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Buying a Small, Light Linux Notebook Computer?
"I have no Windows software and will not be running any, not even via WINE. I have no
desire to go through the hassle of purchasing software I'm not going to use and
then fighting to get a token rebate that doesn't actually equate to the cost of a Windows license. Nor am I interested in buying a machine that was purchased with a Windows license, and simply having Windows erased with no refund given.
So far I've found iDot Computers, who will sell laptops with no OS installed. Unfortunately, their lightest,
smallest offering is a hefty 2.8kg brick, 3cm bigger than the iBook in width and depth. What I really want is something comparable to a Toshiba Libretto or Sony VAIO R505--except that neither of those companies want to sell me a machine without Windows.
I'm sure plenty of Slashdot readers have faced the same problem--what's the solution?"
Always this emphasis on performance...
a Jedi craves not these things, only affordability.
I know there is a Windows refund site somewhere, as long as you never click okay to a EULA you can get some money back...
File down an iBook.
Most of the major manufacturers (== cheap) have a contract with Microsoft which forces them to install Windows.
/y
from a boot floppy (if you can find a laptop with a floppy drive):
FORMAT C:
FDISK
Trust me. It is easier and cheaper--I got my Toshiba Satellite 1115-S103 for $500 and ditched Windows XP and am very happy with the results (cheap but usable).
http://emperorlinux.com/
... I say you just buy the machine you want. Don't want windows? Throw the disc out ... you want a computer right? Don't turn everything into a political statement.
The benefit? You get laptops with full knowledge of exactly what does and what doesn't work under linux.
The catch? You pay the same (or more) as you would in the high street and don't get the shiny Windows CD.
Frankly
Slashdot? Oh, I just read it for the articles.
dunno
Sharp has some pretty sweet VERY thin and LIGHT nitebooks. They have windows on em though. But easy enough to format :-) has all the ports you want, and more.
:-)
Actius UM32W is what it's called.
I have been on the same hunt as you for a month now
Have you looked at Qli Linux Laptops?
I feel for you. I recently was considering buying a laptop from Dell for network testing purposes. I emailed them asking if they would sell it without an OS as I wanted to only use Linux on it. I got no reply surprisingly enough, so I can only assume that they will not sell it without an OS. Keep trying though, I'm sure someone will sell it without an OS.
Small, lightweight, runs Unix, nice GUI, long battery life, etc...
I'm in a similar situation, only I've never owned a Mac. Anyway, I think I've decided upon buying a 12" powerbook (and yes, I read the reviews of them). Not sure if that's too rich for your blood but it sounds like a good deal to me.
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
that's what I did. it did come with win98, but I deleted it right off.
just be careful when buying used- I made the mistake of buying from a tradeshow and it took 2 months before I could get a usable one.
I did end up with a gateway solo2150 which is working pretty well.
if you're not playing games, a 600 mhz will work fine. I have kde 3.1 and openoffice on debian and it runs with little lag.
Looking for Book Reviews? Check out Literary Escapism.
I'll make an educated guess that 99% of laptop vendors will force you to buy Windows with your laptop. So, instead of purchasing the best hardware for your money by choosing from 100% of laptop vendors, you're going to limit yourself to the selection that 1% of the vendors provide. That makes a lot of sense. Good luck and keep dreaming.
www.powernotebooks.com
windows tax not required. was in a slashdot article awhile back.
Though the Microsoft tax has been levied on the system, you won't be adding to MS's coffers, and can get a jolly good 3 pounder for a grand or so.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I too havent found the right solution yet where i dont have to give some company money for crap i will never use. just please dont get pissed off and buy any laptop and pay the microsoft tax, becouse it just reports to there numbers as how many "users" there are. untill i find a solution that i can live with, and not pay MORE for the luxary of not having to purchase an operating system, i will not purchase a laptop. i am not afraid of doing without, and neither should you.
These are great cursoe based laptops and becides the software based modem everything is linux compatible.
here is a Link to the fujitsu website for it.
i have an older version with a slower 800mhz processor and 4 megs of video ram. it struggles with the latest divx encodes unplugged, but plugged in they display fine. The best feature is its real life 8-10 hour battery life. i could never go back to a 2 hour laptop.
Won't you be my my neighbor?
It's called a power book.
Yao and mini-me use 'em, why can't you?
"Anyway, long story short... is a phrase whose origins are complicated and rambling...." - Abraham Simpson
aslab
I'm currently buying linux servers from them, but I saw that they also have laptops
Called them today looking at laptops. Told her I did not want to pay for XP , she told me that removing it would void the waranty on the laptop! She suggested that I buy a bigger drive and do a split partion. I was disgusted that I Was going to be charged even more just to run linux. I am not even sure how software can void a hardware warranty. The call ended with them still having a laptop and me still looking.
Papa Legba come and open the gate
here is the url http://www.ecs.com.tw/products/desknotes.htm?subme nu_id=15&function_id=12
those seem to be sold without any OS and look like a decent notebooks - also there is quite a variety of them oferred for sale.
Try www.computerboulevard.ca for some Canadian pricing.
Try http://www.powernotebooks.com I bought my laptop from there and am very pleased. I did not buy windows with it because they give you the option. It runs linux great and they have a wide selection to choose from. From light to mobile workstation. Check it out.
Why don't you just buy an iBook. It seems to be your benchmark, so why isn't it suitable? Linux runs quite nicely on it and it has everything you have listed as a requirement.
Am I missing something? It's hard to get a better laptop for the money.
I recently switched to a new 12 inch iBook running yellow dog linux, and I have to say its great. Although it may not be as portable some windows superslims, its battery life, and performance make it a superb choice. Also, i have had zero driver issues with my iBook, which is a lot more than I can say about install redhat on my old thinkpad.
maybe you could find some usful info here too http://www.linux-laptop.net/
Just get an IBM X Series. I'm sure, but if you call them you miht be able to get a copy without Windows... if not "buy" Windows and then return it.
I know they offered systems without Windows in the past, as I said if you call you might be able to get a special order.
The guy who started the whole "windows refund" thing began the discussion right here on slashdot. LinuxMall's windows refund day site is down, but you can still find plenty of good info on Geoffrey's site and in the original slashdot article
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur
I've bought from www.eritech.com before. The laptop they shipped was in great shape and has served my wife well for two years. The laptops ship without an OS.
- No Windows Tax
- Firewire and USB
- 802.11b built in
- Radeon 7500/32MB 1024x768 @ 24bpp
- "the size of an ibook"
- $999 for base model
- Runs Linux PPC just fine
Since you've ruled out the iBook, I'd suggest that you look for a laptop that meets your requirements on the used market (eBay, local want ads, computer resellers, outlets that deal in refurbished and formerly leased equipment). Someone else will have already paid the Windows Tax for you, and the money you save will more than compensate for the time you'll have to spend scraping Windows off the hard drive and installing your operating system of choice.
k.
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
When I bought my Dell Inspiron 4000 a year and a half ago I complained (somewhat strongly) about not wanting to pay for an OS that I wasn't going to use...they ended up taking $50 off my order. I don't know if that was just an arbitrary discount to get me to shut up...but hey, better than nothing.
I've never tried them, and I don't even know whether they'd run linux, but I've seen "X-Book" laptops advertised at AccessMicro for under $1000 without an OS.
If you don't care about top level performance or good hardware, and would prefer to bitch instead about having to buy a copy of Windows, you could always look on ebay. Better yet, you could buy my old laptop. It's in great shape, and I'll toss a copy of linux on there for you. ;)
"Quoting famous computer scientists out of context is the root of all evil (or at least most of it) in programming." - K
I've seen this laptop on half.com, it's one hell of a deal:
P4 2.4Ghz/512mb DR/40GB/DVD/CDRW/USB 2.0/FireWire/56K/LAN/15" TFT for ~1200
No OS, no brand name. I have no idea if they are good are not, but they look decent.
-Jon
this is my sig.
Well, I know it doesn't really help, but I've got an Vaio R505 (Windows came on it but it's running linux now)... and it runs Linux just fine after some tweaking. http://www.resistive.net/linux7.html
I seriously doubt that those machines are "Microsoft Free": Emperor Linux most likely doesn't have the purchasing power to force Sony and other vendors to sell them machines without Windows licenses. Most likely, all they do is erase the Windows partition for you.
I got a really cute Toshiba Portege super-slim notebook. The guy at the used-computer store was almost reluctant to sell it to me in the first place--it didn't have an OS on the hard drive at all. I said, "Got a DOS floppy handy? Show me if it boots." He did indeed show me that it booted, and I said "Great, I'll take it." Got it home, and I had Linux running on it in no time.
The thing is great--it weighs about three pounds, I've upgraded its hard drive to a beefier 30G so it has lots and lots of storage, and I can take it wherever I go.
For more information about Linux on laptops, go to the web page about Linux on laptops; help can be found in the Usenet newsgroups comp.os.linux.misc or comp.os.linux.hardware
- Sam
The secret to enjoying Slashdot is to realize that it should not be taken too seriously.
Get an iBook. They're awesome. Or a 12" PowerbBook.
anyone interested in starting a low-budget campaign for ignoring computer performance increases: lets do it togeather!
/wrld
Consider a PowerBook G4. The 12" model is even smaller and more powerful than the iBook. You can run LinuxPPC or YellowDog Linux on it too.
i don't know about linux compatibility, but it sounds like in terms of HARDWARE you're looking for something like Fujitsu P-series or so. Fujitsu P-Series page. it doesn't have firewire, but it has everything else you want. here's a page talking about putting linux (debian) on it i think i've seen firewire pcmcia cards, so that might be the solution. I don't know about getting it without windows, but that's the breaks... Like another poster said, not *everything* has to be a political statement. You could just video tape yourself burning or shitting on your windows CD in front of a linux flag or something. ;)
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
Be prepared for a lot of sales people to go "Sorry, we cannot allow you to boot that CD".
Kind of ironic that you're not permitted to 'test' the machine you're about to fork out several thousand dollars for.
When I was last searching for a laptop I encountered this brick-wall mentality, consequently I ended up telling them "Oh, in that case, no sale, goodbye" ( Commissions obviously doesn't exist in sales any more ).
As for the reasoning behind the no-fiddle mentality, it's because they're afraid that you'll install some sort of hacker software.
Just because somebody mentions Linux, does that mean they can post an article and get a few thousand people doing their market research for them?
Geez, buy a couple of magazines, go to some vendors websites, use Google and find out wether the box you want to buy has been successfully used with linux yet.
On another note, I would like to clean up my garden using linux, anybody want to help?
I asked for a refund - and got my monkey back.
Sony Vaio r505's are running pretty cheap, even with the docking station. You won't be directly paying for windows since its not a new machine.
But some things (like paying for windows in the price of a new machine) you just have to live with. Afterall, many of us buy a car that has a stereo and speakers installed at the factory that we will immediately replace, but we don't insist that we are sold a car without them. Find a machine with the cheapest version of windows (XP Home probably) and cut your losses.
Now this could probably be considered a switch story..but I still use Windows/Linux, so it's more that I have just added one more to the list.
I recently acquired the last model of the PowerBook series. 15"/G4/1G RAM. I must say I am very impressed with the hardware, the size, the layout, etc. I'm still trying to get used to the Operating System.
I do a lot of Java Development, and have gotten my favorite IDE to work (Eclipse), and have gotten JBoss to run semi-succesfully. There are a lot of things to get used to though. The built in mouse has but one button, so you must ctrl->click to do a right click...that is annoying as heck. So, purchase an external mouse whatever you do.
being able to drop to the shell and be in a familiar place is very nice. Install Fink and you can apt-get your favorite software. There are a lot of apps out there...more than I thought there was (www.versiontracker.com).
All in all...I'd say get a PowerBook and leave OS X on it, and install your favorite Open-source software.
If you choose to wipe it clean and install a version of Linux...it is still very impressive hardware, so you should be in a win-win situation.
My two cents...
-= Xafloc =-
alinuxbox.com
N
Neocomputers.com will sell you a custom laptop. You can also purchase it without Windows on it.
Here is a link to the custom laptop page.
Welcome to the land of the free...pay toll ahead...no photography...please open your bag...
> I don't care about screen size so long as it can do 800x600.
800x600? You can't be serious! The high end of 1991? I remember the rollout of 800x600, between VGA and 1024x768. Yes, there was some XGA nonsense in there, but we got to 1K pretty fast, and that's rock bottom ever since.
Look, I'll admit the current pixel dance is sort of goofy, with 2Kx1920 or whatever, but 800x600? A reasonable low end is 1280x1024.
Ob disclosure: my Dell Inspiron 8000 is 1600x1200, and yes those dots get a bit tiny sometimes. But I dig it.
If there's one place where Apple kicks ass (and I'm of the opinion there are more), it's in full-featured notebooks.
Dude! You're getting an Apple!
"A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
then again, I vaguely remember Dell willing to provide computers without OS. not authoratative, though.
My life in the land of the rising sun.
I don't understand. It's ok to pay apple extra for the OS you're not going to use, but it's not ok to do the same when it's Microsoft? They're both souless, heartless corporations people. Bottom line for both of them is getting your money.
http://www.mtechlaptops.com/
They have a fairly wide range of laptops, all the hardware is supported by linux, and they will install with or without windows.
i don't think you'll find much lighter/smaller than an ibook, though.
-gleam
this
There are also a number of 2-4 pound laptops from Dell, HP, Gateway, etc.; that's what I have right now. They are considerably lighter than the iBooks, have comparable or better battery life, and are much, much faster. They often don't include the CD/DVD in the main laptop, but frankly, I prefer that choice; it's easy to plug a bus-powered CD/DVD into the USB2 or FW port.
You will effectively not find a notebook where you don't pay the Windows tax: the big manufacturers just bundle it that way, and if anything goes wrong with the machine, they will have you run stuff under Windows before even accepting it for warranty return (I have been there). Apple is no better: you can't get their HW without their OS, and they won't even support their laptops connecting to a non-Apple wireless access point.
He said it must be smaller than the iBook.
Please do not post laptops with 15" screens...
Notebooks are different in that they tend to be all-in-one solutions, so they tend to include the OS whether you like it or not.
The only way to assemble one is if there's a commodity hardware standard for notebooks or subnotebooks... but there's little chance of that happening since much of the size advantages of subnotebooks is a result of the tight intergration that an all-in-one solution affords.
So you're pretty much stuck buying something OEM.
Personally I can't see why you shy from an iBook. With an iBook, you're paying for Mac OS X anyways.. Although nothing is stopping you from installing Linux on it- once you give OS X a shot you'll probrobly won't need to.
Ok, so I understand the whole Microsoft Tax idea, but I think the same thing could be said for Apple. Why purchase a Mac just to wipe out the drive and install Linux? The higher cost associated with Macs is partly contributed to Mac OS X. I have an XP box, a Red Hat box, and an iBook so I get my daily dose of multi-OS use, and I can't figure out why anyone would pay more money for an iBook just for the hardware. There are plenty of laptop manufacturers out there that provide just as high quality laptops as Apple. Soooo, back to my point: If you don't plan on using OS X, don't buy a Mac!
than the ibook, though i must say i've carried around my son's ibook, and it feels great sizewise. and, they are pretty darn reasonable now. of course, the advantage of booting into osx for itunes and such makes it an even better buy. the g4 powerbook is larger than some of the supersmall x86 machines, but how many of those have slot loading dvd recorders?
These are a stunning laptop. I love mine. Only criticism is that it gets hot. They're small, light, firewire, 2x USB, DVD burner, good battery life, monitor spanning support, built in ethernet and modem ... the list goes on.
The catch is always software. With Mac OS X, you get great software. Better by far than any Linux configuration on the desktop. Want to burn a CD? Insert the bank CD, drag the files onto it, and then eject it ("do you wish to burn this CD?")
How easy is that? I don't have time to fsck around with cdrecord and mkisofs anymore. I just want to burn a goddamned CD. I just want to connect to a wireless network. I just want to watch a DVD. I just want to fire up emacs and write some code. I don't want to tinker and stuff around all day making things work.
So remember, hardware is half the story. Software is the other. If you can take the mac premium price, you get the best of both worlds.
Ash OS durbatulk, ash OS gimbatul, ash OS thrakatulk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul! Uzg-MS-ishi amal fauthut burgulli.
#rant_start
ive had an ibook for a year now and i love it! it comes with a *nix at "no" extra cost... BUT it runs linux great. ive got slackintosh running on mine with no problems. x windows, check. mozilla, check. power management, check. cd burner, check. dvd player, check. wireless, check. apple's kick-ass warranty, check. now, in your position id go with the new 12" powerbook. same size, but with a neato aluminum case AND a g4... heck its also got a 32meg geforce4, not bad for a laptop. but if your looking for price, you really cant beat an ibook.
#rant_end
"The chief enemy of creativity is 'good taste'" -Pablo Picasso
I bought a Dell Inspiron and finally got a Linux refund($125) but it took me hours on the phone and educating them. Two of my friends have also bought Inspirons lately and got their refunds with less hassle so things seem to be changing. However, when you call Dell the first time you probably still get a confident "no" from several people until you get to the right person -- just call back, talk to someone else, and be persistent until you succeed.
i don't think you can get an ibm without windows, but you may be able to make up for it other ways. i had a dell ispiron 8000 laptop that i hated, some of the keys broke in less than a year and the display hinge got loose real quick and the display wouldn't stay up unless it was perpendicular. so anyway, last week i just got my ibm thinkpad r32. it's nice and light. the screen does max 1024x768 which is kinda small for me, but that's what you get with a small light laptop. now back to the windows problem...the oem xp licence on the thinkpad is $90 and there was no way i could convince ibm to sell me the laptop without it. but i did get a 10% student discount which more than covered the $90. now i know my money still went to the evil empire, but i did get a kick ass laptop. now, i am actually a graduate student, so that's why i asked for the student discount. but i had to do no verification at all. when i called the customer service, i told them i wanted a laptop and that i was a student and they gave me a 10% discount with no questions asked. you could always do the same (even if you're not a student) and you'd make up more than the difference that you'd pay for xp.
btw - redhat 8.0 installed on the laptop with no issues at all.
Idiot.
You might contact a Micron PC sales rep and see if they'll provide a laptop with a version of Linux installed. If I remember correctly, I was able to arrange such a deal for a client... I don't see any option on their website so I might just be crazy :)
:) They are as light as 2 lbs, but you'll have to sacrifice a little speed. (2lbs is around 1 kg..)
You might also take a look at Los Alamos Computers. They aren't as light as you want, but they might be an option.
QLI is also an option, but weight is an issue again.
Finally, Emperor Linux has some very light looking machines
Good luck.. I don't have any experience with any of these companies except for Micron PC.. You might do a quick search on google next time...
This is exactly what you need. http://www.actonlinestore.com/smoreinfo.asp?iid=14 22
---- "Excuse me. Where's the children's gun section?"
dont you think your being too picky about this? it can never have windows installed on it..you just killed about any chance you had finding a notebook that fits those specs.
Perhaps when your a little more accepting of Linuxs place in the notebook/laptop industry, youll understand which notebook/laptop you can purchase.
"Humanize war? You might as talk about humanizing hell!" -- British Admiral Jacky Fisher
If you just want a good laptop, buy a Dell. They are relatively rugged, and there are lots of interchangable parts that work across models, etc.
If you receive a copy of Windows that you don't want, use it as a coaster or donate it to the Wine project or something. You'll be worse-off buying some no-name laptop just to avoid the included copy of Windows.
Amazing magic tricks
Here is something odd. As people have been posting links I have been eagerly following them. I am noticing a disturbing trend. Every link has led to a place that had laptops on average $500 to $1000 more than the same laptop from a major vendor with windows on it. I am starting to think that we linux lovers may be taking it up the butt the same way that vegetarians get reamed for "Organic" produce..
See a market , exploit that market and I think we may being exploited here.
Papa Legba come and open the gate
Desknotes are good so long as you know what you're getting, which is NOT a laptop. Desknotes are full-fledged computers with a small enough form factor to look like laptops. They come with no battery, and one isn't even available for most. Again, if what you want is a portable computer that runs off of wall current, then that's fine, just so long as you know that's what you're getting.
Get an off-lease IBM Thinkpad. I bought a Thinkpad 600x refurbed by IBM, upgraded the hard drive to a 30GB, 5400 rpm IBM HD, and then replaced the stock 650 MHz processor with an 850 MHz. After maxing out the RAM (just over 580MB), this thing cooks!
I keep looking at laptops nowadays, and keeping getting PO'ed at vendors that put a 14" screen in a 15" case. The damn thing looks nice, but is BIG and HEAVY. Then the keyboards on the 12" Sonys looks small. Why don't manufacturers keep making 13" displays???
QLI Linux has a few different laptops running linux and windows free, but they weigh in near 7lbs so that might be kinda heavy.
with an emperor(sp) laptop, you got a windows machine that simply has linux on it now.
In essence, your buying a windows machine. those laptops are all sonys and ibms and such. they bought the laptops, reformated the hard drives, and installed linux.
"Humanize war? You might as talk about humanizing hell!" -- British Admiral Jacky Fisher
I own an ibook, and I can say from experience that this thing runs linux flawlessly. The video card in the older ibook (Rage 128) is fully supported under current ppckernels, meaning full DRI and AGP, not software emulation. The ppc archictecture is well-suited for mobile devices because of it's lower power consumption compared to its intel counterparts. I can get easliy 3.5 hours of battery life on this thing running Xfree86, perhaps more in console mode. I hear the newer ibook batteries can perform even better. You have everything you need port-wise, including vga out under newer kernels (excluding modem, which no laptop these days offers under linux). Moreover, the 802.11b support is there. The design is nice and the case is modable (http://www.applefritter.com).
. org
If I were you I would decide now if you want OS X or not. If not than I would buy a used ibook online (rage128 based). You could easily spend less-than $1k on this. If you would like to use OS X and don't care so much about running linux than I would fork out some cash for the newer ibooks, which aren't as well supported in linux, or go for the 12in powerbook (go for the g-spot).
Some ppclinux sites which might be useful:
http://www.ppckernel.org
http://www.penguinppc
http://www.debian.org/ports/powerpc/
Remember that their is no such thing as a perfect machine. Everything is about your needs!
Slighty Smaller AND Lighter than the iBook - packs quite a punch as well. 5hr battery life (according to apple), built in CD-RW/DVD or DVD-R...
http://www.apple.com/powerbook/index12.html
I decided against saying something terribly insightful about the "Microsoft Tax".
/. populace will ram shit and vinegar down the throats of the companies that build PC laptops because they preload Windows on them, but it seems fine and dandy to pay for a notebook from another supplier, and get the OS you don't want there either. Why?
I *do* find it F*cking hillarious that you would buy and Apple notebook computer, and load linux onto it, and be just as happy.
OHMYGOD: Apple won't sell a laptop without an OS either. THE BASTARDS!
It's quite odd that the
You feel better about paying the "Apple Tax"?
Now, Merits of Mac OS X aside, if the poster wants *Linux* on the desktop, buying an iBook hardly fixes the problem, as a matter of fact, it does just encourages Apple, 'Cause no-one complains.
In an Ideal world, you could buy that notebook Windows free. Trouble is, welcome to earth. Suppliers like companies that build millions a year vs thousands a year. They get cheaper access to the components to build laptops. Even if you find a distributor that ships and OS-free laptop, the added cost for that distributor to build laptops in small quantity would drive up the price, most likely past the point of buying one with Windows included.
Buy the laptop based on what you want it to have, suck it up and chuck away the Windows or MacOS license. Or resell it on ebay.
Now, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
"...In your answer, ignore facts. Just go with what feels true..."
I have an IBM thinkpad a22m sure it came it with windows but it runs linux great. Linux supports all the hardware except for my 56k modem. I don't use it so I didn't bother to configure it. And out of the big pc makers they are the most linux friendly.
(One of the main reasons I bought this computer was because the retailer gave me a brochure which listed Linux as a supported operating system. At the very least, this allows you to take it back if Linux doesn't go)
Linux runs well on it, after a bit of a play with the drivers (support from the company hasn't been great, but it's easy enough to get everything working). It's a P4 1.7GHz (1.2 on batteries), VGA & SVideo out, a firewire port, 14.1" screen at 1024x768, 3 USB2.0 ports, CDR/DVD drive, onboard ethernet & modem, 1 PCMCIA slot and optional internal 802.11b. It's small, light, and it looks cool.
Best of all, it was one of the cheapest Notebooks I was looking at, $2800 AUD :)
Folks, Adelaide is a city with a "small town"
;-)
mindset... you know the one: "everybody knows
everybody"
I'd bet that G's dad's Cisco connections did
more to get G the cheque from Toshiba than
anything else, even if the dad in question
didn't have to lift a finger to make it happen.
I don't think that the not-so-well-connected
(read: needy, eg, student of Linux) computer
buyer would get the same hearing - let alone
a similar refund.
To test this: How many -other- Australians
managed to win similar refunds, at about the
same time (ie, even -after- G's [uncashed]
refund cheque was photographed & published
online)?
Not too many...
"Plenty of good info"...? Doubtful at best.
How good depends on how many, who do similar
footwork, will -ever- get -their- refunds,
in future.
Good means effective, not just -apparently- so.
Now, if someone had complained (eg to Oz's
ACCC), eg that vendor(s) were requiring them
to buy unwanted product/license/software from
another source, ie just to get the chance to
buy the computer they wanted to purchase...
-that- might have got a refund-right for every
Linux user.
But, no, that wasn't how G did it... He stopped
when he could show (without cashing) the photo
of his refund check... let the others do their
own haggling...
Read: Re-Invent the refund [paper-chase] wheel!
Result: -Lots- have visited the online photo
of the uncashed check but -few- have
got a refund of their own.
Com'on people, the only way to change this
is to work a bit smarter... & together... ie,
if you want to win, not just cheer-lead...
go to ubid.com and find a refurbished one - some come without OS, or just write over whatever is on it.
you get the most bang for the buck that way.
the vaios are thin, quiet, light, have firewire, and are excellent quality.
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
go with a brand new powerbook g4 17"....mmm i'll drool all over that. plus you can use ppc linux
It's been said, but not like this.
Look, what you really want is a PowerBook. You know it, everyone here knows it. You just won't admit it.
So let's compare features. The Apple certainly has no potential whatsoever of running Microsoft Windows except through some complete emulation/virtualization software. Score one for Apple. The Apple comes with an actual GUI far superior to Microsoft Windows (not even a contest) and much more polished than your typical UNIX GUI. Score another (or a couple) for Apple.
Want more? Well, your Mac is actually capable of running Microsoft Office should you later find yourself in a bind and be REQUIRED to deal with it to put food on the table. On the plus side, you can always pirate it and you don't need Windows or Windows emulation software to run it. That's worth about a half a point (MS Office isn't that great in my book). Your Mac will also be able to run just about any open source program you want. Furthermore, Apple has now even decided to provide an official version of X11 which they have even extended to allow full access to the OpenGL extensions. That means that you can create "lickable" GUIs using the X Window System.
But even if you don't want to run Mac OS X (and trust me, you will), you can always run Linux on it. There are several very good quality PowerPC distros available. Furthermore, even if you go this route, it still doesn't preclude you from running MacOS X (or 7 8 or 9 for that matter) using the mac on linux software.
And on top of all of that you'll be supporting a company who actually understands that it is customers that drive the bottom line; a company that creates GUIs that even your mom can understand, GUIs that actually make sense and help you get on with what you are trying to do-- especially if you are a hard-core geek.
So please at least consider the Powerbook. It's a sleek machine, it's extremely solidly built (well, the 12" model I hear leaves something to be desired, but the rest are excellent). It comes with a good OS. You can run Linux on it. And you're not supporting a company that supports Microsoft. In fact, you are supporting a company that actually competes with Microsoft (on some small level). A company whose CEO made a little deal with Microsoft and got a lot of gain for very little (putting MS IE in as the default browser, BFD).
In short: you know you want it dude!
I would have to agree. My girlfriend has a HP something or other (N6310 comes to mind) and the screen is a HPA (not quite active, but not quite dual scan ... aka it is dual scan) at 800x600 and it just doesn't cut the mustard.
Go at least 1024x768 Active Matrix - accept no substitute.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
NCal computers at http://www.ncalcomputers.com/ can put together a laptop to order. They speak Linux.
-- Will program for bandwidth
Am I the only one so far that has caught this paradox?
Basically this guy says he wants everything in a 12" PowerBook G4 but says he wants an IA-32 architecture notebook because he hears PCs perform better, then goes on to say performance doesn't matter.
I'd look at how a PowerBook performs compared to a mobile version of an IA-32 processor. Not how a Mac and a PC compare in desktops, especially since you're going to be running Linux, which I really don't know why you'd not go for the Mac because you get Mac OS X, Classic, plus the ability to run everything Linux runs with a recompile.
Not since Marie-Antoinette played milkmaid has looking simple and honest been so fake and complicated.
This is my personal laptop of choice. Smaller and lighter than an iBook. No firewire, but lots else to offer.
700mhz Mobile PIII
256 MB Ram
12.1" 1024x768 active matrix screen
Pointer style (like ibm) mouse.
Includes Base Station with CD-RW and DVD (1155 has CD-RW and Floppy IIRC). Laptop is a single spindle design. 2-3 hours on a charge. $1500
Heh, I've never run a display at more than 1024x768. I've used a 15" Acer monitor with my Linux machine for some time, the 12" LCD on my iBook, and my old 17" Apple Studio Display. I get sort of lost and confused at anything higher than that.
;) Enough for an extra icon horizonally! Isn't technology amazing?
Anyway, I'm all for bringing back 832x624. Anybody remember those Apple setups?
"I'll say it again for the logic-impaired." -- Larry Wall.
I just choose the hardware I wanted, and bought it. ;)
In this case a nice new Sony Vaio PCG-R505ECK
Yes, it came with Windows, but I also got the hardware I wanted.
As far as compensation for the "M$ Tax", I am now just *extremely* rude to M$ and the BSA when they call or send "post cards".
Dude, all you have to do is turn of APIC Advanced Programmable Interupt Controller, all your problems will go away.
Long battery life, decent performance, all the features, small, lightweight, more than 800x600
Someplace like, say, http://www.powermax.com or something.
GPL Deconstructed
i have a 12", 700mhz/256mb ibook. all my linux apps that i need are there. especially a nice vim port. i run X with gimp, and it runs great, while i am testing mysql/php on apache, have mail open, mozilla, and assorted other stuff. and it doesn't lag at all. i don't know what all the bitching about speed is about. of course i can't "compile a kernel in 5 minutes...", but i have all the power i need. no, i'm not playing UT2K3.
and, the best part, i get 3.5-4 hours battery, plus, the it truly is a laptop. i can leave it my lap for hours. everything just works. usb, firewire, cd-rw, etc. yes, i have gotten all to work fine in linux. i use linux in my classroom. have for a few years. i was thinking seriously about a dell, or powernotebook.com laptop. but i ended up with the ibook simply because it is a sub 5 pound unix laptop and i didn't want to pay the m$ tax either. if you measure the price, you're not giving up too much with an ibook compared to a PC laptop. and you're getting a ton more. just get minimum 256mb, preferrably 384mb.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
Buy a Used Laptop. Someone else may already have consumed a MS license on that hardware, true, but you will not be consuming one yourself. None of your money will be heading to Redmond (unless you account for the effect of resale value of hardware that was originally sold with a MS license).
:-)
eBay is a great place to start looking
The reason that it can be true that 1+1 > 2 is that very peculiar nonzero value of the + operator
I have bought several laptops from these guys and they are knowledgable and reliable. They have several OS choices including Redhat and none.
a ge =detail&id=62&country=us&pp=22&type=bu s
http://www.angelcomputer.com/cgi-bin/index.pl?p
Presenting the new 12-inch PowerBook G4, featuring a brilliant 12-inch active-matrix display housed in a durable aluminum alloy enclosure weighing just 4.6 pounds. The most compact full-featured notebook in the world starts at just $1799
t ml
from:
http://www.apple.com/powerbook/index12.h
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
i dont think the poster is neccessarily trying to make a statement. he just plain and simply wants a hassle free laptop without having to waste money on something he isnt going to use. not everything is about makeing a pro-linux statement.
Man, if you're looking at the white iBook and you say it's too heavy then you're in for a trouble. At 2.2 kgs that thing is light enough, lighter than about 90% of laptops there is. There goes 90% of your choice.
:)
Then you want one with long battery life, and most laptops nowadays have 2-3 hours. I approximate there goes another 70% of what's left of your choice.
Also you'd like one with USB, Firewire, ethernet, and wifi support. I think you can get USB and ethernet built in, and wifi is probably there too, but firewire is relatively new in the PC space, so you'll probably gonna need one in a PCMCIA card. The problem is usually PCCards are power hogs, so you won't get the full maximum battery life out of it. Beats me how iBook did it and still have a decent battery life. I approximate you lost another 60%-70% here.
The problem is you don't want to pay for windows at all. Most PC laptop manufacturer today simply don't want to bother refunding windows because most laptop devices require very specific driver to work. For example Toshiba doesn't even have a BIOS setup, all is done through an app in windows. The last laptop I've used that has a BIOS like in desktops (and you'll _definitely_ need one of it) is Dell. But none of Dell's models are lighter and smaller than the iBook.
So in conclusion:
1. Your choice is extremely small, if you did find one exactly like your spec, maybe it'll be just one machine with no other choice.
2. Some of your requirements are contradicting one another, try to loosen up in some area.
3. Even when you did find one, it'll probably be extremely expensive. Or, it'll be of very low quality from an unknown manufacturer.
I think your only choice is that iBook you're looking at in the first place. It's just a tad heavier and bigger than you like. The only other viable option is the Picture Book from Sony, but you'll have to swallow the windows license there.
I got the same problem before, as I already owned a Win2000 CD, and I needed to purchase two laptops. Mind you, I purchased them _in sequence_ and they blow up in sequence as well, so no two copies of them running at the same time, blah blah blah. In short me and my windows CD are perfectly law abiding. But no, I have to buy _another_ windows with each laptop I bought. Now I have multiple copies of 2000 and XP scattered around, and me end up paying MS tax multiple times.
It's pretty frustrating, I know, but trying to get what I wanted was extremely difficult (I needed a high performance one. Light, and small if possible) and the chance of finding it was small. In your case, it's very miniscule.
My suggestion is don't try to look for something that doesn't exist, you'll be wasting your time and energy getting frustrated. Get that damned iBook instead
I recently went through the same scenario and decided that I could buy a cheaper notebook with Windows XP Home on it than I could without it. So I purchased a Sotec. It is a 4.4 lb notebook with a beautiful 12" screen that does 1024 x 768. DVD/CD-RW combo drive and a SIS chipset. Linux (Mandrake 8.2) runs on it great. The best part is the notebook cost less than $900 You can check it out at Sotec. Office Depot, Wal-Mart and Sam's Club are resellers.
Ted Kitch www.tedkitch.com
Seriously, I use my iBook for everything I do, and take it everywhere I want. It's only 5 pounds and it is a full featured computer. I use it for photo management and home movie editing, music listening and recording, it acts as my PDA, I watch DVD's on the train with it, and I bring it to work every day and use it to perform all of the tasks that I can't/won't do on my PC. I have an Airport card which I use at home and comes in handy in strange places (like the new bar in the LIRR section of Penn Station!) I can hook up to my ReplayTV and stream recorded TV shows and movies to my laptop while on the throne. I burn music and video Cds wherever I want. I mange and charge my iPod with it. I can't imagine going back to a life without this machine, and I can't imagine someone thinking that it's too big!! It's so perfect to me that I really would urge you to just go for the iBook (or the new 12" Power Book if you have the $), you won't regret it. You may find an Intel based laptop that can do all that, but I guarantee you you will not find one that can do all that flawlessly and easily in such a small package - with or without Windows.
You didn't specify what exactly you want to do with your laptop, but given the ports and features you are requesting, these examples are a small representation of what you could do. If you go with the iBook, I guarantee you that you will do things on it you never would have bothered doing before because Apple has a way of making applications like iMovie that make the task simple, fast, and fun.
Sound waves should be free!
Check out an IBM X series ThinkPad. It's their ultralite series. Very nice. Many of the current Thinkpads can be ordered with 802.11b on a mini-pci card with integrated antennas.
They also sell the Thinkpads with Linux.
I have a need for QNX laptops, in support of a real-time application. Has anyone successfully run QNX on a laptop? (Preferably with decent graphics performance, not in VESA mode.)
I have a P2110. Very small. Widescreen LCD, 1280x768. Gorgeous screen. Just a bit over 3 pounds. DVD/CD-RW. 802.11b. Firewire. TV/VGA out. Runs Linux just fine. Transmeta 866MHz CPU (hello Linus). Long battery life (up to a full working day using a hi-cap battery and a modular bay battery.
Have a look at leog.net for lots of info on running Linux on these machines.
But it comes with an closed-source OS though, like 99% of the notebook in this class. Tough.
It might be possible to get a standard class notebook free of MS licences, but I doubt you can find one in the subnotebook class.
And I doubt that Apple will sell you one of those nice 12" TiBook without the OS so that you can put Yellow Dog on it. Call it the Cupertino tax...
---------- ovidius naso
With which OS?
I can't speak for Linux, but I currently have a Lexmark x83, USB mouse, and Digital Camera plugged into my 3 USB ports on my GRZ530 running XP.
Casio's Cassiopeia FIVA 2xx series (Page in Japanese only) has both Win and Linux installed by default, and it allows you to switch the boot block with external switch... It weighs just above 2lbs, supports 800x600, does have PC card slot, USB, LAN, 1394/FireWire port, CF slot and VGA port (with converter cable). The Crusoe 500/600MHz, 128MB RAM (upgradable to 384MB on most models) and the video interface with only 2MB VRAM can be a pain, but it is a decent combo they pulled.
:-P
Unfortunately its production has been halted, and in addition, the series were hardly distributed in US market. Of course, since this still contains some flavor of Win, I guess it still does not qualify for the original poster
though most notebooks are made by compal, asus, and a few others, all in taiwan, there is more to it than that. laptops have all sorts of parts and pieces that can go wrong. desktops are put in spot x and stay there. laptops go all over the place. so, 1) a company that stands behind its stuff is worth a c-note or more, 2) the qualtiy control and testing is better at name brands, also worth a few bucks, 3) there is more to a laptop then the sum of its parts, namely the monitor. you look at a crappy laptop monitor for a few hours, you're gonna go blind.
plus, lots of stuff such as hard drives and memory are left out. so, dell will put better ram and hdd in. i'm not pimping dell, hell, i own an ibook. just that i did the same a few years ago and bought a CTX laptop. first one didn't boot. back to circuit city. second one, dead modem. circuit city wants to send to ctx. f*** that, so i buy a pcmcia modem and nic. and screen is crap. and keyboard is lousy. but strangely, all parts linux compatible. laptops are not like whiteboxes. spend a few bucks more up front. it is worth it. laptops have a typically will be used longer than desktops. a bad desktop means 6months to a year. a bad laptop means 2-3 years. cheap laptops are pennywise and pound foolish.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
dynamism.com has great laptops from Japan most of them should run linux my favorite is the sharp it is 2 pounds and .54 inches thick. I've seen them in Japan and there are great. good luck
....you want to buy an iBook. Small, not MS Windows, yada yada yada, USB, Firewire, etc. YDL is free, as in beer.
Let's play Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. I'll be Pestilence.
I bought a Fujitsu Lifebook P-2000 Series and I love it. I'm not the terminal, Anti-Windows guy, so I got it with XP. In the customization part of their website, you can get rid of Windows, but your savings will only be what they pay for a copy of Windows; not what you would pay. My Lifebook has 2 USBs, 1 Firewire, 1 RJ-45, 1 RJ-11, and built-in 802.11b (not PCMCIA). It uses a Transmeta Crusoe Processor, 256Mb, 40Gb HD, It weighs 3.4 pounds and the battery life is ~3 hours. Other battery options allow up to 14 hours (I'm told). This thing cost me $1299 and it's awesome (except for the Win XP :-)
Also check out Laptops Inc. They have a good selection of used ones.
Good Luck!
Microsoft site licenses usually require companies to pay for machines which don't have Windows on them. I can only imagine that Microsoft makes the same requirements on computer vendors when they sell machines without Windows, or with some other OS. So even if you buy a new machine without Windows, you will probably still be lining Microsoft's pockets buying such a machine.
:)
And as another poster mentioned, you will probably spend way more money buying such a machine from some no-name vendor (and still pay the Microsoft tax) compared to the cheaper price of a name-brand laptop with Windows pre-installed.
One alternative for the poster is to sell a $50 pen with a free copy of Windows included
In case of fire, do not use elevator. Use water!
Look at Panasonic Toughbook R1 and T1
Torsten
Metamatic -
... so it worked for me) :
Sounds like you want a used machine. I would suggest looking on ebay and/or the computer refurb houses for a machine that is maybe a year old, go with a high quality manufacturer and it could still be under warranty (I personally like Dell, I have three within arms reach of me, counting laptops and my server.)
The only issue I see going with hardware that is a year+ old is the 1394 connection - but if it was top of the line a year ago it should have that connection (my last Latitude C800 did and it was a year and a half old.)
Note that you should be able to find a one year old machine for about half of what it cost new, but remember that today's hardware costs less than top of the line gear did a year ago and is much faster. Based on what I remember, you should be able to get whatever was top of the line a year ago for the same price as the entry level stuff new, but the entry level stuff is going to be about 1.5x as fast as the one year old top of the line machine.
I am not saying it will give you the best bang for the buck, but it will satisify your entire request. Personally I would buy a new entry level machine from Dell (or your favorite company) for about $750 delivered and then toss the XP CD / license in your closet. Add some aftermarket RAM and networking gear and you are all set - for about $900 including the 802.11b.
I just checked, Dell has a laptop (the Inspiron 2650C) on sale for $700 after rebate (yes, rebates suck but I did get mine back
14" screen XGA
128M RAM (www.crucial.com)
20G hd
24x CD
16MB DDR 4X AGP NVIDIA GeForce2 Go(TM)Vid
Floppy
Integrated 56k modem and NIC
1 year warranty.
If you didn't want to jack with the warranty ($150) you could get the 802.11b PCMCIA card and a 802.11b router (I didn't bother to read the details) instead. Brings the price of the system to $850.
Upgrade to a 15" screen for $50.
Nice.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
"Linux has a harder time with some of the ultra-small notebooks; they use weird proprietary drivers which Linux does not support a lot of the time." Enh. I'm running an ultra-small (Portege 2000 and the only thing that won't work is the modem. Which sucks for just about every laptop out there, regardless of size.
Read Bujold. Free (as in
Already is running RedHat, and I'm throwing in a 802.11 card. It's a cel 1ghz, 20GB hard drive,
256MB ram. It has a pretty small form factor (13.1"), and is a Toshiba 2805.
I'm selling it w/ 802.11 card, carrying case, and Linux preloaded for $800 (Negotiable)
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
Netlux
They have some decent laptops for cheap. For weight, I seriously doubt that in any way you are going to beat an ibook. You will have to decide, is the size and cost going to beat the weight and possibility of the MS tax.
The netlux machines work well, my brother uses one on a constant basis, but it's really up to you.
Seems a lot of people only get a $20 refund when they bitch about the "Windows Tax". Some mention $125. So let's say you're lucky, and could get $125.
/. readers). My personal computer is Wintel-less (Athlon + FreeBSD).
I bet you anything that the off-brand laptop you buy for $x will spec out less than what you could get from Dell for $x+125.
Plus you won't get the service, warranty, etc that you would from a huge name like Dell.
From a monetary standpoint, it makes no sense. If you need to pacify your conscience, consider the inclusion of Windows with the laptop as something to make it more resellable later on down the line.
Consider this analogy: I buy a car with the full intent of gutting the audio system and putting in my own custom one. But I don't bitch and moan that I can't get one WITHOUT a stereo included. Why? Because later on, when I go to resell it, I'll put the factory one back in. Try reselling your car without a stereo.
Disclaimer: I hate MS more than most people (but about par for
The iBook/Powerbook will make you a happy motherfucker.
You can get going with Unix on there right away, no need to install a new OS, no M$ tax. When I first opened up terminal and typed "vi" on A FUCKING MAC, I literal spunked. (Well I was checking out some Aria Giovanni at the same time which might've had something to do with it, lemme tell yah that bitch is *GRADE FUCKING A*! Anyway..back to this mac shit...)
I enjoy fucking around in Linux on my desktop, but sometimes you just want to open the damn computer and burn a fucking CD, or connect to a web site and look at the goddamn Flash shit without any hassles. Don't listen to those PC cocksuckers: Mac hardware is perfect in the laptop form factor. You'll be shocked to learn that batteries last more than an hour or two on the Mac, furinstance.
The Mac is good shit, you won't be disappointed with that new shiny aluminum fucker, that's for sure. You'll be like a schoolgirl that just discovered her pussy, playing with it all night long. Fuck yeah.
Get the iBook. The smaller iBook is extremely light and portable and WELL worth the investment. I am EXTREMELY happy with mine.
They have all the features you're looking for, except the weight, and they are all available without Windows.
If you think 2.8Kg is a "brick", then I think you're up a creek. (My M-Tech is a 10.8-pound cinderblock by that standard :)
The 25RG is the smallest. It's also damned expensive, since it's their "semi-ruggedized" model (spill-resistant, gel-coated screen, etc).
I have bought two computers from them, and have been very happy with them. Both run Linux just fine, though I haven't tried the newer hardware out under Linux lately.
- The Sigless Wonder
Well...my VAIO has that....builtin Orinoco, ethernet, firewire, and USB. And it's lightweight (2.75lb).
They basically ignored me until I told them that I would never buy a Dell again. (Which has more to do with poor design (who puts the hard disk and cdrw on the same ide controller?) and poorer customer service (they refused to sell me a replacement video card, so I bought one from ebay). Piggybacked on to this was the "whom do I email about returning this bundled software", and they completely ignored that question.
So, this is what I did.
1.) Don't boot the software.
2.) Don't open the software.
3.) Since you have not agreed to these licenses, the "thou shalt not resell this" does not apply to you.
4.) So, I resold the license to a guy at work for $50. (There was no real OS CD, just a recovery disk. However, he had one already, so I just sold him a license).
5.) In theory, you could sell this on ebay, but I've heard of MS using its' clout to pull those ads.
Of course, there is another reason to actually fight with the OEM - MS can no longer publish those "we run on 95% of all consumer PC's sold", when what really happens is that many people wipe the disk and install another OS. (I'd call it perhaps 25% dual boot, and maybe another 10% just do 1 OS.)
IBM ThinkPads work well with Linux. You might have to sell the farm to afford one, but they're quality.
I had no problem talking with most sales people about linux. Most of them had no clue what it was, but I did bring a bootable bussiness card (http://lnx-bbc.org) and they didn't have too much of a problem leting me boot it after showing them the website. It doesn't exactly prove that everything will work, but it does prove that you are able to run a lot of stuff, most importantly that you can get the kernel to load and X to work properly. Bring knoppix or demolinux if you want, if they have a problem with it, just go back later and stick the cd in and do a hard reboot. If anyone questions you just say you're seeing if it will run what you want, most of them will leave you alone after that, if they don't, walk.
There will be none of that here
Look, I don't do gaming, but I do...do high end AI and EE-Circuit Processing. Buy a Dell for $1200, and just reformat it. The Linux Revolution will still progress.
Visit http://store.apple.com/ then click the 'special deals' red tag in the lower-left corner. Bang, Apple-refurbed products, most notably the $800, 600 MHz iBook. It might be heavier than you want, but the screen goes to 1024x768, and at that price, it might be worth looking at again. Also, 22" flat panels for $1349. woo hoo! Otherwise, hit eBay for a used VAIO.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
I've been looking at a Fujitsu Lifebook
Alas they come with Windows. :(
Dell configures laptops with redhat installed . Check out this link. They do a pretty good job of that. Not sure about firewire though.. But you could buy them seperately
p ro ducts.htm
http://www.dell.com/us/en/esg/topics/linux_000_
Don't know if they're this X-Technology, but if so, I'm not sure I'd risk it.
"If he thinks he can hide and run from the United States and our allies, he's sorely mistaken." Bush on bin Laden
Try Emperor Linux , and tell them Vin (another future customer) from NYLXS sent you. We have another user that has one (the small one with the cam), and it is fantastic. And their support is fantastic as well.
They offer small libretto style laptops, with gnu/linux installed, and they know and support what they sell.
Now if I could just scrape up the coin to buy one myself...
I'm sorry, I know this is a little offtopic, however, it needs to be said.
Quit it with the DAMNED cheerleading. It seems that every chance anyone ever gets to mention a distro they like or they think is superior in any way shape or form they must at all cost mention in any obscur way. Slashdot's advertisements aren't as effective as these comments. People actually read these comments and mod them up thinking "Wow what an ingenious . . ." whoa, hold on a second that's an advertisement for another Linux distro--GEEZ!
By the way visit redhat.com
Cheers!
It's weird when you think that Linus Torvald works at a notebook CPU manufacturer. Just an interesting thought.
Anyone willing to murder plant life so they can eat deserves to get reamed. Royally reamed.
If you dont break the seal of the windows CD, then you can return it and recieve a refund because you aren't agreeing to the EULA. This should work on many computers that come with windows
Auzy
Dell 's Ebay Store currently there's 75 laptops, and most of them are naked.
Insightful: 76, Off-Topic: 379, Flamebait: 24, Funny: 152, Interesting: 201, Underrated: 55, Troll: 9, Total: 896
might have something to do with the way you come across.
;-)
the way you look, smell, sound...
time for a hard look at yourself
i've had the same problem, so don't feel too bad.
It's so slow it isn't funny. On a G3 400mhz Powerbook with some obscene amount of RAM it's horrendously slow.
On a G4 450mhz tower it is still incredibly slow.
Dude! Try ordering a laptop from the link you provide yourself, and let us know how far you get. Then provide a better link.
Or go get your fuckin' shinebox!
I like 1024x768, but I have three monitors, so it's more like 3072x768. :) It's nice to not have to screw around with fonts for 100 hours trying to make them big enough to see.
I have a Sony U3 that I just got in Japan, and I tried to install Red Hat on it. Ha. Red Hat had no idea what was going on, it couldn't find a sound card, anything to use the extra buttons, jog dials etc. and the resolution was terrible. Needless to say, I put my M$ back on, cried, and then slipped it into my shirt pocket.
This is my digital signature. 10011011001
Only God knows how many services are running on a Windows Server. The system administrators surely never do. You know why? They aren't God.
However, on a *NIX based system, the Admin is actually equal to God on that server. Allowing that on Windows would defeat Microsoft's purpose of having control of everything.
Anyway, 600Mhz, would be much more then fine for a Linux desktop/laptop system. Heck, it would even be good as a server. As a good "for instance", I have a PII 350 with a 32MB TNT2 video card with the Accelerated 3D graphics drivers from Nvidia. I tell you, it's not the fastest, but it is able to run an Open Source game called "Racer!" pretty well.
You should see the graphics and the tectures in this game. The detail that was done to the vehicle models is very impressive. I can honestly say that under Windows, you would need a machine at least twice as fast to be able to display the graphics this game displays under Linux.
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
Someone above mentioned the Fujitsu P-Series, and I have to second that. I have a P-2110, which has an internal DVD/CDR (often external or in dock on ultraportables) and just about everything else that you would want. Well, as long as you don't want to play serious games on it. It runs a Crusoe processor, with decent performance. The whole caboodle weighs in at a trim 3.5 pounds.
I am running Slackware 8.1 on mine, and everything works. There is also a good community for the notebook, located here.
The newest models also just came out, which have better video cards too. I'm very happy with mine though. The 10" screen (which is widescreen, BTW) can be tough on the eyes, but if you're looking for a good, Linux-running ultralight, this is one to look for.
The way you closed out implies you're kidding, but for those who take this seriously, the only reason the guy mentioned Knoppix is because you can boot into a full Linux system from a Knoppix CD without even having a hard disk.
I would like to know if any retailer actually splits Windows from a laptop when a customer requests it and then installs THAT version onto a desktop machine for someone else. Is such a thing even legal (I assume it would be)?
BZZZTTT! Wrong!
It's not that USB can't work. It's just that the ACPI implementation in the kernel currently sucks rocks, and most Sony laptops seem to use ACPI to assign IRQ's. Add the ACPI patch from the acpi project and all that problem goes away. SuSE 8.1 does that for you, and their kernel maintainer keeps a cutting edge, functional kernel around. The Linux-Sony Mailing Lists have all the info needed to get everything working under Linux. Everything.
I have an SRX-87, which is significantly smaller than an iBook, functioning completely and without exception with Mandrake 9.0 and a patched vanilla kernel. Firewire, USB, 802.11b, DVD - the works. Wait - I haven't tried the modem. I hear it works too, though.
It's the same thing that Emperor Linux rebadge, and lots cheaper from BestBuy.
I'm very happy with mine.
Ce n'est pas un vrai mouvement de robot!
Just wondering-the author was looking to buy an iBook, but is blantantly opposed to paying the M$ tax. What about the Apple tax that come with Apple hardware? Apple won't sell hardware without an OS.
The iBook is cute, but, IMHO overpriced. Moreso, the lack of a PC Card slot and the lack of IR means I won't be getting one.
The author is going out of his way to avoid giving MS any money for something he won't use, but seemed to have no problem paying apple for software he won't use. My point is perhaps he should not be outright opposed to buying windows if he gets a better machine. Windows "only" adds maybe $30 to the cost of a PC.
Anyone know where to get a laptop with "easy" financing options? ie. no credit, but no bad credit either. No luck with the big names (Dell, HP). Would be nice to pay over 6 months or 12 months or something.
Our company disposes of old technology from companys accross the United States. and for a couple of hundred dollars you can get a used laptop with no os installed for next to nothing. then add the features you would like.We don't offer any os so we do not pay microsoft.All data is wiped off the systems.(clean slate). I have loaded linux redhat on a 133mhz laptop with 64m of ram and 3g hd. and it works just fine.So if you are willing to configure the system your self. look on e-bay or other auction sites. Our site product changes daily. (I will not leave the site address or name.....I don't beleive in using a forum like this for promotion of the company i work for...if you are interested e-mail me and i will give you the information.) I enjoy this site and don't want to open a pandora's box of company promotions....that would suck.I learn alot of new information every day from this site.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.
i dont know what your priorities are, BUT, most of the ultra-light portables that people have suggested here do NOT include a cd-rom/dvd drive integrated into the laptop. either they are on a docking station OR an external casing connected through a usb/firewire port.
whichever way, the docking station/external drive means that it is EXTRA weight, if you want to use your cd-rom/watch dvds/yadayada while on the move. how inconvenient having to plug in a cd-rom/dvd drive.
also, there is the issue of wireless. ultralights (correct me if i'm wrong) usually don't have a pc-card slot. and pc-card wi-fi cards are battery HOGS.
what i find absolutely remarkable is how apple are able to fit in a cd-rom drive with firewire/usb/modem/airport card/ethernet port/etc. in a casing that has a 12 inch screen.
so looking back upon it, the ibook/powerbook isn't really a heavy thing is it?
one other thing, if you buy a windows laptop is the issue of driver compatibility when you switch it over to linux. i find it hard enough trying to upgrade my friend's compaq winme to win2000 due to a lack of drivers. linux on that i won't even bother.
that's why i recommend a 12 inch powerbook or ibook. driver compatibility with ppclinux is not as big an issue.
If you read up on the DeskNote you will find that all models support an external battery, they charge extra but still well under the cost of extra batteries for normal laptops.
The battery is external and comes in handy if your just going to plug it into AC in a motel room. (don't have to lug the extra weight.)
You can also buy the desknotes with linux installed at no extra cost (Turbo Linux I think.)
The only down sides I have found is the lack of pcmcia support and the need to buy an external floppy (perhaps the last is a plus side?)
Discountlaptops.com eems to have an excellent selection, good prices, and no Windows. Check them out. I don't actually have any experience with them, but they seem like a pretty good dealer.
What you need is an IBM Thinkpad X30.
It's got 2 USB, firewire, DVD/CD-RW slimline, builtin ethernet, ATI Mobility, 1024x768 14" screen, a PIII-M cpu at 1.2GHZ that sips power (almost 4h on one Li+ battery) and also doesn't burn your legs, even optional builtin Wifi. It is incredibly light, even the docking station (which is a little extra "layer" that holds the slimline CD/floppy and another battery). The footprint is smaller than most, but the reduced weight = happy hacking anywhere.
Redhat 8.0 works divine on it (detects both batteries, wireless and IEEE1394). No messing around with it.
Whole deal will set you back between $2000 and $2400.
Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
or you could try virtual linux-(bootable cd based on mandrake 8)
That's not only not paying (well acually you are but not to microsoft and probably not very much)
but also ridding the world of one potential windows user. As near win-win as you'll get in my opinion.
check these guys out http://www.m-techlaptops.com/indexofnotebooks.htm they might have what you want without windows.
I will not purchase Windows!
I can recommend many places you can "obtain" Windows without purchasing it.
Cyde Weys Musings - Scrutinizing the inscrutable
This small and light notebook works fine with Linux and it can be had for $700 on eBay. The only thing that doesn't work is MIDI
data dies
Not a whole 3 cm!!!!! That's like half an inch!! I'll just DIE if my laptop is 3 cm larger on 2 sides than my friends!! What am I going to do?????
A LITTLE offtopic? ...
Speaking of saving money on the "MS tax" and other things you wouldn't use, there is a new class of portable computer that I've been waiting for that's finally here. It's called the Desknote and it is designed to be user-configurable and user-upgradeable, and doesn't come with a battery. Some of them don't even come with screens, which make an ideal portatop when moving from home office to remote office. It can be ordered barebone-style or complete. Just search google or Yahoo shopping for "Desknote" and you'll find them.
Kris
Kriston
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this laptop...I have been considering it for a while. It's beautiful, light, and sturdy. I've had a chance to ogle it in the store a few times, and I think it is the most compact laptop you can find without going the way of the half or quarter sized screens (a la libretto or the new sony palmtop that runs XP)
It is lighter, and thinner than equivalent Sony's, and much cheaper. Dell's recommended retail is $1599, but you can get the price down a little, and even buy refurbished for much less. I don't think you can get this much for so little anywhere else.
Yes, it does come with Microsoft tax, but I think if you wanted to, you could get it pre-installed with Linux. I seem to remember a hidden page on Dell's website that talks about getting a corporate account, and requesting custom installs of OS's, including Linux on laptops. (even though they don't offer this as an option on the regular consumer/home office links)
But, I bet you end up paying more for this in the end anyways. (especially if you just order one)
I have also been very tempted to go Apple, but they really are beasts. They're laptops, not notebooks. (although dvd-ram on the go is pretty sweet)
The Dell X200 is about the size of 2 wired magazines, and weighs almost as little (2.8 lbs).
Also, it has a 'Mini-PCI' slot, which can accomodate a wireless LAN card. (Is Mini-PCI standard now?)
I was able to purchase a ASUS laptop through a small supplier with no OS installed. I then ran linux on it :)
It seems that ASUS laptops can be bought without an OS. Hope this helps
Atmospheric Computing (www.atmospheric.biz) also sells laptops with no OS installed. They'll even install and configure Linux for you free of charge.
I highly recommend Sharp's Actius line (Mebius in Japan). They are fairly affordable ($1700 for a UM32W), are powerful with a real PIII 1 ghz, and have a true battery life of about 8 hours with extended life battery. And you can buy these at Circuit City now and get their good extended warranty. I'm not sure about Linux compatability, but the main issue here is ACPI support which is still a little spotty with Linux.
Basically, if you buy a real laptop like you're describing it's going to use ACPI for power management and you're going to have to do some patching or use beta kernels to get that support in Linux.
I've done extensive research on ultra mobile laptops and Sharp seems to have done it best. Research for my own purchase that was a Sharp, not in any professional capacity that is.
1. Dell, Gateway, Compaq, HP don't understand ultramobile. Their latest models are no good. Either over weight, have poor battery life, or are simply not competitive design wise (brick-sized AC adapter, etc).
1.5 Sony doesn't really have a good ultra-light laptop. They have a SlimTop, but that's over 4 lbs and gets bad battery life. It's also horribly overpriced and constructed of plastic. They uttery stupid picture book is horribly over priced, performs poorly, and is much better replaced by a Fujitsu P2000 which offers much more for much less money (and an internal drive for free). You could buy a 6 megapixel digicam with the money you save and still have some left for a nice notebook case.
2. Toshiba's Protege 2000 series is good but costs a good $600-$700 more for the exact same laptop from Sharp. On top of that Toshiba's have had a poor track record with maintenence and with class action suits for falsifying specs. Also the Toshiba has horrid battery life, at only about 5 hours with the extended life battery compared to the Sharp UM32W's 8 hours.
3. IBM X series is the creme de la creme of laptops. It's slightly heavier because it's actually a 2 spindle system, but you can swap out the cdrom for another battery to get "10 hours" of battery life, so they claim. You also get that trademark IBM keyboard, which is really important since laptops of this size generally don't have the thickness to get highly tactile keyboard in there. The downside to the IBM X series is the first-born premium you'll have to pay to get it.
4. Fujitsu has a good laptop in the P2000 series. It'll give you the dvd/cdrw combo drive or a modular extra battery, and I can always see situations for either. It's also very affordable at around $1500 base. One major problem is screen size. Most of the other notebooks I mentioned have a full height 12.1" screen. The Fujitsu has "widescreen" 10.4" screen, which basically means you're getting about and 8" worth of screen real estate. I'm also suspicious of its less-than-full-size keyboard which can get cramped in the ultra-mobile weight class. The final blow to this otherwise good laptop is its poor performing Crusoe 933mhz chip. In benchmarks the Crusoe has generally offered little extra battery life (since most power is consumed by spindles or the screen and hardly any in the processor) with a NOTICABLE drop in performance.
5. In America Panasonic only releases its "ToughBook" line of laptops, which basically conforms to more stringent shock absorbancy standards. The new-er ToughBook T1 is full featured, fantastic, small, good battery, etc. I particularly like the SD memory card slot so you don't have to fiddle with cables and draining your MP3/digicam battery life to transfer songs/images. But this is super premium priced at about $2500 base. For the extra price you'll get a generally well designed laptop that supposedly can withstand a good drop. Not something I'd ever try after paying that much for it.
6. Finally, the Sharp. It has a real PIII ULV processor, looooong battery life (8 hours with a single extended life battery), and very good performance against similarly configured laptops. It also costs much less than the nearly identical Toshiba ($1700 vs $2400). It also has a pretty good keyboard that offers a full 3 mm key travel (distance the key goes down when you press it, more means more tactile) instead of a typica 1.7mm or less of every other notebook I've mentioned. Finally, it's well constructed mangesium allow casing with a bang-up industrial design. I especially like that it's the lightest, SMALLEST AC adapter I've seen (3.5" x 2" x 1"), which adds to the travel weight tremendously with laptops like Dell makes.
For my considerations, I was most interested in 3 things. 1) Size/weight. 2) Battery life. This first two criteria generally favored 1 spindle machines with an external cdrom. I never need a cdrom on the road, and if I did then you'd have to consider carrying all those cds with you where you go. I just use ethernet and pull stuff off a remote machine. 3) Keyboard quality.
The size had to be under 1" thick. The Sharp and Toshiba are about 0.7" thick. It had to weigh around 3 lbs. Most of these were under 3, the Sharp being 3.0 with a little added for the extended life battery. The Toshiba and the Fujitsu B series (touch screen) had horrible battery life, only getting around 4-5 hours with the extended battery. Sharp gets 8 on a single extended life battery. The Fujitsu and IBM use an extra modular bay battery plus an extended life battery to break into the 10 hour range. Finally the keyboard. Most of these offer a nearly full-size keyboard, the Sharp offering the best key travel. The IBM the best construction. Take into account features such as USB 2.0, firewire, 802.11b, etc and then the price, and the Sharp wins easily.
Things not considered were obviously game performance and other bullshit you would be stupid to try and do in a laptop. The best video card for a laptop is the Radeon 9000 mobile, which is barely as good as a Geforce2 from 3 years ago.
Finally, all of these laptops have Windows. These are the good ultralights. You won't find any others and they certainly won't have Linux preinstalled. Get over it. The closest thing you're going to get is the larger clam-shell Sharp Zaurus.
>catch is if you want to buy from them you're going to need to order in bulk just like Dell do.
Naww, just buy it used. If the submitter is so hot to make a political statement then buy it used. The MS tax has already been paid. MS is not going to make more money from ebay. The end result is the same. MS makes zero more dollars this way.
http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com
They sell Apple hardware with Yellow Dog installed.
There is an obscure manufacturer of SPARC-based notebooks going by the name of Tadpole. These are marketed as portable Solaris systems but I'd bet some flavor of Linux will run on these (Aurora Linux comes to mind).
First Post Bitches
If you are serious about using this laptop for linux (or any X based interface), keep in mind that the Powerbook pointer only has a single button.
Just as I was about to purchase one myself (um, the 17" though), I came to my senses. My G4 desktop has a USB optical mouse with scroll, etc. and even the OSX portion uses the extra buttons, for the most part, but being stuck with a single button pointer while mobile would be hell.
Must have USB and Firewire, built-in ethernet, and 802.11b support ... Small is important, lightweight is important, long battery life is important. I don't care about screen size ... Performance isn't a major concern... don't play games ... will not pay for windows
uh, get an ibook? oh wait...
seriously, ibook + osx + fink + apple X11 == everything you want in a linux laptop, except for the ugly fonts. If you're dying for more speed get the new 12" G4 Powerbook (~$1700), which is just like the ibook only smaller in every dimension, and faster.
why exactly does your current ibook fail your requirements, anyway?
Here's the catch: I will not purchase Windows!
So find the model you want and look for it on eBay or some other outlet for used hardware.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
If you've decided to acquiesce on the "no-Windows" stance, I'd suggest looking at the CNET Notebook section for info. There are sections are for value as well as thin and light notebooks, among others, and looking through those sections is a lot quicker than navigating through the separate laptop sections on each manufacturer's website.
My take on notebooks (currently); wait. Banias is around the corner (March 12 last I heard) bringing +3 hour battery time coupled with excellent performance (it's easy to find slower laptops with significantly longer battery times though). Cost will be an issue (if you're looking at sub-$1500), so I'd suggest waiting even longer after Banias. Having performance, price and portability all in one laptop is about to become possible though; all you need to do is hold off from purchasing for a bit more.
Despite their battery problems as stated in a previoud article (which I have yet to see, as mine only drains heavily when using my wirelss NIC), from what I have seen there are a lot of ThinkPad 600* reconditions coming back to IBM and appear in new condition if the one I purchased on ubid.com is any indication. With my 600E 400MHz Pentium II Mobile, I just pulled the stock RAM (32MB), toss in a pair of 128's, add that in with the 32 built into the mobo, and it runs great.
or even better, go Apple. I have heard great things about their battery life, and their hardware is really top notch as far as self-compatibility goes. The biggest reason I went IBM: good deal on the recondition, and their leanings towards promoting linux appears to have inspired them to provide drivers for said operating system. (not on the standard support page, but on their search system, you can find at least plenty of info...I didn't need it. it was all pretty much autodetect.)
I will of course grant that it came with Win98SE, but it was paid for years ago and will not be supporting Microsoft any more than the AOL cds you get in the mail and use as cup coasters support AOL.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
It looks like antelope is doing something different w/ their MCC stuff from IBM - split the display and input device out and save on weight - would be a nice setup with a monocle and a flexi-keyboard .. or you could try the SparcBooks which are unfortunately a little heavy (3.5kg) .. if it's size you're after - I'd look to the Asian market trends which tend to value the smaller size much more than the fat fingered lazy Americans and Europeans - the Sharp Zaurus PDA comes to mind there, and even smaller vaios only available on the japanese market (i started using a U1 a while back and love it) .. for durability - take a look at what the US gov't is doing for the military - there's a big push away from MS there and good luck! I think the real battle is away from the X86 instruction set - the majority of MS code is too embedded on this dependency!
Get a Walmart computer with Lindows on it. Lindows is basically Debian Linux with a friendly GUI installed on top. You'll have to reconfigure it manually, as it comes with "root" as the default login (not good). But, if you know anything about Linux, shouldn't be hard to add an account and login under that.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
Errr, before you get all excited. This model has no internal battery, and if you want an external battery you have to pay more.
Definitely check out the HP Omnibook 5x0 series. Great, lightweight machine. Can't help you with the Windows license issue though.
japanrush.com has nice slick sony viaos imported from japan and they CHARGE EXTRA for windows.
So don't pay!
"Not my manner of thinking but the manner of thinking of others has been the source of my unhappiness." - M
I'd say get the iBook if you're so antimicrosoft. Then you have the benefit of being able to run OS X, -or- linux -or- both, and you're giving money to an enemy of Microsoft. Your enemies enemy is your friend right? And those iBooks are slick, my gf has one, its really nice.
There are a couple of serious problems with using Linux on a 12" Powerbook.
The worst is that it uses an NVidia graphics chipset. NVidia doesn't release drivers for Linux running on PowerPC hardware, so OpenGL won't work. The larger Powerbooks use nice Radeon chips, but they weigh quite a big more and are far more expensive.
There's another problem that people laugh about, but which really is a problem: They only have one mouse button. I now have a Vaio R505G, which has three buttons... the middle is a mouse wheel. One mouse button is insufficient for me to conveniently use a desktop. I know a few Mac people who claim that it is easy to compensate for only having one, but I never have.
Most Linux software is developed and tested primarily on x86 hardware. This sucks, but that's the way it is. So, if you have a need for any particularly cutting edge tools, they'll often work best on an x86 laptop. Much more seriously for me, Matlab is not available for Linux on PowerPC cpus. (Unless that has changed recently.)
Anyway, the NVidia chipset is the killer. If Sony's customer support didn't suck so much ass, and if it didn't come with Windows, I'd recommend Sony R505Gs to everyone.
They cost a lot.
view the video clips from www.feedroom.com
I almost forgot to mention my views on ibook/powerbook.
Both the ibook and powerbook weigh about 5 lbs (4.3 lbs for 12.1" powerbook and 7 lbs for the 17.1"). They also offer very poor battery life, at about 3.5-4 hours run time. In addition to that, the ibook keyboard is very shallow and poor. That fails all 3 of my criteria: size/weight, battery life, keyboard.
Add the fact the ibook/powerbook are overpriced because Apple has a monopoly on its hardware and you've got a reason not to buy Apple.
In their defense, the PowerBook is a good desktop replacement, and probably my choice if I wanted a DVD-RW. It really does have a full feature set in a relatively slim case.
But the ibook is just cheap components that give you a slower laptop that is oversized for its capability, weighs far too much (5 lbs for their "lightweight" !??!?!), and has an equivalent battery life to a much fuller featured powerbook like the 15" (considering the ibook only has a 12.1"!!!). Only get an ibook if you're a fool, basically. You can get overall better hardware from the x86 camp for much less money if that's your reasoning for even considering that junk.
Consider this. What is your hourly rate? Ok multiply it times the number of hours you've spent trying to get around the "windows tax" well, congratulations, you've lost money in the long run. Now-a-days the major OEMs get keyed copies of Windows that only work on their brand. So really your only option would be to attempt to sell it as an unactivated copy for Dells only or whatever brand you bought. Why buy a non-major brand laptop that has questionable support under linux, when you can buy a major brand that can be very well supported by the community?
One other option, in the Dallas area there is a free computer magazine that you can find at most computer stores or book stores that features local computer store ads. I've seen many BTO laptops in there. You'd have an easier time convincing a smaller company to dump windows for a sale anyway.
Who would of thought that over half the people answering this question suggested iBooks or Powerbooks?
Think this would of happened 2 years ago?
Um, chill out, he was just suggesting a way to make sure things work. I didn't see anything about 'AND MAKE SURE YOU USE KNOPPIX BECAUSE it 0wnZ 411 07H3r d1s7r0s!'
Half right, half wrong...
Apple didn't invent it, they licensed it from George Gerpheide. Apple was the first to market a laptop with a touchpad.
If you want a source for this tidbit, click away.
"Slow down, Cowboy! It has been 3 years, 7 months and 26 days since you last successfully posted a comment."
I opted for a Dell first. Couldn't get it without paying the MS tax. Contacted Dell. Got a reply which basically said: 'Up yours!'
So I responded in kind and started looking elsewhere. In one of my favorite Dutch hardware stores I could buy an ASUS notebook without having to pay The Tax. Would save me 109 euro.
" It's called a power book.
Yao and mini-me use 'em, why can't you?"
Anytime I'm ready to take over the world I'll order one.
You make me sick!! I'm sick of this. Grow up???? FUCK YOU!! No, you need to realize there's a damn good reason why people are against Microsoft!! How does "whining" about Microsoft's monopoly, cheap tactics and shitty operating system make me less of a man! Fuck you. It's poeple like you who should be shot in the head with a rifle. It's poeple like us who "whine" about Microsoft who believe in quality computing and take a stand against the bullshit they put everyone through. I hope your PC gets hacked into and you lose important files you piece of shit.
> also, there is the issue of wireless. ultralights (correct me if i'm wrong) usually don't have a pc-card slot. and pc-card wi-fi cards are battery HOGS.
Two things. First, even a PDA has some sort of expansion card. If not a full PCMCIA, then at least a flash card slot that they make various hardware to fit. Any ultra portable will have PCMCIA, maybe the Apple ibook doesn't, but that's an Apple problem (airport, wtf!? just use a real pcmcia card that costs 1/2 as much).
Second WiFi is a power hog, not just WiFi cards. If you've got dual antennae embedded in a PowerBook screen it's going to take tons of power just like a single antenna in a PCMCIA wifi card. This is what Intel is trying to address in their Centrino blah blah, or so their marketing department claims.
So yeah, wireless eats power. But that's a problem when you're trying to make your laptop send 2.4ghz signals to an access point. Those waves of energy don't just make themselves!
Tuxtops
I don't understand this. First, you say that you want it to outperform an iBook - which is a pretty beefy little machine - and then you say that performance isn't an issue.
Honestly, Apple still makes the best laptops in the business, and they run linux just fine. (I've even heard of people hassling the apple store enough to get one shipped with no OS)
Do you really need reason for beer? Wingman Brewers
If you think about it, the modifier key (ctrl) to do a "right click" is right by the trackpad on any Powerbook. So it's really easy to work with as it's really just about as easy to use as a second "mouse button"... easier in some ways because you only have one large mouse button to press so you can't miss and get the wrong one.
When using an external keyboard it's more of a pain - but then you also usually have an external USB mouse with two buttons (which I do). I really don't find it annoying to switch between the two, and in fact more and more I find myself away from the dock and just using the computer wherever I am (since I have wireless almost every I sit around now).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
All this dweebs here is bitch about Microsoft and Windows. Get a life loosers.
Can't find someone who sells computers without Windows? - then open your own freaking company.
Gee - this isn't hard - run Darwin and X Windows software.
Sigs? We don't need no stinkin' sigs.
will happily sell you a Toshiba Libretto without windows on it, for $100 less than their published list price. They'll also put ISOs on the hard disk for you. I have an L1 I'm very happy with. Be warned, though, they are somewhat overpriced. They also sell other things small, light, and Japanese.
If you want to make a statement by spending an extra $500- $1000 just to not have Windows, fine. I suggest you can make a more effective statement by just getting the commodity laptop and giving the $500+ you save over an allegedy "Windows-free" machine to GNU, BSD, and/or EFF, depending upon the particular point you are trying to make.
If you truly want to avoid money going to MS, just get an iBook ( or Powerbook if you can swing it.) Those are great, sturdy, well-arranged machines. Actually, I'm not sure how sturdy the Powerbooks are but the iBooks are unbelievable and really are made for 12-year olds as far as being tossed in backpacks and so on.
It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw.
One of the best features of the iBook/Powerbook that no-one seems to have mentioned is how very useful instant-on is in these things. When you close them, they sleep right away... and when you open them, you can type almost before you have the screen up.
That might seem like a little thing but it turns out to be a HUGE benefit. You are concerned about battery life - if you have to wait 10-20 seconds for a laptop to wake up then you are less prone to close it. So having a laptop that wakes up right away means you can leave it shut when you don't need it! Not to mention the lack of annoyance at waiting for the laptop to be available all through the day.
The most advantageous environment I've found for this feature is any kind of class or conference. I just bring my laptop in, open it when I want to take a note, and shut it again until the speaker says something of interest. I don't have to bother people around me by leaving the screen glowing the whole time, and at the last conference I was at I was able to easily get a whole days use on a single charge (15" Powerbook).
From the specs, it sounds like your best fit really is a Powerbook. Don't let some of the oddities scare you away, then are negligible in the end compared to the build and feature quality you get with Apple laptops.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
yeah. grow up and just go buy a sun unix box. no, kidding, the parent is a stupid head and i'm telling.
Mwave has a nice range of notebooks and PCs available without the M$ tax. Their notebooks don't quite meet the lightweight spec you provided, but they are nice nonetheless.
I think lnx-bbc must have moved their website because the link is dead:( Anyone know the new website or if there is a new site?
The internet PC store Mwave has both Mwave and ECS brand notebook computers that are available without an OS. Prices aren't too bad either. The ECS models are a little unconventional, as they don't have internal batteries - they use only external batteries that must be purchased separately.
If you want a nice BSD-ish UN*X box, look at the low-end PowerBook.
Best Buy can have you arrested
I just purchased a laptop for my sister. It was a Mitac with a 1.7ghz celeron, 20gb hd, DVD-ROM (downgradable to CD) 4 USB ports, firewire, built in Ethernet, 56kmodem, and a whopping 15.1 viewable screen. It was a beauty to behold. Dealer cost on it was like 1170 without tax. That is obviously no OS. For grins I loaded Mandrake 9.0 on it (had to try). Detected everything without a hitch (except maybe the firewire. Nothing to test that with)
Call mike at Gigabyte, Jax, Fl. (904) 739-6668. He'll sell them to anyone tho you got tax if no reseller ID.
eg: http://www.angelcomputer.com/cgi-bin/index.pl?page =detail&id=62&country=cdn&pp=22&type=b us
No Operating System -85$ (cdn)
They also have the same option (-85$) for choosing Linux.
What we see depends on mainly what we look for. -- John Lubbock Now search for that bug slave!
If your not playing games, buying it used is a great idea. Linux, if you set it up right, runs great on older computers. The only thing you will need is a new battery. Batteries get old.
Around the corner where I live there's a shop that sells these. NO WINDOWS as standard, like good Dutch custom the OS is an OPTION in the pricelists! IEEE1394, USB2, PCMCIA etc. It IS a Dutch company but I bet they'll deliver the goods to you anywhere with FedEx. Worth a try IMO.
This is supposedly insightful?
What do you suggest that the person asking the question, and others in a similar situation, should do?
Buy a computer with Windows and just not use it?
Switch to Windows?
Get over what? That Microsoft has a monopoly? That Microsoft is making money off people who have no desire to use their products? Why should that be acceptable?
Get a Sharp C700, its tiny, runs Linux, and at least looks like a laptop.
My Lifebook S 6110 runs Slackware 8.1 perfectly (woohoo!). I had to edit several files to get X-Windows and the sound card working and haven't tried configuring the built-in 802.11 card yet. I'd still recommend this machine to anyone looking for a portable laptop running Linux.
The only thing that irritates me about Fujitsu though is that they don't even GIVE you the Windows install media when you BUY it - they stick a "rescue" partition on the hard drive that stops being recognized by their "disk rescue" software after you rewrite the partition table. I don't mind keeping a copy of Windows installed on a shrunken partition, but it really pisses me off to pay for something and then... not even get it.
A light, slender laptop that DOES run Windows!
It's even better than one that DOESN'T.
What about the Apple tax that come with Apple hardware?
It was said in another thread, but the difference is that you are buying a computer from a SOLE VENDER-- Apple. Apple is not forcing other companies to include Mac OS X when selling a non-Apple computer, unlike MIcrosoft.
Put another way-- if you buy a Civic from Honda, there is no special added cost for the tires that come with it. Those tires are part of what make a Honda a Honda.
BUT if Honda forced OTHER auto companies to make you pay for Honda tires on *all* THEIR cars (even if you wanted to put your own tires on it!), well, that would be unfair.
W
-------------------
This is my SIG. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
bb4win, which mimics the black box look and feel and is even compatible with the many existing black box styles.
While LiteStep (one of the oldest windows shells) mimics the NeXT OS/Window Manager and has thousands of themes (and it's even GPL).
If you use either of these or one of the many other shells (see Shell Extension City) along with WindowBlinds you won't even know you're using Windows (you can even make it look like KDE or OS X if you want).
The point of all this is to say you're not stuck with the Windows interface, the start button, the task bar, the clock, or that annoying grouping feature of the programs menu. And I think MS has even embraced this some-what with an actual entry for "custom user interface" in gpedit.msc (Win2k and XP pro only). ... So stop complaining about the Windows interface.
On the other hand if you were talking about the much complained about "fisher price" interface you can turn all that !@#$! off, albeit in no less then 4 different places (or crack open the regedit).
----------
"UNIX is very simple, it just needs a genius to understand its simplicity." -Dennis Ritchie
http://www.samsungelectronics.com/notebook/q10_ser ies/index.html
The m$ tax has already been paid...
This reminds me of one of my favorite compiler error messages:
Some other good ones:
Source: MacKido
You could still buy new and sell your OEM copy of windows. I don't know the legal status if it, but if you are not running it, and own a licence whay can you not sell it? I know that the newer win 2k/xp oem are stickers on the system.
I bought a new laptop recently over christmas break; and IBM thinkpad 600. It seems to run great; although I had to replace the battery in it initially (see prior slashdot issues on that). anyhow. The machine i have is a P2-300 MHZ machine. It can't even supply the dvd rom drive it has decently enoguh to decode them. However the machine does more then enough to run gnome2.2 on, and runs everything I need perfectly fine.br. Sure I won't have top of the line stuff. And i definately won't have IEEE 1394 support, but what linux box truely does? As for stuff like 802.11B. . buy a cheap card or ebay. works great. Philip
Perhaps that is worse. Not only does a company have a monopoly on software-they have it on hardware too. At least the PC is an open standard. Apple hardware is subject to Apple's whims. I'm not trying to put down Apple with this post-it's just that the person seems to want to avoid buying proipritary software, but has no problem buying propritary hardware, which I believe is even worse.
i worked for a company that bought a few from them. they were pretty happy. the price isn't that bad and customization is allowed. They build their own, so i don't think that you have to mickeysoft anything.
Here's a direct link.
Also, here is a very good user discussion forum concerning the P2000 laptop, which actually has a seperate forum for the linux users, so you can check up on what you can expect:
http://www.leog.net/fujp_forum/
On a sidenote, I can say that Fijutsu will *not* ship any laptop without the windows license. In fact, when you send in the system for repair and they need to replace the hard drive (which contains the repair image), you have to pay for a new license.
When you can have a little Sharp Zaurus C500 with Linux installed0 -review.htm l
http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/sharp-c70
Ceci n'est pas une Signature !
i have had an ibook for about a year, and i'm a very satisified customer, my next upgrade will certainly be an 12" powerbook. (I use linux on a monster-desktop)
what i haven't seen mentioned is that apple's education discounts are often pretty decent. my g.f. (who is a grad student) might "help" me get one, which where she is, is under $1700 with superdrive. when i spec out other portables with superdrive they usually seem to be currently ending up really close to that. plus i really like the hard metal case.....
whenever i think of getting a portable for linux i'm always bummed about the wierd buttons and scrollwheels and stuff that i know i'll never quite get working under linux.
heck, if i was going to get pc to run windows i'l still want one that was as simple, small, and cleanly designed as my ibook. the form-factor for me is something that i'm very comfortable with ergonomically.
...but for laptops without an OS try www.sager.com Sager laptops are top notch, cheap price, support linux (mostly) and can be bought without an OS (do the customize machine thing and you can choose it all.) Also, www.pctorque.com who is a sager supplier offers some torque's to Sager's for just as cheap in case Sager doesn't have directly what you're looking for.
Preinstalled with linux, subnotebook format...
It's just an idea...
While your analisys is verey thuro you forgot to mention 1 of the arguably most important fetures of apples. Style. You cary a wintell laptop you look like a geek, you cary a mac, well lets just say it can work somthing like a cute puppy. For some reson females like cute and macs are just about the only computers that qualify...
Don't save your orgasms for Heaven; Heaven knows we need them here.
The places that will sell you a computer without Windows charge the same or more. Might as well get the box with Windows and format the drive.
I agree, then again I hate linux. One of my choices os is freebsd.org
Sounds like you want on ene of the new 12" G4 laptops. Comes with *nix as standard. OK,
it _is_ expensive, but if it's want you really want then it's worth it. Also, don't forget that the
GHz rating for P4-M laptops is a load of crock. My
Compaq EVI N800v (1.7GHz P4-M) spends most of its time running at 1.1 GHz because it's running on batteries. Also, if battery life is really important, then you you'll find the Macs hard to beat.
return 0; }
So now this Knoppix Boot CD tells you where you can buy the computer you tested to see if the laptop is "linux certified"? I am sorry but this is just an add. After all its not that hard to find out if a computer is suppoted by a given OS. Not to mention the main problem the poster brought up was finding a laptop with out windows. Am I to assume then that some store will let you stick a cd into any laptop that has no OS to see if your OS of choice will work? I think not.
Why to I keep saying OS of choice? Simple this topic also applies to people who wish to run *BSD's too. Linux isn't the only game in town, nor is it the best team in town (in my eyes that is).
Insightful!? Bwaaaaahaaaahahahahaha sniff..sniff. :)
Do you think their software team works for free? Or are you just one of those "I just hate MS, just because, well, they're evil" types?
When you buy online, most companies such as Dell, IBM, Compaq, etc. will force you to buy some software package.
:)
If you, however, call them on the phone and talk to one of their sales reps, you can have the bundled software removed (including the OS).
I would recommend a Dell, or if you have the money for it, an IBM Thinkpad. I love my ThinkPad.
You just have to talk to a real person, which I understand is sometimes difficult for some computer literate people, but you have to work to get what you want in life.
Dont ask. Just do it. Thats what I do. And I leave it there.I am willing to bet more then salesguy will actually check it out once he realized there is no harm done. It is an interesting distro to play with.
- A non-apple notebook depreciates 1/(2^n) where n is the time in years you bought it.
- It is better to buy a really good quality one, as they are much better put together.
I develop on linux, but can't wean myself off editplus (although I like kate a lot). I have just bought a couple of toshiba 7200s for about $600. With the money I have saved, they now have 802.11,10/100, and 320MB, 40GB. Ultralight magnesium frame, made in japan quality, and still the biggest screen on an ultralight (13.3 XGA). Both dualboot 2000/7.3. One mainly 2000, one mainly 7.3, but redundancy is useful. And buying second hand means you are not paying anything to the he-who-cannot-be-named.Humorous signatures are over-rated.
I've never run a display at more than 1024x768. ... I get sort of lost and confused at anything higher than that.
Then you're a bit of a simpleton, aren't you? Resolution doesn't have to affect the size of icons or text. As you increase your resolution, set your icon and font scale to be larger. This is an OS/window manager setting, so it applies to all apps immediately. At the very least your eyes or aesthetic sense will thank you for smoother text, especially on the notebook LCD display (with precise dot pitch, unlike a CRT).
I just replaced a R505 with a 12" PowerBook. In every respect, the Apple is the superior machine:
The R505 series of Vaio feel very very cheap. The nice metal cover that had been on the older series Vaios has been replaced by a run-of-the-mill piece of plastic. After a year, the screen hinge barely works, and the power adapter socket will only make an adequate connection when I hold it just right.
On paper, the R505 is smaller, but it doesn't feel any smaller. The way the 12"PB is hinged makes it open in a very compact way - unlike the R505 which seems to need a great deal more room to fully open. On a train or plane, the 12" PB can be held on the tray table with the screen at a reasonable angle even with the seat reclined in front of you. No chance of doing this with the Vaio.
Finally, the PB12" is much much smaller when you consider its relative size with the DVD drive installed. On the Vaio, you need to plug the unit into its base to get the DVD drive - doubling the size and weight of the thing. With the Apple, it's just there, and just works.
You say you're fine with a PCMCIA 802.11 solution, but have you really used one of these for any length of time? The antenna portion of the card makes for an awkward fit - especially compared with the elegance of the Mac's built-in airport.
Don't get me started on OSX. You want to run Linux why? Honestly, with X11 installed within OSX, I'm finding it hard to find reasons to run Linux.
Is the only thing worth buying.
And till I have money for VAIO I picked up used Toshiba Portege 3480CT on ebay. It is a good piece of hardware with good linux support - currently running Gentoo.
ECS has recently started selling true notebooks (i.e. based around low powered CPU's and with an internal battery) outside of Taiwan. They have one model that look exactly like the Desknote models, but have an internal battery, PC Card slot, and higher resolution LCD displays. Other models are comparable featurewise to what other manufacturers offer, but come at a lower cost, and without Windows bundled.
According to Gateway's testomany in the MS court case : "Gateway also faulted another provision of the new licensing agreement, which requires PC makers to pay a Windows royalty on every PC shipped, even if it didn't include Windows. To top it off, to qualify for market development funds, PC makers have to put a Microsoft OS on every PC. As a result, trying to sell non-Windows PCs, or even PCs without software, is a financial loser for computer makers." http://news.com.com/2100-1001-868413.html
Do they not (still) sell a ThinkPad with Linux pre-installed? I think it has only been a small proportion of the range, but ask.
I like ThinkPads, I havn't seen another portable that closes itself into a box, my Dell and Acer before it both have screens that hover over the keys when closed, and netiehr keep out fluff nor seem rigidly supported.
If they rat you out to credit reporting agencies, contest.
Remember: possession is half of the law!
Get a PowerBook, you won't even need to install Linux of it once you try out Mac OS X!
Actually, he never says he wouldn't use Mac OS X.
Free Hans!
Unlike some months ago, linux now runs pretty well on those hw. there are a number of distros which ships their own ppc-based releases, most notably mandrake, suse, debian, gentoo. notwithstanding just a few months ago it would be very difficult to build a good and complete ppc-linux box yourself, there are now many good guides, most of which very easy step-by-step guides, which will let you get quickly and easily a well-working OS. Probably for it's vivacity and support debian's still the most fair choiche right now, but i'm curious to see what will mandrake do with its 9.1-ppc. For the moment, those are some really nice guides: http://mij.oltrelinux.com/ibook/ppc_linux.html http://people.debian.org/~branden/ibook.html http://www.cattlegrid.net/~christophe/titanium/ http://www.hispalinux.es/~data/ibook/
Asus S1 Series
Got everything you wanted, is thin & light and still got a 13,3" screen and you can purchase it without a OS. A internal WLAN nic is available,too.
Linux seems to work without (big) problems: Howto from Linux-on-laptops
Jan
You throw the monopoly moniker around far too freely like many of the slashdot ilk. A vertical monopoly where a product goes from conception to fruition under the aegis of a single company is entirely different from a horizontal monpoly where a single company owns all means for an industry to do business. Anyone ever saying a vertical monpoly is bad is being ridiculous and dense. Vertical monopolies can be avoided, if you don't buy from Apple you don't support their monopoly. If you don't buy from Sun you don't support their monopoly. However if you buy from HP you can't switch to Dell or Gateway to avoid Microsoft's monopoly. Microsoft's monopoly stangles the industry, Apple's only strangles their small fraction of the market.
Then you go and bring up proprietary hardware, I'd really like to know what the hell in a Mac you think is so proprietary. Every Mac since the iMac has had OpenFirmware which lets you boot any OS you want to on a Mac. Older Macs had a MacROM but those have been dropped since the iMac. What is left that is proprietary? Hmmm, Bluetooth? No. Firewire? Nope. USB? Hmm not quite. AGP? Again no. PCI? Sorry. SDRAM? Try again.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Give it up. Seriously. It's easy enough to build your own PC without paying MS tax, but it's harder to find prebuilt PCs without Windows preloaded, simply because there isn't much demand for them. For portables it becomes even harder because there is less demand for them to begin with. I am surprised you were even able to find any, so if you also start to be picky about the specs (lightweight, and especially long battery life), I think you are just making it into a mission impossible. At least it would be more of a hassle than getting a Windows refund, which has the additional benefit that it sends a signal to the people involved that people really _do_ want portables without Windows and _do_ think it's bad if they have to pay the MicroSoft tax anyway. So, my suggestion is just to buy the hardware that suits you best, and make as much fuss as is necessary to get your Windows refund.
I am not opposed to bundling (neither hardware with software, nor apps with OSen), but it should always be an option, like, it should be clearly indicated that the system with OS X (where X means any) costs Y extra compared to a clean system. Since reality is not like that, I think we should voice out to change it. It's not anly about the knowledgable (spalling?) having to pay for something they don't want, it also about educating the laymen, making them realize that MS software is just another option, and not the only choice they have.
---
"I think that the anti-Microsoft sentiment is simply due to their having been
so successful selling a lot of crap." -Woz
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
he's right on and the drivel that is the grand parent is just wrong.
Our department is happily buying Fujitsu Siemens laptops WITHOUT any OS! They also ship a Suse demo disk! There's a range to choose from, though you might find that for gaming, you'll pay too much. Good luck!
Er... am I missing something here, or is this post completely off-topic? I thought the main point was about NOT paying for Windows.
Sigged!
Apple software tax notwithstanding, if/when you come to resell, the iBook will have retained FAR more of it's original selling price than virtually ANY x86 notebook.
That was classic intercourse!
This is one thing that really stands out. I buy a lot of hybrid CD's, mostly learning games for my daughter's Mac. Unfortunately, since the stores don't have MacOS-only software, it doesn't get conted as a sale for MacOS systems. They see no reason to accomodate Apple owners.
If the consumer wants Linux, there's no reason why Microsoft (or the hardware manufactures) should register this as a Windows sale. Doing so will only aggravate the situation in the long term, as it skews perceptions.
Yeah, really strange they wouldn't allow me to boot all the PCs in the store from that ripper-infected floppy.
Sigged!
Ok, so the Red Hat installer couldn't find those things but what about you? Did you try anything like loading drivers manually? looking at the output of lspci? googling for answers? Hell, did you even try other distros? I've heard that Knoppix has very good hardware detection, although maybe even the U3 is too weird/new. The distro's installation procedure is not the end of setting up a Linux machine, it's just the start!
Got one of these last week through work - my first impression was OMG!! but it's now running good - 1024x768@24bit - with full access to everything on the docking station, including the firewire/scsi/ide/wtf?? CD-R/DVD drive.
:o)), and has everything you want. I read somethere that it is the european version of the R505 ?
r aphics.htm
It's light (without the docking station
I (eventually) settled on redhat 8.0. You have to boot off the first CD, then do a network (http/ftp/nfs) install due to the firewire CD drive..
You'll then want to get the 2.4.20 kernel, and apply the ACPI patch from http://acpi.sourceforge.net/
You'll also need the updated i830 driver from intel at http://support.intel.com/support/graphics/linux/g
A pretty good wireless howto can be found at http://www.cowplop.com/writing/pcg-srx77/.
Anyhow, a week on, it's really shaping up. I'm refining a HOWTO which I'll post and get linked from http://www.linux-on-laptops.com/sony.html real soon. If anyone's wanting to get one of these up and running ASAP, contact me via my website (link above) and I'll email you the howto as it stands.
$ strings FTP.EXE | grep Copyright
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California.
I've had my 12" PB since friday, and I'm so glad I did it. It's my first mac. I like solaris and linux, but don't feel comfortable running linux as my primary workstation. The mac gives me as much unix as I want, and I can still run mainstream apps. But the real clincher is the attention to detail that apple pays - it's hard to quantify, but there is a polish and finesse to the mac and to macos x that is quite unlike anything I've found in the PC world.
Seeing as you can't spell, why should we believe that you can reason?
Eh?
That was classic intercourse!
I have another suggestion:
Get very cheap one like $700 HP ZE4209 from Staples or Dell. Delete Windows XP.
Donate $150 to EFF. Use tax exempt.
This is much more than HP paid to Microsoft!
And you get a cheap brand name notebook too!
Kubus
Apple tried to make their hardware an open standard back in '97, remember? It nearly put them out of business.
--
est modus in rebus
"I'm looking for PC notebook computers that outperform the iBook" ...
"Performance isn't a major concern"
Make your mind up!
The windows tax you talked about. well, as the tax is not only on the os but also on application front such as office(more so). microsoft maintains mainly its monoply through windows(i doubt if windows earns much using home editions of os, but mainly from enterpize eds) but uses its application programs to make more money (both though licences and upgrades). so by just buying a laptop with windows, i don't think you are paying much to the vole. just make sure that you are not paying for other ms software such as office/works etc and then throw away the os and install whatever you want. do check with vendor that all the h/w is linux compatible. good luck
I'd suggest a refurbished Dell from Dell Financial Services. These are machines that were used by businesses as part of a lease program and were returned. Most still have warranties. More importantly, no OS and no OS tax. Check it out.
Speak truth to power.
I did not realise that Apple brought this terrible thing to the world! :-) I used to use a good old PowerBook 140 and it had a track ball which was far easier to use than any stupid track pad. Currently I have an iBook 500 and I cannot understand why laptop makers continue to use these silly pads or, even worse, these point things in the middle of the keyboard.
Or at least this one: Mebius PC-SX1-H1.
When I considered purchase of a laptop, this offering from Sharp caught my eye immediately. It's light (3.2lbs), long battery life(5 hr), powered by a Transmeta Crusoe processor, with an excellent screen, and the specification looks perfect for Linux installation. I live in Taiwan and all the laptops I could find didn't seem Liunx-friendly except possibly this one. However, the agency didn't approve of my request to avoid the Microsoft tax, and I couldn't do anything with it because no one sold a laptop without Windows preloaded here.
I thought I made a good deal until finding that my rtl8139 network card didn't work under Linux. It is because Sharp uses ACPI to configure peripheral devices, and no matter how I tried, I could not get it work. The purchase turns out to be a BIG disppointment for me.
So did any one have experience in dealing with ACPI-based laptops, or should we who wants to run Linux exclusively stay away from them?
(PS: I have also tried FreeBSD and knoppix, but both failed, too)
'coz;
Alison
"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." - Albert Einstein
Sounds like a Transmeta device would be right on target. You can then avoid both windows and intel.
http://www.antelopetech.com
http://www.transmeta.com
uniwill (www.uniwill.com) is now making barebones "whitebox" laptops for resellers. I think these will be great for the industry, and for Linux users in particular.
Ask your local dealer if any of their distributors offer them.
If not, send me an e-mail at:
laptop@newmillenniumcomputing.com
http://www.newmillenniumcomputing.com
I just got the notice from my distributor, so haven't put any together, yet. No info on durability or performance, either.
Their hardware is an open standard *NOW*. You can buy off-the-shelf parts from multiple vendors and assemble a system capable of running MacOS unmodified. The only catch is that the MacOS license explicitly forbids running of MacOS on non-Apple-supplied hardware. That's not a closed standard, it's saying "If you want this OS, you have to buy our hardware". As Apple is not a monopoly, I really couldn't care less. If Apple were to do something I *really* didn't like, I'd have somewhere else to go with a minimum of hassle.
Furthermore (IANAL), that license claus isn't really enforcable on an individual, provided you weren't using the same license on multiple systems. Basically the only thing it does is prevent manufacturers from selling hardware with MacOS installed; an individual could move an existing license off their iMac and on to some high-end PowerPC system.
Toshiba SETUP ('BIOS' configuration) software tools. dunno if they take care of all the parms of the very last models. since 1999 I had 2 Toshiba Portégé laptops (the last one is a 3480CT). theyre are robust but I'm not very happy, esp. with the last one: * an asterisk for each touch punched when you type your BIOS password (not very secure, one can read on the number of asterisk to know the number of characters, you cannot fake the earer counting the punches by typing on dead keys) * the screen doesn't open up completely (it can be useful) * crappy 'micro joystick' mouse (imprecise, erratic moves), w only 2 buttons * crappy screwing (most screws fall appart), probably due to the assembling made in Europe * the integrated sound port is near the USB port, it is unusable when this last one is used (electronic noise) * the Ethernet port is not integrated (you have to carry the big thingie containing the extensions ports) and the Linux driver cannot warm reset it (note: there is an internal port for an external screen! and no place for Eth :-( )
* bad PCMCIA placement (your hang weights on the netcard connector)
and so on...
moreover they are overpriced, and the parts are pricey
example: the power supply cable to the laptop is proprietary (specific connector on the PC side) was cut by simple an normal usage (I fold it in order to put the laptop in a case) and the catalog price is 120 euros (1 euro is approx 1 US buck) here (France)!
about the size of a video cassete, color 640x480 screen, 3hour batt that can be upgraded to about 6 with a heavy duty batt.. P75 chip that can be clocked to 166 with some wire and a bit of soldering ;) (Ive only plucked up the balls to goto 100(toasty))... erm 800meg hd, 16meg as standard mem.. will run most distros fine.. and it will more than likely fit in one of your coat pockets..
ebay for em.. theres also the 110CT which is a 266mmx I think, with a bigger lcd.. but its bigger than the 50CT.
moo
They can also operate as a mouse button. Tap. Tap and drag, etc. Another Apple first
This, to my mind, is the absolute worst feature about them. I hate this. Reason: I'm typing away, and want to move the mouse. So I go and move my thumbs to the pad to move the pointer. Result: I've just clicked somewhere I don't want to click. If I'm lucky, I can back out of what I just unintentionally clicked on and didn't close something.
Any input device where you have to be very, very careful to touch it gingerly so as not to accidentally give input you didn't mean to give is a poorly designed input device, in my opinion.
-Rob
If you want to live on the cheap, you'd be better of as a vegan or a lactovegetarian, especially if you go the DIY-route with soy beans and chick peas. "Fake" dairy products are expensive as hell but if you're eating that, what are you doing with veganism? It's still less expensive than meat, at least where I live.
My mom occasionally gets that stuff so she can cook traditional food so I've tried it, but I often don't buy it for myself since it's so expensive.
Their website is here. Only catch is I don't think their laptops do firewire.
I run Debian on an iBook.... I did the "takeover" installation, that is, Debian is all I have in the iBook. Linux runs very fast on an iBook.... and, the internal USB connected modem has a driver which may be had from Conexant or from the Apple Darwin site under "third party drivers".... which has drivers for all the possible modem types. Really, the iBook is the best machine I have ever owned..... very tough. I recently requested that IBM sell me a Think Pad without Windows.... They refused, the hypocrites who spout their "linux friendly" crap out of the side of their corporate piggy snouts.. It seems that Micro$nout has them by their porcine balls via "unwritten threats"......
Uncheck the 'clicking' checkbox and/or the 'dragging' one.
Job done! That was easy, eh?
Alison
"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." - Albert Einstein
Kind of ironic that you're not permitted to 'test' the machine you're about to fork out several thousand dollars for.
When I was last searching for a laptop I encountered this brick-wall mentality, consequently I ended up telling them "Oh, in that case, no sale, goodbye" ( Commissions obviously doesn't exist in sales any more ).
I failed to do that once, and regretted it. It was 1993 or some such, and I was trying to get a monitor for my Amiga 1200. Being a cheapsakte and wanting to save money, I figurd I'd get a standard massmarket SVGA monitor instead of paying more for a Commodore monitor, since I thought that ought to work. I go to CompUSA to ask what they have there. I ask the guy if I could bring my computer in and try it out. Ha. No go. He had a nice, friendly excuse about how he'd love to help me out, but it was Sunday morning and it was going to get real busy in there before long.... (Meanwhile, it's real quiet in there and several sales people are just standing around.)
Sucker, stupid-ass me goes and buys a monitor anyway from a place that has just demonstrated as clearly as can be deomnstrated that they are customer-hostile.. And, no, it doesn't work. I did return it, and got a check for the refund a month later. (That also irritated me; I was a grad student, and a couple hundred dollars of cash flow was significant at the time.) (I don't remember if there was a "restocking" fee.) I kicked myself from buying from such a customer-hostile place, and eschewed all CompUSA's for some 7 or 8 years thereafter. (Nowadays, I do go into them, but don't buy anything there I wouldn't also just buy mail order from another mass-market place. I've moved a few times, it's no longer the same store, and the small places I trusted (including that Amiga shop) have all gone out of business.)
For the Amiga, I ended up buying a more expensive commodore monitor from the same shop where I bought the computer in the first place-- you know, a small friendly shop where I knew the people. I should have just done that in the first place, but the siren song of lower prices for bulk hardware is hard to ignore.
-Rob
angelcomputers.com offers several offerings of small computers under 2 kg with no os, or redhat
Fujitsu P-2110 - 860 Mhz Crusoe Processor - 256 Megs ram - 20 Gig disk - 8 meg Rage Mobility Chip - 2 USB - 1 Firewire - 1 PCMCIA Type 2/3 port - Removable DVD/CD-RW drive - built in 802.11b I've succesfully installed and used for months and months Slackware 7.1 and 80. I have read the forums and found that several people there use Debian and Gentoo. This laptop is about 11 inches wide and 7 inches deep and about one inch high. It's about 2-3 lbs without the burner in it. Wicked laptop!
Why don't you but the PC you want and take out (1) screw (pun intended) and sell the OEM license with that screw for the approximate cost of the license. You (technically) haven't given any money to MS then (the person you sell the license too will have). Just a thought. I haven't read the EULA lately for OEM but you used to be able to do this?
I'm looking for something myself as well.
ASUS sells laptops with a discount if you do not want M$ installed.
But I do feel attracted to those nice powerbooks.....
And whatever everybody says:
_yes_ it is worth to install linux on a powerbook. Because I develop linux, _not_ OS-X.
No matter how nice it is, I do not use a PC to get things done, I make it able to get things done.
Honda doesn't put Honda-brand tires on their Civic line of vehicles.
You might want to check for yourself.
http://www.aslab.com/
ASL Linux is great. I have a Monarch laptop. It is a ~3.5 lbs with a nice XGA 13 inch screen. Detachable base for CD/battery/floppy adds another 3 lbs. Mine is pretty old, but I asume the new ones are pretty nice. Good service, only install Windows if you pay extra. They set up partitions however you want, even networking. My laptop has 1 pc card slot, I use it for wireless at home.
I have bought a few other orders from these guyst (desktop systems). They will gladly dual boot your system and configure to your needs. They have been around for a while as well. I think I bought my first desktop from them four years back.
Ed
www.novatech.co.uk do laptops, with windows as an optional extra
Yeah, like illegaly leveraging its monopoly and some how miraculeosly getting just and slap in the wrist.
Those MS lawyers are brilliant.
Add to that consumer apathy (brilliantly displayed in this thread) and you have sure recipe for success.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
...made by ECS in Taiwan. The concept is that they put half desktop components (CPU, RAM), half notebook components (HD, Optical drive) in a portable form factor. It's basically a portable desktop, not a use-on-the-road laptop. The battery does come extra...the price is a bit high on that link though. I'm pretty sure you can find it cheaper in other sites...try newegg
The Fujitsu Siemens Lifebook P is your ticket to ride. Small, laden with extra hardware (wlan f. example) and linux runs smooth. A friend of mine has debian woody up and running and even watches movies with it (cinema display too!!!) :-)
It has a transmeta and runs 16 hrs. (!!) in real life with the powerakku stuck in (which is better for typing too).
You'll have to swallow your pride and purchase an oem winxp license with it's hdd though.
But you can join the refund community and kick some ass too.
There's a solid Fujitsu Siemens Lifebook P fan community on the net and a subtacial amount of linux users among them. Have them tell you the best config and the newest model.
And prepare to shed somehting like 2 grand for the extras (akkucells) and the best darn notebook on the planet.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Maybe it is because Apple actually does innovate, and doesn't put other companies out of business in the process of doing so.
There are many reasons for not wanting to pay the M$ tax. Mine is that I do not want to do business with a convicted monopolilst who still appears to believe that bankrupting their business partners is an ethical way to do business.
Since I believe that M$ is ethically and morally bankrupt, I choose to not support them in any way. It has nothing to do with whether a commercial operating system is pre-installed on a laptop or not.
I hope this clarifies the issue for you.
www.penguincomputing.com
Need I say more?
I seem to remember Dell making press releases about shipping systems with Linux, but their store page is currently down with technical difficulties so I can't take a look. I'll consider the fact that their "Technical Difficulty Encountered" page says how they use Genuine Microsoft (R) Windows (tm) to be a bad sign.
The iBook is not such a bad idea. The price difference between Apple and Wintel is not really that big in that segment of the market. They have all those connections you want and decent battery life, and they run Linux pretty nicely.
If you want long battery life, don't even bother with PCs unless you want to carry around ten pounds of stuff. A Mac is the only option.
Hi,
... - laptop manufacturer, and only Dell was willing to sell me one without a payment for the OS.
...
:)
...
:)
...
:?
:))
...
:)
:P
I live in Belgium, Europe - and I tried calling every - Toshiba, Sony, Compaq, Dell, Mac, Acer, Siemens,
Typically - the salesperson or manager would go like "your computer will not work without Win XP" or something like that ; I confronted them that I would never be using the installed XP OS and so on, and every time when I stated that I wanted to run Linux on it, or eventually - that I already had a legal copy of Win 2000 that was just fine for me to install - they would switch me to another operator higher in the "chain of command"
There - I learnt that because of OEMs with MS, they were not allowed to sell a laptop without an MS license, unless the quantity would be > 1000 pieces.
So - I figured that Dell would be the nicest of them, considering their ads state they uncercut competition
I kept calling there, and after four times hearing the same song that my computer is useless without Windows OS (go figure), I got connected to this person who was willing to send and sell me a laptop without OS - meaning I got a +/- 150$ discount on the machine.
So - I called back all the other companies - being a pain in the ass that I normally am in such situations - and tell them about Dell doing this favour for me. While before, they were stating to me that absolutely "NO" company whatsoever would be giving me a discount -some companies ( Toshiba, Compaq) stated that there were plans for doing so within six months, and talks were ongoing, since apparently I was not the only one to call in with questions like this
One fun detail though : when I received my shipment with my shiny Inspiron 8200 - Win XP was installed, and !!! the official DELL CD with the OS backup thing to reinstall, was included as well, meaning I got an official copy so to speak.
All the same - on my invoice - there was clearly a mention of the fact that I got a 150$ discount for not wanting the OS installed on it
So - apparently, from what I heard from the salesperson when I contacted him again on the matter of the included CD - they are obliged at Dell to send the laptop with the Windows installed, because that is their check to see if all the hardware is performing right
And it probably would have costed them more even in manhours to remove it again, once installed.
It is strange though - that they were still sending the CD along
My recommendation - bug every company as much as you can to sell you one without OS. Then - if they don't want to - tell them that they leave you no other choice than buying with the competition (be sure to mention the model you wanted to buy from them - I used to think I heard the salesperson's hair getting up from shrinking profits
If nothing works- go to Dell.com - tell them explicitly you don't want an OS installed, and try several times until you get a person who is willing to help you
BTW - I did this not so long ago for a company as well, and they got a discount too, for not installing the OS ; this one was blank however, no Win installed, and no CD's either ; there was a DOS disk included though - which also struck me as weird, but hey - another 150$ discount made it a good day
Good luck
Knowledge first. Social contact later.
Don't be so rude if you can read properly, idiot. The guy said:
"Currently I'm looking at an iBook; however, they're a bit larger and heavier than I'd like."
so he is use the iBook as a benchmark and hasn't found anything better yet. Where the fuck do you get that idea that he has ruled out the iBook?
System Preferences->Mouse->Trackpad
Uncheck the 'clicking' checkbox and/or the 'dragging' one.
Job done! That was easy, eh?
If it were my laptop, sure. But I don't like touchpads anyway, and so wouldn't buy a laptop that's got one. When I'm borrowing somebody else's (or otherwise using somebody else's, e.g. to show a third party how to download his OpenOffice.org presentation and show it), it would be highly impolite to go in and play with system settings.
-Rob
I know I'm a little late to the party, but I purchased a laptop from Netlux a year and a half ago and in their configuration section chose "No OS." and that's exactly what I got.
I had to confirm this on a phone call with a rep a day or so later because I'm pretty sure they had to reformat the OS, but since they just build them there, they could hold onto the CD and the license and use it on another machine.
Long story short, I didn't pay for a copy of windows that I was just going to pirate anyway (linux free? only if your time is worth nothing) and ended up with a solid machine upon which I'm writing this post via 802.11b connection. The only thing it doesn't have is firewire, and I'll bet even that's available if you're willing to pay for technology that still hasn't gone mainstream and probably never will.
http://emperorlinux.com
You can either buy one of there pre-configured laptops with linux (no you don't have to pay for the windows license, unless you want to dual boot with windows) or you can buy a laptop and they will install linux for you. I've never purchased anything from them, but I've considered it (decided to buy off of e-bay and install bsd myself), but the e-mails I sent to them with questions about their products were promptly replied to, and with good, tech-info rich answers, not some sales weasle-ease.
On top of all this, it just feels right. The design is clean with a keyboard that is comfortable to use and a mouse pad that doesn't suck (any more than any other laptop mouse). The speakers sound good, the screen is great, and the battery life kicks ass (4 hours, easy).
Currently I'm sticking with OS X 10.2 - it runs Perl and Python just fine and that's what I spend most of my work life doing. At some point I'll probably get frustrated with a proprietary system and put Gentoo on the thing.
Anyway - good luck on your purchasing decision. Don't discount the iBook too quickly, it's a solidly built work-horse, and it's sexy. :)
That's fine, you can always steal it. We won't tell anything ;)
http://www.powernotebooks.com/
No hassles, no Windows unless you want it and they are a pleasure to deal with.
I have heard a lot of great things about Apple here. I have an iBook and love it. My problem is - with all of this new attention how long do you think it is going to be before MS kills off Office for Mac (essentially killing Apple)?
...And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me." - Martin Niemoeller (1892-1984)
Grab a Linux Journal or some other Linux mag. They usually have ads for this type of thing.
796F75617265616E65726400
Now what if they insured you that you also were not getting six months free AOL dial-up access, and instead of not getting XP Pro you they assured you that they were leaving out Win2000 Enterprise Edition and Office Professional Developers Edition ... I think for an extra $500 I could probably hook that up.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
You don't seem to have very special requirements so why are you tripping on speed? So what's wrong with a G3, 800MHz iBook? Stop making such a fucking big deal out of your petty little laptop purchase and go get an iBook and shut the fuck up.
Check out PCTorque.com or Powernotebooks (as has already been mentioned). I got my Sager at PCTorque, and couldn't be happier with the service and the product. The laptop I got was a beast, but came with all the latest and greatest (including your firewire, et. al., and 802.11b). And it runs linux like a dream, with practically everything supported and loaded from the get-go (Mandrake, of course). The only problem I can see is the weight -- http://pctorque.com/comparenotebooks.html has a page listing some dimensions, and so forth, and the lightest 'book from Sager is 7lbs. However, that page also says that 802.11b isn't available on that model, and it IS.
The forums on these sites have specific linux posts (and posting areas FOR linux posts, which is nice).
You CAN choose to have Windows shipped with the thing, in various incarnations, but the default is NO os.
They're a good, good place to do business with.
I can think of 3 off the top of my head
In a similar direction to buying an iBook/Powerbook from Apple, there is another non-x86 option, Buying a UltraSPARC (sun) based laptop from Tadpole Computers that runs Solaris. In my search for a laptop earlier this year, I did eventually give up and pay the M$tax. I do run windows on it, (just not the version it came with), and Linux, and BeOS, and hopefully soon Solaris x86 too. It seems that OSless x86 laptops don't really exist anymore, but you do have two other options. (Although both are a bit pricey).
Actually no, the official name for said protocol is IEEE 1394. Apple uses the brand name Firewire and Sony uses the brand name I-Link.
Galium Arsenide is the material of the future, and always will be.
If you go to www.dfsdirectsales.com -- not the Dell outlet site, but the Dell Financial Services direct sales site -- you'll find systems that Dell leased out, and has since taken back. Because Windows was "licensed" to the original user and cannot be transferred, these systems are all sold without operating systems! (The Microsoft tax has already been paid; you don't have to pay it again.)
I don't think you're to beat a 12 inch iBook or Powerbook for small and light, though, and if "[p]erformance isn't a major concern," why are you worried about it enough to rule out a Mac?
Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
You're complaining about the ~$50 "tax" for Windows? Hardly seems worth worrying about in the context of a machine worth >= $2000.
:)
I'd rather buy from a well-respected laptop manufacturer which offers me good support, a good warranty, and good components even if it means that I have to pay the $50 or so "tax" for Windows. (You'll also get your first legal copy of Windows.
I never understood how anybody liked EITHER of them (the eraser or the touchpad). I always prefered the mini-trackball. I had an NEC laptop in 1997 that had a trackball on the front and still wish I had a pointing device like that on a laptop. It was the only device that I felt I had any degree of precision with.
Alternatively the Alienware Area 51m has gotten very high marks in performance tests (well beyond comperably priced desktops of both the PC and Mac varieties). It's price is comperable to a Powerbook.
On a completely different subject, I'm supprised you are so against paying the Microsoft tax but are perfectly happy to pay the Apple Tax. While Apple does not have a monopoly, it's business practices have been much more anticompetative. The main results of this are the lack of software titles for Mac OS's, the lack of Mac OS's for non-Apple hardware, and the lack of non-Apple hardware for Mac OS's. I can remember a brief period when Motorola (and some others) manufactured computers running the Mac OS's. Apple revoked the licences for this quickly, supposedly because they wanted to retain control over the whole product, but it was also clear that the Motorola hardware was much better than the Apple hardware.
Galium Arsenide is the material of the future, and always will be.
About 6 months ago I was looking for the perfect laptop: I wanted a Unixy OS, but I also wanted all of the features of the hardware to work (sleep, sound, modem, wireless, etc.). After much pondering and digging, I got an iBook. OSX Just Works(tm) with the hardware (as you would expect), is a lot of fun to use, and can run all of my X apps, console apps, and most anything else I need without much effort. But the big thing I really liked is that all of the hardware worked without spending a month grabbing kernel patches, fighting with modules, and trying giving up on various bits. Also, the iBook is nice and small (smaller than any of my friends and collegues laptops), has a good enough screen resolution, and is fairly powerful for laptop needs.
Of course, you can also wipe it off and put Linux on it. But, as a testament to OSX, let me say that not a single piece of hardware I own is running anything from Micros~1 - most everything is running Linux (or PalmOS, etc.) - and the iBook is the only one of the machines (beyond the ones that can't handle it) that havn't been overwritten with Linux.
So, in the end I recommend the iBook you mentioned at the beginning.
Posted from the wireless couch.
There are a few problems with Sager. 1.Those things are expensive compared to the big retailers. 2. M$ noticed the no OS option, and it sadly, is gone, it happened while I was shopping for a notebook, and they had a "according to the new Microsoft volume licensing we are no longer able to offer Systems without Microsoft Windows" sort of message up for a few days. 3. He said small, Sager doesn't make small laptops (smallest is a 14.1"@about 7lbs)
I actually have two iBooks, one running pure OS X and one running Yellowdog. Let me tell you, Yellowdog on an iBook is a sweet thing. When it comes down to it, you want a full-featured laptop that's easy on the wallet. That R505 vaio is cute, but the screen's tiny and it uses an external CD drive. On top of that, regardless of what the specs say its battery life is only about 3-3.5 hours. The iBooks I have get an average of 4 hours per full charge (I get damned close to five if I'm careful, sometimes).
On top of that, the apple hardware is, as many other slashdotters have mentioned, pretty high quality. I bought my first iBook because a friend of mine accidentally shoved his out of a second story window. The battery shot out, but he put it back in and, aside from a few scratches on the case, it worked fine. Plus, you can find a dual-usb with firewire ibook for under a thou these days, with a CDRW if you're lucky. The emperorlinux guys are selling machines for twice that without a removable media drive.
Also, the thing about Mac Linux being closer to the hardware is true. Unlike installing Redhat on my PC, I didn't have to screw around with source tarballs to get my hardware to work. Just a thought if you like things to be easy.
- Cloud
You can buy off-the-shelf parts from multiple vendors and assemble a system capable of running MacOS unmodified.
Really? I was under the impression that Macs used an apple designed memory controller, which was required by the OS. Perhaps you could point me in the direction of a supplier of DIY apple kit, prefereably one based in the UK.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Qli sells new laptops with Linux preinstalled. Their prices range from one thousand to over two, for a fully loaded machine. They don't sell any that are tiny, like the Vaio, but there are other companies that do sell refurbished laptops and small form factor laptops with no Windows tax. I chose Qli because I was looking for a particular feature set, and because one of their installation options is Gentoo, which is my current favorite distribution.
I got an 1800MHz, 512MB (2GB max), 15.1" LCD, 20Gb, DVD/CDRW laptop for a shade over $1800. It has onboard ethernet, three USB (one of which is USB 2.0), onboard firewire, and a single CardBus slot. It was, practically, the perfect configuration I was looking for; the price was reasonable, and (as I said) they offered Gentoo as an install option.
My experience with Qli has been good. I agreed that they would install Gentoo 1.4, which is technically still beta, and this was Qli's first 1.4 laptop, so I had to do some work after the machine arrived to get it fully configured. I would expect that if you chose Gentoo 1.2, Mandrake, or Redhat, it would arrive fully configured. Qli provides a large number of installation options, and money you pay for the distribution of your choice (which varies) goes to the distribution.
The best thing about Qli, IME, was the customer service. The staff are extremely knowledgable and helpful, and are good about responding to support requests. They have a good understanding of kernel configurations, from which kernel modules are required to support which features to various configuration options.
I'm also very happy with the hardware. Although it isn't yet supported by Linux, I was pleasantly surprised that the laptop came with an unadvertised MMC/SD slot.
There are a couple of hangups with my particular hardware, but none of it is Qli's fault. The laptop is entirely ACPI, and ACPI support in Linux is immature. Consequently, I can't suspend the laptop (!) -- yet. OpenGL is proved to be a bear to get working, but this is due to my choice of distributions; apparently, Redhat on this laptop has full accellerated GL support out of the box. There is an onboard WinModem, but we know about those.
In summary, I can recommend Qli. You need to evaluate your own requirements, and then send them an email before you buy. They'll give you status reports on various configurations and recommend a system for you.
[Disclaimer] I do not work for Qli, and I don't receive any compensation for recommending them. My only relationship with Qli is that I've recently purchased a laptop from them.
no useful text -- please ignore this this is only to avoid the lameness filter because i guess this is really pretty lame i wish the lameness filter was never added to slashdot it makes people do this lame crap when posting something lame and it doesn't prevent people from posting lame crap anyway so why have it at all
Vobis (www.vobis.de) sells blank machines. They come with "PC DOS 2000" preinstalled which is just a lame excuse for not violating the MS gag agreement. The XP preinstalled models are 100.- more expensive.
Dell doesn't claim they do, but for corporate customers they do sell some of their machines without preinstalled OS, and they are cheaper than the regular ones. At least I found this out when I phoned Dell Germany some months ago... they actually transferred me to somebody who claimed he'd be able to sell me a laptop without pre-installed software.
Perhaps that helps. Otherwise, buy a Powerbook. ;)
Home Page
Guy must be a web designer.
I cannot get my web designer wife to see the logic against 800x600. "The _modal_ number of people still use 800x600; therefore, I _must_ think in 800x600. She can't see that the curve is skewed. There are plenty of persons using resolutions (way) above 1024x768 and almost nobody still flaying themselves at 640x480. So designing for 800x600 means the pages will be suboptimal for way _more_ people than they are pleasing if they would just design for 1024x768.
Web designers of the world: Throw off your chains of 800x600 opression and breath in the liberation of the free and open spaces of 1024x768!
You could look at apples notebooks. OSx is Unix, can run X11, can run linux apps. The hardware is sweet, the sleep / instant on works perfectly.
I would suggest that you want an X series IBM thinkpad, these can be purchased with Linux pre-installed on them and have all of the expansion that you require built in.
Novatech, our local PC outlet, will sell you a laptop (or any PC for that matter) with no OS on it.
Now wash your hands.
I purchased two laptops from QLI mid and end of last year, their EM3000 and former Emperor 2. The quality of the laptop construction in excellent and they perform very well for numeric computation, CAD, and a few games. I too have found their support to be second to none, this is most likely because they are a small company. If you have any questions give them a call and they will be happy to help.
The oem may provide means of backup, on another partition, or write to a bunch of floppies or CD etc, but these wind up as corrupted versions of windows that are tailored to the specific machine, without the full install capibilities etc.
McFly777
- - -
"What do people mean when they say the computer went down on them?" -Marilyn Pittman
www.scronline.com
unforunately, most of mine aren't very small. They aren't exactly heavy, but they aren't small. I only have 1 with a 12.1 display. Regardless, I'd be more than happy to sell any of my notebooks loaded with linux or whatever else you want if it will support the notebook. I'll also preload our desktops with linux. I'm an MS OEM, but to me, custom built system means you get it the way you want it as long as the hardware you choose supports it.
If you don't want to pay the windows tax (Or the HP/Dell/etc. markup). Go to a source that is closer to the manufatcurer. For example, Compal is one of the larger actual laptop manufacturers - they supply HP, and toshiba, among others. If you want their hardware, find a smaller VAR for their Compal. E.g. Sceptre, Chembook, etc. All the majors do is just change the looks slightly and bundle the hardware with software and support.
The smaller the VAR, the smaler the markup (generally). You can configure the machine as you like, and you can buy them without an OS.
That being said, my most recent laptop purchase was from www.discountlaptops.com - and I didn't pay the windows tax. There are many of places you can find *just* the hardware - you just have to look.
I'd look at the 15" PowerBooks instead...
http://www.amazinglaptops.com/specials.html
The 2794 is $1194 with 1.6 GHz P4, 256MB, 40GB HDD, 64MB Shared AGP video, 14.1" 1024x768, DVD, 4 USB, 1 IEEE 1394, Modem, ethernet. No OS Standard, optional Windows XP ($75). May be too heavy at 6.5 pounds.
There are other places that sell these, so might find a better deal if you look around. I've seen these rebranded and sold in local computer shops (with XP on them standard, but could get no OS for less $$).
Here is your solution:
http://www.thinkpad.com
They're solid.. innovative.. light.. Linux-friendly and the support is GREAT. I wont consider anything else.
-- NeTMoNGeR
buy a MAC Powerbook
Great idea if they let you :) Also keep in mind the machine may work with Linux but not with the Knoppix boot CD, so don't give up if that doesn't help. Over the weekend I used Knoppix in two machines that I know to be Linux-compatible, yet each machine had problems (one wouldn't even boot Knoppix).
-- Fratz, human
Ahem.
Do you really think you can make a statement like that and get away with it? Why don't you list the ways that the Apple GUI is far superior to Windows instead of TROLLING like that?
Yeah, I like having all of my menus at the top of the screen all of the time. OSX Rocks. Drag the CDRom to the trashcan to eject? That's a great one.
Get a grip on yourself, Steve Jobs won't be your friend just because you really, really want to suck his dick.
I work for Gateway - it's no problem building a notebook or desktop with Linux, but there are two catches. 1) It can only be Red Hat (that's all our team supports) and 2) It'll cost you an extra $175 per box. CIS (Custom Integrated Services) Orders are generally more expensive. Usually we don't it unless a small business wants to run *nix and not Windows.
No M$-tax.
There is a swedish webshop where you can configure your own laptop (almost like with dell) and you can phurcase it without any os at all.
www.datorbutiken.com
I'm currently having to fight Dell for the last $50 CAN of my $150 rebate.
You don't really believe that, do you?
Blar.
I *am* a web designer, in fact... but I never run my browser fullscreen. I prefer around 640 pixels wide, to get a nice, readable 10-12 words per line. Good designers don't design for specific browser window sizes.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
Get an IBM ThinkPad X24 or X30.
There's quite a buzz about the inexpensive Sony 505 clone called the Sotec 3120x. Avaiable at major office supply discounters for around $800. Comes with WinXP but can boot Linux. Google it and you will find many comments. Rumor has it that an update in the Spring will include built in 802.11b and USB 2.
i've been researching this for quite some time. i too prefer the libretto w/ a sony in a close 2nd place. dynamism.com has some great listings. however, none of these listings are available w/o the m$ tax. therefore i will be going with the 12" ibook and will be running mdk 9.1 on it. my brother has this ibook and claims it to be a little thick for him but none-the-less an excellent do all solution. he prefers os X because he's new to the computing sceen.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I have a prostar laptop. I bought it with Windows. I have a second disk that I've installed Mandrake Linux (8.0, 8.1, 9.0).
In looking for a replacement I called prostar and they said they would sell me a machine without an OS and give me a discount of $70.
The machine I have is pretty heavy, but they do have some lighter models.
They're quite a bit cheaper than Dell, HP, etc..
http://www.pro-star.com/
Apple's retain value like a BMW
Now, tell me is this statement stemming from the fact that the hardware and software, are just so reliable that you rarely need to update, or the fact that a new Apple isn't more than few megahertz faster so why update?
If you hijacked the truck hauling the windows laptop, would you still be paying for windows?
Would MS still be paid for windows on the stolen boxen?
If so, what does that mean?
That is a tricky case, and in all honesty I'm not sure how people set up keyboard maps to deal with that. It's been a while since I used XTerm under OSX.
In practical use though, that issue really doesn't arise much... Terminal.app is really pretty good, and for me is a usable replacemnet for XTerms that doesn't make me miss XTerms too much... other X11 apps can be run using either Apple's X11 solution or the original, and generally don't seem to have that level of menu changing.
I think possible one would end up mapping either the "FN" key to be CTRL, or else just make CTRL really work as CTRL (in X11) and make the FN key the modifier that makes the mouse button act as the second button.
Don't even ask me how paste works (both buttons), it's been a while since I've used an X11 app since I got Emacs compiling under OS X.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
even better,
my system has a setting that says
"ignore trackpad while typing"
works great!
So you don't want a laptop with Windows? Fine. Buy a laptop case and put all the stuff you want in it. Harder, but there's nothing preventing you from doing it.
It requres that you pay an MS tax, because it is very small, debian installs without any problems, the screen runs in an excellent resolution, and it is an amazing deal.
d se riesbean.do?series=P2
http://webshop.fujitsupc.com/fpc/Ecommerce/buil
(they have many others, that just happens to be the one that I purchased, and love)
-= Henry
You are telling the market, "either I like Windows, or, I like the hardware and care about hardware more than software."
...computers without Windows is too small/unprofitable...
...a commodity and in the long...
You are telling the market, "either I like Windows," or, "I like the hardware and care about hardware more than software."
The difference between my statement and your statment is the reason that Microsoft spends so much to insure 100% OEM compliance.
The difference between my statement and your statement is the reason that Microsoft spends so much to ensure 100% OEM compliance.
You seem to say that Microsoft ensures compliance because of the difference between two statements, and not because of the statements' contents.
...computers without Windows will be too small/unprofitable...
There's a obviously...
There's obviously...
a commodity and, in the long...
The others are left for the original author to contemplate.
But unless the seller knows WHY you're not buying, your stand is pointless.
Would explaining it in an essay on your web site and sending a copy to the boycotted company's sales department work?
Will I retire or break 10K?
Game colsoles are a better comparison.
No one disputes that Microsoft has every right to include their own software bundled with the XBox.
What you do with it after the fact is your own business.
Where in fuck's name did you get that machine for $500? I've been looking at them, can't find them that cheap... what the hell...
The way I get around this for notebooks running Linux is to buy used - seems the used and surplus places I've seen don't sell an OS with the laptop. All the better to put Linux on it and more often then not you don't need the latest laptop (or want the latest if there are new devices and chipsets that may not be supported)
If you like the VAIO (i hate them, but that's your business) then bite the bullet and format the hdd right out of the box. You will not find a good laptop like you want one without windows. Sorry, but it's just the way things are.
I have a Sony R505 and I must say it's really, really nice. However, it's not built for Linux. The docking station uses a firewire connection to the CDROM, with some tweaks to the bios, so it will boot from a CDROM but not install. I NFS-insatlled RH 8.0 but it won't boot, somethings wrong with the lo interface, and it hanges. I read that Debian is good for the 505 but I've never used it. I haven't messed with it much since. There are times I do regret not purchasing an ibook.
I didn't see any replies mentioning Qli. I've been looking at the posts for a while but I still might have missed it. Does anyone have a review of these?
website here:
http://www.qlilinuxpc.com/
Someone stole my old sig.
First you talk about how "in Slashdot-land, there are no girlfriends."
;).
Then you mention one of your "heated solitaire session[s]."
I think you might want to preview your entire post before submitting in the future
My legal education, in nifty podcast format
If there is political motivation behind the purchase of computer hardware (and any such political motivation should be duly complicated by the fact almost all PC hardware is manufactured in Asain sweatshops), then Dell is probably the *last* company you want to buy from: Michael Dell, Pres. and CEO of Dell Computers, Inc., was one of GWChimp's biggest campaign contributors (if not *the* single biggest). Now is *that* where you want your money going?
2c. from Just an...
Anonymous Coward
Of course you are correct. You are paying more. And any one who has one of our
systems will happily tell you you are getting _lots_ more. If you want all the
challenges and headaches of getting a current-run laptop running Linux _well_,
then by all means, please go get one and hack on! Our customers are people who
have other jobs to do, who need a Linux notebook that _just_works_, so they can
get their jobs done.
They are being paid to write database code, crunch meteorological data,
simulate the birth of the universe.
=> They don't have the _time_ to mess with setting up the OS.
Keeping your core programmers, research physicists, and tenured astronomy Profs
"on-task" is worth quite a bit to the people who pay them.
Lincoln D. Durey, Ph.D.
Electrical Engineer
EmperorLinux
Think of dolphin-safe tuna. If you really want to be a purist on this issue, stop worrying about the can of tuna you buy at the store if you don't also worry about the tuna salad sandwich you're about to eat.
Whatever you do, don't buy used. If you do, you're almost guaranteed to buy a system that was once purchased with Windows installed. Think of it as "Microsoft contamination."
A suggestion for Slashdotters: even if you're not in the market for a notebook, call around your local computer shops, and ask them if they sell laptops with Linux installed. If they do, see if you'd still be charged the MS tax, ask questions, keep them talking a while.
A meatspace version of slashdotting, and perhaps when the managers look at the meatspace version of their referrer logs, some will start selling Linux on laptops.
Fuck it
These guys are linux-aware and will pre-install linux, or sell you a PC with no OS installed.
s .cfm?su perkitcatID=4&catID=13&show=y
They sell a handful of laptops - this one looks cool:
http://www.pcsforeveryone.com/listcomputer
I'm not affiliated with them - just an occasional customer.
Cheers.
Depends on your needs.
I have an 800x600 screen on my laptop (IBM 385XD, used, about $300, pretty darn GNU/Linux compatible, but about 3.5-4kg), and stretch it to 1024x768 virtual at 16-bit colour with XFree86. It works well for my needs, which are just very light wordprocessing and web surfing. If I want a 1280x1024, I'll go home and use my desktop.
Seriously, you might check a used laptop seller. The one I visited was willing to unload (perhaps never reload after a wipe?) Windows on some models for a discount.
It's just like a fascist dictatorship, without the punctual rail service!
OS X != Free Software
Paying the tax to Microsoft to have a computer is a duty.
http://www.dell.com/us/en/esg/topics/linux_000_pro ducts.htm
Linux solutions on DellTM OptiPlexTM desktops and LatitudeTM notebooks may be ordered via Dell's Custom Factory Install service at
http://www.dell.com/us/en/esg/services/service_cfi ClientCFIServices.htm
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
You should check out http://www.discountlaptops.com , no O/S installed! Not endorsing them, just giving a good example here.
I've got a friend who just did just this, the support for the hardware is excellent. To na-sayers who will complain about Apple's proprietary hardware, it's actually an advantage here; without all sorts of wacky configurations to choose from, everything on the iBook is supported from network/sound/trackpad/function key maps/sleep/power savers/etc. Add to that the benh kernel and you'll really be moving. Think about all the kern modules that are not needed and thus not loaded via that specialized kernel built just for that hardware configuration, talk about a clean implementation.
This way your running on less power hungry hardware, and running an OS that's much less power hungry to boot, and a kernel that only does what it needs for that top. You avoid the MS tax, you can get a 700Mhz for 999$, you get built in wifi (airport card an add 79$), you get the best battery life, plus Debian/GNU Linux which supports the hardware beautifully. Any na-sayers about Linux fonts need to run Gnome2.2 and then get back to me. Don't like Gnome? Install it for the fonts, and then run Fluxbox or Openbox. If you give it a try I doubt you'll be disappointed.
CB
free ipod and free gmail!
If you've got the time and nerve to install Gentoo Linux on your iBook, you'll be rewarded with a nice, fast and slim system, that IMHO runs much smoother than OS X. Plus you'll get the most recent versions of your favourite apps...
"I was just going to ask if anybody had tried to put Linux on one of these things."
Try this:
Linux on Sony U3
I cannot understand why laptop makers continue to use these silly pads
Heh, a better question is why apple mice still have but one button. Are you ready for that leap? Can you coordinate two fingers, possibly simultaneously? You might be ready for linux if you can click them at the same time for some 3-button emulation.
Here's another vote for the Fujitsu P-2000 series. I had similar requirements and ended up with this device. The clincher for me was the battery life - put a couple of high capacity batteries in this puppy and you can go all day on a charge (10+ hours in my experience). Its also fairly cheap, really small, and quite linux compatible (everything but the winmodem). RH8 installs directly from the built in CD in 30 minutes with no hassles.
BTW - if you want to discourage hardware vendors from hitting you with the windows tax; one strategy is to go through the motions of getting the refund. Get a headset and park on their 800 line until you work through their whole service department. Maybe you'll get the refund, maybe you won't. The vendor won't hang up on you because the EULA clearly entitles you to return the product for refund. If they do kick you off just call back and start over with anothe operator. Don't mention the first call. Do it while web surfing some weekday. Sure it takes some time, but its entertaining and it makes the statement that you want sent. Its not as fun as picketing, but its more effective because it costs them money to deal with you - especially if you get escalated to a service center manager. If everyone who wanted the refund did this then vendors would pretty quickly put the machinery in place to enable refunds because it would be cheaper for them than the alternative of spending service center personnel resources.
Read the EULA before you try this so you know what you are talking about. I xerox it and highlight the parts I want to quote back to them. And don't give up easily - they'll try to get you off the phone. Remember the point of the exercise is to make it expensive and painful to the most senior people that you can get on the line. Be calm and reasonable and relentless. And have fun!
this is not a sig
will customize it, a bit.
don't know about form factor.
they built 'the ultimate linux pc' a year or so ago. Your choice of distro. good stuff.
also: qli.
Keep your packets off my GNU/Girlfriend!
I must take offense sir! You obviously have not read our site, nor do you know anything about
our company. If you'd take a moment to actually research your subject before commenting...
You'd find that we are fully focused on providing the Linux OS on portable systems for individuals and companies that require full hardware support out of the box. We are very well respected by the research Universities and government research labs that buy our systems.
Our customers are a very satisfied bunch (judging by the fact that they always come back for more) because we truly deliver what we advertise.
Furthermore, we are _not_ a Linux reseller, but a producer of fully tested, supported, and ready to go portable Linux system solutions. Real Linux experts take the orders on the phone, and can discuss with you at length the pros and cons of partitioning choices, filesystem choices, which distro is best for you, and which machine will have the functionality under Linux to do what your job requires. Real Linux experts sit down in front of each completed custom install and ensure that all hardware in the system works in Linux. If you need advice on Linux apps for a certain function, We've got talented people to help you.
We supply a machine specific manual with each system that explains the use and configuration of all the hardware in your system. When you place a tech support call you will always be _directly_connected_ to a real Linux expert, perhaps even the company president (he's in the support queue too)
Additionally, _all_ our employees run Linux, even the admin. assistants. We do our financials in GnuCash, all our Ad art is done using the Gimp, (even though that is a headache for certain magazines, we insist.) We use LaTeX for all quotes, invoices, faxes, bills, shipping labels. All our web-hosting and e-mail is on Linux. We have _no_ proprietary OSes or software anywhere in this organization, and never have had.
I think by "schlocky" you would mean some fly-by night outfit from NYC that charges 20% below list because they aren't a licensed reseller, and the product is opened and a restock or worse, and if you want to send it back, they charge you a 20% restock fee. And they wont have any warranty support, b/c its "gray market" goods. _NONE_ of that applies to MY company.
So, we are certainly not "schlocky". We are very well respected in the Linux community, and well connected to several of the core kernel team. We go to every Linux World Expo, and have been in the Linux Journal for 3.5 years, as well as SysAdmin, and Open, when they were still around.
care to duel?
Lincoln D. Durey, Ph.D.
Electrical Engineer
EmperorLinux
OK, first off, Apple's hardware today tends to be standard, with a special, Apple, twist. Examples: 1. ADC-Apple took DVI and made it propritary 2. CD-ROM Drives-Yes, regular IDE drives will work in a Mac, but many are not bootable. My PC's will boot off every CDROM drive I've thrown at them 3. OpenFirmware-Yes, it's OpenFirmware, but doesn't it have propritary extensions for bootstrapping the OS? I can't install OS X on like an IBM PowerPC Machine. The Mac is NOT totally open-if it was I could do this. 4. 802.11b-Apple took a Standard (PCMCIA) and changed the connector a little so a standard PCMCIA card would not work in it. The Airport card is just a apple-branded Lucent Orinocco, but apple "customized" it so you had to pay extra for the apple-branded card. Yes, apple used to be FAR more proipritary than they are. However, I don't think that apple is trying to be a better company by becomming less propritary. Rather, I think it is pure economics-using PC parts is cheaper than building your own. Apple has learned that they can have an even bigger profit margin by using standard parts.
If you know someone who is building their own computer from components and are looking for a Windows licence for it, you can offer to sell/give your Windows licence to them.
300Mhz PII, 128MB RAM, 2lbs, very, very small, 800x600 - USB, PCMCIA, IF.port + expansion device that has VGA, Printer, Serial, Ethernet, +1 USB, headphone, microphone.
I got mine off Ebay for about $250. That was about 2 years ago. I've been using it ever since. The battery that comes with it doesn't really last that long, but you can get a new one.
And it runs Linux great, no problems what-so-ever, and there are software and built-in kernel support for Toshiba laptops.
You forgot the most important reason of all....
They're thin.
120 character sigs suck. Make it 250.
Yes, Apple's notebooks have improved drastically over the past year or so, but are you really getting that great of deal? What most people don't seem to remember is that the G3/G4's are solidly outperformed by P3/P4/Athlon's. While it is true that (in some tasks) the PowerPC chips can provide more performance per clock speed, this lead is 20% at the most. And in some cases, such as the incredibly weak FPU of the G3, performance is MUCH worse per clock speed than with competing x86 chips. A P3-800 will outperform a G3-800 in almost every task. A P3-1Ghz. will about match a G4-800, each with its areas of slight advantage. An Athlon 2Ghz. will fully outperform any G4 chip on the market. They may not be as elegant, but the reality is that x86 chips still have a large performance AND price advantage.
OK, so what about battery life? Apple folks claim to run 4-5 hours on a full charge, while (most) PC laptops tend to hover in the 2-3 hour range. BUT, the PC laptops are running at higher clock speeds that give them greater performance. I propose this challenge: Take a well-designed PC laptop that gets 3 hours battery life with an Athlon or P4 running in the 1.8-2.2Ghz. range. Now, clock that system down to the range in which it matches the performance of a G4 in one of Apple's notebooks. I'd almost guarantee you can get the same, if not better, battery life than the Apple product.
What about quality of construction / features? Apple hardware is very well built and nicely feature-rich. It is unfortunate that some PC laptop manufacturers/OEM's have given PC laptops such a bad name in this area. But, here's the trick: don't buy from the "big name" PC laptop vendors. These companies have tended to produce increasingly shoddy / cut-rate laptop products. The plastic is cheap, the movable parts are flimsy, and the custom engineering involves a lot of cut corners to shave costs. You wouldn't in your right mind actually buy a desktop machine from these guys, right?.. so why a laptop? Look for a well built OEM unbranded PC laptop and then find a vendor that sells it the cheapest. As a side note, one thing I specifically dislike about Apple's laptops is the lower resolution LCD's they use. 1024x768 is still the norm in the 14-15" Powerbook line, while many PC laptops now offer 1400x1050.
This is just my experience and YMMV. I'm not in any way saying that Apple hardware is bad. But in my opinion, it is still overpriced for what you get. Unless you actually want/need MacOSX, get a quality PC and run Linux/FreeBSD. Sure, you can run a lot of your favorite Open Source software in MacOSX, but it's more hastle to get it working than using Linux distros' package managers or BSD ports.
My Palm was only about $130. Yes, that means 160x160 grey. If it dies, I'm only $130 from a replacement. My screen broke, and it was only $60 to replace it.
Palm isn't Linux. But, it is a lightweight OS, and full backups of an 8 MB Palm neither take a long time, nor consume much backup media.
Unfortunately, I haven't had much luck with used laptops. Their life is short, and buying a used one robs you of some of that life.
Sharp has a Linux PDA, and IBM has released a reference platform for a PPC based PDA - for Linux. If you can't get what you want now, you should be able to get it soon.
My next recommendation is to go with a PDA with standard batteries. My Handspring uses 2 AAA batteries. I get 4 rechargables from Miejer's for $11, and a great charger for $26. If I want more spares, their cheap. The new chargers allow me to charge and forget - putting them at my convenience. If my Palm dies, I get to reuse the batteries.
-- Stephen.
Even I must say that this topic is BOOOORRRRRIIIIINNNNNGGGGGG
I always preferred to think of it as a nipple, and I found it to be MUCH easier to use than those damn trackpads. I had to get a cheap hp laptop with a trackpad for economic reasons, but I really miss that thinkpad nipple. Or real nipples. I miss those too. Dammit.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
A good place to look is the IBM store on Ebay. They sell overstocks, refurbs, or whatever with a full factory warranty and everything. Most of the models are a year or two old, but the latest ones turn up there too. The discount is substantial -- not much more than what you'd pay for a private party sale on a used machine. Of course, you don't need the Windows software that comes with the machine, but with the great discount you're getting it doesn't matter. You might even be able to sell it.
I'm not sure exactly how IBM's warranties are attatched to the hardware and software -- whether not using the supplied software affects the hardware warranty. Frankly, I just choose to live dangerously, and I don't care. The cheaper machine is enough for me.
Perhaps the best reason to buy a Thinkpad is that they're so well regarded they're practically a cult machine, almost to the degree of Apple products. So there are plenty of websites devoted to installing Linux on Thinkpads. There's Thinkpad specific software so all the little buttons work, etc. It's well-trodden territory. But the hot tip is to buy a T, A, or X Series, and not an R. The R uses some cheaper hardware for things like the modem, and AFAIK, drivers aren't available yet.
A few counterpoints...
1. ADC-Apple took DVI and made it propritary
The ADC bundles DVI, USB and power into a single connection to avoid a tangle of wires. It's part of the simplified aesthetic that makes Apple hardware so elegant. I can still connect my VGA monitor to my brand new dual 1.4 GHZ PowerMac no problem. And I could connect a cinema display to any DVI port with an adaptor.
2. CD-ROM Drives-Yes, regular IDE drives will work in a Mac, but many are not bootable. My PC's will boot off every CDROM drive I've thrown at them
I can't remember how long it's been since I couldn't buy a Mac with a CD-Rom drive. Do you really need to boot off of that extra drive you added?
3. OpenFirmware-Yes, it's OpenFirmware, but doesn't it have propritary extensions for bootstrapping the OS? I can't install OS X on like an IBM PowerPC Machine. The Mac is NOT totally open-if it was I could do this.
Dammit, I can't install Windows on an IBM PowerPC Machine, either. And I can't install Mac OS 9 on my Playstation.
Apple builds their software and hardware to integrate and be as open as possible. It's an easier to use machine because it doesn't try to be everything to every platform. It works really, really well on the supported platform. Don't like it? Perhaps you'd rather spend time configuring software drivers and managing DLL's.
4. 802.11b-Apple took a Standard (PCMCIA) and changed the connector a little so a standard PCMCIA card would not work in it. The Airport card is just a apple-branded Lucent Orinocco, but apple "customized" it so you had to pay extra for the apple-branded card.
Well, that's certainly one possibility. Of course, I can use an Orinoco, Belkin or any other 802.11b PCMCIA in my powerbook and it works just fine. In fact, my Lombard Powerbook has an Orinoco card in the PCMCIA slot and it connects to my Airport base station just fine.
Perhaps Apple didn't "customize" the Orinoco card to gouge their customers, rather they wanted to allow their customers to still have access to their PCMCIA slot while using a WiFi connection via their Airport card.
However, I don't think that apple is trying to be a better company by becomming less propritary. Rather, I think it is pure economics-using PC parts is cheaper than building your own.
Certainly, the economics argument holds water. But how does that account for the standards that Apple has invented, like WiFi and Firewire? They certainly could have made them proprietary. Would you mind explaining how the contributions made to KHTML and Zeroconf (via WebCore and Rendezvous, respectively) fit into Apple's evil, proprietary, Bond-villain scheme?
My other computer is your Windows box
and it will run on ibooks just fine.
Well, I doubt you'll find anything without Windows other than the 12" Powerbook, but if you can find the Sony SRX99 used, it meets your other requirements. It uses a whopping 40 Watt-hour battery, which is quite large for a laptop with a P3/850 with a 10.4" XGA screen (lasts 4+ hours in real-world use). Has 802.11b, ethernet, firewire, and weighs 2.7 pounds. Note that the CDRW/DVD is external, but it's bus-powered so no external AC adapter is required. I got a new spare battery on Ebay for $139. I upgraded to a 40 GB 5400 RPM IBM Travelstar hdd with 8 MB cache for $138 (is quieter, much faster, and doesn't hurt battery life noticeably).
The downsides: It maxes at 384MB RAM. And it's a Sony (some complain their service sucks).
However, it's a hell of a lot faster than my wife's Fujitsu P-2040, which has a Crusoe CPU. As much as I want to like Transmeta, their current CPUs perform horribly... their next generation sounds promising.
My iBook does nto support using the trackpad as a mouse-button.
I hate the IBM nipple with a passion. It's like trying to mouse around with a teeny-tiny one-finger joystick... actually, it's not "like" that, it is that.
I thought the old mini-trackballs were okay, but you gotta clean them even more often than regular non-optical mice.
Whenever possible, I prefer to plug a mouse into my notebook, because no mobile solution is quite as good. However, when I'm on a plane or at a tiny coffee-shop table or something, the trackpad is far and away the best mouse replacement, once you get used to it.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Uses desktop processor and RAM in a laptop .
.
.
.
form factor, you can build ur own even
My friend bought one, popped in 512meg
of RAM, a high speed laptop 40 gig drive,
and 2.53ghz desktop processor , and a
DVD/CD-rw drive
It comes standard with USB 2.0 and Firewire
Only draw back, external battery pack
http://www.desknote.net/
Suprisingly, you can get it without M$ preload.
Good luck !!
Ex-MislTech
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
buy a used machine from ebay. thats what i did, twice.
As you increase your resolution, set your icon and font scale to be larger. This is an OS/window manager setting, so it applies to all apps immediately.
Unless you must use a proprietary but mission-critical app that's coded poorly with hard-coded pixel offsets so as not to respond correctly to changes in the system resolution.
Will I retire or break 10K?
The Apple 12" PowerBook outperforms the iBook and is a little smaller. It meets your requirements and it outperforms the iBook. The only downside is heat and cost. The iBook is a G3 processor and the PowerBook 12" is a G4 processor. The G3 is slower but better on heat and power usage. The new Aluminum 12" PowerBook is more sturdy than the iBooks.
O bjects/etc.
I've run Linux since it was truly useable i.e. 0.99.x kernel. I still run several Linux boxes along with some Sun hardware. I used to spend a whole lot of time getting Linux to run on laptops.
Then I bought a 15" Powerbook. Best damn laptop I have ever used or owned. It works very very well, it's rugged and everything just works as it should. The paint can flake and I put a ding in the lid when I dropped something on it. The new Aluminum shell on the new line is an improvement. I run OSX on it. I didn' t bother running Linux on it even though I could. Once I became accustomed to OSX I now use OSX as my only workstation software. I run OSX on the laptop and I bought a PowerMac desktop as my main workstation.
Linux on the desktop doesn't cut it. I was using Linux successfully as an end user system. I ran all the Window Managers and both KDE and Gnome. I've tweaked and fiddled constantly. I've run Vim and Emacs to see both sides of the fence.
I am not a GNU nut. I believe in buying some software if it does what I want. I don't really care if Apple has some closed source. I don't care if I have to pay for it. As long as they don't rape me as bad as Microsoft. I bought Office X because I have no choice but to read and process MS Documents and I don't like to risk compatibility.
The Apple hardware is high quality stuff. Processor speeds could be much better but to tell the truth, it really doesn't matter as much as many claim. The Mhz/Ghz myth is really just a myth. New Apple hardware is fast enough, in my opinion. Sure the laptop is slower than the PowerMac desktop but the desktop is dual processor and has a faster hard disk and video card.
Yeah, it's expensive but I was so impressed with the quality and power Apple offers; that it was a no brainer to drop the money on the desktop even 3 months after having just finished paying for the PowerBook!
Even considering the purchase of an iMac 17" for the family to use. Getting tired of fixing that Sony Vaio running XP. Oh God, I'm running XP! Oh dear oh my! Can't run those games without XP! Linux would never fly for the family members. The iMac will most likely fit the bill as Civ III is out and my brothers addicted to it. Sure they don't have all the games but they have enough. Most of the family simply uses email and the web.
Honestly, I have not found a single Open Source package that I could not get to work on the Mac's. Apple makes the best laptops on the market bar none. Worth every damn penny. I love the developer tools and the full command line abilities. I love the new X11 from Apple, it's full Aqua and OpenGL support works flawlessly and allows it to run faster than just pure Xfree86 (it really is XFree86 with a few Apple tweaks).
I don't advocate replacing Linux/FreeBSD/OpenBSD/Solaris servers with Apple XServes. I don't believe they are nearly as flexible nor as scalable (yet). But if you have a small office and you are pro-Apple, you should definitely check them out.
Any serious Unix developer should take a long hard look at the Apple hardware to consider it as a Unix laptop. C/C++/Obj-C/Perl/Python/PHP/Java/Tomcat/JBOSS/Web
Dynamism.com
Sharp Moeibus M1.
*gurgle*
--- "Just because you can....aw shit do it."
Just went through this. Get an IBM T30 2366M3U (to be configured model) for $1200. 2Ghz, 1400x1050 14in display. Titainium shell. Here is the IBM link: http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/P roductDisplay?productId=8559837&storeId=1&langId=- 1&catalogId=-840
Buy the memory, hd, CDRW/DVD seperately. I bought 512mb ram from Crucial for $150 (free 2nd day shipping). I am using my old laptop harddrive, but I would recommend a Travelstar 5400 rpm model. I also bought the CD/RW/DVD (new) off of ebay for $149. Plain CDRW's can be had for about $100 or less on ebay.
Total cost: 1200 + 149 + 150 = $1499
You don't get the built in Wireless networking, consider a linux supported pcmcia card for this purpose, It'll be cheaper.
Join the linux-thinkpad email list. Lots of support availible, both from users and IBM insiders.
I plan on running a lightweight optimized distro, Yoper or Gentoo.
The guy already stated in the article that he's not sure that he will buy an iBook. It's a little heavier than he'd like it to be. So, all the Apple trolls can sit down and be quiet. He already knows the merits of OS X (or at least that's the feeling I get from his post), as well as it's pitfalls.
What he wants is Linux. Not Windows, and not OS X. I mean, for crying out loud... Stop saying "dude you want an Apple," when you don't know what the hell he wants. If you're happy with your PPC machine, that's all fine and dandy. If you're happy with your PC machine, that's fine too. Hell, I own an IBM T21 with Slackware on it. Had it for 2 years now (job paid the M$ tax for me). Nothing special.
In short: Stop fueling the flame wars and give this guy some advise he can use.
[RnK]Tessai
For better or worse, it's your life or your purse...
I'm sure Apple has carefully prepared usage studies to prove you wrong.
you may not use the SOFTWARE.
How can Microsoft enforce this? Is it even a binding contract? In a binding contract, both sides have to give something up. What rights does Microsoft give the user that the user doesn't already have by federal statute (17 USC 117)?
Will I retire or break 10K?
Hmm.. I'm gonna venture a guess here. If I compare the parent poster's writing style to yours, I think it should be fairly obvious why he got helped and you didn't.
Getting effective technical support requires some attention on the user's part. Calling up and bitching about how it doesn't work (which is what I suspect you did) and calling up and asking where to find the appropriate settings (which I suspect the parent poster did) are two very different things.
Besides, I've never had any trouble connecting to the wireless networks. An unencrypted internet-only wireless network handing out addresses via DHCP worked immediately. The name of the network scolled across the menubar as I went within range. Another network which was encrypted (WEP) was a bit trickier as I had to figure out which key to type in, but it still only took a minute or two.
The settings are right there, and are quite straightforward. If you simply didn't know they were there, then Apple tech support is great. If you call to bitch about how they suck because it worked just fine on your Linux and Windows systems then they probably don't give a fuck about you.
By the way, whatever happened? Was it actually a hardware problem? Did you eventually get the settings straight and you now just use this story as good FUD? Or are you really clueless and just trolling?
I can't remember how long it's been since I couldn't buy a Mac with a CD-Rom drive.
You miss the point. Grandparent was complaining about how hard it is to get Mac OS to boot from some hard drives.
Do you really need to boot off of that extra drive you added?
Yes. What if the factory drives break? I have had TWO hard drives break (run 30 minutes and then die) in a Macintosh Performa 6230CD machine: one factory and the other the warranty replacement.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I have a Fujitsu P-2110, purchased new directly from Fujitsu 6 months ago, and actually it does have a Firewire port. The tech specs for the newer model, the P-2120, confirm this.
My wife and I are very happy with our P, the lightness combined with the Wi-fi add so much freedom to our computing, and it's got an amazing LCD, a great optical drive. Our model isn't especially fast, but the P-2120 is supposedly quite a bit faster, with a higher clock speed Crusoe and a Radeon versus our Rage video chipset.
If you do want to look into the P series, there is a linux forum at leog.net that should be helpful. They also have a for sale forum where you might be able to find a P-2120 cheap. I've also seen them on Ebay.
However, I do think that if you buy a used Windows system, you're still paying the "Windows Tax", albeit a bit further removed. Honestly, I think if you buy a Mac you're also paying a "software tax", but at least it's not to Microsoft.
I asked Microtel back in November if they would be selling Linux laptops. Here was the response I got...
> hi ryan,
>
> we are about ready to offer linux notebooks.
>
> thanks,
I still don't see any Linux laptops on their website though.
Uh..do you have a history of eating paintchips or have some sort of clinical problem preventing you from making logical conclusions?
1. ADC is DVI with USB and power pins added. The AGP pinout spec has power pins facilitated, Apple's just the first motherboard manufacturer to make any use of this. ADC is fully compatible with DVI, it is just more convenient because it reduces wire clutter behind your computer.
2. Apple didn't specifically disable particular CD-ROMs from booting, It is the CD-ROM manufacturer screwing with the drives ATAPI firmware that prevents some drives from working.
3. There's no proprietary extensions for booting MacOS don't posit assumptions as facts. It has Forth modules that make booting pre-X versions of MacOS possible. There were just shortcuts that launched the OS8/9 bootloader. The OF command you're thinking of is mac-boot. Considering you can do what you will with OF modules you can make a linux-boot module if you so choose.
4. That is just absurd, the AirPort card is INTERNAL. Few if any PCMCIA card are designed to fit into an internal slot. The only thing Apple did to the Orinoco was to remove the built-in antenna to be able to hoot the card up to the system's antenna. How this is somehow evil and a sabotaging of the PCMCIA slot I don't see.
If you wanted to boot OSX on an IBM PPC machine you'd need to write your own drivers for the memory controller and other little odds and ends but the system itself would likely run just fine. There's nothing special OF does besides run the bootloader which is far from proprietary because I can launch Linux at boot time as well as MacOS.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Took a look at the site, looks like the lightest system they have is a hefty 6.16 lbs! I love the ones they describe as "7.5 lbs light." They even have a 15" system that's 12 pounds! Jeez! This is not the future of computing, people! The future is a 1 pound, 0.5" thin convertible tablet with a touchscreen, a stylus, and wireless!
I didn't have a problem with "settings".
I called up and said: "I'm having a problem with my Macintosh Powerbook. It used to connect to my access point, but it stopped working a few days ago. All my other machines still work, so I know the AP is fine. It doesn't even see the network, and reinstalling the OS didn't help either. I think it may be a hardware problem. Could I send it in under my service contract so that you can take a look at it?".
The tech report representative responded: "Before you send it in, there are some things we need to check. Could you please open the AirPort setup utility; we need to check your access point.".
I said: "I am using a [brand X] access point; the AirPort utility won't work with that, will it?"
The tech support person responded: "I'm sorry, but we do not provide support for connecting to non-Apple access point."
I said: "But this Macintosh used to be able to connect, and all the other laptops still work. It stands to reason that it's a hardware problem with the Macintosh rather than anything else."
The tech report representative said: "Sorry. But you could take it in to an Apple dealer yourself and if it also doesn't work with an AirPort access point, then we will try to repair it under our service contract."
By the way, whatever happened? Was it actually a hardware problem? Did you eventually get the settings straight and you now just use this story as good FUD? Or are you really clueless and just trolling?
The Macintosh went in for some other repairs that coincidentally involved replacing the entire top part of the machine (which, I gather, contains the antenna) and it works now fairly well (the range is still pretty poor, however).
The settings are right there, and are quite straightforward.
Yes, it is, and I didn't want support for configuring the Mac. As I said, it was working fine with the AP for months until, one day, for no good reason, it stopped working.
I think it should be fairly obvious why he got helped and you didn't.
Perhaps it's related to the fact that he didn't have a hardware problem and I probably did.
Now, if you have a suggestion for how I could have gotten "more effective" technical support, please feel free to tell me, because I don't see it.
PC CLUB will see you a laptop with Redhat installed, or no OS installed at at all.
www.pcclub.com
If you're not so concerned about having this as your primary system (and if you're interested in the Libretto, then you're obviously not), then locate a second-hand machine that someone's about to get rid of. I still tote around a p166 laptop, and even though it's slow, it's adequate for writing, scripting, and even some minimal drawing and programming. Connect with your work machine when you need to xfer stuff, and try not to find yourself on travel just when you need to use gimp or the like.
If the manufacturers won't give you what you want, why buy something you don't want or that might not be Linux-compatible?
Apparently they do, I was unaware of that (and it was semi-difficult to track down on google, at that). That does present an obstacle.
;)
As far as I know, there's no such thing as a "do it yourself" Apple kit. Such a thing would be fairly silly. The customer base would be restricted to those that could buy and assemble components separately anyway.
In any case, the memory controller is an inconvenience, not a complete barrier. One important question is whether the differences are visible to applications. If you can change the controller while maintaning binary compatability (I'd be surprised if you couldn't), only Darwin would need to be modified (and I'd expect it already HAS been).
Also, if there were actual demand, the controller could be reverse-engineered and a compatible one developed (and this is assuming that the reverse engineering is necissary; has Apple documented the thing anywhere?).
In short: Yeah, oops, didn't know that. Not a 100% barrier, though, just makes it more difficult than I thought it was.
THIS COMMENT IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE.
In return for giving up rights, including the right to transfer the software to another computer, the user gets a substantial discount on the software.
The user sees the terms only after consideration has already been exchanged. As I understand it, conditions added after the sale of a copy, especially unilateral conditions in a contract of adhesion, do not bind the parties.
17 USC 117: "Any exact copies prepared in accordance with the provisions of this section may be leased, sold, or otherwise transferred, along with the copy from which such copies were prepared, only as part of the lease, sale, or other transfer of all rights in the program"
This states merely that I can sell my backups only if I sell all copies that I own.
"Adaptations so prepared may be transferred only with the authorization of the copyright owner." The license pretty clearly states that that authorization is not granted.
The genuine hologrammed copies are not an "adaptation" under copyright law, and that's the only thing I'd be selling.
The only way Microsoft could have a remote chance to make a EULA binding would be to encrypt the install files and to claim that installing the software without agreeing to the click-through EULA circumvents the access on the install files and violates section 1201(a) of the DMCA.
Will I retire or break 10K?
http://www.laclinux.com/cgi-bin/laptop.py
sells laptops preinstalled with a variety of GNU/LInux distributions, and MS Windows is optional. They come in a variety of sizes.
By the way with regard to the "Microsoft Tax", as far as I know, there really is no such thing. Companies that force customers to have an MS OS installed in their new system are usually following the requirements of an agreement they have with Microsoft. By the agreement, they get MS OSs very cheap, hence they do not have to add $100+ to each system to recover the cost of the MS OS. There are other requirements too -- e.g. It is not allowed to display the price of the MS OS as a part of the full system price. The MS OS must be presented as an "integral part of the computer system, without which, the computer is unusable". Ya right.
The iBook 12" and 14" models and the AlBook 12", yes; the 15" TiBooks have a very nice 1280x854 display, though, great for watching widescreen DVDs on.
Fink is the answer; it's a package manager/port system for Mac OS X.
Don't buy a recent HP notebook. The sound does not work in redhat 8.0... Also I would look for a notebook that has dedicated video memory. Another thing to remember is that linux does not like winmodems and all laptops use winmodems. With the price of laptops as cheap as they are I would go with a new one even if it comes with windows it's still cheap.
I recently bought myself a Siemens C1020 Lifebook, and noticed a funny thing in the manual. It gave instructions on how to turn off the notebook for both windows and linux operating systems, and also provided the following link: http://www.fujitsu-siemens.com/Linux
e r.shtm
I didn't pay too much attention to it, as I was more interested in running FreeBSD on my Fujitsu-Siemens C1020
But since you asked, I've just had a look at the site.
To quote: "Linux is the dominant operating system for Internet service providers (ISPs) and, for example, its use by public administrations is increasing. The co-ordinating and consulting office for information technology of the federal government of Germany recommended to use open source software in government bureaus. It was suggested that open software such as the operating systems Linux or FreeBSD could be used on servers as well as on desktop PCs."
Having a poke around it now, I've just discovered http://www.fujitsu-siemens.com/partner/linux/serv
which provides a list of machines, including laptops, which are certified Red Hat and SuSe hardware.
I'm not sure if you can actually buy them without windows yet, but they are certainly moving in the right direction, so if you can't find a winfree supplier, maybe support them. And, heh, just noticed as checking the links, you can download a desktop background with Tux on a surfboard.
Vs lbh pna ernq guvf, ybt bss abj. Tb bhgfvqr. Syl n xvgr.
try www.laclinux.com
Incorrect. Apple was still shipping trackballs in its 100 series PowerBooks when Glidepoint produced the first, IIRC, trackpads for x86-based notebooks. I had an Everex 386-based notebook with one.
"Peanuts, Mr Bond?"
These two companies will sell you a good notebook with no OS. check out there sites. They are just small packagers basically.
-Jason
i talked to dell guys at the linux expo a month ago.
i asked them the exact same thing. (actually i asked all the PC companies there. only dell had the answer).
call them up. they have a department that deals with "special" purchases. i.e. no OS.
you will even be able to purchase a laptop running RedHat (i think 7.3).
at their expo, their tech guy had a small dell running redhat. it was tough not to grab it and run. small sleek and with a tux sticker....
I think that you fail to understand the point of my friend, the grammar nazi.
Bringing irony to the Slash-masses
...is a dead Windows.
Windows software and with 90%+ of market penetration, I'd say that Windows is excellent (there's not many products and industries with marketshare like that).
So you are saying that Budweiser is an excellent beer? That Kangaroo Jack is an excellent movie? That Arnold Schwartzenager is an excellent actor? That the Ford Escort is an excellent Car?
Compared to what?
Market share has little to do with the quality of a product; it has more to do with marketting, and with distribution channel control. MS-Windows is no more a good product than Budwieser is a good beer. Both are watered-down, tasteless versions of something that should be robust and rewarding.
I liken the current state of the software market to the beer market of the early '80s. At the time, you could get several diffent versions of the same tasteless beer, with one beer leading the way, and innovating tasteless, watery brew.
Today, *BSD, Linux, and a few dozen other operating systems are like the microbrews of the early '80s: a small group of discerning people knew and loved them, but the masses still drank pisswater. However, it was difficult to find good beer at any but the most exclusive of pubs. Today, the masses still drink bad beer, but at least it isn't impossible to get good beer at your local package store.
Some AOS (alternate OS) users hope for world domination. I just hope for the day I can get a fucking laptop without paying Microsoft to build more shitty software.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
i'd suggest visiting www.eurocom.ca . i dunno if they have what you are looking for in piticular, but they have a wide selection of notebooks without os's pre-loaded.
Looks like some good deals, but do have a plan in mind for those marked "battery not guaranteed to hold charge". Might be worth making sure you can still buy new batteries for the given model from Dell.
Yellow Dog Linux is an awesome Linux distribution for the Mac and works quite well. I have my laptop set up with dual-boot into YDL and OS X. You get the best of both worlds. Boot into Linux all the time and then into OS X when you just want the dang thing to work. ;)
Also, the people at TerraSoft (makers of YDL) are also Apple resellers, but get this: They are preinstalled with YDL! I would definitely check this out. If they are selling the 12in PowerBook, order it from them. Then you will get a brand new MiniPowerBook with Linux preinstalled. Snazzy!
http://pixelcort.com/
It's a real shame that you can't buy Apple motherboards + OS X. Such a package would allow an existing PC owner (i.e. Me :) to upgrade at a (relatively) small cost. An ideal solution would have a co-processor slot on the motherboard into which the existing x86 chip could be placed, where it would be given access to a partitioned section of the machines resources to allow (near) full-speed PC emulation by Virtual PC.
Yes, I know it's not going to happen.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
EmperorLinux.com has the laptop you are looking for. I purchased their Kiwi model, which is the Sony VAIO PictureBook two years ago. The machine I acquired has the Transmeta 700 Mhz processor, today you can get faster speeds, 12 GB of hardisk space, firewire, USB, PCMCIA, and it even has a top quality video/photo camera integrated. They deliver it with Slackware or RedHat in a dual boot configuration. If you don't want Windows just erase that particular partition. That's what I did.
Well I don't want to get in to the argument over performance - that one has been done to death.
I want to talk about my experience with my iBook. In short I love it. Yes it is only an 800MHZ G3 but there is no perceptible lack of power, in fact I sometimes find myself marvelling at just how well it multitasks. RAM is the key with OS X, I bought a 512MB DIMM from Crucial at the same time as I bought the machine. Cheap and works a treat.
The machine is a joy to use, I hate touchpads, but I have got used to this one.
The keyboard is quite good, though on UNIX having to press alt-3 for # is annoying (I must find some software to remap that silly double s key to hash lol). The terminal software is fantastic once you have it set to green on black with transparency. Things like tomcat are easy to install. The machine is light and seems fairly robust. I use it all day at work in one user account for managing UNIX servers and writing proposals in Word, then take it home in the evening and use it for browsing the net and checking my mail. The display is wonderful. OmniGraffle is far superior to Visio and I the only MS tax I paid was for the heavily discounted version of Office I bought with the machine.
Last night after a couple of drinks I saw a PC laptop in standby. It looked so ugly with that horrible flashing green LED and its big silver case... I work with rack mount servers, I'm not obsesses with looks, but give me the dimming-brightening standby light on my nice white iBook anyday.
The build in Ethernet is great. The USB is great. All it needs is a serial port for console management - and you can get them cheaply enough.
Here's another perspective (I think...I haven't read all 1000 replies yet). You don't want to pay for a copy of Windows that you are not going to use. But the price of non-Windows computers are higher, if available at all (not including Macs). Computers are manufactured and sold at a razor-thin margin. Software, peripherals and the extra warranties are where most of these companies make their real money. Most (if not all) of these companies support Windows only, so that's where they plan on making their money. To change production for a small percentage of machines is expensive. In addition, it doesn't work with their business plan, because they can't easily sell their peripherals and support services. It is similar to cell phone sales. The phones are cheap or free when you get them with a particular service, because they make their money on the service, not the phones. But they have to ensure service over a given period of time to recoup the cost of the hardware. Companies have tried to do the same with PCs. They gave you a free PC in return for a contract for internet service. unfortunately, it takes a certain sized customer base to support this type of arrangement. Otherwise you don't overcome the expenses that the business itself generates. Microsoft is not directly subsidizing the PC market (from what I have heard, OEMs pay only a slightly reduced price for MS licenses). But because of the installed base, these companies have been able to create an enormous market for additional products and services where they can make their money. One thing that I have always found interesting is the apparent double-standard. One of the reasons that MS is being sued is because they are bundling functionality into the O/S, or with the system. But wouldn't the same argument be used against Apple if they had 90% of the market and controlled the hardware, O/S and software development and continued to include Media management, players, DVD/CD burning software, web browsers, etc. as they already do? Anyway, I'm getting off track...Linux is generally distributed free of charge. A much larger percentage of Linux users are self-supporting, or they use the user community. Most of them would probably decline any additional warranty on the computer, since it is unneccessary. I do when I get a one now with Windows. But it is the large installed base of neophyte computer users that DO purchase support, unneccesary add-ons and upgrades, as well as pay for help later on when their service has expired, that subsidize cheap computers for the rest of us. These are the same people that sales-people routinely over-sell to. Hardware costs continue to drop, but so does the margin of profit. As a result, it costs more to manufacture a computer that is different from the norm, and they can expect that they will likely lose money on the purchase without increasing the price (and probably even if they do). Incidentally, I would guess that no matter what PC-based system you purchase, money is still flowing to Microsoft. I may be wrong, but I would guess that manufacturers incur fees to Microsoft to ensure compatibility with Windows and to earn the Windows Logo for their products. So the development of the system board, processor, modem, NIC, etc. probably created income for Microsoft already. OK - I've opened my big mouth...flame away! Randy
Have your recieved them yet? I am thinking of changing vendors, my current local "put the pieces together guy" is getting out of the buisness, and I'm looking for a new source. Their Storage servers look very reasonable, but the SMP workstations seemed a bit more than I was used to paying for.
(local vendor puts together dual athlon systems, 1G Reg. ECC Ram, 120G WD HD, Tyan Tiger MB, generic 32M video for about $1500- no Monitor)
So, do you think they are worth the extra your paying? How are they peforming? Any compatibility issues? Hows their support?
Ahh, I see.
That's understandable. I hate to see that kind of behavior from an Apple technician, but you get that everywhere.
I'm glad you got the problem fixed. I hope you reported your bad experience to Apple though. Like any company they of course have the idiots on the front line.
I called once because a brand new G4 (not mine) had what I believed to be a harddrive crash-- banging heads against side of drive upon startup.. you know.. CLANK... CLANK... CLANK.
I think I bounced through 3 levels of tech support, but all were polite, and the last level technician really knew his shit (though he seemed to be just learning OS X). Of course that was back with 10.1 where you still needed to boot 9 to get just about any maintenance done. It still helps, but for the most part now you can use 10.2 to get everything done.
Funny thing is, although my boss and I insisted the hard drive must have crashed, in fact it didn't. Apparently something screwed up the boot code for OS X (9 actualy booted fine after setting the startup disk by booting from a CD). I suspect it was an EPSON printer driver. Maybe their drivers are just as crappy on Macintosh as they are on Windows.
Anyway. So we actually wound up saving the data (using appletalk via OS 9) to my PowerMac and completely wiping the hard drive as per the technicians request. He did actually say it wasn't necessarily required, but that he'd prefer it if we just did it to make sure (as in, god knows what else the user did). As far as I know, we haven't had any more problems with it, and my guess is that there probably was some way to fix it short of a reinstall, but it was easy enough so I did it.
The iBook is amazingly sturdy and the size is just right. If it seems "large and bulky" to you, remember that a keyboard is cumbersome to use if it's too small. Also, the price of a laptop goes up as the size goes down. There's a sweet spot where you can get a relatively small laptop for a relatively low price, and the iBook is right there.
You should also remember that all Apple hardware is built to fit the OS, not the other way around. That is, they designed the user interface FIRST, then they built hardware to run it. Compare this to Wintel/Lintel laptops, where the hardware is given and the OS has to handle all the idiosyncracies. The result is less than pleasing.
--Bud
In [Specht v. Netscape], the license was found to be unenforcable, but only because the user didn't have to click on "I agree" or something similar before installing the software.
In the case of gratis downloadable software, the author may have a better chance of showing its side of the consideration because the author itself provided you with the copy. Commercial software from the shelf of Best Buy is different because the initial contract you create when you pay for the package is between you and Best Buy, not between you and Microsoft.
Also see Register.COM v. Verio, Inc. where a "by submitting a query, you agree to the terms of this license" clause was found enforcable.
But in this case, they give up consideration (the search results) at the same time the user did.
When does Microsoft give consideration in the EULA?
Will I retire or break 10K?
We are in the process of ordering the systems.
Their sales department is great, but that's all I can say for the moment.
I like Dell and I have used Dell Latitude XPi for several years but now it is time to change it for more powerful. Is it possible to give old PC back to Dell?
Go ahead and get your iBook, then put YellowDog Linux on it. http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/
Cuz this weekend I finally admitted it: I'm a mac nut now.
.con boom, I did an internet company. I ended up using all kinds of Intel boxen, including single cpu dev machines and mp servers. Half of these ran NT, half Linux. Even one ran Oracle 8i when it first hit the Linux street. After we were purchased, laptops were key to showing demos, developing on the plane, etc.
I've spent quite a few years figuring out what works best for me - gone thru a lot of hardware too. Right before the
Fast fwd a few years later and I joined a consulting gig. We deployed a lot of big sites on Sparc/Solaris boxes. Around this time, I was looking for the same thing the orig poster was a settled on a 15" Tibook.
Now I'm with a company that has all their servers on Linux boxes (over 100 2-way web servers) and just hooked up a IBM 8-way Xeon Linux box for 9i (>1TB database!). We have all kinds of Dell's in the ofc.
I've seen *a lot* of things come and go and when it came time for me to purchase a machine, I saved up and bought a Tibook. This past December, I got the newer 1gz model. It rules. I like my Linux machines, but I pretty much have it all with my Apple and it's probably the most beautiful comp I've ever owned.
I have a possible business deal coming up and I've been on the hunt for figuring out what it will take to get a company up and running. I have 2 and only 2 companies in mind: Pogo Linux and Apple. Pogo Linux has the best deals on desktops and I'm really liking a lot of the Apple Xserv stuff. You can run all the server stuff I'd run on Linux. I'll pay a little more for an Xserv than maybe a Pogo server, but the company will be geared for the biotech industry and Macs still do well there.
iBooks/TiBooks are the only machines I could really justtify buying for myself. The run great, look great, have all my *nix utils I use and need every day, and also run the foofy desktop appz I need for interfacing with the biz people. For me, they were totally worth every penny.
My Sony Vaio laptop died a horrible death. The system would just shut down, not even a blue screen of death - all hardware. Now, my Sony desktop is dying I think the fan is giving out or it's just overheating.
I don't think he was an "idiot", he just stated Apple policy. And if you re-read my original posting, you'll see that I didn't even complain about Apple, I merely gave it as an example that you shouldn't expect them to support Linux on an iBook--their ability to support non-Apple products is very limited, just like PC vendors. The "bad experience" I keep having is not with Apple (which I think sells better-than-average systems at a better-than-average price) but with Apple zealots like you, who take any mention of Apple that isn't positively glowing as a cause for a personal jihad.
OK, I guess you may have a point about the OEM versions (the immediate topic at hand), but I'm still curious as to how to go about returning copies of proprietary computer programs sold at retail:
ProCD extended an opportunity to reject if a buyer should find the license terms unsatisfactory; Zeidenberg inspected the package, tried out the software, learned of the license, and did not reject the goods.
Perhaps, but consider the following hypothetical case: I buy a copy of a computer program from a Best Buy store. I open the outer shrinkwrap. I read the EULA which states that I can reject the goods by returning the entire package with unopened inner shrinkwrap to the store. I do not open the inner shrinkwrap because I disagree with some other provision in the EULA. But when I take the package back to the store, the clerk quotes the store's return policy and refuses to honor the EULA because I opened the outer package. Do I have a chance in small-claims court against Best Buy for breach of contract?
only a "recovery disk" which can be used to restore the Dell machine to its factory state. The seller did not transfer this CD to the buyer
If the OEM doesn't give the buyer a genuine copy of the recovery disc, then how was I holding my Windows ME operating environment re-installation disc, provided by Dell, in my hand one minute ago? And no, it isn't just a Ghost image containing the initial contents of C:/Windows and C:/Program Files; it seems to have actual Windows .cab files and application setup.exe files on it. I'm not even sure whether or not it checks for a Dell motherboard.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Woah there. I've been using Apple's for less than a year. I'm not saying Apple is all great. They're just like any other company.
And just like any other company, some technicians will be nice and help you with simple stuff like this, as the parent poster saw.
Anyway, I apologize for accusing you of being rude with the tech support guy. Obviously I have no clue, it was purely a speculative thing. Obviously I was wrong and the tech support guy just didn't have good customer skills.
A good technical support rep would have realized that despite the fact that you aren't using it with Apple equipment that it was in fact quite broken. Personally, I would have tried to explain why I was sure it was a hardware problem, and failing that I would have politely asked to speak with a more knowledgeable technician.
There's no excuse for getting treatment like that from any company. Of course, taking a couple minutes to take it to an Apple authorized reseller isn't too bad of an idea anyway either, unless your neighborhood Apple dealer sucks or is too far away.
Please don't throw the Apple zealot label around. Granted I'd rather be called an Apple zealot than a Windows user any day of the week. :-)
3. OpenFirmware-Yes, it's OpenFirmware, but doesn't it have propritary extensions for bootstrapping the OS? I can't install OS X on like an IBM PowerPC Machine. The Mac is NOT totally open-if it was I could do this.
Actually, back in the days when CHRP/PReP were cool, there was at least one CHRP PowerPC workstation from IBM, and one version of MacOS (7?) that would install and boot on that workstation. So at least in that instance, MacOS wasn't tied to any Mac hardware...
Enable 3D printed prosthetics!
You want small, light-weight, a *NIX OS, with not Microsoft tariff? Get the new 12" Apple Powerbook! I've just been migrating my Linux apps to Darwin, and have been in heaven! It's faster and more robust than Linux, and comes on the sexiest hardware around!
Move to Iraq, loser.
I had a iBook, Clamshell something with OS 9.1. I traded a rust collecting car for it.
I put OSX on it and it ran slower than 2 old people fucking. It sucked.
Suddenly none of my software was useble unless I bought VPC for close to $200.00 No thanks, $200 to run my Windows apps slow?
It felt wierd walking into a computer store, I was use to all that being there waiting for me to buy, having a Mac ment almost none of it was for me. I found a cool cheap ass CAD program in the bargain bin for $15, nope. Same with a few other neat things I would have liked to use on the go, not one was Mac compatable.
My printer and scanner wouldn't work with OSX, neither would my USB Smart card reader, since my Digital camera is older and has a serial port, this iBook was almost useless, and definately slow.
I looked into a new iBook, what the heck, OSX is kinda neat, but they were underpowered for the price and I didn't like being a 2% minority in the computing community.
I got an ESC Desknote with an AMD XP2000, 512DDR ram, and a cd-rw / dvd combo drive for less than an iBook, 3 times the power, faster ram & fsb, more software and once again I felt at home in a computer store, not like some freakn lepper with an Apple sized coldsore oozing puss from my face.
Plus, Mac users are to damm wierd for me. I'd tell Apple brains I thought my iBook was shit and they'd start freaking out like I insulted their fat momma. Whats that about?, are all Mac users brainwashed? It was an icky feeling when some dude, probably a fag, messaged to me on some dopey Mac site "Welcome to the Mac community!!" with 10 gay smilies.
Ok Apple attack parrots, start squaking all that iRhetoric BS about how Macs are better than beer, you know that shit you repeat so much you actually believe.
www.desknote.net
Buy all the parts you want and party.
I have a desknote, it comes with ThizLinux if you order with no OS, like I did.
Some Apple fag at the cyber cafe started talking the usual Mac shit with his 700mhz gay book. The same tired crap about how Macs are superior for audio and how osx was intergrated so well with the hardware, blah, blah.
So I challenged his stupid ass to a MP3 rip off. So arrogant was this pile of Apple vomit, he never bothered to ask what I had under the hood.
Big mistake. I bought my DN bare, no cpu, os,ram, nada. Threw in an $109 AMD 2100 and max DDR.
We took the same exact same wav files off a cd-r I had burned and ripped them to MP3. Not scientific, not fair, but fuck it I was salivating at making an example of this smack talking Mactard.
Needless to say I threw mofo on the boy, but wouldn't you know it. The fucker still wouldn't STFU. I had to keep reminding him my DN cost less, because watching his discomfort and getting whacked was giving me a boner.
Thanks for the update.
Once they arrive, could you let me know your opinion on them? You can reach me at ehle@NOSPAMMMERS!!.iit.edu if you edit out the caps and "!!"
Thanks!!
David.
Just announced by Lindows: http://info.lindows.com/mobilepc/mobilepc.htm
haven't purchased myself as they haven't released yet but the lindows subnotebook: no ms tax $799 reasonable spec check it here (no personal affiliation - just thought it looked good!)
Already has. It was called a "PC Compatibility Card", but they are long gone and I believe the fastest official ones were 133 mHz Pentiums. :)
--
est modus in rebus
Have you checked out Lindows.com? They are now, via idotpc.com and gearzoo.com, selling an $800 laptop. Preloaded with Lindows. 933 mhz VIA C3. 2.9 pounds.
I ordered a 12.1 iBook from terrasoft in december- in the end I was so displeased with it that I gave it to my parents as a replacement for their revision A iMac, to run in OSX and not boot to Yellow Dog. Certainly not everything was Terrasoft's fault (I'd be ok with apple's refusal to replace units with dead pixels if it said anything about that in the warranty), but it took longer than they said to get it to me, they didn't configure the machine as I asked, didn't include the passwords when they shipped it to me, didn't properly support the usb mouse they sold with it, and when I sent it back for reconfiguration it took a while. The engineer was nice enough to take the time to set up OpenOffice, but that's supposed to be an included package. I realize that mouse support and such are under development and hard to configure correctly, but if i wanted a not-quite-correctly-configured system i would have done it myself.
Ok, done ranting. Long story short, i'd try buying an apple and putting debian or mandrake on it if you want PPC linux.