms, virii and whatnot for W2K. I don't know enough about
I know these things...I'm an MCSE.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
They give some harsh articles about Microsoft, but they also publish Microsoft press releases almost verbatim, and they give some happy Microsoft articles as well. It's clear that the editorial staff doesn't shy away from throwing barbs at Microsoft, but they are far less harsh than say, The Register and Slashdot.
----
Open mind, insert foot.
are there numbers, real numbers anywhere on which Operating system people are running on their machines? Someone must be paid to do surveys on this stuff.
I would be interisted to see the numbers here in the USA where the piracy rate is lower then a place like China. I would bet that the chinese use more up to date software then we do because they pirate more ( and care less about 'hurting' companies whom they pirate from).
I thought I was BSD that was dead.
Liberty uber alles.
First they ignore you, Then they laugh at you, Then they fight you, Then you win --Gandhi
that's what I thought...we've almost won then!
there's no place like ~
You're predictable too you know :-) I've been just lookng for some hothead posting something like that. One way but in different direction, trying to be smart and thinkable as he's replying.
.NET, works for me).
I read all of that. And still....
It's a really bad MS commercial article, it's not supported with correct facts and author hasn't got a clue what he's saying. Except "MS rules"
I agree desktop market is low on users. But to be honest, this was the first year where linux is targeting users and not geeks with desktop. Everything is aiming to simple user this year. Notice "is" before replying.
But then again I agree with the pointing out that some points are MS related, and hardly solvable on Linux. On the other hand there is a point about not targeting software development to Linux in favour of Windows, well he could be smart enough that things could be written independently (with simple two steps avoiding their compilers and forcable solutions as
As for server market, I've stopped using Windows and my world become simpler.
Signature Pro version 1.13.2-3 release 83.5 beta3try7 after-breakfast edition
what does the "MS" in "MSNBC" stand for?
MS from MSnbc. Its all part of microsoft's plan to promote their shitty os and iis server.
Everyone is born right-handed; only the greatest overcome it
What if they plotted a viciously anti-linux story so that Slashdot would link to it. Then as soon as it appears on Slashdot... they exchange the page at that link to a positive one. People visit the link, see that slashdot's comment was wrong and then start writing a bunch of nasty things about slashdot. Whadaya think, huh, huh, huh???
Blender And Linux Fan
FOR ME TO POOP ON!
As other posters who have actually read the article would agree, for MSNBC to post "So whatever happened to Linux?" with a byline "At tech expo, open source software is hard to find" smacks of media influence by ownership. By the article's own account, in just a few short years of being discussed in the mainstream media, Linux has taken the #2 spot in software and is steadily growing. Hardly an O/S that's disappearing into the wings.
What's next from MSNBC... "So whatever happened to CBS?"
Anyway, here's a real target: The home-server market (where MS's eHome crap is headed) is still ripe for Linux. To me, that's the one real path still open for Linux to make headway in home computing. Like, where can you buy a turn-it-on-and-go Linux server/box/hub that's a no-brainer for Joe Parent to hook up at home?
Linux needs to be de-geeked, where the only users with root access are those who actually SELL the box. Stuff the nerd in the box -- and sell the box instead! Besides, what better way to slide onto the home desktop than by sneaking in on the server?
Anywayz... just my 2-fxxking cents.
<---[singularity sig]
Bill Gates II (Sr) is 6'-6" and powerfully built (point made in bio to contrast with the limp wrist build of his son).
Whatever. :) As to the Sakharov thing, my point there was that just submitting a title with someone's name isn't a good title at all. What's the story about? Why should I read it? They probably wouldn't let a story through with just the title "Linus Torvalds," either. Gotta give out more info in the title. Also, I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but Enlightenment is a Window Manager for X, hence the topic . . .
Al Qaeda has ninjas!
Headline: "So whatever happened to Linux?"
u s
First Sentence, Paragraph 2: "LINUX HASN'T gone away."
some 40 percent said they were either using or testing Linux
With some 27 percent of the market, Linux is now the second most popular operating system for servers
Linux server sales jumped by more than 50 percent to $400 million, with IBM leading the pack.
WalMart recently began selling a house brand PC at rock bottom prices -- available with Linux for the thriftiest PC buyers.
Well, there you have it. What was the point of this article again?
purveyors of Linux software and support have fallen back to earth -- along with their stocks.
Yes, well we should certainly expect Linux stocks to buck the trend and grow 40% a year while the rest of the market drops.
managers of large corporate technology departments.
Oh, yes. Those forward-thinking, risk-taking, visionaries of the business world. They'd all be using Linux by now, but they had to go to a meeting.
Until recently, interacting with Linux was almost entirely text-driven
Wasn't X written back in the 70s? So Jimmy Carter was President until recently too, right?
But adopters of Linux still face hurdles living in a Microsoft world.
rofl A Microsoft world...
Oh, memorandum for "journalists"
Hyphenated buzzwords such as:
industry-dominant
mainframe-like
cost-conscio
and the obligatory but thankfully absent
memory-hungry
make the article sound like it was written by an idiot. They do not sound hip, and they are poor substitutes for good grammar, despite what your soccer-mom readership tells you.
They distract readers from the point of your article like someone dropping an industrial dishwashing machine down four flights of stairs would distract players in a chess game.
What is it again? First they ignore you...
from the article itself:
;)
(MSNBC is a Microsoft-NBC joint venture.)
Extra note: this prolly has been said before in the comments, but it can't be said too many times
Beware of Programmers who carry screwdrivers. -- Leonard Brandwein
Microsoft Finally Goes Off Deep End in Response to Fierce Competitor Linux
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
this article is clearly directed at non-it professionals and therefore makes use of the typical ms smokescreen. according ms, any os lives and dies by the home user's desktop. any technology professional can tell you this is a farce, the real money is made in the server room. If you doubt this, compare the earnings ms generates from office, the backoffice suites, and of course nt/2000 to their desktop software earnings (98,xp, etc...). the server room is also where *nix has never been subplanted as the dominant os. while true that many small companies begin a sever room with windows, i'm not aware of a single large company without a dominating *nix presence. the reason of course is that ms simply doesn't scale.
windows is in fact be the most pervasive os for the desktop, but this article ignores another equally important fact (in terms of profit and sucess): windows is also the most pirated os.
the fud comments made in the article clearly are meant to color the perception of home users, and managers with no technology background. but luckily for us, the truth stands the test of time, while despite all of the press available the mis-information will eventually be exposed.
Its just more stuff cranked out of the M$ FUD machine and is full of fallacies and innacuracies.
My favorite quote:
With some 27 percent of the market, Linux is now the second most popular operating system for servers, supplanting the decades-old operating system UNIX; Microsoft holds the top spot.
Um, HELLO? Linux *IS* UNIX, or a form of it anyway.
--Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
I hate do say it, but Microsoft DOES have the upper hand here. Even though I don't agree with it.. they have a dumb enough OS that a 3 year old can figure it out. In order for Linux to penetrate the vaginal crevis that is called the "Home User", they need to ease the desktop and basically dumb it down to childs play. yes.. it is for geeks.. I'm one.. I use it religeously. Does it mean my mom and pop are necesiarly going to change to it any time soon? Probably not. - John
Come on! Read the posts and you may see that the last ten score:5 posts say exactly what you were thinking. There is no need to read the same thought ten times. Just reply to the post and agree, dangit.
TodayTM BillyJoelTM GoogleTMd for StitchTMes due to WindowsTM while RollerbladeTMing with an AppleTM and a PopsicleTM
Seriously, sales of WinXP are way below target projections, revenues are drying up, if it wasn't for Win2K and OfficeXP than Bill G would have to apply for welfare in Redmond.
....
Note the key word is "sales".
How much do we make for a free download - zilch.
How much do we make for a cheapbytes - $2 (ok, $0.02 profit)
How much do we make for a regular sale - maybe $30.
Meanwhile MSFT charges $200 to $1000, depending on the bundle.
So if I sold 50000 Linux boxen, with 5000 clean distro copies (10 being net copied or free for every sale), I get (5000 x $30) + (5000 x $2) + (40000 x $0) = $150000 + $10000 + $0 = $160000 total.
And if I sell the same Win boxen, I get 25000 WinXP Pro at $500 + 15000 Win XP at $200 + 10000 Win2K Pro at $200 = $12500000 + $3000000 + $2000000 = $17500000 or $17.5 million
Therefore, even though I sold the same number of boxen with OS on it, MSFT gets 99 percent of the sales dollars and Linux gets 1 percent of the sales dollars.
Therefore, everyone is buying MSFT.
But wait! We actually sold the SAME NUMBER of Linux boxen as Win boxen!
Don't trust statistics and sales figures unless you have an MBA or took third level Statistics and Sales courses
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
That should be dead-like-a-fox
"Stupid, am I? Stupid like a fox!" --H. Simpson
I prefer to make wild assumptions based on misleading statements from /. editors.
MS = evil
MSNBC contains MS
so MSNBC = evil
MS hates Linux
so MSNBC hates LINUX too....
What I have read in some of your comments disturbs me. MSNBC might not be bias on what they report the news on, but they are still with MS which Microsoft has been trying to discredit Linux for as long as I can remember. This is just another step toward winning over companies that are thinking about using Linux instead of windows. MSNBC is posting this to make people think its "dead" or just a worthless cause.
"Oh, Windows won't let me break it by accident." Windows does a good job of breaking itself!
-- Probability does not dismiss possibility --
...where does that put BSD?
...and slashdot caters to fucking idiots.
Thank you. Thank you. I'll be here all week.
Dragging people kicking and screaming into reality since 1996.
"But Linux software is getting better -- and now more closely mimics the Windows world that the vast majority of PC users are accustomed to." all of microsoft's top ten reasons to upgrade to XP are features we have seen in linux for a long long time.. and consisdering who they ripped the GUI and DOS off of seems to me this journalist is either brainwashed or just being paid lots. (not that theres much difference between the two in a capitialist world)
Yes, Linux, with its emphasis on POSIX compliance, is more UNIX than many other Unices on the market.
Russian Russian Russian RussianDollSig DollSig DollSig DollSig
"Until recently, interacting with Linux was almost entirely text-driven -- much like Windows' precursor, DOS. So converting meant learning an arcane vocabulary of computerese to give the PC even the simplest commands."
I installed redhat without X b/c I only use SSH to connect to my two linux servers. And "arcane vocabulary of computerese" HAHAHA thats a good one... any that uses linux for what it is good for would probably disagree that it is arcane computerese.
I think the simplicity of a none-GUI makes it much easier to do that things you need to do maintenance wise to servers, etc.
I telneted in over the com port... some process in the network had causing the BSD system to slow down to a 'project on the back burner' speed, after killing the 'we must write software M$ can rip off' process evrything started to work again
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Taco's just trying to stir up the hornets' nest again. I mean really, how much credibility does M$NBC have reporting on a topic such as Linux? For that matter, how much credibility does M$NBC have (.)
-- Probability does not dismiss possibility --
"If you know your claims are uninformed bullshit, then don't make them."
If you can't refute my claims, then don't reply to me.
"Derp de derp."
is Linux in embedded devices. I have a Tivo at home which runs, if I have read correctly, a modified version of Linux. The PS/2 also runs a modified version of Linux (please correct me if
I'm wrong on this). Linux provides those considering building devices such as consoles and PVRs a reliable and scalable operating system that can be adapted to many environments. This allows developers to come up with interesting new devices (such as the Tivo) without paying the Microsoft tax, both financially for licensing and also in terms of the performance and reliability issues that arise when you try to shoehorn a desktop OS into an embedded device.
cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
I will proceed to point out loaded phrases the author throws into the article even if they don't make much sense in the context of the article.
While it might be true that most of the programmers are not paid, it doesn't really mean anything. More microsoft FUD. Using the words "not paid for their work" seems very contrived. It seems to mesh very well with the idea that open source is unAmerican and destroys jobs.
Excuse me? So I guess Windows Server and Datacenter are for the average person? I'm not saying that Linux is as easy to learn as Windows, but don't try to disparage Linux b/c it is powerful by saying Windows products are so easy to use.
Yeah, it is good that they finally invented a GUI for linux last month. This is an attempt to scare people away from linux as much as possible.
I guess he doesn't see much of a point writing windows applications for individual PC buyers either. There are a lot of computer games that sell for around $49.95 and they seem to be doing just fine *cough* warcraft III is $47.95 on pricegrabber.
What happened to Linux?
I'll answer this question since the author never seems to get back to the title of his article.Well it appears Linux has continued to make in-roads cutting away at Microsoft profits. It has become such a threat that Microsoft has funded PR FUD attacks against it. Linux, a completely free (beer and speech) product threatens an entrenched monopoly. Try picturing that 10 years ago. The short answer is that GOOD things have happened to Linux.
Couldn stand it so here is the e-mail I sent to the author ------------- John: Refering to your article posted on june 26 in MSNBC: http://www.msnbc.com/news/772215.asp I must say: A big, if not the biggest responsability of communicators, like you, is to avoid spreading misiformation. In no way I'm triyng to say that you are an irresponsable. I just think your article lacks of some very important points that could make it more "information-rich", let me say without any offense that, it's just imprecise and parcial. I hope you have the disposition to read this mail completely. Consider it my humble collaboration to your article. 1.A Linux-based open-source program called Evolution looks pretty much like a standard Windows desktop. Evolution is not a desktop environment, GNOME + Sawfish, KDE, Enlightenment, and some others are, but Evolution it is just a mail client, it would be more precise to say that: A Linux-based open-source program called Evolution looks, and works pretty much like Outlook. or A Linux-based open-source program called KDE looks pretty much like a standard Windows desktop. 2. StarOffice and OpenOffice provide most key features offered by Microsoft Office ... (Up to this part it sounds fair enough, but then
you continue saying) ... including a word processor, spreadsheet, and
mail program
What mail program are you talking about?, OpenOffice 1.0 uses your
default e-mail client to send out the documents. Have you installed or
tested in any way Open or Staroffice? What about the presentations
program, and the verctor drawing program that comes with Open and
Staroffice? I dont see here the most important key features of these
THREE office suites, including MS Office, this is what Fedor meant when
he said: "these alternatives offer MORE than a familiar look and feel.",
which is the ability to read and write not only in standard file
formats, like RTF, PS, CSV, or common image formats, but the ability to
read and write, in a very acceptable way, Word, Excel and Powerpoint
Files, which is related to your next imprecission.
3.High on the list of headaches is incompatibilities with files created
with Microsoft products like Word
I hope that this imprecission is covered by my last precission.
3.Small software makers like Lindows are trying to help desktop users
bridge that divide.
I think that this is a good example but without explanation. How about?
Small software makers and developers like Lindows, Crossover or the WINE
project are trying to help desktop users bridge that divide by
developing a way to run MS programs under Linux.
I think your article is more focused hide the great effort behind linux.
4. LINUX HASN'T gone away.But after attracting widespread attention and
generating several moonshot initial public offerings during the tech
boom, purveyors of Linux software and support have fallen back to earth
The widespread attention included the attention and extreme pressure
againt its development from an enormous monopoly charged company which
refuses to accept that there are other operating systems that can run on
desktop computers as well, besides the ones controlled directly or
indirectly by them. I assure you that if this company enormous company
retires their office suite for Mac OS, and inflicts the same pressure
agains Apple by blocking the interaction with its products via License
Agreements or demands, there will be probably an article titled.
So whatever happened to MAC OS?
6. With sales of new PCs in their worst slump in decades, Microsoft is
hoping to reboot Windows sales by leading the charge toward the Tablet
PC -- a sort of PDA on steroids.
Since the title is "So whatever happened to Linux?" and not "So whatever
happened to Windows?". Its is more in topic to mention here that a
Linux-based Tablet-PC is out for some time now.
http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT2255681925. html
http://www.fica.com/site/html/products/internet/de tail.asp?cat_id=240000054&C_ID=240000090
7.So whatever happened to Linux?
As a reader gets to the end of a reading, specially an article about a
specific topic (like this one), the conclusion should be clear and
rounded at the end but the last 3 paragraphs only talk about Microsoft's
stategies about Tablet PC and Open Source. So I ask you: So whatever
happened to Linux?
I will not extend beyond this point (not meaning that there is nothing
more to say, there are many, many, many things left). Hope this lines
could make things clear enough.
Greetings,
Carlos Davila
Electronic Systems Engineer
it is you and people like you who makes "beloved Linux' look bad. If you took the time to read the article, you would have noticed that he had a lot of good things to say about Linux and his facts are actually correct. But now with thousands of LUsers emailing him about his "writtng skills"(sic) his opinion of Linux and the Linux community may just change. Writers and columnists does not give Linux a bad name. LUsers are giving Linux a bad name!
We've certainly seen reliability problems up until recently. 2.4.17 has been working out well for us, however, as web servers and back-end db servers (+144 days for MySQL db servers doing about 75 queries/sec for the whole time).
2.4 definitely took a long time to stabilize, but I think it's there (we have seen suspicious ext3 problems even at 2.4.18 when using data=writeback).
From a performance point of view, we've definitely seen more I/O throughput out of 2.4 - for MySQL, we're getting about 3 times as many SQL queries handled, at less load.
Read The Linked Article!
geesh!
I have no troubles calling MS or MSNBC a bunch of muckracking FUD spreaders, if it can be backed up. As far as this article goes, too many people read the biased post, ignored the article and started posting the usual anti-MS rants.
The article gave credit where it is due, serverside. As for the desktop, the article stated it much as it is; getting better, but still lacking.
The idea of open source might have been derided, but the accomplishments seem to have been stated fairly close to the truth.
IMO, of course.
I'm not claiming my info's up to date. I know new versions of both are out now.
How can you make such a strong criticism of KDE or GNOME when you admit you're uninformed?
I've used KDE earlier this year, and can't remember anything I couldn't do from their GUI (except customize my window manager like Enlightenment, so I stuck with E).
Ooh boy...windows xp will force you to click an 'override' or 'do it anyway' button sometimes. Under a *real* multiuser operating system (like Linux), the user accounts can try to destroy system files all they want, but all they have is r-x permission at most. That is protection from both malevolent users and inept ones.
The only thing really comforting to a new user about windows is the fact that it's already there. Put any modern OS on a computer pre-installed and our moms will be okay with it.
all very interesting, and I must admit that RH 6.2 graphics wise is not hot at all. On the other hand, GNOME 1.4 (I don't use KDE 3, it significantly reduces preformance on my pIII 500 320megs RAM) is nive and easy to use, as are the system administrations tools that come with RedHat.
:)
On the other hand Nautilus is a huge pile of bloated junk
Rational thought is the only true freedom
Honestly, I didn't think the article was nearly as inflamatory as slashdot indicated. Linux HASNT caught on as much as the mainstream press expected, and the average person DOENSN'T know what ever happened to it. The article pretty much just says it as it is. No where in there does it say that Linux is dead.
Jeremy
There's a big difference in clock speed, yes, but an 850mhz Duron is going to perform more like a 950mhz-1ghz Celeron, so it's not an entirely unfair comparison in that respect. (see this comparison for benchmarks comparing the duron 1200 to the celeron 1300 - yeah, an 850 Duron won't outperform a 1.3 celeron, but it's not exactly a landslide in the Celeron's direction either)
The real difference hardware-wise between these two is the hard drive. The Windows computer - 40g to the Lindows box's 10g - this matters a lot more than a few Mhz, IMHO!
Still, for many end users, the 10g is fine, and the extra $$$ they save is a big deal to them.
The Free desktop that Just Works
"How can you make such a strong criticism of KDE or GNOME when you admit you're uninformed?"
Because it was so bad that I went back to Windows 2000.
My point was not to criticize particulars of it, but rather to point out they should be looking at what MS did right and take notes. It's not perfect. They need more evolution in the direction that would make it more attractive to new computer users. That's a valid comment and I'm not taking it back just because I'm a version behind.
If I, somebody who knows Windows backwards and forwards and can support people over the phone with it, has trouble picking up KDE and using it, then it needs some serious design work. I'm not talking bug fixes here.
"Derp de derp."
This is like MSNBC reporting that Slashdot doesnt like Microsoft
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered Linux community when IDC confirmed that Linux market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that Linux has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. Linux is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.
You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict Linux's future. The hand writing is on the wall: Linux faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for Linux because Linux is dying. Things are looking very bad for Linux. As many of us are already aware, Linux continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.
Debian Linux is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time Debian Linux developers Ian and Deb only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: Debian Linux is dying.
Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.
SuSe leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of SuSe. How many users of Slackware are there? Let's see. The number of SuSe versus Slackware posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 Slackware users. GNU/Linux posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of Slackware posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of GNU/Linux. A recent article put Red Hat Linux at about 80 percent of the Linux market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 Red Hat Linux users. This is consistent with the number of Red Hat Linux Usenet posts.
Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, Red Hat Linux went out of business and was taken over by Mandrake who sell another troubled OS. Now Mandrake is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.
All majr surveys show that Linux has steadily declined in market share. Linux is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If Linux is to survive at ll it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. Linux continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, Linux is dead.
Fact: Linux is ying
And despite being even less user friendly than Linux, Microsoft has managed to force almost every PC buyer to acquire a copy of their operating system. Which only goes to show that user friendliness and marketshare have little to do with one another.
But Linux software is getting better -- and now more closely mimics the Windows world that the vast majority of PC users are accustomed to.
It never seems to occur to people that Linux users like their systems to be different. Do we all drive one kind of car? Do we all live in one kind of house? Do we all eat only at chain food stores? Why should operating systems be like the USSR, centrally planned and only coming out in one model?
We need an open market in operating systems, and that means that the courts and regulations need to curb Microsoft's (understandable and natural) monopolistic tendencies, even if that costs the consumer a little time and money in the short run.
AAA
Eat at Joe's.
Which county is that? I live in Arizona and am interested to see how whichever county it is, is handling it.
While this article does say some odd things (unix outdated etc, etc ...) I would say over all it is not that bad. All it is saying is that Linux after much hype has not done that well on the desktop. Can anyone argue with that, I think we all know that it has not done that good. The article does say though that it is doing well in server space and has much backing in the area. I would say before jumping on the title of this article and the MS part of MSNBC read the article and see that it is just not that bad ...
man
No manual entry for
you mean that article was written by someone who's pay is somehow related to the borg^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hmicrosoft?!? I would never of noticed!
---- There are 10 types of people in the world. Those that understand binary and those that don't
Good doggy. You get a MSbone (c)(t)(r). Shame on you for comparing a server operating system to a desktop operating system. What ever your personal biases have to be to keep your job why don't you at least wait until they start making real linux desktop systems before writing editorials comparing them Red Hat has just finally said they are going to begin making desktop oriented versions. Scared huh? What do you have to say about star office being the number one seller on amazon even though there has been no marketing associated to it. Why is win XP selling so poorly other MS OSs have come out in recessions? Why is MS profits down so much lately? I'm not saying I feel that open source is the way to go. I agree that a software industry must survive on more than goodwill but you should be ashamed of your self for taking cheap and desperate looking shots.
Name Withheld to avoid midnight visits by storm troopers.
"A good friend will bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, 'damn....that was fun!'"
Look, I don't see why everyone is so hung up on the /. summary being, I don't know, accurate or something. I mean, have you seen the post count on this baby? Instead of criticizing CT for posting this flamebait story with little or no value that doesn't tell any of us anything we didn't know (gee, Windows is kicking ass on the desktop...), we should thank him for continuing to earn the banner hits. Woo hoo, big Internet cash here we come!
/. doesn't have profit sharing for it's members? Nevermind...
Oh wait,
My other
worth noting that they've fixed the mistake already. Someone over at msnbc is clearly popping in on /.
He looked at me and said, "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send your fingerprints off to Washington."
"TunkeyMicket writes "It appears MSNBC is reporting that Linux has failed as an operating system. By citing the large Linux hype as reason for Linux to be dominating the market, they draw the conclusion that the "open source" alternative has flopped as an operating system. They briefly mention the success of Linux in the server community, but really the article gives Linux as little credit as possible."
-1 Flamebait for CmdrTaco.
The article is nowhere near as critical as this lead-in suggests. Sheesh Taco, a shameless troll.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
If all logged-in users could daily moderate the submissions queue, with the top 30 stories or so making it to the front page, Slashdot would no longer need editors and the quality of the stories would improve 100%. Why this wasn't implemented or at least run as an experiment a long time ago seems strange to me.
Nowhere it that article that I saw was 'Death' even implied, simply low market penetration, due to windows being preloaded... (which I think is the Linux communities major complaint)
Looks like Schoen did a crap research job. Internally in GE, linux is big and getting bigger. Large servers and web sites running it. R&D groups have it by the boatloads. Many internal discussion groups on the subject. Corporate is buying into it and funding it. Nothing subtle or underground about it at GE.
Seems he needs to do a better job on research next time.
-Subotai
"The only way to catch tiger cubs is to go into the tiger's den."
linux is dead and 2 + 2 = 5
You know, Microsoft actually runs Linux on quite a few of their servers instead of NT (2K) with IIS...
Tibbon
tibbon.com
Err no I didn't refute them, I said my info was old.
Too bad you're busy telling me to shut up instead of explaining to me what they did to address those issues since the last release.
"Derp de derp."
I would have if the feature list I saw showed any signs of improving the problems I had with it.
I do, however, have a unix seasoned software engineer sitting right behind me right now trying to get Linux running. Getting the network connection to work, for example, is requiring him to go muck around with Linux's prompt. If it takes that just to do a basic network thing (as opposed to a couple of mouse clicks like Windows), then it's not the type of thing that Gateway is going to even be remotely interested in selling to newb customers.
And no, I'm quoting a guy by the name of NanoG. My name is NanoGator.
"Derp de derp."
Wow.
The MSNBC article was right on the money IMHO. Except for maybe the "it's for geeks" statement, now I'll consider myself a geek, but I know a few who delved into Linux-land and who aren't super-tech-savvy and fared just fine.
The response here for a large percentage was pure textbook knee-jerk, and for that show, I thank you all, VERY entertaining!
"The Slashdot olde tyme knee-jerk reaction show!"
*applause*
Sehr geehrter Toilettenbenutzer!
If you went back to Windows 2000 because KDE or Gnome was so bad and because you couldn't figure out KDE "because of design work" then you are the type of person that just needs to stick with Windows. -- I used myself as an example, I'm not saying that it needs that to sell me on Linux. New computer users feel threatened by having to type in commands. Linux, if it's going to succeed in the desktop world, needs to be more intuitive with the mouse. In the case of KDE and Gnome, at the time I tried them, they needed a lot of work in that area. It didn't appear as though they spent any time worrying about it. They both had the expectation that I would go mucking around with Linux commands in order to administer it. That's a bad expectation for the market I mentioned.
"Linux is not defined by a GUI." -- It needs to be if it's going to enter the desktop market. It needs a graphical interface that's usabililty is on par with Windows or Mac. Until then, it's just not going to be on the desktop.
Does that mean Linux is dead? No. It just mean Linux won't be sold at Gateway any time soon.
The attitude that 'you should stick with Windows' is a horrible, HORRIBLE attitude to have if you want to expand the Linux userbase and dethrone MS.
"Derp de derp."
Maricopa County
1 23 1&mode=nested&tid=103
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/06/17/165
"I will reply, and dont want to refute, I know and you know, as do 97% of the ppl who read /. that you dont have a friggen clue what you wrote about."
85% of those people were busy trying to flush my statement instead of trying to understand it. It isn't hard to read what I said and say "Ah, what he wants is for the graphical interface to control the whole machine like Mac and Windows does, versus being (for all intents and purposes) a shell."
KDE or Gnome should be able to hide the Linux prompt completely like OSX hides BSD from the user. The average user should not ever need to get to it. If they can get to that point, then they can start selling at places like Gateway. I should be able to install a new driver EASILY through KDE. I should be able to change my network settings via a simple dialog interface, EASILY. It should all be organized so I can find it, EASILY.
If KDE or Gnome fixed that since the version I mentioned, GREAT! Hallelieuia! I just don't know that they did. What I read about was 'font anti-aliasing'. Oh big important upgrade.
"Derp de derp."
I wonder how GNU-NBC would report the story? Something like "Is Windows dead? Linux is the overwhelming choice of users replacing their pre-installed operating system."
Im sure that I speak better english than you spanish =) Don't you think? Pinche mamon pendejo!!!!!!!!!!? Disguised as anonymous coward
It's dead when developers who develope Linux Server applications during the day run Windows XP at home at night. Or the BEST ISP who's heads use Linux for the ISP part but use Windows for their accounting... not to mention for all their HOME needs. :(
Linux as a desktop option for the DUMB masses of the world won't EVER work... Hell Windows for the dumb masses of the world doesn't work now either!
when they ban enctryption only criminals wi$21*J *#JF$%!@#$':
Your overly simplified metaphor (which illustrates that you don't get my point, you really should have read my sig) is wrong.
It'd be more like this:
I'm still using Linux because I don't think Windows 95 service release 2 is ready for prime time. Windows 95 service release 1 still requires configuration in the Autoexec.bat and Config.sys files to run properly. I doubt they made an interface for it where you can just flip a few switches to make it work.
To which the proper reply should be: "Oh, good news. They did fix that. They did a bunch of work in that area. It may be worth you trying out now."
Instead of this: "FUCKING MORON!! You don't even know what you're talking about since you don't live and breath Windows 95 SR 2. Why don't you just go format your hard drive and then install Windows 95 SR 2 before you try to tell us there's something wrong with it!" Which is basically what you Linux loving dweebs are telling me. Never mind that I'm simply suggesting a little more thought go into the user interface, no no you'd rather attack me because I said there's something Linux could learn from both MS and Apple.
If you're still whinging about my not being 100% up to date before commenting on the incompetance of a product, then just leave it. It is not central to my point. It's responses like these that inspired my signature.
"Derp de derp."
Mabe they think it is dead because M$ has done everything imaginable to stop computer makers from offering it as an option to windows
Oh, I get it. "Microsoft's National Broadcasting Company". No wonder they say "linux is dead".
Rapidweather's Linux Screenshots.
Since when has the primary interest of Linux been to sell to commercial companies?
;)
The book Just for Fun puts across the true meaning of linux: a fun project to hack on. Who gives a sh*t about how well it sells? This is about hacking on your computer, not watching it's price on the stock market.
That's not to say that businesses should not be involved at all; quite the opposite. But using it as a money-making thing just isn't right..
You were expecting a sig?
MSnbc
That article read just like a troll. For instance:
"So converting meant learning an arcane vocabulary of computerese to give the PC even the simplest commands"
I imagine "computerese" is supposed to mean "computer language". At any rate, it's an absurd thing to say that computers are programmed in "computerese". Does that mean C, Smalltalk and Python are dialects of Computerese?
Reading that awful text, I really expected at any moment to see "Lunix" or "Torvaldez"...
That won't be hard; I've never frothed before...
(Gleefully stolen from "Granny Growler" of the old "Tom Slick" cartoons).
Uh guys, the MS in MSNBC stands for Microsoft - of course they are going to say "Linux has failed" what do you expect?
The local Walmart that we all go to is not the same as walmart.com. So, this statement is not true: "Where else but WalMart can you now find a computer for a mere $299??!? " They do not have one at your local Walmart for that price. And, the $299 does not include a monitor. Most shoppers going to the Walmart store have seen the flyer distributed locally, and expect an OS and a Monitor. Most of these lately have been over $800, and include XP and a printer. I looked at the Tiger Direct site today, and they do not have anything better than the walmart.com $299 microtel, however, so it is an attractive deal, especially since you get Linux preinstalled, and a modem for that. Monitors are too heavy to ship cheaply one at a time, so one bought locally from Office Depot, etc. might be the best value to go with the $299 walmart.com machine. Final cost probably will run at least $425 or so, buying the monitor locally.
Rapidweather's Linux Screenshots.
it was just waking up when you stunned it.
Is Linus' dad one of those Scandinavian ogres you would typically see on the "World's Strongest Man" competition on ESPN2?
Aw, fuck it. Let's go bowling. - The Big Lebowski
I agree, but there must be a standard to strive for. If you have nothing to compare your actions to, there's nothing to act as a check.
" If you don't know the current status, then don't fucking comment on it. "
So what you're saying is that nobody outside of the Linux world has the right to express their concerns about it.
Funny thing is, with all this flaming, not a single person has told me that either KDE or Gnome has fixed it.
"Derp de derp."
"My rather long winded point here is - Posts like NanoGator's make good points, a lot of things are still rough around the edges, but they are being worked on. Instead of getting your panties in a knot when somebody says something needs work, try working on it."
:)
Just wanted to say thanks. I really appreciate that you read what I said and understood my point. Most of the people who participated in this thread were in "MS SUCKS" mode.
I really hope the other AC's in this thread don't represent the community working on Linux. If their attitude sticks, it's hard to imagine Linux being taken seriously as a desktop OS.
I'm going to be a Linux user soon. My job is getting me VMWare so I can install it on Windows 2000. My job, believe it or not, is to design software interfaces. You can imagine my perspective on this now I think.
"Derp de derp."
After having read the slashdot article on the pledge of allegiance and its following comments, and now this article and its comments, I believe the we should be forced to say, "In God", as its obvious that every slashdot reader is a raving zealot.
We hear one cry that Linux isn't superior, that it isn't #1, and that it isn't LOVED BY ALL and we FREAK OUT. I bet that every CEO and CTO that glances at these messages we leave here has second thoughts on implimenting a Linux solution in his company. We appear as madmen. Until we can accept that we're number two we'll always appear as such. Our zealously shines on Slashdot, and we sound like spoiled children. We should be proud that Linux gets as much media attention as it does. It went from being used and developed by Linus to the #2 OS in 10 years! It has Microsoft scared. Sun is promising GNU compatible tools on Solaris. IBM is qualifing all of its server hardware for it. We've got the support from the companies that matter. Now we need to get the support from potential customers. And sounding like raving, religous zealots will not win us points with these people.
-- If we don't stand up for our rights, now, there will be no right to stand up for them later.
How is it that the world of the bottom line can truthfully show exactly what happened to Linux. Perhaps the OS is better used as an OS than as a 401K padding..... But fret not, Im sure another bandwagon will come along shortly for all you day-traders.
I looked at that article, it happened to be the father of one of my friends, so I called him and had a lengthy conversation. I asked if he wanted to be interviewed, apparently the thousands of e-mails he recieved deterred him :)
Anyway, many of the replies here, and the contents of the e-mails sent to him suggest that most people either didn't read the article, or read it with the "Is Linux Dead?" line in mind. That's not the point of the article. His point is that linux still faces the problem of attracting the home user who doesn't want to sit at his computer looking at a bash shell, he wants an attractive, user-friendly OS. Distributions like Red Hat certainly cater to this, but one other hardship convincing the home user that Linux is the way to go, rather than Microsoft's products. I suggest that all who are accusing the author of being biased first re-read the article from an objective perspective.
Why does the air all of a sudden have the oder of Gates and his cronnies?
Blah blah blah those so called "open source" people promised THE WORLD blah blah blah but Wall Street decides what is successful in this town blah blah blah this ought to make my bosses as MSNBC happy.
Miko O'Sullivan
Leave it to a Microsoft partnered news agency to equate marketshare to success.
I would argue that Linux is a raging success. How else can you explain a software product that costs nothing, generates little direct sales revenue, yet has thousands of developers world-wide supporting it, and is nipping at Microsoft's heels in the server arena?
Does Apple think it's software products are failures? With only about 5% of the desktop market, MSNBC would label Mac OS a failure. I don't use Mac software, but I imagine that Mac users like the software very much.
Software products are tools, and the correct tool should be used for the job. Windows for my mother, Linux for my development/server platform....and a Mac for something or other...i don't know.
I use a Linux desktop machine, and the progress that Linux has made in that arena in the past 5 years is amazing....and it's getting better by the day.
That doesn't sound like a failure to me.
-ted
You make me sick. Read the damned article, he's not making linux look bad. I happen to know him as well, he's a perfectly good writer, and happens to be knowledgable, unlike *ahem* others.
Who reads the stupid bannners?
db
Cig:
ôô
Practice random senselessness and act kind of beautiful.
Linux is not dead. In fact, Linux is growing faster that any other piece of software out on the market to date, for the past year or so. Think about it. When did YOU start to notice Linux. My 60+ father, who really can't use a computer that well, even heard of it. Enough so to mention that he would like to know more. I got about 2 minutes in and that was enough for him, but hell...that's more than he would listen to me when I tried to teach him windows.
The bottom line is, the reports of linux being dead...just makes it more ALIVE.
I for one just installed FreeBSD on an old computer. Not to mention, my company started using it in its products. Not the same, but it CERTAINLY is proof that 'free os's' are not dead.
Someone should actually spend the time researching how old Linux and FreeOS types of systems really are.
These OS's are built with stability and uniformity in mind. They are built to last. Unlike Windoze.
Did anyone tell them to look at Apple recently?
So you want a reliable Web server? Not windoze.
Oh well..I think I have made my point. I highly doubt we will see anything majorly negative happen to the linux or free os releases. Better collaboration will only serve to shut them up even faster. : )
Sorry about the mess...
These are also the same people that say that Windows 2000 (I won't defend 9x) BSOD's, freezes, crashes, and self destructs. If they are having those troubles, they're using some real shitty hardware. (or Realplayer...) I know this for a fact because my office is all running Win2k and it's my job to fix when it breaks. If it was crappy as they say, I wouldn't be near as active on Slashdot. heh.
Even my Compaq laptop can run for a week on Win2k without problems, and that includes heavy use of the Suspend feature.
"Derp de derp."
The average user does not care what kind of operating system he or she uses. The user does not care about explorer or mozilla or whatever. The user only wants to get the job done. If s/he has a _good enough_ desktop environmnent with _good enough_ applications then s/he will use it.
As soon as (or should I say if) Linux reaches this _good_enough_ level, it can compete. If not then it is doomed to fail (on the desktop). It's that simple.
First a small Pun... Linux WAS dead, it is now UNDEAD... www.undeadlinux.com Linux isnt doing that great, because too many of its users/developers are elitest in mindset. While linux is very powerful and useful when it works, it can be too difficult to configure/upgrade/install for the average PC users. This cannot be ignored or retorted to with statements such as "well you should know how to use a computer...". I am a Linux user, but I am rather new to it, and would have left it long ago, if not for an academic interest. But I think in a few years, Redhat, SuSe and Mandrake, will be competitive as desktop OS's. But for not linux is a server/network/acidemic/1337 affair.
Last night I compiled new kernel. And it kernel-panic'ed. So now I know why. Its dead.
Actually, KDE 3+ has come of age. I am an ex-Windows user who got tired of the way the VM kept bombing and longed for multiple desktops without multiple monitors, VM segmented ones mind you, and decided to try Linux. I am now using two linuxes, a purchased StarOffice 6.0(I like OOo and wanted better function helps and was willing to pay for that learning curve accelerator), Netscape 6.2.3 (which recently appeared) for Linux i686 (It is a P4 box), and many more mundane things like Evolution. I like KDE better than Gnome because of the way Sun Java 2 runs on it (which is a whole heap better than it runs on Windows), the way I can run 8 GUI desktops with 768 MB RAM without any conflicts while having access to 5 simultaneous TTY sessions(try CTRL-ALT-F2, CTRL-ALT-F3, and on through CTRL-ALT-F6, then use CTRL-ALT-F7 to go back to X from any of them and hop back and forth and resume low-level core tasks). Yes, it is a geeky thing, but VERY POWERFUL!
/? after finding it in DOS, or in soem Windows Ext instead of Extract. (what can I say, someone thought Morpheus adn Kazaa were more important than the Virtual Memory MAnager).
As for Windows not needing the command line, what is the most common answer to a complex conflict from tedch support??? "Reinstall (whatever)." And when that doesn't work??? "Do a full format recovery." Three hours later you have your generic installed desktop back. To FIX it, you could have given Windows what it wanted with an Extract run from either the CD or Windows itself FROM THE COMMAND LINE after a floppy boot if need be-- NO CLI???????!!! Windows sysadmins are familiar with the CLI in Windows (called DOS, though fancier titles are used). In many cases you need a DOS session and not a DOS prompt because Moicrosoft made the pathing very complex in the DOS PRompt and because the DOS layer will let you do things that the GUI will not (like extract, if you do this in Me with Me in Windows mode, ME will not accept the change.)
Query me this, your Me locks when you try to run the Java Debugger-- what do you do??? You boot from a Windows 98 or Me boot disk with CD-ROM support enabled if you do not have the data on a DOS-accessible HD, run Extract from a floppy boot, and put back the jdbgmgr file(s) that a virus hoax email told you to take off!!!
What do you do when your ME let you delete the VMM and then won't start after a restart???? You put it back with Extract. Extract
With a layered approach, I can fix from a HD boot or CD or floppy boot about 90% of the things that go wrong-- Windows just hid its layering.
John.
For number crunching behind a win98 front end and an elitist desktop it's probably alive and well. Embedded systems overall are in decline and since Linux was pushed so hard into the embedded world it's riding the wave down as an embedded operating system.
Maybe linux won't kill off Windows, but its replacement will.
Oh, you mean OS X?
Short answer? Yes.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
Well, the "title" has about 5000% more hits than the article itself. And actually, the people that read the entire article, the number would go up to 20000% or more.
So it makes sense. A title is 90% of an artice in terms of public impact. I am positive about this conclusion which you may argue. But I think some will agree.
unfinished: (adj.)