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DirecTV Sues Anyone Who Bought Smartcard Reader?
MImeKillEr writes "The Register is reporting that DirecTV is suing anyone known to have purchased a smartcard programmer, regardless of whether or not they're actually using the device to enable stealing their programming. They're sending out letters & when people call to clear up the confusion, DirecTV is demanding a $3500 settlement as well as the programming device. They've filed 9000 federal lawsuits against alleged pirates thus far. They're obtaining lists of who purchased the devices during raids against the sites that offer them for sale."
So... they're demanding to sue en masse like this? Using lawsuits and demanding massive settlements? Isn't this the definition of barratry---abuse of the legal system for extortion? If so, do smartcard reader owners have the basis for a class action?
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
Guess I better not call them.
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Well, if they can get a guy convicted for something he was planning to do and had not done it yet (and it wasn't murder) then why cant they sue people for things they haven't done?
I mean, its sick-twisted-wrong but it makes sense unfortunatly.
The ultimate network admin tool needs HELP!
What happened to consumer privacy?! Sounds like an RIAA tactic to me!
--------
Free your mind.
This is exactly what we need to clog up out legal system! I guess the murderers and rapists can wait, someone's stealing TV!!!
I don't. DirecTV just lost a customer.
Is this sensationalism or an honest mistake?
There's a Mercedes gap too. I want one and can't afford one, but it's not government's job to do anything about it.
Damn it! I knew I should have read the fine print when I applied for that Target card - but I didn't realize it was going to cost me $3500! Get a free smartcard reader
SmartCard readers? They are suing the DoD?
Don't Tread on OpenSource
IANAL, but isn't this a little illegal? The smartcard readers don't actually steal service unless programmed to and then used to do so. Otherwise, aren't they just standard burners? That's like making it illegal to buy a knife because someone killed another person with it.
Damn, I could have cared less about Satellite TV, since I have decent cable access w/ broadband that actually works.
But that pisses me off enough that I might just go out and pirate Direct TV simply out of spite!
WWJD?
JWRTFM!
1. Sue everyone.
2. ?????
3. Profit.
They just kind of forgot that giant corporations suing ordinary people isn't too popular.
This sounds like one of those cases where paying cash for 'grey' goods is a smart move. Unless they have some other means of tracking smartcard owners? Not that I have, want or need a smartcard reader or DirecTV for that matter (there is little enough on telly to warrant much more than basic cable for the occassional sporting event). It'll be interesting to watch who pays up, who fights it in court and just whether any of this activity will dampen the desire for smartcard readers. Cheers, Toby Haynes
Anything I post is strictly my own thoughts and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the opinions of IBM.
I'm going to sue slashdot for making me view ads. prolly wont win, but I can sue.
They're doing the same thing. They're finding records for people who bought this stuff with a credit card and then S.L.A.P.P.ing them with a lawsuit.
Whether DirecTV can prove the allegations is yet another thing altogether. Of course, it reinforces you pay with cash for "sensitive" goods.
The dirty cocksuckers...
I assume you use a knife for eating your dinner. Since we all know a knife can be used for stabing people you are guilty of stabing people wheither you ever stabed anyone or not! Report to your nearest jail! You are guilty of murder!
...if someone's name is falsely or erroneously in one of these vendor's lists...?
-- Laura
Are they doing this to people outside their market, such as Canada? They're not allowed to sell their service here, but I know several people who have grey market equipment and have purchased a card programmer.
"Presumed innocent until proven guilty"? Or did that die along with "Racial profiling is bad" 20 months ago?
Still hoping for Gentle Treatment...
The digital age is starting to suck--we can't do anything fun anymore!
What about all those people with American Express Blue cards that got free readers?
Next thing you know, Kroger will be suing people who own Cue-Cats.
Chip H.
I don't know all the details, but I know that they tried to sue my uncle a couple of months ago for that, apparently he made a call to his lawyer and a couple of weeks later they had dropped the suit.
I don't know all the details but if it is the same thing as it sounds, then I don't think people have a lot to worry about.
Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
The problem is, they are sueing people with very little proof of any wrong doing. As many people have said in previous ./ threads, legit people buy from the pirate sites because the readers are cheaper and work better then normal outlets.
It's sad that you can sue anyone for anything, without even having to have a case. At least send people out to the locations and SEE if they have a DTV reciever on their roof (and not a subscriber). Then I'd say you might have enough proof, but even that is questionable.
I'm familiar with class action suits. Is there such a thing as class action defense?
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They are gonna have a hard time when they send a notice to the address I had my card & reader shipped to:
COD
John Smith
UPS Customer Counter - Hold for Pickup
(my local UPS counter addy)
Anyone who everr orderd a test card, set, etc., with a real addy and credit card is a moron.
I guess its time to sue Target(c)(TM) as well http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/sr=2-1/qid=10 58469368/ref=sr_2_1/602-0951896-7659812?asin=B0000 66PI0
when you collect your damages for malicious prosecution
goodbye DirecTV i had no idea you was contemplating suicide
Cecil: We see monsters increasing every day.
Tame creatures are getting more aggressive day by day.
It must be a portent of some kind...
The sites that sold the devices advertised them as signal theft devices. That is why the sites got busted in the first place.
Would an intelligent consumer buy white flour from a cocaine dealer? I think not.
It says that a number of the people who were sued , decided to form a class action lawsuit and the judge found in favour of direct TV . Of course it is being appealed but we will see.
Old news, this. As for suing anybody who bought a smart card reader, that's bull. They are going after the customers of sites that pretty much state that use as the purpose of the product. The only possible defense is that the chips aren't programmed (usually) out of the store to write DTV's cards, but thats been even harder to use since the hardware itself is being put together to send the right kind of signals to break into their cards.
That being said, they usually just demand money and the return of the equipment purchased. Of course the people they sue usually don't have the resources to fight the claims, so who knows if this will actually be tested in court?
This broad range of lawsuits is doomed to fail. So beacuse someone owns a Smartcard reader, DirecTV is entitled to $1500 of their money because they MIGHT be using it to hack their shitty encryptation?
So I guess Coca Cola is entitled to $1500 of my money, because I Pepsi instead of them. And Nintendo is entitled to $1500 of my money because I own a Playstation.
First of all they have to prove damages. No statistics here, they must prove that the user they're suing has done something illegal. How that's remedied, is up to the police. Unless they choose to sue, and then the user will be hit with a huge fine.
Maybe this is just a ploy to get DirecTV employees a bunch of 'free money' and smartcard readers, eh?
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
...Kwikset is suing everyone who bought paperclips and thin blade flathead screwdrivers in the last fifty years.
Realizing that their locks can be circumvented with a modicum of patience and the above mentioned tools, Kiwkset raided sales records at local home and office supply chains to locate citizens who had purchased paperclips and screwdrivers. Citing that no one who purchased the two items in the same month could possibly be up to any good, Kwikset sent out cease and desist letters to approximately 40,000 citizens demanding that they turn over the screwdrivers and paperclips to local authorities.
These opinions guaranteed or your money back.
1. Create customer base
2. Sue them all
3. Profit!!!
BSD is designed. Linux is grown. C++ libs
This works because lawyers are expensive. To the average person, the legal fees required to fight it are greater than the settlement.
So, in effect, what DirecTV is saying is "Give us $3500 or we will sue you." It doesn't matter if they have a case or not. They get $3500 or you pay more in legal fees.
Actually, this is more like Tony Soprano's business model than anything.
It's really too bad I didn't buy one of these things. I'd love to get the EFF and ACLU to take my case, given that I don't even own a satellite dish of any sort. Can we say $10B USD countersuit for extortion? Seems from the article that several judges have been seeing through this shenanigan, and might actuallly be willing to sock it to DirecTV.
I suspect that one of these choices is incorrect. Correct.
lol someone responded to my post!
DirecTV is suing anyone known to have purchased a smartcard programmer, regardless of whether or not they're actually using the device to enable stealing their programming.
Many will probably settle out of court.
Of the remainder, they may not win the suit if somebody has not used the equipment and can prove this. I guess in this case it is not "beyond reasonable doubt" but rather which side has the more compelling evidence. I can be argued that most people taht buy decoders use them, thus if you haven't you need some sort of evidence to back up your claim.
After a while there might emerge a pattern which makes it clear that most people that actually go to court win (or lose).
Tor
I don't live in the land of the "free". DMCA, RIAA etc. etc. and now this. If this is what life is like in a "shining beacon of democracy" I'm glad I live in a country where the (pseudo- socialist) government hasn't been bought by big business. But hey, at least that crazy guy down the road still has the right bear automatic weapons and the your poor neighbour with the life threatening disease won't be sucking up your tax dollars by getting hospital treatment...
occording to the law. that is blackmail, saying if you dont pay us we will sue you.
Would someone please enumerate for me the things I am permitted to do with the things I buy under U.S. law?
It shouldn't take more than a few lines.
Thank you.
...oh wait, isn't that everybody who owns a computer nowadays?
I'm sorry, but the whole lawsuit business is getting rather...silly
I for one blame the american judicial system, and the stupid people that seek to emulate it.
Machine9dotNet
The bully has it their way.
Imagine, an innocent person buying a product that could be used to reprogram other equipment, such as an electronic control for art exhibits, or access control at the keyboard, is now threatened to pay thousands of dollars in damages because a corporation decided that piece of equipment can be used to violate their protection schemes (and the DMCA). The hapless individual, fearing more lawsuits in federal courts (thus costing even more than the original sum of money), decides to pay up to this bully to avoid more troubles...
Oh wait, that just happened. This is the kind of events we really should support the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) for. If you happen to know anyone who are harmed by this, let them know about the EFF.
Please direct all bug reports to
Unfortunatly that only seems to apply in criminal court.
Look at the OJ simpson case. OJ was pronounced not guilty in the criminal case, yet lost the civil case and most of his fortune.
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
It's just a scare tactic. Who's willing to bet that no one is going to pay the $3500? I am!
Is it illegal to possess it? If not, then how are they going to prove it was being used by the owner?
"I didn't know what to do, I was completely flabbergasted. So I sent the money in,"
Nobody but a complete idiot would send away $3500 if they weren't guilty.
Another illustration that the court system and the justice system are not always synonymous. In situations like this, whoever can afford more litigation costs wins. The only people who are going to challenge this sort of legal bullying are a few fanatics who will fight on principle, and the few who use smartcard programmers for some legitimate business purpose and can justify the expense. The rest will fold up and hand them over.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
Holy Shit! Do those work to program DiretTV cards?
"to enable stealing their programming." But you can't steal anything that isn't a physical object. The author of this article uses misleading words. If I "steal" some of their broadcast how much they lose? A good question indeed.
You know, people like Sosa make this really difficult. DirecTV is doing something unethical, I believe. People are getting wrongfully accused in my opinion. But Sosa just rolled over and paid out $3500. These people are a problem because they help a bad system to stay bad. It makes it terribly difficult for me to have sympathy for someone who has such a lack of conviction, such a failed sense of justice. They don't care. Should we?
My Greasemonkey scripts for Digg &
Yeah, this is a great way to keep your customers happy. If I signed up for a service and then got sued for no good reason I'd drop that service in a heartbeat. That's especially true for something like satellite TV, where most customers probably have the choice to switch back to regular cable.
Developers: We can use your help.
Final Fantasy IV
:P
;P
That translation we got was a pathetic joke.
The playstation version was a little better, but not much. Better to download the hacked translation of Final Fantasy IV Hard Type off the net. THAT'S the real game.
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
Oh, I can see the paddy wagon now!
They're coming to take me away, oh my!
I wonder if this new -- Lawsuit spam. Just sue the entire country, hoping enough people will settle our of court to pay the laywers and make a nice profit too. Welcome to a Sue-happy America!
SPAM solution made easy: 1 spammer, 5 cords of rope, 5 hourses, and fireworks. Be creative.
Heh, I was shocked my submission of the above article as a slashdot poll was rejected. Sure would have been better than that "gee, I wish I could think of a poll" crap they have running right now.
deserve's got nothing to do with it...
...it appears that abuse and extortion are what our legal system is all about. Its not about justice, its about who has the deeper pockets.
"Send lawyers, guns and money..."
They're using shipping records/packing slips from the raided vendors - not credit card records (yet).
...exactly WHO purchased smart card writers?
This is what scares me more than anything. Did the company who makes the writers give up their customer list or something, or does DirectTV have the sales records of every electronics store in North America?
Next thing you know, they'll be searching all the grocery store "Saver's Clubs" membership lists for people who buy vodka and throw them in the slammer for drunk-driving. Pre-emptively, of course...
This guy sent his money in? 3,500 bucks and this guy did nothing. The RIAA college kids gave the RIAA 12,000 and 15,000 for having a fucking search engine.
They had a case! They could have countersued! Call a fucking lawyer, and take these bitches to court!
Then they have the fucking nerve to put up a paypal link, so dumbasses can reimburse them? WTF? Fight the corporate fuckers, I'll chip in for that.
If this guy has a goddamn paypal link, I'll paypal him a kick to the head. People who just roll over are hurting you and me. What's to stop Direct TV from calling random people and demanding money? It boils down to the same thing - these extortionists are judge, jury and executioner, and they won't stop until someone gets some fucking balls.
As a proud american let me reply to you in this manor.... Got any job openings wherever you are? The land of the Brave, and the Home of the free isn't either one anymore and I'm tired of it. I'M DONE! I QUIT. GET ME OUT OF HERE.
Here is your list:
WWJD?
JWRTFM!
I got slapped with this recently for buying a smartcard programmer that I was using to play with Sunray terminals a few years back. I went to a lawyer (and of course had to pay him!) and sure enough the cheapest way out is to pay them the $3500 regardless of what you used the device for. The cases are filed in FEDERAL court. Federal court was described to me as "A vending machine that takes $10,000 coins...and several of them at that" to plead your case before a verdict is even reached. Worst thing about this is that I've been a Directv subscriber for years and PAY for all the channels! My lawyer contacted the EFF and they wouldn't do a damn thing. Needless to say Directv just lost my ~$100 a month which is pretty #$#& stupid considering it would only take 3 years to cover the $3500. So basically I'm out $4K including the lawyer for trying to do some neat stuff with smartcard authentication.
Since you're talking in slashdot, a well know pirates place, you'll have to send US$ 3500 to us. Otherwise, we'll go after you, we'll call you names, and kill your cat.
http://www.legal-rights.org is the best source of information if you are a target of a DTV tort letter or potentially sued by DTV.
DTV sent out thousands of letters asking for the end user to settle out of court for $3500.00. If you ignore the letter, DTV sues you for $10,000.00 and gets a default judgement if you ignore that. Your best bet is to educate yourself (legal-rights.org, excellent place to start) and consult an attorney. A list of experienced attorneys is listed at legal-rights.org who have specifically dealt with these cases.
I think we'd all enjoy a nice cold beverage. -David Letterman
Do I need something other than a PC attached smart card reader and a knowledge of how to send an APDU to the card to unloop it? What is it that makes the "programmer" special?
The term "smart card reader" often confuses those new to smart cards. All "smart card readers" are also "smart card writers" (a term which will give you away as a newbie) in that they can send information to the card and recieve information from it.
Lasers Controlled Games!
Is it just me or does this sound highly illegal? When a place gets raided (assuming it was by law enforcement) doesn't law enforcement keep the evidence? Why would DirecTV of all people just be given this information when no laws have been proven broken? This sounds like another mockery of the justice system to me.
I know this is about satellite TV, but....None of this would be happening if people would just stick to ASCII and stop trying to treat the Internet as if it was some kind of big, distributed boombox.
Don't play into the hands of people who think the web is a broadcasting medium.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
This has been going on for quite some time now. Also DirecTV and DishNetwork are shutting down discussion sites. Read more at freedomfight.ca
DRM.
You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
...means nothing if you can't afford to defend yourself against a corporation's lawyers. Why are corporate entities, extant only by legislation, afforded the same privileges in the judicial system as actual people? (Cynics need not reply, I already know the an$$$wer.)
Incidentally, I notice DirecTV is joining in the *AA's efforts to hijack the concept of "theft."
-Carolyn
Like Daddy always said: if you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit.
This is an outrage! I am going to begin boycotting directtv immediately!*
.. i guess directtv probably isn't very scared by my boycott. phooey.
* except, um... the reason i don't have directtv already is because i don't own a television....
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
A friend of mine was targeted by this lawsuit,
I have placed scans of the 9 page pre-filing
that Directv sent him.
This is really a bad move, I'm hoping someone with some money to burn fights it since it's a DMCA issue.
http://www.chicago2600.net/directv/
Chicago2600.net more than a lifestyle, its a survival trait.
Uh...you should probably say "right to privacy". That sounds a little better.
Sorry, a smartcard 'reader' is nothing more then a standard sereal port with slightly diffrent voltages and a diffrent pin-out pattern. The whole point of a smartcard is that it's a programmable computer. You can build a smart-card reader with just a few resistors.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
... since they have gotten subsidies in the form of taxes paid by consumers given to them for the purchases of blank media and drives.
Personally, I think that if this is the case, we should be allowed to duplicate all of the music that we want, since we are effectively being taxed on it before we even do the act.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
Now we know why AMericans are so conserned about their rights to privacy - seems if any company finds out who they are they will be sued!
I'm glad I do not live in the states.
The reason the Roman Empire fell is because eventually nobady gave a shit anymore. It looks like the American empire shall go the same way.
Call this a troll or flamebait if you wish but think about it first, eh?
I reccently got a Blue card, and I didn't get a reader.
When was AMEX doing this?
Isn't it "nice" to be living in the US while seeing a steadily increasing move towards arresting/detaining/suing people who "might" commit a crime, instead of actually waiting until they commit it?
And you don't even have to threaten to do so anymore. All you need to do is have the ethnicity/equipment/political affiliation that labels you as someone who "could" commit a crime.
I have an MP3 player at home and MP3's on my PC, so I *MUST* be downloading copyrighted music.
I have a CD Burner in my laptop, so I *MUST* be copying software.
I am not a Republican, so I *MUST* be engaging in sedicious activity.
And alot of people/politicians/companies seem to be jumping on the through crime/preventive detention/suing before the fact bandwagon these days.
Scary indeed.
People who own lighter can be arrested for being probable arsonist and people with lighter fluid as bomb makers. I think it time somebody stood up and fought the battle all the way. I think /. readers should support a fellow /. reader who has received this threat for buying a smart card programmer and is not using it for illegal purposes.
What if the guy bought the smart card programmer for building a secure network because he/she was paranoid about privacy?? Its time these corporations are taught a lesson. Its time we the consumers reminded the corporations that we the consumers are the very reason why they are in existence and without us they are worthless.
I was going to buy one of those smartcard programmers to steal free wash and dry in my building's laundry room. But now DirecTV is going to sue me if I do. Damn you!
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Really, for shame. You know better than this. You read the article.
Those who would give up liberty in exchange for security and DRM should switch to Microsoft Palladium!
I am going to send out letters to everybody that owns a keyboard. They can be used to steal my service, and THAT IS THEFT! You all need to settle. I am willing to accept $2400 for each keyboard you own.
As of 10/06/03, I hate COBOL developers.
If that paragraph doesn't scare the pants off of you, it should. Why should I or anyone else have to prove our innocence to a private company?
..Does it make me a bulglar automatically?
Yes I admit that if you bought your reader at www.crackdtv.com well you kinda asked for it (kinda like shopping at Thieves r Us..?)
But if you bought it with another intend, then they should not bother you. In fact, they should not even bother you unless they have some proofs or a solid case.
Yes you can buy a gun at walmart. Does it make you a killer? I've used smartcard readers/coders for door entry in the past. It is becoming more and more popular in credit cards.
They are unfortunately using weak arguments to defend their case I believe. Like someone said, this is a blatant case of mass extortion / black mail. Take on the poor folks who cant defend themselve while (I bet) the lawyers get a nice fee of that $3500 (50% from my experience).
-- Leeeter than leet
But since this is a common misconception:
It actually won't interfere, criminal and civil court are seperate. You can clog up the civil court system with frivilous lawsuits, but the criminal system remains seperate.
Clearly these suits are not designed to go to court; they are designed to get people to turn themselves in and get these devices off the street. US$3500 is too cheap for anybody who really is guilty by intent to take it to court. And the "guilty" probably are the majority of the people who bought from those sites.
Of course the problem is those who are innocent. Courts have shown in the past that if you buy a device like this with the intent to perform a crime, then you are guilty even if you didn't carry through on that crime. And as the sites advertised as such, showing that was your intent is much easier.
However there are very legitimate uses for these devices, just as the article shows, and innocent people will get caught up in this. Just because the site may advertise this device as being useful for cracking DirecTV, I may very well buy it for other purposes if the price was cheap. Think about someone selling hardened-steel axes for $5.00 with the advert "You can chop down your neighbor's door with this!"...but at $5.00 I would probably buy one to cut my firewood. If it's not inherently an illegal device (which smartcard programmers are not) and my intended use was not illegal then I did nothing wrong. My intented use doesn't have to match that of the advertiser.
Until this point I've actually respected DirecTV's anti-piracy approach; mainly by counter-hacking and outsmarting the illegal crackers. But now they are going to snare a lot of innocent folks in an expensive legal trap, and setting a bad example for other corporations to try. The innocent should be able to beat this without too much effort, but it will sadly cost them a lot of money and time to prove their innocence.
What if somebody bought a smartcard programmer for stealing from other companies?
I don't know if there is a US law that is complimentary, but in California, there is a law against filing too many frivolous lawsuits called the "vexatious litigant" law. If you are designated a vexatious litigant, you have to get a judge's permission before filing a lawsuit. If you file a lawsuit without a judges permission you are considered in contempt of court and are sent to jail immediately. EFF?
Maybe this qualifies as 'balls'. Next time RTFA, and keep your kneejerk reactions to yourself.
I've wondered how hard it would be to create your own smart card programmer with the same functionality as used by these DTV pirates? Has anyone posted a circuit diagram online? It cannot be that hard.
I own a smartcard reader/programmer (most devices are both readers and programmers, it's just a serial interface to a "chip card" aka smartcard.) made by Schlumberger, and the SmartCard Developer's Kit from Amazon, which I bought to play with Smartcard support for Linux.
So am I going to get a letter from DirectTV?
The definition of barratry, IIRC, is threatening large litigation in order to coerce someone into some action, while having no intention of taking the litigous action if the person fails to do something. (I.e. DTV demands the $3500 and device from you, or they will sue you, but then when you ignore them they don't actually sue you.)
This is not a case of barratry, because DTV is actually following through with the lawsuits.
For anyone who cries "it's obvious what they were going to use it for", consider Nintendo going after sellers of Gameboy cartridge writers and EPROM carts (was it Lik Sang? Can't remember.)
Anyway, Nintendo managed to get them shut down because their carts were "obviously" being used to pirate games. Never mind that 90% of their customers were game developers (such as myself). Those who were releasing commercial games were happy to get their hands on hardware cheaper than Nintendo was charging (with the 3rd party carts it cheap to get all our beta testers set up with the game - we bought maybe 20 and they could then test using off-the-shelf Gameboys); the hobbyist developers finally had a decent source of development hardware.
Which is exactly the same type of problem here. I'm not presuming 90% - but at least one person buying a smartcard reader probably had a legitimate purpose.
If there's a moral to this story could be: Don't charge too much for your product (DirectTV & cable companies). And destroy your customer order lists as soon as those orders are satisfied.
This is an interesting tactic by DirectTV. From the sounds of it, this really isn't that expensive a way for them to not only stop some no-effort hackers from stealing their signal (as we all know, there are many who just won't stop because they are sent a letter like this), and make some revenue at the same time. I mean, if one of their operators makes 1 settlement per month, they have most likely more than paid their salary. Of course, they have to pay the lawyers a bit of money to sign these letters, but most likely not all that much (my guess is that very few of these actually go to trial, that would take money on DirectTV's side of the game as well).
What I'm curious about is if there is any organization of a class action suit against DirectTV, where the class is the people who have been incorrectly identified by DirectTV as pirates? They would most likely be liable for mental anguish and defamation as well (seriouslly, blaming someone for being a pirate could be very damaging to them, especially to buisiness people).
Here's to hopin'
DirecTV has begun filing lawsuits against anyone not legally deceased.
"My point is, if you're alive, then it's possible that you could be pirating DirecTV," says DirecTV spokesman Robert Mercer, "If you knowingly live in a world where people are able to pirate DirecTV, and you have the ability somewhere within you to do so, and yet you claim you are not - to me, that's a stretch."
In related news, DirecTV's earnings forecast for this quarter jumped to $15.75 trillion, as everyone alive will be forced to pay a minimum $3500 settlement for their potential acts of piracy.
My gut feeling points at two major contributing factors in this timeframe: the Microsoft/Netscape case and the DMCA. Why these two? Firstly, as is clear to anyone who even walks into a Best Buy or other software retailer, Microsoft is not being punished for unethical business practices. This precedent of a slap on the wrist (at worst) for large corporations who misbehave has taken hold of the greedy upper management in these businesses. They are not afraid of the U.S. government because it's clear to them as long as G. W. Bush is in place with an all-republican congress, big business has nothing to worry about.
Which leads me to the second point - the DMCA. It's a wonderful little piece of legislation that content providers of copyrighted material have been able to use to blungent anyone who so much as think about how to get around copyprotection mechanisms.
Therefore:
1. Scare your customers $h1^less
2. ???
3. Profit!
Seems to be a plausable business model to these people.
...and that's the way the cookie crumbles.
All your readers are belong to us, you insensitive clod !
Now, I think this type of blanket lawsuit is rediculous.. however....
I'm willing to be that the vast majority of the devices in question, from these particular vendors, WERE used to pirate DirecTV. Does that mean you are guilty if you didn't use it for that? Certainly not.. but a great many of the poeple who got letters probably ARE guilty.
This makes me sick, it's not playing fair.. however... DirecTV may very well succeed. After all, there is pretty clear precedent in the US about stealing satellite TV programming, or cable programming. (Please, on lectures about why it's not really stealing, you are preaching to the choir. The fact is, it's considered theft of service, and you can get in deep sheep for it in the US.)
If you were using that reader for some legitimate purpose, like goofing around at home, that's all fine and dandy.. but you would be the minotiry. A lot of those who will complain about this suit are people who DID use it to help people steal TV programming.
"Rock and Roll is no solution- my daughter singing AC/DC"
:P
That's how I sing it too.
"Rock and Roll is no solution
Rock and Roll is going to die."
or "Rock and Roll is nose polution"
yes, yes, off topic and all that.
On Wednesday parent company Hughes Electronics reported strong second quarter results, with $2.4 million in revenue, driven by DirecTV's subscriber growth. It ended the quarter with 11.6 million subscribers paying an average of $61 a month for service.
Ummmm...that's un-possible. 11,600,000 times $61 times 3 mo. (in a quarter) = 2,122,800,000. Plus other junk, like ads, pay-per-view, etc., I suspect that brings Directv's revenues close to 2.4 Billion per quarter. Think Carl Sagan, folks.
A little fact-checking or editing would be nice.
GF.
Lots of petrified grits
They're screwed. They have to pay up, or go to court to fight DirecTV.
Okay, the article clearly describes how DirecTV "siezed lists of customers" during raids conducted by former FBI agents, backed by law enforcement. Can anyone explain where the company gets the authority to conduct raids and sieze others' property? Land of the free, indeed.... if you are a registered corporation.
About a year ago our roomate bought a dish networks dish from her cousin that sells and installs the systems. He also sold her a smartcard reader that enabled "all the channels"
My wife seeing "All the channels" kept insisting that we get the same system. I reluctantly agreed to let her do it (I thought our cable was just fine though) How could one go wrong with the setup though? Every channel on direct TV (including playboy =D ) for the price of a basic subsciption.
Well about a month after we got the system we started to have problems. Dish networks sent out a signal that required us to reprogram the card. No problem, just insert the card into the programmer, attatch to computer and run a few things to update it... Cool works again. You could never tell when or where they were going to strike with the "zap signal" again. Sometimes I would come home, flip on the TV and get an error message. Nothing more irritating than having to reprogram your card every time you sit down to watch TV.
Then the zap signals got worse, they didn't just fry the smartcard, they actually fried the flash on the base unit. So we would be without TV for a week or so while we waited for our roomates cousin to come over, take the box apart, put some hokey looking things with pins across the pins of the flash chip and reflash the unit.
She would start the most ill logic fights with me "DON'T WATCH TV WHEN YOU GET HOME OR WE'LL GET ZAPPED!" she would tell me. WTF is it for then if not to watch it? (I don't think it really mattered if I was watching or not, the unit seems to be in a constant on state)
After 4 months of this shit, I finally gave up on the card reader. I set all our cards back to thier defaults and tossed them in my junk pile. I told my wife I better not catch her using it again or I would just rip the entire dishTV system out and there would be NO TV.
Now she won't get rid of the damn thing for the sake of argument. I told her from the get go I didn't really think it was a keen idea, and I think the only reason we're keeping it past the 1 year contract is because she doesn't want to admit it was a stupid purchase.
Well anyways, our roomates cousin sold a lot of these 1 year subscriptions this way. Despite knowing the problems with it, he still continues to use this as a sales device to this day. We've had a number of friends that went for "all the channels" only to come home to a black screen or an error message.
I just think it's irony that they're suing people for buying into their #1 sales hook. Hook line and sinker.
Stretch or not, Mercer admits that DirecTV has dismissed some cases after the defendant proved his or her innocence to the company's satisfaction.
I'm confused...Guilty until proven innocent?
So this is how he wants it eh? I believe I'll cancel my DirecTV and get cable - along with an additional $10 of my broadband. See ya BC
Those subsidies only apply to consumer audio recorders. Which is why you must buy an audio-CD-R for those devices instead of a generic CD-R. The generic ones are not tariffed, and therefore don't have the data written to them that identifies them as an audio-CD-R.
The CD-RW drive in your computer, and the generic CD-R media you use in it are not tariffed.
The tariff also doesn't apply to pro-audio CD recorders like this one
I can't remember if I had mentioned this before, but a relative of mine who is an attorney represented someone who was charged by a cable company for buying a descrambler. Basically the company that sold them got busted and their records were seized. They went right down the list suing every person on it. You either had to pay like 10 grand or go to jail. There was no "I have a lawyer so fuck off" going on like some people are suggesting here. Also you couldn't claim you A)never used it, or B) you never got it, C) insert excuse here. Lawyers aren't always a get out of jail free card. Those cable theft laws are the best money can buy so don't think you have a leg to stand on.
Anyway this case might not be the same since I assume their might be other legal reason to own a smart card programmer(I know nothing about the topic). Be warned that the same doesn't go for the cable descramblers they sell on the net or where ever. If the place that sells them goes down, those who weren't smart enough to pay by money order and send to a fake address etc are going to go down as well.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
Those little bastards will be embedded into all things: goods, money, and even into you (yeah, like cattle)!
Is this going to be the actual "sign of the beast"?????
The point is that the society (does not include us, the \. crowd, but the average american, deep into the technological chasm) thinks that those in need of privacy are the ones who have some terrorrist/unlawful thing in the works. And no one seems to care.
hrmmm, i wonder if they are goign to sue everyone who bought a soyo dragon plus mobo, they all have smart card readers built in them...
Well, there's a simple way to respond to this.
... Gosh, DirecTV! And to think I would've had to get cable from the mafia to otherwise get this kind of fun service!
...
Don't ever, ever purchase DirecTV's service.
As a current subscriber I can honestly say it's marginal anyway and that I, especially in the light of this news, should've just gone cable, which I fully intend to do once my year's up.
* Extreme compression of the signal causes color distortion of the picture--i.e., it looks like you're always watching a JPEG image that's been set to "max compress, min quality" even if you've got a $1,000 TV.
* Even if you've got kids and you've set your filtering to block questionable content, after 11 p.m. you're still entreated to fun "Turn to channel 595 for the HOTTEST in adult entertainment" ads that, while not exactly scarring to your kids, can still leave you wishing you'd just ordered the frickin' basic cable service.
* Some little frickin' "i" information icon keeps on popping up on your picture all the damned time, in the off bet that while you're watching your program you'll be duped into pressing the "i" info button on your remote to get the latest fun DirecTV spam-on-request they want to force down your throats.
* Did I mention that the picture sucks?
* The extra channels are grouped far away from the main local channels forcing you to switch through a buttload of pay-per-view and premium channels in the hope that you'll want what it is that, once again, they wish to force down your throats.
And now, in addition to all the above fun, they threaten to sue you even if they have no proof that you've done anything wrong to violate their service
Advice: Skip DirecTV. They suck. And if you just choose to not sign up, you'll never have to worry about a possible lawsuit
Chr0m0Dr0m!C
Land of the Free!*
*Some restrictions apply. Void where prohibited.
I had a
I call BS.
Your lawyer could have shot back a quick C&D to DTV and they would have went away. Few hundered bucks, max.
Should they really be able to sue people for listening in on the signals they send out?
I suppose I could use the same logic and walk into a crowded room, yell out a bunch of stuff, and then sue everyone for listening in without my permission.
What ever happened to companies not selling out your info to other parties?
Okay, probably the smart card vendors didn't get paid by DTV for the customer list, but I would be mighty angry if they gave MY info to the DirectTV goons for this exortion.
If i had to buy a smart card reader, I would pay in cash. And no, I don't want to sign up for a catalog of special smart card reader offers.
So what lesson did we learn? Pay in cash for legally questionable items, such as the big bad smart card reader, or hydroponics equipment.
Because they DID commit the crime, and their only real defence was not getting caught?
Because if you can get away with paying $3500 instead of getting a criminal record and paying a LOT more in damages for the various shit they can charge you with, it's actually a good idea, and probably legally binding?
Threatening to file a lawsuit against someone unless they settle out of court is not extortion, it's legal.
Don't just spout off early on to get mod points, it's incredibly annoying.
DirecTV is going to sue people who have bought microcontrollers, since they *gasp* can be used to build an evil reader/programmer? Dilberts world is not just a comic strip... Thomas
The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck is the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -- Unknown
I've had a DirecTV system since 1997. Now I feel *dirty* for owning one and sending my subscription money to corporate weasels. I got away from cable in the first place for the Geek Chic of having a dish on my house, and because I generally hate the cable companies.
Then again, maybe Dish will do something similar soon?
Ick.
Chris
It's this sort of thing makes me real glad I don't live in the USA.... These morons can't make a secure smartcard so are trying to screw money out of people instead of fixing it. I really hope enough people file criminal charges for extortion and a class action to give these bullies a serious kicking. The victims are really not helping anyone by rolling over to these bully-boy threats. I'm not familiar with the US legal system, but I don't see how it would cost $3500 to represent yourself in front of a judge, explain in plain English the legitimate uses for the reader and how this company is trying to extort money with no evidence - am I being really naive here....??? Wouldn't it be funny if a few people sent money to their Paypal link from stolen credit-card numbers cards so Paypal froze their account....! Whatever next - "you bought a computer, therefore you were programming smartcards and ripping us off..."
What about anyone who downloaded MAME or one of it's equivalents? Could Nintendo/Sony/Sega/Atari/etc. assume it was intended for piracy and sue under the same grounds?
A goal is a dream with a deadline
Let's say, for example, that I draw a comic strip. Let's further posit that I make money from it.
Now, I can sue anyone who's ever bought a photocopier, or a scanner and printer, or just a printer if my comic's on the Web.
This seems to be a precise parallel to the Direct TV suits. A photocopier is sold for the express purpose of making copies of documents which could easily be copyrighted. Clearly, since so much written material is copyrighted, there can be no legitimate use for a photocopier except to steal copyright-protected material, such as my comic. Prepare to pay, all you Xerox customers!
Bow down and worship my GE plasma rifle, 40-Watts!!!!
pleeeeeeeese?!!! (I've got if for sure this time, I can feel it!!!)
Would someone please enumerate for me the things I am permitted to do with the things I buy under U.S. law?
Yes, I will:
1.) First, you are NOT allowed, under any circumstances to enumerate a lis... Hold on a second, I hear a knock at the door ~A0adf#@GHMCC NO CARRIER
I assert that my comment is only my opinion, not that of any employer, past, present or future.
Hasn't anybody ever heard of a boycott before? Dump your TV and Satellite Dish. You'll be happier, and read more /.
People will pass up steak once a week, for crap every day.
So I went to DirecTV's site, clicked thru customer support to "contact us."
:)
Entered the name Never A. Customer
Entered a bogus email address
subject "Thugs"
Told them I couldn't wait till they went out of business.
And pasted the URL and entire article.
Yes, I have a static IP, but who cares. Not like customer service is going to track me. I don't have DirecTV anyway, and now I never will. It just made me feel better to vent by letting them know how I feel
That's a reader, not a programmer. Dipshit.
next the RIAA will be suing people for buying cd burners!!!
I can already see the credit dept being flooded with requests today....
-- Leeeter than leet
Tomorrow I will continue to let people know the injustice being done to other people they don't know using equipment they've never heard of on technology they could care less about with renewed enthusiasm thanks to your post. Keep fighting the good fight!
...we have electronic identification cards that use smart card readers.
Just stop paying. Call and tell them why. Send them a few certified letters; it costs them a lot just to deal with the receipt of a certified letter. Unless these guys get instant feedback, they will just blame the fact that you don't renew on piracy, and keep to their old ways. You have to think of yourself like the Captian in Cool Hand Luke: Direct TV is one of the people you just can't reach.
I thought Thomas Jefferson took care of this problem around 1791?
These DTV guys need to watch the History Channel more often.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
If I got sold cocaine at flour prices I'd be pretty damned happy even though I would not consider touching that stuff.
Ignorance kills, complacency kills, hatred kills, but usually not the ones guilty of them.
for this.
MMMmmm...vigilante justice.
In Soviet Russia, SmartCard READS YOU!
Call 'em up and cancel. Give them the reason that they are extorting thousands of people, and you feel that dealing with criminals such as them would potentially be harmful to yourself.
After a few hundred of these, and something gets printed in a major US paper, they might just shit themselves and change course.
I don't have DirecTV, I use Dish, but if I did I would have called already.
He had a great "business model": he would approach another kid, invariably one who was smaller than him, and say "I heard you were talking about me behind my back. So, you're gonna bring me a dollar tomorrow, or I'm gonna beat you up and take your lunch money every day for a whole week." After the first demonstration of his willingness to enforce the demand, the threatened kids paid up.
This seems to me to be nothing more than a refinement of the same tactic: pay up, or We the Corporation will proceeed to make your life an absolute hell. Most people will cough up the cash, because no matter how good their lawyer migh be, the corporation has deeper pockets and near-infinate patience. Just like Mr. Sosa in the article, people have wives, kids, careers, and mortgages that they do not want to see threatened by a huge legal judgement, lawyer's fees, and the stigma of defending one's self against the accusation of an illegal activity. Compared to everything that a potential defendant has to lose, $3500 usually looks like a bargain. The lawsuits are unethical as can be, because DirecTV clearly does not give a tinker's damn about the guilt or innocence of the accused parties.
Sadly, this pattern of abuse will continue until DirecTV meets up with a proverbial Mouse that Roared. Just like the schoolyard bully. What happened to him, you ask? Let's just say that he never expected to get his lights punched out by a geeky girl.
*buffs nails on shirt and walks away whistling*
Doing my level best to piss off the religious right wing...
The whole premise is wrong in my opinion, I think I should be able to do what I want with things people give to me or leave on my property.
If you are beaming your signals into my property, my house, my body, my kids, etc, I will damn well do what I please with them!
I almost have a duty to intercept them and decode them and make sure they are not harmful in anyway.
If they arrived unsolicited in the physical mail they would be mine to keep by federal law no questions asked.
You don't want me to do anything with them?? Then keep them off my land and out of my body, problem solved.
These are physical radio waves, you are dumping them on my property and I can't do what I want with them?
I dont think so....
Wax on, wax off baby!
To help balance the federal budget deficit and preemptively reduce highway accident rates, the Federal government today announced that all registered car owners will be sued in federal court today. The lawsuit requires all defendants to comply by immediately bringing their registered vehicles to a government run repair center and have a speed governor installed. Specifically, this lawsuit applies to all vehicles that have a speedometer designed to indicate speeds higher than the maximum allowed by law.
Ashcroft... "Of course someone who buys a car equipped with a speedometer that indicates speed ranges higher than the legal limits clearly intends to break those limits."
President Bush commented... "Well, if you break the law then you should be punished. I have never gotten a speeding ticket, and if I did then it would definitely be based on faulty intelligence - and I'm definitely aware of anything faulty at this point. In fact, if you're speeding, then you're - you're probably a terrorist. Its a good law."
AS the first line of the slashdot story points out. If the article title was accurate(ie. smartcard readers); wouldn't that mean they'd also end up suing: -Loads of european banks, which use smartcards -Sun Microsystems, for including a smartcard reader in all their latest workstations and sun rays -the spanish government, who I think have a smartcard chip in the national id cards? and so on.
I'd be shit-pissed if I pulled jury duty and had to sit in on a case like this. I expect the DirectTV thugs probably expect most of their victims to just pay up and settle out of court, but if there's just hundreds of these cases that end up in court, I'd say that's an awful waste of legal resources. A pox on their corporate asses...
It's the truth!
Maybe the Europeans should invade the US and 'liberate' the oppressed American people.
1. Patent "lawsuit spam"
2. ???
3. Profit!
...and that's the way the cookie crumbles.
get militant. Find out where HQ is and follow the techs around until you find their major uplink sites. Put some C4 around it and watch the fireworks. Then get into amateur space rocketry and knock out a few of their birds (also with some C4). The govt might classify you as a terrorist, but ehh... what the hell. Scratch one media conglomerate that needs to be spanked.
"Would an intelligent consumer buy white flour from a cocaine dealer? I think not."
:)
I would
It really doesn't matter how it was advertised though, now does it? Macrovision defeating signal cleaners are advertised as white-bread - and they're not. Glass bongs are advertised as 'for tobacco use only' - and they're not. No matter what else, these devices have substantial legitimate uses, and as the article pointed out the company is making NO effort to do any preliminary research - to the point of suing people who don't even HAVE a directTV of stealing directTV scrambled content. I'm sorry, but that's an asshat move, and a huge waste of taxpayer resources - you do realize that no matter how great this might be for direcTV they're getting money and the taxpayer is paying for all of the court time even in utterly frivolous cases like that one.
I am a physician. I have used cocaine (no, not on myself) to stop nosebleeds. Granted, it was in a green liquid form, and I didn't buy it from a street dealer or from an overseas cartel (as least not directly).
Let's not potty-mouth cocaine now. STOP ALL THE "COKE-BASHING" YOU GUYS!!! Damnit.
dammit! now I have to stop planning my murders.
...and that's the way the cookie crumbles.
Fusion credit card sent me a handy dandy smart card reader to use my Visa with (I never did) but my Visa is one of those that has a chip in it.
As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.
The American Public
Ignorance kills, complacency kills, hatred kills, but usually not the ones guilty of them.
...from Microsoft. It's only a matter of time til they go after folks who bought XBox mod chips, assuming DirectTV doesn't get a massive counter-suit. On a side note, this article just spurred me to become a member of the EFF. Way to go DirectTV!
I'm not an expert on such matters, but this might be grounds to get their corporate council disbarred. I know that lawyers generally avoid this as a matter of professional courtesy, but what they're doing here may be an ethics violation.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
He's a rich doctor who apparently can't afford to take the time to fight for $3500. And the reason he got in trouble is that he wasn't willing to pay $30 a month for TV. I'll bet he only sends the servents out to the grocery store on double-coupon days.
You are not sued until a Federal Marshal or Sherrif's Deputy comes and physically hands you notice. Don't evade them when you see them coming, however you can't be sued by letter. (This doesn't apply to non-individuals, such as companies and LLC's; it also may not apply if you have a lawyer you have retained, and they deliver the letter to the lawyer.)
It costs from $80 to $300 to serve process. I doubt they intend to do it for all these people.
I guess i'm screwed since I have a evil sun machine with a
smart card reader that I have never used. and only hackers
or pirates use unix.. so here is a big EFF you direct tv!
It seems to me that rather than create a secure system for holding this crucial data, they went first for security via obscurity ("who would ever figure out to just read the smartcard??") to security via legal action ("They own a smartcard reader? sue the fuckers.")
Isn't this the same company that decided to sue someone for all "possible" damages (damages that would have occured if they had sold all their units)?
no comment
Slashdot has a signficant amount of technological saavy users. May I suggest those users boycot this company, I am willing to bet it will hurt them (the company) to some degree.
Red Hat is for people who hate Windows, FreeBSD is for people who love Unix.
www.putertech.net
"Stretch or not, Mercer admits that DirecTV has dismissed some cases after the defendant proved his or her innocence to the company's satisfaction."
Makes me feel good knowing that the USA has "innocent until proven guilty" as a legal motto. At least the last time I checked the laws you were innocent. Now all you have to do is purhcase equipment to create your own smart cards and you're a crook. Never mind that you are NOT a DirectTV customer.
Remember way back when Windows 3.1 was God (Microsoft likes you to believe it at least). Ever install the mouse drivers for 3.1? I found it amusing that you had restrictions on the use of the driver... like making a copy of it. What good is the software without a Microsoft mouse?
Sometimes it's makes me wonder.
Has Comcast disconnected your Internet account? Same here. You can read about it at http://comcastissue.blogspot.com
I've been a happy paying customer (quite a bit - I subscribe to just about everything) of DirecTV for quite a few years.
Unfortunately, they have me locked in. I love my DirecTivo -- and while I find these sort of tactics very offensive -- I'm not willing to cancel my service over it. That said, I can only hope that others are less attached to their DirecTV set up and move to the competition.
Evolution: love it or leave it
Holy shit this is horrible. This is the result when you have huge corporations that can "legitimately" manipulate a legal system. First, push the DMCA through congress because it just sounds so unobjectionable, then, once the whole deal is legal, you can screw the end user. These are folks who pay up because they can't afford a lawyer, or who have been succesfully frightened by the sytem. All this was done simply to increase corporate profits in an time when their profits WERE ALREADY UP!
Honestly, its shit like this that makes me want to just move to some little expatriate colony in the middle of nowhere, and sit back while America fucks itself.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that anyone who purchased a "smart card" writer from a source that specifically deals with information/tools for hacking DirectTv systems had the full intention of piracy.
Anyone that had a legitiment use for one would have gotten a better/cheaper product from a more reputable source.
I doubt DirectTv is going after companies like Dell,TigerDirect, etc etc that sell these things.
My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch.
si@directv.com is the email address they have posted for reporting people with readers/writers or who are pirating tv. anyone care to send them an email? or, say, several million?
Yes, but you bought their reciever.
DCJJ
Tell you what to show how much you do not like the US why don't you stop using all services from US companies? Like.... Slashdot. Please do that the help the Great AMerican Empire impode as soon as possible. Pretty Please...
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Here you go!
Just because someone is being sued doesn't make them guilty of anything. In fact, judges in quite a few of the cases for this threw out the suit because of lack of evidence.
The problem is that a lot of people are so afraid of going to court that they cave in to these sorts of legal letters.
the thought of gay jesus with a big penis just makes me laugh.
I can't make up my mind if you're serious or a troll. While your points about theft are certainly true, your sodomist comments smack of trollry. Indeed, I wonder how anyone can have "principles" who is so excited over the thought of people being locked up in jail and sodomized.
If you want to be taken seriously, keep the post logical, PLEASE.
What is your Slash Rating?
COME AND GET IT, if your man enough!
It is simply amazing what you can buy at rumage sales, specially computer rumage sales!
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
With all the movie that you rent on Netflix for $20/month why bother with satellite or cable?
Btw - you can do the same - renting via Walmart for $15/month
I have the unfortunate distinction of being one of these people that is being sued for purchasing an ISO compliant smart card reader/writer. I'd be more than happy to share any information I have with anyone else being sued, as well as accept any information from anyone else being sued.
There's a huge flaw in your analogy, because there's only one real use for cocaine: getting high. (Well, okay, two uses, because you can also sell cocaine to someone else, but that's beside the point.)
There's a flaw in your analogy, too. Cocaine is also used in eye surgery, and is the medically best choice of a range of drugs for several other treatments.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
They would maintain the master subscription for about 9 months and then cancel it.
This interupted the service for their box as well as all of the clones. When the phones began ringing they would say that the satellite company had modified their encryption but there was a new chip available for $300.00. They would then set up a new master account - clone the chips and be back in business.
They managed to keep this going for a number of years : )
"I just think it's irony that they're suing people for buying into their #1 sales hook."
How is this their sales hook? Sounds like it is only your "roomates cousin's" illegal sales hook.
Also please clear up:
" our roomate bought a dish networks dish "
"we get the same system."
"Every channel on direct TV "
" Dish networks sent out a signal"
Which one did you have?
Whenever the offence inspires less horror than the punishment, the rigour of penal law is obliged to give way...
Yeah, and I'm guessing they don't keep that stuff forever, eh? Looks like you're in the clear.
Ya know, it would have been more fun to use some asshat for a mail drop and get his ass in trouble, but I guess no one saw this sort of fun coming.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
If you do not appreciate the way a company does business, do not do business with that company.
I'm not buying Direct TV. I don't even know if I'm going to be buying cable in my new apartment (AOL/TimeWarner) Cable modem, I'll probably go with the local cable, not the Time Warner broadband.
I'm not going to give money to companies that treat me like a criminal.
-- Funksaw
can someone please confirm if DirectTV and the RIAA share a common ancestor. maybe there is fossil record some where.
speudo code:
10 DirectTV="GreedMutationGene"
20 RIAA="GreedMutationGene"
30 while DirectTV=RIAA
40 print "you greedy sons of bastards"
50 wend
60 end
damn it, i just realized that this is and endless loop.
You need people like me so you can point your fuckin fingers and say, "That's the bad guy." So what that make you? Good?
They certainly are screwed. Part of the settlement is to turn over the smartcard reader. If you are falsely on the list, or someone did a typo like in the movie Brazil, you won't have one to give them, will you?
Life will then surely suck.
when they started making it harder to get guns if your a law abiding citizen. But, it's crybaby time when they start going after tech. Sucks to perceived as a criminal doesn't it.
People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them
Remember those old "Traffic Counters" that at one time even some companies had on their websites? If you haven't noticed, those have become less and less popular lately. But a new trend is going to start showing up on the 'Net... the Lawsuit Counter! It looks kind of like this:
You are our
|359,385|th
lawsuit victim
since 07/17/03
http://mediagoblin.org/
And therefore it's not an issue of guilt versus innocence. DTV only needs to have a "preponderance of evidence" to win, and they have the right to call you as a witness.
So, yes, you must effectively prove your innocence in civil court.
If anyone from DirecTV bought one of these to study it or to surreptitiously have dealings with the purveyors of these programmer/readers, then IMO they would be a target of the suit as well. Since it doesn't matter why one purchased the programmer/reader, but that they did puchase it. According to their reasoning, it doesn't matter what you intended to do with the programmer/reader, you have no reason to have one other than to steal DirecTV programming. It wouldn't matter that they were doing their own investigating of the black market programmer/readers, they are liable of their own suit. If they are not liable because of their reasoning...then isn't everyone else that purchase one?
I used to have a really good sig...
Artifical Intelligience is no match for natural stupidity.
Anyone remember that petsmart.com site, where the owner of the online store was suing everyone and anyone who posted bad remarks about his business?
He represented himself in court, which is what made it affordable for him to sue so many people.
If you are beaming your signals into my property, my house, my body, my kids, etc, I will damn well do what I please with them!
Hope your neighbour has patched into your telephone line to monitor your calls (just in case you're sending keywords that trigger EMF pulses).
Just FYI, the sites that sell hacking equipment for DirecTV sell "glitchers" and "unloopers". They are devices that work as standard ISO smartcard readers, as well as standard ISO programmers. Nothing wrong there. In fact, many of the sites sell standard programmers for those that want to tinker with it. But to hack a DirecTV card, you need the "glitching" function. Basically, the glitcher will initiate communication with the DirecTV card. It then tells the card it wants to write to the card's memory. At this point, the card goes through a security algorithm. Since no one has found the right keys to hack the DirecTV cards, the glitcher simply cuts it's own power and throws the clock out of phase. It then supplies the normal 5V again. This all happens very quickly, so the security steps are simply skipped. It's obvious that this device is used to circumvent the card's secuirty, hence it's illegal to purchase, own, and use. Convenient for DirecTV, since they don't even have to prove you're stealing their signal. Simply buying one is a crime.
Federal rules of civil procedure, Rule 11
(b) Representations to Court.
By presenting to the court (whether by signing, filing, submitting, or later advocating) a pleading, written motion, or other paper, an attorney or unrepresented party is certifying that to the best of the person's knowledge, information, and belief, formed after an inquiry reasonable under the circumstances,--
(1) it is not being presented for any improper purpose, such as to harass or to cause unnecessary delay or needless increase in the cost of litigation;
(2) the claims, defenses, and other legal contentions therein are warranted by existing law or by a nonfrivolous argument for the extension, modification, or reversal of existing law or the establishment of new law;
(3) the allegations and other factual contentions have evidentiary support or, if specifically so identified, are likely to have evidentiary support after a reasonable opportunity for further investigation or discovery; and
(4) the denials of factual contentions are warranted on the evidence or, if specifically so identified, are reasonably based on a lack of information or belief.
People are too intimidated by lawsuits, and it's a crime that they let companies like DirectTV bully them into forking over a few grand. Of course, it's also pretty awful that to defend themselves against this kind of thing would probably cost $10k+...
Insightful????
If you are beaming your signals into my property, my house, my body, my kids, etc, I will damn well do what I please with them!
Lets say I pull over next to your house and park in a public street. I fire up my laptop and pick up your open wireless access point and I use your Internet connection because the signals from your access point bleed into my car (and maybe I will even do mean nasty things with your connection as well). Is this OK too? Sure you may not pay extra for me to leech your service, but is it right for me to even be on your private network at all?
I almost have a duty to intercept them and decode them and make sure they are not harmful in anyway.
What if you had used WEP and I cracked it and got onto your network, would this still be OK in your book? Say I rigged my cordless phone to use the base station in your house because the signals from your base station can reach into my car. Would it be OK for me to use your phone service simply because those signals pass into my car?
In case of fire, do not use elevator. Use water!
Their behavior is similar to the BSA's (Business Software Alliance not Boy Scouts). Threaten with a big number, entice to immediate settlement with a smaller number, and always have the threat in the background of being able to ruin the person's business. With the BSA their "we can ruin you" threat is the full business audit: they can take your computer equipment- all of your computers- down for days or weeks. No business can afford that, so you'll 'voluntarily' take the 'negotiated' settlement. With DirectTV their "ruin you" threat is the big lawsuit: you'd be spending $10k+ in lawyers, you'll lose weeks of time, you'll lose a month off of your future life because of the stress, and if you lose you'll have to pay for their 20 $300/hr lawyers.
"The whole premise is wrong in my opinion, I think I should be able to do what I want with things people give to me or leave on my property.
"
Hello Mr Poster. This is the citizens that live around you. Since some thoughtless person left all this air on our property. We have decided to hoard it and let none escape. We realize this will mean that you will have nothing to breath, but we are self-centered bastards and don't really care, but in the interest of our public image we are sending you this letter. Have a nice day.
Looks like I'll be switching once my "committment" runs out.
The place to fight this is on two fronts:
- The courts. Because if they win even once they'll be back for more. "Millions for defense, not one cent for tribute." Because:
- The checkbook. So it costs them more in lost subscriptions than it gains them in settlements and "reduced piracy".
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
i just put DirecTV on my do-not-call list...
parents: oh dear. i hope we don't have one of those.
(cr|h)acker: let's DoS them to hell, that'll teach 'em.
slashdot: if you were using linux this wouldn't happen...
9000 lawsuits... jeez. imagine if everyone just stalled them. do they have enough lawyers to handle 9000 lawsuits that get drawn out?
In the near future, even cash will have RFID tags. Nothing can be hidden from the Loving Brother.
I know this is slash, but I spend a good 15-20 minutes writing a good detailed post based on RL with a few errors and you gotta be nitpicky? Save your bitching for when michael screws up on his spelling.
In that particular case, the article also notes, the judge ruled that because the letters were sent in connection with litigation, they were subject to legal privilege. The case is currently being appealed. With one exception, the article doesn't note whether the people concerned did anything like writing to DirecTV before taking them to court in the class action suit.
Incidentally, for anyone else who didn't RTFA, there are also mentions of several innocent users who have successfully fought this, amusingly including a guy whom the judge decided was an unlikely culprit, given that he didn't even own a satellite dish.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Courts are not a simple little thing that you can manipulate just because you are right.
:-)
Best summary of the law I've ever read
If you go in front of a judge, you better be absolutely prepared...
I'm not saying I personally would have a hope in hell of winning against DirecTV's no doubt extensive and amoral team of legal barracudas. I just like to think that if I'd really done nothing wrong, that I wouldn't just roll over and send them the $3500 (not that I have that kind of money to send anyway). Wishful thinking perhaps, as I've never had to face down a threatening letter from a corporate law firm.
Freedom: "I won't!"
Geez I wish I lived in a free country like the USA!
Engineering is the art of compromise.
What if you are using the smartcard reader to read your American Express Blue card? Is DirecTV going to sue you?
'Same speed C but faster'
And I don't mean by sending a letter and saying "Your Honor, we sent a letter to their old address and they never responded. They're not here, so we win by default."
Don't you have to prove you actually served them with a notice you are suing them?
Hmmm... Perhaps I'll send a letter to DTV and say "I'm suing you because your satellite internet prices are too high for me to affoard. Because of your monopolistic price gouging, I had to buy a house closer to work instead of telecommuting. That cost me umpteen bajillion dollars. I'm suing you."
Then, when they don't respond to the letter, I'll go to the judge and say "See, the other team didn't show up. I win by default."
NEVER open certified mail. They send it that way to protect themselves, not for your benefit
Yes it would be ok.
You don't have to have a lawyer. If you think you know the law as well as or better than a lawyer, you can opt to represent yourself.
"Why person can't simply go to computer and state what he/she wants application to do."
I don't hire a programmer everytime I want to do something with my computer. I've learned to be a capable programmer myself.
Another good reason to get a lawyer and not represent yourself is that's not just about knowing the law. You also have to be able to present yourself. It's very difficult for a client to remove themselves from their emotions which will hurt them. Lawyers on the other hand have no emotions.
Ben
Work Safe Porn
If you are beaming your signals into my property [...] I will damn well do what I please with them!
If only I had mod points now... the poster is absolutely correct. Any company stupid enough to deliver a set of data to someone's property and then rely on client-side programming to select a billable subset of this data to present to the subscriber (think satellite TV, cable modem service via TFTP'd DOCSIS config files, etc.) deserves whatever happens to their signal.
The fact that the tools overtly intended to circumvent satellite TV receiver limitations are illegal is appalling enough. That DirecTV is pulling this sue-everyone-regardless-of-intent horseshit is so much worse, so incredibly "over the top", I can hardly string coherent words together to describe my rage!
Fuck you, DirecTV!
We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked.
If you are beaming your signals into my property, my house, my body, my kids, etc, I will damn well do what I please with them!
Unfortunately for you, the courts have ruled otherwise many times.
Well, I'm glad I just got Dish Network today. It's sweet. I wanted the DirecTV because they use TiVo for their PVR but I settled for DishPVR instead. Not because of this mess though. But because DirecTV's sales department is full of complete and total wastes of flesh. After a month of being screwed over with, I called Dish and got a system in less than 3 days with absolutely no hassles and the kindest of service. Dish knows customers come first. DirecTV, may you burn in DMCA Hell.
I *really* regret not reading some apparent junk mail from DirectTV I remember throwing out a few weeks back. (I hadn't heard about this stuff at all.) Was it a normal white business envelope, with a color blue-and-white logo on the upper left?
They are accusing 8700 people and settling for $3500 a piece, which rounds out to $30,450,000 if they get everybody to fold. So people get out of it, but some people end up paying more. Their business model is working. From the article:
...Hughes Electronics reported strong second quarter results, with $2.4 million in revenue, driven by DirecTV's subscriber growth.
Now consider this. If they only get half of the amount they are seeking, $15,225,000, that's still more than five times that quarters reported earnings of $2.4 million.
Just some food for squat.
The cancel button is your friend. Do not hesitate to use it.
I vote with my wallet all the time. DTV won't get a dime from me for a long, long time.
I don't support stealing and I don't support extortion either! That's MY definition not that a.h. judges.
Very simple...no cash from me...see ya!
As we all know, knives are used to kill people.
Thus, we ask the Court to presume the defendant used the knife to kill people, as he surely did.
We ask the court to convict the defendant of murder.
- DirecTV
I like them just fine. You see I've never purchased a smartcard reader from a dealer that was selling them for the purposes off stealing service from DirecTv.
Dear Fellow Slashbots:
I want to steal my TV fair and square, just like I learned how to do in 2600 a few issues back. Now, I've found out that Directv is being mean and suing people who steal tv signals. That's just not fair.
I mean, I'm not hurting anyone! They are broadcasting those signals (which are radiation!) right down on my house anyway? Why can't I just *happen* to decode them with this pile of electronic equipment in my back room. I mean, it's not like I tried to circumvent all those security measures, I just sort of stumbled across them. And I hardly ever watch TV, because I'm so busy being an elite hax0r d00d. I certainly never, ever jerk off to the porn channels, either.
Anyway, it's just not fair, and I'm mad! Information *wants* to be free! The signals are calling out to me like the little chimpanzees trapped in cages in that Matthew Broderick movie. I just can't help wanting to set their little megahertz free so that they can be enjoyed by the masses (but please, please don't tell me I have to let smelly homeless people into my house to watch TV -- I just mean that the information should be free for *me* to use myownself).
Besides, I really, really like free stuff. Paying just sucks. Only stupid people pay for things that they can steal. Those evil, big corporations are so awful...making me pay for stuff. That's why I steal -- it's their fault for charging too much money! If only they'd give it away for free, I wouldn't have to steal it! Why don't they see how they are being so unfair?
Besides, I'm soooo much smarter than those whack trailer d00ds who used to kick my ass in high school. *They* should have to pay for stuff, not me. I gave up girls so I could steal TV! Now I can't do it? I GAVE UP GIRLS, DAMMIT!
I'm sooo fucking mad now. I might even fly around like Neo, with my fist in the air. Those Directv d00ds better watch out, because I'm coming after them, and I know kung fu and I'm a badass! I've watched the Matrix at least fifty times now, and I'll fuck those mothers up!
We must all rise up and fight the Matrix, brother slashbots! Who's with me?
GF.
I'm just curious, what would be a legal use for a smart card writer? What devices other that DTV use the card? I'm not familiar with these smartcards (basic cable user) but i would imagine that there are plenty of legitimate reasons to purchase one.
Is the purchase of a writer illegal in and of itself regardless of the intentions of the buyer (seems to be what DTV is claiming)? It seems to me that they would have to prove that they are suffering damages though. So you could have DTV and be using your smart card writer to hack your cell phone or something. DTV can't claim a loss can they? IANAL...
Thanks!
troy
DirecTV and Dish Network are two seperate corporations. DirecTV is initiating these lawsuits while Dish Network is not.
DirecTV has much stricter controls over who can sell and install their equipment so I initially assumed you were referring to Dish Network. I would be intrigued if this practice were occurring with DirecTV equipment.
Whenever the offence inspires less horror than the punishment, the rigour of penal law is obliged to give way...
So someone drops their wallet in your lounge that gives you the right to search it? A kid walks across your lawn you can abuse them?
In a Criminal Case, it must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. A reasonable doubt is a fair doubt based upon reason and common sense, not an arbitrary or possible doubt. To convict a criminal defendant, a jury must be persuaded of his or her guilt to a level beyond "apparently" or "probably". Proof beyond a reasonable doubt is the highest level of proof that law requires.
In a Civil Lawsuit on the other hand, the preponderance of evidence carries the day. It means that the greater weight and value of the credible evidence, taken as a whole. belongs to one side in a lawsuit rather to the other side. In other words, the party whose evidence is more convincing has a "preponderance of evidence" on its side and must, as a matter of law, prevail in the lawsuit because it has met its burden of proof.
..may be unpopular in the states right now, but take a leaf out of their book. Their government or big business messes them around, they strike back good and hard. They'll walk out, they'll set fire to goods in warehouses or at ports, bring national and international traffic to a standstill. Whatever it takes. DMCA, RIAA sueing people, Microsoft getting away with everything etc etc. Its rapidly apparent that the average american is a pussy-whipped wimp who, because Fox TV tells him so, believes that he is free. As far as I can tell, American citizens are the least free people in the western world. How many more wake up calls will be required?
blah
Lots of petrified grits
DirectTV does not have exclusive rights to deploy systems using SmartCards.
Therefore, others have the right to purchase equipment required to prototype SmartCard systems.
By seeking to brand anyone who uses such equipment as a pirate of DirectTV service, DirectTV is acting in restraint of trade in that it is hindering development of other uses of Smart Card technology. At least some of which might deploy products competitive with DirectTV or one of its parent companies.
Its interesting to see that in the Wilens class action suit, the judge is ordering the plaintiffs to pay DirectTV's lawyers' fees. I wonder, if any of the people who have received these letters from DirectTV were to go to court and win, would they also be awarded the same?
Weak fucking troll, buddy.
there goes my karma :(
MPAA to sue all camcorder owners due to camcorders being used to illegally record movies inside movie theaters!
After all, if you are using their self-managed PKI service, you most likely got their kit, which includes a ISO smart card reader/writer (yes, it CAN program cards other than the Verisign certificate card).
I HAVE one of these devices, and you can bet I'll go after Verisign if I get a Dave letter...
DTV needs to expand their production of smartcards to keep up with demand. They get money and recorders from the people the sue and then use the money to settle with the people who sue them back, they keep the readers. Sounds like a new business model to me. "We need more of X" "Ok sue people with X for much money." "Profit"
Until I read this. On the phone with Customer Service as I write this, cancelling my order. =)
vodka, straight up, thank you!
Answers to your questions: 1). No 2). Yes
Every company that sold these smartcard readers sold them with blank amtels. So when bought they are not capable of programing a card. They can not prove that you intended to steal tv becouse the unit you bought can not program card or CAMs (Conditional Access Modules). Now if you modified it with code to allow you to hack into a CAM then it is against the law. Buying a loader is not a crime and these letters and law suits are mainly a scare tactic. freedomfight.ca satlaw.org
Just reading the title of this post, I though "yeah yeah, another kook". But actually, upon reading your argument... it's very true. Good thinking dude!
With the correction you noted, this is correct.
I don't think this apparently contradictory two-tier sales technique is all that uncommon. Tier I, the main company, wants big bucks for their product, and the marginal utility is far greater for the deluxe version which is quite expensive.
However, the utility of the basic version is much lower but the marginal cost compared to a competitor's product is quite high.
The Tier II sales people get you to buy the basic product with the promise that for a few extra dollars you will be able to cheat and enjoy the increased marginal utility of the deluxe product without having to actually pay for it.
The reality is that the "cheats" are long-term ineffective, eliminating most of the gain but without erasing the otherwise high costs of purchase and service for the basic product.
It's possible for Tier I to quietly tolerate this as it leads to higher sales of the high-margin equipment and the basic fee rates. Tier II doesn't care because they make their money and then some selling the initial product and the cheats.
The only person who loses is the mark who bought the sales pitch in the first place.
DirecTV Feedback Page
I agree "yes".
If you are broadcasting something that you don't want random people looking at, replying to, doing malicious things with, etc, then it is YOUR responsability to secure it. Be it encryption or something else.
This is one of the most disgusting, flagrant abuses of corporate control over the US government that i have ever seen. I had to read the article twice, just to verify that it wasnt satire or the like. When stories such as this, and the recent crackdown on Kazaa users, i really have to wonder how exactly money could take something beautifull and free and stain it like this.
Im not trying to troll here, but doesnt this seem a little odd that behavior like this has multiplied 50 fold since our ever so wonderfull president stepped into office? I want clinton back.
Civil Lawsuits are governed by the concept of "preponderance of proof". Whichever side can produce more proof than the other than X occured or didn't occur, must win the lawsuit.
The burden of proof isn't on the defendant, the burden of proof is on both parties equally, who ever proves more, wins.
To everyone who actually responded to this (I guess that includes me now, too): YHBT. HAND.
====
Crudely Drawn Games
Since it seem that the United States Empire is moving more and more towards the concept of Guilty until proven innocent (or all the money is drained from you), perhaps the People should counter-sue DirecTV for all the future cancer cases that their satellite transmissions *MIGHT* be causing.
The neighbors on both sides of me have DirecTV dishes, and since they get good reception I know the waveforms must be penetrating my house, and thus myself and my family. If we magically develop cancer 20 years from now, who's to say it wasn't that particular does of radiation that caused it?
As long as the US still wants to pretend to be a democracy (rather than the commercial Oligarchy it really is), anything which enters my home belongs to me, and provided that my doing so doesn't infringe on other rights (making money is not a right!), I can use that signal however I choose. Heck, if I don't record it, I'm not even violating any copyright laws since I'm using the original signal, not a copy.
Alas, I don't have DirecTV... I am stuck with cable, so it's a moot point anyways. Maybe when they start suing everyone who bought a television, since they MIGHT be watching something that was once pirated from DirecTV....
Passively decrypting an RF signal that passes through one's body should be completely legal. (Assuming you don't use any copyrighted code to do so)
Both of your analogies involve actively transmitting and interfering with someone's phone or internet connection.
... and pick up your open wireless access point... but is it right for me to even be on your private network at all?
Fine by me, that's why I left the WAP open.
What if you had used WEP and I cracked it and got onto your network
You can passively crack all the WEP signals you want. I don't care, but I would think that cracking the resource AND using it would be some kind of trespass since there was no implied consent. A similar logic would apply to a cordless phone base station.
Please excuse me while I step back into my faraday cage.
End User Development Group
Office Hours: 6:30 am to 6:00 pm, Pacific Standard time [9:30am-9pm EST]
310-964-5424
"Hello, this is [real name] from [home]. I am a DIRECTV customer. I noticed that you have filed some lawsuits against people who own smart card programmers. I own one of these because I am the CIO of [company], a fast-growth security company focused on finding alternatives to biometric identification, which we view as a horrific invasion of privacy. Are you going to sue me, and if so, should I cancel my DIRECTV service now?"
"Hello, this is [real name] from [home]. I am a DIRECTV customer. I saw on the news that you filed some lawsuits against people who own smart card readers. I also saw that these lawsuits were tossed out of court in California, and that one target has won his case so far in Michigan. I will not support a company that engages in barratry of this order; I'm switching to cable. So long, suckers."
"Hello, this is [real name] from [home]. I'm an English teacher, and I'd just like to let your lawyers know that you made a heinous grammatical error in your Draft Complaint for Compensatory, Statuatory, and Other Damages, and for Injunctive Relief which you sent out to people who bought smart card programmers. On page 4, clause 7, line 3, you write 'principle design and intent'. You of course meant to write 'princiPAL', p-a-l, rather than p-l-e -- I'll leave the dictionary work to your experienced lawyers. Also, I would appreciate it if you stopped referring to smart card programming devices as 'Pirate Access Devices', as you do on page 3, clause 4, lines 2 through 3. This euphemism has already been reserved by portholes, which go in the sides of ships. Even in the colloquial sense (from Princeton WordNet pirate, verb, to illegally copy published material), I doubt that one can illegally copy satellite signals which are already being beamed into every head in the continental United States without our consent. Have a nice day, and good luck with those nasty pirates. Arr, matey."
Just suggestions, of course.We recently had heard in the office over one of the Yellow Machine that's made by Anthology Solutions.
Revised list:
Law-makers
Awesome furniture, accessories and cabinetry in Santa Rosa, CA: http://humanity-home.com/
I've never purchased a reader or reprogrammer nor have I ever been a DirectTV subscriber but this really ticks me off. I sincerely hope that someone gains control of their satellites and initiates a de-orbit burn for each.
With over zealous crackdowns on P2P, Smart Cards, and Various other Geek toys/software - How much longer before I have to leave the good ol USA before getting arrested for something job related?
Ave Molech Setting
And in other news, the RIAA today raided ISPs across the country, forcing them to hand over personal details of customers using broadband connections.
A spokesman for the RIAA told reporters that the only reason for anyone to need more than 56k dialup modem connections was for piracy.
The RIAA had previously attempted to shut down peer-to-peer filesharing by trying to identify the individuals sharing large amounts of files, but attempts were blocked by large ISPs such as Verizon, who claimed they were protecting the privacy of their customers by refusing to identify those who were using p2p software.
This new approach allowed the monolithic company to sue 'in bulk'.
"Obviously there will be some broadband users who get sued that have never shared any files in their life, but just because they didn't know they could doesn't mean we're not going to get money out of them!", said RIAA representative I P Nightly.
Come to Australia, multi zone DVD players and free ownership of card programmers.
There was an unknown error in the submission.
DirecTV is even shutting down companies that are not adverstising these devices as piracy devices. The company I purchased a smart card programmer and emulator board from did not advertise in any way shape or form the theft of satellite television. They were shut down after DTV sent in FBI agents undercover to their brick and mortar location and asked them if they could reprogram a smart card for them. The clerk behind the counter said yes and BAMMO..I have recieved both letters and am awaiting a summons.
I have contacted two attorneys who both feel I have a strong case. In fact the emulator board is still sealed in its original plastic, never been opened. I have never stolen DTV or attempted too.
I have been lied to every step of the way by agents of their "End User Development Group" who repeatedly told me that just owning these devices was completely illegal and that federal judges had already ruled that mere possession was illegal. When I explained my legitimate use for these devices I was told that ignorance (i am not makeing this up) is not legal defense in the US. Anyone still feeling sympathetic towards DTV?
The RIAA, SCO, and Direct TV are suing everyone on the face of the Earth... And themselves... And trees... And space babies...
No one is safe.
More at 11.
Karma: The shiznight, mostly because I am the Drizzle.
I am *SO GLAD* that I paid CASH for mine and had one of our Canadian employees pick the programmer up for me (!)
Back in the day it was doing a live decode (DOS then Linux) of the H stream with two serial hookups. Today it's just used to re-program the Hu cards.
Damn bastards
I think it's because he didn't want to promote a huge referrer list pointing from that device back to Slashdot.
I don't have a TV, never had DirectTV, what contract exactly would I violate for them to have standing to sue me because I purchased a the cheapest card reader I could find on google? I just don't get it. I'm not saying they should sue TV owners or or their customers either, but how can they do this without at least finding some evidence I'm up to no good?
If I got an extortion letter I'd be sure to take them to court, and call up everyone I know at BBC and the NYT, just so innocent people like the doctor would know to fight this kind of fraud even if you have a wife and kids. Or, if I lost at least more people would know to jury nullify all DirectTV cases in the future, even if the judge doesn't let them see any evidence of the defendant's innocence.
Without doing some investigation first how will they know they should avoid suing someone like me? It must be hard to say someone without a TV is stealing your cable service right? Don't they care because there hasn't been any press yet, are they just too hopped up on this "piracy" idea to see their folly. I can see how a failing business like the music distribution industry might decide to finish themselves off in a big legal barrage, but used to see DirectTV as selling a product people wanted at a resonable price. I might not personally enjoy television, but plenty do. Is satelite TV already a dying dinasaur of the digital age?
DirecTV isn't available here in Canada... So anyone who did want to pay for it would still have to pirate.
-- "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
- Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.
1. Directv is not suing "anyone" who bought a smart card. DTV is suing people who bought them from companies that were raided and shut down by the feds because they were breaking the law. That's a big difference taco. The seller of the cards is essentially the distinguishing characteristic here.
Here's an analogy:
It is illegal to buy things that are sold as illegal drugs, even if they are not drugs. For instance, if I buy flour from a dealer thinking it is coke, I go to jail for trying to buy drugs.
Now. Let's say that I am in a swanky neighborhood and I need some flour for a tart. My next door neighbor is Pablo Escobar. I know he has flour, because I called him and asked. He sells it cheaply, too, even cheaper than my local grocer. So, I walk across the street and buy flour from Pablo (thinking that it is flour, and it is). Pablo put it in a plastic bag, because he always seems to have those.
I start to walk out of the house, and the cops raid the place. I get busted for trying to buy drugs. Now maybe I have a perfectly innocent reason for being where I am with what I have, but it sure looks bad, doesn't it? If I had been caught in the same circumstances and the occupant of the house was Ned Flanders and the cops were looking for a rapist, I wouldn't be in trouble, most likely. Is it wrong that this difference exists?
Our courts are not truth detectors. There is no magic crystal that glows in the presence of honesty. Past experience and facts are all that a court can rely upon to make judgment calls.
The facts here are that all of the dealers here were shut down for peddling illegal pirate TV devices. Their customer records were pulled and showed buyers and what the buyers bought. Maybe some of them are innocent, but most of them absolutely were trying to steal tv signals. They are now caught up in civil cases, where the burden of proof is lower than in criminal cases and Directv has some pretty damning circumstantial evidence. It is (rightly) on the shoulders of the defendants to put up or shut up and pay up.
Mod me down if you want, but it won't change my mind that these people are, for the most part, thieves that are trying to justify their conduct after the fact.
GF.
Lots of petrified grits
Dude,
It doesn't matter which it is (dish networks for me) they both use these "cheats" as a sales hook.
Yeah, Sosa's initial impulse was to send the money in. His reasoning process on that was probably something like this:
(1) There's a time limit on this offer.
(2) I don't have the time and energy to deal with lawyers and do the research to handle this right now.
(3) The worst-case scenario if I pay is I'm out $3500, which I can't afford.
(4) The worst-case scenario if don't pay is that I'm out 100 grand or more plus a lot of time.
Initial result=>PAY.
But after he had the time to reflect more on the matter, Sosa decided to fight back. So far, he's participated in a class-action suit (and lost, meaning he's on the hook for at least another $10k) and has given public interviews resulting in the article just featured.
So, yeah, I think he's doing the right thing. He cares, and we should too.
I play Nerd-Folk!
(std. disclaimer) The US does not have a "loser pays" system, as many countries do. However, in general a sued individual can countersue a corporation for legal fees. As the other poster noted, the cost of losing is a significant risk for the individual, and an insignificant iota in the annual legal budget for DirecTV; so they don't begin on equal footing.
2.4 million a year in revenues is only about 7,000 subscribers (at $29/month).
I am sure they have more subscribers than that. So the word "revenues" is probably more like net profit, or _somthing_.
Mere posession of a device that can be used to commit infringement is no more proof of intent to actually infringe than buying a car when one is of legal drinking age is indication of intent to drive while drunk.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Scared the shit outta me. I called them and they demanded cash and how was I going to pay? I got some legal advice and never called the, back. Best part, I never stole cable, and I didn't even have a satellite dish! Well, they seem to have forgotten me, but if they come knocking again I'm going to represent myself and explain that 'm just a software engineer with an overgrown curiosity.
One thing's for sure. If you get the letter, so not call them back. That's letting them know you exist.
Direct TV is beaming a one-way signal into my house.
If you park outside my house and use my WAP, then you're not just picking up stuff I'm beaming out, you're also SENDING data, using my resources.
There's a difference.
Yes, I have been served with papers, and trust me. . . this whole thing sucks.
I was served at work, where i am a unofficial IT guy, with my fellow co-workers looking on as if i were a dangerous criminal. (Embarassing does not even begin to explain the feeling.) My first reaction was, WTF is this? I have never been sued before, i have never been in any kind of trouble before, hell, i have not had a speeding ticket in over 10 years. . . . but low and behold, here was a document stating that i am being sued for $120,000 by a company that i have been a long standing customer with for many years. As i read on, i found out that it was for a Smart Card Programmer. Once again that WTF feeling came back. . . . I purchased this equipment over 2 years ago for a security project that never got off of the ground. A company that i worked for wanted a better way to keep control over who used the company network, i found some info on smart cards, did a search for "smart card programmer" and purchased the cheapest unit i could find. (about $160 if memory serves me correctly), Only to find out that it would not work for what i wanted to do. And now im being sued! And as i said earlier, i am a DTV customer, have been for 6 years. If i were going to hack TV cards, you would think that i would do mine first!
Just to make one thing clear, I am a poor guy, And as a poor guy, there are not many options for me to take. Anyway, i dont want to rant about this, however i believe that it is a great injustice. This is just extortion, plain and simple. I was told that i could settle for $4,500 before i went to court, or $10,000 after the court process had began. Alternatively, i could fight it, and the cheapest lawyer would be on the average of $15,000 by the time it is all over. Obviously, not a "poor boy" option. And since it is a civil case, i am not entitled to a court appointed lawyer. So the only option left for me is to fight it myself. Which, if any of you have ever looked into the paperwork involved in a Federal Civil Case, looks like i have just over a snowball's chance in hell.
So if i go to court and loose, by law, they can take what little i have, and then some. One option that they could take is garnishment, and being that this is a Lawsuit for damages, they could take a chunk of my pay check for the next 25 years! I only make $12 an hour now, and have a wife and 2 kids, so this is not a good thing for a person who is just barely making it. This Lawsuit is designed to crush people like me so that people who have the money to pay the ransom, will do so.
THIS IS THE PROBLEM PEOPLE
what happened to being innocent until proven guilty? they ASSUME you are guilty by default and it is even legally enforced at $10,000 as other people have mentioned herein..
this doesn't even adress the fact that they b roadcast their signal through the air and it costs them NOTHING AT ALL for your equipment to be picking up the signals
so not only are you guilty by default but you also have no rights as to what's in the air in your own fucking house
that judge should be disbarred this is gross negligence on the part of the legal system which is supposed to protect people's rights not inflated corporate profit margins (as i recall it says by the people for the people not by corporations for the almighty dollar)
yea it's a rant, yea i'm totally unaffected by this but shit like this makes me want to move to Soviet Fucking Russia where at least the criminals aren't trying to shove (their) morality down your throat while they're extorting you and threatening your family.
Will they be suing all owners of new sun workstations? All the new Blade type machines have smartcards for user authentification. Tehnically they could all be used for that as well.
My Soyo Dragon+ MB came with a smart card reader... Whatever shall I do?
Oops, you said per Quarter. Stil... multiple by 4...
I was JUST 2 HOURS AGO out at directv.com - I am currently a Dish Network subscriber, and I was thinking about switching because of DirecTiVO - the integrated DirecTV/TiVO combo. Dish Network has a PVR but no TiVO functionality. (yes, a regular TiVO will integrate but only one tuner).
I was very close to ordering DirecTiVO and signing up. I like Dish Network better in general, but TiVO swung the decision for me.
I'm glad this was posted. No way in hell am I switching to DirecTV now. This swung it WAY back the other way.
I actually respected DirecTV/Hughes when I read about the very clever hack they pulled on card reprogrammers a couple of years ago (story here). That's just clever, and I salute them. Technical solutions are fine.
However, anybody starts shotgunning lawyers, they just lost me.
Your point being? Oh, that's right, you didn't have one. Thanks for playing.
It is illegal if you don't have a building permit...
Except, how much are they paying in legal fees to accomplish all these lawsuits?
> No question these are pirate devices.
I bought a reader and a number of crypto cards directly from a manufacturer, as part of a Linux SDK kit.
I have never owned a dish system. I have continuously had a cable TV connection in my current resident (close to 10 years), a townhouse oriented in a manner that would make it difficult to set up a dish.
I have been involved in Unix/Linux security systems for a number of years.
I have discussed X.509 certificate authorities countless times in the past, and suggested that crypto cards would be good root certificates for small CAs. (The private key never leaves the cards, when you don't need them you toss them into a safe or safety deposit box, etc.)
Now tell me again where there is any probable cause in my case. I haven't gotten that letter yet, but if I do I'll demand the court award them to compensate me for any and all defense costs because there isn't a shred of probable cause in my case.
To be honest, I was surprised to learn that the dish systems use the same cards I had already purchased for use in experimenting with setting up a PAM module to recognize smart cards - I want something a lot like Solaris where you have to insert the card and enter your passphrase, and when you yank your card out you're automatically logged out. In the long run, it would also be nice to be able to store SSH RSA/DSA keys on the card, etc.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
From: http://www.geocities.com/foogert99
Submitted to Slashdot, rejected many times...Remind me not to get service from them.
This sig no verb.
The whole premise is wrong in my opinion, I think I should be able to do what I want with things people give to me or leave on my property.
If someone GIVES you something, yes. If someone LEAVES something on your property, yes. Your argument relies on the fact that these "things" are usually objects, and someone is not leaving them on -everyone's- property. Radio waves do not fit into this category.
If you are beaming your signals into my property, my house, my body, my kids, etc, I will damn well do what I please with them!
Yes, you have that right. You can do what you please with them.
I almost have a duty to intercept them and decode them and make sure they are not harmful in anyway.
I guess my question is this. Do you intercept and decode every radio wave that makes its way onto your property? Or only the ones you think/know contain useful information, like digital television? Do you decode amateur radio traffic? Do you simultaneously listen to every radio station that happens to be availible on your property? Do you decode your neighbors' microwave frequencies from their MICROWAVE? Do you listen to every police band radio transmission that you can find? Do you listen to ELF transmissions designed for communication with submarines? If you do all of this (and more), then I think you win. If not, it sounds like you are taking advantage of a service that is meant to be provided at a cost, not checking to ensure the signals are not harmful in any way.
If they arrived unsolicited in the physical mail they would be mine to keep by federal law no questions asked.
Right, but they don't. See my first paragraph.
You don't want me to do anything with them?? Then keep them off my land and out of my body, problem solved.
Or just don't worry about them. Problem solved. Or... listen to and decode ALL of them in order to make your argument valid. Problem solved.
These are physical radio waves, you are dumping them on my property and I can't do what I want with them?
Yep. That's basically it.
...what ever happened to that mantra? (Did the RIAA kill it?)
However, the fact that he pays them $39 a month for basic service doesn't mean anything. If I were a satellite pirate I would probably do exactly the same thing because:
1. It gives me a legitimate reason for having that little dish on the side of my house
2. Ditto for the little black box hooked up to the TV in my living room
3. Best of all, if I'm ever accused of stealing service, I can feign offense and say "Surely you jest, sir! I pay my $39 a month and I pay it proudly! Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to my accountant's office to make sure they're reporting my frequent flyer miles and Discover bonus checks as income."
What I suspect is that the $39 a month your friend is paying doesn't begin to cover the amount of satellite TV equipment he's got. My psychic alter-ego Tarmac the Magnificent sees 2 or maybe 3 other boxes scattered throughout the house, all attached to various emulators, etc. for the purposes of getting free PPV, premium channels, etc.
We don't need no steenking Constitution!
Are they going to raid BestBuy and sue people that own DVDR's as everyone knows its for piracy and is never used for legit reasons..
Or how about raids on bookstores? if you buy a book on 'questionable material' you HAVE to be planning something..
This all is getting surreal.. Someone please tell me this isnt really happening...
I predicted this would be a bad year for lawsuits.. but geesh.....
---- Booth was a patriot ----
In UNITED STATES, DirecTV uses YOU!
1.800.347.3288 - call em up and TELL them what you think. I suspect the Marketing team has NO idea this is going on and will shit bricks. Definitely made up MY mind - I wasn't sure before, I am now. Any company that would engage in this kind of behavior is not someone I want to do business with.
I couldn't find a way to send this to him, so I thought I'd post it here. Not that he'll read it, but at least I'll feel a tiny bit better while I convince my wife to give up our DirecTV service.
-----
Mr. Mercer,
Regarding this statement:
"I have to say, how innocent is someone who goes to website that is clearly identified as a pirate website that is devoted to selling equipment to steal satellite TV programming, and orders the equipment, knowing full well what they're getting?" says Mercer. "That's quite a stretch."
Suppose I want to buy a gun, and I do the research to identify the kind of gun that I want. I find a store that has the gun I want for the same price as everyone else, but the guy behind the counter (which is, by the way, festooned with a"kill the [racial slur]s" poster) offers me an even better deal: the gun itself, plus a high-powered telescoping sight that he suggests "would be perfect for letting you kill someone -- or something -- at a distance". Now, I'm disgusted by his attitude and by the posters, but boy, that telescoping sight is really really cool, and I can't get it anywhere else, so I make the purchase and happily go off to hunt lions and tigers and bears, oh my.
Now, should I be arrested for murdering people, because I bought the gun and sight from someone who openly thinks that murdering people is a good idea? Should I be sued in civil court for promoting racial violence because I made the purchase there? I would be interested to hear if you can justify it. Just remember, you can't compare it to an illegal gun purchase, because the devices in question are not illegal -- just like most devices that have legitimate and illegitimate uses.
I am a DirecTiVo subscriber, and have been for some time. Tonight, I'll be doing my best to convince my wife that it's time to move on to something better, like less TV or the local cable affiliate. In the meantime, you might want to consider that your company has become an extortionist. I would imagine your shareholders are pleased, since this extortion increases actual revenue by extracting settlements from the innocent along with the guilty in a fashion that covers the cost of operations, while potential revenue lost to pirating can never be turned into actual revenue by any legitimate means. But you already knew that -- after all, I've been a subscriber for years, and you haven't made $3,500 out of me yet.
On one hand, I despise litigation like this.
On the other hand, I wish all the people who take broadcast decoding for granted would go to hell.
You see, I would never go to the trouble of using a device to decode scrambled broadcast signals. It's just not the sort of contraption that interests me. I tend to do without entertainment rather than meet such a barrier to its consumption. It's in the same category of "not going to the theatre because the parking lot is too full."
But this DTV thing goes much further than that.
You see, I know PLENTY of people who use a clandestine tv receiver. I've watched them gloat over their cards as if they had found a Willie Mays rookie card in an attic or something. I've seen them setup all kinds of PC contraptions to fake the receiver. Sure, I run in a circle of nerds, students, blacksmiths, musicians, and accountants, so my experience is somewhat skewed -- but still, I've never met ANYBODY who actually pays retail for DTV, yet I know all kinds of people who do the whole card-hacking trick.
From my limited sample, I've deduced that a large number of people get their signals for free.
Because I know this, I would never, ever, buy the service. Wouldn't even consider it. I don't care what it costs. Knowing that a large number of people get it free, and take getting it free for granted, is enough to stop me from any consideration of buying it. As far as doing the card thing, I could care less. If I were going to put that much effort into anything, it would be toward my music gear, not my TV. I'd do without TV first.
So in a way, part of me hopes the plaintiff prevails. I'd be a lot happier if they could come up with a technical solution that works -- because I know the legal solution never will.
Seriously. If I didn't have knowledge that the service was commonly gotten for free, I might take notice of the product. Might even consider buying it. But not in the current situation.
Even if it's worth the price, I'd not voluntarily enter into something that makes me feel like a chump.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Well, 1. my wifi point is a receiver, and I am not sure if you should be allowed to do anything to my receiver, that is rather different, I am not doing anything to a receiver on their bird, just using what is in my yard or house they put there.
:)
But, 2. If I am broadcasting my traffic and it extends beyond my property into the public space or my neighbor's space, then yes, they and you can do what you want with them, its my fault for letting it happen.
Now I'm off to build a feraday cage around my yard
Wax on, wax off baby!
"Lesse....WGN...not harmful.
Telemundo....not harmful.
FoxNews...pretty borderline.
Playboy....not harmful.
Playboy....not harmful.
Playboy...not harmful..."
You know what?
If my memory is correct, didn't that also include murdering opposing hackers? Or was that another company that murdered DTV's hacker when DTV hacked the other Sat-cast company's cards, and passed them around?
I'm sorry. I get so confused. Please keep it simple for me, like the other posters do. "DTV's business model is that of Tony Soprano".
It's easier to remember that way.
...that you don't live in the States. One less thing to run over.
... a gun cannot be qualified as a circumvention device.
:-/
So, you cant be sued for having a gun (and possibly killing a person in the future) -- but you can be sued for having bought a card reader?!?
Oops, almost forgot! Were talking about profits here, not lives!
My bad...
Okay. That's their business decision, though actually, in my book, they should have been able to sue the firms that made and distributed the genetically modified corn, because they contaminated Gerber's food supply chain. But that's not the way it works.
In reality, the Gen-Eng companies sued the rest of the corn farmers for using their corn genes IP (remember, they contaminated the public domain stuff) and won.
I don't know what the proper response is: maybe the Amish way of doing things. Maybe, just leaving, and letting them find their own way, or not. But something is wrong.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
I was on the impression this is how the legal system works here in USA. Meaning. The defendant only has to prove the device has legal uses (security, automatization, etc)... At that point HUGES has to prove the device was used for something ilegal!
BSD licensed software can't be stolen....
It's an unfortunate situation. The legal system has far outgrown the DIY aspect of self-representation in the same way that most sciences have outgrown the DIY basement laboratory.
----------------
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
If I used such a service, I'd simply unsubscribe.
What a wonderful service this TV service must provide! I can barely find any content on TV I want to watch, and the really good quality programs often go out on free to air non-commercial channels anyway. I've also noticed that when I miss a program I'd decided to try an watch, I don't die.
I'd rather be listening to radio or reading a good book or having a conversation with someone or going for a mountain bike ride or a swim or rock-climbing or going to the cinema or fixing up my house or cook a nice meal or even working...
RG
If they know of 9000 people who bought a device just to get around paying for one pay TV system, how many people out there can rip off the new credit/debit chips cards? I see the ability of ripping off the cable company as something most people will tell their friends down at the pub but when it comes to stealing cash out of someones account, most people that could do that won't talk about it. 5 years ago the number of fake chip cards had already exceeded the number of fake mag stripe cards by several million so I wonder how bad the fraud rate is on these new banking smart cards.
Sounds like you're bullshitting. Admit it troll, you just made the whole thing up...
Office of Signal Integrity? For vague yet disturbing bureaucracy names, that's almost as good as Ministry of Truth! I'm guessing that these are the folks responsible for all the black helicopters I've been seeing.
I had dish before my parents divorced.. we first got directv but their stupid packaging things sucked.. this was years and years ago and you had to buy some $10 package to get crappy channels we never watched like MTV, just so we can get 1 channel we wanted, Nickelodeon (my brother was maybe 10 at the time and loved Nick)
We returned it 3 days later and waited for Dish network to launch (my dad found out about them from TBN..dont ask why he was watching TBN)
Dish was awesome, then when my parents split like 2 years later the dish went with my dad. He now has a box in every room.. dish network is awesome, directv sucks
Look at the recent bills being introduced, that would make this 'potential use' sort of suit a federal offence, subject to arrest.
And look at the DMCA, there have been arrests due to 'potental useage' issues..
Just beacuse he was off slightly doesnt make it any less scary.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
You are a legitimate subscriber to the service? i.e. you pay for all your stations... but say perhaps you are trying to tune everything in for a TV decoded on your linux box, if you're the linux-uberhacker type (remember hacker != cracker).
So you're decoding the signal... but you're paying for it anyways. Is it still illegal? Is DTV allowed to say what I can decode my signal for, or how? Just wondering... (my guess is they'd probably try to regardless)
Can you point me to how you have set this up?
I would really like to setup something like that for my backup server with loop-aes hacked in there.
It would rock my world if you could point this out to me.
"Not my manner of thinking but the manner of thinking of others has been the source of my unhappiness." - M
I submitted this exact story 3 weeks ago but it did not get posted. It actually goes a step farther.
DirectTV sent out letters to people that they were suing. In the manner in which they did it, many people believed it to be a scam so they did not reply. The courts ruled that anyone that does not respond automatically is ordered to pay the settlement ammount.
Many of the people are now trying to fight the judgement for a few reasons:
DirectTV filed a lawsuit on every customer they found in the company's records that theyve raided without asking:
did the people recieve the product?
did they use it to steal DirectTV broadcasts?
did they use it for legitimate use?
There are many other questions they chose not ask.
This is just another way that Big Companies can do what they please without regard for the constitution. You can thank the corrupt American legal system and our wonderful politicians.
Thank you America, Thank you!
I agree, if this guy wasn't stealing satellite then he copped out. If it was a few hundred dollars then I could see someone paying up to avoid any future hassles, but $3500? Who the hell has $3500 to throw away for nothing at the drop of a hat, yet not have the time or money to fight back?
Just as the subject says, this same thing happened to me, but I didn't do anything wrong, unless you count buying the card reader as "something wrong".
In the quickest of analogies I would like to point out the error in the way DTV is doing business in this situation.
"A man walks into a gun shop and buys a gun with the intention of harming someone other than himself. The man comes to his senses before committing this atrocious act. Should the man be arrested for simply having the gun or for buying it, even though he did nothing wrong?"
This is exactly what happened to me. I will admit a friend told me about doing this exact thing. I started buying the necessary components, but lost interest as I knew it was not a good idea. I'm not Mr Perfect, but I have some moral compass. Anyway I get said letter and in short time clear it up without paying a dime, because I did nothing wrong, besides buying the device.
My real comment is that I though we were all Innocent until proven Guilty? If the device in question is not illegal then how can someone be sued when they have done nothing wrong.
Just my thoughts and ramblings.
The later we may be taking about a few cents per diluted share. The former we are taking about an innocents person life.
From the looks of our laws, the "few cents a share" means more than an innocent life.
Why are criminal corporations still in business? (Enron, Shell, Exxon, and a slew of others have financed armed raids in various countries, in which people have died.) Why is it that someone can share a file on a P2P network and end up paying the RIAA for the rest of their lives, but the guy in charge of the company (Enron) that fucked over California (and a good chunk of the rest of the world) goes free, without paying a dime?
I guess it means the biggest crime is not being rich.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
I think his point is that the people in power in the US are a bunch of fags.
"but I spend a good 15-20 minutes writing a good detailed post based on RL with a few errors and you gotta be nitpicky?"
Except that, if this were truly real life, whose signal it was you were stealing would not be vague. Aside from the corporate logos on the dish, receiver box, and possibly even the smart card, there's also the logos on the menu guides and the commercials from the provider on the channels you watch that you'd have to conveniently "forget" in order to confuse the two. If you watch one, odds are you won't even hear about the other one on the channels you watch.
This isn't a typo here, this is something that throws your entire post into doubt, even without reading the rest of the posts on this thread.
"If you are beaming your signals into my property, my house, my body, my kids, etc, I will damn well do what I please with them!"
I see we aren't familiar with the concepts of rights-of-way or servitudes. Because that's essentially what EM broadcasts are in the United States.
"I almost have a duty to intercept them and decode them and make sure they are not harmful in anyway."
OK, that's just downright funny. Aside from the dangers you could detect with a signal strength meter (and it seems pretty obvious these microwaves have yet to turn you into a crispy critter), the only way these signals could be "harmful" to you is their content (maybe you think of pr0n as "harmful"). And if you didn't decode the signal, you wouldn't know about the "harm" and there would be no harm to be had on your part.
"You don't want me to do anything with them?? Then keep them off my land and out of my body, problem solved."
Look at your deed and see what it has to say about rights-of-way and servitudes. Especially the bit about how, by signing the document, you explicitly let these people do exactly what you're complaining about. If you want to go off in the radically libertarian direction, you should be more careful about what you sign.
And as for your body, you had better start taking the sun to court, because it is by far the number one source of microwave radiation in the star system.
"These are physical radio waves, you are dumping them on my property and I can't do what I want with them?"
If you bought said property in the United States, no, you can't.
"Passively decrypting an RF signal that passes through one's body should be completely legal. (Assuming you don't use any copyrighted code to do so)"
But if it were possible for people (that don't work for the NSA) to passively decode these broadcasts, the solution wouldn't involve boxes that require a telephone connection to the provider you're stealing from, let alone smart cards.
"Both of your analogies involve actively transmitting and interfering with someone's phone or internet connection."
But both of those analogies involve something that touches the original poster's property.
You have a misunderstanding of your phone, in that case. You see, it's the phone that broadcasts the signal. In that case, It's Not OK for you to broadcast a signal that happens to activate my base station. (You received no permission from me to do so...)
I blame Canada and the bitch Anne Murray too!
Two Towers-Two Worlds.One seeks triumphs and freedom for man.The other deems man unworthy and wrecks them.
Or more precisely:
$/qtr/subscriber = $29*3 = $87/qtr/subscriber
$2,400,000/qtr
______________________= 27586.2068965517 subscribers
$87/qtr/subscriber
That just killed a project smart card controled robot. The question is why did the card allow its programing to read. A check sum of the internal is all that is need to tell if the card is good or bad.
I remember buying a directv box from Best Buy and having the saleskid offer me $100 card insurance because, "Your card can go anytime and Directv will charge you $100 for a replacement!" I should have asked why he's trying to sell me such a shoddy product from such an unethical company.
Funny how the media isn't cracking down on this. Oh that's right DirecTV is now owned by News Corp, you know Rupert Murdoch's empire including many media outlets including the infamously pro-corporate Fox News cable channel.
Would it be wrong to sniff all wireless packets to read someone's email, see what websites they visit, and find their passwords? Would it be wrong to read that risque email from your wife or listen to you having phone sex (cordless phone) with your mistress?
...every day, I'm more and more glad that I refuse to use credit cards or release personal information.
When are people going to learn, you've got to poison those databases before they're used against you (either by the government or by lawyers, or more usually, both).
Of course, that means I can't have stuff delivered to my residence, but hey, renting mailboxes under false names is cheap.
My grandfather knew Alice and Ray. Before they moved into the church, they lived in New York, where Ray was working as a draftsman for my grandfather in his architectural firm.
He _almost_ bought Alice, BTW.
-----
Kvetch is Yiddish for "throw an exception" --Dr. Ron Cytron
All of you are just hating cause you can't write good posts like me, ya I checked all you playa haters out, nothing but a bunch of +1's if lucky.
What about the DirectTV receiver itself? I could argue that anyone who bought anything that could receive their signal (including their equipment) is a pirate. After all, they cannot assume that I will always pay my subscription bill. What is the difference (in terms of importance to receive a signal) between the card and receiver? Nothing! They should also sue ALL of their customers. Then everybody would drop their service and they would obediently file bankruptcy. BTW, who owns the smart card technology? Why do they get exclusive use of it while the rest of us are pirates? Do I have to build and sell a new cell phone that uses smart cards to avoid persecution, or can I just think about building a new phone?
No man is an island... But I wouldn't mind having a bigger moat.
DirecTV 's tactics are very simple. They are trying to scare the common person into settling out. The reality is, DirecTV can't afford to lose a trial against an individual otherwise it would set a prescedence. Once the prescendence is set, it is now defense for everyone on their list. I haven't found a single case where an individual ended up going to court. Many have settled out, but none have completed a trial and that's no suprise. Dealers/Distributors are a whole different story. Each dealer/distrubtor's situation is uniuqe unlike the suit against the individuals for posessing programmers.
I can paste it into my address box in 5 mouse/keystrokes. So its an economy thing.
I sudscribed for the service and was told the only way to get service was with a one year "contract." So needing something to watch in the late of night when the only thing on broadcast is "Paid programming"; I signed up. Boy was I pissed when half the channels I pay DTV for are also "Paid Programming" (most of the night!) sold to the highest bidder. The SciFi being the one I realy wanted. (sad)
So: I propose that maybe a "class action" against DTV for selling MY "Paid Service" to these TV Spammers!
I'm now looking into ways to get out of this breech of contract with them. I don't want to give my "Hard Earned Freedom Dollars" to these "Mafia Style Corporations."
Signed: On pissed off American!
I don't want a pickle; I just want a Motor-Cycle! A four foot cop arrived with a five foot gun!
I can't get satelite, but if I could and I had a choice between a company that was actively prosecuting its consumers and my meerly incompetent cable co. I would have to pick the cable co. no matter how bad they were.
As from the article: '"I didn't know what to do, I was completely flabbergasted. So I sent the money in," says Sosa. "I have a livelihood, and I have a family, and there are a lot of things that I`d rather be than right." '
So, this guy, who had done NOTHING wrong, and could easily prove why he'd bought the device, just caved in... God the whole suing thing is making me sick... the US are the kings of it, but by no means alone... here in Australia we're heading down the same stupid, slippery slope... suiing for everything... and the suer keeps getting money because people cave in and pay 'because fighting it would be too expensive'
It's ridiculous that completely innocent people are starting to just give up and pay up for no good reason because of the way the legal system is perceived to be. (Rightly or wrongly)
I mean, why type in a password every feckin mornin wouln't it be so cool to have a smart card based login and access system, though biometrics are lookin sexier...
:)
Who would want to break a satelite box anyway, 500 channels of c***, I get enough c*** on my 4 channels I don't need or want any more
Actually this would be legal.
(Unfortunately) there are laws prohibiting cracking sat signals, but not for eavesdropping.
Nothing to see here; Move along.
Microsoft's own support forums show how to install and use smart card readers. How ironic that M$ might be helping 'pirates'.
l t. asp?url=/technet/prodtechnol/windows2000serv/howto /smrtcard.asp
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/defau
"Microsoft has made computing accessible to a population who would otherwise not be able to use computers" - B. Kernigha
DirectTV are also sending similar letters to people who are buying blank DTV cards on eBay.
A friend of mine is being asked to pay $3500 for buying some (3 or 4 over 1 year) HU cards.
They did NOT accuse him of having a card programmer.
He did not sell or give the cards to anyone else.
His lawyer friend is advising him to pay up.
Nothing to see here; Move along.
These are not rhetorical questions. I think an understanding of DirecTV's legal rights with this information might be important. Comparing what happens, what is legal, and what is ethical certainly could have an impact on how the tech community views issues such as this.
Where this gets funnier is that the Amex free readers that were distributed can indeed be hacked to be DirecTV smart card writers as well. Try a search on google for them.
Dunno about the target card readers, but I'm betting they can become writers too.
Dammit smacktard! Could you resize the pages down so that we can look at more than 1/16th of the page at once??
I.... love.... reading... only... one or.... two... words... at a... time.
The fact that you're posting a link to 9 images, each roughly 1MB in size on slashdot, means that you are either masochistic, or completely else oblivious to what you're doing. Just because IE6 scales down images to fit in your browser window, doesn't mean that your router won't be screaming in pain if 100,000 people all hit your page at once...
Sometimes the best solution to morale problems is just to fire all the unhappy people.
Both of your analogies are completely flawed and without merit. The reason is that in your analogies, a bi-directional communication is established, and the equipment that you are using is owned by another party. There is a difference between intercepting and decoding a radio transmission and hijacking an RF device by simple proximity to the device. For example, I can purchase a license to use commercial radio service between two mobile sales trailers which have opened to sell gyrocopter plans. Like the ones you see advertised in Popular Science. I transmit the information in FAX format between the trailers so that I only have to store the information at my office downtown which has more security. Lets say someone intercepts this info and builds a gyrocopter using my plans. They don't distribute the plans, they just build to my plans. They haven't broken any laws, especially if they didn't make a copy on paper and sell it to anyone. Information cannot be copyrighted, only the original words can be.
The same thing can be said for DirecTV. If I don't make copies of their works when I program a card, and the info on the card was created purely by reverse engineering the transmission format, I haven't broken copyright laws unless I then copy or resell the data I intercept. That is, until recently congress gave digital works more protection than analog works by passing the DMCA. This clearly violates constitutional equal protection guarantees and fair use provisions of US copyright laws, and as such, needs to be rewritten or struck.
They lose more money chasing these pirates than they lose from the piracy itself.
Whats the point of thousands of lawsuits
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Show me a cheaper smartcard reader than the ones sold by pirate TV dealers. I'll bet you find that the ones sold by Dish/DTV hacking dealers cost 1/2 the price of a normal computer security smart card reader, and they are more flexible. Even if the programmers are designed for hacking, they still have perfectly legimate uses, and I'd certainly have bought one to save $100 (over the price of a more "white collar unit) if I needed a smart card reader. FYI, I don't even own any DirecTV receivers, so don't think I'm trying to defend myself. I'm saying that even if the cards can be used for hacking DTV, there no more legal than a CDR because it can be used to copy a CD.
These are physical radio waves, you are dumping them on my property and I can't do what I want with them?
Absolutly. The company has no right to sue you for simply decoding the signals which are being sent to your house. If you were leeching cable, and physically damaged it, that would be a different matter. I don't know how the bypass system in question works, but as long as it doesn't represent you as someone else its not fraud. If you arn't SENDING any data, well its yours to recieve. The only problem is (and I don't know about this, I dont live in the US) might be illegality of technology to break encrypted signals. Is this illegal? Doesn't the DCMA make it illegal or something? The whole "This message has been ROT26 encrypted: you are currently breaking the law by viewing it". However, if that is true they can't be sued by DTV and instead should be prosecuted under federal law.
Logically I can see no reason why these lawsuits should hold up. But IANAL - perhaps there is something which protects big business. But you're right, IMHO. If it's broadcast to everyone, and I'm one of everyone, just try and stop me from decoding it, simply as a cryptographic exercise!
"But everyone should know everything." -markab
I wasn't aware that Huges Electronics was owned by General Motors. That's about as deep as deep pockets can get.
Their earnings announcement can be found here:
http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/030716/1215001152_1.htm
Here's an interesting excerpt:
Let us all shed a tear for DirectTV's lost revenue.
Take off every Sig. For great justice.
Both of your analogies are completely flawed and without merit. The reason is that in your analogies, a bi-directional communication is established
Nope... the parent poster said he is entitled to do anything he wants to any signal entering his house. If I apply that condition to what I am doing, then "anything I want" to do with that signal can include bi-directional communications using said signal.
In case of fire, do not use elevator. Use water!
I have been a customer for this company for more than 2 years now. But just out of protest against this lawsuit (and i told the customer representative this on the phone) i canceled my DirecTV service today.
I know, i'm only one customer, so not a big loss, but at least i can sleep tonight.
Thomas
The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck is the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -- Unknown
I haven't read every posting...but I haven't seen much clamouring for dropping DirecTV as a service! I personally think it sucks, but they have a monopoly in my building...so it's either them or rabbit ears. How about 100k /. readers drop service, that'll get some attention. Trust me, they're toast as soon as I move in 1 month.
>To be honest, I was surprised to learn that the dish systems use the same cards I had already purchased
d _stand ard_ISO7816.aspx
Here's the whole spec for ISO 7816
http://www.cardwerk.com/smartcards/smartcar
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
How much more proof do you need that corporate leaders are out to get you?
Revolution is the only answer.
This is my sig.
http://www.freedomfight.ca/forum/showthread.php?th readid=120
This page has some interesting information on one of the cases, apparently someone has a pretty good log of what happened.
Apparently between my friends and I, I'm the only one that knows about this and I work with a bunch of electrical engineers.
Perhaps maybe this time someone should neatly format a short paragraph describing what DirectTV is doing and options that customers have such as canceling their service in protest.
Given enough attention, this might be able to get the word out to the majority of the public that doesn't read slashdot or browse around for information all day since whatever DirectTV is doing right now sets dangerous presedence for other companies and organisations such as the RIAA and MPAA.
um... no... It is onlt a reader. If it was a writer, DTV would have sued them too.
Twenty years old. Heard it. Love it. Have it on my box.
:)
D0n7 d35krymn473 0n teh K1DD13z.
Sorry, are you too old to understand that?
Benjamin
How long can one get service for $3500? I figure at the insane rate of $100/month (several TV's) you could get almost 3 years worth of service from them.
So I can Reply to This, or I can Parent.
I found the meaning of life the other day, but I had write-only access.
Direct TV will now be selling smartcard readers and writers. For a limited time you can order yours for only $19.95, plus S+H. If you act now we will exempt you from all future law suits involving Smartcards. These devices are intended for legal purposes only of course. We can sell them at such a low cost because we didn't pay for them. Actually people paid us $3500 for us to take them.
The US Air Force is in the process of issueing everone of it's military members a 32K smart card as a ID card. We are using them to digitaly sign E-mail and access computer systems. So now everone has a smartcard reader on there desktop. WOW!! we must all be pirate thieves.
PS. I have been a paying for DishTV since I moved to the backwoods.
Science is the Real TRUTH!
Didn't the FCC rule in the 1920's that any signal that was Broadcast was fair game?
Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice doggie" until you can find a rock. Will Rogers
Slander is VERY difficult to prove in court. You not only have to prove that the statement is false (that's the easy part) you have to prove INTENT to damge one's character, a virtually impossible task. IANAL, that was told to me by a prosecuting attourney...so take it as you will.
A modern day witchhunt.
Especially on /. . I'm guessing someone came up with a "cynic AI" and is just spamming the same crap over and over, with words and situations changed.
-Libertarian secular transhumanist
How do DirectTV program their own cards? Where are the other satellite companies? They should be suing DirectTV for owning smart card programming equipment.
With this logic:
I own a knife, so I am a murderer. I even own many knives, so I am a mass murderer.
I own a CD burner, so I must be guilty of copyright infringement (no: theft of IP) on 2/3 of the MPAA catalog, and I will have to give them 99% of my earnings during my whole life.
So, as a criminal, I've got nothing else to lose, and I can go shoot their lawyers; they destroyed my life, so I'll shorten theirs. And the world may be a better place after that.
Hey, this is the thinking beside any desesperate terrorism (Palestinians, poor people in corrupted countries, and so on)!
I wish I could say I'm happy not to live in the US, but this insanity comes slowly into Europe too. I'm afraid getting rid of all lawyers would not be enough.
(PS: Message for you little CIA computer reading all the web searching for terrorists: no, I don't intend to kill anybody. Please don't file me as a terrorist for explaining how this insane system will create them. Thanks.)
Christophe (Don't hesitate to point out my spelling and grammar mistakes, I want to learn - Thanks).
ditto;
* 2003-07-17 10:06:36 Doing your prostate a favour (articles,humor) (rejected)
The trolls would have been worth reading too..
455fe10422ca29c4933f95052b792ab2
I have never owned a dish system. I have continuously had a cable TV connection in my current resident (close to 10 years), a townhouse oriented in a manner that would make it difficult to set up a dish.
I have been involved in Unix/Linux security systems for a number of years.
Hmmm, you sound like a perfect test case. They demand money and the device. You take them on for extortion.
My real comment is that I though we were all Innocent until proven Guilty? If the device in question is not illegal then how can someone be sued when they have done nothing wrong.
:)
Actually that's not true. You are presumed not guilty until proven guilty is closer to reality (even though it's still not quite it). If one were presumed innocent then there wouldn't be cause for suspicion in the first place. That phrase is nonsense if you ask any lawyer. It's nothing but a mere catch-phrase for the common folks.
As for the lawsuit, they can sue anyone they damn well please. Now winning the suit is another matter altogether. So no, being sued is not the same as being guilty.
Hope that clears up a couple of things.
eTrade SUCKS
Then I am well and truly fucked -- I own four sledgehammers. I wonder if I can get credit for the one my father bought before Kwikset became a company.
A friend of mine approched me with the problem (he bought one of these things) about 2 months ago. He asked me if there was a way I could get Linux running on one of these. If so He could prove legit use of this device. I have tried to no avail. anybody up for getting together on this project?
Also as a note. He also purchased a addon for his reciever as it seems he was told directv could remotly zap his card without it.
anybody know how this works?
Learn it. Know it. Be it.
Ya salty nut landlubber! Yarr, real pirates drink rum, arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Gee...my $49.95 purchase of Black's Law Dictionary wasn't a waste after all.... :-)
RIAA tactic?
They probably think if they can do it, so can we.
That had to be the most poetic summary I've ever read, and thanks for not dogging my post like all these other people did. Judging from your user ID I can see you've been here long enough to know not to be a jackass, these other people though... Sort of reminds me of the monty python holy grail skit.. Yah this has been done before but maybe it can educate the new batch of /.'ers replyin on this thread.
... Well, we did do the nose. .. Yes ... A bit. A bit. he has got a wart! ... What do you do with trolls? ... Because they're made of wood...? ... but can you not also make bridges out of stone? ... Bread! ...Apples! ... Uh, very small rocks! Cider! Gra- Gravy! Chimries! Mud! Churches! Churches! Lead! Lead! ... ... weighs.. the same.. as a duck ... he's made of wood.
FIRST VILLAGER: We have found a troll. May we burn him?
ALL VILLAGERS: Burn him! Burn him! Burn him! Burn him! Burn him!
BEDEVERE: How do you know he is a troll?
FIRST VILLAGER: he looks like one!
ALL VILLAGERS: Yeah! Yeah! Burn him! Yeah!
BEDEVERE: Bring him forward.
[They bring him forward - a handsome YOUNG MAN (TOQER) dressed up as a troll.]
troll: I'm not a troll. I'm not a troll.
BEDEVERE: Uh, but you are dressed as one.
troll: They dressed me up like this.
ALL VILLAGERS: We didn't, we didn't!
troll: And this isn't my nose, it's a false one.
[BEDEVERE takes his nose off.]
BEDEVERE: Well?
FIRST VILLAGER:
BEDEVERE: The nose?
FIRST VILLAGER: And the hat. But he is a troll.
ALL VILLAGERS: Yeah! We burn him! Yeah! Burn him!
BEDEVERE: Did you dress him up like this?
FIRST VILLAGER: No! No! No! No! No!... Yes
BEDEVERE: What makes you think he is a troll?
SECOND VILLAGER: Well, he turned me into a newt!
BEDEVERE: [after a pause] A newt?
[Othims stare and look at SECOND VILLAGER, who is plainly a human, not a newt.]
SECOND VILLAGER: [Notices the stares. After a pause:] I got better.
ALL VILLAGERS: Burn him anyway! Burn him! Burn him! Burn him!
BEDEVERE: Quiet! Quiet! Thime are ways of telling whethim he is a troll.
[ARTHUR and PATSY ride up at this point and watch what follows with interest]
ALL VILLAGERS: Are thime? Thime are? What are they? Tell us! Do they hurt?
BEDEVERE: Tell me
ALL VILLAGERS: Burn them! Burn them! Burn them up!
BEDEVERE: And what do you burn apart from trolls?
FIRST VILLAGER: More trolls!
SECOND VILLAGER: Sh!
THIRD VILLAGER: Wood!
BEDEVERE: So why do trolls burn?
FOURTH VILLAGER: [pianissimo]
BEDEVERE: Good.
[PEASANTS stir uneasily then come round to this conclusion.]
ALL VILLAGERS: Oh! Oh yeah!
BEDEVERE: So. How do we tell whethim he is made of wood?
FIRST VILLAGER: Build a bridge out of him!
BEDEVERE: Ah
ALL VILLAGERS: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Uhh...
BEDEVERE: Uh, does wood sink in water?
ALL VILLAGERS: No! No! No! It floats! It floats! Throw him into the pond! The pond!
BEDEVERE: What also floats in water?
ALL VILLAGERS:
ARTHUR: A duck!
[They all turn and look at ARTHUR. BEDEVERE looks up very impressed.]
BEDEVERE: Exactly. So... logically
FIRST VILLAGER: [beginning to pick up the thread] If... he
BEDEVERE: And thimefore?
ALL VILLAGERS: A troll! A troll! A troll!
The US Air Force is in the process of issueing everone of it's military members a 32K smart card as a ID card. We are using them to digitaly sign E-mail and access computer systems. So now everone has a smartcard reader on there desktop. WOW!! we must all be pirate thieves. :P
No, we have readers, not writers... and everyone in my shop except for me has one.
But I have to admit, calling them "Common Access Cards" leaves a LOT of jokes open for "Let me see your CAC!!!"...
Owner sues every knife purchaser in the country.
FSF, ACLU, Congress, get on the damn ball.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
You can't hand it over, so you get sued for something that you don't have?
Why oh why did I get an IT degree rather than going to law school? It's a license to print money.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Is there not a system that can financialy help these people so they can at least take there case to court?
Saying Apple is better than MS is like saying Botulism is better than rabies.
Can you cite that? I'm not saying you're wrong, I've just never heard of anything like that.
I'm quite right. It is set forth in the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, Rule 26 ("sue or be sued"), an equal opportunity monstrosity.
And it seems wrong.
You have made very clear how much you don't like it. That doesn't make it right or wrong, however. It certainly doesn't make it illegal.
If this is the case, why doesn't the RIAA use this tactic?
I presume they decided it was unhelpful for them to provide anyone with a mailing list of all the defendants, and costly for them to seek class action proceedings.
Being wrong within an allegation doesn't make it objectively baseless, that is a sham.
It does make it objectiveley baseless and a sham if the allegation is made without any due diligence in determining whether the allegation is correct.
If you say so. I'm here to tell you that what you are stating wouldn't likely make the cut in the United States to avoid dismissal on pleadings or summary judgment dismissal of a barratry/abuse of process action. f you are right, the sham defendants may have a rule 11 claim, and will ream DirectTV in the end. If you are wrong, well, time will tell. Our gainsaying each other in this thread won't prove the point -- I was simply trying to show you the elements of barratry, and to indicate that what you describe probably isn't it.
We are a nation grounded in the right to petition, which includes that right to sue -- so long as the SOLE reason isn't to harm people -- even if the principal and guiding reason is to do so.
How can you actually believe that? [the elements of objectively baseless]
You confuse my statement about what is the law with a statement of my beliefs. However, to some extent, they conform:
I believe deeply in our constitution, and am informed by applicable case law. Check out the Noerr Pennington doctrine in Antitrust for an example of how this works in practice.
I agree that we have the right to sue people that harm us. But I don't think it is written anywhere that we have the right to sue anyone that we think may have harmed us or could have harmed us had they wanted to without having some significant evidence that suggests someone actually DID harm us.
Substitute free speech for "right to sue people," and you may begin to see my problem with your qualifications. Harm is in the eyes of the person sued. We cannot simultaneously protect a right to petition and place heavy burdens on a plaintiff to "be right in fact" or to make some heavy threshold of "due dilligence." Against the person who sues just to harm and without any probable cause, there are causes of action. However, objective baselessness of the lawsuit or threat of it is a heavy, constitutionally required, threshold designed to preserve our rights -- and it is a significant burden for the prevailing defendant to overcome.
I thought it was a travesty for the Nazis to march in Skokie. But I think there is little doubt in my mind that they had a right (no moral right, but a constitutional right) to do so. Likewise, I can't preserve your right to petition government and at the same time complain about not being able to limit lawsuits I don't like.
No, a million is 1,000,000 in both the UK and the US. The difference is in what the definition of a billion is - in the US, it is a thousand million, in the UK it is strictly a million million, but the US sense is increasingly used.
On second thoughts, you probably won't touch the stuff - don't want them tampering with your precious bodily fluids, do you?
I received a letter. I ignored it. I received the second letter and a form lawsuit complaint with my name filled in. I wrote a response letter. Now we will see what they do, but I can tell you their verbal position was "Pay or we will sue you."
I did quite a bit of reading and luckily, there are quite a few victories against DTV now. I learned the following points which are very important.
1) DTV is suing based only on the purchase of a smart card programmer.
2) DTV never does any additional research to determine whether the named defendant could or is stealing the satellite signal.
3) DTV verbally assures you that purchase and/or possession is enough proof.
4) Every judge so far has disagreed and ruled in favor of the defendant who fights the lawsuit.
5) DTV wins a lot of default judgments because defendants ignore the lawsuit.
6) DTV includes a claim that it can sue you under a federal criminal law. Judges have ruled every time that this is not true and dismiss this claim.
The fact is, DTV is losing in every single case where someone fights it. Why? Because they only have the purchase records for a smart card programmer. This is not enough legally.
As everyone has already said, DTV is setting the settlement amount so that people will settle instead of pay more to an attorney. I personally dispute this conclusion, as many experienced attorneys can now make this go away for a lot less than $3,500.
And lest you think I am just one of those guilty people who wants to fight, I will add a little fact to the details. I live in Europe. That's right. If DTV sues me, they have a little problem proving that I stole their signal because it is completely IMPOSSIBLE! But they have another little problem. Rule 11 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure will let me get quite some money if they sue me with such a frivolous lawsuit. Ya see, DTV doesn't know something else about me. I'm a pissed off attorney right now.
The Supreme Court in Canada agrees with the previous poster. Whatever gets beamed into my house, I can legally decode. Bonus. I'm sure this is one reason our satellite provider is rolling the codes once an hour now.
My username does not make me Apathetic. It's irony, get it?
I used to suscribe to Telocity DSL, which was bought out by DTV. I canceled my DSL with them and went with a local Bell when I moved. Since then I've been getting tons of phone calls from DTV trying to sell me their satelite service. My phone numbers are now on the don't call list and if they DO ever call me again, I'm gona sue THEM! I'd rather have cable then use their satelite TV service (or go with DISH network instead). DTV=SCO=M$=GWB
Their quarterly revenue is $2.4 Billion, not million.
https://signin.directv.com/DTVAPP/glb/Confirm_Feed back.jsp
Tell them what you think. See if they like being slashdotted.
Speak for yourself.
at a gay pride parade.
Like it's been stated in many posts, people use these smart card devices for legit. reasons. What about the aspiring robotics designer trying to pioneer a new smart robot that changes its configuration based on what card is input (If someone uses that idea, I want credit dammit), and they happen to also be a DTV customer?
There are many legal uses for smart cards that have nothing to do with DirecTV. I actually used to be a Dish network subscriber, and even though the picture was nice, it was a LOT more money in the end (boxes for the 6 TV's in my house, special LNB for all those boxes, blah blah), the quality was only marginally better than our cable system (and that's not saying much). And if it rained/snowed/got cloudy/the cat walked by the TV, out goes the signal.
My advice to everyone who has DTV, dump it. Read a book, its more stimulating. Once you've tried both cable and satellite, you quickly find out the benefits of satellite TV are few.
(Note to DirecTV big-wigs: I'm not, never have been, and will NEVER be a subscriber. I never have bought a smart card reader, and I don't even download MP3's or use Kazaa. Piss off.)
News Flash - DirecTV has been purchased by the IRS. The company slogan has been changed to "Guilty Until Proven Innocent." All DirecTV subscribers will now be required to complete an 86-page form every April 15 to deny piracy. More at 11.
Well... this model would have probably helped them more than the standard one. Pooling the settlement money that way and making the judge disappear would have sent a pretty strong message...
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
I have tryed to search for the EEF to no avail. Would someone kindly post a link for me? Thanks. I also found the lawyer that was mentioned in one of the posts, however he is not certified to be a lawyer in the state which i live. Thank you for the info though. I really didn't expect anyone to post to this, i appreciate the input you all have given, and look forward to future posts and any advice that anyone may have. My belief in good people is beginning coming back. Thanks.
Insight is knowing that [generally] anyone with $$$, or principles wouldn't be buying such a device anyway. Seeing as how it will require 1 or both of those qualities to fight the case, DTV has a safe bet not many will.
Pirate Access Devices == Portholes... COMEDY GOLD!
Keep in mind they are getting the purchasers names from the places they have raided, ie "pirate satellite operation stores" -- so they are going after Johny Sizpax with a card-programmer, not Mr. Unix X.509 Certificate Guru. I think if you had purchased one from a more "legitimate" source (which one would expect of a legitmate user) that you won't find a letter in your mailbox from DirecTV.
Yes you are correct, defending a baseless suit is time consuming and very expensive. That is why the federal rules of civil procedure provide rule 11, for just this kind of situation. If a lawyer files suit on behalf of a client that he knows does not have a case, he can be sanctioned and the plaintiff can be forced to compensate the defendant for their time and $$ spent. I too hope that directv gets taken to task for this, and i'm 2/3 of the way to being a lawyer!
danoatvulaw
3L Villanova Law
--Terry Pratchett's Discworld books, highly recommended. IMHO he's a bit reminiscent of Douglas Adams, but Pratchett is a better writer.
Actually in the US there is a law: ECPA
hehe.. i wonder how much the **AA has spent on their quest to make everyone criminals.
iF yOu WAnT to C YOUr iP agaIn gAThEr tWO MilLIon dOLLArS IN Non - cONsEcuTivE TweNtY's AnD AWaiT FuRThER iNstrUctIoN
It's kind of interesting to think how much of this shit has started since GWB started running the economy into the ground like an out of control airliner..
iF yOu WAnT to C YOUr iP agaIn gAThEr tWO MilLIon dOLLArS IN Non - cONsEcuTivE TweNtY's AnD AWaiT FuRThER iNstrUctIoN
And your credit card is falsely in that list? And you paid you're bill falsely?
I think it is crazy that they request that much money. They should secure their services better if they do not want it stolen. I am not saying that people should not be penelized, but i think they are going beyond what is necessary.
How much is a DTV satellite? What if the wrong person gets sued by DirecTV? A person that has the ability to change a DTV satellite trajectory and send the bird back to earth in a ball of melting metal? Those hacker guys are dangerous and DTV should be careful. What about the organized group that can build a guidance system into an [inexpensive] rocket to bounce off one of the orbiting birds? You hackers are too dangerous for the system! I can't believe DirecTV would challenge your ability. I used to have a DTV dish and it was great. I paid for ever channel I got. After hearing of these lawsuits, I don't think I'd ever get one again. After all, the pirate cards go into a DTV box, right?! Maybe in the future I could get sued just for having the box.
I noticed today that I am on your freaks list. When did that happen? What brought about the decision? Or maybe I should ask, what did I say?
testing out my trending skills