Slashdot Mirror
Is it Wrong to Accept an Employment Counter-Offer?
An Anonymous Coward asks: "I was happily working away at a low-paying but otherwise good job I'd had for several months, after taking a huge pay cut when the dot.bomb bubble burst. Then a recruiter contacted me with a very nice potential position - I interviewed and received an offer with a 50% increase in pay, everything else nearly the same. When I received the offer and decided I was interested, I broke the news to my current employer - to my surprise they extended a counter-offer with a matching salary, thereby eliminating my only reason for considering the other job. However, I talked to some friends and checked the web for ideas and realized that there are a *lot* of ppl out there who believe you should never accept a counter-offer. They make some good points, and there are a lot of those pages - but on the web popularity breeds increased popularity, in a self-feeding cycle, so I'm wondering if the numbers are skewed unrealistically. Is it really that rare to do well by accepting a counter-offer? Do Slashdot readers have experience with counter-offers from present employers, positive or negative?"
I did that once... I stayed for about 3 more weeks and then went right out the door...
This is my sig. Its pathetic.
If you like where you're at stay. If not leave. Ignore all the extranious bs and make an unclouded decision.
The linked 10 reasons are all bullshit. If the company likes you enough to match the offer, and you are otherwise happy where you are, take it. All you've shown your company is that you have goals, too.
Most employers like that.
--
You sure got a purty mouth...
If they gave a damn about you, why didn't they pay you more before? Will you need to get a new job offer every time you want a raise?
-- Will program for bandwidth
Other than being an owned bitch now, I don't see anything wrong with accepting a counteroffer. But the question is: Can you sleep at night, knowing that you've whored yourself to the highest bidder?
Perfectly acceptable and normal employment practice. If you have solid professional relationship with your current management then you shouldn't worry about:
1) being considered a greedy troublemaker
2) why you weren't being properly compensated already.
Since salaries and duties seem to match, you have the luxury of considering other factors, like the impact on your commute, if any.
Good luck,
B2
words from a friend of mine .."you are your own man"...
Look at it this way...you look out for yourself...if a company decided to lay you off..they will...if a company decides to pay you more...why not? If you really enjoy your current working environment and they are willing to pay you more...go for it...who knows what you will expect at the other place. In the end, like I said, you have to look out for yourself.
Do you really want to be working for a company that you have threaten to leave before you can get a pay raise?
Just something to think about....
David
I have had only one joub that offered me a counter offer, which I took. The Company went bancrupt 2 months later and I was out of a job.
This probably wont happen to you, but you have to ask yourself why your last pay rise wasn't 50% if the you company is prepared to offer you this now.
Wouldn't it be nice if schools got all the money they wanted and the army had to hold jumble sales for guns
My brother has done this twice and continued to work at the same company. They seemed to be able to recognize that he was underpaid and made adjustments.
He's continued to become more vital to their daily operations and is considered one of their best techs.
The only problem I see is that your current employer would then always wonder if you were looking for a new job. Not that it is a matter of trust, but I do think it would change their perception, and they might not see you as part of the team anymore. That may not be right, but we're talking human perceptions not right or wrong. Ultimately, what is your gut feeling, do you think your current employer would feel jaded, would the environment degrade making it an uneasy and unpleasant place to work. If not, then staying would be fine. That's the question you have to answer, as I see it
-Master Switch, one more element in the machine
...jump on whatever you can get. At least with the counter-offer you know what to expect. Jumping ship for another company, you run the risk of entering a completely different corporate culture than what you are used to at your current job.
That's also a damn fine vote of confidence from your boss. I'd celebrate this weekend if I were you.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Accept it if you like the job.
If the does company get silly on you, you now know your skills are worth something somewhere else.
Ah, back when a monkey could become a well-paid programmer... Those were the days.
If you feel the company really wants you to stay and isn't simply keeping you around to finish the current project, then I'd say stay.
The points on that page are very good, but it all really boils down to your relationship with your employer. If you feel like part of the team and you feel comfortable with the people you work with, stay. If you think this is just a ploy to give you your raise early and give you nothing when evaluations come around, then leave.
I have been pwned because my
In the current economy with staff cutbacks and furloughs becoming widespread, I would be extremely hesitant about accepting a counter-offer. If a company is offering you, as a new hire, what you want and you believe them to be stable, go for it. The amount of badwill generated in your current situation by asking for and accepting a counter-offer is too high a premium to pay.
Don't accept it. Unless they are going to give you a bonified legal employment contract.... why...
Because otherwise you will be the first on their list when they are looking to get rid on someone to cut costs. You are not only disloyal ( not that companies are ever loyal to you ) but you are probably making more than others doing the same work.
Trust me, it's a bad game to play unless you are willing to accept that your employer will always be wondering if you are going to jumo ship again.
...You want to take what you can get. As a veteran of several of these situations, I've always taken counter-offers when possible. I know Linux better (esp. Slickware) than anyone I've met, so I can afford to ask for more money. The recession is making it difficult to find work, so accept the counter-offer. HTH.
On whether you really like the company you work for or not. If you think they'll screw you when the time comes for cuts or another raise in the future, then you should move on. If you dig the place you work for now, then take the money. Most of the arguments on that website are BS anyway - such as "you can be bought"... Well no $hit sherlock... This is why you work, to make money. And besides, this isn't 20 or 30 years in the past where companies are actually loyal to you, I say go for the best deal!
I've never accepted one before, simply because it's a temporary solution. The company was happy paying you less, and all of sudden you get more and they can pay you ?. I guess it depends on the situation, but if you've worked your ass off, and management didn't see a need to give you a raise until you threatened to leave em, it's just a sign that they'll keep you on temporarily until they find someone to replace you. Unless you're in Job nirvana(which cannot exist), I would move to the new place. Sure there are risks when you change jobs, but you have to see your situation and take the plunge.
Never forget that these companies, will fire you even if you think the job is great and the people are great, they will fire you or.. rightsize you, if money is tight. They are in it for survival, and so are you.
I have to say this, but your loyalty should be to yourself and your family, not to anonymous shareholders or board of directors that never have lunch with you.
Take pride in your work, do it well, but do it for yourself, not the company.
Think about it... you told your employer that you were going to leave.
The counter offer you to keep your position filled.
They now can search for your replacement, because they know you are no longer a loyal employee.
They find a replacement and fire you because you are not a loyal employee.
You now have no offer...
just my 10cents.
Besides, if the companuy you are so in love with was off by 50% in salary, then they were screwing you anyway...
It is appropriate to point out to your employer
that you potentially could be making more
somewhere else, but you should do this before
you accept another offer, IMO.
If your employer says no way, then resign and
stick to it. If you accept a new offer, then
resign, and then change your mind due to a
counter-offer, you are breaking your word.
If the employer cares about you, kindly
pointing out that you can make significantly
more elsewhere is all it takes. If your
current employer waits until they get a true
resignation to do something about it, your
employer is the one with the problem.
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. A good employer will do whatever it takes, within reasonable bounds, to hold onto good employees. You should accept that as a complement and stick with your current job if you are happy with it. Its risky changing jobs...you might end up with a lousy manager or the company culture may stink.
what's a ppl?
this sig limit is too small to put anything good h
I look at it this way: Your current employer was exploiting you by paying you 1/2 of what you are worth. They are only paying you what you are worth because you were going to leave. To me this is deceitful.
Maybe you could ask them why they weren't paying you what you were actually worth. If they can't give you a satisfactory answer that you are comfortable with, leave. If you can live with their answer, maybe you stay.
I had a friend who, right before his annual review, told his supervisor that when it came to salary increase, the starting point should be the ammount of money they would offer if he told them he was leaving. It worked.
i had a job paying 10 bucks a hour, it was a stable and long term source of income, and was offered a federal job doing the same thing for almost twice the pay (in the construction industry), but i know this job offer would not last (maybe 6 to 12 months) so i did not take it, what would you rather do, make big bucks for a short time or make medium sized bucks for a long long long time...
If nothing else, accepting the counter offer will cause the comapny that initially tried to recruit you to concievably make a similar offer to someone else [perhaps several others, if they each accept a corresponding counter offer from their own current employers, until finally one of them is not actually worth that much to their old company, and they will transfer their employment to someone who is willing to pay what it is worth.
---
the pen is mightier than the sword, the sword is mightier than the court, the court is mightier than the pen.
Your company should have been paying you based on your performance before.
The only possible danger that I can think of is if you have paranoid bosses. They may decide that if you've gone looking once, you'll go looking again, and try to replace you with someone they think might be more loyal. Don't laugh, it's happened to me once.
Were I in your place I'd go with my gut instincts. But always remember that you know what your current job is like. How sure can you be about a new place?
AMCGLTD.COM. Where cats, science fictio
Don't listen to the "they should have valued you more before.." BS. If the company is BROKE then obviously they would like to pay you as little as possible. They must need you, but couldn't afford to voluntarily give you a raise. But now they know you want more money, and that's fine. Take it and stay. Who says the new company won't bust soon?
I accepted a counter-offer from my current company three years ago when I had an opportunity to take a lucrative contracting position elsewhere. I told my boss that I had no desire to leave the company, but that I have a responsibility to my family to be the best provider for them that I can be. He accepted that explanation, tendered a counter-offer, and I chose to stay. I have survived two layoffs since.
Thank you for observing all safety precautions.
If a company really wanted you to stay, and thought you were worth 50% more than they are paying you, why didn't they pay you 50% more to begin with and prevent you from looking. They were mistreating you, if they were willing to pay you 50% more, and didn't until you quit. They will only do it again.
If the new offer was 1% more, and they then went 2% more, I could accept that, you might gain that much more value between reviews, (but at review time your raise should be less...). Frankly they don't think you are worth 50% more, they just want a few months to train your replacement.
Dogs are loyal. People work for money and job satisfaction. If they are willing to pay your more than they are, then they didn't try their best to satisfy you, and you should assume they will not.
A man of his word will not back out of an agreement once made for money. It looks like you consider money more than your word, and that is bad. Once you quit, you are out. They can hire you again in a month if you don't like to new place, but you owe the new place your honest word.
I think it depends on what kind of relationship you have with your current boss. If you can talk openly about wanting to leave, and there's no bullshit politics about loyalty, etc. then you should stay.
If there are going to be problems generated by the fact that you thought about leaving, then don't stay.
I know I could tell my boss "hey, this sucks, I want out." and he would understand, and we could talk about it, but I've had jobs that the fact that I even THOUGHT about leaving would cause problems.
The bigger the company, the easier it is to stay I think, too. Since there's generally more of a personal stake for managers, and people feel closer to the company.
That's my take on it. It's all about how it will affect your boss's relationship with you.
I would *never* accept a counter-offer. When you get one you have to ask "How long have I deserved the extra money?" It's like an employer admitting they've been cheating you by not paying you what you are worth. Perhaps if they would give you all of the appropriate back pay ....
just read this report suppLIEd buy the Institute de FUDgeville. IT .coNTains ALL the answerves any hopeful wannabe could hope for, including how to become an apologist for payper lisense hostage ransom schems.
Do you think you will retain it from your boss/co-workers?
And do you have enough of it towards your boss to give your boss the chance to retain you?
Seems only fair to give the person who hired you the chance to counter in good faith. By that I mean accept the counter and evaluate it honorably, don't give lip service about it. If it is a good offer be prepared to take it.
If you chick found another guy, and then you counter offered her, and she accepted, you know that she has been looking, and will continue to look untill she finds someone that you cant compeate with!
I think that I'd go with the first offer, just for a change of pace. I really like moving around, because I get bored if I'm in one place too long. Luckily, the job that I have now, I started as technical support, and then they moved me to assistant network administrator, so I haven't gotten bored yet. or maybe I'm just weird....
Check out my sysadmin blog!
Although some of the ten points for not accepting a counter are true you have to remember that you are dealing with a recruitment agency that is going to get 10% or more of your new salary if you move.
Of course they want you to move.
You probably could/should've demanded more before (though that's generally a no-no unless you threaten to go elsewhere) but I don't see why not to take the deal if you're happy with your job. While the other job "looks" the same, it likely isn't. Things that can make working miserable usually aren't seen until they are busy making you miserable.
So will it all happen again if you go for the counter-offer? I say it will. While you lose the comfort of your current job by taking on the new one, you also gain experience.
Chances are, if your boss is offering a counter-offer, he still likes you and will give you a good reference if needed in the future. I'd fear that he would re-cut your salary and all around treat you like crap if you took it though. He's probably just afraid that all the little things will fall apart after you leave, but that happens when *anyone* leaves a job. If he cut it before, there's a good chance he'll cut it again. I say go for the other employment, mix up your life a bit.
If a and b in c, and a can create b, and a can create a, and b can create b, and b cannot create a, then a created c.
You should have tried to get a raise first. That would have cleared a lot of things up. But that said, you didn't, so...
If you are an important asset to the company that can't be easily replaced, you like your job, and your company trusts you, you might be able to get away with staying. If not you should be very hesitant.
The problem is that you've already signalled to your company that you are thinking about leaving. If you're going to stay, you should assure them that money was the only problem, you made a mistake by not talking to them first, and you won't repeat that mistake in the future. Otherwise expect that they are going to start looking for your replacement immediately, and as soon as they find her that 50% increase will be meaningless.
Don't listen to anyone who tells you definitively one way or another what to do. Only you know your specific situation, and how trustworthy your boss is.
Use of gnome has been known to cause ANAL INFECTIONS!
Use KDE! The best linux desktop thats NOT GAY!
Obviously if they screwed you once by giving you a 50% pay cut they will do it again. If you take the new job things have the potential to get better. By staying where you are things can only get worse.
You've just proved your disloyalty. That disloyalty will mean that the next time things get rough, management will have no qualms about letting bad things happen to you first, instead of their other loyal employees. It will also be taken into consideration when they consider things like raises, promotions, and such.
Accepting a counteroffer shows that not only are you disloyal, but greedy as well, since they were able to get you back just by handing you more money.
In the long term, it can amount to career suicide. You may not notice it at first, but four years from now, when you finally notice the career stagnation, you'll know where to point the blame: right on yourself.
In some of the smaller tech sub-specialties, or a somewhat confined geographic market "everyone knows everyone". That means, unless you become a burger-flipper, your job decisions will dog you for years, if not decades. Even despite the size of a specialty, you'd be surprised when re-encounter people. The guy you dis'ed last month might be a future hiring manager, customer, vendor, etc. I've seen this countless times. So it always advised to act with the maximum of poise, despite the urge to be negative.
I think it is reasonable to except a counter offer. The fact that your current company is willing to counter does tell you something about how important they think you are for there business.
Basically, you are in a really good possition now, you can choose any path you wish. So evaluate both companies. Look at the people you will be working with, the stability of the company, all those things I am sure you are considering anyway, and pick which one seams best for you. In fact, you should have a smile on your face, because in an economy where many can't find a job, you have two!
Your current employer may be simply up the creek with you gone. They might be planning to replace you at their convienience at a later time. Since they need you up until then, they might just offer you an equivalent salary.
My advice: this is a great time to visit a labor lawyer and write up a termination contract. Just put something down about your termination on a "non-performance" basis. This way, if they decide to fire you without documentation of poor performance, then you will have a termination clause (just ask for like 6 months of pay or something like that).
There would be no reason for your current employer not to sign the contract since they are supposedly matching the offer based on your performance. It guarantees them that you will perform as well in the future and it guarantees you that your job won't disappear without a hefty severance.
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
I think that list is a bunch of crap. Companies don't just pay what they think you are worth, they pay what they think will keep you working for them up until the point they think you aren't worth the money you want.
In otherwords if you accepted the job for $40k and they know you are worth $100k, most companies aren't going to walk over and say "you know, you are underpaid, here's $60k a year more." No, they will say "great job, here's a $5k a year raise!
But when it comes down to you demanding more, or telling them you are leaving they will pay you what they need to in order to keep you.
Too many people look at employment as a personal relationship, but it is much better for everyone to remember that it is a bussiness relationship for both the employee and employer.
Ok, they do have a few good points. However:
Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
So what? Why are you working unless it's to make money? I have no problem with being bought.
All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed
I know this isn't always true. Pay can certainly be given completely arbitrarily without following guidelines.
[From the article:]
* Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
Well, hey, with rock-solid information like that to go on, I'd be a fool to accept a counteroffer.
After all, if you can't accept vague, unsubstatiated, unaccountable claims on the Internet as gospel, you just can't trust anyone.
--saint
If, however, you work for a politically charged, highly structured company, then you're begging to become a corporate pariah. Someone in the chain of command will find out you're "holding them up for more money" and will do one of three things: 1) make your salary requirements public domain, 2) demand that you take on twice the responsibilities you previously had, or 3) begin a festering passive-aggressive campaign to make your life thoroughly miserable.
Personally, you're selling your time and abilities for a price, and if you aren't looking to maximize your take-home $, then you're probably not getting enough out of your job and capitalism on the whole.
Once you're throgh that looking-glass, your employer will never really trust you again. They may simply be extending you that offer to keep you on long enough to find a replacement for your position at a lower price.
In any case, they'll always be looking over their shoulder at you, expecting you to find new and exciting ways to ratchet up your salary. Not a good place to be.
Good Luck!
Just dont' work for this guy:
tcd004
The danger in accepting a counter-offer that's purely compensation-based is that the current employer may feel that they've been "extorted" into it, thus creating a feeling of resentment on their part. Also your "company loyalty" has now been called into question.
I've only once even *entertained* the idea of considering a counter-offer. And in that instance I did accept it. But the reason for the impending job move was *not* financial at all. The current job had not been offering me the kind of job-growth opportunities I wanted. Financially: it was about even-up. My current employer understood completely. Understood so well, in fact, that they decided that giving me that opportunity would aid their own business growth. So the next day (completely unexpectedly, btw) they made me a counter-offer I couldn't refuse.
If it had been purely a financial thing, I would've never considered it. In fact: since I went from hourly to salaried, I actually took a pay *cut*.
If you like your current job, then take the counter offer and stay.
As for companies, I'm not sure it's a good idea for them to make counter offers. It can cause some employees to go on interviews just to get pay increases. In other cases, the company does make a counter offer, the employee takes it, but ends up leaving withing 6 months anyway. Now maybe in that 6 months, you pumped the employee for the critical information that he/she had and can now let them go.
Brought to you by Team SPAM! where we believe: "Information in the noise!"
I see nothing wrong whatever with accepting a counter offer. After all, it's not all that uncommon for people to start a new job, and then find for various reasons they don't like the job/working environemnt/management style, or whatever and leaving soon anyway.
Why expose yourself, and your potential new employer to that risk if you like your current job? It's a streightforward case of prefering to be loyal to your current employer, when there's no longer any good case to leave.
Simon Hibbs
It's called trying to live as well as possible while staying happy. VidalSasoon, Whore.
Most of my point is in the subject line. If an employer is willing to pay me more to stay with the company, it tells me that I'm not currently being paid what I'm worth to the company. It does not mean that I have unreasonable expectations; if that were the case, the company simply wouldn't make a counter-offer, and let me go work for the other company.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
I never liked the idea of counteroffers much, because the whole concept is that you have to pretty much threaton to quit before your employer will give you a raise. That doesn't set up a good social dynamic at your job, either. Your employer will remember that you're not as "loyal" as the other employees, and if there's ever a round of layoffs, you'll have two strikes against you: you'll cost the company more to keep around, and they'll percieve you as being "disloyal".
There is another good article about counteroffers here. You may also wish to read this article about how to resign from a job.
Good luck!
I did that about a year ago, and I am still stuck in the same job. It was a suck job before, but it is even worse now. I'm kept away from doing any of the interesting projects because I'm seen as a flight risk.
Are you at your currently employer because you like the job?
The danger of the counter-offer is "lost loyalty". Your current company may look at you differently. However, I think that most companies no longer care how loyal you are to them as evidenced by the staggering amount of layoffs in the last few years.
I did have a friend accept a counter-offer. He stayed at the job for about 18 months before he left for another job.
The point is that maybe there is something you're aren't happy with at you current company.
But there's nothing wrong with the answer being "Yes"
Execs are always going to the board with schemes to get more company dollars in their pockets. Guaranteed bonuses, stock options and the like. Why should they have all the fun?
That reminds me, I have to renew my Monster resume...
Only if your bosses really forgot how low you'd been paid
previous months.
Seriously, it happens. Big bosses can forget
how they are paying the particular man in their kingdom...
People seem to be saying that you shouldn't stay since the company didn't give you the pay in the first place. In my experience, if you tell your management (as part of the agreement to stay) that you expect career / salary advancement if you stay, they'll give it to you.
They've shown they want to keep you, you just need to tell them what it will take (over time, not just right now) to keep you.
Good luck!
Most of the reasons that were linked to this story were highly conditional - yes, your employer might decide to try to replace you or you might be the first person laid off - then again, they might really value you and want to keep you.
Since you're the only person who really knows what your workplace is like, you're the only one who can really judge whether you'll still be happy if you stay there - and what you're giving up by leaving. If the money is the only issue, you might think about staying. You've already established yourself there, it's a known quantity. Leaving could be a mistake, staying could be a mistake. But it's impossible to say since there are too many variables to post in an "ask Slashdot."
I've accepted counteroffers before, and I've turned them down before too.I turned down more money to stay at a job where I wasn't appreciated and the money wasn't the real issue in the first place. I've accepted a counteroffer when I liked my original employer, but was approached with an offer that wasn't solicited.
Hell, I'd wager that a good 25% to 50% of the people reading this are just wishing they could find a good job right now... never mind choosing between two decent salaries...
When you accept a counter-offer of your current employer, it's like having a new position in the
same company. They will pay you more, but they
will expect more from you. Sometimes it's bad,
because you have to do all the stuff you always do plus a lot more. Sometimes is good, because you can learn a lot more, expose those abilities you have and nobody else notice, in short, it's a opportunity to build a new carrer path and become a better professional in the same company. That's my opinion.
Make sure you know your direct manager well before accepting the raise. You'd also do well to get input from other long-term employees (if any) about your company's psychology and upper management's view on such things.
The company I'm at now, if a counter-offer were made, would become pretty hostile if I were to accept and stay. I'd be treated as a beggar.
One of the corporations I worked at previously, gave a counter when I was ready to leave. I stayed, with a nearly 33% raise. My immediate manager was really pissed off for a while, but upper management saw it as a good thing, and my relationship with the company didn't suffer, and I subsequently moved up quickly through the positions.
Bottom line: If your company isn't going to hold a grudge, it's the path of least resistance to stay and accept.
But take a quick look around, and ask yourself if you were seeking new employment solely for a pay increase, or are there other reasons you wanted to leave.
Where I work, my boss and his boss can't change "company" policy.
In a recent promotion attempt, they had problems getting the HR department to give the promotion they wanted to give me. (said there was no comparable positions, blah blah blah).
My boss told me that the only way I could get it was to get an offer from somewhere else. YES, he encouraged me to do this.
I did, and guess what, HR backed down and they even matched.
They also assume an antagonistic relationship between the boss and the employee, which is not necessarily the case.
By the same logic, if you're underpaid you should never ask for a raise because it tells your employer that you're unhappy, and the employer will "immediately start seeking your replacement." (Recruiting is free, didn't you know?)
... or stay, depending on your inclination. =)
Seriously, though, if the job is nice and the people there finally realize your worth and give you a nicer salary, why leave?
Better the devil you know than the four devils you don't know, as someone said...
The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
However, 99.99% of organizations will behave exactly as the 10 reasons describe. Yes, I know, it was corporate employers who destroyed the idea of corporate loyalty in the 1980s. It is corporate employers who dump their long-timers to reduce medical costs and grab the pension money. It is corporate employers who will lay off 10,000 people to get a 1% pop in the stock price.
But the very same people who do these things will turn around and destroy the career of a person who accepts a counteroffer. Why? They have "shown disloyalty". Doesn't make sense, I know, but that is the way it is. Take the original offer and don't look back.
sPh
When reading the submission, I was expecting an argument along the lines of "Do it for the community. If you leave, your previous employer will be nudged toward being more proactive in compensating everyone else."
That's a more interesting reason to consider. The listed arguments are pretty weak.
People who disagree with you are not automatically evil, greedy, or stupid.
I've been given counter offers at least three times during my working life, and I never took them. Of course, money was not the root cause in 2 of those departures and in each case I was dumb enought to accept the outside offer before approaching management. Once I've accepted an offer, I go with it - no matter what.
As for the reasons listed on the link, the ones that are the most accurate are the ones that deal with the effect of your about-face on your working relationship with co-workers. As a manager, on the 4 occasions when I have offered counters to my employees, I did it as a sincere gesture to get them to stay - all 4 decided to leave anyway. Lots of times money isn't the real issue. But a 50% raise is hard to counter unless you know you are screwing the employee over.
I work at a Big 10 University, and here counter-offers are the *only* way to get substantial pay raises. It's the recognized method of getting raises - you find a company that will offer you more money, then you show it the University, and they make a counter-offer to keep you.
All the professors who are anybody have done this multiple times, and professional non-academic staff do it as well. Go for it.
I did not design this game/I did not name the stakes/I just happen to like apples/And I am not afraid of snakes-AniD
I've been in this situation several times, and at the end of the day I stick with the "never accept a counter" advice. My main argument is that if I am NOW worth $X amount more, why wasn't I getting that amount before?
I would also feel very uncomfortable staying at a position where I had basically strong-armed them into a pay increase. The whole management relationship changes after something like that, there's a loss of trust there that you can't really ever get back.
Go with your gut, but I've always responded to counter offers with, "Sorry, but I've already accepted the other position."
- my $0.02
Accept the counter-offer, and pray you don't ever have to find another job again. You never know who you pissed of now can be to you in the future...
My $0.02 based on 25 years in the biz.
You've established that you're ready to leave the company if the offer is right. Yes, you get more money by taking the counter-offer. But here's what you lose:
- Your boss has to re-think any long-term plans that include your participation because a new offer with more money can come along at any time. The tough, interesting jobs are more likely to go to employees whom your boss can count on to stick around for a while.
- You've been given a lot more money up front, but it's going to be tempting for them to get some of it back in the form of fewer raises, bonuses, etc.
- If this increase puts you at market average wage, that means your current boss was comfortable paying you only 50% of what you were worth. Do you really want to work for your current employer?
There are two ways I can see this having played out in your current employer's mind.
1. Crap. This one's leaving, but I gotta keep him here for now. I'll give him a raise, get him to finish the project, and see what happens later.
2. This is what I get for not paying attention to pay rates enough. This guy really is worth more than he's getting to me; after all, I was paying him more before the dotcom bust. Maybe I'll offer him the raise he deserves.
Obviously, #1 implies your employer sees you as a merc for hire. #2 means your employer actually cares. Believe me, I've been around enough to know that #2 is practically worth working for at your current pay (assuming it's enough to live on).
You know your employer better than I do. The question is, do you think your employer cares about you and your career? If so, I'd take the counteroffer, and just to make your loyalty clear, work some longer hours for a while to show how much you appreciate it. If you think #1 is closer to the case, decline politely and enjoy your new job.
Lately democracy seems to be based on the skybox, the Happy Meal box, the X-box, and the idiot box.
If you're really, really happy with the job then maybe.
I was in this situation a few years back and like other respondees, accepted and then left anyway a bit further on.
The main problem I found is the resentment (real or otherwise) that built up, on your side - why couldn't they pay me more without me having to take this step - on their side - he's an untrustworthy guy who held us to ransom....
at the end of the day it really depends on the relationship you have with your bosses and understanding they will be.
I don't think you really posted enough details for anyone to give you good advice either way. Read your list of ten reasons, but the one that seems missing there is why, if you were being treated fairly, were you being paid so much less yesterday? Maybe there is a reason for this that you can find acceptable, but it strikes me that if your employer already recognized how valuable you were then it shouldn't have taken this to get them to pay you fairly.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
If they countered and you are slow enough not to consider they are buying time to get a replacement or harbor ill will about all this your going to get what you deserve.
If they do think your worth keeping, and are willing to match the salary. Go for the gold! Ask for a little bit more and a golden parachute. IE> get a contract for a "if i get fired" you give me (name a number you think would cover your distress). When they freak just say "hey, you guys want to keep me, and I want to stay but I need some assurances that this is not going to go bad on me. After such day this contract is null and void." Make it 6 months or a year or whateveryou want. Just cover your butt, at this point your in control because you have out.
I am not saying grill them, I am just saying your in a good position to cover your ass and get some things you want. Remember something made you want a different job figure out what that was and really look to see if it changed. I don'tthink it was all the money. It never is.
Neck_of_the_Woods
#/usr/local/surf/glassy/overhead
One of the "tips" from the linked reasons never to accept a counter-offer:
What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
I've seen this sentiment on occasion, and all I have to say is this: Welcome to the real world.
In the real world, the squeeky wheel gets the grease. Yes, sometimes you will get what you "deserve", but more often you have to ask for it. That doesn't mean you go into your bosses office every week like a prima donna and bang on his desk.
What you do is do your research, and when it's review time you show your worth in the market. If they want to pay, then great. If they don't, then you have a decision to make. Money isn't everything -- you might like working there for less money. You might like the environment. On the hand, you might want different challenges for more money.
The point is that the decision is in your hands. Too many people think that all the power is in the hands of "the boss". It isn't. You have as little or as much power as you decide to have. Note that your power is dependent on your worth. The worthless -- or percieved worthless -- employee is not going to have that much power no matter how many salary surveys they are able to show.
Bottom line: Ignore all this stupid advice. Be a professional: You are in business for yourself, and your employer is your client. Decide whether they are worth having as a client. If there is some "retaliation" as that silly list of reasons seems to think, then move on to the next company. Big deal.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this
day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
If you are valuable to the company, loyalty isn't an issue. If you
aren't, you should worry anyway.
When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is
loyal and who is not.
See above.
When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
See above.
Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow
to your personal pride; you were bought.
You're bought no matter where you go. You think that CEOs aren't
bought? They are, and they're a lot more successful at it than anyone
reading slashdot.
Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies
have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your
next raise early?
Sounds good to me. And the company sees that as real money. They prefer to delay expenses when possible.
Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a
cheaper price.
Again, only if you aren't all that valuable to start with.
The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will
repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
So in the meanwhile you've made more money. And maybe you get another
counteroffer the next time you get fed up.
Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of
voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is
extremely high.
Again, so what?
Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your
co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal
satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
I accepted a counter-offer. Not clear if my co-workers know, but my
relationship with them gas been fine. Again, if you are worth the
money, no one in his right mind will object to you getting it.
What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign
before they will give you what you are worth?
They're all like that. Get over it.
Is your motivation money only? Are you otherwise happy with your position?
I really think that whether or not you accept a counter offer depends on the nature of the company you work for. If you think that the belief system of the company is based around these ideas, then maybe it would be best not to stay. I have issues with almost all of these points. These points are based on a cut-throat enviroment based on suspision and distrust. I have found that this is generally *not* the case in an enviromnent where the company's success is dependant on creative and happy employees.
I don't know anyone who wants to work for boss pinhead. But If you don't have a corporate environment based on suspicion and distrust, then I don't see that accepting a counter offer under the following conditions would be all that bad:
1. Did you *ask* for a raise or promotion?
If not, then you don't know
2. are you generally happy where you are working?
3. are you advancing your career reasonably?
4. how do you get along with your co-workers? your bosses?
these are some simple metrics. The decision is of course based on a good deal of factors.
SCO to Hell
Ive accepted a counter offer before: My current employer at the time matched what a startup had offered me, and I accepted: no need to switch jobs or anything.
They asked me if I was unhappy, I said no, not really, it was just that I was surprised that I was offered so much money, and I would much rather stay where I was (especially with the 25% raise).
I say counter-offers are great.
When I broke the news, well they bumped the number up again another 30%, making it over a 50% raise since before all the haggling began. My current employer, being a govt contractor, couldn't go that high (the govt has limits on how much you can pay employees) so I took the counter-counter offer in the end.
It turns out the whole thing was very enlighting on how low the ceiling was for me at my old position, even though I liked the job/people/etc, you have to go where the money is.
Please note that the page that you have linked, "10 Reasons For Not Accepting a Counteroffer", may be slightly biased. The publishers (JobsOnTheWeb.com) benefit when people change jobs, not when people search for jobs and then keep the one that they have.
50% more of nothing is still nothing.
additionally,
50% more of a slap in the face is just 50% more slaps in the face when you look at your paycheck.
The author of the list is a recuiter.
The only way they make money is if people change jobs. What they list is a complete joke.
Although my work experience has been limited thus far, this is how I look at the situation.
As long as you like what you are currently doing, then you should accept the counter-offer. There is comfort in the normal, and although it may seem your duties at the other company will be similar it could be 10x the stress. Maybe the new company will expect mandatory over-time (for a salary position) without giving you any reward for your sacrifice. Sure maybe the company will fear your loyalty a bit, but at the same time as long as you are valuable to them they will also fight that much harder to be sure you dont have to go out and find another job.
You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
Bull. You are only unhappy with your pay. This is nothing to be surprised about.
When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.
Yeah you decided to stay. How many other people wouldn't even tell their current employer and would bolt for the higher paying job?
When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
They will if your performance doesn't warrant you pay. Make sure you're puttin' out the goods.
Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
We work to get paid. We are all bought.
Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?
Why does this matter? Is your next raise 50%?
Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price.
If this is the case then they would have let you walk. We aren't robots, swapping people to save a buck doesn't always make sense.
The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
Not if all other things are equal, with pay being the only difference. If you like where you work you aren't likely to want to leave again.
Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
Perhaps, but in this economy the probability of ANYONE being let go within a year is pretty high. Voluntarily leaving is mute, you can do that tomorrow.
Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
If "word gets out" then you have a pretty crappy HR dept and manager. Your salary shouldn't be public knowledge.
What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
The money-saving tightwad kind. The kind that can weather dot.burst and a sagging economy and can still afford to keep valueable employees by throwing them some extra cash when push comes to shove.
Post the name of your company, and then ask anybody that's worked for that company, and worked under your boss to post personal experiences. That's the only way you're going to get useful information.
-- -- Ah'm gonna make u mah bich!
...you should never accept a counter-offer:
0. We don't get commision if you stay in your old job!
-- Proud descendant of semi-nomadic cattle-herders.
You followed protocol, and gave your employeer notice, if you think the counter offer is genuine and you would really rather stay, then by all means accept.
As for that "10 reasons" link, it seems to have been written by a headhunter, to dissuade people being relocated to stay. In other words it is completely biased against counter offers cause it would cost the headhunter money if people accepted them.
I had a job where I was paid the same as the data entry people, except I was writing some very advanced programs, shell scripts, and SQL. I did fuzzy matching to discover which item were in our database, thereby reducing data entry by 10 fold.
I found a new job. One where the I would be rewarded in time, and paid better. Really it was the pay that
made me go.
What is "pay"? It's what they think you are worth??? NO! An employeer pays you exactly the ammount that will keep you at you job(or someone like you), and not a penny more. Just enough money to keep you from leaving.
In your case you seem to have help them correct that number.
In my case when I left my job I was told by the owner of the company "We should have paid you twice as much." as I was leaving on my second to last day. I replied "Yes, you should have."
It's a coin toss. There is no one way which is better. For me, I'd turn my back on someone who needed that kind of prodding to pay me my due. Shows me that they are not keeping track of things.
Me? I'd leave, but keep my options open.
Good luck, and I hope that the choice you make is the right one.
-- James Dornan
-- Prepared at the direction of, or to be sent to Legal Counsel, in anticipation of litigation. Attorney Client Pri
Now I'm not just looking to move companies but to have a complete career change because I've become that disillusioned with my field.
If you've already thought enough about leaving the company to apply for something else, be interviewed and get it, then I doubt it is just the extra money that will make you stay -- if it is, why not ask your current company for even more? If you do leave, they might have to pay your replacement as much anyway AND pay for all the costs of finding & training that replacement so if they're really interested in keeping you, they might be willing to go even higher.
----------
"Yes, I have breasts. Now quit looking at them"
http://www.geek-ware.co.uk
and people know this. if you phrase it so that they know you are really happy in your workplace, but life is pretty tough at the moment earning 50% of what you were last time and that you could really do with some extra money (so downplay the other position and "upplay??" the more money factor) then i very much doubt you will be considered disloyal.
;))
going to an interview doesn't neccessarily mean that you want to leave. you can often justify it as being a way to have an awareness of your value to business in general and a way of assessing your own skills, ability and worthyness. if you find that you are worth more money that you are being payed, then you have every right to ask for (and accept) the counteroffer.
think about it socially. lets say you've got a girlfriend and you are out without her and there is another good looking girl around. without being unfaithful to her its fine to flirt with this other girl until you get a positive (or negative) reaction. then you can go back home feeling up-beat about yourself knowing that you can score other chicks; but you'd rather be home in bed with your girlfriend (and enjoy the pleasures of her "counter offers!
hope i'm making sense...
As long as you have a good relationship with your boss and he/she realizes that it was a recruiter that contacted you, why not stay. That is where you are happy. They obviously want you to stay.
I'd also be sincere with the recruiter. If he can get you a job in this economy, he might be able to find something for you in the future when you really do want to leave.
As one who *has* accepted a counter offer, it really does depend. In my case, I was given a "unheardof" 14% raise (actually, not much given that I should've been put into a different "position"... help desk != unix admin). I voiced that opinion and was told "you're free to seek employment elsewhere if you think you can do better". I resigned the next morning (had an offer letter from a consulting firm for 2x my new salary.
My employer countered with a really significant raise. Since the consulting firm said "the job will be here whenever you're ready" (yes, I trusted them) and since I had stuff I wanted to complete at my current job (not to mention that I was too broke to move for the consulting job). I accepted.
However, 6 months later, I took the consulting position.
That said, I accepted the counter knowing full well that I wouldn't stay permanently. (When I resigned the second time I gave them significantly more notice than the 2 weeks I had given them the first time around).
Certain points do apply:
1. If they think you're that valuable now, and weren't going to give it to you without the threat of leaving, you were being screwed.
2. Most employees who accept a counter won't be around 6-12 months later. Generally because money is almost _never_ the entire reason people leave a job. (There is usually some other reason, money is only part of it). Most employers know this fact also (that's why many will NEVER make a counteroffer).
Depending on where you work, how you get more money varies. Some places you have to threaten to quit. Others will give you a raise if you tell them you think you're underpaid (and they agree). Almost no employer will voluntarily increase your pay outside of a scheduled review.
Ignore anyone who tells you that if they valued you they'd be paying you more without you having to quit. That's nonsense. You might love your car, but when you went to the dealer you tried to get the best price you could. Maybe you even threatened to go to a different dealer. Interviewing at other companies is a legitimate tactic in salary negotiations. However, if you don't let your current employer know that salary negotiations are going on, they can get upset.
--
E_NOSIG
I work in a big company, and had the same thing happen. I accepted the counter offer that my original company offered. It worked out well for me, because they didn't realize I was dissatified with my pay. It would be different if I had asked for a raise, been denied, and got a counter when I "threatened" to quit. It's most definately a case by case situation, but just be careful of thinking everything is a conspiracy.
I've been offered counter offers twice now...And taken them. Once it was good and once it was bad.
If the _only_ reason you were looking for a new job was pay then take the counter offer. You will be even happier with a bunch more cash.
Of course if there are other reasons then you might want to leave. I have stayed because of cash and some stuff still sucked. Of course you get to ride the gravy train for a few more months until you finally decide to leave...
Oh, And those people who say 'do you really want to work for a company who only offers you a pay rise if you threaten to leave?'. Wake up! What you have when you are employed is a contract for them to pay you x and for you to do x. If either side is unhappy then they should bring up the issue. I have asked for payrises before and more often than not got them. If I sat on my arse and not asked then I wouldn't have got them. Also if they offer you a pay rise at a yearly review and its not enough, ask for more. They can only say no.
/b
[Please type your sig here.]
I don't think the advice on that web page is particularly good. It may be decent advice in general, but I think yours is somewhat of a special case.
:-)
The tech industry is coming out of a period where starting salaries were depressed. There were so many unemployed techies that companies tried to push starting salaries down as low as possible. If there's someone in your company with an identical job who's been there for 1.5-2 years, they probably have a salary that's close to what you've been counter-offered (maybe more!). My guess is that the counter-offer is reflecting the fact that employers no longer have an endless pool of job applicants---they wouldn't be able to pick-up someone else at your old salary if you leave.
So, my advice is: if the *only* reason you'd leave your current company is the salary, accept the counter-offer and stay where you are. Most of that web page advice doesn't apply to you and changing jobs can be a major pain in the a**!
Jason
What you should do is carefully examine your current responsibilities. Do they only offer you the money because you need to finish a certain high profile project? Is your work kind of seasonal, a lot of high stress followed by a lot of little work? If so you chances are that you will be booted out after your current project fails. However, as I wrote in the headline, I made a different experience. In my case I directly went to the CEO explaining the reasons for why I might be leaving. I told him that I do not have any other reasons than a 40% pay raise to leave. That I don't know what to do because it is just unrealistic to not take that kind of money at another respected company, no dot.gone company. He then almost matched the offer (35% raise) and it turned out good for me. Good luck!
Counter offers are a dangerous thing. I once accepted one only to quit three months later. That was because the extra cash and new job title really didn't change the things that I hated about the company I was in at the time.
They are flattering when you get them, but step back and look at your situation critically. Consider things like these:
- Is an increase in your present company with no other changes in the environment going to make you happy?
- Maybe the place you're going to has better job security over your present job?
- Are there other factors that are making you look for another position other than money?
You also have to consider the fact that you have now telegraphed your "dislike" for your present company. Your present employer isn't going to be thrilled that you're leaving and you may find that it is difficult to work there going forward.
I won't deny that it's a tough decision, but the safe route IMHO is to say no and move on.
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
If I read the story correctly, in this case, the new job offer came to you, you didn't actively seek it out. So what's wrong with going to your boss and saying, this is what I'm worth to other companies, surely you can afford to pay me this too? Of course you should have played it that way from the start instead first telling them you were leaving.
off 1 month later. You are better with a fresh start rather then the possibility of being seen as not loyal.
1st are you really happy at the job you are at? Will the new job offer anything besides money? How about perks? Even little things like free coffee can make a difference.
2nd Did the first job just match the new job's money without anything else... That's not an incentive to stay, that's an incentive to not bother looking.
3rd What do you want to do with your life in the big picture? How do you want to be remembered? Which of these jobs best fit that?
4th Money. When are pay reviews scheduled for each job? What beneifits does each job have? (Health/dental etc).
5th Distance. This has become important to me. It takes me 3/4 hour to get to work, and that hour and a half a day I would much rather put to other use. Which job is closer to home?
All in all, make a list of your reasons, give each reason an importance value, and sum the totals. If you aren't happy with the answer then do it again. (after all there is no cheating here, it's your life).>
What bothers me about the whole situation is the huge pay cut. If they put you through a huge pay cut only to offer it back, how is this fair to you? Also, how do you know the same thing won't happen again if the economy migrates even farther south (i.e. tierra del fuego)? I guess my point is, the company seems like it's being a bit cheap and is only willing to pay up when the peasants start contemplating the torches and pitchforks. I'd rather be a happy minion at a new job than a pissed off, pitchfork wielding, low paid peasant who has show some loyalty to my existing company. Of course, I've worked mostly as a contractor until my current job..
Planetes
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promo Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitl
The 10 reasons that you linked to assume that your company is looking out for your best interests over thier bottom line.
/._)
This type of company is rare in the extreme (I can think of two among all the places I've
worked and the ones my friends worked at).
The company you work for is trying to maximize their profits and logic dictates that they should pay you as little as you will happily (productively) accept. You should also consider the possibility that they didn't even know your real value until you presented the offer. Many non-tech bosses and HR departments are slow to understand and follow the very dynamic IT job market (I'm assuming you are in IT if you are posting to
I'd say that they do value you and that they have shown this by ponying up a big 50% raise to keep you.
The part about loosing friends at work is crap too. If you are really friends with the people at work, then they will wish the best for you and they'll go get thier own damn raises. Personally, I'd applaud any of my coworkers for getting a fat raise. It's MY responsibility to get the same for myself, either through negotiation, pressure, or sheer brilliance and hard work.
If you like where you work, stick with what you know... stick with the sure thing. If you work with a bunch of a**holes who would stop talking to you because you got a fat raise, you need to go somewhere else where your coworkers respect you.
jmho,
ffakr
why not mention to the other job that you are thinking about it because your current job just made a counter offer. possibly the new job might make another offer or atleast increase some of the benefits. if not ya still will have some time to think about it. i would prob take the new job anyway. its allways fun making new friends...
"Success always occurs in private, and failure in full view."
The main reason is quite simple: they were seeing what they could get away with. They were not paying you what you were worth; rather, they were paying you what they thought you'd tolerate. I NEVER work for people like that. You should politely tell your manager, "Thanks for the offer, but why did you not pay me that in the first place?" It's always interesting to see them squirm.
I started my own consulting business for that very reason. When people ask me to lower my rates, I politely say, sorry, but that's what I'm worth. If you think you can find others, you're more than welcome to. Some walk, some don't. Yet, today, I've got an international client base and billables over $350K per person. It's gotta be working some way. Mercedes-Benz don't drop their prices below a certain point. That's the price of quality.
OTOH, as a guy who started and sold a dot com, I can also tell you that you should have indicated some concerns BEFORE you began looking. That gives the employer a chance to re-evaluate. Sadly, in the States, you could get fired right there. Businesses here suck about loyalty.
On a side note: I always made it a rule to tell employees that they should ALWAYS come to me with issues. No one works for me forever, so if you're not happy, that's fine. Either we can make you happy, or _I_ can help you get the next job. Who knows where you'll be in 5 years? I might need your help then! It's always worked for me, and I showed the same respect to my employees and teams as well.
Rememnber, it's all about mutual respect.
---
It's worth remembering that your prospective new employers have had time to consider how much they wanted to pay you and get approvals for the salary and benefits. If you rushed them too much or pushed them too hard, it might not turn out to be such a great idea to take the job.
On the other hand, it's practically guaranteed that your current employers were rushed; so can they really afford to pay you your new salary for an extended period of time? They may not know the answer to that question any more than you do.
Your existing employers may have projects you're working on that they don't want to bring someone new up to speed on. So they definitely need you in the short term. But, you've gone job hunting before and you might do it again. Most people like to have some stability to their existence, and employers are no exception. There can be some resentment there, and the fact is, all they really need you for at this point is to get those current projects into shape to hand off. So even with a raise, your current job might not be the most stable thing after you've let them know you've gone out hunting.
Taking a counter-offer may not be all that good an idea.
Not only that, but the company's web site that wrote the 10 reasons is a RECRUITER! Of course they don't want you to take a counteroffer--THEY WON'T GET PAID. It's just as biased as if Microsoft offered a 10 reasons not to use Linux page.
sig--we don't need no goddamn sig
About a year ago I had an offer from a contracting agency for almost double my existing salary. After some thought, I decided to give my current employer a chance to match. I didn't really expect them too... However, after presenting my boss with the information, it took less than an hour for them to not just match, but offer me more than the contracting agency!
My point is this. If you want to increase your salary well beyond the (typical) annual 4%, you usually have to go out and find a new job. However, if you _really_ enjoy where you work, it's definitely worth the risk of asking for them to match. What do you have to lose?
Go here for teh [sic] funny.
Accepting counter-offers isn't necessarily a bad thing; however, the motivational factors that drive the decision should not be 'cold-hard-cash' (or at least that should not be the perception). It is my opinion (and experience) that a lot of respect, from both team and management, can be lost if it is perceived that all they mean to you is that paycheck. While in your case 'cash' seems to be the only reason, why don't you try negotiating your counter offer to add other career oriented gains (ie. a promotion, more responsibility, control over certain areas that are out of reach, etc...) as well as the extra pesos. This will show that you are more goal and career oriented. Just an opinion!
Employment is (or should be!) a more complicated situation than "how much cash am I given". If money was your sole reason for leaving and you were happy otherwise, then hey, the counteroffer should be fine. On the other hand, if there were other factors -- job duties, coworkers, schedule, general happiness, whatever -- then you need to consider whether the counteroffer addresses those. If it's just a larger bribe to tolerate a still-bad situation, you probably don't want to stay. If, on the other hand, your employer really doesn't want to lose you and demonstrates an effort to make you stay, than you should definitely consider it.
Having seen management from both ends of the spectrum, plenty of times someone's pay is what it is and no one thinks "Gee, we're really giving X the shaft, woo hoo!" on a regular basis. You're just on their radar in that way. Suddenly, you say you've gotten a nice offer and are considering it and they realize that they could and would like to keep you. Counter offer made. Nine times out of ten, they aren't going to suspect you or distrust you. A counter offer represents a statement of their valuation of you.
No one here can tell you how to decide, but don't let your decision to decline the counter offer be based on imagined suspicions of you. Most managers I know, and when I was one myself, just don't have the time. If you're valued, you're valued. --> Which is what some folks have already said: what kind of boss is this counter offer coming from. If he's a good guy, it's an honest re-evaluation of your importance. If he's not, then, yeah, maybe the counter offer isn't such a good idea.
why is everyone so worried about being a so called "money whore" or sellout. are any one of you going to tell me that if someone doubled your salary to do the same thing you wouldn't take it? its one thing if you make over a million a year its another for all of us normal people making less than six digets. that is capatalism, there is nothing wrong seeking top dollar for you abilities, there is nothing wrong bargining or encouraging bidding for you services if they are in high demand. we are cattle on the market place of labor and we have to sell ourselves. i for one am going to try to get the most i can for my skills!
Take the counter-offer for a job you're happy with and risk being the first to be layed off when times are tough..
*munches on the McD's cheeseburger taken home from work*
or risk taking a new job and having it not work out..
*notices I'm down to my last ramen packet for tonight's dinner*
This drama isn't as interesting as last night's Star Trek, but I'll e-mail it to my friends.
Right here.
We assign value to our employees because we recognize that our business depends on having skilled, dependable, professional people.
We assign value to our employees because we have a certain task that needs to be done a certain way in a certain amount of time for a certain cost.
A perfect example of a firm that follows the latter school of thought would be the Professional Services arm of EMC. In my time there, I found that institutionally, they regarded their employees as distateful things that they had to have around. There was a high amount of demand on the employee to accomplish tasks in a certain fashion on a certain timetable. The employee's input on that timetable or execution process was not very highly sought after. Employees were laid off, while workload was increased in an effort to maximize profits. While maximizing profits is not a Bad Thing, attempting to do it in this fashion is not wise, long term. The result is that the majority of the folks employed there are looking to jump ship: Contractors were hired on at a third of their contracting weekly take -- their other choice was to simply have their contract cancelled (this, of course, at the same time that the job market was heading downward. In this environment, the employer has very little regard for the employee, and is a pretty awful place to work: If you try to leave you will be coerced either with money, or with an implied threat of your new employer (who happens to be an EMC customer) getting trouble if they hire you -- no matter if your contact with that client was through EMC or not, and no matter if there was any teaming agreement in place.
The other end of that spectrum is the company which has more long-term vision: They are also interested in maximizing profits, but they realize that their operations will run more smoothly if they reciprocate some of the loyalty that they expect from their employees. In this instance, the employer might make a demand of you (for example, sacrifice 18 hours of a weekend in a data centre), however, they will realize that this is a hardship and rather than just have you suck it up, give you something in return (a few days off, for example).
If the company has no loyalty to you, expect that every time you need something, you'll have to complain loudyly. If, however, they realize that a happy employee will be a very productive one, they will nearly always treat you fairly and rarely put you in a position where you need to make demands
What the hell is this all "loyalty" business?
Loyalty is not in my contract.
Considered harmful.
One of my former lead programmers did exactly this: he interviewed and got an offer from another company, our producer wanted to keep him on, so the company countered for *more* than the outstanding offer, and he stayed. He remained for about one year, then left for the same company that had made him the offer in the first place for even *more* money. A couple of observations:
1. If you're a valued enough asset at your current company that they're willing to up your salary, they're not likely to turn around and axe you first chance they get... why not just let you go, and avoid having to worry about severence and all the hassle?
2. There is nothing wrong with changing your mind once, twice, or three times. People do these things all of the time, in the course of their career, but...
3. Don't burn bridges! Your current employer may counter; your prospective new employer may also respond by increasing their offer in kind. Stranger things have happened. And when you make up your mind about what job you want to take, remember to be kind to both sides: you may end up going back to your original company or leaving for the new one later down the road, and keeping your options open is always a good thing.
--J
I think you should take the counteroffer. As you stated, you're happy at your current job and the only incentive for leaving was money; with that removed, I don't see why you should leave.
And to all the people talking about how you'll be branded disloyal... come on, use your brains. I have been in that exact situation. I went to my boss and told him pretty much: "I'm really happy here, I like the job, but I got this offer for this much more money andI'll probably take it". Now, unless your boss is a total dick, he can understand that a 50 percent raise is one heckuva incentive. If he goes to bat for you to get a similar raise, I say take it.
There should be no hard feelings, since your actions were perfectly reasonable. I don't think any boss will brand you as disloyal because you had intentions of earning 50 percent more; in fact, they might despise you if you didn't.
The best case would have been to go to your boss before accepting the other offer and saying you're having a hard time deciding; but even in your situation, I think you can make your boss empathize with your decision.
Source of list
Gosh, if its on the web it must be true.
Of course a recruiter would give reasons to not accept a counter offer.
sik
If you accept this counter offer you are sending a message: he can be underpaid for a long time before we have to bring him up to norms.
So for those of us who have not found a better job - YET - please refuse the coutner offer. Make management become pro-active in keeping those who are worth keeping. I personally hate looking for a new job, but I see some writing on the wall, and I think I'm worth more. If everyone refused counter offers, management would be forced to do their job of getting to know me and figguring out what I'm worth to the company now instead of what I'm worth elsewhere.
Simply put, I've been here for a few years. I know obscure details of the system that most of the other programers don't know. If I leave they lose the knowledge I can pull out of my head as needed. Depending on the situation that means either reading documentation (typically out of date), code (at least it is accurate, but you miss the subtil points), or finding bugs in testing instead of design. Appearently the company doesn't agree that my expirence is worth much though, or they would pay me for it.
The first question is, if they can afford to pay more for you and feel that you are worth more, why didn't they pay you that in the first place? The reason they haven't paid you is because they thought they could get away with it (and they have). So you're working for a company that doesn't value the work that you do enough to pay you it.
Secondly, what will happen if you take the money? You're now earning more than your co-workers, who probably are being stiffed by your company as well. This means that the next performance review that comes around, the company will use the reason that you're earning more to give you a lower pay rise than your co-workers.
You'll more than likely find that if you stayed for the next couple of years that the gap between your salary and that of your co-workers will be reduced as they seek to return you back to the standardised pay-scale that is throughout the organisation.
In the end, your extra money will be worth very little as every review, your co-workers will get closer to you.
You have a job offer doing the same work from a company that appreciates your worth. Congratulations and I hope it goes well.
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
You are worth whatever you are willing to take. If you took a job at -30% than that is what you were worth. Your company was just buying a product. Plus, I think it is only fair to the company, if you like it at least, that you give them a chance to extend your employment.
I did accept a counter offer and now my job is a living hell. The 10 reasons in the link are almost dead on. The only thing that was different was my peers thanked me for not leaving them in a rut with a new person with no training.
My company is looking at replacing me now that they know that I want to be paid what I am worth. (Horrible of me isn't it.) Things will not be the same after taking the counter offer. Management thinks that you will need to go above and beyond on everything (because they threw you the bone and "kept" you.) Did I mention DONT DO IT!
Photons have mass!!?? I didn't even know they were Catholic...
I just glanced at the about.com reasons to never accept a counter-offer. They seem geared towards a disgruntled employee who has no loyalty to a company. In reality counter-offers are good tools to maintain fairness in the job market. This answer seems like a "union-shop" answer, and many people in technology companies do not participate... or have them at all.
;>)
... if I wasn't for me keeping on the ball my salary would be the same too.
If a potential company seeks you out it is your right to check it out. This is one of the many ways that you can do market research. If you are worth 80 thousand anywhere else in the market and only getting paid 50 - most companies don't readily give out 30 thousand dollar raises (unless your Enron
As for loyalty, I've stayed (essentially) at the same company through 15 managers, and a buyout. Essentially the entire food chain above me changed
Just my $0.02.
I got a nice job offer, a 40% salaray increase, plus I was going to finally get my foot into the C/C++ software development industry, coming out of a Linux/Apache/mod_perl background.
I told my employer that I was going to leave, and they took me out to a nice restaurant, told me that I had to stay, and offered me 10% above them. So I stayed.
Six months later, they let me go because they couldn't afford me.
Don't stay! Jump ship!
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
I was looking at another job. It wasn't the money, it was the bosses boss that was a pain. I was given a counter-offer. I still took the other job. 3 months later I was back at the first job with an even higher salary. That was 4 years ago...I've not been on any chopping blocks or anything.
Only thing in my advantage is that everyone knew what a pain the head boss was, so they could see my PoV
it means they want to KEEP you! Don't worry about "being the first to be cut" or appearing disloyal. If your employer has that kind of vindictive attitude, you'd probably know it already, and you wouldn't even consider the counter offer.
And maybe they were underpaying you. So? They're in business and so are you. You can get more and you've proved it. They can pay more and they are willing to prove it. It's a free market. Where's the problem?
http://ob-la-blog.blogspot.com/
The most important thing mentioned here is that your old employee will think that you are not Loyal and will not give you any raise in the future etc..
But your new employee may think 'Hey he way so unloyal to his old employee that he accepted my offer. Will he accept another offer in say 6 month from another company'.
So i think the only thing you need to think about is if you are happy at your current job or not. If you are stick to it. If not try the other one.
There is no such thing as gravity. The Earth just sucks.
Its tough to say without actually being here, but in my experience its not the earth-shattering thing that people make it out to be. Your employer should understand that you will take a better job unless they match it. Remember that loyalty only flows one way, if it flows at all.
I had a friend who works for IBM get fed up with the work environment. He talked with Sun, got an offer, and it was to the point that they wanted to set a date for the moving van. When he submitted his resignation, big blue came through and had a much better deal. He stayed and has done very, very well.
Another friend who works for Microsoft posted on monster.com, and a few days got a call from his senior management saying "Clearly you are unhappy. What can we do to make it better?". They made his life better and he stayed.
One company I worked at, often they wouldn't OFFER you raises unless you threatened to leave. It was some sick part of the company's culture. Some of the highest payed people, and who worked there the longest (14, 15, 16 years) got where they were by entertaining outside offers every so often. It was a weird company anyway, true, but mentioning you had been offered X amount more by someone else sure didn't seem to be frowned upon.
I take issue with an item from that "list":
* Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
I have NEVER seen this to hold true. Usually, if you're in that position, your co-workers will understand where you're coming from, and no one treats you differently. If anything, they respect you for taking a stand. Especially in a low-morale corporate culture.
This is a dog eat dog world. You should do what is in your self-interest, and only you know that. No company would think twice about letting you go or reneging on an offer if it was in their best interests to do so. Neither should you.
The linked-to reasons are all fair reasons for not even asking for a counter offer (i.e. just leaving). But they're not reasons for not accepting one if it's offered. In particular, the concept of loyalty is pathetically outdated. It might be mutual in a very small company (under 10 people, say), but anything over that and you can be damn sure that the guy in charge will feign - hey, perhaps even feel - reciprocal loyalty to the staff... right up to the point where times get hard. Then the rationalising and self justification kicks in, and everybody starts to look like a drain on resources. And that's not just in huge companies: look at the way that Loki employees got screwed in return for their loyalty.
Hell, if it makes you feel better, knock 10% off of what they're offering you and tell them that's what you actually think you're worth. Are you going to do that? Of course you're not.
This must rank as one of the dumbest questions I've ever seen posted on Slashdot.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Despite all the naysaying, there are definite times when a counter-offer is the way to go. If you truly love your job and the people you work with, and they're finally going to give you that last thing that really completes the picture -- money -- then maybe staying is the way to go.
I hit a situation a couple of years ago, when the dot com bubble was still running strong, where I had gotten a big raise - yet learned that new hires, whom I was training, were making more than 10k above what I was. I went out and fished up another job, brought the offer to my boss (whom I trusted), and told him that I knew I wasn't making fair market value. I told him that I wanted him to know *first*, before announcing my resignation, before I signed this offer letter, printed on the other company's letterhead. I asked him what we could do about this - if my company truly wanted to keep me, or if they were only partly satisfied with my work, and didn't feel I was worth the extra expense.
A few days of negotiation later, my company followed suit, and matched the offer. With the exception of grumbling about the assignments I've been placed on lately - a move precipitated by losing most of our software development contracts, rather than any kind of managerial backlash - the job has stayed good, my relationship with my employer is solid, and I don't have to worry about looking for any low-paying work in today's crunched market.
The counter-offer payed off for me.
Every situation is different. Analyze it, use your brain, and make the call. You'll be alright.
No one's going to go out and increase your income for you!
The company gave you a pay cut because they thought they could get away with it given the current economy. So let's clear the air and say they already don't care about you. Most companies view employees as "resources" not as people anyway.
No company expects loyalty when they aren't loyal. So don't refuse the counter offer on the grounds they will look for revenge. They won't. Nobody gives you a 50% raise then fires you. It just doesn't make economic sense. And co-workers won't hate you because you make more money, they would do the same in your position.
What it comes down to is where you would like working better. If you like your current job and the people you work with stay. If you think the new company looks like a better place to work then go there.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human.
What you are going to read here are two sides of the same truth. You will have idealists who believe that the company is doing nothing more than making a good-will offer to keep a good employee with the company. You will also have cynnicists who will tell you that they now no longer trust you, as you are unloyal; and are ripe to be cut.
Neither and both are likely true, to one degree or another.
I work for a large corporation (30,000 emploees), and have seen counter-offered employees treated both ways. Generally, the end result is decided by the actions of the employee, not the corporation or management. The employee will perceive things and act on those perceptions, whether there is merit to their paranoia or not. There have been a few poorly-reared managers who have given "theatened-to-leave but stayed" employees a hard time, but this is the exception and is not necessarily a reflection on corporate culture. I can see this being a bigger POTENTIAL problem in smaller companies, where the politics tend to be more vicious.
My advice it to take the offer; changing companies is a lot hard than staying put for the same money. Sit back and relax, and if anything bad happens, or people really do give you a hard time... you can obviously find a job somewhere else if you have to.
SlashSigTheorem: Humorous, Political, Critical, Constructive- If you have a
A friend of mine started out in the newspaper biz as a photographer/reporter at a small regional chain of weekly newspapers. Over the course of 2 years working that gig he ended up taking over most of the IS duties because the guy they had in the company was a trust fund idiot, he liked doing it and wanted to help the company transition to a more digital existence (which with papers covering all of northwest Washington State and a single printing plant made perfect sense to all concerned). Unfortunately there wasn't really an MIS type position at the company so he went looking for something that would allow him to follow this type of job path.
He was offered a position at a similar company in the region and took that to his current employer. Not only did he end up with a raise as the counter offer but an entire department including hardware/software budget, carte blanche on designing and spec-ing the systems, an assistant and the opportunity to identify others in the company that might be interested in doing similar work with him. Since that time, the company has been purchased by a larger, Canadian company and his job (including salary and responsibilites) have expanded dramatically and he couldn't be happier.
I guess the moral of my story is that if you like the company you work for, you like the job you have and you can identify similar advancement potential within your current company compared to the new company (assuming that's something you want), then you should go for it. You never know what kind of situation you'll be walking into in the other company (why do they need a new person anyway, churn because they treat their employees like shit?). Of course, if you think that the new company will provide better advancement potential, by all means, take that job.
You might also consider taking this opportunity to negotiate a performance review/pay-raise schedule with your current employer as part of the incentive package for keeping you there.
E
There's one thing computing teaches you, and that's that there's no point to remembering everything.
--Doug Copland
So you need to search for another environment. A judicious selection of the new environment is important. But the most important thing is that you won't be in an statis anymore, you will be moving. Your entrance in the new environment will probably upset all existing... well... equilibria (hey, that's nice, probably even correct!
Of course, if you "only" want an easy well payed job for all your life, please keep to the known environments.
Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
If you are in any skill-oriented business, and you are competent, this doesnt apply imo.
Ive had experience with offers and counter offers, and when accepting a counter offer the original employer has always been happy to retain you.
If you go out of your way to strongarm the company, well they might just not make a counter offer: so be ready for that. Never come to them without something solid: a printed offer letter is perfect.
And you have to be amicable, something like: "Boss, company X is trying to made me this offer, here look. Im happy here, but I am considering it..."
or something to that effect.
Most of the reasons listed for avoiding price negotiations are employer FUD from those who dont like to see people getting paid what their worth, and want to treat employees as interchangeable cogs in a machine.
The only way to earn what you produce is to let employers decide how much youre worth to them. If you only consider offers in a vacuum, then you are cheating yourself.
I think every situation is unique and you should go with your gut.
A good friend of mine was underpaid and overworked. He threatened to go, got a counteroffer, and while he's still overworked he's no longer (as) underpaid. Those who were close to him knew about this, and none of us changed how we felt about him. In fact, we all felt he was overworked and likely underpaid, and we were happy to hear he got some of what he was due. I've since moved on from that group, but I've stayed in touch, and this guy is still in a very high-profile position and has evidently been getting regular-enough raises that he hasn't felt the need to leave again. Heck, he's lasted a lot longer than anyone he's worked for has.
As for your manager not respecting you, I have to repeat what has already been said. What you add to your group is infinitely more important than how much money you make or whether your boss thinks you're "loyal."
So, if you feel the current job is the one for you, take it. If the other job is some world-shattering oppurtunity, take that instead. But don't let the conventional wisdom scare you out of doing what you want.
Not representing or approved by my company or anybody else.
Don't make a habit of looking for another job every time you want a raise, though, that'll breed bad blood pretty quickly. Here are a couple of relevant tidbits: 1) My personal feeling--and I've heard this echoed by several of my own bosses--is that what a good employer wants most from a good employee is to know what's wrong before it gets bad enough to make them leave, and a chance to fix it. Of course, the strongest place to negotiate this is from the door on your way out, but you should be willing to consider coming back in if the new job isn't clearly superior in pay and type of work to the old. 2) As for why you were paid so much less before, it looks like you haven't been at your current job long enough to get a regular raise (several months), so this is your boss's opportunity to tell you what your current value to the company is. The reason you were making 2/3 of the new salary before is that they didn't know you as well when they hired you as they do now. If your boss isn't an asshole, you should be in a good place now. 3) Never forget that the employer's *job* is to hire you for as little as you'll happily take (though some go for "as little as you'll bitterly take"), and your job is to get them to pay as much as they happily will. Of course they'll pay you less if you'll take it, just as you wouldn't say now if they offered you a million a year. Don't rag on employers for doing their job--as long as they aren't blood-thirsty about it. From personal experience: 1) At my first job I managed to double my salary in 5 years. I started entry level and left as one of the more senior folks. That company did value my skills, and one big raise came when I had a very serious offer from another company. I'd had several sizable raises before that, and several after. I didn't see anything different in the way I was treated after the counter-offer was made and accepted. Actually, the only one who seemed to get mad was the recruiter for the other company who lost a commision. 2) When I left the company above, a year and a few months later, I told my boss that I had another offer, and I was leaving. The immediate response was "Is this going to be an annual affair?" So, as I said, don't go looking for counter offers on a regular basis. Actually, things were quite cordial after I explained I was leaving for personal reasons, and planning to move across the country. 3) At another job, a friend was looking to quit to get a little more money and more interesting work. I only knew because of our friendship. My friend never even considered looking for a counter offer. I suggested stating to the boss exactly what it would take to make it worth staying. My friend thought it seemed extravagant--more money, more flexibility, better schedule--but it was accepted in *minutes* because my friend is a very valuable employee! In short, if you don't think your employer will dick you around or resent you for it, take the counter offer and embrace the devil you know over the devil you don't.
don't leave. Take the counter offer, no question. The new job my be a real pain in the ass job, you will never know until you actually start working there.
How many times have you started a job and thought it was one thing and turned out to be completely different and you hated it. I have had several like that.
I currently work at a place that I love and wouldn't leave for anything at this point. Finding good employers is extremely difficult - extremely.
I think your current employer will understand that you were just looking to better your life, not screw them over. They value you and want you to stay. If they decide to kick you to the curb in 3 months, so what you got work somewhere you liked for another 3 months.
Go with your gut and you will make the right decision, no slashdotter is going to be able to get the vibes from your employer.
Hold on people. Let's take a look at the source here:
www.jobsontheweb.com
Hmmmmm...Just think about this for a second. They even refer to themselves as 'headhunters'.
Now why would a headhunter website post a top-ten list about why you should accept a headhunter's offer over your exsisting company's counter-offer?
Always consider an author's motivations before you read anything. Especially advice.
You should remember, "If I'm worth it now, I was worth it before." Go to the other job.
Has anybody noticed that the site posting the 10 reasons to leave is an employment agency type? Of course it's in thier interest for you not to take the counter-offer since that is the only case in which they will get more work. In this light I'd take all the reasons mentioned with pinch of salt.
-H
PS: Personally I agree with one of the other comments mentioning that this situation wouldn't have occurred if you'd asked your current employee for a raise first.
- Carnun, Son of Danu -
"Existentialism lead to nihilism. Nihilism lead to dancing"
I've accepted counter-offers before, and it hasn't really been a problem. I don't discuss it with coworkers, though, and I've got an advantage in that the folks at the corporate office who decide such things are at a comfortable distance and I don't deal with them on a regular basis.
The fact is, in this industry sometimes that's the only way to establish your fair market value. I've got commitments where I'm at, and my current employer arguably needs me more than anyone else, but they'd better be prepared to pay me what I'm worth.
My, a lot of you are very cynical, if you truely believe that your company will hold you for a short time, then replace you with someone cheaper. Why are you working for that company? They are clearly arseholes...
I think the fact that you gave the company a chance to match it shows that you _are_ loyal. Clearly if employees are being underpaid, etc then they _will_ look for other jobs. However if that employee turns around and says, "look, I've just discovered that I can make x money elsewhere, which I could definately use. However I would rather keep working here, make me an offer" Its a damn sight better then the employee just quiting.
My main beef is:
"Besides, if the companuy you are so in love with was off by 50% in salary, then they were screwing you anyway"
No, you were screwing yourself. It is the _employee's_ responsibility to ensure that they are being compensated to a degree appropriate to your skills and abilities. Not the employer's. It is in the best interest of the employer to remain competative, however they have no responsibility to pay their staff top dollar.
If you are being underpaid, look elsewhere, but don't bitch.
I was working at the local university here I was also a student. I worked in tech support.
I had been farmed out to set up another department's network, and completed that job, at which point I was also farmed out to the nursing school. The nursing school wanted me full time and actually offered to pay $4 more per hour than my old job. My old job counter offered with a $2 raise (they couldnt afford more). Because of how much I loved that job I kept it with just the $2 raise.
I kept that job till I left school.
I do regret not takeing the opportunity at the nursing school though, not because of the pay, but because of the WOMEN!
... including a double - one that was repeated, even better, a few months later.
The problem is, you can't really discuss it with your current employer before you accept the new position (seems too much like extortion, to me), and after you accept, you make enemies in your field if you accept a counter offer and don't take the new position that you agreed to take.
The only professional thing to do is resign gracefully and take the new position that you've accepted. Professional behavior will serve you better in the long run.
There are all sorts of things to look at when deciding to accept/reject a counter offer. Most importantly, take advantage of the fact that you now have a choice.
One is: Just how good is your current employer? If they spuriously gave you a 30% pay cut on the premise of the dot-com bust, are they likely to do it again? Are they willing to give you a written promise that you will keep your new job/salary for a long period of time? How stable is the company if it had to give it's employees a 30-50% pay cut? If this is actually an issue, are they willing to offer you a golden parachute? More to the point: Just how much do you trust your current company (or -- for that matter -- the company that made the first offer).
You also have to consider peer-acceptence whether you stay or go. If this presages a general increase in wages, your peers may love you for what you are setting in motion.
You may want to talk to your peers. They may have info on your current company that influences your go/no-go decision. You may (or may not) want to get into the details of 50%, but you can probably let them know that you now have offers from another company and your boss, and you need to make a choice. If nothing else, they'll find out when you've left.. Why not do them the honor of letting them know now.
Also: consider that the "never accept a counter-offer" pages are possibly put up by head-hunters who only make money if they get your head. ... ... ...)
They don't actually care about your career. They only care about the money that they get for placing you (and then for placing your replacement -- and then replacing that replacement
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
There seems to have been a lot of talk about disloyalty to the company and how damaging that can be. I think what it boils down to is how loyal was the company being to you when they were so severely underpaying you. I have been with a couple of different companies that employed this practice and I was more than happy to turn a blind eye because I was learning something each time. What I ended up learning was that very few businesses really worry about their employees well being and are more concerned with the bottom line. Be very afraid of the bottom line because if it slips then so does your new raise and probably your whole position. If the company really cares about you though and they admit that they made a mistake in undervaluing your worth to the company and they really really mean it, then you're probably okay......yeah right
Company personnel departments can subscribe to salary surveys that are a slightly more accurate version of what I can find on Jobserve. Same problem.
From the point of view of the company, the value of an employee is the money they will earn if they hire him/er minus the money they will make if they don't, and also minus the costs of employing that person (about 50% of which is the salary, and the other 50% is desk, office space, electricity bills, computer, 10% of the cost of a manager, etc).
Any sum involving a big approximate number minus another big approximate number is going to have a huge error bar on the answer. For a software engineer the error bar probably exceeds the salary.
So managers, who perforce must make decisions regardless of the absence of evidence, fall back on rules of thumb. The first rule is, pay the going rate for that job title, hence those salary surveys. The second rule of thumb is that staff turnover is expensive. Every time you hire someone you commit money to teaching them the ropes until they become productive (whenever that is, see above), and also take a risk that this investment will be written off if they turn out to be bozos, or just up and leave in six months.
So, are you worth another 50% to your current employer? Possibly. Your management guesses so, but they might be wrong.
Paul.
You are lost in a twisty maze of little standards, all different.
DO NOT STAY - big mistake. IF they make an offer in writing hold it in hand, try the new job, and if for some reason you still want to go back to the old company, start negotiations fresh from that new offer they had made.
You've done all the work to find another place to work, why would you NOT move on? Chances are your career will be greatly enhanced by facing NEW and DIFFERENT problems in a different environment anyway.
You have todo what makes you happy, shiny things does not improve your life.
Of course happiness is the first concern; being that my job is also my hobby- this was not an issue. I would have been happy in either place.
Now having money cannot make you happy, an acute lack of it can certainly make you sad.
As for the web sites I would question who is behind those comments. Well meaning do gooders or crafty (is there any other kind) recruiters? Remember that if you accept the counter offer the recruitment agency gets nothing compared to the 20%+ (Irish number) of your year's salary they would get if you didn't accept the counter offer.
It's an insult if you take the offer. The company obviously believes that you are worth the extra money which is why they extending the counter-offer. But the question is: If you were worth that amount of money to begin with, then why weren't they paying you that amount? If they really wanted to keep you, then they should have been paying you what you were worth to begin with, not wait for you to go off looking and find out what you are really worth and then try to make it up to you.
:-)
If I were you, I'd be out of there in a second. You've got a chance to make a fresh start earning what you are worth. You won't have any problems with questions of loyalty and you won't be passed over for raises in the near future because you didn't just get a 50% "raise".
Good luck!
The only thing that will stop you from fulfilling your dreams is you. - Tom Bradley
At my last job, I was extended and accepted a counter-offer when I was out looking for a job. The key is to be honest with everyone involved, including yourself. Before you step out the door (or onto DICE.COM) consider why you are looking for a new job and what would resolve the problem you are trying to address. Is it just money? Then a counteroffer should be in your considerations. Is it appreciation, management style, duties, etc.? Then maybe not. Then once you have decided the options, be sure to tell your recruiter and/or interviewer that you plan to entertain counteroffers from your current employer. They will let you know how that sits with them - some will decide then and there NOT to extend an offer because they want you definitely; others will be encouraged because it means you will extend THEM the same courtesy when/if you decide to leave their employ. This can work out for both sides.
My first time looking for a new job, a counteroffer was possible. My reasons for leaving were general dissatisfaction and lack of appreciation. I got an offer, came to my boss and laid all the cards on the table. He agreed to match the offer AND to address my other issues. The company improved and I got paid better. Next time around, my reasons for leaving were lost trust in a different manager and a belief that they were phasing out my department. This time, the counteroffer was again extended, but it was never an issue. I refused and am happily at the new job.
The new job has a *starting salary* of X. You will get more than that there soon after you start.
Your current job is willing to give you a *raise* up to X. And you already know that they don't want to pay you that much, so it'll be a long time before you get more than that. They think they're doing you a favor-- when they're really just doing themselves a favor.
In the new job, you'll most likely get a raise in 3-6 months after you prove yourself. A year tops...
"If they gave a damn about you, why didn't they pay you more before?"
Waiting for a company to treat you "fair" is ludicrous. They're there to make money! This means minimizing expenses!
They won't help you over the long haul, they won't sacrifice their own goals/profits just to make you happy. They're not your friend. And they probably won't be around in 5 years anyway.
It's an inherently antagonistic relationship. Get all you can, and then get out.
Yes, you'll probably leave sooner rather than later even if you take the counter-offer. Just by forcing the issue you're showing you'll probably leave anyway, since going to a new job is the main way to make more money. So any "survey" that tries to show taking a counter-offer is the *cause* of people leaving afterward is stupid -- it depends on who it is.
And if they give you a counter offer in the first place, you're valuable enough to not be a complete wage slave. Take advantage of it while you can!
Why not stay 6 more months at a higher salary, then move again to an even *higher* salary?
IMO its all in how you present the situation to your current employer and then how the employer reacts. By presentation, I mean how is it you got the offer in the first place. Consider these two senarios: 1. You enter your bosses office and say "Hi Joe, I was out looking for a job last week and came across an identical postion for a 50% higher salary." In this presentation your boss will most likely think of all the negative things listed in the previous /. posts. He may propose a counter-offer to save him from looking for a new guy, but you will most likely be blacklisted in his mind.
2. You enter your bosses office and say "Hi Joe, I need to discuss something with you. I was out with some friends the other day and I met someone who asked what I did for a living so we got to talking. He mentioned that he could use a guy like me and gave me a ballpark salary figure 50% higher than my current income and I'd be doing the same as I do here. It's really been tearing at me for the last few days, because I really do like it here and wouldn't want to hassle you guys with a missing man but at the same time the money is too good to pass up. You know how it is?"
In this presentation you have shown loyalty to your company, ambition for a better life, and you've sounded sincere. Now, wether or not this senario sums up the reality of the situation, its playing the field in your favor. So what if you were actively looking for new work, business is a game of chess, and in chess you don't tell an opponent what you next 5 moves are, simple as that.
After that, of course, it all depends on your employers reaction and if he counter offers. But using scenario 2 will provide better results and your "honesty"/loyalty will stay in the mind of the employer. If an employer does propose the counter offer, make sure to discuss what this holds for the future. Be upfront and make sure that you aren't screwing your self into an early raise or out of certain other benifits by accepting the offer. If you do this right you'll show how serious you are about your position, while showing that even though you "weaseled" for more money you are still concerned about a long term future with the company.
Hope this helps you out. :)
Some managers may actually be genuine in matching the offer and hoping that you'll stay on. They already have a proven resource, and the time and expense of replacing you justifies giving you the raise.
Other management however, is going to see it as a breech of trust. Any offer they make will only be to keep you happy long enough to find a suitable replacement.
So I guess the real question is, what is your relationship with management like? Have you seen how they have dealt with others in your company in this situation in the past?
Those should be the factors you weigh when considering this counter-offer.
you've obviously been seriously shafted the whole time you've been working for them, and they know they've been shafting you. Don't accept their counter-offer unless they're willing to make it retroactive for at least several months. And don't be suprised in two weeks when your boss tells you, "This is Hank. He's going to be helping out for a while. Train him on every thing you do."
If they need you badly enough to make the counter-offer, see if they need you enough to write a nice contract. If they won't do it, then they were prolly up to no good, and likely to lay you off once your current contract was done.
However, I should point out that I've done this repeatedly throughout my career (brought job offers to my current employers) because I don't think it's fair to run off without explanation. I won't work for anyone I don't have at least that much respect for, basically.
I've never bothered to ask for such a contract, and I've never been burned (three different employers, five or six times through the offer/counter-offer/counter-counter-offer/etc cycle) but it seems like a good idea to me.
The original poster just went about it the wrong way in my opinion. It's like auto-insurance. Some people aren't happy with what they've got, but instead of trying to work it out, they first start shopping elsewhere and only "break the news" when they're ready to leave.
If you come straight out and say you think you deserve a little more, the company may not be as likely to respond favorably, but they also won't treat you like an employee that will be ready to bolt at the first sign of a marginally better prospect. Loyalty may be a lost thing to the big corporations, but it does make a difference to your immediate superiors, and generally they're the ones that have the say in whether you do get that raise or promotion.
But hell, if they turn you down, by all means shop around. Personally, I'm always on the look-out, but it's got to be significantly better than what I have before I'd entertain actually leaving.
the only way to truly find you out your value at your place of work is to resign. if you employer truly values you, they will act(if they are able to).
1) You stated you were happy at your current job. The powers that be aren't going to spend money extending you a raise when they have every reason to assume that you are happy in the first place. Job offers also amazingly often come around when company-wide raises are not being handed out, so perhaps that raise was en route anyways. 2) Who knows, if you would have asked for a raise you very well may have gotten it. 3) I have my suspicions that the very list pointed out in your post may have been originally generated by a headhunter-recruiter type organization. They are notorious for pushing that "Never-accept-a-counter-offer" propaganda around the web. Counter-offers are legitamate, standard business practices, and the fact that you have one doesn't downplay your organization's respect for you, and in fact likely further enhances it. I'd say go for it. If you are in fact happy, stay.
Now I might be a bad example. I've never considered leaving a job because of salary. Anytime I've left a company it's been about corporate culture or moving to an opportunity where I can expand or better utilize my skills. No amount of money can make up for those things IMHO. If I have a position where I enjoy what I'm doing, am working with good, smart people who have a positive attitude and am making enough money to support myself and my family in the life style we want to live ... why would I want to change jobs?
I feel if you stick around you would be branded as the "greedy" one. I have had expiriences where someone got an increase as a counter offer and was then passed up at the next couple of review/ stock option/ bonus cycles because "he got his already".
Most companies I have worked with tend to counter offer an employee as insurance. They'll then make sure that there is someone available to fill his shoes and will let him go at the next layoff/ review.
Sean.OutaHere()
It's your duty to work hard enough to not get fired.
It's the company's duty to pay you enough to not quit.
As soon as the balance is tipped, a change happens, and the balance can reset.
Zen.
I don't want to be here.
It's not just about getting paid more.... I've had jobs that pay me 4x what my current job is, but I did not enjoy them like I do my current one.
;-)
I don't care if people read this next comment as hokey, it's something I beleive in: I think the key is to find the perfect balance between surviving financially (making money) and surviving emotionally (enjoying where you work and what you do).
Before and shortly after the bubble-burst, I was working at a rather large company (very large company) doing a job that was particularily enjoyable for me (cross-platform development). I made very good money there. I even enjoyed my coworkers... they were friends and people I liked. However, there were two big problems- 1) I didn't like where this job made me live.. it made me live away from my wife for months on end and 2) I didn't like the management in the company I worked at (they made some pretty horrendously stupid decisions on technical matters based upon the decisions of lawyers rather than engineers).
My current job pays a lot less, but it is soooo much more enjoyable. It might not be quite as challenging (mostly system administration with minor development here and there) but the work environment is much more enjoyable. I like my boss and my coworkers, I consider them good friends. I like the other people I work with (the people I manage systems for), and I like where I live. Plus, my bene's are a tad better (granted, I'm now a state employee, so we tend to get pretty good benefits anyway
My advice is to look at where you do and would work in both situations, who you'd work with, and add that into the decision. If it turns out that you really like working where you are currently working, and you like who you work with, than I'd say stay. If the other option has more potential, then go for it instead.
You've accepted an offer. Now you want to reneg? It's a small world. People at the company that you were leaving for will know you are a liar and the people at the company you are currently at will think you untrustworthy. It will come back to haunt you if you stay. I know, I've seen it.
But, it's your call.
... and I can tell you from experience that when a company makes you a counter-offer, they are only biding their time before replacing you. If the original offer you received is so much more than what you were making and the company wants to match, you've just screwed up their pay scale. Also, unless you were well-loved by your superiors and/or indispensable, you're now considered untrustworthy and thought to be ready to bolt at anytime.
Get over yourself.
There's the "employer was using you" crowd
There's the "disloyal fsck" crowd
There's the "moral high horse" crowd
There's the "take what you can get" crowd
Not so suprising is the amount of bitterness being shown. The dot-com bust must have hit the audience here hard.
There's little real advice being given here. I can't give any either, but I can tell you my story.
I worked for a large defense contractor. This job was quite hard, involved lots of travel, and I averaged 80+ hours a week (up to 120 hours at times). But, the job was fun too. After the crunch in the contract schedule, there was still a bit of travel, and the hours dropped to 60 or so a week. I was busy, but getting tired. I looked around at other employers and got an offer that involved no travel, little or no overtime, and as their best-and-final offer, a modest increase over my current salary.
When I went to give notice to my boss, I was told to hold off and listen for a counter-offer. I agreed to wait and was later offered a substantial increase over what even the other company offered, much less travel and overtime, and a retention bonus payable in one year. I turned down the employment offer from the new company, and their best-and-final offer was suddenly up for renegotiation. I told the company's representative I would not listen to any counter-counter offers, and I was turning down the employment offer. I stayed because I liked the job/coworkers.
Fast forward five months. The contract is causing the company to bleed, and the contract is likely to be scaled back or cancelled. A proposed merger is causing engineers to start leaving in droves. My contact at the other company has them make yet another offer, besting my current salary. Seeing the writing on the wall, I submitted my resignation. I was again asked to stay and renegotiate my salary. I refused to entertain my employer's counter-offer (pointing out to the HR person what happened 5 months earlier) and forfeited the upcoming retention bonus.
I am now at the new company, and after getting over the "corporate culture shock" all is well.
My old company? The merger was approved, the contract cancelled, and my former coworkers reassigned/scattered/laid off.
I tried every decent and legal way I could think of to resolve the issue w/the business before I rented the chicken suit
It is not right or wrong. It is simply up to you to decide what it is that is best for you in your situation. They made the offer because they want to keep you.
It is then up to you to decide which you want. If you feel you can stay in your current position and continue to do your job well, no bad blood, etcetera, then do so.
If you feel a change of jobs would do you good, change.
Just keep in mind when it comes to hiring... a company that can woo you with money can quickly dump you as well.
The first thing that they will tell you is that they are here to make money for their shareholders. That's fine, but then they start whining about how unloyal are the new employees, yada, yada, job-hopping, yada, yada.
Basically, the corporations are looking for loyal whores, the art of the war is to turn them into ones. Go to training as much as you can, get certified and if they don't appreciate you knowledge and developement - dump them
Take time to compare the offers, don't forget that there is always something new to learn on the new job. Think twice before you accept a counter-offer, especially if they know you took a pay-cut and didn't complain about it too much, and didn't leave the company then. What's gonna prevent them from making you another pay cut let's say 2 months from now?
they have you where they want you
I was offered a job during the dot-com daze ... paid something like 2x what I was making at a 'boring' embedded-type systems job. I was offered a counter offer, and accepted - but not based on the $$ - just based on the balance of the two opportunities. The dot-com looked exciting (and are actually still around in a smaller form), and the 'systems' job was solid (though a bit boring at times). Why did I take the counter offer? For me, it was stability. I knew that the boring job would be around in 5 years (which it was), and that the dot-com might not.
Now, I would say that asking for a counter-offer is somewhat shady. I mentioned to my boss that I was leaving, and they rushed to counter-offer ... but the whole effort smelled foul. Something about having to threaten to leave before getting a raise just doesn't feel right. Oddly enough, some years later I can see that I'll not really see the $$ I can get elsewhere without another such mgt jolt.
I don't think I'd accept a counter offer again either, one chance is really enough. If my employer still can't move with the industry after being shown once of their folly (while still claiming to respect my value to the company) then I suspect they really only are avoiding having to fill my seat with another warm body. That's not respect.
mx
Lots of people have made a lot of good points, but most of them amount to being just single factors out of a whole bunch of relevant factors. For example, the idea that having proved your disloyalty will necessarily lead to your being laid off: hooey! My boss advises me to test the waters of the job market, and keep my resume updated at all times. He feels he pays fairly, and wants us to think so too. A competing offer would be proof that he was wrong, and he would have to adjust his scale accordingly. But not everyone has a boss like me. Do you have a vindictive boss? Are you an asshole? If so, don't risk it. Do you have a lot of good office-karma to spread around? If so, take that counter-offer.
My mentor at my current job has been here 15 years. Five years ago, he was offered a job at another place for 50% more. This company beat the offer by 10%, everybody knows about it, and everybody thinks it's a good thing.
And to everyone who says "f*ck that employer for not paying you more in the first place"... Oh my god, grow up! You are worth what you can get someone to pay you. It's not their responsibility to look out for your interests, it's yours! In America, capitalism != not valuing employees or assholishness; capitalism = realism.
Not every company is going to see it that way. If your is one of these commie-hippie-mommy-it's-not-fair types, he/she might be hurt by your looking out for your own interests and you may be screwed.
So the moral of the story is, figure out your boss before you decide to take a counter-offer or not. If you see resentment when you're given a counter-offer, run! Otherwise, do what seems better.
if you were willing to leave, then leave.
now they know that you are willing to leave and you will end up leaving soon enough anyway, and until then they will have this different opinion of you.
I used to work at a consulting place, I got an offer from another place and my company offered me more to stay. so I was there a bit longer.
then relatively soon after I found another one for more money and just left.
once you have it in your head that you can leave, you will.
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
When several people left my last job (prior to me leaving ;-) ) the boss and I had a chat about this. His opinion was that he would never counter-offer someone... if they were unhappy, it would just buy them a few months before you left for real... and now you can tell the prospective future employer that you are making $1.5X instead of your current salary, with the expectation of getting another couple $k a year at the next job.
;-)
That said, my former company took great care of us financially. The hours sucked... but after 4 months, two of which were 60-80 hours on a big project (completed on time, under budget), I received a 10% raise (after getting 10% over my previous job just walking in the door). Six months later, they made me a "team leader" to the tune of another 17%. Unfortunately, they were also a ".Com" and started heading downhill fast.
My previous job to that... if you busted your ass all year you'd get 3.1% raise, if you did nothing all year you'd get 3.0% raise. Whoopee.. My current job, perhaps more "results" based, but to the tune of a maximum 3.5% raise. I've been here a little over a year, and have done some cursory "looking" - nothing serious yet, just watching the market.. but if the right thing comes along...
My opinion.. if you were *that* valuable to the company that they don't want to lose you, then why did they not reward you along the way? And if they are suddenly willing to give you 50% more, thats bascially the equivalent of saying "we really don't want to pay you what you are worth".
And, yes.. just wait, they'll find some other sucker who they can get to work your job for less than it is worth, hire him and fire you.
Me... if some other company is willing to pay me 50% more for my services.. then *obviously* they think that I will add that amount of *value* to their workforce. And, just as obviously, my current job was just out to get my talents as cheap as possible.
I was in the position of having one of my employees come up with the "I would really like to stay but this other company wants to pay me so much more" story end of october last year. Well, the guy was critical for the project at this time, and was doing a pretty good job, so I was really willing to give him a little more. He demanded a pretty high "little more", though - something we thought he was not worth. So we signed in. I had him prepare the documentation with our office manager which he simply never did (really - we were willing to delay this for a week to save off his higher pay for a month - it was end of the month - but he managed not to turn up for the new contracts for two months). So what happened is that he got fired 22nd of december, just in time to end his working contract end of the year, and with his end holidays EXACTLY matching the rest of the month's work days. Sure his other company had another guy by then. Point is - you dont demand a higher salary in a project being critical and put another company onto the table as leverage. Put the market there (average pay, prooven by an independant newspaper or so), and be reasonable. But never accept counter offers. Propably you are just not replacable fast enough. THONA
Did you ever ask for a raise or express that you were less than happy with your current salary to your current employer? If so, did they ignore you or blow you off? If that is the case, I'd be a little more concerned about their counter-offer.
On the other hand, if you never have asked for a raise, how is your employer supposed to know you felt underpaid? A business isn't a charity. They aren't going to simply hand you a 50% raise out of the blue if you seem to be happy with (i.e. quiet about) your current situation. For all you know, they might have been willing to give you a similar raise if you had simply asked.
DennyK
When you go to your current boss, don't tell them you have been offered a job somewhere else, just ask for a raise. That way you get an idea about how valuable you are without them knowing for sure if you've shopping around....
However whenever I've left a job it was because I was unhappy with the *job* and I really didn't have any faith that all the wonderful changes they promised would actually come to pass. One other point . . . be aware that some companies/managers REMEMBER that you turned them down for this reason - - it can be viewed as an indication that you were NOT serious, you were just using them to pry some bucks out of your current employer, you were window-shopping, etc. If you work in a single metropolitan area for long periods of time you'd be surprised how word gets around. I'm not trying to freak you out - - it's not the end of the world - - just a factor to consider along with all the other comments.
A guaranteed severence package so that if they let you go within 1 year, you will get at least 6 months severence. If they don't off that with the pay increase, you should walk.
That is the only way to protect yourself. Everything in that list of 10 things is DEAD ON. It happens all the time. I agree that there are many good companies that don't do that kinda crap but more often than not they do.
There is nothing inherently safe about liberty. That's why so many people died protecting it.
Look, the best way to do this is to think about things before just spilling the news. If you just say to your boss, "Hey I'm leaving, because I found a better job," he's going to make a counter-offer, and you're basically gonna get played.
When you find a better offer from another company, then go to you boss and say, "I've been performing well as an employee, and I think it's time I had a raise." If he says no, then he either (1) doesn't value your worth as much as he ought to or (2) isn't willing to pay you for what your worth, and it's time to go for the better offer and definitively resign from your old company.
Of course, if your employer says yes, then you've achieved a raise and aroused no suspicion of disloyalty.
Because the jobs were in different areas of the state the counter offer was actually worth quite a bit more but by moving companies I got to move from a support type job to design.
Sig is on vacation
Ask for a raise, not saying you'd got an offer from another company.
If they refuse to give you a rise - show your cards!
I've read a lot of insightful posts here about this topic but I think one thing that's missing from a lot of them is what you think about the long-term prospects of each company. You've already said that you took a big pay cut due to the dot-com bubble bursting. I'm assuming that all your co-workers got pay cuts, too. If they didn't, then you need to jump ship. But that's obvious. What you didn't really mention is whether the alternate company is also a dot-com. Are they also in bad shape? How much has their stock price dropped compared to your company? Have you talked with employees of your potential new employeer? Are they happy? Have they taken a big pay cut?
If the company likes you enough to match the offer, and you are otherwise happy where you are, take it.
I think you need to seriously think about the and you are otherwise happy where you are part of this guy's response. And don't just accept your old employeer because it's comfortable and easy to do (don't have to move, etc.). Give serious thought as to whether you think your company is going to survive the dot-com burst. And whether you think they'll keep most of the employees they have when/if they do rebound.
GMD
watch this
I'd never accept a counteroffer. I've seen too many folks get burned - they're generally kept until the project they're on is complete then either fired or never given a good assignment again. I had a friend do this, then there was a downturn in the industry. He got every crap job that came along, no raises or promotions, and there was nothing he could do about it because nobody was hiring. After the job market picked up it was years before he got another offer because his resume was now a piece of toilet paper!
Also, if you renege word does get around. I will stick with the deal I made on an interview, though I will tell the new company about changes in circumstances.
I once had an interview, liked the job, and we set a tentative price. When I got back to work my boss called me in -- he'd wrangled an early performance raise (3 months early & more than I had expected) plus an additional raise as a retention inducement. I was now making just $1 a year less than what I'd told the new place I'd work for.
At this point I was going to make the move anyway, I had made the deal and intended to stick to it, though I'd certainly tell them what had changed. The new folks called -- they'd verified my credentials, made the offer we agreed on. I told the personel worker bee what had happenned and as I was about to accept she slammed the phone down! I called her boss -- told him what happenned. He asked when I'd start -- I told him that his employee's behavior absolved my concience & I wouldn't want to work for them.
Nearly 10 years later I had a great phone interview with the same company, but in another state. At the end of the interview they all but offerred me the job. I never heard back. It took a couple of phone calls before anybody would talk to me -- I was told that they had a black-list. If you ever turned down an offer you were put on the black-list and nobody, in any division, was allowed to hire you. Employees who quit were also put on the list.
BTW: The company went down the tubes long ago.
Exercise for the student: Why did this company go out of business?
"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." --Napoleon Bonaparte
Living in Milwaukee, working in Chicago isin't out of the question for alot of people, and when I was talking to a friend day, he told his manager about me and he immediatley made an offer that would have paid twice as much as I was making at the time, but would require the MilwaukeeChicago commute daily, which honestly was not acceptible to me. So, I discussed the situation with my employer, and they came half way, which is all I really needed to begin with.
Lots of things here are on shaky ground all times, so I can't really say one way or the other if its a good thing or a bad thing how it worked out, but it's nearly 6 months later, and I'm still working here, with things getting better every day from my point of view.
Underpayment is a sign of bad people management. Bad management will not turn into good management over night. Hence histroy will definately repeat itself.
IMHO changing is always a positive thing. It forces your mind to deal with again a new reality, thus improving your social job skills which as a techy may not be your strongest asset.
Should you stay then let your current employer outbid your prospect.
All the luck!
I agree with their thoughts on counter-offers. My suggestion is once you get an offer, go to your boss and ask for a raise for that amount. If you get it, great. If not, go with the other job.
If you get the raise, everything's fine. If not, your employer will know that he couldn't afford to keep a talented employee like you and will know in the future that everyone *but* him knew how valuable you were.
Maybe you come back in a year and you're pulling twice his salary.
I worked with a guy three years ago who was "Lord of the Counter-Offer".
:)
He'd go off and interview somewhere, get an offer, our boss would offer more money, he'd stay.
He did this three times in as many months. Needless to say, the rest of us were p-o'd when we found out he was staying the third time. Especially since he wasn't that good anyway. So we went to the boss with our concerns and he finally saw the light. He told us that if we found out that the guy was looking again, to let him know.
So the next morning the guy responds to a job offer sent to a developer's list to which we all subscribed. He replied to the list, not the recruiter.
And was walked out 30 minutes later.
The guy's rep is so bad now, he has to send out resumes using his middle name.
I did the same thing in November of 2000. I was making $40,000 a year at my current position. A recruiter called and set up an interview with another company. I was offered the job starting at $57,000 with the possibility of going to $60,000 after six months. I told my employer I was taking the new job. They asked me what it would take to keep me, I told them $70,000 a year, and they gave it to me. A 75% raise!!
Things have been great since then, and in fact last year I was rated above average, which means I get a larger than usual raise this year!!
Could just be my company, but I like to think it was me!:-)
One
You owe it to yourself and your dependants to take the best offer, but best is not simply highest salary.
The reasons stated on the web site are FUD.
I have both accepted and rejected counters in the past and have managed to engender no perceivable ill will in either case.
Many postings seem to fault the current employer for not paying the employee what he/she is "worth". This seems a bit narrow-minded...an employers perception of the worth of an employee is the minimum compensation required to get that employee to be productive each working day. Therefore, paying the employee what he/she is "worth" is entirely up to the employee. If you can raise your "worth" through new jobs and/or counter-offers, it is a great way to increase your worth. Another point is that the rate at which your worth increases usually is correlated to the amount of job switching done.
When it comes down to it, only you know the corporate culture in which you work. Ultimately, your boss is either your friend or a businessman. There are bosses that actually care about their employees and their well-being; there are some bosses that do a "spring cleaning" every year to get rid of people that are too expensive or otherwise not earning their pay. When it comes down to it, only you know the culture you work in and whether it would be wise to stay or go.
"If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards."
When i left my last job, my manager was just bursting to tell me about the counter-offer his boss had approved. They really wanted me to stay- the people i was leaving to take over my job were truly clueless.
For me, there were many more reasons to leave than the money. I'd been there ~3 years, with almost no new challenges and nowhere to go within the company. The work was boring and the management clueless (especially my manager who thought he had a chance to buy me off...).
When he brought up the counter-offer, i declined to even meet about it and left very happily unaware of their offer. My new job only paid a little more than the old one, so the counter-offer would surely have been more money. So what did i gain?
I have a much better work atmosphere, great manager, clued-in top management, interesting and challenging work, much more flexibility, and most importantly, room to grow. In short, there was a lot more gained than a couple of bucks.
I made this job change a week before i got married, we were looking to buy a house and start a family (both of which we have done since). The stress of making the decision at the time has been more than made up for in the reduced stress since then. Oh, and i've gotten a promotion and 2 very nice raises in the 2.5 years i've been here too.
because while you are trying to decide, there's a very good chance your current employer is window shopping for someone else.
I've accepted counter offers before. Remember that you are the only one who knows your employer well enough to decide if they will still trust you, value you as a team member, etc. Anyone else here is just offering personal opinions.
Go with your gut on this one.
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage 4.0">
Good start :)
You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
Your boss knows you're not working for the bandwidth and his blue eyes. So does mine. I'm loyal, but I'll quit if someone else has a serious offer with a 50% salary increase.
When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.
When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
If my employer is satisfied with my work and wants to keep working with me, he'll treat me in a fair way when "promotion time comes around" or "times get tough". Otherwise he knows I'll start considering counteroffers.
Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
This one made me laugh. Accepting a counteroffer is a compliment to your intelligence; it means you're worth more than what you were getting until now.
[...]
Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price.
In my opinion, that's not your problem. They probably won't find someone much cheaper anyways. If someone offers you to work for them at a higher price, it means they can't find someone cheap on the market.
[...]
The list goes on, the other reasons are factors you should consider, but certainly not good enough to stop you from considering an interesting counteroffer. If the counteroffer's guidelines are more advantageous, why not switch?
Just make sure your employer doesn't get a bad surprise, remember that it is probably a bad idea to mention who made you a counteroffer.
Trollem mirabilem hanc subnotationis exigiutas non caperet
You will *never* have an employer who "cares about you".
That's what your mother is for. If you have a dog, your dog cares about you too when he's hungry.
And what's this stuff about "breaking your word"?
This is all business, pure and simple. Employer/employee 'relationships' are business relationships, nothing more. They pay you to work, you work. Period. Why are you trying to treat your employer like they're your old friend or part of your extended family?
You sound like a victim.
Employment is about only 1 thing: getting the most money for the [least pain/most happiness]. Nothing more. Exactly where that point is will vary for each person but get rid of these childish notions of loyalty and word breaking and caring.
Sigh....
In today's Corporate America, the only loyalty upper management has is to the Almighty Buck. Why should it be any different for the laborers? If you are valuable to the company, you will get paid. If you are not, it doesn't matter whether you accept a counter-offer or not, because you could be replaced by someone with the "same" skills that will work for cheaper at any time.
As for asking for the counter-offering employer to sign a labor contract, good luck with that! IMHO, that could cause them to retract their counter-offer and say, "Hit the road."
If you don't ask for a REAL raise, you won't get one, unless you are horribly underpaid in the first place.
All Your Memory Are Belong To Java
At my former job I was happy with the work, but unhappy with the pay. I found another job for more pay, but I accepted the counter-offer of a pay increase. I never saw another pay increase after that.
Then the economy collaped.
I was stuck. The job got worst. Finally, I found a good position with a slight increase in pay.
I went into my boss and gave him my resignation. He freaked, and asked me if there was *any* way he could keep me. I firmly told him "No".
The customers freaked, my fellow employees freaked; It was total chaos.
Needless to say, I started my new job and I've had a great time here. Also, in 6 years I've tripled my salary! I good boss will do this for you!
Basically I'm saying; When it is time to go, it is time to go. Leave. Don't stay. If you are not getting what you are worth, then find a place that will pay you what you are worth. Trust me, if your current employer could get someone to do your job for $10 less a month, you'd be out the door tomorrow. Be professional, but go.
Dosboy's Counter Offer Rule of Thumb:
Only accept a counter-offer if:
0. Your employer is a large corporation
1. You move you to a different department
2. You won't report to the old boss
2. The new department applies a different payscale
3. The new job is more challenging
No gods, no masters
Some thoughts from a geek who worked in HR, and has dabbled around the edges of management:
First things first: there are few rules in HR that can't be broken.
Second things second: the page you refrenced is from a professional pimp. Of course they are going to advise agasint accepting counter offers. Not only does that screw them out of their commission, but it will sour their relationship with their customer (You ain't the customer in this market; you are the product).
Third things third: I'm guessing your current employer lowered your pay because they couldn't afford to keep you at your current pay rate, but they still wanted to retain your knowledge and skills. Unless the situation at your company has radicaly improved, they most likely still can't afford you. If I was in your manager's position and you accepted the counter-offer, I would hire your replacement, have you train your repalcement, then let you go.
Of course, what the hell do I know about the specifics of your situation? My only advice to you is to ignore eventhing that I wrote above and seek advice from someone (other then your pimp) that you know and trust.
The welfare of the people has always been the alibi of tyrants. - Albert Camus
Several years ago I worked for a company and just loved it. The problem was that I was grossly underpaid. I finally decided that I needed to make more $$$ and I got an offer from another company. I presented the offer to my employer, and my immediate supervisor worked an entire weekend to put together a good counter. I stayed for several more months, and eventually left for other reasons. Two years after I left, the company approached me and asked me to come back to them again! There was no backlash for me on that one.
All that said, not all companies are as cool as that. I have seen other companies promptly offer a severance to "get the hell of out here right now". Either way, you win. I would definitely give your employer a shot at a counter, you can't really lose if everything is in writing.
Your boss would come to you and say, "We interviewed someone who will do you job for %50 lower pay. Can you take a pay cut?" Whether you say yes or no, you would be looking for another job.
word.
Did you tell the company that made you the offer that you accepted it? Is your word good, or isn't it?
Now, if you haven't accepted the original offer yet, merely told your current employer that you have one, then it seems to me that you have room to choose. But if you took the offer, you took the offer.
Having a reputation as an honest person can give you some serious cred sometimes...
First I had to read the 10 Reasons. What a laugh. I gues no one knows that head hunters don't get paid if the recruitee stays with his old employer. If you read those reasons from the point of view of an employer, and I have employed many people in my life, they look pretty thin indeed.
Now read them again from the perspective of a head hunter. Are you sure this list wasn't copied off the back of some recruiters contract? It is a FUD list for making sure you will jump ship.
In this guys case, his old employer had only employed him for a few months, not enough time for a full review cycle. The budget may have been tight when they hired him, or perhaps they were not entirely sure of his skills at the time of hire. Once he was in the groove at work the management may have had other things to do than double check the salary of one employee after a very few months of employment. Once prodded, management realises that they can afford the more realistic salary or he really exceeded expectations.
Give this guy a break and let him make his choice based on his situation, not on a load of suspect homilies.
Most of the "10 reasons" are complete BS. I wonder who wrote this crap? The HR department of some sweatshop?
...Employer aware that you are unhappy...
/is/ true that when tough times come around, if an employer has to chose someone to let go and there are two roughly equal performers doing similar work, then the one with the higher salary will be let go. This a good argument for always taking the lowest possible salary... NOT!
/will/ be under somewhat greater scrutiny. Your boss may think more about whether you were worth it... so you have to think about how satisfied your employer is with you and whether you'll be able to keep up that level of satisfaction.
As a manager in the Silicon Valley I can assure you that counter-offers and accepting them are an accepted practice and noone will think the worse of you for doing so.
Let me debunk the 10 reasons 1 by 1, then I'll mention some REAL reasons to think twice.
1)
Well, they are only aware that you're unhappy about pay, and that's about to be fixed.
2) When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.
Total BS. First of all everyone knows and accepts that the buck rules, especially in the US. Loyalty means very little in the job market... if someone makes you an offer for significantly more money, then noone in the US would consider it "disloyal" to take that.
3) When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
Depends. It
4) Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
Huh? Ok, maybe if in the job that you're staying at you're forced to do dirty work or something...
5) All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed.
More BS. Guidelines are guidelines... All companies know that having good people is the most important thing. If it takes more money to have/keep good people then that's what it takes. Also there's significant expense in recruiting to fill the spot you'd vacate.
6) Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price.
Unlikely. With you they know what they've got... hiring is always hit or miss, no matter how hard you work at interviewing, reference checking, etc., you might hire someone who is useless. Plus you have the domain expertise, so how can they do a good job at hiring for your position without you being part of the interview process?
7) The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
This only means that you should think about whether you'd really like to stay. True, you should.
8) Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
Lies, damned lies, and statistics. Statistics say nothing about your specific situtation. See previous point.
9) Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
This has some validity, see below.
10) What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
A frugal one?
Ok, now the real issues...
A) If you have peers who are paid at a similar level to your pre-counter-offer salary, this does present a problem. If the word gets out, they will resent you. It is generally true, also in taking a new job, that you should try not to be out of line in terms of salary with peers who do similar work, have similar experience, etc. Depending on a number of factors "out of line" would i.e. a difference of more than 20%. But the factors are complex, because salary history matters a lot... you might have drawn a much higher salary at previous jobs than a collegue with otherwise similar experience. Still, employers should then bite the bullet and bring the lower-paid people up some to reduce the difference.
B) Chances are that if you take a big counter-offer you
So, to conclude, forget what other people say... think about your specific situation with regard to the above two points and with regard to whether you feel that you'll be happy at the current company for some time to come... and if so, by all means take the counter-offer, and while you don't need to tell the company that extended the initial offer why you're not taking it, if they have any integrity they won't hold it against you even if you do tell them that you took a counter-offer.
It all depends on how you handle the situation...if you go to your boss and say, "I've got an offer from company X where I'll be making $Y, match it or you lose me," then don't expect good treatment further on down the road.
If you say to your boss, "I like this company and the team I'm working with, but I just have to put my own career in front some times," more than likely you'll save face.
"The market alone cannot provide sufficient constraints on corporation's penchant to cause harm." -- Joel Bakan
Any employer will pay you as little as possible. Its just as simple as that. The only reason for paying more is getting more satisfied (and better) employees.
You need a way to show your employer that you are worth more than he is paying you. A straight forward way of doing that is to show him what someone else is willing to pay you more.
He'll have to decide if he can match it. If he says he can do it, of course you'll accept it. Thats the only reason for asking him!
If your employer thinks you are disloyal because you think he should pay you what you are worth...well...then you should think of finding a new job anyway.
My time and knowledge are valuable commodities. If an employer wants my expertise, they can pay for it.
Just as business today have no problems with mergers or acquisitions, I have absolutely no qualms about holding my expertise out for the highest bidder.
I have gone into job interviews and have been able to hike my salary a couple of K before I even accepted the job, simply by mentioning that I would also be interviewing at the company's competitor.
Your company's owners typically became successful be being somewhat cutthroat, no reason you shouldn't either.
And as far as what your co-workers think of your wheeling and dealing, who gives a shit?! You don't work for them, you work for YOURSELF.
From the hiring managers point of view:
I will rarely if ever extend a counter offer.
The employee was out looking for some reason. If he said its not about the money, it is about the money, and there is always another job for 5 bucks more. If it is about job quality/environment, these things changes slowly and money won't fix that only time will. The empoyee will still be unhappy.
The only exeception is a critical employee, that I cannot afford to lose in the next sixty days. I say sixty days because generally I believe the employee will end up leaving anyways, for the aforementioned reasons.
Finally, I do not like to be held hostage over compensation, word will get out. Then I have a greater problem on my hands.
I have learned that my best package for an employee is good/intreseting work, good tools/environment, good leadership at fair pay.
As an employee:
I have a rule:
Don't open the door unless your are prepared to leave.
Yes that means even if a recruiter calls me. If I have opened the door, it is rarely about money. If it is about money, I have gone to my boss long ago and set salary/raise expectations so that it is not a surprise to anyone. I know what I am worth. It is part of my job as an employee to be an active member of the compensation process. If I have done this and they counter offer after I tender my resignation it is too late.
If it is not about money (quality work, quality of life, career, etc) added money will not address these issues.
What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
All the other 9 reasons are subjective, fuzzy, and possibly bogus. This last reason, however, hits home so very much. If you work for a company that fails to pay you what you are with, aside from the one-time adjustment, how do you know it will change, going forward? And is it just you, or do they treat everyone that way?
If you aren't given a good enough assurance that you'll be fairly compensated, then you really should question staying where you are.
I've been on both sides of this equation.
.02, no refunds).
Let's break this down. It's a business transaction between you and your employer. Your employer is purchasing, on an ongoing basis, the sum of your talent and time. It's very reasonable for you to be searching out the best buyer for your commodity. How's your business relationship with your current business partner (employer)? Is it one based on trust, or mistrust?
If your customer (employer) feels like they've been getting a really good deal up until now, and you're really worth the added $$, no problem. If they think they've been compensating you fairly, and now you're trying to rip them off, Danger Will Robinson, DANGER!
I'm a very "B" type personality, I get along with almost everybody. I've not experienced the personality conflicts that a lot of people here have posted. If that situation exists in your workplace it will only be inflated by accepting this counter. If, on the other hand, you have an excellent relationship with your boss (as I do), you're phat city.
Take it for what it's worth (approx
We all get along together like tornadoes and trailer parks.
There are several types of bias at work here:
1) Any company that focuses on job search advice, recruiting, etc. gets paid when you switch jobs. If you stay at your job, they *lose* money (or effectiveness stats) they'd otherwise have made.
2) What makes a person post a web page (or even a reply in a thread)? Generally, a a bad experience is more motivating than a good experience. It gives the author a chance to vent.
2a) After a year or two, a person who stays is likely to have largely forgotten their decision if all goes well. A person who left for another job or had a bad experience with staying is more likely to think of that moment as a discrete turning point. You don't hear all the 'fat dumb and happy' cases - and 'fat dumb and happy' isn't a bad thing to be.
3) There's a selection bias in your choice of search terms. A person who is offered more money and stays will think of their situation in different words than a person who received identical offers and left. You yourself may have heard dozens of casual offers in the three years you were with your present company, but they passed forgotten. If you'd acted on one, that one offer would seem much more significant.
4) Many of the horror stories could have happened even if no outside job offer had been made, and therefore they are not strictly speaking a result of accepting the counteroffer. They were simply fortuitous opportunities to escape the carnage. It's no more relevant than the fact that stopping for coffee one morning resulted in you missing (or being involved in) a horrific car crash.
4a) A person who doesn't know that their company is about to go belly up (or be bought, etc) probably wasn't paying too much attention to their company's competitive situation. You should know your present workplace well (you certainly don't know your new one), and if you don't, you should start - whatever your decision. Blinders never help anyone.
I can think of many other hidden biases, but I think you get the idea.
Take the counter-offer and tell the other company that you've decided to stay with your current employer. The devil you know is better than the devil you don't know.
Take a smaller raise instead of the 50% counter offer. It shows your employer that you have financial reasons for looking elsewhere, but are willing to negotiate and not trying to bankrupt the company. It also shows a reasonable amount of loyalty, flexibility, and altruism; and might negate almost all of the 10 reasons for not accepting the counter-offer.
I'd do it. I love my job but everybody can use a little extra money. I think a 50% raise is greedy.
I was once in a very similar situation. Although I did not go thru a salary reduction, the place became a terrible place to work at after the first wave of layoffs. The best people got canned, and those with seniority survived that first wave. These were the folks who did little work. I ended up having to do the work of 5 poeple and it sucked, while the surviving seniors still sat around on their butts pretending to work. I found a new job with more pay, but let the current employer talk me into staying with a matching pay increase. The work still stayed the same... sweatshop-like, but now my bosses had a bad attitude towards me for having had the gall to look for another job in the first place and "forceing them to pay me more to stay". The job then sucked worse for a few more months meanwhile the new job offer vanished and I had to wait even months longer before another new job offer came along that was agreeable, when it did, I bolted outta the current job asap, no pleading from my current boss would change my mind. I explained to him, as dryly and factually as a Vulcan would have explained, why my perspective of my current job just wasn't fair to me anymore and thus the reason for me wanting to leave. He couldn't argue with my reasons, they were all true, and I parted company in a civil manner, not burning any bridges. My predictions of the further downward spiral of that company all came true exactly as I said they would. After a couple more waves of layoffs, my former boss, who was now a vice-pres of the company finally decided to stand up to the senior management in support of what was left of his staff who were being treated geniunely unfairly, he got laid off for this... if only he would've had the balls to stand up earlier, he might have made a difference. Meanwhile I'm still happily employed at my new job.
Run, don't walk... to that new job.
I hate israel as much as I hate palestine. But the propaganda you've linked to in your sig is a piece of worthless garbage.
Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630
That's dividing all money since 1949 by the number of israelis today. You are stupid!
Take the better offer. Ask for a nicer title, too maybe, if it's not too late. Switching jobs isn't the hardest thing to do in the world, and they higher your pay is now, the higher it will be when you get work elsewhere. You can even stay with the company. A little assertive behavior every year or two can get you raises. If you know you're worth a raise, you sure as hell can convince your employer. Reasons Shmeasons I say. Take the money, be happy, and forget about all the nonesense.
--What, you ain't know about them country fried sessions?
The person who pointed out that taking the counter offer will put a "black mark" on your resume with that recruiter....BS. Headhunters are a dime a dozen, and no matter what they think of you personally for not accepting an offer, if they have a chance to place you somewhere else later to get a fee, they'll do it. Besides the chances that the same recruiter will be around the next time you look are slim, and you can alway go oth other place.
Ok, on to some real reasons you shouldn't turn down the original offer and take the counter offer:
1) If the place you want to go to is someplace you REALLY want to work, take that job. If you turn it down, there's a chance the next time you look, there won't be anything open.
2) If you take the counter offer, word *will* get out. It almost always does. Around here, that money comes from the pool for all raises. That means, if someone threatens to quit, gets a counter offer and accepts, raises are lower for everyone else. I saw one guy do this TWICE and get it both times. You know what? Come raise time everything was REALLY pissed at him. The dork ended up quiting anyway. 3) If it's only for the money, and you're happy otherwise and you take that counter offer, your next raise won't be that great. Layoffs coming? Your name is on the list at the top. 4) If you were considering leaving because you were unhappy, more money will soothe you for a while, but in the end you'll still be unhappy, and you'll leave anyway. Why not make a fresh start someplace else?
Having said all that, counter offers around here are standard operating procedure for people they want to keep. Personally, it really pisses me off that they end up giving more money to people who threaten to leave, and leave the other people doing good work in the dust.
The REAL bottom line is, do what you think is right. No matter what anyone else says, do what you think is right for you.
I have experienced this recently. I started working for Company X as a "tech kiddie." That early stage in a computer professional's career where he makes something like $10-$12 an hour. As time went on my skills increased, through my work and my own self-learning. I also learned from conferences and tutorials I attended on my own money and on scholarships and grants I earned.
Although my company contributed to the growth of my skills, they paid me by the hour for that time so I don't owe them anything for the learning I gained on their clock time.
So after working for Company X for 3 years, and being tapped as a programmer (skills partially from college that I pay for) and a network administrator, my pay was still $11.50 an hour. My friends and associates where making much more. Finally, one of my friends offered to get me a job where he worked. I explored the company, interviewed, and went through the whole process. When I was told it was a sure thing at the new company, I informed the President and CEO of Company X that I would be leaving for the new company and that I had a couple people qualified to take over my old position, one of whom was already an employee, but did not work with computers in his job. I offered to train them to do my job before I left.
The CEO had to make a decision at that point. He had a computer professional on staff whom he was paying less than he was apparently worth (since someone else was willing to pay more). He decided he would match the salary offered by the new company. I was more than happy to retain my current position at that new salary (driving distance, my own personal office, etc were better at Company X anyway). My new salary was not a major drain on company resources (I maintain the accounting DB too, so I know). It was the owner's decision to make an offer to keep me. If he didn't trust me anymore or didn't like me anymore because I went looking elsewhere, why would he counter-offer to keep me?
People in positions like this in business aren't stupid (in regards to business). They know people go where the money is, and that if someone is offering 20% or more, the employee is likely to move. They would be stupid if they didn't.
I have worked another year and a half at that company with zero problems.
I'm actually leaving the company (again), to move to a company that is offering 20% more. However, this time I am not going to accept a counter-offer. This is because the new employer will be offering opportunities to learn things that are not possible in my current job.
It's a choice between two people. The "boss" can decide to make a counter offer. If he does, you can choose one of two job offers depending on which you prefer. If you have to worry about your boss thinking ill of you because he had to make a counter-offer and give you a big raise to keep you, then you are working for a childish unrealistic person anyway. And your boss must know that if you can get one job offer elsewhere, you can probably get more. The whole idea of counter-offering is to KEEP the employee. If he treats you like trash, you're going to be job-seeking again. I believe that 90% of businessmen know that having to counter-offer to retain valuable employees is just part of business. The other 10% should be avoided as employers. The concept of company "loyalty" is just a way to use psychological tools such as guilt to manage employee behavor. The only reason to employ the term loyalty in this context is to try to convince the employee not to make a pragmatic decision. In this economy, take the highest pay in the set of all jobs that you are willing and able to work.
Quit the current job and try the new one.
Get raise.
Current employer says they are interested and want you to stay.
Go anyway but say that they can call you in three months time if they still want you. (If the old company really wants you to stay they will accept keeping you as a non-payed employee during that time.)
After three months, meet your old employer and discuss again. You have probably changed views on what you want to do at work and how you want your work to be organized. Tell them what you have found. They might like it.
Let them give you a new offer.
Decide.
The problem about deciding before you have actually changed jobs is that you only know how your current situtation is. To make an informed decision you have to try both places.
Change jobs first and then decide if it was a good choice. That is the only way of avoiding the "Maybe should have accepted that offer I got..." thoughts most people get later on.
You've stated that the salary increase for the new position was a 50% increase. This amount of money is, in other words, your new starting position at that company. If your current company was willing to counter that offer that's great but think of it this way:
Will you ever see another raise with your existing employer again? Probably not for a long damned time because they just went out of their way to keep you on. With the new employer, however, you are starting from ground zero. You can realisticly expect regular reviews/raises etc.
Also, you don't have to worry about loyalty issues, etc. It's also a chance, because it's a new environment, to learn new skills most likely and broaden your resume. I'd try thinking of the possitives the new position may offer you rather than just the negatives of accepting the counter offer. Seriously, most of the 10 reasons the recruiters list are real. I've seen most of them actually occur in my years in the industry.
Mark
Look, they'd be paying you what you were worth if it was a decent company. 50% is a helluva difference, which says to me you are being vastly underpaid.
And, as others have mentioned. If you accept, you will be treated as an arrogant money-grabber...
Almost happened to me, I was in a perm role, where I had been suckered into a support gig, with talk of the "brilliant" future of working in their dev. lab after "x" monthes. Only "x" monthes was a sliding window... Then at the "fabulous" Christmas party, they announced they were hiring a bunch of people for the lab, no you folks down on "client-site" are too valueable to loose, you will just have to stay there...
1 1/5 months later I was offered my first long-term contract, at what I thought was an ungodly rate (100% increase if you calculated it yearly), they told me they were desperate, they couldn't afford to loose me, what would it take to keep me? I told them my new rate, an hour later they told me they had gotten a transitionary consultant, whom I had to mentor for the next two weeks. All was going fine for the first week, one day he asked what my new rate was, I told him. Never heard from him again, he just disappeared. Turns out the cheap bastards were paying him less than 50% of what my new rate was... but he was an "emergency" consultant, a drop-everything to get my mentoring, and they couldn't pay him a decent rate.
It will never work. Go to the new job, and don't look back.
classic
The new company values you, out of the gate, at the new offer level. You existing company match that level begrudgingly. You have a fresh start with the new company starting at the offer level. You have bagged with the old company and you are now at your highest level after applying pressure. If you make a mistake, slack off one afternoon and are caught reading Slashdot, or worse, posting a reply, which organization will notice and be more likely to hold a grudge?
A fresh start at a new level--and that level is "ground zero" for you.
Having been in the exact circumstances you were in last summer and having chosen to jump ship, I'm pulling for you to do likewise. Last summer I was making $55k as a lead developer. Today I'm making $90k with equity in the company as an executive (but still a developer at heart). New opportunities are just that.
Go with the one who loves you, not the one who is jealous to keep you. Works better.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
I once moved jobs for a 9% increase. By the time I actually made the move, it was about 1%; they had given across-the-board increases to match industry pay scales. But I had comitted to them, so I went.
The second question is why your current employer a) hasn't increased your salary and 2) is willing to do so now, simply because you've had a better offer. I had one boss who, when he found out I was looking to transfer to another group, gave me a promotion so he could block further attempts. But he did *nothing* about the reasons I was looking in the first place.
I took the Counter-Offer a couple of years ago. It was one of the smartest things I have ever done. It upped my salary to a competitive level and it brought me more authority with my employer.
A Counter-Offer is good but there are a few things to remember. Never play the Counter-Offer card unless you are absolutely willing to leave, now, six months from now, a year from now... The people who make the offer now know that you were willing to leave and if they become unsatisfied with you in the future they will not hesitate to get rid of you.
Offering a Counter-Offer is generally a pretty bad business decision because it means that a company knows they were underpaying you. It also means everybody you work with who knows about the Counter-Offer now knows what the company is willing to do to keep someone. It leaves the company open to blackmail from its employees.
If I were you and I enjoyed my job I would take the Counter-Offer but I might even ask for more. Be prepared to leave if things don't turn out the way you like.
Beware the wood elf!!!
Why take a regular job when you can get paid to work from home?! Be your own boss! Earn $1000-$5000 per week with no risk!
I have friend who got a counter offer and brought the counter offer to the new company who re-countered and he brought the second counter offer back to his original company who said "F-off" essentially because they pissed with his tactics.
When he went back to the new company to accept they had hired someone in all the time it took him to go back and forth. He lost both jobs and was without one for a month.
I think there is a point where you can be too greedy, and this is it.
Such practices are common practice in academia.
In fact, in my field (economics), having an outside offer is the only way a tenured professor can get a raise from his current employer.
The company I went to that offered me 50% salary increase got me going from a very good company to a new startup, at that time I was ready to take the risk of being "screwed" in the worse case scenario. Job stability wasn't my main concern back then so I could afford "experimenting". What an experimentation it was, I got screwed big time, promises promises and after 6 months I've lost my job with some lawyers letter (the ceo there was a total freak and liar). After fighting to get my last week of pay and my overtime... anyways all this to say, this wasn't worth the 50% increase, the other place wasn't paying as much but I had a "name" and potential title to put on my resume. Worse, after I left and some other did the same, they re-ajusted their salary brackets and while it wasn't matching what I got, it was still good enough to consider the type of work and the stability for the little difference it gave.
:).
So basically, if you are looking for stability, and want to risk it in a startup that offers good salary so you they can start up properly with the good people, it's a risk, and depending on how much you are willing to risk and where you live, there are tools that you can use to protect yourself.
The other thing when you stay at a company that makes a counter-offer, some CEOs are dumbasses, especially in startup. They will take the fact that you looked elsewhere personnally "what, you think I am not treating you well? you think blablablabla? how dare you!", and they will always have that little irrationnal something caught between how professionnal you are and their judgment, some (very few) bosses understand this and respond in a good way, but most are very idiotic about it. That's one thing I like about some bigger companies, if you did a good job and leave because you got better pay, they reajust, and offer you to come back if it doesn't succeed, that way you'll have gained extra experience and if you get back chances are you'll be a more stable ressource and etc etc and they will rely on you more.
One thing you can do to be sure when you get a counteroffer, it shows that he really wants to keep you and you can ask more, like a one year contract so that way if shit breaks loose, you'll still get 1 year of salary for sure and he won't be able to fire you under normal circumstances. One thing I often saw is the CEO acts like if nothing happened and it's normal life going, he hires somebody with a different function but can overlap yours and ends up kicking you out. This is very common and "buisness is buisness" they'll say.
I also had a good experience going into another company with a bit higher salary, but it was people I already knew for a long time and all, so I guess this wouldn't count
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
As an underfunded PHB (Pointy Haired Boss) with hard deadlines, the steps I would take with an employee who was leaving a critical position (or project) would be for a 50% pay raise would be:
1) Counter the original - If it's a position I can't live without.
2) Hire a new guy to help you out - a review of the situation shows you could probably use some help. (But hire him at considerably less than your salary)
3) Have you train him in your position because with your talent I expect and want you to rise to greater oppertunities.
4) Help you achieve your potential by releasing you through budget cuts. Your cost in unemployment plus the new guy's salary is still less than your improved salary, or close enough that in a year I'm money ahead.
5) As a reference say you were a good employee, but I did need to extend a counter offer to keep you in a critical position. (This shoots your judgment in the view of many potential empolyers...)
LOL... even in a thread like this one, we can't leave the evils of M$ out of the discussion, now can we? :)
I have received counter offers three times, and accepted twice. In both cases that I accepted, the decision worked out well for me.
When evaluating offers and counter offers, my advice is that you look at the advantages and disadvantages of each offer exactly as if you were going to be a new employee at each job. This means consider all the aspects of each position and assess which will be best for you. The fact that one is an offer and the other is a counter offer is irrelevant.
The only caveat is the one that others have mentioned. Factor in your current manager's personality. Some managers recognize that getting an offer and receiving a counter offer is just a negotiation. Other managers will take the fact that you went looking for another offer as a personal insult, and hold it against you forever. If your manager is the former type, then you have nothing to worry about in accepting the counter offer. If your manager is the second type, then factor in the likely reprisal (which, as others have said, may include unfavorable reviews, poor raises or even dismissal in the not-so-distant future).
In my particular cases, the first time I received a counter offer, it was for a lesser pay increase, but more interesting work than the outside offer. I accepted the counter offer and happily stayed at the company for another six years.
The second time I received a counter offer, it was for a promotion to match a promotion offered by another division of the same company. The counter offer was accompanied by the threat, "If you leave now, you will never work in this department again." I left, never did work at that department again, and never regretted the choice.
The third time I received a counter offer, the counter offer did not involve an matching pay increase. Instead, they offered a job to my wife. (She was laid off from her previous job, and that is what prompted my search for a higher paying position as a contractor). I stayed, my wife took the job, and all three of us (my wife, our employer, and I) were happy with the outcome.
And don't worry about offending the company you turn down, if you should decide to accept the counter offer. In the last case, three and a half years later I wound up working for the company that I turned down.
Most managers recognize that offers and counter offers are a negotiation, and treat them as such. If the people making you the offers and counter offers are treating them as a negotiation, then you can make your choice without fear. If they don't treat them that way, then you probably don't want to work for them anyway.
Am I the only one who has noticed that the 10 reasons to not accept a counter offer are listed on a recruitment companies web site?
I started with nothing and I still have most of it.
I decided that I wasn't earning enough, so I handed in my notice. They immediately offered me a 4-digit pay rise, which I took. I didn't have another job to go to, but was confident that I could get one if I needed to. This was a few years ago, before the IT job market crash.
This is a capitalist society, go for whoever pays you the most, gives you the best benifits. Companies will kill eachother and screw over customers/employies to make a buck, so I would not take any company loyalty past the pay check. If its a matter of job security, stay, if its not, get out and don't come back unless they pay you more. Companies love to point out survival of the fittest when it comes to workers, but hate it and deny it to death when it applies to companies
The "is it a good idea or not" question is to vague. It all depends on the specifics of the situation. Your relationship with your employer, the current job market, your standing in the tech community (reputation, experience, etc), the general culture of your company, how long you've been there, how long since your last raise, etc etc etc.
I've both accepted and rejected counter offers, and for the right reasons. It has worked out fine so far every time.
this is getting old and so are you
blog
It's like any relationship. You weren't happy with one aspect of your job -- and, as you say, there was only one unhappy aspect.
Instead of telling your manager "I have a counter offer", you could have told them "I need more money to be happy here" (or words to that effect) without mentioning the other offer at all. Then, if your current company decides to meet your needs, there's less of a loyalty hit. And if they decide to terminate you just for asking, you have the other job.
I also kind of doubt that money is the only thing that makes you unhappy at your current job. I've never had a job where I was happy with everything else but unhappy with the money. But it's your experience and you say that is the case, so I'll take your experience as stated, but with a grain of salt.
I think to generalize counter-offers as either good or bad is thick-headed. Like most decisions in life, it depends on the situation you are in.
For example, if you are just one of many code monkeys in your company, taking a counter-offer is probably bad. They can replace you with any of the thousands of people out there with similar experience. It's unfortunate, but true.
However, if you are the only person that has very specific and important knowledge within the company, then a counter-offer is a great thing. If replacing you would cost them more time and money than giving you a raise, then they aren't going to do it. Being the only person that knows important information, such as the (undocumented) design of a crucial piece of software, makes you very valuable.
So, while being disloyal in the companies eyes may hurt someone that is easily replaced, if you are important enough the company will just have to live with your disloyalty.
Jack Welch (former GE CEO) implemented a 3-tiered rating system where the top 1/3 performers got big bonuses, the middle 1/3 got a token COLA, and the bottom 1/3 got fired. Well, didn't recieve any raise as an encouragement to do better or leave.
I don't think it's unreasonable to think that 25% (or more) of a large group doesn't even pull their own weight.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Look, your exisiting company doesn't want to pay
you a fair wage. You've forced them to. Now,
who do you think is going to be #1 on the list
for the next RIF?
I'd say, unless you *really* trust these guys, go
with your initial decision and start the new job.
They want you, and at a price *they* chose. Your
current company is going to be thinking they're
paying you twice what they should be.
Good luck,
Peter
Here's a few things to think about vis-a-vis your current employer :
Jono
I began doing contract work about a year ago when I met a retired millionaire who told me not to let people take advantage of me. Think about it on a Cost Accounting basis. I was making my previous company $120/hr and I was being paid 10% of that or $12/hr. I asked for a raise and they wouldn't budge (even w/ a MCP and CCNA I was making $12/hr for Christ Sake). So I began to work for myself and started bringing in $600/wk and I was able to take full time classes again. So I approached my employeer and told him that I was making more on my own and that I would be leaving so he offered me a counter-offer against myself for $35/hr. What it boils down to is that when your boss is threatened he will do everything in his power to appear the better bargainer because he wants to have the cards in his hand. When you approach him in this situation, you have all the cards because you lose nothing and gain everything. So your boss gives up a little ( and in most cases very little compared to what they make) to bring you back on and put you under their control. At that point you become another asset that's cost benefit is lowered. Your value to the company decreases unless (as another /. user noted you take on more responsibility). It would probably be best for you to move on to a new job and leave things as they are with your current company. That way you gain more control over your career instead of "waiting for the other shoe to drop".
The fact that they have been underpaying you the entire time should be enough alone. Employers should pay what the employee deserves, not wait until they decide to leave.
You are the only person in a position to know how everything balances out for you personally. Listen to yourself and come to some sort of understanding about how you feel about all of the issues.
Where do you stand as far as the ethics of accepting a counter-offer?
How much do you trust your current employer? How much do you trust the other guy? What are the odds of advancement?
You have not been in the job too long, in a sense you have been in an extended job interview. They know now what you are worth and are willing to pay you for it.
Oops. If his new salary is what he's worth, and it took a 50% increase to get there, then they were previously paying him 2/3 of what he's worth.
(If this looks confusing, use a hypothetical example. Original pay = $30,000; raise = 50% of $30,000 = $15,000; final pay = $45,000. $30,000 is 2/3 of $45,000.)
[grin] I hope you're not an accountant.
Personally, I would not take a counteroffer, or even look for one from my old company. If I had an offer from another company to do a similar job for more money, I would take it. I would look forward to the new opportunities and relationships possible at the new place. Yeah, I'd miss a few people around here, but such is life. The 1 or 2 people I go and hang out with will still be there to hang out with. The opportunity for something new would outweigh any reservations I would have.
However, ask yourself the question, 'This is more money, but why do I want to keep doing the same damn thing, even if it is more money?" Me, I'd rather move on to something in my field, but more interesting, wide open, and full of new challenges. I get so bored as it is, I need new challenges. Why stay in your current day to day doldrum?
I would agree that a matching counter is a compliment, but not if it comes after a pay-cut. The pay cut means they do not respect you. The counter says they need you anyway. At least, that's how I'd feel about it.
The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
What you do today will cost you a day of your life
Which is why he should turn down the counteroffer: to send a message that "the rate they must pay me to retain my services" is "what I'm worth". They lowballed him (in more than one sense of the word), so let them suffer.
How is it possible for someone to be lowballed? They offer you money for work and you accept. If you ask for a raise and they refuse, then leaving makes sense. But if they agree, whats the problem!?!
If the price of wheat goes up, do you start growing rice to spite the market for low-balling you? If a customer offers to pay the higher price for your now more expensive grain, do you refuse to spite them?
No!
In my experience, offers and counter offers are the only way that large pay increases ever happen. If you refuse to extend a current job where you are happy, to take a new position where you may not be happy for less money, then you are dumb.
Always nice to see the first post read exactly as I wanted to say. Also, many good posts. However, I do think that the important point of looking for other (job) opportunities is being missed.
Looking for another job does not always have to do with satisfaction of current employment. People often look for around because:
A) They know they are worth more (Read; their skills are yielding higher pay elsewhere),
B) They want to find out if there are more attractive employment opportunities out there (in terms of money or other benefits),
C) They want to push their current employer over the hump (and get that extra cash that the employer is willing to pay for their valuable skills).
It is important to keep in mind that looking for better pay has little to do with, in of itself, job satisfaction or loyalty. Furthermore, employers who are _worth_ working for, will often realize that job shopping is good business! Just as companies manage their capital, such as delaying costs (not offering the raise they know you're worth), so should any intelligent, motivated worker be on the look out to better their situation.
While a bigger paycheck is not the get-all, end all, it sure can be nice. As I see it, having addition funds to enjoy off-time hobbies, being able to put more money into savings and investments, is worth a bit of leg work, even if it means taking a new job or reminding your current employer what you are worth to them.
Ask for a raise first, and explain that you believe you are worth more than they are paying you. If you want to stay, explain that as well. Don't let on that you've had another offer; just tell them that you're certain you could earn better pay elsewhere, and that you'd be wrong not to accept the increase.
I/O Error G-17: Aborting Installation
I would just be happy with a Job OFFER.
You won't get a raise if you don't ask for it. Sometimes it causes bad blood, sometimes it doesn't. In my case, it worked out fine and I stayed on at the company concerned for another 5 years after making a stand.
It apears to me that companies in North America are more political than in other countries, so playing the offer/counter offer game may have more problems in USA/Canada than in another part of the world.
Well, given that you already gave your word to accept the other job, you shouldn't change your mind. I think one's word means a lot, and the word about one's flakiness can travel (especially within any single industry) and come to bite you in the future.
Having said that, I don't think what the website says has much relevance. Once you decide to take the offer, whether you change your mind later or not, your loyalty issue is already out -- both employers know you're willing to leave a job for more money. That pretty much makes all the point on the website moot.
The point the website brings up may be relevant if your current employer is a type of person who takes things personally. You don't want to work for someone like that, but if you're seriously considering staying at your current job then I'm thinking you probably don't think he is that kind of person.
BTW, if you stay at a job because they match your current salary (not beat it), then you obviously prefer your current job over the other. That's not exactly loyalty, but it shows you like the job. Your current employer may take that into account -- he knows he can always hold onto you as long as he matches other offers.
But again, having already given your word, I think you should move on. I think it'll be better in the long run.
But don't take my word for it. I'm still a newbie to this whole job thing -- I graduated from college just last year and this is my first year working for a company full-time. So perhaps that means I don't have much experience... but hopefully it also means I have fresher perspective on things to help you think about this issue, too.
If your current employer has been paying you peanuts, then offers you more money to reject a new job, what does that say to you about what your employer actually thinks of you?
Obviously they were paying you less than what they considered was your actual worth to the firm. And were happy to do this untill they were faced with your leaving. They were taking advantage of your good-will.
So take the new job. Because working somewhere that takes you for granted is not a nice place to work.
Do you mind, your karma has just run over my dogma.
If you've only held 1-3 jobs in the past 10 years, then definately accept the first offer and move on. In todays economy, 3 years/job is probably better than average in this field.
If you've held 3 jobs in the past 2 years then you should probably stay, and attempt to ensure that your resume doesn't make you look like a money-grabbing self-centered transient worker. Sure, your company may turn around in 3 months and 'right-size' you, but at least this is explainable on a resume, and this could happen anyway at any company.
Is it wrong to accept an employment counter-offer?
No, it is not wrong, do what is best for YOU. They don't employ you out of good wishes, they do it because you have skills/knowledge/experience they NEED. If not you wouldn't be working for them in the first place.
However remember you almost certainly have a contract with the new employer or agent, even if only verbal. You are never likely to be able to use them again.
The linked 10 reasons are all b******t.
I have to agree, these reasons are from a job site it's in their interests for you to change positions and feed the jobs merry go round.
You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
Where unhappy, past tense, your manager may be a miffed when you first announce, and have personalised feels about it, however it is almost certainly they who have driven the counter offer.
When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not. When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
If anything you've probably gained some respect. They are less likely to take you for granted in the future.
Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
If that is what motivates you, fair does.
Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?
Perhaps but unlikely; if they try you can always leave and you are better off you've gained six months of extra money.
Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price.
Unlikely, it is actually more expensive to recruit somebody and get them upto speed and there is also more demand than supply, particularly in our sector,
The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
This seems to be an argument in favour of not MAKING a counter offer rather than in favour of not accepting one. Worse case scenario, you leave for yet another pay increase, after six months.
Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
In my first job we had a guy that used a similar technique, we had annual salary reviews and six months later he would go and get a new job offer and use it to negotiate a counter offer thereby gaining two salary reviews a year. He was mostly respected for his b*lls, by the other employees, until our employer called his bluff and he left, though it took them 3-4 years to catch on.
What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth
I have to agree, this is the only valid reason in this list (probably why it was left until last) 'why did they wait to make the counter offer?' However this is obvious, basic supply/demand economics, because they thought they though they COULD. I would say do they make a habit of it ? or was there a specific issue such as temporary tight budgets ?
Always remember employers need employees as much as employees need employers.
The big question I have is, if they can pay him 50% more now, why give him a pay cut in the first place.
I don't know anything about this company or it's financial status but it sounds to me like they were just trying to squeeze more work for less money out of thier employees.
"For a successful technology, honesty must take precedence over public relations for nature cannot be fooled." -Feynman
As a hiring manager I can tell you this, I do not give counter offers. The reason I don't give counter offers is this: If the person accepted it, I'd probably fire them on the spot. Why? I can't count on them anymore. It's like a pandora's box. Once someone tells me that they are considering something else, I start working them out of my team. There are way too many very talented, very dedicated people available (especially now) for me to waste my own and my company's time on a paycheck hustler.
Unfortunately i posted late and this will likely not be modded up soon / high enough for everyone to see --
i think a poll would make much more sense than ancedotal evidence by given individual examples.
while that, true, the likelihood of the counter-offer being a good thing when taken depends heavily on the company, this will at least give some idea as to the chance of you being happy sticking w/ a counter-offer.
Counter offers
* took one and love it
* took one and hate it
* was never offered any
* offered and never took
* counter-offered the cowboy o'neal choice
My life in the land of the rising sun.
While skimming through, I noticed quite a few people have mentioned that they have taken more than one counter-offer and been satisfied with it.
The question I have is this:
Was the counter-offer really worth it if it turns out that you did in fact leave the company shortly there-after?
I personally did not consider the only counter-offer I ever received. I did this because I was looking forward to the new job.
All I wanted was a rock to wind a piece of string around, and I ended up with the biggest ball of twine in Minnesota
I started my career in 80's when corporate culture are valued, thanks to Ford who started it all out - company as a family and all as one. We have common focus and the company's vision really means a lot to us.
.......consultant.
Nowaday? Blah! Your company treated you as 'resources'(when you can be used) or 'headcount'(in time of downsizing); the vision/mission/values are well-written but the real meaning behind them is 'profit'; your contribution is not important when it's not directly contributed to profit; downsizing would increase stock values so the hell with morale; they paid you just enough to keep you, while your company tries their best to get the most out of their customers; the word loyality means nothing to your managers, but it's still being used when you are asked to accept unfavourable offers; when you aren't work overtime you are not competitive enough; 'insubordinate' in your review refers to anything you did/acted/said that didn't suit your bosses; you could hardly find an employee contract that does not include statements that fuck you up and over...
and the sadiest thing of all, is that most people read above paragraph will respond with 'so what? that's normal'.
So what's my opinion? Get the best you can get! Loot while you are there! They got the most out of their customers could give, it's obligatory to get the most out of your company. Don't be fooled by lies they learnt from management courses, like 'you are company's most valuable asset'(1/1459 of 15% of company's annual expenses), 'the work itself is a reward'(while I took the monetary counterpart), and 'you are at the top on the list of potential promotion'(scores sorted in accending order), etc.
Jump from one company to another so that you could get the most out of what you are worth. Eventually you'll like my friend and become a
I have always had a simple rule: Never change jobs unless the new job brings a significant additional benefit. The reason for this is the additional trauma a job change creates (rupture in career steps visible in CV, changing to a new team, relearning new tasks/new company, etc) need to be outweighed by the job'benefits.
In the case of a counteroffer, as long as one is sufficiently appreciated from a professional standpoint (this is more to do with integrity than cash - they rarely are linked!), I believe it is often better to stay.
It all comes down to judging the integrity of the team and the management - are they the sort to look at this as a "betrayal" (which is naïve, to say the least, but common enough)? If that's the case, you're probably better of somewhere else. Otherwise, the old adage "better the devil you knw than the devil you don't" is a good way to think.
How many of these "Counter-Offers are Dangerous/Evil" comments are from recruiting companies that are Astro-Turfing.
-ee: "I have a job offer for a much higher salary."
-er thinks "We can't lose him right now."
-er: "We're prepared to match that salary if you stay with us."
-ee: "Okay then, I'll stay."
-er thinks "Whew! That bought us some time, but this guy is just after money, so no doubt he'll be squeezing us for more later. I'd better start looking for his replacement now."
Being willing to jump ship for a better offer is not an impressive show of loyalty. Remember that employers ideally want idiot-savants who are brilliant at their work, but neither know their value nor seek their own best interests. They don't want people who are primarily influenced by money, they want people who are easily influenced by "good management" (i.e. manipulation and security/benefit shell games).
The counter offer is a slap in your face and will _certainly_ be used against you at a later date.
If they are suddenly willing to pay you what you are worth have them pay you retroactively as well.
In any event go to your new job -- setting up your new desk will be fun.
This
It strikes me that this top 10 list is perhaps not written with the employee's best interest in mind. The points are valid but heavily to one side and not balanced with say "10 reasons why staying maybe good". The discussion on /. gives plenty of reasons for both side of the argument.
I would be suspicious of it's origins. The recruiter in this story won't make a penny from the counter offer...
If you haven't previously let you employer know that you are dissatisfied with your salary, and are otherwise satisfied with your job, then there isn't a good reason to leave. Lots of the experiences where people take a counter and leave immediately after are because there is something more than money involved; matching the offer doesn't address the real problem. Just make sure you are comfortable with the situation otherwise, and have a frank discussion with your boss about your concerns about the counter-offer, and make you decisions based on that discussion. Don't forget that he is in selling mode, maybe he can point you to a co-worker who took the counter and you can get a first hand account of how to expect the company to treat you.
We make counter offers because we actually
want to keep people. Yes, it would be better
if management asked if people were happy
and it would be better if people asked for
raises, but people are busy, shy, etc.
If your company was going to screw you you
would know it and should act accordingly. If
you trying to change the work you are doing
then leave because it's not about the money.
I have accepted counters and regretted it. But you have a different situation, if money is the only reason for leaving. For me the reason for leaving was poor management and when I took the counter it was with promises of things changing and nothing changed.
I have never left a company for simply money reasons but if it were, I would consider a counter that matched. Be honest with yourself, if money isn't the only reason, leave.
If money is the only reason, it is a calculated risk to stay but it could work out. Your real problem is that "it working out" really isn't in your hands, it will be with the feelings of the people that had to make the offer.
On the plus side, it money is the reason, the devil you know is often better than the devil you don't know.
It was 8 years ago, and companies were DESPERATE for anyone who knew how to turn a computer on.
My salary went from $18k to $40k that year. Although with the raise, I was also offered a new position, a promotion, so there were none of the shortcomings, like being the tall-blade when the lawnmower came.
I still have that job, and I'm making over $70k (plus stock options) today, and have survived three acquisitions (the company was acquired) and god knows how many layoffs.
In today's climate, I sure as hell wouldn't risk it. It's also a very different company. When I accepted the counter-offer, there were like 100 employees, and I was on a first name basis with the senior staff, including the CEO.
Now, there's a couple orders of magnitude more employees, I've never been to the company headquarters, and never met anyone above Director level. I can trust MY manager, but I don't trust HER manager, and I sure as hell don't trust the CEO. I hear he cheats at golf. Totally different culture, different set of risks. And this is really the main factor you should be looking at.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
They were obviously willing to pay you much more than you were making! 50 freakin percent! I would take that as an insult. Of course you looked elsewhere, you weren't making what you should make. You knew it and obviously they knew it as well. If they want to get all snotty and call you a loose cannon, then call them on the fact that they KNEW they were underpaying you!
Two years later, I went quietly looking - no real opportunities for advancement, the work had gotten stale. I got a nice offer, and again they made counteroffer, though not quite as tempting. I moved on to what is now my current employer, and I'm happy.
Soon after I left, the robotics company had four rounds of layoffs. I really didn't expect it (and I'm told that it happened the day after a rah-rah company meeting talking about how good things were). Somehow I doubt I would have survived, and I'm glad I didn't take the counteroffer.
I'm not sure what the moral is. I've gone both ways and been pleased with the results. Either I'm easy to please or lucky or both.
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
Accepting a counter offer, particularly in a large company, is a highly political game. I would suggest that if you had a handle on the politics of your organization you would not be asking on Slashdot. You would already know what to do. For this reason alone, I would suggest you move on and forget about it.
On the other hand at my current employer or my previous employer I would have had no problem accepting a counter offer. In both places I have seen other people accept them and for the most part it was without any significant consequences. That said all of them were contractors who could play office politics well.
Look around your organization for context. You should be able to figure out if any managers you are close to think it would be a good idea by the subtle ways they act. If they are saying "we're gong to miss you around here" after the counter offer has been made, it's a big hint. Try to find out if anyone else, who is not managment, has done what you are thinking about and see if they will talk to you about it. Make sure you are somplace where no one will hear you and that you are talking to someone who can be discrete. You don't want this going around the water cooler.
YMMV. Good luck.
~~ What's stopping you?
If you get a better offer from another company, you should give your company at least the courtesy of attempting to counter-offer.
You know how your employer feels about you, or at least you should. And if you are a hard worker, someone who produces for the company, and not basically a shmuck for the past 2 years, informing your present employer that a job kind of 'fell from nowhere' into your lap and you are considering it, there should be no problem.
If you beleive that your present company doesn't really care if you live or die, just get the work done, then I would suggest not attmepting to get a counter-offer, why would you want to stay there anyway?
I was offered a job through a headhunter, that had good health care. And flexible working hours. The company then counter my offer with a raise. Needless to say I took the counter-offer, to this day I am with the company.
I guess it all comes down to the fact that a) does your current company has growth b) Not sure what to expect from the new firm, and feel that there are chances to build on your work experience.
Btw If I had the chance again, I would have not taken the counter offer. The other company would have paid for training,
Not only that, but the company's web site that wrote the 10 reasons is a RECRUITER! Of course they don't want you to take a counteroffer--THEY WON'T GET PAID. It's just as biased as if Microsoft offered a 10 reasons not to use Linux page.
That recruiter would not be happy you compare them with Microsoft. I mean, they use reasons, while Microsoft uses FUD.....
Unless you're documenting things extensively to show that they're coming up with fantasies, they can put just about anything into your HR file that they think they can get away with. A non-termination contract will give them incentives to come up with stuff to get you fired or to drive you to quit when they have your replacement in house.
Strictly speaking, you should play counter-offer deals by ear and take/reject them accordingly.
I've been offered one counter offer that was a joke (it was 1/4 what the other place was offering...)- I didn't accept because of the subtle changes in the corporate culture and the sheer size of the other company's offer. The place I was working for did a layoff 7 months later. Had I accepted, knowing the corporate culture at that place and how it'd changed, I would have been on the short list for that one.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
What is your boss like? I've had many employees quit on me -- some I was happy to see go and I wished them luck and a few others I made counter-offers to. I'd never willingly make a counter offer to dead wood or problem employees. I've been around long enough that I don't buy that loyalty crap either. But I've also been pushed to counter to keep an employee I'd other wise let go because upper management wanted to keep the skills. Usually you end up firing them later because the problems just get worse.
You say you are otherwise happy with the company. This is key -- if you're looking because your job sucks more money isn't going to make it suck a whole lot less. Life is too short for sleepless nights and ulcers.
I'd talk with your boss and find out how he feels about your "looking". Be sure to explain this fell into you lap and that your resume isn't on Monster trolling for "bids". Find out why he's making the counter and explain your concerns. If your boss is anything like me or bosses I've accepted counters from this shouldn't be a problem.
This industry changes quickly, it's easy for even a "fair" company/manager to get out of sync with the current value of an employee. Don't take it personally if you find out you're underpaid.
no one else's.
One company I worked for did not give substantial increases in pay unless you proved you could get more elsewhere.
The owner actually respected people who didn't just come in asking for a raise, but took the time to prove they could make more elsewhere. No retaliation for getting other offers.
People who just said "I deserve more" without an offer rarely got a boost, unless they just got a degree or a desirable cert or something like that.
Every company and owner/manager is different. To think someone can come up with a "top ten" list that characterizes a "correct" protocol in wage negotiations is ludicrous.
It's amazing how they felt that my expressing misgivings about my position in the company invoked a nice counter offer and a simultaneous feeling that I was "arrogant", a "loose cannon", and "unmanageable".
Those are the best qualities to have - it just means that Management has recognized you are doing something smart. They like to be the only ones doing the screwing, you screw 'em back and you're "unmanageable". You know what I say? Good! I'd rather be "unmanageable" than some clueless putz that gets it up the ass every day.
I'm a 2000 man.
Now, the other side of this is.....are you really worth what they are offering you? No really....are you? I mean really? Do you know what the going rate in your city for your skill level? I can't count the times where we took a Key Op, got them a job doing Software QA as an entry level position. They got a 50% raise over their keyop pay and 3 months later, are pissing and moaning they are underpaid. You're not worth it! Get some better skills and some experience before you whine you ungrateful little shit! We take a small cut of the billing rate and pay them most of it (no really, I'm not shitting you....~70%). The more you make skippy, the more we make. If I could get you $100/hr, why would I NOT get it for you? HMMMM? Because I would rather get $20/hr BR and pay you $15? I have unemployment fees, SSI and Medicare, Insurance, rent, etc. Then, whatever is left over, we pay ourselves.
So, I ask again....are you worth what they are offering you to begin with?
If you are, then go with the original offer and don't look back. And, as previous posts point out, I am assuming you have done your due diligence regarding your new company. Are they going to be in business next year? Are they growing? What can they offer you and your career as far as gaining new skills, interesting work, advancement, etc. Are you going direct? Contract to direct? Do they offer any benfits? When can you join? Do they match 401(k)? Do they have any other benefits that are of note? Think it through before you give notice, but once you have decided.....go with your decision and don't look back.
Good Luck!
WTF? Over?
First, you realize that your were recruited. Now ask your self these questions. Do you like your current Job? Are the people you work for great from management to your level? Is your company stable? Are others in your company leaving for other jobs? Have you employer totaly upfront with you will all of your projects and with the work environment? Then look at the company that you intervied with. Will they be around in a year? Are you replacing someone who left? Find out about the stress levels in the office. You may be making a mistake leaving your current job for sake of salary. If your current employer values you, they will counter offer. Also be aware, that if you take the other job and you do get RIFed. You mite be stuck with the cost of paying the recruters fees the compayn paid when they hired you. Read the Fine Print of your offer letter. Thom
I see lots of poeple saying "take it". Well, what if the new company goes out of business in a few months, where'd you be then?
Given that you have two offers for the same money, it's obvious: analyze the situations not considering money. Add up the pros and cons and decide which is better. However, remember that you know little about the new company and a lot about your current one. Depending on your personality, you will either have tendencies to favor the new or old company.
If the company is paying you with beans, fuck 'em. I work. I expect to be paid for it. If not, then too bad for them.
We all can be replaced.
That said, how does this fit into your situation? Well, first, you have to determine how difficult is it for the employer to replace you? Will it require a large learning curve? Do you have specialized knowledge that no one else at the company has that is VITAL to the company? If so, then stay.
I have seen companies let folks go because the bean counters said so - and as a result they couldn't make a product because it required specialized knowledge. In this field those folks are far and few between.
Do you live someplace that for the vast majority of people is considered a sucky area (like North Dakota). It would require a whole lotta money to get me to move there.
Beyond the learning curve and the area of the country, your best bet is to go with another company. Rumors get around and someone is going to notice you got a pay increase.
IANAL, but I've seen actors play them on TV
I once quit the same job three times over a span of a few years, fortunately the last time it stuck. Each time I got more cash and substantial perks (I lived for free in London for 8.5 months).
... you are getting screwed.
... they finally figures it out).
There is nothing wrong with renegotiating, if a company is paying half what another will offer for similar working conditions I have news for you
The absolute easiest way to renegotiate is to go get an offer for more, prove that someone else is willing to offer you better terms. If you allow a company to underpay you, they will.
If the job sucks, money and perks will likely not be enough to make you want to stay. Who knows, throw the counter offer back at the new possible employer and see what comes out of it. I can tell you this much, it won't hurt.
If it were me, a 50% pay differnetial is borderline worker abuse and I would tell them to do something fowl. I would definitely throw the counter at the future employer and see if they would up the ante. Once you start no one is going to old your shrwed negotiating skills againts you.
Quitting is one of the greatest feelings in the world when your job sucks, be creative and have fun with it. I have an ex-collegue who pulled an Office Space (just stopped coming in for a few weeks
Peace,
Tom
.. and Microsoft has plans to migrate Technet to Slash.
If you think you're going to get paid solely on what you are worth, then you deserve minimum wage.
In my current position, I've done this process 3 times so far. It is the ONLY way to get a promotion. Everybody knows it; those who get canned for doing this were not valuable enough to begin with or the company itself is in the process of going down the tubes.
Get this: In my shop, I am on the timid/fearfull side. Everyone is my shop gets paid more than me. All three times I've done this process my relationship with my peers have changed; I gained more respect.
By accepting any job to begin with, you recognized that you can be bought. The rest of your life you'll just be haggling over your price.
One point that seems to be overlooked is that the people with a bad reputation for "chasing the money" are going after relatively small sums - 10%, maybe 15% at the most. While this isn't inconsequential, most of us would happily trade 10% of our salary for better benefits, a less stressful commute, etc.
But when you're in the 50% range, *nobody* will challenge you for putting the money first. (Well, I've known a few asshole bosses who would try to guilt you, but nobody else would give them any credence.) That's too much of a jump to ignore.
Unfortunately, the same thing applies to counteroffers. If your boss offers you a 10% counteroffer, it's easy to justify as compensation for some thin raises during the past few years. If your boss offers you a 50% counteroffer, you'll soon be resentful because you'll realize how much you were underpaid before, your peers may become resentful, etc. It's a bad situation all around.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Your situation tells me:
1. Your employer was underpaying you. Either they did it knowingly or they had no clue what you're worth. Either is pretty bad.
2. You're not very "go-get-em" with respect to your salary. If you can allow your pay scale to fall that far behind, you're not very good at looking out for your own career. As an honest employer, I'd wonder whether an employee who doesn't stand up for him/herself can serve my best intrests. As a crooked employer I'd wonder what else I could pull over on you.
When I resign, I include a sentence like: "My decision is final and I am not interested in a counter offer." Don't accept your employer's counter.
It depends on your employer.
Employer A.
Does your upper management think people will always be lazy and that they have to be over your shoulder like a hawk making sure you are working?
Employer B.
Or does your employer believe the people have a desire to work well without being "whipped" around?
First off about raises, they don't like to give them. If they give you a raise it is almost impossible to cut your pay later without them becoming the "bad guy" to you or other employees. Managment would much rather do bonuses. So giving a raise is a tuff decision for them.
If you are under Employer A I might be a little wary of taking a counter-offer. They most likely will think this: Your restlessness in the company goes just to show that you don't like working and enjoy being lazy. And that you'd take another job for more money where they won't watch you like a hawk like we have had too. It's just what we thought all along he/she has no company loyality.
Now this situation maybe over done in some cases but I know a few people who work jobs that this is exactly how it goes. Yet with this mind set they might not even make the counter offer, but if they do I'd most likely take the other job.
And my big question would be why would I be working at a place that like that anyhow. Their treatment of you bring their own fears upon themselves.
If you had Employer B. It may go like this:
The guy/gal is a hard worker and is looking for better opportunities to succeed. This person is driven. Maybe we should offer a bit more to keep them with us.
Employer B would make a decision like this based on looking at your past employement record. If you do jump around a lot they may not even make the counter offer, but if they do . . I'd say stay. And pad yourself on the back for finding a good employer.
However you need to do your homework and know what kind of people you are working for, which needs to be done when you are first job hunting.
You are worth what you negotiate, period... Companies don't pay your salary out of the good of their collective hearts. They pay the lowest price they can get away with -- just like you do with anything YOU buy. Sure, sometimes you'll pay a premium for better service etc. but so will your employer.
If you aren't getting paid enough, then it's nobody's fault but your own. It's not up to your employer to hold your hand and make sure that you're paid very well. That's your job.
So if you say you're leaving for better salary, why wouldn't you accept a higher offer from your own company? Do you really think they'll ditch you just because you did that? Well, if so, then don't take it I guess. In my experience, companies seldom do that (though it happens, of course). From what I've seen, they consider it part of the employment game. If they don't think you're worth the extra bucks, they'll pass.
Usually, however, I've found that it's better for everyone if you ask for the raise -first-. That is, negotiate it. In life (especially business/work) EVERYTHING is a negotiation. If you've got a job offer that is just as good as your current job, except with higher pay, then you have an -exceptionally- strong bargaining position. Use it to your advantage and get an amicable resolution. Negotiation doesn't have to be nasty and confrontational. At the end, if both sides get what they want, then everyone wins.
In any field, find the strangest thing and then explore it. -John Archibald Wheeler
I think the 10 points listed assume too much about being in a more hostile situation. I went through a offer/counter offer situation several years ago. The two companies were not competitors. In fact they were about as close to being partners as you can get. Moving from one company to the other was not considered "Disloyal". I have never regretted accepting the counter offer.
My old sig was REALLY stoopid.
Approaching this differently, here are my experiences when I had counteroffers and stayed.
.
Twice in my first consulting position (4.5 years), I had an opportunity to leave. The first was when a client made an offer, and the company counteroffered before I said anything. The second was when I considered leaving the consulting business, and they offered to transfer me to a different position.
The first time I did not initiate the job search. The second time I was fed up with a lot of issues, but the company understood and I had been a loyal employee for several years.
In short, if you've got a good relationship with the company and good reason to leave, a counteroffer may be an adjustment.
Now, on the flipside . .
If the company is paying you squat and now suddenly magically finds the money, be very, very suspicious. It doesn't sound like the relationship is solid, and they're only looking at the bottom line.
I've heard tell, as many have said here, that counteroffers are just an attempt to retain you until they can fire you. In many cases, it seems to be a fact.
Leave the job. Take the new one.
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
It seems to me you were contacting a recruiter in the first place. Are you not happy with your current employement or is the reason for seeking a new job simply for more cash? If the answer truly is just money, then you should have asked your employer for a raise in the first place. Now that you've pursued other opportunities and threw it back in your employers face, you probably lost a little bit of respect at your current job. Sure, they can't afford to lose you right now so they need to counter the offer. Are you in the middle of the project right now? That would answer why you are a valuable asset at this time. Once they are done with that, you will be the first to go. If you aren't happy with your current employer, then you can't just demand money from them and say that is the only reason for staying. Further, the money is not the only thing keeping you there so why not just go to the next job anyway? If I was your current employer, I would view this as unprofessional and inconsiderate. If you really wanted to stay with your current employer, you should have been up front with them in the first place instead of going over their head. Everyone has the right to seek a better opportunity; however, using it to leverage your current position is simply wrong. Rule of thumb. Always be up front and honest but only tell the people who need to know.
http://www.askthevoid.com
Is this a job that entails skill ? Did it take you some period of on the job learning to become fully productive ? Did they pay you less while you were getting up to speed ? Did they know how good you'd be when they hired you.
It is utterly reasonable to make a counter offer and quite reasonable to accept. You're clearly marketable, you can take the risk of the company behaving like idiots.
They wouldn't make the offer unless the meant it. Sure they SHOULD have spotted how valuable you were and paid up at your last review, but clearly YOU didn't know what you were worth either, or you did but you didn't make the case.
If there are reasons to stay at the job besides the money, I'd take it and stay. There's no shame, and your boss will ask you not to mention the counter offer. YOU SHOULD AGREE TO THIS.
Be professional, your company IS being professional.
sjf
I got one at my current employer. I would have been moving from a job I liked to a job I didn't like. So, I asked for a counter offer, which they originally weren't going to give because they felt that I should expand my career, etc. Then when they realized all the stuff that I did, they gave me one that was slightly under the other job's pay. So, I was disappointed, but considered it, and then took it.
Even today, I still don't make as much as I would have made at the other place. The main reason I turned it down is because the other job would have entailed programming in Access Basic, whereas here at least I get to do Visual Basic. It turned out that my counter-offer pay increase was considered my raise for the year. And since then, I've gotten one good raise, and one 0% raise. (Which has upset me terribly, enough to consider leaving again.) The only really good thing about it is that I've gotten a promotion out of it.
So, the success of this story is that my employer seems to believe I'll stick around for the long haul. So, they aren't worried about me being disloyal. But, on the other hand, it didn't improve things terribly much.
Back when I first began working and was rather green, I fell into this trap, but only once. If you accept the boss' counter offer, even if he smiles like everything is fine and dandy, you can bet you'll be dealing with his resentment, along with that of your fellow cow-orkers, once they find out what went down (and they will!). This resentment may be deep down and hidden, but it will always be there, and you'll quickly notice that you are being treated differently than before -- like an outsider, a bounty hunter, or a traitor. Most likely you'll end up leaving anyway. So, if you really want to leave, LEAVE! Don't even consider a counter offer. Bosses don't like being held up, and the smart ones won't even play this game, because they know if they do, they'll soon have a long line of other workers stopping by the desk to get a better deal. Just .02 from somebody who's been there.
You should make your employer aware you are unhappy! How else will anything get fixed? Of course, you should have already brought this up in your last review ; )
This can go both ways. Your new employer might question your loyalty because you jumped ship! Or, your old employer might feel you're even more loyal because you stayed.
Not if you were so underpaid to begin with. Sure, if you were whiny about making so little, when in reality, you were already the highest paid employee, then I agree with that one.
And what were you before your acceptance, hmmm? Slave labor? Sometimes the only way for even your boss to get you to the level of compensation they feel you deserve, is for them to present the offer to upper management. I would consider the counteroffer a compliment - they thought highly enough of you to actually do something about it!
Early raise? Why wait? Also, in a company with even a few employees ( > 10 ), your increase will truely not have that much of a negative impact when following guidelines.
Doubtful. Unless you are in a low-skill position, why would they bother with a counteroffer? They've probably invested time and money into making you a better employee through training and the like. They don't want to start from scratch, that would be far more costly.
Of course they will! They would have at the new job, too! It's part being in the work force. Part of your responsibility is to let your employer know your concerns. Without change, there will be stagnation.
Statistics sited of course. =/ I can see this being true, as the folks who are part of the study weren't happy where they were to begin with - the reason for that are probably varied, going beyond simple dissatisfaction with compensation.
If you are making significantly more than them now to start with, I can see things going sour. But, if after the counteroffer acceptance you are end up making about the same as the rest of your peers, it might actually improve, and earn more respect!
Who said anything about threats? In larger organizations, radical alterations in pay need extreme justification - where even Montgomery Scott-like performance (miracle worker) doesn't cut it to upper management.
YMMV, but if monetary compensation was the only issue, I can't find a reason not to accept a counteroffer. The reasons not to accept just seemed like a lot of FUD to me.
-Ducky
>> a recruiter contacted me with a very nice potential position - I interviewed and received an offer with a 50% increase in pay
Ummm... just to be safe, you maybe oughta pinch yourself and make sure you haven't time warped to 1999 or something.
Maybe in the past the "system" worked. Employers extended offers, people accepted, end of story. These days employers RESCIND offers which is probably the worst crime an employer can commit. But it happened to me- six months of thinking I had a job when I get out of school only to find out shortly before I was scheduled to start that the offer was rescinded. I even turned down other [better]offers during those six months. Here's my point: very few employers subscribe to the same set of values that they used to. Don't be nice to them because they're sure as hell not looking out for your best interest. If a better offer comes along while you're in the market, take it. Employers can get whoever they want in this economy; you're not hurting they're feelings if you take another offer. Ideally, once you verbally accept an offer, you shouldn't accept any other offers, but until things in the market settle, I'm pretty sure employers aren't going to follow the same rules. Do what you have to do to survive.
[figz@figz figz]$ kill -9 `ps -ef | awk '$1=="figz" { print $2 }'`
Like many of my fellow posters, I feel you need to check the company politics before accepting the counter-offer. If you accepting the offer will cause ripples within the division/office, you might consider departing at your earliest convenience. After all, it might indeed cause your eventual departure. If your department is in general agreement about you needing more money, take it. After all, my department offered me more money and a different position within it without figuring that I might seek other employment. It seemed like they thought I might leave in any case. I'm happy at the moment.
Instead of telling your boss that you have a job offer from another company that is better for you than you current job, instead ask for a raise (if this is what you want most) or if you think your boss will change the work environment to suit your needs then ask for that.
I read this before leaving a job a few years ago. I agree with it, for the most part.
Exactly! I know plenty of people who have taken counter offers with no negative side effects. There are some commonalities though. All of these people were fairly critical to the projects at the time, were all excellent workers in general and they were all getting paid less than they were worth to begin with. They also weren't looking for huge salary jumps, but matching offers. If you enjoy your work and honestly don't want to leave except to get a higher salary (*Especially* after a pay cut) then take the counter offer. If you are fair with your employers, and you don't lord it over your co-workers who might not have the same opportunity, then it shouldn't be too much of a big issue. All these people who got canned after accepting a counter should have expected it based on the management style they worked under, or they likely thought too highly of themselves and either demanded too much or didn't put in the same effort once the decision was made.
bkr
"Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
By virtue of their counter offer, your present employer has acknowleged that they have been underpaying you. The counteroffer should then contain some sort of retroactive compensation for this.
Have you read the Moderator Guidelines yet?
You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
No you have not; you've made your employer aware that he's not paying you enough and this has nothing to do with loyalty. If your loyalty is in question, this is not a consequence of the offer but of the stupidity of you employer.
When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.
See #1. Also: if your employer made you a counteroffer, you're at least worth something so maybe your chances at promotion time are even higher:)
When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
Nothing wrong with that; when times get tough, there's less work available for you so your value on the jobmarket gets lower so it's perfectly normal to get a cutback. Your chance to get a cutback at another employer is about just as high.
Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
Accepting a counteroffer means you actually like your job but get payed more. How can that possibly be a blow to your personal pride?!
Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?
Maybe it was. Is that so bad? Getting a raise earlier doesn't implicate that you won't get another raise soon.
Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price.
And they will get what they pay for so when they can do with someone cheaper, you're probably not the right man for the job anyway. And if you're not the right person, just don't accept the counteroffer
The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
So? There are other ways to make it clear to your employer that you're worth more than he's paying for.
Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
So...where are those statistics?
Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
If your co-workers are such assholes, maybe you shouldn't accept the counteroffer and go work somewhere else, but this has nothing to do with the counteroffer.
What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
A company that doesn't know that well what you're worth. That's not a good thing, but it's not reason not to accept a counteroffer.
Conclusion: the 3 reasons for not accepting a counteroffer are: 1. Your boss is an asshole, 2. Your collegues are assholes or 3. You're not the right man for the job (or just don't like the job). Oh and maybe you'd also noticed these 10 reasons where on a site called `jobtechsearch'. Their sole goal is to get you a new job so counteroffers are a bad thing for them:)
0x or or snor perron?!
In the ideal world, where professionalism is practiced, this isn't personal, it's just business . That being the case, you make your decision based on what's best for you financially and professionally and take the offer you want. Professional people understand that, as they would do the same in your position, and deal with it accordingly.
Unfortunately, we don't live in the ideal world, there is no such thing a professionalism in modern business and people WILL take it personal. Because of that, you HAVE to treat the situation as a personal relationship and not a business relationship. Yes this is sad but, unfortunately, a fact of life. What you have done is equivalent to going to your significant other and stated, I've been seeing someone else and I would like to end our relationship. At that point, there is no turning back. Oh, the other will beg you to stay, say that things will change and ask you to try to work it out and be one of those rare couples that use this as a way to make your relationship stronger. However, while you think it's all behind you, there will be hidden resentment, hurt feelings, feelings of insecurity and sometime down the line YOUR the one who is left as they have gone out and started looking for YOUR replacement.
As I said, while this may be a very sad and a very cynical commentary, it's simply human nature and a fact of life. Take the new job and remind yourself of the reasons you left in the first place. I'm sure that if you looked deep enough you'd discover that money wasn't the ONLY reason you wanted to leave. Even if the new job doesn't work out, you'll be better off in the long run.
--I don't mind the school of hard knocks, it's those darned refresher courses I hate. =)
1. You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
Possibly true. But in a company run by grown-ups, you're supposed to let management know that you're unhappy. You are not supposed to whine about it, but you can state, in a reasonable way, that you are dissatisfied. That's what you do when you ask for a raise. And only foolish, childish managers will be shocked (Shocked!) to learn that some employees don't love the company. Of course, not everybody's a grown up.
2. When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.
See above. And, they will also remember who was good enough to receive an offer of a fifty percent raise, and who was considered valuable enough to be retained with a similar raise.
3. When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
Perhaps. There are no guarantees in life.
4. Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
This is ridiculous. We are bought with our salaries. It is how the system works, and it's a reasonable and honorable exchange: work for pay. If you do something unethical because you've been offered lots of money, that's different. Volunteering is great if you are independently wealthy. Most are not. I've allowed myself to be bought away from the life of leisure I prefer: The company told me that if I write programs they'll give me money.
5. Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?
Could be. One of the wage and salary guidelines most companies follow is to get and retain the people they need for the least amount of money. That's why you negotiate salaries and push a bit.
6. Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price.
Doubtful. If I were going to do that I would probably just let the person take the new job and then start looking. If the position was so vital that I couldn't do that, I would consider making a counter-offer to retain somebody who already knew the company and the job.
7. The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
True in some cases. But in the post we're discussing, the only difference between the jobs was money.
8. Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
As others have noted, I want to know the details on these statistics.
9. Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
Word does not always get out. And I personally still respect one of our sysadmins who stayed with our company on the basis of a counter offer. He's been here for five years since then, and everything is fine. I'm not an idiot and neither are my co-workers. The guy is good, he has a family to feed and parents to take care of, another company offered him money, and our company offered more to keep him. They made a good move. Management and staff knew why he was going to leave, because they also use money to purchase goods and services for themselves and their families.
10. What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
A normal one. Not that the person who posted this couldn't have asked for more money sooner, obviously, but he didn't. It does not sound as though he was asking and asking and then finally, after many months of trying to get what he was worth, had to threaten to leave. He didn't know what he was worth to the company and only found out when he tried to leave.
Management may feel strong-armed in this situation, and they may resent him. Maybe it is better to leave. Also, variety and change are good. But that top ten list was weak.
If you wanted a raise, you should have asked for one first. When you didn't get it, then you could get an offer somewhere else and _maybe_ give your company a chance to counter-offer.
Getting an offer for another job to get a raise from a counter-offer alone is shady and illustrates a problem with communication between you and your management. If the only way to get a raise is to get an offer elswhere, then you are walking a dangerous line and it will probably be your last raise. Who would want to work for a company like that anyway?
The question I keep wondering about is why did you apply for another job if you weren't already sold on leaving the company you are at? I know when I am ready to leave a company for a new one then it is already all over. If I want a raise I ask for it. If I feel I _can't_ get a raise without getting an offer somewhere else, then I do not want to work where I am at and I am already gone.
-- Mean People Suck
Several years before I had made it known I was considering a move, when I was only working part-time at my first programming job. I was called to the director's office a few days later and offered more hours at a 100% pay increase to stay on for 8 months, with the possibility of a full-time position at the end of the period.
I'd advise testing the waters when you have an offer, before revealing that you have one. i.e. drop hints that some other path looks interesting. Use caution, never let the door behind you close until after you're through the next one.
Lastly, never, _never_, __NEVER__ burn bridges. It may feel good at the time to tell someone what you think of them or how you feel about a certain department, but it's a risk, which I've seen blow up on people in the past. Be gracious, or at the very least, polite on your way out. You never know, particularly in some circles, who you may see again some day.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Instead of telling your employers about the offer, ask for a raise. If they dont give it to you take the offer, if they do give you a raise that matches the offer then stay.
Where I work, most of the government contractors don't even entertain the concept of counter-offers. It's: "there's the door. Seeee ya!" So by our standards, you were lucky to get the initial 25%
The funny thing is, out here few are qualified (or willing) to fill existing techie positions, let alone new vacancies. Perhaps it's meant to keep the sniping down to a minimum.
Stuff that matters: circuitbreakers, vacuum-cleaners coffee makers, calculators generators, matching salt+pepper shakers
You might want to look into the stability of companies as a factor before taking any decision. Most (software) companies consider joining date as one of the criteria while doing a layoff. In the worst case, if a layoff happens at both companies, you have more chances of suriving the layoff at the old company rather than the new company
Is if they will allow you to install Linux. ------------ Thanks, I work out.
"The two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." -Harlan Ellison
I accepted a 25% raise, but then took the 35% counter offer. Here's what I learned: 1. I felt bad for renegging, but got over it. It's just business. 2. The recruiter was PO'd because he lost a lot of money. He told me 100% of his clients who take a counter offer end up still leaving the company within 1 year. 3. I got a lot better projects and more responsibility at my job (which is what I wanted) after taking the counteroffer. 4. I left after 11 months because a still better offer came around. I took it and have been happy for the past 3 years. 5. The company I was going to work at ended up shuffling managers, but I probably would've done OK there also. I believe you're in a win/win situation if money was the only problem at your current company. If your current managers or work environment are crappy, extra money won't change that. TDB
I work in constant fear that I'll be replaced by someone cheaper. That is why I refuse to work for more than minimum wage.
I think in this situation you should stay. You said you had everything but a decent salary, and they have fixed that.
When a counter offer is made, some things have usually already
happened:
1. You already were unhappy enough to look for another job.
Usually because you want more money and they won't
give it, or title/responsibility...
2. Another company made an offer for something I assume
you were interested in enough to go through the process
of have an offer extended.
Now if you are for real:
You wrote a resignation and turned it in.
If you were worth a crap, you were swarmed upon to
be convinced that this is a mistake. You will inform them
that your decision is final. When they counter offer,
you can ask, "If I was worth this NOW, why was I not worth this
WHEN I ASKED FOR MORE MONEY BEFORE???". (and if you did not
ask for more money before, you are too dumb to work for me...)
A good manager will have already taken care of you,
or faced with a resignation, will wish you the best of
luck. You cannot allow people to hold companies hostage,
soon everyone will try the manuver. (I fired a few
"give me an office or else...")
I have let many people go when they expect a counter
offer. The good people know that I am fighting for them
pay wise, and I let them know if I cannot compete.
I found that more productivity is gained when you
are honest about the environment.
I also got the company to raise all of the
engineers salary a minimum of 10% when I convinced
them that we were going to lose most of them. This
was an unbelievable boost of morale. But a stupid
company doing one right thing still can't save the world...
Ok, here's the deal. You don't lose loyalty by asking for a raise. That's expected. You won't get one without asking. BUT, asking for a raise is different from threatening to leave. If you were unhappy with your current salary, you should have talked to your supervisor about it. If they can't, or aren't willing to give you a raise at this point, then either change jobs, or stick it out. Once you actually threaten them with leaving, then that sets the tone for your future relationship and things will most likely (though not always) turn bad. Since you actually interviewed with another company and entertained an offer before talking to your boss, you have made the first agressive step in changing your employer's attitude for you. They now have to worry about you up and leaving at any point. Companies want security as much as you do. You've just told them that you are actively looking for other employment (after only a couple months too!) and are thus probably willing to do so again.
From their position, this means that you either have no loyalty at all, or don't like something about your job (regardless of what you say. Actions speak louder) and will continue to look for other work.
I agree with the posts saying that you shouldn't have to threaten your employer. The moment you threaten them, they look for someone else, even if they offer you a delaying raise. Think about it. If your boss came to you and said "you really need to buckle down and work harder because this project is behind and its really important." you would probabably work some extra hours, read slashdot less, and the like. But if your boss came up and said "work harder or we are going to replace you. And by the way, we have two interviewees lined up at the temp agency." Well, you'd work harder, but you would also start looking for a new job because you aren't secure where you are. Employers don't say this too you because they know that you'd take the first chance you could to get out and gain security.
You shouldn't threaten your employer. Period. It isn't politic. Only threaten them if you have something to fall back on and don't mind getting let go.
my $0.02
Did you buy a Neuros today?
I'll weigh on this with my own situation. I accepted a counter-offer from the company I currently work for about a year and a half ago. I ended up with a large raise and a better position. Also, I have now survived a large (>50%) series of layoffs because management respects the work I do.
In my case the reason I left was because my manager was awful and would not let me transfer to another department. I got an offer from another company that I was prepared to take (even went as far as giving 2 weeks notice and putting money down on an apartment in the new city). My current employer once I gave notice was able to offer me another job in another department because I technically did not work for my current manager any longer.
All things considered, I'm glad I stayed. I love where I am and I love the people I work with. The company I considered going to work for is now nearly out of business.
I didn't have any problems with my decision. Your mileage may vary.
I've worked in HR for over ten years, make no mistake about it if the company thought you were expendable or even easily replaceable they wouldn't make a counter. I've made a few counter offers in my day, most have them have been accepted and turned out to be mutually beneficial. Take a look at these factors if money weren't an object would you leave your current job, can you deal with a certain amount of resentment from your co-workers, and do you trust your company's management to honor your agreement or will they be looking groom your replacement.
Here is the deal. Take the offer contingient upon a minimum fixed term contract (1 year, six months, 3 mo. whatever) guarantee. If they fire you before the guarentee is up, then you get the rest of the contract money anyway. Put in a clause for Contract Renewal, loyalty rewards etc. Ask for everything in writting.
The biggest mistakes most people make is not getting the terms agreed beforehand, and not asking for what they really want. If you get what you want, make sure the employer know that they too can get something out of the deal (loyalty and other intagables).
But whatever you do (either way) don't take the job without a nice contract on paper.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
My recommendation is this: you know your co workers and your superiors, and you know the company. Therefore, you are in a position to know whether you're a valued employee that they really want to keep, or whether you're just a warm body on a project that they'd be inconvenienced to lose right at the moment. If it's the former, they're sincere; if it's the latter, you might find yourself made redundant as soon as the pressure is off. Sometimes even the best companies get complacent and it takes a drastic step such as threatening to quit, to get your needs met. So you should base your judgment on that.
Back in 1996 I had a nice job with a major defense contractor, but working on non-defense related projects. It was fun and interesting but didn't pay very well, and after two years being there I wanted a pay raise. I got along very well with the bosses, and I was a key player on several current and upcoming projects. I had gotten a 10% raise the year before -- exceptional for that kind of company -- and knew that I'd probably get the same this time, but that really wasn't going to be what I wanted.
So I went and interviewed with another, smaller company that was in the same industry. I had no problem landing a position for about 30% more than my current salary. I really had no intention at all of staying with the defense contractor, since I had no real expectation that they'd even want to try and match it. I talked to my immediate boss about it, because I liked her and didn't want to screw her project over. To my surprise, a couple of days later her boss called me in and said they'd match the offer.
I liked the people I worked with and didn't have any fears for my future there; much like the poster of this story, my only real beef was with my salary. I stayed, and everything went well - I was even more surprised when, a month later during my two-year evaluation, I was given a raise on top of the 30% I'd stayed there for.
I eventually left that company a few years later, because the defense contractor was selling off the unit I worked for and staying with them would have required relocating across the country, but I'm glad that I stayed as long as I did. Certainly, the accepting the counter-offer thing worked out very well in my case.
I think the CL1T has been banned. Notice how the last few stories have no CL1T member postings? I think the AC's will rule the day!!!
The only advice given to me that wasn't speculative was that you should definately *not* make a habit of taking (or seeking) counter-offers. In some cases, it will not hurt, but it is often risky.
I took a counter-offer 1 year ago and I didn't loose anything. In my company, the management moves around so much that the people I work for now are different and don't even know about the CO.
In the face of all the advice, you'll have to decide what's best. There is no absolute rule.
--
Sure they're biased, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate all of their points. Hey, the American Dairy Council has an obvious vested interest in milk sales, but that doesn't necessarily mean:
that milk isn't a good supply of calcium
that milk doesn't go well with cookies
that the supermodel on the billboard doesn't look totally smokin' hot with white, creamy liquid on her upper lip
I take drugs seriously.
I work for a very large bank (82 countries large).
My company has an employee salary policy similar to that of the company Dilbert works for. They low-ball anyone who doesn't raise enough of a stink about it. They pay contractors twice what they pay full-timers. If you move up within the company (say, to manager level), you'll see half the salary of someone who is hired from off the street for the same position.
They don't hand-out raises, except the token yearly raise everyone gets regardless of the performance review results. For example, I "acheived" the highest performance rating possible last year; something they only do for people who go 'above and beyond' what is required of them (which most people in the western workplace do not).
I received nothing more than the same raise than the guy in my department who received the lowest possible rating. Why? Because they know I'm not going anywhere.
I work with a guy who has had 3 salary increases in the last year. He's no more valuable to the company than I am. Only difference is, he bitched about his pay and I didn't.
Even with the current state of the job market, most companies don't realize what you mean to them until you're on your way out the door. That's when the pockets get deeper than they would admit to before, when you were the happy-little cubicle rat.
Does the company frown on the guy who got 3 raises last year? No. They know they need him. He may be the first to go when budget-cuts come around, but as long as they know they need him and training someone else to replace him is not feasible, he's safe.
That's the key, maintain your overall value to the company and make sure losing you would be more expensive than keeping you.
"You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake."...Tyler Durden
Accepting a counter-offer is purly circumstancial.
Let's use a simple example. Pretend that there's three fast food restaurants in a town: McDonald's, Burger King, and In N' Out Burger.
Employee #1, who makes 5.50 an hour flipping burgers gets an offer for 5.75 from Burger King. McDonald's realizes that it's easier to pay and extra 25-40 cents an hour then to find a new employee.
Employee #2, who also flips burgers and makes the same as #1 gets an offer for $9.50 from In N' Out. McDonald's counter-offers for 9.50, realizing that they can afford to spend $40 until they get someone new next week.
Employee #3 is the manager who raised McDonald's profits by 30% in the last year. The owner would hate to loose him and knows that good people come at a high price. He matches Burger King's counter offer.
Definitely do not accept, I did this and was laid
Umm... Exactly why shouldn't I do this, again?
There is no magic answer because each situation is unique. If you are not comfortable just taking more money, then ask for more responsibility in exchange for the additional money. This way it's a give and take and everyone wins.
Personally I would take the offer. It's good to know that your current employer had the sense to know talent and how to hold onto it ( most employers don't these days). As the saying goes "It's easier dealing with the devil that you know than the devil that you don't know".
My two bits
Clive DaSilva Email: clive.dasilva@gmail.com Ubuntu 18.10 Kernel 4.18
Once you let them know you're gone, you're poison. The only reason they counter, is that they want to squeeze more out of you than they can for only two weeks. When there done squeezing, they will want to throw you out.
---- "Logoff! That cookie shit makes me nervous!" - A. Soprano
One thing I've learned is that recruiters like to see the market churn. They don't make any money if you accept a counteroffer. If you leave, they collect a fee when you move and they collect a fee when your company replaces you. Sweet.
Sometimes companies think they are competitive when they really aren't. Or sometimes they don't pay people their full value because they think you are content and you are getting a bargain.
How many times have I read crap (even on Slashdot) that says "techies" or "geniuses" aren't motivated by cash but by the work environment or the free Jolt or playing games over the OC-12 or whatever.
Yes, sometimes you need to register your dissatisfaction to get properly paid or gain other concessions. Sometimes they don't believe you until you announce you are walking out the door. If your employer makes a counteroffer it doesn't necessarily mean he's just waiting to screw you when someone cheaper comes along.
YMMV. I just get a lot of advice from recruiters that I should bail out NOW. Understand what their motivations are -- oddly enough, they may not be in your best interests.
No doubt, telling your employer that you're about to jump ship will make them nervous. Its been my experience that its sort of split 75/25, with 75% of the time incurring negative results, and only 25% of the time being positive results.
Case in point: Larger companies know they can replace you with a six-pack of Hindu programmers that will work for rice and curry. Try to avoid lighting a fire under their ass if know you can be easilly replaced. If you feel you're integral to a particular project, try to leverage them very, very far away from the date of a project's completion. If you try to leverage them near a project's completion date, they'll have no choice but to keep you on, but pulling a stunt like that will land you at the top of the list of people who get the axe next time layoffs come around. PHBs dont like having their hands forced.
When it comes to contracting, find a company you feel treats you well, and STAY WITH THEM. The vast majority of contracting agencies wont give two shits less than half a rats ass about you or your career. They are parasitic by nature--they make money off of you at every turn. NEVER accept a counter-offer from another contracting agency. It'll be the worst career move you ever made. Find an agency you like, with people you trust. Show your loyalty to them, and you'll be at the top of their list for reccomendations next time the economy hits the crapper.
And, if you happen to be a boss, and you're reading this: Wise the fuck up. Your employees WANT to be loyal to your company. Playing musical chairs with your workforce is a sure-fire way to show them your company doesn't have it's shit together. If your employees see a 15-year veteran get the axe only to be replaced by some badonkadonk who can't even speak English, can you really blame them for wanting to leave? I saw this over and over again where I worked last. Hire good people, keep good people. Is it really that hard?
Bowie J. Poag
they already know you dont like the place, and will have no problem getting rid of you as soon as your current project is done.
they'll keep you around until you (or they) can tie up a few loose ends, then they'll drop you before you can get in the middle of another big project and start looking for a new job again.
good luck at the new job.
--john
Slashdot: you'll not find a more wretched collection of villainy and disreputable types...
Your most precious asset is your reputation and your credibility. Once lost, you can *never* get them back. Your peers will remember you--and you will see them again.
Also don't try to go back to your employer and say you had a better offer elsewhere in an attempt to negotiate more money! When someone on my staff tries it, I tell them "Congratulations! It was nice working with you, but I understand you want to take this offer," and show them the door.
--
Ask the Ya-Hoot Oracle Anything!
Nine years ago, I accepted a job elsewhere only to have my current employer offer me a nice counter offer, which I then in turn accepted. That decision was one of the toughest of my life, one I don't have any regrets making.
Sometimes management doesn't realize your capability and place you in little niches that restrict compensation and career growth. The approach with a counter offer, may awaken management that you are more capable then the tasks and assignments that you have.
After accepting the counter-offer, my management repositioned me in more challenging and rewarding positions. Tasks that also had higher financial rewards.
Yes the company should have known how to guage people better and determine their skills placement better, but this is the real world. Not all rules are rigid and we are all individuals. Not all decisions are the same, and it is up to us to weight the positives and the negatives.
Good Luck.
Gator/Claria is Spyware.
Who gives a damn? At least he has a job, which is more than can be said for many people in and around the IT industry. I don't think this situation deserved a posting to Slashdot.
Never, never accept a counter-offer! As a hiring manager I've extended counter-offers to key employees only to find that things change dramatically on both sides. The employee gets their ego inflated and most of the time adopts the "Indispensable Man" attitude and the employer (me) wonders every time a long lunch is taken whether the employee is at it again. It usually comes to a head and you're gone one way or the other. Also, don't use the counter-offer as a bargaining chip to the new employer, it leaves a bad taste in their mouth and it's not the way to start off a relationship. If you're unhappy at your current job or if the money is not right then just find a better position and leave.
So, the list says all these things about how your company will resent you for forcing them to make a counter-offer.
If this is so, WHY would they offer it? Why not just say, "congrats and good luck, we'll miss you"?
If their only purpose is to get you to finish a current project you can find that out easily by asking for a large severence contract. If they oblige, then I suspect the list is just social paranoia.
Getting diabetes AND salmonella would be a bad weekend.
Most of these comments sound like they're being posted by people wearing tinfoil hats, and stockpiling food and ammunition. A company is not out to get you, they're in business to make money. If you help them to that goal in a more significant way than other developers, you're worth more. If they were getting a bargain before, they were happy, and you didn't say anything about it. Once you said something, they rectified it. Do you pay sticker price for a car, or do you NEGOTIATE?
I've been at my current employer for several years since I did the counter offer thing. I didn't think I was being paid all that poorly before that, but another company offered me a 30% raise, so I turned in my notice. In matching that, the company CEO had to approve my new salary, since it was well above what they paid for engineers at the time. I've since continued to get excellent raises, stock options, etc. so I don't think they're holding a grudge.
The company currently makes millions of dollars a year off of my designs, so they probably still think they're getting a bargain. I'm happpy, I'm still making an equivalent dot-com boom salary in a non-com company.
Recently two managers were fighting over who got me to work on their projects, which the CEO resolved by calling me up for a meeting and asking me what I wanted to do. I don't think he believes I'm just an overpaid ass who should be the first one out the door come layoffs, but a valued resource that it's wise to keep happy. (FYI, I've survived several layoffs.)
The moral is if you are any good, a company will do whatever it takes to keep you. If you're marginal, the reality is that they probably won't even counter offer, *unless* you're the key resource on an unfinished project. In that case, you'd better make sure you're indispensible...
No one can you tell you that either decision is the only right decision. Think about your job today. Do you like it? Are there things that bug you (like management or salary)? If you had been getting paid this new salary all along, would you have looked for other opportunities?
Leaving because you are scared of taking a counter offer is no good reason to leave. If you have other reasons for leaving, then do so. You also have to keep in mind that you are giving up things like years of service which affect, among other things, how much vacation you have and when you get more.
In the future, you can shop around for salaries without having to accept offers. Ask your friends what they are getting offered. Don't be afraid to ask for a salary range from a head hunter, but keep them honest. Don't be afraid to bully them around a little either, they _really_ want you to take their job so they can get paid. Keep yoursel f in the driver's seat.
When I was agonizing over a job offer, my dad relayed to me what his PhD advisor told him:
Your family always comes first.
Your career comes second.
Your job comes in third.
If it's a large company, you could easily get caught in the grip of some corporate HR policy that ties your immediate management's hands. If that's your case, AND you have spoken to your boss about your unhappiness several times before, it becomes an "look what evil HR made us do" situation.
I took one counteroffer and did not regret it. There was another counteroffer (evil HR scenario) that I did not take and I did not regret it. You weigh the risks and make the best business decision for you.
Either way you take risks (old company lays you off for 'lack of loyalty', new company lays you off for 'lack of seniority', and so on). Make it a business decision and take the best return on your (time) investment while minimizing risks.
I've only gotten a counter-proposal once, two years ago. I work for a very large HW manufacturer. I approached my boss two years ago with the fact that I could not afford to stay. I layed out the exact situation (my wife had to quit for medical reasons during her last pregnancy) and said that I knew company policy and wasn't trying to push.
I got an immediate 10% raise (just enough to survive) and the promise that if my performance continued on its current vector, much more would be forthcoming.
I got two promotions in two years and my salary has increased by 45% since then. Maybe I just got lucky, but I sincerely doubt a good company would react the way that list suggested.
As a manager, I tend to worry about the compensation my employees receive once or twice a year, unless compelled to care due to something like this.
Would I counter offer? Very possibly. Could any of my employees use this? No. Some people are drones, some people are stars. If a drone makes noise, I'll discuss their performance and suggest enhancements that can lead to raises. If that isn't good enough, I wish them well.
Are you all saying you'd think ill of someone doing this and screw them? Are you attributing to malice what should rightly attributed to ignorance and stupidity?
"... but you can love completely without complete understanding." - Norman Maclean, "A River Runs Through It"
If you have the offer, what you can do is negotiate with your employer for a higher salary without telling them that you actually have another offer. That will give you a more reliable gauge of how much you are actually worth to them in the long term. If they are not meeting your expectations accept the other job and resign a few days later (it is both in bad taste and counterproductive to throw your resignation at them right after failed negotiations for a higher salary). If they make a counter-offer at that point, you then know that it's because of their short-term panic, not because you are worth it to them.
I was making something like $10,000/year. I walked into my employer's office one day and said "Ok, I'm out of High School, I'm not going to college, I need to make more money!". And he said I had to earn it. So I do the exact same thing I've always done and find my salary was increased to about $25,000/year.
My colleagues were making far more, so I decided to hunt for another job. A company offered me $45,000/year to start, a raise to $60,000/year in 6 months if I proved valuable. I delivered my resignation to my boss.
Boss counter-offers with $60,000/year, plus other perks (tax breaks for him). I ended up staying.
100+% increase in pay that only came once I gave my 2 weeks. To say that I felt used was an understatement, especially since I had requested a raise earlier and he gave me this whole story about how he'd love to pay me more but I had to earn it.
One year later I ended up quitting for real and started a computer consulting firm of my own. I'm a few months from hiring an employee to help me, and I'm sure my past experience will be a valuable lesson on how not to treat employees.
Just what goes for critical in your book. "He complained that the lights don't work right, the program crashes the computer all the time, the tools are from the 1980's and so is most of the hardware. Boy is that guy critical." IS that what you mean?
After I found out that a coworker at an old crappy place of employment was making 50% more than me w/o as much experience, I consciously played the counter-offer game. I got the raise I wanted, and life didn't change at all. Still the same crappy place, but no worse. All that happened was that I had a bigger paycheck.
I ask this question because frankly I'm not convinced about the correct answer, but is it really better to have business relationships that are not personal? It seems that this is one thing that distinguishes american business from the vast majority of the rest of the world. That may be why we are by far the richest and most powerful country in the world, but I wonder at what price?
How many corporations do layoffs in the interests of boosting stock value? That is the ultimate in tossing away personal relationships in the interest of the business. Surely sometimes a business has to cut staff to save the business but there are countless times where a profitable company cuts employees in the interests of increasing shareholder value.
It just seems to me that this immense detachment from personal relationships in business might really be doing us a lot of harm in the long run.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Most people leave a job for reasons not associated with salary, then justify the move with "they offered the big bucks". But you have said there is no reason to leave associated with the location, work, prospects, fellow employees, boss, etc. So your case may be different...and only you know the truth.
... have 3 employees who made cases still here 3+ years later. No resentment on my part.
The job you have you know warts and all. The job you have been offered has been sold to you.
The question I'd ask myself is (since the salary is now equal) is are the intangables in the new job better than the old job? If they are, then you should go. And if they aren't, then why should you go?
As a long time hiring manager, I don't resent it when someone presents a calm well reasoned case for more $$ (and a offer is powerful evidence). I look at the worth of the employee to the company and I decide if I should pay them that much...for reasons of productivity and potential. If they are really leaving for other reasons, I try to learn from that to see if the problem is them, me or the fit between us. Is there something I can learn from this person.
Come to me with an offer that is more than you are replaceable for and I'll wish you well.
Done it all the ways
Now figure if your management is going to feel the same way. Hard to do but may be very important.
How well have you checked out the new job? Talked to potential fellow workers and not just the boss? Asked them what the worst possible thing about working there is? (I insist anyone I interview ask that question to at least 3 of the people they might be working with and I encourage the answers to be private. That way I get people who are coming for the right reason and who have realistic expectations, ones I can match).
Good luck.
been doing it for 35 years...
I have always thought of it this way: if you are worth a 50% pay increase to keep, why didn't they offer you a salary increase on their own initiative? I have always regretted staying with the old firm when I have accepted a counter offer.
It's the american way: "take this job and shove it"
when you take a new job, it is always a dice roll. but think about this: once you accept the counter offer, when will it be likely that they offer you another increase?
::.. check out some Cell Phone Reviews
The investment banking and consulting analogy probably isn't a good one. In these cases, other companies really want your contacts. What's seen as "recruiting" is actually more like a merger or an acquisition.
Other times, recruitment is nothing but a crippling strike designed to strip a competitor of its key people. In this case, you have to be careful. Once they've achieved their goal, you may be out on the street.
1. You loyalty should always be in question. 2. Like the company who hired you away doesn't know that you werent loyal to the first company. 3. Companies usually begin cutbacks with the most recently hired, so if you go to the oter company the cutbacks are still going to begin with you. 4. No matter which offer you accept, you were still bought. 5. Your company should always be looking for a new person at a cheaper price. However, the very fact that they offered the counteroffer means that they can't. However, the counteroffer could mean that they want to keep you on long enough to hire someone else at a salary between your old and new. 6. There should be other indicator to examine to tell if you should stay or leave. Did your present company seem happy to give you extra money to stay or hesitant or resentful.
You sound like a boss I would like!
What is it you do?
No regrets. My situation was slightly different in the fact that it was very near review time so I had to wait until the review to see what they would come back with.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
Many companies will make a counter-offer and not feel that they are being extorted. After all... if you have been with them for a considerable period of time, how much would it cost the company to replace you, both in money to a recruitment firm and in time spent bringing any new employees up to speed.
They are merely protecting the investment they have made in you and securing your investment in them.
But after all that.. it usually boils down to what your gut feeling is. Barring unforseen circumstances, you can usually trust it...
There is serious debate going on about the approriateness of milk as calcium source. There are three major questions, the first is that milk doesn't have the same balance of minerals as our bodies need, and therefore someone using milk to ensure that they have enough calcium in their diet may end up being deficent in other minerals, it's much better to eat a well balanced diet which gives all the minerals from a variety of sources. The second question is how available is the calcium in milk anyway. With the majority of adults being lactose intollerant, many people find it difficult or impossible to drink enough milk to make a significant difference to their diet. The third is of course the high percentage of fat, sodium and potassium, all of which tend to be already in our diets at too high a level.
"...a recruiter contacted me with a very nice potential position - I interviewed... decided I was interested... [I was] extended a counter-offer with a matching salary, thereby eliminating my only reason for considering the other job...."
The arguments for refusing a counter-offer are strong. But they may not apply in your situation, where a recruiter found you rather than you actively looking for another job.
How much effort did you put into the interview process with the other company? Was it a lark? Something to do with an empty weekend? Make some assessment of how much you cared whether you would get an offer. If you cared a great deal, then chances are you should take the offer. To do otherwise is to be second-guessing yourself.
Look at the other side of this, too. What is your current employer's policy on job reviews? If your manager merely pushed your annual review forward by 6 weeks and was able to use your job offer as a justification for doing something he thinks is good for the business (such as retaining a valuable employee), then the problems with staying on are going to be relatively minor.
If you do decide to stay on, you and your manager should work out what changes in your responsibilities go along with the increase in pay. There needs to be such a change. It does not need to involve an increase in your daily workload (at least at first): formal recognition of something that you've already taken on in an informal way would be excellent. Or it could be something like the role of technical advisor to policy decisions. But there needs to be something that clearly shows that your raise is related to your future contributions to the company, and that the outside job offer did no more than spur along a process that was moseying toward increasing your responsibilities anyway.
If management balks at this job redefinition, then it is certainly time to move on.
I used to work at a major defense contractor.
:-P). I looked at the situation... I had a hell of a lot of seniority (I'd worked there for 17 years), but on the other hand, I was pushing 40, and I had a "now or never" feeling. I gave them my regrets, explained that it had nothing to do with the company, and that while the counter was generous, I really felt that it was just time to leave. No hard feelings, I was told that if I ever wanted to come back, and there was an opening, no problem. Privately, my direct boss told me that even if there wasn't an opening, he'd make one if I needed one. That security blanket was a big help, since I was going to a small start-up.
After two or three layoff rounds, I put my resume out on the web... didn't think too much about it, because I was happy where I was. About 6 months later, I get a call from a recruiter. I get an offer that's about a 20%.
My then-current employer offered to match (sans options, but I wasn't counting on those
I had a friend who accepted there a counter 6 years ago, and he's still there.
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
left a company only to return after a few weeks or even years for roughly the same pay and position;
If you leave a company, only to come back for the same pay and position, why would you have left in the first place.
Yet another reason not to trust anyone
http://www.hotsalesjobs.com/candidate/counter.htm
Overall it looks like to me, by the stats, you're best off leaving.
If you have already accepted the job from your new employers, from an ethics stand-point I don't see what choice you have but to leave. It sounds to me like your company is fairly lousy anyway. Cutting your pay because of a "dot com bust" and then when you leave "oh you're worth more than we thought."
If they had to cut pay, how much longer will they stay in business anyway?
And as other posters have mentioned, if you leaving will tend to help your career. You will be in a new environment out side of your norm which will help you achieve new heights. Of course, if you want the norm and the status quo, and don't think your company has been abusing you, you should consider the counter-offer carefully
There are a lot of other factors to consider... I was making $5k more base pay at my last job, but it was 45 minutes away. My current job pays $5k less, but its a 10 minute drive. How much is my 1hr+ a day of lessened commute worth? How much did I save on gas & wear&tear on the car?
Both are salaried. The old job I frequently worked well over 40hrs/week (60... 70 sometimes) for absolutely no more pay. But, on the flip side, I got two salary increases in a year, both 10% plus. The new job, I'm lucky to get a 4% raise once a year.
I took the new job to be closer to home and have more time to have a life. But, the people suck... the old job was a much better environment, even with longer hours and a longer commute.
Money... money to me is not particularly relevant. Sure, to a point, more money is nice... but, at this point I'm keeping my eyes open for something else, even for a little bit more.
I happened to have left a job where the counter offer was not matched, it was $15k above the offer. Of course, I realized that it is unrealistic. I got all sort of BS that i was valuable etc. I still left since i didn't like the work and some people i was working with. I think when you stop liking what you are doing, it's time for a change. Summary: Don't let the counter offer clout the other factors that made you look out.
I had the same thing happen to me and stayed.
The new company was Global Crossing. Back before they bit it.
My original company was small and the new
company was huge, seemed to have great benefits, bonuses, etc. However, I would have to commute and
the new company didn't counter the counter offer.
In addition they were kind of vague about job responsibilites and their stock price was dropping steadily.
My friend did that, excepted the counter offer. He got his raise, but all the trainign they promised him turned from instructor lead training into computer based training when they found out the cost. His "official counter offer" only said "training for A+, N+, and MCSE". If a company's taking advantage of you now, they are very likely to in the future, if not moreso since you "almost abandoned them".
it's much better to eat a well balanced diet
That's why I was sure to mention cookies as well.
I take drugs seriously.
#1 it's alway relivant to consider *who* is giving
.com type of
you *what* advice (the devil wants your sole and
the proper angles don't want you to live a full
and meaningfull life).
#2 counter offers are like those ads that say "we
will beat any advertized price for the same
product", except for a few critical things:
a. the product is you (and you're loss leader)
b. there are psychological consequences
c. you're not a unique snowflake
#3 dependong on how your bosses behave, not only
is it better to fire someone than have them leave
(in a purely 'the beatings will continue until
moral improves' manner to keep the local view of
the job market skewed), but there is strong
motivation for this to happen *despite* company
policy.
#4 I believe in punishing a company via the market
they compete in. That's what keeps the job market
strong. Go to a country where the have pseudo
life time/long term employment traditions and
hugely enterenced unions/labor laws (Japan, England, Australia, etc.) and you'll find some of
the most backwards fscks keeping their jobs only
because it's illegal to fire them. Change is
sometimes scary, but change is also sometime good;
one thing is for sure: change is manditory.
If the compnay has been underpaying you, it's your
responsibility as an element of the labor pool to
make sure they learn this the hard way (uh, like
did you think they were going to tell you?).
Some caviots:
If you're a rock-star programmer carrying a
project that is near to term (beta), you might
want to consider your "reputation" within the
industry. Likewise if you're being completely
exploited.
If you have family/special considerations that
require full time employment, you might consider
allowing yourself to be secrewed in return for
security (at least until you can extricate
yourself from that situation)
You might want to consider the people you work
with. For me, almost every time I've switched
jobs the hardest thing has been adjusting to the
people. If you're tight with your current work
mates and you would be transition to a place full
of backstabbers (often times why new "blood" is
brought in), life can suck heavily.
Finally, don't put it past your company to
conspire with your recruiter (remember who pays
the recruiter's bills) that this is a simple
lose-lose situation. "Recruiters" have also been
known to take money for removing people for their
jobs as well. The new job might only be a
stub offer (at a down and going
company) and the counter offer might be completely
disingenuous. If you suspect this (and do your
research a head of time), then you need to accept
a counter offer *only* if it includes a binding
contract that specifies a manditory employment
period and a length of time for which the re-
negotiation is non-negotiable... see a good
employment lawyer for boilerplate on this one.
You should not have to quit to get your salary adjusted to current levels, and most companies recognize this. On the other hand they don't usually go out of their way to give you an adjustment. The company I worked for was fairly progressive, and only one of my pay adjustments happened without much effort on my part (good manager I think). Although I'm focusing on pay, there are a lot of other considerations that you should not forget too.
The rest of the times it took a lot of effort. You can start off playing the game by the rules. Make sure your actual job duties match your formal description, since that is how they determine the salary range. Expect to be doing the actual work of the next level for a year or so before it get recognized. Find out the pay range for that level and where you fit in percentage-wise. Obviously, the lower your salary in the range, the more room you have to get an adjustment (also obviously this only applies to large organized companies, my current start-up does not have any of this formalized).
What I often found was that even given a salary in the low range, it was hard to get adjustments. They might appreciate what you are doing, but that was not enough reason. This is where job searching and counter-offers come in. Of the three times I went down this course, twice I had offers in hand, and once I let them know I was searching and my new salary looked to be $xxx more than I was making. I should note I was serious about the job hunting, but I was open to counter-offers that addressed my needs and wants.
Your manager might not like this technique, but will normally be on your side when they consider the pain of replacing you. If your manager (or someone in the chain of command) is not on your side, just go with the new job!
The biggest key to avoiding repercussions is to make sure you don't rub anybodies face in it. Don't brag about it to your co-workers, and don't make this a yearly practice. Try to have some solid figures (this is where a job offer helps, can't get much more solid than that), and get your superiors on your side. That is the way to work for a large company for a lengthy period of time without being underpaid.
take the new gig. NEVEReverever accept a counteroffer. You'll only get screwed. Take my word for it!
-iie1195
I don't know about that. There are a lot of people that are but I don't really think it is higher than 1 in 5. My personal experience is more like 1 in 80 but that isn't the norm from what I gather.
It all depends on the company you're with, and the relationship you have with them. The "reasons" on About.com are very generic and don't apply to a lot of situations.
First of all, if you weren't actively seeking new employment, but were solicited for the job, then you may want to stay with your current employer.
If you had previously asked for a raise and were refused, you probably want to leave.
If the employer realizes at: A) You didn't weren't actively seeking other jobs and B) They know that money was your only reason for considering it, then you have good reason to stay.
This all depends on your relationship with your employer, though. My relationship with my last few employers has been very close and personal, and the money difference would have to be pretty high to have gotten me to leave (this isn't why I left any of them, by the way).
My general opinion is that enjoying your job should come before the money. It's easy to find a job that pays well. It's hard to find a job you really enjoy. But that's just my opinion.
Well, I accepted a counter offer. Basically, I was offered a job I had applied for before I worked at the current job. Things moved around there, and they got back to me. With such a significant pay raise, I mentioned it to my boss, and told him why I was about to accept the offer. But I was telling him out of loyalty.
He countered, and beat, the offer. I then worked for about a year and a half until I got cut in the first round of layoffs (most of the IT department was). I'd say I'm happy I accepted the offer. It was for a small company, where we knew each other, and where I wanted to work. As long as the people you work with and for understand the situation, I'd doubt that there'd be any bad side.
If the company is in the control of people that you don't "know", you may be taking a risk by accepting the counter-offer.
Have you read my journal today?
There is no right or wrong answer to this question. Every employer acts differently when placed in a situation where someone that works for them is about to walk out. I say if you are happy with the job, the company is secure, you get along with your bosses, and they are offering more money then I would take it as long as my employer and I had a really good relationship up to this point. Most companies are not out to screw people. Someone on here asked why they hadn't offered them more money before. Well, I think the best answer is that companies don't often review what an employee is worth to them until they have to. Most of them hire people in at market value and then have a set compensation schedule where they get reviewed once a year with a small raise. Most don't pay attention to the job market until it's time to hire or they need to keep someone on that threatens to leave. I bet a lot of people in the tech industry are being overpaid right now in relation to what someone with their same skills is getting on the job market. I know I am and I'm keeping my mouth shut about it. Remember, no one owes you anything in this world.
I have taken counter offers in the past. I've also been given counter offers and turned them down because I felt that I knew the employer well enough that if I stayed my name would be mud and I would never be considered for promotion. Do what your gut tells you and remember that it's only a job.
As above, but with links, done with HTML Kit, a free HTML editor:
Here are a few articles written by/about TJ Rodgers (Cypress' CEO) and/or about Cypress:
On Jesse Jackson (towards the bottom): http://www.reasonvsracism.com/essay_race_century.
http://www.cypress.com/aboutus/press_release.cfm?
Regarding affirmative action (to a Nun, no less):
http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/summer96/0241.ht
On Second Harvest Food Bank:
http://www.cypress.com/aboutus/press_release.cfm?
Solar Power:
http://www.cypress.com/aboutus/press_release.cfm?
He also had an interesting piece in the May 20th USA Today regarding frivilous lawsuits, but I can't find a link to it anywhere.
Of course, first you need to look at the environments. How much do you like who you work with, do you know anyone at the new job, etc. Benefits and other, non-dollar, factors are a part of it. However, for the sake of this discussion, look at it as a pure money thing. I see little reason to not accept a counter offer. You get the money you wanted (which is prob why you were looking in the first place) and you don't have to start over. Are far as being fired, looked at as trouble, etc. Well, companies don't have loyalty to the employees, they are about profit, so who cares. If they are going to lay-off people, they won't keep you because they like you, it is all about the bottom line. So, of course if you take a counter, you are making more and more likely to get let go then you were (with the same skill set, but costing more). They keep you if your skills are important to the work the company has. You personal relationships with your immediate management has little to do with being let go or not. These choices typically come from much higher up. It doesn't matter how much they like you, but how much your skills are worth to the company. I've been at 3 jobs in 5 years and they have all been fairly similar (one as an infrastructure IS guy and 2 as a programmer). You make friends, get to be confortable, etc. They all have politics, problems, and a mix of happy and unhappy people. If you change jobs, you won't find some glorious perfect place to work, you'll find a place where you need to rebuild the relationshps you had. Of course, this is all moot, because you rarely change jobs because of pure money. Often people change because they are unhappy with other factors (stress, kind of work, etc). Then you have to ask, how much is that worth to you, because these things won't go away with more money at your current job. Of course, these things exist at all jobs. Last time I changed jobs, I didn't even look for a counter (would've gotten one I was told later). And I took a small pay raise to get away from a place I didn't like. While I would've never taken the counter. I should've at least gotten it and come back to the new place to let them big over me. It is all about the money in the end, one company is much like another (small to big, I've worked for a 30 person to a 15,000 person company). -T
"It depends" seems to be the only truly correct answer. I was fairly happy at my current job, but wasn't getting enough money, and wanted a chance to expand my horizons a little. Well, I got another job, gave notice... and twenty minutes later, had a counter-offer in my hands, which I accepted. Not that I disliked the other company (I didn't), but I liked my current one, had a good user base, and a good boss, and between the $$$ and the promotion (it was largely a chance to expand into Unix), I stayed, and have never regretted it... except for telling my would-have-been new boss that I was staying.
-Ken
That's nothing. An Atlantic Monthly article once compared Bill Gates to Satan.
Forget all the stuff about whether its good tactics to accept a counter offer or not.
I would welcome the opportunity to go and work somewhere else. Different people, new experience and so on.
To me, it is the way of employment that people should move around a bit. Especially when you are younger.
Tim
Bull. I suppose companies cancel layoffs because they value loyalty. In fact, accepting the counter shows you are loyal because you are staying with the company.
But I never accept counters. If I leave, it is rarely over money. More money won't fix the problems in a bad situation.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
Everybody who looks at the reasons (Which have a bunch of merit) has to see the about.com banner. You'd think that they'd take that down.
Anywas, that site seems to have been created on their own... it wasn't a user page so the popularity breeds popularity doesn't apply.
Bear in mind that those reasons for not accepting a counter-offer are being publicized by a company that has a vested interest in people not accepting counter-offers. :-)
but do it because it is what you WISH to do.
KHAN!!!!!
My personal experience is that I received an offer that was an 18% increase on my salary at that time, and I had just had a salary increase 3 months prior, so I wasn't expecting another one, so I went to my boss, who was one of the company's owners, and explained the situation. I was completely honest with him, explaining that I was not unhappy with my job, nor had I been looking for another job, but this opportunity found its way to my Inbox, and it was such a good opportunity that I had to at least consider it. I told him I hadn't made a decision yet, which was the truth. He asked me how much I had been offered, and I told him truthfully, and without hesitation he offered to match it, with a comment that he had recently been discussing with the other owner the fact that they both felt I was underpaid, so this was a perfect opportunity to rectify that situation. I considered this, and decided to accept his offer. I received a counter-counter offer for a mere 2.5% over the previous offer, which I promptly and curteously turned down.
The important points in my story are that this was a small company, where management treated employees like human beings, not human resources. Everyone knew everyone else fairly well. As a result, I believed him that he genuinely felt I deserved the salary increase, and I had no concerns about the future of our relationship, personal or professional. He knew I was simply faced with a business decision to go elsewhere, and he made a business decision to try to keep me.
A year and a half later, another generous offer found its way to my Inbox, and I ended up accepting that one. The company was not doing as well financially by that time, so there was simply no money for a counter-offer (in fact the company's first ever lay-offs happened 2 days after I left), but even if there had been, I would have felt strange going through that process a second time.
So, you have to guage your relationship with the company and your employer, as well as guage what type of person your employer is. If he's a vindictive sort, he may fire you the day after you accept his counter-offer. There are far too many vindictive idiots like that in the business world. But if he's a good business person, he'll realize that you are simply doing what's in your best interest, and he will do what is in the company's best interest, which will likely be to try to keep you.
"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein
i've never had a good outcome when accepting a counter offer. usually the company that's making the counter offer is just trying to keep you on until they can replace you. if they don't replace you then you'll probably not get very good raises for a while unless you start looking again, and that only works so many times before they'll replace you. chances are if you take the other position you would end up making more after 6 months to a year anyway. ice
How did you handle the resignation speech with your current boss? Obviously well enough for him/her to counteroffer, but did the offer seem compulsory or was there some true feeling behind it? Are they begging you to stay or was it, as someone else stated, made out of professional politeness?
I think your relationship, now that the offer and counteroffer are on the table, should weigh more on your decision than what a website told you. Look at culture at both places and go where you'll be most comfortable, since $$ isn't an issue anymore. It's about the people and the work at this point, and who you trust your career with more.
I think the key is to make it clear to your current employers that you'd prefer to stay, but don't see how it is financially viable. I suppose it depends on your relationship with your boss, but I didn't have any trouble.
It might have helped that I told my boss I thought I was being underpaid at my previous review (and got a significant raise then.)
I may have had a particularly understanding boss and VP who I had a good relationship with. But, I think if you make it clear to them that you know you're being underpaid, and prove it to them, they'll accept it without holding a grudge.
This is simple, if you liked your original job, you should come to them BEFORE accepting the new one, and ask them to match the offer, then is up to you.
What you can never, EVER do is to stay, after you agreed on the new job, belive it or not, world is too small, and you will hurt A LOT your reputation, sooner or latter this will hit you back!
That's the mayor con.
Atherwise, if you haven't yet agree the new job do as you please!!
Your current company cut your pay during a down time. Now they only offer to raise your pay because they're forced to do so, because it's the only way to hold onto you. In other words, they could have been paying you more, they just didn't want to. What's to stop them from cutting your pay again in six months, or laying you off when they find someone else who'll do the work for less than you were making before the counteroffer? After all, if they were into loyalty, would they have cut your pay in the first place?
I once accepted a counter-offer. The counter offer was about 20% higher than the other company's offer. It was a no brainer when you're talking about the amount of money involved. As part of the counter offer, I asked for a year long "contract" in which I had to give 30 days notice to leave, and they had to give me 8 weeks. (This is pre-dot com bubble pop, and I could surely find a new job in 8 weeks.) I stayed around for another 18 months, and eventually did leave because of personality issues that can't really be resolved with more money. I made out big time by accepting the counter offer:
1) I drastically increased my percieved market value so I could ask for more money in future interviews
2) I made out well money wise, more that the original offer.
3) I got some actually job security out of the deal (8 weeks is better than most severance packages)
Of course a Headhunter is going to tell you to not accept a counter offer. They NEED you to accept the new offer because that's how they make their money. They'll push you into a pigeon holed job with no advancement, no challenges, etc in a heartbeat. Anybody whose naive enough to believe that a headhunter cares our YOUR interest is wrong.
A trooper is someone who does the work assigned to them, if there is a problem they'll try and solve it quickly before seeking managements help.
A whiner is someone who always finds something to complain about in every assignment, allocation, announcement, etc.
I've never been a real titled manager but I knew the difference immediately. You also have climbers, people who want to make things better and bring lots of suggestions, I'm one of those. The problem is trying to be helpful and constructive with out coming across as a whiner. Considering TV/movies tend to promote whining or atleast always have a whiner in the plot its a constantly observed behavior even away from work. I've found that if your not careful its easy to pick it up as a common and expected behavior, it starts to seem the normal way to bring up a problem. Rarely do they show people calmly, carefully and thoughtfully bring up an issue with solutions.
The really hard part is when you've discovered a problem, carefully explained it and possible solutions, and they tell you there is no problem.
Keeping a calm, careful, and thoughtful outlook after that encounter is difficult. Especially if its a problem that affects you directly day after day.
I am offering up a rebuttal to the don't accept the counter-offer article.
"You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question."
Any employer expecting loyalty from employees is an idiot, and any employee with corporate loyalty is an idiot. How many companies are loyal to the tens-of-thousands of people laid off every year in the US?
"When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not."
Certainly. The employer will remember the losers without the courage and initiative to make clear their wants and needs, as compared to the strong-willed people who are not afraid to get what they want. Who would YOU want to promote in the cutthroat business world?
"When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you."
So? Are you really less likely to end up on the chopping block anyway?
"Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought."
Companies are in business to make money. You go to work to make money. "FUCK PRIDE."
"Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?"
If you get screwed on the next raise, just walk away then. You will just get bigger offers the next time you leave.
"Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price."
If the company wanted to do that, would the counter-offer really even be made?
"The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer."
Not likely. Employers know who stays and why. If you make it known that cash is your motivation, they will know better than to try and keep screwing you.
"Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high."
Statistics? Who doesn't know the joke about the statistican's answer to 2+2=x?
"Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance."
Or you might gain respect for having the balls to show some initiative. If your peers don't accept you over something like this, fuck them. Just remember to backstab them after your initiative gets you into management.
"What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?"
Most of the companies on earth.
You know, this may sound silly, but I had the same situation not long ago, and ended up taking both jobs. I explained to both employers that I had a contract opportunity that I needed to pursue in which I needed to work earlier/later than usual (at either job), and got away with it for two weeks. It was a complete bitch, pulling 16-20 hour days, but I learned a lot about both companies...it was a golden opportunity.
(I was able to VNC into both jobs from the other, they weren't more than 10 miles from each other, and it was all good.)
What I learned (aside from the fact that two CS jobs aren't worth $200k/year) is that the new job I would have taken was prime to overwork me, there was lots of disorganization, simply too much to do, and the expectation was too high. I also realized how great I had things at my current job. I was happy to come back, and have realized that i can be much more productive there.
It may not be a possibility in your case, and it's rather tricky (you could get fired from both), but it worked out great for me. I'm happy where I'm at.
I gracefully quit the second job. Of course, not without an offer of a 25% pay raise (they were quite happy with me) and a pleading call from the CEO of the recruitment company. I explained truthfully what had happened and that I simply didn't like the new position.
Any sufficiently well-organized Government is indistinguishable from bullshit.
You should never accept a counter-offer. The company is going to feel that you are disloyal, and will probably find a reason to let you go eventually. And they know that you are antsy and will leave on your own, anyway. And, be honest with yourself - if you are not happy there, you are going to leave eventually.
The counter is usually used just to keep you there long enough to complete current work so that you will not leave them in a lurch.
Do be fair, and give whatever you feel is fair notice. Offer to complete current projects, if that would go beyond the conventional 2-week notice, and negotiate with your new employer to be able to do that. This will score you points with BOTH employers.
Finally, use the counter-offer to obtain a better offer. Let them know that your current employer countered. If necessary, to save face, accept some small token improvement in the offer. Do insist on something. You may be surprised at what they throw your way, though.
When I was in a similar position, I choose not to accept the counter-offer and left for my current employer (now 4 years later...)
As with just about anything, your mileage will vary.
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
i) BTW, make sure they know that you are happy with the position, except for your current salary. No one will deny you that.
ii) Don't listen to these commies on /.
iii) wear a suit and tie
:wq
At some places of employment, the only way to get what you are worth is to get a job offer and threaten to leave.
Early in my career, I did this, then accepted the counter offer by my then current employer.
There were never repercussions due to my perceived disloyalty. It was, in fact, the only way to get a raise in that organization.
(Actually it was a promotion AND a raise)
Some bosses play hardball. You need to know who you are dealing with.
I was perfectly prepared to take the new job, so I had little to loose.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -- Albert Einstein
"Independent newspaper", isn't that an oxymoron ? like "microsoft works" and "military intelligence" ?
-Billco, Fnarg.com
The reason I ask is I'd like to apply!! ;-)
I started in the field doing consulting, and since I moved to full time, both places I have worked at pretty much burnt me out in four years (each that is.) If you truly do treat your people the way you state, then VERY BIG KUDOS to you sir!
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
If you had really thought they wanted you that bad you would have asked for a raise earlier. I would take the new job. When a company counter's like that they have a horrible habit of thinking you are money hungry. That means if they get a chance to replace you they will. They counter in the meantime because they don't want to have the position unfilled. Never deal with the counter offers.
Do not under any circumstances accept the counter offer.
Number One: The company thinks your no good or you're a wussy - otherwise they wouldn't be underpaying you so much. The counteroffer is just a way of insuring that you'll stay around until they can replace you with a new coderbot mandroid. Anyway you cut it, you have defied authority: you were a substandard coderbot before but now you're a outright deffective coderbot. Most likely, you will be replaced as soon as possible in order to make example for the other coderbots.
Number Two: Don't confuse making money with doing business! Hey...you know and I know that it is wise business (i.e., makes good financial sense) to pay good people what they are worth in order to insure they are happy and, consequently, stay productive and with the company. However, when the hell have most business decisions been based on doing what is financially sound (i.e., saving and making money)? I mean, look at the freakin' execs and upper management running companies today - do you actually think they really give a shit about thed money? Ever heard of the Dot Com bust? Enron? Etc? It's the power that management craves and you have been a BAD CODERBOT for you have defied authority. Therefore, even if getting rid of you were somewhat disastorous, they'd still do it in order to make a point.
Number Three: Want to be humiliated in front of your co-workers? Go ahead and stay! Now that you're an over-paid, authority-defying coderbot you will be made an example of before your peers in as many ways as can be engineered by management and then you will be fired for poor performance, bad attitude and overall laziness. Count on it.
Number Four: Do ya' really need any more reasons not to take the counter-offer?
That list of reasons is bogus. It is written to favor employers, and pretty much all of the reasons can be turned around. More on that below, but, first, I'll discuss two components of the decision: ethics/etiquette and pragmatics.
I wouldn't advise seeking other jobs for the purpose of increasing your bargaining power. It may be ethical to your current employer, but it isn't nice. And it isn't ethical to the recruiters, who put in work (some of them, anyway) in the hope of getting paid. (You could maybe fix that by finding a recruiter who will work for you in exchange for payment from you instead of from employers.) However, these don't apply in your case, since the recruiter approached you unsolicited. If you do take the counter-offer, you might want to thank the recruiter by referring them to anybody you know who is interested in new opportunities, or vice-versa, or maybe even by offering them a fair payment.
As for pragmatics, it depends on your situation. If you are just in a situation where the employer needed you, but you could be replaced, then it might be better to go to the new job. But if you are a star and are professional, you could remain where you are with increased respect and power. Push came to shove, and the employer backed down, so you know where you stand. The decision between these two is up to your evaluation of the situation.
Back to the list. The list mentions loyalty several times. In most companies, there should be no loyalty of employees to the company, because there is none in return. Only if the company has demonstrated it will stick with the employees in hard times or entered into a binding contract to do so should employees be willing to have any loyalty to the company. Remember, a company is a business, not a person. Do not give a company the considerations you give to a human being.
The list says your employer will know you are unhappy and your "loyalty" is in question. In other words, your employer will know you have requirements and evaluate your own self-interest, like any other strong, responsible business person. The list says your employer will remember who is "loyal" at promotion time. In other words, your employer knows they have to compensate you fairly; they cannot rely on you to complacently sit in a low-paying job like most employees.
The list says your employer will cut you when times are tough. But your employer's counter-offer proved they need you, they know it, and they are willing to pay for it. You don't cut needed employees who are worth the money; you cut the unperforming wastes of money. If things get really tight, you ask the stars about pay cuts, which should be in exchange for future consideration when things get better.
The list says accepting a counteroffer means you were bought. No, it means your services were bought. That is what employees do; they sell their services for money. You don't go to work for a company for fun. It is a business deal; there is supposed to be money exchanged.
The list asks where the money for your raise comes from. It comes from the value you provide. The wage guidelines can be adjusted for good performers. The list says your company will look for somebody cheaper. Really good employees are hard to find, and it takes time to bring new ones up to speed. Replacing any employee is expensive; replacing a good one is stupid, unless the money is out of line. But it can't be out of line if that is what the market is offering, and how could they hire somebody good cheaper if that is what the market is offering?
The list says the circumstances that made you look still exist. But that doesn't apply in your case; the circumstance of low salary is changed. The list says, without attribution, there is a "high" probability of leaving or being let go soon. What makes us think that isn't true anytime?
The list says your co-worker relationship will change. If word gets out, your co-workers will know you are a valuable employee. It is nice to be respected, and it gives you power.
The list asks what kind of company has to be threatened with resignation to get what your worth. Most kinds. What kind of company wants to pay money they don't have to? Companies give low increases because most employees stay put even though they could get more elsewhere. It is a business deal.
Take the counter offer and you'll walk into work one day, be shuffled off to a small conference room with two guys named Bob asking questions like
"what would you say you do here?"
The company that's offering to take you away has probably budgeted your salary. The company you're working for now may well not have and are likely more concerned with the short term effect of your leaving (e.g. deadlines, the pieces of the project you own, etc.). When they look to trim the fat next time, you may well find yourself hit with the downsize stick.
BEWARE THE BOBS!
I'm a friend of a friend of the working class.
I think there are several items that need consideration here:
First, since things are up in the air, you'll naturally be excited, even panicky. Don't just latch onto the first opinion you read; do your research.
Second, consider the source. This URL you gave is (as mentioned by others) from the website of a recruiter. Even informative websites have motives.
Third, think carefully. Were you actively happy at your old job, or just not really upset? Have you heard anything about this new company? Talked to anyone who works/worked there already?
Have all your information in order. There is no need for complex ethical analysis of the situation: you're doing what's right for you. If that's moving on, go. If that's staying where you're at, stay. I don't really believe that company psychology is as vindictive as that web site suggests.
Would you tell your employer what the lowest pay you would accept is?
Why should they tell you what the most they would pay you?
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -- Albert Einstein
I give mad props to your boss for finaly standing up for his peeps, this got him fired, ouch. My bet is that had he stood up for his peeps sooner he would have (suprise surprise) gotten fired sooner and made exactly no difference at all.
Oh yeah and always bolt for the door.
I used to have a cool sig, back when I cared
Maybe in the world we live in today those two words don't go together, but I wish the could.
Not only can you drop out of a deal with a new employer, but they can drop out of a deal with you. No doubt apologizing profusely.
Until you get it in writing, it ain't real. Sometimes even then.
=brian
Since you didn't do that, though, I'd say the bridge is burnt and you need to move on. As others have said, it is the responsibility of your company to pay what they think you are worth. Companies that pay what they can get away with get what they deserve and shouldn't be too surprised when their best talent bleeds away and they deal with high rates of turn-over.
Companies shouldn't expect loyalty from employees because they certainly offer none in return. But the blind fact of the matter is that they do think in terms of loyalty and right now, you're position is compromised. If you stay, like as not, they'll be looking for a replacement--frankly, they've probably already started and you staying on isn't going to stop them. Too often, counter-offers are just a way to mitigate the expense of turn-over so that they are in control and not you.
Note that my comments apply to 90% of companies out there. If your company is truly an exception, by all means take them up on it. If they've done things in the past to take care of employees and truly meant to pay you what you are worth, then give it a shot. Be very skeptical, though, if you don't have already established evidence of exceptional committment to employees.
Wind Son
Never take a counter offer...99.9% of the time you'll get burned.
That said, I actually took one once...but I liked and trusted my boss, he had given me fair raises (without me asking) throughout my three years there...and the new job would have involved an hour's commute each way from my home (as opposed to 15 minutes).
A year later they transferred my boss, and the counter offer was the last raise I ever got there (I worked there for two more years)...even though during that time my responsibilities doubled (more $$ = more work?).
SEE? It doesn't work!
Back in January, I got recruited for a new job. In the year there at my old one, they had doubled my responsibility and workload, with no increase in salary ("it's not in the budget"). I liked my old boss and gave him a month's notice (we were in the middle of a major construction project). I was thanked by them refusing to pay me my accrued vacation!
The guy they hired to replace me (at a $20 K raise; they couldn't find anyone who would work for them at my salary...and ain't it amazing that more $$ suddenly "appeared in the budget" all by itself?) has another 50% more work then I had...he's been there two months and is ready to quit.
Never stay..always go!
Accept or don't, it's completely up to you based on how you feel about the relationship between employer/employee. I personally feel that it is the employer's responbility to demonstrate their level of obligation without needing to be manipulated by their employee. An employer that does not consider the value of an employee without be coerced is either a thoughtless employer or a disrespectful employer. Either way, I personally don't like working for that type of employer.
If you think you'd be the kind of employer that would milk your employees, rather than work ethically with them, then take the counter-offer.My advice? Never pay heed to generalizations...
When considering advice, always consider the motivations of the giver.
In this case, you post a 'why not to take a counteroffer' list, from somebody who benefits from people looking for jobs. No offense, but Duh. It's in their best interests to encourage people to take the listed positions rather than sticking w/ their existing jobs. In general, very few people on the web will benefit from you sticking with your existing job. But, many people (headhunters, job listing sites, new employers) would benefit from you being willing to switch. So, expect lots of advice that you should be willing to switch jobs.
In general, you can live life according to the script others try to get you to perform, or you can write your own script. Remember who has your best interests at heart - only you.
is competition good, or is duplication of effort bad?
In some cultures people make up stories about getting a job offer precisely so their boss will consider a pay raise.
They do this because asking for a raise directly can be interprited as rude. Try not to ask for a raise in Japan. Seek out a new, better paying job instead and casually mention the situation to your boss. He will get the message.
Stick with your job and accept the pay raise. Changing jobs to "be polite" doesn't make sense.
That's a huge difference in my world. If you wanted a raise you should've asked for one. If you did and didn't get one and that's what motivated you to go through the process of the interview etc. then my advice would be to leave. I don't know about you, but i would feel like sh*t. If you're boss thought you were worth the extra money, he would've gave you the raise. To me, it may be an indication that the other company is doing better financially. If you're making (50% increase) less then what you're worth - move.
I have not read other people's responses, but I think you should not accept the counter offer.
When changing companies you have to be sure in your mind that you are making the right decision by joining the other company.
In general, I think you can never use the excuse of salary. You have to assume that your current employer will match any offer.
Given the market conditions today, if you indicate to your employer that you have accepted another offer, then there is no turning back. Your employer will see you as an unstable person.
I recently did the same thing. However, salary was not an issue and I wasn't going to bring it up.
Loyalty? That's so old school! Unless you are in sales or management, you are just a cog in the wheel. You are a cost of doing business.
Loyalty is punished..just check out the W-2s of employees that have been in your company over 10 years (if there are any).
You have two decisions: maximize current earnings, or maximize future earnings.
Ask yourself: am I a star? Really? Does your management shower praise on you constantly? Do you have lunch with the CEO, high five and joke with him? If not, forget maximizing future earnings because you are just a cog in the wheel.
Now, am I saying that you should leave where you're at? Depends. The reality is that the only way skilled workers get a bump up to their market value is by counter offers. Many stay and do well..and laugh all the way to the bank.
If all your present company is going to do is match your offer, leave. Why? Because that's just cheap.
Disclaimer: I'm now a 1099
If the company has to offer a counter to keep you it suggests a few things:
1. They didn't value you enough while you were there.
2. They need to be strong-armed to do what's right.
3. If they aren't paying you what you are worth then they were screwing you for as long as they good. Very unethical. And common.
Do yourself a favor - leave and don't come back. Just make sure you will like your new environment.
The boss here was of the opinion that an offer
from another company was your real value.
Anything less is just speculation.
(I say was because he recently retired)
"The company HAS NO LOYALTY. They have NO FEELINGS. They are NOT concerned for your well being."
;)
Exactly.
Don't EVER let your emotions get in the way of your career decisions. There is nothing wrong with taking a counter-offer. In fact, there's nothing wrong with taking a counter-offer, and then 3 months down the road, leaving for a better position.
Your company will never care about how you 'feel'... or how you will 'feel'. They only want you if they NEED YOU.
I can't say that I would know how to deal with this situation because I recently (2 months ago) started a new job and before that was unfortunately laid off with very little.
Though, to me it would seem that a counter offer would be like a surprise pay raise. All the talk of loyalty is really a double edged sword and a double standard, if anything at least a double perhaps a triple standard. Employees are working for money because the monetary returns they gain from working helps to provide for themselves as well as their family (should they have one). Companies are constantly figuring out ways to boost profits so that investors and upper management can get richer. At the same time, companies are constantly trying to find more efficent means to produce goods and services so that profit margins could be expanded.
The bottom line is that loyalty is something that is earned and the fact that you were made an offer from another company could be just as bad as the current company not paying you what you deserve. It really is all in the perspective of the ones who views the situation. Perhaps the fact that you made them aware of your offer was a gut-check to the management that 'hey, we need to do something to keep good help around.'
At the last place where I worked, I was fairly happy with what I did and how much I received in compensation. If I had any gripes, I wouldn't waste a minute to not let my manager know. Unfortunately, it was not my manager's idea to let me go and I know that it was something that he didn't want to do because our group was very close knit. Just like a family.
Unfortunately, the economics of sustainable living from having money comes into play and this principal also applies to companies that want to stay afloat. So it all just comes down to how you play the game (as my debate partner once said). Like some of the posters mentioned, you should make the other company aware of your counter-offer and maybe they will offer you a counter-counter-offer.
Good luck in your decision.
The following tends to apply most strongly to higher level jobs, but still...
If you go thru the whole job process to the point that somebody makes you an offer, you've given them all the signals that you will go work for them if the offer is reasonable.
If you verbally accept the offer, you've made that verbal commitment.
Seeking, much less accepting, a counter-offer from the old employer, means you've done an about-face. You've just jerked around and wasted the time of 1) the recuiter(s), 2) the hiring manager and other people at the hiring company, and 3) all the other people who applied for that job and were turned down/put on hold, because they offered the job to you.
So frankly, to go all the way to get an offer and then bail out, makes you look like at best like an idiot who doesn't know what they want, or worst like a machievellian person who just wanted a job offer to threaten his current employer into upping the salary.
If you do this at the executive / higher job level, people get REALLY pissed off. You've made them look bad and wasted their time, after they went to the trouble to place you as the frontrunner.
At a lower job level, it all depends on the circumstances, how much effort was spend in recruiting and hiring you, etc.
Just wanted to remind you...what goes around, comes around. People have long memories when they believe (rightly or wrongly) that they were misled.
a story.
An American employee working in Mexico at the time was doing the excact same thing you describe to a, obviously, Mexican employee.
After explaining what was going on the Mexican employee said something to the effect of, "You know, you are prostituting yourself".
The response was "True, but we all prostitute ourselves...the good ones know when to change pimps!".
Funny, but true...you gotta know when to say "Fsck it" and move on.
There is a reason you started looking in the first place...so I suppose I fail to see why this is an issue.
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
If the company you are working for is nice and you have a good relationship and your only reason for leaving was the pay, then you might stay. If you don't really trust your current employer,t hen you might be best to leave and learn some new things (but possibly jump into a bad place) on the new job.
Your current employer might expect a bit more out of you though if you accept their counter.
Look at the spirit of it. If they are just trying to get something finished I'd beware.
I was working at a Dot-Bomb that I knew was soon to go under. I accepted a job at a company that has been in business for 25+ years. Admittedly, I am making a little less (4K) than what I was making at the dot-bomb, but the pay covers all of my expenses plus some. The problem was, when I left the old job, many of my coworkers were laughing at me for leaving a very sweet counter-offer behind. Three of those people just asked me for a job, given that the dot-bomb just missed their rent payment. Bottom line is, company stability means a lot more than big paychecks in this economy. Anthony B. Kenitzki
I think this is probablly off topic, but thought I would post it just for laughs. Chris Rock once mentioned this in one of his acts.
"Do you know what it means when they pay you minimum wage? It means that if I could pay you LESS I would. BUT it's against the law."
This actually happened to me, and I stayed and took the counter offer. Turned out to be a good thing -- the new prospects went out of business a few months later. They sure sounded good, but in the end, my then and present employer is better. The grass isn't always greener -- but do what is best for you. Don't care about anybody but yourself, that's the name of the game. Sounds harsh but it is the truth. In the end, it will be just you anyway.
1) Your present employer (possibly) thinks you're underpaid, but has decided not to tell you or to let you at least have the cash. Or even something near it.
2) Someone else thinks you're worth more.
3) You feel underpaid.
If you're stupid, you will take all of this (except 2) personally.
Don't.
Unless it's an extremely small company, or some strange situation where you see everyone else driving expensive cars while you trek in via moped to eat saltines for lunch or something, usually you're not alone.
Usually, when you look around, you are underpaid like everyone else. I say this from experience (fwiw, I don't feel all that underpaid now, and I've been in the industry for over a decade).
A long time ago, in a job far far away from this one, I was such an employee. I felt underpaid, and I was. I was the admin for a Unix network in 1988-89. I remember getting extremely fed up with the management of the company, looking for a better paying job and finding it in no time.
I still didn't burn any bridges (hey, the hired me back as a consultant at like 1200 bucks a day on several occasions). But when I left I was extremely, extremely angry with the company and the system. I felt that they had singled me out peronally to pay me less than I was worth. There was an engineer there who was making more $ than I was -- he had threatened to leave, and had accepted a counter offer.
He stayed, and from what I saw, never moved much above where he was when I left.
I didn't threaten to leave. I left with clenched teeth -- asked if I would consider a counter-offer, I declined to even see it. I was pissed.
Looking back, I have but one regret: That I wasted precious cpu cycles being pissed about the situation. The place was extremely hard to work for. It rewarded its employees rarely. It had long hours and the emotional morale was ammong the worst I've ever seen anywhere. Period. I say this from authority because as a consultant I traveled all over the region, stepping into like companies -- without exception, they were the worst.
Of course, I didn't know it at the time that I left. What I thought at the time was that these bastards had worked me like crazy, I had a slave driver for a boss who didn't appreciate my computer skills (etc, etc, etc. Whine Whine Whine).
This isn't to say there weren't good people there -- there were. Most were "lifers" -- people who would more or less be born and die at that job.
All I can tell you is that I've never really looked back and regretted leaving.
Back to the main reasons why you shouldn't accept the counter:
1) It will, regardless of how you think of it now, always be something that management remembers about you. No matter how much your immediate boss may feel otherwise, or your coworkers -- the odds are extremely high that some stupid manager or some bean counter will remember having to make an exception for you. Better you should leave, and have them attempt to get you back at a later date and time -- and yes, this goes on all the time.
When it comes time for raises, you may likely be passed over for someone else. When it comes time for promotions, they may decide to stick it to you.
2) You will piss off the new employer -- possibly burning a bridge to a new experience. They will likely look at your attempt to get a new job as simply a way to raise your current income.
3) You will miss the opportunity to prove to your current employer that you are actually worth the cash you're asking. Take the job, and it's a mute point. Stay, and some stupid doubting thomas in management will likely sit around questioning your worth from time to time.
If/when you decide to come back, and this is a likely scenario, you will have a higher worth because the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, and guess what side of the fence you're on?
4) You will forgoe the chance to find out "what it's like out there". Rather, a new experience.
New experiences can always be counted as good, even if they suck(tm). I've recently did a tour of duty at a job that blew big chunks. It was like getting a ticket to the Titanic or something.
I still had a great time meeting new people. I learned some new technology. I saw a different reality. These people had done things differently than I had ever seen them done, to great negative effect in a lot of situations. Mostly, I had a lot of my beliefs about Free Software questioned by these people, and mostly, from my experiences seeing the stability of their environment, the ammount of crap they put up with, and the bills they paid -- mostly, I had my beliefs greatly confirmed. I walked away more confident and sure than ever before, actually.
I walked away after a layoff, extremely happy, because I'll never work there again. I got some paid vacation. It had been a long drive, the hours were long, I was on call 24x7. I still made some good friends, and I had some good times -- regardless. You can't buy an experience like it, in other words. So don't sweat the bad times -- in the IT world, they can be over in 10 seconds. Embrace as much diversity as you can stomach -- pay attention, add tools to your "IT Toolbox", and move on when things get shitty. They will sometime, always get shitty. Maybe you don't live on the Planet Earth, however, so this last saying may be wrong for you. Anyway, finally, try not to get emotional about it. People are morons. Some are bigger morons than others. Believe it or not, I've seen complete morons in IT management that are actually *afraid* of automation. Completely, totally affraid of it. That made them afraid of me too. Did I take it personally? -- I tried not to, and in the short time it pretty much worked. I pitty them more than hate them, in other words. Take your skills, keep your resume up to date, and don't depend upon any manager, other individual or organization to help you. You're on your own, in other words. Keep your chin up, take the cash from the new job, and move on. Your career will thank you.
The main reason is quite simple: they were seeing what they could get away with. They were not paying you what you were worth; rather, they were paying you what they thought you'd tolerate. I NEVER work for people like that. You should politely tell your manager, "Thanks for the offer, but why did you not pay me that in the first place?" It's always interesting to see them squirm.
Here's the reality of the situation though: We, as employees, are trying to get the most money for the work we do. They, as employers, are trying to get people to work for them for the least amount they can pay them. For us, we get more money. For them, they get more money.
Why then, when they do it, is this evil or dishonest? If they get applications from two developers, same skill set, but one will work for $20K less than the other, who are they going to choose? Who would YOU choose as an employer?
Paradigm Shift
Two experiences from two different employers.
One, less than a year out of college I got an unsolicited offer from within 50 miles of home. Considering I was now 1500 miles from home, and considering they were offering a 20% raise, I considered it a nobrainer. But my current employer offered me a promotion and 30% raise for me to stay. In the end, I figured longevity at my first job would look better on my resume, and with some apprehension, stayed with my then-current employer. Right decision. 2 more promotions and five years later, I left on my own terms because I didn't like the new projects being handed to the group, and my not liking that wasn't going to change anything.
Then several years ago, I vented at my boss after being asked to give up an already-planned weekend vacation that considering the sacrifices being asked of me and considering the positions and salaries of those around me, I was underpaid. It was not an ultimatum, just a firm statement of opinion. I concluded (in person) that "while this isn't enough for me to go distribute my resume, on the day that I do do that, if you ask me when I first became disenchanted with my job, I will probably say today."
And they apologized, agreed, and offered me a small raise (about 3%) with the promise that this was above and beyond my salary review (due in a couple of months.) And they were good to their word.
There are three things that make me want to work somewhere: 1) The people I work with, 2) The things I am doing, and 3) What I get paid. On any given day, these can be in different order of importance. Whenever I feel any two of them are out of whack, I start looking for a new job. If only one is out of whack, I talk to my manager about it to see if something can be improved. So far, in almost all cases, it could. In those cases when it couldn't, I found a new job and entertained no counter offers, because the counters, I felt, didn't address ALL of my concerns.
Loyalty now is to people, not companies. If I respect my manager I'll try to work with him or her. If I respect my co-workers, I may actually stay because of them. But loyalty to a company is an (unfortunately) outdated concept, because companies are no longer loyal to employees.
And hey, guess what -- I'm not afraid of my managers reading this because I've already had this conversation with them.
If the counter-offer is just to allow them to replace you with someone cheaper, or if he feels you are worth the new rate to the company.
Ask for a 1 year (minimum) contract and provide an assurance you won't jump ship.
Be prepared for a higher work load. TANSTAAFL. You'll be expected to be worth more than the guy one cube over. ASK for more work if possible, or more responsibility. Suggest ways the company can improve, but only to your immediate boss. Be prepared that he'll take only the ones he likes and most likely will take credit higher up the food chain. Don't sweat it, eventually your enthusiasm will be noticed.
If you won't be happier working harder at the same job, than at the new one (big unknown that is highly subjective) then don't accept and jump. But, express your reasons to your old boss. Really, when not done in anger, honesty about why you are leaving is a good thing.
- Tjp
I am in wallow with my inner money grubbing capitalistic pig. ... Oink!
If it would cost more to hire and train a replacement than it would be to give you a raise, then I wouldn't worry about being canned unless some manager just took it personally. I guess it depends on how valuable you are to the company. Many tech departments are understaffed as it is and if you're already doing the job of 3 or 4 people then its going to be hell to replace you. And as far as that link abotu your coworkers hating you or something...I guess that depends on where you work. Where I would we could care less about if each other leaves...in fact, we'd be congratulating each other for finding a better job...and if you stay, then we'd actually probably be showing you sympathy
I'm in HR in a High Tech company, and just wanted to give some perspective for those making sweeping generalizations about "well if you're worth more, why isn't your current company already paying you that?"
Reality: Because sometimes you're not
Sometimes when you get an offer from another company trying to hire you, they offer you X% more than you are getting (or X% more than current market value). Wow - these people must know that you're worth much more right?
Wrong - Don't let your ego make your career decisions.
You'll enter that new company, and when the time comes for salary reviews you'll be red circled. Your raises will be miniscule until you're in the right salary band/range again. You're only gaining a little in the short term, which doesn't mean much when you consider all the costs and inconveniences that may come with moving to your new job. (This could also happen if you force your company into paying you more than you are really worth because they need you for a specific project and have no choice - then you also have hard feelings to deal with).
Of course, your new employer could just be throwing money around. There was a company in our area that did this to lure employees from other area companies by trumping their old salaries (which were very fair). This kind of hiring is unsustainable (and possibly indicative of their business practices). They've now laid off more than half their staff.
If I can give you any advice at all, it is to TALK to your employer about where you are unhappy (money, job, boss, etc) BEFORE you get another offer and put them on the defensive with "or else" negotiations. You're much more likely to get things resolved in a realistic and amicable manner. We've done this many times, as occasionally we do make mistakes and overlook someone when they should have gotten a raise (or need a change in job, or have a poorly performing boss, etc).
If your employer really is being unfair, find a new job that offers you what you want with a fair salary (and don't look back).
If your offer sounds too good to be true, it most likely is.
(On the flip side, we've made initial offers to potential new employees who've gotten counter offers from their current employer, and then expect us to counter the counter offer. Not going to happen. As a rule, we have a policy to be honest and fair about our initial job offer. We offer the best we've got up front, and if that isn't good enough, too bad. We want people to choose to work here for reasons beyond an over inflated salary.)
If you KNOW you get along with everybody and everybody gets along with you, the only reason you're considering moving is the money and they match it, and you like/love your job I'd stay. One other thing is that staying where your at is alot easier than switching jobs. If you have had any sort of problems at your job(being late, bad attitude, personality conflicts,...etc) or if you know that the company isn't doing well financally then I would take the offer. At my current job I would probably stay since I get along with everybody(small company, only 6 people), I'm respected(I'm the only IT person here), and I really enjoy what I do but saying that I've never been in that position. I used to think money before happiness but that all changed at my previous job where, even though I was getting a good salary, management sucked(got along with my coworkers though) and the work environment stunk.
Every situation is unique. therefore you must use your own instincts to determine the best outcome. However, it has been my experience that most companies will ask you to stay just to allow them time to find a suitable replacement at a cheaper price. This depends on where you live. My area job market is flooded with immigrants who will work for less money than I will. I this case, I can never expect a counter-offer. The extent of employee loyalty in this area is limited to the lesser of evils. Therefore in my area, I would never accept a counter-offer because I could only expect to stay around until a cheaper replacement can be found. It doesn't matter how important I am to the company. An employee who does a half-assed job cheaper than you is more valuable.
They're using their grammar skills there.
Anyway, IT headhunters must be one starving bunch right now, don't you think? Betcha they just swarm around /. like vultures, looking for prey.
First, a general note: Many companies are remarkably unaware of the going rates until departing key employees enlighten them. Hence counteroffers occur because you showed them the hard way that they miscalculated your market value before. If everyone is adults, that is probably all there is to it. If your boss isn't emotionally adult, don't miss an opportunity to leave...
* You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
Loyalty??? How 1950's... It depends on the company culture. If they bothered with the counter-offer, either it isn't too big a problem, or else they really, really need you to stick around while they hunt for a replacement. Better understand your own company well enough to tell the difference.
I am assuming here that you repeatedly told your boss the salary was inadequate _before_ you started looking outside. If your outside jobhunting was a complete surprise, whether because you never asked for a raise or because the boss is an idiot whose forgotten all the times you showed him salary surveys, etc., then you'd better get out, because you have pissed off a powerful idiot...
* When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.
You expected a promotion on top of that big pay raise?
* When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
Or maybe if they needed you bad enough to make the counteroffer, you'll be the last one they lay off. But usually in a real crunch the question is not you, it's whether the work you are doing is still vital considering the product lines they are dumping.
* Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
If there's any chance your boss is as childish as this, by all means get out. If you are as childish as this, I hope it wasn't my company that made that offer...
* Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?
Whether you can expect continuing raises beyond the counteroffer is a question you must ask. However, in most companies wage and salary guidelines matter only as long as employees believe they are a reasonable excuse for not keeping salaries competitive. They'll tell you they can't give you a raise because of the guidelines, but it's just an excuse. If they really can't break the guidelines to hire and keep the people they really need, you should have been looking for a new job a long time ago, because this company is doomed to death by bureacracy.
* Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price.
Maybe. If you work on a project by project basis, they might be just stringing you along to the end of the current project, but otherwise, if they thought they could replace you they'd have said goodbye already.
* The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
If you were looking for other work because of working conditions, don't even think about counteroffers. (Unless it's to promote you to CEO so you _can_ fix the problems.) But if it was just about pay raises, just make sure the counteroffer is big enough that you won't need another raise before the next merger/split/reorganization/corporate bankruptcy makes it irrelevant anyway.
* Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
Source? I can make up statistics too.
* Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
Refer back to what I said about loyalty. Your office isnt like a Little League team, I hope
* What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
A typical one. That's partly because so many companies don't know what their employees are worth until they have to think about replacing them, but also it's in the fundamental nature of commercial negotiations. You are selling yourself. In any negotiated sale, a person who lets it be seen that he isn't willing to walk away is going to get screwed.
To go back to "loyalty": in this context, it's a trick to put you in the ready-to-be-screwed frame of mind.
Well you obviously entertained the idea of a new job, and because of that you shouldnt accept the counter-offer. For some subliminal reason you are unhappy or you may know but don't want to say. Either way you truly won't continue to be happy at your job knowing that, somehow they came to the enlightened attitude that you are worth more money, that you are valuable, and you will always have that haunting feeling of what if?
There are generally two ways in which an employer looks at an employee...
1) As a commodity, a service that the business owns and can milk for any and all skills that the person has at whatever rate they feel like paying. In this case, pay is based on "get the most you can for the cheapest price." These are generally the bargain-basement companies that have nasty reputations in the industry, high turnover rates, etc. They often let people go without a counteroffer, knowing that they can replace this person with a newbie for $15,000 less per year. This type of company does not focus on training and rarely technology, and often thinks of its shareholders and profit margins first, prone to layoffs and a low stock price, no matter what "changes" are made to "better" the company.
2) As a business, another organization with skills and brains to help take the company to a new level. The company is hiring this organization (you) in order to increase productivity, efficiency, profit, growth, etc. The company respects the employee as a valuable part of a team, and the employee could certainly be called a "business partner." These companies usually give large raises and bonuses based on performance, leave doors open and inform staff of newly developing opportunities for partner growth. Their benefits are usually better because they are quite aware of how each employee is an integral member of the team that makes the company tick properly.
Those are the basic two kinds of employers. When being counter-offered, companies often can only go so high due to budgeting and pay scales. In the case of pay-scale limits, it is always appropriate for you, as an employee, to work with the employer to create a "new" position or title in order to be paid what the market (or your skills) say you are worth.
Often times, this is called a "variance request."
Today, I am actually meeting with my SVP (in 2 hours) to propose a variance request for my position. Not only am I underpaid per the market or in general, but I have taken on more duties that are not associated with my original job description. In this case, if the SVP does not want to or cannot provide me with ample compensation, I will propose a change of title/position. Many people feel that coworkers will be offended, e.g., but in reality, there is nothing wrong with keeping the new title and/or position a private matter, just as long as it is approved and on the company's books.
I view my employer as the type #1 above. Today, we will find out how much they are willing to transition to a type #2 company.
The SVP has been bantering about employee retention, so I'm going to test his true feelings on the matter.
Remember, though, sometimes when you go job shopping and then go in to tell your boss, they are counter-offering you because they had no idea that you were leaving, or they might have made a mistake in overlooking a superstar employee. A counter-offer is their last chance to keep someone that could truly be an asset to the company.
My $0.02, to be tested at 4pm CST today.
-RH
The 'offical' figure is 50 million Americans. However, this is non-evenly distributed, with non-northern European descendants it's 75% to 90% (details here). Around the world overall, it's 70% Of course it's not a binary condition, and different people will have more or less severe problems, so what level you call tolerance is going to be quite arbitary.
First, most people don't quit a job because of pay alone. There are almost always other reasons for the discontent that led you to think of getting another job. If you fail to express all of your misgivings or if the counter offer doesn't actually manage all of your misgivings, it's not a good idea to accept because you simply won't be happy.
Second, you can ask for more money without letting on that you're looking for a new job, and if you want to avoid hurting your reputation, don't ask for money with a threat (give me the raise or I'll quit). The way to phrase that you're unhappy with your pay is by making a value case (I directly produce value X for this company, and I don't believe that my current pay reflects that contribution. Perhaps we could re-examine my salary?).
However, if it's entirely about pay, the counter offer does get you the pay you want, and you don't think your reputation has been hurt by the now public job search, go ahead. It's rather unlikely that all of these things are true, but if they are, stay with a good thing and accept the counter offer.
Regards,
Ross
Do not accept the counter offer. If they thought you were worth the money they would pay you the money. What are you going to do when it comes time for another raise? go out and find another job offer so that they can counter again?
If you accept the counter offer, then you'd better be ready to kiss their butts, because their opinion of you will change, along with their impression of your loyalty. In effect, by accepting the counter offer, you will be owned.
The first chance they have to RIF you, they will.
Eric A. Stephens ericastephens@mycingular.com
I have accepted a counteroffer twice with good results. However, both times it was the following situation: I had just recently been hired as a contractor and had only been working there for a month or less. I told my company about the other offer, and in both cases their response was to offer me a raise and also a permanent salaried position. Since either job was pretty much still an unknown quantity, I went for the counteroffer, and it worked out fine. But since I'd so recently been a jobseeker, they didn't know if I'd continued looking after they hired me or if the other offer was just a late result coming in from my previous search. So my "loyalty" was not a factor. This may have made it slightly less risky for them, and for me.
It's that feeling your boss gets right around raise time, or when a cake project comes up, when it's time to hand out extra tickets to the playoffs, or when your boss decides who to lay off first.
While I'm sure it's not in your contract, the subtleties of it should be on your mind.
Just my $0.02.
If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
I am the Director of I.T. for a medium sized investment bank. When an programmer or systems administrator gives notice, we either let him go on the spot, or counter him. When we counter him, it is to reduce our operational risk while we find his replacement. They are then fired.
I agree with the posters who say it will ruin your current relationship with your employer. Start fresh and have no regrets.
Ideas in this comment are smarter than they appear.
I considered moving to another company within Silicon Valley when my company wasn't doing so well. When I told my company I was leaving, they made the usual counter-offer (to match the other company), and I accepted. It's now five years later and I'm glad I did.
I don't believe in counter offers much. I went to an old employer and asked for a well deserved raise and was told no. That they didn't feel that I was worth what I was aking. The manager actually told me "If you had another offer on the table, then we'd know you were worth that much." So, I went out and came back with another offer. The guy chuckled and matched the offer cause I had played his hand and won. Well, I simply used my new salary to turn around ask for more money from the next job and left shortly after that.
A lot of times, they'll counter offer so they can keep you on until they can hire your replacement at their pace.
BEWARE THE COUNTER OFFER. I would only consider it, if I asked for a raise first and was turned down.
I'd say it's okay to do it the first time it happens. Just don't make it a regular bargaining tool to get raises.
The first time it happens, your employer will likely think, "Hmm... Looks like we're not paying you enough." After that, (s)he will just think you are playing games and you'll start to lose all respect.
By the way, if the other company counters the counter-offer, feel free to let the bidding continue until someone drops out. Be happy that you're wanted! But, as I said, don't make a habit of this or your employer will get sick of it.
Paradigm Shift Is that grinding gears I smell?
If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Perhaps for some things, but there are usually at least a couple salary surveys for and given profession... and they usually come out pretty similar.
When I left my last employer, I did the same thing... I had received a somewhat-better-financially offer, but the reason I wanted to leave had NOTHING to do with money. Personally, I feel that if you are just working for money, you are doing it for the wrong reason.
In any case, I had grown quite frustrated with this small company (for reasons far too complicated to list here), and nothing was being done to make it a better place to work. When I interviewed at another company and was made an offer, I went to my boss and told him. He sat down with me and said "I have one question; would more money make you stay?". Of course, the answer was no. He had tried to make things better, but he was as frustrated as I was. He knew my answer and was just asking to be polite.
So, I left and shortly thereafter, my old boss quit too.
My personal thought is that if you are unhappy enough to want to quit and you've tried everything you can to fix the problems where you work, accepting a counter-offer from your current employer is just a bad idea.
Someone earlier posted "You were bought" if you accepted the counter-offer and I agree.
People are different wherever you go.
Remember that while corporations have no loyalty to you whatsoever, your boss is a human being. Do you trust him/her? If so, be honest with him about your situation. If you're fortunate enough to have a good relationship with your boss, give him an opportunity to share his experience in this kind of situation. Learn from it.
If you like what you're doing and who you're doing it for, that's worth money. How much do you value your quality of life?
With that said, 50% is a big difference. I was in the exact same situation 8 years ago, at the start of our most recent economic boom (I don't credit the whole thing to dot-coms). I was doing my job happily one day when a headhunter called to offer me an 80% raise to jump ship.
After quite a bit of soul-searching, I decided that I liked what I was doing, but I told my boss that I thought it would be "fiscally irresponsible" of me to ignore the offer. He agreed and brought that up with HR.
I didn't get a counter-offer, but I did get a fat stack of options (which may not be worth anything now, but I already sold 'em!). In the ensuing months, HR took my case as an example to re-evaluate the compensation levels for everyone in my department. Most (definitely not all) of my peers got raises out of it.
Corporations, in theory, are supposed to be all about maximizing shareholder value. Whether they are or not, I'm not going to get into. But is this really the best thing for our society, that's what i'm asking? I'm not questioning how things are, but rather, how is it best for them to be?
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Assuming money is why you are leaving. If it isn't then just take the new job.
1) Ask for a raise. Specify why and how much. If they give it to you, stay
else
2) Find a new job
If you do this in the right order you never have to think to hard about the counter offer. They've made their opinion of you known and it's time to move on.
I don't know if there are some general truths about this situation. If you've already accepted one offer, it's wrong to back out without being totally forth coming and making sure it's okay. If you've signed something then it is out of the question. That's just good business practice there, once you decide and lock in by signing a document then you're in it.
I know a guy who is a top performer at a place, also a mission ciritical piece on a number of projects and he was given an offer. So he prepares to leave, they make the counter and match it, he took it and hasn't got a decent raise in the 4 years since, no more stock options, nothing. They took it personal. They said they couldn't pay him more and then some how they came up with a bunch of cash (the company is doing great, it's not like they don't have money..) in retrospect it is looking more and more like he should have went to that other company. Hard to say. Generally, I'd say it's probably a mistake to stay after preparing to leave but it depends on the place and your relationship with them
Right now there are a number of factors to consider, which company is more stable? Also, there is a question that always get's begged by these situations. Now business is business and it's their goal to pay as little as they can and keep you happy, that's how it is, nothing personal, it's just business and that's part of the game. So first off, have you told them you want more money and you're worth more money? Do they know that it's an issue for you? If they do and they didn't act until the stakes were high then why would they ever give you a competitive raise again in the future without an outside offer? They have shown that they don't want to do that already, it's a strong reason against staying.
Now if they don't know that money is an issue then it's a dead point but that brings me to another subject, make sure your employer knows what you want. They can't give you what you want if they don't know what it is. At the same time they can't hold that carrot out there in front of you but that's a different matter; bottom line is they tell you what they want you to do, you should tell them what you want them to do and have a dialog about it. Tell them you want to get promoted, what do you have to do to make that happen, how can you do a better job, tell them you feel under paid and want to get you compensation in to a more competitive level, what has to happen for the to happen. Now you have to have reasonable expectations to play ball in this game but if you do then you can't lose. Then let them know how they are doing; if they say you have to x, y and z and they'll give you a promotion or some kind of raise and you do x, y, and z but they don't uphold their end of the bargin then let them know. It's something I always try to make clear within the first 6 to 8 months on the job. You don't want to lay down an ultimatum or anything like that but you want to make sure you know their goals and objectives and you want them to know yours. Since I've been doing that a lot of the problems that have been their historically have started to go away, I haven't always got big raises and such but at least my boss knows that's what I'm looking for and we talk about it in those terms. Salary and compensation often becomes a taboo like subject, you're doing work for them and they talk about that every day, that's the work they do for you and it often is only talked about once or twice a year. The relationships have been far more healthy that way. I've had bosses tell me that they know I'm under paid, they want to pay me more, they can't do it, and we've had discussions about whether it's something that they can't do for now and might in 6 months, or if it's something that can't ever happen and I should look elsewhere, or whatever. I've also had places perpetually promise things and I've called them out on it only to find manager making promises they can't keep; like before, time to look elsewhere or get the org chart changed. When you leave a place like that, they know, they know what they could have done differently and it's been pretty good. Now when you have that kind of relationship and they make the counter, you know you can't take it because the integrity of the relationship has been breeched.
Accepting a counter offer lets your company know that you are content to stay in your current job, with additional pay. But you had to lay your job on the line to get it, and this immediately cast doubt on your honesty and loyalty to the company. It seems reasonable to check out the job market to see what your skills are worth elsewhere. But use the information wisely, confront your managers and ask for a raise rather than present the threat of another job. The are good ways and bad ways to get a promotion or raise. It's fairly easy to see which category counter offers fall under.
Back when I worked at the college I was attending, a postition opened in the art department - basically the "computer guy" for a bunch of macs and a few PCs. I was currently a working student, meaning I only made $6.50/hour and couldn't get benefits or tuition reimbursed, but I didn't need a car to get there, either. As soon as the position opened (the last guy was fired) I mentioned that I had a lot of mac experience and I basically started doing his job. Actually I did more than his job, since I was setting up several labs of G4's and new PCs in preparation for Y2K stuff.
I did my job well, accepted the low pay since it was great experience, and applied for the actual job. I was informally rejected because I was young (21) and the art department didn't want "some kid" running their system. So I politely told my boss and his boss that I'd have to start looking for work elsewhere, and they understood - after all, they knew I only made $6.50 an hour.
So, after emailing 10-15 companies a day, I started getting a few interviews. Finally one day I requested a half-day the next day for a job interview, and the school started considering me for the position (they still hadn't even started looking for applicants). Two days after the interview I was offered the position, and I told my current boss. They seemed genuinely interested in offering me the position (which would have been the same pay the other company already offered me), but since they couldn't actually offer it yet I told them I couldn't wait. And frankly, I didn't trust them if they were willing to discriminate by age (and ignore all that I had already done for the school) until I got an offer elsewhere.
As a result or that experience, I'll never trust a company that makes a counter-offer. I also believe in telling the boss you're not satisfied with your situation before you start looking elsewhere, and be as civil and diplomatic about it as possible. If the boss is reasonable then you'll get a good reference or a good raise. If not, then you probably don't want to work there anyway.
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
If you decide to stay, you have gone beyond the handshake level of negotiations. Demand a contract which guarantees 6-12 months of severance pay if they decide to dump you.
The only time this ever happened to me I didn't even consider accepting the counter-offer. It's my employer's responsibility to know my worth to him. If I wasn't worth that to him yesterday, there's no reason I should believe he thinks I'm worth it today.
There are always mitigating factors of course. Startups, for example, often don't have the ability to pay employees what they are worth. That's fine, money isn't all that's important, it's mainly about respect.
If you knew you would be willing and able to pay me more and you didn't then you've lost mine. Call it naivete, call it communism, it's my own personal ethics.
It is obvious that the author and I are very different. Ethical standards always are. It's a contest of ethics...read your own house rules and play.
heh! from your description of the situation, your employee was straightforward about the other company wanting to pay "so much more," yet you balked when he gave you a figure. if you want to pay your people "average pay" similar to what everyone else (who is willing to disclose their salary in a meaningless media survey) is paid, don't expect to find dependable employees who will appreciate how "critical" your project is.
You sound like a PETA mouthpiece to me.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Talk to your employer. This (simple) solution is often overlooked. It is obvious that the whole counter offer thing is bothering you. So talk to your employer and say that you really enjoy working where you are, and would love to take the counter offer, but that you are concerned about being laid off. Try have a frank conversation, and ask if he sees it as a long term solution. Maybe if you talk to him about it, you can come up with a situation where you get a decent salary, and they view you as a loyal employee.
Just my 2 cents.
Unity in Diversity
If the recruiter offered more money than the current job, and you took the newer higher-paying job, weren't you just bought anyway?
If a counteroffer was made, I'd then go back to the recruiter to see if they could do any better. It's always a good thing to have employers bidding against each other for you!
> It's in a company's best interest to pay workers as little as they can get away with. If said worker happens to be one of those quiet non-complaining sorts, it's easy to get lost in the paperwork and never see a raise.
I'm amazed at what passes for "management" these days.
Pay disparity is 1) the best way to eject top talent; and 2) often illegal.
Top talent WILL figure out the pay scales. When they do, they'll decide. If they decide they're getting screwed, they leave. Most often, the first hint managment gets is the resignation letter. Smart one's simply do not accept counter offers.
In today's anti-discrimination world pay disparity is a real risk. Yes, you can play the odds at not getting sued but it can still leave you with an adverse reputation.
There are two kinds of companies. Long term investment, and short term cash-in (dot-bomb).
Short term's need to extract everything they can in a short period. Employees are a needed but exepedible diversion. You burn everyone you can, so talent really has no value. You pay as little as you can to staff for what ever appearances you need.
Long term's are different. The ONLY thing "in the company's best interest" is a longer term view. You have a job, and that job has a specific value. The employee can, or cannot do the job. If they can, pay 'em. If they can't, then train 'em, redeploy 'em, or fire 'em. Rank your people and NEVER let a pay disparity persist anywhere within the ranks.
If your old company were worth working for, they'd be paying you what you're worth. Do you plan to threaten to quit every time you're due a raise?
Anyone who thinks he/she is underpaid, should try presenting the case for a raise to their manager. If the employer doesn't want to give a raise, go looking. (You might find your current pay is OK, after all.) Then if you get a good offer, take it and go. It's not just about money; it's about being appreciated at your true worth, as well.
Personnally, the article contains some pretty weak point on why not to accept the counter-offer. My thoughts as they bear...
1) You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
If he were concerned about your loyalty, you probably wouldn't have a reason to be looking for another job. And what exactly is wrong with letting him know you aren't making enough money? Most employers don't care about you, expecting 2 weeks notice while they are more than willing to fire you on the spot. Loyalty only matters to those who care and most employers DON'T. Their loyalty to you only extends to how
well you do your job. Yeah, you're a capitalist pig now, a disloyal curr, but you were going to leave anyway, right? Whether your a boss or employee, it's all about money. make him some and you've bought his loyalty.
2) When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.
Another non-issue. You obviously weren't getting enough to stay, so what raise was he going to offer you to buy your loyalty? If the past was any indication, not enough to keep you. See counter-point #1 on loyalty issues.
3) When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you
This is quite possibly true. But ONCE AGAIN, you were leaving anyway. And who say you can't still explore other options? Becoming valuble enough to him will also negate this option. I know several people who's employers would love to get rid of them, but dare not because of their special certs or qualifications make the company too much money. Again, loyalty is conditional on profit.
4) Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
How ignorant is the person who wrote this? No $#@! shit you were bought. You were "bought" the day you joined. The author of these assnine points was "bought". It's called "Fee for serices" no matter where you go. it's a fact of life the author doesn't seem to acept, even though he's probably ass-deep in "being bought". Yes, you were bought and there's no shame in it.
5) Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?
Didn't we already cover this? Whatever raise you may or may not have gotten was obviously NOT ENOUGH TO KEEP YOU. maybe you won't get the almighty raise when it comes, but I'd rather have the money in hand over that mythical raise I may or may not get. Besides, would that raise have equalled what you are now being offered? Probably not.
6) Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price
Yep, and don't EVER forget it. Problem with this logic is they are ALWAYS doing this. If you're good enough, this shouldn't be a problem, but on the flipside, why do you think you're getting paid what you are now? Because you are that employee who is willing to work for whatever the boss deems as "cheaper". Maybe he'll be looking, maybe he won't, but considering you're working under that sword everyday without the offer, it's a moot point. On the optimistic side; He didn't just let you go, now did he? You're evidentally valuable enough to keep around for more money.
7) The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
The circumstance in this case is money, or lack there of. If it's going to repeat itself in your current position, it will probably repeat itself anywhere you go. Money is like that. People don't like to give out anymore than they have to. Unless there is a drastic change in the way the competition (where your offer came from) does business, it's going to be an issue no matter where you go. Best I can say here is look at your perspective employers carefully here.
8) Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
Figures lie and liars figure. This may or may not happen, but I'll say it one more time for the entire class... You were leaving anyway. Again, take a close look at the amount of the counter-offer and the people you're working for. One can negate the other in either direction in this case.
9) Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
Sigh. If you making more money than they affects their view of you, do you really want to associate with them to begin with. Your BOSS doesn't seem to have a problem with it. I guess the old addage applies; Put one crab in a bucket and he'll always get out. Put two in the same bucket and they'll never get out, pulling one another down in the process. If neither of those helped, try this one: They would love to make the same amount (and more) than you will. How is that wrong all of a sudden? If that isn't enough, who pays your bills? Medical expenses? You or them? Thought so.
And finally, the number Ten reason not to accept a counter offer...
What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
Probably the same type you'll be jumping ship to if you don't accept the counter offer. Sorry to break it to you, that's 80-90% of the businesses worldwide. This guy must be living in a dream world not to accept a counter offer based on this... It's a rare business indeed that actuallt looks past the bottom line to their employees welfare.
In the end the best you can do is make a judgement call. Was your job intolerable? What are your bosses (and their bosses) history of ethics. Is the increase in pay enough to overlook either of those in the short term? If you see a departure even after the new paycheck, can you reasonably expect to find an equal or better paying job? What is the management of the other comapny like? etc... Whatever you do, don't use the linked ameture's guide in making your desision. Good luck.
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First of all, no matter how much you like your job, it is just a job. You sell a commodity, be it your expertise or labor, to your employer. If your commodity can be sold for more elsewhere, it is perfectly fair that they either pay more, or they don't get it. This isn't the middle ages, and people need to abandon this guilded wage slave mentality.
That having been said, all the advise you will hear amounts to shit until it is filtered through your situation. I checked the link, and I can argue with each one of those points. So here's the deal: If you made it clear to your employer that the only reason you considered leaving was the money issue, then they will *NOT* question your loyalty. However, it will always reflect on you. You will be expected to justify the pay raise with more productivity, and after you decline the other job offer your leverage is gone. Also, you may face some conflict from your fellow employees who are going to be jealous knowing you got a pay raise "just because you threatened to leave".
In all, you may as well accept the other job. In the future, never use the threat (even if you did'nt use it as a threat, it is still a threat) of leaving in order to justify a pay raise. You should instead approach your bosses and make a justification. Your output, combined with your loyalty, and your holistic participation in the companies welfare as demonstrated by your paycut alone should be enough to justify your pay increase. If they say no dice, then you accept the other job offer, give your employer two weeks notice, and move on.
The job marketplace should be as proactive as the economy, but we tend to get ourselves into the "wage slave mentality" that employers are only too happy to exploit. Instead of begging for handouts, employees should recognize the fair market value of their skills, and capitalize upon them whenever possible. In the past 20 years, corporations have abandoned the idea of loyalty, and no longer respect a person for being a "company man". Loyalty is a two way street, and if you can expect to get laid off because management fucked up and doesn't want to take a paycut, then management is going to have to accept a fluid and unreliable talent pool. That's a fair market.
So, the question is, why are you looking? Are you unhappy with the sort of work you are doing, the manager you have, the commute? Or, is it simply that company B is offering more money?
If it is just money, then take the counter offer--I did once. I had a position for a contracting company I didn't like, and not being paid well for it. I did, however, have a good boss. A friend mentioned the gap between what I was doing and what I was capable of (and how it was disappointing me), so better engagements were thrown my way.
However, I had already started looking for a new position. There was more money, and more interesting work (relative to what I was doing when I started my job hunt).
When I went to talk to my boss, he indicated that, as he had been doing so far, I would be moving up in the ranks. The extra money put the positions on par. I took the counter-offer, and stayed. I was being offered more because I would be doing work that was worth more (i.e. my bill rate would be higher).
The best advice my father gave me is "run to something, not from something." I keep that in mind, along with "money is a band-aid." I won't go for less than I'm making now in terms of money, but it will have to provide an advantage over what I have (better work, better managment, better career path).
If they were so quick to match that offer, why were they paying you so little in the first place? Tell them you'll stay if they beat the other offer by 50% and throw in a golden parachute. They screwed you, you screw them back.
Or just say, "Thanks but I'll be leaving now."
This is clearly a question suitable for only the most lofty moral expert. But since Moses is dead you'll have to settle for Dr. Laura!
Since you have already expressed your desire to leave, and have obviously
been searching for new work, I'd say the best thing to do is to take the
new offer. Especially if you have been working for a small company.
I'd presume you have taken time off work to attend an interview?
There are some companies who survive from year after year by recruiting
entry level graduates and just using them for a year (Since they know the
kids will quickly realise what is the "interesting work" and that it isn't
what they are doing. If anyone expresses any kind of complaint they get
tossed and replaced by someone else at the end of the project.
An excellent indicator of this type of management is a company which has
to resort to "bait and switch" tactics to recruit staff. Very often such
companies are desperate to take on experienced staff, but the management
have built up such a bad reputation for retaining staff, that local workers
know to keep away from such companies.
So the only way they can recruit the people they want is to make the job
sound sexy and say whatever it takes to get people to apply. Then when the
new member of staff starts work on the first day, a sudden change of plan
is announced. The individual will be informed that they merely "expressed
an interest" at the interview, and that their technical skills won't be
used immediately. Any complaints and they get fired. Of course, if they
do stay and keep quiet, in the hope of getting to use their skills, in the
future, they will soon find at the end of the project that they have been
taken for a ride. Best strategy, find a new job.
I've encountered the same manager twice in two continents who believed
in this recruitment strategy, and in both cases (actually three, he worked
for a company that I didn't), each company has gone supernova.
This is something my uncle (who worked in the shipping industry, where I work in IT) warned me about. Never burn bridges, because you never know when you'll encounter someone again. He says he's had former employees be his boss, and vice versa after several job switches. One of the reasons I always try to be fair when I switch jobs, and with those I work with.
For example, my current employer is a customer of my old employer. (Old employer is an ISP, current employer has T1s through them) Since I left on such good terms with the people I used to work with, they tend to give me spectacular service when I call them because of a problem with a T1. It's good for them they didn't piss me off when I worked for them, since I'm now in a position where if I was bitter, I could switch vendors on them and cost them a customer who pays them several grand each month.
If you ever become unemployed or are unhappy and are looking for a new bok...Consider that leaving for the new position at another company is job hopping. Employers will instantly throw out a portfolio if they believe that you may be jumping around for more money too often.
Also, take into account that most people are not offered double counter-offers.
"Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early? "
50% is not a yearly raise. The company obviously needs him.
"Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought."
I don't think this applies to this case, and most of the reasons for that matter. Perhaps, a 10% increase; but definately not 50%.
Personal relationships my ass. I can't f*cking stand anyone I work with and so I have no personal relationships with them. They're not my friends and they know it. My personal relationships begin after I punch the clock at 5 pm and get the hell out of the office. I've seen so much backstabbing and backbiting, and just plain out lying and deceiving from all the people I have ever worked with why the f*ck would I want to have a personal relationship with them? Co-workers suck big monster peckers.
Yes, mutual respect is usually lost at the point you're at. You've proved that you're willing to work someplace else, and they've admitted that they've been underpaying you and left you little choice.
Have you asked for a raise and not gotten it? That's a sure sign that you should leave. Not getting a raise when you've asked for one (and deserved it) and suddenly having mgmt come through when you announce that you're going to go work for Ben Franklin can be insulting.
But if you've never brought up the issue of salary before you started putting your resume out (heh) that would be the only reason to take the counter IMHO. Both you and mgmt can play that off without losing face
Another problem with taking the counter offer is that you've proven a certain amount of disloyalty. You will both lose a certain amount of that aforementioned mutual respect.
Also keep in mind that if you're comfortable in your current position, you've got something to lose in leaving it.
I never take the counter offer...it's too late at that point. If you haven't been paid what you and others think you're worth, you shouldn't have to waste your time adn others proving that this is what you're worth. If mgmt is that cut-throat/dense, you probably don't want to be there.
I am in the exact same position right now and I've basically told my employers (who I've worked for for 2.5 years) that I'm sorry, but you could have done more way back when. You chose this when you denied my request, and now you're going to have to spend more $$$ to replace me. No hard feelings.
...Time is the best teacher, unfortunately it kills all of its students.
Disloyalty?!? Gimme a break. Do you really think the employer is thinking, "He owes it to me to stay here"? (especially, if I understand correctly, you've only been there a "few months".)
There are lots of ways employers and employees can betray each other, in a way that might merit being called "disloyal". But shopping around for pay rates isn't one of them (regardless of which side is doing it). The work-for-pay deal is the whole basis of the relationship; it's the reason that loyalty is expected in the first place. Don't confuse cause and effect.
The employer already understands this, unless he's a complete dunderhead. And if the co-workers don't get it, then maybe they've forgotten why they've been getting up in the morning and coming to work.
Take the counter-offer.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Is this really what the "workplace" is about? Are these mature, intelligent businesspeople or a bunch of whining crybabies?
You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy.
Oh, oh, horrors. Whatever shall we do? Someone is unhappy! Please.
From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
Yes, of course. The EMPLOYEE will be questioned. The EMPLOYER of course, gets off without a single word. When prices go up, everyone has to pay them.
When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.
Yes. The employer will remember who is working for half-price so they can be promoted to work for 40%.
When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
Well, of course they will. Employers don't have to grow up and realize that their employees become MORE VALUABLE OVER TIME BECAUSE THEIR EXPERIENCE INCREASES. They are EXPECTED TO BE SNIVELING, UNGRATEFUL MORONS.
Of course they are EXPECTED to fire a competent employee who is in high demand and will likely be working for the competition in a matter of days because they are upset over having to pay them more. Waaaaaahhhhhh!
(stomach churns)
Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
No. They were paid. Big difference.
Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from?
From a happy pink castle in a faraway land, where ponies and flowers dance all day under a smiling sun.
All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed.
Yes. And those wage and salary guidelines were likely instituted by the PERSON WHO MADE THE JOB OFFER SINCE THEY ARE IN CHARGE OF THE COMPANY.
Is it your next raise early?
Who cares?
Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price.
Hope they are as well qualified. Maybe a guaranteed term would be a good add-on to the counter offer. Companies don't pay for someone they can easily replace.
The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
The moon will orbit the Earth again this month. What's your point?
Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
So what?
Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
Yes. So you should suffer for low pay so "Bob" in the next cubicle will like you and save you a donut. "OH NO! I'M NOT A TEAM PLAYER!!!"
What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
I have a better question. What type of company do you work for if they pay you an exorbitant salary starting from day one so you don't need a raise?
Here's a hint: top... level... domain...
Whenever I see the "workplace" described this way, I am reminded of what a school must look like to a first-grader. Everything that happens in the "big people's office" is so mysterious and unknown to them. Everyone must follow the rules and not be unhappy. We must be acceptable to our peer group. "Be a team player now, let Bob borrow your stapler..."
It really is no wonder that corporate offices can't produce anything except more paperwork to justify their budgets. It's like kids asking for new crayons.
Pathetic.
I happened to notice that the "Ten Reasons for not accepting a Counteroffer" were posted by a head hunter (jobs@jobsontheweb.com). Hmm ... sounds suspect to me!!
[Maybe you should go for the counteroffer.]
Chief among those companies:
Microsoft
BMG
Bertellsmann
Sony
Employers will pay what they perceive you are worth. If you are worth what you are asking, then its a win-win. If you are not, then somebody's feelings get hurt eventualy.
Employers also understand that people work for money. Period. While other things (environment, love of the work, etc) do factor in, the primary reason people work is for money. Asking for more is not telling your employer "I am in it for the money". It's simply saying -- "I think I am worth more than you are paying me". If your employer agrees, as is the case here, then you win and they win. Go celebrate.
I'm with the people who say you should ditch your current firm and go with the new one. You should be seeing red flags about the counter-offer. It means that you were underpaid all this time. Plus, there's nothing to say that your employer won't rescind the counter-offer. Once you've confirmed that you're staying, your boss could easily say, 'Well, you know we looked at the budget and a raise isn't in the cards at this time. Sorry.' Meanwhile, someone else got the job at the new firm. The job you *could've* had.
'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
If you're current work environment, is a great place to be, then you should have a good enough relationship with your boss, that long before you get a better offer you've let him know that you'd like to improve your situation. If it's such a great place, they'll be more than happy to work to keep you happy.
Once you've formally let them know, that you've got another offer, and that you're actively leaving, you're dead meat. I guarantee that the next time they are forced to consider "reductions in staff" your name WILL be at the top of the list. Because they know that you're not committed to the company.
One of the admin's here had an offer to jump, and over the advice of both of us in IT, she accepted the counter offer here. Then within 2 months, she was laid off anyhow. And has been out of work for more than 6 months now.
"Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a virtue. Fleas are interested in dogs." P.J. O'Rourke
I can see it is not the norm, but I have had a good experience with a counter offer. In my situation I was working for a school system (so I was not in a corporate envrironment), and I implicitly trusted my boss. In this particular case I was offered a substantial pay raise to stay, and it really did work out. I guess the main thing in this case is my boss and I were friends that mutually respected one another and understood where the bounderies were (i.e. I was not the boss). Again, that is unfortunately not the norm, so don't take this as advice, just as a historical archive.
Cheers...james
Have you tried UNIX today, its most satisfying...
Silly me.
This one is simple. You must leave. Not because they will match or anything like that, but simply because they CUT your pay in the first place.
My experience was slightly different. I could not get along or respect my direct management. I searched for and accepted a position at a different company. When I attempted to resign, they dismissed the manager and gave me a raise to boot. That was two years ago. I never left.
Small snag... the employer almost always has has alot more power in this relationship unless you're in a critical role... which most employees are not. Translation: the employer is rarely the one that gets screwed.
r has
when you're escorted out the door
by security when you get laid off?
Money is the bird in hand. Boss's goodwill
is those two in the bush
Considered harmful.
Most powerful maybe, but richest no no..
According to the World Bank, Switzerland remains the unchallenged leader with $44,320, followed by Japan ($37, 850), Norway ($36,090), Singapore ($32,940) and Denmark ($32,500).
The United States moved up two notches ($28,740) and now ranks sixth, followed by Germany ($28,260) and Austria ($27,980).
The survey comprised 133 countries.
How can what this man says be overrated, especially considering how close the desision might be. Honestly if the money is anywhere close to equal between the two jobs (define close for yourself) then this point is critical! Sure you're making money, but if there are things that will continue to irk you, you should strongly consider whether the money will outweigh the annoyance, be it the boss, a co-worker, the environment or that annoying moderator.
Money is like a bandaid, but only if there's a wound to be covered in the first place.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
I wouldn't have said anything about the new offer, if you a planning to leave then make real plans, and discuss this with your employer as final and make what ever concessions to lessen the blow for them, IE. Staying on a bit longer to train someone else, offer a part time or availability after hrs as a consultant. With the understanding your outta there.
If you have an offer keep it to your self! Approach your employer (privately) asking for a raise don't mention another job. Be honest (but restrict the conversation to things applicable to the current position with them) and say you feel you are worth more, like $X, you'd really like to stay but the current low pay is a problem. (Not as an ultimatum or threat) They shouldn't hold that against you. Either they are willing to go more or you take the other offer.
What ever they say, your response is, "I'll have to think it over"
Don't act fast or rash. Take your time, let them sweat a little.
A second offer on the table is like an insurance policy. I means if your present position fails you have a backup plan.
Remember, when negotiating the first person to speak first looses.
JLS
I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso
I have worked in places that underpay their employees (badly in fact). In my experience, that you should NEVER accept a job with a company that is not willing to give you a fair wage up front -- I learned the hard way. Even with a good counter-offer, the employer has already demonstrated a bad pattern AND IT WILL REPEAT. 50% is an extremely pay jump, obviously they had no problem shortchanging you in the past -- leave, and work for someone more trustworthy.
We've watched as DBA's and programmers pulled the card "I got a better offer at another company". It worked for the DBA, which I heard wasn't the best timing for the move. The DBA knew he was in demand, and to get another replacement it would cost them much higher than he was getting paid. The company did side with him, and gave him a raise to bring him upto market level - which is all he wanted.
A few programmers tried the same approach and ended up out on their asses. The attitude of the company changed drastically.
At the time, the job I was doing, I was extremely underpaid by at least 10K, and that was the minimum. Actually all the admins approached the manager about our concerns. To please re-evaluate our jobs, and job titles. The companies practice was to come up with obscure job titles so they wouldn't have meet any of the market's at the time. (PC Tech, or PC/LAN Admin). After correcting our titles to match the market, Network Systems Admin, they still came across with no pay raise. Even the NT Admins, which is the title they wanted, were told there was NO SUCH TITLE as an NT Admin on any of the HR searches. My response was, uh.. try Monster.com to see the 1000's of NT Admin jobs available.
I was always seen as a threat, because I had a much broader knowledge of computers and networks than my manager (but he knew all the buzzwords and used them CONSTANTLY!). I was admining the NT systems, Unix (Linux/Solaris) systems, and installing a new Cisco switch, converting the network to Gigabit - all this and I was told I refused to WORK with NT, and stated all kinds of lies about my job, all which was denounced by supervisor. So I saved my job for 1 year. Solution - my supervisor was REPOSITIONED to phone support, I was then placed under my Manager. I was then left out of all decision making, and was so-called promoted to Network Admin to upgrade the entire network - then I was fired.
I learned my lesson, to never work for a Manufacturing company again. You are always seen as a liability, never as an asset.
I'm now happily employed by a service company with higher pay, 3 weeks vacation plus COMP TIME! Something that was always promised at the other company but never applied. It different to hear praise instead of scorn. Salary at a manufacturing comapany is an excuse for them to load you down for FREE Overtime - something I was told, we reward on merit! I used to average 450-500 hours of overtime a year, but I was always told - the Network just Runs itself!
"If ever you start to feel like your company actually cares about your welfare I find it helpfull to repeat this simple mantra:
Bullshit! Bullshit! Bullshit!"
I have some experience in negotiations, and I think you (parent post) are on the right track.
Being marked as "disloyal" by your employer is all in the context of your negotiations. If you go out, interview, obtain an offer, and then surprise your current employer with that, then, yes, you will be branded disloyal. You never gave them a chance. Any counter-offer is more than likely a stop-gap to keep you around until your replacement is found.
HOWEVER, the counter-offer can be very different if you do this: First, discuss your grievances with your manager in a sensible way. If they don't get resolved after repeated, gentle, but assertive attempts at resolution you are left with your ultimate weapon as employee: Threaten termination.
YOU SHOULD ALREADY HAVE REASONABLE PROSPECTS IF NOT OUTRIGHT OFFERS FROM OUTSIDE AT THIS POINT. But you DO NOT reveal this to your employer.
You make the threat gently, very reluctantly, with overt expression of how much you love your current situation for X, Y, Z reasons, but A, B, C needs to be addressed. Hopefully, if you are valued, your threat will make things happen.
And this reasoning of "if they counter-offer with more money, why would you work for a company that cheated you to begin with?" is seriously flawed. Anyone with any realistic sense of corporate hierarchy understands this is far too simplistic. Often, your reporting manager does not have a lot of direct say over your salary. Often his/her superiors will not listen until there is a serious red flag from below (e.g. valuable employee threatens). I know employees personally (engineers) who were TOLD by their manager that they can't do anything for them salary-wise unless the employee comes with an outside offer. In some firms, that's simply the threshold for change. It has nothing to do with deception.
The point is, threatening to leave is of course a dangerous and last-resort negotiating tactic for an employee. You have to be ready to have your "bluff" called. However, depending how it is couched, it is not necessarily the death knell for your future employment at that company. Certainly, however, surprising your manager is the worst way to do it. Employment is a funny business where the company assumes loyalty from its employees, and the employees assume capriciousness from the company. You need to be perceived to be filling your role.
I accepted a counter-offer a couple of years ago. Actually im actually looking to leave at the moment, but for different reasons - I want a change in my job that my current company can't offer me.
When I was going to leave, I was offered my new job, and handed in my resignation letter. At that time, I felt I was underpaid, undervalued, and despite talk of 'great changes afoot' in my department, felt that they were empty promises. The day I was to resign, I spent a good couple of hours speaking with the Managing Director - he told me that he thought I was making the wrong decision to leave, and that if he really thought the job I had gone for was right, he'd wish me all the best, because he didnt want people working for him that didnt have their heart in the job.
My company added in a company car as a bonus, and after the counter offer, my pay was roughly double what I had started on a few years earlier, on what was admittedly, a pathetic wage.
Since then, a couple of years later, my pay is over triple what I started on, and I am well respected within the company.
This time i'm looking to leave for a different type of job, and again, I did something i've been told was foolish - I told my company well in advance of my intention to leave. At a company review, instead of pretending I liked my job, and setting goals for the future, I told them this wasn't the long term path for me and I wanted to pursue a new career. I was a little worried I might have made a mistake, but so far, my company has been very supportive, and have offered to help me in any way they can. I think they appreciate the fact that by telling them early, I have given them a chance to find a replacement instead of dropping them in the s**t when there are several large ongoing projects going on.
I'm probably just lucky though!
I've been in the same situation and turned down the counter offer. Either the current employer doesn't know what they had, or they knew it and they've basically been screwing you. If it's the first reason and you think they'll be responsive to future needs, then you might consider staying. If the actual dynamics of the situation haven't changed other than the salary increase, OR if it's for the second reason, then move on and don't look back. Loyalty is a two way street that seems to be pretty much gone in todays job market.
I've seen a lot comments like "they'll never trust you again", "you've proved your disloyalty" and "why weren't you worth that before?". Those comments belie a perception of an antagonistic relationship between the authors and their employers. For them, I'm sure their comments are very valid -- sort of a self fulfilling prophesy. I've seen many cases where it worked just as they've said.
I've also seen several cases where accepting the counter offer worked out fabulously. In these cases the employee/employer relationship was one of wanting to make everything work for both and an industrious effort to make it so.
Just decide which group you fall into, and make the decision that feels right.
A 50% increase in pay may not be worth an extra 20 hours a week.
While I can't say your company is up-front and honest with you (they should have given you decent raises the moment they found out you were worth keeping), I will at least remind you (and anyone else reading this) that some companies offer more than just money. Fifty percent sounds like a tremendous jump, but they may not find that jump so preposterous, depending on what kind of other perks they offer.
Strongly consider what you actually *do* for you job, and what you'll be expected to do somewhere else. If you find yourself with enough time to build your resume and poke around looking for jobs on company time, maybe you shouldn't be.
Winners tell stories while losers yell deal.
I don't know where you people work, Arizona, the "right to work" state maybe. If I took a counter offer from my employer and got fired very shortly after, I would be on the horn to my lawyer and preparing to retire with my wrongful termination settlement. I have always made it clear though to my employers that a mixed calculation of job satisfaction and cash determines if I will stay, and that for enough cash, I'll toss satisfaction out of the equation.
Using "her" as a genderless pronoun? Not acceptable. Please go back to your 9th grade English class to learn the basics of our (i.e., not your) language.
Perhaps he meant the other way of saying laid. You know the one that starts with F. Same act, entirely different connotations.
Interesting that there is so much opinion against doing this. In academic settings, a generally accepted way to press your department for a raise, more lab space, an extra sabbatical, or whatever is to solict offers from other institutions and then ask your department to meet them. Lots of faculty who put feelers out have no desire at all to leave, its just that a principal way your department judges whether you are special or not is whether *other* departments consider you special. If you can't do better elsewhere, after all, why _should_ they give you anything extra?
Of course there are some important differences. This is a game mostly played post-tenure (not by grovelling adjuncts!), and so you can't be fired after this show of "disloyalty"; no risk for trying. Filling a senior faculty slot is inconvenient for most departments. Plus you carry your research with you -- you'll be doing your studies of boll weevil pheremones wherever you are. And it hurts a department's reputation if their faculty get lured away like that.
I'm willing to take a job with a company I don't like if I need the job, but I don't confuse that with loyalty. I mean, most corporations are loyal to their employees up to the moment in which management realizes they might be able to make an extra 25 cents by dumping your ass on the street. I think we, as workers, should have exactly that amount of loyalty to the corporations.
I completely agree. Business IS personal. I started my company. I work really hard at making it a good place to work, a good place to spend time. I let my employees work from home because I know that makes them happy. I get them good health care because I want them to be healthy. I let them take personal days, and make their own schedules because it's very important to keep their families happy. Happy employees mean better work product and more productive people and people who are more willing to make sacrifices when the time comes to make them. I make the first sacrifices when things are bad, and my risk is greater than that of my employees (in a downturn, I lay myself off, but I can't stop working or everyone else will have no place to return to if an upturn comes; my laid-off employees can get other jobs and actually have an income). As a result, this business that I have built has a major personal/family component. When someone leaves my family, I am sad and depressed, but understand that sometimes people have to move on. I used to make counteroffers. I don't anymore. The reality is that this is more like dating than a marriage. Someone who cheats in a marriage (or thinks about cheating) has a financial and personal reason to try to fix things. Someone who cheats when dating has no real excuse -- they don't have loyalty, and it's no use trying to fix things because they're already lost. If I counteroffer, I am just guaranteeing that I'll lose them later when a slightly better offer comes along. Worse, they've learned that by looking around for better offers they can get more money or recognition or whatever. That's some serious positive reinforcement. That's the kind of behavior I really do NOT want reinforced.
The enzymes contained in dairy products make it difficult for your body to absorb calcium. Milk is a poor choice when it comes to trying to get more calcium -- something like calcium enriched orange juice is much better for you (and I do not work for an OJ producer).
Besides... (cow) milk is designed for calves, which need to put on much more weight much more quickly than humans. There is no reason for any human child to ever drink milk, except possibly as a wetting agent for cookies (mmm).
Not to mention it just tastes bad.
Do you know how milk is produced on large dairy farms? Cows are kept locked up in cages facing one direction and impregnated by large machines (that the farmers call "rape racks") in order to keep them producing. Dairy is rape.
Also - some studies I have read (unfortunately, no sources available) have commented on the fact that young girls are starting to reach puberty at earlier ages, which may be a side-effect of all of the (female sexual) hormones given to cows in order to increase their milk production.
Milk sucks.
I accepted a counter-offer and have no regrets.
I had an opportunity to move on about 3 months ago. I informed my manager of the opportunity and he came back with a very good counter(especially in the tight job market in my area.) I weighed my options and accepted his offer.
There has been no co-worker jealousy, management has not change their attitude about me, my workload didn't increase to "punish" me, etc.
A counter offer isn't a bad thing, just weigh your options and it could work out for you!
----------------------
"I don't fear insanity, I enjoy every minute of it."
Yes, any company's profit comes from being paid for their product than it cost them to make. That's a basic principle of all economic philosophies--at least all that I know about. The only reason someone would hire me is because my services are worth more (or exactly as much)to them as the money they're paying me. (Well, it would be more accurate to say, "worth more or as much as everything else they could do with the money.") No rational person would pay me more than I'm worth. It's just cost/benefit comparison.
What you appear to be missing is the fact that I'm doing the exact same thing. The only reason anyone is ever willing to work for anyone else is because they get more in return for working than they sacrifice. In other words, when the benefit outweighs the cost. (And I do mean "only", "anyone", "ever", and "anyone". People who spend their entire lives devoted to the service of others do so because they don't consider their sacrifices to be as important as the resulting benefit to others. In the same vein, no amount of money could get me to commit murder, or to rape someone, or to sacrifice my family, because the cost--the ethical, moral cost--is too great. In this respect, the only difference between normal financial costs and ethical costs is that, for more people, ethical costs always outweigh financial costs.)
The point is that in many cases, someone whose salary is $40,000 a year would be still be willing to work for only $39,000, or $38,000, or sometimes even for only $30,000. In a non-monopolistic market, the price/wage for a good or service is somewhere between what it's worth to the buyer and what it's worth to the seller. Everyone makes a profit, except for the small number of buyers and sellers who just break even.
I don't understand your use of the term "underpaying". As I see it, the only time someone is being underpaid is when they're making less than the fair market value.
Put another way, there's a range of salaries that I might get paid. The low end is the lowest amount I would accept. The high end is the highest amount the company will pay. If my salary is right smack in the middle, we'll get an equal share of the profit. If it's at the low end, the company gets all the profit. If it's at the high end, I get all the profit.
Why should I get all the profit?
Thanks for all the great news/comments the last few years Slashdot; me lurking amongst the technologists
Having worked years in the Planning department of a $2B+ revenue company, I have seen this, not just a guess:
1)Employee takes counter.
2)Good counter was only offered due to current circumstances (employee's projects/management - VP, Director, etc).
3)Management (and those who advise management) never trust that employee again/never gives them a big enough initiative which replicates that circumstance, even in short run
4)Eventually that employee leaves, since they don't get interesting work/don't get good enough raises, since they rarely are given the chance to do something exceptionaly valuable
Comment: This is short sighted of the company in the first place, but that is the goal: short & medium term profitablity
Conclusion: Never take the counter - you are damaged goods now to everyone. Oh they will trust you, to a degree, but never like before. (It is another story how much that trust really was in the first place)
I turned an offer down once and have since regretted it. The offer was for 3 times the amount of pay, plus training and experience on new systems that would have rounded out my CV very nicely, but I felt bad leaving a company I had just joined.
A year or so later and I'm unemployed.
Be nice, ie don't fsck around a company, but remember to always concider your future before it.
And your asking /. for advice?! Come on! If you want an opinion that's not based on someone else's opinion, for the love of God don't do an AskSlashdot!
There's no $$$ in 'team'...
www..--..net - for incisive, w
Don't kid yourself; business relationships in the United States are extremely personal, at least until it is to the business' advantage to pretend that the relationship is NOT personal.
Most workers in the U.S. spend more time tending their business relationships than they do their personal relationships with their friends, their spouses, their children. Not content to simply perform the job for which their time has been leased, they will attempt to mold their (allegedly) off-work hours to suit their employers' whims: go to employer's 'events', favor hanging about with the people with whom they've already spent most of the day working whether or not those people would be the sort they'd normally care to associate, even old friendships gradually will wither and die if a competitor is involved. The worker will even try to mold his psyche to something more to the employer's liking by litening to motivational tapes and buying ghost-written biographies of heads of companies who either managed to inherit wealth or be in the right place to lead a parade they didn't necessarily start.
American business demands much more than just time-and-quality-work for money-and-benefits. Loyalty to the company is sometimes demanded to the point of near-worship. You bet it's personal. At least until the equation reverses and the employee expects a consideration that's not covered, pro or con, in the Policy manual. Then you will hear that "the age of the paternalistic American company is over", "only the interests of the shareholders can be considered", and a lot of other things that translate to: don't make it personal. And yet we get puzzled when some postal worker starts spraying away with a gun or a fast-food worker decides to cut open something other than a carton of fries after the morning Corporate Hymn.
Before the libertarians start piling on about how anti-American this screed sounds, it isn't. What I mean to point out is a wretched, hypocritical duality that is driving at least some people bonkers in the U.S.: you can't give someone only what you like of the old-style Japanese culture with its worker loyalty without the other part, which was "we hardly fire anybody and we'll take care of you". Business can't just take what it wants from Column A and ignore Column B and expect to maintain a sane workforce. There's a balance that's being ignored. Each individual business needs to decide how personal things are allowed to be, and it needs to be that personal both ways, and not just with expectations flowing in one direction.
I've had greatly rewarding business relationships of both kinds: ones with clearly defined, rigid limits and parameters for major multinationals and ones with more closely held local companies where the employess could go out and carouse with the owners. I've either been smart or lucky because I've negotiated certain hard limits and exclusions on my time in advance; my skill set is sufficiently in demand that I can do that. Some companies were frankly aghast that I held them to those pre-negotiated limits even though they'd advertised themselves as having had "family values" (isn't it funny how so many that yell "family" the loudest are those who will take you away from it the most?) I countered that perhaps I should start looking elsewhere if they were unhappy with what I'd negotiated; nobody's ever taken me up on that.
As far as accepting counter-offers goes: I agree with those who have said that the only loyalty in business is that flowing from employee to employer. Regarding the other direction, with few exceptions:
Trust is just a name on a bank.
Satan: Horns -- Bill: Melinda -- Winner: Bill
Satan: Lake of Ice -- Bill: Lake Washington Fun House -- Winner: Satan
Satan: Dropped out of Heaven -- Bill: Dropped out of college -- Winner: Satan
Satan: Tempted Christ in Desert -- Bill: WindowsME -- Winner: Satan
Satan: Wants you to have sympathy, taste -- Bill: Wants a blow job from Attorney General John Ashcroft. -- Winner: Bill
Satan: Hooves -- Bill: Working "Bat Mobile". Still too chicken to try the afterburner. -- Winner: Bill
Play Command HQ online
You sound like a terrific guy to work for.
Its unfortunate that, as you noted, you are in the vast minority.
Just knowing that you could be canned for looking for a job really hurts the ee/er relationshop I think. What a shame. If everyone were just more open things would go a lot smoother.
Congradulations. Very well trolled.
Just like the article in the submission, your link has bias. These people are recruiters. They get paid to find people to hire, not to con your employer out of more money. So of course they don't think counter-offers are a good deal, they lose out on money.
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
This topic is of considerable interest to me right now. After almost 6 years of work for the same company, I find myself out of a job.
With no explanation given (and no advance notice), I was informed that "my services will no longer be needed", and that afternoon was my last paid day with them.
About a year ago, I did find another job that was paying better (and had a slightly better benefits package too), and took it. My work counter-offered (matching the salary, but no change in the benefits), and against the advice of the recruiter who found me the new job - I accepted the counter-offer.
Honestly, the main reason I accepted the counter-offer was because the new job I found was a contract position. Even though the economy was booming at the time, I wasn't confident it would still be easy to find my next job after the contract ran out.
Thinking about it now, perhaps that counter-offer is why I was ultimately let go? I'm really not sure. They were very careful to avoid giving me any kind of concrete reason for my dismissal. (In fact, I was promised by two managers that they'd give me a good recommendation.)
In any case, I think in my situation, it was probably pretty much a wash. I would have held a job with comparable pay for about the same length of time if I took the counter-offer, or if I took the new contract position.
If threatening to quit is the only way to make your company pay what they actually believe you are worth to them, then that's a sign that you are at the wrong company.
I guess it works this way - did you ask for a raise first before looking for other jobs? If you did, and they said no, but then after seeing someone else offer you more they changed their tune, then that's a bad sign. It's a sign that they *knew* you were worth more but weren't going to pay you what you were worth until that was the only way left to keep you.
On the other hand, if you did not ask for a raise first, then maybe your current employer isn't so evil after all. They might not have really realized what you were worth until you brought it up to them and they had to stop and think about it. After all, if two people engage in a contract and one is getting the shaft, he's the one with the onus to mention something about it. The person on the other end, not getting shafted, often doesn't even realize the deal is unfair.
When I left my first programming job for another I explicitly mentioned in my resignation letter, at the very top, not to bother giving me a counteroffer because money wasn't my motivation for leaving. (In fact the salary at the new place was almost exactly the same as the old. If anything it was a little less.) My reason for leaving was that the company was marrying itself to Microsoft, becoming a "partner" in the market they were in. I'd seen what happens to Microsoft's "partners". Also, the director in charge of new technologies, who ends up driving where the company was going to be going in the next few years, was either ignorant of how alternatives to MS work, or was not ignorant but was deliberately FUDding alternatives to MS. Either way I didn't want any part of it. For an example of this, there was, "We like Visual SourceSafe as the archiver we will move to. We can't trust CVS because we don't trust putting our code under a system nobody is financially responsible for, that's why so many years ago we picked RCS over SCCS for code control." (uhhh, isn't RCS even less commercial than SCCS? You've got it completely backward, man.) "For the new GUI on top of our unix backend we will have to use Windows, because a local gui system is more efficient. X terminals are such network bandwith hogs." (Note he's comparing something unix *can do*, but doesn't *have to do* vs something both unix and windows can do.) But the absolute worst was, "We'll put all our ISO9000 documents, the ones you are now required to access many times a day to get your job done, inside an MS Exchange message server even though it is just a big pile of files we could have put somewhere more open, like on an actual file server everyone can access regardless of OS."
Okay, so I'm waaay off topic now. But to get it back on topic, are you really sure money is the reason you were thinking of leaving? That's an important question to ask yourself before taking the counteroffer. Often times people aren't thinking just, "I'm not being paid enough". They are often thinking, 'I'm not being paid enough for *this*", where "*this*" is some sort of unbearable (to them) part of the job.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
I was working for a company that will remain nameless to protect the guilty. I was fed up with them, so I told them that I was quitting. Because the boss was a bit of a thug, I secretly taped the conversation. Right after the bit where he promised not to break my legs, he said that he'd offer me three times what anybody else was making to stay.
This didn't go over real well with the rest of my fellow programmers when I played the tape for them. Ok, I shouldn't have...but would you have been able to resist? Needless to say, I left and didn't look back.
Then you are probably unemployed. Virtually every employer does exactly this. The basic core purpose of a human resources department is to recruit and retain good employees as cheaply as possible.
Things are priced at what the market will bear, not at what they are "worth".
facial pron rocks
450-500 hrs a year ain't too bad...that's only about ten hours a week. Any more than that and you're an idiot. And it better be a decent salary for 50 hrs of work a week. As far as counter offers go, if you weren't worth that in the first place, you have to ask yourself why you are now, and how long you will be.
Damnit, Jim, I'm an anarchist, not a F@#$!^& doctor!
I learned the answer to this one in business school. The answer is, "it
depends." Statistically, every thing they said is absolutely correct. To
me the point always becomes, why stay somewhere that will only match another
offer? At the same time, it does depend. Many small, entrepreneurial
companies don't know what you're worth unless you tell them. I worked for
one company that only gave raises to people who threatened to leave.
Management actually felt that they couldn't afford to give regular, periodic
raises. They were never bothered that people threatened to leave, in fact,
they considered it their early warning that others might also leave.
The reality is what one professor told my wife, "this isn't a cocktail party,
you don't have to be polite." It doesn't matter how they feel about you
personally. What matters is can they replace you cheaper? By that I don't
mean will someone work for less, but can they do your job and accept less
pay? Only an idiot would fire someone he desperately needs, but then don't
forget the "it depends" part.
What these things never tell you is that often you are better off staying
pat than advancing. I've seen people working two and three levels below me
who could have had my job if they'd had more ambition. I've also seen
people who showed no ambition, stayed with the same company and were doing a
lot better than I was 5 years later. It's kind of like driving on the
freeway in heavy traffic. The lane that moves fastest is not necessarily
the inside lane, and you can't guess which lane will really move.
I see two major sides of each issue: what should happen in theory and what happens in reality. It reminds me of those who buy things in (proper) auctions. All of these opinions are based on experience.
... suppose you are buying from a dumb business owner who would have sold at below cost because he or she can't keep accounting straight? What if he/she doesn't even sell at an enormous profit because you remind them of their grandmother who always bossed them around when they were 10? Well, now it's a whole new ballgame.
For example, one theory in auction buying is that the reseller will never sell an item below what he or she paid for it. That seems reasonable, right? You only want to sell at a profit, or you are a pretty dumb business owner. Okay
So back on topic. Suppose you don't accept a counteroffer because you are afraid of all of those points people made? I think some of the points are valid, and if I was a manager who got hijacked to pay a guy more, I would intelligently wait for someone else to come along, and lay them off at the next "restructuring" sweep, and then hire a new guy to do the same job for low pay, but give them a different title. If I was smart. Now, what if I was some boss hired through nepotism and hadn't a CLUE about this sort of thing? Maybe I am intimidated because I would only think, "Oooh! Can't lose Mr. Guru, my team will be sunk!" Then accepting my counteroffer WOULD be a good idea.
I think before leaving a job, try and list basic reasons why you are even considering the jump. Is it really the pay or are there other reasons?
Then list who actually makes the decisions for the counteroffer. Like my boss? Pffft. Not even HIS boss decides my pay. My company, for instance, has NEVER made a counteroffer. They just state, "You know you can't come back for at least two years, are you sure?" and you decide from there. But my company is a large corporation, and while I know I do a good job, the monkey in HR doesn't know me from a pile of 1mb RAM chips, and I get the same raises as everyone else. But say you are from a small company? Then you have to guess how smart they really are. Or how valuable you are.
Value is based on individual value. Like data entry people are a dime a dozen, and you could be replaced if you just sneezed wrong. But if your present job is head of security at a small company...you may have a LOT more value. Especially if you just changed the database password. Then you have to ask, "Do they know my individual value?" Who are "they?" Do "they" regulate department budget, or even state what your pay rate is? In a big corporation, unless you are Steve Ballmer or something, don't count on it. A friend of mine worked for a company that fired their bug finding team because they "always complained about flaws in the product, and are not team players." Uh... yeah. You can bet that they never got a counteroffer. But I worked for a company that did counteroffer to stay by promoting me to a different department and offer more training instead of pay... and I stayed. That was a good move (until my department got outsourced, but that's another story).
I guess all this long-winded string of words is concluding to one point: it depends on the situation, but you should think about it.
- Why would I accept another offer in the first place?
- Who decides my pay and do they know what I really do?
- Are they smart enough to understand how this whole game works?
Circumstances alter cases is the old legal truism. It certainly applies here.
Examples from an IT career spanning over 20 years and several Continents.
I've worked in a company where I felt I was underpaid by market rates, got a job offer "out of the blue" at a much higher rate, went to my supervisor and said "I can't afford to keep working here.". He looked at the figures, said "You're right, and we can't afford to pay nearly that much, so Good Luck and do you need a reference. Your work here has been a great contribution, I don't know how we'll replace you, but we'll manage. You must act in your own best interests." I left with some regret, but recommended them as a good bunch to work for - and delayed as long as I could in order to do a complete handover.
I've worked for a firm where much the same thing happened, but I decided that the pay wasn't as important as how much I enjoyed working there. I helped finish off the project, then started looking for a new job with as much interest but higher pay. I got it - again, I was truly being underpaid.
I've had a job where they made an immediate counter-offer. Within a month they upped the salary of everyone else to match market rates, as they realised they'd been underpaying everyone. I left when they ran out of interesting work in my niche, but again, would recommend them.
I've had a job where they made an immediate counter-offer, but told me not to tell anyone else so they could keep underpaying them. I RAN from this bunch of sleazebags - I hadn't realised they were so - er - "ethically challenged".
I've worked for a company where the employees got together annually, we were given the financial data of the company, and we all decided what our pay should be for the forthcoming year. I might add that when times were lean, it was the more senior people who asked for their pay to be cut, as we could afford it more than the junior people - some of whom even got rises, as they deserved it, and we could afford it. And with our longer experience, we realised just what a rare and wonderful situation we were in. Do you know what it's like when a bunch of people you respect insist that you get a pay rise because of your contribution to the firm? The money amount is irrelevant, some things you just can't buy. (Actually, I'm still working for this firm.)
So Circumstances alter Cases. There are firms out there that have loyalty to their employees, and expect (though don't always receive) employee loyalty in return. There are firms that think the concept of "loyalty" in any direction is irrelevant, and settle for impersonal fairness. There are those that try to screw the employees for as much as they can - rather too many of these, alas. And there are firms which are the employees, with everything out in the open. Damn few of em, unfortunately.
One tip: if Money is the be-all and end-all when it comes to benefits, rather than job interest, professional development and career-growth, the greater the odds are that they're out to screw you. Look at the training budget. High means they invest in you, and will try to keep your loyalty. They'll pay market rates to everybody if they can, out of sheer self-interest. Think long and hard before jumping ship to someone paying more but with a lower training budget - you may well regret it.
Zoe Brain - Rocket Scientist
My guess is that you are not very comfortable with your boss or there are other factors in your decision to chase another job. If you only wanted to make more money, why didn't you just ask your boss? The worst your current company will say is no (at this point, finding/accepting another job is fine). It sounds like they had no idea you were unhappy (even if it was only because you feel "under paid"). If you decide to take the counter offer it is important to talk with your boss and make sure they understand why you did what you did so that there are no hard feelings. Otherwise, you may end up with some soarness.
Why should I get all the profit?
I recall seeing someone (the photo.net guy from MIT I think) talking about the then new idea of "associate" websites giving commissions for sales, such as what Amazon does. He noted that since it was often trivally simple for someone with such a web site to switch their system from amazon.com to chapters.com it would seem as though eventually the associates would get all of the profits as each bookstore enticed the associates to switch to them by offering a larger cut of the sales profits. 5% -> 6% -> 7%, etc.
Given a low enough barrier to switching to the competition, it would seem that such switches should result in getting a larger share of the pie.
I guess we just do not live in a world where everyone has complete knowledge of the options and always acts in the "rational" manner that ecconomics types like to say that they should.
The converse is also true. Best way for an employee who isn't valued by the company to get let go is to ask for more money. Be sure you know your situation before asking for a counter-offer.
I have to agree with this parent...but for a different reason. I am an IT Headhunter.
Then again, the article is posted on a JOB SEARCH WEB SITE... Headhunters don't get paid by people accepting counter-offers, only when people start new jobs. So couldn't someone see just a little reason for bias in this argument?
I was the engineering manager and one of the founders at a start-up. The founders and "upper management" were very well taken care of when it came to stock options but the CEO was really tight when it came to the regular employees. I'd fought with the CEO and CFO on this subject several times and been shot down. One day one of my top engineers came to me and said that he was considering another offer that offered significantly more stock. I was able to take that to the CEO and whack him upside the head with it. I did additional option grants and pay raises for EVERYONE in the engineering group.
So, 3 years later, that engineer is still with the company. I left 2 years ago when the CEO decided he didn't like me any more. The CEO left 1 1/2 years ago when the board of directors decided they didn't like him anymore. So, it all depends on the situation
Why never?
For starters because if the company really thought you were worth what they were making the counter offer at they should have been paying you that to begin with.
So why would they still make a counter offer?
Because its usually cheaper than replacing you and you already know what's going go.
If you want an honest counter offer, make 'em beat the new employer's offer by 25-30%. Because that more accurately reflects what your new employer is willing to spend on you in your first year.
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
I told my about my counter offer just the other day. He offered to give me a $20k raise.
I laughed at him, and said "If I am really important to this company, you will hold my testicles through my pants for 5 seconds every day!"
He looked at me nervously, as if he was gay.
I left.
There are REAL back stabbing jerks out there. Believe me i deal indirectly with some every day, and directly. Im an easy going kinda guy, and with some of them I have had patients you would not believe. Some of my co-workers are amazed I havent gone balistic on them. But Im looking out for my job and can see bait when its flopped down in front of me.
If I pulled that job stunt I am sure these jerk-offs would all personaly make sure my life was a living hell. Ive seen it done. Its not pretty. The real looser could be the guy who would accept the counter offer. They are treated him fairly crummy already. There is NO stoping them from doing it again. Then once the job goes by he could be SOL if they fire him six months from now. Take it. If the bs is deeper over there move on. Its just a job. Even if he doesnt lord it over them the will find out. Some rummor mills in offices are absolutly 100% efficient in spreading information. I tested the one where I work the last time I got a raise. I said NOTHING to no one. They all still found out. I am fairlly sure my boss didnt do it. But they still found out...
There are companies where the work place is great. There are meat grinders out there. I get great pleasure out of the movie office space. I see where I work every time in different lights.
When I started this carrer I thought it would be fairly simple and non demanding. Boy did I not realize that every day I would be fighting people just to get 3 minutes of their time so they can fix something THEY broke. Im way past fixing it for them. If i do that they do not learn not to do it again, even then...
So far, everyone has been talking about the employer's part in the process. That's not what you should be examining, anyway.
Let me prefix this by saying that, if you have already accepted the first offer, the answer should be obvious: you do not accept the counter offer. You are only as good as your word, and if you have agreed to work for someone new, then you need to keep your agreement. If that's the case, accepting or even entertaining a counter offer, is an incredibly bad thing.
That out of the way, you need to understand why you were looking in the first place.
If you were looking because you were unhappy with the pay at your present job, you should have brought this up with your current employer directly, rather than trying to get a lever on them. Now that you have this lever, though, what you should do with it is pretty clear: you shouldn't have obtained it if you weren't willing to use it. I agree with most of the sentiments of "bad blood"; however, this only really applies if the only thing you are trying to lever out of your employer is money. If you are after intangibles, or non-monetary compensation (equity, elder care insurance, etc.), sometimes a lever is OK... though I would personally never be that blunt about it, but would instead start with "this is what comparable companies are doing...".
If you were looking because you wanted to measure your value in the market, well, then you probably have less value than you now think you have. The problem is that if you didn't start out with some idea of your value in the market, then what you now are is "sold goods": the value you think you have is based on your ability to sell yourself to an employer, not based on your ability to do the job for which the offer was tendered. Be very careful here. If you have padded your resume one iota, then you have shot yourself in the foot (in general, it's better to be completely honest on resumes, in my experience; it changes the interview dynamic significantly in your favor).
If, instead, you were looking because you were unhappy with your present job, how is money going to fix things? Unless the counter-offer includes the power to change the things which sent you looking in the first place, you will ultimately be unhappy, and leave anyway. Money can be a salve; it can make you put up with a lot. If you participate in a volunteer/Open Source project of any kind, you will understand where people's true tolerances, without the salve of money, really lie. Many people put up with their coworkers not because they are easy-going or "nice people", but because that's part of what they are being paid to do.
The only other reason to be looking is because you have wanderlust. If you need to wander, then wander. My recommendation is that you try to stay in one place as long as possible. An employment history rife with wanderlust signals a potential employer that you are unlikely to stay long. If you don't have the self control for this, then you really need to change your idea of work from "full time job" to "contractor". Otherwise, your wanderlust will damage your ability to get future work, as you get older, and settle down.
In general, I think that if things have progressed to the point of monetary counter offer, then you have already left your current job; even if you don't know this, your employer, who is presumably a preofessional manager, will.
Go to your manager and say you want an evaluation. Don't even mention the other offer. If you get a good review and a pay raise then it's done without confrontation. If you get blown off, then just take the other job and walk away.
You tell a manager you are considering accepting a offer and you've painted a target on you back. I've seen many in this situation and they stay with the current employer, but they don't get the good projects any more and are on the list of people to get laid off. You just showed you not loyal. Of course companies aren't loyal to employees anymore. So all of this is a lose-lose for everyone.
I went to an interview and asked for an extra 15K to move from my current job. I knew I was worth it, and I the other company basically said "Any time you're ready to move, we're ready to have you."
I had a think about it, then went to my current boss and told him all about it. He offered me the extra 15K, and I accepted it, staying in my old job. Of course, there were a few token provisos thrown in (work harder, deliver results faster...) but it was business as usual.
I don't feel at all guilty, because the other company never made me a formal offer, and I never had to submit a formal resignation. Also, my current employer had not given me a merit increase in the 7 years I was with them, so the extra 15K was what they owed me anyway.
Your supervisor may have difficulty justifying giving you a certain salary level. Most companies adjust their wage scales base on what the industry pays. If your boss can show that you're worth more to someone else, then she can readily match the pay. This is almost exactly what happened to me. In one day, I was promoted, given a 7% raise, put on a bonus plan and 16 months later, I've gotten an additonal 16% in raises and additional bonuses.
To me the situation is the same as a bidding war between potential employers/contracts except you are already ensconced at one of them. If everything else at your current job is ok or better then there would be a strong argument to stay. If you have a project near and dear to your heart that you are in the midst of then definitely stay. Unless of course, your current employer begrudges the money. But usually in these situations they offer it because they know they need you and it is worth it to them to keep you.
I had this happen to me once. The offer was for a consulting gig and thus had a bit more risk as well as monetary opportunity. But the work itself did not enthuse me but most anything would have enthused me more than what the incumbent company was doing. I took the counter-offer though on the basis of security, being already known and respected, and promises to fix, esp. allow me to fix, a lot of the brokeness. The money came through, the promises did not so the next offer (a real dream offer at that) was enough to say goodbye.
I was trying to think of a way to get her to upgrade her boobers. That might just work.
There are those in the camp of "Don't Do It", and those in the tribe of "Take the Original Offer".
My take is as follows: If you actually don't mind being where you are, you just might be better off staying.
It's cliché, I know, but "Better the Devil you Know" kinda fits in this situation fairly well.
Look at the Negatives of leaving:
There's (possibly) the hassle of Moving involved. Maybe even to anothe city/state/province/country.
A whole new work environment, fellow employees, boss, supervisor, etc.
The "Probationary period" starts all over, and you Just Might Not Fit there. If that's the case, you're out of a job, *And* you probably can't go back!
Just my silly thoughts on the matter.
Just echos of the board, simplified, really.
Why were you being underpaid anyways? Your employer was obviously willing to pay you more. If you're "worth" more to your employer, there should be a way to substantiate this without having to get another job offer. My advice to anybody else would be to get salary information off dice.com or wherever, and go talk to your boss. Arrange a meeting, and professionally go over the subject of your salary. State that you enjoy your job and want to stay (hopefully that's true otherwise you should be doing something about that as well) but you are worth more $$ and here's why. State that you want to be a loyal employee but it's difficult when you're being underpaid.
This way you'll likely get your raise if you work for a Good Company. Either that or you'll get a reason you (more or less) trust for why you can't get one, and hopefully they'll try to help you out in some other way - stock / private office / whatever. Or you'll get some lame excuse and if you didn't realize it before you'll know now that your company is just interested in using you and throwing you out. THEN it's time to start entertaining other offers. And at that point, I'd say once you have an offer, DO NOT accept any counter offer. You could use a counter-offer to raise your other offer, though...
Back when I used to be an employee, I realized that I had to look at my career as my own company. I was president of my own company, and had to do what was right for that company (i.e. myself). We're all "free agents" whether we're employees, contractors, whatever. You may think your employer has loyalty to you but all that means is that they'll regret laying you off when times get tough. But they'll still do it.
www.clarke.ca
Learn to break-up and write paragraphs. Relax, Slashdot isn't a sweatshop where you have to write so intense like at work:)
A bank offered me TWICE my pay, and I said YEAH, but since my manager is also a long time friend, I talked to him before accept.
It was a surprise, but the IT Director ordered him to make a counter-offer. I accepted (the same raise, less trouble, same old bar buddies).
15 days latter, our mother company decided to absorb all their online ventures (us). Result? two weeks of sleepless nights, nobody knew what was going to happen, and my only hope was to receive my upgraded paycheck, clean some bills and loans, and start again at another place.
Since I'm a damn lucky SOB, I was NOT laid off, my income remains the same and the new IT Director (Oh yes, the president and IT Director were fired in the process) loves me.
Conclusion? It was NOT worth the stress.
[]'s Carlos Cardoso - Becoming a brazilian ProBlogger, typo by typo
You have now made your employer aware that you are unhappy. From this day on, your loyalty will always be in question.
More likely you have made your employer correct a major deficiency, and they have every reason to believe you are now happier.
When promotion time comes around, your employer will remember who is loyal and who is not.
This is true, but accepting a counter offer could as much be a sign of loyalty as not. Loyalty goes both ways. What kind of company insists that it's employee accept below market wages?
When times get tough, your employer will begin the cutbacks with you.
Maybe, but if they were willing to up your salary, maybe it's a sign they value you.
Accepting a counteroffer is an insult to your intelligence and a blow to your personal pride; you were bought.
BZZZZZT! B*llsh*t alert! Of course you were bought. Do you want to be regarded as cheap? Are you working because you would die for the company? Unlikely. They may be great, but most companies are in it for profit. If you aren't too, then work for a non-profit, they could use your help.
Where is the money for the counteroffer coming from? All companies have wage and salary guidelines which must be followed. Is it your next raise early?
At 50%? No. And hey, if that the game they are playing, you have found it out, and can start searching again.
Your company will immediately start looking for a new person at a cheaper price.
Maybe, or maybe not. You can't predict that.
The same circumstances that now cause you to consider a change will repeat themselves in the future, even if you accept a counteroffer.
If the circumstances are merely that you deserve a raise, well, let's hope so. If you are leaving because you hate working there, maybe you should leave.
Statistics show that if you accept a counteroffer, the probability of voluntarily leaving in six months or being let go in one year is extremely high.
If you were leaving because it sucks, yep. If you were just getting your pay in line with the market, maybe not. In any case, question those statistics. In recent times people have been leaving jobs because they'd been there a year, and that was long enough. And getting more money while you evaluate your position is nice.
Once the word gets out, the relationship that you now enjoy with your co-workers will never be the same. You will lose the personal satisfaction of peer group acceptance.
Bzzzzt! More b*llsh*t. If your peers even know about it, they will likely be gratified that you decided to stay, if they like you. More likely you will cause them to consider their own positions, which could lead to them trying the same thing, and they will look to you for advice. If you give it, honestly, you should end up being tighter with them.
What type of company do you work for if you have to threaten to resign before they will give you what you are worth?
All of them. Companies do not simply hand out the cash out of altruism. They maintain their profits by keeping costs down. If giving you a raise to keep you on is the best thing, that's what they do. Volunteering to pay more is not going to happen. Even review raises are going to be grudging, and are only done because it's what people expect.
All the technology in the world won't hide your lack of vision, talent, or understanding.
If you expect loyalty from one another, someone will eventually be hurt and disappointed, because let's face it the odds are small that you and the company will be in the same relationship 20 years from now. You'll have some sort of break-up and someone will end up feeling betrayed. If you expect commitment from one another, on the other hand, it's a lot easier to see that some day this relationship will come to a natural end and both parties will move on to other things, hopefully without feelings of betrayal.
you mean to say, "he was F-U-C-K-E-D!"
critical usually don't understand anything.
the place i work now is the same place that i wanted to leave. i regret i didn't do it sometimes, probabilty to leave is still very high. even for less payed job. :)) and good luck.
do not accept the counter offer. go test your luck.
In Finland, where you cannot get fired for no reason, accepting a counter-offer is always a good idea. I know several people who have done that and nobody got in trouble, it didn't even harm their relationships with their superiors.
In fact, if you're a good employee your employer is more likely to be pissed off at you if you do leave despite a viable counter-offer.
The attitude towards employees is somewhat different here, as well, only people high up in management would be considered disloyal for negotiating a job offer from elsewhere.
Of course I'd accept. A counteroffer is just the regular way of dealing with a situation. If it ends in situations like described in some of the replys, then your companys management is already breathing shit.
Some of the against comments are plain dump. just switching the job, because you alrteady have an offer is the most illogical way. It's an offer, not an oath.
And for the link: always look who is posting. An agency whose purpose is to find empolyees for their customers will of course tell you that you have to switch. There interest is not in getting you the best possible job with decent payment but rather get recruitment deals. That's where there money and loyality is.
Gruss
H.
the govt also has rules on what degrees/qualifications/years of experience are required to be eligible for those positions.
You see, I have no degrees/formal education beyond high school, (The curricula offered at colleges for CS was so remedial, that I essentially boycotted the whole "education" industry) So I was not eligible for any better position than I was at.
Private industry, assuming you can find a results oriented place, is much more flexible. They are willing to pay what they think it takes to keep you on board, moderated by how much youre worth to them.
If you leave then taking another offer in a year or so would make you look more like a job hopper than staying and looking for something with a better bump in salary.
Ask me about my vow of silence!
Ask me about my vow of silence!
I have this rule that hasn't failed me yet: Never run away from something, but always run to something.
If you are unhappy for reasons other than the money AND you have a reasonable belief that the new employer will challenge you more, allow more quality of life, etc. then don't take the counter offer - take the new job.
If you are unhappy for reasons other than the money and you DO NOT have a reasonable belief that the new employer will satisfy you more; if you don't know or haven't done your homework, if you are interested 'just to get away' from your employer, etc - don't take the new job.
The market has spoken, in effect, with a validation of what you are worth. Stop and look around a bit before making a decision - you might be able to find the job you want that matches the salary you want as well.
TA
Technology Marketing is what happens when people turn their hard work over to people paid to manipulate others.
If it really is just about money and you made that clear to your employer, then it is okay to stay as long as your employer's attitude towards you stays the same. I highly suggest bringing this up with your employer immediately.
... put the pay was below average. At my one year review, they offered me a 3% raise. I showed them how the average salary for my skills in Atlanta was about 20% higher than that. They said no. I told them on the spot that I loved working for them, but that giving up 1/5 of my salary to work there was too much. They suddenly agreed to a 20% raise, but the SVP in charge of US operations made it clear that he thought I was "blackmailing" them.
Several years ago, I took a tech job at the US office of a European company. The benefits were good and I got to travel to Belgium on a quarterly basis
I setup a meeting with him and discussed the fact that he was trying to pay 20% under average pay. I asked him if my performance was below average and explained that I just wanted fair pay for the hard work I did for him. He said that I was being disloyal and greedy to ask for a "special raise" like that. I finally agreed to disagree, turned down the raise and quit the position.
I left there and went to work for one of the megabanks. Their initial pay was good, but they did not keep up with rising salaries either. Three years later, I was under the average again. I setup a meeting with my boss and explained that I was getting unsolicited requests from recruiters and being promised much higher salaries. I looked into this and found that I was being paid under the average for Atlanta. My boss considered this and took it to her boss. A month later, I was promoted, given more responsibilities and given more money than I even asked for. The bank took it as initative, not greed, and gave me a chance. I stayed on for another three years busting my butt because they had earned my loyalty.
So it really depends on you, your employer and your relationship after approaching them about a raise.
Dilbert: I want a 10% raise.
PHB: There's no budget for raises.
D: I have an offer from another company that will pay 15% more.
PHB: I'll give you 20% if you stay.
D: I thought you said there's no budget for raises.
PHB: Well... it's supposed to be a secret but... our policy is to give big raises to people who spend their time interviewing for other jobs.
D (to Alice and Wally): Good news! The secret company policy is to reward disloyalty!
A: Yippee!
W: Yes!
D: Woo-woo-woo
W: What's the reword for leaving work early?
D: He wouldn't show me the price list.
The problem with counter offers: 1. Why are you suddenly worth more than you were yesterday? Did your current supervisor live in a bubble, unaware of your relative importance in the org until you threatened to leave? 2. What about your co-workers, who will soon realize you got a "bump" and will almost certainly expect one as well? This is human nature and will likely cause discord in the ranks. Unless you are very happy where you are, in a situation with potential for growth, go for the new gig. I speak from experience in a traditionally low-paying but interesting and somewhat exclusive job. I was fed a steady stream of $100 raises for years until the cold, hard fact hit home... My income had increased only a fraction of what my potential income could be in other related fields. I must note that receiving these raises required taking on more duties until the point where I had no social life, was on call at all hours and days, holidays, etc., and ended up divorced, living on a single income shoestring budget and very unhappy. My employer was evidently happy with this situation, as at no time was there any effort on their part to give me the resources needed to spread the work around. I fianlly took an offer, jumped ship and tripled my income and benefits in only 3 years. My present job is less stressful and gives me the opportunity to expand(no...really! I gained 15 pounds after leaving that "satisfying" 24/7 on-call hellhole)
I had a job that I liked, but I disliked my boss and way some things were done. Money wasn't that big of an object, although I thought I could do better. So I interviewed with another company, got a decent offer, accepted it, and quit my job. The CEO called me to his office and said to take the afternoon off and make a list of what it would take to make me want to stay. Figured this would at least be a good chance to vent, I harshly criticized my boss and the way he did things, insisted that I not work for him, asked for changes of policy and asked for a raise that was two times larger than the one from my other offer (basically about %20). Afterall, he did say whatever it would take, right?
I got everthing I asked for, got a new boss, the old boss was eventually ran off, and I was happy and successful under the new circumstances. Plus, I've received accolades for my suggestions for policy changes.
I wish we could see the names of the moderetors so we can find out who it's that performs crap moderating (like moderating that comment down as a Troll...) then we could a community burn *their* karma down for bad moderation (to a point where it was so low they would never be picked for moderation duties).
HOW, *EXACTLY*, IS DISAGREEING WITH SOMEONE AND GIVING VALID REASONS FOR DOING SO, THE SAME AS TROLLING?
Are we not supposed to disagree now in our society? Are we all "with a poster or with the terrorists"?
Pardon me for daring to express a fucking opinion!
Here's a big FUCK YOU to you mister moderator, you lily livered, chicken shit, middle of the road, don't rock the boat, ass kissing, missionary position, tedious fuck.
You are NOT invited to moderate so you can express your opinions, you are invited to do so in order to make this forum more useful for everybody. If you can't agree to that kindly get the fuck out of here because your just fucking the rest of us off and screwing up the system for everybody.
You may take my karma and shove it up your ass.
Well, if you've gotten that far and haven't adaquately prepared or gotten a fat check, then 'freaked out' comes to mind. That's one reason why I'd recommend against staying if you recieve an offer that's like 50% more than what you're currently making.
There are normally lots of clues to let you know if there's a possibility of this happening. Things like: company losing money quarter after quarter, company with a poor business plan, low scores on your performance evals, a recent transition to a lateral or lower position, etc. There are a ton of clues, but be careful not to misread them and freak out too early, like a tinfoil-hat-wearing type of person.
Seriously: Sorry if you've gone through that...
If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Our management tells us the minimum about this. Where are you gettin your numbers regards what % of IBM employees get raises each year? Do you know the % for this year?
Lasers Controlled Games!
In my experience, people normally change job for a new job at around 120% to 140% of their old salary. So at the most basic level, if you're not happy the extra money is not likely to make you much happier. On the other hand if you accept the counter-offer and then months later decide to leave anyway, you're looking at a new job which is 120% to 140% of your now increased salary. That's got to be good news. Of course, this doesn't apply so neatly to counter-offers with strings attached (e.g. agreement not to leave for 12 months or refund the extra salary) but in any case you should think twice before accepting such an offer.
At a previous job, I decided to leave to get a pay rise and reduce my commute, and was offered a boring job at 136% of my current salary. I talked to my current employer, and they offered to match it. Since my current job was more interesting and I wasn't unhappy, I agreed to stay.
Here's the interesting bit - in order to prevent morale problems, my employer gave the same increased package to my entire department! As you might imagine, I was flavour-of-the-month for quite a while among my colleagues.
Now that I think about it, this is evidence in favour of the point another poster made about employers using departing employees to adjust their idea of the market value of their staff.
I did eventually leave that job, but I did stay another two and a half years and enjoyed it.
You've already violated a basic workplace rule, which is never tell a current employer that you have entertained an offer from another employer unless you are 100% prepared to leave. If you really like the current job but were just dissatisfied with the money, you should have asked for a raise there before interviewing elsewhere. But OK, you took that step, not a problem. But once you tell the current employer that you're looking outside, you are a marked man. Take the other job, you have no choice now.
Note that the "10 reasons" are hosted by a recruiter, and that recruiters *hate* counter offers with a vengance, because their best candidate is cheap and low paid. They offer them a bit more, and pass the savings on to their customer (the new company). Counter-offers *reall* irritate recruiters, because they do "work" (ie, a few phone calls) but instead of making out like bandits, the original company and employee end up happy...
If you resign and then get the counter offer you should not accept; it's considered unprofessional. Professionals will consider you unprofessional. The rule is, once you resign, you resign no matter what they offer you.
;)
When you get an offer that you find interesting, the proper thing to do is to go to your current employer and say "hey I got this offer, and it's a very good offer and I owe it to myself to consider it. However, I am interested in continuing here and I want to see if you can compensate me in a competitve way so that I can continue to work here".
All that being said, in the end you know your employer and you know the relationship you have with them. Guard your credibility and professionalism, but also be aware of what you can get away with
Abdul
Go ahead, accept it. That is, if you enjoy getting fired.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
You should have asked first, but now the harm is done.
First, is it just the money? Can there be another type of compensation? Sometimes people walk away because of project disapointments (good projects that don't get assigned to you). OTOH, there could be other ways of them providing financial benefits (How does free training in a specific area sounds?). Sometimes it's not just money. You use money to buy things like education or satisfaction. If they can provide that directly to you, isn't that worth money?
Second, consider that changing companies isn't smooth. Think about that.
Main point, the reactions to leaving change from company to company depending on their culture, but more on how you present the facts. Here's how:
a) I have this offer of a company that is paying me x more than you are paying me currently. I have decided to take their offer and I expect you understand.
b) As you know, the company has been paying me below market value for these past [insert time measuring unit]. I am now on the verge of starting to consider other offers, because I'd like to stay with the company, but purely financial issues are at stake. You do know how the market prices are. Can we talk this over? (either this or something similar)
This way, risk of harm done is lowered, and you can talk it over. It gets clear that you are OK with them, but that you do have to hunt a big mammal to take your family for dinner.
At this time? You're better off leaving for the new company. Now you are the guy that's "staying with us because we paid him more money". That's what you'll be from now on.
Lay
Weakly typed languages will bring us armageddon
I agree. If you feel he is important, why were you only paying average salray?