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Can Star Wars Episode III Be Saved?
mcwop writes "MSNBC is running a commentary asking: 'Can "Star Wars: Episode III" be saved?' It proposes changes such as ripping off Akira Kurosawa, getting the otherwise good actors to emote, and even firing Lucas. It is one year away, but is it too late to save Episode III?"
no.
I see a bright future for the Star Wars prequels. Unfortunately, it's a more distant future than one year away.
Wait 20 years or so. The original trilogy will continue to be seen as a seminal work, and the "prequels" as a bastardized ripoff. Eventually, Lucas will die, or otherwise give up the franchise (maybe Michael Jackson can trade his Beatles songs for it).
Then, finally, someone can remake parts I through III the way they should have been done in the first place. No midchlorians, no virgin birth, no Jar Jar. Special effects that compliment the story, instead of overshadowing it.
Some future screenwriter and director will have the opportunity to give us back the thrill we had in the '70s, when we saw the original Star Wars in a non-multiplex theater, and were in awe. We who were preteens will be in our 50s... it won't be too late.
Something to look forward to! Just not in 2005.
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
It can't be saved, because it is exactly what people demand. American culture makes this movie inevitably what it will be. Does this condemn Lucas, or the low standards of the viewing consumer?
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
Save or save not. There is no try!
Does Lucas know how people feel? Does he listen to the criticism? Does he realize it is hurting his reputation as a filmmaker? Is that his real neck or did he get implants? Am I asking too many questions???
I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
I.e. to cash in on the success of the original series. It doesn't have to be *good* to do that. It only has to have "Star Wars" in the title.
It'll serve it's purpose. Unless you are planning not to bother going to see it, which as geeks and nerds, I frankly don't believe.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Killing off Jar-Jar in the supossed lightsaber duel while surfing on lava scene would help.
Makes sure it's a slow painful death with lots of burning from the lava. Tape his mouth shut too, so I don't need to hear his stupid voice. I say R2D2 should be the one that "accidentily" pushes him in. Cuz R2 is the comic relief pimp.
Sigs? We don't need no stinking sigs!
"changes such as ripping off Akira Kurosawa". Already done. Check out The Hidden Fortress.
Well, call me crazy, but how can surfing on lava not save a movie? Is there a better way short of two car chases in a single movie?
The script is done..they're filming now...too late this franchise has jumped the shark. I think the working title is Darth and Robin...
If you save episode 3, you lose the result of finally driving a nail into the star wars franchise.
Think of it: one good move after at least 3 crappy sequels. Statistically, if you encourage this jackass to keep on making movies 75% will be shit.
Please. Let it die.
Maybe the thrid one will be really good and the first two were actually elaborate pranks by Andy Kaufman.
it's a sig, wtf?
Lousy minor setbacks! This world sucks! -- Homer Simpson
OK, OK. Ep 1 blew fairly large chunks (it was 90% eye candy and 10% story). Ep2 was rather enjoyable (if you track past eh Padame/Anakin love scenes and the Droid Factory).
Mr. Lucas had this story in his head MANY moons ago. Why in the hell should he not finish his vision?
Disclaimer: Yes, ok, I have high hopes for ep3 even after the mess that 1 and 2 were...
I'm not a prophet or a stone-age man,
I'm just a mortal with potential of a super man.
Make it a musical! Use a lot of trendy pop-culture jokes and cliched music. Obi-Wan and Anakin surfing during the lightsaber battle is brilliant! BRILLIANT!
Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
Just get Justin Timberlake to do a cameo! Hey maybe he can even bring along the other guys from N'Sync and have a reunion too! Wow that would kick ass!
on how much we get to see Yoda, and how little we see Jar Jar (no Jar Jar would be VERY good).
-Wes
Like Battlestar Galactica , somebody will eventually re-make Star Wars a few decades from now.
In the new version, Luke Skywalker will be a woman...
When Lucas shows up, knock him out, encase him in a block of frozen carbonite and put him out of the way somewhere until the movie is out in theaters.
The only problem being, of course, that you shouldn't let him out after Ep. 3 lest he decide to somehow sully my other fond childhood memories, perhaps by stealing my box of photos and defecating in it.
Anyhow, the article addresses the basic irony of Star Wars: That the guy who created it has also done the most the drive it into the ground, and that success has allowed him to do so more completely than ever. We all knew going in that Lucas can't direct, he can't write dialog, and yet here we go again...
Personally, I just thank God that this decade has had the LOTR trilogy to call its own. It was what we were hoping the new Star Wars movies would be.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
LOTR > Star Wars
Note to everyone not named "George Lucus": Star Wars isn't yours. Yes, I know you're a fan. Yes, I know you grew up with these films. But it's a few pieces of entertainment, and the brainchild of another person.
I'm sorry you viewed the first films through the rose-tinted glasses of youth, and are unable to view the latest three in the same way. Feel free to bitch and moan about how it's not up to some mythical "standard" you create, but it comes down to it being Lucus' movie, and he can do as he pleases.
As always, please remember to sign the petition for the release of the theatrical version on DVD here: http://www.hanshootsfirst.org
Maybe if they removed the surfing scene, or deleted Poochie altogether, everything would be okay.
(Note: Poochie died on the way back to his home planet)
Damn thing is not even finished yet.
Besides its Lucas's concept and franchise, he can do what ever he wants with it. How do you know he is not pulling one of the biggest practical jokes in history by producing an increasingly dire series that people still fork out shedloads to watch?
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
Star Wars is whatever Lucas makes it to be... it is what it is. There's no "saving" it just because we may not like the direction it took... it's the direction Lucas wanted to take it and we gotta live with that. It's his baby.
Can somebody please explain to me how there are these thousands upon thousands of discussions on Star Wars throughout the internet, and only a miniscule percentage of them even acknowledge the 800 pound gorilla in the room -- that the series is largely an exploration of Lucas' rather exclusivist and no terribly enlightened religious beliefs. Sure, as watchers of ep 4-6 we were willing to let that slide because, well, it was a fun story, but if you're going to be discussing the movies, their future, and how they pertain to Lucas, you can't not talk about this.
With fire. Lots of fire.
Burn all the copies of it. Burn the computers that the digital bits are stored on. Burn down the buildings that warehouse it all.
Burn anything with Episode I or Episode II on it.
Burn every trace of the "special" OT editions.
Wonder in amazement at how awesome the OT really is. Reminice about your childhood and how much those movies really mean to you.
There will be another.
I'll go see Episode III for the same reasons I went to see Episodes I and II. It's there. It's more Star Wars. It's a decent enough story, but deep down it's just schlock.
Face it. Episode IV is just a good schlocky Sci-Fi Fantasy that was both fantastic and familiar.
I hated the ewoks about as much as I hate Jar-Jar. It was just cutesy, kiddy crap added to appeal to the younger audience. I tried not to let it destroy the fun of having more Star Wars.
If Episode I was the best Lucas wanted to give us, then that's what I'll take. Episode II was a vast improvement, and I expect Episode III will be good enough for me.
In the meantime, if I want to watch something with real quality, that isn't schlock, I'll watch LOTR.
Visit Lockjaw's Lair. He won't bite.
If the release date is 1 year from now, the movie is already 3/4s done, all that remains is market testing and franchising. Maybe the community needs to make a entire new movie. Open Film (like open source). We can get together on a script, and with enough people the financing shouldnt be too hard. Why let 'hollywood' have all the fun making the movies.
Jon Bardin
So in your bizzaro world, people should go to the movies, if they don't like it, they should just keep their goddamned mouth shut, and stop making fun of Lucas.
Sorry, if Lucas doesn't like the criticism, then he should be the one to shut up.
And you, you my friend, are, are simply, amusing.
that parenthood ruins everything: episodes 4-6 limited muppet action, people being frozen in carbonite, princesess being enslaved by hutts, death stars destroyed 2; episodes 1 and 2 too much telituby reject jarjar, and not enough yoda kicking butt, death star (or equivalent) destroyed 0.
lose != loose
Can Star Wars Episode III Be Saved?
It is one year away, but is it too late to save Episode III?"
from the nope dept.
Ahh you slashdot editors! Which one is it?
Im dreaming ofa big bndwdth, That can resist the
I was uber disappointed when I saw ep1, and again when I saw ep2.... But watching them several times out side of the theater; they are actually quite good... I think my expectations were set so high for the movies that I never got into them... Although, LOTR did not seam effected by this Phenomenon.
Star Wars will be saved much like how Alderaan was spared by Tarkin in Ep 4.
I'm assuming that no one here as seen the finished movie. So how can one ask the question "Can a movie be saved?" before knowing if it needs to even be saved.
Of course, based off episode 1 and 2, I'm guessing Jesus couldn't save the thing...
Forget the whales - save the babies.
Yes it is too late to "save" EP 3. Most of us will still go and see it, some will say that it was pretty good and some will say that it outright sucked the balls of a wookie.
But presumably he wants us to see the baby.
Oh, and pay to watch.
At the moment he asks us to pay, then we are given the right to criticize and make suggestions to improve it.
Unless you think Lucas is going to give away episode 3 for free?
The movies may be lame but the books have been great over the years. The games seem to get high ratings too.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
Yes.
Have Ghyslain play a part. Everybody loved his acting ability, and it seems that our expectations for the real actors are so low that it couldn't possibly make it any worse.
The Cheese Stands Alone.
It's just like suggesting that Douglas Adams be fired for not writing the Hitchhiker's Guide series to whatever magical expectations you are looking for.
Technically, Star Wars is an action film with some backstory sprinkled in - just like most action films written at the time. If you want to change Episode 3 into a movie that has a high-quality drama, then it will require re-writing all the other six episodes to bring it up to standard. Otherwise, the original episodes 4-6 will look extremely boring.
If you want drama, watch a soap opera. Expecting drama to come out of an action flik is the most stupid thing ever.
It asks to come back to ripping off Akira Kurosawa, who did the same to Shakespeare, who did the same to many people.
Change "Star Wars" to "The Constitution" and "George Lucas" to "forefathers". Forward that post to George W. Bush.
While I do think you're a complete moron for saying "this consumer good isn't ment for consumers, but for the satisfaction of the person creating it", I will say the blame doesn't lie entirely with Lucas. The reality is if people didn't go to multiple viewings of Episode 1 & 2, buy the DVDs and all the crappy merchandise that came with it, we wouldn't see a shitty 3rd movie. But people are stupid and will pay to see just about anything (See Torque, Bad Boyz, 2 Fast 2 Furious, etc). In this market a snuff film (Passion of the Christ) with no point other than to shock the Hell out of you can make hundreds of millions of dollars if given the right name and marketing spin.
George Lucas is like a drug dealer. Sure, he's selling a product that people consider to be bad, but the fact is he wouldn't be around if there wasn't a market for his trash.
Yes, it could be saved. Fire lucas, hire David Brin. His misguided/evil Yoda plot line is brilliant. He's correct when he says, "Almost the entire list of awful coincidences and silly paradoxes can be eliminated...It could even go down in history as something profoundly moral and clever."
I already told several people that I will not be seeing Ep III because Brin's conclusion to the series is so much better than anything Lucas could come up with.
"Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
I think that goes for OS's too
Star Wars was supposed to be cowboys in space. It was not expected to become the cult classic it turned out to be. Lucas was all about the money when he made the first 3 and not much has changed.
I said this during the poll so its slightly appropriate.
I think the major problem with P1 and P2 is that they are mearly action stories set in a Star Wars setting. Just like any game, just tossing well known characters into well known settings and expect something cool to come out is a recipe for disaster.
As I mention in my poll post, Yoda is less interesting in P1 & 2. Yoda is an action figure here. In P5, he did not once pick up a lightsaber or show Luke anything about fighting. Instead he guided him as best he could with ideas of what Jedi are based on: The force is everwhere, the force is your ally, the dark side is terrible but not stronger.
P3 needs some TLC in the themes and ideology department. It is amusing but the most "humanizing" moments of P5 were between Luke and Yoda. In P1 and P2 you get a vague indication that bad people are doing bad things. Why are the things they are doing all that bad? Because the Republic says so? Why are the Sith guys so bad? Because they look mean and chop people in half and do cool choke moves?
With P1-3 it looks like they are looking for a story to put SFX up on the screen. In P4-6, the SFX grew out of the story. If the movie is all but done in post production there is little that can be done now except ride the lava wave.
Lucas will do what he wants come hell or high water. Stick with the old school Star Wars and write off the rest as a bad dream. There are better movies and better directors now. Two other items. I can't fault the creativity of the artists working in the SW universe. What they create with the amalgamation of art and machines is without peer. On another note I foresee a Star Wars TV show in 2006-7 timeframe.
The whole Star Wars franchise was always, from day one, supposed to be a pulp "Saturday Matinee" sort of pulp serial.
It has a campy, heavily derivative space opera story line. It's been pieced together with black and white heroes and villains, both of which make the audience boo and giggle at the same time.
To fix one is to break the series. Most die-hard Star Wars fans are fans because they were kids when they saw the originals. Hell, many of you weren't even BORN to watch the original in the theaters in 1977. The series hangs together precisely because it is all schlock, and yet we love the characters anyway.
[
Honestly, I haven't thought at all about whether Ep3 is gonna be good or bad. I had expectations for Ep1 and was dissappointed. I had no expectations for Ep2 and was mildly entertained (much more so than Ep1), so I'm going to approach Ep3 the same way; I think a lot of people here might help their enjoyment of the movie by not thinking about this film and just waiting to see it when it comes out. Hype of any type ruins just about anything.
"What can a thoughtful man hope for mankind on Earth, given the experience of the past million years? Nothing." -Bokonon
"Saved?" Don't get me wrong, I found the prequels to be pale imitations of the original, um, first two... Basically following the downward trend of RoTJ. But what does Lucas care? He doesn't exhibit the least sense that he's making shoddy movies dressed up in ridiculously baroque special effects, he's making a fortune, it all gets marketed up the yin-yang, he's beloved by little children and most of the hardcore nerds just think they're okay... and hell, what can I say - I'll be ponying up my 10+ bucks to be dissapointed yet again sometime around mid-June '05, just like freaking last time. Nothing to fix there - at least from the perspective of them as are paying for it. And their perspective is all that matters.
It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries
The movies are just fine. As a matter of fact they are great! Awesome! Stupendous, marvelous and incredible in their breathtaking ambition and scale. Truly, George Lucas continues to outdo himself.
The films aren't the problem. The viewers are. Anyone who trudges up to the ticket window and parts with their hard earned cash is treated to something beyond their imaginings, unless, and this is the big UNLESS, they have already been influenced by the whiners and crybabies who are now 30 something, 40 something or older and think they know everything about how a proper epic sci-fi adventure flick oughta be (Cue: "Worst movie, ever!") The older viewers continue to overlook how their own expectations have been molded (or moulded) by all sorts of sci-fi films since EP:IV made its debut, how accustomed they are to the spectacle, how utterly ordinary special effects have become.
It's a bit like the Blinkenlights signs. It's alright. It's fine. It's a film targeted to a young audience and trying to compete with myriad influences which jade even ten year olds now. It could be the best movie ever and the sad reality is there will still be those who can't sit down, shut up, enjoy their popcorn and watch the film and follow the story.
Can they be saved? Perhaps it's time for them to wake up from their tortured dreams and go watch some other genre. Maybe western movies will make a comeback.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Minor points: (1) Joseph Campbell died in 1987, and (2) the interview series with Bill Moyers was basically sponsored by George Lucas, was filmed on Skywalker Ranch, and includes lots of footage from Star Wars. I think Lucas is pretty explicit about his influences here.
or do like the 80's show Dallas and have it all be a dream sequence and make a Good Movie for a change.
Its far too early to save it.
I reckon I'll be 'saving' it to a couple of CD-Roms in about a years time....
RM
I have no sig yet I must scream.
One interesting thing I've found about people who tend to be tough critics with movies is that they tend to lose out on the "fun".
By that I mean, what is the loss of actually enjoying a bad movie? What's the gain of hating it? I think I find myself rather lucky to enjoy most movies, even if they suck ( I was even able to stomach the Super Mario Bros Movie ). That way I rarely come out of a theatre feeling ripped off. And just because you enjoyed a bad movie doesn't mean you can't appreciate the good ones as much as everyone else.
I've come to really appreciate movies like Memento and Shrek.
So, does anyone care to explain the loss of enjoying a bad movie? I personally enjoyed EPI and EPII, although I didn't think they were the best movies on earth, I didn't come out the theatre with the obligatory "worst movie ever".
Lukas a long ago admitted that StarWars is Akria Kurosawa'a "Hidden Fortress."
Here's how to save it. Vader kills so many people on a ship that's he's knee deep in blood, a la Snow Crash.
Talking Pie.
They'll forget all the mistakes of the past if you add such a character.
I know we all like to assume things here, but has anyone here actually seen the movie yet? No? Okay then, how do we know it NEEDS to be "saved"?
I've got this mat here with conclusions written all over it. You know what to do.
Some fan films aren't doing too bad, I mean they pretty much all suck, but there are some that are not so bad considering they have almost no budget. Maybe we should thow 50,000 bucks at a few of hte best ones and see what they can do with some money, maybe we can have some full length fan films worth watching.
I'm a Kurosawa fan myself. I just want to clear things up. I've been hearing a lot about the origional Star Wars "ripping off" Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress. The article says the entire story was lifted from that movie. Have any of you seen the Hidden Fortress? Sure Lucas was inspired by that movie, but Star Wars is nothing like The Hidden Fortress.
As far as the article. I agree that Hayden Christensen is terrible as Dart Vadar. As well as most of his other points, especially the typical overuse of cgi effects which made me feel as if i was watching an videogame cut-scene the whole time. But one that he forgot to mention is the unbelievably forgetable characters who populate the script.
If we've already established that he drew heavily on Kurosawa, who stole from Shakespeare, then doesn't that prove prior art? I say no patents for Lucas - he has proven to be untrustworthy with his own property. Don't we go in and take over countries when the leaders fall short of our expectations? yes we do. we need a multi-national, liberation force to go to hollywood, and free star wars from it's oppressors. viva la liberte!
Wine, music and cinema are the three great creations of humanity. -T'Ian Han
I couldn't agree with you more. Its a shame that people aren't entertained by this even a little. I mean they pay their $8 and it wasn't fun? I am curious to know how many people from this list bought the dvd.
I enjoyed all the movies, and while there were some parts that I thought could have been better but I thought they were great especially in the theatre.
I'm so tired of listening to the hordes of "comic-book guys" bash George. Making movies is hard. When you have your own successful series of movies, jump-start an entire industry, then you can bitch. George is a really decent guy. For those who don't know anything about him beyond Star Wars, he's quitely helped scores of outside groups, treats his employees very decently, and is a good citizen. Is Star Wars without faults? No. Do you have a right to bitch? well, yeah (this is slashdot), but unless you've done something equally notable, spare me your armchair quarterbacking.
Eric Raymond best explains why the Star Wars prequels are failing in his description of computer systems:
There's a phenomenon we call second-systems syndrome, where you design an early system that does 80 percent of the job. It's fairly lightweight, and you notice all the things you should have done Then you go back for the second system, and often there's a tendency to go overboard to the point where it collapses under its own weight.
Episode's I and II is all about boring politics and unimaginative character origins. IV and V was all about Luke and Darth and their surrounding characters. If III is to survie, it's got to be more about the Star Wars characters and less about the Star Wars universe.
Ruby on Rails Screencast
Lucas will never allow anyone to do anything with Star Wars. In fact, his best buddy Steven Spielberg has already spoken about this. Lucas feels that the Star Wars saga will be his legacy and he doesn't want anyone messing with it. Spielberg practially begged Lucas for a chance to direct a Star Wars film and Lucas said no. So I can't see Lucas willingly giving up control to anyone. And with the new copyright laws, his family will be able to control Star Wars indefinitely. So you can forget about a Star Wars film ever being made by anyone with talent.
GMD
watch this
It only needs saving in the eyes of the viewer who hasnt seen it yet.
It's not your baby to save... it belongs to Lucas. He's fronting the money for the movie... It is his vision, his masterpiece, therefore it is his to destroy or save.
I'm inclined to believe that in his eyes he is doing the story justice.
Besides, you're going to go see it anyway. Why whine about it until afterwards?
Like the Beatles started an important new trend for popular music, were masters of the genre, and left people in amazement, so too did Star Wars for sci-fi/action movies. When they came out, there was nothing like it and there wasn't anything that quite matched it for a long time as well.
Look at the Beatles now, while they should be reconized for what they did, most of the music itself hasn't aged well and the few gems that are there don't sparkle any more than current music. And don't get me started on Paul McCartney recent work!
Similarly, if you look objectively at the "original 3", without thinking of how you were amazed the first time you saw them, they are not that good when it comes to story line either. Just compare the little ape-men to Jar-Jar and his people, the rubish compressor to the droid factory and the whole Luke/Leia relationship to the Amakin and queen Armadillo one....
The truth is that there is so much out there these days that is as visualy spectecular, we care about a good story line again. In my opinion the new movies aren't any worse than the old ones, they just aren't _better_, and that is what people, without realizing it, are really expecting.
At the end of the day, they are damn good entertainment if you ask me, and that's what counts.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I actually LIKED the first two movies. Granted, Phantom Menace didn't exactly rise to the level of Empire Strikes Back, but it was still an alright movie. I didn't really see anything wrong with Episode II - I actually enjoyed it a lot.
You would think from all the ranting and raving you always see on here that I'm in the minority, but well, you know.....those two films DID make a LOT of money..... So, SOMEONE out there must have liked them because they sure spoke with their wallets. *shrug*
I dunno. Sometimes I think people had some unrealistic expectations of the prequels, based on memories of movies they saw as kids 20 years ago. Imagine yourself as the same kid from 20 years ago watching the two prequels and I'd be willing to bet you'd have liked it a lot better than you do now as an adult.
Just my opinion, for what it's worth....
-Ken
I better go watch "The Hidden Fortress" first. Seeing a movie that copied the original not only misleads me to believe that they wrote it but it also dilutes the value of seeing the original Kurosawa film for the first time.
For example:
"Yojimbo" - Fistful of Dollars
"Sanjuro" - For a Few Dollars More
"Seven Samurai" - 13th Warrior, Three Amigos
I may be too late though. They say that parts of "Hidden Fortress" were copied in Star Wars IV:
Newsgroup Posting
Maybe that would explain why the prequels don't compare.. he's run out of other plots to pay homage to?
It may be too late for Episode III. Lets just hope Episode IV can be saved - oh wait...
For Episode III, rip off Kurosawa's ripoff of Shakespeare's "Macbeth,"
Yeah any version of Macbeth not directed by Shakespeare himself is a rip off.
More importantly, with all these discussions on the quality of Lucas' direction and writing, perhaps you should rewatch the original again. The writing, acting and direction throughout the film is unbelievably poor. What carries it is a great storyline - something that wasn't lacking Episodes 1 and 2. As for memorable lines how about "You'll be the death of me"?? - really: grow up, stop whining and get on with your life - it's only a film.
Will you be viewing Starwars 1-6 or 3-6 followed by 1-3. Or Will you just skip 1-3 altogether :)
(I'm assuming 3 will be bad)
Philip
Signatures are broken
It was ruined as soon as the Midochlorians came into the picture. If that's all that matters, why didn't Yoda just give Luke a blood transfusion before facing Vader? He could have pumped up those midochlorians before Luke's encounter.
Lucas took all the magic out of Star Wars. He actually managed to go back in time and ruin the original three episodes with his pseudo-scientific explanation. And the new stuff stinks. As much as I hate the Jar-Jar character, I sympathised with him when he stepped in that pile of sh*t. That's exactly how I felt while watching Episode III.
That is true. Problem is Lucas stopped ripping Kurusawa off, and his movies started sucking. So he should get back to what works.
I was 7 when Return of the Jedi was released and I had enough taste to dislike the Ewoks then about as much as I do now.
I distinctly remember how I had never really had that many Star Wars figurines up to that point, but around the release of RotJ my parents decided to get me a bunch and they were almost all... Ewoks... and gliders and a catapult. Of course, I didn't say anything disappreciative when I got them, but even at that age I kinda thought it the Ewok stuff was pretty lame.
So the point is, it doesn't matter what age I am:
the Ewoks and Jar-Jar suck ass!
Heaven forbid a good plot from getting in the way of selling more merchandise to kids!
Star Wars extends far beyond Lucas. It's a shared experience that has become a very important part of our collective culture.
Lucas no more owns Star Wars than our founding fathers own the constitution. They may have wrote it, but it BELONGS to us.
Lucas owns the COMMERCIAL RIGHTS to Star Wars, I'll give you that. As a result he's the one who gets to build the prequels. However, Star Wars is truly owned by the millions of people whose childhood was impacted by those films. Their culture and identity has been shaped by those, and to lament the destruction of that cultural legacy by the new films is both correct and understandable.
Turn s60 photos into awesome videos with mScrapbook for all S60 3rd edition phones!
Oh, Lucas knows that people don't like what he's done. The problem is that he thinks they are all wrong and doesn't want to hear it. In fact, CNN was refused access to Attack of the Clones based on a Connie Chung interview where she told Lucas that most people thought TPM was a disappointment. If you're going to kick the media off your property and deny them access to a major news story just because they suggested that the film didn't live up to expectations, I don't think you can honestly claim that you're open to criticism.
As far as his "reputation as a filmmaker", I think Lucas must realize now that he really isn't a filmmaker. He knows that Star Wars will be his legacy. So he really doesn't care about looking like some kind of great director because he knows he'll never direct again. That's probably one reason he's so possessive of the films -- he knows this is the last movie he'll ever direct.
GMD
watch this
Prentend Reloaded and Revolutions never existed. Just try to forget the fact that Episodes I,II, and III exist. If you say it to yourself enough times, you begin to beleive it.
Regarding the matrix:
" I still dont know how its all going to end. Maybe they should just stop at 1, cause they might fuck up the next one."
See? It works!!!
Since everyone seems to feel this is all about the money, the conection to "The Producers" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063462/) is pretty clear. So, let's check the requirements:
;-)
. an over-the-top storyline
. uniformed chorus for big dance numbers
. everyone already knows how it ends
And, Ewan McGregor can sing! "Springtime for Palpatine" it is then.
But who's going to bribe the critics to insure a bad review?
People have set unattainable expectations on what Star Wars should be. Nothing that could ever be made would ever quench their thirst.
Instead of going into a movie with preconceived notions of what you think it should be (this hardly ever works with anything) go into the movie with an open mind and just enjoy the damn show for once! Over-critiquing just takes the fun out.
Have Sam L Jackson say Muthah fuckah, mutha fuckah!
You just right click, then select 'save as'.
Were you even alive for the first Star Wars?? If so, you would remember it was all the rage *before* it was released. My high school buds must have seen it 10 times! It was HUGE.
Isn't it too late to "save" it? IMDB lists it as being in post-production already.
Does everything include nothing?
I love the classics, they are timeless. I think it would be nice to see them all redone so that the series could continue without changing actors again.
Jeoin
I have ben a huge fan of the SW movies since I was a kid and saw them i a theater. I followed the universe and looked forward to the new movies.
The general story form the original 3 movies is rediculously thin. The original Matrix put more plot in that single film than was in ep4, ep5, and ep6 combined. That didnt make them suck... it made them simple and fun.
In the prequels, he added a story line, political complexities, and actual character development - all of which was completely abscent in the originals. While they may not be "better" in the sense that the style changes made them mode fun to watch, but they are certainly not garbage. They are simply different types of movies. They only get condemned because of peoples memories of how much they loved SW back in the late 70s and early 80s.
SW has always been made for 12 year olds to love. The new movies accomplish exactly the same thing the originals did... only this time you arent 12.
The worst sin of all is that the Jedi's are weak-assed losers in these two prequels. It's lame and sad to continuely watching Jedi's get their asses handed to them by weaklings (esp., Obi Wan...) GEORGE, They are Jedi's! They kick peoples asses! The Clone Wars on Cartoon Network understood this...Genndy understood this. The various video game creators (esp., KOTOR &c.) understands this. So why? Why do they get their asses kicked all the time.
No...it's okay...I wasn't using my Civil Liberties anyway
Star Wars is barely related to the Hidden Fortress.
Hidden Fortress:
Two peasant farmers are refugees, trying to return home after a war. They find gold, and join with a mysterious powerful-looking man and a mysterious beautiful girl. Together they attempt to smuggle the gold across the border and evade capture.
Star Wars:
Farmboy Luke Skywalker finds more than he bargained for when he gains possession of two androids, who lead him on the adventure of his life to save a beautiful princess, befriend a devil-may-care space smuggler, and save the galaxy from the evil clutches of Darth Vader. Tutored by the mysterious Obi Wan Kenobi, Luke must "Learn the ways of the Force" and destroy the Death Star.
Key differences:
There is a powerful virile General (Mifune) in HF. In SW you have an aged magician (Kenobi) and an untrained boy (Luke).
In HF the princess is on the run to an allied province. In SW, the princess is captured and must be rescued.
In HF, the whole point is to get the princess safely to the allied province. In SW, the whole point is to blow up the Death Star.
SW has super powers (The Force). In HF, everyone is obvious merely human.
SW is a much more action oriented affair. HF is based more upon the interaction between the characters.
Similarities:
There is a princess in both.
There is a comic relief duo in both. SW, the droids. HF, the peasant farmers.
I know Lucas wants to compare himself to Kurosawa but he really copied 30s movie serials, not Hidden Fortress. About the only thing he took from HF is the comedy duo.
Also, Hidden Fortress really isn't Kurosawa's best work. Rashômon, Seven Samurai, Yojimbo, and even Ran are far surperior to Hidden Fortress. However, they are much better known and Lucas wouldn't have been able to get away with claiming ripping them off.
Well, I don't know about everyone else, but I see the Star Wars prequels as relatively successful and entertaining. While it has its serious faults, ones which I am quite displeased by, the overall series of movies is spectacular.
I acknowledge the common mistakes, haydenson is not a very good vader, several actors are not doing their best work, jar jar blew, bad dialog, a few stupid plot lines, some bs about midichlorians, on and on. But, with the exception of haydenson, I think these things are all largely forgivable.
Shut your ears to the "science" behind the jedi, let jar jar do what he does best, and that is be a foil for other actors, forgive the bad acting, and you have an entertaining flick.
To me, as a child, the greatest aspect of the star wars movies was the larger than life set of the universe. The huge battles, the lightsabers, the uber jedi, the excitement and anticipation of a large showdown between good and evil, etc. All of this is preserved. The space scenes are fantastic, as are the sets. Everything visual about this movie is just gorgeous to look at. The huge war in Attack of the Clones was breathtaking.
Enter, exhibit A, my little brother. Throughout both movies he was in awe. He was practically jumping out of his seat the whole time. For episode 3, I recommend you look around yourself in the theater at the little kids. Don't you remember doing what they were doing when you saw the movie?
Enter, Exhibit B, the money. The box office money is not coming from bitter fans, don't kid yourself. People are going to see these movies multiple times. You elitists can scoff that its people who don't know any better and who aren't good enough for movies, but thats a steaming pile of excrement. It is families with kids, it is teenagers, and the like in my opinion who are going to this. I enjoy a good drama movie with great acting and good plot, but I also enjoy an action / adventure space-opera. I saw adults getting ultra excited about these movies, too. When I went to watch Attack of the Clones for the *second* time the day it was released in my city, I was waiting in line with other people who had already seen it once. Those people aren't going back to remind themselves of how godawful the movie was. They are going back because they enjoyed it.
Enter, Exhibit C, yoda's fight scene. This was not the only scene that garnered a huge reaction among people in the theater when I saw the movies. But this scene was one of the most engendering. Cat calls, whistles, and general "yo go yoda, kick his ass", were what people said. People were engaged and they remained engaged throughout the scene. When christopher lee chickened out, people boo'd.
I'm glad my brother doesn't read slashdot otherwise he'd be asking me, why do those people not like star wars? And I'd have to explain to him, well some people require science fiction movies with silly and fictional devices to somehow make sense and be these all important dramatic movies. (a la matrix). The mystery of it, was its charm. We were free to imagine why the jedi could do what they did. I think people expect all these answers from the prequels and you aren't going to get them. What you get is set up work for episodes 4-6. And the answers come from *those* movies. You get leia's love of solo, you get a father's love for his son squashing his tyrranical ways, and you get the ultimate control freak (the emporer) to die a horrible death. Freedom and the little guys conquer the large, evil empire of control.
You still get emotional moments from the prequels, the death of anakin's mother, anakin having to leave his mother, the loss of his arm, the rift between anakin and obi wan, etc. I think they're designed to be stress inducing, which they are. The movie successfully makes you feel an impending doom for everyone involved.
The only trully sad thing about the prequels is that there is no equivalent to Harrison Ford. Maybe if they let samuel jackson get a bit more scre
Reality is a slackware box running on a 386 tucked away in god's sock drawer.
Think his acting sucks? Check out his comedy routine or one of his spoken word shows.
Ah, but the new Harry Potter is directed by Alfonso Cuarón who is actually a good director and definitely better than Chris Columbus who directed the other two. I'm sure I don't need mention how much better Cuarón is than Lucas.
Star Wars became a sub-religion a long time ago while the rumors to the prequels were heating up. As you say, those people who are caught up with the religion will watch the movies and buy the merchandise no matter the quality. And I don't think it's a nerd/geek thing, although many geeks are caught-up in the SW-religion, many are not and many non-geeks are.
People no longer go to see Star Wars to get entertained, they go to see it because everybody else does, and because if they don't they think they've comitted a sin towards themselves. It's just like church: you go there because you have to, hope it's good for a change, but will tolerate it nontheless and just bitch about losing out another Sunday morning.
Everytime anyone critisisems anything here at /. we have one jerk telling us we shouldn't complain about something we didn't do. Screw that and him. It is the duty of the public to critisize everything that some one trys to sell us. With out that, our economy would surely perish.
"But in most parts of the world, the government doesn't tell you what you can or can't do with your own property. "
I've heard that in America if you mod your X-Box, you can be arrested.
why not?
Include seriously violent scenes and horrific action. Remember John Williams music with the male chorus at the end of Jedi as Luke fights Vader? That kind of Darkness is what I would like to see.
That would be my formula, make some kids cry.
the Phantom Editors will.
sulli
RTFJ.
You can consider yourself brainwashed and an ideal north american consummer. When you feel tired of getting exploited, tell us, i'll leave the continent.
So, does anyone care to explain the loss of enjoying a bad movie?
YES!
1. There's simply too many of them!!!
2. Bad movies do not enrich my life, they waste my fuckin time.
i am about sick of people talking about remaking or fixing or saving star wars or whatever. It's not your film, so you have no right to alter the films. get over it. Lucas is going to make movies the way HE wants to make them, not the way a bunch of whiny geeks on the internet want them. Love em or hate em, they are his movies, and if you don't like it, you can show it with your wallet.
Yes, Episodes I and II were disappointing. Yes, Episode III is bound to be a major bummer.
That is actually a good thing, however. Think of Episodes I, II, and III as "the Lucas versions."
You see, the fan film industry is taking off. (See theforce.net.) The emotional devastation that I, II, and III are wreaking upon Star Wars fandom will generate amazing creative opportunities for the fan filmmakers.
Now instead of having to come up with a new storylines based on minor characters who are effectively NPCs, they can re-make Episodes I, II, and III with unknown actors playing the main characters, and entirely original scripts. They can jettison canon and create three great replacement movies of their own. All of their work will start to feed on one another.
When you think "Han Solo," you think of him as Harrison Ford played him. Mark Hammill is Luke, and Carrie Fisher is Leia. Yet, when you think "Anakin Skywalker" you don't think "Hayden." That's because Hayden is not burned into our minds as Anakin. We reject him as if he were not the real Anakin. The other characters from I, II, and III are like that, too. This opens up limitless opportunities.
If it turns out there is money in the fan films, Lucas will get his royalties and the fan filmmakers will make their reputations and get studio deals.
The net result for the fans will be better in the long run than if I, II, and III had been truly great in themselves. The "Lucas versions" travesty will generate huge amounts of new creative energy, especially in the Star War mythos.
There was a line in opening sequence of the last VHS release of the original trilogy: "Star Wars: For All Generations." That is so true. Star Wars has grown bigger than Lucas. Star Wars belongs to all of us now.
Bring on Ep III.
not /. ;)
maybe we should be a bit more concerned with questions such as, "Can humans be saved?" (not to mention "how?") and leave the hand-wringing over a 3 hour entertainment not due to be screened for a year to those with too much free time and too few free neurons who naturally gravitate to bottom-feeding.
robn8r --not intending inflamation or offense (but donning fire-retardant duds), says "sheesh, gedalife!"
"If...you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning" - Catherine Aird
>They may have wrote it, but it BELONGS to us.
Interesting use of the term "own".
Under your definition, exactly what is not "owned" by someone who experienced it?
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Help us, Gennady, you're our only hope.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
I mean lucus wrote a good story, the prequel could have been real good. But when you put R2D2, CP30 and jar jar in it, it will fail. WHat is the point of tailing a story about Darth Vader...when alot of dialog revolves around some droids and an idiot creature. It makes no sense to have R2D2 and CP30 in the prequels becuase it added nothing to the story. I dont want the same characters with the same problems over and over. I just think lucus did the movies for kids and not us adults..i believe that is obvious enough. I want to see jedi fights and shit at least... SW could have been his legacy, but now people will only remember how he screwed it up and those other 3 movies that where real good. BTW, all you star wars geeks, read dune...you can see where lucus got his story.
Deserving got nothing to do with it.....shuffle
One thing I can't help wondering is if many people form a final opinion about the movies that is based on the loud public sentiment. My reaction to Star Wars 1 and 2 is that I loved them. The sci-fi backgrounds and effects were impressive, the action scenes intense, and the storyline was palatable. And I found several scenes to be quite memorable -- to name a few: the Obi-Wan/Darth Maul fight, the Yoda fight, and the huge jedi battle.
So yeah, I'm committing the unimaginable sin -- I liked Star Wars 1 and 2. Am I a stupid person? My career achievements would speak otherwise. Is my taste inferior? Perhaps, although the only thing I give a damn about is whether or not *I* enjoyed it. Am I unable to recognize poor-acting and plot-holes? No, I was cognizant of it all. Anakan and Amidala were cheesy (although I still love to say "you're making fun of me" in that cheesy tone to my wife to which she replies in an reciprocally cheesy tone: "I'd be much to frightened..."). However, I also juxtapose the shortcomings against the composite package of the movie. And in the case of Star Wars 1 and 2, the positive elements outweighed the negative ones to provide me a viewing experience which surpassed that of most movies.
And here's my main gripe -- I think there are others like me, who honestly enjoyed the movies when they were sitting in the theatre seats. But then, the popular and intellectually respectable position came to be that you were "absolutely miserable" during the movies. I mean, only a complete idiot could actually enjoy those movies, right?
All I ask is for you to consider this: at the time of your viewing -- were you enjoying the movie? If you were miserable, fine -- then the movies didn't jive with your refined taste. But if your hatred for the movies didn't develop until you read the comments on three dozen slashdot articles, then consider whether or not you are speaking your own opinions. Be honest enough to admit you enjoy what you enjoy. If you like Enterprise, great. If Farscape and FireFly raised your standards high enough that you can no longer enjoy Star Trek, then that's fine too. If the Matrix 3 plot resolution left a foul taste in your mouth (as it did for me), then live it. Just live your own opinions. I'm sure many critics out there genuinely hated the movies -- but I also believe there are many more who initially did not.
I have been telling my friends for years that Ep 3 will rock. Why? Because I think it is clear from the storytelling that lucas knew where he wanted the story to start (beginning of episode I) and he knew where he wanted the story to end (end of Episode III). He probably had some vague idea about key events in the middle, but for the most part I think he didn't know how to get it to the end. That being said, I think that he has a truly spectacular ending to the prequel-trilogy in mind. If he caves in now to those who lob criticism at him as if he is Bush, then I think he might miss the chance to show the world where his vision truly was.
:)
And in the likely chance that this movie sucks as well, we can know with certainty that Episodes IV-VI were a fluke
Ever since Joseph Campbell made the mistake of interviewing Lucas for that "Myth" book, Lucas has grown a huge ego. Too bad he doesn't have the brains or tallent to match.
My vote: Drop ST3 altogether.
"N"
Actually, for trivia fanatics, Luke was origionally visualized as a woman in the preproduction stage, however they scrapped the idea. I guess a love triangle was more interesting involving 2 men, and an ass-kicking chick was deemed unneccessary.
~*~ ~*~ ~*~
yes, girls read /. too...
Sweet lord, that cracked me up.
Lucas has pretty much dug his own grave when it comes to the SW franchise - I think early on it was his ego demanding "bigger/better/faster/more" which produced some truly good movie moments.
But then the terms for 'success' shifted from making 'good' films to making 'profitable' films. I think he knew that marketing would have to take a more important role in his decisions for the newer films in order for them to be considered more'successful' than its predecessor. As Ep1 and 2 showed, the marketing Lucas overtook the filmmaker Lucas. It's like he's his own Darth Vader - succumbing to the Dark Side where dollars are king.
Unfortunately, when you're George Lucas, your ego tells you that anything you decide must be the right thing. How could he go wrong?...he's George Lucas! He did Star Wars! That being the case, I think Ep3 will be the train wreck many of us expect.
I skipped seeing Ep2 in the theater, and will do the same for 3. I felt with the original trilogy there was a reason to go see these films on the big screen, but now I see more reasons to wait until it's rentable a few months after being released to DVD.
- Jack
These movies have sucked the jedi pole. Lucas needed the money and knew he could draw on the success of the first set of movies.
I confess that I don't quite understand what you are trying to say but your comment about "American culture makes this movie what it will be" struck me as somewhat interesting.
The world is a different place than it was in the late 70s and 80s. America is no longer living in the fear of the Soviet Union. Today we are faced with an enemy who, unfortunately, we have had a hand in creating. I could see someone arguing that the original trilogy appealed to an audience that had been used to seeing things in black and white, good and evil. Perhaps the current trilogy should have tried to portray the battle between the forces as a little more ambiguous. That is, why not have the Jedi really fuck up and make a mistake that leads to the Clone Wars? Or the frustrations of the Separatists? The conflict between the Republic and the Separatists doesn't seem to really generate any strong feelings in the audience. It would have been much more interesting to see the Sith arise because of the mistakes of the Jedi. Perhaps that *is* how they were created; actually, I really don't know. Lucas decided to introduce a villianous element without explaning their motivation.
I don't think 'Enterprise' has done a particularly good job of modeling their plot arc based on the threat of terrorism or 'pre-emtive strikes' but you have to give them credit for at least trying. Lucas is making a set of movies that seem out of time. If he was a little more in tune with what's going on in the world and -- more importantly -- the hidden thoughts and fears of the audience, he might have actually made some films that resonate with the audience. As it is, however, he's chosen to make a big non-interactive videogame. Boring.
GMD
watch this
Maybe make StarWars 3 1/2: The One Right Before 4?
For those wondering what the whole Rollins thing is about, he was the frontman for the classic punk band Black Flag for a while. If you like hardcore music, find a copy of the song "Society's Tease" from the album In My Head. Powerful stuff.
Crushing my karma one post at a time.
There seems to be an underlying assumption by a lot of guys here that Episodes 1 and 2 were enjoyable only by children under 10.
Wrong.
I have two hardcore Star Wars fans aged 7 and 8, and they hated those movies. They hated the plodding plotlines, the goofy looking spaceships and the crappy merchandising that resulted.
See for yourself. Go to a toy store. Tons of Episode 1 and 2 toys in the clearance bin. X-Wings still selling strong.
The only redeeming qualities they seemed to find in the new movies was the Pod Race (which the movie bent painfully over backwards to somehow turn into a plot point) and, sadly, Jar-Jar Binks, who young children find amusing and will even take great pains (yours) to imitate. Although they still want to be Darth Vader on Halloween.
The latter day episodes just plain suck. Even kids will tell you that.
If we have less than a year to go before release, isn't it likely that most of the production has already been completed? It should be in the can by now, close to post-production.
Scene I
In the very first scene Jar Jar would be jumped by Ewoks and dragged away without anyone noticing. A minute or so later Obiwan will say "Has anyone seen Jar Jar?" When every one relizes that he has disappeared for good there is a collective sigh of relieve.
Scene II
Every one goes to whatever the hell planet Jaba the Hut is from. After landing they all get seperated. Princess Amadala ends up with Jaba's harem of attractive human women. Lesbian Gangbang!
Scene III
Jar Jar is dragged into the Ewok torture chamber. Also tied up are Elisha Wood as Frodo and Rudy. The three of them are tortured for about 20 minutes.
Scene IV
Samuel L Jackson, Obiwan, and Darth Anakin begin there search to rescue Princess Amadala (unaware that she doesn't need recueing). They caputure a guard and Samuel L interrigates him. Tarantinoesque ensues, including many uses of the term "motherfucker" and SLJ hitting the guard across the face with the butt of his lightsaber.
Scene V
The Ewok Illuminati consoll. We will discover that the Ewok secretly control the universe (and the force).
Scene VI
SLJ, Obiwan, and Anakin find the Harem. Obiwan, Anakin, Amadala and Amadala's new "friend" leave. SLJ stays behind.
Scene VII
Anakin and Amadala reunited. Conversation about how Jedis carry lightsabers to cover up for other inadaquacies. Anakin hits on her, she rejects him, she has fallen in love with one of Jaba's conquebines.
Scene VIII
Epic battle between the Jedi's and the Nazis.
Scene IX
Amadala asks Anakin if he will be be the father of her children. Anakin enthusiasically agrees. Amadala thanks him and hands him a cup and a prono mag explaining that she wanted the father to be the person she would be least likely to ever want to have a relationship with because she and the conquebine were going to raise the kids. (This ties in to why Luke Skywalker was such a pussy, no male role model).
Scene X
Relizing the futility of his Amadala obsession, Anakin goes over to the dark side.
Other subplots that should be worked in as time permits:
Obiwan struggling with his homosexualality. A long time ago in a galaxy far far away this was not accepted in the way it is now. As a result he is forced to live as a hermit on a dirty out of the way planet.
Anakin's "virgin birth" is called into doubt because his mom was obviously a prositute.
Yoda should be in the movie somewhere, perhaps as a robot controlled by the Ewok Illuminati.
The original Darth Vader appears in the burning the "worthless" huts seen in "The Seven Samurai". Darth Vader wears a Samurai helmet. Lucas rips-off Kurosawa all the time. And he admits it. It's not a big deal; artists steal from other artists all the time. Get over it. The Japanese made better stories for a lot less money.
I think that, by looking at the current US govt, it's easy to see that PLENTY of people are stupid enough to give evil power. All the power it wants.
Let the flames begin.
Why should I argue rationally with someone being irrational? I'll just mock them instead.
Bill Shakespeare blatantly ripped off Kursoawa's "Ran" with his cheap knockoff : "King Lear".
Unfortunately it looks like they took 'em offline, but the Clone Wars cartoons were terrific...the fanboys really took much better care of the franchise than Lucas. My only gripe was that while "jousters on speederbike" were corny but excusable as a new and interesting fighting technique, the fact that the good guys had their own legion of jousters on speederbike pushed it into the just plain silly.
I'm amazed Lucas let go of his iron grip enough to get those made. I hope they end up on DVD, not into the old memory hole...
SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
Empire Strikes Back was directed by Irvin Kershner and written Leigh Brackett (a master of pulp SF and Ray Bradbury's mentor) and Lawrence Kasdan. Some would argue that it is the best movie sequels ever made.
Except those people forgot that the title was later taken by Aliens.
Can somebody point me to a defintion of this?
Because it seems to be a, by some law, necessity to any "good" film or book, but at the same time lacking from some of the books and films that I really have loved. (Star Wars 4, LotR,... )
Is it a term you all learn in art class in US High Schools or something???
Lucas laces the food the actors eat with powerful drugs so that they cannot emote. That way, the computer animated characters look that much more life-like in comparison.
"Love heals scars love left." -- Henry Rollins
Check 'em out, they're hilarious.
Needle Nardle Noo
So while I hate the new episodes, I can appreciate the original 3 to this day, and am still thankful for them.
-TheTXLibra
"You've got no kids, no wife, no job, and you're not in The Tigger Movie!!!"
- my best friend's son, Gabe, at 5 years old.
-The Libra
"Please be patient--The future will begin momentarily."
what a loser I was in high school.
99% of the people raving about how wonderful Star Wars is (was?) reason this way:
1) The movie made me feel GOOD (holy, cool, clever, etc).
2) Because pleasurable feelings were induced, the movie (experience, religion, book, story, anime, novel, etc.) must be GOOD (holy, cool, clever, etc).
3) The possibility that I was manipulated, deceived, mind-raped, drugged (literally or metaphorically), or god only knows what else to shell out for a barely tolerable mediocre production, is unthinkable.
The response inevitably comes down to "I mean really, I'm way too clever, insightful, and generally too self-aware to be taken in by a director who really is in it for the money." [If you really doubt this, why ewoks? why jar-jar?] I have since stopped being amused, and only resigned, by the naivete of otherwise intelligent people who seem to think that there is anything else to the whole Star Wars (psuedo-)mythos besides making a buck. It's hollywood at its crassest and most materialistic.
For a better explanation and expression of this valuation of most of american sci-fi, see:
"Microworlds: Writings on Science Fiction and Fantasy" by Stanislaw Lem.
or for more comedy, look up the "Lem Affair" and the American Science Fiction Establishment of the 1970's.
You are going to go see the movie, so drop the 'tude and fess up. Yeah, it sucks, but marginally less than spending the evening in mom's basement.
-- Solaris Central - http://w
Tragedy of Greek proportions. Instead, all we had was inevitable failure. Dull
HAL
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
WB will definately remain interested. My only concerns regarding the Harry Potter movies are:
1) Will the actors (particularly the starring three) want to play the same roles for 7 movies in 7 years? That is a lot to ask from any cast, particularly a cast that is growing up in these roles. Its on par to a 7 year run on a television show for a child actor. (God I hope Hermione doesn't become the next Dana Plato)
2) Can J.K. Rowling pump out book 6 and book 7 in the next four years? To keep the actors at the appropriate ages as well as maintain the interest of the audience, J.K. has some catch up to do. Hopefully, the timeframe won't reduce the quality of the work.
--
Episodes 1-3 could have been terrific if George Lucas could recognize that his talents are limited.
In terms of coming up with an aesthetic and mood, he is genius. In terms of dialogue and storytelling, his skills have severely declined. (Or his commitment to technology has inhibited those skills.)
He should have stuck to set design and broad plot outline, while letting someone with talent handle dialogue and direction.
This is all assuming that the real problem isn't his commitment to marketing his film to children. Maybe the action figures, cereal, bicycles, and other assorted products drive film production? If so, it is a miracle that this man was able to create the wonderful Episodes IV and V.
Yes, there was a Jar-Jar BMX bike.
Empire Strikes had a different feel to it (I would be one to say that was the best of the series).
Something happened during this time, George Lucas got into a disagreement with the production studio and was either relieved of director duties, fired or choose not participate (could someone that remembers the details enlighten me). But this started a spiral down for GL, he lost some edge during this time.
Classic example was in RTOJ; he maliciously wrote items in the script to discredit ESB
- Leigh and Luke Kissing - GL hide the fact that they were siblings.
- Ewoks - what can I say other than get off of JarJar and move back to script
GL just needs to relax and think back to original days and it will be good. I have read that GL didn't hold any punches on Episode III to the point of almost getting an R rating. I hope it is the best of the series...
The embarassing thing about the whole Star Wars series is that nobody else has done much better space opera. It's been a quarter century, after all. The special effects problems have all been solved. There are franchises out there, in the space opera genre alone, with more potential. David Weber's Honor Harrington series, or the Man-Kzin Wars, to cite two good examples. Yet the industry is bringing back Battlestar Galactica, which, in its day, was generally considered lousy. And turning about four big-budget vampire movies per year.
Meanwhile, effort should be devoted to insuring that Star Wars III merchandise is biodegradeable, so there's no major disposal problem like last time.
It will be a horrible success, just like the first two.
hmmm... no.
If you put the original starwars movies under the same microscope, it sucks just as much as eps 1 and 2 did. if you look at the movies with a child's eye, then eps 1 and 2 look daaaamn good.
I disagree. I can still watch the original eps 4-6 today and enjoy them. And not for nostalgic reasons either. And while I grant that ep 1 had some cheesy moments and ep 6 was far more happy and fluffy than it should have been, overall the original trilogy was really pretty good.
But I can't say the same for any of the prequels, on any level. The writing, effects, acting, and direction were ALL bad. The vehicle, creature, and background designs were excellent however. And that is Lucas' real talent IMO. If he had been art director and allowed other folks to write and direct the films they likely would have been excellent.
Look at the word "own" as it pertains to investors in the stock market. Some yokel buys one share of Finkel Widget. He now owns Finkel Widget -- one share of it. What does this give him the rights to do? Cast one vote in shareholder meetings, and complain in them, and that's about it. He has a different type of ownership than the bruiser that has forty percent of the stock.
It's like the word "love." People love each other. People also love cars, foods, computers and dancing. Different, but related, concepts under the umbrella of one word.
So when you experience something, you do take a certain kind of ownership in it. You did not put in money, like our yokel investor, but invested your time instead. Your time, and perhaps your emotions. On something like a movie, or a building you walk by every day on the way to work, this gives you one very small share in the object. You bought your rights to complain, but nobody has to listen.
(many thanks to Gabe at Penny Arcade for having that wonderful thought on the word "love")
*honk*
This is my sig. It's prescription, I swear. I need it for reading things... on the other side of things
I mean, really.
I AM the star wars generation. I went to go see
episode 4 for my 5th birthday and have vivid memories of that to this day.
5 and 6 were good but not anything like the origional 4th episode. I'm just dissappointed that
the first three episodes are turning out to be
nothing but special effects.
Yes and no. It is all Lucas' fault that Episode One is a complete and utter ball of festering badger vomit. It is the movie-going publics' fault that Episode Two is just as foul.
Why? Because so many people went to see Episode One over and over that Lucas believed that he had sucseeded in making a good movie.
But even so, it is unfair to put 100% of the blame on the movie going public for Episode Two. Remember that Lucas was aware of the blacklash about Episode One. Instead of learning from it, however, he decided to blame the Internet or claim that it was just a children's movie, depending on the day of the week.
The fact that Americans will see almost any pile of garbage movie and excuse the complete lack of quality with a dismissive "it's just a movie, chill out!" is the reason so many shitty movies get made. But Lucas is a special case because he finances his movies all by himself and even a complete boycott of his movies couldn't stop him from making them and making them so badly.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
Luke be a Jedi tonight!
Just be a Jedi tonight!
Do it for Yoda while we serve our guests a soda!
And do it for Chewie and the Ewoks, and all the other puppets
Luke, be a Jedi tonight!
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
Let Godfrey Reggio direct episode 3 with plenty of trippy cinematography. And Philip Glass at the music too, and character interviews à la Fog of War and a Trojan horse into the death star and something about Bush being bad for America. Slow travellings of rebel spaceships everywhere.
Now that would be something !
Have you seen any of the clips from it? It looks insanely great. I mean greater than great. Snape in a dress, Hermione knocking out some punkass, probably Draco Malfoy? Kick. Ass. And we only have to wait until June 4!
I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
If James Cameron directs - the android army would now become an unstoppable machine dealing death and destruction throughout the galaxy. Padme will the woman destined to save the future of Jedi-kind, and a jedi who can see the future comes to help her while an evil Sith is assigned solely in killing her. The Sith will have the best lines likes "stick around" or "bye, hand". Various gigantic nuclear explosions will take place and at least one cool chase scene that shows the unstoppable power of some type of large mechanical object. Many scenes will be lit with blue lighting and the whole movie will be rated R.
Francis Ford Coppola - most of the leaders of various planets will be paying homage to the Sith lord in a dark room while italian music plays in the background. There will be a violent ambush that kills most of the jedis with the kills paying one last bit of disrespect by kicking the dead jedi bodies as they leave. Padme told Annie that she had an abortion (she didn't).
Steven Spielberg - more Han Solo! He'll make it up as he goes along.
David Fincher - Anakin slowly degrades as he commits each one of the 7 deadly sins. There's no such thing as the sith lords. Everything happens in a monochromatic/dark/rainy setting, even at the climatic battle over the lava rain would be pouring down, meeting the lava violently with a lot of hissing. Anakin will finally turn evil when Padme's head arrives via GalaxyXpress in a box.
Merchant Ivory - There would be a lot of chit-chat over tea, in conferences, and everyone will be speaking with an english accent. Action set pieces will be small and subtle and most of the scenes will involve the emotional (or lack thereof) aftermath, showing the consequences of killing all the jedis/destroying planets/saying goodbye to Padme. Alas, it will be a bittersweet ending.
You are totally right, it's a horrible children's movie. The best part is when Indie is fighting the bad guy on that conveyor machine. And the leading lady is playing shadow boxing, mimicing Indie's moves. She's just punching the air. "GO INDIE! KICK HIS ASS!!!"
Which is the exact same thing a 6 year old kid would do.
How do people read the script, and not say.. "Ugh... George, what is this garbage?" Are they that blind? Are they in fear of loosing there job?
I think I have it figured out. I think I know how these movies are made. I'm totally making this up, but this must be true, because it's the simplest answer possible: Lucas' is the only person that has a full copy of script. Whenever they film a scene, then and only then are the actors given the lines for the scene, no doubt by George Himself. He can't trust anybody else with a copy of the script. That explains the horrible acting. You would act horrible too if you were just given the lines 5 minutes before taping. All of the special effects crew are never given any part of script. They are just given something that barely passes as a description of what happens in the scene, so then they can do there job. But when they have questions, George just yells "FASTER, and MORE INTENSE!!!" Thus, by using this method, the only way people know that the movie is a horrible piece of trash, is when it's completed, and then it's to late.
Damn, I'm good.
-asoap
Treat me like a marketing stat, and I'll treat your movie like a series of ones and zeros
... Ep I, II are missing one important thing that made the success of ep IV V VI: Hans Solo. The "go save the princess" story line would have been almost boring but for the special effetcs and Hans Solo. There is no equivalent character in the ep I and II.
Plus there are some really questionnable moves made by the good guys. Example: In clone wars when the jeudis actually jump into the arena to help the heros. I couldn't help thinking "Can a light saber stop a nuke? Ho! Wait. The death star hasn't been built yet.".
I don't see how they can change track for ep III since it's kind of late to introduce a new primary charater.
I saw it in 1977 and it has all the elements of an Opera in Space. Hence a Space Opera.
;)
Can it be saved? After the same old stuff over and over again, and the story for the first three being told in the 4th, 5th, and 6st episodes, the audience isn't exactly going to be suprised at the results of the first three episodes.
Blah, watch "S1m0ne" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0258153/ it should be in the dollar bin of the video rental stores by now. Replace all the actors and actresses with computerized ones and make your own Space Opera. Licence Star Wars, and somehow tie it into Star Wars. See what happens.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
It was released in 1983, 21 years ago. Not 30.
I personally prefer the ones where they betray love by killing their significant other while in a passionate embrace, then coldly informing said SO about how there was never any love, that they were only using them as the SO dies with those words ringing in their ears. A slightly more cruel variant is not killing them in that case.
Only thing is I can't remember which movie I saw this in, but I can see it in my head and it was downright chilling.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
Yes, it is true that the original Star Wars was not a great work of art, and that it had some appeal for kids. But that does not excuse other episodes for being absolute crap and of no interest to anyone who is *not* a kid. The writing has clearly deteriorated.
Yes, it is true that George Lucas has the right to write the scripts however he wants to. But eveyone else still has the right to criticise his work and label it crap if they feel that it is. To say otherwise is to say that nobody has the right to criticise anything that he didn't personally create, which is a viewpoint held by very few.
Finally, while it is fun to discuss various aspects of the films, it is not a big emotional issue to me. I found episode I so bad that I never saw Episode II, and I have no intention of seeing III. Nor have I seen Andromeda since about the end of season 2. Experience with the various Star Trek series has shown me that when something I like is turned into crap it is best to just dump it and move on. I can still enjoy the earlier, better works. And something new and good will eventually come along, e.g. the Rings films by Peter Jackson. As long as there are intelligent, creative people in the world, there is hope, no matter how large the hordes of dumb suits may seem.
The character of Luke was originally supposed to be a woman. I had a portfolio of production paintings from Star Wars ("A New Hope" for you youngin's) and there are several pictures where Luke's character was painted as a woman.
And it certainly would have changed the whole love-triangle dynamic. Instead of Lucas copping out by making Luke and Leia (sp?) brother and sister, it could have been lucky Han Solo and the Skywalker Twins!
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
Yes, and if no one gets upset about it then the parasites who bring nothing to society gets rewarded. Let me clear it up for you. It has become more rewarding in this society to be totally incompetent and use scam (legal or illegal) technics to make some dough. Do you see a pattern?
If people get upset about a stupid movie publicised as the best of the year, it's more likely than the people responsible for making such an horrific scam will be fired. And that is good for all of us, because the next time you go into a theater, hey perhaps the movie will have some elements of creativity you never anticipated and perhaps it will have a both the effects of entertaining you and enriching your life. Note that getting entertained without spending 10$ for it is easy and could be done without the movie industry all together.
Sean Connery.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
Star Wars III, and every movie currently playing in theaters, coule be improved by the addtion of Orcs. Ask yourself, what would be a funnier movie, "Johnson Family Vacation" or "Orc Family Vacation?"
Wouldn't "Troy" be more exciting if the Trojan Horse opened up and Uruk-Hai came pouring out? Wouldn't "Passion of the Christ" be more interesting if the Orcs were marching Christ to be crucified, got a little peckish, ripped Jesus limb from limb and ate him before they got there?
--If 50,000 people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
I know that this article was written tongue-in-cheeck, but it is much too late to complain about Episode III now. With only one year before release the movie is in post-production now. It's much too late to fire Lucas and the director or the writer. Also much too late to dump any of the actors. All that is left is editing and special effects.
If the writing and acting performances are not better in this edition of Star Wars, no amount of special effects or editing will save it.
One of my up mod points, that is. Brilliant post. Everything I was going to say, plus a bit more, all eloquently put.
:)
Thank you for writing that.
*honk*
This is my sig. It's prescription, I swear. I need it for reading things... on the other side of things
I've tried to read a couple of the books, and they come off as books written for 12 year olds by 15 year olds.
Anything written by Alan Dean Foster is destined for mediocrity.
The whole series of books, my god, it seems so pathetic. When I see someone carrying one of those books around, it marks them as an ultimate nerd living in their parent's crawl-space.
Its like very living geek/nerd cliche rolled into one and put on an ugly tray of stupidity and shallowness.
I can't think of enough bad things to say about these books. They are really really really really horrible.
This "Star Wars is Doomed" article is more of the same trolling dreck that Christopher Bahn has been serving up since he was writing for the Minnesota Daily and Citypages.
/. posting.....
He writes the same crap in a previous article about the "Friends" last episode. Hmmm, Funny that has not gotten a
Have you Meta Moderated t
Episode 1 is star wars
Episode 2 is the empire strikes back
Episode 3 is return of the jedi
The rest suck and who cares.
Any re-numbering is revisionist crap and ignored by anybody with a brain.
I'm not a space geek so it outta mean something when I say I'd rather watch another Star Trek movie than Episode 3. And as annoying as they are, trekkies are much better company than the rabid Lucas and Star Wars freaks.
Here's a tip for both: when presented with a paradox, it is okay to say, "Yeah, Lucas/Roddenberry was on crack when he thought of that."
As to your defense that "they made a lot of money", well, so did "The passions of the christ", and that was a pretty awful movie too.
What is your point here?
"Tormenting the red ant nest at school" :(
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Well, while it might be argued a lot of ways, my argument is that it does not need saving. There are pros and cons of every movie. The Star Wars movies are not special except for the fact that we all grew up with them. The first three were ground breaking in their time, these last two were ground breaking in their time and I'm sure the last one will be too, but not in the arena of Dialogue, more in the arena of ideas and filmography. I wasn't impressed with I or II the way I was with IV,V, and VI. However, the movies were filling in the blanks that only our imaginations had done for before, and the imagination of a generation is more difficult to out-do than anything I can imagine. The same thing applies to all these wonderful books and comic books being made into movies; they're trying to outdo the imaginations of whole generations. When they fall short it isn't because of poor directing or of poor script writing, its because our expectations are so high that its damned difficult to attain that level of spectacularity. Most movies have this issue. When taken for what they are, without the hype and expectation built up, they generally do well, but when they have hype and expectation built up, they generally fall short, flat on their face.
While I can't say Star Wars I is my all time favourite movie, I can say that just like Star Wars I, I am eager to see Star Wars III.
-LoneWolf-
It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
See, Movies have a foot in two worlds, business and art.
If you look at movies as a business, fine, you are right. It's his right to make the movie in his head, and we have the right to not pay for it and not see it. No biggie.
However, we are sci fi geeks, space opera fans, and obsessive star wars watchers. We live in the world of art. Fuck all those capitalistic pig ideas... I want to discuss art, explore this as art. I want an epic that stands the test of time. I want be impressed with artistic expressions of what makes a great movie. I WANT ART.
I don't want a fucking $8 piece of paper that gives me the right to watch images on a screen. I want a masterful story told in widescreen that entertains me and makes me think.
Your capitalistic ideas are stepping on my bleeding heart liberal overly idealistic idea of the perfect movie and damnit I will complain until I get it!
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
Luke was originally a girl when Lucas was making a space version of True Grit. As he moved through many variations on his script Luke changed from a girl to a small boy and then an adolescent.
We have always been at war with Eurasia!
The reason the new Star Wars movies are almost universally hated by the late 20s-40s Slashdot crowd is because they are simply not made for us.
If you were poll people here I would almost certainly expect "Empires Strikes Back" to come out as the most favorite off all the Star Wars movies. And probably by a large margin.
However Empire Strikes Back was the lowest grossing move of the five.
Top grossing US movies of all-time
Lucas is making the Star Wars for widest audience and that is not the dark "Empire Strikes Back" crowd.
Chew: You Nexus, huh? I design your eyes.
Roy: Chew, if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes.
Having just listened through Sgt Pepper again an hour ago, I'll put "Lucy In the Sky With Diamonds" and "A Day In the Life" against anything coming out today. Some of the stuff today isn't half bad, but are people still going to be listening to it in 30 years? They'll still be playing the Beatles though.
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
It's "inspired by" to the same extent that West Side Story is "inspired by" Romeo and Juliette or Throne of Blood was "inspired by" Macbeth. That is to say -- a lot. Put it this way - if you showed HF to a random number of people that have seen the original Star Wars I bet a least half would notice that they are very similar without prompting.
BTW, the articles idea to rip off Throne of Blood for Ep III could be brilliant. I can totally see Padme going raving mad, obsessively washing invisible blood from her hands and comitting some particularly gruesome suicide. Somehow tie in her suicide being the direct fault of Yoda and you have the final straw that creates Vader.
-- your Web browser is Ronald Reagan
Didn't ruin the originals? Greedo now fires first (with a strangely cheesy effect), and Han Solo steps on Jabba's tail! Ok, maybe the originals weren't ruined, but I was kinda bummed...
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
Hmm... Maybe Lucas really is a genius and ep. 1 - 3 are some sort of attempt to get us to identify with Anakin's descent. I mean, don't you want to go around doing bad things after you watch these movies? But then if you watch 4 - 6, you'll feel all warm and fuzzy inside again.
Naaah.Maybe if Lucas were strongarmed into declaring the movies Open Source? I mean, they're mostly software anyway...
"You will soon be more aware of your growing awareness." - My first recursive fortune cookie!
There is no Jar Jar (*cough*) in episodes IV, V and VI.
That means that JarJar will be killed in episode 3. I'll pay to see that!
Not Buzzword 2.0 compliant. Please speak english.
Crawlspaces make excellent living spaces.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
He is a goof.
So WHY is this goof allowed to have any say in ANYTHING?
Simply put: It's "movie logic". He's the comic relief. The comic relief exists SOLELY for reasons like that.
And that is why those movies sucked. Too many movie devices and not enough creativity.
Actually, with the intelligence of the average person, they would think Hidden Fortress was ripping off Star Wars.
To whomever moderated my original post as flamebait, I think you may have misunderstood my comparison of Bush to Jar Jar binks. I was not insinuating that they are both bumbling idiots, I merely meant that they both have floppy ears and funny accents.
so, like, whatever, man. Episode III: It's a Wrap
Hasn't Episode III been in post-production for the past 6 months (and will be for the next 12)? Kind of late to save it now...
Who doesn't like free music?
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
...just that "Lucas could probably be tricked by telling him that Joseph Campbell" was going to do a documentary on him.
:-)
This is more a commentary on the intellect of Lucas than the alive-ness of Campbell.
dinner: it's what's for beer
Darth Vader was cold, ruthless, and calculating; a fantasticly cruel bad guy. Anakin's just a whiner and complainer. Not every whiny repressed teenager would turn into Darth Vader, even if he had Jedi powers. So I wonder what will be in Episode III to trigger the transformation...
$8.95/mo web hosting
Star Wars has traditionally been a poorly-acted, ultra-cheesy ordeal, why would anyone want to change that?
If there was a well-acted, actor-emoted, plot that captivated version, it would be an orphan.
I say save Star Wars 3 by leaving it to suck to high heaven!
some traditions ARE worth saving!
1) The difference between the first three movies (Ep 1-3) and the second three movies (Ep.4-6) is that we know what's going to happen in the first three movies before they're even shot. The second three movies were always a mystery as to what the plots were.
2) When coming out of self-imposed directing retirement after Star Wars, Lucas should have directed a non-Star Wars Movie or two before trying to tackle bringing the first three episodes to life. He himself has stated that the digital technologies were new to him when he began episode 1.
Dolemite
_________________
Save the World! Use a Quote!
- Anakin is not Vader
- Vader is Anakin's clone, engineered by the emperor as a backup plan if he cannot convert Anakin.
- Anakin becomes aware of this. Works to protect his wife/kids
- Vader kills him.
- Due to vader's accelerated growth, his body suffers and requires cybornetics to keep him alive
Yeah, it might be crazy and off the wall when Tsui Hark gets done with it, but it will be fun to watch. He certainly couldn't do any worse.
I'd also like to see Tom Baker exit a suddenly appearing police box and offer Christopher Lee a Jelly Baby in the final scene. Then K-9 can take out everyone that's supposed to be dead in A New Hope. This could lead to a new Empire themed movie where the Daleks try to overthrow the Empire but are put down by the Emporer and Darth Vader.
"A man talking sense to himself is no madder than a man talking nonsense not to himself."
You might as well ask if Annakin can be prevented from turning to the Dark Side(tm).
Anonymous Kev
Proudly posting as AC since 1997
(Finally got a dang account in 2004)
nonononononononononononononononononono
shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up
GEORGE LUCAS IS THE GREATEST
shut up shut up shuuuuuuuuuut uuuuuuuuup
nananananananananananana
I AM NOT LISTENING
nanananananananananananan
clearly they don't want it to be better...
mv ~glucas/sw3 /dev/null
Damien
Put it this way - if you showed HF to a random number of people that have seen the original Star Wars I bet a least half would notice that they are very similar without prompting.
I doubt it. I mean, there are movies more simular to The Hidden Fortress by accident, than Star Wars is on purpose.
Palpatine is Annie's Dad. Palpatine is Annie's Dad. Palaptine is Annie's Dad.
From the Google Cache of a Baptist church site: The True Jar Jar Binks
Life Sized Satanic Doll Serves As Masturbation Toy For America's Youth
Action Alert!
When Mrs. Tawny Huxton opened her son Timmy's bedroom door, she was shocked to see his innocent white hiney nestled into the new 7ft Jar Jar Binks doll she had bought him for his birthday. Lately, many Americans have suffered similar incidents. Young children are being seduced by the character of George Lucas' latest Star Wars Movie. Jar Jar's soothing voice, and timid childlike manners, seem to lure young teens into a world of lustful abandon. Unsuspecting parents purchase the popular life-size doll, only to find out later that it is being used by the child as a masturbation toy.....
Growing up I lived and breathed Star Wars. I'd hang upside-down from the jungle gym and try really really hard to get a stick to fly from the ground to my hand like Luke getting his lightsaber when he's hanging upside down in the cave at the beginning of Empire. Obi-Wan Kenobi was the zen master to whom we all aspired. I hated the Ewoks, though, just as I later hated Jar-Jar.
But I still found things to enjoy in Episode I. Sure, you had midichlorians and other stupid stuff, bad child acting and just bad acting in general from some of the principals. But you also had Darth Freakin' Maul, double-lightsaber and all, dueling about and kicking double Jedi ass (until his ridiculous, not-believable demise). You had Liam Neeson giving a very solid performance as Obi-Wan's mentor.
And I still found things to enjoy in Episode II. Sure, you had more Jar-Jar "meesa want" and more boring imperial senate nonsense, and more wooden acting from some of the principals. But you also had Jango Fett, and in the end Yoda goes ape-shit on Christopher Lee. Yeah it was ridiculous and half of me wanted to laugh at the scene... but the other half was too busy going "HOLY SH!T LOOK AT YODA GO."
I don't care if I'm called "Soft" or whatever for actually admitting what most people seem to be too up-tight, too wannabe Goth, too whatever to admit: I LIKE THE STAR WARS MOVIES.
Get over yourselves. Write your own damn universe of characters and make your own damn movies about them. Leave Lucas alone. Yeah some of it is crap, most of the acting is horrible... but there are some fun things in there and I personally can't wait to see how it all "begins/ends" with Episode III.
So there. I've said it. Call me a poser, fanboy, whatever. At least I'm not a little whiny arrogant "my sh!t smells better than yours" film critic or one of these ever-popular "I hate everything" kids of today.
MORTAR COMBAT!
George Lucas scored a huge hit with the original 3 movies for several reasons:
1) He borrowed concepts that worked for others
2) The story was clear and classic: good vs. evil
3) The effects were new (not tired)
4) The film score was bold and complimentary to the action
All of these are (or at least at the time were) tried and true elements to storytelling that engaged viewers. The controlling narrative was tethered to redemption, justice, and heroic action. It was the rite of storytelling that goes all the way back to the Homeric tradition.
The new Lucas productions "suck" because he's abandoned those storytelling elements for what I consider "post modern." The characters are no longer good or evil they're somewhere in between. Lucas tries to explain too much and seems to fear that even "The Force" is beyond the ability for viewers to suspend disbelief and just believe in it for the 94 minutes they're in the theatre. (Midichlorians? That's harder to believe, George!) Darth Vader was more fun because he was just evil. We liked him turning back to the good side only because the hero wanted it. We, like Luke, didn't care how he fell, we just wanted to see how it worked out. George's initial decision to start in the middle was the right decision then and the right decision now.
How do you save episode 3?
1) Make Anakin evil and don't try to explain why--make us hate him because he's evil not because he's an abused child acting out. The audience should be afraid of the dark side not feel sorry for it. (We're supposed to enjoy seeing him get an asswhoopin' not think "awe, if he'd only had a better home life with a father figure...")
2) Ditch the Disneyesque fluffy crap. No Jar-Jar or other cutesy crap. You can be funny without making the characters saccharin-laced Care Bears from outer space. George, your kids don't have to laugh and giggle through "Daddy's" movie. They'll get their asses kicked at school.
3) If you're gonna steal material, steal GOOD material. Don't steal from half-baked postmodern mythological mumbo jumbo you pulled from Joseph Campbell's trash can. Use classic archetypes & don't try to re-invent them--your stories aren't strong enough to support explaining the characters' complexity.
The audience doesn't care--we just want to see the characters play out the story not the other way around. We know who they are and what they do already, so the Hemingway treatment to every little thought just plain bores us. We want more light saber fights and less pouting moddy James Dean wannabe rebel without a clue b.s.! The most awesome moment was seeing Yoda get it on with Dooky or Dooku or whatever. We know who's good and who's evil--don't overtell the story. The clash was playing out what we ALREADY know.
The bottomline is that we don't like Anakin--he was a snot-nosed smart-assed child and we're glad to see it when he's partially dismemberedand burned so badly that he's forced to live the rest of his life in a big black helmet that hides that smarmy punk-assed smirk we've all reviled for the first 2 episodes.
Oh, crap. I started to rant didn't I? Well, so much for intellectualism.
I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
Thanks for the info, I was unaware of all of this. I just remember seeing a concept art calendar from the origional trilogy. Can you send a link for an article about it? I'm interested in learning more.
~*~ ~*~ ~*~
yes, girls read /. too...
Look at episode 1.
They can't be killed by poison gas.
They can't even be hit by robots shooting at them.
They won't be stopped by huge steel doors.
They can even control minds.
With that much going for each individual Jedi, how is it possible to destroy almost every last one of them?
That could be a great story. That could be a trilogy by itself.
Instead, that will be a tiny part of a single movie that will be focused on stupid tricks like lava surfing.
Of course you can't "save" Episode III--it's already been filmed. It's in post-production now.
Well - if they would resurrect the space program (like building a moon base), this kind of movies will be "saveable" much easier.
Can Star Wars Episode III Be Saved?
That's like asking if Superman needs to be saved from falling off a tall building.
I am NOT a number! I am a - oh wait, I'm number 761710. Look! 761710!
Then why does anyone even bother seeing them?! If you feel III will suck, here's an idea: DON'T PAY TO SEE IT!!!
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Jar-Jar knocks up Padme when Anakin is elsewhere, thus why Jar-Jar is not in eps 4-6, and why the "Luke, I am your father" is remembered for centuries as the funniest comic line in a movie!
"Yippeeeee!!!!"
*ugh*
Interestingly enough, those are the same reasons Lord of the Rings did so well. The first movie in a long, long time to come out and give everyone good fun and hope. You could anabashedly cheer for the good guys (and in my screenings, they did--they even cheered when Sam got married and had kids! People love these characters to death). It's completely out of left field for the...er...00s.
We can dig it.
Noone had really used special effects to that degree before 1977(to my knowledge)
Interestingly enough, the effects guys working on Superman were really hyped about their film because of their use of miniatures to create the still realistic-looking Krypton, the work to make Christopher Reeves look like he was really flying most of the time, and so on. It was state-of-the-art pushing of the envelope.
Halfway through production, Star Wars came out and made it all commonplace. Plus, Star Wars used more of it than Superman did. Nonetheless Superman is still impressive (and if you watch it today, it's amazing how much it feels like it came out today, complete with 3D zooming credits--Spider-man's plotline is almost a point for point ripoff).
Episode 1 and 2 have not repeated the originals success by smashing the box office sales and taking top place again. They were successfull to be sure but no record breakers. When you have a move that is squarly aimed at everyone from the age of 40 or downward (the original audience plus all the new kids) boasting a universe people have been waiting to see again on the big screen for decades and you can't break the box office record something is seriously amiss.
So they didn't make a movie that as many people as possibly went to. A new hope will forever be a piece of cinametic history. Episode 1 and 2 and possibly 3 will be just another movie.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Funny, I first saw the Star Wars films as the Special Editions in late high school.
I enjoyed the first two but hated the second. I didn't feel the first two were pandering to kids at all.
The prequels, on the other hand, definitely are--but schizophrenically. "The taxation of trade routes is in dispute..." Give me a break. Council meetings? Weirdness that flew over kids' heads (and ended up in the much more serious yet crappy Matrix sequels). Lucas can't even write a good kids' movie.
No way out... No way out!!!
From 0 to drunk in $20
That's Harrison Ford acting.
Han Solo was acknowledging Luke's beliefs. It was uncharacteristic for Han to say that, but he said it to acknowledge that he respected Luke and wanted him to make it back.
Ford loved working on films 1 and 2--he invented "parsecs" for that famous line. It was film 3 you can tell he wanted no part of...
Compared to The Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones was a flop. It did less numbers than The Phantom Menace. People weren't fooled twice, but curious lookey-loos like me did go to see it, mostly for the effects.
For a comparison, imagine if The Two Towers had done worse than Fellowship of the Ring. Luckily, each sequel grossed more on its opening weekend than the previous! But had Two Towers done worse, it would have been called a "flop" as well.
Matrix Revolutions did worse than Reloaded. Flop.
Classic stuff! Now see how many people use lines from the new episodes. Zero? Now see how many use lines from the LOTR trilogy. "You shall not pass!" "Precioussss they took my preciousss" "etc etc" Not quit as many because lotr is a bit more wordy and I haven't yet seen it enough to know every line by heart but still people are quoting it.
That is really where George Lucas failed. The orignal 3 were aimed at kids but we kept them with us as kids. We took them into our hearts and treasured them. Todays kids watched the movies, enjoyed them, played with the toys and then forgot. In 30 years time none of the kids who saw The Phantom menace will be writing how that Lucas Junior is ruining the Star Wars legacy with the third trilogy. Sad really.
I got Episode 2 on dvd. Still can't bring myself to watch it yet. Episode 1 nearly killed me. 2 Might make me kill someone else instead. As for the re-edits. ARRGH!
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Source please.
for god's sake! if I want a real, meaningful tale I watch LOTR, or read it. GL is an entertainer. but i still like the guy. you can really have a good time with your kids watching the films (I was a kid myself in '77). no foul language, etc. then, when your kids are older (10 or so) introduce them to LOTR. both the films and the books. REAL storytelling. 'nuff said.
the future is but past forgotten
Thanks for the blow off Slashdot people. I submitted this as soon as it was posted on MSNBC yesterday afternoon. Where's the love, people?
Why would I troll movies I love watching or bands I like listening to and have a great deal of respect for?
Didn't you read the last line of the post?
Before the prequels came out, i had always considered the 1966 Japanese Samurai-Noir film "Sword of Doom" (Dai-bosatsu tôge) to be Darth Vader's back-story -
3 03 386717/104-4563620-6403155?v=glance
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060277/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6
prob too late for this to become episode 3, but this is the movie Lucas SHOULD have ripped-off - i'm surprised it has yet to be mentioned here...
Now i'll just pretend its Darth Maul's story instead...
Lucas wanted the prequels to be some sort of groundbreaking technological breakthrough like the first ones were. But we all liked the characters and story of the first one, set in the environment of cool special effects.
Like with Jar-Jar. You know he was going for this "breakthrough" film with the first full CG character interacting with live-action flims. But nobody cared because it was stupid.
In Lord of the Rings, they weren't trying to be "revolutionary" with everything, they were just doing as much possible to create the story and the world it lived in. Gollum wasn't CG because Peter Jackson wanted to create a revolutionary character, he was CG because he didn't think a human actor could present the character visually the way it deserved to be.
People don't remember Fellowship of the Ring because of the Balrog, they remember it because of the great characters and acting, plus with the added bonus of a Balrog scene, etc. Helm's Deep and the Pellenor Fields are just icing on a rich cake.
Star Wars has been nothing but green-screen stages with the other 80% of the film being finished in post-production. It's ridiculous. If Lucas had been directing Lord of the Rings, Bilbo's house would have been entirely CG using green screens. So would Rivendell, Mordor, and more.
Peter Jackson had them actually build Bilbo's house in two versions, big and small, just to get the sizes right for compositing. When the fellowship is walking over Caradras in the snow, they really dropped the actors from a helicopter onto the virgin snow of a real mountain in New Zealand and filmed it. Lucas would have said "walk them over a fake snow ground on a soundstage set, we'll CG in the background and sky...we can do it because we're filming digitally, lololol!!~~~" Hell, WETA even built the whole Dead Marshes set right in their freaking parking lot, actually importing real grass and mud, and so that's where those scenes were really filmed--a parking lot. You'd never know because it looks real.
Lucas can go to hell with Jar-Jar...
How very ironic. Darth Lucas, let go. It is not to late for you to be saved.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Nobody said Lucas didn't have the "right" to make these movies because they're "his." When somebody argues how stupid something is, that doesn't mean they're arguing for the right to make it to be taken away.
I hate when you criticize something, them someone chimes in, "They have the right to make it because it's theirs." I never said they didn't have the right. I have the right to criticize what they DO with that right.
When people suggest Lucas not direct Episode III, it's just a fantasy suggestion. Get over yourself.
I'm guessing you didn't see the original Mad Max. Heck, Attack Of The Lucas Clones would have been better than that one!
...and I loved the films. They were fantastic adaptations, and a lot of others agreed.
The hardcore folk who permeate USENET groups will always be unhappy, but I went in with the basic logical understanding that a movie is different from a book.
Not to mention that Tolkien himself was perfectly happy with hacking up the story to fit a movie--in a famous letter, he suggested removing Helm's Deep because it "wasn't important to the story." If Peter Jackson ever said that, fanboys would be at his throat. They never seem to realize that their beloved god Tolkien wrote it in a letter.
Tolkien was much less purist than he's been made out to be by his fans, who are really just projecting their mindsets onto him. Tolkien was revising and changing his core mythologies all the way up to the end of his life. He said he would have written Lord of the Rings differently if he was to do it over again.
Personally I have not been able to get as into the Prequels as I am into the originals. Why? I wouldn't say it was strickly a quality issue... I've read all the novels staring the original characters, buying them in harcover even, the NJO, and even the comic books, yet since the transition of the stories to mostly Prequel Era tales, I've stopped collecting the comics, I only picked up the newest novel in paperback because I had nothing else new to read, and I just can't get excited about these new, old characters. The key is nostalgia. While I can barely remember seeing Jedi in the theather (after waiting hours in line) at 9 (born in '74 for the more mathmatically challenged) the original movies and characters are rooted in my childhood. From the movies to the toys to playing starwars with legos, I spent much of my time as a kid emersed in Star Wars. That is why as an adult, I still enjoyed reading stories about the original characters. Hell, one of the first times I met a now good friend he asked me "Han or Luke"? For such a random question at the time, it took me only a second to choose because even in my 20's the movies were still there (mostly thanks to the Special Edition re-release and playing the Star Wars drinking game). I chose Luke, much to his dismay, though in that group, the numbers are pretty even. Anyway, I digress. The key here is childhood. Star Wars is a story mainly for kids. It is a good versus evil, white hat, black hat story. It is simple and fun. Just look at how much the kids today enjoy the toys and movies from the Prequel. Sure, the story's are simple, the acting too, but that is all Lucas is trying to achieve. Look back at ANH and you'll find poor acting and dialog. Same in Jedi. Only Empire really seemed to strech out of this, which is why, amoung adults now, it is the favorite. It appeals to a more grown up audience and so has kept better over the years, more so than any other of the films, even though it is actually the lowest grossing of all of them. I recall an interview with Gary Kurtz, the producer of Empire (and Star Wars, and Raiders I believe) where he described his efforts to keep Lucas away from the film as much as possible, to allow it to be darker, more grown up. Lucas' reaction to this was Jedi, without these same people that made Empire more adult. Lucas has a vision of the movies as he wants to make them and he has the power and money to do that. His vision simply isn't what we, as the now adult fans of the films, want. We want movies for us and he makes movies for kids. That isn't to say we don't sit in lines and munch on popcorn while watching a cool space battle, but just look at the kids in the theater with their toys and big smiles and you'll see where the key target for the films is. So, instead of trying to fix the movies, etc. just enjoy the stories we've got. Without Star Wars, we wouldn't have had Indiana Jones, or any number of Sci Fi films that have been out since then. As they get older, it will be interesting to see how much the movies stand up and how much the kids that are fans today stick with the films. I think that only time will tell what the lasting quality is for the Prequels and that will tell if the movies are as good as the originals in the minds of the kids today or not (as the originals have still lasted, just see what DVD is the big selling on amazon). Personally, I've seen PM a few times, AOTC once, and each of the originals dozens of times. I'd consider myself a bigtime SW geek and I'll buy the DVDs when they do come out, Greedo shooting first be damned (I can't imagine he'd remove it, though it begs to be fixed). However, I won't be watching the Prequels time and time again. That doesn't make them worse, just different, and not for me. I'll see EpIII in the theaters when it comes out, probably opening weekend, and probably only once. I'll hate the bad dialog and Jar Jar and enjoy the big fight between Obi Wan and Anakin and that is all. At least I'll be able to go home and watch the originals by then as many times and I need to.
I don't think so. I hope so. Gah.
Simple: Destroy the inner circle.
It's clear that George Lucas is intent on directing, so we can't change that. However, I think the real problem is that the core group of people that he works with are a bunch of ass-kissing yes-men who indulge his every whim.
For example: Watch some of the behind the scenes clips on the episode 1&2 DVD's. You will not find one single instance of where Rick McCallum (the producer and close friend of lucas) disagrees with George Lucas. I'm no movie expert, but after watching Project Greenlight I realize how important the role of a producer is. The producer strives to balance the artistic wishes of the director with the reality of a production schedule, the target audience, box-office desires, etc. If it works right, you end up with a better movie. For Episode 5, there were 4 producers (not counting lucas) that Lucas had to fight with. For episode 1, there was nobody around to say "George, scenes that involve farting aliens will not appeal to the mainstream audience... or anyone over the age of four."
Another example: writing. For Empire Strikes Back, Lucas shared writing credits with Lawrence Kasdan. Lawrence Kasdan. For episodes 1,2,3 lucas shares writing credits with... stars wars book authors (ick). If Kasdan were still involved, surely he would say "George, the dialog between padme and anakin makes the dialog in Rocky 4 seem profound."
At the core, I think Lucas is the same guy he was for the first 3 movies, but this time around he has nobody to ground him in reality or to call him on the stuff that doesnt work.
just my two cents.
Harry Potter has the same effect on today's children as Star Wars had on kids in the 80's. However, there is one fundamental difference between the two stories. Star Wars started off fairly serious (and occasionally dark) and then tried to become silly (Ewoks, Jar Jar). Harry Potter started off light hearted and then became darker with each passing book (including the death of a very likable character in the 4th book). The question is: will the author (and the movies for each book) maintain this trend?
This is really BS; the better the first movie in the trilogy, the harder it is to make the whole trilogy work.
One could argue that the first Star Wars movie (A New Hope) wasn't that strong (but wasn't terrible), and the next two movies really bolstered the series.
As for Episode 3, I really don't have high hopes. There's a certain inertia of suckiness here, and I doubt Lucas will totally change his mindset on film at this point. But then again, this final movie may look good in comparison to its immediate predecessors.
I'm downloading it right now.
Fire George Lucas... considering he just about owns everything there is to own about Star Wars and that he is bankrolling the film, that will be hard to do.
-Mark
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.
Terminator 2 and Aliens? Blech! Two great movies remade to look more Hollywood to be more popular for the average, moron, moviegoer. And as for Road Warrior, well Mad Max was just too cool to be outdone.
Me personally, I'd prefer the gritty, anything-can-happen feel of the originals over any one of those sequels. Seeing the originals made me feel like I was seeing movies for the first time. The sequels were all good, but unlike their predecssors it felt like they were just good exercises within the everyday movie-going experience.
Happy people make bad consumers.
Just make a 2 hour Clone Wars animated feature.
"Perhaps most amazingly, votaries of 'diversity' insist on absolute conformity." -- Tony Snow
http://www.obidala.com/obidala1.htm
Obi-Wan and Anakin are rivals for the love of Padme (Natalie). Obi-Wan romances Padme for some time. Then she dumps him, gets together with the "bad boy" Anakin, and a while later gets pregnant. Soon after Anakin turns fully to the Dark Side. Anakin turns on his master and tries to kill him and his own pregnant young wife. For the love of Padme despite her leaving him Obi-Wan saves her and her children. That's a real trilogy.
Of course, you'd have to make Anakin a little older and Obi-Wan a little younger, but it still works.
These movies are George Lucas' stories. His, not anyone elses to meddle with. You either like them, don't like them, or don't care. Mr. Lucas has the final say in anything that goes on in those movies; which is more than most producers and directors have. This is something rare in Hollywood these days; and it is usually earned by bringing BIG BUCKS into the studios.
Let's face it; some of the Star Wars movies weren't artistic successes storywise; but they did put butts in seats (again and again) in the theaters. Why? It must be magic (industrial light or not). Mr. Lucas earned his stripes, and he is not about to let any whiner critics dictate otherwise. Have you seen some movies that are the collaboration of people? Usually they turn out horribly, and end up on TV late at night.
This whole post is just a big troll, anyway. The movie doesn't need saving. It needs to be released, so we all can enjoy it. Then you can criticize all you want.
'Nuff said!
Forget the talking pie. Want to wow them? Have a talking, walking taco that sh*ts ice cream. A real winner with the 9-year-old set.
Jas
Software is like a goldfish - it'll grow to fit the size of it's bowl...
I've read through maybe half of this thread and frankly I can't stand to read any more of the horrible negativity.
Please don't anyone try to "save" the film.
I liked Episode I, and I mean really liked it, especially Jar Jar.
I didn't like Episode II but then I watched it a few times and "got it" and now I really like it too.
I expect to like Episode III as well. I don't think it will need saving.
The person behind five good Star Wars films is the same person who is making the sixth one. I want that person to make the film that he wants to make. I don't want a bunch of film critics and over-sensitive "fans" trying to take control of his vision and turn it into theirs.
How about we have "Annie" and Obi fight each other in a lava pit with surfboards?
I'm guessing you didn't see the original Mad Max.
Actually, I own it and The Road Warrior on DVD. The second one has better costumes for the gang and the post-apocalyptic setting is cool, but I like the first film better. Especially because it doesn't involve blowing up the cool car or include a small child that communicates exclusively in grunts.
"...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
10. Doing the proverbial "stepping on a rake" routine with Anakin's Lightsaber and cutting himself in two - right up the middle.
9. Getting his tongue caught in an X-Wing during take off and getting his head ripped off.
8. Being thrown into the vacuum of space and exploding
7. Two words: Venereal Disease
6. Squished in the trash compactor from Ep IV
5. Sarlacc!
4. Obi Won just getting tired of him and, WHAM, decapitation with the lightsaber
3. Joe Pesci, for no explained reason, walks in stage and shoots him in the head.
2. Uma Thruman, for no explained reason, walks in stage and shoots him in the head.
1. Once again, for no explained reason, Jar Jar catches a foreign born bacteria that causes bleeding from the eyes, vomiting, and nightmarish diarrhea - until death!
"We shall party like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean." - HedonismBot
I beg to differ. The first 3 Star Wars films really were "masterpieces" in their own right. Other than Close Encounters of the 3rd. Kind, what other sci-fi movie of that era had anywhere near the quality?
The original Star Wars films introduced all sorts of new filming techniques and brought special effects to the next level.
Other than showcasing the "state of the art" in computer rendering of characters (the digital Yoda or Jar Jar, for example), what have the prequels offered us by comparison?
As for the storyline itself, I think the prequels have taken too much liberty with the concepts fans were originally introduced to. For example, I always had the sense that Jedis were somehow very special and not often seen in the universe. They seemed to be wise and do everything with foresight and deliberation. Hordes of Jedis running around, wacking at every robot in sight with hundreds of light-sabres everyplace ruins that whole image.
I don't deny that all of the films have been "entertaining". Certainly, I've seen much worse for my money. But there was a certain magic and nostalgia about the original 3 Star Wars films that seems to be completely lost on the preqels made to date.
I choose neither. The one that's getting made is likely to suck, and the one this guys describes is at least as bad. Just shoot me now.
Perhaps if we could all watch Episode 3 through the eyes of an 8 or ten year old, we would enjoy the experience much better.
See, that's what he was going for. He purposely directed with them with the skill of an 8 or 10 year old.
c-hack.com |
Breakfast served all day!
Are they adjusted for inflation?
Danke tres mucho, tovarishch.
They may have wrote it, but it BELONGS to us.
The sad thing is that it will never truly belong to us. Lucas must die and then 70 years must pass before we can make our own tales using his universe. We'll all be dead by then, the only people alive may have heard of this Star Wars thing.
-no broken link
What are we looking for? Go back to the theatres for Star Wars III SP1?
Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
There is no Jar Jar (*cough*) in episodes IV, V and VI.
That means that JarJar will be killed in episode 3. I'll pay to see that!
Up until now I did not think about that. Perhaps episode 3 will be the best yet.
Me-sahh don't want to die-sahh
I haven't seen it mentioned, so I will. People keep looking at the movies one by one, or even originals compared to prequals. But when Lucas made the films they were intended to be ONE long film not six normal lenght ones. They were to emulate the serials that he grew up with. So when you look at the episode one it's soul purpose in life was to introduce the characters to the audience, episode 2 shows us the environment, episode 3 three gives us the problem, episode is the search for an answer, episode five the set back and episode 6 the resolution. I mean we all took this in english class as the classic development phases of a story. Of course if you only read the first 10 pages of a book you would find it lacking. You must read the entire book to appreciate it, and you must look at the entire SW story arc to appreciate it as well. I don't see how episode 3 needs to be saved since it is doing exactly what it is supposed to do.
Lack of Kate Capshaw and Jonathan Ke Quan.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
Okay I am now officially old. I was in high school when Star Wars came out.
There was no advance publicity. We lived in the suburbs of Boston, and it was one of the first cities Star Wars was released in.
My family had gotten into watching the reruns of Star Trek on the UHF stations, and I believe by this time had seen most of the episodes and were just turning it on each day to see if either an episode we had not seen, or a "good" episode was on.
The first thing I heard about Star Wars was my Dad saying "there seems to be some rip off of Star Trek in the theatres". He had seen an ad for the movie on TV. Somewhat later I saw the same ad. My first impression was it had to be a British production, done by the Andersons of Thunderbirds and Space 1999 fame, as it certainly looked that style. Despite the fact that American Grafitti was a HUGE hit just a few years earlier and we had all gone to see it, there was no indication of a connection with the director. As I remember it, American Grafitti had just as much impact on popular culture as Jaws.
There was then an absolutley positive review in the Boston Globe for the film. Quotes I remember is that "the robots have more personality than the leads in many films" and the spectacular special effects. That convinced me that I really wanted to see the film. But I did not do much else about that.
It seems that maybe a week later that the public perception and the news reports started indicating that this was an enormous hit of unprecedented proportions. Absolutely there was talk *everywhere* about Star Wars. Though initially only a few people had seen it. The ones I knew said it was "good", though there seemed to be an envious feeling between the "seen it" and "had not seen it" people.
Finally in mid-week my Dad got everybody in the car and we drove to Boston to see it in the big 70mm theatre. Well it turned out that even then, perhaps 2.5 weeks after opening, it was impossible to get in. We instead drove around darkened Boston and looked at the LNG tanker that was tied up there (these were also a big deal, what happened to them?)
I later saw it in midday, perhaps 4 weeks after opening, by then you could buy a ticket for midday and get in. It was fun, and funny, and I was constantly aware that the whole thing seemed to be a spoof or a homage to other adventure films, especially the over-the-top violent bar where nobody thinks much of anybody being killed. Some stuff that seems obvious I missed, for instance I did not identify the big sphere as the "death star" from the title crawl. I also thought the movie was ending when they escaped the death star and was suprised by the battle at the end. Still thinking it was an Anderson production I predicted that they would blow a great deal of stuff up, I did not identify the homage to the WWII fighter movies that the battle actually was. Besides humor and adventure, Star Wars also seemed to deliver a believable universe, and that sand planet seemed to really exist, be planet-sized, and be part of a universe of thousands of such planets, and Luke really did seem to be a tiny figure and the Empire an unstoppable power. No sequel since has been able to be so believable.
Like most good geeks I saw it several times after that, maybe 5. I started to be aware of the audience reactions, such as hissing the villian, something I had never heard in a movie theatre before (or since!)
Star Wars was far bigger than any of the sequels. It was in the news every day, and the fact that it was changing the movie industry forever was obvious and talked about from the first moment!
The computer game Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic had better developed characters, dialog, and story than all the Star Wars movies combined. Clearly BioWare, the company who made the game, has a better sense of the Star Wars universe than does George Lucas himself. It's so evident that they retain the sense of wonder that Lucas himself has lost.
When we already know what happened?
Lord of the rings is a plot-based storyline (a good one too), not a character-based and has little or no character devolpment.
Don't get me wrong I loved the movies (and even more the book), I just do not think that character devolpment is one of the aspects the movies developed.
Hmm. I'm not sure about the logistics of it all, but what I do know is that it's never too late to not give a shit about Star Wars.
You know what?
You heard it here first.
The best title for the new Star Wars movie would probably be the one that's already been used: A New Hope
I saw episode IV 4 weeks after it came out (my Dad took me,
I have fond memories of it as a "father/son thing"). There was a line around the building. But there were two reasons for that:
1) the movie was popular
2) For some reason, in the Portland Oregon Metropolitan Area the movie was only in 2 theaters: Eastgate and Westgate
(I know for episodes 1 and 2 George Lucas limited release to theaters with "sufficiently wide screens" {special exception if there is no such theater within 50 miles}). Perhaps a similar restriction existed for episode 4, which is why it was limited to 2 theaters.
I don't remember seeing any ads, but I remember big word of mouth. So perhaps it was a "sleeper" because it crept by word of mouth (and long lines 4 weeks later is indicative of that).
But the rationing of theaters also prolonged the lines.
Yup, by today's standards episode 4 is primitive stuff. But I've loved every SW movie partially because episode 4 was such a breakthrough.
For similar reasons I'll always love "Space Invaders". The first videogame where they shot back at you..however primitive they did so.
I saw it on Memorial day. Not sure when it was released. I was at some friends house and they asked me if I had seen it yet as they had already seen it multiple times. When I said no, they said, WE HAVE TO GO NOW!
So we all went and stood in line for 4 hours. It was definately a hit by Memorial day.
... we didn't see the DVDs yet ...
... PETER JACKSON??!!
I have moderator points so it is difficult for me to know whether it is better to mod others or attempt to offer a meaningful view of my own. I have decided to offer my view; only you can decide if it is at all meaningful. This is a very long post so, if you're not into that, please save yourself now. I guess I have wanted to share my thoughts on this subject for a long time and am choosing this opportunity to do that. I hope someone finds it interesting.
I want to say a little about Star Wars and the movies that came after. Like a few others here, I grew up on it. I'm 39, so I was 12 when Star Wars came out in '77. I regard this as the perfect age for the original three movies; old enough to understand almost everything that was going on yet young enough to be amazed and awed by it.
Certainly, the original Star Wars was an audio-visual tour de force (no pun intended). That this is Lucas' strength is well-documented and generally uncontested. The alternative universe that Lucas presented to audiences in '77 was intoxicating; it offered a complete departure from the mundaneness of real life. Creating a movie that is as unique as the original Star Wars was in today's world is difficult, if not impossible. The Lord of the Rings movies certainly succeed in terms of the visualization aspect (and many other aspects, of course), but really don't equal in terms of the newness factor; Tolkien's Middle Earth is a generally well-known quantity to any who choose to read the books and it has been that way for decades. When Star Wars came out, it was completely new.
Some people attempt to explain Star Wars' initial and long-term success in terms of its melding of a variety of classic and modern myths. While there is certainly some incorporation of myth in the story, as there is in many modern stories (the temptation to borrow from the classics is often irresistable), I do not believe that is where it's strength comes from. I believe the enduring quality of the original movie comes from the immersiveness of the world presented and the complete uniqueness of the elements. For example, the lightsaber; Darth Vader's appearance, voice, and breathing; the faceless stormtroopers; R2-D2's beeping and chirping; etc. From the very first scene, the overhead fly-by of the star destroyer, you knew you were in a movie unlike any you had seen before. After the rebel grunts formed up to supposedly repel the impending assualt and the airlock door lights up and then explodes, with troopers emerging with blaster fire, and then Vader emerging, I couldn't help but say to myself "This is so cool." And it just went on from there. The result was a complete and unique movie-going experience.
This is part of the problem with the more-recent movies. Movies have changed a lot since 1977. As has been observed by many, this is in large part attributable to Mr. Lucas because of "Star Wars" and Mr. Spielberg because of 1975's "Jaws." The combined effect of these two movies was the introduction of the concept of the blockbuster movie. Some, including myself at times, have lamented this. Not because Star Wars or Jaws weren't good (they were very good, of course) but because Hollywood has more or less evolved into a blockbuster-producing machine.
But back to Star Wars. While it could be said that The Empire Strikes Back (TESB) failed in terms of complete uniqueness (how can a sequel not?), it succeeded completely in most other respects. The decision to employ Irvin Kershner as director in order to allow a different tone to be developed was, in hindsight, genius. I strongly believe this accounts, directly and indirectly, for most of TESB's critical success. As other posters have pointed out, character development, at least as much as can be afforded in a Star Wars-like framework, is emphasized. Like The Two Towers (the film), this center film provides some pause to set the stage for the inevitable final struggle. But TESB is, of course, much more than that. I will never forget the walker sequence my entire life. When the rebel gru
Umm did I just hear that? Get rid of Lucas!? What the hell!? Do you remember who actually MADE Star Wars what it is!? Getting rid of him would be the WORST thing to do. I mean.. I'd compare it to Bill Gates leaving Microsoft, but I know Microsoft can function without him... so I think it'd be better to compare it to John Carmack of idSoftware. Without the big dogs, the companies are nothing at all. After all, for the fanboys out there, the reason the original movies were so good was BECAUSE of Lucas. I actually LOVE the new movies.
After all, Star Wars is Star Wars.. I don't compare any of the movies, because they are all in the same series.
"Instant gratification takes too long." - Carrie Fisher
http://www.doucheawards.com
If only Bill Gates had a penny for every time Windows crashed... oh wait.. he does!
""The question "Can Episode III be saved?" begs the question of whether it needs to be saved in the first place."
I can sum it up in three words for you: Lightsaber Lava Surfing. Something tells me only Jesus can save this one, but thatt's just a hunch.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
I find you lack of faith disturbing....
The Umpires Strike Back
Attack of the Clowns
Dennis The Phantom Menace
Return of the Jetta
I've only seen episode 2 twice, so I guess I don't remember it all. But, compared to episode 1, it was awesome. I'm older, and do appreciate the politics, and the motions that caused the republic to vote themselves into the future empire was just fantastic -- and the Jedi helped!
--Jim (me)
yeah and also *cough* *cough* gun control *cough*
how bad it is, as long as Ani turns into Darth Vader noone is going to care. They should call it, "Rise of the Empire" or somesuch.
I know you are psychotic, but please make an effort.
And all this time I thought it was a glorified Industrial Light and Magic ad.
The Travelling Adventurer
Ever *read* the Princess Bride? Unlike the movie, the original William Goldman book dwells heavily on grandpa's version being an on-the-fly 'good parts' redacting of a wordy old Italian mega-novel that spends way too much time getting clever about political intrigue and stuff. Imagine a novel trying to recapture life with the Borgias or Machiavelli... or worse.
Like the ficticious original author Goldman claims to be editing down to 'good parts', and like every book from certain other Ultra-Famous writers (Stephen King), I get the impression Lucas has got so many yes-men crawling up his ass that nobody can get near enough to tell him 'no' or 'this sucks' or insist on strong editorial changes in the content. So, we're stuck with 1400 page King novels and Star Wars plots that'd make Machiavelli proud and bore anyone but Henry Kissinger.
George Lucas, pick up the nearest Clue Phone:
.. They had smaller blocks back then so the lines werent actually as long. :)
I saw it the day it came out and it was a sleeper. I saw it 3 tims in 1 day and hardly anyone was there.
Late getting in here, but the way to save it is to generate a net alternative Epi3 and have it out BEFORE Lucas' version. Rip the special effects out of the other movies and computer games and don't worry that the parts don't all look the same - focus on plot, characters, dialog, etc. Make it "open source" - anyone can get it and tweak it. There'll be a hundred stupid paradies and a dozen decent alternative plot variations by the time the "real" Epi3 comes out. Then the Epi3 footage will be pirated and edited to put a higher gloss on the best of the FanFiction movies.
Hot ewok on ewok action!
that after this film is released, no longer will we say that a creatively-bankrupt television or film series desperately atempting to salvage it's prestige with showy one-upmanship has "jumped the shark".
We will say that it has "surfed the lava".
SofaMan -- Occasionally Battling Evil With His Mighty Powers Of Indolence.
Episode III will fail because it's too much, too soon, and the power-that-be behind the project are driven by anything but good cinematic taste, discipline, and a respect for the legacy of the original story/characters.
Star Trek went through the same painful experience. When the Next Generation series came out, it was a smash, in part because sufficient time had passed since the original series, and many (although not all) of the stories were fresh, and to a certain degree paid homage to the original series characters and ideals. But then the creators of Trek got greedy, and pushed out Deep Space 9, Voyager, and Enterprise. Each evolution was lamer than the one that preceeded it. The movies suffered a similar fate. And now, Trek is a wreck. It's sad, but it's true. And that's not easy for a die-hard Trekkie to admit.
I see Star Wars going down the same path. When Episode I came out, it was a big deal, in part because it had been so long since the public had been exposed to Star Wars. Episode II, was less so. And on top of that you have the fact that the overall cinematic quality of these prequels, special effects aside, got flimsier and flimsier with each incarnation. Just like Trek.
So, whatever is driving Lucas and company to do things the way they do, I don't know. But I doubt anyone will be able to change that. I'm sure lots of Trek fans voiced their opinions, but their please fell on deaf ears. The same is true, or will be true of Star Wars. And like Trek, it's a sad, ending to what was a beautiful, well crafted work of science fiction.
Lose the whiny Anakin from episode II and replace him with someone who can act.
No Jar Jar. At all.
Less GGI and more models. They look better anyway.
Let the guy who made the Clone Wars animated
series direct the movie. He can probably
do a decent job with live action. If he
put in more of the samurai-movie action
material he had in Samurai Jack, the movie
might actually be entertaining.
anata sekai o kakumei surush ga nai deshou? Anata no susumu michi wa yoi shite arimasu.
I'm banking on the absolute predictability of G. Lucas here. Since Ep. 3 must end on a "down" note (given Ep. 4), I'm making the following open bet.
If the words "A New Hope" are said during the movie, I win $10... if not, you win.
If the words "A New Hope" are said during the last 2 minutes (not including credits) I get $15.
Any takers?
it's the fault of aging viewers with unrealistic expectations. Lucas' target is the young viewer. It just so happens a lot of us crusty old buggers are still kids at heart and somewhere between the adult and the kid in us we get confused and angry over unmet expectations.
As good as 4-7 are reputed to be, I find them continuing to approach campy-ness.
I've read a few people on this topic commenting in defense of Lucas in a very similar manner to the above comment--that we original "prequel" fans don't appreciate the newer movies because we're not kids anymore, and we're looking at the newer ones from an adult perspective. In fact, I once read a quote from Lucas himself that asserted the same thing. I think he said something to the effect of "the audience has grown up, but the movies haven't".
If what Lucas is saying is accurate, the movies have regressed somewhat instead of remaining "unchanged". As many on this topic have noted, the newer movies lack character development, depth, and the skillful writing that fosters both character development AND depth.
If the newer movies are indeed "kids' movies", they suffer in quality when compared to the earlier three "kids' movie" prequels--AND when compared to other "kids' movies" that are Ep I's and II's contemporaries. Witness: Finding Nemo, Ice Age, Shrek, and, a little earlier, The Lion King. I found these other "kids' movies" to be well-acted (especially considering that all of the voiceover talent in the movie "acted" in sound studios!), well-written, and effective for entertaining both kids and adults. Lucas's latest two offerings (and I fear his 2005 release will be more of the same) pander too much to "a kids' audience" while trying to satisfy adult tastes with the fake Padme/Anakin romance and cartoonish CGI sequences.
In our early thirties now, my husband and I did see the movies initially as kids, but rented The Empire Strikes Back shortly after watching Attack of the Clones in the theatre. Disappointed with AotC, we rented TESB and kept telling each other while the movie was playing that then Lucas "got it"--he'd captured the magic and aura of Star Wars within a wonderfully human and natural context...so much of what was seriously lacking in the latest movies.
Lucas probably had to work hard at defining the SW movies back when he was young and broke, with nothing to lose--so he took more risks and the movies ended up better for them. Now as one of the Hollywood Elite rather than one of the "mavericks" of the '70s, Lucas has grown too comfortable and lazy as a director. If he had intended TPM and AotC to be strictly "kids' movies", it doesn't seem like what he's turning out are good kids' movies.