Your Future Car's Hood Will Be Welded Shut

It's a car for women! by wayward_son · 2004-03-04 01:49 · Score: 5, Funny

As if having they care if the hood is welded shut. /go ahead, mod me down, you know it's true.

Re:It's a car for women! by Tomeck · 2004-03-04 01:50 · Score: 2, Interesting

Golf this week created a car with the screen wash next to the petrol (gas) entry point (what's the correct word?!) because they said women didn't like opening the bonnet (hood) on a car. Tom
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 01:53 · Score: 0

If there were a car that didn't ever require me to open the hood, that would be fine with me if they welded it shut. It obviously wouldn't be a gasoline-powered car, maybe some kind of electric.
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 01:54 · Score: 0

If the Calendar Girls were making cars, this is what they would look like.

They forgot to paint it pink.
Re:It's a car for women! by tiled_rainbows · 2004-03-04 01:54 · Score: 5, Interesting

Sad but true: this is a Volvo "Concept Car" (ie automotive vaporware) that was designed "for women by women".

However, the whole article does read like something out of the Onion. Changable multi-coloured seat covers to match your clothes? If it wasn't true it would be a sexist joke.

I was talking with my wife about this and she said she likes having a bonnet that lifts up, as it acts as a kind of "distress flag" when she's waiting on the hard shoulder with a knackered car, hoping some good samaritan will pull over and help her out. I know that this, too, sounds like a sexist joke, but my wife said it first, and she's a woman, so that's OK, I guess.

--

evil math within Nature's Cubic Creation!
Re:It's a car for women! by Araneas · 2004-03-04 02:01 · Score: 5, Funny

Same for the Volvo concept car. I have visions of the windscreen (windshield) covered with flaming petrol (benzene) because someone got the fill points mixed up.
And yes I know there would be some safety device to prevent this and I know there would be no ignition mechanism. Maybe I have been watching Zoolander too much. Besides - you know some guy is going to have to do it. ;)
Re:It's a car for women! by the_mad_poster · 2004-03-04 02:02 · Score: 5, Funny

What the hell are you, some kind of Canadian? Petrol? Petrol Entry Point? BONNET!?!

Get me mah shootin' stick maw.....

It's GAS which goes in the GAS TANK which sure as hell isn't under the HOOD of the car!

Next thing you know, you'll be telling me you use a "Gay-raj" instead of a "car hole"?

--
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
Re:It's a car for women! by easter1916 · 2004-03-04 02:03 · Score: 1

Golf...? Do you mean Volkswagen? (curious)
Re:It's a car for women! by blahlemon · 2004-03-04 02:04 · Score: 1, Informative

Tell me you're kidding right? The water you say you put in doesn't provide the same hydrolic pressure as proper brake fluid. If you got into an accident and it was determined that faulty brakes on your car caused it you would be litigated into the stone age. Especially if someone was killed by it.
Someone please tell me I'm feeding a troll here.

--
It take more faith to believe in evolution than it takes to believe in God
Re:It's a car for women! by chazbet · 2004-03-04 02:05 · Score: 1

Brake fluid absorbs water but too much absorption and it's no longer compressable. For your own safety you ought to have the fluid flushed and changed.
Re:It's a car for women! by b0r0din · 2004-03-04 02:05 · Score: 1, Funny

And has anyone noticed that Volvo looks more and more like Vulva? (I'm sorry, that word makes me giggle every time.)
Re:It's a car for women! by ThogScully · 2004-03-04 02:06 · Score: 4, Informative

I call BS. Water in your brake lines would boil the first time you tapped the brakes. Brake fluid doesn't boil for hundreds of degrees where as water would boil just coming near your brakes. Once it boils, you've got no brake pressure and you better hope your parking brake has some tension.
-N

--
I've nothing to say here...
Re:It's a car for women! by dayve · 2004-03-04 02:07 · Score: 3, Informative

Actually, some VW Beetles (the old ones, not the new ones) had the gas filler under the "hood".
Re:It's a car for women! by Jane_Dozey · 2004-03-04 02:09 · Score: 4, Funny

Now how can I get a man to fix my car if the hood is welded shut??

--
Silly rabbit
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:18 · Score: 0

My wife does 90% of her own maintenance - she's handier under the hood than I am (she should be - it's her car). I don't think she'd be too happy with this.

I'm betting wayward_son couldn't tell a distributor from an alternator.

(Oh, and she can cook, sew, code, and shoot too. The idea that women should be stupid and helpless, in my experience, usually comes from people with few abilities themselves.)
Re:It's a car for women! by kj0rn · 2004-03-04 02:19 · Score: 1

Hey man, it took guts to admit that.

My old man shouted at me until I pointed out that it was *my* car, then he laughed about it. My mechanic didn't look surprised at all - he knows me too well.

But neither was anal enough to sudgest changing the whole lot... chill out.

john.e.boy
Re:It's a car for women! by DigitumDei · 2004-03-04 02:20 · Score: 2, Interesting

Erm I own a 1980 model Porsche 911SC and it has the washer cap right next to the fuel cap.

How is this new?

--
East Coast Brewers
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:21 · Score: 0

"Canadian"???? what are you? American?, FYI, Canadians say "gas" and "hood", Brits say "petrol" and "bonnet". Canadians also eat gravey with their french fries and have block heaters on their engines - meaning we plug in our cars to keep them warm over cold nights. However, no longer do we need to open our hoods to access the cord.
Re:It's a car for women! by aspeer · 2004-03-04 02:23 · Score: 5, Interesting

Having mis-spent my youth employed as a petrol pump jockey for several years, I can state with certainty that no matter how big the PETROL and WATER stickers are, it will only be a matter of time before petrol goes where the water should and vice-versa.

And I am not singling out females here, it could just be as easily be a male. I once saw a guy who had both the radiator and oil caps off (because they were both low) proceed to put *oil* into to radiator. He (almost) immediately realised the mistake, but it was too late to do anything but flush the radiator.

Also hope they have some sort of interlock where only one can open at a time, or what is stopping you accidentally splashing water into the petrol outlet when filling up the washer tank ?

Not that I really care that much, can't really see this taking off ..
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:26 · Score: 0

You haven't been around women much during this century, have you?
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:27 · Score: 0, Troll

No no no, you don't understand. Brake fluid is a special hydraulic fluid that doesn't compress under pressure, making it suitable for squeezing calipers to stop a car. By adding water, you are diluting that with a liquid that compresses a LOT under pressure, effectively decreasing the pressure in your brake lines when you stomp on the pedal. What will happen then, is it will take you 2-3 times the distance to stop, and your car will be VERY unsafe. Your dad was right to yell at you, you ARE an idiot. And so is your mechanic for letting you back on the road. I don't know where you live (I'm gonna guess Europe by your lingo) but if (and when) you get into an accident, you will CERTAINLY be at fault no matter what, in the insurance companies' eyes, because there was a defective system on the car, and they will deny your claim. Also, your car will fail inspection, and it will be just plain unsafe. HTH.
Re:It's a car for women! by Roblimo · 2004-03-04 02:27 · Score: 4, Insightful

I'd like a car with easily removable/exchangable seat cushions myself. I could have a plush set for regular/city use, and a vinyl set for when we go to the beach, head out to sail, going camping, or anything else that tends to get the interior dirty.

Except sooner or later I'll probably moot this whole idea and replace my Cherokee with a Wrangler or old CJ with a totally washable "interior" and use it as our beach/tow/camping vehicle, with my wife's Hyundai reserved for "civilized" driving.

(BTW, my wife checks oil and other necessary fluids often. I don't think she'd want a car where she couldn't do that easily.)

- Robin
Re:It's a car for women! by jejones · 2004-03-04 02:28 · Score: 1

Yeah... BBC stands for Broadcasting from British Columbia, eh?

Seriously, as close as I can come to a phonetic transcription of how the English say "garage" is "GEH-ridge" (upper case denotes the accented syllable).
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:40 · Score: 0

GAS is, well... GAS? Where as PETROL is a liquid of sorts?

Jeez, the British can't help it if we know how to write/speak English correctly!
Re:It's a car for women! by Total_Wimp · 2004-03-04 02:43 · Score: 5, Funny

"sounds like a sexist joke"

I was in dismay as I read this. Basically you can change anything cosmetic but you can't change anything substanttive. I wracked my brain to think up any other product that's gone this route and finally found one: Windows.

You can chage the wallpaper, but you can't change the web browser. You can change the system font, but you can't upgrade the kernel.

I tried to think of what this all means and then it suddenly struck me. Of course, it's right in the aritcle! Windows was designed by women for women.

Now that I understand the Windows niche I can take real action in my life. The girlfriend will get my old Windows machine ("honey, what did you do with my Mac?") and I'm getting the real OS designed by men for men. It may look like crap, but I know I can change any file with complete confidence. Thank god for MS-DOS, the real-mans operating system.

TW
Re:It's a car for women! by sulli · 2004-03-04 02:43 · Score: 4, Funny

And yet the logo is distinctly masculine. Weird.

--

sulli
RTFJ.
Re:It's a car for women! by hottoh · 2004-03-04 02:44 · Score: 1

That is funny.

I gotta buff it up, buff it up, buff it up, buff it up, buff it up - Ted Nugent

http://www.lyricsmp3.net/D22000/kk21083.htm
Re:It's a car for women! by kj0rn · 2004-03-04 02:46 · Score: 0

oooh, mod parent +5 Interesting ;-)
Re:It's a car for women! by cdrudge · 2004-03-04 02:48 · Score: 5, Informative

Huh? Brake fluid isn't compressable either. You don't want compressable things when maximum pressure is required.

Water could be used as a brake fluid if it wasn't for two things: corrosion and boiling point. The components of the brake system would quickly rust or otherwise corrode with water in the system. Also brakes get very hot and the water would boil off.
Re:It's a car for women! by cHiphead · 2004-03-04 02:49 · Score: 5, Funny

you underestimate the desires of a man to get to play with fire to unweld your hood.

--

This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Re:It's a car for women! by Tmack · 2004-03-04 02:51 · Score: 5, Informative

No, water, same as most any liquid, is not compressable. What it DOES do that brake fluid does not, is boil at a relatively low temp. The friction from the pads against the disc/drum heats up all your brake components, disc/drum/pads/calipers/fluid/etc. Once heated, the water would boil, creating steam pockets in your brakeline, and steam (a gas) is VERY compressable.
Just realize the parent is flamebait and move along, nothing to see here.
Tm

--
Support TBI Research: http://www.raisinhope.org
Re:It's a car for women! by Bastard+Operator+Fro · 2004-03-04 02:53 · Score: 1

And the TVR Griffith has the gas cap in the trunk.

Doesn't make it a good idea.

--
Shaun Nelson - Bastard Operator (From Hell / For Hire)
Re:It's a car for women! by alienw · 2004-03-04 02:57 · Score: 1

Master cylinder replacement ensues in 3...2...1...
Re:It's a car for women! by DrSkwid · 2004-03-04 02:57 · Score: 1

hehe go get 'em boy

--
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Re:It's a car for women! by dasmegabyte · 2004-03-04 02:58 · Score: 1

Well, that's all thanks to chief Volvo designer, Georgia O'Keefe...

--
Hey freaks: now you're ju
Re:It's a car for women! by zero_offset · 2004-03-04 03:03 · Score: 3, Interesting

Actually, if you're in slow-moving traffic, your brakes may not heat up much at all. Most regular brake fluid (e.g. not hi-temp racing fluid) has a wet-boiling temperature in the neighborhood of 300 degrees F -- not much higher than the boiling point of water. Also, even if the temp does peak above 212 F, brakes actually cool down fairly fast, especially at such low temperatures. In regular around-town driving, you may not boil enough water to create any noticable effect.

Where he'll get into trouble is when he needs brakes the most -- a panic stop, or slowing down coming off that highway off-ramp, for example. Temperatures will elevate for an extended period of time, the water will boil, the pedal goes to the floor, and the local mortician scores another $10K for services rendered.

Longer term, that much water in the lines will cause severe corrosion of the brake lines and possibly inside the caliper.

(Personally, I think the whole thing is a troll.)

--
Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005
Re:It's a car for women! by saxgod007 · 2004-03-04 03:07 · Score: 0

lol, where did english originate ? in the US .. ? hm wait .. something is fvcked up with history
Re:It's a car for women! by zero_offset · 2004-03-04 03:07 · Score: 1

While that's usually true, it isn't ALWAYS true. I high school I had a friend who filled her unleaded-only Rabbit with diesel. When she told me about this shortly after the damage was undone, I said it was impossible because the nozzle wouldn't fit, so we took the Rabbit up to a gas station and sure enough, it fit. To this day, twenty years later, she is still annoyed that it didn't just run right in spite of her mistake.

--
Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005
Re:It's a car for women! by DrSkwid · 2004-03-04 03:08 · Score: 1

If the water boiled, so what?
Boiling the fluid would cause more pressure, not less, surely?

Steam engines work because the boiled water increases in volume.

--
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Re:It's a car for women! by saxgod007 · 2004-03-04 03:09 · Score: 0

VW Golf == VW Rabbit i think..
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:10 · Score: 0

Brits would generally say GA-ridge those with spoons in their mouths might be inclined to use GEH-ridge.

they certainly dont use the french pronunciation
Re:It's a car for women! by surreal-maitland · 2004-03-04 03:10 · Score: 0

funny, because i know a hell of a lot more men who don't do any of their own maintenance . . .

--
-ninjaneer
Re:It's a car for women! by FuzzyShrimp · 2004-03-04 03:12 · Score: 1

OIL cap? Hell, my wife thought it was the 710 slot to store money. ...and Welded hoods means Jiffy Lube is out of business, huh?
Re:It's a car for women! by argStyopa · 2004-03-04 03:14 · Score: 1

My favorite quote...

Volvo will never actually take this car into production, of course.

What does THAT say?

--
-Styopa
Re:It's a car for women! by triumphDriver · 2004-03-04 03:14 · Score: 1

My Boxster's engine compartment is not welded shut, but it is not exactly easy to get to.

--
I grew up in the Fulda Gap, where did you?
Re:It's a car for women! by Unregistered · 2004-03-04 03:15 · Score: 3, Funny

Windows was designed by women for women.

Actually, i get the feeling that windows wasn't designed at all. More like crashing a Yugo into a parts truck, imo.
Re:It's a car for women! by Unregistered · 2004-03-04 03:17 · Score: 1

Take it to the approved volvo dealership (cause most mechanics wouldn't touch a car that wasn't designed to be opened) and pay $250 an hour for him to do it. duh.
Re:It's a car for women! by mog007 · 2004-03-04 03:17 · Score: 1

I always thought that brake fluid just created pressure for the brake pads to squeeze the wheel and slow the car, I didnt know it actully touched the wheel.

--
Learn something new.
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:19 · Score: 0

It would make the gass compressible, and when you really wanted to stop, you'd be jamming on something that felt like a marshmallow.
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:27 · Score: 0

You've never driven around all day with your parking break on, have you? When your brake fluid gets too hot, you can't stop at all. Pumping the breaks helps, but I've done this before and had to pump my breaks a LOT before they'd work again.

Yes, I did learn my lesson. No, I didn't cause any accidents.
Re:It's a car for women! by Da_Weasel · 2004-03-04 03:32 · Score: 1

Ummm...wouldn't boiling water create additional presure and not less? Things generally take up more space in their gas for than thier liquid or solid forms.

So this would effectivly cause the breaks to lockup if it reached the boiling point as opposed to causing the brake system to loose presure.

Either way water in your brakes is stupid!

--
If you must!
Re:It's a car for women! by Pisco · 2004-03-04 03:32 · Score: 3, Funny

To hell with the boiling point, (in Canada) I'm more concerned about the FREEZING point!!
Re:It's a car for women! by OECD · 2004-03-04 03:32 · Score: 1

that would be fine with me if they welded it shut. It obviously wouldn't be a gasoline-powered car, maybe some kind of electric.
Sounds good, until you try to change the battery!

--
One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
Re:It's a car for women! by zangdesign · 2004-03-04 03:34 · Score: 1

I dunno about you guys, but I'm paranoid enough not to stop and help anyone on the side of the road. I got no problem with calling the local law enforcement, but I just don't trust other drivers enough to stop.

--
To celebrate the occasion of my 1000th post, I will post no more forever on Slashdot. Goodbye.
Re:It's a car for women! by pyite · 2004-03-04 03:35 · Score: 1

Steam engines also get vented. Steam trapped in a brake line cannot vent, and therefore will compress. Decrease in fluid volume will result in the brake pedal dropping to the floor and no pressure being applied to the brakes. I just hope I'm not the one who gets hit by this moron and/or troll.

--
"Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman
Re:It's a car for women! by ThogScully · 2004-03-04 03:37 · Score: 1

That is the point of brake fluid. But when it boils, the gas is compressible and so the pressure is gone. It only takes a little bit of water moisture to turn into enough steam to kill your brakes. And water will boil much sooner than brake fluid. Realistically, any car with enough mileage (100k+ especially) should have the brake fluid tested regularly for moisture. I learned the hard way before I knew enough about cars when my brakes went out while going down a mountain and I got lucky.
-N

--
I've nothing to say here...
Re:It's a car for women! by jskiff · 2004-03-04 03:39 · Score: 1

English? Isn't that a strange dialect of American?

--
It's "no one," not "noone." Who the hell is noone anyway?
Re:It's a car for women! by Colonel+Cholling · 2004-03-04 03:45 · Score: 1

As if having they care if the hood is welded shut.

You know, if you're going to engage in gender stereotypes, you could at least have the courtesy to demonstrate some knowledge of the English language in doing so.

--

I am Sartre of the Borg. Existence is futile.
Re:It's a car for women! by Tomeck · 2004-03-04 03:46 · Score: 1

Yes, but it was a type of golf.
Re:It's a car for women! by Tomeck · 2004-03-04 03:49 · Score: 2, Funny

I'm English. You got better mod points for your reply than I got for my original post, no fair!
Re:It's a car for women! by katarac · 2004-03-04 03:50 · Score: 1

Next thing you know, you'll be telling me you use a "Gay-raj" instead of a "car hole"?
That's car hold.....commie.
Re:It's a car for women! by FuzzyBad-Mofo · 2004-03-04 03:55 · Score: 1

So are SUV's and light trucks, but women seem to love those also. I think it's penis envy.
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:56 · Score: 0

There are 6.5 x 10^10 different types of people in the world...
You're off by an order of magnitude, here.
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:58 · Score: 0

A true pussy-mobile (as in picking up, not a dig on you). Congrats.
Re:It's a car for women! by cayenne8 · 2004-03-04 04:07 · Score: 2, Interesting

1986 911 Turbo Porsche here....
Damned plastic washer cap disinigrated on me...but, I'm careful not to put gas in it. How's your mileage? I'm almost up to 9-10 mpg....
You can see the engine in my car if you open the rear hatch..but, it isn't like you can do much to it. With these cars, your pretty much have to drop the engine to do something as simple as change the windshield wiper...
:-)

--
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Re:It's a car for women! by tiled_rainbows · 2004-03-04 04:07 · Score: 2, Insightful

I dunno about you guys, but I'm paranoid enough not to call local law enforcement. I would sooner trust a random stranger than a copper.

--

evil math within Nature's Cubic Creation!
Re:It's a car for women! by g33kgirl · 2004-03-04 04:17 · Score: 1

People, please.

I know plenty of women who are brilliant with cars, and I know plenty of men who can't refill the windshield washer fluid. This "for women" car is blantantly sexist.

There is no way in hell I would buy a car with the hood welded shut. I'm not going to take my car to a mechanic and pay him or her hundreds of dollars to fix something when I could do it myself.

Yes, this car would probably be popular with some people - but certainly not all of those people would be women. Plenty of men are ignorant or lazy enough that they can't be bothered to take care of their own car.

Personally, I'd like to speak to the women who helped design this car and give them the proverbial feminist bitchslp. (Yes, I'm aware of the irony.)

--
You don't have to be the person you've become.
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:29 · Score: 0

Erm GAS is the stuff that comes out of your GAS-OVEN when you turn it on.

PETROL is liquid you chuck into your car to make it go.

Or in America do you use the same GAS for your oven and your car?
Re:It's a car for women! by diskman2000 · 2004-03-04 04:37 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Umm.. Last I checked, steam is NOT compressable. That is one of the neato properties of steam.
Re:It's a car for women! by dthinc · 2004-03-04 04:39 · Score: 1

Actually, the biggest hurdle the "welded" hoood would go through is haggling with the insurance companies. The Viper just went from a one-piece flip-forward hood to a standard hood/quarterpanel/front facia set up because the insurance company's were sick and tired of paying for a complete front end for a fender bender.
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:41 · Score: 0

I take offense to that, eh?

Hood, and gas are the commonly accepted terms in my neck of the woods. Petrol and Bonnet are Brit-speak.
Re:It's a car for women! by Zachary+Kessin · 2004-03-04 04:44 · Score: 1

In General Aviation there was a problem for a while with People putting Jet-A in aircraft that take Avgas. (Or vise versa) this is really bad all around and requires flushing the system and probably other stuff as well. They solved it by making the hole where you put the nozel a different size, so you can't put the wrong one in. (ALso color coded stickers)

--
Erlang Developer and podcaster
Re:It's a car for women! by WinterSolstice · 2004-03-04 04:53 · Score: 5, Informative

Well, Porsche used to have the oil fill port as well as the fuel fill port accessible from the exterior.

This was *very* short lived (I think it was 71 or 72) because people are amazingly capable of screwing things up.

-WS

--
An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:54 · Score: 0

that's what the panel on the side is for. duh.

it only gives you access to the battery of course.
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:55 · Score: 0

Please mod parent -1 Pathetic.
Re:It's a car for women! by ajs318 · 2004-03-04 04:56 · Score: 1

Water will work ..... for awhile ..... the problem with using water for hydraulic fluid is that it tends to absorb gases readily. The definition of an ideal liquid is that it is incompressible; but a liquid with a gas dissolved in it is not an ideal liquid, and has some liquid-like and some gas-like properties. In particular, the dissolved gas {and therefore the composite fluid as a whole} can be compressed. Under enough pressure, the dissolved gas will liquefy, but what essentially happens is that the first few cm. of pedal travel are just compressing the gas, not doing anything useful. Thermal expansion {brakes get hot ..... remember kinetic energy = .5 * m * v ** 2 and all that KE has to change state into heat ..... it takes 4170J of heat to make 1kg. of water 1 degree hotter} will work in your favour; but since heat doesn't travel instantaneously, your brakes won't feel "right".

If you use water in the clutch cylinder {assuming you have a hydraulic as opposed to cable clutch.....}, then you run the risk of wearing out the friction plate as it may not disengage properly. And you might not be able to hold it on the biting point at traffic lights ..... fair enough, apply the handbrake if the lights are red, but red and amber together means hand brake off, clutch to biting point ready ..... doesn't it? ;-)

Just because something will work in an emergency doesn't mean it's recommended to do so all the time.

--
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 05:00 · Score: 0

the fading of breaks is caused by the brake discs or drums overheating, not the brake fluid.
Re:It's a car for women! by Beer_Smurf · 2004-03-04 05:01 · Score: 2, Interesting

The AvGas in the jet A trick isn't as dangersous as the Jet A in the AvGas.
Most jets have provisions in their manuals to run on gas in an emergency.
Unfortunately piston engine planes when fueled with Jet usually run just long enough to get you killed.
Re:It's a car for women! by CrowScape · 2004-03-04 05:02 · Score: 2, Interesting

Gasoline versus Petroleum = Gas versus Petrol. You're just jealous because we can get rid of more letters when we abbreviate. :)

BTW: Gasoline is a type of refined Petroleum. When you say you're filling up your car with Petrol, it's a bit like saying you're taking the oil right out of the ground and immediately throwing it into your car.

--
common sense: noun
What those who are ignorant of the subject matter think; usually wrong.
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 05:04 · Score: 0

That's exactly right. It dosen't touch the wheel.

The fluid is there to exert pressure on the slave cylinders, which push on the pads, which cause friction upon contact with the drum/disc. That friction causes lots of heat--and heat radiates and conducts. If you'd live around mountians, you'd realize how important good brakes are. I regularly smell BURNING break pads. Sometimes, I even see disc brakes that are orange-hot. Iv'e seen drum breaks in similar condition EXPLODE.

All that heat, and it's transfer means that ultimately whatever hydraulic fluid you use will get hot.

We use "brake fluid", because it's low viscosity, won't gum up under heat, and has a reasonably high boiling point, all while being reasonably priced.

If this idiot tried his water trick in my area, we'd find him at the bottom of a chasm.
Re:It's a car for women! by Skynyrd · 2004-03-04 05:06 · Score: 2, Informative

Actually, some VW Beetles (the old ones, not the new ones) had the gas filler under the "hood".

That's becasue the tank was under the "hood", under the spare tire.

With the old VWs being rear engine, there wasn't any room for it in the back.

When the filler was moved to the outside, it was only a longer filler neck - not a moved tank.

Tackett
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 05:07 · Score: 0

Yes, but it does absorb water from the air, if left exposed to it. This water, when heated enough (heavy, repeated braking), forms steam, which is very compressible.
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 05:10 · Score: 0

So if only a volvo mechanic can get under the "hood" with one of these cars, what happens if you want to fix your wife or girlfriend's car - or some other woman you know? What if your car needs an oil change or your filter needs replacing or your radiator needs more anti-freeze or a fan-belt breaks or a hose clamp slips off or a spark-plug needs to be replaced?

All of these things are things that most people can do who don't even know the first thing about a car (I've never driven, owned or fixed a car but even I know how to do all of the above).

Are you telling me I have to pay some ritzy european mechanic dealership a shitload of cash just to do these menial maintainance tasks?
Re:It's a car for women! by zakezuke · 2004-03-04 05:11 · Score: 3, Informative

What the hell are you, some kind of Canadian? Petrol? Petrol Entry Point? BONNET!?

I find it odd that anyone would find the use of these terms humorous. I buy Haynes manuals, and in fact learned the terms from their manual. While I don't typicaly use bonnet or boot, I would not even question the use of these terms. Esp petrol which makes the most sence, as it's short for petroleum.

Gas makes the least sence as gas it self is like air, whther it be methane, propane, hydrogen, or what you get after eating AM/PM food. Not that it's not a good term to use for auto fuel, just it's far too generic. "Can we drive to the *metro area* and go dancing tonight" "I have gas honey".

--
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
Re:It's a car for women! by Leebert · 2004-03-04 05:13 · Score: 2, Funny

I'd like a car with easily removable/exchangable seat cushions myself.

Yeah, I remember riding in one of your limos. You could DEFINITELY have benefitted from changeable seat covers in that thing. ;)
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 05:13 · Score: 0

Except that steam pressure at low temperatures in't that great--at least no where near the pressure of a brake system. Consider: pressure at: 212F 14.696 PSI 360F 67.013 PSI 500F 680.8 PSI The pressure exetred in normal breaking is easily double even the highest number there.
Re:It's a car for women! by ultranova · 2004-03-04 05:23 · Score: 3, Interesting

Steam engines also get vented. Steam trapped in a brake line cannot vent, and therefore will compress. Decrease in fluid volume will result in the brake pedal dropping to the floor and no pressure being applied to the brakes.

Take a kettle full of water. Shut it airtight, preferably welded shut. Put it onto stove. Turn on the stove. Let it boil. Kaboom.

When gas is compressed, it's internal pressure raises. The same is true for fluid, however, with fluid, the internal pressure rises much more rapidly. That is why we can consider fluids uncompressable for practical applications; they compress, but that compression is negligible under "normal" pressures.

When steam is wented, it's pressure *drops*. If it is compressed, it's pressure *raises* (obviously, because otherwise you could compress it infinitely). If you want maximum pressure, take a closed system, fill it with liquid, make sure it has nowhere to expand to, and heat it up till the liquid boils.

Anyway, if your brake fluid would boil (and the brake system could withstand the resulting pressure), the brake would lock on "on". You wouldn't lose pressure, you would have too much of it.

--
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Re:It's a car for women! by fopa · 2004-03-04 05:24 · Score: 1

The joke isn't that the seat covers are easily changeable or washable. Those are fine, practical ideas.

The joke is that the reason they are changable is to match your outfit. It is purely aesthetic and something most men would see as a rediculous waste of time.

The sad thing is that some women really would change out their seat covers just to match their outfits so they look nice through the window or for that few seconds when the car door is open and others can see in. It's like the poster above said, it's be considered sexist if it weren't true.
Re:It's a car for women! by Bender+Unit+22 · 2004-03-04 05:28 · Score: 1

Are you telling me I have to pay some ritzy european mechanic dealership a shitload of cash just to do these menial maintainance tasks?

You already have to do that if you want to keep the warranty of the car. Some of the extended warrenties goes away if it has not been serviced within the specified intervals by a authorized mechanic.
Re:It's a car for women! by bfischer · 2004-03-04 05:36 · Score: 1

Your parking/emergency brake does not rely on hydraulics, but rather a cable and lever method of engaging the brakes if the hydraulics fail (hence the term emergency brake). What you are describing is brake fade caused by the overheating of the brake pads. More info here: http://www.elephantracing.com/techtopic/brakefade. htm
Re:It's a car for women! by Roblimo · 2004-03-04 05:38 · Score: 3, Funny

I *had* changeable seat covers in that limo, Lee.

You don't think I wasted the *good* ones on you, did you? :)

(Seriously, removable and washable seat covers are a great things to have, but I bet Volvo would charge way too much for them.)

- Robin
Re:It's a car for women! by dildatron · 2004-03-04 05:39 · Score: 1

I wonder if a car like this was actually on the market if there would be a popular aftermarket hood mod. Basically you would cut the hood open with a plasma cutter or cutting wheel, then install an aftermarket-made hood with the accompanying brackets and accessories.

I mean really, how can they keep the front body closed to everyone except volvo mechanics? a new weird-shaped bolt that requires a special (expensive) volvo tool (this is common motorcycles)? or would it be more complex, perhaps something that would have to be validated with the onboard computer before it would allow the hood to be opened? maybe a mixture of both is my guess.

--

If you had nuts on your chin, would they be chin nuts?
Re:It's a car for women! by dildatron · 2004-03-04 05:44 · Score: 1

Yes, european cars tend to be this way. I once accidentally put a few gallons of diesel in my friend's old 70's BMW. He has claimed it never ran right after that. I am not sure if I believe him. :) The diesel was heavily diluted with gas.

Either way, the diesel nozzle will not fit on American or Japanese made cars, as it is too big. Euro cars, however, it seems anything will fit in there.

--

If you had nuts on your chin, would they be chin nuts?
Re:It's a car for women! by flewp · 2004-03-04 06:05 · Score: 1

I want a seat cover for my passanger seat to have a hot chick painted on it. Then I could roll around and look cool. Or maybe I could just get a real doll......

--
WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
Re:It's a car for women! by JabberWokky · 2004-03-04 06:05 · Score: 1

Calm down. It's a Simpsons reference. I haven't even seen the episode, and I get it from the "car hole" comment. Apparantly, Homer objects to the fancy terms used, including the term "garage", noting that he calls it (and assumes everybody else does as well) a "car hole".
--
Evan

--
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
Re:It's a car for women! by djocyko · 2004-03-04 06:08 · Score: 1

And "gas" is short for "gasoline"...
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 06:09 · Score: 0

It's not gas as in air, but gas as in GASoline!

"Whoa, that burrito gave me some wicked petrol.. ugh"
Re:It's a car for women! by Opie812 · 2004-03-04 06:10 · Score: 0

I *am* some sort of Canadian, and I've never said the word Petrol in my life. I've typed it exactly once (see previous sentence). And as far as I'm concerned, a bonnet is a hat a baby wears. However, I will admit I like to go oooot and aboooot somtimes.

--
I'm not a nerd. Nerds are smart.
Re:It's a car for women! by JesseL · 2004-03-04 06:15 · Score: 1

Hydraulic brake systems aren't sealed until the pedal is pushed slightly and the master cylinder piston closes off the port to the fluid reservoir. If your brake fluid were to boil while you were braking the resulting volume increase would increase brake pressure - until it forced back the master cylinder or you released the pedal. At that point the steam pressure would escape through the fluid reservoir and you would be left with low pressure steam in your brake lines and thus you have no brakes.

--
"Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!"
Re:It's a car for women! by tmortn · 2004-03-04 06:15 · Score: 1

More likely just somthing that is more trouble than its worth to do casually. If the entire front body comes off instead of just a hood to raise its probably not an insubstantial weight to deal with and it would probably be easy to damage if not properly supported. Add it up and you will find that without any propriatary means they can default people to going to the dealership to 'check under the hood'. Probably wouldn't take long before higher end garages would have the ability as well.

--
I don't ask you to be me. I only ask you not expect me to be you.
Re:It's a car for women! by B3ryllium · 2004-03-04 06:15 · Score: 1

Ah, but surely you've said Petro as in Petro-Canada?
Re:It's a car for women! by Avakado · 2004-03-04 06:16 · Score: 1

Now how can I get a man to fix my car if the hood is welded shut??

You don't fix it; you wait for a new version, and then buy it.

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The world will end in 5 minutes. Please log out.
Re:It's a car for women! by schovanec · 2004-03-04 06:19 · Score: 3, Funny

people are amazingly capable of screwing things up
No kidding. Even if the fuel nozzle physically won't fit in the washer fluid hole, somebody somewhere will still manage to spray gasoline out of their washers.
Re:It's a car for women! by Merk · 2004-03-04 06:20 · Score: 5, Interesting

Gas is short for gasoline. Petrol is short for petroleum. You don't put petroleum in a car, otherwise really bad things happen.

Before cars, there were both boots and trunks. Trunks were big cases used for storing things, like clothing. Boots were the things you put your feet inside. Which one of those two better describes how the storage area in your car is used?

Hood is the only one that doesn't have a strong case for it. Both hoods and bonnets are typically head coverings. Neither makes much sense when it comes to describing part of a car, but neither is better than the other.
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 06:21 · Score: 0

It's true. Women like this especially. Gender, in the end, doesn't always matter.
Re:It's a car for women! by mrmcwn · 2004-03-04 06:24 · Score: 1

Fuel is the correct term.
Re:It's a car for women! by theMerovingian · 2004-03-04 06:29 · Score: 1

If you get a wrangler (I wouldn't own anything else), then here's what to look for:

Soft top, but hard doors - Those soft half doors totally suck, you have to unzip the windows.

6 cylinder - the 4 is too weak to drive up hills and get on the interstate

manual transmission - 2000 and newer wranglers have a really stout manual transmission

Dana 44 rear axle - if you like off roading, this is the heavy duty axle (less likely to break)

vinyl seats - cloth seats get wet, and it takes like 12 hours for them to dry in full sun. not pleasant to ride around on.

Aftermarket:
get a locking glove box. trust me - people think jeeps are places to pick up free stuff.

--
"If you think you have things under control, you're not going fast enough." --Mario Andretti
Re:It's a car for women! by glenrm · 2004-03-04 06:33 · Score: 1

Just because a joke is sexist doesn't mean it isn't true...

--
Onward to the Aether Sphere!
Re:It's a car for women! by devnul73 · 2004-03-04 06:35 · Score: 1

I prefer gashole.
Re:It's a car for women! by Spirilis · 2004-03-04 06:38 · Score: 1

A brake system is designed for a fluid-based system, thus introducing a gas (which is more compressable than brake fluid) breaks (no pun intended) that basic design assumption.

Pouring some water into your brake fluid reservoir may not cause immediate issues, as brake fluid itself is hydroscopic (absorbs water). However, as brake fluid takes on water, its boiling point drops dramatically.
Water also enters the brake system naturally through slow breathing of the rubber brake hoses, water vapor in the top of the brake master cylinder fluid canister, etc. This is why it is important to have your brake system flushed at least once every 2 years, preferably every 25000 miles or so. Fresh fluid also prevents corrosion, since that water can promote corrosion of the brake system as well.

--
the real at&t mix
Re:It's a car for women! by rossdee · 2004-03-04 06:44 · Score: 1

"Canadians also eat gravey with their french fries and have block heaters on their engines - meaning we plug in our cars to keep them warm over cold nights. However, no longer do we need to open our hoods to access the cord."

Some americans also have block heaters since it can get cold here (MN) too. One week over winter it didnt get above -20f here. Fortunately my wifes car was able to be in the garage for that time.
Re:It's a car for women! by taniwha · 2004-03-04 06:47 · Score: 1

rtfa .... it's not 'welded shut' - it's a one piece from assembly that gets removed as a whole to provide even better access to the engine when you need to get there - having to add a 'door' in the front of the car puts some real engineering limitations on the shape and strength of stuff - and it costs money
They've provided access to the washer filler externally because they reason that that's the only reason people open the hood. I think they are full of it - do they really think that the quicky oil-change place down the street will want to be removing the whole front of cars even if it's fairly easy (and the associated liability - "you scratched my car" "no we didn't" "did too" ....). I certainly need to get at the engine compartment on my truck fairly often (changing headlight bulbs, topping up oil, etc) - it might be a great idea for a new car and a real pain for an old one
Re:It's a car for women! by Fallen_Knight · 2004-03-04 06:48 · Score: 1

ahh but its missing the l so still no Petrol :)
Re:It's a car for women! by Stween · 2004-03-04 06:53 · Score: 1

Well, I don't know about writing it phonetically (if that makes sense... :) ), but if you were to write it literally as it's pronouned, it's more like "ga-rage". Makes perfect sense when you look at it like that, compared to the American "Garaj".
Re:It's a car for women! by globalar · 2004-03-04 06:58 · Score: 1

"Gas makes the least sence"

I get your point, but you might be missing the joke. It is actually not the reference to common parts, at least for me, but rather the elements in combination. A nonsensical character revealing their character.

The post was somewhat ironic. Bigots, those that hate Canadians and a bigot in general, usually have no actual reasons to hate their targets. Bigotry is an example of ignorance. So a bigot is ranting about how petrol is really gas, which reveals another level of ignorance. Finally, there is the added and crude gloss to the joke that this particular bigot also happens to be a "hick" or "yokel", which is the favorite American character (aside from GWBush) who embodies ignorance. Geeks particularly like including ignorant characters in their jokes.

Note the American character was ranting about the Canadians, which is a little joke for the Americans and Canadian readers. I suspect the joke was moderated funny because of the Canadian reference. I like it.
Re:It's a car for women! by FurryFeet · 2004-03-04 07:00 · Score: 1

Either you're in Iraq, or you're a complete nitwit. Yeah, yeah, all cops are pigs... until you're the one being robbed or raped.
To quote Al Pacino's character in Sea of Love: "All these people in here with their rocks and their furs, they get robbed, they get raped, all the sudden I'm their daddy. Come the wetass hour I'm everybody's daddy".
Re:It's a car for women! by BuckaBooBob · 2004-03-04 07:00 · Score: 1

Using Canadian is Quite Odd.. Canadian "Lingo" Is heavily influenced by the US... If you walk about and ask people to open up the Bonnet or Boot on thier car the vast majority of them will get a confused look on their face... These terms are more widely used in the UK and more European English speaking countries... and I am sure the Canadians they would know the refrences to Boot and Bonnet in relation to automotive terms would probably never actually use them in daily conversations. Petrol on the other hand is alot more widely used but still not "Mainstream"

--
Who needs WiFi when we can have Packet Over Sheep! http://datacomm.org/PoS-InternetDraft.txt
Re:It's a car for women! by mr3038 · 2004-03-04 07:01 · Score: 1

As JesseL already explained, the problem isn't the actual "boiling" itself, but what happens after that (you loose fluid from the brake lines which gets replaced with steam). Note that even water doesn't boil under high enough pressure so the real boiling happens after you release the brakes.
And as to what comes to driving over mountains, one should use a manual transmission car and use the engine to do the braking while going downhill (select a small gear and set throttle to zero) so that your real brakes are saved for the time you really need them (like, when some animal/idiot jumps in front of you). As an added bonus, if your car has computer controlled fuel injection, you'll be able to drive down the hill with "engine running" with zero fuel usage.

--
_________________________
Spelling and grammar mistakes left as an exercise for the reader.
Re:It's a car for women! by Fallen_Knight · 2004-03-04 07:02 · Score: 1

So in the end its a car for men who like to play with fire to get their women? sounds good.
Re:It's a car for women! by FurryFeet · 2004-03-04 07:02 · Score: 1

Was that a risque double entendre? I can never tell these days...
Re:It's a car for women! by thomasdelbert · 2004-03-04 07:03 · Score: 1

What the hell are you, some kind of Canadian? Petrol? Petrol Entry Point? BONNET!?!

IAAC (I am a Canadian) and the only times I can remember ever hearing the word petrol used, it had a reasonable derivation of the word sniff in front of it. Canada uses the word gas if it is indended to be used for fuel. The word petrol is normally used in former British colonies outside of North America.

--
___ This sig is in boldface to emphasize its importance!
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 07:09 · Score: 0

Everyone cares if they need a jumpstart and can't get one.
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 07:25 · Score: 0

Yes, I do, Dildotron. Yes, I do.
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 07:29 · Score: 0

Well you can still by many things with hoods on them. The only place I've ever seen a bonnet is on Tweety-Bird's grandma.
Re:It's a car for women! by kin_korn_karn · 2004-03-04 07:31 · Score: 1

maybe he mules skag and that's the only time he's ever in a car.
Re:It's a car for women! by jjsjeff · 2004-03-04 07:37 · Score: 1

Actually liquids are compressible, but because they don't compress much most people assume the compression to be zero.

It does make a difference in Thermo calculations if you assume your liquids to be incompressible.

-J
Re:It's a car for women! by Lionfish · 2004-03-04 07:39 · Score: 1

Check again, maybe you used old steam. The new improved Steam V2.0 ist compressable.
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 07:47 · Score: 0

Probably because brake components will corrode more rapidly if you have water in the brake reservoir. Totally OT, but thats why many folks recommend you NOT use DOT 5 - it is not hydroscopic, so water gradually builds up at the bottom of your brake system - usually at the wheel cylinders - and starts to corrode stuff. There's a reason the mfrs specify certain fluids for certain purposes.
Re:It's a car for women! by SEE · 2004-03-04 07:54 · Score: 2, Interesting

"Gas" is merely the contracted form of "gasoline", which is from

gas : Gas as in air and the like
-ol : from oleum, "oil" (petroleum being rock-oil)
-line : "of or relating to" or "made of, like"

Thus accurately describing the substance. Gasoline is the distilled fraction (a -line) of petroleum (-ol) that readily vaporizes (forms a gas).

Whereas, "petrol" is an Anglicized contracted form of the French essence de petrole, literally meaning "essence of petroleum". Essence, when used in distilling, meaning "a volatile (readily vaporizable) substance or constituent." Which is also an accurate description of the fuel for automobiles, being a readily vaporizable constituent of petroleum.

Thus both make perfect sense, since both are contractions of accurate descriptive terms. "Gas" is merely more prone to confusion with other meanings.
Re:It's a car for women! by wayward_son · 2004-03-04 08:08 · Score: 1

I'm well aware that there are plenty of women who are quite mechanicly inclined. And there are plenty of men who are clueless.

For all who don't realize, that first post was a joke.
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 08:11 · Score: 0

MS-DOS? a mans os? what have you been smoking? if you want a *real* manly os, go with linux. now about this whole car thing, if i can't get the damn hood open, then what am i going to do if the belts snap going down the road at 100 mph?
Re:It's a car for women! by zangdesign · 2004-03-04 08:20 · Score: 1

I meant, I would call the local law enforcement to see to the needs of the motorist.

Not such a big deal - I've dealt with the police before and as long as your reasonably polite and not terribly defensive, they are quite reasonable and understanding. On the other hand, I've never had them called on me for anything other than loud music, so no problem.

The thing is, as long you don't give them grief, they're just trying to keep the peace. Give them a hard time and you're stuffed and cuffed. Which is fine by me.

--
To celebrate the occasion of my 1000th post, I will post no more forever on Slashdot. Goodbye.
Re:It's a car for women! by soft_guy · 2004-03-04 08:24 · Score: 3, Informative

Apparantly, Homer objects to the fancy terms used, including the term "garage"

Apparently you are wrong. (We forgive you - in fact we pity you for not having seen the episode.) Home uses the term "Garage" and Moe objects to his "fancy use of language" (as do Lenny and Carl). Homer asks "So what do you call it?"

Moe: A car hole!

--
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 08:26 · Score: 0

That is a great description for such a non-humorous individual (parent). I applaud you for the effort.
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 08:32 · Score: 0

Slow moving traffic means more use of the brakes. You should have stuck to highway driving (not using brakes).
Re:It's a car for women! by virtualXTC · 2004-03-04 08:43 · Score: 2, Informative

Insightful? I was looking for a mod -1 Lie!
If you paid attention in either of your HS Chemistry or Physics classes, you'd know that liquids (and even solids) are indeed compressible. The difference is each is successively orders of magnitude harder to compress.
The correct thing to say would have been that liquids are "near incompressible" and for the purposes of breaking, it is as earlier posters said the boiling point of the break fluid that is important.
Re:It's a car for women! by kg439. · 2004-03-04 08:45 · Score: 2, Funny

A friend of mine actually did this to his car - he put a gas-oil mix in his windshield washer fluid reservoir because it was the same color blue and was being stored in a gallon jug (not the best place to store it). It ruined the paint on the hood and nastied up the widnshield. So I hope that they don't actually put this into production, for the car's sake - what might it do to the plastic body?

--

"And perhaps, posterity will thank me for having shown it that the ancients did not know everything." -Pierre Fermat
Re:It's a car for women! by JabberWokky · 2004-03-04 08:51 · Score: 1

I'm not a big Simpsons watcher (not a big TV watcher, but I like the Simpsons that I've seen). But I get Simpsons by osmosis, hanging around with a large group of people who quote and reference it pretty often. My SO does the same with Monty Python. She's seen only a couple episodes, but can quote long scenes.
--
Evan

--
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 08:55 · Score: 0

It was probably designed by saleswomen, which they pulled in from their dealerships. We all know car salesmen are sexist pigs, so I guess this proves sexism in car sales knows no boundaries.
Re:It's a car for women! by ncc74656 · 2004-03-04 08:56 · Score: 1

Either way, the diesel nozzle will not fit on American or Japanese made cars, as it is too big.

It's not where they're made so much as it's where they're sold. Since 1975, the EPA has required inlet restrictors on gasoline-powered cars and trucks so you can only fit an unleaded-fuel nozzle inside. Back when you could still get leaded fuel, the nozzle that dispensed it was larger...probably the same size as a diesel nozzle.

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20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
Re:It's a car for women! by zero_offset · 2004-03-04 09:00 · Score: 2, Interesting

Slow movement means less inertia to shed in the form of heat through the braking system. Your speed while not using the brakes is irrelevant. It's your speed when you do use the brakes that generates heat. You can use them all day long if you're not moving.

--
Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 09:14 · Score: 0

I'm English. You got better mod points for your reply than I got for my original post, no fair!
Chalk it up to the English being cursed. ;)
Re:It's a car for women! by Marvelicious · 2004-03-04 09:29 · Score: 2, Informative

This whole conversation is making me want to break out my baby seal club!
OK

Water is compressable - just not very

Steam is very compressable - this is how power generation in a boiler works. I should know, I build the damned things!

Water is not a sub. for brake fluid - It boils, freezes and generally is a problem. I'm actually amazed we still use it mixed with antifreeze for coolant.

Cars should have hoods that open - I really hate this "user-friendly" car concept they have going right now. I don't my car to call anyone for me. No mechanics, no policemen, not even a hooker. I have a phone, I'll use it when I need to. As for a hood that doesn't open... Says who? I'll get the M*****F***er open.

--
Send whiskey and fresh horses!
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 09:36 · Score: 0

I like the caption on the picture...'sleek and low-maintenance'.

So basically, this car is the complete opposite of its intended market.
Re:It's a car for women! by starling · 2004-03-04 09:40 · Score: 1

Nope, it's a contraction of "petroleum spirits".
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 09:44 · Score: 1, Interesting

If you look at your dictionary link for petroleum, it notes petrol as a product of petroleum, which you do put in your car...
Re:It's a car for women! by mental666 · 2004-03-04 10:08 · Score: 1

Hood makes sense. What do you call the top of a motor? Thats where things like the head gasket, and terms like header come from.
Re:It's a car for women! by SnappleMaster · 2004-03-04 10:38 · Score: 1

Wuss! You don't need a block heater at -20 deg F. You need it if you're out in the dang prairies where it can get *much* colder than that. -20 deg is nothing. Southern Ontario gets that regularly. I never needed a block heater even in my cruddy student cars. Until I wised up and moved to a place with a less stupid climate, that is.

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Be happy. Nothing else matters.
Re:It's a car for women! by UberLame · 2004-03-04 10:44 · Score: 1

Most of the women I know care. As I think about the women in my family and extended family, as well as the ones where I work, and the ones I know from other social circles, I can only think of maybe 1 or 2 who wouldn't mind the hood being unopenable by anyone other than the dealership.

For the ones who don't do car repairs or maintainence themselves (which is most of them off the top of my head), they still care. Some of them want to be able to have their husbands/brothers/fathers work on the car. Others want small time mechanics who work out of the shed behind the house and are in no way factory trained or authorized to work on their cars. Such men may be incompetent. But others are reasonably competent at any work that doesn't require any special computer equipment fancier than a basic ODB-II machine.

--
I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me.
Re:It's a car for women! by SnappleMaster · 2004-03-04 10:58 · Score: 1

"I would sooner trust a random stranger than a copper."

Mods, how is this insightful?

Read the fucking newspaper. Count how many stories you read about crimes committed by police and compare that to the number of crimes committed by non-police. Heck, even do it "per capita" if you want.

--
Be happy. Nothing else matters.
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 11:08 · Score: 0

Gas makes the least sence as gas it self is like air, whther it be methane, propane, hydrogen, or what you get after eating AM/PM food

Not to mention LPG. If you ask for 'gas' over here, that's what you'll get.
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 11:21 · Score: 0

Nah, Real Men don't use Linux - it's too customisable. Munchkins use Linux.

Real Men use UNIX.
Re:It's a car for women! by Guppy06 · 2004-03-04 11:50 · Score: 1

I drive diesel, so you're both wrong. An epoxy upon both your houses.
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 12:16 · Score: 0

Wrangler, washable interior?
Hyundai, civilized driving?
Are u gay?
Re:It's a car for women! by ishmaelflood · 2004-03-04 12:22 · Score: 1

Water in the brake system would boil at around 100 degrees, well, a bit more really since it is under pressure.

Basic brake fluid has a boiling point of 205, dry, and 140, wet

Brake fluid temperatures in the calliper are a bit harder to ascertain - the pads themselves hit 700 C, but there are significant thermal barriers between the pad and the fluid.

Anyway, I suppose what I am saying is that if a 140 degree BP is OK for full performance of the brake system, then the usual driving cycle is unlikely to raise the fluid temp to 100 C. Typical brake app is about 0.3g, whereas the brakes are good for 0.8g. Out of 1 million actual customer braking events we'd see perhaps 3 over 0.6g
Re:It's a car for women! by arkane1234 · 2004-03-04 12:33 · Score: 1

GAS is, well... GAS? Where as PETROL is a liquid of sorts?

I love this argument :)

Gas is short for the what it's actually called.. gasoline. Petrol is short for what it's derived from, Petroleum. (or the genre, considering it comes from oil, and they're both petroleum products)

--
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 12:53 · Score: 0

Viscosity and lubrication is also important.

If you've ever hacked open a master cylinder or slave you would know that you can't use water even if in an ideal condtion (no boiling or freezing).
Water, when poured into a master cylinder (during cleaning) causes seals to stick and not move in a uniform-like motion.

Ever try sex in the shower? Sqeeky sqeeky, stick stick, ugh. argh. argh. argh.

Water is not a good lubricant. Better than air..but not a good lubricant.
Re:It's a car for women! by arkane1234 · 2004-03-04 13:22 · Score: 1

Either you're in Iraq, or you're a complete nitwit. Yeah, yeah, all cops are pigs... until you're the one being robbed or raped.

Please...
What did the cops do when I had a 45 Cal put to my face, and I knew who did it? Nothing. What did the cops do when my wife and my daughter had a knife to them, threatening their life when I wasn't around. (by a family membertemporarily living there, none the less) Nothing. Even went as far as telling her to give him some money for a hotel room, or keep him there. What did the cops do when I got into an accident because of bad brakes? Strip my car for drugs, and leave it stripped. (none found, I don't do it, or deal it)
Now to top it all off, what did the cops do when I needed help to get to a local place to actually get help for my car? Tell me they can't help anymore, due to regulations, turned around and left.

I fear when I see a cop. Not because I did or am doing something wrong, but because of my history with them.

--
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
Re:It's a car for women! by arkane1234 · 2004-03-04 13:25 · Score: 1

Read the fucking newspaper. Count how many stories you read about crimes committed by police and compare that to the number of crimes committed by non-police. Heck, even do it "per capita" if you want.

Don't use the newspaper as a statistical "proof" of anything. That's like watching the evening news to count the number of white on white assaults/murders, versus black on white/black.

Besides, a majority of the time police aren't caught because well... they're cops.

--
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
Re:It's a car for women! by frdmfghtr · 2004-03-04 13:31 · Score: 1

Volvo's new concept car, launched at the Geneva motor show, is a car designed by women for women.

No modding down allowed...women designed it for crissake!

--
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
Re:It's a car for women! by Bush+Pig · 2004-03-04 13:47 · Score: 1

One of the mid-70's Holden Kingswoods (an Australian car) had the petrol cap under the hinged number plate (licence plate to you seppos). It was a really shitty idea, although the car sold well for a lot of other reasons.

--
What a long, strange trip it's been.
Re:It's a car for women! by Bush+Pig · 2004-03-04 13:49 · Score: 1

It's called Benzin in German, IIRC.

--
What a long, strange trip it's been.
Re:It's a car for women! by the_mad_poster · 2004-03-04 13:55 · Score: 1

I spilled industrial epoxy on the floor in the garage once behind a saw bench and dropped a hammer in it by mistake.

We sold that house 6 years ago. As far as I know, the hammer is still where I left it that night and, unless they plan on pulling up the concete to get rid of it, it won't be moving anytime soon.

--
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
Re:It's a car for women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 14:02 · Score: 0

Right.. for example.. soda pop.. is a liquid with disolved gas in it.

And when you fill a glass of water up in a clear glass: you can see air bubbles there.

If you cook oil on the stove, which is like brake fluid, it does not bubble nearly as much as water does.
Oil blurbs and burbles, but water bubbles a lot.

Only thing about oil, is when it does bubble, it can bubble with form.. like soap bubbles.. but this is not an issue in a brake system.

It seems that water in a brake system would be allowing more air to get in than if you just had pure brake fluid. If you tried to carbonate some OIL it probably wouldn't work easy. If you tried to carbonate water.. it would carbonate fairly easily IN comparison to canola oil, olive oil, or brake fluid, etc.

The other thing that is interesting about water.. is evaporation.. which probably doesn't have anything to do with brake problems.. but might be related to why water absorbs (dissolves) gases easily.
Why, when we leave some water out on a counter does it evaporate? it is not at 100 degrees - but it evaporates. Yet, if we put some OIL on the table with a boiling point of 100, it will not evaporate. Water, having a boiling point of 100, still evaporates at room temperature.. yet oil doesn't (or does it, just in tiny amounts.. like smell)
Re:It's a car for women! by Bad_Feeling · 2004-03-04 14:14 · Score: 1

Boiling break fluid causes the pressure to decrease dramatically, not increase. If you drive down a mountain while riding the breaks, the break fluid will boil. Brakes aren't based on a closed system. The cap on the brake reservoir will automatically release any excess break fluid or pressure and it will simply overflow. When the overheated fluid is applied to the caliper, highly compresseble bubbles form from boiling and begin their trip to the resevoir (the highest point in the system). You apply more pressure, and simply more fluid is boiled and more bubbles are created. System volume may briefly increase but pressure will never build up in the system because the cap will vent the excess compressed gas and excess fluid automatically. I supposed if you welded that cap air tight, then your theory will work, but in real life application it wont.

--
Disclaimer: On the other hand, I am kind of a psycho...
Re:It's a car for women! by trotski · 2004-03-04 15:22 · Score: 1

Hood is the only one that doesn't have a strong case for it. Both hoods and bonnets are typically head coverings.

Well, typically women wear bonnets, so it would make more sense to call the hood of a car made for women a bonnet.

Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week.

--

"Entropy is the bad-guy, and he is everywhere"
Re:It's a car for women! by Dick+Faze · 2004-03-04 17:56 · Score: 1

Many GM cars in the late 60's and early 70's had this (my '67 Chevelle comes to mind) flip-down license plate idea. I actually thought it was better than having an ugly hole in side of your car and I've often wondered why they discontinued the practice. The best gas cap ever was the 69-70 Ford Mustang, it had this giant disc in between the rear brake lights with a chrome horse in it - it didn't even look like a gas cap, but it unscrewed and was tethered to the car by two short cables that kept it in place and out of the way for filling, but an inch or two off the paint.
Re:It's a car for women! by Dick+Faze · 2004-03-04 18:12 · Score: 1

I would say "Carriage" with a "G"

Anyone familiar with the "Rerun" character from the "Whats Happening?" TV show knows how Americans say it.
Re:It's a car for women! by mcbridematt · 2004-03-04 18:53 · Score: 1

No you damn American.

In Australia, it's UNLEADED PETROL/'SUPER LRP'/LPGAS which goes into the PETROL/LPGAS TANK!
Re:It's a car for women! by ultranova · 2004-03-04 21:02 · Score: 1

Brakes aren't based on a closed system. The cap on the brake reservoir will automatically release any excess break fluid or pressure and it will simply overflow.

So my theory was based on incorrect assumption that the brake system was closed, and thus is proven incorrect in the face of evidence. I wonder if I should start doing proper research before posting these theories... Nah, they get modded up anyway ;).

However, it seems that I was correct in stating that venting the steam decreases the pressure, and that not venting it builds up pressure.

I supposed if you welded that cap air tight, then your theory will work, but in real life application it wont.

I'd imagine that cap limits pressure for a reason, so the system would more likely blow up (and lose all pressure afterwards).

--
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Re:It's a car for women! by unitron · 2004-03-05 00:09 · Score: 1

Actually if you sit there holding down the brake pedal with your foot you are using your body's (chemical) energy, you are putting that energy into the braking system as mechanical energy. That energy has to go somewhere and since it probably won't be converted into matter it will be converted into some other form of energy, most likely heat.

--
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Re:It's a car for women! by ajs318 · 2004-03-05 01:20 · Score: 1

The other thing that is interesting about water.. is evaporation.. which probably doesn't have anything to do with brake problems.. but might be related to why water absorbs (dissolves) gases easily.
Dead right they're related. Water is highly polar, which makes it a good solvent for anything with uneven distribution of electrical charge. Since most things have their charges at least slightly unevenly distributed, water can dissolve them. {Carbon tetrachloride has its charges very evenly distributed, being symmetrical, so it's good at dissolving whatever water isn't; but, since that tends to include people's insides, its use tends to be discouraged nowadays}. The molecules are held together by Hydrogen bonds, which have some peculiar behaviours ..... look 'em up in your old A-level chemistry textbook ..... they are weaker than an "ordinary" ionic or covalent bond, but strong enough to keep hydrogen oxide liquid at room temperature. It is also hydrogen bonds that account for the massive latent heat of melting ice and boiling water, the pretty hexagonal structures of ice crystals, and the helix structure of DNA.

--
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
Re:It's a car for women! by DigitumDei · 2004-03-05 03:20 · Score: 1

erm 7.2 kilometers per litre (assuming a good mix of city and freeway driving, almost 11 kilometers to the litre on long distance drives). *runs off to find a converter then gives up* ;)

Thought about the fuel into washer and water into fuel tank issue and went down to the garage to refresh my memory why this doesn't happen. The fuel cap has two leather flaps over it as well as the cap, the one flap goes over the water inlet when its pulled away from the fuel cap. So it'd take actual effort to go spilling one into the other.

Though I still have a plastic cap on the washer inlet. Scrap yard a few hundred km away deals in scrapped porsches and posts what you need, and at a decent price. :)

--
East Coast Brewers
Re:It's a car for women! by FurryFeet · 2004-03-05 03:29 · Score: 1

Right. There wasn't a cop magically there when you got mugged, so they're all pigs.
Try and live in a country with no police force. See how you like that.
Re:It's a car for women! by arkane1234 · 2004-03-05 04:15 · Score: 1

Right. There wasn't a cop magically there when you got mugged, so they're all pigs.
Try and live in a country with no police force. See how you like that.

That's the gripe, the cop WAS around, had it reported to him, I knew who it was. It wasn't a mugging, it was a robbery. It wasn't even on the street, it was in my place of work.

If I lived in a country with no police force, I'd probably be living in either Bosnia, Iraq, Haiti, or one of the other countries with civil unrest. In that case it'd be very different, but I don't. So, I stay with the standard for my country, which can be definately improved.

--
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
Re:It's a car for women! by inline_four · 2004-03-05 05:37 · Score: 1

It won't do anything to the plastic (it might ruin the paint). My gas can is made of plastic.

--
Alexey
Re:It's a car for women! by Reziac · 2004-03-05 09:32 · Score: 1

The mechanics and towing companies will love it. Now when you run low on oil or coolant, you can't just pull over and add the needed fluids. You've got to get the thing serviced by a certified mechanic. And how do you get your fluid-challenged car there? You have it towed.

Yep, REAL practical.

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~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Re:It's a car for women! by zero_offset · 2004-03-05 11:14 · Score: 1

I suppose you're right at some pedantic level, but the quantity of heat in that case is so infinitesimal as to be irrelevant to the discussion.

--
Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005
Re:It's a car for women! by zakezuke · 2004-03-05 11:17 · Score: 1

Not to mention LPG. If you ask for 'gas' over here, that's what you'll get.

LPG = Liquid Propane Gas I believe. I just call it propane my self.

It's not too popular where I live, I suspect it's because it's cost is roughly equilivent to normal auto gasoline. I'm sure in other parts of the world this is not true, possibly due to tax breaks.

--
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
Re:It's a car for women! by zakezuke · 2004-03-06 06:34 · Score: 1

Before cars, there were both boots and trunks. Trunks were big cases used for storing things, like clothing. Boots were the things you put your feet inside. Which one of those two better describes how the storage area in your car is used?

I don't think of the boot being any more silly then the glove box. I'd have to check on auto history, but I do remember there was a time where it was one indeed wore gloves when driving a car. Before paved roads, I don't think it would be any more stilly to store boots in the car. Why boot became popular to describe the rear storage of an auto is beyond me... but no more odd then booting up a computer IMHO.

Why it's still called a glove box I have no idea, I don't typicaly store gloves in there. In fact, I typicaly use it to hold my drink holder, store my car manual, perhaps a map or two. Map box would probally be a more accurate term.

Hood is the only one that doesn't have a strong case for it. Both hoods and bonnets are typically head coverings. Neither makes much sense when it comes to describing part of a car, but neither is better than the other.

Yes, head coverings. Engines have a head, makes perfect sence to me to cover the head so people don't see it. No more or less silly then bras and panties for autos.

--
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
Re:It's a car for women! by Ian+Bell · 2004-03-08 02:17 · Score: 1

LPG = Liquid Petroleum Gas

Some cars do run on this, it's sold as "autogas" by BP here in Britain. So here, a gas tank might really be a gas tank.
It's quite a bit cheaper, but not all filling stations have it.
Re:It's a car for women! by Merk · 2004-03-08 05:11 · Score: 1

Way offtopic now, but "booting a computer" comes from "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps". As in, helping yourself up without help from others.

And if the trunk was indeed called a "boot box", that would make sense, or at least as much as "trunk" or "glove box". But just "boot"??
Re:It's a car for women! by drinkypoo · 2004-03-15 06:14 · Score: 1

The problem is that the desire for fire is usually not to get under the bonnet, but instead, into the boot.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:It's a car for women! by Neward+Rylet · 2004-03-16 12:08 · Score: 1

I always wear gloves to drive. You get a better grip on the wheel and they keep your hands warm (particularly on cold mornings). I have never actually used the glove box to store gloves though, I always keep them in my jacket pockets since if it's cold inside the car, it's cold outside the car and I typically wear them until I'm inside.

yup by cangeceiro · 2004-03-04 01:50 · Score: 5, Funny

thats why they make grinders

Re:yup by Jace+of+Fuse! · 2004-03-04 02:07 · Score: 2, Insightful

No.

Plasma cutters.

--

"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"

Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
Re:yup by Stepping+Razor · 2004-03-04 02:11 · Score: 1

I love plasma cutters. They are like one inch lightsabers.
Re:yup by rbullo · 2004-03-04 03:57 · Score: 1

No, no. Liquid nitrogen cutters.

Sorry, but you have to subscribe to read the whole article...

--
OH NOES!!! IT APPEARS YUO DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO PAY FOR DIS HERE PIZZA! WAHT EVER ARE YOU GOING TO DO!?!?
Re:yup by eofpi · 2004-03-04 04:14 · Score: 1

Nay, thermite.

--
Y'know, you blow up one sun and suddenly everyone expects you to walk on water.
Re:yup by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:29 · Score: 0

*Wielding his home brew diesel-oxygen torch*

Turning the hood of a women designed volvo into a small pile of iron oxide: priceless.

Muhahahah!

???Profit!
Re:yup by Spirilis · 2004-03-04 07:53 · Score: 1

That ambitious attempt at a MasterCard commercial was so horribly butchered it's not even funny.

--
the real at&t mix
Re:yup by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 10:12 · Score: 0

What the hell does a sandwich have to do with it?

The Apple iCar by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 01:50 · Score: 4, Funny

Ah. The Apple iCar. Brought to you buy the same guys who designed the "battery dies, throw it away" iPod.

When my iCar is low on oil, I park it in a city lot, scratch off the VIN, remove the license plate, and walk away. Then it is off to Apple to buy another one.

Re:The Apple iCar by easter1916 · 2004-03-04 01:53 · Score: 1

If the battery is dead (as in no longer usable), why would you want to keep it? Conversely, would you ditch your laptop because the battery needs to be charged?
Re:The Apple iCar by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 01:58 · Score: 0

If the battery is dead (as in no longer usable), why would you want to keep it?
Because the rest of the iPod should still be OK? So if you could change the battery you should be able to keep using it? You know, the same way it is with every other device in the world?
Re:The Apple iCar by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:20 · Score: 0

OK, Kramer. And you'll get a new one free. But what about the deductable? It's already been deducted from the car you're leaving. See, you pocket the cash, if there is any, and you get a new car. I love Seinfeld :)
Re:The Apple iCar by easter1916 · 2004-03-04 02:28 · Score: 1

Ah, so what you really want to do is bitch about the iPod. Have at it.
Re:The Apple iCar by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:08 · Score: 0

You know, the same way it is with every other device in the world?

Haven't seen the new Dell MP3 players reccently have you?
Re:The Apple iCar by Mr+Guy · 2004-03-04 04:24 · Score: 1

Ah you're missing the point. If the battery is dead, you should throw it away. English grammer, the "it" would be the battery. That's the joke, that you should pitch a dead battery and keep the iPod.

--
Never confuse volume with power.
Re:The Apple iCar by easter1916 · 2004-03-08 10:50 · Score: 1

You have restored my faith in /. !!! Thanks for getting the joke and for educating the previous poster.

Argh. by DrEldarion · 2004-03-04 01:50 · Score: 5, Informative

One thing to note for people who don't actually read the article, this is a car that is not only just a concept, but is a concept aimed at the type of women who would never open the hood anyway.

The headline should have been much, much clearer.

Re:Argh. by Lxy · 2004-03-04 01:54 · Score: 2, Funny

Agreed. /me removes tin foil hat. Nothing to see here.

--

There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
Re:Argh. by turgid · 2004-03-04 01:57 · Score: 1

but is a concept aimed at the type of women who would never open the hood anyway.
Yes, and not only that, when it needs servicing it calls the garage and you are called back and invited in by a nice hunky Scandanavian mechanic.
More importantly, the seat upholstry in modular and can be swapped easily to match your outfit.
The water filler for the screen wash is located right next to the petrol (gas) tank filler. Can you imagine the calls to the husband, "I've just put petrol and water in the car." *sob* "It smells of petrol when it rains and the engine is very spluttery...."

--
Stick Men
Re:Argh. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 01:57 · Score: 1, Funny

... this is a car that is not only just a concept, but is a concept aimed at the type of women who would never open the hood anyway.

This does not bode well for us geeks who use the "may I look under your hood" pick up line
Re:Argh. by hummassa · 2004-03-04 02:00 · Score: 1

Anyway, I would NOT, in no circumstances, buy or let anyone I can influence buy a car sold with the hood welded shut.

--
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
Re:Argh. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:05 · Score: 0

Newsflash: no one fucking cares what you think.
Re:Argh. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:05 · Score: 0

it's a slashdot article. what do you expect? most slashdotters are lazy and stupid when it comes to the reading of even the most un-advertisement-filled of linked stories. fucking new york times can keep their stupid news for themselves.
Re:Argh. by Fulcrum+of+Evil · 2004-03-04 02:08 · Score: 1

but is a concept aimed at the type of women who would never open the hood anyway.

Well, I'm a guy who would love to swap my engine on the weekend, if I only had a garage, but I don't, so I pretty much never open the hood either. I still like having a hood that opens, seeing as how I can change the oil at jiffy lube and hire my choice of mechanic to install an LSD.

--
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
Re:Argh. by Smidge204 · 2004-03-04 02:08 · Score: 5, Interesting

My thoughts exactly. In fact, it's completely misleading.

The "Hood" is one peice, so there is no "hatch" like a traditional car. But it's still removable for access. The headline suggests the engine is completely sealed off to prevent anyone but the manufacturer from touching the insides.

Also, you make an interesting point about the type of people that would buy this car for the same rasons it was designed this way ("wold never oen the hood anyway"). From the article:

"So we shifted the filling station for washer fluid to the side of the car, next to where you fill up fuel, and we closed the bonnet for good."

Now taking bets on how often gasoline ends up in the washer fuild or vice versa!

The car should be programmed to discover any problems under the bonnet, then send a message to the garage to let them know.

Well that's something I don't particularly care for...

The mechanics would then contact the women directly to invite them over. ...too easy... :)

"If the car says nothing, then everything is fine," said Ms Temm optimistically. ...said Ms Temm optimistically, while sitting on the side of the road waiting for a tow truck...

So they have implemented a body scanning system...

The results of which are also sent to the mechanics so they can decide if they need to contact the driver directly and invite them to their shop!
=Smidge=
Re:Argh. by parcel · 2004-03-04 02:23 · Score: 2, Informative

Not only is it designed for the type of women who would never open the hood, it is designed by the type of women who would never open the hood. Key excerpts from the article include:

The 'Your Concept Car' (YCC), on display for the first time at the Geneva Motor Show, was designed by a team of women keen to change the way most cars are designed with male drivers in mind.

"Honestly, the only time I open the bonnet on my car is when I want to fill up washer fluid," said Tatiana Butovitsch Temm.
"Do we need to have a one metre square hatch for that or could we do it in another way?

and

Volvo will never actually take this car into production, of course.

But many of the ideas hatched by the female think-tank may still appear in more conventional Volvos, as well as in other cars within the group.

So, no, Volvo does not think that the car's hood should be welded shut. Just someone who wants their seats to match their outfit for the day. Maybe all the women I know are just way too practical, but I don't know a single one who would go through all the hassle to do that.
Re:Argh. by RevDobbs · 2004-03-04 02:27 · Score: 1

No worries, it's just a concept... auto industry jargon for "vaporware".

If half the concept cars seen on the show circuit ever made it to production, there'd be a lot more cheers from the gear head crowd than there would be jeers from the tin-foil-beanie crowd. For every one stupid idea there are three beautiful, too-tourqey-to-be-real dream machines that never make it out of a design studio; case in point, the Chrysler Tomahawk, which I would gladly give my left nut and my first born for.

Though, for technical reasons, probably not in that order.
Re:Argh. by Thing+1 · 2004-03-04 02:28 · Score: 1

I was with you until the last word:
I still like having a hood that opens, seeing as how I can change the oil at jiffy lube and hire my choice of mechanic to install an LSD.

I don't need a mechanic for that, just a good Dead/Phish/Floyd concert...

--
I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
Re:Argh. by horati0 · 2004-03-04 02:29 · Score: 0, Offtopic

The headline should have been much, much clearer.

This is Slashdot, buddy. To paraphrase George Bush Sr., Slashdot headlines are about as clear as Boston Harbor.

--
The neutrality of this sig is disputed.
Re:Argh. by 74nova · 2004-03-04 02:44 · Score: 1

The car should be programmed to discover any problems under the bonnet, then send a message to the garage to let them know.
Well that's something I don't particularly care for...
The mechanics would then contact the women directly to invite them over. ...too easy... :)

suddenly shops have a use for script kiddies! all they need is to hack the car so it will dial home more frequently and theyve made lots more money

--
use your turn signal! you people act like it's divulging information to the enemy
Re:Argh. by arivanov · 2004-03-04 02:57 · Score: 1

So they have implemented a body scanning system...
Current Volvo seating has weight and body distribution detectors. It uses them to recognise who is driving and adjusts seats accordingly. So in fact if they have a readout from the car they know how much the woman weights (as well as where the weight is).
So I would like to see a woman who both never opens the hood and likes to report her weight to the mechanics at the local garage. Can I just hear that again please?
That is besides the fact that Volvo is nowdays part of the Ford empire. Anyone who drives with the aircon off can easily testify that you can distinguish any 7+ year old car with Ford heritage or Ford input (Ford, Peugout, etc). The characteristic smell of burned oil from "specially designed" cylinder heads cannot be mistaken for anything else. Frankly, it is the second last car I would like to have the bonnet welded. And a car I will never buy.

--
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
Re:Argh. by TRACK-YOUR-POSITION · 2004-03-04 03:00 · Score: 4, Insightful

The headline suggests the engine is completely sealed off to prevent anyone but the manufacturer from touching the insides.
So does the BBC article:
The whole front of the car is moulded in one piece which can be removed only by a Volvo mechanic.
The headline was only misleading to the extent that it didn't mention the "designed for women by women" angle--that it's not Volvo wanting to seal everyone's hood, just those of women. So they aren't attacking open source, they're attacking respect for women. Which is kind of worse if you stop and think about it.
Re:Argh. by Twylite · 2004-03-04 03:05 · Score: 1

Any you would not, in any circumstance, buy or let anyone you can influence buy a car sold with a computerised engine management system without the full interface specification for said management system being published and readily available (preferably completely open sourced), right?

You can't service your average BMW, Opel, Mercedes or any other modern computer-managed car without the appropriate equipment to interact with and (more importantly) reset the engine management computer.

And those that are silly enough to try it end up finding that they could have done the service a lot cheaper by going to an approved agent, where the management computer simply says "Flush the oil properly this time and reset me", rather than attempting to replace the oil, oil filter, air filter, carb, belts, etc. Yes, I do know someone who has done this.

The fact is that, for anything but low-range models, it doesn't matter if you have access under the hood unless you can interact with the engine management computer.

--
i-name =twylite [http://public.xdi.org/=twylite], see idcommons.net
Re:Argh. by Smidge204 · 2004-03-04 03:05 · Score: 1

Why would they need to hack the cars? By design, the owner/driver has absolutely no knowledge anything is wrong until the repair shop calls them.

Even the "idiot lights" they use now (so called because they usually don't tell you there's a problem until the damage is already done) are better, because at least you know about it first hand.

Or you can just be a responsible car owner and stick to a scheduled maintenance program...

(Re-reads original post, notices typos... goes to get more coffee)
=Smidge=
Re:Argh. by f64 · 2004-03-04 03:08 · Score: 1

>Now taking bets on how often gasoline ends up in the
>washer fuild or vice versa!

just thought i'd nitpick: the hole for the washer fluid is smaller, and judging from these images, it should't be hard to avoid mistakes. maybe.

f64 : top of the pot
Re:Argh. by Beowulf_Boy · 2004-03-04 03:17 · Score: 1

LSD = limited slip differential

Pretty much the same thing as a posi-traction rear end on older chevy and dodges.
Re:Argh. by Tassach · 2004-03-04 03:26 · Score: 1

Yeah, but those women who don't open the hoods often have husbands or boyfriends who do. There's no way my wife going to spend the family's money on a car that I can't fix, no matter how "cute" it is. Same goes for my daughter, once she's old enough to drive.

--
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
Re:Argh. by Unregistered · 2004-03-04 03:27 · Score: 1

The "Hood" is one peice, so there is no "hatch" like a traditional car. But it's still removable for access. The headline suggests the engine is completely sealed off to prevent anyone but the manufacturer from touching the insides.

It says in the article that it would be removable by a volvo technician. That doesn't mean her husband's friend[1] down the street nor does it mean the mechanic they've been going to forever and trust. They either got to take the car into the dealership and pay out the ass or take it to a specialty mechanic they know nothing about and pay out the ass.

[1]I'm figuring any man that would let his wife buy this can't change a spark plug either
Re:Argh. by sharkey · 2004-03-04 03:29 · Score: 0, Flamebait

the type of women who would never open the hood anyway.
There's another type? *ducks*

--

--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Re:Argh. by Smidge204 · 2004-03-04 03:38 · Score: 1

If a "Volvo Technician" is like any other manufacturer's "Technician", that means a car mechanic that has a piece of paper saying if he works on the car it won't void any warrantees.

That also means you'd need take out a few bolts instead of pulling a lever to get at the engine compartment. Any homeowner who would have (legitimate) interest in getting under the hood will probably have a wrench.

What I mean was, it's not like you'll have to ship it back to the factory for service. It's not hermetically sealed or anything stupid like that - it's just not a simple spring lever.
=Smidge=
Re:Argh. by lucifuge31337 · 2004-03-04 03:52 · Score: 1

Which of course has absolutely nothing to do with opwning the hood, unless there'a a new procedure for working on rears that I'm totally unfamiliar with.

--
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
Re:Argh. by Beowulf_Boy · 2004-03-04 03:54 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Last time I checked, my transmission is under my hood. I have a front wheel drive car though, and yes, a LSD is sold for it if I wished to buy and install it.

So shut your bitch mouth unless you know what your talking about
Re:Argh. by lucifuge31337 · 2004-03-04 03:54 · Score: 1

You can't service your average BMW, Opel, Mercedes or any other modern computer-managed car without the appropriate equipment to interact with and (more importantly) reset the engine management computer.

Not that you've claimed this, but I would like to point out: These are no longer $10,000 machines. You can pick them up at any decent parts shop for under $400 (for nice ones) and about $100 for a basic version that only lists the generic codes....but even that one can be used to clear "MIL Status" (Malfunction Indicator Light).

--
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
Re:Argh. by autocracy · 2004-03-04 03:54 · Score: 1

Considering it was designed by a number of women given free-reign, I don't think we can make that statement.
Volvo's not attacking anything.

--
SIG: HUP
Re:Argh. by Unregistered · 2004-03-04 03:56 · Score: 1

True, but those certified technicians tend to cost a lot more than other techs. My friend was looking for a VW certified tech and they all charged insane prices.
Re:Argh. by tgd · 2004-03-04 04:04 · Score: 1

Porsche found out the hard way in 1972, if I recall correctly, about putting things that look like where one would put gas when its not for gas.

911's have always had the tank fill either on the drivers side fender on the classic 911's, or on the passenger side on the more recent ones.

In 1972 they got the brilliant idea to put the oil fill (these things take 2-3 gallons of oil at a time, and ones that are a little under the weather can burn a quart every 500 miles) behind something that looked an awful lot like a gas flap on the passenger side right behind the passenger door.

I don't think I need to explain what happens when you fill your engine's oil tank with gasoline. Suffice it to say its bad.
Re:Argh. by Andy_R · 2004-03-04 04:47 · Score: 1

You'd be surprised. The Smart City Coupe has it's petrol cap on one side of the car, and an air intake on the other in roughly the same position.

Despite the fact that you would have to ignore the fact that there is no flip-open lid, no cap to unscrew, and no hole that you could concievably fit a hose into, then physically smash a quite robust piece of plastic which has the words 'no petrol' written on it, and then remove the resulting debris, Smart garages are still reporting cars coming in with petrol forced into the air intake.

--
A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
Re:Argh. by jallen02 · 2004-03-04 04:51 · Score: 1

Uhm, so.. you mean to tell me that you expect a daily driven engine to last for 7+ years with the piston rings perfectly intact?

I drove a 10+ year old ford and my piston rings and pistons and heads were all in great shape. (Seals went bad from the car sitting to long).. but I don't buy this myth that Ford makes especially poor engine designs etc.

There aren't many 7 year old cars OUT there that don't leak a little patch of oil or burn a little off if they are on the original engine. The ones that DONT leak oil are the ones that had their filters serviced regularly, all the TSBs were followed for that car, and the oil was changed regularly. Most people NEVER do that. If they did you would find that the engines really last about the same length of time.

I read a study once that took a general health check of a group of cars over a 10 year period. It was comparing foreign cars (ALA: BMW/Mercedes) to domestics.. mostly fords. It found that the people with the more expensive cars were more likely to do the required maintenance. It also found that the domestic owners that followed the required maint schedules had cars in good shape, just like the foreign cars. Hummmmn. Now lets apply occams razor? Which seems more likely.. that there is some majorly defective thing about fords engineering that causes them to "smell like oil??" or that the users of said cars who paid much less for them simply don't care as much about the cars and thus dont do the maint.

Something to think about

For the record I have a 1987 2.3L 4cyl mustang with nary an oil leak and minimal oil consumption on completely original stuff. The trick? It was well taken care of with regular maint.

Jeremy
Re:Argh. by Tassach · 2004-03-04 05:04 · Score: 1

These are no longer $10,000 machines. You can pick them up at any decent parts shop for under $400 (for nice ones) and about $100 for a basic version
Plus, most good auto parts stores have a stock of specialist tools like this you can borrow on deposit, or at worst rent for a nominal charge. No need to buy a $400 tool when you can rent it for $10/day for the 3 days this year you'll actually use it. It's not even like it's out of the way -- if your car is broken you're going to be making a trip to the auto parts store anyway.

--
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
Re:Argh. by Fulcrum+of+Evil · 2004-03-04 05:06 · Score: 1

Now all I need is a $1000 5 gas sensor for tuning. Perhaps I can rent that.

--
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
Re:Argh. by Fulcrum+of+Evil · 2004-03-04 05:16 · Score: 1

Which of course has absolutely nothing to do with opwning the hood, unless there'a a new procedure for working on rears that I'm totally unfamiliar with.

Well actually, you drop the engine on my car, but you still need to open the hood in order to disconnect a bunch of stuff first.

--
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
Re:Argh. by lucifuge31337 · 2004-03-04 05:20 · Score: 1

Now all I need is a $1000 5 gas sensor for tuning. Perhaps I can rent that.

I've made friends with a guy who owns a gas station. That seem to be the only way for now. ;)

--
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
Re:Argh. by jsebrech · 2004-03-04 05:59 · Score: 1

it's not Volvo wanting to seal everyone's hood, just those of women. So they aren't attacking open source, they're attacking respect for women. Which is kind of worse if you stop and think about it.

Why do so many people assume sexism is always a negative thing? Last time I looked around women and men were not identical (thank God for that). If there is a difference (and there is), it serves no one to pretend there isn't. Products can be designed to suit women (or men) better. Just like products can be designed to fit some races better. Too bad the overzealous PC society of today can't deal with that little piece of reality.
Re:Argh. by Sanity · 2004-03-04 06:12 · Score: 1

One thing to note for people who don't actually read the article, this is a car that is not only just a concept, but is a concept aimed at the type of women who would never open the hood anyway.
And reversing the analogy - this is why the whole free software argument about "would you buy a car if you couldn't open the hood?" is lost on most people. Most people have no desire to open the hood of their car, they get a mechanic to do that.
Re:Argh. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 06:36 · Score: 0

It even comes complete with a pair of lead shoes, one for the gas and one for the brake
Re:Argh. by promethean_spark · 2004-03-04 06:54 · Score: 1

Yeah, it's more like locking the PC cases in a library shut. More to keep the idiots out. Now if the car alarm were under that unopenable hood, it'd be fairly tough to disable to steal the car. Of course if your battery dies, you need to be towed to the shop instead of jumped by a good samaritan.
Re:Argh. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 07:20 · Score: 0

The interface and software for my Audi A4 cost me $200. This also lets me diagnose problems (OBD-II readout), create boost maps, ignition advance plots, etc.

Pretty useful, if you're into cars. The $200 tool is roughly the same as the $1500 one from VAG, in terms of functionality. It exceeds it in terms of the graphing/logging features.
Re:Argh. by Buran · 2004-03-04 07:32 · Score: 1

For VW/Audi owners:

http://www.ross-tech.com

Join a local club (find one through the regional forums on http://www.vwvortex.com) and make friends with the members. Someone will have this tool.

I've already saved the $100 "you had a momentary sensor blip" stealership idiot fee once! That alone was worth the $15 I've spent so far in membership fees as a founding member, plus I also saved a bundle on getting a suspension installed, plus I'll save a bundle more with future mods and some minor fix-it stuff on the next club "install day" coming up in two weeks.

I have a 2000 Golf. For other makes, I'm sure similar tools exist, so try looking for enthusiast websites for you car.

--
i am a soviet space shuttle
Re:Argh. by Buran · 2004-03-04 07:42 · Score: 1

Bah. Just find a local club. There's always a few wrenchers, and if you're a member clubs will often hold "install days" where you can get stuff installed for free or for the price of a few beers (or sodas, if you're like me and you don't drink). I have some minor additions to make to my 2000 Golf that I'm going to get done at that time, with some work done by me, some by others.

My club's next one is in about 2-3 weeks. And as long as the job's done right, your dealer can't yell at you. (Also by law the Magnuson-Moss Act blocks dealers from voiding your entire warranty, just for whatever part is out of spec and was not properly serviced. If I get someone to work on part A, and they do it right, the dealer can't complain, nor can they void any warranty on part B.)

--
i am a soviet space shuttle
Re:Argh. by h4rm0ny · 2004-03-04 08:18 · Score: 1

Yep - there are certainly differences between men and women, no argument there, but I don't interpret sexism as meaning taking account of these differences, I take sexism to mean treating one sex (male or female) more poorly than the other.

Now to me, whether or not this car was designed by women, I think it is sexist. Why? Because the changes made 'for women' seem so extremely patronizing. They've sealed the bonnet because women don't know anything about engines? If Volvo had reshaped the seat to better suit a woman's arse, or made seat-belts that were better suited to a woman's chest, well then that's taking account of a genuine difference. The only thing that approaches that here however is the split for pony tails and be honest - it takes thirty seconds to untie or tie most pony tails. Not to mention that men have pony tails too.

Yes - more men than women know how to maintain a car, but not all, and it's that generalisation that makes it an ism

Of course, people do have different ideas about what sexism is. I think people are touchier about it in the USA than the UK (and in the UK more than in Scandinavia). I went on a date with an american girl once who, when I opened the taxi door for her, slapped me in the stomach for being sexist. She said I shouldn't treat her differently because she was a woman! "So you want me to hit you back," I asked?

She didn't laugh.

--

Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
Re:Argh. by Propaganda13 · 2004-03-04 08:25 · Score: 1

I don't have a major problem with not doing engine work on a new car, even though I've done enough work on my old cars. It's the stupid little things that normal people or normal mechanics wouldn't be able to do easily like changing the battery. My guess is no roadside service. Trust me when "those women designers" are stranded in winter because of a dead battery, and the Volvo Mechanic can't get there for a couple of hours, we'll see a redesign.

Also magnets in the seats??? That definitely needs to be changed to another type of fastener.
Re:Argh. by rizzo420 · 2004-03-04 08:49 · Score: 1

most anyone that knows anything about cars and engines probably wouldn't buy the classic "family car" anywayas, so who gives a crap what volvo is doing. it'd be more expensive to have the car worked on, which would make lots of people less likely to buy the car since the whole front would have to be removed to get at the engine (that would probably take a bit of time to do in any regular garage, so you'd have to go to a volvo dealer and pay 3 times as much). it's never going to happen because it's just not worthwhile. they did say the seats were designed for women (more than just the ponytail split). i'm also sure there's more features that are there as well (a place to conveniently put a purse). the fact remains however, that it would be more expensive, and where do you draw the line between designing it for women and making it unisex? can't make all the seats designed for women because you have other passengers. so in reality, it's just not worth it to make thsi car. certain features would make sense, but others would not. i think it is completely bogus with teh whole "car phones mechanic who phones driver" thing. that's just plain dumb. oh, and the body scan isn't that great either. i know someone with a chrysler 300m (or something like that). it's got different keys for different drivers and automatically adjusts the mirrors, seat, and steering wheel depending on the key (after you make your manual adjustments, it remembers). i think that's pretty damn cool. that's a good idea, but the body scan thing so thtat it adjusts depending on your body will still require you to make your own adjustments for your own comfort, so it's just something that costs extra money.

--
please me, have no regrets.
Re:Argh. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 11:50 · Score: 0

... this is a car that is not only just a concept, but is a concept aimed at the type of women who would never open the hood anyway.

Because we all know, if this type of woman doesn't need to open the hood, then NO ONE does! She'll just throw it away when it needs service, and buy a new one. Can't have easy access for service, because SHE doesn't need it!

And since none of you PC (politically correct) PW (kitty whipped) wimps will say it... this is a good indication that women are stup ^K^K^K^K intellectually impared. (He said posting as an AC.)
Re:Argh. by drinkypoo · 2004-03-15 06:48 · Score: 1

However it is impossible that it could be opened only by a volvo mechanic. Let me count the ways: First, someone would find out how to get/make the tools to open it, reset the computer, what have you. Second, it will probably be something stupid like security torx. Third, at very worst you could replace the engine management system with your own, cut away whatever protection they have installed and replace it with your own latch system, and have your own damn car. It's not even illegal because if a company will spend the money to do the proper testing you can even make such modifications to your car and pass California smog tests. (It's actually legal to swap a motor into any car from any other car of the same year or newer as long as all smog equipment is carried over, including the catalytic converter, the factory intake and exhaust or CARB-approved replacements, etc.)
Now, I think that most people in general would prefer not to be auto mechanics. They don't want to have to care. Some of us kind of enjoy it (when we're not scraping skin off our knuckles and swearing) and we likely wouldn't be buying a car like that anyway unless we had too much time and money on our hands, and an evil plot hatching. But the people who most readily admit it are women, because they are freed from being expected to know anything about automobiles by a gender stereotype. Unfortunately this applies also to the ones who do know about cars, and those who want to know about cars, in which case it becomes oppression. Nonetheless there is a vocal segment of feminine humanity which strongly disavows any desire to ever have to do anything but put gas in the car, and even that is pretty annoying when you think about it. Frankly I think that we ought to find ways to get used to the idea of shrinking all of our vehicles (there's way too many big trucks around here to drive around in MDI's air car or anything) and moving towards vehicles which aren't based around explosions occurring inside of them, which is wasteful as all hell, but maybe it's just me. Certainly nothing beats gasoline for energy density and ease of use, but the secondary costs are somewhat excessive.
So uh, returning from rant again, if women will admit they don't want to work on cars, and volvo recognizes that they're willing to admit it and is willing to work with them and sell them something they might want, what's wrong with that? I'm sure they'll sell plenty of them to guys, too, who would rather just not deal with it, maybe even some who would know what they were doing if the hood were off. And if they make it modular enough it might make it really convenient to work on the car, which would be a nice side-effect. Just lift the fenders right off and maybe disconnect a cable or two, with extension cables available to and through dealers (and knockoffs available soon enough thereafter) for diagnosis of electrical problems and so forth.
If you think about it the whole auto industry has forever been trying to find ways to go modular, without any real success whatsoever. Chrysler did their little backbone fuel cell concept, which I don't think anyone took too seriously though there was the usual buzz over it. Clearly Chrysler was just larking. Everyone's buzz has been a rehash of something. Ford's GT, for example, which is a beautiful car though one might feel that it somewhat misses the point of the 2100 pound original. This is just a step in that direction. Consumers in general have been pissing and moaning about reliability, which to some extent is well-justified, so here comes a car which is supposed to just do the job for you.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

Mechanics? by kravlor · 2004-03-04 01:51 · Score: 5, Insightful

There's something about trusting the mechanics to tell me when my car's broken that I don't really like...

Besides, what happens when the radio transmitter breaks?

Re:Mechanics? by elmegil · 2004-03-04 01:55 · Score: 1

I want to know how the mechanics get into a welded shut hood to effect a repair.

--
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
Re:Mechanics? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:00 · Score: 0

The same way they remove a welded-on body panel to replace it? They're clever, these mechanics, you know.
Re:Mechanics? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:00 · Score: 0

Giant tin opener.

Then they weld it shut afterwards, and then attach little metal flowers to cover the mess.
Re:Mechanics? by blahlemon · 2004-03-04 02:01 · Score: 3, Insightful

The front molding is all one piece that comes off with a specialized tool. It said in the article that only a Volvo technician could take it off. Obvioiusly because they wouldn't sell the tools to the mass market.
Not that specialized tools is a new idea. Car companies have been doing that for years to try and get people to bring their cars back to the dealer for repairs.

--
It take more faith to believe in evolution than it takes to believe in God
Re:Mechanics? by no+longer+myself · 2004-03-04 02:01 · Score: 5, Funny

My mechanic would never lie to me! He always charges me a fair price for my weekly fill-up of "blinker fluid".
Re:Mechanics? by turgid · 2004-03-04 02:05 · Score: 1

Besides, what happens when the radio transmitter breaks?
Phone husband, cry, proclaim the End of the World.

--
Stick Men
Re:Mechanics? by b0r0din · 2004-03-04 02:10 · Score: 4, Funny

I can just see the manly mechanics in the shop.

"Hey, Bob, can you do me a favor while I'm filling out this paperwork and take the bonnet off that car so we can do the oil change."
"The What?"
"The bonnet."
"You mean the welded hood?"
"It's called a bonnet."
"Whatever. Sissy boy."
"What was that?"
"Nothing. I'm just working on that BONNET for you. Let me know if you want me to fill up your panties as well."
Re:Mechanics? by Fulcrum+of+Evil · 2004-03-04 02:11 · Score: 1

The front molding is all one piece that comes off with a specialized tool. It said in the article that only a Volvo technician could take it off. Obvioiusly because they wouldn't sell the tools to the mass market.

No problem: Haynes will have a way to replace the special tool with two screwdrivers and a 2x4.

--
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
Re:Mechanics? by dknj · 2004-03-04 02:13 · Score: 1

except the tool would probably be made available to the mass market, you just won't be able to go to your local autozone and purchase one. on my car i need a special tool to screw my rear brake piston in if i ever want to do work on the brakes. luckily instead of being forced to go to my dealer and paying insane prices, i can just buy the tool (or a clone) and do the work myself.

-dk
Re:Mechanics? by Bendebecker · 2004-03-04 02:14 · Score: 1

And imagine the service charge when only a volvo mechanic can fix it! Had to replace the oil, that will be $400 for removing and then replacing the hood, $75 for other maintence, and $25 for the oil filter. Whoops, your car has an oil leak so rather than look for a whole in the pan we just went ahead and replaced the whole engine...

--
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
Re:Mechanics? by orthogonal · 2004-03-04 02:18 · Score: 1

There's something about trusting the mechanics to tell me when my car's broken that I don't really like...

And not only that. From the article
The car should be programmed to discover any problems under the bonnet, then send a message to the garage to let them know.

The mechanics would then contact the women directly to invite them over.

This manages to condescend to women, imply that men who are uninterested in auto repair are "unmanly", and be as creepy as a those Microsoft ads where "the computer knows", all in two sentences. A masterpiece of brevity and disdain for the customer!

I know that I don't want a mechanic contacting me; were I a woman I'd find in it a worrisome potential for stalking as well.

Robert Heinlein -- whose work always featured competent women who could take care of themselves not to mention their own car repairs --, in his excellent novel The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress features a sentient computer that takes advantage of the Moon's tyrannical government's over-reliance on it to foment revolution. Interestingly, one of the computer's co-conspirators comments, of his family farm, that they would never be so foolish as to completely automate it -- instead, every critical piece of machinery had a manual override (indeed, the character making this observation is named Manny), in case of emergency.

(For another Heinlein allusion, I'll copy my current sig here: "No new stem cells, anti-gay marriage amendment, Inquisitor Ashcroft, Judge Roy Moore. Is Reverend Nehemiah Scudder next?")

--
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
Re:Mechanics? by Speed+Racer · 2004-03-04 02:27 · Score: 4, Funny

My mechanic would never lie to me! He always charges me a fair price for my weekly fill-up of "blinker fluid".
I hope you don't let him use just any old blinker fluid when you can get KaleCo High Quality Synthetic Blinker Fluid for just $5.99. Help save wear and tear on your flash-synchros while saving our petroleum reserves at the same time.

--
Free Mac Mini. Yes, I'm
Re:Mechanics? by nizo · 2004-03-04 02:36 · Score: 4, Insightful

There's something about trusting the mechanics to tell me when my car's broken that I don't really like...
But how else would we know what our boss feels like when we say the harddrive just died on the RAID attached to the mailserver, and even though the machine is chugging along just fine, we really do need a new disk?

--
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
Re:Mechanics? by WWWWolf · 2004-03-04 02:54 · Score: 1

The front molding is all one piece that comes off with a specialized tool. It said in the article that only a Volvo technician could take it off. Obvioiusly because they wouldn't sell the tools to the mass market.

Heh. How long before we hear car mechanics going like...
"Look, I don't have the necessary tool here, just wait a moment..." (Gnashes teeth and almost bites the cigarette in half, picks a short metal stick from the toolbox, pokes it in one of the holes under the car and the front of the car opens right up) "I hate these new cars."
...or...
"This is one of them newfangled ones that don't have right hood. Special tools, schmecial tools... Hold this wrench a while, will you? I need to concentrate." (Does a Kung Fu crane pose for a moment with eyes closed - no screaming, though - then suddenly kicks a specific location of the side of the car, making the front open) "See? Easy when you know how!"
Re:Mechanics? by afidel · 2004-03-04 02:59 · Score: 1

You jest but many Farrari's are exactly like that. Typical charge for changing the oil on an Enzo is around $1,000 because the oil is $60 a quart and you need 13 quarts per change. Even the somewhat more normal 360 Modena is expensive:

"Oil changes run in the neighbourhood of $350 and are to be performed every 10,000 km. Why so expensive? Because the Ferrari only sips fine European synthetic oils, and because removing the underbody is required in order to gain access to the drains, and that takes a bit more time and care. " link

--
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Re:Mechanics? by dasmegabyte · 2004-03-04 03:14 · Score: 2, Interesting

get people to bring their cars back to the dealer for repairs

More like to prevent non specialists from working on non-standard parts. Or to prevent accidents.

For example, I drive a VW Passat. Most of the connectors are simply bolts with either hex, torx or phillips head connectors, very easy to take off and remove. But the rear breaks, and the manual transmission fluid, take specialized tools. Why? Well, the transmission, because it's right next to the oil. They don't want some oil guy accidentally draining the the trans fluid, because you have to load it from the top (which I THINK means dropping the tranny a bit, AND having the tranny fluid available). The rear breaks, on the other hand, take a special tool because they are threaded to prevent lock ups on hills on cold days. You have to push in while twisting to replace the pads.

Now, if somebody didn't know this, and just assumed he could put a C clamp on it, he'd break the caliper. So there's no way to put a C clamp on it (lord knows I tried). The idea is, if you know enough to buy the special tool (which cost me $20 from germanautoparts.com), you know enough to do the repair.

--
Hey freaks: now you're ju
Re:Mechanics? by decsnake · 2004-03-04 03:57 · Score: 1

the scan tool for current BMWs is ONLY available from BMW and it costs upward of $10,000. They only made it available to independent repair shops under pressure from the government
Re:Mechanics? by whoisjoe · 2004-03-04 03:57 · Score: 1

Where in the article does it say anything about requiring a specialized tool to get under the hood?

Even if this is true (which I doubt), it is possible to obtain special tools for cars--it's just more difficult to justify. Even if I had a car like this (see below), I seriously doubt this would get in the way of anything I wanted to do any more than CSS got in Jon Johansen's way (I'm a very resourceful shadetree mechanic ;-)

Anyone worried about this may want to keep in mind that it's not in the manufacturer's interest to make their cars difficult to work on--especially when it reduces maintainability or increases maintenance costs for the owner, because it makes the car less attractive.

It's interesting to hear people complain about technological changes in the automotive world (a big one is carburettors vs. fuel injection). Things change. If you want to continue playing around with your car, you have to accept that things are more complex and change with them. Not nearly as many people complain about the increasing complexity of software (you have to admit--even Windows 3.1 is an improvement over DOS).

Of course, I can honestly say I've never considered a car that was designed for women anyway.
Re:Mechanics? by lucifuge31337 · 2004-03-04 04:01 · Score: 1

No problem: Haynes will have a way to replace the special tool with two screwdrivers and a 2x4.

I'm glad there's at least one other person posting here that knows something about cars and wrenching on them in driveways.

--
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
Re:Mechanics? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:18 · Score: 0

from the parent's link:

blinker fluid should be changed every 150,000 blinks

who knew?
Re:Mechanics? by Quadfreak0 · 2004-03-04 04:33 · Score: 1

Dont foget to ask for "Elbow Grease" and "head lamp fluid". http://www.redvsblue.com
Re:Mechanics? by damniel · 2004-03-04 05:27 · Score: 1

It was my understanding that there were Federal laws in the US, that prevented manufacturers from doing this. The idea, is that your local mechanic doesn't go out of business because the dealer is the only one who can work on the car. If this car is ever introduced in the US, they have to make the tool publicly available. On the other hand, they could keep Joe Car Owner from working on his own car, by just making everything accesible only if the car is placed on a lift.
Re:Mechanics? by TFloore · 2004-03-04 05:34 · Score: 1

But how else would we know what our boss feels like when we say the harddrive just died on the RAID attached to the mailserver, and even though the machine is chugging along just fine, we really do need a new disk?
There's a small difference here...

When you tell the boss you need a new harddrive for the RAID, you don't personally benefit from the company's expenditure. (Even if the RAID is really fine, you just needed more storage on the system, right? You're not going to take the harddrive home for your personal mp3 server... right?)

When your car dealership calls you up and tells you that you need a $800 brake job, they do benefit from the expenditure. The dealership directly benefits from lying to you.

It may feel the same to the person spending the money, but the possibility for mis-use is rather different.

--
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is... Oops. Frank, I've got your sig again! Where's mine?
Re:Mechanics? by AK+Marc · 2004-03-04 05:36 · Score: 1

I'm sure you don't trust your doctor when he says you have a medical problem. Don't bother with a second opinion, they are all in on it together.

While you are at it, if an IT person comes up and tells you that there is a problem with the mail server, but you still get mail, you should assume he is lying until he proves otherwise. I'm sure he is just trying to get a few spare hard drives for his home machine.

If you don't trust your mechanic, go somewhere else. Or are they all out to get you?

--
Learn to love Alaska
Re:Mechanics? by comedian23 · 2004-03-04 05:47 · Score: 1

>Well, the transmission, because it's right next to the oil. They don't want some oil guy accidentally draining the the trans fluid

Good God! I hope the person changing the oil can tell the difference between the oil pan and the transmission. I see your point, but couldn't they have gotten the same results by simply using a different non-standard sized or shaped plug for the tranny fluid? Like a square that you couldn't use a socket on, but could still uncrew using common tools, rather than having to buy a proprietary part?

-Comedian
Re:Mechanics? by brandorf · 2004-03-04 06:22 · Score: 1

God, my Tarus needed a damn tool for the brake pistons as well. This was of course discovered after both fron tires were removed, and the piston had extended all the way, so there was no driving to the auto store for the time being. It took a little head scratching, but a large screwdriver and a c-clamp did the trick.

--

Bork Bork Bork!!
Re:Mechanics? by gnu-generation-one · 2004-03-04 07:23 · Score: 1

"I hope you don't let him use just any old blinker fluid when you can get KaleCo High Quality Synthetic Blinker Fluid for just $5.99."

Do you connect those with monster Hi-Fi cables? You can almost hear the extra clarity.
Re:Mechanics? by Buran · 2004-03-04 07:44 · Score: 1

You need a special tool for a lot of cars to service or replace or upgrade the brakes. Or the springs and shocks. AutoZone lends 'em out for free, though.

--
i am a soviet space shuttle
Re:Mechanics? by Buran · 2004-03-04 07:50 · Score: 1

Go to AutoZone or look at specialty VW upgrade sellers. At least one (I forget which -- Hillside Imports, maybe?) will ship the tool out to you if you give them a credit card number as a deposit. You use the tool, fix/upgrade your brakes, ship it back within a certain number of days.

--
i am a soviet space shuttle
Re:Mechanics? by Tokerat · 2004-03-04 07:56 · Score: 1

The car should be programmed to discover any problems under the bonnet, then send a message to the garage to let them know. The mechanics would then contact the women directly to invite them over.
They should add this to the kernel to help geeks get dates.

*rimshot*

--
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
Re:Mechanics? by glesga_kiss · 2004-03-04 08:10 · Score: 1

There have also been recent moves in the UK (maybe EU) to do the same, i.e. end the dealer franchise hold over drivers.
Re:Mechanics? by h4rm0ny · 2004-03-04 08:14 · Score: 1

Perhaps - but do we really want to see another technology arms race kick off?

I've heard the idea before that the bonnet should be released by magnets or bolts that respond to an encrypted radio signal. Okay - so now you're downloading the signal from P2P and Ford is trying to prosecute and a Norwegian kid is taken to court for changing his battery?

Have we been here before?

--

Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
Re:Mechanics? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 09:43 · Score: 0

AutoZone lends 'em out for free, though.
But you have to pay a SCO license to use it.
Re:Mechanics? by elmegil · 2004-03-04 11:37 · Score: 1

I can't see them doing that much work every 3 months. Really.

--
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
Re:Mechanics? by daniel_yokomiso · 2004-03-04 15:32 · Score: 1

There's something about trusting the mechanics to tell me when my car's broken that I don't really like...
But how else would we know what our boss feels like when we say the harddrive just died on the RAID attached to the mailserver, and even though the machine is chugging along just fine, we really do need a new disk?

Your mechanic has a monetary reason to lie/overprice you, while you have no such reason to lie when asking for a new disk.

--
Disclaimer: If I disagree with you I'm probably trolling...

Oh yeah... should do well. by mdemeny · 2004-03-04 01:51 · Score: 1

Can I get a boost?

No.

Re:Oh yeah... should do well. by Chess_the_cat · 2004-03-04 02:02 · Score: 1

What if they'd design it so you still have access to things like battery terminals, windshield washer, oil, and air filter? At any rate, I'd buy a car that has its hood welded shut. Other than the above minor things what do I have to do in there anyway?

--
Support the First Amendment. Read at -1
Re:Oh yeah... should do well. by Mr.+Slippery · 2004-03-04 02:35 · Score: 1

Other than the above minor things what do I have to do in there anyway?

Maybe you don't do anything. But you still want your buddy with the awesome set of tools to be able to help you out:
"I've having problems xyz with the car. Guess I'll have to take it to the dealer and pay hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars to get it fixed."
"Dude, you just need new spark plugs. I can do it in half an hour. Pay for the parts and buy me a six-pack of good beer and we're even."
"That would be great! Oh, except this car is designed so that only Volvo technicians have the special tool to open up the hood. Shoot."

--
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Re:Oh yeah... should do well. by TheRaven64 · 2004-03-04 04:01 · Score: 1

Actually, that's one of my pet hates about current car designs. Why don't they have a kettle lead socket, or similar, so you can plug them into the mains? Most of the time cars have flat batteries is if they have been parked overnight with the lights on outside someone's house where there is mains electricity readily available. It would save a lot of people a lot of hassle if they could just plug the car in for a little while to recharge enough to start.

--
I am TheRaven on Soylent News

computers + internal combustion engines = stupid. by intertwingled · 2004-03-04 01:51 · Score: 3, Insightful

Personally, I think that the union of computers and internal combustion engines is just plain stupid. One EMP burst and every automobile that has an Engine Control Computer within range of the EMP is dead. =/ Plus, I am mechanically inclined and often it is cheaper and easier for me to do my own maintenance and minor repairs. Welding the engine hood shut is doubly stupid. What if there is an engine fire?

--
-- SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER.

Nice Quote! by T-Kir · 2004-03-04 01:51 · Score: 4, Funny

The car should be programmed to discover any problems under the bonnet, then send a message to the garage to let them know.

The mechanics would then contact the women directly to invite them over.

Is it me, or do I have a dirty mind this afternoon? ;)

--
Are you local? There's nothing for you here!

Re:Nice Quote! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 01:58 · Score: 3, Funny

Ha ha.

Dear Mrs Svensson,

Please come over to the Orebro garage - I need to tweak your flange.

Lars.
Re:Nice Quote! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:10 · Score: 0

I thought that quote stood out too. I can just imagine . . .
"Hey lady, your why don't you come on over so I can change your oil, maybe rotate your tires a bit? Oh yeah, the car can come along if it wants."
Re:Nice Quote! by AndroidCat · 2004-03-04 02:15 · Score: 1

Maytag should use this to help out their Lonely Guy tm washer repairman.

--
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Re:Nice Quote! by 74nova · 2004-03-04 02:55 · Score: 1

Dear Mrs Svensson,

im showing that you need a lube job and it says i need to check your rear end as well. youd better get right down here

--
use your turn signal! you people act like it's divulging information to the enemy
Re:Nice Quote! by nate1138 · 2004-03-04 03:00 · Score: 1

The mechanics would then contact the women directly to invite them over.

Car Owner: I think something might be wrong, I'm runnin' HOT!

Mechanic: Hmm, I'm not sure what's wrong. I'll have to check your tailpipe.

--
Where's my lobbyist? Right here.

ummm what happens if the engine is on fire? by dark404 · 2004-03-04 01:51 · Score: 5, Funny

What happens when the engine overheats or you get in an accident and the engine is on fire?

"I'm sorry mr. firefighter, only a certified volvo firefighter is allowed to put out this fire"

Re:ummm what happens if the engine is on fire? by nicedream · 2004-03-04 02:03 · Score: 1

I'm guessing that an engine fire would probably make the hood too hot to touch...
Re:ummm what happens if the engine is on fire? by jonin · 2004-03-04 02:12 · Score: 1

That's why we wear really heavy bunker gloves, so we can touch things that are hot.
Re:ummm what happens if the engine is on fire? by Motherfucking+Shit · 2004-03-04 02:20 · Score: 2, Funny

What happens when the engine overheats or you get in an accident and the engine is on fire?
That's what you get for driving a <slashjoke>candle truck</slashjoke>

--
"BSD: Free as in speech. Linux: Free as in beer. Windows 10: Free as in herpes." --Man On Pink Corner in #52607549.
Re:ummm what happens if the engine is on fire? by chiller2 · 2004-03-04 02:23 · Score: 1, Funny

dark404 wrote...
What happens when the engine overheats or you get in an accident and the engine is on fire?

"I'm sorry mr. firefighter, only a certified volvo firefighter is allowed to put out this fire"

It's obvious really. This car was designed for aesthetics before functionality by the same beings that damage their feet by cramming them into triangle shaped shoes with high heels because "they look cute!"

--
--- Commission free trading & free stock up to $500 - use http://share.robinhood.com/kelvinp6 :)
Re:ummm what happens if the engine is on fire? by dave420 · 2004-03-04 02:27 · Score: 3, Insightful

They'll put a fire-axe right through it, and pump water in. Simple. They're not trying to protect the paintwork, but stop it exploding. Dinging the hood is the least of their worries :-P
Re:ummm what happens if the engine is on fire? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:31 · Score: 0

what happens if I win lotto, just about the same chance.
Re:ummm what happens if the engine is on fire? by Unregistered · 2004-03-04 03:31 · Score: 2, Interesting

If the car's on fire you do not want to open the hood unless you have a fire extinguisher that can put it out. With the hood on, the fire can't get much oxygen adn will either burn slow or even go out while if you open the hood, it can bun as fast as it can find flammable stuff.
Re:ummm what happens if the engine is on fire? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 06:07 · Score: 0

Actually, they only need to stop it exploding if they can't extracate all the occupants. Otherwise, they couldn't give two shits about the car.
Re:ummm what happens if the engine is on fire? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 06:38 · Score: 0

IMFF (I am a fire fighter). Very few engine compartments are completely sealed, the underside is w-i-d-e open. If the hood stays down, the heat is trapped/reflected back into the compartment. Hot air trapped by the hood doesn't contain as much oxygen, but in an engine fire(misnomer metal engines are really hard to ignite; hoses, wire insulation, and petrochemical fluids on the other hand...), lots of byproducts from incomplete combustion (why the smoke is black) form and can be trapped, and they are usually doubleplus flammable.

The major reason not to open the hood is that flames go up, usually where you have to stand in order to open the hood
Re:ummm what happens if the engine is on fire? by gnu-generation-one · 2004-03-04 07:30 · Score: 1

"They'll put a fire-axe right through it, and pump water in."

More likely they'll start spraying CO2 through the grille -- it's more efficient, it doesn't let any extra oxygen into the fire, and it doesn't involve touching a bonnet with a fire underneath it.
Re:ummm what happens if the engine is on fire? by orim · 2004-03-04 08:13 · Score: 1

If your engine is on fire, what's the chance you can save anything in there? And if your engine is on fire, isn't opening the hood and letting oxygen in the last thing you want to do?

Besides, I've been driving for a while now... and I have not yet seen a car spontaneously combust.

What are the odds?

--
"If you could only see what I've seen with your eyes..." - Roy Batty

they have it all wrong by adamruck · 2004-03-04 01:51 · Score: 1

"It is storage, storage and more storage," said Ms Christiansen

umm if it was relly designed for women it would have no storage...that way there is no place to put stuff and less room for junk to collect, same thing applies to purses and houses.

--
Selling software wont make you money, selling a service will.

Re:they have it all wrong by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 01:58 · Score: 0

It doesn't matter if there's room... They collect stuff anyway.

My girlfriend doesn't care if she has room or not... Her crap is more important than being able to sleep in her bedroom (no joke!). You have to wade through two tons of junk (still brand new in shopping bags) just to get to the front door!

There's a reason I'm posting anonymously...
Re:they have it all wrong by theLastPossibleName · 2004-03-04 02:15 · Score: 1

Exactly!! I like how women's pants and clothing typically don't have pockets. And if they do, the pockets are too small to hold the car key with the multitude of useless junk attached or the overly long women's wallets. I find everytime I go anywhere with my fiance, she asks me to put her keys in my pocket. With my pda, wallet, and cell phone how am I supposed to fit that? Sorry for the short rant.
Re:they have it all wrong by PhuCknuT · 2004-03-04 05:00 · Score: 1

Problem is, it's not just designed FOR women, it's designed BY women.

just my opinion by greechneb · 2004-03-04 01:51 · Score: 4, Insightful

the article says only a volvo mechanic would be able to remove the bonnet... basically the whole front end. You think your mechanic will want to remove the whole front end just to replace a $5 part that would take 30 minutes, that will now take 2 hours? Of course they do get paid by the hour, so maybe it is a way of getting more shop time....

Re:just my opinion by easter1916 · 2004-03-04 01:55 · Score: 1

"bonnet" is British English for "hood". There's a word I haven't heard in ten years.
Re:just my opinion by i.r.id10t · 2004-03-04 01:56 · Score: 1

No worse than having to pull the engine on my Porsche 356 to replace the #3 spark-plug. (Using Weber carbs instead of the factory Solex or Zeniths, no room to get a tool in there to access it).

Of course, while the engine is out, I get to do all sorts of stuff to make it Better, like changing my starter bushing, checking the solenoid, starter brushes, adding a hard-start relay, cleaning everything, etc.

--
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
Re:just my opinion by wayward_son · 2004-03-04 01:56 · Score: 4, Funny

This is a Volvo we're talking about here. There aren't any $5 parts on a Volvo. (At least in the U.S.)
Re:just my opinion by Hieronymus+Howard · 2004-03-04 01:57 · Score: 1

A car designed by women sounds about as practical as a motorbike designed by italians.

It takes an hour to get to the spark plugs of my Ducati. The battery terminals are virtually inaccessible too, which for a bike with dodgy italian electrics is a real pain.

So what happens when the owner of this car leaves their lights on, drains the battery and the car has to be booked into a volvo dealer (the only people who can open the hood) to have the battery recharged?

HH
--
Re:just my opinion by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:03 · Score: 1, Informative

No, "hood" is American English for "bonnet". There's no such thing as "British English".
Re:just my opinion by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:15 · Score: 0

...drains the battery and the car has to be booked into a volvo dealer (the only people who can open the hood) to have the battery recharged?

I'm sure volvo isn't so stupid that they won't put remote battery terminals for jump-starting/charging in an easily accessible location. Then again, they are welding the hood shut...
Re:just my opinion by RESPAWN · 2004-03-04 02:16 · Score: 1

No worse than having to pull the engine on my Porsche 356 to replace the #3 spark-plug. (Using Weber carbs instead of the factory Solex or Zeniths, no room to get a tool in there to access it). ... Or the W-Body GM cars (Lumina, Monte Carlo, Regal, and my '95 Cutlass Supreme) where you have to unbolt the engine and jack it up in order to change the spark plugs on the firewall side of the engine.

The sad reality is that cars seem to keep getting harder and harder to work on. Manufacutures keep trying to package more and more stuff into an engine bay that keeps getting smaller and smaller. This inevitably makes it hard to get to some things, making it more likely that you'll just take your car in to have it serviced. (Becuase the plugs on my Oldsmobile were so hard to change, I just said fsk it and took it in.)

Heck, if you even look under the hood of most modern cars, many of them have plastic pieces covering most of the engine bay anyway. It's almost as if the manufacturer doesn't want you to do the work yourself.

--
If Murphy's Law can go wrong, it will.
Re:just my opinion by georgeha · 2004-03-04 02:18 · Score: 2, Funny

Nonsense, I have a Volvo 960, which drives me to the poorhouse very well, and I'm sure I can get a turn signal bulb for only $2.99 a two pack.

Of course, turn signal lenses run $100.
Re:just my opinion by tiled_rainbows · 2004-03-04 02:20 · Score: 1

I would have thought that, if tthey had any sense, they'd put a pair of terminals for jump-starts somewhere accessible, like with the fuel / windscreen-washer stuff.

In fact, I've often wondered why all cars don't have this feature. What's up with those giant crocodile clips? Why can't all cars just have a standard socket somewhere accessible that you can plug the jump leads into? And maybe an adaptor, as well, so you can recharge off the mains?

--

evil math within Nature's Cubic Creation!
Re:just my opinion by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:39 · Score: 0

No worse than having to pull the engine on my Porsche 356 to replace the #3 spark-plug. (Using Weber carbs instead of the factory Solex or Zeniths, no room to get a tool in there to access it).

Since you're not-so-subtly bragging about owning a Porsche, we can only assume that the 'tool' you are referring to is yourself.

Good day!
Re:just my opinion by digitalsushi · 2004-03-04 02:43 · Score: 1

So what happens when the owner of this car leaves their lights on, drains the battery and the car has to be booked into a volvo dealer (the only people who can open the hood) to have the battery recharged?

<person who would buy a car with hood welded shut>No, it uses gasoline, not a battery. Gah.</person>

--
slashdot: where everyone yells sarcastic metaphors to themselves to understand the issue
Re:just my opinion by armb · 2004-03-04 03:02 · Score: 1

There are cars where the battery isn't under the hood (my Audi, for example, it's under the rear seat). There are chargers that plug into the cigarette lighter socket (not sure I'd like to be restricted to one myself, but they exist). If this wasn't just a concept car, I hope they'd provide access to the battery one way or another.

--
rant
Re:just my opinion by geoffspear · 2004-03-04 03:06 · Score: 1

Yeah, that's just horrible because I need to change the spark plugs on my car at least twice a month.

--
Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
Re:just my opinion by Twylite · 2004-03-04 03:12 · Score: 2, Funny

Heck, that reminds of back in them good ol' earl-ee nine tees when I could get a soldering iron into the ol' PC if she needed a fixin' !

--
i-name =twylite [http://public.xdi.org/=twylite], see idcommons.net
Re:just my opinion by easter1916 · 2004-03-04 03:47 · Score: 1

Sure there is -- it's also known as "the Queen's English". English has many dialects, as well you know, so it makes sense to specify which one is being used, even if it is "the original".
Re:just my opinion by RESPAWN · 2004-03-04 04:22 · Score: 1

Yeah, that's just horrible because I need to change the spark plugs on my car at least twice a month.

Granted, you generally don't need to change spark plugs often. That's not the point. The point is that when the time comes to change the plugs it's such a grave inconvenience that instead of spending $15 on plugs and doing it myself, I spent $70 on plugs and labor. I don't mind doing my own maitenance when I can. In fact, I prefer to do it when I can simply becuase I trust myself more than the average mechanic.

But the spark plugs aren't the only thing hard to get at on my car. The battery is located underneath a support strut and the wiper fluid reservoir, both of which have to be removed just to get at the battery. Even seemingly easy things to get at such as the alternator can be a pain as we found that GM also clipped the fuel hardlines to the back of the alternator where you can't see, and the grounding rod (or whatever the proper term is) took 10 minutes of fiddling around before we were able to get it back in place on the new alternator because of where it's located.

The point is that the manufacturers just fit everything into such a small place that it becomes a real pain to do general maitenance.

--
If Murphy's Law can go wrong, it will.
Re:just my opinion by strike2867 · 2004-03-04 04:37 · Score: 1

Dont worry. Soon You will be able to install your new 2.99 signal bulbs for a small charge of 299.99 for labor, and a short overnight stay for your car.

--

Vote for new mod!!! Score:-2,Imbecile
Re:just my opinion by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 05:16 · Score: 0

In Sweden volvo charges 1400kr ($140) an hour to service your car !!!! 90% of volvos earnings in Sweden are from services........

Swedes in a nutshell.....
Re:just my opinion by dandelion_wine · 2004-03-04 17:50 · Score: 1

and if my granny had wheels she'd be a wagon

Screw That! by xianzombie · 2004-03-04 01:51 · Score: 4, Insightful

>The whole front of the car is moulded in one >piece which can be removed only by a Volvo >mechanic.

Great, so you can pay $40+ (USD) for an oilchange, along with god knows what a dealer charges for the rest of the routine maintence.

I mean, ok, so the cars geared for women, and we know they can't do their own maintence, but what if they have an ounce of common sense and realize theres no reason to pay dealer prices?

Re:Screw That! by hattig · 2004-03-04 01:57 · Score: 1

In the UK, Car Maintainence is now part of the driving test (apparently), and deals with things like oil changes, etc...

I mean, is it really that much of a problem to have a bonnet? What is the whole problem?!
Re:Screw That! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 01:59 · Score: 0

Great, so you can pay $40+ (USD) for an oilchange, along with god knows what a dealer charges for the rest of the routine maintence.
Only $40 for an oil change? I pay $70.. I must be getting screwed. Does it make much difference if I'm using synthetic oil? I know nothing about cars.
Re:Screw That! by JosKarith · 2004-03-04 02:00 · Score: 1

Forget oil change - you'd be paying 4o for a fuse change. I see a lot of very rich mechanics...

--
'Don't worry' said the trees when they saw the axe coming, 'The handle is one of us.'
Re:Screw That! by turgid · 2004-03-04 02:02 · Score: 1

I mean, ok, so the cars geared for women, and we know they can't do their own maintence, but what if they have an ounce of common sense and realize theres no reason to pay dealer prices?
You're not married, are you? Those types of women all have girlfriends :-(

--
Stick Men
Re:Screw That! by xianzombie · 2004-03-04 02:03 · Score: 1

Um, not sure.

Doing my own, I pay around $25ish for fully synthetic and a filter (I only need 4qts though).

Jiffy Lube wanted $35 for just normal dino oil. I'm really not sure what a dealer charges
Re:Screw That! by microbox · 2004-03-04 02:03 · Score: 1

we know they can't do their own maintence

I think we (men) should be careful with statements like this. I know lots of mechanically able women, and not a small number of mechanically spastic men. We all know this is just a stereotype, but throwing stereotypes around is bad form

--

Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
Re:Screw That! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:05 · Score: 0

you're fine. i change my own oil w/ mobile1, and just the oil alone is between 40 and 50 dollars. so add a filter and 15 bucks for time, and you get 70, seems pretty reasonable.
Re:Screw That! by theLastPossibleName · 2004-03-04 02:21 · Score: 1

I regularly change the oil on my VW Jetta. I buy 5 quarts of synthetic blend oil plus the filter which usually costs around $24. That plus the time it takes to do the change. $40 or $70 both sound like a rip off to me.
Re:Screw That! by xianzombie · 2004-03-04 02:23 · Score: 1

This software does not have the proper emoticon to express my true emotions of sarcasm.

sorry to any who took that a lil' too seriously.
Re:Screw That! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:24 · Score: 0

Unlesss you have a super high performance car that requires you to use synthetic oil (with certain cars ::cough cough corvette:: it voids your warrenty to put conventional in) there is very little advantage to using synthetic oil.

Yes, it lasts twice as long, but you pay more than twice as much for it.

But hey, I guess they figured there was a market for stupid people who buy premium gas, so they could probably sell premium oil as well.

Me, it costs me less than 10 dollars to change my own oil, including filter.
Re:Screw That! by notbob · 2004-03-04 03:10 · Score: 0

I had my 99 BMW m3 in the shop the other day getting the door handle adjusted, and asked how much for an oil change as I had thrown out their $55 coupon as I figured it wasn't much off the normal price.

"An oil change for that car is about $230"....

I was like hrmm no I'll pass, I'm thinking of opening a discount oil change shop special to BMWs. $100 oil changes, gauranteed in and out fast! I'm sure I can make a profit ;)
Re:Screw That! by nosilA · 2004-03-04 03:17 · Score: 1

I pay $22 to have the dealer change the oil in my Jetta... why would you pay $24 in materials and then have to do it yourself?

-Alison
Re:Screw That! by bluGill · 2004-03-04 03:19 · Score: 1

Last time I paid to have my oil changed it was $40, with synthetic (Mobil 1) oil. $20 with normal oil. Note that some cars (VW TDI) need special synthetic oil that is even more expensive (Mobil 1 is not good enough for that engine, read the specs) so depending on your engine you might or might not have paid too much.
Change it yourself one time and compare. Labor should be no more than $10, and you can guy oil and filters for only pennies more than they pay. See if the deal is worth it.
Re:Screw That! by Beowulf_Boy · 2004-03-04 03:37 · Score: 1

Because he's using synthetic blend. We'll both be laughing when our engines last 500k miles, and yours is smoking in a few years.
Re:Screw That! by theLastPossibleName · 2004-03-04 03:59 · Score: 1

The type of oil is one reason. Another is to prevent the dealer from overtightening the oil pan bolt with their air wrench. I once had a VW dealership strip the bolt and then try to charge me for an oil leak. The other is the same reason why people use linux. I like to understand more and see more of my car. I feel that I am a more responsible owner when I take the time to care for my own car. Besides, it takes me under an hour to do the change. And that's an hour I can dictate. VW's hours of Monday-Friday 8am-5pm aren't designed to be accessible to anyone with a 7-5 job.
Re:Screw That! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 05:13 · Score: 0

then they would buy a different car you moron. This story is meaningless. If people don't like this then they won't buy it and no more will be made.
Re:Screw That! by Tassach · 2004-03-04 05:40 · Score: 1

Tell me about it: my neighbor (& wife's best friend) is a total wrenchhead -- her day job is fixing armored vehicles (tanks and APCs). Whenever I'm feeling over my head with a mechanical problem, I go ask her.

--
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
Re:Screw That! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 19:55 · Score: 0

I don't know what idiot M'd this Troll, but I nailed him in M2.

By women, for women? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 01:51 · Score: 5, Insightful

Actually, the article just seems to be about the reinforcement of stereotypes that women don't want to get their hands dirty fixing the car. The concept car is supposed to be "feminine", and quotes some woman about how she never wants to go under the hood. Stereotypes flourish in Scandinavia!

Re:By women, for women? by claurent · 2004-03-04 02:01 · Score: 1

Just because a stereotypical woman doesn't want access under the hood for themself...doesn't mean they should make it hard to get the access. It would seem that they just don't care to have access, or not have access. But not caring if they can or can't isn't really much of a requirement...it just means, they don't care, so do it any way you want.

I don't think women inherently want to spend more money to service their vehicle just because they are women..that happens enough already.

A sealed closed hood only means they will have to pay more to have the whole front removed for access, instead of just opening the hood.

A LOCK for the hood might have been more practical.
Of course, the article wasn't especially clear on the requirements and WHY they wanted the hood sealed.
Re:By women, for women? by back_pages · 2004-03-04 02:05 · Score: 1, Funny

Stereotypes flourish in Scandinavia!
Irony thrives everywhere.
Re:By women, for women? by shatteredpottery · 2004-03-04 02:10 · Score: 1

No kidding. This is ridiculous. Colour-coordinated removable seat cushions? Split headrests so that women with ponytails can be seated more comfortably? Please, how absurd do they think...

Oh crap.

My wife's gonna want one of these yesterday...

--
A witty saying is worth nothing - Voltaire
Re:By women, for women? by arglesnaf · 2004-03-04 02:17 · Score: 1

Umm, Volvo cars is now Ford. The link to Volvo in the story is to the company that makes Volvo trucks. See http://www.volvocars.us/. Stereotypes flourish in Dearborn!
Re:By women, for women? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:02 · Score: 0

I'm from Everywhere, you insensitive clod!!!
Re:By women, for women? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 06:24 · Score: 0

Yeah, but over there they're sexy, blonde stereotypes... mmmmm!!!

What's so special? by Paleomacus · 2004-03-04 01:52 · Score: 1

It looks like every other concept car to me. They should have called it Yet Another Concept Car. YACC. Oh already taken...sorry, you can't make cars anymore!

Awful by ThePretender · 2004-03-04 01:52 · Score: 5, Insightful

Now I can't be the only one who finds the generalizations made in the article offensive! And I'm not a woman and by no means some earthy-crunchy sensitive 90's-type guy.

On top of that, the concept is stupid. There are things that people (yes, even women) can do themselves under the hood of their own car. What's next? Welding our computer cases shut? (or at least making better "void your warranty" stickers)

Re:Awful by ed__ · 2004-03-04 02:02 · Score: 1

same here. it sounded like an article from the 1950's. "look those kooky women! they sure are dumb about important stuff like cars, but where would we be without them? washing dishes that's where ! LOL"

next time the BBC's normal reporter is in the shop and they get a loaner, they should try to get one from the current century.
Re:Awful by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:05 · Score: 1, Insightful

I'm in the exact situation that you are my friend. I'm a male, not entirely sensitive (or at all really ;) but I've found both Slashdot and Linux.com notorious for these types of slanders.

Linux.com is by far the worst, and I can't bring myself to read it anymore. I certainly hope that the teenaged male Slashdot readers will grow up, get a damned life and cease to be so bloody sexist.
Re:Awful by houghi · 2004-03-04 02:10 · Score: 1

Now I can't be the only one who finds the generalizations made in the article offensive! And I'm not a woman and by no means some earthy-crunchy sensitive 90's-type guy.

Neither am I. Why is it that men are expected to be able to do something with the engine of a car. I admit, I also only change the water for the window. I am sure if I were to do something else myself, I would break the car.

What's next? Welding our computer cases shut?

Or even worse, make it impossible to read and change the code. :-)

--
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Re:Awful by m00nun1t · 2004-03-04 02:21 · Score: 1

Since you read the article, you'd know the car was designed by woman. So, maybe the generalizations happen to be true for a significant group of women - certainly for those who designed it.

--
Read reviews of shopping cart software
Re:Awful by Woy · 2004-03-04 02:22 · Score: 1

What's next? Welding our computer cases shut? (or at least making better "void your warranty" stickers)
Well, that actually happened to me 2 years ago. We needed to upgrade a video workstation, and i bought a PC to replace it at this shop: www.chipsite.pt . When it arrived, the first thing to do was to move the super-expensive video edition card from the old workstation to the new. When i turn the computer i see the stickers. They were specially designed stickers (with the warranty message) that pretty much destroyed themselves at the first sign of movement in the cover of the box. I was stunned, and they didn't mention it before, even thou i told them i had custom parts to install after i recieve the box. Needless to say, i made sure that I, and the ppl that trust me for computer advice, would never buy in that shop again.

--
"If God created us in his own image we have more than reciprocated." - Voltaire
Re:Awful by ThePretender · 2004-03-04 02:31 · Score: 1

or maybe making generalizations about a group that you are part of still doesn't necessarily mean they are right.
Re:Awful by Bobulusman · 2004-03-04 02:32 · Score: 1

It never hurts to be informed. I can't fix everything in my car, but I know enough to do an oil change, replace spark plugs, etc. Saves me a lot of time and money.

--
Cogito ergo sum in Slashdot.
Re:Awful by LordK2002 · 2004-03-04 03:08 · Score: 1

Since you read the article, you'd know the car was designed by woman.
Yeah, "designed by women", as in
"Hey darlin', how'd you like some replaceable seat mats to match your pretty dress?"
"Oooh yes, how thoughtful of you, Brad!"
Just because somebody is a member of a group (in this case, females) does not mean their suggestions or opinions are representative of the group as a whole. In fact, the very notion of "what women want" is overgeneral and absurd.
K

missing a step by millahtime · 2004-03-04 01:52 · Score: 3, Insightful

so, did the women who designed it think that something under the hood would never break or that the car is disposable? Were the women who designed this some high maintaince women whos daddys/husbands buy them everything?

If it breaks under the hood how do you fix it????????????

--
Evolution or ID?

Re:missing a step by bobthemuse · 2004-03-04 02:03 · Score: 1

RTFA. The front exterior of the car is a single piece which can be removed by approved Volvo dealers and mechanics.
Re:missing a step by armb · 2004-03-04 02:05 · Score: 1

> If it breaks under the hood how do you fix it?

You take it to the dealer, who _can_ remove the hood. Personally I think there's a clear market - if someone can't even read a linked article before asking a question that's answered there, how the hell do you expect them to be able to change their own oil?

--
rant
Re:missing a step by fruey · 2004-03-04 02:06 · Score: 1

It's not just about that.
Moving the washer fillup point to the rear of the car near the petrol filler cap is totally logical. Welding the bonnet shut is not. You can solve the problem described in the article - women not wanting to open a huge bonnet (hood) - by moving the washer filler place, heck even the expansion tank.
But... welding the hood shut sure sounds like a way to seal in warranty stuff, stop you changing your own oil, and so on. Especially if you need some kind of rig to get the front part off to get at the engine.
Mechanics will hate this kind of car. PITA to have to do complex stuff just to get at a connector for engine computer interface or something! You can't move all those everywhere, much more logical to have those accessible near the engine itself...

--
Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
Re:missing a step by millahtime · 2004-03-04 02:15 · Score: 1

What about me, the home mechanic. "approved Volvo delaers and mechanics". I can work on my own cars and know enough about car electronics to handle all that work too. They are pushing away from the home mechanic and that's where my beef is. I don't take anything to the dealer or mechanic.

--
Evolution or ID?
Re:missing a step by Roblimo · 2004-03-04 02:18 · Score: 1

If a car manufacturer makes a hood that takes a special tool to open, knockoffs of those tools will be available from aftermarket resellers in two weeks, and every independent shop will have one within a month, as will most home mechanics who own that make of car.

- Robin
Re:missing a step by bobthemuse · 2004-03-04 02:30 · Score: 1

Again, RTFA.

The is a concept car designed by a bunch of women. Volvo says outright that they won't be manufacturing it.

Even if they did, if you don't like the idea, don't buy it! Good god, do you people have nothing better to do than to whine about other people's ideas?

Preferences = oil change? by chabegger · 2004-03-04 01:52 · Score: 2, Insightful

There is no way I would buy a car with the hood welded shut. Even with non open source software, you can modify things a little bit - every program has preferences to change. For example, in Word I like the blue background with white text. In my car, I want to know I can change the oil, fill my windshield wiper fluid and change my coolant whenever I want to.

Re:Preferences = oil change? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 01:57 · Score: 0

RTFA. They moved all inlets next to the fuel inlet, so they are all conceiled under this one cap.
Re:Preferences = oil change? by AndroidCat · 2004-03-04 02:07 · Score: 1

The actual article doesn't say "welded shut", just that the front is one piece, and needs to be removed with tools. (Probably one of those Ikea hex keys. ;) In a real car (which this isn't), it couldn't be impossible for the average garage to change the oil, so do-it-yourself should still be possible, just not easy at the roadside(!!) (Warranty issues are another story.)
One important issue: There will now be a number of Swedish women pissed off at Volvo for treating them like idiots or children. That seems like an opportunity.

--
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.

Simple Solution by aliens · 2004-03-04 01:52 · Score: 5, Insightful

Don't buy the car, it doesn't sell you won't see others like it.

--
-- taking over the world, we are.

Re:Simple Solution by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:10 · Score: 0

He got modded Insightful? He didn't even read the article!! It says in the article that they will not make more than one of these because it's a concept car. So, no boycotting is necessary.

I swear the slashdot formula is this:
Dumb_Sensationalist_Headline + Article_With_Remote_Relevance = Boycott_Posts + Tin_Foil_Hats -- Baah!
Re:Simple Solution by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:12 · Score: 0

Heheh you are correct. But I was doing a preemtive strike on those who might say,

"This is the end of car tinkering as we know it"
Re:Simple Solution by TwistedGreen · 2004-03-04 02:39 · Score: 1

Don't worry; it's a concept car. It'll never see the light of day.

I don't know who thought it was a good idea to humour this 'car for women,' but it's just plain ridiculous.
Re:Simple Solution by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:12 · Score: 0

This is the end of car tinkering as we know it!!!!
Re:Simple Solution by starseeker · 2004-03-04 04:05 · Score: 1

Unless they all do it/get legislation passed requiring it for "national security purposes."

These people know to play the game.

--
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
Re:Simple Solution by mgblst · 2004-03-04 11:42 · Score: 1

No, that is not enough. We have to talk about it and educate people.

So what if I don't buy this car. If everyone else does, then my lack of purchse means nothing...

That car was built by and for chicks. by budhaboy · 2004-03-04 01:52 · Score: 1

and that says quite alot about the girlie-men who created and use Windows if you ask me.

concept car by mrpuffypants · 2004-03-04 01:52 · Score: 1

please keep in mind that this is a concept car and will never make it intto production. The ideas introduuced here are purely for show and might be brought into their actual product lines later on in this or other forms.

This is NOT a new car on the market with a hood welded shut.

Not a new idea by Stackster · 2004-03-04 01:53 · Score: 4, Interesting

The Audi A2, which actually is _in production_ (and has been for a couple of years) has a "locked" hood/bonnet too. There's just a small hatch where you can fill up washer fluid and cooling water .

--

There are 010 kinds of people. Those who understand octal, those who don't, and 06 other kinds of morons.

Re:Not a new idea by intertwingled · 2004-03-04 01:59 · Score: 1, Offtopic

I'd cut a hatch and add a latch and some hinges so I could access the engine compartment. I like doing my own minor maintenance and repairs. Of course this would probably void the warranty. Reminds me of my new ActionTec router modem. First thing I did when I got it was hook it up and telnet into it. There is a rich telnet interface to ActionTec R1524SU DSL router/modem. Then I noticed that the telnet interface was not documented in the pdf manual or on the ActionTec website. So I called the 1-800 tech support number, and got some guy in India who didn't know what to do (so much for outsourcing), so he escalated my call to 2nd tier tech support. I called THAT number, and got a techie in the United States who said "There is no documentation for the telnet interface, and if you telnet into the router/modem, you will void the warranty." Now that's about the STUPIDEST thing I've ever heard anybody say, and I told him so. Then I asked, "what if a cracker or packet kiddie telnets into my router... does that void the warranty?". He didn't have an answer for that, so I hung up on him.

--
-- SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER.
Re:Not a new idea by DocSnyder · 2004-03-04 02:08 · Score: 4, Informative

The Audi A2, which actually is _in production_ (and has been for a couple of years) has a "locked" hood/bonnet too.
The A2's hood is not really locked shut, it's only held differently compared to other cars. After unlocking two quick-out knobs, you can lift the hood (about 9 kg) off and access everything without the hood being in the way.
Re:Not a new idea by djmurdoch · 2004-03-04 02:14 · Score: 1

I'd cut a hatch and add a latch and some hinges so I could access the engine compartment.

Why not just buy the wrench the Volvo mechanic would have used?
Re:Not a new idea by checkyoulater · 2004-03-04 02:22 · Score: 4, Insightful

I'd cut a hatch and add a latch and some hinges so I could access the engine compartment. I like doing my own minor maintenance and repairs.

OK, I let your first comment go, but this is the second time you have made this outrageous claim. Are you saying that you could open the hood of a 2004 Audi and diagnose even a small problem? Even the mechanics at the dealership need to hook the engine up to the diagnostic computers these days. I could understand doing repairs on older cars, say circa 1995 and older, but give me a break. I am mechanically inclined as well, but I wouldn't even attempt to repair anything inside the engine of a 2004 car. Expect maybe the washer fluid reservoir, or replace a broken cap. Exactly the parts you could access in this new Volvo.

--
Is that a real poncho? I mean, is that a Mexican poncho or is that a Sears poncho?
Re:Not a new idea by wfberg · 2004-03-04 02:23 · Score: 1

The Audi A2, which actually is _in production_ (and has been for a couple of years) has a "locked" hood/bonnet too. There's just a small hatch where you can fill up washer fluid and cooling water .

That certainly explains why
these pictures were never made.

--
SCO employee? Check out the bounty
Re:Not a new idea by lonesome+phreak · 2004-03-04 03:17 · Score: 1

I can, but one of my best friends boyfriends is a Master Audi Tech, so I have an unfair advantage. Plus my company is almost done developing a low cost laptop-based diagnostic system, so I have two unfair advantages.

--
Maybe we DID take the blue pill. You wouldn't remember anyway.
Re:Not a new idea by bellings · 2004-03-04 03:22 · Score: 1

The guy in India told you the truth -- he didn't know how the telnet interface worked, and he told you. The guy in America told you a bull-shit lie -- he didn't know how the telnet interface worked, so he told you that using it would void your warranty.

Yeah, outsourcing sucks.

--
Slashdot is jumping the shark. I'm just driving the boat.
Re:Not a new idea by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:23 · Score: 0

I could at least add oil if it was low - or brake fluid or transmission fluid. These aren't exactly high-skill fixes. And if I'm stranded on the side of the road with a car leaking any of these fluids I'd sure as heck WANT to be able to add more - even if it's just to get me to the next mechanic to fix the REAL problem.

And, yes, I do typically carry emergency supplies of all of these in my car.

And, yes, I AM a woman.
Re:Not a new idea by infinite9 · 2004-03-04 03:25 · Score: 1

I am mechanically inclined as well, but I wouldn't even attempt to repair anything inside the engine of a 2004 car.

Their marketing worked. It's attitudes like this that perpetuate the silly designs of cars. I can't bleed my own brake lines in my *93* minivan because I need a $2000 abs computer to advance the ABS pump. There is absolutly no need for this. It's a lousy design. Engine management comptuers aren't that hard. It's a computer that reads sensors and uses that information to determine an air/fuel ratio. That's it.

--
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
Re:Not a new idea by bluGill · 2004-03-04 03:28 · Score: 1

I'll bet that the Audi still has spark plugs that need to be replaced every 100,000 miles. I'll bet it has radiator hoses, and various belts that need to be replaced once in a while. I'll bet it has a starter, alternator, and water pump, all of which need to be replaced (in my expiurence every 120,000 miles) once in a while. I'll bet there are various filters that need to be repalced. I'll bet replacing the PVC valve once in a while is a good thing. For that matter I'll be it has an O2 sensor that could stand a replacement once in a while.
Cars still opperate on the same laws of physics they always have.
For that matter you can get OBDII readers and see everything the dealer can see. (Knowing what to do with that is a different matter, but typically a net search will help)
Re:Not a new idea by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:29 · Score: 0

Yes, I could diagnose a small problem. It is a question of how familar you are with autos. Even the mechanics have a pretty good idea of what the problem is just by the description. The diagnostics are to confirm (i.e.- give you a sheet of paper that says "the computer sez so") and catch any other problems that aren't obvious.

What happens when the diagnostic computer goes FUBAR?

Mod parent -1 duplicity.
Re:Not a new idea by tazan · 2004-03-04 03:30 · Score: 1

Well, actually before I became a programmer I was a mechanic at a dealership. I have 16 ase certs and am much more competent to do the work on a new car than the HS dropouts that work at my local dealership. I'm sure I'm not the only one in that situation. As long as you can get a book with trouble shooting charts and the local autoparts store can read the codes it's not that difficult.
Re:Not a new idea by Unregistered · 2004-03-04 03:37 · Score: 1

Well, i sorta agree. I have a 99 crown vic. When something major dies, i have to take it in (gota get something i can work on for next car). But i still do some stuff under the hood. When a line starts leaking (it's a ford remember) i need to add fluid other than washer fluid. I like being able to get the oil changed anywhere and i add stp in the winter when it gets cold. The artice never addreesses the batery, though in some cars the betteries are in the trunk, so that might be why, but if the battery is under the hood, how can you get a jump or install and amp as Hifi buys probobly won't open the sealed hood?
Re:Not a new idea by Algan · 2004-03-04 03:38 · Score: 1

Both of my cars (2001 and 2003) have some of the fuses in a compartment under the hood. Besides, changing a battery it's not a biggy, even with modern cars. And finally, how would you jumpstart the car if you didn't have access to the battery?

--
If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
Re:Not a new idea by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:00 · Score: 0

I am mechanically inclined as well, but I wouldn't even attempt to repair anything inside the engine of a 2004 car.

It's not that hard to do work under the hood of a newer car. I mean, not everything is controlled by the computer. Just a couple of weeks ago, I gave my not-very-mechanically-inclined friend the general steps on replacing the power steering pump on his 2000 Audi A4 Quattro. He said it took him 5 hours to do it, but it didn't present any major problems. Slow and steady. Keep track of what you've undone.

I'd bet if you tried, even you could do it.
Re:Not a new idea by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:05 · Score: 0

And finally, how would you jumpstart the car if you didn't have access to the battery?

Through external connections. Like my BMW. The battery is in the trunk and you can jump-start it through these two terminals under the hood.
Re:Not a new idea by intertwingled · 2004-03-04 04:10 · Score: 0, Troll

You have hit the crux of the problem. The automobile companies are hogging the DRBs (Diagnostic Readout Boxes). I STILL cannot purchase a Chrysler DRB III for my 1994 Jeep Wrangler. I can purchase after-market DRB's, but they can't perform all of the diagnostic tests that a Chrysler DRB III can. I think that Automobile Manufacturers should not only be ordered to publish the meanings of all engine check codes, but that all engine computers should come with a standard RS-232 serial port and software that runs on Windows and Linux so that anyone can use a laptop computer to diagnose engine problems.

--
-- SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER.
Re:Not a new idea by ageoffri · 2004-03-04 04:12 · Score: 1

Not only would I get under the hood of a newer car, I have. With my 00 Z28 Camaro I have diagnostic software and the OBDII cable interface for my laptop which is called Autotap. Then to top it off I also own LS1Edit so I can modify the parameters of my Z28's PCM. These days a car is the ultimate mechanical/computer geek toy. You get to play with physical parts and mess with computers.
Personally I wouldn't attempt to take either my Z28 or 02 Kia to the dealership before I've at least looked at what needs done.

--
-- Slashdot, making the Left look conservative since 1997.
Re:Not a new idea by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:19 · Score: 0

"Even the mechanics at the dealership need to hook the engine up to the diagnostic computers these days."

Yes, and we all know that these computers are magical, and we should never be allowed to possess them ourselves. Or perhaps they're just another way to funnel our money to the dealerships.
Re:Not a new idea by intertwingled · 2004-03-04 04:28 · Score: 1

Actually there are some commands in the telnet interface that if not used properly, can permanently damage the ActionTec. I found this out by doing some googling and also talking to people on irc, and I've avoided fooling around with those commands... but why have a telnet interface at all? The answer from ActionTec is that the telnet interface is there for ActionTec engineers to diagnose a problem. Great. Open telnet port on my ActionTec. Really great. Luckily the ActionTec only supports one telnet connection at a time, so I wrote a tiny perl script that telnets into the router and continuously dumps some informational command outputs to a log file.

--
-- SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER.
Re:Not a new idea by apophenia · 2004-03-04 04:28 · Score: 1, Informative

AutoZone has multiple car computer diagnostic kits available.
Buy one and support their fight against SCO while maintaining your newer car.
Re:Not a new idea by intertwingled · 2004-03-04 04:40 · Score: 1

Lemme see, on my 1994 Chrysler hunk-of-junk Wrangler, I replaced two broken engine mounts, flushed the radiator a couple of times, replaced a leaking water pump, replaced the fan belt, replaced the spark plugs a couple of times, installed a hidden coil cutoff switch, change my own oil regularly, installed a two-filter oil extender, added a couple of piezoelectric buzzers to tell me when the turn signals are on, etc.etc.etc. And I have a couple of dozen other projects in the works for under the hood. I also plan on moving the Engine Control Computer from inside the engine compartment (where the heat from the engine and Arizona summers tend to cook the integrated circuit chips and other components) to the passenger compartment, where it's not so damned hot. I WISH I could buy a Chrysler DRB III so that I could do my own diagnostics, but I will have to settle for an after-market DRB, which doesn't do all the stuff that the Chrysler DRB does. I should also mention that the engine computer had to be replaced four times. The first three times, luckily, was under the emissions warranty. It took them two tries to figure out that a short in the wiring harness, which is a pretty complex wiring harness (about 20 wire plug on the ECC), was causing the computer to destroy itself. The fourth time, the ECC had to be replaced because it had cooked itself to death from the heat inside of the engine compartment.

--
-- SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER.
Re:Not a new idea by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 05:41 · Score: 0

Or you could run the ABS by turning on the electrics and putting a brick on the pedal.... saves a whole lot of pumping that we had to do pre-ABS
Re:Not a new idea by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 06:28 · Score: 0

I have a 2000 Mercury Marquis (mechanically identical to your car). I bought a ODB2 scan tool and between that and google it isn't much harder to work on than my 1972 Mercury. Don't be intimidated by the mechanics industry; it's still possible to be an amatuer mechanic and take care of your own vehicles.
Re:Not a new idea by praedor · 2004-03-04 09:04 · Score: 1

I don't care what car it is. I am fully capable of repairing/replacing ANY vacuum hose, fuel line, fuel filter, oil filter, fan belt, battery, etc. When I really feel like getting dirty, I can replace gaskets. I have also been known to replace dead halogen lamps (gasp!) on modern cars.

Would I try to do major service? No, because I don't have the time nor inclination to deal with that big a headache (I have personally replaced the engine in my chevy blazer - that's the biggest deal I was willing to deal with. Later, I replaced the intake manifold and carburator). I do demand the right to access all parts of MY car. It is MINE. If I want to look under the hood and do nothing, then that is what I damn well WILL do. If I want to replace hoses, filters, fix wires (done that too) then I WILL do that and will not allow some snot-nosed geeks at some criminal car company to prevent me. They lost control of all aspects of the vehicle when I purchased it. They will NOT force me to use their criminally overpriced service. They will not force me to put up with their LYING about what's wrong so they can do crap that doesn't need doing.

In short, when a car company makes it so that I cannot access my cars guts, then I wont buy their piece of crap.

--
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
Re:Not a new idea by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 09:55 · Score: 0

I've done a fair bit on my 1998 Ranger. Granted I didn't have to mess with the engine computer much, but the air conditioner has been a pain and I had to recharge it a couple of times. Also, the coolant-overflow hose worked it's way off the other week -- I had to put that back on and I put a clamp there to make sure it didn't happen again.

I expect that I'll probably need to replace the alternator and the serpentine belt before I'm done with the machine.

Granted that actually diagnosing something *inside* the engine is beyond me, but all of this little stuff is easy.

Just imagine if my $0.25 radiator hose clam had to be put in by a professional mechanic. It would have cost me $50. I'm not rich enough to pay someone else to handle trivial problems.

But, then again, I'm not rich enough to drive a Volvo either.
Re:Not a new idea by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 10:35 · Score: 0

uh, buy the tool that snapon makes? It does absolutely everything the manufacturers ones do

From the article... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 01:53 · Score: 0

Volvo will never actually take this car into production, of course.

There IS a God!

That's just silly by lovelee · 2004-03-04 01:53 · Score: 4, Insightful

Just because some woman's organization thinks the only reason some women want to look under the bonnet is to add washer fluid doesn't mean females want to trek their car into a mechanic to check their oil or change a fuse (my fuse box is under the bonnet!).

Women gripe about how mechanics always treat them badly and try to take advantage of them anyway - why enable that by making a car that you can't check out, even if you wanted to?

bad idea... by chazwurth · 2004-03-04 01:53 · Score: 1

Even if they want to reinforce the idea that women shouldn't do their own repairs or ever get under the hood (which I think is bullshit), this is a horrible idea. What happens if the car needs a jump? What happens when the woman's husband or brother or whatever could do something minor, but can't now because only a volvo shop has the tools to open the hood? Now you'd need to pay for service? Maybe that's the idea.

--
The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'. --Dan Kaminsky

Here's an idea by ImTwoSlick · 2004-03-04 01:54 · Score: 1

If we could just do the same to politician's mouths, we'd be all set.

Plastic covers are now common by freelunch · 2004-03-04 01:54 · Score: 1

In case it has been 10 or more years since you last looked, many engines are now completely obscured by plastic covers.

These covers hide the ugly bits and also help improve underhood airflow and thermodynamics. The auto companies extensively simulate underhood airflows.

The concept of a fully removable front section is a good one for ease of service (once you get it off). But not necessarily for collision repair costs.

Fine By Me ... by Jackdaw+Rookery · 2004-03-04 01:54 · Score: 2, Interesting

"The whole front of the car is moulded in one piece which can be removed only by a Volvo mechanic."

"... a car designed by women for women."

Fair enough. I know for sure my wife would never open a car bonnet. And anything that prevents me from having to do maintanance on her car is a plus.

No down side here from my point of view:

-Less hassle from Mrs
-Greater MPG due to better airflow
-Cleaner engine, moving parts would last longer

"Volvo will never actually take this car into production, of course."

They will if they get good press, look at the Audi TT.

Another common argument by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 01:54 · Score: 0

Another common argument made by people with common sense is, "do you demand a circuit diagram when you buy consumer electronics?"

No?

Well why do you want source code you'll never look at so much?

Re:Another common argument by fr0dicus · 2004-03-04 01:58 · Score: 0, Offtopic

We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!
- Vroomfondel
Re:Another common argument by Bendebecker · 2004-03-04 02:40 · Score: 1

How many people have the equipment to modify modern hardware? How many people have the software to modify modern source code? See the light?

--
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy

This is good how? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 01:54 · Score: 0

"So we shifted the filling station for washer fluid to the side of the car, next to where you fill up fuel, and we closed the bonnet for good."

I know the article says that Volvo has no plans to actually produce this car and will instead use the ideas proposed for future models but, if the above is actually implemented how long before someone pours gas into their wiper fluid vent or vice versa?

Yes, I know that the openings would be different size but given an opening and not having two brain cells to rub together, someone will figure a way to do it.

Shouldn't this be posted in... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 01:54 · Score: 0

the Apple section of /.? Seems right up their alley...The washer fluid has a beautiful new user interface, who cares if you can't check the oil or add antifreeze...

Welded shut in a car designed by and for women... by ravind · 2004-03-04 01:54 · Score: 5, Interesting

So the question to ask, when queried about the benefits of open source is: "Are you a man?" :D

In fact you could also put that on a t-shirt - "Real Men Use Linux"

Thats why i prefer german cars... by SenseiLeNoir · 2004-03-04 01:55 · Score: 1

I prefer german cars, as they are well made, and yet they make it relatively easily for the user to do most work him/herself, if he/she wishes (after the courtesy service is over)..

My Mercedes C-Class is a dream to work with, and certainly one of the most easiest cars to maintain...

--
Have a nice day!

Re:Thats why i prefer german cars... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:48 · Score: 0

You must be joking. Modern cars (from any part of the world) are incredibly complex, partucuarly electronicly. Also, compared to say Japanese cars just about every new model in European made cars uses a different computer system. (Japanese cars generally use a computer system over a couple of models)
The electronics are the achilies heel of many modern cars, which break when some little "fuse" blows and the whole modern marvel is stuffed.

My Ex-wife by bhima · 2004-03-04 01:55 · Score: 1

If my Ex-wife is any indication this is a good thing (TM)!If only for the safety of the engine.

Seriously though I doubt it would be any different than having to have torx head screwdrivers or something. Big deal! I don't work on my car much any more, outside of preventive maintenance. If I break down on the side of the road OAMTC takes care of it.

--
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

Bumper Stickers by Speare · 2004-03-04 01:55 · Score: 2, Funny

I did some very rudimentary artwork for two LWE2002 bumper stickers, one of which carries this slogan. "Would you buy a car with the hood welded shut?" (Tagline 'If your software doesn't include the source code, switch.') There were press articles mentioning these stickers.

This is just a Volvo concept car, with other ridiculously sexist language in the press releases, and features that will never find a production car. It sounded straight from a Heinlein book, with mixed up mysogyny and girl-worship all wrapped together.

However, if you ever DO see one of these cars, I'd love a photograph of it sporting my Linux sticker. I'll have to make one which says, "My OTHER car's hood isn't welded shut!"

--
[ .sig file not found ]

Re:Bumper Stickers by ArseneLupin · 2004-03-04 02:15 · Score: 1

However, if you ever DO see one of these cars, I'd love a photograph of it sporting my Linux sticker. I'll have to make one which says, "My OTHER car's hood isn't welded shut!"
Some windows wallpaper saying "My other OS doesn't suck"
Re:Bumper Stickers by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:16 · Score: 0

Programmer: You must get Linux. It comes with the source code!

Non-programmer: The what???

I nominate this... by Azureflare · 2004-03-04 01:55 · Score: 1

I nominate this for ... Worst. Idea. Ever.

The scenario that comes most easily to mind is that of the car breaking down on the highway. What are you going to do, without a cellphone, without being able to access the hood? What if the temp outside is subzero and you're 5 miles from the nearest inhabitant?

As the result of a company policy, this hypothetical person would be in a pretty horrible position (unless some nice motorist happened to stop by....Like that would happen =P)

Granted, the article does say many of the features on this "prototype" will never exist in actual production cars; but, I do not think the hood-less feature will ever be released to the market, unless it has a failsafe phone-home device when it breaks down.

Crits aside though, the car is pretty nice, and it is also good to see that we are able to make cars easier for the dumba^H^H^H^H^Hnormal people who drive cars and don't want to be concerned with how their car works.

Re:I nominate this... by karnal · 2004-03-04 02:38 · Score: 1

Agreed that it's a bad idea, but as far as being stranded goes, it really doesn't matter much if the hood won't open.

I've been "stranded" four times so far. 1 flat tire (no need to get under the hood), a loss of a freeze plug, a broken radiator return hose, and a dead fuel pump.

Actually, the fuel pump thing has happened to me twice (2 different cars.) From my experience, if the engine dies and it's not a carbureted (sp?) engine, then there's nothing you can really do in a crunch situation like this but wait for help.

Of course, like everyone else, I'll open the hood an try to see what is wrong, but in each of the situations I've been in, there's nothing I could do at the time. Staring under the hood really didn't help much, and the gauges in the "low rad fluid" section pretty much told me I was out of radiator fluid.

--
Karnal
Re:I nominate this... by BlackHawk · 2004-03-04 02:46 · Score: 3, Insightful
- The scenario that comes most easily to mind is that of the car breaking down on the highway. What are you going to do, without a cellphone, without being able to access the hood?
What are you going to do anyway? The overwhelming majority of people I know do not carry a full set of tools in their car, and even if they do, they carry little to no spare parts. So you break down. You can perform Manly Car Manuever #1: open the hood and stare at the engine. Even if you can diagnose the problem, what are you going to do without replacement parts?
- What if the temp outside is subzero and you're 5 miles from the nearest inhabitant?
And the ability to open the hood here means you can not only perform MCM #1 (detailed above), but you can do #'s 2 and 3: Freeze your ass off while doing it, and cuss at it.
- Crits aside though, the car is pretty nice, and it is also good to see that we are able to make cars easier for the dumba^H^H^H^H^Hnormal people who drive cars and don't want to be concerned with how their car works.
Oh, you're one of those zealots. Now I understand the basis for your objection. Religious issues...
There's nothing that says a person can't know how the car works, and still not want to... or be able to, even!... perform their own maintenance on that car. The concepts here are, frankly, brilliant in that they take into account the existing desires of the target market. A lot has been written here about "reinforcing stereotypes", but the fact remains that most people (men and women) do not perform their own maintenance. Ergo, make the car so they don't have to.
A better article on this project, which is called "Your Concept Car" or YCC, can be found at http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article= 6907 and explains some of the features in more detail, including the big one: the first maintenance stop is at 35,000 miles.
--
Believe nothing, not even if I say it, if it violates your sense of reason -- Buddha

Ditch car if battery goes dead by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 01:56 · Score: 1, Funny

"If the battery is dead (as in no longer usable), why would you want to keep it? "

I agree with you totally. Once the battery dies, it is time to get rid of the car. Anything is better than going to Sears and getting a new "Die Hard". Those Sears guys are so icky.

breakdown service?? by ponxx · 2004-03-04 01:56 · Score: 4, Insightful

I'm not particularly convinced by this car... what happens if it breaks down on the motorway? Do you have to call the Volvo break down service? How about a dead battery? Or just flat one when you need a jump-start? What if you want to get an oil-change at a garage round the corner? It strikes me as the kind of thing a car maker would do to increase their slice of the servicing market, much like some up-market cars that have rare or very odd parts so that only "authorised garages" are likely to be able to do anything beyond chancingin the oil...

Most of the other design features also sound more like bunch of men were having a laugh as to what a woman wants in a car... like being able to colour-coordinate with your clothes... Please!!!

I guess doing this kind of design study is a good way of getting publicity though, even made it onto slashdot...

Robin

Re:breakdown service?? by tarogue · 2004-03-04 02:31 · Score: 1

How about a dead battery? Or just flat one when you need a jump-start?

Well, you can now buy "jumper cables" that use the cigar-lighter/accessory-power-point to transfer power. No more messy batteries or multiple clamps.

yay

--
Life sucks, but death doesn't put out at all. -- Thomas J. Kopp
Re:breakdown service?? by Warpedcow · 2004-03-04 02:37 · Score: 1

I'm not particularly convinced by this car... what happens if it breaks down on the motorway? Do you have to call the Volvo break down service? How about a dead battery? Or just flat one when you need a jump-start? What if you want to get an oil-change at a garage round the corner?

I can't answer all your questions but, Volvos (at least 2001 and newer) typically have the battery in the back of the car (trunk, or under the floor, if it's a wagon). They do this to get a bit closer to 50/50 weight distribution which means better handling etc... also, I'm sure, just like independent mechanics get the fancy computers to read the codes off a car's computer, they can also get the tool(s) needed to open this hood. I'm sure the good folks at Volvo have thought of all of these things.

No I dont work for volvo, I'm just a happy volvo owner!

-Dave

--
moo
Re:breakdown service?? by trash+eighty · 2004-03-04 03:42 · Score: 1

Most of the other design features also sound more like bunch of men were having a laugh as to what a woman wants in a car... like being able to colour-coordinate with your clothes

my wife likes the fact the seats and interior of my car are black, it goes with anything!
Re:breakdown service?? by Viol8 · 2004-03-04 04:31 · Score: 1

And watch as the cables to your lighter melt under the hundreds of amps current the starter
motor draws. Those things are ok for trickle charging
but useless for jump starting.

Good luck! by ByteSlicer · 2004-03-04 01:56 · Score: 2, Interesting

What if your battery dies in winter, and you have to jumpstart it?

Wow, insulting maybe? by The+Wing+Lover · 2004-03-04 01:56 · Score: 2, Insightful

"Women are soooo bad with cars that they can't even be trusted with a hood that can open!"

Come on! Just because a lot of women don't do their own maintenance, does that mean that the hood should be locked shut? I mean, women who *don't* know how to do their own spark plug changes or oil changes would still be smart enough to just not open the hood, wouldn't they?

'Sides, the car-repair show on the local radio program is hosted by a woman who is a genius when it comes to mechanics -- I wonder what she'd have to say about it.

--

- In Capitalist America, law violates YOU!

Business Venture! by beware1000 · 2004-03-04 01:56 · Score: 4, Funny

anyone wanna join in on a business that produces 'warranty void if seal broken' stickers? There seems to be a rapidly growing market for it...

Next up... by P1P3Z · 2004-03-04 01:56 · Score: 1, Funny

Computers with cases that can only be opened by Microsoft.

What is freedom? by SlashDread · 2004-03-04 01:56 · Score: 1

- The ability to have a choice over the matter.

"id like my volvo with a open hood tyvm"

"/Dread"

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by WIAKywbfatw · 2004-03-04 01:56 · Score: 5, Funny

What if there is an engine fire?

Then you need a fire engine.

--

"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg

The Volvo's doors are gull wing?! by Libertarian_Geek · 2004-03-04 01:56 · Score: 1

I guess they don't expect future drivers to have to use parking lots either. Didn't they learn from Delorean?

--

www.facebook.com/DareDefendOurRights

www.fairtax.org

Re:The Volvo's doors are gull wing?! by iainl · 2004-03-04 02:36 · Score: 1

I'm sure there is a very sexist parking/women drivers gag in there somewhere, but I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader...

--
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
Re:The Volvo's doors are gull wing?! by Libertarian_Geek · 2004-03-05 01:54 · Score: 1

You automatically assume that, I'm being sexist. Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not.
Let me explain.
Gull Wing doors, (as on the Delorean) swing out and up. While swinging up isn't a problem, in a parking place, swinging out is. Delorean owners found that in order to exit their car when they parked it, they either had to choose a parking place with no cars on either side, or put it in neutral, get out, then roll it into a parking place. My comment was just to note that Volvo apparently hadn't learned from Delorean's mistake before choosing the door design.
I'm sure that there are other posters who could benefit from your sharp eye, keen intellect and witty sense of rightousness, but I'm not the droid your looking for. So run along now and attack someone for saying "him" instead of "him/her". Better yet, go attack French and Spanish speakers for giving basic objects gender, or Electrical Engineers/Designers for genderizing phono plugs and sub-d connectors.

--

www.facebook.com/DareDefendOurRights

www.fairtax.org
Re:The Volvo's doors are gull wing?! by iainl · 2004-03-05 02:56 · Score: 1

Oops.

I didn't mean that _you_ were sexist, only that I was half tempted to post an admittedly sexist, obvious gag about designing a car that needs you to park with tons of space on either side, and claiming its 'for women'. I know that gullwing doors are a nightmare; a relative once tried out a car with them, and still recoils in horror at being forced to crawl in the bottom when a big 4x4 parked right next to him.

Here, try the stick's other end, its much more comfortable to grab.

--
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
Re:The Volvo's doors are gull wing?! by ryanwright · 2004-03-05 07:23 · Score: 1

Delorean owners found that in order to exit their car when they parked it, they either had to choose a parking place with no cars on either side, or put it in neutral, get out, then roll it into a parking place.

Did you just make this up? I have to ask, because it's 110% pure bullshit. The gull wing doors on the DeLorean are hinged just off center of the roof. What this means is part of your roof opens along with the door. End result? The doors on the DeLorean swing out only half as far as a normal car door. Which means you can park them in TIGHTER spaces than a normal car and still fully open your door.

Next time, you might try some research before posting such silliness.

--
-Ryan, with the unoriginal sig
Re:The Volvo's doors are gull wing?! by Libertarian_Geek · 2004-03-06 15:59 · Score: 1

What, I can't do my research on VH1's I Love the 80s? Ok, well, at least tell my I'm right about them traveling through time when the hit 88 Mph. If not, then I guess I'll have to go to the local Delorean dealer, can you send me the address?
All joking aside, I assume you have a Delorean, or know someone that does. I'm interested still in the door geometry. (Not sarcasm, it's a speech impediment). Is the widest opening of the door still at the side opposing the hinge (the bottom)? Is there any issue at all with parking and thus opening the door? I would think that normal or suicide doors would be a better fit since the maximum opening doesn't require crawling to get in. You see with a normal door, I may only have a few inches, but it's still very possible to squeeze out. With a gull wing, it seems like it would be all or nothing. I'm asking you, so consider this research for now. Next time, I'll buy whatever I'm posting about off ebay before I post.

--

www.facebook.com/DareDefendOurRights

www.fairtax.org
Re:The Volvo's doors are gull wing?! by ryanwright · 2004-03-11 05:12 · Score: 1

Thank you for your response. :) I apologize for sounding like a dick in my first response to you.

You're right about being able to squeeze out through a normal door that is partially opened and having difficulty doing this on a DeLorean. It would be very difficult to get out of a DeLorean without opening the door fully. However, it's simply not an issue, and I'll tell you why:

A normal car door opens 30-40". The DeLorean's door only swings out 14". If you look at a picture of a DeLorean with the doors opened, you'll see that they aren't hinged above the door, but rather closer to the center of the roof. So when you open them, they mostly swing up, not out.

So, when you park your car into a tight space and you can only open your door just barely far enough to squeeze out, I can park a DeLorean into that same space and open the door completely with no problems. If you were to park a DeLorean so close to another vehicle that you couldn't get the door opened, you wouldn't have room to open a normal door far enough to even think about squeezing out.

Hope that clarifies things. And no, I don't own a DeLorean right now, but I will later this year. I've been a fan of the car since the eighties and have been seriously shopping for one over the past couple of months. I've got the cash, just need to finish another project to make room in my garage.

--
-Ryan, with the unoriginal sig
Re:The Volvo's doors are gull wing?! by Libertarian_Geek · 2004-03-14 14:53 · Score: 1

Cool, thanks, it does, and good luck on your "holy grail" of geek toys. I would be tempted to make a mock-time machine out of it myself.

--

www.facebook.com/DareDefendOurRights

www.fairtax.org
Re:The Volvo's doors are gull wing?! by ryanwright · 2004-03-15 04:25 · Score: 1

I would be tempted to make a mock-time machine out of it myself.

Many people do! A lot of DeLorean owners consider it sacrilegious, but there are some really great copies of the BTTF car driving around, complete with the ability to vent smoke out the black ports on the back. I think they're neat; I won't be doing it to mine, but I admire the guys who have the time and dedication to do it.

--
-Ryan, with the unoriginal sig

Perfect for my mom! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 01:57 · Score: 0

...if it would keep her from adding windshied washer fluid where the engine oil goes.

Again.

**grrr***

Rioting, Ravaging and iRResposibility! by Otter · 2004-03-04 01:57 · Score: 4, Funny

Only this time, it is common sense spelt with an F for Feminine rather than Farmer.

Geez, I was looking for Kent Brockman's byline at the top of that.

--
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...

Car welded shut is illegal in this country by EvilTwinSkippy · 2004-03-04 01:57 · Score: 4, Interesting

IBM lost several anti-trust cases based on exclusive service agreements with customers, and invalidating warrenties for user-installed parts. (The big three also tried these shenanigans back in the day, AND LOST.)

I don't know what the legal precidents are in Europe, but in the US Volvo would be laughed out of court if someone sued.

--
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming

Overly optimistic... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 01:57 · Score: 0

but probably not far off.
I don't believe this is a good idea for autos based on IC engines, though.
But when hydrogen cars become a reality (5-20 years depending on the source), do you really want Joe Six-pack mucking around in there trying to decide why the car won't go anymore? And with the GM "skateboard" concept, there won't be a hood to look under (except for luggage). All power will be coming from fuel cells and the motive components will be all-electric motors in each wheel hub. With this configuration, there isn't much you can do in the way of tinkering without having your own machine shop.

Only a Volvo mechanic? *snicker* by curtisk · 2004-03-04 01:57 · Score: 3, Interesting

What are they intending to do, design a custom bolt system and tool that ONLY Volvo can get their hands on? I believe GM has tried that in the past "..only use GM tool #xxxxx to remove"

Please.....if someone wants that hood(bonnet) off , its coming off.....Volvo certified or not

It's amazing what improv tools mechanics can come up with

--

Sehr geehrter Toilettenbenutzer!

Re:Only a Volvo mechanic? *snicker* by rzei · 2004-03-04 02:03 · Score: 1

Yes but also the warranty will then be void! That's what this is all about.

Better not to buy the frigging volvo at all I guess..
Re:Only a Volvo mechanic? *snicker* by base3 · 2004-03-04 02:32 · Score: 2, Informative

Not in the United States. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act prohibits voiding a warranty on those grounds.

--
One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.

silly question by musikit · 2004-03-04 01:57 · Score: 1

umm how are they gonna get out of the car??? look at the picture. the doors swing up? so do i shut off the car and roll it into the parking spot? or was this designed to only be parallel parkable?

Re:silly question by EvilTwinSkippy · 2004-03-04 02:11 · Score: 1

Actually, gull wing doors require less clearence to open. At their widest point they are less than a standard door open halfway. And even then, most of the travel is up and over the top of the car next to you. (And if you happen to be next to an SUV, the running boards along the side give you more than enough room.)

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"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming

Audi A2 by dontod · 2004-03-04 01:58 · Score: 5, Informative

The Audi A2 is halfway towards this concept. It doesn't have a bonnet (hood) as such, just a small flap to check oil and water levels.

Don.

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Slashdot - The Home of the Tortured Analogy

Re:Audi A2 by locknloll · 2004-03-04 02:25 · Score: 1

I don't know if they've already stopped building the car, but Audi will discontinue the A2, thus abandoning this concept again. Guess it was too expensive for both building the car (based on the Audi Space Frame, it's almost completely aluminium, which is still pretty expensive to use in mass car production) and servicing it (if you have to take it to the garage, the technicians have to disassemble much more than in other cars, spending more time on it). So in the end, the customer is screwed several times because the car is so damn expensive.

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-- Power corrupts, but PowerPoint corrupts absolutely.
Re:Audi A2 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:25 · Score: 1, Informative

Not exactly the same if you ask me. It takes all but a minute to remove the bonnet of an Audi A2. Simply flip open the grill and then loosen the two thumb screws that hold the bonnet in place. Done.
Re:Audi A2 by Zocalo · 2004-03-04 02:29 · Score: 1

And with current trends in engine management systems, what more do you really need on a standard "family" car? Sure, some engines still let you fiddle around tuning the thing yourself, but most require that much equipment it's pretty much a garage job for anything beyond fluids.
There are limits to this ultra tight, garage service only design ideal though - I think you have to be fully qualified gynacologist to change the damn headlights on my BMW for example. I have small hands and only managed to get the damn thing in after about half an hour and few CCs of blood from a badly grazed back of hand. Next time the garage will be doing it, which is probably the point of course - lots of extra visits to official dealers who get to charge $$$ for the "labour" involved in changing a bulb.

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Re:Audi A2 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:48 · Score: 1, Funny

if you have to take it to the garage, the technicians have to disassemble much more than in other cars, spending more time on it

Since it is an Audi, you WILL be taking it to the garage. Very often.
Re:Audi A2 by Mr.+Piddle · 2004-03-04 02:55 · Score: 3, Insightful

You know, there is a real advantage to a sealed hood/bonnet: stiffness. I would bet that the modern hood is a real PITA to car structural designers who look at that big unstressed hood and weep.

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Re:Audi A2 by zero_offset · 2004-03-04 03:18 · Score: 2, Interesting

what more do you really need on a standard "family" car?

Plugs, oil filter, air filter, battery, PCV valve, fuel filter, plug wires. And if the hood is sealed, you're not going to have access to a wide range of fairly important fluids, either -- oil, brake fluid, auto trans fluid, coolant.

I believe this is really just a ploy to promote the concept of "throw-away cars". You can get away with not touching those things for three years in most cases, but only if you don't plan to keep the car for much more than those three years... and the next buyer, who'd better be the type who performs regular maintenance -- he is screwed.

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Re:Audi A2 by foobsr · 2004-03-04 03:24 · Score: 1

... but Audi will discontinue the A2, thus abandoning this concept again.

Well, who likes to go for a cruise in a super-sized cockroach at premium price ?

CC.

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TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
Re:Audi A2 by eofpi · 2004-03-04 03:44 · Score: 2, Informative

There's already lots of suitable bracing under the hood because of the sheer number of components that have to be supported there.

One problem with a sealed hood/bonnet is that it'd probably wreak havoc on frontal crumple zones. Hoods of modern cars are designed to crumple in a specific sequence to absorb energy.

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Re:Audi A2 by gratefully+dead · 2004-03-04 03:50 · Score: 1

I had to work on my girlfriend's Audi A4 once. I accidentally drove up too steep of a slope and scraped the front of it on the ground. After a couple of days, the power steering suddenly went out, and I realized I had punctured the power steering fluid cooler. I thought no problem to fix, right? $100 for a small U-shaped aluminum tube, and a couple new rubber hose clamps.

However, unlike the american cars that I am used to, I found that the Audi hose clamps don't have a screw to loosen/tighten them. Instead they require a special tool to put them on, and you have to cut them off! It took me 1.5 hrs to cut two clamps off, and I ruined my shop cutters. I'd love to talk to the engineer who decided to use those stupid clamps over normal ones.

I am appalled at the idea of manufacturers intentionally (whatever the reason) making cars hard to work on.
Re:Audi A2 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:05 · Score: 0

Spoken like a man that's never really worked on a newer car in his life. Honestly, it's a $200 part for the adapter to read the OBD info (that new fangled "engine management system" that you claim is so hard) off the car. Honestly, OBD makes it easier to work on a car, more than it makes it harder. Instead of actually having to know your car inside and out, you just read the computer and generally it tells you what is wrong. So you go straight to the problem and replace that part. Instead of going "well this is my problem, and this, this and this could cause it so lets replace them one by one until it works.

As far as the headlights on your BMW go, that's what happens with cars. They're not wide open spaces and stuff has to fit places. Sometimes that makes it more cramped to do one thing than another, but that's what you put up with when you don't want to pay your mechanic $75 an hour to pull out a light bulb and stick another one in.
Re:Audi A2 by Dun+Malg · 2004-03-04 04:06 · Score: 2, Informative

You know, there is a real advantage to a sealed hood/bonnet: stiffness. I would bet that the modern hood is a real PITA to car structural designers who look at that big unstressed hood and weep.
Actually, unlike airplanes, cars aren't built to rely on a "stressed skin" for structural support. Cars nowadays are built on a "unibody" design and all the cosmetic parts-- fenders, doors, hood, trunk lid-- are hung on the outside. The supporting structure needs to be near where the weight sits-- at the wheels. Really the only places the structure is exposed is the parts holding up the roof and framing the doors, and then only out of obvious necessity.

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If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
Re:Audi A2 by superflippy · 2004-03-04 04:56 · Score: 1

So where do you put the jumper cables when the battery's dead?

We had this problem recently with a coworker's new VW. The engine was awfully nice and shiny under the hood, all modular and futuristing-looking without the visible bolts, hoses, etc. you'd see in older engines. Unfortunately, we couldn't find anyplace to attach the jumper cables so she had to get her car towed to the garage.

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Your fantasies contain the seeds of important concepts.
Re:Audi A2 by Spirilis · 2004-03-04 06:49 · Score: 1

Some people put Front Strut Tower Bars under the hood to increase the rigidity of the suspension between the two strut towers. These usually aren't necessary in the rear due to the solid construction of the trunk, which you cannot have in the engine bay since you need space for the engine/transmission/etc.

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the real at&t mix
Re:Audi A2 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 07:15 · Score: 0

If it's anything like an Audi A4, the battery is between the firewalls, right in front of the windshield. It's covered by a piece of plastic that has "+" and "-" stamped into it.
Re:Audi A2 by Buran · 2004-03-04 07:28 · Score: 1

The battery box cover is designed to pop open so you can get at the battery terminals. (I drive a 2000 Golf, so I know.) It's right behind the car's left headlight. Lift up that cover and the battery, terminals, and power leads are nicely protected under it. It may be in a slightly different place on different models, but the Golf, Jetta, and New Beetle are all based on the same platform, so that's where to look for those, at least. In the Passat, it is probably in the same place, but I'm not sure.

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i am a soviet space shuttle
Re:Audi A2 by DunbarTheInept · 2004-03-04 08:14 · Score: 1

1. In a car you don't *want* too much stiffness in the frame. They are designed to crumple so when you run into something you are more likely to ruin the car instead of your body. (The car crumples to soften the impulse of the hit.)
2. The hood is irrelevant to the strength of the car anyway, since the strength doesn't come from the body but from the skeletal frame the body is attached to.

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Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Re:Audi A2 by superflippy · 2004-03-04 09:09 · Score: 1

Aha! Very good to know, even if it's after the fact. I end up helping a lot of people jump-start their cars because I carry a set of cables in my trunk. I also keep my car's user manual in the car, so that if some weird question needs to be answered, like what's the correct pressure for the front left tire, I can look it up. If my co-worker had had her car's manual with her, we might've found out about the battery cover.

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Your fantasies contain the seeds of important concepts.
Re:Audi A2 by Buran · 2004-03-04 09:39 · Score: 1

Some cars also have the tire pressure requirements on a sticker inside the fuel filler door.

The manual probably wasn't in the car because VW manuals are so darn thick they're hard to fit in the glovebox.

The battery cover is actually a good thing because it keeps the terminals from getting dirty or corroded, which is a Bad Thing (tm). But there should be a battery image on the cover or something to make it clearer where it is, and clearer markings for which terminal is which - my battery ran down once when I left the lights on a little too long while working on something on the car, and almost hooked up the jumper cables backwards. Oops! The battery the car came with has hard-to-see polarity markings.

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i am a soviet space shuttle
Re:Audi A2 by Col+Bat+Guano · 2004-03-04 10:17 · Score: 1

If the bonnet of the car was sealed, you could design it so that it deformed in a more predictable manner.
The current situation has 2 hinge points at the back, and one locking mechanism at the front. I'ld be inclined to think that that'ld be harder to design as a safe crumple zone.
I believe that Mercs use the roof to help send some of the stress of an accident to the back of the car. A lesson in what can be achieved by careful design?
Re:Audi A2 by kcbrown · 2004-03-04 12:47 · Score: 1

Actually, unlike airplanes, cars aren't built to rely on a "stressed skin" for structural support. Cars nowadays are built on a "unibody" design and all the cosmetic parts-- fenders, doors, hood, trunk lid-- are hung on the outside.

Uh, no.
Unibody is a "stressed skin" manufacturing technique. The name sort of implies that, actually: "one body". The technique used to build cars prior to the unibody concept involved building a frame that would take all the load and attaching all the panels onto the frame. It made for a heavier car, but the car was sturdier as well.
The newer Ford Mustang (1980s and later) is a good example of an automobile made using unibody techniques. It has two "subframes", front and rear, that provide structure that the body panels themselves cannot, and the only thing connecting the two are the body panels between. The body panels (at least for mid 80's to early 90's models) weren't the best at this duty, and the end result was a significant amount of torsional movement of one subframe relative to the other over uneven surfaces: you could lift one corner of the car and the other three points would remain on the ground as the body twisted. This disconnect between the front and rear would eventually cause some of the body skin to wrinkle a bit (mainly in the area surrounding the hatchback attach points). Performance enthusiasts like myself routinely added subframe connectors to these cars, which would structurally connect the front and rear subframes together, making them a single frame that is much stronger than the original structure. I can lift the corner of my car and the body will stay rigid, thus causing one of the other corners to lift as well.
Most unibody cars aren't quite that bad in the structural strength department, but make no mistake: the body panels are structural on a unibody car.

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Re:Audi A2 by drinkypoo · 2004-03-15 06:26 · Score: 1

Well, you're close.
There are basically three types of chassis used for building cars; Monocoque, unibody, and full-frame. There's also stub-frame cars which have a unibody rear and a full-frame front.
the Opel Aero GT is a full-monocoque car in which even the fenders are load bearing. My Nissan 240SX (and before it my 280ZX and my 300ZX), the Mustang throughout its life, the Camaro likewise, and many others are unibody. They have a welded sheet metal body without any distinct frame rails. Frame rails are integrated into the body as rolled sheet metal. The outer fenders are not structural, they're there for aerodynamics and to attach lights to, and to cover the wheels, but there's an inner body which in the front is ugly but load-bearing, and in the back which is made up of the quarter panels (the fender equivalents in the back) which are usually brazed or welded to the roof when present. (They used to be attached with lead.) Full frame cars have a ladder-shaped chassis, trucks, most older full size cars and so on are like this, the body can be completely removed from the running gear, which if you stuck a seat and some pedals on it, could be driven around without the body. Stub-frame has frame rails in front and unibody in back. The subframe connectors you were adding connected frame rails integrated into the car, it's not strictly a subframe connector unless it's a stub frame car, but that's not really important.
Anyway the difference between a unibody and a monocoque is that if you take the hood, fenders, hatch, and bumper covers off of a unibody car, it won't affect its stiffness, just its aerodynamics. Unibody cars do utilize monocoque design methodologies however, especially in the floor pan and tunnel area, which are curved in order to translate force from one plane to another, and spread it throughout the vehicle. But just to say that unibody is "stressed skin" is only half true - well, maybe two thirds. As in, two thirds of the car...
Incidentally my car has a "rear sub frame" which the suspension arms bolt to, but it's a 5-link. The only point in the suspension not attached to the subframe or a suspension arm is the top of the shock.

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"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Audi A2 by drinkypoo · 2004-03-15 06:30 · Score: 1

You want as much stiffness in the frame as you can get until the car takes an impact. The good news is that in an impact, when the metal creases it does get much stronger along the line of impact, but it stops bearing load in other directions, and the car tends to get floppy again. At least, that's what a "crumple zone" is all about. If the hood becomes a load-bearing member then they can take some metal off the bottom of the car, reducing front weight. As most front-engined cars are front-heavy, you want to reduce the front weight in AWD or RWD cars. (Some (most?) FWD cars should have some more weight in front than in the rear, so they can accelerate without slipping excessively.)

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by easter1916 · 2004-03-04 01:58 · Score: 2, Interesting

If someone is setting off EMP pulses (most likely a war situation), you will have bigger things to worry about than starting your car.

.yawn. by aixou · 2004-03-04 01:58 · Score: 3, Insightful

The analogy is flawed. Not having access to the source code of a program does not mean that you can not troubleshoot or perform basic maintenance on it.

A car with a welded hood would be like having a harddrive that couldn't be defragged, it would be like not being able to use anti-virus software.

Source code isn't everything. I perform basic maintenance on closed source programs everyday. It could be argued that a closed source easy-troubleshootable program is actually easy to fix than an opensource program whose developers don't give a crap about trying to help people troubleshoot.

Re:.yawn. by microbox · 2004-03-04 02:09 · Score: 3, Insightful

Word just quit on me... some sort of internal error, okay, how to I troubleshoot it =)

Source code isn't everything

Why yes... there's configuration files, so if your programme crashes in 640x480 resolution then...

I perform basic maintenance on closed source programs everyday

What exactly to you mean my maintenance, and if it's so easy why do you do it every day?

A car with a welded hood would be like having a harddrive that couldn't be defragged

Defragging a HD is one operation. Having the hood open lets you change many things. Do you see the distinction?

The analogy is flawed

Smiles politely. Oh all right, I fell down laughing =) =) =) =)

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Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
Re:.yawn. by ggvaidya · 2004-03-04 02:41 · Score: 1

A car with a welded hood would be like having a harddrive that couldn't be defragged, it would be like not being able to use anti-virus software.

Funny ... on my Linux partition, I don't have - or need - either defragging or anti-virus tools. Suddenly this car doesn't sound so bad after all :P

there's a great idea by Dr.+X · 2004-03-04 01:58 · Score: 1

"So we shifted the filling station for washer fluid to the side of the car, next to where you fill up fuel, and we closed the bonnet for good."

It's not too hard to imagine a scenario where washer fluid gets into your fuel tank. They really thought this one through.

Re:there's a great idea by socode · 2004-03-04 03:06 · Score: 1

So? It's not too hard to imagine a scenario where someone fills up their car with lemonade.
Re:there's a great idea by zaxus · 2004-03-04 04:50 · Score: 1

I don't know about you, but there are no lemonade filling stations in my neck of the woods.

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/. zen: Imagine a Beowulf cluster of Beowulf clusters...

remote diagnostics by whovian · 2004-03-04 01:59 · Score: 1

The car should be programmed to discover any problems under the bonnet, then send a message to the garage to let them know.

Onstar does somethings along these lines already, plus offers a whole bunch of additional services.

I'm not a customer, only have hear the dramatized radio ads.

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Re:remote diagnostics by enrico_suave · 2004-03-04 02:09 · Score: 4, Informative

I'm not sure I'd trust remote diagonstics...

Car manufacturers do insidious things with their ability to "code" stuff into the onboard computer.

For example nissan purposely ratcheted down the HP of one of their cars in software/firmware and then of course sells an "add on kit" where you get that hp "back" for $$$.

Say nothing of the idiot light's that go on ("ooooh check engine, I'm scared.. I better pull over and get towed to a dealership right away!") at specified intervals/mileage to have people bring in their cars for a manufacturers recommended fleecing.

(note sometimes check engine does indicate a "real" problem... or an emissions issue... YMMV... and if your oil light comes on, for the love of god don't continue driving it for an hour till the engine siezes... pull over and call your husband and/or put some damn oil in!!!! Wait, was that my "outside voice/text"?)

e.

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Re:remote diagnostics by panda · 2004-03-04 05:32 · Score: 1

note sometimes check engine does indicate a "real" problem... or an emissions issue...

Or a loose gas cap.....

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Just be sure to wear the gold uniform when you beam down -- you know what happens when you wear the red one.
Re:remote diagnostics by AK+Marc · 2004-03-04 05:45 · Score: 1

For example nissan purposely ratcheted down the HP of one of their cars in software/firmware and then of course sells an "add on kit" where you get that hp "back" for $$$.

Which car and years? There are a number of manufacturers that do something that could be viewed as the same, but it is completely different. You can blame the federal government. Mainly for fuel economy, there are vehicles optimized with non-performance goals in mind that can have performance increased without violating emissions requirements. The makers know that the people want to get the performance, but to increase it on all the cars could cost the maker big bucks. So they make all the cars with lower performance and better mileage, then their performance arm sells performance upgrades (you can buy performance upgrades directly from Ford, GM, and Chrysler, as well as most imports as well). Why would they have a performance division at nearly every maker if they didn't purposefully compromise their cars as they roll off the line?

The $$$ to "regain" the hp is not all profit. They have to spend $$$ on EPA tests and such to make it a 50 state legal (or 49 state legal) part so they can even sell it. Not to mention that a replacement ECU or chip or even just a re-flash (most do not re-flash, but require purchase of a chip or ECU) is not a free item.

--
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Sounds a little open to abuse by microbox · 2004-03-04 01:59 · Score: 1, Funny

The whole front of the car is moulded in one piece which can be removed only by a Volvo mechanic.

and this...

The car should be programmed to discover any problems under the bonnet, then send a message to the garage to let them know.

Sound great for people who are too rich to have to learn something about their car, like where the brake fluid goes. I give this one 2 thumbs down, and if my neighbour got one, well... it would be a laugh

--

Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right

Re:Sounds a little open to abuse by Unregistered · 2004-03-04 03:41 · Score: 1

Considring the new volvo drives like a tarus and costs twice as much it is already limited to people with more money than sense.

pathetic analogy by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 01:59 · Score: 0

First off, most modern cars are beyond the ability of people to work on anyhow and don't go talking about chip mods, thats not hacking, fixing, or diagnosing, thats just parts replacement unless you are the one re-writing the firmware which I highly doubt.

Secondly, open source doesn't break down in the same sense as a car. Code doesn't wear out.

Back in the day people would overbore cylinders, jet carbs, match ports, tune exhaust *themselves*. These days its a bunch of wannabe racers or more correctly wanna look-like racers who buy bolt on parts purchased online. That is simply not analgous to working with code, its more like buying plugins for photoshop.

This bears watching by onyxruby · 2004-03-04 02:00 · Score: 4, Interesting

This bears watching, especially since a "special" mechanics tool will be required to remove the one piece front end. Stick a "void if removed" warranty sticker over the "special" tool hole, enlist the DMCA and you've got an engine that can never legally be maintained by the owner. If you really want to go whole hog you call the "special" tool a security device and DMCA the car itself.

Just think, cars of the future could be the permanent property of the automotive world. You wouldn't but them, you would license them. I understand Idrive from BMW has a license sticker installed on the windshield that you are forced to accept (by removing) in some countries in order to use the car. All of this could be done with the law as it is today. Circumvention could be prosecuted under the DMCA.

Manufactures would love this because it would force people to get their maintence, even routine maintenence would have to be done at the dealership at their extremely expensive rates. Rates so expensive an entire industry literaly grew up around alternative service options.

Now for the outlandish. This would be a good thing - because it would show joe sixpack how licensing and the DMCA are uncapitalistic and harmful. Your plumber may not give two hoots about a computer, but you can be sure he'll raise hell if he finds out he can't change his own oil or give the old jalolopee to his kids.

Re:This bears watching by EvilTwinSkippy · 2004-03-04 02:03 · Score: 4, Informative

IBM tried this with their mainframes and lost. Case law already states this type of activity is illegal on anti-trust grounds. I'm pretty sure the big-three automakers tried similar tactics, and were also laughed out of court.
Besides, you aren't copying the car. The DMCA doesn't apply.

--
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
Re:This bears watching by 42forty-two42 · 2004-03-04 02:21 · Score: 1

What are you talking about? A welded-shut hood isn't a copy-protection technology, and not even the most foolih judge/jury would think it was. Yes, even in the USA.
Re:This bears watching by onyxruby · 2004-03-04 02:43 · Score: 1

It's not welded shut, it's a one piece hood and quarterpanel assembly that can't be removed without the "special" tool. You can rest assured that the "special" tool is going to be a dealer only item. The DMCA also covers more than copying, it covers access to a system, and the bypassing the "special" tool could be considered circumsission.
Re:This bears watching by iwein · 2004-03-04 03:06 · Score: 1

personally i would love to have an SLA with a car dealer and never have to worry about what's under the hood (bonnet if you like).

like the ppl i work for don't care about who's the owner of their computer or what's inside of it, i don't care what's under the hood of the car i'm driving... as long as it takes me to my customers.

if it would be my car of course it would be a different story...i

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Re:This bears watching by Unregistered · 2004-03-04 03:45 · Score: 1

Won't happen. The american companies at least rely too much on the service anywhere advantage. Plus, for this to work, all the companies would have to do it at the same time. But the car companies are not the airline companies, they aren't cozy. Hell, there are 4 countries with major presences in the industry.
Re:This bears watching by Holi · 2004-03-04 04:38 · Score: 1

Ummm Digital Millenium Copyright Act? No 1st a Car is a physical object not digital information.
2nd Are you trying to illegally copy the car? No you are trying to repair it. No DMCA involved. Now maybe if all they did was lease cars maybe they could say you cannot work on the car. Or under warrenty I guess they could say you invalidate the warrenty by having repairs done by a non-authorized person, and maybe invalidate the lease too. But if you buy it you own it period nothing they can say about what you do with it.

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Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
Re:This bears watching by The_DOD_player · 2004-03-04 04:58 · Score: 1

considered circumsission.

You do mean "Circumvention".... dont you?
We all know you americans are a bit strange, but circumcise a car??... ;)
Re:This bears watching by _xeno_ · 2004-03-04 05:43 · Score: 1

"Access to the engine compartment may allow access to the copyrighted computer code. It is protected from unauthorized access by use of a sealed compartment. Therefore, attempting to access the engine compartment is an attempt to circumvent an effective copyright protection mechanism, which is illegal under the DMCA."
Disclaimer: IANAL, and I have no idea if that's really valid - but it's what I came up with to rationalize the "DMCA" argument. Who knows?

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You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
Re:This bears watching by aschlemm · 2004-03-04 06:07 · Score: 1

I would hope that the Magnuson Moss Act of 1975 would help protect consumers from this sort of behavior. One of the provisions of the MM Act was to protect customers from "Tie-in Sales". A "tie-in" was where a company or seller would force the buyer of a warranted item to buy products or services from a particular vendor otherwise it voided their product warranty. This would be like Ford Motor Company telling anyone that buys a Ford vehicle that they could only use Motorcraft brand lubrication products in their vehicle otherwise it would void their warranty.

Understanding the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act
Re:This bears watching by onyxruby · 2004-03-04 06:47 · Score: 1

I'm not defending this use of the DMCA, I'm stating that this use could be done. In fact it has already been done - by a woodworking tool company.

http://www.gripe2ed.com/scoop/story/2003/10/22/2 21 921/32
Re:This bears watching by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 10:42 · Score: 0

The incident you mention has nothing to do with the DMCA.
Re:This bears watching by EvilTwinSkippy · 2004-03-04 23:09 · Score: 1

You can have all the access you want. You just can't decrypt the thing.

--
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
Re:This bears watching by hyphz · 2004-03-05 01:57 · Score: 1

> You can have all the access you want. You just
> can't decrypt the thing.

Sadly, no. The original poster is correct: the DMCA applies to any technology which impedes copying, even if it is not "the last line of defense".
Re:This bears watching by Holi · 2004-03-05 13:12 · Score: 1

Again how does the DMCA come to be involved. I saw that they had an EULA but that does not automatically involve the DMCA. As the DMCA is only for digital "innovations".

Even after googling this I could find no mentioni of the DMCA involved with that, What that is about is shrinkwrap licenses.

Try not to cry DMCA when it is not involved.

--
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by EvilTwinSkippy · 2004-03-04 02:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

Exactly. Nothing like a thermonuclear blast to wreck your day.

Truth be told though, EMP isn't really a problem for microchips. It's generally a problem for electrical systems with long stretches of wire (like telephones and power grids.) What usually blows out a CMOS chips is static electricity, which you won't get from an EMP.

TMYK

--
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming

They don't have to weld the hood shut. by cblguy · 2004-03-04 02:01 · Score: 5, Insightful

Modern auto engineering is about packing as many options in as little space as possible - all while allowing room to cool the engine.

Many vehicles are designed to have "minor" service with "major" pain. Ever look under the hood of a minivan? Good luck changing the fuel injectors, or a spark plug. Most of these will require removal of at least the intake manifold's upper plenum (along with accessories), if not dropping the engine cradle.

For many people, a "welded" hood already exists - they don't want to open it anyway. It's not for me (I wrench my own cars - rebuilding my own transmission this weekend). But for others, why not. A welded hood is not much of a difference than the way my father-in-law treats his Cadillac anyway.

Re:They don't have to weld the hood shut. by fnj · 2004-03-04 03:30 · Score: 1

There is truth in what you say. The going rate for changing the timing belt on my particular car - an econobox, mind you - is over $800, and is required every 40,000 miles. It involves dismounting all kinds of accessories, loosening engine mounts (!), replacing a number of single-use stretch bolts, making some extremely delicate adjustments at the end, etc., etc. The procedure as written up covers over 100 pages, I kid you not.

To change the headlight bulb on the driver's side, you must raise the hood, shift the battery, remove several awkward screws to remove a cowling behind the headlight, operate an extremely fragile clip (yes, I damaged mine first try), and finally get it all back together again. If you push a bit too hard putting the clip back on, you will cock the assembly, throwing the aim way off, and I don't mind telling you it is extremely difficult to fix if you do cock it.
Re:They don't have to weld the hood shut. by Yogs · 2004-03-04 05:52 · Score: 1

Actually, it would be very interesting to see how far you could go the other way. Make the parts (down to the smallest level of granularity), their dimensions, weight, how they fit together, the tightness to take the bolts to, etc public domain. Have an honest and content rich manual, tutorials, faqs, discussion boards with expert input. Use common, or very easy to manufacture parts wherever possible. You have the ultimate car. Super mod-able, super repairable, yours in every way. The manufacturer can still make money by lower parts transportation and assembly costs. Of course, I'm dreaming, but it's fun.

My problem by lexarius · 2004-03-04 02:01 · Score: 2, Interesting

My problem isn't so much the engine being inaccessible. My problem is that someone thought magnetized seat covers were a good idea. When I get in the car, where do I put my laptop?

Magnets? by dolo666 · 2004-03-04 02:01 · Score: 1

Speaking of computers, is anyone a bit uneasy about the magnets in the seats of this car? What if you put your laptop there?? Isn't it going to fry your hard drive?

Re:Magnets? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:04 · Score: 0

You can't do anything to a hard drive with anything short of a bulk eraser.
Re:Magnets? by jandrese · 2004-03-04 03:23 · Score: 2, Insightful

I doubt it will do much to HDDs, they're reasonably well shielded from this sort of low level magnetic fields. I'd worry more about floppies, and much more about my credit cards.

--

I read the internet for the articles.
Re:Magnets? by Shadwhawk · 2004-03-04 05:33 · Score: 1

Try to catch the Mythbusters episode about eelskin wallets.
They show that you need a field of thousands of gauss to affect the magnetic strip on credit cards, and even then, only when you wave it over the magnet.
Magnets used to attach the seat covers in this car are probably only a few hundred gauss--fridge magnet level.
Re:Magnets? by Cyno01 · 2004-03-04 09:19 · Score: 1

I like mythbusters, but sometimes they miss the point. I've had cards get scrambled by exposure to low level fields. Check out what snopes has to say. A low power magnet can affect a magstrip, espicially over time, like constantly sitting in/sliding in and out of a wallet. I doubt those anti-theft deactivation pads they tell you not to put cards on at the store are thousands of gauss. Also, i cant think that fridge magnet strength magnets would hold anything onto anything real well. I

--
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
Re:Magnets? by jandrese · 2004-03-05 08:13 · Score: 1

I've seen credit cards rendered unusable by mere kitchen magnets before.

Quick tip for the ladies: When you find a souvenir magnets, don't stick them in your bag next to your credit cards. There's nothing worse that getting half way though your vacation and realizing that none of your bank cards or credit cards are working anymore.

--

I read the internet for the articles.

As a woman... by musingmelpomene · 2004-03-04 02:02 · Score: 4, Insightful

I think this is a terrible idea.

Oh yeah, and as a woman who can't afford to go to a mechanic every time my car needs a fluid topoff, I think this would suck a lot.

I think it would discourage people from doing routine maintenance on their vehicles and from being able to figure out problems before heading to the mechanic.

When I go to mechanics, they often try to rip me off or tell me I need more parts than I do. One of them tried to get me to buy a new radiator when I already knew I only needed a coolant overflow tank (because the radiator was full and only the overflow tank was consistently empty).

Sure, if a person's not going to do any maintenance anyway, whatever. But this is basically like saying "rip me off, pretty please, I have no idea what this car does or what's under the hood!"

Additionally - what happens when you need a jump, or when your battery needs replaced? Even the most technologically inept woman I've ever met can be talked through a battery installation. What happens if your battery dies a hundred miles from the nearest Volvo dealership?

Re:As a woman... by Dixie_Flatline · 2004-03-04 05:24 · Score: 1

I think we'd need to see the design of this car first to answer some of your questions. I own a 2003 Saturn Ion, and the battery is actually in the trunk, near the recessed spare tyre. They did it to balance the car's mass more evenly. I can still jump the car from under the hood, though. There's a post that can boost the electrical system, and the steel frame of the car is suitable for grounding. There's no reason that this Volvo can't have something similar in the trunk. From a user interface perspective, this is probably even better than direct battery-to-battery jumps, which people seem to rarely get right on the first try.

Cars have become sufficiently complex that I'm sure most people have no idea what's going on under the hood anyway. The only way that Volvo can make this work is by making sure that their mechanics are trustworthy and competent. I'm already at the mercy of car mechanics, contractors, TV repair shops, etc. This isn't that big of a step.

And hey, if you don't want one, don't buy it. :)
Re:As a woman... by bergeron76 · 2004-03-04 06:38 · Score: 1

The car should be programmed to discover any problems under the bonnet, then send a message to the garage to let them know.

The mechanics would then contact the women directly to invite them over.

--
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
Re:As a woman... by Spirilis · 2004-03-04 07:43 · Score: 1

The irony here is that your radiator could need replacement... typically when coolant leaks slowly out of the cooling system, it is replenished by coolant in the recovery tank, thus the recovery tank appears to lose coolant. Now if you can see the coolant leaking out the bottom of the recovery tank, that's a different story...

--
the real at&t mix
Re:As a woman... by musingmelpomene · 2004-03-04 08:45 · Score: 1

No, the tank lost ALL coolant within a 5 mile drive, continuously. The radiator, however, would remain full for weeks without any problems. Therefore, I feel fairly safe in diagnosing the problem as "not the radiator."

Would you buy an old car with hood welded shut? by zarkzervo · 2004-03-04 02:02 · Score: 1

I have a BMW 3.20i from 1987. It cost me about $6000 a year ago. With an 'old' car you _have_ to get under the hood and fix things. It makes no sense in delivering it to a professional because it is time to change the gas-filter or other parts that fails after some years. The equation (fix-it-price / car value) gives too high a price.

In the future, we will not see cars older than 7 or 8 years old because they will be too expecive to maintain in working condition.

This is good for people's safety, but not good for the environment.

--
Insert `fortune -o` here

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by back_pages · 2004-03-04 02:02 · Score: 4, Funny

One EMP burst and every automobile that has an Engine Control Computer within range of the EMP is dead. =/

I know! These things are WAY too susceptible to the side effects of a nuclear blast! That's why I drive 100% mechanical vehicles from the mid seventies or earlier. The rest of you ninnies are going to look really dumb when the next EMP comes around! HA! HA HA HA!

What is more insulting by sielwolf · 2004-03-04 02:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

that women would never want to open the hood to their car, or that women came up with the concept (that women would never want to open the hood)?

Of course, from the article: The whole front of the car is moulded in one piece which can be removed only by a Volvo mechanic.

Bull. This is up there with the three bits (or whatever) of encryption on DVDs as the lamest attempt at obfuscation. The next day, after hitting the showroom, Autozone would have a 3 dollar wrench to open this bastard. And I bet anyone with an IQ over 10 could pop this badboy off with a screwdriver and a little leverage. That's probably all this Volvo mechanic would do after tiring of this Feature.

A clumsy kludge that has no point other than being a big pain in the ass. Really, does having access to you're car's naughty bits in any way effect driving? This is the New Coke of car innovations.

Besides, the only Swedish vehicle worth sitting in is a Saab Draken. ;)

--
What is music when you despise all sound?

Re:What is more insulting by -dhan-101 · 2004-03-04 07:11 · Score: 1

Of course Autozone would. They run Linux! ;)

Hmm A new way to make money by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:03 · Score: 0

Ok so the hood is welded shut meaning that you have to go to the volvo mechanic. Volvo is one of the more expensive dealerships when it comes to service. My dads coworker has spent over $120,000 on service costs on his 2 Volvo cars he has had since about the mid 80s. This would have been enough to buy 2 new cars within that time or even 3 since prices continue to increase.

Now if the hood was welded shut and it took longer to get in and the mechanics charge $175 per hour and it takes an extra 30 minutes to get the new hood design on and off that would be a good investment for the dealerships! Now you can charge more for every service which is already around $500+ when you do anything other then an oil change.

I don't think this will fly because they already have stuff in the car to tell you when to take it in for service having a stranger call you and tell you to bring in your car for service is not a safe way to notify people about a problem.

Ok i'm done ranting!

The union of cars and computers by AtariAmarok · 2004-03-04 02:03 · Score: 2, Funny

Pretty soon, all the cars will be always on the Internet anyway. Watch for the following in your future:

The MyDoom worm: immediately crashes car into brick wall once you go over 55 mph.

Popup ads in the windshield are an ever-growing visibility problem until you download the Google dashboard which includes a windshield wiper that removes them.

Cops pull you over for overclocking

The same grease-stained mechanic who works on your Apple car also works on your nice white iPod, leaving permanent smudges on the case.

Hayes Accura modem sues Honda Acura car

--
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.

I gotta call bullshit on that.. by swaic · 2004-03-04 02:04 · Score: 1

For some reason, I think feminists would be pretty pissed off if the car was designed with the hood inaccessible to them.

Why would they want a car that considers them so clueless or feeble that they are not capable of checking/changing their own oil or doing other shit under the hood/bonnet.

No way in hell any feminist is buying that car! Or have feminists gone soft. heheh

Cars have been going this way for some time... by evilmango · 2004-03-04 02:04 · Score: 0

The introduction of engine management units and the drive to have *everything* on the car controlled by proprietary chip has stopped many mechanics working on cars. When my car died recently I was forced to take it to the offical dealer because my usual mechanic didn't have the ultra-expensive piece of custom equiment needed to fix the problem.

This sounds kinda like OSS vs proprietary software by Ride-My-Rocket · 2004-03-04 02:04 · Score: 3, Interesting

"If the car says nothing, then everything is fine," said Ms Temm optimistically.

<snip>

"It is minimal maintenance, really, because the customers have limited time and they don't want a car that gives them a lot of hassle," said Ms Christiansen.

I realize this is just a concept car, so I'm not going to get too worked up about this. But this attitude does seems to be an analogue to the open-source vs closed-source software situation.

What this car relies upon is for nothing to go wrong, and for the internal diagnostics to catch any issues or errors that occur. Which is good, because it means most drivers -- who don't know much about how cars work -- will only need to interact with their car in a very cursory way. However, this attitude of welding the hood shut can also work against your average driver. For example, what if you want to add more oil to your car? Even if they redesigned the car so that you could check oil levels or add more oil easily, just as they moved the wiper fluid to more accessible location, what if you wanted to change your own oil, and save $30-$50? You couldn't, and in an emergency, you would need the help of a certified Volve mechanic to remove the hood. To me, this sounds kinda like Windows -- it's really easy to use and designed to take care of most problems, but when things invariably do go wrong, there's not much you can do to investigate (assuming you have the technical expertise, of course).

Right now, cars are kinda clunky and they might not have as much sophisticated diagnostics in place as this concept car, but you can get at everything when you need to. I can't see consumers giving this now that they have it, just as I can't see the open-source movement doing anything but making progress and gaining mind-/market-share in the coming years.

Volvo cars are not made by Volvo Corporation! by a-aiyar · 2004-03-04 02:05 · Score: 3, Informative

The link to Volvo is wrong. Volvo has nothing to do with Volvo cars. Volvo Corporation makes trucks, marine engines, aircraft engines, and used to make cars. The automobile division was sold to Ford about 7 years ago. The correct link is VolvoCars. Long-time Volvo enthusiasts, such as myself (who loved our 140s, 240, and 740s) are somewhat skeptical of the quality of the newer Volvo cars made under Ford management. For instance the latest S40 (due out this spring) shares a common platform with the Ford Focus and the Mazda 3, but costs about twice as much because of the Volvo branding.

Re:Volvo cars are not made by Volvo Corporation! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-09 23:18 · Score: 0

Volvo refused to use the Mazda platform due to security concerns, so the new S40 has a Volvo platform, that will also be used in the new Ford Focus.

RTFA by nicedream · 2004-03-04 02:05 · Score: 1

The "hood" (actually just a one-piece front end) can be removed by a Volvo mechanic.

No seriously, it *is* a car for women - RTA by blorg · 2004-03-04 02:06 · Score: 5, Informative

Volvo's new concept car, launched at the Geneva motor show, is a car designed by women for women. [...] [The car] was designed by a team of women keen to change the way most cars are designed with male drivers in mind. [...] And for women with ponytails, there is even a split in the middle of the headrest. "It is very uncomfortable to drive with a ponytail," said Ms Christiansen.

Re:No seriously, it *is* a car for women - RTA by Mr.+Slippery · 2004-03-04 02:26 · Score: 1

And for women with ponytails, there is even a split in the middle of the headrest. "It is very uncomfortable to drive with a ponytail," said Ms Christiansen.

So is it only uncomfortable for women with ponytails or something? 'Cause I've had very long hair for about 15 years and never noticed this...

--
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Re:No seriously, it *is* a car for women - RTA by Bendebecker · 2004-03-04 02:51 · Score: 1

'"And for women with ponytails, there is even a split in the middle of the headrest. "It is very uncomfortable to drive with a ponytail," said Ms Christiansen.'

And if you slam yout head on the head rest there is a nice split in the middle where the thing can snap in two like a tooth pick.

--
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
Re:No seriously, it *is* a car for women - RTA by tprox · 2004-03-04 02:54 · Score: 2, Informative

Depends where you tie your ponytail. If you tie it right on the back of your head near the top so that the hair sticks out and back you're going to have problems with your car seat head. Most guys I know tie their long hair so that it goes down their back. Women do either depending on the look (I would assume).
Re:No seriously, it *is* a car for women - RTA by NeoSkandranon · 2004-03-04 03:17 · Score: 1

I'm a guy...I have a ponytail (hair longer than most females)

I can say that I have never. Ever. ever. noticed any discomfort while driving. Ms christiansen must do something like drive with her head plastered to the headrest, seems like that would be uncomfortable anyway...

--
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
Re:No seriously, it *is* a car for women - RTA by trikberg · 2004-03-04 03:44 · Score: 1

You should have your head close to the headrest to minimize the risk for whiplash injuries. In a properly designed car, such as a Volvo, you can sit comfortably in your normal position (unless you are leaning forward like a humpback, which will lead to trouble with shoulders and back before you know it) and your head will be close to the headrest.

--
This post is free (as in cheese in a mousetrap).
Re:No seriously, it *is* a car for women - RTA by Mateito · 2004-03-04 03:59 · Score: 1, Funny

It is very uncomfortable to drive with a ponytail
It is uncomfortable to drive with a pony tail, an I am 100 percent bloke....
... and if you disagree with that Ill slap you. Oh shit... I broke a nail.

--
Norman Cook's Ode to Sl
Re:No seriously, it *is* a car for women - RTA by Jardine · 2004-03-04 08:36 · Score: 1

In a properly designed car, such as a Volvo, you can sit comfortably in your normal position (unless you are leaning forward like a humpback, which will lead to trouble with shoulders and back before you know it) and your head will be close to the headrest.

My head tends to be well above the headrest. Apparently only the short are supposed to drive cars.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Lumpy · 2004-03-04 02:06 · Score: 4, Insightful

if you really desire the days of mechanical points for the ignition system then you can have them buddy.

90% of all horsepower increase achievements have came from electronic and computerized engine management. There are things you CANNOT do with mechanical ignition timing and engine management.

--
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.

Already been done!!! by REBloomfield · 2004-03-04 02:06 · Score: 2, Redundant

The Audi A2 already does this. There's a flap for the oil, water, etc, but that's it!!

Porsche Boxster has always been this way by specialized_sworks · 2004-03-04 02:06 · Score: 1

Nothing new really.

How about the Porsche Boxster? You do not have access to the engine from either the hood or the trunk. It's a mid engine sports car.

The only thing you have is 3 ports in the trunk. One is a dipstick, the other is an oil filling cap, and I believe the third is rad fluid.

Doesn't seem to be hurting Boxster sales.

Re:Porsche Boxster has always been this way by MrMickS · 2004-03-04 02:31 · Score: 1

How about the Porsche Boxster?
This is a geek site. How many here could afford a Boxster and of the one that could how many would rather spend the money on more computer kit?

--
You may think me a tired, old, cynic. I'd have to disagree about the tired bit.
Re:Porsche Boxster has always been this way by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:08 · Score: 0

Well, a new base Boxster is about $42k. I'd be very surprised if the new Vulva hits the market for much less than that.
Re:Porsche Boxster has always been this way by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 15:34 · Score: 0

I have one.

So at least one.

Already done by Tyrell+Hawthorne · 2004-03-04 02:06 · Score: 1

Please note that this has more or less already been done. Audi's A2 model only has a small opening where you can fill up washer fluids and oil, but that's it. You won't get near the engine. However, this model hasn't been introduced in the US. Have a look at how it looks at this Swedish Audi site.

weld the doors shut by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:06 · Score: 0

now if we could only weld the doors shut.. or weld some big bumpers to the frontend. And a man to drive while she yacks on her cellphone..

Roadside Breakdown - Hood Up == Distress by AgTiger · 2004-03-04 02:07 · Score: 3, Interesting

Other people have mentioned the Roadside Breakdown aspect, but I don't think anyone's touched on this aspect yet:

Having the hood of a car up is a well recognized sign of vehicle breakdown, and that the driver could probably use assistance.

In my area of the world, if the police see a vehicle with the hood up without their own yellow police tape attached to the vehicle (to indicate they've dealt with this vehicle already), they'll stop and offer assistance.

How, exactly, is the driver of one of these vehicles supposed to use this very simple and well understood signal? Madly flag down drivers and risk getting run over?

And this is only ONE example of what a bad idea this vehicle is.

Re:Roadside Breakdown - Hood Up == Distress by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:42 · Score: 0

In my area of the world, if the police see a vehicle with the hood up without their own yellow police tape attached to the vehicle (to indicate they've dealt with this vehicle already), they'll stop and offer assistance.

Where do you live? Down here in sunny South Florida, law enforcement officers will pretty much just ignore you. When the alternator belt on my car broke halfway between Naples and Ft. Lauderdale, at least four troopers went by without even slowing down. Maybe the rain had something to do with it. Someone finally stopped after seeing me there on her return trip. Yup. A female driver pulled over to help me by letting me use her cell phone.
Re:Roadside Breakdown - Hood Up == Distress by AgTiger · 2004-03-04 03:20 · Score: 1

> Where do you live?

I live in the Province of Ontario, Canada.

From your story, it sounds like some of the FHP (Florida Highway Patrol) have forgotten their motto: "Courtesy, Service, Protection".

That might be something to drop the Director (Christopher A. Knight) a snail-mail about. The main email address is fhp@hsmv.state.fl.us which you can get from this URL: Florida Highway Patrol Contact Information.
Re:Roadside Breakdown - Hood Up == Distress by /dev/trash · 2004-03-04 06:02 · Score: 1

I thought the sign of distress was a white cloth in the front window?

I cannot believe it!!! by Pope+Raymond+Lama · 2004-03-04 02:07 · Score: 1

It was yesterday (march, the 3rd) - I've just made a banner calling for a Free Software Lecture on the local University, and used a "What if your Car Hood Were Shut" analogy to catch the attention of non geeks to the banner.

It is online here (300 Kb jpg, Portuguese, sorry).

--
-><- no .sig is good sig.

Conspiracy by r0ckflite · 2004-03-04 02:08 · Score: 1

Somehow, someway, I just know Microsoft is behind this!!!!! :)

--

Push the button Max!!!!

Poor "dumb" women can't understand cars by Lioner · 2004-03-04 02:08 · Score: 1

This is amazingly sexist. Clearly men and women are different on many levels but to suggest that women can't understand the workings of a car is offensive. Volvo's new "insult the market" marketing campaign reminds me of Dudley Moore in the movie "Crazy People". "Volvos: Boxey but good..."

It is about securing the maintenance market by O0o0Oblubb!O0o0O · 2004-03-04 02:08 · Score: 2, Insightful

This is not a new development. While I have never heard about any manufacturer wanting to do away with the hood, the automotive industry is trying harder and harder to secure their marketshare not only when selling new cars but also when it comes to the maintenance market. As far as new cars are concerned, Volkswagen just got fined a huge sum by the European Union because they were threatening dealersips in the countries adjacent to Germany that they would lose their license if they sold cars to Germans (attempt to eliminate the reimport market, by which people by cheaper cars abroad due to tax differences). As far as the maintenance market is concerned automotive companies have had clauses in their warranty for some time, stating that the yearly inspection/oil change has to be performed by a dealership of the same brand. Furthermore, since cars are becoming more and more reliable on microprocessors (especially engine control), the firmware for these devices is encrypted to make it harder for other companies/garages to offer maintenance and repair services. Do not be surprised if this becomes more and more common place in the next years. It is up to the customer to voice his discontent with this development.

Just my 2c

OMG! by binux · 2004-03-04 02:09 · Score: 1

A common argument used by open source advocates (myself included) in favor of open source is the simple question: 'Would you buy a car with the hood welded shut?'

Open source is dieing!

HONDAS dont break by squaretorus · 2004-03-04 02:09 · Score: 0, Flamebait

I am in the market for a new car. I'll be buying a honda. They dont break. Sure - you'll find a couple of horror stories about some broken Hondas - but nothing like the number with other makes.

I'd LOVE to buy a sealed Honda. So long as the warranty states that the car is good to go for 3 years with no wierd service / repair costs for me to pay and I dont have to even TOUCH the engine / oil levels etc... Im happy as larry.

This won't cost more - it'll cost less. At least for those of us buying relatively new vehicles. For the rest of you saps buying 5-10 year old vehicles - EAT MY SEALED CARS DUST!!!

Re:HONDAS dont break by trentblase · 2004-03-04 02:13 · Score: 1, Funny

They dont break.
They don't have breaks? You just keep driving until you hit a tree?
Re:HONDAS dont break by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:15 · Score: 0

How do you plan on driving a car for 3 years without touching the oil level?
Re:HONDAS dont break by cbiltcliffe · 2004-03-04 02:17 · Score: 5, Insightful

This won't cost more - it'll cost less. At least for those of us buying relatively new vehicles. For the rest of you saps buying 5-10 year old vehicles - EAT MY SEALED CARS DUST!!!

And if the person who's going to buy your car off you when it's 5 years old can't open the hood to fix it themselves, how much do you think they're going to pay you for it? You'll buy a nice shiny new plastic piece of crap with zero resale value.

The vision just popped into my head of dozens of these cars at 10 years old or so driving around major cities with no hood, because the owner ripped it off and left it off.
Volvo hot-rod, anyone? Problem is, I'm sure the practical V6 with hundreds of wires and sensors, so cluttered that you can't even see the engine, won't look nearly as impressive as a chromed 396 big block chevy.

--
"City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
Re:HONDAS dont break by Skater · 2004-03-04 02:27 · Score: 0, Flamebait

You need to check your math and the features you're getting. Honda and Toyota almost always cost more than other manufacturers for similar cars once you get similar features.

Example: Even if you assume I've paid for every repair, I still paid less for my Mercury Cougar than I would've for a Toyota Celica (I know, Toyota, not Honda, but same thing holds), and I have a car with a lot more features and power than the Celica.

--RJ
Re:HONDAS dont break by trentblase · 2004-03-04 02:30 · Score: 1

In fairness, I wasn't actually trying to correct his grammar. I just misread his post and found amusement in my blunder. In the future, however, I'll keep all my spontaneous half-thought comments to meself.
... oh wait, no I won't this is /.
;)
Re:HONDAS dont break by Bendebecker · 2004-03-04 02:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

I wonder if you their are other bodies you can fit on the cars fram. If so, you could pull a hood and front end off another car and put it on it. Sort of like the Alero and the '94 Mustang. It looks like the Alero ahs the same body design so you could probably use some parts interchangebly. Even if you couldn't, I can just see the future: instead of case mods you have hood mods. Clear ones, custom ones, '70's ones.

--
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
Re:HONDAS dont break by squaretorus · 2004-03-04 02:35 · Score: 1

I'd agree with this - but the point is that I KNOW what the costs will be with my Honda - I don't with a comparable Ford. Thats the bit I find attractive - I'd rather pay 10% more in total but not have the inconvenience of breakdowns and repair shops getting in my way.
Re:HONDAS dont break by 74nova · 2004-03-04 02:40 · Score: 1

the resale of your cougar is crap, tho. the thing with hondas is that their resale is very high. ive seen less than average '91 civics go for much more than other similar year cars simply because they are hondas.

--
use your turn signal! you people act like it's divulging information to the enemy
Re:HONDAS dont break by swb · 2004-03-04 02:50 · Score: 1

I'll endorse your Honda purchase.

We've owned three bought-new Hondas and put about 80,000 miles on two of them and have had exactly one problem with them.

The 99 V6 Accord LX had two situations where the driver's side power window wouldn't roll up within about three months of each other. We took it to the dealer under warranty and they tore both the passenger and driver's side doors apart and couldn't find a problem, but the problem never repeated itself, either (I kind of wonder if the taking apart and putting together didn't fix some minor track/sensor misalignment).

Besides solid mechanical reliability, they hold their value well. I sold the '01 CR-V for $15k three weeks ago after we bought an '04 Pilot (wife got a car bennie from work and the Pilot actually costs us less than the CR-V with the bennie).

Another poster in this thread said they cost more than USA cars; this may be true, but when you consider that you have a good chance of driving a Honda for 200,000 miles with almost no maintenance (5-10 years with no car payment, either), its value proposition increases dramatically. I don't know anyone with an American car that can get that kind of mileage with only scheduled maintenance and consumables.

Beyond that, there's just knowing you're pretty much guaranteed to not be fscking around with a broken car. That alone is worth something.
Re:HONDAS dont break by outZider · 2004-03-04 02:53 · Score: 1, Flamebait

Hah. Yes, and Windows is faster and more reliable. You never hear about the transmission problems, or the underpowered engines, or the hidden recalls. You couldn't possibly imagine that maybe, just maybe, Hyundai or Chrysler builds a better car than Honda.

Oh, no, Honda /must/ be better.

--
- oZ
// i am here.
Re:HONDAS dont break by nelsonal · 2004-03-04 02:54 · Score: 1

I think most of the new BMWs come with a 3 or 5 year no maintenece warrenty, you only buy gas. The dealer does your oil, water, and from the ad all other maintenance work. I thought it was sort of a cool idea, expect Toyota (Lexus )to offer it before Honda. Good choice with the Honda, I absolutly love mine, but I reccomend that you get a stick the Hondas with a manual surprisingly peepy (not roast the tires peepy) and are a blast to drive.

--
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
Re:HONDAS dont break by nelsonal · 2004-03-04 02:56 · Score: 1

Does volvo still use that 5 cylinder engine? After they were turbo charged they had a bit of power, but the car weighed so much they were not exactly hot rods (never seen a T5 up close which might affect final judgement).

--
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
Re:HONDAS dont break by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:03 · Score: 0

I did that with my 88 toyota corolla from 96 to 99. During that time I put 45,000 miles on it. It began with a disagreement in college with my roomate - he took his car in to get the oil changed every 3000 miles like they say you're supposed to, and I told him the automotive industry was ripping him off - after all, you always see those commercials about "With STP-foo, you can drain the oil out of your engine and it will still run for 100,000 miles! Choice of NASCAR drivers everywhere!". So anyhoo, I told him I wasn't going to change my oil for 10,000 miles. Well, 10,000 miles passed and the car was fine, and not taking it in for oil changes became a habit. Skipped the recommended tune-up marks, etc... It finally broke, 3 years and 45,000 miles after its last oil change or tune-up. Not bad!
Re:HONDAS dont break by visgoth · 2004-03-04 03:10 · Score: 1

[Nelson Muntz] Ha Ha!

--
My patience is infinite, my time is not.
Re:HONDAS dont break by finkployd · 2004-03-04 03:10 · Score: 1

Go resell that Chrysler or *sniker* that Hyundai. You will find you the used value is practically nothing, because nobody wants them on the used market.

Hondas and Toyotas on the other hand...

Finkployd
Re:HONDAS dont break by Beowulf_Boy · 2004-03-04 03:11 · Score: 2, Informative

Alero is GM, Mustang is ford....you must be thinking of a Mercury.

And they already make custom hoods, and even clear ones. Welcome to the world of Carbon Fiber hoods.
Re:HONDAS dont break by MoneyT · 2004-03-04 03:12 · Score: 1

Well of course it doesn't need to be changed every 3000 miles, but then again, you don't need to run a virus scan on your computer or install the latest windows updates or defrag the HDD or any number of matainence procedures. it's just a good idea.

--
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Re:HONDAS dont break by Bendebecker · 2004-03-04 03:13 · Score: 1

No, I'm thinking of the Alero. If I am not mistaken, Ford sold GM the body design.

--
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
Re:HONDAS dont break by TheSpoom · 2004-03-04 03:18 · Score: 1

I bet that if these cars with welded hoods got popular, instructions on how to open the hoods would be leaked onto the internet very quickly.

And the problem with these things is that only a Volvo technician can open the hood. No taking your car to a non-company garage for you!

--
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
Re:HONDAS dont break by Tassach · 2004-03-04 03:19 · Score: 1

For the rest of you saps buying 5-10 year old vehicles - EAT MY SEALED CARS DUST!!!
Hmmm how much is your sealed-hood Honda going to be worth when the warranty expires? No one in their right mind is going to buy a USED car with a sealed hood, which makes your trade-in value squat. Let's say your car is $25K new, you drive it for three years and it's worth maybe $10K. $15K to drive for three years, before paying for gas? No thank you. I'll buy a GOOD used car for cash, do preventitive maintenance as needed, and spend far less.
My '92 Eldorado was worth about $6500 three years ago, it's worth about $5000 now. In the last three years I've had to put in a new water pump, a new starter, and new tires, and normal tune-up stuff (spark plugs & PCV valves). Total cost for repairs, maintenance, and depreciation over three years: well under $5000. I'm paying 1/3 as much to drive a Cadillac as you're paying to drive a Honda. Who's the sap?

--
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
Re:HONDAS dont break by afidel · 2004-03-04 03:31 · Score: 1

Just gave a 93 Taurus to my future sister-in-law (tomorrow in fact!) and the only issue I had with it was a gasket on the radiator went at about 80K miles . Current car is a 99 Taurus with 160K miles and I haven't done anything but consumables on it. I expect this one to go to 250K miles at least with one tuneup. Of course the engine is the Duratec one of the best engines in the world, made right here in Cleveland Ohio. Ford had Porsche design the engine and once they got it done the Porsche engineers said here it is but we don't think you will be able to make it. Within 6 weeks of starting production the average deviation from spec was 50% of tollerence!

--
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Re:HONDAS dont break by SharkPork · 2004-03-04 03:31 · Score: 1

Hondas break just as much as any other car if not maintaned properly. No reason to put them on some sort of pedestal. If you run it hard and don't do proper maintenance, you'll run into the same problems as any other car. As for the Volvo concept car, it's just that, a concept that will never go into production. It's actually really good policy to get as many points of view as possible when developing a car. Many of the ideas are a little wacky, but future designs could take some variation on a theme and make some nifty improvements. Flip-up rear seats, for example, would make things very handy when hauling things around, if you didn't already have a truck or minivan to do it for you. And speaking of reliability, Volvo makes some of the most reliable and tough cars on the planet. I'd bet that a regularly maintained volvo outlasts a regularly maintained honda 9 out of 10 times... of course, they'd both be 35 years old and ready for the museum by the time they give up the ghost...

--
If you can read this, you are most likely close enough.
Re:HONDAS dont break by afidel · 2004-03-04 03:33 · Score: 1

Actually most manufacturers recomend every 5K miles. I trust the guys who designed the engine more then the people who are trying to sell me engine oil and related services!

--
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Re:HONDAS dont break by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:37 · Score: 0

I'm the kind of creepy car nut who sits up at night memorizing engines codes and who follows every turn in the industry obsessively, and for folks in the know Honda lost their claim to reliability fame a while ago (if they ever had it). Their mainstream fare (Accord, Civic) is pretty average to good, but some of their niche vehicles (e.g. the Element) have downright horrible build quality and reliability (we're talking GM here!).

Much worse however is Honda's refusal to ever recall anything or fix obvious defects under warrenty short of government order or threat of lawsuit. Honda warrenties are essentially meaningless, and as far as risk-aversion goes are about the last car I would buy.

Similarily pretty must all the European makes (Volkswagen, Mercedes, etc.) have bad reliability, BMW and Jag' being the noteable exceptions off the top of my head (the new gen' Volvos - e.g. the S40 - should also be very good).

If you're looking for a safe bet they don't come any safer than Toyota, but you'll pay a premium and other than reliability they're underwhelming in all respects.

Of the domestics Ford is far ahead of GM and Chrysler in reliability and especially quality across their entire line, and the gap is widening (their latest gen' vehiches are the best in the industry and they're investing a lot of money and energy into a turnaround right now). Especially noteworthy is the Focus, which creams the competition in its class in all respects (even +5 years into its model run the Civic and Carolla are a joke next to it, and usually cost more!).

Also don't assume all Japanese cars are created Equal. Toyota has outstanding reliability as always. Honda and (especially) Mazda both make better quality cars (touch and feel) but sacrifice some on the reliability, and are generally shifty with their warrenties (Mazda less so recently it seems, although their dealers have a bad reputation). Subaru, Nissan, Mitsubishi and others are crap inside and out - don't even bother.

In short I'd recomend you limit your search to the Ford and Toyota group brands (Toyota, Lexus, and Ford, Mazda, Volvo, Jag' - forget Land Rover 'cause they have a lot of issues). The Toyotas will have the better reliability, but the Fords will have the better preceived quality and will be a lot more fun to drive.

(BTW I'm assuming you're in North America)
Re:HONDAS dont break by jafuser · 2004-03-04 03:38 · Score: 1

So long as the warranty states that the car is good to go for 3 years with no wierd service / repair costs for me to pay and I dont have to even TOUCH the engine / oil levels etc... Im happy as larry.

This is exactly what I've done with my saturn, which just passed 3 years old. I just take it to the dealer every 3000-3500 miles, and tell them to do whatever's on the maintenance schedule.

Sure, it costs me a bit more than if I do it myself, but the concept is no different.

--
Please consider making an automatic monthly recurring donation to the EFF
Re:HONDAS dont break by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:41 · Score: 0

Are you bragging about them being out of spec? In case you don't know, that's a bad thing.
Re:HONDAS dont break by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:44 · Score: 0

You compare driving a brand new car to a 12 year old clunker and you want to know who's the sap?

Find a mirror, buddy.
Re:HONDAS dont break by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:49 · Score: 0

While yes, they will not break if driven by a sensible person "provided maintenance is performed etc...", any person that drives cars with any vigor will find Honda is not a very durable vehicle. I consider myself a driver whom drives cars fairly hard. I have had in about 7 years approximately 10 cars. Among those cars has been a few CR-X's, and a new Civic. Every single one of these cars has had severe problems that have costed over $1000 to repair. The first CR-X had a blown head gasket caused by being driven too hard "autocrossing caused this; these cars are fairly impressive for what they are". The second one had several accesory failures such as brakes and exhaust. The Civic has had a transmission failure caused "supposedly" by defective syncros from the factory. All cars were meticulously maintained by me; I don't believe in the long fluid/no maintenance policies that car companies push; I believe this policy is simply to make cars wear out faster and harder to repair when they do malfunction. The only car that has stood up to my aggressive driving? A BMW. That car never had anything major go wrong at all, despite the fact that it was autocrossed several times a month. So while yes, Honda's will last a long time if driven sensibly and in an economy fashion, I do not believe that they are any better than any other vehicle; IMHO they are average. In fact, I would go so far as to say the newer ones aren't as durable as the older ones.
Re:HONDAS dont break by squaretorus · 2004-03-04 03:55 · Score: 1

My new Civic cost 12750 almost 3 years ago, hasnt cost me a panny in repairs, and just sold for a shade under 10000. Thats well under 1000/year in costs for motoring in a spanky new car. And I never so much as checked the oil levels. Bargain.

Yeah I could buy a 6 year old Ford for 2 grand and drive it into the scrap yard 3 years from now for less - but not much less - and it'd be a comparitively shit car.
Re:HONDAS dont break by squaretorus · 2004-03-04 03:58 · Score: 1

Anecdotal - but I know 4 people who have owned Volvos - one 80s model, three late 90s models. The 80s model is still running and karting mountain bikes around the country every weekend. It recently passes 350,000 miles.

All of the 90s models have been sold on as when they got out of the 3 year warranty things just kept going wrong.

I know 8 people who drive Hondas. We all love em.
Re:HONDAS dont break by afidel · 2004-03-04 04:00 · Score: 1

No, I'm saying that they were closer to spec then expected and that spec was something that not even the design engineers thought could be accomplished. To give you an idea of how precise the engineering is on the Duratec, the camshafts don't ride on bearings, they ride in a channel machined in the headers floating on a thin film of oil.

--
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Re:HONDAS dont break by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:05 · Score: 0

I would respectfully have to disagree on your comments concerning Ford. Ford has significant design problems, both with their engines and transmissions. All of their engines are build to much less strict tolerances compared to GM and other marques. I would say, in fact, that Ford represents the bottom of the automobile world; Kia and Hyundai at this point are better than Ford. Ford has had more recalls than I can count; this is simply due to poor design and insufficient testing. The 4.6 V8 they have is a joke; this engine is known around mechanic circles as a guaranteed monthly payment due to the frequency in which it blows head gaskets and has bearing falures. The only decent engine they have right now is the Zetec in the PZLEV trim and the engine present in the SVT Focus. I will not even touch on the fequency of the falures concerning their accessories. To top it off, they have very poor interior designs when compared to their competition. To add insult to injury for Ford, their resale value is among the worst in the industry, due to the lack of quality perceived in their brandname. Whenever I think of Ford, I think of an applicance. Ford has a long way to go if they want to rebuild their reputation.
Re:HONDAS dont break by execute85 · 2004-03-04 04:06 · Score: 1

You are correct. I mean what self-respecting pimp would be caught dead in a honda? What, you're not a pimp, I thought only pimps drove '92 Eldorados.
Re:HONDAS dont break by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:08 · Score: 0

Cite some evidence. Smug innuendo proves nothing.
Re:HONDAS dont break by Skater · 2004-03-04 04:14 · Score: 1

Yep, it is crap. But not because it's a Ford, because it's a Cougar. They had a bad start, then Ford cancelled them, and now Ford has moved on to it's new child, the Focus. :)

Another way of looking at "high resale value" is that they're overpriced when you go to buy a used one. When I bought a used car a while back, I found that I could get a lot more car for less money than going with Hondas. And there was no gaurantee that buying a used Honda would net me any more quality than a used Chevrolet - who knows WHAT the original owner did to the car?

Note to mods - Flamebait? My message was not intended to be flamebait but simply another way of looking at the issue.

--RJ
Re:HONDAS dont break by Skater · 2004-03-04 04:18 · Score: 1

10% plus interest on your car loan, don't forget.

By the way, I didn't intend to flame, but the mods didn't agree.

Anyway, even my terrible Cougar hasn't yet broken down on me and left me stranded--its problems have been more idiocy things like slow coolant leaks, noisy brakes, etc., not stuff that disables the car. I'd have no reservations about driving it cross-country today if I had to.

--RJ
Re:HONDAS dont break by eofpi · 2004-03-04 04:21 · Score: 1

There's also a rumor going around that the recommended service intervals from the manufacturer are designed to bring you back for a new car in 100k or so miles.

--
Y'know, you blow up one sun and suddenly everyone expects you to walk on water.
Re:HONDAS dont break by ktulu1115 · 2004-03-04 04:23 · Score: 1

I am in the market for a new car. I'll be buying a honda. They dont break. Sure - you'll find a couple of horror stories about some broken Hondas - but nothing like the number with other makes.

Ditto. My 95 Accord with 200k+ mi runs amazing. My friend's 94 with 250k+ mi still runs well. They might break if you don't take care of them but with proper maintaince they are easily mistaken for a good Linux box....(good uptimes) :)

I'd like to get an S2000 to replace it, but also looking for a 3-series or an STI, also good cars.

Even so, I still wouldn't buy one with a sealed hood - I enjoy working on it myself.

--
# fuser -v /dev/attention | grep work
#
Re:HONDAS dont break by Quadfreak0 · 2004-03-04 04:26 · Score: 1

Maybe you dont see too many "broken" hondas because they usually just shatter on impact when hit by most american cars and especially SUVs.

I've seen a Mustang Crash at 80Mph and the drivers just get up and walk away with only their pride damaged. These guys actually took the car home and reconstructed their front end, by hand with chains and heat! I doubt you would be able to do that with a Welded-shut Honda... even if it didnt shatter on imapct.

At least all your engine parts would stay together.
Re:HONDAS dont break by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:33 · Score: 0

Fine; you have your sealed car.

I'll still be driving my collection of cars (and trucks) that I can work on--and I'll be happy.
Re:HONDAS dont break by Rorschach1 · 2004-03-04 04:33 · Score: 1

Not sure why that's modded as flamebait. I'm pushing 100,000 miles on my '99 Accord, and I've never opened the hood except to add washer fluid when they forgot to during an oil change, or once in awhile just to look at it and think to myself, 'yep... I got one of those ULEV VTEC watchamacallits... cool...'

I'm perfectly capable of changing the oil and such myself, but I don't LIKE working on cars, and I've got plenty of other stuff to do with my time. I put up with crappy cars for years, and paying a bit more for dealer service is worth it for having a reliable car and not having to mess with it.

Now, I've got a friend who needs to have his COMPUTER welded shut. His wife has threatened to next time they buy a new one he hasn't had a chance to mess up yet...
Re:HONDAS dont break by squaretorus · 2004-03-04 04:39 · Score: 1

so far as I can recall thats my first ever flamebait post :-D and I didnt even mean it!!
Re:HONDAS dont break by deanc · 2004-03-04 04:51 · Score: 1

Hondas, like other cars, need to be maintained to manage the upkeep of things that wear out-- eg, brakes, muffler, oil, fluids, etc.

The difference between a honda and other cars is that those little things that go wrong in other cars, like a sticky emergency break, clogged wiper fluid lines or mis-targeted wiper-fluid nozzles, a radio antenna that won't retract (or won't get reception), etc., just don't go wrong in Hondas. At least, in my experience of having owned a Honda vs. other cars, such as a Saab, that I have owned...

The little nuisances that we expect cars to develop with age simply don't develop on Hondas.
Re:HONDAS dont break by capncook · 2004-03-04 04:58 · Score: 1

Speak to your friendly local police officer or cabbie. Aside from changing oil fairly often (every 2 weeks) and scheduled maintanence, Ford Crown Victorias can last for 300,000 miles after going through absolute torture (jackrabbit starts and stops in heavy traffic, long idling sessions, etc.) They usually overhaul the engine around 300k, then drive it for another 300k. They drive them more than half a million miles, or exactly 1 million kilometers. They are amazing.

My 93' CV police package had 90k miles when I got it in 1996. I have only had to follow scheduled maintanence and replace a bad ball joint, tie rod end, and radiator since then. I now have 165,000 miles of driving in ice, snow, and salted roads in Iowa and Massachusetts, and there is practically no rust. The thing just keeps on trucking. Eight years with no car payment. Less than $500 in maintancence per year, on average.

Ford is continually underrated with respect to its cars' reliability, and unfairly put in the same basket as the other detroit big three. In my opinion, Ford is head and shoulders above its domestic competition with respect to reliability.

--
Learn to fly! www.beapilot.com
Re:HONDAS dont break by mark-t · 2004-03-04 05:42 · Score: 1

The only way that you could say that Hondas don't break is if they don't have any moving parts.
And if they don't have any moving parts, then they aren't going to be very effective at getting you from point A to point B.
So if you want to waste your money on a car that won't ever move, go right ahead. The rest of the world, however, will continue to live in this thing we like to call "the real world".

--
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Re:HONDAS dont break by stew-a-cide · 2004-03-04 05:54 · Score: 1

Actually the Zetec wasn't that great and is dead. They've been replaced by a brand new generation of Mazda-designed i4s that are arguably the best among a field of great i4 families (Toyota, Honda, and even GM all have great i4s).

The Duratec family similarily is almost certainly the best in the industry, serving all the way from the Taurus (in SOHC form) to the Aston Martin Vanquish. Especially in higher turn Mazda, Lincoln, and Jaguar form the 3.0 Duratec leads the industry in refinement, output, and price, and will soon be joined by a 3.5.

It's also worth noting that the latest generation of Ford cars have dominated in the much more demanding European market (while Opel and VW have been hemoraging marketshare), and all the new Ford cars are deritives of either European Fords (Focus), Mazdas (Futura), or Volvos (500). Ford North America realized a while ago they're only really good at trucks and decided to specilize at that.

As for interior design you need to check out one of the latest gen' Euro' Fords or the new F-150. Ford passed VW a while ago for best interior quality - the models just haven't made it to North America yet.

I'm not saying buy a Taurus or a Ranger or crap like that - just that the latest generation of cars (F-150, 500, Futura, Freestyle) look set to dominate the industry in all respects.
Re:HONDAS dont break by Tassach · 2004-03-04 06:11 · Score: 1

Nah, they only look lik pimpmobiles if you put on gold-plated rims and a fuzzy steering wheel cover.

--
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
Re:HONDAS dont break by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 06:46 · Score: 0

I hope we get some of the Euro model Fords here in the Americas soon... the American model Fords just don't hold a candle compared to the Euro ones. I've seen the interior from a Mondeo and it looks better than anything we have here from blue oval. As far as the duratec, from a mechanic point-of-view, it's just not built quite as tight as some other engines, although it compares favorably to anything the General or Chrysler has. I've seen some bearing fatigue problems with the duratecs i've worked on. However, they've made head gasket improvements; the duratecs don't seem to chew thru quite as many of those. I'm mainly concentrating on their modular engines such as the 5.4 and the 4.6... those are awful engines IMHO! I've also heard good things about the Mazda engine you've cited... that holds a lot of promise. Honestly, my fave common I4 would have to be the 4G63 6bolt main before the oil journal problems. My fave rare I4 would definitely be the 2.3 I4 from the E30 M3. That was a thing of beauty!
Re:HONDAS dont break by Buran · 2004-03-04 07:06 · Score: 1

Hondas are fantastic. I'm a VW owner myself (2000 Golf) and love it, but my parents drive nothing but Hondas and they are superb. Mom just got an '04 CR-V. We all love it. I'm confident those cars will last 15 years each, at least. (The other one is an '88 Accord LX-i, I drove it for a few years -- it's great; you do have to watch out for the headlight wiring eventually fraying due to the pop-up headlight eventually wearing it out. The dealer will fix it by rerouting the wiring, for a very reasonable price. Also be sure to get the moonroof drain channels de-clogged every so often by pouring a mix of bleach and water down them.)

--
i am a soviet space shuttle
Re:HONDAS dont break by comedian23 · 2004-03-04 07:58 · Score: 1

So here is the math on that one:
45,000 miles = 45K/3K or 15 scheduled oil changes skipped.

1 oil change = $20-35 depending on where you live.

15 * $20 = $300
15 * $35 = $525

Unless you are telling us it costs LESS than $300-535 to repair all the damage you did I think your roomate might have been right about that. Also as someone else noted, most new cars suggest every 5K, not every 3K. Just my opinion tho.

My wife's car gets regular oil changes ever 5K or so and is still running strong at 258K miles. Total investment in oil over that time period: about $1500(here dollars). LESS than the cost of 1 new engine(V6 Maxima).

-Comedian
Re:HONDAS dont break by misterhaan · 2004-03-04 08:17 · Score: 1

And if they don't have any moving parts, then they aren't going to be very effective at getting you from point A to point B.
apparently you haven't heard of the new honda magneto-drive technology . . .
(don't get excited--i made that up)

--
track7.org has all kinds of interesting stuff!
Re:HONDAS dont break by toddestan · 2004-03-04 10:48 · Score: 1

The Alero is basically a repackaged Pontiac Grand Prix, if I remember right. Anyhow, good luck getting the front end of an Alero onto a Mustang. (why would anyone do that anyway?)
Re:HONDAS dont break by Beowulf_Boy · 2004-03-05 11:11 · Score: 1

No..the alero is the Grand Am.
The Grand Prix is a W body, the GA is a N body.

silly by TheSHAD0W · 2004-03-04 02:09 · Score: 2, Insightful

The idea is simply silly. The fact that the hood opens isn't for women to pop open when their cars break down so they can stare at it and wonder why it's not running. (Men either...) It's for the MECHANIC's convenience. Even if it's a Volvo certified shop, to have to pull the vehicle into a bay and hook it up to some gizmo to lift off the front end to replace a plug wire that fell off the distributor is silly. Especially when the vehicle is still under warranty, and the manufacturer is footing the bill. I suspect if Volvo ever implemented this sort of scheme they'd wind up replacing the front ends with ones with standard bonnets just to eliminate the extra load on their dealers' mechanics.

headlights by lamfear · 2004-03-04 02:09 · Score: 1

In a lot of recent cars it's simply impossible to change the bulb of the headlight yourself. There's no way I can change the right-headlight without taking out numerous, ehh, things out of the engine compartment first. Rediculous.

Absolutely by TrekkieGod · 2004-03-04 02:09 · Score: 1

One EMP burst and every automobile that has an Engine Control Computer within range of the EMP is dead.

Those of us in areas where high powered EMP bursts occur routinely really get the shaft, with all these electronics being embedded everywhere...did you know desktop computers are vulnerable? I had to buy 3 over the past month...luckyly we haven't had a burst lat *[NO CARRIER]

Seriously though...yeah...hood welded shut IS stupid. From a consumer point of view anyway...from the dealership and shops everywhere, it's a great idea...if you can't service your own car, you have to go to them for normal maintenance.

Damn the corporations and their "screw the consumer" profit plan...

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Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.

I sent this story in over a month ago! by Anita+Coney · 2004-03-04 02:10 · Score: 1

But was rejected, of course.

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If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.

Volvo was already going this direction by avdi · 2004-03-04 02:10 · Score: 1

I rented a Volvo station wagon recently while my car was being repaired. One day my wife needed her car jump started. I opened up the hood, only to discover that the battery was nowhere to be found.

After much investigation, I discovered the battery buried under floor of the rear cargo area, firmly locked in place by steel brackets which made the use of jumper cables a losing proposition.

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CPAN rules. - Guido van Rossum

who changes their own oil anyway? by 095 · 2004-03-04 02:10 · Score: 0

The car is design for people who never go under the bonnet anyway. Some people take their car to the garage every six months and never do anything else to it. I poke around in there sometimes and check the oil and water, but nothing ever needs doing, so why bother? If something breaks I couldn't fix it anyway because it's all computer controlled and everything is so cramped I can't even get a spanner near anything.

Closed source spreading? by OwlWhacker · 2004-03-04 02:11 · Score: 1

Most likely you won't even be able to buy cars soon, you'll have to 'hire' them out on three-year contracts. Although you'll be able to get free upgrades (if any new versions are actually made), you'll probably find that you can never switch to a different car because it will lock you in.

--
Linux/Open Source/Anti Microsoft News

Reliability vs. Cost of Access by G4from128k · 2004-03-04 02:11 · Score: 3, Insightful

While I doubt that cars have reached this point, there will come a time when it makes economic sense to "weld the hood shut." Building a nice easy-open car hood does cost money. If a car were as reliable as most consumer electronics, there would be little reasons for most people to get inside the hood on a routine basis. Cars are n't there yet, but as engine reliability increases, there will be less reason to get under the hood and thus less reason to pay for all the parts and mechanisms needed to made a door on the front of the car.

When was the last time you needed get inside your car's radio? (OK, I know I posting on /. and someone hacker out their will have done something interesting inside their car radio)

The point is that if the cost of providing access exceeds the benefits of providing access, then you get products with "no user servicable parts inside."

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Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.

Re:Reliability vs. Cost of Access by Rank_Tyro · 2004-03-04 03:24 · Score: 1

"If a car were as reliable as most consumer electronics, there would be little reasons for most people to get inside the hood on a routine basis." Funny you should mention that, I have been buying a new DVD player every year. Paying $100+USD for the things, you would think they would not be disposable.

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Today's show is brought to you by the number 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0: 25
Re:Reliability vs. Cost of Access by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:28 · Score: 0

Yeah, but when that $50 radio does break down I CAN open it (i have before...) if i cant fix it, i go buy a new one and place in in the dash myself....if the engine breaks on one of these cars you have to buy a whole new car or pay rip off prices.
Re:Reliability vs. Cost of Access by Shaiken · 2004-03-04 03:29 · Score: 1

There's a difference between electronics (eg a radio) and mechanics (eg the engine). Your radio will work fine for years without maintenance. Your engine won't.
Re:Reliability vs. Cost of Access by CrayzyJ · 2004-03-04 03:38 · Score: 1

"When was the last time you needed get inside your car's radio?"

This is a flawed argument. The cars radio has few (if any) moving parts - none of which need lubrication and none of which that are subjected to 200,000 miles of 4KRPM friction. Routine maintenance will NEVER go away - belts, oil, grease, coolant are all things that wear out over time.

"If a car were as reliable as most consumer electronics"
You cannot compare mechanical devices to electronic devices. The transitor in my cell phone requires no maintenace, so why should my car? Please.

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Holy s-, it's Jesus!
Re:Reliability vs. Cost of Access by Unregistered · 2004-03-04 03:50 · Score: 1

cars aren't electronic. Your radio isn't powered by an explosive vapopr blowing up inside it. also, cars last a looong time. How many 10 year old radios are there. How many 10 year old cars are there. Plus, cars are too expeniive to be a throway item. When a radio breaks, i throw it away. When a $10000 car breaks i fix it.
Re:Reliability vs. Cost of Access by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:48 · Score: 0

The point is that if the cost of providing access exceeds the benefits of providing access, then you get products with "no user servicable parts inside."

Who's cost and benefits are you referring to? The manufacturer is reducing cost by reducing the consumers benefits. Hopefully it will all even out when nobody buys such vehicles.

Also, electronics became unservicable about the same time they became cheap enough to throw away. Cars haven't been getting cheaper and I doubt Volvo will reduce the price much because they don't have a hood.
Re:Reliability vs. Cost of Access by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 07:00 · Score: 0

Electronics are still servicable (if you have the plans)
Re:Reliability vs. Cost of Access by Theaetetus · 2004-03-04 07:51 · Score: 1

Funny you should mention that, I have been buying a new DVD player every year. Paying $100+USD for the things, you would think they would not be disposable.
Ah, now there's your problem. I buy a 40 dollar DVD player, with component outputs and an optical SPDIF out, and it works great for three years. Then I get a new one and give the old one to a poor friend. ;)
-T
Re:Reliability vs. Cost of Access by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 08:30 · Score: 0

get in my radio? i seem to keep dumping coffee in the damn thing and i have to pull it apart to clean the piece of shit to keep it working. perhaps i should get a ipod to go in it's place...

It's true by This+is+outrageous! · 2004-03-04 02:12 · Score: 1

Recently I got a (used) Forester, and within a week the "check engine" light came up. To even diagnose what it means requires an electronic gizmo that Subaru 1) charges an hour for just plugging in 2) will only sell at outrageous prices. This effectively locked out my trusty local mechanic in favor of the Subaru dealership. It's a trend with all car makers, he said.

(Happy ending, we found another mechanic who could bypass that, and thanks to good Connecticut consumer laws, the dealer paid for the repair. Still, that was a sobering experience -- especially for him, who got the car from this very same dealership...)

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This is...

O U T R A G E O U S !

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by lobsterGun · 2004-03-04 02:12 · Score: 0

Dude!

One EMP burst and every automobile....

Where do you live where this is a problem?

What would the women say by fozzmeister · 2004-03-04 02:13 · Score: 1

Normal(ish) Woman: hey you seen that car Volvo made specifically for women,
Feminist: No what's it like
Normal(ish) Woman: Oh its quite cool, nice shape, fast, cool silver colour with big wheels. Its mega reliable, so reliable infact that they welded the bonnet shut
Feminist: Ok so they create a car for women and weld the bonnet shut, This is a grave insult, they'll regret the day they did this, Quick storm the Volvo car plant....

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by PYves · 2004-03-04 02:13 · Score: 1

Even simpler,

what if you're in a northern country (SAY, SWEDEN?) and your car doesn't start because the battery died in the cold.

It needs somewhere to plug the booster cables.

How Degrading To Women! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:15 · Score: 0

This article states, in no uncertain terms that Women are Stupid and Lazy. This confirms male stereotypes about women and car maintenance. A well designed engine compartment, with easy to read labels for the important fluids, as well as waterproofed wire guidepaths, would be ideal.

The idea that I am proposing, is to create a more user friendly engine compartment, that is appealing not just to women, but to men who spent their high school days somewhere other than the autoshop.

How about a system that assists you to change sparkplugs? Or placing a tray inside the engine compartment to hold loose caps and stuff (so they don't fall on the ground?) Or autochanging light bulbs? Or self-reclaiming oil change system? There are many advances that could be made here to make it a more user friendly car, other than welding shut the hood and claiming that women only know how to put gas and wiper fluid in their car.

In any case, this is STUPID STUPID STUPID. Degreasing the engine compartment alone is a very important annual maintenance item, not to mention the biggest concern here:

YOU HAVE TO GO TO VOLVO TO GET AN OIL CHANGE.

So please, Ford owned Volvo (Vulva?), don't pass this piece of shit off as anything other than a car by marketing for a stereotype. We all want low maintenance, but we aren't so stupid to confuse "low maintenance" with "no maintenance".

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by timeOday · 2004-03-04 02:15 · Score: 1

90% of all horsepower increase achievements have came from electronic and computerized engine management.

Not to mention (do I dare?) reductions in emissions.

Already happening now by zeus_tfc · 2004-03-04 02:16 · Score: 1

Not that the hood is welded shut, but more and more cars (especially "luxury" cars) are coming with a plastic shield over the entire engine, with only gaps for filling the oil and other fluids.

You wouldn't want people to see that ugly engine under the hood, would you?

--
"...At the end of the day"..."when everyone goes home, you're stuck with yourself." RIP Layne Staley

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by 0123456 · 2004-03-04 02:16 · Score: 1

"90% of all horsepower increase achievements have came from electronic and computerized engine management"

Yet my old fuel-injected, computerised 16-valve 1.4 liter saloon car produced 1 bhp less than my current 8-valve, carburettor, mechanical points 1.5 liter convertible, and not a lot of difference in fuel consumption either. Sure, that's probably 5-6 bhp more than it would have got with a carb and mechanical points, but that's an awful lot of complexity to throw in there to achieve it.

Plus, when bin Laden and his mates nuke London, I'll still be able to drive my car while the rest of the city is stationary. Hmm, OK, I guess that will be just like any other business day :).

re by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:16 · Score: 0

This is what happens when you let women at computers...

I mean cars.

I disagree by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:16 · Score: 0

"And I'm not a woman "

You sure act like one.

Re:Awful (well, not all of it) by gosand · 2004-03-04 02:16 · Score: 1

Now I can't be the only one who finds the generalizations made in the article offensive! And I'm not a woman and by no means some earthy-crunchy sensitive 90's-type guy. On top of that, the concept is stupid. There are things that people (yes, even women) can do themselves under the hood of their own car. What's next? Welding our computer cases shut? (or at least making better "void your warranty" stickers)

I thought it sounded like it was made "by women - for women" the way a man would think it should be done. Some of it was pretty ridiculous, and the article says that it won't go into production. But amongst the stupid things, I thought the removable pads on the seat weren't that bad of an idea, but you can certainly buy those after-market. And the rear seat that folds down only to sit in was an interesting idea. I could see that being an option on a smaller car, where space is at a premium.

Some interesting ideas, some really dumb and impractical ones. One piece front end? Please. Any damage to any part of the front end would require the whole thing to be replaced. $$$$$ Gee, maybe the car will call up the dealership and have them ship you a new front end, and automatically charge your credit card.

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My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.

Re:.there is a case by aixou · 2004-03-04 02:18 · Score: 1

There is an excellent case to be made for the benefits of opensource software, but I don't believe the afformentioned analogy makes that case. By basic maintenance I mean things like defragging, ad scanning, config file fiddling or basic stuff of that sort. I don't always do this stuff every day, but they are 'everyday' type of things. Without access to what's under the hood of your car, you can't even perform what would otherwise be routine tasks, such as changing the oil. You couldn't install new headlights, wiper fluid, etc etc. Again, opensource rocks, but I would sure as hell rather have an open-hooded car than an open-source program.

If this car were designed by a man by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:18 · Score: 0

If it had been a team of men who had designed the EXACT SAME CAR. they would have be been fired, mocked, derided, called sexist pigs who are stereotyping women and lynched.

But it is ok, it is a team of women taring every woman with the same brush, so that is ok.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by beaubell · 2004-03-04 02:18 · Score: 5, Interesting

According to this article, the metal frame of an automobile acts as a faraday cage and is therefore immune to EMP blasts.
http://www.aussurvivalist.com/nuclear/empprotectio n.htm

Of course this wouldn't be the case with cars built with plastic frames.

Homo by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:19 · Score: 0

No offense, but its true.

Adult men ignore this kind of thing, as do adult women.

It seems to be men without penises that seem to care (perhaps "without balls" would be more accurate).

Funny... by nova20 · 2004-03-04 02:19 · Score: 1

...How the article *raves* about how this car was made for women by women and the seats are changeable to contour to a women's different clothing styles, etc...

..and then it kinda says "oh yeah -- by the way, the hood can only be opened by a mechanic" near the end.

/nova20

Acuras break by AtariAmarok · 2004-03-04 02:19 · Score: 1

Hondas might not break, but Acuras do. I recall being snowed in, in Boston 10 years ago. The situation caused the traffic to move at 5 mph. Many cars could not take this and expired: about half of the dead cars along the sides of the road were Acuras (not Hondas), and the rest were misc. American cars.

I thought an Acura was just supposed to be a better Honda.

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Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.

Re:Acuras break by ctxspy · 2004-03-04 02:55 · Score: 1

Interesting observation...

I wonder if anyone outside the u.s. / canada, where 'Acura' doesn't exist has had the same experience?

-Tomaj
Re:Acuras break by L0neW0lf · 2004-03-04 03:03 · Score: 1

If you haven't owned an Acura, I don't know how much you can say about this. Especially when your experience is based on a ten-year-old event. I've owned two of them, a `91 Integra RS, and currently a `94 Integra GS-R. Both have been solid cars. In fact, among their owners, Acuras have a reputation for being able to "drive `em like you stole `em" without them falling apart. Acura is Honda's luxury nameplate, using similar engine, drivetrain and suspension systems to Honda. They have a great reliability record and as someone here said the other day, your post is yet another example of someone believing that the plural of "anecdote" is "data". Oh, and my Integra will hit 150,000 miles this week. How many 10-11year old American sport compacts are at that, and still do 0-60 in 8.5 seconds and get an EPA gas mileage of 26/31?

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Never look down your nose at others. Someday, someone is bound to see your boogers.
Re:Acuras break by Beowulf_Boy · 2004-03-04 03:13 · Score: 1

How many 10-11year old American sport compacts are at that, and still do 0-60 in 8.5 seconds and get an EPA gas mileage of 26/31? I'd say my grand prix is doing a pretty good job of it.
Re:Acuras break by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:43 · Score: 0

I thought an Acura was just supposed to be a better Honda.

No. It is just the recyclable version of a Honda (aluminum block and body panels).
Re:Acuras break by AtariAmarok · 2004-03-04 03:58 · Score: 1

If you haven't owned an Acura, I don't know how much you can say about this.

Your experiences fit with what other Acura owners say; I don't doubt you or Acura quality.

I do how to count cars, and when you are stuck in 3-5 mph freeway traffic jams, there is little else to do.

I saw between 15 and 30 conked-out cars on the shoulders. About half were Acuras (possibly all of them the big boxy one that was like an Accord). Even more incredible, none of the conked cars were actual branded Hondas.

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Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Re:Acuras break by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:05 · Score: 0

Hondas might not break, but Acuras do. I recall being snowed in, in Boston 10 years ago. The situation caused the traffic to move at 5 mph. Many cars could not take this and expired: about half of the dead cars along the sides of the road were Acuras (not Hondas), and the rest were misc.
Well, gosh, that's really solid data. Thanks for warning me of the dangers of the Acura!
Re:Acuras break by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 05:49 · Score: 0

show me an american made car with 150,000 miles on it & ill show you a glove box full of auto-parts reciepts.

my 93 civic is still running strong on nothing but oil changes & new tires.

honda & toyota are the only companies still in the car selling business, everybody else is just renting out disposable garbage.
Re:Acuras break by elemental23 · 2004-03-04 09:52 · Score: 1

The engine in my Integra has 'Honda' stamped all over it.

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I like my women like my coffee... pale and bitter.

I wish my car's hood was welded... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:19 · Score: 0

...becouse I hate when it needs to be opened. It's messy, costs a fortune, such a horror.
But I am also scared to think of if my car was like a M$ Windows, the reinstallation, crashes, etc.
Can't we just skip to "beam me up", please?

think about this by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:19 · Score: 0

when they say only a volvo cetified machanic can open this they mean that, anyone else opening may void the warranty and that you probably need a special tool. I know cars very well, if someone I know happened to buy this car and needed something fixed, I could still easily fix it. consider me a car hacker. (oh and in the automotive feild a hacker is someone who fucks up the job of fixing a car)

Future cars by cybermace5 · 2004-03-04 02:19 · Score: 1

So when we finally get flying cars, the hoods will be welded shut? Sad. Might be a good idea though, I don't need some ignorant teen dropping his riced-out Honda Civair on my house. Just a 4-inch tailpipe sticking out of the rubble.

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The Hood Can Be Removed by Greyfox · 2004-03-04 02:19 · Score: 1

You just need a special tool. It's called a "Chainsaw." This tool can also be used to install an optional sunroof.

It IS easier to leave the hood off once you remove it though.

--

I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Bendebecker · 2004-03-04 02:20 · Score: 1

i hear yeah man. Had to fix the heads on my car. Would have cost me 2 grand if I didn't do it myself (cost me something like $300 overall and most of that was just getting the heads cleaned.) "The only time I want to get under the hood is to change the washer fluid?" These women may be designers but they sure as hell ain't mechanics.

As for the EMP burst, if your that close to a nuclear explosion, your car is probably going to get a little more damage than just a busted computer (that coudl b e replaced otherwise.) If the initial blast is out of range, the 300 mph winds will probably still hit you, and even if your still far enough away, the initial heat shock and then the fallout will probably spell your doom. Not to mention that in a post apocalytpic world, were will you be getting gas?

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There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy

Remote Diags by millahtime · 2004-03-04 02:20 · Score: 1

Remote diagnostics and prognostics isn't out of the questions. A lot of the diagnostics/prognostics is already done just not sent up remotely. The problem that arises with the remotely is for that to work you have to be in some kind of network area like with cell phones to send the data. How would they accomplish this??? Then, who wants to pay all that money to take it to a dealer when a dealer is priced much higher than a lot of local mechanics that can do the same thing.

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Evolution or ID?

Somone got paid by cs02rm0 · 2004-03-04 02:20 · Score: 1

far too much to come up with that.

Only marketing departments could find a way of making a product more attractive on the basis of removing a feature and then marketing the product at a market that already considered it irrelevant.

Time to be a Volvo mechanic (cha-ching!) by codefool · 2004-03-04 02:21 · Score: 5, Funny

YCC Chick: What seems to be wrong with my car?
Tow Truck Driver: Welp, it seems you've done busted a fan belt.
YCCC: Golly! Can you fix it? I mean, I'm stuck out here in the rain in the middle of nowhere.
TTD: No problem, little lady. Fan belts aint't no real trick. Happens all the time.
YCCC: Will it cost very much? I mean, I just spent all my money on this groovy car built by women, for women.
TTD: The fan belt will cost you about twelve bucks, but the installtion will be about twelve-hundred.
YCCC: WTF!?
TTD: Welp, you see we gotta tow this honey to a Volvo dealer, and they have to take the front end apart to install the fan belt. Shouldn't take more than a couple of days.
YCCC: (crying) But, its so easy to refill the washer fluid...

Give me a freakin break...

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"Stop whining!" - Arnold, as Mr. Kimble

what next? by Pragmo+D · 2004-03-04 02:21 · Score: 2, Interesting

Well, this certainly is reminiscent of the Windows mentality of marketing. These days, consumers want all the benefits of modern technology, without the bother of having actually understand how any of it works. This creates a whole industry of service-related jobs, such as mechanics (or tech support lackies) who, in many cases, do nothing more than a reasonably interested and intelligent owner could do themselves with a bit of research.

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You can kiss a nun... Just don't get into the habit.

This is insane... by djeaux · 2004-03-04 02:22 · Score: 1

If the hood is welded shut (or the car doesn't even have a hood), how the hell am I going to install my Edelbrock manifold, Hooker headers & nitrous oxide system?

Won't see many Volvos running in NHRA Super Stock, I guess... ;-)

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"Obviously, I'm not an IBM computer any more than I'm an ashtray" (Bob Dylan)

Re:Only a Volvo mechanic? YOU WILL COME IN by curtisk · 2004-03-04 02:22 · Score: 1

!!! A scary thought.....I wonder if the warranty stipulates that YOU MUST BRING THE CAR IN WHEN THE SHOP CALLS YOU, lest you void the warranty since you are being negligent in regard to the cars maintenance and upkeep

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Sehr geehrter Toilettenbenutzer!

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by intertwingled · 2004-03-04 02:22 · Score: 1

Can you be sure, SURE, that a thermonuclear bomb on a satellite might not go off accidently in space? Sure, Permissive Action Link technology is good, but nothing is perfect.

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-- SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER.

Hiding the battery by porkchop_d_clown · 2004-03-04 02:22 · Score: 1

I'm not surprised that they moved the battery, but I'm surprised the owner's manual didn't have instructions for doing a jump - it shouldn't be that hard to mark a positive terminal some place on the car, and the negative just goes to the chassis - which is where you're supposed to put it anyway, right?

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Clear, Dark Skies

Re:Hiding the battery by avdi · 2004-03-04 03:16 · Score: 1

Believe me, I combed through the manual. The manual didn't even mention that the battery was in the rear, and the diagram it showed for accessing the battery didn't give enough context to make it clear *where* in the car it was located.

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CPAN rules. - Guido van Rossum

But you own your car by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:23 · Score: 0

But you own your car and therefore can cut a hole in the hood, change out the engine, and sell your car. With the GPL, you can't. With BSD you can. This car example is simular to the BSD solution.

Welding the bonnet shut makes perfect sense by Moderation+abuser · 2004-03-04 02:23 · Score: 2, Insightful

But it only makes sense if you only ever consider the first 3 years (i.e. the warranty period) of a car's life. After that the car gets passed on to the second user market, no longer with a warranty.

How does the new owner of a perfectly good 3 year old car replace the battery? It becomes an hour labour for a mechanic plus the cost of the battery (90). And think about the amount of time you have to take out of your day to take the car to a dealer's garage, several hours. It only takes 10 mins to replace a battery normally (30). How about a new fan belt?

The problem with manufacturers who think like this is that they only care about the first user who buys the car new from a showroom. The second and subsequent users are irrelevant to them. This will obviously affect the resale value of their cars.

--
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.

Not in the US by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:23 · Score: 0

" Yes but also the warranty will then be void! That's what this is all about."

In the US we have laws that specifically allow people to work on their own cars.

Passed in an age when the US Government was around to help the average citizen.

It would never pass today, of course, but then in today's climate, libraries would be called "Communist", whatever that means.

what is that stuff under the hood? by bad-badtz-maru · 2004-03-04 02:23 · Score: 1

They might as well start welding the hood shut on cars. I used to do most of my own maintenance on my previous vehicle... on my '03 Eclipse I can't even find the spark plugs!

Audi A2 "service module" image by olip · 2004-03-04 02:24 · Score: 1

I had this as a rental car ... the oil signal lighted up... It took me a deep dive into the manual to understand this "sealed hood + service module" concept.
Found an photo - here we go :
http://www.audi-a2.co.uk/bonnet1.jpg

Two Points by Thunderstruck · 2004-03-04 02:24 · Score: 1

I will address two points, the car and the women.

1. The Car
I have to agree with the open source folks on the subject of a car with the hood welded shut. The automotive industry has been looking for years to find ways to keep "outsiders" from working on their products... this is why we have proprietary diagnostic codes in car computers, and needed a Supreme Court decision to get them released to the public. And who do you think invented the tamper-resistant torx bolt? Now while I can barely discern C++ from Pascall, I have replaced a radiator by the side of a road 50 miles from the nearest town... I'll take the open hood thanks.

2. Women
Anyone who says women generally do not have different preferences from men has never met a woman. As enlightened as we all pretend to be, there will always be things which are feminine and things which are masculine. I see no problem in designing a car "For Women" any more than a company making clothing "For Women."

Fear of Sexism is stiffling innovation.

--
Trying to use sarcasm in text-based forums does not work.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by davew666 · 2004-03-04 02:24 · Score: 1

I think if there is an EMP Pulse you will have more things to worry about than driving to work. Besides, where will the fuel come from to power the old fashioned engines? I don't think the world oil infrastructure would be too efficient if you took all the electronics out of it.

Maybe while you are at it you should replace the headlights on your non ECU cars with oil lamps so that you can drive them at night too.

You DON'T fix a modern car by yourself by Squashee · 2004-03-04 02:25 · Score: 3, Insightful

Sure, welding the hood shut is a very provocative step, and the majority of the comments are about "stopping on a highway" etc. You think you can fix engine problems on new, modern cars yourself? Think again. I have many times over stripped my 90' volvo 245 EEC engine, and that I can fix, but my motherns new Renault? No way. Don't even know where to start. Modern car engines are extremly complicated and compact, and they contain a LOT of stuff that wasn't there on your ol' chevy. You might know the error, but you even can't find/reach the component! You actually do need specialist help to fix you'r car these days, or at least you need a extra trailer with equipment and tools. I doubt the majority of the people who talk about the "stranded on the side of a highway" actually have ever tried to fix something on a car built this millenium.

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When in doubt, act determined. Business 101

Re:You DON'T fix a modern car by yourself by BiteMeFanboy · 2004-03-04 02:47 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Don't even know where to start. Modern car engines are extremly complicated and compact, and they contain a LOT of stuff that wasn't there on your ol' chevy. You might know the error, but you even can't find/reach the component!
It's called a Chilton's manual you moron. Chill out on the mechanical technophobia.
Re:You DON'T fix a modern car by yourself by trash+eighty · 2004-03-04 03:25 · Score: 2, Interesting

so if you have a welded shut bonnet you can't even hope a roadside recovery mechanic can fix it.
Re:You DON'T fix a modern car by yourself by zsz2k · 2004-03-04 07:49 · Score: 1

I've done a stage 3 turbo swap on my 2001.5 drive-by-wire Audi A4 (this involved swapping the turbo, exhaust manifold, cat, plugs, injectors, hoses, vac lines...) I also installed a suspension last weekend, put in a snub mount, anti-roll bars, etc. I do routine maintenance on it (oil/belts/coolant/rotors/pads/etc.) and troubleshoot engine codes with the $200 Vag-com I bought that connects to the car's OBD-II port and talks to the car's ECU. The one thing I have not managed to do is to replace the wheel bearing. I got a specialty tool to pull the bearing housing (~$250), but my impact wrench wasn't powerful enough at 250 ft-lbs. Anyway, sure you can service even the newest vehicles yourself. It just requires interest, patience, and lots of band-aids. And I'm a computer dork by day.
Re:You DON'T fix a modern car by yourself by Mr.+Roadkill · 2004-03-04 12:05 · Score: 1

Sure, welding the hood shut is a very provocative step, and the majority of the comments are about "stopping on a highway" etc. You think you can fix engine problems on new, modern cars yourself?
Remember, today's high-tech engine is tomorrow's clunker.
On another note, this may not be such a bad thing for certain classes of user - and may even have benefits for properly-clued smaller and home mechanics anyway. Before anyone asks WTF I'm smoking, hear me out.
Logically, if the bonnet is welded shut you'll need to drop the whole engine and drivetrain to do stuff to the engine. What's the hardest part of working on engines? Reaching around between the engine and the body, especially with today's designs.
In order to make servicing such a vehicle economical, I would envisage about eight bolts (threaded) to lock things in place, about four slide bolts to allow the engine and drivetrain to drop out, an exhaust quick-release assembly (why not? Stainless steel, some wacky clamps and an asbestos gasket) a single connector for fuel and vapour lines, and a single connector for power and data connections.
So, you drive the vehicle onto a custom ramp. You use some chassis stands to hold the vehicle up at the jacking points, undo the bolts and connectors, lower the part of the ramp below the wheels slowly and then wheel the power unit out from under the front of the car. Everything is easy to get to, making it easier to do the job properly.
If they can standardise the dimensions, it should even make it easier to change between types of engine. Feeling green? Install a hybrid on your next service, or a CNG engine (along with the appropriate fuel delivery kit, also modular and designed to fit into a particular chassis series). Need more zing? Go the 3 litre turbo this time around. I also can't see a reason why engines couldn't be serviced on an "exchange" basis - they drop the old one, put another one in that's guaranteed to give a certain performance level until your next service, and away you go. Who knows - maybe you could buy the shell, but just lease the power plant appropriate for your needs?
Personal transportation is already a commodity for those who can afford it to be; if you have a Volvo or a BMW, you take it back to the dealer once every few months and probably never bother with what's under the bonnet. Although this will very much cater exclusively to this class of motorist in the beginning, it could introduce some design practices that could benefit us all.
The only people it might disadvantage are the people who drive the kind of crap I drive... although there are compelling arguments that clearing smokey deathtraps off the road is a good thing.

volvo cars vs volvo trucks by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:25 · Score: 0

the volvo url is for the volvo heavy equipment co, not the volvo car co owned by ford - http://www.volvocars.com/ and you have to presume they would put the normally replaced part and the fillcaps in a place with easy access

Vive la difference by beforewisdom · 2004-03-04 02:26 · Score: 1

Unlike computers, you have choices with cars.

Watch how fast people don't buy these cars.

People who want control definately will not like this.

People who don't want to deal with their cars themselves will not care enough to seek these cars out.....they take their cars to mechanics anyway.

Steve

Re:Vive la difference by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 06:03 · Score: 0

You can't buy this car. It's a concept car. They come up with design concepts, show it to the public. The public looks at it makes comments and the manufacturer tries to adopt the most readily accepted and easily retooled components in their production lines.

Wrong analogy by ToasterTester · 2004-03-04 02:26 · Score: 1

All OS have a hood that opens how else would you do maintenance. What they should of said would you buy a car that didn't come with complete blueprints for the engines and all other components. Open source and engine blueprints are the equvilents.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:26 · Score: 0

But if there WAS a nuclear blast close enough that the EMP got all your electronic equipment, but far enough away that it was surviveable, you now have no vehicle with which to escape the fallout and get to a safe distance.

Meaningless analogy by Junks+Jerzey · 2004-03-04 02:26 · Score: 2, Interesting

Would you buy a car with the hood welded shut?

Okay, this is an absolutely terrible analogy. Why?

Engines are mechanical devices and wear down and break, just from everyday use. This doesn't happen to software. It doesn't wear out and break because you use it every day.

The majority of street car engines are essentially the same. If you understand the principles, you'll understand the principles in any car. Software is not the same. Just because you understand the architecture of a particular database program doesn't mean you have a clue about the architecture of other database programs. Obviously it doesn't mean you have a clue about the architecture of random page layout programs, photo editing programs, C++ compilers, and so on.

Along the same lines, which do you think is more complex? A car engine or the source code to gcc? Theres absolutely no doubt that it's the latter by an order of magnitude.

Just because you can open the hood to your car doesn't mean you know what to do with all those big boxes of chips and wires and a computer controlled fuel injector and so on. If you're riding down the highway and all of a sudden your digital speedometer goes our--or even simpler, the "check engine" light comes on--explain to me how lifting the hood is going to help you. Maybe in the 1970s when cars were simpler. Ditto for most software.

One of the keys to open source, one that even the advocates miss, is that it goes hand in hand with SIMPLICITY. If you have a well-written, clear, and short program, then you can tinker with it. You can't tinker with 200,000 lines of code, unless you have someone to walk through it with you and answer your questions. In reality, odds are that a blind change, no matter how experienced you are, is not going to be a good match for an architecture you don't fully understand.

Please, so-called open source advocates, enough with the soundbites and naive viewpoints. Be realistic.

Re:Meaningless analogy by wayland · 2004-03-04 14:35 · Score: 1

# Engines are mechanical devices and wear down and break, just from everyday use. This doesn't happen to software. It doesn't wear out and break because you use it every day.

Agreed. But the way some people use their computers, it does. I work in a computer repair shop, and the guys who repair computers sometimes get the same person coming in numerous times with crud on their computer which makes it crash. So if you use it daily in a certain fashion, it will.

# The majority of street car engines are essentially the same. If you understand the principles, you'll understand the principles in any car. Software is not the same. Just because you understand the architecture of a particular database program doesn't mean you have a clue about the architecture of other database programs. Obviously it doesn't mean you have a clue about the architecture of random page layout programs, photo editing programs, C++ compilers, and so on. ...and that's why it's even more important to have cars not welded shut -- a wider range of people can do something under the hood than with source code.

# Along the same lines, which do you think is more complex? A car engine or the source code to gcc? Theres absolutely no doubt that it's the latter by an order of magnitude.

Agreed. But why does this make the analogy invalid? It's almost like saying that 19" screens are essentially different than 15" screens; with the screens, there is increased size; with the car/gcc, there is increased complexity, but it doesn't invalidate the principle.

# Just because you can open the hood to your car doesn't mean you know what to do with all those big boxes of chips and wires and a computer controlled fuel injector and so on. If you're riding down the highway and all of a sudden your digital speedometer goes our--or even simpler, the "check engine" light comes on--explain to me how lifting the hood is going to help you. Maybe in the 1970s when cars were simpler. Ditto for most software.

One of the keys to open source, one that even the advocates miss, is that it goes hand in hand with SIMPLICITY. If you have a well-written, clear, and short program, then you can tinker with it. You can't tinker with 200,000 lines of code, unless you have someone to walk through it with you and answer your questions. In reality, odds are that a blind change, no matter how experienced you are, is not going to be a good match for an architecture you don't fully understand.

Well, I've done this with a 60,000 line program. The version of cfengine I'm using is 61,396 lines long. It has a built-in SMTP mail sender. There was a bug in this sender in that it didn't recognise multi-line SMTP responses. Most mail servers don't do these, so it's not a problem, but the mail software I'm using does. I tracked down the appropriate function by reading the code, and sent in a fix (although I recommended that the cfengine chief architect check it because I hadn't coded C in over 6 years).

My point is, with a car, sure, maybe you often can't do anything, but if you understand the general principle of how an engine works (kinda like I understand C), then you can at least sometimes spot the problem.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by jridley · 2004-03-04 02:26 · Score: 5, Insightful

I have to disagree. The advantages of modern engine control are huge. Computer control has given us tons in terms of increased efficiency and horsepower, decreased emissions, and increased integration between components; IE when you stomp on the gas, the computer turns off the A/C for a few seconds to divert power to the drivetrain.

Computer engine control was kind of rough when it first started being used; the computers died a lot, they were susceptible to sensor failure, etc. Now they're way better, and engines are FAR more reliable than they were before computers.

I for one don't want to go back to the days of carburetors and distributors. Fuel injection and coil packs or coil-on-plug, along with the computer(s) to control them, have made cars LOADS more reliable. Sure, it may be harder to work on them, but you don't NEED to work on them nearly as much.

Try taking a 1969 car and driving it 120,000 miles without doing anything more than changing the oil.

Also, I find that in most cases it's EASIER to work on my car with a computer. Without a computer you only know if there's something wrong if it's bad enough to cause serious performance degradation. With a computer, you can catch problems way before they become serious. I had a light a few months ago, went to the auto parts store, borrowed their scanner, saw that I had a stuck EGR valve, wrenched it off, cleaned it, and replaced it. Without the computer I'd never have had a clue, just kept polluting more than necessary, and possibly fouling my catalytic converter as well.

I do have to agree about the shut hood though. I'd never even consider buying a car like this, or letting anyone in my family buy one.

I think they're missing a bit by saying this is "for women" - most men never do anything under the hood, either; I know men that are more hopeless mechanically than many women I know. One of the best mechanics I've ever had was female. I think the whole thing is kind of insulting.

Wasn't there a novel about this... by Bendebecker · 2004-03-04 02:27 · Score: 1

"Ring Around the Sun" by Simak - they build a car that has the hood welded shut and is guranteed to never ever breakdown. If it does, they replace the car for free. If Volvo is going to do teh same they should offer the same warranty. Somehow I suspect they won't be so keen on welding the hood shut...

--
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy

The funniest thing is by The+Tyro · 2004-03-04 02:27 · Score: 3, Funny

the quote about Volvo's CEO:

"a mood encouraged by women-friendly Volvo boss Hans-Olov Olsson."

Hmmmm... that's a curious statement open to misinterpretation. Now what'd they mean by that, eh?... exactly how "women-friendly" is he? wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more... (sorry... BBC article... had to throw that in...)

--
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.

Missleading blurb, in wrong context... by Drakin · 2004-03-04 02:27 · Score: 1

Not to mention the fact that they said this car will never see production.

There's a number of reasons to -not- weld the hood shut.

For instance, it's a lot easier for the mechanics to access it if they don't have to go through a lengthy procedure.

It'd be hard to jump start properly.

It's got to be opened sometime. Maybe they'd -lock- it shut... but, anyone who's gota few tools can solve that in a hurry...

VW Headlights by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:28 · Score: 0

Can post the headlight replacement section of a new VW Bug? I remember it is quite comical. Something about increasingly complex nature of automobiles.

Presumptious article by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:28 · Score: 0

Takes for granted I'll have a car in the future

Already happened by bonaldi · 2004-03-04 02:29 · Score: 1

the Audi A2 pretty much has it's hood welded shut - it's impossible to get in there, you just flip down a little panel for access to oil and water. And the MG TF - you can only get to the engine when the car's on a ramp. And the Mercedes A-class has the engine under the floor.

It's not new, really.

And the water/petrol problem isn't really a biggie. What happens when you fill up in the rain? A lot of tanks have a degree of water in there, don't sweat it. Petrol in the water would be bad, but since the nozzle will be larger, it shouldn't be a biggie.

Oxymoron? by ahg · 2004-03-04 02:29 · Score: 1

So they have implemented a body scanning system which enables the car to automatically adjust seats, mirrors, steering wheels and pedals.

"It is minimal maintenance, really, because the customers have limited time and they don't want a car that gives them a lot of hassle," said Ms Christiansen.

Is there anyone else who finds these to statements oxymoronic? I'm thinking in a car with that many power adjustable thingies... there's going to be maitenance up to wazooo... What happens when the body scanning system goes on the fritz... while you're driving... and pulls you away from the pedals to setting for your 6"5' husband?

--

--Aaron Greenberg

UNIX-ish by Bud · 2004-03-04 02:30 · Score: 3, Funny

"If the car says nothing, then everything is fine," said Ms Temm optimistically.

Cool. This is really a good idea from a user interface point of view, and one which makes the UNIX shell so nice to work with. If you get no response from the shell command, it means that things went just fine.

Speaking of welded-shut motor hoods... you know, I'd hate to cruise down the highway and see the warning message on the panel: "You have shifted into fifth gear. The change will take effect after you have restarted the motor. Restart now? [Yes] [No]"...

--Bud

Designed by women for women... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:30 · Score: 0

I understand now!

It is just based on the assumption of unlimited amount of money: "The car should be programmed to discover any problems under the bonnet, then send a message to the garage to let them know.
The mechanics would then contact the women directly to invite them over."

As a future enhancement, the Volvo mechanic would preferably be a prince, arriving on white horse to rescue poor female drivers...

My wife would design exactly the same car...

I'm a car guy, but I'm lost. by karmaflux · 2004-03-04 02:31 · Score: 2, Interesting

Will someone explain to me the benefit to the customer of having a hood stuck shut? Why would someone pay for that, rather than buying a cheaper car and just not opening the hood?

--

REM Old programmers don't die. They just GOSUB without RETURN.

Re:I'm a car guy, but I'm lost. by jorlando · 2004-03-04 02:44 · Score: 1

I think that was just for the stethical appearance... the article says "Do we need to have a one metre square hatch for that..." so you get rid of the entire hood and you get a seamless part.

look at the picture. I think the seamless appearence is very beatiful. But I dont think it's welded, I think it's more like some GT race cars, that the entire front part of the car is removed or lifted to give access to the motor.
Re:I'm a car guy, but I'm lost. by Unregistered · 2004-03-04 03:53 · Score: 1

One word: Stupidity.

Re:Lord fucking Christ by kj0rn · 2004-03-04 02:31 · Score: 1

Well in my own defense, both the break fluid and the washer bottle have identical lids and are next to each other (well, one is blue and one is black)

*shrug*

kjonr

Volvo/Vulva by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:32 · Score: 1, Funny

When my daughter was 2 or 3, and learning about her body, she pointed between her legs, asking what that was. My wife told here it was her "vulva." My daughter, being only 2 or 3, had some pronunciation problems, so it came out as "wow-wow." So right after hearing that, and still every now and then, when driving without the kids we see a Volvo, we'll say, "Look, there goes a Wow-wow." Further humor could ensue, but we'll leave, now.

as by gl4ss · 2004-03-04 02:32 · Score: 1

and in 5 years it would have been sawn open, though of course there would be a way to open it, just not an obvious way or a meant way..

volvos tend to be driven for years and years, way past it makes any sense to use their own services for keeping it running(my grandparents have one they've driven 500 000 km now.. still going strong).

anyways most cars have engine covers(for sound muffling & etc) that are basically exactly the same thing, of course you can take them out if you need to get to the engine.

--
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.

Concept car for women by jorlando · 2004-03-04 02:32 · Score: 1

Praticity: welded bonnet, since women *usually* don't know how to do basic maintanence. Arguments about expensive maintanence for simple item like oil change, radiator fluid, etc, are not so important since it's a Volvo, that's already expensive and it's users should take their car only to authorized service that already more expensive anyway.

Safety items (since it's a concept car): no keys, so women can't start the engine, just a motor sound and a little vibratios to pretend that the car is moving. Brakes always locked, so the car don't move by accident when the parking brake is accidentaly released. mirrored windshield. mirrored to inside the car. so the woman can do her make up properly, without usind the tiny rear mirror

I couldn't resist... sorry :-)

Users and advanced users by nuggz · 2004-03-04 02:32 · Score: 1

Sheesh, read the article and follow up a bit.

The YCC is a user friendly car.
Think of the hood as the "Advanced" dialog on a GUI.

They want to put washer fluid and gas in it, so have those the only two inputs normally shown.

Why put washer fluid along with all that other complicated stuff you never have to touch?
All those fuses, wires, other fluids, they're just confusing, why not hide them. Isn't that good UI design?

Re:Users and advanced users by Mantrid · 2004-03-04 02:51 · Score: 1

Heh this is actually a good idea - of course allow the hood to be opened (no thanks on being tied to dealer servicing), but having the washer fluid fillable from a more accessible location is an awesome idea. I guess the only problem might be you'd need some sort of funnel, or an upwards facing port - those washer fluid bottles like to splash all over as it is.

$100 hr. labor by Perl-Pusher · 2004-03-04 02:32 · Score: 1

To change an air filter or battery. And by not having a hood you guarantee at least the first $100. They call that sensible? While you can remove seat pads to clean them, you can't check your oil and put some in to make it to the garage without ruining the engine. I guess calling a tow truck is easier if you have the cash to waste.

"Honestly, the only time I open the bonnet on my car is when I want to fill up washer fluid," said Tatiana Butovitsch Temm.

So she doesn't worry about her break fluid, coolant, oil or transmission fluid. But damn gotta have the window cleaner. Seems they were more worried about look (cleaning, color coordination etc.) than the mechanical soundness of the vehicle. The only people who would like this are people who call a cars hood a bonnet. What's what's next an auto designed by the queer eye guys? Good thing it's only a concept car.

Stereotypes are accurate in this case! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:33 · Score: 0

How many women do you know that build engines or work on cars? It's not PC, but 99.9x% of women want nothing to do with messing with cars. I'm suprised to see this kind of pandering to the bleeding hearts here on Slashdot.

I'd guess the percentage is close to the number of Y-chromosome challenged kernel developers.

Insightful, my ass.

How will this bomb? Let me count the ways... by jejones · 2004-03-04 02:35 · Score: 2, Insightful

Panders to stereotypes about women a la the "Math is hard" Barbie.
Seems to think women are vain creatures who want to be the Imelda Marcos of car seat covers.
"The engine's on fire--quick, call the mechanic to open it up!"
"That fender bender will run you $2000 to replace the one-piece front end..."

Maybe it's different in England by The+Tyro · 2004-03-04 02:36 · Score: 4, Insightful

but I'd never ask my wife to stand on the side of a US interstate with the hood up, waiting for who-the-hell-knows to stop... that's a recipe for disaster in some parts of the country. Now, I myself stop for people from time to time (it's my medic's instinct to see if they need help), but I don't expect them to trust me... and if they hint I should drive on, I always do so.

That's what cell phones are for... I'm not trying to insult you here, so please don't take it that way, but I'd never leave my wife dependent on the kindness of strangers.

Like I say, maybe it's different in England.

--
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.

Re:Maybe it's different in England by tiled_rainbows · 2004-03-04 02:44 · Score: 2, Insightful

"I'd never ask my wife to stand on the side of a US interstate with the hood up"

Well, no, not if I was in the car, too. I'd probably and stand there with her for a bit, before suggesting we close the bonnet, find a pub and call the AA (like your AAA, not like your AA) from there.

Seriously, though, I wasn't saying it was necessarily the best idea in the world, but she was just saying that in those cases when she was stranded at the side of the road with no-one to come to her aid, then she'd appreciate being able to raise the bonnet, if only for purely symbolic reasons.

I don't know if there are fewer serial killers/rapists/whatever in England than in the US, but, based on my limited knowledge of US culture (mainly informed by Hollywood), I think there might be a greater fear of them over your side of the pond.

--

evil math within Nature's Cubic Creation!
Re:Maybe it's different in England by pommiekiwifruit · 2004-03-04 02:53 · Score: 1

I don't know if there are fewer serial killers/rapists/whatever in England than in the US,
I read somewhere :-) an estimate of about 12 active serial killers at any one time in the US, but hey, that's less than one per state!
Re:Maybe it's different in England by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:53 · Score: 0

That's what cell phones are for... I'm not trying to insult you here, so please don't take it that way, but I'd never leave my wife dependent on the kindness of strangers.

My wives never leave the harem, solves the problem.
Re:Maybe it's different in England by dsoltesz · 2004-03-04 02:57 · Score: 1

Putting the hood up is more than just a distress signal - it makes the stranded car more visible to other drivers on the highway and lets them know there may be a person wandering around the stranded vehicle (replacing a blow-out for example). Drivers know to pay attention and steer clear if possible and give the stranded car a safety buffer. It also gives the highway patrol a strong signal something is wrong and assistance is needed.
Why would I stand by my car waiting patiently for who-hell-knows-who? I wouldn't - if I'm not actually doing something to fix my car, I'd be inside it with the doors locked, on my cell if I can get a signal, waiting for the tow truck, my husband, a trooper, or whomever I'm expecting to show up and give me a hand.
Having my hood up is not what makes me a target - creeps are going to stop either way.
Re:Maybe it's different in England by akadruid · 2004-03-04 03:01 · Score: 1

It depends on the area, but yes, it is different over here.
I've never had any problems myself, but I am 6'2" well built male, and in the UK I have never even seen a real gun that was not firmly attached to a member of the police or the armed forces. The bulk of the UK has a much higher population density than the US too - so there are normally more people around in a given area.

I always carry at least jump leads, a tow rope, a small toolkit and big torch. I've used some or all the above to help out stranded male and female strangers on major roads or well lit housing areas, as well as car parks - but always politely asking first if they want help.

Any sane person uses their RAC or AA card instead though.

--
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing; those who count the votes decide everything." (attrib. Joseph Stalin)
Re:Maybe it's different in England by AlecC · 2004-03-04 03:15 · Score: 5, Interesting

I'd be inside it with the doors locked

Current advice in Britain is not to wait inside your car if the weather permits because of the remarkably high chance of getting shunted - hard - by another vehicle. You should get out of the vehicle and as far from the road as possible (e.g. behind the crash barrier). Basically, your chance of getting hit by a massive truck is much greater than your chance of a bad guy spotting you and stopping. I can't remember the fraction of accidents involving breakdowns on the side of the road, but I remember being startled by it. Emergency services now park their vehicle about 20 yards behind the breakdown to ensure that, if there is a hit, it is the empty emergency service van that gets hit. Even so, and despite their being covered with flashing lights, they still get hit.

You need a sense of priorities. Outside know "no go" areas, ordinary "innocent" traffic is a far greater danger than muggers, serial killers etc.

--
Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
Re:Maybe it's different in England by ichimunki · 2004-03-04 03:20 · Score: 2, Insightful

based on my limited knowledge of US culture (mainly informed by Hollywood), I think there might be a greater fear of them over your side of the pond.

Greater fear, yes. Greater risk? Maybe not so much. Probably what is fair to say about both sides of the Atlantic is that we all spend too much time worrying about things that have very low probabilities but are shocking, rather than worrying about more realistic and common dangers that we have more control over.

In any case, I don't have a car (by choice, you can't imagine how much money I save). So I guess I'll have to wait for the girls to make a bike where the gears are all encased in metal and where the seats come in different colors to match my riding gloves before I can get in on the smugness and macho superiority trip.

--
I do not have a signature
Re:Maybe it's different in England by FuzzyBad-Mofo · 2004-03-04 03:52 · Score: 0, Troll

Now I'm curious, do the English have more than their share of poor drivers, or just a large number of psychotic individuals who will intentionally ram cars parked along the road?
Re:Maybe it's different in England by Holi · 2004-03-04 04:09 · Score: 1

I think it has more to do with narrower or no breakdown lanes.

--
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
Re:Maybe it's different in England by rkww · 2004-03-04 04:12 · Score: 5, Interesting

You need a sense of priorities.
The Automobile Association (AA) - one of the UK's major roadside assistance organisations - has the following advice:
"There is a perception that a 'lone female' is at risk of being attacked on a motorway hard shoulder. Research shows that the risk of being hit by another vehicle is much greater."
Re:Maybe it's different in England by SlamMan · 2004-03-04 04:16 · Score: 1

Thats because in America, we have shoulders on our roads, instead of barely the width of 2 cars.

--
Mod point free since 2001
Re:Maybe it's different in England by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:49 · Score: 0

True. You also have a country that's more than 800 miles across, so you can hardly complain to us about having to squeeze things into less space.
Re:Maybe it's different in England by haroldK · 2004-03-04 05:10 · Score: 2, Interesting

I was taught in driver's ed that when stalled on the side of the road and needing assistance, you are to open the hood and the trunklid as well as turning on the hazards. I don't know about your state, but police officers drive around on public roads and are supposed to help those in need.

In Minnesota, we also have the added benefit of "Highway Helpers." These folks drive around in bright green state-owned trucks with gasoline and various other things. They also notice people with the hood and trunk open.

Also, not everybody who can afford a car can afford a cell phone. Obviously, if this car coems to market, those unable to afford a cell phone will not be able to afford this car, but hoods that aren't openable by the user aren't a good idea in general.

The folks at Volvo who came up with this idea thought it was great, but they don't appear to realize that if you've got a hood, that doesn't mean you have to open it. You can still relocate the wiper fluid fill by the gas while leaving the hood accessable.
Re:Maybe it's different in England by josh_freeman · 2004-03-04 05:11 · Score: 1

It depends on where you are. I'm from the South, and you pretty much can count on someone stopping pretty quick if you have a problem, provided you're outside the city limits. Not saying that I would always TRUST who stops, but you can count on SOMEONE stopping. I'll generally try to stop for someone who obviously has a car problem, especially if it's a woman with small children. Leaving them on the side of the road would just be dangerous (I've seen, and nearly been involved in, bad wrecks on the side of the road)

That being said, when I was driving out West once, we stopped to help a lady that was pulling a trailer, and the brakes were starting to catch fire since they had locked. The people in the car with us, who were from the area, were completely flabbergasted that we would do that.
Re:Maybe it's different in England by Detritus · 2004-03-04 05:28 · Score: 1

That doesn't stop our ingenious drivers from attempting to pass on the shoulder, hitting any stopped vehicles found in their path.

--
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Re:Maybe it's different in England by comedian23 · 2004-03-04 05:29 · Score: 1

Someone mod parent up please. Actual _useful_ information on slashdot! I didn't know this at all so I for one am glad I read this article.

-Comedian
Re:Maybe it's different in England by Afty0r · 2004-03-04 05:41 · Score: 1

I'd never ask my wife to stand on the side of a US interstate with the hood up, waiting for who-the-hell-knows to stop... that's a recipe for disaster in some parts of the country.

I don't think anyone would "ask" their wife, but this sort of thing isn't done by choice - and your quote makes it sound like you live in a sad, sad world.
Re:Maybe it's different in England by slipgun · 2004-03-04 05:42 · Score: 5, Funny

Thats because in America, we have shoulders on our roads, instead of barely the width of 2 cars.

English roads are generally designed with steering-wheels in mind.

--
SpamNet - a spam blocker that really works
Re:Maybe it's different in England by Pig+Hogger · 2004-03-04 06:28 · Score: 1

In any case, I don't have a car (by choice, you can't imagine how much money I save). So I guess I'll have to wait for the girls to make a bike where the gears are all encased in metal and where the seats come in different colors to match my riding gloves before I can get in on the smugness and macho superiority trip.
When you're on yhour bike, the girls thick sweet fuck-all about your matching gloves and bicycle seat. All they care about is your ass in those lycra pants.
Re:Maybe it's different in England by B3ryllium · 2004-03-04 06:30 · Score: 2, Insightful

Hmm, I sense wise description of how most people treat open source in that final paragraph ...
Re:Maybe it's different in England by Mashiki · 2004-03-04 07:00 · Score: 1

By the above post, the majority haven't quite figured out how to use them yet.

Flashing lights, stopped cars, cops standing around.
*crunch* Another 20,000GBP cruiser toasted.

--
Om, nomnomnom...
Re:Maybe it's different in England by sawmillnc · 2004-03-04 07:25 · Score: 2, Funny

Yeah..haven't you English seen the "The Hitcher" or "The Road Warrior" American highways are swarming with those type of people...On a parallel universe tangent, I would like to see Mel Gibson do an amalgam movie that incorporated "The Passion of Christ", "Beyond Thunder Dome", "The Hitcher" and finally " Braveheart"
Re:Maybe it's different in England by mpe · 2004-03-04 08:25 · Score: 1

Why would I stand by my car waiting patiently for who-hell-knows-who? I wouldn't - if I'm not actually doing something to fix my car, I'd be inside it with the doors locked, on my cell if I can get a signal, waiting for the tow truck, my husband, a trooper, or whomever I'm expecting to show up and give me a hand.

Unless you have managed to get your car completly off the road being inside may well be the most dangerous place.
Re:Maybe it's different in England by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 08:30 · Score: 0

"There is a perception that a 'lone female' is at risk of being attacked on a motorway hard shoulder.

A follow on from the popular perception that women are more likely to be attacked in all places. When it reality it's actaully the case than men are between 2 and 20 times more likely to be attacked than women.

"There is a perception that a 'lone female' is at risk of being attacked on a motorway hard shoulder.

With being hit by a vehicle being far more likely to seriously injure or kill than any sort of personal attack too.
Re:Maybe it's different in England by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 09:10 · Score: 0

the road warrior takes place in australia fucknut
Re:Maybe it's different in England by SnappleMaster · 2004-03-04 10:54 · Score: 1

Cars have hazard lights for a reason. :)

I don't know why but nobody in my neck of the woods (Seattle) knows what hazard lights are for. They don't know what turn signals are for either. I guess it's just too complex.

--
Be happy. Nothing else matters.
Re:Maybe it's different in England by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 11:11 · Score: 0

Yes, in England also you would prefer not to travel by train, because they collide so often.

Also you wouldn't like to cross two way streets, because you would always be lokking into the opposite direction.
Re:Maybe it's different in England by FuzzyBad-Mofo · 2004-03-04 12:32 · Score: 1

Troll? I was asking a serious question based on the parent's comments. Jeez, some people are sensitive!
Re:Maybe it's different in England by arkane1234 · 2004-03-04 13:00 · Score: 1

That's what cell phones are for...

*ducks for cover* Oh dear lord, don't rile up the anti-cellphone nazis on this thread...

--
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
Re:Maybe it's different in England by op00to · 2004-03-04 14:07 · Score: 1

It's a pity that the English driver was designed with absolutely nothing in his mind.
Re:Maybe it's different in England by SlamMan · 2004-03-04 16:18 · Score: 1

I thought it was more based on the original ages of your roads being from some 200 years before we were a country.

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Mod point free since 2001
Re:Maybe it's different in England by dsoltesz · 2004-03-04 16:34 · Score: 1

That's fine... unless of course my alternator/battery went bad and there's no juice.
Re:Maybe it's different in England by dsoltesz · 2004-03-04 16:50 · Score: 1

That's an excellent point - I certainly didn't picture a narrow shouldered highway (as the Europeans seem to have). The vision I had of myself in this scenario was out on the highway at night, in the middle of BFE where I could pull not only over to the nice wide shoulder, but even into the dirt where I'd be several feet from the road. If I worried about getting clipped while sitting in my vehicle in this situation, I'd never leave the basement because frankly, I'd also have to believe a car might come through my living room window at any moment.
What action to take is most likely totally dependent on where you are, who you are, what time of day it is, etc. Daytime, nice weather, I'll find a comfy rock to sit on and have a smoke... night time/bad weather (or near the U.S./Mex border), I'm in my locked truck waiting patiently. Narrow shoulder, busy highway, I'm probably standing off the highway... etc. ad nauseum.
Re:Maybe it's different in England by drinkypoo · 2004-03-15 06:10 · Score: 1

From what I understand they're generally designed with sheep in mind, which is to say you don't want them to hurt their darling little feet or hooves or whatever as they cross it, so it should be as little like a road as possible.
With that said, I love driving on twisty, torn-up roads, but I prefer them to be of a width where two vehicles can pass abreast (if they had breasts) without at least one having its tyres leave the tarmac, thank you.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by joib · 2004-03-04 02:36 · Score: 1, Funny

Maybe you're supposed to use the old russian trick of making a bonfire under the engine? ;-)

Audi is already doing it by jcroll · 2004-03-04 02:36 · Score: 1

So I'm walking my dog one morning, and I see my neighbor has Joe's Garage tow truck in her driveway, and she and the mechanic are standing infront of her brand new Audi, staring defeated into the open hood compartment.

"What's up?" I say.

"It wont start and we can't find the battery" says my neighbor.

"What in hell kinda car is this" says the mechanic.

So I walk over there to see what it looks like under the hood. I was dumbfounded to see everything had a plastic shield over it. Nothing was exposed. It was like there was a hood under the hood.

I later learned that Audis are NEVER to be worked on by ANYONE unless they are an Audi Authorized Repair Mechanic. And apparently, day one of Audi repair school is how to get those darn plastic shields off (without breaking them).

Apparently, these shields have interlock switches on them. If one is removed, it sends a signal to a snitch computer. Only an Audi mechanic knows how to clear the snitch computer. If there is ever an uncleared snitch signal, BYE BYE WARRANTY.

"Oh, you threw a rod and need a new engine? But you pulled a shield off on your own because you wanted to jumpstart your car one morning? Well, too bad shucka, cause you payin for your own motor now!"

Audi's motivation is understandable, but the extreme they went to is condescending. Sure they want to protect their warranty, but all other manufacturers have been honoring their warranties since the dawn of automotive without locking the customer away from their cars innards.

Maybe Audi is incapable of manufacturing a car using common technologies readily understandable by the rest of the automotive community?

And from a capitalist point of view, this prevents local mechanics who know what they are doing from performing routine maintenance on these cars. Need an oil change? Gotta go to the Audi dealer. Smack of a trust perhaps?

I'd never buy an Audi or Volvo anyway, but my Ford is just the opposite. Not only do I have full access to the innards under the hood, but routine end user maintenance things are clearly labeled in raised yellow letters.

Re:Audi is already doing it by jorlando · 2004-03-04 02:49 · Score: 1

There is a oil change lamp that can be set off only at an Audi authorized center and few mechanical shops.

You can't do a oil change at some gas station, you must go to the speacialized centers and probably pay a hefty bill besides the oil change for they service.

I really don't know if an Audi owner don't care, since the car is already very expensive or they care but just accept it...
Re:Audi is already doing it by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:49 · Score: 0

Considering that Volvo is a division of the Ford Motor Company (check out ford.com), you may want to re-think your last statement.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Lumpy · 2004-03-04 02:37 · Score: 1

if you change your software in the modern vehicle you will produce more bhp. they are doing something silly, like reducing exaust emissions. I know, a stupid thing to do when Bhp is at stake but you cant tell these engineers anything these days.

plus are you telling me that the two engines are 100% identical in every way? displacement is 100% identical? the only difference is fuel injection and the computerised controls? I'm betting not.

--
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.

Not really an issue by Steffan · 2004-03-04 02:37 · Score: 1

"Great, so you can pay $40+ (USD) for an oilchange, along with god knows what a dealer charges for the rest of the routine maintence."

Actually, my last two cars have included routine maintenance with the price of the car. All oil changes and everything else for 4 years / 50k miles. (~80,000 km)
Also, the oil change intervals have gone from 10k miles to 15k miles (16k - 24k km) on my current vehicle.
For everyone who doubts that this is any good for the engine. Well...it's leased. If the engine dies, it's not *my* problem. It'll be off lease while still under warranty.
I think this is the future of internal combusion vehicles, at least. Longer warranties with ever-longer service intervals.
It's not inconceivable that a car such as this might only need oil changes at 20,000 miles, at the same time it would need other major service work as well.

From the article by Mycroft_514 · 2004-03-04 02:40 · Score: 1

Volvo is owned by Ford. This is the same company that designed an engine that blew up on the highway for me at 70mph. I had maybe 20 seconds warning via dashboard lights, before the engine was toast.

So, maybe like that problem, they figure that all repairs are going to be replacement engines?

I Was a Beta Tester by NaCl · 2004-03-04 02:42 · Score: 1

Actually, Ford already did this to me. Back in 1994, I had a Ford Escort and was planning a trip of 1k km, so I decided that was a good idea to do a check-up on a Ford Dealer, just to be safe.

What was my surprise, when after 500 km, stopping in a gas station, the hood simply didn't open! Needless to say, that was my last Ford.

--
I shot the sheriff

Re:I Was a Beta Tester by pclminion · 2004-03-04 05:39 · Score: 1

What was my surprise, when after 500 km, stopping in a gas station, the hood simply didn't open! Needless to say, that was my last Ford.
Didn't open didn't open? Or didn't open because you didn't know about the locking lever near the hood latch that you have to press upward in order to disengage the latch?
Please tell me you didn't get rid of your car because you didn't even bother reading the manual...

May as well be by Sabalon · 2004-03-04 02:42 · Score: 1

I just bought a 2004 model car. I opened the hood to look. It was all nice and clean and crammed in there. Other than the fluids, I don't think I could do something even if I knew what I was doing.

The car that this one replaced needed a speed sensor replaced. You could not do that without either a "special tool" or dropping half the exhaust system...all so you could get at a 10mm bolt to replace the sensor.

I'm beginning to think they build the engine and then as it goes down the assembly line they build the car around the engine!

Re:May as well be by Buran · 2004-03-04 06:54 · Score: 1

VW does. This is why many components in the engine bay are hard to get to (changing a headlight bulb i n the 4th-generation Golf/Jetta requires small, nimble hands if you don't take the entire headlight assembly off, which requires taking the front bumper and grille off.) Fortunately, I have small hands and know how to do all that. Even more fortunately, I've gotten good at replacing the bulbs without taking the lights out.

--
i am a soviet space shuttle

Slashdotters miss the point again -- film at 11 by decsnake · 2004-03-04 02:42 · Score: 1

Manufacturers dont want you to be able to fix your own car. They want to lock you into taking it to the dealer for ALL maintainence and repairs. How do they do that? Not by welding the hood on, because as one early poster pointed out, thats easy to fix with a grinder or plasma cutter. They do it with SOFTWARE. Closed source software where even the specifications of the external interfaces are kept secret. All of the major subsystems and many of the minor ones on a modern vehicle are microprocessor controlled. Without documented interfaces to these subsystems independent repair shops will cease to exist. What do you suppose the dealers hourly labor rate will be once there's no independent repair shops?

Men can have ponytails too. by hpulley · 2004-03-04 02:42 · Score: 4, Interesting

I'm a man and wore a ponytail for about 8 years or so and I can say that it did get in the way a little when putting my head against the headrest -- a topknot worked fine but doesn't suit me most of the time... Most cars don't put your head close enough to the headrest that this matters (or that they actually prevent whiplash) but in cars like Volvos where they are close, it does matter.

--
$#!^ happens, but why does it always have to happen to me???

Re:Men can have ponytails too. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:37 · Score: 0

Wow Steven Stegal posts on /.!
Re:Men can have ponytails too. by ttys00 · 2004-03-04 11:40 · Score: 1

I'm not sure about Volvos sold in America, but in Australia they have horizontal splits in the headrests big enough to put a ponytail or backwards hat in. My 1980 Volvo (240 wagon) has them, so it's not a new feature.
Re:Men can have ponytails too. by hpulley · 2004-03-05 03:24 · Score: 1

I remember the slatted headrests -- pretty sure they were in the '76, '81 and '82 Volvos but even in 240s I think they disappeared in the late models. They had covers you could remove. The slats were so you could see them while doing shoulder checks but they would allow pass-thru as well. Sadly, they have long left the Volvos at least as sold in north america. Solid, mostly leather covered, headrests are what you get now though the advanced whiplash protection sounds good.

--
$#!^ happens, but why does it always have to happen to me???

Designed by Women, for Women by leenoble_uk · 2004-03-04 02:42 · Score: 1

But does it have Rack and Peanut steering?

Re:Designed by Women, for Women by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-14 17:48 · Score: 0

Fuck off sexist motherfucker.

Structural component by advocate_one · 2004-03-04 02:43 · Score: 1

This now means that the hood can now become a true structural component and form part of the crushable structure for the protection of the passengers. Beforehand, the car would have to rely heavily on the two front sides of the car for the crushable elements leaving it vulnerable to a central impact with a large bollard which could drive the engine back into the passenger compartment with relatively very little energy absorbtion into the crush zones.

--
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.

Re:Welded shut in a car designed by and for women. by Bendebecker · 2004-03-04 02:45 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Linux? Children use Linux. Real men use BSD!

--
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Zangief · 2004-03-04 02:45 · Score: 1

One EMP burst and every automobile that has an Engine Control Computer within range of the EMP is dead.

Yeah, those pesky Terran Science Vessels stop the traffic whenever they want. Who do they tnink they are? And if you start yto walk to your job, they irradiate you, and you die.

AFAIK, EMPs aren't easy to produce, but on a nuclear scenario, it could still be a problem

Women... by i_am_syco · 2004-03-04 02:45 · Score: 1

This car was designed for women who are looking for aesthetic rather than the ability to fix the car. If a woman knows how to dig around under a car's hood, she probably wouldn't be too inclined to buy this overly feminine car (not trying to discriminate, just saying).

Porsche Boxster anyone? by OlivierB · 2004-03-04 02:46 · Score: 3, Interesting

For the richest ones out there. Buyingg a POrsche Boxster is surely not the best choice if you want to get a crowd when opening the bonnet. The ONLY thing you can see is the Oil jauge! The engine in placed in the center of the car (unlike 911s whose engines are at the back end). This also means that you cannot easily make some parts replacements yourself. The best thing for sealed bonnets/ difficult to access engines is not about warranties for the manufacturers but for the servifce they charge. That's right changing the dyno in a Porsche boxster can only be done by a dealer as you have to lower the WHOLE engine. That means a lot of billable hours for one single part. Thank god Porsches are the most reliable sport cars out there.

--
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity

Re:Porsche Boxster anyone? by MKalus · 2004-03-04 03:05 · Score: 3, Insightful

Well,

if you have the money for a luxury car then you should also have the money to pay for repairs, no?

--
If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
Re:Porsche Boxster anyone? by merdark · 2004-03-04 03:44 · Score: 1

Maybe he saved up for years and bought a USED one. No?
Re:Porsche Boxster anyone? by lucifuge31337 · 2004-03-04 03:48 · Score: 3, Informative

Boxters aren't exactly expensive in comparision to real Porsches (real meaning 911s). Furthermore, 911's are exactly a treat to work on. They have most of the same issues with accessing anything.

Fortunately, they both have 2 things going for them:

1.) The engine placement is not to screw the owner. It is there because it makes the weight of the vehicle properly balanced for suspension perfoemnce.
2.) It's not actually all THAT had to drop the motors in these things. While I've never dropped the motor in the Boxter, I've done sone on 911's and VW Beetles (the old body style) more times than I can count (remember, the beetle is designed after the 911, and is very similar in construction), I'm told they are much the same. Your' looking at a couple of harnesses, and about 6 bolts. If you have a proper transmission style jack, it's not really a big deal. Anyone without these facilities (or the desire to get them) probably doesn't need to be monkeying around with their engine to begin with.

And most importantly, this really has little to do with the article. The Volvo concept car mentioned in it is really a totally different animal with different design goals in mind.

--
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
Re:Porsche Boxster anyone? by MKalus · 2004-03-04 04:04 · Score: 1

Then he obviously didn't do his homework.

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If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
Re:Porsche Boxster anyone? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:11 · Score: 0

The boxster is like that for space issues. Since a mid engine car handles best, the engine is in the middle of the car. When the engine is like that it's rather hard to service. So, instead of sacrificing stiffness, they said all work has to be done from below. If you can't reach that it's about 6 bolts to drop the engine and takes about an hour.
Re:Porsche Boxster anyone? by boinger · 2004-03-04 04:32 · Score: 1

*cough*
Excuse me, but the Beetle is most certainly not "designed after the 911"!
The Porsche 911 was deisgned after the Porsche 356 which was designed by the same man (Ferdinand Porsche) who designed the Beetle.
How could the Beetle, a car first prototyped in 1933, be "designed after" a car from the 70s?

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Send your friends messages of love at fuck-you.org
Re:Porsche Boxster anyone? by lucifuge31337 · 2004-03-04 04:41 · Score: 1

My bad, I had some of my facts reversed. It's been a while.

Of course, that hardly has anything at all to do with my point. But to be picky, the 911 is NOT "a car from the 70s." The first 911 was produced in 1964.

--
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
Re:Porsche Boxster anyone? by boinger · 2004-03-04 04:51 · Score: 1

I know - just being a bastard :)
"Car from the 70s" makes it sound worse.
(911s are, honestly, amazing cars. Too bad they fucked them up with water a few years back, though :()

--
Send your friends messages of love at fuck-you.org
Re:Porsche Boxster anyone? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:56 · Score: 0

Actually, the Boxster engine can also be accessed from the top - you open the droptop part way and you can remove the carpeted engine cover easily. This is how you change the air filter, for example.

All the regular maintenance items are easily accessible without going near the engine - dipstick, oil filler and coolant filler are in the rear trunk - battery and windshield washer fluid are in the front trunk.

And a Boxster has the longest dipstick I have ever seen on a car. :P

Maintenance on Boxster's isn't cheap, though - for example an oil change requires 9 (yes, 9) quarts of full synthetic, which isn't that cheap to start with. But, if you can change the oil on a Ford, you can change the oil on a Boxster.

Having said that, the oil change intervals on a Boxster are 15000 miles. Or 7500 if you do "severe service" i.e. racing, or living in the desert as I do.

My opinion is that if you can't afford proper maintenance, you can't afford the car. Simple as that. Same as if you can only afford to lease the car and buying it would make the payments too big - you can't afford it either.
Re:Porsche Boxster anyone? by lucifuge31337 · 2004-03-04 05:00 · Score: 1

As long as you know you're a bastard :)

And I'll defintiely agree - water bad.

--
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
Re:Porsche Boxster anyone? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 06:55 · Score: 0

The MGF also has a mid mounted engine that is mostly hidden (there is a small flap at the front of the boot that yets you get at the oil and water.
Re:Porsche Boxster anyone? by dfung · 2004-03-04 07:12 · Score: 1

I had a friend who purchased one of the very first Boxsters to arrive in the Silicon Valley. I went with a friend to visit it a couple of weeks after he got it.

He mentioned that the early production was really showing a lot of firmware bugs, and a really annoying design flaw.

After he had it a couple of days, he parked in his garage turned it off, got out and noticed that the little LCD annunciator panel in the bottom of the dash didn't turn off. He didn't think much about it at the time, but, of course, the battery was dead the next day.

No big deal, right? Wrongo. To charge the battery, you need to open the front hood. And to do so, you push the *electrically operated* hood release. Which doesn't work because you don't have electricity. That's OK, right? There must be a cable you can pull somewhere. Wrong again buddy, since the car is relatively "welded shut" (actually, from a theft standpoint, it would be pretty stupid if there was something like that to pull on).

The dealership didn't know much about these brand new cars yet, but they did already know about the problem and gave him a battery trickle charger that plugs into the cigarette lighter socket. I guess you could even charge the battery with it, but even if you're not that patient, it is enough juice to open the front hood. I believe a charger of this sort is standard equipment in the Boxter tool kit these days.
Re:Porsche Boxster anyone? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 09:52 · Score: 0

Actually, there *is* a cable you can pull, you just have to know where to look for it. (No, I don't know where to look either) :)

On later Boxsters, they actually put something in the driver's footwell to allow this more easily.

The trickle chargers are not standard on new Boxsters, but they are a recommended accessory if your Boxster is not a daily driver.
Re:Porsche Boxster anyone? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 15:32 · Score: 0

I dunno, my first-generation 1997 Boxster has a cable-actuated hood release.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by sandbagger · 2004-03-04 02:47 · Score: 1

Hi:

Remember what happened on that new re-make of Battlestar Galactica! The ships with the linked computer and engine systems shut down and were sitting daggits.

Nope. I'm going to stick with my old carbueretted rusty but trusty MOPAR--It's Cylon-proof!

--
---- The above post was generated by the Turing Institute. Maybe.

Dukes of Hazard by johns713 · 2004-03-04 02:47 · Score: 2, Funny

Remember The General Lee? The Duke boys had it's doors wielded shut. And it worked well for them. Who's to say that having a hold wielded shut won't work for everyone else. I say it is worth a try as long as I can slide across the hood before doing a get away. YEEE HAAWWW!!!

Rolls-Royce by GuyFawkes · 2004-03-04 02:48 · Score: 2, Informative

When they started out the bonnet (hood) WAS locked shut, and only a Rolls Royce engineer (not mechanic) could open it.

As to all the predictable comments about "what if the big end blows etc" people had the same concerns way back then, and the response from Rolls?
"Rolls Royce motor cars do not break down"

and there was of course a lot of truth in that comment, they were fiednishly expensive but they were genuinely far more robust than the average car of the day, so /.ers may need to consider the marketing aspect here, Vulva are probably merely on a PRbunny trip about quality and exclusivity rather than making any machanical MTBF type statements.

Of course Rolls Royce is no longer english, it was sold to the germans, and quite apart from the new rollers not being rollers any more and being quite hideous, along with the change of ownership all the old paperwork and marketing guff will have moved office... now who really owns vulva nowadays?

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http://slashdot.org/~GuyFawkes/journal

People hate maintenance by hpulley · 2004-03-04 02:49 · Score: 1

Overall, people hate maintenance. They don't want to check the fluids in their car, they don't want to clean out the lint trap in the dryer, they certainly don't want to replace the furnace filter and humidifier pad. Hackers and hotrodders aside, most don't want to open their computer cases or car hoods. They want to turn them on and use them. Not just women, most everyone but modders really would like something they can just use out of the box forever.

Manufacturers of course, would like one-day throw-away tablet PCs to read the newspaper and disposable cars (if they haven't provided them to us already). But people would like something that lasts a long time and doesn't require them to own any tools or roll up their sleeves if possible.

--
$#!^ happens, but why does it always have to happen to me???

Ponytail space: good Top-hinged doors: not so good by EnglishTim · 2004-03-04 02:51 · Score: 1

I like the ponytail gaps in the headrests idea - very useful. However, I'd have thought the door folding upwards and outwards would be a right pain when you're parking in a car park and the bay isn't very wide - they'll be a lot harder to squeeze out of.

Next up: weld the fuel cap shut. by ballpoint · 2004-03-04 02:51 · Score: 1

Some cars are so energy efficient and some drivers drive so little kilometers (note: this is a situation that only occurs in Europe) that they need to fill up only once a year.

3 l/100km, 1500 km/yr, 50 l tank.

When I was young one of our cars had only 5000km after three years. It consumed more than 3 l/100km back then, though.

--
Flourescent (adj): smelling like ground wheat.

Seat pads attached by *magnets*? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:51 · Score: 0

Watch hordes of angry women storm Volvo because there credit cards were damaged by the magnetic seat pads.

Obvious naming alert:
The new Volvo Vulva, designed for women.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by geoffspear · 2004-03-04 02:53 · Score: 1

Yeah, but why would you want to reduce emissions? Everyone knows that any study saying auto emissions are bad for the environment is not "sound science" and that we need more research.

--
Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by 74nova · 2004-03-04 02:53 · Score: 1

90%? im have some trouble believing that... id believe 90% of the emissions or fuel efficiency improvements are from electronics, but not hp. you mean to tell me that exhaust, head, cam, and intake design have only been responsible for 10% of the improvements? BS

99% of statistics are made up on the spot

--
use your turn signal! you people act like it's divulging information to the enemy

parents could use removable seats by hpulley · 2004-03-04 02:53 · Score: 2, Insightful

Kids are crawling, walking, talking, oozing mess machines so parents could sure use washable seat covers. Vinyl seats were good for some things!

--
$#!^ happens, but why does it always have to happen to me???

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by lobsterGun · 2004-03-04 02:53 · Score: 1

I guess I'm going have to go with the other posters on this one.

You need not worry about the EMP's affect ony your cars engine. When that orbital thermonuclear bomb detonates, the EMP arcing off your tin foil hat will probably kill you.

BS by Moraelin · 2004-03-04 02:53 · Score: 1

I'm not a woman either, but I _don't_ want to fix my own car, TV, washing machine, etc. If you're the kind of person who'd ask for that: I don't want to fix _yours_ either. (And since the topic does mention OSS, I'll do the horribly non-slashdot thing and say: I don't want to fix your code either.)

The whole closed economy idea where you do everything by yourself went out of fashion a century ago. In fact, debatably it was slowly going out of fashion already around the year 8000 BC. People were already divided into people who can plough the fields, people who can build a fortress, people who know how to operate the water supply, people who can make or fix a bronze spear, people who can fight, etc.

Why? Because it's more efficient that way. So you might as well grow out of being the alpha caveman, and finally get on with living in the 21'st century. The idea nowadays is: specialization. Live with it.

You're going to do... what? Spend 20+ hours a month tweaking and fumbling on that stupid car engine (actually even more for some people), to avoid paying 50$ to a qualified mechanic? Unless you're paid less than 2.5$ per hour, does it even count as saving anything? Either way, I don't know about you, but my time is more valuable than that.

The whole thing is often just a sad exercise in trying to look macho. In which case, you can step outside the whole "Real Men (TM) fix their own car" stupidity for a change. In fact, step outside the whole idea that you have to prove your manhood/mad skillz/whatever to anyone.

Do something better with your time. Read a book. Watch a movie. Or do a couple of hours overtime to pay for that car repair, and you'll still have a lot more time left than if you fixed everything yourself.

I can almost hear some people's Pavlov reflex going "waah, but if I don't fix my own computer/car/whatever _and_ those of every single neighbour, they'll no longer think I'm an uber-skilled god." Well, rest assured that most likely they don't anyway. They just think you're someone to take advantage of.

No sexism meant, but rest assured that that goes double for the female neighbours. Noone'll think "woo, he's so sexy when he fixes my computer or car. I want to have his babies." Sorry to crush your geeky wet dreams, but you can forget about that. Women are smarter than that.

--
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.

Re:BS by jdgeorge · 2004-03-04 04:36 · Score: 1

Okay, a troll like this deserves a reply.

I'm not a woman either,

Of course not; women aren't as lazy as what you go on to describe:
...but I _don't_ want to fix my own car, TV, washing machine, etc. If you're the kind of person who'd ask for that: I don't want to fix _yours_ either. (And since the topic does mention OSS, I'll do the horribly non-slashdot thing and say: I don't want to fix your code either.)

Err... personal attack. First mark of a quality troll.

The whole closed economy idea where you do everything by yourself went out of fashion a century ago. In fact, debatably it was slowly going out of fashion already around the year 8000 BC. People were already divided into people who can plough the fields, people who can build a fortress, people who know how to operate the water supply, people who can make or fix a bronze spear, people who can fight, etc.

Actually, the so-called "early Bronze age" in Europe began ~3000-2500 BC, so your "people who can make or fix a bronze spear" is an anachronism by more than 5 thousand years. If we're going to completely ignore the course of history, we replace that with "the people who can make or fix a fuel injector." That would sound more impressive, don't you think?

Why? Because it's more efficient that way. So you might as well grow out of being the alpha caveman, and finally get on with living in the 21'st century. The idea nowadays is: specialization. Live with it.

Err... this guy was talking about automobiles. My recollection is that cavemen did not have automobiles. Oh, wait, sorry... forgot about the previous point, we've decided that we had fuel injectors 10,000 years ago.

You're going to do... what? Spend 20+ hours a month tweaking and fumbling on that stupid car engine (actually even more for some people), to avoid paying 50$ to a qualified mechanic? Unless you're paid less than 2.5$ per hour, does it even count as saving anything? Either way, I don't know about you, but my time is more valuable than that.

Okay, hate to nitpick, but in the US, the convention is to write the monetary symbol immediately before the number. (Except for cents, of course.) So, fifty dollars is written $50. Oh, I should also mention that the fractional dollar amounts are, by convention, always written with two decimal places, so two dollars and fifty cents is written $2.50.

Also, most repairs one can do without a lot of extra equipment don't take very long. I can change an air filter, for example, in less than 5 minutes, change spark plugs in less than an hour... and I really don't know much about cars. Not to say that it wouldn't take you 20 or more hours to do these things, but most people I know really are much faster than that.

The whole thing is often just a sad exercise in trying to look macho. In which case, you can step outside the whole "Real Men (TM) fix their own car" stupidity for a change. In fact, step outside the whole idea that you have to prove your manhood/mad skillz/whatever to anyone.

Ahem... apparently you never heard that "every man ought to be a macho, macho man". This point doesn't lend verisimilitude to your first assertion that you are not a woman.

Do something better with your time. Read a book. Watch a movie. Or do a couple of hours overtime to pay for that car repair, and you'll still have a lot more time left than if you fixed everything yourself.

Watching a movie is "something better" than fixing your car? Let us return to the point about dollars per hour. How much value do you anticipate people would gain from watching a movie? Are you saying this is more than they gain from the experience of learning something of how an automobile works and fixing their cars?

I can almost hear some people's Pavlov reflex going "waah, but if I don't fix my own computer/car/whatever _and_ those of every single neighbour, t
Re:BS by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:55 · Score: 0

Okay, hate to nitpick, but
Wrong! You love to nitpick.
Re:BS by Moraelin · 2004-03-04 06:10 · Score: 1

Ahh... A troll. How cute. Mommy, can we keep him?

So instead of answering the actual points, you go onto... what? Nitpicking like whether the $ sign goes before or after the number, and whether it should be written as 2.5 or 2.50? Plus playing the pretending-to-take-it-literally-just-to-seem-retar ded card?

E.g., by being the "alpha cavement", I explicitly meant the attitude and concept of making everything yourself, not that cavemen had cars. But understanding that would require some minimal comprehension skills, eh?

But let's move to your only points, in that sea of trolling:

Ahem... apparently you never heard that "every man ought to be a macho, macho man". This point doesn't lend verisimilitude to your first assertion that you are not a woman.

and

Of course, fixing the car, being more generally essential, is generally considered FAR more sexy than fixing the computer.

Dude... grow up. Get a life. If you actually think that anyone's going to consider you macho or sexy because you can fix a car... well, you're so far out of touch with reality, it's not even funny.

The whole concept of cars having _anything_ to do with being sexually attractive to women, was just a marketting plot from 50 years ago. No more. The car industry was more than happy to take the money of retards who actually thought that buying a Corvette compensates for having a small dick. They were even happier to have you believe that buying a crap quality car and having to fix it yourself every 20 miles, as was the standard back then, counted as macho. When in fact it was just getting shafted by those who sold you that crap.

Of course, in the meantime even the car industry has dropped that implication. In the meantime they discovered that it's more profitable to take the women's money too, than to keep playing the "cars are for men" card.

So you're stuck in... what? A fantasy world that only existed in advertising, a long time ago?

Grow Up. Step away from the crack pipe. Take a 12 step program. Whatever gets you back in touch with reality, really.

--
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Re:BS by jdgeorge · 2004-03-04 07:37 · Score: 1

Wrong! You love to nitpick.

Oh, well, yeah, guilty as charged. Though I though it was rather apparent that my "hate to nitpick" comment (along with the rest of the post) was rather tongue in cheek.
Re:BS by Tokerat · 2004-03-04 07:52 · Score: 1

I took my car to Jiffy Lube, not wanting to "fix it myself". The changed my oil and my transmission fluids...with the wrong kind. My transmission burnt up on the road. I tried to sue and it was thrown out of court, citing i couldn't "prove" if they had used the right fluid or not (funny, it worked perfectly until they did that, and the next day it wouldn't shift properly and then died up before I could get it home). I had to spend $1500 on a new transmission.

Now i change my own fluids. Havent' had a problem since. You can go ahread and live your spoon-fed life, but I LIKE to get my hands a little dirty every now and then and fix my car. That way, I know exactly what's being done to it.

By the way, the extra time the mechanic has to spend unscrewing the hood of your car or whatever he has to do, and the special Volvo training, tool, and license he'll have to get to do it means you're going to pay more. Enjoy, I have better things to spend my money on, like movies to enjoy or books to read after I've changed my oil and spark plugs.

--
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
Re:BS by jdgeorge · 2004-03-04 07:56 · Score: 1

Hey, mellow out, dude. Listen to some Village People. Have a sense of humour. Oh, and try not being so angry.

For the record, I believe that women do find the ability to help them (whether by helping with their cars, or other means) sexy. Really. Of course, I can provide no data to support this assertion other than my personal experience. Perhaps you have had the opposite experience, being unappreciated for your effort, but if so, I think that is an unfortunate exception, not the rule.
Re:BS by SnappleMaster · 2004-03-04 12:19 · Score: 1

Absolutely. I have done my own car maintenance in the past. (I once owned a Reliant that needed new valve stem seals every 6 months. I was too poor to get a new engine so I just cracked the head and replaced them myself. Cost around $10 for parts plus $10 for a gasket if I didn't feel like reusing the old one.)

But now that I'm all grown up my interests are elsewhere. It costs me about $30 to get an oil change at the Honda dealer on the CR-V. There is NO way that I could do that myself for "less". My time is worth a lot more to me, and I'm sure that the dealer is making less of a mess that I would in there.

--
Be happy. Nothing else matters.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Bendebecker · 2004-03-04 02:54 · Score: 2, Funny

Just wait to the Chryslus Highwayman comes out - no computer components and with brakes too! juts make sure you remember to keep a spare fuel cell controller in a sealed lead box. Never knwo when a vault dweller's decendent may need it...

--
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy

screw Volvo by WormholeFiend · 2004-03-04 02:54 · Score: 1

This fall, I'm buying a Mercedes Smart (prices are in $CDN):

http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/news,view.sp y? artid=21118&pg=1

Smart In Canada

In a somewhat surprising turn of events, Mercedes-Benz Canada has announced that it will begin to sell a pair of Smart city cars in Canada this fall.

The company had previously announced that it would begin to sell the six-year-old concept in 2005 with the launch of the ForFour sedan.

But dealers across the country will have the diesel-powered Smart ForTwo coupe and cabrio models in the early fall of this year, starting from $16,000 for the base model coupe and at less than $20,000 for the convertible.

The ForTwo cdi is a two-seater available in either a coupe or cabrio version, both of which are powered by an 0.8 litre inline-three with "state-of-the art" common rail diesel engine.

This tiny engine delivers 40 hp and 74 lb.-ft. of torque and can take the tiny (it's only 2.5 metres long) car to a top speed of 120 km/h will using only 3.5 litres of diesel to go 100 km.

Standard equipment includes ESP stability control and brake assist on its anti-lock brake system, among other features.

"It has also performed brilliantly in all of its safety tests," says JoAnne Caza of Mercedes-Benz Canada. "Smart has clearly taken the world by surprise with an intelligent city car concept that also proffers incomparable safety and comfort features for a vehicle in this category."

"This category" would primarily include the Mini lineup of cars from Mercedes-Benz's arch rivals at BMW, who are themselves launching a convertible version of the larger subcompact at the Geneva motor show soon.

The car was a co-production of Mercedes-Benz and the Smart watch company when it launched in 1998, but now it's pretty much the exclusive preserve of the German car company. It already sells in more than 700 outlets in 31 countries around the world.

Marcus Breitschwerdt, Mercedes-Benz Canada president and CEO, says, "We decided to launch the current generation of ForTwo smarts in Canada in response to strong consumer demand. Based on the success of the ForTwo models around the world, it was the consensus that there is an unequivocal need for this type of intelligent, fuel efficient mobility in Canada."

Breitschwerdt says "The advanced common rail diesel cdi technology lends itself perfectly to the demands of today's sophisticated driver who is looking for clean energy, performance and fuel economy.

Smart will become an integral part of the product and brand portfolio of Mercedes-Benz Canada, he adds, "and we will expand and complete the smart line up in the coming years with additional models including an SUV."

Replace front end by WhatsAProGingrass · 2004-03-04 02:56 · Score: 1

"The mechanics would then contact the women directly to invite them over. " That sounds like fun! The only thing good I might see is if you can take a car to the garage, and replace the front in in minutes and drive out with a borrowed front end and still keep the messy car with all your stuff in it. So if something goes wrong witht he car, just bring it into the mechanic and replace the "bonnet". WhatsAPro

--
Mark

I've got one! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:57 · Score: 0

I own a Porcshe Boxster! It isn't welded shut, but it's pretty tough to get to the engine in a mid-engine car!

90% figure is exaggerated by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 02:57 · Score: 0

Most of the power increases over the years has come from improved cylinder head designs. High swirl ports, the reintroduction of muli-valve & OHC designs. Camshaft designs even for pushrod engines had two big leaps in technology. One in the early '80s and one in the mid '90s.

These changes have also brought compression ratios back up to pre-1970 levels.

Electronic engine management has certainly helped, but not 90% worth.

Re:90% figure is exaggerated by MConlon · 2004-03-04 04:32 · Score: 1

Most of the power increases over the years has come from improved cylinder head designs. High swirl ports, the reintroduction of muli-valve & OHC designs. Camshaft designs even for pushrod engines had two big leaps in technology. One in the early '80s and one in the mid '90s.

No, no! You've got it all wrong! Changing this chip in my engine will give me 100hp. Well, that and my yellow Type-R stickers. Yellow is key. Red will do, if you're in a pinch. :)

MJC
Re:90% figure is exaggerated by Spirilis · 2004-03-04 07:56 · Score: 1

I'm curious... "pre-1970 levels"? Did really old cars use high compression or something?

--
the real at&t mix
Re:90% figure is exaggerated by nelziq · 2004-03-04 08:02 · Score: 1

Pre-1970 we used Leaded Gasoline which lets you have higher compression as it doesnt detonate as easily as unleaded gasoline.

Would you buy a computer with a sealed processor? by dpbsmith · 2004-03-04 02:57 · Score: 1

Imagine how terrible it would be if the processor were hermetically sealed in plastic or something. You couldn't go in and put a probe on anything to scope the signals. You'd have to throw away the whole processor if a single transistor in it went bad, instead of just changing the transistor. There would be no way to tinker with it--if you had an idea for an improvement in the instruction set, you couldn't just put a few more flip-chips in the bay and wire-wrap them in.

--

"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by OglinTatas · 2004-03-04 02:59 · Score: 1

Having a computer controlling the engine is fine. You can still work on your car if you buy a vag-com tool, or a program for your laptop which does the same.
I bought a 2000 vw diesel and a vag com tool and I work on my own car like everyone else on Fred's TDI page.
A car with no user access to the engine is fine for someone who leases a new car every 2-3 years, but I expect mine to last at least 10 years and at least 300,000 miles, if not forever
(the one drawback of a computer controlled diesel is that it is no longer electrically independent. If the alternator dies on a long trip across the desert at night, I am limited by battery life.)

As for an EMP pulse, well in that event my guns will probably be more useful than my car anyway.

--
More music, fewer hits

Trust Your Mechanic by LinuxHam · 2004-03-04 02:59 · Score: 0

I'm sorry but I've been singing "Trust Your Mechanic" from The Dead Kennedys in my head since reading these comments, and I knew it would be a matter of time before someone approached it as closely as you did..

From the lyrics:

[snip]
Trust your mechanic to mend your car
Bring it in to his garage
He tightens and loosens a few spare parts
One thing's fixed, another falls apart
And the rich eat you

[snip]

Trust your mechanic
To make you well
You're seeing an awful lot of him now
The quicker he makes your life fall apart
The more money you put in his pockets

Trust your mechanic
To plug your holes
Trust him to make more
Somewhere else
Trust your mechanic
He'll always come through
And rip you off

--
Intelligent Life on Earth

Okay here's a scenario by Cro+Magnon · 2004-03-04 03:00 · Score: 1

You're a total automotive ditz who couldn't do squat under the hood anyway. Does this make sense for you?

Actually, it doesn't. How many "authorized" Volvo dealers are around your city? And how many "general" mechanics who probably know as much about fixing Volvos as the "official" ones. When you're car breaks down, do you REALLY want to have to tow it 50 miles, when there's a shop that can fix it 2 blocks away?

--
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.

Re:Okay here's a scenario by kongjie · 2004-03-04 03:54 · Score: 1

I have a diesel VW. I have lived in four different places with this car. Half of them had non-dealer mechanics who specialized in VWs and knew their way around diesels. They were further away than the VW dealers but I trusted them and admired their trade skills and dedication.
At the other two places I regularly took my car to the VW dealer. No way I would take a sophisticated turbo diesel to some hack, even if he were one block away. I live in a condo and there is no place for me to do my own oil changes here, so I even have the dealer do those for me. At least I'm confident that the dealer understands that my car must have a synthetic oil.
When I was a teenager, I used to take cars apart with my friends, but the technology has changed a lot. I prefer to take my car to someone who has the greatest chance of having the most extensive knowledge about my particular make and model. And these days, dealers are starting to realize that they have to compete with the local garage, the quik change oil guy and sears automotive. Prices have gotten more reasonable.
Re:Okay here's a scenario by Cro+Magnon · 2004-03-04 06:44 · Score: 1

Prices have gotten reasonable BECAUSE the dealers have to compete. I understand what you're saying. Currently, I have a very high comfort level with my Saturn dealer and drive past at least 3 Jiffy Lubes on the way there for my oil changes (I'm too lazy to do it myself). But if the Saturn people raise prices, cut out the free car wash, or otherwise do shoddy work, I'm glad I have alternatives.

--
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.

This isn't 1970 anymore! by bluGill · 2004-03-04 03:00 · Score: 4, Insightful

Cars manufactures have changed over the years. At one time Honda really was significantly more reliable than Ford. Many people have let Honda slide on this reputation for years, paying for more, for a car that isn't really any better than something that others can give.

Hondas have problems too. Fords have problems. I don't know who builds the better car this year, and we can't know for 20 years. Until then it is just a guess. Some years Honda builds good cars, some years they don't. People are willing to forgive Honda for a bad car because "everyone has a few problems", but Ford with just as many problems just adds to their reputation of not building good cars. It isn't right.

Re:This isn't 1970 anymore! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:04 · Score: 0

You may have had a point if these companies went back to the drawing board each year, building their cars from scratch, with completely new facilities.

This is not the case. Its an incremental process. I know engineers in the industry who have observed Japanese vs. American automotive production lines and they say that there's just no comparison. The Japanese cars are just built better.
Re:This isn't 1970 anymore! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:22 · Score: 0

Hondas have problems too. Fords have problems.
This may just be backing up your point, but based on previous experience with Fords (having owned 2 of them) and Honda (2 of them), and given my experiences test driving a brand new Escort (crappy, loud, poor build quality) and a brand new Civic (nice, quiet, good build quality), AND this study, I'm gonna have to say that no, Ford still builds crappy cars. Also, their reputation is probably well deserved.
I could continue my rant on their build quality (my 1991 Accord still has less squeaks and rattles than my friend's 1997 Taurus, both with approx. equal miles), reliability issues (when was the last time you saw a Taurus with 300,000 miles on it), their design ideas (the catfish Taurus with the radio in the trunk?), and FoMoCo's general concern for the environment (Expedition, anyone?). But I rest my case. It's bordering on flames.
Re:This isn't 1970 anymore! by Mateito · 2004-03-04 04:28 · Score: 0

I don't know who builds the better car this year
Subaru.
Their cars may be as ugly as sin, but the engineering is still as good as it ever was.

--
Norman Cook's Ode to Sl
Re:This isn't 1970 anymore! by gdarklighter · 2004-03-04 04:47 · Score: 1

I don't recall big production of Civics with faulty tires in the past five years.

Ford has a long way to go in terms of reputation. Ford withheld information about safety problems they KNEW ABOUT. People died because Ford was more concerned about profit margins than safety. When was the last time Honda released a rolling death trap?
Re:This isn't 1970 anymore! by Krieger · 2004-03-04 07:41 · Score: 1

Actually technically Acura. Which is the Honda luxury subsidiary.

Acura has had the least number of quality defects per hundred vehicles of all manufactureres. It's a JD powers statistic, but seems to be held up in most of the different car magazines and reviewers.

Honda makes great cars.
Re:This isn't 1970 anymore! by McCrapDeluxe · 2004-03-04 10:48 · Score: 1

Consumer Reports' most recent auto issue put a Buick as the most reliable family car. However, they didn't like it, since most of the rest of the car seemed 70s-like.

How long until by unixguy48 · 2004-03-04 03:00 · Score: 1

some one puts washer fluid in the fuel tank?

It's better than bad, it's GOOD! by sporktoast · 2004-03-04 03:01 · Score: 0

It's new! It's Log for Girls!!

--
In a related story, the IRS has recently ruled that the cost of Windows upgrades can NOT be deducted as a gambling loss.

Not exactly a new idea by Gonzo_Warrior · 2004-03-04 03:01 · Score: 1

Ever heard of the Porsche Boxter?

Evolution... by tie_fightertk069 · 2004-03-04 03:02 · Score: 1

As a former Volkswagen/Audi/Porsche cert. mechanic, and restorer of vintage Porsche and Volkswagen automobiles, I see this type of evolution as an excellent course. Even the newly encased engine compartments of most modern vehicle have their "end-user" items accessible. The post below in regards to the Audi exemplifies the type of old-school mentality that's so prevalent in the automotive service industry; an industry where the logic and problem solving skills needed are less "oh, the jetting is off, I need to adjust this screw" and more "the idle is off, let me check the EMS readout and verify the throttle position sensor's algorithms"... since batteries are sealed and maintenance free now, and when exposed the terminals are prone to buildup of caustic and corrosive byproduct, new vehicles that are engineered "smartly" place terminals for jump starting in a separate location on a shielded circuit that has no chance at zapping any of the car's multiple computer systems. If the tow truck guy was up on the technology of the products that it is his job to service, he would have known where to look and what to do. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't drive my wife's car very often, sometimes not for months. Even though she loves her car and knows more about how it works than the average /. reader I imagine, sometimes a problem can go on for quite a while before she or I realize that there is a problem. If the car could shoot me and our mechanic an e-mail when something needs to be checked out, that would be excellent. With our busy lifestyles, this would not only save us time but self diagnostics also saves money. The average cost of diagnostic work on modern cars is about $70/ hr. If the car can handle the diagnostics itself, all the better for the consumer. As for snitch switches or whatever, I haven't run into one, nor heard of any being implemented. Besides, if you're doing heavy work on a car under warranty, you're just ripping yourself off. And if you're in there mucking around without knowing what you're looking at, you're more likely to do more harm than good. That being said, the simplicity of a flathead Ford V8 or a Triumph's parallel twin is a thing of beauty...

Looks like.... by bigkahunafish · 2004-03-04 03:03 · Score: 1

its the muffler bearing again....thats gonna cost ya....

--
Eat a Chicken, You know you want to.

Not quite a stereotype... by alexhmit01 · 2004-03-04 03:06 · Score: 1

The whole point of the "concept car" was to explore and reconsider the auto-design process.

They put a group of women together to design a car for women, because most cars are primarily designed for main targetting men. The only vehicles that are designed focusing on women are minivans.

This was NOT to create a car for women, but to think about what changes Volvo could make to benefit all drivers. My having a "concept car" that is "by women, for women" that is vastly different from the existing cars on the market serves a useful purpose.

Most designs are iterations of previous designs. The early designers AND buyers were men. Creating a "women's car" create a series concepts that may not have been explored.

The goal isn't a "feminine" car, it's a DIFFERENT car, and the "female perspective" was a way of getting them.

Will all cars have welded hoods? Probably not. Will some? Probably.

If there is a market for "disposable cars" that have limited resale factor and are only serviced 1/year at the dealership (at a fixed fee), then the welded shut cars will exist.

Alex

Only if you wait by bluGill · 2004-03-04 03:07 · Score: 1

If you have a car fire you have two choices: call the fire dept and hope they get there soon, but most likely the car will be destroyed in the fire. Or, if you have a tiny fire extinguisher you can open the hood and put the fire out in just seconds and drive the car again.

I know a guy who for a week had to stop every 3 miles to put out the fire under the hood, until the new hose came in. If he had called the fire department the first time there was a problem he wouldn't have had a car left.

Re:Only if you wait by lucifuge31337 · 2004-03-04 04:12 · Score: 1

Or, if you have a tiny fire extinguisher you can open the hood and put the fire out in just seconds and drive the car again.

Or ensure that the car will be destroyed in a hurry. Tell me exactly how you are to know just how much is on fire under the hood and if all it needs is a bit of oxygen to take off for good? Oh, you don't carry a thermal imaging camera with you.....that's too bad.

--
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.

So does the DCMA applies if you open the hood? by Graemee · 2004-03-04 03:07 · Score: 1

Great now you can be arrested and convicted, since we're all guilty, if we do our own oil changes?

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:09 · Score: 0

And the good news is, all the lead that would have been in the paint or in your fuel additives will also protect you. =)

Men can hate fixing cars too. by freejamesbrown · 2004-03-04 03:10 · Score: 2

Frankly, I'd much rather be knowledgeable about Apache's internals than my Subaru.

There's only so much brain! The car just gets me to where I use it. Ideally, I would use as little brain as possible in the transportation process. I'd love autopilot for monotonous highway driving.

m.

Re:Men can hate fixing cars too. by Tassach · 2004-03-04 04:55 · Score: 1

I used to think the same way. Then I learned (from financial necessity) how *easy* it is to do routine car repairs myself. Auto mechanics are not exactly noted for being rocket scientists, so cars are generally designed to be easy to fix. It helps to have a wrenchhead to learn from (or turn to if you get in a jam), but you can get started just by reading a few basic books and talking to the clueful-looking guy behind the counter at your local auto parts store.
Most of the common repairs and maintenance your car requires are about as complicated as swapping out a bad hard drive. There are some jobs that you need special equipment for, but probably about 75% of all problems can be fixed with nothing more complicated than a set of wrenches and a pair of jack stands. A real geek shouldn't be afraid of taking something apart and putting it back together: the principle is the same regardless of whether it's computer hardware or automotive hardware. Give it a try -- it's car repair, not brain surgery.

--
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
Re:Men can hate fixing cars too. by Politas · 2004-03-04 17:03 · Score: 1

Yes, maintaining your own car is certainly not too difficult, as long as you buy that set of spanners (wrenches) and learn to recognise the difference between a worn timing chain and one that will last another 20,000 kms or so, etc, etc. Personally, I just couldn't be stuffed. The only way my cars get decent maintenance is by taking them to a shop for regular servicing. I couldn't be arsed to work on them myself. Hell, I have enough trouble remembering to check the oil levels!

I've got other things to do with my spare time.

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Politas

For people that didn't read the article by hng_rval · 2004-03-04 03:10 · Score: 2, Informative

Quote:
Volvo will never actually take this car into production, of course.
But many of the ideas hatched by the female think-tank may still appear in more conventional Volvos, as well as in other cars within the group.

--
Thank you Mario! But our princess is in another castle!

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by iang · 2004-03-04 03:11 · Score: 1

What happens if you have an engine file in a modern car though?

Either:

you don't have a fire extinguisher, your car's engine bay burns out, the bulkhead stops the fire from spreading
You have a fire extinguisher which is plumbed in to the engine bar, so the fire is extinguished, or...
You have a free standing fire extinguisher, you attempt to put out the fire with it, you discover why it's important to have the extinguisher plumbed into the engine bay, your car's engine bay burns out, the bulkhead stops the fire from spreading

You get the same results in all three cases with or without the engine bay being welded shut.

--
Ian Griffiths

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by alienw · 2004-03-04 03:12 · Score: 1

In my experience, the computer simplifies repairs. If you have a dead oxygen sensor, it will tell you that it has a dead oxygen sensor. 30 minute repair job. If your mechanical carburetor is misadjusted or clogged, you have to check about a million other things and then take the thing to all of its 100,000 pieces and rebuild it. And then it turns out it was something else.

Besides, I don't think the computer will be much of a problem if you happen to have a nuke explode near your car.

Yes. by Superfreaker · 2004-03-04 03:13 · Score: 1

If the car works without any problems, then wth would I need to get under the hood. Oil changes are the only thing that 99.999% of us do to our cars now.

RE: Low Maintenance by chooks · 2004-03-04 03:13 · Score: 1

From the article:

"It is minimal maintenance, really, because the customers have limited time and they don't want a car that gives them a lot of hassle," said Ms Christiansen.

Wow -- I never realized that being able to open your hood was the primary cause of car problems. Thank (#include DIETY) that they thought to remove this huge problem with existing automotive design.

--
-- The Genesis project? What's that?

Oil light by bluGill · 2004-03-04 03:14 · Score: 1

If the oil light comes on and the car is under warrintee, downshift to a lower gear and floor it! The damage has already started by the time that light comes on, if you stop right away they can just put new oil in, and things will still sort of work. If you downshift and floor it to the next exit you will hopefully ruin the engine enough that they have to replace it. (Make sure that it isn't your fault that there is no oil of course)

I can post this because I buy only used cars that are out of warintee. (If the previous owner hasn't managed to get 100,000 miles on it I figgure there is something wrong) In my case when the light comes on I shift to neteral, turn off the engine, and turn on my hazzards. I attempt to coast to the sholder of the road, but if not the police can stop traffic to get me there.

Re:Oil light by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:13 · Score: 0

The oil light coming on is not the end of the world. It happened at least a few times on my 91 Honda Accord and it lived until the ripe old age of 231k miles (damn head gasket). One of those oil light incidents include when my oil drain plug fell out (my fault) and I had to drive ~5 miles to the closest auto store with no oil in the pan.
Re:Oil light by Spirilis · 2004-03-04 07:11 · Score: 1

I call BS. Your engine would be horribly damaged after 5 miles of driving with no oil in the pan. This would be due to friction from lack of lubrication.

--
the real at&t mix

hehe your so metro by apachetoolbox · 2004-03-04 03:15 · Score: 1

means some earthy-crunchy sensitive 90's-type guy

thats soooo metro!

What can a normal person fix in a new cars engine by HTD · 2004-03-04 03:16 · Score: 1

I'm serious here - I've looked under new Turbo-Diesel hoods of VW and Audi - what exactly do you want to fix there? You may want to refill windshield-washer fluid, but that's about it. Please don't tell me you need to refill Oil on these cars, this will be done anyway on the 2 year checkup - which is sufficient and has to be done anyway, else your car wont have its license continued.

Access to the battery is not easy too, and mechanics told me to not give starting support to other cars because this can mess up other electronics in the car. I don't understand why anybody needs access to pop the hood of his new comfort car. Okay you may be able to fix most things up to Golf 3 but certainly not for 4 or even 5. Even the mechanics can't fix most stuff - they replace it. This of course leads to higher costs for the customer, it takes more time to replace some engine chip than to reconfigure some engine screw for an old beetle.

They also build many things on purpose in a way that only experienced people can repair them. It sucks that they do it, but in many cases it wouldn't help even if you had access to these parts. There are some things beside the engine that make me angry too - for example changing speakers for a Golf 4 or front light-bulbs... a lot more work than it was on my Golf 3. But i still don't understand what you want to do in new cars engine compartment.

And to the guys mentioning what to do if there's an engine-fire - i suggest running away a few meters and call the fire-brigade. Or did you want to pop the hud and fight against it with your tiny incar-fireextinguisher? And even if you had success by doing so - what next, start the car and continue travelling?

It needs curtains by HarveyBirdman · 2004-03-04 03:19 · Score: 1

"Honestly, the only time I open the bonnet on my car is when I want to fill up washer fluid," said Tatiana Butovitsch Temm. Do we need to have a one metre square hatch for that or could we do it in another way? So we shifted the filling station for washer fluid to the side of the car, next to where you fill up fuel, and we closed the bonnet for good."

Until you have to break out the cutting torch and cut a hole in the bonnet when you need to CHANGE THE OIL or REPLACE A SPARK PLUG or any other sort of regular maintenance a complex, mechanical system requires.

Anyone else think of the episode where Homer Simpson is allowed to design a car?

--
--- Ban humanity.

Re:It needs curtains by Anthony · 2004-03-04 12:19 · Score: 1

Homer Simpson was the first thing I thought of too.

--
Slashdot: Where nerds gather to pool their ignorance

The need for certified wizards - balderdash by fnj · 2004-03-04 03:19 · Score: 3, Insightful

"Are you saying that you could open the hood of a 2004 Audi and diagnose even a small problem?"

Er, yes. Well, not literally yes, because mine is a 1999 VW, and I don't need to open the hood. I spent a couple hundred bux on something called a VAG-COM (VAG-COM) that hooks up the OBD-II connector of any reasonably recent VW/Audi to a Windows notebook. It reads out the diagnostic codes in plain english - something like "temperature sensor shorted to ground" or "MAF signal intermittent" or whatever. It does a lot of other helpful stuff, too.

Many other brands have similar tools available.

The hood comes into the equation only because mine actually opens, and I can actually change out the temperature sensor after finding out that it is bad. But even if I had an Audi A2, if I knew a mechanic with the ability to get inside, at least I could tell him never mind the diagnosis, I want part such-and-such changed.

Now, as it happens, I don't choose to do much of my own work, but I did find out my MAF was bad, and changed it out. I bought the part from the internet for 1/5 what the stealership would have charged, and changed it literally in 5 minutes, a pliers-only job which probably would have been at least $200 for diagnosis and labor, not counting parts, at the stealership.

Re:The need for certified wizards - balderdash by grammaticaster · 2004-03-04 07:16 · Score: 1

... but I did find out my MAF was bad ...

Ah, a fellow TDI owner! Aren't they great?
Re:The need for certified wizards - balderdash by Buran · 2004-03-04 08:27 · Score: 1

Are you a vortexer? :)

The VAG tool is great. I was about to mention it when I saw your post. My local club has two members who have VAG tools so I get access to them for free. At my local club's install day later this month, I'm going to see if I can't get my car reprogrammed to bleep at unlock, not just lock, and a few other things like making the clock 24-hour.

The MAF problem is common. So are O2 sensor problems. I can get the parts cheap (impex.com or through a local dealer via a club discount) and installed for free by other club members.

2000 Golf GLS 4-door, white. No "real" problems, all minor. Hacks like restoration of OEM fog lights (VW removed these from US golfs), rear fog light (same), Passat W8 overhead console w/red backlighting. Love it.

--
i am a soviet space shuttle
Re:The need for certified wizards - balderdash by Buran · 2004-03-04 08:32 · Score: 1

Actually, that happens on VW 2.0s, at least, too. Fixed under warranty for me.

--
i am a soviet space shuttle
Re:The need for certified wizards - balderdash by fnj · 2004-03-04 11:33 · Score: 1

"Are you a vortexer? :)"

Fred's TDI Club. Occasionally visit the Vortex too.

Hey mine's a Golf GLS too, a 99.5 TDI. When you try to tilt it, does your sunroof ever slide open halfway and stick there instead?
Re:The need for certified wizards - balderdash by fnj · 2004-03-04 11:39 · Score: 1

Ah, a fellow TDI owner! Aren't they great.

I knew you owners would know :-) Yeah, actually they are great. I'm a diesel nut though. I had a 1982 Audi 5000TD for 18 years until I was stopped for a turn and some airhead plowed into the back at 50 mph without once touching his brake. That one saved my life when it gave up its own.
Re:The need for certified wizards - balderdash by Buran · 2004-03-04 11:48 · Score: 1

Not that I've noticed. Hmm. I wonder if you don't have a bad switch. Take down your overhead console and the switch and check/clean the contacts, then reinstall it, before you try to get a new one.

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i am a soviet space shuttle
Re:The need for certified wizards - balderdash by fnj · 2004-03-04 12:33 · Score: 1

For now I just left the cover off the mechanism, got out my emergency mechanical crank key, and leave it in the door pocket.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by hanssprudel · 2004-03-04 03:20 · Score: 1

Read your own link:

It is important to note that cars are NOT 100 percent EMP proof; some cars will most certainly be effected, especially those with fibreglass bodies or located near large stretches of metal. (I suspect, too, that recent cars with a high percentage of IC circuitry might also be more susceptible to EMP effects.)

Welded shut or locked shut? by AlecC · 2004-03-04 03:21 · Score: 1

'Would you buy a car with the hood welded shut?'

You have to distinguish between professional and amateur users. This Volvo can be opened by a professional mechanic. Software for work purposes should be opernd by a professional software mechanic - aka /.er.

It may well be a good idea to keep unskilled hands - male or female - out of the engine of a car. We effectively already have this with "trust me" software installations. But if you are employed to write software (not just web pages), you should be trusted with tools for your job.

This Volvo doesn't have the hood welded shut - it has it locked shut. Fine. Make sure you know where the key is.

--
Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.

Re:Welded shut or locked shut? by MikeBabcock · 2004-03-04 04:27 · Score: 1

That's exactly what I was thinking.

I don't want the casual users of the software I write for them to be able to modify the software because (in my experience), they'd screw it up and I'd have to fix it.

As much as I charge an hour, I'd prefer not to constantly get calls about how to fix a problem someone else caused.

That said, the software's source code is fully available on the servers at the client locations and their own technical people are briefed on how it works and what they should look for if there are problems. I've often answered questions like "which class should I check for an unsigned / signed mismatch? I've got an invoice for 4.2billion dollars here which is obviously wrong ..."

They can then fix the problems they figure out how to fix, or, more likely, tell me what they find and I can tell them what to change if necessary or do it myself given the time and need.

If I hear a nasty sound under the hood of my car, I open the hood and look. If I don't see anything, I don't see anything. If I see a belt that's shredded into oblivion, I tell the mechanic that I've got a belt shredded into oblivion.

I've diagnosed my own car with "is spraying oil on the inside of the hood", "has a shredded belt", "has a seized alternator", "the radiator fan is touching the frame" and of course, "has a dead battery" at least.

I can't fix most of those problems, but I want to be able to look.

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:21 · Score: 0

Well it was designed "for women by women", so, uh, yeah.

Don't be insulted, you pansy.

Er... by ichimunki · 2004-03-04 03:22 · Score: 1

That last comment wasn't directed at tiled_rainbows personally, just at the discussion in general. No intention of personally insulting anyone this time around. :)

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I do not have a signature

Re:Er... by tiled_rainbows · 2004-03-04 03:59 · Score: 1

That's okay, I can't even drive.

I do, however, get a "macho superiority trip" by riding the old-skool double decker buses we have here, with the open back platform from which you can hang out, feel the wind in your hear, and marvel at the potential for personal injury. Sadly, they will be phased out over the next ten years or so, mainly becuase:

1. The last one was built some time in the early seventies.
2. The current government seems to have an obeseesion with making dangerous stuff illegal.

I, for one, will be sad to see the old Leyland Routemasters go. Buses with doors? Pah! They're for girls!

--

evil math within Nature's Cubic Creation!
Re:Er... by ichimunki · 2004-03-04 04:36 · Score: 1

Will it actually be illegal for private individuals/companies to own and operate those buses, or are they just being phased out for the public system? I've seen some double-deckers being used as tour buses here in Minneapolis, smack in the middle of North America. Although from your post it sounds like you're talking about a slightly different make.

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I do not have a signature
Re:Er... by tiled_rainbows · 2004-03-04 04:52 · Score: 1

The bus in your link looks like the open-top version of the model which I was talking aboutthink - unfortunately the picture doesn't show the open platform, or lack thereof, at the back - i've seen some buses of this type with doors retro-fitted on the platform, which is a travesty!!!!

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evil math within Nature's Cubic Creation!
Re:Er... by Zegnar · 2004-03-04 05:07 · Score: 1

:'( Yea I love the routemasters, great especially since I'm too lazy to walk down Oxford Street I can just jump on and jump off at the other end... they don't even ask for a ticket. Oh yea, and when you're drunk you can just lean off for a well-timed purge... :$

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by CrayzyJ · 2004-03-04 03:22 · Score: 1

Whoever moderated this as insightful is a moron. Lightweight components, OHC replacing pushrods, v-tec designs, transmission designs, and intake technology attribute to OVER 90% of all horsepower increases.

The EPM/CPM just make mechanics more money. The good side is that we don't have to dork with tuning carbs every spring. The early EFIs were the best of both worlds.

Back on point to the article, the whole point of "check your oil EVERY week" seems to be lost. I see lots of Volvos with bent valves, etc. in the future.

--
Holy s-, it's Jesus!

65 billion? by smithmc · 2004-03-04 03:22 · Score: 1

There are 6.5 x 10^10 different types of people in the world...

Um, that's 65 billion people...? Am I missing something? Does everyone on the planet have 10-way multiple personality disorder?

--
Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!

Re:65 billion? by tiled_rainbows · 2004-03-04 04:03 · Score: 1

D'oh! Will rectify, and then write out a hundred times: "I must count my orders of magnitude more carefully". Cheers.

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evil math within Nature's Cubic Creation!
Re:65 billion? by aiabx · 2004-03-04 05:39 · Score: 1

I do!
I do!
Nope.
Not me.
You bet.
ummm.... maybe.
No way.
Yes.
No.
Why? Who's asking?
-aiabx

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Just this guy, you know?
Re:65 billion? by Bizaff · 2004-03-04 11:00 · Score: 1

That'll be 10^3 times.

Er, wait.

This has been around so long, it's almost a UL by Ken+Hall · 2004-03-04 03:24 · Score: 1

30 years ago, visiting some relatives down south, I had to get some parts for my perpetually unreliable car, and talking to the guy at the store, he commented that "soon all cars will have locked hoods, and you'll need a special key to work on them".

About 5 years ago, I went back to the same town, and (as luck would have it), had to pick up some part for my nearly new Honda. The (different) guy behind the counter made the SAME COMMENT, almost word for word! I think we're about as close to that now as we were in 1975.

Not that it matters much anymore anyway. I used to do almost all my own maintenance, but my new cars are so complicated there's not much I can do, and so reliable, I don't HAVE to do much. I open the hood on my 2002 Honda about every two weeks to check the oil. I haven't opened the hood on my other one in months, except to add washer fluid. The SUV I rented recently had an automatic diagnostic system that even checked THAT stuff, along with tire pressure.

No they're not by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:25 · Score: 1, Informative

I have an A4 and this isn't true. There's a plastic cover over the battery, but it's held in place with 2 plastic latches that require no tools to open. The plastic cover is in place to accentuiate the clean look inside the engine compartment.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by dasmegabyte · 2004-03-04 03:25 · Score: 1

1) Take off the tinfoil hat. The performance and reduced maintenance gained by electronic ignition and monitoring systems FAR outweigh the possibility of somebody shooting EMP at you. Anyhow, you can harden electronics against EMP if you want to...the army does.

2) I do all my own maintenance on my cars. I do less maintenance on the Passat than I do the Beetle, because I never once had to tune up the Passat. No tweaking of carburetors, no timing adjustments, no periodic replacement of the points and condensors...no worrying about the mixture or damage from pinging, because an electronic engine will detune itself WELL before a damaging ping goes through.

I mean, it's not like the computer parts are CHEAPER. A new ECM costs about $695. A new top of the line dual Weber carb for the Beetle is about $350, tops. But the carb needs constant maintenance and will eventually break down. The ECM provides better performance and more security with a LONG life span. That's why we use electronics: they're better, safer and last longer.

3) This is a CONCEPT car for WOMEN. I guarantee you no MAN will buy a car if he can't see the engine.

--
Hey freaks: now you're ju

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by CrayzyJ · 2004-03-04 03:25 · Score: 1

Until you have sensors throwing bad codes and you go on a weekend long wild goose chase. Not like that's happened to me twice.

Cars are certainly more reliable, but is it because of EPMs/CPMs or because of better technology all around? We did not have enough data to answer this question.

FYI, most auto stores now charge and arm and pint of blood to use their scan tool.

--
Holy s-, it's Jesus!

Food for thought by Syberghost · 2004-03-04 03:25 · Score: 2, Interesting

Interesting that when a bunch of women design a car, they make choices that, if made by a man designing a car for women, would be derided as stereotypical.

Re:Food for thought by Coleva · 2004-03-05 04:48 · Score: 1

As a woman, I'm deriding these choices that they made as sterotypical and offensive. And I am far from the only one.
Re:Food for thought by Syberghost · 2004-03-08 02:29 · Score: 1

As a woman, I'm deriding these choices that they made as sterotypical and offensive.

Yes, I'm sure the women that made those choices are very offended by them, and that it stems from their deep lack of understanding of what they themselves are looking for in a car.

Wait, I know; it's because they're women, so they don't know what they want, right?

Good lord by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:26 · Score: 0

Talk about the epitome of shallowness. This just re-enforces the general concensus that women have not progressed past the 1950's Golden Age.

Actually.... by SkorpiXx · 2004-03-04 03:28 · Score: 2, Interesting

My friend's girlfriend's dad (hearsay?) lived in Kuwait City for a couple of months. In this city there is such an influx of wealth from the oil, that the idea of "disposable cars" isn't that much of a farce.

There would be almost new vehicles abandoned on the side of the road because the car's battery died or it got a flat tire or it was low on oil. They have enough money that they can do that.

So one day he goes to a junkyard, finds two identical Mercedez, one with a flat tire and one with a dead battery. He replaces the battery from the flat tire car and drives off. ::shudder::

S

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bah.

The BBC article seems incomplete by keyed · 2004-03-04 03:29 · Score: 1

The BBC article seems incomplete. Here's an AP article that came out Tuesday that should complement it.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/ 20040302/ap_on_bi_ge/volvo_women_1 Here's some highlights from it.

The result -- a roomy, 215-horsepower coupe -- makes a statement about what women want. Simply put, they want more.

The result: A car that's designed to be nearly maintenance free, requiring an oil change only every 31,000 miles. When it's time for an engine inspection, the car sends a wireless message to a local service center, which notifies the driver.

The vehicle doesn't have a hood -- the whole front end lift ups for easy access by a mechanic, since the designers didn't envision doing much engine work themselves. You fill up the tank using a roller-ball valve opening, like many race cars have, because it's simpler and less messy than removing a gas cap.

The engine is a low-emission, gas-electric hybrid.

Gull-wing doors allow easy access to space behind the driver's seat. The bottom of the rear seats fold up, similar to theater seating, providing more storage space. The car also has dirt-repellant paint and glass, exchangeable seat covers with matching carpet and sensors that guide the driver for easier parking.

Re:It's a car for the clueless by Aumaden · 2004-03-04 03:29 · Score: 2, Insightful

Proof positive that some people should not be allowed under the hood.

I'd rather see a hood lock where you can only get the key if you pass a basic competency test.

Out of curiosity, where's the battery in this car? How would one get a jump start if you need a mechanic to open the hood?

I don't open my own hood by angle_slam · 2004-03-04 03:29 · Score: 1

A better question than "would you buy a car that has a hood that is welded shut?" is "how often do you open your hood?" I think that the majority of professionals, male and female, don't do their own maintenance. When I was in college, I opened the hood to change my own oil and top off fluid. But when you have a full-time job and kids to take care of, you have bigger priories and dropping the car off at a service station makes sense.

Oil in the radiator is good (sometimes) by NotQuiteReal · 2004-03-04 03:30 · Score: 1

My dad got a good deal on a boat because there was oil in the radiator - he convinced the boat broker that it could be the sign of a serious problem. Got a good price, cleaned it up and then...um maintained a nice, undamaged boat for several years.

Hmmm, slip fees, painting, etc... maybe "good deal" and "bought a boat" don't belong together. :-)

--
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.

Re:Oil in the radiator is good (sometimes) by fintler · 2004-03-04 04:30 · Score: 1

When I think oil in the radiator, I think blown head gasket. It could of been a serious problem.
Re:Oil in the radiator is good (sometimes) by arkane1234 · 2004-03-04 12:54 · Score: 1

When I think oil in the radiator, I think blown head gasket. It could of been a serious problem.

It's usually the other way around, but either way it's usually as simple as popping the head(s) and replacing the gasket.

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-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
Re:Oil in the radiator is good (sometimes) by the_mad_poster · 2004-03-04 14:05 · Score: 1

What do you mean other way around? If the gasket goes the oil leaks back into the radiator and makes the coolant boil faster which causes it to boil out. I've never seen coolant leak back into the oil pan, just oil into the radiator. Are you saying it can go the other way too (I'm asking, not being smart - I don't know)?

And, depending on the motor, it may be as simple as "popping the head's and replacing the gasket" every few thousand miles. Mopars come to mind.... eh, well... caveat emptor...

--
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
Re:Oil in the radiator is good (sometimes) by kruithof · 2004-03-04 21:28 · Score: 1

Now I am curious: a radiator on a boat? Do you mean that this engine was air-cooled?
Re:Oil in the radiator is good (sometimes) by NotQuiteReal · 2004-03-05 03:05 · Score: 1

Yes, on that particular boat. It had a V8, very much like a car engine. I imagine having a closed radiator system is much less maintenance than a sea-water-rusting-your-engine type cooling system.

--
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
Re:Oil in the radiator is good (sometimes) by arkane1234 · 2004-03-05 04:09 · Score: 1

What do you mean other way around? If the gasket goes the oil leaks back into the radiator and makes the coolant boil faster which causes it to boil out. I've never seen coolant leak back into the oil pan, just oil into the radiator. Are you saying it can go the other way too (I'm asking, not being smart - I don't know)?

Funny, it seems common practice to look on the dipstick to see if there is any antifreeze or water on the top of the dipstick. It indicates if the water jacket has been breached at the head gasket. Because of the amount of pressure the coolant has versus oil, it's not a likely thing to gather a large amount of oil in the coolant system. The cooling system is a sealed system, and adding material into it is very hard unless something escapes from it. When the engines running, the antifreeze/water suspension is expanding, looking for a way out. If the headgasket has a crack in it, the antifreeze has a chacteristic to slip out through the smallest crack so it escapes under the pressure. Unless the oil travels the same path at a high pressure, which it doesn't when coming down through the head or around the upper cylinder, the oil just gathers the contaminants and drags them with it back to the oil pan where it's recirculated.

And, depending on the motor, it may be as simple as "popping the head's and replacing the gasket" every few thousand miles. Mopars come to mind.... eh, well... caveat emptor...

Okay, well, some of the new Ram trucks with more than 1/2 of the engine buried out of reach of the engine compartment might be a problem, but we're talking about a boat :) Older Mopar engines used to have wierd problems with head gaskets, I know... head gaskets aren't really that hard to fix, though. It's rudimentary automechanics. The removal of the peices around the head with proper labelling is all you really need to pay attention to, along with torque requirements.

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-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!

At what the mechanic charges? by bluGill · 2004-03-04 03:31 · Score: 1

Cost for me to do my timing belt: $20 and 3 hours. Cost for a mechanic: $20 parts, $160 labor. I don't know about you, but I don't make $50/hour so I'm money ahead. And that is before you account for my enjoyment of doing things myself. Sure the mechanic himself takes home less than me, but the shop has to pay rent, insurance, and benefits and that all gets added into wages.

Re:At what the mechanic charges? by Moraelin · 2004-03-04 04:03 · Score: 1

You know what's funny?

Everyone has one (or 10) of those stories along the lines of "I was called to fix the computer of a relative/neighbour/stranger, and they had it fixed by an MCSE/themselves/12 year old kid. And boy, it was so totally messed up. I had to work hours just to fix the drivers/OS/case rivetted shut instead of using screws/whatever. And the drivers/screws/connectors/whatever were installed all wrong. Who the heck allows these idiot users/MCSEs/kids anywhere near a computer?"

Or if someone works in the service department of some computer shop, I'm sure they can tell you a dozen stories of idiots who brought in a cracked CPU and tried to claim they got it like that. Or a burned CPU, because someone forgot to also connect the fan. Or a CPU where some unskilled idiot literally doused it in tons on heat-conductive paste and shortcircuited stuff. Or with bent pins. Or hardware where the wrong screws have obviously been used, by sheer brute force. Etc.

And if there are any professional car mechanics reading Slashdot, I'm sure they have a dozen stories each. Stories where some idiot thought he saved $100 by fixing some trivial stuff himself, but indirectly messed up something else and ended paying up $500 for some more complicated repairs instead.

But when you hear people talking about their own exploits it's always "oh, I save this big old wad of money by doing all myself." Noone comes forwards and says "hi, I'm the idiot MCSE who rivetted the computer case shut, and plugged the connectors the wrong way." And noone ever comes to say, "hi, I'm the idiot you hear about that ruined several thousands dollars worth of engine because I was too cheap to pay $50 to have a professional install that gasket." Or "hi, I'm the idiot who clogged the engine with teflon flakes, because that ad made it sound like a smart thing to do."

So let's leave the selective confirmation aside, and face the facts: home-brewn repairs and upgrades are _the_ number one cause of ruined equipment and needing even bigger repairs down the line. The millions of macho "I know everything, and can repair everything, and saved a big wad of money doing so" types are the number one source of both income and harrassment for the real professionals.

--
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Re:At what the mechanic charges? by bluGill · 2004-03-04 05:02 · Score: 1

You of course never hear of the cases where someone gets the 12 year old neighbor to fix his computer and it works afterwords.
So there are idiots in the world? There are bad mechanics too. Check around and you will find plenty of horror stories about computer repair shops. (Most of which automatically re-format a working harddrive without caring what data the fool who brought it in might not have backed up)
I can do the work correct. In fact I generally do my work better than the professional. The pro wants to get the job done and get home. I want to do it right. Ever hear the phrase "the shoemakers son goes barefoot"? It really is true, pros can do a good enough job, but for a really nice job a amateur who knows what he is doing will do better. (Of course if the pro knows there will be an examination he will do better)
I know a builder, he once decided he wanted different plumbers, so he hired a couple companies to do one house. I looked at the results, and I can do a better job than the ones he hired. For that matter I've worked with carpenders before, and they have to yell at the new guys that the job is good enough, move on. Quality is nice, but time is money and they need to make money.
In short you are far too impressed with the abilities of the average pro. Nothing wrong with them if you shouldn't do the job, but they won't do a very nice job, just get by.
Re:At what the mechanic charges? by Frizzle+Fry · 2004-03-04 08:38 · Score: 1

So there are idiots in the world? There are bad mechanics too.

Of course mechanics aren't infallible. But if you're trying to claim that a non-mechanic is better off doing repairs himself than going to a mechanic, that's ridiculous. Just becuse there are specific cases where a mechanic screws up does not justify drawing the conclusion that mechanics are no better at fixing cars than anyone else. Also, just because there are bad mechanics doesn't mean you have to go to them. If you ask around, it shouldn't be hard to find a good mechanic and go to them instead.

--
I'd rather be lucky than good.
Re:At what the mechanic charges? by bluGill · 2004-03-04 09:02 · Score: 1

No, I'm claiming that not everyone who is not a professional mechanic is better of paying a mechanic to do the job. I know a large number of people who can succesfully repair their cars. I know very few people who do their own work who can't do it. Most people know when to give up and have someone else do it. Most repairs are easy once you get into them, if you know how to do it.
Re:At what the mechanic charges? by Moraelin · 2004-03-04 19:25 · Score: 1

Well, my point, on a more calm tone than yesterday, is that the usual argument is along the lines of "_everyone_ needs to be able to open their car's hood, _and_ to personally fix some 500,000 line program written by someone else."

Which is false on both accounts.

Sure, _some_ people are extremely qualified to fix their own car, but they're a small minority. The majority either don't want to personally fix it, or would be better off not even trying.

And by the same note, there's the usual argument that any company could pay 2 hours of work to a coder to fix a bug in 500,000 line open source project, instead of waiting 2 weeks for Microsoft to fix a Windows or Office bug. Which is just as bogus.

As someone who makes a living with code, I can tell you that reading and understanding someone else's code is hard. It's not just me, it's the number one reason why so many people like to rewrite from scratch: understanding other people's code and all the interdependencies is harder and less fun than writing your own code.

And most projects (OSS or otherwise) aren't the linux kernel, they're a twisty maze of little files and functions, all misplaced. Just finding the right file is going to cost more than two hours.

Big companies also aren't in the habit of throwing untested code on their servers. Everything must go through a lot of QA before being allowed anywhere near the productive servers. That's more money.

On the whole, most of them actually do not want to pay to maintain hundreds of thousands of lines of code which aren't theirs.

--
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Re:At what the mechanic charges? by bluGill · 2004-03-05 04:15 · Score: 1

As a coder myself I can respond: reading and understanding someone else's code does not have to be hard. I just did this yesterday when someone asked a question about code I'd never looked at before, within an hour I had his answer. (How to change the font color on KDE's splash screen, there was no GUI configuration, but there is a way to configure it) Mind I've read a lot of complex hard to follow code that I couldn't understand, but not all of it is that bad.
If the argument is that Microsoft will fix the bug in two weeks, open source is a break even. You are right that it often does take that long for someone to find and fix a problem. (not to mention test time...) The argument however is that Microsoft won't fix some bug no matter how much you need it fixed. With open source you have the option of paying someone to spend a month (or 12!) and fixing it. Two hours is unreasonable to fix any bug, expect when you know who wrote it (or have someone who knows that code well) and can hire him on the spot to fix it. Two weeks will solve many of them.
How do you think Microsoft fixes bugs in two weeks? (Though some will point out bugs fixed much faster) If the Samba people are to belived, MS doesn't keep people on projects after it is done, so they have to bring someone up to speed. One of Sambas big advantages is they work on the same code all the time so they understand it better.
The bugs that Open Source does fix in two hours are fixed by someone who works with that code often. They are also critical, and so that person is motivated to get the fix out right away.
As for cars, I know far too many people who work on their own cars to agree that those who are qualitfied are a small minority. Not a majorioty by any means, but still a good factor. There are too many fix your car programs on talk radio to belive the small minority claim.

Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:33 · Score: 0

It's not like anybody reading /. can afford to buy a new car anyway. They're either 14 pretending to be twenty-something or thirty-something whining that they won't work for less than a hundred grand and living in mom's basement.

Besides, it's a CONCEPT car. And the article said that it'll never go into production. Relax.

Me? I work for less than a hundred grand and drive a 43 year old pickup.

This is not true. by Matey-O · 2004-03-04 03:33 · Score: 1

NO car I buy will have it's hood welded shut.

Note the word in there, that 'buy' one. They may MAKE cars like this, doesn't mean I'd plop down my cash for it.

Of course, I'll not be buying and Volvos in the near future anyway, so have at it boys!

(BTW, Porsches are notorious for having motors that need mechanics to do work on....the Boxter's powerplant is rather hidden from view, with a nice little exposed pod for checking oil, coolant, etc.)

--
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by 0123456 · 2004-03-04 03:33 · Score: 1

No, as I said, one was a 1.4 and the other is a 1.5. So the 1.4 is producing a little more power than it would otherwise, as I said... but taking an awful lot of extra complex equipment to do so. If the mechanically-controlled car breaks down it can probably be fixed with a few basic tools, when the computer-controlled car broke down it was towed.

You Silly Little Women... by robathome · 2004-03-04 03:34 · Score: 2, Funny

/me pulls string on the back of Automobile Barbie...

>zip<

"Cars are haaaaard. ::tee hee::"

>zip<

"My seats match my outfit!"

>zip<

"Can you check my oil with your dipstick, Mr. Mechanic?"

--

At 3 A.M. you can see people's auras; at five you can see their contrails...

Does anyone else have a problem with... by tassii · 2004-03-04 03:37 · Score: 1

The fact that the car can ONLY be serviced by a Volvo dealer? The dealers around here tend to be more expensive, less responsive and generally an unpleasant place. I much prefer my mechanic that operates a few blocks down from me as opposed to drive 10 miles to drop my car off.. and then trying to figure out how to get back home.

I can't see the mechanics standing up for this.

--
"I drank what?" - Socrates

Volvo is owned by Ford. by F34nor · 2004-03-04 03:37 · Score: 1

So Ford want to weld the hood shut.

Re:Volvo is owned by Ford. by mgrennan · 2004-03-04 05:33 · Score: 1

Right!

And Ford knows what OpenSource is. They have their own internal distribution of Linux Know as FUSE.

--
There are 10 type of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

Body scanning device? by utahjazz · 2004-03-04 03:40 · Score: 1

I love the part about the "body scanning device", and the part about "automatically sending information to mechanics so they can contact the women directly".

I can just see them at the shop "Dude, you take the fat chick with the thrown rod, I'll take the curvacious babe with low air in her tires."

Not to mention freezing point by bluGill · 2004-03-04 03:40 · Score: 2, Interesting

If I had water in my break lines today I couldn't drive, because my break fluid would be froozen solid. The tempature outside is currently below freezing.

Corrosion can be delt with by various materials. I wouldn't place it as a major problem for brake lines anyway. I live in the "rust belt", where salt on the roads all winter long destroys cars. Brake line failures are rare around here.

Steam can be delt with too, just keep pumping more water into the lines. Not convient, and a lot harder to control the pressue, but it could be done.

Re:Not to mention freezing point by cdrudge · 2004-03-04 10:38 · Score: 1

I forgot about freezing...so make it 3 things then. The corrosion is fron the inside out...your seals, gaskets, etc would start to corrode. You don't want steam in the line. As your brakes heat up, pressure would increase, building up more heat. Eventually your brakes would either lock up, or eventually blow out all the water in the line.
Re:Not to mention freezing point by bluGill · 2004-03-04 13:29 · Score: 1

My point was corrosion and steam can be delt with in a system designed to run with water in the lines, but they can't deal with freezing. Just a matter of different seals, and metals for corrosion. Steam just means you have to push more in, big trucks often have air brakes, so I know they can do breaks despite a compressable transfer medium. (Note that air brakes are complex enough that you need seperate training to drive something with them, I suspect steam would be more complex, but in theory doable)
Re:Not to mention freezing point by SlashSim · 2004-03-04 14:44 · Score: 1

big trucks often have air brakes, so I know they can do breaks despite a compressable transfer medium.
While it is true that truck brakes use compression, it is provided by a large preloaded spring. The spring holds the brakes on and air pressure is used to overcome the spring preload and disengage the brakes. If you blow an airline the brakes lock hard.

--
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you'd better start looking for a carpentry job.

I'm with ya! by Pope · 2004-03-04 03:46 · Score: 1

All I can say is thank goodness that I don't have to repair the subways and streetcars that I ride on a daily basis! The bike I can handle ;)

--
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.

Setting the morons straight by Anita+Coney · 2004-03-04 03:48 · Score: 5, Insightful

A lot of people here are saying, "What's the big deal, we never fix our own cars anyway?!" And they are mostly right. Other than changing my battery, I would never repair my own car.

However, they are missing the larger picture. If the manufacturer is the only entity that can repair the vehicle, the profit will not come from the sale but from the repair.

And once the repair of the vehicle becomes the means of profit, manufacturers will have NO incentive to make quality automobiles. They will have every incentive to create automobiles that WILL require repairs, because that would fit perfectly with their new business model.

--
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.

Re:Setting the morons straight by zakezuke · 2004-03-04 05:26 · Score: 1

And once the repair of the vehicle becomes the means of profit, manufacturers will have NO incentive to make quality automobiles. They will have every incentive to create automobiles that WILL require repairs, because that would fit perfectly with their new business model.

Didn't we have this issue in the 1980s with american autos? Not to flame cars produced in the very nation I live, it seems odd for an 80s american car to make it far past 100,000 miles, where i've seen Sabbs, Volvos, Toyota, Suburus go far and beyond that point. My last toyota hit 360,000 miles and only needed basic stuff such as battery, brakes, alternator, clutch, starter, tuneups. I only got rid of it because I got tired of the car, it's still in service today as my niece's first car. I don't think it's a big deal doing any of the above my self, it sure beats going to the shop.

I am personaly quite able to repair my own car, with the exception of internal transmision work. I think it's important for all drivers to beable to solve simple problems, like a broken battery terminal for example. Normal thing to break after an auto has been in service for more then 10 years, and would prevent you from going.

--
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
Re:Setting the morons straight by tazanator · 2004-03-04 06:01 · Score: 2, Insightful

I agree and find it odd that for my Class A CDL lic to drive semi (lowery in britian) I have to preform a 117 point inspection and log it and virfy/sign it before releasing the brakes. For the army I had a 23 page inspection list to follow. If you can't get in to look at it how do you know it is safe to operate?

--
I'm told you are what you eat, does that mean I can be you by tomorrow with some A1?
Re:Setting the morons straight by clockmaker · 2004-03-04 08:18 · Score: 1

So, I was in a Toyota dealer recently. The sales critter said, "We can deal on the price because the dealership does not make much profit on new cars anyway. Our real profit comes from Used Cars and Service."

However, in your example model, some other manufacturer could come along, build a reliable and repairable car, and take business away from the slimy manufacturer you are envisioning.
Re:Setting the morons straight by glesga_kiss · 2004-03-04 08:24 · Score: 1

So, I was in a Toyota dealer recently. The sales critter said, "We can deal on the price because the dealership does not make much profit on new cars anyway. Our real profit comes from Used Cars and Service."
Great. You believed a saleman? They make a killing on the price, he just told you that to limit how much you wanted discounted, as "they aren't making much of a profit", so you wouldn't expect much.
Jeez, the "I pay X for this myself" argument has been a ploy in bartering for a long time!! ;-)
Re:Setting the morons straight by clockmaker · 2004-03-04 13:29 · Score: 1

What makes you ask if I believed a salesman? I never said I believed him. I merely reported what he said.
P.S. I bought elsewhere, out of town. The dealer knew I wouldn't be servicing there, and his price was still less!

Remember when Homer designed a car. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:50 · Score: 0

This reminds me of that episode. Just taken to a different extreme. Chock full of useless features.

-Split headrest for ponytails.
-Embroidered car seat covers.
-Hood that can only be opened by a mechanic?

I mean really, what's the point of that. If it takes two or three mechanics 10 minutes to open up your hood just for routine warranty maintenance, your going to end up paying for that labour at the garage.

Re:It's a car for the clueless by sketerpot · 2004-03-04 03:53 · Score: 1

Ordinary users shouldn't need to jump-start a car. Therefore, they shouldn't be able to!

Toyotas are even better by cthulhubob · 2004-03-04 03:54 · Score: 1

I still drive an '88 Toyota Corolla that was purchased new. It has *never* had any major problems.

The timing belt has been changed twice (once at 65K miles, once at 130K), tires and brake pads replaced every couple of years, battery replaced three or four times (mainly due to me accidentally leaving the headlights on too often), and the only bit of non-routine maintenance that I can recall is that the distributor cap needed to be replaced last year because it was cracked. It has started to chug a quart of oil a month, but I can live with that.

Toyotas are superbly engineered vehicles, built to withstand years of driving. I am very pleased with mine and I wouldn't consider buying any other brand to replace it when I start to think about it in another 20 years when flying cars become available. :)

--

In post-9/11 America, the CIA interrogates YOU!

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:55 · Score: 0

thats marketing talk...

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:55 · Score: 0

If there was an EMP burst (nuke blast?) I'd say having my car break down would be the least of my worries.

You might as well worry about the boogy man too.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by ch-chuck · 2004-03-04 03:56 · Score: 1

One of my project cars from years ago was an early 80's VW diesel - once started, it only needed ONE power connection, and that was the fuel solenoid on the injection pump, and that was so you could turn it off! A small 12 volt battery could do in a bind, and you could actually run everything else 100% mechanical. Of course the oil pressure light wouldn't work, would have to push start, which would be a bitch w/o glow preheaters.

--
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }

Inspection? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 03:58 · Score: 0

How do you go about getting your inspection done, at anywhere but the certified volvo mechanic?

But I'll need to get to the store! by Hoi+Polloi · 2004-03-04 03:59 · Score: 1

I hope EMP isn't a problem because if there is a nuke attack the first thing I plan on doing is getting in my car and running some errands in the blast zone.

I'm also concerned that my car isn't meteor proof or orc proof.

--
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning

Sweet! by porkchop_d_clown · 2004-03-04 04:00 · Score: 1

Sounds like they're adopting the Microsoft model for documentation, too.

--
Clear, Dark Skies

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by eofpi · 2004-03-04 04:00 · Score: 1

EMP's don't just come from nukes. Do a little reading on flux compression generators.

--
Y'know, you blow up one sun and suddenly everyone expects you to walk on water.

Real woman. by mrmeval · 2004-03-04 04:01 · Score: 0, Offtopic

A real woman would run over that POS with a tank!

--
I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty

Scandinavian women by Hoi+Polloi · 2004-03-04 04:04 · Score: 1

I'm sick of all these stereotypes of Scandinavian woman, we all know they aren't mechanically inept but are actually all hot nymphomaniac bikini models or stewardesses.

The men of course all wear helmets with cow horns on them.

--
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by intertwingled · 2004-03-04 04:06 · Score: 1

I don't win tin foil hats, but being fair-skinned and living in Arizona, my dermatologist has ordered me to wear on of these when I venture out into the Arizona summer sun. They do have a kind of summer Star Wars Rebel-wear look to them, and I was able to find one in camoflauge colors at the local Army Surplus Store.

--
-- SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by lucifuge31337 · 2004-03-04 04:07 · Score: 1

IE when you stomp on the gas, the computer turns off the A/C for a few seconds to divert power to the drivetrain.

1.) Doesn't require a computer. Just a mechanical switch to cut the compressor pump relay when the accelerator is depressed fully or near full.
2.) Been on many cars exactly that way since the early 80s, NOT connected to the ECM or any other onboard computer system.

--
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.

Do it yourself by Hoi+Polloi · 2004-03-04 04:07 · Score: 1

Are you saying that you couldn't even change your own oil or you own air filter? I'd hate to have to have to go to the $dealer$ for just routine maintenance tasks.

--
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning

Wow is that offensive by Minter92 · 2004-03-04 04:08 · Score: 0, Flamebait

If I was a woman I would be terribly offended by this. I mean come on. This article re-enforces all the stereo type. Women only care about fashion and pretty colors, women are too stupid to work on an engine. Way to insult the target market. And I thougt I was sexist.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by MtViewGuy · 2004-03-04 04:08 · Score: 1

I have to disagree. The advantages of modern engine control are huge. Computer control has given us tons in terms of increased efficiency and horsepower, decreased emissions, and increased integration between components; IE when you stomp on the gas, the computer turns off the A/C for a few seconds to divert power to the drivetrain.

I agree with your assessments 100%.

I mean, take a look at how far Honda has come with their four-cylinder engine technology. Take for example the Honda Accord. The 2.2-liter engine in the early Accords were carbureted engines that barely could crank out 90 bhp (SAE); the 2.4-liter in the current Accord is a fuel-injected engine that cranks out 160 bhp (SAE), meets even the tough Super Ultra-Low Emissions Vehicle (SULEV) exhaust emissions standards, and probably gets better fuel efficiency than the early Accord engines. It's only with computerized controls and computer-aided design of the engine that made this possible.

Besides, it's only the advent of modern engine controls that made hybrid drivetrains possible in the first place.

Anger will prevail by Explodo · 2004-03-04 04:09 · Score: 2, Insightful

I think it may happen for a certain class of throw-away cars, but it won't be norm for a very long time. There are just too many people who know how to get under their own hood to take that away. If you want to ensure that it never happens, make sure you make your kids do their own car work and instill in them the idea that being able to fix your own car is something to be proud of. The first time someone who actually knows how to replace their own air filter ($12-$15 for a standard one) has to pay the dealer $100 to do it, they'll never buy a car like that again.

The car is quite frankly horrid by NoMercy · 2004-03-04 04:09 · Score: 1

Apart from the usual critisims, I fear it doesn't even meet it's design remit.

Although some cars with no bonet/hood access are coming out, they really are horrid, and I would think that after some time women would discover this is even more a worry to them than if they can lift the hood... why, because if you go to your local garage and they tell you they changed the sparkplugs, the oil filter and several other things, at least with a hood even an amateur who knows nothing about cars can lift it up, pull off the fly-leeds and see a shiny metal stud on some nice clean ceramic, and a brightly colored clean oil filter and be happy they wern't conned, but this way there's no way to check and you could be ripped off left right and center, and a lot of women fear they do get ripped off because of the people knowing in general women won't know how to check to see if the work has really been done.

Gull wing doors... apart from the horrid fear what happens when one of those things opens at speed, what happens when they brake... you have to struggle to lift the things and they can fall on you... yay women would love that, all that's needed is a lower rim on the doors to preserve modisty, not that many professional women (the target of the car) wear skirts these days, in favor of a more formal suit.

And then of course, it's uguly, admitidly the professional executive woman would probably like a car which says don't fu** with me, I ran over 3 kids on the way in and no I won't be taking maternity leave, but really the vast majority would like something more friendly which they could feel some emotional attachment with, the car that will keep them and there familly safe as they move from place to place, if not an extension of the familly sitting snug in the garage.

All in all, I'd rather have a Nissan Micra, a Ford Fiesta or a Pergot 506, or whatever the new Pergot is ;)

Bah! I got something better welded shut by Chillywang · 2004-03-04 04:10 · Score: 2, Funny

The DOORS, so I can slide in and out of my 1969 Dodge Charger like it's nobody's business.

Them Duke boys got themselves in a heap a' trouble again.

--
See you space cowboy...

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by lucifuge31337 · 2004-03-04 04:10 · Score: 1

FYI, most auto stores now charge and arm and pint of blood to use their scan tool.

And they should if you're stupid enought to not ask "hey...how much to buy that thing" and they tell you it's $120, about twice what you often pay for them to use it. The dealerships usually have better code scanners with the vehicle-specific codes in them, not just generic OBDII codes....those can be had for about $300.

As mentioned in a previous post, the cost of scanners can no longer be the argument against computer-controlled ignition/electronics. It's been years since they were the size of a mini-fridge on a cart costing $10k.

--
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.

The other thing water does by TamMan2000 · 2004-03-04 04:11 · Score: 1

Water also freezes at a temperature well within the intended operating range of almost all cars.

Nothing like trying to force a solid through curvy hoses when you need to stop...

--
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by jridley · 2004-03-04 04:11 · Score: 1

FYI, most auto stores now charge and arm and pint of blood to use their scan tool.

They do charge a $150 deposit for the scan tool, and refund it completely when I bring it back. Not a problem for me and perfectly reasonable.

I haven't ever had a car that started throwing wrong codes so I can't say about the other.

How much is the dealership paying you to advertise on your license plate frame?

I don't allow the dealerships to put advertising on my car. When I pay them for the car, I tell them "When I pick the car up, I won't accept delivery if there are any stickers or plate frames on it."

Car fires by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:12 · Score: 0

It won't explode (or even burn for long) as long as the fuel pump is turned off and gasoline is no longer squirting out of the fuel line. So turn off the ignition if you have a fire. There is some fuel in the carb but not enought to burn the car up.

Re:Car fires by Skyfire · 2004-03-04 07:08 · Score: 1

Fuel in the carb? Wow, I didn't know they used carburetors on cars these days. Shows what I know.

--
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Pouring washer fluid by nuggz · 2004-03-04 04:13 · Score: 1

Assuming a rectangular container, pour the washer fluid with the container somewhat horizontal.
You can even ask a mechanic how to pour without gulping, I know it sounds silly, but they should know.

Like this
O---

Not like
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|
O

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by jridley · 2004-03-04 04:13 · Score: 1

Designed by women marketers possibly listening to focus groups. Not real people IMHO, but people trying to figure out what other people want. Possibly a little more real than if it were men trying to figure out what women want. But I know very few marketing people who think like normal people.

By Women For Women by $criptah · 2004-03-04 04:16 · Score: 1

Hereis an intersting article about a car that was designed by women for women. This car has some tools that can assist women in their daily driving routines. For example, this car has a bumper all around it for "creative driving" and it has a system that assists you with parallel parking.

This is really scary... Should people who can't parallel park be allowed to drive at all? It is quite interesting that some people blame sport cars for agressive driving potential, yet an "all-around bumper" designed for "creative driving" ( I am quoting the article ) is okay...

I like cars that are fun to drive and personally, I would never buy a Volvo, especially that model, because of the whole "soccer-mom" image associated with those vehicles.

It's called lock-in by Duhavid · 2004-03-04 04:19 · Score: 1

An old practice. We dont see that much of that as programmers, do we? No. Heavens no.

--
emt 377 emt 4

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by MrBlue+VT · 2004-03-04 04:20 · Score: 1

Havn't you seen Mad Max? You've got to roam around the desert wastelands racing and killing people for gas. Duh.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by ultrasound · 2004-03-04 04:20 · Score: 1

Electrostatic discharges can kill chips because they can generate 5-20kV impulses with enough energy to damage some of the circuitry. Most circuits that connect to the outside world are hardened for overvoltages and transients typical of ESD and induced lighting effects. But only to very small energies.

If you have an EMP inducing currents and voltages on wires, then I would guess that the energy pulses produced can be significantly larger than those expected due to ESD and normal overvoltage events. Hence lots of kit will get frazzled.

Old != Clunker by Tassach · 2004-03-04 04:21 · Score: 1

You compare driving a brand new car to a 12 year old clunker and you want to know who's the sap?

Why do you think that a 12 year old car is automatically a clunker? If you take a well-made vehicle and keep it properly maintained, it can remain in excellent shape for decades. There are only 2 reasons for a 12 year old car for being a clunker: it was a piece of shit to start with, or it was abused by it's owner. (Or both.)

Machines become clunkers because they aren't taken care of. Look at airplanes: there are thousands of 25 and 30 year old airplanes which are still totally airworthy -- because they get proper maintenance. If pilots treated their planes the way most drivers treat their cars, they'd be falling out of the sky after 5 years.

My car has no mechanical or cosmetic blemishes -- not a scratch on the paint, perfect interior, and runs smooth as silk. If it weren't for the body style, you'd think it was only a few years old. I've seen 2 year old cars that are in worse shape than my Cadillac. It will STILL be on the road when the brand-new Kia you bought today is rusting in a junkyard. Why? Because it's owner (me) and it's previous owner (my father) are anal-retentive geeks who take care of their toys.

--
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?

Re:Old != Clunker by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 06:16 · Score: 0

My 75 duster can kick both your cars asses in relability, but as for gas milage, it does not matter with a 0 to 60 of 6 seconds or so in untuned condition.
Re:Old != Clunker by misterhaan · 2004-03-04 08:13 · Score: 1

It will STILL be on the road when the brand-new Kia you bought today is rusting in a junkyard.
but plastic doesn't rust . . .

--
track7.org has all kinds of interesting stuff!

Great way to make money for the garage... by Quixadhal · 2004-03-04 04:21 · Score: 1

So, instead of 5 minutes of frustration in 15 degree weather, trying to re-tighten my windshield wiper arm, I would be facing a $50 service call and a $50 tow-truck fee since I couldn't see to drive without the wiper???

Yes, I had to open my hood, as the nut tightening the wiper arm to the motor was not accessible from above (at least not with MY tools).

Does it come with a standard? by $criptah · 2004-03-04 04:25 · Score: 1

I bet you $20 it does not :)

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by MrBlue+VT · 2004-03-04 04:26 · Score: 2, Interesting

A lot of the time you don't even need the scanner. If you have the shop manual, it tells you which pins on the diagnostic port to short together, then the console light will start blinking in morse code, which can then be referenced in the book to find out what the problem is. Very nice feature.

Of course you need the shop manual, but I buy that with every new car, it's about $100 or so, but it is definately worth it in the long run.

Petrol on the windscreen by kmichels · 2004-03-04 04:27 · Score: 2, Funny

Putting the Windscreen washer fluid top-up near the petrol tank hole . . . hehehe - gonna be interesting if that gets muddled, especially when driving slowly past people smoking their ciggies and cleaning your windscreen after inadvertently filling up the washer bottle with petrol.

And we won't even go into the implications of filling your petrol tank with nice soapy water . . .

Why the bonnet? by phorm · 2004-03-04 04:29 · Score: 1

I mean, seriosuly, why do they need a bonnett. Is it just that a hood isn't stylish enough? I can see the usefulness in having the windshield-wiper reservoir in a more easily accessible place. In the winter I drive 80km to the next city, and by the time I'm home again the damn thing is empty and I need to pop the hood, refill.

But sealing the hood entirely? There are a lot of things you could do to make it look better. Maybe a more "seamless" looking edge, with a fold-over or something like that to blend into the rest of the vehicle. Maybe a basket-style hood would be cool (opens on both sides), certainly useful in many cases where you only have to access something on one side of the hood.

I suppose some peopl might be dumb enough to assume " no hood=no need to check under hood", but even a rather clueless individual can follow instructions for basic maintainence like checking fluids, etc in the event of a mishap. How much do you want to bet that the mechanic bill for something like this would be 2x normal as well?

Re:Why the bonnet? by pclminion · 2004-03-04 05:33 · Score: 1

I mean, seriosuly, why do they need a bonnett. Is it just that a hood isn't stylish enough?
You are, of course, aware that "bonnet" is what the Brits call the hood of a car?
Another hint: they don't call the trunk a "trunk" either.
And of course, the article clearly stated that the reason women don't need a hood is because they're too stupid to know what to do once it's open. Which is, of course, an extremely offensive and idiotic viewpoint.
Re:Why the bonnet? by phorm · 2004-03-04 07:27 · Score: 1

But some local women apparently agree, though I would disagree and many women I know would as well. Not as many women as men may know about the intricate details as cars... for that matter I don't know as much as a fair number of men I know, or women I know...

However, what I really meant to ask is what is "wrong" with the hood (bonnet, whatever). The new car looks odd to me without it, and its certainly not much of a visual improvement to remove it. Maybe because I don't have the same fashion sense as British women, I dunno.

DEFINITELY not for women, then by Phekko · 2004-03-04 04:31 · Score: 1

How long do you think it'll take before they got water in the tank? I'll give you a hint: One day my S.O. phoned home and asked what to do when the screen washer doesn't work. I told her to fill up the tank and proceeded by telling her it has a blue lid on it (that specificly says wiper fluid as opposed to the yellow one that says coolant fluid) She was happy to hear this and I thought everything was cool. When she got home, she told me that my advice was no good and that the washer must be broken. I went to have a look and found that the tank was empty. I asked her if she'd filled it up and she told me that she had, just as I told her to. Except ofcourse she added windscreen washer fluid and water to the radiator. Not a real disaster but doesn't do Jack to your windscreen washer.

It should be vlear from the above why we need to stick to open source, right? ;)

--

Sigs for Nerds. Sigs that Matter.

Re:It's a car for the clueless by Aumaden · 2004-03-04 04:32 · Score: 1

I've had the experience of being far enough out in the countryside that there is no cell tower in range and having my battery choose to roll over and die. A passing motorist was kind enough to stop and give me a jump start so I could get into the nearest town and buy a new battery.

With a locked down hood, I would have had to get a ride somewhere, then try to find a mechanic that had the right tool to open it.

It might not be so bad 10-15 years down the road when the manufacturers have settled on one style of hood lock. But for the first several years you'll probably need different tools for a Ford, GM, etc. And odds are, when you need that battery on a Sunday afternoon, neither of the shops open will have the tool for your vehicle

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Holi · 2004-03-04 04:32 · Score: 1

Nah, and you don't need a fire extinguisher. Just a hangover and the blanket you slept on the night before to beat the flames out with.

It helps if the car is a 1975 Cadillac Sedan DeVille with and engine bay large enough to live in.

--
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by confused+one · 2004-03-04 04:35 · Score: 1

90% of all horsepower increase achievements have came from electronic and computerized engine management.

Not true. 90% of the horsepower increase has been achieved through improvements in overall design. Apply the same improvements in head design, materials, intake & exhaust design, etc and you'll get a similar 90% improvement in your carbureted engine.

What the computers have bought us is improved tuning over a much broader range of operating conditions. So, you don't have to retune the engine every time you drive from Denver to the coast or every time the seasons change... consequently (because very few people actually did retune their engines), emissions are improved over the life of the vehicle.

Maintainance costs will rise by Alain+Williams · 2004-03-04 04:36 · Score: 1

I had my car serviced today. I used a mechanic who has a small garage somewhere, he is much cheaper than a main dealer and has easily fixed problems that the dealer many times tried and failed (at my expense).

He was complaining that the cost of the analysis/diagnosis machines that modern cars have (plug the car in & it tells you what needs fixing) is prohibitive for him, and each model in a range will have a slightly different plug - that you have to buy afresh.

The result will be the financial death of my mechanic as I will eventually be forced to go to the more expensive (but no better) main dealers.

We need Open Specification engine management systems to ensure that competition survives.

This is interesting: it is not something that I really care enough about to make me want to do something; which puts me in a similar position to most people on the subject of operating systems: they might see the sense of Open Specifications (or Standards or Source) but do not really care enough to do much about it.

Interesting to see the fence from the other side!

Who cares about the hood? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:36 · Score: 0

It really doesn't matter much how the car runs if I can't get in it once cars have parked on either side of me in a parking lot.

I'm going to be so glad I'm wearing something cute that matches my seat covers when I have to crawl on the ground to attempt to squeeze in those DeLorian-style doors.

Pure unbridled self-absorption by cryptochrome · 2004-03-04 04:38 · Score: 1

I'm sure mechanics will be just thrilled at the idea of undoing a dozen bolts just to check under the hood. They'll be so pleased with it they'll probably call owners of this car in more often than they need to and charge them more for it.

This isn't a car for women. This is a car for ignorant women with style and an inability to comprehend that making others lives a little easier can make yours easier as well. The sort of thing the sex in the city girls would drive, if they knew how.

--

---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?

I wouldn't have it by 56ksucks · 2004-03-04 04:38 · Score: 1

I wouldn't have it at all. First of all my car was made before 1980 and always will be. Unless it's a new truck. But this is almost insulting to the general public. The general public is getting dumber and dumber. Once upon a time most men could work on a car or do repair work around the house, now days he puts on a suit, goes to the office and pays someone else to do it because he doesn't know how. There was also a time when owning a computer ment you knew how to use it. Same problem. The cars get more complex and the manufacturers think that the average man who can work on a 74 chevy can't figure it out. Honestly I prefer the old chevy. It's made with more style and you can customize it any way you want. Welding the hood shut is just their way of taking away our choices. So no, I wouldn't buy a car with the hood welded shut. The same reason I build my own computer and load whatever OS I want on it. It's mine and it will be like I want it.

--

---- "Excuse me. Where's the children's gun section?"

Cars are cars, and I diagnose faster than the ECU by xtal · 2004-03-04 04:40 · Score: 1

OK, I let your first comment go, but this is the second time you have made this outrageous claim. Are you saying that you could open the hood of a 2004 Audi and diagnose even a small problem? Even the mechanics at the dealership need to hook the engine up to the diagnostic computers these days. I could understand doing repairs on older cars, say circa 1995 and older, but give me a break. I am mechanically inclined as well, but I wouldn't even attempt to repair anything inside the engine of a 2004 car.

I take it you actually know little about the internal systems on cars. Mechanically inclined?

Not only have I diagnosed OBD-II generation cars, but I have literally torn their little hearts into piles of bearings, pistons, connecting rods, crankshafts, seals, valves, springs, and gears. I have modified and removed fuel injection systems. I have rewired large portions of the electrical systems; hacked the ECU; and even wrote my own injection controller.

Literally thousands of enthusiasts do this all the time.

I am an EE, but I did all those things with no special diagnostic tools except a PC and a multimeter, and a scope for development work. Perhaps I have missed my calling, according to you!

Cars need three things to work: Fuel, air and spark. All problems in cars can be reduced to one of those things, and they are all quickly diagnosed. Other problems are lubrication or cooling related and a sharp eye and ear can spot them all. The exception is brakes, and brakes are a simple hydrualic system. If ABS fails there are many safeguards to tell you the system is broken, and even then, ABS just deactivates.

Hope you enjoy paying mechanics $80/hr. I just don't want you to discourage anyone else from learning about their cars. If you can figure out a kernel, then you can rebuild a car.

--
..don't panic

Automatic gear shift appeals to women by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:45 · Score: 0

It is a fact that America already has a higher percentage of women drivers than Europe, and to some extent this is explained by the more common use of automatic gear shift in America. Most European cars still have a manual stick shift, and driving is considered too technical by some.

Volvo (Ford), without committing to actually build this car, has succeeded in combining some appealing new features with some that make people upset enough to discuss it. Pretty good marketing. Plus, compared with Volvo's existing models, this would be their Ford Mustang.

Not a chance by JDLazarus · 2004-03-04 04:45 · Score: 1

I've recently gotten in to modification and self-repair of my OBDII compliant automobile. When OBDIII or whatever else is next comes out, I'd like to be able to do the same I've already done... buy an inexpensive scantool, buy a new car, repair and enjoy the vehicle myself...

volvo design and implication for linux by wjzhu · 2004-03-04 04:47 · Score: 1

This particular design will no doubt win a major market share if it ever gets produced, because it is addressing a crucial issue that most techie missed - less hassle on irrelevant things (like car maintainance) so that one can focus on more important things, like time with children. That is what women care about.
The techies should let this be a signal in the OS realm as well: 50% of the population may not be interested in optimizing the performance of an OS, but simply having something useful. So unless Linux offers better user interface, as Eric Raymond's article last week suggests, then Windows will continue to have the user base of a majority of the population out there.

Re:volvo design and implication for linux by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:51 · Score: 0

The UI is as good as Windows. Usually the biggest complaint about the gui is the lack of good config utils compared to windows/macOS. This wouldn't matter to the target market anyway. The hardest part of using Linux now is the installation, which is no harder than windows. But it doesn't come preinstalled on most PCs :( That's the problem that needs solving.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by intertwingled · 2004-03-04 04:47 · Score: 1

You rule. =)

--
-- SKYKING, SKYKING, DO NOT ANSWER.

Does anyone read the article anymore? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:48 · Score: 1, Insightful

Or at least all the way to the end
Volvo will never actually take this car into production, of course.

So call off the boycotts, no one cares how much you would or wouldnt pay for this. It will never see the light of day..

Specialized tools are Engineering Masturbation by John+Courtland · 2004-03-04 04:48 · Score: 1

Everytime an engineer masturbates, a home mechanic dies.

--
Slashdot is proof that Sturgeon's Law applies to mankind.

Re:Specialized tools are Engineering Masturbation by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:55 · Score: 0

That would have been funnier if I wasn't an engineer. Of course, I do Civil work, so it was still funny.

*Will* be *welded shut*? Not quite by jhylkema · 2004-03-04 04:49 · Score: 1

From the article:

The whole front of the car is moulded in one piece which can be removed only by a Volvo mechanic. Okay, how long before some indie mechanic figures out how to remove the one-piece shell? Keep in mind that most of these guys actually know what they're doing, unlike the dealer parts replacers^W^Wmechanics who are usually little better than Dell techs. You know the type. "BSOD? Monitor replacement!" (The former often work on commission, btw.)

"It is minimal maintenance, really, because the customers have limited time and they don't want a car that gives them a lot of hassle," said Ms Christiansen.

This isn't a car for regular people. This is for white yuppie women who have more money than brains. Every time a light comes on, the mechanic calls. "That'll be $600 please" to reset a switch and the broads will gladly charge it to their Visa Platinum which "only" charges 23% interest. This is in addition to the $700 or so monthly payment to finance the thing.

Volvo will never actually take this car into production, of course.

Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it, tinfoil-hat brigade! Not a very accurate headline, but anything for sensationalism and paranoia on /.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Paulrothrock · 2004-03-04 04:49 · Score: 1

Also, I find that in most cases it's EASIER to work on my car with a computer. Without a computer you only know if there's something wrong if it's bad enough to cause serious performance degradation. With a computer, you can catch problems way before they become serious. I had a light a few months ago, went to the auto parts store, borrowed their scanner, saw that I had a stuck EGR valve, wrenched it off, cleaned it, and replaced it. Without the computer I'd never have had a clue, just kept polluting more than necessary, and possibly fouling my catalytic converter as well.

And what about those of us who would rather work on our car alone and don't know people with scanners? Are we not supposed to work on our cars on our own and waste money?

And it seems to me that car makers are trying to make it so people can't work on cars themselves. I switched from a 90 Jetta to a 99 Protege recently, and instead of being on the front of the engine, reached easily without jacking, the oil filter on the Mazda is on the back of the engine underneath the intake manifold. How the hell am I supposed to get at that???

Seems like Detroit/Japan should make it so their cars can have the basic maintenance done by their owners instead of by a mechanic who may or may not be ripping you the hell off.

--
I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.

IIRC, a Mustang did this too by georgeha · 2004-03-04 04:51 · Score: 1

maybe it was the Mach I that had the battery in the trunk.

thought it was a car designed by women 4 "Idiots" by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:53 · Score: 0

So when my battery dies I have to go towed to the garage? That's Stupid.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by MConlon · 2004-03-04 04:54 · Score: 1

Try taking a 1969 car and driving it 120,000 miles without doing anything more than changing the oil.

Any chance that might be due to manufacturing improvements? Tighter tolerances? Better materials? Better understanding of the actual dynamics (fluid, thermo, mech, etc.)? The computer isn't the be-all and end-all in this exercise, you know. And really, it's the weak link.

Don't get me wrong... I like computers, and the cool control-systems stuff I can do with them... but they're not the only thing which has advanced over the last decade.

Also, I find that in most cases it's EASIER to work on my car with a computer. Without a computer you only know if there's something wrong if it's bad enough to cause serious performance degradation. With a computer, you can catch problems way before they become serious. I had a light a few months ago, went to the auto parts store, borrowed their scanner, saw that I had a stuck EGR valve, wrenched it off, cleaned it, and replaced it.

And this is a perfect opportunity to show you the flip side, because I had exactly the same symptoms back when my car finished its first winter.

In March, when the car was under a year old, the "check engine" light came on. Sometimes it means you didn't tighten your gas cap enough, or you got crappy fuel. As it turns out, it was a stuck EGR valve, fried solenoid. The valve was cleaned, the solenoid was replaced, and the "check engine" light came on again that very night.

The next "check this" item on the list is the fuel delivery system. Valve cleaned, solenoid replaced, fuel system torn down and reassembled. The light was back on in a day.

As it turns out, the ECU was defective. The engine computer was frying the solenoid, and then reporting the (correct!) "my solenoid isn't working" error code! You couldn't tell that from the symptoms, because all the signs of mechanical failure were there.

MJC

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 04:55 · Score: 0

>What if there is an engine fire?

>Then you need a fire engine.

Don't worry, it has sensors for this. It will contact the mechanics who will give you call and invite you over to have it put out by a factory authorized technician.

That "Check Engine" light by Baron_Yam · 2004-03-04 05:00 · Score: 2, Interesting

The number one thing that most often turns on that damn light;

A loose gas cap. If that light comes on, this is the first thing you check, because paying $100 for a mechanic to do it sucks a LOT. Luckily, I used to work in a garage so I learned this from OTHER people's experience.

Of course, after those are a whole host of things that don't even give particularly clear indicators to the tech with the manufacturer's diagnostic equipment.

Re:That "Check Engine" light by cr0sh · 2004-03-04 08:46 · Score: 1

What really pisses me off about the damn light:
I know enough to know when that light goes on in any relatively modern car (ie, one with a real computer), it means "find out what codes it is spitting". Well, on my wife's 97 Neon, that light would come on, and the code it would throw was basically "oxygen sensor bad". No big deal, change one or two sensors, see if it goes away - but I don't want to deal with it right now because they are a bitch to get to.
Ok, so I know that sometime soon we need to change the timing belt - which isn't something I can do on that car (and honestly, I don't know how they do it at the garage - the room to do it in would require you to take a lot off the engine just to get the cover off) - so that was going to be $300.00 that I just didn't have at that moment. We had also figured that we would get the water pump replaced at that time since it would be easy for them to do.
Anyhow, so we know all of this, and I figure that we would get it done sometime in a few months. My wife goes to drive to work, gets on the freeway, but has no power - she can only get up to 40, so she pulls off - and the engine dies when she is at idle. She calls me, I come and look at the car, and I notice a huge puddle of coolant under the car and all in the wheelwell - not a good sign. Hoses look OK - so it can only mean the water pump. I figure - well, it finally went - but why won't the damn car run anymore (can't start it - but it is just a water pump, it should run right?).
We get it towed to our service station, come to find out that the pump is driven by the timing belt, and that it had seized - shredding (the already old) timing belt in the process. Oh, yeah - and the engine is an interference engine.
The numbers are spinning in my head - I am looking at a possible $1500 bill (for valve job, etc) - all because of a failed water pump. Had this happened on my 94 Ranger, or my 79 Bronco, at worst it would have been a weekend job to replace a fan belt and the pump.
We got lucky - no valve damage, only had to pay for the pump and belt, about what it was quoted to us originally when we were looking into this.
What bothers me is that why didn't the engine computer use the camshaft position sensor along with other sensors (including the oxygen sensor) to determine that the timing belt had jumped a notch or something, and tell me to "get the damn timing belt fixed now" (heck, just a "check timing belt" would've helped).
I figure what happened is that the timing belt likely jumped a notch from a starting to seize pump, and was changing the output gases enough to set off the oxy sensor - but because there were no other codes (I had always figured when it got really bad on the timing belt, other codes about emmisions and camshaft sensor would pop) - I didn't know that it needed help soon, until it became too late. Plus, with everything so tight in the engine compartment, there is no way I can even check (or repair/replace) either of those two parts without taking it to a shop.
My Bronco (and to a lesser extent, my Ranger) are dreams to work on in comparison. Everything out in the open, easy to work on, nothing crammed together (esp the Bronco - love that thing). All cars should be like that.

--
Reason is the Path to God - Anon

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 05:01 · Score: 0

Ignition? You mean you dont burn diesel? How stupid is that?

Sure my mechanically injected oil burner is noisy and smelly, but its cheap to run, and it will still be going in another 20 years.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by beaubell · 2004-03-04 05:01 · Score: 1

you right, i was wrong to imply 100% immunity. so It'll have to take a few hits before they are knocked out. It's also important to note that the statement you quoted is mostly opinion. As modern EMP resistance testing involves the use of EMP 'simulators', it is pretty close to impossible to tell what would really happen during an actual nuclear blast.

Gas vs. petrol by Gray · 2004-03-04 05:05 · Score: 1

That's a neat point.

Gas appliances are fairly uncommon in North America. The majority of stoves, hot water heaters, etc, are electric.

Here, most homes have a separate 220V(?) main in the kitchen for the stove, as opposed to the normal 110ish.

Re:Gas vs. petrol by justMichael · 2004-03-04 05:50 · Score: 1

Gas appliances are fairly uncommon in North America. The majority of stoves, hot water heaters, etc, are electric.

While this is true, it is also unfortunate. Cooking on an electric range top sucks. That's why the big boys use Viking, Wolf etc.

Every time my wife has to use an electric, she swears about the same as I would if you told me I had to run KDE/Gnome on 486/25.

Now if I could only afford to get her a Wolf, Steak and BJ Day would be even better.
Re:Gas vs. petrol by oracleofbargth · 2004-03-04 06:04 · Score: 1

Gas appliances are fairly uncommon in North America. The majority of stoves, hot water heaters, etc, are electric.

Not in many rural areas (especially around the midwest). Propane is much more common than electric for hot water heaters and stoves, mostly because it is considerably cheaper. Plus, it has the added benifit that it keeps working if the electricity gets knocked out, which isn't too uncommon every few winters that we have a bad ice storm and the electricity is off for a week (usually happens once every 6 to 8 years).
Re:Gas vs. petrol by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 06:18 · Score: 0

Well I mean I live in a "city" of about 50,000 in Montana...okay Helena, maybe 55,000 in the whole county. But I'm right in town, and we use natural gas (methane) for heating our air, and heating our water. Now mind you we got smart, and did large south by southwest facing windows along the main room of the house. This usually means except on the most overcast or bitterly cold winter days we don't need to supplement the solar with our heating.

Personally when I build my own home (this is parents now) I will use a gas range--since cast iron also kicks teflons ass for cooking on. And I'm thinking a gas clothes dryer. Two reasons, gas clothes dryers require 110V not 220V, and they also get a bit more thoroughly heated. All means less power used overall.
Re:Gas vs. petrol by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 06:36 · Score: 0

"Here, most homes have a separate 220V(?) main in the kitchen for the stove, as opposed to the normal 110ish"

Here in Sweden (and in the rest of Europe, I guess), we have a 380V main to the stove (three phase) os opposed to the normal 230V (one phase). All of it is 50 Hz.
Re:Gas vs. petrol by perlchild · 2004-03-04 06:43 · Score: 1

When people speak of gas, as in "natural gas", (apparently except in the us) they normally mean Methane. Propane is usually spelled out... It may be a regional custom however.

You have propane LINES under your house? And it's cheaper than methane? Or did you just mean the tankable kind?
Re:Gas vs. petrol by blincoln · 2004-03-04 07:28 · Score: 2, Insightful

While this is true, it is also unfortunate. Cooking on an electric range top sucks.

OTOH, electric range feed lines can't develop leaks of invisible, explosive gas.

When I buy a house, I plan on switching to an induction range to get the best of both worlds.

--
"...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
Re:Gas vs. petrol by justMichael · 2004-03-04 07:52 · Score: 1

OTOH, electric range feed lines can't develop leaks of invisible, explosive gas.

You may not be able to see it, but its got a funk to it. ;)

Thanks for the info, I had no idea. I will keep this in mind when I happen to be in the market for a new range.

You gotta admit, it's hard to beat the look of the Viking, Wolf, Jenn-Air...
Re:Gas vs. petrol by SnappleMaster · 2004-03-04 10:42 · Score: 2, Insightful

"Gas appliances are fairly uncommon in North America. The majority of stoves, hot water heaters, etc, are electric."

That depends where you live. In all the places I've lived in Canada and the US hot water has always been gas except in old cruddy student housing with ancient water heaters bought back in the day when electric was competitive. Electric furnaces are even more rare, and usually only found (where I've lived anyways) only in older houses.

Stoves yes are mostly electric. Which is silly because a gas stove is just *so* much better!

--
Be happy. Nothing else matters.
Re:Gas vs. petrol by SnappleMaster · 2004-03-04 10:45 · Score: 1

OTOH the feed to a gas range can't develop a wiring fault and cause an electrical fire in your wall. ;)

If gas ranges were even remotely dangerous I don't think you'd find them in such widespread use around the world. I've never seen any statistics but I imagine a gas range is just as safe as an electric one. And the gas version is superior in every functional way.

--
Be happy. Nothing else matters.
Re:Gas vs. petrol by drinkypoo · 2004-03-15 06:17 · Score: 1

My dad told me about leaving an aluminum pan on an electric range turned on high. It absorbed enough energy to liquify, but it couldn't decide whether to liquify or vaporize; it shot straight up in the air, spinning, and came straight down onto the stove as molten aluminum and a plastic handle. Now aluminum is freaky stuff but it's interesting to think about that...

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

Been done before by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 05:07 · Score: 0

The Canyonerro F-Series

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by kidgenius · 2004-03-04 05:08 · Score: 1

And what about those of us who would rather work on our car alone and don't know people with scanners? Are we not supposed to work on our cars on our own and waste money?

Did you by chance notice the parent poster mentioning he borrowed it from the Auto Parts store? If you need new parts for you car, I bet you don't make em yourself, you buy em from some kind of store. Some kind of store that sells parts for au-to-mo-biles. OH!!!!! An Auto Parts Store!

I got yelled at by my girlfriend by Skynyrd · 2004-03-04 05:11 · Score: 1

I called my girlfriend last night to laugh about this. She got pissed and yelled - "It must be a joke" "It must be from the Onion" "There's NO WAY a woman would design shit like that" "It must have been designed by a man thinking that's the crap that women want".

Sometimes women are their own worst enemy.

It should sell well to the Lifetime Network fans.

Re:.there is a case by microbox · 2004-03-04 05:11 · Score: 1

I agree with your sentiment, but consider this situation...

You run a small business with 5 employees, and you've got a customer database. Since you've chosen OSS, you know that you can pay some programmer to come and write an extension to it. That it the 'under-the-hood' benefit. Next to nobody will do it themselves, it's the business that get the flexibility of in-house development (the normal until the 80s), with all the costs and problems. In fact, the costs are rapidly approaching the costs of running proprietry software, which means that overall your small business is much better off.

Weld the hood shut, and you're at the mercy of your vendors. This can easily be enough to close a business. M$ is not the only vendor locker out there... most software companies have tried it at some stage, and some actively pursue these types of strategies.

I guess the misunderstanding lies in what we consider 'everyday' maintenance, because it means different things to different people. If you're using an OSS product, and you find it a pain to configure, then there is a chance that someone else has the same problem. In the future I think it will be simple enough to get a job writing configuration interfaces and the like. The person who'll pay you will be a small business owner in your local town who needs to use the product _and_ maintain all the other advantages of OSS.

--

Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right

Not even a good analogy. by siphoncolder · 2004-03-04 05:16 · Score: 1

It pre-supposes that open-source is just plain better than closed-source, or that a car with a less-accessible engine is worse than a car WITH an accessible engine.

It sells an attribute that's not indicative of anything - instead, it just plies a false sense of security.

It's the same kind of false sense of security you get with an SUV. "If I get in an accident, I'll probably be OK because SUVs are BIG vehicles" is the same kind of pre-supposition: that you'll get in an accident. Never mind that a sports-car, while providing less protection, is overall more maneuverable and can avoid accidents thanks to a purpose-built chassis, lighter weight to provide shorter braking distances, more responsive steering, a lower center-of-gravity, and a smaller size making it more nimble and helping you avoid front-angle collisions.

In the end, Open-source is only good if you know what to do with the source. And it's a choice of preference - just like buying a car.

--
i'm amazed that i survived - an airbag saved my life.

AE35 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 05:16 · Score: 0

I am sorry Dave, but the AE35 unit has failed. I cannot hold the dish steady.

Excellent points... thanks by The+Tyro · 2004-03-04 05:16 · Score: 1

particularly regarding visibility... that's definitely not stressed enough to the general public. Cops and paramedics get that education (some police academies teach that a right-sided vehicle approach during a traffic stop is preferable for that very reason... plus bad guys often don't expect it). Hasn't everyone seen the candid camera/realTV police cruiser dash-cam videos of cops being clipped by drunks and idiots? It amazes me that more civilians don't know how dangerous it is to be on the side of the road.

As to your other point about creeps stopping either way, my wife has a very different answer for those types...

--
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.

Re:It's a car for the clueless by zakezuke · 2004-03-04 05:17 · Score: 1

Ordinary users shouldn't need to jump-start a car. Therefore, they shouldn't be able to!

The last volvo I saw was a 1988 740 I believe, and it automaticly turned off the lights when the key was pulled. I don't remember if I was able to get the headlights on without the key in the on position. While i'm sure it's possible to drain the battery if you leave the key on with the engine not running.

I must admit I have left the lights in in my auto from time to time.

--
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Zordak · 2004-03-04 05:17 · Score: 1

One EMP burst and every automobile that has an Engine Control Computer within range of the EMP is dead. =/

Which, incidentally, is most of the United States for a High Altitude Burst approximately over Omaha. And, since the opening volley of a nuclear war is likely to be several High Altitude bursts, basically, every electronic device in the U.S., Canada and Mexico is screwed. And don't think your piddly little UPS will save you. Your computer, your car and your television are all toast!

--

Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Lumpy · 2004-03-04 05:18 · Score: 1

Ahh, but if you remove the significant reduction in efficiency that he manufacturer adds for economy and pollution you can squeak out even more. Many of the newer engines run at a higher compression capability as well as changing the timings of the injection (assuming you have direct injection instead of the glorified carbeurator that is TBI) you can do some really neat things... and I personally have NEVER came across a dead engine management computer, while a mechanical distributor problem and bad points caused me a bucket load of hell one entire summer.

Also, there is not RPM lag in electronic.. I can achieve much higher RPM's than any mechanical ignition system, and the longevity of electronic is higher... try driving 100,000 miles on a mechanical ignition system without having to perform any maintaince to it. millions do it every day with the computerized and electronic systems... I remember having to replace my points and distributor cap almost 2 times a year.

--
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.

American women mocked this car by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 05:21 · Score: 0

I saw a piece on the tube last night about this joke. Most women were offended by it until told it was designed by a group of women.

A focus group of women designing a machine built and maintained by mostly men.

This is what focus groups get you... Get back in the kitchen and back me a pie!

Sexist Pig by 110010001000 · 2004-03-04 05:22 · Score: 1

As a woman I resent your implication. And you get modded up as +5 Insightful? Are you guys living in the 1950? Women can do the same tasks as men, usually better.

Re:Sexist Pig by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 05:38 · Score: 0

Women can do the same tasks as men,
A fair point, equal rights and all

usually better.
Feminist bitch! That's as bad as being a chauvenist pig!
Re:Sexist Pig by pclminion · 2004-03-04 06:02 · Score: 1

As a woman I resent your implication. And you get modded up as +5 Insightful?
He's insightful precisely because he pointed out the sexism quite clearly. I don't think he was trying to be offensive. There is a stereotype that women cannot work on cars. Now we have a car manufacturer reinforcing that stereotype.
I'd be getting pissed at Volvo, not the OP.
Oh, and by the way:
Women can do the same tasks as men, usually better.
How are you not being a sexist pig? Oh, and try to piss off a cliff without using your hands... I bet I can do better :-)
Re:Sexist Pig by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 08:08 · Score: 0

yeah, really. I switched to not dealing with mod points becasue I generally don't care enough but I'm going to have to start using them again so sexist twits like that get the -1 flamebait they deserve.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 05:25 · Score: 0

you obviousally know nothing about cars.

or you are a poser that likes his big exaust tip and go-faster wing and stickers...

yes electronics has the MAJORITY of advances in engines. Lumpy is right, I suggest you actually learn about cars first.

Positioning. by autechre · 2004-03-04 05:28 · Score: 1

I haven't noticed it either, but I put the tie near the base of my skull, whereas I see some people with it closer to the middle of the head. I think that women tend to prefer the latter more than men, but it varies. Having the tie-off point near the center of your head would definitely be uncomfortable if your head was rested against the headrest.

Addressing the reply to your post, I don't think I've ever rested my head against the headrest unless I was leaning back (tired), so either all of the cars I've been in were poorly designed, or I have terrible posture (which I don't).

--
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by CrayzyJ · 2004-03-04 05:30 · Score: 1

"I haven't ever had a car that started throwing wrong codes so I can't say about the other."

I had a code last year, "CPS value out of range". Great, like that helps. Is it the CPS or did something cause the CPS to 'blip'. It turned out to be the latter, but it took some work. A mechanic friend tells me this is common.

"I don't allow the dealerships to put advertising on my car. "

Nor do I, but count them in the parking lot. It's laughable. Most people don't think about - hence the .sig.

--
Holy s-, it's Jesus!

Volvo knows Open Source by mgrennan · 2004-03-04 05:31 · Score: 1

Volvo (AKA FORD) knows what OpenSource is. They have their own internal distribution know as FUSE linux.

--
There are 10 type of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

Oh, but they do. by autechre · 2004-03-04 05:36 · Score: 2, Interesting

Well, they don't go back to the drawing board each year. However, my brother has a ('95? '97?) Escort station wagon, which according to what I've heard is the year that Ford finally built that model correctly, at which point they threw out that design and started with a crappy one all over again.

People have actually tried to buy it from him, because if you want a Ford station wagon, that's apparently your best option.

For years, my father owned nothing but American (company, anyway) cars because that was what he knew how to fix. But he just bought a new car for the first time in years (the last few were used), and it was a Honda. Since he subscribes to a large network of mechanics (as part of his job), he can find out what breaks on which cars when, and he doesn't make uninformed decisions.

--
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.

Driving Test by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 05:38 · Score: 0

This may meet with some problems in the UK.
Part of the new driving test requires a demonstration of 'under the bonnet' knowledge:
BSM Site

Software != Car which is hardware by KalvinB · 2004-03-04 05:40 · Score: 1

I expect my car to have natural wear and tear which requires the ability to replace those parts designed to eventually fail.

Software doesn't have parts that are designed to eventually fail that need to be replaced. For loops don't degrade over time. It either works or it doesn't. And if it doesn't work, it's the company's sole responsibility to make it work. Whether or not it works can be established as soon as the software is loaded or by reading reviews.

When software is Open Source it can sometimes be close enough. I've modified source code to fit my needs before (I added an IP whitelist to WinVNC for example). Linux can't be "close enough." An operating system is far too complicated for anyone but the truely dedicated to care if they can "get under the hood" or not. With big apps I get what fits my needs. Closed source or not. Most people buy only the software that fits their needs. Nobody is going to buy (or even accept for free) tax software that almost can do their taxes.

A valid analogy has nothing to do with software. Would I buy a computer who's case is sealed shut? No. For the same reason I wouldn't buy a car with the hood sealed shut. Some people don't care to replace those parts of a computer designed to eventually fail (or go obsolete) just like some people don't care to ever get under the hood of their car. Macs and laptops are such computers. That's what keeps me from buying them.

Ben

--
Work Safe Porn

What kind of candy-assed women are these? by rk · 2004-03-04 05:40 · Score: 1

Not any kind of women I'd like to be around. My wife, bless her soul, can change oil, gap and replace spark plugs, flush and fill the radiator and even replaced a water pump on one car.

I wonder if when this car has a problem if a squeaky little voice comes out of the dash saying "cars are hard! Let's go shopping!" This just further backs my opinion that the worst discriminators against women are usually other women.

I'll bet my wife could kick these designers' asses, too.

Welded Hoods by Mad+Ogre · 2004-03-04 05:42 · Score: 1

Welding the hood shut. That's just great. What about checking your oil level, changing your spark plugs, changing your air filter, etc... This is a bad idea. I could maybe see no hoods in the future when the cars are electric and you don't have an engine that needs regular check ups. But as long as we still pump gas - we need to pop the hood. Oh, and Volvos suck. Thank you.

--
MadOgre.com

Missed the point by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 05:44 · Score: 0

You ALL missed the point: the guy who submitted this was a total dipshit who didn't even see what had been done.

Others saw it, and belched through their beer stink.

The goddamned car was designed by women - any of which I would take over the likes of you losers.

Bunch of idiotic, moronic, AMERIKAN dipshits.

By women for women???? by mark-t · 2004-03-04 05:46 · Score: 1

That's bullshit.

In addition to being so sexist it ought to be criminal, it's patently untrue that women, in general, would actually would want this sort of thing.

Heck, my wife is arguably better with mechanics than I am -- she's certainly better at accurately diagnosing problems based on nothing more than sound.

--
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'

don't smear the 'man2000 name by TamMan2000 · 2004-03-04 05:49 · Score: 1

Steam is most certainly compresable, ask anyone who has had an intro engineering thermodynamics class...

The term steam is oftem only used for a multiphase mixture of liquid water and gasous water. The liquid part is incompressable, but the gasous part is quite compressable, and one of the neato properties is that when the mixture is compressed the liquid phase mass fraction increases, but it is still quite compressable...

--
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...

Boxster engine IS accessible from the top by pvera · 2004-03-04 05:52 · Score: 1

You just need to remove the rear part of the convertible top. Not that you need to do that, since most routine maintenance points are located elsewhere in the car.

As for removing the engine, the car was designed from day zero so removing the engine could be done without much hassle. Of course, it sucks that you cannot show off the engine, but let's be realistic, none of the Porsche engines have much to show. The engines on the 911/996 series are covered with fans and junk, and the engines in the Cayenne have moldings all over.

Now, lemme tell you about something retarded. My last 3 cars were different generations of the Mazda Miata/MX-5/Eunos roadster. Both the Mk.1 and Mk.2 have the battery (a space saver gel battery about half as big as a normal battery) is located on the right rear fender. Mk.1 have it inside of the fender itself, while the MK.2 has it under the trunk space level. They did this mostly for balance. You can change the battery in a minute or two, just like every other car I have owned in my life. So I was a bit spoiled about how easy it is to change a car battery.

That is, until the Dodge.

My wife drives a 1997 Dodge Stratus. The battery finally gave away the ghost, but for the couple years we had it so far I had never seen the battery. Where the battery is usually located it has two bright plastic caps for contact points in case you need to jump start. One is red, the other black, pretty straightforward.

The battery is nowhere to be seen.

I am a mechanical engineer by training and a car nut, so I felt very embarrassed to have to spend more than one minute looking for something so damn big! Eventually I found it. It was crammed inside the front half of the front left fender well. The fender well had a faint outline of a battery. That meant the fender well had to be removed to have access to the battery.

Small problem. The wheel is in the way! To hell with it, I drove to a car/tire store and they quoted me $50 for a new battery, installed. I asked 3 times just to be safe. They kept saying $50, so I said sure. The way I see it I'll pay $10 for the battery and $40 for the amusement of watching some poor bastard try to change my battery.

The job took at least 30 minutes, of which 15 were wasted by the mechanic trying to find out where the battery was located at. The other 15 went into putting the car in a lift to remove the wheel so the battery could be switched. Ouch.

THAT to me is worse than the stupid hood being welded shut.

--
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder

Re:Boxster engine IS accessible from the top by dfung · 2004-03-04 07:05 · Score: 1

That Stratus story is hilarious! I know the battery is always a matter of design contention given it's great weight relative to most other car parts. I think the problem is that normal usage patterns (actually I guess this should be non-usage patterns) cause the battery to be more often replaced than something like a starter motor or fuel pump, so it sure is nice to be able to get to it.

I have a bunch of cars including a 1990 BMW 535i. I have to admit that I noticed that I didn't see the battery location under the hood other than a giant "+" terminal covered with a plastic cap for jump starts. Nothing in the trunk either. I did find out exactly where the battery was in truly specacular fashion one night. I was leaving work after dark, got in the car, turned the key... and the battery exploded in it's little compartment under the back seat. Literally blew the back seat bottom out of it's mounts, although it was housed under plastic shields that blocked the spew of battery acid.

I assume that I must have had a short somewhere that was causing the evolution of hydrogen gas. Or maybe my co-workers hated me more than they had let on.

The bad part about that location was that it's a bitch to clean up and my car still has a slightly barfy smell to it many, many years later (I think this must have happened 10 years ago).
Re:Boxster engine IS accessible from the top by Buran · 2004-03-04 07:25 · Score: 1

The battery is in the same place in the original VW Beetle. They were prone to having the same thing happen -- and the rear seats of the time were filled with flammable material! (straw, or something like that, I think; been a long time since I looked up exactly what.)

--
i am a soviet space shuttle

Cutting torches are for wimps. by MachDelta · 2004-03-04 05:53 · Score: 1

Real men use a Sawzall.

Point in case.

Wrong demographic by awtbfb · 2004-03-04 05:54 · Score: 1

No, it's a car for dads.

Wrong. by juuri · 2004-03-04 05:54 · Score: 1

This simply isn't true.

There are maintenance numbers for LN 1 and LN 2 which are preset for required maintenance intervals but with a VAG ($99) you can reset those if you do the work yourself.

--
--- I do not moderate.

Re:Wrong. by jorlando · 2004-03-04 07:34 · Score: 1

But that requires a specialized tool (software, in this case) to do this. It's not more "change the oil at the gas station".
Re:Wrong. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 09:37 · Score: 0

You are missing the point, regular oil changes don't require any checks on cars that aren't under warranty. While your audi is under warranty you want the notices to come on since the dealer does ALL maintenance work for free. Once your car is out of warranty, the checks are disabled so you can do oil yourself or at the Pep Boys.
Re:Wrong. by jorlando · 2004-03-04 12:13 · Score: 1

Thanks for clarifying. I was thinking that was a permanent "feature" that could stop the user from using cheaper alternatives. My bad...

Re:No, there'll be a lot of them in the junk yard by trigggl · 2004-03-04 05:57 · Score: 1

If this car ever did go into production, aftermarket would have quick release fasteners for the hood in a heartbeat. It might actually be pretty cool, kind of like a Spitfire or Corvette hood. But, if it were too hard to get off for the average owner, you would see a lot of them for sale by owner, or in the junk yard.

--
Ops, I shuld have usd the prevuwe but in.

WTF. by juuri · 2004-03-04 06:00 · Score: 2, Interesting

This is totally wrong on so many levels that I don't even know where to begin. All the plastic covers under the hood can be released with either a dime or a flat head screw driver; They are simple pop screws. Even more troubling is your contention that removing a protective cover to jump a car would void the warranty, where did that come from? What part of your brain made that up?

BTW *all* regular maintenance is included with newer audis for the length of the warranty, when a car comes out it is easy to turn off the info notices.

I'm sorry the mechanic there was unskilled and you and your friend are morons, hopefully life isn't too hard for you.

--
--- I do not moderate.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by CaptainPuppydog · 2004-03-04 06:02 · Score: 1

According to this article, the metal frame of an automobile acts as a faraday cage and is therefore immune to EMP blasts. http://www.aussurvivalist.com/nuclear/empprotectio n.htm Of course this wouldn't be the case with cars built with plastic frames.

Even if the metal frame acted as a perfect faraday cage (ignoring the fact there are window sized holes in it and resistive connections (lubricated hinges) to the doors), things that puncture through the cage would render its protection moot anyhow. Things like, oh, idunno, antennas ... ;)

I've seen demos where you put an EM radiator/transmitter inside a decent faraday cage and an EM receiver placed outside the cage picks up very little from the radiator. Put a short wire through a hole in the faraday cage and the receiver picks up a heck of a lot...

Besides, if you're within range of a nuclear EM pulse, you've probably got other things to worry about besides whether or not your car runs or not...

Gullwings. Great. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 06:05 · Score: 0

Thankfully this "welded" (RTFM!) hood is about as likely as any other part of the design.

Didja see the doors?

Gullwings. Beautiful things on an old mercedes, that gets to park *only* in it's own climate-controlled garage or the Concours at Pebble Beach.

But a Volvo?

First time that thing gets parked at a Baby's'R'Us / yuppie-f&^k store... and gets an Escalade on one side and an Ex[cursion|pedition|plosion] on the other... bwa-hahaha. Might even make me want to drive my ol' truck to said stores. ; )

Hey! Volvo! How about instead of gullwings and fancy hoods you work on, I dunno, something that gets your damned brainless soccer-mom drivers to check their blindspots / stop smackin' the kids / hang up their phones / **look** for motorcyclists?

Hood Welded Shut -- Bad Analagy for Closed-Source by sankeld · 2004-03-04 06:05 · Score: 0

open source advocates (myself included) in favor of open source is the simple question: 'Would you buy a car with the hood welded shut?'

Just to push my Karma even further into the depths of sinful badness, I'd like to point out how source code is less like a car's components and more like a car's blueprint.

Car manufacturers are not going to give the instructions on how to create a clone of the motor you purchased. Especially not in a way where you could improve upon their design. In this way, closed software development represents current engineering business practices.

Allowing the hood to be opened is more akin to making the windows registry available or allowing the user to screw around with the locations of installed program files.

In conclusion, use other arguments for open source. I think that since code is notoriously harder to create bug-free than mechanical designs, open source may be viable for code where it isn't for blue prints. Arguments along this line would probably carry more weight.

Only a concept car -- not a real model by jonadab · 2004-03-04 06:07 · Score: 1

# Volvo will never actually take this car into production, of course.
# But many of the ideas hatched by the female think-tank may still appear
# in more conventional Volvos, as well as in other cars within the group.

I'm thinking ideas like the seats and stuff, and maybe moving the windshield
washer fluid fill spot over by the fuel tank fill spot, are the ones that will
get included in other models, probably not the hood design.

--
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.

Changing the oil by trigggl · 2004-03-04 06:13 · Score: 1

Let me count the things I refuse to pay someone else to do that I usually need to open the hood to do.

I need to change the oil. Air filter. Change the battery.
Replace the alternator.
Replace a timing belt/water pump.
Sometimes fuses are under the hood.

I'm sure there's a lot more.

At least there's an access to the windshield washer resivoir. That's a lot more important than keeping the oil filled.

--
Ops, I shuld have usd the prevuwe but in.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Delta+Vel · 2004-03-04 06:19 · Score: 1

This is a CONCEPT car for WOMEN. I guarantee you no MAN will buy a car if he can't see the engine.

I guarantee you no INTELLIGENT PERSON will buy a car if they can't see the engine.

Take your sexism and shove it.

--
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye. Then it's fun and games without depth perception.

Another one for you... by BiggerIsBetter · 2004-03-04 06:19 · Score: 1

How about Cell Phones? New face plate, ring tones, boot logos, but nothing actually changes except the aesthetics. They're trying to make cars even more "consumer" oriented. Which is a nice way to kill the non-OEM auto industry.

--
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.

Re:Another one for you... by Tony-A · 2004-03-04 09:45 · Score: 1

Which is a nice way to kill the non-OEM auto industry.

Which then kills the OEM auto industry.

Think about it. The reason people drive cars instead of using public transportation is that people want to drive their cars.

Take away the hot rods, drag races, NASCAR, restored classics, and the ability to do something to somehow customize your set of wheels, and you and a lot of other people will realize that there are better ways to use their excess money.
Re:Another one for you... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 10:07 · Score: 1, Insightful

No, the reason motorheads drive cars is because they want to drive them.

Regular people (many of whom couldn't give a flying nutsack what speed it reaches in 60 seconds, or what grade of oil it takes, or whether they can pull it to bits and reassemble it blindfolded) just want their cars so they can GET PLACES without having to deal with mediocre public transport. If I want to get to a friends house at 9pm, I don't want to have to catch a bus 2 hours earlier because the timetable doesn't coincide with my interests.

People want cars for convenience, not because they see rednecks drive 500MPH in a bent circle at NASCAR.
Re:Another one for you... by Rysc · 2004-03-05 13:37 · Score: 1

Once more into the car/computer analogy.

What parent poster says is of course true. How can one argue otherwise? It also sounds a /lot/ like arguments by GUI-simplification people. Let me quote and edit:

"Regular people (many of whom couldn't give a flying nutsack what speed the processor is, or what kind of architecture it is, or whether they can fiddle with the bits and recompile the kernel) just want their computers so they can GET WORK DONE without having to deal with mediocre user interfaces. If I want to burn a CD, I don't want to have to mess with SCSI configuration or know that bus 2 LUN 1 is my RW device."

"People want computers for convenience, not because they see geeks running 200GHz seti@home cliusters."

All of that is true, too. But the point I believe parent's parent was making was: That's all complete bunk.

Maybe people just want cars to get places. and maybe people just want computers to get work done, but without the car nut segment and without the geek segment the industry would collapse. If you welded all car hoods shut, the vast array of car nuts who push things forward, or recommand this or that car or part to a friend, or repair such-and-so problem get screwed. These people may not buy the majority of cars, but their presence and enthusiasm makes the car industry what it is when someone totally disinterested in cars sees it.

Likewise with computers and their interfaces. Maybe people just want to get work done, but if you close all apps and simplify into uselessness all interfaces then the geeks get screwed. And without a vast array of geeks who push things forward, or recommand this or that hardware or software to a friend, or fix such-and-so problem the industry gets screwed. These people may not buy the majority of computers by volume, but their presence and enthusiasm and contribution makes the computer industry what it is when someone totally disinterested in the nuts-and-bolts of computers sees it.

DON'T simplify for "everybody"; target the low-end enthusiast, and everybody else will just deal with it. Most of them will fancy themselves a bit of an expert about this or that, and be pleased to know one tiny bit about their car/computer.

--
I want my Cowboyneal

comment please by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 06:21 · Score: 0

Most people DONT GIVE A SHIT if their car's hood is welded shut.

--ghostdog

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 06:22 · Score: 0

Try taking a 1969 car and driving it 120,000 miles without doing anything more than changing the oil.

Computer or not, you are going to run out of gas long before you ever get to 120Kmiles.

What's wrong with everyone. It's a concept Car. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 06:26 · Score: 3, Interesting

It's not a production model. It's a concept car to test different concepts. There are various good concepts in the car. All the diffirent ways to get more storage room are really great. Hopefully, those storage ideas all make it into some model. The idea of having a separate port for the window washer is great. Why open the entire hood when you just need to refill the window washer.

Some ideas will make it to production cars, some will not. The maintenance free idea is probably everyone's dream. I see it as an extension of the hybrid car. The petrol/gasoline engine doesn't run as much and also runs at it's more efficient setting, so it takes more miles on the vehicle to require servicing. No radiator fluid is needed, because the smaller engine produces less heat. All the other parts probably follow the standard service periods. We all know approximately how long rubber belts will last before they fail. It's practically the same for almost every car. We know approximately how long batteries last. Tires have their own service periods, which is much longer than than the oil change and tune-up. It's a lower maintenance car.

When we get fuel cells and get rid of the petrol/gasoline engine, there will be even less parts to worry about failing. Electric motors last quite a long time. No more sparc plugs or engine oil changes. Just a fuel cell, which has non-moving parts, similar to a battery. Time between maintenance will certainly stretch beyond the 31,000 miles on volvo's concept car.

This is really disturbing by Delta+Vel · 2004-03-04 06:29 · Score: 1

Why is it that machines "designed for women," whether by women or not, almost always allow the user to do anything they want to the appearance but absolutely nothing to the substance? the Volvo concept car remains eminently sensible. I beg to differ. Welding the hood shut and relying completely on a computer to tell you when something goes wrong is eminently stupid. No, wait. Welding the hood shut and relying on a computer and a system of human beings to tell you when something goes wrong is eminently stupid. And who is going to go through the trouble of changing the color of their interior? Looks like the only decent idea is the split in the headrest for ponytails...but I hope they don't make it so that you get your head stuck in the headrest if you get rear-ended too hard.

--
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye. Then it's fun and games without depth perception.

wait a moment... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 06:33 · Score: 0

"The mechanics would then contact the women directly to invite them over."

hmmm... wait a moment - PORN

For females? Why the extra large bonnet? by mr3038 · 2004-03-04 06:36 · Score: 1

I mean, female drivers are usually said not to be able to drive. On the other hand, most fatal traffic accidents are caused by males. The thing is, female drivers make a little bumps on the parking lot and stuff like that. They tend to survive to tell the story... If I were to design a car for women, I'd make sure that all the corner parts of the exterior would be easily replaceable and cheap (and therefore small so you can change only broken part). Latest VW Golf is already a step in this direction but a major change is still waiting to happen.

If the bonnet and both sides of the front of the car is a single piece, just think how much it's going to cost if you must change the whole thing after a minor bump?

--
_________________________
Spelling and grammar mistakes left as an exercise for the reader.

Re:What's wrong with everyone. It's a concept Car. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 06:41 · Score: 0

You are an idiot. That is probably why you post as AC.

Nobody wants a maintainance free car. They want a car that doesn't break constantly.

Nobody fills their washers as often as they fill their gas tanks.

And nobody cares what a couple of loudmouthed ignorant ACs think.

i was really suprised by mcsmurf · 2004-03-04 06:48 · Score: 1

my father has some of there new cars (or in Europe this "feature" is somewhat new): The car now beeped after 2000km every time you started the engine you should go to the car service and displayed this message on a display. I was almost surprised the car didn't go off after another 50km :). Anyway after some argumentation of about 15 minutes ("you will lose your guaranty"; "what if something is really wrong, etc.", btw this car almost detects everything thats broken *g*), they turned the km and driving minutes to 0 again. what i found impressing btw when the car showed it needed some service, it already detected that there must be something wrong with the coping of the third cylinder. Anyway what i found bad, you already needed to go to service 4 times in 2 yours! Also this is within guaranty time, somewhat older cars didn't get such easiley broken.

I thank our pundit overlords by perlchild · 2004-03-04 06:51 · Score: 1

For giving Volvo the idea, great going guys, wreck another little pocket of openness in the world.

It's annoying and disquieting to realize how to corporations, until customers actually pay "more" for openness(or refuse to pay for "not-open") openness is considered a necessary evil.

Next time we compare open-source to something of the real world, let's not mention something else that is open... Let's mention something someone wouldn't buy BECAUSE it's closed, say a clock.

Would you buy a clock with a lid on it that prevents you from reading the time?

At least this way, clock manufacturers can't close something ELSE up to quiet open source proponents.
</sarcasm>

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Bendebecker · 2004-03-04 06:54 · Score: 1

I have and flux compression generators are lucky to generate an EMP field the size of a regular balloon. Ocean's 11 is a fantasy. Unless your car is parked in the lab itslef and assuimng someone doesn't set one on top of the car, you don't have to worry.

--
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy

Here we go, back to serfdom by Duhavid · 2004-03-04 06:56 · Score: 1

You probably think I am kidding. The old stuff about the "company store" was real. Think it cant happen? You probably thought SCO couldnt sue IBM, Autozone, nor Daimler-Chrysler.

--
emt 377 emt 4

Male ponytails are different from female ponytails by thomasdelbert · 2004-03-04 06:56 · Score: 1

I'm a male and I quite frequently wear a pnytail too. However, there is a difference between male pnoytails and female ponytails: Men usually bind their ponytails near the indentation at the base of their skulls. Thus, the ponytail is aimed downwards and does not portrude much from the backs of their heads. Females typically bind their ponytails at or slightly above the farthest rearward point on their skulls which aims their ponytails directly rearwards. Not only that, females typically have thicker hair which only serves the stregnthen the portrusion and the intereferance with the cranial deflector.

- authority on the differences between female and male anatomy;

--
___ This sig is in boldface to emphasize its importance!

Cars Designed For Women Are Stupid (To This Woman) by Buran · 2004-03-04 06:57 · Score: 2, Interesting

Seat covers removable for cleaning

We need a concept car for this? That's what seat covers are for.

Seats with covers changeable to match my outfit

I have black seats. If I didn't have black seats, I'd have grey seats. Black and grey go with anything. But IT'S A CAR, NOT A DRESS. I get in the car to go somewhere. If I wear something nice, it has nothing to do with what the car looks like.

Auto-adjusting seats and pedals

Fantastic. I want this. My seat goes up and down and back and forth and the back tilts up and down, and the steering column goes up and down and in and out, but why can't I move the pedals back and forth? It's been done, and I'm short and I could really, really use that feature. Where is it?! Oh, and why can't I adjust the seatbelt more? I have to use cheap plastic adjusters to keep it off my neck, since a seatbelt on the neck is unsafe and uncomfortable.

Back seats that fold down only when needed

Well, that can be interesting, but I can either leave my seats folded down for carrying large stuff or just put stuff on the seats. Does this give me any more room than just leaving the seats as they are?

Hidden umbrella

Now that I like. I'm not sure where mine is and it's raining like crazy outside. I need to get one of those ultra-small foldable ones and stow it in the CD changer cubbyhole.

Welded-shut hood

Now this is stupid. Their justification is that people don't want to open the hood except when they want to refill washer fluid or check the oil. So they just want to put in a smaller hatch for that. Um... okay. So what's wrong with having one single hood that allows access to the engine AND allows refilling of vital fluids? I like being able to check my engine's condition and refill things and do whatever I want to it, like reverse VW's stupid decontenting (the car didn't come with OEM fog lights but it has them anyway, screw you VW). You're stupid if you can't see the big blue-colored flap for the washer fluid tank that also has the standard 'washer fluid' symbol stamped into it. Same with the oil filler cap which has a large picture of an oil container on it. Make things easy for me to find, but DON'T mess with my ability to do whatever I want to the car I own.

Automatically notices if something's wrong and contacts garage

That's what the "check engine" light (also called MIL) is for. It lights up if something is wrong and I need to get it fixed. But I'll do it on my own good time (I'll have a a local VW club member bring their scanner tool to the next meeting, or just borrow it from them, find out what the car thinks is wrong, and call a shop of MY choosing if it's something serious requiring a mechanic to fix; last time the light came on it was a momentary sensor failure; a shop would have charged me $100 to tell me that and clear the code.)

Ponytail-proof headrest

Good idea in theory, for people who may need an extra bit of room for that or any other reason, but I bet it looks really stupid. I often wear my hair in a ponytail, and I didn't think it was bad enough to require this sort of thing...

Never to go into production

THANK GOODNESS.

Other interesting tidbits

But many of the ideas hatched by the female think-tank may still appear in more conventional Volvos, as well as in other cars within the group.

Volvo is a subsidiary of Ford, and the Swedish carmaker's idiosyncratic insistence on practicality and safety seems to be spreading within the group.

Take the new Mondeo which is to be built on the Volvo S60 platform.

The decision was apparently taken after Volvo refused to accept plans to use a Mazda platform across the group since it did not live up to its safety standards.

Yay!

--
i am a soviet space shuttle

re: A real geek by freejamesbrown · 2004-03-04 06:57 · Score: 1

So I'm not a real geek because I don't want to screw around with my mobile polluting death machine?

Fuck me, but I HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DO. If that negates my geekness, then I guess I'll retreat to baseless dorkiness or something.

And you get modded up! Oh slashdot, where is the sense? If you only promote a monoculture, you will be irrelevant.
m.

ps wah wah wah, nobody likes me! :) [insert salt grains here]

Insurance Nightmare by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 07:01 · Score: 0

To respond to the parent; the Boxster is like this (must not be many cars buffs here since I haven't seen this pointed out), and you cannot access the engine from the boot or bonnet (both are for storage).

Now, if yall remember, vettes used to have a great-looking one piece hood, but it was redesigned to help lower insurance costs (so that if you get a bad dign on the left fender, the ENTIRE front section doesn't have to be replaced).

Found Dead... by Lodragandraoidh · 2004-03-04 07:04 · Score: 2, Interesting

I can see it now: thousands of these autos found dead along the roadside like a flock of dinosaurs...the engines having seized up from running out of oil...

Modern aircraft still use dipsticks, because sensors don't always work.

--

Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain

The question isn't Would You Buy One by serutan · 2004-03-04 07:11 · Score: 1

The question is, Will You Have Any Choice? If governments eventually decide that this is a good idea for business, then you won't.

Mod parent down!!! by wayward_son · 2004-03-04 07:12 · Score: 1

Insightful, my ass!

Anyone who claims computers are no good for automobiles understands neither computers nor automobiles.

Once upon a time, say the late 1970's, the idea that computers were no good for cars would be true. Early systems were primitive, expensive, unreliable, and not well understood by most mechanics.

However, now computers can control and instantaneously adjust hundreds of setting in a car while driving. Computers are what is responsible for the gains in horsepower and fuel economy in the past 20 years. Computers (and unleaded gas) are the reason cars can go 100,000mi between tune-ups; the car is tuning itself up as you drive! Computers have eliminated the awkward, byzantine, unreliable, and inefficient emmissions systems of the pre-microprocessor era.

Yes, some of the best cars ever built were built before microprocessors. But they were also built before emmissions and fuel economy regulations. I'm sure that breaker point ignition 1960's muscle car is great. And I'm sure it's easy to work on. But I'll bet it gets terrible gas mileage for the horsepower it produces, pollutes like crazy, and is considerably higher maintenance than what they have now.

As for the EMP? If you are getting hit with EMP, you have more to worry about than your car stopping.

Better idea... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 07:18 · Score: 0

Weld the trunk shut.

(i.e. car for men - limits the amount of luggage you can take on a trip)

Maitnance Monopoly by Fiz+Ocelot · 2004-03-04 07:19 · Score: 1

So every time you wanted to do even the slightest maitnance under the hood you need to take it to an overpriced volvo dealership?

Oh that's right, I guess all women don't drive more than ten miles away from one, and don't mind paying high prices either.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by jafac · 2004-03-04 07:19 · Score: 1

Early fuel injection systems (like the Bosch D-Jet) isn't going to be susceptible to EMP either. MFI=Mechanical Fuel Injection.

--

These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by dasmegabyte · 2004-03-04 07:21 · Score: 1

I guarantee you no INTELLIGENT PERSON will buy a car if they can't see the engine.

Fuck man, when my wife test drove her car, she didn't even put the revs above 1000. She did 50 on the freeway. I had to ask her to pull over so I could find out if the thing had any power at all. I pegged it up to 5000.

She later berated me. "What if you'd broke it," she asked, "then we'd have to buy it!"

Serious, this is a woman with a BS in geology. Not an idiot. She didn't care about the engine, as long as it drove the car forward. She (rightly) assumed if she looked under the hood, she wouldn't be able to tell if anything was broken or not anyway, so what's the point?

But she pushed hard for a cheap extended warranty -- one that worked at her favorite shop. Which meant that even if there was a nest full of angry bees driving that car, she could get it fixed for free for the next 50,000 miles...

--
Hey freaks: now you're ju

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by gnu-generation-one · 2004-03-04 07:26 · Score: 1

"One EMP burst and every automobile that has an Engine Control Computer within range of the EMP is dead."

One regular nuclear blast, and all the drivers within range are dead. But some people still hope that that's not going to happen within the lifetime of their car, or within range of where they're driving.

A sporty-looking car with 225HP Hybrid Engine!?!?! by skintigh2 · 2004-03-04 07:28 · Score: 1

I would buy this in a heartbeat!!! Even if it is designed for chicks.

But, of course, this is a prototype, and it will be years, if not decades, before Volvo releases a Hybrid car. And they will never release this one. In fact, I doubt they even have a 225HP hybrid engine.

Why are Hybrid cars so god damned ugly? Even if there was a plane looking car that was convertible, like a Sebring, with a hybrid engine I would buy it today.

Instead, all that's offered are hedgehogs and pipe dreams.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by d99-sbr · 2004-03-04 07:28 · Score: 1

Volvo commonly puts the battery in the trunk these days.

Of course, with a car like this there's no knowing where the battery might be.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by jafac · 2004-03-04 07:38 · Score: 1

Also, I find that in most cases it's EASIER to work on my car with a computer.

. . . if money's no object, sure.

But for many older cars, working on them requires a MUCH lower investment in tools and equipment. A few hundred bucks at best. But even just getting started with BASICS of electronic engine control systems diagnostics is several hundred bucks, and working on anything advanced, you're talking in the thousands. (ie. not for beginners, or "the poor").

When I have a simple system that I have to tweak and adjust on a weekly basis, but there's only a few variables involved, but the symptoms are well known, and well understood, and simple to fix. Instead of having an electronic system make adjustments to cover for mechanical issues, I become aware of the state and progression of the mechanical issue, and can adjust and tweak myself, where appropriate, and replace - when my budget allows.
I'd rather have a no-start issue once every 6 months, and fix it by replacing a $10 set of points and condenser by myself in 10 minutes, than once every 5 years, the car pukes, and I have to deal with getting it towed in to service, pay $800 to get it "fixed" and have the problem repeat itself 1 week later.

For a "modern" engine, often you end up replacing $1000 components, with ctrl-alt-del style of trial/error. You say you had to "borrow" the auto parts store's scanner. For some of us, that's not an option, and where it is, it's certainly not as convenient as owning your own diagnostic equipment. And when that equipment consists of a $20 testing light, or at WORST, an $80 Timing strobe, that's easily within reach for most people. I can do it in my garage, I don't need to bum a ride to Pep Boyz, and wait in line.

I think the most expensive car-tool I own is a $300 CO meter, and that's really more of an advanced tuning tool, most people would never need one. Especially for a carbed engine.

--

These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Delta+Vel · 2004-03-04 07:40 · Score: 1

If you can find a woman who would buy a car with the hood welded shut, I can find a man who would also. Personally, I don't know anything about cars, but if I can't see the engine that means I can't learn how to fix it. Or y'know...have my dad do it.

--
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye. Then it's fun and games without depth perception.

I am not a woman, but.. by Axe · 2004-03-04 07:41 · Score: 1

I do not fix my car. I pay a professional to do that, I do not have time for that.

So what if the hood is shut? Mechanic can open it.

I do not recompile my Linux Kernel either. It is not the hood that matters: it is the legal conditions on who can do what.

--
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>

Next Car - a Red Barchetta by TYC · 2004-03-04 07:44 · Score: 1

With manufacturers pushing this kind of stuff on us, it looks like my next car will be a Red Barchetta...

"My uncle has a country place
That no one knows about..."

Assanine by ksemlerK · 2004-03-04 07:49 · Score: 1

This is retarded. There is NO WAY I would ever buy a car with a "1 piece" front end that only an authorised technician could remove. There is a couple reasons for this. The first one is that at the shop where my father works, the labor rate is $75.50/FLHR (Flatrate Hour). While a part may cost $20.00 like my heater core did, If I had a shop install it with the labor at 2.2 hrs, I would have to pay $166.10 in labor, $20.00 for the part, and 8.5% tax. This would bring the total to $201.92 for the installation of a $20.00 part. That is just assanine. I can install it myself for the cost of the part, and I don't have to sit in the damn waiting room wondering how much longer they are going to be fucking with my vehicle. Another reason, is that I do all of my own maintaindace. It takes me 15 miniutes to do a complete LOF, and I can get the oil, filter, grease, and fuel additive for only $16.00. A LOF at a shop would cost between $20.00 and $30.00. Much cheaper to do it myself. The last reason is that I like to fine tune performance, and I would not be able to do so if the "hood was welded shut". And I ghigly doubt that the technician would have approval from thier service manager to tweak my carborator to the 4 barrels open up under half load. I can roast anything thatis currently sold as a "sport car". I have beat a mustang, a Camero, and a firebird. And I have a 1981 Oldsmobile Delta 88. I may get 11 MPG, but I can roast the tires off of the line.

--
Get your free Dropbox account with 2 GB Free storage!

Re:Assanine by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 07:59 · Score: 0

How nice. Now go home and learn to spell

Why not? by gatkinso · 2004-03-04 07:50 · Score: 1

When is the last time you repaired your late model car yourself?

So people do, but most do not.

--
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.

IP in Cars by clockmaker · 2004-03-04 08:26 · Score: 1

So here is a larger problem. Or two. Do you own your car? Do you own the ECU (Engine Control Unit) in your car? Do you own the code on the ECU? Do you own the right to modify the code on your ECU? Is it legal for you to reverse engineer the code on the ECU? If a repair involves a firmware update, is it legal for an independent (non dealership) mechanic to make a copy from someone else's car (of the same model, etc) and put it on yours? The US has maintained that upgrading your radio to a third-party brand doesn't invalidate the warranty for the rest of the car. Fine. But what if the radio is software controlled, and you can upgrade to the manufacturer's premium model radio by simply clipping a jumper on the standard radio computer module? Have you just stolen something from the dealer/manufacturer? Hmmm....

fill 'er up... by joeslugg · 2004-03-04 08:26 · Score: 1

"So we shifted the filling station for washer fluid to the side of the car, next to where you fill up fuel, and we closed the bonnet for good."

Prediction 1: Gasoline sprayed on the windshield

Prediction 2: Blue-colored exhaust from trying to run the engine on windshield washer fluid

yikes

Trunk vs. Boot? by soft_guy · 2004-03-04 08:27 · Score: 3, Funny

My grandmother is about 80 years old and from rural Oklahoma. She refers to that part of a car as a "turtle hull". Apparently a common expression among country people.

--
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score

Stupid. by Axe · 2004-03-04 08:27 · Score: 1

I do use my cars for longer the 45,000. When free maintenance on my BMW runs out, I will be changing every 7,500, even though they recommend 15,000, and I change it every 5000 on my wife's Prelude. Only Mobil 1

I also have an acura that is way over 200K and runs smooth. Engine is in great shape and I commute in it.

Regular oil changes pay for themself in the long run. Ripoff is when you bring in your car with gummed and busted engine for major repairs.

--
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>

Re:It's a car for the clueless by einTier · 2004-03-04 08:32 · Score: 4, Interesting

My 1988 Toyota Celica did the same thing. It had several neat tricks like this.

First, if you had the headlights on and turned off the car, they would stay on until you opened the door. Opening the door with the lights on and ignition switched off caused them to go off. But, this could be overridden by simply switching the lights back on. Then they wouldn't go back off until you turned them off.

Second, if you had the keys in the ignition and the door open, you couldn't lock the power door locks. Well, you could, but they would spring open a half second later, no matter if you locked it manually or with the button. Better yet, you couldn't trick this one. I once had the door open, took the keys out, locked the car, then deliberately put the key back in the ignition. Then I shut the locked door. The Celica detected the locked door, the fact that it was shutting, and the fact that my keys were in the car, and unlocked the door! The only way to lock the keys in the car was somehow lock the door while it was already shut (meaning you were in the car or had an extra set) or by leaving them on the seat instead of the ignition (as I accidently did one wintery night).

I've often wondered why this wasn't implimented in more cars. It was unobtrusive, never interfered with how I wanted to use the car and kept me from hurting myself. That's the epitome of good design.

--
-------------------------------------------------- $665.95 -- retail price of the beast.

Two million miles in a Volvo P1800! by Lobo93 · 2004-03-04 08:35 · Score: 1

In general I agree with you, modern cars are definitely more effective and "smarter" than a car from the '60s. But I'm inclined to say that I find it more fun and way easier to work on my '81 245DL than my C70 T5. I don't know, it may have something to do with lack of knowledge and proper tools in regard to the modern and more complex engine of the C70 - well, yes, most definitely: the right tools are half the job when when you want to wreck havoc in the engine-room. ;)

Incidentally(not really, I'm a die-hard Volvo fan) and very on-topic, I found this article:

http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/020312-5.htm

in response to:

Try taking a 1969 car and driving it 120,000 miles without doing anything more than changing the oil.

From article:

"We like to say that 'there are cars, and then there are Volvos,' but there is more involved here than the wisdom of our engineers in developing a car that could last so long and travel so far. Irv's meticulous care of his Volvo over the years has played a significant role."

That pretty much says it all. And BTW, there's some very nice advice for all car owners at the bottom of the article.

--
"The only clear view is from atop the mountain of our dead selves." - Peter Carroll

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 08:43 · Score: 0

EGR valve? Let me guess, do you have a TDI?

Toyota Prius by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 08:44 · Score: 0

I just purchased a 2004 Toyota Prius. This is an incredible car with incredible technology. It has four 32-bit computers. It has a planetary gear set to control the torque distribution between the two electric motors and the ICE (internal combustion engine). There is no real transmission (not even a CVT, like many people claim). The computers control the whole ball of wax. Many of my friends and neighbors think it is a bad idea. "Who will fix it?" "Don't you have to get all the service done at the dealership?" This is what I would call a "virtual hood welding." But, anyone is allowed to fix it. Most good mechanics CAN fix it. The ICE is still the same (or similar anyway) as any car. The planetary gear set is actually simpler than a transmission. There is no starter or alternator to go bad. There are some new parts that people need to learn how to deal with. But over time, these will become the norm. I can see it now - "Hey Bubba, did you buy an aftermarket or dealership DC/DC inverter to repair your Ford Escape?" "Nah, I got a junkyard one. Gave me a nasty shock when I discharged the ultracapacitor though. Thought I was a gonner..." In addition, the fact that there are four computers in my Prius leads to lots of great hacks! I have had my Prius less than a month, and have already created two good hacks! (Hence my AC post - don't want to void the warranty). Granted, I am an engineer, and I used to work for one of the Big Three^H^H^H^H^HTwo in Detroit, and I am now working for a software group in a major semicon company, so the new tech doesn't scare me. The benifits outweigh the risks. Soon all cars will be this high tech.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by Chris+Y+Taylor · 2004-03-04 08:46 · Score: 1

"Besides, if you're within range of a nuclear EM pulse, you've probably got other things to worry about besides whether or not your car runs or not..."

Not neccesarily. If the weapon were used at high altitude to maximize EMP effects, you could be miles not experience any significant blast, radiation, or firestorm but still see EMP related effects.

"Several incidents related to the 1963 detonation of a 1.4 megaton nuclear device 250 miles above Johnston Island highlighted the potential effects of EMP. Immediately following the detonation,
the island of Oahu, Hawaii, which was located 800 miles from ground zero, experienced several power outages, the activation of hundreds of burglar alarms and the short-circuiting of thirty strings of streetlights (1). EMP is of great concern today. As the field of electronics has evolved from the vacuum tube era to today's integrated microcircuits which can handle only minute quantities of voltage current, its susceptibility to EMP has increased significantly. Consequently, this results in modern communications and electronics equipment being highly vulnerable to the power surges of EMP." -http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/report/ 1988/CM2.htm

Re:Would you buy a computer with a sealed processo by AvengerXP · 2004-03-04 08:52 · Score: 1

"You'd have to throw away the whole processor if a single transistor in it went bad, instead of just changing the transistor."

Changing transistors in processors? Oh yeah sure i do that all the time. Really. No Really.

--
Trolls dont like to be Flamebait, because they burn so well. Protect our Troll heritage!

A lot of porn movies... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 08:56 · Score: 0

"The mechanics would then contact the women directly to invite them over."

That sounds like the begining of a lot of porn movies I've seen!

Of this is a crazy idea by OriginalSpaceMan · 2004-03-04 08:56 · Score: 1

Volvo will never actually take this car into production, of course.

Wow, what do you get out of that comment? It's almost like saying... We will never make this car, it's a really stupid idea. We just want women to think that their opinion matters.

Ouch.

--

You talk better than you fool!

...but will anyone buy it? by dtjohnson · 2004-03-04 09:01 · Score: 1

Anyone can make a car with a welded hood but people still have to buy it. If you can choose between a welded hood and a 'legacy' hood, which would you choose? I think most people would go for the legacy model.

Re:It's a car for the clueless by ncc74656 · 2004-03-04 09:01 · Score: 1

Ordinary users shouldn't need to jump-start a car.

Don't even try to get us to believe you've never left the lights on. (Yes, I know that newer vehicles switch the lights on/off all by themselves, but that's a fairly recent development.)

(IHBT, but I don't think IHL.)

--
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.

Blame it on the Woman by thelizman · 2004-03-04 09:08 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Hello...genius...this was a car designed by women for women. Of course the hood is welded shut. Most women don't want to tinker with the engine - they don't even want to know what and where it is. They just want to get in and drive. How the hell did you ignore that fact and frame this story as a matter of OSS!?

Really a bad idea? by KlausBreuer · 2004-03-04 09:13 · Score: 1

Welllll... I'm going to loose my geek license, but...

You know, you can do nearly nothing with modern cars except stare adoringly at the engine. Back on my '68 Mustang, I could take the entire engine (351W) apart. On my last car, the Smart Roadster (http://www.smart.com), I could do exactly nothing except:

a) Change the oil
b) Fill up washer water
c) Laugh at the tiny engine (3 cyl, ca 50cc), which nevertheless kicked out 82 HP).

So - why let me at the engine? Yes, I was a gearhead. Yes, I loved it. But that time is over. Modern engines cannot be fiddled with by nuts like me, except the *real* nuts, who have an amazingly expensive pile of equipment.

And that car had a couple of other good ideas, like umbrella storage or that split headrest for ponytails :)

--
Free PC version of ChipWits at http://www.breueronline.de/klaus/chipwits/

Is this closed source for cars? by Redbubble2004 · 2004-03-04 09:30 · Score: 1

Could Volvo be protecting its technology in the same way Microsoft protects it software.
This will lead to similar problems. You can't fix what you can't see. I don't know what M.O.T. test will make of this. If you can't test it. How can you be sure its safe. Yes you can test the brakes to see if they stop the car. But what if the defect is in the master cylinder.
I know the testing of cars is exhustive, but it does not stop dangerous cars getting on the market. If the is an fault in seal section of the car. Could the company aford re-call the cars. I know I won't be buying something else I can't see working.

Re:What can a normal person fix in a new cars engi by Buran · 2004-03-04 09:48 · Score: 1

2000 Golf owner here.

The oil filler cap is very obviously labeled with a picture of an oil can and a warning not to overfill lest the catalytic converter be damaged. I've topped off the oil a couple of times with no hassle at all. The washer fluid reservoir and coolant reservoir are both labelled and the caps remove easily and they are translucent so that you can see if they need filling (plus the car has indicator lights in the cluster that light, and a beep sounds, if the levels are low.

The headlight bulbs are a pain to reach if you don't have small, nimble hands like I do; to get to them otherwise you have to remove the grille, the front bumper, and the headlight units, all of which are held on with Torx screws. Fortunately, I've gotten in a lot of practice in replacing the bulbs without taking anything off -- small hands help!

The battery box is right behind the left headlight and to get at the battery, you just pop the top off (the top is there to protect the battery terminals and the wires that take power to different parts of the car, including the OEM fog lamps in the E-code headlamps I installed due to being displeased with the light pattern and with VWoA's decontenting of US models. You don't need any tools to do that, though the box should really have a battery drawn on it to make it more obvious where the battery is.

The fuse box is on the left side of the dashboard and the covers (there are two, one the obvious one and one the larger one held on by larger clips) come off if pried gently with a screwdriver.

Have never had to replace the speakers, but have pulled the radio and CD player twice. It's easy, if you have the tools that slip into the slots on the radio.

The Golf is built by inserting the engine from the bottom when the car is on the assembly line, so it can be hard to get to a lot of things. But the Golf is nowhere near as bad as, say, the Boxster.

--
i am a soviet space shuttle

Safety? by AbbyNormal · 2004-03-04 09:55 · Score: 1

What about the safety of this? What happens if your engine/oil/or something else ignites? What do you do, just stand back and watch her burn?

Kick the tires, and light the fires would have a completely different meaning.

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Sig it.

A fruitless endeavor by lifs_lik_that · 2004-03-04 10:12 · Score: 1

How metaphorically incredible is this comparison !!!
Ever hear of comparing apples and oranges ??

Prodi.

I wonder. by bakuretsu · 2004-03-04 10:18 · Score: 1

Are women in general insulted that these know-it-all women at Volvo think they are unable to understand the workings of, or maintain, an engine?

I'm a man, and I support women's equal rights and all of that, but it looks as though even women are rallying to perpetuate the same stereotypes the feminists are trying to abolish. I suppose women who know how to fix cars will buy cars with hoods that open.

The car shouldn't be marketed toward women, but instead toward anyone who either doesn't understand, or doesn't care to understand, how to fix anything under their hood. Men included.

Anyway, the grille and headlights look pretty badass. I commend Volvo for abandoning the "Borg ship" look.

--

--
The Bailiwick - DESIGNHUB2005

You're joking, right? by zsz2k · 2004-03-04 10:30 · Score: 1

There are no "interlock switches" on any of the shields, it would be far too expensive and they'd die all the time. I've done significant work to my 2001 Audi. Try http://www.audiworld.com/forum/a4.html to find a large group of others who have also.

disconnect the battery for 3 minutes by zsz2k · 2004-03-04 10:34 · Score: 1

that will also clear the service indicator

Problems under the bonnet by freakmn · 2004-03-04 10:35 · Score: 1

The car should be programmed to discover any problems under the bonnet, then send a message to the garage to let them know.

The mechanics would then contact the women directly to invite them over.

I've dated a few too many girls with problems under the bonnet, so the mechanics han have them...

oh wait, they mean the hood!

--
warning: This post is likely to contain gobs of dripping sarcasm. Consume at your own risk.

Re:What's wrong with everyone. It's a concept Car. by Eskarel · 2004-03-04 10:35 · Score: 1

Personally I find that most oil change places will top off your washer fluid for you if it's low anyway for little or no charge so long as you're getting the oil changed at the same time, and that my oil needs to be changed a lot more often than my washer fluid.

Yes I could change my own oil, even with my somewhat limited knowledge of automobile mechanics I could do that, but my driveway is steep, my garage small, and then even if I trek the car out to somewhere flat and do it there I've still got to dispose of the dirty oil which is a pain.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by eofpi · 2004-03-04 10:37 · Score: 1

I recall reading somewhere (either Popular Mechanics' cover story on EMPs a couple years back or the e2 node about them) that they could be chained to produce significant EMPs. And yes, I agree that Ocean's 11 got it completely wrong.

--
Y'know, you blow up one sun and suddenly everyone expects you to walk on water.

2 years for your oil?!? by Fracture · 2004-03-04 11:19 · Score: 1

Oil should be changed a few times a year. Plus it should be checked regularly in case any leaks pop up.

Some cars are still realtivly easy to work on:
Jeeps and trucks are usually the easiest. But, overall the extra wiring for sensors and cramped engine compartments make new cars a pain.

I love working on my cars ('89 Jeep with a Chevy V8, and a '86 Jaguar with a '95 Corvette engine). Both cars are easy to work on and cheap to maintain. The Jeep I don't even need to jack up to change the oil! The Jag has a lot more wiring, but a V8 in a V12 engine bay leaves a lots room to play.

And speaking of engine fires - I saw a guy's beautifully restored classic get an engine fire on the road. The guy popped the hood and cut the radiator hose to put the fire out. It worked like a charm! He just got back in his car and drove it home (He may have had to stop a few times to keep his car from overheating). Having easy access to the $10 radiator hose saved his car.

Re:2 years for your oil?!? by HTD · 2004-03-05 10:03 · Score: 1

New cars really don't need oil change more often, of course offroad or race cars are different. If i owned such car i sure as hell want to be able to tweak it. My point was that joe averages car doesn't need to be customizeable - and in fact they aren't. The main reasons i see are technological advances like injection-controller-chips, and car companies want to have more work == money for their contracted-garages and spare-parts.

When i was serving in the army i drove trucks, mainly a "Steyr Pinzgauer" - there were 3 tools in the car: a hammer, a screwdriver and a screw-wrench. Out of curiosity i tried where the wrench would fit - everywhere, literally everywhere - i probably could have taken the engine apart and reassemble it using these 3 tools. This kind of car needs to be like that, because if you are stuck in the desert/mountains/wherever you'd better be able to fix that car yourself. But this car has no turbo for its engine, no direct injection, no silicon-chip in the whole car, no steering-support ("servolenkung" in german), it has no windowwashing system (there's a foot-operated-pump to spray water on the windshield ;)), it has no aircondition, no radio, no real heating sytem (engine is cooled by air only)... This certainly isn't a comfort car (well the military version at least) and there's the difference - it doesn't need to be compact or comfortable it needs to work and if it doesn't it must be fixable by anybody. And it needed to be fixed quite often during my time at the army. What it can do is go anywhere offroad and of course it looks cool when you have the 6x6 wheels version ;). BTW i love this car for all it does and doesn't, when i have enough money to fund a second fun car i will buy one of them.

Cars younger than 4 years aren't built with those principles in mind and that's why i see no point in being able to pop the hood of a new car, i wont (and i don't want to) be able to fix anything on those sealed car engines with direct turbo diesel injection and whatnot. I don't want a car that needs a fixup every month. I want to be sure that it starts anytime of the year and takes me where i want to. A second car behaving like the 1979 VW bug of my sister is fun to work with and tune, but if it's broken she just uses her normal car which she also expects to simply work.

u r dumb. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 11:20 · Score: 0

A liquid undergoing a phase change due to heat will always result in a pressure increase.

P=(rho)*R*T

Not so by riptalon · 2004-03-04 11:42 · Score: 1

When you say you're filling up your car with Petrol, it's a bit like saying you're taking the oil right out of the ground and immediately throwing it into your car.

Actually petrol is short for 'petroleum spirit' and is one product of the fractional distillation of petroleum. Other petroleum based products bearing its name include 'petroleum jelly' and 'petroleum ether'.

Re:Not so by arkane1234 · 2004-03-04 12:35 · Score: 1

Actually petrol is short for 'petroleum spirit' and is one product of the fractional distillation of petroleum. Other petroleum based products bearing its name include 'petroleum jelly' and 'petroleum ether'.

Do people outside of America call that Petrol, also?

--
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!

Re:Cars are cars, and I diagnose faster than the E by checkyoulater · 2004-03-04 11:50 · Score: 1

If you can figure out a kernel, then you can rebuild a car.

Give me a break. I can rebuild a kernel with 5$ worth of old computer parts. The same can hardly be said about an automobile. Even an old car worth about 5 dollars needs a few hundred dollars worth of tools.

--
Is that a real poncho? I mean, is that a Mexican poncho or is that a Sears poncho?

It's not a Volvo! by Guppy06 · 2004-03-04 11:52 · Score: 1

It's a Ford! Volvo doesn't make cars any more! I mean, calling it a Volvo is like calling those things Daimler-Chrysler churns out "Jeeps."

*sniffle* I miss my Swedish bricks...

Re:It's not a Volvo! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 12:08 · Score: 0

No. Volvo is a seperate company owned by Ford.

Calling it a Volvo is perfectly reasonable...because it is.

Dumbass.
Re:It's not a Volvo! by Guppy06 · 2004-03-04 12:12 · Score: 1

No, Ford only bought Volvo's car line. Volvo still builds semis, marine engines and the like on their own.

The car is not for women it's for Volvo by complexmath · 2004-03-04 11:55 · Score: 1

What benefit does sealing the hood provide? With today's autos, if you don't want to open the hood then you don't pull the lever. Simple as that. The difference in this case is that if you NEED to open the hood you're SOL. What does this mean in practical terms? Money for Volvo.

Say I'm driving my shiny new sealed car through the middle of nowhere and my fanbelt breaks. Unable to open the hood to replace it I call road repair service. They arrive with a fanbelt only to discover that my car is sealed and they need a winch to lift off the body, so they tow it to a nearby service station. Unfortunately, that service station is not an authorized Volvo shop and doesn't have the specialized Volvo tools to detach the body. They do some looking and find out that the nearest authorized Volvo repair service is 500 miles down the road. So I pay to have the car towed another 500 miles and pay the mechanics to lift off the body, replace the fanbelt, and reattach the body. Since this is a complex process the job takes four hours (including the wait because they have other jobs being done). At the end of the ordeal I'm out more than a thousand dollars, twelve or more hours of my time, and 500 miles out of the way just to get my fanbelt changed. At the same time, Volvo is guranteed revenue for even the smallest modification to the vehicle they've cleverly marketed at naieve luddites like myself. Sounds like a winner to me.

Never understood it... by Hassman · 2004-03-04 12:05 · Score: 1

I've never understood that argument:
A common argument used by open source advocates (myself included) in favor of open source is the simple question: 'Would you buy a car with the hood welded shut?'

90% of people never open their hood except for super routine maintenance (ie: patches). The other 10% only do it for fixing things they know how to.

So is the argument really has no basis. The real question would be, "would you buy a car that you had no involvment in making? That you couldn't look at the blueprints of?". (I know bad grammar) Of course you will. And in most cases, you can probably find them if you wanted.

Open source is good for developing and enhancing. Once you have a car, you're not going to enhance it in ways that you would need the 'source code'.

I'm not against open source...but the analogy sucks.

--
-Mark
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.

No.... Why Should I? by Jonsey · 2004-03-04 12:07 · Score: 1

If they're not smart enough to just make the whole hood one piece of sheet metal to start with, and instead actually make a hinged hood and then weld it shut, why would I buy from them?

Think about it, no?

--
I assert that my comment is only my opinion, not that of any employer, past, present or future.

Re:No.... Why Should I? by Herz · 2004-03-04 12:29 · Score: 1

It's not like reading the article could bring some clues..

The whole front of the car is one molded piece that can be removed to access the engine compartment.

--
In vino vici
Re:No.... Why Should I? by Jonsey · 2004-03-05 02:45 · Score: 1

No, see, that's what I was harping on.

I know a car manufacturer with a clue would be one-piece. That's smart. But if they were doing it like an aftermarket soloution, and doing all the work and THEN welding it shut, that'd be stupid.

It's not a comment about the car mentioned in the article, but in the headline provided. : )

--
I assert that my comment is only my opinion, not that of any employer, past, present or future.

My mum's car has this... by holizz · 2004-03-04 12:13 · Score: 2, Insightful

She can open it but it just has holes for oil and wiper fluid. Surely this is anti-competetive if only Skoda can open her bonnet (hood). (I'm just guessing that they can open it. I HOPE they can open it)
It's a Skoda um... Fabia/Felicia maybe? It might start with a f...

So we shifted the filling station for washer fluid to the side of the car, next to where you fill up fuel, and we closed the bonnet for good.

Yeah that's nice that it's been moved to a convenient place so you don't need to open the bonnet but surely moving a few tubes doesn't mean the bonnet should be permanently closed. What possible reason do they have for welding the thing shut? Let's see... there's aesthetics and there's anti-competitive practices. I'm sure it'll be for aesthetics when the competition comission ask them.

Re4ply to my own post by ishmaelflood · 2004-03-04 12:28 · Score: 1

as someone knowledgable above pointed out, the issue is not the fluid boiling while braking that is the problem, this would increase the brake pressure, if anything. The problem is that the heat soaks into the fluid after the braking event, which boils, and this pushes the fluid out of the lines into the reservoir. Then the fluid contracts as it cools, but does not suck the fluid back in, so the next time you hit the brakes the lines are partly empty and you get no brake pressure.

huh? analogy? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 12:38 · Score: 0

"A common argument used by open source advocates (myself included) in favor of open source is the simple question: 'Would you buy a car with the hood welded shut?"

Huh?

Uhh... if the hood was welded shut, the volvo mechanics couldn't work on the car either. what's with the cheap analogies?

Why in the hell would they weld the hood shut and not just have no hood at all?

A better analogy would be.. mechanics have special tools that regular home users can't access. . they are secret.
This welding analogy is stupid (I won't go into why drilling a weld out is exactly the same procedure for a volvo mechanic as a home user, too, and why that's the stupidst f*cking analogy I've ever heard)

My point is; quit using stupid analogies, they don't make sense.

Benzene? by handslikesnakes · 2004-03-04 12:56 · Score: 1

Don't you mean 'gasoline'?

Gas by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 13:19 · Score: 0

Gas is also short for Natural Gas.

I wouldn't put that in my tank unless I commute in a forklift.

Re: A real geek by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 13:30 · Score: 0

And we have better things to do than listen to your babble about how more important certain segments of your life is than learning about the fundamental aspects of something you entrust your life to daily.

Hg, now that's a fluid by bob_calder · 2004-03-04 13:55 · Score: 1

for turbines. You just chase it around till it gives up. Well it's not corrosive is it?

I remember being mad at my Dad for not letting me mine cinnabar one summer to make extra money and become a man. I will never know if I would have killed myself, but I'm grateful I didn't have the chance.

--
Any preoccupation with ideas of what is right or wrong in conduct shows an arrested intellectual development. (Wilde)

I think that's OK by cookiepus · 2004-03-04 14:35 · Score: 0, Troll

Here's why.

A normal person, if they open their hood at all, do it for one of the few reasons below:

1. Check fluids (breaks, oil, trans, window-washer, coolant)
2. Do a jumpstart / maybe change battery
3. Change light bulbs in headlights
4. Change spark plugs
5. Change air filter.

Most of these things are considered "advanced" as is, and most people pay someone else to do it.

Now, there's nothing that says that any of these things should be inaccessible if the hood is welded shut.

1. All these levels can be checked electronically, altering you well in advance of any impending problem. In which case you can go get it toped off.

2. There maybe a special plug somewhere in the car for doing jump starts. Or better yet some coputerized logic that prevents your stupid ass from walking away while the lights are on.

3. Light bulbs can be left changeable without forcing you to reach around from the engine. *

4. Modern spark plugs don't need to be changed all the time anyway.

5. The airfilter can be left externally changeable as well *

* Perhaps by allowing access from underneath...

Other than that, there's really no reason for you to go under the hood. If you're a real advanced home mechanic, just keep your 1969 Mustang running forever ;-) If you're not a mechanic, you're not even going to care whether you can physically open the hood or not.

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Ecce Europa - Web Design for Business

Get over yourself, yankee doodle by caitsith01 · 2004-03-04 14:38 · Score: 1

This just in... America is not the linguistic centre of the universe. President Bush is said to be "shocked and saddened" by today's news...

Welcome to the world of the 'English' language, where words can have... gasp... multiple meanings, and where words can also be DERIVED from other words without having the same meaning. Why not look in a wider range of sources, dictionary.com is good for this. Petrol is not an abbreviation, jerkface. Boot does not only mean 'a thing that covers your foot' or in your case 'a thing that should interact with your rear end rapidly as a result of your knee jerk AmericInglish generalisations (with an 's' in 'generalisations).

petrol

n : a volatile flammable mixture of hydrocarbons (hexane and heptane and octane etc.) derived from petroleum; used mainly as a fuel in internal-combustion engines

boot

3. A place at the side of a coach, where attendants rode; also, a low outside place before and behind the body of the coach. [Obs.]

4. A place for baggage at either end of an old-fashioned stagecoach.

--
Read Pynchon.

Thanks for the lecture by caitsith01 · 2004-03-04 14:48 · Score: 1

Actually, if you try looking in a decent dictionary (preferable non-american), petrol is actually a word in it's own right, not an abbreviation of petroleum. It is in fact an abbreviation, but of a French phrase, 'essence de petrole', which is what you would call 'gasoline.'

But thanks for the lecture all the same. IMHO 'gas' is *extremely* misleading, especially as there are cars that run on fuel that is 'gas' in the sense of 'not solid or liquid.' What do you call that stuff? What do you do if you want to talk about helium or hydrogen? The American way seems a lot more confusing to me.

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Read Pynchon.

Re:Thanks for the lecture by arkane1234 · 2004-03-05 03:55 · Score: 1

Actually, if you try looking in a decent dictionary (preferable non-american),

Why would I look in a non-american dictionary to find a word in my language? I speak American.

But thanks for the lecture all the same. IMHO 'gas' is *extremely* misleading, especially as there are cars that run on fuel that is 'gas' in the sense of 'not solid or liquid.' What do you call that stuff? What do you do if you want to talk about helium or hydrogen? The American way seems a lot more confusing to me.

The majority of vehicles on the road in America are powered by unleaded gasoline, so it's a pretty common thing to say "gas" the same way you say "net" when you talk about the Internet. It's not that confusing, really. The rare vehicle that runs on something else other than gas or diesel run off of either hydrogen, LP, or some other derivative. We call them by their respective names. If you want to talk about helium or hydrogen, I'd hope you wouldn't just call it gas, as this would be misleading because the person listening would be thinking "what type of gas?". You just need to designate what your talking about.

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-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!

America the intolerant by caitsith01 · 2004-03-04 14:59 · Score: 0

Poster was joking (sort of), but I am so damn sick of this attitude. Hey, guess what, people from other cultures actually read/post on this website too! Isn't it amazing?

Every time this comes up I am stunned by the ability of a small minority of Americans to criticise/make fun of/be surprised by other people's ways of speaking. Memo to those people: English is a language that actually developed for hundreds of years in another country, strangely named 'England.' Even more incredible, it continues to be used and developed in this far-off land as well as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, the Caribbean and about a jillion other places too. It may also shock you to learn that, to most of the rest of what we like to call the 'English speaking' world, your adaptation/degeneration of the language we use and love is alarming, amusing and altogether rustic in character. American English is to English English what southern Texas swamp-drawl is to a north-easterner. You are the Cletuses of the world.

Now shut up and mingle with the other cultures, dammit. Y'all.

--
Read Pynchon.

Volvo doesn't seem likely to do this by fishbowl · 2004-03-04 15:25 · Score: 2, Insightful

My Volvo, a 740 station wagon from 1991, is *extremely* simple and extremely shadetree-mechanic friendly. I put it in the same category as VW on this count. Or, 1950's - 60's American cars.

I have, single handedly and without many tools:

Changed (upgraded) the front and rear suspension, steering rods, and brakes.

Installed aftermarket torsion bars.

Changed the wheel geometry.

Installed an exhaust header and modified throttle body.

Upgraded the cooling system.

Changed the timing belt.

Now, granted, I'm something of an amateur mechanic with a good toolbox, but I didn't need anything special to do this stuff. There is NOTHING on this car that's at all mysterious. Even the electronics for the fuel injection aren't that strange. You open the hood, and it's *sparse* in there. There's no question what wires go where, what hoses are what, etc. And there's room to move around.

What's my point? *ALL* Volvos share this design. If they mess up the design, they'll only mess it up for the US market. Canadian and European models won't get that treatment, nor will any car destined for Israel. (When you pay a 100% tax on a car, you expect to be able to maintain it forever.)

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-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.

*sigh* by shop+S+Mart · 2004-03-04 15:41 · Score: 1

worst idea ever, atleast it's only a volvo

--
"all i wanted was a pepsi..."

Re:It's a car for the clueless by lnjasdpppun · 2004-03-04 15:46 · Score: 1

I'd hope they have some sort of "jumper socket" (and a high current cable with standard aligator clips on the end) that can be plugged into to the hood-challenged vehicle to allow a jump start from a normal car.

Re:It's a car for the clueless by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 16:00 · Score: 0

Maybe you just had a ground problem HaHa. Like when I had a car that pulsed the fuel pump when the mirror switch was pressed. Worked good on a rare extremely hot day when the fuel was hot and the car would just barely start, but needed extra help from the pump to gain more pressure. Or when I turned my stopped at a red light once and the doors locked automatically.. and there were burglars running toward me.

Or were those features really implemented in that car (joking..)

Software / Car Comparison by AnalystX · 2004-03-04 16:28 · Score: 0, Troll

What the!? I've never spent over $20,000 on a software package. Of course if I did, I might actually want to get under the hood to work on the code. The comparison doesn't work for another very important reason though: Cars are mechanical, for crying out loud!!! Anything mechanical tends to need maintenance access points. Software has no moving parts, so nothing needed but to run it.

Buy her a gun. by snarkasaurus · 2004-03-04 17:15 · Score: 1

The major difference between Britian and the USA is that American women have the right to defend themselves against cruising muggers, and British ones don't.

Buy the poor woman a pistol AND a phone. When she inevitably breaks down outside the cell phone's range she can safely depend upon the good will of the 99.95% of normal American citizens.

Usualy (90%+) the sight of a dainty revolver is more than enough to dissuade evildoers. Just one of those annoying facts that Her Majesty's Government is hell bent to ignore in its pursuit of citizen disarmament.

God made man and woman. Sam Colt made them equal.

Re:It's a car for the clueless by Galvatron · 2004-03-04 17:24 · Score: 1

You know what I found kind of weird? I had a '95 Corolla in high school, and it had the same headlight deal (not the door locks though, which was unfortunate, I locked myself out 2 or 3 times). Anyway, I totalled the car about a year after graduation, and just recently my parents bought my youngest brother a 2000 Corolla S model. Unlike the model I had, the S model has power windows, a cd player, and a much nicer interior. But it doesn't have the headlight feature! What happened? Did Toyota decide it was a bad idea? Anyway, I thought that was very unfortunate.

--
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD

so I'll use a cutting torch... by func · 2004-03-04 17:38 · Score: 1

I've been riding around with a full set of tools anyway, fixing hybrid locomotives, so a torch would be an easy addition. Everything can be changed, some things just take a little more work. That's not to say I'll ever buy a Volvo though...

boxy but good doesn't cut it for me. :)

Re: A real geek by Galvatron · 2004-03-04 17:39 · Score: 1

I HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DO

Like posting on slashdot? Yes, yes I see...

--
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD

A car for men with the hood shut--- by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 17:56 · Score: 0

The TVR Tuscan (400HP British musclecar) has a hood that is bolted shut. There is a smaller sub-hood in front that allows you you add washer fluid, oil. etc--- but per http://www.b-link.co.uk/talkingtvr/tuscanspeedsix. htm

'Many of the features which make this car extraordinary are there for sound engineering reasons but the simplicity and elegance of their form that they have been left on show. For instance the unusual bonnet arrangement, whereby the main piece of the bonnet is bolted into the car, is there for the reason that it is in most racing cars. It is actually lightly stressed and that means that it is able to duct the air flow very precisely. There is a low pressure exit for hot air and an intake for cold air for the engine situated in a high pressure area.'

This car is not some ultra rarity, either--- it costs 45000 pounds (Viper in the UK costs over 65k) and is definately a car any man would be happy with.

Re:A car for men with the hood shut--- by shop+S+Mart · 2004-03-04 20:30 · Score: 1

yea but the tuscan is a badass car that can hold it's own against the ferrari 360, this is a volvo that will be owned by soccer moms the tvr has a good reason for having it's hood bolted closed, what's volvo's excuse? unbolting the hood > having to have some volvo tech open it

--
"all i wanted was a pepsi..."

No, no, it's designed for the *mechanics*! by Behrooz · 2004-03-04 18:06 · Score: 1

The car should be programmed to discover any problems under the bonnet, then send a message to the garage to let them know.

The mechanics would then contact the women directly to invite them over.

Sounds like this car is only designed for women on the surface. The real beneficiaries of this system would be the mechanics.

"Ooh, look at that hottie in the volvo. Quick, get it to report an engine fault so we can get her phone number."

I mean, really, think about it. Although I suppose this could be win/win for the ladies too... although they'd probably end up lobbying for higher standards when hiring mechanics. Tall, dark and handsome perhaps?

--
"We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in tolerance and free speech." - David Brin

Using the word "idiosyncratic" regardig safety by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-04 20:27 · Score: 0

Is it just me or does this use of the word say something about this journalist or car journalists in general?

"Volvo is a subsidiary of Ford, and the Swedish carmaker's idiosyncratic insistence on practicality and safety seems to be spreading within the group."

From Roget's II: The New Thesaurus:

Idiosyncratic

ADJECTIVE: Deviating from the customary: bizarre, cranky, curious, eccentric, erratic, freakish, odd, outlandish, peculiar, quaint, queer, quirky, singular, strange, unnatural, unusual, weird. Slang : kooky, screwball. British Slang : rum, rummy2. See USUAL.

AFAIK cars kill more people worldwide every year than any other tool in civilian hands.
And insisting on practicality and safety is "Idiosyncratic"?

1970 Pinto == 2000 Crown Victoria by mrdrivel · 2004-03-04 22:07 · Score: 1

In the 1970's the gas tank on Ford Pintos could explode when rear ended. In the 2000's the gas tank on Ford Crown Victorias can explode when rear ended.

Your right though, it's not 1970 anymore. The difference, the Crown Victoria has a bigger gas tank. But people are still being killed due to poor design.

Because of incidents like this and poor quality ratings in general (from places like Consumer Reports) perhaps the negative image of Ford is not unfounded.

Re:computers + internal combustion engines = stupi by jridley · 2004-03-05 00:04 · Score: 1

Ford Taurus.

BTW, according to some web sites, the code I read out "EGR flow insufficient" is THE most commonly read out code.

Re: A real geek by freejamesbrown · 2004-03-05 03:21 · Score: 1

too true! doh! :)
m.

Hidden agenda? by inline_four · 2004-03-05 05:57 · Score: 1

The car should be programmed to discover any problems under the bonnet, then send a message to the garage to let them know.

The mechanics would then contact the women directly to invite them over.

This is a little creepy, no?

--
Alexey

i'd never let this woman borrow my car by mudweasel · 2004-03-05 07:27 · Score: 1

"Honestly, the only time I open the bonnet on my car is when I want to fill up washer fluid," said Tatiana Butovitsch Temm.
"Do we need to have a one metre square hatch for that or could we do it in another way?
"So we shifted the filling station for washer fluid to the side of the car, next to where you fill up fuel, and we closed the bonnet for good."

Uhh, do you ever change the oil..?

--
mudweasel "and i wudda gotten away with it too if it hadn'ta been for you meddling kids."

Errr you're a bit late on that by fw3 · 2004-03-05 12:23 · Score: 1

Autos are sold at barely over cost, and have been for decades.

The auto companies indeed make most of their profit on manufacturing parts. I don't know the exact figure but if you price the dealer-parts-counter cost of assembling a vehicle it comes up to several times the purchase price of the whole thing.

The dealership probably makes most of *it's* profit on the combination of repair labor and parts mark-up.

And while I'm the exception I do nearly all of my own work thanks. The *only* vehicle work that I've had done by a shop in the last 8 years were recall / warranty repair issues.

Shop labor rates run $75/hour. I don't clear anywhere near 1/2 that much after taxes so it's a clear win to do my own maint. / repair. See Thoreau for the full discussion :-)

--
Linux is Linux, if One need clarify their dist: <Dist>/GNU Linux
bsds are of course just BSD

Rest of the World: The Humorless by the_mad_poster · 2004-03-05 15:30 · Score: 1

Chill, man. You'll pop an artery. It was just a joke. Note the self-effacing humor in the "shootin' stick maw" part of the comment.

Besides, damn Brits can't cook either. You don't see me pointing out that all their food tastes like they took the cow patties out of the field instead of the cow, do you? Now THAT would be low.

-- Cletus.

--
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!

...as a late thought... by flynns · 2004-03-15 06:18 · Score: 1

...if your hood is welded shut, how in the world will you make the universal "my car be broke!" signal of popping your hood on the side of the road? ...stupid question, maybe, and a little late, maybe, but...there ya go.

--
'If you're flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit.'

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Your Future Car's Hood Will Be Welded Shut

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